>> live from Boston, Massachusetts. It's the you covering your red hat. Some twenty nineteen rots. You buy bread hat. >> Well, good afternoon. Welcome back here on the Cube as we continue our coverage of the Red Hat Summit and you know, every once in a while you come across one of these fascinating topics. It's what's doing I get so excited about when we do the Cube interviews is that you never know where >> you're >> going to go, the direction you're going to take. And I think this next interview has been a fit into one of those wow interviews for you at home. Along was to minimum. I am John Walls, and we're joined by Dr Ellen Grant, who was the director of the fetal neo NATO Neuroimaging and Developmental Science Center of Boston Children's Hospital. So far, so good, right? And the professor, Radiology and pediatrics at the Harvard Medical School's Dr Grant. Thank you for joining us here on the Cube and Dr Rudolph Pienaar, who is the technical director at the F n N D. S. C. And an instructor of radiology at the Harvard Medical School. So Dr Rudolph Pienaar, thank you for joining us as well. Thank you very much. All right. Good. So we're talking about what? The Chris Project, which was technically based. Project Boston Children's Hospital. I'm going to let you take from their doctor Grant. If you would just talk about the genesis of this program, the project, what its goal, wass And now how it's been carried out. And then we'LL bring in Dr PNR after that. So if you would place >> sure, it's so The goal of the Chris Project was to bring innovated imaging, announces to the bedside to the front end where clinicians are not like high are working all the time but aren't sophisticated enough or don't have enough memory to remember how to do, you know, line code in Lenox. So this is where initially started when I was reading clinical studies and I wanted to run a complex analysis, but there was no way to do it easily. I'd have tio call up someone to log into a different computer, bring the images over again lots of conflict steps to run that analysis, and even to do any of these analysis, you have to download the program set up your environment again. Many many steps, said someone. As a physician, I would rather deal with the interpretation and understanding the meaning of those images. Then all that infrastructure steps to bring it together. So that was the genesis of Chris's trying to have a simple Windows point and click way for a physician such as myself, to be able to rapidly do something interesting and then able to show it to a clinician in a conference or in the at the bedside >> and who's working on it, then, I mean, who was supplying what kind of manpower, If you will root off of the project >> kind of in the beginning, I would say maybe one way to characterize it is that we wanted to bring this research software, which lives mostly online, ex onto a Windows world, right? So the people developing that software researchers or computational researchers who do a lot of amazing stuff with image processing. But those tools just never make it really from the research lab outside of that. And one of the reasons is because someone like Ellen might not ever want to fire paternal and typing these commands. So people working on it are all this huge population of researchers making these tools on what we try to do. What I try to help with, How do we get those tools really easily usable in excess of one and, you know, to make a difference? Obviously. So that was a genesis. I was kind of need that we had in the beginning, so it started out, really, as a bunch of scrips, shell scripts, you slight a type of couple stuff, but not so many things on gradually, with time, we try to move to the Web, and then it began to grow and then kind of from the Web stretching to the cloud. And that's kind of the trajectory in the natural. As each step moved along, more and more people kind of came in to play. >> Dr Grant, I think back, you know, I work for a very large storage company and member object storage was going to transform because we have the giant files. We need to be able to store them and manage them and hold them up. But let's talk about the patient side of things. What does this really mean? You know, we had a talk about order of magnitude that cloud can make things faster and easier. But what? What does this mean to patient care? Quality service? >> Well, I think what it means or the goal for patient care is really getting to specialized medicine or individualized medicine on to be able to not just rely on my memory as to what a normal or abnormal images or the patients I may have seen just in my institution. But can we pull together all the knowledge across multiple institutions throughout the country and use more rigorous data announces to support my memory? So I want to have these big bridal in front lobes that air there, the cloud that helped me remember things into tidies connections and not have to remind just rely on my visual gestalt memory, which is obviously going to have some flaws in it. So and if I've never seen a specific disorder, say, for example, at my institution, if they've seen it at other institutions who run these comparisons all of sudden, I made be aware of a new treatment that otherwise I may not have known about >> All right, so one of my understanding is this is tied into the mass open cloud which I've had the pleasure of talking on the program at another show back here in Boston. Talk about a little bit about you know how this is enable I mean massive amounts of data you need to make sure you get that. You know the right data and it's valuable information and to the right people, and it gets updated all the time, so give us a little bit of the inner workings. >> Exactly. So thie inner workings, That's it can be a pretty big story, but kind of the short >> story time Theo Short >> story is that if we can get data in one place, and not just from one institution, from many places, that we can start to do things that are not really possible otherwise so, that's kind of the grand vision. So we're moving along those steps on the mass Open cloud for us makes perfect sense because it's there's a academic linked to Boston University. And then there's thie, Red Hat, being one of the academic sponsors as well in that for this kind of synergy that came together really almost perfectly at the right time, as the cloud was developing as where that was moving in it as we were trying to move to the cloud. It just began to link all together. And that's very much how we got there at the moment on what we're trying to do, which is get data so that we can cause medicine. Really, it's amazing to me. In some ways there's all these amazing devices, but computational e medicine lag so far behind the rest of the industry. There's so little integration. There's so little advanced processing going on. There's so much you can do with so little effort, you could do so much. So that's part of the >> vision as well. So help me out here a little bit, Yeah, I mean, maybe it before and after. Let's look at the situation may be clinically speaking here, where a finding or a revelation that you developed is now possible where it wasn't before and kind of what those consequences might have been. And then maybe, how the result has changed now. So maybe that would help paint up a practical picture of what we're talking about. >> I could use one example we're working on, but we haven't got fully to the clouds. All of these things are in their infancy because we still have to deal with the encryption part, which is a work in progress. But for example, we have mind our clinical databases to get examples of normal images and using that I can run comparisons of a case. It comes up to say whether this looks normal or abnormal sweat flags. The condition is to whether it's normal or abnormal, and that helps when there's trainees are people, not is experienced in reading those kinds of images. So again we're at the very beginnings of this. It's one set of pictures. There's many sets of pictures that we get, so there's a long road to get to fully female type are characterized anyone brain. But we're starting at the beginning those steps to very to digitally characterize each brain so we can then start to run. Comparisons against large libraries of other normals are large libraries of genetic disorders and start to match them up. And >> this is insecure. You working in fetal neural imaging as well. So you're saying you could take a an image of ah baby in a mother's womb and many hundreds thousands, whatever it is and you developed this basically a catalogue of what a healthy brain might look like. And now you're offering an opportunity to take a image here on early May of twenty nineteen. And compared to that catalogue, look and determine whether might be anabel normality that otherwise could have been spotted before. >> Correct and put a number to that in terms of a similarity value our probability values so that it's not just Mia's a collision, say Well, I think it's a little abnormal because it is hard to interpret that in terms of how severe is the spectrum of normal. How how? Sure you. So we put all these dated together. We can start to get more predictive value because we couldn't follow more kids and understand if it's that a a sima that too similar what's most likely disorder? What's the best treatment? So it gives you better FINA typing of the disorders that appear early and fetal life, some of which are linked to we think he treated, say, for example, with upcoming gene therapies and other nutritional intervention so we could do this characterization early on. We hope we can identify early therapies that our target to targeted to the abnormalities we detect. >> So intervene well ahead of time. Absolutely. >> I don't know. The other thing is, I mean Ellen has often times said how many images she looks at in the day on other radiologist, and it's it's amazing. It's she said, the number hundred thousand one point so you can imagine the human fatigue, right? So it Matt, imagine if you could do a quick pre processing on just flag ones that really are abnormal by you know they could be grossly abnormal. But at least let's get those on the top of the queue when you can look at it when you are much more able to, you know, think, think, think these things through. So there's one good reason of having these things sitting on an automated system. Stay out of the cloud over it might be >> Where are we with the roll out of this? This and kind of expansion toe, maybe other partners. >> So a lot of stuff has been happening over the last year. I mean, the the entire platform is still, I would say, somewhat prototypical, but we have a ll the pipelines kind of connected, so data can flow from a place like the hospital flowed to the cloud. Of course, this is all you know, protected and encrypted on the cloud weaken Do kind of weaken. Do any analysis we want to do Provided the analysis already exists, we can get the results back. Two definition we have the interface is the weapon to faces built their growing. So you can at this point, almost run the entire system without ever touching a command line. A year ago, it was partially there. A year ago, you had to use a command line. Now you don't have to. Next year will be even more streamlined. So this is the way it's moving right now and was great for me personally. About the cloud as well is that it's not just here in Boston where you, Khun benefit from using these technologies, you know, for the price of a cellphone on DH cell signal. You can use this kind of technology anywhere. You could be in the bush in Africa for argument's sake, and you can have access to these libraries of databases imaging that might exist. You, khun compare Images are collected wherever it might be just for the price of connecting to the Internet. >> You just need a broadband connection >> just right. Just exactly. >> Sometimes when you think about again about you know, we've talked about mobile technology five g coming on as it is here in the U. S. Rural health care leveling that and Third World, I was thinking more along the lines of here in the States and with some memories that just don't have access to the kind of, like, obviously platinum carry you get here in the Boston area. But all those possibilities would exist or could exist based on the findings that you're getting right now with Chris Project. So >> where does the Chris project go from here? >> Well, what we'd like to do is get more hospitals on board, uh, thinking pediatrics, we have a lot of challenge because there are so many different rare disorders that it's hard to study any one of them from one hospital. So we have to work together. There's been some effort to bring together some genetic databases, but we really need to being also the imaging bait databases together. So hopefully we can start to get a consortium of some of the pediatric hospitals working together. We need that also because normal for normal, you need to know the gender, the age, the thie ethnicity. You know, so many demographics that are nice to characterize what normal is. So if we all work together, we can also get a better idea of what is normal. What is normal variants. And there's a lot of other projects that are funded by N. H. Building up some of those databases as well, too. But we could put him into all into one place where we can actually now query on that. Then we could start to really do precision medicine. >> And the other thing, which we definitely are working on and I want to do, is build a community of developers around this platform because, you know, there's no way our team can write all of these tools. No, no, no, we want to. But we want everyone else who wants to make these tools very easily hop onto this platform. And that's very important to us because it's so much easier to develop to christen it just about the Amazon. There's almost no comparison. How much easier >> we'Ll Definitely theme, we hear echoing throughout Red Hat summit here is that Does that tie into, like, the open shift community? Or, you know, what is the intersection with red hat? >> It definitely does, because this is kind of the age of continue ization, which makes so many things so much easier on DH. This platform that we've developed is all about container ization. So we want to have medical by medical or any kind of scientific developers get onto that container ization idea because when they do that and it's not that hard to do. But when you do that, then suddenly you can have your your analysis run almost anywhere. >> And that's an important part in medicine, because I run the same analysis on different computers, get different results. So the container ization concept, I think, is something that we've been after, which is a reproduce ability that anybody can run it along there, use the same container we know we're going. Same result. And that is >> critical. Yes, especially with what you're doing right, you have to have that one hundred percent certainty. Yep. Standardisation goes along, Ray. Sort of fascinating stuff. Thank you both for joining us. And good luck. You're an exciting phase, that's for sure. And we wish you all the best going forward here. Thank you so much. Thank you both. Back with more from Boston. You're watching Red Hat Summit coverage live here on the Q t.

>> From Boston, Massachusetts, it's the Cube, covering LiveWorx 18, brought to you by PTC. (light electronic music) >> Welcome back to Boston, everybody. This is the Cube, the leader in live tech coverage. We're covering day one of the LiveWorx conference that's hosted by PTC. I'm Dave Vellante with my cohost Stu Miniman. Professor Linda A. Hill is here. She's the Wallace Brett Donham Professor of Business Administration at the Harvard Business School. Professor Hill, welcome to the Cube. Thanks so much for coming on. >> Thank you for having me. >> So, innovation, lot of misconceptions about innovation and where it stems from. People think of Steve Jobs, well, the innovation comes from a single leader and a visionary who gets us in a headlock and makes it all happen. That's not really how innovation occurs, is it? >> No, it is not, actually. Most innovation is the result of a collaboration amongst people of different expertise and different points of view, and in fact, unless you have that diversity and some conflict, you rarely see innovation. >> So this is a topic that you've researched, so this isn't just an idea that you had. You've got proof and documentation of this, so tell us a little more about the work that you do at Harvard. >> So really over 10 years ago, I began to look at the connection between leadership and innovation, because it turns out that like a lot of organizations, the academy is quite siloed, so the people studying innovation were very separate from the ones who studied leadership, and we look at the connection between the two. When you look at that, what you discover is that leading innovation is actually different from leading change. Leading change is about coming up with a vision, communicating that vision, and inspiring people to want to fulfill that vision. Leading innovation is not about that. It's really more about how do you create a space in which people will be willing and able to do the kind of collaborative work required for innovation to happen? >> Sometimes I get confused, maybe you can help me, between invention and innovation. How should we think about those two dimensions? >> Innovation and invention. The way I think about it is an innovation is something that's both an invention, i.e. new, plus useful. So it can be an innovation or it can be creative, but unless it's useful and addresses an opportunity or a challenge that an organization faces, for me, that's not an innovation. So you need both, and that is really the paradox. How do you unleash people's talents and passions so you get the innovation or the invention or the new, and then how do you actually combine that, or harness all of those different ideas so that you get something that is useful, that actually solves a problem that the collective needs solved? >> So there's an outcome that involves changing something, adoption, as part of that innovation. >> For instance, one of the things that we're doing a lot right now is we're working with organizations, incumbents, I guess you'd call them, that have put together these innovation labs to create digital assets. And the problem is that those digital assets get created, they're new, if you will, but unless the core business will adopt them and use them, they get implemented, they're not going to be useful. So we're trying to understand, how do you take what gets created in those innovation labs, those assets, if you will, and make sure that the organization takes them in and scales them so that you can actually solve a business problem? >> Professor Hill, a fascinating topic I love digging into here. Because you see so many times, startups are often people that get frustrated inside a large company. I've worked for some very large companies, so which have had labs, or research division, and even when you carve aside time for innovation, you do programs on that, there's the corporate antibodies that fight against that. Maybe talk a little bit about that dynamic. Can large companies truly innovate? >> Yes, large companies can truly innovate. We do see it happening, it is not easy by any means, and I think part of the dilemma for why we don't see more innovation is actually our mindset about what leadership is about and who can innovate. So if I could combine a couple of things you asked, invention, often when we talk to people about what is innovation, they think about technology, and they think about new, and if I'm not a technologist and I'm not creative, then I can't play the game. But what we see in organizations, big ones that can innovate, is they don't separate out the innovators from the executors. They tell everybody, guess what, your job no matter who you are, of course you need to deal with making sure we get done what we said we'd deliver, but if we're going to delight our customers or we're ever going to really get them to be sticky with us, you also need to think about not just what should you be doing, but what could you be doing. In the literature, in the research, that's called how do you close an opportunity gap and not just a performance gap? In the organizations we look at that are innovative, that can innovate time and again, they have a very democratic notion: everybody has a role to play. So our work, Collective Genius, is called Collective Genius because what we saw in Pixar was the touchstone for that work, is that they believe everybody has a slice of genius. They're not equally big or whatever, but everybody has a contribution to make, and you need to use yours to come up with what's new and useful. A lot of that will be incremental, but some of it will be breakthrough. So I think what we see with these innovation labs and the startups, if you will, is that often people do go to start them up, of course they eventually have to grow their business, so a part of what I find myself doing now is helping startups that have to scale, figure out how to maintain that culture, those capabilities, that allowed them to be successful in the first place, and that's tough one for startups, right? >> Yeah, I think Pixar's only about a 1,500 person company and they all have creativity in wat they do. I'm wondering if there's some basic training that's missing. I studied engineering and I didn't get design training in my undergraduate studies. It wasn't until I was out in the workforce that I learned about that. What kind of mindset and training do you have to do to make sure the people are open to this? >> One of the things that I did related to this is about five years ago, I told our dean of Harvard Business School that I needed to join the board of an organization called Arts Center. I don't know if you were aware of Arts Center in Pasadena. It's the number one school of industrial design in the U.S., and people don't know about it 'cause I always laugh at them. The man who designed the Apple store is a graduate there. The man who designed Tesla car and et cetera, so they're not so good at it, but one of the things that we've all come to understand is design thinking, lean startup, these are all tools that can help you be better at innovation, but unless you create an environment around that, people are going to be willing to use those tools and make the missteps, the failures that might come with it, know how to collaborate together, even when they're a large organization, I mean it's easier when you're smaller. But unless you know how to do all that, those tools, the lean startup or digital or design thinking or whatever, ' cause I'm working with a lot of the people who do that, and deep respect for them, nothing gets done. In the end, we are human, we all need to know first off that it's worthwhile to take the risk to get done whatever it is you want to get done, so what's the purpose of the work, how's it going to change the world? The second thing is we need to share a set of values about learning because we have to understand, as you well know, you cannot plan your way to an innovation, you have to act your way. And with the startup, you act as fast as you can, right, so somebody will give you enough money before you run out of money. Same similar process you have to do in a large company, an incumbent, but of course it's more complicated. The other thing that makes it more complicated is companies are global, and the other part of it that makes it more complicated that I'm seeing like in personalized medicine: you need to build an ecosystem of different kinds, of nanotechnologists, biotechnologists, different expertise to come together. All of this, frankly, you don't learn any of it in school. I remember learning that you can't teach anyone how to lead. You actually have to help people learn how to lead themselves and technologists will frequently say to me, i don't know why, you're a leadership professor? Well, this is a technical problem. We just haven't figured out the platform right, and once we get it right, all will be. No, once you get it right, humans are still going to resist change and not know how to necessarily learn together to get this done. >> I wonder if, are there any speacial leadership skills we need for digital transformation? Really kind of the overarching theme of the show here, help connect the dots for us. >> So the leading change piece is about having a vision, communicating it, and inspiring people. What it really does turn out when we look at exceptional leaders of innovation, and all of us would agree that they've done wonderful things time and again, not just once, they understand that is collective. They spend time building a culture and capabilities that really will support people collaborating together. The first one they build is, how do we know how to create a marketplace of ideas through debate and discourse? Yeah, you can brainstorm, but eventually, we have to abrade and have conflict. They know how to have healthy debates in which people are taught terms of skills, basic stuff, not just listening and inquiring, but how to actively advocate in a constructive way for your point of view, these leaders have to learn how to amplify difference, whereas many leaders learn how to minimize it. And as the founder of Pixar once said, you can never have too many cooks in the kitchen. Many people believe you can. It's like today, you need as much talent as you can get. Your job as a leader, what are the skills you need to get those top cooks to be able to cook a meal together, not to reduce the amount of diversity. You got to be prepared for the healthy fight. >> You've pointed this out in some of your talks is that you've got to have that debate. >> Yes, you have to. >> That friction, to create innovation, but at the same time it has to be productive. I know it can be toxic to an organization, maybe talk about that a little. >> I think one of the challenges is what skills do people need to learn? One is, how do you deal with conflict when people are very talented and passionate? I think many people avoid conflict or don't know how to engage that constructively, just truly don't, and they avoid it. I find that many times organizations aren't doing what they need to do because the leadrr is uncomfortable. The other thing, and I'm going to stereotype horribly here, but I'm an introvert, that book quiet is wonderful, but one of the challenges you have if you're more introverted or if you're more technical and you tend to look at things from a technical point of view, in some ways is that you often find the people with that kind of, that's what drives them, there's a right answer, there's a rational answer we need to get through or get to, as opposed to understanding that really innovative ideas are often the combination of ideas that look like they're in conflict initially, and by definition, you need to have the naive eye and the expert working together to come up with that innovative solution, so for someone who's a technologist to think they should listen to someone who's naive about a technical problem, just the very basic mindset you have about who's going to have the idea. So that's a tricky one, it's a mindset, it's not even just a skill level, it's more, who do you think actually is valuable? Where is that slice that you need at this moment going to come from? It may not be from that expert, it may be from the one who had no point of view. I heard a story that I was collecting my data, and apparently, Steve Jobs went to see Ed Land. We're here in Boston over Polaroid, which is one of our most innovative companies, right, in the history. And he said, what do I need to learn from you? And what Land said to him is, whenever my scientist and technologist get stuck, I have some of the art students or the humanities students come in and spend time in the lab. They will ask the stupid question because they don't know it's stupid. The expert's not going to ask the stupid question, particularly the tech expert, not going to ask it. They will ask the question that gets the first principles. I think, but I wouldn't want to be held to this, the person who was telling me the story, that's partly how they came up with the instant camera. Some naive person said, why do I have to wait? Why can't I have it now? And of course, silly so-and-so, you don't know it takes this, that, and the others. Then someone else thought, why does she have to wait? I think it was really a she who asked the question, the person telling me this, and they came up with a different way. Who said it has to be done in a darkroom in that way? I think that there's certain things about our mindset independently of our skill, that get in the way of our actually hearing all the different voices we need to hear to get that abrasion going in the right way. >> Listening to those Columbo questions, you say, can sometime lead to an outcome that is radically different. There's a lot of conversation in our industry, the technology industry, about, we call it the cordially shock clock, the companies are on a cordially reporting mechanism or requirement from the SEC. A lot of complaints about that, but at the same time, it feels like at least in the tech business, that U.S. companies tend to be more innovative. But again, you hear a lot of complaints about, well, they can't think for the long term. Can you help us square that circle? >> It's funny, so one thing is you rarely ever get innovation without constraint. If you actually talk to people who are trying to innovate, there needs to be the boundaries around it in which they're doing the constraint. To be completely free rarely leads to, it is the constraint. Now we did do a study of boards to try to understand when is a board facilitating innovation and when is a board interfering with it? We interviewed CEOs and lead directors of a number of companies and wrote an article about that last year, and what we did find is many boards actually are seen as being inhibitors. They don't help management make the right decision. Then of course the board would say now management's the one that's too conservative, but this question about how the board, with guidance, and all of these issues have come up when you're looking at research analysts and who you play to, and I've been on corporate boards. One thing is that the CEO needs to know that the board is actually going to be supportive of his or her choices relative to how you communicate why you're making the choices you're making. So there is pressure, and I think it's real. We can't tell CEOs, no, you don't need to care about it, 'cause guess what, they do get in trouble if they don't. On the other hand, if they don't know how to make the argument for investing in terms of helping the company grow, so in the long run, innovation is not innovation for innovation's sake, it's to meet customer needs so you can grow, so you need to have a narrative that makes sense and be able to talk with people, the different stakeholders, about why you're making certain choices. I must say that I think that many times companies may be making the right choice for the long haul, and get punished in the short run, for sure that happens, but I also think that there are those companies that get a way with a lot of investment in the long haul, partly because they do, over time, deliver, and there is evidence that they're making the right choices or have built a culture where people think what they're saying might actually happen or be delivered. What's happening right now because of the convergence of industries, is I think a lot of CEOS, it's a frightening time, it is difficult to sustain success these days, because what you have to do is innovate at low cost. Going back to some other piece about boards, one of the things we've found is so many board members define innovation as being technology. Technology has a very important enabling role to play in otherwise, but they have such a narrow definition of it in a way that again, they create a culture to let the people in the innovation lab innovate, but not one where everybody understands that all of us, together, need to innovate in ways that will also prepare us to execute better. They don't see the whole culture transformation, digital transformation often requires cultural transformation for you to be able to get this stuff done, and that's what takes a long time. Takes a long time to get rid of your legacy systems and put in these new, or get that balance right, but what takes even longer is getting the culture to be receptive to using that new data capability they have and working in different ways and collaborating when they've been very siloed and they're paid to be very siloed. I think that unless you show, as a CEO, that you are actually putting all of those building blocks in place, and that's what you're about, you understand it's a transformation at that level, you're just talking to the analysts about, we're going to do x, and there's no evidence about your culture or anything else going on, how you're going to lead to attract and retain the kind of talent you need, no one's buying that, I think that that's the problem. There's not a whole story that they're telling about how this goes together and they're going to move forward on it. >> To your other point, is there data to suggest, can you quantify the relationship between diversity and innovation? >> There are some data about that, I don't have it. I find it's very funny, as you can see, I'm an African-American woman. My work is on leadership globalization and innovation. I do a lot of work on how you deliver global strategies. I often find when I'm working with senior teams, they'll ask me, would you help us with our inclusion effort? And I think it's partly because of who I am and diversity comes up in our work, and if you actually build the environments for talking about, they tend to be more inclusive about diversity of thought. Not demographic diversity, those can be separate as we well know because we know Silicon Valley is not a place where you see a lot of demographic diversity, but you might see diversity of thought. I haven't asked, it's interesting, I have had some invitations by governments, too. Japan, which has womenomics, which is a part of their policy If they need to get more women in the economy, frankly, otherwise they can't grow as an economy. It turns out that the innovation story is the business case that many businesses or business people find one that they can buy into, doesn't feel like you're doing it 'cause it's the right thing, or not that you shouldn't do the right thing, but helping them understand how you really, really make sure that the minority voice is heard, and I mean minority of thought, independent of demographic, but if you create an environment as a leader where you actually run your team so that people do feel they can speak up, as you all know. It's so often, I'll talk to people afterwards and they'll say, I didn't say what I really thought about those ideas because I didn't want to be punished or I didn't want to step in that person's territory. People are making decisions based on varying complete information everyone knows. What often happens is it gets escalated up. We had this one senior team complaining, everything is so slow here, a very big bank, not the one I'm on the board of, another very big bank we're working with. Everything's so slow, people won't do anything. So when we actually ask people, what's happening? Why aren't you making decisions? First off, decisions making rights are very fuzzy in this organization, except for at the very top, so what they say is all decisions, actually, they're made on the 34th floor. We escalate 'cause if you make a decision, they're going to turn it over anyway, so we've backed off, or we don't say what we think 'cause I don't want them to say what they think about my ideas 'cause we actually have very separate business units here. >> We might get shot. >> You might get shot. That's the reality that many people live in, so we're not surprised to see that not very many organizations can innovate time and again when we think about the reality of what our contexts are. The good news for us is that in part, millennials won't tolerate some of these environments in the same way, which is going to be a good thing. I think they're marvelous to work with, I'm not one of them obviously, but I think a lot of what they're requesting, the transparency, the understanding the connections between what they do and are they having impact, the desire to be developed and be learning, and wanting to be an organization they're not ashamed of but in fact they're very proud to be a part of what's happening there, I think that that requires businesses and leaders to behave differently. One of the businesses we studied, if the millennial wants to know who's on the front line, he or she is making a difference. They had to do finance differently to be able to show, to draw the cause and effect between what that person was doing every day and how it impacted the client's work. That ended up being a really interesting task. Or a supply chain leader, who really needed them to think very differently about supply chain so they could innovate. What he ended up doing is, instead of thinking about our customers being the pharmaceutical company, the CBS or the big hospital chain or whatever it is, think about the end customer. What would we have to do with supply chain to ensure that that end patient took his or her pill on time and got better? And when they shifted the whole meaning of the work to that individual patient in his or her home, he was able, over time, to get the whole supply chain group organization to understand, we're not doing what we need to do if we're really going to reduce diabetes in the world because the biggest problem we have is not when they go and get their medication, it's whether they actually use it properly when they're there. So when you switched it to that being the purpose of the work, the mindset that everyone had to have, that's what we're delivering on. Everyone said, oh, this is completely appropriate, we needed digital, we need different kind of data to know what's going on there. >> Don't get me started on human health. Professor Hill, for an introvert, you're quite a storyteller, and we appreciate you sharing your examples and your knowledge. Thanks so much for coming on the Cube. It was great to meet you. >> Been my pleasure, glad to know you, thank you. >> Keep it right there, everybody, Stu and I will be back right after this short break. You're watching the Cube from LiveWorx in Boston. We'll be right back. (light electronic music)

