>> Narrator: From the Cube Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. >> Hi, and welcome to this CUBE conversation, I'm Stu Min and I'm coming to you from our Boston area studio, we've been digging in with the Pensando team, understand how they're fitting into the cloud, multi-cloud, edge discussion, really thrilled to welcome to the program, first time guest, Silvano Gai, he's a fellow with Pensando. Silvano, really nice to see you again, thanks so much for joining us on theCUBE. >> Stuart, it's so nice to see you, we used to work together many years ago and that was really good and is really nice to come to you from Oregon, from Bend, Oregon. A beautiful town in the high desert of Oregon. >> I do love the Pacific North West, I miss the planes and the hotels, I should say, I don't miss the planes and the hotels, but going to see some of the beautiful places is something I do miss and getting to see people in the industry I do like. As you mentioned, you and I crossed paths back through some of the spin-ins, back when I was working for a very large storage company, you were working for SISCO, you were known for writing the book, you were a professor in Italy, many of the people that worked on some of those technologies were your students. But Silvano, my understanding is you retired so, maybe share for our audience, what brought you out of that retirement and into working once again with some of your former colleagues and on the Pensando opportunity. >> I did retire for a while, I retired in 2011 from Cisco if I remember correctly. But at the end of 2016, beginning of 2017, some old friend that you may remember and know called me to discuss some interesting idea, which was basically the seed idea that is behind the Pensando product and their idea were interesting, what we built, of course, is not exactly the original idea because you know product evolve over time, but I think we have something interesting that is adequate and probably superb for the new way to design the data center network, both for enterprise and cloud. >> All right, and Silvano, I mentioned that you've written a number of books, really the authoritative look on when some new products had been released before. So, you've got a new book, "Building a Future-Proof Cloud Infrastructure," and look at you, you've got the physical copy, I've only gotten the soft version. The title, really interesting. Help us understand how Pensando's platform is meeting that future-proof cloud infrastructure that you discuss. >> Well, network have evolved dramatically in the data center and in the cloud. You know, now the speed of classical server in enterprise is probably 25 gigabits, in the cloud we are talking of 100 gigabit of speed for a server, going to 200 gigabit. Now, the backbone are ridiculously fast. We no longer use Spanning Tree and all the stuff, we no longer use access code aggregation. We switched to closed network, and with closed network, we have huge enormous amount of bandwidth and that is good but it also imply that is not easy to do services in a centralized fashion. If you want to do a service in a centralized fashion, what you end up doing is creating a giant bottleneck. You basically, there is this word that is being used, that is trombone or tromboning. You try to funnel all this traffic through the bottleneck and this is not really going to work. The only place that you can really do services is at the edge, and this is not an invention, I mean, even all the principles of cloud is move everything to the edge and maintain the network as simple as possible. So, we approach services with the same general philosophy. We try to move services to the edge, as close as possible to the server and basically at the border between the sever and the network. And when I mean services I mean three main categories of services. The networking services of course, there is the basic layer, two-layer, three stuff, plus the bonding, you know VAMlog and what is needed to connect a server to a network. But then there is the overlay, overlay like the xLAN or Geneva, very very important, basically to build a cloud infrastructure, and that are basically the network service. We can have others but that, sort of is the core of a network service. Some people want to run BGP layers, some people don't want to run BGP. There may be a VPN or kind of things like that but that is the core of a network service. Then of course, and we go back to the time we worked together, there are storage services. At that time, we were discussing mostly about fiber tunnel, now the BUS world is clearly NVMe, but it's not just the BUS world, it's really a new way of doing storage, and is very very interesting. So, NVMe kind of service are very important and NVMe as a version that is called NVMeOF, over fiber. Which is basically, sort of remote version of NVMe. And then the third, least but not last, most important category probably, is security. And when I say that security is very very important, you know, the fact that security is very important is clear to everybody in our day, and I think security has two main branches in terms of services. There is the classical firewall and micro-segmentation, in which you basically try to enforce the fact that only who is allowed to access something can access something. But you don't, at that point, care too much about the privacy of the data. Then there is the other branch that encryption, in which you are not trying to enforce to decide who can access or not access the resource, but you are basically caring about the privacy of the data, encrypting the data so that if it is hijacked, snooped or whatever, it cannot be decoded. >> Eccellent, so Silvano, absolutely the edge is a huge opportunity. When someone looks at the overall solution and say you're putting something in the edge, you know, they could just say, "This really looks like a NIC." You talked about some of the previous engagement we'd worked on, host bus adapters, smart NICs and the like. There were some things we could build in but there were limits that we had, so, what differentiates the Pensando solution from what we would traditionally think of as an adapter card in the past? >> Well, the Pensando solution has two main, multiple pieces but in term of hardware, has two main pieces, there is an ASIC that we call copper internally. That ASIC is not strictly