>>Welcome back everyone to the Cube and Horizon three.ai special presentation. I'm John Furrier, host of the Cube. We with Chris Hill, Sector head for strategic accounts and federal@horizonthree.ai. Great innovative company. Chris, great to see you. Thanks for coming on the Cube. >>Yeah, like I said, you know, great to meet you John. Long time listener. First time call. So excited to be here with >>You guys. Yeah, we were talking before camera. You had Splunk back in 2013 and I think 2012 was our first splunk.com. Yep. And boy man, you know, talk about being in the right place at the right time. Now we're at another inflection point and Splunk continues to be relevant and continuing to have that data driving security and that interplay. And your ceo, former CTO of Splunk as well at Horizons Neha, who's been on before. Really innovative product you guys have, but you know, Yeah, don't wait for a brief to find out if you're locking the right data. This is the topic of this thread. Splunk is very much part of this new international expansion announcement with you guys. Tell us what are some of the challenges that you see where this is relevant for the Splunk and the Horizon AI as you guys expand Node zero out internationally? >>Yeah, well so across, so you know, my role within Splunk was working with our most strategic accounts. And so I look back to 2013 and I think about the sales process like working with, with our small customers. You know, it was, it was still very siloed back then. Like I was selling to an IT team that was either using us for IT operations. We generally would always even say, yeah, although we do security, we weren't really designed for it. We're a log management tool. And you know, we, and I'm sure you remember back then John, we were like sort of stepping into the security space and in the public sector domain that I was in, you know, security was 70% of what we did. When I look back to sort of the transformation that I was, was witnessing in that digital transformation, you know when I, you look at like 2019 to today, you look at how the IT team and the security teams are, have been forced to break down those barriers that they used to sort of be silo away, would not communicate one, you know, the security guys would be like, Oh this is my BA box it, you're not allowed in today. >>You can't get away with that. And I think that the value that we bring to, you know, and of course Splunk has been a huge leader in that space and continues to do innovation across the board. But I think what we've we're seeing in the space that I was talking with Patrick Kauflin, the SVP of security markets about this, is that, you know, what we've been able to do with Splunk is build a purpose built solution that allows Splunk to eat more data. So Splunk itself, as you well know, it's an ingest engine, right? So the great reason people bought it was you could build these really fast dashboards and grab intelligence out of it, but without data it doesn't do anything, right? So how do you drive and how do you bring more data in? And most importantly from a customer perspective, how do you bring the right data in? >>And so if you think about what node zero and what we're doing in a Horizon three is that, sure we do pen testing, but because we're an autonomous pen testing tool, we do it continuously. So this whole thought of being like, Oh, crud like my customers, Oh yeah, we got a pen test coming up, it's gonna be six weeks. The wait. Oh yeah. You know, and everyone's gonna sit on their hands, Call me back in two months, Chris, we'll talk to you then. Right? Not, not a real efficient way to test your environment and shoot, we, we saw that with Uber this week. Right? You know, and that's a case where we could have helped. >>Well just real quick, explain the Uber thing cause it was a contractor. Just give a quick highlight of what happened so you can connect the >>Dots. Yeah, no problem. So there it was, I think it was one of those, you know, games where they would try and test an environment. And what the pen tester did was he kept on calling them MFA guys being like, I need to reset my password re to set my password. And eventually the customer service guy said, Okay, I'm resetting it. Once he had reset and bypassed the multifactor authentication, he then was able to get in and get access to the domain area that he was in or the, not the domain, but he was able to gain access to a partial part of the network. He then paralleled over to what would I assume is like a VA VMware or some virtual machine that had notes that had all of the credentials for logging into various domains. And so within minutes they had access. And that's the sort of stuff that we do under, you know, a lot of these tools. >>Like not, and I'm not, you know, you think about the cacophony of tools that are out there in a CTA orchestra architecture, right? I'm gonna get like a Zscaler, I'm gonna have Okta, I'm gonna have a Splunk, I'm gonna do this sore system. I mean, I don't mean to name names, we're gonna have crowd strike or, or Sentinel one in there. It's just, it's a cacophony of things that don't work together. They weren't designed work together. And so we have seen so many times in our business through our customer support and just working with customers when we do their pen test, that there will be 5,000 servers out there. Three are misconfigured. Those three misconfigurations will create the open door. Cause remember the hacker only needs to be right once, the defender needs to be right all the time. And that's the challenge. And so that's why I'm really passionate about what we're doing here at Horizon three. I see this my digital transformation, migration and security going on, which we're at the tip of the sp, it's why I joined say Hall coming on this journey and just super excited about where the path's going and super excited about the relationship with Splunk. I get into more details on some of the specifics of that. But you know, >>I mean, well you're nailing, I mean we've been doing a lot of things around super cloud and this next gen environment, we're calling it NextGen. You're really seeing DevOps, obviously Dev SecOps has, has already won the IT role has moved to the developer shift left as an indicator of that. It's one of the many examples, higher velocity code software supply chain. You hear these things. That means that it is now in the developer hands, it is replaced by the new ops, data ops teams and security where there's a lot of horizontal thinking. To your point about access, there's no more perimeter. So >>That there is no perimeter. >>Huge. A hundred percent right, is really right on. I don't think it's one time, you know, to get in there. Once you're in, then you can hang out, move around, move laterally. Big problem. Okay, so we get that. Now, the challenges for these teams as they are transitioning organizationally, how do they figure out what to do? Okay, this is the next step. They already have Splunk, so now they're kind of in transition while protecting for a hundred percent ratio of success. So how would you look at that and describe the challenges? What do they do? What is, what are the teams facing with their data and what's next? What do they, what do they, what action do they take? >>So let's do some vernacular that folks will know. So if I think about dev sec ops, right? We both know what that means, that I'm gonna build security into the app, but no one really talks about SEC DevOps, right? How am I building security around the perimeter of what's going inside my ecosystem and what are they doing? And so if you think about what we're able to do with somebody like Splunk is we could pen test the entire environment from soup to nuts, right? So I'm gonna test the end points through to it. So I'm gonna look for misconfigurations, I'm gonna, and I'm gonna look for credential exposed credentials. You know, I'm gonna look for anything I can in the environment. Again, I'm gonna do it at at light speed. And, and what we're, what we're doing for that SEC dev space is to, you know, did you detect that we were in your environment? >>So did we alert Splunk or the SIM that there's someone in the environment laterally moving around? Did they, more importantly, did they log us into their environment? And when did they detect that log to trigger that log? Did they alert on us? And then finally, most importantly, for every CSO out there is gonna be did they stop us? And so that's how we, we, we do this in, I think you, when speaking with Stay Hall, before, you know, we've come up with this boils U Loop, but we call it fine fix verify. So what we do is we go in is we act as the attacker, right? We act in a production environment. So we're not gonna be, we're a passive attacker, but we will go in un credentialed UN agents. But we have to assume, have an assumed breach model, which means we're gonna put a Docker container in your environment and then we're going to fingerprint the environment. >>So we're gonna go out and do an asset survey. Now that's something that's not something that Splunk does super well, you know, so can Splunk see all the assets, do the same assets marry up? We're gonna log all that data and think then put load that into the Splunk sim or the smoke logging tools just to have it in enterprise, right? That's an immediate future ad that they've got. And then we've got the fix. So once we've completed our pen test, we are then gonna generate a report and we could talk about about these in a little bit later. But the reports will show an executive summary the assets that we found, which would be your asset discovery aspect of that, a fixed report. And the fixed report I think is probably the most important one. It will go down and identify what we did, how we did it, and then how to fix that. >>And then from that, the pen tester or the organization should fix those. Then they go back and run another test. And then they validate through like a change detection environment to see, hey, did those fixes taste, play take place? And you know, SNA Hall, when he was the CTO of JS o, he shared with me a number of times about, he's like, Man, there would be 15 more items on next week's punch sheet that we didn't know about. And it's, and it has to do with how we, you know, how they were prioritizing the CVEs and whatnot because they would take all CVS was critical or non-critical. And it's like we are able to create context in that environment that feeds better information into Splunk and whatnot. That >>Was a lot. That brings, that brings up the, the efficiency for Splunk specifically. The teams out there. By the way, the burnout thing is real. I mean, this whole, I just finished my list and I got 15 more or whatever the list just can, keeps, keeps growing. How did Node zero specifically help Splunk teams be more efficient? Now that's the question I want to get at, because this seems like a very scalable way for Splunk customers and teams, service teams to be more efficient. So the question is, how does Node zero help make Splunk specifically their service teams be more efficient? >>So to, so today in our early interactions with building Splunk customers, what we've seen are five things, and I'll start with sort of identifying the blind spots, right? So kind of what I just talked about with you. Did we detect, did we log, did we alert? Did they stop node zero, right? And so I would, I put that at, you know, a a a more layman's third grade term. And if I was gonna beat a fifth grader at this game would be, we can be the sparring partner for a Splunk enterprise customer, a Splunk essentials customer, someone using Splunk soar, or even just an enterprise Splunk customer that may be a small shop with three people and, and just wants to know where am I exposed. So by creating and generating these reports and then having the API that actually generates the dashboard, they can take all of these events that we've logged and log them in. >>And then where that then comes in is number two is how do we prioritize those logs, right? So how do we create visibility to logs that are, have critical impacts? And again, as I mentioned earlier, not all CVEs are high impact regard and also not all are low, right? So if you daisy chain a bunch of low CVEs together, boom, I've got a mission critical AP CVE that needs to be fixed now, such as a credential moving to an NT box that's got a text file with a bunch of passwords on it, that would be very bad. And then third would be verifying that you have all of the hosts. So one of the things that Splunk's not particularly great at, and they, they themselves, they don't do asset discovery. So do what assets do we see and what are they logging from that? And then for, from, for every event that they are able to identify the, one of the cool things that we can do is actually create this low-code, no-code environment. >>So they could let, you know, float customers can use Splunk. So to actually triage events and prioritize that events or where they're being routed within it to optimize the SOX team time to market or time to triage any given event. Obviously reducing mtr. And then finally, I think one of the neatest things that we'll be seeing us develop is our ability to build glass tables. So behind me you'll see one of our triage events and how we build a lock Lockheed Martin kill chain on that with a glass table, which is very familiar to this Splunk community. We're going to have the ability, not too distant future to allow people to search, observe on those IOCs. And if people aren't familiar with an ioc, it's an incident of compromise. So that's a vector that we want to drill into. And of course who's better at drilling in into data and Splunk. >>Yeah, this is a critical, this is awesome synergy there. I mean I can see a Splunk customer going, Man, this just gives me so much more capability. Action actionability. And also real understanding, and I think this is what I wanna dig into, if you don't mind understanding that critical impact, okay. Is kind of where I see this coming. I got the data, data ingest now data's data. But the question is what not to log, You know, where are things misconfigured? These are critical questions. So can you talk about what it means to understand critical impact? >>Yeah, so I think, you know, going back to those things that I just spoke about, a lot of those CVEs where you'll see low, low, low and then you daisy chain together and you're suddenly like, oh, this is high now. But then to your other impact of like if you're a, if you're a a Splunk customer, you know, and I had, I had several of them, I had one customer that, you know, terabytes of McAfee data being brought in and it was like, all right, there's a lot of other data that you probably also wanna bring, but they could only afford, wanted to do certain data sets because that's, and they didn't know how to prioritize or filter those data sets. And so we provide that opportunity to say, Hey, these are the critical ones to bring in. But there's also the ones that you don't necessarily need to bring in because low CVE in this case really does mean low cve. >>Like an ILO server would be one that, that's the print server where the, your admin credentials are on, on like a, a printer. And so there will be credentials on that. That's something that a hacker might go in to look at. So although the CVE on it is low, if you daisy chain was something that's able to get into that, you might say, ah, that's high. And we would then potentially rank it giving our AI logic to say that's a moderate. So put it on the scale and we prioritize though, versus a, a vulner review scanner's just gonna give you a bunch of CVEs and good luck. >>And translating that if I, if I can and tell me if I'm wrong, that kind of speaks to that whole lateral movement. That's it. Challenge, right? Print server, great example, look stupid low end, who's gonna wanna deal with the print server? Oh, but it's connected into a critical system. There's a path. Is that kind of what you're getting at? >>Yeah, I used daisy chain. I think that's from the community they came from. But it's, it's just a lateral movement. It's exactly what they're doing. And those low level, low critical lateral movements is where the hackers are getting in. Right? So that's what the beauty thing about the, the Uber example is that who would've thought, you know, I've got my multifactor authentication going in a human made a mistake. We can't, we can't not expect humans to make mistakes. Were fall, were fallible, right? Yeah. The reality is is once they were in the environment, they could have protected themselves by running enough pen tests to know that they had certain exposed credentials that would've stopped the breach. Yeah. And they did not, had not done that in their environment. And I'm not poking. Yeah, >>They put it's interesting trend though. I mean it's obvious if sometimes those low end items are also not protected well. So it's easy to get at from a hacker standpoint, but also the people in charge of them can be fished easily or spear fished because they're not paying attention. Cause they don't have to. No one ever told them, Hey, be careful of what you collect. >>Yeah. For the community that I came from, John, that's exactly how they, they would meet you at a, an international event introduce themselves as a graduate student. These are national actor states. Would you mind reviewing my thesis on such and such? And I was at Adobe at the time though I was working on this and start off, you get the pdf, they opened the PDF and whoever that customer was launches, and I don't know if you remember back in like 2002, 2008 time frame, there was a lot of issues around IP being by a nation state being stolen from the United States and that's exactly how they did it. And John, that's >>Or LinkedIn. Hey I wanna get a joke, we wanna hire you double the salary. Oh I'm gonna click on that for sure. You know? Yeah, >>Right. Exactly. Yeah. The one thing I would say to you is like when we look at like sort of, you know, cuz I think we did 10,000 pen test last year is it's probably over that now, you know, we have these sort of top 10 ways that we think then fine people coming into the environment. The funniest thing is that only one of them is a, a CVE related vulnerability. Like, you know, you guys know what they are, right? So it's it, but it's, it's like 2% of the attacks are occurring through the CVEs, but yet there's all that attention spent to that. Yeah. And very little attention spent to this pen testing side. Yeah. Which is sort of this continuous threat, you know, monitoring space and, and, and this vulnerability space where I think we play such an important role and I'm so excited to be a part of the tip of the spear on this one. >>Yeah. I'm old enough to know the movie sneakers, which I love as a, you know, watching that movie, you know, professional hackers are testing, testing, always testing the environment. I love this. I gotta ask you, as we kind of wrap up here, Chris, if you don't mind the benefits to team professional services from this alliance, big news Splunk and you guys work well together. We see that clearly. What are, what other benefits do professional services teams see from the Splunk and Horizon three AI alliance? >>So if you're a, I think for, from our, our, from both of our partners as we bring these guys together and many of them already are the same partner, right? Is that first off, the licensing model is probably one of the key areas that we really excel at. So if you're an end user, you can buy for the enterprise by the enter of IP addresses you're using. But if you're a partner working with this, there's solution ways that you can go in and we'll license as to MSPs and what that business model on our MSPs looks like. But the unique thing that we do here is this c plus license. And so the Consulting Plus license allows like a, somebody a small to midsize to some very large, you know, Fortune 100, you know, consulting firms uses by buying into a license called Consulting Plus where they can have unlimited access to as many ips as they want. >>But you can only run one test at a time. And as you can imagine when we're going and hacking passwords and checking hashes and decrypting hashes, that can take a while. So, but for the right customer, it's, it's a perfect tool. And so I I'm so excited about our ability to go to market with our partners so that we underhand to sell, understand how not to just sell too or not tell just to sell through, but we know how to sell with them as a good vendor partner. I think that that's one thing that we've done a really good job building bringing into market. >>Yeah. I think also the Splunk has had great success how they've enabled partners and professional services. Absolutely. They've, you know, the services that layer on top of Splunk are multifold tons of great benefits. So you guys vector right into that ride, that wave with >>Friction. And, and the cool thing is that in, you know, in one of our reports, which could be totally customized with someone else's logo, we're going to generate, you know, so I, I used to work at another organization, it wasn't Splunk, but we, we did, you know, pen testing as a, as a for, for customers and my pen testers would come on site, they, they do the engagement and they would leave. And then another really, someone would be, oh shoot, we got another sector that was breached and they'd call you back, you know, four weeks later. And so by August our entire pen testings teams would be sold out and it would be like, wow. And in March maybe, and they'd like, No, no, no, I gotta breach now. And, and, and then when they do go in, they go through, do the pen test and they hand over a PDF and they pat you on the back and say, there's where your problems are, you need to fix it. And the reality is, is that what we're gonna generate completely autonomously with no human interaction is we're gonna go and find all the permutations that anything we found and the fix for those permutations and then once you fixed everything, you just go back and run another pen test. Yeah. It's, you know, for what people pay for one pen test, they could have a tool that does that. Every, every pat patch on Tuesday pen test on Wednesday, you know, triage throughout the week, >>Green, yellow, red. I wanted to see colors show me green, green is good, right? Not red. >>And once CIO doesn't want, who doesn't want that dashboard, right? It's, it's, it is exactly it. And we can help bring, I think that, you know, I'm really excited about helping drive this with the Splunk team cuz they get that, they understand that it's the green, yellow, red dashboard and, and how do we help them find more green so that the other guys are >>In Yeah. And get in the data and do the right thing and be efficient with how you use the data, Know what to look at. So many things to pay attention to, you know, the combination of both and then, then go to market strategy. Real brilliant. Congratulations Chris. Thanks for coming on and sharing this news with the detail around this Splunk in action around the alliance. Thanks for sharing, >>John. My pleasure. Thanks. Look forward to seeing you soon. >>All right, great. We'll follow up and do another segment on DevOps and IT and security teams as the new new ops, but, and Super cloud, a bunch of other stuff. So thanks for coming on. And our next segment, the CEO of Verizon, three AA, will break down all the new news for us here on the cube. You're watching the cube, the leader in high tech enterprise coverage.

(upbeat music) >> Dave Vellante: Okay. We're back with Mark Hill. who's the Director of IT Operations at Digital River. Mark. Welcome to the cube. Good to see you. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. >> Hey, tell us a little bit more about Digital River, people know you as a, a payment platform, you've got marketing expertise. How do you differentiate from other e-commerce platforms? >> Well, I don't think people realize it, but Digital River was founded about 27 years ago. Primarily as a one-stop shop for e-commerce right? And so we offered site development, hosting, order management, fraud, expert controls, tax, um, physical and digital fulfillment, as well as multilingual customer service, advanced reporting and email marketing campaigns, right? So it was really just kind of a broad base for e-commerce. People could just go there. Didn't have to worry about anything. What we found over time as e-commerce has matured, we've really pivoted to a more focused API offering, specializing in just our global seller services. And to us that means payment, fraud, tax, and compliance management. So our, our global footprint allows companies to outsource that risk management and expand their markets internationally, um very quickly. And with low cost of entry. >> Yeah. It's an awesome business. And, you know, to your point, you were founded way before there was such a thing as the modern cloud, and yet you're a cloud native business. >> Yeah. >> Which I think talks to the fact that, that incumbents can evolve. They can reinvent themselves from a technology perspective. I wonder if you could first paint a picture of, of how you use the cloud, you use AWS, you know, I'm sure you got S3 in there. Maybe we could talk about that a little bit. >> Yeah, exactly. So when I think of a cloud native business, you kind of go back to the history. Well, 27 years ago, there wasn't a cloud, right? There wasn't any public infrastructure. It was, we basically stood our own data center up in a warehouse. And so over our history, we've managed our own infrastructure and collocated data centers over time through acquisitions and just how things worked. You know those over 10 data centers globally. for us it was expensive, well from a software hardware perspective, as well as, you know, getting the operational teams and expertise up to up to speed too. So, and it was really difficult to maintain and ultimately not core to our business, right? Nowhere in our mission statement, does it say that we're our goal is to manage data centers? So, so about five years ago, we started the journey from our hosted into AWS. It was a hundred percent lift it and shift plan, and we were able to bleed that migration a little over two years, right. Amazon really just fit for us. It was a natural, a natural place for us to land and they made it really easy here for us to not to say it wasn't difficult, but, but once in the public cloud, we really adopted a cloud first vision. Meaning that we'll not only consume their infrastructure as the service, but we'll also purposely evaluate and migrate to software as a service. So I come from a database background. So an example would be migrating from self deployed and managed relational databases over to AWS RDS, relational database service. You know, you're able to utilize the backups, the standby and the patching tools. Automagically, you know, with a click of the button. And that's pretty cool. And so we moved away from the time consuming operational tasks and, and really put our resources into revenue and generate new products, you know, like pivoting to an API offering. I always like to say that we stopped being busy and started being productive. >> Ha ha. I love that. >> That's really what the cloud has done for us. >> Is that you mean by cloud native? I mean, being able to take advantage of those primitives and native API. So what does that mean for your business? >> Yeah, exactly. I think, well, the first step for us was just to consume the infrastructure right, in that, but now we're looking at targeted services that they have in there too. So, you know, we have our, our, our data stream of services. So log analytics, for example, we used to put it locally on the machine. Now we're just dumping into an S3 bucket and we're using Kinesis to consume that data, put it in Eastic and go from there. And none of the services are managed by Digital River. We're just utilizing the capabilities that AWS has there too. So. >> And as an e-commerce player, retail company, we were ever concerned about moving to AWS as a possible competitor, or did you look at other clouds? What can you tell us about that? >> Yeah. And, and so I think e-commerce has really matured, right? And so we, we got squeezed out by the Amazons of the world. It's just not something that we were doing, but we had really a good area of expertise with our global seller services. But so we evaluated Microsoft. We evaluated AWS as well as Google. And, you know, back when we did that, Microsoft was Windows-based. Google was just coming into the picture, really didn't fit for what we were doing, but Amazon was just a natural fit. So we made a business decision, right? It was financially really the best decision for us. And so we didn't really put our feelings into it, right? We just had to move forward and it's better than where we're at. And we've been delighted actually. >> Yeah. It makes sense. Best cloud, best, best tech. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I want to talk about ChaosSearch. A lot of people describe it as a data lake for log analytics. Do you agree with that? You know, what does that, what does that even mean? >> Well, from, from our perspective, because they're self-managed solutions were costly and difficult to maintain, you know, we had older versions of self deployed using Splunk, other things like that, too. So over time, we made a conscious decision to limit our data retention in generally seven days. But in a lot of cases, it was zero. We just couldn't consume that, that log data because of the cost, intimidating in itself, because of this limit, you know, we've lost important data points use for incident triage, problem management, problem management, trending, and other things too. So ChaosSearch has offered us a manageable and cost-effective opportunity to store months, or even years of data that we can use for operations, as well as trending automation. And really the big thing that we're pushing into is an event driven architecture so that we can proactively manage our services. >> Yeah. You mentioned Elastic, I know I've talked to people who use the ELK Stack. They say you there's these exponential growth in the amount of data. So you have to cut it off at whatever. I think you said seven days or, or less you're saying, you're not finding that with, with ChaosSearch? >> Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And that was one of the huge benefits here too. So, you know, we were losing out if there was a lower priority incident, for example, and people didn't get to it until eight, nine days later. Well, all the breadcrumbs are gone. So it was really just kind of a best guess or the incident really wasn't resolved. We didn't find a root cause. >> Yeah. Like my video camera down there. My, you know, my other house, somebody breaks in and I don't find out for, for two weeks and then the video's gone. That kind of same thing. >> Yep So, so, so how do you, can you give us some more detail on how you use your data lake and ChaosSearch specifically? >> Yeah, yeah. Yep. And, and so there's, there's many different areas, but what we found is we were able to easily consolidate data from multiple regions, into a single pane of glass to our customers. So internally and externally, you know, it relieves us of that operational support for the data extract transformation load process, right? It offered us also a seamless transition for the users, who were familiar with ElasticSearch, right? It wasn't, it wasn't difficult to move over. And so all these are a lot of selling points, benefits. And, and so now that we have all this data that we're able to, to capture and utilize, it gives us an opportunity to use machine learning, predictive analysis. And like I said, you know, driving to an event driven architecture. >> Okay. >> So that's, that's really what it's offered. And it's, it's been a huge benefit. >> So you're saying that you can speak the language of Elastic. You don't have to move the data out of an S3 bucket and you can scale more easily. Is that right? >> Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, so for us, just because we're running in multiple regions to drive more high availability, having that data available from multiple regions in a single pane of glass or a single way to utilize it, is a huge benefit as well. Just, you know, not to mention actually having the data. >> What was the initial catalyst to sort of rethink what you were doing with log analytics? Was it cost? Was it flexibility? Scale? >> There was, I think all of those went into it. One of the main drivers. So, so last year we had a huge project, so we have our ELK Stack and it's probably from a decade ago, right? And, you know, a version point oh two or something, you know, anyways, it's a very old, and we went through a whole project to get that upgraded and migrated over. And it was just, we found it impossible internally to do, right? And so this was a method for us to get out of that business, to get rid of the security risks, the support risk, and have a way for people to easily migrate over. And it was just a nightmare here, consolidating the data across regions. And so that was, that was a huge thing, but yeah, it was also been the cost, right? It was, we were finding it cheaper to use ChaosSearch and have more data available versus what we're doing currently in AWS. >> Got it. I wonder if you could, you could share maybe any stories that you have or examples that, that underscore the impact that this approach to analytics is having on your business, maybe your team's everyday activities, any, any metrics you can provide or even just anecdotal information. >> Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think, you know, one coming from an Oracle background here, so Digital River historically has been an Oracle shop, right? And we've been developing a reporting and analytics environment on Oracle and that's complicated and expensive, right? We had to use advance features in Oracle, like partitioning materialized views, and bring in other supporting software like Informatica, Hyperion, Sbase, right? And all of these required our large team with a wide set of expertise into these separate focus areas, right? And the amount of data that we were pushing at the ChaosSearch would simply have overwhelmed this legacy method for data analysis than a relational database, right? In that dimension, the human toll of, of the stress of supporting that Oracle environment, meant that a 24 by seven by 365 environment, you know, which requires little or no downtime. So, just that alone, it's a huge thing. So it's allowed us to break away from Oracle, it's allowed us to use new technologies that make sense to solve business solutions. >> I, you know, ChaosSearch is really interesting company to me. I'm sure like me, you see a lot of startups, I'm sure they're knocking on your door every day. And I always like to say, okay, where are they going after? Are they going after a big market? How are they getting product market fit? And it seems like ChaosSearch has really looked at, hard at log analytics and kind of maybe disrupting the ELK Stack. But I see, you know, other potential use cases, you know, beyond analyzing logs. I wonder if you agree, are there other use cases that you see in your future? >> Yeah, exactly. So I think there's, one area would be Splunk, for example, we have that here too. So we use Splunk versus, you know, flat file analysis or other ways to, to capture that data just because from a PCI perspective, it needs to be secured for our compliance and certification, right? So ChaosSearch allows us to do that. There's different types of authentication. Um, really a hodgepodge of authentication that we used in our old environment, but ChaosSearch has a more easily usable one, One that we could set up, one that can really segregate the data and allow us to satisfy our PCR requirements too. So, but Splunk, but I think really deprecating all of our ElasticSearch environments are homegrown ones, but then also taking a hard look at what we're doing with relational databases, right? 27 years ago, there was only relational databases; Oracle and Sequel Server. So we we've been logging into those types of databases and that's not, cost-effective, it's not supportable. And so really getting away from that and putting the data where it belongs and that was easily accessible in a secure environment and allowing us to, to push our business forward. >> Yep. When you say, where the data belongs, right? It sounds like you're putting it in the bit bucket, S3, leaving it there, because it's the the most cost-effective way to do it and then sort of adding value on top of it. That's, what's interesting about ChaosSearch to me. >> Yeah, exactly. Yup. Yup. Versus the high priced storage, you know, that you have to use for a relational database, you know, and not to mention that the standbys, the backups. So, you know, you're duplicating, triplicating all this data too in an expensive manner, so yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Copy. Create. Moving data around and it gets expensive. It's funny when you say about databases, it's true. But database used to be such a boring market. Now it's exploded. Then you had the whole no Sequel movement and Sequel, Sequel became the killer app. You know, it's like full circle, right? >> Yeah, exactly. >> Well, anyway, good stuff, Mark, really, really appreciate you coming on the Cube and, and sharing your perspectives. We'd love to have you back in the future. >> Oh yeah, no problem. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. (upbeat music) >> Okay. So that's a wrap. You know, we're seeing a new era in data and analytics. For example, we're moving from a world where data lives in a cloud object store and needs to be extracted, moved into a new data store, transformed, cleansed, structured into a schema, and then analyzed. This cumbersome and expensive process is being revolutionized by companies like ChaosSearch that leave the data in place and then interact with it in a multi-lingual fashion with tooling, that's familiar to analytic pros. You know, I see a lot of potential for this technology beyond just login analytics use cases, but that's a good place to start. You know, really, if I project out into the future, we see a trend of the global data mesh, really taking hold where a data warehouse or data hub or a data lake or an S3 bucket is just a discoverable node on that mesh. And that's governed by an automated computational processes. And I do see ChaosSearch as an enabler of this vision, you know, but for now, if you're struggling to scale with existing tools or you're forced to limit your attention because data is exploding at too rapid a pace, you might want to check these guys out. You can schedule a demo just by clicking the button on the site to do that. Or stop by the ChaosSearch booth at AWS Reinvent. The Cube is going to also be there. We'll have two sets, a hundred guests. I'm Dave Volante. You're watching the Cube, your leader in high-tech coverage.

