(lively music) >> Welcome back everyone to theCUBE's live coverage in San Francisco for VMware Explorer 22 formerly VMworld, Dave 12 years we've been covering VMware's annual conference. Going next level explores bigger theme, Multi-cloud another inflection point for VMware. And again at the center of it is the partners Zia Yusuf is here senior vice president strategic ecosystem and industry solutions. You're the, you're, you got the keys to the kingdom for VMware, welcome to theCube. >> It's a pleasure, I mean, you guys are a legend here. This is my first time here. So, it's a pleasure and excited to chat with you. >> Well, great to have you, every single year, since 2010 we've always had great commentary and discussion and sometimes contentious discussion around the role of partners. Visa V, VMware's value proposition, VMware dominant and the enterprise data center, everyone knows that. Dominant and hybrid was first there, everyone knows that. Now going to the next level, the customer stay, they stay with VMware, they don't really leave. They still got a great loyal base but now the enterprise is going NextGen cloud native. The partners are energized with the conversations we're hearing is huge. There's changes of roles is clarity on value proposition. Monetization is hoppin'. It's great stuff, what's going on? You're new, but you have a view of this before. Take us through your what's going on in the partner network, what's the state of the union? >> Yeah, I think, thanks for the question. I think maybe just step back a second right, the word partners is a big word. It covers all kinds of things. VMware has had a rich history of partnerships you know, mostly technology related partnerships. So much of our products depend on other partners, OEM partners, and so on. We've also had a rich history of our channel. So, as you look at different channel partners as you look at going through different parts of the segment SMB and so on, in a cloud context, based on what's happening we needed to take an integrated ecosystem approach. That's the word I use, right. And for me it's, it's a little bit like a spider's web. Like no single strand in the web is that strong but when you put it together thoughtfully in a very deliberate way. That's what an integrated ecosystem strategy. And so we've got our VCP partners, longstanding history that machine continues. We've got our channel partners and OEM partners that machinery continues obviously Dell strategic partner, significant business. The parts of the puzzle that I've been focusing on is five other different pieces. So first of course, is our hyper scale partnerships long history with AWS, very successful history. We have GCVE with GCP. We announced, I think three, four months ago that GCP was joining our VMware cloud universal and a big announcement yesterday about Microsoft doing the same. And hopefully we extend that. So, as we work with this hyper scaler six or seven of these partners, it's a, as you can imagine kind of a multidimensional chess game, if you will a little bit competitive mostly cooperative and stuff, right. The GSI is very exciting piece of it. The essentials that Deloitte, Deloitte announced a new business unit on VMware, ACL did the same. That energy level has really gone up. You see it at the show here as well. We recognize that these significant SI's play a huge role in the decision making process with customers. And we want to enable them to build significant VMware businesses. It's a different game from that perspective. Last thing I'm point out is, industry and verticals. Right I mean, this is not being necessarily an area because of the layer of the stack we've been in. Obviously Telco is an end to end business unit for us. We have products, we have a go to market on Telco, public sector to some degree because you need all these three letter agencies and the security and compliance. But as you look at financial services as you look at retail, as you look at healthcare we need to be aware of the workload we need especially on modern apps, especially on the edge. So we kind of doubling down on some of our vertical capabilities. So, all of those things are connected as well, right. The SI to the hyper scale partners in a vertical context. >> What's the biggest change that you've seen? Because we've observed some partners are leaning out as they change their business. And VMware has got new partners coming in, leaning in. So you got mentioned, Dave mentioned Telco and you got new use cases with edge and multi-cloud so you know, some people kind of maybe age out or change their strategy, some double down the core partner network, and then new ones come in. What's been the biggest change, if you can look at that holistically? >> Yeah, it's a great question, right? Because it's so multidimensional and there is no such thing as a GSI global system because they build products. Sometimes they act as a reseller, they're a solution provider. Also they provide services. So as their business model changes, we have to adjust how we engage with them. We can't put them in nice clean buckets. And that's what I'm doing with my colleagues here is how do we really enable them? And one of the things, I mean, I've done this type of stuff, I was at SAP for many years. We need to figure out how do we make them successful? Not just, this is what VMware wants you to do. We need to understand their business model and how do we fit into that? 'Cause if they grow, then we grow with that. And that is honestly a little, it's a subtle point, but it's a little bit of a nuanced. >> Yeah, it's very nuanced, but you have to nail that. You got to overlay. >> 100% >> The strategy where the enablement is technically or product wise, economics and conflict. (John laughing) >> And profitably, if they're profitably is important to us it's not just their growth. >> So Zia, I want to test the premise on you, something, John and I have been working on this notion of super cloud. And we did an event earlier this month, but one of the aspects that's kind of nuance and futuristic is if I'm a, let's say a financial services company and I'm going through a digital transformation I would be looking strategically at what, say Amazon did taking it's internal IT and then pointing at the world. I would say, I have data. I have tools, I have software, I have expertise that's really unique and could be value add. And I would be thinking, how do I monetize that, create my own cloud. And I'm actually just going to throw it into a public cloud to do that. I've got mainframes running, I've got Oracle stuff on Prem. I'm not going to shift that stuff into the cloud and maybe some of it, but I've got transaction systems and proprietary data. And a lot of it is running on VMware and I've got cloud stuff too. I would be looking at, okay, how do I build my own cloud and put my data, my tooling, my software in front of a new ecosystem, my own ecosystem that I can you know monetize. Are you seeing- >> Without spending the CapEx. >> Yeah, without having to build data centers? Right, exactly. I want to take advantage of the gift that the hyper scalers are given. Are you seeing any activity bubbling up in that regard? >> It's a really, it's a really interesting question. And I think the terminology that we've used around cloud smart kind of goes into that. So let me take what you said. >> Okay please, yeah. >> And frame it in a slightly different way. You can standardize on public clouds and everybody's using the same thing. You're using the same services, and so on. Theoretically that could lose some of your differentiation. Right, I mean, especially for financial services companies that have built so much of their you know, trading test down to the milli, milli, millisecond and how do they do that, and so on. So, I think you have something there right. So, as they look at their technology and software strategy, yes there's cost reduction aspects of it. There's refactoring aspects of it that hygiene that needs to be done as Rughu talked about from this cloud chaos to cloud smart, if you will but then how do you differentiate on the business processes? How do you differentiate that then down into the workloads? And I think that's where to use an old term. It takes a village, right, you've got the system integrator that's providing this stuff. You've got other strategy firms like the BCGs and McKinseys of the world that have huge influence now. Then you've got technology players that are coming into that. And I think the cloud smart approach is to do exactly what you're saying. It's not just the refactoring, it's not just movement to the cloud. How do you retain your competitive edge from the processes the models, the thinking that you've built up over many years. So, I don't know if it's super cloud or what that means, but that at the end of the day, this is about business processes. At the end of the day, this is about having a competitive edge in the market and I think you could do it. >> It's industry cloud, right? >> It's, that's a good way to put it. >> Yeah. >> I think Industry cloud is a good way. >> Why is there security cloud, Why isn't there an insurance cloud? Why's there a FinTech cloud? So I mean if you look at Goldman Sachs capital one. >> Right. >> There, CapEx is handled by AWS. Snowflake built their entire business on AWS. Didn't spend the dime on CapEx. Well, they spent a lot of operating expense for that CapEx and the fees, but still they became successful. And then the rest is history. So, I think people are seeing this idea of I'll ride that back on the CapEx of the hyper scalers and then use the tooling from the partner network and what's available. To then, cobble together in an architectural engineered way, distributed computing way, a new way to do things. Okay, so if you believe that, which we do, then you say, oh, it's on the balance sheet. So, what we've been hearing from companies is like, "Hey it's going to be on the balance sheet", I better have an income statement impact on the top line. So, you start to see behavior change at the customers not IT powering the business and the back office and terminals and some app. >> Crosscutting. >> It's like, no, no, no this is a digital business. So, the integration of balance sheet income statement on the economics is driving a lot of the behavior at the customers. So we see customers thinking this way and it's like we've never seen this level of business model refactoring as well as partner vendor selection, product technology mix at the same time. >> And VMware. >> At this level. >> Need the connective tissue between the hyper scalers in the ecosystem and actually provide those cross cloud connections. >> Yeah. >> You know, to the extent there's a business case there, that's what we're trying to of squint through. Is it going to be hybrid with on-prem in one cloud or is there an advantage of going cross clouds beyond just avoiding lock in you know, to take advantage of global infrastructure? >> So and then the next question is the Tam then bigger which means the partners are better? >> Yeah right. >> Participate in that. >> Yeah, I think, and we look at economics of this, right? I mean, there's a huge emphasis on cost, right. Cost, and I completely get that. I think, as I've talked to customers both now that I'm here but before advising a range of companies the innovation process, the time to impact is equally important all right as you compete. There's no point in just getting your cost down. If you're then getting beaten up in the market and you're not able to differentiate with new digital services. And this is where call it