related to be used only in an adapter form, you can deploy it also in other form factors in another part of the network in other embodiment, et cetera. And then there is a card, the card has a PCI-E interface and sit in a PCI-E slot. So yes, in that sense, somebody can can call it a NIC and since it's a pretty good NIC, somebody can call it a smart NIC. We don't really like that two terms, we prefer to call it DSC, domain specific card, but the real term that I like to use is domain specific hardware, and I like to use domain specific hardware because it's the same term that Hennessy and Patterson use in a beautiful piece of literature that is the Turing Award lecture. It's on the internet, it's public, I really ask everybody to go and try to find it and listen to that beautiful piece of literature, modern literature on computer architecture. The Turing Award lecture of Hennessy and Patterson. And they have introduced the concept of domain specific hardware, and they explain also the justification for why now is important to look at domain specific hardware. And the justification is basically in a nutshell and we can go more deep if you're interested, but in a nutshell is that the specing, that is the single tried performer's measurement of a CPU, is not growing fast at all, is only growing nowadays like a few point percent a year, maybe 4% per year. And with this slow grow, over specing performance of a core, you know the core need to be really used for user application, for customer application, and all what is known as Sentian can be moved to some domain specific hardware that can do that in a much better fashion, and by no mean I imply that the DSC is the best example of domain specific hardware. The best example of domain specific hardware is in front of all of us, and are GPUs. And not GPUs for graphic processing which are also important, but GPU used basically for artificial intelligence, machine learning inference. You know, that is a piece of hardware that has shown that something can be done with performance that the purpose processor can do. >> Yeah, it's interesting right. If you term back the clock 10 or 15 years ago, I used to be in arguments, and you say, "Do you build an offload, "or do you let it happen is software." And I was always like, "Oh, well Moore's law with mean that, "you know, the software solution will always win, "because if you bake it in hardware, it's too slow." It's a very different world today, you talk about how fast things speed up. From your customer standpoint though, often some of those architectural things are something that I've looked for my suppliers to take care of that. Speak to the use case, what does this all mean from a customer stand point, what are some of those early use cases that you're looking at? >> Well, as always, you get a bit surprised by the use cases, in the sense that you start to design a product thinking that some of the most cool thing will be the dominant use cases, and then you discover that something that you have never really fought have the most interesting use case. One that we have fought about since day one, but it's really becoming super interesting is telemetry. Basically, measuring everything in the network, and understanding what is happening in the network. I was speaking with a friend the other day, and the friend was asking me, "Oh, but we have SNMP for many many years, "which is the difference between SNMP and telemetry?" And the difference is to me, the real difference is in SNMP or in many of these management protocol, you involve a management plan, you involve a control plan, and then you go to read something that is in the data plan. But the process is so inefficient that you cannot really get a huge volume of data, and you cannot get it practically enough, with enough performance. Doing telemetry means thinking a data path, building a data path that is capable of not only measuring everything realtime, but also sending out that measurement without involving anything else, without involving the control path and the management path so that the measurement becomes really very efficient and the data that you stream out becomes really usable data, actionable data in realtime. So telemetry is clearly the first one, is important. One that you honestly, we had built but we weren't thinking this was going to have so much success is what we call Bidirectional ERSPAN. And basically, is just the capability of copying data. And sending data that the card see to a station. And that is very very useful for replacing what are called TAP network, Which is just network, but many customer put in parallel to the real network just to observe the real network and to be able to troubleshoot and diagnose problem in the real network. So, this two feature telemetry and ERSPAN that are basically troubleshooting feature are the two features that are beginning are getting more traction. >> You're talking about realtime things like telemetry. You know, the applications and the integrations that you need to deal with are so important, back in some of the previous start-ups that you done was getting ready for, say how do we optimize for virtualization, today you talk cloud-native architectures, streaming, very popular, very modular, often container based solutions and things change constantly. You look at some of these architectures, it's not a single thing that goes on for a long period of time, but it's lots of things that happen over shorter periods of time. So, what integrations do you need to do, and what architecturally, how do you build things to make them as you talk, future-proof for these kind of cloud architectures? >> Yeah, what I mentioned were just the two low hanging fruit, if you want the first two low hanging fruit of this architecture. But basically, the two that come immediately after and where there is a huge amount of radio are distributor's state for firewall, with micro-segmentation support. That is a huge topic in itself. So important nowadays that is absolutely fundamental to be able to build a cloud. That is very important, and the second one is wire rate encryption. There is so much demand for privacy, and so much demand to encrypt the data. Not only between data center but now also inside the data center. And when you look at a large bank for example. A large bank is no longer a single organization. A large bank is multiple