(gentle music) >> Okay, we're back with Mark Hill who's the director of IT operations at Digital River. Mark, Welcome to "The Cube." Good to see you. >> Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. >> Hey, tell us a little bit more about Digital River, people know you as a payment platform. >> You've got marketing expertise. >> Yeah. >> How do you differentiate from other e-commerce platforms? >> Well, I don't think people realize it, but Digital River was founded about 27 years ago primarily as a one-stop shop for e-commerce, right? And so we offered site development, hosting, order management, fraud, expert controls, tax, physical and digital fulfillment as well as multilingual customer service, advanced reporting and email marketing campaigns, right? So it was really just kind of a broad base for e-commerce. People could just go there. Didn't have to worry about anything. What we found over time as e-commerce has matured, we've really pivoted to a more focused API offering specializing in just a global seller services. And to us that means payment, fraud, tax and compliance management. So our global footprint allows companies to outsource that risk management and expand their markets internationally very quickly and with the low cost of entry. >> Yeah, it's an awesome business. And, you know, to your point, you were founded way before there was such a thing as the modern cloud, and yet you're a cloud native business. >> Yeah. >> Which I think talks to the fact that incumbents can evolve, they can reinvent themselves from a technology perspective. I wonder if you could first paint a picture of how you use the cloud, you use AWS, you know, I'm sure you got S3 in there. Maybe we could talk about that a little bit. >> Yeah, exactly. So when I think of a cloud native business, you kind of go back to the history. Well, 27 years ago, there wasn't a cloud, right? There wasn't any public infrastructure. We basically started our own data center up in a warehouse. And so over our history, we've managed our own infrastructure and co-located data centers over time through acquisitions and just how things works, you know, those are over 10 data centers globally for us. For us it was expensive, well from a software, hardware perspective, as well as, you know, getting the operational teams and expertise up to speed too. And it was really difficult to maintain and ultimately not core to our business, right? Nowhere in our mission statement does it say that our goal is to manage data centers. (laughing) So, about five years ago we started the journey from our host into AWS. It was a hundred percent lift and shift plan and we were able to complete that migration a little over two years, right? Amazon really just fit for us, it was a natural, a natural place for us to land in and they made it really easy here for us to, not to say it wasn't difficult, but once in the public cloud, we really adopted a cloud first vision, meaning that we'll not only consume their infrastructure as the service, but we'll also purposely evaluate and migrate to software as a service. So, I come from a database background. So an example would be migrating from self deployed and manage relational databases over to AWS RDS, relational database service. You know, you're able to utilize the backups, the standby and the patching tools auto magically, you know, with a click of a button. And that's pretty cool. And so we moved away from the time consuming operational task and really put our resources into revenue and generating the products, you know, like pivoting to an API offering. I always like to say that we stopped being busy and started being productive. (laughing) >> I love that. >> And that's really what the cloud has done for us. >> Is that what you mean by cloud native? I mean, being able to take advantage of those primitives and native API. So what does that mean for your business? >> Yeah, exactly. I think, well, the first step for us was just to consume the infrastructure, right? But now we're looking at targeted services that they have in there too. So, you know, we have our data stream of services. So log analytics, for example, we used to put it locally on the machine. Now we're just dumping into an S3 bucket the way you're using Kinesis to consume that data and put it in elastic and go from there. And none of the services are managed by Digital River. We're just realizing the capabilities that AWS has there too. >> And as an e-commerce player, retail company, were you ever concerned about moving to AWS as a possible competitor, or did you look at other clouds? What can you tell us about that? >> Yeah, and so, I think e-commerce is really mature, right? And so we got squeezed out by the Amazons of the world. It's just not something that we were doing, but we had really a good area of expertise with our global seller services. So we evaluated Microsoft, we evaluated AWS as well as Google and, you know, back when we did that, Microsoft was Windows-based. Google was just coming into the picture, really didn't fit for what we're doing, but Amazon was just a natural fit. So, we made a business decision, right? It was financially really the best decision for us. And so we didn't really put our feelings into it, right? We just had to move forward and it's better than where we're at and we've been delighted actually. >> Yeah, makes sense, best cloud, the best tech. >> Yeah. >> You know, I want to talk about Chaos Search. A lot of people describe it as a data lake for log analytics. Do you agree with that? You know, what does that even mean? >> Yeah, well, from our perspective because the self-managed solutions are costly and difficult to maintain. You know, we had older versions of self deployed using Splunk, other things like that too. So over time, we made a conscious decision to limit our data retention in generally seven days. But in a lot of cases, it was zero. We just couldn't consume that log data because of the cost, intimidating in itself, because of this limit, you know, we've lost important data points, use for incident triage problem management, trending and other things too. So, Chaos Search has offered us a manageable and cost-effective opportunity to store months or even years of data that we can use for operations as well as trending automation. And really the big thing that we're pushing into is in the event of an architecture so that we can proactively manage our services. >> Yeah, you mentioned elastic. So I know I've talked to people who use the Elk Stack. They say, yes, this is exponential growth in the amount of data. So you have to cut it off at whatever. I think you said seven days, >> Yeah. >> Or less, you're saying you're not finding that with Chaos Search? >> Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that was one of the huge benefits here too. So, you know, we we're losing out if there was, you know, a lower priority incident for example and people didn't get to it until eight, nine days later. Well, all the bread crumbs are gone. So it was really just kind of a best guess or the incident really wasn't resolved. We didn't find a root cause. >> Yeah, like my video camera's down you know, by your other house, is that when somebody breaks in, I don't find out for two weeks and then the video's gone, kind of like same thing. >> Yeah. >> So, how do you, can you give us some more detail on how you use your data lake and Chaos Search specifically? >> Yeah, yeah. Yep and so there's many different areas, but what we found is we were able to easily consolidate data from multiple regions into a single pane of glass to our customers. So internal and externally, you know, it really does serve that operational support for the data extract transformation load process, right? It offered us also a seamless transition for the users who were familiar with elastic search, right? It wasn't difficult to move over. And so all these are a lot of selling points benefits. And so now that we have all this data that we're able to capture and utilize, it gives us an opportunity to use machine learning, predictive analysis. And like I said, you know, driving to an event driven architecture. >> Okay. >> So that's really what is offered and it's been a huge benefit. >> So you're saying you can speak the language of elastic. You don't have to move the data out of an S3 bucket and you can scale more easily. Is that right? >> Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it is so for us just because running in multiple regions to drive more high availability, having that data available from multiple regions in a single pane of glass or a single way to utilize it is a huge benefit as well, just to, you know, not to mention actually having the data. >> What was the initial catalyst to sort of rethink what you were doing with log analytics? Was it cost, was it flexibility scale? >> There was, I think all of those went into it. One of the main drivers, so last year we had a huge project, so we have our Elk Stack and it's probably from a decade ago, right? And, you know, a version point or two or something, you know, anyways, it's very old and we went through a whole project to get that upgraded and migrated over. And it was just, we found it impossible internally to do, right? And so this was a method for us to get out of that business, to get rid of the security risks and support risk and have a way for people to easily migrate over. And it was just a nightmare here consolidating the data across regions. And so that was a huge thing. But yeah, it has also been the cost, right? We're finding that cheaper to use Chaos Search and have more data available versus what we were doing currently in AWS. >> Got it, I wonder if you could share maybe any stories that you have or examples that underscore the impact that this approach to analytics, >> Yeah >> Is having on your business, maybe your team's everyday activities, any metrics you can provide, >> Yeah. >> Or even just anecdotal information? >> Yeah, yeah. And and I think, you know, one, coming from an Oracle background here, so Digital River historically has been an Oracle shop, right? And we've been developing a reporting and analytics environment on Oracle and that's complicated and expensive, right? We had to use advanced features in Oracle like partitioning materialized views and bringing other supporting software like Informatic, Hyperion, Essbase, right? And all of these require a large team with a wide set of expertise into the separate focus areas, right? And the amount of data that we were pushing at the KF search would simply have overwhelmed this legacy method for data analysis than a relational database, right? In that dimension, the human toll of the stress of supporting that Oracle environment than a 24 by seven by 365 environment, you know, which requires literal or no downtime. So just that alone, it was a huge thing. So, it's allowed us to break away from Oracle, it's allowed us to use new technologies that make sense to solve business solutions. >> You know, Chaos Search is just a really interesting company to me, I'm sure like me, you see a lot of startups. I'm sure they're knocking on your door every day. And I always like to say, "Okay, where are they going after? "Are they going after a big market? "How are they getting product market fit?" And it seems like Chaos Search has really looked that hard at log analytics and sort of maybe disrupting the Elk Stack. But I see, you know, other potential use cases, you know, beyond analyzing logs. I wonder if you agree, are there other use cases that you see in your future? >> Yeah, exactly. So, I think there's one area would be Splunk for example. We have that here too. So we use Splunk versus, you know, flat file analysis or other ways to capture that data just because from a PCI perspective, it needs to be secured for our compliance and certification, right? So Chaos Search allows us to do that. There's different types of authentication, really a hodgepodge of authentication that we used in our old environment, but Chaos Search has a more easily usable one, one that we could set up, one that can really segregate the data and allows to satisfy our PCR requirements too. But Splunk, I think really, deprecating all of our elastic search environments are homegrown ones, but then also taking a hard look at what we're doing with relational databases, right? 27 years ago, there was only relational databases, Oracle and SQL server. So we've been logging into those types of databases and that's not cost-effective, it's not supportable. And so really getting away from that and putting the data where it belongs and that is easily accessible in a secure environment and allowing us to push our business forward. >> And when you say where the data belongs, it sounds like you're putting it in the bit bucket S3, leaving it there, >> Yeah. >> And this is the most cost-effective way to do it and then sort of adding value on top of it. That's what's interesting about Chaos Search to me. >> Yeah, exactly, yup, yup versus the high price storage, you know, that you have to use for a relational database, you know, and not to mention the standbys, the backups. So, you know, you're duplicating, triplicating all this data in here too in expensive manner. So yeah. >> Yeah, copy creating, moving data around and it gets expensive. It's funny when you say about databases, it's true. But database used to be such a boring market now it's exploded. Then you had the whole no SQL movement and SQL became the killer app, you know, it's like full circle. (laughing) >> Yeah, yeah, exactly. >> Well, anyway, good stuff Mark, really, I really appreciate you coming on "The Cube" and sharing your perspectives. We'd love to have you back in the future. >> Oh yeah, yeah, no problem. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. >> Yeah, our pleasure. Okay, in a moment, I'll have some closing thoughts on getting more value out of your growing data lakes. You're watching "The Cube," you're leader in high-tech coverage. (gentle music)

>> from Seattle WASHINGTON. It's the Q covering AWS Imagine nonprofit brought to you by Amazon Web service is >> Hey, welcome back and ready Geoffrey here with the Cube. We're in downtown Seattle, actually, right on the water from the AWS. Imagine nonprofit event. We're here a couple weeks back for the education version of this event. First time to come into the non profit of it, and >> we're really excited to have our next guest. I knew a little bit about this organization before. Now we know a lot more. As he came off his keynote, he's brought Excuse me, Byron Hill, global head of >> technology for the Movember Foundation. By a great job on the keynote >> in the bay here to talk to you. >> And I think you came further than anybody did. Any other hands come up? I couldn't see the audience. 1000 miles, one >> I actually asked with from. So my whole stick around, you know, being from Australia 8140 miles to Seattle lost its appeal. If I'd said half Are you from 10,000 miles? >> Yes. Yes. We're glad we're glad you made it so that for the people that aren't >> familiar with them. Forgive him. Kind of a quick overview, Absolutely so in November >> is one of the world's largest men's health charities. We focus on three areas of men's health. Prostate cancer, mental health and testicular cancer. And every year we have annual fundraising campaign where we encourage men and women to fund. Rise for our cause is >> so Men's health is a really tricky situation. Let's met with GAL. She's like, Yeah, I'm going to do this. Start up. I'm gonna help. I'm gonna help all my male friends get to their doctor. Please. I was like, That's not the problem. The problem is, I never want to go in the first place. I don't want to talk about it. They want to acknowledge it. You know, they don't want to get their colonoscopy. They've heard horrible things about the prostate exam. So this is a really challenging thing to tackle. So how did you guys decide to go after it? How are you doing it a little bit differently so that you can have some success and he's not easy to operate areas. >> We realize that men's health was in a state of crisis. Men live on average sixties. Lesson. Women. And as you say, it's because way sit on the couch. We don't let things. We don't take action as opposed to women who always talk to themselves and should get out there and get something checked. So focusing on areas such as prostate cancer, where we know the family, history and ethnicity really important factors around these disease types and really targeting those populations and making sure we can have a big impact. We also spend a lot of time looking at survivorship. But how we can help people through that journey and understand what that journey looks like and help them actually have a really positive outcome At the end of it. My oh suicide is a huge area. Focus. One man every minute globally will die by suicide. And while that's not a uniquely mild disease, three out of four suicides a mile to really try to develop unique messaging, to talk to men in a very direct way is being one way we've I tried to get a cut through to really make a difference, right? >> So the mustache is in November in November, How did that come together? So you know, you've got these very serious diseases that we're trying to address a really big global problem. And you're coming at it with this kind of fun, kind of tongue in cheek thing. Movember. So for the folks that aren't familiar, what is movin, roll about? How did it come about? And really, what's the impact that actually, he has a huge impact with you outlined in the keynote? >> Absolutely So remember, started with two guys in a pub talking about fashion trends. They got onto the fact that the mustache had been the mainstay of seventies and eighties fashion and all but disappeared in the nineties. They just started to bring the mustache back as a gag. They got 30 mites, my yoga, robust ashes. They raise $0. They realized that papal complete strangers in the street. We're coming up to them asking about the mustache. What's that thing when you leave? And they realize the power of the mustache was something much more created conversations and allowed people to connect with one another to create an environment. We were able to talk about men's health. That's where we started. We never intended to become a men's health charity, but fast forward to 2009 and we've had over 6,000,000 people participating in a fundraising campaigns in the top 45 engineers globally and have funded over 1200 men's health programs. And again, all starting with two guys and pub. Having having a conversation about fashion trends >> you have, The numbers are amazing. I >> think you said S O start in 2004 and you guys were raising over $100,000,000 a year. How does it tie back to the mustache? Is just a conversation starter? No, by the way, this is why I'm doing it and please go go to the Web site. One of the mechanics. >> It's all about fun. Originally, the idea of the moustache was just fun. Just grow a mustache. Race and funds. That's it. We've really matured and progress in the last few years around really focusing in on the importance of men's health. So it started as a fun thing back in the day, and now we still try to maintain the fund. We also have a serious message to get through. So, quite literally, will ask people to grow a mustache last. Him too host and van will ask them to move. We've got a whole range of different fundraising ideas, and the idea is to absolutely get people raising funds in November. Getting as many people as we can to sign up and to grow moustache is and two doughnuts. So that's quite literally how we do it. And then we invest those funds back into women's health records. A >> great Well, I can assure you, after today we will be. The Q team will all be doing their best to get them. The mustache is there in a couple of months, but >> you had a >> lot of other really interesting messages within your within. You're talking about a culture of innovation, Mom. And everyone is always struggling. How do I and still a culture of innovation, especially in a large organization? You had a great quote. You're not the 1st 1 ever say it, but you said it with such passion, and clearly it's fall in love with the problem, not the solution to many people especially intact. Yeah, they want to talk about the attack. They don't want to talk about the problem. How do you know X ticket that? How do you instill that in your team. And how's that be really been a great driver for your success in development as a zone organization? >> Absolutely. So you're quite right. Paper will jump to the solution. And it's not just technical. People, like most people will come to you with a solution because I think they're actually helping. They think that they know exactly what the problem is to really just trying to position that to say, Well, let's get really clear and say Fall in love with problem Get really clear around the outcomes, withdrawn and deliver. Think about the experience is withdrawn. Give people here and then think about the technology. I talked about bringing the community into the conversation. Imagine the power you can have by bringing the community at the table when you're designing a new product. We try to do that all the time having a man in the room that suffered from prostate cancer. The insights they give you. We're very quickly highlight that you may have absolutely no idea of what the problem is. I talked a lot about assumptions. We form assumptions in her mind that crystallized. We have this bias and you have to challenge yourself to constantly go back to the coalface and look at those assumptions. Are they right? Are we solving completely the wrong problem Here you can deliver a great solution that completely misses a problem. So how do we do that? We encourage people to think about the problem. Immersed herself in the research. I talked about an example in testicular cancer. We spent three months on understanding the problem. Three months we spent four weeks on building a solution, and that was for a feeling that we didn't quite have the confidence that we knew what the problem. Waas. We wanted to know what itwas who wanted to delve into that research and really engage with people. Engage the community to get a deep seated understanding of what we were trying to solve. Right? >> Another PC talked about Is the community the importance of the community and really said the community is the why really powerful statement And I don't know people. Sometimes I think, think of community 10 gentle They're not really is the purpose for what? You know why you get up in the morning every day and why you do what you do. You have that come about. And how do you make sure that that stays, You know, clearly in focus for everyone. >> It's a really important point, and it's why we exist. And for us, it's a mobile rose and most sisters and the men that we serve. So how do we do it? We have to constantly anchor ourselves back to the point that there are means and means of men out there suffering from this desert diseases that we support. We want to create a better world for them so we can a line around the Y. If everyone in the organization understands why we're doing the work, it helps us deliver some amazing outcomes and again, the context of having people in the room, the community being part of the conversation that you're having gives that really sense of context. And it hasn't been easy. It's taken time to get there and you can't involve. I give an example of 20,000 people responded to a survey. You know, it doesn't have to be huge amounts of data. The voice of one or two people could be enough to provide unique insights. They give you a real sense of purpose and really give you a sense of what you're trying to change >> right? The third piece, he talked about the third leg of the stool, if you will. His culture. Onda geun driving, innovation of culture and your example you gave him the key note was phenomenal, which is when your team, you know, found a problem and asked you for approval on the $500 fixes. And you said, you know, empower your people to find the problem to solve the problems out Me and I think it's such a great message. And you spoken depth about learning about a screw up a failure and really identifying that as a terrific learning opportunity. You know, where did you learn about that kind of cultural approach? How do you keep that up? Because that is really the key to scale. And I think so many people are afraid to trust and afraid to have kind of blameless. Blameless postmortems is another phrase that we've heard so important to enabling your people to actually go out and accept. It's not easy, >> and how do we learn, Like all good things we did on the fly like if you're facing a situation where you've got a major piece of work that's kind of screwed up, and it doesn't do what you think it's gonna do. We had two choices. We could try to fix it, and I just knew we weren't gonna get there. It's a really using it as an opportunity toe positively reinforce what we should be doing that was learning. We had a really narrow opportunity to learn and learn in an in depth way. And how do we develop that culture we had to spend that time? It was really consciously thinking about when you got a team who are not feeling a lot of love there really worried. They actually concerned for their jobs, refocusing their their effort, giving them conference, telling them I've got your back and ultimately it helped us create this coach where people can proactively go out there and solve problems and my example of the business case or a showcase every single time we will go for the showcase, getting people to talk about how they're solving these problems, what is the problem and actually putting a proof of concept in or showing us that an example of what it looks like that's taken a long time to develop that culture, however, it's been absolutely worth it. >> Yeah, that's great. And you gave you gave the audience three challenges. At the end of the day, I was pretty interesting that weren't in there because they kind of encapsulated there kind of your key three themes that was, you know, really understand the problem you're trying to solve. I talked to people in the community. I like that. Don't presume you know what's going on. Talk to people. And then the last thing is encouraged. Three people to start working on the problem. Don't start working on it yourself. But again, you know you're going to have such a good grasp on engaging the team to the benefit of the whole great great messages >> over the year. Or didn't appreciate the homework I gave them to go. Go back to their desks on Monday morning and try these things. But I firmly believe that you know those three challenges and they're only small like this is not about trying to solve world hunger. This is just starting with something small in your business that you can look at. You can get two of your people 23 other people to focus on that validated the problem and look for ways around it. So it doesn't have to be a huge a group of people just getting a stock. And I've already talked to a number papal off to the canine who who really said that really resonated just starting that conversation. Small in that that I did a snowball and eventually growing as part of the organization. Right culture is something which takes a huge amount of time to get right, and I go in starting small one and letting that grow and permeate and do as much as you can do to reinforce that culture within your organization. Really living and breathing that cultures is important. But >> even those starting small your guys goals were huge. I mean, your goals are to cut to cut the prostate and the testicular percent, 50% and drop the suicides by 3/4. So, you know, it's a really interesting approach. Start small, you know, focus on the small, but but you clearly have a really big goal is my >> goal, and we know we can't achieve those goals by ourselves so way collaborate as much as we can with others who have similar missions and trying to band together. And we realized very early on that bringing together the best and brightest minds in the world to solve these problems was absolutely essential. We couldn't do it myself. So forming those network says global networks of experts researching constantly evaluating that research, making sure we're having to cut through and with nests in the process of scale in those programs that have shown great outcomes to reach the lives of means of men. So it's again starting small, proving these ideas out there looking to scour those ideas to reach frankly means in England. >> All right, Byron, we're almost out of time. We've got about 10 weeks until the month. Formally. No, it's November for >> me knowing this. So how do >> people get involved? What should people do? Give us give us some concrete tips for the audio? >> Absolutely, absolutely. So, first of all, you want to go to moveon dot com and you want to sign up, Sign up to be a mobile. Almost Easter, you can either grow a mustache. You can host in the van. You can move for Movember start donating, and it's like any people to die tonight. So grow a mustache and asking me to give you money. That's the 1st 1 to do it. Second tip is what sort of moustache gonna grow. There's so many styles. There's the >> little style guide on the course, But not everyone >> can go. We could, Tash, but, uh, we do have wards for the line, Mark. So some of those >> little lame of the Lane >> Mart I can always always recommend some augmentation of the mustache if you got a few gray hairs and maybe bush it out. A little bit of color lamentation. Something like that. Um, but above all else, it doesn't live. Use one message. It's about getting yourself checked. When things don't feel normal, go to the doctor, have that positive impact on your life. And, of course, Movember dot com is full of really useful tips and great content to help you on that journey. >> All right. Well, Byron, thanks to you very much. And again. Congrats on the keynote. Thank you. Seem really enjoyed the time. Excellent. Thank you. Alright, He's tired. I'm Jeff. You're watching The key were eight of us imagined nonprofit in Seattle, Washington. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time

>> Live from San Francisco. It's the cube covering IBM thing twenty nineteen brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome back to Mosconi North here in San Francisco, California. I'm student of my co host, A Volante. We're in day three of four days live. Walter. Wall coverage here at IBM think happened. Welcome back to the program. Talk about one of our favorite topics. Cube alarm. Steve Hill, who's the global head of innovation. That topic I mentioned from KPMG, Steve, welcome back to the program. >> Seems to have made good to see you. >> All right. So, you know, we know that the the only constant in our industry is change. And, you know, it's one of those things. You know, I look at my career, it's like innovation. Is it a buzz word? You know? Has innovation stalled out of the industry? But you know, you're living it. You you're you're swimming in it. Talkinto a lot of people on it. KPMG has lots of tools, so give us the update from from last year. >> Well, I think you know, we talked about several things last year, but innovation was a key theme. And and when I would share with you, is that I think across all industries, innovation as a capability has become more mature and more accepted, still not widely adopted across all industries and all competitors and all kinds of companies. But the reality is, innovation used to be kind of one person's job off in the closet today. I think a lot of organizations or realizing you have to have corporate muscle that is as engaged as in changing the status quo as the production muscle is in maintaining the status quo has >> become a cultural. >> It's become part of culture, and so I think innovation really is part of the evolution of corporate governance as far as I'm >> concerned. What one thing I worry about a little bit is, you know, I see a company like IBM. They have a long history of research that throws off innovation over the years. You know, I grew up, you know, in the backyard of Bell Labs and think about the innovation a drove today, the culture you know, faster, faster, faster and sometimes innovation. He does sit back. I need to be able to think longer, You know? How does how does an innovation culture fit into the ever changing, fast paced you? No need to deliver ninety day shot clock of reality of today. >> Well, I think innovation has to be smart, meaning you have to be able to feed the engines of growth. So your horizon one, if you will, of investments and your attention and efforts have to pay off the short term. But you also can't be strategically stupid and build yourself into an alleyway or to our corner, because you're just too short term thought through. Right? So you need to have a portfolio of what we call Horizon three blended with Horizon one and Horizon two types investment. So your short term, your middle term and your longer term needs are being met. Of course, if you think about it like a portfolio of investments, you're going tohave. Probably a smaller number of investments that air further out, more experimental and a larger proportion of them going to be helping you grow. You could say, almost tactically or sort of adjacent to where you are today, incrementally. But some of those disruptive things that you work on an H three could actually change your industry. Maybe you think about today where we are. Azan Economy intangibles are starting to creep into this notion of value ways we've never seen before. Today, the top five companies in terms of net worth all fundamentally rely on intangibles for their worth. Five years ago, it was one or two, and I would argue that the notion of intangibles, particularly data we'll drive a lot of very transformative types of investments for organizations going forward. So you've got to be careful not to starve a lot of those longer term investments, >> right? And it's almost become bromide. Large companies can innovate, but those five companies just mentioned well alluded to Amazon. Google, etcetera Facebook of Apple, Microsoft there, innovators, right? So absolutely and large companies innovate. >> Yes, clearly, yeah, but you have to have muscle, but it doesn't happen by accident, and you do put discipline and process and rigor and tools and leadership around innovation. But it's a different kind of discipline than you need in the operation, so I'll make him a ratio that makes sense. Maybe ninety five percent production, five percent innovation in an organization. That innovation engine is always challenging that ninety five percent Are you good enough? Are you relevant enough? Are you fast enough? Are you agile enough? You need that in every corporate organization in terms of governance to stay healthy and relevant overtime. >> So it's interesting. You know, I was in a session that Jack Welch talk wants, and he's like, I hear big companies can innovate is like big companies made up of people. People are the things that can innovate absolute. But, you know, I've worked in large organizations. We understand that the fossilization process and the goto market that you have, you know, will often kill, you know, those new flowers that are blooming, what separates the people that can drive innovation on DH? You know, put those positive place and kind of the also rans that, you know get left behind window disruption. >> Well, there's several. There's a couple things that I would highlight of a longer list, one of them we culture. I mean, I think innovation has been part of a culture. People in the institution have value innovation and want to be part of it. And there is, you know, a role that everyone can play. Just because you're in operations, if you will, doesn't mean you ignore change or you ignore the opportunity to improve the status quo. But you still have you get paid to operate what I find that is related to culture that gets a lot of people, you know, slow down or or roadblock is the disconnect between the operating part of the business and the innovative part of the business. If you try, if you build them to separately, what happens is you have a disconnection. And if you innovate the best idea in the world over here. But you can't scale it with production, you lose. So you have to make sure that, as as a leader overall, the entire enterprise you build those connections, rotations, leadership, You know, How do you engage the production, you know, engine into the innovation engine? It's to be very collaborative. It should be seamless. You know, everyone likes to say that, but that word, but relative seamlessness is, is heavy architecture. You've gotto build that, you know, collaboration into your model of of how you innovate >> and >> don't innovate in the vacuum. >> And it comes back to the cultural aspects we're talking about. Do you mentioned the ninety day shot? Clocks were here in the Bay Area. Silicon Valley. The most innovative place in the world. They've lived along the ninety day shot clock forever, and it seems to have not heard that so called short term thinking. Why is that? >> Well, there's so much start up here. I mean, at the end of the day, there is so much churn of new thinking and start up in V C. And there's so much activity that it's almost a microcosm, right? Not every place in the world smells, feels, looks like Silicon Valley, right? And the reason for it is in part because there's just so much innovation in what happens here. And these things change me. If you think about, uh, these unicorns that we have today. Today there's about three hundred ninety one unicorns. Just five years ago, there were one hundred sixty globally on before that. Hardly people didn't know they were hardly recognized. But that's all coming from pockets of innovation like Silicon Valley. So I'd argue that what you have here is an interesting amalgamation of culture being part of a macro environment region that that really rewards innovation and demonstrates that in in market valuations in capital raises, I mean, today one hundred million dollars capital raise is pretty common, especially for unicorns. Five, ten years ago. You never see me. It was very difficult to get a hundred million dollars capital, right? >> You mean you're seeing billion dollar companies do half a billion dollars raises today? I mean, it's >> all day, right? And some of them don't make a profit. Which is I mean, and that's kind of the irony, Which is, Are those companies? What did they get that the rest of us, you know, there was that live on Wall Street right out of in New York. What do we not see? Is that some secret that downstream there will be some massive inflow? Hard to say. I mean, look at Amazon is an example. They've used an intangible to take industries out that they were never in before they started selling books, and they leverage customer behavior data to move into other spaces. And this is kind of the intangible dynamic. And the infection >> data was the fuel for the digital disruption to travel around the world. You see that folks outside of Silicon Valley are really sort of maybe creating new innovation recipes? >> Yes. I think that what you see here is starting to go viral right on DH way that KPMG likes to share a holistic way to look at this for our clients. What is what we call the twenty first century enterprise. So the things that we used to do in the twentieth century to be successful, hire people, build more machines, right? You know, buy more assets, hard, durable assets. Those things don't necessarily give you the recipe for success in the twenty first century. And if you look at that and you think about the intangibles work that's been well written about there's there's all kinds of press on this today. You'll start to realize that the recipe for success in this new century is different, and you can't look at it in a silo to say, Okay, so I've gotta change my department or I've got a I've got to go change, You know, my widgets. What you've got to think is that your entire enterprise and so are construct called the twenty first Century prize. Looks at four things. Actually, it's five, and the fifth one is the technologies to enable change in the other four. And those technologies we talk about here and I have made him think which are, you know, cloud data, smart computers or a blockchain, etcetera. But those four pillars our first customer. How do you think about your customer experience today? How do you rethink your customer experience tomorrow? I think the customer dynamic, whether it's generational or it's technologically driven, change is happening more rapidly today than ever. And looking at that front office and the customer dementia, it is really important. The second is looking at your acid base. The value of your assets are changing, and intangibles are big category of that change. But do your do your hard assets make the difference today and forward. Or all these intangibles. Companies that don't have a date a strategy today are at peril of falling victim to competitors who will use data to come through a flank. And Amazons done that with groceries, right? The third category is as a service capabilities. So if you're growing contracting going into new markets are opening new channels. How do you build that capability to serve that? Well, there's a phenomenon today that we know is, you know, I think, very practised, but usually in functions called as a service by capability on the drink instead of going out and doing big BPO deals. Think about a pea eye's. Think about other kinds of ways of get access to build and scale very fucks Pierre your capabilities and in the last category, which actually is extremely important for any change you make elsewhere is your workforce. Um, culture is part of that, right? And a lot of organizations air bringing on chief culture officers. We and KPMG did the same thing, but that workforce is changing. It's not just people you hire into your four walls today. You've got contingent workforce. You have gig economy, workforce a lot of organizations. They're leveraging platform business models to bring on employees to either help customers with help. Dex needs or build code for problems that they like to solve for free. So when you talk about productivity, which we talked about last year and you start thinking about what's separating the leaders from a practical standpoint from the laggers from practically standpoint, a lot of those attributes of changing customer value of assets as a service growth and workforce are driving growth and productivity for that subset of our community and many injured. >> So when you look at the firm level you're seeing some real productivity gains versus just paying attention to the macro >> Correct, any macro way think proactive is relatively flat, and that's not untrue. It's because the bottom portion the laggards aren't growing. In fact, productivity is in many ways falling off, but the ones that are the frontier of those top ten percent fifteen hundred global clients we've looked at, uh, you know, you see that CD study show that they're actually driving growth and productivity substantially, and the chasm is getting larger. >> So, Steve, Steve, it's curious what this means for competition. I think about if I'm using external workforces in open source communities, you know, Cloud and I, you know, changes in the environment. A supposed toe I used to kind of have my internal innovation. Now I'm out in these communities s O You know, we're here than IBM show. You know, I think back the word Coop petition. I first heard in context of talking about how IBM works with their ecosystem. So how did those dynamics change of competition and innovation in this? You know, the gig. Economy with open source and cloud. May I? Everywhere. >> Big implications. I mean, I I think you know, and this is the funny point you made is nontraditional competitors, because I think most of our clients and ourselves recognized that we haven't incredible amount of nontraditional competitors entering our space in professional services. We have companies that are not overtly going after our space, but are creating capabilities for our clients to do for themselves what we used to do for them. Data collection, for example, is one of those areas where clients used to spend money for consultants coming in to gather data into aggregate data with tools today that's ah, a very short process, and they do it themselves. So that's a disintermediation or on bundling of our business. But every business has these types of competitive non Trish competitive threats, and what we're seeing is that those same principles that we talked about earlier of the twenty first century surprise applies, right? How are they leveraging there the base and how they leveraging their workforce? Are they? Do they have a data strategy to think through? Okay, what happens if somebody else knows more about my customers than I do? Right? What does that do to make those kinds of questions need to be asked an innovation as a capability I think is a good partner and driving that nothing I would say, is that eco systems and you made you mention that word, and I want to pick up on that. I mean, I think eco systems air becoming a force in competitive protection and competitive potential going forward. If you think about a lot of you know, household names relative Teo data, you know Amazon's one of them. They are involved in the back office in the middle ofthis have so many organizations they're in integrated in those supply chains. Value change, I think services firms, and particularly to be thinking about how do they integrate into the supply chains of their customers so that they transcend the boars of, you know, their four walls, those eco systems and IBM was We consider KPMG considers IBM to be part of our ecosystem, right? Um, as well as other technology. >> So they're one of one of the things we're hearing from IBM. Jenny talked about it yesterday, and her keynote was doubling down on trust. Essentially one. Could you be implying that trust is a barrier to ay? Ay adoption is that. Is that true? Is that what your data show? >> We we we see that very much in spades. In fact, um, you know, I I if you think about it quite frankly, our oppa has driven a lot of people to class to class three. Amalgamation czar opportunities. But what's happening is we're seeing a slowdown because the price of some of these initials were big. But trust, culture and trust are big issues. In fact, we just released recently. Aye, Aye. And control framework, which includes methods and tools assessments to help our clients that were working with the city of Amsterdam today on a system for their citizens that helped them have accountability. Make sure there's no bias in their systems. As a I systems learn and importantly, explain ability. Imagine, you know. Ah, newlywed couple going into a bank to get a house note and having the banker sit back and have his Aye, aye, driven. You know, assessment for mortgage applicability. Come up moored. Recommend air saying no. You Ugh. I can't offer you a mortgage because my data shows you guys going to be divorced, right? We don't want to tell it to a newlywed couple, right? So explain ability about why it's doing what it's doing and put it in terms that relate to customer service. I mean, that's a pretty it's a silly example, but it's a true example of the day. There's a lot of there's a lack of explain ability in terms of how a eyes coming up with some of its conclusions. Lockbox, right? So a trusted A I is a big issue. >> All right, Steve, Framework that you just talked about the twenty first century enterprise. Is there a book or their papers? So I just go to the website, Or do I need to be a client? Read more about, >> you know, absolutely. You can go to our website, kpmg dot com and you can get all the della you want on the twenty first century enterprise. It talks to how we connect our customers front to middle toe back offices. How they think about those those pillars, the technologies we can help them with. Make change happen there, etcetera. So I appreciate it that >> we'll check it out that way. Don't be left in the twentieth century. Come on. >> No, you can't use twentieth century answers to solve twenty first century challenges, right? >> Well, Steve, he'll really appreciate giving us the twenty first century update for day. Volante on student will be back with our next guest here. IBM think twenty nineteen. Thanks for watching you.

