(light music) >> Announcer: TheCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back to the Fira in Barcelona. Dave Vellante with Dave Nicholson. Lisa Martin's been here all week. John Furrier is in our Palo Alto studio, banging out all the news. Don't forget to check out siliconangle.com, thecube.net. This is day four, our last segment, winding down. MWC23, super excited to be here. Wayne Duso, friend of theCUBE, VP of engineering from products at AWS is here with Iyad Tarazi, who's the CEO of Federated Wireless. Gents, welcome. >> Good to be here. >> Nice to see you. >> I'm so stoked, Wayne, that we connected before the show. We texted, I'm like, "You're going to be there. I'm going to be there. You got to come on theCUBE." So thank you so much for making time, and thank you for bringing a customer partner, Federated Wireless. Everybody knows AWS. Iyad, tell us about Federated Wireless. >> We're a software and services company out of Arlington, Virginia, right outside of Washington, DC, and we're really focused on this new technology called Shared Spectrum and private wireless for 5G. Think of it as enterprises consuming 5G, the way they used to consume WiFi. >> Is that unrestricted spectrum, or? >> It is managed, organized, interference free, all through cloud platforms. That's how we got to know AWS. We went and got maybe about 300 products from AWS to make it work. Quite sophisticated, highly available, and pristine spectrum worth billions of dollars, but available for people like you and I, that want to build enterprises, that want to make things work. Also carriers, cable companies everybody else that needs it. It's really a new revolution for everyone. >> And that's how you, it got introduced to AWS. Was that through public sector, or just the coincidence that you're in DC >> No, I, well, yes. The center of gravity in the world for spectrum is literally Arlington. You have the DOD spectrum people, you have spectrum people from National Science Foundation, DARPA, and then you have commercial sector, and you have the FCC just an Uber ride away. So we went and found the scientists that are doing all this work, four or five of them, Virginia Tech has an office there too, for spectrum research for the Navy. Come together, let's have a party and make a new model. >> So I asked this, I'm super excited to have you on theCUBE. I sat through the keynotes on Monday. I saw Satya Nadella was in there, Thomas Kurian there was no AWS. I'm like, where's AWS? AWS is everywhere. I mean, you guys are all over the show. I'm like, "Hey, where's the number one cloud?" So you guys have made a bunch of announcements at the show. Everybody's talking about the cloud. What's going on for you guys? >> So we are everywhere, and you know, we've been coming to this show for years. But this is really a year that we can demonstrate that what we've been doing for the IT enterprise, IT people for 17 years, we're now bringing for telcos, you know? For years, we've been, 17 years to be exact, we've been bringing the cloud value proposition, whether it's, you know, cost efficiencies or innovation or scale, reliability, security and so on, to these enterprise IT folks. Now we're doing the same thing for telcos. And so whether they want to build in region, in a local zone, metro area, on-prem with an outpost, at the edge with Snow Family, or with our IoT devices. And no matter where they want to start, if they start in the cloud and they want to move to the edge, or they start in the edge and they want to bring the cloud value proposition, like, we're demonstrating all of that is happening this week. And, and very much so, we're also demonstrating that we're bringing the same type of ecosystem that we've built for enterprise IT. We're bringing that type of ecosystem to the telco companies, with CSPs, with the ISP vendors. We've seen plenty of announcements this week. You know, so on and so forth. >> So what's different, is it, the names are different? Is it really that simple, that you're just basically taking the cloud model into telco, and saying, "Hey, why do all this undifferentiated heavy lifting when we can do it for you? Don't worry about all the plumbing." Is it really that simple? I mean, that straightforward. >> Well, simple is probably not what I'd say, but we can make it straightforward. >> Conceptually. >> Conceptually, yes. Conceptually it is the same. Because if you think about, firstly, we'll just take 5G for a moment, right? The 5G folks, if you look at the architecture for 5G, it was designed to run on a cloud architecture. It was designed to be a set of services that you could partition, and run in different places, whether it's in the region or at the edge. So in many ways it is sort of that simple. And let me give you an example. Two things, the first one is we announced integrated private wireless on AWS, which allows enterprise customers to come to a portal and look at the industry solutions. They're not worried about their network, they're worried about solving a problem, right? And they can come to that portal, they can find a solution, they can find a service provider that will help them with that solution. And what they end up with is a fully validated offering that AWS telco SAS have actually put to its paces to make sure this is a real thing. And whether they get it from a telco, and, and quite frankly in that space, it's SIs such as Federated that actually help our customers deploy those in private environments. So that's an example. And then added to that, we had a second announcement, which was AWS telco network builder, which allows telcos to plan, deploy, and operate at scale telco network capabilities on the cloud, think about it this way- >> As a managed service? >> As a managed service. So think about it this way. And the same way that enterprise IT has been deploying, you know, infrastructure as code for years. Telco network builder allows the telco folks to deploy telco networks and their capabilities as code. So it's not simple, but it is pretty straightforward. We're making it more straightforward as we go. >> Jump in Dave, by the way. He can geek out if you want. >> Yeah, no, no, no, that's good, that's good, that's good. But actually, I'm going to ask an AWS question, but I'm going to ask Iyad the AWS question. So when we, when I hear the word cloud from Wayne, cloud, AWS, typically in people's minds that denotes off-premises. Out there, AWS data center. In the telecom space, yes, of course, in the private 5G space, we're talking about a little bit of a different dynamic than in the public 5G space, in terms of the physical infrastructure. But regardless at the edge, there are things that need to be physically at the edge. Do you feel that AWS is sufficiently, have they removed the H word, hybrid, from the list of bad words you're not allowed to say? 'Cause there was a point in time- >> Yeah, of course. >> Where AWS felt that their growth- >> They'll even say multicloud today, (indistinct). >> No, no, no, no, no. But there was a period of time where, rightfully so, AWS felt that the growth trajectory would be supported solely by net new things off premises. Now though, in this space, it seems like that hybrid model is critical. Do you see AWS being open to the hybrid nature of things? >> Yeah, they're, absolutely. I mean, just to explain from- we're a services company and a solutions company. So we put together solutions at the edge, a smart campus, smart agriculture, a deployment. One of our biggest deployment is a million square feet warehouse automation project with the Marine Corps. >> That's bigger than the Fira. >> Oh yeah, it's bigger, definitely bigger than, you know, a small section of here. It's actually three massive warehouses. So yes, that is the edge. What the cloud is about is that massive amount of efficiency has happened by concentrating applications in data centers. And that is programmability, that is APIs that is solutions, that is applications that can run on it, where people know how to do it. And so all that efficiency now is being ported in a box called the edge. What AWS is doing for us is bringing all the business and technical solutions they had into the edge. Some of the data may send back and forth, but that's actually a smaller piece of the value for us. By being able to bring an AWS package at the edge, we're bringing IoT applications, we're bringing high speed cameras, we're able to integrate with the 5G public network. We're able to bring in identity and devices, we're able to bring in solutions for students, embedded laptops. All of these things that you can do much much faster and cheaper if you are able to tap in the 4,000, 5,000 partners and all the applications and all the development and all the models that AWS team did. By being able to bring that efficiency to the edge why reinvent that? And then along with that, there are partners that you, that help do integration. There are development done to make it hardened, to make the data more secure, more isolated. All of these things will contribute to an edge that truly is a carbon copy of the data center. >> So Wayne, it's AWS, Regardless of where the compute, networking and storage physically live, it's AWS. Do you think that the term cloud will sort of drift away from usage? Because if, look, it's all IT, in this case it's AWS and federated IT working together. How, what's your, it's sort of a obscure question about cloud, because cloud is so integrated. >> You Got this thing about cloud, it's just IT. >> I got thing about cloud too, because- >> You and Larry Ellison. >> Because it's no, no, no, I'm, yeah, well actually there's- >> There's a lot of IT that's not cloud, just say that okay. >> Now, a lot of IT that isn't cloud, but I would say- >> But I'll (indistinct) cloud is an IT tool, and you see AWS obviously with the Snow fill in the blank line of products and outpost type stuff. Fair to say that you're, doesn't matter where it is, it could be AWS if it's on the edge, right? >> Well, you know, everybody wants to define the cloud as what it may have been when it started. But if you look at what it was when it started and what it is today, it is different. But the ability to bring the experience, the AWS experience, the services, the operational experience and all the things that Iyad had been talking about from the region all to all the way to, you know, the IoT device, if you would, that entire continuum. And it doesn't matter where you start. Like if you start in region and you need to bring your value to other places because your customers are asking you to do so, we're enabling that experience where you need to bring it. If you started at the edge, and- but you want to build cloud value, you know, whether it's again, cost efficiency, scalability, AI, ML or analytics into those capabilities, you can start at the edge with the same APIs, with the same service, the same capabilities, and you can build that value in right from the get go. You don't build this bifurcation or many separations and try to figure out how do I glue them together? There is no gluing together. So if you think of cloud as being elastic, scalable flexible, where you can drive innovation, it's the same exact model on the continuum. And you can start at either end, it's up to you as a customer. >> And I think if, the key to me is the ecosystem. I mean, if you can do for this industry what you've done for the technology- enterprise technology business from an ecosystem standpoint, you know everybody talks about flywheel, but that gives you like the massive flywheel. I don't know what the ratio is, but it used to be for every dollar spent on a VMware license, $15 is spent in the ecosystem. I've never heard similar ratios in the AWS ecosystem, but it's, I go to reinvent and I'm like, there's some dollars being- >> That's a massive ecosystem. >> (indistinct). >> And then, and another thing I'll add is Jose Maria Alvarez, who's the chairman of Telefonica, said there's three pillars of the future-ready telco, low latency, programmable networks, and he said cloud and edge. So they recognizing cloud and edge, you know, low latency means you got to put the compute and the data, the programmable infrastructure was invented by Amazon. So what's the strategy around the telco edge? >> So, you know, at the end, so those are all great points. And in fact, the programmability of the network was a big theme in the show. It was a huge theme. And if you think about the cloud, what is the cloud? It's a set of APIs against a set of resources that you use in whatever way is appropriate for what you're trying to accomplish. The network, the telco network becomes a resource. And it could be described as a resource. We, I talked about, you know, network as in code, right? It's same infrastructure in code, it's telco infrastructure as code. And that code, that infrastructure, is programmable. So this is really, really important. And in how you build the ecosystem around that is no different than how we built the ecosystem around traditional IT abstractions. In fact, we feel that really the ecosystem is the killer app for 5G. You know, the killer app for 4G, data of sorts, right? We started using data beyond simple SMS messages. So what's the killer app for 5G? It's building this ecosystem, which includes the CSPs, the ISVs, all of the partners that we bring to the table that can drive greater value. It's not just about cost efficiency. You know, you can't save your way to success, right? At some point you need to generate greater value for your customers, which gives you better business outcomes, 'cause you can monetize them, right? The ecosystem is going to allow everybody to monetize 5G. >> 5G is like the dot connector of all that. And then developers come in on top and create new capabilities >> And how different is that than, you know, the original smartphones? >> Yeah, you're right. So what do you guys think of ChatGPT? (indistinct) to Amazon? Amazon turned the data center into an API. It's like we're visioning this world, and I want to ask that technologist, like, where it's turning resources into human language interfaces. You know, when you see that, you play with ChatGPT at all, or I know you guys got your own. >> So I won't speak directly to ChatGPT. >> No, don't speak from- >> But if you think about- >> Generative AI. >> Yeah generative AI is important. And, and we are, and we have been for years, in this space. Now you've been talking to AWS for a long time, and we often don't talk about things we don't have yet. We don't talk about things that we haven't brought to market yet. And so, you know, you'll often hear us talk about something, you know, a year from now where others may have been talking about it three years earlier, right? We will be talking about this space when we feel it's appropriate for our customers and our partners. >> You have talked about it a little bit, Adam Selipsky went on an interview with myself and John Furrier in October said you watch, you know, large language models are going to be enormous and I know you guys have some stuff that you're working on there. >> It's, I'll say it's exciting. >> Yeah, I mean- >> Well proof point is, Siri is an idiot compared to Alexa. (group laughs) So I trust one entity to come up with something smart. >> I have conversations with Alexa and Siri, and I won't judge either one. >> You don't need, you could be objective on that one. I definitely have a preference. >> Are the problems you guys solving in this space, you know, what's unique about 'em? What are they, can we, sort of, take some examples here (indistinct). >> Sure, the main theme is that the enterprise is taking control. They want to have their own networks. They want to focus on specific applications, and they want to build them with a skeleton crew. The one IT person in a warehouse want to be able to do it all. So what's unique about them is that they're now are a lot of automation on robotics, especially in warehousing environment agriculture. There simply aren't enough people in these industries, and that required precision. And so you need all that integration to make it work. People also want to build these networks as they want to control it. They want to figure out how do we actually pick this team and migrate it. Maybe just do the front of the house first. Maybe it's a security team that monitor the building, maybe later on upgrade things that use to open doors and close doors and collect maintenance data. So that ability to pick what you want to do from a new processors is really important. And then you're also seeing a lot of public-private network interconnection. That's probably the undercurrent of this show that haven't been talked about. When people say private networks, they're also talking about something called neutral host, which means I'm going to build my own network, but I want it to work, my Verizon (indistinct) need to work. There's been so much progress, it's not done yet. So much progress about this bring my own network concept, and then make sure that I'm now interoperating with the public network, but it's my domain. I can create air gaps, I can create whatever security and policy around it. That is probably the power of 5G. Now take all of these tiny networks, big networks, put them all in one ecosystem. Call it the Amazon marketplace, call it the Amazon ecosystem, that's 5G. It's going to be tremendous future. >> What does the future look like? We're going to, we just determined we're going to be orchestrating the network through human language, okay? (group laughs) But seriously, what's your vision for the future here? You know, both connectivity and cloud are on on a continuum. It's, they've been on a continuum forever. They're going to continue to be on a continuum. That being said, those continuums are coming together, right? They're coming together to bring greater value to a greater set of customers, and frankly all of us. So, you know, the future is now like, you know, this conference is the future, and if you look at what's going on, it's about the acceleration of the future, right? What we announced this week is really the acceleration of listening to customers for the last handful of years. And, we're going to continue to do that. We're going to continue to bring greater value in the form of solutions. And that's what I want to pick up on from the prior question. It's not about the network, it's not about the cloud, it's about the solutions that we can provide the customers where they are, right? And if they're on their mobile phone or they're in their factory floor, you know, they're looking to accelerate their business. They're looking to accelerate their value. They're looking to create greater safety for their employees. That's what we can do with these technologies. So in fact, when we came out with, you know, our announcement for integrated private wireless, right? It really was about industry solutions. It really isn't about, you know, the cloud or the network. It's about how you can leverage those technologies, that continuum, to deliver you value. >> You know, it's interesting you say that, 'cause again, when we were interviewing Adam Selipsky, everybody, you know, all journalists analysts want to know, how's Adam Selipsky going to be different from Andy Jassy, what's the, what's he going to do to Amazon to change? And he said, listen, the real answer is Amazon has changed. If Andy Jassy were here, we'd be doing all, you know, pretty much the same things. Your point about 17 years ago, the cloud was S3, right, and EC2. Now it's got to evolve to be solutions. 'Cause if that's all you're selling, is the bespoke services, then you know, the future is not as bright as the past has been. And so I think it's key to look for what are those outcomes or solutions that customers require and how you're going to meet 'em. And there's a lot of challenges. >> You continue to build value on the value that you've brought, and you don't lose sight of why that value is important. You carry that value proposition up the stack, but the- what you're delivering, as you said, becomes maybe a bigger or or different. >> And you are getting more solution oriented. I mean, you're not hardcore solutions yet, but we're seeing more and more of that. And that seems to be a trend. We've even seen in the database world, making things easier, connecting things. Not really an abstraction layer, which is sort of antithetical to your philosophy, but it creates a similar outcome in terms of simplicity. Yeah, you're smiling 'cause you guys always have a different angle, you know? >> Yeah, we've had this conversation. >> It's right, it's, Jassy used to say it's okay to be misunderstood. >> That's Right. For a long time. >> Yeah, right, guys, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE. I'm so glad we could make this happen. >> It's always good. Thank you. >> Thank you so much. >> All right, Dave Nicholson, for Lisa Martin, Dave Vellante, John Furrier in the Palo Alto studio. We're here at the Fira, wrapping out MWC23. Keep it right there, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(inspirational music) >> theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (uplifting electronic music) (crowd chattering in background) >> Hi everybody. We're back at the Fira in Barcelona. Winding up our four day wall-to-wall coverage of MWC23 theCUBE has been thrilled to cover the telco transformation. Dave Vellante with Dave Nicholson. Really excited to have NTT on. Shahid Ahmed is the Group EVP of New Ventures and Innovation at NTT in from Chicago. Welcome to Barcelona. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you for having me over. >> So, really interesting title. You have, you know, people might not know NTT you know, huge Japan telco but a lot of other businesses, explain your business. >> So we do a lot of things. Most of us are known for our Docomo business in Japan. We have one of the largest wireless cellular carriers in the world. We serve most of Japan. Outside of Japan, we are B2B systems, integration, professional services company. So we offer managed services. We have data centers, we have undersea cables. We offer all kinds of outsourcing services. So we're a big company. >> So there's a narrative out there that says, you know, 5G, it's a lot of hype, not a lot of adoption. Nobody's ever going to make money at 5G. You have a different point of view, I understand. You're like leaning into 5G and you've actually got some traction there. Explain that. >> So 5G can be viewed from two lenses. One is just you and I using our cell phones and we get 5G coverage over it. And the other one is for businesses to use 5G, and we call that private 5G or enterprise grade 5G. Two very separate distinct things, but it is 5G in the end. Now the big debate here in Europe and US is how to monetize 5G. As a consumer, you and I are not going to pay extra for 5G. I mean, I haven't. I just expect the carrier to offer faster, cheaper services. And so would I pay extra? Not really. I just want a reliable network from my carrier. >> Paid up for the good camera though, didn't you? >> I did. (Dave and Dave laughing) >> I'm waiting for four cameras now. >> So the carriers are in this little bit of a pickle at the moment because they've just spent billions of dollars, not only on spectrum but the infrastructure needed to upgrade to 5G, yet nobody's willing to pay extra for that 5G service. >> Oh, right. >> So what do they do? And one idea is to look at enterprises, companies, industrial companies, manufacturing companies who want to build their own 5G networks to support their own use cases. And these use cases could be anything from automating the surveyor belt to cameras with 5G in it to AGVs. These are little carts running around warehouses picking up products and goods, but they have to be connected all the time. Wifi doesn't work all the time there. And so those businesses are willing to pay for 5G. So your question is, is there a business case for 5G? Yes. I don't think it's in the consumer side. I think it's in the business side. And that's where NTT is finding success. >> So you said, you know, how they going to make money, right? You very well described the telco dilemma. We heard earlier this week, you know, well, we could tax the OTT vendors, like Netflix of course shot back and said, "Well, we spent a lot of money on content. We're driving a lot of value. Why don't you help us pay for the content development?" Which is incredibly expensive. I think I heard we're going to tax the developers for API calls on the network. I'm not sure how well that's going to work out. Look at Twitter, you know, we'll see. And then yeah, there's the B2B piece. What's your take on, we heard the Orange CEO say, "We need help." You know, maybe implying we're going to tax the OTT vendors, but we're for net neutrality, which seems like it's completely counter-posed. What's your take on, you know, fair share in the network? >> Look, we've seen this debate unfold in the US for the last 10 years. >> Yeah. >> Tom Wheeler, the FCC chairman started that debate and he made great progress and open internet and net neutrality. The thing is that if you create a lane, a tollway, where some companies have to pay toll and others don't have to, you create an environment where the innovation could be stifled. Content providers may not appear on the scene anymore. And with everything happening around AI, we may see that backfire. So creating a toll for rich companies to be able to pay that toll and get on a faster speed internet, that may work some places may backfire in others. >> It's, you know, you're bringing up a great point. It's one of those sort of unintended consequences. You got to be be careful because the little guy gets crushed in that environment, and then what? Right? Then you stifle innovation. So, okay, so you're a fan of net neutrality. You think the balance that the US model, for a change, maybe the US got it right instead of like GDPR, who sort of informed the US on privacy, maybe the opposite on net neutrality. >> I think so. I mean, look, the way the US, particularly the FCC and the FTC has mandated these rules and regulation. I think it's a nice balance. FTC is all looking at big tech at the moment, but- >> Lena Khan wants to break up big tech. I mean for, you know, you big tech, boom, break 'em up, right? So, but that's, you know- >> That's a whole different story. >> Yeah. Right. We could talk about that too, if you want. >> Right. But I think that we have a balanced approach, a measured approach. Asking the content providers or the developers to pay for your innovative creative application that's on your phone, you know, that's asking for too much in my opinion. >> You know, I think you're right though. Government did do a good job with net neutrality in the US and, I mean, I'm just going to go my high horse for a second, so forgive me. >> Go for it. >> Market forces have always done a better job at adjudicating, you know, competition. Now, if a company's a monopoly, in my view they should be, you know, regulated, or at least penalized. Yeah, but generally speaking, you know the attack on big tech, I think is perhaps misplaced. I sat through, and the reason it's relevant to Mobile World Congress or MWC, is I sat through a Nokia presentation this week and they were talking about Bell Labs when United States broke up, you know, the US telcos, >> Yeah. >> Bell Labs was a gem in the US and now it's owned by Nokia. >> Yeah. >> Right? And so you got to be careful about, you know what you wish for with breaking up big tech. You got AI, you've got, you know, competition with China- >> Yeah, but the upside to breaking up Ma Bell was not just the baby Bells and maybe the stranded orphan asset of Bell Labs, but I would argue it led to innovation. I'm old enough to remember- >> I would say it made the US less competitive. >> I know. >> You were in junior high school, but I remember as an adult, having a rotary dial phone and having to pay for that access, and there was no such- >> Yeah, but they all came back together. The baby Bells are all, they got all acquired. And the cable company, it was no different. So I don't know, do you have a perspective of this? Because you know this better than I do. >> Well, I think look at Nokia, just they announced a whole new branding strategy and new brand. >> I like the brand. >> Yeah. And- >> It looks cool. >> But guess what? It's B2B oriented. >> (laughs) Yeah. >> It's no longer consumer, >> Right, yeah. >> because they felt that Nokia brand phone was sort of misleading towards a lot of business to business work that they do. And so they've oriented themselves to B2B. Look, my point is, the carriers and the service providers, network operators, and look, I'm a network operator, too, in Japan. We need to innovate ourselves. Nobody's stopping us from coming up with a content strategy. Nobody's stopping a carrier from building a interesting, new, over-the-top app. In fact, we have better control over that because we are closer to the customer. We need to innovate, we need to be more creative. I don't think taxing the little developer that's building a very innovative application is going to help in the long run. >> NTT Japan, what do they have a content play? I, sorry, I'm not familiar with it. Are they strong in content, or competitive like Netflix-like, or? >> We have relationships with them, and you remember i-mode? >> Yeah. Oh yeah, sure. >> Remember in the old days. I mean, that was a big hit. >> Yeah, yeah, you're right. >> Right? I mean, that was actually the original app marketplace. >> Right. >> And the application store. So, of course we've evolved from that and we should, and this is an evolution and we should look at it more positively instead of looking at ways to regulate it. We should let it prosper and let it see where- >> But why do you think that telcos generally have failed at content? I mean, AT&T is sort of the exception that proves the rule. I mean, they got some great properties, obviously, CNN and HBO, but generally it's viewed as a challenging asset and others have had to diversify or, you know, sell the assets. Why do you think that telcos have had such trouble there? >> Well, Comcast owns also a lot of content. >> Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. >> And I think, I think that is definitely a strategy that should be explored here in Europe. And I think that has been underexplored. I, in my opinion, I believe that every large carrier must have some sort of content strategy at some point, or else you are a pipe. >> Yeah. You lose touch with a customer. >> Yeah. And by the way, being a dump pipe is okay. >> No, it's a lucrative business. >> It's a good business. You just have to focus. And if you start to do a lot of ancillary things around it then you start to see the margins erode. But if you just focus on being a pipe, I think that's a very good business and it's very lucrative. Everybody wants bandwidth. There's insatiable demand for bandwidth all the time. >> Enjoy the monopoly, I say. >> Yeah, well, capital is like an organism in and of itself. It's going to seek a place where it can insert itself and grow. Do you think that the questions around fair share right now are having people wait in the wings to see what's going to happen? Because especially if I'm on the small end of creating content, creating services, and there's possibly a death blow to my fixed costs that could be coming down the line, I'm going to hold back and wait. Do you think that the answer is let's solve this sooner than later? What are your thoughts? >> I think in Europe the opinion has been always to go after the big tech. I mean, we've seen a lot of moves either through antitrust, or other means. >> Or the guillotine! >> That's right. (all chuckle) A guillotine. Yes. And I've heard those directly. I think, look, in the end, EU has to decide what's right for their constituents, the countries they operate, and the economy. Frankly, with where the economy is, you got recession, inflation pressures, a war, and who knows what else might come down the pipe. I would be very careful in messing with this equilibrium in this economy. Until at least we have gone through this inflation and recessionary pressure and see what happens. >> I, again, I think I come back to markets, ultimately, will adjudicate. I think what we're seeing with chatGPT is like a Netscape moment in some ways. And I can't predict what's going to happen, but I can predict that it's going to change the world. And there's going to be new disruptors that come about. That just, I don't think Amazon, Google, Facebook, Apple are going to rule the world forever. They're just, I guarantee they're not, you know. They'll make it through. But there's going to be some new companies. I think it might be open AI, might not be. Give us a plug for NTT at the show. What do you guys got going here? Really appreciate you coming on. >> Thank you. So, you know, we're showing off our private 5G network for enterprises, for businesses. We see this as a huge opportunities. If you look around here you've got Rohde & Schwarz, that's the industrial company. You got Airbus here. All the big industrial companies are here. Automotive companies and private 5G. 5G inside a factory, inside a hospital, a warehouse, a mining operation. That's where the dollars are. >> Is it a meaningful business for you today? >> It is. We just started this business only a couple of years ago. We're seeing amazing growth and I think there's a lot of good opportunities there. >> Shahid Ahmed, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE. It was great to have you. Really a pleasure. >> Thanks for having me over. Great questions. >> Oh, you're welcome. All right. For David Nicholson, Dave Vellante. We'll be back, right after this short break, from the Fira in Barcelona, MWC23. You're watching theCUBE. (uplifting electronic music)

>> theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Lisa Martin: Good afternoon everyone. theCUBE live in Barcelona, Spain at MWC23. Lisa Martin with Dave Nicholson. Day three of our wall-to-wall coverage of four days of CUBE content. I know, it's amazing. We're going to have a great conversation next with DISH and Dell, talking about the value of automation and telecom for 5G. Please welcome Song Toh, Senior Director of Product Management Infrastructure Automation at Dell. And Sidd Chenumolu, VP of Technology Development at DISH. Guys, great to have you on theCUBE. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you, it's a pleasure. >> So let's go ahead and start with you. We know that DISH is developing its own open cloud native 5G network from the ground up. Talk to us about before you were working with Dell, what the situation was like and why you brought Dell in to help drive the innovation. >> Ah, that's a good question. So, three years ago we started the journey, and one thing that was very clear to us is that we want to work with the partners who are going to be the leaders in this space. And it was very clear we are going to be in the cloud side- we are going to be in hybrid cloud, we are going to have our own data centers. Everything that we built is going to replicate a cloud model. 'Cause it was very, like we said, what is 5G? Fundamentally, if you think about 5G, right? Everyone says people talk about speeds. Okay, get it. But it's also about vertical industries. It's about customization of a network, application driven network. That's the way I call it, because if you walk around the floor right now, everyone's talking about monetization of 5G, everyone keeps doing enterprise. So you put two and two together, what do you get? That means you have to work with the leaders who have been serving enterprises forever, who know the enterprises' pain, they know all the problem statements. So we said, "okay, let's see who's out there and who can help us." And then obviously, Dell comes to the picture. So we had a good conversation, there was an alignment in where Dell wanted to go long-term, so we saw synergies. So we had a vision, we needed their help. They wanted to get into this space too. So there was an agreement, let's do it together. And it's been a good partnership since then. >> What were some of the challenges that you had at that time? Going, "we've got some challenges here, some risks, we want to move DISH forward and automate." Talk about some of those challenges that helped you understand, "Yeah, Dell's the right partner for this." >> Oh, first is when we started this, right? I'll be honest, I don't think we anticipated the complexity. We didn't know what we didn't know. So initially it was learning from Dell, who was more like teaching us, "this is what you're going to see, this is how it's going to look like". And then we started bringing the telco aspects on top of it. So it was not like, "I'm going to build a 5G". We said, "no, Dell, tell me what does the data center look like? Tell me the day-to-day challenges. How do you bring a server in? How the rack looks like, what are the connectivity?" So, learning, then you bring the telco as an application, it was not like a telco first. It was like a software first, infrastructure second, now you bring in the telco part of it. So, I mean, challenges I would say, right? Everything was new, pretty much across the board for us. It was not just one thing. We were doing Open RAN, which was a brand new cloud native, was completely new. 5G standalone was new. No one had done that before, and (mumbles) was hybrid cloud. So I think we were on a stool sitting on the, with the four legs, all were wobbly. (laughs) We made it. So, automation was definitely the key. We knew we had to go at a scale, because we are in FCC deployment, we are meeting like- we will be at covering 230 million pops by June of this year. So, aggressive timelines- >> Dave Nicholson: Wait, say that again. How many, so say that ag- how many? >> 230 million. >> And, pops being points of presence? >> No, sorry, population. U. S.- >> Oh, population. Okay, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Okay, okay. >> Okay. I'm sorry, I'm- >> So, very aggressive buildout for us. >> Wow. >> And automation has to be the key for it, because we just cannot- first is, we cannot scale a company. We are a startup. This wireless is a startup. That's how we started with a handful of people. We obviously hired a lot of people since then, but we said, "we will never be at the scale of the existing CSPs today." We can't. Time is not on our side, and we don't want to be at that scale anyway, 'cause we want to be nimble, move fast. So what do you need? Automation. Automation at every layer. And it's a journey. Never stops. >> No, it doesn't stop. >> Oh yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah, she's- >> Go ahead and get a question in. I don't want to hog. >> So when most people hear DISH, they think of streaming content, they think of alternative to cable provider. >> Sidd: Yeah. >> In that space. But just clarify for us all of the things that DISH is involved with today, and what DISH aspires to be involved with as we move forward. >> Good question. We want to be in the connectivity space. We want to connect everything. That's our goal, our mission statement. We started with the satellite, since then we moved on to the IPTV Sling, which is a leader. So we are not afraid to take risks, right? So what we own- we own satellites, we know content delivery very well. I think we are done there for many years. We agreed to that. Now we said, "now we understand wireless". What we want to do is, we want to deliver the data to the customers, and whether it could be videos, it could be audio data, like voice, anything, or it could be a machine. We just want to be in the connectivity space of connecting everything, and based on- you look around, right? It's all about connectivity. Everything requires connectivity. It's all about data monetization, and we want to be there in every aspect of it. >> Connectivity is almost the lifeblood these days of everything that we do, right? >> Sidd: Yep. >> Song: Indeed. >> And of every industry. Song, talk a little bit about the DISH Wireless use case. How some of their challenges in telco really maybe helped even Dell accelerate its presence in telco. >> Absolutely, right. I think one thing that Sidd mentioned, right, 230 million populations, but what does that translate to in terms of infrastructure deployment? 'Cause he said it's a startup. They started from not a whole lot in terms of coverage. So, in terms of 5G deployment, whether it's virtualized or open RAN, there needs to be distributed infrastructure that covers the entire United States, right? A certain percentage of the population is still a huge amount of coverage. So deploy tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of servers around the country, get them set up, get 'em configured, and maintain and monitor and meter all of that. We help DISH to essentially roll that out, get it going, and then they deploy their RAN workload on top. I mean, that's a very significant undertaking. We were very proud to be able to offer our Bare Metal Orchestrator to facilitate that, but ultimately their success is their success. We are there to help, right? We are partnered, and we- happy to definitely be able to say we got to a point that we are happy, you know, in claims of success there. >> Well, that's why we selected Dell. >> Thank you. (chuckles) >> Let's unpack a little bit of some of the successes, some of the outcomes that you've achieved so far, working with Dell. >> Let me give an example. Today we have an ability to upgrade, update, even swap a RAN vendor overnight. Entire market, unheard of overnight. Give me hours, I'll do the entire thing for you from scratch. We can instantiate entire data center racks remotely in a matter of minutes. Cannot do that without automation, and with the help- >> Lisa Martin: Couldn't do it before. >> We have curated an extraordinary, what you call orchestration mechanism of finely tuned data sets and pipelines. It's like a machine. It keeps spinning. It's very good. And again, not something that happened overnight. Took us several months to get there with a lot of our partners, and Dell was there. >> Song: Right. >> I'd be curious to get your perspectives, each of you, on some of the buzz that was going on around the show where the telecom, "plumbing providers"- >> Sidd: Yep. >> have complained about the content streaming through, and maybe they need to charge more for access, and Netflix hit back and said, "well, hold on a minute. You wouldn't have anything to deliver to your customers if it weren't for the content we are producing. Maybe we need licensing fees from you." >> Song: (chuckles) >> What is your view on that, in terms of this whole over the top conversation? DISH seems sort of, kind of in a hybrid position there. >> Well, it's a very complex question. I think everyone is struggling with it, so I'm not sure if I have the right answer for it. We are definitely unique because we own the content too. We want to offer- we probably may offer our own content over the wireless service. There is a pros and cons. I mean, purely from a, as a M&O service provider, it's a lot of effort and cost for us to deliver huge amount of bandwidth. But again, the networks are being built to handle huge capacity. So if you don't have video, what do we do? That's also a realistic question. I think there is a mechanism where the cost and the value both have to be shared. So that it's a win-win for everyone. It's not lopsided to one. And said, "you carry most of the cost", and I'm transparent, it doesn't work that way long term. And especially given the 5G side, with all the slicing capabilities and ability to offer QoS, better quality of experience, I think there's a value to be created here. >> If you look at the infrastructure necessary to drive all of these things- >> Right. >> We've seen, just go back to our own consumer experience with the internet. We've gone from text to images to video. >> Song: Right. >> To high definition video. >> Sidd: Yeah. >> To, is 8K video absurd? Do we really need to be able to handle that? What are the things that need to be supported as we move forward? Is it that we scale out into this world of billions and billions of things that are connected? Or are there these much bigger, fatter pipelines for things like 8K video or it a combination of the two? What is Dell thinking of when it thinks of the infrastructure that it builds and how you customize that- >> Song: Right. >> to address those things? What's on the horizon? >> Dave, I think that's a very good question, right? Certainly communication service providers like DISH has built out the capacity to handle the customers that they want to serve. But there's another aspect of this I think I'd like to add on top of the question you posed, it's not about say, 10, say a thousand streams of 8K. I would need to be able to handle that. I think the present challenge right now is really, say there's a sports stadium that you need to activate so that, not about everyone filming that sports game, it's about, "Hey, I got to tell my, whoever- I got a 10 seconds video clip that I got to share with my friends." It's also not about copyright. It's more about- >> Dave Nicholson: (laughs) >> can you as a provider- >> The NFL is listening. >> Exactly. Can you as a provider handle that service? Because otherwise your customers say, "oh, I got into the sports stadium, every time I could not even text my daughter." >> Dave Nicholson: Yeah. >> So, how do you then scale up the infrastructure as needed, the bandwidth as needed, and scale back down when it's not? Maybe, because the infrastructure can potentially be repurposed for a different workload too. That requires automation, right? From bottom to top, all the way, infrastructure - all the way up to the workload. And that's I think a question that people are starting to ask. I'm not sure. I mean, still you guys have thought about that too as a- >> I mean, instant gratification is the new thing, right? Everyone wants instant response, everyone feedback, everything. So connectivity is given. I do think there is a space for both billions of devices and the 8K and probably 16K in the future. It's going to happen in the technology walls. That's why I like, say, the 5G, and especially the way we architect our own network. We call it network of networks. I'm not designing a network that is only for one monolithic application or one stack only. We are actually programmable network, because I know network A is for 8K. Network B is for IOT, network C is for regular, network D is for something else. And the list can keeps on growing. I don't think we can stifle innovation at any level and said, "well you can't do this because we are not ready." World is going to move too fast. Technology is too fast for all of us. >> But do you have to prioritize? >> If there is a business for- it's all top-down driven, not much of a technology driven. If there's a business, someone said there's a value to be made, it's prioritized. >> What's your - Sidd, we'll stick with you, your observations. This is day three of MWC 23. Lot of talk here on disaggregation. A lot of talk about open RAN, a lot of talk about private 5G wireless networks, but also some controversy. You brought up the Netflix controversy. >> Dave: Yep. >> What are some of the messages that you've heard so far from this event - and then, Song, we'll ask you the same question - that excite you about the direction that the industry's going and where DISH Wireless stands within it? >> Yeah. I mean, I didn't have a chance to walk the floor, but for wherever I have been in the last two and a half days, one thing that stood out is people are no longer talking about gigabits capacity anymore. They're talking about monetization of the network. Everyone is talking APIs now. >> Lisa Martin: Yeah. >> That's the buzzword. If I said monetization, API- I got a beautiful network not tell me how to make money off it and how do I work with each other? It's no longer about "I want to own it all." What can I do to partner with A, partner with B? How can we all grow together? I think that's the theme that I see this year compared to the previous years, where it was always about like, "hey, build the best 5G network with the high speeds, big radios." I don't even see radios, by the way. >> Lisa Martin: (chuckles) >> Interesting. Yeah. So the actual, it's almost fascinating when you toil in obscurity to build these critical components and then people ignore you. So I feel for the radio people. >> Song: (laughs) Being a long-term infrastructure guy, what have you been seeing here that's interesting? >> Well, a few things that I feel quite excited about from the conversation I've had. One is, on the private mobility side, Lisa, as you said, I'm seeing certainly customers, partners, and even in the booth talking about what the use cases are, right? Rather than, "Hey, here's a cool technology." But actually, people talking about use cases now. And, with the communication service providers and the operators, I'm hearing - of course, I mean, Sidd's doesn't have that problem because it's building whole new, >> (chuckles) >> but there are other providers that are saying, "Hey, we acknowledge that we need to transform and we are on the way too", rather than saying, "can I not do it and still, you know, live with the modern world." So I feel that we always need to be ready to change, because the world, the market, and all other factors will cause us to either change or really to change. And I think we are changing. Open system is becoming more of a expected, you know, future. It's just how do we get there, right? What do we need to learn as we get there? And we're happy to provide the support as a partner, the automation technology, and even the solutions to enable that, from Dell's perspective. >> So DISH in particular? DISH Wireless. >> Yep. >> Despite the fact that everyone's heard of DISH. >> Song: Yeah. >> DISH has been around for a long time. Where you sit within DISH Wireless, you described it as a startup. You don't feel encumbered by a lot of the legacy things that maybe some other providers do. Is that a fair statement or are you having to navigate that? We call it ambidextrous management >> (laughs) >> in the CTO world, where it's like, got to keep the lights on, got to keep the existing revenue flowing, also got to innovate. How do you blend the two? Is that a challenge? >> Well, probably not a challenge for me. I'm on the wireless technology and architecture side, so I get to do the cool stuff. >> Dave Nicholson: Okay. >> Don't have to worry about day to day operations, some complexity or revenue. Someone else is managing that complex part. They let me play with my toys. >> Well played, well played. >> Guys, it's been great having you on the program talking about what DISH Wireless is doing with Dell. Thanks to Dell. We're going to be watching this space to see how you continue to innovate. Thank you so much for joining us on the program. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you. >> Our pleasure. >> For our guests and for Dave Nicholson. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE live from MWC 23. Stick around. Our next guest joins Dave and me in just a minute. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

>> theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies, creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Hey everyone, guys and gals, good to see you. It's theCUBE live in Barcelona at MWC23. Lisa Martin here with Dave Vellante on day one of four days of wall to wall CUBE coverage. Dave, today is ecosystem day. We've had some great conversations about why the open ecosystem is so important and some of the key players in it. >> Well and I'm in search of disruptors, so I'm looking for, okay, who are the network operators that are going to actually lean into the future and drive it and challenge the existing incumbents. We'll talk about that today. >> And we're going to be talking about that next. We've got one of our alumni back with us. Satish Iyer is here, the Vice President of Emerging Services at Dell. Great to have you back on the program. >> Thank you. >> Richard Leitao is with us as well, the Vice President of National Development at DISH Network. Welcome. >> Pleasure to be here. >> So, lots of, this is day one, the theme is velocity. I feel like the day has gone by so quickly. But Dell and DISH have partnered together on a multi-year initiative to build your nationwide cloud-native 5G network that's going to cover a lot of the US. Talk a little bit about that partnership, we'll get both of your perspectives. Richard, we'll start with you. >> Sure. So thank you again for having me. So DISH had the opportunity of, of going through this experience, of innovating once more. For the ones that know DISH, DISH is a company that was founded in 1980 by an innovator, a disruptor. Of course, in the course of the next 40 years, we had the opportunities of even disrupting ourselves. We launched our first satellite TV service. We then launched the first streaming, video streaming platform, disrupting our own satellite business. And since 2008, we have been acquiring Spectrum and, you know, Spectrum, the most valuable asset of a wireless operator. We felt that this was the right opportunity, having 5G , having O-RAN, and we decided to go full in in a greenfield project building national network, 5G O-RAN cloud-based network, one of a kind network in in the US and, and most of all, using O-RAN, it's very important to us, what, what it can bring and it can bring to DISH but to the entire ecosystem of, of this sector in the US. >> Satish, talk a little bit about the partnership from Dell's perspective and some of the unique advantages that Dell is delivering to DISH. >> Oh absolutely. Again, like Richard was saying, I mean the telecom network is being desegregated as we speak. You know, companies like DISH and everybody else is looking at what are the best-in-class technologies we can bring to the table. I would like to say that, you know, the cloud is coming to the telco world, right? A lot of us have seen the tremendous transformation in the cloud world in the last few years. Now, you know, DISH is a big enterprise company. As you know, you know, we are pretty strong within the cloud space and enterprise space. So what we try to work with DISH is Dell, is to bring to DISH is, you know, that notion of cloud scale and the cloud ecosystem into telecom, right? By means best-in-class infrastructure products, best-in-class software products, to allow somebody like DISH to innovate and incre, you know, basically expand and build their O-RAN network. So it's absolutely important for us as we build and get into the telecom space to work with somebody like DISH who's also disrupting as a carrier in that space. >> So it's early days for Open RAN but you've decided, "okay, we're all in". >> Yeah. >> Right? So (chuckling) you burn the bridge, as they say, "go for it". (Lisa chuckles) So when you talk to most people, they say, "okay, it's, it's, it's, it's immature." It's got to be able to get to the levels of, of the, the the hardened stack reliability. But of course it brings the advantage of flexibility and speed. Are you optimizing for one or the other right now? How are you dealing with that balance? >> Well, it, it's, it's not mature in the sense that most of operators that think about it, they have a legacy network. And in order to go full in on the O-RAN side, they need to scrap a lot of things that they have and honestly, they don't want, and it doesn't make sense. So being a greenfield operator, give us that advantage. Give us the advantage and, and desegregation, it's all about chip sets, boxes and software and the chip sets part and what I like the most in desegregation is the time of innovation. The time that we can use new chip sets coming into the market, the size of the boxes that we are using. Obviously our footprint onsite is much smaller than traditional carriers or proprietary systems. So all of that Dell has been critical in supporting us. Supporting us having the best chip sets, having the smallest footprint and, you know, the software, the cycle of innovation is much faster than in proprietary systems. So ma-, it's maturing. I'm glad to say that probably two years ago here O-RAN was more like a, a pilot type of technology. It is not, we are live, we are live for more than 30 million customers in the US and, you know, the performance levels are very similar to traditional networks. >> So you don't just buy a nationwide cloud-native 5G network out of the box, you got to- >> No, you don't. >> You got to build it. So I'm curious as to what Dell's role is in that, in that build out. >> Right? >> How and how, I'm really curious how to, how you would grade Dell but we'll get there. >> Yeah, I mean, look, yes, you don't. So I think the, the, the first and foremost is again, as, as we, Dell, comes into the telco space, one of the things we have to look at is to understand what makes Dell better in the enterprise space, right? It is the best-in-class infrastructure. It is the software ties together. As you talk about desegregated networks, it's important to understand lot of these piece parts have to still be touched together, right? So I think the integration and integration aspects becomes really key which is really Dell is very good at. So one of the things we are working really closely with DISH Tech, you know Richard was alluding to, is bringing all, not just bringing all the software and hardware assets together, but how do you continuously innovate and keep fixing things faster, right? So in the old days, traditional ways, you have a software stack, it takes you 18 months, 20 months to actually get an upgrade done. Here we have continuously CI/CD pipelines where if you want to a change done within, within a week's or within a few days, where we can actually go and test and make sure these things work. So I think a lot of the best enterprise software practices, cloud practices, combined with whatever needs for telco, actually is what makes it very unique. >> I, I saw that this started out as an FCC compliance initiative that turned into a partnership, obviously a very successful one. Richard, talk about what DISH saw in Dell that really made it the right choice, knowing you have choices, you have options. >> You know, we saw the capability to execute, but we also saw the capability to innovate. From an execution level, at the end of the day, like we were talking, we started the project in the middle of COVID, and we had the first mandate to cover 20% of the US population by June, 2022. And now we have a second one, 70% of US population by June 2023. At the beginning of the project, it was all about availability of materials, logistics, how to distribute, how to transport material. So Dell has a world-class supply chain, we felt that working with Dell through all these challenges made things easier. So from an execution perspective, whenever you need to build a network and you, you are building thousands of sites, you need to have materials, you need to distribute them and you need to install them. Dell helped us across the board. Our expectations obviously will change. We have a network, we want to cooperate with Dell in many other areas. We want to, you know, leverage on Dell ability to reach the enterprise market, to have private 5G offers. So hopefully this collaboration will endure in time and, and, you know, will change and evolve in time. >> And it's a big bet. I mean, it's not like a single, it's not like a little transaction that you guys are doing. I feel like, you know Michael Dell and Eric Carlson had dinner and they said, "okay, we're going to, we're going to partner up and this is going to be a multi-decade partnership. You had to be transparent, "Hey, we're new at this, even though we're really good at enterprise tech and so you're going to, obviously if you take a chance on us, here's what we promise you." >> Absolutely. >> And vice versa, you guys had to say, "all right, hey, we're willing to roll the dice because we're trying to change the world." So what was that dynamic like? I mean, how did, I'm curious as to this has to be a lot of different levels, engineering, senior management, board level discussions. >> You know, we felt a huge buy-in from Dell on the Open RAN concept. >> Right. >> Yeah, okay. >> And, you know, edge computing and, and the ability to get us the best product and evolve the best product, Intel is is critical in all these offerings. Intel has a great relationship with Dell. Dell helped us. Dell sponsored the DISH program and some of these suppliers, So it was definitely good to have their support and the buy-in on the O-RAN concept. We felt it from day one and we felt secure on that. >> Yeah, I mean, I, to add to that, I mean, you know DISH was very instrumental in driving, dictating and executing to our roadmap, right? They're one of the key, I mean, since they are out there and they're really turning in a way, it's important that a customer who's actually at the out front of innovation, helps us drive our own roadmap. So to Richard's point, a lot of our product roadmaps, in terms of what have you built and all that, was based on what DISH thinks as going to be market-based requirements. They also helped us a lot in the integration aspects. Like I said, one of the things about open desegregation of these networks is there is a lot of integration because, you know, there is, it's not a one, one monolithic pipe smokestack anymore. You are picking up best-in-class pieces, bits and pieces and tying it together. And it's important to understand when you tie it together things will go wrong, right? So there is a lot of learnings from an integration standpoint. Supportability, deployment, one of the things Richard talked about was supply chain, you know. Other Dell's ability to, lot of these deployments, a lot of these configs in the factory, right, in the second part. So especially a lot of these partnerships started during COVID time and as you all know, you know what we went through two years ago. So we had to make sure that lot of these things are done in one place and a factory, and not done in the field because we couldn't do a lot of these things. So there's a lot of, lot of experimentation, lot of, lot, lot of innovation on that. >> So it's 2030, what's this look like? What's the vision if we can work backwards from there? Well, a, a great network coverage to the entire country, bringing new services to enterprises, to verticals, bringing value add to customers and, you know, technology cycles, they are lasting much less than they were. I cannot even say what will happen in three years. 2030, I mean, I know, I know somebody has a vision for 2030. That's another thing. (everyone laughs) >> A lot of it is "build it and they will come", right? >> Yeah. >> I mean it really is right? You put that network in place and then innovation happens on top. That's the best thing. >> Yeah. And look and and I think the biggest people think about Open RAN in terms of cost, which, you know, you, you have some things in cost that you appreciate in Open RAN. The footprint, the the possibility to diversify suppliers and and have more competition. But for me, Open RAN is about innovation and cycles of innovation. I used to work for Nokia, I used to work for Alcatel. I knew from the generation of an idea to an execution and having a feature delivered to a certain customer, it, it took months. We want innovation to take weeks. We are innovating at the speed, speed of the cloud. We are cooperating with new players, players on the cloud and, and we expect things to happen much faster than they traditionally happen on the telecom sector. >> Move fast and break things. >> Well, we also expect that speed- >> Break and fix. (everyone laughs) >> Yeah, thank you for that. >> But speaking of speed, your customers expect that, right? They expect the service to be up 24/7. They expect to be able to access whatever content they want, whenever they want from wherever they are. So comment, Richard, in our last few minutes here of, of how the, the Dell partnership is helping DISH to really deliver the excellent customer experience that your customers just expect that you're going to deliver. >> Well by setting up the system, number one, we are leveraging on a number of services. And I mentioned the supply chain, but in reality Dell made much more than that for our 20% milestone and is supporting our 70% milestone by installing, testing, verifying most of our data center equipment. We found that this offering from Dell was really addressing some of our needs because, you know, we, we believe they know a lot in this area and they, they can provide the best advice and the best speed to market in, in terms of having this equipment. Because we are working on a time clock, we need to have this done as soon as possible. You know for the future, I hope that they can help us in driving more services. I hope they can bring all the infrastructure that we need to offer to our customers. And, you know, we keep committed to O-RAN. O-RAN is really important. We are not compromising that. And I think the future is bright for both of us. >> Yeah, and Dell learns from the experience. >> Exactly. >> Absolutely. >> There's got to be a catalyst for expanding your roadmap and vision in telecom. >> Yeah, I mean, like you said, I mean, you asked a 2030 question and I think that, you know, know six, seven years from now I think people should look at what DISH and Dell and say they were the trailblazers of make, bringing Open RAN to the market and making 5G a reality. I mean, you talk about 5G, but every 5G is on a different stages. I do think that this combination, this partnership has the best chance to be the first ones to actually have a truly Open RAN network to be successful in commercial. >> Awesome guys. Trailblazers, Dell and DISH. Well, we look forward to watching this story unfold. Thank you- >> Thank you. >> for joining Dave and me on the program today talking about what you're doing together. We appreciate it. >> Thanks for having us. >> Our pleasure. >> Thank you, bye. >> For our guests and for Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE live from Barcelona at MWC23. We'll be back after a short break, so we'll see you soon.

