>> Announcer: Live from Orlando Florida, it's theCUBE, covering Microsoft Ignite. Brought to you by Cohesity. >> Good morning everyone. You are watching theCUBE's live coverage of Microsoft Ignite 2019 here in Orlando, Florida. I'm your host Rebecca Knight, co-hosting alongside of Stu Miniman. We are joined by Donovan Brown. He is the Principal Cloud Advocate Manager of Methods and Practices Organizations at Microsoft. (laughing) A mouthful of a title. >> Yes. >> Rebecca: We are thrilled to welcome you on. >> Thank you so much. >> You are the man in the black shirt. >> I have been dubbed the man in the black shirt. >> So tell us what that's all about. You're absolutely famous. Whenever we were saying Donovan Brown's going to be here. "The man in the black shirt?" >> Yes. >> So what's that about? >> So it was interesting. The first time I ever got to keynote in an event was in New York in 2015 for Scott Guthrie, the guy who only wears a red shirt. And I remember, I was literally, and this is no exaggeration, wearing this exact black shirt, right, because I bring it with me and I can tell because the tag in the back is worn more than the other black shirts I have just like this one. And I bring this one out for big events because I was in a keynote yesterday and I knew I was going to be on your show today. And I wore it and it looked good on camera. I felt really good. I'm an ex-athlete. We're very superstitious. I'm like I have to wear that shirt in every keynote that I do from now on because if you look further back, you'll see me in blue shirts and all other colored shirts. But from that day forward, it's going to be hard pressed for you to find me on camera on stage without this black shirt on or a black shirt of some type. And there's a really cool story about the black shirt that was. This is what\ I knew it was a thing. So I pack about six or seven black shirts in every luggage. I'm flying overseas to Germany to go Kampf to do a keynote for, I think it was Azure Saturday. Flights were really messed up. they had to check my bag which makes me very uncomfortable because they lose stuff. I'm not too worried about it, it'll be okay. Check my bag, get to Europe. They've been advertising that the black shirt is coming for months and they lose my luggage. And I am now, heart's pounding out of my chest. (laughing) We go to the airport. I'm shopping in the airport because I don't even have luggage. I cannot find a black shirt and I am just thinking this is devastating. How am I going to go to a conference who's been promoting "the black shirt's coming" not wearing a black shirt? And my luggage does not show up. I show up at the event I'm thinking okay, maybe I'll get lucky and the actual conference shirt will be black and then we're all good. I walk in and all I see are white shirts. I'm like this could not be worse. And then now the speakers show up. They're wearing blue shirts, I'm like this cannot be happening. So I'm depressed, I'm walking to the back and everyone's starts saying, "Donovan's here, Donovan's here." And I'm looking to find my polo, my blue polo I'm going to put on. They're like no, no, no, no Donovan. They printed one black shirt just for me. I was like oh my goodness, this is so awesome. So I put the black shirt on, then I put a jacket on over it and I go out and I tell the story of how hard it was to get here, that they lost my luggage, I'm not myself without a black shirt. But this team had my back. And when I unzipped my shirt, the whole place just starts clapping 'cause I'm wearing >> Oh, I love it. >> a black shirt. >> Exactly. So now to be seen without a black shirt is weird. Jessica Dean works for me. We were in Singapore together and it was an off day. So I just wore a normal shirt. She had to take a double take, "Oh no, is that Donovan, my manager "'cause he's not wearing a black shirt?" I don't wear them all the time but if I'm on camera, on stage you're going to see me in a black shirt. >> Rebecca: All right, I like it. >> Well, Donovan, great story. Your team, Methods and Practices makes up a broad spectrum of activities and was relatively recently rebranded. >> Yeah. >> We've talked to some of your team members on theCUBE before, so tell our audience a little bit about the bridges Microsoft's building to help the people. >> Great. No, so that's been great. Originally, I built a team called The League. Right, there's a really small group of just DevOps focused diehards. And we still exist. A matter of fact, we're doing a meet and greet tonight at 4:30 where you can come and meet all five of the original League members. Eventually, I got tasked with a much bigger team. I tell the story. I was in Norway, I went to sleep, I had four direct reports. I literally woke up and I had 20 people reporting to me and I'm like what just happened? And the team's spanned out a lot more than just DevOps. So having it branded as the DevOps Guy doesn't really yield very well for people who aren't diehard DevOps people. And what we feared was, "Donovan there's people who are afraid of DevOps "who now report to you." You can't be that DevOps guy anymore. You have to broaden what you do so that you can actually focus on the IT pros in the world, the modern operations people, the lift and shift with Jeremy, with what Jeramiah's doing for me right, with the lift and shift of workloads . And you still have to own DevOps. So what I did is I pulled back, reduced my direct reports to four and now I have teams underneath me. Abel Wang now runs DevOps. He's going to be the new DevOps guy for me. Jeramiah runs our lift and shift. Rick Klaus or you know the Hat, he runs all my IT Pro and then Emily who's just an amazing speaker for us, runs all of my modern operations. So we span those four big areas right. Modern operations which is sort of like the ops side of DevOps, IT pros which are the low level infrastructure, diehard Windows server admins and then we have DevOps run by Abel which is still, the majority of The League is over there. And then we have obviously the IT pros, modern ops, DevOps and then the left and shift with Jeramiah. >> I'd like to speak a little bit as to why you've got these different groups? How do you share information across the teams but you know really meet customers where they are and help them along 'cause my background's infrastructure. >> Donovan: Sure. >> And that DevOps, was like that religion pounding at you, that absolutely, I mean, I've got a closet full of hoodies but I'm not a developer. Understand? >> Understood. (laughs) It's interesting because when you look at where our customers are today, getting into the cloud is not something you do overnight. It takes lots of steps. You might start with a lift and shift, right? You might start with just adding some Azure in a hybrid scenario to your on-prem scenario. So my IT pros are looking after that group of people that they're still on prem majority, they're trying to dip those toes into the cloud. They want to start using things like file shares or backups or something that they can have, disaster recovery offsite while they're still running the majority of what they're doing on-prem. So there's always an Azure pool to all four of the teams that I actually run. But I need them to take care of where our customers are today and it's not just force them to be where we want them tomorrow and they're not ready to go there. So it's kind of interesting that my team's kind of have every one of those stages of migration from I'm on-prem, do I need to lift and shift do I need to do modern operations, do I need to be doing full-blown DevOps pull all up? So, I think it's a nice group of people that kind of fit the spectrum of where our customers are going to be taking that journey from where they are to enter the cloud. So I love it. >> One of the things you said was getting to the cloud doesn't happen overnight. >> No, it does not. >> Well, you can say that again because there is still a lot of skepticism and reluctance and nervousness. How do you, we talked so much about this digital transformation and technology is not the hard part. It's the people that pose the biggest challenges to actually making it happen. >> Donovan: Right. >> So we're talking about meeting customers where they are in terms of the tools they need. But where do you meet them in terms of where they are just in their approach and their mindset, in terms of their cloud readiness? >> You listen. Believe it or not, you can't just go and tell people something. You need to listen to them, find out what hurts and then start with that one thing is what I tell people. Focus on what hurts the most first. Don't do a big bang change of any type. I think that's a recipe for disaster. There's too many variables that could go wrong. But when I sit down with a customer is like tell me where you are, tell me what hurts, like what are you afraid of? Is it a compliancies? Let me go get you in contact with someone who can tell you about all the comp. We have over 90 certifications on Azure. Let me. whatever your fear is, I bet you I can get you in touch with someone that's going to help you get past that fear. But I don't say just lift, shift, move it all like stop wasting, like no. Let's focus on that one thing. And what you're going to do is you're going to start to build confidence and trust with that customer. And they know that I'm not there just trying to rip and replace you and get out high levels of ACR. I'm trying to succeed with you, right, empower every person in every organization on the planet to achieve more. You do that by teaching them first, by helping them first. You can sell them last, right? You shouldn't have to sell them at all once they trust that what we we're trying to do together is partner with you. I look at every customer more as a partner than a customer, like how can I come with you and we do better things together than either one of us could have done apart. >> You're a cloud psychologist? Almost, right because I always put myself in their position. If I was a customer, what would I want that vendor to do for me? How would they make me feel comfortable and that's the way that I lead. Right, I don't want you going in there selling anything right. We're here to educate them and if we're doing our job on the product side, the answer is going to be obvious that you need to be coming with us to Azure. >> All right. So Donovan, you mentioned you used to be an athlete? >> Donovan: Yes. >> According to your bio, you're still a bit of an athlete. >> Donovan: A little bit, a little bit. >> So there's the professional air hockey thing which has a tie to something going on with the field. Give us a little bit of background. I've got an air hockey table in my basement. Any tips for those of us that aren't, you know? You were ranked 11th in the world. >> At one point, yeah, though I went to the World Championships. It was interesting because that World Championships I wasn't prepared. My wife plays as well. We were like we're just going to go, we're going to support the tournament. We had no expectations whatsoever. Next thing you know, I'm in the round playing for the top 10 in the world. And that's when it got too serious for me and I lost, because I started taking it too serious. I put too much pressure on myself. But professionally, air hockey's like professional foosball or pool. It's grown men taking this sport way too seriously. It's the way I'd describe it. It is not what you see at Chuck E. Cheese. And what was interesting is Damien Brady who works for me found that there is an AI operated air hockey table here on this floor. And my wife was like, oh my gosh, we have to find this machine. Someone tape Donovan playing it. Six seconds later, my first shot I scored it. And I just looked at the poor people who built it and I'm like yeah, I'm a professional air hockey player. This thing is so not ready for professional time but they took down all my information and said we'd love to consult with you. I said I'd love to consult with you too because this could be a lot of fun. Maybe also a great way for professionals to practice, right, because you don't always have someone who's willing to play hours and hours which it takes to get at the professional level. But to have an AI system that I could even teach up my attack, forcing me to play outside of my comfort zone, to try something other than a left wall under or right well over but have to do more cuts because it knows to search for that. I can see a lot of great applications for the professionalized player with this type of AI. It would actually get a lot better. Literally, someone behind me started laughing. "That didn't take long" because it in six seconds I had scored on it already. I'm like okay, I was hoping it was going to be harder than this. >> I'm thinking back to our Dave Cahill interview of AI for everyone, and this is AI for professional air hockey players. >> It is and in one of my demos, Kendra Havens showed AI inside of your IDE. And I remember I tell the story that I remember I started writing software back in the 90s. I remember driving to a software store. You remember we used to have to drive and you'd buy a box and the box would be really heavy because the manuals are in there, and not to mention a stack of floppy discs that you're going to spend hours putting in your computer. And I bought visual C++ 1.52 was my first compiler. I remember going home so excited. And it had like syntax highlighting and that was like this cool new thing and you had all these great breakpoints and line numbers. And now Kendra's on stage typing this repetitives task and then the editor stops her and says, "It looks like you need to do this a little bit more. "You want me to do this for you?" And I'm like what just happened? This is not syntax highlighting. This is literally watching what you do, identifying a repetitive task, seeing the pattern in your code and suggesting that I can finish writing this code for you. It's unbelievable. >> You bring up a great point. Back when I used to write, it was programming. >> Yes. >> And we said programming was you learn the structure, you learn the logic and you write all the lines of what's going to be there. Coding on the other hand usually is taking something that is there, pulling in the pieces, making the modification. >> Right. >> It sounds like we're talking about even the next generation where the intelligence is going to take over. >> It's built right inside of your IDE which is amazing. You were talking about artificial intelligence, not only for the air hockey. But I love the fact that in Azure, we have so many cognitive services and you just like pick these off the shelf. When I wanted to learn artificial intelligence when I was in the university, you had to go for another language called Lisp. That scared half of us away from artificial intelligence because you have to learn another language just to go do this cool thing that back then was very difficult to do and you could barely get it to play chess, let alone play air hockey. But today, cognitive services search, decision-making, chat bots, they're so easy. Anyone, even a non developer, can start adding the power of AI into their products thanks to the stuff that we're doing in Azure. And this is just lighting up all these new possibilities for us, air hockey, drones that are able to put out fires. I've just seen amazing stuff where they're able to use AI and they add it with as little as two lines of code. And all of a sudden, your app is so much more powerful than it was before. >> Donovan, one of the things that really struck me over the last couple years, looking at Microsoft, is it used to be, you'd think about the Microsoft stack. When I think about developers it's like, oh wait are you a .NET person? Well, you're going to be there. The keynote this morning, one of your team members was on stage with Scott Hanselman and was you know choose your language, choose your tools and you're going to have all of them out there. So talk to us a little bit about that transition inside Microsoft. >> Sure. One of the mantras that I've been saying for a while is "any language, any platform". No one believes me . So I had to start proving it. I'm like so I got on stage one year. It was interesting and this is a really rough year because I flew with three laptops. One had Mac OS on it, one of them had