(upbeat music) >> Welcome to the AWS start up showcase, theCUBE's premiere platform and show. This is our second season, episode one of this program. I'm Lisa Martin, your host here with two guests here to talk about open source. Please welcome Andrew Backes, the VP of engineering at Armory, and one of our alumni, Ian Delahorne, the staff site, reliability engineer at Patreon. Guys, it's great to have you on the program. >> Thank you. >> Good to be back. >> We're going to dig into a whole bunch of stuff here in the next fast paced, 15 minutes. But Andrew, let's go ahead and start with you. Give the audience an overview of Armory, who you guys are, what you do. >> I'd love to. So Armory was founded in 2016 with the vision to help companies unlock innovation through software. And what we're focusing on right now is, helping those companies and make software delivery, continuous, collaborative, scalable, and safe. >> Got it, those are all very important things. Ian help the audience, if anyone isn't familiar with Patreon, it's a very cool platform. Talk to us a little bit about that Ian. >> Absolutely, Patreon is a membership platform for creators to be able to connect with their fans and for fans to be able to subscribe to their favorite creators and help creators get paid and have them earn a living with, just by being connected straight to their audience. >> Very cool, creators like podcasters, even journalists video content writers. >> Absolutely. There's so many, there's everything from like you said, journalists, YouTubers, photographers, 3D modelers. We have a nightclub that's on there, there's several theater groups on there. There's a lot of different creators. I keep discovering new ones every day. >> I like that, I got to check that out, very cool. So Andrew, let's go to your, we talk about enterprise scale and I'm using air quotes here. 'Cause it's a phrase that we use in every conversation in the tech industry, right? Scalability is key. Talk to us about what enterprise scale actually means from Armory's perspective. Why is it so critical? And how do you help enterprises to actually achieve it? >> Yeah, so the, I think a lot of the times when companies think about enterprise scale, they think about the volume of infrastructure, or volume of software that's running at any given time. There's also a few more things that go into that just beyond how many EC2 instances you're running or containers you're running. Also velocity, count how much time does it take you to get features out to your customers and then stability and reliability. Then of course, in enterprises, it isn't as simple as everyone deploying to the same targets. It isn't always just EC2, a lot of the time it's going to be multiple targets, EC2, it's going to be ECS, Lambda. All of these workloads are out there running. And how does a central platform team or a tooling team at a site enable that for users, enable deployment capabilities to those targets? Then of course, on top of that, there's going to be site specific technologies. And how do, how does your deployment tooling integrate with those site specific technologies? >> Is, Andrew is enterprise scale now even more important given the very transformative events, we've seen the last two years? We've seen such acceleration, cloud adoption, digital transformation, really becoming a necessity for businesses to stay alive. Do you think that, that skill now is even more important? >> Definitely, definitely. The, what we see, we've went through a wave of the, the first set of digital transformations, where companies are moving to the cloud and we know that's accelerating quite a bit. So that scale is all moving to the cloud and the amount of multiple targets that are being deployed to at any given moment, they just keep increasing. So that is a concern that companies need to address. >> Let's talk about the value, but we're going to just Spinnaker here in the deployment. But also let's start Andrew with the value that, Armory delivers on top of Spinnaker. What makes this a best of breed solution? >> Yeah, so on top of open-source Spinnaker, there are a lot of other building blocks that you're going to need to deploy at scale. So you're going to need to be able to provide modules or some way of giving your users a reusable building block that is catered to your site. So that is one of the big areas that Armory focuses on, is how can we provide building blocks on top of open source Spinnaker that sites can use to tailor the solution to their needs. >> Got it, tailor it to their needs. Ian let's bring you back into the conversation. Now, talk to us about the business seeds, the compelling event that led Patreon to choose Spinnaker on top of Armory. >> Absolutely. Almost three years ago, we had an outage which resulted in our payment processing slowed down. And that's something we definitely don't want to have happen because this would hinder creator's ability to get paid on time for them to be able to pay their employees, pay their rent, hold that hole, like everything that, everyone that depends on them. And there were many factors that went into this outage and one of them we identified is that it was very hard for us to, with our custom belt deploy tooling, to be able to easily deploy fast and to roll back if things went wrong. So I had used Spinnaker before to previous employer early on, and I knew that, that would be a tool that we could use to solve our problem. The problem was that the SRE team at Patreon at that time was only two people. So Spinnaker is a very complex product. I didn't have the engineering bandwidth to be able to, set up, deploy, manage it on my own. And I had happened to heard of Armory just that week before and was like, "This is the company that could probably help me solve my problems." So I engaged early on with Andrew and the team. And we migrated our customers deployed to, into Spinnaker and help stabilize our deploys and speed them up. >> So you were saying that the deployments were taking way too long before. And of course, as you mentioned from a payment processing perspective, that's people's livelihoods. So that's a pretty serious issue there. You found Armory a week into searching this seems like stuff went pretty quickly. >> And the week before the incident, they had randomly, the, one of the co-founders randomly reached out to me and was like, "We're doing this thing with Armory. You might be interested in this, we're doing this thing with Spinnaker, it's called Armory." And I kind of filed it away. And then they came fortuitous that we were able to use them, like just reach out to them like a week later. >> That is fortuitous, my goodness, what a good outreach and good timing there on Armory's part. And sticking with you a little bit, talk to us about what it is that the business challenges that Armory helps you to resolve? What is it about it that, that just makes you know this is the exact right solution for us? Obviously you talked about not going direct with Spinnaker as a very lean IT team. But what are some of the key business needs that it's solving? >> Yeah, there's several business things that we've been able to leverage Armory for. One of them as I mentioned, they, having a deployment platform that we know will give us, able deploys has been very important. There's been, they have a policy engine module that we use for making sure that certain environments can only be deployed to by certain individuals for compliance issues. We definitely, we use their pipelines as code module for being able to use, build, to build reusable deploy pipelines so that software engineers can easily integrate Spinnaker into their builds. Without having to know a lot about Spinnaker. There's like here, take these, take this pipeline module and add your variables into it, and you'll be off to the races deploying. So those are some of the value adds that Armory has been able to add on top of Spinnaker. On top of that, we use their managed products. So they have a team that's managing our Spinnaker installation, helping us with upgrades, helping up the issues, all that stuff that unlocks us to be able to focus on building our creators. Instead of focusing on operating Spinnaker. >> Andrew, back to you. Talk to me a little bit about as the VP of engineering, the partnership, the relationship that Armory has with Patreon and how symbiotic is it? How much are they helping you to develop the product that Armory is delivering to its customers? >> Yeah, one of the main things we want to make sure we do is help Patreon be successful. So that's, there are going to be some site specific needs there that we want to make sure that we are in tune with and that we're helping with, but really we view it as a