>> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frigg here with theCUBE. We're at Data Privacy Day 2018 here at Linked-In's brand new, downtown San Francisco headquarters not in Sunny Vale. And we're excited to be here for the second time. And we've got Eve Maylar back she's a VP in innovation and emerging tech at Forge Rock, we caught up last year, so great to see you. >> Likewise. >> So what's different in 2018 than 2017? >> Well GDPR, the general data protection regulation Well, also we didn't talk about it much here today, but the payment services directive version two is on the lips of everybody in the EU who's in financial services, along with open banking, and all these regulations are actually as much about digital transformation, I've been starting to say hashtag digital transformation, as they are about regulating data protection and privacy, so that's big. >> So why aren't those other two being talked about here do you think? >> To a certain extent they are for the global banks and the multinational banks and they have as much impact on things like user consent as GDPR does, so that's a big thing. >> Jeff: Same penalties? >> They do have some penalties, but they are as much about, okay, I'm starting to say hashtag in front of all these cliches, but you know they are as much about trying to do the digital single market as GDPR is, so what they're trying to do is have a level playing field for all those players. So the way that GDPR is trying to make sure that all of the countries have the same kind of regulations to apply so that they can get to the business of doing business. >> Right, right, and so it's the same thing trying to have this kind of unified platform. >> Yup, absolutely, and so that affects companies here if they play in that market as well. >> So there's a lot of talk on this security site when you go to these security conferences about baking security in everywhere, right? It can't be OL guard anymore, there is no such thing as keeping the bad guys out, it's more all the places you need to bake in security, and so you're talking about that really needs to be on the privacy side as well, it needs to go hand-in-hand, not be counter to innovation. >> Yes, it is not a zero sum game, it should be a positive sum game in fact, GDPR would call it data protection by design and by default. And so, you have to bake it in, and I think the best way to bake it in is to see this as an opportunity to do better business with your customers, your consumers, your patients, your citizens, your students, and the way to do that is to actually go for a trust mark instead of, I shouldn't say a trust mark, but go for building trusted digital relationships with all those people instead of just saying "Well I'm going to go for compliance" and then say " Well I'm sorry if you didn't feel that action "on my part was correct" >> Well hopefully it's more successful than we've seen on the security side right? Because data breaches are happening constantly, no one is immune and I don't know, we're almost kind of getting immune to it. I mean Yahoo's it was their entire database of however many billions of people, and some will say it's not even when you get caught it's more about how you react, when you do get caught both from a PR perspective, as well as mending faith like the old Tylenol issue back in the day, so, on the privacy side do you expect that to be the same? Are these regulations in such a way where it's relatively easy to implement so we won't have kind of this never ending breach problem on the security side, or is it going to be kind of the same. >> I think I just made a face when you said easy, the word easy okay. >> Not easy but actually doable, 'cause sometimes it feels like some of the security stuff again on the breaches specifically, yeah it seems like it should be doable, but man oh man we just hear over and over again on the headlines that people are getting compromised. >> Yeah people are getting compromised and I think they are sort of getting immune to the stories when it's a security breach. We try to do at my company at Forge Rock we're identities so I have this identity lens that I see everything through, and I think especially in the internet of things which we've talked about in the past there's a recognition that digital identity is a way that you can start to attack security and privacy problems, because if you want to, for example, save off somebody's consent to let information about them flow, you need to have a persistent storage that they did consent, you need to have persistent storage of the information about them, and if they want to withdraw consent which is a thing like GDPR requires you to be able to do, and prove that they're able to do, you need to have a persistent storage of their digital identity. So identity is actually a solution to the problem, and what you want to do is have an identity and access management solution that actually reduces the friction to solving those problems so it's basically a way to have consent life cycle management if you will and have that solution be able to solve your problems of security and privacy. >> And to come at it from the identity point of view versus coming at it from the data point of view. >> That's right, and especially when it comes to internet of things, but not even just internet of things, you're starting to need to authenticate and identity everything; services, applications, piles of data, and smart devices, and people, and keep track of the relationships among them. >> We just like to say people are things too so you can always include the people in the IT conversation. But it is pretty interesting the identity task 'cause we see that more and more, security companies coming at the problem from an identity problem because now you can test the identity against applications, against data, against usage, change what's available, not available to them, versus trying to build that big wall. >> Yes, there's no perimeters anymore. >> Unless you go to China and walk the old great wall. >> Yes you're taking your burner devices with you aren't you? (laughs) >> Yes. >> Good, good to hear >> Yeah but it's a very different way to attack the problem from an identity point of view. >> Yeah, and one of the interesting things actually about PSD2 and this open banking mandate, and I was talking about they want to get digital business to be more attractive, is that they're demanding strong customer authentication, SCA they call it, and so I think we're going to see, I think we talked about passwords last time we met, less reliance. >> Jeff: And I still have them and I still can't remember them. >> Well you know, less reliance on passwords either is the only factor or sometimes a factor, and more sophisticated authentication that has less impact, well less negative impact on your life, and so I'm kind of hopeful that they're getting it, and these things are rolling up faster than GDPR, so I think those are kind of easier. They're aware of the API economy, they get it. They get all the standards that are needed. >> 'Cause the API especially when you get the thing to thing and you got multi steps and everything is depending on the connectivity upstream, you've got some significant issues if you throw a big wrench into there. But it's interesting to see how the two factor authentication is slowly working its way into more and more applications, and using a phone now without the old RSA key on the keychain, what a game changer that is. >> Yeah I think we're getting there. Nice to hear something's improving right? >> There you go. So as you look forward to 2018 what are some of your priorities, what are we going to be talking about a year from now do you think? >> Well I'm working on this really interesting project, this is in the UK, it has to do with Affintech, the UK has a mandate that it's calling the Pensions Dashboard Project, and I think that this has got a great analogy in the US, we have 401ks. They did a study there where they say the average person has 11 jobs over their lifetime and they leave behind some, what they call pension pots, so that would be like our 401ks, and this Pensions Dashboard Project is a way for people to find all of their left behind pension pots, and we talked last year about the technology that I've worked on called user managed access, UMA, which is a way where you can kind of have a standardized version of that Google Docs share button where you're in control of how much you share with somebody else, well they're using UMA to actually manage this pension finder service, so you give access first of all, to yourself, so you can get this aggregated dashboard view of all your pensions, and then you can share, one pension pot, you know one account, or more, with financial advisors selectively, and get advice on how to spend your newly found money. It's pretty awesome and it's an Affintech use case. >> How much unclaimed pension pot money, that must just be. >> In the country, in the UK, apparently it's billions upon billions, so imagine in the US, I mean it's probably a trillion dollars. I'm not sure, but it's a lot. We should do something here, I'm wondering how much money I have left behind. >> All right check your pension pot, that's the message from today's interview. All right Eve, well thanks for taking a few minutes, and again really interesting space and you guys are right at the forefront, so exciting times. >> It's a pleasure. >> All right she's Eve Maylar I'm Jeff Frigg you're watching theCUBE from Data Privacy Day 2018, thanks for watching, catch you next time. (upbeat music)

>> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with the CUBE. We are in downtown San Francisco at the Twitter headquarters for a big event, the Data Privacy Day that's been going on for years and years and years. It's our first visit and we're excited to be here. And our next guest is going to talk about something that is near and dear to all of our hearts. Eve Maler, she's the VP Innovation and Emerging Technology for ForgeRock. Welcome. >> Thank you so much. >> Absolutely. So for people who aren't familiar with ForgeRock, give us a little background on the company. >> Sure. So, of course, the digital journey for every customer and consumer and patient and citizen in the world is so important because trust is important. And so what ForgeRock is about is about creating that seamless digital identity journey throughout cloud, mobile, internet of things, devices, across all of their experiences in a trustworthy and secure way. >> So one of the topics that we had down and getting ready for this was OAuth. >> Yes. >> And as the proliferation of SAS applications continues to grow both within our home life as well as our work life, we have these pesky things called passwords which no one can remember and they force you to change all the time. So along comes OAuth. >> Yes. So OAuth is one of those technologies... I'm kind of a standards wonk. I actually had a hand in creating XML for those people who remember XML. >> Jeff: That's right. >> OAuth took a tact of saying, "Let's get rid of what's called the password anti-pattern. "Let's not give out our passwords to third party services and applications so that we can just give those applications what's called an access token. Instead it's meant just for that application. In fact, Twitter... We're heard at Twitter headquarters. Twitter uses that OAuth technology. And I'm involved in a standard, being a standards wonk, that builds on top of OAuth called user managed access. And it uses this so that we can share access with applications in the same way. And we can share access also with other people using applications. So for example, the same way we hit a share button in Google, Alice hits a share button to share access with a document with Bob. We want to allow every application in the world to be able to do that, not just GoogleDocs, GoogleSheets, and so on. So OAuth is powerful and user managed access is powerful for privacy in the same way. >> Now there's OAuth and I use my Twitter OAuth all the time. Or with Google. >> That's right. >> And then there's these other kind of third party tools which add kind of another layer. >> So you might use like tweetbot is something I like to use on my phone to tweet. >> Jeff: Right, right. >> And so there's... >> Well there's the tweetbot. But then there's these pure, like identity password manager applications which you know you load it into there and then... >> LastPass or something like that. >> Right, right, right. >> One password people use yeah >> To me it's just like wow, that just seems like it's adding another layer. And if oh my gosh, if I forget the LastPass password, I'm really in bad shape. >> You are. >> Not just the one application, but a whole bunch. I mean, how do you see the space kind of evolving to where we got to now? And how is it going to change going forward? It just fascinates me that you still have passwords when our phones have fingerprint. >> TouchID. >> Why can't it just work off my finger? >> More and more, SAS services and applications are actually becoming more sensitive to multifactor authentication, strong authentication, what we at ForgeRock would actually call contextual authentication and that's a great way to go. So they're leveraging things like TouchID, like device fingerprint, for example. Recognizing that the devices kind of represents you and your unique way of using the device. And in that way, we can start to do things like what's called a password list flow. Where it can, most of the time, or all of the time, actually not even use a password. And so, I don't know, I used to be an industry analyst and 75 percent of my conversations with folks like you would be about passwords. And more frequently, I would say now, we're getting into the topic of people are more password savvy and more of the time people are turning on things like multifactor authentication and more of that it knows the context that I'm using my corporate WiFi which is safer. Or I'm using a familiar device. And that means I don't have to use the password as often. So that's contextual authentication. Meaning I don't have to use that insecure password so often. >> Jeff: Right. >> So I think the world has gotten actually a little bit smarter about authentication. I'm hoping. And actually, technologies like OAuth and the things that are based on OAuth like OpenIDConnect which is an identity technology, a modern identity, federated identity technology. And things like user managed access are leveraging the fact that OAuth is getting away from having to use, if it was a password based authentication, not flinging the password around the internet, which is the problem. >> Right, right. Okay so that's good, that's getting better, but now we have this new thing. Internet of things. >> Yes indeed. >> And people are things. But now we've got connected devices, they're not necessarily ones that I purchased, that I authorized, that I even maybe am aware of. >> Like a beacon on a wall, just observing you. >> Like a beacon on a wall and sensors, and the proliferation is just now really starting to run. So from a privacy point of view, how does kind of IOT that I'm not directly involved with compare to IOT with my Alexa compare to applications that I'm actively participating in. How do those lines start to blur? And how does the privacy issues kind of spill over now into managing this wild world of IOT? >> Yeah, there's a couple of threads with the Internet of Things. And so I'm here today at this Data Privacy Day Event to participate on a panel about the IOT tipping point. And there's a couple of threads that are just really important. One is the security of these devices is in large part, a device identity theft problem with this dyn attack. In fact, that was an identity theft problem of devices. We had poorly authenticated devices. We had devices that have identities they have identities, they have identifiers, and they have secrets. And it was a matter of their own passwords being easily taken over. It was account takeovers, essentially for devices, that was the problem. And that's something we have to be aware of. So, you know, just like applications and services can have identities, just like people, we've always known that. It's something our platform can handle. We need to authenticate our devices better and that's something manufacturers have to take responsibility for. >> Jeff: Right. >> And we can see the government agencies starting to crack down on that which is a really good thing. The second thing is there's a saying in the healthcare world for people who are working on patient privacy rights, for example. And the saying is, no data about me without me. So there's got to be a kind of a pressure, you know we see whenever there's a front page news article about the latest password breach. We don't actually see so many password breaches anymore as we see this multifactor authentication come in to play. So that's the industry pressures coming in to play. Where passwords become less important because we have multifactor. We're starting to see consumer pressure say I want to be a part of this. I want you to tell me what you shared. I want more transparency, and I want more control. And that's got to be part of the equation now when it comes to these devices. It's got to be not just more transparent, but what is it you're sharing about me? >> Jeff: Right. >> Last year I actually bought, maybe this is TMI, I always have this habit of sharing too much information, >> That's okay, we're on theCUBE we like >> Being honest here. >> To go places other companies don't go. >> I bought one of those adjustable beds that actually has an air pump that... >> What's your number? Your sleep number. >> It is, it's a Sleep Number bed and it has a feature that connects to an app that tells you how well you slept. You look at the terms and conditions and it says we own your biometric data, we are free to do whatever we want. >> Where did you even find the terms and conditions? >> They're right there on the app, to use the app. >> Oh in the app, in the app. >> You have to say yes. >> So you actually read before just clicking on the box. >> Hey, I'm a privacy pro, I've got to. >> Right, right, right. >> And of course, I saw this, and to use the feature, you have to opt in. >> Right. >> This is the way it is. There's no choice, and they probably got some lawyer... This is the risk management view of privacy. It's no longer tenable to have just a risk management view because the most strategic and the most robust way to see your relationship with your customers is you have to realize there's two sides to the bargain because businesses are commoditized now. There's low switching costs to almost anything. I mean, I bought a bed, but I don't have to have that feature. >> Do you think, do you think they'll break it up? So you want the bed, you're using a FitBit or something else to tell you whether you got a good night's sleep or not. Do you see businesses starting to kind of break up the units of information that they're taking and can they deliver an experience based on a fragmented selection? >> I do believe so. So, user managed access and certain technologies like it, standards like it, there's a standard called consent receipts. They're based on a premise of being able to now deliver convenient control to users. There's even, so there's regulations that are coming like the general data protection regulation in the EU. It's bearing down on pretty much every multinational, every global enterprise that monitors or sells to an EU citizen. That's pretty much every enterprise. >> Jeff: Right, right. >> That demands that individuals get some measure of the ability to withdraw consent in a convenient fashion. So we've got to have consent tech that measures up to the policy that these >> Right. >> organizations have to have. So this is coming whether we sort of like it or not. But we should have a robust and strategic way of exposing to these people the kind of control that they want anyway. >> Jeff: Right. >> They all tell us they want it. So in essence, personal data is becoming a joint asset. We have to conceive of this that way. >> So that's in your... So that's in your sleep app, but what about the traffic cameras and the public facility? >> Yeah. >> I mean, they say in London right you're basically on camera all the time. I don't know if that's fact or not, but clearly there's a lot >> That's true, CCTV, yeah. Of cameras that are tracking your movements. You don't get a chance to opt in or out. >> That is actually true, that's a tough case. >> You don't know. >> The class of... Yeah. The class of beacons. >> And security, right. Obviously, post 9/11 world, that's usually the justification for we want to make sure something bad doesn't happen again. We want to keep track. >> Yeah. >> So how does kind of the government's role in that play? And even in the government, then you have you know all these different agencies, whether it's the traffic agency or even just a traffic camera that maybe KCBS puts up to keep track of you know, it says slow down >> Yeah. >> Between two exits. How does that play into this conversation? >> Yeah, where you don't have an identified individual. And not even an identifiable individual, these are actually terms if you look at GDPR, which I've read closely. It is a tougher case, although I have worked... One of the members of my user managed access working group is one of the sort of experts on UK CCTV stuff. And it is a very big challenge to figure out. And governments do have a special duty of care to figure this out. And so the toughest cases are when you have beacons that just observe passively. Especially because the incentives are such that, I will grant you, the incentives are such that, well how do they go and identify somebody who's hard to identify and then go inform them and be transparent about what they're doing. >> Jeff: Right, right. >> So in those cases, even heuristically identifying somebody is very, very tough. However, there is a case where eye beacons in, say, retail stores do have a very high incentive to identify their consumers and their retail customers. >> Right. >> And in those cases, the incentives flip in the other direction towards transparency and reaching out to the customer. >> Yeah. The tech of these things of someone who I will not name, recently got a drive through red light ticket. >> Yep. >> And the clarity of the images that came in that piece of paper that I saw was unbelievable. >> Yes. >> So I mean, if you're using any kind of monitoring equipment, the ability to identify is pretty much there. >> Now we have cases... So this just happened, actually I'm not going to say, do I say it was to me or to my husband? It was in a non-smart car in a non-smart circumstance where simply a red light camera that takes a picture of an identified car, so you've got a license plate and that binds it to a registered owner of a car. >> Right. >> Now I have a car that's registered in the name of a trust. They didn't get a picture of the driver. They got a picture of the car. So now here we can talk about, let's translate that from a dumb car circumstance, registered to a trust, not to an individual, they sent us what amounted to a parking ticket. Cause they couldn't identify the driver. So now that gives us an opportunity to map that to an IOT circumstance. Because if you've got a smart device. You've got a person, you've got a cloud account. What you need to do is the ability to, in responsible secured fashion, bind a smart device to a person and their cloud account. And the ability to unbind. So now we're back to having an identity centric architecture for security and privacy that knows how to... I'll give you a concrete example, let's say you've got a fleet vehicle in a police department. You assign it to whatever cop on the beat. And at the end of their shift, you assign the car to another cop. What happens on one shift and what happens on another shift is a completely different matter. And it's a smart car, maybe it's a cop who has a uniform with some sort of camera, you know body cam. That's another smart device, and those body cams also get reassigned. So you want whatever was recorded, in the car, on the body cam, with the cop, and with their whatever online account it is, you want the data to go with the cop, only when the cop is using the smart devices that they've been assigned and you want the data for somebody else to go with the somebody else. So in these cases, the binding of identities and the unbinding of identities is critical to the privacy of that police person. >> Jeff: Right, right. >> And to the integrity of the data. So this is why I think of identity centric security and privacy as being so important. And we actually say, at ForgeRock, we say identity relationship management is being so key. >> And whether you use it or not, it is really kind of after the fact of being able to effectively tie the two together. >> You have to look at the relationships in order to know whether it's viable to associate the police person's identity with the car identity. Did something happen to the car on the shift? Did something through the view of the camera on the shift? >> Right, right. And all this is underlaid by trust, which has come up in a number of these interviews today. And unfortunately we're in a situation now if you read all the surveys. And the government particularly, these are kind of the more crazy cases cause businesses can choose to or not to and they've got a relationship with the customer. But on the government side, where there's really no choice, right, they're there. Right now, I think we're at a low point on the trust factor. >> Indeed. >> So how is that, and if you don't trust, then these things are seen as really bad as opposed to if you do trust and then maybe they're just inconvenient or they're not quite worked out all the way. So as this trust changes and fake news and all this other stuff going on right now, how is that impacting the implementation of these technologies? >> Well ask me if I said yes to the terms and conditions. (laughter) Of the sleep app, right. I mean I said yes, I said yes. And I didn't even ask for the app, you know my husband signed up for the free trial. >> Just showed up on my phone. Cause I was in proximity >> I said this one on stage >> to the bed, right? >> at RSA so this is not news. I'm not breaking news here. But you know, consumers want the features, they want convenience, they want value. So it's unreasonable, I believe to simply mount an education campaign and thereby change the world. I do think it's good to have general awareness of what to demand and that's why I say no data about me without me. That's what people should be demanding is to be let in to the loop. Because that gives them more convenience and value. >> Right. >> They want share buttons. I mean, we saw that with the initial introduction of CareKit with Apple. Because that enabled what, people who are involved in user managed access, we call ourselves Umanitarians. So umanitarians like to say, like to call it Alice to Bob sharing, that's the use case. >> Jeff: Okay. >> And it enabled Alice to Dr. Bob sharing. That's a real use case. And IOT kind of made real that use case. When web and mobile and API, I don't think we thought about it so much as a positive use case, although in healthcare it's been a very real thing with EHR. You know you can go into your EHR system and you can see it, you can share with a spouse your allergy record or something, it's there. >> Right, right, right. >> But with IOT, it's a really positive thing. I've talked to folks in my day job about sharing access to a connected car to a remote user. You know, we've seen the experiments with let somebody deliver a package into the trunk of my car, but not get access to driving the car. These are real. That's better than saving >> I've heard that one actually >> Saving a little money by having smart light bulbs is not as good as you've got an Airbnb renter and you want to share limited access to all your stuff while you're away with your renter and then shut down access after you leave, that's an uma use case, actually. And that's good stuff. I could make money. >> Jeff: Right. >> Off of sharing that way. That's convenience and value. >> It's only, I just heard the other day that Airbnb is renting a million rooms a night. >> There you go. >> So not insignificant. >> So once you've have... You have a home that's bristling with smart stuff, you know. That's when it really makes sense to have a share button on all that stuff. It's not just data you're sharing. >> Well Eve, we could go on and on and on. >> Apparently. >> Are you going to be at RSA in a couple of weeks? >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> I'm actually speaking about consent management. >> Alright, well maybe we'll see you there. >> That would be great. >> But I want to thank you for stopping by. >> It's a pleasure. >> And I really enjoyed the conversation. >> Me too, thanks. >> Alright, she's Eve, I'm Jeff, you're watching theCUBE. We'll catch you next time, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(rousing music) >> Hello everyone. Welcome back to "theCUBE's" day one coverage of Cloud Native Security Con 23. This is going to be an exciting panel. I've got three great guests. I'm Lisa Martin, you know our esteemed analysts, John Furrier, and Dave Vellante well. And we're excited to welcome to "theCUBE" for the first time, Yves Sandfort, the CEO of Comdivision Group, who's coming to us from Germany. As you know, Cloud Native Security Con is a global event. Everyone welcome Yves, great to have you in particular. Welcome to "theCUBE." >> Great to be here. >> Thank you for inviting me. >> Yves, tell us a little bit, before we dig into really wanting to understand your perspectives on the event and get Dave and John's feedback as well, tell us a little bit about you. >> So yeah, talking about me, or talking about Comdivision real quick. We are in the business for over 27 years already. We started as a SaaS company, then became more like an architecture and, and Cloud Native company over the last few years. But what's interesting is, and I think that's, that's, that's really interesting when we look at our industry. It hasn't really, the requirements haven't really changed over the years. It's still security. We still have to figure out how we deal with security. We still have to figure out how we deal with compliance and everything else. And I think therefore, it's more and more important that we take these items more seriously. Also, based on the fact that when we look at it, how development and other things happen nowadays, it's, it's, everybody says it's like open source. It's great because everybody can look into the code. We, I think the last few years have shown us enough example that that's not necessarily solving all the issues, but it's also code and development has changed rapidly when we look at the Cloud Native approach, where it's far more about gluing the pieces together, versus the development pieces. When I was actually doing software development 25 years ago, and had to basically build my code because I didn't have that much internet access for it. So it has evolved, but even back then we had to deal with security and everything. >> Right. The focus on security is, is incredibly important, and the focus keeps growing as you mentioned. This is, guys, and I want to get your perspectives on this. We're going to start with John. This is the first time Cloud Native Security Con is its own event being extracted from, and amplified from KubeCon. John, I want to understand from your perspective, break down the event, what you see, what you've heard, and Cloud Native Security in general. What does this mean to companies? What does it mean to customers? Is this a reality? >> Well, I think that's the topic we want to discuss, and I think Yves background, you see the VMware certification, I love that. Because what VMware did with virtualization, was abstract that from server virtualization, kind of really changed the game on things, and you start to see Cloud Native kind of go that next level of how companies will be operating their business, not just digital transformation, as digital transformation goes to completion, it's total business transformation where IT is everywhere. And so you're starting to see the trends where, "Okay, that's happening." Now you're starting to see, that's Cloud Native Con, or KubeCon, AWS re:Invent, or whatever show, or whatever way you want to look at it. But in, in the past decade, past five years, security has always been front and center as almost a separate thing, and, in and of itself, but the same thing. So you're starting to see the breakout of security conversations around how to make things work. So a lot of operational conversations around what used to be DevOps makes infrastructure as code, and that was great, that fueled that. Then DevSecOps came. So the Cloud Native next level, is more application development at scale, developers driving the standards with developer first thinking, shifting left, I get all that. But down in the lower ends of the stack, you got real operational issues. DNS we've heard in the keynote, we heard about the Colonel, the Lennox Colonel. Things that need to be managed and taken care of at a security level. These are like, seem like in the weeds, but you're starting to see that happen. And the other thing that I think's real about Cloud Native Security Con that's going to be interesting to watch, is Amazon has pretty much canceled all their re:Invent like shows except for two; Re:Invent, which is their annual conference, and Re:Inforce, which is dedicated to securities. So Cloud Native, Linux, the Linux Foundation has now breaking out Cloud Native Con and KubeCon, and now Cloud Native Security Con. They can't call it KubeCon because it's not Kubernetes, but it's like security focus. I think this is the beginning of starting to see this new developer driving, developers driving the standards, and it has it implications, what used to be called IT ops, and that's like the VMwares of the world. You saw all the stuff that was not at developer focus, but more ops, becoming much more in the application. So I think, I think it's real. The question is where does it go? How fast does it develop? So to me, I think it's a real trend, and it's worthy of a breakout, but it's not yet clear of where the landing zone is for people to start doing it, how they get started, what are the best practices. Machine learning's going to be a big part of this. So to me it's totally cool, but I'm not yet seeing the beachhead. So that's kind of my take. >> Dave, our inventor and host of breaking analysis, what's your take? >> So when you, I think when you zoom out, there's some, there's a big macro change that's been going on. I think when you look back, let's say 10, 12 years ago, the, the need for speed far trumped the, the, the security aspect, the governance, the data privacy. It was like, "Yeah, the risks, they're not that great compared to our opportunity." That has completely changed because the risks are now so much higher. And so what's happening, I think there's a, there's a major effort amongst CIOs and CISOs to try to make security not a blocker because it use to be, it still is. "Okay, I got this great initiative." Eh, give it to the SecOps pros, and let them take it for a while before we can go to market. And so a huge challenge now is to simplify, automate, AI comes in, the whole supply chain security, so the, so the companies can not be facing so much friction. And that is non-trivial. I don't think we're anywhere close there, but I think the goal is by, within the next several years, we're going to be in a position, that security, we heard today, is, wasn't designed in to the initial internet protocols. It was bolted on. And so increasingly, the fundamental architecture of the internet, the Cloud, et cetera, is, is seeing designed in security, and, and that is an imperative, or else business is going to come to a grinding halt. >> Right. It's no longer, the bolt no longer works. Yves, what's your perspective on Cloud Native Security, where it stands today? What's in it for customers, whether we're talking about banks, or hospitals, or retailers, what do you think? >> I think when we, when we look at security in the, in the modern world, is we need to as, as Dave mentioned, we need to rethink how we apply it. Very often, security in the past has been always bolted on in the end. If we continue to do that, it'll become more and more difficult, because as companies evolve, and as companies want to bring products and software to market in a much faster and faster way, it's getting more and more difficult if we bolt on the security process at the end. It's like, developers build something and then someone checks security. That's not going to work any longer. Especially if we also consider now the changes in the industry. We had Stack Overflow over the last 10 years. If I would've had Stack Overflow 15, 20, what, 25 years ago when I was a developer, it would've changed a hell lot. Looking at it now, and looking at it what we had in the last few weeks, it's like where nearly all of my team members say is like finally I don't need any script kiddies anymore because I can't go to (indistinct) who writes the code for me. Which is on one end great, because it enables us to solve certain problems in a much higher pace. But the challenge with that is, if the people who just copy and past that code, don't understand the implications of that code, we have a much higher risk continuously. And what people thought was, is challenging with Stack Overflow. Imagine that something in one of these AI engines, is actually going ballistic, and it creates holes in nearly every one of these applications. And trust me, there will be enough developers who are going to use these tools to develop codes, the same as students in university are going to take this to write their essays and everything else. And so it's really important that every developer team basically has a security person within their team, and not a security at the end. So we build something, we check it, go through QA, and then it goes to security. Security needs to be at the forefront. And I think that's where we see Cloud Native Security Con, where we see AWS. I saw it during re:Invent already where they said is like, we have reinforced next year. I think this becomes more and more of a topic, and I think companies, as much as it is become a norm that you have a firewall and everything else, it needs to become a norm that when you are doing software development, and every development team needs to have a security person on that needs to be trained. >> I love that chat comment Dave, 'cause you and I were talking about this. And I think that is going to be the issue. Do we need security chat for the chat bot? And there's like a, like a recursive model there. The biases are built in. I think, and I think our interview with the Palo Alto Network's co-founder, Dave, when he talked about zero trust as a structured way to start things, but he was referencing that with Cloud, there's a chance to rethink or do a do-over in security. So, I think this is kind of to me, where this is all going. And I think you asked Pat Gelsinger what, year 2013, 2014, can, is security a do over? I think we're in that do over time. >> He said yes. >> He said yes. (laughing) He was right. But yeah, eight years later... But this is, how do you, zero trust gives you some structure, but how do you organize and redo security? Because to me, I think that's what's happening here. >> And John you heard, Zuk at Palo Alto Network said, "Yeah, the, the words security and architecture, they don't go together historically." And so it is a total, total retake. >> Well is that because there's too many tools out there and- >> Yeah. For sure. >> Yeah, well, first of all, a lot of hardware. And then yeah, a lot of tools. You even see IIOT and industry 40, you see IOT security coming up as another stove pipe, and that's not the right approach. And, and so- >> Well let me, let me ask you a question Dave, and Yves, if you don't mind. 