super cloud, call it industry cloud. We need to connect up to the business processes and the business impact and not just in my view the cost infrastructure piece of it. >> Yeah. And that we can't do on our own, we're not an apps company. So we're, you're not SAP, we're not Oracle, but we need to work with those players to make sure that their workloads are optimized in the right cloud in the right configuration. And that is a job to be done as opposed to just let's take it to town. >> And there's clearly a technology business case, especially if we're working with companies like VMware who's going to help me you know, simplify. >> Right. >> My move to the multi-cloud but there's also a business and economic impact in that. Even if it's not, if it could be simple as if I partner with Microsoft I'm going to do more business right if I'm one of these industry clouds. So I see that as another potential tailwind, it's really, it's like when Dreesen says all your companies are software companies, to me all companies are cloud companies, now increasingly. >> Look the difference between cloud and apps and then stuff, I mean like. >> Yeah, it's all. >> It's like you know there's used to be infrastructure and then apps company and so on. We need to deliver with our ecosystem partners and integrated solution and solution with a big S not just the technology solution but the broader, I mean look at the change management. >> Yeah, yeah. >> We talked about culture, I mean, if you don't get that piece right and the change management piece. >> Everything, yeah. >> You know the rest of it is history. >> Well and it's got to be delivered as a service, >> It has to be. >> Which is huge implications as to how you deal with change management. >> And this goes back to my kind of first comment is I really try and think of this by architecting the ecosystem. I don't like the word alliances. Right I mean, let's say kind of a one to one relationship. You know, let's do an agreement, let's go have dinner, but architecting the ecosystem the spiders web, who are the different players how can we compliment each other? And if it, Deloitte and a Microsoft want to do amazing business together related to VMware technology I want to encourage that. And so those third party Connections. >> You guys your contextualizing the ecosystem, basically. And I think from a customers standpoint that's a benefit to them, in my opinion in fact, Dave, remember at our supercloud.world event URL supercloud.world is the plug for the site. They can check it out. One of the comments from the cloudarati panel was we had a title this session called the innovators dilemma you know question mark you know . >> Best book ever written. >> Yeah, yeah. And so the, one of the panels said, it shouldn't be, we should change it to the integrators dilemma because what's happening is that integration is now standard table stakes and, but integrating the right things now matters, right? So, integration for integration sake isn't necessarily the end game anymore. >> And this is where. >> And this kind of where you're getting at with the spider's web is that integrating properly is a solution mindset. >> And look, I'm integrating also, you know have to bring in data from that perspective. Right, at the end of the day data being the new oil, if you will, the integration allows that data to flow to the right place at the right time to make the right decision. Now, we are not doing all of those pieces but we are certainly enabling that. And as you especially start looking at what we can do on the edge and what we can do in a retail store and a factory and so on those kinds of things come together. >> Okay, Zia take some time. We got a couple minutes left, only two minutes left, I want you to get some commentary directly to the audience around what specifically you're doubling down on. That's new that you're investing in on the partner network or your partner strategy. What is a steady state that's being nurtured and farmed or whatever word you want to use, but here's our core thing. Here's the area of improvement we're going to be in you know, cranking the handle on take us through that. >> Sure. >> I know you got OAM, got telco, got new things going on. >> Yeah so, maybe a couple of things right. >> lay it all out. >> First of all it has to be linked to VMware strategy. So as we transition on this journey to subscription saas ARR, we need to bring our ecosystem along to do that. That has business model implications that has implications on how we engage with them, how we define success how we value things. So that's an important journey. Secondly, is we need to do a better job of enabling our partners. Right, I mean, we have our partner connected. We do a pretty good job on the channel side. We need to do a better job on the GSIs is really understanding their business model, how they're engaging with their customers and provide them the technology the support, the financial resources, so that they can be successful. That's very important. Third is, to connect the dots on the ecosystem, right? I mean it's a, I've spent a lot of time in this event as well in joint meetings between system integrators and hyper scalers with our technology colleagues on Intel or NetApp or AMD. And these are companies that we have a rich history with. We're trying to connect, because that's how customers look at it. So, connecting the dots between the ecosystem super important to us, and then look, there's a change management journey within VMware. We also need to understand how we can engage with partners in a more productive, effective way. How do we scale this up? I believe, I think our leadership in Raghu and Sumit we are not going to succeed unless we have a profitable, engaged, passionate ecosystem around. >> Yeah I mean, they got to make money. They got to. >> Exactly. >> Be successful, have successful customers, their end customers your customers. Well, all good, question of where you're investing the most right now. If you had to put a kind of the pie chart together, I mean some of it's steady state like it's a machine, some of it's new like Telco for instance I mean here's. >> I think again, rich history on the channel side, we continue to invest there. Very valuable to go do that. I think some of these newer areas around the system integrators, especially the large ones, the Whipple's the HCLs, Deloittes essentials of the world, very important. The hyper scaler relationships directly leads into ARR. You saw the VMC cloud Universal will continue. >> We have Google on great props from Google. >> Yeah, We love it you guys. >> Yeah, and so look, I think we are not multi-cloud unless we go do this. Right I mean, Raghuram made a joke about this. We were single cloud and now we're multi-cloud, we want our customers to be able to procure these integrated solutions through VMware and our hyper scaler partners will continue to do that's when multi-cloud really become. And so the GTM motion, the discounting the commission structure all of that machinery is an important radio for me. >> Zia thank you so much for coming on theCube. I know you've been super busy. You got to go out and hit all the partners say hello, compressing you know, got to hit the pavement, say hello to everyone. >> It's been fantastic, the partners have too many, too many parties and so. (Interviewers laughing) But that's a fun part of my job, but appreciate your time. >> You got good stamina. >> Thanks Zia. >> So you got to have that in this game. Not about the faint of heart here at VMware. Zia thank you for coming on. >> Of course. >> This is the cube coverage, back after lunch. After the short break day two of three days of live coverage here in Moscone West on the street floor level of the event I'm John Furrier with Dave Alante. We'll be right back. (lively music)

>>The queue presents Coon and cloud native con Europe, 2022, brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >>Welcome to Valencia Spain and Coon cloud native con Europe, 2022. I'm Keith towns, along with Paul Gillon, senior editor, enterprise architecture, Silicon angle. We are going to talk to some amazing folks, especially in today's segment. Paul there's a lot of companies here, like what what's been the, the consistent theme you've heard so far in the show. >>Well, you know, one thing that's different from this show, it seems to me than others I've attended is it's all around open source. We're not seeing a lot of companies bringing new proprietary technology to market. We are seeing them try to piece together, open source components with some kind of, perhaps there's a proprietary element to it, but to create some kind of a, a common management interface or control plane, and that's quite different from what I think we've seen in the past and open source business models have been difficult to make work historically. And these companies are all taking their, their own approaches to it. But I think the, the degree to which this, the people here of coalesced around the importance of open source is building blocks to the future of, of applications is something I've not seen quite this way before. >>Well, with our current segment guests, we're gonna go deep into kind of these challenges and how enterprises are addressing, and their partners are addressing with those challenges we have with us, a flower head of cloud native HCL technologies. We'll get into how a system integrator is helping with this transition to Ramon neon, senior product manager, redhead. Welcome to the show. You're now cute. Alum. Welcome. >>Thanks for having us. >>So we're gonna get right off, off the bat. We're gonna talk about this. What are some of the trends you're seeing when it comes to application migration? You've done, I'm assuming at this point, thousands of them, what are some of the common trends? >>Well, it's a very good question. And clearly a C we've helped thousands of clients move tens of thousands of applications to what we would call a cloud native, you know, environment. I think the overwhelming trend that we're seeing of course is clients realize it's a particularly complex, sophisticated journey. It requires a certain set of skills and capability clients increasingly asking us for anything that we can do to simplify and accelerate the journey, cuz what's really important to clients. If you're on a transformation journey to cloud is you wanna see some value very quickly. So I don't wanna wait three to five years to transform my applications portfolio. If you can do something in three to five days, that would be perfect. Thank you. >>Well, three to five days, that sounds more akin to when we were doing P to V or V to V migrations, I'm sure HCL is at this point done in the millions of those types of migrations. What are some of the challenges or the nuance in doing a traditional migration from a traditional MI monolithic application to a cloud native? >>Well, it's another good question. Of course you notice that there's a general trend in the industry. Clients don't really want to lift and shift anymore. Lift and shift doesn't really bring any transformational value to my, to my company. So clients are looking for increasingly what we could call cloud native modernization. I want my applications to really take advantage of the cloud native environment. They need to be elastic and kind of more robust than maybe before now in particular, I think a lot of clients have realized that this state of Nirvana, which was we're gonna modernize everything to be a cloud native microservices based application. That is a tremendous journey, but no client really has the time