partnership. So, Patreon has worked with us. Well, I can't believe it's been three years or kind of a little bit more now. But it's, it, we have had a lot of inner, a lot of feedback sessions, a lot of going back and forth on how we can improve our product to meet the needs of Patreon better. And then of course the wider market. So one thing that is neat about seeing a smaller team, SRE team that Ian is on, is they can depend on us more. They have less bandwidth with themselves to invest into their tooling. So that's the opportunity for us to provide those more mature building blocks to them. So that they can combine those in a way that makes them, that meets their needs and their business needs. >> And Ian, back to you, talk to me about how has the partnership with Armory? You said it's been almost three years now. How has that helped you do your job better as an SRE? What are some of the advantages of that, to that role? >> Yeah, absolutely. Armory has been a great partner to work with. We've used their expertise in helping to bring new features into the open-source Spinnaker. Especially when we decided that we wanted to not only deploy to EC2 instances, but we wanted to play to elastic container service and Lambdas to shift from our normal instance based deploys into the containerization. There were several warrants around the existing elastic container service deploy, and Lambda deploys that we were able to work with Armory and have them champion some changes inside open-source as well as their custom modules to help us be able to shift our displays to those targets. >> Got it. Andrew back over to you, talk to me, I want to walk through, you talked about from an enterprise scale perspective, some of the absolute critical components there. But I want to talk about what Armory has done to help customers like Patreon to address things like speed to market, customer satisfaction as Ian was talking about, the compelling event was payment processing. A lot of content creators could have been in trouble there. Talk to, walk me through how you're actually solving those key challenges that not just Patreon is facing, but enterprises across industries. >> Yeah, of course, so the, talking to specifically to what brought Ian in was, a problem that they needed to fix inside of their system. So when you are rolling out a change like that, you want it to be fast. You want to get that chain, change out very quickly, but you also want to make sure that the deployment system itself is stable and reliable. So the last thing you're going to want is any sort of hiccup with the tool that you're using to fix your product, to roll out changes to your customers. So that is a key focus area for us in everything that we do is we make sure that whenever we're building features that are going to expand capabilities, deployment capabilities. That we're, we are focusing firstly on stability and reliability of the deployment system itself. So those are a few features, a few focus areas that we continually build into the product. And you can, I mean, I'm sure a lot of enterprises know that as soon as you start doing things at massive scale, sometimes the stability and reliability, can, you'll be jeopardized a little bit. Or you start hitting against those limits or what are the, what walls do you encounter? So one of the key things we're doing is building ahead of that, making sure that our features are enabling users to hit deployment scales they've never seen or imagined before. So that's a big part of what Armory is. >> Ian, can you add a number to that in terms of the before Armory and the after in terms of that velocity? >> Absolutely, before Armory our deploys would take some times, somewhere around 45 minutes. And we cut that in half, if not more to down to like the like 16 to 20 minute ranges where we are currently deploying to a few hundred hosts. So, and that is the previous deployment strategy would take longer. If we scaled up the number of instances for big events, like our payment processing we do the first of the month currently. So being able to have that and know that our deploys will take about the same amount of time each time, it will be faster. That helps us bring features to create some fans a lot faster. And the stability aspect has also been very important, knowing that we have a secure way to roll back if needed, which you didn't have previously in case something goes wrong, that's been extremely useful. >> And I can imagine, Ian that velocity is critical because I mean more and more and more these days, there are content creators everywhere in so many different categories that we've talked about. Even nightclubs, that to be able to deliver that velocity through a part, a technology like Armory is table-stakes for against business. >> Absolutely, yeah. >> Andrew, back over to you. I want to kind of finish out here with, in the last couple of years where things have been dynamic. Have you seen any leading indices? I know you guys work with enterprises across organizations and Fortune 500s. But have you seen any industries in particular that are really leaning on Armory to help them achieve that velocity that we've been talking about? >> We have a pretty good spread across the market, but since we are focused on cloud, to deploy to cloud technologies, that's one of the main value props for Armory. So that's going to be enabling deployments to AWS in similar clouds. So the companies that we work with are really ones that have either already gone through that transformation or are on their journey. Then of course, now Kubernetes is a force, it's kind of taken over. So we're getting pulled into even more companies that are embracing Kubernetes. So I wouldn't say that there's an overall trend, but we have customers all across the Fortune 500, all across mid-market to Fortune 500. So there's depending on the complexity of the corporation itself or the enterprise itself we're able to do. I think Ian mentioned our policy engine and a few other features that are really tailored to companies that have restricted environments and moving into the cloud. >> Got it, and that's absolutely critical these days to help organizations pivot multiple times and to get that speed to market. 'Cause that's, of course as consumers, whether we're on the business side or the commercial side, we have an expectation that we're going to be able to get whatever we want A-S-A-P. And especially if that's payments processing, that's pretty critical. Guys, thank you for joining me today, talking about Armory, built on Spinnaker, what it's doing for customers like Patreon. We appreciate your time and your insights. >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you. Thank you so much. >> For my guests, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE's, AWS startup showcase, season two, episode one. (upbeat music)

>>Welcome to the cube conversation here. I'm Sean ferry with the cube in Palo Alto, California. We've got two great guests here featuring armory who has with them Patrion open-source and talking open source and the enterprise. I'm your host, John ferry with the cube. Thanks for watching guys. Thanks for coming on. Really appreciate. I've got two great guests, Ben mapping, and SVP, a strategic partner in the armory and Ian Della horn, S staff SRE at Patrion gentlemen, you know, open source and enterprise is here and we wouldn't talk about thanks for coming. I appreciate it. >>Yeah. Thank you, John. Really happy to be here. Thank you to the Cuban and your whole crew. I'll start with a quick intro. My name is Ben Mappin, farmers founders, lead strategic partnerships. As John mentioned, you know, it all, it really starts with a premise that traditional businesses, such as hotels, banks, car manufacturers are now acting and behaving much more like software companies than they did in the past. And so if you believe that that's true. What does it mean? It means that these businesses need to get great at delivering their software and specifically to the cloud, like AWS. And that's exactly what armory aims to do for our customers. We're based on opensource Spinnaker, which is a continuous delivery platform. And, and I'm very happy that Ian from Patrion is here to talk about our journey together >>And introduce yourself what you do at Patriot and when Patrion does, and then why you guys together here? What's the, what's the story? >>Absolutely. Hi, John and Ben. Thanks for, thanks for having me. So I am Ian. I am a site reliability engineer at Patrion and Patrion is a membership platform for creators. And what we're our mission is to get creators paid, changing the way the art is valued so that creators can make money by having a membership relationship with, with fans. And