>>Okay. And welcome back to the cubes live coverage here in San Francisco, California for 80 us summit 2022 Amazon web services summit 2020 New York city is coming up in the summer will be there. Check us out the cube.net. Our next guest here is Jim long. The CEO of dig also known as local. BTV a very interesting AWS customer doing some really progressive things around video and, uh, challenging the status quo in code cutting and all kinds of broadcast models. Jim, welcome to the cube. Great to see you. >>Thank you, John. Great to be here. Okay. >>So first of all, before we get into some of the disrupt option, take a minute to explain what is dig and local BTV. >>Uh, dig is all about, uh, providing, uh, edge video networking for broadcast television, basically modernizing local television and hopefully extending it to hyper local content like high schools and community government and community channels and things like that. So essentially free bringing, using the internet as an antenna to bring broadcast television to your phone, your laptop you're connected TVs. >>So if I understand it correctly, if I UN and I look at the, the materials of your site, you basically go into each market, Metro areas like New York Philly bay area, grab the tee signal out of the air. >>Yep. >>Local TV, and then open that up to everyone. Who's got, um, an >>Correct. And, uh, what, we've, where we're essentially building a hybrid network with AWS. Uh, I like to say we got all the smart and account stuff, you know, in the cloud at AWS. And we have all the dumb, fast stuff in the actual TV market. We have servers and transcoding there we work with, uh, of course, um, uh, AWS on that centrally as well. But basically that hybrid cloud allows us to be the fastest simplest and lowest cost way to get a local video. Any type could be an antenna or an IP stream to a local house. So we're, so are the local pickup and delivery people. We're not building a brand, we're not building content. We're delivering the local content to the local views. You >>Like the pipes. >>We are, we're essentially an infrastructure company. Um, we're right at that wonderful intersection of the, uh, the infrastructure and the content where I always like to play. >>I like, I love the store. I think the cost of that nature, how you're using Amazon, it's really impressive. Um, what are some of the cool things you're doing on AWS that you think's notable? >>Well, of course the, the standard issue stuff where you want to store all your data in the cloud. Right? So we, uh, and we use a quick site to, to get to that. And obviously we're using S3 and we're using media tailor, which we really like, which is cuz we first actual company on the planet. I believe that's inserting digital ads, impression based ads into local broadcast streams. So that's, that's fun because the advertisers, they like the fact that they could still do traditional TV buys and they could spice it up with digital impressions based, but ads on us. Yeah. And, and we're adding to it a real fun thing called clip it, which is user clipping. It's an app that's been running on AWS for years. It's had over half a million plays in social media. Yeah. We're combining those together and, and AWS makes it very simple to do that. >>Well, I've been using your app on my Firestick and uh, download local BTV on the app store. Um, I gotta say the calendar's awesome. And the performance is 10 times better than, than some of the other streaming apps because the other performance they crash all the time. The calendar's weird. So congratulations. Clearly you're running the cloud technology. I gotta ask you what's going on in the market? Netflix missed their earnings. The stock was down big time. Um, obviously competition what's up going on with Netflix? >>Well, what's, it's a big shift. >>What does it mean for the streaming market? >>Well, what it means is, is, is a consumer choice. It's really the golden age of consumer choice. Uh, originally back when I was a kid, it was all antenna TV. We didn't even have DBRS right. And then, uh, the cable companies and the satellite companies, the phone companies came in and took over and all of a sudden everyone started paying for TV for just linear TV. Right? And then the next thing, you know, streaming comes around, uh, Netflix shows up for, for VOD or, or SVOD, they call it cuz it's payt TV and uh, and the whole, uh, that ecosystem starts to melt down. And now you have a consumer choice market where you can pay, pay for VAD or pay for, for linear. And everyone does linear and everyone does VAD or you can use free TV. Now we correctly guessed that free TV was gonna have a huge comeback. You know, know what is it about free even obviously gen Z smarter than us boomers. They love free too. Uh, targeted advertising makes the ads less, uh, painful or less of a distraction. Uh, so we knew that free ad supported TV was gonna happen. Lots of stuff happened. And then, then the, uh, major media companies started doing their own subscription apps. Right? They're all cool. >>We like paramount plus >>Paramount plus Disney pluses, PN peacock, uh, time Warner's doing something. I mean, it's all cool, but you know, people only have so much of a big pocketbook. So what it's doing is pay TV has now become much more complicated, but also you, you know, you gotta trade off. So you saw it with Netflix, right? Yeah. Netflix is suffering from there's too much pay TV. So where are you gonna put your money on Comcast? On YouTube TV paramount plus Netflix. >>Yeah. I mean, I love the free thing. I gotta bring up something. I wanna get your reaction to a company called low cast went under, they got sued out of their deal. They were the free TV. Are you guys have issues like them? What's the cast most people don't know got was, was >>Doing same. So we started before low cast and we're uh, what we would call a permissions based system, legal system. The broadcast Mar industry, uh, is, uh, is the wild wild west. I mean, I like to say antenna TV is a direct to consumer. The antenna is a direct to consumer device and it's controlled by the channel. People it's not controlled by a platform like Comcast, right? It's not controlled by a stick. >>When you say channel, do you mean like CBS or >>Yeah, CBS or the local Korean religious cooking channel or, uh, Spanish channels or local independent to television, which is really a national treasure for us. The United States really should be making sure that local content, local channels, uh, do well local businesses, you know, with targeted advertising, Janes nail salon can, can now advertise just in San Jose and not the entire San Francisco TV market. Um, so you ha you have, have all that going on and we recognize, you know, that, that local content, but you have to have permission from the channel stuff. It's not easy because you got channels on stations. You have syndicators, it's hard to keep track of. And sometimes you, you, uh, you, you know, you have to shift things around, but, uh, low cast, uh, like another kind before it just went hog wild, illegal, trying to use a loophole, uh, didn't quite work out for 'em and, uh, >>You see, they have put out of business by the networks, the names, the big names. Yes. Content people, >>Correct. I mean the big, the big guys, but I mean, because they weren't following the rules, um, >>The rules, meaning license, the content, right. >>Well correct. Or yes, >>Basically they, they were stealing the content in the eyes of the, >>Well, there is, there is, it is a little of, a bit of a gray area between the FCC and the copyright laws that Congress made. So, um, there are people certainly out there that think there is a path there, low cast, didn't find it. We're not trying to find it. Uh, we just want to get all the free TV, uh, the bottom line. And you've seen fast channels explode recently, Pluto, uh, Samsung TV. >>And what does that all mean? >>Well, what it means is people love free TV and the best free TV out there is your local TV. So putting that on the internet and those comp, but the media companies, they have trouble with this new stuff. What's, >>What's your >>They're overthinking it. What's >>Some of this CBS, NBC, all these big guys. >>Well, those guys have a little less trouble than the people that actually, uh, they're affiliates, right? So there's 210 TV markets and the, uh, your major networks, you know, they have their own stations. And in a bit, you know, in about 39% of the population, which is about 15 to 20, is it >>Cultural or is a system system problem? >>No, it's a, it's a problem of all the, the media companies are just having trouble moving towards the new technology and, and they're, I think they're siloing it. >>So why not? You gonna let 'em die. Are you trying to do deals with em? >>Oh no, no, absolutely. For us, if we don't make money, unless stations make money, we want local TV to, to flourish. It is local TV is Neilson, just report yesterday, you know, uh, that, uh, local TV is growing. We're taking advantage of that. And I think the station groups are having a little trouble realizing that they have the original, fast channels before Pluto, before Tubi did it in movies. And, and, and what >>Are people understanding in the, in the industry? I know NA's coming up a show. Yeah, >>That's right. >>National associated of broadcasters. What's going on in that industry right now. And you're, if you get to put it down the top three problems that are opportunities to be solved, what would they be? >>Well, I think, you know, I think the, the, the, the last, the, the best one that's left is what we're doing. I have to say it, uh, I think it's worth billions. >>You free TV over the air free and stream >>O TV. Oh yeah. Over the air TV that also works with the internet, right. Public internet connected to public television stations so that everybody, including homeless people, et cetera, that, you know, they don't have a TV, they don't have an antenna, they can't afford comp. They got an >>IPhone though. >>They an iPhone. For sure. And, and so it's, it's, uh, it's a wonderful thing. It's, you know, our national broadcasting and I don't think the station groups or the major networks are taking advantage of it they're as much as they should. Yeah. And, and I don't think, you know, obviously NBC and CBS with their new apps, they're sort of done with that. They did mergers, they got, they got the virtual pay guys. I mean, YouTube TV off the ground, the only thing left is suck another shitload of good, uh, eyeballs and, and advertising. >>Well, I mean, yeah, I think that, that, and what you said earlier around subscription fatigue, I mean, nobody wants to have 20 subscriptions. >>Well, that brings up a whole new other war. That's going on that, thank goodness. We're not part of it's the platforms versus the cable companies. Right. Versus whatever. Right. Everyone's trying to be your open garden or your closed garden. They're trying to get your subscriptions in bundle self bundling it's. But I mean, it's wonderful for consumers, if you can navigate through it. Uh, we wanna, we think we'll have one of the gems in any of that everyone's want local TV. And so we'll supply that we're already doing that. We're supplying it to a couple companies, uh, free cast as a company, uh, app, a universal streaming, you know, manager, your all, all your, uh, streaming, a streaming aggregation, put your paid stuff in, put your free stuff in. They do that. And, and as, as does Roku try trying to do that fire TV, Xfinity's trying to do it. So it's all, it's a new war for the platform and hopefully we'll be on everyone. >>Well, you've been in this industry for a long time, you know, the streaming market, you know, the TV market. Um, so it's, it's good. I think it's a new battle, the shift's happening. Um, what should people know about dig local? BTV what are some of your goals for the next year or two? What are you trying to do? >>Well, what we're really trying to do is make sure that local, uh, local television thrives so that it can support wider communities. It could support hyper local content. So if you're, if you're, and we love the old paradigm and channel change, right? Forget, you know, every other app has all these boxes going by on different rows and stuff. And, and yeah, you can search and find stuff, but there's nothing like just changing channels, whether a commercial's on or, or you, you wanna see what else is on. You know, you're gonna go from local television and maybe all of a sudden, you'll see the local high school play over on another part of the, of the spectrum. And, and what we're trying to do is get those communities together. And the local high school people come over and find the local, you know, uh, Spanish, uh, Nova channel or something like that. >>So local is the new hot. >>It is. Absolutely. And by the way, it's where this high CPMs are gonna go. And the more targeted you get >>Ad revenue, >>I mean, that's for us is, is, is our number one, re we have a number of revenue streams, but targeted ads are really great for local, right? And, and so we're, we're gonna make an announce. We've >>Lost that we've lost that local, I've seen local things that local Palo Alto paper, for instance, just shut down this local sports high school coverage, our youth sports, because they don't budget, right? There's no TV community channels, like some Comcast throwaway channel. Um, we lost, we, we lo we're losing >>Local. No, I think that's a real national shame. And so I think if we can strengthen local television, I think it'll strengthen all local media. So we expect to help local radio and local newspapers. That's a bigger part of the vision. Uh, but I it's gonna happen. There's >>An education angle here too. >>There is an education angle because the bottom line is you can use linear television as a way to augment. Uh, we have a really exciting project going on in New York, uh, uh, with, uh, some of the housing, uh, projects, uh, in Harlem and, and, and the Bronx, uh, their I idea is to have the, the homework channel and they can, and literally when you have a, and both swiping and everything you can have, I mean, literally you can have a hundred schools that, that have things well, >>We know zoom schooling sucks. I mean, that didn't work. So I think you're gonna see a lot of augmentation, right. >>Amazon. >>I was just talking to some people here, AI training, machine learning, training, all here could be online in linear format. >>Yeah. And exactly. And then I think about the linear format is it's discovery television, and you can also, um, you know, you can also record it. Yeah. Right. If you see a program and you want to record it, you sit >>Record. So final minute we have left. I want to just get your thoughts on this one thing and, and ask your question. Are you looking for content? Are you, I outreach at the content providers who, >>Well, we're, we're PRI our primary mission is to get more channel local channels on which really means station groups and independence. We have a number, I mean, basically 50% of the channels in any market. When we move into it are like, this is a no-brainer. I want more eyeballs. We're Nielsen, uh, RA, uh, rated mean we support. And so we, >>How many markets are you in right now? >>We're in 21 now. And we hope to be in, uh, over 50 by the end of the year, covering more than half the United States. >>So, all right, Jim, thanks for coming on the queue. Really appreciate it. >>My pleasure. Good luck >>Recognition. Very disruptive disrupting media, um, combination of over the air TV, local with I internet. Obviously we love that with a cube. We want a cube channel anywhere possible. I'm John furry host of the queue here at AWS summit. Highing all the big trends and technologies in cloud and media back with more coverage after this short break,

>>Hello, I'm CR howdy shell president at advisors, uh, excited to be participating in GreenLake day Han joined by valued long-term 15 year customer Srini Vanga he's vice president information technology at wr grace and company Srini. Thanks for joining me today, especially in light of the $570 million acquisition completed yesterday. Congratulations on that. And can you tell us a little bit about yourself, your organization, and a bit about the relationship you've had with advising? >>Sure. Uh, thank you, Sierra, let me start with grace. Grace is a $2 billion global specialty chemical manufacturing company. It's got two main business segments, catalyst technologies and materials technologies. Our FCC catalyst technologies help our petrochemical refining customers in producing, uh, mainly transportation fuel and petrochemical feedstock. So, and our materials technology business delivers silica based materials to our customers to improve their products and processes in, uh, segments like coatings, uh, consumer industrial and, uh, pharma businesses. Um, as a CRE, as you just mentioned, uh, we recently closed it in acquisition and acquired the fine chemicals business of, uh, Alvamar, which will increase our business share of a pharma business. So coming back to me, um, uh, regarding myself, I've been with the grays for 22 years. It's been a long time guys. So I I've been mainly in the SAP technology area and took over the role of the, uh, Weiss president and head of it for years back. Um, and I've been working with the advisors for almost 15 years now, and it's been an excellent strategic partnerships. >>Well, thank you. And we definitely appreciate the business and, uh, the relationship. So, uh, we'll, we'll move on to the next question. So what are, what are the most important factors for you to be successful in the business? Obviously, growth is going to be key with what you just, just accomplished with the acquisition, but, uh, one of the most important factors for you to be successful >>Since, uh, since grace is a specialty chemical manufacturing company, uh, it's very important for us to understand and, uh, sometimes even anticipate, uh, uh, exact customer requirements and then, uh, quickly create that a special material which helps improve our customer's products and processes. That's the most important thing for us. Um, the company depends on me and my team, uh, to provide value to our business and, uh, helping them make decisions quicker and in real time and, uh, adaptable, uh, to the ever changing market, the business niche this year. So that's the most important factor. >>Great. It is obviously playing a, a bigger role as, as you mean. Good. So what are some of the most, I don't like to use the word pain points, but I'll call them business challenges, you know, in your industry. >>Um, so building on my previous point, right? So chemical manufacturing is not new and it has a wall or the years and, and with numerous mergers and acquisitions along the way, uh, the systems and processes are not always, uh, harmonized are standardized. So keeping it moving together and in the same direction has, uh, has always been a challenge, right? And, and added to that COVID has affected most of the sector. And, uh, and our under our industry is no exception, especially in the refining sector. Uh, we need to be able to provide, uh, rapid customization to our customers, uh, which means our business, uh, which needs a flexible computing power, uh, to process and analyze huge amounts of these, the material properties data, and, and allow them to come up with products, uh, back to, we can go to market faster than our competitors. Yeah. >>Right. Got it. And obviously that's key, you touched on this briefly, but I'd really like to hear more about how your business has changed in the last year. You mentioned COVID so love to hear how things have changed and what you can share >>So specifically about COVID right. So about 50% of our employees have been working remotely since March of last year. Um, unless unlike other industries, uh, we cannot go a hundred percent remote, uh, because we have chemical plants to run and chemical labs to operate. So we'll always be at this 50%. So technology has enabled us to do that. We have done a lot of things remotely, which we never thought possible. Um, um, we did work two on factory visits for our pharma customers, our remote plant startup for our poly properly in, uh, uh, customers. Um, and also did virtual, um, annual customer conferences. Uh, in the end, some of this will go back to pre COVID days, but most of this is going to stay and stay here for good. >>Well, congratulations on that, because I think the whole working remote, I think we're all seeing the challenges, but obviously it looks like you've seized the challenge and it's going to be more of a business as usual going forward. Yeah. Well, congratulations. That's key obviously to the business also going forward and with that, with a hybrid model, I mean, many customers, the hybrid clouds with journey, will you share with us at wr grace and company journey for the hybrid cloud? >>Sure. So, yeah. Um, when I took over this role, uh, four years back, uh, I made a decision that I no longer want to be in this data center business. Uh, we need to focus on our core strength and core competencies as a chemical company. And, uh, I wanted it to be spending more time helping our, our business, uh, manufactured and sell our products safely and efficiently. So working with our strategic partner, uh, advisors and HPE, we moved ahead with, uh, with GreenLake, which just solved mainly my problem of this, uh, getting out of the data center business. Uh, we now have a private on-prem cloud solution that is elastic fully scalable and is, uh, based on the consumption model based model, right? So that's very similar to what these hyperscale cloud providers have. And I love it. This, the consumption based model is what, what is great about the GreenLake that I have signed up, um, with, with GreenLake, I can, uh, scale up quickly and I will, I can grow as my business needs grow. And, um, it makes, it makes this a perfect cloud solution for grace. >>That's great to hear it, especially since we are a big part of, and I'd have to agree, you know, with, with the words, getting out of the data center business, we're hearing it more and more as we, as we hear meet with more customers. So, and with that in a hybrid model, there are a lot of decisions to be made on what goes into public cloud. What should, what should remain on prem. And obviously this is a decision you had to make. This can be crucial when it comes down to business critical applications. How did you and your team approached this when you were looking at, at your SAP environment? >>Great question to CR, but for me, the answer is simple. Uh, as I told you previously, like I did not want to be in the business of data center. I also did not want to be in the business of developing custom applications. We retired most of our custom built applications in, uh, procurement sales, HR, and replaced them with the SAS providers like Ariba conquer Salesforce and success factors, which are all hosted in the cloud. Uh, these companies, uh, spend billions of dollars in R and D and come up with solutions that are state of the art in this, uh, in these processes that I talked to you about. Right? So, so unless I have a special need, which I don't in the finance procurement and HR, I don't need this custom built applications, which is the reason I went to these SAS based applications. All of which are hosted in the cloud. >>That leaves me with, uh, my mission critical application, which is SAP and there's peripherals, right. For business reasons. I wanted this on-prem. Um, so I chose the HPE GreenLake, uh, to host this on-prem in my own data center at, at our headquarters in Columbia, Maryland, but with the Dr. Capability in the cloud. Um, so that I don't have to have a colo facility, which I have right now from IDR. So I use both on-prem and cloud hybrid cloud for myself, uh, for, for grace. So I have very few custom built applications on prem. Um, and as these become more standardized, I certainly look at taking them to the cloud or even keeping them on prem. Um, so we wanted that inherent flexibility. So yeah, that's the reason we went to this model. >>That's great. Cause that leads in right into the next question I had for you many customers in this past year, they're all looking for the flexibility, right. And how important it is. Can you share with us the value you see from HPE GreenLake and, and how that provided flexibility for wr grace and company specifically to workloads that can easily scale up or down? >>The main thing that helped me make the decision for GreenLake is the GreenLake is sized with this 20% buffer that we can scale to in minutes, um, that would usually take a weeks or even months to deploy. We know how that power and the flexibility in mere minutes, uh, when not when our business comes to us with a new requirement, either for a new applications or new data analytics capability that needs computing power, I don't have to wait for two or three months to give them that capability. So I, it can be done right away with this 20% of flexibility. >>That's great. And agreed. So this is a newer question with, with the event of your, um, acquisition, how do you see that added flexibility when you're looking to integrate a new company, >>This, this is an exact, you, you hit it on the head, uh, CR that's true. If I were to, if I had to bring this on with this additional computing power, I would have had to place an order, wait for the codes, come back and do all that with this 30%, I can easily fit in a new acquisition. >>Well, that's great. And that, that, that really helps for the short and long run. I'm sure that helps the business. Yes. So last two questions really is. Can you talk about what really stood out for advisors with advice, et cetera, about advisors, you know, basically why advise X and what will you saw the benefit of working with us >>Advisor? you have a great team CR so, so I've been, I've been, I mean, I've been working with, I told you write for 15 years and, um, I've been working with the same account manager for most of these years and the team as well. Right? So, so the account manager and the team knows how I, and what I expect of the team, right. So I can call them 24, seven anytime day or night. And they, they always pick up my phone and assist me in that time of the need. That's the most important thing. That's the reason that I I've been working with adviser, extended advice, Excel always proposed good solutions to me, either with HP or with other vendors, I can always trust them. Um, we have developed a strong strategic relationship. And, um, more importantly, like I told you that there is this trust that is difficult to find, and, um, it has continued to endure. Um, and, um, I deal with a lot of it vendors and I can confidently say that advisors X is at the top of the list from the customer service perspectives here. >>Well, thank you. And listen, that means a lot. I know we've had some bumps, we, and I've been on the phone for some, some of the tougher times, but, you know, you get through those to the, to the good times like now, and, uh, really, really excited about what we're doing with GreenLake. So, and, and most importantly, appreciate that relationship. And I'm sure our on Akuna is going to love the fact that you mentioned the relationship. So thank you for that. You know, finally, you know, any, any parting words of wisdom, brother, customers, as they consider HPE GreenLake, >>Um, like a standard earlier, uh, you must ask yourself, do you really want to be in this data center business, uh, ask yourself what your core businesses and what your core competencies are and focus your business acumen to deliver those that value to your business. Um, I'm sure he will come to the same conclusion as we did, um, and take a good look at GreenLake fund itself, flexibility. Um, you be very pleased and happy with the value the solution provides to your business. >>I would have to agree and what we're seeing with the best of breed solutions you can bring forward with GreenLake. Uh, we're excited about it too. And look forward to doing more work with you and customers like wr grace and company. I just want to say thank you for the time as importantly, thank you for the business. Really do appreciate it and appreciate the, uh, the kind words. Thanks, and, uh, have a great day. >>Thank you. See ya.

>>From around the globe. It's the queue cover >>Space and cyber security >>Symposium 2020 hosted by Cal poly. >>Hello and welcome to the space and cybersecurity symposium 2020 hosted by Cal poly and the cube I'm chilling for a, your host. We have a great session here. Space, cyber security, the department of defense perspective. We have bond Google hall, director of C four ISR directorate office of the undersecretary of defense for acquisition and sustainment for the DOD and Chris Henson, technical director space and weapons, cybersecurity solutions for the national security agency. Gentlemen, thank you for taking the time for this awesome session. Thank you, John. Thank you. So we're gonna talk about the perspective of the DOD relative to space cybersecurity, a lot, going on congestion, contention, freedom, evolution innovation. So Paul, I'd like to have you start with your opening statement on how you see the space cybersecurity perspective, Don, thanks for the intro. Really appreciate it. First, let me give my thanks to Cal poly for a convening, the space and cybersecurity symposium this year, you know, and despite the pandemic, the organization and the content delivery spreading impressive, I really foot stomping. >>What can possibly be done with a number of these virtual platforms? This has been awesome. Thanks for the opportunity. I also want to recognize my colleague, Chris Nissen from NSA was actually assigned to our staff that LSD, but he brings both policy and technical perspective in this whole area. So I think you'll, you'll find his commentary, uh, and positions on things very refreshing or for today's seminar. Now space cyber security is a pretty interesting terminology for us all. Uh, cyber security means protecting against cyber threats and it's really more than just computers here on earth, right? Uh, space is the newest war fighting domain, and cybersecurity's perhaps even more of a challenge in this domain that and others. Uh, I'm sure it'll turn journal Thompson and major journals Shaw discuss the criticality of this new dorm space force. It's the newest military service in the earlier sessions and they're at the risk of repeating what they already addressed. >>Let me start by talking about what space means to DOD and what we're doing directly from my vantage point as part of the acquisition and sustainment arm of the Pentagon. Uh, what I want to share with you today is how the current space strategy ties into the national defense strategy and supports the department's operational objectives. As the director of CFRI SAR. I have come to understand how the integration of CFRI Sarcic. Billy is a powerful asset to enhance the lethality of the joint war fighter. Secretary Lord, our boss, the sec, the undersecretary for acquisition and sustainment is diligent in her pursuit to adapt and modernize acquisition processes, to influence the strategy and to focus our efforts domain are to make our objectives a reality. I think first and foremost, we are building a more lethal force. This joint force will project low Valley and custom contested environments and across all domains through an operationally integrated and resiliency for ISR infrastructure. >>We are also called debating our alliances, deepening interoperability, which is very important in a future fight and collab, collaboratively planning with those partner with us in the fight most significantly for our work in acquisition and sustainment, we continue to optimize the department for greater performance and affordability through reform of the acquisition process. Now space is our newest war fighting domain. And while it is indeed unique, it shares many common traits with the others land, air and sea all are important to the defense of the U S in conflict. No doubt about this. They will be contested and they must be defended. One domain will not win future conflicts in a joint operation in a future fight in the future conflict. They must all succeed. I see three areas being key to a DOD strategic success in space, one, developing our whole of government approach in close partnership with the private sector and our allies to prioritizing our investments in resiliency, innovation, and adaptive operations, and third responding rapidly and effectively to leverage emerging technologies and seize opportunities to advance your strengths, partnerships and alliances. >>Let me emphasize that space is increasingly congested and tested and demanded as essential delete Valley operational effectiveness and the security of our nation. Now the commercialization of space offers a broad set of investments in satellite technology, potential opportunities to leverage those investments and pathways to develop cost efficient space architecture, where the department and the nation. It's funny, there's a new race, a race for space. If you will, between commercial companies buying for dominance of space. Now the joint staff within DOD is currently building an operational construct to employ and engage as a unified force, coordinated across all domains. We call it the joint, all domain command and control. It is the framework that is under development to allow us to conduct integrated operations in the future. The objective of Jesse too is to provide the war fighter access to the decision making information while providing mission assurance of the information and resilience of the underlying terrestrial air in space networks that support them operationally. >>six to maintain seamless integration, adaptation, and employment of our capability. To sense signal connect, transmit, process control, direct, and deliver lethal capabilities against the enemy. We gain a strategic advantage through the integration of these capabilities across all the domains, by providing balance bowel space, awareness, horse protection, and weapons controlled and deployment capabilities. Now successfully any ratings, the systems and capabilities will provide our war fighters overwhelming superiority on the battlefield environment, challenged by near peer adversaries, as well as non state actors in space. The character of its employment is changing, driven by increasing demands, not just by DOD, but by the commercial sector as well. You know, more and more, uh, we see greater use of small satellite systems to address a myriad of emerging questions, ubiquitous communications, awareness, sensor diversity, and many more. Uh, as I said before, the commercial world is pioneering high rate production of small satellites in our efforts to deploy hundreds, if not thousands of nodes space X, Darlene constellation is one example. >>Another one is Amazon's Kiper, uh, Kuyper just received FCC approval to deploy like over 3000 of these different notes. While a number of these companies continue to grow. Some have struggled. They some pointed as one web, uh, nevertheless, the appetite remains strong and DOD is taking advantage of these advances to support our missions. We are currently exploring how to better integrate the DOD activities involving small satellites under the small satellite coordinating activity, scholarly call it. We want to ensure collaboration and interoperability to maximize efficiency in acquisition and operation. When we started this activity on over a year and a half ago, we documented over 70 plus separate small, small sat programs within DOD. And now we've developed a very vibrant community of interest surrounding a small satellites. Now, part of the work we have identified nine focus areas for further development. These are common areas to all systems and by continuing to expand on these, our plan is they enable a standard of practice that can be applied across all of the domains. >>This includes lawn services, ground processing distribution, and of course, a topic of interest to the symposium space security and Chris we'll, we'll talk more about that being the Houston expert, uh, in this area. Uh, one challenge that we can definitely start working on today is workforce development. Cybersecurity's unique as it straddles STEM and security and policy, the trade craft is different. And unfortunately I've seen estimates recently, so suggesting a workforce gap in the next several years, much like the STEM fields, uh, during the next session, I am a part of a panel with precedent, Armstrong, Cal poly, and Steve Jake's the founder of the national security space association to address workforce development. But for this panel, I'll look forward to having further dialogue surrounding space, opera security with Chris and John. Thank you, John >>Bob, thank you for that whole thing, Steven. Yes. Workforce gaps. We need the new skill space is here. Thank you very much. Chris Henson, technical director of space and weapons, cybersecurity solutions for the national security agency. Your statement, >>Thank you for having me. Uh, I'm one of several technical leaders in space at the national security agency. And I'm currently on a joint duty assignment at the office of under secretary of defense for acquisition and sustainment. I work under mr. GUMA hot in the C four ISR area, but almost 63 years ago on the 4th of October, 1957, Sputnik was the first artificial satellite launched by the Soviet union in space. History was made in each of you can continue to write future space history in your careers. And just like in 1957, the U S isn't alone in space to include our close partnerships and longterm activities with organizations like the Japanese space agency, the European space agency, and, uh, the Canadian space agency, just to name a few. And when we tackle cybersecurity per space, we have to address, address the idea that the communications command and control, uh, and those mission datas will transverse networks owned and operated by a variety of partners, not only.go.mil.com.edu, et cetera. We need to have all the partners address the cyber effects of those systems because the risk excepted by one is shared by all and sharing cyber best practices, lessons learned, uh, data vulnerabilities, threat data, mitigation, mitigation procedures, all our valuable takeaways, uh, in expanding this space community, improving overall conditions for healthy environment. So thank you for having me, and I appreciate the opportunity to speak to you and your audience. And I look forward to the discussion questions. Thank you. >>Thank you, Chris. Thank you, Bob. Okay. I mean open innovation, the internet, you see plenty of examples. The theme here is partners, commercial government. It's going to take a lot of people and tech companies and technologies to make space work. So we asked my first question, Bonnie, we'll start with you is what do you see as the DOD his role in addressing cybersecurity in space? Uh, it's real, uh, it's a new frontier. Um, it's not going away. It's only going to get more innovative, more open, more contested. It seems like a lot to do there. So what's your role in addressing cyber security in space? >>I think our role is to be the leader in developing and only is it the strategy, but the, uh, the implementation plan is to ensure a full of cybersecurity. If you look at the national cyber cyber strategy, I think publishing 2018 calls for like-minded countries, industry academia, and civil society. Once you mentioned John, the support technology development, uh, digital safety policy advocacy, and research you here today, and those listening are fulfilling their strategy. When you, when you develop, enable use cyber hygiene products, as examples of capabilities, you're pushing the goal to fruition. When you know, what's on your network patron network backup, you're in encrypt your network, you're hardening and preventing cyber attacks. And we in government academia in the case of Cal poly civil networks and in commercial companies, we all benefit from doing that cyber security. Uh, and I think Chris will, we'll, we'll definitely back me up on this more than passwords encryption or pharma. It's truly a mindset and a culture of enabling missions to succeed in assured in a resilient fashion. >>Chris, you're taking reaction to, to the cybersecurity challenge involved here, >>That's it, it's starting really at the highest level of governments. We have, uh, you know, the, the recent security policy directive five that just came out just a couple of days ago, recognize all the factors of cybersecurity that need to come into play. And probably the most important outcome of that as mr said, is the leadership role and that leadership, uh, blends out very well into partnership. So partnership with industry partnership with academia partnership, with, uh, other people that are exploring space. And those partnerships lend itself very naturally to sharing cybersecurity issues, topics as we come up with best practices as we come up with mitigation strategies. And as we come up with vulnerabilities and share that information, the, uh, we're not going to go alone in space, just like we're probably not going to go alone in many other industries or areas, uh, that the DOD has to be, uh, involved in many spectrums of deploying to space. >>And that deployment involves as Mr. Guzman said, encryption authentication, knowing what's on the network, knowing the, the fabric of that network. And if nothing else, this, uh, this, uh, internet of things and work from home environment that we've, uh, partaken of these last few