patient or resources to fully refactor or rearchitect all of their applications. They're looking for more immediate kind of impact. So a key trend that we've seen of course is clients still want to refactor and modernize applications, but they're focusing those resources on those applications that will bring greater impact to their business. >>What they now see as a better replacement for lift and shift is probably what we would call replatforming, where they want all of the advantages of a cloud native environment, but they haven't necessarily got the time to modernize the code base. They wanna refactor to Kubernetes and re replatform to Kubernetes in particular, and they want us to take them there quickly. And that's why, for example, this week at cuon eight sellers announced a new set of tools called KMP based on conveyor, an open source project supported by red hat. And the key attraction of KMP is it lets me replatform my applications to Kubernetes immediately, right? Within two or three minutes, I can bring an application from a legacy platform directly onto Kubernetes and I can take it straight into production. That's the kind of acceleration that clients are looking for today. Isn't >>That just a form of lift and shift though? >>Well, no lift and shift typically of course, was moving virtual machines from one place to another. You know, the focus of Kubernetes of course is containerization of solutions. And it's not just about containerizing the solution and movement. It it's the DevOps tool chain around the solution as well. And of course, when I take that application into production in a Kubernetes based environment, I'm expecting to operate it in a different way as well. So that's where we see tremendous focus on what we would call cloud native operations clients expecting to use practices like site reliability engineering, to run these replatformed applications in a different way to, >>It sounds like you're saying, I mean, replatforming has been a, a spectrum of options. I think Gartner has seven different types of platforming. Are you seeing clients take more mature attitude now to replatforming? Are they looking more carefully at the characteristics of their legacy applications and, and try to try to make maybe more nuanced choices about what to replatform, what to just leave >>Alone? I think clients and I I'm sure Ramon's got some comments on this too, but clients have a lot more insight now in terms of what works for them. They they've realized that this, this promise of maybe a microservices based applications estate is a good one, but I can't do that for every application. If I am a large enterprise with several thousand applications in my portfolio, I can't refactor everything to become microservices based. So clients see replatforming possibly it's a middle ground. I, I get a lot of the advantages from a cloud native environment. My applications are inherently more efficient, hopefully a lot more performance. >>Yeah. It's, it's a matter of software delivery performance. Yeah. So legacy workloads will definitely benefit from being brought into Kubernetes in the software delivery per performance department. So it's a matter of somehow revamping your, your legacy applications and getting the benefits in, in life's application, life cycle management, a full tolerance and all that stuff. It's about leveraging the, what Kubernetes offers. >>When you say bringing legacy applications into Kubernetes. It's not that simple, right? I mean, what's involved in doing that. >>It, it, isn't, it's just a matter of taking a holistic view at your application portfolio and understanding the nuance sets of each application type within your organization and trying to come up with a suitable migration strategy for each one of these application types. And for that, what we're trying to do is provide a series of standardized tools and methodologies from a community perspective, we created this conveyor community. It, it was kick started by red hat and IBM, but we are trying to bring as many vendors and GSI as possible to try to set up these standards to make these road towards Kubernetes as easy as >>Possible. So we've done a little bit of app modernization in the CTO advisor hybrid infrastructure. And one of the things that we've found is there's plenty of Avan advantages. If I take a monolithic application that has that I've traditionally had to scale off to game performance, I can take selective parts of that, and now I can add autoscaling to it. Exactly. However, as I look at a landscape Allen of thousands of applications, I need to dedicate developer resources to get that done in my traditional environment. But my traditional environment is busy building new. My traditional or my developers are building new applications and new capabilities. I just don't have the resources to do that. How does HCL and red hat team together to kind of fast track that capability? >>Well, I'll comment on two things in particular, actually the, the first thing when it comes to skilling, I think the thing that's really surprised us at HCL is so many of our clients around the world have said, we are desperately short of skills. We cannot hire ourselves out of this problem. We need to get our existing developer community reskilled around platforms like OpenShift, conveyor, and other projects too. So the first thing that's happened to us at eight seal is we've been incredibly busy undertaken, probably what we would call developer workforce modernization, right? Where we have to help the client reskill their entire technical and developer community to give them the skills, right. So we will help the clients develop a community, build the cloud native understanding, help them understand how to modernize tools for example, or applications. But the second thing I mention is, and this comes back to a comment the Ram made around around conveyor. >>It's been really encouraging to see the open source community, start to invest in building the supporting frameworks around my kind of modernization journey, because if I'm a developer that's reskilling and I'm attempting to maybe modernize an application, being able to dip into an opensource project, I mean, a good example would be tackled part of the conveyor project. Exactly. You now have open source based tools that will help you analyze your applications. They will go into the source code and they will give the developer guidance in terms of what would be effective treatments to undertake. So perhaps a development team that are new to this modernization journey, they would benefit from a project like conveyor, for example, exactly because I need to know where can I safely modernize my application now for experience organizations like HCL that comes naturally to us, but for people who are just starting this journey, if I can take an open source tool like tackle or the rest of conveyor, for example, and use that to accelerate my journey, it takes a lot of pressure off, off my organization, but it also accelerates the journey too. And >>It's not just a matter of, of tooling. We we're also, opensourcing the, the modernization methodology that we've been using in red hat consulting for years. So this whole conveyor communities, it's all about knowledge sharing on one hand and building a set of tools together based on that knowledge that we are sharing to make it as easy as possible. >>And what role does red hat play in all that, I mean is your, your, you you've carved out this position for yourself as the, as the true open source company. Is that, does that position you for a leadership role in helping or companies make this >>Transition? I wouldn't say we should be leading the whole thing. We, we kick started it, but we want to get other vendors on board for this thing. One cool thing about the Camra community is that IBM is opensourcing a lot of their IP. So IBM research is on board. In this thing, we have some really crazy stuff related to a AI being applied to application analysis. We have some machine learning in place. We have very cool stuff that has been sitting on a, on a corner in IBM research for quite some years that now it's being open sourced and integrated in a unified user experience to streamline the modernization process as much as possible. >>So let's talk about the elephant of the room. HCL was leading the conversation around cloud Foundry circa five plus years ago. And as customers are thinking about their journey to cloud native, how should they think about that cloud Foundry to cloud native or Kubernetes replatform? >>Well with within the cloud Foundry community, we've, we've been quite staunched supporters of Kubernetes for quite some time, right? It's, it's quite a, a stated intent of the cloud Foundry foundation to, to move across to Kubernetes platform right now that is a significant engineering journey for cloud Foundry to take. Now we're in this position where a lot of large users of cloud Foundry have a certain urgency to their journey. They, they want to consolidate on a single Kubernetes based infrastructure. We, we see a lot of traction around OpenShift, for example, from red hat in terms of its market leadership. So a lot of clients are saying we would like to consolidate all of our platforms around a single kind of Kubernetes vendor, whether that's red hat or anyone else, you know, quite frankly. So what HCL is doing right now with the tools and the solutions we've announced this week is we're simply accelerating that journey for clients. If I've got a large installed base of applications running in my cloud Foundry environment, and I've also started to invest in standardize on Kubernetes place platforms like OpenShift, most clients would see it as quite a sensible choice to now try and consolidate those two environments into one. And that's simply what we're doing at HCL. We're making it very, very easy. In fact, we fully automated the journey so I can move all of my applications from cloud Foundry into for example, OpenShift pretty much immediately, and it just simplifies the entire journey. >>So the, as we start to wrap up the segment, I like to know customer stories. What, what, how customers either surprised or challenged when they get into, even with the help of an ACL in redhead, why are they seeing the most difficult parts of their migrations? >>Well, my, my simple comment would be maybe complexity, right? And the, the associated requirement for skilled people to undertake this modernization work, right? We spoke about this, of course, in terms of clients now are a lot more realistic. They understand that their ambition now needs to be somewhat tempered by their ability to sort of drive modernization quickly. So we see a lot of clients when they look at their very large global portfolios of applications, they're trying to invest their resources in the higher priority applications, the revenue generative applications in particular, but they have to bring everything else with them as well. Now, a common kind of separation point was we see a lot of clients who might say I'm gonna properly modernize and refactor, maybe five to 10% of my portfolio, but the other 90% also needs to come on the journey as well. And that's really where replatforming in particular kicks in. So, so the key trend again, is, is clients send to us, I've gotta take the entire journey. All right, I've got the resources and the skills to really focus on this much of my application base. Can someone simplify the overall journey so I can afford to bring everything on a cloud native journey? >>So the key to success here is having a holistic view at the application portfolio, segmenting