we are, we're built on top of AWS and we are using Spinnaker with armory to deploy our applications that, you know, help, help creators get paid. Basically >>Talk about the original story of Ben. How are you guys together? What brought you together? Obviously patron is well-known in the creator circles. Congratulations, by the way, all your success. You've done a great service for the industry and have changed the game you were doing creators before it was fashionable. And also you got some cutting-edge decentralization business models as well. So again, we'll come back to that in a minute, but Ben, talk about how this all comes together. Yeah, >>Yeah. So Ian's got a great kind of origin story on our relationship together. I'll give him a lead in which is, you know, what we've learned over the years from our large customers is that in order to get great at deploying software, it really comes down to three things or at least three things. The first being velocity, you have to ship your software with velocity. So if you're deploying your software once a quarter or even once a year, that does no good to your customers or to your business, like just code sitting in a feature branch on a shelf, more or less not creating any business value. So you have to ship with speed. Second, you have to ship with reliability. So invariably there will be bugs. There will be some outages, but you know, one of the things that armory provides with Spinnaker open sources, the ability to create hardened deployment pipeline so that you're testing the right things at the right times with the right folks involved to do reviews. >>And if there is hopefully not, but if there is a problem in production, you're isolating that problem to a small group of users. And then we call this the progressive deployment or Canary deployment where you're deploying to a small number of users. You measure the results, make sure it's good, expand it and expand it. And so I think, you know, preventing outages is incredibly incredibly important. And then the last thing is being able to deploy multi target multi-cloud. And so in the AWS ecosystem, we're talking about ECS, EKS Lambda. And so I think that these pieces of value or kind of the, the pain points that, that enterprises face can resonate with a lot of companies out there, including ENN Patriot. And so I'll, I'll, I'll let you tell the story. >>Yeah, go ahead. Absolutely. Thanks. Thanks for the intro, man. So background background of our partnership with armory as back in the backend, February of 2019, we had a payments payments slowed down for payments processing, and we were risking not getting creators paid on time, which is a doc great for creators because they rely on us for income to be able to pay themselves, pay their rent or mortgage, but also pay staff because they have video editors, website admins, people that nature work with them. And there were, they're a very, there's a very many root causes to this, to this incident, all kind of culminate at once. One of the things that we saw was that deploying D point fixes to remediate. This took too long or taking at least 45 minutes to deploy a new version of the application. And so we've had continuous delivery before using a custom custom home built, rolling deploy. >>We needed to get that time down. We also needed to be secure in our knowledge of like that deploy was stable. So we had had to place a break in the middle due to various factors that that can happen during the deploy previously, I had used a Spinnaker at previous employers. I have been set it up myself and introduced it. And I knew about, I knew like, oh, this is something we could, this would be great. But the Patriot team, the patron SRE team at that time was two people. So I don't have the ability to manage Spinnaker on my own. It's a complex open-source product. It can do a lot of things. There's a lot of knobs to tweak a lot of various settings and stuff you need to know about tangentially. One of the co-founders of, of armory had been, had to hit, had hit me up earlier. I was like, Hey, have you heard of armory? We're doing this thing, opens our Spinnaker, we're packaging this and managing it, check us out if you want. I kind of like filed it away. Like, okay, well that might be something we can use later. And then like two weeks later, I was like, oh wait, this company that does Spinnaker, I know of them. We should probably have a conversation with them and engage with them. >>And so you hit him up and said, Hey, too many knobs and buttons to push what's the deal. >>Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I was, I was like, Hey, so by the way, I about that thing, how, how soon can you get someone get someone over here? >>So Ben take us through the progression. Cause that really is how things work in the open source. Open source is really one of those things where a lot of community outreach, a lot of people are literally a one degree or two separation from someone who either wrote the project or is involved in the project. Here's a great example. He saw the need for Spinnaker. The business model was there for him to solve. Okay. Fixes rolling deployments, homegrown all the things, pick your pick, your use case, but he wanted to make it easier. This tends to, this is kind of a pattern. What did you guys do? What's the next step? How did this go from here? >>Yeah. You know, Spinnaker being source is critical to armory's success. Many companies, not just pastry on open source software, I think is not really debatable anymore in terms of being applicable to enterprise companies. But the thing with selling open source software to large companies is that they need a backstop. They need not just enterprise support, but they need features and functionality that enable them to use that software at scale and safely. And so those are really the things that, that we focus on and we use open source as a really, it's a great community to collaborate and to contribute fixes that other companies can use. Other companies contribute fixes and functionality that we then use. But it's, it's really a great place to get feedback and to find new customers that perhaps need that enhanced level of functionality and support. And, and I'm very, very happy that Patrion was one of those companies. >>Okay. So let's talk about the Patrion. Okay. Obviously scaling is a big part of it. You're an SRE site, reliability engineers with folks who don't know what that is, is your, your job is essentially, you know, managing scale. Some say you the dev ops manager, but that's not really right answer. What is the SRE role at patriotics share with folks out there who are either having an SRE. They don't even know it yet or need to have SRS because this is a huge transition that, and new, new and emerging must have role in companies, >>Right? Yeah. We're the history of Patrion covers a lot. We cover a wide swath of a wide swath of, of, of things that we work with and, and areas that we consider to be our, our purview. Not only are we working on working with our AWS environment, but we also are involved in how can we make the site more reliable or performance so that, so that creators fans have a good experience. So we work with our content delivery numbers or caching strategies for caching caching assets. We work inside the application itself for doing performance performance, a hassle. This is also in proving observability with distributed tracing and metrics on a lot of that stuff, but also on the build and deploy side, if we can, if we can get that deploy time faster, like give engineers faster feedback on features that they're working on or bug fixes and also being secure and knowing that the, the code that they're working on it gets delivered reliably. >>Yeah. I think I, you have the continuous delivery is always the, the, the killer killer workflow as both the Spinnaker question here. Well, how has Spinnaker, well, what, how, how does Spinnaker being an open source project help you guys? I mean, obviously open source code is great. How has that been significant and beneficial for both armory and Patrion? >>Yeah, I'll take the first stab at this one. And it starts at the beginning. Spinnaker was created by Netflix and since Netflix open source that four or five years ago, there have been countless and significant contributions from many other companies, including armory, including AWS and those contributions collectively push the industry forward and allow the, the companies that, you know, that use open-source Spinnaker or armory, they can now benefit from all of the collective effort together. So just that community aspect working together is huge. Absolutely huge. And, you know, open source, I guess on the go-to-market