>>Emily Freeman is here. She's ready to come in and we're going to preview her uh, lightning talk Emily. Um thanks for coming on, we really appreciate you coming on really. This is about to talk around devops next gen and I think lisa this is one of those things we've been, we've been discussing with all the companies. >>It's a new kind >>of thinking, it's a revolution. It's a systems mindset. You're starting to see the connections there she is Emily. Thanks for coming. I appreciate it. >>Thank you for having me. >>So your teaser video was amazing. Um, you know, that little secret radical idea, something completely different. Um, you gotta talk coming up, what's the premise behind this revolution? You know, tying together architecture, development, automation, deployment operating altogether? >>Yes, well, we have traditionally always used the sclc, which is the software delivery life cycle. Um, and it is a straight linear process that has actually been around since the sixties, which is wild to me. Um, and really originated in manufacturing. Um, and as much as I love, you know, the Toyota production system and how much it has shown up in devops as a sort of inspiration on how to run things better. We are not making cars, we are making software and I think we have to use different approaches and create a sort of model that better reflects our modern software development process. >>It's a bold idea and looking forward to the talk and, and as motivation, I went into my basement and dusted off all my books from college in the 80s and the sea estimates it was waterfall. It was software development lifecycle. They trained us to think this way and it came from the mainframe people. It was like, it's old school, like really, really old and it really hasn't been updated. Where's the motivation? I actually cloud is kind of converging everything together. We see that, but you kind of hit on this persona thing. Where did that come from this persona? Because you know, people want to put people in buckets release engineer. I mean where's that motivation coming from? >>Yes, you're absolutely right that it came from the mainframes. I think, you know, waterfall is necessary when you're using a punch card or mag tape to load things onto a mainframe, but we don't exist in that world anymore. Thank goodness. And um, yes, so we use personas all the time in tech even to register, well not actually to register for this event, but a lot events. A lot of events you have to click that drop down right. Are you a developer or your manager whatever? And the thing is, personas are immutable in my opinion. I was a developer. I will always identify as a developer despite playing a lot of different roles and doing a lot of different jobs. Uh, and this can vary throughout the day. Right. You might have someone who has a title of software architect who ends up helping someone pair program or develop or test or deploy. Um, and so we wear a lot of hats day to day and I think our discussions around roles would be a better um certainly a better approach than personas, >>you know, lisa and I've been discussing with many of these companies around the roles and we're hearing from them directly and they're finding out that people have their mixing and matching on teams. So you're, you're an SRE on one team and you're doing something on another team where the workflows and the workloads define the team formation. So this is a cultural discussion. It >>absolutely is, yes, I think it is a cultural discussion and it really comes to the heart of desktops, right? It's people process and then tools, deVOps has always been about culture and making sure that developers have all the tools they need to be productive and honestly happy. What good is all of this? If developing software isn't a joyful experience? >>Well, I got to ask you, I got you here obviously with server list and functions just starting to see this kind of this next gen and we're going to hear from jerry Chen, who's a Greylock VC who's going to talk about castles in the clouds where he's discussing the moats that could be created with a competitive advantage and cloud scale and I think he points to the snowflakes of the world. You're starting to see this new thing happening. This is devops 2.0 this is the revolution is this kind of where you see the same vision of your talk? >>Yes, so DeVOPS created 2000 and 8, 2000 and nine, totally different ecosystem in the world we were living in, you know, we didn't have things like surveillance and containers, we didn't have this sort of default distributed nature, certainly not the cloud. Uh and so I'm very excited for jerry's talk. I'm curious to hear more about these moz, I think it's fascinating. Um but yeah, you're seeing different companies, you use different tools and processes to accelerate their delivery and that is the competitive advantage. How can we figure out how to utilize these tools in the most efficient way possible? >>Thank you for coming. And giving us a preview. Let's now go to your lightning keynote talk fresh content premiere of this revolution in DeVOps and we Freeman's talking, we'll go there now.

>>Hi, I'm Emily Freeman, I'm the author of devops for dummies and the curator of 97 things every cloud engineer should know. I am thrilled to be here with you all today. >>I'm really excited to share with you a kind of a wild idea. A complete re imagining >>of the S DLC >>and I want to be clear, I need your feedback. I want to >>know what you think of this. You can always find me >>on twitter at editing. Emily, >>most of my work centers around devops and I really >>can't overstate what an impact >>the concept of devoPS has had on this industry >>in many ways it built on the foundation of agile to become a default a standard we all reach for in our everyday work. >>When devops surfaced as an idea in 2000 >>and eight, the tech industry was in a vastly different space. >>AWS was an infancy >>offering. Only a handful >>of services, >>Azure and G C P didn't exist yet. The majority's majority of companies maintained their own infrastructure. >>Developers wrote code and relied on sys admins to deploy new code at scheduled intervals. Sometimes months apart, container technology hadn't been invented. >>Applications adhered >>to a monolithic architecture, databases were almost exclusively relational >>and serverless wasn't even a concept. Everything from the application to the engineers >>was centralized. >>Our current ecosystem couldn't >>be more different. Software is still hard. Don't get me wrong, >>but we continue to find novel solutions to consistently difficult, persistent problems. >>Now, some of these end up being a sort of rebranding of old ideas >>but others are a unique and clever take to abstracting complexity >>or >>automating toil or >>perhaps most important, >>rethinking challenging the very >>premises we have accepted as Cannon for years, if not decades. >>In the years since deVOps attempted to answer the critical conflict between developers and operations engineers. Devops has become a catch all term >>and there have been a number of >>derivative works. DeVos has come to mean 5000 different things to 5000 different people. For some, it can be distilled >>to continuous integration and continuous delivery or C I C D. For others, it's >>simply deploying code more frequently, perhaps adding a smattering of tests >>for others. Still its organizational, they've added a platform team, perhaps even a >>questionably named DevoPS team or have created an engineering structure that focuses on a separation of concerns, leaving feature teams to manage the development, >>deployment, security and maintenance of their siloed services. Whatever >>the interpretation, what's important is that there isn't a universally accepted >>standard, well what deVOPS is or what it looks like an execution, it's a philosophy more than anything else. >>A framework people can utilize to configure >>and customize >>their specific circumstances >>to modern development practices. The characteristic of DEVOPS that I think we can all >>agree on though, is that an attempted to capture the challenges of the entire >>software development process. It's that broad >>umbrella, that holistic view that I think we need to breathe life into again, The challenge we face >>is that devops isn't >>increasingly outmoded solution to a >>previous problem developers now face >>cultural and technical challenge is far greater than how to more quickly deploy a monolithic application >>cloud native is the future. The next collection of default development decisions >>and one the deVOps story can't absorb in its current form. >>I believe the era of devops is waning and in this moment as the sun sets on >>deVOps, we have a unique opportunity to rethink >>rebuild free platform. Even now, I don't have a crystal ball that would be >>very handy. >>I'm not completely certain with the next decade of tech looks like >>and I can't write this story alone. I need you >>but I have some ideas >>that can get the conversation >>started, I believe to >>build on what was we have to throw away assumptions >>that we've taken for granted all this time in order to move forward. We must first step back. Mhm. The software or systems development life cycle, what we call the S DLC >>has been in use since the 1960s and it's remained more or less the same since before >>color television >>and the touch tone phone >>Over the last 60 or so odd years we've made tweaks, slight adjustments, massaged it. The stages or steps are always a little different >>with agile and devops we sort of looped it into a circle >>and then an infinity loop. >>We've added pretty colors. But the sclc >>is more or less >>the same and it has become an assumption. We don't even think about it anymore, >>universally adopted constructs like the sclc have an unspoken >>permanence. They feel as if they have always been and always will be. I think the impact of that is even more potent. If you were born after a >>construct was popularized, nearly everything around us is a construct. A model, an artifact of >>a human idea. >>The chair you're sitting in the >>desk, you work at the mug from which you drink coffee or sometimes wine, >>buildings, toilets, >>plumbing, roads, cars, art, computers, everything. The splc is a remnant an artifact of a previous era and I think we should throw it away >>or perhaps more accurately replace >>it, replace it with something that better reflects the actual nature of our work. A linear, single threaded model designed for the manufacturer of material goods cannot possibly capture the distributed >>complexity of modern socio technical systems. >>It just can't. Mhm. >>And these two ideas aren't mutually exclusive that >>the sclc was industry changing, valuable and extraordinarily impactful and that it's time for something new. I believe we are strong enough to hold these two ideas at the same time showing respect for the past while envisioning the future. >>No, I don't know about you. I've never had a software project goes smoothly in one >>go, no matter how small, even if I'm the only person working on it and committing directly to master >>Software development >>is chaos. It's a study and entropy and it is not getting any more simple. The model with which we think and talk about software development must capture the multithreaded, non sequential nature of our work. It should embody the roles engineers take on and the considerations they make along the way. It should build on the foundations >>of agile >>and devops and represent the iterative nature of continuous innovation. >>Now when I was thinking about this I was inspired by ideas like extreme programming and the spiral model. Yeah >>I wanted something that would have layers, >>threads, even a way >>of visually representing multiple processes happening in parallel. >>And what I settled on is the revolution model. >>I believe the visualization of revolution is capable of capturing the pivotal moments of any software scenario >>and I'm going to dive into all the discrete elements but I want to give you a moment to have a first impression to absorb >>my idea. >>I call it revolution because well for one it revolves, >>it's circular shape reflects the continuous and iterative nature of our work. >>But also because it is >>revolutionary. I am challenging a 60 year old model that is embedded into our daily language. I don't expect Gartner to build a magic quadrant around this tomorrow but that would be super cool and you should call me my mission with this is to challenge the status quo. To create a model that I think more accurately reflects the complexity of modern cloud. Native >>software development. The revolution model is constructed of five concentric circles describing the critical roles of software development architect. Ng development, >>automating, >>deploying and operating >>intersecting each loop are six >>spokes >>that describe the production considerations every engineer has to consider throughout any engineering work and that's test, >>ability, secure ability, reliability, observe ability, flexibility and scalability. The considerations listed >>are not all >>encompassing. There are of course things not explicitly included. I figured if I put 20 spokes, some of us, including myself, might feel a little overwhelmed. So let's dive into each element in this model, >>we have long used personas as the default way to do divide >>audiences and tailor messages to group people. >>Every company in the world right now is repeating the mantra of developers, developers, developers, but personas have >>always bugged me a bit >>because this approach typically >>either oversimplifies someone's career >>are needlessly complicated. Few people fit cleanly and completely >>into persona based buckets like developers and >>operations anymore. The lines have gotten fuzzy on the other hand, I don't think we need to specifically tailor >>messages >>as to call out the difference between a devops engineer and a release engineer or security administrator versus a security engineer. But perhaps most critically, I believe personas are immutable. Mhm. A persona is wholly dependent on how someone identifies themselves. It's intrinsic not extrinsic. Their titles may change their jobs may differ but they're probably >>still selecting the same persona on that ubiquitous drop down. We all have to choose >>from when registering for an >>event. Probably this one too. I I was a developer and I will always identify as a developer despite doing a ton of work in areas like devops and Ai ops and Deverell >>in my heart. I'm a developer I think about problems from that perspective. First it influences my thinking and my approach. Mhm roles are very different. Roles are temporary, >>inconsistent, >>constantly fluctuating. If I were an actress, the parts I would play would be lengthy and varied but the persona I would identify as would remain an actress and artist >>lesbian. >>Your work isn't confined >>to a single set of skills. It may have been a decade ago but it is not today >>in any given week or sprint. You may play the role of an architect thinking about how to design a feature or service, >>developer, building out code or fixing a bug >>and on automation engineer, looking at how to improve manual >>processes. We often refer to as soil release engineer, deploying code to different environments or releasing it to customers. >>We're in operations. Engineer, ensuring an application functions >>inconsistent expected ways >>and no matter what role we play. We have to consider a number of issues. >>The first is test ability. All software systems require >>testing to assure architects >>that designs work developers that code works operators, that >>infrastructure is running as expected >>and engineers of all disciplines >>that code changes won't >>bring down the whole system testing >>in its many forms >>is what enables >>systems to be durable and have >>longevity. It's what reassures engineers that changes >>won't impact current functionality. A system without tests >>is a disaster waiting to happen. Which is why test ability >>is first among >>equals at this particular roundtable. Security is everyone's responsibility. But if you understand how to design and execute secure systems, I struggle with this security incidents for the most >>part are high impact, low >>probability events. The really big disasters, the one that the ones that end up on the news and get us all free credit reporting >>for a year. They don't happen super frequently and >>then goodness because you know that there are >>endless small >>vulnerabilities lurking in our systems. >>Security is something we all know we should dedicate time to but often don't make time for. >>And let's be honest, it's hard and >>complicated >>and a little scary. The cops. The first derivative of deVOPS asked engineers >>to move >>security left this approach. Mint security was a consideration >>early in the process, not something that would block >>release at the last moment. >>This is also the consideration under which I'm putting compliance >>and governance >>well not perfectly aligned. I figure all the things you have to call lawyers for should just live together. >>I'm kidding. But >>in all seriousness, these three concepts >>are really about >>risk management, >>identity, >>data, authorization. It doesn't really matter what specific issue you're speaking about. The question >>is who has access to what, when and how and that is everyone's responsibility at every stage, site, reliability, engineering or SRE is a discipline and job and approach for good reason, it is absolutely >>critical that >>applications and services work as expected. Most of the time. That said, availability is often mistakenly >>treated as a synonym >>for reliability. Instead, it's a single aspect of the concept if a system is available but customer data is inaccurate or out of sync. >>The system is >>not reliable, reliability has five key components, availability latency through but fidelity and durability, reliability >>is the end result. But resiliency for me is the journey the action engineers >>can take to improve reliability, observe ability is the ability to have insight into an application or >>system. It's the combination of telemetry and monitoring and alerting available to engineers >>and leadership. There's an aspect of observe ability that overlaps with reliability but the purpose of observe ability >>isn't just to maintain a reliable system though, that is of course important. It is the capacity for engineers working on a system to have visibility into the inner >>workings of that system. The concept of observe ability actually >>originates and linear >>dynamic systems. It's defined as how well internal states of a system can be understood based on information about its external outputs when it is critical when companies move systems to the cloud or utilize managed services that they don't lose visibility and confidence in their systems. The shared >>responsibility model >>of cloud storage compute and managed services >>require that engineering teams be able to quickly be alerted to identify and remediate >>issues as they arise, flexible systems are capable of >>adapting to meet the ever changing >>needs of the customer and the market segment, flexible code bases absorb new code smoothly. Embody a clean separation of concerns, are partitioned into small components or classes >>and architected to enable the Now as >>well as the next inflexible systems. Change dependencies are reduced or eliminated. Database schemas, accommodate change well components communicate via a standardized and well documented A. P. I. >>The only thing >>constant in our industry is >>change and every role we play, >>creating flexibility and solutions that can be >>flexible that will grow >>as the applications grow >>is absolutely critical. >>Finally, scalability scalability refers to more than a system's ability to scale for additional >>load. It implies growth >>scalability in the revolution model carries the continuous >>innovation of a team >>and the byproducts of that growth within a system. For me, scalability is the most human of the considerations. It requires each of us in our various roles >>to consider everyone >>around us, our customers who use the system or rely on its services, our colleagues, >>current and future with whom we collaborate and even our future selves. Mhm. >>Software development isn't a straight line, nor is it a perfect loop. >>It isn't ever changing complex dance. >>There are twirls and pivots and difficult spins >>forward and backward engineers move in parallel, creating truly magnificent pieces of art. We need a modern >>model for this modern >>era, and I believe this is just the >>revolution to get us started. Thank you so much for having me. Mm.

(upbeat music) >> Hi, I'm Emily Freeman, author of DevOps for dummies. My talk revolution in DevOps discusses a wild idea that we should throw away the SDLC. That's right. The software development or delivery lifecycle. The thing we talk about all the time has been around since the 1960s. And I think it's time for a refresh. I hope you'll join me at the AWS startup showcase, where we discuss new breakthroughs in DevOps, data analytics, and cloud management tools. It's on September 22nd at 9:00 AM. Pacific. Hope to see you there. (cheerful music)

>> Reporter: Live from Stanford University, it's theCUBE, covering Stanford Women in Data Science 2020. Brought to you by SiliconANGLE media. >> Hi, and welcome to theCUBE. I'm your host, Sonia Tagare, and we're live at Stanford University covering the fifth annual WiDs, Women in Data Science conference. Joining us today is Emily Glassberg Sands, the Head of Data Science at Coursera, Emily, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks, so great to be on. >> So, tell us a little bit more about what you do at Coursera. >> Yeah, absolutely, so Coursera is the world's largest platform for higher education. We partner with about 160 universities and 20 industry partners and we provide top learning content from data science to child nutrition to about 50 million learners around the world. I lead the end to end data team so spanning data engineering, data science and machine learning. >> Wow, and we just had Daphne Koller on earlier this morning who is the co-founder of Coursera and she's also the one who hired you. >> Yeah. >> So tell us more about that relationship. >> Well, I love Daphne, I think the world of her, as I will talk about shortly, she actually didn't hire me from the start. The first answer I got one from Coursera was a no, that the company wasn't quite ready for someone who wasn't a full blown coder. But I eventually talked to her into bringing me on board, and she's been an inspiration ever since. I think one of my first memories of Daphne was when she was painting the vision of what's possible with online education, and she said, "think about the first movie." The first movie was literally just filming a play on stage. You'll appreciate this, given your background in film, and then fast forward to today and think about what's possible in movies that could never be possible on the brick-and-mortar stage. And the analog she was creating was the first MOOC, the first Massive Open Online Course was very simply filming a professor in a classroom. But she was thinking forward to today and tomorrow and five years from now, and what's possible in terms of how data and technology can transform, how educators teach and how learners learn. >> That's very cool. So, how has Coursera changed from when she started it to now? >> So, it's evolved a lot. So, I've been at Coursera about six years, when I joined the company, it had less than 50 people. Today we're 10 times that size, we have 500. I think there have been obviously dramatic growth in the platform over all the three main changes to our business model. The first is we've moved from partnering exclusively with universities to recognizing that actually, a lot of the most important education for folks in the labor market is being taught within companies. So, Google is super incentivized to train people in Google Cloud, Amazon and AWS. Folks need to learn Tableau and a whole host of other software's. So, we've expanded to including education that's provided not just by top institutions like Stanford, but also by top institutions that are companies like Amazon and Google. The second big change is we've recognized that while for many learners and individual course or a MOOC is sufficient, some learners need access to full degree, a diploma bearing credential. So we've moved to the degree space we now have 14 degrees live on the platform masters in computer science and data science but also in business, accounting, and so on. And the third major changes, I think just sort of as the world has evolved to recognize that folks need to be learning throughout their lives. There's also general consensus that it's not just on the individuals to learn, but also on their companies to train them and governments as well, and so we launched Coursera enterprise, which is about providing learning content through employers and through governments so we can reach a wider swath of individuals who might not be able to afford it themselves. >> And how are you able to use data science to track individual, user preferences and user behavior? >> Yeah, that's a great question so you can imagine right? 50 million learners, they're from almost every country in the world from a range of different backgrounds have a bunch of different goals, And so I think what you're getting out is that so much of creating the right learning experience for each person is about personalizing that experience. And we personalized throughout the learner journey so in discovery up-front, when you first joined the platform, we ask you, what's your career goal? What role are you in today? And then we help you find the right content to close the gap. As you're moving through courses we predict whether or not you need some additional support. Whether it's a fully automated intervention like a behavioral nudge, emphasizing growth mindset, or a pedagogical nudge like recommending the right review material and provide it to you, and then we also do the same to accelerate support staff on campus. So, we identify for each individual what type of human touch might they need, and we serve up to support staff recommendations for who they should reach out to, whether it's a counselor reaching out to degree student who hasn't logged in for a while, or a TA reaching out to a degree student who's struggling with an assignment. So, data really powers all of that, understanding someone's goals, their backgrounds, the content that's going to close the gap, as well as understanding where they need additional support and what type of help we can provide. >> And how are you able to track this data, are you using AV testing? >> Yeah, great question, so the, we call it a venting level data, which basically tracks what every learner is doing as they're moving through the platform. And then we use AV testing to understand the influence of kind of our big feature. So, say we roll out a new search ranking algorithm or a new learning experience we would AV-Test that, yes to understand how learners in the new variant compared to learners in the old variant. But for many of our machine learn systems, we're actually doing more of a multi-armed bandit approach where on the margin, we're changing a little bit the experience people have to understand what effect that has on their downstream behavior, separate from this mass hold-in or hold-out AV-Test. >> And so today, you're giving a talk about Coursera's latest data products so give us a little insight about that. >> So, I'm covering three data products that we've launched over the last couple of years. The first two are oriented around really helping learners be successful in the learning experience. So the first is predicting when learners are going to need additional nudges and intervening in fully automated ways to get them back on track. The second is about identifying learners who need human support and serving up really easily interpretable insights to support staff so they can reach out to the right learner with the right help. And then the third is a little bit different. It's about once learners are out in the labor market, how can they credibly signal what they know, so that they can be rewarded for that learning on the job. And this is a product called skill scoring, where we're actually measuring what skills each learner has up to what level so I can for example, compare that to the skills required in my target career or show it to my employer so I can be rewarded for what I know. >> That can be really helpful when people are creating resumes, by ranking how much of a skill that they have. >> Absolutely. So, it's really interesting when you talk about resumes, so many of what, so much of what's shown on resumes are traditional credentials, things like What school did you go to? what did you major in? what jobs have you had? And as you and I both know, there's unequal access to the school you go to or the early jobs you get. And so, part of the motivation behind skill scoring is to create more equitable or fair or accessible signals for the labor market. So, we're really excited about that direction. >> And do you think companies are taking that into consideration when they're hiring people who say have like a five out of five skills in computer science, but they didn't go to Stanford? >> Yeah. >> Think they're taking that >> Absolutely, I think companies are hungry to find more diverse talent and the biggest challenge is, when you look at people from diverse backgrounds, it's hard to know who has what skills. And so skill scoring provides a really valuable input, we're actually seeing it in use already by many of our enterprise customers who are using it to identify who have their internal employees is well positioned for new opportunities or new roles. For example, I may have a bunch of backend engineers, if I know who's good in math and machine learning and statistics, I can actually tap those folks to transition over to machine learning roles. And so it's used both as an external signal and external labor market, as well as an internal signal within companies. >> And just our last question here, what advice would you give to young women who are either out of college or just starting college who are interested in data science? Who maybe, don't haven't majored in a typical data science major? What advice would you give to them? >> So, I love that you asked you haven't made it, majored in a typical data science major. I'm actually an economist by training. And I think that's probably the reason why I was at first rejected from Coursera because an economist is a very strange background to go into data science. I think my primary advice to those young women would be to really not get too lost in the data science, in the math, in the algorithms and instead to remember that those are a means to an end, and the end is impact. So, think about the problems in the world that you care about. For me, it's education. For others, it's health care, or personal finance or a range of other issues. And remember that data science provides this vast set of tools that you can use to solve the problems you care about most. >> That's great, thank you so much for being on theCUBE. >> Thank you. I'm Sonia Tagare, thank you so much for watching theCUBE and stay tuned for more. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering NetApp Insight 2018, brought to you by NetApp. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage today of NetApp Insight 2018, I am Lisa Martin. Stu Miniman is my co-host for the day, and we're welcoming to theCUBE, for the first time, a couple of guests, one from NetApp, my former colleague, Emily Miller, acting VP of brand content and influencer marketing. And one of this morning's keynote, Gerd Leonhard, futurist, the CEO of The Futures Agency. I loved, Gerd, I loved your keynote this morning, it was very very interesting and informative. >> Thank you. >> And I liked how you said, you don't predict the future, you observe the future. So Emily, thinking about NetApp, its history, NetApp today, and in the future, talk to us a little bit about how this brand has transformed. >> Sure >> Not just digitally, for IT, but transforming, taking the feedback, and the really, kind of direction from your customers. >> Sure, so if I think about, you know, NetApp's been around for 25 years and we've played a great role in the, you know, kind of the storage history. But over the last few years as our customers' needs have changed, you know, really having to have data as your design point, how everything is evolving, changing, hybrid cloud, multi-cloud, we had to listen to that and knowing that our customers are going to places like AI and, you know, deep learning, we have to move there. And so, a couple years ago, we looked at who are we as a company and who are we going to be for the next 25 years? And our purpose now is around how we empower our customers to change the world with data because that is what they are doing. So using a lot of these technologies, and the things that Gerd talked about this morning, it is happening, and so, we've got some great customers we're working with, where we're able to kind of see that brand promise come to life with things they're doing, and we're just excited to be able to continue to work with those companies that are pushing the edge because that helps us be better and be more proactive about the future. >> When you talk with customers, #datadriven is all over, right? We've been hearing that for a while. What is being data driven mean to a customer, because as Gerd talked about in his keynote this morning, there's always that conversation, Stu, we hear it all the time on theCUBE, on ethics. >> Right. >> When you talk about enabling customers to be data driven and developing a data strategy, how do they internalize that and actually work with NetApp to execute? >> Right, so we really see it as putting data at the heart of your business, it is that lifeblood, it has to be centered around that. And then, thinking about data fabric, it's really the strategy and the approach, so how do you envision how data from all over, all parts of your organization are able to be leveraged? You get the access and the insights, and you can utilize it. You don't want it to be stagnant, you've got to be able to use it to make better decisions, to have that information, those insights at your fingertips to do the things that have to be done in real time, all the time. >> So Gerd, we want to bring you into discussion here, there's certain fears, for people in technology, "Oh my gosh, my job's going to be "replaced, that can be automated." You know, I've gone to shows, talk about, oh hey, in humans, you're good at getting things to 95, 96%. You know, I can get perfectly accurate if I let the robots just automate things. You write about humans versus technology, what's your take? You know, singularity's coming, you were saying, so are we all out of a job? >> Well, this is of course, what I call a reductionism, right? It's the idea that you would have a machine who would do just what I do, exactly what I do, for very little money, and then you would have thousands of other machines that do thousands of other things, then. And the fact is that, I think McKinsey's study says only 5% of all jobs that can be automated, can be fully automated. So, even a pilot can be automated, but I wouldn't fly an airplane without a pilot, so we still have a pilot. And data scientists can be automated by an AI, yes, but there'll be many things that I need the data scientist for as a person. So, if you take human skills, what I call the andro-rhythms, you know, the human things. So, passion, ingenuity, design, creativity, negotiation. I think computers may learn that in 100 years, but to really be compassionate, it will have to be alive. And I wouldn't want them to be alive. So, I'm saying that yes, true, I think if you only do routine, like bookkeeping, like low level financial advice, like driving a bus. You have to retrain and relearn, yes. But otherwise, I wouldn't be that negative, I think there's also so many new things happening. I mean, 10 years ago, we didn't have social media managers, right, and now we got what, 30 million? So, I'm not that dark on the future there. >> I'm glad, you actually, you gave a great quote from Albert Einstein talking about that, really, imagination is infinite as opposed to, knowledge is kind of contained. NetApp talks a lot about being data driven, you gave the Jeff Bezos example of, you know, I need to listen to it. But there's heart, and there's kind of history, there's another great line from Jeff Bezos, is, "There is no compression algorithm for experience." So, how do we as humans balance that humanity and the data and the numbers? >> Well, the reality is, we don't live in a binary world. When we look at technology, it's always about yes, no, yes, no, zero, one. That's what machines do, we don't do that. (laughs) Humans are called multinary, which is essentially, to us, a lot more things matter than yes or no. Like, it depends, maybe, it may change, and so on. And so if we just look at that and say it's going to be data or humans, we have to pick one of the two, that will be a rather strange suggestion. I think we need to say that it's sometimes data, sometimes human, but we have to keep the humans in the loop, that's my key phrase. >> And I would say, I feel like that's really our opportunity as humans, is to decide where is the value, where is the layer of value that we add on. You know, again, kind of thinking back to NetApp's history, we're moving from storage to data, we are evolving. We have to add value at a higher level for our customers, and what was something that maybe we did as humans, and for advising, that's automated now, like think of the demo we saw this morning, and now what is that additional layer of value that you add on top? >> Yeah absolutely, as you're both saying, it's not a binary thing, Andy McPheener from Jolmston, from MIT, say, tracing with the machines, that humans plus machines will do way better than either humans or robots alone. >> You know, I think if you are arguing that we would be in a perfect world if the machines could run it perfectly, then I would argue that world would be a machine, right? So, it would be perfect, but it wouldn't be human, so what are we getting, right? It's a bad deal, so I think we need to find a good balance between the two, and also carve out things that are not about data. You know, like dating and love, relationships, you know, that can be about data, like matching, right? But in the end, the relationship isn't about data. (laughs) >> Well, you even said this morning, it's, knowledge is not the same thing as understanding. >> Right. >> And that's kind of where we are at these crossroads. Emily, let's kind of wrap up with you, you got some interesting customer examples, of how NetApp is helping customers become and live that data driven life, and embrace these emerging technologies, like AI. >> Right, so we have a customer we're working with in Serbia, and they are basically kind of digitizing a human to be able to interact from an AI standpoint, in terms of having an interactive conversation. And I've seen some of this before, with interviewing your grandparents, and you can store them, and you can interact, and I think what's really exciting, is that gives you the opportunity to do something you never could do before. I think to your points this morning, it's, how do we make sure we don't lose the richness from those more kind of offline experiences, so that they are complimentary? If we, as we expand and do things that we couldn't think about, that we didn't, we couldn't envision or imagine, and I think that's about being a data visionary. Like the people at the companies like 3Lateral, like we've seen today, on Wuji NextCODE on stage, the data visionaries are those who are saying, how can data transform my, not just my company, but my industry, my category, and how do I really think about it completely differently? >> It's an exciting time. Emily, Gerd, thank you so much, I wish we had more time to chat with you guys, but we appreciate you stopping by theCUBE and sharing your insights. >> Great, thank you. >> You're welcome. >> Insight, pun intended. I'm Lisa Martin with Stu Miniman, we are with theCUBE, live all day at NetApp Insight 2018, stick around, Stu and I will be right back with our next guest.

