>>Hello everyone. Welcome to the Cube's coverage of AWS Reinvent 22. I'm John Ferer, host of the Cube. Got some great coverage here talking about software supply chain and sustainability in the cloud. We've got a great conversation. Gunner Helickson, Vice President and general manager at Red Hat Enterprise Linux and Business Unit of Red Hat. Thanks for coming on. And Edon Eja Director, Product Management of commercial software services aws. Gentlemen, thanks for joining me today. >>Oh, it's a pleasure. >>You know, the hottest topic coming out of Cloudnative developer communities is slide chain software sustainability. This is a huge issue. As open source continues to power away and fund and grow this next generation modern development environment, you know, supply chain, you know, sustainability is a huge discussion because you gotta check things out where, what's in the code. Okay, open source is great, but now we gotta commercialize it. This is the topic, Gunner, let's get in, get with you. What, what are you seeing here and what's some of the things that you're seeing around the sustainability piece of it? Because, you know, containers, Kubernetes, we're seeing that that run time really dominate this new abstraction layer, cloud scale. What's your thoughts? >>Yeah, so I, it's interesting that the, you know, so Red Hat's been doing this for 20 years, right? Making open source safe to consume in the enterprise. And there was a time when in order to do that you needed to have a, a long term life cycle and you needed to be very good at remediating security vulnerabilities. And that was kind of, that was the bar that you had that you had to climb over. Nowadays with the number of vulnerabilities coming through, what people are most worried about is, is kind of the providence of the software and making sure that it has been vetted and it's been safe, and that that things that you get from your vendor should be more secure than things that you've just downloaded off of GitHub, for example. Right? And that's, that's a, that's a place where Red Hat's very comfortable living, right? >>Because we've been doing it for, for 20 years. I think there, there's another, there's another aspect to this, to this supply chain question as well, especially with the pandemic. You know, we've got these, these supply chains have been jammed up. The actual physical supply chains have been jammed up. And, and the two of these issues actually come together, right? Because as we've been go, as we go through the pandemic, we've had these digital transformation efforts, which are in large part people creating software in order to manage better their physical supply chain problems. And so as part of that digital transformation, you have another supply chain problem, which is the software supply chain problem, right? And so these two things kind of merge on these as people are trying to improve the performance of transportation systems, logistics, et cetera. Ultimately it all boils down to it all. Both supply chain problems actually boil down to a software problem. It's very >>Interesting that, Well, that is interesting. I wanna just follow up on that real quick if you don't mind. Because if you think about the convergence of the software and physical world, you know, that's, you know, IOT and also hybrid cloud kind of plays into that at scale, this opens up more surface area for attacks, especially when you're under a lot of pressure. This is where, you know, you can, you have a service area in the physical side and you have constraints there. And obviously the pandemic causes problems, but now you've got the software side. Can you, how are you guys handling that? Can you just share a little bit more of how you guys are looking at that with Red Hat? What's, what's the customer challenge? Obviously, you know, skills gaps is one, but like that's a convergence at the same time. More security problems. >>Yeah, yeah, that's right. And certainly the volume of, if we just look at security vulnerabilities themselves, just the volume of security vulnerabilities has gone up considerably as more people begin using the software. And as the software becomes more important to kind of critical infrastructure, more eyeballs are on it. And so we're uncovering more problems, which is kind of, that's, that's okay. That's how the world works. And so certainly the, the number of remediations required every year has gone up. But also the customer expectations, as I've mentioned before, the customer expectations have changed, right? People want to be able to show to their auditors and to their regulators that no, we, we, in fact, I can show the providence of the software that I'm using. I didn't just download something random off the internet. I actually have, like you, you know, adults paying attention to the, how the software gets put together. >>And it's still, honestly, it's still very early days. We can, I think the, in as an industry, I think we're very good at managing, identifying remediating vulnerabilities in the aggregate. We're pretty good at that. I think things are less clear when we talk about kind of the management of that supply chain, proving the provenance, proving the, and creating a resilient supply chain for software. We have lots of tools, but we don't really have lots of shared expectations. Yeah. And so it's gonna be interesting over the next few years, I think we're gonna have more rules are gonna come out. I see NIST has already, has already published some of them. And as these new rules come out, the whole industry is gonna have to kind of pull together and, and really and really rally around some of this shared understanding so we can all have shared expectations and we can all speak the same language when we're talking about this >>Problem. That's awesome. A and Amazon web service is obviously the largest cloud platform out there, you know, the pandemic, even post pandemic, some of these supply chain issues, whether it's physical or software, you're also an outlet for that. So if someone can't buy hardware or, or something physical, they can always get the cloud. You guys have great network compute and whatnot and you got thousands of ISVs across the globe. How are you helping customers with this supply chain problem? Because whether it's, you know, I need to get in my networking gears delayed, I'm gonna go to the cloud and get help there. Or whether it's knowing the workloads and, and what's going on inside them with respect open source. Cause you've got open source, which is kind of an external forcing function. You got AWS and you got, you know, physical compute stores, networking, et cetera. How are you guys helping customers with the supply chain challenge, which could be an opportunity? >>Yeah, thanks John. I think there, there are multiple layers to that. At, at the most basic level we are helping customers buy abstracting away all these data central constructs that they would have to worry about if they were running their own data centers. They would have to figure out how the networking gear, you talk about, you know, having the right compute, right physical hardware. So by moving to the cloud, at least they're delegating that problem to AWS and letting us manage and making sure that we have an instance available for them whenever they want it. And if they wanna scale it, the, the, the capacity is there for them to use now then that, so we kind of give them space to work on the second part of the problem, which is building their own supply chain solutions. And we work with all kinds of customers here at AWS from all different industry segments, automotive, retail, manufacturing. >>And you know, you see that the complexity of the supply chain with all those moving pieces, like hundreds and thousands of moving pieces, it's very daunting. So cus and then on the other hand, customers need more better services. So you need to move fast. So you need to build, build your agility in the supply chain itself. And that is where, you know, Red Hat and AWS come together where we can build, we can enable customers to build their supply chain solutions on platform like Red Hat Enterprise, Linux Rail or Red Hat OpenShift on, on aws. We call it Rosa. And the benefit there is that you can actually use the services that we, that are relevant for the supply chain solutions like Amazon managed blockchain, you know, SageMaker. So you can actually build predictive and s you can improve forecasting, you can make sure that you have solutions that help you identify where you can cut costs. And so those are some of the ways we are helping customers, you know, figure out how they actually wanna deal with the supply chain challenges that we're running into in today's world. >>Yeah, and you know, you mentioned sustainability outside of software su sustainability, you know, as people move to the cloud, we've reported on silicon angle here in the cube that it's better to have the sustainability with the cloud because then the data centers aren't using all that energy too. So there's also all kinds of sustainability advantages, Gunner, because this is, this is kind of how your relationship with Amazon's expanded. You mentioned Rosa, which is Red Hat on, you know, on OpenShift, on aws. This is interesting because one of the biggest discussions is skills gap, but we were also talking about the fact that the humans are huge part of the talent value. In other words, the, the humans still need to be involved and having that relationship with managed services and Red Hat, this piece becomes one of those things that's not talked about much, which is the talent is increasing in value the humans, and now you got managed services on the cloud, has got scale and human interactions. Can you share, you know, how you guys are working together on this piece? Cuz this is interesting cuz this kind of brings up the relationship of that operator or developer. >>Yeah, Yeah. So I think there's, so I think about this in a few dimensions. First is that the kind of the, I it's difficult to find a customer who is not talking about automation at some level right now. And obviously you can automate the processes and, and the physical infrastructure that you already have that's using tools like Ansible, right? But I think that the, combining it with the, the elasticity of a solution like aws, so you combine the automation with kind of elastic and, and converting a lot of the capital expenses into operating expenses, that's a great way actually to save labor, right? So instead of like racking hard drives, you can have somebody who's somebody do something a little more like, you know, more valuable work, right? And so, so okay, but that gives you a platform and then what do you do with that platform? >>And if you've got your systems automated and you've got this kind of elastic infrastructure underneath you, what you do on top of it is really interesting. So a great example of this is the collaboration that, that we had with running the rel workstation on aws. So you might think like, well why would anybody wanna run a workstation on, on a cloud? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense unless you consider how complex it is to set up, if you have the, the use case here is like industrial workstations, right? So it's animators, people doing computational fluid dynamics, things like this. So these are industries that are extremely data heavy. They have workstations have very large hardware requirements, often with accelerated GPUs and things like this. That is an extremely expensive thing to install on premise anywhere. And if the pandemic taught us anything, it's, if you have a bunch of very expensive talent and they all have to work from a home, it is very difficult to go provide them with, you know, several tens of thousands of dollars worth of worth of worth of workstation equipment. >>And so combine the rail workstation with the AWS infrastructure and now all that workstation computational infrastructure is available on demand and on and available right next to the considerable amount of data that they're analyzing or animating or, or, or working on. So it's a really interesting, it's, it was actually, this is an idea that I was actually born with the pandemic. Yeah. And, and it's kind of a combination of everything that we're talking about, right? It's the supply chain challenges of the customer, It's the lack of lack of talent, making sure that people are being put their best and highest use. And it's also having this kind of elastic, I think, opex heavy infrastructure as opposed to a CapEx heavy infrastructure. >>That's a great example. I think that's illustrates to me what I love about cloud right now is that you can put stuff in, in the cloud and then flex what you need when you need it at in the cloud rather than either ingress or egress data. You, you just more, you get more versatility around the workload needs, whether it's more compute or more storage or other high level services. This is kind of where this NextGen cloud is going. This is where, where, where customers want to go once their workloads are up and running. How do you simplify all this and how do you guys look at this from a joint customer perspective? Because that example I think will be something that all companies will be working on, which is put it in the cloud and flex to the, whatever the workload needs and put it closer to the work compute. I wanna put it there. If I wanna leverage more storage and networking, Well, I'll do that too. It's not one thing. It's gotta flex around what's, how are you guys simplifying this? >>Yeah, I think so for, I'll, I'll just give my point of view and then I'm, I'm very curious to hear what a not has to say about it, but the, I think and think about it in a few dimensions, right? So there's, there is a, technically like any solution that aan a nun's team and my team wanna put together needs to be kind of technically coherent, right? The things need to work well together, but that's not the, that's not even most of the job. Most of the job is actually the ensuring and operational consistency and operational simplicity so that everything is the day-to-day operations of these things kind of work well together. And then also all the way to things like support and even acquisition, right? Making sure that all the contracts work together, right? It's a really in what, So when Aon and I think about places of working together, it's very rare that we're just looking at a technical collaboration. It's actually a holistic collaboration across support acquisition as well as all the engineering that we have to do. >>And on your, your view on how you're simplifying it with Red Hat for your joint customers making Collabo >>Yeah. Gun, Yeah. Gunner covered it. Well I think the, the benefit here is that Red Hat has been the leading Linux distribution provider. So they have a lot of experience. AWS has been the leading cloud provider. So we have both our own point of views, our own learning from our respective set of customers. So the way we try to simplify and bring these things together is working closely. In fact, I sometimes joke internally that if you see Ghana and my team talking to each other on a call, you cannot really tell who who belongs to which team. Because we're always figuring out, okay, how do we simplify discount experience? How do we simplify programs? How do we simplify go to market? How do we simplify the product pieces? So it's really bringing our, our learning and share our perspective to the table and then really figure out how do we actually help customers make progress. Rosa that we talked about is a great example of that, you know, you know, we, together we figured out, hey, there is a need for customers to have this capability in AWS and we went out and built it. So those are just some of the examples in how both teams are working together to simplify the experience, make it complete, make it more coherent. >>Great. That's awesome. That next question is really around how you help organizations with the sustainability piece, how to support them, simplifying it. But first, before we get into that, what is the core problem around this sustainability discussion we're talking about here, supply chain sustainability, What is the core challenge? Can you both share your thoughts on what that problem is and what the solution looks like and then we can get into advice? >>Yeah. Well from my point of view, it's, I think, you know, one of the lessons of the last three years is every organization is kind of taking a careful look at how resilient it is. Or ever I should say, every organization learned exactly how resilient it was, right? And that comes from both the, the physical challenges and the logistics challenges that everyone had. The talent challenges you mentioned earlier. And of course the, the software challenges, you know, as everyone kind of embarks on this, this digital transformation journey that, that we've all been talking about. And I think, so I really frame it as, as resilience, right? And and resilience is at bottom is really about ensuring that you have options and that you have choices. The more choices you have, the more options you have, the more resilient you, you and your organization is going to be. And so I know that that's how, that's how I approach the market. I'm pretty sure that's exact, that's how AON is, has approaching the market, is ensuring that we are providing as many options as possible to customers so that they can assemble the right, assemble the right pieces to create a, a solution that works for their particular set of challenges or their unique set of challenges and and unique context. Aon, is that, does that sound about right to you? Yeah, >>I think you covered it well. I, I can speak to another aspect of sustainability, which is becoming increasingly top of mind for our customer is like how do they build products and services and solutions and whether it's supply chain or anything else which is sustainable, which is for the long term good of the, the planet. And I think that is where we have been also being very intentional and focused in how we design our data center. How we actually build our cooling system so that we, those are energy efficient. You know, we, we are on track to power all our operations with renewable energy by 2025, which is five years ahead of our initial commitment. And perhaps the most obvious example of all of this is our work with arm processors Graviton three, where, you know, we are building our own chip to make sure that we are designing energy efficiency into the process. And you know, we, there's the arm graviton, three arm processor chips, there are about 60% more energy efficient compared to some of the CD six comparable. So all those things that are also we are working on in making sure that whatever our customers build on our platform is long term sustainable. So that's another dimension of how we are working that into our >>Platform. That's awesome. This is a great conversation. You know, the supply chain is on both sides, physical and software. You're starting to see them come together in great conversations and certainly moving workloads to the cloud running in more efficiently will help on the sustainability side, in my opinion. Of course, you guys talked about that and we've covered it, but now you start getting into how to refactor, and this is a big conversation we've been having lately, is as you not just lift and ship but re-platform and refactor, customers are seeing great advantages on this. So I have to ask you guys, how are you helping customers and organizations support sustainability and, and simplify the complex environment that has a lot of potential integrations? Obviously API's help of course, but that's the kind of baseline, what's the, what's the advice that you give customers? Cause you know, it can look complex and it becomes complex, but there's an answer here. What's your thoughts? >>Yeah, I think so. Whenever, when, when I get questions like this from from customers, the, the first thing I guide them to is, we talked earlier about this notion of consistency and how important that is. It's one thing, it it, it is one way to solve the problem is to create an entirely new operational model, an entirely new acquisition model and an entirely new stack of technologies in order to be more sustainable. That is probably not in the cards for most folks. What they want to do is have their existing estate and they're trying to introduce sustainability into the work that they are already doing. They don't need to build another silo in order to create sustainability, right? And so there have to be, there has to be some common threads, there has to be some common platforms across the existing estate and your more sustainable estate, right? >>And, and so things like Red Hat enterprise Linux, which can provide this kind of common, not just a technical substrate, but a common operational substrate on which you can build these solutions if you have a common platform on which you are building solutions, whether it's RHEL or whether it's OpenShift or any of our other platforms that creates options for you underneath. So that in some cases maybe you need to run things on premise, some things you need to run in the cloud, but you don't have to profoundly change how you work when you're moving from one place to another. >>And that, what's your thoughts on, on the simplification? >>Yeah, I mean think that when you talk about replatforming and refactoring, it is a daunting undertaking, you know, in today's, in the, especially in today's fast paced work. So, but the good news is you don't have to do it by yourself. Customers don't have to do it on their own. You know, together AWS and Red Hat, we have our rich partner ecosystem, you know AWS over AWS has over a hundred thousand partners that can help you take that journey, the transformation journey. And within AWS and working with our partners like Red Hat, we make sure that we have all in, in my mind there are really three big pillars that you have to have to make sure that customers can successfully re-platform refactor their applications to the modern cloud architecture. You need to have the rich set of services and tools that meet their different scenarios, different use cases. Because no one size fits all. You have to have the right programs because sometimes customers need those incentives, they