'Cause I was just riffing on this yesterday about this. In the ML space, you're seeing the ML models, you're seeing proprietary models versus open source. Is security going to go down this proprietary security methods and open source? Because that's interesting, because the CNCF is run by the the Linux Foundation. So you can almost maybe see a model where there's more proprietary security methods than open source. Or is it, is that a non-issue? >> I would, I would, let me, if I, if I jump in here first, I think the last, especially last five or 10 years have clearly shown the, the whole and, and I invested early on in the, in the end 90s in several open source startups in the Bay area. So, I'm well behind the whole open source idea and, and mid (indistinct) and others back then several times. But the point is, I think what we have seen is open source is not in general, more secure or less secure, because code is too complex nowadays. You have millions of lines of code, and it's not that either one way or the other is going to solve it. The ways I think we are going to look at it is more is what's the role to market, because only because something is open source doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be available for everyone. And the same for proprietary source from that perspective, even though everybody mixes licensing and payments and all that all the time, but it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it. But I think as we are going through it, and when we also look at the industry, security industry over the last 10 plus years has been primarily hardware focused. And a lot of these vendors have done a good business out of selling hardware boxes, putting software on top of it. Whereas in reality, those were still X86 standard boxes in the end. So it was not that we had specific security ethics or anything like that in there anymore. And so overall, the question of the market is going to change. And as we are looking into Cloud Native, think about someone like an AWS, do you really envision them to have a hardware box of every supplier in their data center, and that in every availability zone in every region? Same for Microsoft, same for Google, etc? So we need to have new ways on how we can apply security. And that applies both on the backend services, but also on the front end side. >> And if I, and if I could chime in, I think the, the good, I think the answer is, is, is no and yes. And what I mean by that is if you take, antivirus and known malware, I mean pretty much anybody today can, can solve that problem, it's the unknown malware. So I think the yes part of the answer is yes, it's, it's going to be proprietary, but in the sense we're going to use open source tooling, and then apply that in a proprietary way with, with specific algorithms and unique architectures that are going to solve problems. For example, XDR with, with unknown malware. So, and that's the, that's the hard part. As somebody said, I think this morning at the keynote, it's, it's all the stuff that, that the SecOps team couldn't find. That's the really hard part. >> (laughs) Well the question will be will, is the new IP, the ability to feed ChatGPT some magical spelled insertion query string that does the job, that's unique, that might be the new IP, the the question to ask. >> Well, that's what the hackers are going to do. And I, they're on offense. (John laughs) And the offense knows what play is coming. So, they're going to start. >> So guys, let's take this conversation up a level. I want to get your perspectives on what's in this for me as a customer? We know security is a board level conversation. We talk about this all the time. We also know that they're based on, I think David, was the conversations that you and I had, with Palo Alto Networks at Ignite in December. There's a, there's a lack of alignment between the executives and the board from a security perspective. When we talk about Cloud Native Security, we all talked about the value in that, what's in it for customers? I want to get your perspectives on should this be a board level conversation, and if so, how do you advise organizations, whether it is a hospital, or a bank, or an organization that is really affected by things like ransomware? How should they be thinking about this from an organizational perspective? >> Well, I'll start first, because we had this conversation during our Super Cloud event last month, and this comes up a lot. And this is, the CEO board level. Yes it is a board level conversation for security, as is application development as in terms of transforming their business to be competitive, not to be on the wrong side of history with this wave coming. So I think that's more of a management. But the issue is, they tell their people, "Go do it." And they're like, 'cause they get sold on the idea of, "Hey, won't you transform your business, and everything's going to be data driven, and machine learning's going to power your apps, get new customers, be profitable." "Oh, sign me up for that." When you have to implement this, it's really hard. And I think the core issue is, where are companies in their life cycle of the ability to execute and architect this thing properly as Dave said, Nick Zuk said, "You can't have architecture and security, you need platforms." So, I think the re-platforming, and the re-factoring of business is a big factor, and that's got to get down into the, the organizational shifts and the people to do it. So are there skills? Do I do a managed service? How do I architect it? Are there more services? Are there developers doing applications that are going to be more agile? So, this is not an easy thing. And to move a business from IT operations that is proven, to be positioned for this enablement, is just really difficult. And it's expensive. And if you screw it up, you could be, could be on the wrong side of things. So, to me, that's the big issue is, you sell the dream and then you got to implement it. And that's really difficult. >> Yves, give us your perspective on, based on John's comments, how do organizations shift so dramatically? There's a cultural element there as well, but there's also organizations that are, have competitive competitors in the rear view mirror, and there's time to waste. What are your thoughts on that? >> I think that's exactly the point. It's like, as an organization, you need to take the decision between the time, the risk, and all the other elements we have into this game. Because you can try to achieve 100% security, but that's exactly the same as trying to, to protect gold or anything else 100%. It's most likely not going to be from a risk perspective anyway sensible. And that's the same from a corporational perspective. When you look at building new internet services, or IOT services, or any kind of new shopping experience or whatever else, you need to balance out between the risks and the advantages out of it. And you also need to be accepting that you potentially on the way make mistakes, but then it's more important than ever that you are able to quickly fix any mistakes, and to adjust to anything what's happening in the market. Because as we are building all these new Cloud Native applications, and build up all these skill sets, one of the big scenarios is we are far more depending on individual building blocks. These building blocks come out of open source communities, which have a much different way. When we look back in software development, back then we had application servers from Oracle, Web Logic, whatsoever, they had a release cycles of every three to six months. As now we have to deal with open source, where sometimes release cycles are on a four week schedule, in between security patches. So you need to be much faster in adopting that, checking that, implementing that, getting things to work. So there is a security stretch from that perspective. There is a speech stretch on the other thing companies have to deal with, and on the other side it's always a measurement between the risk, and the security you can afford. Because reality is, you will not be 100% protected no matter what you do. So, you need to balance out what you as an organization can actually build on. But I think, coming back also to the point, it's on the bot level nowadays. It's like nearly every discussion we have with companies nowadays as they move into the Cloud, especially also here in Europe where for the last five years, it was always, it's like "It's data privacy." Data privacy is no longer, I mean, yes, for certain people, it's still the point, but for many more people it's like, "How protected is my data?" "What do we do in case of ransomware attack?" "What do we do in case of a denial of service?" All of these things become more vulnerable, where in the past you were discussing these things with a becking page, or, or like a stock exchange. They were, it's like, "What the hell is going to happen if we have a denial of service?" Now all of the sudden, this now affects nearly everyone in their storefronts and everything else, because everything is depending on it. >> Yeah, I think you're right on. You think about how cultural change occurs, it's bottom ups or, bottom up, top down or middle out. And what, what's happened with security is the people in the security team cared about it, they were the, everybody said, "Oh, it's their problem." And then it just did an end run to the board, kind of mid, early last decade. And then the board sort of pushed that down. And the line of business is realizing, "Holy cow. My business, my EBIT can be dramatically affected by this, so I care." Now it's this whole house, cultural team sport. I know it's sort of a, a cliche, but it, it's true. Everybody actually is beginning to care about security because the risks are now so high, and it's going to affect not only the bottom line of the company, the bottom line of the business, their job, it's, it's, it's virtually everywhere. It's a huge cultural shift that we're seeing. >> And that's a big challenge for organizations in any industry. And Yves, you talked about ransomware service. Every industry across the globe is vulnerable to this. But how can, maybe John, we'll start with you. How can Cloud Native Security help organizations if they're able to embrace it, operationally, culturally, dial down some of the vulnerabilities that just seem to keep growing? >> Well, I mean that's the big question. The breaches are, are critical. The governances also could be a way that anchors down growth. So I think the balance between the governance compliance piece of it is key, but making the developers faster and more productive is the key to me. And I think having the security paradigm where they're not blockers, as Dave said, is critical. So I love the whole shift left, but now that we have more data focused initiatives around how that, you can use data to understand the security issues, I think data and security are together, and I think there's a going to be a data operating system model emerging, where data and security will be almost one thing. And that will be set up by the security teams, and the data teams together. And that will feed guardrails into the developer environment. So the developer should feel no pain at all in doing this. So I think the best practice will end up being what we're seeing with supply chain, security, with making sure code's verified. And you're going to see the container, security side completely address has been, and KubeCon, we just, I asked Scott Johnson, the CEO of Docker, and I asked him directly, "Are you guys all tight on container security?" He said, yes, but other people are suggesting that's not true. There's a lot of issues with the container security. So, there's all kinds of areas where there's holes. So Cloud Native is cool on one hand, and very relevant, but if it's not shored up, it's going to be a problem. But I, so I think that's where the action will be, at the developer pipeline, in the containers, and the data. So, that will be very relevant, and if companies nail that, they'll be faster, they'll have better apps, and that'll be the differentiator. And again, if they don't on this next wave, they're going to be driftwood. >> Dave, how do they prevent becoming driftwood? >> Well, I think Cloud has had a huge impact. And a Cloud's by no means a panacea, but let's face it, it's dramatically improved a lot of companies security posture. Now there's still that shared responsibility. Even though an S3 bucket is encrypted, it's still your responsibility to make sure that it doesn't get decrypted by somebody who has access to it. So there are things like that, but to Yve's earlier point, that can be, that's done through software now, it's done through best practices. Those best practices can be shared. So the way you, you don't become driftwood, is you start to, you step back, rethink that security architecture as we were talking about earlier, take advantage of the Cloud, take advantage of Cloud Native, and all the, the rapid pace of innovation that's occurring there, and you don't use, it's called before, The audit is the last line of defense. That's no longer a check box item. "Oh yeah, we're in compliance." It's, this is a business imperative, and because we're going to reduce our expected loss and reduce our business risk. That's part of the business case today. >> Yeah. >> It's a huge, critically important part of the business case. Yves, question for you. If you're in an elevator with a CEO, a CFO, and a CISO, and they're talking about security and Cloud Native Security, what's your value proposition to them on a, on a say a 32nd elevator ride? >> Difficult story. I think at the moment, the most important part is, we need to get people to work together, and we need to train people to work more much better together. I think that's the overall most important part for all of these solutions, because in the end, security is always a person issue. If, we can have the best tools in the industry, as long as we don't get all of these teams to work together, then we have a problem. If the security team is always seen as the end of the solution to fix everything, that's not going to work because they always are the bad guys in the game. And so we need to bring the teams together. And once we have the teams work together, I think we have a far better track on, on maintaining security. >> John and Dave, I want to get your perspectives on what Yves just said. In all the experience that the two of you have as industry analysts here on "theCUBE," Wikibon, Siliconangle Media. How do you advise organizations to get those teams together? As Eve said, that alignment is critical, but John, we'll start with you, then Dave go to you. What's your advice for organizations that need to align those teams and really don't have a lot of time to wait to do it? >> (chuckling) That's a great question. I think, I think that's everyone pays hundreds of thousands of millions of dollars to get that advice from these consultants, organizations out there doing the transformations. But I think it comes down to personnel and commitment. I think if there's a C-level commitment to the effort, you'll see the institutional structure change. So you can see really getting behind it with their, with their wallet and their, and their support of either getting more personnel to support and assist, or manage services, or giving the power to the teams to execute and doing it in a way that, that's, that's well known and best practices. Start small, build out the pilots, build the platform, and then start getting it right. And I think that's the key. Not the magic wand, the old model of rolling out stuff in, in six month cycles. It's really, get the proof points, double down and change the culture, but also execute and have real metrics. And changing the architecture, like having more penetration tests as a service. Doing pen tests is like a joke now. So that doesn't make any sense. You got to have that built in almost every day, and every minute. So, these kinds of new techniques have to be implemented and have to be tried. So that's why these communities are growing. That's why I like what open source has been doing, and I like the open source as the place to have these conversations, because that's where the action will be for new stuff. And I think people will implement open source like they did before, but with different ways, better testing, better supply chain on the software side, verifying code. So, I see open source actually getting a tailwind from this, not a headwind. So, I'm bullish on the open source piece here on, on all levels, machine learning- >> Lisa, my answer is intramural sports. And it's 'cause I think it's cultural. And what I mean by that, is you take your your best and brightest security, and this is what frankly, a lot of CISOs do, an examples is Lena Smart, MongoDB. Take your best and brightest security pros, make them captains of the intramural teams, and pair them up with pods of individuals across the organization, which is most people who don't know anything about security, and put them together, so that they can, they, so that the folks that understand security can, can realize how little people know, what, what, what, how, what the worst practices that are out there in the reverse, how they can cross pollinate. And they do that on a regular basis, I know at Mongo and other companies. And that kind of cultural assimilation is a starting point for how you get security awareness up to your question around making it a team sport. >> Absolutely critical. Yves, I want to kind of wrap things with you. We've got a couple of minutes left. When you're really looking at the Cloud Native community, the growth of it, we talked about earlier in the program, Cloud Native Security Con being now extracted and elevated out of KubeCon, what are your thoughts on the groundswell that this community is generating around Cloud Native Security, the benefits that organizations will achieve from it? >> I think overall, when we have these securities conferences, or these security arms a bit spread out and separated out of the main conference, it helps to a certain degree, because especially in the security space, when you look at at other like black hat or white hat conferences and things like that in the past, although they were not focused on Cloud Native, a lot of these security folks didn't feel well taken care of in any of the other conferences because they were always these, it's like they are always blocking us, they're always making us problems, and all these kinds of things. Now that we really take the Cloud Native piece and the security piece together, or like AWS does it with re:Inforce, I think we will see more and more that people understand is that security is a permanent topic we need to cover, but we need to bring different people together, because security also has compliance and a lot of other components in there. So we will see at these conferences moving forward, also a different audience. It's not going to be only the Cloud Native developers. And if I see some of these security audiences, I can't really imagine them to really be at KubeCon because there is too much other things going on. And you couldn't really see much of that at re:Invent because re:Invent by itself has become a complete monster of a conference. It covers too many topics. And so having this very, very important security piece separated, also gives the opportunity, I think, that we can bring in the security people, but also have the type of board level discussions potentially, between the leaders of the industry, to also discuss on how we can evolve, how we can make things better, and how, how we can actually, yeah, evolve our industry for it. Because let's face it, that threat is not going to go away. It's, it's a business. And one of the last security conferences I was on, on the ransomware part, it was one of the topics someone said is like, "Look, currently on average, it takes a hacker group roughly around they said 15 to 20 K to break into a company, and they on average make 100K. It's a business, let's face it. And it's a business we don't like. And ethically, it's no discussion that this is not good, but that's something which is happening. People are making money with it. And as long as that's going to go on, and we have enough countries where these people can hide, it's going to stay and survive. And so, with that being said, it's important for us to really build an industry around this. But I also think it's good that we have separate conferences. In the past we had more the RSA conference, which tried to cover all of these areas. But that is not really fitting Cloud Native and everything else. So I think it's good that we have these new opportunities, the Cloud Native one, but also what AWS brings up for someone. >> Yves, you just nailed it. It just comes down to simple math. It's a fraction. Revenue over cost. And if you could increase the hacker's cost, increase the denominator, their ROI will go down. And that is the game. >> Great point, Dave. What I'm hearing guys, and we can talk about technology for days and days. I know all of you. But there's, there's a big component that, that the elevation of Cloud Native Security, on its own as standalone is critical, as is the people component. You guys all talked about that. We talked about the cultural change necessary for that. Hopefully what we're seeing with Cloud Native Security Con 23, this first event is going to give us more insight over the next couple of days, and the next months or so, as to how this elevation, and how the people can come together to really help organizations from a math perspective as, as Dave talked about, really dial down the risks there, understand more of the vulnerabilities so that ransomware as a service is not as lucrative as it is today. Guys, so much appreciate your time, really breaking down Cloud Native Security, the value in it from different perspectives, and what your thoughts are on where it's going. Thanks so much for your time. >> All right. Thanks. >> Thanks, Lisa. >> Thank you. >> Thanks, Yves. >> All right. For my guests, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE's day one coverage of Cloud Native Security Con 23. Thanks for watching. (rousing music)

(techno music intro) >> Welcome back to theCube's coverage of SuperComputing Conference 2022. We are here at day three covering the amazing events that are occurring here. I'm Dave Nicholson, with my co-host Paul Gillin. How's it goin', Paul? >> Fine, Dave. Winding down here, but still plenty of action. >> Interesting stuff. We got a full day of coverage, and we're having really, really interesting conversations. We sort of wrapped things up at Supercomputing 22 here in Dallas. I've got two very special guests with me, Scott from Intel and David from Dell, to talk about yeah supercomputing, but guess what? We've got some really cool stuff coming up after this whole thing wraps. So not all of the holiday gifts have been unwrapped yet, kids. Welcome gentlemen. >> Thanks so much for having us. >> Thanks for having us. >> So, let's start with you, David. First of all, explain the relationship in general between Dell and Intel. >> Sure, so obviously Intel's been an outstanding partner. We built some great solutions over the years. I think the market reflects that. Our customers tell us that. The feedback's strong. The products you see out here this week at Supercompute, you know, put that on display for everybody to see. And then as we think about AI in machine learning, there's so many different directions we need to go to help our customers deliver AI outcomes. Right, so we recognize that AI has kind of spread outside of just the confines of everything we've seen here this week. And now we've got really accessible AI use cases that we can explain to friends and family. We can talk about going into retail environments and how AI is being used to track inventory, to monitor traffic, et cetera. But really what that means to us as a bunch of hardware folks is we have to deliver the right platforms and the right designs for a variety of environments, both inside and outside the data center. And so if you look at our portfolio, we have some great products here this week, but we also have other platforms, like the XR4000, our shortest rack server ever that's designed to go into Edge environments, but is also built for those Edge AI use cases that supports GPUs. It supports AI on the CPU as well. And so there's a lot of really compelling platforms that we're starting to talk about, have already been talking about, and it's going to really enable our customers to deliver AI in a variety of ways. >> You mentioned AI on the CPU. Maybe this is a question for Scott. What does that mean, AI on the CPU? >> Well, as David was talking about, we're just seeing this explosion of different use cases. And some of those on the Edge, some of them in the Cloud, some of them on Prem. But within those individual deployments, there's often different ways that you can do AI, whether that's training or inference. And what we're seeing is a lot of times the memory locality matters quite a bit. You don't want to have to pay necessarily a cost going across the PCI express bus, especially with some of our newer products like the CPU Max series, where you can have a huge about of high bandwidth memory just sitting right on the CPU. Things that traditionally would have been accelerator only, can now live on a CPU, and that includes both on the inference side. We're seeing some really great things with images, where you might have a giant medical image that you need to be able to do extremely high resolution inference on or even text, where you might have a huge corpus of extremely sparse text that you need to be able to randomly sample very efficiently. >> So how are these needs influencing the evolution of Intel CPU architectures? >> So, we're talking to our customers. We're talking to our partners. This presents both an opportunity, but also a challenge with all of these different places that you can put these great products, as well as applications. And so we're very thoughtfully trying to go to the market, see where their needs are, and then meet those needs. This industry obviously has a lot of great players in it, and it's no longer the case that if you build it, they will come. So what we're doing is we're finding where are those choke points, how can we have that biggest difference? Sometimes there's generational leaps, and I know David can speak to this, can be huge from one system to the next just because everything's accelerated on the software side, the hardware side, and the platforms themselves. >> That's right, and we're really excited about that leap. If you take what Scott just described, we've been writing white papers, our team with Scott's team, we've been talking about those types of use cases using doing large image analysis and leveraging system memory, leveraging the CPU to do that, we've been talking about that for several generations now. Right, going back to Cascade Lake, going back to what we would call 14th generation power Edge. And so now as we prepare and continue to unveil, kind of we're in launch season, right, you and I were talking about how we're in launch season. As we continue to unveil and launch more products, the performance improvements are just going to be outstanding and we'll continue that evolution that Scott described. >> Yeah, I'd like to applaud Dell just for a moment for its restraint. Because I know you could've come in and taken all of the space in the convention center to show everything that you do. >> Would have loved to. >> In the HPC space. Now, worst kept secrets on earth at this point. Vying for number one place is the fact that there is a new Mission Impossible movie coming. And there's also new stuff coming from Intel. I know, I think allegedly we're getting close. What can you share with us on that front? And I appreciate it if you can't share a ton of specifics, but where are we going? David just alluded to it. >> Yeah, as David talked about, we've been working on some of these things for many years. And it's just, this momentum is continuing to build, both in respect to some of our hardware investments. We've unveiled some things both here, both on the CPU side and the accelerator side, but also on the software side. OneAPI is gathering more and more traction and the ecosystem is continuing to blossom. Some of our AI and HPC workloads, and the combination thereof, are becoming more and more viable, as well as displacing traditional approaches to some of these problems. And it's this type of thing where it's not linear. It all builds on itself. And we've seen some of these investments that we've made for a better half of a decade starting to bear fruit, but that's, it's not just a one time thing. It's just going to continue to roll out, and we're going to be seeing more and more of this. >> So I want to follow up on something that you mentioned. I don't know if you've ever heard that the Charlie Brown saying that sometimes the most discouraging thing can be to have immense potential. Because between Dell and Intel, you offer so many different versions of things from a fit for function perspective. As a practical matter, how do you work with customers, and maybe this is a question for you, David. How do you work with customers to figure out what the right fit is? >> I'll give you a great example. Just this week, customer conversations, and we can put it in terms of kilowatts to rack, right. How many kilowatts are you delivering at a rack level inside your data center? I've had an answer anywhere from five all the way up to 90. There's some that have been a bit higher that probably don't want to talk about those cases, kind of customers we're meeting with very privately. But the range is really, really large, right, and there's a variety of environments. Customers might be ready for liquid today. They may not be ready for it. They may want to maximize air cooling. Those are the conversations, and then of course it all maps back to the workloads they wish to enable. AI is an extremely overloaded term. We don't have enough time to talk about all the different things that tuck under that umbrella, but the workloads and the outcomes they wish to enable, we have the right solutions. And then we take it a step further by considering where they are today, where they need to go. And I just love that five to 90 example of not every customer has an identical cookie cutter environment, so we've got to have the right platforms, the right solutions, for the right workloads, for the right environments. >> So, I like to dive in on this power issue, to give people who are watching an idea. Because we say five kilowatts, 90 kilowatts, people are like, oh wow, hmm, what does that mean? 90 kilowatts is more than 100 horse power if you want to translate it over. It's a massive amount of power, so if you think of EV terms. You know, five kilowatts is about a hairdryer's around a kilowatt, 1,000 watts, right. But the point is, 90 kilowatts in a rack, that's insane. That's absolutely insane. The heat that that generates has got to be insane, and so it's important. >> Several houses in the size of a closet. >> Exactly, exactly. Yeah, in a rack I explain to people, you know, it's like a refrigerator. But, so in the arena of thermals, I mean is that something during the development of next gen architectures, is that something that's been taken into consideration? Or is it just a race to die size? >> Well, you definitely have to take thermals into account, as well as just the power of consumption themselves. I mean, people are looking at their total cost of ownership. They're looking at sustainability. And at the end of the day, they need to solve a problem. There's many paths up that mountain, and it's about choosing that right path. We've talked about this before, having extremely thoughtful partners, we're just not going to common-torily try every single solution. We're going to try to find the ones that fit that right mold for that customer. And we're seeing more and more people, excuse me, care about this, more and more people wanting to say, how do I do this in the most sustainable way? How do I do this in the most reliable way, given maybe different fluctuations in their power consumption or their power pricing? We're developing more software tools and obviously partnering with great partners to make sure we do this in the most thoughtful way possible. >> Intel put a lot of, made a big investment by buying Habana Labs for its acceleration technology. They're based in Israel. You're based on the west coast. How are you coordinating with them? How will the Habana technology work its way into more mainstream Intel products? And how would Dell integrate those into your servers? >> Good question. I guess I can kick this off. So Habana is part of the Intel family now. They've been integrated in. It's been a great journey with them, as some of their products have launched on AWS, and they've had some very good wins on MLPerf and things like that. I think it's about finding the right tool for the job, right. Not every problem is a nail, so you need more than just a hammer. And so we have the Xeon series, which is incredibly flexible, can do so many different things. It's what we've come to know and love. On the other end of the spectrum, we obviously have some of these more deep learning focused accelerators. And if that's your problem, then you can solve that problem in incredibly efficient ways. The accelerators themselves are somewhere in the middle, so you get that kind of Goldilocks zone of flexibility and power. And depending on your use case, depending on what you know your workloads are going to be day in and day out, one of these solutions might work better for you. A combination might work better for you. Hybrid compute starts to become really interesting. Maybe you have something that you need 24/7, but then you only need a burst to certain things. There's a lot of different options out there. >> The portfolio approach. >> Exactly. >> And then what I love about the work that Scott's team is doing, customers have told us this week in our meetings, they do not want to spend developer's time porting code from one stack to the next. They want that flexibility of choice. Everyone does. We want it in our lives, in our every day lives. They need that flexibility of choice, but they also, there's an opportunity cost when their developers have to choose to port some code over from one stack to another or spend time improving algorithms and doing things that actually generate, you know, meaningful outcomes for their business or their research. And so if they are, you know, desperately searching I would say for that solution and for help in that area, and that's what we're working to enable soon. >> And this is what I love about oneAPI, our software stack, it's open first, heterogeneous first. You can take SYCL code, it can run on competitor's hardware. It can run on Intel hardware. It's one of these things that you have to believe long term, the future is open. Wall gardens, the walls eventually crumble. And we're just trying to continue to invest in that ecosystem to make sure that the in-developer at the end of the day really gets what they need to do, which is solving their business problem, not tinkering with our drivers. >> Yeah, I actually saw an interesting announcement that I hadn't been tracking. I hadn't been tracking this area. Chiplets, and the idea of an open standard where competitors of Intel from a silicone perspective can have their chips integrated via a universal standard. And basically you had the top three silicone vendors saying, yeah, absolutely, let's work together. Cats and dogs. >> Exactly, but at the end of the day, it's whatever menagerie solves the problem. >> Right, right, exactly. And of course Dell can solve it from any angle. >> Yeah, we need strong partners to build the platforms to actually do it. At the end of the day, silicone without software is just sand. Sand with silicone is poorly written prose. But without an actual platform to put it on, it's nothing, it's a box that sits in the corner. >> David, you mentioned that 90% of power age servers now support GPUs. So how is this high-performing, the growth of high performance computing, the demand, influencing the evolution of your server architecture? >> Great question, a couple of ways. You know, I would say 90% of our platforms support GPUs. 100% of our platforms support AI use cases. And it goes back to the CPU compute stack. As we look at how we deliver different form factors for customers, we go back to that range, I said that power range this week of how do we enable the right air coolant solutions? How do we deliver the right liquid cooling solutions, so that wherever the customer is in their environment, and whatever footprint they have, we're ready to meet it? That's something you'll see as we go into kind of the second half of launch season and continue rolling out products. You're going to see some very compelling solutions, not just in air cooling, but liquid cooling as well. >> You want to be more specific? >> We can't unveil everything at Supercompute. We have a lot of great stuff coming up here in the next few months, so. >> It's kind of like being at a great restaurant when they offer you dessert, and you're like yeah, dessert would be great, but I just can't take anymore. >> It's a multi course meal. >> At this point. Well, as we wrap, I've got one more question for each of you. Same question for each of you. When you think about high performance computing, super computing, all of the things that you're doing in your partnership, driving artificial intelligence, at that tip of the spear, what kind of insights are you looking forward to us being able to gain from this technology? In other words, what cool thing, what do you think is cool out there from an AI perspective? What problem do you think we can solve in the near future? What problems would you like to solve? What gets you out of bed in the morning? Cause it's not the little, it's not the bits and the bobs and the speeds and the feats, it's what we're going to do with them, so what do you think, David? >> I'll give you an example. And I think, I saw some of my colleagues talk about this earlier in the week, but for me what we could do in the past two years to unable our customers in a quarantine pandemic environment, we were delivering platforms and solutions to help them do their jobs, help them carry on in their lives. And that's just one example, and if I were to map that forward, it's about enabling that human progress. And it's, you know, you ask a 20 year version of me 20 years ago, you know, if you could imagine some of these things, I don't know what kind of answer you would get. And so mapping forward next decade, next two decades, I can go back to that example of hey, we did great things in the past couple of years to enable our customers. Just imagine what we're going to be able to do going forward to enable that human progress. You know, there's great use cases, there's great image analysis. We talked about some. The images that Scott was referring to had to do with taking CAT scan images and being able to scan them for tumors and other things in the healthcare industry. That is stuff that feels good when you get out of bed in the morning, to know that you're enabling that type of progress. >> Scott, quick thoughts? >> Yeah, and I'll echo that. It's not one specific use case, but it's really this wave front of all of these use cases, from the very micro of developing the next drug to finding the next battery technology, all the way up to the macro of trying to have an impact on climate change or even the origins of the universe itself. All of these fields are seeing these massive gains, both from the software, the hardware, the platforms that we're bringing to bear to these problems. And at the end of the day, humanity is going to be fundamentally transformed by the computation that we're launching and working on today. >> Fantastic, fantastic. Thank you, gentlemen. You heard it hear first, Intel and Dell just committed to solving the secrets of the universe by New Years Eve 2023. >> Well, next Supercompute, let's give us a little time. >> The next Supercompute Convention. >> Yeah, next year. >> Yeah, SC 2023, we'll come back and see what problems have been solved. You heard it hear first on theCube, folks. By SC 23, Dell and Intel are going to reveal the secrets of the universe. From here, at SC 22, I'd like to thank you for joining our conversation. I'm Dave Nicholson, with my co-host Paul Gillin. Stay tuned to theCube's coverage of Supercomputing Conference 22. We'll be back after a short break. (techno music)

