>>Hi, everyone. Welcome to the cubes presentation of the AWS startup showcase the theme. This episode is data as code, and this is season two, episode two of the ongoing series covering exciting startups from the ecosystem in cloud and the future of data analytics. I'm your host, John furry. You're getting great featured panel here with AWS heroes, Lynn blankets, the CEO of Lindbergh Lega consulting, Peter Hanson's, founder of cloud Cedar and Alex debris, principal of debris advisory. Great to see all of you here and, uh, remotely and look forward to see you in person at the next re-invent or other event. >>Thanks for having us. >>So Lynn, you're doing a lot of work in healthcare, Peter you're in the middle of all the action as data as code Alex. You're in deep on the databases. We've got a good round up of, of topics here ranging from healthcare to getting under the hood on databases. So as we'll start with you, what are you working on right now? What trends do you see in the database space? >>Yeah, sure. So I do, uh, I do a lot of consulting work working with different people and, you know, often with, with dynamo DB or, or just general serverless technology type stuff. Um, if you want to talk about trends that I'm seeing right now, I would say trends you're seeing as a lot, just more serverless native databases or cloud native databases where you're seeing these cool databases come out that really take advantage of, uh, this new cloud environment, right? Where you have scalability, you have plasticity of the clouds. So you're not having, you know, instant space environments anymore. You're paying for capacity, you're paying for throughput. You're able to scale up and down. You're not managing individual instances. So a lot of cool stuff that we're seeing, you know, um, with this new generation of, of infrastructure and in particular database is taking advantage of this, this new cloud world >>And really lot deep into the database side in terms of like cloud native impact, diversity of database types, when to use certain databases that also a big deal. >>Yeah, absolutely. I like, I totally agree. I love seeing the different types of databases and, you know, AWS has this whole, uh, purpose-built database strategy. And I think that, that makes a lot of sense. Um, you know, I want to go too far with it. I would, I would more think about purpose-built categories and things like that, you know, specialize in an OLTB database within your, within your organization, whether that's dynamo DB or document DB or relational database Aurora or something like that. But then also choose some sort of analytics database, you know, if it's drew it or Redshift or Athena, and then, you know, if you have some specialized needs, you want to show some real time stuff to your users, check out rock site. If you want to, uh, you know, do some graph analytics, fraud detection, checkout tiger graph, a lot of cool stuff that we're seeing from the startup showcase here. >>Looking forward to unpacking that Lynn you've been in love now, a healthcare action with cloud ops, the pandemic pushes hard core on everybody. What are you working on? >>Yeah, it's all COVID data all the time. Uh, before the pandemic, I was supporting research groups for cancer genomics, which I still do, but, um, what's, uh, impactful is the explosive data volumes. You know, when you there's big data and there's genomic data, you know, I've worked with clients that have broken data centers, broken public cloud provider data centers because of the daily volume they're putting in. So there's this volume aspect. And then there's a collaboration, particularly around COVID research because of pandemic. And so you have this explosive volume, you have this, um, need for, uh, computational complexity. And that means cloud the challenge is it, you know, put the pedal to the metal. So you've got all these bioinformatics researchers that are used to single machine. Suddenly they have to deal with distributed compute. So it's a wild time to be in this space. >>What was the big change that you've seen with the, uh, the pandemic and in genomic cloud genomic specifically what's the big change has happened. >>The amount of data that is being put into the public cloud, um, previously people would have their data on their local, uh, capacity, and then they would publish their paper and the data may or may not become available for, uh, reproducing the research, uh, to accelerate for drug discovery and even variant identification. The data sets are being pushed to public cloud repositories, which is a whole new set of concerns. You have not only dealing with the volume and cost, but security, you know, there's federated security is non-trivial and not well understood by this domain. So there's so much work available here. >>Awesome. Peter, you're doing a lot with the data as a platform kind of view and platform engineering data as code is, is something that's being kicked around. What are you working on and how does platform engineering change as data becomes so much more prevalent in its value proposition? >>Yeah. So I'm the founder of cloud Cedar and, um, we sort of built this company out, this consultancy all around the challenges that a lot of companies have got with getting their data sorted, getting it organized, getting it ready for other use cases, such as analytics and machine learning, um, AI workloads and the like. So typically a platform engineering team will look after the organization of a company infrastructure, making sure that it's coherent across the company and a data platform, engineering teams doing something similar in that sense where they're, they're looking at making sure that, uh, data teams have a solid foundation to build upon, uh, that everything's quite predictable and what that enables is a faster velocity and the ability to use data as code as a way of specifying and onboarding data, building that, translating it, transforming it out into its specific domains and then on to data products. >>I have to ask you while you're here. Um, there's a big trend around data meshes right now. You're hearing, we've had a lot of stuff on the cube. Um, what are practical that people are using data mesh, first of all, is it relevant and how are people looking at this data mesh conversation? >>I think it becomes more and more relevant, uh, the bigger the organization that you're dealing with. So, you know, often times in the enterprise, you've got, uh, projects with timelines of five to 10 years often outlasting technology life cycles. The technology that you're building on is probably irrelevant by the time that you complete it. And what we're seeing is that data engineering teams and data teams more broadly, this organizational bottleneck and data mesh is all about, uh, breaking down that, um, bottleneck and decentralizing the work, shifting that work back onto, uh, development teams who oftentimes have got more of the context and a centralized data engineering team. And we're seeing a lot of, uh, Philocity increases as a result of that. >>It's interesting. There's so many different aspects of how data is changing the world. Lynn talks about the volume with the cloud and genomics. We're hearing data engineering at a platform level. You're talking about slicing and dicing and real-time information. You mentioned rock set, Alex. So I'd like to ask each of you to answer this next question, which is how has the team dynamics changed with data engineering because every single company's impacted. So if you're researchers, Lynn, you're pumping more data into the cloud, that's got a little bit of data engineering to it. Do they even understand that is that impacting them? So how has data changed the responsibilities or roles in this new emerging area of data engineering or whatever you want to call it? Lynn, we'll start with you. What do you, what do you see this impact? >>Well, you know, I mean, dev ops becomes data ops and ML ops and, uh, you know, this is a whole emergent area of work and it starts with an understanding of container technologies, which, you know, in different verticals like FinTech, that's a given, right, but in bioinformatics building an appropriately optimized Docker container is something I'm still working with customers now on because they have the concept of a Docker container is just a virtual machine, which obviously it isn't, or shouldn't be. So, um, you have, again, as I mentioned previously, this humongous skill gap, um, concepts like D, which are prevalent in ad tech FinTech, that's not available yet for most of my customers. So those are the things that I'm building. So the whole ops space is, um, this a wide open area. And really it's a question of practicality. Um, you know, I have, uh, a lot of experience with data lakes and, you know, containerizing and using the data lake platform. But a lot of my customers are going to move to like an interim pass based solutions. If they're using spark, for example, they might use to use a managed spark solution as an interim, um, step up to the cloud before they build their own containers. Because the amount of knowledge to do that effectively is non-trivial >>Peter, you mentioned data, you mentioned data lakes, onboarding data into lake house architectures, for instance, something that you're familiar with. Um, this is not obvious to some verticals obvious to others. What do you see this data engineering impact from a personnel standpoint? And then ultimately how things get built, >>You know, are you directing that to me, >>Peter? >>Yeah. So I think, um, first and foremost, you know, the workload that data engineering teams are dealing with is ever increasing. Usually there's a 10 X ratio of, um, software engineers to data engineers within a business and usually double the amount of analysts to data engineers again. And so they're, they're fighting it ever increasing backload. And, uh, so they're fighting an ever increasing backlog of, of, uh, tasks to do and tickets to, to, to churn through. And so what we're seeing is that data engineering teams are becoming data platform engineering teams where they're building capability instead of constantly hamster wheels spinning if you will. And so with that in mind, with onboarding data into, uh, a Lakehouse architecture or a data lake where data engineering teams, uh, uh, getting wins is developing a very good baseline of structure where they're getting the categorization, the data tagging, whether this data is of a particular domain, does it contain some, um, PII data, for instance, uh, and, and, and, and then the security aspects, and also, you know, the mechanisms on which to do the data transformations, >>Alex, on the database side, those are known personas in an enterprise, a them, the database team, but now the scale is so big. Um, and there's so much going on in databases. How does the data engineering impact organizations from your standpoint? >>Yeah, absolutely. I think definitely, you know, gone are the days where you have a single relational database that is serving operational queries for your users, and you can also serve analytics queries, you know, for your internal teams. It's, it's now split up into those purpose-built databases, like we've said. Uh, but now you've got two different teams managing it and they're, they're designing their data model for different things. You know? So L LLTP might have a more de-normalized model, something that works for very fast operations and it's optimized for that, but now you need to suck that data out and get it elsewhere so that your, your PM or your business analyst, or whoever can crunch through some of that. And, you know, now it needs to be in a more normalized format. How do you sort of bridge that gap? That's a tough one. I think you need to, you know, build empathy on each side of, of what each side is doing and, and build the tools to say, Hey, this is going to help you, uh, you know, LLTP team, if we know what, what users are actually doing, and, and if you can get us into the right format there, so that then I can, you know, we can analyze it, um, on the backend. >>So I think, I think building empathy across those teams is helpful. >>When I left to come back to, you mentioned a health and informatics is coming back. Um, but it's interesting, you know, I look at a database world and you look at the solutions that are out there. A lot of companies that build data solutions don't have a data problem. They've never, they're not swimming in a lot of data, but then you look at like the field that you're working in right now with the genomics and health and, and quantum, they're always, they're dealing with data all the time. So you have people who deal with a lot of data all the time are breaking through New Zealand. People who are don't have that experience are now becoming data full, right? So people are now either it's a first time problem, or they've always been swimming in a ton of data. So it's more of what's the new playbook. And then, wow, I've never had to deal with a lot of data before. What's your take? >>It's interesting. Cause they know, uh, bioinformatics hires, um, uh, grad students. So grad students, you know, use their, our scripts with their file on their laptop. And so, um, to get those folks to understand distributed container-based computing is like I said, a not non-trivial problem. What's been really interesting with the money pouring in to COVID research is when I first started, some of the workflows would take, you know, literally 500 hours and that was just okay. And coming out of FinTech, I was, uh, I could, I was blown away like FinTech is like, could that please take a millisecond rather than a second? Right. And so what has now happened, which makes it, you know, like I said, even more fun to work in this domain is, uh, the research dollars have really gone up because of the pandemic. And so there are, there are, there's this blending of people like me with more of a big data background coming into bioinformatics and working side by side. >>So it's this interesting sort of translation because you have the whole taxonomy of bioinformatics with genomics and sequencers and all the weird file types that you get. And then you have the whole taxonomy of dev ops data ops, you know, containers and Kubernetes and all that. And trying to get that into pipelines that can actually, you know, be efficient, given the constraints. Of course, we, on the tech side, we always want to make it super optimized. I had a customer that we got it down from 500 hours to minutes, but they wanted to stay with the past solution because it was easier for them to go from 500 hours to five hours was good enough, but you know, the techies want to get it down to five minutes. >>This is, this is, we've seen this movie before dev ops, um, edge and op operations, you know, IOT, world scenes, the convergence of cultures. Now you have data and then old, old school operations kind of coming up. So this kind of supports the thesis. That data as code is the next infrastructure as code. What do you guys, what's the reaction there for you guys? What do you think about that? What does data's code mean? If infrastructure's code was cloud and dev ops, what is data as code? What does that mean? >>I could take it if you like. I think, um, data teams, organizations, um, have been long been this bottleneck within the organization and there's like this dark matter of untapped energy and potential waiting to be unleashed a data with the advent of open source projects like DBT, um, have been slowly sort of embracing software development, lifecycle practices. And this is really sort of seeing a, a big steep increase in, um, in their velocity. And, and this is only going to increase and improve as we're seeing data teams, um, embrace starter as code. I think it's, uh, the future is bright for data. So I'm very excited. >>Lynn Peter reaction. I mean, agility data is code is developer concept CICB pipeline. You mentioned it new operational workflows coming into traditional operations reaction. >>Yeah. I mean, I think Peter's right on there. I'd say, you know, some of those tools we're seeing come in from, from software, like, like DBT, basically giving you that infrastructure as code, but applied to that data realm. Also there have been a few, like get for data type things, pack a derm, I believe is one and a few other ones where you bring that in and you also see a lot of immutability concepts flowing into the data realm. So I think just seeing some of those software engineering concepts come over to the data world has, has been pretty interesting >>What we'll literally just versioning datasets and the identification of what's in a data set. What's not in a data set. Some of this is around ethical AI as well, um, is a whole, uh, area that has come out of research groups. Um, mostly AI research groups, but is being applied to medical data and needs to be obviously, um, so this, this, this, um, metadata and versioning around data sets is really, I think, a very of the moment area. >>Yeah, I think we, we, you guys are bringing up a really good kind of direction that's happening in data. And that is something that you're seeing on the software side, open source and now dev ops. And now going to data is that the supply chain challenges of we've been talking about it here on the cube and this, this, um, this episode is, you know, we've seen Ukraine war, but some open source, you know, malware hitting datasets is data secure. What is that going to look like? So you starting to get into this what's the supply chain, is it verified data sets if data sets have to be managed a whole nother level of data supply chain comes up, what do you guys think about that? >>I'll jump in. Oh, sorry. I'll jump in again. I think that, you know, there's, there's, um, some, some of the compliance requirements, um, around financial data are going to be applied to other types of data, probably health data. So immutability reproducibility, um, that is, uh, legally required. Um, also some of the privacy requirements that originated in Europe with GDPR are going to be replicated as more and more, um, types of data. And again, I'm always going to speak for health, but there's other types as well coming out of personal devices and that kind of stuff. So I think, you know, this idea of data as code is it's, it goes down to versioning and controlling and, um, that's, uh, that's sort of a real succinct way to say it that we didn't used to think about that. We just put it in our, you know, relational database and we were good to go, but, um, versioning and controlling in the global ecosystem is kind of, uh, where I'm focusing my efforts. >>It brings up a good question. If databases, if data is going to be part of the development process has to be addressable, which means horizontally scalable. That means it has to be accessible and open. How do you make that work and not foreclose it with a lot of restrictions? >>I think the use of data catalogs and appropriate tagging and categorization, you know, I think, you know, everyone's heard of the term data swamp, and I think that just came about because that everyone saw like, oh, wow, S3, you know, infinite storage. We just, you know, throw whatever in there for as long as we want. And I think at times, you know, the proliferation of S3 buckets, um, and the like, you know, we've just seen, uh, perhaps security, not maintained as well as it could have been. And I think that's kind of where data platform engineering teams have really sort of, uh, come into the, for, you know, creating a governance set of buckets like formation on top. But I think that's kind of where we need to see a lot more work with appropriate tags and also the automatic publishing of metadata into data catalogs so that, um, folks can easily search and address particular data sets and also control the access. You know, for instance, you've got some PII data, perhaps really only your marketing folks should be looking at email addresses and the like not perhaps your finance folks. So I think, you know, there's, there's a lot to be leveraged there in formation and other solutions, >>Alex, let's back up and talk about what's in it for the customer, right. Let's zoom back and saying reality is I just got to get my data to make sure it's secure always on and not going to be hackable. And I just got to get my data available on river performance. So then, then I got to start thinking about, okay, how do I intersect it? So what should teams be thinking about right now as I look up all their data options or databases across their enterprise? >>Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a good question. I just, you know, I think Peter made some good points there and you can think of history as sort of ebbing and flowing between centralization and decentralization a lot of times. And you know, when storage was expensive, data was going to be sort of centralized and Maine maintained, sort of a, you know, by the, uh, the people that are in charge of it. But then when, when S3 comes along, it really decreases storage. Now we can do a lot more experiments on it. We can store a lot more of our data, keep it around and do different things on it. You know, now we've got regulations again, we were, we gotta, we gotta be more realistic about, about keeping that data secure and make sure we're, we're doing the right things with it. So it's, we're gonna probably go through a period of, of centralization as we work out some of this tooling around, you know, tagging and, and ethical AI that, that both Peter. And when we're talking about here and maybe get us into that, that next wearable world of de-centralization again. But I, I think that ebb and flow is going to be natural in response to, you know, the problems of the, the other extreme, >>Where are we in the market right now from progress standpoint, because data lakes don't want to be data swamps. You seeing lake formation as a data architecture, as an example, where are we with customers? What are they doing right now? Where would you put them in the progress bar of, of evolution towards the Nirvana of having this data sovereignty? And this data is code environment. Are they just now in the data lake store, everything real-time and historical? >>Well, I can jump in there. Um, SQL on files is the, is the driver. And so we know when Amazon got Athena, um, that really drove a lot of the customers to really realistically look at data lake technologies, but data warehouses are not going away. And the integration between the two is not seamless. No, we, we are partners with AWS, but we don't work for them. So we can tell you the truth here. Um, there's, there's work to it, but it really, for my customers, it really upped the ante around data lake, uh, because Athena and technologies like that, the serverless, um, SQL queries or the familiar quarry, um, uh, libraries really drove a movement away from either OLTB or OLAP, more expensive, more cumbersome structures, >>But they still need that. Oh, LTP, like if they have high latency issues, they want to be low latency. Can they have the best of both worlds? That's the question. >>I mean, I w I would say we're getting, you know, we're getting closer. We're always going to be, uh, you know, that technology is going to be moving forward, and then we'll just move the goalpost again, in terms of, of what we're asking from it. But I think, you know, the technology that's getting out there, you can get, get really well. And then, you know, just what I work in the dynamo DB world. So you can get really great low latency. So, you know, single digit millisecond LLTP response times on that. I think some of the analytics stuff has been a problem with that. And there, there are different solutions out there to where you can export dynamo to S3, and then you can be doing SQL on your FA your files with Athena Lakeland's talking about, or now you see, you know, rock set of partner here that that'll just ingest your dynamo, DB data, you know, make all those changes. So if you're doing a lot of, uh, changes to your data and dynamo is going to reflect in Roxanna, and then you can do analytics queries, you can do complex filters, different things like that. So, you know, I, I think we continue to push the envelope and then we moved the goalpost again. But, um, you know, I think we're in a, a lot better place than we were a few years ago, for sure. >>Where do you guys see this going relative to the next level? If data as code becomes that next agile, um, software defined environment with open source? Well, all of these new tools with serverless things happening with data lakes are built in with nice architectures with data warehouses, where does it go next? What happens next? If this becomes an agile environment, what's the impact? >>Well, I don't want to be so dominant, but I have, I feel strongly, so I'm going to jump in here. So, so I, um, I feel like, you know, now for my, my, my most computationally intensive workloads, I'm using GPS, I'm bursting to GPU for TensorFlow neural networks. So I've been doing quite a bit of exploration around Amazon bracket for QPS and it's early. Um, and it's specialty. It's not, you know, for everybody. And the learning curve again is pretty daunting, but, um, there are some use cases out there. I mean, I got ahold of a paper where some people did some, um, it was a Q CNN, um, quantum convolutional neural network for lung cancer images, um, from COVID patients and the, the, uh, the QP Hugh, um, algorithm pipeline performed more accurately and faster. So I think, um, bursting to quantum is something to pay attention to. >>Awesome. Peter, what's your take on what's next? >>Well, I think there's still, um, that, that was absolutely fascinating from Lynn, but I think also there's, there's, uh, you know, some more sort of low-level, uh, low-hanging fruit available in, in the data stack. I think there's a lot of, there's still a lot of challenges around the transformation there, getting our data from sort of raw landed data into business domains, and that sort of talks to a lot of what data mesh is all about. I think if we can somehow make that a little more frictionless, because that that's really where the like labor intensive work is. That's, that's kinda dominating, uh, data engineering teams and where we're sort of trying to push that, that workload back onto, um, you know, software engineering teams. >>Alice will give you the final word. What's the impact. What's the next step? What's it look like in the future? >>Yeah, for sure. I mean, I've never had the, uh, breaking a data center problem that wind's had, or the bursting the quantum problem, for sure. But, you know, if you're in that, you know, the pool I swim and of terabytes of data and below and things like that, I think it's a good time. It just like we saw, you know, like we were talking about dev ops and, and pushing, uh, you know, allowing software engineers to handle more of, of the operation stuff. I think the same thing with data can happen where, you know, software engineering teams can handle not just their code, not just, you know, deploying and operating it, but also thinking about their data around the code. And that doesn't mean you won't have people assist you within your organization. You won't have some specialists in there, but I think pushing more stuff, even onto the individual development teams where they have ownership of that. And they're thinking about it through all this different life cycle. I mean, I'm pretty bullish on that. And I think that's an exciting development >>Was that shift, what left with left is security. What does that mean to >>Shipped so much stuff left, but now, you know, the things that were at the end are back at the end again, but, uh, you know, at least we think we can think about that stuff early in the process, which is good, >>Great conversation, very provocative, very realistic and great impact on the future data as code is real, the developers I do believe will have a great operational role and the data stack concept and impacting things like quantum, it's all kind of lining up nicely. Um, and it's a great opportunity to be in this field from a science and policy standpoint. Um, data engineering is legit. It's going to continue to grow and thanks for unpacking that here on the queue. Appreciate it. Okay. Great panel D AWS heroes. They work with AWS and the ecosystem independently out there. They're in the trenches doing the front lines, cracking the code here with data as code season two, episode two of the ongoing series of the 80, but startups I'm John for your host. Thanks for watching.

>>Good morning from Los Angeles, Lisa Martin here at Qube con cloud native con north America, 2021. This is the cubes third day, a wall-to-wall coverage. So great to be back at an event in person I'm excited to be joined by Vince Wang, senior director of products at 49. We're going to talk security and Kubernetes then welcome to the program. >>Thank you for having me. >>So I always love talking to 40 minutes. Cybersecurity is something that is such an impersonal interest of mine. The fording that talks about the importance of integrating security and compliance and the dev sec ops workflow across the container life cycle. Why is this important and how do you help companies achieve it? >>Well, as companies are making digital innovations, they're trying to move faster and as to move faster, or many companies are shifting towards a cloud native approach, uh, rapid integrations, rapid development, and rapid deployment, uh, but sometimes speed, you know, there's a benefit to that, but there's also the downside of that, where, you know, you can lose track of issues and you can, uh, introduce a human error in a problem. So as part of the, as part of the, the, the means to deliver fast while maintaining his six year approach, where both the company and the organizations delivering it and their end customers, it's important to integrate security throughout the entire life cycle. From the moment you start planning and development, and people's in process to when you're developing it and then deploying and running in production, um, the entire process needs to be secured, monitored, and, um, and vetted regularly with good quality, um, processes, deep visibility, and an integrated approach to the problem. Um, and I think the other thing to also consider is in this day and age with the current situation with COVID, there's a lot of, uh, development of employment in terms of what I call NASA dental Baltic cloud, where you're deploying applications in random places, in places that are unplanned because you need speed and that, uh, diversity of infrastructure and diversity of, uh, of clouds and development and things to consider then, uh, produces a lot of, uh, you know, uh, opportunities for security and, and challenges to come about. >>And we've seen so much change from a security perspective, um, the threat landscape over the last 18 months. So it's absolutely critical that the integration happens shifting left. Talk to us about now let's switch topics. Application teams are adopting CIC D uh, CICB workflows. Why does security need to be at the center of that adoption? >>Well, it goes back to my earlier point where when you're moving fast, your organizations are doing, um, you're building, deploying, running continuously and monitoring, and then improving, right? So the idea is you're, you're creating smaller, incremental changes, throwing it to the cloud, running it, adjusting it. So then you're, you're rapidly integrating and you're rapidly developing and delivery. And again, it comes down to that, that rapid nature, uh, things can happen. There's, there's more, uh, more points of touching and there's more points of interactions. And, you know, and again, when you're moving that fast, it's really easy to, um, miss things along the way. So as you have security as a core fundamental element of that DNA, as you're building it, uh, that that's in parallel with everything you're doing, you just make sure that, um, when you do deliver something that is the most secure application possible, you're not exposing your customers or your organizations to unforeseen risks that just kind of sits there. >>Uh, and I think part of that is if you think about cloud infrastructure, misconfiguration is still number one, uh, biggest problem with, uh, with security on the, in the cloud space, there's, uh, tasks and vulnerabilities those, we all know, and there's there's means to control that, but the configurations, when you're storing the data, the registries, all these different considerations that go into a cloud environment, those are the things that organizations need visibility on. And, um, the ability to, to adopt their processes, to be proactive in those things and know what they, uh, do. They just need to know what, what then, where are they're operating in, um, to kind of make these informed decisions. >>That visibility is key. When you're talking with customers in any industry, what are the top three, let's say recommendations to say, here's how you can reduce your exposure to security vulnerabilities in the CIS CD pipeline. What are some of the things that you recommend there to reduce the risk? >>There's a couple, oh, obviously security as a fundamental practice. We've been talking about that. So that's number one, key number. The second thing that I would say would be, uh, when you're adopting solutions, you need to consider the fact that there is a very much of a heterogeneous environment in today's, uh, ecosystem, lots of different clouds, lots of different tools. So integration is key. The ability to, um, have choices of deployment, uh, in terms of where you wanted to play. You don't want to deploy based upon the technology limitations. You want to deploy and operate your business to meet your business needs and having the right of integrations and toolings to, uh, have that flexibility. Now, option is key. And I think the third thing is once you have security, the choices, then you can treat, you create a situation where there's a lot of, uh, you know, process overhead and operational overhead, and you need a platform, a singular cybersecurity platform to kind of bring it all in that can work across multiple technologies and environments, and still be able to control at the visibility and consolidate, uh, policies and nationally consistent across all closet points. >>So we're to the DevOps folks, what are some of the key considerations that they need to take into >>Account to ensure that their container strategy isn't compromising security? Well, I think it comes down to having to think outside of just dev ops, right? You have to, we talk about CIC D you have to think beyond just the build process beyond just where things live. You have to think continuous life cycles and using a cyber security platform that brings it together, such as we have the Fortinet security fabric that does that tying a lot of different integration solutions. We work well within their core, but theirs have the ability to integrate well into various environments that provide that consistent policies. And I think that's the other thing is it's not just about integration. It's about creating that consistency across class. And the reality is also for, I think today's dev ops, many organizations are in transition it's, you know, as, as much as we all think and want to kind of get to that cloud native point in time, the reality is there's a lot of legacy things. >>And so dev ops set ups, the DevSecOps, all these different kind of operational functions need to consider the fact that everything is in transition. There are legacy applications, they are new cloud native top first type of application delivery is using containers of various technologies. And there needs to be a, again, that singular tool, the ability to tie this all together as a single pane of glass, to be able to then navigate emerge between legacy deployments and applications with the new way of doing things and the future of doing things with cloud native, uh, and it comes down again to, to something like the Fortinet security fabric, where we're tying things together, having solutions that can deploy on any cloud, securing any application on any cloud while bringing together that consistency, that visibility and the single point management, um, and to kind of lower that operational overhead and introduce security as part of the entire life cycle. >>Do you have a Vincent example of a customer that 49 has worked with that has done this, that you think really shows the value of what you're able to enable them to achieve? >>We do. We do. We have lots of customers, so can name any one specific customer for various reasons, you know, it's security after all. Um, but the, the most common use cases when customers look at it, that when you, we talked to a CIO, CSO CTO is I think that's a one enter they ask us is, well, how do we, how do we manage in this day and age making these cloud migrations? Everyone? I think the biggest challenge is everyone is in a different point in time in their cloud journey. Um, there's if you talk to a handful of customers or a rueful customers, you're not going to find one single organization that's going to be at the same point in time that matches them yet another person, another organization, in terms of how they're going about their cloud strategies, where they're deploying it at what stage of evolution there are in their organizational transformations. >>Um, and so what they're looking for is that, that that's the ability to deploy and security any application on any topic throughout their entire application life cycle. Um, and so, so the most common things that, that our customers are looking for, um, and, you know, they're doing is they're looking to secure things on the network and then interconnected to the cloud with, uh, to deliver that superior, uh, application experience. So they were deploying something like the security fabric. Uh, again, you know, Fordanet has a cybersecurity approach to that point and securing the native environments. They're looking at dev ops, they're deploying tooling to provide, uh, you know, security posture management, plus a few posture management to look at the things that are doing that, the registries, their environment, the dev environment, to then securing their cloud, uh, networks, uh, like what we do with our FortiGate solutions, where we're deploying things from the dev ops. >>I feel secure in the cloud environment with our FortiGate environments across all the various multitudes of cloud providers, uh, like, uh, AWS Azure, Google cloud, and that time that together with, with some secure, um, interconnections with SD LAN, and then tying that into the liver and productions, um, on the web application side. So it's a very much a continuous life cycle, and we're looking at various things. And again, the other example we have is because of the different places in different, uh, in terms of Tod journeys, that the number one key is the ability to then have that flexibility deployment to integrate well into existing infrastructure and build a roadmap out for, uh, cloud as they evolve. Because when you talk to customers today, um, they're not gonna know where they're going to be tomorrow. They know they need to get there. Uh, they're not sure how they're going to get there. And so what they're doing now is they're getting to cloud as quickly as they can. And then they're looking for flexibility to then kind of adjust and they need a partner like Fordanet to kind of bring that partnership and advisorship to, uh, to those organizations as they make their, their, their strategies clearer and, uh, adjust to new business demands. >>Yeah. That partnership is key there. So afforded it advocates, the importance of taking a platform approach to the application life cycle. Talk to me about what that means, and then give me like the top three considerations that customers need to be considering for this approach. >>Sure. Number one is how flexible is that deployment in terms of, do you, do customers have the option to secure and deploy any application, any cloud, do they have the flexibility of, um, integrating security into their existing toolings and then, uh, changing that out as they need, and then having a partner and a customer solution that kind of grows with that? I think that's the number one. Number two is how well are these, uh, integrations or these flexible options tied together? Um, like what we do with the security fabric, where everything kind of starts with, uh, the idea of a central management console that's, you know, uh, and consistent policies and security, um, from the get-go. And I think the third is, is looking at making sure that the, the, the security integrations, the secure intelligence is done in real time, uh, with a quality source of information, uh, and, and points of, uh, of responsiveness, um, what we do with four guard labs. >>For example, we have swell of large, um, machine learning infrastructure where have supported by all the various customer inputs and great intelligence organizations, but real time intelligence and percussion as part of that deployment life cycle. Again, this kind of really brings it all together, where organizations looking for application security and, and trying to develop in a CSED fashion. And you have the ability to then have security from the get, go hide ident to the existing toolings for flexibility, visibility, and then benefits from security all along the way with real time, you know, uh, you know, leading edge security, that then kind of brings that, that sense of confidence and reassurance as they're developing, they don't need to worry about security. Security should just be part of that. And they just need to worry about solving the customer problems and, uh, and, you know, delivering business outcomes and results. >>That's it, right? It's all about those business outcomes, but delivering that competence is key. Vince, thank you for joining me on the program today, talking through what 49 is doing, how you're helping customers to integrate security and compliance into the dev dev sec ops workflow. We appreciate your insights. >>Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. My >>Pleasure for vents Wang. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube live from Los Angeles, uh, cube con and cloud native con 21 stick around at Dave Nicholson will join me next with my next guest.

