>> Announcer: Live from San Francisco, celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage, it's theCUBE, covering VMworld 2019. Brought to you by VMware and it's Ecosystem partners. >> Hey welcome back, everyone. Live CUBE coverage here at VMworld 2019. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, hosts of theCUBE here in two sets. We're on the main set. The set over there, Dave Vellante's hosting. This morning, we have two great guests here. Bob Ganley, who's Cloud Marketing at Dell EMC. John Allwright, Director of Product Marketing at Pivotal. We got operators, we got development experts here. Guys, thanks for joining us. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, excited to be here. >> John: Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you, it's great to be here. >> So the show, VMworld, we're obviously an operators' show, one of the things that's really interesting is the Dell EMC equation of VMware on Dell EMC. You're seeing the piece parts coming together. The Pivotal acquisition, you're in Product Marketing over there, so I'm sure you got to perspective on the dots that connect there, even though the acquisition's a couple days old. Let's start with Dell EMC. Michael was on yesterday. I said, "You guys were number one in all the metric quadrants." You know, this, that, servers. As you've got to pull that together on-premises, where the Data Center is nearly going away and the Edge has emerged, you got to have an operating model that's got to be cloud. And that's really seems to be the focus, clearly. >> Yeah, absolutely. What we see is that customers today are trying to deliver value through applications. And it's all about apps, because apps is where that value gets delivered to the customer. So, as organizations are trying to deliver those applications, the question becomes what's the best place to put the app. So right workload, right cloud is a big thing for us. Clearly, organizations have been adopting public cloud in droves. What we see is that they're trying to figure out how do they get that public cloud infrastructure to work with what they're doing on-prem. What we're bringing to the table, is a solution called Dell Technologies Cloud. We're super-excited about bringing together private and public in a hybrid cloud solution in a way that provides consistent infrastructure and consistent operations. As you guys have seen, everybody's excited about next-generation apps, right? So now, where are we going with next generation apps? That's really what this show is all about. >> Bob, I'm so glad you brought up the apps. Because we often, my background's infrastructure, and we get down in the weeds as to what's doing, and, like, oh we architected this better and chipsets and all these things there. But it's that modernization that customers are going through. Can you pick us through, what are the patterns you're seeing? One term I'd used for a while is, modernize the platform and then modernize the apps. Is that it? Containerization, where do all these pieces fit, again, when they're talking about their application development? >> It's interesting because every customer's on an application journey. We all started in physical, right? I was a software developer right out of college. Working with physical infrastructure is where it's at. Organizations have clearly adopted virtualization. And most organizations are now trying to pivot toward how do I get more efficiency, more agility, for my virtualized applications. That's really where infrastructure as a service, and IT as a service is adding a lot of value today. So, the question becomes, as I'm working with my existing virtualized applications, and now looking at next generation apps and developing those, how am I going to bring that along? We see this physical to virtual to infrastructure as a service, to container as a service, as being a very logical progression for customers. >> Well, certainly it's absolutely standardized now. Containers, since Docker hit the scene. Containers had been around for a while. You talk to anyone with development, oh, containers, put a wrapper around things, it's kind of a known concept. John, I want to get your thoughts, because one of the things about Dev Ops in the Cloud 1.0 was, clearly the cloud native world was obvious. If you were a startup, you were born in the cloud, it was all goodness. You didn't have on-premise to deal with. You just did everything. The operator was the developer, right? So, Cloud 2.0 is a little bit more complicated. And we're seeing that the trend where the infrastructure has to be enabling for the developer, and that has been a key thing. But what's interesting is, in Cloud 2.0, as we're calling it, the world is flipped upside down. It used to be the infrastructure would dictate what the application developers could do, based upon what the capabilities were, to now the application developers dictating resources below them to be on demand, or elastic, or one cloud, two clouds. So the application's dictating configuration and architecture, either dynamically or specifically. Not limited to what is rolled out. So this relationship between infrastructure and developers is evolving very quickly. I would love to get your thoughts on how you see it. You've been around the block on this point. >> I mean, Pat had a great slide in the Keynote, which kind of put Kubernetes as in between developers and operators. I think the way that is evidenced itself is that Kubernetes has been something that's been driven down from developers. They're saying, this is the infrastructure that we want to run our applications. Working at the levels that typically infrastructure is provided. There's too much work for them to do. So in some cases, they were packaging up Kubernetes with their applications and saying to the infrastructure folks, hey, deploy this. I think we've now kind of crossed the point where Infrastructure go, well this is a thing and I need to provide that. So things like Project Pacific, or a recognition that, yeah, why not bake that into the infrastructure? So Kubernetes is kind of Dev Ops, materialized in a product. >> Yeah, it was interesting. I had an interview yesterday. We've been watching Kubernetes since the beginning. But the way they described it is, Kubernetes is really the new server. It's like I can spin up that environment in a much shorter period of time. Which, of course, was part of the value proposition of going to containerization. Project Pacific is, you're going to take your install base of VMs and give them that bridge to the future. Pivotal also, if I wanted to just do it in the public cloud, you've got the options there. Correct? What I'd love, John, if you can help tease us out the Kubernetes message. If I take VMware plus Pivotal and Heptio and all the pieces, help us sort through the fog a little bit. >> The thing that's become very clear to us at Pivotal and, I think, in the industry is that Kubernetes is now becoming an expected default. Whereas maybe before it was VMs, that's the basic foundation that I'm going to build my workers, my applications on. Now it's Kubernetes. And whether I'm building custom applications or a vendor is supplying me with something as a container images in a pod, that's kind of the default. So the big thing about the announcers from the Keynote was that's really what we're working to. In something like Tanzu Mission Control, now distracts you away from necessarily where those Kubernetes are appearing, whether that is on-prem or in the public cloud. Let's you work across a foundation that actually appears in a lot of different places. >> The impact of Mission Control. Just drill down on that for a second, because that demo was pretty sweet. Just take a minute to explain the relevance of having the view of all those Kubernetes clusters across the cloud and what it means to the operator. Because that was an interesting demo. >> Yeah, so the analogy I use, and it doesn't fit exactly, but it's kind of like power stations in a grid. With a lot of products, things like SoS with PKS, have been creating the power stations that let you run Kubernetes, but the power is really in having the grid. So Mission Control gives you the grid. It lets you do operations across Kubernetes wherever they are. But also do things like migrations. We talk about Enterprise PKS being a really good start point of getting into this new world of Pacific and everything. And it's actually Tanzu Mission Control that enables that. It's like VMotion for containers, almost. >> It is such an important piece, because every platform is going to have Kubernetes, and while VMware is going to have some Kubernetes, it's not going to have all Kubernetes. So if I've got some in Amazon, and I'm using Anthos over here, we'd love to have that management platform that gives me visibility. Bob, I just want to bring it back to you here. In the industry, we've had time and time again where we want to manage a heterogeneous environment. It's been Don Quixote chasing after that dream. Tell us how do we pull that together and where do we live? >> I think you guys were talking about the fact that developers expect this Kubernetes dial tone today, and that's driving infrastructure choices. One of the things that we need to do as infrastructure people is make that real. In other words, it's all well and good to develop an application on a Kubernetes infrastructure, but now how do I turn that into a production service that is helping me drive revenue, for example. What we need to do is operationalize that, in a way that can bring that to life, and bring that to life in a production way. That's really where we're going with PKS, on VCF, on VxRail. So PKS on VCF allows organizations to actually automated fashion deploy a Kubernetes cluster. So what that does is allow organizations to now suddenly bring their investment in what they've been doing in virtualization today, and bring that toward this next generation containerized-based applications. This is key because in order to, for example, stand up a Kubternetes cluster, and then make that into a production service, there's just tons of moving parts. So why not automate that in a fashion that essentially takes all of the stress out of that Day Zero. And then, furthermore, when it comes to Day Two, and making sure that's up to date, making sure that you can patch that. For example, if there's a critical bug, you want to be able to do that in an automated fashion as well, because there's just so many moving parts that it's impossible to keep track of all this stuff manually. >> Bob, there's so many changes that go through when we're moving to that environment where it's going to change a lot more. We think about management. It used to be, oh, okay, I know where the server lives. Wait, VMs fly all over the place with VMotion of containers, by the time you go looking for it, it feels like it's trying to measure the speed and direction of an atom. You can't pin it down. But the one I want to get you, from a customer along that journey, the consumption model has to be something that is changing along the lines. How does the infrastructure, how do we make sure it can scale like the cloud, and how can I pay for it like that, that flexible model? >> That's pretty interesting, because we see a couple of things. Organizations come to us and say, I'm all in uncloud. Okay, what do you mean you're all in uncloud? Well, there's two things that come out, right? One is elastic capacity, the ability to expand as needed. The other one is metered use. In other words, I only want to pay for this stuff when I'm actually using it. We're providing a couple of ways to get there today with Dell Technologies Cloud. One is this Data Center as a Service offering that we've been discussing, which is VMware Cloud on Dell EMC. The other one is flex on demand, and flex on demand is an offer that we'll bringing to the table for traditional customer-managed infrastructure that allows organizations to essentially only pay for the nodes that they're using in their on-premises cluster. We believe that being able to deliver that, whether it's on-prem with traditional infrastructure, or in a public cloud environment, which organizations clearly have voted with their dollars on, is key. So that's what we're bringing to the table with Dell Tech Cloud. >> It's clear you guys are building that out and running as fast as you can (laughing) to get it done. The final thought I want to get your guys to weight in on, the show this week. What's the big takeaway from your perspective? Obviously Pivotal is big news into the fold with VMware is going to be a really strategic opportunity for VMware to go that next level with developers and then figuring out, connecting the dots there. What's the top stories that you're seeing, that people, that you're walking away with from the show this week? >> For me, it's really you don't have to choose. In other words, organizations are looking at containerization and saying, wow, next generation applications are going there. Maybe I should be shifting everything over there. And yet they're saying, gosh, I've got all this existing infrastructure, what am I going to do? So really, PKS on VCF is allowing organizations to say, I can have existing virtualized apps living right next to my emerging containerized applications, and use existing infrastructure, existing skills in order to get there. And I think really you don't have to choose. You've got a path forward from where you are today, into this next generation of cloud-native applications is really exciting, and that's what we're >> John, your thoughts. >> bringing to the table. >> I think organizations, customer organizations, need to re-evaluate who VMware is, and what they can do for them. Pivotal's always been about business outcomes for our customers, and those outcomes come through developing software to drive the business. VMware has reached out to developers in the past, but that's really on steroids now. >> They've really had a ton of success there because they're operators. But they've always been a software company. VMware is, at heart, a software company. >> Right, but I always think of marketing as save money, make money (laughing) but go faster. VMware's been amazing at helping folks to save money, go faster. >> I think the Pivotal relationship's going to be really important for VMware. I think it's going to completely change the game. We'll be tracking the progress. Thanks for sharing, thanks for coming on. Thanks for the insight, here on theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, and more of the live coverage from Vmworld 2019 after this short break. (techno music)

from the silicon angle media office in Boston Massachusetts it's the queue now here's your host David on tape hi everybody welcome to this breaking analysis this is Dave Volante and VMware announced yesterday its quarterly results and it also announced the acquisition of two companies pivotal which was the news was broken before of the earnings announcement but also carbon black a Walton Massachusetts based security company and you may be wondering what the hell is VM we are up to what are they doing and I want to sort of unpack that and explain it to you from my perspective so pivotal and carbon black are getting paid 2.7 billion and 2.1 billion dollar respectively is the value of those deals so VMware is paying an enterprise value to sales ratio of 3.8 and 7x respectively for pivotal and carbon black the motivation here in my view is really to clean up pivotal I'm going to explain that in a second and also to increase VMware's cloud multi cloud and recurring revenue contributions today the SAS business of VMware is only about 12% of the company's revenue so they want to increase that because they want to have a cloud like model and recurring revenue the challenge for a company like VMware who's largely based on perpetual license models upfront get paid for the whole license and then you do some maintenance is it's like a heroin injection you get the big rush of cash whereas with the recurring revenue model you're streaming out over and deferring it over a twelve or thirty six month or 24 month period and so the revenue impact is somewhat negative on the income statement and that's putting a little bit pressure on the stock but VMware management understands that that long term it's a much more predictable and attractive business model to be a SAS company than it is to be a traditional license based perpetual license based software company now the pivotal deal is somewhat complicated and of course when Michael Dell's involved we tend to have these complicated transactions as organization is very savvy in terms of from a financial standpoint we saw that remember when Michael Dell and Silverlake bought a EMC for 67 billion dollars they shelled out only only four billion dollars of their own cash now they took out a lot of debt but it was a very interesting and complicated financial transaction so part of this is cleaning up some of that transaction that all I'll explain in my opinion VMware is getting a pretty good deal for both pivotal and a decent deal for carbon black so so let me explain first of all Alex if you would bring up the the chart on pivotal let's take a look at it now you can see here you know pivotal did its IPO you know last year a when IPO is I think that we know close to a four billion dollar valuation and you can see the stock is not performed well subsequent to that it you know it was never able to get back to its IPO price it had a you know decent uptick you know in in March of this year as the market was running up and you can see the earnings miss in in the late spring early summer back in the June announcement date big hit there the company's been struggling in the marketplace you know it's got a lot of assets remember pivotal was originally put together as a collection of what I used to call misfit toys some of the EMC assets some of the VMware assets they put together at Palmer its you know created this entity to try to create a platform for application development Michael Dell saw this as an opportunity to take it public and actually you know create another asset in part of the Dell family but you can see here post June you know the the decline in the stock price and then you see the announcement from VMware or the rumor that came out actually was an announcement that came out in the press this week and the stock jumped over 70% on a day when the Dow dropped 800 points but you can see now the the today's price it was fourteen eighty eight when I took this snapshot about 50 cents on the dollar from the IPO price and so you can see that that VMware and Michael Dell are kind of doing the top cat they did the IP that pulled the coin back and now they're gonna repurchase the stock so kind of interesting but here's what the interesting part is VMware is only paying nine hundred million dollars in cash to the public shareholders how can that be so here's the deal vmware already owns about 15% of pivotal where dell owns about 70 percent of the company so what's happened l controls 95 percent of the voting shares which is why you know one of the reasons why this stock really never took off it's one of those one of those ownership structures and governance structures where you know a single individual really controls the stock so that often times keeps stock prices down but nonetheless Dells 70% is being exchanged for VMware stock for pivotal stocks that are owned by Dell so let me read you the statement Alex if you could bring up that statement from the earnings call this is from the VMware a CFO explaining the mechanics with regards to pivotal VMware has agreed to acquire a pivotal at a blended price per share of eleven dollars and 71 cents comprised of $15 per share in cash to public stockholders that's why the stock is trading at 14 dollars and 88 cents today and a little bit of arbitrage flowed in there and VMware's Class B common shares exchange for pivotal Class B common shares held by Dell technologies in an exchange rate of point zero five five VMware shares for each pivotal share the transaction has an excuse me enterprise value of 2.7 billion Dell technologies will receive approximately 7.2 million shares of VMware Class B common stock and now drew aggregate this results in an expected net cash payout for VMware of 0.8 billion I said I said point nine billion the impact of the equity issue to Dell technologies would increase its ownership stake in VMware by approximately 0.34 percentage points to a total of 81 0.09 percent based on the shares currently outstanding as it said VMware currently holds 15 percent of outstanding shares pivotal ones clothes will update blahblahblah so Michael Dell's buying VMware stock he's increasing his share of VMware which is also a kind of an interesting side note but now let's look at the pivotal fundamentals does this make strategic sense yes in my opinion why is that this is all about containers and it's all about next-generation application development for cloud it's also a hedge for VMware everybody said containers are gonna kill VMware well it's it's a hedge in the instance that that that containers start to impact VMware's traditional virtualization business now as I showed yesterday on the video where I was looking at ETR research there's no evidence today that it containers are slowing down the spending on VMware you deploy containers in many many ways certainly they're deployed in in bare metal and that's somewhat of a risk to a VMware but they're also they're also deployed on top of virtual machines on top of VMware so you know right now it's not been a negative for for VMware and by acquiring pivotal it can bring those synergies into the VMware mothership which is Dells a software mothership I call it and there's also synergies in sales and marketing and R&D and it kind of cleans up pivotal and consolidates the assets now let's look at carbon black this is a security play and it's really a different story than pivotal first you got to remember the Pat Gallagher told John Fourier in me several years ago in the cube that security is a do-over and I'll tell you right now Pat Gail singer and VMware are architecting a security do-over you've got on pram you've got hybrid you've got cloud you've got multi ply cloud traditional security models aren't gonna cut it so let's look at this clip by pat gyal singer and he'll it'll give you a sense of how he and VMware are thinking about the future watch this and we'll come back and talk about it Steve Herod on our Crouch at pre game on Friday with the hot opportunities are for startups he said security or mainly not getting caught at this perimeter basically what's your view on that well you know the krusty you know the hard crust the exterior and the soft gooey inside as I described it this morning my morning breakfast every day and you know with it right this whole idea of micro segmentation and nsx really redefines how you build networks and that's gonna allow us to refactor every aspect of security every aspect of routing and load balancing etc okay so what Pat was saying is he's talking about micro segmentation nsx the critical acquisition from nice Syrah refactoring security and everything security is a do-over okay Alex let's bring up the chart of carbon black I wanna I want to look at that and explain to our audience kind of what's going on there so you can see it's a it's a little bit of a different picture from from pivotal you've got that kind of bathtub look to it so you see at the IPO it was a hot company but it underperformed and and it was struggling there you know coming into at the end of last year and then into 2019 you could see it was kind of bouncing around at its lows and then what happened was you saw it earlier this year the company guided down so you can see that you know big drop after into February announced you big spike downwards they guided down the CFO resigned and there were several down grades from Wall Street analysts and that really crushed the stock but then you sort of bouncing back through May and then what happened is you know you had this growth company they've grown at 25 to 30% a year and they beat earnings estimates in May so they guide it down in in February but then they beat and you had a new CFO you just kind of had this new renewed emphasis on on the company and then this summer they hired morgan stanley and so the acquisition rumors started and that you can see you know into august it starts to pick up again so i have no doubt that this was a competitive bid of vmware wanted it so so here's another comment that i want to share with you from last year at VMworld and again it'll give you an additional insight as to how Pat Gallagher is thinking about the future go ahead and play the clip and then we'll come back what together into my application and in that sense the application is a network of these different services data sources etc and we believe in that you're bridging across silos isn't important it is essential to do that yeah because as you say security models across that you know how does the you know when that application isn't performing like I expect it to how do I go even debug it so think about what Pat said the application is a network of services services it's not as such it's not important it's essential that we deliver that in a consolidated model including security models okay so you got VMware looking to make its platform the place to run modern apps you got carbon black at 250 million dollar company trading at a discount of about 5.5 X revenue they got strong growth at the time but 25 to 30 percent of years it's consistent and then nearly 40 percent of its business is coming from the cloud and the cloud business is growing at 70 percent a year so VMware remember jettisoned its cloud business vCloud air but it still has a desire it covets participating in cloud at least in the form of multi cloud and on-prem cloud like experiences Carbon Black is a modern endpoint security company you heard John's question about the perimeter and you know you can't build moats anymore you you really endpoints are really the the new vulnerability especially when you start thinking about IOT so VMware is desirous of cloud revenue multi cloud and recurring revenue you got a growth company that's looking to sell they've got leading technology as I said this it was a competitive bid and VMware wanted it so now the other thing is VMware knows carbon black they've they've integrated carbon black into its app defense offering and VMware has been expanding its portfolio not so quietly lately app defense NSX has a you know with its micro segmentation is really a security use case AirWatch has a security component cloud choreo ee8 security was another acquisition bracket intrinsic was you know these little tuck-ins you sort of draw a picture of how Dell senior and VMware are starting to build out its portfolio again making vmware the software mothership security is a critical component of that it also gives VMware much more of a strategic entrance into the c-suite particularly with the chief information security officer we've talked many times on the cube that security is now a board level discussion to the extent that VMware can be the platform for multi cloud security and of course you know that's not assured right there battling cisco who's coming at it from a network position they're battling google who's coming you know announced anthos they're certainly battling Microsoft certainly IBM and Red Hat have similar designs and as we've said watch this space Amazon ultimately we think is going to get into this area but any rate VMware's making security a fundamental part of its platform it's bridging those silos is what what Pat Gayle singer talked about in the video and giving you access to sets of infrastructure so with pivotal it's building out you know in cloud native application development and and tooling container technology and that's clearly strategic to its multi cloud strategy helps VMware stay relevant VMware doesn't own a cloud so it's got to move fast and be first in this multi cloud space ok so let me summarize VMware's gonna spend 2.7 billion on two key acquisitions they're gonna add it's gonna add a billion dollars in two points of revenue growth that's largely in SAS and hybrid cloud and recurring revenue for VMware and three billion dollars in year two now let me do some Volante math for you VMware trades at about five to six times revenue so essentially they just added five to six billion dollars in market value in year one and by the way the stock is off eight percent today so because of these acquisitions so and it's got upside in my view assuming that you know there's not some big economic downturn but we're talking about 15 to 18 billion in market cap in year two so this acceleration VMware's transition to SATs ass it's a cash flow positive and the creative acquisitions in year two according to vmware vmware throws off nearly four billion dollars in annual and operating annually and operating cash flow to me this is a good use of cash balancing acquisitions and to continue growth and tuck in your ability to be that platform for cloud and multi cloud services and hybrid cloud is a good use of cash I like it better than stock buybacks frankly so a combination of stock buybacks organic Rd which VM was very strong engineering culture and acquisitions in this case using your stock as currency I like the deals we're gonna watch him very closely and we're gonna be talking about this this next week at vmworld so watch the cube at vmworld the cube net will be there myself john fourier stu minimun Jeff Rick the entire team celebrating our 10th year at vmworld if you have any questions on this or comments please tweet me at diva want a thanks for watching everybody we'll see you next week

