>> From the Hard Rock Hotel in Las Vegas, it's theCUBE! Covering HoshoCon 2018! Brought to you by Hosho. >> Okay, welcome back everyone, we're here live in Las Vegas for the first security blockchain conference's inaugural event, HoshoCon, and it's all about the top brains in the industry coming together, with experience and tech chops to figure out the future in security. I'm John Furrier, the host of theCUBE. Our next guest, Andre McGregor, who's the partner and head of global security for TLDR. Welcome to theCUBE, thanks for joining me. >> Thank you for having me. >> So you have a background, we were just talking off-camera, FBI, you've been doing the cyber for a long time, cyber-security, mostly enterprise-grade, large-scale. Now we're in crypto, where you have small set of teams, running massive scale, with money involved. >> Correct. So guess what, money attracts. >> Right. People who want it, want that money. Lot of hacks, $400 million in Japan, plus 60 million over here, you add it all up, there's a billion so far this year, who knows what really the number is, it's pretty big. >> It is, and what's concerning and the reason why I came over in this space was the number of hacks that were happening. My company, we get probably a call a week, whether it's high net worth individuals, CEO, exchanges, we've helped a couple, some that you'd know of if I told you who they were, trying to get out of a very bad situation. And interim response has been big, but what we've learned is that it's the same old fraud, the same old security tactics that are being used against some of these crypto-companies. >> And we've seen it all the time, everyone's had fraud alerts on their credit card, this is like classic blocking and tackling, at a whole 'nother level. >> It is, because if you think about it from, like a traditional start-up, you have a company that's small, they have time to develop their MVP, they go out and do maybe a seed round, friends and family, they're sort of ramping up over time, whereas we basically flipped the model upside-down, the same six founders now have $10 million worth of crypto, and they're not protecting it in the ways they think they should, because they're in hyper-growth mode. So the bad guys have determined that as a great place to target, and now as we see in the news, it's actually happening. >> Yeah, and Hartej, the co-founder of Hosho, was just one talking about physical security, in the sense of you got to watch out where you go too now, it's not just online security, it's physical security. So start-ups have that kind of fast and loose kind of culture. >> Well, if you think about it, traditional security in corporations, I can put everyone in a building, I have this similar or same network egress points, I can protect those, I can do the gates, guards, guns, perimeters around, but I got people working from home now in the crypto space, everyone's got their own setup. If someone's in an audience, they say oh, I've been in the blockchain space since 2010 or 11, I can make assumptions about them, about their financial worth, and other people are doing the same, but having nefarious reasons. >> Yeah, you connected the dots okay, it was $0.22 in 2011, so therefore, if they had kept a little bit of Bitcoin-- >> They would be doing very well. >> They're a target. >> Therefore, they're a target now. So when you think about it, you put all those scams together, it becomes sort of a hot topic for-- >> I just got into crypto. (laughs) >> Good answer, good answer. >> Alright, so let's talk about this security hack. Because obviously, in the enterprise tech, we cover a lot of those events across the year. IoT Edge is a huge topic, cloud computing booming, so now you have a lot of compute, which is good, and for bad actors too. So you have now a service area that's now, no perimeter, there's no egress points to manage. Is there a digital way to kind of map this out, and does blockchain give us any advantages or is there anything on the horizon that you see, where we can, in digital form? >> Well, I mean the true reason I came to the blockchain space, having worked hundreds of victim notifications and several dozen actual intrusions, from large intrusions at banks that are top five in the world, all the way down to small core defense contractors, you realize it's always a server you didn't know about, credentials that had more access than they should, obviously gaining access to a centralized server, that then gets exposed and allows that data to be leaked out. So the idea of blockchain and being able to decentralize, distribute that data, own it, and keep it cryptographically pure, and also being able to essentially remove the single source of failure that we saw in a lot of these hacks is exciting. Obviously, blockchain is also not the answer to everything. So in some ways, the spread sheet is still a spread sheet, and the MongoDB will still be the MongoDB, but-- >> The post-it next to your computer, your private key on it. >> But at the same point in time, it all comes down to cyber-hygiene, right? I mean, the stuff that we're looking at, the hacks that we're seeing, the hacks that I'm dealing with and my company dealing with, day in and day out, are not sophisticated. They may be sophisticated actors, but they're using insophisticated means, and of course, I hate to harp on it, but e-mail is still the number one intrusion vector, we all have it, we all use it. You could take stats from the FBI that says 92%, you could take stats from Verizon that says 93%, but that will be the number