the cloud has dramatically changed the way providers think about delivering database technologies not only has cloud first become a mandate for many if not most but customers are demanding more capabilities from their technology vendors examples include a substantially similar experience for cloud and on-prem workloads increased automation and a never-ending quest for more secure platforms broadly there are two prevailing models that have emerged one is to provide highly specialized database products that focus on optimizing for a specific workload signature the other end of the spectrum combines technologies in a converge platform to satisfy satisfy the needs of a much broader set of use cases and with me to get a perspective on these and other issues is andy mendelson is the executive vice president of oracle the world's leading database company andy leads database server technologies hello andy thanks for coming on hey dave glad to be here okay so we saw the recent announcements this is kind of your baby around next generation autonomous data warehouse maybe you could take us through the path you took from the original cloud data warehouses to where we are today yeah when we uh we first brought autonomous database out uh we were basically a second generation technology at that point you know we decided that what customers wanted was to the other you know the push of a button provision the really powerful oracle database technology that they've been using for years and um we did that with autonomous database and beyond that we provided a very unique capability that around self-tuning self-driving of the database which is something the first generation vendors didn't provide and this this is really important because customers today are you know developers and data analysts you know you know at the push of a button build out their their data warehouses but you know they're not experts in tuning and so what we thought was really important is that customers get great performance out of the box and that's one of the really unique things about autonomous data warehouse autonomous database in particular and then this latest generation that we just came out with also answers the questions we got from you know the data analysts and developers they said you know it's really great that i can press a button and provision this very powerful data warehouse infrastructure or database infrastructure from oracle but you know if i'm an analyst i want data you know so it's still hard for me to go and you know get data from various data sources transform them clean them up and get them to a way a place where i can start querying the data now i still need data engineers to help me do that and so we've done in the new release we said okay we want to give data analysts and data engineer data scientists developers is a true self-service experience where they can do their job completely without bringing in any you know any any engineers from their i.t organization and so that's what this new version is all about yeah awesome i mean look years ago you guys identified the i.t labor problem and you've been focused on r d and putting it in your r d to solve that problem for customers so we're really starting to see that hit now now gartner recently did some analysis they ranked and rated them some of the more popular cloud databases and oracle did very well i mean particularly particularly in operational categories i mean an operational side and the mission critical stuff you smoked everybody we had mark stamer and david floyer on and our big takeaways were that you're you're again dominating in that mission critical workloads that that that dominance continues but your approach of converging functionality really differs from some others that we saw i mean obviously when you get high ratings from gartner you're pretty stoked about that but what do you think contributed to those rankings and what are you finding specifically in customer interactions yeah so gardner does a lot of its analysis based on talking to customers finding out how their product these products that sound great on paper actually work in practice and i think that's one of the places where oracle database technology really shines it's it's uh it solves real-world problems um it's been doing it for a long time and as we've moved that technology into the cloud you know that continues you know the differentiation we've built up over the years really stands out you know you look at like amazon's databases they generally take some open source technology that isn't that new it could be 30 years old 25 years old and they put it up on the cloud and they say oh it's cloud native it's great but but in fact it's the same old you know technology that that doesn't really compete you know decade behind oracle's database technology so i think the gartner analysis really showed that sort of thing quite clearly yeah so let's talk about that a little bit because obviously i've learned a lot you know one of the things i've learned over the last many years of following this business a lot of ways to skin a cat and cloud database vendors if you think about you mentioned aws you know look at snowflake kind of right tool for the right job approach they're going to say that their specialty databases they're focused uh are better than your converged approach which they make you know think of as a you know swiss army knife what's your take on that yeah well the converged approach is something of course we've been working on for a long time so the the idea is pretty simple you know think about your smartphone you know if you can think back you know over 10 years ago used to have you know a camcorder and a a camera and a messaging device and also a dump phone device that all those different devices got converged into what we now call the smartphone why did the smartphone win it's just simply much more productive for you to carry one device around that that is actually best to breed in all the different categories instead of lots of separate devices and that's what we're doing with converge database over the years you know we've been able to build out technologies that are really good at transaction breasts at analytics for data warehousing now we're working on you know json technologies graph technologies the other vendors basically can't do this i mean it's much easier to build a specialty database that does one thing to build out a converged database that does end things really well and that's what we've been doing for years and again it's it's based on technology that uh you've invested in for quite a long time um and it's something that i think uh customers and developers and analyze analysts find to be a much more productive way of doing their jobs it's very unique and not common at all to see a technology that's been around as long as oracle database to see that sort of morph into a more modern platform i mean you mentioned aws uses leverages open source a lot you know snowflake would say okay hey we are born in the cloud and they are i think google bigquery would be another good example but but but that notion of boy i want to get your take on this born in the cloud those folks would say well we're superior to oracle's because you know they started you know decades ago not necessarily you know native cloud services uh how have you been able to address that i know you know cloud first is kind of the buzzword but but how have you you made that sort of transparent to users or or irrelevant to users because you are cloud first maybe you could talk about how you've able to achieve that and convince us that you actually really are cloud native now you know one of the things we we sort of like pointing out is that um oracle very uniquely has had this scale out technology for running all kinds of workloads not just analytic workloads which is what you see out in the cloud there but we can also scale out transaction processing workloads now that was another one of the reasons we do so well in for example the gardner analysis for trans operational workloads and that technology is really valuable as we went to cloud it lets us do some really unique things and the most obvious unique thing we we have is something we like to call you know you know cloud native you know instant elasticity and so with our technology if you want to provision a share you know some number of amount of compute to run your workloads you can provision exactly what you need you know if you need 17 cpus to get your job done you do 17 cpus when you provision your autonomous database our competitors who claim to be born in the cloud like snowflake and amazon they still use this this archaic way of provisioning uh servers based on shapes you know snowflake you know says what which shape cluster do you want you want 16 you want 32 you want 64. no it goes up by a power of 2 which means if you compare that to what oracle does you you have to provision up to like twice as much cpu than you really need so if you really need 17 they make you provision 32. if you really need 33 they make your provision 64. so this is not a cloud native experience at all it's an archaic way of doing things and and we like to point out with our instant elasticity you know we can go from 17 to 18 to 19 you know whatever you want plus we have something called auto scale so you can set your baseline to be 17 let's say but we will automatically based on your workload scale you up to three times that so in this case be 51 and because of that true elasticity we have we are really the only ones that can deliver true pay as you go kind of you know just pay for what you need kind of capability which is certainly what amazon was talking about when they first called their cloud elastic but it turns out for database services these guys still do this archaic thing with shapes so that's a really good example of where we're quite better than the other guys and it's much more cloud native than the other guys i want to follow up on that uh just stay here for a second because you're basically saying we have we have better granularity than the so-called cloud native guys now you mentioned snowflake right you got you got the shapes you got to you got to choose which shape you want and it sounds like it sounds like redshift the same and of course i know the way in which amazon separates compute from storage is largely a tiering exercise so it's not as as is as smooth as you might expect but nonetheless it's it's good how is it that you were you were able to achieve this with a database that was you know born you know many decades ago is it i mean what is it in from a technical standpoint an r d standpoint that you were able to do i mean did you design that in in the 1980s how did you how did you get here yeah well um it's a combination of interesting technologies so autonomous database you know it has the oracle database software that software is running on a very powerful optimized infrastructure for database based on the exadata technology that we've had on prem for many years we brought that to the cloud and that technology is a scale-out infrastructure that supports you know thousands of cpus and then we use our multi-tenant technology which is a way of sharing large infrastructures amongst amongst separate uh clients and we divide it up dynamically on the fly so if there's thousands of cpus you know this guy wants 20 and this one wants 30 we we divide it up and give them exactly what they need and if they want to grow we just take some extra cpus that are in reserve and we give it to them instantly and so that's a very different way of doing things and that's been a shape based approach where you know what what snowflake and amazon do under the covers they give you a real physical server you know or a cluster and that's how they provision if you want to grow they give you another big physical cluster which takes a long time to get the data populated to get it get it working we just have that one infrastructure that we're sharing among lots of users and we just give you a little extra capacity we don't it doesn't it's done instantly there's no need for data to be moved to populate the new clusters that you know snowflake or amazon are provisioning for you so it's a very different way of doing things and you're able to do that because of the tight integration between you mentioned exadata tight integration between the hardware and software we got david floyer calls it the iphone of enterprise sometimes sometimes you get some grief for that but it's it's not a bad metaphor but is that really the sort of secret well the big secret under the covers is this you know exudated technology our real application cluster scale out technologies our multi-tenant technologies so these are things we've been working on for a long time and they are very mature very powerful technologies and they really provide very unique benefits in a cloud world where people want things to happen instantly and they want to work well for any kind of workload um you know that's that's why we call we talk about being converged we can do mixed workloads you can do transactions and analytics all in the same data the other guys can't do that you know they're really good at like you said a narrow workload like i can do analytics or i can do graph you know i can do json but they can't really do the combination which is what real world applications are like they're not pure one thing versus enough right thank you for that so one of the questions people want to know is can oracle attract you know new customers that aren't existing oracle customers so maybe you could talk about that and you know why should uh somebody who's not an existing oracle customer think about using autonomous database yeah that's a that's a really good question you know oracle if you look at our customer base has a lot of really large enterprises you know the biggest banks and the biggest telcos you know they run oracle they run their businesses on oracle and these guys are sort of the most conservative of the bunch out there and they are moving to cloud at a somewhat slower rate than the than the smaller companies and so if you look at who's using autonomous database now it's actually the smaller companies you know the same type of people that first decided amazon was an interesting cloud 10 years ago they're also using our technologies and it's for the same reason they're finding you know they don't have large it organizations they don't have large numbers of engineers to engineer their infrastructure and that's why cloud is so attractive to them and autonomous database on top of cloud is really attractive as well because you know information is the lifeblood of every organization and if they can empower their analysts to get their job done without lots of help from it organizations they're going to do it and you know that's really what's made autonomous database really interesting you know the whole self-driving nature is very attractive to the smaller shops that don't have a lot of sophisticated um i.t expertise all right let's talk about developers you guys are the stewards of the java community so obviously you know big probably you know the biggest most popular programming language out there but when i think of developers i think of guys in hoodies pounding away but when i think of oracle developers i might think of maybe an app dev team inside of maybe some of those large customers that you talked about but why would developers and or analysts be interested in in using oracle as opposed to some some of those more focused narrow use databases that we were talking about earlier yeah so if you're a developer um you want to get your job done as fast as possible and so having a database that gives you the most productive application development experience is important to you and so you know i was talking we've been talking about converged database off and on so if i'm a developer i have a given job to do a converged database that lets me do a combination of analytics and and transactions and do a little json and little graph all in one is a much more productive place to go because if i if i i don't have something like that then i'm stuck taking my my application and breaking it up into pieces you know this piece i'm going to run on say aurora on amazon and this piece i have to run on the graph database and here's some json i got to run that on some document database and then i have to move the data around the data gets sort of fragmented between these databases and i have to do all this data you know integration and and whatever with a converged database i have a much simpler world where i can just use one technology stack i can get my job done and then i'm future proof against change you know requirements change all the time so you build the initial version of the application and your users say you know that this is not what i want i want some something else and it turns out that something else often is why i want analytics and you use something like a you know a document stored technology that has really poor analytic capabilities and then so you have to take that data and you have to move it to another database and so with with our converged approach you don't have to do that you know you're already in a place where everything works everything that you need you can possibly need in the future is going to be there as well and so for developers i i think you know converged is the right way to go plus for people who are what we call citizen developers you know like the data analysts that they cuddle they write a little code occasionally but they're really after getting value of the data we have this really fabulous no code loco tool called apex and apex is again a very mature technology it's been around for years and it lets somebody who's just a data analyst he knows a little sql but doesn't want to write code get their job done really fast and we've published some benchmark on our website showing you know basically you can get the job done 20 to 40 times faster using a no co loco tool like apex versus something like you know just writing cutting lots of traditional code i'm glad you brought up apex we recently interviewed one of your former colleagues amit xavery and all he would talk about is low code no code and then in the apex announcement you said something to the effect of coding should be the exception not the rule did you mean that what do you mean by that yeah so apex is a tool that people use with our our database technology for building what we call data driven applications so if you got a bunch of data and you want to get some value out of it you want to build maybe dashboards or more sophisticated reports apex is an incredible tool for doing that and it's it's modern you know it builds applications that look great on your smartphone and it automatically you know renders that same user interface on a bigger device like a laptop desktop device as well and uh it's very it's one of these things that uh the people that use it just go bonkers with it it's a viral technology they get really excited about how productive they they've been using it and they tell all their friends and i think we decided uh i guess about a year ago when we came up with this apex service that you know we really want to start going bigger on the marketing around it because it's very unique nobody else has anything quite like it and it's it again it just adds value to the whole developer productivity story around an oracle database so uh that's why we have the apex service now and we also have apex available with every oracle database on the cloud god i want to i want to ask you about some of the features around 21c there are a lot of them you announced earlier this year maybe you could tease out some of the top things that we should be paying attention to in 21c yeah sure um so one of the ways to look at 21c is we're we're continuing down this path of a converged database