(vibrant orchestral music) >> Hi, I'm Peter Burns and welcome to another CUBE Conversation from our beautiful studios in Palo Alto, California. I'm actually very excited about today's conversation because we'll be talking about the potential of human beings, of people within organizations, given this tumultuous change in this digital transformation. And to help talk about some of these crucial issues we've got, Emily He from, who is senior vice president of HCM Cloud marketing from Oracle. Emily, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you for having me. >> So let's just jump right into it. Let's start by, I mean Oracle's got to interesting approach. Cloud a customer, the idea of bringing the Cloud or forming applications into Cloud services. So why don't we start, what is going on with HCM Cloud at Oracle? >> You said exactly the right thing: which is, we have a very unique approach to the cloud. So we spent the last few years completely rewriting our HCM application for the Cloud. And when I think about 11 years ago when iPhone first came into being, a lot of the HR, HCM vendors rushed to embrace the mobile interface because they think that's the panacea for user adoption. As long as HR software as existed, we've always had issues with user adoptions. The early Cloud vendors really just moved their applications to the Cloud and their focus is to simplify the user interfaces by delivering this modern user experience. The problem is, that didn't really solve the fundamental user adoption problem. There data quality issues, data security issues. The work flow was cumbersome and the user interface wasn't friendly enough, right? So when Oracle started rewriting the Cloud a few years back, we took a very different approach because we already had hundreds of thousands of customers. And they had real business problems. They had complex business problems. So we're asking fundamentally very different questions. The questions we're asking is: How can we use the Cloud, and move our customers data to the Cloud by allowing them to manage the data autonomously? So we can insure data quality, data security. And how can we make the work flow so flexible that they can adjust their business processes to meet the ever changing market conditions. And lastly, how can we push our user experience to the next frontier by embracing Chatbot, voice UI, AI and deliver that really human experience. And that's exactly what we have in Oracle HCM Cloud. We have the Auntie Anne solution, and we're doing really interesting things to push the user experience to the new frontier. >> Well, that's one of the reasons why I'm so fascinated by this topic is 'cause in many respects, as you said, HCM used to be just a set of HR processes: pay roll, hiring, separating. There was just a set of processes you had to do to comply with local employment laws. >> Exactly. >> But now we're talking about using technology to do much more, to actually mediate the activities of human beings in more complex ways, incorporating a different ways of thinking about incentives so that human facing systems, supported by AI, augmented by AI allow this incredible resource, that exist with most organizations to be more productive, more fulfilled, happier and ultimately a better resource to customers. Have I got that right? >> That's such a great point. And that's why I'm so excited about the possibility AI brings to the world of business applications. If you think back on the way we approach applications in the past, we architected business processes and we used technology to deliver to those business processes. So it's an input based system and a predictable output will come out. With AI, now you have all these data from different sources and you can get insight from the data, but more importantly, the system is now suggesting actions, it's suggesting decisions, and human beings can use those insight to create more solutions. And we're also in a situation where potentially robots are working alongside humans. So what is the definition of workforce anymore? Do we include machines in our workforce management solutions and how do we think about that? And I'm personally fascinated by the possibility of having machines augment human tasks and look at the world in a completely different way. >> Well, I think you brought up this interesting point earlier, this essential point earlier that there's been an adoption problem associated with some of these complex people-oriented applications. It might very well be that as we rethink these applications and we focus more on how AI and other types of things can augment the way people work. Because a lot of employees are saying, wait a minute, I'm not process driven. I have a set of responsibilities. I have some agency within this business to serve customers. So how can we bring together those things so that the people can do what they're suppose to do. It might actually increase the likelihood that these HCM applications get adopted. Whaddya think? >> Yah, exactly. If you think about the way we're using enterprise software now, it's actually not very natural, fun or human. Every time you go through the same process, you fill out the form and some outcome will come out. Now I don't think anyone is thrilled to come to work and use enterprise software application. It's almost like you have a coworker and every time you see him, you're having the same conversation. What's your name, what's your address, what's your phone number, right? And in contrast, the way people are engaging with consumer technology is totally different. I use Siri, and I use Google Maps to navigate my traffic. And my kids have hour long conversations with Alexa. Telling jokes and ask science questions. My son is getting Siri to do his homework, math homework, which is very distressing for me. But that's a different conversation all together. And I think that's the way humans want you engaged with enterprise technology. It's already happening, so it's really our collective work, organizations responsibility to bring that type of technology to work, but like you said, there are many open questions we have to answer. >> And not the least of which, it's just not mediate, having an interaction with a machine. But also having conversations and having machinery be able to pick that up. Be able to turn that into subsequent tasks and actions so that human beings are spending more time on the creative side. And I know you have some great examples of this. Companies that are rethinking, so how they go from a human being attended to a customer problem and how that person, perhaps far away from a normal IT process, can actually quickly translate that into something that can scale within the business. >> Yeah, exactly. Yesterday, I think I mentioned this to you before, I was listening to a podcast about how Airbnb is architecting their customer experience and the way they do it is when they think about their ideal customer experience, they have one customer in mind and they really focus on re-imagining how they can deliver this wow experience, but once they nail the experience, then they got good feedback from the customer. They use machines to scale that to millions of customers. And I think that's going to be the way people want to work in the future. Human beings are uniquely good at being creative, problem solving and that's what they enjoy doing. So if we can have them focus on those tasks and have the machines help us scale things that we know will work and use them to get insight to further fine tune the experience, that'll be such a better way to work. >> I totally agree and I think that one of the important derivatives of that is the idea that increasingly we're talking about more collaboration, recognizing and amplifying the strengths of individuals and bringing them into a work force so that everybody is more confident, more comfortable and capable of working together. Certainly that's something HCM wants to do. But it also creates a new question and we spent a lot of time on theCUBE working with executives, like yourself, talking about this. How are we going to incorporate additional diversity into the workforce with an attacking with other worlds, how do you see this whole process coming together? So technology can make it easier, can liberate the potential of a lot of diverse people within a workforce. Yah, I am a huge believer in diversity. I think diversity is good for the workforce and I personally spend a lot of time promoting diversity in the leadership rank. And there are a couple of things: One is, we definitely can use software to foster more diversity in the work place. For example, if we use software to screen resumes, we can eliminate some of the demographic data to reduce bias and the software also has the ability to, for example, help us identify the ideal candidate from looking at our existing employees and come up with the right criteria, so we can get the right candidates on board. But I also think, in this new world we still have more work to do to psychologically set ourselves up for leadership positions. And I talk to a lot of women and this is the advice I usually give them: The first thing is, this applies to both men and women. You need to, really be conscious of the kind of the personal brand you're building and when I talk about personal brand, I don't mean that you go on Twitter and tweet about your personal life and tweet sheer content. It's really about being conscious about the value you are trying to exhibit at work and use your day to day actions to demonstrate those values, and that will help you create a reputation that will have a stronger impact on your career than anything else. The other thing I notice about women is, the strength for women is, women are naturally empathetic so we're very collaborative, we want to help each other, but at the same time, sometimes that can hold us back because you don't want to hurt other people's feelings by stepping forward and taking on leadership position. And men are usually much better at raising their hands and saying, "I'm ready for this position." So I think women can learn from men, and the way to do it is something I call Micro Bravery. And that is, I believe courage is a muscle you can exercise. The more you use it, the better you'll be at it and if everyday you can push yourself to do something that you're uncomfortable with, maybe it's giving someone performance feedback or maybe it's standing up and presenting, maybe it's coming here and having a conversation with you on tv. The more you do that, the more you are going to take risks and the more comfortable you will be in stepping into those leadership positions. The other thing that I noticed about a lot of women is when they have a family, they hesitate to take leadership positions. Because they think they're part is now the family and they can't do both. I firmly believe we can do both. As a matter of fact, I think being a parent makes you a really good leader because there's so many lessons you can learn from being a parent. One of the things I find helpful is, now that I have children, every time I make a tough decision I always ask myself: If I make this decision and I tell my kids, would they proud of me? If they told me, they make this decision would I be proud of them. So it kind of help you bring humanity to work and really strengthen your moral compass. So those are things I usually tell women to be more effective at work place and hopefully they, more women will assume the leadership roles. >> I love hearing that in theCUBE. So just to quickly summarize. We've talked about how women in particular, but overall, we're going to get an increasingly diverse workforce that's going to be applied to increasingly complex problems and the powerful role that software can play if it's set up right to facilitate collaboration, facilitate interaction, augment the human experience, so we can do more, do more productively, make everyone more happy. >> Exactly, I couldn't have said it better. >> Emily He, the senior vice president of marketing at Oracle HCM. Thank you very much for being on theCube. >> Thank you so much for having me. (dramatic music)

>> Narrator: It's theCUBE, covering Sapphire Now 2017, brought to you by SAP Cloud Platform, and HANA Enterprise Cloud. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to our special coverage of SAP Sapphire Now. I'm John Furrier, here in theCUBE's studios of Palo Alto for our three days of wall to wall coverage, breaking down all the news with analysis. Our next guest here on theCUBE is Emily Mui, Senior Director of HANA Cloud Product Marketing at SAP, and Michael Hill, Senior Director of Product Marketing and SAP Cloud Platform. I had a chance to have a conversation around the big news around SAP Cloud Platform and what it means. I had a chance to ask Emily and Michael about the Sapphire impact around this new strategy, and the impact of multi-cloud. Here's the conversation with Michael and Emily. >> Three things to remember, three Cs, it's about helping accelerate cloud adoption, consumption, as well as-- >> [Michael And John] Choice. >> Choice, because of multi-cloud. >> So this is interesting. So the three Cs, I love that, very gimmicky marketing thing that I like. It gets to the point. Choice is huge. Multi-cloud is what everyone's talking about, in essence is what hybrid cloud's turning into. I mean, hybrid cloud has been the defacto norm now everyone's talking about, that is the preferred way most enterprises are using the cloud on premise and some public cloud, call it hybrid. But now, the mobile cloud's out here. There's Amazon Web Service, you've got Google, Azure, so there's a lot of, so the choice is critical, where to put what were clothes. >> And that's what we're hearing from our customers, and that's why we're moving in that direction. Not everyone wants to stick to one infrastructure as a service provider, they've got multiple clouds to manage, and we're enabling that. >> So choice I get. Cloud adoption is essentially creating those APIs to give them that accelerated approach. More cloud adoption means what? I've got be able to run stuff in the cloud faster, so that means getting their apps API, the API economy. And the consumption, is that on the interface side, or what's the consumption piece of it? >> Well, I'm going to let Michael have a swing at it now. >> It's consumption of innovation. So here we're talking about helping companies with digital transformation with things like Internet of Things, which we had in beta, which is now generally available, so customers can intelligently connect people, things, and business processes, all together now. In addition, we've added other great technologies like SAP CoPilot, which is allowing you to talk to your enterprise systems. So initially, that's what with SAPS for HANA. And you can say, "I'm interested in, "tell me all the open orders from the last quarter." And it will intelligently go get that information. >> It's like a voice recognition, all kinds of news things are coming out. >> Absolutely. >> As a user interface, or interface on cloud. >> They're for the enterprise. >> Or IT interface. >> On your phone or on your computer. >> So it's all being automated. We all know AI, that's just, "All our jobs are being automated." But this is specific. You're saying you're going to interface in with like CoPilot. >> Exactly. So you've got that business context. >> All right, let's step back and look at the Lego blocks. The cloud choice, multi-cloud. Let's get in, and then we'll talk about the adoption piece, how you guys are accelerating that through the marketplaces and APIs, and then the consumption through the new interfaces. So start with multi-cloud. What are the big points there? >> Well, the first is the agility that your platform as a service is now available on not just SAP data centers, but Amazon Web Services, Microsoft Azure, and Google Cloud Platform, being delivered. Amazon Web Services is now generally available, Azure is now beta, and there's a preview of Google Cloud Platform. And here you have one cockpit in SAP Cloud Platform to manage this multi-cloud infrastructure. >> So your strategy is to put your platform as a service on the clouds that customers want to run their workloads on? >> Exactly. So customers may already have specific workloads, or they may be working with partners that have workloads in those particular clouds. And now, SAP Cloud Platform can run in that same infrastructure. >> So the plan is to support the platform as a service from SAP on the clouds of choice for the customer. So they want to put stuff on Azure, if it's related to Office 365, or something going on with that, they could put it there. If they want to put some cloud-native on Amazon Web Service, they can. If they want to use Spanner and some TensorFlow, they could put that on Google. >> And to make this happen was really cool thing, is that we did this through our work in Cloud Foundry, and this allows you to bring your own development language, so BYOL. So if you have developers that are working in a particular language that's not supported natively by SAP previously, they can now be instantly productive on building applications on SAP Cloud Platform. >> So Cloud Foundry is the key to success on this? >> Yeah. Exactly. And that bring things like Node.js, and Python, as well as SAPs. >> All the cloud-native goodness that people want from a developer standpoint. >> Exactly. >> But yet, you guys allow it to run on Prim within the SAP constructs. >> Yep. >> All right, let's talk about cloud adoption, 'cause this is where the big rubber hits the road. Emily, we've been talking about the API economy for years. In fact, SAP was early on, and Web Services going through bankrupt. But there's some real value in here, because SAP runs software in some of the biggest businesses, so there's a lot of nuances to SAP. But when you go cloud and cloud-native, you've got to balance preexisting install base legacy with new apps that are being developed, how are you guys going to do that? >> So we announced the API Business Hub around a year ago at Sapphire in 2016, and it has grown tremendously in terms of content. So we had a lot of new APIs that keep getting added every month. And we're into the hundreds now. But it's not just the APIs, we've got integration workflows, there's all kinds of different content that's being added in there to make easier for our customers and partners to be able to leverage, and integrate, and connect, these different application with SAP back-end. So lot of exciting things happening on that end. >> So this allows them to go to the cloud business model. >> Emily: Exactly, right. >> Okay, now back to the consumption pieces, CoPilot. So is this where you guys are looking at where the dynamic nature of cloud can take advantage of the customers, because not only interfacing with, say, voice, for instance, there's others things, like, "Okay, I want to change processes. "I have the Workflow, or I'm doing something, "I want to just, "I'm not a developer, a Python developer, "I want to go in and make some rule changes, "or things of that nature." >> Yeah, so we have the Workflow service, that's also available. We've got a whole host of new capabilities that are coming out, and we'll call it digital edge, giving our customers a digital edge with these new innovative services. >> Edge as the user and also machines. >> Yes. >> That's where the IoT piece comes in. >> Exactly. >> So decision maker or customer says, "Hey, I've done all this stuff in the cloud." All of a sudden, someone says, "Well, we've got to bolt on some industrial data "from machines in our plant or factory." >> In fact, our IoT, the newest set of capabilities for IoT services is available at Sapphire. >> Okay, s\o what's the big takeaway from this? Let's just boil it down. Bottom line, this announcement impacts customers in what way? >> In many ways. We see many of customers wanting to become digital. And we've talked about how we think the benefits of cloud platform has to do with helping our customers become much more agile in how they do business, and SAP is in perfect position to do that. We've been working with companies, enterprises for years with their business processes, helping them optimize it. So that's the other bit, to be able to optimize all their business processes, and through the cloud. And then lastly, digital is the way to that they want to go. They know they want to be able to adopt all these new technologies. AI is so exciting. The CoPilot, if you've seen the demo, and you can see it at show floor here at Sapphire, it's amazing. Just the fact that you can talk to it, create an order, do some search, talk to it. I know that's how my kids, how they get through everyday life. They don't go look up anything anymore, they don't even Google, just talk. >> It's very dynamic. Certainly, the kids are an indicator, that you see if they want things, have the ability to move things around like the Lego blocks or composability. >> Yeah, so the speed, so that's why we love talking about accelerating consumption, and choice, and cloud adoption, because the speed of which everyone is adopting new technologies is just astronomical. >> Michael, comment on that point, because I always, this is our eight year covering Sapphire with theCUBE. It's our first year we're doing it from the studio as well. But Bill McDermott has always been on this with the whole dashboarding thing. If you look at SAP, the speed of business, how (mumbles) year that was. But each year, he never really changed, it's been the same arc, might've been a zigzag here and there, a little success factors here and there, all this kind of integration you guys have done. But it's been the same message, data's at the heart of the customers' outcomes. And the dashboards of old were data warehouses. But now he was showing a vision where, with the speed of data, the speed of software, you can get your business dashboard at your fingertips. That's what the customers are looking for. Your thoughts? >> It's not only being able to get that information at your fingertips, but actually being able to do something about it. So you can build those applications that can make an impact. So if you have, you're using our iOS SDK, and you've build that Apple interface, you have a nice interface that you can move an order, or you can do something about it while you're traveling. So you have this great dashboard, but now it's actionable. >> And this is the big difference, this is what makes his original vision, which certainly you can replicate with SAP's suite of data, and data and software, to a whole nother dimension of new apps. So app developers can come in and create these apps, and create new value propositions. >> Absolutely. >> All right, so how do they do that? What's the advice the customers, as they look at this new announcement, the impact of them, what does it mean to customer? Pick your cloud of choice? Use the APIs? >> Plenty of choices, and of course, we offer them a lot of guidance too, right? Because we've got a lot of great customers that are using the cloud platform today, some of which are presenting here at Sapphire. Karma Automotive, we love their story. They used to be Fisker Automotive, an all electronic vehicle. And it's amazing that the things that they want to do, and they're using the cloud platform in order to do that. But it's just another example of an innovative company that's looking to work with a company like SAP, and do everything in the cloud, building an application that will make it easier in terms of IoT, the sensors, and things like that, so they can track it to be able to take action on it. So it's very exciting. So lots of new things that are happening. >> I think there's two things that jump out at me, just to summarize the freedom that developers in the cloud-native world can do to create new apps, that also blend in on all of the existing value that SAP's already doing in the marketplace, that's always been, that was something that I observed last year, this is now a realization of that. But two, is now the customers now have a choice to put whatever they want in whatever cloud. And to me, what we've seen on theCUBE over the many interviews we've done, people who follow theCUBE know we've talked to a lot of people, is the workloads find their homes, some like Amazon, some like Azure, some like Google, and I think that is what customers are telling us, and you guys are now offering that choice. "Hey, put some workloads over there. "It doesn't matter where you want to put 'em, "we're just going to run 'em with--" >> And where we can help is really on the business service side. We have the right types of application services within the platform as a service offering, to enable them to create those types of apps to support their business. >> Applications, data, value for customers. >> And it's the integration of data into the application, because that's what's important. >> There'll be a new generation of application developers. We're standing up application like PowerPoint slides, really composing apps, that is the DevOps mainstream trend. Emily, thanks so much for sharing the great news. Michael, good to see you. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. Special Sapphire Now 2017 coverage. Breaking the news of the three Cs, multi-cloud, SAP's new announcement in Orlando. This is theCUBE coverage. More coverage after this short break.

(upbeat techno music) >> Okay, welcome back to SiliconANGLE's Cube special two-day coverage of Mobile World Congress 2017. The hashtag is #MWC17. My next guess is Emily Mui who is with SAP Cloud, formerly SAP HANA Cloud. Great to see you. Thanks for coming in. >> Good seeing you again, John. It's been a ... Over a year. >> Since Sapphire, since the big news of ... >> That's right. >> The cloud team kind of really showing its stuff. >> Yes. >> That was called the the HANA Cloud. >> Yes. >> Now it's called SAP Cloud. The name changed. Give us a little bit more deeper ... Meaning behind the name, why the name changed, 'cause, you know, everyone knows what HANA is. >> Yes. >> HANA's got a great brand name. >> Right. >> Why drop HANA? What's the deal? >> Well, very good question. I like to talk about ... I've been with this product for over two years now, and I've really seen the evolution of the product. We have so many more capabilities than we did about three years ago, and a lot of it is customer-driven and demand-driven and market-driven. So what we realized is that yes, we have a lot of customers that wanted to do real-time decision, but then we also had a lot of customers that wanted to talk about IOT, use IOT. They want to talk about machine learning, they want to talk about analytics, so it's not just about HANA. So the name change really helps reflect the product and the evolution of this platform as a service that is now known as SAP Cloud Platform. >> So mainly what I hear you saying is that it's gone broader than that. So it's not ... HANA was like a Ferrari, something really good and was great at what it did ... >> [Emily] Yes. >> And that's all great, but the Cloud is more, right? >> Exactly. >> [ John] And what specifically more would you mean? Non-HANA solutions, or ... Greenfield opportunities? >> We have so many customers that do different things, and they're the ones that are helping us understand what is needed to be in the product. So there are many, and what we've learned is that there's a lot of business value that they're seeing from it, and they're the ones telling us that they're trying to be more agile, they're trying to optimize their business processes, and what's interesting is they want to become digital, and I'm not talking about the Ubers of the world, or the Airbnb. I'm talking about those traditional brick-and-mortar companies, manufacturers that are trying to figure out, how do I stay competitive? How do I get one step ahead of the game, and how do I use technology to do that? >> One of the things I love about Mobile World Congress is that it's like CES but in a different way. CES is hardcore early adopters. Yeah, Mobile World Congress is a lot of people who love the device news, yeah, so-and-so's got a new phone, 5G's going to be amazing, it's going to power autonomous vehicles. So, there's some glam and sex appeal inside with some of the tech, but it's almost like a meat and potatoes kind of show in the sense that it's mostly, it's a very business deal-oriented show. A lot of telecos trying to figure out their future, a lot of enterprises trying to figure out how things like network function virtualization works with mobile apps, so you're seeing kind of what I call the early adopter market be more of a CES, and Mobile World Congress be more of a ... Okay, how do you make it real? So this seems to be the topic that we're seeing across the hundreds of events that we go to at theCUBE a year, which is you have the Ubers and Airbnbs, the pioneers, the Facebooks. Then you have the settlers who come in and say, okay, I get it now. I understand what digital transformation means. Now I want to operationalize it. And Amazon Web Services has been so much success with their cloud, in the enterprise, of all places, now. So that's a tell sign that ... Real businesses ... >> [Emily] Yes. >> Not the unicorns, want to use the technology. >> [Emily] Right. >> Do you see the same thing, and can you give some anecdotal or specific examples of how a normal business gets SASSified, and what path does it take? >> So, a really good point and really good question. So one of the customers that is actually going to be at Mobile World Congress is Mapal, and they are a mid-size German precision tool manufacturer. And you think, how are they going to use the cloud and cloud technology to help them improve their business, and it's quite interesting, because they're trying to become digital. They are, you know, and this is ... Their way of doing business is not different from how anyone else is doing. They're trying to connect their suppliers, their customers together, and then be able to track what's happening with the tools that they're manufacturing. The whole life cycle of that tool, from the minute they actually start manufacturing to the point of selling it. But they're using technology to do that, right? And so they're using that SAP Cloud platformm creating the application, and then being able to track what's happening and then providing visibility to their customers, to everyone on the plant floor, to their suppliers, so they're connecting everyone together. >> You know, Emily, I was just talking with Jeff Frick, who runs theCUBE. We had our Silicon Valley Friday show last week, and we were talking about some of the conversations that we hear in cloud from some of the normal businesses out there, and things like microservices ... It's a geeky term, but microservices, containers, a lot of application conversations happening, so you hear that, and also you hear about integration. So these are the two hottest areas that we see, because basically, the SAP has been in the process business. We value chains and manufacturing, customer support, and CRM, ZRP, all that good stuff that goes on, but now, those are being completely shattered and reconfigured with cloud. So integration is top of mind, whether it's an IOT, internet of things or a new application. How does this all get threaded together? Can you share some insight into the SAP Cloud strategy, and what things do you offer to those customers, because that seems to be the critical decision point for most CXOs on the cloud SASSification. >> That's another good point, because we see a lot of customers trying to connect. They're trying to figure out how to get to the cloud, and no one is immediately jumping to it, so they've got different applications that they're trying to build out, but in order to do that, they have to connect their backend, right? And not all of it is cloud application. Most of it is on-premises, and so you've got legacy systems, you've got some SAP applications, you've got some other ... I shouldn't mention venture applications, and then they're trying to figure out how do you extend and create new applications? So how do you bring it all together? So integration is one of the key services that we provide. APIs, integration ... We've also invested in microservices technology. SAP's heavily looking into that and seeing how we can help those companies out there who want to leverage that type of technology. How do they bring all that together? Build small applications, connect everything together, and then build out an application that will help support their business. New opportunities for their customers to make their customer experience better, for their employees, and trying to track talent. So there are a lot of different use cases where ... >> What are the top three use cases that you're seeing there right now from your customer base, as they look at the HANA Cloud ... Well, it's not HANA Cloud. The SAP Cloud. >> Yes. >> New name. When they look at it, what do they gravitate to? What does the ... I mean, it's not all the same, but I mean, some low-hanging fruit. >> Right. >> Most people say, oh, test/dev, but probably in SAP. What is that low-hanging fruit for you guys, and where do you see more of these ... >> Integration. I mean, a lot of times, they start with integration, because they need to bring that together, but integration's kind of a means to an end. So, an example I can think of is we have a customer named Owens-Illinois. They're a glass manufacturer, another real business, right? It doesn't always sound so sexy, but the reality ... >> They're billion ... These are billion-dollar businesses out there ... >> Yes, exactly. >> That aren't called Uber, and no one's ever heard of them, but they're businesses, doing their thing. >> Exactly. And they need to be able to integrate their backend. They had this one specific requirement where they had to quickly meet the requirements of the Peruvian government, because they needed to create e-invoicing, and if they weren't able to bring together their backend systems, build out this application to do e-invoicing, their plant in Peru was going to get shut down. So, really good example ... >> [John] A critical path item. >> Exactly. Integration, and then being able to extend that. So those are really key examples of what our customers are doing, and then of course innovation, just coming up with something completely brand new. You know, there's so many examples of of those types of ... >> You know, you mention some of these traditional businesses, whether they're a glass company