one way in. >> And phishing is the classic attack point. >> It will always be, because-- >> It's easy. >> I can manipulate people, I find the right opportunity, I always say even I've been phished. It happens, the way your mind is, it's just how you react, is what we need to teach people. >> It's really clicking on that one thing, that just takes one time. >> Yep. >> A PDF that you think is a document from work, or potentially a job opportunity, a new thing, sports scores, your favorite team, girlfriend, boyfriend, whatever, I mean, you don't know! >> But, I'm going to challenge you on this, you get, you click on that bad link, or you feel like your computer has been hacked, who do you call? Do you actually have someone that you can call? There's no cyber 911. Unless you are a high net worth individual, or being targeted by a nation-state, you're not calling the FBI. So who do you call? And that's a problem that we have in our industry right now. I mean, I guess I've been the person that people have been calling, which is fine, I want to help them. 12 years as a firefighter on top of my FBI career, I'm used to helping people in time of need. But really, in the grand scheme of things, there's not enough Mandiants or Verizons are too big. So for these smaller, six-person companies, that don't have $500,000 to spend on instant response, they actually have no one to call when they actually do click something bad. >> And the people they punch in a call, the ones that aren't actually there to help them. Sometimes they get honey-potted into another vector. >> Sure. >> Which is hey, how can I help you? >> Or I even challenge it a bit further. You call any of these companies when your phone has been hacked, you SIM-swap, whatever it is, and you need to sign a master services agreement, you need to go through all the legalese, while you're actively being hacked. Like, it's happening hour after hour, and you're seeing it, your accounts are being compromised and being taken over, and you're trying to find outside counsel to do redline. So in emergency services, we say, don't exchange business cards at the disaster site. It's not the time that you should be saying hi, I'm introducing myself, we should figure out all the retainers, inter-response, legal questions beforehand, so that at 2:00 in the morning, someone calls, and you have someone pick up the phone. >> Yeah, and you know what the costs are going to be, 'cause it's solve the problem at hand, put out that fire, if you will. Okay, so I got to ask you a question on how do people protect themselves? 'Cause we know Michael Terpin's doing a fireside chat, it's well known that he sued AT&T, he had his phone SIM swapped out, this is a known vector in the crypto community. Most people maybe in the mainstream might not know it. But you know, your phone can be hacked. >> Yes. >> Simple two-factor authentication's not enough. >> Correct. >> What is the state-of-the-art solution for people who want to hold crypto, any meaningful amount, could be casual money, to high net worth individual wants to have a lot of crypto. >> I mean, I spent a good amount of my time talking about custody. We've sort of pivoted off to a new part of our business line, that deals specifically around institutional custody solutions, and helping people get through this particular process. But we all know, especially from that particular case, that SMS compromises, after account takeover of a phone, is high. Hardware tokens are always going to be something that I'm going to, Harp or YubiKey, or something like that, where I'm still having the ability to keep a remote adversary away from being able to attack my system that has my private keys, or whatever high-value data I have on it. But if I think about it at the end of the day, I'm going to need to transfer that risk. I would like to say that we can transfer all risk, but instead for the people that have a lot of crypto, you're going to need to look for a good custody solution, you're going to need to look and trust the team, you're going to need to look and trust the technology they have, and you're going to have to get insurance. Because there are so many vectors, in a certain point in time, we can't go back to the wild west, where we're actually >> The insider job is, is really popular now too. >> It is, but there are ways around the collusion, counterparty, third party risk of ensuring that not one person can take the billion dollars worth of crypto and run away off to Venezuela and never appear again. But again, it comes down to basic hygiene. I ask people, I've surveyed hundreds of people in the crypto space, and I ask simple questions like VPNs, and I'm still getting a third to a half of people are using VPNS. Very simple things that people are not doing. When you looks at password for example, if anyone still has a password under 12 characters, then game over. I mean, there are a variety of ways of hacking them. I can use GPU servers to do them very quickly. I won't go into all the different options that are there. People still-- >> So 12 characters, alphanumeric obviously, with-- >> With special characters as well. >> Special characters. >> But the assumption, let's just make the assumption, that either those passwords have been cracked already, because they've already been dumped, people share passwords, they get used again, and then the entropy is exponentially higher with every single character after 12. So my password's 22 characters, sure it's a pain to type it in, but when you think about it, at the end of the day, when I combine