and so one of the the marquee features in 21c is something we call blockchain tables so what is blockchain well blockchain was this technology that's under the covers behind bitcoin you know it's a way of creating a tamper-proof data store um that was used by the original bitcoin algorithms well developers actually like having tamper proof data objects and databases too um you know and so what we decided to do was say well if i create a sql table in an oracle database what if there's a new option that just says i want that table implemented using blockchain technology to make the table tamper proof and fully audited etc and so we just did that and so in 21c you can now get a basically another feature of the converged database that says uh you know give me a sql table i can do everything i can query it i can insert rows into it but it's it's tamper proof i can't ever update it i can't delete rows from it amazon did the their usual thing they took again some open source technology and they said hey we got this great thing called quantum ledger database and it does blockchain tables but but if you want to do blockchain tables in any of their other databases you're out of luck they don't have it you have to go move the data into this new thing and it's again one of their it's again showing sort of the problem with their their proprietary this proprietary approach of having specialty databases versus just having one conversion that does it all so that's the blockchain cable feature uh we did a bunch of other things um the one i i think is worth mentioning the most is is support for persistent memory so a lot of people out there haven't noticed this this very interesting technology that intel shipped a couple years ago called optane data center memory and what it is it's basically a hybrid of flash memory which is persistent memory and standard dram which is not persistent means you can't store a database in dram um and so with this persistent memory you can basically have a database stored persistently in memory all the time and so it's a very innovative new technology from a database standpoint it's a very disruptive technology to the database market because now you can have an in-memory database basic period all the time 24 7. and so 21c is the first database out there that has native support for this new kind of persistent memory technology and we think it's it's really important so we're actually making it available as uh to our 19c customers as well and uh you know that's another technology i'd call out that we think is very unique we're way ahead of the game there and we're going to continue investing moving forward in that space as well yeah so that layer in between dram and and persistent flash that's that's a great innovation and good game changing from a from a performance and actually the way you write applications but i gotta i gotta ask you i and all the analysts were wrong with juan recently juan loyza and and to listen to that introduction of blockchain and everybody wants to know is safra going to start putting bitcoin on the oracle balance sheet i'm about to get that leap yeah that's a good question who knows yeah i can't comment on speculation ah that would be interesting okay last question then we got to go uh look oracle the narrative on oracle is you're expensive and you're mean you know it's hard to do business with do you care are you doing things to maybe change that perception in the cloud yeah i think we've made a very conscious decision that as we move to the cloud we're offering a totally new business model on the club that is a a cloud-native model you pay for what you use um you have everyday low prices you don't have to negotiate with some salesman for for months to get get a good price um so yeah we really like the message to get out there that those of you who think you know what oracle's all about um you know i and how it might be to work with oracle on in from your on premises days um you should really check out how oracle is now on the cloud we have this autonomous database technology really easy to use really simple any analysts can help get value out of the data without any help from any other engineers it's very unique it's it's uh it's the same technology you're used to but now it's delivered in a way that's much easier to consume and much lower cost and so yeah you should definitely take a look at what we've got out there on the cloud and it's all free to try out we got this free tier you can provision free vms free databases um free apex whatever you want and uh try it out and see what you think well thanks for that i was kidding about me and a lot of a lot of friends at oracle some relatives as well and thanks andy for coming on thecube today it's really great to talk to you yeah it's my pleasure and thanks for watching this is dave vellante we'll see you next time you

(upbeat music) Developers have become the new king makers in the world of digital and cloud. The rise of containers and microservices has accelerated the transition to cloud native applications. A lot of people will talk about application architecture and the related paradigms and the benefits they bring for the process of writing and delivering new apps. But a major challenge continues to be, the how and the what when it comes to accessing, processing and getting insights from the massive amounts of data that we have to deal with in today's world. And with me are two experts from the data management world who will share with us how they think about the best techniques and practices based on what they see at large organizations who are working with data and developing so-called data-driven apps. Please welcome Maria Colgan and Gerald Venzl, two distinguish product managers from Oracle. Folks, welcome, thanks so much for coming on. >> Thanks for having us Dave. >> Thank you very much for having us. >> Okay, Maria let's start with you. So, we throw around this term data-driven, data-driven applications. What are we really talking about there? >> So data-driven applications are applications that work on a diverse set of data. So anything from spatial to sensor data, document data as well as your usual transaction processing data. And what they're going to do is they'll generate value from that data in very different ways to a traditional application. So for example, they may use machine learning, they are able to do product recommendations in the middle of a transaction. Or we could use graph to be able to identify an influencer within the community so we can target them with a specific promotion. It could also use spatial data to be able to help find the nearest stores to a particular customer. And because these apps are deployed on multiple platforms, everything from mobile devices as well as standard browsers, they need a data platform that's going to be both secure, reliable and scalable. >> Well, so when you think about how the workloads are shifting I mean, we're not talking about, you know it's not anymore a world of just your ERP or your HCM or your CRM, you know kind of the traditional operational systems. You really are seeing an explosion of these new data oriented apps. You're seeing, you know, modeling in the cloud, you are going to see more and more inferencing, inferencing at the edge. But Maria maybe you could talk a little bit about sort of the benefits that customers are seeing from developing these types of applications. I mean, why should people care about data-driven apps? >> Oh, for sure, there's massive benefits to them. I mean, probably the most obvious one for any business regardless of the industry, is that they not only allow you to understand what your customers are up to, but they allow you to be able to anticipate those customer's needs. So that helps businesses maintain that competitive edge and retain their customers. But it also helps them make data-driven decisions in real time based on actual data rather than on somebody's gut feeling or basing those decisions on historical data. So for example, you can do real-time price adjustments on products based on demand and so forth, that kind of thing. So it really changes the way people do business today. >> So Gerald, you think about the narrative in the industry everybody wants to be a platform player all your customers they are becoming software companies, they are becoming platform players. Everybody wants to be like, you know name a company that is huge trillion dollar market cap or whatever, and those are data-driven companies. And so it would seem to me that data-driven applications, there's nobody, no company really shouldn't be data-driven. Do you buy that? >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, data-driven, and that naturally the whole industry is data-driven, right? It's like we all have information technologies about processing data and deriving information out of it. But when it comes to app development I think there is a big push to kind of like we have to do machine learning in our applications, we have to get insights from data. And when you actually look back a bit and take a step back, you see that there's of course many different kinds of applications out there as well that's not to be forgotten, right? So there is a usual front end user interfaces where really the application all it does is just entering some piece of information that's stored somewhere or perhaps a microservice that's not attached to a data to you at all but just receives or asks calls (indistinct). So I think it's not necessarily so important for every developer to kind of go on a bandwagon that they have to be data-driven. But I think it's equally important for those applications and those developers that build applications, that drive the business, that make business critical decisions as Maria mentioned before. Those guys should take really a close look into what data-driven apps means and what the data to you can actually give to them. Because what we see also happening a lot is that a lot of the things that are well known and out there just ready to use are being reimplemented in the applications. And for those applications, they essentially just ended up spending more time writing codes that will be already there and then have to maintain and debug the code as well rather than just going to market faster. >> Gerald can you talk to the prevailing approaches that developers take to build data-driven applications? What are the ones that you see? Let's dig into that a little bit more and maybe differentiate the different approaches and talk about that? >> Yeah, absolutely. I think right now the industry is like in two camps, it's like sort of a religious war going on that you'll see often happening with different architectures and so forth going on. So we have single purpose databases or data management technologies. Which are technologies that are as the name suggests build around a single purpose. So it's like, you know a typical example would be your ordinary key-value store. And a key-value store all it does is it allows you to store and retrieve a piece of data whatever that may be really, really fast but it doesn't really go beyond that. And then the other side of the house or the other camp would be multimodal databases, multimodal data management technologies. Those are technologies that allow you to store different types of data, different formats of data in the same technology in the same system alongside. And, you know, when you look at the geographics out there of what we have from technology, is pretty much any relational database or any database really has evolved into such a multimodal database. Whether that's MySQL that allows you to store or chase them alongside relational or even a MongoDB that allows you to do or gives you native graph support since (mumbles) and as well alongside the adjacent support. >> Well, it's clearly a trend in the industry. We've talked about this a lot in The Cube. We know where Oracle stands on this. I mean, you just mentioned MySQL but I mean, Oracle Databases you've been extending, you've mentioned JSON, we've got blockchain now in there you're infusing, you know ML and AI into the database, graph database capabilities, you know on and on and on. We talked a lot about we compared that to Amazon which is kind of the right tool, the right job approach. So maybe you could talk about, you know, your point of view, the benefits for developers of using that converged database if I can use that word approach being able to store multiple data formats? Why do you feel like that's a better approach? >> Yeah, I think on a high level it comes down to complexity. You are actually avoiding additional complexity, right? So not every use case that you have necessarily warrants to have yet another data management technology or yet the special build technology for managing that data, right? It's like many use cases that we see out there happily want to just store a piece of a chase and document, a piece of chase in a database and then perhaps retrieve it again afterwards so write some simple queries over it. And you really don't have to get a new database technology or a NoSQL database into the mix if you already have some to just fulfill that exact use case. You could just happily store that information as well in the database you already have. And what it really comes down to is the learning curve for developers, right? So it's like, as you use the same technology to store other types of data, you don't have to learn a new technology, you don't have to associate yourself with new and learn new drivers. You don't have to find new frameworks and you don't have to know how to necessarily operate or best model your data for that database. You can essentially just reuse your knowledge of the technology as well as the libraries and code you have already built in house perhaps in another application, perhaps, you know framework that you used against the same technology because it is still the same technology. So, kind of all comes down again to avoiding complexity rather than not fragmenting you know, the many different technologies we have. If you were to look at the different data formats that are out there today it's like, you know, you would end up with many different databases just to store them if you were to fully religiously follow the single purpose best built technology for every use case paradigm, right? And then you would just end up having to manage many different databases more than actually focusing on your app and getting value to your business or to your user. >> Okay, so I get that and I buy that by the way. I mean, especially if you're a larger organization and you've got all these projects going on but before we go back to Maria, Gerald, I want to just, I want to push on that a little bit. Because the counter to that argument would be in the analogy. And I wonder if you, I'd love for you to, you know knock this analogy off the blocks. The counter would be okay, Oracle is the Swiss Army knife and it's got, you know, all in one. But sometimes I need that specialized long screwdriver and I go into my toolbox and I grab that. It's better than the screwdriver in my Swiss Army knife. Why, are you the Swiss Army knife of databases? Or are you the all-in-one have that best of breed screwdriver for me? How do you think about that? >> Yeah, that's a fantastic question, right? And I think it's first of all, you have to separate between Oracle the company that has actually multiple data management technologies and databases out there as you said before, right? And Oracle Database. And I think Oracle Database is definitely a Swiss Army knife has many capabilities of since the last 40 years, you know that we've seen object support coming that's still in the Oracle Database today. We have seen XML coming, it's still in the Oracle Database, graph, spatial, et cetera. And so you have many different ways of managing your data and then on top of that going into the converge, not only do we allow you to store the different data model in there but we actually allow you also to, you apply all the security policies and so forth on top of it something Maria can talk more about the mission around converged database. I would also argue though that for some aspects, we do actually have to or add a screwdriver that you talked about as well. So especially in the relational world people get very quickly hung up on this idea that, oh, if you only do rows and columns, well, that's kind of what you put down on disk. And that was never true, it's the relational model is actually a logical model. What's probably being put down on disk is blocks that align themselves nice with block storage and always has been. So that allows you to actually model and process the data sort of differently. And one common example or one good example that we have that we introduced a couple of years ago was when, column and databases were very strong and you know, the competition came it's like, yeah, we have In-Memory column that stores now they're so much better. And we were like, well, orienting the data role-based or column-based really doesn't matter in the sense that we store them as blocks on disks. And so we introduced the in memory technology which gives you an In-Memory column, a representation of your data as well alongside your relational. So there is an example where you go like, well, actually you know, if you have this use case of the column or analytics all In-Memory, I would argue Oracle Database is also that screwdriver you want to go down to and gives you that capability. Because not only gives you representation in columnar, but also which many people then forget all the analytic power on top of SQL. It's one thing to store your data columnar, it's a completely different story to actually be able to run analytics on top of that and having all the built-in functionalities and stuff that you want to do with the data on top of it as you analyze it. >> You know, that's a great example, the kilometer 'cause I remember there was like a lot of hype around it. Oh, it's the Oracle killer, you know, at Vertica. Vertica is still around but, you know it never really hit escape velocity. But you know, good product, good company, whatever. Natezza, it kind of got buried inside of IBM. ParXL kind of became, you know, red shift with that deal so that kind of went away. Teradata bought a company, I forget which company it bought but. So that hype kind of disapated and now it's like, oh yeah, columnar. It's kind of like In-Memory, we've had a In-Memory databases ever since we've had databases you know, it's a kind of a feature not a sector. But anyway, Maria, let's come back to you. You've got a lot of customer experience. And you speak with a lot of companies, you know during your time at Oracle. What else are you seeing in terms of the benefits to this approach that might not be so intuitive and obvious right away? >> I think one of the biggest benefits to having a multimodel multiworkload or as we call it a converged database, is the fact that you can get greater data synergy from it. In other words, you can utilize all these different techniques and data models to get better value out of that data. So things like being able to do real-time machine learning, fraud detection inside a transaction or being able to do a product recommendation by accessing three different data models. So for example, if I'm trying to recommend a product for you Dave, I might use graph analytics to be able to figure out your community. Not just your friends, but other people on our system who look and behave just like you. Once I know that community then I can go over and see what products they bought by looking up our product catalog which may be stored as JSON. And then on top of that I can then see using the key-value what products inside that catalog those community members gave a five star rating to. So that way I can really pinpoint the right product for you. And I can do all of that in one transaction inside the database without having to transform that data into different models or God forbid, access different systems to be able to get all of that information. So it really simplifies how we can generate that value from the data. And of course, the other thing our customers love is when it comes to deploying data-driven apps, when you do it on a converged database it's much simpler because it is that standard data platform. So you're not having to manage multiple independent single purpose databases. You're not having to implement the security and the high availability policies, you know across a bunch of different diverse platforms. All of that can be done much simpler with a converged database 'cause the DBA team of course, is going to just use that standard set of tools to manage, monitor and secure those systems. >> Thank you for that. And you know, it's interesting, you talk about simplification and you are in Juan's organization so you've big focus on mission critical. And so one of the things that I think is often overlooked well, we talk about all the time is recovery. And if things are simpler, recovery is faster and easier. And so it's kind of the hallmark of Oracle is like the gold standard of the toughest apps, the most mission critical apps. But I wanted to get to the cloud Maria. So because everything is going to the cloud, right? Not all workloads are going to the cloud but everybody is talking about the cloud. Everybody has cloud first mentality and so yes, it's a hybrid world. But the natural next question is how do you think the cloud fits into this world of data-driven apps? >> I think just like any app that you're developing, the cloud helps to accelerate that development. And of course the deployment of these data-driven applications. 