(bright music) >> Hello everyone. Welcome to theCUBE's coverage of AWS re:Invent 22. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. Got some great coverage here talking about software supply chain and sustainability in the cloud. We've got a great conversation. Gunnar Hellekson, vice president and general manager at Red Hat Enterprise Linux and Business Unit of Red Hat. Thanks for coming on. And Adnan Ijaz, director of product management of commercial software services, AWS. Gentlemen, thanks for joining me today. >> It's a pleasure. (Adnan speaks indistinctly) >> You know, the hottest topic coming out of Cloud Native developer communities is slide chain software sustainability. This is a huge issue. As open source continues to power away and fund and grow this next generation modern development environment, you know, supply chain, you know, sustainability is a huge discussion because you got to check things out, what's in the code. Okay, open source is great, but now we got to commercialize it. This is the topic, Gunnar, let's get in with you. What are you seeing here and what's some of the things that you're seeing around the sustainability piece of it? Because, you know, containers, Kubernetes, we're seeing that that run time really dominate this new abstraction layer, cloud scale. What's your thoughts? >> Yeah, so I, it's interesting that the, you know, so Red Hat's been doing this for 20 years, right? Making open source safe to consume in the enterprise. And there was a time when in order to do that you needed to have a long term life cycle and you needed to be very good at remediating security vulnerabilities. And that was kind of, that was the bar that you had to climb over. Nowadays with the number of vulnerabilities coming through, what people are most worried about is, kind of, the providence of the software and making sure that it has been vetted and it's been safe, and that things that you get from your vendor should be more secure than things that you've just downloaded off of GitHub, for example. Right? And that's a place where Red Hat's very comfortable living, right? Because we've been doing it for 20 years. I think there's another aspect to this supply chain question as well, especially with the pandemic. You know, we've got these supply chains have been jammed up. The actual physical supply chains have been jammed up. And the two of these issues actually come together, right? Because as we go through the pandemic, we've got these digital transformation efforts, which are in large part, people creating software in order to manage better their physical supply chain problems. And so as part of that digital transformation, you have another supply chain problem, which is the software supply chain problem, right? And so these two things kind of merge on these as people are trying to improve the performance of transportation systems, logistics, et cetera. Ultimately, it all boils down to, both supply chain problems actually boil down to a software problem. It's very interesting. >> Well, that is interesting. I want to just follow up on that real quick if you don't mind. Because if you think about the convergence of the software and physical world, you know, that's, you know, IOT and also hybridcloud kind of plays into that at scale, this opens up more surface area for attacks, especially when you're under a lot of pressure. This is where, you know, you have a service area on the physical side and you have constraints there. And obviously the pandemic causes problems. But now you've got the software side. How are you guys handling that? Can you just share a little bit more of how you guys looking at that with Red Hat? What's the customer challenge? Obviously, you know, skills gaps is one, but, like, that's a convergence at the same time more security problems. >> Yeah, yeah, that's right. And certainly the volume of, if we just look at security vulnerabilities themselves, just the volume of security vulnerabilities has gone up considerably as more people begin using the software. And as the software becomes more important to, kind of, critical infrastructure. More eyeballs around it and so we're uncovering more problems, which is kind of, that's okay, that's how the world works. And so certainly the number of remediations required every year has gone up. But also the customer expectations, as I mentioned before, the customer expectations have changed, right? People want to be able to show to their auditors and to their regulators that no, in fact, I can show the providence of the software that I'm using. I didn't just download something random off the internet. I actually have like, you know, adults paying attention to how the software gets put together. And it's still, honestly, it's still very early days. I think as an industry, I think we're very good at managing, identifying remediating vulnerabilities in the aggregate. We're pretty good at that. I think things are less clear when we talk about, kind of, the management of that supply chain, proving the providence, and creating a resilient supply chain for software. We have lots of tools, but we don't really have lots of shared expectations. And so it's going to be interesting over the next few years, I think we're going to have more rules are going to come out. I see NIST has already published some of them. And as these new rules come out, the whole industry is going to have to kind of pull together and really rally around some of this shared understanding so we can all have shared expectations and we can all speak the same language when we're talking about this problem. >> That's awesome. Adnan, Amazon web service is obviously the largest cloud platform out there. You know, the pandemic, even post pandemic, some of these supply chain issues, whether it's physical or software, you're also an outlet for that. So if someone can't buy hardware or something physical, they can always get to the cloud. You guys have great network compute and whatnot and you got thousands of ISVs across the globe. How are you helping customers with this supply chain problem? Because whether it's, you know, I need to get in my networking gears and delay, I'm going to go to the cloud and get help there. Or whether it's knowing the workloads and what's going on inside them with respect to open source. 'Cause you've got open source, which is kind of an external forcing function. You've got AWS and you got, you know, physical compute stores, networking, et cetera. How are you guys helping customers with the supply chain challenge, which could be an opportunity? >> Yeah, thanks John. I think there are multiple layers to that. At the most basic level, we are helping customers by abstracting away all these data center constructs that they would have to worry about if they were running their own data centers. They would have to figure out how the networking gear, you talk about, you know, having the right compute, right physical hardware. So by moving to the cloud, at least they're delegating that problem to AWS and letting us manage and making sure that we have an instance available for them whenever they want it. And if they want to scale it, the capacity is there for them to use. Now then, so we kind of give them space to work on the second part of the problem, which is building their own supply chain solutions. And we work with all kinds of customers here at AWS from all different industry segments, automotive, retail, manufacturing. And you know, you see the complexity of the supply chain with all those moving pieces, like hundreds and thousands of moving pieces, it's very daunting. And then on the other hand, customers need more better services. So you need to move fast. So you need to build your agility in the supply chain itself. And that is where, you know, Red Hat and AWS come together. Where we can enable customers to build their supply chain solutions on platforms like Red Hat Enterprise Linux RHEL or Red Hat OpenShift on AWS, we call it ROSA. And the benefit there is that you can actually use the services that are relevant for the supply chain solutions like Amazon managed blockchain, you know, SageMaker. So you can actually build predictive analytics, you can improve forecasting, you can make sure that you have solutions that help you identify where you can cut costs. And so those are some of the ways we're helping customers, you know, figure out how they actually want to deal with the supply chain challenges that we're running into in today's world. >> Yeah, and you know, you mentioned sustainability outside of software sustainability, you know, as people move to the cloud, we've reported on SiliconANGLE here in theCUBE, that it's better to have the sustainability with the cloud because then the data centers aren't using all that energy too. So there's also all kinds of sustainability advantages. Gunnar, because this is kind of how your relationship with Amazon's expanded. You mentioned ROSA, which is Red Hat, you know, on OpenShift, on AWS. This is interesting because one of the biggest discussions is skills gap, but we were also talking about the fact that the humans are a huge part of the talent value. In other words, the humans still need to be involved. And having that relationship with managed services and Red Hat, this piece becomes one of those things that's not talked about much, which is the talent is increasing in value, the humans, and now you got managed services on the cloud. So we'll look at scale and human interaction. Can you share, you know, how you guys are working together on this piece? 'Cause this is interesting, 'cause this kind of brings up the relationship of that operator or developer. >> Yeah, yeah. So I think there's, so I think about this in a few dimensions. First is that it's difficult to find a customer who is not talking about automation at some level right now. And obviously you can automate the processes and the physical infrastructure that you already have, that's using tools like Ansible, right? But I think that combining it with the elasticity of a solution like AWS, so you combine the automation with kind of elastic and converting a lot of the capital expenses into operating expenses, that's a great way actually to save labor, right? So instead of like racking hard drives, you can have somebody do something a little more like, you know, more valuable work, right? And so, okay, but that gives you a platform. And then what do you do with that platform? You know, if you've got your systems automated and you've got this kind of elastic infrastructure underneath you, what you do on top of it is really interesting. So a great example of this is the collaboration that we had with running the RHEL workstation on AWS. So you might think, like, well why would anybody want to run a workstation on a cloud? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Unless you consider how complex it is to set up, if you have, the use case here is like industrial workstations, right? So it's animators, people doing computational fluid dynamics, things like this. So these are industries that are extremely data heavy. Workstations have very large hardware requirements, often with accelerated GPUs and things like this. That is an extremely expensive thing to install on-premise anywhere. And if the pandemic taught us anything, it's if you have a bunch of very expensive talent and they all have to work from home, it is very difficult to go provide them with, you know, several tens of thousands of dollars worth of workstation equipment. And so combine the RHEL workstation with the AWS infrastructure and now all that workstation computational infrastructure is available on demand and available right next to the considerable amount of data that they're analyzing or animating or working on. So it's a really interesting, it was actually, this is an idea that was actually born with the pandemic. >> Yeah. >> And it's kind of a combination of everything that we're talking about, right? It's the supply chain challenges of the customer, it's the lack of talent, making sure that people are being put to their best and highest use. And it's also having this kind of elastic, I think, OpEx heavy infrastructure as opposed to a CapEx heavy infrastructure. >> That's a great example. I think that illustrates to me what I love about cloud right now is that you can put stuff in the cloud and then flex what you need, when you need it, in the cloud rather than either ingress or egress of data. You just get more versatility around the workload needs, whether it's more compute or more storage or other high level services. This is kind of where this next gen cloud is going. This is where customers want to go once their workloads are up and running. How do you simplify all this and how do you guys look at this from a joint customer perspective? Because that example I think will be something that all companies will be working on, which is put it in the cloud and flex to whatever the workload needs and put it closer to the compute. I want to put it there. If I want to leverage more storage and networking, well, I'll do that too. It's not one thing, it's got to flex around. How are you guys simplifying this? >> Yeah, I think, so, I'll give my point of view and then I'm very curious to hear what Adnan has to say about it. But I think about it in a few dimensions, right? So there is a technically, like, any solution that Adnan's team and my team want to put together needs to be kind of technically coherent, right? Things need to work well together. But that's not even most of the job. Most of the job is actually ensuring an operational consistency and operational simplicity, so that everything is, the day-to-day operations of these things kind of work well together. And then also, all the way to things like support and even acquisition, right? Making sure that all the contracts work together, right? It's a really... So when Adnan and I think about places of working together, it's very rare that we're just looking at a technical collaboration. It's actually a holistic collaboration across support, acquisition, as well as all the engineering that we have to do. >> Adnan, your view on how you're simplifying it with Red Hat for your joint customers making collaborations? >> Yeah, Gunnar covered it well. I think the benefit here is that Red Hat has been the leading Linux distribution provider. So they have a lot of experience. AWS has been the leading cloud provider. So we have both our own points of view, our own learning from our respective set of customers. So the way we try to simplify and bring these things together is working closely. In fact, I sometimes joke internally that if you see Gunnar and my team talking to each other on a call, you cannot really tell who belongs to which team. Because we're always figuring out, okay, how do we simplify discount experience? How do we simplify programs? How do we simplify go to market? How do we simplify the product pieces? So it's really bringing our learning and share our perspective to the table and then really figure out how do we actually help customers make progress. ROSA that we talked about is a great example of that, you know, together we figured out, hey, there is a need for customers to have this capability in AWS and we went out and built it. So those are just some of the examples in how both teams are working together to simplify the experience, make it complete, make it more coherent. >> Great, that's awesome. Next question is really around how you help organizations with the sustainability piece, how to support them simplifying it. But first, before we get into that, what is the core problem around this sustainability discussion we're talking about here, supply chain sustainability, what is the core challenge? Can you both share your thoughts on what that problem is and what the solution looks like and then we can get into advice? >> Yeah. Well from my point of view, it's, I think, you know, one of the lessons of the last three years is every organization is kind of taking a careful look at how resilient it is, or I should say, every organization learned exactly how resilient it was, right? And that comes from both the physical challenges and the logistics challenges that everyone had, the talent challenges you mentioned earlier. And of course the software challenges, you know, as everyone kind of embarks on this digital transformation journey that we've all been talking about. And I think, so I really frame it as resilience, right? And resilience at bottom is really about ensuring that you have options and that you have choices. The more choices you have, the more options you have, the more resilient you and your organization is going to be. And so I know that's how I approach the market. I'm pretty sure that's how Adnan is approaching the market, is ensuring that we are providing as many options as possible to customers so that they can assemble the right pieces to create a solution that works for their particular set of challenges or their unique set of challenges and unique context. Adnan, does that sound about right to you? >> Yeah, I think you covered it well. I can speak to another aspect of sustainability, which is becoming increasingly top of mind for our customers. Like, how do they build products and services and solutions and whether it's supply chain or anything else which is sustainable, which is for the long term good of the planet. And I think that is where we have also been very intentional and focused in how we design our data center, how we actually build our cooling system so that those are energy efficient. You know, we are on track to power all our operations with renewable energy by 2025, which is five years ahead of our initial commitment. And perhaps the most obvious example of all of this is our work with ARM processors, Graviton3, where, you know, we are building our own chip to make sure that we are designing energy efficiency into the process. And you know, the ARM Graviton3 processor chips, they are about 60% more energy efficient compared to some of the CD6 comparable. So all those things that also we are working on in making sure that whatever our customers build on our platform is long term sustainable. So that's another dimension of how we are working that into our platform. >> That's awesome. This is a great conversation. You know, the supply chain is on both sides, physical and software. You're starting to see them come together in great conversations. And certainly moving workloads to the cloud and running them more efficiently will help on the sustainability side, in my opinion. Of course, you guys talked about that and we've covered it. But now you start getting into how to refactor, and this is a big conversation we've been having lately is as you not just lift and shift, but replatform it and refactor, customers are seeing great advantages on this. So I have to ask you guys, how are you helping customers and organizations support sustainability and simplify the complex environment that has a lot of potential integrations? Obviously API's help of course, but that's the kind of baseline. What's the advice that you give customers? 'Cause you know, it can look complex and it becomes complex, but there's an answer here. What's your thoughts? >> Yeah, I think, so whenever I get questions like this from customers, the first thing I guide them to is, we talked earlier about this notion of consistency and how important that is. One way to solve the problem is to create an entirely new operational model, an entirely new acquisition model, and an entirely new stack of technologies in order to be more sustainable. That is probably not in the cards for most folks. What they want to do is have their existing estate and they're trying to introduce sustainability into the work that they are already doing. They don't need to build another silo in order to create sustainability, right? And so there has to be some common threads, there has to be some common platforms across the existing estate and your more sustainable estate, right? And so things like Red Hat Enterprise Linux, which can provide this kind of common, not just a technical substrate, but a common operational substrate on which you can build these solutions. If you have a common platform on which you are building solutions, whether it's RHEL or whether it's OpenShift or any of our other platforms, that creates options for you underneath. So that in some cases maybe you need to run things on-premises, some things you need to run in the cloud, but you don't have to profoundly change how you work when you're moving from one place to another. >> Adnan, what's your thoughts on the simplification? >> Yeah, I mean, when you talk about replatforming and refactoring, it is a daunting undertaking, you know, especially in today's fast paced world. But the good news is you don't have to do it by yourself. Customers don't have to do it on their own. You know, together AWS and Red Hat, we have our rich partner ecosystem, you know, AWS has over 100,000 partners that can help you take that journey, the transformation journey. And within AWS and working with our partners like Red Hat, we make sure that we have- In my mind, there are really three big pillars that you have to have to make sure that customers can successfully re-platform, refactor their applications to the modern cloud architecture. You need to have the rich set of services and tools that meet their different scenarios, different use cases. Because no one size fits all. You have to have the right programs because sometimes customers need those incentives, they need those, you know, that help in the first step. And last but not least, they need training. So all of that, we try to cover that as we work with our customers, work with our partners. And that is where, you know, together we try to help customers take that step, which is a challenging step to take. >> Yeah, you know, it's great to talk to you guys, both leaders in your field. Obviously Red Hats, I remember the days back when I was provisioning and loading OSs on hardware with CDs, if you remember those days, Gunnar. But now with the high level services, if you look at this year's reinvent, and this is kind of my final question for the segment is, that we'll get your reaction to, last year we talked about higher level service. I sat down with Adam Saleski, we talked about that. If you look at what's happened this year, you're starting to see people talk about their environment as their cloud. So Amazon has the gift of the CapEx, all that investment and people can operate on top of it. They're calling that environment their cloud. Okay? For the first time we're seeing this new dynamic where it's like they have a cloud, but Amazon's the CapEx, they're operating. So, you're starting to see the operational visibility, Gunnar, around how to operate this environment. And it's not hybrid, this, that, it's just, it's cloud. This is kind of an inflection point. Do you guys agree with that or have a reaction to that statement? Because I think this is, kind of, the next gen supercloud-like capability. We're going, we're building the cloud. It's now an environment. It's not talking about private cloud, this cloud, it's all cloud. What's your reaction? >> Yeah, I think, well, I think it's very natural. I mean, we use words like hybridcloud, multicloud, I guess supercloud is what the kids are saying now, right? It's all describing the same phenomena, right? Which is being able to take advantage of lots of different infrastructure options, but still having something that creates some commonality among them so that you can manage them effectively, right? So that you can have, kind of, uniform compliance across your estate. So that you can have, kind of, you can make the best use of your talent across the estate. I mean this is, it's a very natural thing. >> John: They're calling it cloud, the estate is the cloud. >> Yeah. So yeah, so fine, if it means that we no longer have to argue about what's multicloud and what's hybridcloud, I think that's great. Let's just call it cloud. >> Adnan, what's your reaction, 'cause this is kind of the next gen benefits of higher level services combined with amazing, you know, compute and resource at the infrastructure level. What's your view on that? >> Yeah, I think the construct of a unified environment makes sense for customers who have all these use cases which require, like for instance, if you are doing some edge computing and you're running WS outpost or you know, wavelength and these things. So, and it is fair for customer to think that, hey, this is one environment, same set of tooling that they want to build that works across all their different environments. That is why we work with partners like Red Hat so that customers who are running Red Hat Enterprise Linux on-premises and who are running in AWS get the same level of support, get the same level of security features, all of that. So from that sense, it actually makes sense for us to build these capabilities in a way that customers don't have to worry about, okay, now I'm actually in the AWS data center versus I'm running outpost on-premises. It is all one. They just use the same set of CLI, command line APIs and all of that. So in that sense it actually helps customers have that unification so that consistency of experience helps their workforce and be more productive versus figuring out, okay, what do I do, which tool I use where? >> Adnan, you just nailed it. This is about supply chain sustainability, moving the workloads into a cloud environment. You mentioned wavelength, this conversation's going to continue. We haven't even talked about the edge yet. This is something that's going to be all about operating these workloads at scale and all with the cloud services. So thanks for sharing that and we'll pick up that edge piece later. But for re:Invent right now, this is really the key conversation. How to make the sustained supply chain work in a complex environment, making it simpler. And so thanks you for sharing your insights here on theCUBE. >> Thanks, thanks for having us. >> Okay, this is theCUBE's coverage of AWS re:Invent 22. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (bright music)