or a tooling company or whatever. This is really highlighting the big trend, internet of things, or IOT. AI kind of gets bolted into that 'cause it's got machine learning and using data and things. Is the digitization of business ... It's not just like IT and getting your email and things of that nature. Seeing the industrial, analog side of the business being digitized, so, with sensors ... You can't look any further than some of the more obvious consumer examples, the Tesla car, self-driving cars, drones, all have data. And so that's kind of a mental model for most folks, but it could be plant and machinery, it could be airplanes, flown off data ... This is the industrialization of this new era. >> Right. >> [John] Of data. >> Yep. >> That's connected to the internet. Therefore, it is an internet-connected device that needs to be managed. So this is a new use case that points to some of these businesses that are now digitizing. Is that a big part of the new IOT service, and how do you guys talk to that market, because some of it's not an IT market, they're like a normal business market, that might have SAP accounting software, or manufacturing software... >> Well, I mean, I think, like most companies and most people out there, everyone's a consumer, right? We talk about companies, but within those companies, we're talking about employees, people, and everyone has a phone, a smartphone of some sort, if not an iPhone, an Android device. There's so much data that's being generated. I could give an example of my teenage ... Just turned teenage boy, and I don't want him to carry cash around. He wants to go to Starbucks, so I make sure that he has an account set up. So it's easy. All that ... Just think about the way he's transacting. He walks into Starbucks, and he can pay. I can see how much he's paying, what he's buying, right? So there's so much data, and businesses are transacting in such a way that they've never had to do before. >> [John] Do you track his location? >> That too. I know when he's going in the wrong direction. He's on the wrong bus, right? So, there's so much data, and businesses have to figure out what's the best way to monetize that, to create opportunities from it, right? And to provide that experience for their customers and then come up with new solutions and new products and new services. >> That's a great parent story. I feel the same. My wife and I have the surveillance tracker, and that's part and parcel to us paying for the phone, so. >> [Emily] Right. >> Quid pro quo. If they want to pay for their own phone, they can be anonymous. But that brings us back to the customer. I want to get back to the customer impact, because the challenges are also opportunities, so what are some of the key challenges that your top customers face in the cloud. Because I think right now, it's pretty obvious that Mobile World Congress is kind of proving it's no branch of the cloud. It's really the business model behind it. Okay, I need to have my business model align with the value preposition for what we sell to customers, and how do we execute that operationally? >> [Emily] Right. >> So, take us through how you guys help customers through those challenges and turn them into opportunities. >> Well, first, John, we listen to what those challenges are. We've heard it over and over again. How do I ... How does the company become agile? How can they stay competitive? And you're always trying to stay one step ahead of your competition, and how else do you do it? So agility is really important, and when we talk about agility, we're not just talking about being able to create an opportunity quickly. It's how can you become flexible? How can you integrate your backend quickly? How do you support your new business requirements? If you're IT, how do you support your business partner very quickly? So it's about agility, and we provide the software that will help them do that. The cloud platform allows them to quickly integrate and extend those applications, and then of course, optimizing business processes. Who doesn't want to be efficient? I don't know how many businesses out there who wants to do things this old-fashioned, slow way. They're always trying to do it better and quicker. >> They got to preserve the old, but kind of bring in the new at the same time, it's a ... >> Right. So how do we help them optimize that? So they're asking us that all the time, and we're SAP, right? Our bread and butter, ERP, CRM, applications. We know business processes, so we understand what it takes to help them optimize those business processes. >> I didn't get a chance to ask Dan Lahl, who I interviewed earlier, about ... Who's Vice President of Product Marketing at SAP Cloud, your colleague. I didn't get to ask him this question, but this is important. Customers want to know ... That their partner, in this case, SAP Cloud, has a healthy ecosystem around it. Why is an ecosystem important, a healthy ecosystem important for customers, and then what does SAP Cloud doing to foster more innovation and openness and relevance in that ecosystem? >> Another really good question, because SAP has a history of building out an ecosystem for partners, and with SAP Cloud platform, what's great about it is it's technology that our partners are, today, leveraging and creating applications. So for those integrators, systems integrators who work really closely with our customers or their customers, they understand their businesses. They're very intimate and close with them. So they're developing applications that will help support their needs, and there are actually a lot of these partners. We have over a thousand applications that have been built by partners today. We have 600 partners that are building applications with SAP Cloud platform, and that's quite remarkable, considering the product has been around ... for just three, four years. Four years. So, it's really good news. Our partners are really invested in this technology. >> Can you comment on some of the big news that's happening at Mobile World Congress, specifically around this concept of an integrated solution set? So we see 5G was a big announcement by Intel. You're seeing autonomous vehicles as a showcase. You saw them at CES by the way, too ... It was an auto show there, too, but it allows people to really get a sense that it's not a stovepipe or a silo anymore of software stack solutions in that, you know, you need some bandwidth, you need some glue software, you need some third-party solution. You need to have things componentized or Lego-blocked kind of designed in, so this is kind of this new fabric. Could be IOT from machine manufacturing equipment, to wearable computers, all kind of coming in. That's kind of the new solution set. What's the vision for you guys on that? >> You know, at Mobile World Congress, we actually have a couple really cool demos. I should probably say they're not just demos, but they're actually exhibits. We've got a connected vehicle. We talk about the connected stadium, and when we talk about the connected stadium, we're talking about the whole experience of someone coming to an event and then being able to use their iPhone or their Android device and be able to buy their food, be able to understand what's happening and know what, you know, be able to go to their seats, and things like that. Help them through the whole experience with a connected vehicle. Be able to rent a car, and then be able to create an expense report, all on their phone. All of that needs integration. >> [John] It's a mashup of all kinds of stuff. >> Exactly. >> An accounting system is now part of feature of a stadium. >> [Emily] Right. >> A cool sports venue. >> Think about all those business processes that have to be integrated, and not just on the IT side, but all those business processes. So, like you said. >> The speed is critical. You have to have low latency ... >> Yes. >> And great software to make that work. >> A repository, right? To be able to collect all that data, streaming data, bring all that together, and then be able to analyze and then make decisions and then trigger actions immediately, so. >> All right, so, let's go through some of the cool highlights real quick. I know we have limited time. I want to get to it. In terms of the demos, you mentioned the stadium thing. What else do you have? Explain some of the demos, and kind of give a little bit of a quick synopsis of each demo, and the coolness of it. >> Yeah, so, definitely, like I mentioned, the connected stadium's going to be a cool factor. The connected vehicle. We're going to have a car there, so that's going to be fun to watch, so, the fact that it's all connected. It's all IOT. It's through your phone. It's rental. >> [John] What's going to be in the car demo? >> Lots. (both laugh) Through the iPad, you can see certain things. I don't want to give it all away. >> So go to the demo. If you're in Barcelona, we're here in Palo Alto. >> [Emily] We'll have examples of what exactly the ... >> But what is in the car, because, if you think about it, obviously, over the years, I've seen tons of demos on stage, certainly at Sapphire and the big events. And there's a lot of real-time dashboarding stuff. Is that some of the ... The glam and flair going on at the demos? >> That's some aspect, yep. Yes. So, I can't give anything away yet. We want people to watch when we're there, but yeah. So there's going to be some cool demos there. And then we're actually going to be showcasing ... Intel, who's also a sponsor, for this particular show. This time around. Yeah, so we're going to be showing a prototype of a really simple IOT example, where we're going to connect it with Google Home and Amazon Echo, and we're able to control this little prototype building, send elevators up and down, all through bot technology. >> So SAP as a company's moving from a back office powering 80% of the world's businesses to a much more front-end, agile solution provider with technology ... >> [Emily] Exactly. >> Using the cloud and big data. >> And digital. >> [John] And digital. >> Yeah. And all of that is because our customers are demanding it. They see it, they know that ... They trust that we can help them along the way, on the backend as well as on the integration front, and help them become digital. >> But this is the transformation you guys have been at HANA. The system of record, that's the database and software. System of engagement, that's free-flowing data, and now you have AI ... >> [Emily] Yes. >> Kind of automating a lot of that real-world examples, so that seems to be the same. Nothing changes on the SAP vision on that front. >> No, it's an evolution. So I think all the technology components are in place. So AI, predictive, machine learning, that's been around forever. It seems like it's the holy grail for marketers, for people in risk management, you name it. Everyone wants to be able to use analytics. >> It's all integrated. >> Yeah, and now you've got the database, you've got the in-memory database, you've got the streaming capabilities, you've got ... There's so many different components that are now ready and in place to make it actually a reality. So it's exciting. >> Emily Mui with SAP Cloud Group. Final words, somewhere that you'd like folks to walk away with from a customer standpoint and impact here, Mobile World Congress this week. What's the big story from your perspective? >> Big story is that we've got a great cloud platform solution that people are just learning more about, and they should learn more about it, because we've got all the components, all the services available to help them become a much more agile business, help them optimize all the business processes they have in place today and the ones they're looking to create, and then of course becoming digital. It's become a benefit for them. It's an actual benefit to become digital. >> The IOT really highlights your value proposition as a company in general, and the cloud opportunity is just right ... Right lockstep with that. Congratulations. Thanks for coming out. >> Thank you. >> Emily Mui, here inside theCUBE in Palo Alto breaking down and talking about Mobile World Congress. Special two days of coverage here at Palo Alto. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (upbeat techno music) (bright instrumental music)

>>Hey guys. Welcome back to the Cubes coverage of Ansible Fast 2022. This is day two of our wall to wall coverage. Lisa Martin here with John Ferer. John, we're seeing this world where companies are saying if we can't automate it, we need to, The automation market is transforming. There's been a lot of buzz about that. A lot of technical chops here at Ansible Fest. >>Yeah, I mean, we've got a great guest here coming on Cuba alumni, Dean Newman, future room. He travels every event he's got. He's got his nose to the grindstone ear to the ground. Great analysis. I mean, we're gonna get into why it's important. How does Ansible fit into the big picture? It's really gonna be a great segment. The >>Board do it well, John just did my job for me about, I'll introduce him again. Daniel Newman, one of our alumni is Back Principal Analyst at Future and Research. Great to have you back on the cube. >>Yeah, it's good to join you. Excited to be back in Chicago. I don't know if you guys knew this, but for 40 years, this was my hometown. Now I don't necessarily brag about that anymore. I'm, I live in Austin now. I'm a proud Texan, but I did grow up here actually out in the west suburbs. I got off the plane, I felt the cold air, and I almost turned around and said, Does this thing go back? Yeah. Cause I'm, I've, I've grown thin skin. It did not take me long. I, I like the warm, Come on, >>I'm the saying, I'm from California and I got off the plane Monday. I went, Whoa, I need a coat. And I was in Miami a week ago and it was 85. >>Oh goodness. >>Crazy. So you just flew in. Talk about what's going on, your take on, on Ansible. We've talked a lot with the community, with partners, with customers, a lot of momentum. The flywheel of the community is going around and round and round. What are some of your perspectives that you see? >>Yeah, absolutely. Well, let's you know, I'm gonna take a quick step back. We're entering an era where companies are gonna have to figure out how to do more with less. Okay? We've got exponential data growth, we've got more architectural complexity than ever before. Companies are trying to discern how to deal with many different environments. And just at a macro level, Red Hat is one of the companies that is almost certainly gonna be part of this multi-cloud hybrid cloud era. So that should initially give a lot of confidence to the buying group that are looking at how to automate their environments. You're automating workflows, but really with, with Ansible, we're focused on automating it, automating the network. So as companies are kind of dig out, we're entering this recessionary period, Okay, we're gonna call it what it is. The first thing that they're gonna look at is how do we tech our way out of it? >>I had a wonderful one-on-one conversation with ServiceNow ceo, Bill McDermott, and we saw ServiceNow was in focus this morning in the initial opening session. This is the integration, right? Ansible integrating with ServiceNow. What we need to see is infrastructure automation, layers and applications working in concert to basically enable enterprises to be up and running all the time. Let's first fix the problems that are most common. Let's, let's automate 'em, let's script them. And then at some point, let's have them self resolving, which we saw at the end with Project Wisdom. So as I see it, automation is that layer that enterprises, boards, technologists, all can agree upon are basically here's something that can make our business more efficient, more profitable, and it's gonna deal with this short term downturn in a way that tech is actually gonna be the answer. Just like Bill and I said, let's tech our way out of it. >>If you look at the Red Hat being bought by ibm, you see Project Wisdom Project, not a product, it's a project. Project Wisdom is the confluence of research and practitioners kind of coming together with ai. So bringing AI power to the Ansible is interesting. Red Hat, Linux, Rel OpenShift, I mean, Red Hat's kind of position, isn't it? Kind of be in that right spot where a puck might be coming maybe. I mean, what do you think? >>Yeah, as analysts, we're really good at predicting the, the recent past. It's a joke I always like to make, but Red Hat's been building toward the future. I think for some time. Project Wisdom, first of all, I was very encouraged with it. One of the things that many people in the market probably have commented on is how close is IBM in Red Hat? Now, again, it's a $34 billion acquisition that was made, but boy, the cultures of these two companies couldn't be more different. And of course, Red Hat kind of carries this, this sort of middle ground layer where they provide a lot of value in services to companies that maybe don't use IBM at, at, for the public cloud especially. This was a great indication of how you can take the power of IBM's research, which of course has some of the world's most prolific data scientists, engineers, building things for the future. >>You know, you see things like yesterday they launched a, you know, an AI solution. You know, they're building chips, semiconductors, and technologies that are gonna power the future. They're building quantum. Long story short, they have these really brilliant technologists here that could be adding value to Red Hat. And I don't know that the, the world has fully been able to appreciate that. So when, when they got on stage and they kind of say, Here's how IBM is gonna help power the next generation, I was immediately very encouraged by the fact that the two companies are starting to show signs of how they can collaborate to offer value to their customers. Because of course, as John kind of started off with, his question is, they've kind of been where the puck is going. Open source, Linux hybrid cloud, This is the future. In the future. Every company's multi-cloud. And I said in a one-on-one meeting this morning, every company is going to probably have workloads on every cloud, especially large enterprises. >>Yeah. And I think that the secret's gonna be how do you make that evolve? And one of the things that's coming out of the industry over the years, and looking back as historians, we would say, gotta have standards. Well, with cloud, now people standards might slow things down. So you're gonna start to figure out how does the community and the developers are thinking it'll be the canary in the coal mine. And I'd love to get your reaction on that, because we got Cuban next week. You're seeing people kind of align and try to win the developers, which, you know, I always laugh cuz like, you don't wanna win, you want, you want them on your team, but you don't wanna win them. It's like a, it's like, so developers will decide, >>Well, I, I think what's happening is there are multiple forces that are driving product adoption. And John, getting the developers to support the utilization and adoption of any sort of stack goes a long way. We've seen how sticky it can be, how sticky it is with many of the public cloud pro providers, how sticky it is with certain applications. And it's gonna be sticky here in these interim layers like open source automation. And Red Hat does have a very compelling developer ecosystem. I mean, if you sat in the keynote this morning, I said, you know, if you're not a developer, some of this stuff would've been fairly difficult to understand. But as a developer you saw them laughing at jokes because, you know, what was it the whole part about, you know, it didn't actually, the ping wasn't a success, right? And everybody started laughing and you know, I, I was sitting next to someone who wasn't technical and, and you know, she kinda goes, What, what was so funny? >>I'm like, well, he said it worked. Do you see that? It said zero data trans or whatever that was. So, but if I may just really quickly, one, one other thing I did wanna say about Project Wisdom, John, that the low code and no code to the full stack developer is a continuum that every technology company is gonna have to think deeply about as we go to the future. Because the people that tend to know the process that needs to be automated tend to not be able to code it. And so we've seen every automation company on the planet sort of figuring out and how to address this low code, no code environment. I think the power of this partnership between IBM Research and Red Hat is that they have an incredibly deep bench of capabilities to do things like, like self-training. Okay, you've got so much data, such significant size models and accuracy is a problem, but we need systems that can self teach. They need to be able self-teach, self learn, self-heal so that we can actually get to the crux of what automation is supposed to do for us. And that's supposed to take the mundane out and enable those humans that know how to code to work on the really difficult and hard stuff because the automation's not gonna replace any of that stuff anytime soon. >>So where do you think looking at, at the partnership and the evolution of it between IBM research and Red Hat, and you're saying, you know, they're, they're, they're finally getting this synergy together. How is it gonna affect the future of automation and how is it poised to give them a competitive advantage in the market? >>Yeah, I think the future or the, the competitive space is that, that is, is ecosystems and integration. So yesterday you heard, you know, Red Hat Ansible focusing on a partnership with aws. You know, this week I was at Oracle Cloud world and they're talking about running their database in aws. And, and so I'm kind of going around to get to the answer to your question, but I think collaboration is sort of the future of growth and innovation. You need multiple companies working towards the same goal to put gobs of resources, that's the technical term, gobs of resources towards doing really hard things. And so Ansible has been very successful in automating and securing and focusing on very certain specific workloads that need to be automated, but we need more and there's gonna be more data created. The proliferation, especially the edge. So you saw all this stuff about Rockwell, How do you really automate the edge at scale? You need large models that are able to look and consume a ton of data that are gonna be continuously learning, and then eventually they're gonna be able to deliver value to these companies at scale. IBM plus Red Hat have really great resources to drive this kind of automation. Having said that, I see those partnerships with aws, with Microsoft, with ibm, with ServiceNow. It's not one player coming to the table. It's a lot of players. They >>Gotta be Switzerland. I mean they have the Switzerland. I mean, but the thing about the Amazon deal is like that marketplace integration essentially puts Ansible once a client's in on, on marketplace and you get the central on the same bill. I mean, that's gonna be a money maker for Ansible. I >>Couldn't agree more, John. I think being part of these public cloud marketplaces is gonna be so critical and having Ansible land and of course AWS largest public cloud by volume, largest marketplace today. And my opinion is that partnership will be extensible to the other public clouds over time. That just makes sense. And so you start, you know, I think we've learned this, John, you've done enough of these interviews that, you know, you start with the biggest, with the highest distribution and probability rates, which in this case right now is aws, but it'll land on in Azure, it'll land in Google and it'll continue to, to grow. And that kind of adoption, streamlining make it consumption more consumable. That's >>Always, I think, Red Hat and Ansible, you nailed it on that whole point about multicloud, because what happens then is why would I want to alienate a marketplace audience to use my product when it could span multiple environments, right? So you saw, you heard that Stephanie yesterday talk about they, they didn't say multiple clouds, multiple environments. And I think that is where I think I see this layer coming in because some companies just have to work on all clouds. That's the way it has to be. Why wouldn't you? >>Yeah. Well every, every company will probably end up with some workloads in every cloud. I just think that is the fate. Whether it's how we consume our SaaS, which a lot of people don't think about, but it always tends to be running on another hyperscale public cloud. Most companies tend to be consuming some workloads from every cloud. It's not always direct. So they might have a single control plane that they tend to lead the way with, but that is only gonna continue to change. And every public cloud company seems to be working on figuring out what their niche is. What is the one thing that sort of drives whether, you know, it is, you know, traditional, we know the commoditization of traditional storage network compute. So now you're seeing things like ai, things like automation, things like the edge collaboration tools, software being put into the, to the forefront because it's a different consumption model, it's a different margin and economic model. And then of course it gives competitive advantages. And we've seen that, you know, I came back from Google Cloud next and at Google Cloud next, you know, you can see they're leaning into the data AI cloud. I mean, that is their focus, like data ai. This is how we get people to come in and start using Google, who in most cases, they're probably using AWS or Microsoft today. >>It's a great specialty cloud right there. That's a big use case. I can run data on Google and run something on aws. >>And then of course you've got all kinds of, and this is a little off topic, but you got sovereignty, compliance, regulatory that tends to drive different clouds over, you know, global clouds like Tencent and Alibaba. You know, if your workloads are in China, >>Well, this comes back down at least to the whole complexity issue. I mean, it has to get complex before it gets easier. And I think that's what we're seeing companies opportunities like Ansible to be like, Okay, tame, tame the complexity. >>Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree with you. I mean, look, when I was watching the demonstrations today, my take is there's so many kind of simple, repeatable and mundane tasks in everyday life that enterprises need to, to automate. Do that first, you know? Then the second thing is working on how do you create self-healing, self-teaching, self-learning, You know, and, and I realize I'm a little broken of a broken record at this, but these are those first things to fix. You know, I know we want to jump to the future where we automate every task and we have multi-term conversational AI that is booking our calendars and driving our cars for us. But in the first place, we just need to say, Hey, the network's down. Like, let's make sure that we can quickly get access back to that network again. Let's make sure that we're able to reach our different zones and locations. Let's make sure that robotic arm is continually doing the thing it's supposed to be doing on the schedule that it's been committed to. That's first. And then we can get to some of these really intensive deep metaverse state of automation that we talk about. Self-learning, data replication, synthetic data. I'm just gonna throw terms around. So I sound super smart. >>In your customer conversations though, from an looking at the automation journey, are you finding most of them, or some percentage is, is wanting to go directly into those really complex projects rather than starting with the basics? >>I don't know that you're, you're finding that the customers want to do that? I think it's the architecture that often ends up being a problem is we as, as the vendor side, will tend to talk about the most complex problems that they're able to solve before companies have really started solving the, the immediate problems that are before them. You know, it's, we talk about, you know, the metaphor of the cloud is a great one, but we talk about the cloud, like it's ubiquitous. Yeah. But less than 30% of our workloads are in the public cloud. Automation is still in very early days and in many industries it's fairly nascent. And doing things like self-healing networks is still something that hasn't even been able to be deployed on an enterprise-wide basis, let alone at the industrial layer. Maybe at the company's on manufacturing PLAs or in oil fields. Like these are places that have difficult to reach infrastructure that needs to be running all the time. We need to build systems and leverage the power of automation to keep that stuff up and running. That's, that's just business value, which by the way is what makes the world go running. Yeah. Awesome. >>A lot of customers and users are struggling to find what's the value in automating certain process, What's the ROI in it? How do you help them get there so that they understand how to start, but truly to make it a journey that is a success. >>ROI tends to be a little bit nebulous. It's one of those things I think a lot of analysts do. Things like TCO analysis Yeah. Is an ROI analysis. I think the businesses actually tend to know what the ROI is gonna be because they can basically look at something like, you know, when you have an msa, here's the downtime, right? Business can typically tell you, you know, I guarantee you Amazon could say, Look for every second of downtime, this is how much commerce it costs us. Yeah. A company can generally say, if it was, you know, we had the energy, the windmills company, like they could say every minute that windmill isn't running, we're creating, you know, X amount less energy. So there's a, there's a time value proposition that companies can determine. Now the question is, is about the deployment. You know, we, I've seen it more nascent, like cybersecurity can tend to be nascent. >>Like what does a breach cost us? Well there's, you know, specific costs of actually getting the breach cured or paying for the cybersecurity services. And then there's the actual, you know, ephemeral costs of brand damage and of risks and customer, you know, negative customer sentiment that potentially comes out of it. With automation, I think it's actually pretty well understood. They can look at, hey, if we can do this many more cycles, if we can keep our uptime at this rate, if we can reduce specific workforce, and I'm always very careful about this because I don't believe automation is about replacement or displacement, but I do think it is about up-leveling and it is about helping people work on things that are complex problems that machines can't solve. I mean, said that if you don't need to put as many bodies on something that can be immediately returned to the organization's bottom line, or those resources can be used for something more innovative. So all those things are pretty well understood. Getting the automation to full deployment at scale, though, I think what often, it's not that roi, it's the timeline that gets misunderstood. Like all it projects, they tend to take longer. And even when things are made really easy, like with what Project Wisdom is trying to do, semantically enable through low code, no code and the ability to get more accuracy, it just never tends to happen quite as fast. So, but that's not an automation problem, That's just the crux of it. >>Okay. What are some of the, the next things on your plate? You're quite a, a busy guy. We, you, you were at Google, you were at Oracle, you're here today. What are some of the next things that we can expect from Daniel Newman? >>Oh boy, I moved Really, I do move really quickly and thank you for that. Well, I'm very excited. I'm taking a couple of work personal days. I don't know if you're a fan, but F1 is this weekend. I'm the US Grand Prix. Oh, you're gonna Austin. So I will be, I live in Austin. Oh. So I will be in Austin. I will be at the Grand Prix. It is work because it, you know, I'm going with a number of our clients that have, have sponsorships there. So I'll be spending time figuring out how the data that comes off of these really fun cars is meaningfully gonna change the world. I'll actually be talking to Splunk CEO at the, at the race on Saturday morning. But yeah, I got a lot of great things. I got a, a conversation coming up with the CEO of Twilio next week. We got a huge week of earnings ahead and so I do a lot of work on that. So I'll be on Bloomberg next week with Emily Chang talking about Microsoft and Google. Love talking to Emily, but just as much love being here on, on the queue with you >>Guys. Well we like to hear that. Who you're rooting for F one's your favorite driver. I, >>I, I like Lando. Do you? I'm Norris. I know it's not necessarily a fan favorite, but I'm a bit of a McLaren guy. I mean obviously I have clients with Oracle and Red Bull with Ball Common Ferrari. I've got Cly Splunk and so I have clients in all. So I'm cheering for all of 'em. And on Sunday I'm actually gonna be in the Williams Paddock. So I don't, I don't know if that's gonna gimme me a chance to really root for anything, but I'm always, always a big fan of the underdog. So maybe Latifi. >>There you go. And the data that comes off the how many central unbeliev, the car, it's crazy's. Such a scientific sport. Believable. >>We could have Christian, I was with Christian Horner yesterday, the team principal from Reside. Oh yeah, yeah. He was at the Oracle event and we did a q and a with him and with the CMO of, it's so much fun. F1 has been unbelievable to watch the momentum and what a great, you know, transitional conversation to to, to CX and automation of experiences for fans as the fan has grown by hundreds of percent. But just to circle back full way, I was very encouraged with what I saw today. Red Hat, Ansible, IBM Strong partnership. I like what they're doing in their expanded ecosystem. And automation, by the way, is gonna be one of the most robust investment areas over the next few years, even as other parts of tech continue to struggle that in cyber security. >>You heard it here. First guys, investment in automation and cyber security straight from two analysts. I got to sit between. For our guests and John Furrier, I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching The Cube Live from Chicago, Ansible Fest 22. John and I will be back after a short break. SO'S stick around.