need those, you know, that help in the first step and last but no needs, they need training. So all of that, we try to cover that as we work with our customers, work with our partners and that is where, you know, together we try to help customers take that step, which is, which is a challenging step to take. >>Yeah. You know, it's great to talk to you guys, both leaders in your field. Obviously Red hats, well story history. I remember the days back when I was provisioning, loading OSS on hardware with, with CDs, if you remember, that was days gunner. But now with high level services, if you look at this year's reinvent, and this is like kind of my final question for the segment is then we'll get your reaction to is last year we talked about higher level services. I sat down with Adam Celski, we talked about that. If you look at what's happened this year, you're starting to see people talk about their environment as their cloud. So Amazon has the gift of the CapEx, the all that, all that investment and people can operate on top of it. They're calling that environment their cloud. Okay, For the first time we're seeing this new dynamic where it's like they have a cloud, but they're Amazon's the CapEx, they're operating. So you're starting to see the operational visibility gun around how to operate this environment. And it's not hybrid this, that it's just, it's cloud. This is kind of an inflection point. Do you guys agree with that or, or having a reaction to that statement? Because I, I think this is kind of the next gen super cloud-like capability. It's, it's, we're going, we're building the cloud. It's now an environment. It's not talking about private cloud, this cloud, it's, it's all cloud. What's your reaction? >>Yeah, I think, well I think it's a very natural, I mean we used words like hybrid cloud, multi-cloud, if, I guess super cloud is what the kids are saying now, right? It's, it's all, it's all describing the same phenomena, right? Which is, which is being able to take advantage of lots of different infrastructure options, but still having something that creates some commonality among them so that you can, so that you can manage them effectively, right? So that you can have kind of uniform compliance across your estate so that you can have kind of, you can make the best use of your talent across the estate. I mean this is a, this is, it's a very natural thing. >>They're calling it cloud, the estate is the cloud. >>Yeah. So yeah, so, so fine if it, if it means that we no longer have to argue about what's multi-cloud and what's hybrid cloud, I think that's great. Let's just call it cloud. >>And what's your reaction, cuz this is kind of the next gen benefits of, of higher level services combined with amazing, you know, compute and, and resource at the infrastructure level. What's your, what's your view on that? >>Yeah, I think the construct of a unified environment makes sense for customers who have all these use cases which require, like for instance, if you are doing some edge computing and you're running it WS outpost or you know, wave lent and these things. So, and, and it is, it is fear for customer to say, think that hey, this is one environment, same set of tooling that they wanna build that works across all their different environments. That is why we work with partners like Red Hat so that customers who are running Red Hat Enterprise Linux on premises and who are running in AWS get the same level of support, get the same level of security features, all of that. So from that sense, it actually makes sense for us to build these capabilities in a way that customers don't have to worry about, Okay, now I'm actually in the AWS data center versus I'm running outpost on premises. It is all one. They, they just use the same set of cli command line APIs and all of that. So in that sense, it's actually helps customers have that unification so that that consistency of experience helps their workforce and be more productive versus figuring out, okay, what do I do, which tool I use? Where >>And on you just nailed it. This is about supply chain sustainability, moving the workloads into a cloud environment. You mentioned wavelength, this conversation's gonna continue. We haven't even talked about the edge yet. This is something that's gonna be all about operating these workloads at scale and all the, with the cloud services. So thanks for sharing that and we'll pick up that edge piece later. But for reinvent right now, this is really the key conversation. How to bake the sustained supply chain work in a complex environment, making it simpler. And so thanks for sharing your insights here on the cube. >>Thanks. Thanks for having >>Us. Okay, this is the cube's coverage of ados Reinvent 22. I'm John Fur, your host. Thanks for watching.

>>The cube presents, Coon and cloud native con Europe 22, brought to you by the cloud native computing foundation. >>Welcome to the cube coverage of CubeCon 2022 EU. I'm here with my cohost Paul Gill. Please work with you, Keith. Nice to work with you, Paul. And we have our first two guests. The cube is hot. I'm telling you we are having interviews before the start of even the show floor I have with me. We gotta start with the customers first enterprise architect, a non-con Aon con. Welcome to the show. >>Thank you so >>Much. Cube time cube time. First now you're at cube alumni. Yep. <laugh> and, and, uh, has Havani CEO. Arai welcome back. Nice to, >>Uh, >>Talk to you again today. So we're talking all things Kubernetes and we're super excited to talk to MoneyGram about their journey to Kubernetes. First question I have for Anon. Talk to us about what your pre Kubernetes landscape looked like. >>Yeah, certainly. Uh, Keith, so, um, we had a, uh, you know, a traditional mix of legacy applications and modern applications. Uh, you know, a few years ago we made the decision to move to a microservices architecture. Um, and this was all happening while we were still on prem. Right? So your traditional VMs, um, and you know, we started 20, 30 microservices, but with the microservices packing, you know, you quickly expand to hundreds of microservices. Um, and we started getting to that stage where managing them without sort of an orchestration platform, uh, and just as traditional VMs was getting to be really challenging, right. Uh, especially from a day two operational, uh, you know, you can manage 10, 15 microservices, but when you start having 50 and so forth, um, all those concerns around, uh, you know, high availability, operational performance. Um, so we started looking at some open source projects, you know, spring cloud. Uh, we are predominantly a Java, um, shop. So we looked at the spring cloud projects. Uh, they give you a number, uh, you know, of initiatives, um, for doing some of those, um, management and what we realized again, to manage those components, um, without sort of a platform was really challenging. So that, that kind of led us to sort of Kubernetes where, um, along with our journey cloud, uh, it was the platform that could help us with a lot of those management operational concerns. >>So as you talk about some of those challenges, pre Kubernetes, what were some of the operational issues that you folks experienced? >>Yeah. You know, uh, certain things like auto scaling is, is number one, right? I mean, that's a fundamental concept of cloud native, right. Is, um, how do you auto scale VMs? Right. Uh, you can put in some old methods and stuff, but, uh, it was really hard to do that automatically. Right. So, uh, Kubernetes with like HPA gives you those out of the box, right? Provided you set the right policies. Uh, you can have auto scaling, uh, where it can scale up and scale back. So we were doing that manually. Right. So before, uh, you know, MoneyGram, obviously, you know, holiday season, people are sending more money mother's day. Um, our ops team would go in basically manually scale, uh, VMs. Right. So we'd go from four instances to maybe eight instances. Right. Uh, but, but that entailed outages. Right. Um, and just to plan around doing that manually and then sort of scale them back was a lot of overhead, a lot of administration overhead. Right. So, uh, we wanted something that could help us do that automatically right. In a, in an efficient, uh, unintrusive way. So, so, you know, that was one of the things, uh, monitoring, um, and, and management, uh, operations, you know, just kind of visibility into how those applications were during, what were the status of your, um, workloads was also a challenge, right. Uh, to do that. >>So, cause see, I gotta ask the question. If someone would've came to me with that problem, I'd just say, you know, what, go to the plug, the cloud, what, how does, uh, your group help solve some of these challenges? What do you guys do? >>Yeah. What, what do we do? So here's my perspective on the market as it's playing out. So I see a bifurcation happening in the Kubernetes space, but there's the Kubernetes run time. So Amazon is EKS Azure as EKS, you know, there's enough of these available. They're not managed services. They're actually really good, frankly. Right? In fact, retail customers, if you're an Amazon, why would you spin up your own? Just use EK. It's awesome. But then there's an operational layer that is needed to run Kubernetes. Uh, my perspective is that, you know, 50,000 enterprises are adopting Kubernetes over the next five to 10 years. And they're all gonna go through the same exact journey and they're all gonna end up, you know, potentially making the same mistake, which is, they're gonna assume that Kubernetes is easy. <laugh> they're gonna say, well, this is not hard. I got this up and running on my laptop. >>This is so easy. No worries. Right. I can do key gas, but then, okay. Can you consistently spin up these things? Can you scale them consistently? Do you have the right blueprints in place? Do you have the right access management in place? Do you have the right policies in place? Can you deploy applications consistently? Do you have monitoring and visibility into those things? Do your developers have access to when they need it? Do you have the right networking layer in place? Do you have the right chargebacks in place? Remember you have multiple teams and by the way, nobody has a single cluster. So you gotta do this across multiple clusters. And some of them have multiple clouds, not because they wanna be multiple clouds because, but sometimes you buy a company and they happen to be in Azure. How many dashboards do you have now across all the open source technologies that you have identified to solve these problems? >>This is where pain lies. So I think that Kubernetes is fundamentally a solve problem. Like our friends at AWS and Azure they've solved this problem. It's like a KSKS et cetera, GK for that matter. They're they're great. And you should use them and don't even think about spinning up Q B and a best clusters. Don't do it. Use the platforms that exist and commensurately on premises. OpenShift is pretty awesome, right? If you like it, use it. But then when it comes to the operations layer, right, that's where today we end up investing in a DevOps team and then an SRE organization that