months has even explored and expanded that notion even more dramatically as we have people dial in from all over the different, uh, locations, well space will be that natural node that, uh, natural, uh, next network and mesh involvement that we'll have to protect and explore on not just from a terrestrial involvement, but all segments of it. Th the comm segment, the space vehicle and the ground portion, >>No bond. We talked about this in our other segment, um, around with the president of Cal poly, but the operating models of the space force and the DOD and getting space. It's a software defined world, right? So cybersecurity is a real big issue. Cause you have an operating model that's requiring software to power, these low hanging satellites. That's just an extension to the network. It's distributed computing, know what this is. If you understand what technology we do in space, it's no different, it's just a different environment. So it's software defined that just lends itself well to hacking. I mean, if I'm a hacker I'm going, Hey, why not just take out a satellite and crash it down or make the GPS do something different? I mean, it's definitely an attack vector. This is a big deal. It's not just like getting credentials that are cashed on a server. You gotta really protect, >>Right? Because in one hand it space will carry not only, uh, uh, you know, for local national security information. Uh, but the, uh, I feel like at the economic wellbeing, the financial state of allowed a lot of countries and institutions, you know, more and more John lb, they'll be using space assets to, uh, uh, to make, uh, make, make all that happen. Right. So, and if you look at the, you talk, you mentioned the attack vectors in space, you know, it's not just the computers in the ground, but if you look at the whole life cycle for satellite systems in space, you know, that the, the, the tasking that you need to do that the command, the controlling of the vehicle, the data that comes down in the ground, even when you launch the, the birds, the satellites, you know, they only need to be protected because they're all somewhat vulnerable to, uh, to hacking, uh, to cyber attacks. Especially as we grow into commercialization space, it's going to be a lot more people out there playing in this world. It's going to be a lot more companies out there. And, you know, it's hard to track, uh, uh, you know, the, the potential of, of, of foreign influences as an example, and therefore the potential of being vulnerable in terms of the cyber threat. >>Gentlemen, I like you guys said to move on to this leadership role, you mentioned that you want to be a leader. I get it. The DOD is department of defense. That's a new frontier to defend war time zone. You mentioned war time opportunity potentially, but how do you guys assist that's term hat to getting done? Because there's public and private space operations happening, um, there's security challenge. What does being a leader mean? And how does the DOD department of defense assist driving the public and private? Do you lead from a project standpoint, you lead from a funding standpoint? Is it architectural? I mean, you're talking about now a new end to end architecture. It's not just cloud it's on premise. It's in devices, it's offloaded with new AI technology and Nicks and devices. It's IOT, it's all, this is all new, this is all new. What does it mean for the DOD to be a leader and how do you assist others to get involved? And what does that mean? >>Yeah, I think, uh, the one hand, you know, DOD used to lead, uh, in terms of, uh, uh, being the only source of funding for a lot of, uh, highly developmental efforts. Uh, we're seeing a different story in space. Again, I keep going back to the commercialization of space. We're seeing a lot more players, right? So in many ways >>Ally's commercial companies are actually legally leading the R and D uh, of a lot of different technologies. So we want to take, we certainly want to take advantage of that. So from a leadership standpoint, I think we, we, Lucia can come in, you know, by partnering a lot more with, with the commercial companies, uh, in 2022, the DOD released the defense, uh, uh, space strategy as an example that highlights the threats, the challenges and opportunities the United States has faced by, by sending a example of how we, how we, uh, how we counter, uh, the threats that are out there, not just the DOD, but, but the disability and the commercial sector as well. Our current conditions are strong, but we want to use four lines of effort to meet our challenges and capitalize on our desire state space, uh, lines of effort include building a comprehensive military badges space, integrating space into a national joint and combined operations. Like I mentioned before, shaping that strategic environment and cooperating with allies, partners, and industry and other U S governmental agencies, departments, and agencies to advance the cost of space to take full advantage of what space can provide us, uh, in DOD, uh, and the nation. Chris has a domain. Now, what's your take on all that? >>That's because again, it's going to take more people, >>More diverse, potentially more security >>Halls. What's your view on it? >>Well, let's, let's look at how innovation and new technologies can help us in these areas. So, uh, and, and mentioned it a couple of topics that you hit on already. One of the areas that we can improve on is certainly in the, uh, the architecture, uh, where we look at a zero trust architecture, one of the NIST standards that's come about where it talks about the authentication, uh, the need to know a granular approach, this idea of being able to protect, not just data, but the resources and how people can get access to those, whether they're coming in through an identification, authentication Prudential, or, uh, other aspects of, uh, the, the idea of not just anybody should be able to have access to data or anybody should have access once they're on the inside of the network. So that zero trust architecture is, is one approach where we can show some leadership and guidance. >>Another area is in, uh, a topic that you touched on as well was in the software area. So some innovations are coming on very rapidly and strong in this artificial intelligence and machine learning. So if we can take this AI and ML and apply it to our software development areas, they can parse so much information very quickly. And, uh, you know, this vast array of code that's going into system nowadays, and then that frees up our human, uh, explicit talent and developers that can then look at other areas and not focus on minor bawling to Beverly fix a vulnerability. Uh, they, they can really use their unique skills and talents to come up with a better process, a better way, and let the artificial intelligence and machine learning, find those common problems, those, those unknown, hidden lines of code that, uh, get put into a software alarm Prairie, and then pull down over and over again from system to system. So I think between, uh, an architecture leadership role and employee innovation are two areas that we can show, uh, some benefits and process improvement to this whole system. >>That's a great point, Chris, and you think about just the architectural computer architecture, you know, S you know, network attached storage is an advantage software defined there. You could have flash all flash arrays for storage. You could have multiple cores on a device and this new architecture, offloads things, and it's a whole new way to gain efficiencies. I mean, you got Intel, you got Nvidia, you've got armed all the processors all built in. Um, so there's definitely been commercial best practices and benefits to a new kind of architecture that takes advantage of these new things. It's just, just efficiencies. Um, but this brings up the whole supply chain conversation. I want to get your thoughts on this, because there is talk about predatory investments and access and tactics to gain supply chain access to space systems, your thoughts. >>Yeah. It's a serious threat and not just for, uh, the U S uh, space. So supply chain, if you will, is the supply chain. And I says, you know, writ large, I think, uh, I think it's a, it's a, it's a threat that's, that's real, we're we're seeing today. I just saw an example recently, uh, involving, uh, our, I think our launch services were, there was a, uh, a foreign, uh, threat that was those trying to get into a true through with predatory investments. Uh, so, uh, it is something that we need to, uh, be aware of it it's happening, uh, and is continuing to happen. Uh, it's an easy way to gain access, to, uh, do our IP. Uh, and, uh, so it's something that we, uh, are serious about in terms of, uh, awareness and, and countering >>Chris, your thoughts. I mean, we've see, I mean, I'm an open source guy. I was seen it when I grew up in the industry in the eighties, open source became a revolution, but with that, it enabled new tactics for, um, state sponsored attacks on it that became a domain in of itself. Um, that's well-documented and people talk about that all the time in cyber. Now you have open innovation with hardware, software connected systems. This is going to bring supply chain nightmare. How do you track it all? Who's got what software and what device, where the chip come from, who made it, this is the potential is everywhere. How do you see the, these tactics, whether it's a VC firm from another country or this, that, and the other thing startup. >>Yeah. So when we see, when we see coal companies being purchased by foreign investors, and, you know, we can get blocked out of those, whether it's in the food industry, or if it's in a microchip, then that microchip could be used in a cell phone or a satellite or an automobile. So all of our industries that have these companies that are being purchased, or a large born investment influx into those, you know, that could be suspect. And we, we have to be very careful with those, uh, and, and do the tracking of those, especially when those, uh, some of those parts of mechanisms are coming from off shore. And then going again, going back to, uh, the space policy directive five, it calls out for better supply chain, resource management, the tracking, the knowing the pedigree and the, the quantitative of ability of knowing where those software libraries came from, where the parts came from and the tracking and delivery of that from an end to end system. >>And typically when we have a really large vendor, they can, they can do that really well. But when we have a subcontractor to a subcontractor, to a subcontractor, their resources may not be such that they can do that. Try tracking in mitigation for counterfeits or fraudulent materials going into our systems. So it's a very difficult challenge, and we want to ensure as best we can that as we ingest those parts, as we ingest those software libraries and technologies into the system, that, uh, before we employ them, we have to do some robust testing. And I don't want to say that the last line of defense, but that certainly is a mechanism for finding out, do the systems perform as they stated, uh, on a test bench or a flat set, whatever the case may be before we actually deploy it. And then we're relying on the output or the data that comes from that, that system that may have some corrupt or suspect parts in it. >>Great point, this federal grant, >>The problem with space systems is kind of, you know, is once you, once you launch the bird or the sunlight, uh, your access to it is, is diminished significantly, right? Unless you, you go up there and take it down. Uh, so, you know, kind of to Chris's point, we need to be able to test all the different parts of insurer that is performing as, as described there ass, I spent as specified, uh, with, with good knowledge that it's, uh, it's, uh, it's trustworthy. Uh, and, uh, so we that all on the ground before we, we take it up to launch it. >>It's funny. You want agility, you want speed and you want security, and you want reliability and risk management all aggressive, and it's a technical problem. It says it's a business model problem. I'd love to get real quick. Before we jump into some of the more workforce and gap issues on the personnel side, have you guys should just take a minute to explain quickly what's the federal view. If you had to kind of summarize the federal view of the DOD and the roll with it wants to take, so all the people out there on the commercial side or students out there who are, you know, wanting to jump in, what is the current modern federal view of space cybersecurity. >>Chris, why don't you take that on I'll follow up. Okay. Uh, I don't know that I can give you the federal view, but I can certainly give you the department of defense. That cybersecurity is extremely important. And as our vendors and our suppliers, uh, take on a very, very large and important role, one area that we're looking at improving on is a cyber certification maturity model, where we, where we look at the vendors and how they implement an employee cyber hygiene. So that guidance in and of itself shows the emphasis of cyber security that when we want to write a contract or a vendor, uh, for, for a purchase, that's going to go into a space system. We'd like to know from a third party audit capability, can that vendor, uh, protect and defend to some extent the amount that that part or piece or software system is going to have a cyber protection already built into it from that vendor, from the ground floor up before it even gets put into a larger system. >>So that shows a level of the CMMC process that we've thought about and, uh, started to employ, uh, beginning in 2021 and will be further built on in, in the out years. How, how important the DOD takes that. And other parts of the government are looking at this, in fact, other nations are looking at the CMMC model. So I think it shows a concern in very many areas, uh, not just in the department of defense that they're going to adopt an approach like this. Uh, so it shows the, the pluses and the benefits of a cybersecurity model that, uh, all can build on boggy reaction. Yeah, I'll just, uh, I'll just add to that, John, you, you, you, you asked earlier about, you know, how do we, uh, track, uh, commercial entities or, or people in the space and cyber security domains? Uh, I can tell you that, uh, at least my view of it, you know, space and cyber security are new, it's exciting, it's challenging a lot technical challenges there. So I think in >>Terms of attracting the right people, personnel to work those areas, uh, I think it's, it's not only intellectually challenging, uh, but it's important for, for the dependency that NASA States, uh, and it's important for, for, for economic security, uh, writ large for, for us as well. So I think, uh, in terms of a workforce and trying to get people interested in, in those domains, uh, I hope that they see the same thing we do in terms of, of the challenges and the opportunities it presents itself in the future. >>Awesome. I love your talk on intro track there falling. You mentioned, uh, the three key areas of DOD sec success, developing a government whole government approach to partnership with the private sector. I think that's critical and the allies prioritizing the right investments on resilience, innovation, adaptive operations, and responding to rapidly to effectively emerging technology. So you can be fast, all think are all things. I all, all those things are relevant. So given that, I want to get your thoughts on the defense space strategy in 2020, the DOD released dispense defense space, strategy, highlighting threats, and challenges and opportunities. How would you summarize those threats and those challenges and opportunities? What are the, what are those things that you're watching in the defense space area? Right. >>Well, I think, I think I saw, as I said before, of course, as well, you know, uh, or, or seeing that a space will be highly contested, uh, because it's a critical element in our, in our war fighting construct, uh, Dwayne, a future conflict, I think we need to, to win space as well. So when you, when you look at our near peer adversaries, there's a lot of efforts, uh, in trying to, to, to take that advantage away from the United States. So, so the threat is real, uh, and I think it's going to continue to evolve and grow. Uh, and the more we use space, both commercial and government, I think you're going to see a lot more when these threads some AFAs itself, uh, in, in forms of cyber, cyber attacks, or even kinetic attacks in some cases as needed. Uh, so yeah, so with the, the, the threat is need growing, uh, space is congested, as we talked about, it will continually be contested in the future as well. So we need to have, uh, like we do now in, in, in all the other domains, a way to defend it. And that's what we're working on with India, with the, how do we pilot with tech, our assets in space, and how do we make sure that the data information that traverses through space assets are trust 40, um, and, uh, and, and, and free of any, uh, uh, interference >>Chris, exciting time. I'm your, if you're in technology, um, this is crossing many lines here, tech society will war time, defense, new areas, new tech. I mean, it's security, it's intoxicating at many levels, because if you think about it, it's not one thing. It's not one thing anymore. It spans a broader spectrum, these opportunities. >>Yeah. And I, and I think that expansion is, is a natural outgrowth from, as our microprocessors and chips and technology continue to shrink smaller and smaller. You know, we, we think of our, our cell phones and our handheld devices and tablets, and so on that have just continued to, uh, get embedded in our everyday society, our everyday way of life. And that's a natural extension when we start applying those to space systems. When we think of smallsats and cube sets and the technology that's, uh, can be repurposed into, uh, a small vehicle and the cost has come down so dramatically that, you know, we, we can afford to get a rapid experiments, rapid, um, exploitations and, and different approaches in space and learn from those and repeat them very quickly and very rapidly. And that applies itself very well to an agile development process, dev sec ops, and this notion of spins and cycles and refreshing and re uh, addressing priorities very quickly so that when we do put a new technology up, that the technology is very lean and cutting edge, and hasn't been years and years in the making, but it's, uh, relevant and new, and the, uh, the cybersecurity and the vulnerabilities of that have to be addressed because of, and allow that DevSecOps process to take place so that we can look at those vulnerabilities and get that new technology and those new, new experiments and demonstrations in space and get lessons learned from them over and over again. >>Well, that brings us to the next big topic I want to spend the remainder of our time on that is workforce this next generation. If I wasn't so old, I would quit my job and I would join medially. It's so much, it's a fun, it's exciting. And it's important. And this is what I think is a key point is that cybersecurity in and of itself has got a big gap of shortage of workers, nevermind, adding space to it. So this is, uh, the intersection of space and cybersecurity. There is a workforce opportunity for this next generation, a young person to person re-skilling, this is a big deal. Bong, you have thoughts on this. It's not just STEM, it's everything. >>Yeah. It's everything, you know, uh, the opportunities would have in space it's significant and tremendous. And I think, uh, if I were young, again, as you pointed out, John, uh, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm lucky that I'm in this domain in this world and I started years ago. Uh, but it continues to be exciting, uh, lots of, lots of opportunities, you know, and when you, when you look at, uh, some of the commercial space, uh, systems that are being, being put up, uh, if you look at, I mentioned Starlink before, and, and, uh, Amazon's Kuyper constellation. These guys are talking about couple of thousand satellites in space to provide ubiquitous communications for internet globally and that sort of thing. Uh, and they're not the only ones that are out there producing capability. Uh, we're seeing a lot more commercial imagery products being developed by bike, by companies, both within the U S and, and, uh, foreign foreign elements as well. So I think it's an exciting time to be in space. Certainly lots of opportunities, there's technical challenges, uh, galore in terms of, you know, not only the overcoming the physics of space, but being able to operate, uh, flexibly, uh, in, uh, get the most you can out of the capabilities we have, uh, uh, operating up as high as being cool. I mean, everyone looks at launch. >>She gets millions of views on live streams, the on demand, reruns get millions and millions of views. Um, it's, there's a lot of things there. Um, so Chris, what specifically could you share are things that people would work on? Um, jobs skills, what are some, what's the aperture, what's it look like if you zoom out and look at all the opportunities from a scale standpoint, what's out there, >>We'll talk to the aperture, but I want to give a shout out to our space force. And I mean, their, their job is to train and equip, uh, future space and, uh, that, that space talent. And I think that's going to be a huge plus up, uh, to have, uh, uh, a space force that's dedicated to training equipping, uh, the, an acquisition and a deployment model that, uh, will benefit not just the other services, but all of our national defense and our, uh, you know, our, our strategic way of, uh, how, how this company, country, employees space, uh, altogether. So having, having a space for us, I think, as a, is a huge, uh, a huge issue. And then to get to that aperture aspect of, of what you're, what you're asking and, you know, that addresses a larger workforce. Uh, we need so many different talents in, in this area. >>Uh, we can, we can have, we can employ a variety of people, uh, from technical writers to people who write, uh, write in developed software to those who, uh, are bending metal and actually, uh, working in a hardware environment. And, uh, those that do planning and launch operations and all of those spectrums and issues of jobs, or are directly related to a workforce that can contribute to, to space. And then once that data gets to the ground and employed out to a user, whether it's a data or we're looking at, uh, from a sensor recent, uh, recent events on, uh, shipping lanes, those types of things. So space has such a wide and diverse swath that the aperture's really wide open, uh, for a variety of backgrounds. And, and those that, uh, really just want to take an opportunity, take a, take a technical degree or a degree that, uh, can apply itself to a tough problem, uh, because they certainly exist in space. And we can, we can use that mindset of problem solving, whether you come at it from a hacker mindset, an ethical, a white hat approach to testing and vulnerability exploration, or somebody who knows how to actually, um, make, uh, operations, uh, safer, better, uh, through space situation awareness. So there's a, there's a huge swath of opportunity for us >>Bon talk about the, um, the cyber security enabled environment, the use cases that are possible when you have cybersecurity in play with space systems, um, which is in and of itself, a huge range of jobs, codings supply chain. We just talked about a bunch of them. There's still more connected use cases that go beyond that, that, that are enabled by it. If you think about it, and this is what the students at Cal poly and every other college and university community college, you name it, or watching videos on YouTube, anyone with a brain can jump in. If they, if they see the future, it's an all net new space force is driving awareness, but there's a whole slew of these new use cases that I call space enabled by cybersecurity systems. Your thoughts. >>Absolutely. I, you know, I was, uh, had planned on attending the, uh, uh, the cyber challenge that's Cal poly had planned in June, of course, a pandemic, uh, uh, took care of that plan. But, but I was intrigued by, by the approach that the Cal poly was taking with, with, uh, middle school and high school kids of, of, of, of exposing him to a problem set here. You have a, a satellite that came down from space, uh, and, uh, part of the challenge was to do Porensic analysis on the debris, uh, the remaining pieces of the sound like to figure out what happened. Uh, it had a, uh, a cybersecurity connotation. It was hacked. It was attacked by, by cyber threat nation, took it down. And the beauty of having these kids kind of play with, with the remaining parts of the satellite figure out what happened. >>So I was pretty exciting. I was really looking forward to participating in that, but again, the pandemic kind of blew that up, but I, I look forward to future events like that to, to get our young people intrigued and interested in, uh, in this new field of space. Now, you know, Chris was talking earlier about opportunities, the opportunity that you talk about, you know, while I would like to have people come to the government, right. To help us out. It's not, it's not just focused on government, right? There's not lots of opportunities in commercial space. I, if you will, uh, for, for a lot of talent to, uh, uh, to have, uh, to participate in. So the challenge is a man's government and the commercial sector, John, >>I mean, you get the hardcore, you know, I want to work for the DOD. I want to work for NSA. I want to work for the government. You clearly got people who want to have that kind of mission, but for the folks out there, Chris and bong that are like, I'll do I qualify it? It's like the black box of the DOD. It's like a secret thing. You got any clearance, you've got to get all these certifications. And you've got to take all kinds of tests and background checks. And, um, is it like that? And will that continue? Cause some people might say, Hey, can I even get involved? What do I do? So I know there's some private partnerships going on with companies out there in the private sector. So this is now a new, you guys seem to be partnering and going outside the comfort zone of the old kind of tactical things. What are some of those opportunities that people could get involved that they might not know about >>PR for NSA, there's a variety of workforce, uh, initiatives that, uh, uh, for anybody from a high school work study can take advantage of to, uh, those that would like have to have internships. And those that are in a traditional academic environment, there's, uh, several NSA schools across the country that have a academic and cyber acts, uh, sites of excellence that participate in projects that are shepherded and mentored by those at NSA that can get those tough problems that don't have maybe a classified or super sensitive, uh, nature that that can be worked in and in an academia environment. So, so those are two or three examples of how somebody can break into, uh, the, uh, an intelligence organization and the, and the other agencies have those, uh, opportunities as well across the intelligence community and the, the partnership between and collaborative collaboration between private industry and the agencies and the department of defense just continue to grow over and over again. And even myself being able to take care advantage of a joint duty assignment between my home organization and the Pentagon just shows another venue of somebody that's in one organization can partner and leverage with another organization as well. So I'm an example of, of that partnering that's going on today. >>So there's some innovation, bong, non traditional pathways to find talent. What are out there? What are new, what are these new nontraditional ways >>I was going to add to what Chris was, was mentioning John? Yeah. Even within view and under the purview of our chief information officer, back in 2013, the deputy surfed dirty defense signed the, uh, what we call the DOD cyberspace workforce strategy, uh, into effect. And that included a program called the cyber information technology exchange program. It's an exchange program in which a, uh, you know, private sector employee and worked for the DOD in cyber security positions, uh, span across multiple mission critical areas. So this is one opportunity to learn, uh, you know, in inside the DOD what's happening as a private sector person, if you will, uh, going back to what we talked about, you know, kinda, uh, opportunities, uh, within the government for, for somebody who might be interested, uh, you know, you don't have to be super smart, Bork and space. Uh, there's a lot of like, like Chris pointed out, there's a lot of different areas that we need to have people down within people to do, uh, to conduct the mission space. So you don't have to be mathematician mathematician. You don't have to be an engineer to succeed in this business. I think there's plenty of opportunities for, for any types of, of talent, any type of academic disciplines that, that, that, that they're out there. >>And I think, you know, Chris is shout out to the space force is really worth calling out again, because I think to me, that's a big deal. It's a huge deal. It's going to change the face of our nation and society. So super, super important. And that's going to rise the tide. I think it's gonna create, uh, some activation, uh, for a younger generation, certainly, and kind of new opportunities, new problems to solve new threats to take on and, and move it on. So really super conversation space in cybersecurity, the department of defense perspective, Von and Chris, thank you for taking the time. I'd love you guys just to close out. We'll start with you bong. And then Chris summarize for the folks watching, whether it's a student at Cal poly or other university or someone in industry and government, what is the department of defense perspective for space cybersecurity? >>Chris, won't go and take that on. I started, thank you. Uh, cyber security applies to much more than just the launch and download of mission data or human led exploration and the planning, testing, and experiments in the lab prior to launch require that cyber protection, just as much as any other space link, ground segment, trust rail network, or user data, and any of that loss of intellectual property or proprietary data is an extremely valuable and important, and really warrants, cybersecurity safeguards in any economic espionage or data exfiltration or denied access to that data I E ransomware or some other, uh, attack that can cripple any business or government endeavor. Uh, no matter how small or large, if it's left in our economic backbone, uh, clearly depends on space and GPS is more than just a direction finding our banking needs that a T and timing from P and T or whether it says systems that protect our shipping and airline industry of whether they can navigate and go through a particular storm or not, uh, even fighting forest fires picked up by a remote sensor. >>All those space-based assets, uh, require protection from spoofing date, uh, data denial or total asset loss. An example would be if a satellite sensitive optics were intentionally pointed at the sun and damaged, or if a command, uh, to avoid collision with another space vehicle was delayed or disrupted or a ground termination command. As we just saw just a few days ago at T minus three seconds prior to liftoff, if those all don't go as planned, uh, those losses are real and can be catastrophic. So the threat to space is pervasive real and genuine, and your active work across all those platforms is a necessary and appreciated. And your work in this area is critical, uh, going forward going forward. Uh, thank you for this opportunity to speak with you and, uh, talking on this important topic. >>Thank you, Chris Henson, goodbye. >>Closing remarks. Yeah. Likewise, John, uh, again, uh, as, as Chris said, thank you for, for the opportunity to discuss this very important, uh, around space, cyber security, as well as addressing, uh, at the end there, we were talking about workforce development and the need to have, uh, people, uh, in the mix for four features. We discussed with you. We need to start that recruiting early, uh, as we're doing to address, uh, the STEM gap today, we need to apply the same thing for cybersecurity. We, we absolutely need smart, innovative people to protect both Iraq. Anomic wellbeings a nation as well as our national defense. So this is the right conversation to have at this time, John and I, again, thank you and our Cal poly hose for, or, uh, having a symposium and, and having this opportunity to have this dialogue. Thank you, >>Gentlemen. Thank you for your time and great insights. We couldn't be there in person. We're here virtual for the space and cybersecurity symposium, 2020, the Cal poly I'm Jennifer with Silicon angle and the cube, your host. Thank you for watching.

>> Voiceover: From around the globe, it's theCUBE, covering Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020 hosted by Cal Poly. >> Hello everyone? Welcome to the Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020 hosted by Cal Poly and theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, your host. We have a great session here. Space cybersecurity, the Department of Defense perspective. We have Bong Gumahad, Director of C4ISR, Directorate Office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition and Sustainment for the DOD. And Chris Henson, Technical Director Space and Weapons, Cybersecurity Solutions for the National Security Agency. Gentlemen, thank you for taking the time for this awesome session. >> Thank you, John. >> Thank you. >> So we're going to talk about the perspective of the DOD relative to space cybersecurity. A lot going on, congestion, contention, freedom, evolution, innovation. So Bong, I'd like to have you start with your opening statement on how you see the space cybersecurity perspective. >> John, thanks for the intro, really appreciate it. First, let me give my thanks to Cal Poly for convening the Space and Cybersecurity Symposium this year. And despite the pandemic, the organization and the content delivery is pretty impressive. I really foot stomping what can possibly be done with a number of these virtual platforms. This has been awesome, thanks for the opportunity. I also want to recognize my colleague, Chris Henson from NSA, who is actually assigned to our staff at the OUSD, but he brings both policy and technical perspective in this whole area. So I think you'll find his commentary and positions on things very refreshing for today's seminar. Now space cybersecurity is a pretty interesting terminology for us all. Cybersecurity means protecting against cyber threats. And it's really more than just computers here on earth. Space is the newest war fighting domain and cybersecurity is perhaps even more of a challenge in this domain than others. I'm sure Lieutenant General Thompson and Major John Shaw discuss the criticality of this new Space Force. It's the newest military service in the earlier sessions and they're at the risk of repeating what they already addressed. Let me start by talking about what space means to DOD and what we're doing directly from my advantage point as part of the Acquisition and Sustainment arm of the Pentagon. Well, what I want to share with you today is how the current space strategy ties into the National Defense strategy and supports the department's operational objectives. As the director of C4ISR, I have come to understand how the integration of C4ISR capability is a powerful asset to enhance the lethality of the joint war fighter. Secretary Lord, our boss, the Under Secretary for Acquisition and Sustainment is diligent in her pursuit to adapt and modernize acquisition processes, to influence the strategy and to focus our efforts to make our objectives a reality. I think first and foremost, we are building a more lethal force. This joint force will project lethality in contested environments and across all domains through an operationally integrated and resiliency 4ISR infrastructure. We are also cultivating our alliances, deepening interoperability, which is very important in a future fight and collaboratively planning with those who partner with us in the fight. Most significantly for our work in acquisition and sustainment, we continue to optimize the department for greater performance and affordability through reform of the acquisition process. Now space is our newest fighting domain. And while it is indeed unique, it shares many common traits with the others, land, air and sea. All are important to the defense of the US. In conflict, no doubt about this, they will be contested and they must be defended. One domain will not win future conflicts and in a joint operation in a future fight and the future conflict they must all succeed. I see three areas being key toward DOD strategic success in space. One, developing our whole of government approach in close partnership with the private sector and our allies. Two, prioritizing our investments in resiliency, innovation and adaptive operations. And third, responding rapidly and effectively to leverage emerging technologies and seize opportunities to advance US strengths, partnerships and alliances. Let me emphasize that space is increasingly congested and tested and demanded as essential to lethality operational effectiveness and the security of our nation. Now the commercialization space offers a broad set of investments in satellite technology, potential opportunities to leverage those investments and pathways to develop cost efficient space architecture, for the department and the nation. It's funny, there's a new race, a race for space, if you will, between commercial companies buying for dominance of space. Now the joint staff within DOD is currently building an operational construct to employ and engage as a unified force coordinated across all domains. We call it the Joint All Domain Command and Control, JADC2. It is the framework that is under development to allow us to conduct integrated operations in the future. The objective of JADC2 is to provide the war fighter access to the decision making information while providing mission assurance of the information and resilience of the underlying terrestrial air in space networks that support them. Operationally, JADC2 seeks to maintain seamless integration, adaptation, and employment of our capability to sense signal, connect, transmit, process control, direct, and deliver lethal capabilities against the enemy. We gain a strategic advantage through the integration of these capabilities across all the domains, by providing balance space awareness, horse protection, and weapons controlled and deployment capabilities. Now successfully any ratings in these systems and capabilities will provide our war fighters overwhelming superiority on the battlefield in an environment challenged by near peer adversaries, as well as non state actors. In space, the character of its employment is changing, driven by increasing demands, not just by DOD, but by the commercial sector as well. You know, more and more we see greater use of small satellite systems to address a myriad of emerging questions, ubiquitous communications, awareness, sensory diversity, and many more. As I said before, the commercial world is pioneering high rate production of small satellites in their efforts to deploy hundreds, if not thousands of nodes. SpaceX Starlink Constellation is one example. Another one is Amazon's Kuiper. Kuiper just received FCC approval to deploy like over 3000 of these different nodes. While a number of these companies continue to grow, some have struggled. Case in point is OneWeb. Nevertheless, the appetite remains strong and DOD is taken advantage of these advances to support our missions. We are currently exploring how to better integrate the DOD activities involving small satellites under the small satellite coordinating activity, scholarly call it. We want to ensure collaboration and interoperability to maximize efficiency in acquisition and operation. When we started this activity on over a year and a half ago, we documented over 70 plus separate small sat programs within DOD. And now we've developed a very vibrant community of interest surrounding our small satellites. Now, part of the work we have identified nine focus areas for further development. These are common areas to all systems and by continuing to expand on these, our plan is to enable a standard of practice that can be applied across all of the domains. This includes lawn services, ground processing distribution, and of course, a topic of interest to the symposium space security and Chris will talk more about that, being that he's the expert in this area. One challenge that we can definitely start working on today is workforce development. Cybersecurity is unique as it straddles STEM and security and policy. The trade craft is different. And unfortunately I've seen estimates recently suggesting a workforce gap in the next several years, much like the STEM fields. During the next session, I am a part of a panel with president Armstrong at Cal Poly, and Steve Jacques, the founder of the National Security Space Association to address workforce development. But for this panel, I'll look forward to having this dialogue surrounding space cybersecurity with Chris and John. Thank you, John. >> Bong, thank you for that opening statement and