that with a password manager that also has a YubiKey that's a hardware token, and I require that access all the time, then I don't run into the problem that someone's going to compromise a single system to get into multiple systems. >> And then also, I know there's a lot of Google people as well, they're looking at security at the hardware level, down to the firmware. >> Sure, sure. >> There's all kinds of-- >> I mean, obviously, you could use the TPM chip as well, and that's something that we should be better at, as a society. >> So while I got you here, I might as well ask you about the China super micro modchip baseboard management controller, BMC, that was reported in Bloomberg, debunked, Apple and Amazon both came out and said no, that's been confirmed. They shift their story a little bit too, the reality probably there is some mods going on, it's manufactured in China. I mean, it's a zero-margin business going to zero, why not just let the Chinese continue to develop, and have a higher-value security solution somewhere else, that's what some people are discussing, like okay, like the DRAM market was. >> Yep. >> Let the Japanese own that, they did, and then Intel makes the Pentium. Wall Street Journal reported that, Andy Kessler. So the shifts in the industry, certainly China's manufacturing the devices. There's no surprise when you go to China, and if you turn on your iPhone, it says Apple would like to push an update, but that's not Apple, it's a forged certificate, pretty much public knowledge. The DNS is controlled by China, and a certificate, these are things that they can control, that's, this is the new normal. >> It, it-- >> If you know the hardware, you can exploit it. >> We've been dealing with supply-chain issues since Maxtor hard drives in Indonesia. So was I shocked when I hear stories about that? No, I'm sort of scared myself into a corner, working in skiffs over the years and reading the various reports that come out about supply chain poisoning. >> Certainly possible. >> It's happening. I mean, it's just to what extent is still something that may or may not be known to its full extent, but it's something that will happen, always happens, and will continue to happen. And so at a certain point in time, capitalism does step in and says alright, well, guess what, China, the way I see it is, China wants to be a super-power. At a certain point, they know that people are looking at them, and saying we can't trust you. So they're going to clean up their house, just like anyone else. >> It's inevitable for them. >> It is inevitable. Because they need to show that they can be a trusting force, in the world economy. And at the same time, we're going to have competition out there that's essentially going to say, alright, we can actually prove to have a much better, stronger, validated supply chain that you'll use. >> I mean, IoT and blockchain, great solutions for supply chain. >> 100%. >> I mean, so this is where-- >> I mean, we're talking, I mean, I was actually on a plane flying from Phoenix, to Santa Fe, New Mexico, and I was sitting next to a guy, who was just like, I just want to use a blockchain to be able to deal with a supply chain around compromised food. So in the sense that if you think about it, fish for example, there's a lot of fake fish, fake type of tuna and other stuff that's out there, that people don't know the difference. But the restaurants are paying double, triple the amount of money for it. You start taking things like elephant tusks, you take things like just being able to track things that no one's really thinking about, and you're just like huh, I never thought of it that way. So at the end of the day, I still get surprised with what people are thinking about, that they can do with the blockchain. >> So Andre, question for you here, this event, what's the impact of this event and for the industry, in your opinion? Obviously, a lot of smart people here talking, candidly, sometimes maybe a little bit contentious about philosophies, regulation, no regulation, self-governance, lot of different things being discussed as exploration, to a new proficiency level that we need to get to. What are some of the hallway conversations you're hearing, and involved in? >> A lot of mine are obviously around custody. That is the topic of the moment. And for me, I'm in learning mode. I recognize that I've spent a lot of time in cyber-security. However, whereas it relates to blockchain and digital asset custody, whether it's utility tokens or security tokens, I'm on the CFTC Technology Advisory Committee, specifically, with cyber-security and custody, and so I want to take in as much information as I can, bring it back to the committee, bring it back to the commissioners, and help them create the proper regulations and standards, whether it's through an SRO, or it's through the government itself. >> For the folks that may watch this video later, that are new to the area, what does custody actually mean? Obviously, holding crypto, but define custody in context of these conversations, what is it, what's the threshold issues that are being discussed? >> Sure. I mean, to break it down, custody is very similar to a bank. So you are, you're saying I have a lot of X. It could be baseball cards, it could be gold bars, it could be fiat cash. And I want to have someone hold it, and I'm going to trust them with that. Of course, I'm transferring that risk, and with that, I have an expectation to have a qualified custodian, that has rules and regulations of how they're going to actually manage