>>Hello everyone. Welcome to the Cube's coverage of AWS Reinvent 22. I'm John Ferer, host of the Cube. Got some great coverage here talking about software supply chain and sustainability in the cloud. We've got a great conversation. Gunner Helickson, Vice President and general manager at Red Hat Enterprise Linux and Business Unit of Red Hat. Thanks for coming on. And Edon Eja Director, Product Management of commercial software services aws. Gentlemen, thanks for joining me today. >>Oh, it's a pleasure. >>You know, the hottest topic coming out of Cloudnative developer communities is slide chain software sustainability. This is a huge issue. As open source continues to power away and fund and grow this next generation modern development environment, you know, supply chain, you know, sustainability is a huge discussion because you gotta check things out where, what's in the code. Okay, open source is great, but now we gotta commercialize it. This is the topic, Gunner, let's get in, get with you. What, what are you seeing here and what's some of the things that you're seeing around the sustainability piece of it? Because, you know, containers, Kubernetes, we're seeing that that run time really dominate this new abstraction layer, cloud scale. What's your thoughts? >>Yeah, so I, it's interesting that the, you know, so Red Hat's been doing this for 20 years, right? Making open source safe to consume in the enterprise. And there was a time when in order to do that you needed to have a, a long term life cycle and you needed to be very good at remediating security vulnerabilities. And that was kind of, that was the bar that you had that you had to climb over. Nowadays with the number of vulnerabilities coming through, what people are most worried about is, is kind of the providence of the software and making sure that it has been vetted and it's been safe, and that that things that you get from your vendor should be more secure than things that you've just downloaded off of GitHub, for example. Right? And that's, that's a, that's a place where Red Hat's very comfortable living, right? >>Because we've been doing it for, for 20 years. I think there, there's another, there's another aspect to this, to this supply chain question as well, especially with the pandemic. You know, we've got these, these supply chains have been jammed up. The actual physical supply chains have been jammed up. And, and the two of these issues actually come together, right? Because as we've been go, as we go through the pandemic, we've had these digital transformation efforts, which are in large part people creating software in order to manage better their physical supply chain problems. And so as part of that digital transformation, you have another supply chain problem, which is the software supply chain problem, right? And so these two things kind of merge on these as people are trying to improve the performance of transportation systems, logistics, et cetera. Ultimately it all boils down to it all. Both supply chain problems actually boil down to a software problem. It's very >>Interesting that, Well, that is interesting. I wanna just follow up on that real quick if you don't mind. Because if you think about the convergence of the software and physical world, you know, that's, you know, IOT and also hybrid cloud kind of plays into that at scale, this opens up more surface area for attacks, especially when you're under a lot of pressure. This is where, you know, you can, you have a service area in the physical side and you have constraints there. And obviously the pandemic causes problems, but now you've got the software side. Can you, how are you guys handling that? Can you just share a little bit more of how you guys are looking at that with Red Hat? What's, what's the customer challenge? Obviously, you know, skills gaps is one, but like that's a convergence at the same time. More security problems. >>Yeah, yeah, that's right. And certainly the volume of, if we just look at security vulnerabilities themselves, just the volume of security vulnerabilities has gone up considerably as more people begin using the software. And as the software becomes more important to kind of critical infrastructure, more eyeballs are on it. And so we're uncovering more problems, which is kind of, that's, that's okay. That's how the world works. And so certainly the, the number of remediations required every year has gone up. But also the customer expectations, as I've mentioned before, the customer expectations have changed, right? People want to be able to show to their auditors and to their regulators that no, we, we, in fact, I can show the providence of the software that I'm using. I didn't just download something random off the internet. I actually have, like you, you know, adults paying attention to the, how the software gets put together. >>And it's still, honestly, it's still very early days. We can, I think the, in as an industry, I think we're very good at managing, identifying remediating vulnerabilities in the aggregate. We're pretty good at that. I think things are less clear when we talk about kind of the management of that supply chain, proving the provenance, proving the, and creating a resilient supply chain for software. We have lots of tools, but we don't really have lots of shared expectations. Yeah. And so it's gonna be interesting over the next few years, I think we're gonna have more rules are gonna come out. I see NIST has already, has already published some of them. And as these new rules come out, the whole industry is gonna have to kind of pull together and, and really and really rally around some of this shared understanding so we can all have shared expectations and we can all speak the same language when we're talking about this >>Problem. That's awesome. A and Amazon web service is obviously the largest cloud platform out there, you know, the pandemic, even post pandemic, some of these supply chain issues, whether it's physical or software, you're also an outlet for that. So if someone can't buy hardware or, or something physical, they can always get the cloud. You guys have great network compute and whatnot and you got thousands of ISVs across the globe. How are you helping customers with this supply chain problem? Because whether it's, you know, I need to get in my networking gears delayed, I'm gonna go to the cloud and get help there. Or whether it's knowing the workloads and, and what's going on inside them with respect open source. Cause you've got open source, which is kind of an external forcing function. You got AWS and you got, you know, physical compute stores, networking, et cetera. How are you guys helping customers with the supply chain challenge, which could be an opportunity? >>Yeah, thanks John. I think there, there are multiple layers to that. At, at the most basic level we are helping customers buy abstracting away all these data central constructs that they would have to worry about if they were running their own data centers. They would have to figure out how the networking gear, you talk about, you know, having the right compute, right physical hardware. So by moving to the cloud, at least they're delegating that problem to AWS and letting us manage and making sure that we have an instance available for them whenever they want it. And if they wanna scale it, the, the, the capacity is there for them to use now then that, so we kind of give them space to work on the second part of the problem, which is building their own supply chain solutions. And we work with all kinds of customers here at AWS from all different industry segments, automotive, retail, manufacturing. >>And you know, you see that the complexity of the supply chain with all those moving pieces, like hundreds and thousands of moving pieces, it's very daunting. So cus and then on the other hand, customers need more better services. So you need to move fast. So you need to build, build your agility in the supply chain itself. And that is where, you know, Red Hat and AWS come together where we can build, we can enable customers to build their supply chain solutions on platform like Red Hat Enterprise, Linux Rail or Red Hat OpenShift on, on aws. We call it Rosa. And the benefit there is that you can actually use the services that we, that are relevant for the supply chain solutions like Amazon managed blockchain, you know, SageMaker. So you can actually build predictive and s you can improve forecasting, you can make sure that you have solutions that help you identify where you can cut costs. And so those are some of the ways we are helping customers, you know, figure out how they actually wanna deal with the supply chain challenges that we're running into in today's world. >>Yeah, and you know, you mentioned sustainability outside of software su sustainability, you know, as people move to the cloud, we've reported on silicon angle here in the cube that it's better to have the sustainability with the cloud because then the data centers aren't using all that energy too. So there's also all kinds of sustainability advantages, Gunner, because this is, this is kind of how your relationship with Amazon's expanded. You mentioned Rosa, which is Red Hat on, you know, on OpenShift, on aws. This is interesting because one of the biggest discussions is skills gap, but we were also talking about the fact that the humans are huge part of the talent value. In other words, the, the humans still need to be involved and having that relationship with managed services and Red Hat, this piece becomes one of those things that's not talked about much, which is the talent is increasing in value the humans, and now you got managed services on the cloud, has got scale and human interactions. Can you share, you know, how you guys are working together on this piece? Cuz this is interesting cuz this kind of brings up the relationship of that operator or developer. >>Yeah, Yeah. So I think there's, so I think about this in a few dimensions. First is that the kind of the, I it's difficult to find a customer who is not talking about automation at some level right now. And obviously you can automate the processes and, and the physical infrastructure that you already have that's using tools like Ansible, right? But I think that the, combining it with the, the elasticity of a solution like aws, so you combine the automation with kind of elastic and, and converting a lot of the capital expenses into operating expenses, that's a great way actually to save labor, right? So instead of like racking hard drives, you can have somebody who's somebody do something a little more like, you know, more valuable work, right? And so, so okay, but that gives you a platform and then what do you do with that platform? >>And if you've got your systems automated and you've got this kind of elastic infrastructure underneath you, what you do on top of it is really interesting. So a great example of this is the collaboration that, that we had with running the rel workstation on aws. So you might think like, well why would anybody wanna run a workstation on, on a cloud? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense unless you consider how complex it is to set up, if you have the, the use case here is like industrial workstations, right? So it's animators, people doing computational fluid dynamics, things like this. So these are industries that are extremely data heavy. They have workstations have very large hardware requirements, often with accelerated GPUs and things like this. That is an extremely expensive thing to install on premise anywhere. And if the pandemic taught us anything, it's, if you have a bunch of very expensive talent and they all have to work from a home, it is very difficult to go provide them with, you know, several tens of thousands of dollars worth of worth of worth of workstation equipment. >>And so combine the rail workstation with the AWS infrastructure and now all that workstation computational infrastructure is available on demand and on and available right next to the considerable amount of data that they're analyzing or animating or, or, or working on. So it's a really interesting, it's, it was actually, this is an idea that I was actually born with the pandemic. Yeah. And, and it's kind of a combination of everything that we're talking about, right? It's the supply chain challenges of the customer, It's the lack of lack of talent, making sure that people are being put their best and highest use. And it's also having this kind of elastic, I think, opex heavy infrastructure as opposed to a CapEx heavy infrastructure. >>That's a great example. I think that's illustrates to me what I love about cloud right now is that you can put stuff in, in the cloud and then flex what you need when you need it at in the cloud rather than either ingress or egress data. You, you just more, you get more versatility around the workload needs, whether it's more compute or more storage or other high level services. This is kind of where this NextGen cloud is going. This is where, where, where customers want to go once their workloads are up and running. How do you simplify all this and how do you guys look at this from a joint customer perspective? Because that example I think will be something that all companies will be working on, which is put it in the cloud and flex to the, whatever the workload needs and put it closer to the work compute. I wanna put it there. If I wanna leverage more storage and networking, Well, I'll do that too. It's not one thing. It's gotta flex around what's, how are you guys simplifying this? >>Yeah, I think so for, I'll, I'll just give my point of view and then I'm, I'm very curious to hear what a not has to say about it, but the, I think and think about it in a few dimensions, right? So there's, there is a, technically like any solution that aan a nun's team and my team wanna put together needs to be kind of technically coherent, right? The things need to work well together, but that's not the, that's not even most of the job. Most of the job is actually the ensuring and operational consistency and operational simplicity so that everything is the day-to-day operations of these things kind of work well together. And then also all the way to things like support and even acquisition, right? Making sure that all the contracts work together, right? It's a really in what, So when Aon and I think about places of working together, it's very rare that we're just looking at a technical collaboration. It's actually a holistic collaboration across support acquisition as well as all the engineering that we have to do. >>And on your, your view on how you're simplifying it with Red Hat for your joint customers making Collabo >>Yeah. Gun, Yeah. Gunner covered it. Well I think the, the benefit here is that Red Hat has been the leading Linux distribution provider. So they have a lot of experience. AWS has been the leading cloud provider. So we have both our own point of views, our own learning from our respective set of customers. So the way we try to simplify and bring these things together is working closely. In fact, I sometimes joke internally that if you see Ghana and my team talking to each other on a call, you cannot really tell who who belongs to which team. Because we're always figuring out, okay, how do we simplify discount experience? How do we simplify programs? How do we simplify go to market? How do we simplify the product pieces? So it's really bringing our, our learning and share our perspective to the table and then really figure out how do we actually help customers make progress. Rosa that we talked about is a great example of that, you know, you know, we, together we figured out, hey, there is a need for customers to have this capability in AWS and we went out and built it. So those are just some of the examples in how both teams are working together to simplify the experience, make it complete, make it more coherent. >>Great. That's awesome. That next question is really around how you help organizations with the sustainability piece, how to support them, simplifying it. But first, before we get into that, what is the core problem around this sustainability discussion we're talking about here, supply chain sustainability, What is the core challenge? Can you both share your thoughts on what that problem is and what the solution looks like and then we can get into advice? >>Yeah. Well from my point of view, it's, I think, you know, one of the lessons of the last three years is every organization is kind of taking a careful look at how resilient it is. Or ever I should say, every organization learned exactly how resilient it was, right? And that comes from both the, the physical challenges and the logistics challenges that everyone had. The talent challenges you mentioned earlier. And of course the, the software challenges, you know, as everyone kind of embarks on this, this digital transformation journey that, that we've all been talking about. And I think, so I really frame it as, as resilience, right? And and resilience is at bottom is really about ensuring that you have options and that you have choices. The more choices you have, the more options you have, the more resilient you, you and your organization is going to be. And so I know that that's how, that's how I approach the market. I'm pretty sure that's exact, that's how AON is, has approaching the market, is ensuring that we are providing as many options as possible to customers so that they can assemble the right, assemble the right pieces to create a, a solution that works for their particular set of challenges or their unique set of challenges and and unique context. Aon, is that, does that sound about right to you? Yeah, >>I think you covered it well. I, I can speak to another aspect of sustainability, which is becoming increasingly top of mind for our customer is like how do they build products and services and solutions and whether it's supply chain or anything else which is sustainable, which is for the long term good of the, the planet. And I think that is where we have been also being very intentional and focused in how we design our data center. How we actually build our cooling system so that we, those are energy efficient. You know, we, we are on track to power all our operations with renewable energy by 2025, which is five years ahead of our initial commitment. And perhaps the most obvious example of all of this is our work with arm processors Graviton three, where, you know, we are building our own chip to make sure that we are designing energy efficiency into the process. And you know, we, there's the arm graviton, three arm processor chips, there are about 60% more energy efficient compared to some of the CD six comparable. So all those things that are also we are working on in making sure that whatever our customers build on our platform is long term sustainable. So that's another dimension of how we are working that into our >>Platform. That's awesome. This is a great conversation. You know, the supply chain is on both sides, physical and software. You're starting to see them come together in great conversations and certainly moving workloads to the cloud running in more efficiently will help on the sustainability side, in my opinion. Of course, you guys talked about that and we've covered it, but now you start getting into how to refactor, and this is a big conversation we've been having lately, is as you not just lift and ship but re-platform and refactor, customers are seeing great advantages on this. So I have to ask you guys, how are you helping customers and organizations support sustainability and, and simplify the complex environment that has a lot of potential integrations? Obviously API's help of course, but that's the kind of baseline, what's the, what's the advice that you give customers? Cause you know, it can look complex and it becomes complex, but there's an answer here. What's your thoughts? >>Yeah, I think so. Whenever, when, when I get questions like this from from customers, the, the first thing I guide them to is, we talked earlier about this notion of consistency and how important that is. It's one thing, it it, it is one way to solve the problem is to create an entirely new operational model, an entirely new acquisition model and an entirely new stack of technologies in order to be more sustainable. That is probably not in the cards for most folks. What they want to do is have their existing estate and they're trying to introduce sustainability into the work that they are already doing. They don't need to build another silo in order to create sustainability, right? And so there have to be, there has to be some common threads, there has to be some common platforms across the existing estate and your more sustainable estate, right? >>And, and so things like Red Hat enterprise Linux, which can provide this kind of common, not just a technical substrate, but a common operational substrate on which you can build these solutions if you have a common platform on which you are building solutions, whether it's RHEL or whether it's OpenShift or any of our other platforms that creates options for you underneath. So that in some cases maybe you need to run things on premise, some things you need to run in the cloud, but you don't have to profoundly change how you work when you're moving from one place to another. >>And that, what's your thoughts on, on the simplification? >>Yeah, I mean think that when you talk about replatforming and refactoring, it is a daunting undertaking, you know, in today's, in the, especially in today's fast paced work. So, but the good news is you don't have to do it by yourself. Customers don't have to do it on their own. You know, together AWS and Red Hat, we have our rich partner ecosystem, you know AWS over AWS has over a hundred thousand partners that can help you take that journey, the transformation journey. And within AWS and working with our partners like Red Hat, we make sure that we have all in, in my mind there are really three big pillars that you have to have to make sure that customers can successfully re-platform refactor their applications to the modern cloud architecture. You need to have the rich set of services and tools that meet their different scenarios, different use cases. Because no one size fits all. You have to have the right programs because sometimes customers need those incentives, they need those, you know, that help in the first step and last but no needs, they need training. So all of that, we try to cover that as we work with our customers, work with our partners and that is where, you know, together we try to help customers take that step, which is, which is a challenging step to take. >>Yeah. You know, it's great to talk to you guys, both leaders in your field. Obviously Red hats, well story history. I remember the days back when I was provisioning, loading OSS on hardware with, with CDs, if you remember, that was days gunner. But now with high level services, if you look at this year's reinvent, and this is like kind of my final question for the segment is then we'll get your reaction to is last year we talked about higher level services. I sat down with Adam Celski, we talked about that. If you look at what's happened this year, you're starting to see people talk about their environment as their cloud. So Amazon has the gift of the CapEx, the all that, all that investment and people can operate on top of it. They're calling that environment their cloud. Okay, For the first time we're seeing this new dynamic where it's like they have a cloud, but they're Amazon's the CapEx, they're operating. So you're starting to see the operational visibility gun around how to operate this environment. And it's not hybrid this, that it's just, it's cloud. This is kind of an inflection point. Do you guys agree with that or, or having a reaction to that statement? Because I, I think this is kind of the next gen super cloud-like capability. It's, it's, we're going, we're building the cloud. It's now an environment. It's not talking about private cloud, this cloud, it's, it's all cloud. What's your reaction? >>Yeah, I think, well I think it's a very natural, I mean we used words like hybrid cloud, multi-cloud, if, I guess super cloud is what the kids are saying now, right? It's, it's all, it's all describing the same phenomena, right? Which is, which is being able to take advantage of lots of different infrastructure options, but still having something that creates some commonality among them so that you can, so that you can manage them effectively, right? So that you can have kind of uniform compliance across your estate so that you can have kind of, you can make the best use of your talent across the estate. I mean this is a, this is, it's a very natural thing. >>They're calling it cloud, the estate is the cloud. >>Yeah. So yeah, so, so fine if it, if it means that we no longer have to argue about what's multi-cloud and what's hybrid cloud, I think that's great. Let's just call it cloud. >>And what's your reaction, cuz this is kind of the next gen benefits of, of higher level services combined with amazing, you know, compute and, and resource at the infrastructure level. What's your, what's your view on that? >>Yeah, I think the construct of a unified environment makes sense for customers who have all these use cases which require, like for instance, if you are doing some edge computing and you're running it WS outpost or you know, wave lent and these things. So, and, and it is, it is fear for customer to say, think that hey, this is one environment, same set of tooling that they wanna build that works across all their different environments. That is why we work with partners like Red Hat so that customers who are running Red Hat Enterprise Linux on premises and who are running in AWS get the same level of support, get the same level of security features, all of that. So from that sense, it actually makes sense for us to build these capabilities in a way that customers don't have to worry about, Okay, now I'm actually in the AWS data center versus I'm running outpost on premises. It is all one. They, they just use the same set of cli command line APIs and all of that. So in that sense, it's actually helps customers have that unification so that that consistency of experience helps their workforce and be more productive versus figuring out, okay, what do I do, which tool I use? Where >>And on you just nailed it. This is about supply chain sustainability, moving the workloads into a cloud environment. You mentioned wavelength, this conversation's gonna continue. We haven't even talked about the edge yet. This is something that's gonna be all about operating these workloads at scale and all the, with the cloud services. So thanks for sharing that and we'll pick up that edge piece later. But for reinvent right now, this is really the key conversation. How to bake the sustained supply chain work in a complex environment, making it simpler. And so thanks for sharing your insights here on the cube. >>Thanks. Thanks for having >>Us. Okay, this is the cube's coverage of ados Reinvent 22. I'm John Fur, your host. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to Boston, Massachusetts. We're here at the Seaport. You're watching theCUBE's coverage of Red Hat Summit 2022. My name is Dave Vellante and Paul Gillin is here. He's my cohost for the next day. We are going to dig in to the famous RHEL, Red Hat Enterprise Linux. Gunnar Hellekson is here, he's the Vice President and General Manager of Red Hat Enterprise Linux. Gunnar, welcome to theCUBE. Good to see you. >> Thanks for having me. Nice to be here, Dave, Paul. >> RHEL 9 is, wow, nine, Holy cow. It's been a lot of iterations. >> It's the highest version of RHEL we've ever shipped. >> And now we're talking edge. >> Yeah, that's right. >> And so, what's inside, tell us. to keep happy with a new RHEL release. to keep happy with a new RHEL release. The first is the hardware partners, right, because they rely on RHEL to light up all their delicious hardware that they're making, then you got application developers and the ISVs who rely on RHEL to be that kind of stable platform for innovation, and then you've got the operators, the people who are actually using the operating system itself and trying to keep it running every day. So we've got on the, I'll start with the hardware side, So we've got on the, I'll start with the hardware side, which is something, as you know, RHEL success, and I think you talked about this with Matt, just in a few sessions earlier that the success of RHEL is really, hinges on our partnerships with the hardware partners and in this case, we've got, let's see, in RHEL 9 we've got all the usual hardware suspects and we've added, just recently in January, we added support for ARM servers, as general ARM server class hardware. And so that's something customers have been asking for, delighted to be shipping that in RHEL 9. So now ARM is kind of a first-class citizen, right? Alongside x86, PowerZ and all the other usual suspects. And then of course, working with our favorite public cloud providers. So making sure that RHEL 9 is available at AWS and Azure and GCP and all our other cloud friends, right? >> Yeah, you mentioned ARM, we're seeing ARM in the enterprise. We're obviously seeing ARM at the edge. You guys have been working with ARM for a long time. You're working with Intel, you're working with NVIDIA, you've got some announcements this week. Gunnar, how do you keep Linux from becoming Franken OS with all these capabilities? >> This is a great question. First is, the most important thing is to be working closely with, I mean, the whole point of Linux and the reason why Linux works is because you have all these people working together to make the same thing, right? And so fighting that is a bad idea. Working together with everyone, leaning into that collaboration, that's an important part of making it work over time. The other one is having, just like in any good relationship, having healthy boundaries. And so making sure that we're clear about the things that we need to keep stable and the places where we're allowed to innovate and striking the right balance between those two things, that allows us to continue to ship one coherent operating system while still keeping literally thousands of platforms happy. >> So you're not trying to suck in all the full function, you're trying to accommodate that function that the ecosystem is going to develop? >> Yeah, that's right. So the idea is that what we strive for is consistency across all of the infrastructures and then allowing for kind of optimizations and we still let ourselves take advantage of whatever indigenous feature might appear on, such an ARM chip or thus in a such cloud platform. But really, we're trying to deliver a uniform platform experience to the application developers, right? Because they can't be having, like there can't be kind of one version of RHEL over here and another version of RHEL over here, the ecosystem wouldn't work. The whole point of Linux and the whole point of Red Hat Enterprise Linux is to be the same so that everything else can be different. >> And what incentives do you use to keep customers current? >> To keep customers current? Well so the best thing to do I found is to meet customers where they are. So a lot of people think we release RHEL 9 at the same time we have Red Hat Enterprise Linux 8, we have Red Hat Enterprise Linux 7, all these are running at the same time, and then we also have multiple minor release streams inside those. So at any given time, we're running, let's say, a dozen different versions of RHEL are being maintained and kept up-to-date, and we do this precisely to make sure that we're not force marching people into the new version and they have a Red Hat Enterprise Linux subscription, they should just be able to sit there and enjoy the minor version that they like. And we try and keep that going for as long as possible. >> Even if it's 10 years out of date? >> So, 10 years, interesting you chose that number because that's the end of life. >> That's the end of the life cycle. >> Right. And so 10 years is about, that's the natural life of a given major release, but again inside that you have several 10-year life cycles kind of cascading on each other, right? So nine is the start of the next 10-year cycle while we're still living inside the 10-year cycle of seven and eight. So lots of options for customers. >> How are you thinking about the edge? how do you define, let's not go to the definition, but at high level. (Gunnar laughing) Like I've been in a conference last week. It was Dell Tech World, I'll just say it. They were sort of the edge to them was the retail store. >> Yeah. >> Lowe's, okay, cool, I guess that's edgy, I guess, But I think space is the edge. (Gunnar chuckling) >> Right, right, right. >> Or a vehicle. How do you think about the edge? All the above or but the exciting stuff to me is that far edge, but I wonder if you can comment. >> Yeah, so there's all kinds of taxonomies out there for the edge. For me, I'm a simple country product manager at heart and so, I try to keep it simple, right? And the way I think about the edge is, here's a use case in which somebody needs a small operating system that deploys on probably a small piece of hardware, usually varying sizes, but it could be pretty small. That thing needs to be updated without any human touching it, right? And it needs to be reliably maintained without any human touching it. Usually in the edge cases, actually touching the hardware is a very expensive proposition. So we're trying to be as hands off as possible. >> No truck rolls. >> No truck rolls ever, right, exactly. (Dave chuckling) And then, now that I've got that stable base, I'm going to go take an application. I'll probably put it in a container for simplicity's sake and same thing, I want to be able to deploy that application. If something goes wrong, I need to build a roll back to a known good state and then I need to set of management tools that allow me to touch things, make sure that everything is healthy, make sure that the updates roll out correctly, maybe do some AB testing, things like that. So I think about that as, that's the, when we talk about the edge case for RHEL, that's the horizontal use case and then we can do specializations inside particular verticals or particular industries, but at bottom that's the use case we're talking about when we talk about the edge. >> And an assumption of connectivity at some point? >> Yeah. >> Right, you didn't have to always be on. >> Intermittent, latent, eventual connectivity. >> Eventual connectivity. (chuckles) That's right in some tech terms. >> Red Hat was originally a one trick pony. I mean, RHEL was it and now you've got all of these other extensions and different markets that you expanded into. What's your role in coordinating what all those different functions are doing? >> Yes, you look at all the innovations we've made, whether it's in storage, whether it's in OpenShift and elsewhere, RHEL remains the beating heart, right? It's the place where everything starts. And so a lot of what my team does is, yes, we're trying to make all the partners happy, we're also trying to make our internal partners happy, right? So the OpenShift folks need stuff out of RHEL, just like any other software vendor. And so I really think about RHEL is yes, we're a platform, yes, we're a product in our own right, but we're also a service organization for all the other parts of the portfolio. And the reason for that is we need to make sure all this stuff works together, right? Part of the whole reasoning behind the Red Hat Portfolio at large is that each of these pieces build on each other and compliment each other, right? I think that's an important part of the Red Hat mission, the RHEL mission. >> There's an article in the journal yesterday about how the tech industry was sort of pounding the drum on H-1B visas, there's a limit. I think it's been the same limit since 2005, 65,000 a year. We are facing, customers are facing, you guys, I'm sure as well, we are, real skills shortage, there's a lack of talent. How are you seeing companies deal with that? What are you advising them? What are you guys doing yourselves? >> Yeah, it's interesting, especially as everybody went through some flavor of digital transformation during the pandemic and now everybody's going through some, and kind of connected to that, everybody's making a move to the public cloud. They're making operating system choices when they're making those platform choices, right? And I think what's interesting is that, what they're coming to is, "Well, I have a Linux skills shortage and for a thousand reasons the market has not provided enough Linux admins." I mean, these are very lucrative positions, right? With command a lot of money, you would expect their supply would eventually catch up, but for whatever reason, it's not catching up. So I can't solve this by throwing bodies at it so I need to figure out a more efficient way of running my Linux operation. People are making a couple choices. The first is they're ensuring that they have consistency in their operating system choices, whether it's on premise or in the cloud, or even out on the edge, if I have to juggle three, four different operating systems, as I'm going through these three or four different infrastructures, that doesn't make any sense, 'cause the one thing is most precious to me is my Linux talent, right? And so I need to make sure that they're consistent, optimized and efficient. The other thing they're doing is tooling and automation and especially through tools like Ansible, right? Being able to take advantage of as much automation as possible and much consistency as possible so that they can make the most of the Linux talent that they do have. And so with Red Hat Enterprise Linux 9, in particular, you see us make a big investment in things like more automation tools for things like SAP and SQL server deployments, you'll see us make investments in things like basic stuff like the web console, right? We should now be able to go and point and click and go basic Linux administration tasks that lowers the barrier to entry and makes it easier to find people to actually administer the systems that you have. >> As you move out onto these new platforms, particularly on the edge, many of them will be much smaller, limited function. How do you make the decisions about what features you're going to keep or what you're going to keep in RHEL when you're running on a thermostat? >> Okay, so let me be clear, I don't want RHEL to run on a thermostat. (everybody laughing) >> I gave you advantage over it. >> I can't handle the margins on something like that, but at the end. >> You're running on, you're running on the GM. >> Yeah, no that's, right? And so the, so the choice at the, the most important thing we can do is give customers the tools that they need to make the choice that's appropriate for their deployment. I have learned over several years in this business that if I start choosing what content a customer decide wants on their operating system I will always guess it wrong, right? So my job is to make sure that I have a library of reliable, secure software options for them, that they can use as ingredients into their solution. And I give them tools that allow them to kind of curate the operating system that they need. So that's the tool like Image Builder, which we just announced, the image builder service lets a customer go in and point and click and kind of compose the edge operating system they need, hit a button and now they have an atomic image that they can go deploy out on the edge reliably, right? >> Gunnar can you clarify the cadence of releases? >> Oh yeah. >> You guys, the change that you made there. >> Yeah. >> Why that change occurred and what what's the standard today? >> Yeah, so back when we released RHEl 8, so we were just talking about hardware and you know, it's ARM and X86, all these different kinds of hardware, the hardware market is internally. I tell everybody the hardware market just got real weird, right? It's just got, the schedules are crazy. We got so many more entrance. Everything is kind of out of sync from where it used to be, it used to be there was a metronome, right? You mentioned Moore's law earlier. It was like a 18 month metronome. Everybody could kind of set their watch to. >> Right. >> So that's gone, and so now we have so much hardware that we need to reconcile. The only way for us to provide the kind of stability and consistency that customers were looking for was to set a set our own clock. So we said three years for every major release, six months for every minor release and that we will ship a new minor release every six months and a new major release every three years, whether we need it or not. And that has value all by itself. It means that customers can now plan ahead of time and know, okay, in 36 months, the next major release is going to come on. And now that's something I can plan my workload around, that something I can plan a data center migration around, things like that. So the consistency of this and it was a terrifying promise to make three years ago. I am now delighted to announce that we actually made good on it three years later, right? And plan two again, three years from now. >> Is it follow up, is it primarily the processor, optionality and diversity, or as I was talking to an architect, system architect the other day in his premise was that we're moving from a processor centric world to a connect centric world, not just the processor, but the memories, the IO, the controllers, the nics and it's just keeping that system in balance. Does that affect you or is it primarily the processor? >> Oh, it absolutely affects us, yeah. >> How so? >> Yeah, so the operating system is the thing that everyone relies on to hide all that stuff from everybody else, right? And so if we cannot offer that abstraction from all of these hardware choices that people need to make, then we're not doing our job. And so that means we have to encompass all the hardware configurations and all the hardware use cases that we can in order to make an application successful. So if people want to go disaggregate all of their components, we have to let 'em do that. If they want to have a kind of more traditional kind of boxed up OEM experience, they should be able to do that too. So yeah, this is what I mean is because it is RHEL responsibility and our duty to make sure that people are insulated from all this chaos underneath, that is a good chunk of the job, yeah. >> The hardware and the OS used to be inseparable right before (indistinct) Hence the importance of hardware. >> Yeah, that's right. >> I'm curious how your job changes, so you just, every 36 months you roll on a new release, which you did today, you announced a new release. You go back into the workplace two days, how is life different? >> Not at all, so the only constant is change, right? And to be honest, a major release, that's a big event for our release teams. That's a big event for our engineering teams. It's a big event for our product management teams, but all these folks have moved on and like we're now we're already planning. RHEL 9.1 and 9.2 and 8.7 and the rest of the releases. And so it's kind of like brief celebration and then right back to work. >> Okay, don't change so much. >> What can we look forward to? What's the future look like of RHEL, RHEL 10? >> Oh yeah, more bigger, stronger, faster, more optimized for those and such and you get, >> Longer lower, wider. >> Yeah, that's right, yeah, that's right, yeah. >> I am curious about CentOS Stream because there was some controversy around the end of life for CentOS and the move to CentOS Stream. >> Yeah. >> A lot of people including me are not really clear on what stream is and how it differs from CentOS, can you clarify that? >> Absolutely, so when Red Hat Enterprise Linux was first created, this was back in the days of Red Hat Linux, right? And because we couldn't balance the needs of the hobbyist market from the needs of the enterprise market, we split into Red Hat Enterprise Linux and Fedora, okay? So then for 15 years, yeah, about 15 years we had Fedora which is where we took all of our risks. That was kind of our early program where we started integrating new components, new open source projects and all the rest of it. And then eventually we would take that innovation and then feed it into the next version of Red Hat Enterprise Linux. The trick with that is that the Red Hat Enterprise Linux work that we did was largely internal to Red Hat and wasn't accessible to partners. And we've just spent a lot of time talking about how much we need to be collaborating with partners. They really had, a lot of them had to wait until like the beta came out before they actually knew what was going to be in the box, okay, well that was okay for a while but now that the market is the way that it is, things are moving so quickly. We need a better way to allow partners to work together with us further upstream from the actual product development. So that's why we created CentOS Stream. So CentOS Stream is the place where we kind of host the party and people can watch the next version of Red Hat Enterprise get developed in real time, partners can come in and help, customers can come in and help. And we've been really proud of the fact that Red Hat Enterprise Linux 9 is the first release that came completely out of CentOS Stream. Another way of putting that is that Red Hat Enterprise Linux 9 is the first version of RHEL that was actually built, 80, 90% of it was built completely in the open. >> Okay, so that's the new playground. >> Yeah, that's right. >> You took a lot of negative pushback when you made the announcement, is that basically because the CentOS users didn't understand what you were doing? >> No, I think the, the CentOS Linux, when we brought CentOS Linux on, this was one of the things that we wanted to do, is we wanted to create this space where we could start collaborating with people. Here's the lesson we learned. It is very difficult to collaborate when you are downstream of the product you're trying to improve because you've already shipped the product. And so once you're for collaborating downstream, any changes you make have to go all the way up the water slide and before they can head all the way back down. So this was the real pivot that we made was moving that partnership and that collaboration activity from the downstream of Red Hat Enterprise Linux to putting it right in the critical path of Red Hat Enterprise Linux development. >> Great, well, thank you for that Gunnar. Thanks for coming on theCUBE, it's great to, >> Yeah, my pleasure. >> See you and have a great day tomorrow. Thanks, and we look forward to seeing you tomorrow. We start at 9:00 AM. East Coast time. I think the keynotes, we will be here right after that to break that down, Paul Gillin and myself. This is day one for theCUBE's coverage of Red Hat Summit 2022 from Boston. We'll see you tomorrow, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

welcome back to the cube coverage of aws re invent 2021 i'm john furrier your host of the cube this segment we're going to talk about red hat and the aws evolving partnership a great segment really talking about how hybrid and the enterprise are evolving certainly multi-cloud on the horizon but a lot of benefits in the cloud we've been covering on the cube and on siliconangle with red hat for the past year very relevant we've got gunner helixon gm of red hat enterprise linux and joe fernandez vp of and gm of the hybrid platforms both of red hat gentlemen thanks for coming on the cube yeah thanks for having us thanks for having us john so you know you know me i'm a fanboy of red hat so i always say you know you guys made all the right investments openshift all these things that you guys made decisions years ago playing out beautifully and i think you know with amazon's reinvent you're seeing the themes all play out modern application stack you're starting to see things at the top of the stack evolving you've got 5g in the edge workloads being redefined and expanded on the cloud with cloud scale so everything has been going down to hybrid and enterprise grade level discussions this is on the wheelhouse of red hat so one congratulations but what's your reaction what do you guys see this year at re invent what's the top story i can start first yeah sure i mean i mean clearly you know aws itself is huge but as you mentioned the world is hybrid right so customers are running uh still in their data center in the amazon public cloud across multiple public clouds and out to the edge and bringing more and more workloads right so it's not just the applications it's analytics it's ai it's machine learning and so yeah we just can expect to see more discussion around that more great examples of customer use cases and as you mentioned red hat's been right in the middle of this for some time john you guys also had some success with with the fully managed open shift service called rosa rosa which is red hat open shift service on advanced another acronym but really this is about the what the customers are looking for can you take us through an update on openshift on aws because the combination of managed services in the cloud refactoring applications but working on premises is a big deal take us through that why that's so important yeah so we've had customers running uh openshift on aws for a long time right so whether it's our software uh offerings where customers deploy openshift themselves or you know our fully managed cloud service we've had cloud services on aws for over five years uh what rosa brings a red hat open shift on aws is a jointly managed service right so we're working in partnership with uh with amazon with aws to make openshift available as a jointly managed service offering it's a native aws service offering you can get it right through the aws console you can leverage your aws committed spend but most importantly you know it's something that we're working on together bringing new customers to the table for both red hat and aws and we're really excited about it because it's really helping customers accelerate their move to the public cloud and and really helping them uh you know drive that hybrid strategy that we talked about gun early you know i want to get your thoughts on this because one of the things that i love about this market right now is open source continues to be amazing continues to drive more value and this new migration of talent coming in the numbers are just continuing to to grow and grow but the importance of red hat's history with aws is pretty significant i mean red hat pioneered open source uh and has been involved with aws from the early days can you take us through a little bit of the history for the folks that may not know red hat's partnership with aws yeah i mean we've been collaborating with aws since uh 2008 so for over a decade we've been working together and what's made the partnership work is uh that we have a common interest in making sure that uh customers have a consistent approachable experience whether they're going on-premise or in the cloud nobody wants to have to go through an entire retraining and retooling exercise just to take advantage of all the great all the great advantages of the cloud and so being able to use something like red hat enterprise linux as a consistent substrate on which you can build your application platforms is really attractive so that's where the partnership started and since then we've had the ability to better integrate with the native aws services and one thing i want to point out is that you know a lot of these a lot of these integrations are kind of technical well but these are also uh it's not just about technical consistency um across these platforms it's also about operational consistency and business concerns and when you're moving into an open hybrid cloud kind of a situation that's what becomes important right you don't want to have two completely different tool sets on two completely different platforms you want as much consistency as possible as you move from one to the other and i think you and i think a lot of customers see value in that both for the retta enterprise linux side of the business and also on the openshift side of the business well that's interesting i'd love to get your both perspective on this whole enterprise focus because you know the enterprises as you know guys you've been there from the beginning they have requirements and they're sometimes they're different by enterprise so as you see cloud i mean i remember the early days of amazon it's the 15th year of aws 10th year of reinvent as a conference i mean that seems like a lifetime ago but that's not not too far ago where you know there's like well amazon might not make it it's only for developers enterprises do their own thing now it's like it's all about the enterprise how are enterprise customers evolving with you guys because they're all seeing the benefit of re-platforming but as they refactor how has red hat evolved with that with that trend how have you helped amazon yeah so as we mentioned you know enterprises you know really across the globe are adopting a hybrid cloud strategy but hybrid actually isn't just about the infrastructure so certainly the infrastructure where these enterprises are running this application is increasingly becoming hybrid as you move from data center to multiple public clouds and out to the edge but the enterprises application portfolios are also hybrid right it's a hybrid mix of very traditional monolithic anterior type applications but also new cloud native services that have either been filled built from scratch or as you mentioned you know existing applications have been refactored and then they're moving beyond the applications as i mentioned to make better use of data also evolving their processes right for how they you know build deploy and manage you know leveraging ci cd and git ops and so forth so really for us it's how do you help enterprises bring all that together right manage this hybrid infrastructure that's supporting this you know hybrid portfolio of applications and really help them evolve their processes we've been uh you know working with enterprises on these types of challenges for a long time and and we're you know now partnering with amazon to do the same in terms of our joint product and service offerings talk about the rel evolution i mean because that's the bread and butter for red hat's been there for a long time open shift again making earlier i mentioned the bets you guys made with kubernetes for instance and has all been made all the