'Cause if you think about it, the developer is instantly able to provision a converged database that Oracle will automatically manage and look after for them. But what's great about doing something like that if you use like our autonomous database service is that it comes in different flavors. So you can get autonomous transaction processing, data warehousing or autonomous JSON so that the developer is going to get a database that's been optimized for their specific use case, whatever they are trying to solve. And it's also going to contain all of that great functionality and capabilities that we've been talking about. So what that really means to the developer though is as the project evolves and inevitably the business needs change a little, there's no need to panic when one of those changes comes in because your converged database or your autonomous database has all of those additional capabilities. So you can simply utilize those to able to address those evolving changes in the project. 'Cause let's face it, none of us normally know exactly what we need to build right at the very beginning. And on top of that they also kind of get a built-in buddy in the cloud, especially in the autonomous database. And that buddy comes in the form of built-in workload optimizations. So with the autonomous database we do things like automatic indexing where we're using machine learning to be that buddy for the developer. So what it'll do is it'll monitor the workload and see what kind of queries are being run on that system. And then it will actually determine if there are indexes that should be built to help improve the performance of that application. And not only does it bill those indexes but it verifies that they help improve the performance before publishing it to the application. So by the time the developer is finished with that app and it's ready to be deployed, it's actually also been optimized by the developers buddy, the Oracle autonomous database. So, you know, it's a really nice helping hand for developers when they're building any app especially data-driven apps. >> I like how you sort of gave us, you know the truth here is you don't always know where you're going when you're building an app. It's like it goes from you are trying to build it and they will come to start building it and we'll figure out where it's going to go. With Agile that's kind of how it works. But so I wonder, can you give some examples of maybe customers or maybe genericize them if you need to. Data-driven apps in the cloud where customers were able to drive more efficiency, where the cloud buddy allowed the customers to do more with less? >> No, we have tons of these but I'll try and keep it to just a couple. One that comes to mind straight away is retrace. These folks built a blockchain app in the Oracle Cloud that allows manufacturers to actually share the supply chain with the consumer. So the consumer can see exactly, who made their product? Using what raw materials? Where they were sourced from? How it was done? All of that is visible to the consumer. And in order to be able to share that they had to work on a very diverse set of data. So they had everything from JSON documents to images as well as your traditional transactions in there. And they store all of that information inside the Oracle autonomous database, they were able to build their app and deploy it on the cloud. And they were able to do all of that very, very quickly. So, you know, that ability to work on multiple different data types in a single database really helped them build that product and get it to market in a very short amount of time. Another customer that's doing something really, really interesting is MindSense. So these guys operate the largest mines in Canada, Chile, and Peru. But what they do is they put these x-ray devices on the massive mechanical shovels that are at the cove or at the mine face. And what that does is it senses the contents of the buckets inside these mining machines. And it's looking to see at that content, to see how it can optimize the processing of the ore inside in that bucket. So they're looking to minimize the amount of power and water that it's going to take to process that. And also of course, minimize the amount of waste that's going to come out of that project. So all of that sensor data is sent into an autonomous database where it's going to be processed by a whole host of different users. So everything from the mine engineers to the geo scientists, to even their own data scientists utilize that data to drive their business forward. And what I love about these guys is they're not happy with building just one app. MindSense actually use our built-in low core development environment, APEX that comes as part of the autonomous database and they actually produce applications constantly for different aspects of their business using that technology. And it's actually able to accelerate those new apps to the business. It takes them now just a couple of days or weeks to produce an app instead of months or years to build those new apps. >> Great, thank you for that Maria. Gerald, I'm going to push you again. So, I said upfront and talked about microservices and the cloud and containers and you know, anybody in the developer space follows that very closely. But some of the things that we've been talking about here people might look at that and say, well, they're kind of antithetical to microservices. This is our Oracles monolithic approach. But when you think about the benefits of microservices, people want freedom of choice, technology choice, seen as a big advantage of microservices and containers. How do you address such an argument? >> Yeah, that's an excellent question and I get that quite often. The microservices architecture in general as I said before had architectures, Linux distributions, et cetera. It's kind of always a bit of like there's an academic approach and there's a pragmatic approach. And when you look at the microservices the original definitions that came out at the early 2010s. They actually never said that each microservice has to have a database. And they also never said that if a microservice has a database, you have to use a different technology for each microservice. Just like they never said, you have to write a microservice in a different programming language, right? So where I'm going with this is like, yes you know, sometimes when you look at some vendors out there, some niche players, they push this message or they jump on this academic approach of like each microservice has the best tool at hand or I'd use a different database for your purpose, et cetera. Which almost often comes across like us. You know, we want to stay part of the conversation. Nothing stops a developer from, you know using a multimodal database for the microservice and just using that as a document store, right? Or just using that as a relational database. And, you know, sometimes I mean, it was actually something that happened that was really interesting yesterday I don't know whether you follow Dave or not. But Facebook had an outage yesterday, right? And Facebook is one of those companies that are seen as the Silicon Valley, you know know how to do microservices companies. And when you add through the outage, well, what happened, right? Some unfortunate logical error with configuration as a force that took a database cluster down. So, you know, there you have it where you go like, well, maybe not every microservice is actually in fact talking to its own database or its own special purpose database. I think there, you know, well, what we should, the industry should be focusing much more on this argument of which technology to use? What's the right tool for a job? Is more to ask themselves, what business problem actually are we trying to solve? And therefore what's the right approach and the right technology for this. And so therefore, just as I said before, you know multimodal databases they do have strong benefits. They have many built-in functionalities that are already there and they allow you to reduce this complexity of having to know many different technologies, right? And so it's not only to store different data models either you know, treat a multimodal database as a chasing documents store or a relational database but most databases are multimodal since 20 plus years. But it's also actually being able to perhaps if you store that data together, you can perhaps actually derive additional value for somebody else but perhaps not for your application. But like for example, if you were to use Oracle Database you can actually write queries on top of all of that data. It doesn't really matter for our query engine whether it's the data is format that then chase or the data is formatted in rows and columns you can just rather than query over it. And that's actually very powerful for those guys that have to, you know get the reporting done the end of the day, the end of the week. And for those guys that are the data scientists that they want to figure out, you know which product performed really well or can we tweak something here and there. When you look into that space you still see a huge divergence between the guys to put data in kind of the altarpiece style and guys that try to derive new insights. And there's still a lot of ETL going around and, you know we have big data technologies that some of them come and went and some of them came in that are still around like Apache Spark which is still like a SQL engine on top of any of your data kind of going back to the same concept. And so I will say that, you know, for developers when we look at microservices it's like, first of all, is the argument you were making because the vendor or the technology you want to use tells you this argument or, you know, you kind of want to have an argument to use a specific technology? Or is it really more because it is the best technology, to best use for this given use case for this given application that you have? And if so there's of course, also nothing wrong to use a single purpose technology either, right? >> Yeah, I mean, whenever I talk about Oracle I always come back to the most important applications, the mission critical. It's very difficult to architect databases with microservices and containers. You have to be really, really careful. And so and again, it comes back to what we were talking before about with Maria that the complexity and the recovery. But Gerald I want to stay with you for a minute. So there's other data management technologies popping out there. I mean, I've seen some people saying, okay just leave the data in an S3 bucket. We can query that, then we've got some magic sauce to do that. And so why are you optimistic about you know, traditional database technology going forward? >> I would say because of the history of databases. So one thing that once struck me when I came to Oracle and then got to meet great people like Juan Luis and Andy Mendelsohn who had been here for a long, long time. I come to realization that relational databases are around for about 45 years now. And, you know, I was like, I'm too young to have been around then, right? So I was like, what else was around 45 years? It's like just the tech stack that we have today. It's like, how does this look like? Well, Linux only came out in 93. Well, databases pre-date Linux a lot rather than as I started digging I saw a lot of technologies come and go, right? And you mentioned before like the technologies that data management systems that we had that came and went like the columnar databases or XML databases, object databases. And even before relational databases before Cot gave us the relational model there were apparently these networks stores network databases which to some extent look very similar to adjacent documents. There wasn't a harder storing data and a hierarchy to format. And, you know when you then start actually reading the Cot paper and diving a little bit more into the relation model, that's I think one important crux in there that most of the industry keeps forgetting or it hasn't been around to even know. And that is that when Cot created the relational model, he actually focused not so much on the application putting the data in, but on future users and applications still being able to making sense out of the data, right? And that's kind of like I said before we had those network models, we had XML databases you have adjacent documents stores. And the one thing that they all have along with it is like the application that puts the data in decides the structure of the data. And that's all well and good if you had an application of the developer writing an application. It can become really tricky when 10 years later you still want to look at that data and the application that the developer is no longer around then you go like, what does this all mean? Where is the structure defined? What is this attribute? What does it mean? How does it correlate to others? And the one thing that people tend to forget is that it's actually the data that's here to stay not someone who does the applications where it is. Ideally, every company wants to store every single byte of data that they have because there might be future value in it. Economically may not make sense that's now much more feasible than just years ago. But if you could, why wouldn't you want to store all your data, right? And sometimes you actually have to store the data for seven years or whatever because the laws require you to. And so coming back then and you know, like 10 years from now and looking at the data and going like making sense of that data can actually become a lot more difficult and a lot more challenging than having to first figure out and how we store this data for general use. And that kind of was what the relational model was all about. We decompose the data structures into tables and columns with relationships amongst each other so therefore between each other. So that therefore if somebody wants to, you know typical example would be well you store some purchases from your web store, right? There's a customer attribute in it. There's some credit card payment information in it, just some product information on what the customer bought. Well, in the relational model if you just want to figure out which products were sold on a given day or week, you just would query the payment and products table to get the sense out of it. You don't need to touch the customer and so forth. And with the hierarchical model you have to first sit down and understand how is the structure, what is the customer? Where is the payment? You know, does the document start with the payment or does it start with the customer? Where do I find this information? And then in the very early days those databases even struggled to then not having to scan all the documents to get the data out. So coming back to your question a bit, I apologize for going on here. But you know, it's like relational databases have been around for 45 years. I actually argue it's one of the most successful software technologies that we have out there when you look in the overall industry, right? 45 years is like, in IT terms it's like from a star being the ones who are going supernova. You have said it before that many technologies coming and went, right? And just want to add a more really interesting example by the way is Hadoop and HDFS, right? They kind of gave us this additional promise of like, you know, the 2010s like 2012, 2013 the hype of Hadoop and so forth and (mumbles) and HDFS. And people are just like, just put everything into HDFS and worry about the data later, right? And we can query it and map reduce it and whatever. And we had customers actually coming to us they were like, great we have half a petabyte of data on an HDFS cluster and we have no clue what's stored in there. How do we figure this out? What are we going to do now? Now you had a big data cleansing problem. And so I think that is why databases and also data modeling is something that will not go away anytime soon. And I think databases and database technologies are here for quite a while to stay. Because many of those are people they don't think about what's happening to the data five years from now. And many of the niche players also and also frankly even Amazon you know, following with this single purpose thing is like, just use the right tool for the job for your application, right? Just pull in the data there the way you wanted. And it's like, okay, so you use technologies all over the place and then five years from now you have your data fragmented everywhere in different formats and, you know inconsistencies, and, and, and. And those are usually when you come back to this data-driven business critical business decision applications the worst case scenario you can have, right? Because now you need an army of people to actually do data cleansing. And there's not a coincidence that data science has become very, very popular the last recent years as we kind of went on with this proliferation of different database or data management technologies some of those are not even database. But I think I leave it at that. >> It's an interesting talk track because you're right. I mean, no schema on right was alluring, but it definitely created some problems. It also created an entire, you know you referenced the hyper specialized roles and did the data cleansing component. I mean, maybe technology will eventually solve that problem but it hasn't up at least up tonight. Okay, last question, Maria maybe you could start off and Gerald if you want to chime in as well it'd be great. I mean, it's interesting to watch this industry when Oracle sort of won the top database mantle. I mean, I watched it, I saw it. It was, remember it was Informix and it was (indistinct) too and of course, Microsoft you got to give them credit with SQL server, but Oracle won the database wars. And then everything got kind of quiet for awhile database was sort of boring. And then it exploded, you know, all the, you know not only SQL and the key-value stores and the cloud databases and this is really a hot area now. And when we looked at Oracle we said, okay, Oracle it's all about Oracle Database, but we've seen the kind of resurgence in MySQL which everybody thought, you know once Oracle bought Sun they were going to kill MySQL. But now we see you investing in HeatWave, TimesTen, we talked about In-Memory databases before. So where do those fit in Maria in the grand scheme? How should we think about Oracle's database portfolio? >> So there's lots of places where you'd use those different things. 