live from Las Vegas it's the queue covering Dell technologies world 2019 brought to you by Dell technologies and it's ecosystem partners welcome back everyone to the cubes live coverage of Dell technologies world here in Sin City I'm your host Rebecca night along with my co-host Stu minimun we have Chadds a catch he is the SVP PKS and Deltek Alliance at pivotal thank you so much for coming back on the cube Rebekah it is my pleasure Stu as always this is a big anniversary actually this isn't he I'm glad you brought it up this is this is Mark's 10 years of the cube at Dell technologies world and you're a cube MVP I want to hear you break it down for us would listen down this milestone when when when you guys started doing this I'm not sure whether anyone knew whether there was gonna be a season two but you know I think at these events distilling down what's happening bring in people with diverse points of view you guys have always made it real shared the perspective of the ecosystem challenged us to keep it a no-spin zone which i think is a great formula yeah Chad thank you so much first of all you know one of the things we do come in opinionated but one of the things we want is we want guests with opinions and luckily you've always brought it we love having you on the program and boy have things changed a lot in the last 10 years so I want to get your view on the keynote so I mean Chad you and I go back way we we were colleagues back at EMC I remember when you were acquired into the company we worked on like I scuzzy stuff which nobody even talks anymore of my scuzzy storage networking the dark art of that stuff but VMware was something that you know it really was a lifter for both of our careers I think it was really interesting to see how central VMware is to the strategy that we saw how it fits into multi cloud I just got a note from Dave Volante said you know Pat Geller drew up on there talking about multi cloud and you know let's not think that Microsoft obviates the need for AWS Atos is the first the big cloud and absolutely VMware's working with them so I'd love to get your take on you know VMware and the multi cloud and VMware with delve as opposed to VMware with EMC there's a lot to unpack in that yeah we've got like an hour so the first thing that I think is interesting is that history and context gives perspective but ditch context and dick ditch history and if you think of the now and the market the customer no longer wants servers network storage they don't want virtualization they don't even want things like RDS and ec2 and we still want the emotion right you know the the reality is is that with every customer that I see they're looking for things that only the Giants in increasingly vertically integrated stacks can do so think about the whole keynote through that context right basically you saw Dell EMC and VMware more aligned than ever and again you and I have the history in the context of years of EMC VMware I remember the first time I did a vien the first time played with ESX 3.0 and virtual Center 100 and 200 and going is gonna change the universe but fast-forward to now people are like I want an easy button for the whole stack Dell EMC says this is the common building block VX rail my former baby is now grown up and it's the standardized way to deploy the VMware stack on Brentt Project I mention is moved out of a hypothetical into beta management of that lifecycle as a cloud service and you'll notice that Michael started it in the keynote kubernetes is central to that vision our efforts between pivotal and VMware in the kubernetes universe is singular the objective is to make that whole stack simple to deploy consume grow etc etc now Chad I needed a comment on one thing so I seem to remember back another project you worked on that was going to start as a managed server and that turned into Acadia which turned into VCE which turned into a product because the customer gave very clear feedback that most of them didn't want it so why is it is it different now what's different now what changed in a decade the customer wants the outcome in the historical like you know that's a Wayback Machine right so circa 2010 the way you built a private cloud was an assemblage of server network computes virtualization in separate components delivering that as an outcome as a managed service even for VCE CPS D etc etc there we did it amazingly for about 3,000 customers but it was held together with services and human that's not software what's adapted is that the software-defined data center is now much more mature and it's possible for us to literally roll in a rack of VX rails manage it via dimension do full lifecycle updates not via NRC em but via button click in a window that is necessary for that degree of simplification now if we had stopped there in the keynote we'd be missing the mark because basically the customers have said I want a common multi cloud hybrid cloud operating model with consistent control consistent infrastructure can consistent kubernetes consistent developer abstractions and I thought it was a pretty big deal to see Microsoft join what VMware's been doing with AWS and you know we were there at the Google announcement at Google next you know just a couple weeks back so I think that we're moving into a face to be a little opinionated here where customers wanting an outcome are going to look at Deltek Microsoft Amazon sometimes Google and go tell us how we bring ourselves to the digital future it's interesting because that means what things that people don't like which is vertically integrated stacks they don't like industry consolidation they don't like optionality being reduced but if you want an outcome frankly increasingly what's happening is consolidation at this layer and a blossoming ecosystem above it so so where where where will that bring us I mean I think I think you're absolutely right in you you started talking about how we're sort of putting aside history and perspective and now let's bring it back into the conversation yeah what does that mean I think I think that for human beings watching the era of doing cool things assembling things that run VMS even things that run kubernetes and containers is increasingly turning into an a realm where you have to let go so that you can do things that matter increasingly the ecosystems are hyper standardizing those stacks and delivering them as a service in a public cloud and on-premises our objective and I think it's something that only Deltek really is in a position to do is to do that in a way which is open multi-cloud and yet also deeply integrated and what I would say is again to anybody watching is if you're deep passion is in building cool things build cool things but on top of that stuff so chat great set up for the question I have kubernetes I've argued for a number of years is something that the average customer shouldn't need to worry about it's something that should be baked into the platform all the public clouds have it VMware has it your babies PKS today help help us reconcile the statement you were just making and what PKS because I know it's really cool tech and there's lots of pieces and lots of smart people work on it but so you know how does that fit so a stew again you and I go back aways do you remember you remember the state of virtualization circa 2006 sure you'd show up to the VM world and it would be filled with people deeply passionate at the time it was like three four thousand people we're gonna change the world with virtualization all of them were doing weird science projects very few of them could say and I'm running this in production to you know do bla and I'm making the hospital run better right but they'd be like look at how cool this is the technology matured a lot and if you look at the time frame 2010 which was vSphere for if my timing is right it was the first year where it was like kind of for reals right and people started to talk about hey I can do cool stuff kubernetes is currently in the 2006 of virtualization so I've been doing this now for a year we as del tech are now the number two contributor to kubernetes right after Google more than RedHat more than RedHat is that combining all the pieces we have basically drove and so hard towards this point because we think it's essential now you've got the help to your team as part of that that's a big that is a big part of the strategy right how do we make contributions for the native upstream community and lead that charge via be a good citizen of that ecosystem one two we will make PKS Enterprise PKS in a central PKS the best simplest curated way to make this work that said kubernetes has three major release over three months PKS 1.4 using one dot 13.5 came out last week 1.5 with beta support for Windows is just arriving and we did a beta last week three months from now there's gonna be another major release I'm doing a session that basically says and I'm the I'm a cheerleader I'm like a superfan this is currently like juggling flaming chainsaws right yeah it's it's like you were like what and I'm like yeah so the CNC F which is the ecosystem around kubernetes kubernetes on its own is just like a base component you need to have this and this and this and this has 647 things on the landscape landing page that means if you take five minutes per you would spend a week without sleep without eating like the Game of Thrones watching last night's no food no sleeping no bathroom breaks today Chad five minutes each today and you would get a chance to learn all of those but to really deeply understand what they do you can't do with that in five minutes that's six months of work people need that market to consolidate mature industrialize and we're doing it having having been part of the VX rail envy san ramp being part of the NSX ramp the vSphere ramp the converged infrastructure ramp what's happening with kubernetes and with peak s exceeds the ramp curves for all of those so if you're a customer and you're thinking about do I need this kubernetes thing the answer is yes we have 50 of the Fortune 500 customers now using peak s people are doing it for real but it's still early days now some people may go that's scary and I'm gonna take a timeout I wouldn't do that I would say that just like virtualization 2006 those people who were there at vmworld got a ton of value leveraged and learning and now it's like an industry standard we are going to make kubernetes part of the VMware software defined data center and you heard Pat and Michael talk about it so it sounds like it's going in the direction that you that you believe thumbs up thumbs up from Chad sockets you heard it here first thumbs up it's been it's been a really exciting year and this year we are gonna take that momentum and accelerate it to the moon and beyond but we can't wait to have you back at this table this time next year for Season eleven thank you so much for returning to the queue Rebecca thank you I'm Rebecca Knight first amendment we will have much more from the cubes live coverage of Dell technologies world here in Las Vegas coming up in just a little bit [Music]

>> Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE, covering AWS re:Invent 2018, brought to you buy Amazon Web Services, Intel and their ecosystem partners. And welcome back here at AWS re:Invent. We are live in Las Vegas, day three of our coverage right here on the Cube, and we continue our discussion now with Justin Warren and John Walls, with Matt Yanchyshyn, who is the director of solutions architecture at AWS. >> That's right. >> Good morning. Good to see you, sir. >> Thanks for having me. >> And Nick Cayou, vice president of the global ecosystem at Pivotal. And, good to see you this morning, Nick. >> Good morning, thanks for having me. >> All right, first off let's just get your take on what's happening here. We were talking a little but before we got started about here we are, day three, well day four if you count the partner conferences, but last day of the show, and there's still a lot of excitement in the air. >> All the energy out here. >> The show floor's still packed. What have you guys seen this week that's kind of stood out in your mind, Matt? >> Well, I mean people stick around for the third day because Werner Vogels is like a hero for so many people here and so, you know, a lot of buzz is to see his keynote this morning. You know, one thing I've been really excited about is all the announcements around machine learning this week. There's just been an incredible amount of innovation, and people are really excited about the DeepRacer and the DeepRacer league announced this morning, so that, you know, the momentum we're seeing and the excitement around machine learning is really cool to see. >> And from your perspective, Nick? >> I'm joining the marathon towards the middle. I came in last night. Matt and I had dinner. But I think the most impactful announcement I saw coming out of AWS was probably the Outposts announcement, sort of the commitment to hybrid, which, and I know Matt played a big role in kind of pioneering that and so that's super exciting, and I just can't believe how many people have stuck around. I mean, we're on the last day of this thing, and it's like, you know, people are staying after the party. They won't leave the house. >> Yeah, exactly right. Well, at four O'clock they're going to have important things that we're going to think about. DeepRacer, by the way, we've had a couple of guests on. That was a really cool idea about taking literally a small, toy truck, if you will, but programming it and doing some, not reflective learning, but reinforced learning with it, and then actually taking it into practice and putting these cars on tracks and having a yearlong competition. So we'll kind of see next year, how that works out. >> Yeah. >> AWS and Pivotal, all right. So what are the two of aligned with now? What brings the two of you here, and the two companies together? >> Yeah, well, I mean, I think first of all, as companies we have a lot in common, certainly how we think about customers. We're both really sort of customer-obsessed companies. But, you know what I see a lot, I work with partners all day long, and we want to make it easy for both our customers and our partners to embrace modern DevOps, like all these enterprises are going through DevOps transformation, and any tools and partnerships we can create to make that journey easier is really a priority for me and my team. >> Okay, and then from the Pivotal side of the fence? >> Yeah, I would say largely it's our customers. You know, a large portion of our clients have chosen to run Pivotal Cloud Foundry, which is sort of our flagship platform, as a service on AWS. Going back to, you know, tune of 2014 was the first public IaaS we supported after Vsphere, so, you know, I think our customers are pushing us to work together, and I think we've met that challenge. You know, one of the things we're here to talk about from a Pivotal perspective is all the work we've done with Amazon to expose Amazon services to our platform through this technology called a service broker, that you know, over the past six months, Amazon engineers and Pivotal engineers have worked kind of assiduously to deliver to market, and now it's getting in the hands of customers. You know, after this session we're going to go speak with about 50 customers in a private room about how they're deploying Cloud Foundry on AWS and utilizing the service broker to be more productive and drive more innovation of services into their developer community. >> So what are some of the services customers are attracted to? What are they pushing you to put into this service broker? What do they want to do with that? Maybe you could give us a bit of a flavor of that? >> So we came out initially a couple months ago with 18 services that we support, so things like S3, RDS, some of the Hadoop offerings. You know, I think we're going to see the basics, the S3s, probably consumed first, but we're working. We're actually putting some ideas together to see how we can build kind of reference architectures and paradigms to let our customers know how to take advantage of these services like machine learning or some of the Hadoop offerings, etc. >> Yeah, I mean, we started out with some of the IoT integrations already for the service brokers, but I agree. We're starting with the core services, the databases, DynamoDB, RDS, S3, etc. And we're starting to layer in more services over time. >> Well you've got to start with the basics so that you can then build upon that. >> Exactly. >> Which is what Amazon has a long history of doing. You know, you started with EC2 and then you grew beyond S3 and now we have services like SageMaker and things that drive the car with DeepRacer, so it would be nice if we could actually do training models using Pivotal Cloud Foundry. >> Well actually, nothing's stopping us from using PCF. One of the things I love about it is with Cloud Foundry you can use the Service Brokers. It makes it easier for you to adopt AWS services, but nothing's stopping you from using any AWS service, and it's one of actually the great parts of the partnership, so you're not limited to what we have service brokers for. >> Yeah. So, enterprises have been going on this cloud journey for some time, and Amazon's been around for a long time. AWS has had these services for a while, Pivotal as well. Where are we seeing customers? Where's the momentum for customers, where they're transforming their businesses, and we're hearing a lot about hybrid cloud here at the show. Where are enterprises putting their workloads? What are they looking at putting workloads into hybrid as compared to putting things over into public cloud or using Pivotal Cloud Foundry for? >> I guess I'll take it from my angle first. So, you know, approximately 70% of our customers are still running their workloads on prem, right? That doesn't mean to say that they're not expanding those applications out to Amazon, for example, and I think the key trend we're seen is, you know, cloud is becoming more of an operating model, and what we focus on is teaching our clients how to build and rebuilt software. The big sort of surface area below the iceberg for us right now is all of the enterprise applications, legacy monoliths that need to be kind of decomposed and moved into a cloud operating model, modernized through things like data services that we can expose through our platform to something like AWS. And, you know, it's starting to shift. We were talking earlier about the Outpost and how I think the goal is to kind of meet customers where they are together, if that's the best way to put it. >> Yeah. >> Both Amazon and Pivotal. >> Yeah, I mean with the size of customers we're working with, like Comcast and Liberty Mutual and US Air Force, it's not like a single jump into the cloud. It's a migration, a lot of different workloads, a lot of different divisions of these companies. So it's sort of a continuum, and so different companies are at different stages of their migration and adoption of the cloud all over different parts of the business, so I think the hybrid story is really meeting that need. You have some divisions that are going to jump right into server lists and IoT, and then you have other parts of the company that maybe, you know, have a mainframe that they're still tied to, so there's always going to be some of these dependencies, and so I think hybrid story allows us to sort of address all different parts of the companies we work with. >> So what are the factors then? If I'm looking at, you know, a hybrid cloud solution, how do you help people decide what to put where? Because, you know, you got it on prem, it becomes, you know, a heave, right? To move some things over, and so, could be easier to I guess, take the lightest lift and go from there, but that's not necessarily the best route to go, so how do you help people with that kind of decision? >> Yeah, I mean, we believe in the fullness of time that customers will eventually move everything to the cloud but, you know, in the meantime, like I said, it's going to be a multiyear journey for a lot of these big customers. So like if you take, you know, a Liberty Mutual or a Comcast, these are very large companies, and we work with them to find teams and workloads within, and that comes down to people a lot of the time. You know, different teams may be at a different point of sort of agility in terms of DevOps, and if they're able to adapt their software. If their software runs on x86 infrastructure and if they're already using CICD for example and if they're used to containers, then they're going to be good candidates. So I always look to the people and then the products and then decide what they're going to migrate in that order. >> Yeah, and I would say that, you know, there's a lot of big enterprises that are looking to shut down data centers and they've already made a decision to fundamentally move infrastructure to AWS for example, right? And a lot of times we'll be brought in after the fact if you will, to deliver that developer experience on top of an already made, fundamentally an outsourcing decision, so all the reasons, you know, cost, complexity, flexible finances, consumption-based pricing, a lot of that kind of substrate decision has already been made, and we're generally coming in and saying, okay, now let's look at the application architecture. Are there things like latency and/or regulatory requirements that would require you to keep this on prem versus moving completely to the public cloud? Are there services? So, you know, could you move off of legacy middleware for example, on prem, and take advantage of, you know, refactoring and moving applications into the public cloud to improve your cost structure there? There's a myriad of issues. I think we would generally agree. A lot of times we get guidance from our customers in their respective market segment as to what's most important to them. >> So looking ahead trying to sketch out the vision of what we're going to see in the future, what do you think that customers are going to be asking for you, next year, two years out? >> Well, I think we've had a great reception for a lot of the templates and the automation that we've co-engineered. You know, Nick was talking about a lot of the co-engineering. So we have something called the AWS Quick Starts that allow you to deploy Pivotal Cloud Foundry really quickly, and so we've had really good reception from customers. >> Yep. >> Like, things that we can make it easier for them to deploy Pivotal and just sort of explore using AWS. We're going to double down on those efforts. More service brokers, more Quick Starts, more Automation more self-service for customers to they can get started with pivotal, you know, quickly. >> Yeah, and I'd add we're also, we support a product we launched about three quarters ago, Pivotal Container Service, on AWS, and so I think we'll see by virtue of the partnership with VMware, a lot more customer demand to run PKS, you know, on AWS, on Outposts, on VM cloud for AWS, and all the variants of the VMware and Amazon partnership as well. >> Yeah, like you said, meeting customers where they are. >> That's right, yeah. >> Well you're about to meet Cisco >> (laughs) that's right. >> So, good luck with that, and I'm sure you're going to get a very positive earful, which is always a good thing and continue that great work with them. Gentlemen, thanks for being with us. >> Thanks for having us. >> Appreciate the time. >> Thank you. >> Back with more AWS re:Invent. We're live here in Las Vegas at the Sands expo, and you're watching theCUBE.

(upbeat techno music) >> Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering Boomi World 2018. Brought to you by Dell Boomi. >> Good afternoon, welcome back to theCUBE's continuing coverage of Boomi World 2018 from Las Vegas. I'm Lisa Martin with John Furrier and we're welcoming back to theCUBE one of our alumni Nima Badiey, Head of Technology Ecosystems from Pivotal. Nima, welcome back. >> Thank you for having me back. >> So Pivotal, part of the Dell technologies part of the companies, >> Yeah. >> You guys IPOd recently. And I did read that of the first half 2018, eight of the 10 tech IPOs were powered by Boomi. >> Well, I don't know about that specific. I know that tech IPOs are making a big comeback. We did IPO on the 20th of April, so we've passed out six-month anniversary if you can say. But it's been a distinct privilege to be part of the overall Dell family of businesses. I think what you have in Michael as a leader, who, he has a specific vision, but he's left the independent operating units to work on their own, to find their path through that journey, and to help each other as brethren, as like sisters and brothers. And the fact that Pivotal is here supporting Boomi. That Boomi is within our conference of supporting our customers that we're working together really speaks volumes. I think if you take a look at it, a lot of things happened this week, right? So a couple weeks ago, IBM's acquiring RedHat, this morning VMWare's acquiring Heptio. That's a solid signal that the enterprise transformation and adoption of cloud native model is really taking off. So the new middleware is really all about the cloud native polyglock, multiglock environment. >> And what's interesting, I want to get your thoughts on this because first of all congratulations on the IP, some are saying Pivotal's never going to go public, and they did, you guys were spectacular, great success. But what's going on now is interesting. We're hearing here at this show, as other shows is, cloud scale and data are really at the center of this horizontally scalable cloud poly proposition. Okay great, you mention Kubernetes and Heptio and VM where, that's all great. The question that is how do you compete when ecosystems become the most important thing. You worked at VMware you're at Pivotal. Dell knows ecosystems. Boomi's got an ecosystem. Partners, which is also suppliers and integrators. >> Yeah. >> They integrate and also developers. This is a key competitive advantage. What's your take on that here? >> So I think you touched on the right point. You compete because of your ecosystem, not despite your ecosystem. We can't be completely hedgemonic like Microsoft or Cisco or Amazon can afford to be. And I don't think customers really want that. Customers actually want choice. They want the best options but from a variety of sources. And that's why one of the reasons that we not only invest Dell ecosystem but also in Pivotal's own ecosystem is to cultivate the right technologies that will help our customers on that journey. And our philosophy's always find the leaders in the quadrant. The Cadillac vendors, the Lexus vendors onboard them and the most important thing you can do is, to ensure a pristine customer experience. We're not measuring whether feature A from one partner is better than feature B from another partner. We really don't care. What we care about is we can hand wire and automate what would have been a very manual process for customers, so that, let's say Boomi with Cloud Foundry works perfectly out of the box. So the customers doesn't have to go through and hire consultants and additional external resources just to figure out how two pieces of software should work together, they just should. So when they make that buying decision they know that the day after that buying decision, everything's going to be installed and their developers and their app dev teams and their ops teams can be productive. So that's the power of the ecosystem. >> Can you talk about the relationship between Pivotal and Boomi, because Boomi's been born in the Cloud as start up. Acquired eight years ago. You're part of the Dell Technologies family. VMware's VMware, we know about VMware doing great. You guys doing great. Now Boomi's out there. So how do they factor into and what's the relationship you have with them and how does that work, how do you guys work together? >> Perfect question. So, in my primary role at Pivotal is to manage all of our partner ecosystems, specifically the technology partners. And what I look for are any force multipliers. Any essentially ISVs who can help us accomplish more together than we could on our own. Boomi's a classic example of that. What do they enable? So take your classic customer. Classic customer has, let's say, 100 applications in inventory that they have built, managed, and purchased procured off from shelf-to-shelf components. And roughly 20 or 30% are newish, green field applications, perfect for the cloud native transformation. Most 80% of them or 70% are going to be older, ground field applications that will have to be refactored. But there's always going to be that 15% towards the end that's legacy mainframe. It can't be changed, you cannot afford to