(bright upbeat music) >> Hello everyone and welcome back to Las Vegas, Nevada. We're live from the show floor here at AWS re:Invent on theCUBE. My name is Savannah Peterson joined by my VIP co-host John Furrier. John, what's your hot take? >> We get wall-to-wall coverage day three of theCUBE (laughing loudly) shows popping, another day tomorrow. >> How many interviews have we done so far? >> I think we're over a hundred I think, (laughing loudly) we might be pushing a hundred. >> We've had a really fantastic line up of guests on theCUBE so far. We are in the meat of the sandwich right now. We've got a full line up of programming all day long and tomorrow. We are lucky to be joined by two fantastic gentlemen on our next segment. Brad, who's a familiar face. We just got to see you in that last one. Thank you for being here, you still doing good? >> Still good. >> Okay, great, glad nothing's changed in the last 14 minutes. >> 'no, we're good. >> Would've been tragic. And welcome, Mark, the CEO of Cloud Saver. Mark, how you doing this morning? >> I'm doing great, thanks so much. >> Savannah: How's the show going for ya'? >> It's going amazing. The turnout's just fantastic. It's record turnouts here. It's been lots of activity, it's great to be part of. >> So I suspect most people know about AMD, but Mark, I'm going to let you give us just a little intro to Cloud Saver so the audience is prepped... >> 'yeah, absolutely. So at Cloud Saver we help companies manage their Cloud spin. And the way that we do it is a little bit unique. Most people try and solve Cloud cost management just through a software only solution but we have a different perspective. There's so many complexities and nuances to managing your Cloud spin, that we don't think that software's enough. So our solution is a full managed service so we can plan our own proprietary technology with a full service delivery team, so that we come in and provide project management, Cloud engineering, FinOps analysts, and we come in and basically do all the cost authorization for the company. And so it's been a fantastic solution for us and something that's really resonated well within our customer base. >> I love your slogan. "Clean up the Cloud with the Cloud Saver Tag Manager'. >> Mark: That's right. >> So yesterday in the Keynote, Adams Lesky said, "Hey if you want to tighten your belt, come to the Cloud." So, big focus right now on right sizing. >> That's right. >> I won't say repatriation 'cause that's not kind of of happening, but like people are looking at it like they're not going to, it's not the glory days where you leave all your lights on in your house and you go to bed, you don't worry about the electricity bill. Now people are like, "Okay, what am I doing? Why am I doing it?" A lot more policy, a lot more focus. What are you guys seeing as the low hanging fruit, best practices, the use cases that people are implementing right now? >> Yeah, if you think about where things are at now from a Cloud cost management perspective, there's a lot of frustration in the marketplace because everybody sees their cost continually going up. And what typically happens is they'll say, okay we need to figure out what's going on with this cost and figure out where we can make some changes. And so they go out and get a cost visibility tool and then they're a little bit disappointed because all that visibility tool is completely dependent upon properly tagging your resources. So what a lot of people don't understand is that a lot of their pain that they're experiencing, the root cause is actually they've got a data problem which is why we built a entire solution to help companies clean up their Cloud, clean up their tags. It really is a foundational piece to help them understand how to manage their costs. >> I just.. >> Data is back in the data problem again >> Shocking, right? Not a theme we've heard on the show. Not a theme we've heard on the show at all. I mean, I think with tags it matters more than people realize and it can get very messy very quick. I know that this partnership is relatively new, six months, you told us before this show. Brad what does this partnership mean for AMD customers? >> Yeah, it's critical, they have a fantastic approach to this kind of a full service approach to cost optimization, compete optimization. AMD we're very, extremely focused on providing most cost efficient, most performance, and most energy efficient products on the market. And as Adam talked about, come to the Cloud to tighten your belt. I'll follow up. When you come to the Cloud, your choice matters, right? Your choice matters on what you use and what the downstream impact and cost is. And it also matters in sustainability and other other factors with our products. >> You know, yesterday Zeyess Karvellos one of our analysts on theCUBE, he used his own independent shop. We were talking about this focus and he actually made a comment I want to get your both reaction to, he said "Spend more in the Cloud, save more." Meaning there are ways to spend more on the Cloud and save more at the same time. >> Right. >> It's not just cut and eliminate, it's right side. I don't know what the right word is. Can you guys.. >> No, I think what you're saying is, is that there are areas where you need to spend more so you can be more efficient and get value that way, but there's also plenty of areas where you're spending money unnecessarily. Either you have resources that nobody's using. Let's find those and pull them to the front and center and turn them off, right? Or if you've over provisioned certain areas let's pull those back. So I think having the right balance of where you spend your money to get the value makes total sense. >> John: Yeah >> I like that holistic approach too. I like that you're not just looking at one thing. I mean, people, you're kind of, I'm thinking of you as like the McKinsey or like the dream team that just comes in tidies everything up. Makes sure that people are being, getting that total cost optimization. It's exciting. So who, I imagine, I mean obviously the entire organization benefits, but who benefits most? What types of roles? Who's using you? >> Right, so, Cloud cost management really benefits the entire organization, especially when times get tougher and everybody's looking to tighten their belt with cost. You know.. >> Wait every time when you say that, I'm like conscious, (laughing loudly) of my abdomen. we're in Vegas, there's great food, (laughing loudly) and we got, (laughing loudly) thanks a lot Adam, thanks a lot. (all laughing loudly). >> No, but it really does benefit everybody across the organization and it also helps people to keep cost management kind of front and center, right? No company allows people to have a complete blank check to go out there for infrastructure and as a way to make sure you've got proper checks and balances in place so that you're responsibly managing your IT organization. >> Yeah, and going back to the spend comment, spend more, you know, to save money. You know, look, we're going to be facing a very difficult situation in 23. I think there's going to be a lot of headwinds for a lot of companies. And the way to look at this is it's if you can provide yourself additional operating capital to work, there's other aspects to working with the business. Time to market, right? You're talking about addressing your top line. There's other ways to use applications and the services from AWS to help enable your business to grow even faster in '23 right? So '23 is a time to build, not necessarily a time to hang back and hope everything turns out okay. >> Yeah we can't go over it, (chuckles) We can't go under it, we got to go through it... >> Got to make it work >> Got to make our way through it. I think it's, yeah, it's so important. So as the partnership grows, what's next for you two companies? Brad will go to you first. >> Yeah sure you know, we're very excited to partner with Cloud Saver. It's fantastic company, have great team. And for us it's AMB is entering into the partnership space of this now. So now we've got a great position with AWS. We love their products, and now we're going to try to enable as many partners as we can in some specific areas. And for us cost optimization is priority number one. So you'll see a lot of programs that come out in '23 around this area. We're going to dedicate a lot of sales resources to help as many enterprise customers as we can, working with our close partners like Cloud Saver. >> Next ecosystem developing for you guys. >> Absolutely, absolutely, and you know AMD's they're still fairly new in the Cloud space, right? And this is a journey that takes a long time, and this is the next leg in our growth in the environment. >> Well, certainly the trend is more horsepower, more under the hood, more capabilities, customized >> Oh that's coming. >> Workloads. You're starting to see the specialized instances, you can see what's happening and soon it's going to be like a, it's own like computer in the Cloud >> Right. >> More horsepower. >> You think about this, I mean more than 400 instance types, more than 400 types of services out there in that range. And you think about all the potential interactions and applications. It's incredibly complex, right? >> Yeah that decision matrix just went like this in my brain when you said that. That is wild. And everyone wants to do more, faster, easier but also with the comfort of that cost savings, in terms of your customers priorities, I mean, you're talking to a lot of different people across a lot of different industries both of you are, I'm sure is cost optimization the number one priority as we're going into 2023? >> Yeah. Matter of fact, I have a chance to obviously speak with AWS leadership on a regular basis. Every single, they keep telling me for the past two months, every single CEO they're speaking to right now, it's the very first things out of the mouth. It's top of mind for every major corporation right now. And I think the message is also the same. It's like, great, let's help you do that but at the same time, is it not a bad time to re:Invest with some of those additional savings, right? And I think that's where the value of else comes into play. >> Yeah, and I think what you guys are demonstrating to also is another tell sign of this what I call NextGen Cloud evolution, which is as the end-to-end messaging and positioning expands and as you see more solutions. You know, let's face it, it's going to be more complex. So the complexity will be abstracted away by new opportunities like what you guys are doing, what you're enabling. So you're starting to see kind of platforms emerging across the board as well as more ISVs. So ISVs, people building software, starting to see now more symbiotic relationship, for developers and entrepreneurship. >> Yeah, so the complexity of the Cloud is certainly something that's not going to get any less as time goes on, right? And I think as companies realize that, they see it, they acknowledge it and I think they're going to lean on partners to help them navigate those waters. So that's where I think the combination of AMD and Cloud Saver, we can really partner very well because I think we're both very passionate about creating customer value, and I think there's a tremendous number of ways that we can collaborate together to bring that to the customers. >> And you know what's interesting too you guys are both hitting on this is that this next partner channel whatever you want to call it is very joint engineering and development. It's not just relationships and selling, there's integration and the new products that can come out is a phenomenal, we're going to watch. I think I predict that the ecosystem's going to explode big time in terms of value, just new things, joint engineering, API... >> 'it's so collaborative too. >> Yeah, it's going to be... >> 'well, the innovation in the marketplace right now is absolutely on fire. I mean, it's so exciting to see all the new technologies have on board. And to be able to see that kind of permeate throughout the marketplace is something that's just really fun and excited to be part of. >> Oh, when you think about the doom and gloom that we hear every day and you look around right now, everybody's building, right? And... >> this and smiling. >> And smiling, right? >> Paul: Today, (laughing loudly) >> Until Thursday when the legs start to get out. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, what recession? I mean, it's so crowded here. And again, this is the point that the Amazon is now a big player in this economy in 2008 that last recession, they weren't a factor. Now you got be tightening new solutions. I think you're going to see, I think more agility. I think Amazon and the ecosystem might propel us out the recession faster if you get the tailwind that might be a big thing we're watching. >> I agree. Cloud computing is inevitable. >> Yeah. >> It's inevitable. >> Yeah, it's no longer a conversation, it's a commitment. And I think we all certainly agree with that. So, Brad is versed in this challenge because we did it in our last segment. But Mark, we have a new tradition I should say, at re:Invent here, where we're looking for your 32nd Instagram reel, your sizzle your thought leadership hot take on the most important story or theme of the show this year. >> For the show as a whole. Wow, well, I think innovation is absolutely front and center today. I think, of the new technologies that we're seeing out there are absolutely phenomenal. I think they're taking the whole Cloud computing to the next level, and I think it's going to have a dramatic impact on how people develop applications and run workloads in the Cloud. >> Well done. What do you think John? I think you nailed it. >> Nailed it. Yeah, want to go for round two? >> Sure. >> Sure, I'll give a shot, (laughing loudly) So... >> 'get it, Brad. >> So, when in public Cloud choice matters? >> It matters. Think about the instance types you use think about the configurations you use and think about the applications you're layering in there and why they're there, right? Optimize those environments. Take advantage of all the tools you have. >> Yeah, you're going to start tuning your Cloud now. I mean, as it gets bigger and better, stronger you're going to start to see just fine tuning more craft, I guess. >> Mark: Yeah. >> In there, great stuff. >> Paul, and in these interesting times, I'm not committed to calling it a recession yet. I still have a chart of hope. I think that the services and the value that you provide to your customers are going to be one of those painkillers that will survive through this. I mean we're seeing a little bit of the trimming of the fat, of extraneous spending in the tech sector as a whole. But I can't imagine folks not wanting to leverage AMD and Cloud Saver, it's exciting, yeah. >> Saving money never goes out of style right? (laughing loudly) >> Saving money is always sexy. I love that, yeah, (laughing loudly) It's actually really... That's a great line goes on. Mark, thank you so much for being here and sharing your story with us. We really appreciate it, Brad. It's been a fabulous thing. You're just going to stay here all day, right? >> I'll just hang out, yeah. >> All right. >> I'm yours. >> I love that. And thank you all for tuning to us live here from the show floor at AWS re:Invent in fabulous sunny Las Vegas Nevada with John Furrier, I'm Savannah Peterson you're watching theCUBE, the leader in high tech coverage. (bright upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, everyone and welcome back to fabulous Las Vegas, Nevada, where we are here on the show floor at AWS re:Invent. We are theCUBE. I am Savannah Peterson, joined with John Furrier. John, afternoon, day two, we are in full swing. >> Yes. >> What's got you most excited? >> Just got lunch, got the food kicking in. No, we don't get coffee. (Savannah laughing) >> Way to bring the hype there, John. >> No, there's so many people here just in Amazon. We're back to 2019 levels of crowd. The interest levels are high. Next gen, cloud security, big part of the keynote. This next segment, I am super excited about. CUBE Alumni, going back to 2013, 10 years ago he was on theCUBE. Now, 10 years later we're at re:Invent, looking forward to this guest and it's about security, great topic. >> I don't want to delay us anymore, please welcome Mark. Mark, thank you so much for being here with us. Massive day for you and the team. I know you oversee three different units at Amazon, Inspector, Detective, and the most recently announced, Security Lake. Tell us about Amazon Security Lake. >> Well, thanks Savannah. Thanks John for having me. Well, Security Lake has been in the works for a little bit of time and it got announced today at the keynote as you heard from Adam. We're super excited because there's a couple components that are really unique and valuable to our customers within Security Lake. First and foremost, the foundation of Security Lake is an open source project we call OCFS, Open Cybersecurity Framework Schema. And what that allows is us to work with the vendor community at large in the security space and develop a language where we can all communicate around security data. And that's the language that we put into Security Data Lake. We have 60 vendors participating in developing that language and partnering within Security Lake. But it's a communal lake where customers can bring all of their security data in one place, whether it's generated in AWS, they're on-prem, or SaaS offerings or other clouds, all in one location in a language that allows analytics to take advantage of that analytics and give better outcomes for our customers. >> So Adams Selipsky big keynote, he spent all the bulk of his time on data and security. Obviously they go well together, we've talked about this in the past on theCUBE. Data is part of security, but this security's a little bit different in the sense that the global footprint of AWS makes it uniquely positioned to manage some security threats, EKS protection, a very interesting announcement, runtime layer, but looking inside and outside the containers, probably gives extra telemetry on some of those supply chains vulnerabilities. This is actually a very nuanced point. You got Guard Duty kind of taking its role. What does it mean for customers 'cause there's a lot of things in this announcement that he didn't have time to go into detail. Unpack all the specifics around what the security announcement means for customers. >> Yeah, so we announced four items in Adam's keynote today within my team. So I'll start with Guard Duty for EKS runtime. It's complimenting our existing capabilities for EKS support. So today Inspector does vulnerability assessment on EKS or container images in general. Guard Duty does detections of EKS workloads based on log data. Detective does investigation and analysis based on that log data as well. With the announcement today, we go inside the container workloads. We have more telemetry, more fine grain telemetry and ultimately we can provide better detections for our customers to analyze risks within their container workload. So we're super excited about that one. Additionally, we announced Inspector for Lambda. So Inspector, we released last year at re:Invent and we focused mostly on EKS container workloads and EC2 workloads. Single click automatically assess your environment, start generating assessments around vulnerabilities. We've added Lambda to that capability for our customers. The third announcement we made was Macy sampling. So Macy has been around for a while in delivering a lot of value for customers providing information around their sensitive data within S3 buckets. What we found is many customers want to go and characterize all of the data in their buckets, but some just want to know is there any sensitive data in my bucket? And the sampling feature allows the customer to find out their sensitive data in the bucket, but we don't have to go through and do all of the analysis to tell you exactly what's in there. >> Unstructured and structured data. Any data? >> Correct, yeah. >> And the fourth? >> The fourth, Security Data Lake? (John and Savannah laughing) Yes. >> Okay, ocean theme. data lake. >> Very complimentary to all of our services, but the unique value in the data lake is that we put the information in the customer's control. It's in their S3 bucket, they get to decide who gets access to it. We've heard from customers over the years that really have two options around gathering large scale data for security analysis. One is we roll our own and we're security engineers, we're not data engineers. It's really hard for them to build these distributed systems at scale. The second one is we can pick a vendor or a partner, but we're locked in and it's in their schemer and their format and we're there for a long period of time. With Security Data Lake, they get the best of both worlds. We run the infrastructure at scale for them, put the data in their control and they get to decide what use case, what partner, what tool gives them the most value on top of their data. >> Is that always a good thing to give the customers too much control? 'Cause you know the old expression, you give 'em a knife they play with and they they can cut themselves, I mean. But no, seriously, 'cause what's the provisions around that? Because control was big part of the governance, how do you manage the security? How does the customer worry about, if I have too much control, someone makes a mistake? >> Well, what we finding out today is that many customers have realized that some of their data has been replicated seven times, 10 times, not necessarily maliciously, but because they have multiple vendors that utilize that data to give them different use cases and outcomes. It becomes costly and unwieldy to figure out where all that data is. So by centralizing it, the control is really around who has access to the data. Now, ultimately customers want to make those decisions and we've made it simple to aggregate this data in a single place. They can develop a home region if they want, where all the data flows into one region, they can distribute it globally. >> They're in charge. >> They're in charge. But the controls are mostly in the hands of the data governance person in the company, not the security analyst. >> So I'm really curious, you mentioned there's 60 AWS partner companies that have collaborated on the Security lake. Can you tell us a little bit about the process? How long does it take? Are people self-selecting to contribute to these projects? Are you cherry picking? What does that look like? >> It's a great question. There's three levels of collaboration. One is around the open source project that we announced at Black Hat early in this year called OCSF. And that collaboration is we've asked the vendor community to work with us to build a schema that is universally acceptable to security practitioners, not vendor specific and we've asked. >> Savannah: I'm sorry to interrupt you, but is this a first of its kind? >> There's multiple schemes out there developed by multiple parties. They've been around for multiple years, but they've been built by a single vendor. >> Yeah, that's what I'm drill in on a little bit. It sounds like the first we had this level of collaboration. >> There's been collaborations around them, but in a handful of companies. We've really gone to a broad set of collaborators to really get it right. And they're focused around areas of expertise that they have knowledge in. So the EDR vendors, they're focused around the scheme around EDR. The firewall vendors are focused around that area. Certainly the cloud vendors are in their scope. So that's level one of collaboration and that gets us the level playing field and the language in which we'll communicate. >> Savannah: Which is so important. >> Super foundational. Then the second area is around producers and subscribers. So many companies generate valuable security data from the tools that they run. And we call those producers the publishers and they publish the data into Security Lake within that OCSF format. Some of them are in the form of findings, many of them in the form of raw telemetry. Then the second one is in the subscriber side and those are usually analytic vendors, SIM vendors, XDR vendors that take advantage of the logs in one place and generate analytic driven outcomes on top of that, use cases, if you will, that highlight security risks or issues for customers. >> Savannah: Yeah, cool. >> What's the big customer focus when you start looking at Security Lakes? How do you see that planning out? You said there's a collaboration, love the open source vibe on that piece, what data goes in there? What's sharing? 'Cause a big part of the keynote I heard today was, I heard clean rooms, I've cut my antenna up. I'd love to hear that. That means there's an implied sharing aspect. The security industry's been sharing data for a while. What kind of data's in that lake? Give us an example, take us through. >> Well, this a number of sources within AWS, as customers run their workloads in AWS. We've identified somewhere around 25 sources that will be natively single click into Amazon Security Lake. We were announcing nine of them. They're traditional network logs, BBC flow, cloud trail logs, firewall logs, findings that are generated across AWS, EKS audit logs, RDS data logs. So anything that customers run workloads on will be available in data lake. But that's not limited to AWS. Customers run their environments hybridly, they have SaaS applications, they use other clouds in some instances. So it's open to bring all that data in. Customers can vector it all into this one single location if they decide, we make it pretty simple for them to do that. Again, in the same format where outcomes can be generated quickly and easily. >> Can you use the data lake off on premise or it has to be in an S3 in Amazon Cloud? >> Today it's in S3 in Amazon. If we hear customers looking to do something different, as you guys know, we tend to focus on our customers and what they want us to do, but they've been pretty happy about what we've decided to do in this first iteration. >> So we got a story about Silicon Angle. Obviously the ingestion is a big part of it. The reporters are jumping in, but the 53rd party sources is a pretty big number. Is that coming from the OCSF or is that just in general? Who's involved? >> Yeah, OCSF is the big part of that and we have a list of probably 50 more that want to join in part of this. >> The other big names are there, Cisco, CrowdStrike, Peloton Networks, all the big dogs are in there. >> All big partners of AWS, anyway, so it was an easy conversation and in most cases when we started having the conversation, they were like, "Wow, this has really been needed for a long time." And given our breadth of partners and where we sit from our customers perspective in the center of their cloud journey that they've looked at us and said, "You guys, we applaud you for driving this." >> So Mark, take us through the conversations you're having with the customers at re:Inforce. We saw a lot of meetings happening. It was great to be back face to face. You guys have been doing a lot of customer conversation, security Data Lake came out of that. What was the driving force behind it? What were some of the key concerns? What were the challenges and what's now the opportunity that's different? >> We heard from our customers in general. One, it's too hard for us to get all the data we need in a single place, whether through AWS, the industry in general, it's just too hard. We don't have those resources to data wrangle that data. We don't know how to pick schema. There's multiple ones out there. Tell us how we would do that. So these three challenges came out front and center for every customer. And mostly what they said is our resources are limited and we want to focus those resources on security outcomes and we have security engines. We don't want to focus them on data wrangling and large scale distributed systems. Can you help us solve that problem? And it came out loud and clear from almost every customer conversation we had. And that's where we took the challenge. We said, "Okay, let's build this data layer." And then on top of that we have services like Detective and Guard Duty, we'll take advantage of it as well. But we also have a myriad of ISV third parties that will also sit on top of that data and render out. >> What's interesting, I want to get your reaction. I know we don't have much time left, but I want to get your thoughts. When I see Security Data Lake, which is awesome by the way, love the focus, love how you guys put that together. It makes me realize the big thing in re:Invent this year is this idea of specialized solutions. You got instances for this and that, use cases that require certain kind of performance. You got the data pillars that Adam laid out. Are we going to start seeing more specialized data lakes? I mean, we have a video data lake. Is there going to be a FinTech data lake? Is there going to be, I mean, you got the Great Lakes kind of going on here, what is going on with these lakes? I mean, is that a trend that Amazon sees or customers are aligning to? >> Yeah, we have a couple lakes already. We have a healthcare lake and a financial lake and now we have a security lake. Foundationally we have Lake Formation, which is the tool that anyone can build a lake. And most of our lakes run on top of Lake Foundation, but specialize. And the specialization is in the data aggregation, normalization, enridgement, that is unique for those use cases. And I think you'll see more and more. >> John: So that's a feature, not a bug. >> It's a feature, it's a big feature. The customers have ask for it. >> So they want roll their own specialized, purpose-built data thing, lake? They can do it. >> And customer don't want to combine healthcare information with security information. They have different use cases and segmentation of the information that they care about. So I think you'll see more. Now, I also think that you'll see where there are adjacencies that those lakes will expand into other use cases in some cases too. >> And that's where the right tools comes in, as he was talking about this ETL zero, ETL feature. >> It be like an 80, 20 rule. So if 80% of the data is shared for different use cases, you can see how those lakes would expand to fulfill multiple use cases. >> All right, you think he's ready for the challenge? Look, we were on the same page. >> Okay, we have a new challenge, go ahead. >> So think of it as an Instagram Reel, sort of your hot take, your thought leadership moment, the clip we're going to come back to and reference your brilliance 10 years down the road. I mean, you've been a CUBE veteran, now CUBE alumni for almost 10 years, in just a few weeks it'll be that. What do you think is, and I suspect, I think I might know your answer to this, so feel free to be robust in this. But what do you think is the biggest story, key takeaway from the show this year? >> We're democratizing security data within Security Data Lake for sure. >> Well said, you are our shortest answer so far on theCUBE and I absolutely love and respect that. Mark, it has been a pleasure chatting with you and congratulations, again, on the huge announcement. This is such an exciting day for you all. >> Thank you Savannah, thank you John, pleasure to be here. >> John: Thank you, great to have you. >> We look forward to 10 more years of having you. >> Well, maybe we don't have to wait 10 years. (laughs) >> Well, more years, in another time. >> I have a feeling it'll be a lot of security content this year. >> Yeah, pretty hot theme >> Very hot theme. >> Pretty odd theme for us. >> Of course, re:Inforce will be there this year again, coming up 2023. >> All the res. >> Yep, all the res. >> Love that. >> We look forward to see you there. >> All right, thanks, Mark. >> Speaking of res, you're the reason we are here. Thank you all for tuning in to today's live coverage from AWS re:Invent. We are in Las Vegas, Nevada with John Furrier. My name is Savannah Peterson. We are theCUBE and we are the leading source for high tech coverage. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, welcome everyone to "theCUBE" presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase, this is Season Two, Episode Four of the ongoing series covering exciting startups from the AWS ecosystem. Here to talk about Cyber Security. I'm your host John Furrier here joined by two great "CUBE" alumnus, Liz Rice who's the chief open source officer at Isovalent, and Mark Nunnikhoven who's the distinguished cloud strategist at Lacework. Folks, thanks for joining me today. >> Hi. Pleasure. >> You're in the U.K. Mark, welcome back to the U.S, I know you were overseas as well. Thanks for joining in this panel to talk about set the table for the Cybersecurity Showcase. You guys are experts out in the field. Liz we've had many conversations with the rise of open source, and all the innovations coming from out in the open source community. Mark, we've been going and covering the events, looking at all the announcements we're kind of on this next generation security conversation. It's kind of a do over in progress, happening every time we talk security in the cloud, is what people are are talking about. Amazon Web Services had reinforced, which was more of a positive vibe of, Hey, we're all on it together. Let's participate, share information. And they talk about incidents, not breaches. And then, you got Black Hat just happened, and they're like, everyone's getting hacked. It's really interesting as we report that. So, this is a new market that we're in. People are starting to think differently, but still have to solve the same problems. How do you guys see the security in the cloud era unfolding? >> Well, I guess it's always going to be an arms race. Isn't it? Everything that we do to defend cloud workloads, it becomes a new target for the bad guys, so this is never going to end. We're never going to reach a point where everything is completely safe. But I think there's been a lot of really interesting innovations in the last year or two. There's been a ton of work looking into the security of the supply chain. There's been a ton of new tooling that takes advantage of technology that I'm really involved with and very excited about called eBPF. There's been a continuation of this new generation of tooling that can help us observe when security issues are happening, and also prevent malicious activities. >> And it's on to of open source activity. Mark, scale is a big factor now, it's becoming a competitive advantage on one hand. APIs have made the cloud great. Now, you've got APIs being hacked. So, all the goodness of cloud has been great, but now we've got next level scale, it's hard to keep up with everything. And so, you start to see new ways of doing things. What's your take? >> Yeah, it is. And everything that's old is new again. And so, as you start to see data and business workloads move into new areas, you're going to see a cyber crime and security activity move with them. And I love, Liz calling out eBPF and open source efforts because what we've really seen to contrast that sort of positive and negative attitude, is that as more people come to the security table, as more developers, as more executives are aware, and the accessibility of these great open source tools, we're seeing that shift in approach of like, Hey, we know we need to find a balance, so let's figure out where we can have a nice security outcome and still meet our business needs, as opposed to the more, let's say to be polite, traditional security view that you see at some other events where it's like, it's this way or no way. And so, I love to see that positivity and that collaboration happening. >> You know, Liz, this brings up a good point. We were talking at our Super Cloud Event we had here when we were discussing the future of how cloud's emerging. One of the conversations that Adrian Cockcroft brought up, who's now retired from AWS, former with Netflix. Adrian being open source fan as well. He was pointing out that every CIO or CISO will buy an abstraction layer. They love the dream. And vendors sell the dream, so to speak. But the reality it's not a lot of uptake because it's complex, And there's a lot of non-standard things per vendor. Now, we're in an era where people are looking for some standardization, some clean, safe ways to deploy. So, what's the message to CSOs, and CIOs, and CXOs out there around eBPF, things like that, that are emerging? Because it's almost top down, was the old way, now as bottoms up with open source, you're seeing the shift. I mean, it's complete flipping the script of how companies are buying? >> Yeah. I mean, we've seen with the whole cloud native movement, how people are rather than having like ETF standards, we have more of a defacto collaborative, kind of standardization process going on. So, that things like Kubernetes become the defacto standard that we're all using. And then, that's helping enterprises be able to run their workloads in different clouds, potentially in their own data centers as well. We see things like EKS anywhere, which is allowing people to run their workloads in their data center in exactly the same way as they're running it in AWS. That sort of leveling of the playing field, if you like, can help enterprises apply the same tooling, and that's going to always help with security if you can have a consistent approach wherever you are running your workload. >> Well, Liz's take a minute to explain eBPF. The Berkeley packet filtering technology, people know from Trace Dumps and whatnot. It's kind of been around for a while, but what is it specifically? Can you take a minute to explain eBPF, and what does that mean for the customer? >> Yeah. So, you mentioned the packet filtering acronym. And honestly, these days, I tell people to just forget that, because it means so much more for. What eBPF allows you to do now, is to run custom programs inside the kernel. So, we can use that to change the way that the kernel behaves. And because the kernel has visibility over every process that's running across a machine, a virtual machine or a bare metal machine, having security tooling and observability tooling that's written using eBPF and sitting inside the kernel. It has this great perspective and ability to observe and secure what's happening across that entire machine. This is like a step change in the capabilities really of security tooling. And it means we don't have to rely on things like kernel modules, which traditionally people have been quite worried about with good reason. eBPF is- >> From a vulnerability standpoint, you mean, right? From a reliability. >> From a vulnerability standpoint, but even just from the point of view that kernel modules, if they have bugs in them, a bug in the kernel will bring the machine to a halt. And one of the things that's different with eBPF, is eBPF programs go through a verification process that ensures that they're safe to run that, but happens dynamically and ensures that the program cannot crash, will definitely run to completion. All the memory access is safe. It gives us this very sort of reassuring platform to use for building these kernel-based tools. >> And what's the bottom line for the customer and the benefit to the organization? >> I think the bottom line is this new generation of really powerful tools that are very high performance. That have this perspective across the whole set of workloads on a machine. That don't need to rely on things like a CCAR model, which can add to a lot of complexity that was perfectly rational choice for a lot of security tools and observability tools. But if you can use an abstraction that lives in the kernel, things are much more efficient and much easier to deploy. So, I think that's really what that enterprise is gaining, simpler to deploy, easier to manage, lower overhead set of tools. >> That's the dream they want. That's what they want. Mark, this is whether the trade offs that comes up. We were talking about the supercloud, and all kinds. Even at AWS, you're going to have supercloud, but you got super hackers as well. As innovation happens on one side, the hackers are innovating on the other. And you start to see a lot of advances in the lower level, AWS with their Silicon and strategies are continuing to happen and be stronger, faster, cheaper, better down the lower levels at the network lay. All these things are innovating, but this is where the hackers are going too, right? So, it's a double edge sword? >> Yeah, and it always will be. And that's the challenge of technology, is sort of the advancement for one, is an advancement for all. But I think, while Liz hit the technical aspects of the eBPF spot on, what I'm seeing with enterprises, and in general with the market movement, is all of those technical advantages are increasing the confidence in some of this security tooling. So, the long sort of anecdote or warning in security has always been things like intrusion prevention systems where they will look at network traffic and drop things they think bad. Well, for decades, people have always deployed them in detect-only mode. And that's always a horrible conversation to have with the board saying, "Well, I had this tool in place that could have stopped the attack, but I wasn't really confident that it was stable enough to turn on. So, it just warned me that it had happened after the fact." And with the stability and the performance that we're seeing out of things based on technologies like eBPF, we're seeing that confidence increase. So, people are not only deploying this new level of tooling, but they're confident that it's actually providing the security it promised. And that's giving, not necessarily a leg up, but at least that level of parody with that push forward that we're seeing, similar on the attack side. Because attackers are always advancing as well. And I think that confidence and that reliability on the tooling, can't be underestimated because that's really what's pushing things forward for security outcomes. >> Well, one of the things I want get your both perspective on real quick. And you kind of segue into this next set of conversations, is with DevOps success, Dev and Ops, it's kind of done, right? We're all happy. We're seeing DevOps being so now DevSecOps. So, CSOs were like kind of old school. Buy a bunch of tools, we have a vendor. And with cloud native, Liz, you mentioned this earlier, accelerating the developers are even driving the standards more and more. So, shifting left is a security paradigm. So, tooling, Mark, you're on top of this too, it's tooling versus how do I organize my team? What are the processes? How do I keep the CICD pipeline going, higher velocity? How can I keep my app developers programming faster? And as Adrian Cockcroft said, they don't really care about locking, they want to go faster. It's the ops teams that have to deal with everything. So, and now security teams have to deal with the speed and velocity. So, you're seeing a new kind of step function, ratchet game where ops and security teams who are living DevOps, are still having to serve the devs, and the devs need more help here. So, how do you guys see that dynamic in security? Because this is clearly the shift left's, cloud native trend impacting the companies. 'Cause now it's not just shifting left for developers, it has a ripple effect into the organization and the security posture. >> We see a lot of organizations who now have what they would call a platform team. Which is something similar to maybe what would've been an ops team and a security team, where really their role is to provide that platform that developers can use. So, they can concentrate on the business function that they don't have to really think about the underlying infrastructure. Ideally, they're using whatever common definition for their applications. And then, they just roll it out to a cloud somewhere, and they don't have to think about where that's operating. And then, that platform team may have remit that covers, not just the compute, but also the networking, the common set of tooling that allows people to debug their applications, as well as securing them. >> Mark, this is a big discussion because one, I love the team, process collaboration. But where's the team? We've got a skills gap going on too, right? So, in all this, there's a lot of action happening. What's your take on this dynamic of tooling versus process collaboration for security success? >> Yeah, it's tough. And I think what we're starting to see, and you called it out spot on, is that the developers are all about dynamic change and rapid change, and operations, and security tend to like stability, and considered change in advance. And the business needs that needle to be threaded. And what we're seeing is sort of, with these new technologies, and with the ideas of finally moving past multicloud, into, as you guys call supercloud, which I absolutely love is a term. Let's get the advantage of all these things. What we're seeing, is people have a higher demand for the outputs from their tooling, and to find that balance of the process. I think it's acknowledged now that you're not going to have complete security. We've gotten past that, it's not a yes or no binary thing. It's, let's find that balance in risk. So, if we are deploying tooling, whether that's open source, or commercial, or something we built ourselves, what is the output? And who is best to take action on that output? And sometimes that's going to be the developers, because maybe they can just fix their architecture so that it doesn't have a particular issue. Sometimes that's going to be those platform teams saying like, "Hey, this is what we're going to apply for everybody, so that's a baseline standard." But the good news, is that those discussions are happening. And I think people are realizing that it's not a one size-fits-all. 10 years ago was sort of like, "Hey, we've got a blueprint and everyone does this." That doesn't work. And I think that being out in the open, really helps deliver these better outcomes. And because it isn't simple, it's always going to be an ongoing discussion. 'Cause what we decide today, isn't going to be the same thing in a week from now when we're sprint ahead, and we've made a whole bunch of changes on the platform and in our code. >> I think the cultural change is real. And I think this is hard for security because you got so much current action happening that's really important to the business. That's hard to just kind of do a reset without having any collateral damage. So, you kind of got to mitigate and manage all the current situation, and then try to build a blueprint for the future and transform into a kind of the next level. And it kind of reminds me of, I'm dating myself. But back in the days, you had open source was new. And the common enemy was proprietary, non-innovative old guard, kind of mainframe mini computer kind of proprietary analysis, proprietary everything. Here, there is no enemy. The clouds are doing great, right? They're leaning in open source is at all time high and not stopping, it's it's now standard. So, open is not a rebel. It's not the rebel anymore, it's the standard. So, you have the innovation happening in open source, Liz, and now you have large scale cloud. And this is a cultural shift, right? How people are buying, evaluating product, and implementing solutions. And I when I say new, I mean like new within the decades or a couple decades. And it's not like open source is not been around. But like we're seeing new things emerge that are pretty super cool in the sense that you have projects defining standards, new things are emerging. So, the CIO decision making process on how to structure teams and how to tackle security is changing. Why IT department? I mean, just have a security department and a Dev team. >> I think the fact that we are using so much more open source software is a big part of this cultural shift where there are still a huge ecosystem of vendors involved in security tools and observability tools. And Mark and I both represent vendors in those spaces. But the rise of open source tools, means that you can start with something pretty powerful that you can grow with. As you are experimenting with the security tooling that works for you, you don't have to pay a giant sum to get a sort of black box. You can actually understand the open source elements of the tooling that you are going to use. And then build on that and get the enterprise features when you need those. And I think that cultural change makes it much easier for people to work security in from the get go, and really, do that shift left that we've been talking about for the last few years. >> And I think one of the things to your point, and not only can you figure out what's in the open source code, and then build on top of it, you can also leave it too. You can go to something better, faster. So, the switching costs are a lot lower than a lock in from a vendor, where you do all the big POCs and the pilots. And, Mark, this is changing the game. I mean, I would just be bold enough to say, IT is going to be irrelevant in the sense of, if you got DevOps and it works, and you got security teams, do you really need IT 'cause the DevOps is the IT? So, if everyone goes to the cloud operations, what does IT even mean? >> Yeah, and it's a very valid point. And I think what we're seeing, is where IT is still being successful, especially in large companies, is sort of the economy of scale. If you have enough of the small teams doing the same thing, it makes sense to maybe take one tool and scale it up because you've got 20 teams that are using it. So, instead of having 20 teams run it, you get one team to run it. On the economic side, you can negotiate one contract if it's a purchase tool. There is still a place for it, but I think what we're seeing and in a very positive way, is that smaller works better when it comes to this. Because really what the cloud has done and what open source continues to do, is reduce the barrier to entry. So, a team of 10 people can build something that it took a 1000 people, a decade ago. And that's wonderful. And that opens up all these new possibilities. We can work faster. But we do need to rethink it at reinforce from AWS. They had a great track about how they're approaching it from people side of things with their security champion's idea. And it's exactly about this, is embedding high end security talent in the teams who are building it. So, that changes the central role, and the central people get called in for big things like an incident response, right? Or a massive auditor reviews. But the day-to-day work is being done in context. And I think that's the real key, is they've got the context to make smarter security decisions, just like the developers and the operational work is better done by the people who are actually working on the thing, as opposed to somebody else. Because that centralized thing, it's just communication overhead most of the time. >> Yeah. I love chatting with you guys because here's are so much experts on the field. To put my positive hat on around IT, remember the old argument of, "Oh, automation's, technology's going to kill the bank teller." There's actually more tellers now than ever before. So, the ATM machine didn't kill that. So, I think IT will probably reform from a human resource perspective. And I think this is kind of where the CSO conversation comes full circle, Liz and Mark, because, okay, let's assume that this continues the trajectory to open source, DevOps, cloud scale, hybrid. It's a refactoring of personnel. So, you're going to have DevOps driving everything. So, now the IT team becomes a team. So, most CSOs we talk to are CXOs, is how do I deploy my teams? How do I structure things, my investment in people, and machines and software in a way that I get my return? At the end of the day, that's what they live for, and do it securely. So, this is the CISO's kind of thought process. How do you guys react to that? What's the message to CISOs? 'Cause they have a lot of companies to look at here. And in the marketplace, they got to spend some money, they got to get a return, they got to reconfigure. What's your advice? Liz, what's your take? Then we'll go to Mark. >> That's a really great question. I think cloud skills, cloud engineering skills, cloud security skills have never been more highly valued. And I think investing in training people to understand cloud that there are tons of really great resources out there to help ramp people up on these skills. The CNCF, AWS, there's tons of organizations who have really great courses and exams, and things that people can do to really level up their skills, which is fantastic right from a grassroots level, through to the most widely deployed global enterprise. I think we're seeing a lot of people are very excited, develop these skills. >> Mark, what's your take for the CSO, the CXO out there? They're scratching their head, they're going, "Okay, I need to invest. DevOps is happening. I see the open source, I'm now got to change over. Yeah, I lift and shift some stuff, now I got to refactor my business or I'm dead." What's your advice? >> I think the key is longer term thinking. So, I think where people fell down previously, was, okay, I've got money, I can buy tools, roll 'em out. Every tool you roll out, has not just an economic cost, but a people cost. As Liz said, those people with those skills are in high demand. And so, you want to make sure that you're getting the most value out of your people, but your tooling. So, as you're investing in your people, you will need to roll out tools. But they're not the answer. The answer is the people to get the value out of the tools. So, hold your tools to a higher standard, whether that's commercial, open source, or something from the CSP, to make sure that you're getting actionable insights and value out of them that your people can actually use to move forward. And it's that balance between the two. But I love the fact that we're finally rotating back to focus more on the people. Because really, at the end of the day, that's what's going to make it all work. >> Yeah. The hybrid work, people processes. The key, the supercloud brings up the conversation of where we're starting to see maturation into OPEX models where CapEx is a gift from the clouds. But it's not the end of bilk. Companies are still responsible for their own security. At the end of the day, you can't lean on AWS or Azure. They have infrastructure and software, but at the end of the day, every company has to maintain their own. Certainly, with hybrid and edge coming, it's here. So, this whole concept of IT, CXO, CIO, CSO, CSO, I mean, this is hotter than ever in terms of like real change. What's your reaction to that? >> I was just reading this morning that the cost of ensuring against data breaches is getting dramatically more expensive. So, organizations are going to have to take steps to implement security. You can't just sort of throw money at the problem, you're going to actually have to throw people and technology at the problem, and take security really seriously. There is this whole ecosystem of companies and folks who are really excited about security and here to help. There's a lot of people interested in having that conversation to help those CSOs secure their deployments. >> Mark, your reaction? >> Yeah. I think, anything that causes us to question what we're doing is always a positive thing. And I think everything you brought up really comes down to remembering that no matter what, and no matter where, your data is always your data. And so, you have some level of responsibility, and that just changes depending on what system you're using. And I think that's really shifting, especially in the CSO or the CSO mindset, to go back to the basics where it used to be information security and not just cyber security. So, whether that information and that data is sitting on my desk physically, in a system in our data center, or in the cloud somewhere. Looking holistically, and that's why we could keep coming back to people. That's what it's all about. And when you step back there, you start to realize there's a lot more trade offs. There's a lot more levers that you can work on, to deliver the outcome you want, to find that balance that works for you. 'Cause at the end of the day, security is just all about making sure that whatever you built and the systems you're working with, do what you want them to do, and only what you want them to do. >> Well, Liz and Mark, thank you so much for your expert perspective. You're in the trenches, and really appreciate your time and contributing with "theCUBE," and being part of our Showcase. For the last couple of minutes, let's dig into some of the things you're working on. I know network policies around Kubernetes, Liz, EKS anywhere has been fabulous with Lambda and Serverless, you seeing some cool things go on there. Mark, you're at Lacework, very successful company. And looking at a large scale observability, signaling and management, all kinds of cool things around native cloud services and microservices. Liz, give us an update. What's going on over there at Isovalent? >> Yeah. So, Isovalent is the company behind Cilium Networking Project. Its best known as a Kubernetes networking plugin. But we've seen huge amount of adoption of cilium, it's really skyrocketed since we became an incubating project in the CNCF. And now, we are extending to using eBPF to not just do networking, but incredibly in depth observability and security observability have a new sub project called Tetragon, that gives you this amazing ability to see out of policy behavior. And again, because it's using eBPF, we've got the perspective of everything that's happening across the whole machine. So, I'm really excited about the innovations that are happening here. >> Well, they're lucky to have you. You've been a great contributor to the community. We've been following your career for very, very long time. And thanks for everything that you do, really appreciate it. Thanks. >> Thank you. >> Mark, Lacework, we we've following you guys. What are you up to these days? You know, we see you're on Twitter, you're very prolific. You're also live tweeting all the events, and with us as well. What's going on over there at Lacework? And what's going on in your world? >> Yeah. Lacework, we're still focusing on the customer, helping deliver good outcomes across cloud when it comes to security. Really looking at their environments and helping them understand, from their data that they're generating off their systems, and from the cloud usage as to what's actually happening. And that pairs directly into the work that I'm doing, the community looking at just security as a practice. So, a lot of that pulling people out of the technology, and looking at the process and saying, "Hey, we have this tech for a reason." So, that people understand what they need in place from a skill set, to take advantage of the great work that folks like Liz and the community are doing. 'Cause we've got these great tools, they're outputting all this great insights. You need to be able to take actions on top of that. So, it's always exciting. More people come into security with a security mindset, love it. >> Well, thanks so much for this great conversation. Every board should watch this video, every CSO, CIO, CSO. Great conversation, thanks for unpacking and making something very difficult, clear to understand. Thanks for your time. >> Pleasure. >> Thank you. >> Okay, this is the AWS Startup Showcase, Season Two, Episode Four of the ongoing series covering the exciting startups from the AWS ecosystem. We're talking about cybersecurity, this segment. Every quarter episode, we do a segment around a category and we go deep, we feature some companies, and talk to the best people in the industry to help you understand that. I'm John Furrier your host. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(soft joyful music) >> Welcome back everyone to the live CUBE coverage here in San Francisco for VMware Explore '22. I'm John Furrier with my host Dave Vellante. Three days of wall to wall live coverage. Two sets here at the CUBE, here on the ground floor in Moscone, and we got VMware and HPE back on the CUBE. Paul Turner, VP of products at vSphere and cloud infrastructure at VMware. Great to see you. And Mark Nickerson, Director of Go to Mark for Compute Solutions at Hewlett-Packard Enterprise. Great to see you guys. Thanks for coming on. >> Yeah. >> Thank you for having us. >> So we, we are seeing a lot of traction with GreenLake, congratulations over there at HPE. The customers changing their business model consumption, starting to see that accelerate. You guys have the deep partnership, we've had you guys on earlier yesterday. Talked about the technology partnership. Now, on the business side, where's the action at with the HP and you guys with the customer? Because, now as they go cloud native, third phase of the inflection point, >> Yep. >> Multi-cloud, hybrid-cloud, steady state. Where's the action at? >> So I think the action comes in a couple of places. Um, one, we see increased scrutiny around, kind of not only the cost model and the reasons for moving to GreenLake that we've all talked about there, but it's really the operational efficiencies as well. And, this is an area where the long term partnership with VMware has really been a huge benefit. We've actually done a lot of joint engineering over the years, continuing to do that co-development as we bring products like Project Monterey, or next generations of VCF solutions, to live in a GreenLake environment. That's an area where customers not only see the benefits of GreenLake from a business standpoint, um, on a consumption model, but also around the efficiency operationally as well. >> Paul, I want to, I want to bring up something that we always talk about on the CUBE, which is experience in the enterprise. Usually it's around, you know, technology strategy, making the right product market fit, but HPE and VMware, I mean, have exceptional depth and experience in the enterprise. You guys have a huge customer base, doesn't churn much, steady state there, you got vSphere, killer product, with a new release coming out, HP, unprecedented, great sales force. Everyone knows that you guys have great experience serving customers. And, it seems like now the fog is clearing, we're seeing clear line of sight into value proposition, you know, what it's worth, how do you make money with it, how do partners make money? So, it seems like the puzzle's coming together right now with consumption, self-service, developer focus. It just seems to be clicking. What's your take on all this because... >> Oh, absolutely. >> you got that engine there at VMware. >> Yeah. I think what customers are looking for, customers want that cloud kind of experience, but they want it on their terms. So, the work that we're actually doing with the GreenLake offerings that we've done, we've released, of course, our subscription offerings that go along with that. But, so, customers can now get cloud on their terms. They can get systems services. They know that they've got the confidence that we have integrated those services really well. We look at something like vSphere 8, we just released it, right? Well, immediately, day zero, we come out, we've got trusted integrated servers from HPE, Mark and his team have done a phenomenal job. We make sure that it's not just the vSphere releases but VSAN and we get VSAN ready nodes available. So, the customers get that trusted side of things. And, you know, just think about it. We've... 200,000 joined customers. >> Yeah, that's a lot. >> We've a hundred thousand kind of enabled partners out there. We've an enormous kind of install base of customers. But also, those customers want us to modernize. And, you know, the fact that we can do that with GreenLake, and then of course with our new features, and our new releases. >> Yeah. And it's nice that the products market fits going well on both sides. But can you guys share, both of you share, the cadence of the relationship? I mean, we're talking about vSphere, every two years, a major release. Now since 6, vSphere 6, you guys are doing three months' releases, which is amazing. So you guys got your act together there, doing great. But, you guys, so many joint customers, what's the cadence? As stuff comes out, how do you guys put that together? How tightly integrated? Can you share a quick... insight into that dynamic? >> Yeah, sure. So, I mean Mark can and add to this too, but the teams actually work very closely, where it's every release that we do is jointly qualified. So that's a really, really important thing. But it's more interesting is this... the innovation side of things. Right? If you just think about it, 'cause it's no use to just qualify. That's not that interesting. But, like I said, we've released with vSphere 8 you know... the new enhanced storage architecture. All right? The new, next generation of vSphere. We've got that immediately qualified, ready on HPE equipment. We built out new AI servers, actually with Invidia and with HPE. And, we're able to actually push the extremes of... AI and intelligence... on systems. So that's kind of work. And then, of course, our Project Monterey work. Project Monterey Distributed Services Engine. That's something we're really excited about, because we're not just building a new server anymore, we're actually going to change the way servers are built. Monterey gives us a new platform to build from that we're actually jointly working. >> So double click on that, and then to explain how HPE is taking advantage of it. I mean, obvious you have more diversity of XPU's, you've got isolation, you've got now better security, and confidential computing, all that stuff. Explain that in some detail, and how does HPE take advantage of that? >> Yeah, definitely. So, if you think about vSphere 8, vSphere 8 I can now virtualize anything. I can virtualize your CPU's, your GPU's, and now what we call DPU's, or data processing units. A data processing unit, it's... think of it as we're running, actually, effectively another version of ESX, sitting down on this processor. But, that gives us an ability to run applications, and some of the virtualization services, actually down on that DPU. It's separated away from where you run your application. So, all your applications get to consume all your CPU. It's all available to you. Your DPU is used for that virtualization and virtualization services. And that's what we've done. We've been working with HPE and HPE and Pensando. Maybe you can talk some of the new systems that we've built around this too. >> Yeah. So, I mean, that's one of the... you talked about the cadence and that... back to the cadence question real briefly. Paul hit on it. Yeah, there's a certain element of, "Let's make sure that we're certified, we're qualified, we're there day zero." But, that cadence goes a lot beyond it. And, I think Project Monterey is a great example of where that cadence expands into really understanding the solutioning that goes into what the customer's expecting from us. So, to Paul's point, yeah, we could have just qualified the ESX version to go run on a DPU and put that in the market and said, "Okay, great. Customers, We know that it works." We've actually worked very tightly with VMware to really understand the use case, what the customer needs out of that operating environment, and then provide, in the first instantiation, three very discrete product solutions aimed at different use cases, whether that's a more robust use case for customers who are looking at data intensive, analytic intensive, environments, other customers might be looking at VDI or even edge applications. And so, we've worked really closely with VMware to engineer solutions specific to those use cases, not just to a qualification of an operating environment, not just a qualification of certain software stack, but really into an understanding of the use case, the customer solution, and how we take that to market with a very distinct point of view alongside our partners. >> And you can configure the processors based on that workload. Is that right? And match the workload characteristics with the infrastructure is that what I'm getting? >> You do, and actually, well, you've got the same flexibility that we've actually built in why you love virtualization, why people love it, right? You've got the ability to kind of bring harness hardware towards your application needs in a very dynamic way. Right? So if you even think about what we built in vSphere 8 from an AI point of view, we're able to scale. We built the ability to actually take network device cards, and GPU cards, you're to able to build those into a kind of composed device. And, you're able to provision those as you're provisioning out VM's. And, the cool thing about that, is you want to be able to get extreme IO performance when you're doing deep learning applications, and you can now do that, and you can do it very dynamically, as part of the provisioning. So, that's the kind of stuff. You've got to really think, like, what's the use case? What's the applications? How do we build it? And, for the DPU side of things, yes, we've looked at how do we take some of our security services, some of our networking services, and we push those services down onto the SmartNIC. It frees up processors. I think the most interesting thing, that you probably saw on the keynote, was we did benchmarks with Reddit databases. We were seeing 20 plus, I'm sure the exact number, I think it was 27%, I have to get exact number, but a 27% latency improvement, to me... I came from the database background, latency's everything. Latency's king. It's not just... >> Well it's... it's number one conversation. >> I mean, we talk about multi-cloud, and as you start getting into hybrid. >> Right. >> Latency, data movement, efficiency, I mean, this is all in the workload mindset that the workhorses that you guys have been working at HPE with the compute, vSphere, this is heart center of the discussion. I mean, it is under the hood, and we're talking about the engine here, right? >> Sure. >> And people care about this stuff, Mark. This is like... Kubernetes only helps this better with containers. I mean, it's all kind of coming together. Where's that developer piece? 'Cause remember, infrastructure is code, what everybody wants. That's the reality. >> Right. Well, I think if you take a look at... at where the Genesis of the desire to have this capability came from, it came directly out of the fact that you take a look at the big cloud providers, and sure, the ability to have a part of that operating environment, separated out of the CPU, free up as much processing as you possibly can, but it was all in this very lockdown proprietary, can't touch it, can't develop on it. The big cloud guys owned it. VMware has come along and said, "Okay, we're going to democratize that. We're going to make this available for the masses. We're opening this up so that developers can optimize workloads, can optimize applications to run in this kind of environment." And so, really it's about bringing that cloud experience, that demand that customers have for that simplicity, that flexibility, that efficiency, and then marrying it with the agility and security of having your on premises or hybrid cloud environment. And VMware is kind of helping with that... >> That's resonating with the customer, I got to imagine. >> Yeah. >> What's the feedback you're hearing? When you talk to customers about that, the like, "Wait a minute, we'd have to like... How long is that going to take? 'Cause that sounds like a one off." >> Yeah. I'll tell you what... >> Everything is a one off now. You could do a one off. It scales. >> What I hear is give me more. We love where we're going in the first instantiation of what we can do with the Distributed Services Engine. We love what we're seeing. How do we do more? How do we drive more workloads in here? How do we get more efficiency? How can we take more of the overhead out of the CPU, free up more cores. And so, it's a tremendously positive response. And then, it's a response that's resonating with, "Love it. Give me more." >> Oh, if you're democratizing, I love that word because it means democratization, but someone's being democratized. Who's... What's... Something when... that means good things are happening, which means someone's not going to be winning out. Who's that? What... >> Well it, it's not necessarily that someone's not winning out. (laughs) What you read, it comes down to... Democratizing means you've got to look at it, making it widely available. It's available to all. And these things... >> No silos. No gatekeepers. Kind of that kind of thing. >> It's a little operationally difficult to use. You've got... Think about the DPU market. It was a divergent market with different vendors going into that market with different kind of operating systems, and that doesn't work. Right? You've got to actually go and virtualize those DPU's. So then, we can actually bring application innovation onto those DPU's. We can actually start using them in smart ways. We did the same thing with GPU's. We made them incredibly easy to use. We virtualized those GPU's, we're able to, you know, you can provision them in a very simple way. And, we did the same thing with Kubernetes. You mentioned about container based applications and modern apps in the one platform now, you can just set a cluster and you can just say, "Hey I want that as a modern apps enabled cluster." And boom. It's done. And, all of the configurations, set up, Kubernetes, it's done for you. >> But the thing that just GreenLake too, the democratization aspect of how that changed the business model unleashes... >> Right. >> ...efficiency and just simplicity. >> Oh yeah, absolutely. >> But the other thing was the 20% savings on the Reddit's benchmark, with no change required at the application level, correct? >> No change at the application level. In the vCenter, you have to set a little flag. >> Okay. You got to tick a box. >> You got to tick a little box... >> So I can live with that. But the point I'm making is that traditionally, we've had... We have an increasing amount of waste to do offloads, and now you're doing them much more efficiently, right? >> Yes. >> Instead of using the traditional x86 way of doing stuff, you're now doing purpose built, applying that to be much more efficient >> Totally agree. And I think it's becoming, it's going to become even more important. Look at, we are... our run times for our applications, We've got to move to a world where we're building completely confidential applications at all time. And that means that they are secured, encrypted, all traffic is encrypted, whether it's storage traffic, whether it's IO traffic, we've got to make sure we've got complete route of trust of the applications. And so, to do all of that is actually a... compute intensive. It just is. And so, I think as we move forward and people build much more complete, confidential, compute secured environments, you're going to be encrypting all traffic all the time. You're going to be doing micro-zoning and firewalling down at the VM level so that you've got the protection. You can take a VM, you can move it up to the cloud, it will inherit all of its policies, will move with it. All of that will take compute capacity. >> Yup. >> The great thing is that the DPU's give us this ability to offload and to use some of that spare compute capacity. >> And isolate so the application chance can't just tunnel in and get access to that >> You guys got so much going on. You can have your own CUBE show, just on the updating, what's going on between the two companies, and then the innovation. We got one minute left. Just quickly, what's the goal in the partnership? What's next? You guys going to be in the field together, doing joint customer work? Is there bigger plans? Is there events out there? What are some of your plans together in the marketplace? >> That's you. >> Yup. So, I think, Paul kind of alluded to it. Talk about the fact that you've got a hundred thousand partners in common. The venn diagram of looking at the HPE channel and the VMware channel, clearly there's an opportunity there to continue to drive a joint, go to market message, through both of our sales organizations, and through our shared channel. We have a 25,000 strong... solution architect... force that we can leverage. So as we get these exciting things to talk about, I mean, you talk about Project Monterey, the Distributed Services Engine. That's big news. There's big news around vSphere 8. And so, having those great things to go talk about with that strong sales team, with that strong channel organization, I think you're going to see a lot stronger partnership between VMware and HPE as we continue to do this joint development and joint selling >> Lots to get enthused about, pretty much there. >> Oh yeah! >> Yeah, I would just add in that we're actually in a very interesting point as well, where Intel's just coming out with Next Rev systems, we're building the next gen of these systems. I think this is a great time for customers to look at that aging infrastructure that they have in place. Now is a time we can look at upgrading it, but when they're moving it, they can move it also to a cloud subscription based model, you know can modernize not just what you have in terms of the capabilities and densify and get much better efficiency, but you can also modernize the way you buy from us and actually move to... >> Real positive change transformation. Checks the boxes there. And put some position for... >> You got it. >> ... cloud native development. >> Absolutely. >> Guys, thanks for coming on the CUBE. Really appreciate you coming out of that busy schedule and coming on and give us the up... But again, we can do a whole show some... all the moving parts and innovation going on with you guys. So thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. Thank you. I'm John Dave Vellante we're back with more live coverage day two, two sets, three days of wall to wall coverage. This is the CUBE at VMware Explorer. We'll be right back.

>> From the Cube studios in Palo Alto and Boston, bringing you data driven insights from theCUBE and ETR, this is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> While the precise direction of VMware's future is unknown, given the plan Broadcom acquisition, one thing is clear. The topic of what Broadcom plans will not be the main focus of the agenda at the upcoming VMware Explore event next week in San Francisco. We believe that despite any uncertainty, VMware will lay out for its customers what it sees as its future. And that future is multi-cloud or cross-cloud services, what we call Supercloud. Hello, and welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube Insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we drill into the latest survey data on VMware from ETR. And we'll share with you the next iteration of the Supercloud definition based on feedback from dozens of contributors. And we'll give you our take on what to expect next week at VMware Explorer 2022. Well, VMware is maturing. You can see it in the numbers. VMware had a solid quarter just this week, which was announced beating earnings and growing the top line by 6%. But it's clear from its financials and the ETR data that we're showing here that VMware's Halcion glory days are behind it. This chart shows the spending profile from ETR's July survey of nearly 1500 IT buyers and CIOs. The survey included 722 VMware customers with the green bars showing elevated spending momentum, ie: growth, either new or growing at more than 6%. And the red bars show lower spending, either down 6% or worse or defections. The gray bars, that's the flat spending crowd, and it really tells a story. Look, nobody's throwing away their VMware platforms. They're just not investing as rapidly as in previous years. The blue line shows net score or spending momentum and subtracts the reds from the greens. The yellow line shows market penetration or pervasiveness in the survey. So the data is pretty clear. It's steady, but it's not remarkable. Now, the timing of the acquisition, quite rightly, is quite good, I would say. Now, this next chart shows the net score and pervasiveness juxtaposed on an XY graph and breaks down the VMware portfolio in those dimensions, the product portfolio. And you can see the dominance of respondents citing VMware as the platform. They might not know exactly which services they use, but they just respond VMware. That's on the X axis. You can see it way to the right. And the spending momentum or the net score is on the Y axis. That red dotted line at 4%, that indicates elevated levels and only VMware cloud on AWS is above that line. Notably, Tanzu has jumped up significantly from previous quarters, with the rest of the portfolio showing steady, as you would expect from a maturing platform. Only carbon black is hovering in the red zone, kind of ironic given the name. We believe that VMware is going to be a major player in cross cloud services, what we refer to as Supercloud. For months, we've been refining the concept and the definition. At Supercloud '22, we had discussions with more than 30 technology and business experts, and we've gathered input from many more. Based on that feedback, here's the definition we've landed on. It's somewhat refined from our earlier definition that we published a couple weeks ago. Supercloud is an emerging computing architecture that comprises a set of services abstracted from the underlying primitives of hyperscale clouds, e.g. compute, storage, networking, security, and other native resources, to create a global system spanning more than one cloud. Supercloud is three essential properties, three deployment models, and three service models. So what are those essential elements, those properties? We've simplified the picture from our last report. We show them here. I'll review them briefly. We're not going to go super in depth here because we've covered this topic a lot. But supercloud, it runs on more than one cloud. It creates that common or identical experience across clouds. It contains a necessary capability that we call a superPaaS that acts as a cloud interpreter, and it has metadata intelligence to optimize for a specific purpose. We'll publish this definition in detail. So again, we're not going to spend a ton of time here today. Now, we've identified three deployment models for Supercloud. The first is a single instantiation, where a control plane runs on one cloud but supports interactions with multiple other clouds. An example we use is Kubernetes cluster management service that runs on one cloud but can deploy and manage clusters on other clouds. The second model is a multi-cloud, multi-region instantiation where a full stack of services is instantiated on multiple clouds and multiple cloud regions with a common interface across them. We've used cohesity as one example of this. And then a single global instance that spans multiple cloud providers. That's our snowflake example. Again, we'll publish this in detail. So we're not going to spend a ton of time here today. Finally, the service models. The feedback we've had is IaaS, PaaS, and SaaS work fine to describe the service models for Supercloud. NetApp's Cloud Volume is a good example in IaaS. VMware cloud foundation and what we expect at VMware Explore is a good PaaS example. And SAP HANA Cloud is a good example of SaaS running as a Supercloud service. That's the SAP HANA multi-cloud. So what is it that we expect from VMware Explore 2022? Well, along with what will be an exciting and speculation filled gathering of the VMware community at the Moscone Center, we believe VMware will lay out its future architectural direction. And we expect it will fit the Supercloud definition that we just described. We think VMware will show its hand on a set of cross-cloud services and will promise a common experience for users and developers alike. As we talked about at Supercloud '22, VMware kind of wants to have its cake, eat it too, and lose weight. And by that, we mean that it will not only abstract the underlying primitives of each of the individual clouds, but if developers want access to them, they will allow that and actually facilitate that. Now, we don't expect VMware to use the term Supercloud, but it will be a cross-cloud multi-cloud services model that they put forth, we think, at VMworld Explore. With IaaS comprising compute, storage, and networking, a very strong emphasis, we believe, on security, of course, a governance and a comprehensive set of data protection services. Now, very importantly, we believe Tanzu will play a leading role in any announcements this coming week, as a purpose-built PaaS layer, specifically designed to create a common experience for cross clouds for data and application services. This, we believe, will be VMware's most significant offering to date in cross-cloud services. And it will position VMware to be a leader in what we call Supercloud. Now, while it remains to be seen what Broadcom exactly intends to do with VMware, we've speculated, others have speculated. We think this Supercloud is a substantial market opportunity generally and for VMware specifically. Look, if you don't own a public cloud, and very few companies do, in the tech business, we believe you better be supporting the build out of superclouds or building a supercloud yourself on top of hyperscale infrastructure. And we believe that as cloud matures, hyperscalers will increasingly I cross cloud services as an opportunity. We asked David Floyer to take a stab at a market model for super cloud. He's really good at these types of things. What he did is he took the known players in cloud and estimated their IaaS and PaaS cloud services, their total revenue, and then took a percentage. So this is super set of just the public cloud and the hyperscalers. And then what he did is he took a percentage to fit the Supercloud definition, as we just shared above. He then added another 20% on top to cover the long tail of Other. Other over time is most likely going to grow to let's say 30%. That's kind of how these markets work. Okay, so this is obviously an estimate, but it's an informed estimate by an individual who has done this many, many times and is pretty well respected in these types of forecasts, these long term forecasts. Now, by the definition we just shared, Supercloud revenue was estimated at about $3 billion in 2022 worldwide, growing to nearly $80 billion by 2030. Now remember, there's not one Supercloud market. It comprises a bunch of purpose-built superclouds that solve a specific problem. But the common attribute is it's built on top of hyperscale infrastructure. So overall, cloud services, including Supercloud, peak by the end of the decade. But Supercloud continues to grow and will take a higher percentage of the cloud market. The reasoning here is that the market will change and compute, will increasingly become distributed and embedded into edge devices, such as automobiles and robots and factory equipment, et cetera, and not necessarily be a discreet... I mean, it still will be, of course, but it's not going to be as much of a discrete component that is consumed via services like EZ2, that will mature. And this will be a key shift to watch in spending dynamics and really importantly, computing economics, the things we've talked about around arm and edge and AI inferencing and new low cost computing architectures at the edge. We're talking not the near edge, like, Lowes and Home Depot, we're talking far edge and embedded devices. Now, whether this becomes a seamless part of Supercloud remains to be seen. Look, if that's how we see it, the current and the future state of Supercloud, and we're committed to keeping the discussion going with an inclusive model that gathers input from all parts of the industry. Okay, that's it for today. Thanks to Alex Morrison, who's on production, and he also manages the podcast. Ken Schiffman, as well, is on production in our Boston office. Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight, they help us get the word out on social media and in our newsletters. And Rob Hoffe is our editor in chief over at Silicon Angle and does some helpful editing. Thank you, all. Remember these episodes, they're all available as podcasts, wherever you listen. All you got to do is search Breaking Analysis Podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. You can email me directly at david.vellante@siliconangle.com or DM me @Dvellante or comment on our LinkedIn posts. Please do check out etr.ai. They've got some great enterprise survey research. So please go there and poke around, And if you need any assistance, let them know. This is Dave Vellante for the Cube Insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching, and we'll see you next time on Breaking Analysis. (lively music)

>>Mm. Joining us now is Mark Van Name, co founder of Principled Technologies. Welcome, Mark. >>Thanks, Dave. It's great to be here. >>It's great to have you here. Uh, we'd like to hear the principled technologies story. We know that you are an independent testing lab, but but tell us. Tell us the story. >>Sure. Here's the short form we're in our 20th year. We created the company with the idea that the best way to sell products was to tell the truth, which may not seem radical, but often is. And so we started out trying to prove the advantages of products. We work primarily in the technical space. We work with most of the big tech companies, and over the years, what we learned was that although we were coming up with great facts that people could use for buying decisions and they were very successful for companies, companies were then having to turn them into marketing materials. So we created a studio team and we started enlarging the range of collateral we delivered so that today we do the testing and research and in some cases, even software development necessary to prove competitive advantages. And then we package that up into compelling collateral that helps companies win in the attention economy and sell their products. All telling the truth. >>Talk to me about the numbers of customers that you work with. The numbers of projects that you do give me, Give me, Give me a sense of the kind of scale we're talking about. >>Sure, we, as I said, I've been in business for 20 years. This our 20th year. We've done at this point, I believe, several 1000 engagements in it. Typical year, we will do more than 100 engagements, each of which will typically have many components and many different tests, different pieces of collateral and so on. We've worked with more than 50 tech leading companies, as well as about as many people in non tech areas with our e learning practise. But for this purpose here, the main audience is 50 plus tech companies. So it's it's many dozen tech companies over the years. >>Have you had challenges over the years maintaining that independence? Uh, what? What do those conversations look like when maybe someone is trying to nudge you? How do you deal with that? >>So this is obviously a key question about our business model and one that we considered when we started the company. The first thing to note is that anybody looking at our results, looking at any report or looking at any company that is paid to do work has the very reasonable question that could come to them, which is why should I trust you? And our answer from the beginning is don't trust us. Verify. So unlike just about anybody else in the industry from the beginning, we give away the entire methodology what we now call the science behind the report for every engagement we do. So we don't say, Hey, we just tested this. If you go to most review sites, they'll tell you a little tiny bit about what they did, and then they'll give you their conclusions. We make available in a separate document attached to the report, the complete methodology, the system, information, software, information, um, everything about what we did, the detailed steps so that if you have the right hardware, software and expertise, you can reproduce what we did. This means you don't have to trust us. You can verify it, and it puts our work out on display for everybody. >>Mark, Thank you so much for spending time with us and telling us a little about what your company does and how you do it. Well, thanks >>for having me. Mm.