right moves so i love rosa you got me sold on that rail though has been the the tr the tried and true steady uh workhorse how has that evolved uh with workloads yeah you know it's interesting it's uh uh i think when when customers were at the stage when they were wondering if uh well can i use aws for to solve my problem or where should i use aws to solve my problem our focus was largely on kind of technical enablement can we keep up with the pace of new hardware that amazon is rolling up you know can we can we ensure that consistency with on-premise and off-premise and i think now we're starting to shift focus into uh really differentiating rel on the aws platform again integrating natively with aws services making it easier to operate in aws um and a good example of this is using tools like red hat insights which we announced i guess about a year ago which is now included in every red hat enterprise linux subscription using tools like insights in order to give customers advice on maybe potential problems that are coming up helping customers solve them kelvin customers identify problems before they before they happen helping them with performance problems um and uh again having uh additional tools like that additional cloud-based tools um makes rel uh as easy to use on the on the cloud despite all the complexity of all the you know the redeploying refactoring microservices there's now a proliferation of infrastructure options um and to the extent that rail can be the thing that is consistent solid reliable secure uh just as customers are customers getting in um then then we can make customers successful you know joe we talked about this last time we were chatting i think red hat summit or ansible fest i forget which event it was but we were talking about how modern application developers at the top of the stack just want to code they want to write some code and now they want the infrastructure's code aka devops devsecops but as this trend of moving up the stack continues to be a big theme at reinvent um there requires automation that requires a lot of stuff to happen under the covers red hat's at the center of all this action from from historical perspective pre-existing enterprises before cloud now during cloud and soon to be cloud scale how do you see that evolving because how are customers shaping their architecture because i mean this is distributed computing in the cloud it's it's essentially we've seen this movie before but now at such a scale where data security these are all new elements how do you how do you talk about that yeah well first of all as as gunner linux is a given right linux is going to be available in every environment data center public cloud edge linux combined with linux containers and kubernetes that's the abstraction like separating abstracting the applications away from the infrastructure and now it's all about how do you build on top of that to bring that automation that you mentioned right so you know we're very focused on helping customers really build you know fully automated end-to-end deployment pipelines so they can build their applications more efficiently they can automate the the continuous integration and deployment of those applications into whatever cloud or edge footprint they choose and then they can promote across environments because again it's not just about developing the applications it's about moving them all the way through to production you know where you know work their customers are relying on you know on those services to do their work and so forth and so that's that's what we're doing is you know obviously uh i think linux is a given linux containers kubernetes you know those decisions you know have been made and now it's a matter of how can we put that together uh with the automation that allows them to accelerate those deployments out to production so customers can take advantage of them you know gunner we were always joking on the cube you know i was old enough remember when we used to install linux on a server back in the day you know now a lot of these young developers never actually act to install the software and do some of those configurations because it's all automated now again the commoditization and automation trend abstraction layers some say is a good thing um so how do you see the evolution of this devops movement with the partnership of aws going forward what types of things are you working on with amazon web services and what kind of offerings can customers look forward to yeah sure so i mean it used to be that uh as you say you know linux was something that you managed with a mouse and a keyboard and uh and i think it's been quite a few years since uh since any significant amount of linux has been managed for the mouse and keyboard a lot of it is uh whatever scripts automation tools configuration management tools things like this and the investments we've made both in rel and then specifically uh rel on aws is around enabling rail to be more manageable um and so including things like something we call system roles so these are ansible modules that kind of automate routine systems administration tasks um we've made investments in something called image builder and so this is a tool that allows customers to kind of compose the operating system that they need create a blueprint for it and then kind of stamp out uh the same image whether it's uh an iso image you know so you can install it on premise or in it or in mi so we can deploy it in aws so again helping customers it's the problem used to be helping customers package and manage dependencies and and that kind of old world three and a half inch floppy disk kind of linux problems um and now we've evolved towards making uh making linux easier to deploy and manage at a grand scale um both whether you're in aws or whether you're on premise joe take us through the hybrid story i know obviously success with openshift's managed service on aws uh what's the update there for you what what are customers expecting this re invent and what's the story for uh for you guys yeah so you know the openshift managed services business is the fastest growing segment of our business we're seeing uh lots of new customers and again you know bringing new customers i think for both uh red hat and and aws through this service um so we expect to to hear from from customers uh at re invent about what they're doing again and not not only with uh with openshift and our uh our red hat solutions but really with with what they're building on top of those uh service offerings of those solutions to to sort of bring more value to their customers so that to me that's always the best part of re invent is is really hearing from customers and you know when we all start going there in person again to actually be able to meet with them one-on-one uh whether it's in person or virtual so far so looking forward to that well great to have you guys on thecube congratulations on all the success the enterprise continues to adopt more and more cloud which benefits all the work you guys have done both on the rail side and as you guys modernized with all these great services and managed services continues to be the center of all the action thanks for coming on appreciate it thanks john okay red hat's partnership with aws evolving as cloud scale edge all happening all distributed computing all happening at large scale it's thecube with cube coverage of aws re invent 2021 i'm john furrier thanks for watching [Music] you

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to theCUBE coverage of AWS re:Invent 2021. I'm John Furrier, your host for theCUBE. In this segment, we're going to be talking about Red Hat and the AWS evolving partnership. A great segment, really talking about how Hybrid and the Enterprise are evolving, certainly multicloud and the horizon. But a lot of benefits in the cloud, we've been covering on theCUBE and on SiliconANGLE with Red Hat for the past year. Very relevant. We've got Gunnar Hellekson, GM of Red Hat Enterprise Linux, And Joe Fernandes, VP and GM of the Hybrid Platforms, both of Red Hat. Gentlemen, thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Yeah, thanks for having us. >> Thanks for having us John. >> So, you know, me, I'm a fan boy of Red Hat. So I always say, you guys made all the right investments, OpenShift, all these things that you guys made decisions years ago playing out beautifully. And I think, you know, with Amazon's re:Invent, you're seeing the themes all play out. Modern application stack, you're starting to see things at the top of the stack evolve, you've got 5G in the Edge, workloads being redefined and expanded on the cloud with Cloud Scale. So everything has been going down to Hybrid and Enterprise grade level discussions. This is in the Wheelhouse of Red Hat. So I want to congratulate you. But what's your reaction? What do you guys see this year at re:Invent? What's the top story? >> I can start. >> Who wants to start with first? >> Sure, I mean, clearly, AWS itself is huge. But as you mentioned, the world is Hybrid, right, so customers are running still in their data center, in the Amazon Public Cloud across multiple Public Clouds and out to the Edge and bring in more and more workloads. So it's not just the applications, analytics. It's AI, it's machine learning. And so, yeah, we can expect to see more discussion around that, more great examples of customer use cases. And as you mentioned, Red Hat has been right in the middle of this for some time John. >> You guys also had some success with the fully managed OpenShift service called ROSA, R-O-S-A, which is Red Hat OpenShift Service on AWS, another acronym, but really this is about what the customers are looking for. Can you take us through an update on OpenShift on AWS, because the combination of managed services in the cloud, refactoring applications, but working on-premises is a big deal. Take us through why that's so important. >> Yeah, so, we've had customers running OpenShift on AWS for a long time, right? So whether it's our software-based offerings where customers deploy OpenShift themselves, or our fully managed cloud service. We've had cloud services on AWS for over five years. What ROSA brings or Red Hat OpenShift on AWS is a jointly managed service, right? So we're working in partnership with Amazon, with AWS to make OpenShift available as a jointly-managed service offering. It's a native AWS service offering. You can get it right through the AWS console. You can leverage your AWS committed spend. But, most importantly, you know, it's something that we're working on together. Bringing new customers to the table for both Red Hat and AWS. And we're really excited about it because it's really helping customers accelerate their move to the public cloud and really helping them drive that Hybrid strategy that we talked about. >> Gunnar, you know what I want to get your thoughts on this, because one of the things that I love about this market right now is open-source continues to be amazing, continues to drive more value, and there's new migration of talent coming in. The numbers are just continuing to grow and grow. But the importance of Red Hat's history with AWS is pretty significant. I mean, Red Hat pioneered Open-source and it's been involved with AWS from the early days. Can you take us through a little bit of history for the folks that may not know Red Hat's partnership with AWS? >> Yeah. I mean, we've been collaborating with AWS since 2008. So for over a decade we've been working together, and what's made the partnership work is that we have a common interest in making sure that customers have a consistent approachable experience. Whether they're going on-premise or in the cloud. Nobody wants to have to go through an entire retraining and retooling exercise just to take advantage of all the great advantages of the cloud. And, so being able to use something like Red Hat Enterprise Linux as a consistent substrate on which you can build your application platforms is really attractive. So, that's where the partnership started. And since then we've had the ability to better integrate with native AWS services. And one thing I want to point out is that, a lot of these integrations are kind of technical. It's not just about technical consistency across these platforms, it's also about operational consistency and business concerns. And when you're moving into an Open Hybrid Cloud kind of a situation, that's what becomes important, right? You don't want to have two completely different tool sets on two completely different platforms. You want as much consistency as possible as you move from one to the other. And I think a lot of customers see value in that, both for the Red Hat Enterprise Linux side of the business, and also on the OpenShift side of the business. >> Well that's interesting. I'd love to get your both perspective on this whole Enterprise focus, because the Enterprise is, as you know, guys you've been there from the beginning, they have requirements. And there're sometimes, they're different by Enterprise. So as you see cloud, and I remember early days of Amazon, it's the 15th year of AWS, 10th year of re:Invent as a conference. I mean, that seems like a lifetime ago. But that's not, not too far ago where, you know, it was like, well, Amazon might not make it, its only for developers. Enterprisers do their own thing. Now it's like, it's all about the Enterprise. How are Enterprise customers evolving with you guys? Because they're all seeing the benefit of replatforming. But as they refactor, how has Red Hat evolved with that trend and how have you helped Amazon? >> Yeah, so as we mentioned, Enterprisers really across the globe are adopting a Hybrid Cloud Strategy. But, Hybrid actually isn't just about the infrastructure. So, its certainly the infrastructure where these Enterprisers are running these applications is increasingly becoming Hybrid as you move from data center to multiple public clouds and out to the Edge. But the Enterprisers application portfolios are also Hybrid, right? It's a Hybrid mix of very traditional monolithic and tier type applications. But also new cloud native services that have either been built from scratch, or as you mentioned, existing applications have been refactored. And then they're moving beyond the applications, as I mentioned to make better use of data. Also evolving their processes for how they build, deploy, and manage, leveraging, CI/CD and GitOps and so forth. So really for us it's, how do you help Enterprises bring all that together, right? Manage this Hybrid infrastructure that's supporting this Hybrid portfolio of applications that really help them evolve their processes. We've been working with Enterprises on these types of challenges for a long time. And we're now partnering with Amazon to do the same in terms of our joint product and service offerings. >> Talking about the RHEL evolution. I mean, because that's the bread and butter for Red Hat. It has been there for a long time. OpenShift again, making argument earlier, I mentioned the bets you guys made with Kubernetes, for instance, and it's all been made with all the right moves. So I love ROSA. You got me sold on that. RHEL though has been the tried and true steady workhorse. How has that evolved with workloads? >> Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I think when customers were at the stage, when they were wondering, if well, can I use AWS to solve my problem, or should I use AWS to solve my problem? Our focus was largely on kind of technical enablement. Can we keep up with the pace of new hardware that Amazon is rolling up? Can we ensure that consistency with the on-premise and off-premise? And I think now we're starting to shift focus into really differentiating RHEL on the AWS platform. Again, integrating natively with AWS services, making it easier to operate in AWS. And a good example of this is using tools like Red Hat Insights, which we announced, I guess, about a year ago. Which is now included in every Red Hat Enterprise Linux subscription. Using tools like Insights in order to give customers advice on maybe potential problems that are coming up, helping customer solve them. Can the customers identify problems before they happen? Helping them with performance problems. And again, having additional tools like that, additional cloud-based tools, makes RHEL as easy to use on the Cloud despite all the complexity of all the redeploying, refactoring, microservices, there is now a proliferation of infrastructure options, and to the extent that RHEL can be the thing that is consistent, solid, reliable, secure, just as customers are getting in, then we can make customer successful. >> You know, Joe, we talked about this last time we were chatting, I think Red Hat Summit or Ansible Fest, I forget which event it was, but we were talking about how modern application developers at the top of the stack just want to code. They want to write some code, and now they want the infrastructure's code, AKA DevOps, DevSecOps, but as this trend of moving up the stack continues to be a big theme at re:Invent, that requires automation. That requires a lot of stuff that happened under the covers. Red Hat is at the center of all this action from historical perspective, pre-existing Enterprises before Cloud now, during Cloud, and soon to be Cloud Scale, how do you see that evolving? Because how are customers shaping their architecture? Cause this is distributed computing in the cloud. It's essentially, we've seen this moving before, but now at such a scale where data, security, these are all new elements. How do you talk about that? >> Yeah, well, first of all, got to mention, Linux is a given right. Linux is going to be available in every environment, data center, Public Cloud, Edge. Linux combined with Linux containers and Kubernetes, that's the abstraction like abstracting the applications away from the infrastructure. And now it's all about how do you build on top of that to bring that automation that you mentioned. So, we're very focused on helping customers really build fully automated end to end deployment pipelines, so they can build their applications more efficiently. They can automate the continuous integration and deployment of those applications into whatever Cloud or Edge footprint they choose. And that they can promote across environments. Because again, it's not just about developing the applications, it's about moving them all the way through to production where their customers are relying on those services to do their work and so forth. And so that's what we're doing is, you know, obviously I think, Linux is a given, Linux, Containers, Kubernetes. Those decisions have been made and now it's a matter of how can we put that together with the automation that allows them to accelerate those deployments out to production so customers can take advantage of them? >> You know, Gunnar, we were joking in theCUBE. I was old enough to remember we used to install Linux on a server back in the day. Now a lot of these young developers never actually have to install the software and do some of those configurations 'cause it's all automated now. Again, the commoditization and automation trend, abstraction layers, some say, is a good thing. So how do you see the evolution of this DevOps movement with the partnership with AWS going forward? What types of things are you working on with Amazon Web Services and what kind of offerings can customers look forward to? >> Yeah, sure. So, I mean, it used to be that as you say, Linux was something that you managed with a mouse and keyboard. And I think it's been quite a few years since any significant amount of Linux has been managed with a mouse and a keyboard. A lot of it is scripts, automation tools, configuration management tools, things like this. And the investments we've made both in RHEL and in specifically RHEL on AWS is around enabling RHEL to be more manageable. And so, including things like something we call System Roles. So these are Ansible modules that kind of automate routine system's administration tasks. We've made investments in something called Image Builder. And so this is a tool that allows customers to kind of compose the operating system that they need, create a blueprint for it, and then kind of stamp out the same image, whether it's an ISO image, so you can install it on-premise or an AMI so we can deploy it in AWS. So again, the problem used to be helping customers package and manage dependencies and that kind of old world, three and a half-inch floppy disc kind of Linux problems. And now we've evolved towards making Linux easier to deploy and manage at a grand scale whether you're in AWS or whether you're On premise. >> Joe, take us through the Hybrid story. I know obviously success with OpenShifts Managed Service on AWS. What's the update there for you? What are customers expecting this re:Invent and what's the story for you guys? >> Yeah, so, you know, the OpenShift Managed Services business this is the fastest growing segment of our business. We're seeing lots of new customers. And again, bringing new customers, I think for both Red Hat and AWS through this service. So, we expected to hear from customers at re:Invent about what they're doing. Again, not only with OpenShift and our Red Hat solutions, but really with what they're building on top of those service offerings, of those solutions to sort of bring more value to their customers. To me, that's always the best part of re:Invent is really hearing from customers. And when we all start going there in person again, to actually be able to meet with them one-on-one, whether it's in person or virtual and so forth. So, looking forward to that. >> Well, great to have you guys on theCUBE. Congratulations on all success. The Enterprise continues to adopt more and more Cloud which benefits all the work you guys have done both on the RHEL side, and as you guys modernize with all these great services and managed services continues to be the center of all the action. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. >> Thanks John. >> Thank you. >> Okay, Red Hat's partnership with AWS evolving as Cloud scale Edge, all distributed computing, all happening at large scale. This is theCUBE with CUBE coverage of AWS re:Invent 2021. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>Yeah, >>from the Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston. It's the Cube covering IBM. Think brought to you by IBM. >>Everybody, this is Dave Vellante of the Cube. Welcome back. The continuous coverage that we're running here of the IBM Think Digital 2020 Experience. I'm with Radica Gunnar, who is a longtime Cube alum. She's the vice president for Data and AI. Expert labs and learning Radica. Always a pleasure. I wish we were seeing each other face to face in San Francisco. But, you know, we have to make the best. >>Always a pleasure to be with you, Dave. >>So, listen, um, we last saw each other in Miami Attain IBM data event. You hear a lot of firsts in the industry. You hear about Cloud? First, you hear about data. First hear about AI first. I'm really interested in how you see AI first coming customers. They want to operationalize ai. They want to be data first. They see cloud, you know, is basic infrastructure to get there, but ultimately they want insights out of data. And that's where AI comes in. What's your point of view on this? >>I think any client that's really trying to establish how to be able to develop a AI factory in their organization so that they're embedding AI across the most pervasive problems that they have in their order. They need to be able to start first with the data. That's why we have the AI ladder, where we really think the foundation is about how clients organized there to collect their data, organize their data, analyze it, infuse it in the most important applications and, of course, use that whole capability to be able to modernize what they're doing. So we all know to be able to have good ai, you need a good foundational information, architecture and the US A lot of the first steps we have with our clients is really starting with data doing an analysis of where are you with the data maturity? Once you have that, it becomes easier to start applying AI and then to scale AI across the business. >>So unpack that a little bit and talk about some of the critical factors and the ingredients that are really necessary to be successful. What are you seeing with customers? >>Well, to be successful with, a lot of these AI projects have mentioned. It starts with the data, and when we come to those kind of characteristics, you would often think that the most important thing is the technology. It's not that is a myth. It's not the reality. What we found is some of the most important things start with really understanding and having a sponsor who understands the importance of the AI capabilities that you're trying to be able to drive through business. So do you have the right hunger and curiosity of across your organization from top to bottom to really embark on a lot of these AI project? So that's cultural element. I would say that you have to be able to have that in beds within it, like the skills capabilities that you need to be able to have, not just by having the right data scientists or the right data engineers, but by having every person who is going to be able to touch these new applications and to use these new applications, understand how AI is going to impact them, and then it's really about the process. You know, I always talk about AI is not a thing. It's an ingredient that makes everything else better, and that means that you have to be able to change your processes. Those same applications that had Dev ops process is to be able to put it in production. Need to really consider what it means to have something that's ever changing, like AI as part of that which is also really critical. So I think about it as it is a foundation in the data, the cultural changes that you need to have from top to bottom of the organization, which includes the skills and then the process components that need to be able to change. >>Do you really talking about like Dev ops for AI data ops, I think is a term that's gonna gaining popularity of you guys have applied some of that in internally. Is that right? >>Yeah, it's about the operations of the AI life cycle in, and how you can automate as much of that is possible by AI. They're as much as possible, and that's where a lot of our investments in the Data and AI space are going into. How do you use AI for AI to be able to automate that whole AI life site that you need to be able to have in it? Absolutely >>So I've been talking a lot of C. XO CEO CEOs. We've held some C so and CEO roundtables with our data partner ET are. And one of the things that's that's clear is they're accelerating certain things as a result of code 19. There's certainly much more receptive to cloud. Of course, the first thing you heard from them was a pivot to work from home infrastructure. Many folks weren't