>>The cube presents, Coon and cloud native con Europe, 2022, brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >>Welcome to Licia Spain in Coon and cloud native con Europe, 2022. I'm Keith Townsend, along with my cohot Paul Gillon, who's been putting in some pretty good work talking to incredible people. And we have, I don't wanna call, heard the face of CNCF, but you kind of introduced me to, you don't know this, but you know, charmer executive director of CNCF. You introduced me to Kuan at Cuan San Diego's my one of my first CU coupons. And I was trying to get my bearings about me and you're on stage and I'm like, okay. Uh, she looks like a reasonable person. This might be a reasonable place to learn about cloud native. Welcome to the show. >>Thank you so much for having me. And that's so nice to hear >><laugh> it is an amazing show, roughly 7,500 people. >>Yes, that's right. Sold out >>Sold. That's a big show. And with that comes, you know, uh, so someone told me, uh, CNCF is an outstanding organization, which it, which it is you're the executive director. And I told them, you know what, that's like being the president of the United States without having air force one. <laugh> like you get home. I dunno >>About that. You >>Get, no, you get all of the, I mean, 7,500 people from across, literally across the world. That's true at Europe. We're in Europe, we're in, we're coming out of times that have been, you know, it can't be overstated. It, this, this is unlike any other times. >>Yes, absolutely >>Difficult decisions. There was a whole co uh, uh, I don't know the term, uh, uh, cuffa uh, or blow up about mask versus no mask. How do you manage just, just the diversity of the community. >>That is such a great question, because I, as I mentioned in my keynote a little bit, right? At this point, we're a community of what, 7.1 million developers. That's a really big group. And so when we think about how should we manage the diversity, the way I see it, it's essential to treat each other with kindness, professionalism, and respect. Now that's easy to say, right. Because it sounds great. Right. Old paper is awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Great >>Concept. 0.1 million people later. >><laugh> exactly. And so, uh, this is why like, uh, I phoned a friend on stage and, um, van Jones came and spoke with us. Who's the renowned CNN contributor, uh, commentator, sorry. And his advice was very much that in such a diverse community, there's always gonna be lots of perspectives, lots opinions. And we need to a always bring the version of ourselves, which we think will empower this ecosystem, BEC what are, what we are doing. If everybody did that, is that gonna be a good thing or a bad thing? And the other is we need to give each other space and grace, um, space to do what we need to do. Grace. If there are mistakes, if there are challenges. And so those are, those are some good principles for us to live by. And I think that in terms of how CNCF tries to enable the diversity, it's by really trying to hear from everybody possible, the vocal loud voices, as well as the folks who you need to reach out a little bit, pull in a little bit. So it's an ongoing, it's an ongoing challenge that we do our best with. >>How do you balance? And I've been to a lot of trade shows and conferences over the years, their trade organizers are very coin operated. You know, they're there, they're there for the money. Yeah. <laugh> and you have traditional trade shows and you have a situation here where an open source community that is motivated by very different, um, principles, but you need to make money. You need the show to be profitable. Uh, you need to sell some sponsorships, but you also need to keep it available and open to the people who, who don't have the big budgets. How are you balancing that? >>So I would actually like to, uh, share something that may not be obvious, which is that we don't actually do the shows to make money. We, um, as you said, like, uh, a lot of trade shows are coin up and the goal there is like, um, well actually they're different kinds of, I think if it's an independent event organization, it can be like, Hey, let's make as much revenue as possible. If it's part of a large, um, large company, like, like cloud provider, et cetera, the events tend to be lost leaders because they're like lead gen, I think, >>But they're, they're lost leaders, but they're profit makers ultimately >>Long term. Yeah. Yeah. It's like top of the funnel. I, I guess for us, we are only doing the events to enable the community and bring people from different companies together. So our goal is to try and break even <laugh> >>Well, that's, that's laudable. Um, the, how big does it get though? I mean, you're at the point with 7,500 attendees here where you're on the cusp of being a really big event, uh, would you limit it size eventually? Or are you just gonna let this thing run? Its course. >>So our inherent belief is that we want to be accessible and open to more and more and more people because the mission is to make cloud native ubiquitous. Right. Uh, and so that means we are excited about growth. We are excited about opening the doors for as everyone, but I think actually the one, one good thing that came out of this pandemic is that we've become a lot more comfortable with hybrid. So we have a virtual component and an in-person component. So combining that, I think makes it well, it's very challenging cause like running to events, but it's also like, it can scale a little bit better. And then if the numbers increase from like, if they double, for example, we're still, I think we're still not in the realm of south by Southwest, which, which feels like, oh, that's the step function difference. So linear increases in number of attendees, I think is a good thing. If, and when we get to the point where it's, um, you know, exponential growth at that point, we have to think about, um, a completely different event really. Right, >>Right. So 7 billion people in the world approaching 8 billion, 7.1 members in the community. Technology is obviously an enabler where I it's enabled me to, to be here and Licia Spain experiencing this beautiful city. There's so much work to be done. What mm-hmm <affirmative> what is the role of CNCF in providing access to education and technology for the rest of the world? >>Absolutely. So, you know, one of the key, uh, areas we focus on is learning and development in supporting the ecosystem in learners beginners to start their cloud native journey or expand their cloud native journey with training certifications, and actually shared this in the keynote every year. Uh, the increase in number of people taking certifications grows by 216% year over year growth. It's a lot, right? And every week about a thousand people are taking a certification exam. So, and we set that up primarily to bring people in and that's one of our more successful initiatives, but we do so many, we do mentorship programs, internship programs. We, uh, a lot of diversity scholarships, these events, it all kind of comes together to support the ecosystem, to grow >>The turning away from the events, uh, toward just toward the CNCF Brit large, you have a growing number of projects. The, the number of projects within CNCF is becoming kind of overwhelming. Is there an upper threshold at which you would, do you tighten the, the limits on, on what projects you will incubate or how big does that tent become? >>Right. I think, you know, when we had 50 projects, we were feeling overwhelmed then too, but we seem to have cop just fine. And there's a reason for that. The reason is that cloud native has been growing so fast with the world. It's a representative of what's going on in our world over the course of the pandemic. As you know, every company became a technology company. People had to like double their engineering staffs over without anybody ever having met in person mm-hmm <affirmative> right. And when that kind of change is going around the world cloud needing be being the scaffolding of how people build and deploy modern software just grew really with it. And the use cases we needed to support grew. That's why the types of projects and kinds of projects is growing. So there's a method. There's a reason to the madness I should say. And I think, um, as the world and, uh, the landscape of technology evolves cloud native will, will evolve and keep developing in either into new projects or consolidation of projects and everything is on the table. >>So I think one of these perceptions Riley Arone is that CNCF is kind of where the big people go to play. If you're a small project and you're looking at CNCF, you're thinking one day I'll get big enough. Like how should small project leaders or leaders of small projects, how should they engage CNCF? >>Totally. And, you know, I want to really change this narrative because, um, in CNCF we have three tiers of projects. There's the graduated ones, which are at the top. These are the most mature ones we really believe and put our sand behind them. They, uh, then there's the incubating projects, which are pretty solid technologies with good usage that are getting there. And then there's the sandbox, which is literally a sandbox and op open ground for innovation. And the bar to entry is low in that it's, uh, easy to apply. There's a mass boat to get you in. And once you're in, you have a neutral IP zone created by being a CNCF project that you can attract more maintainers, more companies can start collaborating. So we, we become an enabler for the small projects, so everybody should know that >>FYI. Yeah. So I won't be interested to know how that, so I have an idea. So let's say I don't have an idea, but let's say that idea have, >>I'm sure you have an idea. <laugh>, I'm >>Sure I have idea. And, and I just don't have the infrastructure to run a project. I need help, but I think it it's going to solve a pro problem. Yeah. What's that application process like, >>So, okay. So you apply after you already have let's a GitHub repo. Okay. Yeah. >>So you, I have a GI help repo. >>Yeah. As in like your pro you've started the project, you started the coding, you've like, put it out there on GitHub, you have something going. And so it's not at just ideal level. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, it's at like early stage of execution level. Um, and so, and then your question was, how do you apply? >>Yeah. So how do I, so I have, let's say that, uh, let, let's talk about something I'm thinking about doing, and I actually do, is that we're thinking about doing a open store, a cloud native framework for people migrating to the public cloud, to, or to cloud native. There's just not enough public information about that. And I'm like, you know what? I wanna contribute what I know to it. So that's a project in itself, not necessarily a software project, but a IP project, or let's say I have a tool to do that migration. And I put that up on my GitHub report. I want people to iterate on that tool. >>Right. So it would be a simple process of literally there is when you go to, um, our, uh, online, uh, materials, there's a simple process for sandbox where you fill a Google form, where you put in your URL, explain what you're doing, or some basic information hit submit. And we batch process these, um, about every once a month, I think. And, uh, the TC looks at the, what you've filled in, takes a group vote and goes from there. >>When about your operating model, I mean, do, do you, you mentioned you don't look to make a profit in this show. Do you look, and I wanna be sure CNCF is a non-profit, is that correct? Correct. Do you look, what models do you look at in determining your own governance? Do you look at a commercial business? Do you look at a nonprofit? Um, like of ourselves? Yeah. What's your model for how you run CNCF. >>Oh, okay. So it's a nonprofit, as I said, and our model is very simple. We want to raise the funds that we are able to raise in order to then invest them into community initiatives that play the supporter enabler role to all these projects we just talked about. We're not, we are never the project. We are the top cheerleader of the project. Think of us like that. And in terms of, um, but interestingly, unlike, I, I mean, I don't know much about other found, uh, nonprofit session compare, but interestingly, the donating companies are relevant, not just because of their cash that they have put in, but because those companies are part of this ecosystem and they need to, um, them being in this ecosystem, they help create content around cloud native. They, they do more than give us money. And that's why we really like our members, uh, they'll provide contributing engineers to projects. They will help us with marketing with case studies and interviews and all of that. And so it, it becomes this like healthy cycle of it starts with someone donating to become a member, but they end up doing so many different things. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and ultimately the goal is make cloud native ubiquitous and all this goes towards >>That. So talk to me about conflict resolution, because there's some really big projects in CNC, but only some stuff that is changed, literally changing the world, but there's competing interest between some of the projects. I mean, you, you, there there's, if you look at service mesh, there's a lot of service mesh solutions Uhhuh. Yes. And there's just different visions. Where's the CNCF and, and kind of just making sure the community aspect is thought across all of the different or considered across all the different projects as they have the let's say inevitably bump heads. >>Yeah. So by design CNCF was never meant to be a king maker where you picked one project. Right. And I think that's been working out really well because, um, one is when you accept a project, you're not a hundred percent sure that specific one is gonna take over that technology space. Right. So we're leaving it open to see who works it out. The second is that as every company is becoming a technology company, use cases are different. So a service mesh service mesh a might work really well for my company, but it really may not be a fit for your code base. And so the diversity of options is actually a really good thing. >>So talk to me about, uh, saw an interesting note coming out of the keynote yesterday, 65% of the participants here at CU con are new to Kuan. I'm like, oh, I'm a, I'm a vet. You are, I went to two or three before this. So O GE yeah, OG actually, that's what I tweeted OG of Kuan, but, uh, who, who are they like, what's making up? Are they developers? Are they traditional enterprises? Are they contributing companies? Who's the 65%, >>Um, who's the 65%, >>Right? The new, new, >>Well, it's all kinds of C companies sending their developers, right? It's sometimes there's a lot of them are end users. I think at least half or a third, at least of attendees are end user companies. And, uh, then there is also like the new startups around town. And then there is like the, every big company or small has been hiring developers as fast as possible. And even if they've always been a player in cloud native, they need to send all these people to this ecosystem to start building the relationships start like learning the technology. So it's all kinds of folks are collecting to that here. >>As I, as I think about people starting to learn the technologies, learn the communities, the one thing the market change for this coupon for me over others is the number of customers, sharing stories, end user organizations. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, mm-hmm, <affirmative> much of the cuon that I've been through many of the open source conferences. It's always been like vendors pushing their message, et cetera. What talk, tell me about that. C change. >>One thing that's like just immediate, um, and the case right now is that all the co-chairs for the event who are in charge of designing the agenda are end users. So we have Emily Fox from apple. We have Jasmine James from Twitter, and we have Ricardo Roka from se. So they're all end users. So naturally they're like, you know, picking talks that they're like, well, this is very relevant. Imma go for that and I'm here for it. Right? So that's one thing that's just happening. The other though is a greater trend, which is, as I was saying in the pandemic, so many companies has to get going and quickly that they have built expertise and users are no longer the passive recipients of information. They're equal contributors. They know what they need, what they want, they have experiences to share. And you're seeing that reflected in the conference. >>One thing I've seen at other conferences in the past that started out really for practitioners, uh, is that invariably, they want to go upscale and they wanna draw the CIOs and the, oh yeah. The, uh, you know, the executive, the top executives. Is that an objective, uh, for you or, or do you really want to keep this kind of a, a t-shirt crowd for the long term? >>Hey, everyone's welcome. That's really important, you know? Right. And, um, so we, and that's why we are trying to expand. It's like, you know, middle out as they had in the Silicon valley show the idea being, sorry, I just meant this a little. Okay. So the idea being that we've had the core developer crews, developer, DevOps, SRE crowd, right op over the course of the last virtual events, we actually expanded in the other direction. We put in a business value track, which was more for like people in the business, but not in as a developer or DevOps engineer. We also had a student thing where it's like, you're trying to get all the university crowd people, and it's been working phenomen phenomenally. And then actually this, this event, we went, uh, in the other direction as well. We hosted our inaugural CTO summit, which is for senior leadership and end user companies. And the idea is they're discussing topics of technology that are business relevant. So our topic this time was resiliency in multi-cloud and we're producing a research paper about it. That's gonna come out in some weeks. So BA so with, for us, it's about getting everybody under this tent. Right. And, but it will never mean that we deprioritize what we started with, which is the engineering crowd. It's just an expansion >>Stay true to your roots. >>Yes. Well, Prianca, we're going to talk to a lot of those startup communities tomorrow. Ah, tomorrow's coverage. It's all about startups. Why should CTOs, uh, new startups talk to these upstarts of as opposed to some of the bigger players here on the show floor, over 170 sponsoring companies, the show floor has been vibrant engaging. Yes. And we're going to get into that community tomorrow's coverage on the cube from Valencia Spain. I'm Keith Townson, along with Paul Gillon and you're watching the cube, the leader and high tech coverage.

>> From the theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis", with Dave Vellante. >> The recent security breach of an Okta third party supplier has been widely reported. The criticisms of Okta's response have been harsh, and the impact on Okta's value has been obvious, investors shaved about $6 billion off the company's market cap during the week the hack was made public. We believe Okta's claim that the customer technical impact was, "Near zero," may be semantically correct. However, based on customer data, we feel Okta has a blind spot. There are customer ripple effects that require clear action which are missed in Okta's public statements, in our view. Okta's product portfolio remains solid, it's a clear leader in the identity space. But in our view, one part of the long journey back to credibility requires Okta to fully understand and recognize the true scope of this breach on its customers. Hello, and welcome to this week's Wikibon "CUBE Insights", powered by ETR. In this "Breaking Analysis", we welcome our ETR colleague, Erik Bradley, to share new data from the community. Erik, welcome. >> Thank you, Dave, always enjoy being on the show, particularly when we get to talk about a topic that's not being well covered in the mainstream media in my opinion. >> Yeah, I agree, you've got some new data, and we're going to share some of that today. Let's first review the timeline of this hack. On January 20th this year, Okta got an alert that something was amiss at one of its partners, a company called Sitel, that provides low-level contact center support for Okta. The next day, Sitel retained a forensic firm to investigate, which was completed, that investigation was completed on February 28th. A report dated March 10th was created, and Okta received a summary of that from Sitel on March 17th. Five days later, Lapsus$ posted the infamous screenshots on Twitter. And later that day, sheesh, Okta got the full report from Sitel, and then responded publicly. Then the media frenzy in the back and forth ensued. So Erik, you know, there's so much wrong with this timeline, it's been picked apart by the media. But I will say this, what appeared to be a benign incident and generally has turned into a PR disaster for Okta, and I imagine Sitel as well. Who I reached out to by the way, but they did not provide a comment, whereas Okta did. We'll share that later. I mean, where do we start on this, Erik? >> It's a great question, "Where do we start?" As you know, our motto here is opinions only exist due to a lack of data, so I'm going to start with the data. What we were able to do is because we had a survey that was in the field when the news broke, is that we were able to observe the data in realtime. So we sequestered the data up until that moment when it was announced, so before March 23rd and then after March 23rd. And although most of the responses came in prior, so it wasn't as much of an end as we would've liked. It really was telling to see the difference of how the survey responses changed from before the breach was announced to after, and we can get into a little bit more- >> So let's... Sorry, sorry to interrupt, let's bring that up, let's look at some of that data. And as followers of this program know... Let me just set it up, Erik. Every quarter, ETR, they have a proprietary net score methodology to determine customer spending momentum, and that's what we're talking about here. Essentially measuring the net number of customers spending more on a particular product or platform. So apologize for interrupting, but you're on this data right here. >> Not at all. >> So take us through this. >> Yeah, so again, let's caveat. Okta is still a premier company in our work. Top five in overall security, not just in their niche, and they still remained extremely strong at the end of the survey. However, when you kind of look at that at a more of a micro analysis, what you noticed was a true difference between before March 23rd and after. Overall, their cumulative net score or proprietary spending intention score that we use, was 56% prior. That dropped to 44% during the time period after, that is a significant drop. Even a little bit more telling, and again, small sample size, I want to be very fair about that. Before March 23rd, only three of our community members indicated any indication of replacing Okta. That number went to eight afterwards. So again, small number, but a big difference when you're talking about a percentage change. >> Yeah, so that's that sort of green line that was shown there. You know, not too damaging, but definitely a noticeable downturn with the caveat that it's a small end. But here's the thing that I love working with you, we didn't stop there. You went out, you talked to customers, I talked to a number of customers. You actually organized a panel. This week, Erik hosted a deep dive on the topic with CISOs. And we have, if we could bring up that next slide, Alex. These are some of the top CISOs in the community, and I'm going to just summarize the comments and then turn it over to you, Erik. The first one was really concerning, "We heard about this in the media," ooh, ooh, ouch. Next one, "Not a huge hit, but loss of trust." "We can't just shut Okta off like SolarWinds." So there's definitely a lock in effect there. "We may need to hire new people," i.e, "There's a business impact to us beyond the technical impact." "We're rethinking contract negotiations with Okta." And bottom line, "It's still a strong solution." "We're not really worried about our Okta environment, but this is a trust and communications issue." Erik, these are painful to read, and in the end of the day, Okta has to own this. Todd McKinnon did acknowledge this. As I said at the top, there are domino business impacts that Okta may not be seeing. What are your thoughts? >> There's a lot we're going to need to get into in a little bit, and I think you were spot on earlier, when McKinnon said there was no impact. And that's not actually true, there's a lot of peripheral, derivative impact that was brought up in our panel. Before we even did the panel though, I do want to say we went out quickly to about 20 customers and asked them if they were willing to give an opinion. And it was sort of split down the middle where about, you know, half of them were saying, "You know, this is okay. We're going to stand by 'em, Okta's the best in the industry." A few were cautious, "Opinion's unchanged, but we're going to take a look deeper." And then another 40% were just flat out negative. And again, small sample size, but you don't want to see that. It's indicative of reputational damage right away. That was what led us to say, "You know what, let's go do this panel." And as you know, from reading it and looking at the panel, well, a lot of topics were brought up about the derivative impact of it. And whether that's your own, you know, having to hire people to go look into your backend to deal with and manage Okta. Whether it's cyber insurance ramifications down the road, there's a lot of aspects that need to be discussed about this. >> Yeah now, so before I go on... And by the way, I've spent a fair amount of time just parsing, listening very carefully to Todd McKinnon's commentary. He did an interview with Emily Chang, it was quite useful. But before I go on, I reached out to Okta, and they were super responsive and I appreciate that. And I do believe they're taking this seriously, here's a statement they provided to theCUBE. Quote, "As a global leader in identity, we recognize the critical role Okta plays for our customers and our customers' end users. Okta has a culture of learning and improving, and we are taking the steps to prevent this from happening again. We know trust is earned, and building back our customers' trust in Okta through our actions and our ongoing support as their secure identity partner is our top priority." Okay, so look, you know, what are you going to say, right? I mean, I think they do own it. Again, the concern is the blind spots. So we put together this visual to try to explain how Okta is describing the impact, and maybe another way to look at it. So let me walk you through this. Here's a simple way in which organizations think about the impact of a breach. What's the probability of a breach, that's the vertical axis, and what's the impact on the horizontal. Now I feel as though business impact really is the financial, you know, condition. But we've narrowed this to map to Todd McKinnon's statements of the technical impact. And they've said the technical impact in terms of things customers need to do or change, is near zero, and that's the red dot that you see there. Look, the fact is, that Okta has more than 15,000 customers, and at most, 366 were directly impacted by this. That's less than 3% of the base, and it's probably less than that, they're just being conservative. And the technical impact which Todd McKinnon described in an interview, again, with Emily Chang, was near zero in terms of actions the customers had to take on things like reporting and changes and remediation. Basically negligible. But based on the customer feedback outside of that 366, that's what we're calling that blind spot and that bracket. And then we list the items that we are hearing from customers on things that they have to do now, despite that minimal exposure. Erik, this is new information that we've uncovered through the ETR process, and there's a long list of collateral impacts that you just referred to before, actions that customers have to take, right? >> Yeah, there's a lot, and the panel really brought that to life even more than I expected to be quite honest. First of all, you're right, most of them believe that this was a minimal impact. The true damage here was reputational, and the derivatives that come from it. We had one panelist say that they now have to go hire people, because, and I hate to say this, but Okta isn't known for their best professional support. So they have to go get people now in to kind of do that themselves and manage that. That's obviously not the easiest thing to do in this environment. We had other ones express concern about, "Hey I'm an Okta customer. When I have to do my cyber insurance renewal, is my policy going to go up? Is my premium going to go up?" And it's not something that they even want to have to handle, but they do. There were a lot of concerns. One particular person didn't think the impact was minimal, and I just think it's worth bringing up. There was no demand for ransom here. So there were only two and a half percent of Okta customers that were hit, but we don't know what the second play is, right, this could just be stage one. And I think that there was one particular person on the panel who truly believes that, that could be the case, that this was just the first step. And in his opinion, there wasn't anything specific about those 366 customers that made him feel like the bad actor was targeting them. So he does believe that this might be a step one of a step two situation. Now that's a, you know, bit of an alarmist opinion and the rest of the panel didn't really echo it, but it is something that's kind of worth bringing up out there. >> Well, you know, it just pays to be paranoid. I mean, you know, it was reported that supposedly, this hack was done by a 16-year-old in England, out of his, you know, mother's house, but who knows? You know, other actors might have paid that individual to see what they could do. It could have been a little bit of reconnaissance, throw the pawn in there and see how, you know, what the response is like. So I want to parse some of Todd McKinnon's statements from that Bloomberg interview. Look, we've always, you and I both have been impressed with Okta, and Todd McKinnon's management. His decisions, execution, leadership, super impressive individual. You know, big fans of the company. And in the interview, it looked like (chuckles) the guy hadn't slept in three weeks, so really you have to feel for him. But I think there are some statements that have to be unpacked. The first one, McKinnon took responsibility and talked about how they'll be transparent about steps they're taking in the future to avoid you know, similar problems. We talked about the near-zero technical impact, we don't need to go there anymore. But Erik, the two things that struck me as communication misfires were the last two. Especially the penultimate statement there, quote, "The competitor product was at fault for this breach." You know, by the way, I believe this to be true. Evidently, Sitel was not using Okta as its identity access platform. You know, we're all trying to figure out who that is. I can tell you it definitely was not CyberArk, we're still digging to find out who. But you know, you can't say in my view, "We are taking responsibility," and then later say it was the competitor's fault. And I know that's not what he meant, but that's kind of how it came across. And even if it's true, you just don't say that later in a conversation after saying that, "We own it." Now on the last point, love your thoughts on this, Erik? My first reaction was Okta's throwing Sitel under the bus. You know, Okta's asking for forgiveness from its customers, but it just shot its partner, and I kind of get it. This shows that they're taking action but I would've preferred something like, "Look, we've suspended our use of Sitel for the time being pending a more detailed review. We've shut down that relationship to block any exposures. Our focus right now is on customers, and we'll take a look at that down the road." But I have to say in looking at the timeline, it looks like Sitel did hide the ball a little bit, and so you can't blame 'em. And you know, what are your thoughts on that? >> Well, I'll go back to my panelists again, who unanimously agreed this was a masterclass on how not to handle crisis management. And I do feel for 'em, they're a fantastic management team. The acquisition of Auth0 alone, was just such a brilliant move that you have to kind of wonder what went wrong here, they clearly were blindsided. I agree with you that Sitel was not forthcoming quickly enough, and I have a feeling that, that's what got them in this position, in a bad PR. However, you can't go ahead and fire your partner and then turn around and ask other people not to fire you. Particularly until a very thorough investigation and a root cause analysis has been released to everyone. And the customers that I have spoken to don't believe that, that is done yet. Now, when I ask them directly, "Would you consider leaving Okta?" Their answers were, "No, it is not easy to rip and replace, and we're not done doing our due diligence." So it's interesting that Okta's customers are giving them that benefit of the doubt, but we haven't seen it, you know, flow the other way with Okta's partner. >> Yeah, and that's why I would've preferred a different public posture, because who knows? I mean, is Sitel the only partner that's not using Okta as its identity management, who knows? I'd like to learn more about that. And to your point, you know, maybe Okta's got to vertically integrate here and start, you know, supporting the lower level stuff directly itself, you know, and/or tightening up those partnerships. Now of course, the impact on Okta obviously has been really serious, big hit on the stock. You know, they're piling on inflation and quantitative tightening and rate hikes. But the real damage, as we've said, is trust and reputation, which Okta has earned, and now it has to work hard to earn back. And it's unfortunate. Look, Okta was founded in 2009 and in over a decade, you know, by my count, there have been no major incidents that are obvious. And we've seen the damage that hackers can do by going after the digital supply chain and third and fourth party providers. You know, rules on disclosure is still not tight and that maybe is part of the problem here. Perhaps the new law The House just sent over to President Biden, is going to help. But the point, Erik, is Okta is not alone here. It feels like they got what looked like a benign alert. Sitel wasn't fully transparent, and Okta is kind of fumbling on the comms, which creates this spiraling effect. Look, we're going to have to wait for the real near-term and midterm impacts, but longterm, I personally believe Okta is going to be fine. But they're going to have to sacrifice some margin possibly in the near to midterm, and go through more pain to regain the loyalty of its customers. And I really would like to hear from Okta that they understand that customers, the impact of this breach to customers, actually does go beyond the 366 that were possibly compromised. Erik, I'll give you the final word. >> Yeah, there's a couple of things there if I can have a moment, and yes, Okta... Well, there was a great quote, one of the guys said, "Okta's built like a tank, but they just gave the keys to a 16 year old valet." So he said, "There is some concern here." But yes, they are best of breed, they are the leader, but there is some concern. And every one of the guys I spoke to, all CISOs, said, "This is going to come up at renewal time. At a minimum, this is leverage. I have to ask them to audit their third parties and their partners. I have to bring this up when it comes time." And then the other one that's a little bit of a concern is data-wise. We saw Ping Identity jump big, from 9% net score to 24% net score. Don't know if it's causative or correlated, but it did happen. Another thing to be concerned about out there, is Microsoft is making absolutely massive strides in security. And all four of the panelists said, "Hey, I've got an E5 license, why don't I get the most out of it? I'm at least going to look." So for Okta to say, you know, "Hey, there's no impact here," it's just not true, there is an impact, they're saying what they need to say. But there's more to this, you know, their market cap definitely got hit. But you know, I think over time if the market stabilized, we could see that recover. It's a great management team, but they did just open the door for a big, big player like Microsoft. And you and I also both know that there's a lot of emerging names out there too, that would like to, you know, take a little bit of that share. >> And you know, but here's the thing, I want to keep going here for a minute. Microsoft got hit by lapses, Nvidia got hit by lapses. But I think, Erik, I feel like people, "Oh yeah, Microsoft, they get hit all the time." They're kind of used to it with Microsoft, right? So that's why I'm saying, it's really interesting here. Customers want to consolidate their security portfolio and the number of tools that they have, you know. But then you look at something like this and you say, "Okay, we're narrowing the blast radius. You know, maybe we have to rethink that and that creates more complexity," and so it's a very complicated situation. But you know, your point about Microsoft is ironic, right. Because you know, when you see Microsoft, Amazon, you know, customers get hit all the time and it's oftentimes the fault of the customer, or the partner. And so it seems like, again, coming back to the comms of this, is that really is the one thing that they just didn't get right. >> Yeah, the biggest takeaway from this without a doubt is it's not the impact of the breach, it was the impact of their delay and how they handled it and how they managed it. That's through the course of 25 CISOs I've spoken to now, that's unanimous. It's not about that this was a huge damaging hit, but the damage really came from their reaction or lack thereof. >> Yeah, and it's unfortunate, 'cause it feels like a lot of it was sort of, I want to say out of their control because obviously they could have audited the partners. But still, I feel like they got thrown a curve ball that they really had a, you know, difficult time, you know, parsing through that. All right, hey, we got to leave it there for now. Thank you, Erik Bradley, appreciate you coming on, It's always a pleasure to have you >> Always good talking to you too, Dave, thanks a lot. >> ETR team, you guys are amazing, do some great work. I want to thank Stephanie Chan, who helps me with background research for "Breaking Analysis". Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight, help get the word out, as do some others. Alex Myerson on production, Alex, thank you. And Rob Hof, is our EIC at SiliconANGLE. Remember, all these episodes, they are available as podcasts. Wherever you listen, just search, "Breaking Analysis podcast." I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. Check out etr.ai, it's the best in the business for real customer data real-time, near real-time, awesome platform. You can reach out to me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com, or @DVellante, or comment on my LinkedIn post. This is Dave Vellante, for Erik Bradley, and "theCUBE Insights", powered by ETR. Thanks for watching, be well, and we'll see you next time. (bright music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome to theCUBE special presentation of Unstoppable Domains Partner Showcase. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE. We've got a great conversation talking about the future of the infrastructure of Web3, all around domains, non fungible tokens and more. Two great guests, Charlie Brooks with Business Development of Unstoppable Domains, and Michael Williams, Product Leader and Advisor with Unstoppable Domains. Gentlemen, thanks for coming on theCUBE, Partner Showcase with Unstoppable Domains. >> Thanks John, excited to be here. >> So I love what you guys are doing. Congratulations on all your success. You guys are on the leading edge of what is a major infrastructure. Shift to Web3 is being called, but people who have been doing this for a while know that you see the blockchain, you see decentralization, you see immutability all these future smart contracts. All the decentralized applications are now hitting the scene and NFTs are super hot as you can imagine, you guys in the middle of it. So you guys are in the sweet spot of what I call the Pragmatic pioneers. You guys are the building solutions that are making a difference, like single sign-on you have the login product, let's get into it. What is the path to a digital identity beyond the web? 