(Upbeat music) >> Hi everyone and welcome back to the Cube's coverage of Splunk.conf 2021, virtual. We are here, live in the Splunk studios here in Silicon valley. I'm John Furrier, host of the Cube. Spiros Xanthos VP of product management of observability with Splunk is here inside the cube, Spiros, thanks for coming on. Great to see you. [Spiros Xanthos]- John, thanks for having me glad to be here. >> We love observability. Of course we love Kubernetes, but that was before observability became popular. We've been covering cube-con since it was invented even before, during the OpenStack days, a lot of open source momentum with you guys with observability and also in the customer base. So I want to thank you for coming on. Give us the update. What is the observability story its clearly in the headlines of all the stories SiliconANGLE's headline is multi-cloud observability security Splunk doubling down on all three. >> Correct. >> Big part of the story is observability. >> Correct. And you mentioned CubeCon. I was there last week as well. It seems that those observability and security are the two most common buzzwords you hear these days different from how it was when we started it. But yeah, Splank actually has made the huge investment in observability, starting with the acquisition of Victor ops three years ago, and then with Omnition and Signalfx. And last year with Plumbr synthetics company called Rigor and Flowmill and a network monitoring company. And plus a lot of organic investment we've made over the last two years to essentially build an end-to-end observability platform that brings together metrics, traces, and logs, or otherwise infrastructure monitoring, log analytics, application monitoring. Visual experience monitoring all in one platform to monitor let's say traditional legacy and modern cloud native apps. >> For the folks that know SiliconANGLE, the Cube know we've been really following this from the beginning for signal effects, remember when they started they never changed their course. they've had the right They have the right history and from spot by spot, you guys, same way open source and cloud was poo-pooed upon, people went like, oh, it's not secure, they never were. Now it's the center of all the action. [Spiros Xanthos]- Yes >> And so that's really cool. And thanks for doing that. The other thing I want to get your point on is what does end-to-end observability mean? Because there's a lot of observability companies out there right now saying, Hey, we're the solution We're the utility, we're the tool, but I haven't seen a platform. So what's your answer to that? >> Yes. So observability, in my opinion, in the context of what you're describing means two things. One is that when, when we say internal durability, it means that instead of having, let's say multiple monitoring tools that are silent, let's say one for monitoring network, one for monitoring infrastructure, a separate one for monitoring APM that do not work with each other. We bring all of these telemetry in one place we connect it and exactly because actually applications and infrastructure themselves are becoming one. You have a way to monitor all of it from one place. So that's observability. But the other thing that observability also is because these environments tend to be a lot more complex. It's not just about connecting them, right? It's also about having enough data and enough analytics to be able to make sense out of those environments and solve problems faster than you could do in the past with traditional monitoring. >> That's a great definition. I've got to then ask you one of the things coming up that came out of CoopCon was clear, is that the personnel to hire, to run this stuff, it's not everyone can get the skills gap problem. At the same time, automation is at an all time high people are automating and doing AI ops, get outs. What do you want to call this a buzz word for that basically automating the data observability into the CICB pipeline, huge trend right now. And the speed of developers is fast now. They're coding fast. They don't want to wait. >> I agree. So, and that's exactly what's happening, right? We want essentially from traditional IT where developers would develop something a little bit deployed months later by some IT professional, of course, all of this coming together, But we're not stopping that as you say, right, that the shifting left is going earlier into the pipeline. Everyone expect, essentially let's say monitoring to happen at the speed of deployment. And I guess observability again, is this not, as a requirement. Observability is this idea. Let's say that I should be able to monitor my applications in real time and, you know, get information as soon as something happens. >> With the evolution of the shift left trend. I would say for the people don't know what shift left is you put security the beginning, not bolted on at the end and developers can do it with automation, all that good stuff that they have. But how, how real is that right now in terms of it happening? Can you, can you share some vision and ideas and anecdotal data on how, how fast shift left is, or is there still bottlenecks and security groups and IT groups? >> So there are bottlenecks for sure. In my opinion, we are aware with, let's say the shift left or the dev sec ops trend, whether IT and devs maybe a few years ago. And this is both a cultural evolution that has to happen. So security teams and developers have to come closer together, understand like, say the consensus of the requirements of each other so they can work better together the way it happened with DevOps and all sorts of tooling problem, right? Like still observability or monitoring solutions are not working very well with security yet. We at Splunk of course, make this a priority. And we have the platform to integrate all the data in one place. But I don't think is generally something that we'll have achieved as well as an industry yet. And including the cultural aspects of it. >> Is that why you think end to end is important to hit that piece there so that people feel like it's all working together >> I think end to end is important for two reasons. actually one is that essentially, as you say, you hit all the pieces from the point of deployment, let's say all the way to production, but it's also because I think applications and infrastructure, FMLA infrastructure with Kubernetes, microservices are in traditional so much more complexity that you need to step function improvement in the tooling as well. Right? So that you need keep up with the complexity. So bringing everything together and applying analytics on top is the way essentially to have this step function improvement in how your monitoring solution works so that it can keep up with the complexity of the underlying infrastructure and application. >> That is a huge, huge points Spiros. I got to double down on that with you and say, let's expand that because that's the number one problem, taming the complexity without slowing down. Right? So what is the best practice for that? What do people do? Cause, I mean, I know it's evolving, it's going faster than that, but it's still getting better, but not always there, but what can people do to go faster? >> So, and I will add that it's even more complex than just what the cloud, let's say, native applications introduced because especially large enterprises have to maintain their routine, that on-prem footprint legacy applications that are still in production and then still expand. So it's additive to what they have today, right? If somebody was to start from a clean slate, let's say started with Kubernetes today, maybe yes, we have the cloud native tooling to monitor that, but that's not the reality of most, most enterprises out there. Right? So I think our goal at Splunk at least is to be able to essentially work with our customers through their digital, digital transformation and cloud journey. So to be able to support all their existing applications, but also help them bring those to the cloud and develop new applications in a cloud native fashion, let's say, and we have the tooling, I think, to support all of that, right between let's say our original data platform and our metrics and traces platform that we develop further. >> That's awesome. And then one quick question on the customer side, if I'm a customer, I want observability, I want this, I want everything you just said. How do I tell the difference between a pretender and a player, the good solution and a bad solution? What are the signals that this is the real deal, that's a fake product >> Agreed. So, I mean, everyone obviously believes that original (laughing) I'm not sure if I will. >> You don't want to name names? Here's my, my perspective on what truly is a requirement for absorb-ability right? First of all, I think we have moved past the time where let's say proprietary instrumentation and data collection was a differentiator. In fact, it actually is a problem today, if you are deploying that because it creates silos, right? If I have a proprietary instrumentation approach for my application, that data cannot be connected to my infrastructure or my logs, let's say, right. So that's why we believe open telemetry is the future. And we start there in terms of data collection. Once we standardize, let's say data collection, then the problem moves to analytics. And that's, I think where the future is, right? So observability is not just about collecting a bunch of data and that bring it back to the user. It's about making sense out of this data, right? So the name of the game is analytics and machine learning on top of the data. And of course the more data you can collect, the better it is from that perspective. And of course, then when we're talking about enterprises, scale controls, compliance all of these matter. And I think real time matters a lot as well, right? We cannot be alerting people after minutes of a problem that has happened, but within a few seconds, if we wanted to really be pro-active. >> I think one thing I like to throw out there, maybe get your reaction to it, I think maybe one other thing might be enabling the customer to code on top of it, because I think trying to own the vertical stack as well as is also risky as a vendor to sell to a company, having the ability to add programming ability on top of it. >> I completely agree actually, You do? In general giving more control to the users and how, what do they do with their data, let's say, right? And even allowing them to use open source, whatever is appropriate for them, right? In combination, maybe with a vendor solution when they don't want to invest themselves. >> Build their own apps, build your own experience. That's the way the world works. That's software. >> I agree. And again, Splunk from the beginning was about that, right? Like we'll have thousands of apps built ontop of our platform >> Awesome. Well, I want to talk about open source and the work you're doing with open telemetry. I think that's super important. Again, go back even five, 10 years ago. Oh my God. The cloud's not secure. Oh my God, open source has got security holes. It turns out it's actually the opposite now. So, you know finally through the people woke up. No, but it's gotten better. So take us through the open telemetry and what you guys are doing with that. >> Yes. So first of all, my belief, my personal belief is that if there is no future where infrastructure is anything about open source, right? Because people do not trust actually close our solutions in terms of security. They prefer open source at this point. So I think that's the future. And in that sense, a few years ago, I guess our belief was that all data collection instrumentations with standards based first of all, so that the users have control and second should be open source. That's why we, at Omnition the company I co-founded that was acquired by Splunk. We we're one of the main tenders of open sensors and that we brought together open sensors and OpenTracing in creating open telemetry. And now , Open telemetry is pretty much the de facto. Every vendor supports it, its the second most active project in CNCF. And I think it's the future, right? Both because it frees up the data and breaks up the silos, but also because, has support from all the vendors. It's impossible for any single vendor to keep up with all this complexity and compete with the entire industry when we all come together. So I think it's a great success it's I guess, kudos to everybody, kudos to CNCF as well, that was able to actually create and some others. >> And props to CNCF. Yeah. CNC has done an amazing job and been going to all those events all the years and all the innovations has been phenomenal. I got to ask what the silos, since you brought it up, come multiple times. And again, I think this is important just to kind of put an exclamation point on, machine learning is based upon data. Okay. If you have silos, you have the high risk of having bad machine learning. >> Yes. >> Okay. That's you agree with that? >> Completely. >> So customers, they kind of understand this, right. If you have silos that equals bad future >> Correct >> because machine learning is baked into everything now. >> And I will add to that. So silos is the one problem, and then not being able to have all the data is another problem, right? When it comes to being able to make sense out of it. So we're big believers in what we call full fidelity. So being able to connect every byte of data and do it in a way that makes sense, obviously economically for the customer, but also have, let's say high signal to noise ratio, right? By structuring the data at the source. Overt telemetry is another contributor to that. And by collecting all the data and by having an ability, let's say to connect the data together, metrics, traces, logs, events, incidents, then we can actually build a little more effective tooling on top to provide answers back to the user with high confidence. So then users can start trusting the answers as opposed to they themselves, always having to figure out what the problem is. And I think that's the future. And we're just starting. >> Spiros I want to ask you now, my final question is about culture And you know, when you have scale with the cloud and data, goodness, where you have people actually know the value of data and they incorporate into their application, you have advantages. You have competitive advantages in some cases, but developers were just coding love dev ops because it's infrastructure as code. They don't have to get into the weeds and do the under the hood, datas have that same phenomenon right now where people want access to data. But there's certain departments like security departments and IT groups holding back and slowing down the developers who are waiting days and weeks when they want it in minutes and seconds for have these kinds of things. So the trend is, well there's, first of all, there's the culture of people aren't getting along and they're hating each other or they're not liking each other. >> Yes >> There's a little conflict, always kind of been there, but now more than ever, because why wait? >> I agree. >> How can companies shorten that cycle? Make it more cohesive, still decouple the groups because you've got, you got compliance. How do you maximize the best of a good security group, a good IT group and enables as fast as possible developers. >> I agree with you, by the way, this is primarily cultural. And then of course there is a tooling gap as well. Right. But I think we have to understand, let's say as a security group, instead of developers, what are the needs of each other, right. Why we're doing the things we're doing because everybody has the right intentions to some extent, right? But the truth is there is pain. We are me and myself. Like as we develop our own solutions in a cloud native fashion, we see that right. We want to move as fast as possible, but at the same time, want to be compliant and secure, right. And we cannot compromise actually on security or compliance. I mean, that's really the wrong solution here. So I think we need to come together, understand what each other is trying to do and provide. And actually we need to build better tooling that doesn't get into the way. Today, oftentimes it's painful to have, let's say a compliance solution or a secure solution because it slows down development. I think we need to actually, again, maybe a step function improvement in the type of tooling we'll have in this space. So it doesn't get into the way Right? It does the work it provides. Let's say the security, the security team requires, it provides the guarantees there, but doesn't get in the way of developers. And today it doesn't happen like this most of the time. So we have some ways to go. >> And Garth has mentioning how you guys got some machine learning around different products is one policy kind of give some, you know, open, you know, guardrails for the developers to bounce around and do things until they, until they have to put a new policy in place. Is that an answer automated with automation? >> Big time. Automation is a big part of the answer, right? I think we need to have tooling that first of all works quickly and provides the answers we need. And we'll have to have a way to verify that the answer are in place without slowing down developers.Splunk is, I mean, out of a utility of DevSecOps in particular is around that, right? That we need to do it in a way that doesn't get in the way of, of let's say the developer and the velocity at which they're trying to move, but also at the same time, collect all the data and make sure, you know, we know what's going on in the environment. >> Is AI ops and dev sec ops and GET ops all the same thing in your mind, or is it all just labels >> It's not necessarily the same thing because I think AI ops, in my opinion applies, let's say to even more traditional environments, what are you going to automate? Let's say IT workflows in like legacy applications and infrastructure. Getops in my mind is maybe the equivalent when you're talking about like cloud native solutions, but as a concept, potentially they are very close I guess. >> Well, great stuff. Great insight. Thanks for coming on the Cube. Final point is what's your take this year of the live we're in person, but it's virtual, we're streaming out. It's kind of a hybrid media environment. Splunk's now in the media business with the studios, everything great announcements. What's your takeaway from the keynote this week? What's your, you got to share to the audience, this week's summary. >> First of all, I really hope next year, we're all going to be in one place, but still given the limitations we had I think it was a great production and thanks to everybody who was involved. So my key takeaway is that we truly actually have moved to the data age and data is at the heart of everything we do. Right? And I think Splunk has always been that as a company, but I think we ourselves really embraced that and everything we do is everything. Most of the problems we solve are data problems, whether it's security, observability, DevSecOps, et cetera. So. >> Yeah, and I would say, I would add to that by saying that my observations during the pandemic now we're coming, hopefully to the end of it, you guys have been continuing to ship code and with real, not vaporware real product, the demos were real. And then the success on the open source. Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> All right. Thanks for coming on and we appreciate it >> Thanks alot _Cube coverage here at dot com Splunk annual conference. Virtual is the Cube. We're here live at the studios here at Splunk studios for their event. I'm John Farrow with the Cube. Thanks for watching. (joyful tune)

>>Hello, and welcome back to the cubes coverage of.com. Splunk's annual conference is virtual this year. I'm John furrier, host of the cube and a very special guest Sean vice president of product and technology cube, alumni, Sean, great to see you. Thanks for coming on the cube and chatting with us. Thanks. It's great to be here. It's been a while since we chatted, you were at AWS. Now it's Splunk heading up the entire products and technology group here, um, which we've been covering sponsors 2012. So we kinda know a lot about what's going on and, and followed your career. Um, your keynote, we kind of went into this cloud vision is hitting Splunk with the data because the cloud scale, which you know a lot about and data is now taking Splunk to a whole nother level. And that's the big theme you observability multi-cloud and security excuse has been for one there for a while. What's your, what's your assessment. >>Yeah, I mean, you know, uh, you and I have talked a number of times before, and what I found is that, you know, there's a lot of companies through this pandemic that, you know, some are thriving and some are not. And the ones that are really thriving, they have this strong data foundation. Like when you, when you talk to them, they're not stuck. Like they're there. When they talk about scaling or adding capacity or building new co uh, uh, customer experiences, they can, uh, their data platform allows that to happen. But the ones that are are stuck, you know, they just can't, they can't, they can't get to the data. They can't ask those questions that they otherwise, you know, love too. So that's, you know, I think Splunk is right in the middle of that. And that's the fun part of it. >>Yeah. You told me you have the strong foundation when thinking about Splunk is every inflection point in the industry. Over the past decade, you see Splunk do something new operationalized data, do something new, operationalize it. We saw security, I think around 2015, come on the radar at.com. And then since then a whole nother level of data, you've got edge. You have now cybersecurity, even, even more advanced than ever before. And then enterprise is just trying to develop modern applications. So you have this whole rapid scale of CICB pipeline, modern applications and the role of data. Isn't just storing it and managing it. It's like making it addressable. This is like, uh, the, the new current phenomenon of cloud. >>I mean, I liked the way you just put it, it, it really, you know, making data addressable, we put it in terms of like turn data into doing so, you know, if you have data that you're storing it, oh, that's one thing. If you don't, you don't want to leave data behind because you don't know what question you may want to ask. And when, but to your point making it addressable is if you and I decided, Hey, we want to build a new customer experience where we're thinking about doing this thing, and we're going to have a million questions to ask that data is going to help you be, uh, to know whether what you're trying to do for your customers is right or wrong. So it is a, it's remarkable to see how many customers are in pursuit of really turning data into >>Doing so. We've got to you, we had the formula one team on here, McLaren, um, Zach brown. I got a little selfie with, uh, the drivers that kind of cool. My son loved it, but that's an IOT application in my mind, first, the coolest of the sports. Awesome. But like the car going in real time, you know, driving that, driving an advantage with data. So it's an IOT IOT. Then you got just the blocking and tackling >>Data warehouse in the cloud. And then you got companies who are trying to transform a data. So I have to ask you as customers out there, look at Splunk and look at the next level of their architecture with multicloud coming around the corner. How should they be thinking about data? Get the foundation with Splunk. What's the next chapter in your mind? I mean, you know, a lot of customers that I meet they're in multiple clouds. They're not just in one. It means they've got data in Amazon or Google or Azure. A lot of them still have data on prem, you know, but when I talk to customers, they don't say things to me like, Hey, I'm in different clouds, I'm on prem. Can you make sure I have different observability and security experiences for each one? Like they don't, they really, at the end of the day, they're like, look, I need a consistent observability experience, consistent security, regardless of where my data is. >>So what that means to Splunk is, you know, wherever your data is, we're going to be Splunk will just work that that's kinda, as you know, it's how we think about it. And speaking that I had dinner with Lando the other night and it was, I hadn't met Lando before, but man, what an awesome, awesome person. We were just kind of hanging out, talking about data and I ask, this is the kind of stuff you wouldn't normally get. I asked him like, Hey, if you could, if technology could do anything to help you win formula one races, what would it be? A totally open-ended question. And I wasn't sure how he was going to answer it, but he didn't pause this guy. Like you talk about, you think of these scenarios. He's very quickly. He's like, oh man, if we had data, could help me do this and this and this and this because in his business, a millisecond can be the difference between winning or losing a race. And for some of you like, oh, that can't be, but for him, that's how his mind works. So it's crazy to see how excited he was to use tech, to get to data, ask questions that can ultimately help them. >>What was the number one thing pitting the right time or tires? What was he, what did he come up there? He is. >>You know, I can't, unfortunately >>I don't want to put you on the spot. I will be. >>This is like, you know, I, I wouldn't, uh, that would put him in a bad spot, but I will tell you though, I mean, this guy is, and that whole team is really about using data to win. >>Well, you know, I was joking. Um, but these guys can, they came on. Cause you know, I'm a big fan, obviously with the Netflix special driving two survives the name of the title. They become hugely popular to a new fan base, especially techies. Um, I said, Hey, you're driving the advantage with data kind of my little, little comeback to that, but that's really kind of a real encapsulates a real world scenario. I mean, well, there are 10,000 people working on McLaren. You have the driver in the car, you have the car itself with all this instrumentation that kind of encapsulates the enterprise experience right now. They don't have the right app doing the right thing with customers. It could be the difference between having a successful digital transformation or not. So it's kind of like parallel. I mean, I know that's kind of the tie in with the, with the sponsorship, but that's the real world now. >>Yeah, it is. And I mean, if you think about it, there's two drivers per car, 10 teams. There's so many races, there's a tremendous amount of money that they're all spending. But you know, when, when your season is really composed of a certain number of races and you got millions of people tuning in you're right. There's hundreds of people working behind the seat. Could you imagine if they didn't use data and you're trying to, you're, you're trying to race and formula one against the best drivers and the best engineers in the world. I just, you know, it goes to show you're right. It is, it's a perfect example of them transforming as any other enterprise, basically using data to get an advantage. >>And just before we move on to the next topic, the e-sports thing is fascinating as well, because now they're taking this memento verse kind of vibe where they're moving people on the e-sports, where they're having the shadow competition. It's a very interesting kind of bringing the fan base in, but there's probably gonna be a lot of data involved in that as well. Maybe identify the next driver who knows, hopefully, you know, good stuff. So Sean, you're in charge of process technology. I have to ask you, um, as customers look at all the different solutions out there, I'll say multicloud check, you guys have a good vision on that. Like that observability. I mean, that's the fashion right now. Let's talk about observability that there's so many companies out there doing quote observability. How should customers think about what that means in context to the decision of they make everyone's coming into the, the CSO or the CIO saying, um, your observability solution? >>Yeah, I mean first, um, you know, what is observability? I always like to just sort of map it back to things we might understand. So back in the day, monitoring really was connect to a machine. It has a monolith app, you know this and you just try to debug this one thing. That's not the world we live in today. Today when you're building apps in the cloud, you're you, you have hundreds of these services behind the scenes. Like no one person can actually comprehend all of it. So now all of a sudden tools become, they really matter. And what I would say is from a Splunk perspective, when we talk to customers, it's not like one person there, one team is quote, you know, working and making the whole system work. Oftentimes you have different teams like network teams, app teams, security teams, and they all kind of need to work together in one way shape or another. But this is why, you know, when rebuild our systems, it's off of shared data so that, you know, if I'm an operator, you're an app developer. And if I need to work with you, at least I can share something with you in context. So we, we, while there are individual tools to do certain things, our mental model is that they all do work together. That's super, super important for any observability thing you're looking at. You just want to make sure that you can see things end to end. Otherwise you get in trouble >>Quick. You know, I'd love to get your perspective being new to Splunk as you come in and new, the industry obviously has experienced that in the cloud has been well documented, certainly in the cube. What's it like there because as you come in, it's not a utility anymore. It's not a tool anymore. It's a platform and it's getting bigger and growing. So you have probably a lot of things going on. So you walk in and you, you say, okay, let me see the price of technology. Were you blown away? What was your reaction? What can you share some, uh, color around what's uh, what was it like when you open up the doors of the kingdom of the product? >>Yeah. Well, I mean, these t-shirts are real men and there's like ponies running around this. The Splunkers love to have fun. And you know, before I came to Splunk, the one thing I noticed, anytime I asked my thoughts long, they were fired up. Like they were really, really excited about the tech, but when I got into it, the truth is, you know, you don't know what you don't know until you see it, but I was just done to, to then sort of connect the dots like wow. Splunk is in the core data plane of tens of thousands of enterprises all over the world, like the data plane for all of their architecture and applications. So with that becomes a great responsibility, as you could imagine, but it is not just a tool. It is something that customers like. I dunno, the university of Illinois, you know, with COVID, they'll they'll track, uh, they'll track 3.2 million saliva tests just for contract tracing and behind the scenes, they're using Splunk for a real thing. Or we've talked about F1 or you think of slack, like we're all kind of using slack. These days, slack is using, um, uh, Splunk to make sure that their environment of slackers and everything's building it's all secure. So th it's those stories that go on and on are just incredible. When you learn that, >>I started at Teresa Carlson yesterday, and we were talking about the growth opportunity and I spent speculating that, you know, my opinion, my opinion, that's looking, hang on the cube is that Splunk's that this new inflection point that another elbow, another kickoff, the growth, the way it's positioned. If you look at kind of where it's been, kind of where it's going with security now as a platform with the enterprises, how do you describe that growth in your mind? Because obviously this market's changing an edge real time. All these things are happening. What's, what's the, where's the growth going to be? >>Yeah, I think it's in the cloud. I mean, if you think of Splunk, I think the company is about 18, 19 years old. So its history is an almost 20 years of on-premise software. In some sense, you might go, Hey, is that a liability? But Rio, the reality is it's a strength because we're already part of these enterprise infrastructures and application stacks. And then when you now move that group to the cloud, and then you got all others coming to the cloud, that's where they're, I mean, it is just the tip of what is happening. So, you know, if I'm a customer and I moved to the cloud in the cloud, it's like, I don't have to really scale or size anything. Like it just works. And it, to me, it's just an end point and I load data. So in that context, the number of new use cases that customers are able to get after is actually pretty awesome. But really at the end of the day it's cloud. >>Well, great to have you on, I know you've got to go. Thanks for coming on the queue. One final question. What's your vision for the next year or two, what's your to do items. What's the message to the marketplace. >>You know, I'm, I'm thrilled to be here, but at the end of the day, you know, my message to the marketplaces, we're all excited to work with our customers to really help them have that strong foundation so they can turn data into doing and actually pull off these digital transformation. >>One final final question for the companies that get the cloud scale combined with putting data into action for the, for the value what's the result going to be is they can put more competitive advantage. Is it more agility? What do you see happening when you combine the cloud scale with a great data plane? >>Yeah, I think at the end of the day, these companies would tell you that they can move faster than ever before. They're more competitive there. They have confidence that their environments secure, they can build new customer experiences. And when you put all of that together, honestly, that is what these digital transformations are all >>Great to be in the product and technology business these days. Isn't it a lot of fun, a lot of action. Thanks for coming on the cube. Really appreciate it. Yeah, you bet. Good to be here. It's the cube coverage here, here at the live studio for Splunk studios, for their virtual events, the cube bring you all the action. I'm John for a, your host. Thanks for watching.

>> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon + CloudNativeCon 21 live form Los Angeles. Lisa Martin, with Dave Nicholson. And we've got a CUBE alum back with us. Webb Brown is back. The co-founder and CEO of Kubecost. Welcome back! >> Thank you so much. It's great to be back. It's been right at two years, a lot's happening in our community and ecosystem as well as with our open source project and company. So awesome with that. >> Give the audience an overview in case they're not familiar with Kubecost. And then talk to us about this explosive growth that you've seen since we last saw you in person. >> Yeah, absolutely. So Kubecost provides cost management solutions purpose-built for teams throwing in Kubernetes and Cloud Native. Right? So everything we do is built on open source. All of our products can be installed in minutes. We give teams visibility into spend, then help them optimize it and govern it over time. So it's been a busy two years since we last talked, we have grown the team about, you know, 5 x, so like right around 20 people today. We now have thousands of mostly medium and large sized enterprises using the product. You know, that's north of a 10 x growth since we launched just before, you know, KubeCon San Diego, now managing billions of dollars of spin and, you know, I feel like, we're just getting started. So it's an incredibly exciting time for us as a company and also just great to be back in person with our friends in the community. >> This community is such a strong community. And it's great to see people back here. I agree. >> Absolutely, absolutely. >> So Kubecost, obviously you talk about cost optimization, but it's, you really, you're an insight engine in the sense that if you're looking at costs, you have to measure that against what you're getting for that cost. >> Absolutely. So what are some of the insights that your platform or that your tool set offers. >> Yeah, absolutely, so, you know, we think about our product is first and foremost, like visibility and monitoring and then insights and optimization and then governance. You know, if you talk to most teams today, they're still kind of getting that visibility, but once you do it quickly leads in how do we optimize? And then we're going to give you insights at every part of the stack, right? So like at the infrastructure layer, thinking about things like Spot and RIS and savings plans, et cetera. At the Kubernetes orchestration layer, thinking about things like auto scaling and, you know, setting requests and limits, et cetera, all the way up to like the application layer with all of that being purpose-built for, you know, Cloud Native Kubernetes. So the way we work as you deploy our product in your environment, anywhere you're running Kubernetes, 1.11 or above we'll run. And we're going to start dynamically generating these insights in minutes and they're real time. And again, they scaled to the largest Kubernetes clusters in the world. >> And you said, you've had a thousand or so customers in the medium to large enterprise. These are large organizations, probably brand names, I imagine we are familiar with that are leaning on Kubecost to help get that visibility that before they did not have the ability to get. >> Absolutely, absolutely. So definitely our users of our thousands of users, skews heavily towards, you know, medium and large side enterprise. Working with some amazing companies like Adobe, who, you know, just have such high scale and like complex and sophisticated infrastructure. So, you know, I think this is very natural in what we expect, which is like, as you start spending more resources, you know, missing visibility, having unoptimized infrastructure starts to be more costly. >> Absolutely. >> And we typically see as once that gets into like the multiple head count, right? And it starts to, you know, spend some, may make sense to spend some time optimizing and monitoring and, you know, putting the learning in place. So you can manage it more effectively as time goes on. >> Do you have any metrics or any X factor ranges of the costs that you've actually saved customers? >> Yeah. I mean, we've saved multiple customers in them, like many of millions of dollars at this point, >> So we're talking big. >> Really big. So yeah, we're now managing more than $2 billion of spin. So like some really big savings on a per customer base, but it's really common where we're saving, you know, north of 30%, sometimes up to 70% on your Kubernetes and related spin. And so we're giving you insights into your Kubernetes cluster and again, the full stack there, but also giving you visibility and insights into external things like external disk or cloud storage buckets or, you know, cloud sequel that, that sort of stuff, external cloud services. >> Taking those blinders off >> Exactly. And giving you that unified, you know, real time picture again, that accurately reflects everything that's going on in your system. >> So when these insights are produced or revealed, are the responses automated? or are they then manually applied? >> Yeah. Yeah. That's a great question. We support both and we support both in different ways By default, when you deploy Kubecost, and again it's, today it's Helm Install. It can be running in your cluster in, you know, minutes or less, it's deployed in read only mode. And by the way, you don't share any data externally, it's all in your local environment. So we started generating these insights, you know, right when you install in your environment. >> Let me ask you about, I'm sorry to interrupt, but when you say you're generating an insight, are you just giving an answer and guidance? or you're providing the reader background on what leads to that insight? >> Yeah. You know, is that a philosophical question of, do you need to provide the user rationale for the insight? >> Yeah, absolutely. And I think we're doing this today and we'll do more, but one example is, you know, if you just look at this notion of setting requests and limits for your applications in Kubernetes, you know, if you, in simple forms, if you set a request too high, you're potentially wasting money because the Kubernetes scheduler is presenting that resource for you. If you set it too low, you're at risk of being CPU throttled, right? So communicating that symbiotic relationship and the risk on either side really helps the team understand why do I need to strike this balance, right? It's not just cost it's performance and reliability as well. So absolutely given that background and again, out of the box we're read only, but we also have automation in our product with our cluster controller. So you can dynamically do things like right-size your infrastructure, or, you know, move workloads to Spot, et cetera. But we also have integrations with a bunch of tooling in this ecosystem. So like Prometheus native, you know, Alert Manager native, just launched an integration with Spinnaker and Armory where you can like dynamically at the time of deployment, you know, right size and have insights. So you can expect to see more from us there. But we very much think about automation is twofold. One, you know, building trust in Kubecost and our insights and adopting them over time. But then two is meeting you where you are with your existing tooling, whether it's your CICB pipeline, observability or, you know, existing kind of workflow automation system. >> Meeting customers where they are is, is critical these days. >> Absolutely. I think, especially in this market, right? where we have the potential to have so much interoperability and all these things working in harmony and also, you know, there's, there's a lot of booths back here, right? So we, you know, we have complex tech stacks and, you know, in certain cases we feel like when we bring you to our UI or API's or, you know, automation or COI's, we can do things more effective. But oftentimes when we bring that data to you, we can be more effective again, that's, you know, coming, bringing your data to Chronosphere or Prometheus or Grafana, you know, all of the tooling that you're already using on a daily, regular basis. >> Bringing that data into the tool is just another example of the value in data that the organizations can actually harness that value and unlock it. >> Webb: Yeah. >> There's so much potential there for them to be more competitive, for them to be able to develop products and services faster. >> Absolutely. Yeah, I think you're just seeing the coming of age with, you know, cost metrics into that equation. We now live in a world with Kubernetes as this amazing innovation platform where as an engineer, I can go spin up some pretty costly resources, really fast, and that's a great thing for innovation, right? But it also kind of pushes some of the accountability or awareness down to the individual >> Webb: IC who needs to be aware, you know, what, you know, things generally cost at a minimum in like a directional way, so they can make informed decisions again, when they think about this cost performance, reliability, trade-off. >> Lisa: Where are your customer conversations? Are your target users, DevOps folks? I was just wondering where finance might be in this whole game. >> Yeah, it's a great question. Given the fact that we are kind of open source first and started with open source, we, you know, 95% of the time when we start working with an infrastructure engineering team or dev ops team. They've already installed our product. They're already familiar with what we're doing, but then increasingly and increasingly fast, you know, finance is being brought into the equation and, you know, management is being brought into the equation. And I think it's a function of what we were talking about where, you know, 70% of teams grew their Kubernetes spend over the last year, you know, 20% of them more than doubled. So, you know, these are starting to be real, you know, expense items where finance is increasingly aware of what's going on. So yeah, they're coming into the picture, but it's simply thought that you starting with, and, and working with the infrastructure team, that's actually kind of putting some of these insights into action or hooking us into their pipelines or something. >> When you think of developers going out and grabbing resources, and you think of a, an insight tool that looks at controlling cost, that could seem like an inhibitor. But really if you're talking about how to efficiently use whatever resources you have to be able to have access to in terms of dollars, you could sell this to the developers on that basis. It's like, look, you have these 10 things that you want to be able to do. If you don't optimize using a tool like this, you're only going to be able to do 4 of them. >> Without a doubt. Yeah. And you know, us as our founding team, all engineers, you know, we were the ones getting those questions of, you know, how have we already spent, you know, our budget on just this project? We have these three others we want to do, right? Or why are costs going up as quickly as they are? You know, what are we spending on this application, instead of that kind of being a manual lift, like, let me go do a bunch of analysis or come back with answers. It's tools to where not only can management answer those questions themselves, but like engineering teams can make informed opportunity costs and optimizations decisions itself, whether it's tooling and automation doing it for them or them applying things, you know, directly. >> Lisa: So a lot of growth. You talked about the growth on employees, the growth in revenue, what lies ahead for Kubecost? What are some of the things that are coming on the horizon that you're really excited about? >> Yeah, we very much feel like we're just getting started you know, just like we feel this ecosystem and community is, right? Like there's been tons of progress all around, but like, wow, it's still early days. So, you know, we, we did raise, you know, five and a half million dollars from, you know, First Round who is an amazing group to work with at the end of last year. So by growing the engineering team were able to do a lot more. We got a bunch of really big things coming across all parts of our product. You can think about one thing we're really excited that's in limit availability right now is our first hosted solution. It's our first SaaS solution. And this is critically important to us in that we want to give teams the option to, if you want to own and control your data and never egress anything outside of your cluster, you can do that with our deploy product. You can do that with our open source. You can truly lock down namespace to egress and never send a byte out. Or if you'd like the convenience of us to manage it for you and be kind of stewards of your data, we're going to offer, you know, a great offering there too. So that's unlimited availability day. We're going to have a lot more announcements coming there, but we see those being at feature parity, you know, between like our enterprise offerings and our hosted solution and just, you know, a lot more coming with, you know, visibility, some more like GPU insights, you know, metrics coming quickly, a lot more with automation coming and then more integrations for governance. Again, kind of talked about Spinnaker and things like that. A lot more really interesting ones coming. >> So five and a half million raised in the last round of funding. Where are you going to be applying that? What are some of the growth engines that you want to tune with that money? >> Yeah, so, you know, first and foremost, it was really growing the engineering team, right? So we've, you know, like 4 x the engineering team in the last year, and just have an amazing group of engineers. We want to continue to do that. >> Webb: We're kind of super early on the like, you know, marketing and sales side. We're going to start thinking about that more and more, you know, our approach first off was like, we want to solve a really valuable problem and doing it in a way that is super compelling. And we think that when you do that, you know, good things happen. I think that's some of our Google background, which is like, you build a great search engine and like, you know, good things generally happen. So we're just super focused on, again, working with great users, you know, building great products that meet them where they are and solve problems that are really important to them. >> Lisa: Awesome. Well, congratulations on all the trajectory of success since we last saw you in person. >> Thank you. >> Great to have you back on the show, looking forward to, so folks can go to www.kubecost.com to learn more and see some of those announcements coming down the pike. >> Absolutely, yeah. >> Don't you make it two years before you come back. >> Webb: I would love to be back. I hope we're back bigger than ever, you know, next year, but it has been such a pleasure, you know, last time and this time, thank you so much for having me, you know, I love being part of the show and the community at large. >> It's a great community and we appreciate you sharing all your insights. >> Thank you so much. >> All right. For Dave Nicholson, I'm Lisa Martin coming to you live from Los Angeles. This is theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 21. We back with our next guest shortly. We'll see you there.

>>From the Bellagio hotel in Las Vegas, it's the cube covering UI path forward for brought to you by >>Hello from Las Vegas, live at the Bellagio. Lisa Martin, with Dave Volante. We are at UI path forward for, like I said, in Las Vegas. So great to be in person, sitting at an anchor desk with a co-anchor. And I guess we're going to be talking about deploying new technologies and a large global enterprise. Nikki Harris is here. Manage your application, performing platform engineering services at Chevron Vicky. Welcome to the program. Hey, thank >>You. Happy to be >>Here. So isn't it great to be we're outdoors. Nice that everyone's nice and safe, but great to be back at an in-person event where so many hallway conversations can spark more innovation. That's one of the things I think a lot of us have been missing in the last 18 months. You've been with Chevron almost 15 years, but this is, we're talking about 142 year old organization. Talk to me about the evolution of it that you've seen. >>Very happy to do that. Um, a lot of, uh, I would say the greatest jump forward we saw in cloud and we started our cloud transformation before digital transformation came along. Uh, but it was the, really the thing that enabled us to, uh, be ready, I would say for the extra value, the extra push. And so we were so happy to be well positioned. So we started our cloud journey in 2017 and, uh, between 2018 and 19, because of the investments in automation, it just took off and today we're still receiving the benefits of that. Um, but prior to that, it took a little bit longer. Uh, also we had an agile transformation, which was very helpful because we can't really afford to move at waterfall speed anymore. Um, and so cloud and agile really helped boost that and get us started. >>So whenever we get a practitioner on, we have a million questions. So, so can we start with your role? Are you in it, that's where you're in that organization or >>I am in it. So I'm a product line manager. We support really the core for software engineers and citizen developers. So on the software engineering side, CICB pipeline, dev ops tooling, code frameworks, all of that to make our software engineers more productive and on the citizen development side, same philosophy, we want to make them more productive, not worry about how do I do it, just how to apply their business logic. So we support the citizen development programs and the underlying platforms. >>So they gave, when you talked about cloud in 2017, are you talking about infrastructure as a service platform, as a service SAS, all of the above, cause cause you have to do, I'm sure you were doing SAS before then, but how do you think about cloud? >>So that's a great question. Yes. We were always doing SAS and we continue to do SAS. Uh, so, and Chevron was one of the earlier adopters of UI path for cloud. We do want to be cloud first, always, always, always. And we are trying to really reduce and restrict our on-prem footprint. Um, but the automation we started in kind of 20 17, 20 18 is, um, I would call it infrastructure as code. Uh, so deploying everything with code, um, the same way all the time, uh, which was partly a technical shift, but also a really big cultural shift that instead of having people doing the same task, you know, 400 different ways, which is hard to sustain, it's hard to troubleshoot. Uh, so we took the pain in, in building that and there's a lot of pain in, in the transformation itself, but the upside when you're finished is amazing. >>Yeah. So that's what you just answered. My next question, which was what is the catalyst? It was seeing the clouds potential for programmable infrastructure. And that sounds like it was a game changer. >>It was a huge game changer. And that really, uh, on the software engineering side, the whole way we do infrastructure, the way we program everything. Uh, but we also found we're not touching part of the organization with that transformation. And that's where the citizen development programs and RPA comes in is, you know, Hey, we're really proud of ourselves. We did so well, but how do we get to the edge, uh, where we haven't been able to have the same impact with that automation >>For an organization that I mentioned 142 years young will say, I guess you could say old for an organization young for a person where in, in terms of the cultural change, that's hard to, to manifest across such a historic history institution. Talk to me about the appetite for automation. You said you guys started doing automation, bringing it into the organization and in the last five years or so, what's been the appetite across different lines of business to embrace it, to see it as an advantage rather than taking jobs away. >>Uh, so there's never appetite for automation on its own because you're changing someone's process. Um, but what there is appetite for is the results. Uh, and also, uh, we went through a large organizational transformation. So in addition to value, um, you know, bottom line cost savings, we have people who are just improving their, their workflow for themselves. And so there's also a sense of empowerment for them. So I would say the empowerment and then the results are much bigger drivers. And then you say, oh, if you want that, yes, by the way, this is how we get that. But it's not, you know, automation for automation sake. Uh, but people understand, they understand now the value of it and they, the more they learn, they understand that, um, doing one process 25 ways, it's not a way to run your business, >>Right. How to actually drive this outcomes that they're looking for. >>So how did it start? When did it start in? It was an it led initiative or was it a department? >>It led, >>Yes. Okay. And so, so focused on the it department. So you automating certain tasks within it or, or not necessarily >>Necessarily. So, um, it led, but as the foundation for all the business units. So again, we focus on the core, but we also focus on enablement. So anybody who's a builder maker, developer out there in the business units, we just want to make their job easier, better, faster, um, just for the business logic. So then we'd bring them in and say, here's how you do it. Um, but they bring the best ideas, right? They know their business processes. I don't know their business processes. If I sat down and said, here's where automation value is, um, we wouldn't be doing so well. They know where it is. Uh, we just give them the tools to, to find that value. And you know, it's extraordinary how they find it. If there's a lot of manual processes out there, >>A common story, when you talk to UI path, customers, that'll start maybe one person in a department and then people looking over her shoulder going, oh, I want some of that. And then it explodes. It sounds like you were taking a much more whole house approach. >>We are taking a whole house approach, but we did start early with POC. Uh, and so, and then those proved their value pretty easily and pretty quickly. And so then it was a determination of, Hey, we would like to do something bigger here than just leave this technology out there. We're just leaving all this value on the table. We're leaving all this skill sets, all this passion, all this enthusiasm in our citizen community. We don't think we can transform as a corporation. If we leave that energy motivation skill on the table >>And some color to the ROI. Have you said to POC, you're a good, quick hit, obviously. Could you give us some details on that? What can you tell us? >>What can I tell you? Okay, well, so, um, from when we started the program three years, I think we're showing about $6 million of return. Um, we, we see the value just in time savings like everybody else does. And we have, so that's with about, um, 300 automations, six over 600,000 hours I think saved. Uh, but first year it's just so easy. You can see it. It's not hard to calculate it, the hour saving, very simple calculation. So anybody who's concerned about ROI, it's so simple, it's so easy. You should be able to find it in your first year if you're not finding it in your first year. Um, I mean, obviously it grows, but if you're not finding some return in the first year, I would say, you know, take a look at what you need to adjust because it's not that hard >>CFO. Sorry. One more question. If I may, and your CFO saw that, okay. Time-savings essentially was the business result, but it wasn't necessarily it, was it hard or were they, did your CFO say, ah, that's kind of soft dollars or is it >>Both hard and soft? So, and yeah, we would never put a dollar sign next to something that doesn't hit the income statement. So I'm very careful about that. Right. Um, but yeah, it's both because some times, um, somebody actually changed their group first and they're feeling the process pain after. And so the healing of automating something. So the, just the two people can do it. Uh, we've seen that use case as well. It's harder to capture any savings because it's not really savings there, but it's, it's um, more of a job satisfaction. So there's a lot of soft benefits that go with it, but we don't usually, you know, commit, turn that into dollars. That's not very valuable. Yeah. >>Use those employee Mo employees that are far more productive are eventually helping the customers be more productive as well. I think they're directly linked. Well, you said you found ROI quickly and that's something that you iPad says about itself that customers are generally achieving an ROI of a break even within months alone. So when you talk to other professionals in oil and gas, how do you talk to them about automation being really a critical driver of that business's success and transformation? >>Uh, I think in large enterprises, whether they're in our sector or not, some of them just struggle with the sheer scale, it's almost like, where do I start? So they do see the value. Uh, but it's more about how do I, how do I start this thing? How do I scale this thing? How do I structure a program? Um, I have not found anyone that says, I don't believe the value proposition again, it's pretty easy to do. >>And the RPA POC started after cloud. Right. So it was, am I right about that? It was 18, 19 timeframe. >>Uh, I would say actually starting around the same time were done in, in 2017. So yeah. >>And so, uh, was there anything specific in your industry that you targeted? I mean, you obviously wanted to hit the high value items first. Was there anything particular there? >>Um, that's a really good question. I think we, our journey looks like other companies kind of, they start with the back office. Those are the easiest processes to, for people to understand. And just in terms of, you know, where do I have a heavy manual load? Uh, so some of our first work was with finance in currency conversion. So pretty, pretty manual intensive for a global company. Pretty big deal, lots of immediate value. Uh, but if you think of, let's talk about Wells. So, you know, we have systems for mapping, Wells drilling, Wells, uh, you'd be surprised some of those systems look kind of like your ERP. They have kind of the same challenges. So, um, as we extend outside of traditional kind of HR finance audit practices into the rest of our business, the use cases are similar. Um, I've got disparate documents. I have systems that don't talk to each other. Well, I have somebody who S and we have a lot of partners. So if you're in a project with five partners and everybody's producing a different type of document or something, how do you make some sense out of that? Uh, so use cases like that, um, we're finding in our upstream and downstream businesses also, >>And you did an RFP at the time, wrote a bunch of vendors and ran them through the cycles or >>Comparisons yeah. Early on >>While UI path, what was it about >>Strong user experience? So, uh, because this is primarily citizen enabled and so that feedback, Hey, could I learn this quickly? Was it easy to use? Those were really the most important things in selection. I mean, we always look at costs that's important too. Um, but also a company's position. So their ability to scale and grow. Um, there's a lot of people in this market, uh, because of the interest in automation. Uh, so part of it is also understanding the strength of the company behind as well. >>One of the things that was mentioned in the keynote this morning, I think it was a stat from Gartner that in 2016, or was about 2% of, um, automateable processes were automated fast forward. Now it's about 25%. There's still a tremendous amount of potential for organizations and any industry to deploy automation. You've said, you've got about 300 plus automation so far. What are some of the things that are coming next that you can see, >>Sure. What is our upside, or where do we stop or our growth taper? Um, I don't think we know, uh, we get so much from our user community in terms of what can we do now? Um, there are so empowered, so I wouldn't want to set limits on ourselves in terms of what we can do. Uh, but certainly we're looking at, um, text analytics, really, how do we manage that document? How do we extract that data, use models to get that into our data lake? Uh, but there's still always the work of finding still that last mile of process. There's many parts of our business still untouched. And so we don't, we don't let, or we don't want to let up on that. That's still important to go after all of that and keep the programs going >>W Chevron huge company. And you've got probably one of everything that's ever been invented in technology. We're seeing a trend where a lot of these, these software companies are embedding RPA into their platforms. You see it with the ERP vendors, uh, uh, acquisitions being made for service management, you know, big cloud guys ha have, uh, you know, on and on and on. And, and so how do you think about those sort of vertically integrated stacks versus what you're doing with UI path? >>So for me, I think of them the same as a code extension. So, because that was more popular a few years ago on those big platforms and you're right, we have one of everything. Um, but it's important to when you think of investment and ROI, uh, where do we actually spend money? It's in maintaining the capability, keeping the programs, doing the training, that's an investment. And so when someone comes to me and says, can you support some other tool? Um, I usually say maybe not, is there a business case for that because we want to be able to deploy to the whole enterprise, um, that isn't to say that somebody who's got a workflow that stays within that platform, that that might be inappropriate use for them, but a very sure it's not an appropriate use to extend it out of that platform somewhere else. >>Uh, and so we draw the line really, what do we, enterprise automation. We want to be very careful about the tools we use for that. And, and the reason for that is not just security, reliability, and the ability to scale those programs. Because when someone calls me and says, my stuff doesn't scale, it's like ours does. Um, and so, but the org capability investment is also it's, it's not small. Uh, and so if you've got to believe in this, you have to keep feeding it. You have to keep training new people, bringing them on. Uh, and so you can't really do that across 12 platforms, right? >>You're creating your own flywheel and that's how you can accelerate ROI. Right? >>Correct. Although, you know, the citizen developers are driving the wheel for sure. >>You, as in Chevron mean not Vicki, Inc. >>Vicky, thank you so much. We are out of time, but thanks for stopping by talking to us about automation in a large global enterprise at Chevron. I won't look at Chevron at the same again. Now I know how forward-thinking they are and how much they are embracing technology. We appreciate your time. >>It's been my pleasure. Thank you both. >>All right. For Dave Volante and Lisa Martin, we live at the Bellagio in Las Vegas UI path forward for we'll be right back.