Linux on it and one of them had Windows. And what I did is I created a voting app and what I would do is I'd get on stage and say okay everyone that's in this session, go to this URL and start voting. They got to pick what computer I use, they got to pick what language I programmed in and they got to pick where in Azure-eyed I deployed it to. Was it to an app service was it to Docker? I'm like I'm going to prove to you I can do any language in any platform. So I honestly did not know what demo I was going to do. 20 minutes later, after showing them some slides, I would go back to the app and say what did you pick? And I would move that computer in front of me and right there on stage completely create a complete CI/CD pipeline for the language that that audience chose to whatever resources that they wanted on whatever platform that they wanted me. Was like, have I proven this to you enough or not? And I did that demo for an entire year. Any language that you want me to program in and any platform you want me to target, I'm going to do that right now and I don't even know what it's going to be. You're going to choose it for me. I can't remember the last time I did a .NET demo on stage. I did Python this week when I was on stage with Jason Zander. I saw a lot of Python and Go and other demos this year. We love .NET. Don't get us wrong but everyone knows we can .NET. What we're trying to prove right now is that we can do a lot of other things. It does not matter what language you program in. It does not matter where you want to deploy. Microsoft is here to help you. It's a company created by developers and we're still obsessed with developers, not just .NET developers, all developers even the citizen developer which is a developer which is a developer who doesn't have to see the code anymore but wants to be able to add that value to what they're doing in their organization. So if you're a developer, Microsoft is here to help full-stop. It's a powerful mission and a powerful message that you are really empowering everyone here. >> Donovan: Right. >> Excellent. >> And how many developers only program in one language now, right? I thought I remember I used to be a C++ programmer and I thought that was it, right. I knew the best language, I knew the fastest language. And then all of a sudden, I knew CSharp and I knew Java and I knew JavaScript and I brought a lot of PowerShell right now and I write it on and noticed like wow, no one knows one language. But I never leave Visual Studio code. I deploy all my workloads into Azure. I didn't have to change my infrastructure or my tools to switch languages. I just switched languages that fit whatever the problem was that I was trying to solve. So I live the mantra that we tell our customers. I don't just do .NET development. Although I love .NET and it's my go-to language if I'm starting from scratch but sometimes I'm going to go help in an open source project that's written in some other language and I want to be able to help them. With Visual Studio online, we made that extremely easy. I don't even have to set up my development machine anymore. I can only click a link in a GitHub repository and the environment I need will be provisioned for me. I'll use it, check in my commits and then throw it away when I'm done. It's the world of being a developer now and I always giggle 'cause I'm thinking I had to drive to a store and buy my first compiler and now I can have an entire environment in minutes that is ready to rock and roll. It's just I wish I would learn how to program now and not when I was on bulletin boards asking for help and waiting three days for someone to respond. I didn't have Stack Overflow or search engines and things like that. It's just an amazing time to be a developer. >> Yes, indeed. Indeed it is Donovan Brown, the man in the black shirt. Thank you so much for coming on theCUBE. >> My pleasure. Thank you for having me. >> It was really fun. Thank you. >> Take care. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman. Stay tuned for more of theCUBE's live coverage of Microsoft Ignite. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hey, everyone, welcome back to Las Vegas, "theCube" is on our fourth day of covering AWS re:Invent, live from the Venetian Expo Center. This week has been amazing. We've created a ton of content, as you know, 'cause you've been watching. But, there's been north of 55,000 people here, hundreds of thousands online. We've had amazing conversations across the AWS ecosystem. Lisa Martin, Paul Gillan. Paul, what's your, kind of, take on day four of the conference? It's still highly packed. >> Oh, there's lots of people here. (laughs) >> Yep. Unusual for the final day of a conference. I think Werner Vogels, if I'm pronouncing it right kicked things off today when he talked about asymmetry and how the world is, you know, asymmetric. We build symmetric software, because it's convenient to do so, but asymmetric software actually scales and evolves much better. And I think that that was a conversation starter for a lot of what people are talking about here today, which is how the cloud changes the way we think about building software. >> Absolutely does. >> Our next guest, Holger Mueller, that's one of his key areas of focus. And Holger, welcome, thanks for joining us on the "theCube". >> Thanks for having me. >> What did you take away from the keynote this morning? >> Well, how do you feel on the final day of the marathon, right? We're like 23, 24 miles. Hit the ball yesterday, right? >> We are going strong Holger. And, of course, >> Yeah. >> you guys, we can either talk about business transformation with cloud or the World Cup. >> Or we can do both. >> The World Cup, hands down. World Cup. (Lisa laughs) Germany's out, I'm unbiased now. They just got eliminated. >> Spain is out now. >> What will the U.S. do against Netherlands tomorrow? >> They're going to win. What's your forecast? U.S. will win? >> They're going to win 2 to 1. >> What do you say, 2:1? >> I'm optimistic, but realistic. >> 3? >> I think Netherlands. >> Netherlands will win? >> 2 to nothing. >> Okay, I'll vote for the U.S.. >> Okay, okay >> 3:1 for the U.S.. >> Be optimistic. >> Root for the U.S.. >> Okay, I like that. >> Hope for the best wherever you work. >> Tomorrow you'll see how much soccer experts we are. >> If your prediction was right. (laughs) >> (laughs) Ja, ja. Or yours was right, right, so. Cool, no, but the event, I think the event is great to have 50,000 people. Biggest event of the year again, right? Not yet the 70,000 we had in 2019. But it's great to have the energy. I've never seen the show floor going all the way down like this, right? >> I haven't either. >> I've never seen that. I think it's a record. Often vendors get the space here and they have the keynote area, and the entertainment area, >> Yeah. >> and the food area, and then there's an exposition, right? This is packed. >> It's packed. >> Maybe it'll pay off. >> You don't see the big empty booths that you often see. >> Oh no. >> Exactly, exactly. You know, the white spaces and so on. >> No. >> Right. >> Which is a good thing. >> There's lots of energy, which is great. And today's, of course, the developer day, like you said before, right now Vogels' a rockstar in the developer community, right. Revered visionary on what has been built, right? And he's becoming a little professorial is my feeling, right. He had these moments before too, when it was justifying how AWS moved off the Oracle database about the importance of data warehouses and structures and why DynamoDB is better and so on. But, he had a large part of this too, and this coming right across the keynotes, right? Adam Selipsky talking about Antarctica, right? Scott against almonds and what went wrong. He didn't tell us, by the way, which often the tech winners forget. Scott banked on technology. He had motorized sleds, which failed after three miles. So, that's not the story to tell the technology. Let everything down. Everybody went back to ponies and horses and dogs. >> Maybe goes back to these asynchronous behavior. >> Yeah. >> The way of nature. >> And, yesterday, Swami talking about the bridges, right? The root bridges, right? >> Right. >> So, how could Werner pick up with his video at the beginning. >> Yeah. >> And then talk about space and other things? So I think it's important to educate about event-based architecture, right? And we see this massive transformation. Modern software has to be event based, right? Because, that's how things work and we didn't think like this before. I see this massive transformation in my other research area in other platforms about the HR space, where payrolls are being rebuilt completely. And payroll used to be one of the three peaks of ERP, right? You would size your ERP machine before the cloud to financial close, to run the payroll, and to do an MRP manufacturing run if you're manufacturing. God forbid you run those three at the same time. Your machine wouldn't be able to do that, right? So it was like start the engine, start the boosters, we are running payroll. And now the modern payroll designs like you see from ADP or from Ceridian, they're taking every payroll relevant event. You check in time wise, right? You go overtime, you take a day of vacation and right away they trigger and run the payroll, so it's up to date for you, up to date for you, which, in this economy, is super important, because we have more gig workers, we have more contractors, we have employees who are leaving suddenly, right? The great resignation, which is happening. So, from that perspective, it's the modern way of building software. So it's great to see Werner showing that. The dirty little secrets though is that is more efficient software for the cloud platform vendor too. Takes less resources, gets less committed things, so it's a much more scalable architecture. You can move the events, you can work asynchronously much better. And the biggest showcase, right? What's the biggest transactional showcase for an eventually consistent asynchronous transactional application? I know it's a mouthful, but we at Amazon, AWS, Amazon, right? You buy something on Amazon they tell you it's going to come tomorrow. >> Yep. >> They don't know it's going to come tomorrow by that time, because it's not transactionally consistent, right? We're just making every ERP vendor, who lives in transactional work, having nightmares of course, (Lisa laughs) but for them it's like, yes we have the delivery to promise, a promise to do that, right? But they come back to you and say, "Sorry, we couldn't make it, delivery didn't work and so on. It's going to be a new date. We are out of the product.", right? So these kind of event base asynchronous things are more and more what's going to scale around the world. It's going to be efficient for everybody, it's going to be better customer experience, better employee experience, ultimately better user experience, it's going to be better for the enterprise to build, but we have to learn to build it. So big announcement was to build our environment to build better eventful applications from today. >> Talk about... This is the first re:Invent... Well, actually, I'm sorry, it's the second re:Invent under Adam Selipsky. >> Right. Adam Selipsky, yep. >> But his first year. >> Right >> We're hearing a lot of momentum. What's your takeaway with what he delivered with the direction Amazon is going, their vision? >> Ja, I think compared to the Jassy times, right, we didn't see the hockey stick slide, right? With a number of innovations and releases. That was done in 2019 too, right? So I think it's a more pedestrian pace, which, ultimately, is good for everybody, because it means that when software vendors go slower, they do less width, but more depth. >> Yeah. >> And depth is what customers need. So Amazon's building more on the depth side, which is good news. I also think, and that's not official, right, but Adam Selipsky came from Tableau, right? >> Yeah. So he is a BI analytics guy. So it's no surprise we have three data lake offerings, right? Security data lake, we have a healthcare data lake and we have a supply chain data lake, right? Where all, again, the epigonos mentioned them I was like, "Oh, my god, Amazon's coming to supply chain.", but it's actually data lakes, which is an interesting part. But, I think it's not a surprise that someone who comes heavily out of the analytics BI world, it's off ringside, if I was pitching internally to him maybe I'd do something which he's is familiar with and I think that's what we see in the major announcement of his keynote on Tuesday. >> I mean, speaking of analytics, one of the big announcements early on was Amazon is trying to bridge the gap between Aurora. >> Yep. >> And Redshift. >> Right. >> And setting up for continuous pipelines, continuous integration. >> Right. >> Seems to be a trend that is common to all database players. I mean, Oracle is doing the same thing. SAP is doing the same thing. MariaDB. Do you see the distinction between transactional and analytical databases going away? >> It's coming together, right? Certainly coming together, from that perspective, but there's a fundamental different starting point, right? And with the big idea part, right? The universal database, which does everything for you in one system, whereas the suite of specialized databases, right? Oracle is in the classic Oracle database in the universal database camp. On the other side you have Amazon, which built a database. This is one of the first few Amazon re:Invents. It's my 10th where there was no new database announced. Right? >> No. >> So it was always add another one specially- >> I think they have enough. >> It's a great approach. They have enough, right? So it's a great approach to build something quick, which Amazon is all about. It's not so great when customers want to leverage things. And, ultimately, which I think with Selipsky, AWS is waking up to the enterprise saying, "I have all this different database and what is in them matters to me." >> Yeah. >> "So how can I get this better?" So no surprise between the two most popular database, Aurora and RDS. They're bring together the data with some out of the box parts. I think it's kind of, like, silly when Swami's saying, "Hey, no ETL.". (chuckles) Right? >> Yeah. >> There shouldn't be an ETL from the same vendor, right? There should be data pipes from that perspective anyway. So it looks like, on the overall value proposition database side, AWS is moving closer to the universal database on the Oracle side, right? Because, if you lift, of course, the universal database, under the hood, you see, well, there's different database there, different part there, you do something there, you have to configure stuff, which is also the case but it's one part of it, right, so. >> With that shift, talk about the value that's going to be in it for customers regardless of industry. >> Well, the value for customers is great, because when software vendors, or platform vendors, go in depth, you get more functionality, you get more maturity you get easier ways of setting up the whole things. You get ways of maintaining things. And you, ultimately, get lower TCO to build them, which is super important for enterprise. Because, here, this is the developer cloud, right? Developers love AWS. Developers are scarce, expensive. Might not be want to work for you, right? So developer velocity getting more done with same amount of developers, getting less done, less developers getting more done, is super crucial, super important. So this is all good news for enterprise banking on AWS and then providing them more efficiency, more automation, out of the box. >> Some of your customer conversations this week, talk to us about some of the feedback. What's the common denominator amongst customers right now? >> Customers are excited. First of all, like, first event, again in person, large, right? >> Yeah. >> People can travel, people meet each other, meet in person. They have a good handle around the complexity, which used to be a huge challenge in the past, because people say, "Do I do this?" I know so many CXOs saying, "Yeah, I want to build, say, something in IoT with AWS. The first reference built it like this, the next reference built it completely different. The third one built it completely different again. So now I'm