'Cause we know what web identity is. But now that the web is being abstracted a away by this new Web3 layer, what is digital identity? >> I can take that one. So I think what we're really seeing is this transition away from a purely physical identity. Where your online identity is really just a reflection of the parts of your physical identity. Where you live, where you go to school, all of these things. And we're really seeing this world emerge where your online identity becomes much more of a primary. So if you have a way that you represent yourself in the online world, whether that's an Instagram account, or TikTok, or email address or username, all of these things together make up your digital identity. So congrats, if you have any of those things, you already have one. >> We see that all the time with Linktree, people put their Linktree out there and it's got the zillion handles. We all get up to Instagram. Everyone's got like zillion identities. Is that a problem or an opportunity? >> I think it's just a reality. The fact is our identities are spread across all of these different services and platforms that we use. The problem with something like Linktree is that it is owned by Linktree. If I won the lottery, purchased Linktree and decided I wanted to change your personal website, John, I could easily do that. Moving to the architecture that we have and NFT architecture, changes that significantly. It puts a lot of power back in the hands of the people who actually own those identities. I do a lot of CUBE showcases with folks around talking about machine learning and AI, and the number one conversation that they bring up, the number one issue, is data. And they say, when data's siloed and protected and owned, it is not optimized for machine learning. So I can almost imagine, as you bring NFTs to the digital identity, you mentioned you don't own your identity if someone else is managing the service like Linktree. This is a cultural shift, and infrastructure software shift at the same time. Can you guys expand more about what you guys are doing with the NFT and unstoppable domains with respect to that digital identity, because is that power shifting to the users now? And how does that compare to what's out there today? >> Sure, I think so. Our domains are NFTs, so they are ERC 721 tokens. And if you think about in the past Web2 identities are controlled by the platforms that we use. Twitter, Facebook, whatnot. There's really a lack of data portability there. Our accounts and data live on their servers, they can be deleted any time. So using an NFT to anchor your data identity, really gives you full control over your identity. It can't be deleted, it can't be revoked or edited, or changed without your permission. And really even better, the information you store on your entity domain can be plugged into the services you use, so that you never have to enter the same data twice. So when you go from platform to platform, everything can be tied to your existing domain. You're not going to a new site, entering their ecosystem and providing all this information time and time again, and not really having a clear understanding of how your data's being used and where it's being stored. >> So the innovation here is the NFT is your identity. And a non fungible token NFT is different than say a fungible token. So for the folks out there that's trying to follow the bouncing ball, Michael, what's the difference between an NFT and a fungible token? And why is that important for identity? >> My favorite metaphor here is baseball cards versus dollar bills. So a dollar bill is fungible. If I have a dollar and you have a dollar, we can trade dollars and none of us is richer or poorer. If I have a Babe Ruth and you have a Hank Aaron, and we swap baseball cards, we have changed something fundamental. So the important thing about NFTs is that they are non fungible. So if I have a domain and you have a domain, like I have that identity and you have that identity, they are unique, they're independent, they're owned by each one of us, and then we can't swap them interchangeably. >> And that's why you're seeing NFTs hot with art and artists, because it's like a property. It's a property issue, not so much- >> Absolutely >> Interchangeable or divisible kind of asset. >> Yep, it is ownership rights in digital form, yes. >> All right, so now let's get into what the identity piece. I think find that interesting because if I have something that's an NFT, it's non fungible, it's unique to me, it's property, my property my login, this sounds compelling. So how does login work with the NFT? Can you guys take us through that architecture, what does it do? How does it work? And what's the benefit? >> Good, so the way our login product works is it effectively uses your NFT domain. So Michael.crypto, for example, as the authentication piece of a login session. So basically when I go and I try to log in with my domain, I type in Michael.crypto, I sign it with my wallet which cryptographically proves that I am this human, this is me, I have the rights to log in. And then when I do so, I have the ability to share certain parts of my identity information with the applications that I use. So it really blends the ease of use from Web2 of just a standard like login with Gmail, SSO experience, with all of the security and privacy benefits of Web3. >> How important is single sign-on? Because right now people are used to seeing things like log with your GitHub handle or LinkedIn, or Google, Apple. You seeing people offering login. What's the difference here from those solutions and why does it make sense for the user? >> Sure, the big difference is what we're building is really user first. So if you think about traditional SSOs, you are the product. When you use their product, they're selling your data, they're tracking everything you do. Login with unstoppable handles not only authentication, but data sharing as well. So when you log in a domain owner can choose to share aspects of their online identities, such as first name, preferred language, profile picture, location. So this is a user controlled way of using a sign-on where their permissioning these different of their identity. And really apps can use this information to enable new experiences, such as, for example, website might automatically enable high contrast mode for someone visually impaired. It could pre-populate your friends from a decentralized social graph. So, what we're doing is taking the best parts of Web2 SSO and combining them with the best of Web3. So, no more losing your password, entering in the same data hundreds of times depending on other services to keep your information safe. Login with unstoppable really puts you in complete control of your data. And a big part of that is you're not going to have 80 plus usernames and passwords anymore. We have these tools like password managers that exist to put a bandaid on this issue, but it's not really a long term solution. So what we're building is really seamless onboarding where everything can be tied to your domains so that you can navigate to different apps in a much more seamless way. >> Michael, I got to get your thoughts on this because in the product side, it's interesting, my mind's connecting some dots. If I have first of all, great convenience to reduce all those logins. So, check their little pain reduction. But when you just think about what's different, I can now broker my data as well as login. So let's just say, hypothetically, I'm cruising around some dApps and I'm doing things in earning reputation, or attention, or points, or whatever utility tokens. There could be a way for me to control what I own. I'm the product, I own the data. Is that where this is going? >> I think it's definitely a direction it could go, say, for example, if I'm a e-commerce platform and I'm trying to figure out where I'm going to place a new billboard. One of the things that I could request from a user, is their address. I can figure out where they live, what city they're in, that will help inform me the decision that I need to make as a business. And in return, maybe I give that person a dollar off their purchase. We can start to build a stronger relationship between the applications that people use, and the people that use them. And try to optimize that whole experience, and try to just transfer information back and forth to make everyone's lives better. >> What's the roadmap on the business side Charlie, when you see companies adopting it, they're probably taking babies steps they're crawling before they walk, they're walking before they run. I can see decentralized applications in the future where there's FinTech or whatever, having new kinds of marketplaces that take advantage of the paradigm where the script flips to the user first. Okay, so I see that. How do people get started now? What are some of the success momentum points that you're seeing companies do now with unstoppable? >> Sure, so a lot of Web3 apps are very sensitive about respecting the information that their users are providing. So, what we're doing is offering different ways for apps can touch with their users in a way that is user controlled. So, an example there is that a lot of Web3 companies will use WalletConnect to allow users to log in using a wallet address. An issue there is that one person can have hundreds of wallet addresses, and it's impossible for the app to understand that. So, what we do is we use login, we attach an email address, some other pieces to a wallet address so that we can identify who our unique user is. And the app is able to collect that information, they don't have to deal with passwords or PII storage. They have access to a huge amount of new data for an improved UX. It's really simple to maintain as well. So one example there is if you are a DeFi platform and you want to reward your users for coming to their site for the first time, now that they can identify unique user, they can drop a token into that user's wallet. All because they're able to identify that user as unique. So they have a better way of understanding their customers. They enable their customers to share data. A lot of these companies will ask users to follow them on Twitter or Discord when they need to provide updates or bug bounties, all these different things. And login if unstoppable lets them permission email addresses so they can collect emails if they want to do a newsletter. And instead of harvesting data from elsewhere and forcing people to join this newsletter program, it's all user controlled. So each user saying, yes, you can use my email for your newsletter. I'm supporting your project, I want to be kept up to date with bugs or bounties or rewards programs. So really it's just a better way for users to share the data that they're willing to with dAPPs, and dAPPs can use it to create all sorts of incentives and really just understand their users on a different level. >> How is the development Michael, going on the smart contract side of the business? Ethereum has always been heralded as being very developer focused. There's been created innovations, you still got gas fees out there. You still got to do some things. How is the development environment? How are the applications coming? 'Cause I can see the flywheel kicking in as the developer front gets more streamlined, more efficient. And now you got the identity piece nailed down. I just see a lot of dominoes falling at the same time. What's the status on the DEV side. What you're doing. >> Good. The fascinating thing about crypto is how quickly it changes. When I joined Ethereum there was pretty reasonable still for transactions. It was very cheap to get things done very fast. With a look at last summer that things went completely out of control. This is a big reason that unstoppable for a long time has been working on a layer two. And we've moved over to the polygon as our primary source of record, which is built on top of Ethereum. Of course, I think saved well over a hundred million in gas fees for our users. We're constantly keeping an eye on new technologies that are emerging, weighing how we can incorporate those things. And really where of this industry is going to take us. In many ways we are just as much passengers as the other people floating around the ecosystem as well. >> It's certainly getting faster every day, I'm seeing a huge uptake on Ethereum. I heard a stat that most people at the university of California, Berkeley, 30% of the computer science students are dropping out to join Web3 companies. This goes to show you this cultural shift and you're going to see a lot more companies getting involved. So I got to ask you Charlie, on the BizDev front, how are companies getting started? What's the playbook? Are they putting their toe in the water? They jumping in full throttle? What's the roadmap? What's the best practice for people to get started with unstoppable? >> Absolutely. We're lucky that we get a lot of inbound interest from companies Web2 and Web3, because they first want to secure their domains. And we do a ton of work on the back end to protect trademark domains. We want to avoid squatting as much as possible. We don't think that's the spirit of Web3 at all. And certainly not what the original tension of the internet was. So, fair amount of companies will reach out to us to get their domain. And then we can have a longer conversation about some of the other integrations and ways we can collaborate. So certainly visiting our website, unstoppabledomains.com is a great starting point. We have an app submission page where apps can reach out to us, even request a grant. We have a grant program to help developers get started, provide them some resources to work with us and integrate some of our technology. We have great documentation as well on the site. So you can read all about what it takes to resolve domains, if you're a wallet and an exchange, as well as what it takes to integrate login with unstoppable, which is actually a super easy integration as well, which we're really excited about. So yeah, I'd say check out the website, apply for a grant if you think you're a fit there, then of course, people can always reach out to me directly on Twitter, on Telegram, email. We're very reachable and we're always happy to chat with projects and learn more about what they're doing. >> What's the coolest thing you see going on Charlie, with your partners right now? What's the number one use case that's cool that people are jumping on right now to get in and get some success out of the gate? >> Maybe GameFi play to earn is huge. It's blowing up and the gaming community is really passionate, vibrant, just expanding like crazy. Same with DeFi, there's all this cool new stuff you can do with DeFi where no matter how big your portfolio is, you're able to stake and use all these interesting tools to grow your book. So it's super exciting to see and talk to all these projects. And, there's certainly an energy in the community where everyone wants to onboard the general public to Web3. So we're all working on these school projects, but we need everyone to come over from Web2, understand the advantages of DeFi, of GameFi of having an entity domain. So, I'm lucky that I'm one of the first layers there of meeting new projects and helping get access to more users so that they can grow along with us. >> I remember the early days of Bitcoin and Ethereum, we were giving it away. The community mantra was, give a Bitcoin to someone. That was like, >> Right. >> When you can actually give a Bitcoin to someone. What's the word of mouth or organic viral? I won't say growth hack 'cause that's got negative connotations. But what's the community's way of putting forth the mission for unstoppable? Is it just more domains? You guys have any programs got going on? Is it give it away? Obviously you can get domains on your site, but what's the way to get people ingratiated in and getting comfortable? >> So much of what we do is really to solve that question, answer that question. We spend a ton of time and energy just on education and whether that's specifically around domains or just general Web3. We have a podcast which is pretty exceptional, which talks to Web3 leaders from across the space and makes the project that they're working on more accessible. I think we passed over a hundred episodes, not too long ago. There's a ton of stuff that we do that other people do. If anyone has questions, I'm happy to talk about our resources, of course. >> The pod, I think you guys are up to 117, but that's a deep dive. You guys go deep on the podcast. So that's where you go in. What else is new on digital identity? Where do you guys see the future going? Now that you get the baseline identity with the NFT. Makes a lot of sense, create innovation. Good logic, makes sense. Solid technically, what's next? >> I think this really boils down to the way that the internet has grown. Doesn't really feel like the way that the internet should be. Like our data shouldn't live in these wild gardens, controlled by these large companies. Ultimately people should be responsible for their own identities. They should have control over of things that they do online. The data that's shared, the benefit of that data. It's about the world that we are working towards, is very much that. Where we are giving people the ability to be paid for sharing their data with companies. We're giving applications the ability to request information from the people that use those applications to improve their experience. We're really just trying to make connections across the ecosystem through these products, to enable a better experience for everyone. So whether that's the use cases that I mentioned already, or maybe viewing reviews on something like Yelp or Amazon, that just confirm that the person that you are you're looking at is actually a real person, not some bot that's been paid to load a review. The interesting thing about these products is they're so universally applicable. There are so many different ways that we can try to plug them in. So we are- >> A bots is a great example, double-edged sword. You can have a metaverse image and have pre-programmed conversations with liquid audio and the video application. Or it's a real person. How do you know the difference? These are going to be questions around who solves that problem. Now there's time for bots and there's a time not for bots. We all know what happens when you get into the game of manipulation, but also it can be helpful. This is where you got to be smart. And identity's critical in this future. Charlie, what's your reaction to the future of digital identity? So much to look at here on the trajectory. >> I think a big part of it is data portability. If you go to a site like Instagram, you're giving them all this content that's very personal to you, and you can't just pack up and leave Instagram. So we want a future where most of these apps are just a front end and you can navigate from one to the other and bring your data with you. And not be beholden to the companies that operate centralized servers. So, I think data portability is huge and it's going to open up a lot of doors. And just going back to that thought on cleaning up Web2 for a better web three. When I think about the Amazons, the Yelps of the world, there are all these bots, there are all these awful fake reviews. There's a lot of gamification happening that is really just creating a lot of noise. And I want to bring transparency back to the internet where when you see a review, you should know that that's a real human. And blockchain technology is enabling us to do that. And certainly FT domains are going to play a huge part of that. So I think that having an experience where you know and trust the people that you're interacting with is going to be really powerful and just a better experience for everyone. And there's a lot of ramifications with that. politically speaking, we've all seen all the issues with attacking communities and using bots and fake accounts to hit people's pain points, it's sad and certainly not something that we want to see continue happening. So, whatever we can do to give people their digital identity and help people understand that this is a real person on the other end, I think is huge for the future of the internet and really for society as well. >> That's a great call out there Charlie. Cleaning up the mess of Web 2.0, Web2, actually it was 2.0 technically, now Web3 is no point zero in it. But I saw on or listened to the podcast with Matt. This recent one, he had a great metaphor that went back to when I was growing up in the internet, you had IP addresses. And the mess there was, you couldn't find what you want to look. And no one could remember what to type in, 'cause you could type in IP address in the browser back then. And then DNS came out and then keywords that's web. Now that mess, now is fraud, misinformation, bot manipulation, deep fakes, many other kind of unwanted time to innovate. And every year, every time you had these inflection points, there'd be an abstraction on top of it. So, similar thing happening here, is that how you guys see it too? >> I think we're going back to some of the foundational architecture of the internet, DNS. And really bringing that forward about 30, 40 years in terms of technology. So loading in some more cryptography and some other fancy things to help patch some of those issues from the previous versions of the web. >> Awesome. Well guys, thanks so much for coming on and the spirit of TikTok, Emily summarizes asking, can you guys give us a quick TikTok moment, short comment on where this is all going, where is login, single sign-on mean and what should people do to steps to secure their digital identity? >> Sure, I'll jump in here. So, it's time for people to secure their digital identity. The great first step is going to sample domains and getting an NFT domain. You can control your data. You can do a lot of cool different things with your domain, including posting your own website that you will own forever, no one can take it away from you. I would certainly recommend that people join our Discord, Telegram communities, check out our podcasts. It's really great especially if you're new to crypto Web3. We do a great job of explaining all the basic concepts and expanding on them. So yeah, I would say, the time is now to get your digital identity and start embracing Web3 because it's really exploding right now. And there's just so many incredible advantages, especially for the user. >> Michael, what's your take? >> But not, have said it better myself. >> Like we always say, if you're not on the next wave, you're driftwood. And this is a big wave that's happening. It's pretty clear guys, it's there, it's happening now. And again, very pragmatic implementations of solving problems. The sign-on, the app integration. Congratulations and we got our CUBE domain too, by the way. So I think we're good. >> Excellent. >> So, we got to put it to use. Appreciate it, Charlie, Michael, thanks for coming on and sharing the update. >> It's pleasure. >> Welcome. >> Okay, this is theCUBE, with Unstoppable Domains Partner Showcase I'm John for your host, got a lot of other great interviews. Check them out. We're going to continue our coverage and continue on with this great showcase. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>Welcome to the cube conversation here. I'm Sean ferry with the cube in Palo Alto, California. We've got two great guests here featuring armory who has with them Patrion open-source and talking open source and the enterprise. I'm your host, John ferry with the cube. Thanks for watching guys. Thanks for coming on. Really appreciate. I've got two great guests, Ben mapping, and SVP, a strategic partner in the armory and Ian Della horn, S staff SRE at Patrion gentlemen, you know, open source and enterprise is here and we wouldn't talk about thanks for coming. I appreciate it. >>Yeah. Thank you, John. Really happy to be here. Thank you to the Cuban and your whole crew. I'll start with a quick intro. My name is Ben Mappin, farmers founders, lead strategic partnerships. As John mentioned, you know, it all, it really starts with a premise that traditional businesses, such as hotels, banks, car manufacturers are now acting and behaving much more like software companies than they did in the past. And so if you believe that that's true. What does it mean? It means that these businesses need to get great at delivering their software and specifically to the cloud, like AWS. And that's exactly what armory aims to do for our customers. We're based on opensource Spinnaker, which is a continuous delivery platform. And, and I'm very happy that Ian from Patrion is here to talk about our journey together >>And introduce yourself what you do at Patriot and when Patrion does, and then why you guys together here? What's the, what's the story? >>Absolutely. Hi, John and Ben. Thanks for, thanks for having me. So I am Ian. I am a site reliability engineer at Patrion and Patrion is a membership platform for creators. And what we're our mission is to get creators paid, changing the way the art is valued so that creators can make money by having a membership relationship with, with fans. And we are, we're built on top of AWS and we are using Spinnaker with armory to deploy our applications that, you know, help, help creators get paid. Basically >>Talk about the original story of Ben. How are you guys together? What brought you together? Obviously patron is well-known in the creator circles. Congratulations, by the way, all your success. You've done a great service for the industry and have changed the game you were doing creators before it was fashionable. And also you got some cutting-edge decentralization business models as well. So again, we'll come back to that in a minute, but Ben, talk about how this all comes together. Yeah, >>Yeah. So Ian's got a great kind of origin story on our relationship together. I'll give him a lead in which is, you know, what we've learned over the years from our large customers is that in order to get great at deploying software, it really comes down to three things or at least three things. The first being velocity, you have to ship your software with velocity. So if you're deploying your software once a quarter or even once a year, that does no good to your customers or to your business, like just code sitting in a feature branch on a shelf, more or less not creating any business value. So you have to ship with speed. Second, you have to ship with reliability. So invariably there will be bugs. There will be some outages, but you know, one of the things that armory provides with Spinnaker open sources, the ability to create hardened deployment pipeline so that you're testing the right things at the right times with the right folks involved to do reviews. >>And if there is hopefully not, but if there is a problem in production, you're isolating that problem to a small group of users. And then we call this the progressive deployment or Canary deployment where you're deploying to a small number of users. You measure the results, make sure it's good, expand it and expand it. And so I think, you know, preventing outages is incredibly incredibly important. And then the last thing is being able to deploy multi target multi-cloud. And so in the AWS ecosystem, we're talking about ECS, EKS Lambda. And so I think that these pieces of value or kind of the, the pain points that, that enterprises face can resonate with a lot of companies out there, including ENN Patriot. And so I'll, I'll, I'll let you tell the story. >>Yeah, go ahead. Absolutely. Thanks. Thanks for the intro, man. So background background of our partnership with armory as back in the backend, February of 2019, we had a payments payments slowed down for payments processing, and we were risking not getting creators paid on time, which is a doc great for creators because they rely on us for income to be able to pay themselves, pay their rent or mortgage, but also pay staff because they have video editors, website admins, people that nature work with them. And there were, they're a very, there's a very many root causes to this, to this incident, all kind of culminate at once. One of the things that we saw was that deploying D point fixes to remediate. This took too long or taking at least 45 minutes to deploy a new version of the application. And so we've had continuous delivery before using a custom custom home built, rolling deploy. >>We needed to get that time down. We also needed to be secure in our knowledge of like that deploy was stable. So we had had to place a break in the middle due to various factors that that can happen during the deploy previously, I had used a Spinnaker at previous employers. I have been set it up myself and introduced it. And I knew about, I knew like, oh, this is something we could, this would be great. But the Patriot team, the patron SRE team at that time was two people. So I don't have the ability to manage Spinnaker on my own. It's a complex open-source product. It can do a lot of things. There's a lot of knobs to tweak a lot of various settings and stuff you need to know about tangentially. One of the co-founders of, of armory had been, had to hit, had hit me up earlier. I was like, Hey, have you heard of armory? We're doing this thing, opens our Spinnaker, we're packaging this and managing it, check us out if you want. I kind of like filed it away. Like, okay, well that might be something we can use later. And then like two weeks later, I was like, oh wait, this company that does Spinnaker, I know of them. We should probably have a conversation with them and engage with them. >>And so you hit him up and said, Hey, too many knobs and buttons to push what's the deal. >>Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I was, I was like, Hey, so by the way, I about that thing, how, how soon can you get someone get someone over here? >>So Ben take us through the progression. Cause that really is how things work in the open source. Open source is really one of those things where a lot of community outreach, a lot of people are literally a one degree or two separation from someone who either wrote the project or is involved in the project. Here's a great example. He saw the need for Spinnaker. The business model was there for him to solve. Okay. Fixes rolling deployments, homegrown all the things, pick your pick, your use case, but he wanted to make it easier. This tends to, this is kind of a pattern. What did you guys do? What's the next step? How did this go from here? >>Yeah. You know, Spinnaker being source is critical to armory's success. Many companies, not just pastry on open source software, I think is not really debatable anymore in terms of being applicable to enterprise companies. But the thing with selling open source software to large companies is that they need a backstop. They need not just enterprise support, but they need features and functionality that enable them to use that software at scale and safely. And so those are really the things that, that we focus on and we use open source as a really, it's a great community to collaborate and to contribute fixes that other companies can use. Other companies contribute fixes and functionality that we then use. But it's, it's really a great place to get feedback and to find new customers that perhaps need that enhanced level of functionality and support. And, and I'm very, very happy that Patrion was one of those companies. >>Okay. So let's talk about the Patrion. Okay. Obviously scaling is a big part of it. You're an SRE site, reliability engineers with folks who don't know what that is, is your, your job is essentially, you know, managing scale. Some say you the dev ops manager, but that's not really right answer. What is the SRE role at patriotics share with folks out there who are either having an SRE. They don't even know it yet or need to have SRS because this is a huge transition that, and new, new and emerging must have role in companies, >>Right? Yeah. We're the history of Patrion covers a lot. We cover a wide swath of a wide swath of, of, of things that we work with and, and areas that we consider to be our, our purview. Not only are we working on working with our AWS environment, but we also are involved in how can we make the site more reliable or performance so that, so that creators fans have a good experience. So we work with our content delivery numbers or caching strategies for caching caching assets. We work inside the application itself for doing performance performance, a hassle. This is also in proving observability with distributed tracing and metrics on a lot of that stuff, but also on the build and deploy side, if we can, if we can get that deploy time faster, like give engineers faster feedback on features that they're working on or bug fixes and also being secure and knowing that the, the code that they're working on it gets delivered reliably. >>Yeah. I think I, you have the continuous delivery is always the, the, the killer killer workflow as both the Spinnaker question here. Well, how has Spinnaker, well, what, how, how does Spinnaker being an open source project help you guys? I mean, obviously open source code is great. How has that been significant and beneficial for both armory and Patrion? >>Yeah, I'll take the first stab at this one. And it starts at the beginning. Spinnaker was created by Netflix and since Netflix open source that four or five years ago, there have been countless and significant contributions from many other companies, including armory, including AWS and those contributions collectively push the industry forward and allow the, the companies that, you know, that use open-source Spinnaker or armory, they can now benefit from all of the collective effort together. So just that community aspect working together is huge. Absolutely huge. And, you know, open source, I guess on the go-to-market side is a big driver for us. You know, there's many, many companies using open-source Spinnaker in production that are not our customers yet. And we, we survey them. We want to know how they're using open-source Spinnaker so that we can then improve open-source Spinnaker, but also build features that are critical for large companies to run at scale, deploy at scale, deploy with velocity and with reliability. >>Yeah. What's your take on, on the benefits of Spinnaker being open source? >>A lot of what Ben, it's been really beneficial to be able to like, be able to go in and look at the source code for components. I've been wondering something like, why is this thing working like this? Or how did they solve this? It's also been useful for, I can go ask the community for, for advice on things. If armory doesn't has the, it doesn't have the time or bandwidth to work on some things I've been able to ask the special interest groups in the source community. Like, can we, can we help improve this or something like that. And I've also been able to commit simple bug fixes for features that I've, that I've needed. I was like, well, I don't need to, I don't need to go engage are very on this. I can just like, I can just write up a simple patch on and have that out for review. >>You know, that's the beautiful thing about open sources. You get the source code and that's, and some people just think it's so easy, Ben, you know, just, Hey, just give me the open source. I'll code it. I got an unlimited resource team. Not, not always the case. So I gotta ask you guys on Patrion. Why use a company like armory, if you have the open source code and armory, why did you build a business on the open source project? Like Spinnaker? >>Yeah. Like I see. Absolutely. Yeah. Like I, like I said earlier, the atrium, the Patrion SRE team was wasn't is fairly small. There's two people. Now we're six. People are still people down. We're six people now. So being sure we could run a Spinnaker on our own if we, if we wanted to. And, but then we'd have no time to do anything else basically. And that's not the best use of our, of our creators money. Our fans, the fans being the creators artists. We have obviously take a percentage on top of that. And we, we need to spend our, that money well, and having armory who's dedicated to the Spinnaker is dedicated, involved the open source project. But also there are experts on this Sunday. It was something that would take me like a week of stumbling around trying to find documentation on how to set this thing up. They done this like 15, 20 times and they can just go, oh yeah, this is what we do for this. And let me go fix it for you >>At score. You know, you've got a teammate. I think that's where, what you're getting at. I got to ask you what other things is that free you up? Because this is the classic business model of life. You know, you have a partner you're moving fast, it slows you down to get into it. Sure. You can do it yourself, but why it's faster to go with it, go together with a partner and a wing man as we will. What things did does that free you up to work on as an SRE? >>Oh, that's freed me up to work on a bigger parts of our build and deploy pipeline. It's freed me up to work on moving from a usage based deploys onto a containerization strategy. It's freed me up to work on more broader observability issues instead of just being laser-focused on running an operating spending. >>Yeah. And that really kind of highlights. I'm glad you said that because it highlights what's going on. You had a lot of speed and velocity. You've got scale, you've got security and you've got new challenges you got to fix in and move fast. It's a whole new world. So again, this is why I love cloud native. Right? So you got open source, you got scale and you guys are applying directly to the, to the infrastructure of the business. So Ben, I got to ask you armory. Co-founder why did you guys build your business on an open source project? Like Spinnaker? What was the mindset? How did you attack this? What did you guys do? Take us through that piece because this is truly a great entrepreneurial story about open source. >>Yeah. Yeah. I'll give you the abridged version, which is that my co-founders and I, we solved the same problem, which is CD at a previous company, but we did it kind of the old fashioned way we home role. We handled it ourselves. We built it on top of Jenkins and it was great for that company, but, and that was kind of the inspiration for us to then ask questions. Hey, is this bigger? We, when at the time we found that Spinnaker had just been, you know, dog food inside of Netflix and they were open sourcing it. And we thought it was a great opportunity for us to partner. But the bigger reason is that Spinnaker is a platform that deploys to other platforms like AWS and Kubernetes and the sheer amount of surface area that's required to build a great product is enormous. And I actually believe that the only way to be successful in this space is to be open source, to have a community of large companies and passionate developers that contribute the roads if you will, to deploy into various targets. >>And so that's the reason, number one for it being open source and us wanting to build our business on top of open source. And then the second reason is because we focus almost exclusively on solving enterprise scale problems. We have a platform that needs to be extensible and open source is by definition extensible. So our customers, I mean, Ian just had a great example, right? Like he needed to fix something he was able to do so solve it in open source. And then, you know, shortly thereafter that that fix in mainline gets into the armory official build and then he can consume his fix. So we see a lot of that from our other customers. And then even, you know, take a very, very large company. They may have custom off that they need to integrate with, but that doesn't, that's not in open-source Spinnaker, but they can go and build that themselves. >>Yeah, it's real. It really is the new modern way to develop. And I, you know, last 80 with startup showcase last season, Emily Freeman gave a talk on, you know, you know, retiring, I call it killing the software, SDLC, the lifecycle of how software was developed in the past. And I got to ask you guys, and, and this cube conversation is that this is kind of like the, the kind of the big wave we're on now is cloud scale, open source, cloud, native data security, all being built in on this in the pipelines to your point is SRS enabling a new infrastructure and a new environment for people to build essentially SAS. So I got to ask you guys as, and you mentioned it Ben, the old way you hand rolled something, Netflix, open source, something, you got to look at Lyft with Envoy. I mean, large-scale comes, are donating their stuff into open source and people getting on top of it and building it. So the world's changed. So we've got to ask you, what's the difference between standing up a SAS application today versus say five to eight years ago, because we all see salesforce.com. You know, they're out there, they built their own data center. Cloud skills changed the dynamics of how software is being built. And with open-source accelerating every quarter, you're seeing more growth in software. How has building a platform for applications changed and how has that changed? How people build SAS applications, Ben, what's your take on this? It's kind of a thought exercise here. >>Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't even call it a thought exercise. We're seeing it firsthand from our customers. And then I'll, you know, I'll, I'll give my answer and you can weigh in on like practical, like what you're actually doing at Patrion with SAS, but the, the costs and the kind of entry fee, if you will, for building a SAS application has tremendously dropped. You don't need to buy servers and put them inside data centers anymore. You just spin up a VM or Kubernetes cluster with AWS. AWS has led the way in public cloud to make this incredible easy. And the tool sets being built around cloud native, like armory and like many other companies in the space are making it even easier. So we're just seeing the proliferation of, of software being developed and, and hopefully, you know, armory is playing a role in, in making it easier and better. >>So before we get to Unum for a second, I just want to just double down on it because there's great conversation that implies that there's going to be a new migration of apps everywhere, right. As tsunami of clutter good or bad, is that good or bad or is it all open source? Is it all good then? >>Absolutely good. For sure. There will be, you know, good stuff developed and not so good stuff developed, but survival of the fittest will hopefully promote those, the best apps with the highest value to the end user and, and society at large and push us all forward. So, >>And what's your take, obviously, Kubernetes, you seeing things like observability talking about how we're managing stateful and services that are being deployed and tear down in real time, automated, all new things are developing. How does building a true scalable SAS application change today versus say five, eight years ago? >>I mean, like you said, there's a, there's a lot, there's a lot of new, both open source. So SAS products available that you can use to build a scale stuff. Like if you're going to need that to build like secure authentication, instead of having to roll that out and you could go with something like Okta raw zero, you can just pull that off the shelf stuff for like managing push notifications before that was like something really hard to really hard to do. Then Firebase came on the scene and also for manic state and application and stuff like that. And also for like being, being able to deliver before >>You had Jenkins, maybe even for that, you didn't really have anything Jenkins came along. And then now you have open-source products like Spinnaker that you can use to deliver. And then you have companies built around that, that you can just go and say, Hey, can you please help us deliver this? Like you just help us, enable us to be able to build, build our products so that we can focus on delivering value to our creators and fans instead of having to focus on, on other things. >>So bill it builds faster. You can compose stuff faster. You don't have to roll your own code. You can just roll your own modules basically, and then exactly what prietary on top of it. Absolutely. Yeah. And that's why commercial open source is booming. Guys. Thank you so much, Ben, congratulations on armory and great to have you on from Patrion well-known success. So we'll accompany you congratulate. If we don't know patriarch, check it out, they have changed the game on creators and leading the industry. Ben. Great, great shot with armory and Spinnaker. Thanks for coming on. Thank you >>So much. Thank you >>So much. Okay. I'm Sean Ferrer here with the cube conversation with Palo Alto. Thanks for watching.