the application portfolio in different application types and ordering the, the priorities of these application types and come up with suitable migration strategies for each one of them is >>Really necessary to move everything though. >>Not necessarily, no. Yeah. Or not necessarily. Yeah, absolutely not everything, but it would make sense. As we were saying before, it will definitely move, make sense to move legacy applications towards Kubernetes, to leverage all the software delivery. >>That's, that's a big project, right? >>It is. >>If you're gonna restructure the application around eight API and microservices, >>That it should be taken the way I've seen organizations succeeding the most in these road towards cloud native and Kubernetes in general is trying to address the whole portfolio. Maybe not move everything, but try to have this holistic view and not leave anything behind. Because if you try to do this isolated initiatives of bringing these or that application in, in isolation, you're Def you, you will miss part of the picture and you might be doomed to fail >>There. Yeah. It's been my experience that if you don't have a plan to migrate your applications to a cloud native operating model, then you're doomed to follow lift and shift examples to the public cloud. Yeah. Whether you're going to any other clouds, if you don't make that, that operational transition. Last question on operational transition, we've talked a lot about the replatforming process itself. What about day two at the I've landed to the cloud? What are some of the top considerations for, for compliance op observability? Just making sure my apps stay up in transitioning my workforce to that model. >>I think the over, you know, the overarching trend or theme that, that I see is clients now are, are asking for what I would call cloud native operations. Now in particular, there's a very solid theme around what we would call reliability engineering. So think about site reliability, engineering, SRE platform, reliability engineering, PR E. These are the dominant topics that clients now want to engage HCL on in particular, because the point you make is a valid one. I've modernized my application. Now I need to modernize the way that I operate the application in production. Otherwise I won't see those benefits. So that general theme of SRE is keeping us really busy. We're busy, re-skilling all of those operations teams around the world as well, because they need to know how to run these environments appropriately >>Too. And also being able to measure your progress while your transitioning is important. And that's one of the concerns that we are addressing as well in the community with a called polars to, to measure and to effectively measure the software delivery performance of, of the organization after the transition has been done. >>And this is a really good point by the way, cuz most, most people think it's a bit of a black art. How do I understand how I modernize my application? How do I understand how I've improved my kind of value chain around software creation and many people thought you needed to bring in very expensive consultants to advise you on these, on these black lives? No, >>Definitely >>Not. But in open source projects like conveyor from, from red hat, the availability of these tools available on an open source model means exactly any engineer, any developer can get these tools off the shelf and get that immediate benefit. >>Well, a flower head of creative labs at HCL at Ramon neon, senior product manager, redhead. Thank you for joining the Q you now cube alum. You'll have a nice profile like the profile pictures on here. Awesome. Absolutely. Thank you. From Valencia Spain. I'm Keith towns, along with Paul Gillon and you're watching the cue, the leader in high tech coverage.

>>The cube presents, Coon and cloud native con Europe 22, brought to you by the cloud native computing foundation. >>Welcome to Valencia Spain and Coon cloud native con Europe, 2022. I'm Keith towns, along with Paul Gillon, senior editor, enterprise architecture and Silicon angle. We are going to talk to some amazing folks, especially in today's segment. Paul, uh, there's a lot of companies here, like what what's been the, the consistent theme you've heard so far in the show. >>Well, you know, one thing that's different from this show, it seems to me than others I've attended is it's all around open source. We're not seeing a lot of companies bringing new proprietary technology to market. We are seeing them try to piece together, open source components with some kind of, perhaps there's a proprietary element to it, but to create some kind of a, a common management interface or control plane, and that's quite different from what I think we've seen in the past open source business models have been difficult to make work historically. Uh, and these companies are all taking their, their own approaches to it. But I think the, the degree to which this, the people here of coalesced around the importance of open source is building blocks to the future of, of applications is something I've not seen quite this way before. >>Well, with our current segment, guess we're gonna go deep into kind of these challenges and how enterprises are addressing, and their partners are addressing with those challenges we have with us, a flower head of cloud native HCL technologies. We'll get into how a system integrator is helping with this transition to Ramon neon, senior product manager, redhead. Welcome to the show. You're now cube alum. Welcome. Thanks for having us. So we're gonna get right off, uh, off the bat. We're gonna talk about this. What are some of the trends you're seeing when it comes to application migration? You've done, I'm assuming at this point, thousands of them, what are some of the common trends? >>Well, it's a very good question. And clearly ACL we've helped thousands of clients move tens of thousands of applications to what we would call a cloud native, um, you know, environment. I think the overwhelming trend that we're seeing of course is clients realize it's a particularly complex, sophisticated journey. It requires a certain set of skills and capability clients increasingly us for anything that we can do to simplify and accelerate the journey, cuz what's really important to clients. If you're on a transformation journey to cloud is you wanna see some value very quickly. So I don't wanna wait three to five years to transform my applications portfolio. If you can do something in three to five days, that would be perfect. Thank you. >>Well, three to five days, that sounds more akin to when we were doing, uh, P to V or V to V migrations. I'm sure. Uh, HCL is at this point done in the millions of those types of migrations. What are some of the challenges or the nuance in doing a traditional migration from a traditional MI monolithic application to a cloud native? >>Well, it's another good question. Of course you notice that there's a general trend in the industry. Clients don't really want to lift and shift anymore. Lift and shift doesn't really bring any transformational value to my, to my company. So clients are looking for increasingly what we could recall, cloud native modernization. I want my applications to really take advantage of the cloud native environment. They need to be elastic and kind of more robust than maybe before now in particular, I think a lot of clients have realized that this state of Nirvana, which was we're gonna modernize everything to be a cloud native microservices based application. That is a tremendous journey, but no client really has the time patient or resources to fully refactor or rearchitect all of their applications. They're looking for more immediate kind of impact. So a key trend that we've seen of course is clients still want to refactor and modernize applications, but they're focusing those resources on those applications that will bring greater impact to their business. >>What they now see as a better replacement for lift and shift is probably what we would call replatforming, where they want all of the advantages of a cloud native environment, but they haven't necessarily got the time to modernize the code base. They wanna refactor to Kubernetes in re replatform to Kubernetes in particular, and they want us to take them there quickly. And that's why, for example, this week at cuon eight sellers announced a new set of tools called KMP based on conveyor, an open source project supported by red hat. And the key attraction of KMP is it lets me replatform my applications to Kubernetes immediately, right? Within two or three minutes, I can bring an application from a legacy platform directly onto Kubernetes and I can take it straight into production. That's the kind of acceleration that clients are looking for today. Isn't >>That just a form of lift and shift though? >>Well, no lift and shift typically of course, was moving virtual machines from one place to another. You know, the focus of Kubernetes of course is containerization of solutions. And it's not just about containerizing the solution and moving it. It's the DevOps tool chain around the solution as well. And of course, when I take that application into production in a Kubernetes based environment, I'm expecting to operate it in a different way as well. So that's where we see tremendous focus on what we would call cloud native operations clients expecting to use practices like site reliability engineering, to run these replatformed applications in a different way to, so >>It sounds like you're saying, I, I mean, replatforming has been a, a spectrum of options. I think Gartner has seven different types of re-platforming. Uh, are you seeing clients take more mature attitude now toward replatforming? Are they looking more carefully at the characteristics of their legacy applications and, and trying to try to make maybe more nuanced choices about what to replatform, what to just leave >>Alone? I think clients and I I'm sure Ramon's got some comments on this too, but clients have a lot more insight now in terms of what works for them. They they've realized that this, this promise of maybe a microservices based applications estate is a good one, but I can't do that for every application. If I am a large enterprise with several thousand applications in my portfolio, I can't refactor everything to become microservices based. So clients see replatforming possibly is a middle ground. I, I get a lot of the advantages from a cloud native environment. My applications are inherently more efficient, hopefully a lot more performance. >>Yeah. It's, it's a matter of software delivery performance. Yeah. So, uh, legacy workloads will definitely benefit from, uh, being brought into Kubernetes in the software delivery per performance department. So, uh, it's a matter of, uh, somehow Rebump your, your legacy applications and getting the benefits in, in life's application, life cycle management, a, uh, full tolerance and all that stuff. It's about leveraging the, what Kubernetes offers. >>When you say bringing legacy applications into Kubernetes. It's not that simple, right? I mean, what's involved in doing that. >>It, it, isn't, it's just a matter of taking a holistic view at your application portfolio and understanding the nuances of each application type within your organization and trying to come up with a suitable migration strategy for each one of these application types. And for that, what we're trying to do is provide a series of standardized, um, tools and methodologies, uh, from a community perspective, uh, we created this conveyor community. Uh, it, it was