yes, workforce gaps, we need the new skill space is here. Thank you very much. Chris Henson's Technical Director of Space and Weapons, Cybersecurity Solutions for the National Security Agency. Your opening statement. >> Thank you for having me. I'm one of several technical leaders in space at the National Security Agency. And I'm currently on a joint duty assignment at the office of Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition and Sustainment. I work under Mr. Gumahad in the C4ISR area. But almost 63 years ago, on the 4th of October, 1957, Sputnik was the first artificial satellite launched by the Soviet Union and space history was made. And each of you can continue to write future space history in your careers. And just like in 1957, the US isn't alone in space to include our close partnerships and longterm activities with organizations like the Japanese Space Agency, the European Space Agency and the Canadian Space Agency, just to name a few. And when we tackle cybersecurity per space, we have to address the idea that the communications command and control and those mission datas will transverse networks owned and operated by a variety of partners, not only .go, .mil, .com, .edu, et cetera. We need to have all the partners address the cyber effects of those systems because the risk accepted by one is shared by all. And sharing cyber best practices, lessons learned, data vulnerabilities, threat data mitigation procedures, all our valuable takeaways in expanding the space community, improving overall conditions for healthy environment. So thank you for having me, and I appreciate the opportunity to speak to you and your audience. And I look forward to the discussion questions, thank you. >> Thank you, Chris, thank you, Bong. Okay, I mean, open innovation, the internet, you see plenty of examples. The theme here is partners, commercial, government. It's going to take a lot of people and tech companies and technologies to make space work. So we asked my first question, Bong, we'll start with you is what do you see as the DOD's role in addressing cybersecurity in space? It's real, it's a new frontier. It's not going away, it's only going to get more innovative, more open, more contested. It seems like a lot to do there. What's your role in addressing cyber security in space? >> I think our role is to be the leader in developing not only is it the strategy, but the implementation plans to ensure a full of cybersecurity. If you look at the National Cyber Strategy, I think published in 2018, calls for like-minded countries, industry academia, and civil society. Once you mentioned John, the support technology development, digital safety policy, advocacy, and research. You here today, and those listening are fulfilling their strategy. When you develop, enable use cyber hygiene products as examples and capabilities, you're pushing the goal to provision. When you know what's on your network, patch network, backup and encrypt your network, you're hardening and preventing cyber attacks. And we in government academia, in the case of Cal Poly, civil networks and in commercial companies, we all benefit from doing that. Cyber security, and I think Chris will definitely back me up on this, more than passwords encryption or firewall. It's truly a mindset and a culture of enabling mission to succeed in assured and in a resilient fashion. >> Chris, you're take and reaction to the cybersecurity challenge involved here. >> It's starting really at the highest level of governments. We have, you know, the recent security policy Directive-5 that just came out just a couple of days ago, recognize all the factors of cybersecurity that need to come into play. And probably the most important outcome of that as Mr. Gumahad said, is the leadership role. And that leadership blends out very well into partnership. So partnership with industry, partnership with academia, partnership with other people that are exploring space. And those partnerships blend itself very naturally to sharing cybersecurity issues, topics, as we come up with best practices, as we come up with mitigation strategies, and as we come up with vulnerabilities and share that information. We're not going to go alone in space, just like we're probably not going to go alone in many other industries or areas. That the DOD has to be involved in many spectrums of deploying to space. And that deployment involves, as Mr. Gumahad said, encryption, authentication, knowing what's on the network, knowing the fabric of that network, and if nothing else, this internet of things and work from home environment that we've partaken of these last few months has even explored and expanded that notion even more dramatically as we have people dial in from all over the different locations. Well, space will be that natural node, that natural next network in measure involvement that we'll have to protect and explore on, not just from a terrestrial involvement, but all segments of it. The calm segment, the space vehicle, and the ground portion. >> You know, Bong, we talked about this in our other segment around with the president of Cal Poly, but the operating models of the Space Force and of the DOD and getting to space. But it's a software defined world, right? So cybersecurity is a real big issue 'cause you have an operating model that's requiring software to power these low hanging satellites. That's just an extension to the network. It's distributed computing, we know what this is. If you understand what technology we do in space, it's no different, it's just a different environment so it's software defined. That just lends itself well to hacking. I mean, if I'm a hacker I'm going, "Hey, why not just take out a satellite and crash it down "or make the GPS do something different?" I mean, it's definitely an attack vector. This is a big deal. It's not just like getting credentials that are cashed on a server, you got to really protect. >> Right, because in one hand it space will carry not only focal national security information, but if you look at the economic wellbeing, the financial state of a lot of countries, institutions, you know, more and more John, they'll be using space assets to make all that happen. So, and if you look at the, you mentioned the attack vectors in space. It's not just the computers in the ground, but if you look at the whole life cycle for satellite systems in space, the tasking that you need to do, the command and controlling of the vehicle, the data that comes down in the ground, even when you launch the birds, the satellites, you know, they all need to be protected because they're all somewhat vulnerable to hacking, to cyber attacks. Especially as we grow into commercialization space, it's going to be a lot more people out there playing in this world. It's going to be a lot more companies out there. And, you know, it's hard to track, the potential of foreign influences as an example, and therefore the potential of being vulnerable in terms of the cyber threat. >> Gentlemen, like you guys said to move on to this leadership role, Bong, you mentioned it. You want to be a leader, I get it, the DOD is Department of Defense, it's a new frontier to defend war time zone, you mentioned war time opportunity potentially. But how do you guys assist that's term hat to getting done? Because there's public and private space operations happening, there's security challenge. What does being a leader mean? And how does the DOD, Department of Defense assist driving the public and private? Do you lead from a project standpoint? Do you lead from a funding standpoint? Is it architectural? I mean, you're talking about now a new end-to-end architecture. It's not just cloud it's on premise, it's in devices, it's offloaded with new AI technology and nix and devices. It's IOT, it's all this and all new. This is all new. What does it mean for the DOD to be a leader and how do you assist others to get involved? And what does that mean? >> Yeah, I think the one hand, you know, DOD used to lead in terms of being the only source of funding for a lot of highly developmental efforts. We're seeing a different story in space. Again, I keep going back to the commercialization of space. We're seeing a lot more players, right? So in many ways allies commercial companies are actually leading the R&D of a lot different technology. So we certainly want to take advantage of that. So from a leadership standpoint, I think leadership can come in, by partnering a lot more with the commercial companies. In 2020, the DOD released the Defense Space Strategy, as an example, that highlights the threats, the challenges and opportunities the United States has faced by setting example of how we counter the threats that are out there, not just the DOD, but the civilian and the commercial sector as well. Our current conditions are strong, but we want to use four lines of effort to meet our challenges and capitalize on our desire to state space. Our lines of effort include building a comprehensive military badges space, integrating space into a national joint and combined operations, like I mentioned before. Shaping that strategic environment and cooperating with allies, partners in industry and other US governmental departments and agencies to advance the cost of space. To take full advantage of what space can provide us in DOD and the nation. >> Chris as a domain now, what's your take on all of this? Because again, it's going to take more people, more diverse, potentially more security hauls. What's your view on this? >> Well, let's look at how innovation and new technologies can help us in these areas. So, and mentioned it a couple of topics that you hit on already. One of the areas that we can improve on is certainly in the architecture. Where we look at a zero trust architecture, one of the NIST standards that's come about. Where it talks about the authentication, the need to know a granular approach, this idea of being able to protect, not just data, but the resources and how people can get access to those, whether they're coming in through an identification, authentication credential, or other aspects of the idea of not just anybody should be able to have access to data or anybody should have access once they're on the inside of the network. So that zero trust architecture is one approach where we can show some leadership and guidance. Another area is in a topic that you touched on as well, was in the software area. So some innovations are coming on very rapidly and strong in this artificial intelligence and machine learning. So if we can take this AI and ML and apply it to our software development areas, they can parse so much information very quickly. And you know, this vast array of software code that's going into system nowadays. And then that frees up our human exquisite talent and developers that can then look at other areas and not focus on minor vulnerability, fix a vulnerability. They can really use their unique skills and talents to come up with a better process, a better way, and let the artificial intelligence and machine learning, find those common problems, those unknown hidden lines of code that get put into a software library and then pull down over and over again from system to system. So I think between an architecture leadership role and employee innovation are two areas that we can show some benefits and process improvement to this whole system. >> That's a great point, Chris, and you think about just the architectural computer architecture network attached storage is an advantage software defined there. You could have flash, all flash arrays for storage. You could have multiple cores on a device. And this new architecture, offloads things, and it's a whole new way to gain efficiencies. I mean, you got Intel, you got Nvidia, you've got armed, all the processors all built in. So there's definitely been commercial best practices and benefits to a new kind of architecture that takes advantage of these new things. It's just efficiencies. But this brings up the whole supply chain conversation. I want to get your thoughts on this because there is talk about predatory investments and access and tactics to gain supply chain access to space systems, your thoughts? >> Yeah, it's a serious threat and not just for the US space supply chain, if you will, is the supply chain you access with large, I think it's a threat that's this real we're seeing today. I just saw an example recently involving, I think our law and services, where there was a foreign threat that was trying to get into a troop through with predatory investments. So it is something that we need to be aware of, it's happening and will continue to happen. It's an easy way to gain access to do our IP. And so it's something that we are serious about in terms of awareness and countering. >> Chris, your thoughts? I mean, I'm an open source guy. We've seen it when I grew up in the industry in the '80s open source became a revolution. But with that, it enabled new tactics for state sponsored attacks and that became a domain in of itself. That's well-documented and people talk about that all the time in cyber. Now you have open innovation with hardware, software connected systems. This is going to bring a supply chain nightmare. How do you track it all? (chuckles) Who's got what software and what device... Where the chip from? Who made it? Just the potential is everywhere. How do you see these tactics? Whether it's a VC firm from another country or this, that, and the other thing, startup, big company-- >> Yeah, so when we see coal companies being purchased by foreign investors, and, you know, we can get blocked out of those, whether it's in the food industry, or if it's in a microchip. Then that microchip could be used in a cell phone or a satellite or an automobile. So all of our are industries that have these companies that are being purchased or a large born investment influx into those, they can be suspect. And we have to be very careful with those and do the tracking of those, especially when those, some of those parts and mechanisms are coming from off shore. And again, going back to the Space Policy Directive-5, it calls out for better supply chain, resource management, the tracking, the knowing the pedigree and the quantitative ability of knowing where those software libraries came from, where the parts came from, and the tracking and delivery of that from an end-to-end system. And typically when we have a really large vendor, they can do that really well. But when we have a subcontractor to a subcontractor, to a subcontractor, their resources may not be such that they can do that tracking in mitigation for counterfeits or fraudulent materials going into our systems. So it's a very difficult challenge, and we want to ensure as best we can that as we ingest those parts, as we ingest those software libraries and technologies into the system, that before we employ them, we have to do some robust testing. And I don't want to say that's the last line of defense, but that certainly is a mechanism for finding out do the systems perform as they stated on a test bench or a flat set, whatever the case may be, before we actually deploy it. And then we're relying on the output or the data that comes from that system that may have some corrupt or suspect parts in it. >> Great point, this federal views-- >> The problem with space systems is kind of, you know, is once you launch the bird or the satellite, your access to it is diminished significantly, right? Unless you go up there and take it down. So, you know, kind of to Chris's point, we need to be able to test all the different parts to ensure that is performing as described there, as specified with good knowledge that it's trustworthy. And so we do that all on the ground before we take it up to launch it. >> It's funny, you want agility, you want speed, and you security, and you want reliability, and risk management. All aggressive, and it's a technical problem, it's a business model problem. Love to get real quick before we jump into some of the more workforce and gap issues on the personnel side, have you guys to just take a minute to explain quickly what's the federal view? If you had to kind of summarize the federal view of the DOD and the role with it wants to take, so all the people out there on the commercial side or students out there who are wanting to jump in, what is the current modern federal view of space cybersecurity? >> Chris, why don't you take that on and I'll follow up. >> Okay, I don't know that I can give you the federal view, but I can certainly give you the Department of Defense that cyber security is extremely important. And as our vendors and our suppliers take on a very, very large and important role, one area that we're looking at improving on is a cyber certification maturity model, where we look at the vendors and how they implement and employee cyber hygiene. So that guidance in and of itself shows the emphasis of cyber security. That when we want to write a contract or a vendor for a purchase that's going to go into a space system, we'd like to know from a third party audit capability, can that vendor protect and defend to some extent the amount that that part or piece or software system is going to have a cyber protection already built into it from that vendor, from the ground floor up, before it even gets put into a larger system. So that shows a level of the CMMC process that we've thought about and started to employ beginning in 2021 and will be further built on in the out years. How important the DOD takes that. And other parts of the government are looking at this. In fact, other nations are looking at the CMMC model. So I think it shows a concern in very many areas, not just in the Department of Defense, that they're going to adopt an approach like this. So it shows the pluses and the benefits of a cybersecurity model that all can build on. >> Bong, your reaction. >> Yeah, I'll just add to that. John, you asked earlier about, you know, how do we track commercial entities or people into the space and cyber security domains? I can tell you that at least my view of it, space and cybersecurity are new. It's exciting, it's challenging, a lot of technical challenges there. So I think in terms of attracting the right people and personnel to work those areas, I think it's not only intellectually challenging, but it's important for the defensing and near States. And it's important for economic security at large for us as well. So I think in terms of a workforce and trying to get people interested in those domains, I hope that they see the same thing we do in terms of the challenges and the opportunities it presents itself in the future. >> Awesome, I loved your talk on intro track there. Bong, you mentioned the three key areas of DOD success, developing a whole government approach to partnership with the private sector. I think that's critical, and the allies. Prioritizing the right investments on resilience, innovation, adaptive operations, and responding to rapidly to effectively emerging technology seem to be fast. I think all those things are relevant. So given that, I want to get your thoughts on the Defense Space Strategy. In 2020, the DOD released dispense Defense Space Strategy, highlighting threats, and challenges and opportunities. How would you summarize those threats and those challenges and opportunities? What are those things that you're watching in the defense space area? >> Right, well, I think as I said before, Chris as well, you know, we're seeing that space will be highly contested because it's a critical element in our war fighting construct. To win our future conflict, I think we need to win space as well. So when you look at our near peer adversaries, there's a lot of efforts in China to take that advantage away from the United States. So the threat is real, and I think it's going to continue to evolve and grow. And the more we use space, for both commercial and government, I think you're going to see a lot more when these threats, some AFAs itself in forms of cyber attacks, or even kinetic attacks in some cases as needed. So, yeah, so the threat is indeed growing, space is congested, as we talked about, it will continually be contested in the future as well. So we need to have, like we do now in all the other domains, a way to defend it. And that's what we're working on within DOD. How do we protect our assets in space, and how do we make sure that the data information that traverses through space assets are trustworthy and free of any interference. >> Chris, exciting time, I'm mean, if you're in technology, this is crossing many lines here, tech, society, war time defense, new areas, new tech. I mean, it's security, it's intoxicating at many levels because if you think about it, it's not one thing. It's not one thing anymore. It spans a broader spectrum, these opportunities. >> Yeah and I think that expansion is a natural outgrowth from, as our microprocessors and chips and technology continue to shrink smaller and smaller. You know, we think of our cell phones and our handheld devices and tablets and so on that have just continued to get embedded in our everyday society, our everyday way of life. And that's a natural extension when we start applying those to space systems, when we think of smallsats and cube sets and the technology that's can be repurposed into a small vehicle, and the cost has come down so dramatically that, you know, we can afford to get rapid experiments, rapid exploitations and different approaches in space and learn from those and repeat them very quickly and very rapidly. And that applies itself very well to an agile development process, DevSecOps, and this notion of spins and cycles and refreshing and re-addressing priorities very quickly so that when we do put a new technology up, that the technology is very lean and cutting edge, and hasn't been years and years in the making, but it's relevant and new. And the cybersecurity and the vulnerabilities of that have to be addressed and allow that DevSecOps process to take place so that we can look at those vulnerabilities and get that new technology and those new experiments and demonstrations in space and get lessons learned from them over and over again. >> Well, that brings us to the next big topic. I want to spend the remainder of our time on, that is workforce, this next generation. If I wasn't so old, I would quit my job and I would join immediately. It's so much fun, it's exciting, and it's important. And this is what I think is a key point is that cybersecurity in and of itself has got a big gap of shortage of workers, nevermind adding space to it. So this is the intersection of space and cybersecurity. There is a workforce opportunity for this next generation, young person to person re-skilling, this is a big deal. Bong, you have thoughts on this? It's not just STEM, it's everything. >> Yeah, it's everything, you know, the opportunities we have in space, it's significant and tremendous. And I think if I were young again, as you pointed out, John, you know, I'm lucky that I'm in this domain in this world and I started years ago, but it continues to be exciting, lots of opportunities, you know. When you look at some of the commercial space systems are being put up, if you look at, I mentioned Starlink before and Amazon's Kuiper Constellation. These guys are talking about couple of thousand satellites in space to provide ubiquitous communications for internet globally, and that sort of thing. And they're not the only ones that are out there producing capability. We're seeing a lot more commercial imagery products being developed by companies, both within the US and foreign elements as well. So I think it's an exciting time to be in space. Certainly lots of opportunities. There's technical challenges galore in terms of not only the overcoming the physics of space, but being able to operate flexibly and get the most you can out of the capabilities we have operating up in space. >> Besides being cool, I mean, everyone looks at launch of space gets millions of views on live streams, the On-Demand reruns get millions and millions of views. There's a lot of things there. So, Chris, what specifically could you share are things that people would work on? Jobs, skills, what's the aperture? What's it look like if you zoom out and look at all the opportunities from a scale standpoint, what's out there? >> I'll talk to the aperture, but I want to give a shout out to our Space Force. And I mean, their job is to train and equip each air space and that space talent. And I think that's going to be a huge plus up to have a Space Force that's dedicated to training, equipping, an acquisition and a deployment model that will benefit not just the other services, but all of our national defense and our strategic way of how this company, country employees space altogether. So having a Space Force, I think, is a huge issue. And then to get to that aperture aspect of what you're asking and that addresses a larger workforce, we need so many different talents in this area. We can employ a variety of people from technical writers, to people who write and develop software to those who bending metal and actually working in a hardware environment. And those that do planning and launch operations and all of those spectrums and issues of jobs, are directly related to a workforce that can contribute to space. And then once that data gets to the ground and employed out to a user, whether it's a weather data, or we're looking at from a sensor, recent events on shipping lanes, those types of things. So space has such a wide and diverse swath that the aperture's really wide open for a variety of backgrounds. And those that really just want to take an opportunity, take a technical degree, or a degree that can apply itself to a tough problem, because they certainly exist in space. And we can use that mindset of problem solving, whether you come at it from a hacker mindset, an ethical, white hat approach to testing and vulnerability exploration. Or somebody who knows how to actually make operations safer, better through space situation awareness. So there's a huge swath of opportunity for us. >> Bong, talk about the cybersecurity enabled environment, the use cases that are possible when you have cybersecurity in play with space systems, which is in and of itself, a huge range of jobs, codings, supply chain, we just talked about a bunch of them. There's still more connected use cases that go beyond that, that are enabled by it, if you think about it. And this is what the students at Cal Poly and every other college and university, community college, you name it, who are watching videos on YouTube. Anyone with a brain can jump in if they see the future. It's all net news. Space Force is driving awareness, but there's a whole slew of these new use cases that I call space enabled by cyber secure systems. Your thoughts? >> Absolutely, I was had planned on attending the Cyber Challenge that's Cal Poly had planned in June. Of course, the pandemic took care of that plan, but I was intrigued by the approach that the Cal Poly was taking with middle school and high school kids of exposing him to a problem set. Here, you have a satellite that came down from space and part of the challenge was to do forensic analysis on the debris, the remaining pieces of the satellite to figure out what happened. It had a cyber cybersecurity connotation. It was hacked, it was attacked by cyber threat nation, took it down. And the beauty of having these kids kind of play with the remaining parts of the satellite, figure out what happened. So it was pretty exciting. I was really looking forward to participating in that, but again, the pandemic kind of blew that up, but I look forward to future events like that, to get our young people intrigued and interested in this new field of space. Now, Chris was talking earlier about opportunities, there're opportunities that you talk about, while I would like to have people come to the government, to help us out, it's not just focused on government. There's lots of opportunities in commercial space, if you will, for a lot of talent to participate in. So the challenge is immense, both government and the commercial sector, John. >> I mean, you get the hardcore, you know, I want to work for the DOD, I want to work for NSA, I want to work for the government. You clearly got people who want to have that kind of mission. But for the folks out there, Chris and Bong that are like, "Do I qualify?" It's like the black box of the DOD, it's like a secret thing, you got to get clearance, you've got to get all these certifications. And you got to take all kinds of tests and background checks. Is it like that, and will that continue? 'Cause some people might say, "Hey, can I even get involved? "What do I do?" So I know there's some private partnerships going on with companies out there in the private sector. So this is now a new, you guys seem to be partnering and going outside the comfort zone of the old kind of tactical things. What are some of those opportunities that people could get involved in that they might not know about? >> For NSA, there's a variety of workforce initiatives that for anybody from a high school work study can take advantage of to those that would like have to have internships. And those that are in a traditional academic environment, there's several NSA schools across the country that have academic and cyber sites of excellence that participate in projects that are shepherded and mentored by those at NSA that can get those tough problems that don't have maybe a classified or super sensitive nature that can be worked in and in an academia environment. So those are two or three examples of how somebody can break into an intelligence organization. And the other agencies have those opportunities as well across the intelligence community. And the partnership between and collaboration between private industry and the agencies and the Department of Defense just continue to grow over and over again. And even myself being able to take advantage of a joint duty assignment between my home organization and the Pentagon, just shows another venue of somebody that's in one organization can partner and leverage with another organization as well. So I'm an example of that partnering that's going on today. >> So there's some innovation. Bong, nontraditional pathways to find talent, what are out there, what are new? What are these new nontraditional ways? >> I was going to add to what Chris was mentioning, John. Even within DOD and under the purview of our chief information officer, back in 2013, the Deputy Secretary Defense signed the, what we call the DOD Cyberspace Workforce Strategy into effect. And that included a program called the Cyber Information Technology Exchange Program. It's an exchange program in which a private sector employee can work for the DOD in cyber security positions span across multiple mission critical areas. So this is one opportunity to learn, inside the DOD what's happening as a private sector person, if you will. Going back to what we talked about, kind of opportunities within the government for somebody who might be interested. You don't have to be super smart, dork in space, there's a lot of, like Chris pointed out, there's a lot of different areas that we need to have people, talented people to conduct the mission in space. So you don't have to be mathematician. You don't have to be an engineer to succeed in this business. I think there's plenty of opportunities for any types of talent, any type of academic disciplines that are out there. >> All right, thank you, and Chris's shout out to the Space Force is really worth calling out again, because I think to me, that's a big deal. It's a huge deal. It's going to change the face of our nation and society. So super, super important. And that's going to rise the tide. I think it's going to create some activation for a younger generation, certainly, and kind of new opportunities, new problems to solve, new threats to take on, and move it on. So really super conversation, space and cybersecurity, the Department of Defense perspective. Bong and Chris, thank you for taking the time. I'd love you guys just to close out. We'll start with you Bong and then Chris. Summarize for the folks watching, whether it's a student at Cal Poly or other university or someone in industry and government, what is the Department of Defense perspective for space cybersecurity? >> Chris, want to go and take that on? >> That's right, thank you. Cybersecurity applies to much more than just the launch and download of mission data or human led exploration. And the planning, testing, and experiments in the lab prior to launch require that cyber protection, just as much as any other space link, ground segment, trust rail network, or user data, and any of that loss of intellectual property or proprietary data is an extremely valuable and important, and really warrants cyber security safeguards. In any economic espionage, your data exfiltration, or denied access to that data, i.e. ransomware or some other attack, that can cripple any business or government endeavor, no matter how small or large, if it's left unprotected. And our economic backbone clearly depends on space. And GPS is more than just a direction finding, banking needs that T and timing from P and T or whether it just systems that protect our shipping and airline industry of whether they can navigate and go through a particular storm or not. Even fighting forest fires picked up by a remote sensor. All those space space assets require protection from spoofing date, data denial, or total asset loss. An example would be if a satellite sensitive optics or intentionally pointed at the sun and damaged, or if a command to avoid collision with another space vehicle was delayed or disrupted or a ground termination command as we just saw just a few days ago at T minus three seconds prior to liftoff, if those all don't go as planned, those losses are real and can be catastrophic. So the threat to space is pervasive, real and genuine, and your active work across all those platforms is necessary and appreciated. And your work in this area is critical going forward. Thank you for this opportunity to speak with you and talking on this important topic. Thank you, Chris Henson. Bong Gumahad, closing remarks? >> Yeah, likewise, John, again, as Chris said, thank you for the opportunity to discuss this very important around space cybersecurity, as well as addressing at the end there, we were talking about workforce development and the need to have people in the mix for future. (indistinct) We discussed, we need to start that recruiting early as we're doing to address the STEM gap today, we need to apply the same thing for cybersecurity. We absolutely need smart and innovative people to protect both our economic wellbeing as a nation, as well as our national defense. So this is the right conversation to have at this time, John. And again, thank you and Cal Poly host for having this symposium and having this opportunity to have this dialogue. Thank you. >> Gentlemen, thank you for your time and great insights. We couldn't be there in person. We're here virtual for the Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020, the Cal Poly. I'm John Furrier with SiliconANGLE and theCUBE, your host. Thank you for watching. (soft music)

>> Narrator: From the Cube Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. >> Hi, and welcome to this CUBE conversation, I'm Stu Min and I'm coming to you from our Boston area studio, we've been digging in with the Pensando team, understand how they're fitting into the cloud, multi-cloud, edge discussion, really thrilled to welcome to the program, first time guest, Silvano Gai, he's a fellow with Pensando. Silvano, really nice to see you again, thanks so much for joining us on theCUBE. >> Stuart, it's so nice to see you, we used to work together many years ago and that was really good and is really nice to come to you from Oregon, from Bend, Oregon. A beautiful town in the high desert of Oregon. >> I do love the Pacific North West, I miss the planes and the hotels, I should say, I don't miss the planes and the hotels, but going to see some of the beautiful places is something I do miss and getting to see people in the industry I do like. As you mentioned, you and I crossed paths back through some of the spin-ins, back when I was working for a very large storage company, you were working for SISCO, you were known for writing the book, you were a professor in Italy, many of the people that worked on some of those technologies were your students. But Silvano, my understanding is you retired so, maybe share for our audience, what brought you out of that retirement and into working once again with some of your former colleagues and on the Pensando opportunity. >> I did retire for a while, I retired in 2011 from Cisco if I remember correctly. But at the end of 2016, beginning of 2017, some old friend that you may remember and know called me to discuss some interesting idea, which was basically the seed idea that is behind the Pensando product and their idea were interesting, what we built, of course, is not exactly the original idea because you know product evolve over time, but I think we have something interesting that is adequate and probably superb for the new way to design the data center network, both for enterprise and cloud. >> All right, and Silvano, I mentioned that you've written a number of books, really the authoritative look on when some new products had been released before. So, you've got a new book, "Building a Future-Proof Cloud Infrastructure," and look at you, you've got the physical copy, I've only gotten the soft version. The title, really interesting. Help us understand how Pensando's platform is meeting that future-proof cloud infrastructure that you discuss. >> Well, network have evolved dramatically in the data center and in the cloud. You know, now the speed of classical server in enterprise is probably 25 gigabits, in the cloud we are talking of 100 gigabit of speed for a server, going to 200 gigabit. Now, the backbone are ridiculously fast. We no longer use Spanning Tree and all the stuff, we no longer use access code aggregation. We switched to closed network, and with closed network, we have huge enormous amount of bandwidth and that is good but it also imply that is not easy to do services in a centralized fashion. If you want to do a service in a centralized fashion, what you end up doing is creating a giant bottleneck. You basically, there is this word that is being used, that is trombone or tromboning. You try to funnel all this traffic through the bottleneck and this is not really going to work. The only place that you can really do services is at the edge, and this is not an invention, I mean, even all the principles of cloud is move everything to the edge and maintain the network as simple as possible. So, we approach services with the same general philosophy. We try to move services to the edge, as close as possible to the server and basically at the border between the sever and the network. And when I mean services I mean three main categories of services. The networking services of course, there is the basic layer, two-layer, three stuff, plus the bonding, you know VAMlog and what is needed to connect a server to a network. But then there is the overlay, overlay like the xLAN or Geneva, very very important, basically to build a cloud infrastructure, and that are basically the network service. We can have others but that, sort of is the core of a network service. Some people want to run BGP layers, some people don't want to run BGP. There may be a VPN or kind of things like that but that is the core of a network service. Then of course, and we go back to the time we worked together, there are storage services. At that time, we were discussing mostly about fiber tunnel, now the BUS world is clearly NVMe, but it's not just the BUS world, it's really a new way of doing storage, and is very very interesting. So, NVMe kind of service are very important and NVMe as a version that is called NVMeOF, over fiber. Which is basically, sort of remote version of NVMe. And then the third, least but not last, most important category probably, is security. And when I say that security is very very important, you know, the fact that security is very important is clear to everybody in our day, and I think security has two main branches in terms of services. There is the classical firewall and micro-segmentation, in which you basically try to enforce the fact that only who is allowed to access something can access something. But you don't, at that point, care too much about the privacy of the data. Then there is the other branch that encryption, in which you are not trying to enforce to decide who can access or not access the resource, but you are basically caring about the privacy of the data, encrypting the data so that if it is hijacked, snooped or whatever, it cannot be decoded. >> Eccellent, so Silvano, absolutely the edge is a huge opportunity. When someone looks at the overall solution and say you're putting something in the edge, you know, they could just say, "This really looks like a NIC." You talked about some of the previous engagement we'd worked on, host bus adapters, smart NICs and the like. There were some things we could build in but there were limits that we had, so, what differentiates the Pensando solution from what we would traditionally think of as an adapter card in the past? >> Well, the Pensando solution has two main, multiple pieces but in term of hardware, has two main pieces, there is an ASIC that we call copper internally. That ASIC is