doubting if my team has the skills to build things successfully, because will they be smart enough, like your teams, because there's no repetitiveness and that repetitiveness is going to be very important for AWS to come up with some higher packaging and version numbers.", right? But customers like that message. They like that things are working better together. They're not missing the big announcement, right? One of the traditional things of AWS would be, and they made it even proud, as a system, Jassy was saying, "If we look at the IT spend and we see something which is, like, high margin for us and not served well and we announced something there, right?" So Quick Start, Workspaces, where all liaisons where AWS went after traditional IT spend and had an offering. We haven't had this in 2019, we don't have them in 2020. Last year and didn't have it now. So something is changing on the AWS side. It's a little bit too early to figure out what, but they're not chewing off as many big things as they used in the past. >> Right. >> Yep. >> Did you get the sense that... Keith Townsend, from "The CTO Advisor", was on earlier. >> Yep. >> And he said he's been to many re:Invents, as you have, and he said that he got the sense that this is Amazon's chance to do a victory lap, as he called it. That this is a way for Amazon to reinforce the leadership cloud. >> Ja. >> And really, kind of, establish that nobody can come close to them, nobody can compete with them. >> You don't think that- >> I don't think that's at all... I mean, love Keith, he's a great guy, but I don't think that's the mindset at all, right? So, I mean, Jassy was always saying, "It's still the morning of the day in the cloud.", right? They're far away from being done. They're obsessed over being right. They do more work with the analysts. We think we got something right. And I like the passion, from that perspective. So I think Amazon's far from being complacent and the area, which is the biggest bit, right, the biggest. The only thing where Amazon truly has floundered, always floundered, is the AI space, right? So, 2018, Werner Vogels was doing more technical stuff that "Oh, this is all about linear regression.", right? And Amazon didn't start to put algorithms on silicon, right? And they have a three four trail and they didn't announce anything new here, behind Google who's been doing this for much, much longer than TPU platform, so. >> But they have now. >> They're keen aware. >> Yep. >> They now have three, or they own two of their own hardware platforms for AI. >> Right. >> They support the Intel platform. They seem to be catching up in that area. >> It's very hard to catch up on hardware, right? Because, there's release cycles, right? And just the volume that, just talking about the largest models that we have right now, to do with the language models, and Google is just doing a side note of saying, "Oh, we supported 50 less or 30 less, not little spoken languages, which I've never even heard of, because they're under banked and under supported and here's the language model, right? And I think it's all about little bit the organizational DNA of a company. I'm a strong believer in that. And, you have to remember AWS comes from the retail side, right? >> Yeah. >> Their roll out of data centers follows their retail strategy. Open secret, right? But, the same thing as the scale of the AI is very very different than if you take a look over at Google where it makes sense of the internet, right? The scale right away >> Right. >> is a solution, which is a good solution for some of the DNA of AWS. Also, Microsoft Azure is good. There has no chance to even get off the ship of that at Google, right? And these leaders with Google and it's not getting smaller, right? We didn't hear anything. I mean so much focused on data. Why do they focus so much on data? Because, data is the first step for AI. If AWS was doing a victory lap, data would've been done. They would own data, right? They would have a competitor to BigQuery Omni from the Google side to get data from the different clouds. There's crickets on that topic, right? So I think they know that they're catching up on the AI side, but it's really, really hard. It's not like in software where you can't acquire someone they could acquire in video. >> Not at Core Donovan. >> Might play a game, but that's not a good idea, right? So you can't, there's no shortcuts on the hardware side. As much as I'm a software guy and love software and don't like hardware, it's always a pain, right? There's no shortcuts there and there's nothing, which I think, has a new Artanium instance, of course, certainly, but they're not catching up. The distance is the same, yep. >> One of the things is funny, one of our guests, I think it was Tuesday, it was, it was right after Adam's keynote. >> Sure. >> Said that Adam Selipsky stood up on stage and talked about data for 52 minutes. >> Yeah. Right. >> It was timed, 52 minutes. >> Right. >> Huge emphasis on that. One of the things that Adam said to John Furrier when they were able to sit down >> Yeah >> a week or so ago at an event preview, was that CIOs and CEOs are not coming to Adam to talk about technology. They want to talk about transformation. They want to talk about business transformation. >> Sure, yes, yes. >> Talk to me in our last couple of minutes about what CEOs and CIOs are coming to you saying, "Holger, help us figure this out. We have to transform the business." >> Right. So we advise, I'm going quote our friends at Gartner, once the type A company. So we'll use technology aggressively, right? So take everything in the audience with a grain of salt, followers are the laggards, and so on. So for them, it's really the cusp of doing AI, right? Getting that data together. It has to be in the cloud. We live in the air of infinite computing. The cloud makes computing infinite, both from a storage, from a compute perspective, from an AI perspective, and then define new business models and create new best practices on top of that. Because, in the past, everything was fine out on premise, right? We talked about the (indistinct) size. Now in the cloud, it's just the business model to say, "Do I want to have a little more AI? Do I want a to run a little more? Will it give me the insight in the business?". So, that's the transformation that is happening, really. So, bringing your data together, this live conversation data, but not for bringing the data together. There's often the big win for the business for the first time to see the data. AWS is banking on that. The supply chain product, as an example. So many disparate systems, bring them them together. Big win for the business. But, the win for the business, ultimately, is when you change the paradigm from the user showing up to do something, to software doing stuff for us, right? >> Right. >> We have too much in this operator paradigm. If the user doesn't show up, doesn't find the click, doesn't find where to go, nothing happens. It can't be done in the 21st century, right? Software has to look over your shoulder. >> Good point. >> Understand one for you, autonomous self-driving systems. That's what CXOs, who're future looking, will be talked to come to AWS and all the other cloud vendors. >> Got it, last question for you. We're making a sizzle reel on Instagram. >> Yeah. >> If you had, like, a phrase, like, or a 30 second pitch that would describe re:Invent 2022 in the direction the company's going. What would that elevator pitch say? >> 30 second pitch? >> Yeah. >> All right, just timing. AWS is doing well. It's providing more depth, less breadth. Making things work together. It's catching up in some areas, has some interesting offerings, like the healthcare offering, the security data lake offering, which might change some things in the industry. It's staying the course and it's going strong. >> Ah, beautifully said, Holger. Thank you so much for joining Paul and me. >> Might have been too short. I don't know. (laughs) >> About 10 seconds left over. >> It was perfect, absolutely perfect. >> Thanks for having me. >> Perfect sizzle reel. >> Appreciate it. >> We appreciate your insights, what you're seeing this week, and the direction the company is going. We can't wait to see what happens in the next year. And, yeah. >> Thanks for having me. >> And of course, we've been on so many times. We know we're going to have you back. (laughs) >> Looking forward to it, thank you. >> All right, for Holger Mueller and Paul Gillan, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching "theCube", the leader in live enterprise and emerging tech coverage. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from Orlando, Florida, it's theCUBE, covering Microsoft Ignite, brought to you by Cohesity. >> Good morning, everyone, and welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage of Microsoft Ignite. 26,000 people from around the world have descended onto the Orlando, here in Orlando, for Microsoft Ignite. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, along with my cohost, Stu Miniman. We are joined by Christina Warren. She is the senior cloud advocate at Microsoft. Thank you so much for coming on the show. >> Thanks so much for having me. >> So I'd love to have you talk a little bit about your work as a senior cloud advocate. And you are responsible for a lot of the video strategy of Channel 9. >> Yeah, I am. So we have a cloud advocacy scene within developer relations, and most of our advocates are focused on either kind of a specific technology area or a specific audience. I'm a little bit different in that I am kind of of a, I call myself, I'm kind of a jack of all trades, master of none. So I go across a lot of different technology areas, but I look at our video content and our video strategies that we have at Channel 9 and our YouTube channel, Microsoft Developer, and some of our other channels, and I think about what are they types of stories we want to tell, what's content do we want to create for our audience, and how can we bring new developers into our ecosystem, as well. >> So what are those stories? I mean, what do you, what are you hearing from customers and what are you hearing also from colleagues at Microsoft that say, "Here's something that we need to tell the world about"? >> Yeah, so I think it's really interesting. I think there are a lot of things. One, there, we were talking a little bit before the show. There's kind of an insatiable, I think, need for a lot of people how to get started, whether it's getting started coding, if you're wanting to learn Python or learn JavaScript or something else, or even if you're just wanting to, you're starting to get into infrastructure, and you're wanting to learn, okay, how do I, you know, spin things up on the cloud. How do I set things up? And having some of that base fundamentals content is really important, but I also think sometimes it's about troubleshooting, and it's about figuring out what are the new services. What can this do for me? And I think a lot of times, when I think about the stories we want to tell, it's not, oh look at how great our service or our product is but it's this is designed to ease my pain points and make my life as a developer or an ops person easier. >> Christina, in the early days, everybody thought that, you know, the promise of cloud was it, it was supposed to be simple and inexpensive, and unfortunately, we learned it is neither of those things by default, so, you know, how do we help people to go from, you know, it's only 20% of applications today are in the cloud. You know, really simplicity is something we need to attack, and education is one of those areas that we need, you know. Give us some examples of some of the things that your team's doing to try to help us get to the majority of environments and work loads. >> Yeah, so a great example is, you know, .NET Core 3.0 launched a couple of months ago, and there's been a big push there with cloud-native apps and cloud-native applications, and so we have like a new video series, The Cloud Native Show, that my colleague Shane Boyer heads up, where they go through kind of all the steps of cloud-native development. And what's great about this is that you have existing .NET developers who have not, to your point, you know, 80% of applications are still not on the cloud, so they're going from that older environment. And then this is saying, you can take the skills you already have, but this is how you think about these things in this new environment. And for a lot of things when it comes to tech, if you're, the way I can always think about things is the next generation of developers, they don't know a non-cloud world. They're literally cloud-first, and I think that's an important thing for all of us to consider is that the next generation developers, the kids who are in high school now, the kids who are in college, they don't know, you know, the pain of having to provision and deal with their own, you know, servers or data centers. They've only known the cloud. And so, but that's an interesting opportunity both to create cloud-first content for them, but for the people who have been using things to say, okay, what you've already been doing, there are changes, but you're not starting from zero, and you can take some of the things you already know and just move that into, into the new world. >> Yeah, well, one of the interesting things we've found this week is that when we talk about engaging with Microsoft, it's not just .NET, it's not just Windows, or Azure. We talked yesterday with Donovan Brown and Scott Hanselman, and it's you know, any app, any language, your tools, pulling those off together. That's really challenging from, you know, creating content out there, because, you know, you're not going to recreate the entire internet there. So how do you tie in what you're doing with other resources and have that, you know, communication, collaboration out there in the industry? >> So a lot of it I think from what I do and what a lot of us do, I look, I used to be a journalist, so I look at what's interesting to me and what stories I would want to tell and what things I would want to know more about. And so, you know, Visual Studio Online, which was announced this week, massive announcement. I'm super excited about that. I am super excited about what that means, and I know that the audience is going to be excited about that. So I look at an announcement like that, and I'm like okay, what kind of content can we work with with those product teams to do? What sort of tutorials would I like to build? What things would I want to know more about if, if I were, you know, really experienced or just getting started? And I think some other areas are, for instance, Windows Subsystem for Linux 2, WSL 2 will be coming out in the future. That's a great opportunity for people who are both familiar with Linux and might not be familiar with Linux to kind of get started and using Windows as their development platform. And so when I see trends like that happening or things around, you know, containers, you know, Kubernetes, you know, containerize all the things, start thinking about, okay, what are the opportunities? What are cool examples? What would I want to see as somebody who, who's tuning in? That's what I always try to think about is what would. I just try to think about it like a journalist. You know, what would an interesting story be to tell from my perspective? What would I want to know more about? And then we can go from there and work with the product groups and work with some of the other teams to make sure that we can tell those stories. >> So, I'm curious. As a former journalist, you spent a decade as a digital editor and reporter and commentator. What made you want to make the leap to big tech? >> You know, okay, so media is not a great place right now. So that's number one. Number two, you know, I was very technical as a journalist, and it was interesting because when I made that transition, I then had to really actually shore up my tech skills. And I said, okay, I have some of the basics, but I really need to like double down and invest in myself and invest in learning more. But I always, even when I was a journalist, I loved telling developer stories, and I loved advocating for developers. Even when I was, I was working at really mainstream places like Mashable, where, you