>>Hey, everyone. Welcome back to San Francisco. Lisa Martin and John furrier live on the floor at VMware Explorer, 2022. This is our third day of wall to wall coverage on the cube. But you know that cuz you've been here the whole time. We're pleased to welcome up. First timer to the cubes we saw is here. The CEO and founder of ZDA. Saed welcome to the program. >>Thank you for having me >>Talk to me a little bit about what ZDA does in edge. >>Sure. So ZDA is a company purely focused in edge computing. I started a company about five years ago, go after edge. So what we do is we help customers with orchestrating their edge, helping them to deploy secure monitor application services and devices at the edge. >>What's the business model for you guys. We get that out there. So the targeting the edge, which is everything from telco to whatever. Yeah. What's the business model. Yeah. >>Maybe before we go there, let's talk about edge itself. Cuz edge is complex. There's a lot of companies. I call 'em lens company nowadays, if you're not a cloud company, you're probably an edge company at this point. So we are focusing something called the distributed edge. So distributed edge. When you start putting tiny servers in environments like factory floors, solar farms, wind farms, even inside machines or well sites, et cetera. And a question that people always ask me, like why, why would you want to put, you know, servers there on servers supposed to be in a data center in the cloud? And the answer to the question actually is data gravity. So traditionally wherever the data gets created is where your applications live. But as we're connecting more and more devices to the edge of the network, we basically customers now are required to push the applications to the edge cause they can't go all the data to the cloud. So basically that's where we focus on people call it the far edge as well. You know, that's the term we've heard in the past as well. And what we do in our business model is provide customers a, a software as a service solution where they can basically deploy and monitor these applications at these highly distributed environments. >>Data, gravity comes up a lot and I want you to take a minute to explain the definition as it is today. And people have used that term, you know, with big data, going back to 2010 leads when we covering the Hadoop wave, which ended up becoming, you know, data, data, bricks, and snowflake now, but, but a lots changed, but what does it mean to be data gravity? It means that staying local, it's just what specifically describe and, and define what data gravity is. >>Yeah. So for me, data gravity is where you need to process the data, right? It's where the data usually gets created. So if you think about a web app, where does the data get created? Where people click on buttons, they, they interface with it. They, they upload content to it, et cetera. So that's where the data gravity therefore is therefore that's where you do your analytics. That's where you do your visualization processing, machine learning and all of those pieces. So it's really where that data gets created is where the data gravity in my view says, >>What are some of the challenges that data and opportunities that data gravity presents to customers? >>Well, obviously I think every enterprise in this day is trying to take data and make it a competitive advantage, right? Like faster decisions, better decisions, outcompete your competition by, you know, being first with a product or being first with a product with the future, et cetera. So, so I think, you know, if you're not a data driven enterprise by now, then I think the future may be a little bit bleak. >>Okay. So you're targeting the market distributed edge business model, SAS technology, secret sauce. What's that piece. >>Yeah. So that's, that's what the interesting part comes in. I think, you know, if you kind of look at the data center in the cloud, we've had these virtualization and orchestration stacks create, I mean, we're here in VMware Explorer. And as an example, what we basically, what we saw is that the edge is so unique and so different than what we've seen in the data center, in the cloud that we needed to build a complete brand new purpose-built illustration and virtualization solution. So that's really what we, we set off to do. So there's two components that we do. One end is we built a purpose-built edge operating system for the edge and we actually open sourced it. And the reason we opensource it, we said, Hey, you know, edge is so diverse. You know, depending on the environment you're running in a machine or in a vehicle or in a well site, you have different hardware, different networks, different applications you need to enable. >>And we will never be able to support all of them ourselves. As a matter of fact, we actually think there's a need for standardization at the edge. We need to kind of cut through all these silos that have been created traditionally from the embedded way of thinking. So we created basically an open source project in the Linux foundation in LFS, which is a sister organization through the CNCF it's called project Eve. And the idea is to create the Android of the edge, basically what Android became for mobile computing, an a common operating system. So you build one app. You can run in any phone in the world that runs Android, build an architecture. You build one app. You can run in any Eve powered node in the world, >>So distributed edge and you get the tech here, get the secret sauce. We'll get more into that in a second, but I wanna just tie one kick quick point and get your clarification on edge is becoming much more about the physical side too. I mean, absolutely. So when you talk about Android, you're making the reference of a phone. I get that's metaphor to what you're doing at the edge, wind farms, factories, alarms, light bulbs, buildings. I mean, that's what you're talking about, right? Yes. We're getting down to that very, >>Very physical, dark distributed locations. >>We're gonna come back to the CISO CSO. We're gonna come back to the CISO versus CSO question because is the CISO or CIO or who runs that anyway? So that's true. What's the important thing that's happening because that sounds like old OT world, like yes. Operating technology, not it information technology, is it a complete reset of those worlds or is it a collision? >>It's a great question. So what we're seeing is first of all, there is already compute in these environments, industrial PCs of existed well beyond, you know, an industrial automation has been done for many, many decades. The point is that that stuff has been done. Collect data has been collected, but never connected, right? So with edge computing, we're connecting now this data from an industrial machine and industrial process to the cloud, right? And one of the problems is it's data that comes of that industrial process too much to upload to the cloud. So I gotta analyze, analyze it locally. So one of the, the things we saw early on in edge is there's a lot of brownfield. Most of our customers today actually have applications running on windows and they would love to make in Linux and containers and Kubernetes, but it took them 20, 30 years to build those apps. And they basically are the money makers of the enterprise. So they are in a, in a transitionary phase and they need something that can take them from the brown to the Greenfield. So to your point, you gotta support all of these types of unique brownfield applications. >>So you're, you're saying I don't really care if this is a customer, how you get the data, you wanna start new start fresh. That's cool. But if you wanna take your old data, you'll >>Take that. Yeah. You don't wanna rebuild the whole machine. You're >>Just, they can life cycle it out on their own timetable. Yeah. >>So we had to learn, first of all, how do we take and lift and shift windows based industrial application and make it run at the edge on, on our architecture. Right? And then the second step is how do we then Sen off that data that this application is generating and do we fuse it with cloud native capability? Like, >>So your cloud, so your staff is your open source that you're giving to the Linux foundation as part of that Eve project that's available to everybody. So they can, they can look at the code, which is great by the way. Yeah. So people wanna do that. Yeah. Your self source, I'm assuming, is your hardened version with support? >>Well, we took what we took, what the open source companies did, opensource companies traditionally have sold, you know, basically a support model around the open source. We actually saw another problem. Customers has like, okay, now I have this node running and I can, you know, do this data analytics, but what if I have 15 or 20,000 of these node? And they're all around the world in remote locations on satellite links or wireless connectivity, how do I orchestrate them? So we actually build an orchestration service for these nodes running this open source >>Software. So that's a key secret sauce right there. >>That is the business model that taking open store and a lot. >>And you're taking your own code that you have. Okay. Got it. Cool. And then the customer's customer piece is, is key. So that's the final piece, I guess who's using it. >>Yeah. Well, and, >>And, and one of the business outcomes that they're achieving. Oh >>Yeah. Well, so maybe start with that first. I mean, we are deployed in customers in all and gas, for instance, helping them with the transition to renewable energy, right? So basically we, we have customers for instance, that deploy us in the, how they drill Wells is one use case and doing that better, faster, and cheaper and, and less environmental impacting. But we also have customers that use us in wind farms. We have, and solar farms, like we, one of the leading solar energy companies in the world is using us to bring down the cost of power by predicting failures ahead of time, for >>Instance. And when you're working with customers to create the optimal solution at the distributed edge, who are you working with in, within an organization? Yeah. >>It's usually a mix of OT and it people. Okay. So the OT people typically they're >>Arm wrestling, well, or they're getting along, actually, >>I think they're getting along very well. Okay, good. But they also agree that they have to have swim lanes. The it folks, obviously their job is to make sure, you know, everything is secure. Everything is according to the compliance it's, it's, you know, the, the best TCO on the infrastructure, those type of things, the OT guy, they, they, or girl, they care about the application. They care about the services. They care about the support new business. So how can you create a model that too can coexist? And if you do that, they get along really well. >>You know, we had an event called Supercloud and@theurlsupercloud.world, if you're watching check it out, it's our version of what we think multicloud will merge into including edge cuz edge is just another node in the, in the, in the network. As far as we're concerned, hybrid is the steady state. That's distributed computing on premise, private cloud, public cloud. We know what that looks like. People love that things are happening. Edge is like a whole nother new area. That's blossoming and with disruption, yeah. There's a lot of existing market and incumbents that need to be disrupted. And there's also a new capabilities that are coming that we don't yet see. So we're seeing it with the super cloud idea that these new kinds of clouds are emerging. Like there could be an edge cloud. Yeah. Why isn't there a security cloud, whereas the financial services cloud, whereas the insurance cloud, whereas the, so these become super clouds where the CapEx could be done by the Amazon, whatnot you've been following them is edge cloud. Can you make that a cloud? Is that what you guys are trying to do? And if so, what does that look like? Cause we we're adding a new track to our super cloud site. I mentioned on edge specifically, we're trying to figure out you and if you share your opinion, it'd be great. Can the E can edge clouds exist and be run by companies? Yeah. Or is that what you guys are trying to do? >>I, I, I mean, I think first of all, there is no edge without cloud, right? So when I meet any customer who says, Hey, we're gonna do edge without cloud. Then I'm like, you're probably not gonna do edge computing. Right. And, and the way we built the company and the way we think about it, it's about extending the cloud experience all the way into these embedded distributed environments. That's really, I think what customers are looking for, cuz customers love the simplicity of the cloud. They love the ease of use agility, all of that greatness. And they're like, Hey, I want that. But not in a, you know, in an Amazon or Azure data center. I want that in my factories. I want that in my wealth sites, in my vehicles. And that's really what I think the future >>Is gonna. And how long have you guys been around? What's the, what's the history of the company because you might actually be that cloud. Yeah. And are you on AWS or Azure? You're building your own. What's the, >>Yeah. Yeah. So >>Take it through the, the architecture because yeah, yeah, sure. You're a modern startup. I mean you gotta, and the edges you're going after you gotta be geared up. Yeah. To win that. Yeah. >>So, so the company's about five years old. So we, when we started focusing on edge, people didn't necessarily talk as much about edge. We kind of identified the it's like, you know, how do you find a black hole in, in the universe? Cuz you can't see it, but you sort of look around that's why you in it. And so we were like looking at it, like there's something gonna happen here at the edge of the network, because everybody's saying we're connecting these vice upload the data to the cloud's never gonna work. My background is networking. I worked at companies like Juniper and Ericsson ran several products there. So I know how the internet networks have built. And it was very Evan to me. It's not gonna be possible. My co-founders come from open source companies like pivotal and Cloudera. My auto co-founder was a, an engineer at sun Microsystems built the first network stack in the solar is operating system. So a lot of experience that kind of came together to build this. >>Yeah. Cloudera is a big day. That's where the cube started by the way. Yeah. >>Yeah. So, so we, we, we have, I think a good view on the stack, the cloud stack and therefore a good view of what the ed stack needs to look like. And then I think, you know, to answer your other question, our orchestration service runs in the cloud. We have, we actually are multi-cloud company. So we offer customers choice where they want to orchestrate the node from the nodes themself, never sit in a data center. They always highly embedded. We have customers are putting machines or inside these factory lines, et cetera. Are >>You running your SAS on Amazon web services or which >>Cloud we're running it on several clouds, including Amazon, all of, pretty much the cloud. So some customers say, Hey, I'd prefer to be on the Amazon set. And others customers say, I wanna be on Azure set. >>And you leverage their CapEx on that side. Yes. On behalf of yeah. >>Yeah. We, yes. Yes. But the majority of the customer data and, and all the data that the nodes process, the customer send it to their clouds. They don't send it to us. We don't get a copy of the camera feed analytics or the machine data. We actually decouple those though. So basically the, the team production data go straight to the customer's cloud and that's why they love us. >>And they choose that they can control their own desktop. >>Yeah. So we separate the management plane from the data plane at the edge. Yeah. >>That's a good call >>Actually. Yeah. That was another very important part of the architecture early on. Cause customers don't want us to see their, you know, highly confidential production data and we don't wanna have it either. So >>We had a great chat with Chris Wolf who works with kit culvert about control plane, data, plane. So that seems to be the trend data, plane customers want full yeah. Management of that. Yeah. Control plane. Maybe give multiple >>Versions. Yeah. Yeah. So our cloud consumption what the data we stories about the apps, their behavior, the networking, the security, all of that. That's what we store in our cloud. And then customers can access that and monitor. But the actual machine that I go somewhere else >>Here we are at VMware. Explore. Talk a little bit about the VMware relationship. You just had some big news the other day. >>Yeah. So two days ago we actually made a big announcement with VMware. So we signed an OEM agreement with VMware. So we're part now of VMware's edge compute stack. So VMware customers, as they start using the recently announced edge compute stack 2.0, that was announced here. Basically it's powered by Edda technology. So it's a really exciting partnership as part of this, we actually building integrations with the VMware organization products. So that's basically now extending to more, you know, other groups inside VMware. >>So what's the value in it for VMware customers. >>Yeah. So I think the, the, the benefit of, of VMware customers, I think cus VMware customers want that multi-cloud multi edge orchestration experience. So they wanna be able to deploy workloads in the cloud. They wanna deploy the workloads in the data center. And of course also at the edge. So by us integrating in that vision customers now can have that unified experience from cloud to edge and anywhere in between. >>What's the big vision that you see happening at the edge. I mean, a lot of the VMware customers here, they're classic it that have evolved into ops now, dev ops. Now you've got second data ops coming. The edge is gonna right around the corner for them. They're dealing with it now, probably just kicking the tires, towing the water kind of thing. Where do you see the vision going? Cuz now, no matter what happens with VMware, the Broadcom, this wave is still here. You got AWS, got Azure, got Google cloud, you got Oracle, Alibaba internationally. And the cloud native surges here. How do you see that disrupting the existing edge? Because let's face it the O some of those OT players, a little bit old and antiquated, a little bit outdated. I mean, I was talking to a telco person. They, they puked the word open source. I mean, these people are so dogmatic on, on their architecture. Yeah. They're gonna get disrupted. It's a matter of time. Yeah. Where's the new guard come in. How do you see the configuration changing in the landscape? Because some people will cross over to the right side of the street here. Yeah. Some won't yeah. Open circle. Dominate cloud native will be key. Yeah. >>Well, I mean, I think, again, let's, let's take an example of a vertical that's heavily disrupted now as the automotive market, right? The, so look at Tesla and look at all these companies, they built, they built software first cars, right? Software, first delivery of capabilities and everything else. And the, and the incumbents. They have only two options, right? Either they try to respond by adopting open source cloud, native technologies. Like the, these new entrants have done and really, you know, compete with them at that level, or they can become commodity. Right. So, and I think that's the customers we're seeing the smart customers go like, we need to compete with these guys. We need to figure out how to take this technology in. And they need partners like us and partners like VMware for them. >>Do you see customers becoming cloud super cloud players? If they continue to keep leveraging the CapEx of the clouds and focus all their operational capital on top line revenue, generating activities. >>Yeah. I, so I think the CapEx model of the cloud is a great benefit of the cloud, but I think that is not, what's the longer term future of the cloud. I think the op the cloud operating model is the future. Like the agility, the ability imagine embedded software that, you know, you do an over the year update to fix a bug, but it's very hard to make a, an embedded device smarter over time. And then imagine if you can run cloud native software, you can roll out every two weeks new features and make that thing smarter, intelligent, and continue to help you in your business. That I think is what cloud did ultimately. And I think that is what really these customers are gonna need at their edge. >>Well, we talked about the value within it for customers with the VMware partnership, but what are some of your expectations? Obviously, this is a pretty powerful partnership for you guys. Yeah. What are some of the things that you're expecting that this is gonna drive? Yeah, >>So we, we, we have always operated at the more OT layer, distributed organizations in retail, energy, industrial automotive. Those are the verticals we, so we've developed. I think a lot of experience there, what, what we're seeing as we talk to those customers is they obviously have it organizations and the it organizations, Hey, that's great. You're looking at its computing, but how do we tie this into the existing investments we made with VMware? And how do we kind of take that also to this new environment? And I think that's the expectation I have is that I think we will be able to, to talk to the it folks and say, Hey, you can actually talk to the OT person. And both of you will speak the same language. You probably will both standardize on the same architecture and you'll be together deploying and enabling this new agility at the edge. >>What are some of the next things coming up for ZDA and the team? >>Well, so we've had a really amazing few quarters. We just close a series B round. So we've raised the companies raised over 55 million so far, we're growing very rapidly. We opened up no new international offices. I would say the, the early customers that we started deploying, wait a while back, they're now going into mass scale deployment. So we have now deployments underway in, you know, the 10 to hundred thousands of nodes at certain customers and in amazing environments. And so, so for us, it's continuing to prove the product in more and more verticals. Our, our product is really built for the largest of the largest. So, you know, for the size of the company, we are, we have a high concentration of fortune 500 global 500 customers, and some of them even invested in our rounds recently. So we we've been really, you know, honored with that support. Well, congratulations. Good stuff, edges popping. All right. Thank you. >>Thank you so much for joining us, talking about what you're doing in distributed edge. What's in it for customers, the VMware partnership, and by the way, congratulations on >>That too. Thank you. Thank you so much. Nice to meet you. Thank >>You. All right. Nice to meet you as well for our guest and John furrier. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube live from VMware Explorer, 22, John and I will be right back with our next guest.

>>Okay, welcome back everyone. To the cubes coverage of AWS summit, 2022 in San Francisco, California. We're here, live on the floor at the Mosconi south events are back. I'm John fur, your host. Remember AWS summit 2022 in New York city is coming this summer. We'll be there with the live cube there as well. Look for us there, but of course, we're back in action with the cloud and AWS. Our next guest Garrett Miller is the general manager of navigation at Mapbox. I mean, it's been a Amazon customer for a long time, Garrett. Thanks for coming on the cube. >>Yeah. Thanks for having us, John. >>So you guys are in the middle of, I love the whole location base slash we developer integration. We've had many conversations on the cube around how engineers and developers are becoming embedded into the application, whether it's from a security standpoint, biometrics, all kinds of stuff, being built into the app and, and location navigation. That's right. Is huge from cars. Everyone knows their car, car map. That's right. GPS satellites, some space it's complicated. It sounds like it sounds easy, but I know it's hard. Yeah. You, you get the keynote going on today. Give us a quick update on Mapbox and we'll then we'll talk about the keynote. >>Yeah. You bet John that's right. So as you were saying, you know, it really is. It's all about location intelligence. And how does that get embedded into the applications? And to the point you made vehicles that are out there on the roads to today. So we target developers. Those are our key customers, and we've got over three and a half million registered on the platform today. They consume the modules that we build with APIs, SDKs, data sets, and more and more applications to accomplish whatever those location needs might be. >>Why we appreciate you coming on. You are featured keynote by presenter here at summit, which means Amazon thinks you're super important to share. I'll say your customer. So you, I know you've been a customer for a long time as a company, but what was your keynote about what was the main theme? The developers were all here. You got the builders. What was your content? What did you present this morning on the keynote? Yeah, >>Well, this morning we really talked a lot about logistics and the, this story that we told was know in the logistics industry, there is a massive movement to shorter and shorter delivery windows. And so the, the, the story that we told is really around a 10 minute delivery. Now, have you ever wondered how you get a 10 minute delivery? You, you place an order on your phone and all of a sudden somebody shows up at your front doorstep. You ever wonder about that? >><laugh> >>Some shows supply >>Chain. Someone's waiting in the wings from my call. >>Yeah. >>Yeah. Well, that's right. >>John's about to order sometime soon. That's right. You ready? That's right. Do all these assets. That's >>Right. They're all ready for you. But there's actually a tremendous amount that actually goes into that. And so it really starts with designing the right distribution system up front. And so we've got tools and, and applications and, and APIs that support that. And really it, every single step of the way, location is a critical aspect to making that delivery happen and getting it to a customer's doorstep in 10 minutes or less. And so how are you understanding the real time road graph that underlies a, a, a driver going from perhaps a dark store, dark kitchen to getting in, excuse me, in front of a customer in 10 minutes with hot food. >>I mean, this is a big point. I was just joking about waiting for me, you know, that, but the point is, is that it's not obvious, but it sounds really hard. I know it's hard because to have that delivery, a lot of things have to happen. It's not just knowing location. >>That's exactly >>Right. So can you just UN pull appeal back the covers on that? What's going on there? >>Yeah. So imagine this is, is, it really starts, as I was saying with designing that distribution system and it's putting in place where you might not expect it, it's actually putting in place a retail store, but these aren't any retail stores, right? These are dark stores. These are dark kitchens that are strategically placed as close as possible, the customer density, so that you can actually shorten that window as much as possible to get you whatever that order might be. But from there, it actually goes quite a bit further when an order actually comes in, you've gotta be able to understand how do I sign an, a driver to get that order to the customer in that, in that very short period of time, more often than not, it's getting it to the driver that can get there the fastest, once you've got the right driver identified, how are you actually then going to enable them to get from point a to B to get that order. >>And then perhaps from B to C to get to your front door, being able to do turn by turn navigation that reflects everything. That's how happening in the real world to be able to get there on a timely way is critical. And then wrapping around that actually the, the, the end customer's experience your experience with how are you placing that order? Yeah. How are you using Mapbox services to do that? How are you being able to track on your application and say, well, you know, great, I expect 10 minutes and they're five minutes away. Are you gonna show up our APIs and SDKs power? That experience, >>I wanna get into the product in a second, but you brought up something I think's important to highlight. One is dark kitchens, dark stores. That's right. Okay. Term people may or may not have heard of, we all have experience in COVID going to our favorite restaurant, which has been kind of downsized because of the COVID and we're waiting for our food. And someone comes in from another delivery ever standing in line next was just pick something up. I mean, they're going through the front door. That's like the, the, the branded store. So, so is it right to say that dark kitchens are essentially replicas of the store to minimize that traffic, but, but also to be efficient for something else that's right. >>It actually even goes further than that. There are many restaurant brands. Now, it only exists as a brand. They don't have a restaurant that you can go to and sit down and have that meal. They actually only operate dark kitchens to, to serve that demand of people wanting to order up, Hey, I want my food. I want it. Now, those brands exist to serve that need. >>All right. So great for the definition, we just define dark kitchens, dark stores, but also brings, I wanna get your reaction to this before we get into the product, cuz this is a trend that's right. This is not like a one off thing. That's right. It's not a pulled forward TA a market that was COVID enabled. This is actually a user experience inflection point. That's >>Right. >>Can you share your vision on what this means? Because there's mobile ordering, there's the dynamics of the kitchens as a supplier of something in stores. So that's content or a product that's being delivered to a consumer via of the web. So now there's gotta be a whole nother reef factoring of the operating environment. Now that's what's happening is that might get that >>Right? No, that's exactly right. And even if you step back, even further and you, you think about the, the journey that the logistics industry has been on, it used to be that two days was that really exciting delivery time. Right. And everybody got it super excited. Then it became next day. Then it became same day and now it's become 10 minutes. And even some companies are out there offering seven minute deliveries, right. And in order to do that, you've gotta completely retool your business. So you can think the logistics and industry really existing on two continuums, you've got pre-planned deliveries on one hand and on-demand deliveries on the other. And there are two parallel distribution systems and ecosystems and industries really springing up to serve those different types of demand. >>So you've been on Amazon web services customer for how many years, >>Since 2013 in our founding. And you know, actually we're really proud to say that we were born on Amazon and we have scaled on Amazon. >>How are they helping you scale? What are they doing to help you? >>Well, I'd say just about everything. And if you think about their, the, the services that Amazon provides for us, they power every single step of our business along the way. And so I'll give you an example. We can walk through that with some of the tech technology. I, if you think about again, how do you get 10 minutes? You gotta have a pretty precise understanding of what's going on in the real world. And so to do that, it, for us, it all starts with collecting billions and billions of data points from sensors that are out there in the world. We stream that into our technology stack, starting at the very beginning with Amazon ESIS. And so that's just the start. But then that feeds into our entire technology stack that all runs on site on top of AWS, to where we're running our own AI models that we use Amazon SageMaker to make, and then stream it back out to our AP, through our APIs, to our se Ks and applications that sit on the edge again, all leveraging Amazon technology. >>Well, I think this is a great use case and I'll get back into the, the Mapbox a second, but Amazon, you guys are executing what I call the super cloud vision, which is snowflake you guys building on their CapX leverage. You're building a super cloud on your own. It's your app, it's your cloud. >>That's right. That's right. So if you, again, if you think about it, you know, and actually just stepping back for a moment, tell about Mapbox for a second is what, what Mapbox can do is provide the most accurate digital representation of the physical world. Think about the Mapbox technology, delivering the most accurate digital twin of mother earth, right? That's what we do. And the way that we do that is to consume, as I said earlier, vast amounts of data, we've got powerful AI that structures that data, and then really robust and scalable infrastructure that underpins all of that. Now the benefit of working with a company like AWS is that they take care of that third point. Yeah. Which means we get to go focus on the first two, which is how we differentiate and build our >>Business. And that's exactly the model of how you win in the cloud. In my opinion, that's the go big piece, the go and there's tools that fit in white spaces. But that's the, I think that's the right formula. Let's get back to Mac boxer. I know you've got news. You got the, the, uh, Mapbox fleet SDK. You announced, I wanna hold on that we'll get to in a second, let's get back to what you got are providing that example as you have this new operating environment of how delivery and, and supply chain and that's example, I want to know how tech your technology is making all that work. Because I was just talking to someone last night about this web van was web 1.0 and crash never was successful. Instacart is kind of hurting. So maybe they're optimized. You could save them. I mean, cuz the economics gotta work. If you don't have the underlying system built, that might fail. So there'll be probably the third version that gets it. Right. Maybe at Mapbox again, I'm speculating, but I'll let you talk. Yeah. How does Mapbox solve the, that problem? >>You know, it's interesting if you come back to that, that, that analogy we're using with AWS and how do you use AWS to win in the cloud? It's the same story for Mapbox of how do you win in the location industry? And what we do is provide those same tool sets of APIs and SDKs, the thing go power, those logistics companies like an Instacart, who's a great customer of ours to run in their logistics business on top of it again, it's all about how do you provide technology that allows your customers yeah. To focus on what matters from a differentiation perspective as they focus on building their >>Business and you think your economics is gonna enable these people to be successful >>100%. That's >>The goal >>100%. >>All right. So another thing that I wanna bring up is the fleet SDK, what was the, that you announced they can, you just quickly share the news on what this >>Is? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I appreciate that, John. Yeah. So today on the Eve of earth day, we're very excited to announce Mapbox fleet going into, uh, our beta launch and what Mapbox fleet is, is, uh, a set of tools and application that allows our customers to more efficiently route their vehicles, which means lowering their fuel consumption. And at the same time, more efficiently dispatching those vehicles, which means that you can get more done with fewer assets, essentially. How do you get more packages onto a single vehicle to get those to the customers? Now you may be watching the news and understanding, yeah, there's a tremendous explosion of delivery going. Yeah. And that's fantastic. Right? That's great business for our logistics customers. Good business for us too. What's happening though, is that as those volumes are ballooning, everybody's all of a sudden, really looking at their cost structures and trying to understand how do I manage this? >>Right. I have efficiency targets as a business. Maybe I've been really focused on customer acquisition. Now it's time to flip the model and really understand in the economics of profitable growth. We help with that, with that focus on efficiency, but the double edged sword with growth and, and you know, running a logistics business is that you actually have a tremendous amount of carbon emissions that are associated with that. Yeah. For a car to show up or a truck to show up, to deliver something to your house, their emissions associated with that. So what we find is that we're able to not only drive dollar savings for our customers, but also as part of that, with the efficiency angle, really help to drive down the overall carbon impact in the carbon footprint of what they do. And >>How do you do that? >>Well, it's the efficiency lens, right? So if somebody is driving 20%, fewer miles, they're going to emit 20% fewer. Okay. >>Gotcha. So it's a numbers game across the board with actual measurement. That's exactly right. Built in and say optimization paths, all kinds of navigation. >>That's exactly right. So embedded within Mapbox fleet application are those optimization algorithm. >>So you got a platform that's setting up for the next level delivery system slash new way to connect people to goods and services and other things getting from point a to point B, you got the sustainability check you're in the cloud, born in the cloud cloud scale. I gotta a, I can't go without asking if you're on Amazon, you do all this cool stuff. There's gotta be a machine learning an AI angle. So what is that? Yeah, absolutely. >>Absolutely. AB yeah. You know, <laugh> guilty as charged. >>I would say >>John. Uh, so look, I >>Think, I mean AI and, and sustainability are gonna be, I think filings in my, in the future we be talking about on the cube, if you're not an AI company or, and doing force for good stuff, I think there's gonna be mandatory requirements on those. >>I couldn't three more. I think the ESG agenda is an incredibly important one. One that's core to Mapbox has been since the founding of the company back in 2013. Uh, but if you look at how does AI and ML fit into Mapbox, it does that in a number of different ways. And really when we come back to this idea of Mapbox creating a digital twin of the earth, the way that we do that, it is through ingesting a tremendous amount of sensor data. Right? You can imagine, uh, Mapbox customers on any given week drive, billions of miles, we're capturing all of that telemetry data to understand and make sense of what does that mean for, for, for the world that allows us to push in any given day 700,000 updates to our underly, your location technology stack, and at the same time provide insights as to exactly what's happening. Are there roadside incidents? Are there, are there issues with traffic? So by collecting all of that data, we run incredibly powerful AI models on top of it that allow us to create the, the real world representation of what's happening. That's exactly how >>It works. What, what, as they say in the, um, big data AI world is you guys have a tremendous observation space. You're looking at a lot of surface area data that's exactly right. Across multiple workloads and apps. That's >>Exactly >>Right. You can connect those dots with the right AI. >>That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And I think I, you know, coming back to your point around sustainability, I do think that the AI and ML capabilities that are being delivered are going to be paramount to that. It being such a fundamental aspect to what am, to what Mapbox does as a business allows us to launch these game changing solutions like Mapbox fleet and staying on that, that kind of environmental and sustainable kick for a second. Just last week, we launched our, our EV routing API that powers the next generation of EVs. So AI ML sustainability. If it's not core business today, it's gotta very quickly become core. >>It's really interesting. I really think what we're teasing out here and it's fun to talk about it now because we'll look back at it later 10 years or more and say, wow, this is completely refactored the industry and lives and the planet ultimately. Right. So this is a, a kind of got force for good built into the system natively. That's >>Right. That's >>That's interesting, Garrett, thanks so much for sharing the story. Give you the last word, share with the audience, what you guys are up to, what you're promoting, what you're looking for. Are you hiring, uh, is there a call to action? You wanna share? Give the plug for the company? Yeah, >>Absolutely hiring like crazy come join Mapbox and BU build the future of geolocation and intelligent location services with us. Uh, the, thanks so much for the time, >>John. Thanks for coming on cube coverage here in San Francisco, California Mosconi center back at live events. I'm John for host cube stayed with us as day two wraps down. Remember New York city. This summer will be there as well. Cube coverage of more cloud coverage events are back. Thanks for watching.