need to become experts in Kubernetes. And that is not tenable, right? Can you let's say unlimited capital unlimited budgets. Can you hire 20 people to do Kubernetes today? >>If you could find them, if >>You can find 'em right. So even if you could, the point is that see, five years ago, when your competitors were not doing Kubernetes, it was a competitive advantage to go build a team to do Kubernetes. So you could move faster today. You know, there's a high chance that your competitors are already buying from a Rafa or somebody like Rafa. So now it's better to take these really, really sharp engineers and have them work on things that make the company money, writing operations for Kubernetes. This is a commodity. Now >>How confident are you that the cloud providers won't get in and do what you do and put you out of business? >>Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I think, I mean, in fact, I, I had a conversation with somebody from HBS this morning and I was telling them, I don't think you have a choice. You have to do this right. Competition is not a bad thing. Right? This, the, >>If we are the only company in a space, this is not a space, right. The bet we are making is that every enterprise has, you know, they have an on-prem strategy. They have at least a handful of, everybody's got at least two clouds that they're thinking about. Everybody starts with one cloud and then they have some other cloud that they're also thinking about, um, for them to only rely on one cloud's tools to solve for on-prem plus that second cloud, they potentially, they may have, that's a tough thing to do. Um, and at the same time we as a vendor, I mean the only real reason why startups survive is because you have technology that is truly differentiated, right. Otherwise, right. I mean, you gotta build something that is materially. Interesting. Right. We seem to have, sorry, go ahead. >>No, I was gonna ask you, you actually had me thinking about something, a non yes. MoneyGram big, well known company, a startup, adding, working in a space with Google, VMware, all the biggest names. What brought you to Rafi to solve this operational challenge? >>Yeah. Good question. So when we started out sort of in our Kubernetes, um, you know, we had heard about EKS, uh, and, and we are an AWS shop. So, uh, that was the most natural path. And, and we looked at, um, EKS and, and used that to, you know, create our clusters. Um, but then we realized very quickly that yes, toe's point AWS manages the control plane for you. It gives you the high availability. So you're not managing those components, which is some really heavy lifting. Right. Uh, but then what about all the other things like, you know, centralized dashboard, what about, we need to provision, uh, Kubernetes clusters on multi-cloud right. We have other clouds that we use, uh, or also on prem. Right. Um, how do you do some of that stuff? Right. Um, we, we also, at that time were looking at, uh, other, uh, tools also. >>And I had, I remember come up with an MVP list that we needed to have in place for day one or day two, uh, operations, right. To before we even launch any single applications into production. Um, and my ops team looked at that list. Um, and literally there was only one or two items that they could check, check off with S you know, they they've got the control plane, they've got the cluster provision, but what about all those other components? Uh, and some of that kind of led us down the path of, uh, you know, looking at, Hey, what's out there in this space. And, and we realized pretty quickly that there weren't too many, there were some large providers and capabilities like Antos, but we felt that it was, uh, a little too much for what we were trying to do. You know, at that point in time, we wanted to scale slowly. We wanted to minimize our footprint. Um, and, and Rafa seemed to sort of, uh, was, was a nice mix, uh, you know, uh, from all those different angles, how >>Was, how was the situation affecting your developer experience? >>So, um, so that's a really good question also. So operations was one aspect of, to it, right? The other part is the application development, right? We've got, uh, you know, Moneygrams when a lot of organizations have a plethora of technologies, right? From, from Java to.net to no GS, what have you, right. Um, now as you start saying, okay, now we're going cloud native, and we're gonna start deploying to Kubernetes. Um, there's a fair amount of overhead because a tech stack, all of a sudden goes from, you know, just being Java or just being.net to things like Docker, right? All these container orchestration and deployment concerns, Kubernetes, uh, deployment artifacts, right. I gotta write all this YAML, uh, as my developer say, YAML, hell right. <laugh>, uh, I gotta learn Docker files. I need to figure out, um, a package manager like helm, uh, on top of learning all the Kubernetes artifacts. >>Right. So, um, initially we went with sort of, okay, you know, we can just train our developers. Right. Um, and that was wrong. Right. I mean, you can't assume that everyone is gonna sort of learn all these deployment concerns, uh, and we'll adopt them. Right. Um, uh, there's a lot of stuff that's outside of their sort of core dev domain, uh, that you're putting all this burden on them. Right. So, um, we could not rely on them and to be sort of cube cuddle experts, right. That that's a fair amount, overhead learning curve there. Um, so Rafa again, from their dashboard perspective, right? So the managed cube cuddle gives you that easy access for devs, right. Where they can go and monitor the status of their workloads. Um, they can, they don't have to figure out, you know, configuring all these tools locally just to get it to work. >>Uh, we did some things from a DevOps perspective to basically streamline and automate that process. But then also office order came in and helped us out, uh, on kind of that providing that dashboard. They don't have to worry. They can basically get on through single sign on and have visibility into the status of their deployment. Uh, they can do troubleshooting diagnostics all through a single pane of glass. Right. Which was a key key item. Uh, initially before Rafa, we were doing that command line. Right. And again, just getting some of the tools configured was, was huge. Right. Took us days just to get that. And then the learning curve for development teams, right? Oh, now you gotta, you got the tools now you gotta figure out how to use it. Right. Um, so >>See, talk to me about the, the cloud native infrastructure. When I look at that entire landscaping number, I'm just overwhelmed by it. As a customer, I look at it, I'm like, I, I don't know where to start I'm sure. Or not, you, you folks looked at it and said, wow, there's so many solutions. How do you engage with the ecosystem? You have to be at some level opinionated, but flexible enough to, uh, meet every customer's needs. How, how do you approach that? >>Yeah. So it's a, it's a really tough problem to solve because, so, so the thing about abstraction layers, you know, we all know how that plays out, right? So abstraction layers are fundamentally never the right answer because they will never catch up. Right. Because you're trying to write and layer on top. So then we had to solve the problem, which was, well, we can't be an abstraction layer, but then at the same time, we need to provide some sort of, sort of like centralization standardization. Right. So, so we sort of have this, the following dissonance in our platform, which is actually really important to solve the problem. So we think of a, of a stack as sort of four things. There's the, there's the Kubernetes layer infrastructure layer, um, and EKS is different from ES and it's okay. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, if we try to now bring them all together and make them behave as one, our customers are gonna suffer because there are features in ESS that I really want. >>But then if you write an AB obsession layer, I'm not gonna get 'em so not. Okay. So treat them as individual things. And we logic that we now curate. So every time S for example, goes from 1 22 to 1 23, rewrite a new product, just so my customer can press a button and upgrade these clusters. Similarly, we do this fors, we do this for GK. We it's a really, really hard job, but that's the job. We gotta do it on top of that, you have these things called. Add-ons like my network policy, my access management policy, my et cetera. Right. These things are all actually the same. So whether I'm Anek or a Ks, I want the same access for Keith versus a none. Right. So then those components are sort of the same across doesn't matter how many clusters does money clouds on top of that? You have applications. And when it comes to the developer, in fact, I do the following demo a lot of times because people ask the question, right? Mean, I, I, I, people say things like, I wanna run the same Kubernetes distribution everywhere, because this is like Linux, actually, it's not. So I, I do a demo where I spin up a access to an OpenShift cluster and an EKS cluster and an AKs cluster. And I say, log in, show me which one is, which they're all the same. >>So Anan get, put, make that real for me, I'm sure after this amount of time, developers groups have come to you with things that are snowflakes and you, and as a enterprise architect, you have to make it work within your framework. How has working with RAI made that possible? >>Yeah. So, um, you know, I think one of the very common concerns is right. The whole deployment, right. Uh, toe's point, right. Is you are from an, from a deployment perspective. Uh, it's still using helm. It's still using some of the same tooling, um, right. But, um, how do you Rafa gives us, uh, some tools, you know, they have a, a command line, art cuddle API that essentially we use. Um, we wanted parody, um, across all our different environments, different clusters, you know, it doesn't matter where you're running. Um, so that gives us basically a consistent API for deployment. Um, we've also had, um, challenges, uh, with just some of the tooling in general, that we worked with RA actually to actually extend their, our cuddle API for us, so that we have a better deployment experience for our developers. So, >>Uh Huie how long does this opportunity exist for you? At some point, do the cloud providers figure this out or does the open source community figure out how to do what you've done and, and this opportunity is gone. >>So, so I think back to a platform that I, I think very highly of, which is a highly off, which has been around a long time and continues to live vCenter, I think vCenter is awesome. And it's, it's beautiful. VMware did an incredible job. Uh, what is the job? Its job is to manage VMs, right? But then it's for access. It's also storage. It's also networking and a sex, right? All these things got done because to solve a real problem, you have to think about all the things that come together to solve, help you solve that problem from an operations perspective. Right? My view is that this market needs essentially a vCenter, but for Kubernetes, right. Um, and that is a very broad