(upbeat music) >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to this special CUBE conversation. I'm John Furrier, host of the CUBE. We are not in the Palo Alto studio, We are in Napa Valley for a special CUBE event. And we have a great CUBE alumni guest remoting in from Seattle, Napa, Seattle. Venkat Krishnamachari, CEO and Co-founder of MontyCloud, CUBE alumni. Venkat, welcome back to the CUBE. Great to see you. >> It is great to see you again, John. Thank you for taking time. >> So we've had previous conversations on the CUBE. You guys were advanced technology partner with AWS. And startup showcase is going on again, we're back for a revisit there for special session. We're going to go into deep dive on MontyCloud. You've had tremendous success with very large enterprises with your product. Congratulations, and you're just emerging really into rapid growth. Take a minute to explain for the viewers who is MontyCloud and what's going on. >> Sure thing, John. So we are an autonomous cloud operations company. Like you call it, we are also an advanced technology partner, a public sector partner, and an Amazon certified cloud management partner. What we do is we help IT teams simplify their cloud operations. With our platform, our customers, without adding any specialized cloud skills or adding any multiple point tools, they can still enable their teams to provision, manage, operate the Cloud and reduce the ongoing cloud operations cost by 70%. That's what we do for our customers. >> You guys are solving a real problem that's emerging very quickly. It's actually a more of an opportunity, less of a problem, but it means a problem if you don't address it. And that is the cloud migration is going next level. Meaning, people are re platforming to the cloud with cloud operations. But now they're starting to leverage the cloud services and there's more and more coming on every day. Look at what server less is doing and the impact of microservices, just everything is changing fast and people are refactoring their businesses with cloud services. This is where it starts to get into what they call day two operations, where you got to be day one every day and create innovation. But now you've got this day two, where reliability, security, new things have to be nailed down and secured and stabilized. And so this is a big trend. You guys have a solution here. Could you take a minute and talk about the specific problem that you see customers and how you guys solve it? >> Sure thing. So customers like you rightly say, John, they're rapidly adopting the cloud. And what we are seeing here is there is a challenge of not just onboarding and consistent provisioning, which they perform on the metaphorical day one. They are also burdened with multiple operations. Like you called out, right? Keeping the security of your application, high compliance, maintaining visibility into who's using what, why some things are costing more or sometimes, sometimes they're not costing appropriately, right? Having a position on all of that is now an increasing burden and the responsibility on the IT team and the IT teams are increasingly being held accountable to the business objectives because business objectives are getting closely tied with cloud and digital transformation. That's the area we help and solve. >> So I want to ask you one of the questions that's come up a lot. And this is, and I don't mean to put you on the spot here at Venkat, but I think it's important to address a lot of people say, Hey, I'm buying into this misdirection. I just don't have the staff. My IT guys can't be trained fast enough. I got them on a re-skilling track. I got to find some talent. This is becoming not just how to provision stand up applications, put them in the cloud and grow them talent, the talent equation. Can you talk about how you see that problem being solved and how, what are you guys doing to help them? >> Yeah, that's a, that's a great question. I might skip some things to go directly to some of the value we'll be at, right? With our platform, imagine adding a highly skilled cloud solutions architect in under 10 minutes to your teams. That's one of the value of our platform. Customers are trying to hire more and more cloud solution architects. They're trying to upscale their own team members so that they can enable the rest of the company to consume the cloud safely, which means a cloud solutions architect role is not only the safe building blocks that others can reuse, but also put governance guardrails, and drive for accountability so that developers can move fast. That's one of the areas customers are struggling to hire and up-skill with our platform within 10 minutes, you can turn on autonomous cloud solution architect, which comes in, helps you fast track provisioning. Customers can deploy any kind of application pattern from networking to data services, to Silva based or container based applications. We have pre-built well architected solutions in the platform that acts like your own cloud solution architect. We address that skill gap immediately, their platform on the day one aspect of things. >> Yeah, I love it. It's like, you know, the old joke AI bots are bots are automating things. You're essentially automating like key specialized roles that traditionally were expensive. I mean, it's hard to find talent at that level. So I think that's a major wave coming and I think you guys are on top of it. So definitely want to hear more about that. I do want to get your thoughts while I have you here about cloud operations day one operations, day two operations, Venkat, define for me what you consider day one operations. >> Yeah. Day one operations involve helping your teams consume the cloud and fast track your digital transformation would an ability to have developers move fast, right? That's kind of day one, right? The top-down leadership decides let's go to the cloud. They have the enabled teams to consume it, and safely. That is an area we help. One, a typical thing we've learned in our conversations with customers, John, is this. Right, It's very expensive to let teams provision like the wild wild west, right? And then later pull back control. Later, drive for accountability. Oftentimes we see that customers end up in a spot where they wonder why this is costing them so much more than they originally taught. A lot of that is because consuming the cloud from day one itself has to be thought through, has to have well-architected principles in mind. So we help in that area. We call this shifting left, right? Customers, if they... the best way, right? The best way to consume the cloud and the right way to do it is to ensure that when you provision itself, there is a notion of well-architected principles in place security compliance costs are being addressed in the provisioning aspects. So we help there, for example, a fortune hundred customers for us, right? They were looking to fast track the application modernization and they were under pressure to do that. They use MontyCloud's pre-built templates, which are well-architected. That teams were able to fast track provisioning of the resources, enable the developers with the CICB pipeline that they needed and they could move their application fast. The key thing here is post moving the application. They found that the approach we took to solve in the day, one problem automatically reduces the amount of time they need to spend to drive for who owns the resources. Why is it costing so much? All those problems go away to a certain degree. If you think about day one, the right way. That's one area we helped with. And that's how we think about day one, reduce the ongoing burden from day one itself. >> Day one's great. You give them a blank, check the provisioning, all the services. And next thing you know, you're racking up a big bill. The engineers are building and they're waiting, but what do we build? Great stuff. First of all, engineers want to get access that's critical. And we know that that's where the innovation comes from Right, now, I want you to talk about day two operations because this, this where it starts to get really interesting when you start to reign it in, you know, the old expression, let chaos reign and then rein in the chaos. So define day two operations for us, what is day two operations mean for you? >> Okay. So this is our deep, you know, hypothesis that was driven by a really rich conversation with customers, right? Ongoing operations in the cloud is the responsibility of multiple teams. And the cloud providers are expecting consumers and the customers in this case to have a shared portion of their responsibility, right? Security is a shared responsibility. Compliance is a shared responsibility. Cost management is a shared responsibility. And then the ongoing uptime and MTTR, like the meantime to resolution, they are all responsibilities are wholly sitting on the customer side. All of this put together impact the bottom line of the business because more and more businesses are now cloud businesses powered by cloud applications, managing this entire set of problems, and challenges, is what we call us day two operations. >> One of the things you guys have been known for in the industry, in your customer base and within some of the geek community is you guys turn it teams into cloud powerhouses that's been said, what does that mean? What can you take me through that? Because I mean, we know what IT teams do. They could provision gear, they'd be mostly on premises. And they move to the cloud. They still got to do all the things that it stands to do, but then they got cloud and they got automation. So, but explain to me how you guys have transformed IT teams into cloud powerhouses. >> Sure. So maybe the customer example will help. Right? One of her fortune funded launch, you know, global customer before they're at the cloud, they had a five member team watching over a farm of servers, right? More 10,000 servers for compliance needs. Their physician wants to move those servers to the cloud. And, and in essence, move applications to the cloud and continue to provide compliance to their entire organization. In that they started up-skilling the five member team. When they met MontyCloud, we offered them a solution that not only help them govern those servers in the cloud with a very simple no-code approach, we also gave them four of their headcount back. They were able to repurpose four members on the team to other projects because we attached them that we attached with them compliance bot. We asked this question right to customers. Wouldn't it be? Wouldn't it be awesome, if you're able to quickly add a cloud operations engineer, a cloud security engineer, a cloud compliance engineer, to every application in a dedicated manner? Customers go, how do we do that, right? Well, we have anonymous bots that have been built for this purpose and the comprehensive real-time bots that customers can fine- tune to their environments, and it's as if you added a dedicated cloud compliance engineer. In this particular case, there's a large customer is now operating a 10,000 plus server farm with MontyCloud compliance bot with another individual on the team. And the other four individuals were given back to other projects. This is what we mean by empowering our customers and making that cloud team, the traditional IT teams into cloud powerhouses. They can do more with less and they can keep track of the cloud consumption in the right way. And they can do that without having to write a single line of code. That's what our platform promises. >> Awesome. Well, great stuff. As enterprise buyers are out there looking at solutions, you know, they always try to, you know, separate the winners from the not so good winners, if you will, that'd be, be polite. Jerry Chen regionally has been talking about this paper castles in the cloud where you can build moats within the cloud and build on other people's clouds. So that brings up the question that I wanted to ask you about MontyCloud. Your competitive advantage and how you compare vis-a-vis the competition and how should customers would potentially evaluating your platform and your services look at you long-term are you going to, what kind of value proposition are you offering them? Cause that's always top of mind in enterprise, you know, these guys got to be around, what, are they like me? They're going to solve my problem and help me transform. Will they deliver the value? So the question is, how are you guys competing? Can you address that please? >> Yeah. Like we, like, we have been sharing, you know, more than competition. It's the customer, right? That is so much more customer challenge to solve and solve it in a way that's most meaningful to customers. The competition is good to have because they sometimes show us the way, but customers really tell us both their stated needs and the implied needs that we find out, right? John, we are the only comprehensive cloud management platform that enables our customers in every step of the cloud transformation, right? You will find a, you will find in the market, point tools that help with security, point tools that help with compliance, provisioning infrastructure as code solutions that you have to learn and write code and do. There's a lot going on. We are the only comprehensive platform that thinks about customers from the day one. From onboarding to provisioning and consumption to governance, to security, compliance, and ongoing operations with costs and context in mind, we are the only platform that offers that to our customers. And all of that, without the customers having to write a single line of code, they can fast track as if they onboarded a cloud center of excellence in their team with the MontyCloud platform. That's our biggest differentiation. And this comes from deep understanding of the customers, interconnected problems, because you don't only solve provisioning and then forget context, you don't solve only context and cost and forget security. All of these are interconnected challenges. So you need an interconnected solution. That's what we're building. >> I think that interconnected systems, mindset really is about the bridge to the future. And if you can be with the customer together and build that bridge and cross over together, that's to me is a relationship oriented value proposition. I think that's really needed in this transformative market. So congratulations. I love the mindset there. I've got to ask you. I know you've got a lot of customers and you can't say their names on camera. A lot of large enterprises give us a taste of some of the things they say to you like, "Hey, Venkat, I love your service because blank. What do they, what are some of the anecdotal sayings that customers say about MontyCloud? >> Oh, we have some customers we can talk about. Some of the customers are going to come back on the stage actually St. Louis university is going to be coming on the QV event that's coming up soon, right? So a bunch of customers, we can talk about some customers. We are, you know, deeply working with them and we've solved some problems for them. So what we typically hear from customers is this, right? A lot of vendors come in and ask our teams to up-skill and they teach our teams how to manage cloud. Your solution helps us focus on our KPIs. That's what we repeatedly hear from customers, right? Being able to help the customer. Look, it's not the customers, you know, primary focus to build and maintain a cloud center of excellence that also involves dealing with multiple point tools that involves constantly keeping up with the growing footprint, that involves up-skilling the team constantly. You know, it's great that you have a cloud focus, but every customer that we've engaged with, even the large customers tell us that the fact that they can go back to focusing on their KPIs, whether the application is providing services to their customers, how much uptime is, is, is directly impacting their business. What are the costs of per transaction? Those are the important things they really want to focus on. So consistently our customers are able to come back and validate that when MontyCloud gets involved with them, they're able to shift that focus back to their business, as opposed to trying to focus on things that is basically becoming an essential problem. They need to solve. That's the common theme. We get us feedback and we continuously learn from that and continue to improve that. >> Awesome, great stuff. Venkat, great to have you on again, the CUBE Conversation at The Update, while I got you, take a minute to put a plug in for the company where you guys at on status, state of the company, are you guys looking to hire... sound bites? Anything you want to share? Give a quick minute plug for MontyCloud. >> Yeah, sure thing, John. Hey, we are a startup. We are always hiring. We're always trying to find the smartest people that we want to work with. We want people to come in and kind of show us what to do, right? So give us a shout out. From a growth perspective, John, the market is, you know, booming, right? We are, we are with the small team, which I will give a shout out to my team, right? We have like 23, 23 member team, right? Being able to go deliver to a world-class cloud management platform, expectations and deliver to fortune hundred companies means they are thinking about the problem space deeply. So those who are interested in that kind of, you know, accelerated delivery to customers, you know, do more with less attitude are welcome to engage with us from a self look to the company perspective. Here's what we offer. We offered a free trial today. Our platform can be turned on and start delivering value to customers. In under 10 minutes, we can go to MontyCloud.com, sign up for a free trial, connect their cloud accounts. Within few minutes, they're going to get free recommendations on where they can optimize costs. Where they can improve security. What are the compliance issues they can solve? And they'll get full visibility into the environment, all in just about a few clicks. And that is a value prop our platform offers on an ongoing basis. They can further customize the platform to their needs. So I invite everybody to go try MontyCloud.com. >> All right, Venkat, thanks for coming on. I really appreciate it. Great example of how the cloud can enable startups to be a supplier for the biggest companies in the world. MontyCloud again, start-up successful in the cloud. This is what it's all about. The new model, new, new manufacturing. It's the cloud. I'm John Furrier with The CUBE. Thanks for watching this CUBE Conversation.

>>Hey, welcome to the live panel. My name is Brett. I am your host, and indeed we are live. In fact, if you're curious about that, if you don't believe us, um, let's just show a little bit of the browser real quick to see. Yup. There you go. We're live. So, all right. So how this is going to work is I'm going to bring in some guests and, uh, in one second, and we're going to basically take your questions on the topic designer of the day, that continuous integration testing. Uh, thank you so much to my guests welcoming into the panel. I've got Carlos, Nico and Mandy. Hello everyone. >>Hello? All right, >>Let's go. Let's go around the room and all pretend we don't know each other and that the internet didn't read below the video who we are. Uh, hi, my name is Brett. I am a Docker captain, which means I'm supposed to know something about Docker. I'm coming from Virginia Beach. I'm streaming here from Virginia Beach, Virginia, and, uh, I make videos on the internet and courses on you to me, Carlos. Hey, >>Hey, what's up? I'm Carlos Nunez. I am a solutions architect, VMware. I do solution things with computers. It's fun. I live in Dallas when I'm moving to Houston in a month, which is where I'm currently streaming. I've been all over the Northeast this whole week. So, um, it's been fun and I'm excited to meet with all of you and talk about CIA and Docker. Sure. >>Yeah. Hey everyone. Uh, Nico, Khobar here. I'm a solution engineer at HashiCorp. Uh, I am streaming to you from, uh, the beautiful Austin, Texas. Uh, ignore, ignore the golden gate bridge here. This is from my old apartment in San Francisco. Uh, just, uh, you know, keeping that, to remember all the good days, um, that that lived at. But, uh, anyway, I work at Patrick Corp and I work on all things, automation, um, and cloud and dev ops. Um, and I'm excited to be here and Mandy, >>Hi. Yeah, Mandy Hubbard. I am streaming from Austin, Texas. I am, uh, currently a DX engineer at ship engine. Um, I've worked in QA and that's kind of where I got my, uh, my Docker experience and, um, uh, moving into DX to try and help developers better understand and use our products and be an advocate for them. >>Nice. Well, thank you all for joining me. Uh, I really appreciate you taking the time out of your busy schedule to be here. And so for those of you in chat, the reason we're doing this live, because it's always harder to do things live. The reason we're here is to answer a question. So we didn't come with a bunch of slides and demos or anything like that. We're here to talk amongst ourselves about ideas and really here for you. So we've, we obviously, this is about easy CII, so we're, we're going to try to keep the conversation around testing and continuous integration and all the things that that entails with containers. But we may, we may go down rabbit holes. We may go veer off and start talking about other things, and that's totally fine if it's in the realm of dev ops and containers and developer and ops workflows, like, Hey, it's, it's kinda game. >>And, uh, these people have a wide variety of expertise. They haven't done just testing, right? We, we live in a world where you all kind of have to wear many hats. So feel free to, um, ask what you think is on the top of your mind. And we'll do our best to answer. It may, might not be the best answer or the correct answer, but we're going to do our best. Um, well, let's get it start off. Uh, let's, let's get a couple of topics to start off with. Uh, th the, the easy CGI was my, one of my three ideas. Cause he's the, one of the things that I'm most excited about is the innovation we're seeing around easier testing, faster testing, automated testing, uh, because as much as we've all been doing this stuff for, you know, 15 years, since 20 years since the sort of Jenkins early days, um, it it's, it seems like it's still really hard and it's still a lot of work. >>So, um, let's go around the room real quick, and everybody can just kind of talk for a minute about like your experience with testing and maybe some of your pain points, like what you don't like about our testing world. Um, and we can talk about some pains, cause I think that will lead us to kind of talk about what, what are the things we're seeing now that might be better, uh, ideas about how to do this. I know for me, uh, testing, obviously there's the code part, but just getting it automated, but mostly getting it in the hands of developers so that they can control their own testing. And don't have to go talk to a person to run that test again, or the mysterious Jenkins platform somewhere. I keep mentioning Jenkins cause it's, it is still the dominant player out there. Um, so for me, I'm, I'm, I, I don't like it when I'm walking into a room and there's, there's only one or two people that know how the testing works or know how to make the new tests go into the testing platform and stuff like that. So I'm always trying to free those things so that any of the developers are enabled and empowered to do that stuff. So someone else, Carlos, anybody, um, >>Oh, I have a lot of opinions on that. Having been a QA engineer for most of my career. Um, the shift that we're saying is everyone is dev ops and everyone is QA. Th the issue I see is no one asked developers if they wanted to be QA. Um, and so being the former QA on the team, when there's a problem, even though I'm a developer and we're all running QA, they always tend to come to the one of the former QA engineers. And they're not really owning that responsibility and, um, and digging in. So that's kind of what I'm saying is that we're all expected to test now. And some people, well, some people don't know how it's, uh, for me it was kind of an intuitive skill. It just kind of fit with my personality, but not knowing what to look for, not knowing what to automate, not even understanding how your API end points are used by your front end to know what to test when a change is made. It's really overwhelming for developers. And, um, we're going to need to streamline that and, and hold their hands a little bit until they get their feet wet with also being QA. >>Right. Right. So, um, uh, Carlos, >>Yeah, uh, testing is like, Tesla is one of my favorite subjects to talk about when I'm baring with developers. And a lot of it is because of what Mandy said, right? Like a lot of developers now who used to write a test and say, Hey, QA, go. Um, I wrote my unit tests. Now write the rest of the test. Essentially. Now developers are expected to be able to understand how testing, uh, testing methodologies work, um, in their local environments, right? Like they're supposed to understand how to write an integration tasks federate into and tasks, a component test. And of course, how to write unit tests that aren't just, you know, assert true is true, right? Like more comprehensive, more comprehensive, um, more high touch unit tests, which include things like mocking and stubbing and spine and all that stuff. And, you know, it's not so much getting those tests. Well, I've had a lot of challenges with developers getting those tests to run in Docker because of usually because of dependency hell, but, um, getting developers to understand how to write tests that matter and mean something. Um, it's, it's, it can be difficult, but it's also where I find a lot of the enjoyment of my work comes into play. So yeah. I mean, that's the difficulty I've seen around testing. Um, big subject though. Lots to talk about there. >>Yeah. We've got, we've already got so many questions coming in. You already got an hour's worth of stuff. So, uh, Nico 81st thoughts on that? >>Yeah, I think I definitely agree with, with other folks here on the panel, I think from a, um, the shift from a skillset perspective that's needed to adopt the new technologies, but I think from even from, uh, aside from the organizational, um, and kind of key responsibilities that, that the new developers have to kinda adapt to and, and kind of inherit now, um, there's also from a technical perspective as there's, you know, um, more developers are owning the full stack, including the infrastructure piece. So that adds a lot more to the plate in Tim's oaf, also testing that component that they were not even, uh, responsible for before. Um, and, um, also the second challenge that, you know, I'm seeing is that on, you know, the long list of added, um, uh, tooling and, you know, there's new tool every other day. Um, and, um, that kind of requires more customization to the testing, uh, that each individual team, um, any individual developer Y by extension has to learn. Uh, so the customization, uh, as well as the, kind of the scope that had, uh, you know, now in conferences, the infrastructure piece, um, uh, both of act to the, to the challenges that we're seeing right now for, um, for CGI and overall testing, um, uh, the developers are saying, uh, in, in the market today. >>Yeah. We've got a lot of questions, um, about all the, all the different parts of this. So, uh, let me just go straight to them. Cause that's why we're here is for the people, uh, a lot of people asking about your favorite tools and in one of this is one of the challenges with integration, right? Is, um, there is no, there are dominant players, but there, there is such a variety. I mean, every one of my customers seems like they're using a different workflow and a different set of tools. So, and Hey, we're all here to just talk about what we're, what we're using, uh, you know, whether your favorite tools. So like a lot of the repeated questions are, what are your favorite tools? Like if you could create it from scratch, uh, what would you use? Pierre's asking, you know, GitHub actions sounds like they're a fan of GitHub actions, uh, w you know, mentioning, pushing the ECR and Docker hub and, uh, using vs code pipeline, I guess there may be talking about Azure pipelines. Um, what, what's your preferred way? So, does anyone have any, uh, thoughts on that anyone want to throw out there? Their preferred pipeline of tooling? >>Well, I have to throw out mine. I might as Jenkins, um, like kind of a honorary cloud be at this point, having spoken a couple of times there, um, all of the plugins just make the functionality. I don't love the UI, but I love that it's been around so long. It has so much community support, and there are so many plugins so that if you want to do something, you don't have to write the code it's already been tested. Um, unfortunately I haven't been able to use Jenkins in, uh, since I joined ship engine, we, most of our, um, our, our monolithic core application is, is team city. It's a dotnet application and TeamCity plays really well with.net. Um, didn't love it, uh, Ms. Jenkins. And I'm just, we're just starting some new initiatives that are using GitHub actions, and I'm really excited to learn, to learn those. I think they have a lot of the same functionality that you're looking for, but, um, much more simplified in is right there and get hubs. So, um, the integration is a lot more seamless, but I do have to go on record that my favorite CICT tools Jenkins. >>All right. You heard it here first people. All right. Anyone else? You're muted? I'm muted. Carlin says muted. Oh, Carla says, guest has muted themselves to Carlos. You got to unmute. >>Yes. I did mute myself because I was typing a lot, trying to, you know, try to answer stuff in the chat. And there's a lot of really dark stuff in there. That's okay. Two more times today. So yeah, it's fine. Yeah, no problem. So totally. And it's the best way to start a play more. So I'm just going to go ahead and light it up. Um, for enterprise environments, I actually am a huge fan of Jenkins. Um, it's a tool that people really understand. Um, it has stood the test of time, right? I mean, people were using Hudson, but 15 years ago, maybe longer. And, you know, the way it works, hasn't really changed very much. I mean, Jenkins X is a little different, but, um, the UI and the way it works internally is pretty familiar to a lot of enterprise environments, which is great. >>And also in me, the plugin ecosystem is amazing. There's so many plugins for everything, and you can make your own if you know, Java groovy. I'm sure there's a perfect Kotlin in there, but I haven't tried myself, but it's really great. It's also really easy to write, um, CIS code, which is something I'm a big fan of. So Jenkins files have been, have worked really well for me. I, I know that I can get a little bit more complex as you start to build your own models and such, but, you know, for enterprise enterprise CIO CD, if you want, especially if you want to roll your own or own it yourself, um, Jenkins is the bellwether and for very good reason now for my personal projects. And I see a lot on the chat here, I think y'all, y'all been agreed with me get hub actions 100%, my favorite tool right now. >>Um, I love GitHub actions. It's, it's customizable, it's modular. There's a lot of plugins already. I started using getting that back maybe a week after when GA and there was no documentation or anything. And I still, it was still my favorite CIA tool even then. Um, and you know, the API is really great. There's a lot to love about GitHub actions and, um, and I, and I use it as much as I can from my personal project. So I still have a soft spot for Travis CAI. Um, you know, they got acquired and they're a little different now trying to see, I, I can't, I can't let it go. I just love it. But, um, yeah, I mean, when it comes to Seattle, those are my tools. So light me up in the comments I will respond. Yeah. >>I mean, I, I feel with you on the Travis, the, I think, cause I think that was my first time experiencing, you know, early days get hub open source and like a free CIA tool that I could describe. I think it was the ammo back then. I don't actually remember, but yeah, it was kind of an exciting time from my experience. There was like, oh, this is, this is just there as a service. And I could just use it. It doesn't, it's like get hub it's free from my open source stuff. And so it does have a soft spot in my heart too. So yeah. >>All right. We've got questions around, um, cam, so I'm going to ask some questions. We don't have to have these answers because sometimes they're going to be specific, but I want to call them out because people in chat may have missed that question. And there's probably, you know, that we have smart people in chat too. So there's probably someone that knows the answer to these things. If, if it's not us, um, they're asking about building Docker images in Kubernetes, which to me is always a sore spot because it's Kubernetes does not build images by default. It's not meant for that out of the gate. And, uh, what is the best way to do this without having to use privileged containers, which privileged containers just implying that yeah, you, you, it probably has more privileges than by default as a container in Kubernetes. And that is a hard thing because, uh, I don't, I think Docker doesn't lie to do that out of the gate. So I don't know if anyone has an immediate answer to that. That's a pretty technical one, but if you, if you know the answer to that in chat, call it out. >>Um, >>I had done this, uh, but I'm pretty sure I had to use a privileged, um, container and install the Docker Damon on the Kubernetes cluster. And I CA I can't give you a better solution. Um, I've done the same. So, >>Yeah, uh, Chavonne asks, um, back to the Jenkins thing, what's the easiest way to integrate Docker into a Jenkins CICB pipeline. And that's one of the challenges I find with Jenkins because I don't claim to be the expert on Jenkins. Is there are so many plugins because of this, of this such a huge ecosystem. Um, when you go searching for Docker, there's a lot that comes back, right. So I, I don't actually have a preferred way because every team I find uses it differently. Um, I don't know, is there a, do you know if there's a Jenkins preferred, a default plugin? I don't even know for Docker. Oh, go ahead. Yeah. Sorry for Docker. And jacon sorry, Docker plugins for Jenkins. Uh, as someone's asking like the preferred or easy way to do that. Um, and I don't, I don't know the back into Jenkins that well, so, >>Well, th the new, the new way that they're doing, uh, Docker builds with the pipeline, which is more declarative versus the groovy. It's really simple, and their documentation is really good. They, um, they make it really easy to say, run this in this image. So you can pull down, you know, public images and add your own layers. Um, so I don't know the name of that plugin, uh, but I can certainly take a minute after this session and going and get that. Um, but if you really are overwhelmed by the plugins, you can just write your, you know, your shell command in Jenkins. You could just by, you know, doing everything in bash, calling the Docker, um, Damon directly, and then getting it working just to see that end to end, and then start browsing for plugins to see if you even want to use those. >>The plugins will allow more integration from end to end. Some of the things that you input might be available later on in the process for having to manage that yourself. But, you know, you don't have to use any of the plugins. You can literally just, you know, do a block where you write your shell command and get it working, and then decide if, for plugins for you. Um, I think it's always under important to understand what is going on under the hood before you, before you adopt the magic of a plugin, because, um, once you have a problem, if you're, if it's all a lockbox to you, it's going to be more difficult to troubleshoot. It's kind of like learning, get command line versus like get cracking or something. Once, once you get in a bind, if you don't understand the underlying steps, it's really hard to get yourself out of a bind, versus if you understand what the plugin or the app is doing, then, um, you can get out of situations a lot easier. That's a good place. That's, that's where I'd start. >>Yeah. Thank you. Um, Camden asks better to build test environment images, every commit in CII. So this is like one of those opinions of we're all gonna have some different, uh, or build on build images on every commit, leveraging the cash, or build them once outside the test pile pipeline. Um, what say you people? >>Uh, well, I I've seen both and generally speaking, my preference is, um, I guess the ant, the it's a consultant answer, right? I think it depends on what you're trying to do, right. So if you have a lot of small changes that are being made and you're creating images for each of those commits, you're going to have a lot of images in your, in your registry, right? And on top of that, if you're building those images, uh, through CAI frequently, if you're using Docker hub or something like that, you might run into rate limiting issues because of Docker's new rate, limiting, uh, rate limits that they put in place. Um, but that might be beneficial if the, if being able to roll back between those small changes while you're testing is important to you. Uh, however, if all you care about is being able to use Docker images, um, or being able to correlate versions to your Docker images, or if you're the type of team that doesn't even use him, uh, does he even use, uh, virgins in your image tags? Then I would think that that might be a little, much you might want to just have in your CIO. You might want to have a stage that builds your Docker images and Docker image and pushes it into your registry, being done first particular branches instead of having to be done on every commit regardless of branch. But again, it really depends on the team. It really depends on what you're building. It really depends on your workflow. It can depend on a number of things like a curse sometimes too. Yeah. Yeah. >>Once had two points here, you know, I've seen, you know, the pattern has been at every, with every, uh, uh, commit, assuming that you have the right set of tests that would kind of, uh, you would benefit from actually seeing, um, the, the, the, the testing workflow go through and can detect any issue within, within the build or whatever you're trying to test against. But if you're just a building without the appropriate set of tests, then you're just basically consuming almond, adding time, as well as all the, the image, uh, stories associated with it without treaty reaping the benefit of, of, of this pattern. Uh, and the second point is, again, I think if you're, if you're going to end up doing a per commit, uh, definitely recommend having some type of, uh, uh, image purging, um, uh, and, and, and garbage collection process to ensure that you're not just wasting, um, all the stories needed and also, um, uh, optimizing your, your bill process, because that will end up being the most time-consuming, um, um, you know, within, within your pipeline. So this is my 2 cents on this. >>Yeah, that's good stuff. I mean, those are both of those are conversations that could lead us into the rabbit hole for the rest of the day on storage management, uh, you know, CP CPU minutes for, uh, you know, your build stuff. I mean, if you're in any size team, more than one or two people, you immediately run into headaches with cost of CIA, because we have now the problem of tools, right? We have so many tools. We can have the CIS system burning CPU cycles all day, every day, if we really wanted to. And so you re very quickly, I think, especially if you're on every commit on every branch, like that gets you into a world of cost mitigation, and you probably are going to have to settle somewhere in the middle on, uh, between the budget, people that are saying you're spending way too much money on the CII platform, uh, because of all these CPU cycles, and then the developers who would love to have everything now, you know, as fast as possible and the biggest, biggest CPU's, and the biggest servers, and have the bills, because the bills can never go fast enough, right. >>There's no end to optimizing your build workflow. Um, we have another question on that. This is another topic that we'll all probably have different takes on is, uh, basically, uh, version tags, right? So on images, we, we have a very established workflow in get for how we make commits. We have commit shots. We have, uh, you know, we know get tags and there's all these things there. And then we go into images and it's just this whole new world that's opened up. Like there's no real consensus. Um, so what, what are your thoughts on the strategy for teams in their image tag? Again, another, another culture thing. Um, commander, >>I mean, I'm a fan of silver when we have no other option. Um, it's just clean and I like the timestamp, you know, exactly when it was built. Um, I don't really see any reason to use another, uh, there's just normal, incremental, um, you know, numbering, but I love the fact that you can pull any tag and know exactly when it was created. So I'm a big fan of bar, if you can make that work for your organization. >>Yep. People are mentioned that in chat, >>So I like as well. Uh, I'm a big fan of it. I think it's easy to be able to just be as easy to be able to signify what a major changes versus a minor change versus just a hot fix or, you know, some or some kind of a bad fix. The problem that I've found with having teams adopt San Bernardo becomes answering these questions and being able to really define what is a major change, what is a minor change? What is a patch, right? And this becomes a bit of an overhead or not so much of an overhead, but, uh, uh, uh, a large concern for teams who have never done versioning before, or they never been responsible for their own versioning. Um, in fact, you know, I'm running into that right now, uh, with, with a client that I'm working with, where a lot, I'm working with a lot of teams, helping them move their applications from a legacy production environment into a new one. >>And in doing so, uh, versioning comes up because Docker images, uh, have tags and usually the tax correlate to versions, but some teams over there, some teams that I'm working with are only maintaining a script and others are maintaining a fully fledged JAK, three tier application, you know, with lots of dependencies. So telling the script, telling the team that maintains a script, Hey, you know, you should use somber and you should start thinking about, you know, what's major, what's my number what's patch. That might be a lot for them. And for someone or a team like that, I might just suggest using commit shots as your versions until you figure that out, or maybe using, um, dates as your version, but for the more for the team, with the larger application, they probably already know the answers to those questions. In which case they're either already using Sember or they, um, or they may be using some other version of the strategy and might be in December, might suit them better. So, um, you're going to hear me say, it depends a lot, and I'm just going to say here, it depends. Cause it really does. Carlos. >>I think you hit on something interesting beyond just how to version, but, um, when to consider it a major release and who makes those decisions, and if you leave it to engineers to version, you're kind of pushing business decisions down the pipe. Um, I think when it's a minor or a major should be a business decision and someone else needs to make that call someone closer to the business should be making that call as to when we want to call it major. >>That's a really good point. And I add some, I actually agree. Um, I absolutely agree with that. And again, it really depends on the team that on the team and the scope of it, it depends on the scope that they're maintaining, right? And so it's a business application. Of course, you're going to have a product manager and you're going to have, you're going to have a product manager who's going to want to make that call because that version is going to be out in marketing. People are going to use it. They're going to refer to and support calls. They're going to need to make those decisions. Sember again, works really, really well for that. Um, but for a team that's maintaining the scripts, you know, I don't know, having them say, okay, you must tell me what a major version is. It's >>A lot, but >>If they want it to use some birds great too, which is why I think going back to what you originally said, Sember in the absence of other options. I think that's a good strategy. >>Yeah. There's a, there's a, um, catching up on chat. I'm not sure if I'm ever going to catch up, but there's a lot of people commenting on their favorite CII systems and it's, and it, it just goes to show for the, the testing and deployment community. Like how many tools there are out there, how many tools there are to support the tools that you're using. Like, uh, it can be a crazy wilderness. And I think that's, that's part of the art of it, uh, is that these things are allowing us to build our workflows to the team's culture. Um, and, uh, but I do think that, you know, getting into like maybe what we hope to be at what's next is I do hope that we get to, to try to figure out some of these harder problems of consistency. Uh, one of the things that led me to Docker at the beginning to begin with was the fact that it wa it created a consistent packaging solution for me to get my code, you know, off of, off of my site of my local system, really, and into the server. >>And that whole workflow would at least the thing that I was making at each step was going to be the same thing used. Right. And that, that was huge. Uh, it was also, it also took us a long time to get there. Right. We all had to, like Docker was one of those ones that decade kind of ideas of let's solidify the, enter, get the consensus of the community around this idea. And we, and it's not perfect. Uh, you know, the Docker Docker file is not the most perfect way to describe how to make your app, but it is there and we're all using it. And now I'm looking for that next piece, right. Then hopefully the next step in that, um, that where we can all arrive at a consensus so that once you hop teams, you know, okay. We all knew Docker. We now, now we're all starting to get to know the manifests, but then there's this big gap in the middle where it's like, it might be one of a dozen things. Um, you know, so >>Yeah, yeah. To that, to that, Brett, um, you know, uh, just maybe more of a shameless plug here and wanting to kind of talk about one of the things that I'm on. So excited, but I work, I work at Tasha Corp. I don't know anyone, or I don't know if many people have heard of, um, you know, we tend to focus a lot on workflows versus technologies, right. Because, you know, as you can see, even just looking at the chat, there's, you know, ton of opinions on the different tooling, right. And, uh, imagine having, you know, I'm working with clients that have 10,000 developers. So imagine taking the folks in the chat and being partnered with one organization or one company and having to make decisions on how to build software. Um, but there's no way you can conversion one or, or one way or one tool, uh, and that's where we're facing in the industry. >>So one of the things that, uh, I'm pretty excited about, and I don't know if it's getting as much traction as you know, we've been focused on it. This is way point, which is a project, an open source project. I believe we got at least, uh, last year, um, which is, it's more of, uh, it's, it is aim to address that really, uh, uh, Brad set on, you know, to come to tool to, uh, make it extremely easy and simple. And, you know, to describe how you want to build, uh, deploy or release your application, uh, in, in a consistent way, regardless of the tools. So similar to how you can think of Terraform and having that pluggability to say Terraform apply or plan against any cloud infrastructure, uh, without really having to know exactly the details of how to do it, uh, this is what wave one is doing. Um, and it can be applied with, you know, for the CIA, uh, framework. So, you know, task plugability into, uh, you know, circle CEI tests to Docker helm, uh, Kubernetes. So that's the, you know, it's, it's a hard problem to solve, but, um, I'm hopeful that that's the path that we're, you know, we'll, we'll eventually get to. So, um, hope, you know, you can, you can, uh, see some of the, you know, information, data on it, on, on HashiCorp site, but I mean, I'm personally excited about it. >>Yeah. Uh I'm to gonna have to check that out. And, um, I told you on my live show, man, we'll talk about it, but talk about it for a whole hour. Uh, so there's another question here around, uh, this, this is actually a little bit more detailed, but it is one that I think a lot of people deal with and I deal with a lot too, is essentially the question is from Cameron, uh, D essentially, do you use compose in your CIO or not Docker compose? Uh, because yes I do. Yeah. Cause it, it, it, it solves so many problems am and not every CGI can, I don't know, there's some problems with a CIO is trying to do it for me. So there are pros and cons and I feel like I'm still on the fence about it because I use it all the time, but also it's not perfect. It's not always meant for CIA. And CIA sometimes tries to do things for you, like starting things up before you start other parts and having that whole order, uh, ordering problem of things anyway. W thoughts and when have thoughts. >>Yes. I love compose. It's one of my favorite tools of all time. Um, and the reason why it's, because what I often find I'm working with teams trying to actually let me walk that back, because Jack on the chat asked a really interesting question about what, what, what the hardest thing about CIS for a lot of teams. And in my experience, the hardest thing is getting teams to build an app that is the same app as what's built in production. A lot of CGI does things that are totally different than what you would do in your local, in your local dev. And as a result of that, you get, you got this application that either doesn't work locally, or it does work, but it's a completely different animal than what you would get in production. Right? So what I've found in trying to get teams to bridge that gap by basically taking their CGI, shifting the CII left, I hate the shift left turn, but I'll use it. >>I'm shifting the CIO left to your local development is trying to say, okay, how do we build an app? How do we, how do we build mot dependencies of that app so that we can build so that we can test our app? How do we run tests, right? How do we build, how do we get test data? And what I found is that trying to get teams to do all this in Docker, which is normally a first for a lot of teams that I'm working with, trying to get them all to do all of this. And Docker means you're running Docker, build a lot running Docker, run a lot. You're running Docker, RM a lot. You ran a lot of Docker, disparate Docker commands. And then on top of that, trying to bridge all of those containers together into a single network can be challenging without compose. >>So I like using a, to be able to really easily categorize and compartmentalize a lot of the things that are going to be done in CII, like building a Docker image, running tests, which is you're, you're going to do it in CII anyway. So running tests, building the image, pushing it to the registry. Well, I wouldn't say pushing it to the registry, but doing all the things that you would do in local dev, but in the same network that you might have a mock database or a mock S3 instance or some of something else. Um, so it's just easy to take all those Docker compose commands and move them into your Yammel file using the hub actions or your dankest Bob using Jenkins, or what have you. Right. It's really, it's really portable that way, but it doesn't work for every team. You know, for example, if you're just a team that, you know, going back to my script example, if it's a really simple script that does one thing on a somewhat routine basis, then that might be a lot of overhead. Um, in that case, you know, you can get away with just Docker commands. It's not a big deal, but the way I looked at it is if I'm, if I'm building, if I build something that's similar to a make bile or rate file, or what have you, then I'm probably gonna want to use Docker compose. If I'm working with Docker, that's, that's a philosophy of values, right? >>So I'm also a fan of Docker compose. And, um, you know, to your point, Carlos, the whole, I mean, I'm also a fan of shifting CEI lift and testing lift, but if you put all that logic in your CTI, um, it changes the L the local development experience from the CGI experience. Versus if you put everything in a compose file so that what you build locally is the same as what you build in CGI. Um, you're going to have a better experience because you're going to be testing something more, that's closer to what you're going to be releasing. And it's also very easy to look at a compose file and kind of, um, understand what the dependencies are and what's happening is very readable. And once you move that stuff to CGI, I think a lot of developers, you know, they're going to be intimidated by the CGI, um, whatever the scripting language is, it's going to be something they're going to have to wrap their head around. >>Um, but they're not gonna be able to use it locally. You're going to have to have another local solution. So I love the idea of a composed file use locally, um, especially if he can Mount the local workspace so that they can do real time development and see their changes in the exact same way as it's going to be built and tested in CGI. It gives developers a high level of confidence. And then, you know, you're less likely to have issues because of discrepancies between how it was built in your local test environment versus how it's built in NCI. And so Docker compose really lets you do all of that in a way that makes your solution more portable, portable between local dev and CGI and reduces the number of CGI cycles to get, you know, the test, the test data that you need. So that's why I like it for really, for local dev. >>It'll be interesting. Um, I don't know if you all were able to see the keynote, but there was a, there was a little bit, not a whole lot, but a little bit talk of the Docker, compose V two, which has now built into the Docker command line. And so now we're shifting from the Python built compose, which was a separate package. You could that one of the challenges was getting it into your CA solution because if you don't have PIP and you got down on the binary and the binary wasn't available for every platform and, uh, it was a PI installer. It gets a little nerdy into how that works, but, uh, and the team is now getting, be able to get unified with it. Now that it's in Golang and it's, and it's plugged right into the Docker command line, it hopefully will be easier to distribute, easier to, to use. >>And you won't have to necessarily have dependencies inside of where you're running it because there'll be a statically compiled binary. Um, so I've been playing with that, uh, this year. And so like training myself to do Docker going from Docker dash compose to Docker space, compose. It is a thing I I'm almost to the point of having to write a shell replacement. Yeah. Alias that thing. Um, but, um, I'm excited to see what that's going, cause there's already new features in it. And it, these built kit by default, like there's all these things. And I, I love build kit. We could make a whole session on build kit. Um, in fact there's actually, um, maybe going on right now, or right around this time, there is a session on, uh, from Solomon hikes, the seat, uh, co-founder of Docker, former CTO, uh, on build kit using, uh, using some other tool on top of build kit or whatever. >>So that, that would be interesting for those of you that are not watching that one. Cause you're here, uh, to do a check that one out later. Um, all right. So another good question was caching. So another one, another area where there is no wrong answers probably, and everyone has a different story. So the question is, what are your thoughts on CII build caching? There's often a debate between security. This is from Quentin. Thank you for this great question. There's often a debate between security reproducibility and build speeds. I haven't found a good answer so far. I will just throw my hat in the ring and say that the more times you want to build, like if you're trying to build every commit or every commit, if you're building many times a day, the more caching you need. So like the more times you're building, the more caching you're gonna likely want. And in most cases caching doesn't bite you in the butt, but that could be, yeah, we, can we get the bit about that? So, yeah. Yeah. >>I'm going to quote Carlos again and say, it depends on, on, you know, how you're talking, you know, what you're trying to build and I'm quoting your colors. Um, yeah, it's, it's got, it's gonna depend because, you know, there are some instances where you definitely want to use, you know, depends on the frequency that you're building and how you're building. Um, it's you would want to actually take advantage of cashing functionalities, um, for the build, uh, itself. Um, but if, um, you know, as you mentioned, there could be some instances where you would want to disable, um, any caching because you actually want to either pull a new packages or, um, you know, there could be some security, um, uh, disadvantages related to security aspects that would, you know, you know, using a cache version of, uh, image layer, for example, could be a problem. And you, you know, if you have a fleet of build, uh, engines, you don't have a good grasp of where they're being cashed. We would have to, um, disable caching in that, in that, um, in those instances. So it, it would depend. >>Yeah, it's, it's funny you have that problem on both sides of cashing. Like there are things that, especially in Docker world, they will cash automatically. And, and then, and then you maybe don't realize that some of that caching could be bad. It's, it's actually using old, uh, old assets, old artifacts, and then there's times where you would expect it to cash, that it doesn't cash. And then you have to do something extra to enable that caching, especially when you're dealing with that cluster of, of CIS servers. Right. And the cloud, the whole clustering problem with caching is even more complex, but yeah, >>But that's, that's when, >>Uh, you know, ever since I asked you to start using build kits and able to build kit, you know, between it's it's it's reader of Boston in, in detecting word, you know, where in, in the bill process needs to cash, as well as, uh, the, the, um, you know, the process. I don't think I've seen any other, uh, approach there that comes close to how efficient, uh, that process can become how much time it can actually save. Uh, but again, I think, I think that's, for me that had been my default approach, unless I actually need something that I would intentionally to disable caching for that purpose, but the benefits, at least for me, the benefits of, um, how bill kit actually been processing my bills, um, from the builds as well as, you know, using the cash up until, you know, how it detects the, the difference in, in, in the assets within the Docker file had been, um, you know, uh, pretty, you know, outweigh the disadvantages that it brings in. So it, you know, take it each case by case. And based on that, determine if you want to use it, but definitely recommend those enabling >>In the absence of a reason not to, um, I definitely think that it's a good approach in terms of speed. Um, yeah, I say you cash until you have a good reason not to personally >>Catch by default. There you go. I think you catch by default. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, the trick is, well, one, it's not always enabled by default, especially when you're talking about cross server. So that's a, that's a complexity for your SIS admins, or if you're on the cloud, you know, it's usually just an option. Um, I think it also is this, this veers into a little bit of, uh, the more you cash the in a lot of cases with Docker, like the, from like, if you're from images and checked every single time, if you're not pinning every single thing, if you're not painting your app version, you're at your MPN versions to the exact lock file definition. Like there's a lot of these things where I'm I get, I get sort of, I get very grouchy with teams that sort of let it, just let it all be like, yeah, we'll just build two images and they're totally going to have different dependencies because someone happened to update that thing and after whatever or MPM or, or, and so I get grouchy about that, cause I want to lock it all down, but I also know that that's going to create administrative burden. >>Like the team is now going to have to manage versions in a very much more granular way. Like, do we need to version two? Do we need to care about curl? You know, all that stuff. Um, so that's, that's kind of tricky, but when you get to, when you get to certain version problems, uh, sorry, uh, cashing problems, you, you, you don't want those set those caches to happen because it, if you're from image changes and you're not constantly checking for a new image, and if you're not pinning that V that version, then now you, you don't know whether you're getting the latest version of Davion or whatever. Um, so I think that there's, there's an art form to the more you pen, the less you have, the less, you have to be worried about things changing, but the more you pen, the, uh, all your versions of everything all the way down the stack, the more administrative stuff, because you're gonna have to manually change every one of those. >>So I think it's a balancing act for teams. And as you mature, I to find teams, they tend to pin more until they get to a point of being more comfortable with their testing. So the other side of this argument is if you trust your testing, then you, and you have better testing to me, the less likely to the subtle little differences in versions have to be penned because you can get away with those minor or patch level version changes. If you're thoroughly testing your app, because you're trusting your testing. And this gets us into a whole nother rant, but, uh, yeah, but talking >>About penny versions, if you've got a lot of dependencies isn't that when you would want to use the cash the most and not have to rebuild all those layers. Yeah. >>But if you're not, but if you're not painting to the exact patch version and you are caching, then you're not technically getting the latest versions because it's not checking for all the time. It's a weird, there's a lot of this subtle nuance that people don't realize until it's a problem. And that's part of the, the tricky part of allow this stuff, is it, sometimes the Docker can be almost so much magic out of the box that you, you, you get this all and it all works. And then day two happens and you built it a second time and you've got a new version of open SSL in there and suddenly it doesn't work. Um, so anyway, uh, that was a great question. I've done the question on this, on, uh, from heavy. What do you put, where do you put testing in your pipeline? Like, so testing the code cause there's lots of types of testing, uh, because this pipeline gets longer and longer and Docker building images as part of it. And so he says, um, before staging or after staging, but before production, where do you put it? >>Oh man. Okay. So, um, my, my main thought on this is, and of course this is kind of religious flame bait, so sure. You know, people are going to go into the compensation wrong. Carlos, the boy is how I like to think about it. So pretty much in every stage or every environment that you're going to be deploying your app into, or that your application is going to touch. My idea is that there should be a build of a Docker image that has all your applications coded in, along with its dependencies, there's testing that tests your application, and then there's a deployment that happens into whatever infrastructure there is. Right. So the testing, they can get tricky though. And the type of testing you do, I think depends on the environment that you're in. So if you're, let's say for example, your team and you have, you have a main branch and then you have feature branches that merged into the main branch. >>You don't have like a pre-production branch or anything like that. So in those feature branches, whenever I'm doing CGI that way, I know when I freak, when I cut my poll request, that I'm going to merge into main and everything's going to work in my feature branches, I'm going to want to probably just run unit tests and maybe some component tests, which really, which are just, you know, testing that your app can talk to another component or another part, another dependency, like maybe a database doing tests like that, that don't take a lot of time that are fascinating and right. A lot of would be done at the beach branch level and in my opinion, but when you're going to merge that beach branch into main, as part of a release in that activity, you're going to want to be able to do an integration tasks, to make sure that your app can actually talk to all the other dependencies that it talked to. >>You're going to want to do an end to end test or a smoke test, just to make sure that, you know, someone that actually touches the application, if it's like a website can actually use the website as intended and it meets the business cases and all that, and you might even have testing like performance testing, low performance load testing, or security testing, compliance testing that would want to happen in my opinion, when you're about to go into production with a release, because those are gonna take a long time. Those are very expensive. You're going to have to cut new infrastructure, run those tests, and it can become quite arduous. And you're not going to want to run those all the time. You'll have the resources, uh, builds will be slower. Uh, release will be slower. It will just become a mess. So I would want to save those for when I'm about to go into production. Instead of doing those every time I make a commit or every time I'm merging a feature ranch into a non main branch, that's the way I look at it, but everything does a different, um, there's other philosophies around it. Yeah. >>Well, I don't disagree with your build test deploy. I think if you're going to deploy the code, it needs to be tested. Um, at some level, I mean less the same. You've got, I hate the term smoke tests, cause it gives a false sense of security, but you have some mental minimum minimal amount of tests. And I would expect the developer on the feature branch to add new tests that tested that feature. And that would be part of the PR why those tests would need to pass before you can merge it, merge it to master. So I agree that there are tests that you, you want to run at different stages, but the earlier you can run the test before going to production. Um, the fewer issues you have, the easier it is to troubleshoot it. And I kind of agree with what you said, Carlos, about the longer running tests like performance tests and things like that, waiting to the end. >>The only problem is when you wait until the end to run those performance tests, you kind of end up deploying with whatever performance you have. It's, it's almost just an information gathering. So if you don't run your performance test early on, um, and I don't want to go down a rabbit hole, but performance tests can be really useless if you don't have a goal where it's just information gap, uh, this is, this is the performance. Well, what did you expect it to be? Is it good? Is it bad? They can get really nebulous. So if performance is really important, um, you you're gonna need to come up with some expectations, preferably, you know, set up the business level, like what our SLA is, what our response times and have something to shoot for. And then before you're getting to production. If you have targets, you can test before staging and you can tweak the code before staging and move that performance initiative. Sorry, Carlos, a little to the left. Um, but if you don't have a performance targets, then it's just a check box. So those are my thoughts. I like to test before every deployment. Right? >>Yeah. And you know what, I'm glad that you, I'm glad that you brought, I'm glad that you brought up Escalades and performance because, and you know, the definition of performance says to me, because one of the things that I've seen when I work with teams is that oftentimes another team runs a P and L tests and they ended, and the development team doesn't really have too much insight into what's going on there. And usually when I go to the performance team and say, Hey, how do you run your performance test? It's usually just a generic solution for every single application that they support, which may or may not be applicable to the application team that I'm working with specifically. So I think it's a good, I'm not going to dig into it. I'm not going to dig into the rabbit hole SRE, but it is a good bridge into SRE when you start trying to define what does reliability mean, right? >>Because the reason why you test performance, it's test reliability to make sure that when you cut that release, that customers would go to your site or use your application. Aren't going to see regressions in performance and are not going to either go to another website or, you know, lodge in SLA violation or something like that. Um, it does, it does bridge really well with defining reliability and what SRE means. And when you have, when you start talking about that, that's when you started talking about how often do I run? How often do I test my reliability, the reliability of my application, right? Like, do I have nightly tasks in CGI that ensure that my main branch or, you know, some important branch I does not mean is meeting SLA is meeting SLR. So service level objectives, um, or, you know, do I run tasks that ensure that my SLA is being met in production? >>Like whenever, like do I use, do I do things like game days where I test, Hey, if I turn something off or, you know, if I deploy this small broken code to production and like what happens to my performance? What happens to my security and compliance? Um, you can, that you can go really deep into and take creating, um, into creating really robust tests that cover a lot of different domains. But I liked just using build test deploy is the overall answer to that because I find that you're going to have to build your application first. You're going to have to test it out there and build it, and then you're going to want to deploy it after you test it. And that order generally ensures that you're releasing software. That works. >>Right. Right. Um, I was going to ask one last question. Um, it's going to have to be like a sentence answer though, for each one of you. Uh, this is, uh, do you lint? And if you lint, do you lent all the things, if you do, do you fail the linters during your testing? Yes or no? I think it's going to depend on the culture. I really do. Sorry about it. If we >>Have a, you know, a hook, uh, you know, on the get commit, then theoretically the developer can't get code there without running Melinta anyway, >>So, right, right. True. Anyone else? Anyone thoughts on that? Linting >>Nice. I saw an additional question online thing. And in the chat, if you would introduce it in a multi-stage build, um, you know, I was wondering also what others think about that, like typically I've seen, you know, with multi-stage it's the most common use case is just to produce the final, like to minimize the, the, the, the, the, the image size and produce a final, you know, thin, uh, layout or thin, uh, image. Uh, so if it's not for that, like, I, I don't, I haven't seen a lot of, you know, um, teams or individuals who are actually within a multi-stage build. There's nothing really against that, but they think the number one purpose of doing multi-stage had been just producing the minimalist image. Um, so just wanted to kind of combine those two answers in one, uh, for sure. >>Yeah, yeah, sure. Um, and with that, um, thank you all for the great questions. We are going to have to wrap this up and we could go for another hour if we all had the time. And if Dr. Khan was a 24 hour long event and it didn't sadly, it's not. So we've got to make room for the next live panel, which will be Peter coming on and talking about security with some developer ex security experts. And I wanted to thank again, thank you all three of you for being here real quick, go around the room. Um, uh, where can people reach out to you? I am, uh, at Bret Fisher on Twitter. You can find me there. Carlos. >>I'm at dev Mandy with a Y D E N D Y that's me, um, >>Easiest name ever on Twitter, Carlos and DFW on LinkedIn. And I also have a LinkedIn learning course. So if you check me out on my LinkedIn learning, >>Yeah. I'm at Nicola Quebec. Um, one word, I'll put it in the chat as well on, on LinkedIn, as well as, uh, uh, as well as Twitter. Thanks for having us, Brett. Yeah. Thanks for being here. >>Um, and, and you all stay around. So if you're in the room with us chatting, you're gonna, you're gonna, if you want to go to see the next live panel, I've got to go back to the beginning and do that whole thing, uh, and find the next, because this one will end, but we'll still be in chat for a few minutes. I think the chat keeps going. I don't actually know. I haven't tried it yet. So we'll find out here in a minute. Um, but thanks you all for being here, I will be back a little bit later, but, uh, coming up next on the live stuff is Peter Wood security. Ciao. Bye.

(upbeat music) >> Well, hello everyone, John Walls here on theCUBE as we continue our CUBE conversations as part of the AWS Startup Showcase with Ariel Assaraf who is the CEO and co-founder of Coralogix based in Tel Aviv. And Ariel, thanks for joining us, especially under these trying circumstances I'm sure many people watching fully appreciate what's going on in Israel right now with the bombings that are happening on a perpetual basis. And I just hope you and family, friends and your coworkers are doing well and staying as safe as possible. >> Thank you very much, John. Yeah, this is a surreal period of time where we're in the office then occasionally going to the shelter for a couple minutes and then getting back to coding and planning. So yeah, thank you. >> Well, certainly take care and you're very much on our thoughts and in our hearts right now and we wish you all the well and safety. Let's talk about Coralogix though. This is obviously it's your baby and entering the wild world of data these days this exponential growth of data. You and I were talking about really the untapped potential of data a little bit early before the interview. So let's talk about maybe the genesis of Coralogix a little bit and why you came up with this concept and then the unique platform that you've now established to really help your clients make some sense of these vast reams of data that they have at their disposal. >> Yeah, I think that's a very interesting topic that a lot of companies are starting to now address each one with its own angle. We decided to go with the real-time streaming analytics approach. The problem starts with data growing exponentially like you mentioned, but it's not just growing exponentially it's growing faster than revenue. What happens is that, companies that are bound to the cost of data are getting to a point where their margins and our unit economics are being slaughtered by the amount of data that they need to analyze whether it's for BI or marketing, and certainly observability which is probably the largest data producer inside any organization. And what typically companies tend to do is to start cherry pick data. So they only collect relevant information or only collect areas or only collect specific servers or specific environments. And that causes that statistic you just mentioned from the MIT research, showing that 99.5 of the data remains untapped or unanalyzed. When we looked at it, we thought that, you want to monitor that data at a high level. You want to analyze it automatically or manually or visualize it with good performance. And so the approach that existed/exists in the market until today is to use storage tiers. But then you have to compromise the quality and the speed of analytics. And we chose instead of that, to unlike everyone that index and then analyze to ingest, analyze everything in real time, including the most stateful transformation and stateful analytics and only then store what matters that way giving broader coverage and allowing companies economically and also in terms of scale, to send everything get the full analytics layer that they need and basically improve both their businesses and their performance. >> Yeah, it sounds so sensible. It sounds so simple too. Right, we're just going to analyze data as it comes in real time, we'll make sense of it, we'll process that, we'll make it actionable and boom off we go. But obviously, as you know this is an extraordinarily complex series of operations occurring now especially in the microservices world, right? Because you have all these inputs and all these instances happening simultaneously in different environments. So untangle that for me a little bit in terms of microservices now, the complexity that that creates and your approach to that. >> Yeah. So two things that happen. One, there are more services in each company. Two, there are more versions uploaded to each service every day. So the world of CICB combined with the world of microservices creates a lot of uncertainty. On one hand that's great because you have less decoupling. You can go faster, you can be faster to market respond to the market faster. You can analyze data in specific units that allows you more flexibility and you can release a lot more. On the other hand, it gets much harder to triage, to figure out what specific microservice is causing a problem to monitor the communication between different microservices. And certainly to understand, what is the version that broke something? A lot of software problems come after upgrades or configuration changes. And these two factors together, they generate a lot of data that you need to start monitoring and analyze. Now, like you're saying, analyzing in real time that's been done in the past. That doesn't sound too complex but what happens is that the answer from real-time streaming was only applied to stateless things. Meaning, let me know when you see something. You see an event, send me an alert. You see a metric, send me an alert. What happens is that, it's still missing the longer term analytics. So it's some sort of an oxymoron to say, on one hand I'm doing real-time streaming on the other hand, I want to give you analytics that rely on a long-term state. Let me know if something happened more than it did last week. Let me know if something happened for the first time this month. Clustered a data based on a learning algorithm that learns the data continuously throughout the entire history of time. And this is Streama, the technology that we created that does the real-time streaming but also involves, components that store the state of the system at any given point in time. So while other solutions or other approaches use the storage as the state. So if I want to know what happened a week ago, I just go to the storage and see what's in there from last week. Now we hold the snapshot of state of everything relevant whether we automatically discovered or the customer defined it and make sure that our customers can go back in time and compare versions or compare matrix or compare graphs and see how specific versions affected specific microservices and how specific microservices affected their entire production systems. >> So where, or help me out here just in terms of cost efficiency, then now, if you kind of, you're not eliminating storage obviously, but you're kind of shifting responsibilities here or shifting process a little bit, right? And making it a little more accessible on a real-time basis. What kind of cost efficiencies do you get out of that, in terms of not having to go to storage for everything and dig everything out from a week or two weeks or a month ago? >> Yeah, that's a great question. So it affects multiple areas there. First of all, storage is one of the areas where you can least optimize because it is what it is besides compression that's been invented years ago and we're pretty much maxed out there. There's not a lot of waste to really save on storage. So what companies do they try to put it on lower tier storage, but then you lose performance. What we do is we bound ourselves only to CPU and CPU, when you do analytics, you can improve and optimize to the max and get to a point where you auto-scale analyze all data in real time, get better results and you can continuously improve your code and your microservices in a way that makes them more efficient. We're talking about roughly 70, 75% of savings when we compare that to the closest solution in our space. But it's more than that actually. We believe that at the end of the day the storage approach is not going to be a feasible because storage doesn't scale great, like any, you know, any CPU that you increase, you get better performance, you get faster performance, you get more power. But when you increase storage size when you store more data for a longer term you actually lose performance. It's actually slower, it's more cluttered. And so what happens is that companies that need long-term analytics one, they have to use the storage. They can do it in real time, but two, they also have to have that storage stored for a very long period of time. So it exponentially grows. And we believe that we'll come to an era because data grows exponentially and many of our users are engineers that understand exponential growth. It's going to get to a point where it's almost impossible to write all the data to the disk and then companies are going to need to compromise again. So we feel that the market is going to a place where you'd like to get the analytics taken out of the data and only relevant information for the analytics being stored because the matrix and the logs and the traces they are a means to an end. They're not the purpose for which we are actually generating and storing them. >> Right. And that's what your clients are all about too. Right? Get me the need, you know, get me the gold, the data, you know, that I actually need and help me separate the wheat from the chaff here. What about AWS? How did they come into play? Or what about your relationship with them and how has that developed and currently where does that sit? >> Yes. So we actually moved to AWS about two years ago and moved our entire production and built it on the AWS infrastructure. Our infrastructure is entirely on Kubernetes. We're using Terraform and we have our own CI/CD tool that we actually released as an open source. And we scaled on AWS massively and started seeing the opportunities with most of our customers being on AWS. So we partnered with AWS partnerships teams. We went through the competencies the well-architected, the accelerate program. And now the relationship is at a level where our sales teams are working closely together with the AWS account managers to spot opportunities where AWS customers need an additional layer of analytics or better cloud security or cost reduction. And we're working together to find them that solution. Now to make it easier and more seamless for AWS customers to use us, we are onboarded to the AWS marketplace. So we're under the unified agreement of AWS and we can be paid through the AWS bill. So now Coralogix can be seen as an AWS service that you're using you don't have to use another vendor and you can get additional insights and lowered costs and 24/7 support that we provide. So that's how we partner with AWS. And of course, a lot of joint marketing and content activity. So we're running a webinar together with AWS teams at a general, not about us. In general, how can we give back to the community? How do you scale? For instance, we ran a webinar on how do you scale Kafka? Which is certainly not our domain, but definitely an issue that we had to handle and had to scale and it's a pain point for many AWS customers. So we're trying to give back, we're a lot from AWS and we are partnering with them to solve problems together. >> So what's it done for you then at Coralogix? So you said it's been a two year relationship so it's matured obviously and you've worked out something very nice. You're leveraging each other's strengths, you know, in a very smart and tactical way. So what does it mean to you though Coralogix and ultimately, what do you think it means to your end user, your client base when you bring the kind of this combined power into their needs? >> Yeah. So for us working together with AWS means that they help us where a startup is lacking the most strength. So startups, they can be extremely fast they can develop cutting edge technologies they can bring new approaches and products to the market. But when you start working with the larger organizations the most hardest part of a POC because the engineering teams see the value immediately is the procurement is the legal parts is getting there opening the door and showing them the value proposition that you have and working together with AWS allows us to first of all, meet these customers, understand their needs and then being able to route through the AWS marketplace. And of course, to make it easier for them. We created like 20 different plugins to all AWS services so they can seamlessly connect all their data. Cause you remember one of the things that we wanted to get to is people not having to cherry pick logs. We're not having to cherry pick matrix. So now they can connect their entire environment and get full cloud observability and security within minutes and do it in an economic way. >> Wait, you're talking about all these capabilities and providing the client base and obviously this is a field that we're talking about data and what you're doing with it that's growing so rapidly. What does it mean to you like inside your office there in terms of, do you have enough space for people? I assume your growth trajectory is pretty impressive right now. >> Yes. This is, it's something that we are trying to learn now. This is a third office in three years and we're now outgrowing this one and going to the next one. So we grew from about 10 people, two years ago when we moved to AWS to over a hundred people now and continuing to hire in East, center, West US and in Israel and in London and in India. And the company is going to double itself within the next few months. So it's definitely, you know, a challenge now with COVID era also, but thank God, you know here in Israel, we're kind of past that. And it seems like the US is going to be past that in the next few months. So we're going to get back and start hiring and growing the teams. >> Well, it sounds impressive. And congratulations on that particular aspect of your business. I know it's always fun to bring on new people. It's all a very positive sign. So congratulations on that front. Thank you for the time today. And most importantly, again, we do wish you a great health and wellness and safety given that all that's going on right now and our hopes and prayers are that it ends as quickly as possible and you can return back to business as usual there. >> Thank you very much, John. I appreciate your time. >> Thank you sir. >> You bet. My pleasure. Once again, we're talking about Coralogix here, on theCUBE Conversation as part of the AWS Startup Showcase with Ariel Assaraf, who is the CEO and co-founder. I'm John Walls. Thanks for joining us here on theCUBE. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, welcome to theCUBE studios of Palo Alto California for RSA conference keynote coverage and conference coverage. I'm Sean for your host of theCUBE. We're breaking down the keynote of RSA day one kickoff. We had Mark Nunnikhoven, who's the distinguished cloud strategist at Lacework. Mark former cube alumni and expert and security has been on many times before, Mark great to see you. Thanks for coming on and helping me break down RSA conference 2021 virtual this year. Thanks for joining. >> Happy to be here. Thanks for having me John. >> You know, one of the things Mark about these security conferences is that interesting, RSA was the last conference we actually did interviews physically face to face and then the pandemic went down and it was a huge shutdown. So we're still virtual coming back to real life. So and they're virtual this year, so kind of a turn of events, but that was kind of the theme this year in the keynote. Changing the game on security, the script has been flipped, connectivity everywhere, security from day one being reinvented. Some people were holding onto the old way some people trying to get on there, on the future wave. Clearly you got the laggards and you've got the innovators all trying to kind of, you know, find their position. This has been obvious in this keynote. What's your take? >> Yeah and that was exactly it. They use that situation of being that last physical security conference, somewhat to their advantage to weave this theme of resiliency. And it's a message that we heard throughout the keynote. It's a message we're going to hear throughout the week. There's a number of talks that are tying back to this and it really hits at the core of what security aims to do. And I think aims is really the right word for it because we're not quite there yet. But it's about making sure that our technology is flexible that it expands and adapts to the situations because as we all know this year, you know basically upended everything we assumed about how our businesses were running, how our communities and society was running and we've all had to adapt. And that's what we saw at the keynote today was they acknowledged that and then woven into the message to drive that home for security providers. >> Yeah and to me one of the most notable backdrops to the entire thing was the fact that the RSA continues to operate from the sell out when Dell sold them for alright $2 billion to a consortium, private privately private equity company, Symphony Technology Group. So there they're operating now on their own. They're out in the wild, as you said, cybersecurity threats are ever increasing, the surface area has changed with cloud native. Basically RSA is a 3000 person startup basically now. So they've got secure ID, the old token business we all have anyone's had those IDs you know it's pretty solid, but now they've got to kind of put this event back together and mobile world Congress is right around the corner. They're going to try to actually have a physical event. So you have this pandemic problem of trying to get the word out and it's weird. It's kind of, I found it. It's hard to get your hands around all the news. >> It is. And it's, you know, we're definitely missing that element. You know, we've seen that throughout the year people have tried to adapt these events into a virtual format. We're missing those elements of those sorts of happenstance run-ins I know we've run into each other at a number of events just sort of in the hall, you get to catch up, but you know as part of those interactions, they're not just social but you also get a little more insight into the conference. Hey, you know, did you catch this great talk or are you going to go catch this thing later? And we're definitely missing that. And I don't think anyone's really nailed this virtual format yet. It's very difficult to wrap your head around like you said, I saw a tweet online from one InfoSec analyst today. It was pointed out, you know, there were 17 talks happening at the same time, which you know, in a physical thing you'd pick one and go to it in a virtual there's that temptation to kind of click across the channels. So even if you know what's going on it's hard to focus in these events. >> Yeah the one conference has got a really good I think virtual platform is Docker con, they have 48 panels, a lot of great stuff there. So that's one of more watching closest coming up on May 27. Check that one out. Let's get into this, let's get into the analysis. I really want to get your thoughts on this because you know, I thought the keynote was very upbeat. Clearly the realities are presenting it. Chuck Robbins, the CEO of Cisco there and you had a bunch of industry legends in there. So let's start with, let's start with what you thought of Rowan's keynote and then we'll jump into what Chuck Robbins was saying. >> Sure yeah. And I thought, Rohit, you know, at first I questioned cause he brought up and he said, I'm going to talk about tigers, airplanes and sewing machines. And you know, as a speaker myself, I said, okay, this is either really going to work out well or it's not going to work out at all. Unfortunately, you know, Rohit head is a professional he's a great speaker and it worked out. And so he tied these three examples. So it was tiger king for Netflix, at World War II, analyzing airplane damage and a great organization in India that pivoted from sewing into creating masks and other supplies for the pandemic. He wove those three examples through with resiliency and showed adaptation. And I thought it was really really well done first of all. But as a cloud guy, I was really excited as well that that first example was Netflix. And he was referencing a chaos monkey, which is a chaos engineering tool, which I don't think a lot of security people are exposed to. So we use it very often in cloud building where essentially this tool will purposely blow up things in your environment. So it will down services. It will cut your communications off because the idea is you need to figure out how to react to these things before they happen for real. And so getting keynote time for a tool like that a very modern cloud tool, I thought was absolutely fantastic. Even if that's, you know, not so well known or not a secret in the cloud world anymore, it's very commonly understood, but getting a security audience exposure to that was great. And so you know, Rohit is a pro and it was a good kickoff and yeah, very upbeat, a lot of high energy which was great for virtual keynote. Cause sometimes that's what's really missing is that energy. >> Yeah, we like Rohit too. He's got some, he's got charisma. He also has his hand on the pulse. I think the chaos monkey point you're making is as a great call out because it's been around the DevOps community. But what that really shows I think and puts an exclamation point around this industry right now is that DevSecOps is here and it's never going away and cloud native and certainly the pandemic has shown that cloud scale speed data and now distributed computing with the edge, 5G has been mentioned, as you said, this is a real deal. So this is DevOps. This is infrastructure as code and security is being reinvented in it. This is a killer theme and it's kind of a wake-up call. What's your reaction to that? what's your take? >> Yeah, it absolutely is a wake-up call and it actually blended really well into a Rohit second point, which was around using data. And I think, you know, having these messages put out to the, you know, what is the security conference for the year always, is really important because the rest of the business has moved forward and security teams have been a little hesitant there, we're a little behind the times compared to the rest of the business who are taking advantage of these cloud services, taking advantage of data being everywhere. So for security professionals to realize like hey there are tools that can make us better at our jobs and make us, you know, keep or help us keep pace with the business is absolutely critical because like you said, as much as you know I always cringe when I hear the term DevSecOps, it's important because security needs to be there. The reason I cringe is because I think security should be built into everything. But the challenge we have is that security teams are still a lot of us are still stuck in the past to sort of put our arms around something. And you know, if it's in that box, I'm good with it. And that just doesn't work in the cloud. We have better tools, we have better data. And that was really Rohit's key message was those tools and that data can help you be resilient, can help your organization be resilient and whether that's the situation like a pandemic or a major cyber attack, you need to be flexible. You need to be able to bounce back. >> You know, when we actually have infrastructure as code and no one ever talks about DevOps or DevSecOps you know, we've, it's over, it's in the right place, but I want to get your thoughts and seeing if you heard anything about automation because one of the things that you bring up about not liking the word DevSecOps is really around, having this new team formation, how people are organizing their developers and their operations teams. And it really is becoming programmable and that's kind of the word, but automation scales it. So that's been a big theme this year. What are you hearing? What did you hear on the keynote? Any signs of reality around automation, machine learning you mentioned data, did they dig into automation? >> Automation was on the periphery. So a lot of what they're talking about only works with automation. So, you know, the Netflix shout out for chaos monkey absolutely as an automated tool to take advantage of this data, you absolutely need to be automated but the keynote mainly focused on sort of the connectivity and the differences in how we view an organization over the last year versus moving forward. And I think that was actually a bit of a miss because as you rightfully point out, John, you need automation. The thing that baffles me as a builder, as a security guy, is that cyber criminals have been automated for years. That's how they scale. That's how they make their money. Yet we still primarily defend manually. And I don't know if you've ever tried to beat, you know the robots that are everything or really complicated video games. We don't tend to win well when we're fighting automation. So security absolutely needs to step up. The good news is looking at the agenda for the week, taking in some talks today, while it was a bit of a miss and the keynote, there is a good theme of automation throughout some of the deeper dive sessions. So it is a topic that people are aware of and moving forward. But again, I always want to see us move fast. >> Was there a reason Chuck Robbins headlines or is that simply because there are a big 800 pound gorilla in the networking space? You know, why Cisco? Are they relevant security? Is that signaling that networking is more important? As of 5G at the edge, but is Cisco the player? >> Obviously Cisco has a massive business and they are a huge player in the security industry but I think they're also representative of, you know and this was definitely Chuck's message. They were representative of this idea that security needs to be built in at every layer. So even though, you know I live on primarily the cloud technologies dealing with organizations that are built in the cloud, there is, you know, the reality of that we are all connected through a multitude of networks. And we've seen that with work from home which is a huge theme this year at the conference and the improvements in mobility with 5G and other connectivity areas like Edge and WiFi six. So having a big network player and security player like Cisco in the keynote I think is important just because their message was not just about inclusion and diversity for skills which was a theme we saw repeated in the keynote actually but it was about building security in from the start to the finish throughout. And I think that's a really important message. We can't just pick one place and say this is where we're going to build security. It needs to be built throughout all of our systems. >> If you were a Cicso listening today what was your take on that? Were you impressed? Were you blown away? Did you fall out of your chair or was it just right down the middle? >> I mean, you might fall out of your chair just cause you're sitting in it for so long taken in a virtual event. And I mean, I know that's the big downside of virtual is that your step counter is way down compared to where it should be for these conferences but there was nothing revolutionary in the opening parts of the keynote. It was just, you know sort of beating the drum that has been talked about, has been simmering in the background from sort of the more progressive side of security. So if you've been focusing on primarily traditional techniques and the on-premise world, then perhaps this was a little a bit of an eye-opener and something where you go, wow, there's, you know there's something else out here and we can move things forward. For people who are, you know, more cloud native or more into that automation space, that data space this is really just sort of a head nodding going, yeap, I agree with this. This makes sense. This is where we all should be at this point. But as we know, you know there's a very long tail insecurity and insecurity organizations. So to have that message, you know repeated from a large stage like the keynote I think was very important. >> Well you know, we're going to be, theCUBE will be onsite and virtual with our virtual platform for Amazon web services reinforced coming up in Houston. So that's going to be interesting to see and you compare contrast like an AWS reinforce which is kind of the I there I think they had the first conference two years ago so it's kind of a new conference. And then you got the old kind of RSA conference. The question I have for you, is it a just a position of almost two conferences, right? You got the cloud native AWS, which is really about, oh shared responsibility, et cetera, et cetera a lot more action happening there. And you got this conference here seem come the old school legacy players. So I want to get your thoughts on that. And I want to get your take on just just the cryptographers panel, because, you know, as I'm not saying this as a state-of-the-art that the old guys saying get off my lawn, you know crypto, we're the crypto purists, they were trashing NFTs which as you know, is all the rage. So I, and Ron rivers who wrote new co-create RSA public key technology, which is isn't everything these days. Is this a sign of just get off my lawn? Or is it a sign of the times trashing the NFTs? What's your take? >> Yeah, well, so let's tackle the NFTs then we'll do the contrast between the two conferences. But I thought the NFT, you know Ron and Addie both had really interesting ways of explaining what an NFT was, because that's most of the discussion around the NFT is exactly what are we buying or what are we investing in? And so I think it was Addie who said, you know it was basically you have a tulip then you could have a picture of a tulip and then you could have something explaining the picture of the tulip and that's what an NFT is. So I think, you know, but at the same time he recognized the value of potential for artists. So I think there was some definitely, you know get off my lawn, but also sort of the the cryptographer panels is always sort of very pragmatic, very evidence-based as shown today when they actually were talking about a paper by Schnorr who debates, whether RSA or if he has new math that he thinks can debunk RSA or at least break the algorithm. And so they had a very logical and intelligent discussion about that. But the cryptographers panel in contrast to the rest of the keynote, it's not about the hype. It's not about what's going on in the industry. It's really is truly a cryptographers panel talking about the math, talking about the fundamental underpinnings of our security things as a big nerd, I'm a huge fan but a lot of people watch that and just kind of go, okay now's a great time to grab a snack and maybe move those legs a little bit. But if you're interested in the more technical deeper dive side, it's definitely worth taking in. >> Super fascinating and I think, you know, it's funny, they said it's not even a picture of a tulip it's s pointer to a picture of a tulip. Which is technically it. >> That was it. >> It's interesting how, again, this is all fun. NFTs are, I mean, you can't help, but get an Amber by decentralization. And that, that wave is coming. It's very interesting how you got a decentralization wave coming, yet a lot of people want to hang on to the centralized view. Okay, this is an architectural conflict. Is there a balance in your mind as a techie, we look at security, certainly as the perimeter is gone that's not even debate anymore, but as we have much more of a distributed computing environment, is there a need for some sensuality and or is it going to be all decentralized in your opinion? >> Yeah that's actually a really interesting question. It's a great set up to connect both of these points of sort of the cryptographers panel and that contrast between newer conferences and RSA because the cryptographers panel brought up the fact that you can't have resilient systems unless you're going for a distributed systems, unless you're spreading things out because otherwise you're creating a central point of failure, even if it's at hyper-scale which is not resilient by definition. So that was a very interesting and very valid point. I think the reality is it's a combination of the two is that we want resilient systems that are distributed that scale up independently of other factors. You know, so if you're sitting in the cloud you're going multi-region or maybe even multicloud, you know you want this distributed area just for that as Verner from AWS calls it, you know, the reduced blast radius. So if something breaks, not everything does but then the challenge from a security and from an operational point of view, is you need that central visibility. And I think this is where automation, where machine learning and really viewing security as a data problem, comes into play. If you have the systems distributed but you can provide visibility centrally which is something we can achieve with modern cloud technologies, you kind of hit that sweet spot. You've got resilient underpinnings in your systems but you as a team can actually understand what's going on because that was a, yet another point from Carmela and from Ross on the cryptographers panel when it comes to AI and machine learning, we're at the point where we don't really understand a lot of what's going on in the algorithm we kind of understand the output and the input. So again, it tied back to that resiliency. So I think that key is distributed systems are great but you need that central visibility and you only get there through viewing things as a data problem, heavy automation and modern tooling. >> Great great insight, Mark. Great, great call out there. And great point tied in there. Let me ask you a question on your take on the keynote in the conference in general as first day gets going. Do you see this evolving from the classic enterprise kind of buyer supplier relationship to much more of a CSO driven or CXO driven? I need to start building about my teams. I got to start hiring developers, not so much in operation side. I mean, I see InfoSec is these industries are not going away. People are still buying tools and stacking up the tool shed but there's been a big trend towards platforms and shifting left from a developer CICB pipeline standpoint which speaks to scale on the cloud native side and that distributed side. So is this conference hitting that Mark, or you still think there are more hardware and service systems people? What's the makeup? What's the take? >> I think we're definitely starting to a shift. So a great example of that is the CSA. The Cloud Security Alliance always runs a day one or day zero summit at RSA. And this year it was a CSO executive summit. And whereas in previous years it's been practitioners. So that is a good sign I think, that's a positive sign to start to look at a long ignored area of security, which is how do we train the next generation of security professionals. We've always taken this traditional view. We've, you know, people go through the standard you get your CISSP, you hold onto it forever. You know, you do your time on the firewall, you go through the standard thing but I think we really need to adjust and look for people with that automation capability, with development, with better business skills and definitely better communication skills, because really as we integrate as we leave our sort of protected little cave of security, we need to be better business people and better team players. >> Well Mark, I really appreciate you coming on here. A cube alumni and a trusted resource and verified, trusted contributor. Thank you for coming on and sharing your thoughts on the RSA conference and breaking down the keynote analysis, the RSA conference. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. >> Well, what we got you here to take a minute to plug what you're doing at Lacework, what you're excited about. What's going on over there? >> Sure, I appreciate that. So I just joined Lacework, I'm a weekend. So I'm drinking from the fire hose of knowledge and what I've found so far, fantastic platform, fantastic teams. It's got me wrapped up and excited again because we're approaching, you know security from the data point of view. We're really, we're born in the cloud, built for the cloud and we're trying to help teams really gather context. And the thing that appealed to me about that was that it's not just targeting the security team. It's targeting builders, it's targeting the business, it's giving them that visibility into what's going on so that they can make informed decision. And for me, that's really what security is all about. >> Well, I appreciate you coming on. Thanks so much for sharing. >> Thank you. >> Okay CUBE coverage of RSA conference here with Lacework, I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>From around the globe. It's the queue with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, AWS and our community partners. >>Welcome back to the cubes. Live coverage for ADFS reinvent 2020 I'm John Ford with the cube, your host. We are the cube virtual. We're not there in person this year. We're remote with the pandemic and we're here for the keynote analysis for Verner Vogels, and we've got some great analysts on and friends of the cube cube alumni is Rob Hirschfeld is the founder and CEO of Rakin a pioneer in the dev ops space, as well as early on on the bare metal, getting on the whole on-premise he's seen the vision and I can tell you, I've talked to him many times over the years. He's been on the same track. He's on the right wave frog. Great to have you on. I'm going to have to start Veatch, come on. Y'all come on as well, but great to see you. Thanks, pleasure to be here. Um, so the keynote with Verna was, you know, he's like takes you on a journey, you know, and, and virtual is actually a little bit different vibe, but I thought he did an exceptional job of stage layout and some of the virtual stage craft. Um, but what I really enjoyed the most was really this next level, thinking around systems thinking, right, which is my favorite topic, because, you know, we've been saying, going back 10 years, the cloud is just, here's a computer, right. It's operating system. And so, um, this is the big thing. This is, what's your reaction to the keynote. >>Wow. So I think you're right. This is one of the challenges with what Amazon has been building is it's, you know, it is a lock box, it's a service. So you don't, you don't get to see behind the scenes. You don't really get to know how they run these services. And what, what I see happening out of all of those pieces is they've really come back and said, we need to help people operate this platform. And, and that shouldn't be surprising to anyone. Right? Last couple of years, they've been rolling out service, service service, all these new things. This talk was really different for Verner's con normal ones, because he wasn't talking about whizzbang new technologies. Um, he was really talking about operations, um, you know, died in the wool. How do we make the system easier to use? How do we expose things? What assistance can we have in, in building applications? Uh, in some cases it felt like, uh, an application performance monitoring or management APM talk from five or even 10 years ago, um, canaries, um, you know, Canary deployments, chaos engineering, observability, uh, sort of bread and butter, operational things. >>We have Savi Joel, who's a influencer cloud computing Xtrordinair dev ops guru. Uh, we don't need dev ops guru from Amazon. We got Sarpy and prop here. So it'd be great to see you. Um, you guys had a watch party. Um, tell me what the reaction was, um, with, of the influencers in the cloud or ADI out there that were looking at Vernon's announcement, because it does attract a tech crowd. What was your take and what was the conversation like? >>Yeah, we kinda geeked out. Um, we had a watch party and we were commenting back and forth, like when we were watching it. I think that the general consensus is that the complexity of AWS stack itself is, is increasing. Right. And they have been focused on developers a lot, I think a lot longer than they needed to be a little bit. I think, uh, now they need to focus on the operations. Like we, we are, we all love dev ops talks and it's very fancy and it's very modern way of building software. But if you think deep down that, like once we developed software traditionally and, and also going forward, I think we need to have that separation. Once you develop something in production, it's, it's, it's operating right. Once you build a car, you're operating car, you're not building car all the time. Right? >>So same with the software. Once you build a system, it should have some stability where you're running it, operating it for, for a while, at least before you touch it or refactoring all that stuff. So I think like building and operating at the same time, it's very good for companies like Amazon, AWS, especially, uh, and, and Google and, and, and Facebook and all those folks who are building technology because they are purely high-tech companies, but not for GM Ford Chrysler or Kaiser Permanente, which is healthcare or a school district. The, they, they need, need to operate that stuff once it's built. So I think, uh, the operationalization of cloud, uh, well, I think take focus going forward a lot more than it has and absorbable Deanna, on a funny note, I said, observability is one of those things. I, now these days, like, like, you know, and the beauty pageants that every contestant say is like, whatever question you asked, is it Dora and the answer and say at the end world peace, right? >>And that's a world peace term, which is the absorbability. Like you can talk about all the tech stuff and all that stuff. And at the end you say observability and you'll be fine. So, um, what I'm making is like observability is, and was very important. And when I was talking today about like how we can enable the building of absorbability into this new paradigm, which is a microservices, like where you pass a service ID, uh, all across all the functions from beginning to the end. Right. And so, so you can trace stuff. So I think he was talking, uh, at that level. Yeah. >>Let me, let's take an observer Billy real quick. I have a couple of other points. I want to get your opinions on. He said, quote, this three, enabling major enabling technologies, powering observability metrics, logging and tracing here. We know that it would, that is of course, but he didn't take a position. If you look at all the startups out there that are sitting there, the next observability, there's at least six that I know of. I mean, that are saying, and then you got ones that are kind of come in. I think signal effects was one. I liked, like I got bought by Splunk and then is observability, um, a feature, um, or is it a company? I mean, this is something that kind of gets talked about, right? I mean, it's, I mean, is it really something you can build a business on or is it a white space? That's a feature that gets pulled in what'd you guys react to that? >>So this is a platform conversation and, and, you know, one of the things that we've been having conversations around recently is this idea of platforms. And, and, you know, I've been doing a lot of work on infrastructure as code and distributed infrastructure and how people want infrastructure to be more code, like, which is very much what, what Verna was, was saying, right? How do we bring development process capabilities into our infrastructure operations? Um, and these are platform challenges. W what you're asking about from, uh, observability is perspective is if I'm running my code in a platform, if I'm running my infrastructure as a platform, I actually need to understand what that platform is doing and how it's making actions. Um, but today we haven't really built the platforms to be very transparent to the users. And observability becomes this necessary component to fix all the platforms that we have, whether they're Kubernetes or AWS, or, you know, even going back to VMware or bare metal, if you can't see what's going on, then you're operating in the blind. And that is an increasingly big problem. As we get more and more sophisticated infrastructure, right? Amazon's outage was based on systems can being very connected together, and we keep connecting systems together. And so we have to be able to diagnose and troubleshoot when those connections break or for using containers or Lambdas. The code that's running is ephemeral. It's only around for short periods of time. And if something's going wrong in it, it's incredibly hard to fix it, >>You know? And, and also he, you know, he reiterated his whole notion of log everything, right? He kept on banging on the drum on that one, like log everything, which is actually a good practice. You got to log everything. Why wouldn't you, >>I mean, how you do, but they don't make it easy. Right? Amazon has not made it easy to cross, cross, and, uh, connect all the data across all of those platforms. Right? People think of Amazon as one thing, but you know, the people who are using it understand it's actually a collection of services. And some of those are not particularly that tied together. So figuring out something that's going on across, across all of your service bundles, and this isn't an Amazon problem, this is an industry challenge. Especially as we go towards microservices, I have to be able to figure out what happened, even if I used 10 services, >>Horizontal, scalability argument. Sorry. Do you want to get your thoughts on this? So the observability, uh, he also mentioned theory kind of couched it before he went into the talk about systems theory. I'm like, okay. Let's, I mean, I love systems, and I think that's going to be the big wake up call here for the next 10 years. That's a systems mindset. And I think, you know, um, Rob's right. It's a platform conversation. When you're thinking about an operating system or a system, it has consequences when things change, but he talked about controllability versus, uh, observability and kinda T that teed up the, well, you can control systems controls, or you can have observability, uh, what's he getting at in all of this? What's he trying to say, keep, you know, is it a cover story? Is it this, is it a feature? What was the, what was the burner getting at with all this? >>Uh, I, I, I believe they, they understand that, that, uh, that all these services are very sort of micro in nature from Amazon itself. Right. And then they are not tied together as Rob said earlier. And they, he addressed that. He, uh, he, uh, announced that service. I don't know the name of that right now of problem ahead that we will gather all the data from all the different places. And then you can take a look at all the data coming from different services at this at one place where you have the service ID passed on to all the servers services. You have to do that. It's a discipline as a software developer, you have to sort of adhere to even in traditional world, like, like, you know, like how you do logging and monitoring and tracing, um, it's, it's your creativity at play, right? >>So that's what software is like, if you can pass on, I was treating what they gave an example of Citrix, uh, when, when, when you are using like tons of applications with George stream to your desktop, through Citrix, they had app ID concept, right? So you can trace what you're using and all that stuff, and you can trace the usage and all that stuff, and they can, they can map that log to that application, to that user. So you need that. So I think he w he was talking about, I think that's what he's getting too. Like we have to, we have to sort of rethink how we write software in this new Microsoft, uh, sort of a paradigm, which I believe it, it's a beautiful thing. Uh, as long as we can manage it, because Microsoft is, are spread across like, um, small and a smaller piece of software is everywhere, right? So the state, how do we keep the state intact? How do we, um, sort of trace things? Uh, it becomes a huge problem if we don't do it right? So it it's, um, it's a little, this is some learning curve for most of the developers out there. So 60 dash 70% >>Rob was bringing this up, get into this whole crash. And what is it kind of breakdown? Because, you know, there's a point where you don't have the Nirvana of true horizontal scalability, where you might have microservices that need to traverse boundaries or systems, boundaries, where, or silos. So to Rob's point earlier, if you don't see it, you can't measure it or you can't get through it. How do you wire services across boundaries? Is that containers, is that, I mean, how does this all work? How do you guys see that working? I just see a train wreck there. >>It's, it's a really hard problem. And I don't think we should underestimate it because everything we toast talked about sounds great. If you're in a single AWS region, we're talking about distributed infrastructure, right? If you think about what we've been seeing, even more generally about, you know, edge sites, uh, colo on prem, you know, in cloud multi-region cloud, all these things are actually taking this one concept and you're like, Oh, I just want to store all the log data. Now, you're not going to store all your log data in one central location anymore. That in itself, as a distributed infrastructure problem, where I have to be able to troubleshoot what's going on, you know, and know that the logs are going to the right place and capture the data, that's really important. Um, and one of the innovations in this that I think is going to impact the industry over the next couple of years is the addition of more artificial intelligence and machine learning, into understanding operations patterns and practices. >>And I think that that's a really significant industry trend where Amazon has a distinct advantage because it's their systems and it's captive. They can analyze and collect a lot of data across very many customers and learn from those things and program systems that learn from those things. Um, and so the way you're going to keep up with this is not by logging more and more data, but by doing exactly what we're talking through, which was how do I analyze the patterns with machine learning so that I can get predictive analysis so that I can understand something that looks wrong and then put people on checking it before it goes wrong. >>All right, I gotta, I gotta bring up something controversial. I can't hold back any longer. Um, you know, Mark Zuckerberg said many, many years ago, all the old people, they can do startups, they're too old and you gotta be young and hungry. You gotta do that stuff. If we're talking systems theory, uh, automated meta reasoning, evolvable systems, resilience, distributed computing, isn't that us old guys that have actually have systems experience. I mean, if you're under the age of 30, you probably don't even know what a system is. Um, and, or co coded to the level of systems that we use to code. And I'm putting my quote old man kind of theory, only kidding, by the way on the 30. But my point is there is a generation of us that had done computer science in the, in the eighties and seventies, late seventies, maybe eighties and nineties, it's all it was, was systems. It was a systems world. Now, when you have a software world, the aperture is increasing in terms of software, are the younger generation of developers system thinkers, or have we lost that art, uh, or is it doesn't matter? What do you guys think? >>I, I think systems thinking comes with age. I mean, that's, that's sort of how I think, I mean, like I take the systems thinking a greater sort of, >>Um, world, like state as a system country, as a system and everything is a system, your body's a system family system, so it's the same way. And then what impacts the system when you operated internal things, which happened within the system and external, right. And we usually don't talk about the economics and geopolitics. There's a lot of the technology. Sometimes we do, like we have, I think we need to talk more about that, the data sovereignty and all that stuff. But, but even within the system, I think the younger people appreciate it less because they don't have the, they don't see, um, software taught like that in the universities. And, and, and, and by these micro micro universities now online trainings and stuff like sweaty, like, okay, you learn this thing and you're good at it saying, no, no, it's not like that. So you've got to understand the basics and how the systems operate. >>Uh, I'll give you an example. So like we were doing the, the, the client server in early nineties, and then gradually we moved more towards like having ESB enterprise services, bus where you pass a state, uh, from one object to another, and we can bring in the heterogeneous, uh, languages. This thing is written in Java. This is in.net. This is in Python. And then you can pass it through that. Uh, you're gonna make a state for, right. And that, that was contained environment. Like ESBs were contained environment. We were, I, I wrote software for ESPs myself at commerce one. And so like, we, what we need today is the ESP equallant in the cloud. We don't have that. >>Rob, is there a reverse ageism developers? I mean, if you're young, you might not have systems. What do you think? I, I don't agree with that. I actually think that the nature of the systems that we're programming forces people into more distributed infrastructure thinking the platforms we have today are much better than they were, you know, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, um, in the sense that I can do distributed infrastructure programming without thinking about it very much anymore, but you know, people know, they know how to use cloud. They know how to use a big platform. They know how to break things into microservices. I, I think that these are inherent skills that people need to think about that you're you're right. There is a challenge in that, you know, you get very used to the platform doing the work for you, and that you need to break through it, but that's an experiential thing, right? >>The more experienced developers are going to have to understand what the platforms do. Just like, you know, we used to have to understand how registers worked inside of a CPU, something I haven't worried about for a long, long time. So I, I don't think it's that big of a problem. Um, from, from that perspective, I do think that the thing that's really hard is collaboration. And so, you know, it's, it's hard people to people it's hard inside of a platform. It's hard when you're an Amazon size and you've been rolling out services all over the place and now have to figure out how to fit them all together. Um, and that to me is, is a design problem. And it's more about being patient and letting things, uh, mature. If anything might take away from this keynote is, you know, everybody asked Amazon to take a breath and work on usability and, and cross cross services synchronizations rather than, than adding more services into the mix. And that's, >>That's a good point. I mean, again, I bring up the conversation because it's kind of the elephant in the room and I make it being controversial to make a point there. So our view, because, you know, I interviewed Judy Estrin who helped found the internet with Vince Cerf. She's well-known for her contributions for the TCP IP protocol. Andy Besta Stein. Who's the, who's the Rembrandt of motherboards. But as Pat Gelsinger, CEO of VMware, I would say both said to me on the cube that without systems thinking, you don't understand consequences of when things change. And we start thinking about this microservices conversation, you start to hear a little bit of that pattern emerging, where those systems, uh, designs matter. And then you have, on the other hand, you have this modern application framework where serverless takes over. So, you know, Rob back to your infrastructure as code, it really isn't an either, or they're not mutually exclusive. You're going to have a set of nerds and geeks engineering systems to make them better and easier and scalable. And then you're going to have application developers that need to just make it work. So you start to see the formation of kind of the, I won't say swim lanes, but I mean, what do you guys think about that? Because you know, Judy and, um, Andy better sign up. They're kind of right. Uh, >>Th th the enemy here, and we're seeing this over and over again is complexity. And, and the challenge has been, and serverless is like, those people like, Oh, I don't have to worry about servers anymore because I'm dealing with serverless, which is not true. What you're doing is you're not worrying about infrastructure as much, but you, the complexity, especially in a serverless infrastructure where you're pulling, you know, events from all sorts of things, and you have one, one action, one piece of code, you know, triggering a whole bunch of other pieces of code in a decoupled way. We are, we are bringing so much complexity into these systems, um, that they're very hard to conceive of. Um, and AIML is not gonna not gonna address that. Um, I think one of the things that was wonderful about the setting, uh, in the sugar factory and at all of that, you know, sort of very mechanical viewpoint, you know, when you're actually connecting all things together, you can see it. A lot of what we've been building today is almost impossible to observe. And so the complexity price that we're paying in infrastructure is going up exponentially and we can't sustain infrastructures like that. We have to start leveling that in, right? >>Your point on the keynote, by the way, great call out on, on the, on the setting. I thought that was very clever. So what do you think about this? Because as enterprises go through this transformation, one of the big conversations is the solution architecture, the architecture of, um, how you lay all this out. It's complexity involved. Now you've got on premise system, you've got cloud, you've got edge, which you're hearing more and more local processing, disconnected systems, managing it at the edge with visualization. We're going to hear more about that, uh, with Dirk, when he comes on the queue, but you know, just in general as a practitioner out there, what, what's, what's your, what do you see people getting their arms around, around this, this keynote? What do they, what's your thoughts? >>Yeah, I, I think, uh, the, the pattern I see emerging is like, or in the whole industry, regardless, like if you put, when does your sign is that like, we will write less and less software in-house I believe that SAS will emerge. Uh, and it has to, I mean, that is the solution to kill the complexity. I believe, like we always talk about software all the time and we, we try to put this in the one band, like it's, everybody's dining, same kind of software, and they have, I'm going to complexity and they have the end years and all that stuff. That's not true. Right. If you are Facebook, you're writing totally different kind of software that needs to scale differently. You needs a lot of cash and all that stuff, right. Gash like this and cash. Well, I ain't both gases, but when you are a mid size enterprise out there in the middle, like fly over America, what, uh, my friend Wayne says, like, we need to think about those people too. >>Like, how do they drive software? What kind of software do they write? Like how many components they have in there? Like they have three tiers of four tiers. So I think they're a little more simpler software for internal use. We have to distinguish these applications. I always talk about this, like the systems of record systems of differentiation, the system of innovation. And I think cloud will do great. And the newer breed of applications, because you're doing a lot of, a lot of experimentation. You're doing a lot of DevOps. You have two pizza teams and all that stuff, which is good stuff we talk about, well, when you go to systems of record, you need stability. You need, you need some things which is operational. You don't want to touch it again, once it's in production. Right? And so the, in between that, that thing is, I think that's, that's where the complexity lies the systems are, which are in between those systems of record and system or innovation, which are very new Greenfield. That, that's what I think that's where we need to focus, uh, our, um, platform development, um, platform as a service development sort of, uh, dollars, if you will, as an industry, I think Amazon is doing that right. And, and Azura is doing that right to a certain extent too. I, I, I, I worry a little bit about, uh, uh, Google because they're more tilted towards the data science, uh, sort of side of things right now. >>Well, Microsoft has the most visibility into kind of the legacy world, but Rob, you're shaking your head there. Um, on his comment, >>You know, I, I, you know, I, I watched the complexity of all these systems and, and, you know, I'm not sure that sass suffocation of everything that we're doing is leading to less is pushing the complexity behind a curtain so that you, you, you can ignore the man behind the curtain. Um, but at the end of the day, you know what we're really driving towards. And I think Amazon is accelerating this. The cloud is accelerating. This is a new set of standard operating processes and procedures based on automation, based on API APIs, based on platforms, uh, that ultimately, I think people could own and could come back to how we want to operate it. When I look at what we w we were just shown with the keynote, you know, it was an, is things that application performance management and monitoring do. It's, it's not really Amazon specific stuff. There's no magic beans that Amazon is growing operational knowledge, you know, in Amazon, greenhouses that only they know how to consume. This is actually pretty block and tackle stuff. Yeah. And most people don't need to operate it at that type of scale to be successful. >>It's a great point. I mean, let's, let's pick up on that for the last couple of minutes we have left. Cause I think that's a great, great double-down because you're thinking about the mantra, Hey, everything is a service, you know, that's great for business model. You know, you hand it over to the techies. They go, wait a minute. What does that actually mean? It's harder. But when I talk to people out there and you hear people talking about everything is a service or sanctification, I do agree. I think you're putting complexity behind the curtain, but it's kind of the depends answer. So if you're going to have everything as a service, the common thesis is it has to have support automation everywhere. You got to automate things to make things sassiphy specified, which means you need five nines, like factory type environments. They're not true factories, but Rob, to your point, if you're going to make something a SAS, it better be Bulletproof. Because if you're, if you're automating something, it better be automated, right? You can measure things all you want, but if it's not automated, like a, like a, >>And you have no idea what's going on behind the curtains with some of these, these things, right. Especially, you know, I know our business and you know, our customers' businesses, they're, they're reliant on more and more services and you have no idea, you know, the persistence that service, if they're going to break an API, if they're going to change things, a lot of the stuff that Amazon is adding here defensively is because they're constantly changing the wheels on the bus. Um, and that is not bad operational practice. You should be resilient to that. You should have processes that are able to be constantly updated and CICB pipelines and, you know, continuous deployments, you shouldn't expect to, to, you know, fossilize your it environment in Amber, and then hope it doesn't have to change for 10 years. But at the same time, we'll work control your house. >>That's angle about better dev ops hypothetical, like a factory, almost metaphor. Do you care if the cars are being shipped down the assembly line and the output works and the output, if you have self-healing and you have these kinds of mechanisms, you know, you could have do care. The services are being terminated and stood up and reformed as long as the factory works. Right? So again, it's a complexity level of how much it, or you want to bite off and chew or make work. So to me, if it's automated, it's simple, did it work or not? And then the cost of work to be, what's your, what's your angle on this? Yeah. >>I believe if you believe in systems thinking, right. You have to believe in, um, um, the concept of, um, um, Oh gosh, I'm losing over minor. Um, abstraction. Right? So abstraction is your friend in software. Abstraction is your friend anyways, right? That's how we, humans pieces actually make a lot more progress than any other sort of living things here in this world. So that's why we are smart. We can abstract complexity behind the curtains, right? We, we can, we can keep improving, like from the, the, you know, wooden cart to the car, to the, to the plane, to the other, like, we, we, we have this, like when, when we see we are flying these airplanes, like 90% of the time they're on autopilot, like that's >>Hi, hiding my attractions is, is about evolution. Evolvable software term. He said, it's true. All right, guys, we have one minute left. Um, let's close this out real quick. Each of you give a closing statement on what you thought of the keynote and Verner's talk prop, we'll start with you. >>Uh, you know, as always, it's a perf keynote, uh, very different this year because it was so operationally focused and using the platform and, and helping people run their, their, off their applications and software better. And I think it's an interesting turn that we've been waiting for for Amazon, uh, to look at, you know, helping people use their own platform more. Um, so, uh, refreshing change and I think really powerful and well delivered. I really did like the setting >>Great shopping. And when we found, I found out today, that's Teresa Carlson is now running training and certification. So I'm expecting that to be highly awesomely accelerated a success there. Sorry, what's your take real quick on burners talk, walk away. Keynote thoughts. >>I, I, I think it was what I expected it to be like, he focused on the more like a software architecture kind of discussion. And he focused this time a little more on the ops side and the dev side, which I think they, they are pivoting a little bit, um, because they, they want to sell more AWS stuff to us, uh, to the existing enterprises. So I think, um, that was, um, good. Uh, I wish at the end, he said, not only like, go, go build, but also go build and operate. So can, you know, they all say, go build, build, build, but like, who's going to operate this stuff. Right. So I think, um, uh, I will see a little shift, I think, going forward, but we were talking earlier, uh, during or watch party that I think, uh, going forward, uh, AWS will open start open sourcing the commoditized version of their cloud, which have been commoditized by other vendors and gradually they will open source it so they can keep the hold onto the enterprises. I think that's what my take is. That's my prediction is >>Awesome and want, I'll make sure I'm at your watch party next time. Sorry. I missed it. Nobody's taking notes. Try and prepare. Sorry, Rob. Thanks for coming on and sharing awesome insight and expertise to experts in cloud and dev ops. I know them. And can firstly vouch for their awesomeness? Thanks for coming on. I think Verner can verify what I thought already was reporting Amazon everywhere. And if you connect the dots, this idea of reasoning, are we going to have smarter cloud? That's the next conversation? I'm John for your host of the cube here, trying to get smarter with Aus coverage. Thanks to Robin. Sarvi becoming on. Thanks for watching.

>> Announcer: From around the globe. It's the cube with coverage of Kubecon and cloud nativecon North America, 2020 virtual brought to you by Red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to theCUBE, >> Coverage of Kubecon cloud nativecon 2020. It's virtual this year, though, theCUBE is virtual. This is theCUBE virtual I'm John Furrier your host. This is the segment where we kind of pre tease out the show for this year. We do a CUBE review and analyze and talk about some of the things we're expecting trends in the marketplace. And I'm pleased to announce a new CUBE co-host with me, Ali Amagasu, who's been part of theCUBE community since 2013, going back to the OpenStack days, which is now different name, but it's private clouds making a come back. But she's part of the cloud community, the cloud Harati, as we say, Ali, welcome to being a CUBE host. >> Thank you so much, John. It's a pleasure, it's been a while since we've hung out, but I do remember pestering you back in those days, and I've certainly stayed with theCUBE ever since then. I mean, you guys are an institution to put it. >> It's been so much fun, I have to say I had less gray hair. I didn't have glasses, I wear contacts. Now I have progressive vision, so I can't wear the contacts. They're hard for me, but it's been such a great evolution. And one of the things that's been really important to our mission has been to be kind of like an upstream project to be kind of open and be part of the community to be on the ground floor. We can't be there this year 'cause of the pandemic, but it's been great and about a few years ago, Stu Miniman and I were seeing that we had a great community of people who wanted a co-host, and we got a great community host model. And thanks for coming on and being part of this mission, it's been important to our mission. We've got Lisa Martin, Rebecca Knight, John Troyer, Keith Townson, Justin Warren, Corey Quinn, to name a few. So welcome to the crew, thanks for coming on. >> Sure I'm happy to step in. >> So I want to go back in time. I mean, when we first met in 2013, you were a part of Metacloud, which got acquired by Cisco at that time, OpenStack was hot, OpenStack was at the cloud. And if you think about where Amazon was at that point and time, it was really the beginning of that sea change of rapid cloud scale, public cloud, specifically OpenStack kind of settled in, and that's kind of making a nice foundation for private cloud right now. It's still out there, telco clouds. You're seeing that trend, but this is the sixth Kubecon we've been there at all of them. We were there at the founding president creation. What an interesting turn of events. The world is kind of spun in the direction of all the conversations we were having back in 2013, 14, 15, 16. Now fast forward Kubernetes is the hottest thing on the planet and cloud native is the construct for all these modern apps, so what's your take on it. What's your view on this? 'Cause you've been riding this wave. >> Well, I think it's interesting. You brought up OpenStack because I remember in those days, OpenStack was smoking hot. And I remember talking to some of the organizers from the foundation, what they said was we want OpenStack to be boring. We want it to be part of the background. We will know we've made it when it's boring. And we could argue that they're there now, right? They aren't what we're talking about as much, but they're still there, they're still doing their thing. They're still growing as far as I know. So that's happened and now Kubernetes is the incredible hotness and it's just exploded. And so it turned from, you know, just a few projects, to now, if you look at the list of projects that are in incubation list of projects that have graduated, it's pretty long, and it's an impressive set of capabilities, when you look. >> It's been really interesting, you know, Dan Collin who's, the Ben was the director of the CNCF. I remember talking to him early on. And when he came, when he joined, he was, he hustled hard. He was smart. And he had a vision to balance the growing ecosystem cause he's done successful startups. So he kind of kind of knows the rocket ship labor, but he basically brought that entrepreneurial startup mentality. And I saw him in China when I was there with Intel with Alibaba conference in the lobby of the hotel, I'm like, dad, what are you doing here? So the CNC, I was already thinking global. They build out the most impressive landscape of vendors to participate in cloud nativecon and Kubecon At the same time, they maintain that end user focused. If you look at Envoy, right, it came from Lyft. So you have this really nice balance. And you know, it was always people chirping and complaining about this, that, and the other thing on the vendor's side. But the end user focus has been such a strong hand for Kubecon and the CNCF. It's just been really impressive and they maintain that. And this is the key. >> And I think what's impressive is that they've evolved. They've continued, they haven't sat there and said, "We've got a couple of fantastic projects," right? They're bringing in new ones all the time. They're staying at the cutting edge. They're looking at serverless and making sure there's projects that are taking care of that. And so I think that's, what's keeping it relevant, is the fact that they're relentlessly evolving. >> Yeah, and we comment, I think two years ago, Stu and I were pontificating about, can they maintain it? And one of the things that we were predicting, I want to get your reaction to this is that as Kubernetes becomes more standard and you're starting to see the tipping point now where it's beyond just testing and deploying in some clusters, you're starting to see Kubernetes native and in part of everything, in part of the future as service meshes and wrap around it and other things, the commercialization, the success of the vendor side is starting to be there. You starting to see real viable companies be started. So do they become end-users or so? So the question was, can it maintain its open source vibe while you have all this commercialization going on? Because that's always the challenge in open source. How do you balance it? What's your reaction to that threat or maybe an opportunity? >> I don't think it's a threat. I think there will always be folks who want to do it themselves. They want to use the vanilla upstream, Kubernetes. They want to build it. They don't want any vendor interference. There's also a very other solid other camp that says, "No, no, we don't want to deal with the updates ourselves. We don't want to deal with the integration with networking and security and all those things." And the vendor takes care of that. So I really think it's just serving two different audiences that as far as I can tell are changing, they're not, I don't see one side growing and one side shrinking. I really see it staying same, pretty stable. And so it's serving both teams. >> Yeah, I totally agree. And this is what's great about evolution. And when you talk about the community gets about the people involved. And I was riffing with someone the other day and were like, "Hey, you know what makes CNCF different?" And we were saying that everyone kind of knows each other. So as you have, you know, the most popular thing at Kubecon is the hallway tracks, right? So hallway tracks are always popular. And just being in the hallways, we call it lobby con and the CUBES on the floor there. So there's a lot of hallway conversations as hallway tracks, there's lightening talks, there's always something exciting, but even though people might move around from company to company for project to project, everyone kind of knows each other. So I think that kind of gives this kind of self governance piece, some legs. >> It does, and you're bringing up something that's really relevant right now 'cause it's virtual this year, right? So we don't get to have those hallway conversations. We don't get to have those, you know, accidental, you know, connections that means so much. I think they did an amazing job, amazing with the European version of Kubecon and you know, they're doing the best they can, I think the attend, I heard the attendance was great. The sessions were incredible from an efficiency standpoint. If you're an attendee, you could hit so many more sessions from home. There was so much to learn, the content was fabulous. The one thing that's missing, and I don't know how they replicate it is that ability to connect with your colleagues in the hallway, the folks you haven't seen'cause they, they moved on, they went to a different company. Maybe they'd been to two or three companies since you saw them last and the one place, you know, you're going to see them is at Kubecon or some of the other conferences you attend. >> Yeah and talking to Priyanka. And some of the co-chairs one of the things that was interesting out of that last conference was you had the virtual theater, but the Slack channel was very engaging. So you had people leaning in on the dialogue and it's interesting. And this is where I want to ask you your thoughts on the top conversations as we prepare. And we start doing the remote interviews, with the leaders of the CNCF, as well as the top end users, as well as vendors and companies, people want to know what's the top conversation that's happening and what are we looking for? So I want to ask you, what are you looking for, Ali? What are the things that you're trying to squint through? What smoke signals you're looking for? What's the trends that you're trying to tease out a coupon this year? >> I'm going to be really interested. You know, I already mentioned it once, but I'm going to be interested to hear how the new serverless projects are going. I know there are a couple in incubation that sounds really interesting. Priyanka brought them up when I've spoken with her. And so I'd love to see if those are getting so traction. What does the momentum around those look like? Is there as much excitement service meshes there was last year. I know there was a lot of discussion about what was happening with search. Most people were really excited. So I want to know what's happening with that. I want to know how new users to the community are dealing with the proliferation of projects. You know, how are they finding out ways to get involved? How are we nurturing new members to the CNCF community and making sure that they aren't overwhelmed, that they find their niche and they're able to contribute to become users, to do whatever their role is meant to be. I think those are the interesting things to me. How about you? >> That's a good question. I mean, I've, there's so many things. I mean, I look at the first of all, the open source projects are phenomenal. And again, talking about the people, I love to see the things that are maturing and getting promoted and what's kind of in sandbox, but I look at the, some of the ecosystem landscape maps with the vendors. And if you look at Amazon, Cisco and the HPE, IBM cloud, red hat, VMware to name a few, and you've got some other companies like Convolt for instance, which is pivoting to a cloud service, Microsoft Palo Alto networks for security Rancho was acquired., you know, a lot of companies are, I think at capital one out there, always in great end. You always great stuff. You got interesting and in Docker, for example, cup Docker containers, we did Docker con this year and I was blown away by the demand, the interest and just the openness of DAPA as they re-pivoted back to their roots. But I'm interested to see how the big cloud vendors are going to play because Google has always been an impressive and dominant partner in KubeCon, Amazon then joined, Azure is in there as well. So you've got those three, the big three in there. So the question is, okay, as this ecosystem is growing, I'm trying to tease out what is this, everything as a service, because one of the things that's coming out on the customer side, if you work backwards from the customer, they're getting kind of the missions from the CEOs and the CIO or CSO saying, "Take everything as a service," which is kind of like, I call it the ivory tower kind of marching orders. And then it gets handed down to the cloud architects and the developers and they go, "What's that? How's that, how does it's kind of hard?" It's not easy, right? So the modern apps is one and then this, everything as a service business model is going to be based upon cloud native. So I think the cloud native, this is the year that cloud native is going to start showing some signs and some visibility into what the metrics are going to be for success around the key projects. And then who can deliver at scale, do everything is a service. So, you know, understanding what that means, what does Kubernetes enable? What are some of the new things? So to me, I'm trying to tease that out because I think that's the next big wave. Everything is a service. And then what that means technically, how do you achieve it? Because when you start rolling out, it's like, okay, what's next? >> Yeah, I wonder who are going to be the new super users that emerged from this, you know, who are going to be the companies that maybe didn't adopt early, they're getting in now and they start running with it and they do incredible new things with it. And the truth is going to your earlier point about whether or not commercializing that, you know, should it be an upstream thing where you're using it vanilla using, you know, pure Kubernetes or using a vendor version? The truth is when you start getting vendors involved and getting super users involved, and these big companies, they can throw 10, 20 people at projects as contributors. You know, I tend to think of open source as being a bunch of small companies, but the truth is it's a lot harder for a small company to dedicate multiple head count to full-time contributions, right? Well big company, you could throw a couple dozen at them and not even blink. And so that's, it's critical to the survival truthfully of the community that we have, these big companies get in there and run with it. >> You know, I was talking to Constance and Steven Augustus, they're both co-chairs of the event and Steven brought up something. That's interesting because it's the theme that's kind of talked about, but no one likes to talk about it because it's kind of important and ugly at the same time. It's security and I think one of the things that I'm looking for this year, Ali is, you know, there's a buzz word out there has been kind of overused, but it's still kind of relevant and it's called shift left. So shift left means how do you build security into the CICB pipeline? So developers don't have to come back and do stuff, right? So it's like baking security in. This is going to be kind of a nuance point because of course everyone wants security, but that's not what application developers think about every day, right? It's like, they're not like security people, right? So, but they got to have security. So I think whoever can crack the code on making security brain dead easy will be great. And how that works together with across multiple vendors. So to me, that's something that I want to understand more. I don't yet have a formed opinion on it, but certainly we're hearing "Shift left" a lot. >> Yes I agree 100% at first we had developers and operators. Then we had devOps. Now I hear sec devOps all the time. You know, that I started hearing that last year and now these poor developers, you know, suddenly they are, whether they want to be, or not, to some degree, they are responsible for their company security, because if they aren't integrating best practices into their code, then they are introducing vulnerabilities. And so it it's just fallen upon them, whether they signed up for it or not, it's fallen upon them. And it'll be real interesting to see how that plays out. >> Well, one of the things I'd love to do is get me, you John, Troy, Keith Townsend, Justin Warren, and certainly Corey Quinn on a podcast or CUBE interview because man, we would have some war stories and have some real good stories to tell the evolution of what's real. And what's not real. Certainly Cory queen allows to talk about kind of like squinting through the hype and calling out kind of what's real, but this is kind of really kind of what's going on with coop comes a lot of exciting things. So I have to ask you over the years within CNCF and cloud nativecon and Kubecon, what are some of your favorite memories or moments that you can share could be personal, could be professional, could be code, could be accompany. What's some of the things that you can share about some, some happy moments for Kubecon >> Sure, sure, I'd say for me, some of the best moments have been the recent pivot toward trying to take care of the attendees. You know, I don't remember if it was San Diego. I think it was San Diego where they brought in all the puppies or mental wellness. And there was a meditation room. I don't know if you went in there, but it was quiet. And there was just some very soft lighting and some quiet music. And I didn't know how much traction that was going to get amongst attendees, that room was packed every time I went in there, dead quiet people relaxing, the puppies were bananas. People were just hoarding around the puppies and wanting to pet them. And I just really liked the way that they had really thought of a bunch of different angles to try to make sure that people who have left their families, they've come to a different place. They're, they're, they're under stress. 'Cause they're probably traveling with their boss and a bunch of their colleagues and they're stressed. And so to make sure that they had a break, I thought that was really somewhere where KubeCon was ahead of a lot of the other conferences I see. And it wasn't a single approach. It wasn't, we're going to throw a bunch of dogs in the hallway. It was, we're going to do that. We're going to have a therapist do a session. We're going to have puzzles in a quiet area at the hallway. It really went all in. And so for me, that was one of my favorite things from recent years. I thought that was fantastic. How about you? >> It's been fun. I mean, it's just so many moments. I mean, I love the European show. We did one year when I first, first time they had rolled out in Europe and I thought that was just so small and intimate. Of course the big mega shows have been great with activity. I think, but one of my favorite moments was I was wandering in the lobby. This was in Europe. It was, and it was a huge EU event, I think 2018 might've been, and I'm kind of buzzing around the lobby and I had nothing to do that night. And it was like five to 11 different parties to go to. People have, you know, dinners. And I ran into one of the CNCF co-hosts and also she's a Google engineer and I'm like, "Hey, what are you guys doing?" I'm like, she's like, "Oh, we're going to the women's happy hour." And I'm like, "Oh, that's cool." I'm like, "It sounds good." And she invited me and I went with her and I was the only guy there, okay. >> Oh lucky you. >> And I looked around and it was packed. And I said to myself, this is freaking amazing. And it was great women, great leaders, smart, super awesome. And they were all welcomed me. I wasn't like being stared at either, by the way. So I'm like, okay, there was no line for the men's room either by the way, just to, you know, and I was like, good tweet there. But I felt really welcomed. And I thought that was very cool. It was packed. And I went back until it's too much. Do you can't believe it was just really awesome. I was in this awesome happy hour. And I remember saying to myself, "This community is inclusive, they're awesome. And it was just one of just a great moment. >> It's great you've got to be the other side of that, right? Because as a woman, I am always on the standard side of it, which has guys everywhere, there's very few women, but here's the thing I have never felt intimidated or uncomfortable in any way at a Kubecon I've always felt welcomed, I've had fabulous interactions. I've met people from around the world. And I try to explain to my kids actually, when we talk and they they'll say something sometime not xenophobic, maybe that's an overstatement, but they're little kids. They don't have a great understanding of the world. And I'll say, "Wait till you grow up and you go to one of these conferences, you'll realize that people from countries that even fear that some of them there's some of the kindest, nicest, most polite people I have ever met. And you walk away really feeling like you want to just throw your arms around everyone, that's been my experience anyway. S0 maybe I've been lucky, but I haven't had that intimidation factor at all. >> You got it, you've got a great mindset and your kids are lucky. And I feel like for me, the moment was the community is very open and inclusive. And I think theCUBE when we interview people, we want people who are smart, you know, and we interview a lot of great women and at KubeCon, it's been fantastic, so that's the highlight. And of course the grueling hours, and then, you know, people like to drink beer in this community. And I like beer, although I'd been trimming down a little bit because, you know, IPA's have been kind of getting heavy on me, but good beer drinkers. They like to have fun and they also work hard and it's a great community, so. >> And now you have to bring your own beer. Now that it's virtual, you have to keep your own IPA. >> Well, the joke was virtual is that we can have a better lunch at home. 'Cause that's always kind of like the event thing. But I think virtuals, I miss the face to face, but we get to talk to more people with remote and they get more traffic on the site, but hopefully when it comes back, it'll be hybrid and we'll still be kind of doing more remote, but more face-to-face. >> So well, and it's more affordable. I did not look at what the pricing is this time, but I know for the European version, the pricing was very fair, certainly more affordable than going in real life. And, you know, for some folks who really can't swing that travel costs and the registration fee, it's a great opportunity to get in on the cheap and suck up a lot of knowledge really quickly. >> Well, Ali, thank you for riffing on Kubecon preview. Thank you very much. And looking forward to hosting with you and thanks for co-hosting on theCUBE, appreciate it. >> Thank you so much, John. I enjoyed it. >> Thank you, okay you're watching theCUBE virtual. This is a Kubecon preview. I'm here with Ali. I'm a goo who's our new CUBE host helping out on the Kubecon looking forward to more interviews, this is the CUBE I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>Hello everyone. This is Dave Volante, and I want to welcome you to the cubes presentation of accelerating automation with Devon it in this special program, we're going to explore how to accelerate digital transformation and how the global pandemic is changing the way we work and the kinds of work that we do, the cube has pulled together experts from Cisco dev net. Now dev net is essentially Cisco as code. I've said many times in the cube that in my opinion, it's the most impressive initiative coming out of any established enterprise infrastructure company. What Cisco has done brilliantly with dev net is to create an API economy by leveraging its large infrastructure portfolio and its ecosystem. But the linchpin of dev net is the army of trained Cisco engineers, including those with the elite CC I E designation. Now dev net was conceived to train people on how to code infrastructure and develop applications in integrations. >>It's a platform to create new value and automation is a key to that creativity. So today you're going to hear from a number of experts. For example, TK key Anini is a distinguished engineer and a security pro. He's going to join us, his colleagues, Thomas Scheiber and Joe Vaccaro. They're going to help us understand how to apply automation to your data center networks, cloud, and security journeys. Cisco's Eric nip and Coon Jacobs will also be here with a look into Cisco's marketplace shifts. We'll also hear from dev net partners. Now let's kick things off with the architect of dev net, senior vice president and general manager of Cisco's dev net and CX ecosystem success. Susie, we roam around the globe. It's the cube presenting >>Decelerating automation with damnit >>Brought to you by Cisco. >>Hello and welcome to the cube. I'm Sean for a year host. We've got a great conversation, a virtual event, accelerating automation with dev net, Cisco dev net. And of course we got the Cisco brain trust here, our cube alumni, Susie wee vice president, senior vice president GM, and also CTO of Cisco dev net and ecosystem success CX, all that great stuff. Any Wade Lee, who's the director, a senior director of dev net certifications, Eric field, director of developer advocacy, Susie Mandy, Eric. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. Great to see you, John. So we're not in first, then we don't, can't be at the dev net zone. We can't be on site doing dev net, create all the great stuff we've been doing over the past few years. We're virtual the cube virtual. Thanks for coming on. Uh, Susie, I got to ask you because you know, we've been talking years ago when you started this mission and just the success you had has been awesome, but dev net create has brought on a whole nother connective tissue to the dev net community. This is what this ties into the theme, accelerating automation with dev net, because you said to me, I think four years ago, everything should be a service or X, a AAS as it's called and automation plays a critical role. Um, could you please share your vision because this is really important and still only five to 10% of the enterprises have containerized things. So there's a huge growth curve coming with developing and programmability. What's your, what's your vision? >>Yeah, absolutely. I mean, what we know is that as more and more businesses are coming online as well, I mean, they're all online, but as they're growing into the cloud is they're growing in new areas. As we're dealing with security is everyone's dealing with the pandemic. There's so many things going on, but what happens is there's an infrastructure that all of this is built on and that infrastructure has networking. It has security, it has all of your compute and everything that's in there. And what matters is how can you take a business application and tie it to that infrastructure? How can you take, you know, customer data? How can you take business applications? How can you connect up the world securely and then be able to, you know, really satisfy everything that businesses need. And in order to do that, you know, the whole new tool that we've always talked about is that the network is programmable. The infrastructure is programmable and you don't need just apps writing on top, but now they get to use all of that power of the infrastructure to perform even better. And in order to get there, what you need to do is automate everything. You can't configure networks manually. You can't be manually figuring out policies, but you want to use that agile infrastructure in which you can really use automation. You can rise to higher level business processes and tie all of that up and down the staff by leveraging automation. >>You know, I remember a few years ago when dev net created for started, I interviewed Todd Nightingale and we were talking about Meraki, you know, not to get in the weeds, but you know, switches and hubs and wireless. But if you look at what we were talking about, then this is kind of what's going on now. And we were just recently, I think our last physical event was a Cisco, um, uh, Europe in Barcelona before all the covert hit. And you had this massive cloud surgeon scale happening going on, right when the pandemic hit. And even now more than ever the cloud scale, the modern apps, the momentum hasn't stopped because there's more pressure now to continue addressing more innovation at scale because the pressure to do that, um, cause the business to stay alive and to get your thoughts on, um, what's going on in your world because you were there in person now we're six months in scale is huge. >>We are. Yeah, absolutely. And what happened is as all of our customers, as businesses around the world, as we ourselves all dealt with, how do we run a business from home? You know, how do we keep people safe? How do we keep people at home and how do we work? And then it turns out, you know, business keeps rolling, but we've had to automate even more because you have to go home and then figure out how from home, can I make sure that my it infrastructure is automated out from home? Can I make sure that every employee is out there working safely and securely, you know, things like call center workers, which had to go into physical locations and be in kind of, you know, just, you know, uh, blocked off rooms to really be secure with their company's information. They had to work from home. >>So we had to extend business applications to people's homes, uh, in countries like, you know, well around the world, but also in India where it was actually not, you know, not, they wouldn't let, they didn't have rules to let people work from home in these areas. So then what we had to do was automate everything and make sure that we could administer, you know, all of our customers could administer these systems from home. So that put extra stress on automation. It put extra stress on our customer's digital transformation and it just forced them to, you know, automate digitally, transform quicker. And they had to, because you couldn't just go into a server room and tweak your servers, you had to figure out how to automate all of that. And we're still all in that environment today. >>You know, one of the hottest trends before the pandemic was observability, uh, Coobernetti's serve, uh, microservices. So those things, again, all dev ops and you know, you guys got some acquisitions youth about thousand eyes. Um, um, you got a new one you just bought, um, recently port shift to raise the game and security, Kubernetes, all these microservices. So observability super hot, but then people go work at home. As you mentioned, how do you observe, what are you observing? The network is under a huge pressure. I mean, it's crashing on people's zooms and WebExes and, uh, education, huge amount of network pressure. How are people adapting to this and the app side? How are you guys looking at the what's being programmed? What are some of the things that you're seeing with use cases around this program? Ability, challenge and observability challenges. It's a huge deal. >>Yeah, absolutely. And, um, you know, going back to Todd Nightingale, right. You know, back when we talked to Todd before he had Meraki and he had designed this simplicity, this ease of use this cloud managed, you know, doing everything from one central place. And now he has Cisco's entire enterprise and cloud business. So he is now applying that at that bigger, at that bigger scale for Cisco and for our customers. And he is building in the observability and the dashboards and the automation of the API APIs into all of it. Um, but when we take a look at what our customers needed is again, they had to build it all in. Um, they had to build it. And what happened was how your network was doing, how secure your infrastructure was, how well you could enable people to work from home and how well you could reach customers. >>All of that used to be an it conversation. It became a CEO and a board level conversation. So all of a sudden CEOs were actually, you know, calling on the heads of it and the CIO and saying, you know, how's our VPN connectivity is everybody working from home, how many people are connected and able to work and what's their productivity. So all of a sudden, all these things that were really infrastructure, it stuff became a board level conversation. And, you know, once again, at first everybody was panicked and just figuring out how to get people. But now what we've seen in all of our customers is that they are now building in automation and digital transformation and these architectures, and that gives them a chance to build in that observability, you know, looking for those events, the dashboards, you know, so it really has, has been fantastic to see what our customers are doing and what our partners are doing to really rise to that next level. >>I know you got to go, but real quick, um, describe what accelerating automation with dev net means. >>Well, you've been following, you know, we've been working together on dev net and the vision of the infrastructure programmability and everything for quite some time. And the thing that's really happened is yes, you need to automate, but yes, it takes people to do that and you need the right skill sets and the programmability. So a networker can't be a networker. A networker has to be a network automation developer. And so it is about people and it is about bringing infrastructure expertise together with software expertise and letting people run things are definite community has risen to this challenge. Um, people have jumped in, they've gotten their certifications. We have thousands of people getting certified. Uh, you know, we have, you know, Cisco getting certified. We have individuals, we have partners, you know, they're just really rising to the occasion. So accelerate, accelerating automation while it is about going digital. It's also about people rising to the level of, you know, being able to put infrastructure and software expertise together to enable this next chapter of business applications of, you know, cloud directed businesses and cloud growth. So it actually is about people just as much as it is about automation and technology. >>And we got dev net created right around the corner of virtual unfortunate. Won't be in person, but we'll be virtual. Susie. Thank you for your time. We're going to dig into those people, challenges with Mandy and Eric. Thank you for coming on. I know you got to go, but stay with us. We're going to dig in with Mandy and Eric. Thanks. >>Thank you so much. Have fun. Thanks John. >>Okay. Mandy, you heard Susie is about people. And one of the things that's close to your heart you've been driving is a senior director of dev net certifications, um, is getting people leveled up. I mean the demand for skills, cybersecurity network, programmability automation, network design solution architect, cloud multi-cloud design. These are new skills that are needed. Can you give us the update on what you're doing to help people get into the acceleration of automation game? >>Oh yes, absolutely. The, you know, what we've been seeing is a lot of those business drivers that Susie was mentioning, those are, what's accelerating a lot of the technology changes and that's creating new job roles or new needs on existing job roles where they need new skills. We are seeing customers, partners, people in our community really starting to look at, you know, things like DevSecOps engineer, network, automation, engineer, network automation, which Susie >>Mentioned, and looking at how these fit into their organization, the problems that they solve in their organization. And then how do people build the skills to be able to take on these new job roles or add that job role to their current scope and broaden out and take on new challenges. >>Eric, I want to go to you for a quick second on this, um, um, piece of getting the certifications. Um, first, before you get started, describe what your role is as director of developer advocacy, because that's always changing and evolving. What's the state of it now because with COVID people are working at home, they have more time to contact, switch and get some certifications and that they can code more. What's your, what's your role? >>Absolutely. So it's interesting. It definitely is changing a lot. A lot of our historically a lot of focus for my team has been on those outward events. So going to the Devin that creates the Cisco lives and helping the community connect and to help share tech mountain technical information with them, um, doing hands on workshops and really getting people into how do you really start solving these problems? Um, so that's had to pivot quite a bit. Um, obviously Cisco live us. We committed very quickly to a virtual event when, when conditions changed and we're able to actually connect as we found out with a much larger audience. So, you know, as opposed to in person where you're bound by the parameters of, you know, how big the convention center is, uh, we were actually able to reach a worldwide audience with our, uh, our definite date that was kind of attached on to Cisco live. >>And we got great feedback from the audience that now we're actually able to get that same enablement out to so many more people that otherwise might not have been able to make it. Um, but to your broader question of, you know, what my team does. So that's one piece of it is getting that information out to the community. So as part of that, there's a lot of other things we do as well. We were always helping out build new sandboxes and your learning labs, things like that, that they can come and get whenever they're looking for it out on the dev net site. And then my team also looks after community, such as the Cisco learning network where this there's a huge community that has historically been there to support people working on their Cisco certifications. And we've seen a huge shift now in that group that all of the people that have been there for years are now looking at the domain certifications and helping other people that are trying to get on board with programmability. They're taking a lot of those same community enablement skills and propping up the community with, you know, helping you answer questions, helping provide content. They've moved now into the dev net space as well, and are helping people with that servicer. So it's great seeing the community come along and really see that >>I got to ask you on the trends around automation, what skills and what developer patterns are you seeing with automation? Are, is there anything in particular, obviously network automation has been around for a long time. Cisco has been leader in that, but as you move up, the stack as modern applications are building, do you see any patterns or trends around what is accelerating automation? What are people learning? Yeah, absolutely. >>So you mentioned, uh, observability was big before COVID and we actually really saw that amplified during COVID. So a lot of people have come to us looking for insights. How can I get that better observability, uh, now that we needed? Well, we're virtual. Um, so that's actually been a huge uptake and we've seen a lot of people that weren't necessarily out looking for things before that are now figuring out how can I do this at scale? And I think one good example that, uh, Susie was talking about the VPN example, and we actually had a number of SES in the Cisco community that had customers dealing with that very thing where they very quickly had to ramp up. And one in particular actually wrote a bunch of automation to go out and measure all of the different parameters that it departments might care about, about their firewalls, things that you do normally look at me all days, you would size your firewalls based on, you know, assuming a certain number of people working from home. >>And when that number went to a hundred percent things like licensing started coming into play, where they needed to make sure they had the right capacity in their platforms that they weren't necessarily designed for. So one of the STDs actually wrote a bunch of code to go out, use some open source tooling, to monitor and alert on these things and then published it. So the whole community could go out and get a copy of it, try it out their own environment. And we saw a lot of interest around that and trying to figure out, okay, now I can take that and I can adapt it to what I need to see for my observability. >>That's great. Mandy. I want to get your thoughts on this too, because as automation continues to scale, it's going to be a focus and people are at home and you guys had a lot of content online for you recorded every session that didn't the dev Ned zone learnings going on, sometimes linearly. And nonlinearly you got the certifications, which is great. That's key, key, great success there. People are interested, but what are the learnings? Are you seeing? What are people doing? What's the top top trends. >>Yeah. So what we're seeing is like you said, people are at home, they've got time. They want to advance their skillset. And just like any kind of learning people want choice because they want to be able to choose what's matches their time that's available and their learning style. So we're seeing some people who want to dive into full online study groups with mentors, leading them through a study plan. And we have two new, uh, expert led study groups like that. We're also seeing whole teams at different companies who want to do, uh, an immersive learning experience together, uh, with projects and office hours and things like that. And we have a new, um, offer that we've been putting together for people who want those kinds of team experiences called automation boot camp. And then we're also seeing individuals who want to be able to, you know, dive into a topic, do a hands on lab, get some skills, go to the rest of the day of do their work and then come back the next day. >>And so we have really modular self-driven hands on learning through the dev net fundamentals course, which is available through dev net. And then there's also people who are saying, I just want to use the technology. I like to experiment and then go, you know, read the instructions, read the manual, do the deeper learning. And so they're, they're spending a lot of time in our dev net sandbox, trying out different technologies, Cisco technologies with open source technologies, getting hands on and building things. And three areas where we're seeing a lot of interest in specific technologies. One is around SD wan. There's a huge interest in people skilling up there because of all the reasons that we've been talking about security is a focus area where people are dealing with new scale, new kinds of threats, having to deal with them in new ways and then automating their data center, using infrastructure as code type principles. So those are three areas where we're seeing a lot of interest and you'll be hearing some more about that at dev net create >>Awesome. Eric and Mandy, if you guys can wrap up, um, this accelerated automation with dev net package and a virtual event here, um, and also tee up dev net create because dev net create has been a very kind of grassroots, organically building momentum over the years. Again, it's super important cause it's now the app world coming together with networking, you know, end to end programmability and with everything as a service that you guys are doing everything with API APIs, um, only can imagine the enablement that's gonna name, uh, create, can you share the summary real quick on accelerating automation with, at and T up dev net create Mandy we'll start. Yeah. >>Yes. I'll go first. And then Eric can close this out. Um, so just like we've been talking about with you at every definite event over the past years, you know, that's bringing APIs across our whole portfolio and up and down the stack and accelerating, uh, automation with dev net. Susie mentioned the people aspect of that. The people skilling up and how that transformed teams, transforms teams. And I think that it's all connected in how businesses are being pushed on their transformation because of current events. That's also a great opportunity for people to advance their careers and take advantage of some of that quickly changing landscape. And so what I think about accelerating automation with dev net, it's about the dev community. It's about people getting those new skills and all the creativity and problem solving that will be unleashed by that community. With those new skills. >>Eric take us home. He accelerating automation, dev net and dev net create a lot of developer action going on in cloud native right now, your thoughts? >>Absolutely. I think it's exciting. I mentioned the transition to virtual for Devin that day, this year for Cisco live. And we're seeing, we're able to leverage it even further with creative this year. So, whereas it used to be, you know, confined by the walls that we were within for the event. Now we're actually able to do things like we're adding the start now track for people that want to be there. They want to be a developer, a network automation developer, for instance, we've now got attract just for them where they can get started and start learning. Some of the skills they'll need, even if some of the other technical sessions were a little bit deeper than what they were ready for. Um, so I love that we're able to bring that together with the experienced community that we usually do from across the industry, bringing us all kinds of innovative talks, talking about ways that they're leveraging technology, leveraging the cloud, to do new and interesting things to solve their business challenges. >>So I'm really excited to bring that whole mix together, as well as getting some of our business units together too, and talk straight from their engineering departments. What are they doing? What are they seeing? What are they thinking about when they're building new APIs into their platforms? What are the, what problems are they hoping that customers will be able to solve with them? So I think together seeing all of that and then bringing the community together from all of our usual channels. So like I said, Cisco learning network, we've got a ton of community coming together, sharing their ideas and helping each other grow those skills. I see nothing but acceleration ahead of us for automation. >>Awesome. Thanks so much, God, man, you can add, add one more thing. >>I'm just going to say the other really exciting thing about create this year with the virtual nature of it is it it's happening in three regions and um, you know, we're so excited to see the people joining from all the different regions and uh, content and speakers and the region stepping up to have things personalized to their area, to their community. And so that's a whole new experience for them that create that's going to be fantastic this year. Yeah. >>I was just gonna close out and just put the final bow on that by saying that you guys have always been successful with great content focused on the people in the community. I think now during what this virtual dev net virtual dev net create virtual, the cube virtual, I think we're learning new things. People working in teams and groups and sharing content, we're going to learn new things. We're going to try new things and ultimately people will rise up and we'll be resilient. I think when you have this kind of opportunity, it's really fun. And we'll, we'll, we'll ride the wave with you guys. So thank you so much for taking the time to come on the cube and talk about your awesome accelerating automation and dev net. Great. Looking forward to it. Thank you. >>Yeah. >>The cube virtual here in Palo Alto studios doing the remote content amendment say virtual until we're face to face. Thank you so much for watching and we'll see you at dev net create thanks for watching Jeffrey here with the cube. Uh, we have our ongoing coverage of the Cisco dev net event. It's really accelerating with automation and programmability in the new normal, and we know the new normal is definitely continuing to go. We've been doing this since the middle of March and now we're in October. So we're excited to have our next guest he's Thomas Sheba. He is the vice president of product management for data center for Cisco Thomas. Great to see you. >>Hey, good to see you too. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody can see on our background. >>Exactly, exactly. So, I mean, I'm curious, we've talked to a lot of people. We talked to a lot of leaders, you know, especially like back in March and April with this light moment, which was, >>You know, no time to prep and suddenly everybody has to work from home. Teachers got to teach from home. And so you've got the kids home, you've got the spouse home, everybody's home trying to get on the network and do their zoom calls and their classes. I'm curious from your perspective, you guys are right there on the, on the network you're right in the infrastructure. What did you hear and see kind of from your customers when suddenly, you know, March 16th hit and everybody had to go home? >>Well, good point, Hey, I do think we all appreciate the network much more than we used to do before. Uh, and then the only other difference is I'm really more on WebEx calls to zoom calls, but you know, otherwise, uh, yes. Um, what, what I do see actually is that as I said, network becomes much more obvious as a critical piece. And so before we really talked a lot about, uh, agility and flexibility these days, we talk much more about resiliency quite frankly. Uh, and what do I need to have in place with respect to network to get my things from left to right. And you know, it was 2000, he still West, as we say on the data center. Uh, and that just is for most of my customers, a very, very important topic at this point. Right. >>You know, it's, it's amazing to think, you know, had this happened, you know, five years ago, 10 years ago, you know, the ability for so many people in, in, in the information industry to be able to actually make that transition relatively seamlessly, uh, is, is actually pretty amazing. I'm sure there was some, some excitement and some kudos in terms of, you know, it, it is all based on the network and it is kind of this quiet thing in the background that nobody pays attention to. It's like a ref in the football game until they make a bad play. So, you know, it is pretty fascinating that you and your colleagues have put this infrastructure and that enabled us to really make that move with, with, with really no prep, no planning and actually have a whole lot of services delivered into our homes that we're used to getting at the office are used to getting at school. >>Yeah. And I mean, to your point, I mean, some of us did some planning. Can we clearly talking about some of these, these trends in the way I look at this trends as being distributed data centers and, um, having the ability to move your, your workloads and access for users to wherever you want to be. And so I think that clearly went on for a while. And so in a sense, we, we, we prep was, are normal, but we're prepping for it. Um, but as I said, resiliency just became so much more important than, you know, one of the things I actually do a little plot, a little, little, uh, Bret before a block I put out end of August around resiliency. Uh, you, you, if you didn't, if you didn't put this in place, you better put it in place. Because I think as we all know, we saw her March. This is like maybe two or three months, we're now in October. Um, and I sing, this is the new normal for some time being. >>Yeah, I think so. So let's stick on that theme in terms of trends, right? The other great trend as public cloud, um, and cloud and multi cloud, there's all types of variants on that theme you had in that blog post about, uh, resiliency in data center, cloud networking, data center cloud, you know, some people think, wait, it's, it's kind of an either, or I either got my data center or I've got my stuff in the cloud and I've got public cloud. And then as I said, hybrid cloud, you're talking really specifically about enabling, um, both inner inner data center resiliency within multi data centers within the same enterprise, as well as connecting to the cloud. That's probably counterintuitive for some people to think that that's something that Cisco is excited about and supporting. So I wonder if you can share, you know, kind of how the market is changing, how you guys are reacting and really putting the things in place to deliver customer choice. >>Yeah, no, it's actually, to me it's really not a counterintuitive because in the end was what, uh, I'm focusing on. And the company is focusing on is what our customers want to do and need to do. Uh, and that's really, um, would, you know, most people call hybrid cloud or multi-cloud, uh, in, in the end, what it is, what it is, is really the ability to have the flexibility to move your workloads where you want them to be. And there are different reasons why you want to place them, right? You might've placed them for security reasons. You might've played some clients reasons, depending on which customer segment you after, if you're in the United States or in Europe or in Asia, there are a lot of different reasons where you're going to put your things. And so I think in the end, what, uh, an enterprise looks for is that agility, flexibility, and resiliency. >>And so really what you want to put in place is what we call like the cloud on ramp, right? You need to have an ability to move sings as needed, but the logic context section, which we see in the, um, last couple of months, accelerating is really this whole seam around digital transformation, uh, which goes hand in hand then was, uh, the requirement on the at T side really do. And I T operations transformation, right. How it operates. Uh, and I think that's really exciting to see, and this is excellent. Well, a lot of my discussions, I was customers, uh, what does it actually mean with respect to the it organization and what are the operational changes? This a lot of our customers are going through quite frankly, accelerated right. Going through, >>Right. And, and automation is in the title of the event. So automation is, you know, is an increasingly important thing, you know, as the, as we know, and we hear all the time, you know, the flows of data, the complexity of the data, either on the security or the way the network's moving, or as you said, shifting workloads around, based on the dynamic situations, whether that's business security, et cetera, in a software defined networking has been around for a while. How are you seeing kind of this evolution in adding more automation, you know, to more and more processes to free up those, those, um, no kind of limited resources in terms of really skilled people to focus on the things that they should be focusing and not stuff that, that hopefully you can, you know, get a machine to run with some level of automation. Yeah. >>Yeah. That's a good point. And it said the tech line, I have, you know, sometimes when my mind is really going from a cloud ready, which has in most of the infrastructure is today to cloud native. And so let me a little expand on those, right? There's like the cloud ready is basically what we have put in place over the last five to six years, all the infrastructure that all our customers have, network infrastructure, all the nexus 9,000, they're all cloud ready. Right. And what this really means, do you have API APIs everywhere, right? Whether this is on the box, whether it's on the controller, whether this is on the operations tools, all of these are API enabled and that's just a foundation for automation, right? You have to have that. Now, the next step really is what do you do with that capability? Right? >>And this is the integration with a lot of automation tools. Uh, and that's a whole range, right? This is where the it operation transformation kicks in different customers at different speed, right? Some just, you know, I use these API APIs and use normal tools that they have in a network world just to pull information. Some customers go for it further and saying, I want to integrate this with like some CMDB tools. Some go even further and saying, this is like the cloud native pieces saying, Oh, I want to use, let's say red hat Ansible. I want to use, uh, how she called Terraform and use those things to actually drive how I manage my infrastructure. And so that's really the combination of the automation capability. Plus the integration was relevant cloud native enabling tools that really is happening at this point. We're seeing customers accelerating that, that motion, which really then drives us how they run their it operations. Right. And so that's a pretty exciting, exciting area to see, uh, giving us, I said, we have the infrastructure in place. There's no need for customers to actually do change something. Most of them have already the infrastructures that can do this is just no doing the operational change. The process changes to actually get there. >>Right. And it's funny, we, we recently covered, you know, PagerDuty and, and they highlight what you just talked about, the cloud native, which is, you know, all of these applications now are so interdependent on all these different API APIs, you know, pulling data from all these applications. So a, when they work great, it's terrific. But if there's a problem, you know, there's a whole lot of potential throats to choke out there and find, find those issues. And it's all being connected via the network. So, you know, it's even more critically important, not only for the application, but for all these little tiny components within the application to deliver, you know, ultimately a customer experience within a very small units of time, uh, so that you don't lose that customer or you, you complete that transaction. They, they check out of their shopping cart. You know, all these, these things that are now created with cloud native applications that just couldn't really do before. >>No, you're absolutely right. And that's, this is like, just to say, sit, I'm actually very excited because it opens up a lot of abilities for our customers, how they to actually structure the operation. Right. One of the nice things around this or automation plus a tool integration to an integration is you actually opened us up, not a sole automation train, not just to the network operations personnel. Right. You also open it up and can use this for the SecOps person or for the dev ops person or for the cloud ops engineering team. Right. Because the way it's structured, the way we built this, um, it's literally as an API interface and you can now decide, what is your process do you want to have? And what traditional process you have a request network, operation teams executes the request using these tools and then hand it back over. >>Or do you say, Hey, maybe some of these security things I gotta hand over the sec ups team and they can directly call, uh, these, these API is right, or even one step further. You can have the opportunity that the dev ops or the application team actually says, Hey, I got to write a whole infrastructure as code kind of a script or template, and I just execute. Right. And it's really just using what the infrastructure provides. And so that whole range of different user roles and our customer base, what they can do with the automation capability that's available. It's just very, very exciting way because it's literally unleashes a lot of flexibility, how they want to structure and how they want to rebuild the it operations processes. >>Interesting. You know, cause the, you know, the DevOps culture has taken over a lot, right. Obviously changed software programming for the last 20 years. And, and I think, you know, there's a, there's a lot of just kind of the concept of dev ops versus necessarily, you know, the actual things that you do to execute that technique. And I don't think most people would think of, you know, network ops or, you know, net ops, you know, whatever the equivalent is in the networking world to have, you know, kind of a fast changing dynamic, uh, kind of point of view versus a, you know, stick it in, you know, spec it, stick it in, lock it down. So I wonder if you can, you can share how, you know, kind of that dev ops, um, attitude point of view, workflow, whatever the right verb is, has impacted, you know, things at Cisco and the way you guys think about networking and flexibility within the networking world. >>Yeah, literally, absolutely. And again, it's all customer driven, right? There's none of those, none of this is really actually, you know, a little bit of credit, maybe some of us where we have a vision, but a lot of it's just customer driven feedback. Uh, and yeah, we, we do have network operations teams comes from saying, Hey, we use Ansible heavily on the compute side, we might use this for alpha seven. We want to use the same for networking. And so we made available all these integrations, uh, with sobriety as a state, whether these are the switches, whether these are ACI dcnm controller or our multi-site orchestration capabilities, all of these has Ansible integration the way to the right, the other one, as I mentioned, that how she from Turco Terraform, we have integrations available and they see the requests for these tools to use that. >>Uh, and so that is the emotion we're in for all the, you know, and, uh, another block actually does out there, we just posted saying all set what you can do and then a Palo to this, right. Just making the integration available. We also have a very, very heavy focus on definite and enablement and training, uh, and you know, a little clock. And I know, uh, probably, uh, part of the segment, the whole definite community that Cisco has is very, very vibrant. Uh, and the beauty of this is right. If you look at those, whether you're a net ops person or a dev ops person or a SecOps person, it doesn't really matter. It has a lot of like capability available to just help you get going or go from one level to the next level. Right? And there's simple things like sandbox environments where you can, we know what's out stress, try sinks out snippets of code are there, you can do all of these things. And so we do see it's a kind of a push and pull a tremendous amount of interest and a tremendous, uh, uh, time people spend to learn quite frankly, then that's another site product of, of, you know, the situation where, and people said, Oh man, and say, okay, online learning is the thing. So these, these, these tools are used very, very heavily, right? >>That's awesome. Cause you know, we've, we've had Susie Lee on a number of times and I know he and Mandy and the team really built this dev net thing. And it really follows along this other theme that we see consistently across other pieces of tech, which is democratization, right democratization of the access tool, taking it out of, of just a mahogany row with, again, a really limited number of people that know how to make it work and it can make the changes and then opening it up to a software defined world where now that the, you know, the it's as application centric, point of view, where the people that are building the apps to go create competitive advantage. Now don't have to wait for, you know, the one network person to help them out in and out of these environments. Really interesting. And I wonder if, you know, when you look at what's happened with public cloud and how they kind of change the buying parameter, how they kind of change the degree of difficulty to get project started, you know, how you guys have kind of integrated that, that type of thought process to make it easier for app developers to get their job done. >>Yeah. I mean, again, it's, it's, uh, I typically look at this more from a, from a customer lens, right? It's the transformation process and it always starts as I want agility. I want flexibility. I want to resiliency, right? This is where we talk to a business owner, what they're looking for. And then that translates into, into an I, to operations process, right? Your strategy needs to map then how you actually do this. Uh, and that just drives then what tools do you want to have available to actually enable this? Right? And the enablement again is for different roles, right? There is you need to give sync services to the app developer and, uh, the, the platform team and the security team, right. To your point. So the network, uh, can act at the same speed, but you also give to us to the network operations teams because they need to adjust. >>Then they have the ability to react to, uh, to some of these requirements. Right. And it's just automation. I think we, we, we focused on that, but there's also to your point, the, the need, how do I extend between data centers? You know, just, just for backup and recovery and how do I extend into, into public clouds, right? Uh, and in the end, that's a, that's a network connectivity problem. Uh, and we have soft as, uh, we have made as available. We have integrations into, uh, AWS. We have integrations into a joy to actually make this very easy from a, from a network perspective to extend your private domains, private networks into which have private networks on these public clouds. So from an app development perspective, now it looks like he's on the same network. It's a protective enterprise network. Some of it might sit here. >>Some of it might sit here, but it's really looking the same. And that's really in the enticing. What, what a business looks at, right? They don't necessarily want to say, I need to have something separate for this deployment was a separate for that deployment. What they want is I need to deploy something. I need to do this resilient. And the resilient way in an agile way gives me the tools. And so that's really where we focused, um, and what we're driving, right? It's that combination of automation consistently, and then definite tools, uh, available that we support. Uh, but they're all open. Uh, they're all standard tools as the ones I mentioned, right. That everybody's using. So I'm not getting into this, Oh, this is specific to Cisco, right. Uh, it's really democratization. I actually liked your term. Yeah. >>It's a great terminate. And it's, it's really interesting, especially with, with the API APIs and the way everything is so tied together that everyone kind of has to enable this because that's what the customer is demanding. Um, and it is all about the applications and the workloads and where those things are moving, but they don't really want to manage that. They just want to, you know, deliver business benefit to their customers and respond to, uh, you know, competitive threats in the marketplace, et cetera. So it's really an interesting time for the infrastructure, you know, to really support kind of this app first point of view, uh, versus the other way around is kind of what it used to be and, and enable this hyper fast development hyper fast, uh, change in the competitive landscape or else you will be left behind. Um, so super important stuff. >>Yeah, no, I totally agree. And as I said, I mean, it's, it's kind of interesting because we, we started on a Cisco data center. So we started this probably six or seven years ago. Uh, when we, when we named the application centric, uh, clearly a lot of these concepts evolve, uh, but in a sense it is that reversal of the role from the network provides something and you use to, uh, this is what I want to do. And I need a service, uh, thinking on a networking side to expose. So as that can be consumed. And so that clearly is playing out. Um, and as I said, automation is a key key foundation that we put in place, uh, and our customers, most of our customers at this point, uh, on, on these products, >>They have all the capabilities there. They can literally take advantage. There's really nothing that stops them >>Good times for you, because I'm sure you've seen all the memes and social media, right? What what's driving your digital transformation. Is it the CEO, the CMO or COVID, and we all know the answer to the question. So I don't think the, the pace of change is going to slow down anytime soon. So keeping the network up and enabling us all to get done, what we have to get done and all the little magic that happens behind the scenes. >>Yeah. No thanks. Thanks for having me. And again, yeah. If you're listening and you're wondering, how do I get started Cisco? Definitely just the place to go. It's fantastic. Fantastic. And I highly recommend everybody roll up your sleeves, you know, the best reasons you can have. >>Yeah. And we know once the physical events come back, we've been to dev net create a bunch of times, and it's a super vibrant, super excited, but really engaged community sharing. Lots of information is kind of, it's still kind of that early vibe, you know, where everyone is still really enthusiastic and really about learning and sharing information. So I say Susie and the team are really built a great thing, and we're a, we're happy to continue to cover it. And eventually we'll be back, uh, face to face. >>Okay. I look forward to that as well. >>All right, thanks. Uh, he's Thomas I'm Jeff, you're watching continuing coverage of Cisco dev net accelerating with automation and programmability >>TK Kia. Nini is here. He's a distinguished engineer at Cisco TK, my friend. Good to see you again. How are you? Good. I mean, you and I were in Barcelona in January and, you know, we knew we saw this thing coming, but we didn't see it coming this way. Did we know that no one did, but yeah, that was right before everything happened. Well, it's weird. Right? I mean, we were, you know, we, we, it was in the back of our minds in January, we sort of had Barcelona's hasn't really been hit yet. It looked like it was really isolated in China, but, uh, but wow, what a change and I guess, I guess I'd say I'd start with the, we're seeing really a secular change in your space and security identity, access management, cloud security, endpoint security. I mean, all of a sudden these things explode as the work from home pivot has occurred. >>Uh, and it feels like these changes are permanent or semi-permanent, what are you seeing out there? Yeah, I don't, I don't think anybody thinks the world's going to go back the way it was. Um, to some degree it's, it's changed forever. Um, you know, I, I, I do a lot of my work remotely. Um, and, and so, you know, being a remote worker, isn't such a big deal for me, but for some, it was a huge impact. And like I said, you know, um, remote work, remote education, you know, everybody's on the opposite side, a computer. And so the digital infrastructure has just become a lot more important to protect. And the integrity of it essentially is almost our own integrity these days. >>Yeah. And when you see that, you know, that work from home pivot, I mean, you know, our estimates are along with a partner DTR about 16% of the workforce was at home working from home prior to COVID and now it's, you know, North of 70% plus, and that's going to come down maybe a little bit over the next six months. We'll see what happens with the fall surge, but, but people essentially accept, expect that to at least double that 16%, you know, going forward indefinitely. So how, what is that, what kind of pressure does that put on the security infrastructure and how, how organizations are approaching security? >>Yeah, I just think, uh, from a mindset standpoint, you know, what was optional, uh, maybe, um, last year, uh, is no longer optional and I don't think it's going to go back. Um, I think, I think a lot of people, uh, have changed the way, you know, they live and the way they work. Um, and they're doing it in ways, hopefully that in some cases, uh, yield more productivity, um, again, um, you know, usually with technology that's severely effective, it doesn't pick sides. So the security slant to it is it frankly works just as well for the bad guys. And so that's, that's the balance we need to keep, which is we need to be extra diligent, uh, on how we go about securing infrastructure, uh, how we go about securing even our social channels, because remember all our social channels now are digital. So that's, that's become the new norm. >>You know, you've helped me understand over the years. I remember a line you shared with me in the cube one time is that the adversary is highly capable, is sort of the phrase that you used. And essentially the way you describe it, as you know, your job as a security practitioner is to decrease the bad guy's return on investment, you know, increase their costs, increase the numerator, but as, as work shifts from home, yeah, I'm in my house, you know, my wifi in my, you know, router with my dog's name is the password. You know, it's much, much harder for me to, to increase that denominator at home. So how can you help? >>Yeah. I mean, it's, it is, it is truly, um, when you think, when you get into the mind of the adversary and, and, uh, you know, the cyber crime out there, they're honestly just like any other business they're trying to operate with high margin. And so if you can get there, if you can get in there and erode their margin, frankly go find something else to do. Um, and, and again, you know, you know, the shift we experienced day to day is it's not just our kids are online in school and, uh, our work is online, but all the groceries we order, um, uh, you know, this Thanksgiving and holiday season, uh, a lot more online shopping is going to take place. So, you know, everything's gone digital. And so the question is, you know, how, how do we up our game there so that we can go about our business, uh, effectively and make it very expensive for the adversary to operate, uh, and take care of their business? Cause it's nasty stuff. >>I want to ask you about automation generally, and then specifically how it applies to security. So we, I mean, we certainly saw the ascendancy of the hyperscalers and of course they really attacked the it labor problem. We learned a lot from that and an it organizations have applied much of that thinking. And the it's critical at scale. I mean, you just can't scale humans at the pace, the technology scales today, how does that apply to security and specifically, how is automation affecting security? >>Yeah, it's, it's, it's the topic these days. Um, you know, businesses, I think, realize that they can't continue to grow at human scale. And so the reason why automation and things like AI and machine learning have a lot of value is because everyone's trying to expand, uh, and operate at machine scale. Now, I mean that for, for businesses, I mean that for education and everything else now, so are the adversaries, right? So it's expensive for them to operate at Cuban scale and they are going to machine scale, going to machine scale, uh, a necessity is that you're going to have to harness some level of automation, have the machines, uh, work on your behalf, have the machines carry your intent. Um, and when you do that, um, you can do it safely or you could do it dangerously. And that that's really kind of your choice. Um, you know, just because you can automate something doesn't mean you should, um, you, you wanna make sure that frankly, the adversary can't get in there and use that automation on their behalf. So it's, it's a tricky thing because, you know, if when you take the phrase, you know, how do we, how do we automate security? Well, you actually have, uh, take care of, of securing the automation first. >>Yeah. We talked about this in Barcelona, where you were explaining that, you know, the bad guys, the adversaries are essentially, you know, weaponizing using your own tooling, which makes them appear safe because it's, they're hiding in plain sight. Right? >>Well, there's, they're clever, uh, give them that, um, you know, there's this phrase that they, they always talk about called living off the land. Um, there's no sense in them coming into your network and bringing their tools and, uh, and being detective, you know, if they can use the tools that's already there, then, uh, they have a higher degree of, of evading, uh, your protection. If they can pose as Alice or Bob, who's already been credentialed and move around your network, then they're moving around the network as Alice or Bob. They're not marked as the adversary. So again, you know, having the detection methods available to find their behavior anomalies and things like that become a paramount, but also, you know, having the automation to contain them, to eradicate them, to, you know, minimize their effectiveness, um, without it, I mean, ideally without human interaction, cause you, you just, can you move faster, you move quicker. Um, and I see that with an asterisk because, um, if done wrong, frankly, um, you're just making their job more effective. >>I wonder if we could talk about the market a little bit, uh, it's I'm in the security space, cybersecurity 80 plus billion, which by the way, is just a little infant testable component of our GDP. So we're not spending nearly enough to protect that, that massive, uh, GDP, but guys, I wonder if you could bring up the chart because when you talk to CSOs and you ask them, what's your, what's your biggest challenge? They'll say lack of talent. And, and so what this chart shows is from ETR, our, or our survey partner, and on the vertical axis is net score. And that's an indication of spending momentum on the horizontal axis is market share, which is a measure of presence, a pervasiveness, if you will, inside the datasets. And so there's a couple of key points here. I wanted to put forth to our audience and then get your reactions. >>So you can see Cisco, I highlighted in red, Cisco is business and security is very, very strong. We see it every quarter. It's a growth area that Chuck Robbins talks about on the, on the conference call. And so you can see on the horizontal axis, you've got a big presence in the data set. I mean, Microsoft is out there, but they're everywhere, but you're right there, uh, in that, in that dataset. And then you've got for such a large presence, you've got a lot of momentum in the marketplace, so that's very impressive. But the other point here is you've got this huge buffet of options. There's just a zillion vendors here. And that just adds to the complexity. This is of course only a subset of what's in the security space. You know, the people who answered for the survey. So my question is how can Cisco help, you know, simplify this picture? Is it automation? Is it, you know, you guys have done some really interesting tuck in acquisitions and you're bringing that integration together. Can you talk about that a little bit? >>Yeah. I mean, that's an impressive chart. I mean, when you look to the left there it's, um, I had a customer tell me once that, you know, I came to this trade show, looking for transportation and these people are trying to sell me car parts. Um, that's the frustration customers have, you know, and I think what Cisco has done really well is to really focus on