>>from around the globe. It's >>the Q with digital coverage of AWS Public sector online brought to you by Amazon Web services. Hello. I'm John for a host of the Cube. We're here covering A W. S s international public sector virtual event. We have a great guest. The star of the program is Max Peterson, Good friend of the Cube. Also Vice President of A W s International for Public Sector Max. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on this virtual remote interview. Cuban interview. Hey, >>John. Great to be back on the Cube, even if it is virtual >>well, you know, we're not face to face. We have to go virtual. So the cube virtual, you've got to public sector summit. Virtual. Um, this is the time of the year where normally we'd be out on the road in Bahrain, Japan, Asia, Pacific Europe. We'd be out on the summits talking to all the guests and presenting that the update on public sector. But we have to do it remotely. Um, a little bit of trade off. The good news is with cove it for at least you guys. It's a global media network. And with these remote interviews. Uh, public sector is seeing a lot more global activity, and that's what I want to get your thoughts on. What is the business update internationally for public sector? I'm sure that with CO over the pandemic, you're seeing a lot of activity. How is the public sector business doing internationally? >>John, You know, you mentioned one of the silver linings of a pretty bad situation with the Koven pandemic. And that's been that it has meant that people have to be resourceful. Governments have to be resourceful on DSO. There's been a tremendous amount of innovation people have gotten used to now using modern cloud technology to support remote work and remote war learning. Um, out of necessity, we've had to figure out how do we deliver far greater health care services using digital technology, telemedicine, digital social care, uh, chime rooms? Uh, it really, in a nutshell, has been a tough six months for people, but a relative relatively busy six months for innovation. And for i t for the public sector customers, >>you know, I did an interview a few months ago for one of the award programs in Canada. Um, with the center had a customer on disk customers. The classic customer, a Amazon. You know, I'm not sure we do it all internally. He deployed A W S Connect in literally days that saved the lives of many of his countrymen and women by getting the entitlement checks out. And he was a glowing endorsement because, he said, with Cove in 19 they were crippled. He said they will. They stood up a call center and literally he was converted. That's just one example again. That's Canada of the kind of solutions that you guys air, enabling with Cloud to quickly respond to the crisis, to use technology to solve other technology problems and also business problems. Can you give an example on the international front of where you're seeing some activity? Because this seems to be the same pattern we're seeing, People who have used in the cloud we cube virtual. Will there be no Cuba's wasn't for our cloud implementations, but this is, um, obvious, but I want to call it out. It's important. Can you share some examples of people internationally using the cloud to get and respond to the to the cove in 19 pandemic in delivering services? >>Yeah, In fact, John, we're focusing a lot on that at the public sector summit online that comes up here in October. Um, a couple of quick examples. In fact, one of the top learnings is speed matters. And so we have Eve Curry from Australia, who talks about social and health care and how they were able to get a complete digital suite up and running for supporting 5000 elderly patients and over 3000 employees in less than a week, and that included getting up and running a video conferencing and tele consultation capability using AWS chime. It involved getting up and running collaboration space for the remote workers using work work docks. And it involves setting up a complete call center on the cloud, using Amazon time and literally that was done in less than a week. Another example, really ambitious example, which again is a testament to the innovation and, uh, the capability, the capability that AWS brings to customers. I'm in India. They had a number of tele medicine applications. They were available for a fee, but they didn't have a universal way to reach the vast population in India. And so when the pandemic hit three organization that was responsible for the public health component was challenged to get a no cost tele consultation hella medicine system up and running for outpatient services that could scale to reach a billion people. Um, they did that in 19 days. They got the system up and running Now hasn't gotten to a billion people online at one time. But there right now, doing 6000 consultations a day with about 4000 doctors, and they're headed toward 100,000 consultations today. Eso just to your point, speed and scale. We're seeing it across the board from from our public sector customers. >>You know, it's just mind boggling just to kind of pinch myself from it in 19 days. It's crazy, right? I mean, crazy fast If you throw back to the eighties and nineties when I broke into the business, you know, young gun client server was all the rage back then. And if you wanted to do, like a big apt upon an oracle s a p, whatever it was years, it was months just to do planning. E mean, I mean, think about the telemedicine example 19 days. That's huge. I mean, just the scale is just off the charts. So So I mean, even if you're not a believer in cloud I don't feel should be should just go home and retire at this point because it's just obvious. Uh, the question I wanna ask you specifically because Theresa brought this up on my last interview with her. And I wanna ask you the same question is, what is AWS doing specifically to help customers? I know customers are helping themselves. You mentioned that. What are you guys doing? Toe? Accelerate this. How are you helping of you guys changed a little bit. Can you just share what you guys specifically doing to help customers pivot toe not only solving it, but having a growth strategy behind it? >>Yeah, John, that's a great question. Some of the things that we're doing our long standing programs and so customers from day one have had a need for skills and workforce development. We keep on doubling down on those programs. Things like a W s academy aws educate our restart programs in different countries. So number one is we continue to help customers double down on getting the right cloud skills to enable the digital workforce. The second thing, in fact, if I can, for just amendment, um, there is actually a section of the public sector online called the New Workforce, which talks about both the digital skills that are required and then also some of the remote working skills that we need to help folks with. So So workforce is a big one. Um, the second one. Yeah, and I'm super excited about this because we've opened up the opportunity, form or customers around the globe to participate in our city on the Cloud Challenge Onda That gives a great opportunity to showcase and highlight the innovation of public sector customers and, you know, win some AWS credits and technical assistance to help them build their programs. But I think one of the most the things I'm most proud about in the last 6 to 9 months was when the when this pandemic struck and we listen to our customers about what they needed. We came out with something called the AWS Diagnostic Development Initiative, and that was a program specifically aimed at providing technical assistance. Um, a ws cloud credits all to researchers to help them, um, tackle the tough questions that need to be answered to help us deal with and then hopefully resolve the pandemic. >>So on the international front, like I said earlier in the open, we would've been in Bahrain. That's a new region, only a couple of years old, Obviously the historic, um this, um, geopolitical things happening there, opening things up, that's been a very successful region. This is the playbook. Can you just give us an update on some of the successes in the different regions by rain and then a pack and other areas? What? Some of the highlights? >>Sure, John, One of the things that I think it's super exciting is that all of these customers are developing new capabilities right now. Um, one example from Egypt. Uh, they had to get literally an entire student population back to school. When the pandemic hit on DSO. They quickly pivoted to bringing a online learning management system or LMS up on the cloud on AWS. Um, and they have been able to continue to teach classes, literally to millions of students there. We've seen that same sort of distance learning online education across the globe. Another example would be when countries needed to figure out how to beam or effective in that sort of time tested, contact tracing process. So So when ah person has been found to have the the flu or the illness the subject illness, um, they typically have a lot of manual contact tracers that have to try to identify kind of where that person's been and see if they can. Then, um, helped to control the spread of whatever the diseases Kobe 19. In this case, um, we put together with governments across the world with a W s partners across the world again in very fast order, automated systems to help governments manage this, um, Singapore is a super example. India's a massively scaled example, but we did it in countries of across the globe, and we did it by working with them and the partners there to specifically respond to their needs. So everybody's case, while similar at a high level, you know, was unique in the way that they had to implement it. >>And it's been a great, great ride international us with co vid. You guys have ah current situation. You guys are providing benefits and I'll see the cloud itself for the customer to build those modern APS. The question I wanna ask you, Max, as an executive at eight of yourself. So you've been in the industry, Um, with public sector pre covert, it's, you know, it's before Cove. And there's after Govind is gonna be kind of like that demarcation line in the society. Um, it has become a global thing. I just did an event with Cal Poly was mentioned before we came on, um, small little symposium that would have been, you know, face to face. But because we did it virtually it's now global reinvents coming up. That's gonna be essentially virtual. So it's gonna be more global, less physical, space to face. Everything is introduced, no boundaries. So how >>does that >>impact? How do you How do you guys, How do you look at that? Because it impacts you, I guess a little bit because there's no boundaries, >>right? You know, John, I think this plays into what we're talking about in terms of people and governments and organizations getting used to new ways of working on de so some of our new workforce development is based around that, not just the digital skills in the cloud skills a couple of the things that we've recognized by the way, Um, it's different, but done well, there's new benefits. And so so one of the things that we've seen is where people employ chime, for instance, Uh, video conferencing solution or solutions from our partners like Zoom and others. Onda people have been able to actually be Maurin touch, for instance, with elder care. Um, there were a number of countries that introduced shielding. That meant that people couldn't physically go and visit their moms and dads. Um and so what we've seen is a number of systems on care organizations that have responded andare helping thing the elderly, uh, to use this new tech on. But it's really actually, uh, heartwarming, uh, to see those connections happen again, even in this virtual world. And the interesting thing is, you can actually step up the frequency on DSO. You don't have to be there physically, but you can be there, Andi and interact and support with the number of these thes tools. I think one of the other big learnings that we've seen for many organizations and just about every public sector group has toe work with, um uh, their constituents on the phone. Of course, we've got physical offices, you know, whether it's a hospital or a outpatient center or a social care center. Um, but you always have to have a way to work on phones. What's happened during the Cove in 19 Pandemic is there's been a surge is where information needed to get out to citizens or where citizens literally rushed the phone lines to be able to get the most current information back. Andi, the legacy called systems have been completely overwhelmed, their inadequate. And we've seen customers launch the online call center in the cloud piece, using Amazon connect as their starting point. But then, you know, continuously innovating. And so starting to use things like Lex to be able to deliver a chat box function, Um, in the in the US, for example, one of our partners, Smartronix, was able to automate the welfare and social care systems for a number of different states to the point now where 90 plus percent of those calls get initially handled, satisfied using a chat bots, which frees up agents the deal, you know, with the more difficult inbound calls that they get. >>I gotta ask you, where do we go from here? What's next for these organizations? Post Covad World. You know, if we're sitting at a cocktail party was sitting down having dinner or where he talking remotely here, how would you? How would you explain to me what's what's next? Where do we go from here? And how do organizations take that next post co vid recovery and growth? What's your take? >>And John? I think that's a fantastic question to ask. Let me tell you what we learn from our customers every day because we see them try and do new things. If I had to take my sort of crystal ball, I think we're in version one of figuring out How do we work in this new environment? I think there's a couple of key things that we're going to see. Number one. Um, resilience and continuity of service is not gonna be optional. Everybody is coming to expect that government care, not for profits. Education is going to be able to seamlessly continue to deliver the core services irrespective of these world events or emergencies on B C customers. Now you know, really getting that right. It used to take. You talked about it? Um, heck, you couldn't get a system up and running in 19 days. You'd be lucky if you cut a purchase order in 19 days and citizens and constituents that aren't going to accept that anymore, right? That's one big, uh, change that I think is with us. And we'll keep on driving cloud adoption. I think the next one is how do we start putting the pieces together in ways that make some of this invisible and an example? Um, you know, kind of starts with that with that example in the US with partner that was building systems to help, uh, welfare and social care call centers operate smoother. But if you think about the range of AWS services and the building blocks that customers have, we'll find customers starting to create that virtual experience in aversion to dot away where they tie the contact center into chat box and into transcription. Like, for instance, being able to have a conversation with the parents and using comprehend medical actually get a medically accurate transcription. So the doctor can focus on that patient interaction and not on actually data captured, right, and then if that patient asks. Well, g Doc, could you give me more information about, you know, X y z, uh, medication, or about what a course of treatment sounds like? Instead of tying up the doctors time, you could go and use a tool like Amazon Polly to then go text to speech and give all of that further rich information to that citizen. Um e think some of them things. Same scenarios, right? How do we go from this? This very fast version one dot response to a a mawr immersive, less tech evident capability that strings these things together that to meet kind of unique use cases or unique needs. >>Yeah, I think that's totally right. I think you know the 19 days. Yeah, I'm blown away by that. But I think you know, we thought about agility. That was a cloud term. Being more agile with your code business. Agility has come on the scene and then with business agility you have I call I call business latency. Andi, you went from years to months, months, two days. And I think now, as you get into the decks versions, it's days, two hours, hours, two minutes, hours two seconds Because when you look at the scale of the cloud some of things we were talking what's going on? Space force and globally around with space Leighton See, technically and business late and see this is the new dynamic and it's gonna be automation. Ai these air. This is the new reality. I think co vid points that out. Uh, what's your reaction to that? And give a final message to the AWS international community out there on on how to get through this and what you guys are doing? >>Yeah, John, I think your observation is you know that increasingly, uh, there needs to be a connectedness between the services that thes public sector customers deliver on dso Um, that connectedness can be in terms of making sure that a citizen who eyes on their life journey doesn't need to continuously explain to government where they're at. But rather, government learns how to create secure, scalable data stores so that so that they understand the journey of the citizen and can provide help through that journey. Eso it becomes mawr citizen centric. I think another example is in the entire healthcare arena where what we have found is that the ability thio to securely collaborate on very complex problems and complex data sets? Uh, like like genomes, um is increasingly important on DSO. I think what you'll find is you'll find we're seeing it today, right? With customers like, uh, Genomics England and the UK Bio Bank were there, in fact, creating these secure collaboration spaces so that the best researchers can work against these very important data sets in a secure, yet trusted collaboration environment. So I think we're seeing much more of that on I would say The third thing that we're probably learning from our customers is just how important that skills and workforce pieces. Um, with the accelerated pace, we continue to see pressure on smart skills, and resource is that our customers need. Fortunately, we've got a great global partner ecosystem, Um, but you'll see us continuing to push that forward as a zone agenda that will help customers with eso. I guess my parting comment would be how could it not be? I hope that the customers that attend the summit are from all over the world. I hope they find something that's useful to them in pursuing their mission and in their journey to the cloud. And John, I just This is always a pleasure to join the Cube. Thanks very much for the time today. Thank >>you, Max. Great. Call out. Just I'll call it out. One more time to amplify the learnings in the workforce development starting younger and younger. The path to get proficiency is quickly. You could be a cloud computing cybersecurity application, modern application development, all hot areas. Uh, the new playbook is cloud. It's all there online. And, of course, Max. Global footprint with the regions, the world has changed, and it's gonna be pretty busy. Time for you. We'll be covering it. Thanks for coming on. >>That's great. Thanks, John. >>Okay, I'm John. Free with the Cube. You're watching any of US? Public sector summit, The international online event. I'm John. Hard to keep your host. Thank you for watching

>> Narrator: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is theCUBE conversation. >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE, we're in our Palo Alto studios, the COVID crisis continues. Luckily we've got the ability to interview guests from remote and so we're excited to have this next guest. There's a lot of activity going on around equality and gender diversity, Black Lives Matter, and it feels like it really does feel like there's kind of a step function in moving this along. And there's a lot of groups out there that are trying to take a very active role, and one of the things they're trying to do is help women get on more corporate board seats, more representation, and we're really excited to have our next guest. Who's really taking a slightly different approach, a new approach to this, and we're happy to be joined by Rita Scroggin. She is the founder of FirstBoard.io, and she's also the Practice Director, Executive Group at Triad Group. So Rita, great to see you. >> Thank you very much, Jeff, for having me, I'm super excited to be here and to share the story about FirstBoard.io, what we're doing and how hopefully that will change the world just a little bit. >> That's great. Well, the way that this came about is I was on LinkedIn, I'm on LinkedIn all the time, and all of a sudden this big picture hit my feed and a ton of familiar faces. I think that's what it is four by eight. And I see Abby Kearns, Dao Jensen, Eve Maler, Wendy Perilli, Jocelyn is in there Syamla in there. And I thought, wow, I know a bunch of these women, and I'm always happy to promote the women in theCUBE alumni. And I reached out and I think it was Wendy said, "Hey, this is... She said, "I'm a founding member of this thing called FirstBoard.io. And I (indistinct) and she said, we got to talk to Rita. So it was great to meet you. And this is a new organization. I think you said you started at the very beginning of this year. >> Yeah. >> Why? Let's get kind of to the origin story. >> Yeah. >> What gave you the idea? Why did you think that this was something that needed to be done? And what caused you to actually take the leap of faith and start FirstBoard? >> Yeah, very good question. So in the fall of 2019, I did an event in partnership with K&L Gates and it was about how to get on board, and it wasn't gender specific, but I invited a lot of women from my network, and through K&L Gates, there was a speaker on the panel, Cheryl Bolton, who is now a supporter of FirstBoard.io. And we spoke after the panel discussion, so I was the moderator, and she said, "Do you place people or women specifically, "on private company boards? I said, I do now let's have a conversation about that. So we talked some more and we kind of felt like there's really a need for companies to diversify their boards, particularly private tech companies. And so then I thought about more about the idea. I reached out to a few women in my network and I said, hey, I have this idea. I'm thinking about starting an initiative around this topic, would you be interested in being part of it? And a lot of the women who I reached out to said, I'd love the idea, I would love to get involved. So that was really the origin, then we met, we had a little sort of social get together in, I think it was early December in Palo Alto. And then we said, let's launch officially in January, which we did. So in January we had our first and only in-person meeting, the idea initially was that we would meet every quarter in person. So it would be very localized to Silicon Valley and then COVID happened and everything changed. And we are now meeting via Zoom every six to eight weeks. We have members who are in different locations, most of our members are on Silicon Valley, but we also have a member in New York, in Seattle, in Dallas, and I might forget a location, but we're a little bit more distributed right now. And so that is where we are today. >> So you've done it a little bit different. You've got this group of women, there's 32 women in that picture, the founding members. And so you're taking almost like a cohort approach, a group approach. Why that approach? What did you see that wanted you to go that way, versus doing individual searches for individual companies, looking for individual kind of board members. Why the group approach? What type of dynamic does that introduce? How do the women leverage one another inside of this structure? >> Yeah, that's a good question. That's really the idea. The idea is that we work together collaboratively and that we leverage each other's networks. We raise each other's platform. I might know 10 or 15 or whatever, decision makers let's say VCs, CEOs, but the next member might know an equal number or more or less. So what I was thinking is if we leverage each other's network, we exponentially grow our network and we exponentially grow our visibility. So our focus right now is to really raise the profile of FirstBoard.io and the profile of each member of the group. So it it's fundamentally different, 'cause we're working together, kind of almost like a company that can accelerate where if we have a success, it's everybody's success. Because it raises the profile of everybody else. >> Right. >> So that's the idea, which is different than a networking organization, where you are an unknown member. And we're trying to make this in a different way. >> Right, right. And is the goal, within all the women that have joined, the founding members for all of them to get on a board, I mean, is that all of them are >> That's the goal. qualified people to be on a proper board. >> Yeah, that is the goal, that's the idea, we may not accomplish that in the first round because this is a problem that's been going on for a long time, but we're getting close to our first board placement. So that's I think initial great success. And we're working on a number of initiatives right now to raise the profile. We're doing a video interview with all our supporters. We are creating a campaign, how to reach out to CEOs and VCs. So we're working on a number of things right now behind the background to really target our audience, and our audience is specific to the tech world. So we're focusing really on private tech companies and we're focusing on our decision makers within those organizations. So whether it's the investor, the private equity, growth equity, or venture capital community, or the CEO or other board members for that matter, who may be aware that there's an opening and we're trying to tap into those as well. >> Right, right. So you've mentioned Silicon Valley, VCs and private equity a couple of times. So is the focus more in kind of that ecosystem that we're familiar with here in Silicon Valley with more private, kind of private and growth opportunities, or are you also just fully looking for large, regular public companies as well? >> We wouldn't turn down a public company opportunity, but none of our members have been on a board so far. And I think it's probably more realistic that, the first board position might be at a private tech company where the operating experience is particularly valuable. So that's our primary focus in terms of reaching out of the old But if a public company would come our way and say, we absolutely would love to talk to some of your members, of course we wouldn't turn that down. >> Jeff: Right. >> But actively we are going after private tech companies, and they can be located anywhere, so it's not specific this to Silicon Valley, of course a lot of tech companies are clustered there or here, but it could also be company in New York, or Boston, or wherever, but the focus is really on tech versus a broader focus of any kind of company. >> Right, right. So when you're working with these women who've never been on a board, what do you find is kind of the biggest gap that they need to fill, whether that's a real gap or perceived gap in their either skillsets or experience or whatever, to kind of make the jump and get into one of these board seats. Is it in any particular skill, any particular kind of point of view, what are the types of things that you do as a group to help them be better received, I guess, for the opportunities? >> Yeah. What we don't do is we don't really a training program or prep here. There are other organizations who do that, I think we do a very, very good job. Some of our members are part of other organizations as well. So what we're thinking more is the company oftentimes has, in a certain growth stage, has a gap in some form. And in looking at board opportunities, I think it's important to identify where's that gap, maybe it's go to market, or maybe it is a certain technical expertise, and match them up with the experience of our founding members. So we don't have a program to prepare women, we're more focused on... Okay, we're assuming you're prepared, that might be various degrees, and we're just trying to match kind of the operating expertise to the gap on a fully independent board member at any given company. >> Right, right I think we talked before we turned on the cameras, the three things you said you focus on really is, is operational expertise, skill experience, as well as domain expertise. >> Yeah. >> And so you're really trying to kind of map against a gap that the company has against a skillset that one of the members has. >> Yeah. So far I've sort of facilitated three different board opportunities and two of them, what they had in common, that the company was looking for somebody who really had domain expertise with the audience they were looking at, and who understood the buyer, and who had deep expertise in what to market strategies, developing them. So that's one example, right. And the other company, the third one was looking for somebody who had connections in the space who really understood that particular domain. And so it all depends, and I think it also depends on what stage the company's in. And I think the further along the company is, the more it's about governance and regulations. And earlier on, it's really filling a certain gap on the leadership team. >> Right. >> In the private equity world is also very interesting to us because oftentimes there's a timeline and there are certain growth objectives the company wants to reach. And that's a great opportunity, I think, for FirstBoard to bring in a founding member with that particular operating expertise. >> Right, right. So I'm curious, that's a great segue into kind of the customer side, if you will, the people that are looking for board members. Have you seen over the last several months or years, I'll open it up, kind of a shift in terms of people a, just kind of accepting that there are going to be more women and people of color on the board, but also more of kind of an active search and a more kind of progressive goal to make sure that they do increase the diversity on their boards, whether that be for women or people of color or whatever, just to bring more diversity. Have you seen a shift in your customer base, in terms of they're really focused on prioritization on that? >> Well, I think it's certainly on people's mind and I think now more so than ever with the recent changes and sort of uprising of Black Lives Matter, but I wouldn't say that has really transferred over into real meaningful diversity on boards. I think we still have a long, long way to go, and there's an organization, Him For Her, and I think it was the Calyx Management Institute, they did a study last year and they found that privately, heavily funded companies, 60% of those don't have a single woman on the board. And I think women in general held about 7% of board seats at these companies. So I think there's still a long way to go, but I think it's very important that in the future, a larger proportion of the population is reflected in the boards. Right? So whether it's women, women of color, people of color, so everybody should be part of the leadership team on the board level and on the leadership level. And I think that has become certainly more of a topic, I think, especially for large companies. And I think startups are now recognizing that it's important for them too, especially if they want to be perceived as a company, which has fair and equal values. >> Right. Right. So given that kind of landscape, if you will, what are kind of the expectations that you have with this founding member group? And I presume there'll be other groups in the future once these people all find a great board seat and are doing their thing, kind of, is it a really tough road ahead? Do you see that it's really not that tough on maybe in the macro level, but on the micro level there are some real opportunities, how are you as a group of 32 founding members trying to take this Hill, if you will, against pretty tough odds actually. >> But I think we're going to take it one step at a time. We already did a press release, we have a website, we have some visibility on LinkedIn and we already have been able to curate three different board conversations. So I think step by step, I think we will become more visible. I think we will be more known. We will have more opportunities to introduce founding members, this current cohort and future cohorts. And through that, I think we will make progress. So I'm very optimistic that we can make a difference, that we can get more women on boards. And once the founding members have joined a board, the plan is to launch a group where basically we create a peer group, which will then mentor and support the next cohort. And we also have an amazing group of supporters and partners already. We have Steve Singh from Madrona Ventures. We have Rohini from NGP Capital, and we're always looking for more partners and supporters. I'm not going list everybody right now, but I'm very proud about that we have partners and supporters who bought into the mission and who are helping us accomplish the mission. So I feel very optimistic that we will be able to move the needle. >> Jeff: Yeah. >> It might be at slower pace, but it was still the making a difference. >> Right. Right. Well, the hundredth anniversary of women getting the vote is coming up here in a couple of weeks. Right. And that took a long time to get done, So this stuff it does not happen easily. It does not happen overnight. But I would think certainly too with the increasing number of women in VC roles, as partners, and are also getting on board seats that hopefully that the things are starting to fall in the right direction. And hopefully with each progressive placement is a little bit easier than the one before. So Rita it's great to meet you, everyone I talked to you about you is so excited about the work that you're doing and what you're doing with FirstBoard. >> Thank you. >> I want to give you kind of the last word before we sign off, how should people learn more? How can people support the cause? How should people get involved, so that they can move the needle. >> That's great. Thank you. Get in touch with us on, if you go to the website FirstBoard.io, there is a way to partner with us, there's a link to partner with us, there's a link if you are interested in joining the future cohort. Please contact me and I will respond. And we would love to talk to companies, who are thinking about diversifying their board, we would love to talk to VCs for whom this is important. So please get in touch, and we'll figure out how to change the world together. >> Right And, oh by the way, most studies show you get better business outcomes, right. With diversity of opinion, diversity of points of view. So it's not only the right thing to do, it's also very good business. >> And I think the next decade we are ready for change. I think the society, I think is ready for change. And I think how companies run and are operated, I think people are ready for a change too. So I think the timing is really, really right. And I think we can make it happen. >> Great. Well, Rita, thank you again for taking a few minutes >> Thank you >> and telling your story and joining us on theCUBE. >> Thank you very much. It was pressure of Jeff and I look forward to talk again. >> Yeah. Maybe in person after we get through all this COVID madness. >> Maybe in person, yeah. >> All right. Well, thanks again, Rita. >> Rita: Thank you very much. >> All right She's Rita, I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. (soft music)