>> From Union Square in downtown San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering PagerDuty Summit '18. Now here's Jeff Frick. >> Hey welcome back, everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're at PagerDuty Summit 2018 at the Westin St. Francis in Union Square, San Francisco. Great event, 900 people, we're excited to be here, it's our second year, and now we get to talk to some customers, which we are always excited to do. And our next guest is Alan Alderson. He is the Director of IT Ops for William Hill. Great to see you. >> Afternoon, it's great to be here. >> Absolutely, so for people that aren't familiar with William Hill, what are you guys all about? >> So William Hill offer customers opportunities to place bets on sporting events, presidential elections, snow at Christmas, you name it. We present about a million opportunities every week for customers to have a bet on. >> A million opportunities a week? >> Yeah, so picking on football matches, you know the game of the ramble. So we have opportunities for people to bet playing up to the game, and then once the game kicks off, we transition into what's called in play, so people can then place a bet on who's going to score the next goal, and about another 120 markets within that one game whilst the game's in play. >> Wow, so what's the average duration of the window to put a bet down? >> So generally leading up to the match it's as much time as you want, as soon as the markets are out there you can place the bet before the game kicks off. >> Okay. >> But once the game kicks off, you can, right up until about towards the last few minutes of the game, there'll be markets available to have a bet on. >> Okay, and then what percentage is kind of things that I would guess easily, like sporting events or those types of things, versus you know, whether it's going to snow or not? >> Well we provide the opportunities on the website, so you can have a look and, you know it's snow on Christmas day is a popular bet. People do their research, and they like to have a bet on it. There is a lot of novelty bets. There used to be, you know, life being found on Mars, Elvis being found, et cetera. So there's a lot >> Still taking action on Elvis? >> I don't think so. >> I thought we'd find him. So we're here at PagerDuty Summit. What are you doing here at PagerDuty Summit? >> So I've just come back from a stint in Australia, working for the William Hill business over there. So we introduced PagerDuty over there to help out with just getting the right message out to the right support teams quickly. So we deployed it out there, and we just brought it in to do infrastructure to start with but once we deployed it, it's a bit of a ripple effect. So it was like dropping a pebble into a pool, the ripple effect, and everybody, they seem to be doing all right over there, they use it now for the support models and so those sorts of questions. It's very quick how the other teams decided to latch onto PagerDuty as well. So I since moved back to the UK. So I moved back in January, took on this role back in the Leeds office in the north of England, and one of the first things I said is, guys, start having a look at PagerDuty, we've deployed it successfully in Australia, so let's have a look at what it can do for us. And so management works at William Hill. So I'm not trying to fix anything that's broken. So, it works. But what we can do is increase its speed of how we deal with things. So there's a lot of manual tasks in there that PagerDuty will come in and automate. It will take the pressure off the incident analysts 'cause, you know if there's an incident at two o'clock in the morning, we have 24 by seven business, so if there's an incident overnight, we've got to get on it and start fixing, resolving the incident. And if there's one guy who's trying to call out a number of responders, calling out a duty manager, trying to get comms out, it's a lot of pressure on one person to do that, and when there's pressure mistakes happen. I want PagerDuty to take away the possibility of the mistakes, take the pressure of the incident analyst, so they can focus on resolving the incident and getting service back to our customers as quickly as possible. >> I'm curious though when you said that other people and other groups saw PagerDuty in action. What were some of the other tasks that were not the primary tasks that you brought it in, where people saw value and are implementing it for some other types of activities? >> So initially when we put it in, we put it in purely for service. So for looking at the CPU disk and memory alerts. And we were getting our acknowledgements down from minutes to seconds in Australia. So the other teams are watching in, and within their applications there was a lot of alerts just landing as an email and not getting actioned upon very quickly. So we brought PagerDuty in, they said, can this help out in this space, and they started integrating it into their applications. So through hooking it into their applications they could get the alerts directly from PagerDuty, rather than it going through knocks and service decks et cetera, so it's just a quicker response and get 'em onto the issue quicker. >> And do you have it integrated in with some of your other development tools so it's just kind of part of whole process, or is it more kind of standalone notification system? >> It was integrated straight into ServiceNow and PagerDuty. PagerDuty would integrate with ServiceNow, raise the ticket, and then the things started moving. But the big win was getting the guys the call straight away as that alert happened. Otherwise you're relying on people watching screens, watching queues, waiting for that to happen, and then make the call. So if the call's gone straight to the engineer, he's on it immediately. >> Right, right, right. So what are some of your impressions here? Seeing kind of the ecosystem, what's behind PagerDuty, some great keynotes earlier today, really in terms of, again, the mission it sounds like it's very much in line with what you're trying to do, which is to help teams be more effective. >> Yeah, and what I like about PagerDuty is their passion. You just get a sense of urgency about this place, and you get a sense of passion and commitment, and they want to help people out, and that's what's drawn me to PagerDuty. The guys I worked with in Australia, the guys I worked with in the UK, they just can't do enough for you, and they want to help you succeed as well. You know, you deals with some companies that, they just want to sell you something and move on. These guys are, you know, they look after you, they work with you and they make sure that you're getting the value out of their product. >> It's a pretty interesting culture, 'cause when I talked to Jennifer Tejada a couple of years ago, I used to tease her, I'm like, nobody here knows what a pager is, right? Nobody was born when pagers were >> I had one. >> the rage. >> You had one, yeah, I had one. Shell Oil upside down, I think it says hello, I can't remember, I have to check that. But it's an interesting, there's kind of culture around what a pager represents, and the work that they have duty in there as well, which is a very different kind of level of responsibility when you are the person with the pager on, and that seems to have really carried forward in the way that they deliver the services. >> Yeah, yeah. I mean, on-call has people running, doesn't it? When people, you know when they join a job and go, "Oh you might be expected to be on call", they run a mile, and they think that's not for me. But as we go down more of a DevOps transformation and we get a lot more down the we code it, we own it model, I think it'll change people's perceptions of being on call and just doing the right thing for the business, rather thank, you know, delivering something and expecting the Ops team to fix it all the time and call out the developers at a third line. We should be, we are heading towards being a team, where the alerts go to the right people at the right time, and we get issues resolved as soon as possible. >> Right. I'd just love to get your take on, a lot of talk about digital transformation, and the modernization of IT, and kind of expected behavior on apps going on. You're right in the middle of it. >> Massively in the middle of it. >> Massively in the middle of it, right. I'm sure, what percentage of your bets come in via mobile versus... >> On the digital platform, over 56%. >> A lot, right, a lot. >> And we've got, just said in the last session we had is, we've got competition. So if our app isn't performing, it isn't quick, or it's down, people will go elsewhere. They've got options, they've got choices, and they'll just go elsewhere. And the challenge is getting those customers back. We want to have a stack that just is available and is performing, so we don't drive customers away, or we make sure that things are available at peak times, so when they are wanting to bet on the Super Bowl, the Grand National, the three o'clock kickoffs on a Saturday afternoon in the UK, it's available for them and people can get the bet on as quickly as possible. >> Right. So do you have all your own infrastructure, or do you leverage public cloud? I'm just thinking as you're talking about Super Bowl and some of these other big events, you must have just crazy big spikes. >> You know we've, in the UK it's all on-premise, so we've got to build an infrastructure to cope with that one day of the year, which is Grand National. In the US, we've just opened up in New Jersey. The front end of that stack is in AWS, so we can scale, so when Super Bowl does turn round next January, February, we should be able to scale with the load. >> Right, last question before I let you go. What are your priorities next? What are some of the things that you're working on with your team, to kind of stay at the leading edge of this very competitive space? >> Yeah we're heading into AWS. So we're looking to move into Amazon next year, start migrating some applications in there, and we're looking to get some applications in there the back end of this year, but migrate the existing apps from the start of next year. We're going through a DevOps transformation. We've been doing an agile transformation as well over the last 12 to 18 months, so there's a huge amount of digital transformation going on at William Hill at the moment. It's a very, very exciting place to be. The US expansion, the place has just gone mad, you know. There's a lot going on, it's just a great place to be. >> Yeah, I mean significant changes obviously in the US attitude, I think you guys are a little more progressive on that side of the Atlantic. Big changes happening here. >> 14th of May was a big day, PASPA being repealed has opened up the betting opportunities in any state that wants to regulate. And we are leading the way in that charge at the moment, so it's very exciting. >> All right, well I'm going to let you go so you can get some sleep, 'cause I'm sure you're a very busy man. Alan, thanks for stopping by. >> Thank you very much. >> All right, he's Alan, I'm Jeff, you're watching theCUBE, we're at PagerDuty Summit 2018, thanks for watching.

>> From Boston, Massachusetts, it's the Cube, covering LiveWorx 18, brought to you by PTC. (light electronic music) >> Welcome back to Boston, everybody. This is the Cube, the leader in live tech coverage. We're covering day one of the LiveWorx conference that's hosted by PTC. I'm Dave Vellante with my cohost Stu Miniman. Professor Linda A. Hill is here. She's the Wallace Brett Donham Professor of Business Administration at the Harvard Business School. Professor Hill, welcome to the Cube. Thanks so much for coming on. >> Thank you for having me. >> So, innovation, lot of misconceptions about innovation and where it stems from. People think of Steve Jobs, well, the innovation comes from a single leader and a visionary who gets us in a headlock and makes it all happen. That's not really how innovation occurs, is it? >> No, it is not, actually. Most innovation is the result of a collaboration amongst people of different expertise and different points of view, and in fact, unless you have that diversity and some conflict, you rarely see innovation. >> So this is a topic that you've researched, so this isn't just an idea that you had. You've got proof and documentation of this, so tell us a little more about the work that you do at Harvard. >> So really over 10 years ago, I began to look at the connection between leadership and innovation, because it turns out that like a lot of organizations, the academy is quite siloed, so the people studying innovation were very separate from the ones who studied leadership, and we look at the connection between the two. When you look at that, what you discover is that leading innovation is actually different from leading change. Leading change is about coming up with a vision, communicating that vision, and inspiring people to want to fulfill that vision. Leading innovation is not about that. It's really more about how do you create a space in which people will be willing and able to do the kind of collaborative work required for innovation to happen? >> Sometimes I get confused, maybe you can help me, between invention and innovation. How should we think about those two dimensions? >> Innovation and invention. The way I think about it is an innovation is something that's both an invention, i.e. new, plus useful. So it can be an innovation or it can be creative, but unless it's useful and addresses an opportunity or a challenge that an organization faces, for me, that's not an innovation. So you need both, and that is really the paradox. How do you unleash people's talents and passions so you get the innovation or the invention or the new, and then how do you actually combine that, or harness all of those different ideas so that you get something that is useful, that actually solves a problem that the collective needs solved? >> So there's an outcome that involves changing something, adoption, as part of that innovation. >> For instance, one of the things that we're doing a lot right now is we're working with organizations, incumbents, I guess you'd call them, that have put together these innovation labs to create digital assets. And the problem is that those digital assets get created, they're new, if you will, but unless the core business will adopt them and use them, they get implemented, they're not going to be useful. So we're trying to understand, how do you take what gets created in those innovation labs, those assets, if you will, and make sure that the organization takes them in and scales them so that you can actually solve a business problem? >> Professor Hill, a fascinating topic I love digging into here. Because you see so many times, startups are often people that get frustrated inside a large company. I've worked for some very large companies, so which have had labs, or research division, and even when you carve aside time for innovation, you do programs on that, there's the corporate antibodies that fight against that. Maybe talk a little bit about that dynamic. Can large companies truly innovate? >> Yes, large companies can truly innovate. We do see it happening, it is not easy by any means, and I think part of the dilemma for why we don't see more innovation is actually our mindset about what leadership is about and who can innovate. So if I could combine a couple of things you asked, invention, often when we talk to people about what is innovation, they think about technology, and they think about new, and if I'm not a technologist and I'm not creative, then I can't play the game. But what we see in organizations, big ones that can innovate, is they don't separate out the innovators from the executors. They tell everybody, guess what, your job no matter who you are, of course you need to deal with making sure we get done what we said we'd deliver, but if we're going to delight our customers or we're ever going to really get them to be sticky with us, you also need to think about not just what should you be doing, but what could you be doing. In the literature, in the research, that's called how do you close an opportunity gap and not just a performance gap? In the organizations we look at that are innovative, that can innovate time and again, they have a very democratic notion: everybody has a role to play. So our work, Collective Genius, is called Collective Genius because what we saw in Pixar was the touchstone for that work, is that they believe everybody has a slice of genius. They're not equally big or whatever, but everybody has a contribution to make, and you need to use yours to come up with what's new and useful. A lot of that will be incremental, but some of it will be breakthrough. So I think what we see with these innovation labs and the startups, if you will, is that often people do go to start them up, of course they eventually have to grow their business, so a part of what I find myself doing now is helping startups that have to scale, figure out how to maintain that culture, those capabilities, that allowed them to be successful in the first place, and that's tough one for startups, right? >> Yeah, I think Pixar's only about a 1,500 person company and they all have creativity in wat they do. I'm wondering if there's some basic training that's missing. I studied engineering and I didn't get design training in my undergraduate studies. It wasn't until I was out in the workforce that I learned about that. What kind of mindset and training do you have to do to make sure the people are open to this? >> One of the things that I did related to this is about five years ago, I told our dean of Harvard Business School that I needed to join the board of an organization called Arts Center. I don't know if you were aware of Arts Center in Pasadena. It's the number one school of industrial design in the U.S., and people don't know about it 'cause I always laugh at them. The man who designed the Apple store is a graduate there. The man who designed Tesla car and et cetera, so they're not so good at it, but one of the things that we've all come to understand is design thinking, lean startup, these are all tools that can help you be better at innovation, but unless you create an environment around that, people are going to be willing to use those tools and make the missteps, the failures that might come with it, know how to collaborate together, even when they're a large organization, I mean it's easier when you're smaller. But unless you know how to do all that, those tools, the lean startup or digital or design thinking or whatever, ' cause I'm working with a lot of the people who do that, and deep respect for them, nothing gets done. In the end, we are human, we all need to know first off that it's worthwhile to take the risk to get done whatever it is you want to get done, so what's the purpose of the work, how's it going to change the world? The second thing is we need to share a set of values about learning because we have to understand, as you well know, you cannot plan your way to an innovation, you have to act your way. And with the startup, you act as fast as you can, right, so somebody will give you enough money before you run out of money. Same similar process you have to do in a large company, an incumbent, but of course it's more complicated. The other thing that makes it more complicated is companies are global, and the other part of it that makes it more complicated that I'm seeing like in personalized medicine: you need to build an ecosystem of different kinds, of nanotechnologists, biotechnologists, different expertise to come together. All of this, frankly, you don't learn any of it in school. I remember learning that you can't teach anyone how to lead. You actually have to help people learn how to lead themselves and technologists will frequently say to me, i don't know why, you're a leadership professor? Well, this is a technical problem. We just haven't figured out the platform right, and once we get it right, all will be. No, once you get it right, humans are still going to resist change and not know how to necessarily learn together to get this done. >> I wonder if, are there any speacial leadership skills we need for digital transformation? Really kind of the overarching theme of the show here, help connect the dots for us. >> So the leading change piece is about having a vision, communicating it, and inspiring people. What it really does turn out when we look at exceptional leaders of innovation, and all of us would agree that they've done wonderful things time and again, not just once, they understand that is collective. They spend time building a culture and capabilities that really will support people collaborating together. The first one they build is, how do we know how to create a marketplace of ideas through debate and discourse? Yeah, you can brainstorm, but eventually, we have to abrade and have conflict. They know how to have healthy debates in which people are taught terms of skills, basic stuff, not just listening and inquiring, but how to actively advocate in a constructive way for your point of view, these leaders have to learn how to amplify difference, whereas many leaders learn how to minimize it. And as the founder of Pixar once said, you can never have too many cooks in the kitchen. Many people believe you can. It's like today, you need as much talent as you can get. Your job as a leader, what are the skills you need to get those top cooks to be able to cook a meal together, not to reduce the amount of diversity. You got to be prepared for the healthy fight. >> You've pointed this out in some of your talks is that you've got to have that debate. >> Yes, you have to. >> That friction, to create innovation, but at the same time it has to be productive. I know it can be toxic to an organization, maybe talk about that a little. >> I think one of the challenges is what skills do people need to learn? One is, how do you deal with conflict when people are very talented and passionate? I think many people avoid conflict or don't know how to engage that constructively, just truly don't, and they avoid it. I find that many times organizations aren't doing what they need to do because the leadrr is uncomfortable. The other thing, and I'm going to stereotype horribly here, but I'm an introvert, that book quiet is wonderful, but one of the challenges you have if you're more introverted or if you're more technical and you tend to look at things from a technical point of view, in some ways is that you often find the people with that kind of, that's what drives them, there's a right answer, there's a rational answer we need to get through or get to, as opposed to understanding that really innovative ideas are often the combination of ideas that look like they're in conflict initially, and by definition, you need to have the naive eye and the expert working together to come up with that innovative solution, so for someone who's a technologist to think they should listen to someone who's naive about a technical problem, just the very basic mindset you have about who's going to have the idea. So that's a tricky one, it's a mindset, it's not even just a skill level, it's more, who do you think actually is valuable? Where is that slice that you need at this moment going to come from? It may not be from that expert, it may be from the one who had no point of view. I heard a story that I was collecting my data, and apparently, Steve Jobs went to see Ed Land. We're here in Boston over Polaroid, which is one of our most innovative companies, right, in the history. And he said, what do I need to learn from you? And what Land said to him is, whenever my scientist and technologist get stuck, I have some of the art students or the humanities students come in and spend time in the lab. They will ask the stupid question because they don't know it's stupid. The expert's not going to ask the stupid question, particularly the tech expert, not going to ask it. They will ask the question that gets the first principles. I think, but I wouldn't want to be held to this, the person who was telling me the story, that's partly how they came up with the instant camera. Some naive person said, why do I have to wait? Why can't I have it now? And of course, silly so-and-so, you don't know it takes this, that, and the others. Then someone else thought, why does she have to wait? I think it was really a she who asked the question, the person telling me this, and they came up with a different way. Who said it has to be done in a darkroom in that way? I think that there's certain things about our mindset independently of our skill, that get in the way of our actually hearing all the different voices we need to hear to get that abrasion going in the right way. >> Listening to those Columbo questions, you say, can sometime lead to an outcome that is radically different. There's a lot of conversation in our industry, the technology industry, about, we call it the cordially shock clock, the companies are on a cordially reporting mechanism or requirement from the SEC. A lot of complaints about that, but at the same time, it feels like at least in the tech business, that U.S. companies tend to be more innovative. But again, you hear a lot of complaints about, well, they can't think for the long term. Can you help us square that circle? >> It's funny, so one thing is you rarely ever get innovation without constraint. If you actually talk to people who are trying to innovate, there needs to be the boundaries around it in which they're doing the constraint. To be completely free rarely leads to, it is the constraint. Now we did do a study of boards to try to understand when is a board facilitating innovation and when is a board interfering with it? We interviewed CEOs and lead directors of a number of companies and wrote an article about that last year, and what we did find is many boards actually are seen as being inhibitors. They don't help management make the right decision. Then of course the board would say now management's the one that's too conservative, but this question about how the board, with guidance, and all of these issues have come up when you're looking at research analysts and who you play to, and I've been on corporate boards. One thing is that the CEO needs to know that the board is actually going to be supportive of his or her choices relative to how you communicate why you're making the choices you're making. So there is pressure, and I think it's real. We can't tell CEOs, no, you don't need to care about it, 'cause guess what, they do get in trouble if they don't. On the other hand, if they don't know how to make the argument for investing in terms of helping the company grow, so in the long run, innovation is not innovation for innovation's sake, it's to meet customer needs so you can grow, so you need to have a narrative that makes sense and be able to talk with people, the different stakeholders, about why you're making certain choices. I must say that I think that many times companies may be making the right choice for the long haul, and get punished in the short run, for sure that happens, but I also think that there are those companies that get a way with a lot of investment in the long haul, partly because they do, over time, deliver, and there is evidence that they're making the right choices or have built a culture where people think what they're saying might actually happen or be delivered. What's happening right now because of the convergence of industries, is I think a lot of CEOS, it's a frightening time, it is difficult to sustain success these days, because what you have to do is innovate at low cost. Going back to some other piece about boards, one of the things we've found is so many board members define innovation as being technology. Technology has a very important enabling role to play in otherwise, but they have such a narrow definition of it in a way that again, they create a culture to let the people in the innovation lab innovate, but not one where everybody understands that all of us, together, need to innovate in ways that will also prepare us to execute better. They don't see the whole culture transformation, digital transformation often requires cultural transformation for you to be able to get this stuff done, and that's what takes a long time. Takes a long time to get rid of your legacy systems and put in these new, or get that balance right, but what takes even longer is getting the culture to be receptive to using that new data capability they have and working in different ways and collaborating when they've been very siloed and they're paid to be very siloed. I think that unless you show, as a CEO, that you are actually putting all of those building blocks in place, and that's what you're about, you understand it's a transformation at that level, you're just talking to the analysts about, we're going to do x, and there's no evidence about your culture or anything else going on, how you're going to lead to attract and retain the kind of talent you need, no one's buying that, I think that that's the problem. There's not a whole story that they're telling about how this goes together and they're going to move forward on it. >> To your other point, is there data to suggest, can you quantify the relationship between diversity and innovation? >> There are some data about that, I don't have it. I find it's very funny, as you can see, I'm an African-American woman. My work is on leadership globalization and innovation. I do a lot of work on how you deliver global strategies. I often find when I'm working with senior teams, they'll ask me, would you help us with our inclusion effort? And I think it's partly because of who I am and diversity comes up in our work, and if you actually build the environments for talking about, they tend to be more inclusive about diversity of thought. Not demographic diversity, those can be separate as we well know because we know Silicon Valley is not a place where you see a lot of demographic diversity, but you might see diversity of thought. I haven't asked, it's interesting, I have had some invitations by governments, too. Japan, which has womenomics, which is a part of their policy If they need to get more women in the economy, frankly, otherwise they can't grow as an economy. It turns out that the innovation story is the business case that many businesses or business people find one that they can buy into, doesn't feel like you're doing it 'cause it's the right thing, or not that you shouldn't do the right thing, but helping them understand how you really, really make sure that the minority voice is heard, and I mean minority of thought, independent of demographic, but if you create an environment as a leader where you actually run your team so that people do feel they can speak up, as you all know. It's so often, I'll talk to people afterwards and they'll say, I didn't say what I really thought about those ideas because I didn't want to be punished or I didn't want to step in that person's territory. People are making decisions based on varying complete information everyone knows. What often happens is it gets escalated up. We had this one senior team complaining, everything is so slow here, a very big bank, not the one I'm on the board of, another very big bank we're working with. Everything's so slow, people won't do anything. So when we actually ask people, what's happening? Why aren't you making decisions? First off, decisions making rights are very fuzzy in this organization, except for at the very top, so what they say is all decisions, actually, they're made on the 34th floor. We escalate 'cause if you make a decision, they're going to turn it over anyway, so we've backed off, or we don't say what we think 'cause I don't want them to say what they think about my ideas 'cause we actually have very separate business units here. >> We might get shot. >> You might get shot. That's the reality that many people live in, so we're not surprised to see that not very many organizations can innovate time and again when we think about the reality of what our contexts are. The good news for us is that in part, millennials won't tolerate some of these environments in the same way, which is going to be a good thing. I think they're marvelous to work with, I'm not one of them obviously, but I think a lot of what they're requesting, the transparency, the understanding the connections between what they do and are they having impact, the desire to be developed and be learning, and wanting to be an organization they're not ashamed of but in fact they're very proud to be a part of what's happening there, I think that that requires businesses and leaders to behave differently. One of the businesses we studied, if the millennial wants to know who's on the front line, he or she is making a difference. They had to do finance differently to be able to show, to draw the cause and effect between what that person was doing every day and how it impacted the client's work. That ended up being a really interesting task. Or a supply chain leader, who really needed them to think very differently about supply chain so they could innovate. What he ended up doing is, instead of thinking about our customers being the pharmaceutical company, the CBS or the big hospital chain or whatever it is, think about the end customer. What would we have to do with supply chain to ensure that that end patient took his or her pill on time and got better? And when they shifted the whole meaning of the work to that individual patient in his or her home, he was able, over time, to get the whole supply chain group organization to understand, we're not doing what we need to do if we're really going to reduce diabetes in the world because the biggest problem we have is not when they go and get their medication, it's whether they actually use it properly when they're there. So when you switched it to that being the purpose of the work, the mindset that everyone had to have, that's what we're delivering on. Everyone said, oh, this is completely appropriate, we needed digital, we need different kind of data to know what's going on there. >> Don't get me started on human health. Professor Hill, for an introvert, you're quite a storyteller, and we appreciate you sharing your examples and your knowledge. Thanks so much for coming on the Cube. It was great to meet you. >> Been my pleasure, glad to know you, thank you. >> Keep it right there, everybody, Stu and I will be back right after this short break. You're watching the Cube from LiveWorx in Boston. We'll be right back. (light electronic music)

>> Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE covering DockerCon '18, brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, we are live at DockerCon 2018 on a stunning day in San Francisco at Moscone West. I'm Lisa Martin with John Troyer and we're excited to welcome two new folks to theCUBE from Skytap. We've got Lucas Welch, the senior director of communications and Hamish Hill, technical product marketing manager. Hey, guys. >> Great to be here, thanks for having us. >> And thanks for adding a lot of color, Lucas, to our set. >> Well, I just wanted to bring enough flair that you could realize I might have something interesting to say. >> Awesome, so speaking of interesting things, tell us about Skytap, what do you guys do, who are you, where are you based? >> Great, so Skytap. Founded in 2006, so relatively old by start-up standards but it's allowed us to learn a lot about where clouded option has been going. And what we've seen is there really is an overlooked challenge that enterprises are facing today, right? So, cloud native development, growing rapidly, gonna continue to develop, but what do you do with all your old stuff, your existing applications? And so Skytap is a cloud purpose-built for modernizing those traditional applications and we do that through a process we call IPA, although we don't advocate that you drink on the job. It's Infrastructure, Process, and Architecture. And the idea is to really get yourself to true modernization and making the most of cloud, and containers, and all of the modern technologies we can see on the show floor behind us, you first need to modernize the infrastructure, get yourself out of the data center. From there, in eliminating that barrier, you're gonna be able to modernize the processes. How do you develop, how do you change your applications? And by getting better in that regard, adopting things like DevOps and agile methodologies, finally you can start to make changes to the application themselves. So, in short order, we are the cloud for modernizing traditional applications and we like to see ourselves as complementary to the folks at AWS behind us and others who are best for that cloud native web scale development of new applications. >> Great conversation this morning at the Key Note about modernizing applications. I think it's on everybody's mind because the world does not start fresh and new every day, right? We all are working with things that we've been carrying, for some cases, for years and decades. So Docker is talking about, in fact we modernized a .NET application, I think, this morning so they showed a little bit of a demo with that and kubernetes. Can you talk a little bit about how you work with Docker and, you know, some of the challenges that you work with in terms of modernizing applications? >> Yeah, Docker has a great framework with what they have with their MTA. Actually, our VP of Product, Dan Jones, presented yesterday on making modernization magical and really looking at how Skytap complements what Docker has with their MTA framework. And I think Skytap provides, with our IPA approach, a great platform for enterprises to execute the Docker MTA approach and beyond that, sort of what Skytap provides is the abilities, sort of, to move out of the data center and get away from the hardware side of things, and start to leverage some of the scale that you can get out of the cloud. >> What are some of the things that an enterprise, that a legacy application expects that it's not gonna have if you just lift and shift it. You know, why do we need Skytap? >> Yeah, I think what's important to remember is often, even just lifting and shifting it is very difficult because if you want a monolithic or traditional application that's very much wed to the infrastructure it was built on five, 10, 15 years ago, taking that and putting it in a hyper scale provider often means you gotta rewrite from scratch and that's a really arduous process, often one that creates a skills challenge in and of itself because not only do you need people to manage the existing application, you need a whole set of new skills to take a cloud-like approach to that development. So that can create a lot of challenges and so what we see here at DockerCon, really the reason we're here, is both Docker and Skytap see the next wave of cloud, the next wave of modern development, is gonna be, "How do we bring all these benefits we've seen "in Cloud Native development "to those existing applications?" and what we see ourselves doing is eliminating that infrastructure barrier so then you can really start using containers to their full benefit, whether it's in Skytap cloud, in another cloud, or both. >> So, just to follow up a little bit. So it's not just some services like, I don't know, you've gotta have authentication, and you've gotta have storage, and you've gotta have all the things that an old legacy application, sitting in a data center, expects. But it sounds like, also, there's operational services as well and being able to operate with that kind of cloud-level agility? >> Yeah, what we provide with Skytap is, you know, we have a concept of a Skytap environment and so within that environment, you can have your traditional X86, sort of, VMware-based workloads. We also support IBM power systems. So we're the only cloud that can run AIX workloads and Linux on power and so alongside that, what we get is sort of the combination of being able to bring in containers as well and so as organizations go through that modernization journey, being able to receive or see value in the hybrid applications, sort of, along the way. >> We saw a lot of stats, thanks Lucas, this morning I think one of the first ones that I saw was in the press release that Docker released which was, this morning, 85% of enterprise organizations are running a multi-cloud strategy, so that's pretty pervasive. We're also seeing stats like, up to 90%, we had Scott Johnston on earlier, their Chief Product Officer, up to 90% of enterprises are spending, sorry. Enterprises are spending up to 90% of their IT budgets just keeping the lights on for traditional applications. As you said, lift and shift isn't practical for a number of reasons. You also talked about, you know, skill-set changes there. So I'm curious, what are some of the, kind of, common challenges you're seeing in the customer environment where they might be trepidatious to go to the container journey and how specifically does Skytap and Docker knock those out of the park? >> Yeah, well those stats, I think, are really indicative of the challenge and then the new approaches that companies are trying to take to solve that challenge which is, you have so much invested in what's made your company successful, and if you're a long-standing enterprise doing well on your market, you've been doing this for 10, 15, 20, maybe more, years and you've done very well to get yourself to where you are. You've invested millions, if not billions in your infrastructure, your talent, and the people that build the systems that run your business so to burn that all to the ground and start from scratch doesn't make a lot of sense and so, I think, one challenge you run into is inertia, right. It's like "Hey, we did well to get here, "why do we need to suddenly change everything we're doing?" And Skytap's recommendation is you don't need to change everything, but you do need to prepare to be able to change much more rapidly as our economy continues to be more driven by digital technique. So you have inertia as a challenge. I think you also have that idea that if you're spending 90%, as you said, right, of what you just got with the lights on, where's the money and where's the time gonna come for net new and how can you bring those two together? And so that's really where I think Skytap would play a big role is bridging that gap from where you are today, allowing you to leverage the people that you have, the skills that they have, the technology that you have invested in. So you don't have to throw that all out overnight. And instead you can get more and more value out of it as you bring it into the cloud, gain incremental agility, and then, over time, make the modernization and evolutionary changes you want to make based on business needs, not having technology drive what your business does. >> How much of that is a cultural change that you guys can help companies understand is essential? Because culture, change in culture is obviously, especially with large enterprises, they can't pivot that quickly, but culture is essential for a company to successfully undergo digital transformation. I'm just wondering, what kind of conversations are you seeing with that inertia? How much of it is culture needs to change and mindsets to embrace, you know, moving forward? >> Yeah, I mean, we see a lot of this in the conversations we have with customers. We see a lot of it comes out of the market from what analysts sort of have to say as well and I think reasons out of an analyst article that was shared sort of publicly so it talks about, actually, enterprises who have adopted DivOps first are actually more successful in the move to containerization and that's what we see, sort of, with the customers that come to us. And what we're able to provide and what the customers see in Skytap is, actually, the simplicity of the UI that we provide is, actually, a good step from what they currently have without sort of needing to get into what can often be multiple UI's and screens in some of the hyper scale cloud providers. And then on top of that, sort of, the on-demand access to environment so you're taking away, sort of, what is typically a reactive approach from corporate IT when they need to reach out and go, "Hey, I need "another environment or I need another BM like this." And these organizations, it's often taking maybe six to eight weeks to get those environments turned around. We can provision a complex environment in less than, sort