problem, right. And it's gonna spend, it's not about a cloud, right? I mean, every cloud should build this. I mean, why would they not? It makes sense, Anto success, right. Everybody should have one. But then, you know, the clarity in thinking that the Rafa team seems to have exhibited till date seems to merit an independent company. In my opinion, I think like, I mean, from a technical perspective, this products awesome. Right? I mean, you know, we seem to have, you know, no real competition when it comes to this broad breadth of capabilities, will it last, we'll see, right. I mean, I keep doing Q shows, right? So every year you can ask me that question again. Well, you're >>You make a good point though. I mean, you're up against VMware, you're up against Google. They're both trying to do sort of the same thing you're doing. What's why are you succeeding? >>Maybe it's focus. Maybe it's because of the right experience. I think startups only in hindsight, can one tell why a startup was successful? In all honesty. I, I, I've been in a one or two service in the past. Um, and there's a lot of luck to this. There's a lot of timing to this. I think this timing for a com product like this is perfect. Like three, four years ago, nobody would've cared. Like honestly, nobody would've cared. This is the right time to have a product like this in the market because so many enterprises are now thinking of modernization. And because everybody's doing this, this is like the boots storm problem in HCI. Everybody's doing it. But there's only so many people in the industry who actually understand this problem. So they can't even hire the people. And the CTO said, I gotta go. I don't have the people. I can't fill the, the seats. And then they look for solutions and we are that solution that we're gonna get embedded. And when you have infrastructure software like this embedded in your solution, we're gonna be around with the assuming, obviously we don't score up, right. We're gonna be around with these companies for some time. We're gonna have strong partners for the long term. >>Well, vCenter for Kubernetes, I love to end on that note, intriguing conversation. We could go on forever on this topic, cuz there's a lot of work to do. I think, uh, I don't think this will over be a solve problem for the Kubernetes of cloud native solution. So I think there's a lot of opportunity in that space. Hi, thank you for rejoining the cube. I non con welcome becoming a cube alum. <laugh> I awesome. Thank you. Get your much your profile on the, on the Ken's. Website's really cool from Valencia Spain. I'm Keith Townsend, along with my whole Paul Gillon and you're watching the cube, the leader in high tech coverage.

>>The cube presents, Dell technologies world brought to you by Dell. >>Hey everyone. Welcome back to the cubes coverage of day. One of Dell technologies world 2022. Live from the Venetian in Las Vegas. They're excited. I dunno if you heard that a group behind me, very excited to be here. Lisa Martin, Dave ante. We're very pleased to welcome Jules Johns SVP of channel from McQuin. Jill, welcome to the program. >>Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. >>And those people back there are very excited. If you heard that big applause >>That >>Went live <laugh> so the, the vibe here is fantastic for the first live Dell technologies world since 2019. A lot of people here, this expo hall is packed a lot of, of momentum here, but there's also a lot of momentum critics. Talk to us about what's going on. >>Well, and you know, so, so many exciting things for Equinex and, you know, in this partnership of Dell, it gives us a chance to, to share that, uh, with partners here throughout the conference. So we are very excited, as you said about, and we just, we named to the fortune 500 this year, 77 quarters of growth consecutively, but underpinning that is having made huge investments in what is the world's largest footprint of global data centers, 240 of them on six continent in 66 markets, but then interconnecting them. So they have the connections that Dell customers need to the clouds. They have the connections that they need to all of the future SaaS providers, so that foresight to put together that interconnection network across our footprint has set us on the path we're on today, which we're very grateful, um, to be at in. And, and really this, the things that are happening with Equinex and Dell together can, couldn't be more of the moment. >>Talk to me about that. The, the last two years, the moments of the last two years have been very challenging. They have for everyone. How has the partnership evolved in that time? >>Well, you know, we at together, Dell and Equinix, what we're doing is really helping, helping our shared interface, customers navigate the complexities of their digital transformation and, and digital transformation is hard and it's not a one and done, and it's not an overnight solution. And so what we are doing is partnering with Dell to think about putting a dedicated Dell it stack in an Equinex data center to give customers that sovereign adjacency so that they can have that security proximate to our, all the clouds and, and, and all, everything else. They need to participate in the ecosystem. And then pairing that with, you know, these interconnected enterprises. So Dell and we are helping customers then be able to have some of their solution on Preem some of their solution in the cloud access, public clouds, and use that collectively to diff fine. We're calling the intelligent edge together. And that intelligent edge means so many different things to customers, but it is really our honor to work together with Dell to help each customer define that for themselves. >>E's amazing company, like you said, it's, it's, you know, I didn't realize it was that many consecutive quarters, but it's a 60 billion plus market cap. If you look at the stock chart, blow your mind, really incredibly successful. And part of the reason it's funny, you know, 10, 15 years ago, people thought, well, oh, 10 years ago, anyway, the cloud is gonna hurt companies like equity. It was exact opposite it. And, and that's because, you know, Charles Phillips used to joke friends. Don't let friends build data centers. Yes. Right. And, and it's not a good use of capital for most companies, unless you're in the data center business. Now, of course you have some of your own as a service offerings. We do. What's the overlap with, with Dell? How do they compliment each other? It, >>It's a good question because, you know, and we get that, are you and Dell in fact competitors, and no, we see them as who complimentary. And in fact, we're working with Dell to bring to market things like something we call power edge, which involves their servers and power store, which involves their storage. And, and then V RIL, which is really the hyperconverged infrastructure. And those are just few first of a series of offerings we expect to bring to market with Dell. And if you think about metal and, and it's Equinex metal that people sometimes think is a competitor, but what metal does for customers is it really allows them to advance, have the equipment placed in our data centers so that they can access that capacity. And according to spikes or needs that they have that equipment in our data centers, that's there for them to avail themselves of that capacity is most often Dell equipment. So we are really doing and executing that bare metal is a service together. >>What are some of the, the things that you're hearing from, from your partner community, in terms of the partnership with Dell, what are partners supposed be excited, the momentum there what's going on in the partner community? >>So, you know, that is that's, that's what near and dear to my heart, since that's what I'm responsible for. Equinex is global partnerships, and they are very excited about what we're doing with Dell. And to be honest with you, all of our top partners are also top partners of Dell. So it makes that we bring it together. So, you know, big categories of partners like the world's largest global network service providers, some of whom are here and who will meet with the at T orange business services. Those folks, in addition to the world's largest global systems integrators, Kendra, Deloitte, Accenture, we pro, uh, all DXC. All of these are partners that Dell and we will meet with together to further our, what we call power three, that together we're better because as much as Dell and Equinex are delivering the customers, most often don't have the experience. They need to execute it without a partner. So they are relying on those partners to take what we are doing and make it their own. And so, so if they're excited about it, it is a, it's a big opportunity for them from a, a revenue services, a and an opportunity for them to step into a next level, trusted advisor status. So partners are excited and, and we're gonna be spending a lot of time with them the next few days. Do you >>See Equinix? You know, these cuz these partnerships are not bespoke partnerships, it's an ecosystem that's organic and evolving and, and growing. Can it be, are you a dot connector in a way, can it be a flywheel effect in your ecosystem? >>Well, I mean our, so our E ecosystems that, um, that we provide wide range of those from high frequency trading to connected cars, um, to the internet things, many and content providers that we are, we do see it as our role to, you know, the 10,000 and growing customers that are in our 240 data centers and six continents that provide those ecosystems. It's, it is our mission to continue to grow that and enrich it because that does differentiate us greatly from another data center provider. And it's the combination of the ecosystem that you find and the people you can connect to at Equinex, and then also the leverage of our fabric in order to be able to access your future needs. >>And it's a lot of technology underneath these, you know, it's that first layer one, I guess, if you will, of the data center, right. And so a lot of your, your customers or your cus your partner's customers, they just don't want to be in that business. As we were saying before, I mean, it's just too expensive. The, the power requirements are going through the roof, so you gotta be really good at managing power. >>You do. In fact, you know, so first of all, you're right, it's extremely difficult for them to also be able to make that kind of commitment, to keep a data center. They would ran, they would manage themselves at the level that Equinex is able to invest. So it's very difficult for people to do it themselves, but even show another, you mentioned actually about the power is near and dear to our hearts because is super committed to sustainability. And so we've made a commitment to holy renewable energy. And it's something that we talk a lot about how we also help partners like Dell meet their initiatives, so, or partners like at T meet their connected climate goals. So we, we are actually using that and coming together with Dell on that story, so that, and, and then helping to amplify that with our partners. And, >>And that's, that's how do you do that? That's putting data centers