modernize it, to restructure it, to refactor it. You're going to have to leave it alone, but you need it. Your inventory systems are there. >> These are critical systems, those people who think legacy as outdated, but they're actually just valued. >> No, they're critically valuable. >> Yes. >> We just cannot be modernized. >> Bingo. >> So a partner like Boomi will allow you to access the full breadth of those resources without having to change them. So I could potentially put Boomi in front of any number of older business applications and effectively modernize them by bridging those older legacy systems with the new systems that I want to build. So let's do an example. I am the Gap and I want to build a new version of our in-store procurement system that runs on my iPhone, that I can just point to a garment and it will automatically put it in my, ya know, check out box. How do I do that? Well I can build all the intelligence. And I can use AI and functions and I can build everything it's out of containers, that's great. But I still have to connect to the inventory system. Inventory system... >> Which is a database. All these systems are out there. >> Somewhere, something. And my developers don't know enough about the old legacy database to be able to use it. But if I put a restful interface using Boomi in front of it and a business connector that's not older XML or kind of inflexible, whatever, solo gateways. Then I have enabled my developer to actually build something that is real. That is customer focused. It is appropriate for that market without being hamstrung by my existing legacy infrastructure. And now my legacy infrastructure is not an anchor that's holding me back. >> You had mentioned force, me and Lisa talk about this all the time on theCUBE, where that scenario's totally legit and relevant because in the old version of IT you have to essentially build inventory management into the new app. You'd have to essentially kill the old to bring in the new. I think with containers and cloud native has shown is you can keep the old and sunset it if you want on your own time table or keep it there and make it productive. Make the data exposeble, but you can bring the cool relevant new stuff in. >> Yeah. >> I think that is what I see and we see from customers, like OK cool, I don't have to kill the old. I'll take care of it on my own timetable versus a complete switching cost analysis. Take down a production system. >> Exactly. >> Build something new, will it work. Ya know cross your fingers. Okay, again and this is a key IT different dynamic. >> It is and it's a realization that there are things you can move and those are immutable. They're simply just monolithic that will never move. And you're going to work within those confines. You can have the best of both worlds. You can maintain your legacy applications. They're still fine, they run most of your business. And still invent the new and explore new markets and new industries and new verticals. And just new capabilities all through and through without having to touch in your back end systems. Without having to bring the older vendors in and say can you please modernize your stuff because my business is dependent and I am going to lose that. I'm going to become the new Sears, I going to become the new Woolworth or whoever. Blockbuster that has missed an opportunity to vector into a new way of delivering their services. >> When you're having customer conversations, Nima, I'm curious, talking with enterprise organizations who have tons of data, all the systems including the legacy, which I'm glad that you brought up that that's not just old systems. There's a lot of business critical, mission critical application running on 'em. Where do you start that conversation with the large enterprise, who doesn't want to become a Blockbuster to your point, and going this is the suite of applications we have, where do we start? Talk to us about that customer journey that you help enable. >> That's great 'cause in most cases the customers already know exactly what they want. It's not the what that you have to have the conversation around, it's the how do I get there. I know what I want, I know what I want to be, I know what I want to design. And it's how do I transform my business fundamentally do an app transformation, enterprise transformation, digital transformation? Where do I begin? And so, ya know, our perspective at Pivotal is, ya know, we're diehard adopters of agile methodology. We truly, truly believe that you can be an agile development organization. We truly believe in Marc Andreessen's vision of software eating the world. Which let's unpack what that means. It just means that if you're going to survive the next 10 years you have to fundamentally become a software company, right? So look at all the companies we work with. Are you an insurance company or are you delivering an insurance product through software? Are you a bank or are you delivering banking product through software? Well, when was the last time you talked to a bank teller? Or the atm, most of your banking's done online. Your computer or your mobile device. Even my check cashing, I don't have to talk to anyone. It's wonderful. Ford Motor Company, do they bend sheet metal and put wheels on it or are they a software company? Well consider that your modern pickup truck has... >> They're an IOT company now. (laughing) (crosstalking) Manufacturing lines. >> That's what's crazy. You have a 150 million lines of code in your pickup truck. Your car, your pickup truck, your whatever is more software than it is anything else. >> But also data's key. I want to get your thoughts since this is super important Michael Dell brought up on the keynote today here at Boomi World was, okay the data's got to stay in the car. I don't need to have a latency issue of hey, I need to know nanosecond results. With data, cloud has become a great use case. With multicloud on the horizon, some people are going to throw data in multiple clouds and that's clear use case, and everyone can see the benefits of that. How do you guys look at this? 'Cause now data needs to be addressable across horizontal systems. You mentioned the Gap and the Gap example. >> That's great, so, one of the biggest trends we see in data is really event streaming. Is the idea that the ability to generate data far out exceeds the ability to consume it. So, what if we treated data as just a river? And I'm going to cast my line and only pick up what I want out of that stream. And this is where CAFCA and companies like Solice and any venturing networks and spring cloud functions and spring cloud data are really coming into play, is acknowledgement that yes we are not in a world where we can store all of the data all the time and figure out what to do with it after the fact. We need timely, and timely is within milliseconds, if not seconds. Action taken on an event or data even coming through. So why don't we modernize around, ya know, that type of data structure and data event and data horizon. So that's one of the trends we see. The second is that there is no one database to rule them all anymore. I can't get away with having oracle and that's my be all, end all. I now have my ESQL and SQL and Mongo and Cassandra and Redis and any other number of databases that are form, fit and function specific for a utility and they're perfect for that. I see graph databases, I see key value stores, I see distributed data warehouse. And so my options as a developer, as a user is really expanding, which means the total types of data components that I can use are also expanding exponentially. And that gives me a lot more flexibility on the types of products that I can build and the services that I can ultimately deliver. >> And that highlights micro services trend, because you have now a multitude of databases, it's not the one database rules them all. They'll be literally thousands of database on censors, so micro service has become the key element to connect all these systems. >> All of it together. And micro services really a higher level of abstraction. So we started with virtual machines and then we went to containers and then we went to functions and micro services. It's on an upward trend necessarily as it is an expansion. Into different ways of being able to do work. So some of my work products are going to be very, very small. They can afford to be ephemeral, but there may be many of them. How do I manage a cluster of millions of these potential work loads? Backing off I can have an ephemeral applications that run inside of containers or I can have ridged fixed applications that have to run inside a virtual machines. I'm going to have all of them. What I need is a platform that delivers all of this for me without me having to figure out how to hand wire these bits and pieces from various different either proprietary or open source kits just to make it work. I'm going to need a 60 to 100 or 200 person team just to maintain this very bespoke thing that I have developed. I'll just pull it off the shelf 'cause this is a solved problem. Right, Pivotal has already solved this problem. Other companies have already solved this problem. Let me start there and so now I'm here. I don't have to worry about all this left over plumbing. Now I can actually build on top of my business. The analogy I'd use is you don't bring furniture with you every time you check into a hotel. And we're telling customers every time you want to move to a different city just for business meeting or for work trip we're going to build you a house and you need to furnish it. Well, that's ridiculous. I'm going to check into a hotel and my expectation is I can check out of any other room and they'll all be the same, it doesn't really matter what floor I'm on, what room I'm in. But they'll have the same facilities, the same bed, the same, ya know, restroom facilities. That's what I want. That's what containers are. Eventually all the services surrounding that hotel room experience will be micro services. >> And we're the work load, the people. >> And we are the work load and we're the most important thing, we are the application, you're right. >> I love that. That's probably best analogy I've heard of containers. Nima, thanks so much for stopping by theCUBE, joining John and me today. And talking to us about what's going on with Pivotal and how you guys are really helping as part of Dell business dramatically transform. >> Been my pleasure. Thank you both. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you for watching theCUBE. I'm Lisa Martin with John Furrier. We are in Las Vegas at Boomi World '18. Stick around, John and I will be right back with our next guest. (light techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering Dell Technologies World, 2018. Brought to you by Dell EMC and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to Vegas, everybody. We're rocking. We are rocking. Dave Vellante here with Keith Townsend. This is theCUBE, the leader, get into it! Live tech coverage. (laughing) >> We in the club! >> We are in the club. The Chads are here, Chad Dunn, Chad Sakac. Chad Dunn is VP of Product Management and Marketing at Dell EMC, and Chad Sakac, needs no introduction, although new role with Pivotal. >> Sakac: Yeah. >> Awesome. >> It's exciting man, it's great to be back, like come on, some things change, some things stay the same. It's always good to be on theCUBE. >> So tell us about the new role, let's start there. I know you've talked a lot about it, but you haven't with me, so. >> Yeah, so, in a nutshell, as I was trying to think what do I do next in my career? You know, we had built amazing things in the converged platform and solutions division, VxRail, massive success. >> Dunn: Yep. >> Those things moving into the parts of Dell EMC for more scale and velocity, which is simple. If you imagine the future of tomorrow, you'd go and say, what percentage of infrastructure going to be hyper-converged? Answer, a lot, and it's going to need to have a velocity that's very similar to a server, because what percentage of servers are going to be HCI? Answer, a lot. And so it was a very natural kind of, time to go and say, how do we optimize this thing? And then that gave me a weird, unique, once in a lifetime moment, where I could go and say, what do I want to do? My wife said, I'm telling you a long answer, and you probably want the short one. My wife said-- >> Dunn: You don't know any other kind. (laughing) >> This is Chad skills. >> "Chad, you've been on the road for 13 years, "your children are now 12 and 14, "they're going to be here in the nest "for like another four years, "take time off, I'll go out to work, "you be a stay-at-home dad." That was actually, like, option A. Option B was, there's so much cool stuff going on in the ecosystem, join a startup, do a CEO gig, whatever, and then stay in the family and a ton of support from Michael and from Jeff Clarke and from Pat Gelsinger and Rob Mee, and there was, like, do this at Dell EMC, do this at VMware, do this at Pivotal. And what I realized was the Pivotal thing gave me the opportunity to do the startup-like thing, discover some new parts of my own career, so move up the stack, and do one thing that I've always done, which is be at the intersection of the companies. Because PKS is, fundamentally, an effort that is 50/50, VMware and Pivotal, just like VxRail is a 50/50, VMware, Dell EMC effort. >> Right, right. >> So it was the obvious choice and then I had to have that uncomfortable discussion with my wife that said, "Unfortunately, sweetheart, "I'm back on the road." She said, "Fine! "But at least take one month off "before you go from one thing to the other." We went to Hawaii, surfed. >> Oh nice. >> It was awesome. >> You bring the kids? >> Oh, yeah. >> Beautiful. >> It was awesome. But in any case, it's a, you know, in the same way that when we started VxRail, we were like, how do we go from a market where we're currently not the leader, and quickly accelerate, become number one, in a two-year period? And that requires running fast and iterating. The same thing goes with PKS, PCF and PAS is number one for that universe, but we're not currently number one for the enterprise container distribution. So, that's OK, I like that, now I'm determined and stubborn to make sure that PKS is the best enterprise Kubernetes and container platform. >> Chad D, you were talking off camera about the interest in VxRail, sounds like it's off the charts. >> Absolutely. I mean a ridiculous number of customer meetings that we have here at the show this week. I think it's over 200 customer meetings, just on VxRail, and VxRack SDDC, you know, the VMware hyper-converged stack. And, you know, more and more on Pivotal PCF and PKS. >> Yeah so let's talk about that. You got the guys that are sort of, born Cloud-native and the guys that are trying to transform, they need infrastructure to help them do both, they need partnerships, so lay it out for us. >> So, Keith, you and I have gone on Twitter and talked about this, there's this nature amongst the IT ecosystem, where everybody wants the answer to be A or B. >> Keith: Yes, we do. >> Right, A or B. >> Keith: Yes. >> Yeah A sucks, B is awesome. And you know, debates raged about, you remember like, the era of Doka is going to destroy VMware, you remember that? >> I remember that, seems like just yesterday. >> Because it was just yesterday. (laughing) But what's happened now is everyone's realized that's stupid, that the reality is that Kernel-Mode VMs and containers are going to co-exist, and in fact, the majority of containers are actually going to be deployed on Kernel-Mode hypervisors. >> Netflix's biggest story is optimizations from AWS. They're able to save tons of money by running containers inside of VMs. >> Sakac: Yeah. >> Dunn: Absolutely. >> And, you know, I was laughed at a couple of years ago, when I said, you know what, containers and VMs go together, like peanut-butter and jelly, and it does. >> It does and so, look, does it change what people want from the Kernel-Mode virtualization layer? Yeah. So, things like DRS, that are really important if all you do is a Kernel-Mode VM is less important, when resource management is done by something like Kubernetes, but that's a refinement. And so, what we're trying to do now is now that everyone's gotten over the emotion, and what I call the bar-fights, where we're getting into stupid arguments, you know, that are not about something that matters, and now people are getting down to the brass tacks of, how do I make this go? They're realizing, I'm going to use off-prem and on-prem, I'm going to have Kernel Mode VM's and I'm going to have containers, how do I make that work, how do I build a hybrid model that will work for both of those scenarios? And then, frankly, our job as IT practitioners and the vendor ecosystem is to make this as easy as we can. >> Well, you guys know this better than I do, people want to use existing processes and procedures, they don't want to throw that stuff out, I mean I think of it, I remember Big Data and Hadoop that the killer application was sequel. Right, I mean even in the Blockchain world now. >> Sakac: Yep. >> Everybody's talking about writing in JavaScript, right, you've got expertise built up, you don't throw that away. >> No, and I think when you look at the people who are trying to deploy containers on premises, they don't want to worry about the infrastructure, right, they want to look at the new, play with the new, cool things, they want to play with Kubernetes, they want to play with containers as service. They don't want to talk about, OK, well what infrastructure do I need, how do I make those choices? They want something that is very much automated and very much scale-out so it can react the same way that their application does. >> So let's talk about that, let's talk about VxRail, Kubernetes, PKS. If I'm a Cloud-Native guy, I don't care about infrastructure but there has to be infrastructure. So where's the meeting of that conversation? Dell technologies run best on Dell technologies. >> So, again, I'm going to try and force myself to give short answers, because it's so not natural for me. I'm sorry, fellas. When Pivotal engages with the customer, we go and we say, "We give you a platform, PaaS, PKS "and the Function Service," and they say, "What should I run it on?" And the first answer that comes out of someone's mouth is it doesn't matter, you can run it on any cloud you want, which is true on one level. But then if you look at our on-premises projects, the thing that's the biggest holdup is infrastructure that is too rigid, too slow, doesn't work right, is busted. And they're like, damn it, if I want to focus my energies elsewhere, I have to have a base-stack that is just easy and done, right? >> So, help break up the long chat answers. One argument is, you know what, just give someone 128 gig VM, a bunch of vCPUs, and that simplifies the infrastructure. Where does that break? >> It breaks immediately when someone says, I need to add more total compute, or storage, or network, or memory, to my Kubernetes pot. Kubernetes goes, great, I'd like to basically make the cluster bigger, because I've got this resource demand. Then it looks down and says, infrastructure, are you there? And if the answer is, no, it's like, wah wah. Right? (laughing) So what we've managed to do is we've managed with VxRail to go and say, we've made an easy button based off of the customer-standard which is the VMware stack, it's not only something they can count on, they can easily add it, so if they want to add raw compute, storage, or network. It also adds in small increments, so you don't have to have a giant block of infrastructure to go in, you know, so you can grow your Kubernetes cluster, you can grow your physical infrastructure, simple, easy, done. And the biggest part is that Kubernetes makes deploying containers easy, however, PKS makes deploying and versioning Kubernetes easy, VxRail makes deploying and versioning the vSphere stack easy. Easy, plus easy, plus easy, equals easy. >> So is it like a quasi-elastic-beanstalk here? >> Elastic beanstalk, OK. (laughs) >> Is that fair? >> Or maybe a plastic beanstalk, where, you know, it could hold its shape. >> You know, elastic beanstalk is a PaaS, right, but the long and the short of it is is that if you get the abstraction that you need, Kernel Mode VM or container, the container is in a VM, if the whole stack is prescriptive and easy and works, then you can redeploy time, money, and resources, on the things that matter. And that Pivotal ready architecture, which is PCF, on VxRail, is that easy button on-prem. >> So, Chad, the production staff may regret me asking this question, but I have to know this. You're known in the industry for these blog polls talking about face-melting technologies. (laughing) What is face-melting about PKS, and VxRail, gimme some classic Chad. >> I'll give you face-melting. Facemelting to someone who's looking at a container platform and you're looking at Kubernetes is that without them knowing, without them knowing or doing anything, the Bosch part of what PKS does- >> Keith: Oh, Bosch. >> Is basically doing updates, like four times a day, blowing up the entire environment and recreating it and no-one has touched a damn thing, step one. The next thing that's face-melting is that their ability to update the infrastructure, can be done at tens of thousands of sites via API calls. So I'll give you another fascinating example. Kubernetes is generally thought-of as mostly a data-center thing, we've had fascinating interest from retail and other use cases, where they're like, look I get it, I want a Kubernetes, that I could deploy in a store. >> Keith: Yeah. >> And then you go and say, well, do you have a great DevOps practice in the store, in Topeka, Kansas? The answer is, no. But if I say I can basically drive all of the platform updates, including the infrastructure, at thousands of stores around the globe, that's pretty face-melting, no-one else can do that. >> Exactly, and look we see, you know, lots of pockets of Cloud Native popping up in accounts, and a lot of times IT doesn't even know where they're at. You know, these are things that are going to go from a line of business, and all of a sudden become production, have to become production, and IT needs a way to manage that. Rail gives them a way to go in and manage that infrastructure, at a scalable way, and move it from a line of business, into production. >> I'll give you another face-melting, do you mind? >> I'm not calling the shots. >> Bring it on. >> Is your face OK? >> My face is getting there. >> I want to see it like, melted Keith, just melted. People have asked me is that a good thing? And, yeah, it's a great thing. (laughing) So, we were talking about a particular customer, I dunno whether we can name them, can we name them? >> I don't know if we could, I haven't asked. >> OK so-- >> What industry? >> Financial Services. >> And, basically, they use the PCF stack on VxRail, and they're currently using it, for pre-prod. >> Exactly, so they're building all the testing applications to test their classic applications, that are running on VxBlock. >> So they've got a production environment that's like, big, classic, VxBlock, also my former baby, so and I love all my children equally, right. What they are finding is that the simplicity of the PCF on the VxRail Model, is so wonderful and fast and great. But when they want to try and do a capacity add on a VxBlock, or to do an update, like an RCM, it's a lot harder here than it is over here, right. I guarantee at that customer, what they're eventually going to discover is this has been awesome, we're going to keep using VxBlock for something else, but we're not going to deploy PCF, PaaS and PKS, on a VxBlock. >> Exactly, and this is going to trigger refactoring of all those workloads, that say, can I refactor these to be Cloud Native, right. If I can iterate my testing that quickly, can I iterate my production applications that quickly. >> And the ROI on that refactoring is? Fill in the blank. >> No, no it is like a thousand to one. So, again, this is a very hard thing to imagine. >> Talk about business impact. Not financial, but-- >> I'll give you one example that I'm so happy that they actually posted this to YouTube, because the customer's voice in this is incredible. If you YouTube, From zero to 12 million, T-mobile. OK, so this is not me saying it, you can go and you can see it themselves. T-mobile basically, and to all of you T-mobile, you know, subscribers out there, anyone of you guys use T-mobile? I use T-mobile, so, in any case, they have a single, giant, Java app that has a thousand functions in it, right. So, just imagine one app, sitting on a app server, like web-sphere or whatever, and inside that app, there's a thousand API calls, functions, and purposes, right. And because it's so big and monolithic, but this is critical, this is like the thing that runs their ordering systems and like, subscriber functions. It's the heart of the business that any time they needed to update it, to do like a patch, would take seven months. If they wanted to scale it, so like the iPhone launch is coming up, we need to get like three times as much capacity to handle all these iPhone orders in September, it would take them seven months of planning, work et cetera et cetera. >> Sure. >> Sakac: Everyone goes, I could visualize that. Right? >> Right. >> They took one function, just one, and pulled it out, and they said, we're going to do a project, we're going to take this function called, Get Usage, which, as you can imagine, basically pulls up the subscriber's usage data, and we're going to make it into a small micro-service, and we're going to run it on a PaaS, OK. Within five months, that function was getting used 12 million times a day, and they were able to do three CVE updates, so in other words, a Critical Vulnerability Patch, comes out, they were able to do it in real-time. They have eight platform operators, just eight, that are supporting 5,000 developers, sorry 500 developers. Eight, 500. Now, if you look at that and go, what does it mean for them? Well, they reduced the number of outages by almost 90%, the time for an outage went down by 63%, the developers and the dev-ops team are now happy, because this thing auto-scales itself. >> Dave: Ching ching. >> Ching ching, ching, right? >> Right, dudes, we got to go. Chad squared, thank you so much for coming on. >> Thank you, Guys. >> You OK? >> I'm good. >> Your face is melted. >> Your face melted? >> I have water. >> Splash it on your face to bring it back. >> Really, always great seeing you guys, thank you so much. >> Thanks, Dave, it's always good to be on here. >> Thanks very much. Keep right there, everybody, we'll be right back to wrap, right after this short break. (soft music)