outcomes. Um, what is the customer outcome? Cause ultimately that's, that is what the customer wants. You know, there might be a few steps to get to that outcome, but the closest closer you can get to delivering outcomes for the customer, the better you are. And I think, I think security in general has just year over year have been just written with, um, you need to be an expert. Um, you need to buy all these parts and put it together yourself. And, and I think, I think those days are behind us, but particularly as, as security becomes more pervasive and we're, you know, we're selling to the business, we're not selling to the, you know, t-shirt wearing hacker anymore. >>Yeah. So, well, well how does cloud fit in here? Because I think there's a lot of misconceptions about cloud people that God put my data in the cloud I'm safe, but you know, of course we know it's a shared responsibility model. So I'm interested in your, your thoughts on that. Is it really, is it a sense of complacency? A lot of the cloud vendors, by the way, say, Oh, the state of security is great in the cloud. Whereas many of us out there saying, wow, it's, it's not so great. Uh, so what are your thoughts on that, that whole narrative and what Cisco's play in cloud? >>I think cloud, um, when you look at the services that are delivered via the cloud, you see that exact pattern, which is you see customers paying for the outcome or as close to the outcome as possible. Um, you know, no, no data center required, no disk drive required, you just get storage, you know, it's, it's, it's all of those things that are again, closer to the outcome. I think the thing that interests me about cloud two is it's really been, it's really punctuated the way we go about building systems. Um, again at machine scale. So, you know, before, when I write code and I think about, Oh, what computers are gonna run on or, you know, what servers are going to is you're going to run on those. Those thoughts never crossed my mind anymore. You know, I'm modeling the intent of what the service should do and the machines then figure it out. So, you know, for instance, on Tuesday, if the entire internet shows up, uh, the, the system works without fail. And if on Wednesday, if only North America shows up, you know, so, but, but there's no way you could staff that, right. There's just no human scale approach that gets you there. And that's, that's the beauty of all of this cloud stuff is, um, it really is, uh, the next level of how we do computer science. >>So you're talking about infrastructure as code and that applies to security as code. That's what dev net is really all about. I've said many times, I think Cisco of the large established enterprise companies is one of the few, if not the only, that really has figured out, you know, that developer angle, because it's practical. What are you doing? You're not trying to force your way into developers, but, you know, I wonder if you could, you could talk a little bit about that trend and where you see it going. >>Yeah, no, that is, that is truly the trend. Every time I walk into dev net, um, the big halls at Cisco live, it is Cisco as code. Um, everything about Cisco is being presented through an API. It is automation ready. And frankly, that is, um, that is the, the love language of the cloud. Um, it's it's machines is the machines talking to machines in very effective ways. So, you know, it is the, the, uh, I, I think, I think necessary, maybe not sufficient but necessary for, um, you know, doing all the machine scale stuff. What what's also necessary, uh, is to, um, to secure if infrastructure is code therefore, um, what, what secure, uh, what security methodologies do we have today that we use to secure code? While we have automated testing, we have threat modeling, right? Those things actually have to be now applied to infrastructure. So then when I, when I talk about how do you do, uh, automation securely, you do it the same way you secure your code, you test it, you, you threat model, you, you, you say, you know, Ken, my adversary, uh, exhibit something here that drives the automation in a way that I didn't intend it to go. Um, so all of those practices apply. It's just, everything has code these days. >>I've often said that security and privacy are sort of two sides of the same coin. And I want to ask you a question and it's really, you know, to me, it's not necessarily Cisco and company like companies like Cisco's responsibility, but I wonder if there's a way in which you can help. And of course, there's this Netflix documentary circling around the social dilemma. I don't know if you have a chance to see it, but basically dramatizes the way in which companies are appropriating our data to sell us ads and, you know, creating our own little set of facts, et cetera. And that comes down to sort of how we think about privacy and admin. It's good from the standpoint of awareness, you know, you may or may not care if you're a social media user. I love tick-tock, I don't care, but, but, but they, they sort of laid out. This is pretty scary scenario with a lot of the inventors of those technologies. You have any thoughts on that and you'll consist go play a role there in terms of protecting our privacy. I mean, beyond GDPR and California, consumer privacy act, um, what do you think? >>Yeah. Um, uh, I'll give you my, you know, my humble opinion is you, you fix social problems with social tools, you fixed technology problems with technology tools. Um, I think there is a social problem, um, that needs to be rectified the, you know, um, we, we, weren't built as, um, human beings to live and interact with an environment that agrees with us all the time. It's just pretty wrong. So yeah, that, that, that, um, that series that really kind of wake up a lot of people it is, is, you know, it's probably every day I hear somebody asked me if I, I saw, um, but I do think it also, you know, with that level of awareness, I think we, we overcome it or we compensate by what number one, just being aware that it's happening. Um, number two, you know, how you go about solving it, I think maybe come down to an individual or even a communities, um, solution and what might be right for one community might be, you know, not the same for the other. So you have to be respectful in that manner. >>Yeah. So it's, it's, it's almost, I think if I could play back, what I heard is, is yeah. Technology, you know, maybe got us into this problem, but technology alone is not going to get us out of the problem. It's not like some magic AI bot is going to solve this. It's got to be, you know, society has to really, really take this on as your premise. >>That's a good point. When I, when I first started playing online games, I'm going back to the text-based adventure stuff, like muds and moves. I did a talk at, at MIT one time, and I'm this old curmudgeon in the back of the room. Um, we were talking about democracy and we were talking about, you know, the social processes that we had modeled in our game and this and that. And this guy just gave us the SmackDown. He basically walked up to the front of the room and said, you know, all you techies, you judge efficiency by how long it takes. He says, democracy is a completely the opposite, which is you need to sleep on it. In fact, you should be scared if somebody can decide in a minute, what is good for the community? It, two weeks later, they probably have a better idea of what's good for the community. So it almost has the opposite. And that was super interesting to me. >>That's really interesting, you know, you read the, like the, the Lincoln historians and he was criticized in the day for having taken so long, you know, to make certain decisions, but ultimately when he acted acted with, with confidence. Um, so to that point, but, um, so what, what else are you working on these days that, uh, that are, that is interesting that maybe you want to share with our audience? Anything that's really super exciting for you or you, >>Yeah. You know, generally speaking, I'm trying to try and make it a little harder for the bad guys to operate. I guess that's a general theme making it simpler for the common person to use, uh, tools. Um, again, you know, all of these security tools, no matter how fancy it is, it's not that we're losing the complexity, it's that we're moving the complexity away from the user so that they can thrive at human scale. And we can do things at machine scale and kind of working those two together is sort of the, the magic recipe. Um, it's, it's not easy, but, um, but it is, it is fun. So that's, that's what keeps me engaged. >>I'm definitely seeing, I wonder if you see it just sort of a, obviously a heightened organization awareness, but I'm also seeing shifts in the organizational structures. You know, the, you know, it used to be a sec ops team and an Island. Okay, it's your problem? You know, the, the, the CSO cannot report into the, to the CIO because that's like the Fox in the hen house, a lot of those structures are, are, are changing. It seems it'd be becoming this responsibility is coming much more ubiquitous across the organization. What are you seeing there and what are you putting on? >>And it's so familiar to me because, you know, um, I, I started out as a musician. So, you know, bands bands are a great analogy. You know, you play bass, I big guitar. You know, somebody else plays drums, everybody knows their role and you create something that's larger than, you know, the sum of all parts. And so that, that analogy I think, is coming to, you know, we, we saw it sort of with dev ops where, you know, the developer, doesn't just throw their coat over the wall and it's somebody else's problem. They move together as a band. And, and that's what I think, um, organizations are seeing is that, you know, why, why stop there? Why not include marketing? Why not include sales? Why don't we move together as a business? Not just here's the product and here's the rest of the business. That's, that's, that's pretty awesome. Um, I think, uh, we see a lot of those patterns, uh, particularly for the highly high-performance businesses. >>No, in fact, it's interesting you for great analogy, by the way. And you actually see in that within Cisco, you're seeing sort of a, and I know sometimes you guys don't like to talk about the plumbing, but I think it matters. I mean, you got a leadership structure now. I I've talked to many of them. They seem to really be more focused on how they're connect, connecting, you know, across organizations. And it's increasingly critical in this world of, you know, of silo busters, isn't it? Yeah, no, I mean, you almost, as, as you move further and further away, you know, you can see how ridiculous it was before it would be like acquiring the band and say, okay, all you can talk later is go over here. All your bass players go over there. I'm like, what happened to the band? >>That's what I'm talking about is, you know, moving all of those disciplines, moving together and servicing the same backlog and achieving the same successes together is just so awesome. Well, I always, I always feel better after talking to you. You know, I remember I remember art. Coviello used to put out his, his letter every year and I was reading. I'd get depressed. We spend all this money now we're less secure. But when I talked to you TK, I feel like much more optimistic. So I really appreciate the time you spend on the cube. It's awesome to have you as a guest. I love these, I love these sessions. So thanks. Thanks for inviting me. And I miss you. I, you know, hopefully, you know, next year we can get together at some of the Cisco shows or other shows, but be well and stay weird. Like the sign says doing my part to get Kenny, thanks so much for coming to the cube. We, uh, we really appreciate it. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante. We've right back with our next guest. This short break, >>Come back to the cubes coverage, just to keep virtuals coverage of dev net create virtual will not face to face the cubes. Been there with dev net and dev net create. Since the beginning, dev net create was really a part of the dev net community. Looking out at the external market outside of Cisco, which essentially is the cloud native world, which is going mainstream. We've got a great guest here. Who's who's been the company's been on the cube. Many times. We've been talking to them recently acquired by Cisco thousand eyes. We have Joe Vaccaro is BC vice president of product, Joe, welcome to the cube. Thanks for coming on. Great. And thanks for having me. You have the keys to the kingdom, you, the vice president of product, which means you get to look inside and you get to look outside, figure it all out, uh, make everything run on thousand eyes. >>You guys have been finding common language, uh, across multiple layers of network intelligence, external services. This is the heart of what we're seeing in innovation with multicloud microservices, cloud native. This is really a hot area. It's converging multiple theaters in technology. Super important. I want to get into that with you. But first thousand nine was recently acquired by Cisco, um, big acquisition, uh, super important new CEO of Cisco, very clear API, everything we're seeing that come out. That's a big theme at dev net create the ecosystem of Cisco's going outside their own, you know, their, their walls outside of the Cisco network operators, network engineers. We're talking to developers talk programmability. This is the big theme. What's it like at Cisco? Tell us, honestly, the COVID hits. You get acquired by Cisco, tell us what's happening. >>Yeah, surely been an exciting six months, 4,000 eyes on the entire team and our customers, you know, as we all kind of shifted to the new normal of working from home. And I think, you know, that change alone really kind of amplified. Even some of the fundamental beliefs that we have as a company that you know, cloud is becoming the new data center or customers that Indra internet has become the new network and the new enterprise network backbone. And that SAS has really become the new application stack. And as you think about these last six months, those fundamental truths have never been more evident as we rely upon the cloud to be able to, to work as we rely upon our own home networks and the internet in order to be productive. And as we access more sized applications on a daily basis. And as you think about those fundamental truths, what's common across all of them is that you rely upon them now more than ever, not only to run your business, but to any of your employees would be productive, but you don't own them. And if you don't own them, then you lack the ability in a traditional way to be able to understand that digital experience. And I think that's ultimately what, what thousand eyes is trying to solve for. And I think it's really being amplified in really these last six months. >>Talk about the COVID dynamic because I think it highlighted and certainly accelerated digital transformation, but specifically exposes opportunities, challenges, weaknesses, I've talked to many CXOs CSOs. Uh, sec security is huge. Um, home of the conference book talk track, we'll get to in a second, but exposes what's worth doubling down on what to abandon from a project standpoint, as people start to look at their priorities, they're going, Hey, we got to have a connected experience. We got to have security. People are working at home. No one has VPNs at home VPNs or passe, maybe it's way. And maybe it's something else they're on a backbone. They're connecting to the internet, a lot of different diversity in connections. At the same time, you got a ton of modern apps running along for these networks. This is a huge issue. COVID is exposed us at scale. What's your view on this? And what does thousand eyes thinking about this? >>You know, if you think about the kind of legacy application delivery, it went from largely users in an office connected over, say a dedicated corporate network, largely to traditional say internal hosted applications. And that was early simple connectivity bath. And as you mentioned, we've seen amplifications in terms of the diversity from the users. So users are not in the office. Now they're connected in distributed disparate locations that are dynamically changing. When you think that how they're getting to that application, they're going across a really complex service chain of different network services that are working together across as public internet backbone will totally to land them on an application. And then those applications themselves are becoming now, as you mentioned, distributed largely based upon a microservices architecture and increasing their own dependence upon third party sample size applications to fulfill say key functions of that application, those three things together. >>Ultimately you're creating that level of level of complex service chain that really makes it difficult to understand the digital experience. And ultimately the it organization it's really chartered with not just delivering the infrastructure, but delivering the right experience. And you have to then have a way to be able to see, to gain that visibility, that experience, you know, to measure it and understand, and to provide that intelligence and then ultimately to act on it, be able to ensure that your employees, as well as your customers are getting the right overall, um, approach to being able to leverage those assets. >>It's funny, you know, I was getting to some of these high scale environments, a lot of these concepts are converging. You know, we had terms like automation, self healing networks. Um, you mentioned microservices early, you mentioned data out of the clouds, the new data center, uh, or when's the new land. However, we're gonna look at it. It's a whole different architecture. So I want to get your thoughts on, on the automation piece of networking and internet outages, for instance, um, because when you, you know, there's so many outages going up and down, it is like, uh, catching, looking for a needle in a haystack, right. So, um, we've had this conversation with you guys on the cube before, how does automation occur when you guys look at those kinds of things? Uh, what's important to look at, can you comment on and react to, you know, the internet outages and how you find resolve those? >>Yeah. It's um, it was really great. And as you mentioned, automation really in a place that a key, when you think about the, just a broad problem that it is trying to drive and, you know, from our lens, we look at it in really three ways. You're first off is you have to be able to gain the level of visibility from where it matters and be able to, to test and be able to provide that level of active measurements across the, the type of ways you want to be able to inspect the network. But then also from the right vantage points, you want to inspect it. But what we talk about right aside, you know, data alone, doesn't solve that problem. As you mentioned, that needle in the haystack, you know, data just provides the raw metrics that are screaming across the screen, and you have to then enable that data to provide meeting. >>You need to enable that data become intelligent. And that intelligence comes through the automation of being able to process that data very quickly, allow you to be able to see the unseen, allow you to be able to quickly understand the issues that are happening across this digital supply chain to identify issues that are even happening outside of your own control across the public internet. And then the last step of automation really comes in the, of the action, right? How do you enable that intelligence to be put, to use? How do you enable that intelligence to then drive across the rest of your it workflow as well as to be able to be used as a signaling engine, to be able to then make the fundamental changes back at the network fabric, whether that is a dressing or modifying your BGB pairing, that we see happen with our customers using thousand eyes data, to be able to route around major internet outages that we've seen over the past six months, or to be able to then use that data, to be able to optimize the ultimate experience that they're delivering to both our customers, as well as their employees, >>Classic policy based activities. And you take it to a whole nother level. I got to get your thoughts on the employees working at home. Okay. Because, um, you know, most it people like, Oh yeah, we're going to forecast in cases of disruption or a hurricane or a flood or hurricane Sandy, but now with COVID, everyone's working at home. So who would have forecasted a hundred percent, um, you know, work from home, which puts a lot of pressure on him, everything. So I gotta ask you, now that employees are working at home, how do you tie network visibility to the actual user experience? >>Yeah, that's a great question. As you, you know, we saw within our own customer base, you know, when COVID head and we saw this rise of work from home, it teams are really scrambling and said, okay, I have to light up this, say VPN infrastructure, or I need to now be able to support my users in a work from home situation where I don't control the corporate network. In essence, now you have essentially thousands. Every employee is acting across their own corporate network and people were then using thousand eyes in different ways to be able to monitor their safety VPN infrastructure across, uh, back into the corporate network, as well as in using our thousand eyes end point agents that runs on a local, a user's laptop or machine in their home to help you to be able to gain that visibility down to that last mile of connectivity. >>Because when a user calls up support and says, I'm having trouble say accessing my application, whether that's Salesforce or something else, what ultimately might be causing that issue might not necessarily be a Salesforce issue, right? It could be the device and the device performance in terms of CPU, memory utilization. It could be the wifi and the signal quality within your wifi network. It could be your access point. It could be your raw, local home router. It can be your local ISP. It could be the path that you're taking ultimately to your corporate network or that application. There's so many places that could go wrong that are now difficult to be able to see, unless you have the ability to see comprehensively from the user to the application, and to be able to understand that full end to end path, >>You know, it teams have also been disrupted. They've been on offsite prop off property as well, but you got the cloud. How is your technology help the it teams? Can you give some examples there? Um, >>Yeah, great way is, you know, how people use thousand eyes as part of that data sharing ecosystem. Again, that notion of how do you go from visibility to intelligence action and we're in the past, you might be able as an it administrator to walk over to their network team and say, Hey, can you take a look at what I'm seeing now? That's no longer available. So how do you be able to work efficiently as the United organization? You know, we think a thousand eyes in how our customers are using us a thousand times becomes a common operating language that allows them to be able to analyze across from the application down into the underlying infrastructure, through those different layers of the network what's happening. And where do you need to focus your attention? And then furthermore, with 10,000 eyes in terms of a need nibbling, that data sharing ecosystem, leveraging our share link capability really gives them the ability to say, you know, here's what I'm seeing and be able to send that to anybody within the it organization, but it goes even further and many times in recent times, as well as over the course of people using thousand eyes, they take those share links and actually send them to their external providers because they're not just looking to resolve issues within their own it organization. >>They're having to work collaboratively with the different ISP that they're appearing with with their cloud providers that they're appearing, uh, they're leveraging, or the SAS applications that are part of that core dependency of how they deliver their experience. >>I asked you the question when you think about levels of visibility and making the lives easier for it, teams, um, and see a lot of benefits with thousand eyes. You pointed out a few of them. It's got to ask you the question. So if I'm an it person I'm in the trenches, are you guys have, uh, an aspirin or a vitamin or both? Can you give an example because there's a lot of pain point out there. So yeah. Give me a cup, a couple Advils and aspirins, but also you're an enabler to the new things are evolving. You pointed out some use case. You talked about the difference between where you're helping people pain points and also enabling them be successful for it teams. >>Yeah, that's a great analogy. You're thinking it, like you said, it definitely sits on both sides of that spectrum, you know, thousand eyes is the trusted tool, the source of truth for it. Organizations when issues are happening as their alarm bells are ringing, as they are generating the, um, the different, uh, on call, uh, to be able to jump into a worm situation thousand eyes is that trusted source of truth. Allow them to focus, to be able to resolve the issue in the heat of the moment. But that was a nice also when we think about baselining, your experience, what's important is not understanding that experience at that moment in time, but also how that's deviated over time. And so by leveraging thousand eyes on a continuous basis, it gives you the ability to see the history of that experience, to understand how your network is changing is as you mentioned, networks are constantly evolving, right? >>The internet itself is constantly changing. It's an organic system, and you need to be able to understand not only what are the metrics that are moving out of your balance, but then what is potentially the cause of that as a network has evolved. And then furthermore, you can be begin to use that as you mentioned, in terms of your vitamin type of an analogy, to be able to understand the health of your system over time on a baseline basis so that you can begin to be able to ensure its success in a great way to really kind of bring that to light. As people using say, thousand eyes as part of the same SC land-based rollout, where you're looking to seek benchmark and confidence as you look to scale out in either, you know, benchmarking different ISP within that, I feel like connectivity for as you look to ensure a level of success with a single branch to give you that competence, to then scale out to the rest of your organization. >>That's great insights, the classic financial model ROI, you get baseline and upside, right? You got handle the baseline as you pointed out, and the upside music experience connectivity, you know, application performance, which drives revenue, et cetera. So great point. Great insight, Joe. Thank you so much for that insight. It's got a final question for you. I want to just riff a little bit with you on the industry. A lot of us have been having debates about automation. I mean, who doesn't, who doesn't love automation. Automation is awesome, right? Automate things. But as the trend starts going on, as everything is a service or X, a S as it's called, certainly Cisco's going down that road. Talk about your view about the difference between automation and everything is a service because at the end of the day, everything will be a service, but without automation, you really can't have services, right? So, you know, automation, automation, automation, great, great drum to bang all day long, but then also you got the same business side saying as a service, as a service, pushing that into the products means not trivial. Talk about, talk about how you'd look at automation and everything as a service and the relationship and interplay between those two concepts. >>Yeah. Ultimately I think about in terms of what is the problem that the business is trying to solve in ultimately, what is the value that they're trying to face? And in many ways, right, they're being exploded with increase of data that needs, they need to be able to not only processing gather, but then be able to then make use of, and then from that, as we mentioned, once you've processed that data and you'd say, gather the insights from it. You need to be able to then act on that data. And automation plays a key role of allowing you to be able to then put that through your workflow. Because again, as that, it experience becomes even more complex as more and more services get put into that digital supply chain. As you adopt say increased complexity within your infrastructure, by moving to a multicloud architecture where you look to increase the number of say, network services that you're leveraging across that digital experience. >>Ultimately you need the level of automation. You'd be able to see outside of your own vantage point. You need to be able to look at the problem from as broad of a, a broad of a way as possible. And you know, data and automation allows you to be able to do what is fundamentally to do from a very narrow point of view, in terms of the visibility you gather intelligence you generate, and then ultimately, how do you act on that data as quick as possible to be able to provide the value of what you're looking to solve. >>It's like a feature it's under the hood. The feature of everything comes to the surface is automation, data, machine learning, all the goodness in the software. I mean, that's really kind of what we're talking about here. Isn't it a final question for you as we wrap up, uh, dev net create really, again, is going beyond Cisco's dev net community going into the industry ecosystem where developers are there. Um, these are folks that want infrastructure as code. They want network as code. So network programmability, huge topic. We've been having that conversation, uh, with Cisco and others throughout the industry for the past three years. What's your message to developers out there that are watching this who say, Hey, I just want to develop code. Like I want, you know, you guys got that. That was nice. Thanks so much. You know, you take care of that. I just want to write code. What's your message to those folks out there who want to tap some of these new services, these new automation, these new capabilities, what's your message. >>You know, ultimately I think, you know, when you look at thousand eyes, um, you know, from a product perspective, you know, we try to build our product in an API first model to allow you to be able to then shift left of how you think about that overall experience. And from a developer standpoint, you know, what I'd say is, is that while you're developing in your silo, you're going to be part of a larger ultimate system. In your experience you deliver within your application is now going to be dependent upon not only the infrastructure it's running upon, but the network gets connected to, and then ultimately the user and the stance of that user, if I leveraging a thousand eyes and being able to then integrate that into how you think closely on that experience, that's going to help ensure that ultimately the application experience that the is looking to deliver meets that objective. And I think what I would say is, you know, while you need to focus on your, uh, your role as a developer, having the understanding of how you fit into the larger ecosystem and what the reality of the, of how your users will access that application is critical. >>Awesome, Joe, thank you so much. Again, trust is everything letting people understand that what's going on underneath is going to be, you know, viable and capable. You guys got a great product and congratulations on the acquisition that Cisco made of your company. And we've been following you guys for a long time and a great technology chops, great market traction, congratulations to everyone, 1,009. Thanks for coming on today. >>I appreciate it. Thanks for having me >>Vice president of product here with thousand eyes. Now, part of Cisco, John, for your host of the cube cube virtual for dev net, create virtual. Thanks for watching. >>Even prior to the pandemic, there was a mandate to automate the hyperscale cloud companies. They've shown us that to scale. >>You really have to automate your human labor. It just can't keep up with the pace of technology. Now, post COVID that automation mandate is even more pressing. Now what about the marketplace? What are S E seeing on the horizon? The cubes Jeff Frick speaks with Cisco engineers to gather their insights and explore the definite specialized partner program. We've got >>Coon Jacobs. He's the director of systems engineering for Cisco. Good to see Kuhn, >>Thank you for having me >>And joining him as Eric nappy is the VP of system systems engineering for Cisco. Good to see Eric. Good to be here. Thank you. Pleasure. So before we jump into kind of what's going on now in this new great world of programmability and, and control, I want to kind of go back to the future for a minute, because when I was doing some research for this interview, it was Coon. I saw an old presentation that you were giving from 2006 about the changing evolution of the, uh, the changing evolution of networking and moving from. I think the theme was a human centered human centered network. And you were just starting to touch a little bit on video and online video. Oh my goodness, how far we have come, but, but I would love to get kind of a historical perspective because we've been talking a lot and I know Eric son plays football about the football analogy of the network is kind of like an offensive lineman where if they're doing a good job, you don't hear much about them, but they're really important to everything. >>And the only time you hear about them is when a flag gets thrown. So if you look back with the historical perspective, the load and the numbers and the evolution of the network, as we've moved to this modern time, and, you know, thank goodness cause of COVID hit five years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, you know, all of us in the information space would not have been able to make this transition. So I just, I just love to get some historical perspective cause you've been kind of charting this and mapping this for a very long time. >>Yeah, we absolutely have. I think, you know, what you're referring to was back in the day, the human network campaign, and to your point, the load, the number of hosts that traffic, the just overall the intelligence of the network has just evolved tremendously over these last decade and a half, uh, 15 years or so. And you look at where we are now in terms of the programmable nature of the network and what that enables in terms of new degrees of relevance that we can create for the customers. Um, and how, you know, the role of it has changed entirely again, especially during this pandemic, you know, the fact that it's now as a service and elastic, uh, is, is absolutely fundamental to being able to ensure, uh, on an ongoing basis, a great customer experience. And so, uh, it's been, it's been, uh, a very interesting ride. >>Yeah. And then, and then just to close the loop, the, one of your more later interviews talking to Sylvia, your question is, are you a developer or an engineer? So it was, and, and your whole advice to all these network engineers is just, just don't jump in and start doing some coding and learning. So, you know, the focus and really the emphasis and where the opportunity to differentiate as a company is completely shifting gears over to the S you know, really software defined side. >>Oh, absolutely. So, I mean, you look at how the software world and the network has come together and how we're applying now, you know, basically the same construct of CICB pipeline to network, uh, infrastructure, look at network really as code and get all of the benefits from that. And the familiarity of it, the way that our engineers have had to evolve. And that is just, you know, quite, quite significant in, in, in like the skill set. And the best thing is jump in, right. Um, you know, dip your toe in the water, but continue to evolve that skill set. And, uh, you know, don't, don't be shy. It's, it's a leap of faith for some of us who've been in the industry a bit longer. Uh, you know, we like to look at ourselves as the craftsman of the network, but now it's definitely a software centricity and programmability, right? >>So Eric, you've got some digital exhaust out there too, that I was able to dig up going back to 2002 752 page book, and the very back corner of a dark dirty dusty Amazon warehouse is managing Cisco network security, 752 pages. Wow. How has security changed from a time where before I could just read a book, a big book and, you know, throw some protocols in and probably block a bunch of ports to the world that we live in today, where everything is connected. Everything is API driven, everything is software defined. You've got pieces of workloads spread out all over the place and Oh, by the way, you need to bake security in at every single level of the application stack. >>Yeah, no I'm so, wow. Cocoon is that you, you found that book on the I'm really impressed. There was a thank you a little street, correct. So, uh, I want to hit on something that you, you talked about. Cause I think it's very important to, to this overall conversation. If we think about the scale of the network and Coon hit on it briefly, you talked about it as well. We're seeing a massive explosion of devices by the I, you know, it's estimated by the end of this year, there's going to be about 27 billion devices on the global internet. That's about 3.7 devices for every man, woman and child life. And if we extrapolate that out over the course of the next decade on the growth trajectory we're on. And if you look at some of the published research on this, it's estimated there could be upwards of 500 billion devices accessing the global internet on a, on a daily basis. >>And primarily that, that, that is a IOT devices. That's digitally connected devices. Anything that can be connected will be connected, but then introduces a really interesting security challenge because every one of those devices that is accessing the global internet is within a company's infrastructure or accessing pieces of corporate data is a potential attack factor. So we really need to, and I think the right for this is we need to reimagine security because security is, as you said, not about perimeters. You know, I wrote that book back in 2002, I was talking about firewalls and a cutting edge technology was intrusion prevention and intrusion detection. Now we need to look at security really in the, in the guise of, or under the, under the, under the realm of really two aspects, the identity who is accessing the data in the context, what data is being accessed. >>And that is going to require a level of intelligence, a level of automation and the technologies like machine learning and automated intelligence are going to be our artificial intelligence rather are going to be table stakes because the sheer scale of what we're trying to secure is going to be untenable, undercurrent, you know, just current security practices. I mean, the network is going to have to be incredibly intelligent and leverage again, a lot of that, uh, that AI type of data to match patterns of potential attacks and ideally shut them down before they ever cause any type of damage. >>Really interesting. I mean, one thing that COVID has done a bunk many things is kind of retaught us all about the power of exponential curves and how extremely large those things are and how fast they grow. We had Dave runs and on a Google cloud a couple of years ago. And I remember him talking about early days of Google when they were starting to map out kind of, as you described kind of map out their growth curves, and they just figured out they could not hire if they hired everybody, they couldn't hire enough people to deal with it. Right. So really kind of rethinking automation and rethinking about the way that you manage these things and the level, right. The old, is it a pet or is it, or is it, um, uh, part of a herd? And I think it's interesting what you talked about, uh, can really the human powered internet and being driven by a lot of this video, but to what you just said, Eric, the next big wave, right. >>Is IOT and five G. And I think, you know, you talk about 3.7 million devices per person. That's nothing compared to right. All these sensors and all these devices and all these factories, cause five G is really targeted to machine the machines, which there's a lot of them and they trade a lot of information really, really quickly. So, you know, I want to go back to you Coon thinking about this next great wave in a five G IOT kind of driven world where it's kind of like when voice kind of fell off compared to IP traffic on the network. I think you're going to see the same thing, kind of human generated data relative to machine generated data is also going to fall off dramatically as a machine generated data, just skyrocket through the roof. >>Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think too, also what Eric touched on the visibility on that, and they'd be able to process that data at the edge. That's going to catalyze cloud adoption even further, and it's going to know, make the role of the network, the connectivity of it all and the security within that crucially important. And then you look at the role of programmability within that. We're seeing the evolution going so fast. You look at the element of the software defined network in an IOT speed space. We see that we have hosts there that are not necessarily, um, you know, behaving like other hosts would, uh, on a network, for example, manufacturing floor, uh, production robot, or a security camera. And what we're seeing is we're seeing partners and customers employing program ability to make sure that we overcome some of the shortcomings, uh, in terms of where the network is at, but then how do you customize it in terms of the relevance that it can provide, uh, bringing on board, uh, those, uh, those hosts in a very transparent way, and then, you know, keep, keep the agility of it and keep the speed of innovation going. >>Right. >>Right. So Eric, I want to come back to you and shift gears kind of back to the people will leave the IOT and the machines along, along for a minute, but I'm curious about what does beat the boss. I mean, I go to your LinkedIn profile and it's just filled with congratulatory statements, but everyone's talking about beating the boss. You know, it's, it's a really, you know, kind of interesting and different way to, to motivate people, to build this new skillset in terms of getting software certifications, uh, within the Cisco world. And I just thought it was really cute the way that you clearly got people motivated, cause there's posts all over the place and they've all got their, their nice big badge or their certification, but, you know, at a higher level, it is a different motivation to be a developer versus an engineer and a technician. And it's kind of a different point of view. And I just wonder if you could share, you know, some of the ways that you're, you're kind of encouraging, you know, kind of this transformation within your own workforce, as well as the partners, et cetera, and really adopting kind of almost a software first and this program kind of point of view versus, you know, I'm just wiring stuff up. >>Apparently a lot of people like to beat me. So of itself was a, was a, it was a great success, but you know, if we think we take a step back, you know, what is Cisco about as an organization? Um, I mean obviously if you look back to the very early days of our vision, right, it was, it was to change the way the world worked, played, live and learn. And that you think about, and you hit on this when we were, you know, you were discussion with co with Kuhn in the early days of COVID. We really saw that play out as so much shifted from, you know, in-person type of interactions to virtual interactions in the network that, uh, that our, our customers, our partners, our employees built over the course of the last several, the last three decades really helped the world continue to, um, to, to do business for students to continue to go to school or clinicians, to connect with patients. >>If I think about that mission to meet programmability is just the next iteration of that mission, continuing to enable the world to communicate, continuing, to enable customers, employees, uh, partners, uh, to essentially leverage the network for more than just connectivity now to leverage it for critical insight. Again, if we look at some of the, uh, some of the use cases that we're seeing for social distancing and contact tracing and network has a really important place to play there because we can pull insight from it, but it isn't necessarily an out of the box type of integration. So I look at programmability and in what we're doing with, with dev net to give relevance to the network for those types of really critical conversations that every organization is having right now, it's a way to extrapolate. It's a way to pull critical data so that I can make a decision. >>And if that decision is automated, or if that decision requires some type of a manual intervention, regardless, we're still about connecting. And in this case, we're connecting insight with the people who need it most, right. The debit challenge we ran is really in respect for how critical this new skill set is going to be. It's not enough. Like I said, just to connect the world anymore. We need to leverage that network, the network for that critical insight. And when we drove, we were, we created the beat, the boss challenge. It was really simple. Hey guys, I think this is important and I am going to go out and I'm going to achieve the certification myself, because I want to continue to be very relevant. I want to continue to be able to provide that insight for my customers and partners. So therefore I'm going for it. Anybody that can get there before me, maybe there's a little incentive tied to the incentive. Although it's funny, we interviewed a lot of, a lot of our team who, uh, who achieved it when incentive was secondary. They just wanted to have the bragging rights, like, yeah, I beat Eric, right. >>You know, putting your money where your mouth is, right. If it's important, then why, you know, you should do it too. And, and you know, the whole, you're not asking people to do what you wouldn't do yourself. So I think there's a lot of good leadership, uh, leadership lessons there as well. But I want to extend kind of the conversation on the covert impact, right? Cause I'm sure you've seen all the social media meme, you know, who's driving your digital transformation, the CEO, the CMO or COVID. And we all know the answer to the question, but you know, you guys have already been dealing with kind of an increased complexity around enterprise infrastructure world in terms of cloud and public cloud and hybrid cloud and multi cloud. And people are trying to move stuff all, all the way around now suddenly had this COVID moment right in, in March, which is really a light switch moment. >>People didn't have time to plan or prepare for suddenly everybody working from home. And it's not only you, but your spouse and your kids and everybody else. So, but now we're six months plus into this thing. And I would just love to get your perspective and kind of the change from, Oh my goodness, we have to react to the light switch moment. What do we do to make sure people can, can get, get what they need when they need it from where they are. Uh, but, but then really moving from this is a, an emergency situation, a stop gap situation to, Hmm, this is going to extend for some period of time. And even when it's the acute crisis is over, you know, this is going to drive a real change in the way that people communicate in the way that people, where they sit and their jobs and, and kind of how customers are responding accordingly as the, you know, kind of the narrative has changed from an emergency stop gap to this is the new normal that we really need to plan for. >>So, uh, I think, I think you said it very well. I think anything that could be digitized, any, any interaction that could be driven virtually was, and what's interesting is we, as you said, we went from that light switch moment where I believe the stat is this, and I'll probably get the number wrong, but like in the United States here at the beginning, at the end of February, about 2% of the knowledge worker population was virtual, you know, working from home or in a remote work environment. And over the course of about 11 days, that number went from 2% to 70%. Wow. Interesting that it worked, you know, there was a lot of hiccups along the way, and there was a lot of organizations making really quick decisions on how do I enable VPN scale of mass? How do I, you know, leverage, uh, you know, things like WebEx for virtual meetings and virtual connectivity, uh, much faster now that as you said, that we kinda gotten out of the fog of war or frog fog of battle organizations are looking at what they accomplished. >>And it was nothing short of Herculean and looking at this now from a transition to, Oh my gosh, we need to change too. We have an opportunity to change. And we're looking, we see a lot of organizations specifically around, uh, financial services, healthcare, uh, the, uh, the K through 20, uh, educational environment, all looking at how can they do more virtually for a couple of reasons. Obviously there is a significant safety factor. And again, we're still in that we're still on the height of this pandemic. They want to make sure their employees, their customers, students, patients remain safe. But second, um, we've found in, in discussions with a lot of senior it executives that are customers that people are happier working from home. People are more productive working from home. And that, again, the network that's been built over the course of the last few decades has been resilient enough to allow that to happen. >>And then third, there is a potential cost savings here outside of people. The next most expensive resource that organizations are paying for is real estate. If they can shrink that real estate footprint while providing a better user experience at the locations that they're maintaining, again, leveraging things like location services, leveraging things like a unified collaboration. That's very personalized to the end user's experience. They're going to do that. And again, they're going to save money. They're going to have happier employees and ultimately they're going to make their, uh, their employees and their customers a lot safer. So we see, we believe that there is in some parts of the economy, a shift that is going to be more permanent in some estimates, put it as high as 15% of the current workforce is going to >>Stay in a virtual or a semi virtual working environment for the foreseeable future. >>Interesting. And I, and I, and I would say, I'd say 15% is low, especially if you, if you qualify it with, you know, part-time right. I, there was a great interview we were doing and talking about working from home, we used to work from home as the exception, right? Cause the cable person was coming, are you getting a new washing machine or something where now that's probably getting, you know, in many cases we'll shift to the other where I'm generally going to work from home, unless, you know, somebody is in town or having an important meeting or there's some special collaboration, uh, that drives me to be in. But you know, I want to go back to you Kuhn and, and really doubled down on, you know, I think most people spent too much time focusing, especially, we'll just say within the virtual events space where we play on the things you can't do virtually, we can't meet in the hall. >>We can't grab a quick coffee and a drink instead of focusing on the positive things like we're accomplishing right here, you're in Belgium, right. Eric is in Ohio, we're in California. Um, and you know, we didn't take three days to travel and, and check into a hotel and, and all that stuff to get together, uh, for this period of time. So there's a lot of stuff that digital enables. And I think, you know, people need to focus more on that versus continuing to focus on the two or three things that, that it doesn't replace and it doesn't replace those. So let's just get that off the table and move on with our lives. Cause those aren't coming back anytime soon. >>No, totally. I think it's the balance of those things. It's guarding the fact that you're not necessarily working for home. I think the trick there is you could be sleeping at the office, but I think the positives are way, way more outspoken. Um, I, you know, I look at myself, I got much more exercise time in these last couple of months than I usually do because you don't travel. You don't have the jet lag and the connection. And then you talked about those face to face moments. I think a lot of people are in a way, um, wanting to go back to the office part-time as, as Eric also explain, but a lot of it you can do virtually we have virtual coffees with team, or, you know, even here in Belgium, our local general manager has a virtual effort, TIF every Friday, obviously skip the one this week. But, uh, you know, there's, there's ways to be very creative with the technology and the quality of the technology that enables, um, you know, to, to get the best of both worlds. Right? >>So I just, we're going to wrap the segment. I want to give you guys both the last word you both been at Cisco for a while and, you know, Susie, we, and the team on dev net has really grown this thing. I think we were there at the very beginning couple of four or five, six years ago. I can't keep track of time anymore, but it has really, really grown. And, you know, the timing is terrific to get into this more software defined world, which is where we are. I wonder if you could just, you know, kind of share a couple of thoughts as you know, with a little bit of perspective and you know, what you're excited about today and kind of what you see coming down the road since you guys have been there for a while you've been in this space, uh, let's start with Yukon. >>I think the possibility it creates, I think really programmability software defined is really >>About the art of the possible it's what you can dream up and then go code. Um, Eric talked about the relevance of it and how it maximizes the relevance on a customer basis. Um, you know, and then it is the evolution of the teams in terms of the creativity that they can bring to us. We've seen really people dive into that and customers co-creating with us. And I think that's where we're going in terms of the evolution of the value proposition there in terms of what technology can provide, but also how it impacts people as we discussed and redefines process >>That the art of the possible, which is a lot