know, they would send me to developer conferences, and I wouldn't just go to the press things. I would want to go to the sessions and talk to the developers and find out, okay, what are you excited about? What are the opportunities you see to build things? What's coming around that has you excited? I've always loved that. And so when the opportunity presented itself for me to be able to do that at Microsoft, I was like, oh, you know, I'd never considered that before, but that's really interesting, and that would be a interesting way of maybe seeing if I can do something else. >> One of the skills that you, that you, is common between what you do now and as work as a journalist is breaking down this technical language and making it accessible for a wider audience, particularly at more mainstream publications. What is your advice for people in terms of how to do that? Because on this show, we have a lot of technically-minded people who can really go deep into technology. But how do you then make it accessible? What is, what is your advice? >> I always try to think of who is your muse as someone who might not know what's, all the intricacies that are going on but is an intelligent person that can understand. So for me, I always use my mom. Now this was easier when I was a tech journalist than it is what I do now because she understands even less what I do now, but I try to think about, okay, how would I explain this to her? She doesn't need to know all of the intricacies, the nitty-gritty. But how could I explain something to her that would be technically accurate but would get the basic idea? And I think a lot of times when it comes to breaking down content, it's just getting to the essence of what problem is this solving, what is this doing that's better or worse, and how does it do it and in starting from there. And it, a lot of times it just takes a lot of work, and you figure out as you go along what getting feedback from users, frankly, based on they might be asking more clarifying questions, or maybe they'll want to know more about something or less about something else. This is confusing for me. And just modulating that as you go along. >> Yeah, Christina, it makes me laugh, actually. When I started blogging, my mother was one of the people that would read, and she would say, "Oh, yes, I heard about this cloud thing before. "I watched it on NPR." It's a nuanced and complicated message. I actually, I roll my eyes a little bit back at the old Microsoft to the cloud videos there, because it was like it didn't resonate. It's the stories that you're telling these days. How do you balance there's the outcomes is, yes, we want to, you know, solve, you know, some of the great challenges and help healthcare, but, you know, underneath, there's some nitty-gritty developer and infrastructure things that get solved. How do you make sure there's the connections between, you know, what the products do and the outcomes? >> Yeah, that's really interesting. You're right, it is a challenge. I think the, the important thing here is not every message has to have all of those components. So you can tell different stories. You could tell one story that's just more focused on the outcome and is just more focused on the opportunity and what's happening in healthcare, and you could have another story that might be about this is what's going on underneath that is allowing those things to happen. >> Yeah, do you, do you have any favorite, you know, outcome stories from Microsoft? >> Gosh, you know, yesterday, during Scott Hanselman's developer keynote, he was, he was, I didn't even know about the Chipotle case study. That was so interesting to me and seeing what they're doing with the different technology. That's, that was a really, that's just the first one that comes to mind I thought was really cool. I'm really excited about the opportunities we have in Quantum, and I'm really excited about opportunities in healthcare because, you know, I think we've all been to the doctor, and we've seen how much IT and how much tech infrastructure could help not just the process of diagnosing and helping things but just, even just the minutia of data entry and record delivery and keeping track of everything. So there, a lot of the things we've done there have been really interesting. >> One of the things you said is you love telling developer stories, and I'm a journalist, too. And I cover entrepreneurs, and I feel the same way about telling entrepreneur stories. Talk about some of the common characteristics you've seen. I mean, we can't obviously generalize an entire population of people, but talk about what you have seen as sort of the common elements of their personalities and their approach to solving problems. >> Right, so I think it's interesting. When I think about any developers, which are a little bit different than enterprise devs, although there are some similarities, you know, you start with, and I know for me when I start first started coding and when I first started building websites and then other things, like, for me, I wanted to either solve a problem, or I wanted to create something that other people could, could see. And so a lot of times that probably one of the more commonalities is, you know, developers, they're in many ways wanting to scratch their own itch. I wanted to do something, I couldn't figure out how to do it, so I built this myself, found out other people were using it, too, and I added features to it. I mean, I think that's what's so great about open-source is that people have the opportunity to collaborate either contributing code or even, you know, doing bug reports and or sharing ideas. And so I, one of the more common elements is I wanted to do something, or I had a really interesting idea, and I didn't see anyone else doing it, and so I just decided to build it myself. It's not that different from entrepreneurs, right. Like it's I see, I see a business opportunity, I see a business I want to do, so I'm going to build it. And that's, wanting to build things is probably the most common thing I see. >> Yeah, Christina, any common conversations or things that are coming up that, you know, people that aren't at this show, you'd like to share? >> Oh, gosh, I mean, I think there's been so much good stuff. I mentioned Visual Studio Online, which I think is really exciting because I'm really excited about being able to like be on my iPad and also code. Like, that's going to be really great. Also, I think the Arc stuff, the Azure Arc stuff is really interesting, the idea of being able to not just be focused on, you know, one platform, but being able to control all of your infrastructure no matter where it is is really, really, that's a really compelling story. That's something that makes me really excited because I love to just automate and simplify things, so anything that can make, you know, the life easier, I think is great. >> As a former journalist, I'd love your thoughts on the state of news today. I know you said you got out of it because it's not a great career path, but the overreach of social media, the spread of fake news, the real and perceived media biases. I'm interested in your thoughts about where we are today, particularly as it relates to coverage of technology. >> It's interesting. I think in some ways technology. For a really long time, most technology coverage was almost cheerleaderish. You could even look back even 20 years when the dot-com crash happened, and I was in high school then, but I was following all of that avidly. The after flow of that, the business press was maybe a little bit burned, but the technology press was still very much gung ho and was still very much cheerleading. That's changed a little bit as we've started to have to grapple with some of the consequences, good and bad, that happened with tech and with the internet. Right now, I almost feel like maybe we've gone a little bit over the edge a little bit more, and some of the critiques are fair, and some of them maybe are just, you know, it's popular to kind of be more negative. So that's been an interesting change, I think to see. You're right, though, when it comes to the spreading of kind of misinformation or people just reading things in headlines, it's really difficult I think, for people to find authoritative voices and things they can trust. Weirdly, though, I do actually think this is an opportunity for the big tech companies to help. This is things that AI could really play a big role in. These are things that could really kind of help, you know, recognize patterns of scan bots and of other things that aren't there and filter that out. But I think even when, I still feel good about journalism as a medium. I still think that the press is one of the most important assets we have, and even when we are going through shakier times, there are opportunities. I think that we will, it'll find it's way. And honestly, I really do think that technology is one of those things that will help get the real things, the important stories out there. >> All right, so, Christina, I guess final word is how should people think of Microsoft in 2019? >> We're here to help. You know, I think that we are, we are a technology company that is, that is creating the tools so that you can build and solve the problems that you need to solve. >> All right, that's a, that's a great note to end on. Thank you so much for coming on the show, Christina. >> Thank you so much for having me. >> Stay tuned for more of theCUBE's live coverage of Microsoft Ignite coming up in just a little bit. (upbeat instrumental music)

>> You don't know me, I watch theCUBE. I queue up your videos, I listen to 'em while I'm on the treadmill. It helps me learn. It expands my knowledge, thank you. So it's really an honor to be part of that community. This is Dave Vellante, thanks for watching theCUBE, and for more information, just click here. (gentle techno music) >> Announcer: Live from Santa Clara, California, it's theCUBE, covering Open Networking Summit 2017. Brought to you by the Linux Foundation. >> Hey, welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE, we are winding down at Open Networking Summit 2017, it's quite a conference. A lot of buzz about open-source as it goes into the networking space and continues to find traction. A lot of big companies donating projects to open-source, and then of course 5G and IoT, and the innovation never stops. So, Scott, really enjoying having Scott Raynovich cohost with us for these last couple days. Scott, what'd you think? >> Thanks again, Jeff. It's been a great show, lots of activity, some good news flow, actually announcements, and people opening up to us about open-source. As you said, lots of good stuff. >> Right. So I should've checked the tape from 2014, 'cus I think you actually co-hosted theCUBE at ONS in 2014, a long time ago. But clearly the narratives are changing quite significantly from there. >> Totally different world. >> You've been following this thing forever. So, before we get into some of the specifics, just kind of your general impressions of direction, and speed in that direction, as we continue to evolve. >> Sure, sure. Well, we talked a little bit about it with Martin, and that Martin kind of talked about in his keynote, how when he started Nicira, which for those of you who don't follow the SDN world, was kind of one of the first big open-networking startups, you know, let's have our code base be based on open-source, and have commodity hardware, run the software so anybody can swap in any hardware and run the software. That's the concept of open-networking and SDN. As Martin pointed out, when he started, it was like a speculative academic project. And he had no idea what it would become, and he pointed out it's now, after it was acquired by VMware, it's now a billion dollar business. And then we have other people, like AT&T, talking about in the keynote, John Donovan talking about how they're moving from 30% SDN open-networking last year, to more than 50%. So they're going to cross over, so that the majority of their network will be based on homegrown open-networking technology. Leveraging a lot of this open-source, that is the main topic of this show, which is run by the Linux foundation, which has become kind of the giant mega aggregator of networking open-source technologies. So, the main message is, we've gone from the academic speculative phase, to the actual let's get this stuff into production, let's run networks on it, and let's deliver your YouTube videos faster. >> Right, right. And as you look at the sponsor sheet behind us, right, a lot of startups, a lot of innovation, that comes with open-source. But you've still got Cisco, and Juniper, and the incumbents, and we had Dave Ward on from Cisco. So as you look at kind of the incumbent positionings, that benefited from a non open-source world, and dedicated, integrated boxes. >> Absolutely. >> How do you see them reacting and shifting in this new kind of market paradigm? >> Well, the first thing is, they all like to talk about software more than the hardware, right? 'Cause you notice that the discussion tends to focus on software these days. So they know that these hardware platforms are being commoditized, and you have these third-party manufacturers, that are coming out with these so-called "white boxes", which is the generic third-party hardware, that can run all the software. So, Juniper and Cisco are obviously, they have lots of software products, but you see from their acquisition strategies, they're focusing on buying software companies now, and they want to become known as software companies. And, I think, you know, they have a shot. They certainly haven't, lets not, say that Cisco hasn't stopped selling network gear, they're still a huge power in the space. >> Jeff Frick: There's a lot of it (laughs) >> And it's not like everybody is running out to buy commodity hardware, they're still looking for people to help them integrate, people to help provide service and support. The so-called, "throat to choke." >> One throat to choke, right, right. >> Yeah so, you know, that's kind of where they're moving. But obviously some of these companies are big oil tankers and you don't turn them around in a day. >> Right. And then we had Intel on, interesting conversation about 5G. Basically, the message being, 5G is now, you're saying, coming back from Mobile World Congress, it's not quite now. But really, the point was, we're preparing for it coming, which is why the preparation is now. So again, your prospective on 5G, interesting keynote this morning, you're talking about orders of magnitude of change, in the mobile network data capacity, over all these various iterations, and how it's really moving to, from, you know, voice to data, but now, not only from data, from people, but obviously things, internet of things. So, as you look at that kind of evolution, it's coming, right? It's coming in a big, big, big, way. >> Totally, totally. Yeah, I mean 5G is a, I mean, we could talk about 5G all day long. There's so many questions and debates about it. You know, Sandra Rivera, who we had on, from Intel, had some really good points, which is, if you're providing the fundamental technology like Intel, that the chips for the NFE Box, is the chips for the radio. The end to end solution in the semi-conductor space, you obviously have to invest now, and prepare for 5G. The standard won't be ratified or complete 'til, at least, well, they're saying possibly late 2018, but everybody really thinks it's 2019, 2020. But, the biq question is the applications, to your point. There's kind of this explosion of these new wireless WAN technologies, if you will, and internet of things is driving a lot of that. You know, you hear about the self-driving cars,right? >> Right, right. >> The trucks that are going to communicate back to HQ, and tell the boss where they are all the time, and how much fuel they're consuming, and how fast they're going, what their average. This Internet of Things market, self-driving cars, that's going to drive the need for more sophisticated mobile networks. But in industrial space, there's a different need, for very low power, low bandwidth, there's a WAN technology called LoRa, LoRa WAN, which is different from 5G. So, what people are trying to figure out with 5G, is the applications. Where does it fit in? What is, actually, 