it, how they're going to control it, ensure that the risk, that people aren't going to take it. It could be, again, the Monet, it could be the Johnny Bench Ricky card, it could be 100 million blocks of gold. But I also want to have a level of insurance. That insurance could come from the insurance industry themselves, and allowing me to protect it in case something does happen to that, or the government. The FDIC, $250,000 for your bank account is a type of insurance that people are using. By the end of the day, from an institutional perspective, you want a pure custodian that takes all the risk. The government wants to say a certain point, that that custodian can allow for margin call, so that the client can't come in and say, well I'm not going to pay out $100 million worth of crypto, and I'm going to seize, or seizure of funds as well. And that's what's being set up right now. Traditional banks are not ready to handle that. Traditional auditing firms, like PWC or Ernst & Young, are still trying to figure out how they'd even be given a qualified opinion, as it relates to how-- >> So it's not so much that they are not have the appetite to do it, they don't have systems, they don't have expertise, >> They don't have systems, they don't have expertise, >> They don't have workflows. >> And right now, things are so new and so volatile, that they're sort of almost putting their toe in the water, but really not sure what the temperature is yet of the water to hop in. >> If someone wants to go to court, you say hey, prove it. Well, it's encrypted, I don't know who did it. >> Well, and the thing is is that when you have 53 states and territories with different money-transmitting laws, on top of the countless federal agencies and departments that are managing that, it is hard to come to consensus. It is much easier in a place like Bermuda, where the government is small enough where everyone can get together pretty quickly, have consensus on an opinion of how they want to deal with the crypto market, deal with custody, pass a regulation, and what's nice about Bermuda is it has crown ascendancy, so the UK government still approves it. >> And they move fast on the regulation side. They literally just passed-- >> They are the only jurisdiction that has a fully complete law surrounding cryptocurrency. >> You're bullish on Bermuda. >> I am, because I saw the efficiency there. And I expressed my same opinion with the CFTC, when I was doing my hearing last week, that it's nice to see the speed, but it's also a small island that allows for that speed. >> And they have legitimate practices that have been going on for years in other industries. >> Right, so there's no dirty money, there's no anything that people are sort of concerned with, they have the same AML, KYC, anti-money laundering and know your customer regulations that you would expect if you had your money in the United States. >> Yeah, we had a chance to interview the honorable charge there. >> Premier Burt, oh very nice. >> Yeah, he's great, and Toronto, so it's awesome. >> Nice. >> Alright, so final takeaway, for this show here, what's your takeaway about this event, the impact to the industry? >> This is a very important event, because I think people are still trying to get their footing around blockchain, they're still trying to get their footing around digital asset protections. And if we can get the smart people in one room, and they can share knowledge, and then we can come together as a community, and create some standards that make sense, then we're protecting the world. >> Well Andre, I'm glad you're in the industry, 'cause your expertise and background on the commercial side and government side certainly lend well to the needs. (laughs) So to speak. We need you, we need more of you. Thanks for coming on theCUBE, really appreciate your commentary and your insight. It's theCUBE, bringing the insights here, we are live in Las Vegas for HoshoCon, I'm John Furrier with theCUBE, we'll be back with more coverage after this short break. (upbeat music)

(techno music) >> Announcer: Live, from New York, it's theCUBE. Covering Blockchain Week. Now, here's John Furrier. (techno music) >> Hello and welcome back. this is the exclusive coverage from theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, the co-host. We're here in New York City for special on the ground coverage. We go out where all the action is. It's happening here in New York City for Blockchain Week, New York, #BlockchainWeekNY Of course, Consensus 2018 and a variety of other events, happening all over the place. We got D-Central having a big boat event here, tons of events from Hollywood. We got New York money, we got Hollywood money, we got nerd money, it's money everywhere, and of course great deals are happening, and I'm here with two friends who have done a deal. Al Burgio is a CEO of DigitalBits co-founder, and Nithin who's the partner at Arcadia Crypto Ventures. You guys we've, you know, we're like family now, and you're hiding secrets from me. You did a deal. Al, what's going on here? Some news. >> Yeah, well first John, thanks for having us. We always love coming on the show, and really enjoy spending time with you and so forth. We, you know previous conversations that we've had, we were not out there fundraising. But really had the opportunity to meet a lot of great people Nithin and his firm being definitely one of them. And as a result of that, really building this, say, following, these relationships within the venture community, more specifically the crypto venture community. When