kick started by red hat and IBM, but we are trying to bring as many vendors and GSI, uh, as possible to try to set up these standards to make these, uh, road towards Kubernetes as easy as >>Possible. So we've done a little bit of, uh, app modernization in the CTO advisor hybrid infrastructure. And one of the things that we've found, there's plenty of Avan advantages. If I take a monolithic application that has, uh, that I've traditionally had to scale off to, uh, game performance, I can take selective parts of that, and now I can add auto-scaling to it. Exactly. However, as I look at a landscape Allen of thousands of applications, uh, I need to dedicate developer resources to get that done and my traditional environment, but my traditional environment is busy building new. My traditional or my developers are building new applications and new capabilities. I just don't have the resources to do that. How does HCL and red hat team together to kind of fast track that capability? >>Well, um, I'll comment on two things in particular, actually the, the first thing when it comes to skilling, I think the thing that's really surprised us at HCL is so many of our clients around the world have said, we are desperately short of skills. We cannot hire ourselves out of this problem. We need to get our existing developer community re-skilled around platforms like OpenShift, conveyor, and other projects too. So the first thing that's happened to us at eight still is we've been incredibly busy undertaken, probably what we would call developer workforce modernization, right, where we have to help the client reskill their entire technical and developer community to give them the skills, right. So we will help the clients develop a community, build the cloud native understanding, help them understand how to modernize tools for example, uh, or applications. But the second thing I mention is, and this comes back to a comment that Ramon made around around conveyor. >>It's been really encouraging to see the open source community start to invest in building the supporting frameworks around my kind of modernization journey, because if I'm a developer that's re-skilling and I'm attempting to maybe modernize an application, being able to dip into an open source project, I mean, a good example would be tackled part of the conveyor project. Exactly. You now have open source based tools that will help you analyze your applications. They will go into the source code and they will give the developer guidance in terms of what would be effective treatments to undertake. So perhaps a development team that are new to this modernization journey, they would benefit from a project like conveyor, for example, because I need to know where can I safely modernize my application now for experience organizations like HCL that comes naturally to us, but for people who are just starting this journey, if I can take an open source tool like tackle or the rest of the conveyor, for example, and use that to accelerate my journey, it takes a lot of pressure off, off my organization, but it also accelerates the journey too. >>And it's not just a matter of, of tooling. We we're also opensourcing, uh, the, the modernization methodology that we've been using in red hat consulting for years. So this whole conveyor communities, it's all about knowledge sharing on one hand and building a set of tools together, based on that knowledge that we are sharing to make it as easy as possible. >>And what role does red hat play in all that, I mean, is your you've carved out this position for yourself as the, as the true open source company. Is that, does that position you for a leadership role in helping companies make this >>Transition? I wouldn't say we should be leading the whole thing. Uh, we, we kick started it, but we want to get other vendors on board for this thing. One cool thing about the Camira community is that IBM is, uh, opensourcing a lot of their IP. So IBM research is on board. In this thing, we have some really crazy stuff related to a AI being applied to application analysis. We have some machine learning in place. We have very cool stuff that has been sitting on a, on a corner in IBM research for quite some years that now it's being open sourced and integrated in a, uh, unified user experience to streamline the, uh, modernization process as much as >>Possible. So let's talk about the elephant of the room. Uh, HCL was leading the conversation around cloud Foundry circa five plus years ago. And as customers are thinking about their journey to cloud native, how should they think about that cloud Foundry to cloud native or Kubernetes, uh, replatforming? >>Well within the cloud Foundry community, we've, we've been quite staunched supporters of Kubernetes for quite some time, right? It's, it's quite a, a stated intent of the cloud Foundry foundation to, to move across to Kubernetes platform right now that is a significant engineering journey for cloud Foundry to take. Now we're in this position where a lot of large users of cloud Foundry have a certain urgency to their journey. They, they want to consolidate on a single Kubernetes based, okay. Um, infrastructure. We, we see a lot of traction around OpenShift, for example, from red hat in terms of its market leadership. So a lot of clients are saying we would like to consolidate all of our platforms around a single kind of Kubernetes vendor, whether that's red hat or anyone else, you know, quite frankly. So what ATL is doing right now with the tools and the solutions we've announced this week is we're simply accelerating that journey for clients. If I've got a large installed base of applications running in my cloud Foundry environment, and I've also started to invest in standardize on Kubernetes based platforms like OpenShift, most clients would see it as quite a sensible choice to now try and consolidate those two environments into one. And that's simply what we're doing at HCL. We're making it very, very easy. In fact, we fully automated the journey so I can move all of my applications from cloud Foundry into for example, OpenShift pretty much immediately. And it just simplifies the entire journey. >>So the, as we start to wrap up the segment, I like to know customer stories. What, what, how customers either surprised or challenged when they get into, even with the help of an ACL in redhead, why are they seeing the most difficult parts of their migrations? >>Well, my, my simple comment would be maybe complexity, right? And the, the associated requirement for skilled people to undertake this modernization work, right? We spoke about this, of course, in terms of clients now are a lot more realistic. They understand that their ambition now needs to be somewhat tempered by their ability to sort of drive modernization quickly. So we see a lot of clients when they look at their very large global portfolios of applications, they're trying to invest their resources in the higher priority applications, the revenue generative applications in particular, but they have to bring everything else with them as well. Now, a common kind of separation point was we see a lot of clients who might say I'm gonna properly modernize and refactor, maybe five to 10% of my portfolio, but the other 90% also needs to come on the journey as well. And that's really where replatforming in particular kicks in. So, so the key trend again, is, is clients send to us, I've gotta take the entire journey. All right, I've got the resources and the skills to really focus on this much of my application base. Can someone simplify the overall journey so I can afford to bring everything on a cloud native journey? >>So the key to success here is having a holistic view at the application portfolio, segmenting the application portfolio in different application types and ordering the, the priorities of these application types and come up with suitable migration strategies for each one of them is >>Really necess necessary to move everything though. >>Not necessarily no, or, uh, not necessarily. Yeah, absolutely not everything. But, uh, it would make sense. Uh, as we were saying before, it will definitely move, make sense to move legacy applications towards Kubernetes, to leverage all the, uh, software delivery >>That's >>That's project, right? >>It is. If >>You're gonna restructure the application around APIs and microservices, >>That it should be taken the, the way I've seen, uh, organizations succeeding the most in this, uh, road towards cloud native and Kubernetes in general is trying to address the whole portfolio. Maybe not move everything, but try, try to have this holistic view and not leave anything behind, because if you try to do this isolated, uh, initiatives of bringing this or that applications in a, in isolation, you're Def you, you will miss part of the picture and you might be, uh, doomed to fail >>There. Yeah. It's been my experience that if you don't have a plan to migrate your applications to a cloud native operating model, then you're doomed to follow lift and shift examples to the public cloud. Yeah. Whether you're, uh, going to any other clouds, if you don't make that, that operational transition. Last question on operational transition, we've talked a lot about the replatforming process itself. What about day two, uh, at the I've landed to the cloud? What are some of the top considerations for, for compliance, uh, op op observability, just making sure my apps stay up and transitioning my workforce to that model. >>I, I, I think the over, you know, the overarching trend or theme that, that I see is clients now are, are asking for what I would call cloud native operations. Now in particular, there's a very solid theme around what we would call reliability engineering. So think about site reliability, engineering, SRE platform, reliability engineering, PR E. These are the dominant topics that clients and I want to engage, uh, HCL on in particular, because the point you make is a valid one. I've modernized my application. Now I need to modernize the way that I operate the application in production. Otherwise I won't see those benefits. So that general theme of SRE is keeping us really busy. We're busy, re-skilling all of those operations teams around the world as well, because they need to know how to run these environments appropriately too. >>And also being able to measure your progress while your transitioning is important. And that's one of the concerns that we are addressing as well in the premier community with a tool called polars to, to measure, to effectively measure the software delivery performance of, of the organization after the transition has been done. >>And this is a really good point by the way, cuz most, most people think it's a bit of a black art. How do I understand how I modernize my application? How do I understand how I've improved my kind of value chain around software creation and many people thought you needed to bring in very expensive consultants to advise you on these, on these black lives? No, >>Definitely >>Not. But in open source projects like conveyor from, from red hat, the availability of these tools available on an open source model means exactly any engineer, any developer can get these tools off the shelf and get that immediate benefit. >>Well, a flower head of creative labs at HCL at Ramon neon, senior product manager, redhead. Thank you for joining the QPI. Now Cuba alum, uh, you'll have a nice profile like the profile picture on here. Awesome. >>Absolutely. Thank you. >>From Valencia Spain. I'm Keith towns, along with Paul Gillon and you're watching the cue, the leader in high tech coverage.