(upbeat electronic music) >> Narrator: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. >> Okay, hello everyone. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. We're here with Meet the Analysts segment Sunday morning. We've got everyone around the world here to discuss a bit of the news around the EU killing the privacy deal, striking it down, among other topics around, you know, data privacy and global commerce. We got great guests here, Ray Wang, CEO of Constellation Research. Bill Mew, founder and CEO of Cyber Crisis Management from the Firm Crisis Team. And JD, CEO of Spearhead Management. JD, I can let you say your name because I really can't pronounce it. How do I (laughs) pronounce it, doctor? >> I wouldn't even try it unless you are Dutch, otherwise it will seriously hurt your throat. (Ray laughing) So, JD works perfect for me. >> Doctor Drooghaag. >> And Sarbjeet Johal, who's obviously an influencer, a cloud awesome native expert. Great, guys. Great to have you on, appreciate it, thanks for comin' on. And Bill, thank you for initiating this, I appreciate all your tweets. >> Happy Sunday. (Bill laughing) >> You guys have been really tweeting up a storm, I want to get everyone together, kind of as an analyst, Meet the Analyst segment. Let's go through with it. The news is the EU and U.S. Privacy Shield for data struck down by the court, that's the BBC headline. Variety of news, different perspectives, you've got an American perspective and you've got an international perspective. Bill, we'll start with you. What does this news mean? I mean, basically half the people in the world probably don't know what the Privacy Shield means, so why is this ruling so important, and why should it be discussed? >> Well, thanks to sharing between Europe and America, it's based on a two-way promise that when data goes from Europe to America, the Americans promise to respect our privacy, and when data goes form America to Europe, the Europeans promise to respect the American privacy. Unfortunately, there are big cultural differences between the two blocks. The Europeans have a massive orientation around privacy as a human right. And in the U.S., there's somewhat more of a prioritization on national security, and therefore for some time there's been a mismatch here, and it could be argued that the Americans haven't been living up to their promise because they've had various different laws, and look how much talk about FISA and the Cloud Act that actually contravene European privacy and are incompatible with the promise Americans have given. That promise, first of all, was in the form of a treaty called Safe Harbor. This went to court and was struck down. It was replaced by Privacy Shield, which was pretty much the same thing really, and that has recently been to the court as well, and that has been struck down. There now is no other means of legally sharing data between Europe and America other than what are being called standard contractual clauses. This isn't a broad treaty between two nations, these are drawn by each individual country. But also in the ruling, they said that standard contractual clauses could not be used by any companies that were subject to mass surveillance. And actually in the U.S., the FISA courts enforce a level of mass surveillance through all of the major IT firms, of all major U.S. telcos, cloud firms, or indeed, social media firms. So, this means that for all of the companies out there and their clients, business should be carrying on as usual apart from if you're one of those major U.S. IT firms, or one of their clients. >> So, why did this come about? Was there like a major incident? Why now, was it in the court, stuck in the courts? Were people bitchin' and moanin' about it? Why did this go down, what's the real issue? >> For those of us who have been following this attentively, things have been getting more and more precarious for a number of years now. We've had a situation where there are different measures being taken in the U.S., that have continued to erode the different protections that there were for Europeans. FISA is an example that I've given, and that is the sort of secret courts and secret warrants that are issued to seize data without anyone's knowledge. There's the Cloud Act, which is a sort of extrajudicial law that means that warrants can be served in America to U.S. organizations, and they have to hand over data wherever that data resides, anywhere in the world. So, data could exist on a European server, if it was under the control of an American company, they'd have to hand that over. So, whilst FISA is in direct conflict with the promises that the Americans made, things like the Cloud Act are not only in controversion with the promise they've made, there's conflicting law here, because if you're a U.S. subsidiary of a big U.S. firm, and you're based in Europe, who do you obey, the European law that says you can't hand it over because of GDPR, or the American laws that says they've got extrajudicial control, and that you've got to hand it over. So, it's made things a complete mess. And to say has this stuff, hasn't really happened? No, there's been a gradual erosion, and this has been going through the courts for a number of years. And many of us have seen it coming, and now it just hit us. >> So, if I get you right in what you're saying, it's basically all this mishmash of different laws, and there's no coherency, and consistency, is that the core issue? >> On the European side you could argue there's quite a lot of consistency, because we uphold people's privacy, in theory. But there have been incidents which we could talk about with that, but in theory, we hold your rights dear, and also the rights of Europeans, so everyone's data should be safe here from the sort of mass surveillance we're seeing. In the U.S., there's more of a direct conflict between everything, including there's been a, in his first week in the White House, Donald Trump signed an executive order saying that the Privacy Act in the U.S., which had been the main protection for people in the U.S., no longer applied to non-U.S. citizens. Which was, if you wanted try and cause a storm, and if you wanted to try and undermine the treaty, there's no better way of doing it than that. >> A lot of ways, Ray, I mean simplify this for me, because I'm a startup, I'm hustlin', or I'm a big company, I don't even know who runs the servers anymore, and I've got data stored in multiple clouds, I got in regions, and Oracle just announced more regions, you got Amazon, a gazillion regions, I could be on-premise. I mean bottom line, what is this about? I mean, and -- >> Bill's right, I mean when Max Schrems, the Austrian. Bill's right, when Max Schrems the Austrian activist actually filed his case against Facebook for where data was being stored, data residency wasn't as popular. And you know, what it means for companies that are in the cloud is that you have to make sure your data's being stored in the region, and following those specific region rules, you can't skirt those rules anymore. And I think the cloud companies know that this has been coming for some time, and that's why there's been announced in a lot of regions, a lot of areas that are actually happening, so I think that's the important part. But going back to Bill's earlier point, which is important, is America is basically the Canary Islands of privacy, right? Privacy is there, but it isn't there in a very, very explicit sense, and I think we've been skirting the rules for quite some time, because a lot of our economy depends on that data, and the marketing of the data. And so we often confuse privacy with consent, and also with value exchange, and I think that's part of the problem of what's going on here. Companies that have been building their business models on free data, free private data, free personally identifiable data information are the ones that are at risk! And I think that's what's going on here. >> It's the classic Facebook issue, you're the product, and the data is your product. Well, I want to get into what this means, 'cause my personal take away, not knowing the specifics, and just following say, cyber security for instance, one of the tenets there is that data sharing is an invaluable, important ethos in the community. Now, everyone has their own privacy, or security data, they don't want to let everyone know about their exploits but, but it's well known in the security world that sharing data with each other, different companies and countries is actually a good thing. So, the question that comes in my mind, is this really about data sharing or data privacy, or both? >> I think it's about both. And actually what the ruling is saying here is, all we're asking from the European side is please stop spying on us and please give us a level of equal protection that you give to your own citizens. Because data comes from America to Europe, whatever that data belongs to, a U.S. citizen or a European citizen, it's given equal protection. It is only if data goes in the other direction, where you have secret courts, secret warrants, seizure of data on this massive scale, and also a level of lack of equivalence that has been imposed. And we're just asking that once you've sorted out a few of those things, we'd say everything's back on the table, away we go again! >> Why don't we merge the EU with the United States? Wouldn't that solve the problem? (Bill laughing) >> We just left Europe! (laughs heartily) >> Actually I always -- >> A hostile takeover of the UK maybe, the 52nd state. (Bill laughing loudly) >> I always pick on Bill, like Bill, you got all screaming loud and clear about all these concerns, but UKs trying to get out of that economic union. It is a union at the end of the day, and I think the problem is the institutional mismatch between the EU and U.S., U.S. is old democracy, bigger country, population wise, bigger economy. Whereas Europe is several countries trying to put together, band together as one entity, and the institutions are new, like you know, they're 15 years old, right? They're maturing. I think that's where the big mismatch is and -- >> Well, Ray, I want to get your thoughts on this, Ray wrote a book, I forget what year it was, this digital disruption, basically it was digital transformation before it was actually a trend. I mean to me it's like, do you do the process first and then figure out where the value extraction is, and this may be a Silicon Valley or an American thing, but go create value, then figure out how to create process or understand regulations. So, if data and entrepreneurship is going to be a new modern era of value, why wouldn't we want to create a rule based system that's open and enabling, and not restrictive? >> So, that's a great point, right? And the innovation culture means you go do it first, and you figure out the rules later, and that's been a very American way of getting things done, and very Silicon Valley in our perspective, not everyone, but I think in general that's kind of the trend. I think the challenge here is that we are trading privacy for security, privacy for convenience, privacy for personalization, right? And on the security level, it's a very different conversation than what it is on the consumer end, you know, personalization side. On the security side I think most Americans are okay with a little bit of "spying," at least on your own side, you know, to keep the country safe. We're not okay with a China level type of spying, which we're not sure exactly what that means or what's enforceable in the courts. We look like China to the Europeans in the way we treat privacy, and I think that's the perspective we need to understand because Europeans are very explicit about how privacy is being protected. And so this really comes back to a point where we actually have to get to a consent model on privacy, as to knowing what data is being shared, you have the right to say no, and when you have the right to say no. And then if you have a value exchange on that data, then it's really like sometimes it's monetary, sometimes it's non-monetary, sometimes there's other areas around consensus where you can actually put that into place. And I think that's what's missing at this point, saying, you know, "Do we pay for your data? Do we explicitly get your consent first before we use it?" And we haven't had that in place, and I think that's where we're headed towards. And you know sometimes we actually say privacy should be a human right, it is in the UN Charter, but we haven't figured out how to enforce it or talk about it in the digital age. And so I think that's the challenge. >> Okay, people, until they lose it, they don't really understand what it means. I mean, look at Americans. I have to say that we're idiots on this front, (Bill chuckling) but you know, the thing is most people don't even understand how much value's getting sucked out of their digital exhaust. Like, our kids, TikTok and whatnot. So I mean, I get that, I think there's some, there's going to be blow back for America for sure. I just worry it's going to increase the cost of doing business, and take away from the innovation for citizen value, the people, because at the end of the day, it's for the people right? I mean, at the end of the day it's like, what's my privacy mean if I lose value? >> Even before we start talking about the value of the data and the innovation that we can do through data use, you have to understand the European perspective here. For the European there's a level of double standards and an erosion of trust. There's double standards in the fact that in California you have new privacy regulations that are slightly different to GDPR, but they're very much GDPR like. And if the boot was on the other foot, to say if we were spying on Californians and looking at their personal data, and contravening CCPA, the Californians would be up in arms! Likewise if we having promised to have a level of equality, had enacted a local rule in Europe that said that when data from America's over here, actually the privacy of Americans counts for nothing, we're only going to prioritize the privacy of Europeans. Again, the Americans would be up in arms! And therefore you can see that there are real double standards here that are a massive issue, and until those addressed, we're not going to trust the Americans. And likewise, the very fact that on a number of occasions Americans have signed up to treaties and promised to protect our data as they did with Safe Harbor, as they did with Privacy Shield, and then have blatantly, blatantly failed to do so means that actually to get back to even a level playing field, where we were, you have a great deal of trust to overcome! And the thing from the perspective of the big IT firms, they've seen this coming for a long time, as Ray was saying, and they sought to try and have a presence in Europe and other things. But the way this ruling has gone is that, I'm sorry, that isn't going to be sufficient! These big IT firms based in the U.S. that have been happy to hand over data, well some of them maybe more happy than others, but they all need to hand over data to the NSA or the CIA. They've been doing this for some time now without actually respecting this data privacy agreement that has existed between the two trading blocks. And now they've been called out, and the position now is that the U.S. is no longer trusted, and neither are any of these large American technology firms. And until the snooping stops and equality is introduced, they can now no longer, even from their European operations, they can no longer use standard contractual clauses to transfer data, which is going to be a massive restriction on their business. And if they had any sense, they'd be lobbying very, very hard right now to the Senate, to the House, to try and persuade U.S. lawmakers actually to stick to some these treaties! To stop introducing really mad laws that ride roughshod over other people's privacy, and have a certain amount of respect. >> Let's let JD weigh in, 'cause he just got in, sorry on the video, I made him back on a host 'cause he dropped off. Just, Bill, real quick, I mean I think it's like when, you know, I go to Europe there's the line for Americans, there's the line for EU. Or EU and everybody else. I mean we might be there, but ultimately this has to be solved. So, JD, I want to let you weigh in, Germany has been at the beginning forefront of privacy, and they've been hardcore, and how's this all playing out in your perspective? >> Well, the first thing that we have to understand is that in Germany, there is a very strong law for regulation. Germans panic as soon as they know regulation, so they need to understand what am I allowed to do, and what am I not allowed to do. And they expect the same from the others. For the record I'm not German, but I live in Germany for some 20 years, so I got a bit of a feeling for them. And that sense of need for regulation has spread very fast throughout the European Union, because most of the European member states of the European Union consider this, that it makes sense, and then we found that Britain had already a very good framework for privacy, so GDPR itself is very largely based on what the United Kingdom already had in place with their privacy act. Moving forward, we try to find agreement and consensus with other countries, especially the United States because that's where most of the tech providers are, only to find out, and that is where it started to go really, really bad, 2014, when the mass production by Edward Snowden came out, to find out it's not data from citizens, it's surveillance programs which include companies. I joined a purchasing conference a few weeks ago where the purchase of a large European multinational, where the purchasing director explicitly stated that usage of U.S. based tech providers for sensitive data is prohibited as a result of them finding out that they have been under surveillance. So, it's not just the citizens, there's mass -- >> There you have it, guys! We did trust you! We did have agreements there that you could have abided by, but you chose not to, you chose to abuse our trust! And you're now in a position where you are no longer trusted, and unless you can lobby your own elected representatives to actually recreate a level playing field, we're not going to continue trusting you. >> So, I think really I -- >> Well I mean that, you know, innovation has to come from somewhere, and you know, has to come from America if that's the case, you guys have to get on board, right? Is that what it -- >> Innovation without trust? >> Is that the perspective? >> I don't think it's a country thing, I mean like, it's not you or them, I think everybody -- >> I'm just bustin' Bill's chops there. >> No, but I think everybody, everybody is looking for what the privacy rules are, and that's important. And you can have that innovation with consent, and I think that's really where we're going to get to. And this is why I keep pushing that issue. I mean, privacy should be a fundamental right, and how you get paid for that privacy is interesting, or how you get compensated for that privacy if you know what the explicit value exchange is. What you're talking about here is the surveillance that's going on by companies, which shouldn't be happening, right? That shouldn't be happening at the company level. At the government level I can understand that that is happening, and I think those are treaties that the governments have to agree upon as to how much they're going to impinge on our personal privacy for the trade off for security, and I don't think they've had those discussions either. Or they decided and didn't tell any of their citizens, and I think that's probably more likely the case. >> I mean, I think what's happening here, Bill, you guys were pointing out, and Ray, you articulated there on the other side, and my kind of colorful joke aside, is that we're living a first generation modern sociology problem. I mean, this is a policy challenge that extends across multiple industries, cyber security, citizen's rights, geopolitical. I mean when would look, and even when we were doing CUBE events overseas in Europe, in North American companies we'd call it abroad, we'd just recycle the American program, and we found there's so much localization value. So, Ray, this is the digital disruption, it's the virtualization of physical for digital worlds, and it's a lot of network theory, which is computer science, a lot of sociology. This is a modern challenge, and I don't think it so much has a silver bullet, it's just that we need smart people working on this. That's my take away! >> I think we can describe the ideal endpoint being somewhere we have meaningful protection alongside the maximization of economic and social value through innovation. So, that should be what we would all agree would be the ideal endpoint. But we need both, we need meaningful protection, and we need the maximization of economic and social value through innovation! >> Can I add another axis? Another axis, security as well. >> Well, I could -- >> I put meaningful protection as becoming both security and privacy. >> Well, I'll speak for the American perspective here, and I won't speak, 'cause I'm not the President of the United States, but I will say as someone who's been from Silicon Valley and the east coast as a technical person, not a political person, our lawmakers are idiots when it comes to tech, just generally. (Ray laughing) They're not really -- (Bill laughing loudly) >> They really don't understand. They really don't understand the tech at all! >> So, the problem is -- >> I'm not claiming ours are a great deal better. (laughs) >> Well, this is why I think this is a modern problem. Like, the young people I talk to are like, "Why do we have this rules?" They're all lawyers that got into these positions of Congress on the American side, and so with the American JEDI Contract you guys have been following very closely is, it's been like the old school Oracle, IBM, and then Amazon is leading with an innovative solution, and Microsoft has come in and re-pivoted. And so what you have is a fight for the digital future of citizenship! And I think what's happening is that we're in a massive societal transition, where the people in charge don't know what the hell they're talkin' about, technically. And they don't know who to tap to solve the problems, or even shape or frame the problems. Now, there's pockets of people that are workin' on it, but to me as someone who looks at this saying, it's a pretty simple solution, no one's ever seen this before. So, there's a metaphor you can draw, but it's a completely different problem space because it's, this is all digital, data's involved. >> We've got a lobbyists out there, and we've got some tech firms spending an enormous amount of lobbying. If those lobbyists aren't trying to steer their representatives in the right direction to come up with law that aren't going to massively undermine trade and data sharing between Europe and America, then they're making a big mistake, because we got here through some really dumb lawmaking in the U.S., I mean, there are none of the laws in Europe that are a problem here. 'Cause GDPR isn't a great difference, a great deal different from some of the laws that we have already in California and elsewhere. >> Bill, Bill. >> The laws that are at issue here -- >> Bill, Bill! You have to like, back up a little bit from that rhetoric that EU is perfect and U.S. is not, that's not true actually. >> I'm not saying we're perfect! >> No, no, you say that all the time. >> But I'm saying there's a massive lack of innovation. Yeah, yeah. >> I don't, I've never said it! >> Arm wrestle! >> Yes, yes. >> When I'm being critical of some of the dumb laws in the U.S, (Sarbjeet laughing) I'm not saying Europe is perfect. What we're trying to say is that in this particular instance, I said there was an equal balance here between meaningful protection and the maximization of economic and social value. On the meaningful protection side, America's got it very wrong in terms of the meaningful protection it provides to civil European data. On the maximization of economic and social value, I think Europe's got it wrong. I think there are a lot of things we could do in Europe to actually have far more innovation. >> Yeah. >> It's a cultural issue. The Germans want rules, that's what they crave for. America's the other way, we don't want rules, I mean, pretty much is a rebel society. And that's kind of the ethos of most tech companies. But I think you know, to me the media, there's two things that go on with this tech business. The company's themselves have to be checked by say, government, and I believe in not a lot of regulation, but enough to check the power of bad actors. Media so called "checking power", both of these major roles, they don't really know what they're talking about, and this is back to the education piece. The people who are in the media so called "checking power" and the government checking power assume that the companies are bad. Right, so yeah, because eight out of ten companies like Amazon, actually try to do good things. If you don't know what good is, you don't really, (laughs) you know, you're in the wrong game. So, I think media and government have a huge education opportunity to look at this because they don't even know what they're measuring. >> I support the level of innovation -- >> I think we're unreeling from the globalization. Like, we are undoing the globalization, and that these are the side effects, these conflicts are a side effect of that. >> Yeah, so all I'm saying is I support the focus on innovation in America, and that has driven an enormous amount of wealth and value. What I'm questioning here is do you really need to spy on us, your allies, in order to help that innovation? And I'm starting to, I mean, do you need mass surveillance of your allies? I mean, I can see you may want to have some surveillance of people who are a threat to you, but wait, guys, we're meant to be on your side, and you haven't been treating our privacy with a great deal of respect! >> You know, Saudi Arabia was our ally. You know, 9/11 happened because of them, their people, right? There is no ally here, and there is no enemy, in a way. We don't know where the rogue actors are sitting, like they don't know, they can be within the walls -- >> It's well understood I think, I agree, sorry. it's well understood that nation states are enabling terrorist groups to take out cyber attacks. That's well known, the source enables it. So, I think there's the privacy versus -- >> I'm not sure it's true in your case that it's Europeans that's doing this though. >> No, no, well you know, they share -- >> I'm a former officer in the Royal Navy, I've stood shoulder to shoulder with my U.S. counterparts. I put my life on the line on NATO exercises in real war zones, and I'm now a disabled ex-serviceman as a result of that. I mean, if I put my line on the line shoulder to shoulder with Americans, why is my privacy not respected? >> Hold on -- >> I feel it's, I was going to say actually that it's not that, like even the U.S., right? Part of the spying internally is we have internal actors that are behaving poorly. >> Yeah. >> Right, we have Marxist organizations posing as, you know, whatever it is, I'll leave it at that. But my point being is we've got a lot of that, every country has that, every country has actors and citizens and people in the system that are destined to try to overthrow the system. And I think that's what that surveillance is about. The question is, we don't have treaties, or we didn't have your explicit agreements. And that's why I'm pushing really hard here, like, they're separating privacy versus security, which is the national security, and privacy versus us as citizens in terms of our data being basically taken over for free, being used for free. >> John: I agree with that. >> That I think we have some agreement on. I just think that our governments haven't really had that conversation about what surveillance means. Maybe someone agreed and said, "Okay, that's fine. You guys can go do that, we won't tell anybody." And that's what it feels like. And I don't think we deliberately are saying, "Hey, we wanted to spy on your citizens." I think someone said, "Hey, there's a benefit here too." Otherwise I don't think the EU would have let this happen for that long unless Max had made that case and started this ball rolling, so, and Edward Snowden and other folks. >> Yeah, and I totally support the need for security. >> I want to enter the -- >> I mean we need to, where there are domestic terrorists, we need to stop them, and we need to have local action in UK to stop it happening here, and in America to stop it happening there. But if we're doing that, there is absolutely no need for the Americans to be spying on us. And there's absolutely no need for the Americans to say that privacy applies to U.S. citizens only, and not to Europeans, these are daft, it's just daft! >> That's a fair point. I'm sure GCHQ and everyone else has this covered, I mean I'm sure they do. (laughs) >> Oh, Bill, I know, I've been involved, I've been involved, and I know for a fact the U.S. and the UK are discussing I know a company called IronNet, which is run by General Keith Alexander, funded by C5 Capital. There's a lot of collaboration, because again, they're tryin' to get their arms around how to frame it. And they all agree that sharing data for the security side is super important, right? And I think IronNet has this thing called Iron Dome, which is essentially like they're saying, hey, we'll just consistency around the rules of shared data, and we can both, everyone can have their own little data. So, I think there's recognition at the highest levels of some smart people on both countries. (laughs) "Hey, let's work together!" The issue I have is just policy, and I think there's a lot of clustering going on. Clustered here around just getting out of their own way. That's my take on that. >> Are we a PG show? Wait, are we a PG show? I just got to remember that. (laughs) (Bill laughing) >> It's the internet, there's no regulation, there's no rules! >> There's no regulation! >> The European rules or is it the American rules? (Ray laughing) >> I would like to jump back quickly to the purpose of the surveillance, and especially when mass surveillance is done under the cover of national security and terror prevention. I worked with five clients in the past decade who all have been targeted under mass surveillance, which was revealed by Edward Snowden, and when they did their own investigation, and partially was confirmed by Edward Snowden in person, they found out that their purchasing department, their engineering department, big parts of their pricing data was targeted in mass surveillance. There's no way that anyone can explain me that that has anything to do with preventing terror attacks, or finding the bad guys. That is economical espionage, you cannot call it in any other way. And that was authorized by the same legislation that authorizes the surveillance for the right purposes. I'm all for fighting terror, and anything that can help us prevent terror from happening, I would be the first person to welcome it. But I do not welcome when that regulation is abused for a lot of other things under the cover of national interest. I understand -- >> Back to the lawmakers again. And again, America's been victim to the Chinese some of the individual properties, well documented, well known in tech circles. >> Yeah, but just 'cause the Chinese have targeted you doesn't give you free right to target us. >> I'm not saying that, but its abuse of power -- >> If the U.S. can sort out a little bit of reform, in the Senate and the House, I think that would go a long way to solving the issues that Europeans have right now, and a long way to sort of reaching a far better place from which we can all innovate and cooperate. >> Here's the challenge that I see. If you want to be instrumenting everything, you need a closed society, because if you have a free country like America and the UK, a democracy, you're open. If you're open, you can't stop everything, right? So, there has to be a trust, to your point, Bill. As to me that I'm just, I just can't get my arms around that idea of complete lockdown and data surveillance because I don't think it's gettable in the United States, like it's a free world, it's like, open. It should be open. But here we've got the grids, and we've got the critical infrastructure that should be protected. So, that's one hand. I just can't get around that, 'cause once you start getting to locking down stuff and measuring everything, that's just a series of walled gardens. >> So, to JD's point on the procurement data and pricing data, I have been involved in some of those kind of operations, and I think it's financial espionage that they're looking at, financial security, trying to figure out a way to track down capital flows and what was purchased. I hope that was it in your client's case, but I think it's trying to figure out where the money flow is going, more so than trying to understand the pricing data from competitive purposes. If it is the latter, where they're stealing the competitive information on pricing, and data's getting back to a competitor, that is definitely a no-no! But if it's really to figure out where the money trail went, which is what I think most of those financial analysts are doing, especially in the CIA, or in the FBI, that's really what that probably would have been. >> Yeah, I don't think that the CIA is selling the data to your competitors, as a company, to Microsoft or to Google, they're not selling it to each other, right? They're not giving it to each other, right? So, I think the one big problem I studied with FISA is that they get the data, but how long they can keep the data and how long they can mine the data. So, they should use that data as exhaust. Means like, they use it and just throw it away. But they don't, they keep mining that data at a later date, and FISA is only good for five years. Like, I learned that every five years we revisit that, and that's what happened this time, that we renewed it for six years this time, not five, for some reason one extra year. So, I think we revisit all these laws -- >> Could be an election cycle. >> Huh? >> Could be an election cycle maybe. (laughs) >> Yes, exactly! So, we revisit all these laws with Congress and Senate here periodically just to make sure that they are up to date, and that they're not infringing on human rights, or citizen's rights, or stuff like that. >> When you say you update to check they're not conflicting with anything, did you not support that it was conflicting with Privacy Shield and some of the promises you made to Europeans? At what point did that fail to become obvious? >> It does, because there's heightened urgency. Every big incident happens, 9/11 caused a lot of new sort of like regulations and laws coming into the picture. And then the last time, that the Russian interference in our election, that created some sort of heightened urgency. Like, "We need to do something guys here, like if some country can topple our elections, right, that's not acceptable." So, yeah -- >> And what was it that your allies did that caused you to spy on us and to downgrade our privacy? >> I'm not expert on the political systems here. I think our allies are, okay, loose on their, okay, I call it village politics. Like, world is like a village. Like it's so only few countries, it's not millions of countries, right? That's how I see it, a city versus a village, and that's how I see the countries, like village politics. Like there are two camps, like there's Russia and China camp, and then there's U.S. camp on the other side. Like, we used to have Russia and U.S., two forces, big guys, and they managed the whole world balance somehow, right? Like some people with one camp, the other with the other, right? That's how they used to work. Now that Russia has gone, hold on, let me finish, let me finish. >> Yeah. >> Russia's gone, there's this void, right? And China's trying to fill the void. Chinese are not like, acting diplomatic enough to fill that void, and there's, it's all like we're on this imbalance, I believe. And then Russia becomes a rogue actor kind of in a way, that's how I see it, and then they are funding all these bad people. You see that all along, like what happened in the Middle East and all that stuff. >> You said there are different camps. We thought we were in your camp! We didn't expect to be spied on by you, or to have our rights downgraded by you. >> No, I understand but -- >> We thought we were on your side! >> But, but you have to guys to trust us also, like in a village. Let me tell you, I come from a village, that's why I use the villager as a hashtag in my twitter also. Like in village, there are usually one or two families which keep the village intact, that's our roles. >> Right. >> Like, I don't know if you have lived in a village or not -- >> Well, Bill, you're making some great statements. Where's the evidence on the surveillance, where can people find more information on this? Can you share? >> I think there's plenty of evidence, and I can send some stuff on, and I'm a little bit shocked given the awareness of the FISA Act, the Cloud Act, the fact that these things are in existence and they're not exactly unknown. And many people have been complaining about them for years. I mean, we've had Safe Harbor overturned, we've had Privacy Shield overturned, and these weren't just on a whim! >> Yeah, what does JD have in his hand? I want to know. >> The Edward Snowden book! (laughs) >> By Edward Snowden, which gives you plenty. But it wasn't enough, and it's something that we have to keep in mind, because we can always claim that whatever Edward Snowden wrote, that he made it up. Every publication by Edward Snowden is an avalanche of technical confirmation. One of the things that he described about the Cisco switches, which Bill prefers to quote every time, which is a proven case, there were bundles of researchers saying, "I told you guys!" Nobody paid attention to those researchers, and Edward Snowden was smart enough to get the mass media representation in there. But there's one thing, a question