'Cause just like any other industry there are going to be new and boutique use cases that are going to benefit from a more specialized product or single purpose product. So good examples off the top of my head of the kind of systems that would benefit from that would be things like a stock exchange system or a telephone exchange system. Both of those are latency critical transaction processing applications where they need microsecond response times. And that's going to exceed perhaps what you might normally get or deploy with a converged database. And so Oracle's TimesTen database our In-Memory database is perfect for those kinds of applications. But there's also a host of MySQL applications out there today and you said it yourself there Dave, HeatWave is a great place to provision and deploy those kinds of applications because it's going to run 100 times faster than AWS (mumbles). So, you know, there really is a place in the market and in our customer's systems and the needs they have for all of these different members of our database family here at Oracle. >> Yeah, well, the internet is basically running in the lamp stack so I see MySQL going away. All right Gerald, will give you the final word, bring us home. >> Oh, thank you very much. Yeah, I mean, as Maria said, I think it comes back to what we discussed before. There is obviously still needs for special technologies or different technologies than a relational database or multimodal database. Oracle has actually many more databases that people may first think of. Not only the three that we have already mentioned but there's even SP so the Oracle's NoSQL database. And, you know, on a high level Oracle is a data management company, right? And we want to give our customers the best tools and the best technology to manage all of their data. Rather than therefore there has to be a need or there should be a part of the business that also focuses on this highly specialized systems and this highly specialized technologies that address those use cases. And I think it makes perfect sense. It's like, you know, when the customer comes to Oracle they're not only getting this, take this one product you know, and if you don't like it your problem but actually you have choice, right? And choice allows you to make a decision based on what's best for you and not necessarily best for the vendor you're talking to. >> Well guys, really appreciate your time today and your insights. Maria, Gerald, thanks so much for coming on The Cube. >> Thank you very much for having us. >> And thanks for watching this Cube conversation this is Dave Vellante and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> It'll be five, four, three and then silent two, one, and then you guys just follow my lead. We're just making some last minute adjustments. Like I said, we're down two hands today. So, you good Alex? Okay, are you guys ready? >> I'm ready. >> Ready. >> I got to get get one note here. >> So I noticed Maria you stopped anyway, so I have time. >> Just so they know Dave and the Boston Studio, are they both kind of concurrently be on film even when they're not speaking or will only the speaker be on film for like if Gerald's drawing while Maria is talking about-- >> Sorry but then I missed one part of my onboarding spiel. There should be, if you go into gallery there should be a label. There should be something labeled Boston live switch feed. If you pin that gallery view you'll see what our program currently being recorded is. So any time you don't see yourself on that feed is an excellent time to take a drink of water, scratch your nose, check your notes. Do whatever you got to do off screen. >> Can you give us a three shot, Alex? >> Yes, there it is. >> And then go to me, just give me a one-shot to Dave. So when I'm here you guys can take a drink or whatever >> That makes sense? >> Yeah. >> Excellent, I will get my recordings restarted and we'll open up when Dave's ready. >> All right, you guys ready? >> Ready. >> All right Steve, you go on mute. >> Okay, on me in 5, 4, 3. Developers have become the new king makers in the world of digital and cloud. The rise of containers and microservices has accelerated the transition to cloud native applications. A lot of people will talk about application architecture and the related paradigms and the benefits they bring for the process of writing and delivering new apps. But a major challenge continues to be, the how and the what when it comes to accessing, processing and getting insights from the massive amounts of data that we have to deal with in today's world. And with me are two experts from the data management world who will share with us how they think about the best techniques and practices based on what they see at large organizations who are working with data and developing so-called data-driven apps. Please welcome Maria Colgan and Gerald Venzl, two distinguish product managers from Oracle. Folks, welcome, thanks so much for coming on. >> Thanks for having us Dave. >> Thank you very much for having us. >> Okay, Maria let's start with you. So, we throw around this term data-driven, data-driven applications. What are we really talking about there? >> So data-driven applications are applications that work on a diverse set of data. So anything from spatial to sensor data, document data as well as your usual transaction processing data. And what they're going to do is they'll generate value from that data in very different ways to a traditional application. So for example, they may use machine learning, they are able to do product recommendations in the middle of a transaction. Or we could use graph to be able to identify an influencer within the community so we can target them with a specific promotion. It could also use spatial data to be able to help find the nearest stores to a particular customer. And because these apps are deployed on multiple platforms, everything from mobile devices as well as standard browsers, they need a data platform that's going to be both secure, reliable and scalable. >> Well, so when you think about how the workloads are shifting I mean, we're not talking about, you know it's not anymore a world of just your ERP or your HCM or your CRM, you know kind of the traditional operational systems. You really are seeing an explosion of these new data oriented apps. You're seeing, you know, modeling in the cloud, you are going to see more and more inferencing, inferencing at the edge. But Maria maybe you could talk a little bit about sort of the benefits that customers are seeing from developing these types of applications. I mean, why should people care about data-driven apps? >> Oh, for sure, there's massive benefits to them. I mean, probably the most obvious one for any business regardless of the industry, is that they not only allow you to understand what your customers are up to, but they allow you to be able to anticipate those customer's needs. So that helps businesses maintain that competitive edge and retain their customers. But it also helps them make data-driven decisions in real time based on actual data rather than on somebody's gut feeling or basing those decisions on historical data. So for example, you can do real-time price adjustments on products based on demand and so forth, that kind of thing. So it really changes the way people do business today. >> So Gerald, you think about the narrative in the industry everybody wants to be a platform player all your customers they are becoming software companies, they are becoming platform players. Everybody wants to be like, you know name a company that is huge trillion dollar market cap or whatever, and those are data-driven companies. And so it would seem to me that data-driven applications, there's nobody, no company really shouldn't be data-driven. Do you buy that? >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, data-driven, and that naturally the whole industry is data-driven, right? It's like we all have information technologies about processing data and deriving information out of it. But when it comes to app development I think there is a big push to kind of like we have to do machine learning in our applications, we have to get insights from data. And when you actually look back a bit and take a step back, you see that there's of course many different kinds of applications out there as well that's not to be forgotten, right? So there is a usual front end user interfaces where really the application all it does is just entering some piece of information that's stored somewhere or perhaps a microservice that's not attached to a data to you at all but just receives or asks calls (indistinct). So I think it's not necessarily so important for every developer to kind of go on a bandwagon that they have to be data-driven. But I think it's equally important for those applications and those developers that build applications, that drive the business, that make business critical decisions as Maria mentioned before. Those guys should take really a close look into what data-driven apps means and what the data to you can actually give to them. Because what we see also happening a lot is that a lot of the things that are well known and out there just ready to use are being reimplemented in the applications. And for those applications, they essentially just ended up spending more time writing codes that will be already there and then have to maintain and debug the code as well rather than just going to market faster. >> Gerald can you talk to the prevailing approaches that developers take to build data-driven applications? What are the ones that you see? Let's dig into that a little bit more and maybe differentiate the different approaches and talk about that? >> Yeah, absolutely. I think right now the industry is like in two camps, it's like sort of a religious war going on that you'll see often happening with different architectures and so forth going on. So we have single purpose databases or data management technologies. Which are technologies that are as the name suggests build around a single purpose. So it's like, you know a typical example would be your ordinary key-value store. And a key-value store all it does is it allows you to store and retrieve a piece of data whatever that may be really, really fast but it doesn't really go beyond that. And then the other side of the house or the other camp would be multimodal databases, multimodal data management technologies. Those are technologies that allow you to store different types of data, different formats of data in the same technology in the same system alongside. And, you know, when you look at the geographics out there of what we have from technology, is pretty much any relational database or any database really has evolved into such a multimodal database. Whether that's MySQL that allows you to store or chase them alongside relational or even a MongoDB that allows you to do or gives you native graph support since (mumbles) and as well alongside the adjacent support. >> Well, it's clearly a trend in the industry. We've talked about this a lot in The Cube. We know where Oracle stands on this. I mean, you just mentioned MySQL but I mean, Oracle Databases you've been extending, you've mentioned JSON, we've got blockchain now in there you're infusing, you know ML and AI into the database, graph database capabilities, you know on and on and on. We talked a lot about we compared that to Amazon which is kind of the right tool, the right job approach. So maybe you could talk about, you know, your point of view, the benefits for developers of using that converged database if I can use that word approach being able to store multiple data formats? Why do you feel like that's a better approach? >> Yeah, I think on a high level it comes down to complexity. You are actually avoiding additional complexity, right? So not every use case that you have necessarily warrants to have yet another data management technology or yet the special build technology for managing that data, right? It's like many use cases that we see out there happily want to just store a piece of a chase and document, a piece of chase in a database and then perhaps retrieve it again afterwards so write some simple queries over it. And you really don't have to get a new database technology or a NoSQL database into the mix if you already have some to just fulfill that exact use case. You could just happily store that information as well in the database you already have. And what it really comes down to is the learning curve for developers, right? So it's like, as you use the same technology to store other types of data, you don't have to learn a new technology, you don't have to associate yourself with new and learn new drivers. You don't have to find new frameworks and you don't have to know how to necessarily operate or best model your data for that database. You can essentially just reuse your knowledge of the technology as well as the libraries and code you have already built in house perhaps in another application, perhaps, you know framework that you used against the same technology because it is still the same technology. So, kind of all comes down again to avoiding complexity rather than not fragmenting you know, the many different technologies we have. If you were to look at the different data formats that are out there today it's like, you know, you would end up with many different databases just to store them if you were to fully religiously follow the single purpose best built technology for every use case paradigm, right? And then you would just end up having to manage many different databases more than actually focusing on your app and getting value to your business or to your user. >> Okay, so I get that and I buy that by the way. I mean, especially if you're a larger organization and you've got all these projects going on but before we go back to Maria, Gerald, I want to just, I want to push on that a little bit. Because the counter to that argument would be in the analogy. And I wonder if you, I'd love for you to, you know knock this analogy off the blocks. The counter would be okay, Oracle is the Swiss Army knife and it's got, you know, all in one. But sometimes I need that specialized long screwdriver and I go into my toolbox and I grab that. It's better than the screwdriver in my Swiss Army knife. Why, are you the Swiss Army knife of databases? Or are you the all-in-one have that best of breed screwdriver for me? How do you think about that? >> Yeah, that's a fantastic question, right? And I think it's first of all, you have to separate between Oracle the company that has actually multiple data management technologies and databases out there as you said before, right? And Oracle Database. And I think Oracle Database is definitely a Swiss Army knife has many capabilities of since the last 40 years, you know that we've seen object support coming that's still in the Oracle Database today. We have seen XML coming, it's still in the Oracle Database, graph, spatial, et cetera. And so you have many different ways of managing your data and then on top of that going into the converge, not only do we allow you to store the different data model in there but we actually allow you also to, you apply all the security policies and so forth on top of it something Maria can talk more about the mission around converged database. I would also argue though that for some aspects, we do actually have to or add a screwdriver that you talked about as well. So especially in the relational world people get very quickly hung up on this idea that, oh, if you only do rows and columns, well, that's kind of what you put down on disk. And that was never true, it's the relational model is actually a logical model. What's probably being put down on disk is blocks that align themselves nice with block storage and always has been. So that allows you to actually model and process the data sort of differently. And one common example or one good example that we have that we introduced a couple of years ago was when, column and databases were very strong and you know, the competition came it's like, yeah, we have In-Memory column that stores now they're so much better. And we were like, well, orienting the data role-based or column-based really doesn't matter in the sense that we store them as blocks on disks. And so we introduced the in memory technology which gives you an In-Memory column, a representation of your data as well alongside your relational. So there is an example where you go like, well, actually you know, if you have this use case of the column or analytics all In-Memory, I would argue Oracle Database is also that screwdriver you want to go down to and gives you that capability. Because not only gives you representation in columnar, but also which many people then forget all the analytic power on top of SQL. It's one thing to store your data columnar, it's a completely different story to actually be able to run analytics on top of that and having all the built-in functionalities and stuff that you want to do with the data on top of it as you analyze it. >> You know, that's a great example, the kilometer 'cause I remember there was like a lot of hype around it. Oh, it's the Oracle killer, you know, at Vertica. Vertica is still around but, you know it never really hit escape velocity. But you know, good product, good company, whatever. Natezza, it kind of got buried inside of IBM. ParXL kind of became, you know, red shift with that deal so that kind of went away. Teradata bought a company, I forget which company it bought but. So that hype kind of disapated and now it's like, oh yeah, columnar. It's kind of like In-Memory, we've had a In-Memory databases ever since we've had databases you know, it's a kind of a feature not a sector. But anyway, Maria, let's come back to you. You've got a lot of customer experience. And you speak with a lot of companies, you know during your time at Oracle. What else are you seeing in terms of the benefits to this approach that might not be so intuitive and obvious right away? >> I think one of the biggest benefits to having a multimodel multiworkload or as we call it a converged database, is the fact that you can get greater data synergy from it. In other words, you can utilize all these different techniques and data models to get better value out of that data. So things like being able to do real-time machine learning, fraud detection inside a transaction or being able to do a product recommendation by accessing three different data models. So for example, if I'm trying to recommend a product for you Dave, I might use graph analytics to be able to figure out your community. Not just your friends, but other people on our system who look and behave just like you. Once I know that community then I can go over and see what products they bought by looking up our product catalog which may be stored as JSON. And then on top of that I can then see using the key-value what products inside that catalog those community members gave a five star rating to. So that way I can really pinpoint the right product for you. And I can do all of that in one transaction inside the database without having to transform that data into different models or God forbid, access different systems to be able to get all of that information. So it really simplifies how we can generate that value from the data. And of course, the other thing our customers love is when it comes to deploying data-driven apps, when you do it on a converged database it's much simpler because it is that standard data platform. So you're not having to manage multiple independent single purpose databases. You're not having to implement the security and the high availability policies, you know across a bunch of different diverse platforms. All of that can be done much simpler with a converged database 'cause the DBA team of course, is going to just use that standard set of tools to manage, monitor and secure those systems. >> Thank you for that. And you know, it's interesting, you talk about simplification and you are in Juan's organization so you've big focus on mission critical. And so one of the things that I think is often overlooked well, we talk about all the time is recovery. And if things are simpler, recovery is faster and easier. And so it's kind of the hallmark of Oracle is like the gold standard of the toughest apps, the most mission critical apps. But I wanted to get to the cloud Maria. So because everything is going to the cloud, right? Not all workloads are going to the cloud but everybody is talking about the cloud. Everybody has cloud first mentality and so yes, it's a hybrid world. But the natural next question is how do you think the cloud fits into this world of data-driven apps? >> I think just like any app that you're developing, the cloud helps to accelerate that development. And of course the deployment of these data-driven applications. 