where you can cool with ambient air. Is it being near the Columbia river? How what's, what's your strategy in that regard, >>Uh, and sustainable. I have to be honest to you. I, uh, I would be out of my depth if I didn't say >>This is the high level. Yeah. >>So, um, we are deploying some of the latest technologies about that, and then experts people who, you know, who all they do is really help us to, um, to reduce the carbon footprint and be able to offset that, be able to use solar, be able to use wind, be able to take advantage of that. And then also to, um, to navigate what's available when you're in 240 locations on six cotton, it's not the same options to reduce your power consumption. And your burden are different in Africa, as you just discovered with our main one acquisition than they are in India, or then they are in, in other parts of the world. So it is for us a journey, and we've been assembling a lot of the talent to do that, but >>You're so large now, even a small percentage improvement can really move the needle. >>And I think because we are the largest, it is incumbent upon us to really set the standard and be committed to it. And, um, and we do see other people following, which is, is a good thing for all of us. Well, >>How important is that in your partnership conversations that partners have that same focus and commitment on ESG that Equinix has >>Partners care a lot about it, but, uh, customers ask us both all the time. I mean, we increasingly see a portion of an RFP or a scope of work asking before I decide to go with Equinex and Dell, tell me how you're going to impact the environment. Tell me about your commitment. And so, um, so we are committed to it, but customers are demanding it to >>Where >>Do you go ahead please? >>Oh, I was just gonna say, it's, it's coming from the, from the voice of a customer, which Equinox is listening to, we know Dell is listening to it as well. >>I'm so >>Sorry. One more time that, that the, the sustainability of the ESG demand is coming from the customers. You were saying, it, >>It both like, I mean, we wanna do the right thing and we've made commitments to it, but our customers are holding us accountable to it. And, you know, sustainability is now a board level priority. It is for us. And it is for companies like Dell and it is for partners and customers. >>It really is. It's it's, I mean, it's up there with security in terms of the board level conversation, where do you want to see the partner ecosystem in the, the, the next let's call it three to five years in your business? You can look out that far. >>Well, you know, I, I think that, um, they, our partners, um, and I, that, I mean, Dells and our mutual partners, you know, are, we've been listening to customers with Dell to deliver a flexible set of options for how customers would consume Equinex and Dell. So our partners are gonna be integrating a variety of those in order to meet the customer where they are in that journey, whether they wanna buy apex as a service, whether they wanna buy Equinex metal, whether they wanna have car some, uh, a partner put together, bespoke, do it yourself, combination with other services. Uh, I, I mean, the customers are going to demand a choice of options. I think partners are gonna embrace multiple versions of that so that they can, you know, to meet the customer where they are and take them >>Well, that's, that's incredibly important these days to meet customer where they are, the customers have a lot of choice. It is, but everything that we're all doing is for the customer, ultimately at the end of the day, <laugh> >>Yes, it, it, it, it is. And, and, you know, the customers are getting Savier, but we are all still early in this journey, as far as the edge, you know, I mean, I think we are all still, um, we're all still grappling at the, at for right now. We like to say that as customers are looking to define that the, the footprint that we offer together with Dell gives them an, an awfully robust set of choices for now. And then we wanna continue to invest and expand to be wherever they need us. >>Well, that's the thing about your business? It's it's optionality. I mean, you can't, I mean, the cloud has a lot of stuff, but you can't get everything you want in the cloud. You can, and you can put anything in your data center. That's, that's, you know, it, >>You can, but you may not know what you need yet. And so that's one of the things we spend a lot of time having our solutions, architects and our sales people together, but they'll talk about future proofing, their strategy. So future proofing, that combination of OnPrem and in an Equinex data center, and maybe some public and future proofing leveraging our fabric so that they might elect different SaaS space services or cloud based services a year to five years from now than the year, even thinking about today. And, and they may expand their edge over time, because they may, they may sort of see that as a, at the customer end point today, most businesses are still sort of using a footprint like ours as their edge, but that could change. And so we wanna be there when it does. >>Yeah. That's a great point because you don't wanna necessarily have to rip it out every cup of years. If you, if you, if you can have a, an architecture that can grow. Yeah, sure. You might want to upgrade it >>Well, and it's one, that's one of the most appealing things about services like metal, where they also, uh, they do sort of prevent that sort of rip and replace, but they also help people navigate the supply chain shortages that are going on right now. So this that's been, this has been a trying two years for supply chain shortages, and being able to take advantage of Dell equipment already staged at an Equinex data center and partners can then bring their customers a quicker immediate response. Have >>You also seen this? You mentioned the supply chain shortages, some of the many challenges that we've experienced in a last few years, how much of a factor has the great resignation been? The labor shortages, the cybersecurity skills gap on, on folks coming, Tolin saying help. We don't have the resources here to do this ourselves. >>We have been fortunate to, to not, to, to be, um, if you're asking about how the reservation has affected us as a company, no, >>Your customers >>Or customers that has oh, okay. Yes. So it is, it is a challenge for them, but it's an opportunity for our partners. So what I see there is it's been challenging for customers to hold onto that talent, but partners are filling that gap and we've access Aon fortunate to hold onto a lot of our best and brightest. And so we put them together with our partner and we try to help customers fill those gaps. >>Well, that's most important thing, filling those gaps. >>You, you ever been one in inside one of these ultra modern data centers? I have not, >>Not yet. >>It's pretty cool. Isn't it? I mean, >>Have you, have you ever had a tour of one? >>I I've never had a tour of an Equinix data center, but I've seen some modern data centers that will blow your mind. Well, >>I mean, they, they come with all the requisite, uh, bio and man traps and all of the bells and, and, and whistles that are actually the first slay of physical security. But then once you get into the data center, then we have sort, we get into the virtual and the digital security that you would expect. So it's, >>Yeah, it's good. And you know, it's not like you drive by the data center, it's a big sign. Here's the data center. It is kind of, you know, they're trying to stay a little hidden and then like, it's get in. It's like getting into fork knots. It's probably harder. And then, but then the it's, it's like this giant clean room, right? It's amazingly clean and just huge. >>There are all >>Your >>Mind. And inside this data centers, all the world's networks come together and peer, and then we have inside their, the, the most direct rom reps to the cloud. So you would expect there, there's a, there's a lot of wires and pipes running very neatly through a very secure, >>Clean systems and power system >>Environment. For sure. >>Amazing engineering. >>It is really >>A >>Tour. You should, you, if they do, you let people tour >>Your, I, I will bring both of you on a tour. Awesome. >>I, my guess >>Would love to. >>Yeah. Great. Sounds fantastic >>On that. So >>Last >>Couple, we'll bring a camera. <laugh> Oh, no, we're not allowed. Not today. >>No phones, no phones sequester. So what, what are some of the things that you're excited about seeing and hearing the next couple of days as this is the first time we've all gotten to be together in so long? >>So, um, well, you know, we are excited about the conversations that we're gonna have power of three that I was talking about. So, you know, we really pride ourselves on sort of having that combination add up to more, to benefit the customer. And so this will be sort of a coming out party of sorts for Equinex and Dell will meet with you almost 20 different global partners that are really important to both of us. So I am most excited about those conversations and about, uh, the education I'm gonna get on the ways they're thinking about integrating it differently, because that is good choice for the market. That is good choice for the customer set. So for the enterprises out there, so that I'm most excited about. Awesome. >>Sounds like tremendous opportunity, lots going on this week, but thank you for coming on, just talking An hour of Equinix and Dell better together, the way that your channel partner program is growing. And of course the momentum of the company will can't wait to see what happens next year. Thank >>You. Thank you. Well, we aim to deliver and thank you again for having us. Thanks, >>Jules. Our pleasure for Dave Volante. I'm Lisa Martin, and you're watching the cubes live coverage day one, Dell technologies world live from Las Vegas, stick around. We'll be right back with our next guest.