ready, so okay, but the other thing that they've said is even in some hard hit industries, we've essentially shut down all spending, with the exception of very, very critical things, including, interestingly, our digital transformation. And so they're still on that journey. They realized the strategic imperative. Uh, and they don't want to lose out. In fact, they want to come out of this stronger AI is a critical part of that. So I'm wondering what you've seen specifically with respect to the pandemic and customers, how they're approaching ai, whether or not you see it accelerating or sort of on the same track. What are you seeing out there with clients? >>You know, this is where, um in pandemics In areas where, you know, we face a lot of uncertainty. I am so proud to be an IBM. Er, um, we actually put out offer when the pandemic started in a March timeframe. Teoh Many of our organizations and communities out there to be able to use our AI technologies to be able to help citizens really understand how Kobe 19 was gonna affect them. What are the symptoms? Where can I get tested? Will there be school tomorrow? We've helped hundreds of organizations, and not only in the public sector in the healthcare sector, across every sector be able to use AI capabilities. Like what we have with Watson assistant to be able to understand how code in 19 is impacting their constituents. As I mentioned, we have hundreds of them. So one example was Children's health care of Atlanta, where they wanted to be able to create an assistant to be able to help parents really understand what symptoms are and how to handle diagnosis is so. We have been leveraging a lot of AI technologies, especially right now, to be able to help, um, not just citizens and other organizations in the public and healthcare sector, but even in the consumer sector, really understand how they can use AI to be able to engage with their constituents a lot more closely. That's one of the areas where we have done quite a bit of work, and we're seeing AI actually being used at a much more rapid rate than ever >>before. Well, I'm excited about this because, you know, we were talking about the recovery, What there's a recovery look like is it v shaped? Nobody really expects that anymore. But maybe a U shaped. But the big concern people have, you know, this w shape recovery. And I'm hopeful that machine intelligence and data can be used to just help us really understand the risks. Uh, and then also getting out good quality information. I think it's critical. Different parts of the country in the world are gonna open at different rates. We're gonna learn from those experiences, and we need to do this in near real time. I mean, things change. Certainly there for a while they were changing daily. They kind of still are. You know, maybe we're on a slower. Maybe it's three or four times a week now, but that pace of change is critical and, you know, machine machines and the only way to keep up with that wonder if you could comment. >>Well, machines are the only way to keep, and not only that, but you want to be able to have the most up to date relevant information that's able to be communicated to the masses and ways that they can actually consume that data. And that's one of the things that AI and one of the assistant technologies that we have right now are able to do. You can continually update and train them such that they can continually engage with that end consumer and that end user and be able to give them the answers they want. And you're absolutely right, Dave. In this world, the answers change every single day and that kind of workload, um, and and the man you can't leave that alone to human laborers. Even human human labors need an assistant to be able to help them answer, because it's hard for them to keep up with what the latest information is. So using AI to be able to do that, it's absolutely critical, >>and I want to stress that I said machines you can't do without machines. And I believe that, but machines or a tool for humans to ultimately make the decisions in a crisis like this because, you see, I mean, I know we have a global audience, but here in the United States, you got you have 50 different governors making decisions about when and how certainly the federal government putting down guidelines. But the governor of Georgia is going to come back differently than the governor of New York, Different from the governor of California. They're gonna make different decisions, and they need data. And AI and Machine intelligence will inform that ultimately their public policy is going to be dictated by a combination of things which obviously includes, you know, machine intelligence. >>Absolutely. I think we're seeing that, by the way, I think many of those governors have made different decisions at different points, and therefore their constituents need to really have a place to be able to understand that as well. >>You know, you're right. I mean, the citizens ultimately have to make the decision while the governor said sick, safe to go out. You know, I'm gonna do some of my own research and you know, just like if you're if you're investing in the stock market, you got to do your own research. It's your health and you have to decide. And to the extent that firms like IBM can provide that data, I think it's critical. Where does the cloud fit in all this? I mentioned the cloud before. I mean, it seems to be critical infrastructure to get information that will talk about >>all of the capabilities that we have. They run on the IBM cloud, and I think this is where you know, when you have data that needs to be secured and needs to be trusted. And you need these AI capabilities. A lot of the solutions that I talked about, the hundreds of implementations that we have done over the past just six weeks. If you kind of take a look at 6 to 8 weeks, all of that on the IBM Public cloud, and so cloud is the thing that facilitates that it facilitates it in a way where it is secure. It is trusted, and it has the AI capabilities that augmented >>critical. There's learning in your title. Where do people go toe? Learn more How can you help them learn about AI And I think it started or keep going? >>Well, you know, we think about a lot of these technologies as it isn't just about the technology. It is about the expertise and the methodologies that we bring to bear. You know, when you talk about data and AI, you want to be able to blend the technology with expertise. Which is why are my title is expert labs that come directly from the labs and we take our learnings through thousands of different clients that we have interacted with, working with the technologies in the lab, understanding those outcomes and use cases and helping our clients be successful with their data and AI projects. So we that's what we do That's our mission. Love doing that every day. >>Well, I think this is important, because I mean, ah company, an organization the size of IBM, a lot of different parts of that organization. So I would I would advise our audience the challenge IBM and say, Okay, you've got that expertise. How are you applying that expertise internally? I mean, I've talked into public Sorry about how you know the data. Science is being applied within IBM. How that's then being brought out to the customers. So you've actually you've got a Petri dish inside this massive organization and it sounds like, you know, through the, you know, the expert labs. And so the Learning Center's you're sort of more than willing to and aggressively actually sharing that with clients. >>Yeah, I think it's important for us to not only eat our own dog food, so you're right. Interpol, The CDO Office Depot office we absolutely use our own technology is to be able to drive the insights we need for our large organization and through the learnings that we have, not only from ourselves but from other clients. We should help clients, our clients and our communities and organizations progress their use of their data and their AI. We really firmly believe this is the only way. Not only these organizations will progress that society as a whole breast, that we feel like it's part of our mission, part of our duty to make sure that it isn't just a discussion on the technology. It is about helping our clients and the community get to the outcomes that they need to using ai. >>Well, guy, I'm glad you invoke the dog food ing because, you know, we use that terminology a lot. A lot of people marketing people stepped back and said, No, no, it's sipping our champagne. Well, to get the champagne takes a lot of work, and the grapes at the early stages don't taste that pain I have to go through. And so that's why I think it's a sort of an honest metaphor, but critical your you've been a friend of the Cube, but we've been on this data journey together for many, many years. Really appreciate you coming on back on the Cube and sharing with the think audience. Great to see you stay safe. And hopefully we'll see you face to face soon. >>All right. Thank you. >>Alright. Take care, my friend. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante for the Cube. You're watching IBM think 2020. The digital version of think we'll be right back after this short break. >>Yeah, yeah, yeah.

>>Live from Miami, Florida. It's the cube covering IBM's data and AI forum brought to you by IBM. >>Welcome back to downtown Miami. Everybody. We're here at the Intercontinental hotel covering the IBM data AI form hashtag data AI forum. My name is Dave Volante and you're watching the cube, the leader in live tech coverage. Ritika gunner is here. She's the vice president of data and AI expert labs and learning at IBM. Ritika, great to have you on. Again, always a pleasure to be here. Dave. I love interviewing you because you're a woman executive that said a lot of different roles at IBM. Um, you know, you've, we've talked about the AI ladder. You're climbing the IBM ladder and so it's, it's, it's, it's awesome to see and I love this topic. It's a topic that's near and dear to the cubes heart, not only women in tech, but women in AI. So great to have you. Thank you. So what's going on with the women in AI program? We're going to, we're going to cover that, but let me start with women in tech. It's an age old problem that we've talked about depending on, you know, what statistic you look at. 15% 17% of, uh, of, of, of the industry comprises women. We do a lot of events. You can see it. Um, let's start there. >>Well, obviously the diversity is not yet there, right? So we talk about women in technology, um, and we just don't have the representation that we need to be able to have. Now when it comes to like artificial intelligence, I think the statistic is 10 to 15% of the workforce today in AI is female. When you think about things like bias and ethicacy, having the diversity in terms of having male and female representation be equal is absolutely essential so that you're creating fair AI, unbiased AI, you're creating trust and transparency, set of capabilities that really have the diversity in backgrounds. >>Well, you work for a company that is as chairman and CEO, that's, that's a, that's a woman. I mean IBM generally, you know, we could see this stuff on the cube because IBM puts women on a, we get a lot of women customers that, that come on >>and not just because we're female, because we're capable. >>Yeah. Well of course. Right. It's just because you're in roles where you're spokespeople and it's natural for spokespeople to come on a forum like this. But, but I have to ask you, with somebody inside of IBM, a company that I could say the test to relative to most, that's pretty well. Do you feel that way or do you feel like even a company like IBM has a long way to go? >>Oh, um, I personally don't feel that way and I've never felt that to be an issue. And if you look at my peers, um, my um, lead for artificial intelligence, Beth Smith, who, you know, a female, a lot of my peers under Rob Thomas, all female. So I have not felt that way in terms of the leadership team that I have. Um, but there is a gap that exists, not necessarily within IBM, but in the community as a whole. And I think it goes back to you want to, you know, when you think about data science and artificial intelligence, you want to be able to see yourself in the community. And while there's only 10 to 15% of females in AI today, that's why IBM has created programs such as women AI that we started in June because we want strong female leaders to be able to see that there are, is great representation of very technical capable females in artificial intelligence that are doing amazing things to be able to transform their organizations and their business model. >>So tell me more about this program. I understand why you started it started in June. What does it entail and what's the evolution of this? >>So we started it in June and the idea was to be able to get some strong female leaders and multiple different organizations that are using AI to be able to change their companies and their business models and really highlight not just the journey that they took, but the types of transformations that they're doing and their organizations. We're going to have one of those events tonight as well, where we have leaders from Harley Davidson in Miami Dade County coming to really talk about not only what was their journey, but what actually brought them to artificial intelligence and what they're doing. And I think Dave, the reason that's so important is you want to be able to understand that those journeys are absolutely approachable. They're doable by any females that are out there. >>Talk about inherent bias. The humans are biased and if you're developing models that are using AI, there's going to be inherent bias in those models. So talk about how to address that and why is it important for more diversity to be injected into those models? >>Well, I think a great example is if you took the data sets that existed even a decade ago, um, for the past 50 years and you created a model that was to be able to predict whether to give loans to certain candidates or not, all things being equal, what would you find more males get these loans than females? The inherent data that exists has bias in it. Even from the history based on what we've had yet, that's not the way we want to be able to do things today. You want to be able to identify that bias and say all things being equal, it is absolutely important that regardless of whether you are a male or a female, you want to be able to give that loan to that person if they have all the other qualities that are there. And that's why being able to not only detect these things but have the diversity and the kinds of backgrounds of people who are building AI who are deploying this AI is absolutely critical. >>So for the past decade, and certainly in the past few years, there's been a light shined on this topic. I think, you know, we were at the Grace Hopper conference when Satya Nadella stuck his foot in his mouth and it said, Hey, it's bad karma for you know, if you feel like you're underpaid to go complain. And the women in the audience like, dude, no way. And he, he did the right thing. He goes, you know what, you're right. You know, any, any backtrack on that? And that was sort of another inflection point. But you talk about the women in, in AI program. I was at a CDO event one time. It was I and I, an IBM or had started the data divas breakfast and I asked, can I go? They go, yeah, you can be the day to dude. Um, which was, so you're seeing a lot of initiatives like this. My question is, are they having the impact that you would expect and that you want to have? >>I think they absolutely are. Again, I mean, I'll go back to, um, I'll give you a little bit of a story. Um, you know, people want to be able to relate and see that they can see themselves in these females leaders. And so we've seen cases now through our events, like at IBM we have a program called grow, which is really about helping our female lead female. Um, technical leaders really understand that they can grow, they can be nurtured, and they have development programs to help them accelerate where they need to be on their technical programs. We've absolutely seen a huge impact from that from a technology perspective. In terms of more females staying in technology wanting to go in the, in those career paths as another story. I'll, I'll give you kind of another kind of point of view. Um, Dave and that is like when you look at where it starts, it starts a lot earlier. >>So I have a young daughter who a year, year and a half ago when I was doing a lot of stuff with Watson, she would ask me, you know, not only what Watson's doing, but she would say, what does that mean for me mom? Like what's my job going to be? And if you think about the changes in technology and cultural shifts, technology and artificial intelligence is going to impact every job, every industry, every role that there is out there. So much so that I believe her job hasn't been invented yet. And so when you think about what's absolutely critical, not only today's youth, but every person out there needs to have a foundational understanding, not only in the three RS that you and I know from when we grew up have reading, writing and arithmetic, we need to have a foundational understanding of what it means to code. And you know, having people feel confident, having young females feel confident that they can not only do that, that they can be technical, that they can understand how artificial intelligence is really gonna impact society. And the world is absolutely critical. And so these types of programs that shed light on that, that help bridge that confidence is game changing. >>Well, you got kids, I >>got kids, I have daughters, you have daughter. Are they receptive to that? So, um, you know, I think they are, but they need to be able to see themselves. So the first time I sent my daughter to a coding camp, she came back and said, not for me mom. I said, why? Because she's like, all the boys, they're coding in their Minecraft area. Not something I can relate to. You need to be able to relate and see something, develop that passion, and then mix yourself in that diverse background where you can see the diversity of backgrounds. When you don't have that diversity and when you can't really see how to progress yourself, it becomes a blocker. So as she started going to grow star programs, which was something in Austin where young girls coded together, it became something that she's really passionate about and now she's Python programming. So that's just an example of yes, you need to be able to have these types of skills. It needs to start early and you need to have types of programs that help enhance that journey. >>Yeah, and I think you're right. I think that that is having an impact. My girls who code obviously as a some does some amazing work. My daughters aren't into it. I try to send them to coder camp too and they don't do it. But here's my theory on that is that coding is changing and, and especially with artificial intelligence and cognitive, we're a software replacing human skills. Creativity is going to become much, much more important. My daughters are way more creative than my sons. I shouldn't say that, but >>I think you just admitted that >>they, but, but in a way they are. I mean they've got amazing creativity, certainly more than I am. And so I see that as a key component of how coding gets done in the future, taking different perspectives and then actually codifying them. Your, your thoughts on that. >>Well there is an element of understanding like the outcomes that you want to generate and the outcomes really is all about technology. How can you imagine the art of the possible with technology? Because technology alone, we all know not useful enough. So understanding what you do with it, just as important. And this is why a lot of people who are really good in artificial intelligence actually come from backgrounds that are philosophy, sociology, economy. Because if you have the culture of curiosity and the ability to be able to learn, you can take the technology aspects, you can take those other aspects and blend them together. So understanding the problem to be solved and really marrying that with the technological aspects of what AI can do. That's how you get outcomes. >>And so we've, we've obviously talking in detail about women in AI and women in tech, but it's, there's data that shows that diversity drives value in so many different ways. And it's not just women, it's people of color, it's people of different economic backgrounds, >>underrepresented minorities. Absolutely. And I think the biggest thing that you can do in an organization is have teams that have that diverse background, whether it be from where they see the underrepresented, where they come from, because those differences in thought are the things that create new ideas that really innovate, that drive, those business transformations that drive the changes in the way that we do things. And so having that difference of opinion, having healthy ways to bring change and to have conflict, absolutely essential for progress to happen. >>So how did you get into the tech business? What was your background? >>So my background was actually, um, a lot in math and science. And both of my parents were engineers. And I have always had this unwavering, um, need to be able to marry business and the technology side and really figure out how you can create the art of the possible. So for me it was actually the creativity piece of it where you could create something from nothing that really drove me to computer science. >>Okay. So, so you're your math, uh, engineer and you ended up in CS, is that right? >>Science. Yeah. >>Okay. So you were coded. Did you ever work as a programmer? >>Absolutely. My, my first years at IBM were all about coding. Um, and so I've always had a career where I've coded and then I've gone to the field and done field work. I've come back and done development and development management, gone back to the field and kind of seen how that was actually working. So personally for me, being able to create and work with clients to understand how they drive value and having that back and forth has been a really delightful part. And the thing that drives me, >>you know, that's actually not an uncommon path for IBM. Ours, predominantly male IBM, or is in the 50 sixties and seventies and even eighties. Who took that path? They started out programming. Um, I just think, trying to think of some examples. I know Omar para, who was the CIO of Aetna international, he started out coding at IBM. Joe Tucci was a programmer at IBM. He became CEO of EMC. It was a very common path for people and you took the same path. That's kind of interesting. Why do you think, um, so many women who maybe maybe start in computer science and coding don't continue on that path? And what was it that sort of allowed you to break through that barrier? >>No, I'm not sure why most women don't stay with it. But for me, I think, um, you know, I, I think that every organization today is going to have to be technical in nature. I mean, just think about it for a moment. Technology impacts every part of every type of organization and the kinds of transformation that happens. So being more technical as leaders and really understanding the technology that allows the kinds of innovations and business for informations is absolutely essential to be able to see progress in a lot of what we're doing. So I think that even general CXOs that you see today have to be more technically acute to be able to do their jobs really well and marry those business outcomes with what it fundamentally means to have the right technology backbone. >>Do you think a woman in the white house would make a difference for young people? I mean, part of me says, yeah, of course it would. Then I say, okay, well some examples you can think about Margaret Thatcher in the UK, Angela Merkel, and in Germany it's still largely male dominated cultures, but I dunno, what do you think? Maybe maybe that in the United States would be sort of the, >>I'm not a political expert, so I wouldn't claim to answer that, but I do think more women in technology, leadership role, CXO leadership roles is absolutely what we need. So, you know, politics aside more women in leadership roles. Absolutely. >>Well, it's not politics is gender. I mean, I'm independent, Republican, Democrat, conservative, liberal, right? Absolutely. Oh yeah. Well, companies, politics. I mean you certainly see women leaders in a, in Congress and, and the like. Um, okay. Uh, last question. So you've got a program going on here. You have a, you have a panel that you're running. Tell us more about. >>Well this afternoon we'll be continuing that from women leaders in AI and we're going to do a panel with a few of our clients that really have transformed their organizations using data and artificial intelligence and they'll talk about like their backgrounds in history. So what does it actually mean to come from? One of, one of the panelists actually from Miami Dade has always come from a technical background and the other panelists really etched in from a non technical background because she had a passion for data and she had a passion for the technology systems. So we're going to go through, um, how these females actually came through to the journey, where they are right now, what they're actually doing with artificial intelligence in their organizations and what the future holds for them. >>I lied. I said, last question. What is, what is success for you? Cause I, I would love to help you achieve that. That objective isn't, is it some metric? Is it awareness? How do you know it when you see it? >>Well, I think it's a journey. Success is not an endpoint. And so for me, I think the biggest thing I've been able to do at IBM is really help organizations help businesses and people progress what they do with technology. There's nothing more gratifying than like when you can see other organizations and then what they can do, not just with your technology, but what you can bring in terms of expertise to make them successful, what you can do to help shape their culture and really transform. To me, that's probably the most gratifying thing. And as long as I can continue to do that and be able to get more acknowledgement of what it means to have the right diversity ingredients to do that, that success >>well Retika congratulations on your success. I mean, you've been an inspiration to a number of people. I remember when I first saw you, you were working in group and you're up on stage and say, wow, this person really knows her stuff. And then you've had a variety of different roles and I'm sure that success is going to continue. So thanks very much for coming on the cube. You're welcome. All right, keep it right there, buddy. We'll be back with our next guest right after this short break, we're here covering the IBM data in a AI form from Miami right back.