'Cause if you think about it, the developer is instantly able to provision a converged database that Oracle will automatically manage and look after for them. But what's great about doing something like that if you use like our autonomous database service is that it comes in different flavors. So you can get autonomous transaction processing, data warehousing or autonomous JSON so that the developer is going to get a database that's been optimized for their specific use case, whatever they are trying to solve. And it's also going to contain all of that great functionality and capabilities that we've been talking about. So what that really means to the developer though is as the project evolves and inevitably the business needs change a little, there's no need to panic when one of those changes comes in because your converged database or your autonomous database has all of those additional capabilities. So you can simply utilize those to able to address those evolving changes in the project. 'Cause let's face it, none of us normally know exactly what we need to build right at the very beginning. And on top of that they also kind of get a built-in buddy in the cloud, especially in the autonomous database. And that buddy comes in the form of built-in workload optimizations. So with the autonomous database we do things like automatic indexing where we're using machine learning to be that buddy for the developer. So what it'll do is it'll monitor the workload and see what kind of queries are being run on that system. And then it will actually determine if there are indexes that should be built to help improve the performance of that application. And not only does it bill those indexes but it verifies that they help improve the performance before publishing it to the application. So by the time the developer is finished with that app and it's ready to be deployed, it's actually also been optimized by the developers buddy, the Oracle autonomous database. So, you know, it's a really nice helping hand for developers when they're building any app especially data-driven apps. >> I like how you sort of gave us, you know the truth here is you don't always know where you're going when you're building an app. It's like it goes from you are trying to build it and they will come to start building it and we'll figure out where it's going to go. With Agile that's kind of how it works. But so I wonder, can you give some examples of maybe customers or maybe genericize them if you need to. Data-driven apps in the cloud where customers were able to drive more efficiency, where the cloud buddy allowed the customers to do more with less? >> No, we have tons of these but I'll try and keep it to just a couple. One that comes to mind straight away is retrace. These folks built a blockchain app in the Oracle Cloud that allows manufacturers to actually share the supply chain with the consumer. So the consumer can see exactly, who made their product? Using what raw materials? Where they were sourced from? How it was done? All of that is visible to the consumer. And in order to be able to share that they had to work on a very diverse set of data. So they had everything from JSON documents to images as well as your traditional transactions in there. And they store all of that information inside the Oracle autonomous database, they were able to build their app and deploy it on the cloud. And they were able to do all of that very, very quickly. So, you know, that ability to work on multiple different data types in a single database really helped them build that product and get it to market in a very short amount of time. Another customer that's doing something really, really interesting is MindSense. So these guys operate the largest mines in Canada, Chile, and Peru. But what they do is they put these x-ray devices on the massive mechanical shovels that are at the cove or at the mine face. And what that does is it senses the contents of the buckets inside these mining machines. And it's looking to see at that content, to see how it can optimize the processing of the ore inside in that bucket. So they're looking to minimize the amount of power and water that it's going to take to process that. And also of course, minimize the amount of waste that's going to come out of that project. So all of that sensor data is sent into an autonomous database where it's going to be processed by a whole host of different users. So everything from the mine engineers to the geo scientists, to even their own data scientists utilize that data to drive their business forward. And what I love about these guys is they're not happy with building just one app. MindSense actually use our built-in low core development environment, APEX that comes as part of the autonomous database and they actually produce applications constantly for different aspects of their business using that technology. And it's actually able to accelerate those new apps to the business. It takes them now just a couple of days or weeks to produce an app instead of months or years to build those new apps. >> Great, thank you for that Maria. Gerald, I'm going to push you again. So, I said upfront and talked about microservices and the cloud and containers and you know, anybody in the developer space follows that very closely. But some of the things that we've been talking about here people might look at that and say, well, they're kind of antithetical to microservices. This is our Oracles monolithic approach. But when you think about the benefits of microservices, people want freedom of choice, technology choice, seen as a big advantage of microservices and containers. How do you address such an argument? >> Yeah, that's an excellent question and I get that quite often. The microservices architecture in general as I said before had architectures, Linux distributions, et cetera. It's kind of always a bit of like there's an academic approach and there's a pragmatic approach. And when you look at the microservices the original definitions that came out at the early 2010s. They actually never said that each microservice has to have a database. And they also never said that if a microservice has a database, you have to use a different technology for each microservice. Just like they never said, you have to write a microservice in a different programming language, right? So where I'm going with this is like, yes you know, sometimes when you look at some vendors out there, some niche players, they push this message or they jump on this academic approach of like each microservice has the best tool at hand or I'd use a different database for your purpose, et cetera. Which almost often comes across like us. You know, we want to stay part of the conversation. Nothing stops a developer from, you know using a multimodal database for the microservice and just using that as a document store, right? Or just using that as a relational database. And, you know, sometimes I mean, it was actually something that happened that was really interesting yesterday I don't know whether you follow Dave or not. But Facebook had an outage yesterday, right? And Facebook is one of those companies that are seen as the Silicon Valley, you know know how to do microservices companies. And when you add through the outage, well, what happened, right? Some unfortunate logical error with configuration as a force that took a database cluster down. So, you know, there you have it where you go like, well, maybe not every microservice is actually in fact talking to its own database or its own special purpose database. I think there, you know, well, what we should, the industry should be focusing much more on this argument of which technology to use? What's the right tool for a job? Is more to ask themselves, what business problem actually are we trying to solve? And therefore what's the right approach and the right technology for this. And so therefore, just as I said before, you know multimodal databases they do have strong benefits. They have many built-in functionalities that are already there and they allow you to reduce this complexity of having to know many different technologies, right? And so it's not only to store different data models either you know, treat a multimodal database as a chasing documents store or a relational database but most databases are multimodal since 20 plus years. But it's also actually being able to perhaps if you store that data together, you can perhaps actually derive additional value for somebody else but perhaps not for your application. But like for example, if you were to use Oracle Database you can actually write queries on top of all of that data. It doesn't really matter for our query engine whether it's the data is format that then chase or the data is formatted in rows and columns you can just rather than query over it. And that's actually very powerful for those guys that have to, you know get the reporting done the end of the day, the end of the week. And for those guys that are the data scientists that they want to figure out, you know which product performed really well or can we tweak something here and there. When you look into that space you still see a huge divergence between the guys to put data in kind of the altarpiece style and guys that try to derive new insights. And there's still a lot of ETL going around and, you know we have big data technologies that some of them come and went and some of them came in that are still around like Apache Spark which is still like a SQL engine on top of any of your data kind of going back to the same concept. And so I will say that, you know, for developers when we look at microservices it's like, first of all, is the argument you were making because the vendor or the technology you want to use tells you this argument or, you know, you kind of want to have an argument to use a specific technology? Or is it really more because it is the best technology, to best use for this given use case for this given application that you have? And if so there's of course, also nothing wrong to use a single purpose technology either, right? >> Yeah, I mean, whenever I talk about Oracle I always come back to the most important applications, the mission critical. It's very difficult to architect databases with microservices and containers. You have to be really, really careful. And so and again, it comes back to what we were talking before about with Maria that the complexity and the recovery. But Gerald I want to stay with you for a minute. So there's other data management technologies popping out there. I mean, I've seen some people saying, okay just leave the data in an S3 bucket. We can query that, then we've got some magic sauce to do that. And so why are you optimistic about you know, traditional database technology going forward? >> I would say because of the history of databases. So one thing that once struck me when I came to Oracle and then got to meet great people like Juan Luis and Andy Mendelsohn who had been here for a long, long time. I come to realization that relational databases are around for about 45 years now. And, you know, I was like, I'm too young to have been around then, right? So I was like, what else was around 45 years? It's like just the tech stack that we have today. It's like, how does this look like? Well, Linux only came out in 93. Well, databases pre-date Linux a lot rather than as I started digging I saw a lot of technologies come and go, right? And you mentioned before like the technologies that data management systems that we had that came and went like the columnar databases or XML databases, object databases. And even before relational databases before Cot gave us the relational model there were apparently these networks stores network databases which to some extent look very similar to adjacent documents. There wasn't a harder storing data and a hierarchy to format. And, you know when you then start actually reading the Cot paper and diving a little bit more into the relation model, that's I think one important crux in there that most of the industry keeps forgetting or it hasn't been around to even know. And that is that when Cot created the relational model, he actually focused not so much on the application putting the data in, but on future users and applications still being able to making sense out of the data, right? And that's kind of like I said before we had those network models, we had XML databases you have adjacent documents stores. And the one thing that they all have along with it is like the application that puts the data in decides the structure of the data. And that's all well and good if you had an application of the developer writing an application. It can become really tricky when 10 years later you still want to look at that data and the application that the developer is no longer around then you go like, what does this all mean? Where is the structure defined? What is this attribute? What does it mean? How does it correlate to others? And the one thing that people tend to forget is that it's actually the data that's here to stay not someone who does the applications where it is. Ideally, every company wants to store every single byte of data that they have because there might be future value in it. Economically may not make sense that's now much more feasible than just years ago. But if you could, why wouldn't you want to store all your data, right? And sometimes you actually have to store the data for seven years or whatever because the laws require you to. And so coming back then and you know, like 10 years from now and looking at the data and going like making sense of that data can actually become a lot more difficult and a lot more challenging than having to first figure out and how we store this data for general use. And that kind of was what the relational model was all about. We decompose the data structures into tables and columns with relationships amongst each other so therefore between each other. So that therefore if somebody wants to, you know typical example would be well you store some purchases from your web store, right? There's a customer attribute in it. There's some credit card payment information in it, just some product information on what the customer bought. Well, in the relational model if you just want to figure out which products were sold on a given day or week, you just would query the payment and products table to get the sense out of it. You don't need to touch the customer and so forth. And with the hierarchical model you have to first sit down and understand how is the structure, what is the customer? Where is the payment? You know, does the document start with the payment or does it start with the customer? Where do I find this information? And then in the very early days those databases even struggled to then not having to scan all the documents to get the data out. So coming back to your question a bit, I apologize for going on here. But you know, it's like relational databases have been around for 45 years. I actually argue it's one of the most successful software technologies that we have out there when you look in the overall industry, right? 45 years is like, in IT terms it's like from a star being the ones who are going supernova. You have said it before that many technologies coming and went, right? And just want to add a more really interesting example by the way is Hadoop and HDFS, right? They kind of gave us this additional promise of like, you know, the 2010s like 2012, 2013 the hype of Hadoop and so forth and (mumbles) and HDFS. And people are just like, just put everything into HDFS and worry about the data later, right? And we can query it and map reduce it and whatever. And we had customers actually coming to us they were like, great we have half a petabyte of data on an HDFS cluster and we have no clue what's stored in there. How do we figure this out? What are we going to do now? Now you had a big data cleansing problem. And so I think that is why databases and also data modeling is something that will not go away anytime soon. And I think databases and database technologies are here for quite a while to stay. Because many of those are people they don't think about what's happening to the data five years from now. And many of the niche players also and also frankly even Amazon you know, following with this single purpose thing is like, just use the right tool for the job for your application, right? Just pull in the data there the way you wanted. And it's like, okay, so you use technologies all over the place and then five years from now you have your data fragmented everywhere in different formats and, you know inconsistencies, and, and, and. And those are usually when you come back to this data-driven business critical business decision applications the worst case scenario you can have, right? Because now you need an army of people to actually do data cleansing. And there's not a coincidence that data science has become very, very popular the last recent years as we kind of went on with this proliferation of different database or data management technologies some of those are not even database. But I think I leave it at that. >> It's an interesting talk track because you're right. I mean, no schema on right was alluring, but it definitely created some problems. It also created an entire, you know you referenced the hyper specialized roles and did the data cleansing component. I mean, maybe technology will eventually solve that problem but it hasn't up at least up tonight. Okay, last question, Maria maybe you could start off and Gerald if you want to chime in as well it'd be great. I mean, it's interesting to watch this industry when Oracle sort of won the top database mantle. I mean, I watched it, I saw it. It was, remember it was Informix and it was (indistinct) too and of course, Microsoft you got to give them credit with SQL server, but Oracle won the database wars. And then everything got kind of quiet for awhile database was sort of boring. And then it exploded, you know, all the, you know not only SQL and the key-value stores and the cloud databases and this is really a hot area now. And when we looked at Oracle we said, okay, Oracle it's all about Oracle Database, but we've seen the kind of resurgence in MySQL which everybody thought, you know once Oracle bought Sun they were going to kill MySQL. But now we see you investing in HeatWave, TimesTen, we talked about In-Memory databases before. So where do those fit in Maria in the grand scheme? How should we think about Oracle's database portfolio? >> So there's lots of places where you'd use those different things. 