(upbeat music) >> On February 19th of this year, Barron's dropped an article declaring Oracle, a cloud giant and the article explained why the stock was a buy. Investors took notice and the stock ran up 18% over the next nine trading days and it peaked on March 9th, the day before Oracle announced its latest earnings. The company beat consensus earnings on both top-line and EPS last quarter, but investors, they did not like Oracle's tepid guidance and the stock pulled back. But it's still, as you can see, well above its pre-Barron's article price. What does all this mean? Is Oracle a cloud giant? What are its growth prospects? Now many parts of Oracle's business are growing including Fusion ERP, Fusion HCM, NetSuite, we're talking deep into the double digits, 20 plus percent growth. It's OnPrem legacy licensed business however, continues to decline and that moderates, the overall company growth because that OnPrem business is so large. So the overall Oracle's growing in the low single digits. Now what stands out about Oracle is it's recurring revenue model. That figure, the company says now it represents 73% of its revenue and that's going to continue to grow. Now two other things stood out on the earnings call to us. First, Oracle plans on increasing its CapEX by 50% in the coming quarter, that's a lot. Now it's still far less than AWS Google or Microsoft Spend on capital but it's a meaningful data point. Second Oracle's consumption revenue for Autonomous Database and Cloud Infrastructure, OCI or Oracle Cloud Infrastructure grew at 64% and 139% respectively and these two factors combined with the CapEX Spend suggest that the company has real momentum. I mean look, it's possible that the CapEx announcements maybe just optics in they're front loading, some spend to show the street that it's a player in cloud but I don't think so. Oracle's Safra Catz's usually pretty disciplined when it comes to it's spending. Now today on March 17th, Oracle announced updates towards Autonomous Data Warehouse and with me is David Floyer who has extensively researched Oracle over the years and today we're going to unpack the Oracle Autonomous Data Warehouse, ADW announcement. What it means to customers but we also want to dig into Oracle's strategy. We want to compare it to some other prominent database vendors specifically, AWS and Snowflake. David Floyer, Welcome back to The Cube, thanks for making some time for me. >> Thank you Vellante, great pleasure to be here. >> All right, I want to get into the news but I want to start with this idea of the autonomous database which Oracle's announcement today is building on. Oracle uses the analogy of a self-driving car. It's obviously powerful metaphor as they call it the self-driving database and my takeaway is that, this means that the system automatically provisions, it upgrades, it does all the patching for you, it tunes itself. Oracle claims that all reduces labor costs or admin costs by 90%. So I ask you, is this the right interpretation of what Oracle means by autonomous database? And is it real? >> Is that the right interpretation? It's a nice analogy. It's a test to that analogy, isn't it? I would put it as the first stage of the Autonomous Data Warehouse was to do the things that you talked about, which was the tuning, the provisioning, all of that sort of thing. The second stage is actually, I think more interesting in that what they're focusing on is making it easy to use for the end user. Eliminating the requirement for IT, staff to be there to help in the actual using of it and that is a very big step for them but an absolutely vital step because all of the competition focusing on ease of use, ease of use, ease of use and cheapness of being able to manage and deploy. But, so I think that is the really important area that Oracle has focused on and it seemed to have done so very well. >> So in your view, is this, I mean you don't really hear a lot of other companies talking about this analogy of the self-driving database, is this unique? Is it differentiable for Oracle? If so, why, or maybe you could help us understand that a little bit better. >> Well, the whole strategy is unique in its breadth. It has really brought together a whole number of things together and made it of its type the best. So it has a single, whole number of data sources and database types. So it's got a very broad range of different ways that you can look at the data and the second thing that is also excellent is it's a platform. It is fully self provisioned and its functionality is very, very broad indeed. The quality of the original SQL and the query languages, etc, is very, very good indeed and it's a better agent to do joints for example, is excellent. So all of the building blocks are there and together with it's sharing of the same data with OLTP and inference and in memory data paces as well. All together the breadth of what they have is unique and very, very powerful. >> I want to come back to this but let's get into the news a little bit and the announcement. I mean, it seems like what's new in the autonomous data warehouse piece for Oracle's new tooling around four areas that so Andy Mendelsohn, the head of this group instead of the guy who releases his baby, he talked about four things. My takeaway, faster simpler loads, simplified transforms, autonomous machine learning models which are facilitating, What do you call it? Citizen data science and then faster time to insights. So tooling to make those four things happen. What's your take and takeaways on the news? >> I think those are all correct. I would add the ease of use in terms of being able to drag and drop, the user interface has been dramatically improved. Again, I think those, strategically are actually more important that the others are all useful and good components of it but strategically, I think is more important. There's ease of use, the use of apex for example, are more important. And, >> Why are they more important strategically? >> Because they focus on the end users capability. For example, one of other things that they've started to introduce is Python together with their spatial databases, for example. That is really important that you reach out to the developer as they are and what tools they want to use. So those type of ease of use things, those types of things are respecting what the end users use. For example, they haven't come out with anything like click or Tableau. They've left that there for that marketplace for the end user to use what they like best. >> Do you mean, they're not trying to compete with those two tools. They indeed had a laundry list of stuff that they supported, Talend, Tableau, Looker, click, Informatica, IBM, I had IBM there. So their claim was, hey, we're open. But so that's smart. That's just, hey, they realized that people use these tools. >> I'm trying to exclude other people, be a platform and be an ecosystem for the end users. >> Okay, so Mendelsohn who made the announcement said that Oracle's the smartphone of databases and I think, I actually think Alison kind of used that or maybe that was us planing to have, I thought he did like the iPhone of when he announced the exit data way back when the integrated hardware and software but is that how you see it, is Oracle, the smartphone of databases? >> It is, I mean, they are trying to own the complete stack, the hardware with the exit data all the way up to the databases at the data warehouses and the OLTP databases, the inference databases. They're trying to own the complete stack from top to bottom and that's what makes autonomy process possible. You can make it autonomous when you control all of that. Take away all of the requirements for IT in the business itself. So it's democratizing the use of data warehouses. It is pushing it out to the lines of business and it's simplifying it and making it possible to push out so that they can own their own data. They can manage their own data and they do not need an IT person from headquarters to help them. >> Let's stay in this a little bit more and then I want to go into some of the competitive stuff because Mendelsohn mentioned AWS several times. One of the things that struck me, he said, hey, we're basically one API 'cause we're doing analytics in the cloud, we're doing data in the cloud, we're doing integration in the cloud and that's sort of a big part of the value proposition. He made some comparisons to Redshift. Of course, I would say, if you can't find a workload where you beat your big competitor then you shouldn't be in this business. So I take those things with a grain of salt but one of the other things that caught me is that migrating from OnPrem to Oracle, Oracle Cloud was very simple and I think he might've made some comparisons to other platforms. And this to me is important because he also brought in that Gartner data. We looked at that Gardner data when they came out with it in the operational database class, Oracle smoked everybody. They were like way ahead and the reason why I think that's important is because let's face it, the Mission Critical Workloads, when you look at what's moving into AWS, the Mission Critical Workloads, the high performance, high criticality OLTP stuff. That's not moving in droves and you've made the point often that companies with their own cloud particularly, Oracle you've mentioned this about IBM for certain, DB2 for instance, customers are going to, there should be a lower risk environment moving from OnPrem to their cloud, because you could do, I don't think you could get Oracle RAC on AWS. For example, I don't think EXIF data is running in AWS data centers and so that like component is going to facilitate migration. What's your take on all that spiel? >> I think that's absolutely right. You all crown Jewels, the most expensive and the most valuable applications, the mission-critical applications. The ones that have got to take a beating, keep on taking. So those types of applications are where Oracle really shines. They own a very large high percentage of those Mission Critical Workloads and you have the choice if you're going to AWS, for example of either migrating to Oracle on AWS and that is frankly not a good fit at all. There're a lot of constraints to running large systems on AWS, large mission critical systems. So that's not an option and then the option, of course, that AWS will push is move to a Roller, change your way of writing applications, make them tiny little pieces and stitch them all together with microservices and that's okay if you're a small organization but that has got a lot of problems in its own, right? Because then you, the user have to stitch all those pieces together and you're responsible for testing it and you're responsible for looking after it. And that as you grow becomes a bigger and bigger overhead. So AWS, in my opinion needs to have a move towards a tier-one database of it's own and it's not in that position at the moment. >> Interesting, okay. So, let's talk about the competitive landscape and the choices that customers have. As I said, Mendelssohn mentioned AWS many times, Larry on the calls often take shy, it's a compliment to me. When Larry Ellison calls you out, that means you've made it, you're doing well. We've seen it over the years, whether it's IBM or Workday or Salesforce, even though Salesforce's big Oracle customer 'cause AWS, as we know are Oracle customer as well, even though AWS tells us they've off called when you peel the onion >> Five years should be great, some of the workers >> Well, as I said, I believe they're still using Oracle in certain workloads. Way, way, we digress. So AWS though, they take a different approach and I want to push on this a little bit with database. It's got more than a dozen, I think purpose-built databases. They take this kind of right tool for the right job approach was Oracle there converging all this function into a single database. SQL JSON graph databases, machine learning, blockchain. I'd love to talk about more about blockchain if we have time but seems to me that the right tool for the right job purpose-built, very granular down to the primitives and APIs. That seems to me to be a pretty viable approach versus kind of a Swiss Army approach. How do you compare the two? >> Yes, and it is to many initial programmers who are very interested for example, in graph databases or in time series databases. They are looking for a cheap database that will do the job for a particular project