>> Narrator: Live from Stanford University in Palo Alto, California. It's theCUBE. Covering Women in Data Science Conference 2018. Brought to you by Stanford. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back to theCUBE. We are live at Stanford University for the Third Annual Women in Data Science WiDS Conference. I'm Lisa Marten and we've had a great morning so far talking with a lot the speakers and participants at this event here at Stanford, which of course is going on globally as well. Very excited to be joined by one of the Keynotes this morning at WiDS, Latanya Sweeney, the Professor of Government and Technology from Harvard. Latanya, thank you so much for stopping by theCUBE. >> Well thank you for having me. >> Absolutely. So you are a computer scientist by training. WiDS as a mentioned is in its third year, they're expecting a 100,000 people to engage. There's a 177 I think, Margot said, regional WiDS events going on right now. In 53 countries. >> Isn't that amazing? >> It is! >> It's so exciting. >> Incredible in such a short period of time. What is it about WiDS that was attraction to you saying, "Yes, I want to participate in this event." >> Well one of the issues is just simply the idea the data science represents this sort of wave of change, of how do I analyze data? How do I make it different? And the conference itself celebrating the fact that women are taking the step, is hugely important. I mean, when I was a graduate student at MIT, I was the first black woman to get a PhD in Computer Science from MIT. And sort of, no women you really just didn't see women in this area at all. So when I come to a conference like WiDS, it's huge. It's just huge to see all these walls broken down. >> I love that walls breaking down, barriers kind of evaporating. In your time though at MIT, I'd love to understand a little bit more. Were you very conscience, "Hey I'm one of the very "few females here?" (Latanya laughs) Did it bother you or were you just, "You know what, "this is my passion, and I don't care. "I'm going to keep going forward." What was that experience like? >> Well, at first I was very naive, in a belief that you know all that really mattered was the work I did. And, I never had problems with the students, but I did have lots of problems with the professors, with this idea that you had to be like them in ways that was beyond your brain or your work, in order to really be exalted by them. And so, so whether I wanted to admit it, or whether I just wanted to ignore it, it just sort of came crashing down. >> Did you have mentors at that time, or did you think, "You know what, I'm not finding anybody "that I can really follow. "I've got to by my own mentor right now." >> Right, I mean I don't think my experience is really that uncommon for women in my generation. Very difficult to find mentors who would be complete mentors, complete see themselves in you and really try to exalt you and navigate you. What women often have found is that they can find a partial person here, and a partial person there. One who can help them in this regard, or that regard, but not the same kind of idea that you would be the superstar of one of these mentors. And it's not to take away from the fact that there have been these angels in my life, who made a big difference, and so I don't want to take away from that that somehow I did this all by myself. That's not true. >> So with the conference today, one of the things that Maria Klawe said in her welcome remarks was encouraging this generation, "Don't be worried if there's something "that you're not good at." So I loved how she was sort of encouraging people to sort of, women sort of, let go of maybe some of those preconceived notions that, "I can't do this. "I'm not good at that." I think that it's very liberating and still in 2018 with the fact there is such a diversity gap, it's still so needed. What were maybe some of the three takeaways, if you will, of your Keynote this morning that you imparted on the audience? >> Was that technology design is the new policy maker. That they're making policy, the design itself is making policy, but nobody's like monitoring it. But we could in fact use data science to monitor, to show the unforeseen consequences, and in the examples that we've done that, we've had big impact on the world. >> So share some of that with us, because that's your focus. You're in... What department in Harvard? You said government? >> So I sit in the government department. >> Unforeseen consequences of technology? >> Yes. >> Tell us about that. >> Well, you know, so in the Keynote, I talked about examples where technology is basically challenging every democratic value that we have. And sort of like no one's really aware, we kind of think about it here and there, but by doing simple data science experiments, we can quantify that. We can demonstrate it, and by doing that we shore up sort of those who can help us the most; the advocates, the regulators, and journalists. And so I gave examples from my own work and from the work of my students. >> Tell me a little bit about your students actually. Are they undergrads? Do you also have graduate students as well? >> I have both. >> You have both. >> Both. The talk was about, I teach a class called Data Science to Save the World, and we tackle three to four real world problems within the semester, that we solve. And then the students love to do their own independent projects, and at the end many of those go on to be published papers. >> Wow! I feel like you need to have a cape or some sort of superhero emblem. We can work on that later. But tell me about the diversity within the student body at Harvard in your classes. Are you finding, what's maybe the ratio of men to women, for example? >> Well you know many of the universities from my time have really changed. So when I was an undergraduate the typical classroom of Harvard undergrads would be all white men, or mostly all white men. >> Lisa: Sounds like a lot of STEM's still. (Latanya laughs) >> Yeah, but now if you walk into Harvard we see a lot more diversity within the university. I'm also a faculty dean at one of the residential houses, and so the diversity is huge. However, when you start getting into computer science, you start seeing, you don't see as much diversity. But in the Data Sciences of the World course, we get students from all over. They come from different backgrounds. They come in different colors, shapes, and sizes. Each with a skillset and a desire to learn how to have impact. >> I think that desire is key. How do you help them sort of build their own confidence in terms of, regardless of what color, flavor, you know my peer group is, I like this. I want to be in this. How do you help ignite that confidence within someone that's quite new into this? >> So if you're 20 something or almost 20, and you do something that a regulator changes their laws, or a newspaper article picks up, or you're on the Today Show, that pretty much changes the course of your life, and that's what we found with the students. That some of them have done just some remarkable work that's really been picked up and exalted, and it's stayed with them. It would change the direction in which they've gone. So what we do in the course, is we teach them that there's just so many problems that are low hanging, and how to spot a problem, an issue that they can solve, and how to solve it in a way that can be have impact. And that's really what the course focus is on. >> That impact is so important to just continue to fuel someones fire, and for that person to then be empowered to be able to ignite a fire under somebody else. I think one of the things that you mentioned sort of speaks to some of the things that we're seeing in these boundaries and lines are blurring. Not just so much even on from a gender perspective, but even career path A, B, C, D, now it's data is fueling the world. Every company is becoming a company because they have to be, right, to make consumer demands and just grow and be profitable as a business. But I also I like the parallel there that these rigid maybe, more rigid lines of careers are now opening up, because like you're saying, you can make impact being a data scientist. In every sector you can influence policy and wow, what a huge opportunity. It's almost like it's infinite, right? >> Yeah. I mean if you look at even the range of talks in the conference today, you get a great sense of not only new tools in different areas, but just the sheer spectrum of areas in which data science is playing. And that these women are already working it, already have the impact. >> So, speaking of the conference today, one of the things that I think is that we're hearing, is it's not just about inspiring, I think, Maria Klawe had said in theCUBE previous to today, that she found that young women in their first semester of university college courses, are probably like the right age and time in their lives to really ignite a spark, but I think there's also sort of a reinvigoration of the women that have been in technology and STEM fields for a while. Are you feeling and hearing kind of some of the same things from your peers and colleagues here? >> Definitely. We see it at the two levels. It's really important to try to get them in freshman year before they have a discipline defined for themselves, or how they see themselves. So that you can sort of ignite that spark and keep that spark alive. But then later women who, women or others, who are already in a field and looking for a way to sort of release and redefine themselves, data science is definitely giving them that opportunity. >> It really is. So what are some of the things that you're looking forward to for your career at Harvard as 2018 moves forward? >> Well, we, you know, the students we try to tackle the big problems. Election vulnerabilities has been a big one for us, on our agenda. The privacy of publicly available data is another big one that we've been working on. Well I think that's enough for awhile. (laughs) >> Lisa: That's pretty big. >> Yeah. >> I think so. >> Yeah, we'll get those done! >> Well that and you know, designing the logo for the t-shirt cause you definitely need to have a superpower t-shirt. So last question for you, if you could give young Latanya advice, when you were just starting out college, not knowing any of this was going to happen in terms of this movement that is WiDS and 2018, what would some of those key advice points for you, for your younger self be? >> To believe in yourself. To believe in yourself and that it's going to work out. One of the things that I grew to learn was how to turn lemons into lemonade, and that turns out to be very, very powerful, because it's a way to bounce back when you're faced with things that you can't control, that people are trying to put obstacles in your way, you just sort of find another way to keep going. And the world sort of bended towards me, so that was really cool. >> And also that failure is not a bad F word, right? (Latanya laughs) >> That's absolutely correct. >> It's part of a natural course and I think any leader and whatever and just you're in whatever, country whatever ethnicity, gender, everybody has I wouldn't even say missteps, it's just part of life, but I think... >> Yeah it's just part of the what... And Harvard like I said, I am the dean in one of the faculty houses, and one of the main things that we do each, throughout the year, is invite speakers and who're accomplished in whatever area they're in, but the one thing that they all have in common is they took this really roundabout way to get where they are. And a lot of that was because failures and blocks came in the way, and that's really important I think for young adults to really understand. >> I agree. Well, Latanya, thank you so much for carving out some time to stop by and chat with us on theCUBE. We are excited to have your wisdom shared to our audience and we wish you a great rest of the conference. >> Alright, thank you very much. >> We'll see you next time on theCUBE. >> Okay. >> We want to thank you for watching theCUBE. I'm Lisa Marten. We are live from the Third Annual Women in Data Science Conference at Stanford University. Stick around after this short break, I'll be back with my next guest. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live, from Stanford University, it's theCUBE, covering the Women in Data Science Conference 2017. (upbeat music) >> Hi and welcome back to theCUBE, I'm Lisa Martin and we are at Stanford University for the second annual Women in Data Science Conference. Fantastic event with leaders from all different industries. Next we're joined by Finale Doshi-Velez. You are the Associate Professor of Computer Science at Harvard University. Welcome to the program. >> Excited to be here. >> You're a technical speaker so give us a little bit of insight as to what some of the attendees, those that are attending live and those that are watching the livestream across 75 locations. What are some of the key highlights from your talk that they're going to learn? >> So my main area is working on machine learning for healthcare applications and what I really want people to take away from my talk is all the needs and opportunities there are for data science to benefit patients in very very tangible ways. There's so much power that you can use with data science these days and I think we should be applying it to problems that really matter, like healthcare. >> Absolutely, absolutely. So talking about healthcare you kind of see the intersection, that's your big focus, is the intersection of machine learning and healthcare. What does that intersection look like from a real world applicability perspective? What are some of the big challenges? And can you talk about maybe specific diseases that you're maybe working on-- >> Sure, absolutely. So I'll tell you about two examples. One example that we're working on is with autism spectrum disorder. And as the name suggests, it's a really broad spectrum. And so things that might work well for one sort of child might not work for a different sort of child. And we're using big data and machine learning to figure out what are the natural categories here and once we can divide this disease into subgroups, we can maybe do better treatment, better prognosis for these children, rather than lumping them into this big bucket-- >> Lisa: And treating everybody the same? >> Exactly. >> Lisa: Right. >> And another area we're working on is personalizing treatment selection for patients with HIV and with depression. And again, in these cases, there's a lot of heterogeneity in how people respond to the diseases. >> Lisa: Right. >> And with the large data sets that we now have available, we actually have huge opportunities in getting the right treatments to the right people. >> That's fantastic, so exciting. And it's really leveraging data as a change agent to really improve the lives of patients. >> Finale: Absolutely. >> From a human interaction perspective, we hear that machine learning is going to replace jobs. It's really kind of a known fact. But human insight is still quite important. Can you share with us-- >> Finale: Absolutely. >> where the machines and the humans come into play to help some of these dis-- >> Yes, so a big area that we work on is actually in formalizing notions of interpretability because in the healthcare setting, the data that I use is really really poor quality. There's lots of it. It's collected in a standard of care everyday but it's biased, it's messy. And you really need the clinician to be able to vet the suggestions that the agent is making. Because there might be some bias, some confounder, some reason why the suggestions actually don't make sense at all. And so a big area that we're looking at is how do you make these algorithms interpretable to domain experts such as clinicians, but not data experts. And so this is a really important area. And I don't see that clinician being replaced anytime soon in this process. But what we're allowing them to do is look at things that they couldn't look at before. They're not able to look at the entire patient's record. They certainly can't look at all the patient records for the entire hospital system when making recommendations. But they're still going to be necessary because you also need to talk to the patient and figure out what are their needs, do they care about a drug, that might cause weight gain for example, when treating depression. And all of these sorts of things. Those are not factors again that the machine are going to be able to take over. >> Lisa: Right. >> But it's really an ecosystem where you need both of these agents to get the best care possible. >> Got it, that's interesting. From an experimentation perspective, are you running these different experiments simultaneously, how do you focus your priorities, on the autism side, on the depression side? >> I see, well I have a lab, so that helps makes things easy. >> Lisa: Yup, you got it. >> I have some students working on some projects-- >> Lisa: Excellent >> And some students working on other projects, And we really, we follow the data. My collaborations are largely chosen based on areas where there are data available and we believe we can make an impact. >> Fantastic, speaking of your students, I'd love to understand a little bit more. You teach computer science to undergrads. >> Yes. >> As we look at how we're at this really inflection point with data science; there's so much that can be done in that, to your point, in tangible ways the differences that we can make. Kids that are undergrads at Harvard these days grew up with technology and the ability to get something like that; we didn't. So what are some of the things that have influenced them to want to become the next generation of computer or data scientists? >> I mean, I think most of them just realize that computers and data are essential in whatever field they are. They don't necessarily come to Harvard thinking that they're going to become data scientists. But in whatever field that they end up in, whether it's economics or government, they quickly realize, or business, they quickly realize that data is very important. So they end up in my undergraduate machine learning course. And for these students, my main focus is just to teach them, what the science, what the field can do, and also what the field can't do. And teach them that with great power comes great responsibility. So we're really focused on evaluation and just understanding on how to use these methods properly. >> So looking at kind of traditional computer, data science skills: data analytics, being able to interpret, mathematics, statistics, what are some of the new emerging skills that the future generation of data and computer scientists needs to have, especially related to the social skills and communication? >> So I think that communication is absolutely essential. At Harvard, I think we're fortunate because most of these people are already in a different field. They're also taking data science so they're already very good at communicating. >> Lisa: Okay. >> Because they're already thinking about some other area they want to apply in. >> So they've got, they're getting really a good breadth. >> They're getting a really great breadth, but in general, I think it is on us, the data scientists, to figure out how do we explain the assumptions in our algorithms to people who are not experts again in data science, because that could have really huge downstream effects. >> Absolutely. I like what you said that these kids understand that the computers and technology are important whatever they do. We've got a great cross section of speakers at this event that are people of, that are influencing this in retail, in healthcare, in education, and as well as in sports technology, on the venture capital side. And it really shows you that this day and age, everything is technology, every company we're in, we're sitting in Silicon Valley of course, where a car company is a technology company. But that's a great point that the next generation understands that it's prolific. I can't do anything without understanding this and knowing how to communicate it. So from your background perspective, were you a STEM kid from way back and you really just loved math and science? Is that what shaped your career? >> So I grew up in a family with like 15 generations back, accounting, finance, small business, and I was like, I'm never going to do any of this. (Lisa laughs) I am going to do something completely different. >> Lisa: You were determined, right. >> And so now I'm a data scientist. (laughing) >> At Harvard, that's pretty good, they must be proud. >> Working on healthcare applications. So I think numbers were definitely very much part of my upbringing, from the beginning. But one thing that I think did take a while for me to put together is that I came from a family where my great uncle was part of India's independence movement. My role models were people like Martin Luther King and Mother Teresa and I liked numbers. >> Lisa: Yeah. >> And, like how to put those together? And I think it definitely took me a while to figure out okay, how do you deliver those warm fuzzies with like cold hard facts. >> Lisa: Right. >> And I'm really glad that we're in a place today where the sort of skills that I have can be used to do enormous social good. >> What are some of the things that you're most excited about about this particular conference and being involved here? >> So I think conferences like these, like the Women in Data Science, I'm also involved in the Women in Machine Learning Conference, are a tremendous opportunity for people to find mentors and cohorts. So I went to my first Women in Machine Learning Conference over 10 years ago, and those are the people I still talk to whenever I need career advice, when I'm trying to figure out what I want to do with my research and what directions, or just general support. And when you're in a field where you maybe don't see that many women around you, it's great to have this connection so that you can draw on that wherever you end up. Your workplace may or may not have that many women but you know that they're out there and you can get support. >> Now that there's so much data available, a lot of the spirit of corporations that use data as a change agent have adopted cultures or tried, of try it, it might fail, but we're going to learn something from this. Do you see that mentality in your students about being free or being confident enough to try experiments and if they fail, take learnings from it and move forward as a positive? >> I mean, certainly that's what I try to teach my students. >> Lisa: Yeah, yeah. >> My graduate students I tell them, I expect you to make consistent progress. Progress includes failure if you can explain why it failed. And that's huge, that's how we learn and that's how we develop new algorithms, absolutely. >> Yeah, and I think that confidence is a key factor. You mention that Women in Machine Learning Conference, you've been involved in that for 10 years, how have you seen women's perspectives, maybe confidence evolve and change and grow as a result of this continued networking? Are you seeing people become more confident-- >> Finale: I think so. >> To be able to try things and experiments. >> I mean certainly, as people stay involved in the field, I've noticed that you develop that network, you develop that confidence, it's amazing. The first event had less than a hundred people. The last event that we had had over 500 people. The number of people at just the Women in Machine Learning event, was the same as the number of people at the entire conference 10 years ago. >> Right. >> Right, and so the field has grown but the number of women involved that you see through this events like WIDS and WIML I think is enormous. >> And the great thing that's happening here at WIDS 2017 is it's being live streamed. >> Finale: Right. >> Over 75 locations. >> So it's accessible to so many people. >> Exactly. >> Yes. >> We're expecting up to 6,000 people on the live stream. So the reach and the extension is truly global. >> Which is fantastic. >> It is fantastic and just the breadth of speakers that are here to influence. You mentioned a couple of your key influencers: Martin Luther King and Mother Teresa. From an education perspective, when you were trying to figure out your love of math and numbers and that, who were some of the people in your early career that were really inspiring and helped you gain that confidence that you would need to do what you're doing? >> So I think if I had to pick one person, it was probably a professor at MIT that I interacted quite a bit in my undergrad and continued to mentor me, Leslie Kaelbling, who is just absolutely fearless in just telling people to follow their passions. Because we really are super privileged as was mentioned earlier: we lose our jobs, we can just get another one. >> Lisa: Right. >> Right? And our skills are so in need that we can and we should try to do amazing things that we care about. And I think that message really stayed with me. >> Absolutely. >> So you got research going on in autism. You mentioned depression. What's next for you? What are some of your next interests? Cancer research, other things like that? >> So I'm actually really interested in mental health because I think that that's, you know, talk about messy spaces, in terms of data. (laughing) It's very hard to quantify but it has a huge, huge burden both to the people who suffer from mental health disorders, which is like close to 15 percent, 20 percent, depending on how you count. But also it has a huge burden on everyone else too, on like lost work, on the people around them. And so we're working with depression and autism, as I mentioned. And we're hoping to branch out into other neurodevelopmental disorders, as well as adult psychiatric disorders. And I feel like in this phase, it's even harder to find the right treatments. And the treatments take so long to test, six to eight weeks. And it can be so hard to keep up the morale, to keep trying out a treatment when your disorder is one that makes it hard to keep up trying whatever you need to try. >> Lisa: Right. >> So that's an area that I'm really focusing on these days. >> Well then your passion is clearly there. That intersection of machine learning and healthcare. You're right, you're talking about something that maybe isn't talked about nearly as much as some of other big diseases but it's one that is prolific. It affects so many. And it's exciting to know that there are people out there like you who really have a passion for that and are using data as a change agent to help current generations and future to come. So Finale, such a pleasure to have you on theCUBE. We wish you the best of luck in your technical talk and know that you're going to be mentoring a lot of people from far and wide. >> Thank you, my pleasure to be here. >> Absolutely, so I'm Lisa Martin. You've been watching theCUBE. We are live at the Women in Data Science Conference at Stanford University, but stick around, we'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: The Wynn resort in Las Vegas It's theCUBE. Covering .NEXT conference 2016 brought to you by Nutanix. Now here are your hosts, Dave Vellante and Stu Miniman. >> Welcome back everybody. Professor Deepak Malhotra here. He's with the Harvard Business school and author of Negotiating the Impossible: How to Break Deadlocks and Resolve Ugly Conflicts. Parenthetical without money or muscle end parenthetical. Deepak, welcome to theCUBE, great to see you. Thanks for having me here. Happy to be here. So what do you do in here? Well among the other things that I do with my time, I happen to be on the board of advisors for Nutanix. And I've been working with Nutanix for the last, a little over two years on various aspects of negotiation, deal making, training, etcetera. And so I attend a few of their conferences a few of the sessions. I talk at a few of their conferences as well. So that's what brings me here. >> So it's somewhat odd, right to have a negotiations expert come and talk to customers about negotiations. But I guess the angle would be if you're stuck in sort of a legacy world. You need to negotiate your way out is that. >> Well there's a couple of things going on there, right. So under one hand I think it shows a little bit about Nutanix's perspective. That it isn't a zero sum game. It's not we're going to train the Nutanix people so they can get an advantage over customers. I think the company really is focused on creating as much value as possible for the end user. And when you take that mind set it actually makes sense to be inclusive. And bring everybody in the ecosystem into the room. So it's not just, "Hey Professor Malhotra can you train our sales people?" It's you know we want to share your ideas with everybody. And I think that's really a good sign when a company is willing to do that. The second thing is as you just eluded to, a lot of the folks that are coming here and a lot of the people that are customers were thinking about moving in the direction of Nutanix. Or have bought into the idea. They still may need to sell it internally. They still may need to negotiate internally how do we change our organization or how do we move our organization from what its been doing to what it wants to be doing or it should be doing. And they're also many of the same skills can be useful. So why not educate them about some of the things they might not have thought about yet. >> So let's talk about your book a little bit. The premise. I guess I told you I haven't read it yet but I do have it. In the book you talked about a three thousand year old Treaty of Kadesh. And things that we can learn from three thousand years ago. Give us the basics and the premise. >> So this was. The books starts out with this story of the Treaty of Kadesh which I don't think is something that many business books start out talking about. Certainly, I hadn't seen it before I started researching it. And one of the interesting thing that happens is that there's a lesson embedded in the story of the Treaty of Kadesh that I think is as relevant today in negotiations of just about every kind in the business world and outside that, that's worth telling. And the basic story goes as follows. The Treaty of Kadesh is the most ancient peace treaty known to man kind. As far as we know it's as old a peace treaty as we have evidence of. And it was between the Egyptians and the Hittites. And these two parties were at war. And at some point they must of decided enough of this we need to put an end to this. There's too many cost internally and externally. Too many other threats. We need to find a way to resolve this kind of conflict. What often happens in these situations is that nobody wants to look weak. Nobody wants to be the one asking for peace because that might just embolden the other side. So what ends up happening is that somehow they overcome these hesitations. They reach this agreement. Now what's interesting is that we actually have access to both language's version of the treaty. So we have the Arcadian and the hieroglyphics. The hieroglyphics being the Egyptian version and the Arcadian being the one from the Hittites. And if you were to read both of these or if you were to first learn how to read these and then to read both of these. What you find is as you'd expect, they have a lot of the kinds of things that you would normally expect in a peace treaty. You know exchanging prisoners of war. Mutual assistance packs and things like this. And they're basically identical as they should be because they're the same peace treaty. But there is one difference. When you compare the two peace treaties the one difference that sort of stands out is that in the Egyptian version it says it's the Hittites who came asking for peace. And in the Hittite version it says it's the Egyptians who came asking for peace. And what it goes to show I think is that no matter how far back you go this need for every side to declare victory at the end of a negotiation at the end of a conflict. That need for every side to declare victory is as old as human beings themselves. When you understand that. I think it actually changes the way in which you try and negotiate these deals. How you think about what stands in the way of getting the deal done. Sometimes it's not the substance of the deal. You're already proposing something that's good enough. You're already have something on the table that's rich enough, valuable enough. They should say yes. But they might be other reasons they can't say yes. For example they might lose face. Or they may look bad. And when you recognize that I think you come at it a different way. >> Looking at your research. One of things you focus on is trust. And one of the challenges we have in technology is you know, people are entrenched with the way they do things. They're not likely to you know be first or go there. We've now got thousands of people using Nutanix but you know. How does Nutanix or others that are new get a proper seat at the table and be able to be part of a discussion that you know when you've got (mumbles) in there and the old ways of doing things. >> You know the way I see it. You have to get the economics right and you have to get the psychology right. The economics is you have to have a good product. It needs to be price appropriate. You need to be bringing value to the table. And be pricing based on that value proposition. So that's sort of basic business stuff. The problem is as I mentioned earlier. You may have the right product. You may have something that people, quote should be using. It is better than the alternative. But they might be these psychological hurdles that you need to get over. A prominent one being what you just eluded to which is when nobody else is doing it, nobody feels the urgency to do it. If you get the sense that you know there's not a mass of folks running after your product. They sort of feel like, well maybe that means something. Maybe it means it's not a big deal. Maybe it means it's not so urgent. Maybe it's not that good of a product. So the early hurdles that companies like these face are really big ones. You don't have a long list of customers that you can use to prove to other people that this is the way you should be going. There's always a risk that somebodies going to take a bet on this and if something goes wrong. It's sort of the old nobody lost their job buying IBM kind of mentality. And so as a negotiator and as a company that's starting out as an early stage company, especially in technology where you're doing something disruptive, you need to start thinking a little bit about how do we get them over that. How do we get them to start understanding that you know what. Here is a list of customers that are using it. And here's the testimonials, etcetera. You think about the pricing. The most common thing that happens when you walk into the room with a new disruptive technology is that the person on the other side says, "Are you crazy? "You're charging ten times what your competitor is charging. "You know you're sitting here telling me "to pay x. "If I do nothing I have to pay zero." Alright. "Nobody pays this kind of money for this kind of thing." That is a very common response sales people get when they are in an environment like this. And one of the things I advise people to do in that situation. Is to make sure they don't make the worst mistake a sales person can make in a moment where somebody says, "You're price is ten x what everybody else "is charging. "Nobody pays this much." The worst mistake a sales person can make is to apologize for the price being too high. Now they don't always do it by saying, "Oh my god I'm so sorry." But they seem apologetic. You know they're very quick to say, "Oh yeah I know it's high." >> "Let's see if we can do something." >> "I'm sure we can work something out. "But yeah you know I know it's a lot of money." The moment you go in that direction what you're basically doing is you're giving the other side a license to haggle with you. 'Cause what you're telling them is even you don't think the price is appropriate. A better response in a situation like this is for the sales person to say, "Listen I think the question you're asking me is, "how is it that despite our price being ten x "what some other people are charging, "we have a long list of people wanting to buy our product. "What kind of value must we be bringing to the table "for so many people wanting to buy this product? "Now I'm happy to talk about that value "because at the end of the day we all know nobody's "going to pay more for something than it's worth. "Nobody would do that, you're not going to do that. "So why don't we figure out what it's worth "and then you can make the right decision." And what you're doing there is you're shifting the conversion from price to value. You're shifting the frame of this conversation from how much am I having to pay and what's the cost to me to what is the value proposition. >> Stu's laughing. I mean your price is too high is the best sales objection ever. Right, you love to hear that as a sales person. Much better than your product sucks. (chuckles) Now the answer of this question is probably it depends. But when you advise your clients and your friends. When I go into a negotiation am I trying to get the best deal or am I trying to find common ground and get a win-win? >> Actually I don't think it depends. I think. (exhales loudly) Well I would. I would articulate the question slightly differently. Because in my experience it is possible to get a great deal and a great relationship. It's also possible to get neither. And so what you're trying to do is you're trying to optimize on both. What's interesting is that very often we assume it's a zero sum game enough. That the only way for me to get a good deal is for me to sacrifice the relationship in some way. That's not how it works in most sort of richer context, more complicated deal scenarios. Because what people evaluate when they walk away from the table isn't just did I get a quote, good economic deal. When people think back and say, "Do I want to work with this person again? "Do I like this person? "Did I get a good deal?" Often what they're thinking about is not so much of the substance of what they got. What's in the agreement. But the process they went through. For example. You know did the negotiation go as long as should of or did it drag on too long or end too abruptly? Was my voice heard? Did both sides move away from their opening positions? Did the person haggle with me on every little thing, even though they knew and I knew it's not a big deal to them and is a big deal to me? Those sort of process elements if you navigate the process more effectively you can often get to a point where you get the deal that you think is right for you and you get a relationship that both sides can walk away feeling good about. And from my perspective you know what does depend in, on it. It depends on the situation is what kind of feeling do you want them to have walking away. You don't always need to have them love you. But at the very least they should respect you. Right? And I think it's perfectly fair even in a very contentious negotiation to keep as one of your objectives. You know when the deal ends I want them to be able to walk away saying, "You know what, I maybe didn't agree with this person. "It didn't go exactly the way I wanted it to go. "But you know I can respect this person "for the way they handled the situation. "And if I were them I hope I would do it the same way." >> So I wonder. If I look at the society as a whole, it seems as if we kind of retreated to our sides and I find that lots of people aren't open for debate. They're intractable in what's going on. How do I get beyond that? >> How do we change society, is that the question? >> Stu: Yeah. >> How much time do we have? >> Am I wrong. (laughs) Is it only ten percent of the people that are intractable or are most people reasonable? >> So I think what happens is, there's a few interesting dynamics. Now I wouldn't have the precise numbers. What I can say is that it is certainly the case that even a minority of people being in those entrenched positions, they get a lot more of the media. They get a lot more of the attention. They tend to be louder, etcetera. And they can often drive our sense of what's actually happening. And it can drive the narrative. Now that doesn't mean there aren't real differences. Like strong differences. You know what's interesting is if you take people that are not on the extremes. You take the moderates. Sometimes the way in which we engage with people on the other side of the argument pushes them to be more extreme. See when we ourselves show up, thinking of ourselves as relatively moderate, enlightened people who have a set of point of view. But you know what I'm very open to other peoples perspective. But then we get into the conversation. And we end up challenging people in a way they don't find particularly useful. We start poking holes. We start making it's about a winning and a losing and a debate. And there's going to be at the end of the day points, score based on who wins the argument. Then people end up getting more and more entrenched. Even in ways that they otherwise wouldn't be. So the question is can we get to a point where at least those people on each side. And I find on any political issue I can find people on both sides that I think are trying to do the right thing and have perhaps limited information but they're trying to do the best they can with that information. They have good intentions and they're reasonably smart people. In my experience, you don't need two people one of whom is either evil, or crazy, or irrational to have conflict. You just need two people. You see good, smart, reasonably well-intentioned people getting into conflict all the time. Which then becomes the question of this book, which is how do we manage those situations? How do we get people to back away from these entrenched positions? How do we overcome deadlock that allows both sides to walk away feeling a little bit better about the situation? >> So examples are instructive. So let's talk about some great negotiators. Who are they? Let's start with sports. Scott Boras. You know you think of him as an agent. I mean grinding the teams, the general managers. Is he a good negotiator? >> So I don't follow many of the sports deal making and negotiations enough to be able to really elaborate on who would be a good negotiator in sports. But I can say this. That in a context where it's really just about things like price. Just about the money. And a sports agent often is, it's not really all about that but it is the most (mumbles). It is the most (mumbles) issue. You're going to go at it a certain way. And it would be similar to a negotiation in the business world where all you care about is price. You're buying or selling a house. You're buying or selling a car. And from my perspective there are people who are very good at haggling. There's people who can hold their cards to the chest and they can be aggressive when they need to be. And they can be persuasive in certain things. But when you look at negotiation as a whole. I think of haggling as a very, very thing slice of what negotiation is about. That's sort of the easy stuff. You may not be naturally good at it. But what it takes to be good at it is not so hard. We teach that on sort of day one of class. Day one of class is the price haggle. It's the you know there's two sides and you want opposite things. And how do you frame it in the right way and what kind of concession rate should you make or not make. How do you justify your proposal etcetera. We cover that on day one. And the problem is there is in our owner president program where I teach there's 15 more days left. In our MBA program there's like 27 more days left. And there the question becomes how do we get past just being a good haggler. Somebody who can just put fist to the table and say take it or leave it. And all that kind of stuff. Which will work in certain defined contexts but will not carry over to more important deals. >> You're right. That is a narrow context in sports because the agent has all the leverage of the players performed. How 'about Donald Trump? He's negotiating isn't he when he says Mexico's going to build the wall. He wrote the book, Art of the Deal. >> He did write that book. Yeah we co-authored that book actually. So is he negotiating when he says that. In the broader sense of the word negotiation which is basically how do we interact with other human beings who see things differently than we do. He absolutely is negotiating. If the question then becomes is he doing it effectively. My view would be that, that he is not. (chuckles) And I think if you actually were to look at the evidence and then stack it up. I think you would find that he's not a very effective negotiator. >> We don't have to go there. That's good. >> Deepak: That's okay I don't mind. >> We'll leave it there. But how 'about (mumbles), right. I mean you've had like an epic negotiation to bring those two. Is that an example? I mean even though it ended in tragedy on both sides is that an example of a successful negotiation? >> So it's an example of a, it is an example of a successful negotiation. And I think even more instructively it's an example of one of the biggest barriers in conflicts like this. The hardest part is often to bring your own side with you. And that is a challenge for leadership. It's not just in the bubble of negotiation. This is about leadership generally. To be able to have someone who can not only personally be willing to do the kinds of things that make the kinds of sacrifices but to be able to move a group of folks who for years, sometimes decades or centuries have been thinking differently. And to your point what often happens with these peace makers is you know the risk is you do one of these things and you're going to get killed. And usually you get killed by your own side. And exactly in the context you're talking about that's usually what happens. And so here what we see is not only an impressive set of events that led to negotiation and the negotiation itself but you see a certain amount of courage that leaders don't often enough show. And again some leaders aren't placed well. They don't have the support going in. Or they just don't have the ability to do it. But even those that do. The question is are you willing to expend the social and political capital necessary and put yourself on the line to be able to do something that you think is worth doing? >> I said I wasn't going to ask you but I am going to ask you 'cause your answer is so good. The Iran Deal. Good deal, not a good deal? You see to your point about getting killed by your own side. >> So I was not involved with the Iran deal. I do work with sometimes governments negotiating difficult conflicts and such. But I was not in any way involved with the Iran deal. What I can say is, based on the folks I've talk to leading up to the Iran deal and then after the Iran deal. It is my sense looking at what was accomplished that is actually a phenomenal deal for when it was done. Could a better deal have been done ten years earlier? Yes. One of the hardest things to negotiate against in the real world is the status quo. It's a lot easier to negotiate don't create center (mumbles) when there are none than it is to negotiate remove the center (mumbles) you have already created. So if you could go back in time which I have not met anybody yet who's able to do effectively it would be possible to get a better deal. Where things were last year and the year before I can say that pretty much everybody you talk to before the deal was announced on either side of the political spectrum, Republicans, Democrats, left, right, Hawkish, Dovish, you name it. Nobody would of expected a deal this good for the American side at the time. Now you may still not like it. You may be against any deal and that's okay. You can certainly have that perspective but if you're going to get a deal in this environment and what was being said leading up to this. I think both sides were pretty surprised and I would even say impressed. Until it came time to start talking about it publicly at which point of course you have to go back to your narrative. So you know again, I had nothing to do with it. But when you look at it, it surprised most people in terms of what it came out to be. >> So what are you working on? Next projects? Things that are exciting you these days. >> So I have sort of three areas where my attention is going. One is on ethnic conflict and armed conflict. As I was eluding to earlier I do some work with governments that are dealing with insurgency and conflict. And looking at what we know and what do we not know about resolving these kind of things. And how we can maybe push forward in that direction. So that's an area of advisory work but also research that I'm doing. Second area is I'm working with doctors. Thinking about how they can be more effective in prescribing a course of action to patients. How they can have more effective kind of conversations when a patient comes in and has a strong set of beliefs about what they should and shouldn't do. Or they're resistant to change. Or they're unwilling to do things. How can you be more effective in the time you spend with patients. And I do work on gun violence. And we've been looking at mass shootings. And we just had some research that got a lot of coverage unfortunately because of the tragedy that took place in Orlando not so long ago. Looking at whether mass shootings really have any impact on gun laws. And we find some interesting results there. So in a sense I'm sort of looking at insurgency and dealing with cancer patients and then gun violence. >> Interesting topics. >> Deepak: All of the darkest stuff we can find. >> It's a tragic but timely. And then there's another sequence there. Do gun laws have an impact on mass shooting. >> Deepak: And that's basically the next set of projects. >> Excellent. Well thank you very much. (mumbles) >> Deepak: It was great. >> Fantastic. >> Deepak: Absolutely. >> Alright keep right there everybody. Stu and I will be back with our next guest. We're live this is theCUBE SiliconANGLE's flagship production from .NEXT in Vegas. Be right back.