organizations that are compartmentalized by law. That need to keep things separate by law, by regulation, by FCC regulation. And if you don't have encryption, and if you don't have distributed firewall, is really very difficult to achieve that. And then you know, there are other applications, we mentioned storage NVME, and is a very nice application, and then we have even more, if you go to look at load balance in between server, doing compression for storage and other possible applications. But I sort of lost your real question. >> So, just part of the pieces, when you look at integrations that Pensando needs to do, for maybe some of the applications that you would tie in to any of those that come to mind? >> Yeah, well for sure. It depends, I see two main branches again. One is the cloud provider, and one are the enterprise. In the cloud provider, basically this cloud provider have a huge management infrastructure that is already built and they want just the card to adapt to this, to be controllable by this huge management infrastructure. They already know which rule they want to send to the card, they already know which feature they want to enable on the card. They already have all that, they just want the card to provide the data plan performers for that particular feature. So they're going to build something particular that is specific for that particular cloud provider that adapt to that cloud provider architecture. We want the flexibility of having an API on the card that is like a rest API or a gRPC which they can easily program, monitor and control that card. When you look at the enterprise, the situation is different. Enterprise is looking to at two things. Two or three things. The first thing is a complete solution. They don't want to, they don't have the management infrastructure that they have built like a cloud provider. They want a complete solution that has the card and the management station and there's all what is required to make from day one, a working solution, which is absolutely correct in an enterprise environment. They also want integration, and integration is the tool that they already have. If you look at main enterprise, one of a dominant presence is clearly VMware virtualization in terms of ESX and vSphere and NSX. And so most of the customer are asking us to integrate with VMware, which is a very reasonable demand. And then of course, there are other player, not so much in the virtualization's space, but for example, in the data collections space, and the data analysis space, and for sure Pensando doesn't want to reinvent the wheel there, doesn't want to build a data collector or data analysis engine and whatever, there is a lot of work, and there are a lot out there, so integration with things like Splunk for example are kind of natural for Pensando. >> Eccellent, so wait, you talked about some of the places where Pensando doesn't need to reinvent the wheel, you talk through a lot of the different technology pieces. If I had to have you pull out one, what would you say is the biggest innovation that Pensando has built into the platform. >> Well, the biggest innovation is this P4 architecture. And the P4 architecture was a sort of gift that was given us in the sense that it was not invented for what we use it. P4 was basically invented to have programmable switches. The first big P4 company was clearly Barefoot that then was acquired by Intel and Barefoot built a programmable switch. But if you look at the reality of today, the network, most of the people want the network to be super easy. They don't want to program anything into the network. They want to program everything at the edge, they want to put all the intelligence and the programmability of the edge, so we borrowed the P4 architecture, which is fantastic programmable architecture and we implemented that yet. It's also easier because the bandwidth is clearly more limited at the edge compared to being in the core of a network. And that P4 architecture give us a huge advantage. If you, tomorrow come up with the Stuart Encapsulation Super Duper Technology, I can implement in the copper The Stuart, whatever it was called, Super Duper Encapsulation Technology, even when I design the ASIC I didn't know that encapsulation exists. Is the data plan programmability, is the capability to program the data plan and programming the data plan while maintaining wire-speed performance, which I think is the biggest benefit of Pensando. >> All right, well Silvano, thank you so much for sharing, your journey with Pensando so far, really interesting to dig into it and absolutely look forward to following progress as it goes. >> Stuart, it's been really a pleasure to talk with you, I hope to talk with you again in the near future. Thank you so much. >> All right, and thank you for watching theCUBE, I'm Stu Miniman, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE Conversation. (smooth music) >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, and welcome to this special exclusive presentation from theCUBE. We're digging into Pensando and their Future Proof Your Enterprise event. To help kick things off, welcoming in a friend of the program, Scott Raynovich. He is the principal analyst at Futuriom coming to us from Montana. I believe first time we've had a guest on the program in the state of Montana, so Scott, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks, Stu, happy to be here. >> All right, so we're going to dig a lot into Pensando. They've got their announcement with Hewlett Packard Enterprise. Might help if we give a little bit of background, and definitely I want Scott and I to talk a little bit about where things are in the industry, especially what's happening in networking, and how some of the startups are helping to impact what's happening on the market. So for those that aren't familiar with Pensando, if you followed networking I'm sure you are familiar with the team that started them, so they are known, for those of us that watch the industry, as MPLS, which are four people, not to be confused with the protocol MPLS, but they had very successfully done multiple spin-ins for Cisco, Andiamo, Nuova and Insieme, which created Fibre Channel switches, the Cisco UCS, and the ACI product line, so multiple generations to the Nexus, and Pensando is their company. They talk about Future Proof Your Enterprise is the