of, 30 seconds in Skytap. So it enables those teams to be a lot more productive in what they're doing. And there's sort of the first phase of deciding to sort of adopt the changing culture before sort of even getting into that move from, sort of, after linking in with legacy applications, you've gotta waterfall SDLC, and so actually moving from there into, sort of, more agile approaches and looking at how you can increase release cadence and what, sort of, comes into that from a people aspect, and a process change, and a methodology, and how Skytap, sort of, supports that along with integration with other third party's automation tools as well. >> Yeah, I think you nailed it on the culture point and I just wanted to not forget about people as being a big part of culture, right? And you have, fear is a very real thing, right? Fear of change, fear of net new. And so in our own adoption of Docker, and containers, and kubernetes internally. SO our cloud runs on a very large kubernetes cluster of containerized services so internally, over the last few years, we went through our own modernization journey. And I think that, paired with some research we've seen, we recently did a study with 451 Research looking at what enterprise tech leaders are experiencing. The fear of change, the reticence to change, and then just the lack of knowledge of, "Okay, what is required of me?" Like, "You're asking me to change overnight. "All of a sudden I have to take classes at night "while I do my day job." I think these are really, very realistic and human questions to ask and I think you need to take that into account when you're looking at digital transformation, modernization, so thinking about, "Hey, how do we communicate, "with transparency, what we expect and the time frame?" Let's be upfront about the challenges we expect to run into and where we're gonna have problems and how we'll deal with those together. And make sure the communication is crisp, and clear, and consistent, so that people at least know what's going on, even if they may not like it upfront. >> Well, Lucas, you brought up kubernetes and containers, right? We're here at DockerCon, so, obviously, containers on the tip of everybody's tongue. But you also work with legacy apps, which traditionally, I suppose at this point, traditional means a VM. So how does that go together? What are you looking at your customers? Are they able to transition to more containerized infrastructure? Are they sticking with VMs? I mean, how do modern containers fit into the Skytap platform here? >> Yeah, I think we're seeing a lot of adoption with our customers who are moving into Skytap with their traditional applications and we continue to, sort of, learn and observe what they're doing. For us, there's two types of customers that move to Skytap. The first of those are really looking to migrate their whole data center or evacuate the data centers going, "Where can I put these legacy applications?" You know, there's not many places they can sort of go and so they move them into Skytap, get them up and running in there, and sort of see some benefits in that. And then, almost organically, start to look at going, well how else can I make, or get my team to be sort of more cloud-native or cloud reading. It's sort of an evolution of the people component we were talking about before and sort of going, all right, well as I get my teams more ready for cloud native, they start to sort of move towards containers and cloud native services. For our, sort of, other organizations that come in are those who already know and probably have already experienced, you know, other cloud, sort of, modernizations and are looking at what have they been able to achieve and what do they learn from that. And seen the value in actually Skytap and actually come to us with the approach of going, "Right, we want to come in here. "We want to move to more agile sort of methods. "We want to, sort of, start to take our traditional "monolithic applications, break it down "into into microservices, and move it into containers." >> I'm curious. One of the things that Steve Singh, the CEO of Docker, said this morning during his keynote was, about half the room, there's about five to six thousand people here at DockerCon, their fifth conference, that only about half of them are already on this containerization journey. I'm curious, and I know there's no one-size-fits-all, but when you're talking to customers who are at the preface of going, "All right, we've gotta do this. "This is really an essential component "of our transformation." What's the time frame that they could look to see measurable business impact once they start working with Skytap and Docker on this container journey? >> Yeah, well, I think we've gotta move away collectively as an industry from the idea that there's a Big Bang or silver bullet approach to change, right? I spent the five previous years before joining Skytap last year at a company called Chef Software, competes with Puppet, who's here on the show floor. Automation software. And what I saw there in terms of both DevOps adoption, adoption of automation, and the transition to the cloud, is that if you think you can get everybody full sale on the same amount of change at the same time, to do that effectively in a relatively reasonable amount of time, you're going to not only fail, but by failing, you actually set yourself further back than had you taken a more iterative approach. So I think from a time perspective, I think the first answer is you'll never be done so presume that the journey will continue into perpetuity because continuing to gain agility, continuing to get better at delivering software, to deliver value to customers, I don't see an end to that in any sort of near-term in our economy so I think that's gonna go on for a long time. So digital transformation, modernization, whatever buzz word people may want to use, the idea of evolving and changing is an ongoing process. I think, then, business leaders will say, "Well, that's baloney, I need change now. "I want results." I think, start with a project that has a deadline associated with it, alright? We need to be able to deliver our customer banking app online, via mobile, by January. Okay, well, bite that off singularly and so that you focus on that first, you learn from how you do that process, and then you can take those learnings, communicate them, and pick another project and another project. So we recommend kind of an iterative, progressive approach that will put time and measurable goals around a specific project, meet those deadlines, hopefully, if you're successful, and then give you a lot to learn and operate off of the next time. >> That's great. I'm really kind of curious about looking forward and economic models. You know, everything is as a service at this point. You have a lot of traditional providers, the Dells and HPEs of the world who sell a lot of hardware still and sell a lot of things upfront and they, the analysts and everyone else scratching their heads about how they get to sell more services along with that. Skytap's already there. You're selling your cloud provider, you're selling a service, in some ways you're replacing some of the infrastructure or, you know, an adjunct to it. I'm just kind of curious, going forward, I mean, is this the future of cloud? As a service provider, how do you see the economic model of the DNA of Skytap partnering with people? We've ended up talking about process and people more than we've ended up talking about technology today. Which is kind of fascinating. But is that, project us into the future, what do you all see? >> Yeah, I think what we see today with cloud, and the microservices and container model is really the evolution of what was sort of the virtual data center and developing in sort of VMs. And so sort of going a step beyond that, we're seeing the container model grow and as you rightly pointed out, we talked a lot about people and process and I think that sort of was what's holding back a little of the enterprise adoption today and I think as organizations get into this sort of process and mindset, almost and sort of going, "Hey, things are gonna continue to evolve over time "and our organizations need to be "ready to adopt a lot of these." And this isn't just sort of your development level as well as looking at right, well how does your corporate IT teams, how do your security teams and other parts of the business realize this is gonna continue to evolve really quickly? And I think that's what we're gonna continue to see, sort of up front and it's gonna drive a lot of the adoption of the cloud native services and containers but it's gonna take a bit of time for some organizations to get there. >> Yeah, I have a soapbox, I want to stand on it real quickly. I think cloud is the way forward, right? So no one wants to be in the infrastructure business long-term. So I think regardless of what your deployment model will be, most businesses, five, 10, 15, 20 years from now, I don't see them owning a lot of data center real estate, right? So make the infrastructure someone else's problem. Whether that's Skytap, whether that's AWS, whether that's Azure, or, frankly, whether that's all of us, to your multi-cloud statistic, right? We see the same thing. It's much like the data center was today and has been for a long time. Use the right tool for the right job. You've got a mix of technologies so you're not locked in to any single vendor and you're able to fit technology to your business needs so I think, one, we're going cloud and that's gonna be the way it is. I think, two, is open source, right? I mean, that's where containers gained all their momentum where Docker did a fantastic job of really giving a vibrant community of developers an opportunity to do their work much more easy, much easier and much faster. And so I think you'll continue to see open source play a much larger component in how, even very large, long-standing businesses, develop what they're doing. And then you bring those two together, right? You look at, how can the cloud ecosystem best support open source tools to deliver and develop software that's gonna add value at the end of the day. >> Guys, I wish we had more time. Thank you so much for stopping by and sharing with us what Skytap is doing and how you're enabling customers to not just evolve from a technology standpoint but, I think, as we've all talked about here, really, what might even be more important is evolve the people and the processes. So thanks Lucas, thanks Hamish. Thanks for your time. >> Thank you so much for having us. >> We wanna thank you for watching theCUBE. Again, I'm Lisa Martin with John Troyer from DockerCon 2018. Stick around, we'll be right back with our next guest. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From the Corinium Chief Analytics Officer Conference, Spring, San Francisco, its theCUBE. >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're at the Corinium Chief Analytics Officer event in San Francisco, Spring, 2018. About 100 people, predominantly practitioners, which is a pretty unique event. Not a lot of vendors, a couple of them around, but really a lot of people that are out in the wild doing this work. We're really excited to have a return guest. We last saw him at Spark Summit East 2017. Can you believe I keep all these shows straight? I do not. Alfred Essa, he is the VP, Analytics and R&D at McGraw-Hill Education. Alfred, great to see you again. >> Great being here, thank you. >> Absolutely, so last time we were talking it was Spark Summit, it was all about data in motion and data on the fly, and real-time analytics. You talked a lot about trying to apply these types of new-edge technologies and cutting-edge things to actually education. What a concept, to use artificial intelligence, a machine learning for people learning. Give us a quick update on that journey, how's it been progressing? >> Yeah, the journey progresses. We recently have a new CEO come on board, started two weeks ago. Nana Banerjee, very interesting background. PhD in mathematics and his area of expertise is Data Analytics. It just confirms the direction of McGraw-Hill Education that our future is deeply embedded in data and analytics. >> Right. It's funny, there's a often quoted kind of fact that if somebody came from a time machine from, let's just pick 1849, here in San Francisco, everything would look different except for Market Street and the schools. The way we get around is different. >> Right. >> The things we do to earn a living are different. The way we get around is different, but the schools are just slow to change. Education, ironically, has been slow to adopt new technology. You guys are trying to really change that paradigm and bring the best and latest in cutting edge to help people learn better. Why do you think it's taken education so long and must just see nothing but opportunity ahead for you. >> Yeah, I think the... It was sort of a paradox in the 70s and 80s when it came to IT. I think we have something similar going on. Economists noticed that we were investing lots and lots of money, billions of dollars, in information technology, but there were no productivity gains. So this was somewhat of a paradox. When, and why are we not seeing productivity gains based on those investments? It turned out that the productivity gains did appear and trail, and it was because just investment in technology in itself is not sufficient. You have to also have business process transformation. >> Jeff Frick: Right. >> So I think what we're seeing is, we are at that cusp where people recognize that technology can make a difference, but it's not technology alone. Faculty have to teach differently, students have to understand what they need to do. It's a similar business transformation in education that I think we're starting to see now occur. >> Yeah it's great, 'cause I think the old way is clearly not the way for the way forward. That's, I think, pretty clear. Let's dig into some of these topics, 'cause you're a super smart guy. One thing's talk about is this algorithmic transparency. A lot of stuff in the news going on, of course we have all the stuff with self-driving cars where there's these black box machine learning algorithms, and artificial intelligence, or augmented intelligence, bunch of stuff goes in and out pops either a chihuahua or a blueberry muffin. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference. Really, it's important to open up the black box. To open up so you can at least explain to some level of, what was the method that took these inputs and derived this outpout. People don't necessarily want to open up the black box, so kind of what is the state that you're seeing? >> Yeah, so I think this is an area where not only is it necessary that we have algorithmic transparency, but I think those companies and organizations that are transparent, I think that will become a competitive advantage. That's how we view algorithms. Specifically, I think in the world of machine learning and artificial intelligence, there's skepticism, and that skepticism is justified. What are these machines? They're making decisions, making judgments. Just because it's a machine, doesn't mean it can't be biased. We know it can be. >> Right, right. >> I think there are techniques. For example, in the case of machine learning, what the machines learns, it learns the algorithm, and those rules are embedded in parameters. I sort of think of it as gears in the black box, or in the box. >> Jeff Frick: Right. >> What we should be able to do is allow our customers, academic researchers, users, to understand at whatever level they need to understand and want to understand >> Right. >> What the gears do and how they work. >> Jeff Frick: Right. >> Fundamental, I think for us, is we believe that the smarter our customers are and the smarter our users are, and one of the ways in which they can become smarter is understanding how these algorithms work. >> Jeff Frick: Right. >> We think that that will allow us to gain a greater market share. So what we see is that our customers are becoming smarter. They're asking more questions and I think this is just the beginning. >> Jeff Frick: Right. >> We definitely see this as an area that we want to distinguish ourselves. >> So how do you draw lines, right? Because there's a lot of big science underneath those algorithms. To different degrees, some of it might be relatively easy to explain as a simple formula, other stuff maybe is going into some crazy, statistical process that most layman, or business, or stakeholders may or may not understand. Is there a way you slice it? Is there kind of wars of magnitude in how much you expose, and the way you expose within that box? >> Yeah, I think there is a tension. The tension traditionally, I think organizations think of algorithms like they think of everything else, as intellectual property. We want to lock down our intellectual property, we don't want to expose that to our competitors. I think... I think that's... We do need to have intellectual property, however, I think many organizations get locked into a mental model, which I don't think is just the right one. I think we can, and we want our customers to understand how our algorithm works. We also collaborate quite a bit with academic researchers. We want validation from the academic research community that yeah, the stuff that you're building is in fact based on learning science. That it has warrant. That when you make claims that it works, yes, we can validate that. Now, where I think... Based on the research that we do, things that we publish, our collaboration with researchers, we are exposing and letting the world know how we do things. At the same time, it's very, very difficult to build an engineer, an architect, scalable solutions that implement those algorithms for millions of users. That's not trivial. >> Right, right, right. >> Even if we give away quite a bit of our secret sauce, it's not easy to implement that. >> Jeff Frick: Right. >> At the same time, I believe and we believe, that it's good to be chased by our competition. We're just going to go faster. Being more open also creates excitement and an ecosystem around our products and solutions, and it just makes us go faster. >> Right, which gives to another transition point, which would you talk about kind of the old mental model of closed IP systems, and we're seeing that just get crushed with open source. Not only open source movements around specific applications, and like, we saw you at Spark Summit, which is an open source project. Even within what you would think for sure has got to be core IP, like Facebook opening up their hardware spec for their data centers, again. I think what's interesting, 'cause you said the mental model. I love that because the ethos of open source, by rule, is that all the smartest people are not inside your four walls. >> Exactly. >> There's more of them outside the four walls regardless of how big your four walls are, so it's more of a significant mental shift to embrace, adopt, and engage that community from a much bigger accumulative brain power than trying to just trying to hire the smartest, and keep it all inside. How is that impacting your world, how's that impacting education, how can you bring that power to bear within your products? >> Yeah, I think... You were in effect quoting, I think it was Bill Joy saying, one of the founders of Sun Microsystems, they're always, you have smart people in your organization, there are always more smarter people outside your organization, right? How can we entice, lure, and collaborate with the best and the brightest? One of the ways we're doing that is around analytics, and data, and learning science. We've put together a advisory board of learning science researchers. These are the best and brightest learning science researcher, data scientists, learning scientists, they're on our advisory board and they help and set, give us guidance on our research portfolio. That research portfolio is, it's not blue sky research, we're on Google and Facebook, but it's very much applied research. We try to take the no-knowns in learning science and we go through a very quick iterative, innovative pipeline where we do research, move a subset of those to product validation, and then another subset of that to product development. This is under the guidance, and advice, and collaboration with the academic research community. >> Right, right. You guys are at an interesting spot, because people learn one way, and you've mentioned a couple times this interview, using good learning science is the way that people learn. Machines learn a completely different way because of the way they're built and what they do well, and what they don't do so well. Again, I joked before about the chihuahua and the blueberry muffin, which is still one of my favorite pictures, if you haven't seen it, go find it on the internet. You'll laugh and smile I promise. You guys are really trying to bring together the latter to really help the former. Where do those things intersect, where do they clash, how do you meld those two methodologies together? >> Yeah, it's a very interesting question. I think where they do overlap quite a bit is... in many ways machines learn the way we learn. What do I mean by that? Machine learning and deep learning, the way machines learn is... By making errors. There's something, a technical concept in machine learning called a loss function, or a cost function. It's basically the difference between your predicted output and ground truth, and then there's some sort of optimizer that says "Okay, you didn't quite get it right. "Try again." Make this adjustment. >> Get a little closer. >> That's how machines learn, they're making lots and lots of errors, and there's something behind the scenes called the optimizer, which is giving the machine feedback. That's how humans learn. It's by making errors and getting lots and lots of feedback. That's one of the things that's been absent in traditional schooling. You have a lecture mode, and then a test. >> Jeff Frick: Right. >> So what we're trying to do is incorporate what's called formative assessment, this is just feedback. Make errors, practice. You're not going to learn something, especially something that's complicated, the first time. You need to practice, practice, practice. Need lots and lots of feedback. That's very much how we learn and how machines learn. Now, the differences are, technologically and state of knowledge, machines can now do many things really well but there's still some things and many things, that humans are really good at. What we're trying to do is not have machines replace humans, but have augmented intelligence. Unify things that machines can do really well, bring that to bear in the case of learning, also insights that we provide. Instructors, advisors. I think this is the great promise now of combining the best of machine intelligence and human intelligence. >> Right, which is great. We had Gary Kasparov on and it comes up time and time again. The machine is not better than a person, but a machine and a person together are better than a person or a machine to really add that context. >> Yeah, and that dynamics of, how do you set up the context so that both are working in tandem in the combination. >> Right, right. Alright Alfred, I think we'll leave it there 'cause I think there's not a better lesson that we could extract from our time together. I thank you for taking a few minutes out of your day, and great to catch up again. >> Thank you very much. >> Alright, he's Alfred, I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE from the Corinium Chief Analytics Officer event in downtown San Francisco. Thanks for watching. (energetic music)

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE, covering IBM Think 2018, brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome back to theCUBE. We are live on Day One of our three days of coverage of IBM Think, the inaugural single event from IBM. I'm Lisa Martin with Dave Vellante. We're at the Mandalay Bay in beautiful sunny Las Vegas, and we're excited to welcome to theCUBE for the first time, Steve Hill, the Global Head of Innovation at KPMG. Welcome. >> Thanks for having me here. >> So you are giving a talk Wednesday, you said, at the event. >> Yes. >> I want to get a little bit into your role at KPMG, as well as your session. So talk to us a little bit about what your role as the Global Head of Innovation. >> So Innovation is an overused word. I don't particular like the word innovation, but in the context of my role, it really is taking a look at our business and our clients, and saying what it is that our clients need for their futures. What's going to create relevance for our clients as we go forward, and how does our portfolio of services relate to that relevance? And if we have gaps where we see our services not serving them best, or not going to serve them best in the future, my job responsibility is to help for strategy purposes and for investment purposes, bring those points to bear, and to get either investment into those areas, right, or changes in the business as appropriate to make KPMG more relevant to our clients, and to their relevance to their clients, right, that's the whole idea. >> So, Lisa and I talk to a lot of people in theCUBE, and we talk lots about invention, startups inventing something or new technology that gets invented, but innovation to us, and I think KPMG is at the heart of this is taking an invention and actually applying it to effect change, getting it adopted, >> That's right. >> and changing a business, a societal change potentially, is that-- >> That's right, I mean, our short phrase for it is idea to cash for our clients, right. I mean at the end of the day, and I think this is profound in certainly corporate governance evolution, right. We've seen the advent of lots of escrow changes of how companies have been managed, enterprise has been managed, right. The Dutch started with the East Indian Trading Company, one of the first large global enterprises, and since that time we've seen the maturation, the new roles. The CIO role didn't exist much prior to 1950, right. Today we're starting to see innovation to be a very important skill and capability for all corporations, all enterprises, including government, right. And I think we're starting to see a maturation of corporate capability, I would say, in the innovation space, because the pace of change is so fast today, the political, economic, technological, social trends are so complex that you've got to get something in your muscle memory that helps you change your business as much as operate it effectively. >> I'd love to know who you're talking to within organizations. You mentioned CIO role, the CISO role, chief data officer. >> Steve: Right. >> Who are the minds that you're helping to bring together so that an enterprise that needs to digitalize to be competitive will survive, right, really survive these days? How do you help them really embrace a culture of innovation as really there's no other choice? How do you get these minds collectively agreeing, yes, this is the direction we need to go in? >> Yeah, I think, I mean first of all, this is a C-suite conversation and a board conversation in many cases, but the reality is when you start to look at the lack of innovation in an organization, right, and when the environment changes, competitors start to change, and the more complex it is, it's harder and harder for companies to pivot and to reinvent themselves. And we're seeing a lot of unbundling of businesses in today's environment, whether it's a company that moves packages, right, or a professional services firm, or a company that used to distribute videos, right. I mean things change and some of the irony is that sometimes the innovation in companies like Kodak, Steve Sasson invented digital camera, it took eight minutes to go from a snap to a picture, but they invented digital technology from cameras, and that the distribution of digital videos is that it actually would help to, further the demise of that organization. So that notion of how do you take change going on in the environment that you're working at, and more importantly your customers and clients, how does that convert into your business, that's a C-suite conversation, and I think innovation can be embodied in a person to help build process, meaning how do you take an idea, how do you look at the marketplace and get sensory input, convert that to ideas for strategy and for investment, and the investments have to be deployed to the field to the business, and that relationship, that whole lifecycle of innovation requires a lot of people from the enterprise to be involved in it. And I would argue the culture has to evolve because until recently most people, in fact, I would say, including current times, most people in organizations are rewarded for doing what they do well, not breaking what they do, not rethinking what they do. And the more you get into that operational mindset, that I want to wring all the efficiencies out of this process that I can. Right, the more you're wed to the status quo, the more somebody comes in from the side and takes you out. >> So I love this conversation 'cause Steve you're able to take the long view and then I want to sort of shorten it up, and then maybe put it into a longer term context. So over our, your guys 20-plus-year careers, mine a little longer, most of this industry has marched to the cadence of Moore's Law, that's where innovation came from. >> Yes. >> How do you take advantage of Moore's Law? How do you go to client server software, whatever it was, the innovation equation is changing now. It seems to be a function of, these guys have been hearing me say this all day but data that's not siloed, but data that you have access to, applying machine intelligence-- >> Yep. >> And then getting cloud, scale, economics and network effects, and then applying it to your business. >> Bingo. >> So talk about how you see the new wave of innovation in this world of digital or however you phrase it. >> Well, it's interesting, I mean, I don't hear a lot of people phrase it the way you do which I think is spot on which is, and my words are, ubiquitous access to technology which is cloud, data, and that's a huge question mark and a big C-suite conversation. Having a lot of data isn't the key, having the right lot of data is the key. Right so Dyson is moving into auto-making today, right. They have a lot of data and it's very different from what the incumbents have. Is it better or worse? We're going to see, right. And then of course smart computers which is the machine intelligence, right. Those three elements, I think they're fundamentally changing labor productivity. And what I would say is to your question is that innovation is really important here because if all you do is take those three elements and you just digitize a status quo process, you might get marginal benefits, you might get some labor productivity enhancement, you may get some marginal improvement, you may change an outsourcing agreement to an onshore RPA deal, but if that's all you do, you're setting yourself up for a disappointment because what's really going to happen with thinkers, i.e., those that have innovations, they're going to rethink the process. Most of our analog systems are created around people checking people, so you may have nine steps, I'm making it up, in a process, that in a digital world only requires one or two or zero when launching in some cases. And so if you can rethink that process to go from a nine-step to a zero-step process or a one-step that's a nano second long, that changes the dynamic of the process. In fact that's not even nirvana, right, the real nirvana is can you change your business model, right? And I would use IBM, since we're here, as an example of going from a big box with a lot of people running around it, called IBM of the past, Watson, to an API engine that David Kenny has helped to build that says, we're going to have a platform business model leveraging network effects, and I want to have a supply and a demand curve that are much faster growing than my sort of organic ways of growing a network could be, right, through people point clicking. That's innovation. >> IBM is an interesting company because it is a company with a lot of legacy, but I think gets, as you just described it, but you look at the top five companies by market value today, they're six, 700-billion dollar market companies, they are data companies not just with a lot of data, but they've put data at the core, so it's Amazon, it's Apple, it's Facebook, it's Google, et cetera. They've put data at the core whereas most organizations, I'm sure many that you deal with, they have human expertise built around other assets that aren't data. It might be factories, it might be the bottling plants, et cetera. So there's a gap, I don't know, machine, AI gap between sort of those that are innovating today, now granted the stock market can change and, >> Sure. >> Who knows, maybe the oil companies will be back involved, not to drop but how do you deal, how do you advice your clients on how to close that gap? That seems like a huge challenge. >> Well it is a huge challenge, and I think, going back to the three elements, it would be very easy for you to dive bomb into a transformation effort and say, I'm going to go and get some smart computers and hire a bunch of people that know machine intelligence and natural language process, and all that stuff, and put them in a room, and go create some applications, the bottom line is, that's not unimportant. You got to get your hand on the mountain and start climbing, but the data piece, I mean, if you don't understand how data is going to be relevant to your business and to your clients and their clients, right, in the future, you lose. And the reason why those five that you talked about earlier are so successful is they think a couple of steps ahead on the data strategy, right, and they're not thinking about, most organizations by the way, they'll say we want a data strategy and then they'll relegate the strategy thinking part to their businesses which are bifurcated, and they look at the world in silos. And they're doing exactly what they should do which is take care of those businesses, but when you step back into those five companies you've talked about, they step back from those silos and say, what is the enterprise implications, and how do I create new businesses with correlations of data that I didn't have before? I think that requires a whole different level of strategy. It's C-suite and board that has to guide those kinds of decisions. You don't see a lot of people really getting their hands dirty around intense forward-thinking data strategies at the enterprise level like we're talking about here. >> You believe we are entering or going to enter shortly a productivity renaissance. >> I agree, yes. >> That's sort of I'm talking about our off-camera conversation. Explain why you think that, compare it to sort of the Industrial Revolution. Take us through your scenario. >> Sure. So, I mean, when you think about labor, I mean, what are the things that I think those three elements will give us as a society, as a global community, is a pretty big S curve jump in labor productivity. In fact we have at KPMG some efforts to quantify what that might be, looking at what we call frontier firms, and applying those practices back to incumbents. 90% of most industry players is saying what are those differences that we can model. The fact of the matter is when you go back to the Mechanical Revolution, the Industrial Revolution, people did everything by hand prior, right. Equipment helped them do things whether it was, even the printing press saw changes in society and labor, but when you start to getting into heavy manufacture in the Industrial Revolution, productivity was enhanced dramatically, and instead of putting all of these people who were doing things by hand out of business and out of work, it actually created more jobs, a lot more jobs, and a lot more wealth for society. I think we're heading for a similar S-curve change with smart computers, cloud, and with data. And that the roboticism of people is going to be automated, and people are going to be allowed to practice and use what's between their ears a lot more. That's going to create value, insight, new questions to be asked. I mean, how many times have you ever heard this? Every time you answer a question on something that's very important, you want to understand there's two more questions to be asked. Medicine is that way for sure. But you're going to start to see massive advancement in areas where people have had to use a lot of cognitive skills, right. It's severely under-leveraged because they were doing so much roboticism and doing things that computers can start to do now. So I think you're going to start to see a renaissance, if you will, of people using their nogers in ways we haven't seen before, and that's going to change the dynamics of productivity and labor in a way that's going to create wealth for everyone. >> And it's going to change industry. So, okay, so I got a bunch of questions for you then. >> Steve: Yep. >> Here we go. And I asked this earlier but I didn't really get an answer. Will machines? >> Steve: From me or from somebody else? >> No, from somebody else. >> Steve: Okay. >> Will machines make better diagnoses than doctors and when? >> I mean, what's the regression line? I mean, the samples said, I think today you'll find machines giving better diagnoses than doctors in some cases. >> Dave: Okay. >> I don't know where the regression line sits today, but if you look at the productivity of doctors going a hundredfold, and the morals scattering around lung cancer, it's impressive. >> Dave: Yeah. >> And do you want a doctor involved? Yes, you do, because part of it is in an orthodoxy of trust which by the way ten years ago, you wouldn't put your credit card online to buy anything, right. It's the same kind of orthodoxy. But I do think that machines can read so much more data, interpolate so many more correlations than people that when you add that to an oncologist for example and cancer, you have a super oncologist capabilities which is really what you're looking for. We're not looking to replace the oncologist per se, what we're looking to do is get the productivity of the oncologist from two to 200. >> I was talking about diagnoses. So you would say yes, okay. >> Yep. >> Will large retail stores mostly disappear in your opinion? >> No, I think they'll change. I think that the customer experience is still, we're still people, we need physical space, and we need physical things to touch, smell, and feel. I think those things will change, but we'll still need experiences. >> I'm going to keep going 'cause Steve's playing along. Will driving and owning your own car become an exception? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> I can elaborate if you want. >> Please, yeah, go ahead. >> So, I mean, the first, I mean, we actually did at KPMG a study called islands of autonomy which modeled LA and San Diego, Atlanta and Chicago, and we modeled how do people move. And we did this for a reason because autonomous vehicles are often times amalgamated as one thing. Oh well autonomous vehicle is coming so you better sell your sports cars and your SUVs, not so fast. The reality is mobility is very different based on where you are. If you're in the middle of Kansas or something, you're going to need a truck to run around in your farm, but if you're in LA or Atlanta or Chicago, you're going to move with autonomy, with autonomous vehicles, and then you're going to really enable mobility as a service very clearly, but differently. The way people move in these cities is different, and if the US auto industry understands those differences, and extrapolates those to a global marketplace, they're going to be very advantaged as mobility as a service becomes real, but the first car that goes, I hate all of the viewers that love this category, but sedan is the first cars to go. I would say sports cars, I race cars, so I love sports cars. People still ride horses today but they don't need them for transportation. And SUVs, right, specialty vehicles that you may, it may not, the economies may not be there, but as we know transportation and car ownership, it's going to change fundamentally, and that's going to have a massive effect on FS, right, insurance companies, banks that are doing loans today. It's going to have a big effect on healthcare. Mobility as a service is going to transcend to healthcare, mobile healthcare in ways that we can't see. >> You got great perspective. I got one more for you, maybe a couple more. Do you think traditional banks will lose control over payment systems? >> Well, a lot of them are already nervous about that, wouldn't you think? >> Yeah, but it hasn't happened yet though. >> I understand, the bottom line is no 'cause I think the traditional banks are getting smarter and they're leveraging their own innovation horsepower to understand things like Blockchain, and how to incorporate those things into their business models. So the answer is I think the way they do, look, banks exist because of one reason, trust. They have trusted brands, right. As long as they can stay current enough to be relevant to your banking needs, you're going to stay with that trusted brand. I think the trick for banks is how do they move fast enough, leverage the technologies that make your life easier, and not waiting three or four days for bank clearing of a check, for example. >> That's they say if you're-- >> And get to that trust in a new way. >> Unless you're a Bitcoin millionaire or a billionaire. >> You still need a bank. >> Maybe somewhere down the line. >> Yeah. >> Okay, last one, I promise. Will robots and maybe even RPA reverse offshore manufacturing advantages? >> Yes. >> Can you elaborate and give us a sense of-- >> I think, first of all, if you really look at what RPA is doing in many ways, is disintermediating the value of geographic location in many ways, right. So where I may have had, again this is important that you understand, so I can still go offshore today and get labor arbitrage and get margin, but I'm not rethinking the business. What I really want to do is own, I want to have more control and I want to have more flexibility and growth in that back office function. So it would behoove when you think about our RPA, and bring in our RPA technology so I have it one onshore, two, leverage the data more securely potentially, and then leverage that data as part of my lake to say how do I use that data to correlate to get to what I really need which is customer relevance at the front office, right. So, look, I think that this whole notion of you're in a different country, and therefore the labor pools are different, and therefore their arbitrage will get benefits from that, those days are over. I mean, it's just a question of when does it die. >> Dave: The data value offsets that arbitrage advantage. >> Well, forget that. The arbitrage is dead itself because the machines, >> Yeah, yeah, right. >> You're talking about orders that have made it to a cheaper per unit cost for an RPA, for a bot to do something than it is for a person that has to eat, sleep, take vacation, and get sick, and all that stuff. And so no matter where they are in the world. So what I would say is that notion is dead. It's just not buried. And overtime we're going to migrate again to machines doing all that robotic stuff. But, again, those people, they're going to do different things. It's not like we're going to see hordes, hundreds of thousands and millions of people not be able to work, I think they're going to be doing different things using their heads in different ways. >> Lisa: I like that answer. >> That's a plan. >> Dave: It's good. >> There's a price somewhere? >> I'm absolutely wrong, I just don't know how wrong, right. >> Well, it's fun to think about, and you provided some context. It was very useful. So, thank you. >> And I imagine folks that are attending your session at IBM Think on Wednesday are going to hear a little bit more into that. So thanks for sharing. >> We going to see some specifics, yeah. >> Thanks for sharing your insights, Steve, and for joining us on theCUBE. You guys, the innovation equation is changing, and I thank you for letting me sit between a very innovative and informative conversation. >> Thank you both. It was fun. >> Thanks Steve. >> For Dave Vellante, I am Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE live on Day One of IBM Think 2018. Head over to thecube.net to watch all of our videos with our guests, and siliconanglemedia.com for all the written articles about that. Also check out Wikibon, find out what our analysts are saying about all things digital transformation, Blockchain, AI, ML, et cetera. Dave and I are going to be right back after a short break with our next guest. We'll see you then. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: It's theCUBE, covering Sapphire Now 2017, brought to you by SAP Cloud Platform, and HANA Enterprise Cloud. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to our special coverage of SAP Sapphire Now. I'm John Furrier, here in theCUBE's studios of Palo Alto for our three days of wall to wall coverage, breaking down all the news with analysis. Our next guest here on theCUBE is Emily Mui, Senior Director of HANA Cloud Product Marketing at SAP, and Michael Hill, Senior Director of Product Marketing and SAP Cloud Platform. I had a chance to have a conversation around the big news around SAP Cloud Platform and what it means. I had a chance to ask Emily and Michael about the Sapphire impact around this new strategy, and the impact of multi-cloud. Here's the conversation with Michael and Emily. >> Three things to remember, three Cs, it's about helping accelerate cloud adoption, consumption, as well as-- >> [Michael And John] Choice. >> Choice, because of multi-cloud. >> So this is interesting. So the three Cs, I love that, very gimmicky marketing thing that I like. It gets to the point. Choice is huge. Multi-cloud is what everyone's talking about, in essence is what hybrid cloud's turning into. I mean, hybrid cloud has been the defacto norm now everyone's talking about, that is the preferred way most enterprises are using the cloud on premise and some public cloud, call it hybrid. But now, the mobile cloud's out here. There's Amazon Web Service, you've got Google, Azure, so there's a lot of, so the choice is critical, where to put what were clothes. >> And that's what we're hearing from our customers, and that's why we're moving in that direction. Not everyone wants to stick to one infrastructure as a service provider, they've got multiple clouds to manage, and we're enabling that. >> So choice I get. Cloud adoption is essentially creating those APIs to give them that accelerated approach. More cloud adoption means what? I've got be able to run stuff in the cloud faster, so that means getting their apps API, the API economy. And the consumption, is that on the interface side, or what's the consumption piece of it? >> Well, I'm going to let Michael have a swing at it now. >> It's consumption of innovation. So here we're talking about helping companies with digital transformation with things like Internet of Things, which we had in beta, which is now generally available, so customers can intelligently connect people, things, and business processes, all together now. In addition, we've added other great technologies like SAP CoPilot, which is allowing you to talk to your enterprise systems. So initially, that's what with SAPS for HANA. And you can say, "I'm interested in, "tell me all the open orders from the last quarter." And it will intelligently go get that information. >> It's like a voice recognition, all kinds of news things are coming out. >> Absolutely. >> As a user interface, or interface on cloud. >> They're for the enterprise. >> Or IT interface. >> On your phone or on your computer. >> So it's all being automated. We all know AI, that's just, "All our jobs are being automated." But this is specific. You're saying you're going to interface in with like CoPilot. >> Exactly. So you've got that business context. >> All right, let's step back and look at the Lego blocks. The cloud choice, multi-cloud. Let's get in, and then we'll talk about the adoption piece, how you guys are accelerating that through the marketplaces and APIs, and then the consumption through the new interfaces. So start with multi-cloud. What are the big points there? >> Well, the first is the agility that your platform as a service is now available on not just SAP data centers, but Amazon Web Services, Microsoft Azure, and Google Cloud Platform, being delivered. Amazon Web Services is now generally available, Azure is now beta, and there's a preview of Google Cloud Platform. And here you have one cockpit in SAP Cloud Platform to manage this multi-cloud infrastructure. >> So your strategy is to put your platform as a service on the clouds that customers want to run their workloads on? >> Exactly. So customers may already have specific workloads, or they may be working with partners that have workloads in those particular clouds. And now, SAP Cloud Platform can run in that same infrastructure. >> So the plan is to support the platform as a service from SAP on the clouds of choice for the customer. So they want to put stuff on Azure, if it's related to Office 365, or something going on with that, they could put it there. If they want to put some cloud-native on Amazon Web Service, they can. If they want to use Spanner and some TensorFlow, they could put that on Google. >> And to make this happen was really cool thing, is that we did this through our work in Cloud Foundry, and this allows you to bring your own development language, so BYOL. So if you have developers that are working in a particular language that's not supported natively by SAP previously, they can now be instantly productive on building applications on SAP Cloud Platform. >> So Cloud Foundry is the key to success on this? >> Yeah. Exactly. And that bring things like Node.js, and Python, as well as SAPs. >> All the cloud-native goodness that people want from a developer standpoint. >> Exactly. >> But yet, you guys allow it to run on Prim within the SAP constructs. >> Yep. >> All right, let's talk about cloud adoption, 'cause this is where the big rubber hits the road. Emily, we've been talking about the API economy for years. In fact, SAP was early on, and Web Services going through bankrupt. But there's some real value in here, because SAP runs software in some of the biggest businesses, so there's a lot of nuances to SAP. But when you go cloud and cloud-native, you've got to balance preexisting install base legacy with new apps that are being developed, how are you guys going to do that? >> So we announced the API Business Hub around a year ago at Sapphire in 2016, and it has grown tremendously in terms of content. So we had a lot of new APIs that keep getting added every month. And we're into the hundreds now. But it's not just the APIs, we've got integration workflows, there's all kinds of different content that's being added in there to make easier for our customers and partners to be able to leverage, and integrate, and connect, these different application with SAP back-end. So lot of exciting things happening on that end. >> So this allows them to go to the cloud business model. >> Emily: Exactly, right. >> Okay, now back to the consumption pieces, CoPilot. So is this where you guys are looking at where the dynamic nature of cloud can take advantage of the customers, because not only interfacing with, say, voice, for instance, there's others things, like, "Okay, I want to change processes. "I have the Workflow, or I'm doing something, "I want to just, "I'm not a developer, a Python developer, "I want to go in and make some rule changes, "or things of that nature." >> Yeah, so we have the Workflow service, that's also available. We've got a whole host of new capabilities that are coming out, and we'll call it digital edge, giving our customers a digital edge with these new innovative services. >> Edge as the user and also machines. >> Yes. >> That's where the IoT piece comes in. >> Exactly. >> So decision maker or customer says, "Hey, I've done all this stuff in the cloud." All of a sudden, someone says, "Well, we've got to bolt on some industrial data "from machines in our plant or factory." >> In fact, our IoT, the newest set of capabilities for IoT services is available at Sapphire. >> Okay, s\o what's the big takeaway from this? Let's just boil it down. Bottom line, this announcement impacts customers in what way? >> In many ways. We see many of customers wanting to become digital. And we've talked about how we think the benefits of cloud platform has to do with helping our customers become much more agile in how they do business, and SAP is in perfect position to do that. We've been working with companies, enterprises for years with their business processes, helping them optimize it. So that's the other bit, to be able to optimize all their business processes, and through the cloud. And then lastly, digital is the way to that they want to go. They know they want to be able to adopt all these new technologies. AI is so exciting. The CoPilot, if you've seen the demo, and you can see it at show floor here at Sapphire, it's amazing. Just the fact that you can talk to it, create an order, do some search, talk to it. I know that's how my kids, how they get through everyday life. They don't go look up anything anymore, they don't even Google, just talk. >> It's very dynamic. Certainly, the kids are an indicator, that you see if they want things, have the ability to move things around like the Lego blocks or composability. >> Yeah, so the speed, so that's why we love talking about accelerating consumption, and choice, and cloud adoption, because the speed of which everyone is adopting new technologies is just astronomical. >> Michael, comment on that point, because I always, this is our eight year covering Sapphire with theCUBE. It's our first year we're doing it from the studio as well. But Bill McDermott has always been on this with the whole dashboarding thing. If you look at SAP, the speed of business, how (mumbles) year that was. But each year, he never really changed, it's been the same arc, might've been a zigzag here and there, a little success factors here and there, all this kind of integration you guys have done. But it's been the same message, data's at the heart of the customers' outcomes. And the dashboards of old were data warehouses. But now he was showing a vision where, with the speed of data, the speed of software, you can get your business dashboard at your fingertips. That's what the customers are looking for. Your thoughts? >> It's not only being able to get that information at your fingertips, but actually being able to do something about it. So you can build those applications that can make an impact. So if you have, you're using our iOS SDK, and you've build that Apple interface, you have a nice interface that you can move an order, or you can do something about it while you're traveling. So you have this great dashboard, but now it's actionable. >> And this is the big difference, this is what makes his original vision, which certainly you can replicate with SAP's suite of data, and data and software, to a whole nother dimension of new apps. So app developers can come in and create these apps, and create new value propositions. >> Absolutely. >> All right, so how do they do that? What's the advice the customers, as they look at this new announcement, the impact of them, what does it mean to customer? Pick your cloud of choice? Use the APIs? >> Plenty of choices, and of course, we offer them a lot of guidance too, right? Because we've got a lot of great customers that are using the cloud platform today, some of which are presenting here at Sapphire. Karma Automotive, we love their story. They used to be Fisker Automotive, an all electronic vehicle. And it's amazing that the things that they want to do, and they're using the cloud platform in order to do that. But it's just another example of an innovative company that's looking to work with a company like SAP, and do everything in the cloud, building an application that will make it easier in terms of IoT, the sensors, and things like that, so they can track it to be able to take action on it. So it's very exciting. So lots of new things that are happening. >> I think there's two things that jump out at me, just to summarize the freedom that developers in the cloud-native world can do to create new apps, that also blend in on all of the existing value that SAP's already doing in the marketplace, that's always been, that was something that I observed last year, this is now a realization of that. But two, is now the customers now have a choice to put whatever they want in whatever cloud. And to me, what we've seen on theCUBE over the many interviews we've done, people who follow theCUBE know we've talked to a lot of people, is the workloads find their homes, some like Amazon, some like Azure, some like Google, and I think that is what customers are telling us, and you guys are now offering that choice. "Hey, put some workloads over there. "It doesn't matter where you want to put 'em, "we're just going to run 'em with--" >> And where we can help is really on the business service side. We have the right types of application services within the platform as a service offering, to enable them to create those types of apps to support their business. >> Applications, data, value for customers. >> And it's the integration of data into the application, because that's what's important. >> There'll be a new generation of application developers. We're standing up application like PowerPoint slides, really composing apps, that is the DevOps mainstream trend. Emily, thanks so much for sharing the great news. Michael, good to see you. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. Special Sapphire Now 2017 coverage. Breaking the news of the three Cs, multi-cloud, SAP's new announcement in Orlando. This is theCUBE coverage. More coverage after this short break.

>> Announcer: Live from Boston, Massachusetts this is the CUBE covering Spark Summit East 2017 brought to you by Databricks. Now, here are your hosts Dave Vellante and George Gilbert. >> Welcome back to Boston everybody this is the CUBE. We're live here at Spark Summit East in the Hynes Convention Center. This is the CUBE, check out SiliconANGLE.com for all the news of the day. Check out Wikibon.com for all the research. I'm really excited about this session here. Al Essa is here, he's the vice president of analytics and R&D at McGraw-Hill Education. And I'm so excited because we always talk about digital transformations and transformations. We have an example of 150 year old company that has been, I'm sure, through many transformations. We're going to talk about a recent one. Al Essa, welcome to the CUBE, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you, pleasure to be here. >> So you heard my little narrative up front. You, obviously, have not been with the company for 150 years (laughs), you can't talk about all the transformations, but there's certainly one that's recent in the last couple of years, anyway which is digital. We know McGraw Hill is a print publisher, describe your business. >> Yeah, so McGraw Hill Education has been traditionally a print publisher, but beginning with our new CEO, David Levin, he joined the company about two years ago and now we call ourselves a learning science company. So it's no longer print publishing, it's smart digital and by smart digital we mean we're trying to transform education by applying principles of learning science. Basically what that means is we try to understand, how do people learn? And how they can learn better. So there are a number of domains, cognitive science, brain sciences, data science and we begin to try to understand what are the known knowns in these areas and then apply it to education. >> I think Marc Benioff said it first, at least the first I heard he said there were going to be way more Saas companies that come out of non-tech companies than tech companies. We're talking off camera, you're a software company. Describe that in some detail. >> Yeah, so being a software company is new for us, but we've moved pretty quickly. Our core competency has been really expert knowledge about education. We work with educators, subject matter experts, so for over a hundred years, we've created vetted content, assessments, and so on. So we have a great deal of domain expertise in education and now we're taking, sort of the new area of frontiers of knowledge, and cognitive science, brain sciences. How can learners learn better and applying that to software and models and algorithms. >> Okay, and there's a data component to this as well, right? >> So yeah, the way I think about it is we're a smart digital company, but smart digital is fueled by smart data. Data underlies everything that we do. Why? Because in order to strengthen learners, provide them with the optimal pathway, as well as instructors. We believe instructors are at the center of this new transformation. We need to provide immediate, real-time data to students and instructors on, how am I doing? How can I do better? This is the predictive component and then you're telling me, maybe I'm not on the best path. So what's my, "How can I do better?" the optimal path. So all of that is based on data. >> Okay, so that's, I mean, the major reason. Do you do any print anymore? Yes, we still do print, because there's still a huge need for print. So print's not going to go away. >> Right. Okay, I just wanted to clarify that. But what you described is largely a business model change, not largely, it is a business model change. But also the value proposition is changing. You're providing a new service, related, but new incremental value, right? >> Yeah, yeah. So the value proposition has changed, and here again, data is critical. Inquiring minds want to know. Our customers want to know, "All right, we're going to use your technology "and your products and solutions, "show us "rigorously, empirically, that it works." That's the bottom line question. Is it effective? Are the tools, products, solutions, not just ours, but are our products and solutions have a context. Is the instruction effective? Is it effective for everyone? So all that is reliant on data. >> So how much of a course, how much of the content in a course would you prepare? Is it now the entire courseware and you instrument the students interaction with it? And then, essentially you're selling the outcomes, the improved outcomes. >> Yeah, I think that's one way to think about it. Here's another model change, so this is not so much digital versus non-digital, but we've been a closed environment. You buy a textbook from us, all the material, the assessments is McGraw Hill Education. But now a fundamental part of our thinking as a software company is that we have to be an open company. Doesn't mean open as in free, but it's an open ecosystem, so one of the things that we believe in very much is standards. So there's a standard body in education called IMS Global. My boss, Stephen Laster, is on the board of IMS Global. So think of that as, this encompasses everything from different tools working together, interoperability tools, or interoperability standards, data standards for data exchange. So, we will always produce great content, great assessments, we have amazing platform and analytics capability, however, we don't believe all of our customers are going to want to use everything from McGraw Hill. So interoperability standards, data standards is vital to what we're doing. >> Can you explain in some detail this learning science company. Explain how we learn. We were talking off camera about sort of the three-- >> Yeah, so this is just one example. It's well known that memory decays exponentially, meaning when you see some item of knowledge for the first time, unless something happens, it goes into short-term memory and then it evaporates. One of the challenges in education is how can I acquire knowledge and retain knowledge? Now most of the techniques that we all use are not optimal. We cram right before an exam. We highlight things and that creates the illusion that we'll be able to recall it. But it's an illusion. Now, cognitive science and research in cognitive science tells us that there are optimal strategies for acquiring knowledge and recalling it. So three examples of that are effort for recall. If you have to actively recall some item of knowledge, that helps with the stickiness. Another is space practice. Practicing out your recall over multiple sessions. Another one is interleaving. So what we do is, we just recently came out with a product last week called, StudyWise. What we've done is taken those principles, written some algorithms, applies those algorithms into a mobile product. That's going to allow learners to optimize their acquisition and recall of knowledge. >> And you're using Spark to-- >> Yeah, we're using Spark and we're using Databricks. So I think what's important there is not just Spark as a technology, but it's an ecosystem, it's a set of technologies. And it has to be woven together into a workflow. Everything from building the model and algorithm, and those are always first approximations. We do the best we can, in terms of how we think the algorithm should work and then deploy that. So our data science team and learning science team builds the models, designs the models, but our IT team wants to make sure that it's part of a workflow. They don't want to have to deal with a new set of technologies, so essentially pressing the button goes into production and then it doesn't stop there, because as Studywise has gone on the market last week, now we're collecting data real-time as learners are interacting with our products. The results of their interactions is coming in to our research environment and we're analyzing that data, as a way of updating our models and tuning the models. >> So would it be fair to say that it was interesting when you talked about these new ways of learning. If I were to create an analogy to Legacy Enterprise apps, they standardize business transactions and the workflows that went with them. It's like you're picking out the best practices in learning, codifying them into an application. And you've opened it up so other platforms can take some or all and then you're taking live feedback from the models, but not just tuning the existing model, but actually adding learning to the model over time as you get a better sense for how effort of recall works or interleaving works. >> Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I do want to emphasize something, an aspect of what you just said is we believe, and it's not just we believe, the research in learning science shows that we can get the best, most significant learning gains when we place the instructor, the master teacher, at the center of learning. So, doing that, not just in isolation, but what we want to do is create a community of practitioners, master teachers. So think of the healthcare analogy. We have expert physicians, so when we have a new technique or even an old technique, What's working? What's not working? Let's look at the data. What we're also doing is instrumenting our tools so that we can surface these insights to the master practitioners or master teachers. George is trying this technique, that's working or not working, what adjustments do we need to make? So it's not just something has to happen with the learner. Maybe we need to adjust our curriculum. I have to change my teaching practices, my assessments. >> And the incentive for the master practitioners to collaborate is because that's just their nature? >> I think it is. So let's kind of stand back, I think the current paradigm of instruction is lecture mode. I want to impart knowledge, so I'm going to give a lecture. And then assessment is timed tests. In the educational, the jargon for that is summit of assessments, so lecture and tests. That's the dominant paradigm in education. All the research evidence says that doesn't work. (laughs) It doesn't work, but we still do it. >> For how many hundreds of years? >> Yeah. Well, it was okay if we needed to train and educate a handful of people. But now, everyone needs to be educated and it's lifelong learning rate, so that paradigm doesn't work. And the research evidence is overwhelming that it doesn't work. We have to change our paradigm where the new paradigm, and this is again based on research, is differentiated instruction. Different learners are at different stages in their learning and depending on what you need to know, I'm at a different stage. So, we need assessments. Assessments are not punitive, they're not tests. They help us determine what kind of knowledge, what kind of information each learner needs to know. And the instructor helps with the differentiated instruction. >> It's an alignment. >> It's an alignment, yeah. Really to take it to the next stage, the master practitioners, if they are armed with the right data, they can begin to compare. All right, practices this way of teaching for these types of students works well, these are the adjustments that we need to make. >> So, bringing it down to earth with Spark, these models of how to teach, or perhaps how to differentiate the instruction, how to do differentiated assessments, these are the Spark models. >> Yeah, these are the Spark models. So let's kind of stand back and see what's different about traditional analytics or business intelligence and the new analytics enabled by Spark, and so on. First, traditional analytics, the questions that you need to be able to answer are defined beforehand. And then they're implemented in schemas in a data warehouse. In the new order of things, I have questions that I need to ask and they just arise right now. I'm not going to anticipate all the questions that I might want to be able to ask. So, we have to be enable the ability to ask new questions and be able to receive answers immediately. Second, the feedback loop, traditional analytics is a batch mode. Overnight, data warehouse gets updated. Imagine you're flying an airplane, you're the pilot, a new weather system emerges. You can't wait a week or six months to get a report. I have to have corrective course. I have to re-navigate and find a new course. So, the same way, a student encounters difficulty, tell me what I need to do, what course correction do I need to apply? The data has to come in real-time. The models have to run real-time. And if it's at scale, then we have to have parallel processing and then the updates, the round trip, data back to the instructor or the student has to be essentially real-time or near real-time. Spark is one of the technologies that's enabling that. >> The way you got here is kind of interesting. You used to be CIO, got that big Yale brain (laughs) working for you. You're not a developer, I presume, is that right? >> No. >> How did you end up in this role? >> I think it's really a passion for education and I think this is at McGraw Hill. So I'm a first generation college student, I went to public school in Los Angeles. I had a lot of great breaks, I had great teachers who inspired me. So I think first, it's education, but I think we have a major, major problem that we need to solve. So if we look at... So I spent five years with the Minnesota state colleges and university system, most of the colleges, community colleges are open access institutions. So let me just give you a quick statistic. 70% of students who enter community colleges are not prepared in math and english. So seven out of 10 students need remediation. Of the seven out of 10 students who need remediation, only 15% not 5-0, one-five succeed to the next level. This is a national tragedy. >> And that's at the community college level? >> That's at the community college level. We're talking about millions of students who are not making it past the first gate. And they go away thinking they've failed, they incurred debt, their life is now stuck. So this is playing itself out, not to tens of thousands of students, but hundreds of thousands of students annually. So, we've got to solve this problem. I think it's not technology, but reshaping the paradigm of how we think about education. >> It is a national disaster, because often times that's the only affordable route for folks and they are taking on debt, thinking okay, this is a gateway. Al, we have to leave it there. Awesome segment, thanks very much for coming to the CUBE, really appreciate it. >> Thank you very much. >> All right, you're welcome. Keep it right there, my buddy, George and I will be back with our next guest. This is the CUBE, we're live from Boston. Be right back. (techno music) >> Narrator: Since the dawn of the cloud

(upbeat intro music) >> Hello everyone. Welcome to theCUBE's coverage of International Women's Day. I'm your host, John Furrier, here in Palo Alto, California. Got a special remote guest coming in. Teresa Carlson, President and Chief Commercial Officer at Flexport, theCUBE alumni, one of the first, let me go back to 2013, Teresa, former AWS. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Oh my gosh, almost 10 years. That is unbelievable. It's hard to believe so many years of theCUBE. I love it. >> It's been such a great honor to interview you and follow your career. You've had quite the impressive run, executive level woman in tech. You've done such an amazing job, not only in your career, but also helping other women. So I want to give you props to that before we get started. Thank you. >> Thank you, John. I, it's my, it's been my honor and privilege. >> Let's talk about Flexport. Tell us about your new role there and what it's all about. >> Well, I love it. I'm back working with another Amazonian, Dave Clark, who is our CEO of Flexport, and we are about 3,000 people strong globally in over 90 countries. We actually even have, we're represented in over 160 cities and with local governments and places around the world, which I think is super exciting. We have over 100 network partners and growing, and we are about empowering the global supply chain and trade and doing it in a very disruptive way with the use of platform technology that allows our customers to really have visibility and insight to what's going on. And it's a lot of fun. I'm learning new things, but there's a lot of technology in this as well, so I feel right at home. >> You quite have a knack from mastering growth, technology, and building out companies. So congratulations, and scaling them up too with the systems and processes. So I want to get into that. Let's get into your personal background. Then I want to get into the work you've done and are doing for empowering women in tech. What was your journey about, how did it all start? Like, I know you had a, you know, bumped into it, you went Microsoft, AWS. Take us through your career, how you got into tech, how it all happened. >> Well, I do like to give a shout out, John, to my roots and heritage, which was a speech and language pathologist. So I did start out in healthcare right out of, you know, university. I had an undergraduate and a master's degree. And I do tell everyone now, looking back at my career, I think it was super helpful for me because I learned a lot about human communication, and it has done me very well over the years to really try to understand what environments I'm in and what kind of individuals around the world culturally. So I'm really blessed that I had that opportunity to work in healthcare, and by the way, a shout out to all of our healthcare workers that has helped us get through almost three years of COVID and flu and neurovirus and everything else. So started out there and then kind of almost accidentally got into technology. My first small company I worked for was a company called Keyfile Corporation, which did workflow and document management out of Nashua, New Hampshire. And they were a Microsoft goal partner. And that is actually how I got into big tech world. We ran on exchange, for everybody who knows that term exchange, and we were a large small partner, but large in the world of exchange. And those were the days when you would, the late nineties, you would go and be in the same room with Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer. And I really fell in love with Microsoft back then. I thought to myself, wow, if I could work for a big tech company, I got to hear Bill on stage about saving, he would talk about saving the world. And guess what my next step was? I actually got a job at Microsoft, took a pay cut and a job downgrade. I tell this story all the time. Took like three downgrades in my role. I had been a SVP and went to a manager, and it's one of the best moves I ever made. And I shared that because I really didn't know the world of big tech, and I had to start from the ground up and relearn it. I did that, I just really loved that job. I was at Microsoft from 2000 to 2010, where I eventually ran all of the U.S. federal government business, which was a multi-billion dollar business. And then I had the great privilege of meeting an amazing man, Andy Jassy, who I thought was just unbelievable in his insights and knowledge and openness to understanding new markets. And we talked about government and how government needed the same great technology as every startup. And that led to me going to work for Andy in 2010 and starting up our worldwide public sector business. And I pinch myself some days because we went from two people, no offices, to the time I left we had over 10,000 people, billions in revenue, and 172 countries and had done really amazing work. I think changing the way public sector and government globally really thought about their use of technology and Cloud computing in general. And that kind of has been my career. You know, I was there till 2020, 21 and then did a small stint at Splunk, a small stint back at Microsoft doing a couple projects for Microsoft with CEO, Satya Nadella, who is also an another amazing CEO and leader. And then Dave called me, and I'm at Flexport, so I couldn't be more honored, John. I've just had such an amazing career working with amazing individuals. >> Yeah, I got to say the Amazon One well-documented, certainly by theCUBE and our coverage. We watched you rise and scale that thing. And like I said at a time, this will when we look back as a historic run because of the build out. I mean as a zero to massive billions at a historic time where government was transforming, I would say Microsoft had a good run there with Fed, but it was already established stuff. Federal business was like, you know, blocking and tackling. The Amazon was pure build out. So I have to ask you, what was your big learnings? Because one, you're a Seattle big tech company kind of entrepreneurial in the sense of you got, here's some working capital seed finance and go build that thing, and you're in DC and you're a woman. What did you learn? >> I learned that you really have to have a lot of grit. You, my mom and dad, these are kind of more southern roots words, but stick with itness, you know. you can't give up and no's not in your vocabulary. I found no is just another way to get to yes. That you have to figure out what are all the questions people are going to ask you. I learned to be very patient, and I think one of the things John, for us was our secret sauce was we said to ourselves, if we're going to do something super transformative and truly disruptive, like Cloud computing, which the government really had not utilized, we had to be patient. We had to answer all their questions, and we could not judge in any way what they were thinking because if we couldn't answer all those questions and prove out the capabilities of Cloud computing, we were not going to accomplish our goals. And I do give so much credit to all my colleagues there from everybody like Steve Schmidt who was there, who's still there, who's the CISO, and Charlie Bell and Peter DeSantis and the entire team there that just really helped build that business out. Without them, you know, we would've just, it was a team effort. And I think that's the thing I loved about it was it was not just sales, it was product, it was development, it was data center operations, it was legal, finance. Everybody really worked as a team and we were on board that we had to make a lot of changes in the government relations team. We had to go into Capitol Hill. We had to talk to them about the changes that were required and really get them to understand why Cloud computing could be such a transformative game changer for the way government operates globally. >> Well, I think the whole world and the tech world can appreciate your work and thank you later because you broke down those walls asking those questions. So great stuff. Now I got to say, you're in kind of a similar role at Flexport. Again, transformative supply chain, not new. Computing wasn't new when before Cloud came. Supply chain, not a new concept, is undergoing radical change and transformation. Online, software supply chain, hardware supply chain, supply chain in general, shipping. This is a big part of our economy and how life is working. Similar kind of thing going on, build out, growth, scale. >> It is, it's very much like that, John, I would say, it's, it's kind of a, the model with freight forwarding and supply chain is fairly, it's not as, there's a lot of technology utilized in this global supply chain world, but it's not integrated. You don't have a common operating picture of what you're doing in your global supply chain. You don't have easy access to the information and visibility. And that's really, you know, I was at a conference last week in LA, and it was, the themes were so similar about transparency, access to data and information, being able to act quickly, drive change, know what was happening. I was like, wow, this sounds familiar. Data, AI, machine learning, visibility, common operating picture. So it is very much the same kind of themes that you heard even with government. I do believe it's an industry that is going through transformation and Flexport has been a group that's come in and said, look, we have this amazing idea, number one to give access to everyone. We want every small business to every large business to every government around the world to be able to trade their goods, think about supply chain logistics in a very different way with information they need and want at their fingertips. So that's kind of thing one, but to apply that technology in a way that's very usable across all systems from an integration perspective. So it's kind of exciting. I used to tell this story years ago, John, and I don't think Michael Dell would mind that I tell this story. One of our first customers when I was at Keyfile Corporation was we did workflow and document management, and Dell was one of our customers. And I remember going out to visit them, and they had runners and they would run around, you know, they would run around the floor and do their orders, right, to get all those computers out the door. And when I think of global trade, in my mind I still see runners, you know, running around and I think that's moved to a very digital, right, world that all this stuff, you don't need people doing this. You have machines doing this now, and you have access to the information, and you know, we still have issues resulting from COVID where we have either an under-abundance or an over-abundance of our supply chain. We still have clogs in our shipping, in the shipping yards around the world. So we, and the ports, so we need to also, we still have some clearing to do. And that's the reason technology is important and will continue to be very important in this world of global trade. >> Yeah, great, great impact for change. I got to ask you about Flexport's inclusion, diversity, and equity programs. What do you got going on there? That's been a big conversation in the industry around keeping a focus on not making one way more than the other, but clearly every company, if they don't have a strong program, will be at a disadvantage. That's well reported by McKinsey and other top consultants, diverse workforces, inclusive, equitable, all perform better. What's Flexport's strategy and how are you guys supporting that in the workplace? >> Well, let me just start by saying really at the core of who I am, since the day I've started understanding that as an individual and a female leader, that I could have an impact. That the words I used, the actions I took, the information that I pulled together and had knowledge of could be meaningful. And I think each and every one of us is responsible to do what we can to make our workplace and the world a more diverse and inclusive place to live and work. And I've always enjoyed kind of the thought that, that I could help empower women around the world in the tech industry. Now I'm hoping to do my little part, John, in that in the supply chain and global trade business. And I would tell you at Flexport we have some amazing women. I'm so excited to get to know all. I've not been there that long yet, but I'm getting to know we have some, we have a very diverse leadership team between men and women at Dave's level. I have some unbelievable women on my team directly that I'm getting to know more, and I'm so impressed with what they're doing. And this is a very, you know, while this industry is different than the world I live in day to day, it's also has a lot of common themes to it. So, you know, for us, we're trying to approach every day by saying, let's make sure both our interviewing cycles, the jobs we feel, how we recruit people, how we put people out there on the platforms, that we have diversity and inclusion and all of that every day. And I can tell you from the top, from Dave and all of our leaders, we just had an offsite and we had a big conversation about this is something. It's a drum beat that we have to think about and live by every day and really check ourselves on a regular basis. But I do think there's so much more room for women in the world to do great things. And one of the, one of the areas, as you know very well, we lost a lot of women during COVID, who just left the workforce again. So we kind of went back unfortunately. So we have to now move forward and make sure that we are giving women the opportunity to have great jobs, have the flexibility they need as they build a family, and have a workplace environment that is trusted for them to come into every day. >> There's now clear visibility, at least in today's world, not withstanding some of the setbacks from COVID, that a young girl can look out in a company and see a path from entry level to the boardroom. That's a big change. A lot than even going back 10, 15, 20 years ago. What's your advice to the folks out there that are paying it forward? You see a lot of executive leaderships have a seat at the table. The board still underrepresented by most numbers, but at least you have now kind of this solidarity at the top, but a lot of people doing a lot more now than I've seen at the next levels down. So now you have this leveled approach. Is that something that you're seeing more of? And credit compare and contrast that to 20 years ago when you were, you know, rising through the ranks? What's different? >> Well, one of the main things, and I honestly do not think about it too much, but there were really no women. There were none. When I showed up in the meetings, I literally, it was me or not me at the table, but at the seat behind the table. The women just weren't in the room, and there were so many more barriers that we had to push through, and that has changed a lot. I mean globally that has changed a lot in the U.S. You know, if you look at just our U.S. House of Representatives and our U.S. Senate, we now have the increasing number of women. Even at leadership levels, you're seeing that change. You have a lot more women on boards than we ever thought we would ever represent. While we are not there, more female CEOs that I get an opportunity to see and talk to. Women starting companies, they do not see the barriers. And I will share, John, globally in the U.S. one of the things that I still see that we have that many other countries don't have, which I'm very proud of, women in the U.S. have a spirit about them that they just don't see the barriers in the same way. They believe that they can accomplish anything. I have two sons, I don't have daughters. I have nieces, and I'm hoping someday to have granddaughters. But I know that a lot of my friends who have granddaughters today talk about the boldness, the fortitude, that they believe that there's nothing they can't accomplish. And I think that's what what we have to instill in every little girl out there, that they can accomplish anything they want to. The