from the cube studios in palo alto in boston bringing you data driven insights from the cube and etr this is breaking analysis with dave vellante data mesh is a new way of thinking about how to use data to create organizational value leading edge practitioners are beginning to implement data mesh in earnest and importantly data mesh is not a single tool or a rigid reference architecture if you will rather it's an architectural and organizational model that's really designed to address the shortcomings of decades of data challenges and failures many of which we've talked about on the cube as important by the way it's a new way to think about how to leverage data at scale across an organization and across ecosystems data mesh in our view will become the defining paradigm for the next generation of data excellence hello and welcome to this week's wikibon cube insights powered by etr in this breaking analysis we welcome the founder and creator of data mesh author thought leader technologist jamaak dagani shamak thank you for joining us today good to see you hi dave it's great to be here all right real quick let's talk about what we're going to cover i'll introduce or reintroduce you to jamaac she joined us earlier this year in our cube on cloud program she's the director of emerging tech at dot works north america and a thought leader practitioner software engineer architect and a passionate advocate for decentralized technology solutions and and data architectures and jamaa since we last had you on as a guest which was less than a year ago i think you've written two books in your spare time one on data mesh and another called software architecture the hard parts both published by o'reilly so how are you you've been busy i've been busy yes um good it's been a great year it's been a busy year i'm looking forward to the end of the year and the end of these two books but it's great to be back and um speaking with you well you got to be pleased with the the momentum that data mesh has and let's just jump back to the agenda for a bit and get that out of the way we're going to set the stage by sharing some etr data our partner our data partner on the spending profile and some of the key data sectors and then we're going to review the four key principles of data mesh just it's always worthwhile to sort of set that framework we'll talk a little bit about some of the dependencies and the data flows and we're really going to dig today into principle number three and a bit around the self-service data platforms and to that end we're going to talk about some of the learnings that shamak has captured since she embarked on the datamess journey with her colleagues and her clients and we specifically want to talk about some of the successful models for building the data mesh experience and then we're going to hit on some practical advice and we'll wrap with some thought exercises maybe a little tongue-in-cheek some of the community questions that we get so the first thing i want to do we'll just get this out of the way is introduce the spending climate we use this xy chart to do this we do this all the time it shows the spending profiles and the etr data set for some of the more data related sectors of the ecr etr taxonomy they they dropped their october data last friday so i'm using the july survey here we'll get into the october survey in future weeks but about 1500 respondents i don't see a dramatic change coming in the october survey but the the y-axis is net score or spending momentum the horizontal axis is market share or presence in the data set and that red line that 40 percent anything over that we consider elevated so for the past eight quarters or so we've seen machine learning slash ai rpa containers and cloud is the four areas where cios and technology buyers have shown the highest net scores and as we've said what's so impressive for cloud is it's both pervasive and it shows high velocity from a spending standpoint and we plotted the three other data related areas database edw analytics bi and big data and storage the first two well under the red line are still elevated the storage market continues to kind of plot along and we've we've plotted the outsourced it just to balance it out for context that's an area that's not so hot right now so i just want to point out that these areas ai automation containers and cloud they're all relevant to data and they're fundamental building blocks of data architectures as are the two that are directly related to data database and analytics and of course storage so it just gives you a picture of the spending sector so i wanted to share this slide jamark uh that that we presented in that you presented in your webinar i love this it's a taxonomy put together by matt turk who's a vc and he called this the the mad landscape machine learning and ai and data and jamock the key point here is there's no lack of tooling you've you've made the the data mesh concept sort of tools agnostic it's not like we need more tools to succeed in data mesh right absolutely great i think we have plenty of tools i think what's missing is a meta architecture that defines the landscape in a way that it's in step with organizational growth and then defines that meta architecture in a way that these tools can actually interoperable and to operate and integrate really well like the the clients right now have a lot of challenges in terms of picking the right tool regardless of the technology they go down the path either they have to go in and big you know bite into a big data solution and then try to fit the other integrated solutions around it or as you see go to that menu of large list of applications and spend a lot of time trying to kind of integrate and stitch this tooling together so i'm hoping that data mesh creates that kind of meta architecture for tools to interoperate and plug in and i think our conversation today around self-subjective platform um hopefully eliminate that yeah we'll definitely circle back because that's one of the questions we get all the time from the community okay let's review the four main principles of data mesh for those who might not be familiar with it and those who are it's worth reviewing jamar allow me to introduce them and then we can discuss a bit so a big frustration i hear constantly from practitioners is that the data teams don't have domain context the data team is separated from the lines of business and as a result they have to constantly context switch and as such there's a lack of alignment so principle number one is focused on putting end-to-end data ownership in the hands of the domain or what i would call the business lines the second principle is data as a product which does cause people's brains to hurt sometimes but it's a key component and if you start sort of thinking about it you'll and talking to people who have done it it actually makes a lot of sense and this leads to principle number three which is a self-serve data infrastructure which we're going to drill into quite a bit today and then the question we always get is when we introduce data meshes how to enforce governance in a federated model so let me bring up a more detailed slide jamar with the dependencies and ask you to comment please sure but as you said the the really the root cause we're trying to address is the siloing of the data external to where the action happens where the data gets produced where the data needs to be shared when the data gets used right in the context of the business so it's about the the really the root cause of the centralization gets addressed by distribution of the accountability end to end back to the domains and these domains this distribution of accountability technical accountability to the domains have already happened in the last you know decade or so we saw the transition from you know one general i.t addressing all of the needs of the organization to technology groups within the itu or even outside of the iit aligning themselves to build applications and services that the different business units need so what data mesh does it just extends that model and say okay we're aligning business with the tech and data now right so both application of the data in ml or inside generation in the domains related to the domain's needs as well as sharing the data that the domains are generating with the rest of the organization but the moment you do that then you have to solve other problems that may arise and that you know gives birth to the second principle which is about um data as a product as a way of preventing data siloing happening within the domain so changing the focus of the domains that are now producing data from i'm just going to create that data i collect for myself and that satisfy my needs to in fact the responsibility of domain is to share the data as a product with all of the you know wonderful characteristics that a product has and i think that leads to really interesting architectural and technical implications of what actually constitutes state has a product and we can have a separate conversation but once you do that then that's the point in the conversation that cio says well how do i even manage the cost of operation if i decentralize you know building and sharing data to my technical teams to my application teams do i need to go and hire another hundred data engineers and i think that's the role of a self-serve data platform in a way that it enables and empowers generalist technologies that we already have in the technical domains the the majority population of our developers these days right so the data platform attempts to mobilize the generalist technologies to become data producers to become data consumers and really rethink what tools these people need um and the last last principle so data platform is really to giving autonomy to domain teams and empowering them and reducing the cost of ownership of the data products and finally as you mentioned the question around how do i still assure that these different data products are interoperable are secure you know respecting privacy now in a decentralized fashion right when we are respecting the sovereignty or the domain ownership of um each domain and that leads to uh this idea of both from operational model um you know applying some sort of a federation where the domain owners are accountable for interoperability of their data product they have incentives that are aligned with global harmony of the data mesh as well as from the technology perspective thinking about this data is a product with a new lens with a lens that all of those policies that need to be respected by these data products such as privacy such as confidentiality can we encode these policies as computational executable units and encode them in every data product so that um we get automation we get governance through automation so that's uh those that's the relationship the complex relationship between the four principles yeah thank you for that i mean it's just a couple of points there's so many important points in there but the idea of the silos and the data as a product sort of breaking down those cells because if you have a product and you want to sell more of it you make it discoverable and you know as a p l manager you put it out there you want to share it as opposed to hide it and then you know this idea of managing the cost you know number three where people say well centralize and and you can be more efficient but that but that essentially was the the failure in your other point related point is generalist versus specialist that's kind of one of the failures of hadoop was you had these hyper specialist roles emerge and and so you couldn't scale and so let's talk about the goals of data mesh for a moment you've said that the objective is to extend exchange you call it a new unit of value between data producers and data consumers and that unit of value is a data product and you've stated that a goal is to lower the cognitive load on our brains i love this and simplify the way in which data are presented to both producers and consumers and doing so in a self-serve manner that eliminates the tapping on the shoulders or emails or raising tickets so how you know i'm trying to understand how data should be used etc so please explain why this is so important and how you've seen organizations reduce the friction across the data flows and the interconnectedness of things like data products across the company yeah i mean this is important um as you mentioned you know initially when this whole idea of a data-driven innovation came to exist and we needed all sorts of you know technology stacks we we centralized um creation of the data and usage of the data and that's okay when you first get started with where the expertise and knowledge is not yet diffused and it's only you know the privilege of a very few people in the organization but as we move to a data driven um you know innovation cycle in the organization as we learn how data can unlock new new programs new models of experience new products then it's really really important as you mentioned to get the consumers and producers talk to each other directly without a broker in the middle because even though that having that centralized broker could be a cost-effective model but if you if we include uh the cost of missed opportunity for something that we could have innovated well we missed that opportunity because of months of looking for the right data then that cost parented the cost benefit parameters and formula changes so um so to to have that innovation um really embedded data-driven innovation embedded into every domain every team we need to enable a model where the producer can directly peer-to-peer discover the data uh use it understand it and use it so the litmus test for that would be going from you know a hypothesis that you know as a data scientist i think there is a pattern and there is an insight in um you know in in the customer behavior that if i have access to all of the different informations about the customer all of the different touch points i might be able to discover that pattern and personalize the experience of my customer the liquid stuff is going from that hypothesis to finding all of the different sources be able to understanding and be able to connect them um and then turn them them into you know training of my machine learning and and the rest is i guess known as an intelligent product got it thank you so i i you know a lot of what we do here in breaking it house is we try to curate and then point people to new resources so we will have some additional resources because this this is not superficial uh what you and your colleagues in the community are creating but but so i do want to you know curate some of the other material that you had so if i bring up this next chart the left-hand side is a curated description both sides of your observations of most of the monolithic data platforms they're optimized for control they serve a centralized team that has hyper-specialized roles as we talked about the operational stacks are running running enterprise software they're on kubernetes and the microservices are isolated from let's say the spark clusters you know which are managing the analytical data etc whereas the data mesh proposes much greater autonomy and the management of code and data pipelines and policy as independent entities versus a single unit and you've made this the point that we have to enable generalists to borrow from so many other examples in the in the industry so it's an architecture based on decentralized thinking that can really be applied to any domain really domain agnostic in a way yes and i think if i pick one key point from that diagram is really um or that comparison is the um the the the data platforms or the the platform capabilities need to present a continuous experience from an application developer building an application that generates some data let's say i have an e-commerce application that generates some data to the data product that now presents and shares that data as as temporal immutable facts that can be used for analytics to the data scientist that uses that data to personalize the experience to the deployment of that ml model now back to that e-commerce application so if we really look at this continuous journey um the walls between these separate platforms that we have built needs to come down the platforms underneath that generate you know that support the operational systems versus supported data platforms versus supporting the ml models they need to kind of play really nicely together because as a user i'll probably fall off the cliff every time i go through these stages of this value stream um so then the interoperability of our data solutions and operational solutions need to increase drastically because so far we've got away with running operational systems an application on one end of the organization running and data analytics in another and build a spaghetti pipeline to you know connect them together neither of the ends are happy i hear from data scientists you know data analyst pointing finger at the application developer saying you're not developing your database the right way and application point dipping you're saying my database is for running my application it wasn't designed for sharing analytical data so so we've got to really what data mesh as a mesh tries to do is bring these two world together closer because and then the platform itself has to come closer and turn into a continuous set of you know services and capabilities as opposed to this disjointed big you know isolated stacks very powerful observations there so we want to dig a little bit deeper into the platform uh jamar can have you explain your thinking here because it's everybody always goes to the platform what do i do with the infrastructure what do i do so you've stressed the importance of interfaces the entries to and the exits from the platform and you've said you use a particular parlance to describe it and and this chart kind of shows what you call the planes not layers the planes of the platform it's complicated with a lot of connection points so please explain these planes and how they fit together sure i mean there was a really good point that you started with that um when we think about capabilities or that enables build of application builds of our data products build their analytical solutions usually we jump too quickly to the deep end of the actual implementation of these technologies right do i need to go buy a data catalog or do i need you know some sort of a warehouse storage and what i'm trying to kind of elevate us up and out is to to to force us to think about interfaces and apis the experiences that the platform needs to provide to run this secure safe trustworthy you know performance mesh of data products and if you focus on then the interfaces the implementation underneath can swap out right you can you can swap one for the other over time so that's the purpose of like having those lollipops and focusing and emphasizing okay what is the interface that provides a certain capability like the storage like the data product life cycle management and so on the purpose of the planes the mesh experience playing data product expense utility plan is really giving us a language to classify different set of interfaces and capabilities that play nicely together to provide that cohesive journey of a data product developer data consumer so then the three planes are really around okay at the bottom layer we have a lot of utilities we have that mad mac turks you know kind of mad data tooling chart so we have a lot of utilities right now they they manage workflow management you know they they do um data processing you've got your spark link you've got your storage you've got your lake storage you've got your um time series of storage you've got a lot of tooling at that level but the layer that we kind of need to imagine and build today we don't buy yet as as long as i know is this linger that allows us to uh exchange that um unit of value right to build and manage these data products so so the language and the apis and interface of this product data product experience plan is not oh i need this storage or i need that you know workflow processing is that i have a data product it needs to deliver certain types of data so i need to be able to model my data it needs to as part of this data product i need to write some processing code that keeps this data constantly alive because it's receiving you know upstream let's say user interactions with a website and generating the profile of my user so i need to be able to to write that i need to serve the data i need to keep the data alive and i need to provide a set of slos and guarantees for my data so that good documentation so that some you know someone who comes to data product knows but what's the cadence of refresh what's the retention of the data and a lot of other slos that i need to provide and finally i need to be able to enforce and guarantee certain policies in terms of access control privacy encryption and so on so as a data product developer i just work with this unit a complete autonomous self-contained unit um and the platform should give me ways of provisioning this unit and testing this unit and so on that's why kind of i emphasize on the experience and of course we're not dealing with one or two data product we're dealing with a mesh of data products so at the kind of mesh level experience we need a set of capabilities and interfaces to be able to search the mesh for the right data to be able to explore the knowledge graph that emerges from this interconnection of data products need to be able to observe the mesh for any anomalies did we create one of these giant master data products that all the data goes into and all the data comes out of how we found ourselves the bottlenecks to be able to kind of do those level machine level capabilities we need to have a certain level of apis and interfaces and once we decide and decide what constitutes that to satisfy this mesh experience then we can step back and say okay now what sort of a tool do i need to build or buy to satisfy them and that's that is not what the data community or data part of our organizations used to i think traditionally we're very comfortable with buying a tool and then changing the way we work to serve to serve the tool and this is slightly inverse to that model that we might be comfortable with right and pragmatists will will to tell you people who've implemented data match they'll tell you they spent a lot of time on figuring out data as a product and the definitions there the organizational the getting getting domain experts to actually own the data and and that's and and they will tell you look the technology will come and go and so to your point if you have those lollipops and those interfaces you'll be able to evolve because we know one thing's for sure in this business technology is going to change um so you you had some practical advice um and i wanted to discuss that for those that are thinking about data mesh i scraped this slide from your presentation that you made and and by the way we'll put links in there your colleague emily who i believe is a data scientist had some really great points there as well that that practitioners should dig into but you made a couple of points that i'd like you to summarize and to me that you know the big takeaway was it's not a one and done this is not a 60-day project it's a it's a journey and i know that's kind of cliche but it's so very true here yes um this was a few starting points for um people who are embarking on building or buying the platform that enables the people enables the mesh creation so it was it was a bit of a focus on kind of the platform angle and i think the first one is what we just discussed you know instead of thinking about mechanisms that you're building think about the experiences that you're enabling uh identify who are the people like what are the what is the persona of data scientists i mean data scientist has a wide range of personas or did a product developer the same what is the persona i need to develop today or enable empower today what skill sets do they have and and so think about experience as mechanisms i think we are at this really magical point i mean how many times in our lifetime we come across a complete blanks you know kind of white space to a degree to innovate so so let's take that opportunity and use a bit of a creativity while being pragmatic of course we need solutions today or yesterday but but still think about the experiences not not mechanisms that you need to buy so that was kind of the first step and and the nice thing about that is that there is an evolutionary there is an iterative path to maturity of your data mesh i mean if you start with thinking about okay which are the initial use cases i need to enable what are the data products that those use cases depend on that we need to unlock and what is the persona of my or general skill set of my data product developer what are the interfaces i need to enable you can start with the simplest possible platform for your first two use cases and then think about okay the next set of data you know data developers they have a different set of needs maybe today i just enable the sql-like querying of the data tomorrow i enable the data scientists file based access of the data the day after i enable the streaming aspect so so have this evolutionary kind of path ahead of you and don't think that you have to start with building out everything i mean one of the things we've done is taking this harvesting approach that we work collaboratively with those technical cross-functional domains that are building the data products and see how they are using those utilities and harvesting what they are building as the solutions for themselves back into the back into the platform but at the end of the day we have to think about mobilization of the large you know largest population of technologies we have we'd have to think about diffusing the technology and making it available and accessible by the generous technologies that you know and we've come a long way like we've we've gone through these sort of paradigm shifts in terms of mobile development in terms of functional programming in terms of cloud operation it's not that we are we're struggling with learning something new but we have to learn something that works nicely with the rest of the tooling that we have in our you know toolbox right now so so again put that generalist as the uh as one of your center personas not the only person of course we will have specialists of course we will always have data scientists specialists but any problem that can be solved as a general kind of engineering problem and i think there's a lot of aspects of data michigan that can be just a simple engineering problem um let's just approach it that way and then create the tooling um to empower those journalists great thank you so listen i've i've been around a long time and so as an analyst i've seen many waves and we we often say language matters um and so i mean i've seen it with the mainframe language it was different than the pc language it's different than internet different than cloud different than big data et cetera et cetera and so we have to evolve our language and so i was going to throw a couple things out here i often say data is not the new oil because because data doesn't live by the laws of scarcity we're not running out of data but i get the analogy it's powerful it powered the industrial economy but it's it's it's bigger than that what do you what do you feel what do you think when you hear the data is the new oil yeah i don't respond to those data as the gold or oil or whatever scarce resource because as you said it evokes a very different emotion it doesn't evoke the emotion of i want to use this i want to utilize it feels like i need to kind of hide it and collect it and keep it to myself and not share it with anyone it doesn't evoke that emotion of sharing i really do think that data and i with it with a little asterisk and i think the definition of data changes and that's why i keep using the language of data product or data quantum data becomes the um the most important essential element of existence of uh computation what do i mean by that i mean that you know a lot of applications that we have written so far are based on logic imperative logic if this happens do that and else do the other and we're moving to a world where those applications generating data that we then look at and and the data that's generated becomes the source the patterns that we can exploit to build our applications as in you know um curate the weekly playlist for dave every monday based on what he has listened to and the you know other people has listened to based on his you know profile so so we're moving to the world that is not so much about applications using the data necessarily to run their businesses that data is really truly is the foundational building block for the applications of the future and then i think in that we need to rethink the definition of the data and maybe that's for a different conversation but that's that's i really think we have to converge the the processing that the data together the substance substance and the processing together to have a unit that is uh composable reusable trustworthy and that's that's the idea behind the kind of data product as an atomic unit of um what we build from future solutions got it now something else that that i heard you say or read that really struck me because it's another sort of often stated phrase which is data is you know our most valuable asset and and you push back a little bit on that um when you hear people call data and asset people people said often have said they think data should be or will eventually be listed as an asset on the balance sheet and i i in hearing what you said i thought about that i said well you know maybe data as a product that's an income statement thing that's generating revenue or it's cutting costs it's not necessarily because i don't share my my assets with people i don't make them discoverable add some color to this discussion i think so i think it's it's actually interesting you mentioned that because i read the new policy in china that cfos actually have a line item around the data that they capture we don't have to go to the political conversation around authoritarian of um collecting data and the power that that creates and the society that leads to but that aside that big conversation little conversation aside i think you're right i mean the data as an asset generates a different behavior it's um it creates different performance metrics that we would measure i mean before conversation around data mesh came to you know kind of exist we were measuring the success of our data teams by the terabytes of data they were collecting by the thousands of tables that they had you know stamped as golden data none of that leads to necessarily there's no direct line i can see between that and actually the value that data generated but if we invert that so that's why i think it's rather harmful because it leads to the wrong measures metrics to measure for success so if you invert that to a bit of a product thinking or something that you share to delight the experience of users your measures are very different your measures are the the happiness of the user they decrease lead time for them to actually use and get value out of it they're um you know the growth of the population of the users so it evokes a very different uh kind of behavior and success metrics i do say if if i may that i probably come back and regret the choice of word around product one day because of the monetization aspect of it but maybe there is a better word to use but but that's the best i think we can use at this point in time why do you say that jamar because it's too directly related to monetization that has a negative connotation or it might might not apply in things like healthcare or you know i think because if we want to take your shortcuts and i remember this conversation years back that people think that the reason to you know kind of collect data or have data so that we can sell it you know it's just the monetization of the data and we have this idea of the data market places and so on and i think that is actually the least valuable um you know outcome that we can get from thinking about data as a product that direct cell an exchange of data as a monetary you know exchange of value so so i think that might redirect our attention to something that really matters which is um enabling using data for generating ultimately value for people for the customers for the organizations for the partners as opposed to thinking about it as a unit of exchange for for money i love data as a product i think you were your instinct was was right on and i think i'm glad you brought that up because because i think people misunderstood you know in the last decade data as selling data directly but you really what you're talking about is using data as a you know ingredient to actually build a product that has value and value either generate revenue cut costs or help with a mission like it could be saving lives but in some way for a commercial company it's about the bottom line and that's just the way it is so i i love data as a product i think it's going to stick so one of the other things that struck me in one of your webinars was one of the q a one of the questions was can i finally get rid of my data warehouse so i want to talk about the data warehouse the data lake jpmc used that term the data lake which some people don't like i know john furrier my business partner doesn't like that term but the data hub and one of the things i've learned from sort of observing your work is that whether it's a data lake a data warehouse data hub data whatever it's it should be a discoverable node on the mesh it really doesn't matter the the technology what are your your thoughts on that yeah i think the the really shift is from a centralized data warehouse to data warehouse where it fits so i think if you just cross that centralized piece uh we are all in agreement that data warehousing provides you know interesting and capable interesting capabilities that are still required perhaps as a edge node of the mesh that is optimizing for certain queries let's say financial reporting and we still want to direct a fair bit of data into a node that is just for those financial reportings and it requires the precision and the um you know the speed of um operation that the warehouse technology provides so i think um definitely that technology has a place where it falls apart is when you want to have a warehouse to rule you know all of your data and model canonically model your data because um it you have to put so much energy into you know kind of try to harness this model and create this very complex the complex and fragile snowflake schemas and so on that that's all you do you spend energy against the entropy of your organization to try to get your arms around this model and the model is constantly out of step with what's happening in reality because reality the model the reality of the business is moving faster than our ability to model everything into into uh into one you know canonical representation i think that's the one we need to you know challenge not necessarily application of data warehousing on a node i want to close by coming back to the issues of standards um you've specifically envisioned data mesh to be technology agnostic as i said before and of course everyone myself included we're going to run a vendor's technology platform through a data mesh filter the reality is per the matt turc chart we showed earlier there are lots of technologies that that can be nodes within the data mesh or facilitate data sharing or governance etc but there's clearly a lack of standardization i'm sometimes skeptical that the vendor community will drive this but maybe like you know kubernetes you know google or some other internet giant is going to contribute something to open source that addresses this problem but talk a little bit more about your thoughts on standardization what kinds of standards are needed and where do you think they'll come from sure i mean the you write that the vendors are not today incentivized to create those open standards because majority of the vet not all of them but some vendors operational model is about bring your data to my platform and then bring your computation to me uh and all will be great and and that will be great for a portion of the clients and portion of environments where that complexity we're talking about doesn't exist so so we need yes other players perhaps maybe um some of the cloud providers or people that are more incentivized to open um open their platform in a way for data sharing so as a starting point i think standardization around data sharing so if you look at the spectrum right now we have um a de facto sound it's not even a standard for something like sql i mean everybody's bastardized to call and extended it with so many things that i don't even know what this standard sql is anymore but we have that for some form of a querying but beyond that i know for example folks at databricks to start to create some standards around delta sharing and sharing the data in different models so i think data sharing as a concept the same way that apis were about capability sharing so we need to have the data apis or analytical data apis and data sharing extended to go beyond simply sql or languages like that i think we need standards around computational prior policies so this is again something that is formulating in the operational world we have a few standards around how do you articulate access control how do you identify the agents who are trying to access with different authentication mechanism we need to bring some of those our ad our own you know our data specific um articulation of policies uh some something as simple as uh identity management across different technologies it's non-existent so if you want to secure your data across three different technologies there is no common way of saying who's the agent that is acting uh to act to to access the data can i authenticate and authorize them so so those are some of the very basic building blocks and then the gravy on top would be new standards around enriched kind of semantic modeling of the data so we have a common language to describe the semantic of the data in different nodes and then relationship between them we have prior work with rdf and folks that were focused on i guess linking data across the web with the um kind of the data web i guess work that we had in the past we need to revisit those and see their practicality in the enterprise con context so so data modeling a rich language for data semantic modeling and data connectivity most importantly i think those are some of the items on my wish list that's good well we'll do our part to try to keep the standards you know push that push that uh uh movement jamaica we're going to leave it there i'm so grateful to have you uh come on to the cube really appreciate your time it's just always a pleasure you're such a clear thinker so thanks again thank you dave that's it's wonderful to be here now we're going to post a number of links to some of the great work that jamark and her team and her books and so you check that out because we remember we publish each week on siliconangle.com and wikibon.com and these episodes are all available as podcasts wherever you listen listen to just search breaking analysis podcast don't forget to check out etr.plus for all the survey data do keep in touch i'm at d vallante follow jamac d z h a m a k d or you can email me at david.velante at siliconangle.com comment on the linkedin post this is dave vellante for the cube insights powered by etrbwell and we'll see you next time you