side is a big driver for us. You know, there's many, many companies using open-source Spinnaker in production that are not our customers yet. And we, we survey them. We want to know how they're using open-source Spinnaker so that we can then improve open-source Spinnaker, but also build features that are critical for large companies to run at scale, deploy at scale, deploy with velocity and with reliability. >>Yeah. What's your take on, on the benefits of Spinnaker being open source? >>A lot of what Ben, it's been really beneficial to be able to like, be able to go in and look at the source code for components. I've been wondering something like, why is this thing working like this? Or how did they solve this? It's also been useful for, I can go ask the community for, for advice on things. If armory doesn't has the, it doesn't have the time or bandwidth to work on some things I've been able to ask the special interest groups in the source community. Like, can we, can we help improve this or something like that. And I've also been able to commit simple bug fixes for features that I've, that I've needed. I was like, well, I don't need to, I don't need to go engage are very on this. I can just like, I can just write up a simple patch on and have that out for review. >>You know, that's the beautiful thing about open sources. You get the source code and that's, and some people just think it's so easy, Ben, you know, just, Hey, just give me the open source. I'll code it. I got an unlimited resource team. Not, not always the case. So I gotta ask you guys on Patrion. Why use a company like armory, if you have the open source code and armory, why did you build a business on the open source project? Like Spinnaker? >>Yeah. Like I see. Absolutely. Yeah. Like I, like I said earlier, the atrium, the Patrion SRE team was wasn't is fairly small. There's two people. Now we're six. People are still people down. We're six people now. So being sure we could run a Spinnaker on our own if we, if we wanted to. And, but then we'd have no time to do anything else basically. And that's not the best use of our, of our creators money. Our fans, the fans being the creators artists. We have obviously take a percentage on top of that. And we, we need to spend our, that money well, and having armory who's dedicated to the Spinnaker is dedicated, involved the open source project. But also there are experts on this Sunday. It was something that would take me like a week of stumbling around trying to find documentation on how to set this thing up. They done this like 15, 20 times and they can just go, oh yeah, this is what we do for this. And let me go fix it for you >>At score. You know, you've got a teammate. I think that's where, what you're getting at. I got to ask you what other things is that free you up? Because this is the classic business model of life. You know, you have a partner you're moving fast, it slows you down to get into it. Sure. You can do it yourself, but why it's faster to go with it, go together with a partner and a wing man as we will. What things did does that free you up to work on as an SRE? >>Oh, that's freed me up to work on a bigger parts of our build and deploy pipeline. It's freed me up to work on moving from a usage based deploys onto a containerization strategy. It's freed me up to work on more broader observability issues instead of just being laser-focused on running an operating spending. >>Yeah. And that really kind of highlights. I'm glad you said that because it highlights what's going on. You had a lot of speed and velocity. You've got scale, you've got security and you've got new challenges you got to fix in and move fast. It's a whole new world. So again, this is why I love cloud native. Right? So you got open source, you got scale and you guys are applying directly to the, to the infrastructure of the business. So Ben, I got to ask you armory. Co-founder why did you guys build your business on an open source project? Like Spinnaker? What was the mindset? How did you attack this? What did you guys do? Take us through that piece because this is truly a great entrepreneurial story about open source. >>Yeah. Yeah. I'll give you the abridged version, which is that my co-founders and I, we solved the same problem, which is CD at a previous company, but we did it kind of the old fashioned way we home role. We handled it ourselves. We built it on top of Jenkins and it was great for that company, but, and that was kind of the inspiration for us to then ask questions. Hey, is this bigger? We, when at the time we found that Spinnaker had just been, you know, dog food inside of Netflix and they were open sourcing it. And we thought it was a great opportunity for us to partner. But the bigger reason is that Spinnaker is a platform that deploys to other platforms like AWS and Kubernetes and the sheer amount of surface area that's required to build a great product is enormous. And I actually believe that the only way to be successful in this space is to be open source, to have a community of large companies and passionate developers that contribute the roads if you will, to deploy into various targets. >>And so that's the reason, number one for it being open source and us wanting to build our business on top of open source. And then the second reason is because we focus almost exclusively on solving enterprise scale problems. We have a platform that needs to be extensible and open source is by definition extensible. So our customers, I mean, Ian just had a great example, right? Like he needed to fix something he was able to do so solve it in open source. And then, you know, shortly thereafter that that fix in mainline gets into the armory official build and then he can consume his fix. So we see a lot of that from our other customers. And then even, you know, take a very, very large company. They may have custom off that they need to integrate with, but that doesn't, that's not in open-source Spinnaker, but they can go and build that themselves. >>Yeah, it's real. It really is the new modern way to develop. And I, you know, last 80 with startup showcase last season, Emily Freeman gave a talk on, you know, you know, retiring, I call it killing the software, SDLC, the lifecycle of how software was developed in the past. And I got to ask you guys, and, and this cube conversation is that this is kind of like the, the kind of the big wave we're on now is cloud scale, open source, cloud, native data security, all being built in on this in the pipelines to your point is SRS enabling a new infrastructure and a new environment for people to build essentially SAS. So I got to ask you guys as, and you mentioned it Ben, the old way you hand rolled something, Netflix, open source, something, you got to look at Lyft with Envoy. I mean, large-scale comes, are donating their stuff into open source and people getting on top of it and building it. So the world's changed. So we've got to ask you, what's the difference between standing up a SAS application today versus say five to eight years ago, because we all see salesforce.com. You know, they're out there, they built their own data center. Cloud skills changed the dynamics of how software is being built. And with open-source accelerating every quarter, you're seeing more growth in software. How has building a platform for applications changed and how has that changed? How people build SAS applications, Ben, what's your take on this? It's kind of a thought exercise here. >>Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't even call it a thought exercise. We're seeing it firsthand from our customers. And then I'll, you know, I'll, I'll give my answer and you can weigh in on like practical, like what you're actually doing at Patrion with SAS, but the, the costs and the kind of entry fee, if you will, for building a SAS application has tremendously dropped. You don't need to buy servers and put them inside data centers anymore. You just spin up a VM or Kubernetes cluster with AWS. AWS has led the way in public cloud to make this incredible easy. And the tool sets being built around cloud native, like armory and like many other companies in the space are making it even easier. So we're just seeing the proliferation of, of software being developed and, and hopefully, you know, armory is playing a role in, in making it easier and better. >>So before we get to Unum for a second, I just want to just double down on it because there's great conversation that implies that there's going to be a new migration of apps everywhere, right. As tsunami of clutter good or bad, is that good or bad or is it all open source? Is it all good then? >>Absolutely good. For sure. There will be, you know, good stuff developed and not