(upbeat music) >> Hello, everyone and welcome to theCUBE presentation of the AWS startup showcase, data as code. This is season two, episode two of the ongoing series covering the exciting startups from the AWS ecosystem. Here we're talking about operationalizing the data lake. I'm your host, John Furrier, and my guest here is Mark Lyons, VP of product management at Dremio. Great to see you, Mark. Thanks for coming on. >> Hey John, nice to see you again. Thanks for having me. >> Yeah, we were talking before we came on camera here on this showcase we're going to spend the next 20 minutes talking about the new architectures of data lakes and how they expand and scale. But we kind of were reminiscing by the old big data days, and how this really changed. There's a lot of hangovers from (mumbles) kind of fall through, Cloud took over, now we're in a new era and the theme here is data as code. Really highlights that data is now in the developer cycles of operations. So infrastructure is code-led DevOps movement for Cloud programmable infrastructure. Now you got data as code, which is really accelerating DataOps, MLOps, DatabaseOps, and more developer focus. So this is a big part of it. You guys at Dremio have a Cloud platform, query engine and a data tier innovation. Take us through the positioning of Dremio right now. What's the current state of the offering? >> Yeah, sure, so happy to, and thanks for kind of introing into the space that we're headed. I think the world is changing, and databases are changing. So today, Dremio is a full database platform, data lakehouse platform on the Cloud. So we're all about keeping your data in open formats in your Cloud storage, but bringing that full functionality that you would want to access the data, as well as manage the data. All the functionality folks would be used to from NC SQL compatibility, inserts updates, deletes on that data, keeping that data in Parquet files in the iceberg table format, another level of abstraction so that people can access the data in a very efficient way. And going even further than that, what we announced with Dremio Arctic which is in public preview on our Cloud platform, is a full get like experience for the data. So just like you said, data as code, right? We went through waves and source code and infrastructure as code. And now we can treat the data as code, which is amazing. You can have development branches, you can have staging branches, ETL branches, which are separate from production. Developers can do experiments. You can make changes, you can test those changes before you merge back to production and let the consumers see that data. Lots of innovation on the platform, super fast velocity of delivery, and lots of customers adopting it in just in the first month here since we announced Dremio Cloud generally available where the adoption's been amazing. >> Yeah, and I think we're going to dig into the a lot of the architecture, but I want to highlight your point you made about the branching off and taking a branch of Git. This is what developers do, right? The developers use GitHub, Git, they bake branches from code. They build on top of other code. That's open source. This is what's been around for generations. Now for the first time we're seeing data sets being taken out of production to be worked on and coded and tested and even doing look backs or even forward looking analysis. This is data being programmed. This is data as code. This is really, you couldn't get any closer to data as code. >> Yeah. It's all done through metadata by the way. So there's no actual copying of these data sets 'cause in these big data systems, Cloud data lakes and stuff, and these tables are billions of records, trillions of records, super wide, hundreds of columns wide, thousands of columns wide. You have to do this all through metadata operations so you can control what version of the data basically a individual's working with and which version of the data the production systems are seeing because these data sets are too big. You don't want to be moving them. You can't be moving them. You can't be copying them. It's all metadata and manifest files and pointers to basically keep track of what's going on. >> I think this is the most important trend we've seen in a long time, because if you think about what Agile did for developers, okay, speed, DevOps, Cloud scale, now you've got agility in the data side of it where you're basically breaking down the old proprietary, old ways of doing data warehousing, but not killing the functionality of what data warehouses did. Just doing more volume data warehouses where proprietary, not open. They were different use cases. They were single application developers when used data warehouse query, not a lot of volume. But as you get volume, these things are inadequate. And now you've got the new open Agile. Is this Agile data engineering at play here? >> Yeah, I think it totally is. It's bringing it as far forward in as possible. We're talking about making the data engineering process easier and more productive for the data engineer, which ultimately makes the consumers of that data much happier as well as way more experiments can happen. Way more use cases can be tried. If it's not a burden and it doesn't require building a whole new pipeline and defining a schema and adding columns and data types and all this stuff, you can do a lot more with your data much faster. So it's really going to be super impactful to all these businesses out there trying to be data driven, especially when you're looking at data as a code and branching, a branch off, you can de-risk your changes. You're not worried about messing up the production system, messing up that data, having it seen by end user. Some businesses data is their business so that data would be going all the way to a consumer, a third party. And then it gets really scary. There's a lot of risk if you show the wrong credit score to a consumer or you do something like that. So it's really de-risking... >> Even updating machine learning algorithms. So for instance, if the data sets change, you can always be iterating on things like machine learning or learning algorithms. This is kind of new. This is awesome, right? >> I think it's going to change the world because this stuff was so painful to do. The data sets had gotten so much bigger as you know, but we were still doing it in the old way, which was typically moving data around for everyone. It was copying data down, sampling data, moving data, and now we're just basically saying, hey, don't do that anymore. We got to stop moving the data. It doesn't make any sense. >> So I got to ask you Mark, data lakes are growing in popularity. I was originally down on data lakes. I called them data swamps. I didn't think they were going to be as popular because at that time, distributed file systems like Hadoop, and object store in the Cloud were really cool. So what happened between that promise of distributed file systems and object store and data lakes? What made data lakes popular? What made that work in your opinion? >> Yeah, it really comes down to the metadata, which I already mentioned once. But we went through these waves. John you saw we did the EDWs to the data lakes and then the Cloud data warehouses. I think we're at the start of a cycle back to the data lake. And it's because the data lakes this time around with the Apache iceberg table format, with project (mumbles) and what Dremio's working on around metadata, these things aren't going to become data swamps anymore. They're actually going to be functional systems that do inserts updates into leads. You can see all the commits. You can time travel them. And all the files are actually managed and optimized so you have to partition the data. You have to merge small files into larger files. Oh, by the way, this is stuff that all the warehouses have done behind the scenes and all the housekeeping they do, but people weren't really aware of it. And the data lakes the first time around didn't solve all these problems so that those files landing in a distributed file system does become a mess. If you just land JSON, Avro or Parquet files, CSV files into the HDFS, or in S3 compatible, object store doesn't matter, if you're just parking files and you're going to deal with it as schema and read instead of schema and write, you're going to have a mess. If you don't know which tool changed the files, which user deleted a file, updated a file, you will end up with a mess really quickly. So to take care of that, you have to put a table format so everyone's looking at Apache iceberg or the data bricks Delta format, which is an interesting conversation similar to the Parquet and org file format that we saw play out. And then you track the metadata. So you have those manifest files. You know which files change when, which engine, which commit. And you can actually make a functional system that's not going to become a swamp. >> Another trend that's extending on beyond the data lake is other data sources, right? So you have a lot of other data, not just in data lakes so you have to kind of work with that. How do you guys answer the question around some of the mission critical BI dashboards out there on the latency side? A lot of people have been complaining that these mission critical BI dashboards aren't getting the kind of performance as they add more data sources and they try to do more. >> Yeah, that's a great question. Dremio does actually a bunch of interesting things to bring the performance of these systems up because at the end of the day, people want to access their data really quickly. They want the response times of these dashboards to be interactive. Otherwise the data's not interesting if it takes too long to get it. To answer a question, yeah, a couple of things. First of all, from a data source's side, Dremio is very proficient with our Parquet files in an object store, like we just talked about, but it also can access data in other relational systems. So whether that's a Postgres system, whether that's a Teradata system or an Oracle system. That's really useful if you have dimensional data, customer data, not the largest data set in the world, not the fastest moving data set in the world, but you don't want to move it. We can query that where it resides. Bringing in new sources is definitely, we all know that's a key to getting better insights. It's in your data, is joining sources together. And then from a query speed standpoint, there's a lot of things going on here. Everything from kind of Apache, the Apache Avro project, which is in memory format of Parquet and not kind of serialize and de-serialize the data back and forth. As well as what we call reflection, which is basically a re-indexing or pre-computing of the data, but we leave it in Parquet format, in a open format in the customer's account so that you can have aggregates and other things that are really popular in these dashboards pre-computed. So millisecond response, lightning fast, like tricks that a warehouse would do that the warehouses have been doing forever. Right? >> Yeah, more deals coming in. And obviously the architecture we'll get into that now has to handle the growth. And as your customers and practitioners see the volume and the variety and the velocity of the data coming in, how are they adjusting their data strategies to respond to this? Again, Cloud is clearly the answer, not the data warehouse, but what are they doing? What's the strategy adjustment? >> It's interesting when we start talking to folks, I think sometimes it's a really big shift in thinking about data architectures and data strategies when you look at the Dremio approach. It's very different than what most people are doing today around ETL pipelines and then bringing stuff into a warehouse and oh, the warehouse is too overloaded so let's build some cubes and extracts into the next tier of tools to speed up those dashboards for those tools. And Dremio has totally flipped this on a sentence and said, no, let's not do all those things. That's time consuming. It's brittle, it breaks. And actually your agility and the scope of what you can do with your data decreases. You go from all your data and all your data sources to smaller and smaller. We actually call it the perimeter doom and a lot of people look at this and say, yeah, that kind of looks like how we're doing things today. So from a Dremio perspective, it's really about no copy, try to keep as much data in one place, keep it in one open format and less data movement. And that's a very different approach for people. I think they don't realize how much you can accomplish that way. And your latency shrinks down too. Your actual latency from data created to insight is much shorter. And it's not because of the query response time, that latency is mostly because of data movement and copy and all these things. So you really want to shrink your time to insight. It's not about getting a faster query from a few seconds down, it's about changing the architecture. >> The data drift as they say, interesting there. I got to ask you on the personnel side, team side, you got the technical side, you got the non-technical consumers of the data, you got the data science or data engineering is ramping up. We mentioned earlier data engineering being Agile, is a key innovation here. As you got to blend the two personas of technical and non-technical people playing with data, coding with data, we're the bottlenecks in this process today. How can data teams overcome these bottlenecks? >> I think we see a lot of bottlenecks in the process today, a lot of data movement, a lot of change requests, update this dashboard. Oh, well, that dashboard update requires an ETL pipeline update, requires a column to be added to this warehouse. So then you've got these personas, like you said, some more technical, less technical, the data consumers, the data engineers. Well, the data engineers are getting totally overloaded with requests and work. And it's not even super value-add work to the business. It's not really driving big changes in their culture and insights and new new use cases for data. It's turning through kind of small changes, but it's taking too much time. It's taking days, if not weeks for these organizations to manage small changes. And then the data consumers, the less technical folks, they can't get the answers that they want. They're waiting and waiting and waiting and they don't understand why things are so challenging, how things could take so much time. So from a Dremio perspective, it's amazing to watch these organizations unleash their data. Get the data engineers, their productivity up. Stop dealing with some of the last mile ETL and small changes to the data. And Dremio actually says, hey, data consumers, here's a really nice gooey. You don't need to be a SQL expert, well, the tool will write the joints for you. You can click on a column and say, hey, I want to calculate a new field and calculate that field. And it's all done virtually so it's not changing the physical data sets. The actual data engineering team doesn't even really need to care at that point. So you get happier data consumers at the end of the day. They're doing things more self-service. They're learning about the data and the data engineering teams can go do value-add things. They can re-architecture the platform for the future. They can do POCs to test out new technologies that could support new use cases and bring those into the organization. Things that really add value, instead of just churning through backlogs of, hey, can we get a column added or we change... Everyone's doing app development, AB testing, and those developers are king. Those pipelines stream all this data down when the JSON files change. You need agility. And if you don't have that agility, you just get this endless backlog that you never... >> This is data as code in action. You're committing data back into the main brand that's been tested. That's what developers do. So this is really kind of the next step function. I got to put the customer hat on for a second and ask you kind of the pessimist question. Okay, we've had data lakes, I've got data lakes, it's been data lakes around, I got query engines here and there, they're all over the place, what's missing? What's been missing from the architecture to fully realize the potential of a data lakehouse? >> Yeah, I think that's a great question. The customers say exactly that John. They say, "I've got 22 databases, you got to be kidding me. You showed up with another database." Or, hey, let's talk about a Cloud data lake or a data lake. Again, I did the data lake thing. I had a data lake and it wasn't everything I thought it was going to be. >> It was bad. It was data swamp. >> Yeah, so customers really think this way, and you say, well, what's different this time around? Well, the Cloud in the original data lake world, and I'm just going to focus on data lakes, so the original data lake worlds, everything was still direct attached storage, so you had to scale your storage and compute out together. And we built these huge systems. Thousands of thousands of HDFS nodes and stuff. Well, the Cloud brought the separated compute and storage, but data lakes have never seen separated compute and storage until now. We went from the data lake with directed tap storage to the Cloud data warehouse with separated compute and storage. So the Cloud architecture and getting compute and storage separated is a huge shift in the data lake world. And that agility of like, well, I'm only going to apply it, the compute that I need for this question, for this answer right now, and not get 5,000 servers of compute sitting around at some peak moment. Or just 5,000 compute servers because I have five petabytes or 50 petabytes of data that need to be stored in the discs that are attached to them. So I think the Cloud architecture and separating compute and storage is the first thing that's different this time around about data lakes. But then more importantly than that is the metadata tier. Is the data tier and having sufficient metadata to have the functionality that people need on the data lake. Whether that's for governance and compliance standpoints, to actually be able to do a delete on your data lake, or that's for productivity and treating that data as code, like we're talking about today, and being able to time travel it, version it, branch it. And now these data lakes, the data lakes back in the original days were getting to 50 petabytes. Now think about how big these Cloud data lakes could be. Even larger and you can't move that data around so we have to be really intelligent and really smart about the data operations and versioning all that data, knowing which engine touch the data, which person was the last commit and being able to track all that, is ultimately what's going to make this successful. Because if you don't have the governance in place these days with data, the projects are going to fail. >> Yeah, and I think separating the query layer or SQL layer and the data tier is another innovation that you guys have. Also it's a managed Cloud service, Dremio Cloud now. And you got the open source angle too, which is also going to open up more standardization around some of these awesome features like you mentioned the joints, and I think you guys built on top of Parquet and some other cool things. And you got a community developing, so you get the Cloud and community kind of coming together. So it's the real world that is coming to light saying, hey, I need real world applications, not the theory of old school. So what use cases do you see suited for this kind of new way, new architecture, new community, new programability? >> Yeah, I see people doing all sorts of interesting things and I'm sure with what we've introduced with Dremio Arctic and the data is code is going to open up a whole new world of things that we don't even know about today. But generally speaking, we have customers doing very interesting things, very data application things. Like building really high performance data into use cases whether that's a supply chain and manufacturing use case, whether that's a pharma or biotech use case, a banking use case, and really unleashing that data right into an application. We also see a lot of traditional data analytics use cases more in the traditional business intelligence or dashboarding use cases. That stuff is totally achievable, no problems there. But I think the most interesting stuff is companies are really figuring out how to bring that data. When we offer the flexibility that we're talking about, and the agility that we're talking about, you can really start to bring that data back into the apps, into the work streams, into the places where the business gets more value out of it. Not in a dashboard that some person might have access to, or a set of people have access to. So even in the Dremio Cloud announcement, the press release, there was a customer, they're in Europe, it's called Garvis AI and they do AI for supply chains. It's an intelligent application and it's showing customers transparently how they're getting to these predictions. And they stood this all up in a very short period of time, because it's a Cloud product. They don't have to deal with provisioning, management, upgrades. I think they had their stuff going in like 30 minutes or something, like super quick, which is amazing. The data was already there, and a lot of organizations, their data's already in these Cloud storages. And if that's the case... >> If they have data, they're a use case. This is agility. This is agility coming to the data engineering field, making data programmable, enabling the data applications, the data ops for everybody, for coding... >> For everybody. And for so many more use cases at these companies. These data engineering teams, these data platform teams, whether they're in marketing or ad tech or Fiserv or Telco, they have a list. There's a list about a roadmap of use cases that they're waiting to get to. And if they're drowning underwater in the current tooling and barely keeping that alive, and oh, by the way, John, you can't go higher 30 new data engineers tomorrow and bring on the team to get capacity. You have to innovate at the architecture level, to unlock more data use cases because you're not going to go triple your team. That's not possible. >> It's going to unlock a tsunami of value. Because everyone's clogged in the system and it's painful. Right? >> Yeah. >> They've got delays, you've got bottlenecks. you've got people complaining it's hard, scar tissue. So now I think this brings ease of use and speed to the table. >> Yeah. >> I think that's what we're all about, is making the data super easy for everyone. This should be fun and easy, not really painful and really hard and risky. In a lot of these old ways of doing things, there's a lot of risk. You start changing your ETL pipeline. You add a column to the table. All of a sudden, you've got potential risk that things are going to break and you don't even know what's going to break. >> Proprietary, not a lot of volume and usage, and on-premises, open, Cloud, Agile. (John chuckles) Come on, which path? The curtain or the box, what are you going to take? It's a no brainer. >> Which way do you want to go? >> Mark, thanks for coming on theCUBE. Really appreciate it for being part of the AWS startup showcase data as code, great conversation. Data as code is going to enable a next wave of innovation and impact the future of data analytics. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Yeah, thanks John and thanks to the AWS team. A great partnership between AWS and Dremio too. Talk to you soon. >> Keep it right there, more action here on theCUBE. As part of the showcase, stay with us. This is theCUBE, your leader in tech coverage. I'm John Furrier, your host, thanks for watching. (downbeat music)

(bright upbeat music) >> Hey everyone. Welcome to this "CUBE Conversation" featuring Dremio. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. And I'm excited today to be joined by Mark Lyons the VP of product management at Dremio. Mark thanks for joining us today. >> Hey Lisa, thank you for having me. Looking forward to the top. >> Yeah. Talk to me about what's going on at Dremio. I had the chance to talk to your chief product officer Tomer Shiran in a couple months ago but talk to us about what's going on. >> Yeah, I remember that at re:Invent it's been an exciting few months since re:Invent here at Dremio and just in the new year we raised our Series E since then we ran into our subsurface event which we had over seven, 8,000 registrants and attendees. And then we announced our Dremio cloud product generally available including Dremio Sonar, which is SQL query engine and Dremio Arctic in public preview which is a better store for the lakehouse. >> Great. And we're going to dig into both of those. I saw that over 400 million raised in that Series E raising the valuation of Dremio to 2 billion. So a lot of growth and momentum going on at the company I'm sure. If we think about businesses in any industry they've made large investments in data warehouses, proprietary data warehouses. Talk to me about historically what they've been able to achieve, but then what some those bottlenecks are that they're running into. >> Yeah, for sure. My background is actually in the data warehouse space. I spent over the last eight, maybe close to 10 years and we've seen this shift go on from the traditional enterprise data warehouse to the data lake to the the last couple years is really been the time of the cloud data warehouse. And there's been a large amount of adoption of cloud data warehouses, but fundamentally they still come with a lot of the same challenges that have always existed with the data warehouse, which is first of all you have to load your data into it. So that data's coming from lots of different sources. In many cases, it's landing in a files in the data lake like a repository like S3 first. And then there's a loading process, right? An ETL process. And those pipelines have to be maintained and stay operational. And typically as the data warehouse life cycle of processing moves on the scope of the data that consumers get to access gets smaller and smaller. The control of that data gets tighter and change process gets heavier, and it goes from quick changes of adding a column or adding a field to a file to days if not weeks for businesses to modify their data pipelines and test new scenarios offer new features in the application or answer new questions that the business is interested you know, from an analytics standpoint. So typically we see the same thing even with these cloud data warehouses, the scope of the data shrinks, the time to get answers gets longer. And when new engines come along the same story we see, and this is going on right now in the data warehouse space there's new data that are coming and they say, well we're a thousand faster times faster than the last data warehouse. And then it's like, okay, great. But what's the process? The process is to migrate all your data to the new data warehouse, right? And that comes with all the same baggage. Again, it's a proprietary format that you load your data into. So I think people are ready for a change from that. >> People are not only ready for a change, but as every company has to become a data company these days and access to real time data is no longer a nice to have. It's absolutely essential. The ability to scale the ability to harness the value from as much data as possible and to do so fast is real really table stakes for any organization. How is Dremio helping customers in that situation to operationalize their data? >> Yeah, so that's why I was so intrigued and loved about Dremio when I joined three, four, five months back. Coming from the warehouse space, when I first saw the product I was just like, oh my gosh, this is so much easier for folks. They can access a larger scope of their data faster, which to your point, like is table stakes for all organizations these days they need to be able to analyze data sooner. Sooner is the better. Data has a halflife, right? Like it decays. The value of data decays over time. So typically the most valuable data is the newest data. And that all depends on what we're the industries we're talking about the types of data and the use cases, but it's always basically true that newer data is more valuable and they need to be able to analyze as much of it as possible. The story can't be, no, we have to wait weeks or months to get a new data source or the story can't be you know, that data that includes seasonality. You know, we weren't able to keep in the same location because it's too expensive to keep it in the warehouse or whatever. So for Dremio and our customers our story is simple, is leverage the data where it is so access data in all sorts of sources, whether it's a post press database or an S3 bucket, and don't move the data don't copy the data, analyze it in place. And don't limit the scope of the data you're trying to analyze. If you have new use cases you have additional data sets that you want to add to those use cases, just bring them in, into S3 and you are off to the races and you can easily analyze more data and give more power to the end user. So if there's a field that they want to calculate the simple change convert this miles field, the kilometers well, the end users should be empowered to just make a calculation on the data like that. That should not require an entire cycle through a data engineering team and a backlog and a ticket and pushing that to production and so forth which in many cases it does at many organizations. It's a lot of effort to make new calculations on the data or derive new fields, add a new column and so forth. So Dremio makes the data engineers life easier and more productive. It also makes the data consumers life much easier and happier, and they can just do their job without worrying about and waiting. >> Not only can they do their job but from a business, a high level perspective the business is probably has the opportunity to be far more competitive because it's got a bigger scope of data, as you mentioned, access to it more widely faster and those are only good things in terms of- >> More use cases, more experiments, right? So what I've seen a lot is like there's no shortage of ideas of what people can do with the data. And projects that might be able to be undertaken but no one knows exactly how valuable that will be. How whether that's something that should be funded or should not be funded. So like more use cases, more experiments try more things. Like if it's cheap to try these data problems and see if it's valuable to the business then that's better for the business. Ultimately the business will be more competitive. We'll be able to try more new products we'll be able to have better operational kind of efficiencies, lower risk all those things. >> Right. What about data governance? Talk to me about how the Lakehouse enables that across all these disparate data volumes. >> I think this is where things get really interesting with the Lakehouse concept relative to where we used to be with a data lake, which was a parking ground for just lots of files. And that came with a lot of challenges when you just had a lot of files out there in a data lake, whether that was HDFS, right. I do data lake back in the day or now a cloud storage object, storage data lake. So historically I feel like governance, access authentication, auditing all were extremely challenging with the data lake but now in the modern kind of lake in the modern lakehouse world, all those challenges have been solved. You have great everything from the front of the house with all and access policies and data masking everything that you would expect through commits and tables and transactions and inserts and updates and deletes, and auditing of that data able to see, well who made the changes to the data, which engine, which user when were they made and seeing the whole history of a table and not just one, not just a mess of files in a file store. So it's really come a long way. I feel like where the renaissance stage of the 2.0 data lakes or lakehouses as people call them. But basically what you're seeing is a lot of functionality from the traditional warehouse, all available in the lake. And warehouses had a lot of governance built in. And whether that is encryption and column access policies and row access policies. So only the right user saw the right data or some data masking. So that like the social security was masked out but the analyst knew it was a social security number. That was all there. Now that's all available on the lakehouse and you don't need to copy data into a data warehouse just to meet those type of requirements. Huge one is also deletes, right? Like I feel like deletes were one of the Achilles heels of the original data lake when there was no governance. And people were just copying data sets around modifying data sets for whatever their analytics use case was. If someone said, "Hey, go delete the right. To be forgotten GDPR." Now you've got Californias CCPA and others all coming online. If you said, go delete this per you know, this records or set of records from there from a lake original lake. I think that was impossible, probably for many people to do it with confidence, like to say that like I fully deleted this. Now with the Apache like iceberg cable format that is stores in the lakehouse architecture, you actually have delete functionality, right? Which is a key component that warehouses are traditionally brought to the table. >> That's a huge component from a compliance perspective. You mentioned GDPR, CCPA, which is going to be CPRA in less than a year, but there's so many other regulations data privacy regulations that are coming up that the ability to delete that is going to be table stakes for organizations, something that you guys launched. And we just have a couple minutes left, but you launched I love the name, the forever free data Lakehouse platform. That sounds great. Forever Free. Talk to me about what that really means is consisting of two products the Sonar and Arctic that you mentioned, but talk to me about this Forever Free data Lakehouse. >> Yeah. I feel like this is an amazing step forward in this, in the industry. And because of the Dremio cloud architecture, where the execution and data lives in the customer's cloud account we're able to basically say, hey, the Dremio software the Dremio service side of this platform is Forever Free for users. Now there is a paid tier but there's a standard tier that is truly forever free. Now that that still comes with infrastructure bills from like your cloud provider, right? So if you use AWS, you still have an S3 bill like for your data sets because we're not moving them. They're staying in your Amazon account in your S3 bucket. You still do still have to pay for right. The infrastructure, the EC2 and the compute to do the data analytics but the actual softwares is free forever. And there's no one else in our space offering that at in our space, everything's a free trial. So here's your $500 of credit. Come try my product. And what we're saying is with this kind of our unique architectural approach and this is what I think is preferred by customers too. You know, we take care of all the query planning all the engine management, all the administrative the platform, the upgrades fully available zero downtime platform. So they get all the benefits of SaaS as well as the benefits of maintaining control over their data. And because that data staying in their account and the execution of the analytics is staying in their account. We don't incur that infrastructure bill. So we can have a free forever tier a forever free tier of our platform. And we've had tremendous adoption. I think we announced this beginning of March first week of March. So it's not even the end of March. Hundreds and hundreds of signups and many customers actively are users actively on the platform now live querying their data >> Just kind of summarizes the momentum that Dremio we seeing. Mark, thank you so much. We're out of time, but thanks for talking to me- >> Thank you. >> About what's new at Dremio. What you guys are doing. Next time, we'll have to unpack this even more. I'm sure there's loads more we could talk about but we appreciate that. >> Yeah, this was great. Thank you, Lisa. Thank you. >> My pleasure for Mark Lyons. I'm Lisa Martin. Keep it right here on theCUBE your leader in high tech hybrid event coverage. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hey, welcome back everyone to theCUBE's coverage of AWS re:Invent 2021. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE. We've got two sets on the show floor, it's a virtual event, we've got the hybrid stream going, check out all the content we're here for wall-to-wall coverage. It's all been about data cloud transformation, culture change, and making things happen. I got a great segment here with Accenture, Chris Copeland, CTO of Accenture's Federal Services, and Mark Kim, the CEO of Municipal Securities Rulemaking Board, also known as the MSRB. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, John, it's a pleasure to be here. >> Thanks for coming, first of all, explain what the Municipal Rulemaking Board does, so people know what it is and we'll jump in. >> Sure, thank you, John, for the opportunity to have this conversation, the MSRB serves as the principal regulator of the $4 trillion Municipal Securities market. So Municipal Securities or muni-Bonds as there're most commonly known, finance the majority of this nation's infrastructure from the public schools that educate our kids to the hospitals that care for our sick. Muni-bonds even finance the airport that we flew into to get to this conference. But in addition to writing the rules that regulate this market, the MSRB also provides the technology infrastructure that supports this market. So, in addition to being a financial regulator, the MSRB is also a technology company and we saw the future of technology and cloud computing and that was our decision to embrace that future and to move the MSRB to the cloud. >> Correct, and obviously, Chris, this is critical infrastructure, you're talking about, legacy, has a lot of legacy as well. A lot of data, money's involved. I mean all the wrappings of transformation stories there. >> Yeah, and it's great. I mean, the MSRB and Mark in particular really had the right mindset of understanding that, we all talk about migrating to the cloud. That's really just the beginning. Like it's really about once you're in the cloud, the aperture that opens up the art of the possible and what you can really do. And the MSRB is like right on all of it, right? It's all about data. It's all about transformation, but I think the key for that transformational success that we've seen, is understanding that the organization needs to change too. And that we need to enable that organization to really be productive and deliver on that mission in a cloud first world. >> Well, Mark, I want to get into this 'cause this has been a big part of my reporting this past year during the pandemic and maybe the year earlier. I saw the public sector in particular really forced it to change. >> Yeah. >> Cultural shift instantly, they had no choice. It was a forcing function and there was the haves and have nots, the ones who have done the work, put their toe in the water, invested in some technology, knew about cloud and then ones that weren't, and they were thrown in the water. They had to figure out how to swim very quickly. So take us through the importance of that because we heard today and even in the keynote with Swami on stage from Amazon saying governance could be an enabler, not an inhibitor. So you're in this world of obviously muni-bonds, I'm sure there's a lot of compliance involved. So, take us through the journey, how you guys changed the culture? What was the outcome? Take us a quick highlight on the whole process. >> Absolutely, so, for the MSRB, the cloud migration was always about way more than just moving our applications from our servers to AWS's servers. This was an opportunity for the organization to put in place a cultural transformation. And that's the power of this opportunity for the MSRB. We were able to make a commitment to our people, which we did right at the outset, that we were going to bring all of our people with us on this journey to the cloud. This was a major investment in re-skilling and retraining our staff. We didn't have staff who had experienced migrating applications to the cloud. We didn't have software engineers who had prior experience working in cloud native environments. We trained them and we made that commitment to do that and to bring all of our people along. And that has enabled the MSRB to create a culture of innovation, of teamwork. It also allowed us to break down some silos within our organization. Not only within the IT organization, but between IT and business, it was a transformational opportunity. >> I mean, effecting change is hard, what was the learnings? When did you realize it's working? (John laughs) >> So having completed the migration itself, one of my fears was we've just literally spent millions of dollars investing in our staff, re-skilling and retraining them. We've just gone through a very technical, highly complex migration. These are people who are in high demand. Not to mention that AWS decided to put HQ2 right outside of Washington DC, announced plans to hire 10,000 people over the next 10 years. So I was worried on the other side of the migration that we would have a talent drain, and the best proof that I have that we've got our cultural transformation underway and going in the right direction is we didn't see that brain drain. We have staff that want to stay at the MSRB, that are excited about being able to continue to learn about new technologies, staff that are excited to be kind of on the cutting edge of financial regulation and being a part of building the future of the MSRB. >> Okay, there's a purpose there, I mean, I think this is, this highlights this whole conference here at re:Invent. I was just talking to someone off camera during lunch and like, it's an Amazon learning Conference as they say that their humble is learning, but it's also a thought leadership conference because they're introducing new stuff that's actually like, it gets the juices flowing and you're like, wait a minute, I can do more things. So, it's got that kind of conference, ted kind of vibe to it, plus it's real. >> I think that's one of the best benefits that we saw as part of this program that, and we talk a lot about how to infuse innovation into the fabric of your DNA and organization, and I don't think that personified itself anywhere that I've seen as well as at the MSRB. Mark was talking about people wanting to stay and work there. I'll even, I think he's understating it. People were excited about the process-- >> Yeah, they want to come to work everyday. >> There was competitions going on, on who was going to get certified. There was challenges about who's going to learn the most cloud and that desire to really continuously improve and bring those new innovations was unparalleled that I've seen. What Mark and the MSRB don't have the luxury of just keeping pace with those that they regulate. They've got to stay ahead. >> Yeah. >> And if you're going to stay ahead, you've got to have that innovative culture and you've got to take change as something that isn't this big mountain to climb, but something that's actually exciting to do every day. And I think it really, really came out in the program here. >> That's one of the things I think it's one of the smartest moves you can make and I think you've made it, by getting the people on the right wave of technology is a retention bonus. >> Absolutely. >> It's not just keeping them happy 'cause if you're working on cool stuff, it's fun. >> Right. >> But if you get them on the right way where they're constantly learning, and then they've to be a part of something. >> Yeah. >> This cloud migration, I think that's a real retention thing. Do you agree, you've seen the same thing? >> Yeah, absolutely. Its such a motivator to know that our staff is front and center leading the charge in transforming the MSRB. Not only culturally but also digitally. >> Yeah. >> And bringing us into the future. >> Okay, so I got to put you on the spot because I'm want to put my evil genius hat on for a second. Okay, I want to make money, I'm a FinTech arbitrager, I want to get in and work the muni-bond data angle, obviously worry about, you've got a lot of oversight, governance, regulation. Can you move fast enough to protect the data to make sure things are stable? Take us through that because there's a lot of money involved talking about like a serious part of our economy and a financial system. >> Yeah. >> It's critical infrastructure. >> Yeah. >> So, you got to also have that balance of innovation and compliance and governance without getting in the way. >> Absolutely. >> Take us through how you handle that. >> Absolutely, as a financial regulator that provides the market with its technology infrastructure, failure is not an option nor is falling behind the times. We have to evolve with our evolving market. And the pace of change is moving faster and faster. If you look at today, what's different about the MSRB being in the cloud than route being on-prem in our data centers, for our stakeholders, we don't have customers as a financial regulatory we have stakeholders, the entities that we regulate and the entities that we protect, our stakeholders will see systems that are more available. In the first 12 months of operations in the cloud, we achieved over 99.98% system availability. Performance has improved in our own internal benchmark tests, our systems are running 30% faster than they were and then finally our systems are more secure. This is a hard one to quantify or to explain or to kind of deliver to customers, but I-- >> There's no ROI conversation when you've been hacked. >> Exactly, I am-- >> Its only a disaster. >> But I am confident that our systems are more secure today in the cloud, than they were on-prem in our data centers. >> Yeah, Chris, this is a huge thing. I'm not going to rant a little bit, I'll do a side rant, but everyone who watches theCUBE knows I'm kind of a digital hawk. I truly believe that the red line needs to be changed because we are being attacked at a cyber level and almost like the, I get to see people being excited to work there because it's almost like the military, you got to protect. There's so much downsized, not so much justification of ROI. This is critical infrastructure, financial systems and databases. And there's no malice, there's no government forces to protect you. >> I mean, Mark said it well, failure isn't an option, right? And I think what we're seeing and why everyone is really rapidly moving to the cloud is you cannot get that level of cybersecurity, you cannot get that real time information access, and then run your models to look for trends of where the threats are maybe coming from, and proactively address those threats. You can't do that in a legacy infrastructure model on-prem, you've got to embrace the power of the cloud and the services that the AWS cloud provides to be able to truly try to stay ahead. I mean, you have to bring that innovation every day in your lunch bag and say, how are we going to use these tools that only the cloud affords us to bring security to the forefront? >> And John, can I add on that point? 'Cause I think it's an important one around security. In the legacy environment, in our data centers, the MSRB was handling security by ourselves, and I think one of the biggest lessons learned for us is pick your partners carefully. >> Yes. >> We chose AWS and we chose Accenture Federal Services and we've now tripled our investments in security, both what Amazon is investing in their infrastructure, we've also have AFS providing managed security services for the MSRB in addition to our own security team. So we've literally tripled our security. >> It's interesting and I think that's one of the reasons why you mentioned the retention thing and why people are happy is, it attracts a certain kind of individual to work there. It's the elite tech athlete, we call them, because they like, want the action, the young kids there, they want the tech, they don't want to be boring. So, what better wave to ride when you know there's a lot to protect, again, back to the cyber, this is huge cultural shift in the new generation coming in versus the old IT. The old IT was okay, we're operational, keep the lights on, add some servers, now it's like a lot more is at stake. >> Yeah. >> Okay, great, I know we don't have a lot of time left, but I do want to get the data question. I have to ask you-- >> Sure. >> You're a data company as well, you got to watch the data, what's the vision and data? How are you looking at the data with your team? >> So data is the future of the MSRB and we will remain a financial regulator and write the rules that regulate this market, that's our core mission and we will always do that. We will also always be a technology firm that provides the technology infrastructure for this market. But in the future what the cloud has enabled us to do is to become a data company. We serve as the central repository of market data for this $4 trillion market. And we now, thanks to almost infinite scalable computing power storage, we now have the ability to leverage cloud tools like artificial intelligence, machine learning, to actually get at an unlock insight from the vast amounts of market data that we have and deliver that to the industry that we regulate and serve. >> And you guys have so much headroom because Chris, with Graviton3-- >> Yep. >> And the Stack, you can actually write the apps built for the performance, for your needs. >> That's right. >> Yes. >> For the data needs, 'cause that's your advantage. >> That's right. >> Yeah, it's just incredible. I just find it like, I haven't seen anything like this since the shift from client server to inter networking back in the 90s where you saw a sea change of capabilities just completely change over, it's been pretty incredible. >> Yeah. >> Okay, final word. Just re:Invent, what do you guys think? >> This is my first business trip since the pandemic started and it's fantastic to be with people, to see people to do this in person instead of virtually, so thank you for this opportunity. >> I know, I felt so amazed. Chris, what about you, what's your take? >> It's wonderful to be here, it's great being back, back out in the world I guess. >> Yep >> Getting to meet with Mark, where we're not looking at a screen at each other, meeting with peers, but also just the collaboration and innovation you're going to get in an environment like this and the energy that it brings, you just can't match that. So it's been a great show so far and I'm looking forward to the rest of it. >> The phrase I hear a lot on theCUBE, also I say it a lot, a kid in the candy store 'cause there's so much coming out, just the capabilities, you're starting to see more ease of use, more infrastructure as code now, data as code, a lot of great stuff, all part of the cloud transformation. So great for coming on and sharing the story, Mark, I appreciate it. >> Thank you John. >> It's good to hear about your awesome program, Chris, thanks for coming on too. >> Yep, thanks for having us. >> Appreciate it, okay, Cube Coverage here in Las Vegas. I'm John Furrier, you're watching theCUBE, the leader in global tech coverage, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Dave Vellante: Okay. We're back with Mark Hill. who's the Director of IT Operations at Digital River. Mark. Welcome to the cube. Good to see you. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. >> Hey, tell us a little bit more about Digital River, people know you as a, a payment platform, you've got marketing expertise. How do you differentiate from other e-commerce platforms? >> Well, I don't think people realize it, but Digital River was founded about 27 years ago. Primarily as a one-stop shop for e-commerce right? And so we offered site development, hosting, order management, fraud, expert controls, tax, um, physical and digital fulfillment, as well as multilingual customer service, advanced reporting and email marketing campaigns, right? So it was really just kind of a broad base for e-commerce. People could just go there. Didn't have to worry about anything. What we found over time as e-commerce has matured, we've really pivoted to a more focused API offering, specializing in just our global seller services. And to us that means payment, fraud, tax, and compliance management. So our, our global footprint allows companies to outsource that risk management and expand their markets internationally, um very quickly. And with low cost of entry. >> Yeah. It's an awesome business. And, you know, to your point, you were founded way before there was such a thing as the modern cloud, and yet you're a cloud native business. >> Yeah. >> Which I think talks to the fact that, that incumbents can evolve. They can reinvent themselves from a technology perspective. I wonder if you could first paint a picture of, of how you use the cloud, you use AWS, you know, I'm sure you got S3 in there. Maybe we could talk about that a little bit. >> Yeah, exactly. So when I think of a cloud native business, you kind of go back to the history. Well, 27 years ago, there wasn't a cloud, right? There wasn't any public infrastructure. It was, we basically stood our own data center up in a warehouse. And so over our history, we've managed our own infrastructure and collocated data centers over time through acquisitions and just how things worked. You know those over 10 data centers globally. for us it was expensive, well from a software hardware perspective, as well as, you know, getting the operational teams and expertise up to up to speed too. So, and it was really difficult to maintain and ultimately not core to our business, right? Nowhere in our mission statement, does it say that we're our goal is to manage data centers? So, so about five years ago, we started the journey from our hosted into AWS. It was a hundred percent lift it and shift plan, and we were able to bleed that migration a little over two years, right. Amazon really just fit for us. It was a natural, a natural place for us to land and they made it really easy here for us to not to say it wasn't difficult, but, but once in the public cloud, we really adopted a cloud first vision. Meaning that we'll not only consume their infrastructure as the service, but we'll also purposely evaluate and migrate to software as a service. So I come from a database background. So an example would be migrating from self deployed and managed relational databases over to AWS RDS, relational database service. You know, you're able to utilize the backups, the standby and the patching tools. Automagically, you know, with a click of the button. And that's pretty cool. And so we moved away from the time consuming operational tasks and, and really put our resources into revenue and generate new products, you know, like pivoting to an API offering. I always like to say that we stopped being busy and started being productive. >> Ha ha. I love that. >> That's really what the cloud has done for us. >> Is that you mean by cloud native? I mean, being able to take advantage of those primitives and native API. So what does that mean for your business? >> Yeah, exactly. I think, well, the first step for us was just to consume the infrastructure right, in that, but now we're looking at targeted services that they have in there too. So, you know, we have our, our, our data stream of services. So log analytics, for example, we used to put it locally on the machine. Now we're just dumping into an S3 bucket and we're using Kinesis to consume that data, put it in Eastic and go from there. And none of the services are managed by Digital River. We're just utilizing the capabilities that AWS has there too. So. >> And as an e-commerce player, retail company, we were ever concerned about moving to AWS as a possible competitor, or did you look at other clouds? What can you tell us about that? >> Yeah. And, and so I think e-commerce has really matured, right? And so we, we got squeezed out by the Amazons of the world. It's just not something that we were doing, but we had really a good area of expertise with our global seller services. But so we evaluated Microsoft. We evaluated AWS as well as Google. And, you know, back when we did that, Microsoft was Windows-based. Google was just coming into the picture, really didn't fit for what we were doing, but Amazon was just a natural fit. So we made a business decision, right? It was financially really the best decision for us. And so we didn't really put our feelings into it, right? We just had to move forward and it's better than where we're at. And we've been delighted actually. >> Yeah. It makes sense. Best cloud, best, best tech. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I want to talk about ChaosSearch. A lot of people describe it as a data lake for log analytics. Do you agree with that? You know, what does that, what does that even mean? >> Well, from, from our perspective, because they're self-managed solutions were costly and difficult to maintain, you know, we had older versions of self deployed using Splunk, other things like that, too. So over time, we made a conscious decision to limit our data retention in generally seven days. But in a lot of cases, it was zero. We just couldn't consume that, that log data because of the cost, intimidating in itself, because of this limit, you know, we've lost important data points use for incident triage, problem management, problem management, trending, and other things too. So ChaosSearch has offered us a manageable and cost-effective opportunity to store months, or even years of data that we can use for operations, as well as trending automation. And really the big thing that we're pushing into is an event driven architecture so that we can proactively manage our services. >> Yeah. You mentioned Elastic, I know I've talked to people who use the ELK Stack. They say you there's these exponential growth in the amount of data. So you have to cut it off at whatever. I think you said seven days or, or less you're saying, you're not finding that with, with ChaosSearch? >> Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And that was one of the huge benefits here too. So, you know, we were losing out if there was a lower priority incident, for example, and people didn't get to it until eight, nine days later. Well, all the breadcrumbs are gone. So it was really just kind of a best guess or the incident really wasn't resolved. We didn't find a root cause. >> Yeah. Like my video camera down there. My, you know, my other house, somebody breaks in and I don't find out for, for two weeks and then the video's gone. That kind of same thing. >> Yep So, so, so how do you, can you give us some more detail on how you use your data lake and ChaosSearch specifically? >> Yeah, yeah. Yep. And, and so there's, there's many different areas, but what we found is we were able to easily consolidate data from multiple regions, into a single pane of glass to our customers. So internally and externally, you know, it relieves us of that operational support for the data extract transformation load process, right? It offered us also a seamless transition for the users, who were familiar with ElasticSearch, right? It wasn't, it wasn't difficult to move over. And so all these are a lot of selling points, benefits. And, and so now that we have all this data that we're able to, to capture and utilize, it gives us an opportunity to use machine learning, predictive analysis. And like I said, you know, driving to an event driven architecture. >> Okay. >> So that's, that's really what it's offered. And it's, it's been a huge benefit. >> So you're saying that you can speak the language of Elastic. You don't have to move the data out of an S3 bucket and you can scale more easily. Is that right? >> Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, so for us, just because we're running in multiple regions to drive more high availability, having that data available from multiple regions in a single pane of glass or a single way to utilize it, is a huge benefit as well. Just, you know, not to mention actually having the data. >> What was the initial catalyst to sort of rethink what you were doing with log analytics? Was it cost? Was it flexibility? Scale? >> There was, I think all of those went into it. One of the main drivers. So, so last year we had a huge project, so we have our ELK Stack and it's probably from a decade ago, right? And, you know, a version point oh two or something, you know, anyways, it's a very old, and we went through a whole project to get that upgraded and migrated over. And it was just, we found it impossible internally to do, right? And so this was a method for us to get out of that business, to get rid of the security risks, the support risk, and have a way for people to easily migrate over. And it was just a nightmare here, consolidating the data across regions. And so that was, that was a huge thing, but yeah, it was also been the cost, right? It was, we were finding it cheaper to use ChaosSearch and have more data available versus what we're doing currently in AWS. >> Got it. I wonder if you could, you could share maybe any stories that you have or examples that, that underscore the impact that this approach to analytics is having on your business, maybe your team's everyday activities, any, any metrics you can provide or even just anecdotal information. >> Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think, you know, one coming from an Oracle background here, so Digital River historically has been an Oracle shop, right? And we've been developing a reporting and analytics environment on Oracle and that's complicated and expensive, right? We had to use advance features in Oracle, like partitioning materialized views, and bring in other supporting software like Informatica, Hyperion, Sbase, right? And all of these required our large team with a wide set of expertise into these separate focus areas, right? And the amount of data that we were pushing at the ChaosSearch would simply have overwhelmed this legacy method for data analysis than a relational database, right? In that dimension, the human toll of, of the stress of supporting that Oracle environment, meant that a 24 by seven by 365 environment, you know, which requires little or no downtime. So, just that alone, it's a huge thing. So it's allowed us to break away from Oracle, it's allowed us to use new technologies that make sense to solve business solutions. >> I, you know, ChaosSearch is really interesting company to me. I'm sure like me, you see a lot of startups, I'm sure they're knocking on your door every day. And I always like to say, okay, where are they going after? Are they going after a big market? How are they getting product market fit? And it seems like ChaosSearch has really looked at, hard at log analytics and kind of maybe disrupting the ELK Stack. But I see, you know, other potential use cases, you know, beyond analyzing logs. I wonder if you agree, are there other use cases that you see in your future? >> Yeah, exactly. So I think there's, one area would be Splunk, for example, we have that here too. So we use Splunk versus, you know, flat file analysis or other ways to, to capture that data just because from a PCI perspective, it needs to be secured for our compliance and certification, right? So ChaosSearch allows us to do that. There's different types of authentication. Um, really a hodgepodge of authentication that we used in our old environment, but ChaosSearch has a more easily usable one, One that we could set up, one that can really segregate the data and allow us to satisfy our PCR requirements too. So, but Splunk, but I think really deprecating all of our ElasticSearch environments are homegrown ones, but then also taking a hard look at what we're doing with relational databases, right? 27 years ago, there was only relational databases; Oracle and Sequel Server. So we we've been logging into those types of databases and that's not, cost-effective, it's not supportable. And so really getting away from that and putting the data where it belongs and that was easily accessible in a secure environment and allowing us to, to push our business forward. >> Yep. When you say, where the data belongs, right? It sounds like you're putting it in the bit bucket, S3, leaving it there, because it's the the most cost-effective way to do it and then sort of adding value on top of it. That's, what's interesting about ChaosSearch to me. >> Yeah, exactly. Yup. Yup. Versus the high priced storage, you know, that you have to use for a relational database, you know, and not to mention that the standbys, the backups. So, you know, you're duplicating, triplicating all this data too in an expensive manner, so yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Copy. Create. Moving data around and it gets expensive. It's funny when you say about databases, it's true. But database used to be such a boring market. Now it's exploded. Then you had the whole no Sequel movement and Sequel, Sequel became the killer app. You know, it's like full circle, right? >> Yeah, exactly. >> Well, anyway, good stuff, Mark, really, really appreciate you coming on the Cube and, and sharing your perspectives. We'd love to have you back in the future. >> Oh yeah, no problem. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. (upbeat music) >> Okay. So that's a wrap. You know, we're seeing a new era in data and analytics. For example, we're moving from a world where data lives in a cloud object store and needs to be extracted, moved into a new data store, transformed, cleansed, structured into a schema, and then analyzed. This cumbersome and expensive process is being revolutionized by companies like ChaosSearch that leave the data in place and then interact with it in a multi-lingual fashion with tooling, that's familiar to analytic pros. You know, I see a lot of potential for this technology beyond just login analytics use cases, but that's a good place to start. You know, really, if I project out into the future, we see a trend of the global data mesh, really taking hold where a data warehouse or data hub or a data lake or an S3 bucket is just a discoverable node on that mesh. And that's governed by an automated computational processes. And I do see ChaosSearch as an enabler of this vision, you know, but for now, if you're struggling to scale with existing tools or you're forced to limit your attention because data is exploding at too rapid a pace, you might want to check these guys out. You can schedule a demo just by clicking the button on the site to do that. Or stop by the ChaosSearch booth at AWS Reinvent. The Cube is going to also be there. We'll have two sets, a hundred guests. I'm Dave Volante. You're watching the Cube, your leader in high-tech coverage.