harder to execute in a, in hardware than software certainly takes a lot longer. I'd love to get your, uh, your thoughts. >>Absolutely. So I started my career at Cisco, uh, turning, uh, putting IP phones onto the network. And back then, you know, it was, you know, 2001, 2002, when, uh, the idea of putting telephones onto the network was such a, um, just such an objectionable idea. And so many purists were telling us all the reasons it wouldn't work. Now, if we go forward again, 19 years, the idea of not having them plugging into the network is a ridiculous idea. So we have a, we're looking at an inflection point in this industry and it's really, it's not about programming. It's not necessarily about programming. It's about doing it smarter. It's about being more efficient. It's about driving automation, but again, it's, it's about unlocking the value of what the network is. We've moved so far past. What can, you know, just connectivity, the network touches everything and there's more workload moves to the cloud is more workload moves to things like containers. >>Um, the network is the really, the only common element that ties all of these things together. The network needs to take its rightful place in the end, the it lexicon as being that critical or that critical insight provider, um, for, for how users are interacting with the network, how users are interacting with applications, how applications are interacting with one, another program ability is a way to do that more efficiently, uh, with greater a greater degree of certainty with much greater relevance into the overall delivery of it services and digitization. So to me, I think we're going to look back 20 years from now, probably even 10 and say, man, we used to configure things manually. What was that like? I think, I think really this is, this is the future. And I think we want to be aligned with where we're going versus where we've been. Right. >>Well, Coon, Eric, thank you for sharing your perspective. You know, it's, it's really nice to have, you know, some historical reference, uh, and it's also nice to be living in a new age where you can, you can, you know, stay at the same company and still refresh, you know, new challenges, new opportunities and grow this thing. Cause as you said, I remember those IP first IP phone days and I thought, well, my bell must be happy because the old mother's problem is finally solved. And when we don't have to have a dedicated connection between every mother and every child in the middle of may. So good news. So thank you very much for sharing your, uh, your insights and really, uh, really enjoyed the conversation. >>Thank you. >>We've been covering dev net create for a number of years. I think since the very first show and Susie, we and the team really built, uh, a practice built a company, built a lot of momentum around software in the Cisco ecosystem and in getting devs really to start to build applications and drive kind of the whole software defined networking thing forward. And a big part of that is partners and working with partners and, and developing solutions and, you know, using brain power. That's outside of the four walls of Cisco. So we're excited to have, uh, our next guest, uh, partner for someone is Brad Hoss. He is the engineering director for dev ops at Presidio, Brad. Great to see you. >>Hey Jeff, great to be here. >>And joining him is Chuck Stickney. Chuck is the business development architect for Cisco DevNet partners and he has been driving a whole lot of partner activity for a very long period of time. Chuck, great to see you. >>Thanks Jeff. Great to be here and looking forward to this conversation. >>So let's, let's start with you Chuck, because I think, um, you know, you're leading this kind of partner effort and, and you know, software defined, networking has been talked about for a long time and you know, it's really seems to be maturing and, and software defined everything right. Has been taking over, especially with, with virtualization and moving the flexibility and the customer program ability customability in software and Mo and taking some of that off the hardware. Talk about, you know, the programs that you guys are putting together and how important it is to have partners to kind of move this whole thing forward, versus just worrying about people that have Cisco badges. >>Yeah, Jeff, absolutely. So along this whole journey of dev net where we're, we're trying to leverage that customization and innovation built on top of our Cisco platforms, most of Cisco's business is transacted through partners. And what we hear from our customers and our partners is they want to, our customers want a way to be able to identify, does this partner have the capabilities and the skills necessary to help me go down this automation journey I'm trying to do, do a new implementation. I want to automate that. How can I find a partner to, to get there? And then we have some of our partners that have been building these practices going along this step, in that journey with us for the last six years, they really want to say, Hey, how can I differentiate myself against my competitors and give an edge to my customers to show them that, yes, I have these capabilities. I've built a business practice. I have technology, I have technologists that really understand this capability and they have the dub net certifications to prove it helped me be able to differentiate myself throughout our ecosystem. So that's really what our Danette partner specialization is all about. Right. >>That's great. And Brad, you're certainly one of those partners and I want to get your perspective because partners are oftentimes a little bit closer to the customer cause you've got your kind of own set of customers that you're building solutions and just reflect on, we know what happened, uh, back in March 15th, when basically everybody was told to go home and you can't go to work. So, you know, there's all the memes and social media about who, you know, who pushed forward your digital transformation, the CEO, the CMO, or COVID. And we all know what the answer is, whatever you can share some information as to what happened then, and really for your business and your customers, and then reflect now we're six months into it, six months plus, and, and you know, this new normal is going to continue for a while. How's the customer attitudes kind of changed now that they're kind of buckled down past the light switch moment and really we need to put in place some foundation to carry forward for a very long time potentially. >>Yeah, it's really quite interesting actually, you know, when code first hit, we got a lot of requests to help with automation of provisioning our customers and in the whole, you know, digital transformation got really put on hold for a little bit there and I'd say it became more of, of the workplace transformation. So we were quickly, uh, you know, migrating customers to, you know, new typologies where instead of the, the, you know, users sitting in those offices, they were sitting at home and we had to get them connected rapidly in a, we, we didn't have a lot of success there in those beginning months with, you know, using automation and programmability, um, building, you know, provisioning portals for our customers to get up and running really fast. Um, and that, that, that was what it looked like in those early days. And then over time, I'd say that the asks from our customers has started to transition a little bit. >>You know, now they're asking, you know, how can I take advantage of the technology to, you know, look at my offices in a different way, you know, for example, you know, how many people are coming in and out of those locations, you know, what's the usage of my conference rooms. Um, are there, uh, are there, um, situations where I can use that information? Like how many people are in the building and at a certain point in time and make real estate decisions on that, you know, like, do I even need this office anymore? So, so the conversations have really changed in, in ways that you couldn't have imagined before March. >>Right. And I wonder with, with you Chuck, in terms of the Cisco point of view, I mean, the network is amazing. It had had, COVID struck five years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, you know, clearly there's a lot of industries that are suffering badly entertainment, um, restaurant, business, transportation, they, you know, hospitality, but for those of us in kind of the information industry, the switch was pretty easy. Um, you know, and, and the network enables the whole thing. And so I wonder if, you know, kind of from your perspective as, as suddenly, you know, the importance of the network, the importance of security and the ability now to move to this new normal very quickly from a networking perspective. And then on top of that, having, you know, dev net with, with the software defined on top, you guys were pretty much in a good space as good as space as you could be given this new challenge thrown at you. >>Yeah, Jeff, we completely agree with that. Uh, Cisco has always pushed the idea that the network is transformational. The network is the foundation, and as our customers have really adopted that message, it is enabled that idea for the knowledge workers to be able to continue on. So for myself, I've, I've worked for home the entire time I've been at Cisco. So the last 13 years, this is, you know, the, the change to the normalcy is I never get on a plane anymore, but my day to day functions are still the same. And it's built because of the capabilities we have with the network. I think the transition that we've seen in the industry, as far as kind of moving to that application type of economy, as we go to microservices, as we go to a higher dependency upon cloud, those things have really enabled the world really to be able to better respond to this, to this COVID situation. And I think it's helped to, to justify the investments that's that our customers have made as well as what our partners have been, being able to do to deliver on that multicloud capability, to take those applications, get them closer to the end user instead of sitting in a common data center and then making it more applicable to, to users wherever they may be, not just inside of that traditional four walls. >>Right, right. That's interesting. And Brad, you, you made a comment on another interview. I was watching getting ready for this one in terms of, uh, applications now being first class citizens was, was what you said. And it's kind of interesting coming from an infrastructure point of view, where before it was, you know, what do I have and what can I build on it now, I really it's the infrastructure that responds back to the application. And even though you guys are both in the business of, of networking and infrastructure, it's still this recognition that apps first is the way to go, because that gives people the competitive advantage that it gives them the ability to react in the marketplace and to innovate and move faster. So, you know, it's, it's a really interesting twist to be able to support an application first, by having a software defined in a more programmable infrastructure stack. >>Yeah, no doubt. And, you know, I think that the whole push to cloud was really interesting in the early days, it was like, Hey, we're going to change our applications to be cloud first. You know? And then I think the terminology changed over time, um, to more cloud native. So when we, when we look at what cloud has done over the past five years with customers moving, you know, their, their assets into the cloud in the early days that we were all looking at it just >>Like another data center, but what it's really become is a place to host your applications. So when we talk about cloud migrations with our customers now, we're, we're no longer talking about, you know, the assets per se, we're talking about the applications and what, what did those applications look like? And even what defines an application right now, especially with the whole move to cloud native and microservices in the automation that helps make that all happen with infrastructure as code. You're now able to bundle the infrastructure with those applications together as a single unit. So when you define that application, as infrastructure, as code the application in the definition of what those software assets for the infrastructure are, all are wrapped together and you've got change control, version control, um, and it's all automated, you know, it's, it's a beautiful thing. And I think it's something that we've all kind of hoped would happen. >>You know, when I look back at the early definitions of software defined networking, I think everybody was trying to figure it out and they didn't really fully understand what that meant now that we can actually define what that network infrastructure could look like as it's, as it's wrapped around that application in a code template, maybe that's Terraform or Ansible, whatever that might be, whatever method or tool that you're using to, to bring it all together. It's, it's, you know, it's really interesting now, I think, I think we've gotten to the point where it's starting to make a lot more sense than, you know, those early days of SDN, uh we're out, you know, it was a, was it a controller or is it a new version of SNMP? You know, now it makes sense. It's actually something tangible. Right, >>Right. But still check, as you said, right. There's still a lot of API APIs and there's still a lot of component pieces to these applications that are all run off the network that all have to fit, uh, that had to fit together. You know, we cover PagerDuty summit and you know, their whole thing is trying to find out where the, where the problems are within the very few microseconds that you have before the customer abandons their shopping cart or whatever the particular application. So again, the network infrastructure and the program ability super important. But I wonder if you could speak to the automation because there's just too much stuff going on for individual people to keep track of, and they shouldn't be keeping track of it because they need to be focusing on the important stuff, not this increasing amount of bandwidth and traffic going through the network. >>Yeah, absolutely. Jeff said the bandwidth that's necessary in order to support everybody working from home to support this video conference. I mean, we, we used to do this sitting face to face. Now we're doing this over the internet. The amount of people necessary to, to be able to facilitate that type of traffic. If we're doing it the way we did 10 years ago, we would not >>Scale it's automation. That makes that possible. That allows us to look higher up the ability to do that automatic provisional provisioning. Now that we're in microservices now that everything is cloud native, we have the ability to, to better, to better adjust to and adapt to changes that happen with the infrastructure below hand. So if something goes wrong, we can very quickly spend something up to take that load off where traditionally it was open up a ticket. Let me get someone in there, let me fix it. Now it's instantaneously identify the solution, go to my playbook, figure out exactly what solution I need to deploy and put that out there. And the network engineering team, the infrastructure engineering team, they just simply need to get notified that this happened. And as long as there's traceability and a point that Brad made, as far as you being able to go through here doing the automation of the documentation side of it. >>I know when I was a network engineer, one of the last things we ever did was documentation. But now that we have the API is from the infrastructure. And then the ability to tie that into other systems like an IP address management or a change control, or a trouble ticketing system, that whole idea of I made an infrastructure change. And now I can automatically do that documentation update and record. I know who did it. I know when they did it and I know what they did, and I know what the test results were even five years ago, that was fantasy land. Now, today that's just the new normal, that's just how we all operate. >>Right. Right, right. So I want to get your take on the other trend, which is cloud multicloud, public cloud. You know, as, as I think you said Brad, when public cloud first came out, there was kind of this, this rush into, we're going to throw everything in there then for, for, for different reasons. People decided maybe that's not the best, the best solution, but really it's horses for courses. Right. And, and I think it was pretty interesting that, that you guys are all supporting the customers that are trying to figure out where they're going to put their workloads. And Oh, by the way, that might not be a static place, right. It might be moving around based on, you know, maybe I do my initial dev and, and, and Amazon. And then when I go into production, maybe I want to move it into my data center. >>And then maybe I'm having a big promotion or something I want to flex capability. So from, from your perspective and helping customers work through this, because still there's a lot of opinions about what is multicloud, what is hybrid cloud and, you know, it's horses for courses. How are you helping people navigate that? And what does having programmable infrastructure enable you to do for helping customers kind of sort through, you know, everybody talks about their journey. I think there's still kind of bumbling down, bumbling down paths, trying to find new things, what works, what doesn't work. And I think it's still really early days and trying to mesh all this stuff together. Yeah, >>Yeah. No doubt. It is still early days. And you know, I, I, I go back to it being application centric because, you know, being able to understand that application, when you move to the cloud, it may not look like, what did he still look like when you, when you move it over there, you may be breaking parts off of it. Some of them might be running on a platform as a service while other pieces of it are running as infrastructure as a service. >>And some of it might still be in your data center. Those applications are becoming much more complex than they used to be because we're breaking them apart into different services. Those services could live all over the place. So with automation, we really gain the power of being able to combine those things. As I mentioned earlier, those resources, wherever they are, can be defined in that infrastructure as code and automation. But you know, the side from provisioning, I think we focus a lot about provisioning. When we talk about automation, we also have these amazing capabilities on, on the side of operations too. Like we've got streaming telemetry in the ability to, to gain insights into what's going on in ways that we didn't have before, or at least in the, in, you know, in the early days of monitoring software, right. You knew exactly what that device was, where it was. >>It probably had a friendly name, like maybe it was, uh, something from the Hobbit right now. You've got things coming up and spinning and spinning up and spinning down, moving all over the place. And that thing you used to know what that was. Now, you have to quickly figure out where it went. So the observability factor is a huge thing that I think everybody should be paying attention to attention, to moving forward with regards to when you're moving things to the cloud or even to other data centers or, you know, in your premise, um, breaking that into microservices, you really need to understand what's going on in the, you know, programmability and API APIs and, you know, yang models are tied into streaming telemetry. Now there's just so many great things coming out of this, you know, and it's all like a data structure that, that people who are going down this path and the dev net path, they're learning these data structures and being able to rationalize and make sense of them. And once you understand that, then all of these things come together, whether it's cloud or a router or switch, um, Amazon, you know, it doesn't matter. You're, you're all speaking a common language, which is that data structure. >>That's great. Chuck, I want to shift gears a little bit, cause there was something that you said in another interview when I was getting ready for this one about, about Deb, not really opening up a whole different class of partners for Cisco, um, as, as really more of a software, a software lead versus kind of the traditional networking lead. I wonder if you can put a little more color on that. Um, because clearly as you said, partners are super important. It's your primary go to market and, and Presidios, I'm sure the best partner that you have in the whole world that's and you know, you said there's some, there's some non traditional people that would not ever be a Cisco partner that suddenly you guys are playing with because of really software lead. >>Yeah. Jeff that's exactly right. So as we've been talking to folks with dev nets and whether it'd be at one of the Cisco live events in the dev net zone or at the prior dev net create events, we'll have, we'll have people come up to us who Cisco today views us as a customer because they're not in our partner ecosystem. They want to be able to deliver these capabilities to our customers, but they have no interest in being in the resell market. This what we're doing with the dev that specialization gives us the ability to bring those partners into the ecosystem, share them with our extremely large dev net community so they can get access to those, to those potential customers. But also it allows us to do partner to partner type of integration. So Brad and Presidio, they built a fantastic networking. They always have the fantastic networking business, but they built this fantastic automation business that's there, but they may come into, into a scenario where it's working with their vertical and working with the technology piece, that they may not have an automation practice for. >>We can leverage some of these software specific partners to come in there and do a joint, go to markets where, so they can go where that traditional channel partner can leverage their deep Cisco knowledge in those customer relationships that they have and bring in that software partner almost as a subcontractor to help them deliver that additional business value on top of that traditional stack, that brings us to this business outcomes. If the customers are looking for and a much faster fashion and a much more collaborative fashion, that's terrific. Well, again, it's a, it's, it's unfortunate that we can't be in person. I mean, the, the Cisco dev net shows, you know, they're still small, they're still intimate. There's still a lot of, uh, information sharing and, you know, great to see you. And like I said, we've been at the computer museum, I think the last couple of years and in, in San Francisco. So I look forward to a time that we can actually be together, uh, maybe, maybe for next year's event, but, uh, thank you very much for stopping by and sharing the information. Really appreciate it. It happens happy to be here >>From around the globe. It's the cube presenting, accelerating automation with dev net brought to you by Cisco. What I'm Sean for the cube, your host for accelerating automation with dev net with Cisco. And we're here to close out the virtual event with Mindy Whaley, senior director, Mandy, take it away. >>Thank you, John. It's been great to be here at this virtual event, hearing all these different automation stories from our different technology groups, from customers and partners. And what I'd like to take a minute now is to let people know how they can continue this experience at dev net create, which is our free virtual event happening globally. On October 13th, there's going to be some really fun stuff. We're going to have our annual demo jam, which is kind of like an open for demos where the community gets to show what they've been building. We're also going to be, um, giving out and recognizing our dev net creator award winners for this year, which is a really great time where we recognize our community contributors who have been giving back to the community throughout the year. And then we find really interesting channels. We have our creators channels, which is full of technical talks, lightening talks. >>This is where our community, external Cisco people come in share what they've been working on, what they've been working learning during the year. We also have a channel called API action, which is where you can go deep into IOT or collaboration or data center automation and get demos talks from engineers on how to do certain use cases. And also a new segment called straight from engineering, where you get to hear from the engineers, building those products as well. And we have a start now for those people just getting started, who may need to dive into some basics around coding, API APIs and get that's a whole channel dedicated to getting them started so that they can start to participate in some of the fun challenges that we're going to have during the event. And we're going to have a few fun things. Like we have some definite, um, advocate team members who are awesome, musically talented. They're going to share some performances with us. So, um, we encourage everyone to join us there. Pick your favorite channel, uh, join us in whichever time zone you live in. Cause we'll be in three different time zones. And, um, we would love for you to be there and to hear from you during the event. >>That's awesome. Very innovative, multiple time zones, accelerating automation with dev net. Thank you so much for watching and we'll see you at dev net create thanks for watching.

>> (upbeat music) [Narrator] From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of AnsibleFest 2020, brought to you by Red Hat. >> Hello welcome back to theCUBE virtual coverage of AnsibleFest 2020 Virtual. We're not face to face this year. I'm John Furrier, your host. We're bringing it together remotely. We're in the Palo Alto Studios with theCUBE and we're going remote for our guests this year. And I hope you can come together online enjoy the content. Of course, go check out the events site on Demand Live. And certainly I have a lot of great content. I've got a great guest Skyla Loomis Vice president, for the Z Application Platform at IBM. Also known as IBM Z talking Mainframe. Skyla, thanks for coming on theCUBE Appreciate it. >> Thank you for having me. So, you know, I've talked many conversations about the Mainframe of being relevant and valuable in context to cloud and cloud native because if it's got a workload you've got containers and all this good stuff, you can still run anything on anything these days. By integrating it in with all this great glue layer, lack of a better word or oversimplifying it, you know, things going on. So it's really kind of cool. Plus Walter Bentley in my previous interview was talking about the success of Ansible, and IBM working together on a really killer implementation. So I want to get into that, but before that let's get into IBM Z. How did you start working with IBM Z? What's your role there? >> Yeah, so I actually just got started with Z about four years ago. I spent most of my career actually on the distributed platform, largely with data and analytics, the analytics area databases and both On-premise and Public Cloud. But I always considered myself a friend to Z. So in many of the areas that I'd worked on, we'd, I had offerings where we'd enabled it to work with COS or Linux on Z. And then I had this opportunity come up where I was able to take on the role of leading some of our really core runtimes and databases on the Z platform, IMS and z/TPF. And then recently just expanded my scope to take on CICS and a number of our other offerings related to those kind of in this whole application platform space. And I was really excited because just of how important these runtimes and this platform is to the world,really. You know, our power is two thirds of our fortune 100 clients across banking and insurance. And it's you know, some of the most powerful transaction platforms in the world. You know doing hundreds of billions of transactions a day. And you know, just something that's really exciting to be a part of and everything that it does for us. >> It's funny how distributed systems and distributed computing really enable more longevity of everything. And now with cloud, you've got new capabilities. So it's super excited. We're seeing that a big theme at AnsibleFest this idea of connecting, making things easier you know, talk about distributed computing. The cloud is one big distribute computer. So everything's kind of playing together. You have a panel discussion at AnsibleFest Virtual. Could you talk about what your topic is and share, what was some of the content in there? Content being, content as in your presentation? Not content. (laughs) >> Absolutely. Yeah, so I had the opportunity to co-host a panel with a couple of our clients. So we had Phil Allison from Black Knight and Pat Lane from Allstate and they were really joining us and talking about their experience now starting to use Ansible to manage to z/OS. So we just actually launched some content collections and helping to enable and accelerate, client's use of using Ansible to manage to z/OS back in March of this year. And we've just seen tremendous client uptake in this. And these are a couple of clients who've been working with us and, you know, getting started on the journey of now using Ansible with Z they're both you know, have it in the enterprise already working with Ansible on other platforms. And, you know, we got to talk with them about how they're bringing it into Z. What use cases they're looking at, the type of culture change, that it drives for their teams as they embark on this journey and you know where they see it going for them in the future. >> You know, this is one of the hot items this year. I know that events virtual so has a lot of content flowing around and sessions, but collections is the top story. A lot of people talking collections, collections collections, you know, integration and partnering. It hits so many things but specifically, I like this use case because you're talking about real business value. And I want to ask you specifically when you were in that use case with Ansible and Z. People are excited, it seems like it's working well. Can you talk about what problems that it solves? I mean, what was some of the drivers behind it? What were some of the results? Could you give some insight into, you know, was it a pain point? Was it an enabler? Can you just share why that was getting people are getting excited about this? >> Yeah well, certainly automation on Z, is not new, you know there's decades worth of, of automation on the platform but it's all often proprietary, you know, or bundled up like individual teams or individual people on teams have specific assets, right. That they've built and it's not shared. And it's certainly not consistent with the rest of the enterprise. And, you know, more and more, you're kind of talking about hybrid cloud. You know, we're seeing that, you know an application is not isolated to a single platform anymore right. It really expands. And so being able to leverage this common open platform to be able to manage Z in the same way that you manage the entire rest of your enterprise, whether that's Linux or Windows or network or storage or anything right. You know you can now actually bring this all together into a common automation plane in control plane to be able to manage to all of this. It's also really great from a skills perspective. So, it enables us to really be able to leverage. You know Python on the platform and that's whole ecosystem of Ansible skills that are out there and be able to now use that to work with Z. >> So it's essentially a modern abstraction layer of agility and people to work on it. (laughs) >> Yeah >> You know it's not the joke, Hey, where's that COBOL programmer. I mean, this is a serious skill gap issues though. This is what we're talking about here. You don't have to replace the, kill the old to bring in the new, this is an example of integration where it's classic abstraction layer and evolution. Is that, am I getting that right? >> Absolutely. I mean I think that Ansible's power as an orchestrator is part of why, you know, it's been so successful here because it's not trying to rip and replace and tell you that you have to rewrite anything that you already have. You know, it is that glue sort of like you used that term earlier right? It's that glue that can span you know, whether you've got rec whether you've got ACL, whether you're using z/OSMF you know, or any other kind of custom automation on the platform, you know, it works with everything and it can start to provide that transparency into it as well, and move to that, like infrastructure as code type of culture. So you can bring it into source control. You can have visibility to it as part of the Ansible automation platform and tower and those capabilities. And so you, it really becomes a part of the whole enterprise and enables you to codify a lot of that knowledge. That, you know, exists again in pockets or in individuals and make it much more accessible to anybody new who's coming to the platform. >> That's a great point, great insight.& It's worth calling out. I'm going to make a note of that and make a highlight from that insight. That was awesome. I got to ask about this notion of client uptake. You know, when you have z/OS and Ansible kind of come in together, what are the clients area? When do they get excited? When do they know that they've got to do? And what are some of the client reactions? Are they're like, wake up one day and say, "Hey, yeah I actually put Ansible and z/OS together". You know peanut butter and chocolate is (mumbles) >> Honestly >> You know, it was just one of those things where it's not obvious, right? Or is it? >> Actually I have been surprised myself at how like resoundingly positive and immediate the reactions have been, you know we have something, one of our general managers runs a general managers advisory council and at some of our top clients on the platform and you know we meet with them regularly to talk about, you know, the future direction that we're going. And we first brought this idea of Ansible managing to Z there. And literally unanimously everybody was like yes, give it to us now. (laughs) It was pretty incredible, you know? And so it's you know, we've really just seen amazing uptake. We've had over 5,000 downloads of our core collection on galaxy. And again that's just since mid to late March when we first launched. So we're really seeing tremendous excitement with it. >> You know, I want to want to talk about some of the new announcements, but you brought that up. I wanted to kind of tie into it. It is addictive when you think modernization, people success is addictive. This is another theme coming out of AnsibleFest this year is that when the sharing, the new content you know, coders content is the theme. I got to ask you because you mentioned earlier about the business value and how the clients are kind of gravitating towards it. They want it.It is addictive, contagious. In the ivory towers in the big, you know, front office, the business. It's like, we've got to make everything as a service. Right. You know, you hear that right. You know, and say, okay, okay, boss You know, Skyla, just go do it. Okay. Okay. It's so easy. You can just do it tomorrow, but to make everything as a service, you got to have the automation, right. So, you know, to bridge that gap has everything is a service whether it's mainframe. I mean okay. Mainframe is no problem. If you want to talk about observability and microservices and DevOps, eventually everything's going to be a service. You got to have the automation. Could you share your, commentary on how you view that? Because again, it's a business objective everything is a service, then you got to make it technical then you got to make it work and so on. So what's your thoughts on that? >> Absolutely. I mean, agility is a huge theme that we've been focusing on. We've been delivering a lot of capabilities around a cloud native development experience for folks working on COBOL, right. Because absolutely you know, there's a lot of languages coming to the platform. Java is incredibly powerful and it actually runs better on Z than it runs on any other platform out there. And so, you know, we're seeing a lot of clients you know, starting to, modernize and continue to evolve their applications because the platform itself is incredibly modern, right? I mean we come out with new releases, we're leading the industry in a number of areas around resiliency, in our security and all of our, you know, the face of encryption and number of things that come out with, but, you know the applications themselves are what you know, has not always kept pace with the rate of change in the industry. And so, you know, we're really trying to help enable our clients to make that leap and continue to evolve their applications in an important way, and the automation and the tools that go around it become very important. So, you know, one of the things that we're enabling is the self service, provisioning experience, right. So clients can, you know, from Open + Shift, be able to you know, say, "Hey, give me an IMS and z/OS connect stack or a kicks into DB2 stack." And that is all under the covers is going to be powered by Ansible automation. So that really, you know, you can get your system programmers and your talent out of having to do these manual tasks, right. Enable the development community. So they can use things like VS Code and Jenkins and GET Lab, and you'll have this automated CICB pipeline. And again, Ansible under the covers can be there helping to provision those test environments. You know, move the data, you know, along with the application, changes through the pipeline and really just help to support that so that, our clients can do what they need to do. >> You guys got the collections in the hub there, so automation hub, I got to ask you where do you see the future of the automating within z/OS going forward? >> Yeah, so I think, you know one of the areas that we'd like to see go is head more towards this declarative state so that you can you know, have this declarative configuration defined for your Z environment and then have Ansible really with the data and potency right. Be able to, go out and ensure that the environment is always there, and meeting those requirements. You know that's partly a culture change as well which goes along with it, but that's a key area. And then also just, you know, along with that becoming more proactive overall part of, you know, AI ops right. That's happening. And I think Ansible on the automation that we support can become you know, an integral piece of supporting that more intelligent and proactive operational direction that, you know, we're all going. >> Awesome Skyla. Great to talk to you. And so insightful, appreciate it. One final question. I want to ask you a personal question because I've been doing a lot of interviews around skill gaps and cybersecurity, and there's a lot of jobs, more job openings and there are a lot of people. And people are with COVID working at home. People are looking to get new skilled up positions, new opportunities. Again cybersecurity and spaces and event we did and want to, and for us its huge, huge openings. But for people watching who are, you know, resetting getting through this COVID want to come out on the other side there's a lot of online learning tools out there. What skill sets do you think? Cause you brought up this point about modernization and bringing new people and people as a big part of this event and the role of the people in community. What areas do you think people could really double down on? If I wanted to learn a skill. Or an area of coding and business policy or integration services, solution architects, there's a lot of different personas, but what skills can I learn? What's your advice to people out there? >> Yeah sure. I mean on the Z platform overall and skills related to Z, COBOL, right. There's, you know, like two billion lines of COBOL out there in the world. And it's certainly not going away and there's a huge need for skills. And you know, if you've got experience from other platforms, I think bringing that in, right. And really being able to kind of then bridge the two things together right. For the folks that you're working for and the enterprise we're working with you know, we actually have a bunch of education out there. You got to master the mainframe program and even a competition that goes on that's happening now, for folks who are interested in getting started at any stage, whether you're a student or later in your career, but you know learning, you know, learn a lot of those platforms you're going to be able to then have a career for life. >> Yeah. And the scale on the data, this is so much going on. It's super exciting. Thanks for sharing that. Appreciate it. Want to get that plug in there. And of course, IBM, if you learn COBOL you'll have a job forever. I mean, the mainframe's not going away. >> Absolutely. >> Skyla, thank you so much for coming on theCUBE Vice President, for the Z Application Platform and IBM, thanks for coming. Appreciate it. >> Thanks for having me. >> I'm John Furrier your host of theCUBE here for AnsibleFest 2020 Virtual. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>From the cube studios in Palo Alto and Boston gets the Q covering IBM thing brought to you by IBM. >>Welcome back to our coverage of IBM think 2020 the digital version of IBM. Thank, my name is Dave Vellante and you're watching the cube. Hillary Hunter is here. She's the vice president and CTO of IBM cloud and also an IBM fellow. Hillary, thanks for coming on. Good to see you. >>Thanks so much for having me today. >>All right, let's get really, let's get into it. We want to focus on security and compliance. It's a key, obviously a key aspect and consideration for customers. But I have to start by asking you, there's this sort of the age old conflict between being secure and then having the flexibility and agility and speed that business people need. How does IBM clouds sort of square that circle? >>Yeah, you know, it's, it's really interesting because cloud itself is detained, um, designed to deliver agility, um, and speed. And that's everything from the release cadence to being able to consume things as APIs. And so when we say cloud and security, it's about the things that we implement as a cloud provider and the services that we stand up. And all of that is API driven. Um, all of that is intended to enable, you know, data protection through API APIs intended to enable security monitoring through PIs and dashboards and other things like that. And so actually when delivered as cloud services, security functions can actually even go more quickly and can facilitate that speed and agility in and of themselves. So it's really interesting that the means of delivering cloud capabilities actually can facilitate that agility in the security area. >>Yeah, I mean I think it's, especially in these times with COBIT 19 a lot of why is that? We're talking, you were saying, Hey, yeah, we're really going harder, uh, for the cloud because the downturns have been actually pretty good for them. For the cloud. I presume you're sort of seeing the same thing, but if you think about the cost of a breach, it's millions of millions of dollars on average. And think about the time it takes for an organization to identify when there's been an infiltration. Mmm. I know small companies like ours, we feel good that we can tap into, you know, cloud infrastructure. what are your thoughts? Oh, on sort of that whole notion cloud essentially maybe even having better security in a way, but however you define better. >>Yeah. You know, I, I actually agree with those statements and I think it's played out in many of our client engagements. Um, because when you are talking about cloud and you're talking about security, we have the opportunity to present to you a proactive approach, right? Where we're saying, okay, leverage this type of technology in order to do your key management or data encryption. It is up by us already fully as a service. You consume it API driven. Um, and so we are able to say that this will enable you to have end to end data encryption or corruption according to some standard or key management, um, where the keys remained in your hands or you know, use these things that are security services so that there isn't, um, there doesn't have to be, um, as detailed of a conversation. Um, as you often have to have in your solution, in your own it. >>You can say, okay, what's the objective we're trying to get to what is the net security and compliance posture? And we as a cloud provider can be proactive and telling you, Hey, therefore then use this combination of services and use them in this following way and that will enable you to reach those outcomes. And so moving past, um, you know, being fully self service where you have to configure hundreds and hundreds of things yourselves. To me being more prescriptive and proactive and goal oriented and outcome oriented, um, is an opportunity that we have in cloud where we're standing up Janning up capabilities. And so we really tried to talk to clients about, okay, what's the, what are you trying to accomplish? Are you concerned about control over your it? Are you concerned about meeting particular documentation on particular regulatory compliance? What's the point? And then how does that relate into a conversation about data compute, networking, et cetera, and then what does that matter too in terms of how you should then use certain cloud capabilities. >>I want to follow up on that, Hillary, because I want to see it. If I can discern, maybe there's some difference in the way IBM approaches this. I've often said in the cube that bad user behavior trumps good security every time. And of course you've got multiple layers, you've got IBM securing, you know it's infrastructure and it's cloud. You've got it in whatever role there and you've got the end user now. Yeah. Somebody fishes the end user or end user admin. Okay. There are things you can do fine. Hmm. But there's also the, it kind of in the middle you mentioned managed services is IBM's approach, you know, somewhat different >>no >>cloud suppliers. Maybe you could elaborate on that. >>Yeah. So, you know, we really look to protect the services that we're standing up, whether it's infrastructure services, where it's yeah, networking, whether or not it's container service or you know, other services that we're providing. We're looking to protect it, those, you know, down to the core of what that service is and how it works and, and how it provides security and then the technologies that that service integrates into. Right? So services seamlessly integrating into bring your own key and our, um, FIPs one 40 dash two level four baths, um, keep your own key, et cetera. So, so we take other things for our clients and then in doing so, we enable end to end the client to understand both what the status of the service itself is as well as, um, you know, how they use it in order to take into account other security considerations. >>And, and I think it is a fundamentally different, um, approach then one takes for, you know, your own it, you're responsible end to end for everything. In this case, you know, we a secure what we're doing. And then we enable through things like our security advisor, um, to do configurations in such that, that governed the developer behavior and ensure that overall together between us and the client, the posture, even of what the developers and such is understood and can be monitored and ensured that it is secure and compliant. Okay. So I just want to take an example of that. So you are responsible for let's say, securing the object store as an example, but yet at the same time the clients it organization policies that map to the edict of their organization. So they've got flexibility sort of a partnership. Okay. Am I understanding that correctly? >>Yeah, absolutely. And the question is then that it organization that's taken policies, um, we then enable our clients to use tools, everything from things that can be integrated into the dev sec ops pipeline of red hat, you know, and initiatives that are going on. We had CNCF and NIST and other places like that. Yeah. So how can they translate their risk, insecurity, postures into concrete tools? That's that we deliver, right? Everything from dev, sec ops and OpenShift. So then tools and dashboards that we have, like security advisor, um, so that they can then most effectively implement the entirety of what constitutes security on in public cloud environment with confidence. Yeah. So security in compliance slash privacy or sort of two sides of the same coin. So I want to understand, Oh, IBM cloud is approaching, Oh, compliance, obviously GDPR, yeah, yeah. Whatever. They may have, I guess 2018 in terms of the fines. >>Oh, the, the California consumer privacy act. Everybody sort of has their own little GDPR now States and regions and countries, et cetera. How is IBM supporting clients in regard to Oh, compliance such initiatives? Yeah. You know, and this is an area where, you know, again, we are working to make it as easy as possible for our clients to not only see our status on certain compliance areas, which is visible through our website on compliance, but also to achieve compliance is where there is some joint or shared responsibility. So for example, in Europe with the European banking 30, we have kind of an industry unique position and enabling clients you achieve, um, what is needed. And so we provide proactive, you know, guidance. I'm on European banking authority or a PCI DSS or other things like that. So we really are trying to take a very proactive approach to Mmm, uh, providing the guidance that clients need and meeting them in that journey over all. >>We, in addition have a specific program for financial services, um, where we announced our partnership back in November with the bank of America for financial services for a very significant control setting compliance, um, that is not just a of a bunch of little existing things, but it really is a tailored control set for the financial services industry. Um, that acknowledges the fact that, you know, getting compliance in that space can be particularly, ah, particularly challenging. So we are, are taking a very proactive approach, do helping our clients across different doctors, um, deal with those changing, you know, postures and internally as a cloud organization. Um, we are advised also by IBM Promitory, which, um, it has extensive background over 70 jurisdictions globally, changes in all these postures and in compliance and rules and such like that, that they consistently and continuously monitor. Um, and help us design the right cloud moving forward. Cause is compliance as you said is it's very much a dynamic and changing landscape. >>You know, when you talk to chief information security officers and ask them what their biggest challenges, they'll tell you. Yeah. The lack of skills. Uh, and so they're looking to automation. It really helped close that gap. And clearly cloud is sort of all about automation. So I wonder if you could just talk a little bit about what you're seeing with regard to automation generally, but specifically how it's helping, you know, close that skills gap. >>Yeah, you know, it, the, the, the topic of automation is so interesting when it intersects security because I really view this, um, transition to cloud and the use of cloud native and the use of containers and such actually is an opportunity again, yet again to improve security and compliance posture. Um, because cloud, um, and uh, the dev ops and CICB pipelines, um, and all of that of, of a cloud native build and a containerized build give you a certain opportunity both to prevent a bunch of behaviors as well as to collect certain information that may become useful later on. Um, I think actually called modernization because of the automation it brings, um, is a really, really topic for both CSOs and risk officers right now because it can not just improve the agility that you started with as a motivation to go to cloud, but it can also improve visibility into what's going on with all your workloads. >>You know, to know that a developer used a particular library and then you see, oops, maybe there's a concern about that library and you instantly know where across the entirety of your IOT that that's been deployed. That's a tremendous amount of knowledge. Um, and you can take either, you know, immediate action on that or you can through automation push out changes and things like that. Um, we use internally as a cloud provider the best of SRE and automation practices to keep our estate patched and other things like that. And that can also then translate into people's own workloads, which I think is a really exciting opportunity of cloud. >>You know, we're out of time, but I want to close and asking you sort of what we should look at 42, we had a great conversation earlier, well with Jamie Thomas about, about quantum and she talked about ideas. You get that on the IBM what what should we look forward to sort of in the coming months and even years in IBM cloud. >>Yeah. You know, we're really excited about that agility, that cloud itself for us as a company and provides, right? Like you said with quantum, it is the place that we can bring out the latest and greatest things, um, in, you know, uh, for our clients to use and experiment with and adopt their algorithms and such juice. So you're going to continue to see us taking a very aggressive posture in turning the latest and open source and technologies into cloud delivered fully managed services. Um, and so, you know, everything from what we've done already with, um, Istio is a service and can native as a server, a service and quantum as a service, et cetera. Um, you'll continue to see us take that approach that, um, you know, we want to be a fresh and vital environment for developers to consume the latest and greatest that's out there. Um, but yet as an enterprise focused company and a company, you know, very much focused on security and compliance, you'll continue to see us back those things with our own efforts to secure and then enable security, um, on our environment. >>Well, Hillary, thanks so much for coming on the cube. It's always great to have experts like yourself, uh, share with, uh, with our community. Appreciate it. >>Great. Thank you so much for having me. >>And so we're seeing cloud acceleration as a result of covert 19, but it's always been a, a real wave for the last 10 years. We're just seeing it again, accelerate even faster. This is Dave Volante for the cube. You're watching the cubes, continuous coverage of IBM thing, digital thing, 2020 people right there, but right back, right after this short, >>right.