'Cause just like any other industry there are going to be new and boutique use cases that are going to benefit from a more specialized product or single purpose product. So good examples off the top of my head of the kind of systems that would benefit from that would be things like a stock exchange system or a telephone exchange system. Both of those are latency critical transaction processing applications where they need microsecond response times. And that's going to exceed perhaps what you might normally get or deploy with a converged database. And so Oracle's TimesTen database our In-Memory database is perfect for those kinds of applications. But there's also a host of MySQL applications out there today and you said it yourself there Dave, HeatWave is a great place to provision and deploy those kinds of applications because it's going to run 100 times faster than AWS (mumbles). So, you know, there really is a place in the market and in our customer's systems and the needs they have for all of these different members of our database family here at Oracle. >> Yeah, well, the internet is basically running in the lamp stack so I see MySQL going away. All right Gerald, will give you the final word, bring us home. >> Oh, thank you very much. Yeah, I mean, as Maria said, I think it comes back to what we discussed before. There is obviously still needs for special technologies or different technologies than a relational database or multimodal database. Oracle has actually many more databases that people may first think of. Not only the three that we have already mentioned but there's even SP so the Oracle's NoSQL database. And, you know, on a high level Oracle is a data management company, right? And we want to give our customers the best tools and the best technology to manage all of their data. Rather than therefore there has to be a need or there should be a part of the business that also focuses on this highly specialized systems and this highly specialized technologies that address those use cases. And I think it makes perfect sense. It's like, you know, when the customer comes to Oracle they're not only getting this, take this one product you know, and if you don't like it your problem but actually you have choice, right? And choice allows you to make a decision based on what's best for you and not necessarily best for the vendor you're talking to. >> Well guys, really appreciate your time today and your insights. Maria, Gerald, thanks so much for coming on The Cube. >> Thank you very much for having us. >> And thanks for watching this Cube conversation this is Dave Vellante and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(bright upbeat music) >> Hi well, this is Dave Vellante. We're digging deeper into the world of database. You know, there are a lot of ways to skin a cat and different vendors take different approaches and we're reaching out to the technologists to get their perspective on the major trends that they're seeing in the market, 'cause we want to understand the different ways in which you can solve problems. So look, if you have thoughts and the technical chops on this topic, I'd love to interview you. Just ping me at at DVellante, on Twitter, a lot of ways to get ahold of me. Anyway, we recently spoke with Andrew Mendelsohn, who is Oracle's EVP and he's responsible for database server technologies. And we talked a lot about Oracle's ADW, Autonomous Data Warehouse. And we looked at the cloud database strategy that Oracle is taking and the company's plans and how they're different maybe from other solutions in the marketplace, but I wanted to dig deeper. And so today we have two members of Mendelsohn's team on The Cube, and we're going to probe a little bit. George Lumpkin, is the Vice President of Autonomous Data Warehouse. And Neil Mendelson is the VP of Modern Data Warehouse, that business for Oracle. They're both 20-year veterans of Oracle. When I reached out to Steve Savannah, who's a colleague of mine for many years, he's always telling me how great Oracle is relative to the competition. So I said, okay, come on The Cube and talk about this, give me your best people. And he said, whatever these two don't know about cloud data warehouse, it isn't worth knowing anyway. So with that said gentlemen, welcome to The Cube. Thanks so much for coming on. >> Thank you. >> Hey, glad to be here. >> So George, let's start with you. And maybe we could recap for some of the viewers who might not be familiar with the interview that I did with Andy. In your words, what exactly is an Autonomous Data Warehouse? Is this cloud native? Is it an Oracle buzzword? What is it? >> Well, I mean, Autonomous Data Warehouse is Oracle's cloud data warehouse. It's a service that built to allow business users to get more value from their data. That's what the cloud data warehouse market is. Autonomous Data Warehouse is absolutely cloud native. This is a huge misconception that people might have when they first sort of hear about something, this service because they think this is a Oracle database, right? Oracle makes databases. This is the same old database I knew from 10 years ago. And that's absolutely not true. We built a cloud native service or data warehousing built it with cloud features. You know, if your understanding of the cloud data warehouse market is based upon how you thought things look 10 years ago, like Snowflake wouldn't have even existed, right? You can't base your understanding of Oracle based upon that. We have a modern service that's highly elastic, provides cloud capabilities like online patching and it's fully autonomous. It's really built the business users so they don't need to worry about administering their database. >> So I want to come back and actually ask you some questions about that, but let me follow up and talk about some of the evolution of the ADW. And where did you start? I think it was 2018, maybe where you came from, where you are today, maybe you can take us through the technological progression and maybe the path you took to get here. >> And so 2018, was when we released the service and made generally available, but of course, you know we started much earlier than that. And this was started within my product management team, and other organization. So we really sat down with a blank sheet of paper and we said, what should the data warehouse in the cloud look like? You know, let's put aside everything that Oracle does for its on-prem customers and think about how the cloud should be different. And the first thing that we said was, well, you know, if Oracle writes the database software, and Oracle builds its own hardware, and Oracle has created its own cloud, why do we need customers to manage a database? And that's where the idea of autonomous database came from. That Oracle is managing the entire ecosystem. And therefore we built a database that we believe it's far and away the simplest to use simplest data warehouse in the market. And that's been our focus since we started with 2018. And that continues to be our focus, looking at more ways that we can make an Autonomous Data Warehouse as simpler and easier for business users to get more value out of their data. >> Awesome, one more question. And actually Neil, you might want to chime in on this as well. So just from a technical perspective, you know forget the marketing claims and all the BS. How do you compare ADW to the so-called born in the cloud data warehouses? You mentioned Snowflake, you know Redshift, is Redshift born in the cloud. Well, it was par XL but Amazon's done some good work around Redshift. I think big query is maybe probably a better example 'cause it was, you know, like Snowflake started in the cloud but how do you compare ADW to some of these other so-called born in the cloud data warehouses? >> I think part of this, you mentioned Redshift wasn't important in the cloud. It was, you know, a code base taken from a prior company that was on-premise company. So they adapted it to the cloud, right? And you know, we have done, as George said, much of the same, which is, you know, our starting point was not you know another company's code base, but our starting point was our own code base. But as George said, it's less about the starting point and it's more about where you envision the end point, right? Which is that, you know, whatever your starting point is, I think we have a fundamental different view of the endpoint. Amazon talks about how they're literally built for you know, a cloud built for developers, right? You know, builders, right? And you know Oracle wasn't first in the infrastructure business, we entered through applications business. And all of a sudden, you know we began taking on 100s of 1000s and 100s of even more customers that were SAS customers. Underneath was the database and all the infrastructure. One of the things that we took away from that was that we couldn't possibly hire enough people DBA, to manage all the infrastructure below our applications customers. So one of the things that influenced this is that, you know customers expect SAS applications to just take care of themselves, right? So we had to essentially modify the infrastructure to allow it to do so as well, right? And we're bringing that capability to those people who, you know, may or may not have an application, but their interest is, you know more of this self-service agility type of aspect. >> So it seems to me and Georgia was sort of alluding to this before. I mean, when you mentioned Snowflake a couple of times, and then Neil, something you just said, I'm going to pick up on is you've been around for a long time. And you know, when I talked to the Snowflake people, they know Oracle, a lot of them came from Oracle. They understand I think how you can't just build Oracle overnight and build in the capabilities that Oracle has and the recovery. And you talk to customers and you know you are the gold standard of, you know especially mission critical databases, so I get that. But now you just sort of hit on it, is it takes a lot of people and skill to run the database. So that's the problem that you're saying you were attacking, is that, am I getting that right? >> Right, right, so the people that you talked about who originally built Snowflake came from Oracle, but they came from Oracle more than a decade ago. So their context is over a decade old, right? In the meantime, we've been busy, you know building a economies and many other capabilities, right? Their view of Oracle is that view that was back more than 10 years ago, right? They're still adding capability. So a really good example of this illustration is Oracle as you said, it's the most capable system that's out there and has been for many years. We've been focusing on how do we simplify that and how do we use machine learning embedded within the system itself? Because core to the concept of autonomous is that inside, is this machine learning system that's continually improving, right? That's the whole notion. Where in Snowflakes case, they're still adding functionality. Last year, they added masking which you know functionality they didn't have, but when they added the capability, they added it without, you know, the ability for a business user to actually take advantage of it. There's no capability for a business user to actually find the information that needs to be masked. And then after the information is found, you require a technical person to actually implement the mask. In Oracle's case, we've had masking and those capabilities for a long time, our focus was to be able to provide a simple tool that a business user can use that doesn't need technical or security experience. Find the data that needs to be masked PII data, and then hit a button and have it masked for you. So, you know, they're still, you know, without this notion of a strategy to move toward the system to heal itself and to manage itself, they're just going to continue. As they continue to add more capability, they will in turn add more complexity. What we're trying to do is take complexity out while others are adding it in, its an ironic twist. >> It is an ironic twist. It is interesting to look at it. And I don't want to make this about Snowflake. But I mean, Hey, I like what they're doing. I like them. I know the management, they're growing like crazy and you know and the customers tell me, hey, this is really simple. And it's simple by design. I mean, to your point over time it's going to get, you know, more and more complex. I was talking to Andy, I think it was Andy. He was saying, you know, they've got the different sizes you've got to shape some, you know, they call it t-shirt sizes. And I was like, okay, I got a small, I got a medium and a large, maybe that's okay. But you guys would say, we give more granular you know, a scaling, I guess is the point there, right? I mean George, I don't know if you can comment on that. It just a different strategy. You've got a company that was founded well, I guess, 2015 versus one that was founded in 1977. So you would think the latter has, you know way more function than the former, but George, anything you'd add to this conversation? >> Yeah, I mean, I'm always amazed that there are these database systems that are perceived as cloud native and they do things like sell you database sizes by t-shirt sizes, as you described. I mean, if you look at Snowflake, it's small, medium, large extra large too extra large, but they're all factors of two. You're getting a size of your database of two, four, eight, six, 32, et cetera. Or if you look at AWS Redshift, you're buying your database by the nodes. You say, how many nodes do you want? And in both those cases, this is a cloud native. This is saying we have some hardware underneath our database and we need you, Mr. Customer, to tell us how many servers you want. That's not the way the clouds should work, right? And I think this is one of the things that we did with Autonomous Data Warehouse. We said, no, that's not how the rules should work. We still run our database on hardware, we still have nodes and servers. We should tell the customer, how many CPU's you would like for your data warehouse? You want 16? Sounds good. You want 18? Yeah, we can give you 18. We're not, you know, we're not selling these to you in bundles of eight or bundles of six or powers of two. We'll sell you what you need. That's what cloud elasticity should be. Not this idea that oh, we are a database that should be managed by IT. IT already knows about servers and nodes. Therefore it's okay if we tell people your cloud data warehouse runs on nodes. Within Oracle as Neil said, we wouldn't. The data warehouse should be used by the people who want to actually analyze their data, should be used by the business users. >> Well, and so the other piece of cloud native that has become popular, is this idea of separating compute from storage and being able to scale those two independent of each other which is pretty important, right? Because you don't want to have to pay for a chunk of compute if you don't need the storage and vice versa. Maybe you could talk about that, how you solve that problem, to the extent that you solve that problem. >> Absolutely, we do separate compute print storage with Autonomous Data Warehouse. When you come in and you say, I need 10 CPU's for my data warehouse and I need two terabytes of storage. Those are two dependent decisions that you make. So they're not tied together in any way. And, you are exactly right, Dave, this is how things should work in the cloud. You should pay for what you need, pay for what you use, not be constrained by having big sets of storage you have to use for a given amount CPU or vice versa. >> Okay, go ahead Neil, please. >> Oh, just to add on to that, you know, the other aspect that comes into play is that, you know, so your starting point is X, whatever that happens to be. Over time that changes. And we all know that workloads vary right throughout the day throughout the month, throughout the year by various events that occur maybe the close of the year, close of business at the end of the quarter, it maybe you know, holiday season for retailers and so forth. So, you know, it's not only the starting point, but how do you actually manage the growth, right? scaling up and scaling down, right? In our case, we tried, as George said, we abstracted that completely for the customer basically said check a box, which has auto scale. So, if the system is required more resources, will apply more resources. And we do so instantaneously without any downtime whatsoever, right? Because you know, again, you know, people think in terms of these systems have now become business critical. So if the business critical, you can't just shut down to expand. Imagine during the holiday season is your business is ramping up. And then all of a sudden you have to scale, right? And your system either shuts down, reboots itself, right? Or it slows down to the point that it's a crawl and all your customers get frustrated. We don't do that. You click a button, auto scale and we take care of it for you smoothing out those lumps, right? Without any technical assistance. And again, if you look at Redshift, you look at all these various systems, they require technical assistance to be able to figure out not only your initial data, but how you scale out over time. >> Interesting, okay. So all is said, you know, a lot of companies are using Azure, AWS Google for infrastructure, why would these customers not just use their database? Why would they switch to Oracle or ADW? >> Well, I think Neil will probably add something. I want to start by saying a huge number of our existing Autonomous Data Warehouse customers today are customers of AWS and Azure. They are pulling data from AWS and Azure and bringing it into an Oracle Autonomous Data Warehouse. And we built feature Joe, I focused on product managers. We feel featured for that. And so it's perfectly viable and it it's almost commonplace, that the very largest enterprises to be doing that. But then coming to the question of why would they want to do it? I don't know, Neil, you want to take that? >> Yeah, yeah, so one of the things that we've really see emerge here is you know, a data warehouse doesn't generate the transactions on itself, right? So the data has to come from somewhere, right? And you ask yourself, well, where does the data come from? Well, in a lot of cases, that data is coming from applications and increasingly SAS applications that the company has deployed. And those are, you know, HR applications, you know, CRM applications, you know ERP applications and many vertical applications. In Oracle's case, what we've done is we say, okay, well, we have the application, this transactional thing, we have the infrastructure from the economist data warehouse, why don't we just make it really, really easy? And if you're an Oracle applications customer, that's already running on the Oracle cloud, we will essentially provide you the ability to create a data warehouse from that information, right? With a clicker, with largely either with a product and service or quick start kit. You don't start from scratch, you start from where you are. And there are many cases that where you are has data, very much as George mentioned before telcos, banks, insurance companies, governments, all of the data that they want to analyze, a lot of that data guess where it's coming from, it's coming from Oracle applications. So it makes sense to be able to have both the data that's generated and the data that's being analyzed close to the same place. Because at the end of the day, the payoff pitch for any form of analysis is not coming up with an insight, oh, I realized X, Y, Z, but it's rather putting the insight directly into production. And that's where, when you have this stuff spread all over God's greener trying to go from insight into action can take months, if not years. The reason that a lot of customers are now turning to us is that they need to be much more agile and they need to be able to turn that insight into action immediately without it being a science project. >> Okay, thank you for that. So let's tick them off. Like what are the top things that customers can get from Oracle Autonomous Data Warehouse, that they couldn't get from say a Snowflake or Redshift or Big query or SQL server or something yet. I appreciate you guys' willingness to talk about the competition. Let's tick them off. What are the most important things that we should know about that they can't get elsewhere? >> So first, I mean, we already talked about a couple of what we think are really the major themes of Autonomous Data Warehouse. The services is autonomous. You don't need to worry about managing it, anyone can manage the data warehouse. The service is elastic. You can buy and pay for what you use. You know, those are just what we think of as being the general characteristics of Autonomous Data Warehouse. But you know, when you come to your question of, hey, what do we give that other vendors don't provide? And I think the one angle that Autonomous Data Warehouse does a really good job is and Neil was just discussing this, it focuses on the business problems, right? We have years and years of experience with not just database security, but data security, right? You know, every cloud vendor can say, oh we encrypt all your data, we have these compliance certifications, all of these things. And what they're saying is, we are securing your database, we are securing your database infrastructure. At Oracle of course has to do those as well. But where we go further, is we say, hey, no, no, no, no, no, we know what business users want. They want to secure their data. What kind of data am I storing? Do I have PII data? Could you detect whether there's PII data and tell me about it in case some user loaded something that I wasn't aware of? What kind of privileges did I give my users? Can you make sure that those privileges are right? And can you tell me if users were given privileges that they're not using maybe I need to take them away. These are the problems that Oracle's tackled in security over the last 20 years. It's really more about the business problem. Yeah, some other, oh, go ahead. >> Oh, I'm sorry, I got so many questions for you guys. We'll get back to that 'cause it sounds like there's a long list. (laughs) >> We have nowhere to go.