(upbeat music) >> Hey everyone. Welcome to theCUBE's special program series "Women of the Cloud", brought to you by AWS. I'm your host for the program, Lisa Martin. Very pleased to welcome back one of our alumni to this special series, Dr. Tendu Yogurtcu joins us, the CTO of Precisely. >> Lisa: Tendu, it's great to see you, it's been a while, but I'm glad that you're doing so well. >> Geez, it's so great seeing you too, and thank you for having me. >> My pleasure. I want the audience to understand a little bit about you. Talk to me a little bit about you, about your role and what are some of the great things that you're doing at Precisely. >> Of course. As CTO, my current role is driving technology vision and innovation, and also coming up with expansion strategies for Precisely's future growth. Precisely is the leader in data integrity. We deliver data with trust, with maximum accuracy, consistency, and also with context. And as a CTO, keeping an eye on what's coming in the business space, what's coming up with the emerging challenges is really key for me. Prior to becoming CTO, I was General Manager for the Syncsort big data business. And previously I had several engineering and R&D leadership roles. I also have a bit of academia experience. I served as a part-time faculty in computer science department in a university. And I am a person who is very tuned to giving back to my community. So I'm currently serving as a advisory board member in the same university. And I'm also serving as a advisory board member for a venture capital firm. And I take pride in being a dedicated advocate for STEM education and STEM education for women in particular, and girls in the underserved areas. >> You have such a great background. The breadth of your background, the experience that you have in the industry as well in academia is so impressive. I've known you a long time. I'd love the audience to get some recommendations from you. For those of the audience looking to grow and expand their careers in technology, what are some of the things that you that you've experienced that you would recommend people do? >> First, stay current. What is emerging today is going to be current very quickly. Especially now we are seeing more change and change at the increased speed than ever. So keeping an eye on on what's happening in the market if you want to be marketable. Now, some of the things that I will say, we have shortage of skills with data science, data engineering with security cyber security with cloud, right? We are here talking about cloud in particular. So there is a shortage of skills in the emerging technologies, AI, ML, there's a shortage of skills also in the retiring technologies. So we are in this like spectrum of skills shortage. So stay tuned to what's coming up. That's one. And on the second piece is that the quicker you tie what you are doing to the goals of the business, whether that's revenue growth whether that's customer retention or cost optimization you are more likely to grow in your career. You have to be able to articulate what you are doing and how that brings value to business to your boss, to your customers. So that becomes an important one. And then third one is giving back. Do something for the women in technology while being a woman in technology. Give back to your community whether that's community is gender based or whether it's your alumni, whether it's your community social community in your neighborhood or in your country or ethnicity. Give back to your community. I think that's becoming really important. >> I think so too. I think that paying it forward is so critical. I'm sure that you have a a long list of mentors and sponsors that have guided you along the way. Giving back to the community paying it forward I think is so important. For others who might be a few years behind us or even maybe have been in tech for the same amount of time that are looking to grow and expand their career having those mentors and sponsors of women who've been through the trenches is inspiring. It's so helpful. And it really is something that we need to do from a diversity perspective alone, right? >> Correct. Correct. And we have seen that, we have seen, for example Covid impact in women in particular. Diverse studies done by girls who quote on Accenture that showed that actually 50% of the women above age 35 were actually dropping out of the technology. And those numbers are scary. However, on the other side we have also seen incredible amount of technology innovation during that time with cloud adoption increasing with the ability to actually work remotely if you are even living in not so secure areas, for example that created more opportunities for women to come back to workforce as well. So we can turn the challenges to opportunities and watch out for those. I would say tipping points. >> I love that you bring up such a great point. There are so, so the, the data doesn't lie, right? The data shows that there's a significant amount of churn for women in technology. But to your point, there are so many opportunities. You mentioned a minute ago the skills gap. One of the things we talk about often on theCUBE and we're talking about cybersecurity which is obviously it's a global risk for companies in every industry, is that there's massive opportunity for people of, of any type to be able to grow their skills. So knowing that there's trend, but there's also so much opportunity for women in technology to climb the ladder is kind of exciting. I think. >> It is. It is exciting. >> Talk to me a little bit about, I would love for the audience to understand some of your hands-on examples where you've really been successful helping organizations navigate digital transformation and their entry and success with cloud computing. What are some of those success stories that you're really proud of? >> Let me think about, first of all what we are seeing is with the digital transformation in general, every single business every single vertical is becoming a technology company. Telecom companies are becoming a technology company. Financial services are becoming a technology company and manufacturing is becoming a technology company. So every business is becoming technology driven. And data is the key. Data is the enabler for every single business. So when we think about the challenges, one of the examples that I give a big challenge for our customers is I can't find the critical data, I can't access it. What are my critical data elements? Because I have so high volumes growing exponentially. What are the critical data elements that I should care and how do I access that? And we work at Precisely with 99 of Fortune 100. So we have two 12,000 customers in over a hundred countries which means we have customers whose businesses are purely built on cloud, clean slate. We also have businesses who have very complex set of data platforms. They have financial services, insurance, for example. They have critical transactional workloads still running on mainframes, IBM i servers, SAP systems. So one of the challenges that we have, and I work with key customers, is on how do we make data accessible for advanced analytics in the cloud? Cloud opens up a ton of open source tools, AI, ML stack lots of tools that actually the companies can leverage for that analytics in addition to elasticity in addition to easy to set up infrastructure. So how do we make sure the data can be actually available from these transactional systems, from mainframes at the speed that the business requires. So it's not just accessing data at the speed the business requires. One of our insurance customers they actually created this data marketplace on Amazon Cloud. And the, their challenge was to make sure they can bring the fresh data on a nightly basis initially and which became actually half an hour, every half an hour. So the speed of the business requirements have changed over time. We work with them very closely and also with the Amazon teams on enabling bringing data and workloads from the mainframes and executing in the cloud. So that's one example. Another big challenge that we see is, can I trust my data? And data integrity is more critical than ever. The quality of data, actually, according to HBR Harvard Business Review survey, 47% of every new record of data has at least one critical data error, 47%. So imagine, I was talking with the manufacturing organization couple of weeks ago and they were giving me an example. They have these three letter quotes for parts and different chemicals they use in the manufacturing. And the single letter error calls a shutdown of the whole manufacturing line. >> Wow. >> So that kind of challenge, how do I ensure that I can actually have completeness of data cleanness of data and consistency in that data? Moreover, govern that on a continuous basis becomes one of the use cases that we help customers. And in that particular case actually we help them put a data governance framework and data quality in their manufacturing line. It's becoming also a critical for, for example ESG, environment, social and governance, supply chain, monitoring the supply chain, and assessing ESG metrics. We see that again. And then the third one, last one. I will give an example because I think it's important. Hybrid cloud becoming critical. Because there's a purest view for new companies. However, facilitating flexible deployment models and facilitating cloud and hybrid cloud is also where we really we can help our customers. >> You brought up some amazingly critical points where it comes to data. You talked about, you know, a minute ago, every company in every industry has to become a technology company. You could also say every company across every industry has to become a data company. They have to become a software company. But to your point, and what it sounds like precisely is really helping organizations to do is access the data access data that has high integrity data that is free of errors. Obviously that's business critical. You talked about the high percentage of errors that caused manufacturing shutdown. Businesses can't, can't have that. That could potentially be life-ending for an organization. So it sounds like what you're talking about data accessibility, data integrity data governance and having that all in real time is table stakes for businesses. Whether it's your grocery store, your local coffee shop a manufacturing company, and e-commerce company. It's table stakes globally these days. >> It is, and you made a very good point actually, Lisa when you talked about the local coffee shop or the retail. One other interesting statistic is that almost 80% of every data has a location attribute. So when we talk about data integrity we no longer talk about just, and consistency of data. We also talk about context, right? When you are going, for example, to a new town you are probably getting some reminders about where your favorite coffee shop is or what telecom company has an office in that particular town. Or if you're an insurance company and a hurricane is hitting southern Florida. Then you want to know how the path of that hurricane is going to impact your customers and predict the claims before they happen. Also understand the propensity of the potential customers that you don't yet have. So location and context, those additional attributes of demographics, visitations are creating actually more confident business insights. >> Absolutely. And and as the consumer we're becoming more and more demanding. We want to be able to transact things so easily whether it's in our personal life at the grocery store, at that cafe, or in our business life. So those demands from the customer are also really influencing the direction that companies need to go. And it's actually, I think it's quite exciting that the amount of personalization the location data that you talk about that comes in there and really helps companies in every industry deliver these the cloud can, these amazing, unique personalized experiences that really drive business forward. We could talk about that all day long. I have no problem. But I want to get in our final minutes here, Tendu. What do you see as in your crystal ball as next for the cloud? How do you see your role as CTO evolving? >> Sure. For what we are seeing in the cloud I think we will start seeing more and more focus on sustainability. Sustainable technologies and governance. Obviously cloud migrations cloud modernizations are helping with that. And we, we are seeing many of our customers they started actually assessing the ESG supply chain and reporting on metrics whether it's the percentage of face or energy consumption. Also on the social metrics on diversity age distribution and as well as compliance piece. So sustainability governance I think that will become one area. Second, security, we talked about IT security and data privacy. I think we will see more and more investments around those. Cybersecurity in particular. And ethical data access and ethics is becoming center to everything we are doing as we have those personalized experiences and have more opportunities in the cloud. And the third one is continued automation with AI, ML and more focus on automation because cloud enables that at scale. And the work that we need to do is too time-intensive and too manual with the amount of data. Data is powering every business. So automation is going to be an increased focus how my role evolves with that. So I have this unique combination. I have been open to non-linear career paths throughout my growth. So I have an understanding of how to innovate and build products that solve real business problems. I also have an understanding of how to sell them build partnerships that combined with the the scale of growth, the hyper growth that we have absorbed in precisely 10 times growth within the last 10 years through a combination of organic innovation and acquisitions really requires the speed of change. So change, implementing change at scale as well as at speed. So taking those and bringing them to the next challenge is the evolution of my role. How do I bring those and tackle keep an eye on what's coming as a challenge in the industry and how they apply those skills that I have developed throughout my career to that next challenge and evolve with it, bring the innovation to data to cloud and the next challenge that we are going to see. >> There's so much on the horizon. It's, there are certainly challenges, you know within technology, but there's so much opportunity. You've done such a great job highlighting your career path the, the big impact that you're helping organizations make leveraging cloud and the opportunity that's there for the rest of us to really get in there get our hands dirty and solve problems. Tendu, I always love our conversations. It's been such a pleasure having you back, back on theCUBE. Thank you for joining us on this special program series today. >> Thank you Lisa. And also thanks to AWS for the opportunity. >> Absolutely. This is brought, brought to us by AWS. For Dr.Tendu, you are good to go. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE special program series Women of the Cloud. We thank you so much for watching and we'll see you soon. (upbeat music)

>>Good afternoon, everyone. And welcome back to the VMware Explorer. 2022 live from San Francisco. Lisa Martin, here with Dave. Valante good to be sitting next to you, sir. >>Yeah. Yeah. The big set >>And we're very excited to be welcoming buck. One of our esteemed alumni Sanja poin joins us, the CEO and president of cohesive. Nice to see >>You. Thank you, Lisa. Thank you, Dave. It's great to meet with you all the time and the new sort of setting here, but first >>Time, first time we've been in west, is that right? We've been in north. We've been in south. We've been in Las Vegas, right. But west, >>I mean, it's also good to be back with live shows with absolutely, you know, after sort of the two or three or hiatus. And it was a hard time for the whole world, but I'm kind of driving a little bit of adrenaline just being here with people. So >>You've also got some adrenaline, sorry, Dave. Yeah, you're good because you are new in the role at cohesive. You wrote a great blog that you are identified. The four reasons I came to cohesive. Tell the audience, just give 'em a little bit of a teaser about that. >>Yeah, I think you should all read it. You can Google and, and Google find that article. I talked about the people Mohi is a fantastic founder. You know, he was the, you know, the architect of the Google file system. And you know, one of the senior Google executives was on my board. Bill Corrin said one of the smartest engineers. He was the true father of hyperconverge infrastructure. A lot of the code of Nutanix. He wrote, I consider him really the father of that technology, which brought computer storage. And when he took that same idea of bringing compute to secondary storage, which is really what made the scale out architect unique. And we were at your super cloud event talking about that, Dave. Yeah. Right. So it's a people I really got to respect his smarts, his integrity and the genius, what he is done. I think the customer base, I called a couple of customers. One of them, a fortune 100 customer. I, I can't tell you who it was, but a very important customer. I've known him. He said, I haven't seen tech like this since VMware, 20 years ago, Amazon 10 years ago and now Ko. So that's special league. We're winning very much in the enterprise and that type of segment, the partners, you know, we have HPE, Cisco as investors. Amazon's an investors. So, you know, and then finally the opportunity, I think this whole area of data management and data security now with threats, like ransomware big opportunity. >>Okay. So when you were number two at VMware, you would come on and say, we'd love all our partners and of course, okay. So you know, a little bit about how to work with, with VMware. So, so when you now think about the partnership between cohesive and VMware, what are the things that you're gonna stress to your constituents on the VMware side to convince them that Hey, partnering with cohesive is gonna gonna drive more value for customers, you know, put your thumb on the scale a little bit. You know, you gotta, you gotta unfair advantage somewhat, but you should use it. So what's the narrative gonna be like? >>Yeah, I think listen with VMware and Amazon, that probably their top two partners, Dave, you know, like one of the first calls I made was to Raghu and he knew about this decision before. That's the level of trust I have in him. I even called Michael Dell, you know, before I made the decision, there's a little bit of overlap with Dell, but it's really small compared to the overlap, the potential with Dell hardware that we could compliment. And then I called four CEOs. I was, as I was making this decision, Andy Jassey at Amazon, he was formerly AWS CEO sat Nadela at Microsoft Thomas cor at Google and Arvin Christian, IBM to say, I'm thinking about this making decision. They are many of the mentors and friends to me. So I believe in an ecosystem. And you know, even Chuck Robbins, who the CEO of Cisco is an investor, I texted him and said, Hey, finally, we can be friends. >>It was harder to us to be friends with Cisco, given the overlap of NSX. So I have a big tent towards everybody in our ecosystem with VMware. I think the simple answer is there's no overlap okay. With, with the kind of the primary storage capabilities with VSAN. And by the same thing with Nutanix, we will be friends and, and extend that to be the best data protection solution. But given also what we could do with security, I think this is gonna go a lot further. And then it's all about meet the field. We have common partners. I think, you know, sort of the narrative I talked about in that blog is just like snowflake was replacing Terada and ServiceNow replace remedy and CrowdStrike, replacing Symantec, we're replacing legacy vendors. We are viewed as the modern solution cloud optimized for private and public cloud. We can help you and make VMware and vs a and VCF very relevant to that part of the data management and data security continuum, which I think could end VMware. And by the way, the same thing into the public cloud. So most of the places where we're being successful is clearly withs, but increasingly there's this discussion also about playing into the cloud. So I think both with VMware and Amazon, and of course the other partners in the hyperscaler service, storage, networking place and security, we have some big plans. >>How, how much do you see this? How do you see this multi-cloud narrative that we're hearing here from, from VMware evolving? How much of an opportunity is it? How are customers, you know, we heard about cloud chaos yesterday at the keynote, are customers, do they, do they admit that there's cloud chaos? Some probably do some probably don't how much of an opportunity is that for cohesive, >>It's tremendous opportunity. And I think that's why you need a Switzerland type player in this space to be successful. And you know, and you can't explicitly rule out the fact that the big guys get into this space, but I think it's, if you're gonna back up office 365 or what they call now, Microsoft 365 into AWS or Google workspace into Azure or Salesforce into one of those clouds, you need a Switzerland player. It's gonna be hard. And in many cases, if you're gonna back up data or you protect that data into AWS banks need a second copy of that either on premise or Azure. So it's very hard, even if they have their own native data protection for them to be dual cloud. So I think a multi-cloud story and the fact that there's at least three big vendors of cloud in, in the us, you know, one in China, if include Alibaba creates a Switzerland opportunity for us, that could be fairly big. >>And I think, you know, what we have to do is make sure while we'll be optimized, our preferred cloud is AWS. Our control plane runs there. We can't take an all in AWS stack with the control plane and the data planes at AWS to Walmart. So what I've explained to both Microsoft and AWS is that data plane will need to be multi-cloud. So I can go to an, a Walmart and say, I can back up your data into Azure if you choose to, but the control plane's still gonna be an AWS, same thing with Google. Maybe they have another account. That's very Google centric. So that's how we're gonna believe the, the control plane will be in AWS. We'll optimize it there, but the data plane will be multicloud. >>Yeah. And that's what Mo had explained at Supercloud. You know, and I talked to him, he really helped me hone in on the deployment models. Yes. Where, where, where the cohesive deployment model is instantiating that technology stack into each cloud region and each cloud, which gives you latency advantages and other advantages >>And single code based same platform. >>And then bringing it, tying it together with a unified, you know, interface. That was he, he was, he was key. In fact, I, I wrote about it recently and, and gave him and the other 29 >>Quite a bit in that session, he went deep with you. I >>Mean, with Mohi, when you get a guy who developed a Google file system, you know, who can technically say, okay, this is technically correct or no, Dave, your way off be. So I that's why I had to >>Go. I, I thought you did a great job in that interview because you probed him pretty deep. And I'm glad we could do that together with him next time. Well, maybe do that together here too, but it was really helpful. He's the, he's the, he's the key reason I'm here. >>So you say data management is ripe for disrupt disruption. Talk about that. You talked about this Switzerland effect. That sounds to me like a massive differentiator for cohesive. Why is data management right for disruption and why is cohesive the right partner to do it? >>Yeah, I think, listen, everyone in this sort of data protection backup from years ago have been saying the S Switzerland argument 18 years ago, I was a at Veras an executive there. We used the Switzerland argument, but what's changed is the cloud. And what's changed as a threat vector in security. That's, what's changed. And in that the proposition of a, a Switzerland player has just become more magnified because you didn't have a sales force or Workday service now then, but now you do, you didn't have multi-cloud. You had hardware vendors, you know, Dell, HPE sun at the time. IBM, it's now Lenovo. So that heterogeneity of, of on-premise service, storage, networking, HyperCloud, and, and the apps world has gotten more and more diverse. And I think you really need scale out architectures. Every one of the legacy players were not built with scale out architectures. >>If you take that fundamental notion of bringing compute to storage, you could almost paralyze. Imagine you could paralyze backup recovery and bring so much scale and speed that, and that's what Mo invented. So he took that idea of how he had invented and built Nutanix and applied that to secondary storage. So now everything gets faster and cheaper at scale. And that's a disruptive technology ally. What snowflake did to ator? I mean, the advantage of snowflake is when you took that same concept data, warehousing is not a new concept it's existed from since Ralph Kimball and bill Inman and the people who are fathers of data warehousing, they took that to Webscale. And in that came a disruptive force toter data, right on snowflake. And then of course now data bricks and big query, similar things. So we're doing the same thing. We just have to showcase the customers, which we do. And when large customers see that they're replacing the legacy solutions, I have a lot of respect for legacy solutions, but at some point in time of a solution was invented in 1995 or 2000, 2005. It's right. For change. >>So you use snowflake as an example, Frank SL doesn't like when I say playbook, cuz I says, Dave, I'm a situational CEO, no playbook, but there are patterns here. And one of the things he did is to your point go after, you know, Terra data with a better data warehouse, simplify scale, et cetera. And now he's, he's a constructing a Tam expansion strategy, same way he did at ServiceNow. And I see you guys following a similar pattern. Okay. You get your foot in the door. Let's face it. I mean, a lot of this started with, you know, just straight back. Okay, great. Now it's extending into data management now extending to multi-cloud that's like concentric circles in a Tam expansion strategy. How, how do you, as, as a CEO, that's part of your job is Tam expansion. >>So yeah, I think the way to think about the Tam is, I mean, people say it's 20, 30 billion, but let me tell you how you can piece it apart in size, Dave and Lisa number one, I estimate there's probably about 10 to 20 exabytes of data managed by these legacy players of on-prem stores that they back up to. Okay. So you add them all up in the market shares that they respectively are. And by the way, at the peak, the biggest of these companies got to 2 billion and then shrunk. That was Verto when I was there in 2004, 2 billion, every one of them is small and they stopped growing. You look at the IDC charts. Many of them are shrinking. We are the fastest growing in the last two years, but I estimate there's about 20 exabytes of data that collectively among the legacy players, that's either gonna stay on prem or move to the cloud. Okay. So the opportunity as they replace one of those legacy tools with us is first off to manage that 20 X by cheaper, faster with the Webscale glass offer the cloud guys, we could tip that into the cloud. Okay. >>But you can't stop there. >>Okay. No, we are not doing just backup recovery. We have a platform that can do files. We can do test dev analytics and now security. Okay. That data is potentially at a risk, not so much in the past, but for ransomware, right? How do we classify that? How do we govern that data? How do we run potential? You know, the same way you did antivirus some kind of XDR algorithms on the data to potentially not just catch the recovery process, which is after fact, but maybe the predictive act of before to know, Hey, there's somebody loitering around this data. So if I'm basically managing in the exabytes of data and I can proactively tell you what, this is, one CIO described this very simply to me a few weeks ago that I, and she said, I have 3000 applications, okay. I wanna be prepared for a black Swan event, except it's not a nine 11 planes getting the, the buildings. >>It is an extortion event. And I want to know when that happens, which of my 3000 apps I recover within one hour within one day within one week, no later than one month. Okay. And I don't wanna pay the bad guys at penny. That's what we do. So that's security discussions. We didn't have that discussion in 2004 when I was at another company, because we were talking about flood floods and earthquakes as a disaster recovery. Now you have a lot more security opportunity to be able to describe that. And that's a boardroom discussion. She needs to have that >>Digital risk. O O okay, go ahead please. I >>Was just gonna say, ransomware attack happens every what? One, every 11, 9, 11 seconds. >>And the dollar amount are going up, you know, dollar are going up. Yep. >>And, and when you pay the ransom, you don't always get your data back. So you that's not. >>And listen, there's always an ethical component. Should you do it or not do it? If you, if you don't do it and you're threatened, they may have left an Easter egg there. Listen, I, I feel very fortunate that I've been doing a lot in security, right? I mean, I built the business at, at, at VMware. We got it to over a billion I'm on the board of sneak. I've been doing security and then at SAP ran. So I know a lot about security. So what we do in security and the ecosystem that supports us in security, we will have a very carefully crafted stay tuned. Next three weeks months, you'll see us really rolling out a very kind of disciplined aspect, but we're not gonna pivot this company and become a cyber security company. Some others in our space have done that. I think that's not who we are. We are a data management and a data security company. We're not just a pure security company. We're doing both. And we do it well, intelligently, thoughtfully security is gonna be built into our platform, not voted on. Okay. And there'll be certain security things that we do organically. There's gonna be a lot that we do through partnerships, this >>Security market that's coming to you. You don't have to go claim that you're now a security vendor, right? The market very naturally saying, wow, a comprehensive security strategy has to incorporate a data protection strategy and a recovery, you know, and the things that we've talking about Mount ransomware, I want to ask you, you I've been around a long time, longer than you actually Sanjay. So, but you you've, you've seen a lot. You look, >>Thank you. That's all good. Oh, >>Shucks. So the market, I've never seen a market like this, right? I okay. After the.com crash, we said, and I know you can't talk about IPO. That's not what I'm talking about, but everything was bad after that. Right. 2008, 2000, everything was bad. I've never seen a market. That's half full, half empty, you know, snowflake beats and raises the stock, goes through the roof. Dev if it, if the area announced today, Mongo, DB, beat and Ray, that things getting crushed and, and after market never seen anything like this. It's so fed, driven and, and hard to protect. And, and of course, I know it's a marathon, you know, it's not a sprint, but have you ever seen anything like this? >>Listen, I walk worked through 18 quarters as COO of VMware. You've seen where I've seen public quarters there and you know, was very fortunate. Thanks to the team. I don't think I missed my numbers in 18 quarters except maybe once close. But we, it was, it's tough. Being a public company of the company is tough. I did that also at SAP. So the journey from 10 to 20 billion at SAP, the journey from six to 12 at VMware, that I was able to be fortunate. It's humbling because you, you really, you know, we used to have this, we do the earnings call and then we kind of ask ourselves, what, what do you think the stock price was gonna be a day and a half later? And we'd all take bets as to where this, I think you just basically, as a, as a sea level executive, you try to build a culture of beaten, raise, beaten, raise, beaten, raise, and you wanna set expectations in a way that you're not setting them up for failure. >>And you know, it's you, there's, Dave's a wonderful CEO as is Frank Salman. So it's hard for me to dissect. And sometimes the market are fickle on some small piece of it. But I think also the, when I, I encourage people say, take the long term view. When you take the long term view, you're not bothered about the ups and downs. If you're building a great company over the length of time, now it will be very clear over the arc of many, many quarters that you're business is trouble. If you're starting to see a decay in growth. And like, for example, when you start to see a growth, start to decay significantly by five, 10 percentage points, okay, there's something macro going on at this company. And that's what you won't avoid. But these, you know, ups and downs, my view is like, if you've got both Mongo D and snowflake are fantastic companies, they're CEOs of people I respect. They've actually kind of an, a, you know, advisor to us as a company, you knows moat very well. So we respect him, respect Frank, and you, there have been other quarters where Frank's, you know, the Snowflake's had a down result after that. So you build a long term and they are on the right side of history, snowflake, and both of them in terms of being a modern cloud relevant in the case of MongoDB, open source, two data technology, that's, you know, winning, I, I, we would like to be like them one day >>As, as the new CEO of cohesive, what are you most ask? What are you most anxious about and what are you most excited about? >>I think, listen, you know, you know, everything starts with the employee. You, I always believe I wrote my first memo to all employees. There was an article in Harvard business review called service profit chains that had a seminal impact on my leadership, which is when they studied companies who had been consistently profitable over a long period of time. They found that not just did those companies serve their customers well, but behind happy engaged customers were happy, engaged employees. So I always believe you start with the employee and you ensure that they're engaged, not just recruiting new employees. You know, I put on a tweet today, we're hiring reps and engineers. That's okay. But retaining. So I wanna start with ensuring that everybody, sometimes we have to make some unfortunate decisions with employees. We've, we've got a part company with, but if we can keep the best and brightest retained first, then of course, you know, recruiting machine, I'm trying to recruit the best and brightest to this company, people all over the place. >>I want to get them here. It's been, so I mean, heartwarming to come Tom world and just see people from all walks, kind of giving me hugs. I feel incredibly blessed. And then, you know, after employees, it's customers and partners, I feel like the tech is in really good hands. I don't have to worry about that. Cuz Mo it's in charge. He's got this thing. I can go to bed knowing that he's gonna keep innovating the future. Maybe in some of the companies I've worried about the tech innovation piece, but most doing a great job there. I can kind of leave that in his cap of hands, but employees, customers, partners, that's kind of what I'm focused on. None of them are for me, like a keep up at night, but there are are opportunities, right? And sometimes there's somebody you're trying to salvage to make sure or somebody you're trying to convince to join. >>But you know, customers, I love pursuing customers. I love the win. I hate to lose. So fortune 1000 global, 2000 companies, small companies, big companies, I wanna win every one of them. And it's not, it's not like, I mean, I know all these CEOs in my competitors. I texted him the day I joined and said, listen, I'll compete, honorably, whatever have you, but it's like Kobe and LeBron Kobe's passed away now. So maybe it's Steph Curry. LeBron, whoever your favorite athlete is you put your best on the court and you win. And that's how I am. That's nothing I've known no other gear than to put my best on the court and win, but do it honorably. It should not be the one that you're doing it. Unethically. You're doing it personally. You're not calling people's names. You're competing honorably. And when you win the team celebrates, it's not a victory for me. It's a victory for the team. >>I always think I'm glad that you brought up the employee experience and we're almost out of time, but I always think the employee experience and the customer experience are inextricably linked. This employees have to be empowered. They have to have the data that they need to do their job so that they can deliver to the customer. You can't do one without the other. >>That's so true. I mean, I, it's my belief. And I've talked also on this show and others about servant leadership. You know, one of my favorite poems is Brenda Naor. I went to bed in life. I dreamt that life was joy. I woke up and realized life was service. I acted in service was joy. So when you have a leadership model, which is it's about, I mean, there's lots of layers between me and the individual contributor, but I really care about that sales rep and the engineer. That's the leaf level of the organization. What can I get obstacle outta their way? I love skipping levels of going right. That sales rep let's go and crack this deal. You know? So you have that mindset. Yeah. I mean, you, you empower, you invert the pyramid and you realize the power is at the leaf level of an organization. >>So that's what I'm trying to do. It's a little easier to do it with 2000 people than I dunno, either 20, 20, 2000 people or 35,000 reported me at VMware. And I mean a similar number at SAP, which was even bigger, but you can shape this. Now we are, we're not a startup anymore. We're a midsize company. We'll see. Maybe along the way, there's an IP on the path. We'll wait for that. When it comes, it's a milestone. It's not the destination. So we do that and we are, we, I told people we are gonna build this green company. Cohesive is gonna be a great company like VMware one day, like Amazon. And there's always a day of early beginnings, but we have to work harder. This is kind of like the, you know, eight year old version of your kid, as opposed to the 18 year old version of the kid. And you gotta work a little harder. So I love it. Yeah. >>Good luck. Awesome. Thank you. Best of luck. Congratulations. On the role, it sounds like there's a tremendous amount of adrenaline, a momentum carrying you forward Sanjay. We always appreciate having you. Thank >>You for having in your show. >>Thank you. Our pleasure, Lisa. Thank you for Sanja poin and Dave ante. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube live from VMware Explorer, 2022, stick around our next guest. Join us momentarily.