and that makes, for the program or for that individual piece of work is making a very sensible way of doing it and they pay for ads on it's clear cloud dynamics. The challenge as you have more and more data and as you're building up your data warehouse in your data lakes is that you do not want to have to move data from one place to another place. So for example, if you've got a Roller,, you have to move the database and it's a pretty complicated thing to do it, to move it to Redshift. It's a five or six steps to do that and each of those costs money and each of those take time. More importantly, they take time. The Oracle approach is a single database in terms of all the pieces that obviously you have multiple databases you have different OLTP databases and data warehouse databases but as a single architecture and a single design which means that all of the work in terms of moving stuff from one place to another place is within Oracle itself. It's Oracle that's doing that work for you and as you grow, that becomes very, very important. To me, very, very important, cost saving. The overhead of all those different ones and the databases themselves originate with all as open source and they've done very well with it and then there's a large revenue stream behind the, >> The AWS, you mean? >> Yes, the original database is in AWS and they've done a lot of work in terms of making it set with the panels, etc. But if a larger organization, especially very large ones and certainly if they want to combine, for example data warehouse with the OLTP and the inference which is in my opinion, a very good thing that they should be trying to do then that is incredibly difficult to do with AWS and in my opinion, AWS has to invest enormously in to make the whole ecosystem much better. >> Okay, so innovation required there maybe is part of the TAM expansion strategy but just to sort of digress for a second. So it seems like, and by the way, there are others that are doing, they're taking this converged approach. It seems like that is a trend. I mean, you certainly see it with single store. I mean, the name sort of implies that formerly MemSQL I think Monte Zweben of splice machine is probably headed in a similar direction, embedding AI in Microsoft's, kind of interesting. It seems like Microsoft is willing to build this abstraction layer that hides that complexity of the different tooling. AWS thus far has not taken that approach and then sort of looking at Snowflake, Snowflake's got a completely different, I think Snowflake's trying to do something completely different. I don't think they're necessarily trying to take Oracle head-on. I mean, they're certainly trying to just, I guess, let's talk about this. Snowflake simplified EDW, that's clear. Zero to snowflake in 90 minutes. It's got this data cloud vision. So you sign on to this Snowflake, speaking of layers they're abstracting the complexity of the underlying cloud. That's what the data cloud vision is all about. They, talk about this Global Mesh but they've not done a good job of explaining what the heck it is. We've been pushing them on that, but we got, >> Aspiration of moment >> Well, I guess, yeah, it seems that way. And so, but conceptually, it's I think very powerful but in reality, what snowflake is doing with data sharing, a lot of reading it's probably mostly read-only and I say, mostly read-only, oh, there you go. You'll get better but it's mostly read and so you're able to share the data, it's governed. I mean, it's exactly, quite genius how they've implemented this with its simplicity. It is a caching architecture. We've talked about that, we can geek out about that. There's good, there's bad, there's ugly but generally speaking, I guess my premise here I would love your thoughts. Is snowflakes trying to do something different? It's trying to be not just another data warehouse. It's not just trying to compete with data lakes. It's trying to create this data cloud to facilitate data sharing, put data in the hands of business owners in terms of a product build, data product builders. That's a different vision than anything I've seen thus far, your thoughts. >> I agree and even more going further, being a place where people can sell data. Put it up and make it available to whoever needs it and making it so simple that it can be shared across the country and across the world. I think it's a very powerful vision indeed. The challenge they have is that the pieces at the moment are very, very easy to use but the quality in terms of the, for example, joints, I mentioned, the joints were very powerful in Oracle. They don't try and do joints. They, they say >> They being Snowflake, snowflake. Yeah, they don't even write it. They would say use another Postgres >> Yeah. >> Database to do that. >> Yeah, so then they have a long way to go. >> Complex joints anyway, maybe simple joints, yeah. >> Complex joints, so they have a long way to go in terms of the functionality of their product and also in my opinion, they sure be going to have more types of databases inside it, including OLTP and they can do that. They have obviously got a great market gap and they can do that by acquisition as well as they can >> They've started. I think, I think they support JSON, right. >> Do they support JSON? And graph, I think there's a graph database that's either coming or it's there, I can't keep all that stuff in my head but there's no reason they can't go in that direction. I mean, in speaking to the founders in Snowflake they were like, look, we're kind of new. We would focus on simple. A lot of them came from Oracle so they know all database and they know how hard it is to do things like facilitate complex joints and do complex workload management and so they said, let's just simplify, we'll put it in the cloud and it will spin up a separate data warehouse. It's a virtual data warehouse every time you want one to. So that's how they handle those things. So different philosophy but again, coming back to some of the mission critical work and some of the larger Oracle customers, they said they have a thousand autonomous database customers. I think it was autonomous database, not ADW but anyway, a few stood out AON, lift, I think Deloitte stood out and as obviously, hundreds more. So we have people who misunderstand Oracle, I think. They got a big install base. They invest in R and D and they talk about lock-in sure but the CIO that I talked to and you talked to David, they're looking for business value. I would say that 75 to 80% of them will gravitate toward business value over the fear of lock-in and I think at the end of the day, they feel like, you know what? If our business is performing, it's a better business decision, it's a better business case. >> I fully agree, they've been very difficult to do business with in the past. Everybody's in dread of the >> The audit. >> The knock on the door from the auditor. >> Right. >> And that from a purchasing point of view has been really bad experience for many, many customers. The users of the database itself are very happy indeed. I mean, you talk to them and they understand why, what they're paying for. They understand the value and in terms of availability and all of the tools for complex multi-dimensional types of applications. It's pretty well, the only game in town. It's only DB2 and SQL that had any hope of doing >> Doing Microsoft, Microsoft SQL, right. >> Okay, SQL >> Which, okay, yeah, definitely competitive for sure. DB2, no IBM look, IBM lost its dominant position in database. They kind of seeded that. Oracle had to fight hard to win it. It wasn't obvious in the 80s who was going to be the database King and all had to fight. And to me, I always tell people the difference is that the chairman of Oracle is also the CTO. They spend money on R and D and they throw off a ton of cash. I want to say something about, >> I was just going to make one extra point. The simplicity and the capability of their cloud versions of all of this is incredibly good. They are better in terms of spending what you need or what you use much better than AWS, for example or anybody else. So they have really come full circle in terms of attractiveness in a cloud environment. >> You mean charging you for what you consume. Yeah, Mendelsohn talked about that. He made a big point about the granularity, you pay for only what you need. If you need 33 CPUs or the other databases you've got to shape, if you need 33, you've got to go to 64. I know that's true for everyone. I'm not sure if that's true too for snowflake. It may be, I got to dig into that a little bit, but maybe >> Yes, Snowflake has got a front end to hiding behind. >> Right, but I didn't want to push it that a little bit because I want to go look at their pricing strategies because I still think they make you buy, I may be wrong. I thought they make you still do a one-year or two-year or three-year term. I don't know if you can just turn it off at any time. They might allow, I should hold off. I'll do some more research on that but I wanted to make a point about the audits, you mentioned audits before. A big mistake that a lot of Oracle customers have made many times and we've written about this, negotiating with Oracle, you've got to bring your best and your brightest when you negotiate with Oracle. Some of the things that people didn't pay attention to and I think they've sort of caught onto this is that Oracle's SOW is adjudicate over the MSA, a lot of legal departments and procurement department. Oh, do we have an MSA? With all, Yes, you do, okay, great and because they think the MSA, they then can run. If they have an MSA, they can rubber stamp it but the SOW really dictateS and Oracle's gotcha there and they're really smart about that. So you got to bring your best and the brightest and you've got to really negotiate hard with Oracle, you get trouble. >> Sure. >> So it is what it is but coming back to Oracle, let's sort of wrap on this. Dominant position in mission critical, we saw that from the Gartner research, especially for operational, giant customer base, there's cloud-first notion, there's investing in R and D, open, we'll put a question Mark around that but hey, they're doing some cool stuff with Michael stuff. >> Ecosystem, I put that, ecosystem they're promoting their ecosystem. >> Yeah, and look, I mean, for a lot of their customers, we've talked to many, they say, look, there's actually, a tail at the tail way, this saves us money and we don't have to migrate. >> Yeah. So interesting, so I'll give you the last word. We started sort of focusing on the announcement. So what do you want to leave us with? >> My last word is that there are platforms with a certain key application or key parts of the infrastructure, which I think can differentiate themselves from the Azures or the AWS. and Oracle owns one of those, SAP might be another one but there are certain platforms which are big enough and important enough that they will, in my opinion will succeed in that cloud strategy for this. >> Great, David, thanks so much, appreciate your insights. >> Good to be here. Thank you for watching everybody, this is Dave Vellante for The Cube. We'll see you next time. (upbeat music)