(laughs) I want to pick up with George on something you said about elasticity. Is it true pay by the drink? Do you have a consumption pricing? I mean, can I dial it up and dial it down whenever I want? How does that work? >> Yes, I mean not to be too many technical details, but you say, I want 14 CPU's that's what your database runs at. You can change that default number anytime you want online, right? You can say, okay, I'm coming up on my quarter end, I'm going to raise my database 20 CPU. We just do it on the ply. We just adjust the size--- >> What about the other way? What about coming down? Can I go down to one? >> You go down, you can go down to one--- >> And you're not going to charge me for 14 if I go down to one? >> No, if you set it down to one, you get charged for one, right? >> Okay, that's good, that's good. >> In the background, you know we are also allowing levels of auto scaling. You say, if you say hey, I want to charged for 14 and Oracle, can you take care of all those scaling for me? So if a bunch of people jump on at 5:00 PM, to run some queries, 'cause the executive said, hey, I need a report by tomorrow morning. We'll take care of that for you. We'll let you go beyond 14 and only charge you for exactly what you use for those extra CPU's beyond 14. >> Okay, thank you. Go ahead, Neil. >> And maybe, if we add, you know, Andy talked about this when he was on that show with you last week, right? And you know, he talked about this concept of a converged database, but let me talk about it in the way that we see it from a business point of view, right? You know, business users are looking to, you know ask a variety of questions, right? And those questions need to be able to relate to both you know, the customer themselves, the relationship that the customer might have with others. You know, today we talk about like the social network and who are influencers within that, and then where they actually conduct business. Which is really, you know, in every case, it's on some form of increasingly on a mobile device. So in that case, you want to be able to ask questions, which is not only, you know, who should I focus on, but who are the key influencers within this community, right? That could influence others? And does that happen in a particular place in time? Meaning, you know, let's say pre COVID, it might happen at a coffee shop or somewhere else. We can answer all of those questions and more inside of the autonomous system without having to replicate the data out to one system that does graph and another system that does spatial, a third system that does this. It's like a business user. It's like, wait a minute, come on, you're trying to tell me that I need a separate system and replicate the data just be able to understand location? The answer in many cases is yes, you have to have separate, which a business person says, well, that's absurd. Can't I just do this all in one system? You can with Oracle. >> So look, I'm not trying to be the snarky journalist or analyst here but I want to keep pushing on this issue. So here we are, it's 2021. It's April. We're like a third of the way through the year. And so far, nobody has come out and said, okay, we're going to deliver Autonomous Data Warehouse just like Oracle. So I asked myself, well, why is Oracle doing this? You guys answered, you know, to reduce the labor cost. But I asked myself, is this how they're solving the problem of keeping relevant a database that spans five decades? And you guys said, no, no, this is cloud native born in the cloud, you know started essentially with a new mindset. But is this a trend that others are going to follow? You know, and if so, why haven't we seen it this idea of a self-driving databases? Why is it right now unique to Oracle? What's really going on here? >> So I think there's a really interesting thing that's happening, it's not visible outside of Oracle. It's very visible for those of us who work inside of the development organization. You know, if you look at Oracle, I can tell you bad. I mean, I think it's safe to presume Oracle has the largest database development organization on the planet, right? I mean, it was kind of the largest database or large most used database for the past two decades. And what's happened is we pivoted to building a cloud platform. We're not just building a database, we're taking all of these resources that we have with all these expertise of building database software. We were saying, we now have to build the platform to run and manage the database software in the cloud, right? And it's a little bit like, you know I think to make people relate to it a little better, there was a really good quote from Elon Musk couple of years ago, talking about Tesla. Like everyone looks at the car, right? Tesla, the car is really great. The hard part of this, is building the factory, and that's analogy holds for Oracle. What we're building is the cloud battery. And what we have transitioned is our database development organization is now building as robust a cloud as possible. So that you know, when we increase the number of databases by 10 X, we don't add 10 X, more cloud ops people to manage it. We are ramping up developer building features to automate the management of our cloud infrastructure. And with that automation, we get better ability, less errors, more security. We give benefits to our cloud data warehouse customers with it. And I think this something really important to realize, right? We build database software. We build, you know, an engineered system built for databases called exit data, and we build a cloud platform. And these are really equal tiers in what we are building and developing today in 2021 from Oracle database development organization. >> Well, you mentioned exit data, I want to shift gears here a little bit and talk about we're seeing this hybrid cloud on-premises clouds, they're finally gaining some traction. I got to give props Oracle's cloud of customers really the early to that game. I think it was the first in my view anyway, true same same vision, took you guys a little while to get there but it was the right vision. And the thing I always say about Oracle people don't understand is Oracle invest in R and D, your chairman is also the CTO. You guys are serious about technical investment so you know, that's where innovation comes from. But, and we heard during your recent earnings call, we heard some positive comments on this. So what's your take on delivering autonomous data warehouse on-prem and how do you compare with say Snowflake and AWS in that area? Snowflake, Frank Slootman, I've had him on record saying we're not going to do that halfway house. Forget it, we are always going to be in the cloud. We're never going to do an on-prem installation. AWS, we'll see to date. Yeah, I don't think you can get a Redshift for instance in outposts, but maybe that'll come. But, how do you see that emerging? What's your difference there? Maybe Neil, you could talk about that. >> Yeah, so, you know, I think, you know, customers had a lot of regulated industries, right? Still have concerns about the public cloud. And I think that when you hear statements like, you know, we're never going to do, you know, on-prem. Well, economist cloud at customer, it's not a classic on-prem solution. What it is, it's a piece of our cloud delivered in your data center. It's still the cloud software. Oracle manages it, Oracle, you know, the system itself manages itself and we take care of that responsibility so you don't have to. The differences is that we can make that available in a public cloud as well as in a private cloud, right? And there are so many use cases, you know, that you can imagine from a regulatory point of view, or just from a comfort point of view, where customers are choosing, they want the ability to decide for themselves where to place this stuff as compared to only having one option, right? And you know, you look at a lot of what's happening in the emerging world where, you know, there are a lot of places in the world that may not have, you know, really really high-speed internet connections to make, you know a public cloud feasible. Well, in that case, whether you're talking about, you know an oil rig or you're talking about something else, right? We can put that capability where it needs to be close to the operation that you're talking about, irrespective of the deployment option. >> Well, let me just follow up on that because I think it's interesting that, you know Frank Slootman said that to me, I oftentimes around AWS I say, never say never 'cause they'll surprise you, right? And I've learned that with Andy Jassy, but one of the things that seems difficult for on-prem, would be to separate that compute from storage because you have to actually physically move in resources. I think about Vertica Xeon mode. It's not quite the same, same. So, I mean, in that regard, maybe you're not the same same. And maybe that dogma makes sense for some companies. For Oracle, obviously you've got a huge on-prem state, thoughts on that. >> So, you know, clearly, you know, so typically what we'll do is that we'll provide additional hardware beyond what the customer might expect and that allows them to use the capabilities of expansion, right? We also have the ability to allow the customer to expand from their cloud of customer into the public cloud as well, of which we have a lot of those situations. So we can provide a level of elasticity, even on-premises by over provisioning the systems, well not charging the customer until they use only based on what they consume, right? Combined together with the ability for us to augment their usage in the public cloud as well, right? Where others, again are constraint, right? Because they only have a single option. >> Right, well, you've got the capital resources to do that as well which is not to be overlooked. Okay, I mean, I've blown our time here but you guys are so awesome. (laughs) I appreciate the candor. So last question and George, if you want to throw in a couple of those other tick boxes, you know the differentiators, please feel free, but for both of you, if you can leave customers with the one key point or the top key points on how Oracle Autonomous Data Warehouse can really help them improve their business in the near term, what would they be? Maybe George, you could start and then Neil you bring us home. >> Yeah, I mean, I think that, as I said before, our starting point with Autonomous Data Warehouse, is how can we build a better customer experience in the cloud? And I think, and this continues throughout 2021, and I think that the big theme here is the business users should be able to get value directly from their data warehouses. We talked a few times about how a line of business user should be able to manage their own data, should be able to load their own data warehouse, should be able to start to work with their own data, should be able to run machine learning, model of build machine learning, models against that data and all of that built in, and delivered in Autonomous Data Warehouse. And we think that this is, you know we see our customer organizations large and small, the light bulbs starting to go on how easy the services to use to and how completed it is for helping business users get value from their data. And just adding onto what George said, you know, the development organization has done a tremendous job of really simplifying this cooperation. What we also tried to do that on the business side. You know, when a customer has an on-prem situation, they're looking at moving to the cloud, whether lift and shift or modernized, they're looking at costs, they're looking at risk and they're looking at time. So one of the things we look at is how do we mitigate that? How do we mitigate the cost, the risk and the time? Well, this week, I think we announced our new cloud lift program and the cloud lift program is what Oracle will provide to its cloud engineering resources around the world is that we will do, we will take the cost, the risk and the time out of the equation and Oracle will work directly with the customer or the customer's partner of choice, maybe an Accenture or Deloitte, and we will move them, right? You know, at little or no cost, most cases there's no cost whatsoever, right? We mitigate the risk because we're taking the risk on. And we've built a lot of automated tools to make that go very quickly, right? And securely, and then finally, we do it in a very very short amount of time as compared to what you would need to do with, you know 'cause there is no Redshift on-premises. There is no Snowflake on-premises. You have to convert from what you already have to that, right? And, but the company beyond the technological barriers that George talked about were also trying to smooth the operation so that a business itself can make a decision that not only did they not need the technical people to operate it, they won't need an entire consulting contract with millions of dollars in order to actually do the movement to the cloud. >> Well, guys, I really appreciate you coming on the program and again, your candor to speak openly about you know, your approach, the competitors. And so it's great having you, really really thank you for, for your time. >> Appreciate it. >> And thank you for watching everybody. Look, if you guys want to come back, go toe to toe with these guys, say the word you're always welcome to come on The Cube. One thing for sure, Oracle are serious, when it comes to database. Thank you for watching. This is Dave Vellante. We'll see you next time. (bright music)

(upbeat music) >> On February 19th of this year, Barron's dropped an article declaring Oracle, a cloud giant and the article explained why the stock was a buy. Investors took notice and the stock ran up 18% over the next nine trading days and it peaked on March 9th, the day before Oracle announced its latest earnings. The company beat consensus earnings on both top-line and EPS last quarter, but investors, they did not like Oracle's tepid guidance and the stock pulled back. But it's still, as you can see, well above its pre-Barron's article price. What does all this mean? Is Oracle a cloud giant? What are its growth prospects? Now many parts of Oracle's business are growing including Fusion ERP, Fusion HCM, NetSuite, we're talking deep into the double digits, 20 plus percent growth. It's OnPrem legacy licensed business however, continues to decline and that moderates, the overall company growth because that OnPrem business is so large. So the overall Oracle's growing in the low single digits. Now what stands out about Oracle is it's recurring revenue model. That figure, the company says now it represents 73% of its revenue and that's going to continue to grow. Now two other things stood out on the earnings call to us. First, Oracle plans on increasing its CapEX by 50% in the coming quarter, that's a lot. Now it's still far less than AWS Google or Microsoft Spend on capital but it's a meaningful data point. Second Oracle's consumption revenue for Autonomous Database and Cloud Infrastructure, OCI or Oracle Cloud Infrastructure grew at 64% and 139% respectively and these two factors combined with the CapEX Spend suggest that the company has real momentum. I mean look, it's possible that the CapEx announcements maybe just optics in they're front loading, some spend to show the street that it's a player in cloud but I don't think so. Oracle's Safra Catz's usually pretty disciplined when it comes to it's spending. Now today on March 17th, Oracle announced updates towards Autonomous Data Warehouse and with me is David Floyer who has extensively researched Oracle over the years and today we're going to unpack the Oracle Autonomous Data Warehouse, ADW announcement. What it means to customers but we also want to dig into Oracle's strategy. We want to compare it to some other prominent database vendors specifically, AWS and Snowflake. David Floyer, Welcome back to The Cube, thanks for making some time for me. >> Thank you Vellante, great pleasure to be here. >> All right, I want to get into the news but I want to start with this idea of the autonomous database which Oracle's announcement today is building on. Oracle uses the analogy of a self-driving car. It's obviously powerful metaphor as they call it the self-driving database and my takeaway is that, this means that the system automatically provisions, it upgrades, it does all the patching for you, it tunes itself. Oracle claims that all reduces labor costs or admin costs by 90%. So I ask you, is this the right interpretation of what Oracle means by autonomous database? And is it real? >> Is that the right interpretation? It's a nice analogy. It's a test to that analogy, isn't it? I would put it as the first stage of the Autonomous Data Warehouse was to do the things that you talked about, which was the tuning, the provisioning, all of that sort of thing. The second stage is actually, I think more interesting in that what they're focusing on is making it easy to use for the end user. Eliminating the requirement for IT, staff to be there to help in the actual using of it and that is a very big step for them but an absolutely vital step because all of the competition focusing on ease of use, ease of use, ease of use and cheapness of being able to manage and