proof point that they have today talking about the new edge. John Chambers, the former CEO of Cisco, is the chairman of Pensando. Hewlett Packard Enterprise is not only an investor, but also a customer in OEM piece of this solution, and so very interesting piece, and Scott, I want to pull you into the discussion. The waves of technology, I think, the last 10, 15 years in networking, a lot it has been can Cisco be disrupted? So software-defined networking was let's get away from hardware and drive towards more software. Lots of things happening. So I'd love your commentary. Just some of the macro trends you're seeing, Cisco's position in the marketplace, how the startups are impacting them. >> Sure, Stu. I think it's very exciting times right now in networking, because we're just at the point where we kind of have this long battle of software-defined networking, like you said, really pushed by the startups, and there's been a lot of skepticism along the way, but you're starting to see some success, and the way I describe it is we're really on the third generation of software-defined networking. You have the first generation, which was really one company, Nicira, which VMware bought and turned into their successful NSX product, which is a virtualized networking solution, if you will, and then you had another round of startups, people like Big Switch and Cumulus Networks, all of which were acquired in the last year. Big Switch went to Arista, and Cumulus just got purchased by... Who were they purchased by, Stu? >> Purchased by Nvidia, who interestingly enough, they just picked up Mellanox, so watching Nvidia build out their stack. >> Sorry, I was having a senior moment. It happens to us analysts. (chuckling) But yeah, so Nvidia's kind of rolling up these data center and networking plays, which is interesting because Nvidia is not a traditional networking hardware vendor. It's a chip company. So what you're seeing is kind of this vision of what they call in the industry disaggregation. Having the different components sold separately, and then of course Cisco announced the plan to roll out their own chip, and so that disaggregated from the network as well. When Cisco did that, they acknowledged that this is successful, basically. They acknowledged that disaggregation is happening. It was originally driven by the large public cloud providers like Microsoft Azure and Amazon, which started the whole disaggregation trend by acquiring different components and then melding it all together with software. So it's definitely the future, and so there's a lot of startups in this area to watch. I'm watching many of them. They include ArcOS, which is a exciting new routing vendor. DriveNets, which is another virtualized routing vendor. This company Alkira, which is going to do routing fully in the cloud, multi-cloud networking. Aviatrix, which is doing multi-cloud networking. All these are basically software companies. They're not pitching hardware as part of their value add, or their integrated package, if you will. So it's a different business model, and it's going to be super interesting to watch, because I think the third generation is the one that's really going to break this all apart. >> Yeah, you brought up a lot of really interesting points there, Scott. That disaggregation, and some of the changing landscape. Of course that more than $1 billion acquisition of Nicira by VMware caused a lot of tension between VMware and Cisco. Interesting. I think back when to Cisco created the UCS platform it created a ripple effect in the networking world also. HP was a huge partner of Cisco's before UCS launched, and not long after UCS launched HP stopped selling Cisco gear. They got heavier into the networking component, and then here many years later we see who does the MPLS team partner with when they're no longer part of Cisco, and Chambers is no longer the CEO? Well, it's HPE front and center there. You're going to see John Chambers at HPE Discover, so it was a long relationship and change. And from the chip companies, Intel, of course, has built a sizeable networking business. We talked a bit about Mellanox and the acquisitions they've done. One you didn't mention but caused a huge impact in the industry, and something that Pensando's responding to is Amazon, but Annapurna Labs, and Annapurna Labs, a small Israeli company, and really driving a lot of the innovation when it comes to compute and networking at Amazon. The Graviton, Compute, and Nitro is what powers their Outposts solutions, so if you look at Amazon, they buy lots of pieces. It's that mixture of hardware and software. In early days people thought that they just bought kind of off-the-shelf white boxes and did it cheap, but really we see Amazon really hyper optimizes what they're doing. So Scott, let's talk a little bit about Pensando if we can. Amazon with the Nitro solutions built to Outposts, which is their hybrid solution, so the same stack that they put in Amazon they can now put in customers' data center. What Pensando's positioning is well, other cloud providers and enterprise, rather than having to buy something from Amazon, we're going to enable that. So what do you think about what you've seen and heard from Pensando, and what's that need in the market for these type of solutions? >> Yes, okay. So I'm glad you brought up Outposts, because I should've mentioned this next trend. We have, if you will, the disaggregated open software-based networking which is going on. It started in the public cloud, but then you have another trend taking hold, which is the so-called edge of the network, which is going to be driven by the emergence of 5G, and the technology called CBRS, and different wireless technologies that are emerging at the so-called edge of the network, and the purpose of the edge, remember, is to get closer to the customer, get larger bandwidth, and compute, and storage closer to the customer, and there's a lot of people excited about this, including the public cloud providers, Amazon's building out their Outposts, Microsoft has an Edge stack, the Azure Edge Stack that they've built. They've acquired a couple companies for $1 billion. They acquired Metaswitch, they acquired Affirmed Networks, and so all these public cloud providers are pushing their cloud out to the edge with this infrastructure, a combination of software and hardware, and