>> (upbeat music) [Narrator] From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of AnsibleFest 2020, brought to you by Red Hat. >> Hello welcome back to theCUBE virtual coverage of AnsibleFest 2020 Virtual. We're not face to face this year. I'm John Furrier, your host. We're bringing it together remotely. We're in the Palo Alto Studios with theCUBE and we're going remote for our guests this year. And I hope you can come together online enjoy the content. Of course, go check out the events site on Demand Live. And certainly I have a lot of great content. I've got a great guest Skyla Loomis Vice president, for the Z Application Platform at IBM. Also known as IBM Z talking Mainframe. Skyla, thanks for coming on theCUBE Appreciate it. >> Thank you for having me. So, you know, I've talked many conversations about the Mainframe of being relevant and valuable in context to cloud and cloud native because if it's got a workload you've got containers and all this good stuff, you can still run anything on anything these days. By integrating it in with all this great glue layer, lack of a better word or oversimplifying it, you know, things going on. So it's really kind of cool. Plus Walter Bentley in my previous interview was talking about the success of Ansible, and IBM working together on a really killer implementation. So I want to get into that, but before that let's get into IBM Z. How did you start working with IBM Z? What's your role there? >> Yeah, so I actually just got started with Z about four years ago. I spent most of my career actually on the distributed platform, largely with data and analytics, the analytics area databases and both On-premise and Public Cloud. But I always considered myself a friend to Z. So in many of the areas that I'd worked on, we'd, I had offerings where we'd enabled it to work with COS or Linux on Z. And then I had this opportunity come up where I was able to take on the role of leading some of our really core runtimes and databases on the Z platform, IMS and z/TPF. And then recently just expanded my scope to take on CICS and a number of our other offerings related to those kind of in this whole application platform space. And I was really excited because just of how important these runtimes and this platform is to the world,really. You know, our power is two thirds of our fortune 100 clients across banking and insurance. And it's you know, some of the most powerful transaction platforms in the world. You know doing hundreds of billions of transactions a day. And you know, just something that's really exciting to be a part of and everything that it does for us. >> It's funny how distributed systems and distributed computing really enable more longevity of everything. And now with cloud, you've got new capabilities. So it's super excited. We're seeing that a big theme at AnsibleFest this idea of connecting, making things easier you know, talk about distributed computing. The cloud is one big distribute computer. So everything's kind of playing together. You have a panel discussion at AnsibleFest Virtual. Could you talk about what your topic is and share, what was some of the content in there? Content being, content as in your presentation? Not content. (laughs) >> Absolutely. Yeah, so I had the opportunity to co-host a panel with a couple of our clients. So we had Phil Allison from Black Knight and Pat Lane from Allstate and they were really joining us and talking about their experience now starting to use Ansible to manage to z/OS. So we just actually launched some content collections and helping to enable and accelerate, client's use of using Ansible to manage to z/OS back in March of this year. And we've just seen tremendous client uptake in this. And these are a couple of clients who've been working with us and, you know, getting started on the journey of now using Ansible with Z they're both you know, have it in the enterprise already working with Ansible on other platforms. And, you know, we got to talk with them about how they're bringing it into Z. What use cases they're looking at, the type of culture change, that it drives for their teams as they embark on this journey and you know where they see it going for them in the future. >> You know, this is one of the hot items this year. I know that events virtual so has a lot of content flowing around and sessions, but collections is the top story. A lot of people talking collections, collections collections, you know, integration and partnering. It hits so many things but specifically, I like this use case because you're talking about real business value. And I want to ask you specifically when you were in that use case with Ansible and Z. People are excited, it seems like it's working well. Can you talk about what problems that it solves? I mean, what was some of the drivers behind it? What were some of the results? Could you give some insight into, you know, was it a pain point? Was it an enabler? Can you just share why that was getting people are getting excited about this? >> Yeah well, certainly automation on Z, is not new, you know there's decades worth of, of automation on the platform but it's all often proprietary, you know, or bundled up like individual teams or individual people on teams have specific assets, right. That they've built and it's not shared. And it's certainly not consistent with the rest of the enterprise. And, you know, more and more, you're kind of talking about hybrid cloud. You know, we're seeing that, you know an application is not isolated to a single platform anymore right. It really expands. And so being able to leverage this common open platform to be able to manage Z in the same way that you manage the entire rest of your enterprise, whether that's Linux or Windows or network or storage or anything right. You know you can now actually bring this all together into a common automation plane in control plane to be able to manage to all of this. It's also really great from a skills perspective. So, it enables us to really be able to leverage. You know Python on the platform and that's whole ecosystem of Ansible skills that are out there and be able to now use that to work with Z. >> So it's essentially a modern abstraction layer of agility and people to work on it. (laughs) >> Yeah >> You know it's not the joke, Hey, where's that COBOL programmer. I mean, this is a serious skill gap issues though. This is what we're talking about here. You don't have to replace the, kill the old to bring in the new, this is an example of integration where it's classic abstraction layer and evolution. Is that, am I getting that right? >> Absolutely. I mean I think that Ansible's power as an orchestrator is part of why, you know, it's been so successful here because it's not trying to rip and replace and tell you that you have to rewrite anything that you already have. You know, it is that glue sort of like you used that term earlier right? It's that glue that can span you know, whether you've got rec whether you've got ACL, whether you're using z/OSMF you know, or any other kind of custom automation on the platform, you know, it works with everything and it can start to provide that transparency into it as well, and move to that, like infrastructure as code type of culture. So you can bring it into source control. You can have visibility to it as part of the Ansible automation platform and tower and those capabilities. And so you, it really becomes a part of the whole enterprise and enables you to codify a lot of that knowledge. That, you know, exists again in pockets or in individuals and make it much more accessible to anybody new who's coming to the platform. >> That's a great point, great insight.& It's worth calling out. I'm going to make a note of that and make a highlight from that insight. That was awesome. I got to ask about this notion of client uptake. You know, when you have z/OS and Ansible kind of come in together, what are the clients area? When do they get excited? When do they know that they've got to do? And what are some of the client reactions? Are they're like, wake up one day and say, "Hey, yeah I actually put Ansible and z/OS together". You know peanut butter and chocolate is (mumbles) >> Honestly >> You know, it was just one of those things where it's not obvious, right? Or is it? >> Actually I have been surprised myself at how like resoundingly positive and immediate the reactions have been, you know we have something, one of our general managers runs a general managers advisory council and at some of our top clients on the platform and you know we meet with them regularly to talk about, you know, the future direction that we're going. And we first brought this idea of Ansible managing to Z there. And literally unanimously everybody was like yes, give it to us now. (laughs) It was pretty incredible, you know? And so it's you know, we've really just seen amazing uptake. We've had over 5,000 downloads of our core collection on galaxy. And again that's just since mid to late March when we first launched. So we're really seeing tremendous excitement with it. >> You know, I want to want to talk about some of the new announcements, but you brought that up. I wanted to kind of tie into it. It is addictive when you think modernization, people success is addictive. This is another theme coming out of AnsibleFest this year is that when the sharing, the new content you know, coders content is the theme. I got to ask you because you mentioned earlier about the business value and how the clients are kind of gravitating towards it. They want it.It is addictive, contagious. In the ivory towers in the big, you know, front office, the business. It's like, we've got to make everything as a service. Right. You know, you hear that right. You know, and say, okay, okay, boss You know, Skyla, just go do it. Okay. Okay. It's so easy. You can just do it tomorrow, but to make everything as a service, you got to have the automation, right. So, you know, to bridge that gap has everything is a service whether it's mainframe. I mean okay. Mainframe is no problem. If you want to talk about observability and microservices and DevOps, eventually everything's going to be a service. You got to have the automation. Could you share your, commentary on how you view that? Because again, it's a business objective everything is a service, then you got to make it technical then you got to make it work and so on. So what's your thoughts on that? >> Absolutely. I mean, agility is a huge theme that we've been focusing on. We've been delivering a lot of capabilities around a cloud native development experience for folks working on COBOL, right. Because absolutely you know, there's a lot of languages coming to the platform. Java is incredibly powerful and it actually runs better on Z than it runs on any other platform out there. And so, you know, we're seeing a lot of clients you know, starting to, modernize and continue to evolve their applications because the platform itself is incredibly modern, right? I mean we come out with new releases, we're leading the industry in a number of areas around resiliency, in our security and all of our, you know, the face of encryption and