so good stuff developed, but survival of the fittest will hopefully promote those, the best apps with the highest value to the end user and, and society at large and push us all forward. So, >>And what's your take, obviously, Kubernetes, you seeing things like observability talking about how we're managing stateful and services that are being deployed and tear down in real time, automated, all new things are developing. How does building a true scalable SAS application change today versus say five, eight years ago? >>I mean, like you said, there's a, there's a lot, there's a lot of new, both open source. So SAS products available that you can use to build a scale stuff. Like if you're going to need that to build like secure authentication, instead of having to roll that out and you could go with something like Okta raw zero, you can just pull that off the shelf stuff for like managing push notifications before that was like something really hard to really hard to do. Then Firebase came on the scene and also for manic state and application and stuff like that. And also for like being, being able to deliver before >>You had Jenkins, maybe even for that, you didn't really have anything Jenkins came along. And then now you have open-source products like Spinnaker that you can use to deliver. And then you have companies built around that, that you can just go and say, Hey, can you please help us deliver this? Like you just help us, enable us to be able to build, build our products so that we can focus on delivering value to our creators and fans instead of having to focus on, on other things. >>So bill it builds faster. You can compose stuff faster. You don't have to roll your own code. You can just roll your own modules basically, and then exactly what prietary on top of it. Absolutely. Yeah. And that's why commercial open source is booming. Guys. Thank you so much, Ben, congratulations on armory and great to have you on from Patrion well-known success. So we'll accompany you congratulate. If we don't know patriarch, check it out, they have changed the game on creators and leading the industry. Ben. Great, great shot with armory and Spinnaker. Thanks for coming on. Thank you >>So much. Thank you >>So much. Okay. I'm Sean Ferrer here with the cube conversation with Palo Alto. Thanks for watching.

(intro music) >> Hi everybody. Dave Vellante, back with Day Two coverage, we're live at the ARIA Hotel in Las Vegas for fal.con '22. Several thousand people here today. The keynote was, it was a little light. I think people were out late last night, but the keynote was outstanding and it's still going on. We had to break early because we have to strike early today, but we're really excited to have Stephan Goldberg here, Vice President of Technology Alliances at Claroty. And we're going to talk about an extremely important topic, which is the internet of things, the edge, we talk about it a lot. We haven't covered securing the edge here at theCUBE this week. And so Stephan really excited to have you on. >> Thank you for having me. >> You're very welcome. Tell us more about Claroty, C-L-A-R-O-T-Y, a very interesting spelling, but what's it all about? >> Claroty is cybersecurity company that specializes in cyber physical systems, also known as operational technology systems and the extended internet of things. The difference between the traditional IoT and what what everyone calls an IoT in the cyber physical system is that an IoT device has anything connected on the network that traditionally cannot carry an agent, a security camera, a card reader. A cyber physical system is a system that has influence and operates in the physical world but is controlled from the cyberspace. An example would be a controller, a turbine, a robotic arm, or an MRI machine. >> Yeah, so those are really high-end systems, run, are looked after by engineers, not necessarily consumers. So what's what's happening in that world? I mean, we've talked a lot on theCUBE about the schism between OT and IT, they haven't really talked a lot, but in the last several years, they've started to talk more. You look at the ecosystem of IoT providers. I mean, it's companies like Hitachi and PTC and Siemens. I mean, it's the different names than we're used to in IT. What are the big trends that you're seeing the macro? >> So, first of all, traditionally, most manufacturers and environments that were heavy on operations, operational technology, they had the networks air-gapped, completely separated. You had your IT network for business administration, you had the OT network to actually build stuff. Today with emerging technologies and even modern switching architecture everything is being converged. You have the same physical infrastructure in terms of networking, that carries both networks. Sometimes a human error, sometimes a business logic that needs to interconnect these networks to transmit data from the OT side of the house, to the IT side of the house, exposes the OT environment to cyber threats. >> Was that air-gap by design or was it just that there wasn't connectivity? >> It was air-gap by design, due to security and operational reasons, and also ownership in these organizations. The IT-managed space was completely separate from the OT-managed space. So whoever built a network for the controllers to build a car, for example, was an automation engineer and the vendors, that have built these networks, were automation vendors, unlike the traditional Ciscos of the world, that we're specializing in IT. Today we're seeing the IT vendors on the OT side, and the OT vendors, they're worried about the IT side. >> But I mean, tradition, I mean, engineers are control freaks. No offense, but, I'm glad they are, I'm thankful for that. So there must have been some initial reticence to them connecting up these air-gap systems. They went wanted to make sure that they were secure, that they did it right, and presumably that's where you guys come in. What are the exposures and risks of these, of this critical infrastructure that we should be aware of? >> So you're completely right. And from an operational perspective let let's call it change control is very rigorous. So they did not want to go on the internet and just, we're seeing it with adoption of cloud technologies, for example. Cloud as in industry four ago, five ago, cloud as in cyber security. We all heard Amol's keynote from this morning talking about critical infrastructures and we'll touch upon our partnership in a second, but CrowdStrike, CrowdStrike being considered and deployed within these environments is a new thing. It's a new thing because the OT operation managers and the chief information security officers, they understand that air-gap is no longer a valid strategy. From a business perspective, these networks are already connected. We're seeing the trends of cyber attacks, IT cyber attacks, like not Patreon, I'm not talking about the Stoxnet, the targeted OT. I'm talking about WannaCry, EternalBlue, IT vulnerabilities that did not target OT, but due to the outdated and the specification of OT posture on the networks, they hit healthcare, they hit OT much harder than they did IT. >> Was Log4J, did that sleep into OT, or any IT that. >> So, absolutely. >> So Log4J right, which was so pervasive, like so many of these malwares. >> All these vulnerabilities that, it's a windows vulnerability, it has nothing to do with OT. But then when you stop and you say, hold on, my human machine interface workstation, although it has some proprietary software by Rockwell or Siemens running on it, what is the underlying operating system? Oh, hold on, it's Windows. We haven't updated that for like eight years. We were focused on updating the software but not the underlying operating system. The vulnerabilities exist to a greater extent on the OT side of the house because of the same characteristic of operational technology environments. >> So the brute force air-gap approach was no longer viable because the business imperative came in and said, no, we have to connect these systems to digitally transform, or advance our business, there's opportunities to monetize, whatever it was. The business laid that out as an imperative. So now OT engineers have to rethink how they secure it. So what are the steps that they're taking and how does Claroty help? Is there a sort of a playbook, a sequential playbook? >> Absolutely, so before we discussed the maturity curve of adopting an CPS security, or OT security technology, let's touch upon the characteristic of the space and what it led vendors like Claroty to build. So you have the rigorous chain control. You have the security in mind, operations, lowered the risk state of mind. That led vendors, likes of Claroty, to