that's the opportunity that Pensando is going after with this Outposts theme, and it's very interesting, Stu, because the coopetition is very tenuous. A lot of players are trying to occupy this edge. If you think about what Amazon did with public cloud, they sucked up all of this IT compute power and services applications, and everything moved from these enterprise private clouds to the public cloud, and Amazon's market cap exploded, right, because they were basically sucking up all the money for IT spending. So now if this moves to the edge, we have this arms race of people that want to be on the edge. The way to visualize it is a mini cloud. Whether this mini cloud is at the edge of Costco, so that when Stu's shopping at Costco there's AI that follows you in the store, knows everything you're going to do, and predicts you're going to buy this cereal and "We're going to give you a deal today. "Here's a coupon." This kind of big brother-ish AI tracking thing, which is happening whether you like it or not. Or autonomous vehicles that need to connect to the edge, and have self-driving, and have very low latency services very close to them, whether that's on the edge of the highway or wherever you're going in the car. You might not have time to go back to the public cloud to get the data, so it's about pushing these compute and data services closer to the customers at the edge, and having very low latency, and having lots of resources there, compute, storage, and networking. And that's the opportunity that Pensando's going after, and of course HPE is going after that, too, and HPE, as we know, is competing with its other big mega competitors, primarily Dell, the Dell/VMware combo, and the Cisco... The Cisco machine. At the same time, the service providers are interested as well. By the way, they have infrastructure. They have central offices all over the world, so they are thinking that can be an edge. Then you have the data center people, the Equinixes of the world, who also own real estate and data centers that are closer to the customers in the metro areas, so you really have this very interesting dynamic of all these big players going after this opportunity, putting in money, resources, and trying to acquire the right technology. Pensando is right in the middle of this. They're going after this opportunity using the P4 networking language, and a specialized ASIC, and a NIC that they think is going to accelerate processing and networking of the edge. >> Yeah, you've laid out a lot of really good pieces there, Scott. As you said, the first incarnation of this, it's a NIC, and boy, I think back to years ago. It's like, well, we tried to make the NIC really simple, or do we build intelligence in it? How much? The hardware versus software discussion. What I found interesting is if you look at this team, they were really good, they made a chip. It's a switch, it's an ASIC, it became compute, and if you look at the technology available now, they're building a lot of your networking just in a really small form factor. You talked about P4. It's highly programmable, so the theme of Future Proof Your Enterprise. With anything you say, "Ah, what is it?" It's a piece of hardware. Well, it's highly programmable, so today they position it for security, telemetry, observability, but if there's other services that I need to get to edge, so you laid out really well a couple of those edge use cases and if something comes up and I need that in the future, well, just like we've been talking about for years with software-defined networking, and network function virtualization, I don't want a dedicated appliance. It's going to be in software, and a form factor like Pensando does, I can put that in lots of places. They're positioning they have a cloud business, which they sell direct, and expect to have a couple of the cloud providers using this solution here in 2020, and then the enterprise business, and obviously a huge opportunity with HPE's position in the marketplace to take that to a broad customer base. So interesting opportunity, so many different pieces. Flexibility of software, as you relayed, Scott. It's a complicated coopetition out there, so I guess what would you want to see from the market, and what is success from Pensando and HPE, if they make this generally available this month, it's available on ProLiant, it's available on GreenLake. What would you want to be hearing from customers or from the market for you to say further down the road that this has been highly successful? >> Well, I want to see that it works, and I want to see that people are buying it. So it's not that complicated. I mean I'm being a little superficial there. It's hard sometimes to look in these technologies. They're very sophisticated, and sometimes it comes down to whether they perform, they deliver on the expectation, but I think there are also questions about the edge, the pace of investment. We're obviously in a recession, and we're in a very strange environment with the pandemic, which has accelerated spending in some areas, but also throttled back spending in other areas, and 5G is one of the areas that it appears to have been throttled back a little bit, this big explosion of technology at the edge. Nobody's quite sure how it's going to play out, when it's going to play out. Also who's going to buy this stuff? Personally, I think it's going to be big enterprises. It's going to start with the big box retailers, the Walmarts, the Costcos of the world. By the way, Walmart's in a big competition with Amazon, and I think one of the news items you've seen in the pandemic is all these online digital ecommerce sales have skyrocketed, obviously, because people are staying at home more. They need that intelligence at the edge. They need that infrastructure. And one of the things that I've heard is the thing that's held it back so far is the price. They don't know how much it's going to cost. We actually ran a survey recently targeting enterprises buying 5G, and that was one of the number one concerns. How much does this infrastructure cost? So I don't actually know how much Pensando costs, but they're going to have to deliver the right ROI. If it's a very expensive proprietary NIC, who pays for that, and does it deliver the ROI that they need? So we're going to have to see that in the marketplace, and by the way, Cisco's going to have