>> live from Boston, Massachusetts. It's the queue covering your red hat some twenty nineteen lots. You buy bread hat. >> We'LL come back. Live here on the Cube as we continue with the coverage here in Boston, Massachusetts at the Boston Convention and Exposition Center had Summit two thousand nineteen stew Minimum. John Wall's a big keynote night, By the way, we're looking forward to that. We have a preview of that coming up in our next segment. Also walled wall interviews tomorrow morning from a number of our keynote presenters tonight. But right now we're joined by Gunnar Hellickson, whose director product management for rela Red hat. Gunnar. Nice to see you, sir. Good to see you And Andrew. He cocks Whose director Product Management of insights at Red Hat. Andrew, how are you doing today? >> Doing great. Happy to be here. >> Show off to a good start for you guys. Everything good to go? >> Yeah, it's been great. Uh, I got a great response from customers. Great response from analysts. There was real excited about the really >> Andrew. Yeah, we've had overflow it. All of our sessions on its insights, the hosted service. It's also nice to go alive and not get any >> pages that it's all good there, right? Yeah. So on the rail laid side. Big announcement today, right? It's gone public now available. Ah, lot of excitement. A lot of buzz around that, and insights has been added to that. So what is that doing now for your kind of your your suite of services and what you are now concerned? Sure. Absolute more about than you were yesterday. Well, >> I think one of the benefits we've had and making this changes it can create a virtuous loop. So insights as a service works by looking at the data that we have from running environment and seeing what is successful in what is not successful. So by having a smaller group of customers were would deliver the service using a good experience, but has a number of customers increases. That means we can deliver more value because we have a better understanding of what the world looks so for us, even though we've had a really great growth rate, being able to accelerate that by putting it inside of the rail subscription means we're gonna have access even more opportunities. Teo, look. Att Customer data find new insights and deliver even more value to them. >> So, Gunnar, you know, analytics is a piece that I'm hoping you can explain to our audience some of the some of the new pieces. Yeah, that that should be looking at. >> Yeah, sure. So So, with the insights tool down available to rent enterprise, the next customers they are getting a sentry said, there's there's a virtuous loop right where the more people that use it, the smarter the system gets and the benefit for the end user is now they get. I like to think of it is coaching so often there are security fixes, their opportunities for performance tuning. There's configuration fixes you could make, which may not be immediately obvious unless you've read through all the manuals right on DSO. How much better is it that Andrew Service can now come into a real a real customer and say, Hey, have you noticed that you might want to make this performance fix or hey, you might have forgotten this. So security fixed and it really makes the day to day life for the administrator much easier on also allows them to scale and manage many more systems much more efficiently. >> Yeah, I'm curious. You know, there's certain people. Was like, Wait, no, I understand my environment. You know, I you know, am I up for sharing what I'm doing versus everyone else? What's that? Feedback? You know, you've been what are some of the kind of misperceptions you want to make sure people understand? You >> know >> what it is and what it isn't >> a customer. Talk to you too. Phrases a very funny way. He's like, Well, >> I don't need this from my team. Might you know those guys right out >> of my level? I think, actually, our customers, they feel the scale that they have to operate on. So they're managing a lot more stuff. But I think the real pressure, his line of business is expecting things faster. So if they can't turn around, then they're lined the business. They're going to go get technologies somewhere else. And so, for our customers, the ability to automate pieces of their work flow, including ensuring it too safe configuration. It's optimized. That's a really key things I've never actually heard someone say. I know what I'm. Why did once have one person say they know what they're doing? They didn't need our help. But I think everyone else, they they get the value of analytics. >> You brought up the word, you know, scale. It's, You know, I worked in operations for six years in the group I had is like, Okay, next quarter, next year, you're gonna have more to do or less to do. Are you going? More or less? Resource is we understand what the answer is for most of those. So if I can of automation, if I can't have you no smart tooling today, I'm not going to able to keep up. You know, we talk about at the core of digital transformation is data needs to drive what we're doing. Otherwise, you know you're going to be left behind. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's right. And so and so how graded it is to finally have. You know, for fifteen years we've been getting support. Ticket's been reading knowledge based articles. We've got all this technical expertise on this architectural expertise, and that's not always easy to deliver to customers, right? It's It's still, you know, we're self our company, so we could deliver them software. But it's that additional coaching, Ben, additional expertise is the kind of difficult to deliver without having a vehicle like insights available. >> So how does it in terms of let's, like, really, um, roll out the new product? Everyone's You know, it's hopefully being well, not. Hopefully it is being used right now, and now you start seeing hiccups in the system. You see some speed bumps along the way. What are you seeing holistically? That an individual user is not? Or what's the value, too, to gathering this concensus and providing Mia's maybe just a single user with an insight into my situation? >> Yeah, that's the way I'd like to think about it is if you're a customer and you have a critical issue, causes downtime and impact your business, that's that's really terrible, and you're probably gonna learn from that. You're not going to do the same thing again, at least hopefully. But the customer next door or your competitors next or partner next door. They don't generate that experience or learned from that experience, so I think of insights, his way of knowledge recapture. So something happens once in one place. The system acts as a hub for that information, so once we see that we can capture the information that was discovered at one customer site, and we can proactively alert all of our customers to avoid that scenario. So it really lets us re use knowledge that we're generating. It's Gunnar said. This expertise we're generating inside the company were already doing all these activities, but it lets us recapture that energy and sick it back out to the rest of our customers much more efficiently than we ever could before. >> And you can and you could deal what you deal went on one. So if I if I'm a unique or have a unique problem, you could help me identify that, then you keep it in a reservoir. Basically, that could be tapped into when other instances occur. And you could see we, you know, this happened. This particular situation occurred in this situation and boom. Here's the cause. Here's the proper. Here's the fix >> on everything we do with insights is totally so. We learned from different experiences, but it's totally Taylor to each environment, So it's not just like a whole bunch of knowledge based articles. It looks at exact configuration for each customer, not only verifies that they're really going to hit the issue, Not just they, you know they might or something, but they're really going to hit it, but also generates automation to fix the issue. So we generate custom Ansel playbooks, which is an automation language that red hat obviously is invested in, and our customers and community love that is specific to their environment. So they could go from discovery to fix in the safest and fastest way possible. >> Yeah, you went. I was. You know, I'm hearing automation and, of course, immediately think about answerable there. So see, it seems there is that tight integration. They just play across the other. How does that dynamic >> work? Sure, So insights is tightly integrated in the sense of think of, answerable his arms and legs like there. They can go do things for you. But that doesn't come with a brain, necessarily the brain is our customers, right? So instable, So easy to use that you can put in the hands of knowledge experts inside of different companies, and they can automate part of their job. Their TVs. That's fantastic. What we're doing with insights, though they say got the red hat brain as well, though And so we're going to connect the red at breaking in. And so we're using tools like answerable to help collect the information that we need to analyze environment and then tools like answerable to go resolve the issues once we've identified what's there? So we see there's is totally complementary pieces of the portfolio. >> So, God, we've been talking about customers about you on the inside. What are you getting out of this? Ultimately, in terms of product improvement and whatever it orations that you're going to bring on because of these insights that your gathering, how soon? You kind of hope you roll it out. Thanks. Fine. Okay. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Hope you don't get much from Andrew, but it's inevitable that, you know, there's going to be something that needs attention. >> Well, I mean, this is just part and parcel of regular product management practice, right? I mean, you look at your support tickets. You look at what customers are worried about. You look at what? The escalation czar, and that helps you. I think one change that we have gone through is thie. Analysis of all that activity has been largely anecdotal. like always remember the last and loudest person it was yelling at you, right? And this on tools like tools like insights allow us to be much more data driven as we're making different product management decisions. All >> right. Um, yes. So what should we be looking forward, Teo, give us a little bit of where things go from here? >> Sure. No good s o. You know, I think we'LL see the service generally. As I said, as we get more people connected, the service itself increases in quality in terms of recommendations in the breath of recommendations were also started to do some interesting worked. Open it up to partners. So so far, it's really been a red hat oriented Here's red hats knowledge. But it turns out that our partners want our stuff, their stuff, to run successfully on top of our platforms. That's a huge value for them. So, for example, way have nine new recommendations that will provide for sequel server when running on rally that we generated in partnership with Microsoft. And that's certainly the type of thing that we want to keep investing Maura and I think is really impactful for Custer. Um, because they see vendors actually working together to create a solution for them instead of us, just each doing our own thing in different ways. So that's one change that we're really excited about. >> Going forward. Yeah. You know, I think focusing on the focusing on the coaching for specific workloads is going to be really important. I mean, optimizing the operative system is great. I mean, your job rating system nor Adela fixing the operating system. But customers really had The opening system is an instrumental step towards actually operating something that that is critical of customers business. And so, to the extent that we can connect infrastructure providers, IVs and all the entire partner ecosystem, together with the indigenous operating system rules, we can give customers really very nice of you in a very nice set of, well, coaching on on their full stack of the planet. >> And that's the insight they're all looking for, right? Literally what they're looking for, gentlemen. Thank you. Thank you. The time we appreciate, uh, your time here today and good luck with continued pack sessions. That goes well for you. Both appreciate back with more where it read. Had summit where in Boston. And you are watching the Cube >> live from Boston, Massachusetts. It's the queue covering your red. Have some twenty nineteen. You buy bread? >> No, that on the ground. Get back a lot of commotion.

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE! Covering IBM Think 2018. Brought to you by IBM. >> Hello and I'm John Furrier. We're here in theCUBE studios at Think 2018, IBM Think 2018 in Mandalay Bay, in Las Vegas. We're extracting the signal from the noise, talking to all the executives, customers, thought leaders, inside the community of IBM and theCUBE. Our next guest is Ritika Gunnar who is the VP of Product for Watson and AI, cloud data platforms, all the goodness of the product side. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, great to be here again. >> So, we love talking to the product people because we want to know what the product strategy is. What's available, what's the hottest features. Obviously, we've been talking about, these are our words, Jenny introduced the innovation sandwich. >> Ritika: She did. >> The data's in the middle, and you have blockchain and AI on both sides of it. This is really the future. This is where they're going to see automation. This is where you're going to see efficiencies being created, inefficiencies being abstracted away. Obviously blockchain's got more of an infrastructure, futuristic piece to it. AI in play now, machine learning. You got Cloud underneath it all. How has the product morphed? What is the product today? We've heard of World of Watson in the past. You got Watson for this, you got Watson for IOT, You got Watson for this. What is the current offering? What's the product? Can you take a minute, just to explain what, semantically, it is? >> Sure. I'll start off by saying what is Watson? Watson is AI for smarter business. I want to start there. Because Watson is equal to how do we really get AI infused in our enterprise organizations and that is the core foundation of what Watson is. You heard a couple of announcements that the conference this week about what we're doing with Watson Studio, which is about providing that framework for what it means to infuse AI in our clients' applications. And you talked about machine learning. It's not just about machine learning anymore. It really is about how do we pair what machine learning is, which is about tweaking and tuning single algorithms, to what we're doing with deep learning. And that's one of the core components of what we're doing with Watson Studio is how do we make AI truly accessible. Not just machine learning but deep learning to be able to infuse those in our client environments really seamlessly and so the deep learning as a service piece of what we're doing in the studio was a big part of the announcements this week because deep learning allows our clients to really have it in a very accessible way. And there were a few things we announced with deep learning as a service. We said, look just like with predictive analytics we have capabilities that easily allow you to democratize that to knowledge workers and to business analysts by adding drag-and-drop capabilities. We can do the same thing with deep learning and deep learning capabilities. So we have taken a lot of things that have come from our research area and started putting those into the product to really bring about enterprise capabilities for deep learning but in a really de-skilled way. >> Yeah, and also to remind the folks, there's a platform involved here. Maybe you can say it's been re-platformed, I don't know. Maybe you can answer that. Has it been re-platformed or is it just the platformization of existing stuff? Because there's certainly demand. TensorFlow at Google showed that there's a demand for machine learning libraries and then deep learning behind. You got Amazon Web Services with Sagemaker, Touting. As a service model for AI, it's definitely in demand. So talk about the platform piece underneath. What is it? How does it get rendered? And then we'll come back and talk about the user consumption side. >> So it definitely is not a re-platformization. You recall what we have done with a focus initially on what we did on data science and what we did on machine learning. And the number one thing that we did was we were about supporting open-source and open frameworks. So it's not just one framework, like a TensorFlow framework, but it's about what we can do with TensorFlow, Keras, PyTorch, Caffe, and be able to use all of our builders' favorite open-source frameworks and be able to use that in a way where then we can add additional value on top of that and help them accelerate what it means to actually have that in the enterprise and what it means to actually de-skill that for the organization. So we started there. But really, if you look at where Watson has focused on the APIs and the API services, it's bringing together those capabilities of what we're doing with unstructured, pre-trained services, and then allowing clients to be able to bring together the structured and unstructured together on one platform, and adding the deep learning as a service capabilities, which is truly differentiating. >> Well, I think the important point there, just to amplify, and for the people to know is, it's not just your version of the tools for the data, you're looking at bringing data in from anywhere the customer, your customer wants it. And that's super critical. You don't want to ignore data. You can't. You got to have access to the data that matters. >> Yeah, you know, I think one of the other critical pieces that we're talking about here is, data without AI is meaningless and AI without data is really not useful or very accurate. So, having both of them in a yin yang and then bringing them together as we're doing in the Watson Studio is extremely important. >> The other thing I want get now to the user side, the consumption side you mentioned making it easier, but one of the things we've been hearing, that's been a theme in the hallways and certainly in theCUBE here is; bad data equals bad AI. >> Bad data equals bad AI. >> It's not just about bolting a AI on, you really got to take a holistic approach and a hygiene approach to the data and understanding where the data is contextually is relevant to the application. Talk about, that means kind of nuance, but break that down. What's your reaction to that and how do you talk to customers saying, okay look you want to do AI here's the playbook. How do you explain that in a very simple way? >> Well you heard of the AI ladder, making your data ready for AI. This is a really important concept because you need to be able to have trust in the data that you have, relevancy in the data that you have, and so it is about not just the connectivity to that data, but can you start having curated and rich data that is really valuable, that's accurate that you can trust, that you can leverage. It becomes not just about the data, but about the governance and the self-service capabilities that you can have and around that data and then it is about the machine learning and the deep learning characteristics that you can put on there. But, all three of those components are absolutely essential. What we're seeing it's not even about the data that you have within the firewall of your organization, it's about what you're doing to really augment that with external data. That's another area that we're having pre-trained, enriched, data sets with what we're doing with the Wats and data kits is extremely important; industry specific data. >> Well you know my pet peeve is always I love data. I'm a data geek, I love innovation, I love data driven, but you can't have data without good human interaction. The human component is critical and certainly with seeing trends where startups like Elation that we've interviewed; are taking this social approach to data where they're looking at it like you don't need to be a data geek or data scientist. The average business person's creating the value in especially blockchain, we were just talking in theCUBE that it's the business model Innovations, it's universal property and the technology can be enabled and managed appropriately. This is where the value is. What's the human component? Is there like... You want to know who's using the data? >> Well-- >> Why are they using data? It's like do I share the data? Can you leverage other people's data? This is kind of a melting pot. >> It is. >> What's the human piece of it? >> It truly is about enabling more people access to what it means to infuse AI into their organization. When I said it's not about re-platforming, but it's about expanding. We started with the data scientists, and we're adding to that the application developer. The third piece of that is, how do you get the knowledge worker? The subject matter expert? The person who understand the actual machine, or equipment that needs to be inspected. How do you get them to start customizing models without having to know anything about the data science element? That's extremely important because I can auto-tag and auto-classify stuff and use AI to get them started, but there is that human element of not needing to be a data scientist, but still having input into that AI and that's a very beautiful thing. >> You know it's interesting is in the security industry you've seen groups; birds of a feather flock together, where they share hats and it's a super important community aspect of it. Data has now, and now with AI, you get the AI ladder, but this points to AI literacy within the organizations. >> Exactly. >> So you're seeing people saying, hey we need AI literacy. Not coding per se, but how do we manage data? But it's also understanding who within your peer group is evolving. So your seeing now a whole formation of user base out there, users who want to know who their; the birds of the other feather flocking together. This is now a social gamification opportunity because they're growing together. >> There're-- >> What's your thought on that? >> There're two things there I would say. First, is we often go to the technology and as a product person I just spoke to you a lot about the technology. But, what we find in talking to our clients, is that it really is about helping them with the skills, the culture, the process transformation that needs to happen within the organization to break down the boundaries and the silos exist to truly get AI into an organization. That's the first thing. The second, is when you think about AI and what it means to actually infuse AI into an enterprise organization there's an ethics component of this. There's ethics and bias, and bias components which you need to mitigate and detect, and those are real problems and by the way IBM, especially with the work that we're doing within Watson, with the work that we're doing in research, we're taking this on front and center and it's extremely important to what we do. >> You guys used to talk about that as cognitive, but I think you're so right on. I think this is such a progressive topic, love to do a deeper dive on it, but really you nailed it. Data has to have a consensus algorithm built into it. Meaning you need to have, that's why I brought up this social dynamic, because I'm seeing people within organizations address regulatory issues, legal issues, ethical, societal issues all together and it requires a group. >> That's right. >> Not just algorithm, people to synthesize. >> Exactly. >> And that's either diversity, diverse groups from different places and experiences whether it's an expert here, user there; all coming together. This is not really talked about much. How are you guys-- >> I think it will be more. >> John: It will, you think so? >> Absolutely it will be more. >> What do you see from customers? You've done a lot of client meetings. Are they talking about this? Or they still more in the how do I stand up AI, literacy. >> They are starting to talk about it because look, imagine if you train your model on bad data. You actually have bias then in your model and that means that the accuracy of that model is not where you need it to be if your going to run it in an enterprise organization. So, being able to do things like detect it