5G? Verizon has announced a point to point 5G pilot project. It's really "pre 5G", you know 'cause 5G isn't here, but they're kind of experimenting with, as a fiber replacement. Jeff needs faster broadband, he doesn't want to wait for the truck to come in and install. >> Jeff Frick: And dig the cable. >> The cable maybe will have 5G, as a new last mile solution, point to point, or point to point for businesses, you know, the big oil derrick, that needs a big pipe. There's many different applications that are being discussed. You know, for 5G. >> And is the timing of the standard, is it just kind of going through its natural stages? Or are there a couple of, you know, kind of key items that are still being hashed out, that they can't come to agreement, or is just kind of working its way. >> Oh, there's many, many items. I mean, I'm not technically sophisticated enough to dive into all the different. They'll argue about, you know, the protocols for authentication. Exactly how much bandwidth do we need? Are there different flavors of it? A lower bandwidth flavor versus a gigabit flavor. What are the chip sets going to look like? It's a very complex standard. But more importantly, on the business side, the carriers are asking, "How much money are we going to have to spend, to deliver 5G? "And we just spent all this money on LTE "and all the licenses." (Jeff chuckles) >> And does LTE go away, when 5G comes, or they run those in parallel? >> It'll definitely co-exist. >> Jeff Frick: It'll still be there, right? >> Well, that's what I'm saying, that's the question. Like you, Jeff Frick, do you really need 5G now? And what are you going to pay for it? You need to pay so your kids can watch YouTube faster? >> No, but I definitely want my autonomous vehicle to hit the brakes on time, before I hit the pedestrian, so. There's definitely application. >> I didn't realize you had an autonomous vehicle. >> Not yet, but, you know, I'm hoping. If more people watch theCUBE, I'll get one faster. >> So next year, when you acquire your autonomous Tesla. >> Jeff Frick: Right, right, my autonomous, which they just sent the software download, which is amazing. That's a whole different story. Shifting gears, edge, lot of conversation about edge. We do a lot of stuff with G, and IoT, and as you like to say IIoT, the Industrial Internet of Things, and kind of, this whole concept of, you can't get everything back to the cloud, 'cause the speed of light is just too damn slow. >> Scott Raynovich: That's right, that's right. >> And we talked to Ihab Tarazi, from Equinix, and we talk about the edge at the devices, as you said, low power, nasty conditions, yes, we're alive, they're banging plates over there. But then he really talked about the edge of all the clouds, and really the edge in the data center side. Because most of this stuff is traveling peer to peer, direct connect, and having that edge between your organization and then back into all these various clouds. >> That's right, that's right. >> Pretty interesting take, as that kind of back end sophistication and interconnectivity, just gets tighter and tighter and tighter. >> Totally, totally. Google also talked about that, building a new B2, they call it the B2 peering network. If people don't realize, how sophisticated theses networks have to be, right? You think that you, you know, you download a video, and it's just out there, right? It's actually going through a private network possibly, you know, a Netflix, has their own network, then it's peering with your local ISP, it's peering somewhere with your last mile provider, or if you're on a mobile network, it might be getting to you a different way, and so the discussion of where the edge goes is very important because as you pointed out, with IoT computing processing, it takes a long time, as we see with Siri all the time. Have you ever had that problem where Siri's not there? >> Google's always there. >> Yeah (laughs) >> Ok Google, no it works seemlessly, perfectly all the time. >> Okay, you're an Android guy, so yeah. >> Not quite. (laughs) >> So when you ask that question, to Siri or Google, it's going back all the way to the cloud and making that computation, back somewhere in the cloud. So the question is, where should that computation happen? When Jeff Frick needs his breaks, to avoid knocking over the (laughs) >> Unless it's a criminal, that's a different piece of software, you actually want to hit the criminal. >> You don't want that computation getting hung up in the cloud, right? So that's what the debate about the edge is. >> It's fascinating, it's why I love being in this business, it just continues to evolve and change over time. So last thing really, we are at the Open Networking Summit, it's a Linux Foundation show, Linux took this over a litle while ago, and as you said earlier, this huge move to move a lot of these open-source projects to the Linux Foundation, for them to really provide a home, if you will, and a set of resources, and a set of, everything from the 501(c)(3), and everything else you need. AT&T talked about delivering their project open-sourced, today. We heard earlier from Dell EMC, making a contribution. So as you look at the evolution of open-source, and Linux Foundation, as a subset, and how it impacts this networking and software-defined networking catching up to, software-defined compute and software-defined storage. How significant is that, as a driver of this adoption? >> Well, it's a big move. Most of the folks here at ONS are really, more in a telecom world, if you think of networking. What's happened to networking over the last decade, it's moved from enterprise, more to cloud and telecom, right? If you're in enterprise, you don't have to worry about building your network as much anymore, because most of your applications are heading to the cloud, right, with your service provider. So they are emulating what the cloud leaders did. The cloud leaders, such as, Google, were very aggressive with open-source. And the telecom players saw how fast they moved, by sharing code, and having more of a grassroots approach to building the code base. So that's, the reason why it's a big move, is that's a huge shift for telecom, right? 'Cause telecom has, for decades, built their proprietary network so. You want an LTE? Okay, we're going to do it our way, and we're going to work with a vendor, and take years to build this very specific proprietary network. And they've looked at cloud, and they want the speed. They want it to be able to move faster. So AT&T talked about how, when they deployed this new white box network, in production, they did it in three months. Which is, incredible. From the chip coming out of the foundry, to developing the box and the software and the service, it took them three to four months. Which is just an incredible change from the way these networks used to be built, it use to take years. >> Right, well the other really interesting plan, you teased it out, with the announcement with AT&T and this little company SnapRoute, some little startup, and we also heard it from Drew at Dell EMC, that, because of the open-source connection via the Linux Foundation, it exposes them and creates an ecosystem that they can now leverage all the smarts, and ingenuity, and innovation, coming out of a sea of startups, that they may or may not, have ever had a direct relationship with, and to leverage that internally. Pretty cool factor there. >> Exactly, it can all happen a lot faster, 'cause if its all based on open standards, you can, just plug it in, doesn't work the first day, but three months is a big change from, you know, two years. >> Donkey ears. Alright, so last word, you're launching a new thing. >> Oh, great! >> The new Scott Raynovich, so give us, what's the new name, where can people get information, and when do you actually launch? I know that's a little preview, but that's okay. >> It's called Futuriom. That's R-I-O-M. You know, 'cause, the names are running out on the internet, I don't know if you noticed that. (Jeff chuckles) And it launches in two weeks, and it's my hybrid blog research platform. So I'll have contributed information, we'll have big reports on industrial IoT. It's a premium service, but we'll also have free reports. So you can download free stuff, you can download premium reports you want to understand about all of these emerging technologies, and IoT, SD-WAN, cloud infrastructure, where it's going, Futuriom is really-- >> If you can't figure out the spelling, just tweet to Scott, and ask him, he'll send you a link. Yeah, it's at the lower third, so. Well very exciting. >> Thanks a lot. >> And we look forward to watching it grow. And thanks for sitting in with me, here at ONS. >> Thanks, I always love doing theCUBE, so I hope to be back here soon. >> Absolutely, alright, so he's Scott Raynovich, I'm Jeff Frick, you're watching theCUBE. We are at ONS 2017 in Santa Clara. Thanks for watching, we'll see you next time. There's a busy schedule. Check SiliconANGLE.tv to see all the shows we're covering over the next several weeks. We'll be pretty much everywhere. So, we're out for now. Thanks, we'll catch you next time. Bye bye. (gentle techno)

>> Announcer: Live from Santa Clara, California, it's The Cube. Covering open networking summit 2017. Brought to you by the Linux foundation. >> Welcome back. We are live in Santa Clara at the open networking summit 2017. Been coming here for a couple years, it's a lot of open source going on in storage, for a long time, a lot of open source going on in compute for a long time, and you know, networking was kind of the last one, but we had Martin Casado on on earlier today. He says it's 10 years since he started Nicira. And now, it's a billion dollar revenue run raid inside vmware, so I think the software defined networking is pretty real. We're excited for this next segment, Scott Raynovich, been cohosting all day, good to see you again, Scott. But we're kind of shifting, we're going to add to open networking, we're going to add to open, not compute, but OpenStack, I get them all mixed up, we were just-- >> It's all infrastructure, it's all in the family. >> All right, so our next guest here, representing the OpenStack foundation, is Ildiko Vancsa, get that right? She is the ecosystem technical lead for OpenStack, welcome. And Lisa-Marie Namphy, she's now officially the OpenStack ambassador, which if you follow her on Twitter, you would have known that a long time ago. >> For the U.S. There's several others globally, but for the U.S., yeah. >> So first off, welcome. >> Thank you. >> And what is the OpenStack team doing here at open networking summit? >> So OpenStack itself is a multipurpose generated cloud platform, so we are not just looking into enterprise, IT use cases, but also trying to address the telecom and NFV space. And this is the conference where we are finding many of our ecosystem member companies represented, and we are also learning what's new in the networking space, what are the challenges of tomorrow and how we can start to address them today. >> Right, 'cause the telco is a very active space for OpenStack as well, correct, there's been a good market segment for you. >> Yes, it is an emerging area. I would say we have more and more telecommunications company around and they are also more and more involved in open source. Because I think it's kind of clear that they are also using open source for a while now, but using open source and participating in open source, those are two different things. So this kind of mindset change and transition towards participating In these communities and going out to the public field and do software development there and collaborate with each other and the enterprise IT segment as well, this is what is happening today and it is really great to see it. >> Host: Great, great. >> And you've seen more and more telco's participating in the OpenStack summits, there was an NFV day, I think, even going all the way back to the Atlanta summit. And certainly, in Barcelona, Ildiko was actually doing one of the main stage key notes, which was very focused on telco. And some of the main sponsors of this upcoming summit are telco's. So there's definitely a nice energy between telco and OpenStack. >> Now, why do you think the telco is just the one that's kind of getting ahead of the curve in terms of the adoption? >> Scalable low class clouds. (all laugh) >> Right, and we had John Donovan from AT&T said today that they're either rapidly approaching or going to hit, very soon, more than 50% of software defined networking within the AT&T network. So if there's any questions as to whether it's real or still in POC's, I think that pretty much says it's in production and running. >> I'm doing a lot more of that, so I also run the OpenStack user group for the San Francisco bay area and have been for the last three years, and if we're not talking about Kupernetes, or Docker and OpenStack, we're talking about networking. And tonight, actually, we're going to, the open contrail team is talking about some of the stuff they're doing with open contrail and containers and sort of just to piggyback off of this conference. And next week, as well, we're talking about the network functionality in Kupernetes at OpenStack, if you want to run in down to the OpenStack cloud. So it's a huge focus and the user group can't get enough of it. >> and your guys' show is coming up very, very soon. >> The OpenStack summit? >> Yes. >> Oh, absolutely, May 8th through 11th in Boston, Massachusetts. >> Host: Like right around the corner. >> Yeah. >> The incredible moving show, right? It keeps going and going and going. >> Yeah, yeah, there's going to be 6,000 plus people there. There was just some recent press releases about some of the keynotes that are happening there. There's a huge focus on, you know, I keep calling this the year of the user, the year of OpenStack adoption. And we're really, throughout the meetups, we're really doing a lot to try to showcase those use cases. So Google will be one that's onstage talking about some really cool stuff they're doing with OpenStack, some machine learning, just really intelligent stuff they're working on, and that's going to be a great keynote that we're looking forward to. Harvard will be up on there, you know, not just big name foundation members, but a lot of use cases that you'll see presented. >> So why do you think this is the year, what's kind of the breakthrough that it is the year of the user, would you say? >> Well, I think that just the reliability of OpenStack. I think enterprises are getting more comfortable. There are very large clouds running on OpenStack, more in Asia and in Europe and Ildiko can probably talk about it, particularly some of the telco related ones. But you know, the adoption is there and you see more stability around there, more integration with other, I don't know what to call it, emerging technologies like containers, like AI, like IOT. So there's a big push there, but I think enterprises have just, they have adopted it. And there's more expertise out there. We've focused a lot on the administrators. There's the COA, the certified administrator of, you know, OpenStack administrator exam you can take. So the operators have come a long way and they're really helping the customers out there get OpenStack clouds up and running. So I just think, you know, it's seven years now, into it, right, so we got to turn the corner. >> So there have been some growing pains with OpenStack, so what can you tell us about the metrics today versus, say, three or four years ago in terms of total installations, maybe breakdown of telecom versus enterprise, what kind of metrics do you have you there? >> I'll let you take that one. >> We are running, continuously running a user survey and we are seeing growing numbers in the telecom area. I'm not prepared with the numbers from the top of my head, but we are definitely seeing more and more adoption in the telecom space like how you mentioned AT&T, they are one of the largest telecom operators onboard in the community, and they are also very active, showing a pretty great example of how to adopt the software and how to participate in the community to make the software more and more NFV ready and ready for the telecom use cases. We also have, as Lisa-Marie just mentioned, the China area and Asia are coming