value in jobs is probably the most rewarding >>things I've ever been involved >>in And I bring that energy to the queue because the cube is where all the ideas are and where the experts are, where the people are And I think what's most exciting about the cube is that we get to talk to people who are making things happen, entrepreneurs ceo of companies, venture capitalists, people who are really on a day in and day out basis, building great companies and the technology business is just not a lot of real time live tv coverage and and the cube is a non linear tv operation. We do everything that the T. V guys on cable don't do. We do longer interviews. We asked tougher questions. We >>ask sometimes some light questions. We talked about the person and what >>they feel about it's not prompted and scripted. It's a conversation authentic and for shows that have the cube coverage and makes the show buzz that creates excitement. More importantly, it creates great content, great digital assets that can be shared instantaneously to the world. Over 31 million people have viewed the cube and that is the result of great content, great conversations and I'm so proud to be part of a Q with great team. Hi, I'm john barrier, Thanks for watching the cube boy. >>Okay, welcome back everyone cube coverage of AWS amazon web services public sector summit in person here in Washington D. C. I'm john Kerry host of the cube with Sandy carter and Lynn martin Vm ware Vice president of government education and healthcare. Great to see you both cube alumni's although she's been on since 2014 your first time in 2018 18 2018. Great to see you. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. Yeah, thanks for having us. So VM ware and 80 of us have a huge partnership. We've covered that announcement when Andy and Pat nelson was the Ceo. Then a lots happened, a lot of growth. A lot of success. Congratulations. Thank you. What's the big news with AWS this year in >>public sector. So we just received our authorization to operate for Fed ramp high. Um and we actually have a lot of joint roadmap planning. You are kicking off our job today with the Department of Defense and I. L five for the defense customers is also in process. So um a lot of fruits of a long time of labor. So very excited, >>awesome. So explain what does the Fed ramp authority to operate mean? What is >>that all about? So I would say in a nutshell, it's really putting a commercial offering through the security protocols to support the federal government needs. Um and there's different layers of that depending on the end user customers. So Fed ramp i across this, across all the civilian and non classified workloads in the federal government. Um probably applicability for state, local government as well with the new state Gramp focus. Um Fed ramp. I will meet or exceed that. So it will be applicable across the other parts of the government as well and all operated, you know, in a controlled environment jointly. So you get the VM ware software stack on top of the platform from A W. S and all the services that is more VM >>ware, faster deployed usage, faster acceleration. >>Yeah, so I would say um today the government operates on VM ware across all of the government, state, local and federal, um some workloads are still on prem many and this will really accelerate that transformation journey to the cloud and be able to move workloads quicker onto the BMC on AWS platform without free architect in your >>application, without giving away any kind of VM World Secret because that's next week. What is the value proposition of VM ware cloud, on AWS? What is the, what is the, what is the main value proposition you guys see in the public >>sector? So I see three and then Sandy chime in their two, I would say, you know, the costs in general to operate In the Cloud vs on prem or significant savings, we've seen savings over 300% on some customers. Um the speed on the application movement I think is a >>huge >>unique benefit on BMC on AWS. So traditionally to move to native cloud, you have to really do a lot of application were to be able to move those workloads where on BMC on AWS to move them pretty fast. And it also leverages the investments that the government agencies have already made in their operational tools and things of that nature. So it's not like a full reinvestment for something new but really leveraging both the skill sets in the data center in the I. T. Shops and the tools and investments you've bought over the past. And then the third area I would say is really getting the agility and flexibility and speed of a cloud experience. >>What's your, what's your reaction to the partnership? >>You know, we were just talking uh in a survey to our customers and 67% of them said that the velocity of the migration really matters to them. And one of the things that we do really well together is migrate very quickly, so we have workloads that we've migrated that have taken you know weeks months uh as opposed to years as they go over, which is really powerful. And then also tomorrow VM ware is with us in a session on data led migration. We were talking about data earlier and VM ware cloud on Aws also helps to migrate over like sequel server, database oracle databases so that we can also leverage that data now on the cloud to make better decisions and >>real time decisions as >>well. It's been really interesting to watch the partnership and watching VM ware transform as well, not only the migrations are in play with the public sector, there's a lot of them, believe me, healthcare, you name every area. It's all, all those old systems are out there. You know, I'm talking about out there. But now with microservices and containers, you've got tansy and you got the whole cloud, native VM ware stack emerging that's going to allow customers to re factor This is a dynamic that is kind of under reported >>Migration is one thing. But I think, I think that the whole Tan Xue portfolio is one of the most interesting things going on in VM ware. And we also have some integration going on on D. M. C on AWS with tan to we don't have that pentagram. Yeah. For the government market, but it's on the road mapping plans and we have other customers And I would say, you know, some of my non federal government customers were able to move workloads in hours, not even days or weeks. There you go, literally back and forth. And very impressive on the BMC on AWS platform. So, um, as we expand things in with the Tan Xue platform is, you know, Sandy talked about this yesterday and our partners summit, Everyone's talking about containers and things like that. VM ware is doing a lot of investment around the cooper Netease plus the application migration work and things of that nature. >>I'd love to get you guys reaction to this comment because I've seen a lot of change. Obviously we're all seeing it. I've actually interviewed a bunch of aWS and VM ware customers and I would call um some of the categories skeptics the old school cloud holding the line. And then when the pandemic hit those skeptics flip over because they see the value. In fact I actually interviewed a skeptic who became an award winner who went on the record and said I love hey w I love the cloud. I was a skeptic because you saw the value the time to value. This is really a key dynamic. I know it's kind of thrown out a lot of digital transformation or I. T. Modernization but the agility and that kind of speed. It becomes the number one thing. What's your reaction to the skeptics converting? And then what happens >>next? Um So I think there's still a lot of folks in I. T. That our tree huggers or I call him several huggers uh um pick your term. And I think that um there is some concern about what their role will be. So I think one of the differences delivering cloud services to your internal constituents is really understand the business value of the applications and what that delivers from a mission perspective back to your client. And that's a shift for data center owners to really start thinking more from the customer mission perspective than or my servers running you know, do you have enough storage capacity blah blah blah. So I think that creates that skepticism and part of that's around what's my role going to be. So in the cloud transformation of a customer, there's all this old people part that becomes really the catalyst and I think the customers that have been very sad and really leverage that and then retool the business value back to the end users around the mission have done the best job. >>I mean we talk about this all the time, it's really hard to get the best debris partners together and then make it all work cloud, it becomes easier than doing it very bespoke or waterfall way >>Yeah, I have to say with the announcement yesterday, we're going to have a lot more partner with partners. So you and I have talked about this a few times where we bring partners together to work with each other. In fact, Lynn is going to go meet with one of those partners right after the interview um that want to really focus in on a couple of particular areas to really drive this and I think, you know, part of the, you know, as your re factoring or migrating VMro over the other big benefit is skills, people have really strong, these fear skills, the sand skills, >>operation >>operation tools Yeah. And so they want to preserve those, I think that's part of the beauty of doing VM ware cloud on Aws is you get to take those skills with you into the new world as well, >>you know, I was going to just ask the next question ai ops or day two operations, a big buzzword Yeah and that is essentially operation mindset, that devoPS DEVOps two is coming. Emily Freeman gave a keynote with our last event we had with with amazon public showcase revolution and devops devoPS 2.0 is coming which is now faster, security is built in the front end, so all these things are happening so now it's coming into the public sector with the GovCloud. So I have to ask you Lynn what are some of the big successes you've had with on the gulf cloudy, just Govcloud. >>So I would say we've had a lot of customers across the state local side especially um that weren't waiting for fed ramp and those customers were able to move like I mentioned this earlier and you guys just touched on it. So I think the benefit and the benefit, one of our best customers is Emmett Right? Absolutely mitt, God bless them. They've been on every cloud journey with VM ware since 2014 we moved in my three years now and talk about a skeptic. So although Mark is very revolutionary and tries new things, he was like oh who knows and literally when we moved those workloads it was minutes and the I. T shop day one there was no transformation work for them, it was literally using all the tools and things in that environment. So the progress of that and the growth of the applications that have been able to move their things. That took 2 to 3 years before we're all done within six months and really being able to expand those business values back out for the services that he delivers to the customers. So I think you'll see quite a bit across state, local federal government. You know, we have U. S. Marshals, thank them very much. They were our sponsor that we've been working with the last few years. We have a defense customer working with us around aisle five. >>Um you know, if we could also thank Coal Fire because Cold Fire is one of our joint partners talking about partner partners and they were played a critical role in helping BM We're cloud on AWS and get the fed ramp high certifications. >>They were R three p. O. We hired them for their exercise expertise with AWS as well as helping the BMR. >>Well the partnership with the war has been a really big success. Remember the naysayers when that was announced? Um it really has worked out well for you guys. Um I do want to ask you one more thing and we don't mind. Um One of the biggest challenges that you see the blockers or challenges from agencies moving to the cloud cover cloud because you know, people are always trying to get those blockers out of the way but it's an organizational culture is a process technology. What's your what's your take on that land. Um >>I think a lot does have to do with the people and the organizational history. I think somewhere you need a leader and a champion that really wants to change for good. I call Pat, used to call a tech for good. I love that. Right to really, you know, get things moving for the customers. I mean one of the things I'm most proud about supporting the government business in general though is really the focus on the mission is unparalleled, you know, in the sectors we support, you say, education or government or healthcare. Right? All three of those sectors, there's never any doubt on what that focuses. So I think the positives of it are like, how do you get into that change around that? And that could be systems, there's less what's VMC ON AWS as we mentioned, because the tools already in the environment so they know how to use it. But I do think there's a transformation on the data center teams and really becoming moving from technology to the business aspects a little bit more around the missions and things of that. >>What's interesting is that it's so, I mean, I actually love this environment even though it's kind of hard on everyone. Education and health care have been disrupted unprecedented ways and it's never gonna change back? Remember healthcare, hip data silos, silos, education don't spend on it. >>That education was the most remarkable part. Unbelievable. I started working in february before school started with one of the large cities everyone can guess and just the way they were able to pivot so fast was amazing and I don't think anybody, I think we did like five years of transformation in six months and it's never going to go back. >>I completely a great yes education. We just did a piece of work with CTS around the world and education is one of the most disrupted as you said health care and then the third one is government and all three of those are public sector. So the three most disruptive sectors or mission areas are in public sector which has created a lot of opportunity for us and our partnership to add value. I mean that's what we're all about right customer obsession working backwards from the customer and making sure that our partnership continues to add value to those customers >>while we love the tech action on the cube. Obviously we'd like to document and pontificate and talk about it. Digital revolution. Every application now is in play globally. Not just for I. T. But for society, public sector more than ever is the hottest area on the planet. >>Absolutely. And I would say that now our customers are looking at E. S. G. Environmental, they want to know what you're doing on sustainability. They want to know what you're doing for society. We just had a bid that came in and they wanted to understand our diversity plan and then open governance. They're looking for that openness. They're not just artificial intelligence but looking at explainable AI as well. So I think that we have a chance to impact environment societies and governance >>and you mentioned space earlier. Another way I talked with closure. I mean I'm an interview today too, but what's happening with space and what you can monitor disasters, understand how to deploy resources to areas that might have challenges, earthquakes or fires or other things. All new things are happening. >>Absolutely. And all that data people like to say, why are you spending money on space? There's so many problems here, but that data that comes from space is going to impact us here on earth. And so all the things that we're doing, all that data could be used with VM ware cloud on AWS as well. >>Well, you watch closely we got some space coverage coming. I got a big scoop. I'm gonna release soon about something behind the dark side of the moon on in terms of space sovereignty coming a lot of action, cybersecurity in space. That's really heavy right now. But >>aren't you glad that VMC cloud on AWS isn't hidden on the dark side of the moon. It's >>right on the congratulations. Thanks for coming on. You guys are doing great. Thanks for >>thanks for sharing. Congratulations. >>Okay, cube coverage here continues. AWS public sector summit in Washington D. C live for two days of coverage be right back. Thank you. Mhm. Mhm mm mm hmm.

>>Hello and welcome today's cube presentation of eight of us startup showcase. I'm john for your host highlighting the hottest companies and devops data analytics and cloud management lisa martin and David want are here to kick it off. We've got a great program for you again. This is our, our new community event model where we're doing every quarter, we have every new episode, this is quarter three this year or episode three, season one of the hottest cloud startups and we're gonna be featured. Then we're gonna do a keynote package and then 15 countries will present their story, Go check them out and then have a closing keynote with a practitioner and we've got some great lineups, lisa Dave, great to see you. Thanks for joining me. >>Hey guys, >>great to be here. So David got to ask you, you know, back in events last night we're at the 14 it's event where they had the golf PGA championship with the cube Now we got the hybrid model, This is the new normal. We're in, we got these great companies were showcasing them. What's your take? >>Well, you're right. I mean, I think there's a combination of things. We're seeing some live shows. We saw what we did with at mobile world Congress. We did the show with AWS storage day where it was, we were at the spheres, there was no, there was a live audience, but they weren't there physically. It was just virtual and yeah, so, and I just got pained about reinvent. Hey Dave, you gotta make your flights. So I'm making my flights >>were gonna be at the amazon web services, public sector summit next week. At least a lot, a lot of cloud convergence going on here. We got many companies being featured here that we spoke with the Ceo and their top people cloud management, devops data, nelson security. Really cutting edge companies, >>yes, cutting edge companies who are all focused on acceleration. We've talked about the acceleration of digital transformation the last 18 months and we've seen a tremendous amount of acceleration in innovation with what these startups are doing. We've talked to like you said, there's, there's C suite, we've also talked to their customers about how they are innovating so quickly with this hybrid environment, this remote work and we've talked a lot about security in the last week or so. You mentioned that we were at Fortinet cybersecurity skills gap. What some of these companies are doing with automation for example, to help shorten that gap, which is a big opportunity >>for the job market. Great stuff. Dave so the format of this event, you're going to have a fireside chat with the practitioner, we'd like to end these programs with a great experienced practitioner cutting edge in data february. The beginning lisa are gonna be kicking off with of course Jeff bar to give us the update on what's going on AWS and then a special presentation from Emily Freeman who is the author of devops for dummies, she's introducing new content. The revolution in devops devops two point oh and of course jerry Chen from Greylock cube alumni is going to come on and talk about his new thesis castles in the cloud creating moats at cloud scale. We've got a great lineup of people and so the front ends can be great. Dave give us a little preview of what people can expect at the end of the fireside chat. >>Well at the highest level john I've always said we're entering that sort of third great wave of cloud. First wave was experimentation. The second big wave was migration. The third wave of integration, Deep business integration and what you're >>going to hear from >>Hello Fresh today is how they like many companies that started early last decade. They started with an on prem Hadoop system and then of course we all know what happened is S three essentially took the knees out from, from the on prem Hadoop market lowered costs, brought things into the cloud and what Hello Fresh is doing is they're transforming from that legacy Hadoop system into its running on AWS but into a data mess, you know, it's a passionate topic of mine. Hello Fresh was scaling they realized that they couldn't keep up so they had to rethink their entire data architecture and they built it around data mesh Clements key and christoph Soewandi gonna explain how they actually did that are on a journey or decentralized data >>measure it and your posts have been awesome on data measure. We get a lot of traction. Certainly you're breaking analysis for the folks watching check out David Landes, Breaking analysis every week, highlighting the cutting edge trends in tech Dave. We're gonna see you later, lisa and I are gonna be here in the morning talking about with Emily. We got Jeff Barr teed up. Dave. Thanks for coming on. Looking forward to fireside chat lisa. We'll see you when Emily comes back on. But we're gonna go to Jeff bar right now for Dave and I are gonna interview Jeff. Mm >>Hey Jeff, >>here he is. Hey, how are you? How's it going really well. So I gotta ask you, the reinvent is on, everyone wants to know that's happening right. We're good with Reinvent. >>Reinvent is happening. I've got my hotel and actually listening today, if I just remembered, I still need to actually book my flights. I've got my to do list on my desk and I do need to get my >>flights. Uh, >>really looking forward >>to it. I can't wait to see the all the announcements and blog posts. We're gonna, we're gonna hear from jerry Chen later. I love the after on our next event. Get your reaction to this castle and castles in the cloud where competitive advantages can be built in the cloud. We're seeing examples of that. But first I gotta ask you give us an update of what's going on. The ap and ecosystem has been an incredible uh, celebration these past couple weeks, >>so, so a lot of different things happening and the interesting thing to me is that as part of my job, I often think that I'm effectively living in the future because I get to see all this really cool stuff that we're building just a little bit before our customers get to, and so I'm always thinking okay, here I am now, and what's the world going to be like in a couple of weeks to a month or two when these launches? I'm working on actually get out the door and that, that's always really, really fun, just kind of getting that, that little edge into where we're going, but this year was a little interesting because we had to really significant birthdays, we had the 15 year anniversary of both EC two and S three and we're so focused on innovating and moving forward, that it's actually pretty rare for us at Aws to look back and say, wow, we've actually done all these amazing things in in the last 15 years, >>you know, it's kind of cool Jeff, if I may is is, you know, of course in the early days everybody said, well, a place for startup is a W. S and now the great thing about the startup showcases, we're seeing the startups that >>are >>very near, or some of them have even reached escape velocity, so they're not, they're not tiny little companies anymore, they're in their transforming their respective industries, >>they really are and I think that as they start ups grow, they really start to lean into the power of the cloud. They as they start to think, okay, we've we've got our basic infrastructure in place, we've got, we were serving data, we're serving up a few customers, everything is actually working pretty well for us. We've got our fundamental model proven out now, we can invest in publicity and marketing and scaling and but they don't have to think about what's happening behind the scenes. They just if they've got their auto scaling or if they're survivalists, the infrastructure simply grows to meet their demand and it's it's just a lot less things that they have to worry about. They can focus on the fun part of their business which is actually listening to customers and building up an awesome business >>Jeff as you guys are putting together all the big pre reinvented, knows a lot of stuff that goes on prior as well and they say all the big good stuff to reinvent. But you start to see some themes emerged this year. One of them is modernization of applications, the speed of application development in the cloud with the cloud scale devops personas, whatever persona you want to talk about but basically speed the speed of of the app developers where other departments have been slowing things down, I won't say name names, but security group and I t I mean I shouldn't have said that but only kidding but no but seriously people want in minutes and seconds now not days or weeks. You know whether it's policy. What are some of the trends that you're seeing around this this year as we get into some of the new stuff coming out >>So Dave customers really do want speed and for we've actually encapsulate this for a long time in amazon in what we call the bias for action leadership principle >>where >>we just need to jump in and move forward and and make things happen. A lot of customers look at that and they say yes this is great. We need to have the same bias fraction. Some do. Some are still trying to figure out exactly how to put it into play. And they absolutely for sure need to pay attention to security. They need to respect the past and make sure that whatever they're doing is in line with I. T. But they do want to move forward. And the interesting thing that I see time and time again is it's not simply about let's adopt a new technology. It's how do we >>how do we keep our workforce >>engaged? How do we make sure that they've got the right training? How do we bring our our I. T. Team along for this. Hopefully new and fun and exciting journey where they get to learn some interesting new technologies they've got all this very much accumulated business knowledge they still want to put to use, maybe they're a little bit apprehensive about something brand new and they hear about the cloud, but there by and large, they really want to move forward. They just need a little bit of >>help to make it happen >>real good guys. One of the things you're gonna hear today, we're talking about speed traditionally going fast. Oftentimes you meant you have to sacrifice some things on quality and what you're going to hear from some of the startups today is how they're addressing that to automation and modern devoPS technologies and sort of rethinking that whole application development approach. That's something I'm really excited to see organization is beginning to adopt so they don't have to make that tradeoff anymore. >>Yeah, I would >>never want to see someone >>sacrifice quality, >>but I do think that iterating very quickly and using the best of devoPS principles to be able to iterate incredibly quickly and get that first launch out there and then listen with both ears just >>as much >>as you can, Everything. You hear iterate really quickly to meet those needs in, in hours and days, not months, quarters or years. >>Great stuff. Chef and a lot of the companies were featuring here in the startup showcase represent that new kind of thinking, um, systems thinking as well as you know, the cloud scale and again and it's finally here, the revolution of deVOps is going to the next generation and uh, we're excited to have Emily Freeman who's going to come on and give a little preview for her new talk on this revolution. So Jeff, thank you for coming on, appreciate you sharing the update here on the cube. Happy >>to be. I'm actually really looking forward to hearing from Emily. >>Yeah, it's great. Great. Looking forward to the talk. Brand new Premier, Okay, uh, lisa martin, Emily Freeman is here. She's ready to come in and we're going to preview her lightning talk Emily. Um, thanks for coming on, we really appreciate you coming on really, this is about to talk around deVOPS next gen and I think lisa this is one of those things we've been, we've been discussing with all the companies. It's a new kind of thinking it's a revolution, it's a systems mindset, you're starting to see the connections there she is. Emily, Thanks for coming. I appreciate it. >>Thank you for having me. So your teaser video >>was amazing. Um, you know, that little secret radical idea, something completely different. Um, you gotta talk coming up, what's the premise behind this revolution, you know, these tying together architecture, development, automation deployment, operating altogether. >>Yes, well, we have traditionally always used the sclc, which is the software delivery life cycle. Um, and it is a straight linear process that has actually been around since the sixties, which is wild to me um, and really originated in manufacturing. Um, and as much as I love the Toyota production system and how much it has shown up in devops as a sort of inspiration on how to run things better. We are not making cars, we are making software and I think we have to use different approaches and create a sort of model that better reflects our modern software development process. >>It's a bold idea and looking forward to the talk and as motivation. I went into my basement and dusted off all my books from college in the 80s and the sea estimates it was waterfall. It was software development life cycle. They trained us to think this way and it came from the mainframe people. It was like, it's old school, like really, really old and it really hasn't been updated. Where's the motivation? I actually cloud is kind of converging everything together. We see that, but you kind of hit on this persona thing. Where did that come from this persona? Because you know, people want to put people in buckets release engineer. I mean, where's that motivation coming from? >>Yes, you're absolutely right that it came from the mainframes. I think, you know, waterfall is necessary when you're using a punch card or mag tape to load things onto a mainframe, but we don't exist in that world anymore. Thank goodness. And um, yes, so we, we use personas all the time in tech, you know, even to register, well not actually to register for this event, but a lot events. A lot of events, you have to click that drop down. Right. Are you a developer? Are you a manager, whatever? And the thing is personas are immutable in my opinion. I was a developer. I will always identify as a developer despite playing a lot of different roles and doing a lot of different jobs. Uh, and this can vary throughout the day. Right. You might have someone who has a title of software architect who ends up helping someone pair program or develop or test or deploy. Um, and so we wear a lot of hats day to day and I think our discussions around roles would be a better, um, certainly a better approach than personas >>lease. And I've been discussing with many of these companies around the roles and we're hearing from them directly and they're finding out that people have, they're mixing and matching on teams. So you're, you're an S R E on one team and you're doing something on another team where the workflows and the workloads defined the team formation. So this is a cultural discussion. >>It absolutely is. Yes. I think it is a cultural discussion and it really comes to the heart of devops, right? It's people process. And then tools deVOps has always been about culture and making sure that developers have all the tools they need to be productive and honestly happy. What good is all of this? If developing software isn't a joyful experience. Well, >>I got to ask you, I got you here obviously with server list and functions just starting to see this kind of this next gen. And we're gonna hear from jerry Chen, who's a Greylock VC who's going to talk about castles in the clouds, where he's discussing the moats that could be created with a competitive advantage in cloud scale. And I think he points to the snowflakes of the world. You're starting to see this new thing happening. This is devops 2.0, this is the revolution. Is this kind of where you see the same vision of your talk? >>Yes, so DeVOps created 2000 and 8, 2000 and nine, totally different ecosystem in the world we were living in, you know, we didn't have things like surveillance and containers, we didn't have this sort of default distributed nature, certainly not the cloud. Uh and so I'm very excited for jerry's talk. I'm curious to hear more about these moz. I think it's fascinating. Um but yeah, you're seeing different companies use different tools and processes to accelerate their delivery and that is the competitive advantage. How can we figure out how to utilize these tools in the most efficient way possible. >>Thank you for coming and giving us a preview. Let's now go to your lightning keynote talk. Fresh content. Premier of this revolution in Devops and the Freemans Talk, we'll go there now. >>Hi, I'm Emily Freeman, I'm the author of devops for dummies and the curator of 97 things every cloud engineer should know. I am thrilled to be here with you all today. I am really excited to share with you a kind of a wild idea, a complete re imagining of the S DLC and I want to be clear, I need your feedback. I want to know what you think of this. You can always find me on twitter at editing. Emily, most of my work centers around deVOps and I really can't overstate what an impact the concept of deVOPS has had on this industry in many ways it built on the foundation of Agile to become a default a standard we all reach for in our everyday work. When devops surfaced as an idea in 2008, the tech industry was in a vastly different space. AWS was an infancy offering only a handful of services. Azure and G C P didn't exist yet. The majority's majority of companies maintained their own infrastructure. Developers wrote code and relied on sys admins to deploy new code at scheduled intervals. Sometimes months apart, container technology hadn't been invented applications adhered to a monolithic architecture, databases were almost exclusively relational and serverless wasn't even a concept. Everything from the application to the engineers was centralized. Our current ecosystem couldn't be more different. Software is still hard, don't get me wrong, but we continue to find novel solutions to consistently difficult, persistent problems. Now, some of these end up being a sort of rebranding of old ideas, but others are a unique and clever take to abstracting complexity or automating toil or perhaps most important, rethinking challenging the very premises we have accepted as Cannon for years, if not decades. In the years since deVOps attempted to answer the critical conflict between developers and operations, engineers, deVOps has become a catch all term and there have been a number of derivative works. Devops has come to mean 5000 different things to 5000 different people. For some, it can be distilled to continuous integration and continuous delivery or C I C D. For others, it's simply deploying code more frequently, perhaps adding a smattering of tests for others. Still, its organizational, they've added a platform team, perhaps even a questionably named DEVOPS team or have created an engineering structure that focuses on a separation of concerns. Leaving feature teams to manage the development, deployment, security and maintenance of their siloed services, say, whatever the interpretation, what's important is that there isn't a universally accepted standard. Well, what deVOPS is or what it looks like an execution, it's a philosophy more than anything else. A framework people can utilize to configure and customize their specific circumstances to modern development practices. The characteristic of deVOPS that I think we can all agree on though, is that an attempted to capture the challenges of the entire software development process. It's that broad umbrella, that holistic view that I think we need to breathe life into again, The challenge we face is that DeVOps isn't increasingly outmoded solution to a previous problem developers now face. Cultural and technical challenge is far greater than how to more quickly deploy a monolithic application. Cloud native is the future the next collection of default development decisions and one the deVOPS story can't absorb in its current form. I believe the era of deVOPS is waning and in this moment as the sun sets on deVOPS, we have a unique opportunity to rethink rebuild free platform. Even now, I don't have a crystal ball. That would be very handy. I'm not completely certain with the next decade of tech looks like and I can't write this story alone. I need you but I have some ideas that can get the conversation started, I believe to build on what was we have to throw away assumptions that we've taken for granted all this time in order to move forward. We must first step back. Mhm. The software or systems development life cycle, what we call the S. D. L. C. has been in use since the 1960s and it's remained more or less the same since before color television and the touch tone phone. Over the last 60 or so odd years we've made tweaks, slight adjustments, massaged it. The stages or steps are always a little different with agile and deVOps we sort of looped it into a circle and then an infinity loop we've added pretty colors. But the sclc is more or less the same and it has become an assumption. We don't even think about it anymore, universally adopted constructs like the sclc have an unspoken permanence. They feel as if they have always been and always will be. I think the impact of that is even more potent. If you were born after a construct was popularized. Nearly everything around us is a construct, a model, an artifact of a human idea. The chair you're sitting in the desk, you work at the mug from which you drink coffee or sometimes wine, buildings, toilets, plumbing, roads, cars, art, computers, everything. The sclc is a remnant an artifact of a previous era and I think we should throw it away or perhaps more accurately replace it, replace it with something that better reflects the actual nature of our work. A linear, single threaded model designed for the manufacturer of material goods cannot possibly capture the distributed complexity of modern socio technical systems. It just can't. Mhm. And these two ideas aren't mutually exclusive that the sclc was industry changing, valuable and extraordinarily impactful and that it's time for something new. I believe we are strong enough to hold these two ideas at the same time, showing respect for the past while envisioning the future. Now, I don't know about you, I've never had a software project goes smoothly in one go. No matter how small. Even if I'm the only person working on it and committing directly to master software development is chaos. It's a study and entropy and it is not getting any more simple. The model with which we think and talk about software development must capture the multithreaded, non sequential nature of our work. It should embody the roles engineers take on and the considerations they make along the way. It should build on the foundations of agile and devops and represent the iterative nature of continuous innovation. Now, when I was thinking about this, I was inspired by ideas like extreme programming and the spiral model. I I wanted something that would have layers, threads, even a way of visually representing multiple processes happening in parallel. And what I settled on is the revolution model. I believe the visualization of revolution is capable of capturing the pivotal moments of any software scenario. And I'm going to dive into all the discrete elements. But I want to give you a moment to have a first impression, to absorb my idea. I call it revolution because well for one it revolves, it's circular shape reflects the continuous and iterative nature of our work, but also because it is revolutionary. I am challenging a 60 year old model that is embedded into our daily language. I don't expect Gartner to build a magic quadrant around this tomorrow, but that would be super cool. And you should call me my mission with. This is to challenge the status quo to create a model that I think more accurately reflects the complexity of modern cloud native software development. The revolution model is constructed of five concentric circles describing the critical roles of software development architect. Ng development, automating, deploying and operating intersecting each loop are six spokes that describe the production considerations every engineer has to consider throughout any engineering work and that's test, ability, secure ability, reliability, observe ability, flexibility and scalability. The considerations listed are not all encompassing. There are of course things not explicitly included. I figured if I put 20 spokes, some of us, including myself, might feel a little overwhelmed. So let's dive into each element in this model. We have long used personas as the default way to do divide audiences and tailor messages to group people. Every company in the world right now is repeating the mantra of developers, developers, developers but personas have always bugged me a bit because this approach typically either oversimplifies someone's career are needlessly complicated. Few people fit cleanly and completely into persona based buckets like developers and operations anymore. The lines have gotten fuzzy on the other hand, I don't think we need to specifically tailor messages as to call out the difference between a devops engineer and a release engineer or a security administrator versus a security engineer but perhaps most critically, I believe personas are immutable. A persona is wholly dependent on how someone identifies themselves. It's intrinsic not extrinsic. Their titles may change their jobs may differ, but they're probably still selecting the same persona on that ubiquitous drop down. We all have to choose from when registering for an event. Probably this one too. I I was a developer and I will always identify as a developer despite doing a ton of work in areas like devops and Ai Ops and Deverell in my heart. I'm a developer I think about problems from that perspective. First it influences my thinking and my approach roles are very different. Roles are temporary, inconsistent, constantly fluctuating. If I were an actress, the parts I would play would be lengthy and varied, but the persona I would identify as would remain an actress and artist lesbian. Your work isn't confined to a single set of skills. It may have been a decade ago, but it is