>>Good afternoon, everyone. And welcome back to the Cube's day two coverage of VMware Explorer, 2022 live from San Francisco. Lisa Martin, here with Dave. Valante good to be sitting next to you, sir. >>Yeah, the big >>Set and we're very excited to be welcoming back. One of our esteemed alumni Sanja poin joins us, the CEO and president of cohesive. Nice to see >>You. Thank you, Lisa. Thank you, Dave. It's great to meet with you all the time and the new sort of setting here, but >>First time we've been in west, is that right? We've been in north. We've been in south. We've been in Las Vegas, right. But west >>Nice. Well, I mean, it's also good to be back with live shows with absolutely, you know, after sort of the two or three or high. And it was a hard time for the whole world, but I'm kind of driving a little bit of adrenaline just being here with people. So >>You've also got some adrenaline, sorry, Dave. Yeah, you're good because you are new in the role at cohesive. You wrote a great blog that you are identified. The four reasons I came to cohesive. Tell the audience, just give 'em a little bit of a teaser about that. >>Yeah, I think you should all read it. You can Google and, and Google find that article. I talked about the people Mohi is a fantastic founder. You know, he was the, you know, the architect of the Google file system. And you know, one of the senior Google executives who was on my board, bill Corrin said one of the smartest engineers. He was the true father of hyperconverge infrastructure. A lot of the code of Nutanix. He wrote, I consider him really the father of that technology, which brought computer storage. And when he took that same idea of bringing compute to secondary storage, which is really what made the scale out architect unique. And we were at your super cloud event talking about that, Dave. Yeah. Right. So it's a people I really got to respect his smarts, his integrity and the genius, what he is done. >>I think the customer base, I called a couple of customers. One of them, a fortune 100 customer. I, I can't tell you who it was, but a very important customer. I've known him. He said, I haven't seen tech like this since VMware, 20 years ago, Amazon 10 years ago. And now COER so that's special league. We're winning very much in the enterprise and that type of segment, the partners, you know, we have HPE, Cisco as investors, Amazon's an investors. So, you know, and then finally the opportunity, I think this whole area of data management and data security now with threats, like ransomware big opportunity. >>Sure. Okay. So when you were number two at VMware, you would come on and say, we'd love all our partners and of course, okay. So you know, a little bit about how to work with, with VMware. So, so when you now think about the partnership between cohesive and VMware, what are the things that you're gonna stress to your constituents on the VMware side to convince them that Hey, partnering with cohesive is gonna gonna drive more value for customers, you know, put your thumb on the scale a little bit. You know, you gotta, you gotta unfair advantage somewhat, but you should use it. So what's the narrative gonna be like? >>Yeah. I think listen with VMware and Amazon, that probably their top two partners, Dave, you know, like one of the first calls I made was to Raghu and he knew about this decision before. That's the level of trust I have in him. I even called Michael Dell, you know, before I made the decision, there's a little bit of an overlap with Dell, but it's really small compared to the overlap, the potential with Dell hardware that we could compliment. And then I called four CEOs. I was, as I was making this decision, Andy Jassy at Amazon, he was formerly AWS CEO sat Nadela at Microsoft Thomas cor at Google and Arvin Christian at IBM to say, I'm thinking about this making decision. They are many of the mentors and friends to me. So I believe in an ecosystem. And you know, even Chuck Robbins, who the CEO of Cisco is an investor, I texted him and said, Hey, finally, we can be friends. >>It was harder to us to be friends with Cisco, given the overlap of NEX. So I have a big tent towards everybody in our ecosystem with VMware. I think the simple answer is there's no overlap okay. With, with the kind of the primary storage capabilities with VSAN. And by the same thing with Nutanix, we will be friends and, and extend that to be the best data protection solution. But given also what we could do with security, I think this is gonna go a lot further. And then it's all about meet in the field. We have common partners. I think, you know, sort of the narrative I talked about in that blog is just like snowflake was replacing Terada and ServiceNow replace remedy and CrowdStrike, replacing Symantec, we're replacing legacy vendors. We are viewed as the modern solution cloud optimized for private and public cloud. We can help you and make VMware and VSAN and VCF very relevant to that part of the data management and data security continuum, which I think could enhance VMware. And by the way, the same thing into the public cloud. So most of the places where we're being successful is clearly withs, but increasingly there's this discussion also about playing into the cloud. So I think both with VMware and Amazon, and of course the other partners in the hyperscaler service, storage, networking place and security, we have some big plans. >>How, how much do you see this? How do you see this multi-cloud narrative that we're hearing here from, from VMware evolving? How much of an opportunity is it? How are customers, you know, we heard about cloud chaos yesterday at the keynote, are customers, do they, do they admit that there's cloud chaos? Some probably do some probably don't how much of an opportunity is that for cohesive, >>It's tremendous opportunity. And I think that's why you need a Switzerland type player in this space to be successful. And you know, and you can't explicitly rule out the fact that the big guys get into this space, but I think it's, if you're gonna back up office 365 or what they call now, Microsoft 365 into AWS or Google workspace into Azure or Salesforce into one of those clouds, you need a Switzerland player it's gonna be out. And in many cases, if you're gonna back up data or you protect that data into AWS banks need a second copy of that either on premise or Azure. So it's very hard, even if they have their own native data protection for them to be dual cloud. So I think a multi-cloud story and the fact that there's at least three big vendors of cloud in, in the us, you know, one in China, if include Alibaba creates a Switzerland opportunity for us, that could be fairly big. >>And I think, you know, what we have to do is make sure while we'll be optimized, our preferred cloud is AWS. Our control plane runs there. We can't take an all in AWS stack with the control plane and the data planes at AWS to Walmart. So what I've explained to both Microsoft and AWS is that data plane will need to be multicloud. So I can go to an a Walmart and say, I can back up your data into Azure if you choose to, but the control, plane's still gonna be an AWS, same thing with Google. Maybe they have another account. That's very Google centric. So that's how we're gonna play the, the control plane will be in AWS. We'll optimize it there, but the data plane will be multi-cloud. >>Yeah. And that's what Mo had explained at Supercloud. You know, and I talked to, he really helped me hone in on the deployment models. Yes. Where, where, where the cohesive deployment model is instantiating that technology stack into each cloud region and each cloud, which gives you latency advantages and other advantages >>And single code based same platform, >>And then bringing it, tying it together with a unified, you know, interface. That was he, he was, he was key. In fact, I, I wrote about it recently and, and gave him and the other 20, >>Quite a bit in that session. Yeah. So he went deep with you. I >>Mean, with Mohi, when you get a guy who developed a Google file system, you know, who can technically say, okay, this is technically correct or no, Dave, your way off be so I that's why I had to >>Go. I, I thought you did a great job in that interview because you probed him pretty deep and I'm glad we could do that together with him next time. Well, maybe do that together here too, but it was really helpful. He's the, he's the, he's the key reason I'm here. >>So you say data management is ripe for disrupt disruption. Talk about that. You talked about this Switzerland effect. That sounds to me like a massive differentiator for cohesive. Why is data management right. For disruption and why is cohesive the right partner to do it? >>Yeah, I think, listen, everyone in this sort of data protection backup from years ago have been saying the S Switzerland argument 18 years ago, I was a at Veras an executive there. We used the Switzerland argument, but what's changed is the cloud. And what's changed as a threat vector in security. That's, what's changed. And in that the proposition of a, a Switzerland player has just become more magnified because you didn't have a sales force or Workday service now then, but now you do, you didn't have multi-cloud. You had hardware vendors, you know, Dell, HPE sun at the time. IBM, it's now Lenovo. So that heterogeneity of, of on-premise service, storage, networking, HyperCloud, and, and the apps world has gotten more and more diverse. And I think you really need scale out architectures. Every one of the legacy players were not built with scale out architectures. >>If you take that fundamental notion of bringing compute to storage, you could almost paralyze. Imagine you could paralyze backup recovery and bring so much scale and speed that, and that's what Mo invented. So he took that idea of how he had invented and built Nutanix and applied that to secondary storage. So now everything gets faster and cheaper at scale. And that's a disruptive technology ally. What snowflake did to ator? I mean, the advantage of snowflake is when you took that same concept data, warehousing is not a new concept it's existed from since Ralph Kimble and bill Inman and the people who are fathers of data warehousing, they took that to Webscale. And in that came a disruptive force toter data, right? And snowflake. And then of course now data bricks and big query, similar things. So we're doing the same thing. We just have to showcase the customers, which we do. And when large customers see that they're replacing the legacy solutions, I have a lot of respect for legacy solutions, but at some point in time of a solution was invented in 1995 or 2000, 2005. It's right. For change. >>So you use snowflake as an example, Frank sluman doesn't like when I say playbook, cuz I says, Dave, I'm a situational. See you no playbook, but there are patterns here. And one of the things he did is to your point go after, you know, Terra data with a better data warehouse, simplify scale, et cetera. And now he's, he's a constructing a Tam expansion strategy, same way he did at ServiceNow. And I, you guys following a similar pattern. Okay. You get your foot in the door. Let's face it. I mean, a lot of this started with, you know, just straight back. Okay, great. Now it's extending into data management now extending to multi-cloud that's like concentric circles in a Tam expansion strategy. How, how do as, as a CEO, that's part of your job is Tam expansion. >>So yeah, I think the way to think about the Tam is, I mean, people say it's 20, 30 billion, but let me tell you how you can piece it apart in size, Dave and Lisa number one, I estimate there's probably about 10 to 20 exabytes of data managed by these legacy players of on-prem stores that they back up to. Okay. So you add them all up in the market shares that they respectively are. And by the way, at the peak, the biggest of these companies got to 2 billion and then shrunk. That was Verto when I was there in 2004, 2 billion, every one of them is small and they stopped growing. You look at the IDC charts. Many of them are shrinking. We are the fastest growing in the last two years, but I estimate there's about 20 exabytes of data that collectively among the legacy players, that's either gonna stay on prem or move to the cloud. Okay. So the opportunity as they replace one of those legacy tools with us is first off to manage that 20 X bike cheaper, faster with the Webscale, a glass or for the cloud guys, we could tip that into the cloud. Okay. >>But you can't stop there. >>Okay. No, we are not doing just back recovery. Right. We have a platform that can do files. We can do test dev analytics and now security. Okay. That data is potentially at a risk, not so much in the past, but for ransomware, right? How do we classify that? How do we govern that data? How do we run potential? You know, the same way you did antivirus some kind of XDR algorithms on the data to potentially not just catch the recovery process, which is after fact, but maybe the predictive act of before to know, Hey, there's somebody loitering around this data. So if I'm basically managing in the exabytes of data and I can proactively tell you what, this is, one CIO described this very simply to me a few weeks ago that I, and she said, I have 3000 applications, okay. I wanna be prepared for a black Swan event, except it's not a nine 11 planes hitting the, the buildings. >>It is an extortion event. And I want to know when that happens, which of my 3000 apps I recover within one hour within one day within one week, no lay than one month. Okay. And I don't wanna pay the bad guys of penny. That's what we do. So that's security discussions. We didn't have that discussion in 2004 when I was at another company, because we were talking about flood floods and earthquakes as a disaster recovery. Now you have a lot more security opportunity to be able to describe that. And that's a boardroom discussion. She needs to have that >>Digital risk. O O okay, go ahead please. I >>Was just gonna say, ransomware attack happens every what? One, every 11, 9, 11 seconds. >>And the dollar amount are going up, you know, dollar of what? >>Yep. And, and when you pay the ransom, you don't always get your data back. So you that's >>Not. And listen, there's always an ethical component. Should you do it or not do it? If you, if you don't do it and you're threatened, they may have left an Easter egg there. Listen, I, I feel very fortunate that I've been doing a lot in security, right? I mean, I built the business at, at, at VMware. We got it to over a billion I'm on the board of sneak. I've been doing security and then at SAP ran. So I know a lot about security. So what we do in security and the ecosystem that supports us in security, we will have a very carefully crafted stay tuned. Next three weeks months, you'll see us really rolling out a very kind of disciplined aspect, but we're not gonna pivot this company and become a cyber security company. Some others in our space have done that. I think that's not who we are. We are a data management and a data security company. We're not just a pure security company. We're doing both. And we do it well, intelligently, thoughtfully security is gonna be built into our platform, not bolted on, okay. And there'll be certain security things that we do organically. There's gonna be a lot that we do through partnerships, >>This security market that's coming to you. You don't have to go claim that you're now a security vendor, right? The market very naturally saying, wow, a comprehensive security strategy has to incorporate a data protection strategy and a recovery, you know, and the things we've talking about, Mount ransomware, I want to ask you, you know, I've been around a long time, longer than you actually Sanjay. So, but you you've, you've seen a lot. You look incredibly, >>Thank you. That's all good. Oh, >>Shocks. So the market, I've never seen a market like this, right? I okay. After the.com crash, we said, and I know you can't talk about IPO. That's not what I'm talking about, but everything was bad after that. Right. 2008, 2000, everything was bad. I've never seen a market. That's half full, half empty, you know, snowflake beats and raises the stock, goes through the roof. Dev if it, the area announced today, Mongo, DB, beat and Ray, that things getting crushed. And, and after market never seen anything like this. It's so fed, driven and, and hard to protect. And, and of course, I know it's a marathon, you know, it's not a sprint, but have you ever seen anything like this? >>Listen, I walk worked through 18 quarters as COO of VMware. You seen, I've seen public quarters there and you know, was very fortunate. Thanks to the team. I don't think I missed my numbers in 18 quarters except maybe once close. But we, it was, it's tough. Being a public company. Officer of the company is tough. I did that also at SAP. So the journey from 10 to 20 billion at SAP, the journey from six to 12 at VMware, that I was able to be fortunate. It's humbling because you, you really, you know, we used to have this, we do the earnings call and then we kind of ask ourselves, what, what do you think the stock price was gonna be a day and a half later? And we'd all take bets as to wear this. I think you just basically, as a, as a sea level executive, you try to build a culture of beaten, raise, beaten, raise, beaten, raise, and you wanna set expectations in a way that you're not setting them up for failure. >>And you know, it's you, there's, Dave's a wonderful CEO as is Frank movement. So it's hard for me to dissect. And sometimes the market are fickle on some small piece of it. But I think also the, when I, I encourage people say, take the long term view. When you take the long term view, you're not bothered about the ups and downs. If you're building a great company over the length of time, now it will be very clear over the arc of many, many quarters that you're business is trouble. If you're starting to see a decay in growth. And like, for example, when you start to see a growth, start to decay significantly by five, 10 percentage points, okay, there's something macro going on at this company. And that's what you won't avoid. But these, you know, ups and downs, my view is like, if you've got both Mongo, DIA and snowflake are fantastic companies, they're CEOs of people I respect. They've actually a kind of an, a, you know, advisor to us as a company, you knows mot very well. So we respect him, respect Frank, and you, there have been other quarters where Frank's, you know, the snowflakes had a down result after that. So you build a long term and they are on the right side of history, snowflake, and both of them in terms of being a modern cloud relevant in the case of MongoDB open source to data technology, that's, you know, winning, I, we would like to be like them one day >>As, as the new CEO of cohesive, what are you most, what are you most anxious about? And what are you most excited about? >>I think, listen, you know, you know, everything starts with the employee. You, I always believe I wrote my first memo to all employees. There was an article in Harvard business review called service profit chains that had a seminal impact on my leadership, which is when they studied companies who had been consistently profitable over a long period of time. They found that not just did those companies serve their customers well, but behind happy engaged customers were happy, engaged employees. So I always believe you start with the employee and you ensure that they're engaged, not just recruiting new employees. You know, I put on a tweet today, we're hiring reps and engineers. That's okay. But retaining. So I wanna start with ensuring that everybody, sometimes we have to make some unfortunate decisions with employees. We've, we've got a part company with, but if we can keep the best and brightest retained first, then of course, you know, recruiting machine, I'm trying to recruit the best and brightest to this company, people all over the place. >>I want to get them here. It's been, so I mean, heartwarming to come to world and just see people from all walks, kind of giving me hugs. I feel incredibly blessed. And then, you know, after employees, it's customers and partners, I feel like the tech is in really good hands. I don't have to worry about that. Cuz Mo it's in charge. He's got this thing. I can go to bed knowing that he's gonna keep innovating the future. Maybe in some of the companies, I would worried about the tech innovation piece, but most doing a great job there. I can kind of leave that in his cap of hands, but employees, customers, partners, that's kind of what I'm focused on. None of them are for me, like a keep up at night, but they're are opportunities, right? And sometimes there's somebody you're trying to salvage to make sure or somebody you're trying to convince to join. >>But you know, customers, I love pursuing customers. I love the win. I hate to lose. So fortune 1000 global, 2000 companies, small companies, big companies, I wanna win every one of 'em and it's not, it's not like, I mean, I know all these CEOs in my competitors. I texted him the day I joined and said, listen, I'll compete, honorably, whatever have you, but it's like Kobe and LeBron Kobe's passed away now. So maybe it's step Curry. LeBron, whoever your favorite athlete is you put your best on the court and you win. And that's how I am. That's nothing I've known no other gear than to put my best on the court and win, but do it honorably. It should not be the one that you're doing it. Unethically. You're doing it personally. You're not calling people's names. You're competing honorably. And when you win the team celebrates, it's not a victory for me, it's a victory for the team. >>I always think I'm glad that you brought out the employee experience and we're almost out of time, but I always think the employee experience and the customer experience are inextricably linked. This employees have to be empowered. They have to have the data that they need to do their job so that they can deliver to the customer. You can't do one without the other. >>That's so true. I mean, I, it's my belief. And I've talked also on this show and others about servant leadership. You know, one of my favorite poems is Brenda NA Tago. I went to bed in life. I dreamt that life was joy. I woke up and realized life was service. I acted in service was joy. So when you have a leadership model, which is it's about, I mean, there's lots of layers between me and the individual contributor, but I really care about that sales rep and the engineer. That's the leaf level of the organization. What can I get obstacle outta their way? I love skipping levels and going write that sales rep let's go and crack this deal. You know? So you have that mindset. Yeah. I mean, you, you empower, you invert the pyramid and you realize the power is at the leaf level of an organization. >>So that's what I'm trying to do. It's a little easier to do it with 2000 people than I dunno, either 20, 20, 2000 people or 35,000 reported me at VMware. And I mean a similar number at SAP, which was even bigger, but you can shape this. Now we are, we're not a startup anymore. We're a mid-size company. We'll see. Maybe along the way, there's an IP on the path. We'll wait for that. When it comes, it's a milestone. It's not the destination. So we do that and we are, we, I told people we are gonna build this green company. Cohesive is gonna be a great company like VMware one day, like Amazon. And there's always a day of early beginnings, but we have to work harder. This is kind of like the, you know, eight year old version of your kid, as opposed to the 18 year old version of the kid. And you gotta work a little harder. So I love it. Yeah. >>Good luck. Awesome. Thank you too. Best of luck. Congratulations on the role, it sounds like there's a tremendous amount of adrenaline, a momentum carrying you forward Sanja. We always appreciate having thank >>You for having in your show. >>Thank you. Our pleasure, Lisa. Thank you for Sanjay poin and Dave ante. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube live from VMware Explorer, 2022, stick around our next guest. Join us momentarily.

(upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome to "theCUBE" conversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, host of "theCUBE," got a great security conversation, Ed Casper who's the founder and CEO of Cloud Storage Security, the great Cloud background, Cloud security, Cloud storage. Welcome to the "theCUBE Conversation," Ed. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you very much for having me. >> I got Lafomo on that background. You got the nice look there. Let's get into the storage blind spot conversation around Cloud Security. Obviously, reinforced has came up a ton, you heard a lot about encryption, automated reasoning but still ransomware was still hot. All these things are continuing to be issues on security but they're all brought on data and storage, right? So this is a big part of it. Tell us a little bit about how you guys came about the origination story. What is the company all about? >> Sure, so, we're a pandemic story. We started in February right before the pandemic really hit and we've survived and thrived because it is such a critical thing. If you look at the growth that's happening in storage right now, we saw this at reinforced. We saw even a recent AWS Storage Day. Their S3, in particular, houses over 200 trillion objects. If you look just 10 years ago, in 2012, Amazon touted how they were housing one trillion objects, so in a 10 year period, it's grown to 200 trillion and really most of that has happened in the last three or four years, so the pandemic and the shift in the ability and the technologies to process data better has really driven the need and driven the Cloud growth. >> I want to get into some of the issues around storage. Obviously, the trend on S3, look at what they've done. I mean, I saw my land at storage today. We've interviewed her. She's amazing. Just the EC2 and S3 the core pistons of AWS, obviously, the silicons getting better, the IaaS layers just getting so much more innovation. You got more performance abstraction layers at the past is emerging Cloud operations on premise now with hybrid is becoming a steady state and if you look at all the action, it's all this hyper-converged kind of conversations but it's not hyper-converged in a box, it's Cloud Storage, so there's a lot of activity around storage in the Cloud. Why is that? >> Well, because it's that companies are defined by their data and, if a company's data is growing, the company itself is growing. If it's not growing, they are stagnant and in trouble, and so, what's been happening now and you see it with the move to Cloud especially over the on-prem storage sources is people are starting to put more data to work and they're figuring out how to get the value out of it. Recent analysts made a statement that if the Fortune 1000 could just share and expose 10% more of their data, they'd have net revenue increases of 65 million. So it's just the ability to put that data to work and it's so much more capable in the Cloud than it has been on-prem to this point. >> It's interesting data portability is being discussed, data access, who gets access, do you move compute to the data? Do you move data around? And all these conversations are kind of around access and security. It's one of the big vulnerabilities around data whether it's an S3 bucket that's an manual configuration error, or if it's a tool that needs credentials. I mean, how do you manage all this stuff? This is really where a rethink kind of comes around so, can you share how you guys are surviving and thriving in that kind of crazy world that we're in? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, data has been the critical piece and moving to the Cloud has really been this notion of how do I protect my access into the Cloud? How do I protect who's got it? How do I think about the networking aspects? My east west traffic after I've blocked them from coming in but no one's thinking about the data itself and ultimately, you want to make that data very safe for the consumers of the data. They have an expectation and almost a demand that the data that they consume is safe and so, companies are starting to have to think about that. They haven't thought about it. It has been a blind spot, you mentioned that before. In regards to, I am protecting my management plane, we use posture management tools. We use automated services. If you're not automating, then you're struggling in the Cloud. But when it comes to the data, everyone thinks, "Oh, I've blocked access. I've used firewalls. I've used policies on the data," but they don't think about the data itself. It is that packet that you talked about that moves around to all the different consumers and the workflows and if you're not ensuring that that data is safe, then, you're in big trouble and we've seen it over and over again. >> I mean, it's definitely a hot category and it's changing a lot, so I love this conversation because it's a primary one, primary and secondary cover data cotton storage. It's kind of good joke there, but all kidding aside, it's a hard, you got data lineage tracing is a big issue right now. We're seeing companies come out there and kind of superability tangent there. The focus on this is huge. I'm curious, what was the origination story? What got you into the business? Was it like, were you having a problem with this? Did you see an opportunity? What was the focus when the company was founded? >> It's definitely to solve the problems that customers are facing. What's been very interesting is that they're out there needing this. They're needing to ensure their data is safe. As the whole story goes, they're putting it to work more, we're seeing this. I thought it was a really interesting series, one of your last series about data as code and you saw all the different technologies that are processing and managing that data and companies are leveraging today but still, once that data is ready and it's consumed by someone, it's causing real havoc if it's not either protected from being exposed or safe to use and consume and so that's been the biggest thing. So we saw a niche. We started with this notion of Cloud Storage being object storage, and there was nothing there protecting that. Amazon has the notion of access and that is how they protect the data today but not the packets themselves, not the underlying data and so, we created the solution to say, "Okay, we're going to ensure that that data is clean. We're also going to ensure that you have awareness of what that data is, the types of files you have out in the Cloud, wherever they may be, especially as they drift outside of the normal platforms that you're used to seeing that data in. >> It's interesting that people were storing data lakes. Oh yeah, just store a womp we might need and then became a data swamp. That's kind of like go back 67 years ago. That was the conversation. Now, the conversation is I need data. It's got to be clean. It's got to feed the machine learning. This is going to be a critical aspect of the business model for the developers who are building the apps, hence, the data has code reference which we've focused on but then you say, "Okay, great. Does this increase our surface area for potential hackers?" So there's all kinds of things that kind of open up, we start doing cool, innovative, things like that so, what are some of the areas that you see that your tech solves around some of the blind spots or with object store, the things that people are overlooking? What are some of the core things that you guys are seeing that you're solving? >> So, it's a couple of things, right now, the still the biggest thing you see in the news is configuration issues where people are losing their data or accidentally opening up to rights. That's the worst case scenario. Reads are a bad thing too but if you open up rights and we saw this with a major API vendor in the last couple of years they accidentally opened rights to their buckets. Hackers found it immediately and put malicious code into their APIs that were then downloaded and consumed by many, many of their customers so, it is happening out there. So the notion of ensuring configuration is good and proper, ensuring that data has not been augmented inappropriately and that it is safe for consumption is where we started and, we created a lightweight, highly scalable solution. At this point, we've scanned billions of files for customers and petabytes of data and we're seeing that it's such a critical piece to that to make sure that that data's safe. The big thing and you brought this up as well is the big thing is they're getting data from so many different sources now. It's not just data that they generate. You see one centralized company taking in from numerous sources, consolidating it, creating new value on top of it, and then releasing that and the question is, do you trust those sources or not? And even if you do, they may not be safe. >> We had an event around super Clouds is a topic we brought up to get bring the attention to the complexity of hybrid which is on premise, which is essentially Cloud operations. And the successful people that are doing things in the software side are essentially abstracting up the benefits of the infrastructures of service from HN AWS, right, which is great. Then they innovate on top so they have to abstract that storage is a key component of where we see the innovations going. How do you see your tech that kind of connecting with that trend that's coming which is everyone wants infrastructures code. I mean, that's not new. I mean, that's the goal and it's getting better every day but DevOps, the developers are driving the operations and security teams to like stay pace, so policy seeing a lot of policy seeing some cool things going on that's abstracting up from say storage and compute but then those are being put to use as well, so you've got this new wave coming around the corner. What's your reaction to that? What's your vision on that? How do you see that evolving? >> I think it's great, actually. I think that the biggest problem that you have to do as someone who is helping them with that process is make sure you don't slow it down. So, just like Cloud at scale, you must automate, you must provide different mechanisms to fit into workflows that allow them to do it just how they want to do it and don't slow them down. Don't hold them back and so, we've come up with different measures to provide and pretty much a fit for any workflow that any customer has come so far with. We do data this way. I want you to plug in right here. Can you do that? And so it's really about being able to plug in where you need to be, and don't slow 'em down. That's what we found so far. >> Oh yeah, I mean that exactly, you don't want to solve complexity with more complexity. That's the killer problem right now so take me through the use case. Can you just walk me through how you guys engage with customers? How they consume your service? How they deploy it? You got some deployment scenarios. Can you talk about how you guys fit in and what's different about what you guys do? >> Sure, so, we're what we're seeing is and I'll go back to this data coming from numerous sources. We see different agencies, different enterprises taking data in and maybe their solution is intelligence on top of data, so they're taking these data sets in whether it's topographical information or whether it's in investing type information. Then they process that and they scan it and they distribute it out to others. So, we see that happening as a big common piece through data ingestion pipelines, that's where these folks are getting most of their data. The other is where is the data itself, the document or the document set, the actual critical piece that gets moved around and we see that in pharmaceutical studies, we see it in mortgage industry and FinTech and healthcare and so, anywhere that, let's just take a very simple example, I have to apply for insurance. I'm going to upload my Social Security information. I'm going to upload a driver's license, whatever it happens to be. I want to one know which of my information is personally identifiable, so I want to be able to classify that data but because you're trusting or because you're taking data from untrusted sources, then you have to consider whether or not it's safe for you to use as your own folks and then also for the downstream users as well. >> It's interesting, in the security world, we hear zero trust and then we hear supply chain, software supply chains. We get to trust everybody, so you got kind of two things going on. You got the hardware kind of like all the infrastructure guys saying, "Don't trust anything 'cause we have a zero trust model," but as you start getting into the software side, it's like trust is critical like containers and Cloud native services, trust is critical. You guys are kind of on that balance where you're saying, "Hey, I want data to come in. We're going to look at it. We're going to make sure it's clean." That's the value here. Is that what I'm hearing you, you're taking it and you're saying, "Okay, we'll ingest it and during the ingestion process, we'll classify it. We'll do some things to it with our tech and put it in a position to be used properly." Is that right? >> That's exactly right. That's a great summary, but ultimately, if you're taking data in, you want to ensure it's safe for everyone else to use and there are a few ways to do it. Safety doesn't just mean whether it's clean or not. Is there malicious content or not? It means that you have complete coverage and control and awareness over all of your data and so, I know where it came from. I know whether it's clean and I know what kind of data is inside of it and we don't see, we see that the interesting aspects are we see that the cleanliness factor is so critical in the workflow, but we see the classification expand outside of that because if your data drifts outside of what your standard workflow was, that's when you have concerns, why is PII information over here? And that's what you have to stay on top of, just like AWS is control plane. You have to manage it all. You have to make sure you know what services have all of a sudden been exposed publicly or not, or maybe something's been taken over or not and you control that. You have to do that with your data as well. >> So how do you guys fit into the security posture? Say it a large company that might want to implement this right away. Sounds like it's right in line with what developers want and what people want. It's easy to implement from what I see. It's about 10, 15, 20 minutes to get up and running. It's not hard. It's not a heavy lift to get in. How do you guys fit in once you get operationalized when you're successful? >> It's a lightweight, highly scalable serverless solution, it's built on Fargate containers and it goes in very easily and then, we offer either native integrations through S3 directly, or we offer APIs and the APIs are what a lot of our customers who want inline realtime scanning leverage and we also are looking at offering the actual proxy aspects. So those folks who use the S3 APIs that our native AWS, puts and gets. We can actually leverage our put and get as an endpoint and when they retrieve the file or place the file in, we'll scan it on access as well, so, it's not just a one time data arrest. It can be a data in motion as you're retrieving the information as well >> We were talking with our friends the other day and we're talking about companies like Datadog. This is the model people want, they want to come in and developers are driving a lot of the usage and operational practice so I have to ask you, this fits kind of right in there but also, you also have the corporate governance policy police that want to make sure that things are covered so, how do you balance that? Because that's an important part of this as well. >> Yeah, we're really flexible for the different ways they want to consume and and interact with it. But then also, that is such a critical piece. So many of our customers, we probably have a 50/50 breakdown of those inside the US versus those outside the US and so, you have those in California with their information protection act. You have GDPR in Europe and you have Asia having their own policies as well and the way we solve for that is we scan close to the data and we scan in the customer's account, so we don't require them to lose chain of custody and send data outside of the accoun. That is so critical to that aspect. And then we don't ask them to transfer it outside of the region, so, that's another critical piece is data residency has to be involved as part of that compliance conversation. >> How much does Cloud enable you to do this that you couldn't really do before? I mean, this really shows the advantage of natively being in the Cloud to kind of take advantage of the IaaS to SAS components to solve these problems. Share your thoughts on how this is possible. What if there was no problem, what would you do? >> It really makes it a piece of cake. As silly as that sounds, when we deploy our solution, we provide a management console for them that runs inside their own accounts. So again, no metadata or anything has to come out of it and it's all push button click and because the Cloud makes it scalable because Cloud offers infrastructure as code, we can take advantage of that and then, when they say go protect data in the Ireland region, they push a button, we stand up a stack right there in the Ireland region and scan and protect their data right there. If they say we need to be in GovCloud and operate in GovCloud East, there you go, push the button and you can behave in GovCloud East as well. >> And with server lists and the region support and all the goodness really makes a really good opportunity to really manage these Cloud native services with the data interaction so, really good prospects. Final question for you. I mean, we love the story. I think it is going to be a really changing market in this area in a big way. I think the data storage relationship relative to higher level services will be huge as Cloud native continues to drive everything. What's the future? I mean, you guys see yourself as a all encompassing, all singing and dancing storage platform or a set of services that you're going to enable developers and drive that value. Where do you see this going? >> I think that it's a mix of both. Ultimately, you saw even on Storage Day the announcement of file cash and file cash creates a new common name space across different storage platforms and so, the notion of being able to use one area to access your data and have it come from different spots is fantastic. That's been in the on-prem world for a couple of years and it's finally making it to the Cloud. I see us following that trend in helping support. We're super laser-focused on Cloud Storage itself so, EBS volumes, we keep having customers come to us and say, "I don't want to run agents in my EC2 instances. I want you to snap and scan and I don't want to, I've got all this EFS and FSX out there that we want to scan," and so, we see that all of the Cloud Storage platforms, Amazon work docs, EFS, FSX, EBS, S3, we'll all come together and we'll provide a solution that's super simple, highly scalable that can meet all the storage needs so, that's our goal right now and where we're working towards. >> Well, Cloud Storage Security, you couldn't get a more a descriptive name of what you guys are working on and again, I've had many contacts with Andy Jassy when he was running AWS and he always loves to quote "The Innovator's Dilemma," one of his teachers at Harvard Business School and we were riffing on that the other day and I want to get your thoughts. It's not so much "The Innovator's Dilemma" anymore relative to Cloud 'cause that's kind of a done deal. It's "The Integrator's Dilemma," and so, it's the integrations are so huge now. If you don't integrate the right way, that's the new dilemma. What's your reaction to that? >> A 100% agreed. It's been super interesting. Our customers have come to us for a security solution and they don't expect us to be 'cause we don't want to be either. Our own engine vendor, we're not the ones creating the engines. We are integrating other engines in and so we can provide a multi engine scan that gives you higher efficacy. So this notion of offering simple integrations without slowing down the process, that's the key factor here is what we've been after so, we are about simplifying the Cloud experience to protecting your storage and it's been so funny because I thought customers might complain that we're not a name brand engine vendor, but they love the fact that we have multiple engines in place and we're bringing that to them this higher efficacy, multi engine scan. >> I mean the developer trends can change on a dime. You make it faster, smarter, higher velocity and more protected, that's a winning formula in the Cloud so Ed, congratulations and thanks for spending the time to riff on and talk about Cloud Storage Security and congratulations on the company's success. Thanks for coming on "theCUBE." >> My pleasure, thanks a lot, John. >> Okay. This conversation here in Palo Alto, California I'm John Furrier, host of "theCUBE." Thanks for watching.

>>Hey, everyone. Welcome to the AWS partner, showcase women in tech. I'm Lisa Martin from the cube. And today we're gonna be looking into the exciting evolution of women in the tech industry. I'm going to be joined by Danielle GShock, the ISP PSA director at AWS. And we have the privilege of speaking with some wicked smart women from Teradata NetApp. JFI a 10th revolution group, company and honeycomb.io. We're gonna look at some of the challenges and biases that women face in the tech industry, especially in leadership roles. We're also gonna be exploring how are these tech companies addressing diversity, equity and inclusion across their organizations? How can we get more young girls into stem earlier in their careers? So many questions. So let's go ahead and get started. This is the AWS partner showcase women in tech. Hey, everyone. Welcome to the AWS partner showcase. This is season one, episode three. And I'm your host, Lisa Martin. I've got two great guests here with me to talk about women in tech. Hillary Ashton joins us the chief product officer at Terry data. And Danielle Greshaw is back with us, the ISV PSA director at AWS ladies. It's great to have you on the program talking through such an important topic, Hillary, let's go ahead and start with you. Give us a little bit of an intro into you, your background, and a little bit about Teradata. >>Yeah, absolutely. So I'm Hillary Ashton. I head up the products organization. So that's our engineering product management office of the CTO team. Um, at Teradata I've been with Terra data for just about three years and really have spent the last several decades. If I can say that in the data and analytics space, um, I spent time, uh, really focused on the value of, of analytics at scale, and I'm super excited to be here at Teradata. I'm also a mom of two teenage boys. And so as we talk about women in tech, I think there's, um, uh, lots of different dimensions and angles of that. Um, at Teradata, we are partnered very deeply with AWS and happy to talk a little bit more about that, um, throughout this discussion as well. >>Excellent. A busy mom of two teen boys. My goodness. I don't know how you do it. Let's now look, Atter data's views of diversity, equity and inclusion. It's a, the, it's a topic that's important to everyone, but give us a snapshot into some of the initiatives that Terra data has there. >>Yeah, I have to say, I am super proud to be working at Teradata. We have gone through, uh, a series of transformations, but I think it starts with culture and we are deeply committed to diversity, equity and inclusion. It's really more than just a statement here. It's just how we live our lives. Um, and we use, uh, data to back that up. Um, in fact, we were named one of the world's most ethical companies for the 13th year in a row. Um, and all of our executive leadership team has taken an oath around D E and I that's available on LinkedIn as well. So, um, in fact, our leadership team reporting into the CEO is just about 50 50, um, men and women, which is the first time I've worked in a company where that has been the case. And I think as individuals, we can probably appreciate what a huge difference that makes in terms of not just being a representative, but truly being on a, on a diverse and equitable, uh, team. And I think it really, uh, improves the behaviors that we can bring, um, to our office. >>There's so much value in that. It's I impressive to see about a 50 50 at the leadership level. That's not something that we see very often. Tell me how you, Hillary, how did you get into tech? Were you an engineering person by computer science, or did you have more of a zigzaggy path to where you are now? >>I'm gonna pick door number two and say more zigzaggy. Um, I started off thinking, um, that I started off as a political science major or a government major. Um, and I was probably destined to go into, um, the law field, but actually took a summer course at Harvard. I did not go to Harvard, but I took a summer course there and learned a lot about multimedia and some programming. And that really set me on a trajectory of how, um, data and analytics can truly provide value and, and outcomes to our customers. Um, and I have been living that life ever since. Um, I graduated from college, so, um, I was very excited and privileged in my early career to, uh, work in a company where I found after my first year that I was managing, um, uh, kids, people who had graduated from Harvard business school and from MIT Sloan school. Um, and that was super crazy, cuz I did not go to either of those schools, but I sort of have always had a natural knack for how do you take technology and, and the really cool things that technology can do, but because I'm not a programmer by training, I'm really focused on the value that I'm able to help, um, organizations really extract value, um, from the technology that we can create, which I think is fantastic. >>I think there's so much value in having a zigzag path into tech. You bring Danielle, you and I have talked about this many times you bring such breadth and such a wide perspective. That really is such a value. Add to teams. Danielle, talk to us from AWS's perspective about what can be done to encourage more young women to get and under and underrepresented groups as well, to get into stem and stay. >>Yeah, and this is definitely a challenge as we're trying to grow our organization and kind of shift the numbers. And the reality is, especially with the more senior folks in our organization, unless you bring folks with a zigzag path, the likelihood is you won't be able to change the numbers that you have. Um, but for me, it's really been about, uh, looking at that, uh, the folks who are just graduating college, maybe in other roles where they are adjacent to technology and to try to spark their interest and show that yes, they can do it because oftentimes it's really about believing in themselves and, and realizing that we need folks with all sorts of different perspectives to kind of come in, to be able to help really, um, provide both products and services and solutions for all types of people inside of technology, which requires all sorts of perspectives. >>Yeah, the diverse perspectives. There's so much value and there's a lot of data that demonstrates how much value revenue impact organizations can make by having diversity, especially at the leadership level. Hillary, let's go back to you. We talked about your career path. You talked about some of the importance of the focus on de and I at Tarana, but what are, what do you think can be done to encourage, to sorry, to recruit more young women and under groups into tech, any, any carrot there that you think are really important that we need to be dangling more of? >>Yeah, absolutely. And I'll build on what Danielle just said. I think the, um, bringing in diverse understandings, um, of, of customer outcomes, I mean, I, the we've really moved from technology for technology's sake and I know AWS and entirety to have had a lot of conversations on how do we drive customer outcomes that are differentiated in the market and really being customer centric and technology is wonderful. You can do wonderful things with it. You can do not so wonderful things with it as well, but unless you're really focused on the outcomes and what customers are seeking, um, technology is not hugely valuable. And so I think bringing in people who understand, um, voice of customer who understand those outcomes, and those are not necessarily the, the, the folks who are PhD in mathematics or statistics, um, those can be people who understand a day in the life of a data scientist or a day in the life of a citizen data scientist. And so really working to bridge the high impact technology with the practical kind of usability, usefulness of data and analytics in our cases, I think is something that we need more of in tech and sort of demystifying tech and freeing technology so that everybody can use it and having a really wide range of people who understand not just the bits and bites and, and how to program, but also the value in outcomes that technology through data and analytics can drive. >>Yeah. You know, we often talk about the hard skills, but this, their soft skills are equally, if not more important that even just being curious, being willing to ask questions, being not afraid to be vulnerable, being able to show those sides of your personality. I think those are important for, for young women and underrepresented groups to understand that those are just as important as some of the harder technical skills that can be taught. >>That's right. >>What do you think about from a bias perspective, Hillary, what have you seen in the tech industry and how do you think we can leverage culture as you talked about to help dial down some of the biases that are going on? >>Yeah. I mean, I think first of all, and, and there's some interesting data out there that says that 90% of the population, which includes a lot of women have some inherent bias in their day, day behaviors when it comes to to women in particular. But I'm sure that that is true across all kinds of, of, um, diverse and underrepresented folks in, in the world. And so I think acknowledging that we have bias and actually really learning how, what that can look like, how that can show up. We might be sitting here and thinking, oh, of course I don't have any bias. And then you realize that, um, as you, as you learn more about, um, different types of bias, that actually you do need to kind of, um, account for that and change behaviors. And so I think learning is sort of a fundamental, um, uh, grounding for all of us to really know what bias looks like, know how it shows up in each of us. >>Um, if we're leaders know how it shows up in our teams and make sure that we are constantly getting better, we're, we're not gonna be perfect anytime soon. But I think being on a path to improvement to overcoming bias, um, is really, is really critical. And part of that is really starting the dialogue, having the conversations, holding ourselves and each other accountable, um, when things aren't going in, in a, in a Coptic way and being able to talk openly about that, that felt, um, like maybe there was some bias in that interaction and how do we, um, how do we make good on that? How do we change our, our behavior? Fundamentally of course, data and analytics can have some bias in it as well. And so I think as we look at the, the technology aspect of bias, um, looking at at ethical AI, I think is a, a really important, uh, additional area. And I'm sure we could spend another 20 minutes talking about that, but I, I would be remiss if I didn't talk more about sort of the bias, um, and the over the opportunity to overcome bias in data and analytics as well. >>Yeah. The opportunity to overcome it is definitely there you bring up a couple of really good points, Hillary. It, it starts with awareness. We need to be aware that there are inherent biases in data in thought. And also to your other point, hold people accountable ourselves, our teammates, that's critical to being able to, to dial that back down, Daniel, I wanna get your perspective on, on your view of women in leadership roles. Do you think that we have good representation or we still have work to do in there? >>I definitely think in both technical and product roles, we definitely have some work to do. And, you know, when I think about, um, our partnership with Teradata, part of the reason why it's so important is, you know, Teradata solution is really the brains of a lot of companies. Um, you know, the what, how, what they differentiate on how they figure out insights into their business. And it's, it's all about the product itself and the data and the same is true at AWS. And, you know, we really could do some work to have some more women in these technical roles, as well as in the product, shaping the products. Uh, just for all the reasons that we just kind of talked about over the last 10 minutes, um, in order to, you know, move bias out of our, um, out of our solutions and also to just build better products and have, uh, better, you know, outcomes for customers. So I think there's a bit of work to do still. >>I agree. There's definitely a bit of work to do, and it's all about delivering those better outcomes for customers at the end of the day, we need to figure out what the right ways are of doing that and working together in a community. Um, we've had obviously a lot had changed in the last couple of years, Hillary, what's your, what have you seen in terms of the impact that the pandemic has had on this status of women in tech? Has it been a pro is silver lining the opposite? What are you seeing? >>Yeah, I mean, certainly there's data out there that tells us factually that it has been, um, very difficult for women during COVID 19. Um, women have, uh, dropped out of the workforce for a wide range of, of reasons. Um, and, and that I think is going to set us back all of us, the, the Royal us or the Royal we back, um, years and years. Um, and, and it's very unfortunate because I think we we're at a time when we're making great progress and now to see COVID, um, setting us back in, in such a powerful way. I think there's work to be done to understand how do we bring people back into the workforce. Um, how do we do that? Understanding work life balance, better understanding virtual and remote, working better. I think in the technology sector, um, we've really embraced, um, hybrid virtual work and are, are empowering people to bring their whole selves to work. >>And I think if anything, these, these zoom calls have, um, both for the men and the women on my team. In fact, I would say much more. So for the men on my team, I'm seeing, I was seeing more kids in the background, more kind of split childcare duties, more ability to start talking about, um, other responsibilities that maybe they had, uh, especially in the early days of COVID where maybe daycares were shut down. And, um, you had, you know, maybe a parent was sick. And so we saw quite a lot of, um, people bringing their whole selves to the office, which I think was, was really wonderful. Um, uh, even our CEO saw some of that. And I think, um, that that really changes the dialogue, right? It changes it to maybe scheduling meetings at a time when, um, people can do it after daycare drop off. >>Um, and really allowing that both for men and for women makes it better for, for women overall. So I would like to think that this hybrid working, um, environment and that this, um, uh, whole view into somebody's life that COVID has really provided for probably for white collar workers, if I'm being honest for, um, people who are in a, at a better point of privilege, they don't necessarily have to go into the office every day. I would like to think that tech can lead the way in, um, you know, coming out of the, the old COVID. I don't know if we have a new COVID coming, but the old COVID and really leading the way for women and for people, um, to transform how we do work, um, leveraging data and analytics, but also, um, overcoming some of the, the disparities that exist for women in particular in the workforce. >>Yeah, I think there's, there's like we say, there's a lot of opportunity there and I like your point of hopefully tech can be that guiding light that shows us this can be done. We're all humans at the end of the day. And ultimately if we're able to have some sort of work life balance, everything benefits, our work or more productive, higher performing teams impacts customers, right? There's so much value that can be gleaned from, from that hybrid model and embracing for humans. We need to be able to, to work when we can, we've learned that you don't have to be, you know, in an office 24, 7 commuting, crazy hours flying all around the world. We can get a lot of things done in a ways that fit people's lives rather than taking command over it. Wanna get your advice, Hillary, if you were to talk to your younger self, what would be some of the key pieces of advice you would say? And Danielle and I have talked about this before, and sometimes we, we would both agree on like, ask more questions. Don't be afraid to raise your hand, but what advice would you give your younger self and that younger generation in terms of being inspired to get into tech >>Oh, inspired and being in tech? You know, I think looking at technology as, in some ways, I feel like we do a disservice to, um, inclusion when we talk about stem, cuz I think stem can be kind of daunting. It can be a little scary for people for younger people. When I, when I go and talk to folks at schools, I think stem is like, oh, all the super smart kids are over there. They're all like maybe they're all men. And so, um, it's, it's a little, uh, intimidating. Um, and stem is actually, you know, especially for, um, people joining the workforce today. It's actually how you've been living your life since you were born. I mean, you know, stem inside and out because you walk around with a phone and you know how to get your internet working and like that is technology right. >>Fundamentally. And so demystifying stem as something that is around how we, um, actually make our, our lives useful and, and, and how we can change outcomes. Um, through technology I think is maybe a different lens to put on it. So, and there's absolutely for, for hard sciences, there's absolutely a, a great place in the world for folks who wanna pursue that and men and women can do that. So I, I don't want to be, um, uh, setting the wrong expectations, but I, I think stem is, is very holistic in, um, in the change that's happening globally for us today across economies, across global warming, across all kinds of impactful issues. And so I think everybody who's interested in, in some of that world change can participate in stem. It just may be through a different, through a different lens than how we classically talk about stem. >>So I think there's great opportunity to demystify stem. I think also, um, what I would tell my younger self is choose your bosses wisely. And that sounds really funny. That sounds like inside out almost, but I think choose the person that you're gonna work for in your first five to seven years. And it might be more than one person, but be, be selective, maybe be a little less selective about the exact company or the exact title. I think picking somebody that, you know, we talk about mentors and we talk about sponsors and those are important. Um, but the person you're gonna spend in your early career, a lot of your day with a lot, who's gonna influence a lot of the outcomes for you. That is the person that you, I think want to be more selective about, um, because that person can set you up for success and give you opportunities and set you on course to be, um, a standout or that person can hold you back. >>And that person can put you in the corner and not invite you to the meetings and not give you those opportunities. And so we're in an economy today where you actually can, um, be a little bit picky about who you go and work for. And I would encourage my younger self. I actually, I just lucked out actually, but I think that, um, my first boss really set me, um, up for success, gave me a lot of feedback and coaching. Um, and some of it was really hard to hear, but it really set me up for, for, um, the, the path that I've been on ever since. So it, that would be my advice. >>I love that advice. I it's brilliant. I didn't think it choose your bosses wisely. Isn't something that we primarily think about. I think a lot of people think about the big name companies that they wanna go after and put on a resume, but you bring up a great point. And Danielle and I have talked about this with other guests about mentors and sponsors. I think that is brilliant advice and also more work to do to demystify stem. But luckily we have great family leaders like the two of you helping us to do that. Ladies, I wanna thank you so much for joining me on the program today and talking through what you're seeing in de and I, what your companies are doing and the opportunities that we have to move the needle. Appreciate your time. >>Thank you so much. Great to see you, Danielle. Thank you Lisa, to see you. >>My pleasure for my guests. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the AWS partner showcase season one, episode three. Hey everyone. Welcome to the AWS partner showcase. This is season one, episode three, with a focus on women in tech. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. I've got two guests here with me, Sue Peretti, the EVP of global AWS strategic alliances at Jefferson Frank, a 10th revolution group company, and Danielle brushoff. One of our cube alumni joins us ISV PSA director, ladies. It's great to have you on the program talking about a, a topic that is near and dear to my heart at women in tech. >>Thank you, Lisa. >>So let's go ahead and start with you. Give the audience an understanding of Jefferson Frank, what does the company do and about the partnership with AWS? >>Sure. Um, so let's just start, uh, Jefferson Frank is a 10th revolution group company. And if you look at it, it's really talent as a service. So Jefferson Frank provides talent solutions all over the world for AWS clients, partners and users, et cetera. And we have a sister company called revelent, which is a talent creation company within the AWS ecosystem. So we create talent and put it out in the ecosystem. Usually underrepresented groups over half of them are women. And then we also have, uh, a company called rubra, which is a delivery model around AWS technology. So all three companies fall under the 10th revolution group organization. >>Got it. Danielle, talk to me a little bit about from AWS's perspective and the focus on hiring more women in technology and about the partnership. >>Yes. I mean, this has definitely been a focus ever since I joined eight years ago, but also just especially in the last few years we've grown exponentially and our customer base has changed. You know, we wanna have, uh, an organization interacting with them that reflects our customers, right. And, uh, we know that we need to keep pace with that even with our growth. And so we've very much focused on early career talent, um, bringing more women and underrepresented minorities into the organization, sponsoring those folks, promoting them, uh, giving them paths to growth, to grow inside of the organization. I'm an example of that. Of course I benefit benefited from it, but also I try to bring that into my organization as well. And it's super important. >>Tell me a little bit about how you benefited from that, Danielle. >>Um, I just think that, um, you know, I I've been able to get, you know, a seat at the table. I think that, um, I feel as though I have folks supporting me, uh, very deeply and wanna see me succeed. And also they put me forth as, um, you know, a, represent a representative, uh, to bring more women into the organization as well. And I think, um, they give me a platform, uh, in order to do that, um, like this, um, but also many other, uh, spots as well. Um, and I'm happy to do it because I feel that, you know, if you always wanna feel that you're making a difference in your job, and that is definitely a place where I get that time and space in order to be that representative to, um, bring more, more women into benefiting from having careers in technology, which there's a lot of value there, >>A lot of value. Absolutely. So back over to you, what are some of the trends that you are seeing from a gender diversity perspective in tech? We know the, the numbers of women in technical positions, uh, right. There's so much data out there that shows when girls start dropping up, but what are some of the trends that you are seeing? >>So it's, that's a really interesting question. And, and Lisa, I had a whole bunch of data points that I wanted to share with you, but just two weeks ago, uh, I was in San Francisco with AWS at the, at the summit. And we were talking about this. We were talking about how we can collectively together attract more women, not only to, uh, AWS, not only to technology, but to the AWS ecosystem in particular. And it was fascinating because I was talking about, uh, the challenges that women have and how hard to believe, but about 5% of women who were in the ecosystem have left in the past few years, which was really, really, uh, something that shocked everyone when we, when we were talking about it, because all of the things that we've been asking for, for instance, uh, working from home, um, better pay, uh, more flexibility, uh, better maternity leave seems like those things are happening. >>So we're getting what we want, but people are leaving. And it seemed like the feedback that we got was that a lot of women still felt very underrepresented. The number one thing was that they, they couldn't be, you can't be what you can't see. So because they, we feel collectively women, uh, people who identify as women just don't see enough women in leadership, they don't see enough mentors. Um, I think I've had great mentors, but, but just not enough. I'm lucky enough to have a pres a president of our company, the president of our company, Zoe Morris is a woman and she does lead by example. So I'm very lucky for that. And Jefferson, Frank really quickly, we put out a hiring a salary and hiring guide a career and hiring guide every year and the data points. And that's about 65 pages long. No one else does it. Uh, it gives an abundance of information around, uh, everything about the AWS ecosystem that a hiring manager might need to know. But there is what, what I thought was really unbelievable was that only 7% of the people that responded to it were women. So my goal, uh, being that we have such a very big global platform is to get more women to respond to that survey so we can get as much information and take action. So >>Absolutely 7%. So a long way to go there. Danielle, talk to me about AWS's focus on women in tech. I was watching, um, Sue, I saw that you shared on LinkedIn, the Ted talk that the CEO and founder of girls and co did. And one of the things that she said was that there was a, a survey that HP did some years back that showed that, um, 60%, that, that men will apply for jobs if they only meet 60% of the list of requirements. Whereas with females, it's far, far less, we've all been in that imposter syndrome, um, conundrum before. But Danielle, talk to us about AWS, a specific focus here to get these numbers up. >>I think it speaks to what Susan was talking about, how, you know, I think we're approaching it top and bottom, right? We're looking out at what are the, who are the women who are currently in technical positions and how can we make AWS an attractive place for them to work? And that's all a lot of the changes that we've had around maternity leave and, and those types of things, but then also, um, more flexible working, uh, can, you know, uh, arrangements, but then also, um, early, how can we actually impact early, um, career women and actually women who are still in school. Um, and our training and certification team is doing amazing things to get, um, more girls exposed to AWS, to technology, um, and make it a less intimidating place and have them look at employees from AWS and say like, oh, I can see myself in those people. >>Um, and kind of actually growing the viable pool of candidates. I think, you know, we're, we're limited with the viable pool of candidates, um, when you're talking about mid to late career. Um, but how can we, you know, help retrain women who are coming back into the workplace after, you know, having a child and how can we help with military women who want to, uh, or underrepresented minorities who wanna move into AWS, we have a great military program, but then also just that early high school, uh, career, you know, getting them in, in that trajectory. >>Sue, is that something that Jefferson Frank is also able to help with is, you know, getting those younger girls before they start to feel there's something wrong with me. I don't get this. Talk to us about how Jefferson Frank can help really drive up that in those younger girls. >>Uh, let me tell you one other thing to refer back to that summit that we did, uh, we had breakout sessions and that was one of the topics. What can cuz that's the goal, right? To make sure that, that there are ways to attract them. That's the goal? So some of the things that we talked about was mentoring programs, uh, from a very young age, some people said high school, but then we said even earlier, goes back to you. Can't be what you can't see. So, uh, getting mentoring programs, uh, established, uh, we also talked about some of the great ideas was being careful of how we speak to women using the right language to attract them. And some, there was a teachable moment for, for me there actually, it was really wonderful because, um, an African American woman said to me, Sue and I, I was talking about how you can't be what you can't see. >>And what she said was Sue, it's really different. Um, for me as an African American woman, uh, or she identified, uh, as nonbinary, but she was relating to African American women. She said, your white woman, your journey was very different than my journey. And I thought, this is how we're going to learn. I wasn't offended by her calling me out at all. It was a teachable moment. And I thought I understood that, but those are the things that we need to educate people on those, those moments where we think we're, we're saying and doing the right thing, but we really need to get that bias out there. So here at Jefferson, Frank, we're, we're trying really hard to get that careers and hiring guide out there. It's on our website to get more women, uh, to talk to it, but to make suggestions in partnership with AWS around how we can do this mentoring, we have a mentor me program. We go around the country and do things like this. We, we try to get the education out there in partnership with AWS. Uh, we have a, a women's group, a women's leadership group, uh, so much that, that we do, and we try to do it in partnership with AWS. >>Danielle, can you comment on the impact that AWS has made so far, um, regarding some of the trends and, and gender diversity that Sue was talking about? What's the impact that's been made so far with this partnership? >>Well, I mean, I think just being able to get more of the data and have awareness of leaders, uh, on how <laugh>, you know, it used to be a, a couple years back, I would feel like sometimes the, um, uh, solving to bring more women into the organization was kind of something that folks thought, oh, this is Danielle is gonna solve this. You know? And I think a lot of folks now realize, oh, this is something that we all need to solve for. And a lot of my colleagues who maybe a couple years ago, didn't have any awareness or didn't even have the tools to do what they needed to do in order to improve the statistics on their, or in their organizations. Now actually have those tools and are able to kind of work with, um, work with companies like Susan's work with Jefferson Frank in order to actually get the data and actually make good decisions and feel as though, you know, they, they often, these are not lived experiences for these folks, so they don't know what they don't know. And by providing data and providing awareness and providing tooling and then setting goals, I think all of those things have really turned, uh, things around in a very positive way. >>And so you bring up a great point about from a diversity perspective, what is Jefferson Frank doing to, to get those data points up, to get more women of, of all well, really underrepresented minorities to, to be able to provide that feedback so that you can, can have the data and gleamy insights from it to help companies like AWS on their strategic objectives. >>Right? So as I, when I go back to that higher that, uh, careers in hiring guide, that is my focus today, really because the more data that we have, I mean, the, and the data takes, uh, you know, we need people to participate in order to, to accurately, uh, get a hold of that data. So that's why we're asking, uh, we're taking the initiative to really expand our focus. We are a global organization with a very, very massive database all over the world, but if people don't take action, then we can't get the right. The, the, the data will not be as accurate as we'd like it to be. Therefore take better action. So what we're doing is we're asking people all over the, all over the world to participate on our website, Jefferson frank.com, the se the high, uh, in the survey. So we can learn as much as we can. >>7% is such a, you know, Danielle and I we're, we've got to partner on this just to sort of get that message out there, get more data so we can execute, uh, some of the other things that we're doing. We're, we're partnering in. As I mentioned, more of these events, uh, we're, we're doing around the summits, we're gonna be having more ed and I events and collecting more information from women. Um, like I said, internally, we do practice what we preach and we have our own programs that are, that are out there that are within our own company where the women who are talking to candidates and clients every single day are trying to get that message out there. So if I'm speaking to a client or one of our internal people are speaking to a client or a candidate, they're telling them, listen, you know, we really are trying to get these numbers up. >>We wanna attract as many people as we can. Would you mind going to this, uh, hiring guide and offering your own information? So we've gotta get that 7% up. We've gotta keep talking. We've gotta keep, uh, getting programs out there. One other thing I wanted to Danielle's point, she mentioned, uh, women in leadership, the number that we gathered was only 9% of women in leadership within the AWS ecosystem. We've gotta get that number up, uh, as well because, um, you know, I know for me, when I see people like Danielle or, or her peers, it inspires me. And I feel like, you know, I just wanna give back, make sure I send the elevator back to the first floor and bring more women in to this amazing ecosystem. >>Absolutely. That's not that metaphor I do too, but we, but to your point to get that those numbers up, not just at AWS, but everywhere else we need, it's a help me help use situation. So ladies underrepresented minorities, if you're watching go to the Jefferson Frank website, take the survey, help provide the data so that the woman here that are doing this amazing work, have it to help make decisions and have more of females and leadership roles or underrepresented minorities. So we can be what we can see. Ladies, thank you so much for joining me today and sharing what you guys are doing together to partner on this important. Cause >>Thank you for having me, Leah, Lisa, >>Thank you. My pleasure for my guests. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cubes coverage of the AWS partner showcase. Thanks for your time. Hey everyone. Welcome to the AWS partner showcase season one, episode three women in tech. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. We've got two female rock stars here with me next. Stephanie Curry joins us the worldwide head of sales and go to market strategy for AWS at NetApp and Danielle GShock is back one of our QM ISV PSA director at AWS. Looking forward to a great conversation, ladies, about a great topic, Stephanie, let's go ahead and start with you. Give us an overview of your story, how you got into tech and what inspired you. >>Thanks so much, Lisa and Danielle. It's great to be on this show with you. Um, thank you for that. Uh, my name's Stephanie cur, as Lisa mentioned, I'm the worldwide head of sales for, uh, AWS at NetApp and run a global team of sales people that sell all things AWS, um, going back 25 years now, uh, when I first started my career in tech, it was kind of by accident. Um, I come from a different background. I have a business background and a technical background from school, um, but had been in a different career and I had an opportunity to try something new. Um, I had an ally really that reached out to me and said, Hey, you'd be great for this role. And I thought, I'd take a chance. I was curious. Um, and, uh, it, it turned out to be a 25 year career, um, that I'm really, really excited about and, and, um, really thankful for that person, for introducing me to the, to the industry >>25 years in counting. I'm sure Danielle, we've talked about your background before. So what I wanna focus on with you is the importance of diversity for high performance. I know what a machine AWS is, and Stephanie'll come back to you with the same question, but talk about that, Danielle, from your perspective, that importance, um, for diversity to drive the performance. >>Yeah. Yeah. I truly believe that, you know, in order to have high performing teams, that you have to have people from all different types of backgrounds and experiences. And we do find that oftentimes being, you know, field facing, if we're not reflecting our customers and connecting with them deeply, um, on, on the levels that they're at, we, we end up missing them. And so for us, it's very important to bring people of lots of different technical backgrounds experiences. And of course, both men, women, and underrepresented minorities and put that forth to our customers, um, in order to make that connection and to end up with better outcomes. So >>Definitely it's all about outcomes, Stephanie, your perspective and NetApp's perspective on diversity for creating highly performant teams and organizations. >>I really aligned with Danielle on the comment she made. And in addition to that, you know, just from building teams in my, um, career know, we've had three times as many women on my team since we started a year ago and our results are really showing in that as well. Um, we find the teams are stronger, they're more collaborative and to Danielle's point really reflective, not only our partners, but our customers themselves. So this really creates connections, which are really, really important to scale our businesses and, and really, uh, meet the customer where they're at as well. So huge proponent of that ourselves, and really finding that we have to be intentional in our hiring and intentional in how we attract diversity to our teams. >>So Stephanie let's stay with you. So a three X increase in women on the team in a year, especially the kind of last year that we've had is really incredible. I, I like your, I, your thoughts on there needs to be a, there needs to be focus and, and thought in how teams are hired. Let's talk about attracting and retaining those women now, especially in sales roles, we all know the number, the percentages of women in technical roles, but what are some of the things that, that you do Stephanie, that NetApp does to attract and retain women in those sales roles? >>The, the attracting part's really interesting. And we find that, you know, you, you read the stats and I'd say in my experience, they're also true in the fact that, um, a lot of women would look at a job description and say, I can't do a hundred percent of that, that, so I'm not even going to apply with the women that we've attracted to our team. We've actually intentionally reached out and targeted those people in a good way, um, to say, Hey, we think you've got what it takes. Some of the feedback I've got from those women are, gosh, I didn't think I could ever get this role. I didn't think I had the skills to do that. And they've been hired and they are doing a phenomenal job. In addition to that, I think a lot of the feedback I've got from these hires are, Hey, it's an aggressive sales is aggressive. Sales is competitive. It's not an environment that I think I can be successful in. And what we're showing them is bring those softer skills around collaboration, around connection, around building teams. And they do, they do bring a lot of that to the team. Then they see others like them there and they know they can be successful cuz they see others like them on the team, >>The whole concept of we can't be what we can't see, but we can be what we can't see is so important. You said a couple things, Stephanie, that really stuck with me. And one of them was an interview on the Cub I was doing, I think a couple weeks ago, um, about women in tech. And the stat that we talked about was that women will apply will not apply for a job unless they meet 100% of the skills and the requirements that it's listed, but men will, if they only meet 60. And I, that just shocked me that I thought, you know, I, I can understand that imposter syndrome is real. It's a huge challenge, but the softer skills, as you mentioned, especially in the last two years, plus the ability to communicate, the ability to collaborate are incredibly important to, to drive that performance of any team of any business. >>Absolutely. >>Danielle, talk to me about your perspective and AWS as well for attracting and retaining talent. And, and, and particularly in some of those challenging roles like sales that as Stephanie said, can be known as aggressive. >>Yeah, for sure. I mean, my team is focused on the technical aspect of the field and we definitely have an uphill battle for sure. Um, two things we are focused on first and foremost is looking at early career women and that how we, how can we bring them into this role, whether in they're in support functions, uh, cl like answering the phone for support calls, et cetera, and how, how can we bring them into this organization, which is a bit more strategic, more proactive. Um, and then the other thing that as far as retention goes, you know, sometimes there will be women who they're on a team and there are no other women on that team. And, and for me, it's about building community inside of AWS and being part of, you know, we have women on solution architecture organizations. We have, uh, you know, I just personally connect people as well and to like, oh, you should meet this person. Oh, you should talk to that person. Because again, sometimes they can't see someone on their team like them and they just need to feel anchored, especially as we've all been, you know, kind of stuck at home, um, during the pandemic, just being able to make those connections with women like them has been super important and just being a, a long tenured Amazonian. Um, that's definitely one thing I'm able to, to bring to the table as well. >>That's so important and impactful and spreads across organizations in a good way. Daniel let's stick with you. Let's talk about some of the allies that you've had sponsors, mentors that have really made a difference. And I said that in past tense, but I also mean in present tense, who are some of those folks now that really inspire you? >>Yeah. I mean, I definitely would say that one of my mentors and someone who, uh, ha has been a sponsor of my career has, uh, Matt YK, who is one of our control tower GMs. He has really sponsored my career and definitely been a supporter of mine and pushed me in positive ways, which has been super helpful. And then other of my business partners, you know, Sabina Joseph, who's a cube alum as well. She definitely has been, was a fabulous partner to work with. Um, and you know, between the two of us for a period of time, we definitely felt like we could, you know, conquer the world. It's very great to go in with a, with another strong woman, um, you know, and, and get things done, um, inside of an organization like AWS. >>Absolutely. And S I've, I've agreed here several times. So Stephanie, same question for you. You talked a little bit about your kind of, one of your, uh, original early allies in the tech industry, but talk to me about allies sponsors, mentors who have, and continue to make a difference in your life. >>Yeah. And, you know, I think it's a great differentiation as well, right? Because I think that mentors teach us sponsors show us the way and allies make room for us at the table. And that is really, really key difference. I think also as women leaders, we need to make room for others at the table too, and not forget those softer skills that we bring to the table. Some of the things that Danielle mentioned as well about making those connections for others, right. And making room for them at the table. Um, some of my allies, a lot of them are men. Brian ABI was my first mentor. Uh, he actually is in the distribution, was in distribution, uh, with advent tech data no longer there. Um, Corey Hutchinson, who's now at Hashi Corp. He's also another ally of mine and remains an ally of mine, even though we're not at the same company any longer. Um, so a lot of these people transcend careers and transcend, um, um, different positions that I've held as well and make room for us. And I think that's just really critical when we're looking for allies and when allies are looking for us, >>I love how you described allies, mentors and sponsors Stephanie. And the difference. I didn't understand the difference between a mentor and a sponsor until a couple of years ago. Do you talk with some of those younger females on your team so that when they come into the organization and maybe they're fresh outta college, or maybe they've transitioned into tech so that they can also learn from you and understand the importance and the difference between the allies and the sponsors and the mentors? >>Absolutely. And I think that's really interesting because I do take, uh, an extra, uh, approach an extra time to really reach out to the women that have joined the team. One. I wanna make sure they stay right. I don't want them feeling, Hey, I'm alone here and I need to, I need to go do something else. Um, and they are located around the world, on my team. They're also different age groups, so early in career, as well as more senior people and really reaching out, making sure they know that I'm there. But also as Danielle had mentioned, connecting them to other people in the community that they can reach out to for those same opportunities and making room for them >>Make room at the table. It's so important. And it can, you never know what a massive difference and impact you can make on someone's life. And I, and I bet there's probably a lot of mentors and sponsors and allies of mine that would be surprised to know, uh, the massive influence they've had Daniel back over. Let's talk about some of the techniques that you employ, that AWS employees to make the work environment, a great place for women to really thrive and, and be retained as Stephanie was saying. Of course that's so important. >>Yeah. I mean, definitely I think that the community building, as well as we have a bit more programmatic mentorship, um, we're trying to get to the point of having a more programmatic sponsorship as well. Um, but I think just making sure that, um, you know, both everything from, uh, recruit to onboard to ever boarding that, uh, they they're the women who come into the organization, whether it's they're coming in on the software engineering side or the field side or the sales side that they feel as that they have someone, uh, working with them to help them drive their career. Those are the key things that were, I think from an organizational perspective are happening across the board. Um, for me personally, when I run my organization, I'm really trying to make sure that people feel that they can come to me at any time open door policy, make sure that they're surfacing any times in which they are feeling excluded or anything like that, any challenges, whether it be with a customer, a partner or with a colleague. Um, and then also of course, just making sure that I'm being a good sponsor, uh, to, to people on my team. Um, that is key. You can talk about it, but you have to start with yourself as well. >>That's a great point. You you've got to, to start with yourself and really reflect on that. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and look, am I, am I embodying what it is that I need? And not that I know they need that focused, thoughtful intention on that is so importants, let's talk about some of the techniques that you use that NetApp uses to make the work environment a great place for those women are marginalized, um, communities to really thrive. >>Yeah. And I appreciate it and much like Danielle, uh, and much like AWS, we have some of those more structured programs, right around sponsorship and around mentorship. Um, probably some growth there, opportunities for allies, because I think that's more of a newer concept in really an informal structure around the allies, but something that we're growing into at NetApp, um, on my team personally, I think, um, leading by example's really key. And unfortunately, a lot of the, um, life stuffs still lands on the women, whether we like it or not. Uh, I have a very, uh, active husband in our household, but I still carry when it push comes to shove it's on me. Um, and I wanna make sure that my team knows it's okay to take some time and do the things you need to do with your family. Um, I'm I show up as myself authentically and I encourage them to do the same. >>So it's okay to say, Hey, I need to take a personal day. I need to focus on some stuff that's happening in my personal life this week now, obviously to make sure your job's covered, but just allowing some of that softer vulnerability to come into the team as well, so that others, um, men and women can feel they can do the same thing. And that it's okay to say, I need to balance my life and I need to do some other things alongside. Um, so it's the formal programs, making sure people have awareness on them. Um, I think it's also softly calling people out on biases and saying, Hey, I'm not sure if you know, this landed that way, but I just wanted to make you aware. And usually the feedback is, oh my gosh, I didn't know. And could you coach me on something that I could do better next time? So all of this is driven through our NetApp formal programs, but then it's also how you manifest it on the teams that we're leading. >>Absolutely. And sometimes having that mirror to reflect into can be really eye-opening and, and allow you to, to see things in a completely different light, which is great. Um, you both talked about, um, kind of being what you, uh, can see, and, and I know both companies are upset customer obsessed in a good way. Talk to me a little bit, Danielle, go back over to you about the AWS NetApp partnership. Um, some of that maybe alignment on, on performance on obviously you guys are very well aligned, uh, in terms of that, but also it sounds like you're quite aligned on diversity and inclusion. >>Well, we definitely do. We have the best partnerships with companies in which we have these value alignments. So I think that is a positive thing, of course, but just from a, from a partnership perspective, you know, from my five now plus years of being a part of the APN, this is, you know, one of the most significant years with our launch of FSX for NetApp. Um, with that, uh, key key service, which we're making available natively on AWS. I, I can't think of a better Testament to the, to the, um, partnership than that. And that's doing incredibly well and it really resonates with our customers. And of course it started with customers and their need for NetApp. Uh, so, you know, that is a reflection, I think, of the success that we're having together. >>And Stephanie talk to, uh, about the partnership from your perspective, NetApp, AWS, what you guys are doing together, cultural alignment, but also your alignment on really bringing diversity into drive performance. >>Yeah, I think it's a, a great question. And I have to say it's just been a phenomenal year. Our relationship has, uh, started before our first party service with FSX N but definitely just, um, uh, the trajectory, um, between the two companies since the announcement about nine months ago has just taken off to a, a new level. Um, we feel like an extended part of the family. We worked together seamlessly. A lot of the people in my team often say we feel like Amazonians. Um, and we're really part of this transformation at NetApp from being that storage hardware company into being an ISV and a cloud company. And we could not do this without the partnership with AWS and without the, uh, first party service of Fs XM that we've recently released. Um, I think that those joint values that Danielle referred to are critical to our success, um, starting with customer obsession and always making sure that we are doing the right thing for the customer. >>We coach our team teams all the time on if you are doing the right thing for the customers, you cannot do anything wrong. Just always put the customer at the, in the center of your decisions. And I think that there is, um, a lot of best practice sharing and collaboration as we go through this change. And I think a lot of it is led by the diverse backgrounds that are on the team, um, female, male, um, race and so forth, and just to really, uh, have different perspectives and different experiences about how we approach this change. Um, so we definitely feel like a part of the family. Uh, we are absolutely loving, uh, working with the AWS team and our team knows that we are the right place, the right time with the right people. >>I love that last question for each of you. And I wanna stick with you Stephanie advice to your younger self, think back five years. What advice would you seen what you've accomplished and maybe the thet route that you've taken along the way, what would you advise your youngest Stephanie self. >>Uh, I would say keep being curious, right? Keep being curious, keep asking questions. And sometimes when you get a no, it's not a bad thing, it just means not right now and find out why and, and try to get feedback as to why maybe that wasn't the right opportunity for you. But, you know, just go for what you want. Continue to be curious, continue to ask questions and find a support network of people around you that wanna help you because they are there and they, they wanna see you be successful too. So never be shy about that stuff. >><laugh> absolutely. And I always say failure does not have to be an, a bad F word. A no can be the beginning of something. Amazing. Danielle, same question for you. Thinking back to when you first started in your career, what advice would you give your younger self? >>Yeah, I think the advice I'd give my younger self would be, don't be afraid to put yourself out there. Um, it's certainly, you know, coming from an engineering background, maybe you wanna stay behind the scenes, not, not do a presentation, not do a public speaking event, those types of things, but back to what the community really needs, this thing. Um, you know, I genuinely now, uh, took me a while to realize it, but I realized I needed to put myself out there in order to, um, you know, allow younger women to see what they could be. So that would be the advice I would give. Don't be afraid to put yourself out there. >>Absolutely. That advice that you both gave are, is so fantastic, so important and so applicable to everybody. Um, don't be afraid to put yourself out there, ask questions. Don't be afraid of a, no, that it's all gonna happen at some point or many points along the way. That can also be good. So thank you ladies. You inspired me. I appreciate you sharing what AWS and NetApp are doing together to strengthen diversity, to strengthen performance and the advice that you both shared for your younger selves was brilliant. Thank you. >>Thank you. >>Thank you >>For my guests. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the AWS partner showcase. See you next time. Hey everyone. Welcome to the AWS partner showcase season one, episode three women in tech. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. I've got two female rock stars joining me. Next Vero Reynolds is here engineering manager, telemetry at honeycomb, and one of our cube alumni, Danielle Ock ISV PSA director at AWS. Join us as well. Ladies. It's great to have you talking about a very important topic today. >>Thanks for having us. >>Yeah, thanks for having me. Appreciate it. >>Of course, Vera, let's go ahead and start with you. Tell me about your background and tech. You're coming up on your 10th anniversary. Happy anniversary. >>Thank you. That's right. I can't believe it's been 10 years. Um, but yeah, I started in tech in 2012. Um, I was an engineer for most of that time. Uh, and just recently as a March, switched to engineering management here at honeycomb and, um, you know, throughout my career, I was very much interested in all the things, right. And it was a big FOMO as far as trying a few different, um, companies and products. And I've done things from web development to mobile to platforms. Um, it would be apt to call me a generalist. Um, and in the more recent years I was sort of gravitating more towards developer tool space. And for me that, uh, came in the form of cloud Foundry circle CI and now honeycomb. Um, I actually had my eye on honeycomb for a while before joining, I came across a blog post by charity majors. >>Who's one of our founders and she was actually talking about management and how to pursue that and whether or not it's right, uh, for your career. And so I was like, who is this person? I really like her, uh, found the company. They were pretty small at the time. So I was sort of keeping my eye on them. And then when the time came around for me to look again, I did a little bit more digging, uh, found a lot of talks about the product. And on the one hand they really spoke to me as the solution. They talked about developers owning their coding production and answering questions about what is happening, what are your users seeing? And I felt that pain, I got what they were trying to do. And also on the other hand, every talk I saw at the time was from, uh, an amazing woman <laugh>, which I haven't seen before. Uh, so I came across charity majors again, Christine Y our other founder, and then Liz Jones, who's our principal developer advocate. And that really sealed the deal for me as far as wanting to work here. >>Yeah. Honeycomb is interesting. This is a female founded company. You're two leaders. You mentioned that you like the technology, but you were also attracted because you saw females in the leadership position. Talk to me a little bit about what that's like working for a female led organization at honeycomb. >>Yeah. You know, historically, um, we have tried not to over index on that because there was this, uh, maybe fear awareness of, um, it taking away from our legitimacy as an engineering organization, from our success as a company. Um, but I'm seeing that, uh, rhetoric shift recently because we believe that with great responsibility, uh, with great power comes great responsibility, and we're trying to be more intentional as far as using that attribute of our company. Um, so I would say that for me, it was, um, a choice between a few offers, right. And that was a selling point for sure, because again, I've never experienced it and I've really seen how much they walk that walk. Um, even me being here and me moving into management, I think were both, um, ways in which they really put a lot of trust and support in me. And so, um, I it's been a great ride. >>Excellent. Sounds like it. Before we bring Danielle in to talk about the partnership. I do wanna have you there talk to the audience a little bit about honeycomb, what technology it's delivering and what are its differentiators. >>Yeah, absolutely. Um, so honeycomb is an observability tool, uh, that enables engineers to answer questions about the code that runs in production. And, um, we work with a number of various customers. Some of them are Vanguards, slack. Hello, fresh, just to name a couple, if you're not familiar with observability tooling, it's akin to traditional application performance monitoring, but we believe that observability is succeeding APM because, uh, APM tools were built at the time of monoliths and they just weren't designed to help us answer questions about complex distributed systems that we work with today, where things can go wrong anywhere in that chain. And you can't predict what you're gonna need to ask ahead of time. So some of the ways that we are different is our ability to store and query really rich data, which we believe is the key to understanding those complex systems. >>What I mean by rich data is, um, something that has a lot of attributes. So for example, when an error happens, knowing who it happened to, which user ID, which, um, I don't know, region, they were in, um, what, what, what they were doing at the time and what was happening at the rest of your system. And our ingest engine is really fast. You can do it in as little as three seconds and we call data like this. I said, kind of rich data, contextual data. We refer it as having high ality and high dimensionality, which are big words. But at the end of the day, what that means is we can store and we can query the data. We can do it really fast. And to give you an example of how that looks for our customers, let's say you have a developer team who are using comb to understand and observe their system. >>And they get a report that a user is experiencing a slowdown or something's wrong. They can go into comb and figure out that this only happens to users who are using a particular language pack with their app. And they operated their app last week, that it only happens when they are trying to upload a file. And so it's this level of granularity and being able to zoom in and out, um, under your data that allows you to understand what's happening, especially when you have an incident going on, right. Or your really important high profile customer is telling you that something's wrong. And we can do that. Even if everything else in your other tools looks fine, right? All of your dashboards are okay. You're not actually getting paged on it, but your customers are telling you that something's wrong. Uh, and we believe that's where we shine in helping you there. >>Excellent. It sounds like that's where you really shine that real time visibility is so critical these days. Danielle, Danielle, wanna bring you into the conversation. Talk to us a little bit about the honeycomb partnership from the AWS lens. >>Yeah. So excuse me, observability is obviously a very important, uh, segment in the cloud space, very important to AWS, um, because a lot of all of our customers, uh, as they build their systems distributed, they need to be able to see where, where things are happening in the complex systems that they're building. And so honeycomb is a, is an advanced technology partner. Um, they've been working with us for quite some time and they have a, uh, their solution is listed on the marketplace. Um, definitely something that we see a lot of demand with our customers and they have many integrations, uh, which, you know, we've seen is key to success. Um, being able to work seamlessly with the rest of the services inside of the AWS platform. And I know that they've done some, some great things with people who are trying to develop games on top of AWS, uh, things in that area as well. And so, uh, very important partner in the observa observability market that we have >>Back to you, let's kind of unpack the partnership, the significance that honeycomb ha is getting from being partners with an organization as potent and pivotal as AWS. >>Yeah, absolutely. Um, I know this predates me to some extent, but I know for a long time, AWS and honeycomb has really pushed the envelope together. And, um, I think it's a beneficial relationship for both ends. There's kind of two ways of looking at it. On the one side, there is our own infrastructure. So honeycomb runs on AWS and actually one of our critical workloads that supports that fast query engine that I mentioned uses Lambda. And it does so in a pretty Orthodox way. So we've had a longstanding conversation with the AWS team as far as drawing outside those lines and kind of figuring out how to use this technology in a way that works for us and hopefully will work for other customers of theirs as well. Um, that also allows us to ask for early access for certain features when they become available. >>And then that way we can be sort of the Guinea pigs and try things out, um, in a way that migrates our system and optimizes our own performance, but also allows again, other customers of AWS to follow in that path. And then the other side of that partnership is really supporting our customers who are both honeycomb users and AWS users, because it's, as you imagine, quite a big overlap, and there are certain ways in which we can allow our customers to more easily get their data from AWS to honeycomb. So for example, last year we built a tool, um, based on the new Lambda extension capability that allowed our users who run their applications in Lambdas to get that telemetry data out of their applications and into honeycomb. And it man was win, win. >>Excellent. So I'm hearing a lot of synergies from a technology perspective, you're sticking with you, and then Danielle will bring you in, let's talk about how honeycomb supports D and I across its organization. And how is that synergistic with AWS's approach? Yeah, >>Yeah, absolutely. So I sort of alluded to that hesitancy to over index on the women led aspect of ourselves. Um, but again, a lot of things are shifting, we're growing a lot. And so we are recognizing that