(gentle music) >> Okay, we're back with Mark Hill who's the director of IT operations at Digital River. Mark, Welcome to "The Cube." Good to see you. >> Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. >> Hey, tell us a little bit more about Digital River, people know you as a payment platform. >> You've got marketing expertise. >> Yeah. >> How do you differentiate from other e-commerce platforms? >> Well, I don't think people realize it, but Digital River was founded about 27 years ago primarily as a one-stop shop for e-commerce, right? And so we offered site development, hosting, order management, fraud, expert controls, tax, physical and digital fulfillment as well as multilingual customer service, advanced reporting and email marketing campaigns, right? So it was really just kind of a broad base for e-commerce. People could just go there. Didn't have to worry about anything. What we found over time as e-commerce has matured, we've really pivoted to a more focused API offering specializing in just a global seller services. And to us that means payment, fraud, tax and compliance management. So our global footprint allows companies to outsource that risk management and expand their markets internationally very quickly and with the low cost of entry. >> Yeah, it's an awesome business. And, you know, to your point, you were founded way before there was such a thing as the modern cloud, and yet you're a cloud native business. >> Yeah. >> Which I think talks to the fact that incumbents can evolve, they can reinvent themselves from a technology perspective. I wonder if you could first paint a picture of how you use the cloud, you use AWS, you know, I'm sure you got S3 in there. Maybe we could talk about that a little bit. >> Yeah, exactly. So when I think of a cloud native business, you kind of go back to the history. Well, 27 years ago, there wasn't a cloud, right? There wasn't any public infrastructure. We basically started our own data center up in a warehouse. And so over our history, we've managed our own infrastructure and co-located data centers over time through acquisitions and just how things works, you know, those are over 10 data centers globally for us. For us it was expensive, well from a software, hardware perspective, as well as, you know, getting the operational teams and expertise up to speed too. And it was really difficult to maintain and ultimately not core to our business, right? Nowhere in our mission statement does it say that our goal is to manage data centers. (laughing) So, about five years ago we started the journey from our host into AWS. It was a hundred percent lift and shift plan and we were able to complete that migration a little over two years, right? Amazon really just fit for us, it was a natural, a natural place for us to land in and they made it really easy here for us to, not to say it wasn't difficult, but once in the public cloud, we really adopted a cloud first vision, meaning that we'll not only consume their infrastructure as the service, but we'll also purposely evaluate and migrate to software as a service. So, I come from a database background. So an example would be migrating from self deployed and manage relational databases over to AWS RDS, relational database service. You know, you're able to utilize the backups, the standby and the patching tools auto magically, you know, with a click of a button. And that's pretty cool. And so we moved away from the time consuming operational task and really put our resources into revenue and generating the products, you know, like pivoting to an API offering. I always like to say that we stopped being busy and started being productive. (laughing) >> I love that. >> And that's really what the cloud has done for us. >> Is that what you mean by cloud native? I mean, being able to take advantage of those primitives and native API. So what does that mean for your business? >> Yeah, exactly. I think, well, the first step for us was just to consume the infrastructure, right? But now we're looking at targeted services that they have in there too. So, you know, we have our data stream of services. So log analytics, for example, we used to put it locally on the machine. Now we're just dumping into an S3 bucket the way you're using Kinesis to consume that data and put it in elastic and go from there. And none of the services are managed by Digital River. We're just realizing the capabilities that AWS has there too. >> And as an e-commerce player, retail company, were you ever concerned about moving to AWS as a possible competitor, or did you look at other clouds? What can you tell us about that? >> Yeah, and so, I think e-commerce is really mature, right? And so we got squeezed out by the Amazons of the world. It's just not something that we were doing, but we had really a good area of expertise with our global seller services. So we evaluated Microsoft, we evaluated AWS as well as Google and, you know, back when we did that, Microsoft was Windows-based. Google was just coming into the picture, really didn't fit for what we're doing, but Amazon was just a natural fit. So, we made a business decision, right? It was financially really the best decision for us. And so we didn't really put our feelings into it, right? We just had to move forward and it's better than where we're at and we've been delighted actually. >> Yeah, makes sense, best cloud, the best tech. >> Yeah. >> You know, I want to talk about Chaos Search. A lot of people describe it as a data lake for log analytics. Do you agree with that? You know, what does that even mean? >> Yeah, well, from our perspective because the self-managed solutions are costly and difficult to maintain. You know, we had older versions of self deployed using Splunk, other things like that too. So over time, we made a conscious decision to limit our data retention in generally seven days. But in a lot of cases, it was zero. We just couldn't consume that log data because of the cost, intimidating in itself, because of this limit, you know, we've lost important data points, use for incident triage problem management, trending and other things too. So, Chaos Search has offered us a manageable and cost-effective opportunity to store months or even years of data that we can use for operations as well as trending automation. And really the big thing that we're pushing into is in the event of an architecture so that we can proactively manage our services. >> Yeah, you mentioned elastic. So I know I've talked to people who use the Elk Stack. They say, yes, this is exponential growth in the amount of data. So you have to cut it off at whatever. I think you said seven days, >> Yeah. >> Or less, you're saying you're not finding that with Chaos Search? >> Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that was one of the huge benefits here too. So, you know, we we're losing out if there was, you know, a lower priority incident for example and people didn't get to it until eight, nine days later. Well, all the bread crumbs are gone. So it was really just kind of a best guess or the incident really wasn't resolved. We didn't find a root cause. >> Yeah, like my video camera's down you know, by your other house, is that when somebody breaks in, I don't find out for two weeks and then the video's gone, kind of like same thing. >> Yeah. >> So, how do you, can you give us some more detail on how you use your data lake and Chaos Search specifically? >> Yeah, yeah. Yep and so there's many different areas, but what we found is we were able to easily consolidate data from multiple regions into a single pane of glass to our customers. So internal and externally, you know, it really does serve that operational support for the data extract transformation load process, right? It offered us also a seamless transition for the users who were familiar with elastic search, right? It wasn't difficult to move over. And so all these are a lot of selling points benefits. And so now that we have all this data that we're able to capture and utilize, it gives us an opportunity to use machine learning, predictive analysis. And like I said, you know, driving to an event driven architecture. >> Okay. >> So that's really what is offered and it's been a huge benefit. >> So you're saying you can speak the language of elastic. You don't have to move the data out of an S3 bucket and you can scale more easily. Is that right? >> Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it is so for us just because running in multiple regions to drive more high availability, having that data available from multiple regions in a single pane of glass or a single way to utilize it is a huge benefit as well, just to, you know, not to mention actually having the data. >> What was the initial catalyst to sort of rethink what you were doing with log analytics? Was it cost, was it flexibility scale? >> There was, I think all of those went into it. One of the main drivers, so last year we had a huge project, so we have our Elk Stack and it's probably from a decade ago, right? And, you know, a version point or two or something, you know, anyways, it's very old and we went through a whole project to get that upgraded and migrated over. And it was just, we found it impossible internally to do, right? And so this was a method for us to get out of that business, to get rid of the security risks and support risk and have a way for people to easily migrate over. And it was just a nightmare here consolidating the data across regions. And so that was a huge thing. But yeah, it has also been the cost, right? We're finding that cheaper to use Chaos Search and have more data available versus what we were doing currently in AWS. >> Got it, I wonder if you could share maybe any stories that you have or examples that underscore the impact that this approach to analytics, >> Yeah >> Is having on your business, maybe your team's everyday activities, any metrics you can provide, >> Yeah. >> Or even just anecdotal information? >> Yeah, yeah. And and I think, you know, one, coming from an Oracle background here, so Digital River historically has been an Oracle shop, right? And we've been developing a reporting and analytics environment on Oracle and that's complicated and expensive, right? We had to use advanced features in Oracle like partitioning materialized views and bringing other supporting software like Informatic, Hyperion, Essbase, right? And all of these require a large team with a wide set of expertise into the separate focus areas, right? And the amount of data that we were pushing at the KF search would simply have overwhelmed this legacy method for data analysis than a relational database, right? In that dimension, the human toll of the stress of supporting that Oracle environment than a 24 by seven by 365 environment, you know, which requires literal or no downtime. So just that alone, it was a huge thing. So, it's allowed us to break away from Oracle, it's allowed us to use new technologies that make sense to solve business solutions. >> You know, Chaos Search is just a really interesting company to me, I'm sure like me, you see a lot of startups. I'm sure they're knocking on your door every day. And I always like to say, "Okay, where are they going after? "Are they going after a big market? "How are they getting product market fit?" And it seems like Chaos Search has really looked that hard at log analytics and sort of maybe disrupting the Elk Stack. But I see, you know, other potential use cases, you know, beyond analyzing logs. I wonder if you agree, are there other use cases that you see in your future? >> Yeah, exactly. So, I think there's one area would be Splunk for example. We have that here too. So we use Splunk versus, you know, flat file analysis or other ways to capture that data just because from a PCI perspective, it needs to be secured for our compliance and certification, right? So Chaos Search allows us to do that. There's different types of authentication, really a hodgepodge of authentication that we used in our old environment, but Chaos Search has a more easily usable one, one that we could set up, one that can really segregate the data and allows to satisfy our PCR requirements too. But Splunk, I think really, deprecating all of our elastic search environments are homegrown ones, but then also taking a hard look at what we're doing with relational databases, right? 27 years ago, there was only relational databases, Oracle and SQL server. So we've been logging into those types of databases and that's not cost-effective, it's not supportable. And so really getting away from that and putting the data where it belongs and that is easily accessible in a secure environment and allowing us to push our business forward. >> And when you say where the data belongs, it sounds like you're putting it in the bit bucket S3, leaving it there, >> Yeah. >> And this is the most cost-effective way to do it and then sort of adding value on top of it. That's what's interesting about Chaos Search to me. >> Yeah, exactly, yup, yup versus the high price storage, you know, that you have to use for a relational database, you know, and not to mention the standbys, the backups. So, you know, you're duplicating, triplicating all this data in here too in expensive manner. So yeah. >> Yeah, copy creating, moving data around and it gets expensive. It's funny when you say about databases, it's true. But database used to be such a boring market now it's exploded. Then you had the whole no SQL movement and SQL became the killer app, you know, it's like full circle. (laughing) >> Yeah, yeah, exactly. >> Well, anyway, good stuff Mark, really, I really appreciate you coming on "The Cube" and sharing your perspectives. We'd love to have you back in the future. >> Oh yeah, yeah, no problem. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. >> Yeah, our pleasure. Okay, in a moment, I'll have some closing thoughts on getting more value out of your growing data lakes. You're watching "The Cube," you're leader in high-tech coverage. (gentle music)

(upbeat music) >> Greetings from Los Angeles, Lisa Martin here with Dave Nicholson. We are on day three of the caves wall-to-wall coverage of KubeCon CloudNativeCon North America 21. We're pleased to welcome Mark Hinkle to the program, the co-founder and CEO of TriggerMesh. Mark welcome. >> Thank you, It's nice to be here. >> Lisa: Love the name. Very interesting TriggerMesh. Talk to us about what TriggerMesh does and what, when you were founded and what some of the gaps were that you saw in the market. >> Yeah, so TriggerMesh actually the Genesis of the name is in, cloud event, driven architecture. You trigger workloads. So that's the trigger and trigger mesh, and then mesh, we mesh services together, so cloud, so that's why we're called TriggerMesh. So we're a cloud native open source integration platform. And the idea is that, the number of cloud services are proliferating. You still have stuff in your data center that you can't decommission and just wholesale lift and shift to the cloud. So we wanted to provide a platform to create workflows from the data center, to the cloud, from cloud to cloud and not, and use all the cloud native design principles, but not leave your past behind. So that's, what we do. We're, very, we were cloud, we are cloud operators and developers, and we wanted the experience to be very similar to the way that DevOps folks are doing infrastructure code and deploying that we want to make it easy to do integration as code. So we follow the same design patterns, use the same domain languages, some of those tools like Hashi corpse, Terraform, and that that's what we do and how we go about doing it. >> Lisa: And when were you guys founded? >> September, 2018. >> Oh so your young, your three years young. >> Three years it's feels like 21 >> I bet. >> And startup years it's a lot has happened, but yeah, we my co-founder and I were former early cloud folks. We were at cloud.com worked through the OpenStack years and the CloudStack, and we just saw the pattern of, abstraction coming about. So first you abstract the hardware, then you abstract the operating system. And now at with the Kubernetes container, you know, evolution, you're abstracting it up to the application layer and we want it to be able to provide tooling that lets you take full advantage of that. >> Dave: So being founded in 2018, what's your perception of that? The shift that happened during the pandemic in terms of the drive towards cloud adoption and the demands for services like you provide? >> Mark: Yeah, I think it's a mixed blessing. So we, people became more remote. They needed to enable digital transformation. Biggest thing, I think that that for us is, you know, you don't go to the bank anymore. And the banking industry is doing, you know, exponentially more remote, online transactions than in person. And it's very important. So we decided that financial services is where we were going to start with first because they have a lot of legacy architecture. They have a lot of need to move to the cloud to have better digital experiences. And we wanted to enable them to, you know, keep their mainframes online while they were still doing cutting edge, you know, mobile applications, that kind of thing. >> Lisa: And of course the legacy institutions like the BFA's the Wells Fargo, they're competing with the fintechs who are much more nimble, much more agile and able to sort of disrupt the financial services industry. Was that part of also your decision to start in financial services? >> It was a little bit of luck because we started with our network and it turned out the, you know, we saw, we started talking to our friends early on, cause we're a startup and said, this is what we're going to do. And where it really resonated was PNC bank was our, one of our first customers. You know, another financial regulatory company was another one, a couple of banks in Europe. And we, you know, as we started talking about what we were doing, that we just gravitated there because they had the, the biggest need, even though everybody has the need, their businesses are, you know, critically tied to digital transformation. >> So starting with financial services. >> It's, it's counter intuitive, isn't it? >> It was counterintuitive, but it lends credibility to any other industry vertical that you're going to approach. >> Yeah, yeah it does. It's a, it's a great, they're going to be our hardest customers and they have more at stake than a lot of like transactions are millions and millions of dollars per hour for these folks. So they don't want to play around, they, they have no tolerance for failure. So it's a good start, but it's sort of like taking up jogging and running a marathon in your first week. It's very very grilling in that sense, but it really has made us a lot better and gave us a lot of insight into the kinds of things we need to do from not just functionality, but security and that kind of thing. >> Where are you finding these customers with respect to adoption of Kubernetes? Are they leading? Are they knowing we've got to get there eventually from an infrastructure perspective? >> So the interesting thing is Kubernetes is a platform for us to deliver on, so we, we don't require you to be a Kubernetes expert we offer it as a SaaS, but what happens is that the Kubernetes folks are the ones that we end up really engaging with earlier on. And I think that we find that they're in this phase of they're containerizing their apps, that's the first step. And then they're putting them on Kubernetes and then their next step is a security and integration path. So once she, I think they call it and this is my buzzword of the show day two operations, right? So they, they get to day two and then they have a security and an integration concern before they go live. So they want to be able to make sure that they don't increase their attack face. And then they also want to make sure that this newly deployed containerized infrastructure is as well integrated as the previous, you know, virtualized or even, you know, on the server infrastructure that they had before. >> So TriggerMesh, doesn't solely work in the containerized world, you're, you're sort of you're bridging the divide. >> Mark: Yes. >> What percentage of the workloads that you're seeing are the result of modernization migration, as opposed to standing up net new application environments in Kubernetes? Do you have a sense for that? >> I think we live in a lot in the brown field. So, you know, folks that have an existing project that they're trying to bridge to it versus the Greenfield kind of, you know, the, the huge wins that you saw in the early cloud days of the Netflix and the Twitter's Dwayne scale. Now we're talking to the enterprises who have, you know, they have existing concerns. So I would say that it's, it's mostly people that are, you know, very few net new projects, unless it's a modernization and they're getting ready to decommission an old one, which is. >> Dave: So Brownfield financial services. You just said, you know, let's just, let's just go after that. >> You know, yeah. I mean, we had this dart forward and we put up buzzwords, but no, it was, it was actually just, and you know, we're still finding our way as far as early on where we're open source folks. And we did not open source from day one, which is very weird when everybody's new, your identity is, you know, I worked, I was the VP of marketing for Linux foundation and no JS and all these open source projects. And my co-founder and I are Apache committers. And our project wasn't open yet because we had to get to the point where it could be open and people could be productive in the use and contribution. And we had to staff up engineers. And now I think this week we open-sourced our entire platform. And I think that's going to open up, you know, that's where we started because it was not necessarily the lowest hanging fruit, but the profitable, less profitable, lowest hanging fruit was financial services. Now we are letting our code out into the wild. And I think it'll be interesting to see what comes back. >> So you just announced that this week TriggerMesh integration platform as an open source project here at KubeCon, what's been some of the feedback? >> It's all been positive. I haven't heard anything negative. We did it, so we're very, very, there's a very, the culture around open source is very tough. It's very critical if you don't do it right. So I think we did a good job, we used enough, we used a OSI approved. They've been sourced, licensed the Apache software, a V2 license. We hired someone who was well-respected in the DevREL world from a chef who understands the DevOps sort of culture methodologies. We staffed up our engineers who are going to be helping the free and open source users. So they're successful and we're betting that that will yield business results down the road. >> Lisa: And what are the two I see on your website, two primary use cases that you guys support. Can you dig into details on that? >> So the first one is sort of a workflow automation and a really simple example of that is you have a, something that happens in one cloud. So for example, you take a picture on your phone and you upload it and it goes to Amazon and there is a service that wants to identify what's in that picture. And once you put it on the line and the internship parlance, you could kick off a workflow from TensorFlow, which is artificial intelligence to identify the picture. And there isn't a good way for clouds to communicate from one to the other, without writing custom blue, which is really what, what we're helping to get rid of is there's a lot of blue written to put together cloud native applications. So that's a workflow, you know, triggering a server less function is the workflow. The other thing is actually breaking up data gravity. So I have a warehouse of data, in my data center, and I want to start replicating some portion of that. As it changes to a database as a service, we can based on an event flow, which is passive. We're not, we're not making, having a conversation like you would with an API where there's an event stream. That's like drinking from the fire hose and TriggerMesh is the nozzle. And we can direct that data to a DBaaS. We can direct that data to snowflake. We can direct that data to a cloud-based data lake on Microsoft Azure, or we can split it up, so some events could go to Splunk and all of the events can go to your data lake or some of those, those things can be used to trigger workloads on other systems. And that event driven architecture is really the design pattern of the individual clouds. We're just making it multi-cloud and on-prem. >> Lisa: Do you have a favorite customer example that you think really articulates that the value of that use case? >> Mark: Yeah I think a PNC is probably our, well for the, for the data flow one, I would say we have a regular to Oracle and one of their customers it was their biggest SMB customer of last year. The Oracle cloud is very, very important, but it's not as tool. It doesn't have the same level of tooling as a lot of the other ones. And to, to close that deal, their regulatory customer wanted to use Datadog. So they have hundreds and hundreds of metrics. And what TriggerMesh did was ingest the hundreds and hundreds of metrics and filter them and connect them to Datadog so that, they could, use Datadog to measure, to monitor workloads on Oracle cloud. So that, would be an example of the data flow on the workflow. PNC bank is, is probably our best example and PNC bank. They want to do. I talked about infrastructure code integration is code. They want to do policy as code. So they're very highly regulatory regulated. And what they used to do is they had policies that they applied against all their systems once a month, to determine how much they were in compliance. Well, theoretically if you do that once a month, it could be 30 days before you knew where you were out of compliance. What we did was, we provided them a way to take all of the changes within their systems and for them to a server less cluster. And they codified all of these policies into server less functions and TriggerMesh is triggering their policies as code. So upon change, they're getting almost real-time updates on whether or not they're in compliance or not. And that's a huge thing. And they're going to, they have, within their first division, we worked with, you know, tens of policies throughout PNC. They have thousands of policies. And so that's really going to revolutionize what they're able to do as far as compliance. And that's a huge use case across the whole banking system. >> That's also a huge business outcome. >> Yes. >> So Mark, where can folks go to learn more about TriggerMesh, maybe even read about more specifically about the announcement that you made this week. >> TriggerMesh.com is the best way to get an overview. The open source project is get hub.com/triggermesh/trigger mesh. >> Awesome Mark, thank you for joining Dave and me talking to us about TriggerMesh, what you guys are doing. The use cases that you're enabling customers. We appreciate your time and we wish you best of luck as you continue to forge into financial services and other industries. >> Thanks, it was great to be here. >> All right. For Dave Nicholson, I'm Lisa Martin coming to you live from Los Angeles at KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 21, stick around Dave and I, will be right back with our next guest.