up as well, like we have China Mobile and China Telecom onboard as well. Or Huawei, so we have telecom operators and telecom vendors as well, around the community. And we are also collaborating with other communities, so like who you see around OPNFV, OpenDaylight, and so forth. We are collaborating with them to see how we can integrate OpenStack into a larger environment as part of the full NFV stack. If you look into the ETSI NFV architectural framework, OpenStack is on the infrastructure layer. The NFV infrastructure and virtual infrastructure manager components are covered with OpenStack services mostly. So you also need to look into, then, how you can run on top of the hardware that the telecom industry is expecting in a data center and how to onboard the virtual network functions on top of that, how to put D management and orchestration components on top of OpenStack, and how the integration works out. So we are collaborating with these communities and what is really exciting about the Upcoming summit is that we are transforming the event a little bit. So this time, it will not be purely OpenStack focused, but it will be more like an open infrastructure, even. We are running open source days, so we will have representation from the communities I mentioned and we will also have Kubernetes onboard, for example, to show how we are collaborating with the representatives of the container technologies. We will also have Cloud Foundry and a few more communities around, so it will be a pretty interesting event and we are just trying to show the big picture that how OpenStack and all these other components of this large ecosystem are operating together. And that is going to be a super cool part of the summit, so the summit is May 8th through 11th and on May 9th, the CNCF, the Linux foundation, actually, behind this, the CNCF day, they're calling it Kupernetes day. And the whole day will be dedicated, there will be a whole track dedicated to Kupernetes, basically. And so they did another call for papers and it's like a little mini conference inside the conference. So that's kind of what I was saying about the adoption of other technologies. I'm sure the OpenStack foundation is putting those numbers together that you asked about and probably Jonathan or Bryce will stand onstage on the first day and talk about them. But what I think is more interesting and what I would encourage people to go, there's a Superuser magazine. Superuser does a great job telling the stories of what's happening out there, and some of these use cases, and who's adopting this technology and what they're doing with it. And those stories are more interesting than just, you know, the numbers. Because you can do anything with numbers and statistics, but these actual user stories are really cool so I encourage readers to go out to Superuser magazine and check that out. >> It's like, Lego uses it. >> There you go. >> I had to check real fast. >> Lot of information on there. They do a good job of that. >> Lego alligators. >> So you talked about this day with the Linux foundation, is there increasing amounts of cooperation between OpenStack and Linux foundation? Given all the projects that seem to be blossoming. >> Yeah, I don't even know that it needed to increase, there's always been nice energy between the two. There is, you know, Eileen Evans, who we know very well, was on the board of both, the first woman on both boards. She was my colleague for many years at Hewlett-Packard. She's still on the Linux foundation board and there's been a lot of synergy between those foundations. They've always worked closely together, especially things like the Cloud Foundry foundation that came out of the Linux foundation has always worked very closely with OpenStack, the OpenStack foundation, and the board members, and it's all one big happy family. We're all open source, yeah. >> And you talked about the enterprises being, you know, they've been using open source for a long time, Linux has been around forever. They're really more adopting kind of an open source ethos in terms of their own contributions back and participating back in. So you see just increased adoption, really, of using the open source vehicle as a way to do better innovation, better product development, and to get involved, get back to their engineers to get involved in something beyond just their day job. >> It is definitely a tendency that is happening, so it's not just AT&T, like, I can mention, for example, NTT DoCoMo, who now has engineers working on OpenStack code. They are a large operator in Japan. And it is really not something, I think, that a few years back, they would've imagined that they will just participate in an open source community. I've been involved with OPNFV for, I think, two years now, or two and a half. I'm an OPNFV ambassador as well, I'm trying to focus on the cross-community collaboration. And OPNFV is an environment where you can find many telecom operators and vendors. And it was a really interesting journey to see them, how they get to know open source more and more and how they learned how this is working and how working in public is like and what the benefits are. And I remember when a few people from, for example, DoCoMo came to OPNFV and they were, like, a little bit more shy, just exploring what's happening. And then like a half year later when they started to do OpenStack contributions, they had code batches merged into OpenStack, they added new functionalities, they kind of became advocates of open source. And they were like telling everywhere that open source is the way to go and this is what everyone should be doing and why it is so great to collaborate with other operators out in the public so you can address the common pain points together, rather than everyone is working on it behind closed doors and trying to invent the same wheel at the same time, separately. >> Right. >> So that was a really, really Interesting journey. And I think more and more companies are following this example. And not just coming and giving feedback, but also more and more participating and doing coding documentation work in the community. >> And I think if I can understand, what I think, also, the question you might have been asking, there wasn't a ton of python developers in the beginning and everybody's like how do we get these OpenStack developers in the company, you know, it was this huge shortage. And Linux was the little hanging fruit, it's like well, why do we just hire some Linux developers and then teach them python, and that's how a lot of OpenStack knowledge came into companies. So that was the trend. And I think enough companies, enough enterprises do see the value of something like OpenStack or Linux or Kupernetes or whatever the project has, Docker, to actually dedicate enough full time employees to be doing just that for as long as it makes sense and then maybe it's another technology. But we saw that for years, right, with OpenStack, huge companies. And there still are. Not always the same companies, depending on what a company needs and where they are, they absolutely find value in contributing back to this community. >> Okay, and you said you got a meetup tonight? >> I do, yeah. >> Give a plug for the meetup. >> Juniper, it's open contrail talking about open contrailing and containers. And it's at Juniper here in Sunnyville, so if you go to meetup.com/openstack, that's our user group. We're the first ones, we got that one. So meetup.com/openstack is the Silicon Valley, San Francisco bay area user group. And then next week, we're talking about networking and Kupernetes. >> All right, it's always good to be above the fold, that's for sure. All right, Ildiko, Lisa-Marie, great to see you again and thanks for stopping by, and we'll see you in Boston, if not before. >> Absolutely, we'll both be quite busy, we have four, both four presentations each, it's going to be a nutty week. So I'm looking forward to seeing you guys in Boston, always a pleasure, thanks for inviting us. >> Absolutely, all right, thanks for stopping by. With Scott Raynovich, I'm Jeff Frick, you're watching The Cube from open networking summit 2017. We'll be back after this short break, thanks for watching.

>> Narrator: Live from Santa Clara, California, it's The Cube. Covering Open Networking Summit 2017. Brought you to by the Linux Foundation. >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with The Cube, along with Scott Raynovich. We're at the Open Networking Summit 2017. Linux Foundation has taken over this show a couple years ago, it's a lot of excitement. A lot of people would say that the networking was kind of the last piece of the puzzle to get software defined, to get open. We're really excited to kick off the show with a really great representative of SDN and everything that it represents. Martin Casado, now with Andreessen Horowitz, Martin, great to see you. >> Hey, I'm super happy to be here. >> So, coming off your keynote, you said it was ten years ago almost to the day that you guys started the adventure called Nicira, which kind of put us where we are now. >> You know, you and I are growing old together here. It has been a decade. I've actually been on The Cube throughout, so I'm very happy to be here. Thanks so much for the intro. >> Absolutely. So, what were your takeaways, Scott, on that keynote? >> It was great, we had some great stuff this morning. Not only was Martin giving the history of Nicira and the origins of SDN and talking about how you made it successful after all these challenges but we also had AT&T unveiling a new incredible white box program, where they're running open networking on their entire network now, so, it was kind of a, I thought, a big day in general to show how far we've gone, right? And you talked a little about that. >> Yeah, listen having come over here since the inception of ONS, what strikes me is, it originally, it was so speculative, it was kind of like wouldn't it be nice and you had all these dreamers. It was largely academics or people from the CTO's office and if you compare those first meetings to now, we're in the industry proper now, right? If you come and you look around, there's huge representation from Telcos, from vendors, from customers, and academics. So, I think we've seen a massive maturation in general. >> I just think I could make a mash-up of all the times we've had you on the Cube table where it's coming! We're almost here! >> Martin: And we're like it's here! >> It's here! But now John Donovan said that their goal, I don't know if it's in the short term or the very near term, is to be over 50 percent software defined, so I guess that's a pretty good definition of being here. >> Yeah, I think so. I think that we're seeing, and I think that the AT&T talk was fantastic, but I think you're seeing this across the industry, which is large customers that have been traditionally conservative, have these targets, and they're actually implementing. I mean, it's one thing to have something on the roadmap. And it's one thing to have something planned. It's another thing to actually start seeing it roll out. >> Jeff: Right. >> Again, this is a process. A lot of my talk was like, how long does it take for an industry to mature? But now, there's many things you can point to that are very real, and I think that was one great example of it. >> Well, the other thing I thought was great in your talk is you mapped out the 10 year journey and you said it so discounts often the hardest part which is changing behavior of the market. That is much harder than the technology and some of the other pieces. >> Right, exactly. So, take this from a technologist standpoint. I basically made a career on making fun of hardware. I'm like, software is so much faster than hardware, and hardware is so slow. But now if I stand back and take a long view, yeah, fine hardware's slower than software, but it's nothing compared to changing organizational behavior or consumer behavior and so, for me it was actually pretty humbling going through this last decade, because you realize that even if you have product market fit, and even if you have a good technical solution, there is a natural law of market physics that you have to overcome a moment of inertia that takes probably a decade, certainly five or six years. >> And that's before things like vendor viability, when you're trying to enter the enterprise space, or legacy infrastructure which is just not getting ripped out, you know? So many hurdles. >> Strictly consumer behavior, right? Consumers are used to doing one thing. I always talk to new entrepreneurs and I say the following: You have two jobs as an entrepreneur. Job number one is you identify a constituency. That constituency wakes up, they think about everything in the world, but they don't think about your thing, so job number one is to get them to think about your thing. That's difficult. It's like Inception. It's like Leonardo DiCaprio Inception. You're putting an idea in somebody's head and then the second thing that you have to do is you have to attach a value to that. So, just because they have the idea doesn't mean that they actually value it. So, you actually have to say, listen, this is worth X amount of dollars. And it turns out that this takes a long time and that's why market category creation is such an effort. That's why it's so neat, we're standing here and we're seeing that this has actually happened, which is fantastic. >> You talked about Nicira, which today, correct me if I'm wrong, it's still the biggest success story in SDN in terms of a startup, you know, 1.3 billion. You talked about different iterations, I think you said, six or seven product iterations and being frustrated at many levels. Did you ever sit there one day and think, "uh, we're going to fail." >> Martin: (laughs) >> Was failure a common- >> Oh man, I don't think there wasn't a quarter when we're like "we're dead." (laughs) By the way, that's every startup. I mean, I'm on- >> Scott: That's just normal, right? >> There's six or seven boards right now, I mean every startup has this oscillator. When we started at Nicira, it was in 2007. And in 2008, the nuclear winter set in, if you remember. The whole economy collapsed, and I think that alone could've killed us. So absolutely, and all startups who do that. But one thing that I never lost faith in was that the problem was real. I wasn't sure we had the right solution or the right approach, and we iterated on that, but I knew there was a real problem here. And when that is kind of a guiding star and a guiding light, we just kept going towards that. I think that's why ultimately we ended up solving the problem we set out to, it was just we took a very crooked path to get there. >> What was the feedback mechanism? Was it like just talking to as many customers as possible or? You talked about the market fit versus the industry fit, how did you gather that information? >> I think in core technical infrastructure, the strategic leaders of a startup have to be piped into the nervous system of both the technology trends and the product market fit. Technology trends because, technology trends provide the momentum for what's going to get adopted and what it looks like. And the product market fit is what is the customer problems that need to be solved. And so I think it's really critical to be deeply into both of those things, which is why things like ONS are so important, because they do kind of find a convergence of both of that. What do customers need but also where's the technology going. >> And it's really neat, that's kind of like the platform versus the application. You're going down the new platform strategy, right? Which is the software-defined networking, but at the end of the day, people buy solutions to their problems that they need to get fixed today. No one's buying a new platform today. >> Yeah, so there's two issues, you're right. There's the technical directions and then the specific applications for that, and one thing I talked about and I really believe is we focus a little bit too much on the technology platform, how those are shifting, early on and less on what the customers need. I don't think you want to 100% flip that, you need to focus on both, but I think that they both should be even-handed. What do customers need and then what is the right technical approach to get there. >> And you