we were ready to actually go out and do, let's say a first round, for us it happened very quickly, and it was a result of being able to leverage those relationships that we had. For me, it was kind of remarkable to see that support come and happen so quickly. Normally venture, it's just a process. Many many months. >> John: Long road. >> Then a month to close. >> John: Kiss all the frogs. >> Yeah, here it's like, you know, people can do due diligence on the fly, You have an opportunity with events like this. >> John: They're smart. >> They're smart, and and there's an opportunity to really foster these relationships in this really tight-knit community. And, you know, Nithin and his firm being obviously one of those. And so when we were ready to go out and do our first round, it happened quickly, and I'd like to think that in a lot of ways, it happened amongst friends. >> Well, you're being humble. We've been covering you, you've been on theCUBE earlier, when you just started the idea, so it's fun to watch you have this idea come to fruition, but you're in a, you're hitting a TAM a Total Available Market that's pretty large. And that's one of the secrets, to have a TAM. Aggressive bold move, we'll how it turns out for you, but you know, you got to have the moonshot, you're going after the loyalty market, which is completely run by the syndicate, what do you want to call it, the mafia of loyalty. >> Yeah, well, I would say that in some cases, those that are supporting us see that as really just one use case. Because we built this general-purpose blockchain, one of the use cases and one of the first use cases that were out there to support, happens to be the loyalty space. >> John: Big. And it's massive, highly fragmented but massive market, and we can solve a lot of liquidity issues with our technology. But then it goes beyond that. So it's a big market at the start, and then that can scale even greater from there. and I think that's part of what, I mean obviously, I'm not going to speak for Nithin. >> Nithin, let me weigh in here, pass the mic over. Nithin talk about the deal, why these guys? I know you met 'em, you like Al, and the feedback I've heard from other folks is he's a classic entrepreneur and that obviously, the entrepreneur gets the deal, but obviously you don't just give money 'cause you like someone. What about this deal is it that you guys like? You guys been there early, you got some great people on your team, what about this deal is it that you like? >> Sure, for us, Al met pretty much most of, almost all the criteria that we had, okay. That we had when we go, the thesis before we go fund someone. We don't get so many deals like that. Usually we get you know, they made 50% of the criteria, we might still put money because you can't get the 100%. So one thing, Al as a founder, he's experienced, he has done it multiple times before, he sold companies. Tech guy, which is very key for us. A tech project is very key. Okay, second thing, he's built the whole thing. It's not like he's raising the money to go and build it. He built it, now he's raising money to go for go to market strategies, which makes sense. He's shown it, and we tested it out. So like, we were completely blown away. He has a team behind 'im. He's built a team on every side, on the marketing side, on PR, events. And the idea, this is a general blockchain, but he's addressing a very specific issue. It is a real problem. Loyalty points, or rewards points, or gift points. Or whatever you call them. It is segmented, it's fragmented, and this is a chance. And there might be many people who are trying to solve this problem, but I think Al has the greatest possibility, or probability, of becoming the winner. >> You and I have talked on theCUBE before, both of you guys are CUBE alumni, I know you both, so I'll ask you, 'cause I'll just remind everyone, we've talked about token economics. One of the things that's coming up here at the Consensus 2018 event in New York, onstage certainly, and some fireworks in one of the sessions, is like if you're not decentralized, why the hell are you doing a decentralized model? So one of the criterias is, the fit for the business model, has to fit the notion of a decentralized world, with the ability of tokens becoming an integral part. What about this deal makes that happen? Obviously, fragmentation, is that still decentralized? So, how are you sorting through the nuances of saying, okay, is it decentralized the market for him, and this deal? Or does it fit? >> See no, decentralize is one thing okay, in here, more than decentralized, I would say there was the platform, so that all the companies can come in, use this common platform, release it, and as a user you're getting a chance to atomically swap it if you don't like something. Most of the reward points or loyalty points go waste. Maybe the companies want it to go waste, I don't know if that is. >> It's a natural burn at equilibrium going on anyway right? Perfect fit! >> So that is the only, that was the only doubt that we had. Would companies want this, because do they want their customers' loyalty points going waste rather than swapping it for something else? That was the only question that we had. Well, that's a question that will get answered in the market. But otherwise we hadn't seen something like this before. >> What's your take of the show so far? We saw each other in the hallway as we were getting set up for theCUBE, for two days of coverage, in New York, for Blockchain Week, New York, what's your take? Obviously pretty packed. >> Oh my god, it's so packed, and it's great, the show is going on. It is bringing a lot of money in, it's bringing all the investors in a new money, old money, traditional money, nerd money as you said. >> It smells like money! >> Everybody's coming in. See the beauty about those things coming in is, you're going to get a lot of people from other fields that are going to come into this field to solve problems. 