>> Announcer: From Boston, Massachusetts, it's the Cube. Covering Cloud Foundry Summit 2018. Brought to you by The Cloud Foundry Foundation, >> Hi I'm Stu Miniman and this is the Cube's coverage of the Cloud Foundry Summit 2018 here in Boston, Massachusetts. Happy to welcome back one of our earliest and favorite guests of the Cube Chad Sakac Who's at Pivotal now and he handles PKS and Dell technologies. Chad, great to see you, thanks for joining us, welcome to the Boston area, you come through this area a lot but it's great to see you. >> It's good to see you too. This is, by the way, my first CF summit. So it's interesting, you and I have talked together at Dell Technologies World, Dell EMC World, and EMC World for years. >> Stu: VMWorld. >> And VMWorld. This is a different scene. >> Alright Chad, this is my third time doing this show. I was at the first one back in 2014, last year we did the Cube there; every year it's like 'oh wait, there's this cool new technology; containers, maybe, how's Pivotal going to deal with that? This year, wait, Kubernetes, cloud natives everywhere. Maybe give us your point of view, as to how this fits in. >> So I feel like I'm a kid in a candy store. My job inside Pivotal is to drive PKS. Pivotal Container Service, that's built on top of Kubernetes. And there's a lot of Kubernetes action occurring here. If I had to net it out, I'd say a couple things. Number one, we've moved past the early hype cycle, and actually went through several hype cycles that blew up, so Docker is going to take over the world, not correct. What turned out to be correct is Docker would become the container standard, right? >> It's Mobi now, right? >> Right. Then, we went in to the battles of different cluster container managers. It's Swarm, it's Mesos Marathon, it's Kubernetes and there were lots of others, and then you get through that early hype period and things settle down to the point where they're actually productive, and everyone now kind of agrees, that Kubernetes is the standard container cluster manager for broad sets of workloads, great. Now the debate is Cloud Foundry, the structured PaaS-World, right? The structured platform opinionated, versus the little more wild west and open eco system of Kubernetes, and then early stage Kubernetes projects, like Istio and others, right? I think this has two chapters now, in front of us. Number one, and this is my focus I think for the next few years, is how do we make Kubernetes simple enough, easy enough, and frankly, enterprise ready. Not that it's not ready today, but a lot of Kubernetes projects that our customers are all over the map, difficult to sustain. We want to bring a lot of the lessons learned over the years of Cloud Foundry to Kubernetes. And I'm happy to say, that just a couple days ago, we released PKS 1.O.2 and 1.1, which we haven't announced the date but we've always said that we're going to be in constant compatibility with GKE, and the core Kubernetes. Since GKE shortly will have Kubernetes 1.10 support you can expect a 1.1 of PKS. So mission number one is make Kubernetes a great platform, and I am determined and stubborn, and will make PKS the best enterprise platform for customers that are putting workloads on Kubernetes. That said, Kubernetes isn't steady still and neither is the ecosystem. And you can see that there's a lot of discussion over what is the intersection between Cloud Foundry and Kubernetes? I think that over time it's inevitable that these things come together more. But again, I think that's going to occur over years. Not in a heartbeat. >> And even, I've been at the Kubernetes show and have been at this show a few times, it's not a monolithic stack, we're building distributed, lots of different pieces. You go to the Cloud Foundry, I'm sorry, the show that's Kub-Con, there's so many different projects there, I mean Istio was all the buzz, talk about the service national, there's all these little pieces there. And at this show, we're talking about Zip Car came and talked about they love everything in this eco system. They don't use some of the core components, but they use all these other pieces. As you and I've talked many times, Chad, people go read, Chad writes a little bit about some of these things to give you all the details there, but this stuff's pretty complicated. There's some in the Kubernetes community that's like it's never going to get simple. Remember when we thought Cloud computing was simple? And if you've been to any Amazon show and you go through, it is more complicated to configure a compute instance at Amazon, than it is to buy a Dell server these days. Because there's more options out there. Look, customers need options, many of them want things to be packaged and serviced and buy it as a service, but some love to put those pieces together and it's a spectrum and I loved at this show, Google and Microsoft up on stage, talking, 'hey, open communities, collaborating together'. Maybe not merging everything, but working together, understanding where things fit and it's not one or the other, it's many customers will choose both. >> You and I are both nerds at heart, I hope you don't take offense to that. >> I've already been doing Star Wars quotes this week. >> I wear it with pride. I'm always fascinated by the technology itself, but one thing that's been really cool about my experience alongside, and now inside Pivotal, and you can see it here at the CF Summit, is that the Pivotal obsession, is about the customer and the outcome. We build a platform that is an essential part of that, but teaching the world how to build better software is a noble mission. And the thing that's the most exciting for me is actually when the customers talk. So if you went to any of the customer discussions, did you see any of them, did you see the T-Mobile one? >> I saw T-Mobile up on the key note, I actually did an interview with T-Mobile. Had an interview with US Air Force. >> The Air Force One is amazing. >> Awesome. >> It's fascinating, from a technological standpoint, to say how do you use these tools? But it's the story of what you do with it, that actually matters so much more. I'll leave the, no, I won't leave the customer name out of it. So in talking with the T-Mobile crew, they love the Pivotal application service. So they are using it, it's an essential part of how T-Mobile works. They talked about it on stage, that's why I don't mind talking about it. And if you ask them, it's not an or. They also have massive projects, massive application workloads, that don't fit in PaaS, but are Docker images, they're currently doing some strange stuff with Swarm, and blah blah. And they're like 'Man, if you guys can basically deliver a great platform that we can consume instead of trying to construct and maintain, we trust you, you iterate with us, you work with us, we'll be able to focus more on the outcome. The thing that I'm actually going to be the most curious to hear feedback from customers over the next couple of years, is how do they navigate what workloads are best put into Kubernetes, how does Kubernetes sets of ecosystems start to not calcify, but firm up, right? It's going to be loose. But it will start to align more over time. >> Yeah our research team actually calls it, we need to get to a place where it's plastic. It should be not just scalable up and down but side to side a little bit more too. Once you have it, you can be able to go. >> Figuring out over time, and helping, with customers, figure out 'Hey, this is a Kafka or Crunchy data.' Post grass instance, or it's an ISV stack, or it's an application they've home grown, but they don't want it fully compartmentalized and put on paths, and they decide that they want to put it on Kubernetes, awesome. What is the value and the return of doing further work on that app to really make it Cloud Native, pull out all config, turn it into sets of small micro services, and then it's better fit for the PaaS part of PCF. Figuring out that formula over the next few years is going to be really cool. >> You mentioned culture. And that's been something you and I, Chad, lived through. It was the server vs the storage vs the network and the virtualization admin, and then the cloud admin. I talked to the US Air Force guy, and he was like, 'We actually have the people take off their uniforms, because rank would have a certain meaning inside there.' But you've got the Devs, you've got OPS, you've got still the infrastructure pieces on tub, what are you seeing from the customers you're talking to; what are some of the big challenges that are slowing people back from reaching this Utopia of fast, fast, fast, agile, inter-operable, wonderful times? >> How do I answer that one? That's a loaded question, brother. The biggest impediment is human nature. It's these damn humans, if we could just get all the humans out. >> Well everybody's mine, mine, mine. >> We'll go to low code, no code, eliminate all the humans, it'll be dreamy. >> I did one of those interviews today, too. Absolutely, you don't need all programmers, the business people can do it. >> The human tendency for control, and the need for control, I think it's probably deep seated in our, we're living in a world where we know intellectually that we don't have control over everything, but we hate that. Because we want to create control in our lives, that basically is the thing that sets up boundaries between people, and they get really hung up on their function. That's not new, the word's changed, like you said. Used to be server people vs storage people. Then it was virtualization teams vs the silo teams. And now it's the intersection of the DEV team and the DevOps team, the operations team. How do they intersect? The places where they're the most successful, is that they don't get hung up on that and the people blend the roles. Now the trick is, how do you do that in a big company? I wrote a blog, I'm not trying to advertise, virtualgeek.io I wrote a blog on this which was a synthesis of all the customer dialogues I've been having over the last few years. And the pattern I've seen that is most successful, is actually to recognize that there are stacks, and the stacks, I don't mean this particular technology choice, but the way that the whole stack driven by the business and the application and then the abstraction it sits on, and then you have to build your actual operations team underneath that. That creates a whole operational model which in itself is a stack, and just so it doesn't sound like I'm describing something that's nonsensical, a stack can be in big enterprises, there's a main frame based app, that's running on a main frame, that's being supported by a main frame operations team, and then right beside it there's another stack, which is all X86 workloads that are static. So they don't need an IAS they just need to run on a kernel mode VM abstraction. And then under that you've got the team that supports. Then you've got the workload that can be containerized, and don't need a full blown PaaS. And then you've got another one, which is a full blown application service model. Each one of those stacks ends up with different people, processes and tools, because they're mapped to the cultural operational model of that stack. And the thing that I'm trying to guide customers when I'm talking to them is, don't reject that; that's actually reality. Yes you should move as much as you can to the highest order abstraction you can. That's goodness and it pays dividends all the way down the stack. But don't go and say, that this workload, by definition has to go there. Or because you operate this way in this stack and this group operates this way, that by definition you're stupid and they're smart. The other rule is that- >> Chad, the answer to everything is server-less. >> By the way, I should have said that's another abstraction even to the right of the application service model. So the thing I've found, is a key kind of pattern of good, is that between the stacks, people and process are not allowed to transverse them, because the process is linked to how you operate. The only thing that goes between them, because in the end, for any customer, the stuff that touches all of those, is to become religious about one thing, which is that API's and data, and how those transit, those different stacks, that you have to be very clear on. Do you know what I mean? On the blog I drew a picture, but it was terrible. It was a terrible drawing. >> I've done whiteboards with you, Chad, I understand. Great, so. Sound's like you've got your hands full. Lots of us read the S1, so Pivotal's marching towards an IPO. You've only been there a very short time, you've know Pivotal since the beginning and all the pieces since Greenplum's part of the MC, Cloud Foundry part of VMware. Anything that you've learned since you've been inside Pivotal now that there's misconceptions? One of the things I always find is, we always learn about something the first time and then don't think it changes. >> It's funny actually, that's an insightful question. Having joined the team, it's weird because to many of them, I'm new, I'm a new Pivot. But to many of them they know that I've always been there. And I was reminding some of the originals, the crazy tortured path that we've taken to get to today. The original effort was hey, people are doing new things data's at the core of it. And that was the trigger for the Greenplum acquisition. And several of the people who are the senior leaders of Pivotal now came in through that. And then Paul Maritz was the CEO of VMware at the time, hey, I'm seeing people build new apps in new ways, by the way there's this crazy team inside VMware working on this thing called Cloud Foundry. And they were like a red headed stepchild. That's not PC, but like a black sheep? Or I don't know what metaphor you want to use, but basically they were working on something that had nothing to do with kernel mode virtualization at its core. >> Yeah it was a Cloud native peg in a VM square. >> And at the time, VMware isn't what they are now too. And then people forget this but I wrote a blog about it, so it's on the internet permanently. There was a Greenplum project, which was a great idea, that says people want to collaborate with data sets, and data scientists want to work together and it's really hard. Let's build a thing, which is like a social media portal, for Greenplum which was called Chorus. And the Chorus project was completely sideways. And they were like we don't know how we're going to get this thing on track on time, and they asked around the Valley, and people said hey, you should go talk to these guys, Pivotal Labs, up in San Francisco. What they do is they help people when they're stuck. They went, and I remember when Bill Cook and Scott Yara came back to Hoppington and said 'This was awesome, they've changed the way we think about how we build software, we think we should buy them.' And that got added, I remember when Paul Maritz said 'Spring is available.' it's like the most widely used modern JAVA framework, and that was also stuff in Spring Rif. All of these weird bits, in essence became the essence of Pivotal. You know what I've learned through that? Is these journeys are not in a straight line. Everyone's. >> Like our careers, Chad. >> Like our careers man. That's the first part, the second thing is, and this is going to be a challenge for Pivotal, honest, if we're very transparent as always, is Pivotal's brand is now so linked with Pivotal Cloud Foundry. And that's a good thing, like those customers raving about the business outcomes that they are getting. But inside Pivotal, the strategic change, the strategic pivot ha ha ha, to do a full embrace of Kubernetes versus the traditional opinionated versus plastic debates, I wouldn't say that we have 100% of the company fully embracing it yet, because companies are themselves, organic. But across the vast majority of the company it is something understood that it is an imperative for us. If we want to help the customers and the world build better software, we've got to do it for stuff that fits into PaaS, and stuff that doesn't. And so I've learned over the last few weeks about how many people share that passion that I have, and I think we can make something awesome with PKS. >> Alright, well with that Chad, we'll have to leave it there for now, looking forward to seeing you at more events. Congrats on the new role, I'm sure if people haven't already, Chad does have a new site for his blog, virtualgeek.io instead of the previous one. Chad, always a pleasure. Got the Cube here at Cloud Foundry Summit, I'm Stu Miniman, thanks for watching the Cube. (upbeat tempo)

>> Announcer: Live from San Jose, it's The Cube. Presenting Big Data, Silicon Valley. Brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to The Cube, we are live in San Jose at Forager Eatery, a really cool place down the street from the Strata Data Conference. This is our 10th big data event, we call this BigData SV, we've done five here, five in New York, and this is our day one of coverage, I'm Lisa Martin with my co-host George Gilbert, and we're joined by a Cube alumni, Jacque Istok, the head of data from Pivotal. Welcome back to the cube, Jacque. >> Thank you, it's great to be here. >> So, just recently you guys announced, Pivotal announced, the GA of your Kubernetes-based Pivotal container service, PKS following this initial beta that you guys released last year, tell us about that, what's the main idea behind PKS? >> So, as we were talking about earlier, we've had this opinionated platform as a service for the last couple of years, it's taken off, but it really requires a very specific methodology for deploying microservices and kind of next gen applications, and what we've seen with the ground swell behind Kubernetes is a very seamless way where we can not just do our opinionated applications, we can do any applications leveraging Kubernetes. In addition, it actually allows us to again, kind of have an opinionated way to work with stateful, stateful data, if you will. And so, what you'll see is two of the main things we have going on, again, if you look at both of those products they're all managed by a thing we call Bosch and Bosch allows for not just the ease of installation, but also the actual operation of the entire platform. And so, what we're seeing is the ability to do day two operations not just around just the apps, not just the platform, but also the data products that run within it. And you'll see later this year as we continue to evolve our data products running on top of either the PKS product or the PCF product. >> Quick question before you jump in George, so you talk about some of the technology benefits and reasoning for that, from a customer perspective, what are some of the key benefits that you've designed this for, or challenges to solve? >> I'd say the key benefits, one is convenience and ease of installation, and operationalization. Kubernetes seems to have basically become the standard for being able to deploy containers, whether its on Pram or off Pram, and having an enterprise solution to do that is something that customers are actually really looking towards, in fact, we had sold about a dozen of these products even before it was GA there was so much excitement around it. But, beyond that, I think we've been really focused on this idea of digital transformation. So Pivotal's whole talk track really is changing how companies build software. And I think the introduction of PKS really takes us to the next level, which is that there's no digital transformation without data, and basically Kubernetes and PKS allow us to implement that and perform for our customers. >> This is really a facilitator of a company's digital transformation journey. >> Correct. In a very easy and convenient way, and I think, you know, whether it's our generation, or, you know, what's going on in just technology, but everybody is so focused on convenience, push button, I just want it to work. I don't want to have to dig into the details. >> So this picks up on a theme we've been pounding on for a couple of years on our side, which is the infrastructure was too hard to stand up and operate >> Male Speaker: Yeah. >> But now that we're beginning to solve some of those problems, talk about some of the use case. Let's pick GE because that's a flagship customer, start with some of the big outcomes, some of the big business outcomes they're shooting for and then how some of the pivotal products map into that. >> Sure, so there's a lot of use cases. Obviously, GE is both a large organization, as well as an investor inside of Pivotal. A lot of different things we can talk about one that comes to mind out of the gate is we've got a data suite we sell in addition to PKS and PCF, and within that data suite there are a couple of products, green plum being one of them. Green plum is this open source MPP data platform. Probably one of the most successful implementations within GE is this ability to actually consolidate a bunch of different ERP data and have people be able to querey it, again, cheaply, easily, effectively and there are a lot of different ways you can implement a solution like that. I think what's attractive to these guys specifically around green plum is that it leverages, you know, standard ANSI SQL, it scales to pedobytes of data, we have this ability to do on pram and off pram I was actually at the Gartner Conference earlier this week and walking around the show it was actually somewhat eye opening to me to be able to see that if you look at just that one product, there really isn't a competitive product that was being showcased that was open source, multi cloud, analytical in nature, et cetera. And so I think, again, to get back to the GE scenario, what was attractive to them was everything they're doing on pram can move to the cloud, whether it's Google, Azure, Amazon they can literally run the exact same product and the exact same queries. If you extend it beyond that particular use case, there are other use cases that are more real time, and again, inside of the data suite, we've got another product called gem fire, which is an in-memory data grid that allows for this rapid ingest, so you can kind of think and imagine whether it's jet engines, or whether it's wind turbines data is constantly being generated, and our ability to take that data in real time, ingest it, actually perform analytics on it as it comes in, so, again, kind of a loose example would be if you know the heat tolerance of a wind turbine is between this temperature and this temperature, do something: send an alarm, shut it down, et cetera. If you can do that in real time, you can actually save millions of dollars by not letting that turbine fail. >> Okay, it sounds here like the gem fire product and the green plum DBMS are very complimentary. You know, one is speed, and one is sort of throughput. And we've seen almost like with Hadupen overreaction in turning a coherent platform into a bunch of building blocks. >> Male Speaker: Yes. >> And with green plum you have everything packaged together. Would it be proper to think of green plum as combining the best of the data link and the data warehouse where you've got the data scientists and data engineers with what would have been another product and the business analysts and the BI crowd satisfied with the same product, but what would have been another? >> Male Speaker: So, I'd say you're spot on. What is super interesting to me is, one, I've been doing data warehousing now for, I don't know, 20 years, and for the last five, I've kind of felt like data warehouse, just the term, was equivalent to the mainframe. So, I actually kind of relegated it the I'm not going to use that term anymore, but with the advent of the cloud and with other products that are out there we're seeing this resurgence where the data warehouse is cool again, and I think part of it is because we had this shift where we had really expensive products doing the classic EDW and it was too rigid, and it was too expensive, and Haduke sort of came on and everyone was like hey this is really easy, this is really cheap, we can store whatever we want, we can do any kind of analytics, and I think, I was saying before, the love affair with piecing all of that together is kind of over and I also think, it's funny, it was really hard for organizations to successfully stand up a Haduke platform, and I think the metric we hear is fifty percent of them fail, right, so part of that, I believe is because there just aren't enough people to be able to do what needed to be done. So, interestingly enough, because of those failures, because the Haduke ecosystem didn't quite integrate into the classic enterprise, products like green plum are suddenly very popular. I was just seeing our downloads for the open source part of green plum, and we're literally, at this juncture seeing 1500 distinct customers leveraging the open source product, so I feel like we're on kind of this upswing of getting everybody to understand that you don't have to go to Haduke to be able to do structured to unstructured data at scale. You can actually use some of these other products. >> Female Speaker: Sorry George, quickly, being in the industry for 20 years, we talk about, you know, culture a lot, and we say cultural shift. People started embracing Haduke, we can dump everything that data lake turned into swamps. I'm curious though, what is that, maybe it's not a cultural shift, maybe it's a cultural roller coaster, like, mainframes are cool again. Give us your perspective on how you've helped companies like GE sort of as technology waves come really kind of help design and maybe drive a culture that embraces the velocity of this change. >> Sure, so one of the things we do a lot is help our customers better leverage technology, and really kind of train it. So, we have a couple different aspects to pivotal. One of them is our labs aspect, and effectively that is our ability to teach people how to better build applications, how to better do data science, how to better do data engineering. Now, when we come in, we have an opinionated way to do all those things, and when a customer embraces it it actually opens up a lot of doors. So we're somewhat technology agnostic, which aids in your question, right, so we can come in, we're not trying to push a specific technology, we're trying to push a methodology and an end goal and solution. And I think, you know, often times of course that end goal and solution is best met by our products, but to your point about the roller coaster, it seems as though as we have evolved there is a notion that data will, from an organization, will all come together in a common object store, and then the ability to quickly be able to spin up an analytical or a programmmatic interface within that data is super important and that's where we're kind of leaning, and that's where I think this idea of convenience being able to push button instantiate a green plum cluster, push button instantiate a gem fire grid so that you can do analytics or you can take actions on it is so super important. >> Male Speaker: You said something that sounds really important which is we want to get it sounded like you were alluding to a single source of truth, and then you spin up whatever compute, you bring it to the data. But there's an emerging, still early school of thought which is maybe the single source of truth should be a hub centered around real time streams. >> Male Speaker: Sure. Yeah. >> How does Pivotal play in that role? >> So, there are a lot of products that can help facilitate that including our own. I would say that there is a broad ecosystem that kind of says, if I was going to start an organization today there are a number of vertical products I would need in order to be successful with data. One of the would be just a standard relational database. And if I pause there for a second, if you look at it, there is definitely a move toward building microservices so that you can glue all those pieces together. Those microservices require smaller, simpler relational type databases, or you know, SQL type databases on the front end, but they become simpler and simpler where I think if I was Oracle or some of the more stalwart on the relational side, it's not about how many widgets you can put into the database, it's really about it's simplicity and performance. From there, having some kind of message queue or system to be able to take the changes and the updates of the data down the line so that, not so much IT providing it to an end user, but more self service, being able to subscribe to the data that I care about. And again, going back to the simplicity, me as an end user being able to take control of my destiny and use whatever product or technology makes the most sense to me and if I sort of dovetail on the side of that, we've focused so much this year on convenience and flexibility that I think it is now at a spot where all of the innovations that we're doing in the Amazon marketplace on green plum, all of those innovations are actually leading us to the same types of innovations in data deployments on top of Kubernetes. And so two of them that come to mind, I felt like, I was in front of a group last week and we were presenting some of the things we had done, and one of them was self-healing of green plum and so it's often been said that these big analytical solutions are really hard to operate and through our innovations we're able to have, if a segment goes down or a host goes down, or network problems, through the implementation the system will actually self heal itself, so all of a sudden the operational needs become quite a bit less. In addition, we've also created this automatic snapshotting capability which allows, I think our last benchmark we did about a pedobyte of data in less than three minutes, so suddenly you've got this operational stalwart, almost a database as a service without really being a service really just this living breathing thing. And that kind of dovetails back to where we're trying to make all of our products perform in a way that customers can just use them and not worry about the nuts and bolts of it. >> Female Speaker: So last question, we've got about 30 seconds left. You mentioned a lot of technologies but you mentioned methodology. Is that approach from Pivotal one of the defining competitive advantages that you deliver to the market? >> Male Speaker: It is 100 per cent one of our defining our defining things. Our methodology is what is enabling our customers to be successful and it actually allows me to say we've partnered with postcrestkampf and green plum summit this year is next month in April and the theme of that is hashtag data tells the story. And so, from our standpoint, green plum is continuing to take off, gem fire is continuing to take off, Kubernetes is continuing to take off, PCF is continuing to take off, but we believe that digital transformation doesn't happen without data. We think data tells a story. I'm here to encourage everyone to come to green plum summit, I'm also here to encourage everyone to share their stories with us on twitter, hashtag data tells a story, so that we can continue to broaden this ecosystem. >> Female Speaker: Hahtag data tells a story. Jacque, thanks so much for carving out some time this week to come back to the cube and share what's new and differentiating at Pivotal. >> Thank you. >> We want to thank you for watching The Cube. I'm Lisa Martin with my co-host George Gilbert. We are live at Big Data SV, our tenth big data event come down here, see us, we're in San Jose at Forrager eatery, we've got a great party tonight and also tomorrow morning at eight am we've got a breakfast briefing you wont' want to miss. Stick around, we'll be back with our next guest after a short break.