also stuck on a couple of really interesting points about decisions. You're going to make a lot mistakes going down the road. But you said, you got to make two or three really good ones and that will make up for a whole lot of little missteps along the path. >> So in retrospect, and this was actually a big a-ha! for me and maybe it's obvious to other people, but this was a big a-ha! to me, even as I was putting together this talk. So, the way venture capital works is you make a lot of bets, but only one in ten will actually produce returns, so you're kind of swinging for the fences and almost all the returns comes from the Googles and the Facebooks and the Ubers and so forth. That's just how it is. Now, as a venture capitalist, you can have a portfolio, you can place ten of those bets in parallel. Going back through all of the slides and everything we've done, I hadn't realized before how similar doing a startup is, which is you make a lot of mistakes in startups, but a few key decisions really drive the strategy. Does that make sense? I always thought maybe you need to do 50/50, or maybe even 80/20, 80% correct and 20 wrong, but it's not that. There's a few key decisions that make it correct, and so the key is you're straddling these two pieces of human nature. On one side, you want to stick with something, you want to make sure that you're not sticking too long with something that isn't going to work, and then the other side you don't want to get rid of something before it's going to work. You want to be both honest with yourself when it's not working and you want to be patient. And if you do that long enough I think that you will find one of the critical decisions to drive the startup forward. >> Yeah, one interesting thing you said, you arrived at a conclusion that the products and individual applications were more important than the platform, and that kind of runs contrary to the meme that you have now where the Harvard Business Review is saying "build a platform, build the next Airbnb." And what you're saying is kind of contrary to that. >> Right, so I went into this with a path from Mindframe, if you look at our original slide deck, which I showed, it was a platform. Now, I think that there's two aspects for this, I think in SDN specifically, there is a reason technically why a platform doesn't work, and the reason for that is networking is about distributed state management, which is very specific to applications. So it's hard for a platform to register that, so technically, I think there's reason for that. From a startup perspective, customers don't buy platforms, customers buy products. I think if you focus on the product, you build a viable business, and then for stickiness you turn that into a platform. But most customers don't know what to do with a platform because that's still a value-add. Products before platforms, I think, is a pretty good adage to live by. >> But design your product with a platform point of view. That way so you can make that switch when that day comes and now you're just adding applications, applications. So, I want to shift gears a little bit just kind of about open source and ONS specifically. We hear time and time again about how open source is such an unbelievable driver of innovation. Think of how your story might have changed if there wasn't, and maybe there was, I wasn't there, something here and how does an open source foundation help drive the faster growth of this space? >> So, I actually think, and I'm probably in the minority of this, but I've always thought that open source does not tend to innovation. That's not like the value of open source is innovation. If you look at most successful open source projects, traditionally they've actually entered mature markets. Linux entered Unix, which is, so I'd say the innovation was Unix not Linux. I would say, Android went into Palm, and Blackberry, and iPhone. I would say MySQL went into Oracle. And so, I think the power and beauty of open source is more on the proliferation of technology and more on the customer adoption, and less on the innovation. But what it's doing is it's driving probably the biggest shift in buying that we've ever seen in IT. So, IT is a 4 trillion dollar market that's this massive market, and right now, in order to sell something, you pretty much have to make it open source or offer it as a service. And the people that buy open source, they do it very different than you traditionally do it. It allows them to get educated on it, it allows them to use it, they get a community as part of it. And that shift from a traditional direct vendor model to that model means a lot of new entrants can come in and offer new things. And so, I think it's very important to have open source, I think it's changing the way people buy things, I think building communities like this is a very critical thing to do, but I do think it's more about go-to-market and actually less about innovation. >> So what does it mean for all these proprietary networking vendors? I mean, are they dead now? >> No, here's actually another really interesting thing, which is I think customers these days like to buy things open source or as a service. Those are the two consumption models. Now, for shipping software, I think shipping closed source software, I think those days are over or they're coming to the end. Like, that's done. But, customers will view, whether it's on-prem or off-prem, an appliance as a service. So, let's say I create MartinHub. So, it's my online service, MartinHub, people like MartinHub. I can sell them that on-premise. Now, MartinHub could be totally closed source, right? Like, Amazon is totally closed source, right? But people still consume it. Because it's a service, they think it's open. And if they want something on-prem, I can deploy that and they still consume it as a service. So, I think the proprietary vendors need to move from shipping closed source software to offering a service, but I think that service can just be on-prem. And I think prem senior shift happens, so I don't think there's going to be like a massive changing of the guard. I do think we're going to see new entrants. I think we're going to see a shift in the market share, but this isn't like a thermonuclear detonation that's going to kill the dinosaurs. (laughs) >> I want to get your take, Martin, on the next big wave that we're seeing which is 5G, and really 5G as an enabler for IoT. So, you've been playing in this space for a while. As you see this next thing getting ready to crest, what are some of your thoughts, also sitting in a VC chair, you probably see all kinds of people looking to take advantage of this thing. >> That's funny. I'm actually going to answer a different question. (laughs) Which is, I-- >> Scott: That's cause 5G doesn't exist yet, right? >> No, I love the question, but it's like, this is really a space that's really near and dear to my heart, which is cellular. And I've actually started looking at it personally, and even in the United States alone, there are something like 20 million people that are under-connected. And I think the only practical way to connect them is to use cellular. And so I've been looking at this problem for about a year, I've actually created a non-profit in it that brings cellular connectivity to indigenous communities. Like, Native American tribes, and so forth. >> Jeff: As the ultimate last mile. >> As the ultimate last mile. Which is interesting, like 5G is fantastic, but if you look at the devices available to these people that have coverage, I think LTE is actually sufficient. So what I'm excited about, and I'm sorry about answering a different question, but it's such a critical point, what I'm excited about is, it used to be 150 thousand dollars to set up a cell tower. Using SDN, I can set up an LTE cell tower for about five thousand dollars and I can use existing fiber at schools as backhaul, so I think now we have these viable deployment models that are relatively cheap that we can actually connect the underprivileged with. And I don't think it's about the next new cellular technology, I think it's actually SDN's impact on the existing one. And that's an area of course that's very personal to me. >> All right, love it. It is as you said, it's repackaging stuff in a slightly different way leveraging the technology to do a new solution. >> And it's truly SDN. If you look at this, there's an LTE stack all in software running on proprietary hardware. I'm sorry, on general purpose hardware that's actually being controlled from Amazon. And again, a factor of ten reduction in the price to set up a cell tower. >> Jeff: Awesome. >> What about the opportunity with Internet of Things and connecting the things with networks' artificial intelligence? >> So, as a venture capitalist, when it comes to networking I'm interested in two areas. One area is networking moving from the machine connecting machines to connecting APIs. So, we're moving up a layer. So we've got microservices, now we need a network to connect those and there're different types of end points, and they require different types of connectivity. But I'm also interested in networks moving out. So, it used to be connecting a bunch of machines but now there's all these new problem domains, the Internet is moving out to interact with the physical world. It's driving cars. It's doing manufacturing, it's doing mining, it's doing forestry. As we reach out to these more mature industries, and different deployment environments, we have to rethink the type of networks to build. So, that's definitely an area that I'm looking at from the startup space. >> What kind of activity's there? I mean, you have guys coming in every day pitching new automated connect-the-car software. >> I think for me it's the most exciting time in IT, right? It's like, the last, say ten fifteen years of the Internet has been the World Wide Web. Which is kind of information processing, it's information in, information out. But because of recent advances in sensors due to the cellphone, the ubiquity of cellphones, the recent advances in AI, the recent advances in robotics, that Internet is now growing hands and eyes and ears. And it's manipulating the physical world. Any industry that's out there, whether it's driving, whether it's farming, is now being automated, so we see all the above. People are coming in, they're changing the way we eat food, they're changing the way we drive cars, they're changing the way we fly airplanes. So, it's almost like IT is the new control layer for the world. >> All right, Martin, thanks again for stopping by. Unfortunately we got to leave it there, we could go all day I'm sure. I'll come up with more good questions for you. >> All right, I really appreciate you taking the time. It's good to see both of you. Thanks very much. >> Absolutely, all right, he's Martin Casado from Andreessen Horowitz. I'm Jeff Frick, along with Scott Raynovich. You're watching The Cube from Open Networking Summit 2017. We'll be back after this short break. Thanks for watching. (mellow music) >> Announcer: Robert Herjavec. >> Man: People obviously know you from Shark Tank, but the Herjavec group has been really laser fo--

Zay California in the heart of Silicon Valley. It's the cube covering Hadoop summit 2016 brought to you by Hortonworks. Here's your host, John furrier. >>Okay, we'll come back here and we are here live in Silicon Valley for the cube. This is our flagship program. We go out to the events and extract the cylinders. Of course. We're here at the big data event. Hadoop summit 2016 have a special guest celebrity now, author of the bestselling book magical at Virginia Heffernan magic and loss rising on the bestseller lists. Welcome to the cube. Thanks in our show, you are my internet friend and now you're my real life friend. You're my favorite Facebook friend that I just now met for the first time. Great to meet you. We had never met and now we, but we know each other of course intimately through the interwebs. So I've been following your writing your time. Send you do some stuff on medium and then you, you kind of advertise. You're doing this book. I saw you do the Google glasses experiment in. >>It was Brooklyn and it might, it was so into Google glass and I will admit it, I fought for everything. I fell for VR and all its incarnations and um, and the Google last year, it was like that thing that was supposed to put the internet all voice activated, just put the internet always in front of your face. So I started to wear it around in Brooklyn, my prototype. I thought everyone would stop me and say how cool it was. In fact they didn't think it was pull it off new Yorkers. That's how you would, how they really feel. Got a problem with that. Um, your book magic and loss is fantastic and I think it really is good because uh, Dan Lyons wrote, disrupted, loved, which was fantastic. Dan lies big fan of him and his work, but it really, it wasn't a parody of civil rights for Silicon Valley. >>The show that's kinda taken that culture and made it mainstream. I had people call me up and say, Hey, you live in Callow Alto. My God, do you live near the house? Something like it's on Newell, which is one of my cross streets. But the point is tech culture now is kind of in a native, my youngest is 13 and you know, we're in an iPad generation for the youth and we're from the generation where there was no cell phones. And Mike, I remember when pages were the big innovation and internet. But I think, I think when I'm telling you, I think, I know I'm talking to a fellow traveler when I say that there was digital culture before the advent of the worldwide web in the early nineties you know, I, I'm sure you did too. Got electronic games like crazy. I would get any Merlin or Simon or whatever that they, they introduced. >>And then I also dialed into a mainframe in the late seventies and the early eighties to play the computer as we call it. We didn't even call it the internet. And the thing about the culture too was email was very, you know, monochrome screens, but again, clunky but still connected. Right? So we were that generation of, you know, putting that first training wheels on and now exposed to you. So in the book, your premise is, um, there's magical things happening in the internet and art countering the whole trolling. Uh, yeah, the Internet's bad. And we know recently someone asked me, how can the internet be art when Twitter is so angry? What do you think art is? You know, this is an art. Art is emotional. Artists know powerful >>emotions represented in tranquility and this is, you know, what you see on the internet all the time. Of course the aid of course are human. It needs a place to live and call it Twitter. For now it used to be YouTube comments. So, but we are always taking the measure of something we've lost. Um, I get the word loss from lossy compression, you know, the engineering term that, how does, how MP3 takes that big broad music signal and flattens it out. And something about listening to music on MP3, at least for me, made me feel a sense that I was grieving for something. It was missing something from my analog life. On the other hand, more than counterbalanced by the magic that I think we all experienced on the internet. We wouldn't have a friendship if it weren't for social media and all kinds of other things. And strange serendipity happens not to mention artistic expression in the form of photography, film, design of poetry and music, which are the five chapters of the book. >>So the book is fantastic. The convergence and connection of people, concepts, life with the internet digitally is interesting, right? So there's some laws with the MP3. Great example, but have you found post book new examples? I'm sure the internet culture, geese like Mia, like wow, this is so awesome. There's a cultural aspect of it is the digital experience and we see it on dating sites. Obviously you see, you know Snapchat, you know, dating sites like Tinder and other hookups apps and the real estate, everything being Uberized. What's the new things that you've, that's coming out and you must have some >>well this may be controversial, but one thing I see happening is anti digital culture. Partly as an epi phenomenon of side effect of digitization. We have a whole world of people who really want to immerse themselves in things like live music maker culture, things