world is theirs, and we need to not just do that in the U.S., but around the world. And it was always the thing that struck me when I did all my travels at AWS and now with Flexport, I'm traveling again quite a bit, is just the differences you see in the cultures around the world. And I remember even in the Middle East, how I started seeing it change. You've heard me talk a lot on this program about the fact in both Saudi and Bahrain, over 60% of the tech workers were females and most of them held the the hardest jobs, the security, the architecture, the engineering. But many of them did not hold leadership roles. And that is what we've got to change too. To your point, the middle, we want it to get bigger, but the top, we need to get bigger. We need to make sure women globally have opportunities to hold the most precious leadership roles and demonstrate their capabilities at the very top. But that's changed. And I would say the biggest difference is when we show up, we're actually evaluated properly for those kind of roles. We have a ways to go. But again, that part is really changing. >> Can you share, Teresa, first of all, that's great work you've done and I wan to give you props of that as well and all the work you do. I know you champion a lot of, you know, causes in in this area. One question that comes up a lot, I would love to get your opinion 'cause I think you can contribute heavily here is mentoring and sponsorship is huge, comes up all the time. What advice would you share to folks out there who were, I won't say apprehensive, but maybe nervous about how to do the networking and sponsorship and mentoring? It's not just mentoring, it's sponsorship too. What's your best practice? What advice would you give for the best way to handle that? >> Well yeah, and for the women out there, I would say on the mentorship side, I still see mentorship. Like, I don't think you can ever stop having mentorship. And I like to look at my mentors in different parts of my life because if you want to be a well-rounded person, you may have parts of your life every day that you think I'm doing a great job here and I definitely would like to do better there. Whether it's your spiritual life, your physical life, your work life, you know, your leisure life. But I mean there's, and there's parts of my leadership world that I still seek advice from as I try to do new things even in this world. And I tried some new things in between roles. I went out and asked the people that I respected the most. So I just would say for sure have different mentorships and don't be afraid to have that diversity. But if you have mentorships, the second important thing is show up with a real agenda and questions. Don't waste people's time. I'm very sensitive today. If you're, if you want a mentor, you show up and you use your time super effectively and be prepared for that. Sponsorship is a very different thing. And I don't believe we actually do that still in companies. We worked, thank goodness for my great HR team. When I was at AWS, we worked on a few sponsorship programs where for diversity in general, where we would nominate individuals in the company that we felt that weren't, that had a lot of opportunity for growth, but they just weren't getting a seat at the table. And we brought 'em to the table. And we actually kind of had a Chatham House rules where when they came into the meetings, they had a sponsor, not a mentor. They had a sponsor that was with them the full 18 months of this program. We would bring 'em into executive meetings. They would read docs, they could ask questions. We wanted them to be able to open up and ask crazy questions without, you know, feeling wow, I just couldn't answer this question in a normal environment or setting. And then we tried to make sure once they got through the program that we found jobs and support and other special projects that they could go do. But they still had that sponsor and that group of individuals that they'd gone through the program with, John, that they could keep going back to. And I remember sitting there and they asked me what I wanted to get out of the program, and I said two things. I want you to leave this program and say to yourself, I would've never had that experience if I hadn't gone through this program. I learned so much in 18 months. It would probably taken me five years to learn. And that it helped them in their career. The second thing I told them is I wanted them to go out and recruit individuals that look like them. I said, we need diversity, and unless you all feel that we are in an inclusive environment sponsoring all types of individuals to be part of this company, we're not going to get the job done. And they said, okay. And you know, but it was really one, it was very much about them. That we took a group of individuals that had high potential and a very diverse with diverse backgrounds, held 'em up, taught 'em things that gave them access. And two, selfishly I said, I want more of you in my business. Please help me. And I think those kind of things are helpful, and you have to be thoughtful about these kind of programs. And to me that's more sponsorship. I still have people reach out to me from years ago, you know, Microsoft saying, you were so good with me, can you give me a reference now? Can you talk to me about what I should be doing? And I try to, I'm not pray 100%, some things pray fall through the cracks, but I always try to make the time to talk to those individuals because for me, I am where I am today because I got some of the best advice from people like Don Byrne and Linda Zecker and Andy Jassy, who were very honest and upfront with me about my career. >> Awesome. Well, you got a passion for empowering women in tech, paying it forward, but you're quite accomplished and that's why we're so glad to have you on the program here. President and Chief Commercial Officer at Flexport. Obviously storied career and your other jobs, specifically Amazon I think, is historic in my mind. This next chapter looks like it's looking good right now. Final question for you, for the few minutes you have left. Tell us what you're up to at Flexport. What's your goals as President, Chief Commercial Officer? What are you trying to accomplish? Share a little bit, what's on your mind with your current job? >> Well, you kind of said it earlier. I think if I look at my own superpowers, I love customers, I love partners. I get my energy, John, from those interactions. So one is to come in and really help us build even a better world class enterprise global sales and marketing team. Really listen to our customers, think about how we interact with them, build the best executive programs we can, think about new ways that we can offer services to them and create new services. One of my favorite things about my career is I think if you're a business leader, it's your job to come back around and tell your product group and your services org what you're hearing from customers. That's how you can be so much more impactful, that you listen, you learn, and you deliver. So that's one big job. The second job for me, which I am so excited about, is that I have an amazing group called flexport.org under me. And flexport.org is doing amazing things around the world to help those in need. We just announced this new funding program for Tech for Refugees, which brings assistance to millions of people in Ukraine, Pakistan, the horn of Africa, and those who are affected by earthquakes. We just took supplies into Turkey and Syria, and Flexport, recently in fact, just did sent three air shipments to Turkey and Syria for these. And I think we did over a hundred trekking shipments to get earthquake relief. And as you can imagine, it was not easy to get into Syria. But you know, we're very active in the Ukraine, and we are, our goal for flexport.org, John, is to continue to work with our commercial customers and team up with them when they're trying to get supplies in to do that in a very cost effective, easy way, as quickly as we can. So that not-for-profit side of me that I'm so, I'm so happy. And you know, Ryan Peterson, who was our founder, this was his brainchild, and he's really taken this to the next level. So I'm honored to be able to pick that up and look for new ways to have impact around the world. And you know, I've always found that I think if you do things right with a company, you can have a beautiful combination of commercial-ity and giving. And I think Flexport does it in such an amazing and unique way. >> Well, the impact that they have with their system and their technology with logistics and shipping and supply chain is a channel for societal change. And I think that's a huge gift that you have that under your purview. So looking forward to finding out more about flexport.org. I can only imagine all the exciting things around sustainability, and we just had Mobile World Congress for Big Cube Broadcast, 5Gs right around the corner. I'm sure that's going to have a huge impact to your business. >> Well, for sure. And just on gas emissions, that's another thing that we are tracking gas, greenhouse gas emissions. And in fact we've already reduced more than 300,000 tons and supported over 600 organizations doing that. So that's a thing we're also trying to make sure that we're being climate aware and ensuring that we are doing the best job we can at that as well. And that was another thing I was honored to be able to do when we were at AWS, is to really cut out greenhouse gas emissions and really go global with our climate initiatives. >> Well Teresa, it's great to have you on. Security, data, 5G, sustainability, business transformation, AI all coming together to change the game. You're in another hot seat, hot roll, big wave. >> Well, John, it's an honor, and just thank you again for doing this and having women on and really representing us in a big way as we celebrate International Women's Day. >> I really appreciate it, it's super important. And these videos have impact, so we're going to do a lot more. And I appreciate your leadership to the industry and thank you so much for taking the time to contribute to our effort. Thank you, Teresa. >> Thank you. Thanks everybody. >> Teresa Carlson, the President and Chief Commercial Officer of Flexport. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. This is International Women's Day broadcast. Thanks for watching. (upbeat outro music)

(bright music) >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to theCUBE special presentation of International Women's Day. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. This is a global special open program we're doing every year. We're going to continue it every quarter. We're going to do more and more content, getting the voices out there and celebrating the diversity. And I'm excited to have an amazing guest here, LaDavia Drane, who's the head of Global Inclusion Diversity & Equity at AWS. LaDavia, we tried to get you in on AWS re:Invent, and you were super busy. So much going on. The industry has seen the light. They're seeing everything going on, and the numbers are up, but still not there, and getting better. This is your passion, our passion, a shared passion. Tell us about your situation, your career, how you got into it. What's your story? >> Yeah. Well, John, first of all, thank you so much for having me. I'm glad that we finally got this opportunity to speak. How did I get into this work? Wow, you know, I'm doing the work that I love to do, number one. It's always been my passion to be a voice for the voiceless, to create a seat at the table for folks that may not be welcome to certain tables. And so, it's been something that's been kind of the theme of my entire professional career. I started off as a lawyer, went to Capitol Hill, was able to do some work with members of Congress, both women members of Congress, but also, minority members of Congress in the US Congress. And then, that just morphed into what I think has become a career for me in inclusion, diversity, and equity. I decided to join Amazon because I could tell that it's a company that was ready to take it to the next level in this space. And sure enough, that's been my experience here. So now, I'm in it, I'm in it with two feet, doing great work. And yeah, yeah, it's almost a full circle moment for me. >> It's really an interesting background. You have a background in public policy. You mentioned Capitol Hill. That's awesome. DC kind of moves slow, but it's a complicated machinery there. Obviously, as you know, navigating that, Amazon grew significantly. We've been at every re:Invent with theCUBE since 2013, like just one year. I watched Amazon grow, and they've become very fast and also complicated, like, I won't say like Capitol, 'cause that's very slow, but Amazon's complicated. AWS is in the realm of powering a generation of public policy. We had the JEDI contract controversy, all kinds of new emerging challenges. This pivot to tech was great timing because one, (laughs) Amazon needed it because they were growing so fast in a male dominated world, but also, their business is having real impact on the public. >> That's right, that's right. And when you say the public, I'll just call it out. I think that there's a full spectrum of diversity and we work backwards from our customers, and our customers are diverse. And so, I really do believe, I agree that I came to the right place at the right time. And yeah, we move fast and we're also moving fast in this space of making sure that both internally and externally, we're doing the things that we need to do in order to reach a diverse population. >> You know, I've noticed how Amazon's changed from the culture, male dominated culture. Let's face it, it was. And now, I've seen over the past five years, specifically go back five, is kind of in my mental model, just the growth of female leaders, it's been impressive. And there was some controversy. They were criticized publicly for this. And we said a few things as well in those, like around 2014. How is Amazon ensuring and continuing to get the female employees feel represented and empowered? What's going on there? What programs do you have? Because it's not just doing it, it's continuing it, right? And 'cause there is a lot more to do. I mean, the half (laughs) the products are digital now for everybody. It's not just one population. (laughs) Everyone uses digital products. What is Amazon doing now to keep it going? >> Well, I'll tell you, John, it's important for me to note that while we've made great progress, there's still more that can be done. I am very happy to be able to report that we have big women leaders. We have leaders running huge parts of our business, which includes storage, customer experience, industries and business development. And yes, we have all types of programs. And I should say that, instead of calling it programs, I'm going to call it strategic initiatives, right? We are very thoughtful about how we engage our women. And not only how we hire, attract women, but how we retain our women. We do that through engagement, groups like our affinity groups. So Women at Amazon is an affinity group. Women in finance, women in engineering. Just recently, I helped our Black employee network women's group launch, BEN Women. And so you have these communities of women who come together, support and mentor one another. We have what we call Amazon Circles. And so these are safe spaces where women can come together and can have conversations, where we are able to connect mentors and sponsors. And we're seeing that it's making all the difference in the world for our women. And we see that through what we call Connections. We have an inclusion sentiment tracker. So we're able to ask questions every single day and we get a response from our employees and we can see how are our women feeling, how are they feeling included at work? Are they feeling as though they can be who they are authentically at Amazon? And so, again, there's more work that needs to be done. But I will say that as I look at the data, as I'm talking to engaging women, I really do believe that we're on the right path. >> LaDavia, talk about the urgent needs of the women that you're hearing from the Circles. That's a great program. The affinity circles, the groups are great. Now, you have the groups, what are you hearing? What are the needs of the women? >> So, John, I'll just go a little bit into what's becoming a conversation around equity. So, initially I think we talked a lot about equality, right? We wanted everyone to have fair access to the same things. But now, women are looking for equity. We're talking about not just leveling the playing field, which is equality, but don't give me the same as you give everyone else. Instead, recognize that I may have different circumstances, I may have different needs. And give me what I need, right? Give me what I need, not just the same as everyone else. And so, I love seeing women evolve in this way, and being very specific about what they need more than, or what's different than what a man may have in the same situation because their circumstances are not always the same and we should treat them as such. >> Yeah, I think that's a great equity point. I interviewed a woman here, ex-Amazonian, she's now a GSI, Global System Integrator. She's a single mom. And she said remote work brought her equity because people on her team realized that she was a single mom. And it wasn't the, how do you balance life, it was her reality. And what happened was, she had more empathy with the team because of the new work environment. So, I think this is an important point to call out, that equity, because that really makes things smoother in terms of the interactions, not the assumptions, you have to be, you know, always the same as a man. So, how does that go? What's the current... How would you characterize the progress in that area right now? >> I believe that employers are just getting better at this. It's just like you said, with the hybrid being the norm now, you have an employer who is looking at people differently based on what they need. And it's not a problem, it's not an issue that a single mother says, "Well, I need to be able to leave by 5:00 PM." I think that employers now, and Amazon is right there along with other employers, are starting just to evolve that muscle of meeting the needs. People don't have to feel different. You don't have to feel as though there's some kind of of special circumstance for me. Instead, it's something that we, as employers, we're asking for. And we want to meet those needs that are different in some situations. >> I know you guys do a lot of support of women outside of AWS, and I had a story I recorded for the program. This woman, she talked about how she was a nerd from day one. She's a tomboy. They called her a tomboy, but she always loved robotics. And she ended up getting dual engineering degrees. And she talked about how she didn't run away and there was many signals to her not to go. And she powered through, at that time, and during her generation, that was tough. And she was successful. How are you guys taking the education to STEM, to women, at young ages? Because we don't want to turn people away from tech if they have the natural affinity towards it. And not everyone is going to be, as, you know, (laughs) strong, if you will. And she was a bulldog, she was great. She's just like, "I'm going for it. I love it so much." But not everyone's like that. So, this is an educational thing. How do you expose technology, STEM for instance, and making it more accessible, no stigma, all that stuff? I mean, I think we've come a long way, but still. >> What I love about women is we don't just focus on ourselves. We do a very good job of thinking about the generation that's coming after us. And so, I think you will see that very clearly with our women Amazonians. I'll talk about three different examples of ways that Amazonian women in particular, and there are men that are helping out, but I'll talk about the women in particular that are leading in this area. On my team, in the Inclusion, Diversity & Equity team, we have a program that we run in Ghana where we meet basic STEM needs for a afterschool program. So we've taken this small program, and we've turned their summer camp into this immersion, where girls and boys, we do focus on the girls, can come and be completely immersed in STEM. And when we provide the technology that they need, so that they'll be able to have access to this whole new world of STEM. Another program which is run out of our AWS In Communities team, called AWS Girls' Tech Day. All across the world where we have data centers, we're running these Girls' Tech Day. They're basically designed to educate, empower and inspire girls to pursue a career in tech. Really, really exciting. I was at the Girls' Tech Day here recently in Columbus, Ohio, and I got to tell you, it was the highlight of my year. And then I'll talk a little bit about one more, it's called AWS GetIT, and it's been around for a while. So this is a program, again, it's a global program, it's actually across 13 countries. And it allows girls to explore cloud technology, in particular, and to use it to solve real world problems. Those are just three examples. There are many more. There are actually women Amazonians that create these opportunities off the side of their desk in they're local communities. We, in Inclusion, Diversity & Equity, we fund programs so that women can do this work, this STEM work in their own local communities. But those are just three examples of some of the things that our Amazonians are doing to bring girls along, to make sure that the next generation is set up and that the next generation knows that STEM is accessible for girls. >> I'm a huge believer. I think that's amazing. That's great inspiration. We need more of that. It's awesome. And why wouldn't we spread it around? I want to get to the equity piece, that's the theme for this year's IWD. But before that, getting that segment, I want to ask you about your title, and the choice of words and the sequence. Okay, Global Inclusion, Diversity, Equity. Not diversity only. Inclusion is first. We've had this debate on theCUBE many years now, a few years back, it started with, "Inclusion is before diversity," "No, diversity before inclusion, equity." And so there's always been a debate (laughs) around the choice of words and their order. What's your opinion? What's your reaction to that? Is it by design? And does inclusion come before diversity, or am I just reading it to it? >> Inclusion doesn't necessarily come before diversity. (John laughs) It doesn't necessarily come before equity. Equity isn't last, but we do lead with inclusion in AWS. And that is very important to us, right? And thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk a little bit about it. We lead with inclusion because we want to make sure that every single one of our builders know that they have a place in this work. And so it's important that we don't only focus on hiring, right? Diversity, even though there are many, many different levels and spectrums to diversity. Inclusion, if you start there, I believe that it's what it takes to make sure that you have a workplace where everyone knows you're included here, you belong here, we want you to stay here. And so, it helps as we go after diversity. And we want all types of people to be a part of our workforce, but we want you to stay. And inclusion is the thing. It's the thing that I believe makes sure that people stay because they feel included. So we lead with inclusion. Doesn't mean that we put diversity or equity second or third, but we are proud to lead with inclusion. >> Great description. That was fabulous. Totally agree. Double click, thumbs up. Now let's get into the theme. Embracing equity, 'cause this is a term, it's in quotes. What does that mean to you? You mentioned it earlier, I love it. What does embrace equity mean? >> Yeah. You know, I do believe that when people think about equity, especially non-women think about equity, it's kind of scary. It's, "Am I going to give away what I have right now to make space for someone else?" But that's not what equity means. And so I think that it's first important that we just educate ourselves about what equity really is. It doesn't mean that someone's going to take your spot, right? It doesn't mean that the pie, let's use that analogy, gets smaller. The pie gets bigger, right? >> John: Mm-hmm. >> And everyone is able to have their piece of the pie. And so, I do believe that I love that IWD, International Women's Day is leading with embracing equity because we're going to the heart of the matter when we go to equity, we're going to the place where most people feel most challenged, and challenging people to think about equity and what it means and how they can contribute to equity and thus, embrace equity. >> Yeah, I love it. And the advice that you have for tech professionals out there on this, how do you advise other groups? 'Cause you guys are doing a lot of great work. Other organizations are catching up. What would be your advice to folks who are working on this equity challenge to reach gender equity and other equitable strategic initiatives? And everyone's working on this. Sustainability and equity are two big projects we're seeing in every single company right now. >> Yeah, yeah. I will say that I believe that AWS has proven that equity and going after equity does work. Embracing equity does work. One example I would point to is our AWS Impact Accelerator program. I mean, we provide 30 million for early stage startups led by women, Black founders, Latino founders, LGBTQ+ founders, to help them scale their business. That's equity. That's giving them what they need. >> John: Yeah. >> What they need is they need access to capital. And so, what I'd say to companies who are looking at going into the space of equity, I would say embrace it. Embrace it. Look at examples of what companies like AWS is doing around it and embrace it because I do believe that the tech industry will be better when we're comfortable with embracing equity and creating strategic initiatives so that we could expand equity and make it something that's just, it's just normal. It's the normal course of business. It's what we do. It's what we expect of ourselves and our employees. >> LaDavia, you're amazing. Thank you for spending the time. My final couple questions really more around you. Capitol Hill, DC, Amazon Global Head of Inclusion, Diversity & Equity, as you look at making change, being a change agent, being a leader, is really kind of similar, right? You've got DC, it's hard to make change there, but if you do it, it works, right? (laughs) If you don't, you're on the side of the road. So, as you're in your job now, what are you most excited about? What's on your agenda? What's your focus? >> Yeah, so I'm most excited about the potential of what we can get done, not just for builders that are currently in our seats, but for builders in the future. I tend to focus on that little girl. I don't know her, I don't know where she lives. I don't know how old she is now, but she's somewhere in the world, and I want her to grow up and for there to be no question that she has access to AWS, that she can be an employee at AWS. And so, that's where I tend to center, I center on the future. I try to build now, for what's to come, to make sure that this place is accessible for that little girl. >> You know, I've always been saying for a long time, the software is eating the world, now you got digital transformation, business transformation. And that's not a male only, or certain category, it's everybody. And so, software that's being built, and the systems that are being built, have to have first principles. Andy Jassy is very strong on this. He's been publicly saying, when trying to get pinned down about certain books in the bookstore that might offend another group. And he's like, "Look, we have first principles. First principles is a big part of leading." What's your reaction to that? How would you talk to another professional and say, "Hey," you know this, "How do I make the right call? Am I doing the wrong thing here? And I might say the wrong thing here." And is it first principles based? What's the guardrails? How do you keep that in check? How would you advise someone as they go forward and lean in to drive some of the change that we're talking about today? >> Yeah, I think as leaders, we have to trust ourselves. And Andy actually, is a great example. When I came in as head of ID&E for AWS, he was our CEO here at AWS. And I saw how he authentically spoke from his heart about these issues. And it just aligned with who he is personally, his own personal principles. And I do believe that leaders should be free to do just that. Not to be scripted, but to lead with their principles. And so, I think Andy's actually a great example. I believe that I am the professional in this space at this company that I am today because of the example that Andy set. >> Yeah, you guys do a great job, LaDavia. What's next for you? >> What's next. >> World tour, you traveling around? What's on your plate these days? Share a little bit about what you're currently working on. >> Yeah, so you know, at Amazon, we're always diving deep. We're always diving deep, we're looking for root cause, working very hard to look around corners, and trying to build now for what's to come in the future. And so I'll continue to do that. Of course, we're always planning and working towards re:Invent, so hopefully, John, I'll see you at re:Invent this December. But we have some great things happening throughout the year, and we'll continue to... I think it's really important, as opposed to looking to do new things, to just continue to flex the same muscles and to show that we can be very, very focused and intentional about doing the same things over and over each year to just become better and better at this work in this space, and to show our employees that we're committed for the long haul. So of course, there'll be new things on the horizon, but what I can say, especially to Amazonians, is we're going to continue to stay focused, and continue to get at this issue, and doing this issue of inclusion, diversity and equity, and continue to do the things that work and make sure that our culture evolves at the same time. >> LaDavia, thank you so much. I'll give you the final word. Just share some of the big projects you guys are working on so people can know about them, your strategic initiatives. Take a minute to plug some of the major projects and things that are going on that people either know about or should know about, or need to know about. Take a minute to share some of the big things you guys got going on, or most of the things. >> So, one big thing that I would like to focus on, focus my time on, is what we call our Innovation Fund. This is actually how we scale our work and we meet the community's needs by providing micro grants to our employees so our employees can go out into the world and sponsor all types of different activities, create activities in their local communities, or throughout the regions. And so, that's probably one thing that I would like to focus on just because number one, it's our employees, it's how we scale this work, and it's how we meet our community's needs in a very global way. And so, thank you John, for the opportunity to talk a bit about what we're up to here at Amazon Web Services. But it's just important to me, that I end with our employees because for me, that's what's most important. And they're doing some awesome work through our Innovation Fund. >> Inclusion makes the workplace great. Empowerment, with that kind of program, is amazing. LaDavia Drane, thank you so much. Head of Global Inclusion and Diversity & Equity at AWS. This is International Women's Day. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. Thanks for watching and stay with us for more great interviews and people and what they're working on. Thanks for watching. (bright music)

hello I'm John Furrier with thecube and welcome to this special presentation of the cube and Horizon 3.ai they're announcing a global partner first approach expanding their successful pen testing product Net Zero you're going to hear from leading experts in their staff their CEO positioning themselves for a successful Channel distribution expansion internationally in Europe Middle East Africa and Asia Pacific in this Cube special presentation you'll hear about the expansion the expanse partner program giving Partners a unique opportunity to offer Net Zero to their customers Innovation and Pen testing is going International with Horizon 3.ai enjoy the program [Music] welcome back everyone to the cube and Horizon 3.ai special presentation I'm John Furrier host of thecube we're here with Jennifer Lee head of Channel sales at Horizon 3.ai Jennifer welcome to the cube thanks for coming on great well thank you for having me so big news around Horizon 3.aa driving Channel first commitment you guys are expanding the channel partner program to include all kinds of new rewards incentives training programs help educate you know Partners really drive more recurring Revenue certainly cloud and Cloud scale has done that you got a great product that fits into that kind of Channel model great Services you can wrap around it good stuff so let's get into it what are you guys doing what are what are you guys doing with this news why is this so important yeah for sure so um yeah we like you said we recently expanded our Channel partner program um the driving force behind it was really just um to align our like you said our Channel first commitment um and creating awareness around the importance of our partner ecosystems um so that's it's really how we go to market is is through the channel and a great International Focus I've talked with the CEO so you know about the solution and he broke down all the action on why it's important on the product side but why now on the go to market change what's the what's the why behind this big this news on the channel yeah for sure so um we are doing this now really to align our business strategy which is built on the concept of enabling our partners to create a high value high margin business on top of our platform and so um we offer a solution called node zero it provides autonomous pen testing as a service and it allows organizations to continuously verify their security posture um so we our company vision we have this tagline that states that our pen testing enables organizations to see themselves Through The Eyes of an attacker and um we use the like the attacker's perspective to identify exploitable weaknesses and vulnerabilities so we created this partner program from a perspective of the partner so the partner's perspective and we've built It Through The Eyes of our partner right so we're prioritizing really what the partner is looking for and uh will ensure like Mutual success for us yeah the partners always want to get in front of the customers and bring new stuff to them pen tests have traditionally been really expensive uh and so bringing it down in one to a service level that's one affordable and has flexibility to it allows a lot of capability so I imagine people getting excited by it so I have to ask you about the program What specifically are you guys doing can you share any details around what it means for the partners what they get what's in it for them can you just break down some of the mechanics and mechanisms or or details yeah yep um you know we're really looking to create business alignment um and like I said establish Mutual success with our partners so we've got two um two key elements that we were really focused on um that we bring to the partners so the opportunity the profit margin expansion is one of them and um a way for our partners to really differentiate themselves and stay relevant in the market so um we've restructured our discount model really um you know highlighting profitability and maximizing profitability and uh this includes our deal registration we've we've created deal registration program we've increased discount for partners who take part in our partner certification uh trainings and we've we have some other partner incentives uh that we we've created that that's going to help out there we've we put this all so we've recently Gone live with our partner portal um it's a Consolidated experience for our partners where they can access our our sales tools and we really view our partners as an extension of our sales and Technical teams and so we've extended all of our our training material that we use internally we've made it available to our partners through our partner portal um we've um I'm trying I'm thinking now back what else is in that partner portal here we've got our partner certification information so all the content that's delivered during that training can be found in the portal we've got deal registration uh um co-branded marketing materials pipeline management and so um this this portal gives our partners a One-Stop place to to go to find all that information um and then just really quickly on the second part of that that I mentioned is our technology really is um really disruptive to the market so you know like you said autonomous pen testing it's um it's still it's well it's still still relatively new topic uh for security practitioners and um it's proven to be really disruptive so um that on top of um just well recently we found an article that um that mentioned by markets and markets that reports that the global pen testing markets really expanding and so it's expected to grow to like 2.7 billion um by 2027. so the Market's there right the Market's expanding it's growing and so for our partners it's just really allows them to grow their revenue um across their customer base expand their customer base and offering this High profit margin while you know getting in early to Market on this just disruptive technology big Market a lot of opportunities to make some money people love to put more margin on on those deals especially when you can bring a great solution that everyone knows is hard to do so I think that's going to provide a lot of value is there is there a type of partner that you guys see emerging or you aligning with you mentioned the alignment with the partners I can see how that the training and the incentives are all there sounds like it's all going well is there a type of partner that's resonating the most or is there categories of partners that can take advantage of this yeah absolutely so we work with all different kinds of Partners we work with our traditional resale Partners um we've worked we're working with systems integrators we have a really strong MSP mssp program um we've got Consulting partners and the Consulting Partners especially with the ones that offer pen test services so we they use us as a as we act as a force multiplier just really offering them profit margin expansion um opportunity there we've got some technology partner partners that we really work with for co-cell opportunities and then we've got our Cloud Partners um you'd mentioned that earlier and so we are in AWS Marketplace so our ccpo partners we're part of the ISP accelerate program um so we we're doing a lot there with our Cloud partners and um of course we uh we go to market with uh distribution Partners as well gotta love the opportunity for more margin expansion every kind of partner wants to put more gross profit on their deals is there a certification involved I have to ask is there like do you get do people get certified or is it just you get trained is it self-paced training is it in person how are you guys doing the whole training certification thing because is that is that a requirement yeah absolutely so we do offer a certification program and um it's been very popular this includes a a seller's portion and an operator portion and and so um this is at no cost to our partners and um we operate both virtually it's it's law it's virtually but live it's not self-paced and we also have in person um you know sessions as well and we also can customize these to any partners that have a large group of people and we can just we can do one in person or virtual just specifically for that partner well any kind of incentive opportunities and marketing opportunities everyone loves to get the uh get the deals just kind of rolling in leads from what we can see if our early reporting this looks like a hot product price wise service level wise what incentive do you guys thinking about and and Joint marketing you mentioned co-sell earlier in pipeline so I was kind of kind of honing in on that piece sure and yes and then to follow along with our partner certification program we do incentivize our partners there if they have a certain number certified their discount increases so that's part of it we have our deal registration program that increases discount as well um and then we do have some um some partner incentives that are wrapped around meeting setting and um moving moving opportunities along to uh proof of value gotta love the education driving value I have to ask you so you've been around the industry you've seen the channel relationships out there you're seeing companies old school new school you know uh Horizon 3.ai is kind of like that new school very cloud specific a lot of Leverage with we mentioned AWS and all the clouds um why is the company so hot right now why did you join them and what's why are people attracted to this company what's the what's the attraction what's the vibe what do you what do you see and what what do you use what did you see in in this company well this is just you know like I said it's very disruptive um it's really in high demand right now and um and and just because because it's new to Market and uh a newer technology so we are we can collaborate with a manual pen tester um we can you know we can allow our customers to run their pen test um with with no specialty teams and um and and then so we and like you know like I said we can allow our partners can actually build businesses profitable businesses so we can they can use our product to increase their services revenue and um and build their business model you know around around our services what's interesting about the pen test thing is that it's very expensive and time consuming the people who do them are very talented people that could be working on really bigger things in the in absolutely customers so bringing this into the channel allows them if you look at the price Delta between a pen test and then what you guys are offering I mean that's a huge margin Gap between street price of say today's pen test and what you guys offer when you show people that they follow do they say too good to be true I mean what are some of the things that people say when you kind of show them that are they like scratch their head like come on what's the what's the catch here right so the cost savings is a huge is huge for us um and then also you know like I said working as a force multiplier with a pen testing company that offers the services and so they can they can do their their annual manual pen tests that may be required around compliance regulations and then we can we can act as the continuous verification of their security um um you know that that they can run um weekly and so it's just um you know it's just an addition to to what they're offering already and an expansion so Jennifer thanks for coming on thecube really appreciate you uh coming on sharing the insights on the channel uh what's next what can we expect from the channel group what are you thinking what's going on right so we're really looking to expand our our Channel um footprint and um very strategically uh we've got um we've got some big plans um for for Horizon 3.ai awesome well thanks for coming on really appreciate it you're watching thecube the leader in high tech Enterprise coverage [Music] [Music] hello and welcome to the Cube's special presentation with Horizon 3.ai with Raina Richter vice president of emea Europe Middle East and Africa and Asia Pacific APAC for Horizon 3 today welcome to this special Cube presentation thanks for joining us thank you for the invitation so Horizon 3 a guy driving Global expansion big international news with a partner first approach you guys are expanding internationally let's get into it you guys are driving this new expanse partner program to new heights tell us about it what are you seeing in the momentum why the expansion what's all the news about well I would say uh yeah in in international we have