we need to be more intentional with our DEI initiatives, and we also notice that we can do better and we should do better. And to that, and we're doing a few things differently, um, that are pretty recent initiatives. We are partnering with organizations that help us target specific communities that are underrepresented in tech. Um, some examples would be after tech hu Latinas in tech among, um, a number of others. And another initiative is DEI head start. That's something that is an internal, um, practice that we started that includes reaching out to underrepresented applicants before any new job for honeycomb becomes live. So before we posted to LinkedIn, before it's even live on our job speech, and the idea there is to kind of balance our pipeline of applicants, which the hope is will lead to more diverse hires in the long term. >>That's a great focus there. Danielle, I know we've talked about this before, but for the audience, in terms of the context of the honeycomb partnership, the focus at AWS for D E and I is really significant, unpack that a little bit for us. >>Well, let me just bring it back to just how we think about it, um, with the companies that we work with, but also in, in terms of, you know, what we want to be able to do, excuse me, it's very important for us to, you know, build products that reflect, uh, the customers that we have. And I think, you know, working with, uh, a company like honeycomb that is looking to differentiate in a space, um, by, by bringing in, you know, the experiences of many different types of people I genuinely believe. And I'm sure Vera also believes that by having those diverse perspectives, that we're able to then build better products for our customers. Um, and you know, it's one of, one of our leadership principles, uh, is, is rooted in this. I write a lot, it asks for us to seek out diverse perspectives. Uh, and you can't really do that if everybody kind of looks the same and thinks the same and has the same background. So I think that is where our de and I, um, you know, I thought process is rooted and, you know, companies like honeycomb that give customers choice and differentiate and help them, um, to do what they need to do in their unique, um, environments is super important. So >>The, the importance of thought diversity cannot be underscored enough. It's something that is, can be pivotal to organizations. And it's very nice to hear that that's so fundamental to both companies, Barry, I wanna go back to you for a second. You, I think you mentioned this, the DEI head start program, that's an internal program at honeycomb. Can you shed a little bit of light on that? >>Yeah, that's right. And I actually am in the process of hiring a first engineer for my team. So I'm learning a lot of these things firsthand, um, and how it works is we try to make sure to pre-load our pipeline of applicants for any new job opening we have with diverse candidates to the best of our abilities, and that can involve partnering with the organizations that I mentioned or reaching out to our internal network, um, and make sure that we give those applicants a head start, so to speak. >>Excellent. I like that. Danielle, before we close, I wanna get a little bit of, of your background. We've got various background in tag, she's celebrating her 10th anniversary. Give me a, a short kind of description of the journey that you've navigated through being a female in technology. >>Yeah, thanks so much. I really appreciate, uh, being able to share this. So I started as a software engineer, uh, back actually in the late nineties, uh, during the, the first.com bubble and, uh, have, have spent quite a long time actually as an individual contributor, um, probably working in software engineering teams up through 2014 at a minimum until I joined AWS, uh, as a customer facing solutions architect. Um, I do think spending a lot of time, hands on definitely helped me with some of the imposter syndrome, um, issues that folks suffer from not to say I don't at all, but it, it certainly helped with that. And I've been leading teams at AWS since 2015. Um, so it's really been a great ride. Um, and like I said, I'm very happy to see all of our engineering teams change, uh, as far as their composition. And I'm, I'm grateful to be part of it. >>It's pretty great to be able to witness that composition change for the better last question for each of you. And we're almost out of time and Danielle, I'm gonna stick with you. What's your advice, your recommendations for women who either are thinking about getting into tech or those who may be in tech, maybe they're in individual positions and they're not sure if they should apply for that senior leadership position. What do you advise them to do? >>I mean, definitely for the individual contributors, tech tech is a great career, uh, direction, um, and you will always be able to find women like you, you have to maybe just work a little bit harder, uh, to join, have community, uh, in that. But then as a leader, um, representation is very important and we can bring more women into tech by having more leaders. So that's my, you just have to take the lead, >>Take the lead, love that there. Same question for you. What's your advice and recommendations for those maybe future female leaders in tech? >>Yeah, absolutely. Um, Danielle mentioned imposter syndrome and I think we all struggle with it from time to time, no matter how many years it's been. And I think for me, for me, the advice would be if you're starting out, don't be afraid to ask, uh, questions and don't be afraid to kind of show a little bit of ignorance because we've all been there. And I think it's on all of us to remember what it's like to not know how things work. And on the flip side of that, if you are a more senior IC or, uh, in a leadership role, also being able to model just saying, I don't know how this works and going and figuring out answers together because that was a really powerful shift for me early in my career is just to feel like I can say that I don't know something. >>I totally agree. I've been in that same situation where just ask the question because you I'm guaranteed, there's a million outta people in the room that probably has the, have the same question and because of imposter syndrome, don't wanna admit, I don't understand that. Can we back up, but I agree with you. I think that is, um, one of the best things. Raise your hand, ask a question, ladies. Thank you so much for joining me talking about honeycomb and AWS, what you're doing together from a technology perspective and the focus efforts that each company has on D E and I, we appreciate your insights. Thank you so much for having us great talking to you. My pleasure, likewise for my guests, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the AWS partner showcase women in check. Welcome to the AWS partner showcase I'm Lisa Martin, your host. This is season one, episode three, and this is a great episode that focuses on women in tech. I'm pleased to be joined by Danielle Shaw, the ISV PSA director at AWS, and the sponsor of this fantastic program. Danielle, it's great to see you and talk about such an important topic. >>Yes. And I will tell you, all of these interviews have just been a blast for me to do. And I feel like there has been a lot of gold that we can glean from all of the, um, stories that we heard on these interviews and good advice that I myself would not have necessarily thought of. So >>I agree. And we're gonna get to set, cuz advice is one of the, the main things that our audience is gonna hear. We have Hillary Ashton, you'll see from TETA there, Reynolds joins us from honeycomb, Stephanie Curry from NetApp and Sue Paris from Jefferson Frank. And the topics that we dig into are first and foremost, diversity equity and inclusion. That is a topic that is incredibly important to every organization. And some of the things Danielle that our audiences shared were really interesting to me. One of the things that I saw from a thematic perspective over and over was that like D Reynolds was talking about the importance of companies and hiring managers and how they need to be intentional with de and I initiatives. And that intention was a, a, a common thing that we heard. I'm curious what your thoughts are about that, that we heard about being intentional working intentionally to deliver a more holistic pool of candidates where de I is concerned. What are your, what were some of the things that stuck out to you? >>Absolutely. I think each one of us is working inside of organizations where in the last, you know, five to 10 years, there's been a, you know, a strong push in this direction, mostly because we've really seen, um, first and foremost, by being intentional, that you can change the, uh, the way your organization looks. Um, but also just that, you know, without being intentional, um, there was just a lot of, you know, outcomes and situations that maybe weren't great for, um, you know, a healthy, um, and productive environment, uh, working environment. And so, you know, a lot of these companies have made a big investments and put forth big initiatives that I think all of us are involved in. And so we're really excited to get out here and talk about it and talk about, especially as these are all partnerships that we have, how, you know, these align with our values. So >>Yeah, that, that value alignment mm-hmm <affirmative> that you bring up is another thing that we heard consistently with each of the partners, there's a cultural alignment, there's a customer obsession alignment that they have with AWS. There's a D E and I alignment that they have. And I, I think everybody also kind of agreed Stephanie Curry talked about, you know, it's really important, um, for diversity on it, on, on impacting performance, highly performant teams are teams that are more diverse. I think we heard that kind of echoed throughout the women that we talked to in >>This. Absolutely. And I absolutely, and I definitely even feel that, uh, with their studies out there that tell you that you make better products, if you have all of the right input and you're getting all many different perspectives, but not just that, but I can, I can personally see it in the performing teams, not just my team, but also, you know, the teams that I work alongside. Um, arguably some of the other business folks have done a really great job of bringing more women into their organization, bringing more underrepresented minorities. Tech is a little bit behind, but we're trying really hard to bring that forward as well to in technical roles. Um, but you can just see the difference in the outcomes. Uh, at least I personally can just in the adjacent teams of mine. >>That's awesome. We talked also quite a bit during this episode about attracting women and underrepresented, um, groups and retaining them. That retention piece is really key. What were some of the things that stuck out to you that, um, you know, some of the guests talked about in terms of retention? >>Yeah. I think especially, uh, speaking with Hillary and hearing how, uh, Teradata is thinking about different ways to make hybrid work work for everybody. I think that is definitely when I talk to women interested in joining AWS, oftentimes that might be one of the first, uh, concerns that they have. Like, am I going to be able to, you know, go pick my kid up at four o'clock at the bus, or am I going to be able to, you know, be at my kids' conf you know, conference or even just, you know, have enough work life balance that I can, um, you know, do the things that I wanna do outside of work, uh, beyond children and family. So these are all very important, um, and questions that especially women come and ask, but also, um, you know, it kind of is a, is a bellwether for, is this gonna be a company that allows me to bring my whole self to work? And then I'm also gonna be able to have that balance that I need need. So I think that was something that is, uh, changing a lot. And many people are thinking about work a lot differently. >>Absolutely. The pandemic not only changed how we think about work, you know, initially it was, do I work from home or do I live at work? And that was legitimately a challenge that all of us faced for a long time period, but we're seeing the hybrid model. We're seeing more companies be open to embracing that and allowing people to have more of that balance, which at the end of the day, it's so much better for product development for the customers, as you talked about there's, it's a win-win. >>Absolutely. And, you know, definitely the first few months of it was very hard to find that separation to be able to put up boundaries. Um, but I think at least I personally have been able to find the way to do it. And I hope that, you know, everyone is getting that space to be able to put those boundaries up to effectively have a harmonious, you know, work life where you can still be at home most of the time, but also, um, you know, have that cutoff point of the day or at least have that separate space that you can feel that you're able to separate the two. >>Yeah, absolutely. And a lot of that from a work life balance perspective leads into one of the next topics that we covered in detail with, and that's mentors and sponsors the differences between them recommendations from, uh, the women on the panel about how to combat imposter syndrome, but also how to leverage mentors and sponsors throughout your career. One of the things that, that Hillary said that I thought was fantastic, advice were mentors and sponsors are concerned is, is be selective in picking your bosses. We often see people, especially younger folks, not necessarily younger folks. I shouldn't say that that are attracted to a company it's brand maybe, and think more about that than they do the boss or bosses that can help guide them along the way. But I thought that was really poignant advice that Hillary provided something that I'm gonna take into consideration myself. >>Yeah. And I honestly hadn't thought about that, but as I reflect through my own career, I can see how I've had particular managers who have had a major impact on helping me, um, with my career. But, you know, if you don't have the ability to do that, or maybe that's not a luxury that you have, I think even if you're able to, you know, find a mentor for a period of time or, um, you know, just, just enable for you to be able to get from say a point a to point B just for a temporary period. Um, just so you can grow into your next role, have a, have a particular outcome that you wanna drive, have a particular goal in mind find that person who's been there and done that and can really help you get through. If you don't have the luxury of picking your manager mentor, who can help you get to the next step. >>Exactly. That, that I thought that advice was brilliant and something that I hadn't really considered either. We also talked with several of the women about imposter syndrome. You know, that's something that everybody, I think, regardless of gender of your background, everybody feels that at some point. So I think one of the nice things that we do in this episode is sort of identify, yes, imposter syndrome is real. This is, this is how it happened to me. This is I navigated around or got over it. I think there's some great advice there for the audience to glean as well about how to dial down the imposter syndrome that they might be feeling. >>Absolutely. And I think the key there is just acknowledging it. Um, but also just hearing all the different techniques on, on how folks have dealt with it because everybody does, um, you know, even some of the smartest, most confident men I've, I've met in, uh, industry still talk to me about how they have it and I'm shocked by it oftentimes, but, um, it is very common and hopefully we, we talk about some good techniques to, to deal with that. >>I think we do, you know, one of the things that when we were asking the, our audience, our guests about advice, what would they tell their younger selves? What would they tell young women or underrepresented groups in terms of becoming interested in stem and in tech and everybody sort of agreed on me, don't be afraid to raise your hand and ask questions. Um, show vulnerabilities, not just as the employee, but even from a leadership perspective, show that as a leader, I, I don't have all the answers. There are questions that I have. I think that goes a long way to reducing the imposter syndrome that most of us have faced at some point in our lives. And that's just, don't be afraid to ask questions. You never know, oh, how can people have the same question sitting in the room? >>Well, and also, you know, for folks who've been in industry for 20, 25 years, I think we can just say that, you know, it's a, it's a marathon, it's not a sprint and you're always going to, um, have new things to learn and you can spend, you know, back to, we talked about the zing and zagging through careers, um, where, you know, we'll have different experiences. Um, all of that kind of comes through just, you know, being curious and wanting to continue to learn. So yes, asking questions and being vulnerable and being able to say, I don't know all the answers, but I wanna learn is a key thing, uh, especially culturally at AWS, but I'm sure with all of these companies as well, >>Definitely I think it sounded like it was really ingrained in their culture. And another thing too, that we also talked about is the word, no, doesn't always mean a dead end. It can often mean not right now or may, maybe this isn't the right opportunity at this time. I think that's another important thing that the audience is gonna learn is that, you know, failure is not necessarily a bad F word. If you turn it into opportunity, no isn't necessarily the end of the road. It can be an opener to a different door. And I, I thought that was a really positive message that our guests, um, had to share with the, the audience. >>Yeah, totally. I can, I can say I had a, a mentor of mine, um, a very, uh, strong woman who told me, you know, your career is going to have lots of ebbs and flows and that's natural. And you know that when you say that, not right now, um, that's a perfect example of maybe there's an ebb where it might not be the right time for you now, but something to consider in the future. But also don't be afraid to say yes, when you can. <laugh> >>Exactly. Danielle, it's been a pleasure filming this episode with you and the great female leaders that we have on. I'm excited for the audience to be able to learn from Hillary Vera, Stephanie Sue, and you so much valuable content in here. We hope you enjoy this partner showcase season one, episode three, Danielle, thanks so much for helping >>Us with it's been a blast. I really appreciate it >>All audience. We wanna enjoy this. Enjoy the episode.

(upbeat music) >> Hey everyone. Welcome to the AWS partner showcase. This is season one, episode three. And I'm your host, Lisa Martin. I've got two great guests here with me to talk about Women in Tech. Hillary Ashton joins us, the chief product officer at Teradata, and Danielle Greshock is back with us, the ISV PSA director at AWS Ladies. It's great to have you on the program talking through such an important topic. Hillary, let's go ahead and start with you. Give us a little bit of an intro into you, your background and a little bit about Teradata. >> Yeah, absolutely. So I'm Hillary Ashton. I head up the products organization. So that's our engineering, product management, officer of the CTO team at Teradata. I've been with Teradata for just about three years and really have spent the last several decades, if I can say that in the data and analytics space. I spent time really focused on the value of analytics at scale, and I'm super excited to be here at Teradata. I'm also a mom of two teenage boys. And so as we talk about women in tech, I think there's lots of different dimensions and angles of that. At Teradata we are partnered very deeply with AWS and happy to talk a little bit more about that throughout this discussion as well. >> Excellent. A busy mom of two teen boys. My goodness. I don't know how you do it. Let's now look at Teradata's views of diversity, equity and inclusion. It's a topic that's important to everyone but give us a snapshot into some of the initiatives that Teradata has there. >> Yeah, I have to say, I am super proud to be working at Teradata. We have gone through a series of transformations but I think it starts with culture and we are deeply committed to diversity, equity and inclusion. It's really more than just a statement here. It's just how we live our lives. And we use data to back that up. In fact, we were named one of the world's most ethical companies for the 13th year in a row. And all of our executive leadership team has taken an oath around DE&I, that's available on LinkedIn as well. So in fact, our leadership team reporting into the CEO is just about 50/50 men and women which is the first time I've worked in a company where that has been the case. And I think as individuals, we can probably appreciate what a huge difference that makes in terms of not just being a representative, but truly being on a diverse and equitable team. And I think it really improves the behaviors that we can bring to our office. >> There's so much value in that. It's I impressive to see about a 50/50 at the leadership level. That's not something that we see very often. Tell me how you, Hillary, how did you get into tech? Were you an engineering person by computer science or did you have more of a zigzaggy path to where you are now? >> I'm going to pick door number two and say more zigzaggy. I started off thinking that, I started off as a political science major or a government major and I was probably destined to go into the law field but actually took a summer course at Harvard, I did not go to Harvard, but I took a summer course there and learned a lot about multimedia and some programming. And that really set me on a trajectory of how data and analytics can truly provide value and outcomes to our customers. And I have been living that life ever since I graduated from college. So I was very excited and privileged in my early career to work in a company where I found after my first year that I was managing kids, people who had graduated from Harvard Business School and from MIT Sloan School. And that was super crazy 'cause I did not go to either of those schools but I sort of have always had a natural knack for how do you take technology and the really cool things that technology can do, but because I'm not a programmer by training, I'm really focused on the value that I'm able to help organizations really extract value from the technology that we can create, which I think is fantastic. >> I think there's so much value in having a zigzag path into tech. You bring... Danielle, you and I have talked about this many times, you bring such breadth and such a wide perspective that really is such a value add to teams. Danielle, talk to us from AWS's perspective about what can be done to encourage more young women to get, and underrepresented groups as well to get into STEM and stay. >> Yeah, and this is definitely a challenge as we're trying to grow our organization and kind of shift the numbers. And the reality is, especially with the more senior folks in our organization, unless you bring folks with a zigzag path, the likelihood is you won't be able to change the numbers that you have. But for me, it's really been about looking at that, the folks who are just graduating college, maybe in other roles where they are adjacent to technology and to try to spark their interest and show that, yes, they can do it because oftentimes it's really about believing in themselves and realizing that we need folks with all sorts of different perspectives to kind of come in to be able to help really provide both products and services and solutions for all types of people inside of technology which requires all sorts of perspectives. >> Yeah, the diverse perspectives. There's so much value and there's a lot of data that demonstrates how much value, revenue impact organizations can make by having diversity especially at the leadership level. Hillary, let's go back to you. We talked about your career path. You talked about some of the importance of the focus on DE&I at Teradata, but what do you think can be done to encourage, sorry, to recruit more young women and under represented groups into tech, any carrots there that you think are really important that we need to be dangling more of? >> Yeah, absolutely. And I'll build on what Danielle just said. I think the bringing in diverse understandings of customer outcomes, I mean, we've really moved from technology for technology's sake. And I know AWS and Entirety have had a lot of conversations on how do we drive customer outcomes that are differentiated in the market and really being customer-centric. And technology is wonderful. You can do wonderful things with it. You can do not so wonderful things with it as well but unless you're really focused on the outcomes and what customers are seeking technology is not hugely valuable. And so I think bringing in people who understand voice of customer, who understand those outcomes and those are not necessarily the folks who are PhD in mathematics or statistics, those can be people who understand a day in the life of a data scientist or a day in the life of a citizen data scientist. And so really working to bridge the high impact technology with the practical kind of usability, usefulness of data and analytics in our cases, I think is something that we need more of in tech and sort of demystifying tech and freeing technology so that everybody can use it and having a really wide range of people who understand not just the bits and bites and and how to program, but also the value and outcomes that technology through data and analytics can drive. >> Yeah. You know, we often talk about the hard skills but the soft skills are equally, if not more important that even just being curious, being willing to ask questions being not afraid to be vulnerable, being able to show those sides of your personality. I think those are important for young women and underrepresented groups to understand that those are just as important as some of the harder technical skills that can be taught. >> That's right. >> What do you think about from a bias perspective, Hillary, what have you seen in the tech industry and how do you think we can leverage culture as you talked about to help dial down some of the biases that are going on? >> Yeah. I mean, I think first of all, and there's some interesting data out there that says that 90% of the population, which includes a lot of women have some inherent bias in their day to day behaviors when it comes to women in particular. But I'm sure that that is true across all kinds of of diverse and underrepresented folks in the world. And so I think acknowledging that we have bias and actually really learning what that can look like, how that can show up, we might be sitting here and thinking, oh, of course I don't have any bias. And then you realize that as you learn more about different types of bias that actually you do need to kind of account for that and change behaviors. And so I think learning is sort of a fundamental grounding for all of us to really know what bias looks like, know how it shows up in each of us, if we're leaders, know how it shows up in our teams and make sure that we are constantly getting better. We're not going to be perfect anytime soon, but I think being on a path to improvement to overcoming bias is really critical. And part of that is really starting the dialogue, having the conversations, holding ourselves and each other accountable when things aren't going in a copesthetic way, and being able to talk openly about that felt like maybe there was some bias in that interaction and how do we make good on that? How do we change our behavior fundamentally. Of course, data and analytics can have some bias in it as well. And so I think as we look at the technology aspect of bias, looking at at ethical AI I think is a really important additional area. And I'm sure we could spend another 20 minutes talking about that, but I would be remiss if I didn't talk more about sort of the bias and the opportunity to overcome bias in data and analytics as well. >> Yeah. The opportunity to overcome it is definitely there, you bring up a couple of really good points, Hillary. It starts with awareness. We need to be aware that there are inherent biases in data in thought. And also to your other point, hold people accountable, ourselves, our teammates that's critical to being able to dial that back down. Danielle, I want to get your perspective on your view of women in leadership roles. Do you think that we have good representation or we still have work to do in there? >> I definitely think in both technical and product roles we definitely have some work to do. And when I think about our partnership with Teradata, part of the reason why it's so important is, Teradata solution is really the brains of a lot of companies, what they differentiate on, how they figure out insights into their business. And it's all about the product itself and the data, and the same is true at AWS. And we really could do some work to have some more women in these technical roles as well as in the product, shaping the products, just for all the reasons that we just kind of talked about over the last 10 minutes in order to move bias out of our solutions and also to just build better products and have better outcomes for customers. So I think there's a bit of work to do still. >> I agree. There's definitely a bit of work to do and it's all about delivering those better outcomes for customers at the end of the day. We need to figure out what the right ways are of doing that and working together in a community. We've had obviously a lot had changed in the last couple of years. Hillary, what have you seen in terms of the impact that the pandemic has had on this status of women in tech? Has it been a pro, is silver lining, the opposite? What are you seeing? >> Yeah, I mean, certainly there's data out there that tells us factually that it has been very difficult for women during COVID-19. Women have dropped out of the workforce for a wide range of reasons. And that I think is going to set us back all of us, the Royal us or the Royal we back years and years. And it's very unfortunate because I think we're at a time when we're making great progress and now to see COVID setting us back in such a powerful way I think there's work to be done to understand how do we bring people back into the workforce? How do we do that understanding work life balance better, understanding virtual and remote working better. I think in the technology sector we've really embraced hybrid virtual work and are empowering people to bring their whole selves to work. And I think if anything, these Zoom calls have, both for the men and the women on my team. In fact, I would say much more so for the men on my team, we're seeing more kids in the background, more kind of split childcare duties, more ability to start talking about other responsibilities that maybe they had, especially in the early days of COVID where maybe day cares were shut down and maybe a parent was sick. And so we saw quite a lot of people bringing their whole selves to the office which I think was really wonderful. Even our CEO saw some of that. And I think that that really changes the dialogue. It changes it to maybe scheduling meetings at a time when people can do it after daycare drop off and really allowing that both for men and for women, makes it better for women overall. So I would like to think that this hybrid working environment and that this whole view into somebody's life that COVID has really provided for, probably for white collar workers, if I'm being honest for people who are at a better point of privilege, they don't necessarily have to go into the office every day. I would like to think that tech can lead the way in coming out of the old COVID, I don't know if we have a new COVID coming, but the old COVID and really leading the way for women and for people to transform how we do work, leveraging data and analytics but also overcoming some of the disparities that exist for women in particular in the workforce. >> Yeah, I think there's, like we say, there's a lot of opportunity there and I like your point of hopefully tech can be that guiding light that shows us this can be done. We're all humans at the end of the day. And ultimately, if we're able to have some sort of work life balance, everything benefits. Our work, we're more productive, higher performing teams impacts customers. There's so much value that can be gleaned from that hybrid model and embracing for humans. We need to be able to work when we can. We've learned that you don't have to be in an office 24/7 commuting crazy hours, flying all around the world. We can get a lot of things done in ways that fit people's lives rather than taking command over it. I want to get your advice, Hillary, if you were to talk to your younger self, what would be some of the key pieces of advice you would say? And Danielle and I have talked about this before, and sometimes we would both agree on like, ask more questions, don't be afraid to raise your hand, but what advice would you give your younger self and that younger generation in terms of being inspired to get into tech? >> Oh, inspired in being in tech. I think looking at technology as, in some ways I feel like we do a disservice to inclusion when we talk about STEM, 'cause I think stem can be kind of daunting, it can be a little scary for people, for younger people. When I go and talk to folks at schools, I think STEM is like, oh, all the super smart kids are over there. They're all, like maybe they're all men. And so it's a little intimidating. And STEM is actually, especially for people joining the workforce today, it's actually how you've been living your life since you were born. I mean, you know STEM inside and out because you walk around with a phone and you know how to get your internet working and like that is technology fundamentally. And so demystifying STEM as something that is around how we actually make our our lives useful and how we can change outcomes through technology, I think is maybe a different lens to put on it. And there's absolutely, for hard scientists, there's absolutely a great place in the world for folks who want to pursue that, and men and women can do that. So I don't want to be setting the wrong expectations but I think STEM is very holistic in the change that's happening globally for us today across economies, across global warming, across all kinds of impactful issues. And so I think everybody who's interested in some of that world change can participate in STEM. It just may be through a different lens than how we classically talk about STEM. So I think there's great opportunity to demystify STEM. I think also what I would tell my younger self is choose your bosses wisely. And that sounds really funny. That sounds like inside out almost but I think choose the person that you're going to work for in your first five to seven years. And it might be more than one person, but be selective. Maybe be a little less selective about the exact company or the exact title. I think picking somebody that, we talk about mentors and we talk about sponsors and those are important, but the person you're going to spend in your early career, a lot of your day with, who's going to influence a lot of the outcomes for you. That is the person that you, I think want to be more selective about because that person can set you up for success and give you opportunities and set you on course to be a standout or that person can hold you back and that person can put you in the corner and not invite you to the meetings and not give you those opportunities. And so we're in an economy today where you actually can be a little bit picky about who you go and work for. And I would encourage my younger self, I just lucked out actually, but I think that my first boss really set me up for success, gave me a lot of feedback and coaching. And some of it was really hard to hear but it really set me up for the path that I've been on ever since. So that would be my advice. >> I love that advice. It's brilliant. And I think it, choose your bosses wisely, isn't something that we primarily think about. I think a lot of people think about the big name companies that they want to go after and put on a resume, but you bring up a great point. And Danielle and I have talked about this with other guests about mentors and sponsors. I think that is brilliant advice, and also more work to do to demystify STEM. But luckily we have great female leaders like the two of you helping us to do that. Ladies, I want to thank you so much for joining me on the program today and talking through what you're seeing in DE&I, what your companies are doing and the opportunities that we have to move the needle. Appreciate your time. >> Thank you so much. Great to see you, Danielle. Thank you, Lisa. >> Nice to see you. >> My pleasure. For my guests, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the AWS partner showcase season one, episode three. (upbeat music)

(bright music) >> You know, there's a lot of negative press around the technology industry these days. The tech lash is somewhat understandable, people are struggling and yet the tech industry is booming, creating incredible wealth for a relatively select group of people. I get it. But the reality is, that the technology industry has guided us through the pandemic, allowing us to work remotely, securing our employees, keeping goods and services flowing, and using data and analytics to track COVID and accelerate the development of vaccines. And many in the tech industry are passionate about giving back and applying their talents to solve real world problems. I'll give you an example. After accidents, cancer is the number one cause of death among young people. In the middle of the 20th century, the survival rate for kids with cancer was 0.0%. Today, it's above 85%. Cancer in kids is much different than in adults. The types of cancer, the diagnoses, the treatments, they vary. Different types of research are required to attack the problem. And that takes money. And one of the people here in Boston and beyond that's using his talents, his creativity, his network, and yeah, his wealth, to attack this problem, is my friend, Chris Lynch, entrepreneur, investor, and philanthropist. Chris, awesome to see ya. Welcome back to theCUBE my friend. >> Thanks, Dave. It's great to be here. >> So, listen, this personal story of yours, how'd you get into, where's the passion come from for kids with cancer? >> Dave, it's actually related to one of my startup endeavors. When you're starting, bootstrapping your company, you're typically staying at people's homes to save money. >> Sleeping on couches. Yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. Pretty much. And for the years of these startups, I've developed relationships with families all over the world, 'cause I've literally lived with them for periods of time until the companies got to points where we didn't have to do that. And there was a family in Seattle that I used to stay with, and they had a son that was a similar age to one of mine and he ultimately passed of cancer. And I stayed with the family, and I stayed with them a few times while they were going through this, and I was touched, I was inspired by their courage, how positive they were. I was thinking in my own circumstance, how could I, I would just hate the world. And in these families, I stay there, they call me Uncle Chris. And I was having dinner at the family home and I was looking at the boy, and I excused myself, went to the bathroom and I started sobbing, and he knocks on the door, comes in and says, "Uncle Chris, it's okay. My dad tells me you can do anything. Just do whatever you can so that other kids don't have what I have." You know and... >> Wow. Wow. And I can see the emotion that you're feeling right now, bringing us back to that moment. >> Well. Yeah. >> It's unbelievable. All right, so you got Tech Tackles Cancer. Is this your latest venture? I think the last one was 2018. It's coming back, took a break 'cause of COVID, and this is going to go down on the 21st at The Sinclair in Harvard Square. Bring a bunch of people in. We got a number of people who have signed up to, actually you're one of them, of course, but to sing karaoke, raise a bunch of dough, and then there's like a little contest, right? So... (he chuckles) Alex, bring up that slide. I got to show the audience who we got here. And this is, Chris, this is your competition. So, here you go. We got, Steve Duplessie, right? That's a great picture, Steve. Thanks for doing this, right. Nathan Hall, who's at Pure Storage. Steiny, Ken Steinhardt, from INFINIDAT. And you got George Hope at HPE. And Joe Lemay, who's an inventor, he's the CEO of Rocketbook. Any of these guys worry you? >> I'm going to sleep easy tonight. (Dave laughs) >> So, how did you get into rock and roll? You wrote a blog one time. You quoted Nietzsche saying that life without music would be a mistake. Rock and roll. Rock on. How'd you get into rock and what's your passion there? >> Well, I always loved rock and roll but I had someone that was staying with us who was a student at BU, and he went to his semester abroad, he went to the UK. And he came back with all this punk rock music, the Sex Pistols and all this stuff. And I heard it and it just triggered something in me. And then I didn't want to do anything but play music and try to be a musician, and my grades and everything else suffered as a result. But music's always inspired me, the creativity, the boldness. A lot of things that I think I apply to my startup life. >> How could people help? Let's say they want to get involved. I mean, obviously, they can attend the event, they donate. What should people do? They could sing? >> Yeah. So they can certainly sponsor the event. There are a number of sponsorship opportunities. They can participate. They can volunteer for the event. It is an all-volunteer organization. Every dollar that we raise goes to the charities that we've listed. And we handle everything else through a lot of arm twisting and whatnot. >> Great. So it's June 24th, sorry, June 21st, at The Sinclair, which is right in Harvard Square. So it's live band karaoke, right? >> Correct. >> I've seen some of the, we're going to share a little clip there. And so, it's a call to action to all you rock and roll technology gods out there. You know, we showed you the five folks plus Chris who were doing it, and so we're dying to see you up there again, you must be really excited about it. >> I am, I am. I'm going to be much better than last time. >> Okay. Well, so just on that note we'll close with a little taste of what's in store for June 21st. We'll see you there. ♪ Now my loneliness ♪ ♪ Is killing me now ♪ ♪ You know I still believe ♪ ♪ Midnight, midnight to six ♪ ♪ Midnight, midnight to six ♪ ♪ Midnight, midnight to six ♪ ♪ Believe in things that you don't understand ♪ ♪ then you're su... ♪ (bright music)