and proactively mitigate it are at the forefront and by the way this where our teams are really focusing on what we can do to further the AI practice in the enterprise and it is where we really believe that the ethics part of this is so important for that enterprise or smarter business component. >> Iterating through the quality the data's really good. Okay, so now I was talking to Rob Thomas talking about data containers. We were kind of nerding out on Kubernetes and all that good stuff. You almost imagine Kubernetes and containers making data really easy to move around and manage effectively with software, but I mentioned consensus on the understanding the quality of the data and understanding the impact of the data. When you say consensus, the first thing that jumps in my mind is blockchain, cryptocurrency. Is there a tokenization economics model in data somewhere? Because all the best stuff going on in blockchain and cryptocurrency that's technically more impactful is the changing of the economics. Changing of the technical architectures. You almost can say, hmm. >> You can actually see over a time that there is a business model that puts more value not just on the data and the data assets themselves, but on the models and the insights that are actually created from the AI assets themselves. I do believe that is a transformation just like what we're seeing in blockchain and the type of cryptocurrency that exists within there, and the kind of where the value is. We will see the same shift within data and AI. >> Well, you know, we're really interested in exploring and if you guys have any input to that we'd love to get more access to thought leaders around the relationship people and things have to data. Obviously the internet of things is one piece, but the human relationship the data. You're seeing it play out in real time. Uber had a first death this week, that was tragic. First self-driving car fatality. You're seeing Facebook really get handed huge negative press on the fact that they mismanaged the data that was optimized for advertising not user experience. You're starting to see a shift in an evolution where people are starting to recognize the role of the human and their data and other people's data. This is a big topic. >> It's a huge topic and I think we'll see a lot more from it and the weeks, and months, and years ahead on this. I think it becomes a really important point as to how we start to really innovate in and around not just the data, but the AI we apply to it and then the implications of it and what it means in terms of if the data's not right, if the algorithm's aren't right, if the biases is there. It is big implications for society and for the environment as a whole. >> I really appreciate you taking the time to speak with us. I know you're super busy. My final question's much more share some color commentary on IBM Think this week, the event, your reaction to, obviously it's massive, and also the customer conversations you've had. You've told me that your in client briefings and meetings. What are they talking about? What are they asking for? What are some of the things that are, low-hanging fruit use cases? Where's the starting point? Where are people jumping in? Can you just share any data you have on-- >> Oh I can share. That's a fully loaded question; that's like 10 questions all in one. But the Think conference has been great in terms of when you think about the problems that we're trying to solve with AI, it's not AI alone, right? It actually is integrated in with things like data, with the systems, with how we actually integrate that in terms of a hybrid way of what we're doing on premises and what we're doing in private Cloud, what we're doing in public Cloud. So, actually having a forum where we're talking about all of that together in a unified manner has actually been great feedback that I've heard from many customers, many analysts, and in general from an IBM perspective, I believe has been extremely valuable. I think the types of questions that I'm hearing and the types of inputs and conversations we're having, are one of where clients want to be able to innovate and really do things that are in Horizon three type things. What are the things they should be doing in Horizon one, Horizon two, and Horizon three when it comes to AI and when it comes to AI and how they treat their data. This is really important because-- >> What's Horizon one, two and three? >> You think about Horizon one, those are things you should be doing immediately to get immediate value in your business. Horizon two, are kind of mid-term, 18 to 24. 24 plus months out is Horizon 3. So when you think about an AI journey, what is your AI journey really look like in terms of what you should be doing in the immediate terms. Small, quick wins. >> Foundational. >> What are things that you can do kind of projects that will pan out in a year and what are the two to three year projects that we should be doing. This are the most frequent conversations that I've been having with a lot of our clients in terms of what is that AI journey we should be thinking about, what are the projects right now, how do we work with you on the projects right now on H1 and H2. What are the things we can start incubating that are longer term. And these extremely transformational in nature. It's kind of like what do we do to really automate self-driving, not just cars, but what we do for trains and we do to do really revolutionize certain industries and professions. >> How does your product roadmap to your Horizons? Can you share a little bit about the priorities on the roadmap? I know you don't want to share a lot of data, competitive information. But, can you give an antidotal or at least a trajectory of what the priorities are and some guiding principals? >> I hinted at some of it, but I only talked about the Studio, right... During this discussion, but still Studio is just one of a three-pronged approach that we have in Watson. The Studio really is about laying the foundation that is equivalent for how do we get AI in our enterprises for the builders, and it's like a place where builders go to be able to create, build, deploy those models, machine learning, deep learning models and be able to do so in a de-skilled way. Well, on top of that, as you know, we've done thousands of engagements and we know the most comprehensive ways that clients are trying to use Watson and AI in their organizations. So taking our learnings from that, we're starting to harden those in applications so that clients can easily infuse that into their businesses. We have capabilities for things like Watson Assistance, which was announced this week at the conference that really helped clients with pre-existing skills like how do you have a customer care solution, but then how can you extend it to other industries like automotive, or hospitality, or retail. So, we're working not just within Watson but within broader IBM to bring solutions like that. We also have talked about compliance. Every organization has a regulatory, or compliance, or legal department that deals with either SOWs, legal documents, technical documents. How do you then start making sure that you're adhering to the types of regulations or legal requirements that you have on those documents. Compare and comply actually uses a lot of the Watson technologies to be able to do that. And scaling this out in terms of how clients are really using the AI in their business is the other point of where Watson will absolutely focus going forward. >> That's awesome, Ritika. Thank you for coming on theCUBE, sharing the awesome work and again gutting across IBM and also outside in the industry. The more data the better the potential. >> Absolutely. >> Well thanks for sharing the data. We're putting the data out there for you. theCUBE is one big data machine, we're data driven. We love doing these interviews, of course getting the experts and the product folks on theCUBE is super important to us. I'm John Furrier, more coverage for IBM Think after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From San Jose, in the heart of Silicon Valley, it's The Cube, covering Big Data SV 2016. Now your hosts, John Furrier and Peter Burris. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. We are here live in Silicon Valley for Big Data Week, Big Data SV Strata Hadoop. This is The Cube, SiliconANGLE's flagship program. We go out to the events and extract the signals from the noise. I'm John Furrier, my co-host is Peter Burris. Our next guest is Ritika Gunnar, VP of Data and Analytics at IBM and David Richards is the CEO of WANdisco. Welcome to The Cube, welcome back. >> Thank you. >> It's a pleasure to be here. >> So, okay, IBM and WANdisco, why are you guys here? What are you guys talking about? Obviously, partnership. What's the story? >> So, you know what WANdisco does, right? Data replication, active-active replication of data. For the past twelve months, we've been realigning our products to a market that we could see rapidly evolving. So if you had asked me twelve months ago what we did, we were talking about replicating just Hadoop, but we think the market is going to be a lot more than that. I think Mike Olson famously said that this Hadoop was going to disappear and he was kind of right because the ecosystem is evolving to be a much greater stack that involves applications, cloud, completely heterogeneous storage environment, and as that happens the partnerships that we would need have to move on from just being, you know, the sort of Hadoop-specific distribution vendors to actually something that can deliver a complete solution to the marketplace. And very clearly, IBM has a massive advantage in the number of people, the services, ecosystem, infrastructure, in order to deliver a complete solution to customers, so that's really why we're here. >> If you could talk about the stack comment, because this is something that we're seeing. Mike Olson's kind of being political when he says make it invisible, but the reality is there is more to big data than Hadoop. There's a lot of other stuff going on. Call it stack, call it ecosystem. A lot of great things are growing, we just had Gaurav on from SnapLogic said, "everyone's winning." I mean, I just love that's totally true, but it's not just Hadoop. >> It's about Alldata and it's about all insight on that data. So when you think about Alldata, Alldata is a very powerful thing. If you look at what clients have been trying to do thus far, they've actually been confined to the data that may be in their operational systems. With the advent of Hadoop, they're starting to bring in some structured and unstructured data, but with the advent of IOT systems, systems of engagement, systems of records and trying to make sense of all of that, Alldata is a pretty powerful thing. When I think of Alldata, I think of three things. I think of data that is not only on premises, which is where a lot of data resides today, but data that's in the cloud, where data is being generated today and where a majority of the growth is. When I think of Alldata, I think of structured data, that is in your traditional operational systems, unstructured and semi-structured data from IOT systems et cetera, and when I think of Alldata, I think of not just data that's on premises for a lot of our clients, but actually external data. Data where we can correlate data with, for example, an acquisition that we just did within IBM with The Weather Company or augmenting with partnerships like Twitter, et cetera, to be able to extract insight from not just the data that resides within the walls of your organization, but external data as well. >> The old expression is if you want to go fast, do it alone, if you want to go deeper and broader and more comprehensive, do it as a team. >> That's right. >> That expression can be applied to data. And you look at The Weather data, you think, hmmm, that's an outlier type acquisition, but when you think about the diversity of data, that becomes a really big deal. And the question I want to ask you guys is, and Ritika, we'll start with you, there's always a few pressure points we've seen in big data. When that pressure is relieved, you've seen growth, and one was big data analytics kind of stalled a little bit, the winds kind of shifted, eye of the storm, whatever you want to call it, then cloud comes in. Cloud is kind of enabling that to go faster. Now, a new pressure point that we're seeing is go faster with digital transformation. So Alldata kind of brings us to all digital. And I know IBM is all about digitizing everything and that's kind of the vision. So you now have the pressure of I want all digital, I need data driven at the center of it, and I've got the cloud resource, so kind of the perfect storm. What's your thoughts on that? Do you see that similar picture? And then does that put the pressure on, say, WANdisco, say hey, I need replication, so now you're under the hood? Is that kind of where this is coming together? >> Absolutely. When I think about it, it's about giving trusted data and insights to everyone within the organization, at the speed in which they need it. So when you think about that last comment of, "At the speed in which they need it," that is the pressure point of what it means to have a digitally transformed business. That means being able to make insights and decisions immediately and when we look at what our objective is from an IBM perspective, it's to be able to enable our clients to be able to generate those immediate insights, to be able to transform their business models and to be able to provide the tooling and the skills necessary, whether we have it organically, inorganically, or through partnerships, like with WANdisco to be able to do that. And so with WANdisco, we believe we really wanted to be able to activate where that data resides. When I talk about Alldata and activation of that data, WANdisco provided to us complementary capabilities to be able to activate that data where it resides with a lot of the capabilities that they're providing through their fusion. So, being able to have and enable our end-users to have that digitally infused set of reactive type of applications is absolutely something... >> It's like David, we talk about, and maybe I'm oversimplifying your value proposition, but I always look at WANdisco as kind of the five nines of data, right? You guys make stuff work, and that's the theme here this year, people just want it to work, right? They don't want to have it down, right? >> Yeah, we're seeing, certainly, an uptick in understanding about what high availability, what continuous availability means in the context of Hadoop, and I'm sure we'll be announcing some pretty big deals moving forward. But we've only just got going with IBM. I would, the market should expect a number of announcements moving forward as we get going with this, but here's the very interesting question associated with cloud. And just to give you a couple of quick examples, we are seeing an increasing number of Global 1,000 companies, Fortune 100 companies move to cloud. And that's really important. If you would have asked me 12 months ago, how is the market going to shape up, I'd have said, well, most CIO's want to move to cloud. It's already happening. So, FINRA, the major financial regulator in the United States is moving to cloud, publicly announced it. The FCA in the UK publicly announced they are moving 100% to cloud. So this creates kind of a microcosm of a problem that we solve, which is how do you move transactional data from on-premise to cloud and create a sort of hybrid environment. Because with the migration, you have to build a hybrid cloud in order to do that anyway. So, if it's just archive systems, you can package it on a disk drive and post it, right? If we're talking about transactional data, i.e, stuff that you want to use, so for example, a big travel company can't stop booking flights while they move their data into the cloud, right? They would take six months to move petabyte scale data into cloud. We solve that problem. We enable companies to move transactional data from on-premise into cloud, without any interruption to services. >> So not six months? >> No, not six months. >> Six hours? >> And you can keep on using the data while it is in transit. So we've been looking for a really simplistic problem, right, to explain this really complex algorithm that we've got that you know does this active-active replication stuff. That's it, right? It's so simple, and nobody else can do it. >> So no downtime, no disruption to their business? >> No, and you can use the cloud or you can use the on-prem applications while the data is in transit. >> So when you say all cloud, now we're on a theme, Alldata, all digital, all cloud, there's a nuance there because most, and we had Gaurav from SnapLogic talk about it, there's always going to be an on-prem component. I mean, probably not going to see 100% everyone move to the cloud, public cloud, but cloud, you mean hybrid cloud essentially, with some on-prem component. I'm sure you guys see that with Bluemix as well, that you've got some dabbling in the public cloud, but ultimately, it's one resource pool. That's essentially what you're saying. >> Yeah, exactly. >> And I think it's really important. One of the things that's very attractive e about the WANdisco solution is that it does provide that hybridness from the on-premises to cloud and that being able to activate that data where it resides, but being able to do that in a heterogeneous fashion. Architectures are very different in the cloud than they are on premises. When you look at it, your data like may be as simple as Swift object store or as S3, and you may be using elements of Hadoop in there, but the architectures are changing. So the notion of being able to handle hybrid solutions both on-premises and cloud with the heterogeneous capability in a non-invasive way that provides continuous data is something that is not easily achieved, but it's something that every enterprise needs to take into account. >> So Ritika, talk about the why the WANdisco partnership, and specifically, what are some of the conversations you have with customers? Because, obviously there's, it sounds like, the need to go faster and have some of this replication active-active and kind of, five nines if you will, of making stuff not go down or non-disruptive operations or whatever the buzzword is, but you know, what's the motivation from your standpoint? Because IBM is very customer-centric. What are some of the conversations and then how does WANdisco fit into those conversations? >> So when you look at the top three use cases that most clients use for even Hadoop environments or just what's going on in the market today, the top three use cases are you know, can I build a logical data warehouse? Can I build areas for discovery or analytical discovery? Can I build areas to be able to have data archiving? And those top three solutions in a hybrid heterogeneous environment, you need to be able to have active-active access to the data where that data resides. And therefore, we believe, from an IBM perspective, that we want to be able to provide the best of breed regardless of where that resides. And so we believe from a WANdisco perspective, that WANdisco has those capabilities that are very complementary to what we need for that broader skills and tooling ecosystem and hence why we have formed this partnership. >> Unbelievably, in the market, we're also seeing and it feels like the Hadoop market's just got going, but we're seeing migrations from distributions like Cloudera into cloud. So you know, those sort of lab environments, the small clusters that were being set up. I know this is slightly controversial, and I'll probably get darts thrown at me by Mike Olson, but we are seeing pretty large-scale migration from those sort of labs that were set up initially. And as they progress, and as it becomes mission-critical, they're going to go to companies like IBM, really, aren't they, in order to scale up their infrastructure? They're going to move the data into cloud to get hyperscale. For some of these cases that Ritika was just talking about so we are seeing a lot of those migrations. >> So basically, Hadoop, there's some silo deployments of POC's that need to be integrated in. Is that what you're referring to? I mean, why would someone do that? They would say okay, probably integration costs, probably other solutions, data. >> If you do a roll-your-own approach, where you go and get some open-source software, you've got to go and buy servers, you've got to go and train staff. We've just seen one of our customers, a big bank, two years later get servers. Two years to get servers, to get server infrastructure. That's a pretty big barrier, a practical barrier to entry. Versus, you know, I can throw something up in Bluemix in 30 minutes. >> David, you bring up a good point, and I want to just expand on that because you have a unique history. We know each other, we go way back. You were on The Cube when, I think we first started seven years ago at Hadoop World. You've seen the evolution and heck, you had your own distribution at one point. So you know, you've successfully navigated the waters of this ecosystem and you had gray IP and then you kind of found your swim lanes and you guys are doing great, but I want to get your perspective on this because you mentioned Cloudera. You've seen how it's evolving as it goes mainstream, as you know, Peter says, "The big guys are coming in and with power." I mean, IBM's got a huge spark investment and it's not just you know, lip service, they're actually donating a ton of code and actually building stuff so, you've got an evolutionary change happening within the industry. What's your take on the upstarts like Cloudera and Hortonworks and the Dishrow game? Because that now becomes an interesting dynamic because it has to integrate well. >> I think there will always be a market for the distribution of opensource software. As that sort of, that layer in the stack, you know, certainly Cloudera, Hortonworks, et cetera, are doing a pretty decent job of providing a distribution. The Hadoop marketplace, and Ritika laid this on pretty thick as well, is not Hadoop. Hadoop is a component of it, but in cloud we talk about object store technology, we talk about Swift, we talk about S3. We talk about Spark, which can be run stand-alone, you don't necessarily need Hadoop underneath it. So the marketplace is being stretched to such a point that if you were to look at the percentage of the revenue that's generated from Hadoop, it's probably less than one percent. I talked 12 months ago with you about the whale season, the whales are coming. >> Yeah, they're here. >> And they're here right now, I mean... >> (laughs) They're mating out in the water, deals are getting done. >> I'm not going to deal with that visual right now, but you're quite right. And I love the Peter Drucker quote which is, "Strategy is a commodity, execution is an art." We're now moving into the execution phase. You need a big company in order to do that. You can't be a five hundred or a thousand person... >> Is Cloudera holding onto dogma with Hadoop or do they realize that the ecosystem is building around them? >> I think they do because they're focused on the application layer, but there's a lot of competition in the application layer. There's a little company called IBM, there's a little company called Microsoft and the little company called Amazon that are kind of focused on that as well, so that's a pretty competitive environment and your ability to execute is really determined by the size of the organization to be quite frank. >> Awesome, well, so we have Hadoop Summit coming up in Dublin. We're going to be in Ireland next month for Hadoop Summit with more and more coverage there. Guys, thanks for the insight. Congratulations on the relationship and again, WANdisco, we know you guys and know what you guys have done. This seems like a prime time for you right now. And IBM, we just covered you guys at InterConnect. Great event. Love The Weather Company data, as a weather geek, but also the Apple announcement was really significant. Having Apple up on stage with IBM, I think that is really, really compelling. And that was just not a Barney deal, that was real. And the fact that Apple was on stage was a real testament to the direction you guys are going, so congratulations. This is The Cube, bringing you all the action, here live in Silicon Valley here for Big Data Week, BigData SV, and Strata Hadoop. We'll be right back with more after this short break.