made by hand, vinyl records, vinyl records, which are selling more than ever in the days of the rolling stones. Gimme shelter less they sold less than than they do now. The rolling stones makes $1 billion touring a year. Would we ever have thought that in the, in the, you know, at the Genesis of the iPod when it seemed like, you know, recorded music represented music in that MP3 thing that floated through our, our phones was all we needed. No, we want to look in the faces of the rolling stones, get as close as we can to the way the music is actually made and you know, almost defiantly, and this is how the culture works. This is how youth culture works. Um, reject, create experiences that cannot be digitized. >>This is really more of a counter culture movement on the overt saturation of digital. >>Yes. Yes. You see the first people to scale down from, you know, high powered iPhones, um, when we're youth going to flip phones. You know, it's like the greatest like greatest punk, punk, punk tech. Exactly. It's like, yeah, I'm going to use these instruments, but like if I break a string, who cares on a PDs? The simplest one, right? >>My mom made me use my iPhone. Are we going to, how are we going to have that? it'd >>be like, Oh, look at you with your basic iPhone over there. And I've got my just like hack down, downscale, whatever. And you know what, I don't spend the weekends, don't pick up my phone on the weekends. But you know, there are interesting markets there. And interesting. I mean, for instance, the, you know, the live phenomenon, I know that, you know, there's this new company by one of the founders of Netflix movie pass, which um, for a $30 subscription you've seen movies in the theater as much as you want and the theaters are beautiful. And what instead of Netflix and chill, you know, the, the, the contemporary, you know, standard date, it's dinner and movie. You're out again. You're eating food, which can't be digitized with in-company, which can't be digitized. And then sitting in a theater, you know, a public experience, which is, um, a pretty extraordinary way that the culture and business pushes back on digital. >>Remember I was a comma on my undergraduate days in computer science in the 80s. And before when it was nerdy and eh, and there was a sociology class at Hubba computers and social change. And the big thing was we're going to lose social interactions because of email. And if you think about what you're talking about here is that the face to face presence, commitment of being with somebody right now is a scarce resource. You have an abundance of connections. >>I mean, take the fact what has happened is digital culture has jacked up the value of undigital culture. So for instance, you know, I've, I've met on Facebook, we talk on Facebook messenger, we notice that we're, you know, like kindred spirits in a certain way and we like each other's posts and so forth. Then we have an, a more extensive talk in messenger when we meet in person for the first time. Both of us are East coast people, but we hugged tele because it's like, Oh wow, like you in the flesh. You know it's something exciting. >>Connection virtually. That's right. There's a synchronous connection presence, but we're not really, we haven't met face to face. >>Yeah, there's this great as a great little experiment going on, set group of kids and Silicon Valley have decided they're too addicted to their phones and Facebook. Now I am not recommending for your viewers and listeners that anybody do what these kids sounds good, are ready. Go. Hey, all right, so what they do is take an LSD breakfast. Now I don't take drugs. I think you can do this without the LSD, but they put a little bit of a hallucinogen under their skin in the morning and what they find is they lost interest in the boring interface in their phones because people on the bus suddenly looked so fascinating to them. The human face is an ratable interface. It can't be reproduced anywhere, Steve. You know, Johnny ive can't make it. They can't make it at Google. And that I think is something we will see young markets doing, which is this renewed appreciation for nature and analog for humans and for analog culture. >>That's right. The Navy is going to sextants and compasses. You may have seen training, they're training sailors on those devices because of the fear that GPS might be hacked. So you know, the young kids probably don't even know what a cup is is, well, I bought myself a compass recently because I suddenly was like, you know, we talk a lot about digital technology, but what the heck, this thing you can point toward the poles, right in my hands. You know, I was suddenly like, we are this floating ball with these poles with different magnetic charges. And I think it's time. I appreciate it. >>Okay, so I've got to ask the, um, the, the feedback that you've gotten from the book, um, again, we hear that every Geneva magic and loss, great, great book. Go by. It's fantastic and open your mind up. It's a, it's a thought provoking, but really specific good use cases. I got a think that, you know, when you talk at Google and when you talk to some of the groups that you're talking to, certainly book clubs and other online that there must be like, Oh my God, you hit the cultural nerve. What have you heard from some of these, um, folks from my age 50 down to the 20 something year olds? Have you had any aha moments where you said, Oh my God, I hit a nerve here. >>Did not want to, I mean, I didn't want to write one of those books. That's like the one thing you need to know to get your startup to succeed or whatever. You know, I was at the airport and every single one of them is like, pop the only thing you need to do to save this or whatever. And they, they do take a very short view. Now if you're thinking about, you know, whether if you're thinking about your quarterly return or your, you know, what you're going to do this quarter and when you're going to be profitable or user acquisition, those books are good manuals. But if you're going to buy a hardcover book and you're going to really invest in reading every page, not just the bolded part, not just the put, you know, the two points that you have to know. I really wanted readers and at what I had found on the internet, people like you, we have an interest in a long view. You know what, I need a really long view >>in a prose that's not for listicle or you know, shorts. It's like it's just a thought provoker but somebody can go, Hey, you know, at the beach on the weekend say, Hey wow, this is really cool. What F you know, we went analog for awhile or what if, what's best for my kids to let my kids play multiplayer games more Zika simulate life. That was my, so these are the kinds of questions that the digital parents are asked. >>Yeah. So you know, like let's take the parents question, which is, is, you know, a, surprisingly to me it's a surprisingly pressing question. I am a parent, but my kids' digital habits are not, you know, of obsessive interest to me. Sometimes I think the worry about our kids is a proxy for how we worry about ourselves. You know, it's funny because they're the, you know, the model of the parent saying my kid has attention deficit order, zero order. My kid has attention deficit disorder. The kids over here, the parents here, you know, who has the attention deficit disorder. But in any case I have realized that parents are talking about uh, computers on the internet as though something kids have to have a very ambivalent relationship with and a very wary relationship with. So limit the time, and it sounds a little bit like the abstinence movement around sexuality that like, you know, you only dip in, it's very, you know, they're only date, right, right, right. >>Instead of joining sides with their kids and helping to create a durable, powerful, interesting online avatar, which is what kids want to do. And it's also what we want to do. So like in your Facebook profile, there are all kinds of strategic groups you can make as a creator of that profile. We know it as adults. Like, do you, some people put up pictures of their kids, some people don't vacation pictures. Some people promote the heck out of themselves. Some people don't do so much of that. Um, do you put up a lot of photographs? Do whatever. Those are the decisions we started to make when went on Facebook at kitchen making the two small armor to have on their gaming profile. That's kind of how they want to play, you know, play for you, going to wear feathers. These are important things. Um, but the uh, you know, small questions like talking to your kids and I don't mean a touchy feely conversation, but literally during the write in all lower case commit, you know, Brighton, all lower case, you're cute and you're this and that means a certain thing and you should get it and you're going to write in all caps and you're going to talk about white nationalist ideology. >>Well that also has a set of consequences. What have you learned in terms of the virtual space? Actually augmented reality, virtual reality, these promise to be virtual spaces. What, what is one of them? They always hope to replicate the real world. The mean, yes. Will there be any parallels of the kind of commitment in the moment? Gives you one thing. I say kids that, you know, the subtitle of the book is the internet as art, magic and loss. The internet is art and the kind of art, the internet is, is what I think of as real estate art. It purports to be reality. You know, every technology pick a photography film says or think of even the introduction of a third dimension in painting, you know, in Renaissance painting perspective for ports to represent reality better than it's been represented before. And if you're right in sync with the technology, you're typically fooled by it. >>I mean, this is a seductive representation of reality. You know, people watching us now believe they're seeing us flush of let us talk. You know, they don't think they're seeing pixels that are designed in certain ways and certainly it's your ways. So trying to sort out the incredibly interesting immersive, artful experience of being online that has some dangers and has some emotions to do it from real life is a really important thing. And you know, for us to learn first and then a model for our kids. So I had a horrible day on Twitter one day, eight 2012 213 worst day ever on Twitter. It was a great day for me. I spent the day at the beach, my Twitter avatar took sniper fire for me all day. People called her an idiot separated amount. I separated them out. And anyone who like likes roleplay and games knows that like I'm not a high priestess in Dentons and dragons. >>You know, I'm a much smaller person than that. And in, in, you know, in the case of this Twitter battle, I'm a less embattled person than the one that takes your armor from me on Twitter. That's my art. Your armor. So let's talk about poetry. Twitter, you mentioned poetry, Twitter, 140 characters. I did 40 characters is a lot. If like a lot of internet users your to have pictographic language like Chinese. So 140 characters is a novel by, well not a novel, but it's a short story for, you know, a writer of short form, short form Chinese aphorisms like Confucius. So one of the things I wanted to say is there's nothing about it being short that makes it low culture. You know, there's, I mean it takes a second to take, to take an a sculpture or to take an a painting and yet like the amount of craft that went into that might be much more good tweeting and you're excellent at it, um, is not easy. You know, I know that times I've been like, I tagged the wrong person and then I have to delete it. Like, because the name didn't come up or you know, I get the hashtags wrong and then I'm like, Oh, it would have been better this other way or I don't have a smart enough interject >>it's like playing sports. Twitter's like, you know, firing under the tennis ball baseline rallies with people. I mean, it's like, it's like there's a cultural thing. And this is the thing that I love about your book is you really bring in the metaphors around art and the cultural aspect. Have you had any, have you found that there's one art period that we represent right now? That it could be a comparison? >>I mean, you know, it's always tempting to care everything to the Renaissance. But you know, obviously in the Italian Renaissance there was so much technological innovation and so much, um, and so much, uh, so much artistic innovation. But, um, you know, the other thing are the Dawn of it's might be bigger than that, which it sounds grounds grandiose, but we're talking about something that nearly 6 billion people use and have access to. So we're talking about something bigger than we've ever seen is the Donovan civilization. So like, we pay a lot of attention to the Aqua docks and Rome and, and you know, later pay to touch it to the frescoes. I attend in this book to the frescoes, to the sculpture, to the music, to the art. So instead of talking about frescoes as an art historian, might I talk about Instagram? Yeah. >>And you, and this thing's all weave together cause we can back to the global fabric. If you look at the civilization as you know you're not to use the world is flat kind of metaphor. But that book kind of brings out that notion of okay if you just say a one global fabric, yes you have poetry, you have photography of soiling with a Johnny Susana ad in London. He says, you know, cricket is a sport in England, a bug and a delicacy depending on where in the world you are. >>Love that is that, I wonder if that's the HSBC had time to actually a beautiful HSBC job has done a beautiful campaign. I should find out who did it about perspective. And that is also a wonderful way to think about the internet because you know, I know a lot of people who don't like Twitter, who don't like YouTube comments. I do like them because I am perpetually surprised at what people bring to their interpretation. Insights in the comments can be revealing. You know, you know, you don't wanna get your feelings hurt. Sometimes you don't want that much exposure to the micro flora and fauna of ideas that could be frightening. But you know, when you're up for it, it's a really nice test of your immune system, you know. All right. So what's next for you? Virginia Heffernan magic and last great book. I think I will continue to write the tech criticism, which is just this growing field. I at Sarah Watson had a wonderful piece today in the Columbia journalism review about how we really need to bring all our faculties to treat, treating to tech criticism meant and treating tech with, um, with Karen, with proper off. Um, and the next book is on anti digital culture. Um, I will continue writing journalism and you'll see little previews of that book in the next work. >>Super inspirational. And I think the culture needs this kind of rallying cry because you know, there is art and science and all this beautiful beauty in the internet and it's not about mutually exclusive analog world. You can look and take, can come offline. So it's interesting case study of this, this revolution I think, and I think the counter culture, if you'd go back and Southern John Markoff about this, when he wrote his first book, the Dormouse wander about the counter culture in Silicon Valley is what's your grade book? And counter cultures usually create a another wave of innovation. So the question that comes out of this one is there could, this could be a seminal moment in history. I mean, I think it absolutely is. You know, in some ways, every moment is a great moment if you know what to make of it. But I am just tired of people telling us that we're ruining our brands and that this is the end of innovation and that we're at some low period. >>I think we will look back and think of this as an incredibly fertile time for our imaginations. If we don't lose hope, if we keep our creativity fired and if we commit to this incredible period we're in Virginia. Thanks for spending the time here in the queue. Really appreciate where you're live at. Silicon Valley is the cube with author Virginia Heffernan magic. And loss. Great book. Get it. If you don't have it, hard copies still available, get it. We'll be right back with more live coverage here. This is the cube. I'm John furry right back with more if the short break.