I would say a similar similar situation like in the US um there is a global shortage of well-educated penetration testers on the one hand side on the other side um we have a raising demand of uh network and infrastructure security and with our approach of an uh autonomous penetration testing I I believe we are totally on top of the game um especially as we have also now uh starting with an international instance that means for example if a customer in Europe is using uh our service node zero he will be connected to a node zero instance which is located inside the European Union and therefore he has doesn't have to worry about the conflict between the European the gdpr regulations versus the US Cloud act and I would say there we have a total good package for our partners that they can provide differentiators to their customers you know we've had great conversations here on thecube with the CEO and the founder of the company around the leverage of the cloud and how successful that's been for the company and honestly I can just Connect the Dots here but I'd like you to weigh in more on how that translates into the go to market here because you got great Cloud scale with with the security product you guys are having success with great leverage there I've seen a lot of success there what's the momentum on the channel partner program internationally why is it so important to you is it just the regional segmentation is it the economics why the momentum well there are it's there are multiple issues first of all there is a raising demand in penetration testing um and don't forget that uh in international we have a much higher level in number a number or percentage in SMB and mid-market customers so these customers typically most of them even didn't have a pen test done once a year so for them pen testing was just too expensive now with our offering together with our partners we can provide different uh ways how customers could get an autonomous pen testing done more than once a year with even lower costs than they had with with a traditional manual paint test so and that is because we have our uh Consulting plus package which is for typically pain testers they can go out and can do a much faster much quicker and their pain test at many customers once in after each other so they can do more pain tests on a lower more attractive price on the other side there are others what even the same ones who are providing um node zero as an mssp service so they can go after s p customers saying okay well you only have a couple of hundred uh IP addresses no worries we have the perfect package for you and then you have let's say the mid Market let's say the thousands and more employees then they might even have an annual subscription very traditional but for all of them it's all the same the customer or the service provider doesn't need a piece of Hardware they only need to install a small piece of a Docker container and that's it and that makes it so so smooth to go in and say okay Mr customer we just put in this this virtual attacker into your network and that's it and and all the rest is done and within within three clicks they are they can act like a pen tester with 20 years of experience and that's going to be very Channel friendly and partner friendly I can almost imagine so I have to ask you and thank you for calling the break calling out that breakdown and and segmentation that was good that was very helpful for me to understand but I want to follow up if you don't mind um what type of partners are you seeing the most traction with and why well I would say at the beginning typically you have the the innovators the early adapters typically Boutique size of Partners they start because they they are always looking for Innovation and those are the ones you they start in the beginning so we have a wide range of Partners having mostly even um managed by the owner of the company so uh they immediately understand okay there is the value and they can change their offering they're changing their offering in terms of penetration testing because they can do more pen tests and they can then add other ones or we have those ones who offer 10 tests services but they did not have their own pen testers so they had to go out on the open market and Source paint testing experts um to get the pen test at a particular customer done and now with node zero they're totally independent they can't go out and say okay Mr customer here's the here's the service that's it we turn it on and within an hour you're up and running totally yeah and those pen tests are usually expensive and hard to do now it's right in line with the sales delivery pretty interesting for a partner absolutely but on the other hand side we are not killing the pain testers business we do something we're providing with no tiers I would call something like the foundation work the foundational work of having an an ongoing penetration testing of the infrastructure the operating system and the pen testers by themselves they can concentrate in the future on things like application pen testing for example so those Services which we we're not touching so we're not killing the paint tester Market we're just taking away the ongoing um let's say foundation work call it that way yeah yeah that was one of my questions I was going to ask is there's a lot of interest in this autonomous pen testing one because it's expensive to do because those skills are required are in need and they're expensive so you kind of cover the entry level and the blockers that are in there I've seen people say to me this pen test becomes a blocker for getting things done so there's been a lot of interest in the autonomous pen testing and for organizations to have that posture and it's an overseas issue too because now you have that that ongoing thing so can you explain that particular benefit for an organization to have that continuously verifying an organization's posture yep certainly so I would say um typically you are you you have to do your patches you have to bring in new versions of operating systems of different Services of uh um operating systems of some components and and they are always bringing new vulnerabilities the difference here is that with node zero we are telling the customer or the partner package we're telling them which are the executable vulnerabilities because previously they might have had um a vulnerability scanner so this vulnerability scanner brought up hundreds or even thousands of cves but didn't say anything about which of them are vulnerable really executable and then you need an expert digging in one cve after the other finding out is it is it really executable yes or no and that is where you need highly paid experts which we have a shortage so with notes here now we can say okay we tell you exactly which ones are the ones you should work on because those are the ones which are executable we rank them accordingly to the risk level how easily they can be used and by a sudden and then the good thing is convert it or indifference to the traditional penetration test they don't have to wait for a year for the next pain test to find out if the fixing was effective they weren't just the next scan and say Yes closed vulnerability is gone the time is really valuable and if you're doing any devops Cloud native you're always pushing new things so pen test ongoing pen testing is actually a benefit just in general as a kind of hygiene so really really interesting solution really bring that global scale is going to be a new new coverage area for us for sure I have to ask you if you don't mind answering what particular region are you focused on or plan to Target for this next phase of growth well at this moment we are concentrating on the countries inside the European Union Plus the United Kingdom um but we are and they are of course logically I'm based into Frankfurt area that means we cover more or less the countries just around so it's like the total dark region Germany Switzerland Austria plus the Netherlands but we also already have Partners in the nordics like in Finland or in Sweden um so it's it's it it's rapidly we have Partners already in the UK and it's rapidly growing so I'm for example we are now starting with some activities in Singapore um um and also in the in the Middle East area um very important we uh depending on let's say the the way how to do business currently we try to concentrate on those countries where we can have um let's say um at least English as an accepted business language great is there any particular region you're having the most success with right now is it sounds like European Union's um kind of first wave what's them yes that's the first definitely that's the first wave and now we're also getting the uh the European instance up and running it's clearly our commitment also to the market saying okay we know there are certain dedicated uh requirements and we take care of this and and we're just launching it we're building up this one uh the instance um in the AWS uh service center here in Frankfurt also with some dedicated Hardware internet in a data center in Frankfurt where we have with the date six by the way uh the highest internet interconnection bandwidth on the planet so we have very short latency to wherever you are on on the globe that's a great that's a great call outfit benefit too I was going to ask that what are some of the benefits your partners are seeing in emea and Asia Pacific well I would say um the the benefits is for them it's clearly they can they can uh talk with customers and can offer customers penetration testing which they before and even didn't think about because it penetrates penetration testing in a traditional way was simply too expensive for them too complex the preparation time was too long um they didn't have even have the capacity uh to um to support a pain an external pain tester now with this service you can go in and say even if they Mr customer we can do a test with you in a couple of minutes within we have installed the docker container within 10 minutes we have the pen test started that's it and then we just wait and and I would say that is we'll we are we are seeing so many aha moments then now because on the partner side when they see node zero the first time working it's like this wow that is great and then they work out to customers and and show it to their typically at the beginning mostly the friendly customers like wow that's great I need that and and I would say um the feedback from the partners is that is a service where I do not have to evangelize the customer everybody understands penetration testing I don't have to say describe what it is they understand the customer understanding immediately yes penetration testing good about that I know I should do it but uh too complex too expensive now with the name is for example as an mssp service provided from one of our partners but it's getting easy yeah it's great and it's great great benefit there I mean I gotta say I'm a huge fan of what you guys are doing I like this continuous automation that's a major benefit to anyone doing devops or any kind of modern application development this is just a godsend for them this is really good and like you said the pen testers that are doing it they were kind of coming down from their expertise to kind of do things that should have been automated they get to focus on the bigger ticket items that's a really big point so we free them we free the pain testers for the higher level elements of the penetration testing segment and that is typically the application testing which is currently far away from being automated yeah and that's where the most critical workloads are and I think this is the nice balance congratulations on the international expansion of the program and thanks for coming on this special presentation really I really appreciate it thank you you're welcome okay this is thecube special presentation you know check out pen test automation International expansion Horizon 3 dot AI uh really Innovative solution in our next segment Chris Hill sector head for strategic accounts will discuss the power of Horizon 3.ai and Splunk in action you're watching the cube the leader in high tech Enterprise coverage foreign [Music] [Music] welcome back everyone to the cube and Horizon 3.ai special presentation I'm John Furrier host of thecube we're with Chris Hill sector head for strategic accounts and federal at Horizon 3.ai a great Innovative company Chris great to see you thanks for coming on thecube yeah like I said uh you know great to meet you John long time listener first time caller so excited to be here with you guys yeah we were talking before camera you had Splunk back in 2013 and I think 2012 was our first splunk.com and boy man you know talk about being in the right place at the right time now we're at another inflection point and Splunk continues to be relevant um and continuing to have that data driving Security in that interplay and your CEO former CTO of his plug as well at Horizon who's been on before really Innovative product you guys have but you know yeah don't wait for a breach to find out if you're logging the right data this is the topic of this thread Splunk is very much part of this new international expansion announcement uh with you guys tell us what are some of the challenges that you see where this is relevant for the Splunk and Horizon AI as you guys expand uh node zero out internationally yeah well so across so you know my role uh within Splunk it was uh working with our most strategic accounts and so I looked back to 2013 and I think about the sales process like working with with our small customers you know it was um it was still very siled back then like I was selling to an I.T team that was either using this for it operations um we generally would always even say yeah although we do security we weren't really designed for it we're a log management tool and we I'm sure you remember back then John we were like sort of stepping into the security space and and the public sector domain that I was in you know security was 70 of what we did when I look back to sort of uh the transformation that I was witnessing in that digital transformation um you know when I look at like 2019 to today you look at how uh the IT team and the security teams are being have been forced to break down those barriers that they used to sort of be silent away would not commute communicate one you know the security guys would be like oh this is my box I.T you're not allowed in today you can't get away with that and I think that the value that we bring to you know and of course Splunk has been a huge leader in that space and continues to do Innovation across the board but I think what we've we're seeing in the space and I was talking with Patrick Coughlin the SVP of uh security markets about this is that you know what we've been able to do with Splunk is build a purpose-built solution that allows Splunk to eat more data so Splunk itself is ulk know it's an ingest engine right the great reason people bought it was you could build these really fast dashboards and grab intelligence out of it but without data it doesn't do anything right so how do you drive and how do you bring more data in and most importantly from a customer perspective how do you bring the right data in and so if you think about what node zero and what we're doing in a horizon 3 is that sure we do pen testing but because we're an autonomous pen testing tool we do it continuously so this whole thought I'd be like oh crud like my customers oh yeah we got a pen test coming up it's gonna be six weeks the week oh yeah you know and everyone's gonna sit on their hands call me back in two months Chris we'll talk to you then right not not a real efficient way to test your environment and shoot we saw that with Uber this week right um you know and that's a case where we could have helped oh just right we could explain the Uber thing because it was a contractor just give a quick highlight of what happened so you can connect the doctor yeah no problem so um it was uh I got I think it was yeah one of those uh you know games where they would try and test an environment um and with the uh pen tester did was he kept on calling them MFA guys being like I need to reset my password we need to set my right password and eventually the um the customer service guy said okay I'm resetting it once he had reset and bypassed the multi-factor authentication he then was able to get in and get access to the building area that he was in or I think not the domain but he was able to gain access to a partial part of that Network he then paralleled over to what I would assume is like a VA VMware or some virtual machine that had notes that had all of the credentials for logging into various domains and So within minutes they had access and that's the sort of stuff that we do you know a lot of these tools like um you know you think about the cacophony of tools that are out there in a GTA architect architecture right I'm gonna get like a z-scale or I'm going to have uh octum and I have a Splunk I've been into the solar system I mean I don't mean to name names we have crowdstriker or Sentinel one in there it's just it's a cacophony of things that don't work together they weren't designed work together and so we have seen so many times in our business through our customer support and just working with customers when we do their pen tests that there will be 5 000 servers out there three are misconfigured those three misconfigurations will create the open door because remember the hacker only needs to be right once the defender needs to be right all the time and that's the challenge and so that's what I'm really passionate about what we're doing uh here at Horizon three I see this my digital transformation migration and security going on which uh we're at the tip of the spear it's why I joined sey Hall coming on this journey uh and just super excited about where the path's going and super excited about the relationship with Splunk I get into more details on some of the specifics of that but um you know well you're nailing I mean we've been doing a lot of things on super cloud and this next gen environment we're calling it next gen you're really seeing devops obviously devsecops has already won the it role has moved to the developer shift left is an indicator of that it's one of the many examples higher velocity code software supply chain you hear these things that means that it is now in the developer hands it is replaced by the new Ops data Ops teams and security where there's a lot of horizontal thinking to your point about access there's no more perimeter huge 100 right is really right on things one time you know to get in there once you're in then you can hang out move around move laterally big problem okay so we get that now the challenges for these teams as they are transitioning organizationally how do they figure out what to do okay this is the next step they already have Splunk so now they're kind of in transition while protecting for a hundred percent ratio of success so how would you look at that and describe the challenge is what do they do what is it what are the teams facing with their data and what's next what are they what are they what action do they take so let's use some vernacular that folks will know so if I think about devsecops right we both know what that means that I'm going to build security into the app it normally talks about sec devops right how am I building security around the perimeter of what's going inside my ecosystem and what are they doing and so if you think about what we're able to do with somebody like Splunk is we can pen test the entire environment from Soup To Nuts right so I'm going to test the end points through to its I'm going to look for misconfigurations I'm going to I'm going to look for um uh credential exposed credentials you know I'm going to look for anything I can in the environment again I'm going to do it at light speed and and what what we're doing for that SEC devops space is to you know did you detect that we were in your environment so did we alert Splunk or the Sim that there's someone in the environment laterally moving around did they more importantly did they log us into their environment and when do they detect that log to trigger that log did they alert on us and then finally most importantly for every CSO out there is going to be did they stop us and so that's how we we do this and I think you when speaking with um stay Hall before you know we've come up with this um boils but we call it fine fix verifying so what we do is we go in is we act as the attacker right we act in a production environment so we're not going to be we're a passive attacker but we will go in on credentialed on agents but we have to assume to have an assumed breach model which means we're going to put a Docker container in your environment and then we're going to fingerprint the environment so we're going to go out and do an asset survey now that's something that's not something that Splunk does super well you know so can Splunk see all the assets do the same assets marry up we're going to log all that data and think and then put load that into this long Sim or the smoke logging tools just to have it in Enterprise right that's an immediate future ad that they've got um and then we've got the fix so once we've completed our pen test um we are then going to generate a report and we can talk about these in a little bit later but the reports will show an executive summary the assets that we found which would be your asset Discovery aspect of that a fix report and the fixed report I think is probably the most important one it will go down and identify what we did how we did it and then how to fix that and then from that the pen tester or the organization should fix those then they go back and run another test and then they validate like a change detection environment to see hey did those fixes taste play take place and you know snehaw when he was the CTO of jsoc he shared with me a number of times about it's like man there would be 15 more items on next week's punch sheet that we didn't know about and it's and it has to do with how we you know how they were uh prioritizing the cves and whatnot because they would take all CBDs it was critical or non-critical and it's like we are able to create context in that environment that feeds better information into Splunk and whatnot that brings that brings up the efficiency for Splunk specifically the teams out there by the way the burnout thing is real I mean this whole I just finished my list and I got 15 more or whatever the list just can keeps growing how did node zero specifically help Splunk teams be more efficient like that's the question I want to get at because this seems like a very scale way for Splunk customers and teams service teams to be more so the question is how does node zero help make Splunk specifically their service teams be more efficient so so today in our early interactions we're building customers we've seen are five things um and I'll start with sort of identifying the blind spots right so kind of what I just talked about with you did we detect did we log did we alert did they stop node zero right and so I would I put that you know a more Layman's third grade term and if I was going to beat a fifth grader at this game would be we can be the sparring partner for a Splunk Enterprise customer a Splunk Essentials customer someone using Splunk soar or even just an Enterprise Splunk customer that may be a small shop with three people and just wants to know where am I exposed so by creating and generating these reports and then having um the API that actually generates the dashboard they can take all of these events that we've logged and log them in and then where that then comes in is number two is how do we prioritize those logs right so how do we create visibility to logs that that um are have critical impacts and again as I mentioned earlier not all cves are high impact regard and also not all or low right so if you daisy chain a bunch of low cves together boom I've got a mission critical AP uh CPE that needs to be fixed now such as a credential moving to an NT box that's got a text file with a bunch of passwords on it that would be very bad um and then third would be uh verifying that you have all of the hosts so one of the things that splunk's not particularly great at and they'll literate themselves they don't do asset Discovery so dude what assets do we see and what are they logging from that um and then for from um for every event that they are able to identify one of the cool things that we can do is actually create this low code no code environment so they could let you know Splunk customers can use Splunk sword to actually triage events and prioritize that event so where they're being routed within it to optimize the Sox team time to Market or time to triage any given event obviously reducing MTR and then finally I think one of the neatest things that we'll be seeing us develop is um our ability to build glass cables so behind me you'll see one of our triage events and how we build uh a Lockheed Martin kill chain on that with a glass table which is very familiar to the community we're going to have the ability and not too distant future to allow people to search observe on those iocs and if people aren't familiar with it ioc it's an instant of a compromise so that's a vector that we want to drill into and of course who's better at Drilling in the data and smoke yeah this is a critter this is an awesome Synergy there I mean I can see a Splunk customer going man this just gives me so much more capability action actionability and also real understanding and I think this is what I want to dig into if you don't mind understanding that critical impact okay is kind of where I see this coming got the data data ingest now data's data but the question is what not to log you know where are things misconfigured these are critical questions so can you talk about what it means to understand critical impact yeah so I think you know going back to the things that I just spoke about a lot of those cves where you'll see um uh low low low and then you daisy chain together and they're suddenly like oh this is high now but then your other impact of like if you're if you're a Splunk customer you know and I had it I had several of them I had one customer that you know terabytes of McAfee data being brought in and it was like all right there's a lot of other data that you probably also want to bring but they could only afford wanted to do certain data sets because that's and they didn't know how to prioritize or filter those data sets and so we provide that opportunity to say hey these are the critical ones to bring in but there's also the ones that you don't necessarily need to bring in because low cve in this case really does mean low cve like an ILO server would be one that um that's the print server uh where the uh your admin credentials are on on like a printer and so there will be credentials on that that's something that a hacker might go in to look at so although the cve on it is low is if you daisy chain with somebody that's able to get into that you might say Ah that's high and we would then potentially rank it giving our AI logic to say that's a moderate so put it on the scale and we prioritize those versus uh of all of these scanners just going to give you a bunch of CDs and good luck and translating that if I if I can and tell me if I'm wrong that kind of speaks to that whole lateral movement that's it challenge right print serve a great example looks stupid low end who's going to want to deal with the print server oh but it's connected into a critical system there's a path is that kind of what you're getting at yeah I use Daisy Chain I think that's from the community they came from uh but it's just a lateral movement it's exactly what they're doing in those low level low critical lateral movements is where the hackers are getting in right so that's the beauty thing about the uh the Uber example is that who would have thought you know I've got my monthly Factor authentication going in a human made a mistake we can't we can't not expect humans to make mistakes we're fallible right the reality is is once they were in the environment they could have protected themselves by running enough pen tests to know that they had certain uh exposed credentials that would have stopped the breach and they did not had not done that in their environment and I'm not poking yeah but it's an interesting Trend though I mean it's obvious if sometimes those low end items are also not protected well so it's easy to get at from a hacker standpoint but also the people in charge of them can be fished easily or spearfished because they're not paying attention because they don't have to no one ever told them hey be careful yeah for the community that I came from John that's exactly how they they would uh meet you at a uh an International Event um introduce themselves as a graduate student these are National actor States uh would you mind reviewing my thesis on such and such and I was at Adobe at the time that I was working on this instead of having to get the PDF they opened the PDF and whoever that customer was launches and I don't know if you remember back in like 2008 time frame there was a lot of issues around IP being by a nation state being stolen from the United States and that's exactly how they did it and John that's or LinkedIn hey I want to get a joke we want to hire you double the salary oh I'm gonna click on that for sure you know yeah right exactly yeah the one thing I would say to you is like uh when we look at like sort of you know because I think we did 10 000 pen tests last year is it's probably over that now you know we have these sort of top 10 ways that we think and find people coming into the environment the funniest thing is that only one of them is a cve related vulnerability like uh you know you guys know what they are right so it's it but it's it's like two percent of the attacks are occurring through the cves but yeah there's all that attention spent to that and very little attention spent to this pen testing side which is sort of this continuous threat you know monitoring space and and this vulnerability space where I think we play a such an important role and I'm so excited to be a part of the tip of the spear on this one yeah I'm old enough to know the movie sneakers which I loved as a you know watching that movie you know professional hackers are testing testing always testing the environment I love this I got to ask you as we kind of wrap up here Chris if you don't mind the the benefits to Professional Services from this Alliance big news Splunk and you guys work well together we see that clearly what are what other benefits do Professional Services teams see from the Splunk and Horizon 3.ai Alliance so if you're I think for from our our from both of our uh Partners uh as we bring these guys together and many of them already are the same partner right uh is that uh first off the licensing model is probably one of the key areas that we really excel at so if you're an end user you can buy uh for the Enterprise by the number of IP addresses you're using um but uh if you're a partner working with this there's solution ways that you can go in and we'll license as to msps and what that business model on msps looks like but the unique thing that we do here is this C plus license and so the Consulting plus license allows like a uh somebody a small to mid-sized to some very large uh you know Fortune 100 uh consulting firms use this uh by buying into a license called um Consulting plus where they can have unlimited uh access to as many IPS as they want but you can only run one test at a time and as you can imagine when we're going and hacking passwords and um checking hashes and decrypting hashes that can take a while so but for the right customer it's it's a perfect tool and so I I'm so excited about our ability to go to market with uh our partners so that we understand ourselves understand how not to just sell to or not tell just to sell through but we know how to sell with them as a good vendor partner I think that that's one thing that we've done a really good job building bring it into the market yeah I think also the Splunk has had great success how they've enabled uh partners and Professional Services absolutely you know the services that layer on top of Splunk are multi-fold tons of great benefits so you guys Vector right into that ride that way with friction and and the cool thing is that in you know in one of our reports which could be totally customized uh with someone else's logo we're going to generate you know so I I used to work in another organization it wasn't Splunk but we we did uh you know pen testing as for for customers and my pen testers would come on site they'd do the engagement and they would leave and then another release someone would be oh shoot we got another sector that was breached and they'd call you back you know four weeks later and so by August our entire pen testings teams would be sold out and it would be like well even in March maybe and they're like no no I gotta breach now and and and then when they do go in they go through do the pen test and they hand over a PDF and they pack on the back and say there's where your problems are you need to fix it and the reality is that what we're going to generate completely autonomously with no human interaction is we're going to go and find all the permutations of anything we found and the fix for those permutations and then once you've fixed everything you just go back and run another pen test it's you know for what people pay for one pen test they can have a tool that does that every every Pat patch on Tuesday and that's on Wednesday you know triage throughout the week green yellow red I wanted to see the colors show me green green is good right not red and one CIO doesn't want who doesn't want that dashboard right it's it's exactly it and we can help bring I think that you know I'm really excited about helping drive this with the Splunk team because they get that they understand that it's the green yellow red dashboard and and how do we help them find more green uh so that the other guys are in red yeah and get in the data and do the right thing and be efficient with how you use the data know what to look at so many things to pay attention to you know the combination of both and then go to market strategy real brilliant congratulations Chris thanks for coming on and sharing um this news with the detail around the Splunk in action around the alliance thanks for sharing John my pleasure thanks look forward to seeing you soon all right great we'll follow up and do another segment on devops and I.T and security teams as the new new Ops but and super cloud a bunch of other stuff so thanks for coming on and our next segment the CEO of horizon 3.aa will break down all the new news for us here on thecube you're watching thecube the leader in high tech Enterprise coverage [Music] yeah the partner program for us has been fantastic you know I think prior to that you know as most organizations most uh uh most Farmers most mssps might not necessarily have a a bench at all for penetration testing uh maybe they subcontract this work out or maybe they do it themselves but trying to staff that kind of position can be incredibly difficult for us this was a differentiator a a new a new partner a new partnership that allowed us to uh not only perform services for our customers but be able to provide a product by which that they can do it themselves so we work with our customers in a variety of ways some of them want more routine testing and perform this themselves but we're also a certified service provider of horizon 3 being able to perform uh penetration tests uh help review the the data provide color provide analysis for our customers in a broader sense right not necessarily the the black and white elements of you know what was uh what's critical what's high what's medium what's low what you need to fix but are there systemic issues this has allowed us to onboard new customers this has allowed us to migrate some penetration testing services to us from from competitors in the marketplace But ultimately this is occurring because the the product and the outcome are special they're unique and they're effective our customers like what they're seeing they like the routineness of it many of them you know again like doing this themselves you know being able to kind of pen test themselves parts of their networks um and the the new use cases right I'm a large organization I have eight to ten Acquisitions per year wouldn't it be great to have a tool to be able to perform a penetration test both internal and external of that acquisition before we integrate the two companies and maybe bringing on some risk it's a very effective partnership uh one that really is uh kind of taken our our Engineers our account Executives by storm um you know this this is a a partnership that's been very valuable to us [Music] a key part of the value and business model at Horizon 3 is enabling Partners to leverage node zero to make more revenue for themselves our goal is that for sixty percent of our Revenue this year will be originated by partners and that 95 of our Revenue next year will be originated by partners and so a key to that strategy is making us an integral part of your business models as a partner a key quote from one of our partners is that we enable every one of their business units to generate Revenue so let's talk about that in a little bit more detail first is that if you have a pen test Consulting business take Deloitte as an example what was six weeks of human labor at Deloitte per pen test has been cut down to four days of Labor using node zero to conduct reconnaissance find all the juicy interesting areas of the of the Enterprise that are exploitable and being able to go assess the entire organization and then all of those details get served up to the human to be able to look at understand and determine where to probe deeper so what you see in that pen test Consulting business is that node zero becomes a force multiplier where those Consulting teams were able to cover way more accounts and way more IPS within those accounts with the same or fewer consultants and so that directly leads to profit margin expansion for the Penn testing business itself because node 0 is a force multiplier the second business model here is if you're an mssp as an mssp you're already making money providing defensive cyber security operations for a large volume of customers and so what they do is they'll license node zero and use us as an upsell to their mssb business to start to deliver either continuous red teaming continuous verification or purple teaming as a service and so in that particular business model they've got an additional line of Revenue where they can increase the spend of their existing customers by bolting on node 0 as a purple team as a service offering the third business model or customer type is if you're an I.T services provider so as an I.T services provider you make money installing and configuring security products like Splunk or crowdstrike or hemio you also make money reselling those products and you also make money generating follow-on services to continue to harden your customer environments and so for them what what those it service providers will do is use us to verify that they've installed Splunk correctly improved to their customer that Splunk was installed correctly or crowdstrike was installed correctly using our results and then use our results to drive follow-on services and revenue and then finally we've got the value-added reseller which is just a straight up reseller because of how fast our sales Cycles are these vars are able to typically go from cold email to deal close in six to eight weeks at Horizon 3 at least a single sales engineer is able to run 30 to 50 pocs concurrently because our pocs are very lightweight and don't require any on-prem customization or heavy pre-sales post sales activity so as a result we're able to have a few amount of sellers driving a lot of Revenue and volume for us well the same thing applies to bars there isn't a lot of effort to sell the product or prove its value so vars are able to sell a lot more Horizon 3 node zero product without having to build up a huge specialist sales organization so what I'm going to do is talk through uh scenario three here as an I.T service provider and just how powerful node zero can be in driving additional Revenue so in here think of for every one dollar of node zero license purchased by the IT service provider to do their business it'll generate ten dollars of additional revenue for that partner so in this example kidney group uses node 0 to verify that they have installed and deployed Splunk correctly so Kitty group is a Splunk partner they they sell it services to install configure deploy and maintain Splunk and as they deploy Splunk they're going to use node 0 to attack the environment and make sure that the right logs and alerts and monitoring are being handled within the Splunk deployment so it's a way of doing QA or verifying that Splunk has been configured correctly and that's going to be internally used by kidney group to prove the quality of their services that they've just delivered then what they're going to do is they're going to show and leave behind that node zero Report with their client and that creates a resell opportunity for for kidney group to resell node 0 to their client because their client is seeing the reports and the results and saying wow this is pretty amazing and those reports can be co-branded where it's a pen testing report branded with kidney group but it says powered by Horizon three under it from there kidney group is able to take the fixed actions report that's automatically generated with every pen test through node zero and they're able to use that as the starting point for a statement of work to sell follow-on services to fix all of the problems that node zero identified fixing l11r misconfigurations fixing or patching VMware or updating credentials policies and so on so what happens is node 0 has found a bunch of problems the client often lacks the capacity to fix and so kidney group can use that lack of capacity by the client as a follow-on sales opportunity for follow-on services and finally based on the findings from node zero kidney group can look at that report and say to the customer you know customer if you bought crowdstrike you'd be able to uh prevent node Zero from attacking and succeeding in the way that it did for if you bought humano or if you bought Palo Alto networks or if you bought uh some privileged access management solution because of what node 0 was able to do with credential harvesting and attacks and so as a result kidney group is able to resell other security products within their portfolio crowdstrike Falcon humano Polito networks demisto Phantom and so on based on the gaps that were identified by node zero and that pen test and what that creates is another feedback loop where kidney group will then go use node 0 to verify that crowdstrike product has actually been installed and configured correctly and then this becomes the cycle of using node 0 to verify a deployment using that verification to drive a bunch of follow-on services and resell opportunities which then further drives more usage of the product now the way that we licensed is that it's a usage-based license licensing model so that the partner will grow their node zero Consulting plus license as they grow their business so for example if you're a kidney group then week one you've got you're going to use node zero to verify your Splunk install in week two if you have a pen testing business you're going to go off and use node zero to be a force multiplier for your pen testing uh client opportunity and then if you have an mssp business then in week three you're going to use node zero to go execute a purple team mssp offering for your clients so not necessarily a kidney group but if you're a Deloitte or ATT these larger companies and you've got multiple lines of business if you're Optive for instance you all you have to do is buy one Consulting plus license and you're going to be able to run as many pen tests as you want sequentially so now you can buy a single license and use that one license to meet your week one client commitments and then meet your week two and then meet your week three and as you grow your business you start to run multiple pen tests concurrently so in