>> Announcer: Live from midtown Manhattan, it's the Cube, covering big data New York City 2017. Brought to you by Silicon Angle Media and its ecosystem sponsors. >> Welcome back everyone, we're here live in New York City for the week, three days of wall to wall coverage of big data NYC, it's big data week here in conjunction with Strata Adup, Strata Data which is an event running right around the corner, this is the Cube, I'm John Furrier with my cohost, Peter Burris, our next guest Jacque Istok who's the head of data at Pivotal. Welcome to the Cube, good to see you again. >> Likewise. >> You guys had big news we covered at VMware, obviously the Kubernetes craze is fantastic, you're starting to see cloud native platforms front and center even in some of these operational worlds like in cloud, data you guys have been here a while with Green Plum and Pivotal's been adding more to the data suite, so you guys are a player in this ecosystem. >> Correct. >> As it grows to be much more developer-centric and enterprise-centric and AI-centric, what's the update? >> I'd like to talk about a couple things, just three quick things here, one focused primarily on simplicity, first and foremost as you said, there's a lot of things going on on the cloud foundry side, a lot of things that we're doing with Kubernetes, etc., super exciting. I will say Tony Berge has written a nice piece about Green Plum in Zitinet, essentially calling Green Plum the best kept secret in the analytic database world. Why I think that's important is, what isn't really well known is that over the period of Pivotal's history, the last four and a half years, we focused really heavily on the cloud foundry side, on dev/ops, on getting users to actually be able to publish code. What we haven't talked about as much is what we're doing on the data side and I find it very interesting to repeatedly tell analysts and customers that the Green Plum business has been and continues to be a profitable business unit within Pivotal, so as we're growing on the cloud foundry side, we're continuing to grow a business that many of the organizations that I see here at Strata are still looking to get to, that ever forgotten profitability zone. >> There's a legacy around Green Plum, I'm not going to say they pivoted, pun intended, Pivotal. There's been added stuff around Green Plum, Green Plum might get lost in the messaging because it's been now one of many ingredients, right? >> It's true and when we formed Pivotal, I think there were 34 some different skews that we have now focused in on over the last two years or so. What's super exciting is again, over that time period, one of the things that we took to heart within the Green Plum side is this idea of extreme agile. As you guys know, Pivotal Labs being the core part of the Pivotal mission helps our customers figure out how to actually build software. We finally are drinking our own champagne and over the last year and a half of Green Plum R&D, we're shipping code, a complete data platform, we're shipping that on a cadence of about four to five weeks which again, a little bit unheard of in the industry, being able to move at that pace. We work through the backlog and what is also super exciting and I'm glad that you guys are able to help me tell the world, we released version five last week. Version five is actually the only parallel open source data platform that actually has native ANSI compliance SQL and I feel a little bit like I've rewound the clock 15 years where I have to actually throw in the ANSI compliance, but I think that in a lot of ways, there are SQL alternatives that are out there in the world. They are very much not ANSI compliant and that hurts. >> It's a nuance but it's table stakes in the enterprise. ANSI compliance is just, >> There's a reason you want to be ANSI compliant, because there's a whole swath of analytic applications mainly in the data warehouse world, that were built using ANSI compliant SQL, so why do this with version five? I presume it's got to have something to do with you want to start capturing some of those applications and helping customers modernize. >> That is correct. I think the SQL piece is one part of the data platform, of really a modern data platform. The other parts are again, becoming table stakes. Being able to do text analytics, we've backed Apache Solar within Green Plum, being able to do graph analytics or spatial analytics, anything from classifications, regressions, all of that, actually becomes table stakes and we feel that enterprises have suffered a little bit over the last five or six years. They've had this promise of having a new platform that they can leverage for doing interesting new things, machine learning, AI, etc. but the existing stuff that they were trying to do has been super, super hard. What we're trying to do is bridge those together and provide both in the same platform, out of the gate so that customers can actually use it immediately and I think one of the things we've seen is there's about 1000 to one SQL experienced individuals within the enterprise versus say Haduk experience in individuals. The other thing that I think is actually super important and almost bigger than everything else I talked about is we're the, a lot of the old school postgres deriviants of MBD databases forked their databases at some point in postgres's history, for a variety of reasons from licensing to when they started. Green Plum's no different. We forked right around eight dot too with this last release of version five, we've actually up leveled the postgres base within Green Plum's 8.3. Now in and of itself, it doesn't sound, >> What does that mean? >> We are now taking a 100% commitment both to open source and both to the postgres community. I think if you look at postgres today, in its latest versions, it is a full fledged, mission critical database that can be used anywhere. What we feel is that if we can bring our core engineering developments around parallelism, around analytics and combine that with postgres itself, then we don't have to implement all of the low level database things that a lot of our competitors have to do. What's unique about it is one, Green Plum continues to be open source, which again most of our competitors are not, two if you look at primarily what they're doing, nobody's got that level of commitment to the postgres community which means all of their resources are going to be stuck building core database technology, even building that ANSI SQL compliance in, which we'll get "for free" which will let us focus on things like machine learning, artificial intelligence. >> Just give a quick second and tell about the relevance of postgres because of the success, first of all it's massive, it's everywhere, but it's not going anywhere. Just give a quick, for the audience watching, what's the relevance of it. >> Sure like you said, it is everywhere. It is the most full featured, actual database in the open source community. Arguably my SQL has "more" market share, but my SQL projects that generally leverage them are not used for mission critical enterprise applications. Being able to have parity allows us not only to have that database technology baked into Green Plum, but it also gives us all of the community stuff with it. Everything from being able to leverage the most recent ODBC and JDBC libraries, but also integrations into everything from the post GIS travert for geospatial to being able to connect to other types of data sources, etc. >> It's a big community, shows that it's successful, but again, >> And it doesn't come in a red box. >> It does not come in a red box, that is correct. >> Which is not a bad thing. Look, postgres as a technology was developed a long time ago, largely in response to think about analytics and transaction, or analytics and operating applications might have actually come to and we're now living in a world where we can actually see the hardware and a lot of practices, etc. are beginning to find ways where this may start to happen. With Green Plum and postgres both MPP based, so your, by going to this, you're able to stay more modern, more up to date on all the new technology that's coming together to support these richer, more complex classes of applications. >> You're spot on, I suppose I would argue that postgres, I feel came up with as a response to Oracle in the past of, we need an open source alternative to Oracle, but other than that, 100% correct. >> There was always a difference between postgres and MySQL, MySQL always was okay, that's that, let's do that open source, postgres coming out of Berkeley and coming out of some other places, always had a slightly different notion of the types of problems it was going to take on. >> 100% correct, 100%. But to your question before, what does this all mean to customers, I think the one thing that version five really gives us the confidence to say is, and a lot of times I hate lobbing when the ball's out like this, but we welcome and embrace with open arms any terradata customers out there that are looking to save millions if not tens of millions of dollars on a modern platform that can actually run not only on premise, not only on bare metal, but virtually and off premise. We're truly the only MPP platform, the only open source MPP data platform that can allow you to build analytics and move those analytics from Amazon to Azure to back on prem. >> Talk about this, the terradata thing for a second, I want to get down and double click on that. Customers don't want to change code, so what specifically are you guys offering terradata customers specifically. With the release of version five, with a lot of the development that we've done and some of the partnering that we've done, we are now able to take without changing a line of code of your terradata applications, you load the data within the Green Plum platform, you can point those applications directly to Green Plum and run them unchanged, so I think in the past, the reticence to move to any other platform was really the amount of time it would take to actually redevelop all of the stuff that you had. We offer an ability to go from an immediate ROI to a platform that again, bridges that gap, allows you to really be modern. >> Peter, I want to talk to you about that importance that we just said because you've been studying the private cloud report, true private cloud which is on premises, coming from a cloud operating model, automating away undifferentiated labor and shipping that to differentiated labor, but this brings up what customers want in hybrid cloud and ultimately having public cloud and private cloud so hybrid sits there. They don't want to change their code basis, this is a huge deal. >> Obviously a couple things to go along with what Jacque said. The first thing is that you're right, people want the data to run where the data naturally needs to run or should run, that's the big argument about public versus hybrid versus what we call true private cloud. The idea that decreasing the workload needs to be located where the data, where it naturally should be located because of the physical, legal, regulatory, intellectual property attributes of the data, being able to do that is really really important. The other thing that Jacque said that goes right into this question John, is that ultimately in too many domains in this analytics world, which is fundamentally predicated on the idea of breaking data out of applications so that you can use it in new and novel and more value creating ways, is that the data gets locked up in a data warehouse. What's valuable in a data warehouse is not the hardware. It's the data. By providing the facility for being able to point an application at a couple of different data source including one that's more modern, or which takes advantage of more modern technology, that can be considerably cheaper, it means the shop can elevate the story about the asset and the asset here is the data and the applications that run against it, not the hardware and the system where the data's stored and located. One of the biggest challenges, we talked earlier just to go on for a second, we talked earlier with a couple of other guests about the fact that the industry still, what your average person still doesn't understand how to value data. How to establish a data asset and one of the reasons is because it's so constantly co-mingled with the underlying hardware. >> And actually I'd even further go on, I think the advent of some of these cloud data warehouses forgets that notion of being able to run it different places and provides one of the things that customers are really looking for which is simplicity. The ability to spin up a quick MPP SQL system within say Amazon for example, almost without a doubt, a lot of the business users that I speak to are willing to sacrifice capabilities within the platform which they are for the simplicity of getting up and going. One of the things that we really focused on in V5 is being able to give that same turnkey feel and so Green Plum exists within the Amazon marketplace, within the Azure marketplace, Google later this quarter, and then in addition to the simplicity, it has all of the functionality that is missing in those platforms, again, all the analytics, all the ability to reach out and federate queries against different types of data, I think it's exciting as we continue to progress in our releases, Green Plum has, for a number of years, had this ability to seamlessly query HGFS. Like a lot of the competitors, but HGFS isn't going away, neither is a generic object store like S3. But we continue to extend that to things like Spark for example, so now the ability to actually house your data within a data platform and seamlessly integrate with Spark back and forth, if you want to use Spark, use Spark, but somewhere that data needs to be materialized so that other applications can leverage it as well. >> But even then people have been saying well, if you want to put it on this disk, then put it on this disk. Given the question about Spark versus another database manager is a higher level conversation than many of the shops who are investing millions and millions and millions of dollars in their analytic application portfolio and all you're trying to do is, as I interpret it, is trying to say look, the value in the portfolio is the applications and the data. It's not the underlying elements. There's a whole bunch of new elements we can use, you can put it in the cloud, you can put it on premise if that's where the data belongs. Use some of these new and evolving technologies, but you're focused on how the data and the applications continue to remain valuable to the business over time and not the traditional hardware assets. >> Correct and I'll again leverage a notion that we get from labs, which is this idea of user centric design and so everything that we've been putting into the Green Plum database is around, ideally the four primary users of our system. Not just the analysts and not just the data scientists, but also the operators and the IT folks. That is where I'd say the last tenant of where we're going really is this idea of coopetition. I would, as the Pivotal Green Plum guy that's been around for 10 plus years, I would tell you very straight up that we are again, an open source MPP data platform that can rival any other platform out there, whether it's terradata, whether it's Haduke, we can beat that platform. >> Why should customers call you up? Why should they call you? There's all this other stuff out there, you got legacy, you got terradata, might have other things, people are knocking at my door, they're getting pounded with sales messages, buy me I'm better than the other guy. Why Pivotal data? >> The first thing I would say is, the latest reviews from Gardner for example, well actually let me rewind. I will easily argue that terradata has been the data warehouse platform for the last 30 years that everyone has tried to emulate. I'd even argue so much as that when Haduke came on the scene eight years ago, what they did was they changed the dynamics and what they're doing now is actually trying to emulate the terradata success through things like SQL on top of Haduke. What that has basically gotten us to is we're looking for a terradata replacement at Haduke like prices, that's what Green Plum has to offer in spades. Now, if you actually extend that just a little bit, I still recognize that not everybody's going to call us, there are still 200 other vendors out there that are selling a similar product or similar kinds of stories. What I would tell you in response to those folks is that Green Plum has been around in production for the last 10 plus years, we're a proven technology for solving problems, many of those are not. We work very well in this cooperative spirit of, Green Plum can be the end all be all, but I recognize it's not going to be the end all be all so this is why we have to work within the ecosystem. >> You have to, open source is dominating. At the Linux event, we just covered open source summit, 90% of software written will be open source libraries, 10% is where the value's being added. >> For sure, if you were to start up a new star up right now, would you go with a commercial product? >> No, just postgres database is good. All right final question to end the segment. This big data space that's now being called data, certainly Strata, Haduke is now Strata Data, just trying to keep that show going longer. But you got Microsoft Azure making a lot of waves going on right now with Microsoft Ignite, so cloud is into the play here, data's changed, so the question is how has this industry changed over the past eight years. You go back to 2010, I saw Green Plum coming prior to even getting bought out, but they were kicking ass, same product evolved. Where has the space gone? What's happened, how would you summarize it to someone who's walking in for the first year like hey back in the old days, we used to walk to school in the snow with no shoes on both ways. Now it's like get off my lawn you young developers. Seriously what is the evolution of that, how would you explain it? >> Again, I would start with terradata started the industry, by far and then folks like Netease and Green Plum came around to really give a lower cost alternative. Haduke came on the scene eight some years ago, and what I pride myself in being at Green Plum for this long and Green Plum implemented the map produced paradigm as Haduke was starting to build and as it continued to build, we focused on building our own distribution and SQL and Haduke, I think what we're getting down to is the brass tacks of the business is tired of technological science experiments and they just want to get stuff done. >> And a cost of ownership that's manageable. >> And sustainable. >> And sustainable and not in a spot where they're going to be locked into a single vendor, hence the open source. >> The ones that are winning today employed what strategy that ended up working out and what strategy didn't end up working out, if you go back and say, the people who took this path failed, people who took this approach won. What's the answer there? >> Clearly anybody who was an appliance that has long since drifted. I'd also say Green Plum's in this unique position where, >> An appliance too though. >> Well, pseudo appliance yes, I still have to respond to that, we were always software. >> You pivoted luckily. >> But putting that aside, the hardware vendors have gone away, all of the software competitors that we had have actually either been sunset, sold off and forgotten and so Green Plum, here we sit as the sole standard or person that's been around for the long haul. We are now seeing a spot where we have no competition other than the forgotten really legacy guys like terradata. People are longing to get off of legacy and onto something modern, the trick will be whether that modern is some of these new and upcoming players and technologies, or whether it really focuses on solving problems. >> What's the strategy with the winning strategy? Stick to your knitting, stick to what you know or was it more of, >> For us it was two fold, one it was continuing to service our customers and make them successful so that was how we built a profitable data platform business and then the other was to double down on the strategies that seemed to be interesting to organizations which were cloud, open source, and analytics and like you said, I talked to one of the folks over at the Air Force and he was mentioning how to him, data's actually more important than fuel, being able to understand where the airplanes are, where the fuel is, where the people are, where the missiles are etc., that's actually more important than the fuel itself. Data is the thing that powers everything. >> Data's currency of everything now, great Jacque thinks so much for coming on the Cube, Pivotal Data Platform, Data Suite, Green Plum now with all these other adds, that's great congratulations. Stay on the path helping customers, you can't lose. >> Exactly. >> The Cube here helping you figure out the big data noise, we're obviously in big data New York City event for our annual, the annual Cube Wikibon event, in conjunction with Strata Data across the street, more live coverage here for three days here in New York City I'm John Furrier, Peter Burris, we'll be back after this short break. (electronic music)

[lively music] >> Man: Live from Santa Clara, in the heart of Silicon Valley, it's theCube, covering Cloud Foundry Summit 2017. Brought to you by the Cloud Foundry Foundation and Pivotal. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman with my cohost, John Troyer. Happy to welcome back to the program, actually a former colleague of mine, Cornelia Davis, Senior Director of Technology at Pivotal. Cornelia, it's great to see you. >> Thank you, thank you for having me. >> All right, so why don't you fill in our audience a little bit about your role at Pivotal, you've been involved since before the foundation in early days of everything happening. >> Yeah, and in fact I have been working with Cloud Foundry for longer than the Pivotal Company's existed. As you know, Stu, you and I used to work together at EMC in the corporate CTO office. >> Yeah, I remember a company named EMC. [Laughing] >> Yep. And I worked in the architecture group and we did architecture in emerging tech. And about five years ago, my boss, who you know, Tom McGuire, said, "You know, this platform as a service thing, I think is going to be pretty disruptive, and I want you to start looking at it. And so naturally we were EMC, VMware was incubating Cloud Foundry already, so I started playing with Cloud Foundry. So that was way back in the days of Cloud Foundry version 1.0. I'm one of those people who got to raise my hand and say, "Yes, I've been to every single Cloud Foundry Summit." [Stu Laughing] But fast forward then we had the Pivotal spin-off, and since the Pivotal spin-off, I joined the Cloud Foundry team proper, and I've been in a role working the product organization, working with James Waters, who I know you spoke to earlier today, and helping our customers kind of get their arms wrapped around what this...this isn't just the next application platform. How really, it's radically different, and how the applications, it enables a completely different style of application. And so really helping customers grok the differences about that. >> Yeah, Cornelia, I want you to help us dig into this a little bit, because when we look at any of these massive changes, a lot of times we say, you know, the technology is the easy part. It's really the change in mindset, the change in the structure, new skillsets. What are you seeing, what's different now than it was, say, three or five years ago, and what are those customer discussions that you're having? >> Yeah, and that's a great question, and I will say, and thanks for the opportunity to say this, is that the technology isn't always the easy part. [Stu laughs] So let me give you an example. So just earlier today I was on a call where somebody was talking about some user interviews that they had done with some programmers, and what they concluded at the end of that was that programmers really weren't comfortable with the "asynch" model for this particular API, and that they really wanted to just deal with the synchronous stuff. And the answer there is not that we say, "Oh, okay, we'll let you keep doing synchronous." The answer is that yes, there's a technology thing here that's hard, which is starting to think asynchronously and changing the way that we design our applications. So the technology's not always easy, but we have to go there, because in the cloud, where things are so extraordinarily distributed in a way, and the cloud is constantly changing in ways that it never did before, we have to adopt new technology models. So that's the first thing I'll say, is that we definitely, the technology parts are sometimes hard. That said, certainly over the course of the last four years, as I've worked with those customers, in the beginning, I spent a lot of time, as you know, I'm a technologist, so I spent a lot of time at the whiteboard, and sketching out architectures and talking about changes in the architecture of the platform or changes in the architecture of the application, but then I very quickly found myself talking to customers about the other things that are going to need to change around the edges. So if, for example, you want to start deploying software multiple times a day, you're going to have to change your processes, because you can't have the security office have to do a full audit of every change before it goes into production if it's going to happen three or four times a day. And if you do that, then does that imply organizational changes? So I spend a great deal of my time really talking about the whole DevOps and the people and process side of the equation as well. So last week, I was just - I'm part of the programming committee of the DevOps Enterprise Summit, and we just held that last week in London. And there we spent a lot of time talking about those elements as well. >> I spoke with somebody who was at that conference, and they said it was a little bit sobering, because there are people who have adopted a lot of these practices, and then there are people who are trying and then probably people who have not started yet. >> Cornelia: Yeah. >> As Coté calls them "the donkeys without the unicorn horns yet. >> Cornelia: Ah. >> But as you go out to the customer base, obviously part of what Pivotal is doing is really this huge Pivotal Apps push about showing people the culture. I mean, do you feel like it's a push or a pull, does the technology come first, and then the culture, does the CIO yell, or do the developers say, "We want this"? >> So we definitely get a little bit of both. I would say that I have had the great opportunity to work with a great number of these customers, so Allstate, for example, we've seen Allstate here at CF Summit year after year, and Opal spoke about Andy Zitney talking about this three or four years ago. Well, that was IT saying, "Hey," and that was more from the operations side saying, "Hey, we're going to build you a new platform," and then will they come? Now, they of course had to couple that together with, "Okay, we're not just going to build the platform, we have to put things in place to enable people to use it properly. So there's certainly- and that came a little bit more from Andy Zitney's vision. So it was a little bit more from the top, "Hey, we understand there's a better way, we're going to start making this available to you, and we'll teach you along the way." We absolutely see the opposite as well, though. Where we see the groundswell, which sometimes comes from a bunch of really smart people starting to play with the open source things. And saying, "Hey, there's got to be a better way," or the shadow IT. They're frustrated with the three-month cycles, and those things. So it isn't one answer, it's really both. It comes from both sides. >> All right. So Cornelia, you're good at understanding some of those next generation things. One of the terms that we've been talking about for the last couple of years is "cloud-native." Could you help us really kind of tease apart what that means in your customer base, and the way you approach and explain that? >> Yeah. So the term "cloud-native" is brilliant from the perspective of having a term for it that has really taken ahold. Because I would say that three years ago, I used to say to people, "Hey, cloud is not about where you're computing, it's about how you're computing." But in fact, that's not exactly accurate. And so, now that cloud-native is a term that's taken hold, I have modified my statement. And the statement that I like to make now is that, cloud, in fact, is where you compute. It could be a public cloud, it could be a private cloud, but it is more of a location. Cloud-native is the how. So I like to also characterize the cloud and cloud-native, really cloud-native applications, as two fundamental things. One is that cloud-native has reached levels of distribution that we have not seen before. We've been dealing with distributed systems and heck, in universities, there have been courses on distributed systems for 40 years. But even when I started my career 30 years ago, I started my career in aerospace doing embedded systems, and I remember working on a system where we had three processors. You know, that was as distributed as we got. And we actually mapped out on a whiteboard, okay, we're going to run this on this process and parallel with this on this process, and the point there is it was distributed, but we knew exactly what we had, and we could count on that being there. Now, it's reached a completely different, many many orders of magnitude more, in terms of the number of distributed components, as we go to microservices and those types of things. So that's one of the things that I characterize cloud and cloud-native, is highly distributed like we've never seen before. Couple that together with the other thing I just talked about with the embedded systems, that's very different from that, is constantly changing. Always changing. And whether that change is happening because of some catastrophe or that change is happening because we are doing an upgrade, a planned upgrade, it's constantly in flux. And so we have to do things differently for that. And so that, I think really, is what cloud-native is about, is the how, and like I said, highly distributed, constantly changing. >> All right. And what about the role of data, when we talk about that? Distributed architectures, storage is really tough in that kind of environment. >> Cornelia: Yep. >> And therefore, how does data play into it? >> Cornelia: Yeah, so cloud-native apps were really, as an industry starting, and here at CF Summit, people are really kind of grokking what that means. Highly distributed, small, loosely coupled components that we've put together, we'll talk about that collective in just a moment. But they're generally stateless and so on. So we understand cloud-native apps, but cloud-native involves data as well, as you said, now most of our customers that have, as you said, some of them are a little bit further along whether it's DevOps or it's cloud-native architectures, they're a little further along. And those that are quite far along, have a lot of microservices, and so you look at them, and if you look just at the microservices, you think, "Ah, beautiful. Loosely coupled, independent teams, and so on," and then you pull back the curtain, and you realize that those microservices are all tied to a shared database. There's this monolithic Oracle database or SQL server, something at the back end, that they're all tied to. And so in fact, when a team wants to make a rev on a microservice, they might still have to go through some of that planning and lockstep with lots of other teams, because, "Hey, I want to change something in the data." So the data, remember we just talked about highly distributed? Well, on the data side, it's not so highly distributed. Yes, we've got multi data centers, but we have, again, a predictable number of nodes. We know what we've got deployed. We have very rigid architectures and configurations and so on. So when we start to apply cloud-native to data, we look at the same goals we had with cloud-native applications, which is autonomy, so being able to have the different cloud-native components evolve independently, resilience, so that we have bulkheads and air gaps between them, all of those same goals, let's start to apply those to data. >> And you feel that that's not happening today yet. We're earlier in the process yet? >> It hasn't been happening. That's right. We're far far far earlier in the process. And so what we want to start to do is take that monolith that's sitting behind the curtain and we want to start breaking it apart. Now, the industry has definitely gotten to the point where they're starting to tackle this. And that was, I kind of had an epiphany about a year ago, I was working with a customer, talking to them about DevOps, talking about all these cloud-native patterns and practices, and the punch line was it was the data team of this organization. So they didn't understand the solutions, but they were understanding that they had pain points that were very reminiscent of the pain points that their colleagues in the application server teams had had, had been tackling for three or four years. So the types of technologies that we're starting to see emerge and the types of patterns we're starting to see emerge are things like unified logs, like applying Kafka to that problem of having a unified log and that be the source of record. And event-driven systems and those types of things. Every microservice gets its own database, which, yeah, we'll get some of that, but that's a kind of purist and not pragmatic way of looking at things. Caching plays a pretty big role in that, so caching in the past has been all about performance, but now when we start to look at patterns, how can we use caches to help us create those bulkheads and those air gaps so we get additional resilience in our microservices architecture? If we can put caches and there are companies like Netflix, like Twitter, who have done that, who have embedded caching deeply through their entire architecture. >> Well, do you think these technologies will come from the database or, well, let's call it the database projects and vendors themselves, or is that something, those patterns can get built into a platform, say, like Cloud Foundry? >> I think it's going to probably come more from the platform community, which is not to say that database vendors aren't thinking about that, but again, they are keeping the lights on with their existing product, so they have those quintessential business school constraints that are holding them back. >> A quick question on nomenclature. So a few years back as cloud-native was being coined, you also heard about 12-Factor apps, and that was one particular manifesto, and certainly the ops folks, I would call it at the time, said, "Well, wait a minute, that's great for your front end, but where are you storing your state?" >> Cornelia: Exactly. And so I love this conversation about >> Yep. cloud-native data. So that is what we're talking about here? >> That's exactly what we're talking about, is doing that. And so it allows us, it's interesting, because as soon as we take a model where we say, "Okay, every microservice gets its own microdatabase," then of course everybody in any large enterprise says, "Wait a minute, what about my data compliance, my data governance, how do I keep a customer that's stored in this database over here from diverging from the customer record that's stored in this other database?" I mean, we've spent decades talking about the 360 view of customers, because we've already been somewhat more fragmented than we wanted, and our knee-jerk reaction over the last several decades was, let's consolidate everything into one database. But with that comes slowness. It's the proverbial large, large ship that's hard to turn and hard to move. But what's different now is that we're starting to come up with some different patterns of doing that, what we call master data management in the past, we're applying completely different patterns now, where those individual microservice databases are really just seen as a materialized view of some source of record, and that source of record is just a time series of events, and you can always rebuild. You know, it's very interesting, because databases have had a log as a part of their architecture forever. For a very, very long time. And in fact, the log, arguably, is more important than any of the database tables that are stored on disk, because you can always recreate the database tables from the log. Now take that concept and distribute it. That's what cloud-native data is all about. To take what has been a single fabric, and now create a highly distributed, constantly changing fabric for data. And figuring out what those patterns are. >> Cornelia, I want to give you the final word. You've been to all the Cloud Foundry Summits. Either the customers or the event itself, what are some of the things that are kind of new and changing, that people that aren't at the show should know about? >> You know, I was walking down the hallway this afternoon, one thing I'll note that has changed, like I said, I was walking down the hallway with a colleague of mine, and he said, "I have 12 people from a single one of my customers here. 12 people." I spoke with somebody else who said, "Yep, another customer - not a vendor, but a customer - sent 30 people here." So we have- Cloud Foundry Summit in the beginning was a whole bunch of people who were the hobbyists, if you will. So I think we've reached that inflection point where we have the users, not just the hobbyists, but the true users that are going to leverage the platform. That's one thing that's changed. Some of the things- the other interesting thing I think that is really brilliant is the touch that the Cloud Foundry Foundation has. So I'll tell you, I submitted several papers here three years ago, when it was still the Pivotal Show. I could talk about whatever I wanted. I don't always get my papers accepted here now. And that is a good thing. That's a really good thing, so we have really democratized the community, so it truly is a community event. I think that's another thing that's happened, is kind of the democratization of Cloud Foundry, and I love that. >> Cornelia Davis, it's a pleasure to catch up with you, thank you so much for joining us. And John and I will be back with a couple of customers, actually, here at the Cloud Foundry Summit. So stay tuned and thanks for watching theCube. [lively music]