not strictly related to be used only in an adapter form, you can deploy it also in other form factors in another part of the network in other embodiment, et cetera. And then there is a card, the card has a PCI-E interface and sit in a PCI-E slot. So yes, in that sense, somebody can can call it a NIC and since it's a pretty good NIC, somebody can call it a smart NIC. We don't really like that two terms, we prefer to call it DSC, domain specific card, but the real term that I like to use is domain specific hardware, and I like to use domain specific hardware because it's the same term that Hennessy and Patterson use in a beautiful piece of literature that is the Turing Award lecture. It's on the internet, it's public, I really ask everybody to go and try to find it and listen to that beautiful piece of literature, modern literature on computer architecture. The Turing Award lecture of Hennessy and Patterson. And they have introduced the concept of domain specific hardware, and they explain also the justification for why now is important to look at domain specific hardware. And the justification is basically in a nutshell and we can go more deep if you're interested, but in a nutshell is that the specing, that is the single tried performer's measurement of a CPU, is not growing fast at all, is only growing nowadays like a few point percent a year, maybe 4% per year. And with this slow grow, over specing performance of a core, you know the core need to be really used for user application, for customer application, and all what is known as Sentian can be moved to some domain specific hardware that can do that in a much better fashion, and by no mean I imply that the DSC is the best example of domain specific hardware. The best example of domain specific hardware is in front of all of us, and are GPUs. And not GPUs for graphic processing which are also important, but GPU used basically for artificial intelligence, machine learning inference. You know, that is a piece of hardware that has shown that something can be done with performance that the purpose processor can do. >> Yeah, it's interesting right. If you term back the clock 10 or 15 years ago, I used to be in arguments, and you say, "Do you build an offload, "or do you let it happen is software." And I was always like, "Oh, well Moore's law with mean that, "you know, the software solution will always win, "because if you bake it in hardware, it's too slow." It's a very different world today, you talk about how fast things speed up. From your customer standpoint though, often some of those architectural things are something that I've looked for my suppliers to take care of that. Speak to the use case, what does this all mean from a customer stand point, what are some of those early use cases that you're looking at? >> Well, as always, you get a bit surprised by the use cases, in the sense that you start to design a product thinking that some of the most cool thing will be the dominant use cases, and then you discover that something that you have never really fought have the most interesting use case. One that we have fought about since day one, but it's really becoming super interesting is telemetry. Basically, measuring everything in the network, and understanding what is happening in the network. I was speaking with a friend the other day, and the friend was asking me, "Oh, but we have SNMP for many many years, "which is the difference between SNMP and telemetry?" And the difference is to me, the real difference is in SNMP or in many of these management protocol, you involve a management plan, you involve a control plan, and then you go to read something that is in the data plan. But the process is so inefficient that you cannot really get a huge volume of data, and you cannot get it practically enough, with enough performance. Doing telemetry means thinking a data path, building a data path that is capable of not only measuring everything realtime, but also sending out that measurement without involving anything else, without involving the control path and the management path so that the measurement becomes really very efficient and the data that you stream out becomes really usable data, actionable data in realtime. So telemetry is clearly the first one, is important. One that you honestly, we had built but we weren't thinking this was going to have so much success is what we call Bidirectional ERSPAN. And basically, is just the capability of copying data. And sending data that the card see to a station. And that is very very useful for replacing what are called TAP network, Which is just network, but many customer put in parallel to the real network just to observe the real network and to be able to troubleshoot and diagnose problem in the real network. So, this two feature telemetry and ERSPAN that are basically troubleshooting feature are the two features that are beginning are getting more traction. >> You're talking about realtime things like telemetry. You know, the applications and the integrations that you need to deal with are so important, back in some of the previous start-ups that you done was getting ready for, say how do we optimize for virtualization, today you talk cloud-native architectures, streaming, very popular, very modular, often container based solutions and things change constantly. You look at some of these architectures, it's not a single thing that goes on for a long period of time, but it's lots of things that happen over shorter periods of time. So, what integrations do you need to do, and what architecturally, how do you build things to make them as you talk, future-proof for these kind of cloud architectures? >> Yeah, what I mentioned were just the two low hanging fruit, if you want the first two low hanging fruit of this architecture. But basically, the two that come immediately after and where there is a huge amount of radio are distributor's state for firewall, with micro-segmentation support. That is a huge topic in itself. So important nowadays that is absolutely fundamental to be able to build a cloud. That is very important, and the second one is wire rate encryption. There is so much demand for privacy, and so much demand to encrypt the data. Not only between data center but now also inside the data center. And when you look at a large bank for example. A large bank is no longer a single organization. A large bank is multiple organizations that are compartmentalized by law. That need to keep things separate by law, by regulation, by FCC regulation. And if you don't have encryption, and if you don't have distributed firewall, is really very difficult to achieve that. And then you know, there are other applications, we mentioned storage NVME, and is a very nice application, and then we have even more, if you go to look at load balance in between server, doing compression for storage and other possible applications. But I sort of lost your real question. >> So, just part of the pieces, when you look at integrations that Pensando needs to do, for maybe some of the applications that you would tie in to any of those that come to mind? >> Yeah, well for sure. It depends, I see two main branches again. One is the cloud provider, and one are the enterprise. In the cloud provider, basically this cloud provider have a huge management infrastructure that is already built and they want just the card to adapt to this, to be controllable by this huge management infrastructure. They already know which rule they want to send to the card, they already know which feature they want to enable on the card. They already have all that, they just want the card to provide the data plan performers for that particular feature. So they're going to build something particular that is specific for that particular cloud provider that adapt to that cloud provider architecture. We want the flexibility of having an API on the card that is like a rest API or a gRPC which they can easily program, monitor and control that card. When you look at the enterprise, the situation is different. Enterprise is looking to at two things. Two or three things. The first thing is a complete solution. They don't want to, they don't have the management infrastructure that they have built like a cloud provider. They want a complete solution that has the card and the management station and there's all what is required to make from day one, a working solution, which is absolutely correct in an enterprise environment. They also want integration, and integration is the tool that they already have. If you look at main enterprise, one of a dominant presence is clearly VMware virtualization in terms of ESX and vSphere and NSX. And so most of the customer are asking us to integrate with VMware, which is a very reasonable demand. And then of course, there are other player, not so much in the virtualization's space, but for example, in the data collections space, and the data analysis space, and for sure Pensando doesn't want to reinvent the wheel there, doesn't want to build a data collector or data analysis engine and whatever, there is a lot of work, and there are a lot out there, so integration with things like Splunk for example are kind of natural for Pensando. >> Eccellent, so wait, you talked about some of the places where Pensando doesn't need to reinvent the wheel, you talk through a lot of the different technology pieces. If I had to have you pull out one, what would you say is the biggest innovation that Pensando has built into the platform. >> Well, the biggest innovation is this P4 architecture. And the P4 architecture was a sort of gift that was given us in the sense that it was not invented for what we use it. P4 was basically invented to have programmable switches. The first big P4 company was clearly Barefoot that then was acquired by Intel and Barefoot built a programmable switch. But if you look at the reality of today, the network, most of the people want the network to be super easy. They don't want to program anything into the network. They want to program everything at the edge, they want to put all the intelligence and the programmability of the edge, so we borrowed the P4 architecture, which is fantastic programmable architecture and we implemented that yet. It's also easier because the bandwidth is clearly more limited at the edge compared to being in the core of a network. And that P4 architecture give us a huge advantage. If you, tomorrow come up with the Stuart Encapsulation Super Duper Technology, I can implement in the copper The Stuart, whatever it was called, Super Duper Encapsulation Technology, even when I design the ASIC I didn't know that encapsulation exists. Is the data plan programmability, is the capability to program the data plan and programming the data plan while maintaining wire-speed performance, which I think is the biggest benefit of Pensando. >> All right, well Silvano, thank you so much for sharing, your journey with Pensando so far, really interesting to dig into it and absolutely look forward to following progress as it goes. >> Stuart, it's been really a pleasure to talk with you, I hope to talk with you again in the near future. Thank you so much. >> All right, and thank you for watching theCUBE, I'm Stu Miniman, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(logo chiming) >> Presenter: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a cube conversation. >> Hi, welcome to this cube conversation. I'm Lisa Martin. And I'm pleased to welcome back one of our cube alumni from Dell Technologies. Joining me right now is Jim Clancy, the SVP of Global Data Protection Solutions Dell. Jim, great to have you back on theCUBE. >> Hey, Lisa, thanks for having me. Looking forward to our conversation. >> Though we're nice. So we're very appropriately socially distance as you can tell California East Coast. So 2020 has been a quite a year, right? We're only about halfway through it, Jim. But some of the things that I noticed from Dell Technologies is these three big waves that Dell Technologies that we want to ride these in 2020. And those waves are Cloud, VMware, and Cyber Recovery. >> That's right. >> Talk to me about these three waves and what's happening with those currents in this pandemic time. >> Yeah, it's really interesting. So back in February we, we actually had Dave Volante had a video that we shared with our teams at FRS, which is the global sales organization meeting. And we were talking about some of the things that we're seeing from our customers and how they're picking up. And those are the key waves that our teams have been focused on. But most importantly, these are what our customers are asking us about. These are the things that are really important to them, that are allowing them to know modernize in, some of the challenges that that have really kind of taken off and gotten, quite frankly, worse in the current environment. So yeah, we, we kind of jumped on the wave that Dave kind of brought forward to us at FRS and now we've been riding those with our customers. And if you can imagine that they're pretty choppy with some of the change in the environment that we're in today, but they certainly allow someone like Dell DPS to be able to be really successful if you write them correctly. >> Alright, so let's break down those choppy waves right now from a cloud perspective. So many organizations in every industry globally, are living in a multicloud world, whether it's strategic, and some of it is or by acquisition. And they're running traditional workloads, they're running emerging workloads. How is cloud now even more important from a data protection perspective? And what is Dell Technologies doing to help them in this navigate this multicloud world? >> Yeah, well, I think a couple a couple of different things. First, is that before COVID, and before the pandemic, customers were obviously living in a multicloud world they were picking applications choosing. Is it easier, is it faster to deploy in the cloud. And now with with the situation that we're in, customers are accelerating their adoption. So if you look at some of the announcements that come out from like Microsoft. The Microsoft's cloud businesses is just exploding right now. And a lot of it has to do with our customers are not going back to the data center, they don't have access. And the world has changed that their focus so much on work from home, that the quickest way to get going is to adopt the cloud. And so we're seeing a massive uptick on that. It's good news for Dell Data Protection, because there's a couple of key things that happen. When customers take some of these applications and put them in the cloud. They certainly open themselves up for some challenges, or they certainly open up with a cost really takes off if they're not leveraging an efficient data protection solution. So the first, first and foremost customers are adopting and leveraging the cloud more and more. And then about I think the numbers around 70% of customers today are looking to optimize their cloud experience. So they want to use it more, but they definitely understand that they're spending a tremendous amount of dollars out there and they want to optimize it. So we've had an example with a customer that wanted to leverage the cloud more. But the challenge was the cost just wasn't working out for them. And 60% of that cost that they felt they needed to update was their backup and archive. And so we went in, worked with them talked about how we could optimize that environment, to the extent that we could cut their costs in half. So there's a there's definitely a need, customers are going to continue working and going to the cloud, but they need an optimized, efficient Data Protection Solution. And Dell is the only one that can deliver that. >> And speaking of cost for a second, let's pivot on that. Because these days, it seems like the financing for Data Protection Solutions is as important as protecting the data itself. So when your customers are coming to you guys say, hey help us out, we need to leverage out more but we need to do some cost effectively. What are some of the the flexible financing options or even incentives and offers that Dell Technologies is delivering to it's customers? >> Yes. So we've been offering a lot to our customers for years in terms of flexible financing, we have the best finance organization sales financing organization in the world which is our DFS group. And what we've been able to do is start to look at more about how can we offer a subscription pricing to our customers flex on demand. But then on top of that, is we announced another program, which allows customers to extend their payment terms, right? It allows them to, zero dollar finance. So as the customer are really kind of focused on preserving their cash. We are bringing to market solutions, not only with DFS, that makes it more flexible from a consumption standpoint. But we're also looking at how do we kind of bundle some of our solutions together. How do we become more aggressive and help our customers get through this because cash is king for a lot of our customers today. And if we can help them preserve that cash it gives them the flexibility, they're going to remember that. Right? They're going to, they're going to want to partner with us more, they're going to see that we're stepping up to help them get through this difficult time. So, flex on-demand subscription pricing, those are the big things that we're starting to see more and more from our customers and Dell is here to help them with stepping up and helping our customers when it comes to the financing. >> Then imagine that applies not just to the Cloud environment, but also the VMware environment. That's another wave. Talk to me a little bit more about that wave and how you're helping customers to be able to protect their VMware workloads across the entire VMware stack. >> Yeah, and just let me add one thing to, from a when I talk about the financing, it's, it's whether someone runs stuff on-prem or in the cloud. So I know you mentioned that it's it's flexible pricing options across on-prem or off-prem, it doesn't matter. For us, it's a multicloud world and wherever you want to run it, you want to have flexible consumption models. But the topic of VMware which is just an amazing opportunity that we're working together with VMware and the partnership could never be any stronger than it is today is that VMware is working and growing, in every one of our customer environments today. And as they grow, they really need a strong Data Protection Solution that's going to bring governance, that's going to have scale, that's going to have cyber, Cybersecurity on it, that's going to give them that flexibility to be able to protect these workloads. And VMware wants to continue to virtualize more and more workloads, databases. And to do that, you need to be able to say that you can protect them recover that data. So customers are really pressing VMware and VMware is coming to Dell Data Protection to say, look, we're becoming more and more critical, and they've always been critical in the data center. But we really need to partner with you to be able to deliver a full experience and offer that protection that is necessary for a customer's mission-critical environment. So VMware and Dell DPS, I mean, together, no one can compete with us. It's actually exciting where we are today. But most importantly, some of the things that we're doing moving forward. >> And one of the obvious advantages that Dell Technologies has with respect to VMware is joint VMware engineering and that deep integration. Tell me a little bit more about that, and how that is an advantage when you're talking and sell situations with your customers? >> Yeah, it's a. So I always say that probably about 18 months ago, we really started to put together this joint development start to get really tighter from a technology standpoint, because you can't just show up one day and say, Hey, I'm the best in this market, right? You really need to be building, something and get to a point and so about 18 months ago, I tell customers, that's when Dell and VMware really came together and started doing more in terms of strategic solutions. And it's paying off for us. So if you think about VMC, very critical, VMware Cloud, very very important for their future and their success. We were the first to market with that integration. If you think of Kubernetes, and the importance of Kubernetes. Moving forward, we were first integrated with that with VMware, so our engineering investments are paying off. And this is just the beginning of where that relationship is going to be. As we exit this year, our solutions together will be second to none in the market. And quite frankly, there'll be no one else left in the market that can compete with us from a technology and that's good, not just for our customers and our partners, and not just good for Dell DPS. But most importantly, that's really important to VMware right? They're scaling, they're growing tremendously. They're the leader in this market, and they want to continue to own more of a customer experience. And to do that they need a data protection partner that can help them and so we got a great relationship going right now and it's only getting better. >> That's good to hear. So in terms of data protection, let's let's dig into that third wave, which was Cyber Recovery because one of the things that we know is happening during the pandemic is that cybersecurity issues are on the rise. We know that as technology advances, and it's used for good applications. The bad actors also have access to it. I was reading from the FCC the other day that just since March, there are about 1000 new domain names registered every day with COVID-19. There's malware that's easily dropped on a suspecting persons a endpoint because maybe it has a really entirely enticing title from the World Health Organization. What are you seeing in your customer environments with respect to Cyber Recovery? And is it is security now even more of an important factor given that this work from home situation is probably going to continue for some businesses for quite some time? >> Yeah, I think, our customers have a lot of different challenges now with with COVID-19. And one of them was how do you get your workforce working remotely. And sometimes you have to cut corners to get that done. And what that does is open you up for more challenges, more security breaches. And on top of that, is we're seeing the I call them the bad guys, the bad guys are out there right now attacking our customers more than they ever had. So, before COVID-19 ransomware was a big problem. And now it's, it's even worse. And so I think the bad guys see that they have an opportunity to go out there and really hurt some of these companies hold them, hold them for ransom, get some money from them, which is very unfortunate, but at the same time, that's the reality that we're living in. So before COVID-19, we had a massive customer acceptance, so looking at what we delivered from a Cyber Recovery Solution. And now since COVID-19, is about a 4,000% increase in ransomware attacks, we're seeing every one of our customers really starting to adopt the Cyber Recovery Vault that we delivered to the market today. Now we it's this isn't something new, right? We we've been building on this since about 2016. And our solution has gotten better and better and better, to now where absolutely, we've always been the leader in this market. But now we have such an incredible lead with our customers in terms of how we can help them in the challenges that are exacerbating in their install base. We're really in the right place at the right time. It's unfortunate for our customers, but at the same time, they have to protect their assets. They always have to be able to recover their their their assets or the business won't continue. So it's an unfortunate thing for them, but Dell is here to help take care of one of these problems that they have which is protecting their mission-critical assets. >> Right. And this mission-critical assets are on devices. They're in Cloud applications like office 365, or Salesforce business-critical, revenue-critical data. They're in a data center, they're in VMs. How are you helping customers kind of evaluate if they're in a situation now where they realize maybe we haven't put the emphasis into data protection that we need to? How do you help a customer sort of stack rank and prioritize knowing that the threat vectors are fairly holistic and get a solution from Dell Technologies implemented, and securing them as fast as possible? >> Yeah, it's a good it's a good question. It's kind of a hard one to answer because our customers have data everywhere. So it's a hard one for our customers to kind of figure it out. But what we can do is we can start in different places for them so we can work with them on assets that things that absolutely for them to restart their business, we have a solution that allows them or a way that we say look for you to get your business back up and running there's a critical rebuild there's things that absolutely need to be able to lay down your foundation before you even consider dropping assets, or any applications back out there. So that's like a first step of hey, let's at least size out how you get your critical rebuild up and running. But then there's other companies like big banks that say, well, I need all my customer information no matter what, and I need to recover that. So it's it can get a little complicated. Sometimes we have customers, because they have to figure out what assets they want to put in the vault and how do they want to recover that data. And what's the RPO RTO time but for us, we can work with them and say here's the critical rebuild. Here's the first step of getting your information back from the bad guys or back from wherever you're storing it today. But then on top of that, we can start to expand with them. And they can start to protect more and more things and add to the ball more and more the critical applications that they have out there. And, no one understands this better than us. And so it's good because we can help our clients size where they are today, we can help take a snapshot of their environment today. And then we can recommend what we think is step one, and depending on their appetite, depending on their urgency, we could take them from step one to step done, right? We can, we can cover all their assets, so we can start with their mission-critical and move down to other applications. So the good news for our customers, we have the only secure vault in the market. And we also have the expertise and the people to be able to help them understand how they can get going. >> Last question, Jim, for you in terms of the choices of the technologies that Dell Technologies offers to your customers, Dell has been the leader in the purpose-built backup of plan market. Since IDC invented that category, but the market is bifurcating, and we're seeing Integrated Data Protection Appliances IDPA, even though it's a smaller term, that market is growing faster. Talk to me about the different choices of technologies that you deliver to your customers? >> Yeah, I guess there's a couple ways to look at there's a traditional way of a customer building out their solution and that would be the traditional purpose-built backup appliance Data Domain with our software. And so they would kind of build that build on their own, they put the software in the hardware together, and that would be their solution. What we are seeing more and more is that customers are looking for that integrated appliance. And I'm happy to say that, our IDPA solution, which was a little bit behind getting to the market is now right in the center of the market and picking share right? We are easily outgrowing the market. This is something that we're putting our shoulder behind. We're pushing really high with our customers. Our customers are extremely happy. So thank you to the engineering team, the services team, the product management team that, really helped us get from where we were, say three years ago to where we are now. Now our customers are really pushing for that integrated experience, because they're flying to quality. There's a flight to quality right now, someone that might have multiple backup applications might have multiple hardware solutions. They're trying to get to one vendor, they're trying to get to one partner, they are trying to make this a simpler experience. And so from Dell, because we cover all the use cases that our customers have out there, they're looking at us as that one provider, that one vendor that can deliver on the full experience across their whole environment, not just maybe the VMware solution, maybe not just a couple of databases, maybe not just their Cloud applications. They want a vendor that can provide solutions. Across all of their workloads across all of their use cases, and no matter where the data sits in a remote office, on-prem in a data center or in the cloud, and that's where IDPA comes in, we can deliver a solution that covers all customers use cases, with the same experience from Dell, which is second to none. So that's where IDPA is exciting. That's where IDPA is growing up place in the market. And that's where teams have to really spend time helping customers understand how they can consolidate down to one vendor, which is Dell, and be able to cover all of their requirements. So it's pretty exciting time on what we're delivering from an IDPA standpoint. And we are clearly taking share on that market right now. >> Well Jim, thank you for joining me on theCUBE today talking about those three waves, Cloud, VMware, Cyber Recovery and how Dell is really helping your customers rapidly pivot in these turbulent waters to capitalize on some of the new opportunities that are clearly there, we appreciate your time, Jim. >> Yeah, thanks for having me and we're going to continue to ride the waves and be really successful. >> All right, for Jim Clancy, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBES conversation with Dell Technologies. (soft music)

>>live from San Francisco. It's the Q covering Micron Insight 2019 to You by Micron. >>We're back to Pier 27 in lovely San Francisco, Everybody. I'm Dave a lot with my co host, David Floy Er and you're watching the Cube, the leader and live tech coverage. Evan cursed Ellis here. He's a social digital influencer. First time in the Cube. Evan, Great to see you. >>Thanks for having me. First time's the best. >>You Very well. And it is beautiful. Out him in October is the best month in San Francisco. Way better way warmer than July. I mean, you live out here. Holy cow. All right, let's get right into it. You're just fresh off of mobile work. World Congress down in L. A. >>This morning. Yeah, five g on the brain's >>s. So what do we need to know about five g? You >>know, I think my big takeaway as an industry observer is that five g Israel, and it's now I mean, we've seen 5 10 years, maybe of hype, an expectation and marketing buzz and even spin. But I think we're now in the business of practical deployments, scaling rollouts of networks and that's, you know, as a industry observers, quite exciting. >>So what is five g mean for the average user? I mean, is it gonna be like going from dial up toe, high speed Internet or, you know, it's gonna be interesting. >>The average user, I think we'll experience, you know, like a 10 x increase in their current experience on mobile in terms of uploads and downloads and speed and Leighton see, And that kind of thing, which is super exciting, it's it's gonna blow people's mind. >>An ex stoked to get a 10 extra. When can I get this? >>It's when and it's where, right? I mean, if you look at how these networks are evolving, there are hundreds of thousands of small cells of base stations that have to be deployed naturally to get five G ubiquitous across the country. So it's it's when it's where it's how. But we're here. We're at the starting point and look for the next years and months ahead to see that riel attraction. >>If I look now when I travel around the country, I still have four G. I still have three g. I still have edge. I have a ll the old ones are still there, and it's taken forever, even just to get to 40. So isn't lesson. Isn't the rollout of this going to take a long time ago or 10 year horizon? >>I think, to get ubiquitous coverage indoor, outdoor, suburban, urban, rural It's going to take 10 years. But if you look at those hot spots that generate a lot of activity, whether it's, you know, indoor coverage in the Enterprise, whether it's, you know, the Bruins playing in Boston Garden I mean those air where five G is really going to come into play first and then it's going to sort of go outside of those urban dense areas. >>You mean like the fan experience in the fan experience in the venue >>is huge? I mean, if you go to any you know, baseball, basketball, football game, you know what the experience is like Pretty pretty bad, right? So horrible. So those kind of hot spots are ripe for five g like right away today. Now, >>so by the way, David, sometimes I get five g on my that's right, and I feel like it's fake. Five years like HD ready. What's that all about? Well, you know, >>these networks evolve, and so the carriers are maximizing for G, including biggest speed on four G and five. Gene is really if overlay to these existing networks. And so, as you get your next Samsung, you know five G enabled devices. Apple next year comes out with a five G iPad. You'll then begin to use. The service is as you use your existing device. >>Can you help us understand the fundamental architecture of five G? My understanding is it's, you know, no basis more distributed on. That's part of the reason why it's taking so long to roll out. But what do we need to know about that E? >>I think it's a brand new editor interface. So if you think about the current radio on for G, they reinvented the wheel with five G, which means you can support a huge number of endpoints of I o. T devices of wearables of home access points. And so it enables almost a 10 to 100 ex war devices in terms of scale. So while the end user may think this is business as usual, what's really happening on the network side is pretty revolutionary And once the networks are primed and built and ready, what's gonna be happening on the device side is gonna be really extraordinary. You're talking about a K A video on a mobile device or augmented reality through in new kinds of glasses. And so it's sort of a chicken and a little bit. You know what? She's gonna come first, the network or the incredible new devices. So we're seeing now the network's being put in place for those wave of devices, >>which makes sense. Device manufactures don't want over rotate into something that's not quite. >>But if you look at the network, it's you have to have a lot of device is very close to each other. I in my area that all these the holdings holding these hearings about radiation, everything else like that, which is never, never really a problem unless you're underneath. >>Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of fun, you know, fear, uncertainty around five G. >>Yeah, and I'm just the practical thing. You gotta have all of these lots of these very close in the The exposure to having a gap of some sort is pretty high. >>Yeah, I think it's an issue of frequencies as well. Right now, we're seeing very high frequency five deployed for those dense urban suburban areas. We're going to Seymour Spectrum rolled out next year. The FCC is putting out new auction so you'll see lower bit rate five g rolled out for suburban and rural areas. So it's a It's a work in progress, but the fact that we have first devices first silicon for software first networks. It's kind of a big inflection >>point, but some bumps. I'm inferring this ATT the back end. It could be a lot of machine to machine communications, so that's kind of sets up this whole coyote and an edge discussion. And of course, that means more data. What can you tell us about how that's going to affect really the amount of data and how we use that data? >>The data explosion is extraordinary. I mean, we experience this as early adopters here at the table every day, and so no one's ever said, you know, my network is fast enough is good enough, secure enough. There's always that insatiable appetite now, given the connected world in which we live. And so it's not just the network speed it's the input output of the device. I mean, we have Leighton see that frankly, from these networks operates at the speed of the human brain, you know, in in milliseconds, in terms of input output on the network. And so that's really gonna change the user experience to when the way you do gaming or collaboration or video conferencing video calls and all these service is we use today will be much more tuned to how we live and work. >>So dial upto high speed Internet obvious Are you want? I'll update you say you go back. I'm also I know remember this stuff But that was a significant change. Obvious step change, really a step function. Exactly. But subsequent to that it was I could doom. Or but it was just so much more data and acts were flowing through the network that it really didn't change the experience a little bit. Maybe, actually, you know, be careful. I watched the Patriots game on the plane on the NFL app on the way out here, which could probably have done a year or two ago, but so that was that's goodness. But generally speaking, the experience is substantially similar. Will you said a 10 X before? Will the user actually see a difference like that kind of dial up to high speed step function? Or is it going to be sort of a slow roll? >>I think the user will see a big a big improvement because of the efficiencies of the network and the way in which data is kind of throttled and limited. Today, with three and four for G networks, I think more interestingly, is how businesses and enterprises and sm bees will consume. Five g. I mean, there are a lot of antiquated networks out there, whether it's legacy wired Network, D S. L. Whether it's, you know, crappy WiFi that we all experience in hotel rooms, five g has the opportunity to come in and really displace all of that legacy crap that that's in our networks and give users in those enterprises hotels, venues, a brand new experience. And when's the last time you had a bad hotel? WiFi, for the idea of, of getting rid of a legacy network and delivering those high speed service is from a public network. It's her Private networking is a really exciting opportunity for the carriers and, really, for the B two B enterprise. >>Well, the technology suppliers are pumped about their pumped and their >>look at their profitability, their revenue, their sales. Everything's up. >>Well, the thing is that that is, the carriers, like you say they have no choice but to remain competitive. They have to consume. They have to spend more >>on what a great time in the mobile industry. I mean to be a consumer of devices and service is, I mean, the consumers that businesses are winning in this march. >>So tell us about Mobile World Congress. What was the vibe? It was >>very buzzy. I mean, there were lots of Rhea World applications on display, whether wearable devices for health care and hospital T applications. There were examples of remote controlled autonomous shipping and autonomous trucking monitored, supervised with five G. There were examples of vehicle to vehicle communications for accident, safety purposes being deployed in the next generation of cars baked in, and so five. He's gotten very practical. Now it's like, Okay, we've built this network, we have silicon, we have software we have storage memory out of we deploy it so is very focused on deployment usage and an application. >>If you take that one of automotive, for example, if you're a god, health and life on your If you If you can't guarantee that you've got connectivity toe, what's the value wouldn't do? For example, wouldn't you prefer vehicle to vehicle direct communication, as opposed to going outside to some much faster? >>Exactly. Exactly. And there's a new technology called vehicle Be two extra people vehicle standards that are being baked so that that's not funny. It's based on the five of the family of standards, and so one of the technologies within the five G family is vehicle to vehicle. Qualcomm's doing some amazing work there. And once the automobile manufacturers baked that technology into cars, the car manufacturers can then build in vehicle avoidance, vehicle collision technology and so forth. >>So I'm worried that was some talk about a I right? I mean, lots of talk that mobile world Congress, you're gonna hear a lot about here. What about the ecosystem that's emerging to support five G? There's gotta be a whole value chain specialized chips. I mean, obviously, micron, you know? Yeah, you know, the >>whole supply chain has to come together and Micron powering all of these devices with memory and storage to the application developers to the O E ems to the network providers. And so that ecosystem is getting really baked, fully baked and and integrated. And that was on display at MWC, too. So all these things are coming together, and I think it's pretty exciting. As a long time skeptic like yourself. I saw some real world. >>I say, I'm excited about it. I just I'm just not holding my breath. Don't >>hold your breath. Not >>recommended weight. That's great, Evan. Thanks very much for coming in. Thanks so much. Appreciate your insights. Thanks so much. Thank you for watching. Keep it right there. But it will be back from Micron Insight 2019 from San Francisco. You're watching the Cube?