build a solution. And I'm talking about seven, eight years ago, to be passive, mostly passive or passive only to inspect network and to analyze network and focus on detection rather than taking action like response or preventative maintenance. >> Um-hmm. >> It made vendors to build on-prem solutions because of the cloud-averse state of mind of this industry. And because OT is very specific, it led vendors to focus only on OT devices, overlooking what we discussed as IoT, Unfortunately, besides HMI and PLC, the controller in the plant, you also have the security camera. So when you install an OT security solution I'm talking about the traditional ones, they traditionally overlook the security camera or anything that is not considered traditional OT. These three observations, although they were necessary in the beginning, you understand the shortcomings of it today. >> Um-hmm. >> So cloud-averse led to on-prem which leads to war security. It's like comparing CrowdStrike and one of its traditional competitors in the antivirus space. What CrowdStrike innovated is the SaaS first, cloud-native solution that is continuously being updated and provide the best in cloud security, right? And that is very much like what Claroty's building. We decided to go SaaS first and cloud-native solution. >> So, because of cloud-aversion, the industry shows somewhat outdated deployment models, on-prem, which limited scale and created greater diversity, more stovepipes, all the problems that we always talk about. Okay, and so is the answer to that, just becoming more cloud, having more of an affinity to cloud? That was a starting point, right. >> This is exactly it. Air-gap is perceived as secured, but you don't get updates and you don't really know what's going on in your network. If you have a Claroty or a crosswork installer, you have much higher probability detecting fast and responding fast. If you don't have it, you are just blind. You will be bridged, that's the. >> I was going to say, plus, air-gap, it's true, but people can get through air-gaps, too. I mean, it's harder, but Stoxnet. Yeah, look at Stoxnet right, oh, it's mopping the floor, boom, or however it happened, but so yeah. >> Correct. >> So, but the point being, you know, assume that breach, even though I know CrowdStrike thinks that the unstoppable breach is a myth, but you know, you talk to people like Kevin Mandia, it's like, we assume you're going to get breached, right? Let's make that assumption. Yeah, okay, and so that means you've got to have visibility into the network. So what are those steps that you would, what's that maturity model that you referenced before? >> So on top of these underlying principles, which is cloud-native, comprehensive, not OT only, but XIoT, and then bring that the verticalization and OT specificity. On top of that, you're exactly right. There is a maturity curve. You cannot boil the ocean, deploy protections, and change the environment within one day. It starts with discovering everything that is connected to your network. Everything from the traditional workstations to the cameras, and of course ending up with the cyber physical systems on the network. That discovery cannot be only a high level profile, it needs to be in depth to the level you need to know application versions of these devices. If you cannot tell the application version you cannot correlate it to a vulnerability, right? Just knowing that's an HMI or that's a PLC by Siemens is insufficient. You need to know the app version, then you can correlate to vulnerability, then you can correlate to risk. This is the next step, risk assessment. You need to put up a score basically, on each one of these devices. A vulnerability score, risk score, in order to prioritize action. >> Um-hmm. >> These two steps are discovery and thinking about the environment. The next two steps are taking action. After we have the prioritized devices discovered on your network, our approach is that you need to ladle in and deploy protections from a preventative perspective. Claroty delivers recommended policies in the form of access control lists or rules. >> Right. >> That can leverage existing infrastructure without touching a device without patching it, just to protect it. The next step would be detection and response. Once you have these policies deployed you also can leverage them to spot policy deviations. >> And that's where CrowdStrike comes in. So talk about how you guys partner with CrowdStrike, what that integration looks like and what the differentiation is. >> So actually the integration with CrowdStrike crosses the the entire customer journey. It starts with visibility. CrowdStrike and us exchange data on the asset level. With the announcement during FalCon, with Falcon Discover for IoT, we are really, really proud working on that with CrowdStrike. Traditionally CrowdStrike discovered and provided data about the IT assets. And we did the same thing with CPS and OT. Today with Falcon Discover for IoT, and us expanding to the XIoT space, both of us look at all devices but we can discover different things. When you merge these data sets you have an unparalleled visibility into any environment, and specifically OT. The integrations continue, and maybe the second spotlight I'll put, but without diminishing the other ones, is detection and response. It's the XDR Alliance. Claroty is very proud to be one of the first partners, XDR Alliance partners, for CrowdStrike, fitting in to the XDR, to CrowdStrike's XDR, the data that is needed to mitigate and respond and get more context about breaches in these OT environments, but also take action. Also trigger action, via Claroty and leverage Claroty's network-centric capabilities to respond. >> We hear a lot. We heard a lot in today's keynote note about the data, the importance of data, of the graph database. How unique is this Stephan, in the industry, in your view? >> The uniqueness of what exactly? >> Of this joint solution, if you will, this capability. >> I told my counterparts from CrowdStrike yesterday, the go-to market ones and the product management ones. If we are successful with Falcon Discover for IoT, and that product matures, as we plan for it to mature, it will change the industry, the OT security industry, for all of us. Not only for Claroty, for all players in this space. And this is why it's so important for us to stay coordinated and support this amazing company to enter this space and provide better security to organizations that really support our lives. >> We got to leave it there, but this is such an important topic. We're seeing in the war in Ukraine, there's a cyber component in the future of war. >> Yes. >> Today. And what do they do? They go after critical infrastructure. So protecting that critical infrastructure is so important, especially for a country like the United States, which has so much critical infrastructure and a lot to lose. So Stephan, thanks so much. >> Thank you. >> For the work that you're doing. It was great to have you on theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> All right, keep it right there. Dave Vellante for theCUBE. We'll be right back from fal.con '22. We're live from the ARIA in Las Vegas. (techno music)

(gentle upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome to theCUBE presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase Open Cloud Innovations. This is season two episode one of an ongoing series covering setting status from the AWS ecosystem. Talking about innovation, here it's open source for this theme. We do this every episode, we pick a theme and have a lot of fun talking to the leaders in the industry and the hottest startups. I'm your host John Furrier here with Lisa Martin in our Palo Alto studios. Lisa great series, great to see you again. >> Good to see you too. Great series, always such spirited conversations with very empowered and enlightened individuals. >> I love the episodic nature of these events, we get more stories out there than ever before. They're the hottest startups in the AWS ecosystem, which is dominating the cloud sector. And there's a lot of them really changing the game on cloud native and the enablement, the stories that are coming out here are pretty compelling, not just from startups they're actually penetrating the enterprise and the buyers are changing their architectures, and it's just really fun to catch the wave here. >> They are, and one of the things too about the open source community is these companies embracing that and how that's opening up their entry to your point into the enterprise. I was talking with several customers, companies who were talking about the 70% of their pipeline comes from the open source community. That's using the premium