>> Announcer: Live from Santa Clara, in the heart of Silicon Valley, it's theCUBE. Covering Cloud Foundry Summit 2017. Brought to you by the Cloud Foundry Foundation and Pivotal. >> Welcome back. I'm Stu Miniman, joined by my cohost John Troyer. Happy to welcome back to the program, friend of theCUBE, James Watters SVP of Product at Pivotal. James, great to see you, and thanks for helping to get theCUBE to Cloud Foundry Summit. >> Yeah, I was just saying, this is the first time theCUBE is at CF Summit, so we're official now. We're all grown up. We're out in the daylight and you know you made it when theCUBE shows up, so excited to have you here. >> Absolutely. So a lot of things going on. We had Chip on talking about some of the big announcements. >> James: Yeah. >> From Pivotal's standpoint, what's some of the important milestones in releases happening. >> Yeah, I think in the simplest terms, the big new thing came out of our collaboration with Google is called Kubo, which is Kubernetes on BOSH. And I think that was a big move that got a lot of applause in the keynote when it was announced yesterday. And I think it shows two things. One is that Cloud Foundry really is going to embrace multiple ways of deploying artifacts and managing things, and that we're really the cloud native platform and willing to embrace container abstractions, app abstractions, data abstractions pretty uniquely, which is, there hasn't been another platform out there that embraces those with specialized ways of doing them. And I'm really excited about the customer response to that approach. >> Yeah, James, help us unpack that a little bit. So we look at the term seems this year, everybody, it's multi-cloud, we're all talking back-- >> James: Yeah. >> I think back to the days when we talked about platform as a service. One of the pieces was, oh, well, I should be able to have my application and move lots of places. That's what I heard when I talked about Cloud Foundry. When Docker came out everybody was like, oh PAS's dead, Docker's going to do this. When Kubernetes came out, oh wait, this takes the core value of what platform as a service has done. And today you're saying Kubo, Cloud Foundry, and Kubernetes with some BOSH, pulling it all together. Walk us through, 'cause it's nuanced. And there's pieces of that. So help us understand. >> Yeah, I like to say that even though sometimes you have open source communities have their own sense of identity, there's really not a god abstraction in cloud programming. Like there's not one abstraction that does it all. The simplest way you can see that is that people are interested in function as a service today. They're also interested in container as a service. Well, those two are not, they're not compatible. Right, like you don't deploy your whole Docker image to Amazon Lambda, but people are interested in both of those. And then, at the same time, there's this hyper growth of Spring Boot, which is, I think, the most efficient way of doing Java programming in the cloud, which is really at the core of our app abstraction. And so we see people, there's hyper growth, and function as a service, app as a service, especially with Spring Boot, and then also container. And I think the approach that we've had is beause there's not one god abstraction, that our platform needs to embrace all of those. And that actually, it's pretty intuitive, once you start using them, and you get beyond the slides and the buzz words. When to use one versus the other. And I think that's what users have been really excited about, is that Pivotal and Cloud Foundry communities embraced kind of that breadth, in terms of, different approaches to cloud native. Does that make sense to you, John? >> Yeah it's starting to, right? A lot of people like to do all or nothing about everything, right? >> James: Yeah. >> It's all going to be, we're going to be serverless by next year. And that doesn't make any sense at all. >> James: That's right. >> And so you have multiple programming models, like you said, multiple different kinds of abstractions, so when would somebody want to use, say containers, as a service, or container orchestration, versus some of the other application models. >> Yeah, it's a really, really great question. And I just had a really productive customer meeting this morning, where we went through that. They had some no-JS developers, that they said, look, these developers just want to get their code to production. They don't want to think about systems, they don't want to think about operating systems, they don't want to think about clusters. They're just like, here's my app, run it for me. And that's the core trick that Cloud Foundry's done the best of any platform in the world, which is CF Push, and so, for a no-JS developer, here's my app, run it for me, load balance it, health management, log aggregate it, give me quotas on my memory usage, everything. That's a good example of that. Then, they also had a team that was deploying Elasticsearch and some packaged applications. And they needed the level of control that Kubernetes in terms of pods, co-location, full control of a system image, the ability to do networking in certain ways, the ability to control storage. And you don't just take Elasticsearch and say here's my Elasticsearch tarball, run it for me. You actually start to set up a system, and that's where Kubernetes container as a service is perfect. Then the other question is how do you stitch those together, and you've seen the Kubernetes community adopt the Service broker API, the open Service Broker API out of Cloud Foundry, as a common way of saying, oh, I have an Elasticsearch over here, but I want to bind it to an application. Well, they use the CF services API. I think it's early days, but there's actually a coherent fabric forming across these different approaches, and it's also immediately intuitive. Like we didn't know, when we first conceived of adding Kubo to the mix, we didn't know what the educational level of education we have to provide, but it's been intuitive to every client I've talked so far, so that's fun for me to watch you say a few words like, oh, we get it. Yeah, we use that for this and this for this. >> All right, James, I have to up-level it a little bit, there. >> James: Little deep? >> You travel way more than I do. We kind of watch on social media. Prove me wrong, but i can't imagine when you're talking in the C-suite of a Fortune 100, pick your financial, or insurance company, that they are immersed in the languages and platform discussions that the hoodie crowd is. So where are you having those discussions? >> James: Yeah. >> One of the things, I come into the show and say Pivotal and Cloud Foundry are helping customers with that whole digital transformation. >> James: We are. >> And making that reality. So help us with that disconnect of, I'm down in the weeds trying to build this very complex stack, and the C-suite says, I want to be faster. >> I'll tell you what the C-suite has to solve. They've got to solve two things. One is they've got to deliver faster and more efficiently than ever before. That's their language, and our core app abstraction has been killer for digital transformation. Deliver apps faster, find your value line, and approach problems that way. They get that. That's why we've been succeeding economically, that's been a bit hit. But they also have another problem is, they want to retain talent, and when they're trying to retain talent some of those times, those folks are saying, well, we want little bit more control. We want to be able to use a container if we want, or think about something like Spring Cloud Data Flow to do high-end pipelines. And so they do care about having a partner in Pivotal and in Cloud Foundry, they can embrace those new trends. Because they've got to be able to not be completely top down in how they're enabling their organizations, while also encouraging efficiency. And so that's where the message of multiple abstractions really hits home for them, because they don't always want to referee some of the emerging trends and tech, and telling their team what they have to use. So by providing function, app, container, and data service, we can be the one partner that doesn't force that a priori in the discussion. Does that make sense? >> Is there friction ever, when saying, okay here, we've got this platform that actually is rather opinionated versus, hey, go choose everything open source and do whatever you want. I think that there's political boundaries between different parts of organization, this is a lot of what DevOps, I think, as a movement has been so important. Which is saying actually, you need to blur the political boundaries in the organization to get to faster end-to-end throughput and collaboration. So I think that's definitely a reality. At the same time, the ability that we've had to embrace these different approaches allows the level of empowerment that I think is appropriate. Like I think what we've been trying to do is not necessarily cater to a free-for-all, we've been saying, what are the right tools in the tool chest that people need to get their job done. So I think that's been very warmly received. So I guess I'd say that hasn't been a big problem for us. >> I want to ask you about the ecosystem. I think back when the ecosystem started, IBM, HPE, Cisco were big players. I come in this week, and it's Google Cloud, Microsoft Cloud, and Pivotal still is, last time I checked it was what, 70% of the code base created by Pivotal. >> James: I think it's 60 or 55 now. >> The change in the ecosystem what that means, and what that means to kind of open source, open core. >> Yeah, so I think in addition to the Kubo work that we've done, the other big news this week is that Microsoft joined the Cloud Foundry Foundation. So, essentially the largest software company in the world-- >> Wait, wait, Microsoft loves open source, I hear. Did you hear that one? >> They do. >> I know, it's still shocking for a lot of us that have known Microsoft for a long time, don't you think? And I'm not trying to be facetious, they totally are involved, I've talked to lots of Microsoft people. Kudos to them, they're doing a really good job. Even if I look at the big cloud guys and throw in VMware in there, Microsoft is one of the leaders in participating and embracing open source. >> They are and I think Corey Sanders, who got on stage, announced this, he leads the Azure virtual machine service, and a lot of the other Azure services for them, I think that their strategy is they want to run every workload. Like if you talk to Corey about it, he's like, you got workload, we want to be your partner. And I think that's been the change at Microsoft, is once you go into cloud, it's sort of like Pivotal embracing multiple program abstractions, right, once you have a platform you want as much critical mass on it as you can. And I think that's really helped Microsoft embrace the open source community in a very pragmatic way. Because they are a business, a company, right? And I think open source is required to do business in software these days, right, like in a way that it wasn't 10 years ago. As you look at your customer set and multi-cloud, right? From the very beginning multi-cloud was baked into the concept of Cloud Foundry. Like you said, just push, right? >> James: Yeah. >> So what do you see as common patterns? We've talked to folks already who, on-prem. Obviously, you all are running your CF service in partnership, your main one, your partnership with Google, You work with Amazon, what do you see in customer base, right? >> Yeah, so, let me just share a little bit from a good customer. This is a prospect conversation more, like someone who's starting the journey. They were currently running on-prem, on an OpenStack environment, which had some cost of maintenance for them. They were considering also using their vServer environment, to maybe not have to do as much customization of OpenStack. But there were certain geographies that they wanted to get into. They didn't want to build data centers. And what they were confronting was, they'd have to go learn networking and app management on a couple different clouds they wanted to use. And what they liked about our CF Fabric, across that, was that they said, oh, this is one operating model for any of those clouds. And that's the pattern that we see is that companies want to have one cloud operating model while there's five major cloud players today. So like how do those two forces in the market combine? And I think that's where multi-cloud becomes powerful. It's not necessarily multi-cloud for it's own sake, but it is the idea that you can engage and use multiple resources from these different data center providers without having to completely change your whole organization around it. Because taking on, how you run vServer versus OpenStack is different, as you know, right? >> Right, right, and talking about change, right? You and I were together at VMware when you launched this thing. >> James: Yeah. >> And there was a profound kind of conceptual chasm to leap for the VMware operators to figure out what was going on here. >> James: Yeah. >> So in this new world of services operation in multi-cloud, how are you seeing people, how's the adoption going, you just launched, or the foundation's launched its new certification stuff, can you talk a little bit about the new skill set needed, or how you're seeing people, the people formerly known as sys admins are now actually doing cloud operations. >> Well, I'm not sure if you saw Pat Gelsinger's announcement at Dell World, Dell EMC World, about developer-ready infrastructure. And I think this is a critical evolution that our partnership with VMware is more important than ever. Which is they're now saying all of these people that have been doing traditional system administration, you need to now offer developer-ready infrastructure. And this is an infrastructure that all the networking and network micro segmentation rules need to be there, all of the great things that the VMware admins have provided before needs to be there, but it needs to be turnkey for a developer. That developer shouldn't just get what we had and 2009, when you and I were working there together, which is like, here's a virtual machine, go build the rest of the environment. It should look more like, here's my application, run it for me. Here's my container, run it for me. And so what we're seeing is a lot of people upping their game now. To say, oh, the new thing is providing these services for developers 'cause that ties into digital transformation, ties into what the business is doing, ties into productivity. So I'm seeing a Renaissance of sys admins having a whole new set of tools. So that makes me excited. And one of the cool things we're seeing, I'd love to get your opinion on this is, this cool operating ratio of, we've had our clients present. Their administers of Cloud Foundry instances are able to run tens of thousands of apps in containers with two to four to five people. And so now they've got this super power, which is like, hey bring as many of the applications as the business needs to me. I can go run 10,000 app containers with a small team of people with a good lifestyle. To me, that's actually kind of incredible to see that leverage. >> Yeah, I think it's a huge shift, right? 'Cause you aren't setting up the VLANs and the micro segmentation and the rest of the stuff. >> Yeah, it's not all by hand, and so now the idea with our NSX partnership, is I'm really excited about, fun to talk to you about it. We used to work in Building E and have lunch out there, is that when you provision a CF app, we're working with the NSX team that all the segmentation will align with the app permissions. And this is a big deal, because it used to be that the network team and the app team didn't really have a good conduit of communication. So now it's like, okay I'm going to bind my app to this data service. I want NSX to make sure that permission is followed. To me, that's going to be a revolution of getting the app, and the DevOps teams and the networking teams to work together, clearly. So I'm pumped about that. >> Running low on time. A couple of quick questions about Pivotal. Number one is, now that you're doing Kubo, could we expect to see Pivotal join the CNCF? So EMC is is joining the CNCF. We have friendly relations with the CNCF, I don't think that's at all out of the cards. I just know current, I don't have any news on that today. But we've been very friendly with them, and we started working with Google on that, so no immediate plans there, but we'd be open to that, I believe. >> Okay, and secondly, my understanding, the last announcement on revenue, you can't speak to the IPO or anything, James, above your pay grade, but $275 million in billing on PCF, did I get that right? What do you see is kind of the mix of how you're revenued, are you a software company, a services company? The big data versus the cloud piece. How do we look at Pivotal going forward? >> Yeah, what'd I say is I primarily oversee the Cloud Foundry portion of what we do. And services are an incredibly important part of our mix, Pivotal labs. When you think about this developer-ready infrastructure tend, like a lot of the way you organize your developers can change too. So we talked about how the sys admins jobs change. They gets this platform scale, well the developer's job has changed now, too. They have to learn how to do CICD, they've got to learn how to potentially turn around agile requirements from the business on a weekly basis versus every six months. So Pivotal labs has certainly been critical to that mix for us. But PCF in and of itself, has been a very successful software business. And I think, I believe can grow into the billions of dollars a year in software, and that's what kind of keeps me excited about every day. >> All right, James, I want to give you the final word. You speak to so many customers. >> James: A few. >> The whole digital transformation thing, what are you seeing? How do we help customers along that moving faster. >> That's a, it's a big topic. And the thing that's really interesting about what PCF does is, that it helps people change their organizations, not just their technology. And this has certainly happened in the vServer environment, right? Like it would change your organization, but we're even going higher, which is like, how are your developers organized? How operating teams organize. How you think about security. How you think about patching. Like the reason why I agree that it's transformative, is that it's not just a change of technology, it's these new technologies allow you to rebuild your organization end-to-end, of how it delivers business results. And that makes it both a humbling and an exciting time to be in the industry, because I personally, don't have all the answers every time. People ask about organizations and what to do there. Those are complex issues, but I think we've tried to partner with them to go on that journey together. >> Unfortunately, James, we're going to have to leave it there. We will definitely catch up with you at many more events later this year. And we'll be back with more coverage here from the Cloud Foundry Summit 2017. You're watching theCUBE. (techno music)

>> Commentator: Live from Palo Alto, it's theCUBE, covering Women Transforming Technology 2017, brought to you by VMware. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of Women Transforming Technology held at VMware. I'm your host Rebecca Knight. Joining me today is Cornelia Davis. She is the Senior Director of Technology at Pivotal which is the Palo Alto-based company that provides Agile development services on an open source platform. Thank you so much for joining us. >> Thank you for having me. I'm so happy to be here. >> So before the cameras were rolling, you started telling me a little bit about your personal story. You're a woman in tech who loves the tech, but you said for the past three years, you've also become an activist and an evangelist for getting more women into this business. Tell us about that transformation. >> Yes, I'll tell you a little bit about that story. I have the gray hair to prove it. I've been doing this for some time. I actually was a woman studying computer science back in the day where we were getting close to equity. >> Rebecca: There was a time when it was-- >> Yeah, there was so back in the '80s, I was majoring in computer science and I think that we were close to 40% at the time, although I have to say even before I was in college, I was always the girl who was out playing soccer with the boys at lunch time. Gender never really seemed to make much of a difference to me but anyway, I got a degree in computer science and then I spent 25 years in the industry and sure, there were times where I would notice that I was the only woman in the room. Actually I would say maybe three or four years ago, I went to a customer opening where they were catering to the developer community and in the room there were 250 developers, I was the only woman. I mean seriously, I was the only woman of 250 and I was like wow. But other than notice it and chuckle about it and even have some of those experiences where maybe somebody assumed that I was the HR person and not the technologist, those types of things, I never really did anything about it. And then about three years ago, I had the great fortune of meeting Robin Hauser Reynolds and Stacy Hartmann who are the two women behind the movie Code: Debugging the Gender Gap, you've seen it? >> Rebecca: Yes, yes. >> A fantastic film, a fantastic piece and had this opportunity to meet them and got involved in the film and Pivotal became a sponsor. They did some of the filming. They did some interviewing of people at Pivotal and it was through that experience and then I got to go to some of the screenings and participate in panels and so on and it was through that experience that I started to understand that it wasn't just curiosity, that it was actually declining, the numbers were declining and that it was a real serious problem. And so after being in the industry for 25 years and not really doing anything about it, I've become an activist and so I spend a lot of time jabbing on about this. I'll give you another example. Last year in January, Pivotal brought most of the company together here in the Bay Area. We brought about 1,200 people into the Bay Area for worldwide kickoff. And the very first talk that they had after our CEO spoke was a talk on diversity and they actually invited me to come up and speak about gender diversity or lack thereof in technology and talked about the Girls Who Code and some of those great programs out there. >> I want to get back to Girls Who Code because I know that you're passionate about it, but I want to also just get back to the moment that you described where you went from chuckling about being the only woman in the room and saying, "Oh it's not silly," to really feeling, "Hey this isn't right. "I want things to be different." What was that moment? Are you trying to recreate that moment for other women as a wake up call? How would you describe your activism? >> I don't know that it was a moment, but the thing that catalyzes me, the thing that makes me really passionate about doing this is that I have this tremendous opportunity. The way that I came into computing personally was at the end of my sophomore year in high school when we were signing up for classes the following year, I was looking at what might I sign up for and I signed up for a computer programming class and then I went off and I joked around that I went off and had a bitchin' summer. That's the stuff we said in the '80s. I went off and had a bitchin' summer. >> We should bring that word back. Let's do it, Cornelia. >> It's a good word. And I came back and had this computer class on my schedule and I was like, "Uh no, no, no, no. "There is no way I'm doing this." And I skipped class for the first two or three days and then I finally went and curiosity got the better of me. I tried it out and I was hooked. Literally that was the moment, not for my activism, but that was the moment where I had like, "Oh my gosh, this is going to change everything. "This is what want to I do." And that's what brought me to computing and that's what makes me an activist now because I didn't realize for those 25 years that other people didn't have those opportunities, that they were actually systemically being discouraged from having those opportunities and so I think that's at the core of my activism is I want people to have the opportunity because I love what I do so much and I think I was mentioning before before we started rolling the cameras that I've been a technologist my whole career. Occasionally I've branched off and tried to do maybe a little bit more leadership or a little bit more of that, but I love the tech so much and it's such a great wonderful career to be in, self-sustaining and all of those things, I want other people to have that opportunity. That's what gets me going. >> I was reading a bio where you're a self-described propeller head and you can find her knee deep in the code and now you want to inspire the next generation and so you've gotten involved with Girls Who Code. Tell us more. >> Yes so it wasn't actually through the film. I think it was just simply, it was serendipitous, right around the time that I was starting to awaken to what was going on in the industry. Working for Pivotal, Pivotal in our San Francisco office, it's a very cool office. It's very different from what I saw in most of my career which was cube farms. It's a very open floor plan, very hip, just a cool place to be. >> What the rest of us East Coasters envisions Silicon Valley to be. >> Yeah, it's really pretty cool. And so the Girls Who Code, for those of you who might be watching that don't know about the Girls Who Code, it's an organization that really targets high school girls and their flagship program is in the summer they have a seven-week immersion program where they bring girls in and they basically code, they learn to code from nine to five every day for seven weeks. It's a pretty intensive program. Well about three years ago, we weren't sponsoring at that level, but we would be a field trip location. One of our close partners, investors, customers, is General Electric. They hosted a group of these 20 girls in their San Ramon office. They came to us for a couple of summers as a field trip location and of course the girls loved it. They walk off the elevator there's snacks, there's drinks. We parent programmed with them. It's a really cool experience. And then last summer, we actually took the next step and hosted our own groups so we had a group of 20 young women who were here in our Palo Alto office for seven weeks learning to code and I had the wonderful opportunity to spend time with them several times throughout the summer and I actually commute to the Bay Area, not everyday but I commute to the Bay Area and the days that I was coming up here in part to see the girls, I'd wake up at four in the morning for my flight and I'd be like, "I get to spend time with the girls today," and I saw it. I saw the girls who in the first week were clearly there because their parents made them be there and they're sitting there like this and they've got the same attitude that I had when I was in high school the first three days like I am not doing this and the same people are standing up at the graduation ceremony at the end of the seven weeks saying, "This changed my life." And one of those young women I'm spending a little bit more time with is now a computer science major at Northwestern, early decision. It's just fantastic to see that light up. That's what gets me going. >> Now why high school? I get high school in the sense that they're old enough to take on a summer job like internship, but what is it about that age do you think that is so critical? >> Yeah so that age, I'll be honest with you, I think is almost too late for a lot of girls because we are able to reach, I just mentioned, that there were girls in there whose parents forced them into that. They had already self-selected out. Just like I had when I was in high school. I had self-selected out. I was way too cool to be in computing and so in some ways high school is a little bit too late. However, I think you nailed it, is that there's an opportunity there that they're mature enough that you can do something as immersive as a seven-week program and these girls are tremendous. These girls after a seven-week program are going back to their high schools and being the president of their Girls Who Code after school clubs and teaching them and I was just spending some time, we had a hangout with them recently where they said when their friends are asking, "What are you going to do this summer?" And the girls said, "I have no idea, "but you know what you should do "is you should do Girls Who Code." She said, "That's all I want to do. "I just want to do Girls Who Code all over again." And so I think you're right, I think it's opportunistic in that they're ready, but unfortunately I think it, like I said, it self-selects a lot of people out. I think fundamentally the thing that we need to do to reach the younger grades, the younger students, is it needs to be part of the curriculum. It absolutely 100% needs to be part of primary school curriculum so that they can get hooked and understand what it is before they self-select out because they're self-selecting out based on a perception and the image that they have of what it is, the Silicon Valley show, that's a perception. Sure it's satyr but young people see that and they don't see it as that. It just looks like something where there's a whole bunch of misbehaving men treating women poorly. >> So on that actually Cornelia, what do you make of the really distressing news that we're hearing that's not necessarily new, there has been the Uber bombshell of last week, but what we know about the culture here and maybe why there were so many women and it was almost 50/50 and then we started to see a drastic change and lower numbers of women in computer science and a lot of women just saying, "Ew, I don't want to be part of that. "I don't want that for my career." What do you say to them and what do you say to the men who are not even knowingly discouraging them from that kind of career? >> Oh, I love what you just said, not even knowingly. One of the things that I spend a lot of time talking with folks about every chance I get is implicit bias. I think that there's definitely overt sexism and in the last week we've seen that big in the news and that is a huge problem. I think I've heard statistics of whatever 60% of women have some level of relatively overt sexism, 100% of us get the implicit, the non-overt, and people who are well-meaning saying things, when they say for example, I was just chatting with a young lady a couple of weeks ago. She's a sophomore in college and she was telling me that last summer during her internship, within the first week or two, her boss was talking to her about her career plans moving forward and was already encouraging her to go more into management than into technology. This person was not evil, wasn't trying to keep women out of technology or keep women out of the most technical parts of a technology career, but he really genuinely believed that, "Maybe women are better at that and not so good at this," and it's really just our implicit biases. So I think that's a big part of it. And for the last year or two, I've been talking about implicit bias and I've been talking about the compensating mechanisms so first of all recognizing your implicit biases and then being conscious about them and then consciously combating them. I've become in the last several months, I would say six months, I've become more and more interested in the idea of how do we actually change those implicit biases. >> And this is men and women. It's not just the men here. >> No question because when I've had conversations where I've spoken for example on implicit bias, I've had women come up to me afterward and say, "I signed my son up for a coding camp. "I never even thought about signing up my daughter." >> Rebecca: Oh, that hurts. >> And I was like, "So you're signing her up now, right?" She's like, "Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah." And so I think it's really interesting to start thinking about how do we actually get rid of them? It's one thing to recognize them and then fight them, but it's another thing to get rid of them. I think the only way we can get rid of them goes back to the statistics that we talked about early on which is I am surprised when I see a woman technologist. That's just the way our brains work. We categorize things. >> We have an idea in our head of what that person looks like. >> We put things in buckets. We wouldn't be able to function in this world with so many different inputs unless we put things into buckets and we just put things into buckets largely based on statistics. And so I'm becoming increasingly interested in really amplifying the voice of women in technology because when we hear women's voices in technology, women who are up there not talking about what we're talking about today which is the gender imbalance, but talking about the tech itself, then we start to normalize, then we start to re-categorize things in our brains so that we're not surprised when we hear a woman talking about something deeply technical or somebody who's doing particle physics or something like that, we're not surprised anymore and say, "Wow she's a rocket scientist," it's normal. That's what I'm interested in doing is getting that to be the norm, not the exception. I think the first step what I would say to people, what I do say to men and women across the industry is first of all recognize it and then let's see what we can do to change it. >> Cornelia Davis, thank you so much. That's good advice, that's good advice. And we'll be right back with theCUBE's coverage of Women Transforming Technology here at VMware. (modern techno music)