(bright music) >> Okay, we're back in theCUBE. We said we were signing off for the night, but during the hallway track, we ran into old friend Stu Miniman who was the Director of Market Insights at Red Hat. Stu, friend of theCUBE done the thousands of CUBE interviews. >> Dave, it's great to be here. Thanks for pulling me on, you and I hosted Red Hat Summit before. It's great to see Paul here. I was actually, I was talking to some of the Red Hatters walking around Boston. It's great to have an event here. Boston's got strong presence and I understand, I think was either first or second year, they had it over... What's the building they're tearing down right down the road here. Was that the World Trade Center? I think that's where they actually held it, the first time they were here. We hosted theCUBE >> So they moved up. >> at the Hines Convention Center. We did theCUBE for summit at the BCEC next door. And of course, with the pandemic being what it was, we're a little smaller, nice intimate event here. It's great to be able to room the hall, see a whole bunch of people and lots watching online. >> It's great, it's around the same size as those, remember those Vertica Big Data events that we used to have here. And I like that you were commenting out at the theater and the around this morning for the keynotes, that was good. And the keynotes being compressed, I think, is real value for the attendees, you know? 'Cause people come to these events, they want to see each other, you know? They want to... It's like the band getting back together. And so when you're stuck in the keynote room, it's like, "Oh, it's okay, it's time to go." >> I don't know that any of us used to sitting at home where I could just click to another tab or pause it or run for, do something for the family, or a quick bio break. It's the three-hour keynote I hope has been retired. >> But it's an interesting point though, that the virtual event really is driving the physical and this, the way Red Hat marketed this event was very much around the virtual attendee. Physical was almost an afterthought, so. >> Right, this is an invite only for in-person. So you're absolutely right. It's optimizing the things that are being streamed, the online audience is the big audience. And we just happy to be in here to clap and do some things see around what you're doing. >> Wonderful see that becoming the norm. >> I think like virtual Stu, you know this well when virtual first came in, nobody had a clue with what they were doing. It was really hard. They tried different things, they tried to take the physical and just jam it into the virtual. That didn't work, they tried doing fun things. They would bring in a famous person or a comedian. And that kind of worked, I guess, but everybody showed up for that and then left. And I think they're trying to figure it out what this hybrid thing is. I've seen it both ways. I've seen situations like this, where they're really sensitive to the virtual. I've seen others where that's the FOMO of the physical, people want physical. So, yeah, I think it depends. I mean, reinvent last year was heavy physical. >> Yeah, with 15,000 people there. >> Pretty long keynotes, you know? So maybe Amazon can get away with it, but I think most companies aren't going to be able to. So what is the market telling you? What are these insights? >> So Dave just talking about Amazon, obviously, the world I live in cloud and that discussion of cloud, the journey that customers are going on is where we're spending a lot of the discussions. So, it was great to hear in the keynote, talked about our deep partnerships with the cloud providers and what we're doing to help people with, you like to call it super cloud, some call it hybrid, or multi-cloud... >> New name. (crosstalk) Meta-Cloud, come on. >> All right, you know if Che's my executive, so it's wonderful. >> Love it. >> But we'll see, if I could put on my VR Goggles and that will help me move things. But I love like the partnership announcement with General Motors today because not every company has the needs of software driven electric vehicles all over the place. But the technology that we build for them actually has ramifications everywhere. We've working to take Kubernetes and make it smaller over time. So things that we do at the edge benefit the cloud, benefit what we do in the data center, it's that advancement of science and technology just lifts all boats. >> So what's your take on all this? The EV and software on wheels. I mean, Tesla obviously has a huge lead. It's kind of like the Amazon of vehicles, right? It's sort of inspired a whole new wave of innovation. Now you've got every automobile manufacturer kind of go and after. That is the future of vehicles is something you followed or something you have an opinion on Stu? >> Absolutely. It's driving innovation in some ways, the way the DOS drove innovation on the desktop, if you remember the 64K DOS limit, for years, that was... The software developers came up with some amazing ways to work within that 64K limit. Then when it was gone, we got bloatware, but it actually does enforce a level of discipline on you to try to figure out how to make software run better, run more efficiently. And that has upstream impacts on the enterprise products. >> Well, right. So following your analogy, you talk about the enablement to the desktop, Linux was a huge influence on allowing the individual person to write code and write software, and what's happening in the EV, it's software platform. All of these innovations that we're seeing across industries, it's how is software transforming things. We go back to the mark end reasons, software's eating the world, open source is the way that software is developed. Who's at the intersection of all those? We think we have a nice part to play in that. I loved tha- Dave, I don't know if you caught at the end of the keynote, Matt Hicks basically said, "Our mission isn't just to write enterprise software. "Our mission is based off of open source because open source unlocks innovation for the world." And that's one of the things that drew me to Red Hat, it's not just tech in good places, but allowing underrepresented, different countries to participate in what's happening with software. And we can all move that ball forward. >> Well, can we declare victory for open source because it's not just open source products, but everything that's developed today, whether proprietary or open has open source in it. >> Paul, I agree. Open source is the development model period, today. Are there some places that there's proprietary? Absolutely. But I had a discussion with Deepak Singh who's been on theCUBE many times. He said like, our default is, we start with open source code. I mean, even Amazon when you start talking about that. >> I said this, the $70 billion business on open source. >> Exactly. >> Necessarily give it back, but that say, Hey, this is... All's fair in tech and more. >> It is interesting how the managed service model has sort of rescued open source, open source companies, that were trying to do the Red Hat model. No one's ever really successfully duplicated the Red Hat model. A lot of companies were floundering and failing. And then the managed service option came along. And so now they're all cloud service providers. >> So the only thing I'd say is that there are some other peers we have in the industry that are built off open source they're doing okay. The recent example, GitLab and Hashicorp, both went public. Hashi is doing some managed services, but it's not the majority of their product. Look at a company like Mongo, they've heavily pivoted toward the managed service. It is where we see the largest growth in our area. The products that we have again with Amazon, with Microsoft, huge growth, lots of interest. It's one of the things I spend most of my time talking on. >> I think Databricks is another interesting example 'cause Cloudera was the now company and they had the sort of open core, and then they had the proprietary piece, and they've obviously didn't work. Databricks when they developed Spark out of Berkeley, everybody thought they were going to do kind of a similar model. Instead, they went for all in managed services. And it's really worked well, I think they were ahead of that curve and you're seeing it now is it's what customers want. >> Well, I mean, Dave, you cover the database market pretty heavily. How many different open source database options are there today? And that's one of the things we're solving. When you look at what is Red Hat doing in the cloud? Okay, I've got lots of databases. Well, we have something called, it's Red Hat Open Database Access, which is from a developer, I don't want to have to think about, I've got six different databases, which one, where's the repository? How does all that happen? We give that consistency, it's tied into OpenShift, so it can help abstract some of those pieces. we've got same Kafka streaming and we've got APIs. So it's frameworks and enablers to help bridge that gap between the complexity that's out there, in the cloud and for the developer tool chain. >> That's really important role you guys play though because you had this proliferation, you mentioned Mongo. So many others, Presto and Starbursts, et cetera, so many other open source options out there now. And companies, developers want to work with multiple databases within the same application. And you have a role in making that easy. >> Yeah, so and that is, if you talk about the question I get all the time is, what's next for Kubernetes? Dave, you and I did a preview for KubeCon and it's automation and simplicity that we need to be. It's not enough to just say, "Hey, we've got APIs." It's like Dave, we used to say, "We've got standards? Great." Everybody's implementation was a little bit different. So we have API Sprawl today. So it's building that ecosystem. You've been talking to a number of our partners. We are very active in the community and trying to do things that can lift up the community, help the developers, help that cloud native ecosystem, help our customers move faster. >> Yeah API's better than scripts, but they got to be managed, right? So, and that's really what you guys are doing that's different. You're not trying to own everything, right? It's sort of antithetical to how billions and trillions are made in the IT industry. >> I remember a few years ago we talked here, and you look at the size that Red Hat is. And the question is, could Red Hat have monetized more if the model was a little different? It's like, well maybe, but that's not the why. I love that they actually had Simon Sinek come in and work with Red Hat and that open, unlocks the world. Like that's the core, it's the why. When I join, they're like, here's a book of Red Hat, you can get it online and that why of what we do, so we never have to think of how do we get there. We did an acquisition in the security space a year ago, StackRox, took us a year, it's open source. Stackrox.io, it's community driven, open source project there because we could have said, "Oh, well, yeah, it's kind of open source and there's pieces that are open source, but we want it to be fully open source." You just talked to Gunnar about how he's RHEL nine, based off CentOS stream, and now developing out in the open with that model, so. >> Well, you were always a big fan of Whitehurst culture book, right? It makes a difference. >> The open organization and right, Red Hat? That culture is special. It's definitely interesting. So first of all, most companies are built with the hierarchy in mind. Had a friend of mine that when he joined Red Hat, he's like, I don't understand, it's almost like you have like lots of individual contractors, all doing their things 'cause Red Hat works on thousands of projects. But I remember talking to Rackspace years ago when OpenStack was a thing and they're like, "How do you figure out what to work on?" "Oh, well we hired great people and they work on what's important to them." And I'm like, "That doesn't sound like a business." And he is like, "Well, we struggle sometimes to that balance." Red Hat has found that balance because we work on a lot of different projects and there are people inside Red Hat that are, you know, they care more about the project than they do the business, but there's the overall view as to where we participate and where we productize because we're not creating IP because it's all an open source. So it's the monetizations, the relationships we have our customers, the ecosystems that we build. And so that is special. And I'll tell you that my line has been Red Hat on the inside is even more Red Hat. The debates and the discussions are brutal. I mean, technical people tearing things apart, questioning things and you can't be thin skinned. And the other thing is, what's great is new people. I've talked to so many people that started at Red Hat as interns and will stay for seven, eight years. And they come there and they have as much of a seat at the table, and when I talk to new people, your job, is if you don't understand something or you think we might be able to do it differently, you better speak up because we want your opinion and we'll take that, everybody takes that into consideration. It's not like, does the decision go all the way up to this executive? And it's like, no, it's done more at the team. >> The cultural contrast between that and your parent, IBM, couldn't be more dramatic. And we talked earlier with Paul Cormier about has IBM really walked the walk when it comes to leaving Red Hat alone. Naturally he said, "Yes." Well what's your perspective. >> Yeah, are there some big blue people across the street or something I heard that did this event, but look, do we interact with IBM? Of course. One of the reasons that IBM and IBM Services, both products and services should be able to help get us breadth in the marketplace. There are times that we go arm and arm into customer meetings and there are times that customers tell us, "I like Red Hat, I don't like IBM." And there's other ones that have been like, "Well, I'm a long time IBM, I'm not sure about Red Hat." And we have to be able to meet all of those customers where they are. But from my standpoint, I've got a Red Hat badge, I've got a Red Hat email, I've got Red Hat benefits. So we are fiercely independent. And you know, Paul, we've done blogs and there's lots of articles been written is, Red Hat will stay Red Hat. I didn't happen to catch Arvin I know was on CNBC today and talking at their event, but I'm sure Red Hat got mentioned, but... >> Well, he talks about Red Hat all time. >> But in his call he's talking backwards. >> It's interesting that he's not here, greeting this audience, right? It's again, almost by design, right? >> But maybe that's supposed to be... >> Hundreds of yards away. >> And one of the questions being in the cloud group is I'm not out pitching IBM Cloud, you know? If a customer comes to me and asks about, we have a deep partnership and IBM will be happy to tell you about our integrations, as opposed to, I'm happy to go into a deep discussion of what we're doing with Google, Amazon, and Microsoft. So that's how we do it. It's very different Dave, from you and I watch really closely the VMware-EMC, VMware-Dell, and how that relationship. This one is different. We are owned by IBM, but we mostly, it does IBM fund initiatives and have certain strategic things that are done, absolutely. But we maintain Red Hat. >> But there are similarities. I mean, VMware crowd didn't want to talk about EMC, but they had to, they were kind of forced to. Whereas, you're not being forced to. >> And then once Dell came in there, it was joint product development. >> I always thought a spin in. Would've been the more effective, of course, Michael Dell and Egon wouldn't have gotten their $40 billion out. But I think a spin in was more natural based on where they were going. And it would've been, I think, a more dominant position in the marketplace. They would've had more software, but again, financially it wouldn't have made as much sense, but that whole dynamic is different. I mean, but people said they were going to look at VMware as a model and it's been largely different because remember, VMware of course was a separate company, now is a fully separate company. Red Hat was integrated, we thought, okay, are they going to get blue washed? We're watching and watching, and watching, you had said, well, if the Red Hat culture isn't permeating IBM, then it's a failure. And I don't know if that's happening, but it's definitely... >> I think a long time for that. >> It's definitely been preserved. >> I mean, Dave, I know I read one article at the beginning of the year is, can Arvin make IBM, Microsoft Junior? Follow the same turnaround that Satya Nadella drove over there. IBM I think making some progress, I mean, I read and watch what you and the team are all writing about it. And I'll withhold judgment on IBM. Obviously, there's certain financial things that we'd love to see IBM succeed. We worry about our business. We do our thing and IBM shares our results and they've been solid, so. >> Microsoft had such massive cash flow that even bomber couldn't screw it up. Well, I mean, this is true, right? I mean, you think about how were relevant Microsoft was in the conversation during his tenure and yet they never got really... They maintained a position so that when the Nadella came in, they were able to reascend and now are becoming that dominant player. I mean, IBM just doesn't have that cash flow and that luxury, but I mean, if he pulls it off, he'll be the CEO of the decade. >> You mentioned partners earlier, big concern when the acquisition was first announced, was that the Dells and the HP's and the such wouldn't want to work with Red Hat anymore, you've sort of been here through that transition. Is that an issue? >> Not that I've seen, no. I mean, the hardware suppliers, the ISVs, the GSIs are all very important. It was great to see, I think you had Accenture on theCUBE today, obviously very important partner as we go to the cloud. IBM's another important partner, not only for IBM Cloud, but IBM Services, deep partnership with Azure and AWS. So those partners and from a technology standpoint, the cloud native ecosystem, we talked about, it's not just a Red Hat product. I constantly have to talk about, look, we have a lot of pieces, but your developers are going to have other tools that they're going to use and the security space. There is no such thing as a silver bullet. So I've been having some great conversations here already this week with some of our partners that are helping us to round out that whole solution, help our customers because it has to be, it's an ecosystem. And we're one of the drivers to help that move forward. >> Well, I mean, we were at Dell Tech World last week, and there's a lot of talk about DevSecOps and DevOps and Dell being more developer friendly. Obviously they got a long way to go, but you can't have that take that posture and not have a relationship with Red Hat. If all you got is Pivotal and VMware, and Tansu >> I was thrilled to hear the OpenShift mention in the keynote when they talked about what they were doing. >> How could you not, how could you have any credibility if you're just like, Oh, Pivotal, Pivotal, Pivotal, Tansu, Tansu. Tansu is doing its thing. And they smart strategy. >> VMware is also a partner of ours, but that we would hope that with VMware being independent, that does open the door for us to do more with them. >> Yeah, because you guys have had a weird relationship with them, under ownership of EMC and then Dell, right? And then the whole IBM thing. But it's just a different world now. Ecosystems are forming and reforming, and Dell's building out its own cloud and it's got to have... Look at Amazon, I wrote about this. I said, "Can you envision the day where Dell actually offers competitive products in its suite, in its service offering?" I mean, it's hard to see, they're not there yet. They're not even close. And they have this high say/do ratio, or really it's a low say/do, they say high say/do, but look at what they did with Nutanix. You look over- (chuckles) would tell if it's the Cisco relationship. So it's got to get better at that. And it will, I really do believe. That's new thinking and same thing with HPE. And, I don't know about Lenovo that not as much of an ecosystem play, but certainly Dell and HPE. >> Absolutely. Michael Dell would always love to poke at HPE and HP really went very far down the path of their own products. They went away from their services organization that used to be more like IBM, that would offer lots of different offerings and very much, it was HP Invent. Well, if we didn't invent it, you're not getting it from us. So Dell, we'll see, as you said, the ecosystems are definitely forming, converging and going in lots of different directions. >> But your position is, Hey, we're here, we're here to help. >> Yeah, we're here. We have customers, one of the best proof points I have is the solution that we have with Amazon. Amazon doesn't do the engineering work to make us a native offering if they didn't have the customer demand because Amazon's driven off of data. So they came to us, they worked with us. It's a lot of work to be able to make that happen, but you want to make it frictionless for customers so that they can adopt that. That's a long path. >> All right, so evening event, there's a customer event this evening upstairs in the lobby. Microsoft is having a little shin dig, and then serves a lot of customer dinners going on. So Stu, we'll see you out there tonight. >> All right, thanks you. >> Were watching a brewing somewhere. >> Keynotes tomorrow, a lot of good sessions and enablement, and yeah, it's great to be in person to be able to bump some people, meet some people and, Hey, I'm still a year and a half in still meeting a lot of my peers in person for the first time. >> Yeah, and that's kind of weird, isn't it? Imagine. And then we kick off tomorrow at 10:00 AM. Actually, Stephanie Chiras is coming on. There she is in the background. She's always a great guest and maybe do a little kickoff and have some fun tomorrow. So this is Dave Vellante for Stu Miniman, Paul Gillin, who's my co-host. You're watching theCUBEs coverage of Red Hat Summit 2022. We'll see you tomorrow. (bright music)