'Cause earlier, if there is no money coming in, you're going to have very smart people, or very intelligent people stick with physics or whichever was their field. Now, they're going to look into the space because they're getting paid. See that brings more people who are intelligent, and who can solve problems. That is very key for me. >> Al, I want to ask you as an entrepreneur, one things you usually have to struggle with, as any entrepreneur, is navigating the 3-D chess you got to play, whether it's competitive strategy, market movement, certainly the market's moving and shifting very quickly, but you've got growth, big tailwind for you. What's your takeaway? Because now you have new things coming on. Every every day it seems like a new shoe is dropping. SEC's firing a warning on utility tokens, security tokens are still coming, are now coming online, but that looks very promising, and then ecosystems become super important. You guys just announced news this morning around the ecosystem. >> Yeah, tomorrow we have some. We had some news today, but we have more tomorrow. >> John: Well talk about the news. >> Yeah, so we have a multi-tiered go to market strategy. Obviously in the loyalty space, again I want to emphasize, it's just one use case, but it's a massive one. You have brands, the enterprise. And many of those those enterprises or brands may operate their loyalty program internally, in terms of like back offices systems, in some cases they're outsourcing the app to a SAS provider, some application provider, that's kind of hidden in the background. But let's just say like Hilton. I use Hilton, it's the location for the event, but Hilton, you have this user experience using this app, but maybe that technology, the SAS application that's powering that, is actually not Hilton technology. And so let's just say, there's 30 million people in the Hilton program and there may be 30 million of them on the Marriott, coexisting on some SAS application. And so that's another important category for us. SAS providers and so forth, supporting that industry. And then last but not least, today, whether enterprise or SAS company, many cases not touching their own hardware, right? They're using the cloud. >> So they're outsourcing the backend. >> Yeah, and so you have managed cloud providers. >> So what does it mean for the market? I don't understand, I'm not following you. >> Well, I guess what I'm saying is that there needs to be a common standard, across enterprise application provider, in global cloud community, cloud is the new hardware. >> True. So horizontally scaling loyalties as we were (mumbles). >> Exactly, so we have, we're basically securing partnerships on all three levels, to make sure that, if you want to use new technology, you want to ensure that it's widely supported, across a variety of partners you may want to work with if you're an enterprise. Whether, a software company, cloud company, and so forth. You want to be able to ensure that it can back up the truck. So we've basically signed partnerships at all of these tiers. You're going to see news in the morning. It's late here on a Monday evening. So tomorrow 9:00 a.m, major cloud company, one of the major cloud companies, and there's more to follow, making an announcement that they've joined our ecosystem partner program, and supporting this open source technology in a number of different ways. Which we're really excited about. >> You see ecosystem as a strategic move for you. >> Absolutely, this is, for us, this is, it's all about helping the consumer, but it's not about one consumer at a time for us. It's very much an enterprise play. It's one enterprise at a time. And with each enterprise we basically add to the ecosystem millions if not tens of millions of consumers instantly. >> Nithin I want to ask you a question, because what he just brought up is interesting to me as well. As a new thing, it's not new, but it's new to the crypto world, new to the analog world, that's not in the tech field. Tech business, we all know about global system integrators, we know about ecosystems, we know the value of developer programs, and community, all those things, check, check, check. But now those things are coming to new markets. People have never seen an ecosystem play before. So it's kind of, not new, it's new for some people, it's a competitive advantage opportunity. >> True, it is. See the whole thing is so new, that you can't even define it at this point. It's very hard to define. It's like, see, as an example I would say, none of us thought that when the iPhone came, there would be a 60 billion dollar taxi sharing economy that comes out of it, right? Same thing. Blockchain comes, we just don't know. And it's very hard to predict. >> New brands are going to emerge, I mean if you look at every major inflection point, I point to a couple that I think are relevant, TCP/IP was created, internetworking. >> Yep. >> That essentially went after proprietary networks, like IBM, Digital, Stacks, but it didn't replace, it wasn't a new functionality, it was interoperability. >> Yes. >> The web, HTTP, created a whole new functionality. >> Yep. >> Out