the same challenge, and Dell's going to have the same challenge. They're all racing to supply this edge stack, if you will, packaged with hardware, but it's going to come down to how is it priced, what's the ROI, and are these customers going to justify the investment is the trick. >> Absolutely, Scott. Really good points there, too. Of course the HPE announcement, big move for Pensando. Doesn't mean that they can't work with the other server vendors. They absolutely are talking to all of them, and we will see if there are alternatives to Pensando that come up, or if they end up singing with them. All right, so what we have here is I've actually got quite a few interviews with the Pensando team, starting with I talked about MPLS. We have Prem, Jane, and Sony Giandoni, who are the P and the S in MPLS as part of it. Both co-founders, Prem is the CEO. We have Silvano Guy who, anybody that followed this group, you know writes the book on it. If you watched all the way this far and want to learn even more about it, I actually have a few copies of Silvano's book, so if you reach out to me, easiest way is on Twitter. Just hit me up at @Stu. I've got a few copies of the book about Pensando, which you can go through all those details about how it works, the programmability, what changes and everything like that. We've also, of course, got Hewlett Packard Enterprise, and while we don't have any customers for this segment, Scott mentioned many of the retail ones. Goldman Sachs is kind of the marquee early customer, so did talk with them. I have Randy Pond, who's the CFO, talking about they've actually seen an increase beyond what they expected at this point of being out of stealth, only a little over six months, even more, which is important considering that it's tough times for many startups coming out in the middle of a pandemic. So watch those interviews. Please hit us up with any other questions. Scott Raynovich, thank you so much for joining us to help talk about the industry, and this Pensando partnership extending with HPE. >> Thanks, Stu. Always a pleasure to join theCUBE team. >> All right, check out thecube.net for all the upcoming, as well as if you just search "Pensando" on there, you can see everything we had on there. I'm Stu Miniman, and thank you for watching theCUBE. 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(bright music) >> Announcer: From the Cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a Cube conversation. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, and welcome to a Cube conversation. I'm coming to you from our Boston area studio. And we're going to be digging into P4, which is, the programming protocol independent packet processors. And to help me with that, first time guest on the program, Mario Baldi, he is a distinguished technologist with Pensando. Mario, so nice to see you. Thanks for joining us. >> Thank you. Thank you for inviting. >> Alright, so Mario, you have you have a very, you know, robust technical career, lot of patents, you've worked on, you know, many technologies, you know, deep in the networking and developer world, but give our audience a little bit of your background and what brought you to Pensando. >> Yeah, yes, absolutely. So I started my my professional life in academia, actually, I worked for many years in academia, about 15 years exclusively in academia, and I was focusing both my teaching in research on computer networking. And then I also worked in a number of startups and established companies, in the last about eight years almost exclusively in the industry. And before joining Pensando, I worked for a couple of years at Cisco on a P4 programmable switch and that's where I got in touch with P4 actually. For the occasion I wore a T shirt of one of the P4 workshops. Which reminds me a bit of those people when you ask them, whether they do any sports, they tell you they have a membership at the gym. So I don't just have membership, I didn't just show up at the workshop. I've really been involved in the community and so when I learned what pensando was doing, I immediately got very excited that the ASIC that Pensando has developed these is really extremely powerful and flexible because it's fully programmable, partly programmable, with P4 partly programmable differently. And Pensando is starting to deploy these ASIC at the edge and Haas. And I think such a powerful and flexible device, at the edge of the network really opens incredible opportunities to, on the one hand implement what we have been doing in a different way, on the other hand, implement completely different solution. So, you know, I've been working most of my career in innovation, and when when I saw these, I immediately got very excited and I realized that Pensando was really the right place for me to be. >> Excellent. Yeah, interesting, you know, many people in the industry, they talk about innovation coming out of the universities, you know, Stanford often gets mentioned, but the university that you, you know, attended and also were associate professor at in Italy, a lot of the networking team, your MPLS, you know, team at Pensando, many of them came from them. Silvano guy, you know, written many books, they're, you know, very storied career in that environment. P4, maybe step back for a second, you know, you're you're deep in this group, help us understand what that is, how long it's been around, you know, and who participates in it with P4? >> Yeah, yeah. So as you were saying before, one of the few P4 from whom I've heard saying it, because everyone calls it P4 and nobody says what it really means. So programming protocol, independent packet processor. So it's a programming language for packet processors. And it's protocol independent. So it doesn't start from assuming that we want to use certain protocols. So P4 first of all allows you to specify what packets look like. So what the headers look like, and how they can be parsed. And secondly, because P4 is specifically designed for packet processing, and it's based on the idea that you want to look up values in tables. So it allows you to define tables, in keys that are being used to look up those tables and find an entry in the table. And when you find an entry, that entry contains an action and parameters to be used for that action. So the idea is that the package descriptions that you have in the program, define