number of things that come out with, but, you know the applications themselves are what you know, has not always kept pace with the rate of change in the industry. And so, you know, we're really trying to help enable our clients to make that leap and continue to evolve their applications in an important way, and the automation and the tools that go around it become very important. So, you know, one of the things that we're enabling is the self service, provisioning experience, right. So clients can, you know, from Open + Shift, be able to you know, say, "Hey, give me an IMS and z/OS connect stack or a kicks into DB2 stack." And that is all under the covers is going to be powered by Ansible automation. So that really, you know, you can get your system programmers and your talent out of having to do these manual tasks, right. Enable the development community. So they can use things like VS Code and Jenkins and GET Lab, and you'll have this automated CICB pipeline. And again, Ansible under the covers can be there helping to provision those test environments. You know, move the data, you know, along with the application, changes through the pipeline and really just help to support that so that, our clients can do what they need to do. >> You guys got the collections in the hub there, so automation hub, I got to ask you where do you see the future of the automating within z/OS going forward? >> Yeah, so I think, you know one of the areas that we'd like to see go is head more towards this declarative state so that you can you know, have this declarative configuration defined for your Z environment and then have Ansible really with the data and potency right. Be able to, go out and ensure that the environment is always there, and meeting those requirements. You know that's partly a culture change as well which goes along with it, but that's a key area. And then also just, you know, along with that becoming more proactive overall part of, you know, AI ops right. That's happening. And I think Ansible on the automation that we support can become you know, an integral piece of supporting that more intelligent and proactive operational direction that, you know, we're all going. >> Awesome Skyla. Great to talk to you. And so insightful, appreciate it. One final question. I want to ask you a personal question because I've been doing a lot of interviews around skill gaps and cybersecurity, and there's a lot of jobs, more job openings and there are a lot of people. And people are with COVID working at home. People are looking to get new skilled up positions, new opportunities. Again cybersecurity and spaces and event we did and want to, and for us its huge, huge openings. But for people watching who are, you know, resetting getting through this COVID want to come out on the other side there's a lot of online learning tools out there. What skill sets do you think? Cause you brought up this point about modernization and bringing new people and people as a big part of this event and the role of the people in community. What areas do you think people could really double down on? If I wanted to learn a skill. Or an area of coding and business policy or integration services, solution architects, there's a lot of different personas, but what skills can I learn? What's your advice to people out there? >> Yeah sure. I mean on the Z platform overall and skills related to Z, COBOL, right. There's, you know, like two billion lines of COBOL out there in the world. And it's certainly not going away and there's a huge need for skills. And you know, if you've got experience from other platforms, I think bringing that in, right. And really being able to kind of then bridge the two things together right. For the folks that you're working for and the enterprise we're working with you know, we actually have a bunch of education out there. You got to master the mainframe program and even a competition that goes on that's happening now, for folks who are interested in getting started at any stage, whether you're a student or later in your career, but you know learning, you know, learn a lot of those platforms you're going to be able to then have a career for life. >> Yeah. And the scale on the data, this is so much going on. It's super exciting. Thanks for sharing that. Appreciate it. Want to get that plug in there. And of course, IBM, if you learn COBOL you'll have a job forever. I mean, the mainframe's not going away. >> Absolutely. >> Skyla, thank you so much for coming on theCUBE Vice President, for the Z Application Platform and IBM, thanks for coming. Appreciate it. >> Thanks for having me. >> I'm John Furrier your host of theCUBE here for AnsibleFest 2020 Virtual. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, and welcome to this CUBE conversation. We're digging in with Pensando. Talking about the technologies that they're using. And happy to welcome to the program, two of Pensando's technical leaders. We have Krishna Doddapaneni, he's the Vice President of Software. And we have here Pirabhu Raman, he's a Principal Engineer, both with Pensando. Thank you so much for joining us. >> Thank you Stu. >> All right. >> Thank you for having us here >> Krishna, you run the Software Team. So let's start there and talk about really the mission and shortly obviously, bring us through a little bit of architecturally what Pensando was doing. >> To get started, Pensando we are building a platform, which can automate and manage the network storage and security services. So when we talk about software here, it's like the better software as you start from all the way from bootloader, to all the way it goes to microservices controller. So the fundamentally the company is building a domain specific processor called a DSP, that goes on the card called DSC. And that card goes into a server in a PCIe slot. Since we go into a server and we act as a NIC, we have to do drivers for Windows, all the OS' Windows, Linux, ESX and FreeBSD. And on the card itself, the chip itself, there are two fundamental pieces of the chip. One is the P4 pipelines, where we run all our applications, if you can think like in the firewalls, in the virtualization, all security applications. And then there's Arm SoC, which we have to bring up the platform and where we run the control plane and data and management plane so that's one piece of the software. The other big piece of software is called PSM. Which kind of, if you think about it in data center, you don't want to manage, one DSC at a time or one server at a time. We want to manage all thousands of servers, using a single management and control point. And that's where the test for the PSM comes from. >> Yeah, excellent. You talked about a pretty complex solution there. One of the big discussion points in the networking world and I think in general has been really the role of software. I think we all know, it got a little overblown. The discussion of software, does not mean that hardware goes away. I wrote a piece, many years ago, if you look at how hyperscalars do things, how they hyper optimize. They don't just buy the cheapest, most generic thing. they tend to configure things and they just roll it out in massive scale. So your team is well known for, really from a chip standpoint, I think about the three Cisco spin-ins. If you dug underneath the covers, yes there was software, but there was an Async there. So, when I look at what you're doing in Pensando, you've got software and there is a chip, at the end of the day. It looks, the first form factor of this looks like, a network card, the NIC that fits in there. So give us in there some of the some of the challenges of software and there's so much diversity in hardware these days. Everything getting ready for AI and GPUs. And you listed off a bunch of pieces when you were talking about the architecture. So give us that software/hardware dynamic, if you would. >> I mean, if you look at where the industry has been going towards, right, I mean, the Moore's law has been ending and Dennard scale is a big on Dennard scaling. So if you want to set all the network in certain security services on x86, you will be wasting a bunch of x86 cycles. The customer, why does he buy x86? He buys x86 to run his application. Not to run IO or do security for IO or policies for IO. So where we come in is basically, we do this domain specific processor, which will take away all the IO part of it, and the computer, just the compute of the application is left for x86. The rest is all offloaded to what we call Pensando. So NIC is kind of one part of what we do. NIC is how we connect to the server. But what we do inside the card is, firewalls, all the networking functions: SDNs, load balancing in all the storage functions, NVMe virtualization, and encryption of all the packets, data of data at rest and data of data in motion. All these services is what we do in this part. And you know, yes, it's an Async. But if you look at what we do inside, it's not a fixed Async. We did work on the previous spin-ins as you said, with Async, but there's a fundamental difference between that Async can this Async. In those Asyncs for example, there's a hard coded routing table or there's a hard coded ACL table. This Async is a completely programmable. It's more like it's a programmable software that we have domain specific language called P4. We use that P4 to program the Async. So the way I look at it, it's an Async, but it's mostly software driven completely. And from all the way from controllers, to what programs you run on the chip, is completely software driven. >> Excellent. Pirabhu of course, the big announcement here, HPE. You've now got the product. It's becoming generally available this month. We'd watch from the launch of Pensando, obviously, having HPE as not only an investor, but they're an OEM of the product. They've got a huge customer base. Maybe help explain, from the enterprise standpoint, if I'm buying ProLion, where now does, am I going to be thinking about Pensando? What specific use cases? How does this translate to the general and enterprise IP buyer? >> We cover of whole breadth of use cases, at the very basic level, if your use cases or if your company is not ready for all the different features, you could buy it as a basic NIC and start provisioning it, and you will get all the basic network functions. But at the same time in addition to the standard network functions, you will get always on telemetry. Like you will get rich set of metrics, you will get packet capture capabilities, which will help you very much in troubleshooting issues, when they happen, or you can leave them always on as well. So, you can do some of these tap kind of functionalities, which financial services do. And all these things you will get without any impact on the workload performance. Like the customers' application don't see any performance impact when any of these capabilities are turned on. So once this is as a standard network function, but beyond this when you are ready for enforcing policies at the edge or you're ready for enforcing stateful firewalls, distributed firewalling capabilities, connection tracking, some of the other things, like Krishna touched upon