of that emerged new brands. >> Yeah. >> So I think this wave's coming is a, new brands are going to emerge. >> Here, what's the brand, I don't know what's going to emerge. There it was interoperability. >> John: Well, new players. >> It's here, it's more, the collaboration. The collaboration is so huge, it's the scale is so huge, in the sense you can collaborate across the world. You're cutting those borders, there are no borders that can hold you. Even though interoperability happened in internet, There were the Googles, and the Facebook, that still had those borders. >> Well, don't put it, Cisco came out of that, 3Com, and those generations, but the hyper-scalers came out of the web. >> Yep. >> So I'm saying, well I'm saying, I want to get your reaction to, is I think that is such a small scale relative to blockchain and crypto because it's global, it's every industry, it's not just tech it's just like everything. So there's got to be new brands. Startups going to come out of the woodwork, that's my point. >> It's not yet time for the brands to come in. See that's the whole thing. So let's put it this way, the internet was there from 1978, if you really look at it, ARPANET or DARPA, those things were there. Email was there, but it was by 1997, or by the time we all came to know Google it was 2001. There is that gap between the brand forming, because it has to permeate first, more people have to use it, like what is the user-- >> Everything was was a bubble, but everything happened. I got food delivered to my house today, right? It happened, people were saying that's a crazy idea. >> It's now it's going on, right. So it's the timing and they know the time for it to permeate so here, how many people are using Bitcoin, and to do what? Most of them are just speculating right? There's very few real use case of remittance or speculative trading, that's what's happening. See that's what I said. The other use cases, it has to permeate. And that comes with more user adoption. And the user adoption initially is going to come from the speculation. >> I think it's a good sign, honestly I think it's a tell sign, because I remember when the web was new, I was in coming out right and growing in the industry. People were poo poo, oh that's just for kids. The big company's said, we wouldn't, who the hell is going to use the World Wide Web? Enter the search engines. >> I remember that like it was yesterday. I forget that I'm not a kid anymore, and I had the opportunity to be an entrepreneur during that era. One of the things I want to add is that, we had, I think what Nithin is really pointing out, it started with the infrastructure, you had network engineers and ISPs, you know, and email. But what was the enterprise application here? What was that consumer application, and that followed right? So it started infrastructure, then it evolved. Once we saw these applications, enterprises started to go crazy. Whether it was the Ubers of the world surfacing, or enterprises reinventing themselves, that's kind of the next wave. >> Well, this is why I think you're a good opportunity. 'Cause I remember licking stamps and sending out envelopes to get people to come to a seminar, held at a hotel. That's how you did it in the old world. The web replaced that with direct response. >> But there's some, there's something else-- >> The mainframe ran faster than the web. You're replacing an old loyalty, that's like licking the stamps. It's not about comparing what you're doing to something else. >> There's also something that helps, that we're not acknowledging, that really helped take internet from 1.0 to 2.0, it's Linux. You know I remember websites were insanely expensive. It was Windows servers, it was Sun Solaris, all of this crazy, expensive, server systems, that you needed to have, so the barrier of entry was extremely high. Then Linux came along, and you still needed to have your own data center space, and so still high, but the licensing fees kind of went away. >> And now with containers and Kubernetes-- >> Exactly. >> I made a bet I was going to get Kubernetes in a crypto show. >> Anybody from a bedroom could start a company, right? You could do it with your pajamas still on. >> John: Well orchestration's easier. >> Absolutely. So this has started, this really, revolution. Now you have blockchain and you start to introduce enterprise-grade blockchain technologies, it's the next wave, you know, it's not VoIP, it's value over IP. >> Okay, I'm going to ask both you guys a final question, to end this segment here at the block event. I know you guys want to get back, and I'm taking you anyway from the schmoozing and networking and the fun out there, deejay. Predictions, next year this time, what are we going to be? What's the we're going to look like? What's going to evolve? I mean we had a conversation with Richard, who partnered with you guys at Arcadia Crypto Partners, saying the trading things interesting, the liquidity has changed. What's your take? I want you guys both to take a minute to make a prediction. Next year, what's different, who's out, who's in, what's happening, is it growing? >> So I, you know, I would say this, surprisingly, CTOs, I love CTOs, but many CTOs, I would say that well above 50% of CTOs, still can't spell blockchain. Really, and what I mean by that, really understand the transformational power what this is, in terms of how this is really web 3.0. This is going to change so many industries, create so much value for consumers, help businesses and so forth, and we're going to cross that 50% mark. >> Next