>>from the bellagio hotel in Las Vegas >>it's the >>cube >>covering Ui >>Path Forward four brought to you >>by Ui Path. >>Welcome back to las Vegas. The cube is live with you. I Path forward four at the bellagio lisa martin with Dave Volonte. We're gonna be talking about you I Path integration suite, we have a couple of guests joining us here. Mark Jeannie is here the GM of Ui Path, formerly the co founder and Ceo of cloud elements and Peter Villeroy also joins us Director of Global I. T. Automation practice at UI Path guys welcome to the program. >>Thanks lisa. Great to hear. >>So Mark, let's go ahead and start with you. The Cloud elements acquisition was done in about the last six months. Talk to us about why you chose to be acquired by Ui Path and where things are today. Some big announcements yesterday. >>Yeah absolutely. So yeah if you go back six months ago um you know we have been in conversations with you I Path for for quite a while and um you know as we were looking at our opportunities as an api integration platform. So cloud elements just to step back a little bit um was a leader in helping companies take a P. I. S integrate applications together and bed that into their into their apps and um you know I Path approached us about the combination of what's happening in the automation world and you know these these have been a society as the marine Fleming from I. D. C. Mentioned this morning integration and DARPA have been separate swim lanes and what we saw and what you I. Path approaches with was ability to combine these together and really be the first company to take and take ui automation and seamlessly connected together with A. P. I. Automation or api integration >>Peter What's been some of the feedback? We know you guys are more than 9000 customers strong now we've had a whole bunch of amount yesterday and today. What's been the feedback so far on the cloud elements acquisition? So >>there's a huge amount of interest. We've had very positive feedback on that lisa the combination of Ui driven automation and A. P. I. Uh Native Integrations is is key especially to the I. T. Leadership that I work with. Um some of whom have traditionally compartmentalized you ipads platform in the Ui space and legitimately think about their own internal processes as being having very little to do with the user interface right. And so combining Ui driven automation together with uh api integration really helps too pick them up where they are and show them the power of that kind of a hyper automation platform that can deliver value in a number of spaces. And you guys ever >>see the movie Blindside? All right. You know what I'm talking about with joe. Theismann gets hit from the blind side and then his career is over and and that's when people realized oh my gosh the left tackle for right handed quarterback is so important and it's subsequent drafts when somebody would pick a left tackle like a good left all the rest went and that's what's happening in in the automation business today. You guys took the lead, you you set the trend. People said wow this is actually going to be a huge market. And then now we're seeing all this gonna occur. And a lot of it from these big software companies who believe every dollar of software should go to them saying hey we can actually profit from this within our own vertical stacks. So what do you make of all the M. And A. That's going on in particular? There was one recently where private equity firm is mashing together a long time R. P. A vendor with a long time integration firm. So it looks like you guys, you know on the right >>side of history in this regard. Your thoughts. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean if you think about automation right you've got to obviously help people do their jobs better. But if you're going to automate a process and a department you needed connect the applications that they use that those people use otherwise you can't accomplish it. And where ap is fit in as is automation and ui automation has become more and more mission critical and it's become bigger and bigger part of enterprise I. T. Wants to get involved. And so enterprise gets involved and what's their stack. It's api based their technology stack is how you connect back is through api so more and more companies are seeing what you I path saw is that if you're gonna automate every process and every department for every person you need to connect to every application that they're using and that's why this is now becoming right. Three companies now just recently have done these types of acquisitions of bringing an integration platform in and combining them together are trying to combine them together. >>All mps are not created equally as we know. Some are sort of half baked lot of them. Many of them don't have decent documentation so there's sort of a spectrum there. How do you, how do you think about prioritizing? How do you think about the landscape? Do you just kind of ignore the stuff that's not well documented and eventually that will take care of itself. How should we think about there have always >>been layers of integration right. Especially working with the ICTy organizations. So you've got our native integrations would make it easy to drag and drop activities and then you've got the A. P. I. Is that we can consume with various activities. That area has really grown through the acquisition of cloud elements and then you've got that third layer where when all else fails, you go on to the user interface and interact with the application like a human does and what you see is that our our interaction with college elements really enables a great enhancement of that lower base level um which is mildly interesting to the lines of business very important. I Yeah, for sure. >>So the reason I asked that question is I was talking to one of your customers this big ASAP customers said I love you ipad. The problem I have is I got so many custom mods and so it's just you know orally documented and I can't I wanna put automation in there but I can't. So to those parts of the tech stack become like the main frame of you know what I mean? And just sort of they live there and they just keep doing their thing but there's so much innovation that pops up around it. How do you how do you see that? >>Well that's part of the agility that comes with the platform like you ipads is that you can interact with the very clean uh swagger documented restful aPI s and you can interact with SCP on their proprietary ages old A. P. I. S. Um Those are things that we've traditionally done decently well, but again through this acquisition we could do that on a grander scale um with bidirectional triggering and all the goodness that you >>solve that problem today that your customer and this is a couple of years ago, you can solve that problem with cloud elements. Is that right? >>Yeah, absolutely. The the ability to integrate too these enterprise platforms like ASAP you need multiple tools to do the job. Right. So ui automation is great but if you've customized ui significantly or other things like that then the A. P. I can be a great structure for it and other cases where um that api provides a resiliency in a in a scale to it that um opens up new processes as well to those corporate systems. Right? So the balance of being able to bring these two worlds together is where you can unlock more because you got >>east west automation >>that's very good overhead and now >>you're going north south with cloud elements is deeper. Right, >>bottom line from the VP of its point of view, the more that can be done from a machine to machine communication the better. So sure. >>What's the opportunity for the existing cloud elements customers to take advantage of here? >>Yeah, absolutely. Um We've continued to support, brought our customers over with us. Uh Part of our customer base has actually been a significant number of software customers. Uh cos S. A. P. S. One of them doc you sign gain site, you know, so household names in the world of software as well as large financial services institutions like US Bank and Capital One and american Express, all of them had that common need where um they wanted to have an api centric approach to being able to connect to customers and partners and leverage our platform to do that. So we will continue to support that extend that. But we see opportunities where again we couldn't automate everything for our customers just threw a PS And uh you know for example one of our major financial services institutions were working with wants to take um and provide a robot for their uh customers and commercial payments to be able to automatically kick off in A. P. I. And so that seamless integration where we can combine that automation with robots leveraging and kicking off a P. I. S automatically takes us further into automating those processes for those >>customers. So you guys six months right. Uh talk about how that integration api integration company better gone smoothly. But what was that like you guys are getting the knack of M and a talk about that, what you learn maybe what you would do differently to even accelerate further, How'd it go? Uh >>That's the best answer from you having been on the >>acquisition side. Um Well we how well it went is six months later, which I think is really unheard of in the technology world, we're introducing our combined offering you I Path integration service that essentially takes what cloud elements built embeds it right into automation. Cloud studio in the Ui Path products. We and uh it's been a global effort. Right? So we had the Ui Path team was based in Hyderabad Denver and Dallas and then we've got um Ui Path engineers working with that cloud elements team that are in Bucharest Bellevue and bangalore and with the miracles of zoom and uh that type of thing, never meeting anyone in person, we were able to integrate the product together and launch it here today >>six months is a fast turnaround time frame was how much of that was accelerated by the, by the fact of the global situation that we're in. >>Yeah, well you know in some respects that that helped right? Because we um um we didn't have to waste time traveling and we could hop on zoom calls instantly. We spent a lot of time even over zoom making sure there was a cultural fit. You I path has a, you know, not only the humble, bold and type of values but it's a very collaborative environment, very open and collaborative environment as Brent can attest to. And that collaboration, I think in that spirit of collaboration really helped us feel welcome and move quickly to pull this together. And also >>the necessity is the mother of innovation right. Uh you ipad traditionally being popular in the CFOs organization were becoming the C I O s best friend and the timing was right to introduce this kind of capability to combine with what we traditionally do well and really move into their picking up like I said the customer where they are and leading them into that fully end to end automation capability and this was integral. So it wasn't time to kick the tires but to get moving >>and my right, there's a governance play here as well because I. T. Is kind of generally responsible for governance if you make it easier for them to whatever governance systems they're using >>governance privacy >>security that now you can just connect. They don't have to rip and replace. Is there an angle there? >>Sure, yeah. So nothing is more important than I. T. Than than control and governments and change management and half of the uh conversations we're having out there on the floor are around that right um uh ensuring that all of the good governance is in place um and we have a lot of the uh integrations and frameworks necessary to help that through your devops pipeline and doing proper ci cd and test automation um and you know introducing that integration layer in addition to what we already have just helps all of that to uh move more smoothly and bring more value to our customers. >>Mark talk to me about some of the feedback from customers that you mentioned, doc Watson. S A P probably I imagine joint customers with you. I path now there you're working together, what's the what's in it for them? >>Yeah, no the feedback has been tremendous. Right, so um api automation is not new to you. I path but customers have been asking for more capability. So one of them is in that governance area that we were just talking about, right, the ability to create connections centrally enable them disable them. Right? You got mission critical corporate applications. You want to be able to make sure that those applications are being controlled and monitored. Right? So that was one aspect. And by bringing this as a cloud based service, we can accomplish that. Um the other area is that this eventing capability, the ability to kick off workflows and processes based on changes to corporate applications, a new employees added in workday. I want to kick off a process to onboard that new employee and that triggered eventing service has been really well received and then um yeah, so that I'd say with the ability to also create new connections more simply was the third big factor. Uh we created a standardized authentication service. So no matter where you are in the UI Path product line, you get a consistent way to create a new connection, whether it's a personal connection by a business user too, you know, google docs or Microsoft office or your C O E R I T. Creating a connection to uh an important corporate system. >>How about the partner? I know you guys had partner day here leading into forward for they must be stoked about this gives you a lever to even add new partners. What was those >>conversations like? Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. The partners are excited about those same features but um they're also excited about something in our roadmap which we expect to be previewing early next year and that's a connector builder. So the ability for partners to uh more quickly than ever create their own connectors. That'll work just like first party connectors that we ui Path build and add them into catalogs, share them in the market place. So there's new revenue opportunities, new opportunities for partners to create reusable assets that they can leverage and yeah so um lots of things, lots of work to continue to do, right? It's only been six months and uh but that's that's gonna be a big initiative going forward. >>So integration service as you mentioned, announced at this conference, we know that that's the first step obviously accomplished as we also talked about very quickly in a six month time period. But what does the future hold for api automation and integration service? >>So um one of the key areas just continue to expose the integration service um more broadly in the Ui Path product portfolio. Now that we have this service, more Ui Path products will be able to leverage it. Right? We're starting off with studio and orchestrator but that we can all use and share that common common capability. Um The other is to make access to complex business systems easier. So you think about it right. A uh to get a purchase order from net suite might take five or six api calls to do. Well, a citizen developer doesn't know what those five or six things you have to do. So we'll be creating these business activities or just get me open purchase orders that will work seamlessly in the studio product. And behind the scenes. Well, chain together those 56 aPI calls to make that a simple process. Right? So taking the integration service and making it even more powerful tool for that citizen developer than nontechnical user as well. So that's >>development work you're going to do. >>That's what we're gonna do as well as enable partners to do as well. So it's a key part of our road map over time. Because >>yeah I mean the partner pieces key because when net suite changes how it you're creating that abstraction layer. So but that's value add for the partners. >>Absolutely. And they have that domain expertise, right. They can create assets, leveraging the UI path automation capabilities but also bring their knowledge about A. S. A. P. Or workday and those oracle ebs and those core business systems and then combine that together into assets that enhance integration service that they build and I can I can share with their customers and share with our market >>because the work workday developer is going to know about that well ahead of time. No, >>it's coming and they know better than we do. Right. That's their business. That's what they know really well. >>Nice nice value at opportunity, peter >>One of the things that you iPad has been known for is its being very and I've said this on the program the last two days, that's being a good use case for land and expand. You guys have 70% of revenue that comes from existing customers. Talk to me about the cloud elements acquisition as a facilitator of because you kind of mentioned, you know, we're used to be really in bed with the cfos now we're going to see us and we've heard from a number of your customers where they started in finance and it's now Enterprise White, how is this going to help facilitate that? Even more? >>It really helps, you know, touching on what Mark just mentioned about the citizen developer, right, just as one of many examples, the empowerment of end users to automate things for themselves um is critical to that land and expand um successes that we've been seeing and where from an I. T standpoint, the frustration with the citizen developer is, you know, maybe what they're building isn't so top notch right? It works for themselves. What we can't replicate that, but put making it easy to make api integration part of what they do in studio X is so key to enhancing also the reusability of what's coming out of there. So that c uh C O E S can replicate that across teams are globally within their organization and that's part of land and expand because you may find something that's valuable in one line of business replicates easily into another line of business if the tool set is in place >>pretty powerful model lisa >>it is guys. Thanks so much for joining us today, talking about the club elements acquisition, what you're uh, doing with integration service, What's to come the opportunities in it for both sides and your partners? We appreciate your time. >>Great. Thank you. Thank you very much. I >>appreciate it. Thank you for >>David Want I'm lisa martin. You're watching the cube live in las Vegas at the bellagio Ui Path forward for stick around. We'll be right back. Yeah. Mhm. Mhm mm.

>>Hello and welcome back to the cubes live coverage of A W. S. Public sector summit. I'm john Kerry hosting CUBA. We're live in Washington D. C. For two days, an actual event with an expo floor with real people face to face and of course we're streaming it digitally on the cube and cube channels. And so our next guest, Mark Francis chief digital health integration officer Electronic caregiver, Mark great to see you tech veteran and former intel back in the day. You've seen your ways of innovation. Welcome to the cube. >>Thanks so much. It's a pleasure to be here. >>So we were talking before we came on camera about all the innovation going back in the computer industry but now with health care and delivery of care telemedicine and how the structural systems are changing and how cloud is impacting that. You guys have an interesting solution on AWS that kind of, to me connect the dots for many tell us what you guys do and take us through the product. >>Sure. Happy to do so uh our company is electronic caregiver were actually founded back in 2009. We're based in Los cruces new Mexico so off the grid. Um but since that time we have been spending a lot of time and money doing foundational R and D pilots and product development work. Really say how do you bridge that chasm between the doctor's office and the patient home in a way that you can put a patient facing device and equipment in a patient's home that's going to drive high level of engagement, obtain actionable curated data that's presented out to caregivers and the caregivers can then act upon that to help direct and deliver high quality care. >>So basically is the future of medicine, >>the future of medicine. Right. Right. We look at medicine, we look at the future of medicine as being a hybrid model of in person care plus remote care. And we really see ourselves at the epicenter of providing a platform to help enable that. >>You know the big story here at the public sector. Some and we've been reporting on a digitally for the previous year is the impact the pandemic has had on the industry and and not just normal disruption, you know technology and start ups, disruption happens, structural changes being forced upon industries by the force majeure. That is the pandemic education, health care and so video and data and connected oriented systems are now the thing structurally that's changing it. That's causing all kinds of business model, innovations and challenges. Yeah. What's your take on that? Because this is real. >>Yeah. It is real. It it's funny that this is actually my third digital health company. Um First one was in in uh Silicon Valley early remote patient monitoring company. We end up selling it to bosh uh when I joined intel to be part of our digital health group, we did that for five years and ended a joint venture with G. E. So people have been playing around in remote patient monitoring telehealth for some time until the pandemic though there wasn't really a strong business model to justify scaling of these businesses. Um uh the pandemic change that it forced adoption and force the government to allow reimbursement coach as well. And as a result of that we've seen this pure if aeration of different product offering service offerings and then payment models around telehealth broadly speaking >>well since you started talking the music started cranking because this is the new music of the industry, we're here on the expo floor, we have face to face conversations going on and uh turn the music down. Hey thanks guys, this is a huge thing and I want to uh highlight even further what is the driver for this? Because is it, I mean actually clouds got some benefits but as you guys do the R. And D. What's going on with what's the key drivers for medicine? >>Yeah, I would take two things from a from a technology perspective, the infrastructure is finally in place to enable this type of charity distance before that it really wasn't there now that's there and the products that folks are used are much more affordable about the provider's side and the patient side. The main driver is um uh there's a lot of underlying trends that were happening that we're just being ignored Whether it was 50% non adherence to treatment plans, massive medication mismanagement um lack of professional and informal caregivers, all those things were kind of happening underneath the surface and then with Kobe, it all hit everybody in the phase. People started using telehealth and then realize, hey, we can deliver high quality care, we can deliver value based care mixed with a hybrid model of tele care plus patient care. And it turned out that, that, that works out well. So I think it's now a realization that tell care not only connects patients but solve some of these other issues around adherents, compliance, staffing and a number of other >>things and that this is a structural change we were talking about. Exactly. All right, So talk about amazon, what do you guys are doing on AWS? How's that all work? >>That's working out great. So as we, as we launch at a 2.0, we built it on 24 foundational aws and Amazon services. It's a serverless architecture, um, uh, which is delivered. What enables us to do is we have a whole bunch of different patients facing devices which we now integrate all into one back end through which we can run our data analytics are machine learning and then present curated actual data to the providers on top of that. We've also been developing a virtual caregiver that's really, really innovative. So we're using the unity engine to develop a very, very realistic virtual caregiver that is with the patient 24 hours a day in their home, they develop a relationship with that individual and then through that they can really drive greater you know more intimate care plan and a more intimate relationship with their human caregivers that's built using basic technology behind Alexa pauline lacks as well as IOT core and a lot of other ai ml services from from amazon as well. >>Not to get all nerdy and kind of seeking out here because under the hood it's all the goodness of amazon. We've got a server list, you got tennis is probably in there doing something who knows what's going on there, You've got polly let's do this and that but it also highlights the edge the ultimate network edges the human and if you've got to care for the patient at home or wherever on the run whatever. Yeah you got to get the access to the data so yeah I can imagine a lot of monitoring involved too. Yeah can you take us through how that works? >>Yeah and for us we like to talk about intelligence as opposed to data because data for data sakes isn't actionable. So really what can we do through machine learning and artificial intelligence to be able to make that data more actionable before the human caregiver because you're never going to take a human out of the equation. Uh But uh we had a lot of data inputs, they're both direct data inputs such as vital signs, we also get subtle data input. So with our with our uh with Addison or virtual caregiver uh the product actually come to the camera away from intel called the real sense cameras. And with that we get to see several signs of changes in terms of gate which might be in the indicative of falls risk of falls. We can see body temperature, pulse, heart rate, signs of stress, lack of sleep. Maybe that's a sign of uh adverse reaction to a new medication. There's a bunch of different direct and indirect inputs. We can take run some analysis against and then say hey there's something here you might want to look at because it might be indicating a change in health. >>So this is where the innovation around these bots and ai come in because you're essentially getting pattern matching on other signals you already know. So using the cameras and or sensors in to understand and get the patients some signaling where they can maybe take action call >>fun or Yeah, that's exactly. And the other thing we get, we get to integrate information related to what are called social determinants of health. So there's a whole body of research now showing that 65% of someone's health is actually driven by non clinical issues. So again issues of food security, transportation, access to care, mental health type issues in terms of stress and stuff like we can start gathering some of that information to based upon people's behaviors or for you to assessments which can also provide insights to help direct care. >>So maybe when I'm doing the Cuban reviews, you guys can go to work and look at me. I'm stressed out right now, having a great time here public sector, this is really cool. So take a minute to explain the vision. What does this go from here? I'll see low hanging fruit, telemedicine, check data, observe ability for patient for optimizing care, check what happens next industry disruption, what how these dominoes have been kind of fall? >>Yeah, for us uh we really are seeing more providers and more payers system. Integrators looking now to say how do I put together a comprehensive solution from the doctor's office to inpatient hospital to home that can remove it. A lot of barriers to care addi which is our platform is designed to be interoperable to plug into electronic health care systems, whether it's Cerner, Epic or Athenahealth, whatever it might be to be able to create that you pick us seamless platform for provider to use. We can push all of the data to their platform if they want to use that or they could use our platform and dashboard as well. We make it available to healthcare providers but also a lot of people are trying to age in place and they're getting treated by private duty providers, senior housing providers and other maybe less clinical caregivers. But if you're there every day with somebody you can pick up signs which might prevent a major health episode down the road. So we want to close that circle our our vision is how do we close the circle of care so that people get the right information at the right time to deliver the right >>care. So it's kind of a health care stack of a new kind of stack. So I have to ask you if there was an eye as pass and sass category um infrastructure as a service platform as a service. And then says it sounds like you guys are kind of combine the lower parts of the stack and enable your partners to develop on top of. Is that how it >>works? Yes it does. Yeah. Yeah. So with addie, the interesting thing that we've done it's designed to have open a P. I. For a lot of modules as well. So if we're working with the american Heart Association and we want to do a uh cardiac care module from using their I. P. We could do that if we want to integrate with Uber health or lift we could do that as well if we want to do something in the amazon and pill pack, it's a plug in that we could do that. So if I'm a patient or or a loved one at home instead of going to 10 different places or use our platform and then pull up four different apps. Everything can be right there at their fingertips. You can either do it by touch or you can use this voice because it's all a voice or a touch of interaction. >>So just because I'm curious and and and for clarification, the idea of going past versus SAS platform versus software as a service is why flexibility or customization? Why not go SAS and be a SAS application? >>Uh we've talked mostly about, we've we've gone back and forth platform as a service or infrastructure as a service. So that's more the debate that we've had. It's more about the scalability that we can offer. Um uh not just in the United States, but globally as well. Um and really that's really the thing that we've been looking at, especially because there's so many different sources of data, if you want to provide high quality care that needs to be integrated. We want to make sure that we created a platform, not just for what we provide but for what others in the environment can provide. >>So you really want to enable other people to create that very much layer on top of you guys, do you have out of the box SAS to get people going or is that just >>With the release of adding 2.0, now we do. So now folks go to our website and they contact our development those tools and and those libraries are available. >>Now, this is an awesome opportunity. So for people out there who are wanting to innovate on you, they can just say, okay, I'll leverage your the amazon web services of healthcare essentially. >>That's a nice bold ambitious statement. Yeah, but I mean kind of but if we if we can achieve that, then we'd be quite happy and we think the industry, you're gonna partner >>benefit of that. It's an ecosystem play. Exactly, yeah. It's kind of like. >>Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And for us, what we do covert is a perfect example going back to that. So when Covid hit um were based in las cruces, new Mexico last winter lost crew system to el paso and overwhelmed. They're at capacity. Different health care systems came to us, they asked if we partner with them to deliver a basically a triage program for folks that were coming into the er with Covid. So we designed a Kobe at home programs. So you get diagnosed, get a kit, go home and using telehealth virtual visits, remote monitoring. Be able to stay healthy at home without doing community spread. And by making sure that you were being watched over by a care professionals 24 hours a day. We did that um worked with 300 people Malcolm would all of them said healthy. We were able to expand uh inpatient capacity by 77%. We saved the system over $6 million in in three months. We've now been asked and we're actually replicating that in Memphis now and then also we've been asked to do so down in Mississippi >>mark, great conversation. Uh real quick. I only I don't have much time left but I want to ask you, does this mean that we're gonna see a clip of proliferation of in home kind of devices to assist? >>Yeah, we will. Uh, what we've seen is a big pivot now towards hospital at home model of care. So you have providers saying, you know, I'll see you in my facility but also extend capabilities so I can see you and treat you at home as well. We've also seen a realization that telehealth is more than a than an occasional video visit because if all you're doing is replacing an occasional in person visit with an occasional video visit. You're not really changing things now. There's a whole different sensors ai other integrations that come together to be able to enable these different models >>for all the business school folks out there and people who understand what's going on with structural change. That's when innovation really changes. Yeah, this is structural change. >>Absolutely. >>Mark, thanks for coming on. Mark Francis chief Digital Health Integration Officer Electronic Caregiver here on the Q. Thanks. Coming >>on. Thank you. My pleasure. >>Okay, more coverage after this short break. I'm john Kerry, your host Aws public Sector summit, We'll be right back mm mm mm

>>Welcome back to the cubes coverage of AWS storage. They were here in downtown Seattle, crisp downtown Seattle. Winter is coming we're to talk about the snow unintended and also the ever expanding cloud, the cloud it's in a way it's like the universe, it's moving out to the edge and to the data center, which is literally another edge node. If you think about it, Mark Curry is here as the general manager of AWS gateway and Sid Roy is the GM of AWS snow family. Folks. Welcome. Good to see you. Thank you. So mark, talk about how you think about on-prem and hybrid. >>That's an excellent question, Dave. So I represent a group of services called storage gateway, and that's exactly what storage gateway does. Is it bridges your on-prem applications with the cloud? And the way we do that is we deliver it with really four services that we all call it. We call it gateway is the first one being volume gateway. And what volume gateway does is give you a way to connect your block storage on prem with the cloud for file shares for backup is what popular application there. And, uh, for applications that can tolerate some latency and that's a traditional service, then we, uh, came out with something called virtual tape gateway, which I'm personally really excited about because we all know about, you know, the big clunky tapes that have been around for 50 years, that you have to have trucks pick up and go store in a mountain and all that, um, with the virtual tape gateway, what we can do is we all have our gateways install either as a software package on-prem or as an appliance hardware appliance, but we put the tape gateway on prem and the customer is able to back up their tapes to us. >>And we look like a tape drive, virtual tape dry. So what we're doing is we're allowing the customer to basically digitize in the cloud, all of their legacy tapes. And this I think is a huge industry and we've got some great customers there. One would be formula one. Um, they've used virtual tape library. Our gateway to, um, basically could reduce the recovery time from five days down to one. So big impact there. Uh, the next gateway is our file gateway. And what I felt gateway does, again, sits on-prem either the software package or as a hardware appliance and fell gateway exposed as both an SMB share for Microsoft traffic and then an NFS share for your NFS traffic. And basically what we do as we front end S3 with this gateway. And so the gateway caches, so your active workflow gets really great performance, but you can move your inactive data to the cloud in S3, uh, where you've got durable storage. >>It's, you know, it's over multiple regions. You can run all of our analytics on that, on that data as well. Um, a good example, there would be modernize. A company worked on the COVID vaccine. They used storage gateway the file version to move their instrumentation and scientific data into the cloud, where once it's up in S3 week, you know, we've got a really robust set of tools, allow them to do analytics on it. And then finally, but not least our last announcement was something called FSX gateway and FSX is a chemical product. So we offer FSX as a windows file system or file share in the cloud. Um, the, the gateway basically acts as a cache to that. So a customer can put our FSX gateway on prem in lieu of like a server of some sort, and we'll cash all the traffic for that active workflow again, and then push their inactive data back to the FSX file system in the cloud. >>Cool. Lots of ways to get data to the cloud compatibility >>Issues. So, excellent. Thank you for that. Mark said, >>We know about snowball snowcones snowmobile all the snows, where does that fit >>In? Yeah. So let me, let me talk about the AWS edge. First, the broader edge spectrum of AWS spans many things from snow to outpost, to IOT, where there's a lot of data being created at the edge within this edge spectrum. There's the rugged mobile edge, which is where snow plays, right? So snow's purpose is really to capture transform and optionally move the data from rugged edge to AWS, right? And in our portfolio we have different devices. Uh, so let me start with the stone device. We announced last year in 2020, uh, snow cone is a small, uh, tissue box sized device. You know, it, it, it is portable. It's highly mobile, portable, rugged. It can, it can capture data from rugged sensory and end points and industrial equipment. And once we capture the data, you can process the data locally right there. And then if you have to send the data back to AWS, you can ship the device back or use data sync to transfer the data back at VWs. >>Now, if you have higher compute needs, where you have what we call the core edge, where it's not portable, but you need to kind of process there. We have the snowball edge device now that can be single known or multi-node snowball edge devices in groups of clusters for storage at storage edge compute. There, you can process like large scale data capture and transform it right there with, you know, machine learning or other data management and analytics right there for real time and AI based edge local decisions. So I'll give you a couple of examples in each category. So for snowcones, for example, we are partnering with Facebook to deliver, uh, private, LTE based, uh, networks for, uh, remote and rural areas where the connectivity is not here there. Right? So, so, uh, we are serving those communities in partnership with Facebook to deliver private LTE networks. The second example I'll give you is with the snowball edge device, that multiple nodes, we, us air force recently demonstrated, uh, that ABM a system, which is the advanced battle management system, where they can do like a lot of data capture and local simulation with AI and ML on containers, right on the snow cone, uh, on the snowball edge devices. So those are two examples of how we're doing, uh, edge local processing and capture. >>Well, I think, I think you guys got it right. You got a lot of ways to get data on the on-ramps into the cloud, but I I'm particularly struck by your edge. You know, we didn't get into the it strategy, but the idea of processing locally, bringing machine learning, uh, you know, cause the future we think anyway is AI and for instance, where the data lives, right. And yet, like you said, if you want to bring it back and bring it back and we have ways to get it back. Right, exactly. I'll give you guys the last word. >>Well, I, I would just say, you know, our FSX gateways of relatively new announcement, it's got some really cool applications for, um, high-performance Microsoft applications, but also for remote offices that want to share files. >>Great. Well guys, mark said, thanks so much for coming on the cube. Thank you for sharing the insights and the data and really appreciate it. Okay. Thank you for watching. This is the cubes coverage of AWS storage day. Keep it right there.