version of the technology. So, it's really been a very smart, strategic way into the enterprise. >> Yeah, and I love the format too. We get the keynote we're doing now, opening keynote, some great guests. We have Sir John on from AWS started program, he is the global startups lead. We got Swami coming on and then closing keynote with Deepak Singh. Who's really grown in the Amazon organization from containers now, compute services, which now span how modern applications are being built. And I think the big trend that we're seeing that these startups are riding on that big wave is cloud natives driving the modern architecture for software development, not just startups, but existing, large ISV and software companies are rearchitecting and the customers who buy their products and services in the cloud are rearchitecting too. So, it's a whole new growth wave coming in, the modern era of cloud some say, and it's exciting a small startup could be the next big name tomorrow. >> One of the things that kind of was a theme throughout the conversations that I had with these different guests was from a modern application security perspective is, security is key, but it's not just about shifting lab. It's about doing so empowering the developers. They don't have to be security experts. They need to have a developer brain and a security heart, and how those two organizations within companies can work better together, more collaboratively, but ultimately empowering those developers, which goes a long way. >> Well, for the folks who are watching this, the format is very simple. We have a keynote, editorial keynote speakers come in, and then we're going to have a bunch of companies who are going to present their story and their showcase. We've interviewed them, myself, you Dave Vallante and Dave Nicholson from theCUBE team. They're going to tell their stories and between the companies and the AWS heroes, 14 companies are represented and some of them new business models and Deepak Singh who leads the AWS team, he's going to have the closing keynote. He talks about the new changing business model in open source, not just the tech, which has a lot of tech, but how companies are being started around the new business models around open source. It's really, really amazing. >> I bet, and does he see any specific verticals that are taking off? >> Well, he's seeing the contribution from big companies like AWS and the Facebook's of the world and large companies, Netflix, Intuit, all contributing content to the open source and then startups forming around them. So Netflix does some great work. They donated to open source and next thing you know a small group of people get together entrepreneurs, they form a company and they create a platform around it with unification and scale. So, the cloud is enabling this new super application environment, superclouds as we call them, that's emerging and this new supercloud and super applications are scaling data-driven machine learning and AI that's the new formula for success. >> The new formula for success also has to have that velocity that developers expect, but also that the consumerization of tech has kind of driven all of us to expect things very quickly. >> Well, we're going to bring in Serge Shevchenko, AWS Global Startup program into the program. Serge is our partner. He is the leader at AWS who has been working on this program Serge, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Yeah, likewise, John, thank you for having me very excited to be here. >> We've been working together on collaborating on this for over a year. Again, season two of this new innovative program, which is a combination of CUBE Media partnership, and AWS getting the stories out. And this has been a real success because there's a real hunger to discover content. And then in the marketplace, as these new solutions coming from startups are the next big thing coming. So, you're starting to see this going on. So I have to ask you, first and foremost, what's the AWS startup showcase about. Can you explain in your terms, your team's vision behind it, and why those startup focus? >> Yeah, absolutely. You know John, we curated the AWS Startup Showcase really to bring meaningful and oftentimes educational content to our customers and partners highlighting innovative solutions within these themes and ultimately to help customers find the best solutions for their use cases, which is a combination of AWS and our partners. And really from pre-seed to IPO, John, the world's most innovative startups build on AWS. From leadership downward, very intentional about cultivating vigorous AWS community and since 2019 at re:Invent at the launch of the AWS Global Startup program, we've helped hundreds of startups accelerate their growth through product development support, go to market and co-sell programs. >> So Serge question for you on the theme of today, John mentioned our showcases having themes. Today's theme is going to cover open source software. Talk to us about how Amazon thinks about opensource. >> Sure, absolutely. And I'll just touch on it briefly, but I'm very excited for the keynote at the end of today, that will be delivered by Deepak the VP of compute services at AWS. We here at Amazon believe in open source. In fact, Amazon contributes to open source in multiple ways, whether that's through directly contributing to third-party project, repos or significant code contributions to Kubernetes, Rust and other projects. And all the way down to leadership participation in organizations such as the CNCF. And supporting of dozens of ISV myself over the years, I've seen explosive growth when it comes to open source adoption. I mean, look at projects like Checkov, within 12 months of launching their open source project, they had about a million users. And another great example is Falco within, under a decade actually they've had about 37 million downloads and that's about 300% increase since it's become an incubating project in the CNCF. So, very exciting things that we're seeing here at AWS. >> So explosive growth, lot of content. What do you hope that our viewers and our guests are going to be able to get out of today? >> Yeah, great question, Lisa. I really hope that today's event will help customers understand why AWS is the best place for them to run open source, commercial and which partner solutions will help them along their journey. I think that today the lineup through the partner solutions and Deepak at the end with the ending keynote is going to present a very valuable narrative for customers and startups in selecting where and which projects to run on AWS. >> That's great stuff Serge would love to have you on and again, I want to just say really congratulate your team and we enjoy working with them. We think this showcase does a great service for the community. It's kind of open source in its own way if I can co contributing working on out there, but you're really getting the voices out at scale. We've got companies like Armory, Kubecost, Sysdig, Tidelift, Codefresh. I mean, these are some of the companies that are changing the game. We even had Patreon a customer and one of the partners sneak with security, all the big names in the startup scene. Plus AWS Deepak saying Swami is going to be on the AWS Heroes. I mean really at scale and this is really a great. So, thank you so much for participating and enabling all of this. >> No, thank you to theCUBE. You've been a great partner in this whole process, very excited for today. >> Thanks Serge really appreciate it. Lisa, what a great segment that was kicking off the event. We've got a great lineup coming up. We've got the keynote, final keynote fireside chat with Deepak Singh a big name at AWS, but Serge in the startup showcase really innovative. >> Very innovative and in a short time period, he talked about the launch of this at re:Invent 2019. They've helped hundreds of startups. We've had over 50 I think on the showcase in the last year or so John. So we really gotten to cover a lot of great customers, a lot of great stories, a lot of great content coming out of theCUBE. >> I love the openness of it. I love the scale, the storytelling. I love the collaboration, a great model, Lisa, great to work with you. We also Dave Vallante and Dave Nicholson interview. They're not here, but let's kick off the show. Let's get started with our next guest Swami. The leader at AWS Swami just got promoted to VP of the database, but also he ran machine learning and AI at AWS. He is a leader. He's the author of the original DynamoDB paper, which is celebrating its 10th year anniversary really impacted distributed computing and open source. Swami's introduced many opensource aspects of products within AWS and has been