I have for Sabjeet, because in the two parties strategy, it is interesting that you always take out the European Union as part. And the European Union is a big player, and it will continue to grow. It has a growing amount of trade agreements with a growing amount of countries, and I still hope, and I think think Bill -- >> Well, I think the number of countries is reducing, you've just lost one! >> Only one. (Bill laughing loudly) Actually though, those are four countries under one kingdom, but that's another point. (Bill chortling heartily) >> Guys, final topic, 5G impact, 'cause you mentioned Cisco, couldn't help think about -- >> Let me finish please my question, John. >> Okay, go ahead. How would you the United States respond if the European Union would now legalize to spy on everybody and every company, and every governmental institution within the United States and say, "No, no, it's our privilege, we need that." How would the United States respond? >> You can try that and see economically what happens to you, that's how the village politics work, you have to listen to the mightier than you, and we are economically mightier, that's the fact. Actually it's hard to swallow fact for, even for anybody else. >> If you guys built a great app, I would use it, and surveil all you want. >> Yeah, but so this is going to be driven by the economics. (John laughing) But the -- >> That's exactly what John said. >> This is going to be driven by the economics here. The big U.S. cloud firms are got to find this ruling enormously difficult for them, and they are inevitably going to lobby for a level of reform. And I think a level of a reform is needed. Nobody on your side is actually arguing very vociferously that the Cloud Act and the discrimination against Europeans is actually a particularly good idea. The problem is that once you've done the reform, are we going to believe you when you say, "Oh, it's all good now, we've stopped it!" Because with Crypto AG scandal in Switzerland you weren't exactly honest about what you were doing. With the FISA courts, so I mean FISA secret courts, the secret warrants, how do we know and what proof can we have that you've stopped doing all these bad things? And I think one of the challenges, A, going to be the reform, and then B, got to be able to show that you actually got your act together and you're now clean. And until you can solve those two, many of your big tech companies are going to be at a competitive disadvantage, and they're going to be screaming for this reform. >> Well, I think that, you know, General Mattis said in his book about Trump and the United states, is that you need alliances, and I think your point about trust and executing together, without alliances, it really doesn't work. So, unless there's some sort of real alliance, (laughs) like understanding that there's going to be some teamwork here, (Bill laughing) I don't think it's going to go anywhere. So, otherwise it'll continue to be siloed and network based, right? So to the village point, if TikTok can become a massively successful app, and they're surveilling, so and then we have to decide that we're going to put up with that, I mean, that's not my decision, but that's what's goin' on here. It's like, what is TikTok, is it good or bad? Amazon sent out an email, and they've retracted it, that's because it went public. I guarantee you that they're talkin' about that at Amazon, like, "Why would we want infiltration by the Chinese?" And I'm speculating, I have no data, I'm just saying, you know. They email those out, then they pull it back, "Oh, we didn't mean to send that." Really, hmm? (laughs) You know, so this kind of -- >> But the TRA Balin's good, you always want to get TRA Balin out there. >> Yeah, exactly. There's some spying going on! So, this is the reality. >> So, John, you were talking about 5G, and I think you know, the role of 5G, you know, the battle between Cisco and Huawei, you just have to look at it this way, would you rather have the U.S. spy on you, or would you rather have China? And that's really your binary choice at this moment. And you know both is happening, and so the question is which one is better. Like, the one that you're in alliance with? The one that you're not in alliance with, the one that wants to bury you, and decimate your country, and steal all your secrets and then commercialize 'em? Or the one kind of does it, but doesn't really do it explicitly? So, you've got to choose. (laughs) >> It's supposed to be -- >> Or you can say no, we're going to create our own standard for 5G and kick both out, that's an option. >> It's probably not as straightforward a question as, or an answer to that question as you say, because if we were to fast-forward 50 years, I would argue that China is going to be the largest trading nation in the world. I believe that China is going to have the upper hand on many of these technologies, and therefore why would we not want to use some of their innovation, some of their technology, why would we not actually be more orientated around trading with them than we might be with the U.S.? I think the U.S. is throwing its weight around at this moment in time, but if we were to fast-forward I think looking in the longterm, if I had to put my money on Huawei or some of its competitors, I think given its level of investments in research and whatever, I think the better longterm bet is Huawei. >> No, no, actually you guys need to pick a camp. It's a village again. You have to pick a camp, you can't be with both guys. >> Global village. >> Oh, right, so we have to go with the guys that have been spying on us? >> How do you know the Chinese haven't been spying on you? (Ray and John laughing loudly) >> I think I'm very happy, you find a backdoor in the Huawei equipment and you show it to us, we'll take them to task on it. But don't start bullying us into making decisions based on what-ifs. >> I don't think I'm, I'm not qualified to represent the U.S., but what we would want to say is that if you look at the dynamics of what's going on, China, we've been studying that as well in terms of the geopolitical aspects of what happens in technology, they have to do what they're doing right now. Because in 20 years our population dynamics go like this, right? You've got the one child policy, and they won't have the ability to go out and fight for those same resources where they are, so what they're doing makes sense from a country perspective and country policy. But I think they're going to look like Japan in 20 years, right? Because the xenophobia, the lack of immigration, the lack of inside stuff coming in, an aging population. I mean, those are all factors that slow down your economy in the long run. And the lack of bringing new people in for ideas, I mean that's part of it, they're a closed system. And so I think the longterm dynamics of every closed system is that they tend to fail versus open systems. So, I'm not sure, they may have better technology along the way. But I think a lot of us are probably in the camp now thinking that we're not going to aid and abet them, in that sense to get there. >> You're competing a country with a company, I didn't say that China had necessarily everything rosy in its future, it'll be a bigger economy, and it'll be a bigger trading partner, but it's got its problems, the one child policy and the repercussions of that. But that is not one of the things, Huawei, I think Huawei's a massively unlimited company that has got a massive lead, certainly in 5G technology, and may continue to maintain a lead into 6G and beyond. >> Oh yeah, yeah, Huawei's done a great job on the 5G side, and I don't disagree with that. And they're ahead in many aspects compared to the U.S., and they're already working on the 6G technologies as well, and the roll outs have been further ahead. So, that's definitely -- >> And they've got a great backer too, the financer, the country China. Okay guys, (Ray laughing) let's wrap up the segment. Thanks for everyone's time. Final thoughts, just each of you on this core issue of the news that we discussed and the impact that was the conversation. What's the core issue? What should people think about? What's your solution? What's your opinion of how this plays out? Just final statements. We'll start with Bill, Ray, Sarbjeet and JD. >> All I'm going to ask you is stop spying on us, treat us equally, treat us like the allies that we are, and then I think we've got to a bright future together! >> John: Ray? >> I would say that Bill's right in that aspect in terms of how security agreements work, I think that we've needed to be more explicit about those. I can't represent the U.S. government, but I think the larger issue is really how do we view privacy, and how we do trade offs between security and convenience, and you know, what's required for personalization, and companies that are built on data. So, the sooner we get to those kind of rules, an understanding of what's possible, what's a consensus between different countries and companies, I think the better off we will all be a society. >> Yeah, I believe the most important kind of independence is the economic independence. Like, economically sound parties dictate the terms, that's what U.S. is doing. And the smaller countries have to live with it or pick the other bigger player, number two in this case is China. John said earlier, I think, also what JD said is the fine balance between national security and the privacy. You can't have, you have to strike that balance, because the rogue actors are sitting in your country, and across the boundaries of the countries, right? So, it's not that FISA is being fought by Europeans only. Our internal people are fighting that too, like how when you are mining our data, like what are you using it for? Like, I get concerned too, when you can use that data against me, that you have some data against me, right? So, I think it's the fine balance between security and privacy, we have to strike that. Awesome. JD? I'll include a little fake check, fact check, at the moment China is the largest economy, the European Union is the second largest economy, followed directly by the USA, it's a very small difference, and I recommend that these two big parties behind the largest economy start to collaborate and start to do that eye to eye, because if you want to balance the economical and manufacturing power of China, you cannot do that as being number two and number three. You have to join up forces, and that starts with sticking with the treaties that you signed, and that has not happened in the past, almost four years. So, let's go back to the table, let's work on rules where from both sides the rights and the privileges are properly reflected, and then do the most important thing, stick to them! >> Yep, I think that's awesome. I think I would say that these young kids in high school and college, they need to come up and solve the problems, this is going to be a new generational shift where the geopolitical landscape will change radically, you mentioned the top three there. And new alliances, new kinds of re-imagination has to be there, and from America's standpoint I'll just say that I'd like to see lawmakers have, instead of a LinkedIn handle, a GitHub handle. You know, when they all go out on campaign talk about what code they've written. So, I think having a technical background or some sort of knowledge of computer science and how the internet works with sociology and societal impact will be critical for our citizenships to advance. So, you know rather a lawyer, right so? (laughs) Maybe get some law involved in that, I mean the critical lawyers, but today most people are lawyers in American politics, but show me a GitHub handle of that congressman, that senator, I'd be impressed. So, that's what we need. >> Thanks, good night! >> Ray, you want to say something? >> I wanted to say something, because I thought the U.S. economy was 21 trillion, the EU is sittin' at about 16, and China was sitting about 14, but okay, I don't know. >> You need to do math man. >> Hey, we went over our 30 minutes time, we can do an hour with you guys, so you're still good. (laughs) >> Can't take anymore. >> No go on, get in there, go at it when you've got something to say. >> I don't think it's immaterial the exact size of the economy, I think that we're better off collaborating on even and fair terms, we are -- >> We're all better off collaborating. >> Yeah. >> Gentlemen -- >> But the collaboration has to be on equal and fair terms, you know. (laughs) >> How do you define fair, good point. Fair and balanced, you know, we've got the new -- >> We did define fair, we struck a treaty! We absolutely defined it, absolutely! >> Yeah. >> And then one side didn't stick to it. >> We will leave it right there, and we'll follow up (Bill laughing) in a later conversation. Gentlemen, you guys are good. Thank you. (relaxing electronic music)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of VM on 2020. Brought to you by IBM >>already. This is Dave Volante. We're here with a preview of VM on 2020. Danny Allen, CTO of Eve dinner, which we're face to face, man. But great to see you online. >>Great senior as well. This is the next best thing, right? >>It is. I mean, you know, VM on has been a great conference for the last several years. We've attended with you, but let's let's get into it. You know, Kobe, 19 obviously shifts tow virtual, but there's a lot of things going on. I'm sure in your business >>a >>lot of talk about business resiliency. How has the pandemic could have affected theme and how you're managing the business? >>Well, it's certainly impacted the entire industry. And actually, one of the interesting things that has happened, of course, is that used to get on an airplane in flight of the customer, shake their hand and close a deal that obviously isn't happening. Um, that's the external side of the internal side of it is you know, everyone went into an office. We have a culture especially in inside sales and support of people going dollar citizen. Obviously, we had to close them. The downside is we loose some of that model that we had in the past, But the upside the bright side of this is we've been doing fantastic impact. The numbers that we have achieved are the same as if Kobe 19 hydrant it. No, I attribute that to a few different things. One is that, >>you >>know, we have a broad spectrum of customers 375,000 across all segments across all industries. And while it's still early in the year, who knows what's going to happen? What I can say is that my business results standpoint. It's been good from a product strategy standpoint, which is where I said, Of course it's It's actually been better than good because we actually have the opportunity to focus a little bit more perhaps, than we have in the past, too. Speaking to customers and delivering on things that are harder to do when you're on airplanes all the time. >>Well, I mean, we've been reporting on the Cube. That is really a story of the haves and have nots. I mean, my take away there is he had it not been for over 19 maybe maybe the numbers would even be higher. But at the same time, though, the whole like I said, business resiliency work from home people really thinking about data protection has really come to the fore. So some of the other trends, obviously their tail winds, cloud data the whole notion of multi cloud. I'm sure we're going to hear a lot about this at VM on virtual. >>Yeah, so as you know, our objective is to be the most trusted provider of backup solutions that deliver Cloud data management. And so there's a big focus on cloud. Where we certainly think of Cloud, of course, is the Big Three hyper scaler is of AWS, Azure and Google, and you're going to hear announcements, but all three of those and products that continue to enhance our capabilities there. But it's also our partners we have in our in our virtual solutions lab. We actually have 30 partners there, but we have a huge stable, if you will, our partner ecosystem of VM Cloud service providers and we're excited that they're going to be there as well and we're highlighting some of their innovations. >>Yeah. I mean, we're dropping a breaking analysis this week on Cloud all three of those cloud suppliers. As you mentioned, >>we >>have a lot of momentum behind, you know, their businesses. Right now it's the cloud. Is that pandemics? Pandemics. But downturns have always been good to cloud. And I think this is no no change. So give us a little glimpse as to what we're going to hear from a product standpoint. That theme on 20 >>20 Well, a few different, exciting things in the past is, you know, we launched being back up for ah aws. That was our first cloud native solution. We just recently launched Beam Backup or Microsoft Azure, and you're going to see iterations on those products. Demoed live on stage by the legendary Anton Cost Dev and always a fan favorite, Rick Vanover. So you're going to see demos of those. You're also going to see the first foray into partnerships with Google as well Google Cloud Platform. You combine all those hyper scaler is right now. They did Ah, I think a little over 67 billion last year in 2019 and obviously the compound annual growth rate is projected to go to 375 billion. So we're gonna highlight some of the capabilities that we've introduced in the last few months and over the rest of 2020 with them. >>Well, and you're right. I mean, we just reported we just saw in the first quarter earnings reports you got AWS has a $38 billion business growing in the mid thirties. You got azure and >>Google growing >>faster from from a smaller base, but still enormous, many, many billions. You also have the hands on labs. It's this two days, June 17th of June 18th. So check it out. Go sign up. But you've got a hands on labs that you're bringing to the virtual experience. >>Yes. So we're doing 20 breakout sessions, 10 life fashions, and that's exciting. But actually, for the first time, it was based on demand. We're doing what we call a v Mathon, and that's going to bring 20 to 30 live sessions where actually users can come and collaborate live with the experts. And one of the things about a virtual event, of course, is that this opens it up globally for people to come and register for free, but they can actually interact on an ongoing basis over those two days with the experts from being so well, some people are disappointed that we can't be their face to face. We're still going to have the legendary party. But we're also doing some of these V marathons and live interactions, which is a new opportunity for us. I think it's exciting. >>Well, you better make sure you have your auto scaling on any FCS. Some of these virtual conferences get so many people. We just saw one on Twitter with s so much demand, it went down. I'm sure you guys got your infrastructure together, so bring us home. You know, why should I attend Beam on 2020? >>Well, everyone knows VM for its high energy. It's exciting conferences, lots of announcements. We have partners there with us on stage. This is taking it to the next level. We're taking that same conference. That is exciting. Lots of energy. We're doing it online, which brings it to a global market. And we're not decreasing the energy. In fact, we're still having that legendary already. We're still doing all those massive announcements So this just is a is a next generation. I would argue of where the industry is going. We're excited to be there with our partners. >>So very exciting. Time for being blockbuster acquisition in January. Congratulations, Danny to you. And very excited for VM on. Check it out June 17th and 18th. A great thing. Typical wien, right? It just works. You go there. It's not like a huge example. This is a few things. You got an email and a couple of the things Boom registrations. Simple. Danny, thanks so much for helping us with this preview. Really appreciate it. >>Thanks very much, Dave. Always a pleasure and happy to speak with you. >>Alright, Stay safe. Everybody, This is Dave Volante for the Cube. We'll see you next time. >>Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

>>Live from San Diego, California at the cube covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem Marsh. >>Welcome back. This is the cubes coverage of CubeCon cloud date of con 2019 in San Diego, 12,000 in attendance. I'm just two minute and my cohost is John trier. And welcome back to the program. A multi-time cube alumni. You're on Aviv, who is the CTO and cofounder of a Gwoza. We've had quite a lot of, you know, founders, CTOs, you know, their big brains at this show, your own. So you know, let, let, let's start, you know, there's, there's really a gathering, uh, there's a lot of effort building out, you know, a very complicated ecosystem. Give us first, kind of your overall impressions of the show in this ecosystem. Yeah, so we're very early on on Desecco system. We were one of the first in the first batch of CNCF members when there were a few dozens of those. Not like a thousand of those. Uh, so I've been, I've been to all those shows. >>Uh, we're part of the CNCF committees for different things. And any initiating, I think this has become much more mainstream. I told you before, it's sort of the new van world. You know, I lot a lot more, uh, all day infrastructure vendors along with middleware and application vendor are coming here. All right, so, so one of the things we like having you on the program you're on is you don't pull any punches. So we've seen certain waves of technology come with big promise and fall short, you know, big data was going to allow us to leverage everything and you know, large percentage of, uh, solutions, you know, had to stop or be pulled back. Um, give us, what's the cautionary tale that we should learn and make sure that we don't repeat, you know, so I've been a CTO for many years in different companies and, and what everyone used to say about it, I'm always right. >>I'm only one year off usually. I'm usually a little more optimistic. So, you know, we've been talking about Cloudera and Hadoop world sort of going down and Kubernetes and cloud services, essentially replacing them. We were talking about it four years ago and what do you see that's actually happening? You know, with the collapse of my par and whore, then we're going to Cloudera things are going down, customer now Denon guys, we need equivalent solution for Kubernetes. We're not going to maintain two clusters. So I think in general we've been, uh, picking on many of those friends. We've, we've invented serverless before it was even called serverless with, with nuclear and now we're expanding it further and now we see the new emerging trends really around machine learning and AI. That's sort of the big thing. I'm surprised, you know, that's our space where essentially you're doing a data science platform as a service fully automated around serverless constructs so people can, can develop things really, really quickly. >>And what I see that, you know, third of the people I talk to are, have some relations to machine learning and AI. Yeah. Maybe explain that for our audience a little bit. Because when, you know, Kubernetes first started very much an infrastructure discussion, but the last year or two, uh, very much application specific, we hear many people talking about those data use cases, AI and ML early days. But you know how, how does that fit into the overall? It's simple. You know there, if you're moving to the cloud are two workloads. There is lift and shift workloads and there are new workloads. Okay, lift and ship. Why? Why bother moving them to Kubernetes? Okay, so you end up with new workloads. Everyone is trying to be cloud native server, elastic services and all that. Everyone has to feed data and machine learning into those new applications. This is why you see those trends that talk about old data integration, various frameworks and all that in that space. >>So I don't think it's by coincidence. I think it's, that's because new applications incorporate the intelligence. That's why you hear a lot of the talk about those things. What I loved about the architecture, what you just said is like people don't want to run into another cluster. I don't want to run two versions of Kubernetes, you know, if I'm moving there you, because you, but you're still built on that, that kind of infrastructure framework and, and knowledge of, of how to do serverless and how to make more nodes and fewer nodes and persistent storage and all that sort of good stuff and uh, and, and run TensorFlow and run, you know, all these, all these big data apps. But you can, um, you can talk about that just as a, as a, the advantage to your customer cause you could, it seems like you could, you could run it on top of GKE. >>You could run it on prem. I could run my own Coobernetti's you could, you could just give me a, uh, so >> we, we say Kubernetes is not interesting. I didn't know. I don't want anyone to get offended. Okay. But Kubernetes is not the big deal. The big deal is organizations want to be competitive in this sort of digital world. They need to build new applications. Old ones are sort of in sort of a maintenance mode. And the big point is about delivering new application with elastic scaling because your, your customers may, may be a million people behind some sort of, uh, you know, uh, app. Okay. Um, so that's the key thing and Kubernetes is a way to deliver those microservices. But what we figured out, it's still very complicated for people. Okay. Especially in, in the data science work. Uh, he takes him a few weeks to deliver a model on a Jupiter notebook, whatever. >>And then productizing it is about the year. That's something we've seen between six months to a year to productize things that are relatively simple. Okay. And that's because people think about the container, the TensorFlow, the Kuda driver, whatever, how to scale it, how to make it perform, et cetera. So let's, we came up with is traditionally there's a notion of serverless, which is abstraction with very slow performance, very limited set of use cases. We sell services about elastic scaling paper, use, full automation around dev ops and all that. Okay. Why cannot apply to other use cases are really high concurrency, high-speed batch, no distributed training, distributed workload. Because we're coming, if you know my background, you know, been beeping in Mellanox and other high-performance companies. So where I have a, we have a high performance DNA so we don't know how to build things are extremely slow. >>It sort of irritates me. So the point is that how can we apply this notion of abstraction and scaling and all that to variety of workloads and this is essentially what it was. It is a combination of high speed data technology for like, you know, moving data around on between those function and extremely high speed set though functions that work on the different domains of data collection and ingestion, data analytics, you know, machine learning, training and CIN learning model serving. So a customer can come on on our platform and we have testimonials around that, that you know, things that they thought about building on Amazon or even on prem for months and months. They'd built in our platform in few weeks with fewer people because the focus is on building the application. The focus is not about joining your Kubernetes. Now we go to customers, some of them are large banks, et cetera. >>They say, Alrighty, likes Kubernetes, we have our own Kubernetes. So you know what, we don't butter. Initially we, we used to bring our own Kubernetes, but then you know, I don't mind, you know, we do struggle sometimes because our level of expertise in Coobernetti's is way more sophisticated than what they have to say. Okay, we've installed Kubernetes and we come with our software stack. No you didn't, you know, you didn't configure the security, they didn't configure ingress, et cetera. So sometimes it's easier for us to bring, but we don't want him to get into this sort of tension with it. Our focus is to accelerate development on the new application that are intelligent, you know, move applications from, if you think of the traditional data analytics and data science, it's about reporting and what people want to do. And some applications we've announced this week and application around real time cyber collection, it's being used in some different governments is that you can collect a lot of information, SMS, telephony, video, et cetera. >>And in real time you could detect terrorists. Okay. So those application requires high concurrency always on rolling upgrades, things that weren't there in the traditional BI, Oracle, you know, kind of reporting. So you have this wave of putting intelligence into more highly concurrent online application. It requires all the dev ops sort of aspects, but all the data analytics and machine learning aspects to to come to come along. Alright. So speaking of those workloads for, for machine learning, uh, cube flow is a project, uh, moving the, moving in that space along it. Give us the update there. Yeah. So, so there is sort of a rising star in the Kubernetes community around how to automate machine learning workflows. That's cube flow. Uh, I'm personally, I one of the committers and killed flow and what we've done, because it's very complicated cause Google developed the cube cube flow as one of the services on, on a GKE. >>Okay. And the tweaked everything. It works great in GK, even that it's relatively new technology and people want to move around it in a more generic. So one of the things in our platform is a managed cube flow that works natively with all the rest of the solutions. And other thing that we've done is we make it, we made it fully. So instead of queue flow approach is very con, you know, Kubernetes oriented containers, the ammos, all that. Uh, in our flavor of Coupa we can just create function and you just like chain functions and you click and it runs. Just, you've mentioned a couple of times, uh, how does serverless, as you defined it, fit in with, uh, Coobernetti's? Is that working together just functions on top or I'm just trying to make here, >> you'll, you'll hear different things. I think when most people say serverless, they mean sort of front end application things that are served low concurrency, a Terra, you know, uh, when we mean serverless, it's, we have eight different engines that each one is very good in, in different, uh, domain like distributed deep learning, you know, distributed machine learning, et cetera. >>And we know how to fit the thing into any workloads. So for me, uh, we deliver the elastic scaling, the paper use and the ease of use of sort of no dev ops across all the eight workloads that we're addressing. For most people it's like a single Dreek phony. And I think really that the future is, is moving to that. And if you think about serverless, there's another aspect here which is very important for machine learning and Israel's ability. I'm not going to develop any algorithm in the world. Okay. There are a bunch of companies or users or developers that can develop an algorithm and I can just consume it. So the future in data science but not just data science is essentially to have like marketplaces of algorithms premade or analytic tools or maybe even vendors licensing their technology through sort of prepackaged solution. >>So we're a great believer of forget about the infrastructure, focus on the business components and Daisy chain them in to a pipeline like UFO pipeline and run them. And that will allow you most reusability that, you know, lowest amount of cost, best performance, et cetera. That's great. I just want to double click on the serverless idea one more time, but, so you're, you're developing, it's an architectural pattern, uh, and you're developing these concepts yourself. You're not actually, sometimes the concept gets confused with the implementations of other people's serverless frameworks or things like that. Is that, is that correct? I think there are confusion. I'm getting asked a lot of times. How do you compare your technology compared to let's say a? You've heard the term gay native is just a technology or open FAS or, yeah. Hold on. Pfizer's a CGIs or Alito. An open community is very nice for hobbies, but if you're an enterprise and it's security, Eldep integration, authentication for anything, you need DUIs, you need CLI, you need all of those things. >>So Amazon provides that with Lambda. Can you compare Lambda to K native? No. Okay. Native is, I need to go from get and build and all that. Serverless is about taking a function and clicking and deploying. It's not about building. And the problem is that this conference is about people, it people in crowd for people who like to build. So they, they don't like to get something that work. They want to get the build the Lego building blocks so they can play. So in our view, serverless is not open FAS or K native. Okay. It's something that you click and it works and have all the enterprise set of features. We've extended it to different levels of magnitude of performance. I'll give you an anecdote. I did a comparison for our customer asking me the same question, not about Canadian, but this time Lambda. How do you guys compare with London? >>Know Nokia is extremely high performance. You know we are doing up to 400,000 events on a single process and the customer said, you know what, I have a use case. I need like 5,000 events per second. How do you guys compare a total across all my functions? How do you compare against Lambda? We went into, you know the price calculator, 5,000 events per second on Lambda. That's $50,000 okay. $50,000 we do about, let's say even in simple function, 60,000 per process, $500 VM on Amazon, $500 VM on Amazon with our technology stick, 2000 transactions per second, 5,000 events per second on Lambda. That's 50,000. Okay. 100 times more expensive. So it depends on the design point. We designed our solution to be extremely efficient, high concurrency. If you just need something to do a web hook, use Lambda, you know, if you are trying to build a high concurrency application efficient, you know, an enterprise application on it, on a serverless architecture construct come to us. >>Yeah. So, so just a, I'll pause at this for you because a, it reminds me what you were talking about about the builders here in the early days of VMware to get it to work the way I wanted to. People need to participate and build it and there's the Ikea effect. If I actually helped build it a little bit, I like it more to get to the vast majority, uh, to uh, adopt those things. It needs to become simplified and I can't have, you know, all the applications move over to this environment if I have to constantly tweak that. Everything. So that's the trend we've been really seeing this year is some of that simplification needs to get there. There's focus on, you know, the operators, the day two operations, the applications so that anybody can get there without having to build themselves. So we know there's still work to be done. >>Um, but if we've crossed the chasm and we want the majority to now adopt this, it can't be that I have to customize it. It needs to be more turnkey. Yeah. And I think it's a friendly and attitude between what you'll see in Amazon reinvent in couple of weeks. And then what you see here, because there is those, the focus of we're building application a what kind of tools and the Jess is gonna just launch today on the, on the floor. Okay. So we can just consume it and build our new application. They're not thinking, how did Andy just, he built his tools. Okay. And I think that's the opposite here is like how can you know Ali's is still working inside underneath dude who cares about his team. You know, you care about having connectivity between two points and and all that. How do you implement it that, you know, let someone else take care of it and then you can apply your few people that you have on solving your business problem, not on infrastructure. >>You know, I just met a guy, came to our booth, we've seen our demo. Pretty impressive how we rise people function and need scales and does everything automatically said we want to build something like you're doing, you know, not really like only 10% of what you just showed me. And we have about six people and for three months where it just like scratching our head. I said, okay, you can use our platform, pay us some software license and now you'll get, you know, 10 times more functionality and your six people can do something more useful. Says right, let's do a POC. So, so that's our intention and I think people are starting to get it because Kubernetes is not easy. Again, people tell me we installed Kubernete is now installed your stack and then they haven't installed like 20% of all the things that you need to stop so well your own have Eve always pleasure to catch up with you. Thanks for the all the updates and I know we'll catch up with you again soon. Sure. All right. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. We'll be back with more coverage here from CubeCon cloud date of con in San Diego. Thanks for watching the cube.