(gentle upbeat music) >> People hate to be sold, but they love to buy. We become what we think about, think, and grow rich. If you want to gather honey, don't kick over the beehive. The world is replete with time-tested advice and motivational ideas for aspiring salespeople, Dale Carnegie, Napoleon Hill, Norman Vincent Peale, Earl Nightingale, and many others have all published classics with guidance that when followed closely, almost always leads to success. More modern personalities have emerged in the internet era, like Tony Robbins, and Gary Vaynerchuk, and Angela Duckworth. But for the most part, they've continued to rely on book publishing, seminars, and high value consulting to peddle their insights and inspire action. Welcome to this video exclusive on theCUBE. This is Dave Vellante, and I'm pleased to welcome back Professor Mark Roberge, who is one of the Managing Directors at Stage 2 Capital, and Paul Fifield, who's the CEO and Co-Founder of Sales Impact Academy. Gentlemen, welcome. Great to see you. >> You too Dave and thanks. >> All right, let's get right into it. Paul, you guys are announcing today a $4 million financing round. It comprises $3 million in a seed round led by Stage 2 and a million dollar in debt financing. So, first of all, congratulations. Paul, why did you start Sales Impact Academy? >> Cool, well, I think my background is sort of two times CRO, so I've built two reasonably successful companies. Built a hundred plus person teams. And so I've got kind of this firsthand experience of having to learn literally everything on the job whilst delivering these very kind of rapid, like achieving these very rapid growth targets. And so when I came out of those two journeys, I literally just started doing some voluntary teaching in and around London where I now live. I spend a bunch of time over in New York, and literally started this because I wanted to sort of kind of give back, but just really wanted to start helping people who were just really, really struggling in high pressure environments. And that's both leadership from sense of revenue leadership people, right down to sort of frontline SDRs. And I think as I started just doing this voluntary teaching, I kind of realized that actually the sort of global education system has done is a massive, massive disservice, right? I actually call it the greatest educational travesty of the last 50 years, where higher education has entirely overlooked sales as a profession. And the knock-on consequences of that have been absolutely disastrous for our profession. Partly that the profession is seen as a bit sort of embarrassing to be a part of. You kind of like go get a sales job if you can't get a degree. But more than that, the core fundamental within revenue teams and within sales people is now completely lacking 'cause there's no structured formal kind of like learning out there. So that's really the problem we're trying to solve on the kind of like the skill side. >> Great. Okay. And mark, always good to have you on, and I got to ask you. So even though, I know this is the wheelhouse for you and your partners, and of course, you've got a deep bench of LPs, but lay out the investment thesis here. What's the core problem that you saw and how are you looking at the market? >> Yeah, sure, Dave. So this one was a special one for me. We've spoken in the past. I mean, just personally I've always had a similar passion to Paul that it's amazing how important sales execution is to all companies, nevermind just the startup ecosystem. And I've always personally been motivated by anything that can help the startup ecosystem increase their success. Part of why I teach at Harvard and try to change some of the stuff that Paul's talking about, which is like, it's amazing how little education is done around sales. But in this particular one, not only personally was I excited about, but from a fun perspective, we've got to look at the economic outcomes. And we've been thinking a lot about the sales tech stack. It's evolved a ton in the last couple of decades. We've gone from the late '90s where every sales VP was just, they had a thing called the CRM that none of their reps even used, right? And we've come so far in 20 years, we've got all these amazing tools that help us cold call, that help us send emails efficiently and automatically and track everything, but nothing's really happened on the education side. And that's really the enormous gap that we've seen is, these organizations being much more proactive around adopting technology that can prove sales execution, but nothing on the education side. And the other piece that we saw is, it's almost like all these companies are reinventing the wheel of looking in the upcoming year, having a dozen sales people to hire, and trying to put together a sales enablement program within their organization to teach salespeople sales 101. Like how to find a champion, how to develop a budget, how to develop sense of urgency. And what Paul and team can do in the first phase of essay, is can sort of centralize that, so that all of these organizations can benefit from the best content and the best instructors for their team. >> So Paul, exactly, thank you, mark. Exactly what do you guys do? What do you sell? I'm curious, is this sort of, I'm thinking in my head, is this E-learning, is it really part of the sales stack? Maybe you could help us understand that better. >> Well, I think this problem of having to upscale teams has been around like forever. And kind of going back to the kind of education problem, it's what's wild is that we would never accept this of our lawyers, our accountants, or HR professionals. Imagine like someone in your finance team arriving on day one and they're searching YouTube to try and work out how to like put a balance sheet together. So it's a chronic, chronic problem. And so the way that we're addressing this, and I think the problem is well understood, but there's always been a terrible market, sort of product market fit for how the problem gets solved. So as mark was saying, typically it's in-house revenue leaders who themselves have got massive gaps in their knowledge, hack together some internal learning that is just pretty poor, 'cause it's not really their skillset. The other alternative is bringing in really expensive consultants, but they're consultants with a very single worldview and the complexity of a modern revenue organization is very, very high these days. And so one consultant is not going to really kind of like cover every topic you need. And then there's the kind of like fairly old fashioned sales training companies that just come in, one big hit, super expensive and then sort of leave again. So the sort of product market fit to solve, has always been a bit pretty bad. So what we've done is we've created a subscription model. We've essentially productized skills development. The way that we've done that is we teach live instruction. So one of the big challenges Andreessen Horowitz put a post out around this so quite recently, one of the big problems of online learning is that this kind of huge repository of online learning, which puts all the onus on the learner to have the discipline to go through these courses and consume them in an on-demand way is actually they're pretty ineffective. We see sort of completion rates of like 7 to 8%. So we've always gone from a live instruction model. So the sort of ingredients are the absolute very best people in the world in their very specific skill teaching live classes just two hours per week. So we're not overwhelming the learners who are already in work, and they have targets, and they've got a lot of pressure. And we have courses that last maybe four to like 12 hours over two to sort of six to seven weeks. So highly practical live instruction. We have 70, 80, sometimes even 90% completion rates of the sort of live class experience, and then teams then rapidly put that best practice into practice and see amazing results in things like top of funnel, or conversion, or retention. >> So live is compulsory and I presume on-demand? If you want to refresh you have an on demand option? >> Yeah, everything's recorded, so you can kind of catch up on a class if you've missed it, But that live instruction is powerful because it's kind of in your calendar, right? So you show up. But the really powerful thing, actually, is that entire teams within companies can actually learn at exactly the same pace. So we teach it eight o'clock Pacific, 11 o'clock Eastern, >> 4: 00 PM in the UK, and 5:00 PM Europe. So your entire European and North American teams can literally learn in the same class with a world-class expert, like a Mark, or like a Kevin Dorsey, or like Greg Holmes from Zoom. And you're learning from these incredible people. Class finishes, teams can come back together, talk about this incredible best practice they've just learned, and then immediately put it into practice. And that's where we're seeing these incredible, kind of almost instant impact on performance at real scale. >> So, Mark, in thinking about your investment, you must've been thinking about, okay, how do we scale this thing? You've got an instructor component, you've got this live piece. How are you thinking about that at scale? >> Yeah, there's a lot of different business model options there. And I actually think multiple of them are achievable in the longer term. That's something we've been working with Paul quite a bit, is like, they're all quite compelling. So just trying to think about which two to start with. But I think you've seen a lot of this in education models today. Is a mixture of on-demand with prerecorded. And so I think that will be the starting point. And I think from a scalability standpoint, we were also, we don't always try to do this with our investments, but clearly our LP base or limited partner base was going to be a key ingredient to at least the first cycle of this business. You know, our VC firm's backed by over 250 CRO CMOs heads of customer success, all of which are prospective instructors, prospective content developers, and prospective customers. So that was a little nicety around the scale and investment thesis for this one. >> And what's in it for them? I mean, they get paid. Obviously, you have a stake in the game, but what's in it for the instructors. They get paid on a sort of a per course basis? How does that model work? >> Yeah, we have a development fee for each kind of hour of teaching that gets created So we've mapped out a pretty significant curriculum. And we have about 250 hours of life teaching now already written. We actually think it's going to be about 3000 hours of learning before you get even close to a complete curriculum for every aspect of a revenue organization from revenue operations, to customer success, to marketing, to sales, to leadership, and management. But we have a development fee per class, and we have a teaching fee as well. >> Yeah, so, I mean, I think you guys, it's really an underserved market, and then when you think about it, most organizations, they just don't invest in training. And so, I mean, I would think you'd want to take it, I don't know what the right number is, 5, 10% of your sales budget and actually put it on this and the return would be enormous. How do you guys think about the market size? Like I said before, is it E-learning, is it part of the CRM stack? How do you size this market? >> Well, I think for us it's service to people. A highly skilled sales rep with an email address, a phone and a spreadsheet would do really well, okay? You don't need this world-class tech stack to do well in sales. You need the skills to be able to do the job. But the reverse, that's not true, right? An unskilled person with a world-class tech stack won't do well. And so fundamentally, the skill level of your team is the number one most important thing to get right to be successful in revenue. But as I said before, the product market for it to solve that problem, has been pretty terrible. So we see ourselves 100%. And so if you're looking at like a com, you look at Gong, who we've just signed as a customer, which is fantastic. Gong has a technology that helps salespeople do better through call recording. You have Outreach, who is also a customer. They have technologies that help SDRs be more efficient in outreach. And now you have Sales Impact Academy, and we help with skills development of your team, of the entirety of your revenue function. So we absolutely see ourselves as a key part of that stack. In terms of the TAM, 60 million people in sales are on, according to LinkedIn. You're probably talking 150 million people in go to market to include all of the different roles. 50% of the world's companies are B2B. The TAM is huge. But what blows my mind, and this kind of goes back to this why the global education system has overlooked this because essentially if half the world's companies are B2B, that's probably a proxy for the half of the world's GDP, Half of the world's economic growth is relying on the revenue function of half the world's companies, and they don't really know what they're doing, (laughs) which is absolutely staggering. And if we can solve that in a meaningfully meaningful way at massive scale, then the impact should be absolutely enormous. >> So, Mark, no lack of TAM. I know that you guys at Stage 2, you're also very much focused on the metrics. You have a fundamental philosophy that your product market fit and retention should come before hyper growth. So what were the metrics that enticed you to make this investment? >> Yeah, it's a good question, Dave, 'cause that's where we always look first, which I think is a little different than most early stage investors. There's a big, I guess, meme, triple, triple, double, double that's popular in Silicon Valley these days, which refers to triple your revenue in year one, triple your revenue in year two, double in year three, and four, and five. And that type of a hyper growth is critical, but it's often jumped too quickly in our opinion. That there's a premature victory called on product market fit, which kills a larger percentage of businesses than is necessary. And so with all our investments, we look very heavily first at user engagement, any early indicators of user retention. And the numbers were just off the charts for SIA in terms of the customers, in terms of the NPS scores that they were getting on their sessions, in terms of the completion rate on their courses, in terms of the customers that started with a couple of seats and expanded to more seats once they got a taste of the program. So that's where we look first as a strong foundation to build a scalable business, and it was off the charts positive for SIA. >> So how about the competition? If I Google sales training software, I'll get like dozens of companies. Lessonly, and MindTickle, or Brainshark will come up, that's not really a fit. So how do you think about the competition? How are you different? >> Yeah, well, one thing we try and avoid is any reference to sales training, 'cause that really sort of speaks to this very old kind of fashioned way of doing this. And I actually think that from a pure pedagogy perspective, so from a pure learning design perspective, the old fashioned way of doing sales training was pull a whole team off site, usually in a really terrible hotel with no windows for a day or two. And that's it, that's your learning experience. And that's not how human beings learn, right? So just even if the content was fantastic, the learning experience was so terrible, it was just very kind of ineffective. So we sort of avoid kind of like sales training, The likes of MindTickle, we're actually talking to them at the moment about a partnership there. They're a platform play, and we're certainly building a platform, but we're very much about the live instruction and creating the biggest curriculum and the broadest curriculum on the internet, in the world, basically, for revenue teams. So the competition is kind of interesting 'cause there is not really a direct subscription-based live like learning offering out there. There's some similar ish companies. I honestly think at the moment it's kind of status quo. We're genuinely creating a new category of in-work learning for revenue teams. And so we're in this kind of semi and sort of evangelical sort of phase. So really, status quo is one of the biggest sort of competitors. But if you think about some of those old, old fashioned sort of Miller Heimans, and then perhaps even like Sandlers, there's an analogy perhaps here, which is kind of interesting, which is a little bit like Siebel and Salesforce in the sort of late '90s, where in Siebel you have this kind of old way of doing things. It was a little bit ineffective. It was really expensive. Not accessible to a huge space of the market. And Salesforce came along and said, "Hey, we're going to create this cool thing. It's going to be through the browser, it's going to be accessible to everyone, and it's going to be really, really effective." And so there's some really kind of interesting parallels almost between like Siebel and Salesforce and what we're doing to completely kind of upend the sort of the old fashioned way of delivering sort of sales training, if you like. >> And your target customer profile is, you're selling to teams, right? B2B teams, right? It's not for individuals. Is that correct, Paul? >> Currently. Yeah, yeah. So currently we've got a big foothold in series A to series B. So broadly speaking out, our target market currently is really fast growth technology companies. That's the sector that we're really focusing on. We've got a very good strong foothold in series A series B companies. We've now won some much larger later stage companies. We've actually even won a couple of corporates, I can't say names yet, but names that are very, very, very familiar and we're incredibly excited by them, which could end up being thousand plus seat deals 'cause we do this on a per seat basis. But yeah, very much at the moment it's fast growth tech companies, and we're sort of moving up the chain towards enterprise. >> And how do you deal with the sort of maturity curve, if you will, of your students? You've got some that are brand new, just fresh out of school. You've got others that are more seasoned. What do you do, pop them into different points of the curriculum? How do you handle it? >> Yeah we have, I'll say we have about 30 courses right now. We have about another 15 in development where post this fundraise, we want to be able to get to around about 20 courses that we're developing every quarter and getting out to market. So we're literally, we've sort of identified about 20 to 25 key roles across everything within revenue. That's, let's say revenue ops, customer success, account management, sales, engineering, all these different kinds of roles. And we are literally plotting the sort of skills development for these individuals over multiple, multiple years. And I think what we've never ceases to amaze me is actually the breadth of learning in revenue is absolutely enormous. And what kind of just makes you laugh is, this is all of this knowledge that we're now creating it's what companies just hope that their teams somehow acquire through osmosis, through blogs, through events. And it's just kind of crazy that there is... It's absolutely insane that we don't already exist, basically. >> And if I understand it correctly, just from looking at your website, you've got the entry level package. I think it's up to 15 seats, and then you scale up from there, correct? Is it sort of as a seat-based license model? >> Yeah, it's a seat-based model, as Mark mentioned. In some cases we sell, let's say 20 or $30,000 deal out the gate and that's most of the team. That will be maybe a series A, series B deal, but then we've got these land and expand models that are working tremendously well. We have seven, eight customers in Q1 that have doubled their spend Q2. That's the impact that they're seeing. And our net revenue retention number for Q2 is looking like it's going to be 177% to think exceeds companies like Snowflakes. Well, our underlying retention metrics, because people are seeing this incredible impact on teams and performance, is really, really strong. >> That's a nice metric compare with Snowflake (Paul laughs) It's all right. (Dave and Paul laugh) >> So, Mark, this is a larger investment for Stage 2 You guys have been growing and sort of upping your game. And maybe talk about that a little bit. >> Yeah, we're in the middle of Fund II right now. So, Fund I was in 2018. We were doing smaller checks. It was our first time out of the gate. The mission has really taken of, our LP base has really taken off. And so this deal looks a lot like more like our second fund. We'll actually make an announcement in a few weeks now that we've closed that out. But it's a much larger fund and our first investments should be in that 2 to $3 million range. >> Hey, Paul, what are you going to do with the money? What are the use of funds? >> Put it on black, (chuckles) we're going to like- (Dave laughs) >> Saratoga is open. (laughs) (Mark laughs) >> We're going to, look, the curriculum development for us is absolutely everything, but we're also going to be investing in building our own technology platform as well. And there are some other really important aspects to the kind of overall offering. We're looking at building an assessment tool so we can actually kind of like start to assess skills across teams. We certify every course has an exam, so we want to get more robust around the certification as well, because we're hoping that our certification becomes the global standard in understanding for the first time in the industry what individual competencies and skills people have, which will be huge. So we have a broad range of things that we want to start initiating now. But I just wanted to quickly say Stage 2 has been nothing short of incredible in every kind of which way. Of course, this investment, the fit is kind of insane, but the LPs have been extraordinary in helping. We've got a huge number of them are now customers very quickly. Mark and the team are helping enormously on our own kind of like go to market and metrics. I've been doing this for 20 years. I've raised over 100 million myself in venture capital. I've never known a venture capital firm with such value add like ever, or even heard of other people getting the kind of value add that we're getting. So I just wanted to a quick shout out for Stage 2. >> Quite a testimony of you guys. Definitely Stage 2 punches above its weight. Guys, we'll leave it there. Thanks so much for coming on. Good luck and we'll be watching. Appreciate your time. >> Thanks, Dave. >> Thank you very much. >> All right, thank you everybody for watching this Cube conversation. This is Dave Vellante, and we'll see you next time.