how the package should be processed. Header fields should be parsed, values extracted from them, and those values are being used as keys to look up into tables. And when the appropriate entry in the table is found, an action is executed and that action is going to modify those header fields, and these happens a number of times, the program specifies a sequence of tables that are being looked up, header fields being modified. In the end, those modified header fields are used to construct new packets that are being sent out of the device. So this is the basic idea of a P4 program. You specify a bunch of tables that are being looked up using values extracted from packets. So this is very powerful for a number of reasons. So first of all, its input, which is always good as we know, especially in networking, and then it maps very well on what we need to do, when we do packet processing. So writing a packet processing program, is relatively easy and fast. Could be difficult to write a generic programming in P4, you could not, but the packet processing program, it's easy to write. And last but not least, P4 really maps well on hardware that was designed specifically to process packet. What we call domain specific processes, right. And those processes are, in fact designed to quickly look up tables that might have decamping side, they might have processes that are specialized in performing, in building keys and performing table lookup, and modifying those header fields. So when you have those processors that are usually organized in pipelines to achieve a good throughput, then you can very efficiently take a P4 program and compile it to execute it very high speed on those processors. And this way, you get the same performance of a fixed function ASIC, but it's fully programmable, nothing is fixed. Which means that you can develop your features much faster, you can add features and fix bugs, you know, with a very short cycle, not with a four or five year cycle of baking a new ASIC. And this is extremely powerful. This is the strong value proposition of P4. >> Yeah, absolutely. I think that that resonates Mario, you know, I used to do presentations about the networking industry and you would draw timelines out there in decades. Because from the standard to get deployed for, you know, the the hardware to get baked, the customers to do the adoption, things take a really long time. You brought up, you know, edge computing, obviously, you know, we are, you know, it is really exciting, but it is changing really fast, and there's a lot of different, you know, capabilities out there. So if you could help us, you know, connect the dots between what P4 does and what the customers need. You know, we talked about multi-cloud and edge. What is it that you know, P4 in general, and what Pensando is doing with P4 specifically, enables this next generation architecture? >> Yeah, sure. So, Pensando has developed these card, which we call DSC distribute services card, that is built around an ASIC, that has a very very versatile architecture. It's a fully programmable. And it's fully programmable it's various levers, and one of them is in fact P4. Now this card and has a PCIE interface. So it can be installed in horse. And by the way, this is not the only way this powerful as you can be deployed. It's the first way Pensando has decided to use it. And so we have this card, it can be plugged into a host, it has two network interfaces. So it can be used as a network adapter. But in reality, because the card is fully programmable and it has several processors inside, it can be used to implement very sophisticated services. Things that you wouldn't even dream of doing with the typical network adapter, with a typical NIC. So in particular, this card, this ASIC contains a sizable amount of memory. Right now we have two sizes four, an eight gig but we are going to have versions of the card with even larger memory. Then it has some specialized hardware for specific functions like cryptographic functions, compression, computation of CRCs and if sophisticated queueing system with packet buffer with the queuing system to end the packets that have to go out to the interfaces or coming from the interfaces. Then it is several types of processors. It has generic processors, specifically arms, arm processors that can be programmed with general purpose languages. And then a set of processors that are specific for packet processing that are organized in a pipeline. In those, idea to be programmed with P4. We can very easily map a P4 program, on those pipeline of processor. So that's where Pensando is leveraging P4, is the language for programming those processes that allow us to process packets at the line rate of our 200 gigabit interfaces that we have in the card. >> Great. So Mario, what about from a customer viewpoint? Do they need to understand you know, how to program in P4, is this transparent to them? What's the customer interaction with it? >> Oh yeah, not at all. The Pensando platform, Pensando is offering a platform that is a completely turnkey solution. Basically the platform, first of all, the platform has a controller with which the user interacts, the user can configure policies on this controller. So using an intent based paradigm, the user defines policies that the controller is going to push those policies to the cards. So in your data center in your horse, in your data center, you can deploy thousands of those cards. Those cards implement distributed services. Let's say, just to give a very simple example, a distributed stateful firewall implemented on the all of those cards. The user writes a security policy, says this particular application can talk to these other particular application, and then translate it into configuration for those cards. It's transparently deployed on the cards that start in force the policies. So the user can use this system at this very high level. However, if the user has more specific needs, then the system, the platform offers several interfaces and several API's to program the platform through those interfaces. So the one at the highest level, is a REST API to the controller. So if the customer has an orchestrator, they can use that orchestrator to automatically send policies to the controller. Or if a customer already have their own controller, they can interact directly with the DSCs with the cards