deploy. But, so I think that is the really important area that Oracle has focused on and it seemed to have done so very well. >> So in your view, is this, I mean you don't really hear a lot of other companies talking about this analogy of the self-driving database, is this unique? Is it differentiable for Oracle? If so, why, or maybe you could help us understand that a little bit better. >> Well, the whole strategy is unique in its breadth. It has really brought together a whole number of things together and made it of its type the best. So it has a single, whole number of data sources and database types. So it's got a very broad range of different ways that you can look at the data and the second thing that is also excellent is it's a platform. It is fully self provisioned and its functionality is very, very broad indeed. The quality of the original SQL and the query languages, etc, is very, very good indeed and it's a better agent to do joints for example, is excellent. So all of the building blocks are there and together with it's sharing of the same data with OLTP and inference and in memory data paces as well. All together the breadth of what they have is unique and very, very powerful. >> I want to come back to this but let's get into the news a little bit and the announcement. I mean, it seems like what's new in the autonomous data warehouse piece for Oracle's new tooling around four areas that so Andy Mendelsohn, the head of this group instead of the guy who releases his baby, he talked about four things. My takeaway, faster simpler loads, simplified transforms, autonomous machine learning models which are facilitating, What do you call it? Citizen data science and then faster time to insights. So tooling to make those four things happen. What's your take and takeaways on the news? >> I think those are all correct. I would add the ease of use in terms of being able to drag and drop, the user interface has been dramatically improved. Again, I think those, strategically are actually more important that the others are all useful and good components of it but strategically, I think is more important. There's ease of use, the use of apex for example, are more important. And, >> Why are they more important strategically? >> Because they focus on the end users capability. For example, one of other things that they've started to introduce is Python together with their spatial databases, for example. That is really important that you reach out to the developer as they are and what tools they want to use. So those type of ease of use things, those types of things are respecting what the end users use. For example, they haven't come out with anything like click or Tableau. They've left that there for that marketplace for the end user to use what they like best. >> Do you mean, they're not trying to compete with those two tools. They indeed had a laundry list of stuff that they supported, Talend, Tableau, Looker, click, Informatica, IBM, I had IBM there. So their claim was, hey, we're open. But so that's smart. That's just, hey, they realized that people use these tools. >> I'm trying to exclude other people, be a platform and be an ecosystem for the end users. >> Okay, so Mendelsohn who made the announcement said that Oracle's the smartphone of databases and I think, I actually think Alison kind of used that or maybe that was us planing to have, I thought he did like the iPhone of when he announced the exit data way back when the integrated hardware and software but is that how you see it, is Oracle, the smartphone of databases? >> It is, I mean, they are trying to own the complete stack, the hardware with the exit data all the way up to the databases at the data warehouses and the OLTP databases, the inference databases. They're trying to own the complete stack from top to bottom and that's what makes autonomy process possible. You can make it autonomous when you control all of that. Take away all of the requirements for IT in the business itself. So it's democratizing the use of data warehouses. It is pushing it out to the lines of business and it's simplifying it and making it possible to push out so that they can own their own data. They can manage their own data and they do not need an IT person from headquarters to help them. >> Let's stay in this a little bit more and then I want to go into some of the competitive stuff because Mendelsohn mentioned AWS several times. One of the things that struck me, he said, hey, we're basically one API 'cause we're doing analytics in the cloud, we're doing data in the cloud, we're doing integration in the cloud and that's sort of a big part of the value proposition. He made some comparisons to Redshift. Of course, I would say, if you can't find a workload where you beat your big competitor then you shouldn't be in this business. So I take those things with a grain of salt but one of the other things that caught me is that migrating from OnPrem to Oracle, Oracle Cloud was very simple and I think he might've made some comparisons to other platforms. And this to me is important because he also brought in that Gartner data. We looked at that Gardner data when they came out with it in the operational database class, Oracle smoked everybody. They were like way ahead and the reason why I think that's important is because let's face it, the Mission Critical Workloads, when you look at what's moving into AWS, the Mission Critical Workloads, the high performance, high criticality OLTP stuff. That's not moving in droves and you've made the point often that companies with their own cloud particularly, Oracle you've mentioned this about IBM for certain, DB2 for instance, customers are going to, there should be a lower risk environment moving from OnPrem to their cloud, because you could do, I don't think you could get Oracle RAC on AWS. For example, I don't think EXIF data is running in AWS data centers and so that like component is going to facilitate migration. What's your take on all that spiel? >> I think that's absolutely right. You all crown Jewels, the most expensive and the most valuable applications, the mission-critical applications. The ones that have got to take a beating, keep on taking. So those types of applications are where Oracle really shines. They own a very large high percentage of those Mission Critical Workloads and you have the choice if you're going to AWS, for example of either migrating to Oracle on AWS and that is frankly not a good fit at all. There're a lot of constraints to running large systems on AWS, large mission critical systems. So that's not an option and then the option, of course, that AWS will push is move to a Roller, change your way of writing applications, make them tiny little pieces and stitch them all together with microservices and that's okay if you're a small organization but that has got a lot of problems in its own, right? Because then you, the user have to stitch all those pieces together and you're responsible for testing it and you're responsible for looking after it. And that as you grow becomes a bigger and bigger overhead. So AWS, in my opinion needs to have a move towards a tier-one database of it's own and it's not in that position at the moment. >> Interesting, okay. So, let's talk about the competitive landscape and the choices that customers have. As I said, Mendelssohn mentioned AWS many times, Larry on the calls often take shy, it's a compliment to me. When Larry Ellison calls you out, that means you've made it, you're doing well. We've seen it over the years, whether it's IBM or Workday or Salesforce, even though Salesforce's big Oracle customer 'cause AWS, as we know are Oracle customer as well, even though AWS tells us they've off called when you peel the onion >> Five years should be great, some of the workers >> Well, as I said, I believe they're still using Oracle in certain workloads. Way, way, we digress. So AWS though, they take a different approach and I want to push on this a little bit with database. It's got more than a dozen, I think purpose-built databases. They take this kind of right tool for the right job approach was Oracle there converging all this function into a single database. SQL JSON graph databases, machine learning, blockchain. I'd love to talk about more about blockchain if we have time but seems to me that the right tool for the right job purpose-built, very granular down to the primitives and APIs. That seems to me to be a pretty viable approach versus kind of a Swiss Army approach. How do you compare the two? >> Yes, and it is to many initial programmers who are very interested for example, in graph databases or in time series databases. They are looking for a cheap database that will do the job for a particular project and that makes, for the program or for that individual piece of work is making a very sensible way of doing it and they pay for ads on it's clear cloud dynamics. The challenge as you have more and more data and as you're building up your data warehouse in your data lakes is that you do not want to have to move data from one place to another place. So for example, if you've got a Roller,, you have to move the database and it's a pretty complicated thing to do it, to move it to Redshift. It's a five or six steps to do that and each of those costs money and each of those take time. More importantly, they take time. The Oracle approach is a single database in terms of all the pieces that obviously you have multiple databases you have different OLTP databases and data warehouse databases but as a single architecture and a single design which means that all of the work in terms of moving stuff from one place to another place is within Oracle itself. It's Oracle that's doing that work for you and as you grow, that becomes very, very important. To me, very, very important, cost saving. The overhead of all those different ones and the databases themselves originate with all as open source and they've done very well with it and then there's a large revenue stream behind the, >> The AWS, you mean? >> Yes, the original database is in AWS and they've done a lot of work in terms of making it set with the panels, etc. But if a larger organization, especially very large ones and certainly if they want to combine, for example data warehouse with the OLTP and the inference which is in my opinion, a very good thing that they should be trying to do then that is incredibly difficult to do with AWS and in my opinion, AWS has to invest enormously in to make the whole ecosystem much better. >> Okay, so innovation required there maybe is part of the TAM expansion strategy but just to sort of digress for a second. So it seems like, and by the way, there are others that are doing, they're taking this converged approach. It seems like that is a trend. I mean, you certainly see it with single store. I mean, the name sort of implies that formerly MemSQL I think Monte Zweben of splice machine is probably headed in a similar direction, embedding AI in Microsoft's, kind of interesting. It seems like Microsoft is willing to build this abstraction layer that hides that complexity of the different tooling. AWS thus far has not taken that approach and then sort of looking at Snowflake, Snowflake's got a completely different, I think Snowflake's trying to do something completely different. I don't think they're necessarily trying to take Oracle head-on. I mean, they're certainly trying to just, I guess, let's talk about this. Snowflake simplified EDW, that's clear. Zero to snowflake in 90 minutes. It's got this data cloud vision. So you sign on to this Snowflake, speaking of layers they're abstracting the complexity of the underlying cloud. That's what the data cloud vision is all about. They, talk about this Global Mesh but they've not done a good job of explaining what the heck it is. We've been pushing them on that, but we got, >> Aspiration of moment >> Well, I guess, yeah, it seems that way. And so, but conceptually, it's I think very powerful but in reality, what snowflake is doing with data sharing, a lot of reading it's probably mostly read-only and I say, mostly read-only, oh, there you go. You'll get better but it's mostly read and so you're able to share the data, it's governed. I mean, it's exactly, quite genius how they've implemented this with its simplicity. It is a caching architecture. We've talked about that, we can geek out about that. There's good, there's bad, there's ugly but generally speaking, I guess my premise here I would love your thoughts. Is snowflakes trying to do something different? It's trying to be not just another data warehouse. It's not just trying to compete with data lakes. It's trying to create this data cloud to facilitate data sharing, put data in the hands of business owners in terms of a product build, data product builders. That's a different vision than anything I've seen thus far, your thoughts. >> I agree and even more going further, being a place where people can sell data. Put it up and make it available to whoever needs it and making it so simple that it can be shared across the country and across the world. I think it's a very powerful vision indeed. The challenge they have is that the pieces at the moment are very, very easy to use but the quality in terms of the, for example, joints, I mentioned, the joints were very powerful in Oracle. They don't try and do joints. They, they say >> They being Snowflake, snowflake. Yeah, they don't even write it. They would say use another Postgres >> Yeah. >> Database to do that. >> Yeah, so then they have a long way to go. >> Complex joints anyway, maybe simple joints, yeah. >> Complex joints, so they have a long way to go in terms of the functionality of their product and also in my opinion, they sure be going to have more types of databases inside it, including OLTP and they can do that. They have obviously got a great market gap and they can do that by acquisition as well as they can >> They've started. I think, I think they support JSON, right. >> Do they support JSON? And graph, I think there's a graph database that's either coming or it's there, I can't keep all that stuff in my head but there's no reason they can't go in that direction. I mean, in speaking to the founders in Snowflake they were like, look, we're kind of new. We would focus on simple. A lot of them came from Oracle so they know all database and they know how hard it is to do things like facilitate complex joints and do complex workload management and so they said, let's just simplify, we'll put it in the cloud and it will spin up a separate data warehouse. It's a virtual data warehouse every time you want one to. So that's how they handle those things. So different philosophy but again, coming back to some of the mission critical work and some of the larger Oracle customers, they said they have a thousand autonomous database customers. I think it was autonomous database, not ADW but anyway, a few stood out AON, lift, I think Deloitte stood out and as obviously, hundreds more. So we have people who misunderstand Oracle, I think. They got a big install base. They invest in R and D and they talk about lock-in sure but the CIO that I talked to and you talked to David, they're looking for business value. I would say that 75 to 80% of them will gravitate toward business value over the fear of lock-in and I think at the end of the day, they feel like, you know what? If our business is performing, it's a better business decision, it's a better business case. >> I fully agree, they've been very difficult to do business with in the past. Everybody's in dread of the >> The audit. >> The knock on the door from the auditor. >> Right. >> And that from a purchasing point of view has been really bad experience for many, many customers. The users of the database itself are very happy indeed. I mean, you talk to them and they understand why, what they're paying for. They understand the value and in terms of availability and all of the tools for complex multi-dimensional types of applications. It's pretty well, the only game in town. It's only DB2 and SQL that had any hope of doing >> Doing Microsoft, Microsoft SQL, right. >> Okay, SQL >> Which, okay, yeah, definitely competitive for sure. DB2, no IBM look, IBM lost its dominant position in database. They kind of seeded that. Oracle had to fight hard to win it. It wasn't obvious in the 80s who was going to be the database King and all had to fight. And to me, I always tell people the difference is that the chairman of Oracle is also the CTO. They spend money on R and D and they throw off a ton of cash. I want to say something about, >> I was just going to make one extra point. The simplicity and the capability of their cloud versions of all of this is incredibly good. They are better in terms of spending what you need or what you use much better than AWS, for example or anybody else. So they have really come full circle in terms of attractiveness in a cloud environment. >> You mean charging you for what you consume. Yeah, Mendelsohn talked about that. He made a big point about the granularity, you pay for only what you need. If you need 33 CPUs or the other databases you've got to shape, if you need 33, you've got to go to 64. I know that's true for everyone. I'm not sure if that's true too for snowflake. It may be, I got to dig into that a little bit, but maybe >> Yes, Snowflake has got a front end to hiding behind. >> Right, but I didn't want to push it that a little bit because I want to go look at their pricing strategies because I still think they make you buy, I may be wrong. I thought they make you still do a one-year or two-year or three-year term. I don't know if you can just turn it off at any time. They might allow, I should hold off. I'll do some more research on that but I wanted to make a point about the audits, you mentioned audits before. A big mistake that a lot of Oracle customers have made many times and we've written about this, negotiating with Oracle, you've got to bring your best and your brightest when you negotiate with Oracle. Some of the things that people didn't pay attention to and I think they've sort of caught onto this is that Oracle's SOW is adjudicate over the MSA, a lot of legal departments and procurement department. Oh, do we have an MSA? With all, Yes, you do, okay, great and because they think the MSA, they then can run. If they have an MSA, they can rubber stamp it but the SOW really dictateS and Oracle's gotcha there and they're really smart about that. So you got to bring your best and the brightest and you've got to really negotiate hard with Oracle, you get trouble. >> Sure. >> So it is what it is but coming back to Oracle, let's sort of wrap on this. Dominant position in mission critical, we saw that from the Gartner research, especially for operational, giant customer base, there's cloud-first notion, there's investing in R and D, open, we'll put a question Mark around that but hey, they're doing some cool stuff with Michael stuff. >> Ecosystem, I put that, ecosystem they're promoting their ecosystem. >> Yeah, and look, I mean, for a lot of their customers, we've talked to many, they say, look, there's actually, a tail at the tail way, this saves us money and we don't have to migrate. >> Yeah. So interesting, so I'll give you the last word. We started sort of focusing on the announcement. So what do you want to leave us with? >> My last word is that there are platforms with a certain key application or key parts of the infrastructure, which I think can differentiate themselves from the Azures or the AWS. and Oracle owns one of those, SAP might be another one but there are certain platforms which are big enough and important enough that they will, in my opinion will succeed in that cloud strategy for this. >> Great, David, thanks so much, appreciate your insights. >> Good to be here. Thank you for watching everybody, this is Dave Vellante for The Cube. We'll see you next time. (upbeat music)