week one you've got to do a Splunk verify uh verify Splunk install and you've got to run a pen test and you've got to do a purple team opportunity you just simply expand the number of Consulting plus licenses from one license to three licenses and so now as you systematically grow your business you're able to grow your node zero capacity with you giving you predictable cogs predictable margins and once again 10x additional Revenue opportunity for that investment in the node zero Consulting plus license my name is Saint I'm the co-founder and CEO here at Horizon 3. I'm going to talk to you today about why it's important to look at your Enterprise Through The Eyes of an attacker the challenge I had when I was a CIO in banking the CTO at Splunk and serving within the Department of Defense is that I had no idea I was Secure until the bad guys had showed up am I logging the right data am I fixing the right vulnerabilities are my security tools that I've paid millions of dollars for actually working together to defend me and the answer is I don't know does my team actually know how to respond to a breach in the middle of an incident I don't know I've got to wait for the bad guys to show up and so the challenge I had was how do we proactively verify our security posture I tried a variety of techniques the first was the use of vulnerability scanners and the challenge with vulnerability scanners is being vulnerable doesn't mean you're exploitable I might have a hundred thousand findings from my scanner of which maybe five or ten can actually be exploited in my environment the other big problem with scanners is that they can't chain weaknesses together from machine to machine so if you've got a thousand machines in your environment or more what a vulnerability scanner will do is tell you you have a problem on machine one and separately a problem on machine two but what they can tell you is that an attacker could use a load from machine one plus a low from machine two to equal to critical in your environment and what attackers do in their tactics is they chain together misconfigurations dangerous product defaults harvested credentials and exploitable vulnerabilities into attack paths across different machines so to address the attack pads across different machines I tried layering in consulting-based pen testing and the issue is when you've got thousands of hosts or hundreds of thousands of hosts in your environment human-based pen testing simply doesn't scale to test an infrastructure of that size moreover when they actually do execute a pen test and you get the report oftentimes you lack the expertise within your team to quickly retest to verify that you've actually fixed the problem and so what happens is you end up with these pen test reports that are incomplete snapshots and quickly going stale and then to mitigate that problem I tried using breach and attack simulation tools and the struggle with these tools is one I had to install credentialed agents everywhere two I had to write my own custom attack scripts that I didn't have much talent for but also I had to maintain as my environment changed and then three these types of tools were not safe to run against production systems which was the the majority of my attack surface so that's why we went off to start Horizon 3. so Tony and I met when we were in Special Operations together and the challenge we wanted to solve was how do we do infrastructure security testing at scale by giving the the power of a 20-year pen testing veteran into the hands of an I.T admin a network engineer in just three clicks and the whole idea is we enable these fixers The Blue Team to be able to run node Zero Hour pen testing product to quickly find problems in their environment that blue team will then then go off and fix the issues that were found and then they can quickly rerun the attack to verify that they fixed the problem and the whole idea is delivering this without requiring custom scripts be developed without requiring credential agents be installed and without requiring the use of external third-party consulting services or Professional Services self-service pen testing to quickly Drive find fix verify there are three primary use cases that our customers use us for the first is the sock manager that uses us to verify that their security tools are actually effective to verify that they're logging the right data in Splunk or in their Sim to verify that their managed security services provider is able to quickly detect and respond to an attack and hold them accountable for their slas or that the sock understands how to quickly detect and respond and measuring and verifying that or that the variety of tools that you have in your stack most organizations have 130 plus cyber security tools none of which are designed to work together are actually working together the second primary use case is proactively hardening and verifying your systems this is when the I that it admin that network engineer they're able to run self-service pen tests to verify that their Cisco environment is installed in hardened and configured correctly or that their credential policies are set up right or that their vcenter or web sphere or kubernetes environments are actually designed to be secure and what this allows the it admins and network Engineers to do is shift from running one or two pen tests a year to 30 40 or more pen tests a month and you can actually wire those pen tests into your devops process or into your detection engineering and the change management processes to automatically trigger pen tests every time there's a change in your environment the third primary use case is for those organizations lucky enough to have their own internal red team they'll use node zero to do reconnaissance and exploitation at scale and then use the output as a starting point for the humans to step in and focus on the really hard juicy stuff that gets them on stage at Defcon and so these are the three primary use cases and what we'll do is zoom into the find fix verify Loop because what I've found in my experience is find fix verify is the future operating model for cyber security organizations and what I mean here is in the find using continuous pen testing what you want to enable is on-demand self-service pen tests you want those pen tests to find attack pads at scale spanning your on-prem infrastructure your Cloud infrastructure and your perimeter because attackers don't only state in one place they will find ways to chain together a perimeter breach a credential from your on-prem to gain access to your cloud or some other permutation and then the third part in continuous pen testing is attackers don't focus on critical vulnerabilities anymore they know we've built vulnerability Management Programs to reduce those vulnerabilities so attackers have adapted and what they do is chain together misconfigurations in your infrastructure and software and applications with dangerous product defaults with exploitable vulnerabilities and through the collection of credentials through a mix of techniques at scale once you've found those problems the next question is what do you do about it well you want to be able to prioritize fixing problems that are actually exploitable in your environment that truly matter meaning they're going to lead to domain compromise or domain user compromise or access your sensitive data the second thing you want to fix is making sure you understand what risk your crown jewels data is exposed to where is your crown jewels data is in the cloud is it on-prem has it been copied to a share drive that you weren't aware of if a domain user was compromised could they access that crown jewels data you want to be able to use the attacker's perspective to secure the critical data you have in your infrastructure and then finally as you fix these problems you want to quickly remediate and retest that you've actually fixed the issue and this fine fix verify cycle becomes that accelerator that drives purple team culture the third part here is verify and what you want to be able to do in the verify step is verify that your security tools and processes in people can effectively detect and respond to a breach you want to be able to integrate that into your detection engineering processes so that you know you're catching the right security rules or that you've deployed the right configurations you also want to make sure that your environment is adhering to the best practices around systems hardening in cyber resilience and finally you want to be able to prove your security posture over a time to your board to your leadership into your regulators so what I'll do now is zoom into each of these three steps so when we zoom in to find here's the first example using node 0 and autonomous pen testing and what an attacker will do is find a way to break through the perimeter in this example it's very easy to misconfigure kubernetes to allow an attacker to gain remote code execution into your on-prem kubernetes environment and break through the perimeter and from there what the attacker is going to do is conduct Network reconnaissance and then find ways to gain code execution on other machines in the environment and as they get code execution they start to dump credentials collect a bunch of ntlm hashes crack those hashes using open source and dark web available data as part of those attacks and then reuse those credentials to log in and laterally maneuver throughout the environment and then as they loudly maneuver they can reuse those credentials and use credential spraying techniques and so on to compromise your business email to log in as admin into your cloud and this is a very common attack and rarely is a CV actually needed to execute this attack often it's just a misconfiguration in kubernetes with a bad credential policy or password policy combined with bad practices of credential reuse across the organization here's another example of an internal pen test and this is from an actual customer they had 5 000 hosts within their environment they had EDR and uba tools installed and they initiated in an internal pen test on a single machine from that single initial access point node zero enumerated the network conducted reconnaissance and found five thousand hosts were accessible what node 0 will do under the covers is organize all of that reconnaissance data into a knowledge graph that we call the Cyber terrain map and that cyber Terrain map becomes the key data structure that we use to efficiently maneuver and attack and compromise your environment so what node zero will do is they'll try to find ways to get code execution reuse credentials and so on in this customer example they had Fortinet installed as their EDR but node 0 was still able to get code execution on a Windows machine from there it was able to successfully dump credentials including sensitive credentials from the lsas process on the Windows box and then reuse those credentials to log in as domain admin in the network and once an attacker becomes domain admin they have the keys to the kingdom they can do anything they want so what happened here well it turns out Fortinet was misconfigured on three out of 5000 machines bad automation the customer had no idea this had happened they would have had to wait for an attacker to show up to realize that it was misconfigured the second thing is well why didn't Fortinet stop the credential pivot in the lateral movement and it turned out the customer didn't buy the right modules or turn on the right services within that particular product and we see this not only with Ford in it but we see this with Trend Micro and all the other defensive tools where it's very easy to miss a checkbox in the configuration that will do things like prevent credential dumping the next story I'll tell you is attackers don't have to hack in they log in so another infrastructure pen test a typical technique attackers will take is man in the middle uh attacks that will collect hashes so in this case what an attacker will do is leverage a tool or technique called responder to collect ntlm hashes that are being passed around the network and there's a variety of reasons why these hashes are passed around and it's a pretty common misconfiguration but as an attacker collects those hashes then they start to apply techniques to crack those hashes so they'll pass the hash and from there they will use open source intelligence common password structures and patterns and other types of techniques to try to crack those hashes into clear text passwords so here node 0 automatically collected hashes it automatically passed the hashes to crack those credentials and then from there it starts to take the domain user user ID passwords that it's collected and tries to access different services and systems in your Enterprise in this case node 0 is able to successfully gain access to the Office 365 email environment because three employees didn't have MFA configured so now what happens is node 0 has a placement and access in the business email system which sets up the conditions for fraud lateral phishing and other techniques but what's especially insightful here is that 80 of the hashes that were collected in this pen test were cracked in 15 minutes or less 80 percent 26 of the user accounts had a password that followed a pretty obvious pattern first initial last initial and four random digits the other thing that was interesting is 10 percent of service accounts had their user ID the same as their password so VMware admin VMware admin web sphere admin web Square admin so on and so forth and so attackers don't have to hack in they just log in with credentials that they've collected the next story here is becoming WS AWS admin so in this example once again internal pen test node zero gets initial access it discovers 2 000 hosts are network reachable from that environment if fingerprints and organizes all of that data into a cyber Terrain map from there it it fingerprints that hpilo the integrated lights out service was running on a subset of hosts hpilo is a service that is often not instrumented or observed by security teams nor is it easy to patch as a result attackers know this and immediately go after those types of services so in this case that ILO service was exploitable and were able to get code execution on it ILO stores all the user IDs and passwords in clear text in a particular set of processes so once we gain code execution we were able to dump all of the credentials and then from there laterally maneuver to log in to the windows box next door as admin and then on that admin box we're able to gain access to the share drives and we found a credentials file saved on a share Drive from there it turned out that credentials file was the AWS admin credentials file giving us full admin authority to their AWS accounts not a single security alert was triggered in this attack because the customer wasn't observing the ILO service and every step thereafter was a valid login in the environment and so what do you do step one patch the server step two delete the credentials file from the share drive and then step three is get better instrumentation on privileged access users and login the final story I'll tell is a typical pattern that we see across the board with that combines the various techniques I've described together where an attacker is going to go off and use open source intelligence to find all of the employees that work at your company from there they're going to look up those employees on dark web breach databases and other forms of information and then use that as a starting point to password spray to compromise a domain user all it takes is one employee to reuse a breached password for their Corporate email or all it takes is a single employee to have a weak password that's easily guessable all it takes is one and once the attacker is able to gain domain user access in most shops domain user is also the local admin on their laptop and once your local admin you can dump Sam and get local admin until M hashes you can use that to reuse credentials again local admin on neighboring machines and attackers will start to rinse and repeat then eventually they're able to get to a point where they can dump lsas or by unhooking the anti-virus defeating the EDR or finding a misconfigured EDR as we've talked about earlier to compromise the domain and what's consistent is that the fundamentals are broken at these shops they have poor password policies they don't have least access privilege implemented active directory groups are too permissive where domain admin or domain user is also the local admin uh AV or EDR Solutions are misconfigured or easily unhooked and so on and what we found in 10 000 pen tests is that user Behavior analytics tools never caught us in that lateral movement in part because those tools require pristine logging data in order to work and also it becomes very difficult to find that Baseline of normal usage versus abnormal usage of credential login another interesting Insight is there were several Marquee brand name mssps that were defending our customers environment and for them it took seven hours to detect and respond to the pen test seven hours the pen test was over in less than two hours and so what you had was an egregious violation of the service level agreements that that mssp had in place and the customer was able to use us to get service credit and drive accountability of their sock and of their provider the third interesting thing is in one case it took us seven minutes to become domain admin in a bank that bank had every Gucci security tool you could buy yet in 7 minutes and 19 seconds node zero started as an unauthenticated member of the network and was able to escalate privileges through chaining and misconfigurations in lateral movement and so on to become domain admin if it's seven minutes today we should assume it'll be less than a minute a year or two from now making it very difficult for humans to be able to detect and respond to that type of Blitzkrieg attack so that's in the find it's not just about finding problems though the bulk of the effort should be what to do about it the fix and the verify so as you find those problems back to kubernetes as an example we will show you the path here is the kill chain we took to compromise that environment we'll show you the impact here is the impact or here's the the proof of exploitation that we were able to use to be able to compromise it and there's the actual command that we executed so you could copy and paste that command and compromise that cubelet yourself if you want and then the impact is we got code execution and we'll actually show you here is the impact this is a critical here's why it enabled perimeter breach affected applications will tell you the specific IPS where you've got the problem how it maps to the miter attack framework and then we'll tell you exactly how to fix it we'll also show you what this problem enabled so you can accurately prioritize why this is important or why it's not important the next part is accurate prioritization the hardest part of my job as a CIO was deciding what not to fix so if you take SMB signing not required as an example by default that CVSs score is a one out of 10. but this misconfiguration is not a cve it's a misconfig enable an attacker to gain access to 19 credentials including one domain admin two local admins and access to a ton of data because of that context this is really a 10 out of 10. you better fix this as soon as possible however of the seven occurrences that we found it's only a critical in three out of the seven and these are the three specific machines and we'll tell you the exact way to fix it and you better fix these as soon as possible for these four machines over here these didn't allow us to do anything of consequence so that because the hardest part is deciding what not to fix you can justifiably choose not to fix these four issues right now and just add them to your backlog and surge your team to fix these three as quickly as possible and then once you fix these three you don't have to re-run the entire pen test you can select these three and then one click verify and run a very narrowly scoped pen test that is only testing this specific issue and what that creates is a much faster cycle of finding and fixing problems the other part of fixing is verifying that you don't have sensitive data at risk so once we become a domain user we're able to use those domain user credentials and try to gain access to databases file shares S3 buckets git repos and so on and help you understand what sensitive data you have at risk so in this example a green checkbox means we logged in as a valid domain user we're able to get read write access on the database this is how many records we could have accessed and we don't actually look at the values in the database but we'll show you the schema so you can quickly characterize that pii data was at risk here and we'll do that for your file shares and other sources of data so now you can accurately articulate the data you have at risk and prioritize cleaning that data up especially data that will lead to a fine or a big news issue so that's the find that's the fix now we're going to talk about the verify the key part in verify is embracing and integrating with detection engineering practices so when you think about your layers of security tools you've got lots of tools in place on average 130 tools at any given customer but these tools were not designed to work together so when you run a pen test what you want to do is say did you detect us did you log us did you alert on us did you stop us and from there what you want to see is okay what are the techniques that are commonly used to defeat an environment to actually compromise if you look at the top 10 techniques we use and there's far more than just these 10 but these are the most often executed nine out of ten have nothing to do with cves it has to do with misconfigurations dangerous product defaults bad credential policies and it's how we chain those together to become a domain admin or compromise a host so what what customers will do is every single attacker command we executed is provided to you as an attackivity log so you can actually see every single attacker command we ran the time stamp it was executed the hosts it executed on and how it Maps the minor attack tactics so our customers will have are these attacker logs on one screen and then they'll go look into Splunk or exabeam or Sentinel one or crowdstrike and say did you detect us did you log us did you alert on us or not and to make that even easier if you take this example hey Splunk what logs did you see at this time on the VMware host because that's when node 0 is able to dump credentials and that allows you to identify and fix your logging blind spots to make that easier we've got app integration so this is an actual Splunk app in the Splunk App Store and what you can come is inside the Splunk console itself you can fire up the Horizon 3 node 0 app all of the pen test results are here so that you can see all of the results in one place and you don't have to jump out of the tool and what you'll show you as I skip forward is hey there's a pen test here are the critical issues that we've identified for that weaker default issue here are the exact commands we executed and then we will automatically query into Splunk all all terms on between these times on that endpoint that relate to this attack so you can now quickly within the Splunk environment itself figure out that you're missing logs or that you're appropriately catching this issue and that becomes incredibly important in that detection engineering cycle that I mentioned earlier so how do our customers end up using us they shift from running one pen test a year to 30 40 pen tests a month oftentimes wiring us into their deployment automation to automatically run pen tests the other part that they'll do is as they run more pen tests they find more issues but eventually they hit this inflection point where they're able to rapidly clean up their environment and that inflection point is because the red and the blue teams start working together in a purple team culture and now they're working together to proactively harden their environment the other thing our customers will do is run us from different perspectives they'll first start running an RFC 1918 scope to see once the attacker gained initial access in a part of the network that had wide access what could they do and then from there they'll run us within a specific Network segment okay from within that segment could the attacker break out and gain access to another segment then they'll run us from their work from home environment could they Traverse the VPN and do something damaging and once they're in could they Traverse the VPN and get into my cloud then they'll break in from the outside all of these perspectives are available to you in Horizon 3 and node zero as a single SKU and you can run as many pen tests as you want if you run a phishing campaign and find that an intern in the finance department had the worst phishing behavior you can then inject their credentials and actually show the end-to-end story of how an attacker fished gained credentials of an intern and use that to gain access to sensitive financial data so what our customers end up doing is running multiple attacks from multiple perspectives and looking at those results over time I'll leave you two things one is what is the AI in Horizon 3 AI those knowledge graphs are the heart and soul of everything that we do and we use machine learning reinforcement techniques reinforcement learning techniques Markov decision models and so on to be able to efficiently maneuver and analyze the paths in those really large graphs we also use context-based scoring to prioritize weaknesses and we're also able to drive collective intelligence across all of the operations so the more pen tests we run the smarter we get and all of that is based on our knowledge graph analytics infrastructure that we have finally I'll leave you with this was my decision criteria when I was a buyer for my security testing strategy what I cared about was coverage I wanted to be able to assess my on-prem cloud perimeter and work from home and be safe to run in production I want to be able to do that as often as I wanted I want to be able to run pen tests in hours or days not weeks or months so I could accelerate that fine fix verify loop I wanted my it admins and network Engineers with limited offensive experience to be able to run a pen test in a few clicks through a self-service experience and not have to install agent and not have to write custom scripts and finally I didn't want to get nickeled and dimed on having to buy different types of attack modules or different types of attacks I wanted a single annual subscription that allowed me to run any type of attack as often as I wanted so I could look at my Trends in directions over time so I hope you found this talk valuable uh we're easy to find and I look forward to seeing seeing you use a product and letting our results do the talking when you look at uh you know kind of the way no our pen testing algorithms work is we dynamically select uh how to compromise an environment based on what we've discovered and the goal is to become a domain admin compromise a host compromise domain users find ways to encrypt data steal sensitive data and so on but when you look at the the top 10 techniques that we ended up uh using to compromise environments the first nine have nothing to do with cves and that's the reality cves are yes a vector but less than two percent of cves are actually used in a compromise oftentimes it's some sort of credential collection credential cracking uh credential pivoting and using that to become an admin and then uh compromising environments from that point on so I'll leave this up for you to kind of read through and you'll have the slides available for you but I found it very insightful that organizations and ourselves when I was a GE included invested heavily in just standard vulnerability Management Programs when I was at DOD that's all disa cared about asking us about was our our kind of our cve posture but the attackers have adapted to not rely on cves to get in because they know that organizations are actively looking at and patching those cves and instead they're chaining together credentials from one place with misconfigurations and dangerous product defaults in another to take over an environment a concrete example is by default vcenter backups are not encrypted and so as if an attacker finds vcenter what they'll do is find the backup location and there are specific V sender MTD files where the admin credentials are parsippled in the binaries so you can actually as an attacker find the right MTD file parse out the binary and now you've got the admin credentials for the vcenter environment and now start to log in as admin there's a bad habit by signal officers and Signal practitioners in the in the Army and elsewhere where the the VM notes section of a virtual image has the password for the VM well those VM notes are not stored encrypted and attackers know this and they're able to go off and find the VMS that are unencrypted find the note section and pull out the passwords for those images and then reuse those credentials across the board so I'll pause here and uh you know Patrick love you get some some commentary on on these techniques and other things that you've seen and what we'll do in the last say 10 to 15 minutes is uh is rolled through a little bit more on what do you do about it yeah yeah no I love it I think um I think this is pretty exhaustive what I like about what you've done here is uh you know we've seen we've seen double-digit increases in the number of organizations that are reporting actual breaches year over year for the last um for the last three years and it's often we kind of in the Zeitgeist we pegged that on ransomware which of course is like incredibly important and very top of mind um but what I like about what you have here is you know we're reminding the audience that the the attack surface area the vectors the matter um you know has to be more comprehensive than just thinking about ransomware scenarios yeah right on um so let's build on this when you think about your defense in depth you've got multiple security controls that you've purchased and integrated and you've got that redundancy if a control fails but the reality is that these security tools aren't designed to work together so when you run a pen test what you want to ask yourself is did you detect node zero did you log node zero did you alert on node zero and did you stop node zero and when you think about how to do that every single attacker command executed by node zero is available in an attacker log so you can now see you know at the bottom here vcenter um exploit at that time on that IP how it aligns to minor attack what you want to be able to do is go figure out did your security tools catch this or not and that becomes very important in using the attacker's perspective to improve your defensive security controls and so the way we've tried to make this easier back to like my my my the you know I bleed Green in many ways still from my smoke background is you want to be able to and what our customers do is hey we'll look at the attacker logs on one screen and they'll look at what did Splunk see or Miss in another screen and then they'll use that to figure out what their logging blind spots are and what that where that becomes really interesting is we've actually built out an integration into Splunk where there's a Splunk app you can download off of Splunk base and you'll get all of the pen test results right there in the Splunk console and from that Splunk console you're gonna be able to see these are all the pen tests that were run these are the issues that were found um so you can look at that particular pen test here are all of the weaknesses that were identified for that particular pen test and how they categorize out for each of those weaknesses you can click on any one of them that are critical in this case and then we'll tell you for that weakness and this is where where the the punch line comes in so I'll pause the video here for that weakness these are the commands that were executed on these endpoints at this time and then we'll actually query Splunk for that um for that IP address or containing that IP and these are the source types that surface any sort of activity so what we try to do is help you as quickly and efficiently as possible identify the logging blind spots in your Splunk environment based on the attacker's perspective so as this video kind of plays through you can see it Patrick I'd love to get your thoughts um just seeing so many Splunk deployments and the effectiveness of those deployments and and how this is going to help really Elevate the effectiveness of all of your Splunk customers yeah I'm super excited about this I mean I think this these kinds of purpose-built integration snail really move the needle for our customers I mean at the end of the day when I think about the power of Splunk I think about a product I was first introduced to 12 years ago that was an on-prem piece of software you know and at the time it sold on sort of Perpetual and term licenses but one made it special was that it could it could it could eat data at a speed that nothing else that I'd have ever seen you can ingest massively scalable amounts of data uh did cool things like schema on read which facilitated that there was this language called SPL that you could nerd out about uh and you went to a conference once a year and you talked about all the cool things you were splunking right but now as we think about the next phase of our growth um we live in a heterogeneous environment where our customers have so many different tools and data sources that are ever expanding and as you look at the as you look at the role of the ciso it's mind-blowing to me the amount of sources Services apps that are coming into the ciso span of let's just call it a span of influence in the last three years uh you know we're seeing things like infrastructure service level visibility application performance monitoring stuff that just never made sense for the security team to have visibility into you um at least not at the size and scale which we're demanding today um and and that's different and this isn't this is why it's so important that we have these joint purpose-built Integrations that um really provide more prescription to our customers about how do they walk on that Journey towards maturity what does zero to one look like what does one to two look like whereas you know 10 years ago customers were happy with platforms today they want integration they want Solutions and they want to drive outcomes and I think this is a great example of how together we are stepping to the evolving nature of the market and also the ever-evolving nature of the threat landscape and what I would say is the maturing needs of the customer in that environment yeah for sure I think especially if if we all anticipate budget pressure over the next 18 months due to the economy and elsewhere while the security budgets are not going to ever I don't think they're going to get cut they're not going to grow as fast and there's a lot more pressure on organizations to extract more value from their existing Investments as well as extracting more value and more impact from their existing teams and so security Effectiveness Fierce prioritization and automation I think become the three key themes of security uh over the next 18 months so I'll do very quickly is run through a few other use cases um every host that we identified in the pen test were able to score and say this host allowed us to do something significant therefore it's it's really critical you should be increasing your logging here hey these hosts down here we couldn't really do anything as an attacker so if you do have to make trade-offs you can make some trade-offs of your logging resolution at the lower end in order to increase logging resolution on the upper end so you've got that level of of um justification for where to increase or or adjust your logging resolution another example is every host we've discovered as an attacker we Expose and you can export and we want to make sure is every host we found as an attacker is being ingested from a Splunk standpoint a big issue I had as a CIO and user of Splunk and other tools is I had no idea if there were Rogue Raspberry Pi's on the network or if a new box was installed and whether Splunk was installed on it or not so now you can quickly start to correlate what hosts did we see and how does that reconcile with what you're logging from uh finally or second to last use case here on the Splunk integration side is for every single problem we've found we give multiple options for how to fix it this becomes a great way to prioritize what fixed actions to automate in your soar platform and what we want to get to eventually is being able to automatically trigger soar actions to fix well-known problems like automatically invalidating passwords for for poor poor passwords in our credentials amongst a whole bunch of other things we could go off and do and then finally if there is a well-known kill chain or attack path one of the things I really wish I could have done when I was a Splunk customer was take this type of kill chain that actually shows a path to domain admin that I'm sincerely worried about and use it as a glass table over which I could start to layer possible indicators of compromise and now you've got a great starting point for glass tables and iocs for actual kill chains that we know are exploitable in your environment and that becomes some super cool Integrations that we've got on the roadmap between us and the Splunk security side of the house so what I'll leave with actually Patrick before I do that you know um love to get your comments and then I'll I'll kind of leave with one last slide on this wartime security mindset uh pending you know assuming there's no other questions no I love it I mean I think this kind of um it's kind of glass table's approach to how do you how do you sort of visualize these workflows and then use things like sore and orchestration and automation to operationalize them is exactly where we see all of our customers going and getting away from I think an over engineered approach to soar with where it has to be super technical heavy with you know python programmers and getting more to this visual view of workflow creation um that really demystifies the power of Automation and also democratizes it so you don't have to have these programming languages in your resume in order to start really moving the needle on workflow creation policy enforcement and ultimately driving automation coverage across more and more of the workflows that your team is seeing yeah I think that between us being able to visualize the actual kill chain or attack path with you know think of a of uh the soar Market I think going towards this no code low code um you know configurable sore versus coded sore that's going to really be a game changer in improve or giving security teams a force multiplier so what I'll leave you with is this peacetime mindset of security no longer is sustainable we really have to get out of checking the box and then waiting for the bad guys to show up to verify that security tools are are working or not and the reason why we've got to really do that quickly is there are over a thousand companies that withdrew from the Russian economy over the past uh nine months due to the Ukrainian War there you should expect every one of them to be punished by the Russians for leaving and punished from a cyber standpoint and this is no longer about financial extortion that is ransomware this is about punishing and destroying companies and you can punish any one of these companies by going after them directly or by going after their suppliers and their Distributors so suddenly your attack surface is no more no longer just your own Enterprise it's how you bring your goods to Market and it's how you get your goods created because while I may not be able to disrupt your ability to harvest fruit if I can get those trucks stuck at the border I can increase spoilage and have the same effect and what we should expect to see is this idea of cyber-enabled economic Warfare where if we issue a sanction like Banning the Russians from traveling there is a cyber-enabled counter punch which is corrupt and destroy the American Airlines database that is below the threshold of War that's not going to trigger the 82nd Airborne to be mobilized but it's going to achieve the right effect ban the sale of luxury goods disrupt the supply chain and create shortages banned Russian oil and gas attack refineries to call a 10x spike in gas prices three days before the election this is the future and therefore I think what we have to do is shift towards a wartime mindset which is don't trust your security posture verify it see yourself Through The Eyes of the attacker build that incident response muscle memory and drive better collaboration between the red and the blue teams your suppliers and Distributors and your information uh sharing organization they have in place and what's really valuable for me as a Splunk customer was when a router crashes at that moment you don't know if it's due to an I.T Administration problem or an attacker and what you want to have are different people asking different questions of the same data and you want to have that integrated triage process of an I.T lens to that problem a security lens to that problem and then from there figuring out is is this an IT workflow to execute or a security incident to execute and you want to have all of that as an integrated team integrated process integrated technology stack and this is something that I very care I cared very deeply about as both a Splunk customer and a Splunk CTO that I see time and time again across the board so Patrick I'll leave you with the last word the final three minutes here and I don't see any open questions so please take us home oh man see how you think we spent hours and hours prepping for this together that that last uh uh 40 seconds of your talk track is probably one of the things I'm most passionate about in this industry right now uh and I think nist has done some really interesting work here around building cyber resilient organizations that have that has really I think helped help the industry see that um incidents can come from adverse conditions you know stress is uh uh performance taxations in the infrastructure service or app layer and they can come from malicious compromises uh Insider threats external threat actors and the more that we look at this from the perspective of of a broader cyber resilience Mission uh in a wartime mindset uh I I think we're going to be much better off and and will you talk about with operationally minded ice hacks information sharing intelligence sharing becomes so important in these wartime uh um situations and you know we know not all ice acts are created equal but we're also seeing a lot of um more ad hoc information sharing groups popping up so look I think I think you framed it really really well I love the concept of wartime mindset and um I I like the idea of applying a cyber resilience lens like if you have one more layer on top of that bottom right cake you know I think the it lens and the security lens they roll up to this concept of cyber resilience and I think this has done some great work there for us yeah you're you're spot on and that that is app and that's gonna I think be the the next um terrain that that uh that you're gonna see vendors try to get after but that I think Splunk is best position to win okay that's a wrap for this special Cube presentation you heard all about the global expansion of horizon 3.ai's partner program for their Partners have a unique opportunity to take advantage of their node zero product uh International go to Market expansion North America channel Partnerships and just overall relationships with companies like Splunk to make things more comprehensive in this disruptive cyber security world we live in and hope you enjoyed this program all the videos are available on thecube.net as well as check out Horizon 3 dot AI for their pen test Automation and ultimately their defense system that they use for testing always the environment that you're in great Innovative product and I hope you enjoyed the program again I'm John Furrier host of the cube thanks for watching