>> Announcer: Live, from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCUBE! Covering Nutanix.NEXT 2019. Brought to you by Nutanix. >> Welcome back everyone to theCUBE's live coverage of Nutanix.NEXT. We are at the Bella Center in Copenhagen, Denmark. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, alongside of Stu Miniman, of course. We are joined by a good friend of theCUBE, Ray Wang, principal analyst and CEO of Constellation Research. Thank you so much for returning to theCUBE. >> Hey, how you doing? Good morning! >> Good morning, good morning! >> Good morning! (laughing) >> Good morning! >> I don't know. I get all my accents wrong out here. >> (laughing) So, you got a shout out on the main stage this morning, from Monica Kumar, congratulations on that. She talked about you and your research on the infinite role of computing. You also do a lot with the future of work. I know that that is really right in your wheelhouse right now. What are you hearing, what are you seeing, what kinds of conversations are you having that are interesting you? >> Yeah, so, this infinite computing option, it's one of the that we're talking about, the fact that you can scale out forever, right? And the problem that's holding us back has been technical debt, right? So all that legacy that everyone's got to figure out. It's like, my connections, my server, my disk-rack recovery, my disaster recovery, my backup, everything. It's a pain in the butt. And I'm still trying to get onto the cloud. So on that end, we're like, okay, all this stuff is holding us back, how do we get there? Now, the future of work is a little bit different. We're seeing a very very different set of work. People have talked about where we are the gig economy, but that's just one aspect of it. Everything is being decomposed into microservices. Large processes are becoming smaller and smaller microservices, they're being reusable, well our work and tasks are following the same way. We're getting smaller and smaller tasks, some are more repetitive, some are going to be automated, and it's really about where we actually find the difference between augmentation of humanity, and full automation, and that's where the next battle's going to be. >> Yeah, Ray, some of the discussions we've been having this week, is how do we really simplify the environment? The balance I hear from customers, on the one hand, they're always like, I don't have enough money, I don't have enough personnel, on the other hand, oh my gosh, that full automation sounds like you're going to put me out of a job. We know we're not putting everybody out of work in the next couple of years. There are challenges; we worry about the hollowing out of the center of the economy, but here, what Nutanix is trying to do, of course, is, I don't want to have to thrive in that complexity anymore, I want to be able to drive innovation, keep up with that, take advantage of that unlimited resources out there, so, where do you see, you've been here at the show, what are you hearing from the customers here? Anything different in Europe versus back in North America that you'd share about that journey onto the changing roles? >> Oh it's a great point. It's about simplifying everything where you can, it's about areas of automation where they make sense. Here in Europe it's slightly different because a lot of the focus in Europe has been about cost and efficiency, followed by of course regulatory. Those have been the two drivers. And they've been battling that in order to be, even they will look at some level of innovation. Where in the US, people are head on doing innovation, regulatory and operational efficiency at the same time. So that creates a very very different environment. But what we have noticed are some patterns, especially when we look at automation and AI; there are four areas out of seven where we see a lot more automation that's happening. The first one is massively repetitive tasks, those are things, yeah, got to get that out of the way, we don't do this very very well. The second one is really thinking about massive nodes of interaction. When you're connected to multiple places, multiple organizations, multiple instances, that's something where we start to get overwhelmed, and then of course, there's lots of volume. If you've got lots of volume or requests that are coming through, you can't possibly handle that, and that's a place where we see a lot of machine scale. And the last piece is really when you have to scale, humans don't scale very well. However, it's actually not a hollowing out of the middle; it's actually a hollowing out of the ends in a very, very real end, because really really simple tasks go away, super complex tasks go away, and the middle actually remains, and the middle is things that are complex that cannot be recreated by math, they're also areas that require a lot of creativity, humans make the rules, we break the rules, and then the last part is really fine motor skills and presence, the machines still aren't as good. So we still have some hope. So the middle stays, it's the hollowing out of the ends, the high end jobs and the low end jobs are the ones where we're going to see a lot of risk. >> So what does that mean? So we have, leaving the middle there, and as you said, the high end jobs and the low end jobs go away, but what does that mean in terms of the skills? In terms of what employers are looking for, in terms of what they need in their prospective applicants and hirees. >> That's a great point. Soft skills are important; it's the qualitative skills that become even more important, it's also being able to manage and orchestrate the hard skills; because you don't necessarily have to know how to do the calculation, you have to just know which algorithm to apply. >> Okay, and then also, these soft skills of managing people, I'm assuming too? Because computers are not so good at that either. >> Yes. Soft skills are managing people, but also manage the human and machine equation that's going to happen. Because we have to train the machines, the machines aren't going to know that level of intuition, and there's a large amount of training that's going to happen over time. >> All right. So, Ray, one of the things Nutanix is doing is, as they've been transforming to not only subscription, software's always been at their core, but they're starting to do not just infrastructure software, but application software. I know you live in that world quite a lot, so when you hear Nutanix talking about building databases, delivering these services, it's something that I look at, Amazon does some of that, but for the most part they're infrastructure and build on top of us. How do you think, how is Nutanix doing, what are some of the challenges for them, going up against some of the bellwethers out there in tech, and all the open source projects that are out there. >> So the challenge is always going to be, there is a one dominant player in every market. And what they're providing is an alternative to allow the orchestration of not having that, not only that dominant player, but a choice. So in every single market, they're focused on giving users choice, and giving the ability to aggregate, and bring everything into one single plane. That is tough to do, right? And the fact that they see that as their big hairy audacious goal, that's impressive. If you said they were going to do this three years ago, I wouldn't have believed them. >> Well yeah, I think back to, remember almost 10 years ago, VMware tried to get into applications, they bought Zimbra, they bought a few others. Cisco did like 26 adjacencies, they were going to take over video and do all these things, and we've seen lots of failures over the years. They refocused on their core, was a big thing that I heard, that the users seem to be excited about. Are there areas that you're find especially interesting as to where Nutanix is poking? >> So, I would say that Nutanix three years ago was a little bit sleepy. They got comfortable, they did the stuff that they did really well, and it feels like, maybe about 12 months ago, Dheeraj had a different vision. Like something snapped, something hit, he said this isn't working, we're going to change things, and we've seen a whole bunch of new talent come into play. We've also seen a huge expansion of what they're trying to do, and a cleanup of all those side projects that were all going on before. So I think they've actually honed in on, okay, if we can simplify this piece, this is a money-winning business for some time, and they're talking about 80% margins last quarter, I mean that's huge, and that's just trying to save customers money, and make their lives simpler. >> Do you think that they have the messaging right? Because, I mean, they're going to this Thoreauvian/Emersonian idea of simplify, simplify, simplify, and it does resonate, of course! What customer doesn't want a simpler computing experience? But do you think that they are reaching the right people, and they have obviously very passionate customers, but are they getting into new businesses. >> I think they're getting to the businesses that their customers are asking them to, those adjacencies are huge, I think and when you think about cleaning up technical debt, all that legacy debt that you actually have to fix, I mean, this is where you begin. It's so hard to make that cloud journey to begin with, it's even harder to carry all that legacy with you. And we're going to see a lot more of this going forward. >> All right. So, Ray, talk a little bit about, I loved an event you did last year, the people's centered digital future. Help explain to our audience what this is about, and where you're taking it again this year. >> So that event was a one-time event. We were celebrating the 70th anniversary of the United Nations founding, we were celebrating almost 50 years of the internet, and 50% of the world being connected to the internet. And part of the reason that was an important event was, we really felt that there was a need to get back to the roots of where the internet had begun, and more importantly, talk about where we are today in the world of privacy. One of the biggest challenges we have in the a digital world is that your personal data, your genomics, all this information about you is being brokered for free. And what we have to do is take that back. And by taking that back, what I mean is, we've got to make all these rights, property right. If we can make that a property right, we can leverage the existing rules and legislation that's there, and we can actually start paying people for that data through consent, and giving people that ability, on consent to data, could create lots of things, from universal basic income, to a brand new set of data economy that equalizes the playing field, while keeping the large tech giants. >> There's some of those big journeys that we went on, you talk about the internet, this year's 50th anniversary of the first walking on the moon, and you look at how entire countries rallied together, so much technology was-- >> Yeah, look at India. >> Spun off of what they've done there, it's like we need some rallying cries in today's day and age to solve some of these big day and age. Is that AI? Where are some of the big areas that you see tech needing to drive forward in the next decade? >> I think the big area's going to be around decentralization, giving individuals more empowerment. We've got large, big tech companies, that are, I'd say, imbalanced. We start companies right away, building monopolies on day one, and we don't open up those markets. And the question is, how do we create a level playing field for the individual to be to compete, to bring a new idea, and to innovate, if that's continuously stifled by big technology companies without an opportunity, we're in trouble. And so that starts by making data a property right, to the personal data. It starts by also creating marketplaces for that data, and those marketplaces have to have regulations, similar to capital market flows. The way treat exchanges, we treat marketplaces, we need to do the same thing with the way we do with data, and then the third piece, there has to be some level of a tax, that goes to all these data economies, so that they can fund the infrastructure and the watch dogs that are there. Now this is coming from a free market, I'm a free market capitalist, okay? I can't stand regulation, but I also realize that it's so important that we have a fair market. >> But do you, we know so much about how Americans are so much more cavalier about their privacy than even Europeans, what will it take to galvanize Americans to care about those little crumbs that they're leaving on the internet, that is the data that you say should be a property right, that we should be paid for? >> I think it's going to start with companies actually take, and do the right thing, where they actually give them that opportunity to monetize that information. >> Will they do that? >> I think the new set of startups are starting to do that, because they're looking at the risk that's being posed, at Facebook and Google and Amazon, on the anti-trust, DOJ, FCC, they're all coming in at the same time, the FTC, they're all wondering, do we break these companies up or not? The short answer is, I don't think they're going to, because we're competing with China, and when you're looking at that scale of data, where Amazon's transactions are only 1/10 of Ali Baba's? That's huge. So the consolidation has to happen, but we need to create a layer that actually democratizes and creates a fair trading play. >> And those startups, you think, can compete with established players? >> I think once we set the roles, and the ground rules, I think people are going to be able to do that, but once you free that data, what are we competing on now? You have to pay for my consent, you have to earn my business, you can't trade it for free, or just say, "Hey look, you are the product." That changes everything. >> Rebecca: Yeah, that's a good point. >> Ray, I know you spend a lot of time talking to, and giving advice to some of the leaders in technology, you're welcome to get into some specifics about Nutanix, or some of the cloud players, but what are some of the key themes, what are people getting right, and what are they still doing wrong? >> Okay, so theme number one, this is going to be a multicloud hybrid world for a long time. Anybody that's bucking the multicloud trend, they've missed the point, right? Because we want portability in data, there's only two or three players in every single market, if I can't move my data, my workloads, and my IO in and out, then you've actually created vendor lock-in from hell. And I think customers are going to protest against that. The second one, and you guys are probably following this trend a lot, is really about AI ethics and design principles for AI. So what is ethical AI? We've got five things that are important: The first one is make sure it's transparent. See the algorithms, see what they write. Second one, make sure it's explainable. Hey, bias is not a bad thing, so if I'm discriminating against redheads, with, left-handed, and that happened to like, I don't know, Oracle, fine. But, if that was unintended, and you're discriminating against that, then we have to get rid of that, right? And so we have to figure out how to reduce that kind of bias, if it's unwanted bias. If you discover that you're discriminating, and not being inclusive, you've got to make sure that you address that. So then the next part is, it's got to be reversible. And once you have that reversibility, we also make sure that we can train these systems over time. And then the last piece is, Musk could be right! Musk could be right, the machines might take over, but if you insert a human at the beginning of the process, and at the end of the process, you won't get taken over. >> I want to hear about what the future of work looks like for Ray Wang. You are on the road constantly, you are (laughs) you are moving your data from one place, you are everywhere, all the time. So what do you have on next, what's exciting you about your professional life? >> I think the challenge's that we are living in a world where there's too much information, too much content. And you guys say this all the time, right? Separating the signal from the noise. And people are willing to pay for that signal. But that is a very very tough job, right? It's about the analysis, the insights, and when you have that, people don't want to read through your reports. They don't want to watch through the videos. They just want to call you up and say, "Hey, what's going on?" And get the short version of it. And that's what's making it very interesting, because you would expect this would be in a chat bot, it'd be in a robo advisor, doesn't work that way. People still want the human connection, especially given all that data out there, they want the analysis and insights that you guys provide, that's very very important, but even more important right now, it's really about getting back to those relationships. I think people are very careful about the relationships they're keeping, they're also curating those relationships, and coming back to spending more time. And so we're seeing a lot more of in-person meetings, in-person events, very very small, curated conversations, and I think that's coming back. I mean that's why we do our conference every year, as well, we try to keep 200 to 300 people intimately together. >> Those human connections, not going away. (laughs) >> Nope, not going away, in an automated, AI, digital world! This is our post-digital future. >> That's excellent. Well Ray, thanks you so much for coming on theCUBE, it's always so much fun to talk to you. >> Hey, thanks a lot. >> High energy guy (laughs). >> Low energy. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman, we will have more from the Bella Center at Nutanix.NEXT coming up in just a little bit. (upbeat music)

>> from our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley. PALO ALTO, California It is a cute conversation, >> living welcome to this special Cuba conversation in Palo Alto, California We're here with our friends on Twitter and influences in the cloud computing edge and open source game. We have our distinguished power panel here talking about if every tech company, every company should be a tech company. And what does it mean in the air of a modern infrastructure? Police to have my kale with ct of everest dot org's from most Gatto's California Rob Hirschfeld, founder and CEO of Rock n Calling in From Where You Calling in from >> Austin, Texas. >> Austin, Texas. Good to have you and Mark Theo Who's with EJ Gravity brand New opportunity. Congratulations calling in Las Vegas. Thanks for coming in, guys. Thanks for spending the time on this cube power panel from the influencers. Always great to see you guys on Twitter with this morning. I woke up, was very active at a Crouch said earlier this morning. And Mark, you wrote a post that got my attention. So I think you hit a nerve that has been sparking around the Internets around the role of technology as couples, they're starting to rethink and building out there enterprise architectures in their businesses. And we're seeing some signals around cybersecurity. Dev Ops certainly has been kind of banging on this drum with cloud computing, and that is that the role of technology plays as a percentage of the business part of the business. And your tweet was simply put, you said every bit. If every business needs to become a tech business, it business has to decide to own its own infrastructure something of that effect, which which triggered me because it's like That's a good question. It isn't just a part of an organization supporting it. Tech is becoming much more instrumental. So I want to get your reaction. What was the motivation behind that tweet? What's your what's your What was your point around it? >> Yeah, I mean, like many of my tweets, they're poorly worded and rushed out, so you know, it's not as clear as it could have been. But the real point of the message wasn't Thio highlight that a technology company has to be all in the cloud or has to own its infrastructure, but rather as a company makes a change towards becoming a technology company. I mean, if we go back Thio you know, 1995 or 1996 when we wanted a library, we went to the library. But now we have Google. We didn't know that Google was gonna become an online the equivalent of a library. But it became a digital company before anybody asked for that solution or anybody was running that kind of solution in some sort of company format and then changed it over. But, you know, Google Facebook, Microsoft's into it. Adobe PayPal. We could go down the long list there. All I t cos in the end, whether you call the technology that they built to run their businesses engineering with a CTO or I t. Is the material. They are in fact, large giant I t organizations that do what they do to make money. And so, as more companies look to make the change as digital transformation takes hold as more efforts are presented to try to get a closer handle on customers to build loyalty with customers, create new engagement models, maybe at the edge, even in traditional application environments, then companies have to make a decision about how they're going toe oh, nightie and whether they're goingto own any portion of the infrastructure of I T. And if they're going to do that, then I don't think that there's any question that they have to own it. Atleast following a model of the way the large providers and the facebooks, et cetera have provided for us cannot continue. In other words, what I've been known to say before, we can't continue to throw more hardware and people at the problem. >> My mike, I want to get your thoughts on this because one of the things that I know you have been involved a lot with security on dhe I t. As well in security, which which is a canary in the coal mine. For a lot of these architectural decisions are all kind of looking at how they hire and build on premise in house around tech stacks. And one of the things that became apparent to me at Amazon Aws reinforce, which is their Amazons first cloud security conference, was most of the ceases. When I talk privately was saying, we don't really believe in multi cloud. We have multiple clouds, but We're investing in people on certain stacks that fit our guiding principles of what we're building as a company. And they said we then go to the suppliers and saying, Here's the AP eyes we want you to support So you start to see the shift from being hiring the general purpose software vendors to come in and supply them with I t stuff Were hardware. As Mark pointed out, too much more, the customer saying No, no, this is our spec build that we built it. And so the trend that points to the trend of a reinvestment of building tech at the core of the business, which would imply to Mark's point around their tech companies. What's your thoughts on this? >> So a nuance. My answer. I think their tech enabled companies more than tech companies like Tech is enabling, whether it's Google or into it or pay power of the other companies. Mark mentioned technologies the base of their companies stack, um, then to go into your security portion, security has to be architected and embedded into the core solutions not bolted on after the fact with vendor solutions like it is today, and I think we've proven time and time again, including the capital one issue as a day or two ago that the current approaches are not working. And, uh, I agree with whomever See says you've been talking thio like being driving a P I integrations and be consumptive of them and telling what you need to build is a much better approach. Would you want to build a custom house with that actually talking to your builder and finding out later? What? What features and pictures have been installed in your home. But what do you wanna have a hand in that from the ground up? I think that's the mischief. >> Well, I want to come back to the capital. One point that's gonna be a separate talk track. So let's hold that thought. Rob, I want to go to you. Because StarBeat Joel, whose prolific on these threads you know, posting is nice Twitter cards on their um, he said, If you know, talk about leasing out extra capacity in a private data centers question Mark, you know, teasing out the question. And then Ben Haines responded and said, Why the hell would you want to be in that business when you have a real business to run again to what Mark was saying about, You know, Tech is going to be everywhere. Why should I even be in the data center? Because I don't want to be in that business. I gotta figure out Tech for the business. So Ben kind of brings that practitioner perspective. What's your thought? Because you're in the middle of this with the devil's movement. Bare metal, big part of it, Your thoughts. >> Yeah, And that's why we really focus on fixing the bear mental problem. Andi, I want to come back to where a bear metal fits with all this because you really can't get away from bare metal. I think the first question is really is every day to send is every business in I t business. And you know, not every business is a Google and strictly a nighty business. But what we're seeing with machine learning and Internet of things and just extension of what was traditionally siloed I t or data center, I t into everyday operations. You can't get away from the fact that if you're not able to take in the data, work with the data, manipulate and understand what your customers were doing. Then you are going to be behind. That's That's how you're gonna lose. You're gonna be out of business on. So I think that what we're doing is we're redefining business into not just a product that you're selling, but understanding how your customers air interacting with that product, what value they're getting from it. We really redefined supply chain in a very transformative way compared to anything else. And that's an I T enabled transformation. >> Ben brings up a good point, but the Brent wanted Friends Point is essentially teasing out mark and yourself a bare metal. All this stuff is complicated. Cut and make investments. Ben's teasing as What the hell business do you want to be in? I think that becomes a lot of this digital transformation. Conversation is Hey, Cloud is an easy decision. We were start up 10 years ago. We don't have I t. We have 50 plus people on growing. We're all in the cloud. That's fine for us. Dropbox started in the cloud. All these guys started class. It's easy as hell to do it. No, no debate there. But as you start thinking, Maurin Maur integration as a big enterprise which wasn't born in the cloud. This is where the transformations happening is what business? What the hell they doing? What's what's the purpose of their >> visit? Yeah, but the reality of you, a cloud infrastructure and how cloud infrastructure is structured does not really take you away from owning how you operate and run that infrastructure, right Amazons than an amazing marketing job of telling everybody that they're not smart enough to run their own infrastructure. And it's just not true way definitely let operations get very lax. We built up a lot of technical debt that we we need to be able to fix. An Amazon walked in and said, This is too hard for you. Let us take it off your plate. But the reality is people using Amazon still have toe owned their operations of that infrastructure. The capital one didn't doesn't get to just get a pass and say, I used Amazon. Oh, well, Too bad. Talk to them. You still own your infrastructure. >> Technically, it wasn't Amazons fall, so let's get the capital. One is this brings up a good point. Converged infrastructure was the Holy Grail, savior for the I t If you go back when we started doing Cuba interviews, stupidity and I would talk about converged is awesome. You got Nutanix kicked ass and grew like crazy. And so then you have the converge kind of meat's maker. When it sees the cloud, it's like, OK, I got great converged infrastructure, but yet the breach on capital one had nothing to do with a W s. It was basically an s three bucket that the firewall Miss configured. So it was really Amazon was a victim of its simplicity there. I mean, there's a >> I mean, this is this is what we're talking about with. To me with this tweet is that we need to look, we need to be better at operating the infrastructure we have, whether it's Amazon or physical assets on your premises. What we've really done is we've eroded our ability to manage those pieces well and do it in a way that builds on itself. And so as soon as we can get on improvement there, I mean, this this is where I went with this threat is if we can really improve our operational efficiency with the infrastructure we have, whether it's in the cloud on premises. You create benefits there than everything you build on top of that is gonna have a nim prove mint, right. We're gonna change the way we look at infrastructure. Amazons already done that on. We think about infrastructure in cloud terms, but I don't think that what they've done is the end destination. They just taught us how to be better running infrastructure. >> Well, it brings up that it brings up the point, and I have so Mike shaking his head to get his thought and mark on this. If I is that I tease problem our operational technologies problem because the world's not as simple as it used to be. It was not. It wasn't. It's not simple. You got edge. You get externally incest cloud players now multi cloud. So information technology teams and operational technology teams whose fault is it? Who is responsible thing? Could you just had a AI bots managing the the filtering and access to history buckets that could have been automated away? What, Whose problem was it? Operations, technology or I t. >> So that I think, to touch upon what Rob was talking about. There's my chain and technology, uh, from the classic sound byte is people process and technology. The core cause of literally every security breach, including capital one is a lack of sophisticated process and the root cause being people, and there's no amount of a I currently that can fix that. So you have to start focusing on your operational supply chain processes, which has, Rob said. Amazon has really solidified, and the company should look to emulate that forces trying to emulate the cloud infrastructure and some of your processed and your people challenges first. And then you can leverage the technology. >> Great point. Totally agree with you on that one >> market. Yeah, I would agree with everything that both Mike and Rob just said, and I would just add that we we don't have any choice but to face the future. That is, I t. And in order to provide the best possible service to our customers for our applications that even haven't been built yet, we have to look at the service is that are available to us and utilize them the best way possible and then find appropriate management and, like so correctly put it supply chain processes for managing them. So I've talked to people who are building unique cloud platforms internally to solve a specific business problem in ways that the individual clouds offered by the Big Three is an example can't do or can't do as well or can't do is cheaply. And the same thing applies to customers who are just using more than one of the big cloud providers. Even for some in some cases, for workloads. That might seem similar because each of the clouds provide a different opportunity associated with that specific set of requirements. And so we don't have any choice but to manage it better. And whether it's we make a choice to use it in our data center because it's more cost effective long term. And that's our single most important driver. Or whether we decide to leverage every tool in our tool belt, which includes a handful of cloud providers. And some we do our own, um, or we put it all in one cloud. It doesn't change our responsibility for owning it correctly, right? And my simple message really was that you have to figure out how to own and I'll steal from Mike again. You have to figure out how to own that supply chain. But more lower down more base is ifs. Part of that supply chain is delivering compute into a data center or environment that you own. Then you have to find the tools capabilities to ensure that you're not making the kind of mistakes that were made with capital or >> or, if you have tools are networks and tools you don't know and look at the quotes. So called scare with the China hack from Super Micro. That's a silly why chain problems? Well, it's on the silicon. So again, back to the process, people an equation. I think that's right on this brings us kind of through the next talking track. I want to get your thoughts on, which is cloud two point. Oh, I mean, I'm putting that term out there on Lee is a provocative way. Remember, Web to point. It works so well in debating about what it what it was. If one if cloud one data was Amazon Web service is, thank you very much. Public cloud. You could say cloud two point. Oh, our second inning would be just what happens next because you're seeing now a confluence of different dynamics edge, um, security, industrial edge. And then you know this all coming into on premises, which is hybrid and public, all working together. And then you throw multi cloud in there from a complexity standpoint. Do you wanna have support Microsoft's Stack, Azure Stack, Google and Amazon? This is this is the fundamental 2.0 question. Because things are more real time. Things are data specific. This costs involved. There's really network innovation needed what you guys thoughts on cloud to point out. >> I think the basic cloud 2.0, is moving to the shared responsibility model. And we should stop blaming people for teams for breaches as architectures become much more complex, including network computing, storage and in service orchestration layers like kubernetes, no one team or individual, individual or one team and manage all of that. So you're all responsible for infrastructure, scalability, performance and security. So I think it's the cultural movement more than the technology movement at the base of >> Rob. What's your definition? Cloud 2.0, from your perspective. >> Oh boy, I've been calling it Post Cloud Is my feeling on this? Yeah, it to me. It's it's about rethinking the way we automate. Um, you know, we really learned that we had to interact with infrastructure via automation and eliminate the human risk elements of. This doesn't mean that we have an automation is foolproof either It's not, but what? What I think we've seen is that people have really understood that we have to bring the type of automation and power that we're seeing in clouding the benefits because they're very riel. But back into everything that we do. There's no doubt in my mind that infrastructure is moving back into the environment. Where is what? Which is EJ from my perspective, and we'll see computing in a much more distributed way and those benefits and getting that right in the automation. Is this necessary to run autonomous zero touch infrastructure in environmental situations. That is gonna be justice transformative, freighted that that environment makes the cloud look easy. Frankly, >> Mark, what's your take? I want to get because, you know, security houses, one element get self driving cars. You got kind of a new front end of of EJ devices, whether it's a Serie Buy Me a song on iTunes, which has to go out to a traditional system and purchase a song. But that that Siri priest is different than what? The back end? Does this simply database, Get it? Moving over self driving cars, You're seeing all kinds of EJ industrial activity. You know, the debate of moving compute to the data. You got Amazon with ground station, all these new infrastructure physical activities going on that needs software to power it. What, you're in cloud to point. It seems to be a nice place not just for analytics, but for operational thing. Your thoughts on cloud to point out >> Well, I mean you you describe the opportunity relatively well. I could certainly go in. I've spent a lot of time going into detail about what EJ might mean and what might populate edge and why people would use it. But I think from if we just look at it from a cloud 2.0, standpoint, maybe I'm oversimplifying. But I would say, you know, if you add on to what Mike and Rob already so well pointed out is that it's best fit right, it's best fit from compute location, Thio CPU type Thio platform on, and historically, for I t they've always had to make pragmatic choice is that I believe, limit their ability on Helped to create Maur you know, legacy Tech that they have to manage, um on and create overhead tech debt, as they call it on DSO. I think judo. And in my book the best case for two Dato is that I can put best fit work where I need it when I need it for as long as I need it. >> That's that's really kind of gasp originals. Well, people got to get the software stood up. That's where I think Kubernetes has shown a nice position. I want to extend this track to another thought, another topic around networking. So if you look at the three pillars of computing computing mean industry, compute storage and networking, cloud one daughter, you can say pretty much compute storage did a good job. Amazon has a C two as three. Everything went great. Networking always got taken to the wood shed. You know, networking was getting, you know, people were pissing and moaning about networking. But if you look at kind of things were just talking about networking seems to be an area that this cloud 2.0, could innovate on. So wanna get each of your thoughts on? If you could throw the magic wand out there around the network doesn't take the same track as Dev ops that gets abstracted away because you see VM wear now doing deals. All the cloud providers they got they're going after Cisco with the networking PCC Cisco trying to be relevant. The big guys you got edge, which is power and network connection. You need those things. So what is the role of the network? And two point If you guys could wave the magic wand and have something magically happen or innovate, what would it be? >> Oh, wait, it's part complaining. It's your world. You know, it's ironic that I said this Thio competitors to my most previous company. Ericsson Company was away. They asked me after an event in San everything was a cloud expo. I just got off stage and the gentleman came up to me and asked me So mark you the way you talked about Cloud. I appreciate the comments you made yada, yada, yada. But what do you think about networking? And I said Well, network big problem right now is that you can't follow cloud assumptions as faras usage characteristics and deployment characteristics with networking. When that problem is solved, will have moved light years ahead in how people can use and deploy i t. Because it doesn't matter if you can define workload opportunity in 30 minutes on an edge device somewhere or on a new set of data centers belonging to Google or 10 Cent or anybody else. If you can't treat the network with same functionality and flexibility and speed to value that, you can the cloud then, um, it's Unfortunately, you're really reducing your opportunity and needlessly lengthening the time to value for whatever activity it is. You're really >> so network, certainly critical in 2.0, terms have absolutely that Mike any any thoughts there? >> So I think you know, there's there's easy answers to this that are actually the answer. You know, I P v six was the answer from a couple years ago, and that hasn't solved in the fantasy of the solved. All the problems, just like five G is not gonna magically transform our edge infrastructure into this brilliant network. The reality is, networking is hard and it's hard because there's a ton of legacy embedded stuff that still has to keep working. You can't just, you know, install a new container on container system and say, I've now fixed networking. You have to deal with the globally interconnected MASH insistence. I think when we look at networking, we have to do it in a way that respects the legacy and figures out migration strategies. One of the biggest problems I see that a lot of our technology stacks here is that they just assume we're gonna pave over the problems of yesteryear, nor them and with network, when you don't get that benefit, what you described with cloud networking, never living up the potential, it's because cloud networking isn't club networking. It's it's, you know, early days of the Internet. Networking is still what we use today. It's not. It's not something you can just snap your fingers and disrupt. >> Well, I mean, networking had two major things that were big parts of a networking and who build networks knows you provisioned them and you have policy stuff that runs on them, right? You moving paintings from A to B, then you got networks you don't own right so that's kind of pedestrian, old thinking. But if you want to make networks programmable to me, it just seems like they just seem to be so much more there that needs to be developed, not just moving package. Well, >> you just said it's traditional. Networks were built first, and the infrastructure was then built around them or leveraging them, so you need to take like in zero. Trust paper. When Bugsy Siegel built Las Vegas, he built the town first and then put the roads around the infrastructure. So you need to take that approach with networking. You need to have the core infrastructure of first and then lay down the networking around to support it. And, as Mark said, that needs to be much more real time or programmable. So moving from ah, hardware to find to a software to find model, I think, is how you fix networking. It's not gonna be fixed by a new protocol or set of protocols or adding more policies or complexity to it, >> so you see a lot of change then, based on that, I'd take away that you see change coming to networking in a big way because Vegas we're gonna build >> our if it has to happen. The current way is not working. And that's why we need the bottlenecks. Wherever >> Mark you live in is the traffic's brutal. But, you know, still e gotta figure out, You know, they got some more roads. The bill change coming. What are your thoughts on the change coming with this networking paradigm >> show? I mean, there are a few companies in the space already. I'm going to refuse to name anyway at this point because one of them is a partner of my new company, not my new company, but the new company I work for and I don't want to leave them out of the discussion. But there are several companies in the space right now that are attempting to do just then just that from centralized locations, helping customers to more rapidly deploy network services to and from cloud or two and from other data centers in a chain of data centers. Programmatically as we've talked about. But in the long run, your ability to lay down networking from your office without having to create new firewall rules and spend months on on contract language and things like that on being able to take a slice of the network you already have and deploy it on DDE, not have to go through the complex Mpls or Or VPN set ups that are common today on defectively reroute destinations when you want to or make new connections when you need to. Is far as I'm concerned, that's vital to the success of anything we would call a cloud two point. Oh, >> well, we're gonna try tracks when he's hot startups. So you guys see anyone around this area? I love this topic. I think it's worth talking a lot more about love. Love to continue on with you guys on that another. Another time. Final five minutes. I'd love to spend with you guys talking about the the digital transformation paradox. Rob, we're talking before we came on camera. He loved this paradox because it's simply not as easy to saying Kill the old man, bringing the new and everything's gonna be hunky dorey. It's not that simple, but but it also brings up the fact that in all these major waves, the hype outlives the reality, too. So you're seeing so I want to get your thoughts on digital transformation. Each of you share your thoughts on what's come home to be realistic in digital transformation, which what hasn't showed up yet in terms of benefits and capability. >> I mean, this is this to me is one of the things that we see happen in every wave. They people jump on that bandwagon really hard, and then they tell everybody who's doing the current stuff, that they're doing it wrong. Um, and that that to me, actually does a lot more heart. What we what we've seen in places where people said, burn the boats, you know, we don't care. They have actually not managed to get traction and not create the long term sustainability that you would get if you created ways to bring things forward. Networking is a good example for that, right? Automating a firewall configuration and creating a soft firewall or virtual network function is just taking something that people understand and moving it into a much more control perspective in a lot of ways. That's what we saw with Cloud Cloud took working I t infrastructure that people understood added some change but also kept things that people 1% and so the paradox. Is that you? Is it the more you tell people, they just have to completely disrupt and break everything they've done and walk away from their no nighty infrastructure, the less actually you create these long term values. And I know there are people who really know you got totally changed everything that disrupted value. But a lot of the disrupted value comes from creating these incremental changes and then building something on top of that. So what? So >> what did what Indigenous in digital transformation, what has happened? That's positive and what hasn't happened that was supposed to happen. >> So when I look att Dev ops on what people thought we were going to do, just automate all things that turned out to be a much bigger lift than people expected. But when we started looking at pipelines and deployment pipelines and something very concrete for that which let people start in one or two places and then expand, I think I think, uh, pipelines and build deploy pipelines are transformative, right? Going from a continuously integrated system all the way to a continuously integrated data center. Yeah, that's transformative. And it's very concrete just telling people automate everything is not been as effective >> guys. Other thoughts there on the digital >> transformation dream. I agree with everything that Rob just said, and I would just add just because, you know, it's the boarding piece that someone always has to say, and nobody in Tech everyone is he here? But you know, every corporation at one point or another in its Kurt in its life span faces a transformative period of time because of product change or a new competitor that's doing things differently, or has figured out a way to do it cheaper or whatever it is. And they usually make or break that transformation not because of technology, not because of whether they have smart people, not because of whether they implemented the newest solution, but because of culture and organizational motivation and the vast majority of like Everything, Rob said doesn't just apply to I. T. A lot of the best I T frameworks around Agile and Dev ops apply to how the rest of the organization can and should react to opportunity so that if I t can be and should be really time, then it only makes sense that the business should be able to be real time in responding to what is being created through I t systems. And right now I would argue that the vast majority of the 80% of transformations that don't see the benefit that they're looking for have nothing to do with whether they could have gotten the right technology or done the technology correctly. But it has to do with institutional culture and motivation. And if you can fix that, then the only piece all add on to that. That again I vociferously, really agree with Robin is that if you want to lower the barrier to entry and you want to get more people into this market, you won't get more people to buy more of your stuff and grow what they own. Then you have to be able to show them a path to taking, getting the most value out of what they already have. There is no doubt in my mind that that's the only way forward, and that's where some of the tools that we're talking about and what we're talking about today on Twitter or so important >> Mike final stops on the >> docks >> on your thoughts on the transmission paradox, >> so the paradox that Robb describe think is set, the contact is set incorrectly by calling it digital transformation should be digital revolution, where the evolution process doesn't end. Transformation makes people think that there's some end state, which means let's burn the votes. That's let's get rid of all over all on prime infrastructure moved to cloud and we're done. And really, that's only the beginning. Which is why we're talking about Cloud two point. Oh, do you have to take that approach that you want to have continuous evolution and improvements, which Segways into what Rob said about de box and automating all the things you don't automate your tasks and processes and you're done? You want to keep improving upon them. Figuring out how to improve the process is and then change the automation five that the is, Mark said. It's a cultural and mental shift versus trying to get to this Holy Grail and state of transforming transformation. >> Awesome. Well, why I got you guys here first off. Thanks for spending the time and unpacking these big issue. Well, two more of it. I'd >> love to just get >> your thoughts real quick on just your opinion of Capital One. The breach, survivability and impact of the industry. Since it's still in the news, who wants to jump for us? We'll start with Mike. Mike, start with you will go down the line. Mike, Robin Mara. >> I mean, the good news for Capital One is I don't think any personal information was breached that hasn't already been exposed by the various other massive reaches. Like I do my so security number as a throw away at this point which never should have been used for identity. But I want All >> right, So there were Do you think >> it's recoverable is not gonna be as critical, say, Equifax, which was brutal. >> It doesn't sound like there was negligence where Equifax seemed like it was Maura negligent driven than just ah ah, bad process or bad hygiene around a user or roll account and access to a certain subset of data. >> I mean, this was someone who stumbled upon open history bucket and said, >> Well, well, look at this >> bragging about it on Twitter and the user groups. I mean, this >> was like from from what the press said, I think there's other companies that may or may not be affected by this as well, so that it's just capital one, which will probably defuse the attention on them and lessen the severity or backlash. >> Rob your thoughts on Capital One. >> Yeah, I wish it would move the needle. I think that we have become so used to the security of breach of the week or the hardware. Very. You know, it is we We need to really think through what it's really gonna take toe treat security as a primary thing, which means actually treating operations and infrastructure and the human processes piece of this, um, and slowed down a little bit. Um, and I always saw >> 11 lawmaker, one congressman's woman said, More regulation. >> Yeah, they don't want this. I don't think regulation is the right is the right thing. I don't know exactly what it is because I think >> regularly, we don't understand. That's Washington, DC, >> But but we're building a very, very, very fragile I T infrastructure. And so this is not a security problem. It's a It's a fact that we've built this Jenga tower of I t infrastructure, and we don't actually understand how it's built, Um, and that I don't see that slowing down. Unfortunately, >> unlike Las Vegas is, Mike pointed out, it's was built with purpose. They built the roads around the town. Mark, you live there now What's your thoughts on this capital? One piece ends and >> I have been said I would say that what I'm hoping sort of like when you have, ah, a lack of employees for a specific job type. Like right now in United States, it's incredibly difficult to find a truck driver if you're a trucking company, So what does that mean? But that means it's gonna accelerate automation and truck driving because that's the best alternative, right? If you can't solve it the old way, then you find a new way to solve it. And we have an enormous number of opportunity. He's from a process standpoint, but also, from a technology standpoint, did not build on this. Pardon my French crap that we have already >> they were digital. Then, when I ruled by the FCC, >> had build it the right way from the start. >> Well, you know what was soon? How about self driving security? We needed guys. Thanks for spending the time this cube talk. Keep conversation. Appreciate time. Mike, Rob mark. Thanks for kicking it off. Thanks. >> Thank you. >> You're watching Cute conversation with promote guests. Panel discussion Breaking down. How businesses should look at technology as part of their business. Cloud 2.0, security hacks and digital transformation Digital evolution. I'm John free. Thanks for watching.