a leader in the engineering side for many, many years at AWS, from an intern to now an executive. Swami, great to see you. Thanks for coming on our AWS startup showcase. Thanks for spending the time with us. >> My pleasure, thanks again, John. Thanks for having me. >> I wanted to just, if you don't mind asking about the database market over the past 10 to 20 years cloud and application development as you see, has changed a lot. You've been involved in so many product launches over the years. Cloud and machine learning are the biggest waves happening to your point to what you're doing now. Software is under the covers it's powering it all infrastructure is code. Open source has been a big part of it and it continues to grow and change. Deepak Singh from AWS talks about the business model transformation of how like Netflix donates to the open source. Then a company starts around it and creates more growth. Machine learnings and all the open source conversations around automation as developers and builders, like software as cloud and machine learning become the key pistons in the engine. This is a big wave, what's your view on this? How how has cloud scale and data impacting the software market? >> I mean, that's a broad question. So I'm going to break it down to kind of give some of the back data. So now how we are thinking about it first, I'd say when it comes to the open source, I'll start off by saying first the longevity and by ability of open sources are very important to our customers and that is why we have been a significant contributor and supporter of these communities. I mean, there are several efforts in open source, even internally by actually open sourcing some of our key Amazon technologies like Firecracker or BottleRocket or our CDK to help advance the industry. For example, CDK itself provides some really powerful way to build and configure cloud services as well. And we also contribute to a lot of different open source projects that are existing ones, open telemetries and Linux, Java, Redis and Kubernetes, Grafana and Kafka and Robotics Operating System and Hadoop, Leucine and so forth. So, I think, I can go on and on, but even now I'd say the database and observability space say machine learning we have always started with embracing open source in a big material way. If you see, even in deep learning framework, we championed MX Linux and some of the core components and we open sourced our auto ML technology auto Glue on, and also be open sourced and collaborated with partners like Facebook Meta on Fighter showing some major components and there, and then we are open search Edge Compiler. So, I would say the number one thing is, I mean, we are actually are very, very excited to partner with broader community on problems that really mattered to the customers and actually ensure that they are able to get amazing benefit of this. >> And I see machine learning is a huge thing. If you look at how cloud group and when you had DynamoDB paper, when you wrote it, that that was the beginning of, I call the cloud surge. It was the beginning of not just being a resource versus building a data center, certainly a great alternative. Every startup did it. That's history phase one inning and a half, first half inning. Then it became a large scale. Machine learning feels like the same way now. You feel like you're seeing a lot of people using it. A lot of people are playing around with it. It's evolving. It's been around as a science, but combined with cloud scale, this is a big thing. What should people who are in the enterprise think about how should they think about machine learning? How has some of your top customers thought about machine learning as they refactor their applications? What are some of the things that you can share from your experience and journey here? >> I mean, one of the key things I'd say just to set some context on scale and numbers. More than one and a half million customers use our database analytics or ML services end-to-end. Part of which machine learning services and capabilities are easily used by more than a hundred thousand customers at a really good scale. However, I still think in Amazon, we tend to use the phrase, "It's day one in the age of internet," even though it's an, or the phrase, "Now, but it's a golden one," but I would say in the world of machine learning, yes it's day one but I also think we just woke up and we haven't even had a cup of coffee yet. That's really that early, so. And, but when you it's interesting, you've compared it to where cloud was like 10, 12 years ago. That's early days when I used to talk to engineering leaders who are running their own data center and then we talked about cloud and various disruptive technologies. I still used to get a sense about like why cloud and basic and whatnot at that time, Whereas now with machine learning though almost every CIO, CEO, all of them never asked me why machine learning. Instead, the number one question, I get is, how do I get started with it? What are the best use cases? which is great, and this is where I always tell them one of the learnings that we actually learned in Amazon. So again, a few years ago, probably seven or eight years ago, and Amazon itself realized as a company, the impact of what machine learning could do in terms of changing how we actually run our business and what it means to provide better customer experience optimize our supply chain and so far we realized that the we need to help our builders learn machine learning and the help even our business leaders understand the power of machine learning. So we did two things. One, we actually, from a bottom-up level, we built what I call as machine learning university, which is run in my team. It's literally stocked with professors and teachers who offer curriculum to builders so that they get educated on machine learning. And now from a top-down level we also, in our yearly planning process, we call it the operational planning process where we write Amazon style narratives six pages and then answer FAQ's. We asked everyone to answer one question around, like how do you plan to leverage machine learning in your business? And typically when someone says, I really don't play into our, it does not apply. It's usually it doesn't go well. So we kind of politely encourage them to do better and come back with a better answer. This kind of dynamic on top-down and bottom-up, changed the conversation and we started seeing more and more measurable growth. And these are some of the things you're starting to see more and more among our customers too. They see the business benefit, but this is where to address the talent gap. We also made machine learning university curriculum actually now open source and freely available. And we launched SageMaker Studio Lab, which is a no cost, no set up SageMaker notebook service for educating learner profiles and all the students as well. And we are excited to also announce AIMLE scholarship for underrepresented students as well. So, so much more we can do well. >> Well, congratulations on the DynamoDB paper. That's the 10 year anniversary, which is a revolutionary product, changed the game that did change the world and that a huge impact. And now as machine learning goes to the next level, the next intern out there is at school with machine learning. They're going to be writing that next paper, your advice to them real quick. >> My biggest advice is, always, I encourage all the builders to always dream big, and don't be hesitant to speak your mind as long as you have the right conviction saying you're addressing a real customer problem. So when you feel like you have an amazing solution to address a customer problem, take the time to articulate your thoughts better, and then feel free to speak up and communicate to the folks you're working with. And I'm sure any company that nurtures good talent and knows how to hire and develop the best they will be willing to listen and then you will be able to have an amazing impact in the industry. >> Swami, great to know you're CUBE alumni love our conversations from intern on the paper of DynamoDB to the technical leader at AWS and database analyst machine learning, congratulations on all your success and continue innovating on behalf of the customers and the industry. Thanks for spending the time here on theCUBE and our program, appreciate it. >> Thanks again, John. Really appreciate it. >> Okay, now let's kick off our program. That ends the keynote track here on the AWS startup showcase. Season two, episode one, enjoy the program and don't miss the closing keynote with Deepak Singh. He goes into great detail on the changing business models, all the exciting open source innovation. (gentle bright music)