>>lie from Copenhagen, Denmark. >>It's the >>Q covering Nutanix dot Next 2019. Brought to you by >>Nutanix. Welcome back, everyone to the cubes. Live coverage of Nutanix. Stop! Next here in Copenhagen, Denmark. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, coasting along side of stew minimum. Of course. We're joined by Regime Mirani. He is the CTO clad platforms at Nutanix. Thank you so much for coming on the Cubans. You need >>to be here as usual. >>So you were up on the main stage talking about your guiding force. Your mission to make enterprise computing so reliable, so ubiquitous that it's invisible. >>You don't think about >>it. You don't even get a little No, I mean, look, >>if you look at any successful technology, consumer technology doesn't need to be aware of the details around it, right? I mean, take cars, even because the first introduced you probably had to understand Rick operate. There was how it all works. Remember for water in the radiator. But most people don't know how to do that today. I wouldn't know how to do that today, even though my Utah actually had to do some of those things. Um, that isn't the point. of the cars or self driving. Now the same thing should happen to computing. And we spend way too much time today just doing things that keep the light. Don't nights on. Just imagine infrastructure patching things up, grading them. I really should be something that not what idea is doing i d should be focusing on the business, delivering applications that their customers need and not so much on managing infrastructure. >>Rajiv, that one click Simplicity is so important, yet we know things are becoming even more complicated. Bring us inside a little bit that you know, you've got 14,000 customers. Guess and there's been a major, basically rewrite of a less to be able to be ready for all of the new ash cloud Native envy me obtained, you know, you name it all of these things. How do you balance getting all of this new stuff up with making sure that you keep that simplicity and don't make things for all of your customers while all the jet engines, uh, you know, >>it takes constant effort. It takes a conscious effort to make sure that things are in drifting away from our goal of being simple and to be frank. At times it has and you know, we periodically to audits off all our work floors. Make sure that as simple as you think they are and haven't drifted over time. And occasionally we do find some rail clunkers and have to go back and fix those things. What >>makes it >>different is that we start with a fairly opinionated view on how things should be done. The idea is to make it simple for 99% of the people, while still offering the all that washed options of one person power users would need them and making sure that we understand what 90% 99% of people need. And focusing on that is very important to a lot of customer focus study sort of design reviews, but also this constant going back and you're taking work feel like we m creation like provisioning of'em. When he started, it was pretty simple right then, as we started adding more and more options eyes, this thing going to use a PC I passed through isn't going to use this option. That option suddenly realized that now they're 30 things that people are feeling into provisional we have, most of which nobody cares I care about. So you go back, read I tte keep doing that again and again and again. >>So rich Eve It's one thing when you talk about living on different servers, whether it be super micro underneath or Delhi Emcee Lenovo H p e. It's >>gonna be a >>little bit different if you're talking about where you're going with H p E Green Lake with, you know, the X in AWS that you talk about when I talk to people, you know, it's like, Oh, I'm trying to use terror form and you know, But I have to write it. One way to work with Amazon. I have to write it another way. If it's, you know, azure G C P S o. You know, will Nutanix be able to keep that simplicity and bring, you know, homogeneity to thes dispersed invite? >>Absolutely. So the point is, watch a layer of abstraction right the way we are going to public cloud away we go every server winter out the way of doing things and sigh all if it starts with the hyper wiser and the story of stock and networking with three layers of abstraction. And if you have the same three components everywhere, everything we built on top of that remains exactly the same. Prison was the same on a P S. On the same. Everything looks the same. So higher level constructs like calm and so on don't have to be aware of what the actual substrate is creating a calm blueprint, whether it works on ZAY on AWS or whether Trump's on SX or whether runs on Nutanix H way. The blue blueprint remains exactly the same. Now, if you want to consume more, service is if you want to consume. So this is an Amazon, which are not available on premises. You want to use things like auto scaling groups in Ec2. Sure, you could then create blueprints that our customers we're putting in the substrate. >>So, in terms of this, you said, you start with a very opinionated place of where the customer is well, First of all, it's based on customer feedback and customer surveys. And so where were are you right now in terms of where the customer is? Are you meeting the customer now, or is the customer ahead or what? Where would you describe that? I think it >>depends on what you're looking at. If you're looking at the core products, absolutely, the customers are with us. They were ready to consume. They actually drive a lot of the innovation that we're doing. We're feeding, feeding back changes that we could be doing to make things even simpler on the private cloud side that's getting there. I think we get a lot off feedback on files on on present pro on com on on Flow because those have started getting a lot of adoption in the market, and we do get a lot of feedback on them on. So our newer products that you started a war being more recently, it's a more collaborative process. There were actually working with customers directly understanding their problems on dhe, moving a roadmap forward based on that. So while it's early in terms off adoption in production, the whole process is very collaborative in those situations. So we really are very close to the customers there. >>What are some of the biggest customer problems right now that they're facing what's what's keeping them up at night and therefore keeping you up at night? >>Security is always a big one. Complexity, people skills. All those things are big problems. In fact, one of the biggest things like that was just training enough people to handle all the complexity in a data set. Is the Morrigan removed from that? The more they don't have to focus on that, the easier you make their lives. The other thing is just a lot of time to spend on routine activities which, which acquired disruption to service is right. This is something we've talked about before. Why does it Why does it require a legacy three tier system to have maintenance windows and downtime to do an upgrade? Google our has downtime. Google is never down for maintenance. Doesn't mean they're not already there waiting all the time. So how do we bring that same kind of capabilities on premises that's gonna focus our long power? >>So, Rajiv, when I'm talking to users out there, when they talk about all of the items that are out there that they need to deal with and the routine task automation is something keeps, you know, coming up. So tell us where automation fits into some of the new things that you were talking about today in this week with your customer? >>Yeah, automation >>for us. Waking automation in three steps anything that's automatic better be safe. First of all, safety is paramount. Started security. It has to be simple, and we talked about how calm provides for that. And then you can start adding in this new wave off technologies around artificial intelligence and machine learning. And it's not so much about automation right now. It's all gone to me. It's it's autonomous operations, not just scripts. That due to a task on dhe, that's >>an area >>we invested in very heavily early on with our prison pro product way, build our own patented or thumbs for machine learning applied them to operational metrics like capacity planning. And what if modeling and dynamic alerts and what we've been doing with that is extending that more into the application layer so that not only can you apply these algorithms to CP when memory, we can actually get insights into Hey, the Leighton see on this particular application looks somewhat unusual, or the amount of cash available on a sequel server is unusually low and act on those, and the other part is acting on on alert. Something happens. There's a human being need to get in wall to solve for that. And if it does, then well, it's not really automatic. Right? So that's the other part that we introduce, which is a cross for a product which lets you define these action chains that automatically, uh, what about to be triggered when Annie went on alert takes place, they can go ahead and fix the problem. But also, you know, simple things like send your slack notification or an email locked. They went, maybe create a snapshot of your wee am so that you could go back and be back problems later. All that sort of thing made really, really simple. >>Yes, it goes back to the simplicity and the invisibility to this. >>Yes, yes. Uh, autonomous data centers, by definition, have to be invisible, right? If if if If you're to get involved in marriage and autonomous Data center, then what's the plane? It's a point. Exactly. So the whole idea is that, uh, human involvement in day to day operations against solo that everybody's focused on applications on line of business use cases. >>Rajiv, when it when it comes to those applications. You know, you talked about some of the new enhancements like envy me on and obtain, You know, Where are your customers today? You know, Are there any interesting applications that you're seeing them deploying today? Ah, Pattern. I've talked about the last couple of years of the Nutanix show, is modernized the platform and then modernized the absolute top of it. Things like container ization. I'm sure to bell curve in a journey where all the customers But you know, what are some of the patterns that air starting emergen where they finding success? >>Yeah, This >>whole wave off new applications around data pipelines with Kafka spark things like that Apache stack effectively which are putting more more off load on storage in particular. So that's that's one area. We see customers looking for more performance. But >>even, >>you know, some of the traditional ah traditional uh, applications like ASAP Hana and epic and meditate expanse. They also have patterns which can benefit greatly with some of that wants wants that we have been making and gets a technical issue. No, The size of the working said with it all fits and car and on sst was spitting on magnetic drives. But something like we've been doing is moving the overheads. If you do have a miss and you go to slow a media, you still get good performance. And that's really how we're getting good to the new. >>Well, yeah, maybe without getting, you know, we don't need to go drill down into the core of the intel chip everything. But you know, Nutanix doesn't just take off the shelf stuff and, you know, put a box together. It's software, and there's work that happens with your partners in the ecosystem. Give us a little flavor as toe. You know where you're making the investments and where some of those partnerships and integrations or a key? >>Yeah, So on the platform side, Ah, a lot of the investments happen in validation of the platforms, making sure that we're ahead of the curve in adopting technologies but also feeding back from our side things we would like to see in the platform. Right? So how do you adapt things like R d m A. To handle not just the traditional work with the happy converge workload? How do you essentially look for things in this new class? of memories that would benefit from data locality for us. So that's one class off partnership that we have the hardware vendors with GHB, with Intel, with the IBM, a whole bunch of people. But >>then >>we also have partnerships up the stock these days with companies like service. Now, with we for backup for for our mind product. I think you saw a little bit of that today. It's a whole bunch of things happening across all areas. >>One of the things that it really comes across at this conference is just how strong Nutanix culture is. The company culture, the humble, honest, hungry and another word that's creeping in now is resilient. I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about your division of the company and describe how the company's resilience, the employees and the company itself has really displayed itself. >>So, you know, as it any company you know, Any time you go through the kind of growth we have, there's the forward momentum that everybody sees. They also a lot of setbacks that people don't really see, and they've been a whole bunch of us off these in our history. They've been areas where literally. The product has has a floor which is so fundamental we call it internally a near death experience. What's really great until again, from an engineering point of yours, how the teams come together at that point instead of these war rooms, even working weekends, Everybody's there. Everybody's on it and nobody talks about. Hey, look, where's my work? Life? Balance of things like that, especially when they're the customer in world. If there's if there's a problem that's causing customers outages, our engineers will give up everything. They'll give up everything and not just at work with their lives to make sure that gets fixed. And that has helped us get Basti setbacks get back in stride. Happens last Now. It used to happen a lot earlier, but spill this real culture resilience from the big *** in the early engineers. >>All right, Rajiv, what's exciting? You going forward? You know you don't have to touch on this one. But you know, when I saw at the end, the site clusters and hibernate feature was something that was like, Oh, yeah. I don't think I've seen that as to how I could make sure I save my data be ableto, you know, Shut things down. Maybe start there. But give us You know what a little bit. Look forward as to where the team's playing. >>Now, that's kind of, >>you know, thinking that detail thing that you have to do. What, you want to launch a new product, right? Okay, look, the whole point of doing doings, I clusters on Amazon. One of the biggest use cases. This cloud bursting cloud busting is not just about increasing your workload size, scaling it up at some point, you want to scale it down? How do you do that for state for work? Stateless. It's easy. All I'm registering Web servers over that sort of my way, they're gone. But our database that I scaled out over there well, that data can't go away. So we had to find ways to essentially solve for those from. So that's how the hibernate feature came around in general, The bigger question that you asked about, You know what I'm most excited about? I >>think this >>whole convergence of private and public cloud with same stack on both sides is a new new tank. It really hasn't existed before. Um, the father applications can now move back and forth seamlessly between public cloud and private cloud without rewriting without re factoring without a big lift and shift is very, very interesting. But by itself, it's not enough. Um, the flip that's missing is what about data movement? What about if you have your data and Amazon and I want to move it on premises? That there really are no good solutions of the Amazon doesn't give you a P eyes on dhe the tools to do that. So I think data movement's gonna be a big thing. And then Billy, a common service's tack on board because it's not just networking, storage in and compute anymore, right? If you're an Amazon, you're probably using all kinds off. Networking service is security groups. Ah, Route 53. How do you take those kind of service is and also make them available on premises. >>So, Rajiv, is there anything you've learned as a team when you look at AWS outposts or Oracle clouded customer, we've had a few years of talking about, but not a lot of deployments yet, so, you know, not saying you're late to the market, but you know what would have been able to sit back and learn from what has been done so far. >>So the >>reason we >>a little bit late to the market is that we think of solving a problem which the other windows are not, Which is kind of what I alluded to before that is that how do you support both the legacy applications on the cloud Net Cloud applications? How do you provide for migration both ways? Applications of a born in the cloud and now you want to move them on premises or applications of a born on premises and you want to move them to the Cloud Outpost is great. I think it's a good good product of technologies that AWS are thinks that hybrid is the right strategy, but it's also one problem. It's also the problem off cloud applications running on premises it does not solve for the problem of legacy applications running and cloud right, that is just a cz difficult as ever. That's that's not become any easier without force. Similarly, if you look at what we are very swing with AWS, it's also legacy applications going going to AWS. But in doing so, they don't have access to all the different networking services that AWS offers because you're not running and a sex, and you're kind of running a different networking start tonight. So with well, thought long and hard about this problem. And I said, Hey, look, we're not going to take the easy answer over here. You can take Take our stock, which is known to run both legacy and cloud native applications. If probe in that on Internet natively into Amazon so that you can use Amazon service is you can use our service is you can a legacy. Applications can run more than applications without giving up. Anything on that, I think is why signal this longer? But I think it's a more powerful solution for the long term. >>Thank you so much for coming on the Cube. It's always a pleasure having you on my back and see us again. Thanks. I'm Rebecca Knight for stew. Minutemen stay more of the cubes. Live coverage of dot Next Nutanix here in Copenhagen,

>> from Cambridge, Massachusetts. It's three Cube covering M. I T. Chief data officer and information quality Symposium 2019. Brought to you by Silicon Angle Media. >> Welcome back to M I. T. CDO I Q everybody, you're watching the cube we got. We go out to the events we extract the signal from the noise is day one of this conference. Chief Data Officer event. I'm Dave, along with my co host, Paul Gillen. Stuart Bond is here is a research director of International Data Corporation I DC Stewart. Welcome to the Cube. Thanks for coming on. Thank you for having me. You're very welcome. So your space data intelligence tell us about your swim lane? Sure. >> So my role it I. D. C is a ZAY. Follow the data integration and data intelligence software market. So I follow all the different vendors in the market. I look at what kinds of solutions they're bringing to market, what kinds of problems. They're solving both business and technical for their clients. And so I can then report on the trends and market sizes, forecasts and such, And within that part of what I what I cover is everything from data integration which is more than traditionally E T l change data capture data movements, data, virtualization types of technologies as well as what we call date integrity of one. And I'm calling data intelligence, which is all of the Tell the metadata about the data. It's the data catalogs meditating management's data lineage. It's the data quality data profiling, master data intelligence. It's all of the data about the data and understanding really answering what I call a entering the five W's and h of data. It's the who, what, where, when, why and how. Data. So that's the market that I'm covering and following, and that's why I'm >> here. Were you here this morning for Mark Ramsey's Yes, I talk. So he kind of went to you. Heard it started with the D W kind of through E T L under the bus. Well, MGM, then the Enterprise data model said all that failed. But that stuff's not going away, and I'm sure they're black. So still using, you know, all those all that tooling today. So what was your reaction to that you were not in your head and yeah, it's true or saying, Well, maybe there's a little we'll have what we've been saying. The mainframe is gonna go away for years and >> still around, so I think they're obviously there's still those technologies out there and they're still being used. You can look at any of the major dtl vendors and there's new ones coming to the market, so that's still alive and well. There's no doubt that it's out there and its biggest segment of the market that I followed. So there's no source tooling, right? Yes, >> there's no doubt that it's still >> there. But Mark's vision of where things are going, where things are heading with, with data intelligence really being at the Cory talk about those spiders talked about that central depository of information about knowledge of the data. That's where things are heading to, whether you call it a data hub, whether you call it a date, a platform, not really a one big, huge data pop for one big, huge data depository, but one a place where you can go to get the information but natives you can find out where the data is. You could find out what it means, both the business context as well as the technical information you find out who's using that data. You can find out when it's being used, Why it's being used in. Why do we even have it and how it should >> be used? So it's being used >> appropriately. So you would say that his vision, actually what he implemented was visionary skating. They skated to the puck, so to speak, and that's we're going >> to see more of that. Where are seeing more of that? That's why we've seen such a jump in the number of vendors that air providing data catalogue solutions. I did, Uh, I d. C has this work product calling market glance. I did that >> beginning of 2018. >> I just did it again. In the middle of this year, the number of vendors that offer data catalogue solutions has significantly interest 240% increase in the number of vendors that offer that now itself of a small base. These air, not exhaustive studies. It may be that I didn't know about all those data catalogue vendors a year and 1/2 ago, but may also be that people are now saying that we've got a data catalogue, >> but you've really got a >> peel back the layers a little bit. Understand what these different data catalysts are and what they're doing because not all of them are crediting. >> We'll hear Radar. You don't know about it. 99% of the world mark talked this morning about some interesting new technologies. They were using Spider Ring to find the data bots to classify the data tools wrangle the data. I mean, there's a lot of new technology being applied to this area. What? Which of those technologies do you think has the greatest promise right now? And how? How how automated can this process become? >> It's the spider ring, and it's the cataloging of the data. It's understanding what you've got out there that is growing crazy. Just started to track that it's growing a lot that has the most promised. And as I said, I think that's going to be the data platform in the future. Is the intelligence knowing about where your data is? You men go on, get it. You know it's not a matter of all. The data is one place anymore. Data's everywhere Date is in hybrid cloud. It's in on premise. It's in private. Cloud isn't hosted. It's everywhere. I just did a survey. I got the results back in June 2019 just a month ago, and the data is all over the place. So really having that knowledge having that intelligence about where your data is, that has the most promise. As faras, the automation is concerned. Next step there. It's not just about collecting the information about where your data is, but it's actually applying the analytics, the machine learning and the artificial intelligence to that metadata collection that you've got so that you can then start to create those bots to create those pipelines to start to automate those tasks. We're starting to see some vendors move in that area, moving that direction. There's a lot of promise there >> you guys, at least when I remember. You see, the software is pretty robust taxonomy. I'm sure it's evolved over the years. So how do you sort of define your space? I'm interested in How big is that space, you know, in terms of market size and is a growing and where do you see it going? >> Right. So my my coverage of data integration and data intelligence is fairly small. It's a small, little marketed. I D. C. I'm part of a larger team that looks a data management, the analytics and information management. So we've got people on our team like a damn vessel. Who covers the analytics? Advanced Analytics show Nautical Palo Carlson. He's been on the cable covers, innovative technologies, those I apologize. I don't have that number off the top. >> Okay, No, But your space, my space is it. That's that Software market is so fragmented. And what I d. C has always done well, as you put people on those fragments and you know, deep in there. So So how you've been ableto not make your eyes bleed when you do that, challenging so the data and put it all together. >> It's important. Integration markets about 66 and 1/2 1,000,000,000 >> dollars. Substantial size. Yeah, but again, a lot of vendors Growing number of events in the markets growing, >> the market continues to grow as the data is becoming more distributed, more dispersed. There's no need to continue to integrate that data. There's also that need that growing >> need for that date intelligence. It's not >> just, you know, we've had a lot of enquiries lately about data being fed into machine learning artificial intelligence and people realizing our data isn't clean. We have to clean up our data because we're garbage in garbage. Out is probably more important now than ever before because you don't have someone saying, I don't think that day is right. You've got machines were looking at data instead. The technology that's out there and the problem with data quality. It's on a new problem. It's the same problem we've had for years. All of the technology is there to clean that data up, and that's a part of what I saw. I look at the data quality vendors experience here, sink sort in all of the other data quality capabilities that you get from in from Attica, from Tahoe or from a click podium. Metal is there, and so that part is growing. And there's a lot of more interest in that data quality and that data intelligence side again so the right data can be used. Good data can be used to trust in that data. Can the increase we used for the right reasons as well That's adding that context. Understand that Samantha having all that metadata that goes around that data so that could be used. Most of >> it is one of those markets that you may be relatively small. It's not 100,000,000,000 but it it enables a lot of larger markets. So okay, so it's 66 and 1/2 1,000,000,000 it's growing. It is a growing single digits, double digits. It's growing. It's hovering around the double dip double. It is okay, it's 10%. And then and then who were the, You know, big players who was driving the shares there? Is there a dominant player there? Bunch of >> so infirm. Atticus Number one in the market. Okay, followed by IBM. And I say peas right up there. Sass is there. Tell End is making a good Uh, okay, they're making a nice with Yeah, but there there's a number of different players. There's There's a lot of different players in that market. >> And in the leading market share player has what, 10%? 15%? 50%? Is it like a dominant divine spot? That's tough to say. You got a big It's over 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 right? So they've got maybe 1/6 of the market. Okay, so but it's not like Cisco as 2/3 of the networking market or anything like that. And what about the cloud guys? A participating in this guy's deal with >> the cloud guys? Yeah, the ClA got so there are some pure cloud solutions. There's a relative, for example. Pure cloud MBM mastered a management there. There's I'd say there's less pure cloud than there used to be. But, you know, but someone like an infra matic is really pushing that clouds presence in that cloud >> running these tools, this tooling in in the cloud But the cloud guys directly or not competing at this >> point. So Amazon Google? Yes, Those cloud guys. Yes. Okay, there, there. Google announced data flow back in our data. Sorry. Data fusion back. Google. >> Yeah, that's right. >> And so there they've got an e t l two on the cloud now. Ah, Amazon has blue yet which is both a catalog and an e t l tool. Microsoft course has data factory in azure. >> So those guys are coming on. I'm guessing if you talk to in dramatic and they said, Well, they're not as robust as we are. And we got a big install base and we go multi cloud is that kind of posturing of the incumbents or yeah, that's posturing. And maybe that's I don't mean it is a pejorative. If I were, those guys would be doing the same thing. You know, we were talking earlier about how the cloud guys essentially killed the Duke. All right, do you Do you see the same thing happening here, or is it well, the will the tool vendors be able to stay ahead in your view, >> depends on how they execute. If they're there and they're available in the cloud along with along with those clapper viers, they're able to provide solutions in the same same way the same elasticity, the same type of consumption based pricing models that pod vendors air offering. They can compete with that. They still have a better solution. Easton What >> in multi cloud in hybrid is a big part of their value problems that the cloud guys aren't really going hard after. I mean, this sort of dangling your toe in the water, some of them some of the >> cloud guys they have. They have the hybrid capabilities because they've got some of what they're what they built comes from on premises, worlds as well. So they've got that ability. Microsoft in particular >> on Google, >> Google that the data fusion came out of >> You're saying, But it's part of the Antos initiative. Er, >> um, I apologize. Folks are watching, >> but soup of acronyms notices We're starting a little bit. What tools have you seen or technology? Have you seen making governance of unstructured data? That looks promising? Uh, so I don't really cover >> the instructor data space that much. What I can say is Justus in the structure data world. It's about the metadata. It's about having the proper tags about that unstructured data. It's about getting the information of that unstructured data so that it can then be governed appropriately, making structure out of that, that is, I can't really say, because I don't cover that market explicitly. But I think again it comes back to the same type of data intelligence having that intelligence about that data by understanding what's in there. >> What advice are you giving to, you know, the buyers in your community and the sellers in your community, >> So the buyer's within the market. I talk a lot about that. The need for that data intelligence, so data governance to me is not a technology you can't go by data governance data governance is an organizational disappoint. Technology is a part of that. To me, the data intelligence technology is a part of that. So, really, organizations, if they really want a good handle, get a good handle on what data they have, how to use that, how to be enabled by that data. They need to have that date intelligence into go look for solutions that can help him pull that data intelligence out. But the other part of that is measurement. It's critical to measure because you can't improve what you're not measuring. So you know that type of approach to it is critical Eve, and you've got to be able to have people in the organization. You've got to be able to have cooperation collaboration across the business. I t. The the gifted office chief Officer office. You've gotta have that collaboration. You've gotta have accountability and for in order for that, to really be successful. For the vendors in the space hybrid is the new reality. In my survey data, it shows clearly that hybrid is where things are. It's not just cloud, it's not just on promise Tiebreak. That's where the future is. They've got to be able to have solutions that work in that environment. Working that hybrid cloud ability has got to be able to have solutions that can be purchased and used again in the same sort of elastic type of method that they're able to get consumers able to get. Service is from other vendors in that same >> height, so we gotta run. Thank you so much for sharing your insights and your data. And I know we were fired. I was firing a lot of questions. Did pretty well, not having the report in front of me. I know what that's like. So thank you for sharing and good luck with your challenges in the future. You got You got a lot of a lot of data to collect and a lot of fast moving markets. So come back any time. Share with you right now, Okay? And thank you for watching Paul and I will be back with our next guest right after this short break from M I t cdo. Right back

>> Live from Las Vegas. It's the queue covering Adobe Summit twenty nineteen brought to you by Adobe. >> Hey, welcome back, everyone. Cube live coverage here in Las Vegas for Adobe sum of twenty nineteen. I'm John for which have Frick. Where he with a cube alumni that had job for three years. And you'LL Bhambri, Vice president of Platform Engineering at Adobe. Great to see you. Thanks for coming by. >> Thank you. >> Let's talk. Engineering. That was your line on the keynote. Great Kino today, by the way, super impressed with content. I'm washing that slides you're presenting, like were to cloud company. I'm failing my Amazon reinvent here. You guys built a really cool platform. Take us through. This was your mission. That's true. So take us through your journey. So how'd we get here? How did you get this beautiful platform? >> So, you know, we've been at it for a few years, and as you know, we've seen CEOs and see emos late. That their focus is to really deliver, you know, delightful experiences to their customers. And not just once, but throughout the journey off the customer. Right? Delight your customer. Every step of the way is what you'LL hear from Adobe from our customers. And we are really helping them to do that. And obviously, in order to do that, there is on, as you well know, that data is behind everything to do with experiences as well. There is a lot ofthe interaction of data and bringing it all together to really understand that holistic view of the customer is super important. And, you know, as you've been this realist, you know, the holistic view of the customer. It's not that you just ended once, and you forget about it, right? You have to build this in real time because the interactions that customers are having with brands are to wear through mobile devices to the apse that they're using off the those brands. And the businesses have to understand that whole journey off the customers and understand what their preferences are. Write what? You know what they like, what they don't like and be able to keeping like that context really during the journey. Whether they're coming to their Web site for the first time are they are repeat, customers be able to give them the right experience at every touch point. And that's where you need all of this data, which is a lot of data. So so you know, We've been on this big data journey on me personally, even, you know, for a long time. But the scale that I've seen here I had not seen before >> our IBM conscious when you weren't IBM prior from Hadoop World, you had your eye on this big data trend. Now, at Adobe, when you have really data coming in with apple cases out in the market place to put a platform together. Hard task. But I want to ask you specific question around that. Looking at the architecture slide you have and analytics cloud and add Cloud a marketing cloud in the commerce cloud. They all have Marcus that they have to address and be highly effective as almost appear placed in alone. But now, integrating across each other now with the journey that you guys were put together is difficult. I know that from a computer science background. How does how did you guys look at that? Architecturally, what were some of the guiding principles around building that? Because you don't want to compromise the capabilities of those functional elements. So you decompose and I get that. How did you put it all together? What was the key guiding principle around. >> Yeah, so that's a really good question, because I mean, Adobe has bean delivering applications, right? Like you said, whether it's around analytics, our marketing cloud or advertising. And now we obviously just acquired the commerce cloud on DH. When you look at the common stuff around all of this, it's data, right? Data being captured, two different channels, data that needs to be curated, you know, having a common data dictionary so that, you know, things mean the same on DH, even though they're captured two different channels. So gathering this data curating this data, organizing it for that holistic view of the customer organizing it so that you can do B I, and reporting on that data is all something that we pull together in the platform there. Now it becomes that whether it is you're doing analytics on this right, which could be a B I and the putting all your doing I and Melander is to do your next best action. All your targeting these customers with personalized content. You're doing it on that single version of the truth, which is the real time customer profile that powers all of these different clouds. So that it's not like when you do reporting you have one view ofthe a customer. But when you're trying to show them personalized content, half the view is lost because the data was siloed. So we've gone past all of that. There's no data silos now, right? >> Real time customer profile is literally being updated all the time. That's the key in great, exciting part about it is a curious >> kind of philosophically. And execution is like you've been in this space for a long time, and one of the jokes I left shares, you know, we used to make decisions based on a sampling of something that happened in the past. Now you know, we can make decisions based on all of the data that's happening now, but at the same time, your challenges, that source's heir changing all the time. The speed of the input is changing all the time, and the expected return on your reaction is shortening all the time. So from from just a date, a professional and I'm sure it's super exciting and super scary to move that paradigm shift to you got to deliver the right thing right now >> and you know, one of the key things field is that as all of this data was being gathered, right, obviously this data has to be gathered with these events are occurring. So if you look at glands, their customers are global. They are transacting browsing, whether it's on where mobile devices with that land globally around the world. That means data has to be collected from these globally distributed edges. And it has to be brought in processed in real time pending that profile. And as the data keeps coming, the profile is updated right? And and you can't have stained a dying, they're right, because otherwise, you know you are action ing based on something that happened five minutes ago. You know how we've seen that you buy something and you're still getting ads off that same product that you buy even a day or two days late? >> Already bought ten anymore. Ten. >> So that's because that bland has a stale profile off you, right? But if they had the real time customer profile, then there's no way that they would be delivering our action ing based on that stale information. So just like the data was being gathered from edges even when we have to deliver the experiences right. This is where edge computing comes into the picture, right? So we are also taking. So when you look at the whole architecture of the platform, yes, it's based on the cloud and you know it's a big data stack. It's completely assassin offering. But there is also a big edge computing part of the platform, which is where all the hard data is collected. Process and action and to your point, trade, like as we build, say, predictive models on Ex Best action on the data that's on the cloud. The scoring off the models has to happen on the edges where the events are crying. So this is a complicated engineering problem. But that's why I guess we love it. >> Big smile. So the data is critical. So about how adobes changed over the past few years because you guys did clown. I heard the nuance. I heard that keynote, you know, reading through the names of the lines. Is that it? It's hard to get data right at the beginning. Yeah, get cloud right now. You got data rights. Take us through that point because this is where I think the key to success is how to make that data work. Because if you're gonna have open AP eyes and open data integrity, that data right database, it's a time Siri's aircraft dated. A lot of different applications might choose certain technology. Yes, you have to deal with that. How, how important is the texture on that? >> So So that's why that's a great question that, you know, from a platform standpoint, our goal is that we have to be able to answer the questions with the right laden see or speed as well as relevancy, right? So when we talk really time, it's about it's Leighton sees. You know, when you talk to engineers, they only talk agency. But it's not that right. It's needn't see and relevancy. So in order to depending on. Like if it's more like B I r. Reporting kind off questions or queries, you need to organize the data certainly for, you know, single lookups off customers, right? You have to organize the data differently, and that's where our I'd be comes into the picture that how do we partition and organize this data to meet the needs ofthe both operational as well as the more, you know, like analytical kind ofthe workloads. So we support both and to your point, also that, you know, then we need a sequel database where there's no sequel database are a graft database. I mean, those are choices we make, but on top, they're providing FBI's. So we're abstracting all of that from the user. And you know how where we direct question, that's all R ight, but their applications are not going to break because they're writing to the FBI's. So as technologies advance underneath, we make those choices, but again so that they're getting the right agency and relevancy. >> So in the cloud game, we used to talk about this when you when you're on the Cuban way, an IBM the devil's movement was full tilt and they use the term infrastructure is code. Uh, so you're kind of getting out. I want to get your reaction to this Is that if applications and workloads are the use, cases are gonna determine the date of structures, data architecture and Leighton see relevance equation isn't. Then there's a new kind of infrastructures code emerging. Is that data as code? So, or maybe it's this should that workloads dictate what type of data diversity and Leighton see relevance is needed Or is that come from the network again? The question is, workloads are kind of in charge, I guess. What? I'm trying to get out. So >> I Yeah, I would say that, you know, as a platform, you have to support all of these workloads, right? So which means that from an architecture standpoint, we have to make sure that whether it's analytical, kindof a question or workload like B. I reporting whether it is, you know, more like an operational kind ofthe question around, You know that you want to just do a quick question around. You know, what did this customer by or what John's action happened? The underneath data structures and databases we have to pick the right ones so that way are able to support both >> the expectations, the expected yes, the expectations of the workload. >> It is. >> You're running commerce. Leighton Seon Relevance. Low latent. She's going to be in the milliseconds or >> gut ache >> and relevance. Gus, have a high bar there, too. Analytics query for a B. I tool might be, if every second so again, this is a huge Delta in terms of capabilities, and I think that will happen on the flies hard. Yes. How do you guys do that was sauce. >> Yeah, so that's That's the, you know, underlying technology that you know the way we are bending, that is, so that you can support both of those and wait with the customers were sticking to that. They wants equal access to the data they're getting. That's equal access now, depending on the kind ofthe queries, whether they, Paula's B I and reporting are more like transactional kind of things in nature. That's the that. Those are the right technical choices that we're making behind the scenes so that the user, those on our lab print right, because they can really focus on the insights that they're getting and really making decisions based on that inside and not get caught into how to bend all of these different pieces so that they can support both of these work clothes. The other thing is that you know a lot off the time that has Bean spent an I T. Has Bean to figure out all of this so that the CEO can support the line of business like the CMO now by, you know, Adobe taking. Get off this all this. It's heavy lifting. That idea had to do. I think that, you know it will be able to meet the requirements of the line of business much faster. And there's going to be, you know, the agility that is needed to support the business. I think that's really our goal in how we support the CEOs so that they don't worry about all this technology, all the data management, how to collect all this data from globally distributed edges. I mean, that's the partnership that we are, you know, bending with the CEOs so that we help them in their journey off, really helping their line of business deliver the best experiences >> on Jewel. Great to see you having so much fun, Toby. Thank you. What's it like there? Tell us, what's it like working in a job? You got a platform? Certainly. There's a lot of hard problems to solve. So you got that on the engineering side, tell us what the cultures like they're >> doing is a fantastic company. I mean, I just love every bit every every minute that I spend here is fantastic. It's, you know, great people open culture open to new ideas on DH. You know, I guess, uh, >> all the >> creative cloud you know has got the straight of it. Eve itches in fused in people. So it's just it's it's just being a blast and and, you know, people recognize them. Barton's off how data is so critical to delivering those delightful experiences, and it's very rewarding to just see how focused everybody is in the company to really help businesses delight their customers. So it's zygo >> system is great, but the developer ecosystem What's your reaction to that of the >> I mean Adobe Io is I don't know. I feel, you know, Yeah, So that's so if you think of all the creators that work with Adobe products and build their applications, I mean, the ecosystem is very rich. So combined creatives on the data and I t I mean >> so we should call the marketing native like cloud native accomplice of developers, developers. It's coming together >> on DH because >> cats living together I mean, this is >> called wait. Call them that experience maker's late. So we are really bringing experience makers, developers, data, scientists all together >> It's a whole new level for a >> whole new level. It's thanks >> for coming on. Sharing the insights. Cube coverage live here, and it will be some in Las Vegas. I'm John for your jefe. Rick, Stay with us. We're here for two days. We're in day one of wall to wall coverage at Adobe Summit. We write back.