(upbeat music) >> On June 21st in Cambridge mass at the Sinclair in Harvard Square, Tech Tackles Cancer is back after a COVID hiatus with live band karaoke and some local tech celebrities raising money for a great cause. The Cube is a media sponsor of the event and Josh Epstein, local marketing exec and one of the events organizers is here to tell us more. Josh, good to see you, welcome. >> Good to be here, Dave. >> So tell us about this event. What's going on? What are the logistics? How's that all work? >> Yeah, we're super excited. So as you said, June 21st at the Sinclair in Harvard Square, Sinclair, if you haven't been there is just the great old school rock club. So we'll be there from 6:00 to 10:00. We will have live band karaoke. So the main event and kind of the primary fundraising approach here is that we have some celebrity technology rock gods these featured performers like Chris Lynch who was the founder of Tech Tackles Cancer, who are are raising money from basically now, up until June 21st. Then at the event, their fundraising will culminate with them singing a live song backed by a live band. And the awards will be given out to the most money raised, the best performance and the best stage presence. So it will be a lot of fun. >> So the fundraising format is I sign up to sing do the karaoke with a live band which is a little bit different. And then I raise as much dough as possible. So obviously that's competitive. >> It's competitive, I think that we ask for a minimum of $10,000 targeted for each of the fundraisers but knowing these guys, knowing guys like Chris Lynch, they don't like to lose. So the bet here is that people are going to go out, they're going to hit their network and they are going to look to kind of raise the most money. So we anticipate this to be a great event with a lot of money raised and a lot of fun. >> So we have a graphic from Alex. If you could bring that up of the people who have signed up for this already. We got Steve Duplessie, founder of of ESG, senior analyst. They sold their company to Tech Target, which is awesome. Congratulations to those guys and thank you for stepping up. George Hope, who heads partner sales for HPE, Joe Lemay of Rocketbook Nathan Hall from Pure Storage, system engineering guy and of course, Steiny, Ken Steinhardt from Infinidat. He was at EMC, he's the field CTO now. He's going to be up there singing. So of course, Chris. >> Absolutely, these are just the early entrance here. So we just started really working our networks. And obviously, I'm a Boston tech guy kind of working the storage networks, the networking networks and kind of the other folks that are around. So as we come out of stealth here in April and start really recruiting, we anticipate having probably 10 to 15 of these featured performers, really fundraising performers that we'll sing. And then we're also obviously soliciting broader donations from anyone who wants to come to the event or just give to the cause and the corporate sponsorships as well. >> All right, so you got corporate sponsorships. You can sing, you can donate you can be there just to support it. That's fantastic and the awards, how's that work? >> Yeah, so we're excited. So first off, most money raised wins an award. So we'll have a leaderboard on the website, we'll be able to kind of track who's raised what, at the event, we're going to have some celebrity judges that will be actually voting for their favorites and then have a crowdsource component as well. So we'll introduce what that mechanism is. But as people, either at the events or a watching in streamed live on LinkedIn live, we'll actually vote for their favorite performance as well as their their pick for best stage presence which we know in rock and roll is half the battle. >> Now this cause has raised a bunch of, I think last time, you guys did this, it was probably a quarter million or close to it and you support multiple causes. What causes are you supporting? >> Sure, yeah, actually I think since they founded the event several years ago they raised over $2 million. This year for this format where we're looking, we can really up our game here but this year we're supporting two really great causes that are both focused on pediatric cancer. The first is St. Batrick's that is really committed to raising funds for research to really help stamp out pediatric cancer really. The approach to researching cures and treatments to pediatric cancer is very different from regular adult cancer. So St. Batrick's does a great job of picking those research projects that really target in on those pediatric cancer causes. And then the second is one mission. And one mission really outlooks to help make pediatric cancer patients that are spending time in the hospital, making their time less stressful, less painful, less sad, less boring. And so they do a lot of fundraising and contributions targeting children's hospitals, really around the country for those pediatric cancer floors. >> Josh, amazing cause. Thanks so much for coming onto the Cube and explaining all that. >> Great, thanks David. >> All right, June 21st, go to ttcfund.org, Tech Tackles Cancer fund, ttcffund.org for more information and you can donate. We'll see you there. (soft music)

[Music] you know there's a lot of negative press around the technology industry these days the tech lash that's somewhat understandable people are struggling and yet the tech industry is booming creating incredible wealth for a relatively select group of people i get it but the reality is that the technology industry has guided us through the pandemic allowing us to work remotely securing our employees keeping goods and services flowing and using data and analytics to track covet and accelerate the development of vaccines and many in the tech industry are passionate about giving back and applying their talents to solve real world problems i'll give an example after accidents cancer is the number one cause of death among young people in the middle of the 20th century the survival rate for kids with cancer was 0.0 percent today it's above 85 percent cancer in kids is a much different than in adults the types of cancer the diagnoses the treatments they vary different types of research are required to attack the problem and that takes money and one of the people here in boston and beyond that's using his talents his creativity his network and yeah his wealth to attack this problem is my friend chris lynch entrepreneur investor and philanthropist chris awesome to see you welcome back to thecube my friend thanks dave it's great to be here so listen this personal story of yours how did you get into where's the passion come from for kids with cancer dave it's actually related to one of my startup endeavors when you're starting bootstrapping company you're typically staying at people's homes and you know to save money sleeping on couches yeah yeah pretty much and um you know through the years of these startups i've developed relationships with families all over the world you know because i've literally lived with them you know for periods of time until the companies get to points where we didn't have to do that and um there was a family in seattle that i used to stay with and they had a son that was a similar age to one of mine and he ultimately passed of cancer and i stayed with the family and i stayed with them a few times while they were going through this and i was touched i was inspired by their courage how positive they were i was thinking in my own circumstance how could i i would just hate the world and you know in the you know in these families i stay there you know they call me uncle chris and um i was having dinner at the you know at the family home and i was looking at the boy and uh i excused myself went to the to the bathroom and i started sobbing and um he knocks on the door comes comes in and says uncle chris it's okay my dad tells me you can do anything just do whatever you can so that other kids don't have what i have you know in it wow wow and i can see the emotion that you're feeling right now bringing bringing us back to that moment it's it's unbelievable and and the thing is when you started st baldrick's it wasn't it was obviously about the kids but it was also about the family as well right because they're going through right i mean you know we all know as parents how hard it is to be a parent can you imagine having a parent that's you know got a disease like that so it's not just about you know the the cancer and the research it's about the supporting the families as well right that's right and that's why one mission is you know one one of our um you know big beneficiaries you know of of the work we do um because it's obviously we want to find cures um but people you know families are affected every day and we need to provide them the kind of support um you know that that they any child should have and any family should have in this circumstance all right so you got tech tackles cancer this is your latest venture i think the last one was uh 2018. it's coming back took a break because of covid obviously uh but so it's live band karaoke it's the tech industry your network and beyond really kind of giving back how does that all work well basically you know we we once i learned that pediatric cancer was different and that there was it was underfunded we wanted to raise awareness for that we wanted to raise funds to take a different approach applying sort of venture principles how i invest in companies and find the best research in the world which is not in any four walls of any sort of research center so we get the best research from around the world and that we decided to put the money invest the money as well as the support services around those that you know are affected today yeah okay so we've got actually so what's going to happen and this is going to go down on the the 21st at the sinclair and harvard square bring a bunch of people in we've got a number of people who have signed up to actually you're one of them of course but to to sing karaoke raise a bunch of dough and then there's a little contest right no alex bring up that slide i gotta i gotta show the audience who we got here this is chris this is your competition uh so here you go you got we got steve duplessi right he has great picture steve thanks for doing this right nathan hall who's at pure storage steiny ken steinhardt from infinidat and you got george hope at hpe and joe lemay who's uh he's inventor he's a ceo a rocket book any of these guys where are you i'm going to sleep easy tonight [Laughter] how did you get into rock and roll you wrote a blog one time you you quoted nietzsche is saying that life without music would be a mistake you know rock and roll rock on how did you get into rock and roll well i always loved rock and roll but i had that was staying with us he was a student at bu and he he went to his semester abroad he went to the uk and he came back with all this punk rock music the sex pistols and all the stuff and um i heard it and it just triggered something in me and that i didn't want to do anything but play music and you know try to be a musician and um you know my grades and everything else suffered as a result but music's always inspired me the creativity the boldness a lot of things that i think i apply to my startup life how can people help let's say they want to get involved i mean obviously they can attend the event they donate what what should people do they could sing yeah so they could they could certainly sponsor the event there are a number of sponsorship opportunities um they can participate they can volunteer for the event it is an all volunteer organization every dollar that we raise goes to the charities that we've listed um and we handle everything else through a lot of arm twisting and you know and whatnot great so it's june 24th uh sorry june 21st at the sinclair which is right in harvard square so it's live band karaoke right i've seen some of the we're gonna share a little a little a little clip there and so it's a call to action to all you you rock and roll technology gods out there you know we showed you the the five folks plus chris who were doing it um and so we're dying to to see you up there again you must be really excited about it i am i am i'm going to be much better than last time okay well so just on that note we'll close with a little taste of what's in store for june 21st we'll see you there [Music] midnight midnight midnight midnight six midnight midnight six things that you don't understand in yourself [Music] you

>>Welcome back to the cubes coverage of women in data science, 2022. We've been live all day at Stanford at the Arriaga alumni center. Lisa Martin, John furrier joins me next, trying to, to cure your FOMO that you have. >>I love this events. My favorite events is 2015. We've been coming, growing community over 60 countries, 500 ambassadors and growing so many members. Widths has become a global phenomenon. And it's so exciting to be part of just being part of the ride. Judy and Karen, the team have been amazing partners and it's been fun to watch the progression and international women's day is tomorrow. And just the overall environment's changed a lot since then. It's gotten better. I'm still a lot more work to do, but we're getting the word out, but this year seems different. It seems more like a tipping point is happening and real-time cultural change. A lot of problems. COVID pulled forward. A lot of things, there's a war going on in Europe. It's just really weird time. And it's just seems like it's a tipping point. >>I think that's what we felt today was that it was a tipping point. There was a lot of our guests on the program that are first time with attendees. So in seven, just seven short years, this is the seventh annual width it's gone from this one day technical conference to this global movement, as you talked about. And I think that we definitely felt that women of all ages and men that are here as well understand we're at that tipping point and what needs to be done next to push it over the edge. >>Well, I'm super excited that you are able to do all the amazing interviews. I watched some of them online. I had to come by and, and join the team because I have FOMO. I love doing the interviews, but they're including me. I'm happy to be included, but I got to ask you, I mean, what was different this year? Because it was interesting. It's a hybrid event. It's in part, they didn't have it in person last year, right? So it's hybrid. I showed the streams where everywhere good interviews, what was some of the highlights? >>Just a very inspiring stories of women who really this morning's conversation that I got to hear before I came to set was about mentors and sponsors and how important it is for women of any age and anybody really to build their own personal board of directors with mentors and sponsors. And they were very clear in the difference between a mentor and a sponsor and John something. I didn't understand the difference between the two until a few years ago. I think it was at a VMware event and it really surprised me that I have mentors do ask sponsors. And so that was a discussion that everybody on this onset talked about. >>It was interesting. We're doing also the international women's day tomorrow, big 24 interviews, including the winds of content, as well as global women leaders around the world and to new J Randori, who runs all of AWS, Amy are your maps. And she told me the same thing. She's like, there's too many mentors, not enough sponsors. And she said that out loud. I felt, wow. That was a defining moment because he or she is so impressive. Worked at McKinsey, okay. Was an operator in, in running businesses. Now she heads up AWS saying out loud, we have too many mentors, this get down to business and get sponsors. And I asked her the same thing and she said, sponsors, create opportunities. Mentors, give feedback. And mentors go both ways. And she said, my S my teenage son is a mentor to me for some of the cool new stuff, but ventures can go both ways. Sponsors is specifically about opportunities, and I'm like, I felt like that comment hit home. >>It's so important, but it's also important to teach girls. And especially the there's younger girls here this year, there's high school and middle, I think even middle school girls here, how to have the confidence to, to find those mentors, those sponsors and cultivate those relationships. That's a whole, those are skills that are incredibly important, as important as it is to understand AI data science, machine learning. It's to be able to, to have the confidence in a capability to create that and find those sponsors to help you unlock those opportunities. >>You know, I feel lucky to do the interviews, certainly being included as a male, but you've been doing a lot of the interviews as females and females. I got to ask you what was the biggest, because every story is different. Some people will it's about taking charge of their career. Sometimes it's maybe doing something different. What some of the story themes did you see in your interviews out there? What were some of the, the coverings personal? Yeah. >>Yeah. A lot of, a lot of the guests had stem backgrounds and were interested in the stem studies from when they were quite young and had strong family backgrounds that helps to nurture that. I >>Also heard that role models. Yes, >>Exactly, exactly. A strong family backgrounds. I did talk to a few women who come from different backgrounds, like international business and, but loved data and wanted to be able to apply that and really learn data analytics and understand data science and understand the opportunities that, that it brings. And also some of the challenges there. Everybody had an inspiring story. >>Yeah. It's interesting. One of the senior women I interviewed, she was from Singapore and she fled India during a bombing war and then ended up getting her PhD. Now she's in space and weld and all that stuff. And she said, we're now living in nerd, native environment, me and the younger generation they're nerds. And I, you know, were at Stanford dirt nation. Of course we're Stanford, it's nerd nerd nation here. But her point is, is that everything's digital now. So the younger generation, they're not necessarily looking for programmers, certainly coding. Great. But if you're not into coding, you can still solve society problems. There's plenty of jobs that are open for the first time that weren't around years ago, which means there's problems that are new to that need new minds and new, fresh perspectives. So I thought that aperture of surface area of opportunities to contribute in women in tech is not just coding. No, and that was a huge, >>That was, and we also, this morning, I got to hear, and we've talked about, we talked with several of the women before the event about data science in healthcare, data science, in transportation equity. That was a new thing for me, John, that I didn't know, I didn't, I never thought about transient equity and transportation or lack thereof. And so w what this conference showed, I think this year is that the it's not just coding, but it's every industry. As we know, every company is a data company. Every company is a tech company. If they're not, they're not going to be here for a long. So the opportunities for women is the door is just blown. >>And I said, from my interviews, it's a data problem. That's our line. We always say in the cube, people who know our program programming, we say that, but it actually, when we get the data on the pipeline and the pipeline, it has data points where the ages of drop-off of girls and young women is 12 to 14 and 16 to 18, where the drop-off is significant. So attack the pipelining problem is one that I heard a lot of. And the other one that comes out a lot, it's kind of common sense, and it's talked about it, but it's nuanced, but it became very elevated this year in the breaking, the bias theme, which was role models are huge. So seeing powerful women in leadership positions is really a focus and that's inspires people and they can see themselves. And so I think when people see role models of women and, and folks on in positions, not just coded, but even at the executive suite huge focus. So I think that's going to be a next step function in my mind. That's that's, if I had to predict the trend, it would be you see a lot more role modeling, flexing that big time. >>Good that's definitely needed. You know, we, we often used to say she can't be what she can't see, but one of the interviews that I had said, she can be what she can see. And I loved the pivot on that because it put a positive light, but to your point, there needs to be more female role models that, that girls can look up to. So they can see, I can do this. Like she's doing leading, you know, YouTube, for example, or Sheryl Sandberg of Facebook. We need more of these role models to show the tremendous amount of opportunities that are there, and to help those, not just the younger girls, those even that are maybe more mature find that confidence to build. >>And I think that was another king that came out role models from family members, dad, or a relative, or someone that could see was a big one. The other common thread was, yeah. I tend to break stuff and like to put it together. So at a young age, they kind of realized that they were kind of nerdy and they like to do stuff very engineering, but mind is where math or science. And that was interesting. Sally eaves from in the UK brought this up, she's a professor and does cyber policy. She said, it's a stems gray, but put the arts in there, make it steam. So steam and stem are in two acronyms. Stem is, is obviously the technical, but adding arts because of the creativity needs, we need creativity and problem solving with technical. Yes. So it's not just stem it's theme. We've heard that before, but not as much this year, it's amplified big >>Time. Sally's great. I had the chance to interview her in the last couple of months. And you, you bring up creativity, which is an incredibly important point. You know, there are the, obviously the hard skills, the technical skills that are needed, but there's also creativity. Curiosity being curious to ask a question, there's probably many questions that we haven't even thought to ask yet. So encouraging that curiosity, that natural curiosity is as important as maybe someone say as the actual technical knowledge, >>What was the biggest thing you saw this year? If you zoom out and you look at the forest from the trees, what was the big observation for you this year? >>I think it's the growth of woods. We've decided seven years. It's now in 60 countries, 200 events, 500 ambassadors, probably 500 plus. And the number of people that I had on the program, John, that this is their first woods. So just the fact that it's growing, we, we we've seen it for years, but I think we really saw a lot of the fresh faces and heard from them today had stories of how they got involved and how they met Margo, how she found them. I had a younger Alon who'd just graduated from Harvard back in the spring. So maybe not even a year ago, working at Skydio, doing drone work and had a great perspective on why it's important to have women in the drone industry, the opportunities Jones for good. And it was just nice to hear that fresh perspective. And also to S to hear the women who are new to woods, get it immediately. You walk into the Arriaga alumni center in the morning and you feel the energy and the support and that it was just perpetuated year after year. >>Yeah, it's awesome. I think one of the things I think it was reflecting on this morning was how many women we've interviewed in our cube alumni database now. And we yet are massing quite the database of really amazing people and there's more coming in. So that was kind of on a personal kind of reflection on the cube and what we've been working on together. All of us, the other thing that jumped out at me was the international aspect this year. It just seems like there's a community of tribal vibe where it's not just the tech industry, you know, saying rod, rod, it's a complete call to arms around more stories, tell your story. Yes. More enthusiasm outside of the corporate kind of swim lanes into like more of, Hey, let's get the stories out there. And the catalyst from an interview turned into follow up on LinkedIn, just a lot more like viral network effect so much more this year than ever before. So, you know, we just got to get the stories. >>Absolutely. And I think people given what we've been through the last two years are just really hungry for that. In-person collaboration, the opportunity to see more leadership to get inspired and any level of their career. I think the women here this today have had that opportunity and it's been overwhelmingly positive as you can imagine as it is every year. But I agree. I think it's been more international and definitely much more focused on teaching some of the other skills, the confidence, the creativity, the curiosity. >>Well, Lisa, as of right now, it's March 8th in Japan. So today, officially is kicking off right now. It's kicking off international women's day, March 8th, and the cube has a four region portal that we're going to make open, thanks to the sponsors with widths and Stanford and AWS supporting our mission. We're going to have Latin America, AMIA Asia Pacific and north America content pumping on the cube all day today, tomorrow. >>Exactly. And we've had such great conversations. I really enjoyed talking to the women. I always, I love hearing the stories as you talked about, we need more stories to make it personal, to humanize it, to learn from these people who either had some of them had linear paths, but a lot of emergency zig-zaggy, as you would say. And I always find that so interesting to understand how they got to where they are. Was it zig-zaggy, was it zig-zaggy intentionally? Yes. Some of the women that I talked to had very intentional pivots in their career to get them where they are, but I still thought that story was a very, >>And I like how you're here at Stanford university with winds the day before international Wednesday, technically now in Asia, it's starting, this is going to be a yearly trend. This is season one episode, one of the cube covering international women's day, and then every day for the rest of the year, right? >>What were some of your takeaways from some of the international women's day conversations that you had? >>Number one thing was community. The number one vibe was besides the message of more roles or available role models are important. You don't have to be a coder, but community was inherently the fabric of every conversation. The people were high energy, highly knowledgeable about on being on point around the core issue. It wasn't really politicized was much more of about this is really goodness and real examples of force multipliers of diversity, inclusion and equity, when, what works together as a competitive advantage. And, you know, as a student of business, that is a real change. I think, you know, the people who do it are going to have a competitive advantage. So community competitive advantage and just, and just overall break that bias through the mentoring and the sponsorships. >>And we've had a lot of great conversations about, I loved the theme of international women's day, this year breaking the bias. I asked everybody that I spoke with for international women's day and for width. What does that mean to you? And where are we on that journey? And everyone had a really insightful stories to share about where we are with that in their opinions, in their fields industries. Why, and ultimately, I think the general theme was we have the awareness now that we need, we have the awareness from an equity perspective, that's absolutely needed. We have to start there, shine the light on it so that the bias can be broken and opportunities for everybody can just proliferate >>Global community is going to rise and it's going to tend to rise. The tide is rising. It's going to get better and better. It was a fun year this year. And I think it was relief that COVID kind of going out, people getting back into physical events has been, been really, really great. >>Yep, absolutely. So, John, I, I appreciate all the opportunities that you've given me as a female anchor on the show. International women's day coverage was fantastic. Widths 2022 coming to an end was fantastic. Look forward to next year. >>Well, Margo, Judy and Karen who put this together, had a vision and that vision was right and it was this working and when it gets going, it has escape, velocity unstoppable. >>It's a rocket ship. That's a rocket. I love that. I love to be part of John. Thanks for joining me on the wrap. We want to thank you for watching the cubes coverage of international women's day. The women's showcase as well as women in data science, 2022. We'll see you next time.

(upbeat music) >> Hey, everyone. Welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage of Women in Data Science Worldwide Conference, WiDS 2022, live from Stanford Uni&versity. I'm Lisa Martin. I have a guest next here with me. Maggie Wang is here, Autonomy Engineer at Skydio. Maggie, welcome to the program. >> Thanks so much. I'm so happy to be here. >> Excited to talk to you. You are one of the event speakers, but this is your first WiDS. What's your take so far? >> I'm really excited that there's a conference dedicated to getting more women in STEM. I think it's extremely important, and I'm so happy to be here. >> Were you always interested in STEM subjects when you were growing up? >> I think I've always been drawn to STEM, but not only STEM, but I've always been interested in arts, humanities. I'm getting more interested in the science as well. And I think STEM robotics was really my way to express myself and make things move in the real world. >> Nice. So you've got interests, I was reading about you, interests in motion planning, control theory, computer vision and deep learning. Talk to me about those interests. It sounds very fascinating. >> Yeah. So I think what really drew me into robotics was just how interdisciplinary the subject is. So I think a lot goes into creating a robot. So not only is it about actually understanding where you are in the world, it's also about seeing where you are in the world. And it's so interesting, because I feel like humans, you know, we take this all for granted, but it's actually so difficult to do that in an actual robot. So I'm excited about the possibilities of robotics now and in the future. >> Lots of possibilities. And you only graduated from Harvard last May, with a Bachelor's and a Masters? >> Yeah. >> Tell me a little bit about what you studied at Harvard. >> Yeah, so I studied Physics as my undergrad degree. And that was really interesting, because I've always been interested in science. And, actually, part of what got me interested in STEM was just learning about the universe and astrophysics. And that's what gets me excited. And I think I also wanted to supplement that with computer science and building things in the real world. And so that's why I got my Masters in that. And I always knew that I wanted to kind of blend a lot of different disciplines and study them. >> There's so much benefit from blending disciplines, in terms of even the thought diversity alone, which just opens up the opportunities to be almost endless. So you graduated in May. You're now at Skydio. Autonomy Engineer. Talk to me a little bit, first of all, tell me a bit about Skydio as a company, the products, what differentiates it, and then talk to me about what you're doing there specifically. >> So Skydio is a really amazing company. I'm super-fortunate to work there. So what they do is create autonomous drones, and what differentiates them is the autonomy. So in typical drones, it's very difficult to actually make sure that it has full understanding of the environment and obstacle avoidance. So what happens is we fly these drones manually, but we aren't able to harness the full potential of these drones because of lack of autonomy. So what we do is really push into this autonomous sphere, and make sure that we're able to understand the environment. We have deep learning algorithms on the drone, and we have really good planning and controls on the drone as well. So yeah, our company basically makes the most autonomous drones in the market. >> Nice. And tell me about your role specifically. >> Yeah. So as an autonomy engineer, I write algorithms that run on the drone, which is super-exciting. I can create some algorithms and design it, and then also fly it in simulation, and then fly it in the real world. So it's just really amazing to see the things I work with actually come to life. >> And talk to me about how you got involved in WiDS. You were saying it was your first WiDS, and Margot Gerritsen found you on LinkedIn, but what are some of the things that you've heard so far? I mean, I was in one of the panels this morning before we came out to the set, and I loved how they were talking about the importance of mentors and sponsors. Talk to me about some of your mentors along the way. >> Yeah, I had so many great mentors along the way. I definitely would not be here had it not been for them. Starting from my parents, they're immigrants from China, and they inspire me in so many ways. They're very hard-working, and they always encourage me to fail, and just be courageous, and, you know, follow my passions. And I think beyond that, like in high school, I had great mentors. One was an astrophysics professor. >> Wow. >> Yeah. So it was very amazing that I was able to have these opportunities at a young age. And even in high school, I was involved in all girls robotics team. And that really opened my eyes to how technology can be used and why more women should be in STEM. And that, you know, STEM should not be only for males. And it's really important for everyone to be involved. >> It is, for so many reasons. If we look at the data, and the workforce is about 50-50, but the number of women in STEM positions is less than 25%. It's something that's new to the tech industry. What are some of the things that... Do you see that, do you feel that, or are you just really excited to be able to focus on doing the autonomous engineering that you're doing? >> Well, I think that it's kind of easy to try to separate yourself and your identity from your work, but I don't necessarily agree with that. I think you need to, as best as possible, bring yourself to the table and bring your whole identity. And I think part of growing up for me was trying to understand who I was as a woman and also as an Asian American, and try to combine all of my identities into how I bring myself to the workplace. And I think as we become more vulnerable and try to understand ourselves and express ourselves to others, we're able to build more inclusive communities, in STEM and beyond. >> I agree. Very wise words. So you're going to be talking on the career panel today. What are some of the parts of wisdom are you going to leave the audience with this afternoon? >> Well, wisdom. I think everyone should be able to know, and have intuitive understanding of what they actually bring to the table. I think so many times women shy away from bringing themselves and showing up as themselves. And I think it's really important for a woman to understand that they hold a lot of power, that they have a voice that need to be heard. And I think I just want to encourage everyone to be passionate and show up. >> Be passionate and show up. That's great advice. One of the things that was talked about this morning, and we talk about this a lot when we talk about data or data science, is the inherent bias in data. Talk to me about the importance of data in robotics. Is there bias there? How do you navigate around that? >> Yeah, there's definitely bias in robotics. There's definitely a lot of data involved in robotics. So in many cases right now in robotics, we work in specialized fields, so you can see picking robots that will pick in specific factory locations. But if you bring them to other locations, like in your garage or something, and make it clean up, it's really difficult to do so. So I think having a lot of different streams of data and having very diverse sets of data is very important. And also being able to run these in the real world I think is also super-important, and something that Skydio addresses a lot. >> So you talked about Skydio, what you guys do there, and some of the differentiators. What are some of the technical challenges that you face in trying to do what you're doing? >> Well, first of all, Skydio's trying to run everything on board on the drone. So already there's a lot of technical challenges that goes into putting everything in a small form factor and making sure that we trade off between compute and all of these different resources. And yeah, making sure that we utilize all of our resources in the best possible way. So that's definitely one challenge. And making sure that we have these trade-offs, and understand the trade-offs that we make. >> That's a good point. Talk to me about why robotics researchers and industry practitioners, what should be some of the key things that they're focusing on? >> Yeah, so I think right now, as I said, a lot of robotics is in very specialized environments, and what we're trying to do in robotics is try to expand to more complex real world applications. And I think Skydio's at the forefront of this. And trying to get these drones in all different types of locations is very difficult, because you might not have good priors, you might not have good information on your data sources. So I think, yeah, getting good, diverse data and making sure that these robots can work in multiple environments can hopefully help us in the future when we use robots. >> Right. There's got to be so many real world a applications of that. >> Yeah, for sure. >> I imagine. Definitely. So talk to me about being a female in the drone industry. What's that like? Why do you think it's important to have the female voice in mind in the drone industry? >> Well, I think first of all, I think it's kind of sad to see not many women in the drone space, because I think there's a lot of potential for drones to be used for good in all the different areas that women care about. And for instance, like climate change, there's a lot of ways that drones can help in reducing waste in many different ways. Search and rescue, for instance. Those are huge issues, and potential solutions from drones. And I think that if women understand these solutions and understand how drones can be used for good, I think we could get more women in and excited about this. >> And how do you see your role in that, in helping to get more women excited, and maybe even just aware of it as a career opportunity? >> Yeah. So I think sometimes robotics can be a very niche subject, and a lot of people get into it from gaming or other things. But I think if we come to it as a way to solve humanity's greatest problems, I think that's what really inspires me. I think that's what would inspire a lot of young women, is to see that robotics is a way to help others. And also that it may not, if we don't consciously make it so that robotics helps others, and if we don't put our voices into the table, then potentially robotics will do harm. But we need to push it into the right direction. >> Do you feel it's going in the right direction? >> Yes, I think with more conferences like this, like WiDS, I think we're going in the right direction. >> Yeah, this is a great conference. It's one of my favorite shows to host. And you know, it only started back in 2015 as a one-day technical conference. And look at it now. It's a global movement. They found you. You're now part of the community. But there's hundreds of events going on in 60 countries. You have the opportunity there to really grow your network, but also reach a much bigger audience, just based on something like what Margot Gerritsen and the team have done with WiDS. What does that mean to you? >> It means a lot. I think it's so amazing that we're able to spread the word of how technology can be used in many different fields, not just robotics, but in healthcare, in search and rescue, in environmental protection. So just seeing the power that technology can bring, and spreading that to underserved communities, not just in the United States, I love how WiDS is a global community and there's regional chapters everywhere. And I think there should be more of this global collaboration in technology. >> I agree. You know, every company these days is a technology company, or a data company, or both. You think of even your local retailer or grocery store that has to be a technology company. So for women to get involved in technology, there's so many different applications of that. It doesn't have to be just coding, for example. You're doing work with drones. There's so much potential there. I think the more that we can do events like this, and leverage platforms like theCUBE, the more we can get that word out there. >> I agree. >> So you have the career panel. And then you're also doing a tech vision talk. >> Yeah, a tech talk. >> What are some of the things you're going to talk about there? >> Yeah, so I'm going to talk about... So at the career panel, just advice in general to young people who may be as confused and starting off their career, just like I am. And at the tech talk, I'll be talking about some different aspects of Skydio, and a specific use case, which is 3D scanning any physical object and putting that into a digital model. >> Ooh, wow. Tell me a little bit more about that. >> Yeah, so 3D scan is one of our products, and it allows for us to take pictures of anything in the physical world and make sure that we can put it into a digital form. So we can create digital twins into digital form, which is very cool. >> Very cool. So we're talking any type of physical object. >> Mm hm. So if you want to inspect a building, or any crumbling infrastructure, a lot of the times right now we use helicopters, or big snooper trucks, or just things that could be expensive or potentially dangerous. Instead, we can use a drone. So this is just one example of how drones can be used to help save lives, potentially. >> Tremendous amount of opportunity that drones provide. It's very exciting. What are some of the things that you're looking forward to this year? We are very early in calendar year 2022, but what are you excited about as the year progresses? >> Hmm. What am I excited about? I think there's a lot of really interesting drone-related companies, and also a lot of robotics companies in general, a lot of startups, and there's a lot of excitement there. And I think as the robotics community grows and grows, we'll be seeing more robots in real life. And I think that's just extremely exciting to me. >> It is. And you're at the forefront of that. Maggie, it's great to have you on the program. Thank you for sharing what you're doing at Skydio, your history, your past, and what you're going to be encouraging the audience to be able to go and achieve. We appreciate your time. >> Thanks so much. >> All right. From Maggie Wang. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE's coverage of Women in Data Science Worldwide Conference, WiDS 2022. Stick around. I'll be right back with my next guest. (upbeat music)