year. >> With CTOs-- >> 50% of what? Be clear on-- >> Basically, we're going, in terms of the net, that blockchain's going to capture, and really enterprises and not just enterprises, service providers and so forth-- >> 50% of the mind share or 50% of the projects? >> Yeah no, I'm talking it's, people aren't going to be saying, oh, blockchain, isn't that Bitcoin? They're going to really understand, and they're going to understand that impact. And over the course of the next 12 months, we're going to see that. And it starts, obviously in many cases, with the CIO, CTO of many companies. There are definitely a lot of CIOs and CTOs on the forefront of innovation that get it, but what I'm saying is that more than 50% don't. >> So you're saying-- They're very busy in doing what they're doing today, and it hasn't hit them yet. >> To recap, you're saying by next year, 50% of CTOs or CTO equivalents, will have a clear understanding of what blockchain is-- >> Absolutely. >> And what it can do. >> Absolutely. >> Nithin, your prediction, next year, this time, what's different, what's new, what's the prediction? >> So, one of the key things that I think is going to happen is there's going to be a lot more training, and knowledge that's going to spread out, so that a lot more people understand, what blockchain is and what bitcoin is. Even now, as Al said, he was telling about CTOs, if the CTOs are, that's the state, that they can't spell blockchain, imagine where the real common man is. You've got people like Jamie Dimon coming on TV and saying he doesn't like Bitcoin, but he likes blockchain. I'm like, what the heck is he saying? That he likes a database? >> He was selling it short 100% (chuckles) >> Yeah, he likes a database. And then you have Warren Buffett coming over there-- >> Rat poison. >> And then this is rat poison. And like my question is, does any of his funds buy gold? Do they buy gold? He was telling that this is only worth as much as the next buy buying at a higher price. >> What's Warren Buffett's best tech investment? >> I don't know, I think he bought Apple, he started buying Apple now, right? When it's reached a thousand bucks? Or it reached a trillion dollars or close to that, or 750 billion? >> The Apple buy was 2006. If you were there, then you were good. >> Yeah, but-- >> So, your prediction? >> Market wise I don't know, what's going to happen? I'm expecting this, the crypto, the utility token, or the crypto market, to be at least a six trillion dollar business. But it'll happen next year? Definitely not. But I've been proven wrong, like I was expecting it to happen by 2025, but then it went to 750 billion by December. Well, it's not too far. >> You did get the prediction right, in the Bahamas at POLYCON18, about the drop around the tax consequences of the-- >> Right. >> People slinging trades around, not knowing the tax consequences. >> Right, right. We don't know because, who knows? Because what is going on over there, is IRS is still saying it's a property. That's what the last (slurs) is. SEC is saying it is all equity, and the CFTC was saying it's commodity. So what tax do I pay? >> Okay, lightning round question, 'cause I want to, one more popped in my head. The global landscape, from an investor standpoint, the US, we know what's going on in the US, accredited, SEC is throwing, firing across, bullets across the bow of the boats, kind of holding people in line. What percentage of US big investors will be overseas by next year? >> Percentage of-- >> Having, meaning having deals being done, proxy deals being down outside the US, what percentage? >> It's still going to be low though. That is going to be low, because that, I don't think the US investor, means the large scale of those investors-- >> You don't think the big funds will co-locate outside the US? >> There will be some, but not enough. >> Put a number, a percentage. >> Percentage-wise I think it's still going to be less than 10%. >> Al, your prediction? >> In terms of investment? >> Investment, investors saying hey, I got money here, I want to put it out there. >> Outside of the United States? >> Share money, not move their whole fund, but do deals from a vehicle. >> Do deals outside. I think I agree with Nithin. >> Throwing darts at the board here. >> No, I'm going to clarify. There's definitely massive investment happening overseas. In some respects probably bigger than the United States. So that's not going away. If anything that's going to grow. But your question is, in terms of US entities, making abroad investments, overseas investments, versus just domestic? I think that trend doesn't necessarily change. You have the venture community, there are certain bigger venture funds that can have global operations 'cause at the end of the day, they need to have global operations, to be able to do that, and most venture funds aren't that massive, they don't have that infrastructure. So they're going to focus on their own backyard. So I don't necessarily think blockchain changes the venture mindset. It's just easier for them logistically to do due diligence on their own backyard and invest in those. >> Guys, always a pleasure. Great to see you. You guys are like friends with entourage here, great to get the update here at Blockchain Week. We get to Silicon Valley week, we'll connect up again. I'm John Furrier, here in New York, theCUBE's continuing coverage of crypto, decentralized applications, and blockchain of course, we're all over it. You'll see us all over, all of the web, all the shows. Thanks for watching. (techno music)