>> Produced from the Cube studios. This's strong by science, in depth conversations about science based training, sports performance and all things health and wellness. Here's your hose, Max Marzo. I'm with >> the one and only Cory Slush Inger Cory is the director of men's sorry, director of performance from men's basketball at Stanford University. Good friend of mine, extremely passionate human. And for those you don't know former college basketball Hooper Corey really happened. Happy on a day to thank you for being here. >> No, man, it's an absolute pleasure. Me, Max. It's It's kind of crazy how our relationship has evolved throughout the years. Ah, start with Diem. You know, that's how it usually goes, the way your T shirt and he's got hair. So I wish I was that God, like I got it down here, but I got it out talk. So don't worry, Max. I'm going to make you a T shirt and I'm sending Teo. You said >> make a T shirt. I >> will wear >> until you plant cast with you again. >> Be careful with the pick. Might be >> way careful with that. Wait. Speaking of that, Corey, I mean, before we went on air here, you have a little story about your beard. And not to say you're only known for the beard, but the beer definitely is a staple in the slashing. Your appearance give me back for that. I want to hear it, and they will dive into some of the science. >> Yeah, man. So as far as the beard, I mean, it started at you. Maybe we're on a Spanish tour went overseas, and I did. One of those crazy handlebar mustache is right. I mean, it was gnarly, but being overseas just didn't shave, right? I mean, we're there for almost a week and a half, and I just started growing out the stubble. And then people are like, keep it going. And so I kept going and we were winning a lot of games. And then we end up winning a championship. And so it became like the tournament beard or became like the season beard. And so I just kept rolling it from there, and yeah, that's that's kind of where the beard is stated for now. And then when I realized, like if I could, it almost looks like a cancer patient. So I needed a key because he's blond eyebrows, man from five feet away. It looks like I'm ball period like I can't grow here. So, yeah, that's where the beard states is at this point. >> Well, Iet's fifty. I'm getting mine going. I'm not going to your caliber. I keep it trimmed, but it makes me feel like I'm a scientist or something. If I have a beard, makes you more intelligent, but getting off the topic here. When it comes to developing anybody, people say, you know, athletes, athletes, athletes athletes are what zero point zero zero one percent of population when it comes to developing anybody at all. We got talking about the bass aspects of human movement human development. You have an interesting take on this, and I don't want to spoil it for the listeners. I'd rather have you say it first, cause I'll just bastardized and screw it up. You're going to take on developing anybody regardless if they're an athlete or just general population, >> right? I mean, if you look through human evolution one or two things that we used to do, I used to farm. We used to kill things with our hands. We used to climb, you know, we used to throw things, you know? I mean, look at the the early Olympics, right? I mean, that's basically what the events wass. He wrestled someone. You ran faster than someone. You ran further than someone, and you threw some things. I and basically that's what human capacity is. So my goal before we actually trained them to be better athletes, is to make them better humans first, because if I can express their ability to be a better human, then they will be able to express their ability to be a better athlete. >> Joshua and with those movements, selections. If you have unique choice food people who don't follow up Instagram better weigh on your instagram handle at the end. But the selections of exercises you pick, it's not traditional a sense. Let's load a bar up. Let's do a hand claim you really take ownership of different shaped objects for that way, whether it be a yoke, whether it be a kettle bell, how do you come up with the most movements? Elections? What goes into that decision making? And for any individual out there, whether they are fast ball player who's seven one or a guy who's five eight, how do you decide which of those implements are best fitted for you? >> Well, everything that shaped the way I believe is one hundred ten percent based off my environment. And look, I played college basketball. Don't look at my stats. I was not that good, but I trained in or I've played with, and now for ten years I've trained that basketball athletic population, so you can imagine with me. Okay, I'm five foot ten. Very average, at best, especially with my links, man. Now imagine six foot six, but a seven foot two weeks man and all those things that I was good at, clean snatched jerk. You know, I was a purist in the beginning. I mean, of course I was right. I was just learning what strength iss How to be strong. Now, I'm trying to imagine further. Like, how do I have impact? How do I have quote unquote transfer? What? I'm trying to load these freaks. I mean, these guys are not normal human beings, right? They got seven foot two wings fans and short torso, so their levers are crazy. So now I'm asking them to do the same things that got me strong. Being at five. Ten, it just doesn't make much sense to me now, Not saying they don't have the capacity to do it mean help. Be honest with you. Some of my best weightlifters actually been seven foot tall, But that being said, if there's a way I can load them, that makes a lot more sense. That's easy to teach. I could do it often, and it's right in their comfort zone now, not comfort as in like we're not training hard, but like in their center of mass, where they can actually manipulate loads heavy loads at that with decent speeds. Then, yeah, I'm going to do that. So, for instance, we look at a bar bell, clean snatches all good. Why can't we do the same intent with a trap door? I mean, we could still pull. We could still triple extend and then we can still catch in that power position. The only thing that changes is the complexity of the movement. Now I'm not manipulating myself around a straight bar bell. It's in my centre of mass. And now I, Khun Express quote unquote force. Ah, lot more efficient, Effective. So now I can load it more loaded faster and do less teaching. Yeah, I do that. That makes a lot of things So that's really what it came from. And then to be honest with you, But how do you experience that light? How do you know a seven foot feels like? How do you know? And so you know, I've dabbled town some ways too. Open up my consciousness, if you will, to allow me to feel that ord, allow the imagination, my creativity to tryto understand what that could feel like. And then, of course, obviously feedback from my athletes. But I mean, why you always see, like the old school dues were just like, Oh, this is weak. This is squad. We we box what we what do we do? Whatever to get strong. But it's like, you know, it makes sense. If you're five foot six, it doesn't make much sense if your seven foot tall so you've got a truly find ways to experience it yourself. And now by the means that you do that probably not going to talk about on this podcast. But the way I did it work. >> Yeah, well, we'll refrain from diving that specific. I'd appreciate it on because to each his own one of the things you mentioned like talking about Hooper's I played basketball. I played your Batch three point shooter. Anyone's listening, too, By the way, when my feet are set, I'm not. I'm not an athlete, but I could shoot the shit out of basketball. I'LL be very blunt with you. I've >> been on the receiving end of that on one of our own game. You don't have to talk when you busted my ask way >> down to like. A lot of basketball players are bad movers, and what I mean by that it's their very good when you put a ball in their hands. That is something you talked about, too. But when you get them in a dance room right there, a lot different than football players and I mean by that is you don't see a bad end zone celebration, right? Want touchdown dances look really good, Odell Beckham being very soon and a lot of it's because those patterns are done without a ball in their hand. This is my opinion and they're very primal and natural with a minute and basketball everything's doing the ball in their hand and then when they start to move, especially because they're developing this, you starts. We're like a third rate. Now they have to only play basketball. And typically you don't play football and basketball, especially football. The high level, because you know you prepping for the basketball season itself. >> You get that deal in Scotland. Shit, bro, >> You have to play basketball for every waking hour the next fifteen years to get there. I'm kidding, but I'm thinking about my head is we're not exposed to those different movement. Parents were stuck in this ninety foot unless you're how light is forty six feet, something like that with court that really constrains how we move. And then you put someone in a waiting room where all the son of dealing with external loads and very unique movement patterns you get guys who just looked walking and I think you talked about this on different podcast, but I want to get into a little bit. Here was, I think so. That stems from our coaching of a young athletes and our physical education that we no longer does. Have we used to have back in the day and how that's really affecting athletes as they get older. >> I couldn't agree more. I mean, I get these quote unquote specialized athletes. And to be honest with you, I don't have athletes like I have guys who have a basketball in their hand. They got really long levers and they have some skill, right? They have some skill to be able to go from point A to point B and put on orange round ball into a cellar. That's that's so happen to be ten foot off the ground. That's what I have. I don't have a true athlete who can pick things up off the floor who could sit down on the floor and stand up, who can throw things who can sprint, who could jump onto things. I mean, some of the best vertical jumps that you see in basketball are not even close to what you would see in football and track and field. When you think this is a sport with the high flyers counter movement, jump hands on hips averages that I've seen on teams eighteen inches and everybody is like Oh, that's terrible But that's a true counter movement jump with long levers. So now if we add some momentum to that and add a seven foot two wingspan and then all of a sudden their elbows above the ramp. Right? So that's the difference we get. We see this a NRI or this false thought, or this false vision of what athleticism is because they're so long. But in reality. And then you put a bunch of cornerbacks out there that would be really special to see, because these are guys that are like five foot ten and the most explosive fast dude you've ever seen. There's don't have the skill to play basketball. So you know, with the way we are, physical education is set up now, obviously has been chopped in half, half, half so no more education. Physical education is what we get to. They only play one sport. They sit in chairs that they're not really made to be. They live in this wart western society where every chair they sit in Is that it? His ninety, which for them is more like this, right? And then they get up and down on these beds that their feet are hanging off of. So I don't know what sleep looks like for that. And if you saw my guys get on an airplane, a commercial airplane, you would be cringing the entire time because they're literally bundled up like this. And so not on ly. Are we trying to correct childhood development? I'm trying to correct what they deal with on a daily basis. Just walking the class. We watching my guys duck through door frames constantly. It is like some some of them are guards and they're ducking through frames. And you're just like I don't know how you've made it this far without knocking yourself out. So there's so many that it's really all about the environment and her. When I've trained my athletes, it's all about giving them the environment they have never had. So that's why we utilize the resting room. The gymnastics room. It's soft had so they know, so they don't necessarily fear the ground. They don't fear their interactions gravity. So now I'm giving them the ability to learn how to change levels. You know, little guys. So I don't see six foot ten guys wrestling, right? So I have an opportunity. Now they learn how to interact and change levels, and then even more so you put somebody with them. So now we're like pushing and pulling, just like you see in football. So now they know where they put their feet. So now we're not stepping on feet constantly looking. I mean, God, Hey, these guys are like because sixteen seventeen shoes like, of course, I'm going to step on each other's speed. But if they have that awareness in that sense of where other people are, then maybe they don't make that misstep. Or maybe they get their self out of harm's way and then even more so just learning how to fall. They learn how to fall properly from standing toe floor transitions. Then, when they jumped through the air at forty two inch words, whatever you see, that's make believe for you. Switch vertical right word, but and then they get hit in the air, and now they've got to figure out the most effective way. Not the break there. Nash. Well, most of the guys are going to do everything they can to stay on their feet. Well, that's where you want to get blown out, right? So now if I can give them a tumbling strategy, so now that they can interact with the floor a lot more smoother, athletic, well, then maybe they have a chance to not get hurt and be be back in the action, right? So it's performance enhancing as well as injury mitigation. >> I >> know that. I mean, I don't know where to begin. I have about nine comments off that. First. I love the idea of talking about how these guys are living in a world built for some one, five, ten. I'm six two and Kelsey, my girlfriend. But, hey, can you reach above and grab the top? Can apostle whatever I'm like? Yeah, Okay. But you look at a guy until you actually play hoops. I think, and really appreciate how big these dudes are. You play. It's a guy who's seven one. You look at him and go, Oh, my gosh, like that's at a different human. And then you know his shoe size next to you and you shake his hand and you get to the other side of his hand. You start to understand, like, who we dealing with here, right? You look at these, you know the body needs to heal when it goes into a stress or whatever, and we're putting these guys in positions that the body would not otherwise deem for recovery right now, like this call. Time out. Is that the funniest thing? MBA timeouts. Aside from LeBron James, that's got the nine foot chair right? These guys come out and these will stools that are too small for meaning, and >> so they're not really >> rusting. And you got a dude who's trying to recover his heart rate, but really the whole time, he's in a hip flexion. He's never been in the past, you know, thirty years, right? And if you're thinking about really taking care of an athlete, we spend so much time in the weight room and all this great stuff we can do. So Muchmore. If we had a liberty, too, I use we usually more like you, um, to you, then develop an environment that conducive to them. I know University. Kentucky did that. If you look at their dorm rooms, they had ESPN going on two years ago when they built at the new facility. For the basketball players, the sinks were higher, the magical tired, they were longer. And if you ever wash a guy who's seven foot dragging on the water fountain, I mean the amount of spinal flexion he has to go under. It's ridiculous. The guy's curling up in a C. And I mean, that's crazy to think about because the whole time on the way we were talking about how do we get these guys in a position that they can function successfully? And right now it's like optimally because obviously would have been something we did fifteen years ago to get in a position, right? But how do we get them to be successful? So I pose the question to your court. I'm gonna give you the keys to the castle. The kingdom. Okay, Philip, um, maybe not the whole environment. But there's three things you like to change the outside of the weight room that you had the crystal ball and you could go either back in time more just socially. Okay. I want to change his guys. You know, the size of his car. You know that the chair he sits and we're three things that you pick and dio >> number one. I would get them involved and dance or martial arts as their first sport. That would be probably number one so or gymnastics something. I don't care how tall you are like Who cares if you're not trying Win a gold medal at three, Right? Is just learning how to do those things right? Understanding your body number two. I would change how physical education is and in western society, um, and then number three. Let's give you something actual physical number three. If I could make what? I >> got some for you. Well, you're thinking, OK, I got you want to think your third for me? Basketball players eat horribly. You're so single, teacher. Yeah, basketball players, at least by team. And I will make this universal blanket statement. They just don't like to eat for some reason. Right? Who for? Three hours and drinking game and call it good. And I don't get it like I have a fat ass. My play. I gained weight in season. Really? Team he'll know what a food I take over which you're pulling their postgame meals. And that's when they remove the snack girl. Remember the snack role when, uh, >> you know, you have todo I had Taco Bell, bro. Like we won. We got talking about, you know? So I asked the level Appalachia, which we suck. >> I think I'm going to go a little. Can't you apologize? We're going to go play and that's a D three hoops. That's finest. We're rolling to a game. It's up north took a four hour drive and we stopped at the rude crib an hour and a half before taking a corner booth buffet of ribs. They got a bunch of island boys here. The rib crib you bring up platters were basically, you know, and capacity. And when they get like five points because our center had to pull out the throat at halftime. >> Yeah, it is. Did you ever have to drive the team ban? Because I have ways in the backseat in the bag who thought that was, like level once again, level athlete, that unreal. But I would say that the third thing Don't be wrong. Yes, food. But if there's a way, I mean, if there's a truly economical way across the board to just look, it got health, we could do that, don't care. But I can change your environment that could change your internal environment and will, And the number one is if I can just poof your gut and I can look at everything, then that will be the number one, because just a little moving world. But I don't know how you're absorbing it. I don't know what's going on. And then you wantto talk about these kids that you know, a phD or these kids that are super restless. Well, I think it starts with the gut, because if you're got health sucks, so does this. So that would be the third thing. >> No, that's crazy That way. May I have a little bit of experience is our company. I don't deal with the actual read now that the things I've learned and seeing the idea of taking that integrated approach. So hey, let's actually look at your stomach. Yes, you have to collect your poop three times a day, and I'm sorry. If you're going to do that, you can start to look at what you produced and way of excreting and whether or not you're absorbing what you need to absorb. And we start looking at injuries and no tendon, health and muscle tissue, everything as a holistic approach. What? We gotta look at the internal environment if any of our environments messed up inside and we're trying to impose a stressor on the body. But we have no idea what the internal systems like, and you have certain deficiencies or certain aspects that your lack and these were certain areas where it again people go, Oh, that's not scientific. There's no study. Well, unfortunately, if you understand complex systems and their dynamic interactions and not to get too detail, I'Ll explain it as simple as I can. But what happens is we have an outcome like a strange angle, and we say, Oh, and go weak angle get hurt, right? Well, kind of grooming. Or maybe it's ankle week. That's a risk factor. Athlete didn't sleep enough the past three nights. Risk factor Athlete had some sort of physical contact during the game. That critter there system risk factor athlete. Nutritionally, it wasn't recovering from previous workouts and games. Risk factors so happens of all these risk factors, and that's just a very there's no all the risk factors. A lot involved, all but these risk factors come about and then we have the probabilistic nature of something toe happen. So oh, how likely is it that something bad will go wrong and we see the last straw on the camel's back sprain an ankle and we go a week. But maybe it's didn't sleep enough Ankle week. All this other stuff and that ankle sprain. For people interested in complex systems, it's called an emergent pattern. So there's a common pattern that occurs when you have things go wrong. So if the money C l it's like, Oh, gluten medias is weak knee Val Agus. All right, you're a muscular control all these things that go into and nothing can pinpoint it. So if we're including these bomber, you know about mechanical factors and Eve Alvis, why aren't we including some internal factors like gut health Or, you know, the blood wood for the micro nutrient efficient season? Yes, I know I'm not versed enough to speak on micronutrient deficiencies and our interactions off, you know, health and whatnot. But something as simple as college in environments haven't adequate vitamin C for, you know, ten and healing instead of, you know, repair is obviously a factor. And so when we start looking the bottom, we gotta look at the big picture. It's not just how your knee bends. It's not how you shoot a jump shot. It's not how you land every time. >> Where are you? Our body is so much more resilient and durable than you. Give it credit for me. We've survived as a species. We're a very long time. You're very harsh conditions and you're going to tell me it's that one jump that got you one job. One job is the one that Oh, that needs a little dalliance. That's the one that got you. I mean, if you super slow mo A lot of these great expressions of physical capacity in sport it was you would be like, Oh, my God, they're neither this there that But in reality, like that's I'm close to the reason why they like break or don't Break. And Jordan shallow, brilliant dude, He gave me this metaphor. He was saying to Philip, a pond, Well, it's like this fungus that will Philip a pond and it doubles its size every day. So if it starts off it like, you know, point two, then the next day be point for and he asked me, he's like, Okay, if it's going to Philip in thirty days, Philip, the whole pond, What's the day? It's half full. Then I thought for a second it took me a lot longer than I should have thought about it. But he's like, but he an injection goes day twenty nine. I >> don't want an answer, by the way. >> Yeah, was like Day twenty nine I. That's why I look at the human body like that is literally the last thing and then pull. And so it's all these. We could have had all these interventions from day to today twenty eight or day twenty nine. Even the notes that one just last. Ah, strong. The camel's back to just there goes, you know, And that's what's great about being in the collegiate setting. And being a Stanford is we have a lot of safety nets for our safety, and that's if you will. So we try to have as many quote unquote KP eyes and objective measurements to give us an idea of what could possibly happen. But in reality, it's still the dynamic environment, so I don't understand. Like I can't account for school. I can't account for their sleep. I mean, we could through, like, grouper or or whatever, but it's not realistic and thine and are setting and in their gut hell's like way picking up poop. Three times a day. They were not drawn blood once. We're not doing these things. So unless we're doing that, then you're just trying to create most resilient, durable human beings so they can withstand the stressors some more than others. But hopefully have a successful season. >> No, that's like I hate to break it to people. We don't know what we're doing. We're doing our best. I think chase Wells with him. A Stanford. Get a great line, he said. We can't guarantee success. We can almost guarantee you're not guaranteed to fail. And what I mean by that is that you can't always KP eyes and really, we're looking at. If you jump nine inches, we're probably not going to be very good basketball unless you're seven. No, right. And so we're looking at the human system as a means of understanding what is going on really lagged behind in regards to your performance assessment and what might be hindering you in regards to launch into no tracking? Can I get a little bit of data? A lot? The way explain it is kind of like I don't ask my girlfriend Kelsey, how she's doing. Once a week, you know. I asked her every day and why I asked that every day is to realize, you know, all my clothes that I left out pissing her off. You know, I did. I forget that we're supposed to go on a date last night. You know, I might not have forgot a wallet last night. We went to dinner from now on, Accent, all supposed to buy. But that's a true story. WeII >> brought up. I mean, that's the most important thing is you gotta have feedback daily, right? And wait here. It's really simple. We take a controlled environment, do some things in it before they go into a dynamic environment, which is basketball games of basketball practice. So what we do is we call that microdot. It's our way of training. Every day, in some form or fashion, these individuals come into their work, their human capacity, a Siri's, if you will. Then after that, they go into their B series, which is complex. This is really what I know what's going on. I don't get me wrong when they walk in to get their weight, are joking or making eye contact and get that handshake. How firm is that handshake thes air, All the quantitative things that I'm trying to pick up as they're coming through the door. Then you watch them say We're hitting clean, complex and they're going through the motions and their consulate changing grip or or the pool isn't looking too good, and any sharp today will boom. That's my control Now. It's not the most objective feedback, but at least it's a constant. And so that's my way of having once against safety nets from a safety nets and then weekly or depending on how many games we have that we do, our force plate jumps. So once again, another safety net, and then we have our connects on day. So our GPS data that they do on the practice gym once again any one of those in isolation doesn't tell me much. But if I have a bunch of them, then I can at least paint a better picture from quantitative qualitative, and then I can go and knit. Pick what I think they're intervention may need to be, and so it's not going to be perfect, not even close, but as long as you have a constant and yours is beautiful. Like you said, Just something simple. You get daily. Hey, how are you doing? And you know how they express that. I'm doing good. I'm doing good. I'm cool. I'm great. Like, you know, what there was in flux is are like, you know what? They're how they're truly feeling. Just based off that one question alone. But once again, if you can set up your system or your program or whatever toe have safety nets for your safety nets, then I think you can You can catch a >> lot of those along the way. >> Yeah. No, that makes sense. It's how you provide context to a situation. And the more information that we can apply that we didn't classifier more to a system like jumping is, you know, your lower body strength and your verbal expressions, your most emotional state on DH, maybe even sweep or other things that go into that, the more we could understand what's actually happening to the person. So I was kind of really bad for a second. You said some of micro dose in and term overdose. You refer into training a little bit often. Yep. And Corey is well known for this and for those at home listening, I'm going to my best to explain it. Short weeks. I got a question off of it. If you know, explains it will stay here for another hour and a half because great to listen to. But I want Teo a little bit of a different direction off of athletics about it. Firstly, micro doses the idea that we're applying a moderate level toe, low level stressor consistently, and that adaptation occurs from the aggravation off those dresses over a period of time. So we're never going to Hi, we're never going to low. And the idea is that training in the weight room is only one small piece of your life. They even programmed High Day, and you don't sleep that night or you have emotional stressor for your case, your practice. Then all of a sudden, that high, big, magnified and starts spilling over the bar and becomes too much the idea of micro dozing, especially a non controlled external environment where it's called life, and we're trying to apply enough that you can handle. If someone's feeling good, then they can push a little bit that they themselves. Now My question for you, Cory, is I love an athletic sense. I also see it being very applicable to anyone out there general population and especially in terms of I got two things. Us too. In terms of one, someone learned a movement. You get a chance to do it often and daily and someone who wants to learn how to be in the weight room. And secondly, because there are, let's say we do it eight out of ten days. If you only miss one day, you're only missing ten percent of your entire workout, right? So instead of doing looking at this whole one workout one day, you look at like a ten day period. If you got eight days of pick from and you just can't do one, you only missed ten percent versus if you only had five days of pick one and you miss one, you missed twenty percent, right? And so now we have the ability to be more flexible in our environment. So how does that fit in like a general population? If it was my dad or my girlfriend trying to learn howto use some of this micro dose in the weight room. How do you plan? >> So one hundred percent with micro dozing. The reason why it came about was it was a solution to a problem. My problem is I don't have enough exposure to my guys. So how do I create more training frequency? And now we got rid of warm up something that was just kind of getting them ready for practice. That kind of don't care about it. The coach hated seen me do it. I personally hated doing it. So now it was a solution. What it turned into was motor learning. Now you want to learn how to train, will do it all the time. So that's where complex comes in. It's the value of orcs work, right? So basically, you take a bar bill and you do every movement that you would do in a weight room, in some sense, in one set, so you'd hinge You do a hip flexion. You do a press, do a pool. If I break down each one of those into isolation, it would look like already else Squad, Polish, military, press or row, those air all movements that you would do and if you separated each exercise in an isolation you would go more resistance on, just like you would see in general fitness, right? Like we're going to do three sets of ten on bench press or three sets a tent on back squad. Well, that's great. How about we just put it all in one and now we have more exposure. So now I'm learning how to do the movements, and then you can't tell me that doing one thing once a week is actually going to make you learn the movement. So now you learn those little small video sequences that you see with thirty year experience power lifters who truly understand, like, move from body, this foot stance, or this is how I start to hinge here within my squat X degree. And that's how they perfected is because they have so much exposure to it. So we're doing the same thing. We're just trying to create exposure at lower thresholds and and in doing it often now as faras general population, what's the number one concern? But I don't have enough time. Oh, really? You don't have a thirty minute today, twenty to thirty minutes a day to not kind ofwork. Now. Every day I call B s. I say You just don't want to train. So that's where my producing to me is beautiful in the general population is because it's living the way you start your day. It's lunch, or it's when you get off work. Perfect. You can pick any of those three slots twenty, thirty minutes. You can eat and shower and get backto work or before work. So you can't tell me that everybody doesn't have that situation. So now, creating training frequency, you're getting enough volume throughout the week. Now we have on and then most importantly, like you brought up if I just had to miss that one day, it's ten percent of my training like it's not well, only train twice a week, So fifty percent of my training is gone. So that's where I think it's beautiful. And that's where he could work from general population to the most elite athletes in the world and the reason why I say the most elite athletes in the world because I just so happen to train to of So I do it with all these populations