(intro music plays) >> Okay, welcome back to Supercloud 2. I'm John Furrier with my co-host, Dave Vellante, here in our Palo Alto Studio, with a live performance all day unpacking the wave of Supercloud. This is our second edition. Back for keynote review here is Vittorio Viarengo, talking about the hype and the reality of the Supercloud momentum. Vittorio, great to see you. You got a presentation. Looking forward to hearing the update. >> It's always great to be here on this stage with you guys. >> John Furrier: (chuckles) So the business imperative for cloud right now is clear and the Supercloud wave points to the builders and they want to break through. VMware, you guys have a lot of builders in the ecosystem. Where do you guys see multicloud today? What's going on? >> So, what we see is, when we talk with our customers is that customers are in a state of cloud chaos. Raghu Raghuram, our CEO, introduced this term at our user conference and it really resonated with our customers. And the chaos comes from the fact that most enterprises have applications spread across private cloud, multiple hyperscalers, and the edge increasingly. And so with that, every hyperscaler brings their own vertical integrated stack of infrastructure development, platform security, and so on and so forth. And so our customers are left with a ballooning cost because they have to train their employees across multiple stacks. And the costs are only going up. >> John Furrier: Have you talked about the Supercloud with your customers? What are they looking for when they look at the business value of Cross-Cloud Services? Why are they digging into it? What are some of the reasons? >> First of all, let's put this in perspective. 90, 87% of customers use two or more cloud including the private cloud. And 55%, get this, 55% use three or more clouds, right? And so, when you talk to these customers they're all asking for two things. One, they find that managing the multicloud is more difficult than the private cloud. And that goes without saying because it's new, they don't have the skills, and they have many of these. And pretty much everybody, 87% of them, are seeing their cost getting out of control. And so they need a new approach. We believe that the industry needs a new approach to solving the multicloud problem, which you guys have introduced and you call it the Supercloud. We call it Cross-Cloud Services. But the idea is that- and the parallel goes back to the private cloud. In the private cloud, if you remember the old days, before we called it the private cloud, we would install SAP. And the CIO would go, "Oh, I hear SAP works great on HP hardware. Oh, let's buy the HP stack", right? (hosts laugh) And then you go, "Oh, oh, Oracle databases. They run phenomenally on Sun Stack." That's another stack. And it wasn't sustainable, right? And so, VMware came in with virtualization and made everything look the same. And we unleashed a tremendous era of growth and speed and cost saving for our customers. So we believe, and I think the industry also believes, if you look at the success of Supercloud, first instance and today, that we need to create a new level of abstraction in the cloud. And this abstraction needs to be at a higher level. It needs to be built around the lingua franca of the cloud, which is Kubernetes, APIs, open source stacks. And by doing so, we're going to allow our customers to have a more unified way of building, managing, running, connecting, and securing applications across cloud. >> So where should that standardization occur? 'Cause we're going to hear from some customers today. When I ask them about cloud chaos, they're like, "Well, the way we deal with cloud chaos is MonoCloud". They sort of put on the blinders, right? But of course, they may be risking not being able to take advantage of best-of-breed. So where should that standardization layer occur across clouds? >> [Vittorio Viarengo] Well, I also hear that from some customers. "Oh, we are one cloud". They are in denial. There's no question about it. In fact, when I met at our user conference with a number of CIOs, and I went around the room and I asked them, I saw the entire spectrum. (laughs) The person is in denial. "Oh, we're using AWS." I said, "Great." "And the private cloud, so we're all set." "Okay, thank you. Next." "Oh, the business units are using AWS." "Ah, okay. So you have three." "Oh, and we just bought a company that is using Google back in Europe." So, okay, so you got four right there. So that person in denial. Then, you have the second category of customers that are seeing the problem, they're ahead of the pack, and they're building their solution. We're going to hear from Walmart later today. >> Dave Vellante: Yeah. >> So they're building their own. Not everybody has the skills and the scale of Walmart to build their own. >> Dave Vellante: Right. >> So, eventually, then you get to the third category of customers. They're actually buying solutions from one of the many ISVs that you are going to talk with today. You know, whether it is Azure Corp or Snowflake or all this. I will argue, any new company, any new ISV, is by definition a multicloud service company, right? And so these people... Or they're buying our Cross-Cloud Services to solve this problem. So that's the spectrum of customers out there. >> What's the stack you're focusing on specifically? What is VMware? Because virtualization is not going away. You're seeing a lot more in the cloud with networking, for example, this abstraction layer. What specifically are you guys focusing on? >> [Vittorio Viarengo] So, I like to talk about this beyond what VMware does, just 'cause I think this is an industry movement. A market is forming around multicloud services. And so it's an approach that pretty much a whole industry is taking of building this abstraction layer. In our approach, it is to bring these services together to simplify things even further. So, initially, we were the first to see multicloud happening. You know, Raghu and Sanjay, back in what, like 2016, 17, saw this coming and our first foray in multicloud was to take this sphere and our hypervisor and port it natively on all the hyperscaling, which is a phenomenal solution to get your enterprise application in the cloud and modernize them. But then we realized that customers were already in the cloud natively. And so we had to have (all chuckle) a religion discussion internally and drop that hypervisor religion and say, "Hey, we need to go and help our customers where they are, in a native cloud". And that's where we brought back Pivotal. We built tons around it. We shifted. And then Aria. And so basically, our evolution was to go from, you know, our hypervisor to cloud native. And then eventually we ended up at what we believe is the most comprehensive multicloud services solution that covers Application Development with Tanzu, Management with Aria, and then you have NSX for security and user computing for connectivity. And so we believe that we have the most comprehensive set of integrated services to solve the challenges of multicloud, bringing excess simplicity into the picture. >> John Furrier: As some would say, multicloud and multi environment, when you get to the distributed computing with the edge, you're going to need that capability. And you guys have been very successful with private cloud. But to be devil's advocate, you guys have been great with private cloud, but some are saying like, you guys don't get public cloud yet. How do you answer that? Because there's a lot of work that you guys have done in public cloud and it seems like private cloud successes are moving up into public cloud. Like networking. You're seeing a lot of that being configured in. So the enterprise-grade solutions are moving into the cloud. So what would you say to the skeptics out there that say, "Oh, I think you got private cloud nailed down, but you don't really have public cloud." (chuckles) >> [Vittorio Viarengo] First of all, we love skeptics. Our engineering team love skeptics and love to prove them wrong. (John laughs) And I would never ever bet against our engineering team. So I believe that VMware has been so successful in building a private cloud and the technology that actually became the foundation for the public cloud. But that is always hard, to be known in a new environment, right? There's always that period where you have to prove yourself. But what I love about VMware is that VMware has what I believe, what I like to call "enterprise pragmatism". The private cloud is not going away. So we're going to help our customers there, and then, as they move to the cloud, we are going to give them an option to adopt the cloud at their own pace, with VMware cloud, to allow them to move to the cloud and be able to rely on the enterprise-class capabilities we built on-prem in the cloud. But then with Tanzu and Aria and the rest of the Cross-Cloud Service portfolio, being able to meet them where they are. If they're already in the cloud, have them have a single place to build application, a single place to manage application, and so on and so forth. >> John Furrier: You know, Dave, we were talking in the opening. Vittorio, I want to get your reaction to this because we were saying in the opening that the market's obviously pushing this next gen. You see ChatGPT and the success of these new apps that are coming out. The business models are demanding kind of a digital transformation. The tech, the builders, are out there, and you guys have a interesting view because your customer base is almost the canary in the coal mine because this is an Operations challenge as well as just enabling the cloud native. So, I want to get your thoughts on, you know, your customer base, VMware customers. They've been in IT Ops for generations. And now, as that crowd moves and sees this Supercloud environment, it's IT again, but it's everywhere. It's not just IT in a data center. It's on-premises, it's cloud, it's edge. So, almost, your customer base is like a canary in the coal mine for this movement of how do you operationalize multiple environments? Which includes clouds, which includes apps. I mean, this is the core question. >> [Vittorio Viarengo] Yeah. And I want to make this an industry conversation. Forget about VMware for a second. We believe that there are like four or five major pillars that you need to implement to create this level of abstraction. It starts from observability. If you don't know- You need to know where your apps are, where your data is, how the the applications are performing, what is the security posture, what is their performance? So then, you can do something about it. We call that the observability part of this, creating this abstraction. The second one is security. So you need to be- Sorry. Infrastructure. An infrastructure. Creating an abstraction layer for infrastructure means to be able to give the applications, and the developer who builds application, the right infrastructure for the application at the right time. Whether it is a VM, whether it's a Kubernetes cluster, or whether it's microservices, and so on and so forth. And so, that allows our developers to think about infrastructure just as code. If it is available, whatever application needs, whatever the cost makes sense for my application, right? The third part of security, and I can give you a very, very simple example. Say that I was talking to a CIO of a major insurance company in Europe and he is saying to me, "The developers went wild, built all these great front office applications. Now the business is coming to me and says, 'What is my compliance report?'" And the guy is saying, "Say that I want to implement the policy that says, 'I want to encrypt all my data no matter where it resides.' How does it do it? It needs to have somebody logging in into Amazon and configure it, then go to Google, configure it, go to the private cloud." That's time and cost, right? >> Yeah. >> So, you need to have a way to enforce security policy from the infrastructure to the app to the firewall in one place and distribute it across. And finally, the developer experience, right? Developers, developers, developers. (all laugh) We're always trying to keep up with... >> Host: You can dance if you want to do... >> [Vittorio Viarengo] Yeah, let's not make a fool of ourselves. More than usual. Developers are the kings and queens of the hill. They are. Why? Because they build the application. They're making us money and saving us money. And so we need- And right now, they have to go into these different stacks. So, you need to give developers two things. One, a common development experience across this different Kubernetes distribution. And two, a way for the operators. To your point. The operators have fallen behind the developers. And they cannot go to the developer there and tell them, "This is how you're going to do things." They have to see how they're doing things and figure out how to bring the gallery underneath so that developers can be developers, but the operators can lay down the tracks and the infrastructure there is secure and compliant. >> Dave Vellante: So two big inferences from that. One is self-serve infrastructure. You got- In a decentralized cloud, a Supercloud world, you got to have self-serve infrastructure, you got to be simple. And the second is governance. You mentioned security, but it's also governance. You know, data sovereignty as we talked about. So the question I have, Vittorio, is where does the customer start? >> [Vittorio Viarengo] So I, it always depends on the business need, but to me, the foundational layer is observability. If you don't know where your staff is, you cannot manage, you cannot secure it, you cannot manage its cost, right? So I think observability is the bar to entry. And then it depends on the business needs, right? So, we go back to the CIO that I talked to. He is clearly struggling with compliance and security. >> Hosts: Mm hmm. >> And so, like many customers. And so, that's maybe where they start. There are other customers that are a little behind the head of the pack in terms of building applications, right? And so they're looking at these, you know, innovative companies that have the developers that get the cloud and build all these application. They are leader in the industry. They're saying, "How do I get some of that?" Well, the way you get some of that is by adopting modern application development and platform operational capabilities. So, that's maybe, that's where they should start. And so on and so forth. It really depends on the business. To me, observability is the foundational part of this. >> John Furrier: Vittorio, we've been on this conversation with you for over a year and a half now with Supercloud. You've been a leader in seeing the wave, you and Raghu and the team at VMware, among other industry leaders. This is our second event. If you're- In the minute and a half that we have left, when you get asked, "what is this Supercloud multicloud Cross-Cloud thing? What's it mean?" I mean, I mentioned earlier, the market, the business models are changing, tech's changing, society needs more economic value out of the cloud. Builders are out there. If someone says, "Hey, Vittorio, what's the bottom line? What's really going on? Why should I pay attention to this wave? What's going on?" How would you describe the relevance of Supercloud? >> I think that this industry is full of smart vendors and smart customers. And if we are smart about it, we look at the history of IT and the history of IT repeats itself over and over again. You follow the- He said, "Follow the money." I say, "Follow the developers." That's how I made my career. I follow great developers. I look at, you know, Kit Colbert. I say, "Okay. I'm going to get behind that guy wherever he is going." And I try to add value to that person. I look at Raghu and all the great engineers that I was blessed to work with. And so the engineers go and explore new territories and then the rest of the stacks moves around. The developers have gone multicloud. And just like in any iteration of IT, at some point, the way you get the right scales at the right cost is with abstractions. And you can see it everywhere from, you know, bits and bytes, integration, to SOA, to APIs and microservices. You can see it now from best-of-breed hyperscaler across multiple clouds to creating an abstraction layer, a Supercloud, that creates a unified way of building, managing, running, securing, and accessing applications. So if you're a customer- (laughs) A minute and a half. (hosts chuckle) If you are customers that are out there and feeling the pain, you got to adopt this. If you are customers that is behind and saying, "Maybe you're in denial" look at the customers that are solving the problems today, and we're going to have some today. See what they're doing and learn from them so you don't make the same mistakes and you can get there ahead of it. >> Dave Vellante: Gracely's Law, John. Brian Gracely. That history repeats itself and- >> John Furrier: And I think one of these, "follow the developers" is interesting. And the other big wave, I want to get your comment real quick, is that developers aren't just application developers. They're network developers. The stack has completely been software-enabled so that you have software-defined networking, you have all kinds of software at all aspects of observability, infrastructure, security. The developers are everywhere. It's not just software. Software is everywhere. >> [Vittorio Viarengo] Yeah. Developers, developers, developers. The other thing that we can tell, I can tell, and we know, because we live in Silicon Valley. We worship developers but if you are out there in manufacturing, healthcare... If you have developers that understand this stuff, pamper them, keep them happy. (hosts laugh) If you don't have them, figure out where they hang out and go recruit them because developers indeed make the IT world go round. >> John Furrier: Vittorio, thank you for coming on with that opening keynote here for Supercloud 2. We're going to unpack what Supercloud is all about in our second edition of our live performance here in Palo Alto. Virtual event. We're going to talk to customers, experts, leaders, investors, everyone who's looking at the future, what's being enabled by this new big wave coming on called Supercloud. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. We'll be right back after this short break. (ambient theme music plays)

(upbeat music) >> Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome back to theCUBE Live in Detroit, Michigan. Lisa Martin here with John Furrier. We are covering KubeCon + CloudNativeCon '22. John, this is day two of our coverage wall-to-wall three days of coverage on theCUBE. We've been talking a lot about the developer and how the world is starting to really revolve around developer and DevOps portfolios. >> Yes, developers, startups, big companies, all transforming. This next segment, we want to hear from how Dell Technologies cloud natives, big time strategy there and looking forward to it. It's good. It's going to be a great segment. >> Yes, please welcome back one of our alumni to theCUBE. Brad Maltz is here, Senior Director of DevOps Portfolio and DevRel for Dell Technologies. Good to see you. >> Thank you guys for having me. >> So, Dell at KubeCon, what's going on? >> Yeah, that's literally the most common question I'm getting. So for us, it's a lot about our customer base is making that transformation into a DevOps world. And they have a ton of Dell and they're like, Hey, from a Dell perspective, how do you help us make that transformation into a DevOps operating model? So we're here to explain that. We're here to talk about infrastructure as code, our container Kubernetes story, our multi-cloud story. We're talking about all of it. >> Tell us about those stories and what the value is in it for companies to work with Dell as they transition. >> So when we look at it from a DevOps perspective for us, it's all about the culture, the operating model shift they're trying to make. And what that means to them is they have to figure out how do they automate all of the stacks they have to deal with. Whether it's going to be server, storage, data protection, network, and all the way up through the hypervisor and Kubernetes. That means they need to work with an ecosystem of tools. Things like Ansible, things like Terraform, all that stuff. Our job is to make our portfolio more consumable in the infrastructure as code space. That's one part of the discussion. The second part of the conversation is Kubernetes won. Kubernetes won the abstraction in this multi-cloud world and we as Dell are helping our customers consume Kubernetes. Whether it's by bringing solutions and more appliance oriented mentality to the market or whether it's actually enabling them with our container storage modules and CSI drivers. >> So it as supercloud as we call or multi-cloud as some people call it, you're starting to see the abstraction for interoperability, but essentially just distributed hybrid cloud. Edge as you guys have a big presence. So Dell's supplying not just the data center anymore. Cloud models are moving to hybrid on-premises, edge is growing. We saw some great use cases where military applications are using Kubernetes and all kinds of new things. So this real examples happening right now. This is going to impact Dell's customers and Dell as a supplier of compute and servers. And the gear that runs everything. Like at a telco, you can have a data center at an edge spot, like a box could be a data center. >> Telco is a great example cause we created the business, the Telco business unit. And in the Telco business unit, our goal was, hey, telco is a little different than enterprise edge. Enterprise edge, retail, manufacturing, healthcare. They have certain needs. Telco, much smaller group of customers that have a much different set of needs. And that's very similar is how do we scale at the edge? How do we control things programmatically? How do we do it in a secure way? And how do we do it so that our people internally don't have to deal with the underpinnings of all that infrastructure. Just make it easier for them. That's our goal through the edge discussions, through telco and all that. >> Yeah. We've been doing a big thing on why hardware matters. Hardware's back. We look at all the hyperscalers, the big competition is faster, faster, faster chips, faster the physics. This is part of the supply chain both hardware and software. Okay. So developers want more power. At the end of the day, this community here wants invisible infrastructure and they want it fast. >> Brad: Yes, that's exactly right. >> There's a lot under the hub. It's still servers. >> You still got firmware, you still got bio, you still got to management operating system, You still got to patch things, kernels, security issues, all of that from a server perspective. We haven't even talked about storage or networking or any of the other stuff. So there's a ton of buttons and dials under the covers. >> And that's totally going to be awesome. And the question comes in, okay, now take me to the cloud native because automation, infrastructures code, these are now the hotspots. Software supply chain, not hardware, software supply chain. So these are all things that are going to be intersecting. What's your view? >> In the multi-cloud view of the world, what we really have are our customers are saying, okay, we started on one cloud, Amazon or Azure or Google. And they're like, you know what? We had to go to a second cloud for whatever reason, many reasons. Now we have to manage two clouds. And by the way, we never got fully off-prem. So now we have all of our on-premises stuff plus multiple clouds. How do we deal with the complexity there? And the complexity there is everything from data problems of data mobility, data protection, replication, all that stuff. How do we deal with the actual application life cycle management across that? And that's where a lot of the tooling we're discussing comes in. That's where Kubernetes comes in and they want to do it in an agnostic way. 'Cause if they can't begin to transition to do it in a standardized layer, then the end of the day they're still going to be managing three totally different environments with three separate engineering teams. >> So is your target audience primarily existing Dell customers, legacy customers, or is it really wide open? >> It's actually been opening up. So we have kind of, the way I view it is we have three different segments that we're going to be going after. We have what I would say is the top 10% of the industry that's really able to skill up into this DevOps world very quickly. They're going to go after the GitOps, they're going to go after all those things. That's a combination of existing customers, but also the really, really large customers that can build their own clouds on-premises. We then have the other end of the spectrum. People that aren't making the shift. People that are like, you know what this DevOps transformation it's not going to help us there, but we still need server and storage and whatnot. And then I like to call it the squishy middle. 60, 70% of the market that's like, we can't scale up in time, we can't hire the people, they're not available 'cause that 10% just got them all, but we still have the same problems. And how do we operate in a world where we have that multi-cloud type of a problem, but we can't find the people. Now you got to figure out more of the no-code, low-code packaged solutions, packaged automation coming from companies like Dell and others. >> So there's customers that are either at the beginning of their journey are not convinced yet. What are some of the barriers that they're seeing that Dell can help them overcome? >> Number one thing, education. >> Lisa: Really? >> We're hearing that consistently here at KubeCon and just customer meetings all over the place. There is a segment of the industry that they're empowered to move into a DevOps model. They don't have the ability or resources. They're not able to say, I've been doing this forever in this way in storage. How do I do that in another thing? And they're scared. They want somebody to come in and kind of handhold them a little bit, but somebody they trust. Somebody they've been working with for a very long time. That's Dell's role. Hands-on labs, training materials, how-to videos, but do it in the comfortable way that they feel like, okay we got this. >> And the success with the customers has been that well-documented. The success with the company, again, continues to survive and thrive in all conditions. So Michael Dell knows what he's doing. Love following his strategy. Michael, if you're watching, I know he watches theCUBE video, congratulations. But now the hard question for Dell is this, the applications used to run on PCs, now they're running PCs under the covers and servers. The application space here at this community is enabled by Kubernetes, is creating a new application runtime like environment. I like, compared to the old app server days when things were like just application specific, development got easier. We're in that renaissance now where the app runtime is being enabled by Kubernetes. You guys been there, done that in the old school, now the new school. What's your view on this Kubernetes? What's Dell's view on? >> Yeah, so back to Kubernetes won in my head. It's just flat out won and part of the reason, and it beat out a lot of things. You remember Cloud Foundry, which there's still a thing, but Cloud Foundry went a little too far up into the application stack and constrained the application developers a bit too much. Kubernetes success is two things. It's because they're not constraining the developer, but they're also figuring out how to enable that IT operations mindset. And they become that happy medium that's out there. So now all of a sudden, application modernization conversations and cloud-native app development, there is a standard package. There's standard load balancing and security paradigm, standard registration mechanisms, all built into the Kubernetes layer, by the way, enabled by an ecosystem. And because they're actually going through that, what's happening now is we can finally move forward. We can take that next step and we can build around that ecosystem of Kubernetes. >> That is thematically something that we've been hearing, John, for the last day and a half is the maturation of Kubernetes People, what's next? We are ready for the next step. Talk about Dell as an enabler of that. >> Yeah, so a funny, another part of that paradigm is Kubernetes does not equal virtualization. And this is a hard one in this industry right now. A lot of people say, well, yeah, we did the VMware pivot and then the KVM and everything else and they're like, this is just another one of those pivots. I'm like, no it's not. Virtualization was the pivot of physical hardware became virtual hardware, but you still thought of it in CPU memory disc and you managed it in the same way. Kubernetes, it's a such a different way of thinking about operationalization and all that abstraction that what we're realizing is people need to take baby steps into Kubernetes right now. The maturity of it is great because there is an ecosystem around it, but the majority of the industry isn't even aware of the basics of Kubernetes right now. So our job, we look at it as the education part, but also can we deliver the solutions together with the OpenShift's of the world and the Tanzu's of the world and the Rancher's of the world. Can we deliver more of that full stack experience going into the next few years? That's where we believe we can help accelerate them. Education and that delivery mechanism. >> And the community support is going to be there too. You got to have the. >> 100%. >> The community, not just education, which you guys done before, but doing it with open source vibe. >> That's where DevRel comes in. So the DevRel half of my world now is all about Dell in the community. And to be part of community isn't just to say, Hey, I'm going to go sponsor something. That's not community to me. >> It doesn't hurt. >> It doesn't hurt, but we're going to do that. We're definitely going to help with that. What our notion is you got to participate, you got to contribute, you got to be there, you got to be part of the community. That's part of my developer relations team is to become part of it. >> You got to be part of it and belong. Belonging is earning. >> Brad: Yes. >> And that's the key. And the other thing we were talking about standards and Dell has won a lot of business 'cause the PC and the servers all had standards, standard components. Standards now in the community are being driven by developer consensus. >> Brad: Yes. >> So that is an interesting new paradigm. So if you make cloud native work where all the hardware and software that's powering the builders is invisible. The developers will tell you what they want. >> 100%. >> And that's why your Kubernetes, Cloud Foundry example is so on point. It's a little bit nuanced, but what happened there is, let's explain Kubernetes was loosely de facto enabling. They didn't try to take too much territory. They didn't over push. >> Brad: Exactly. >> They were very flexible, lightweight at first, but it was enabling. >> It was organic. >> And we called it on theCUBE, I'm not going to lie, we called that early on. So props to us. >> Brad: Good job. >> Pat on the back. >> Lisa: Pat your own back. >> We get it right a lot. But now there's impact though. But the Dell I think speaks to the theme here, which just we talked is that you got startups here. We had from Envoy, we saw the donator there. He started his own company. You got Dell, which has large enterprises running massive workloads with a lot of legacy and modernization. So you got a combination of both coming together. This is going to be a collision of innovation. >> Oh I look, that's exactly right. Part of what I've been getting is not just the end users, the infrastructure developers, and whatnot around here. Startups look, come to Dell, and they're like, why are you here? Like we build this and we don't talk to you. And we're like, why not? If we come to market and start delivering more of those Kubernetes oriented solutions and the Kubernetes stack experience, that's where you guys should be working with us. You're part of the ecosystem. >> Well, your job is to say to them, look it when you want to write your software for the edge and we have market share of the most hardware at the edge, 'cause we perform better on the edge. No one wants to write software on the slower platform. >> No. >> Name me one I want to write software that's just, this is something, but people don't understand that's why you're here. >> Brad: That's exactly right. >> The game is about performance. >> Brad: Yeah. >> Cloud can do it, you can do it with a machine. So it depends where in the distributed computing chain you're at. >> You bring up one topic that actually isn't a core discussion topic around DevOps, but I am seeing more HPC and a AI/ML conversations popping up in this DevOps cloud native space. 