on the horse, with another API's that's fully open, is based on GRPC. And in this way, they can control the cards directly. If they need something even more specific, if they need a functionality that Pensando doesn't offer on those card, hasn't already ever written software for the cards, then customers can program the card, and the first level at which they can program it is the ARM processors. We have ARM processors, those are running in version of Linux, so customers can program it by writing C-code or Python. But if they have very specific needs, like when they write a software for the ARM processor, they can leverage the P4 code that we have already written for the card for those specialized packet processors. So they can leverage all of the protocols that our P4 program is already supported. And by the way because that's software, they can pick and choose in a Manga library of many different protocols and features we support, and decide to deploy them and then integrate them in their software running on the ARM processor. However, if they want to add their own proprietary protocols, if they want, if they need to execute some functionalities at very high performance, then they that's when they can write P4 code. And even in that case, we are going to make it very simple for them. Because they don't have to write everything from scratch. They don't have to worry about how to process AP packets, how to terminate TCP, we have to solve the P4 code for them. They can focus just on their own feature. And we are going to give them a development environment that allows them to focus on their own little feature and integrate it with the rest of our P4 program. Which by the way, is something that P4 is not designed for. P4 is not designed for having different programmers, write different pieces of the program and put them together. But we have the means to enable this. >> Okay, interesting. So, you know, maybe bring us inside a little bit, you know the P4 community, you're very active in it, when I look online, there's a large language consortium, many of, you know, all the hardware and software companies that I would expect in the networking space are on that list. So what's Pensando's participation in the community? And you were just teasing through, you know, what does P4 do and then what does Pensando, maybe enable, you know, above and beyond what, you know, P4 just does on its own? >> Yeah, so yes Pensando is very much involved in the community. There has been recently an event, online event that substituted the yearly P4 workshop. It was called the P4 expert round-table series. And Pensando had very strong participation. our CTO, Vipin Jain, had the keynote speech. Talking about how P4 can be extended beyond packet processing. P4, we said, has been designed for packet processing, but today, there are many applications that require message processing, which is more sophisticated then. And he gave a speech on how we can go towards that direction. Then we had a talk that was resulting from a submission that was reviewed and accepted on in fact, the architecture of our ASIC, and how it can be used to implement many interesting use cases. And finally, we participated into a panel in which we discussed how to use P4 in mix-ins Martin at the edge of the network. And there we argued with some use cases and example and code, how before it needs to be extended a little bit because NICs have different needs and open up different opportunities rather than switches. Now P4 was never really meant only for switches. But if we looked at what happened, the community has worked mostly on switches. For example it is defined that what is called the PSA, portable switch architecture. And we see that the NICs have an edge devices, have a little bit different requirements. So, one of the things we are doing within the communities working within one of the working groups, is called the architecture work group. And they are working in there to create the definition of a PNA, Portable NIC Architecture. Now, we didn't start this activity, this activity has started already in 2018. But it did slow down significantly, mostly because there wasn't so much of a push. So now Pensando coming on the market with this new architecture really gave new life to this activity. And we are contributing, actively we have proposed a candidate for a new architecture which has been discussed within the community. And, you know, just to give you an example, why do we need a new architecture? Because if you think of the switch, there are several reasons but one, it's very intuitive. If you think of a switch, you have packets coming in, they've been processed and packets go out. As we said before, there's the PMA then sorry, PSA architecture is meant for these kinds of operation. If you think of a NIC, it's a little bit different because yes, you have packets coming in, and yes, if you have multiple interfaces like our card, you might take those packets and send them out. But most likely what you want to do, you want to process those packets, and then not give the packets to the host. Otherwise the host CPU will have to process them again, to pass them again. You want to give some artifacts to the host, some pre-processed information. So you want to, I don't know take those packets for example, assemble many TCP messages and provide a stream of bytes coming out of this TCP connection. Now, these requires a completely different architecture, packets come in, something else goes out. And goes out, for example, through a PCI bus. So, you need the some different architecture and then you will need in the P4 language, different constructs to deal with the fact that you are modifying memory, you are moving data from the card to the host and vice versa. So again, back to your question, how are we involved in the workgroups? We are involved in the architecture workgroup right now to define the PNA, the Portable NIC Architecture. And also, I believe in the future we will be involved in the language group to propose some extensions to the language. >> Excellent. Well, Mario, thank you so much for giving us a deep dive into P4, where it is and you know some of the potential futures for where it will go in the future. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you. >> Alright. I'm Stu Miniman, thank you so much for watching the Cube. (gentle music)