not today in any given week or sprint, you may play the role of an architect. Thinking about how to design a feature or service, developer building out code or fixing a bug and on automation engineer, looking at how to improve manual processes. We often refer to as soil release engineer, deploying code to different environments or releasing it to customers or in operations. Engineer ensuring an application functions inconsistent expected ways and no matter what role we play. We have to consider a number of issues. The first is test ability. All software systems require testing to assure architects that designs work developers, the code works operators, that infrastructure is running as expected and engineers of all disciplines that code changes won't bring down the whole system testing in its many forms is what enables systems to be durable and have longevity. It's what reassures engineers that changes won't impact current functionality. A system without tests is a disaster waiting to happen, which is why test ability is first among equals at this particular roundtable. Security is everyone's responsibility. But if you understand how to design and execute secure systems, I struggle with this security incidents for the most part are high impact, low probability events. The really big disasters, the one that the ones that end up on the news and get us all free credit reporting for a year. They don't happen super frequently and then goodness because you know that there are endless small vulnerabilities lurking in our systems. Security is something we all know we should dedicate time to but often don't make time for. And let's be honest, it's hard and complicated and a little scary def sec apps. The first derivative of deVOPS asked engineers to move security left this approach. Mint security was a consideration early in the process, not something that would block release at the last moment. This is also the consideration under which I'm putting compliance and governance well not perfectly aligned. I figure all the things you have to call lawyers for should just live together. I'm kidding. But in all seriousness, these three concepts are really about risk management, identity, data, authorization. It doesn't really matter what specific issue you're speaking about, the question is who has access to what win and how and that is everyone's responsibility at every stage site reliability engineering or sorry, is a discipline job and approach for good reason. It is absolutely critical that applications and services work as expected. Most of the time. That said, availability is often mistakenly treated as a synonym for reliability. Instead, it's a single aspect of the concept if a system is available but customer data is inaccurate or out of sync. The system is not reliable, reliability has five key components, availability, latency, throughput. Fidelity and durability, reliability is the end result. But resiliency for me is the journey the action engineers can take to improve reliability, observe ability is the ability to have insight into an application or system. It's the combination of telemetry and monitoring and alerting available to engineers and leadership. There's an aspect of observe ability that overlaps with reliability, but the purpose of observe ability isn't just to maintain a reliable system though, that is of course important. It is the capacity for engineers working on a system to have visibility into the inner workings of that system. The concept of observe ability actually originates and linear dynamic systems. It's defined as how well internal states of a system can be understood based on information about its external outputs. If it is critical when companies move systems to the cloud or utilize managed services that they don't lose visibility and confidence in their systems. The shared responsibility model of cloud storage compute and managed services require that engineering teams be able to quickly be alerted to identify and remediate issues as they arise. Flexible systems are capable of adapting to meet the ever changing needs of the customer and the market segment, flexible code bases absorb new code smoothly. Embody a clean separation of concerns. Are partitioned into small components or classes and architected to enable the now as well as the next inflexible systems. Change dependencies are reduced or eliminated. Database schemas accommodate change well components, communicate via a standardized and well documented A. P. I. The only thing constant in our industry is change and every role we play, creating flexibility and solutions that can be flexible that will grow as the applications grow is absolutely critical. Finally, scalability scalability refers to more than a system's ability to scale for additional load. It implies growth scalability and the revolution model carries the continuous innovation of a team and the byproducts of that growth within a system. For me, scalability is the most human of the considerations. It requires each of us in our various roles to consider everyone around us, our customers who use the system or rely on its services, our colleagues current and future with whom we collaborate and even our future selves. Mhm. Software development isn't a straight line, nor is it a perfect loop. It is an ever changing complex dance. There are twirls and pivots and difficult spins forward and backward. Engineers move in parallel, creating truly magnificent pieces of art. We need a modern model for this modern era and I believe this is just the revolution to get us started. Thank you so much for having me. >>Hey, we're back here. Live in the keynote studio. I'm john for your host here with lisa martin. David lot is getting ready for the fireside chat ending keynote with the practitioner. Hello! Fresh without data mesh lisa Emily is amazing. The funky artwork there. She's amazing with the talk. I was mesmerized. It was impressive. >>The revolution of devops and the creative element was a really nice surprise there. But I love what she's doing. She's challenging the status quo. If we've learned nothing in the last year and a half, We need to challenge the status quo. A model from the 1960s that is no longer linear. What she's doing is revolutionary. >>And we hear this all the time. All the cube interviews we do is that you're seeing the leaders, the SVP's of engineering or these departments where there's new new people coming in that are engineering or developers, they're playing multiple roles. It's almost a multidisciplinary aspect where you know, it's like going into in and out burger in the fryer later and then you're doing the grill, you're doing the cashier, people are changing roles or an architect, their test release all in one no longer departmental, slow siloed groups. >>She brought up a great point about persona is that we no longer fit into these buckets. That the changing roles. It's really the driver of how we should be looking at this. >>I think I'm really impressed, really bold idea, no brainer as far as I'm concerned, I think one of the things and then the comments were off the charts in a lot of young people come from discord servers. We had a good traction over there but they're all like learning. Then you have the experience, people saying this is definitely has happened and happening. The dominoes are falling and they're falling in the direction of modernization. That's the key trend speed. >>Absolutely with speed. But the way that Emily is presenting it is not in a brash bold, but it's in a way that makes great sense. The way that she creatively visually lined out what she was talking about Is amenable to the folks that have been doing this for since the 60s and the new folks now to really look at this from a different >>lens and I think she's a great setup on that lightning top of the 15 companies we got because you think about sis dig harness. I white sourced flamingo hacker one send out, I oh, okay. Thought spot rock set Sarah Ops ramp and Ops Monte cloud apps, sani all are doing modern stuff and we talked to them and they're all on this new wave, this monster wave coming. What's your observation when you talk to these companies? >>They are, it was great. I got to talk with eight of the 15 and the amount of acceleration of innovation that they've done in the last 18 months is phenomenal obviously with the power and the fuel and the brand reputation of aws but really what they're all facilitating cultural shift when we think of devoPS and the security folks. Um, there's a lot of work going on with ai to an automation to really kind of enabled to develop the develops folks to be in control of the process and not have to be security experts but ensuring that the security is baked in shifting >>left. We saw that the chat room was really active on the security side and one of the things I noticed was not just shift left but the other groups, the security groups and the theme of cultural, I won't say war but collision cultural shift that's happening between the groups is interesting because you have this new devops persona has been around Emily put it out for a while. But now it's going to the next level. There's new revolutions about a mindset, a systems mindset. It's a thinking and you start to see the new young companies coming out being funded by the gray locks of the world who are now like not going to be given the we lost the top three clouds one, everything. there's new business models and new technical architecture in the cloud and that's gonna be jerry Chen talk coming up next is going to be castles in the clouds because jerry chant always talked about moats, competitive advantage and how moats are key to success to guard the castle. And then we always joke, there's no more moz because the cloud has killed all the boats. But now the motor in the cloud, the castles are in the cloud, not on the ground. So very interesting thought provoking. But he's got data and if you look at the successful companies like the snowflakes of the world, you're starting to see these new formations of this new layer of innovation where companies are growing rapidly, 98 unicorns now in the cloud. Unbelievable, >>wow, that's a lot. One of the things you mentioned, there's competitive advantage and these startups are all fueled by that they know that there are other companies in the rear view mirror right behind them. If they're not able to work as quickly and as flexibly as a competitor, they have to have that speed that time to market that time to value. It was absolutely critical. And that's one of the things I think thematically that I saw along the eighth sort of that I talked to is that time to value is absolutely table stakes. >>Well, I'm looking forward to talking to jerry chan because we've talked on the queue before about this whole idea of What happens when winner takes most would mean the top 3, 4 cloud players. What happens? And we were talking about that and saying, if you have a model where an ecosystem can develop, what does that look like and back in 2013, 2014, 2015, no one really had an answer. Jerry was the only BC. He really nailed it with this castles in the cloud. He nailed the idea that this is going to happen. And so I think, you know, we'll look back at the tape or the videos from the cube, we'll find those cuts. But we were talking about this then we were pontificating and riffing on the fact that there's going to be new winners and they're gonna look different as Andy Jassy always says in the cube you have to be misunderstood if you're really going to make something happen. Most of the most successful companies are misunderstood. Not anymore. The cloud scales there. And that's what's exciting about all this. >>It is exciting that the scale is there, the appetite is there the appetite to challenge the status quo, which is right now in this economic and dynamic market that we're living in is there's nothing better. >>One of the things that's come up and and that's just real quick before we bring jerry in is automation has been insecurity, absolutely security's been in every conversation, but automation is now so hot in the sense of it's real and it's becoming part of all the design decisions. How can we automate can we automate faster where the keys to automation? Is that having the right data, What data is available? So I think the idea of automation and Ai are driving all the change and that's to me is what these new companies represent this modern error where AI is built into the outcome and the apps and all that infrastructure. So it's super exciting. Um, let's check in, we got jerry Chen line at least a great. We're gonna come back after jerry and then kick off the day. Let's bring in jerry Chen from Greylock is he here? Let's bring him in there. He is. >>Hey john good to see you. >>Hey, congratulations on an amazing talk and thesis on the castles on the cloud. Thanks for coming on. >>All right, Well thanks for reading it. Um, always were being put a piece of workout out either. Not sure what the responses, but it seemed to resonate with a bunch of developers, founders, investors and folks like yourself. So smart people seem to gravitate to us. So thank you very much. >>Well, one of the benefits of doing the Cube for 11 years, Jerry's we have videotape of many, many people talking about what the future will hold. You kind of are on this early, it wasn't called castles in the cloud, but you were all I was, we had many conversations were kind of connecting the dots in real time. But you've been on this for a while. It's great to see the work. I really think you nailed this. I think you're absolutely on point here. So let's get into it. What is castles in the cloud? New research to come out from Greylock that you spearheaded? It's collaborative effort, but you've got data behind it. Give a quick overview of what is castle the cloud, the new modes of competitive advantage for companies. >>Yeah, it's as a group project that our team put together but basically john the question is, how do you win in the cloud? Remember the conversation we had eight years ago when amazon re event was holy cow, Like can you compete with them? Like is it a winner? Take all? Winner take most And if it is winner take most, where are the white spaces for Some starts to to emerge and clearly the past eight years in the cloud this journey, we've seen big companies, data breaks, snowflakes, elastic Mongo data robot. And so um they spotted the question is, you know, why are the castles in the cloud? The big three cloud providers, Amazon google and Azure winning. You know, what advantage do they have? And then given their modes of scale network effects, how can you as a startup win? And so look, there are 500 plus services between all three cloud vendors, but there are like 500 plus um startups competing gets a cloud vendors and there's like almost 100 unicorn of private companies competing successfully against the cloud vendors, including public companies. So like Alaska, Mongo Snowflake. No data breaks. Not public yet. Hashtag or not public yet. These are some examples of the names that I think are winning and watch this space because you see more of these guys storm the castle if you will. >>Yeah. And you know one of the things that's a funny metaphor because it has many different implications. One, as we talk about security, the perimeter of the gates, the moats being on land. But now you're in the cloud, you have also different security paradigm. You have a different um, new kinds of services that are coming on board faster than ever before. Not just from the cloud players but From companies contributing into the ecosystem. So the combination of the big three making the market the main markets you, I think you call 31 markets that we know of that probably maybe more. And then you have this notion of a sub market, which means that there's like we used to call it white space back in the day, remember how many whites? Where's the white space? I mean if you're in the cloud, there's like a zillion white spaces. So talk about this sub market dynamic between markets and that are being enabled by the cloud players and how these sub markets play into it. >>Sure. So first, the first problem was what we did. We downloaded all the services for the big three clowns. Right? And you know what as recalls a database or database service like a document DB and amazon is like Cosmo dB and Azure. So first thing first is we had to like look at all three cloud providers and you? Re categorize all the services almost 500 Apples, Apples, Apples # one number two is you look at all these markets or sub markets and said, okay, how can we cluster these services into things that you know you and I can rock right. That's what amazon Azure and google think about. It is very different and the beauty of the cloud is this kind of fat long tail of services for developers. So instead of like oracle is a single database for all your needs. They're like 20 or 30 different databases from time series um analytics, databases. We're talking rocks at later today. Right. Um uh, document databases like Mongo search database like elastic. And so what happens is there's not one giant market like databases, there's a database market And 30, 40 sub markets that serve the needs developers. So the Great News is cloud has reduced the cost and create something that new for developers. Um also the good news is for a start up you can find plenty of white speeds solving a pain point, very specific to a different type of problem >>and you can sequence up to power law to this. I love the power of a metaphor, you know, used to be a very thin neck note no torso and then a long tail. But now as you're pointing out this expansion of the fat tail of services, but also there's big tam's and markets available at the top of the power law where you see coming like snowflake essentially take on the data warehousing market by basically sitting on amazon re factoring with new services and then getting a flywheel completely changing the economic unit economics completely changing the consumption model completely changing the value proposition >>literally you >>get Snowflake has created like a storm, create a hole, that mode or that castle wall against red shift. Then companies like rock set do your real time analytics is Russian right behind snowflakes saying, hey snowflake is great for data warehouse but it's not fast enough for real time analytics. Let me give you something new to your, to your parallel argument. Even the big optic snowflake have created kind of a wake behind them that created even more white space for Gaza rock set. So that's exciting for guys like me and >>you. And then also as we were talking about our last episode two or quarter two of our showcase. Um, from a VC came on, it's like the old shelf where you didn't know if a company's successful until they had to return the inventory now with cloud you if you're not successful, you know it right away. It's like there's no debate. Like, I mean you're either winning or not. This is like that's so instrumented so a company can have a good better mousetrap and win and fill the white space and then move up. >>It goes both ways. The cloud vendor, the big three amazon google and Azure for sure. They instrument their own class. They know john which ecosystem partners doing well in which ecosystems doing poorly and they hear from the customers exactly what they want. So it goes both ways they can weaponize that. And just as well as you started to weaponize that info >>and that's the big argument of do that snowflake still pays the amazon bills. They're still there. So again, repatriation comes back, That's a big conversation that's come up. What's your quick take on that? Because if you're gonna have a castle in the cloud, then you're gonna bring it back to land. I mean, what's that dynamic? Where do you see that compete? Because on one hand is innovation. The other ones maybe cost efficiency. Is that a growth indicator slow down? What's your view on the movement from and to the cloud? >>I think there's probably three forces you're finding here. One is the cost advantage in the scale advantage of cloud so that I think has been going for the past eight years, there's a repatriation movement for a certain subset of customers, I think for cost purposes makes sense. I think that's a tiny handful that believe they can actually run things better than a cloud. The third thing we're seeing around repatriation is not necessary against cloud, but you're gonna see more decentralized clouds and things pushed to the edge. Right? So you look at companies like Cloudflare Fastly or a company that we're investing in Cato networks. All ideas focus on secure access at the edge. And so I think that's not the repatriation of my own data center, which is kind of a disaggregated of cloud from one giant monolithic cloud, like AWS east or like a google region in europe to multiple smaller clouds for governance purposes, security purposes or legacy purposes. >>So I'm looking at my notes here, looking down on the screen here for this to read this because it's uh to cut and paste from your thesis on the cloud. The excellent cloud. The of the $38 billion invested this quarter. Um Ai and ml number one, um analytics. Number two, security number three. Actually, security number one. But you can see the bubbles here. So all those are data problems I need to ask you. I see data is hot data as intellectual property. How do you look at that? Because we've been reporting on this and we just started the cube conversation around workflows as intellectual property. If you have scale and your motives in the cloud. You could argue that data and the workflows around those data streams is intellectual property. It's a protocol >>I believe both are. And they just kind of go hand in hand like peanut butter and jelly. Right? So data for sure. I. P. So if you know people talk about days in the oil, the new resource. That's largely true because of powers a bunch. But the workflow to your point john is sticky because every company is a unique snowflake right? Like the process used to run the cube and your business different how we run our business. So if you can build a workflow that leverages the data, that's super sticky. So in terms of switching costs, if my work is very bespoke to your business, then I think that's competitive advantage. >>Well certainly your workflow is a lot different than the cube. You guys just a lot of billions of dollars in capital. We're talking to all the people out here jerry. Great to have you on final thought on your thesis. Where does it go from here? What's been the reaction? Uh No, you put it out there. Great love the restart. Think you're on point on this one. Where did we go from here? >>We have to follow pieces um in the near term one around, you know, deep diver on open source. So look out for that pretty soon and how that's been a powerful strategy a second. Is this kind of just aggregation of the cloud be a Blockchain and you know, decentralized apps, be edge applications. So that's in the near term two more pieces of, of deep dive we're doing. And then the goal here is to update this on a quarterly and annual basis. So we're getting submissions from founders that wanted to say, hey, you missed us or he screwed up here. We got the big cloud vendors saying, Hey jerry, we just lost his new things. So our goal here is to update this every single year and then probably do look back saying, okay, uh, where were we wrong? We're right. And then let's say the castle clouds 2022. We'll see the difference were the more unicorns were there more services were the IPO's happening. So look for some short term work from us on analytics, like around open source and clouds. And then next year we hope that all of this forward saying, Hey, you have two year, what's happening? What's changing? >>Great stuff and, and congratulations on the southern news. You guys put another half a billion dollars into early, early stage, which is your roots. Are you still doing a lot of great investments in a lot of unicorns. Congratulations that. Great luck on the team. Thanks for coming on and congratulations you nailed this one. I think I'm gonna look back and say that this is a pretty seminal piece of work here. Thanks for sharing. >>Thanks john thanks for having us. >>Okay. Okay. This is the cube here and 81 startup showcase. We're about to get going in on all the hot companies closing out the kino lisa uh, see jerry Chen cube alumni. He was right from day one. We've been riffing on this, but he nails it here. I think Greylock is lucky to have him as a general partner. He's done great deals, but I think he's hitting the next wave big. This is, this is huge. >>I was listening to you guys talking thinking if if you had a crystal ball back in 2013, some of the things Jerry saying now his narrative now, what did he have a crystal >>ball? He did. I mean he could be a cuBA host and I could be a venture capital. We were both right. I think so. We could have been, you know, doing that together now and all serious now. He was right. I mean, we talked off camera about who's the next amazon who's going to challenge amazon and Andy Jassy was quoted many times in the queue by saying, you know, he was surprised that it took so long for people to figure out what they were doing. Okay, jerry was that VM where he had visibility into the cloud. He saw amazon right away like we did like this is a winning formula and so he was really out front on this one. >>Well in the investments that they're making in these unicorns is exciting. They have this, this lens that they're able to see the opportunities there almost before anybody else can. And finding more white space where we didn't even know there was any. >>Yeah. And what's interesting about the report I'm gonna dig into and I want to get to him while he's on camera because it's a great report, but He says it's like 500 services I think Amazon has 5000. So how you define services as an interesting thing and a lot of amazon services that they have as your doesn't have and vice versa, they do call that out. So I find the report interesting. It's gonna be a feature game in the future between clouds the big three. They're gonna say we do this, you're starting to see the formation, Google's much more developer oriented. Amazon is much more stronger in the governance area with data obviously as he pointed out, they have such experience Microsoft, not so much their developer cloud and more office, not so much on the government's side. So that that's an indicator of my, my opinion of kind of where they rank. So including the number one is still amazon web services as your long second place, way behind google, right behind Azure. So we'll see how the horses come in, >>right. And it's also kind of speaks to the hybrid world in which we're living the hybrid multi cloud world in which many companies are living as companies to not just survive in the last year and a half, but to thrive and really have to become data companies and leverage that data as a competitive advantage to be able to unlock the value of it. And a lot of these startups that we talked to in the showcase are talking about how they're helping organizations unlock that data value. As jerry said, it is the new oil, it's the new gold. Not unless you can unlock that value faster than your competition. >>Yeah, well, I'm just super excited. We got a great day ahead of us with with all the cots startups. And then at the end day, Volonte is gonna interview, hello, fresh practitioners, We're gonna close it out every episode now, we're going to do with the closing practitioner. We try to get jpmorgan chase data measures. The hottest area right now in the enterprise data is new competitive advantage. We know that data workflows are now intellectual property. You're starting to see data really factoring into these applications now as a key aspect of the competitive advantage and the value creation. So companies that are smart are investing heavily in that and the ones that are kind of slow on the uptake are lagging the market and just trying to figure it out. So you start to see that transition and you're starting to see people fall away now from the fact that they're not gonna make it right, You're starting to, you know, you can look at look at any happens saying how much ai is really in there. Real ai what's their data strategy and you almost squint through that and go, okay, that's gonna be losing application. >>Well the winners are making it a board level conversation >>And security isn't built in. Great to have you on this morning kicking it off. Thanks John Okay, we're going to go into the next set of the program at 10:00 we're going to move into the breakouts. Check out the companies is three tracks in there. We have an awesome track on devops pure devops. We've got the data and analytics and we got the cloud management and just to run down real quick check out the sis dig harness. Io system is doing great, securing devops harness. IO modern software delivery platform, White Source. They're preventing and remediating the rest of the internet for them for the company's that's a really interesting and lumbago, effortless acres land and monitoring functions, server list super hot. And of course hacker one is always great doing a lot of great missions and and bounties you see those success continue to send i O there in Palo alto changing the game on data engineering and data pipe lining. Okay. Data driven another new platform, horizontally scalable and of course thought spot ai driven kind of a search paradigm and of course rock set jerry Chen's companies here and press are all doing great in the analytics and then the cloud management cost side 80 operations day to operate. Ops ramps and ops multi cloud are all there and sunny, all all going to present. So check them out. This is the Cubes Adria's startup showcase episode three.

>>Hello and welcome today's cube presentation of eight of us startup showcase. I'm john for your host highlighting the hottest companies and devops data analytics and cloud management lisa martin and David want are here to kick it off. We've got a great program for you again. This is our, our new community event model where we're doing every quarter, we have every new episode, this is quarter three this year or episode three, season one of the hottest cloud startups and we're gonna be featured. Then we're gonna do a keynote package and then 15 countries will present their story, Go check them out and then have a closing keynote with a practitioner and we've got some great lineups, lisa Dave, great to see you. Thanks for joining me. Hey >>guys, great to be here. >>So David got to ask you, you know, back in events last night we're at the 14 it's event where they had the golf PGA championship with the cube Now we got the hybrid model, This is the new normal. We're in, we got these great companies were showcasing them. What's your take? >>Well, you're right. I mean, I think there's a combination of things. We're seeing some live shows. We saw what we did with at mobile world Congress. We did the show with AWS storage day where it was, we were at the spheres, there was no, there was a live audience, but they weren't there physically. It was just virtual and yeah, so, and I just got pained about reinvent. Hey Dave, you gotta make your flights. So I'm making my flights >>were gonna be at the amazon web services, public sector summit next week. At least a lot, a lot of cloud convergence going on here. We got many companies being featured here that we spoke with the Ceo and their top people cloud management, devops data, nelson security. Really cutting edge companies, >>yes, cutting edge companies who are all focused on acceleration. We've talked about the acceleration of digital transformation the last 18 months and we've seen a tremendous amount of acceleration in innovation with what these startups are doing. We've talked to like you said, there's, there's C suite, we've also talked to their customers about how they are innovating so quickly with this hybrid environment, this remote work and we've talked a lot about security in the last week or so. You mentioned that we were at Fortinet cybersecurity skills gap. What some of these companies are doing with automation for example, to help shorten that gap, which is a big opportunity for the >>job market. Great stuff. Dave so the format of this event, you're going to have a fireside chat with the practitioner, we'd like to end these programs with a great experienced practitioner cutting edge in data february. The beginning lisa are gonna be kicking off with of course Jeff bar to give us the update on what's going on AWS and then a special presentation from Emily Freeman who is the author of devops for dummies, she's introducing new content. The revolution in devops devops two point oh and of course jerry Chen from Greylock cube alumni is going to come on and talk about his new thesis castles in the cloud creating moats at cloud scale. We've got a great lineup of people and so the front ends can be great. Dave give us a little preview of what people can expect at the end of the fireside chat. >>Well at the highest level john I've always said we're entering that sort of third great wave of cloud. First wave was experimentation. The second big wave was migration. The third wave of integration, Deep business integration and what you're going to hear from Hello Fresh today is how they like many companies that started early last decade. They started with an on prem Hadoop system and then of course we all know what happened is S three essentially took the knees out from, from the on prem Hadoop market lowered costs, brought things into the cloud and what Hello Fresh is doing is they're transforming from that legacy Hadoop system into its running on AWS but into a data mess, you know, it's a passionate topic of mine. Hello Fresh was scaling they realized that they couldn't keep up so they had to rethink their entire data architecture and they built it around data mesh Clements key and christoph Soewandi gonna explain how they actually did that are on a journey or decentralized data measure >>it and your posts have been awesome on data measure. We get a lot of traction. Certainly you're breaking analysis for the folks watching check out David Landes, Breaking analysis every week, highlighting the cutting edge trends in tech Dave. We're gonna see you later, lisa and I are gonna be here in the morning talking about with Emily. We got Jeff Barr teed up. Dave. Thanks for coming on. Looking forward to fireside chat lisa. We'll see you when Emily comes back on. But we're gonna go to Jeff bar right now for Dave and I are gonna interview Jeff. Mm >>Hey Jeff, >>here he is. Hey, how are you? How's it >>going really well. >>So I gotta ask you, the reinvent is on, everyone wants to know that's happening right. We're good with Reinvent. >>Reinvent is happening. I've got my hotel and actually listening today, if I just remembered, I still need to actually book my flights. I've got my to do list on my desk and I do need to get my flights. Uh, really looking forward to it. >>I can't wait to see the all the announcements and blog posts. We're gonna, we're gonna hear from jerry Chen later. I love the after on our next event. Get your reaction to this castle and castles in the cloud where competitive advantages can be built in the cloud. We're seeing examples of that. But first I gotta ask you give us an update of what's going on. The ap and ecosystem has been an incredible uh, celebration these past couple weeks, >>so, so a lot of different things happening and the interesting thing to me is that as part of my job, I often think that I'm effectively living in the future because I get to see all this really cool stuff that we're building just a little bit before our customers get to, and so I'm always thinking okay, here I am now, and what's the world going to be like in a couple of weeks to a month or two when these launches? I'm working on actually get out the door and that, that's always really, really fun, just kind of getting that, that little edge into where we're going, but this year was a little interesting because we had to really significant birthdays, we had the 15 year anniversary of both EC two and S three and we're so focused on innovating and moving forward, that it's actually pretty rare for us at Aws to look back and say, wow, we've actually done all these amazing things in in the last 15 years, >>you know, it's kind of cool Jeff, if I may is is, you know, of course in the early days everybody said, well, a place for startup is a W. S and now the great thing about the startup showcases, we're seeing the startups that are very near, or some of them have even reached escape velocity, so they're not, they're not tiny little companies anymore, they're in their transforming their respective industries, >>they really are and I think that as they start ups grow, they really start to lean into the power of the cloud. They as they start to think, okay, we've we've got our basic infrastructure in place, we've got, we were serving data, we're serving up a few customers, everything is actually working pretty well for us. We've got our fundamental model proven out now, we can invest in publicity and marketing and scaling and but they don't have to think about what's happening behind the scenes. They just if they've got their auto scaling or if they're survivalists, the infrastructure simply grows to meet their demand and it's it's just a lot less things that they have to worry about. They can focus on the fun part of their business which is actually listening to customers and building up an awesome business >>Jeff as you guys are putting together all the big pre reinvented, knows a lot of stuff that goes on prior as well and they say all the big good stuff to reinvent. But you start to see some themes emerged this year. One of them is modernization of applications, the speed of application development in the cloud with the cloud scale devops personas, whatever persona you want to talk about but basically speed the speed of of the app developers where other departments have been slowing things down, I won't say name names, but security group and I t I mean I shouldn't have said that but only kidding but no but seriously people want in minutes and seconds now not days or weeks. You know whether it's policy. What are some of the trends that you're seeing around this this year as we get into some of the new stuff coming out >>So Dave customers really do want speed and for we've actually encapsulate this for a long time in amazon in what we call the bias for action leadership principle where we just need to jump in and move forward and and make things happen. A lot of customers look at that and they say yes this is great. We need to have the same bias fraction. Some do. Some are still trying to figure out exactly how to put it into play. And they absolutely for sure need to pay attention to security. They need to respect the past and make sure that whatever they're doing is in line with I. T. But they do want to move forward. And the interesting thing that I see time and time again is it's not simply about let's adopt a new technology. It's how do we how do we keep our workforce engaged? How do we make sure that they've got the right training? How do we bring our our I. T. Team along for this. Hopefully new and fun and exciting journey where they get to learn some interesting new technologies they've got all this very much accumulated business knowledge they still want to put to use, maybe they're a little bit apprehensive about something brand new and they hear about the cloud, but there by and large, they really want to move forward. They just need a little bit of help to make it happen real >>good guys. One of the things you're gonna hear today, we're talking about speed traditionally going fast. Oftentimes you meant you have to sacrifice some things on quality and what you're going to hear from some of the startups today is how they're addressing that to automation and modern devoPS technologies and sort of rethinking that whole application development approach. That's something I'm really excited to see organization is beginning to adopt so they don't have to make that tradeoff anymore. >>Yeah, I would never want to see someone sacrifice quality, but I do think that iterating very quickly and using the best of devoPS principles to be able to iterate incredibly quickly and get that first launch out there and then listen with both ears just as much as you can, Everything. You hear iterate really quickly to meet those needs in, in hours and days, not months, quarters or years. >>Great stuff. Chef and a lot of the companies were featuring here in the startup showcase represent that new kind of thinking, um, systems thinking as well as you know, the cloud scale and again and it's finally here, the revolution of deVOps is going to the next generation and uh, we're excited to have Emily Freeman who's going to come on and give a little preview for her new talk on this revolution. So Jeff, thank you for coming on, appreciate you sharing the update here on the cube. Happy >>to be. I'm actually really looking forward to hearing from Emily. >>Yeah, it's great. Great. Looking forward to the talk.