'Cause even the market of HPC, which is a very traditional market, commodity server driven in the past, they're starting to say, how do I take advantage of Kubernetes and all of the benefits that we've been talking about. >> What are some of the things that you've heard like in your sense is the key theme or the talk track of Kubernetes, its evolution? What's on the developer's minds the last day and a half at this conference? >> Oh, okay. That's a hard question, but a good one. So the way I look at it is probably it's the robustness of the features within Kubernetes, not the native features, but even partner included features. They just want to be able to handle security in a much more, I hate to say zero trust, but secure cloud native way. There's tools in the Kubernetes ecosystem that are so integrated into Kubernetes. They don't have to think sometimes as much about how do they do it themselves. They can go find through open source or off-the-shelf startup and say, I need that and I can spin it up in about five minutes and now I'm doing that without having to spend weeks or months and having to build that. And that's security is one example. You can go through the networking discussion, you can go through so many different areas. The fact is because of community and the ecosystem, that is the winning formula for Kubernetes to enable the development. That's all I'm hearing here is they're like, give me more, give me more startups, give me more of these technologies. >> And ease of use has been a big topic here. We've been talking before we came on camera about VMware has done great since it used the virtual machine example versus Kubernetes. That is millions of developers and operators on VMware. They have about 200,000 plus just in VMUG alone. So they are going to transform their careers. They're looking for a home. They're looking for a community for the next 10 years. I mean, VMware will still be around with Broadcom, but I'm speculating that it will be much more in maintenance mode. But to get someone's career in fourth gear, fifth gear, you got to go and get that next skill set, and that's the question. Where do all these operators, IT operators go to become enterprise operators? >> Brad: That's exactly right. >> That is a big topic. What's your reaction? >> Sp I'm actually a living proof of that. I grew up in the VMware ecosystem. And for me making that pivot, it took me many years. One of the ways I did that was I actually have run in Dell, our advanced development pivotal Dojos, if you remember Pivotal. >> Yes. >> And doing the Pair Programming in Agile. It took me that mental shift to say, okay, we were doing it that way and now there's a new way to do it through code with developers and using all the new buzzwords. And that pivot is different for somebody that's just starting now, and they don't have access to a Dojo that they can go handle like a whole bunch of pair programmers. How do they make that pivot? That's 100% what we have to do. >> Okay, so my question is this, this is a hard question for you, maybe you can answer or not or maybe you can. What's different now than the attempt in the past from Dell EMC to do work or align with the developers? I think, was it five, six years ago, it was an effort. Was it timing? What's different now from then? >> So that attempt was awesome. That team was great. I was very close to that team and that was from the EMC side originally is where they have built that out. And the notion of that was that we just have to go start contributing knowledge and technology into the community and start really taking the brand and trying to expand the brand to be relevant in that community. Nothing wrong. That was actually an amazing way they did it. I think through the merger there was definitely a little bit of, okay, well, maybe this isn't one of our top priorities right now and that's probably what happened through the actual merger. >> John: It's a little bit distraction. >> It was distraction. >> Timings wasn't as good now. >> You try merging a 67 billion merger. I mean it's just really hard to do. What happened here is I think we finally got past a lot of that with the merger and now we're in steady stage/growth mode, which is a notion that now we can go and do this again in the new world, taking our lessons learned from what we did before, and try to actually go and update that in these new power apps. >> And you could point to some specific timing issues. Like at that time this community wasn't as advanced along. Kubernetes wasn't as clear. Visibility to that value proposition. Although a lot of people were speculating what happened that way. >> Exactly. >> But now with multi-cloud, I think developers starting to see the reality that it ain't going to be one cloud. >> Well, multi-cloud is not one cloud, so 100%. >> Well, I mean there's multi-cloud today, but it's really not multi-cloud by the way it could be. The people have multiple clouds. I think that gives developers comfort that existing enterprise players. Remember Microsoft wasn't really in the cloud game six, seven years ago. Look where they are now. Significant progress, nipping at the heels of AWS. So all the enterprise players are back at the table. >> Brad: Yeah, definitely. We're here. >> And that's timing issue. >> We're here. >> Talk about, you're here, you are helping customers get to the basics of Kubernetes. You talked a lot about the importance of the education. >> Brad: Yes. >> That screams to me that Dell can be a facilitator of cultural change within organizations, whether it's a bank or a hospital or a retailer or whatnot. Another thing that I'm curious about, what you guys are doing, how you've evolved, Dell is a massive partner ecosystem. How is the partner ecosystem involved in helping customers build their DevOps portfolios and really start embracing, understanding, and learning about Kubernetes? >> So that's an ever changing world right now. And that's part of why we're here at KubeCon is to help expand that. We have a very, very strong partner community. Not even just channel, but like technology partner community. And our goal is to understand with our DevOps portfolio what needs to be the next step of that partner community. Do we have to go partner up with like the, I'll use examples, the Solo.io. Do we have to partner up with all the mesh companies, the HashiCorp, which we are, We have to understand where the layers that make sense and where don't. There are some that don't make sense because they're so often to an app developer land or they're so far above even Kubernetes sometimes that maybe they don't make sense in our partner community. >> How influential are, I know we got to go soon, but how influential are your customers in helping to make some of those decisions? It's all about the customer at the end of the day. >> They're the only one that's deciding for us. They have to come to us. We have to see the need. We have to understand the discussions through our sales mechanisms, our other mechanisms. We're using that data every single day, every hour to make those decisions. >> Awesome. Brad, it's been great to have you. Sorry we took more of your time than we planned, but it was so interesting. >> No, this is awesome. >> Dell at KubeCon, you've done a great job of explaining why that absolutely resonates, the relevance, and why customers should be looking at Dell as their partner for this. Thank you so much for your time and your insights. >> Thank you guys. >> All right. For John Furrier and our guest, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE live at KubeCon + CloudNativeCon '22 from Detroit, Michigan. Stick around, our next guest will be here in just a minute. (gentle music)

>>Hey, everyone. Welcome back to San Francisco. Lisa Martin and John furrier live on the floor at VMware Explorer, 2022. This is our third day of wall to wall coverage on the cube. But you know that cuz you've been here the whole time. We're pleased to welcome up. First timer to the cubes we saw is here. The CEO and founder of ZDA. Saed welcome to the program. >>Thank you for having me >>Talk to me a little bit about what ZDA does in edge. >>Sure. So ZDA is a company purely focused in edge computing. I started a company about five years ago, go after edge. So what we do is we help customers with orchestrating their edge, helping them to deploy secure monitor application services and devices at the edge. >>What's the business model for you guys. We get that out there. So the targeting the edge, which is everything from telco to whatever. Yeah. What's the business model. Yeah. >>Maybe before we go there, let's talk about edge itself. Cuz edge is complex. There's a lot of companies. I call 'em lens company nowadays, if you're not a cloud company, you're probably an edge company at this point. So we are focusing something called the distributed edge. So distributed edge. When you start putting tiny servers in environments like factory floors, solar farms, wind farms, even inside machines or well sites, et cetera. And a question that people always ask me, like why, why would you want to put, you know, servers there on servers supposed to be in a data center in the cloud? And the answer to the question actually is data gravity. So traditionally wherever the data gets created is where your applications live. But as we're connecting more and more devices to the edge of the network, we basically customers now are required to push the applications to the edge cause they can't go all the data to the cloud. So basically that's where we focus on people call it the far edge as well. You know, that's the term we've heard in the past as well. And what we do in our business model is provide customers a, a software as a service solution where they can basically deploy and monitor these applications at these highly distributed environments. >>Data, gravity comes up a lot and I want you to take a minute to explain the definition as it is today. And people have used that term, you know, with big data, going back to 2010 leads when we covering the Hadoop wave, which ended up becoming, you know, data, data, bricks, and snowflake now, but, but a lots changed, but what does it mean to be data gravity? It means that staying local, it's just what specifically describe and, and define what data gravity is. >>Yeah. So for me, data gravity is where you need to process the data, right? It's where the data usually gets created. So if you think about a web app, where does the data get created? Where people click on buttons, they, they interface with it. They, they upload content to it, et cetera. So that's where the data gravity therefore is therefore that's where you do your analytics. That's where you do your visualization processing, machine learning and all of those pieces. So it's really where that data gets created is where the data gravity in my view says, >>What are some of the challenges that data and opportunities that data gravity presents to customers? >>Well, obviously I think every enterprise in this day is trying to take data and make it a competitive advantage, right? Like faster decisions, better decisions, outcompete your competition by, you know, being first with a product or being first with a product with the future, et cetera. So, so I think, you know, if you're not a data driven enterprise by now, then I think the future may be a little bit bleak. >>Okay. So you're targeting the market distributed edge business model, SAS technology, secret sauce. What's that piece. >>Yeah. So that's, that's what the interesting part comes in. I think, you know, if you kind of look at the data center in the cloud, we've had these virtualization and orchestration stacks create, I mean, we're here in VMware Explorer. And as an example, what we basically, what we saw is that the edge is so unique and so different than what we've seen in the data center, in the cloud that we needed to build a complete brand new purpose-built illustration and virtualization solution. So that's really what we, we set off to do. So there's two components that we do. One end is we built a purpose-built edge operating system for the edge and we actually open sourced it. And the reason we opensource it, we said, Hey, you know, edge is so diverse. You know, depending on the environment you're running in a machine or in a vehicle or in a well site, you have different hardware, different networks, different applications you need to enable. >>And we will never be able to support all of them ourselves. As a matter of fact, we actually think there's a need for standardization at the edge. We need to kind of cut through all these silos that have been created traditionally from the embedded way of thinking. So we created basically an open source project in the Linux foundation in LFS, which is a sister organization through the CNCF it's called project Eve. And the idea is to create the Android of the edge, basically what Android became for mobile computing, an a common operating system. So you build one app. You can run in any phone in the world that runs Android, build an architecture. You build one app. You can run in any Eve powered node in the world, >>So distributed edge and you get the tech here, get the secret sauce. We'll get more into that in a second, but I wanna just tie one kick quick point and get your clarification on edge is becoming much more about the physical side too. I mean, absolutely. So when you talk about Android, you're making the reference of a phone. I get that's metaphor to what you're doing at the edge, wind farms, factories, alarms, light bulbs, buildings. I mean, that's what you're talking about, right? Yes. We're getting down to that very, >>Very physical, dark distributed locations. >>We're gonna come back to the CISO CSO. We're gonna come back to the CISO versus CSO question because is the CISO or CIO or who runs that anyway? So that's true. What's the important thing that's happening because that sounds like old OT world, like yes. Operating technology, not it information technology, is it a complete reset of those worlds or is it a collision? >>It's a great question. So what we're seeing is first of all, there is already compute in these environments, industrial PCs of existed well beyond, you know, an industrial automation has been done for many, many decades. The point is that that stuff has been done. Collect data has been collected, but never connected, right? So with edge computing, we're connecting now this data from an industrial machine and industrial process to the cloud, right? And one of the problems is it's data that comes of that industrial process too much to upload to the cloud. So I gotta analyze, analyze it locally. So one of the, the things we saw early on in edge is there's a lot of brownfield. Most of our customers today actually have applications running on windows and they would love to make in Linux and containers and Kubernetes, but it took them 20, 30 years to build those apps. And they basically are the money makers of the enterprise. So they are in a, in a transitionary phase and they need something that can take them from the brown to the Greenfield. So to your point, you gotta support all of these types of unique brownfield applications. >>So you're, you're saying I don't really care if this is a customer, how you get the data, you wanna start new start fresh. That's cool. But if you wanna take your old data, you'll >>Take that. Yeah. You don't wanna rebuild the whole machine. You're >>Just, they can life cycle it out on their own timetable. Yeah. >>So we had to learn, first of all, how do we take and lift and shift windows based industrial application and make it run at the edge on, on our architecture. Right? And then the second step is how do we then Sen off that data that this application is generating and do we fuse it with cloud native capability? Like, >>So your cloud, so your staff is your open source that you're giving to the Linux foundation as part of that Eve project that's available to everybody. So they can, they can look at the code, which is great by the way. Yeah. So people wanna do that. Yeah. Your self source, I'm assuming, is your hardened version with support? >>Well, we took what we took, what the open source companies did, opensource companies traditionally have sold, you know, basically a support model around the open source. We actually saw another problem. Customers has like, okay, now I have this node running and I can, you know, do this data analytics, but what if I have 15 or 20,000 of these node? And they're all around the world in remote locations on satellite links or wireless connectivity, how do I orchestrate them? So we actually build an orchestration service for these nodes running this open source >>Software. So that's a key secret sauce right there. >>That is the business model that taking open store and a lot. >>And you're taking your own code that you have. Okay. Got it. Cool. And then the customer's customer piece is, is key. So that's the final piece, I guess who's using it. >>Yeah. Well, and, >>And, and one of the business outcomes that they're achieving. Oh >>Yeah. Well, so maybe start with that first. I mean, we are deployed in customers in all and gas, for instance, helping them with the transition to renewable energy, right? So basically we, we have customers for instance, that deploy us in the, how they drill Wells is one use case and doing that better, faster, and cheaper and, and less environmental impacting. But we also have customers that use us in wind farms. We have, and solar farms, like we, one of the leading solar energy companies in the world is using us to bring down the cost of power by predicting failures ahead of time, for >>Instance. And when you're working with customers to create the optimal solution at the distributed edge, who are you working with in, within an organization? Yeah. >>It's usually a mix of OT and it people. Okay. So the OT people typically they're >>Arm wrestling, well, or they're getting along, actually, >>I think they're getting along very well. Okay, good. But they also agree that they have to have swim lanes. The it folks, obviously their job is to make sure, you know, everything is secure. Everything is according to the compliance it's, it's, you know, the, the best TCO on the infrastructure, those type of things, the OT guy, they, they, or girl, they care about the application. They care about the services. They care about the support new business. So how can you create a model that too can coexist? And if you do that, they get along really well. >>You know, we had an event called Supercloud and@theurlsupercloud.world, if you're watching check it out, it's our version of what we think multicloud will merge into including edge cuz edge is just another node in the, in the, in the network. As far as we're concerned, hybrid is the steady state. That's distributed computing on premise, private cloud, public cloud. We know what that looks like. People love that things are happening. Edge is like a whole nother new area. That's blossoming and with disruption, yeah. There's a lot of existing market and incumbents that need to be disrupted. And there's also a new capabilities that are coming that we don't yet see. So we're seeing it with the super cloud idea that these new kinds of clouds are emerging. Like there could be an edge cloud. Yeah. Why isn't there a security cloud, whereas the financial services cloud, whereas the insurance cloud, whereas the, so these become super clouds where the CapEx could be done by the Amazon, whatnot you've been following them is edge cloud. Can you make that a cloud? Is that what you guys are trying to do? And if so, what does that look like? Cause we we're adding a new track to our super cloud site. I mentioned on edge specifically, we're trying to figure out you and if you share your opinion, it'd be great. Can the E can edge clouds exist and be run by companies? Yeah. Or is that what you guys are trying to do? >>I, I, I mean, I think first of all, there is no edge without cloud, right? So when I meet any customer who says, Hey, we're gonna do edge without cloud. Then I'm like, you're probably not gonna do edge computing. Right. And, and the way we built the company and the way we think about it, it's about extending the cloud experience all the way into these embedded distributed environments. That's really, I think what customers are looking for, cuz customers love the simplicity of the cloud. They love the ease of use agility, all of that greatness. And they're like, Hey, I want that. But not in a, you know, in an Amazon or Azure data center. I want that in my factories. I want that in my wealth sites, in my vehicles. And that's really what I think the future >>Is gonna. And how long have you guys been around? What's the, what's the history of the company because you might actually be that cloud. Yeah. And are you on AWS or Azure? You're building your own. What's the, >>Yeah. Yeah. So >>Take it through the, the architecture because yeah, yeah, sure. You're a modern startup. I mean you gotta, and the edges you're going after you gotta be geared up. Yeah. To win that. Yeah. >>So, so the company's about five years old. So we, when we started focusing on edge, people didn't necessarily talk as much about edge. We kind of identified the it's like, you know, how do you find a black hole in, in the universe? Cuz you can't see it, but you sort of look around that's why you in it. And so we were like looking at it, like there's something gonna happen here at the edge of the network, because everybody's saying we're connecting these vice upload the data to the cloud's never gonna work. My background is networking. I worked at companies like Juniper and Ericsson ran several products there. So I know how the internet networks have built. And it was very Evan to me. It's not gonna be possible. My co-founders come from open source companies like pivotal and Cloudera. My auto co-founder was a, an engineer at sun Microsystems built the first network stack in the solar is operating system. So a lot of experience that kind of came together to build this. >>Yeah. Cloudera is a big day. That's where the cube started by the way. Yeah. >>Yeah. So, so we, we, we have, I think a good view on the stack, the cloud stack and therefore a good view of what the ed stack needs to look like. And then I think, you know, to answer your other question, our orchestration service runs in the cloud. We have, we actually are multi-cloud company. So we offer customers choice where they want to orchestrate the node from the nodes themself, never sit in a data center. They always highly embedded. We have customers are putting machines or inside these factory lines, et cetera. Are >>You running your SAS on Amazon web services or which >>Cloud we're running it on several clouds, including Amazon, all of, pretty much the cloud. So some customers say, Hey, I'd prefer to be on the Amazon set. And others customers say, I wanna be on Azure set. >>And you leverage their CapEx on that side. Yes. On behalf of yeah. >>Yeah. We, yes. Yes. But the majority of the customer data and, and all the data that the nodes process, the customer send it to their clouds. They don't send it to us. We don't get a copy of the camera feed analytics or the machine data. We actually decouple those though. So basically the, the team production data go straight to the customer's cloud and that's why they love us. >>And they choose that they can control their own desktop. >>Yeah. So we separate the management plane from the data plane at the edge. Yeah. >>That's a good call >>Actually. Yeah. That was another very important part of the architecture early on. Cause customers don't want us to see their, you know, highly confidential production data and we don't wanna have it either. So >>We had a great chat with Chris Wolf who works with kit culvert about control plane, data, plane. So that seems to be the trend data, plane customers want full yeah. Management of that. Yeah. Control plane. Maybe give multiple >>Versions. Yeah. Yeah. So our cloud consumption what the data we stories about the apps, their behavior, the networking, the security, all of that. That's what we store in our cloud. And then customers can access that and monitor. But the actual machine that I go somewhere else >>Here we are at VMware. Explore. Talk a little bit about the VMware relationship. You just had some big news the other day. >>Yeah. So two days ago we actually made a big announcement with VMware. So we signed an OEM agreement with VMware. So we're part now of VMware's edge compute stack. So VMware customers, as they start using the recently announced edge compute stack 2.0, that was announced here. Basically it's powered by Edda technology. So it's a really exciting partnership as part of this, we actually building integrations with the VMware organization products. So that's basically now extending to more, you know, other groups inside VMware. >>So what's the value in it for VMware customers. >>Yeah. So I think the, the, the benefit of, of VMware customers, I think cus VMware customers want that multi-cloud multi edge orchestration experience. So they wanna be able to deploy workloads in the cloud. They wanna deploy the workloads in the data center. And of course also at the edge. So by us integrating in that vision customers now can have that unified experience from cloud to edge and anywhere in between. >>What's the big vision that you see happening at the edge. I mean, a lot of the VMware customers here, they're classic it that have evolved into ops now, dev ops. Now you've got second data ops coming. The edge is gonna right around the corner for them. They're dealing with it now, probably just kicking the tires, towing the water kind of thing. Where do you see the vision going? Cuz now, no matter what happens with VMware, the Broadcom, this wave is still here. You got AWS, got Azure, got Google cloud, you got Oracle, Alibaba internationally. And the cloud native surges here. How do you see that disrupting the existing edge? Because let's face it the O some of those OT players, a little bit old and antiquated, a little bit outdated. I mean, I was talking to a telco person. They, they puked the word open source. I mean, these people are so dogmatic on, on their architecture. Yeah. They're gonna get disrupted. It's a matter of time. Yeah. Where's the new guard come in. How do you see the configuration changing in the landscape? Because some people will cross over to the right side of the street here. Yeah. Some won't yeah. Open circle. Dominate cloud native will be key. Yeah. >>Well, I mean, I think, again, let's, let's take an example of a vertical that's heavily disrupted now as the automotive market, right? The, so look at Tesla and look at all these companies, they built, they built software first cars, right? Software, first delivery of capabilities and everything else. And the, and the incumbents. They have only two options, right? Either they try to respond by adopting open source cloud, native technologies. Like the, these new entrants have done and really, you know, compete with them at that level, or they can become commodity. Right. So, and I think that's the customers we're seeing the smart customers go like, we need to compete with these guys. We need to figure out how to take this technology in. And they need partners like us and partners like VMware for them. >>Do you see customers becoming cloud super cloud players? If they continue to keep leveraging the CapEx of the clouds and focus all their operational capital on top line revenue, generating activities. >>Yeah. I, so I think the CapEx model of the cloud is a great benefit of the cloud, but I think that is not, what's the longer term future of the cloud. I think the op the cloud operating model is the future. Like the agility, the ability imagine embedded software that, you know, you do an over the year update to fix a bug, but it's very hard to make a, an embedded device smarter over time. And then imagine if you can run cloud native software, you can roll out every two weeks new features and make that thing smarter, intelligent, and continue to help you in your business. That I think is what cloud did ultimately. And I think that is what really these customers are gonna need at their edge. >>Well, we talked about the value within it for customers with the VMware partnership, but what are some of your expectations? Obviously, this is a pretty powerful partnership for you guys. Yeah. What are some of the things that you're expecting that this is gonna drive? Yeah, >>So we, we, we have always operated at the more OT layer, distributed organizations in retail, energy, industrial automotive. Those are the verticals we, so we've developed. I think a lot of experience there, what, what we're seeing as we talk to those customers is they obviously have it organizations and the it organizations, Hey, that's great. You're looking at its computing, but how do we tie this into the existing investments we made with VMware? And how do we kind of take that also to this new environment? And I think that's the expectation I have is that I think we will be able to, to talk to the it folks and say, Hey, you can actually talk to the OT person. And both of you will speak the same language. You probably will both standardize on the same architecture and you'll be together deploying and enabling this new agility at the edge. >>What are some of the next things coming up for ZDA and the team? >>Well, so we've had a really amazing few quarters. We just close a series B round. So we've raised the companies raised over 55 million so far, we're growing very rapidly. We opened up no new international offices. I would say the, the early customers that we started deploying, wait a while back, they're now going into mass scale deployment. So we have now deployments underway in, you know, the 10 to hundred thousands of nodes at certain customers and in amazing environments. And so, so for us, it's continuing to prove the product in more and more verticals. Our, our product is really built for the largest of the largest. So, you know, for the size of the company, we are, we have a high concentration of fortune 500 global 500 customers, and some of them even invested in our rounds recently. So we we've been really, you know, honored with that support. Well, congratulations. Good stuff, edges popping. All right. Thank you. >>Thank you so much for joining us, talking about what you're doing in distributed edge. What's in it for customers, the VMware partnership, and by the way, congratulations on >>That too. Thank you. Thank you so much. Nice to meet you. Thank >>You. All right. Nice to meet you as well for our guest and John furrier. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube live from VMware Explorer, 22, John and I will be right back with our next guest.