>> Announcer: Live from Chicago, Illinois, it's the Cube covering VeeamON 2018. Brought to you by Veeam. >> Welcome back to Chicago, everybody. This is the Cube, the leader in live tech coverage, and you're watching our exclusive coverage of VEEAMON 2018. #VeeamON. My name is Dave Vallante and I'm here with my cohost Stuart Miniman. Stu, great to be working with you again. >> Thanks Dave. Admiral, David G. Simpson is here. He's a former Chief Public Safety and homeland Security Bureau and CEO, currently, of Pelorus, a consultancy that helps organizations think through some of the risk factors that they face. David, welcome to the Cube. Thanks so much for taking time out. >> It's my pleasure to be here. >> So, as I was saying, we, we missed a big chunk of your keynote this morning cause we had to come back to the cube and do our open, but let's start with your background and kind of why you're here. >> Sure, well, I spent over three decades in the Navy where my responsibilities throughout included the resiliency of the ability to command and control forces in areas around the world not always so nice and often arduous and often at sea. So, that experience really has given me a very good appreciation, not only for how important economy of operations is, but how difficult it can be and how important the details are, so I am a natural fan of what FEMA's doing to make that easier for organizations. After DOD, I was recruited by the chairman of the FCC to lead the Public Safety Homeland Security Bureau for the Federal Communications Commission. And, in that position, I have responsibility for the nation's climate one system, emergency alerting, and the resiliency of over 30,000 telecommunication companies in the domestic market, so both experiences really have given me a very good insight into the need, the consequence of not getting it right, how to prepare to get it right, but also an ability to look at what's coming down the pike with the new telecommunications technologies that will really be game changers for functionality in the new internet of things environment. >> So, three decades of public service. First of all, thank you. >> Thank you. It's quite an accomplishment. And then, we had talked off camera that we, a couple of years ago, had Robert Gates on and we were gettin' detailed into how the experience that someone like you has had in the public sector translated to the private sector. It used to be there was just such a huge gap between, you know, what you did and what a, what a company had to, had to worry about. Do you see that gap closing? And, maybe, you could add some color to that. >> Sure, and in particular, in the cyber arena, you know, cyber, unlike the land, sea, and air domains, is a domain of Man's own making and the constraints around that domain are of our own choosing. And, we're not constrained by physics, we're constrained by the investment decisions we make and the contours of that expanding environment. But, the internet started out as a DOD research and development project, ARPA, so it has not been unusual for DOD to be out in front in some of the development aspects where counterintuitively we would, normally, see industry out in front. The same occurred I believe with cyber when our intelligence community over 10 years ago said, hey, this is a great thing, this internet thing. And, it's super that we're doing more and more communications, that we're talking with devices at the edge around the battle space, but it's vulnerable to attack and we need to organize, so that we are capable in the defense of that great cyber set of functionality that we've built. >> Could you expand? Just, so, you're doing some teaching in the cyber security world too. Maybe you could share a little bit what you're doing and what you see as kind of the state of this today >> Yeah, well, thank you for asking that about a year ago, the dean of the business school of Virginia Tech, asked me if I wouldn't consider building a cyber program for the business school. Tech has always had a strong engineering component to cyber security and it's led by a good friend of mine Dr. Charles Clancy with some superb research going on, but, increasingly, over two thirds of the work roles, in cyber security are not engineering. They really have much more to do with traditional business functions. Yet, most business leaders aren't well prepared to assess that risk environment, let alone appreciate it, and then, drive investments to address risk reduction. So, at Virginia Tech, we've built a series of four courses that in the MBA programs, the Masters of Accounting, the Masters of Business IT, we are now teaching prospective business leaders how to look at the risk environment and organize an investment structure using the NIST, or National Institute of the Standards of Technology, risk management framework, so that can be done in a repeatable way that communicates well with industry. And, companies like Veeam have an important role to play in that space because Veeam really translates much of the engineering complexities into business understandable conditions by which decisions about that data space can really be made. >> I want to share an observation that we had on the Cube last year, one of my favorite interviews was with a gentleman from ICIT, James Scott. He's a security expert, you may know him. And, we asked him what the biggest threat was to United States and his answer surprised me. I thought it was going to be, you know, cyber warfare or risks to critical infrastructure, he said the weaponization of social media was the number one threat, like wow. And, we had a really interesting discussion about that and, you know, I think of, you know, your background, loose lips sink ships, people on social give up there credentials, all of a sudden, you've got some outside bad actors controlling the narrative, controlling the meme and controlling the population without firing a shot. Wow, so what are your thoughts on social media and it's risk to our society and how to deal with it? >> Well, we're seeing in the last year, that he's very prescient, right, in that you can lockdown all the bits and the bytes and get the integrity, the confidentiality, and the availability of your data sets taken care of, but in a world where the public square, if you will, is now a virtual public square, if an adversary can change the perception of reality in that public square, or if they can cause our democracy to lose confidence in that public square, then an adversary can really achieve a kill, if you will, a desired effect in a way that is very negative for the country, so I don't see that though as being completely distinguished from cyber security. I see, in my mind, that we need to expand the universe, to protect the universe of cyber into that cognitive space. And, we need to understand, increasingly, the origin of comment in the social media arena. We need to understand therole algorithms have to play in amplifying a message and suppressing other messages. And, we need to, I think, have a greater accountability for businesses that are in that virtual public square line of business to help consumers and communities continue to have confidence in that public square and we're, we're challenged in that area. 'cause see Mark Zuckerberg's testimony, right >> Sure. >> Illuminated some big challenges there. >> Yeah, I mean, my heart went out to Zuckerberg, it was, I was like the poor guy, he's just trying to build out a social network and now he's getting, you know, attacked by politicians who are saying, wow you mean you use data for political gain, or you allowed somebody to do it. >> He was in a tough spot. >> And politicians themselves, I think, were a bit embarrassed in revealing their lack of tech savvy in a world where we should expect policy makers to be at least aware enough of the parameters around the virtual public square where they can help develop the right policy to ensure that this continues to be a net asset for the United States, for communities, and for consumers. >> Technology kind of got us into this problem, but, technology, in and of itself, is not going to get out of, get us out of this problem >> Right. >> It's others in the organization, the lines of business, the policies, the practices, some of the work that you do in your teachings, may be >> Yeah, absolutely and when I talk to aspiring business leaders, I communicate a couple of things to them. One, they need to get their heads out of being the decider as the CEO. Increasingly, they will be creating decision environments, right, where decision operations occur and are driven by algorithms, by machine learning, and AI, and so they've got to be thinking, about how do they create those environments to deliver the right kind of decision results that they're looking for. The second piece that I talk to them about, that's counterintuitive, is that they need to, as they bring in network functional virtualization and more and more software oriented things that used to be hardware, they've got to understand the risk exposure from that and bring in, they can, a way to address cyber risk as they introduce new functionality in the market. >> Well, it's interesting of an Admiral talking about network function virtualization, I'm very impressed. Admiral Simpson, thanks very much for coming on the Cube. >> Sure. >> Really a pleasure having you and best of luck in your work. >> Well, thank you and it's great to be here with the Veeam professionals that, I think, are really building a command and control layer of an enterprise of data space that will be very important for the future. >> Alright, okay, thanks for watching everybody. We will be right back, Stu Miniman and Dave Vallante from VeeamOn 2018, you're watching the Cube. >> Great thanks. (upbeat music)

(bright music) >> Hello everyone, welcome to a special Cube Conversation here, in the Palo Alto studios, for theCUBE, I'm John Furrier, the founder of SiliconeANGLE Media and theCUBE, and cohost of theCUBE. My next guest is Adrian Scott, who is the CEO of Soma Capital and Head of Technology of decent.bet. You can get the idea of that going to be all about, but, industry legend-- >> Yeah. >> Star of the big screen, good to see you, thanks for comin' in. >> Thank you John, it's great to see you. >> I'm glad I wanted to talk to you, because I know you've been doing a lot of traveling, you've been living in Panama, and overseas, outside the US, mainly around the work you've been doing on the crypto side, obviously Blockchain and with the start of decent.bet, lot of great stuff, but congratulations on a successful initial coin offering! >> Thank you. >> Great stuff, but you're also notable in the industry, initial investor in Napster, our generation, first P2P, the first renegade, you know, break down the movie business, but the beginning of what we're now seeing as that decentralized revolution. But you've seen many waves of innovation. You've seen 'em come and go. But this one in particular, Blockchain, decentralized internet, decentralized applications, crypto. Pretty awesome, and lot of young guns are coming in, a lot of older, experienced, alpha entrepreneurs are coming in like yourself, and, we're lookin' at it too. What's your take on it? I mean, how do you talk people that are like, "Well, hey, this is just a scam on the ICS site, "is this real, is it a bubble?" Share your vision on what this is all about, this whole mega-trend, crypto, decentralized. >> And I'll also add, in addition to what you mentioned, the other neat thing here is just the global nature of it. Because we're so used to being Silicon Valley-centric, and having to dig around for funding here, and also, looking only at talent that would move here, whereas with this whole new industry, it's very global, there's global teams, international teams, and, some of the Silicon Valley folks are just struggling to stay relevant, and stay in the game, so that's a fascinating aspect to this new revolution as well. >> And also, the thing I love about this market, it's very efficient, it takes away inefficiencies, in venture capital right now, and private equity being disrupted, that's where the arbitrage is, hence the ICO bubble, but, there is real, legit opportunities, you have Soma Capital, you're an investment fund, that you're doing token investments on. The global nature is interesting, I want to just ask here about this, because, my view is, it changes valuation, it changes valuation mechanisms, it changes the makeup of the venture architecture, it makes up on how people recruit teams, the technology used, and with open source, I mean, this is a first-time view at a new landscape. You can't take a pattern match, model, to this, your thoughts. >> Agree completely, and the efficiency you mentioned, applied to teams, and surfacing engineering talent, and the mathematical minds that can handle crypto internationally, the formation of teams internationally online is actually something special as well, so, with Decent Bet, our team, our founding team includes folks from the US, Panama, Australia, as well, who met up, in a Facebook chat group! And that's how they initially connected, and they didn't know each other physically, before this connection online, and that led to this project, Decent Bet, and ICO, and so on. So it's-- >> You created value from essentially a digital workforce, but, I mean, it reminds me of, like in the old days, you'd chat, and it wasn't a lot of face-to-face, but then now there's video gaming culture, you know, you come in, "Hey, you want to play a game," people don't even know each other, and get a visual, and also an immersive experience with each other. This is now the application for entrepreneurial equations, so this kind of gaming, the game is startups! So how are you looking at this, and how are you investing in it, what are some of the things, and what can people learn from what we're seeing in this new game-ified, if you will, you know, world of starting companies? >> I think one of the things you alluded to there has really become visible, which is the importance of video, as a medium, and I'm still, absorbing and adjusting to that myself. For example, we do video communications, we do conversations at Decent Bet, of the founding team, and, it really connects to the community, and it's so important, and I'm still absorbing it, like I mentioned, 'cause I'm just so used to publishing articles that are very clearly written, and detailed, and so on. We just did an AMA video, an Ask Me Anything video, in Las Vegas, with the executive team, and it went for 80 minutes, answering the questions, that the community had all submitted! And I just try and imagine that five years ago, it's new way of relating-- >> 'Cause there was no blogging, link back, the only thing you could do in blogging. >> Yeah. >> And then write a perfect blog post, or white paper. >> Exactly. >> And that was who you were. >> Yeah. >> Not anymore, it's more community driven. >> Exactly, and that video as a piece of it, has become so, so important, as a way of communicating the character of the team, and-- >> Before we get into decent.bet, I want to drill those, I think it's a great use case, and again, congratulations on great work there. I want to ask you about something that I've been fascinated with, because I obviously, our generation, we grew up on open source when it was second-class citizen, now it runs the whole world, as first-tier, first-class citizen in software world. The role of the community was really important in software development, 'cause that kept a, it kept a balance, there was governance, was consensus, these are words that you hear in the crypto world. And now, whether it's content and or ICO, the role of the community, and certainly, areas that's out of control in the ICO site, people are cracking down on certainly, like you see Facebook and Twitter trying to do something, but you can't stop the wisdom of the crowd. The role of the community in this crypto, decentralized market, ICOs and whatnot, is super important. Can you share your thoughts, and color commentary on why the community's so important, how do you deal with it (laughs), any best practices, either through scar tissue, or successes, share your thoughts on this. >> Oh yeah, it's totally become a factor, and it's 24/7, right? So, when you are running a crypto project, you need your community management team to be there, in the community channels, 24/7, you need to have somebody there, and they need to be at a certain level that they can handle the challenging questions! And we've definitely had moments where, we have people who try to create FUD, potentially, you know, and bring up stuff, and bring it up again later and whatnot, and we need to be proactive, so when questions come up, we were there to be able to explain, "Okay, here's where you can see this on the Blockchain. "You can verify it yourself." And sometimes, it happens when the team is just about to get on a plane (laughs), and be out of internet communication for a while, so, it's a real challenge, and there's been the voice of experience, on that. >> So talk about how you guys connect, because obviously, being connected is important with community access, but also, with connection, increases the service area for hacks, are you guys carrying five burner phones each, how do you handle email, how have you guys dealt with the whole, you know, there is a lot of online activity, certainly, people trying to do some spear phishing, or whatever tactics there are. Telegram has been littered with a lot of spoofing, and what not, so, all this is going on, that you got to have access communication. But there's a safety component that could have really big impacts to these businesses, that aren't tokeners, because, hacking can be easy if you don't protect yourself. >> We really like Signal app, as a communications medium, there's a new one, starting to grow now, called Threema, which is pretty interesting. Telegram, is just a real challenge, and it's unfortunate, because it's now become this metric. >> How many people are active on your channels-- >> That investors like to look at the size of the Telegram group, but we don't actually have a Telegram group for Decent Bet. And we've used Slack, we are going to be rolling out a internally hosted Slack replacement soon based on Rocket.Chat, we really like Rocket.Chat. As you mentioned, there are spear phishing, we do see that, and, one of the nice things is, a few years ago, you had trouble convincing a team to take security seriously! But you know, when you have team members who may have lost $10,000 in a hack-- >> Or more! >> Or more, you know, there's no question that this needs to be a priority, and everybody buys in on it. So that is one net positive out of this. >> Well let's talk about Decent Bet, fascinating use case, it's in the gaming area, gaming as in like betting, my friend Paul Martino invested I think in DraftKings, one of those other companies, I forget which one it was. In the US, there was regulatory issues, but, you know, outside the US where I think you guys are, there's not as much issue. Perfect use case for tokens, in my opinion. So, take a minute to explain Decent Bet, what you guys are all about, and talk about the journey of conception, when you guys conceived it, to ICO. >> Yeah. Decent Bet was founded about a year ago, by the CEO Jedidiah Taylor, who developed an interesting idea, and plan, so, the neat thing about Decent Bet is, first of all, you have all the benefits of the Ethereum Blockchain, in terms of verifying, transactions, and verifying the house's take. Additionally, what Decent Bet does is distributes all the profits of the casino back to the token-holders. 95% goes as proportionally, and then 5% is awarded in a lottery, so there's no profit for any Decent Bet entity, it all goes back to the tokenholders. So you use the token to play, by gambling, but you can also use your token to convert into house shares, for a quarter, and participate in-- >> So the house always wins, that a good model, right? >> Yes. >> You could become the house, through the tokens. >> Exactly, so, the motto we use is our house is your house (laughs). >> Don't bet against the house. >> Yeah. >> Alright so, I love the gambling aspect of it, I think that's going to be a winner. Tech-involved, ICO process bumps, learnings, things you could share with folks? >> Yeah, so, on the technology, one of the neat things we are doing is, we do offer a slots game, which is a primary component of online gambling, and casinos, a pretty dominant piece of the action. But, if you are going to do a simple slots game on the Blockchain, and wait around for blocks to be mined, you're not going to have a great experience. 'Cause you're going to be waiting around, more than you're going to be clicking that button. So, what we use is a technology called state channels, which allows us to do a session, kind of on a side channel, so to speak, and through this state channel, at the end of the session, you post back the results. So you get the verifiability of the Blockchain, but without the delay. So that's a major difference. >> That's off chain, right? >> Yeah. >> Or the on chain is off chain. >> It's kind of-- >> So you're managing the league, to see the chain, so you still experience, and then get to preserve it on the chain. >> Exactly-- >> Okay. >> In terms of the ICO experience, we initiated the ICO end of September, ran for a month, raised more than 52,000 Ether, so very productive ICO process, but with actually some interesting details, so, the ICO structure limited the amount that a particular address could purchase, in the first phases, to 10,000 worth, and then 20,000 dollars worth, with the idea of getting the tokens into the hand of, of people who are going to potentially use them for betting, not just-- >> The more the merrier for you, not, no one taking down allocations, big players. >> Exactly. >> Or whales. >> Not just for the whales, take all, kind of thing. So, that was a interesting structure, and-- >> And that worked well? >> Yeah! >> Alright, talk about the dynamic of post-ICO, because now you guys are building, can you give an update on the state of where you guys are at with the product, availability, how that's going, 'cause obviously you raised the capital through the ICO, democratize it if you will through clever mechanism, which is cool, thanks for sharing that, now what happens? Now, what's going on? >> Yeah, I mean, I think we're doing pretty well in terms of hitting milestones, and showing progress compared to a lot of projects, we released our test net, with slots, and then sportsbook, at the beginning of January, and mid-January, for sportsbook. And, we also did some upgrades with our wallet, we released that, for some enhanced usability, and handling during high peaks on the Ether network, Ethereum network. And then, also, our moving to main net. So we did some newer versions of the test net-- >> When did the main net come in? >> Main net is coming out end of April, and we're on track with that. >> Great, awesome. Congratulations, congratulations on a great job, 52,000 Ether, great raise there, and awesome opportunity. Soma Capital. >> Mm-hmm. >> You're investing now, what do you look for for deals, there's more money chasing good deals now, as we can see, has been a flight to quality obviously. Great global landscape still, what are you looking for? And advice to folks who are looking to do a token, sale, what's your-- >> Big thing we look for are real projects, so (laughs), and they're not that many out there, so we do look for a real use case that makes sense, because, there's a lot of folks out there just sticking Blockchain tag onto anything. And it's not just-- >> Like Kodak for instance. >> Yeah. >> Kodak's the prime example. >> Yes. There are projects out there doing interesting things, Guardium is doing some neat things in terms of 911 response, and opening that up, and creating an alternative to government services. There's WorkCoin, which is-- >> Do you invest in Guardium? >> Yeah, in Guardium, yeah. >> I interviewed them in Puerto Rico. >> Okay, great. >> Great project. >> So very interesting, I was recently giving a talk at a university in Guatemala, and, the students there at business school, it really resonated, the message there, to them, about okay, government 911 is maybe not the ultimate solution for getting help when you need it. >> Well I think, there's a lot of this AI for a good concept, going to Blockchain for good, because, you're seeing a lot of these easy, low-hanging fruit applications around these old structural intuitions. And that's where the action is, right, I mean, do you agree? >> Yeah, yes. And the other thing we're looking at is not just Blockchain. So I really like talking about the field more as crypto, and, I have a little video I did on calling it kind of decentralized, crypto-enabled applications, or platforms. So, beyond Blockchain, we have DAGs, Directed Acyclic Graphs, one interesting-- >> Like Hashgraph. >> Yeah, Ha-- >> Hashgraph's a DAG, isn't it? It's kind of a DAG, Hashgraph? >> Yeah, so, I'm not a huge fan of Hashgraph, one that I do like is called Guld, G-U-L-D, which is, again, thinking beyond the Blockchain. 'Cause we get so tied into Blockchain, Blockchain, Blockchain-- >> What does beyond the Blockchain mean to you? Thinking beyond the Blockchain, what does that mean to you? >> So, the proof of work process, the mining process, the creating new blocks process, is one way of doing things. But we have all these other things going on in crypto, like the signing process, and so on, and so, you can use those in a DAG, a different architecture than just this mining new blocks, you know, mental model. And so, that can be used for different use cases, for publishing, for group consensus, and so on. And so, Guld is an example of a project where it looks like there is something real there, and that's a very interesting product. >> Advice for folks that are looking at tokeneries, because, again, we've said this on theCUBE many times, people know, I'm beating this drum, you got the startups, that see an opportunity, which is fantastic, and then on the end of the spectrum, you got the, "Oh, shit, we're out of business, "let's pivot, throw the Hail Mary, put Blockchain on it, "crypto, and get an ICO, and get some going." And then you've got these growth companies that are, either self funded and or growing, that have decentralized kind of feel to it, it has an architecture that's compatible with tokenization. >> Yeah. >> So we see those three categories. Do you agree, am I missing anything? In terms of the profile? And which ones do you like? >> Well, I think one thing that we need to look at, in each of those cases, is decentralization actually happening, in the project? And are people actually thinking about decentralization. Because, it can be scary for a traditional company! Because, if it truly becomes decentralized, you're not controlling it anymore. And so, that is-- >> If you're based on control, then it's incompatible. >> And that's the real Hail Mary, right? (laughs) When you give up that control, if you give it up, so, we have examples coming out, where, you know, Ripple is running just a few nodes, Neo's running a few more, and you know, things that are not really decentralized, and they're saying, "Well, we're going to be," (laughs) you know? >> Will they ever? >> Is it going to be in the future-- >> Yeah, that's always the question, will they ever be? They've already made their money, well certainly Ripple's done well, but, I mean, what's the incentive to go-- >> Yeah. >> Decentralized. >> Yeah, so if, if you are creating a new project, the benefit from this architecture, beyond the money, is to think about it in that decentralized way, and figure out token economics that work, in that context, in that paradigm! And that's really where the challenge is, but also really where some of the benefits can rise, because, that is what enables truly new ways of doing things. >> Talk about the dynamic, because I actually, I live in Silicon Valley, I've been here 19 years, going on 20, you know, I moved from the east coast, and basically, if you weren't here, this is where the action is. If you're in the sports of tech, this is where all the athletes are. That's now changed, as you mentioned earlier, when we started, it's everywhere. Now, also there's jurisdictional issues, I mean the US, one guy's told me, the US is turning into Europe, all these regulations, it's not as much free capital as you think, and then, we certainly know that. With FCC, and others are putting the clamp down. But, structuring the token, is a concern, right? Or consideration. >> Yes. >> And a concern, so, you know, US entrepreneur, what should they do in your opinion, and if someone's outside the US, what do they do? What's the play book, or, not play book, what's the best path right now? >> Leave the US (laughs). Move out of the US. >> Tell that, wife and four kids. See you later. Yeah, but that's real legit, that's-- >> Come and check out Panama, one of my friends is building a Blockchain incubator, crypto-incubator, I mean I think if you're-- >> What's it like to move out of the United States, I know you just recently went to Panama for this, but, what's it like? Is it scary down there, I mean, is it entrepreneurially friendly? What's the vibe, what's the scene like, take a minute to explain that. >> So I've actually been out there 12 years now, in Panama. One of the neat things, you want a place that has an international outlook, international perspectives, so, you want to think in terms of a Dubai, a Singapore, a Hong Kong. And so, Panama has some aspects of that, it's not perfect, but it does have that international perspective thanks to the Canal! So it has, you know, a hundred years! (laughs) >> It also has the Panama papers, which is a negative blowback for those guys, so it's a safe place to do commerce, in your opinion? >> Um, it is a nice geographic base to do international commerce. >> Got it. >> So, you don't necessarily want to rely on the local jurisdiction, but, in terms of a geographic base, that is US time zone, US dollar, no hurricanes, it's a very interesting place. >> Puerto Rico's got the hurricanes, we know that. >> Yeah. >> Final thoughts, just overall perspective, you've been around the block, we've been around the block, both of us have, I mean, I kind of have these pinch me almost like, "Damn, this is great time, "I wish I was 22," I mean, do you have those? What's it like, how you explain this environment? If people ask you, "Hey, what was it like in the old days?" You know, when you have to provision all your own stack, and do all the stuff, it's pretty interesting right now. What's your thoughts? >> Yeah, I mean, I think we're going through an interesting moment right now, where, we are getting to a point where the forces of centralization are coming against the forces of decentralization, and that includes from the regulatory, as well as the business side, and so, I think it is important, as we look where to dedicate our efforts to, to really find ways to increase the decentralization as a factor that encourages creativity, and entrepreneurship. >> Yeah, it really is a personal, I think it's a great environment. Decent.bet, bet, make your bets, any updates on how to get tokens, what people can expect, a quick plug-in for Decent. >> Yeah, check out our website, we've got links to exchanges, the token is currently listed on Cryptotopia, HitBTC, and a couple other exchanges, and, yeah! Please check out the test net, please check out the white paper, and just learn about how this protocol works, this platform works. I think it is very inspiring, as a structure. >> Adrian Scott here, inside theCUBE, Soma Capital, also experienced entrepreneur himself, technologist, and has been through the ICO process, head of technology at decent.net, we'll be checkin' it out, it's theCUBE Conversation, I'm John Furrier, here in Palo Alto, California. Thanks for watching. (bright music)