NVMe virtualization, there are all sorts of other features you can add on top of. >> Okay, so it sounds like what we're really democratizing some of those cloud services or cloud like services for the network, down to the end device, if I have this right. >> Exactly. >> Maybe if you could, networking, we know, our friends in network. We tend to get very acronym driven, to overlays and underlays and various layers of the stack there. When we talk about innovation, I'd love to hear from both of you, what are some of those kind of key innovations, if you were to highlight just one or two? Pirabhu, maybe you can go first and then Krishna would would love your follow up from that. >> Sure, there are many innovations, but just to highlight a few of them, right. Krishna touched upon P4, but even on the P4, P4 is very much focused on manipulating the packets, packets in and packets out, but we enhanced it so that we can address it in such a way that from memory in-packet out, packet in-memory out. Those kind of capabilities so that we can interface it with the host memory. So those innovations we are taking it to the standard and they are in the process of getting standardized as well. In addition to this, our software stack, we touched upon the always on telemetry capabilities. You could do flow based packet captures, NetFlow, you could get a lot of visibility and troubleshooting information. The management plane in itself, has some of the state of the art capabilities. Like it's distributed, highly available, and it makes it very easy for you to manage thousands of these servers. Krishna, do you want to add something more? >> Yes, the biggest thing of the platform is that when we did underlays and overlays, as you said there, everything was like fixed. So tomorrow, you wake up and come with a new protocol, or you may come up with a new way to do storage, right? Normally, in the hardware world, what happens is, Oh, you have to I have to sell you this new chip. That is not what we are doing. I mean, here, whatever we ship on this Async, you can continue to evolve and continue to innovate, irrespective of changing standards. If NVMe goes from one dot two to one dot three, or you come up with a new encapsulation of VXLAN, you do whatever encapsulations, whatever TLVs you would want to, you don't need to change the hardware. It's more about downloading new firmware, and upgrading the new firmware and you get the new feature. That is that's one of the key innovation. That's why most of the cloud providers like us, that we are not tied to hardware. It's more of software programmable processor that we can keep on adding features in the future. >> So one way to look at it, is like, you get the best of both worlds kind of a thing. You get power and performance of Async, but at the same time you get the flexibility of closer to that of a general purpose processor. >> Yeah, so Krishna, since you own the software piece of thing, help us understand architecturally, how you can deploy something today but be ready for whatever comes in the future. That's always been the challenge is, Gee, maybe if I wait another six months, there'll be another generation something, where I don't want to make sure that I miss some window of opportunity. >> Yeah, so it's a very good question. I mean, basically you can keep enhancing your features with the same performance and power and latency and throughput. But the other important thing is how you upgrade the software. I mean today whenever you have Async. When you have changed the Async, obviously, you have to pull the card out and you put the new card in. Here, when you're talking upgrading software, we can upgrade software while traffic is going through. With very minimal disruption, in the order of sub second. Right, so you can change your protocol, for example, tomorrow, we change from VXLAN to your own innovative protocol, you can upgrade that without disrupting any existing network or storage IO. I mean, that's where the power of the platform is very useful. And if you look at it today, where cloud providers are going right, and the cloud providers, you don't want to, because there are customers who are using that server, and they're deploying their application, they don't want to disturb that application, just because you decided to do some new innovative feature. The platform capability is that you could upgrade it, and you can change your mind sometime in the future. But whatever existing traffic is there, the traffic will continue to flow and not disrupt your app. >> All right, great. Well, you're talking about clouds one of the things we look at is multi cloud and multi vendor. Pirabhu, we've got the announcement with HPE now, ProLion and some of their other platforms. Tell us how much work will it be for you to support things like Dell servers or I think your team's quite familiar with the Cisco UCS platform. Two pieces on that number one: how easy or hard is it to do that integration? And from an architectural design? Does a customer need to be homogeneous from their environment or is whatever cloud or server platform they're on independent, and we should be able to work across those? >> Yeah, first off, I should start with thanking HPE. They have been a great partner and they have been quick to recognize the synergy and the potential of the synergy. And they have been very helpful towards this integration journey. And the way we see it, a lot of the work has already been done in terms of finding out the integration issues with HPE. And we will build upon this integration work that has been done so that we can quickly integrate with other manufacturers like Dell and Cisco. We definitely want to integrate with other server manufacturers as well, because that is in the interest of our customers, who want to consume Pensando in a heterogenous fashion, not just from one server manufacturer. >> Just want to add one thing to what Pirabhu's saying. Basically, the way we think about it is that, there's x86 and then the all the IO, the infrastructure services, right. So for us, as long as you get power from the server, and you can get packets and IO across the PCIe bus, we are kind of, we want to make it a uniform layer. So the Pensando, if you think about it, is a layer that can work across servers, and could work inside the public cloud and when we have, one of our customers using this in hybrid cloud. So we want to be the base where we can do all the storage network and security services, irrespective of the server and where the server is placed. Whether it's placed in the call log, it's placed in the enterprise data center, or it's placed in the public cloud. >> All right, so I guess Krishna, you said first x86. Down the road, is there opportunity to go beyond Intel processors? >> Yes. I mean, we already support AMD, which is another form of x86. But other architecture doesn't prevent us from any servers. As long as you follow the PCIe standard, we should, it's more of a testing matrix issue. It's not about support of any other OS, we should be able to support it. And initially, we also tested once on PowerPC. So any kind of CPU architecture, we should be able to support. >> Okay, so walk me up the application stack a little bit though. Things like virtualization, containerization. There's the question of does it work but does it optimize? Any of us live through those waves of, Oh, okay, well it kind of worked, but then there was a lot of time to make things like the origin networking work well in virtualization and then in containerization. So how about your solution? >> I mean you should look at, a good example is AWS, like what AWS does with Nitro. So on Nitro, you do EBS, you do security, and you do VPC. In all the services is effectively, we think about it, all of those can be encapsulated in one DSC card. And obviously, when it comes to this kind of implementation on one card, right, the first question you would ask what happens to the noisy neighbor? So we have the right QOS mechanisms to make sure all the services go through the same card, at the same time giving guarantees to the customer that (mumbles) especially in the multi-tenant environment, whatever you're doing on one VPC will not affect the other VPC. And the advantage of the platform that what we have is very highly scalable and highly performing. Scale will not be the issue. I mean, if you look at existing platforms, even if you look at the cloud, because when you're doing this product, obviously, we'll do benchmarking with the cloud and enterprises. With respect to scale, performance and latency, we did the measurements and we are order of magnitude compared to (sneezes) given the existing clouds and currently whatever enterprise customers have. >> Excellent, so Pirabhu, I'm curious, from the enterprise standpoint, are there certain applications, I think about like, from an analytic standpoint, Splunk is so heavily involved in data that might be a natural fit or other things where it might not be fully tested out with anything kind of that ISV world that we need to think about. >> So if we're talking in terms of partner ecosystems, our enterprise customers do use many of the other products as well. And we are trying to integrate with other products so that we can get the maximum value. So if you look at it, you could get rich metrics and visualization capabilities from our product, which can be very helpful for the partner products because they don't have to install an agent and they can get the same capability across bare metal virtual stack as well as containers. So we are integrating with various partners including some CMDB configuration management database products, as well as data analytics or network traffic analytics products. Krishna, do you want to add anything? >> Yeah, so I think it's just not the the analytics products. We're also integrating with VMware. Because right now VMware is a computer orchestrated and we want to be the network policy orchestrator. In the future, we want to integrate with Kubernetes and OpenShift. So we want to add integration so that our platform capability can be easily consumable irrespective of what kind of workload you use or what kind of traffic analytics tool you use or what kind of data link that you use in your enterprise data center. >> Excellent, I think that's a good view forward as to where some of the work is going on the future integration. Krishna and Pirabhu, thank you so much for joining us. Great to catch up. >> Thank you Stu. >> Thanks for having us. >> All right. I'm Stu Miniman. Thank you for watching theCUBE. (gentle music)

(uplifting music) >> Hello and welcome to this special CUBE Conversation. I'm John Furrier, here in Palo Alto at theCUBE studios for a special conversation with Tarun Thaker, general manager of Datos IO, part of Rubrik. Last time I interviewed you, you were the CEO. You guys got acquired, congratulations. >> Thank you, thank you, John. Very happy to be here. >> How'd that go? How'd the acquisition go? >> Excellent, excellent. I Met Bipul about August of last year and it was sort of perfect marriage waiting to happen. We were both going after the broader irresistible opportunity of data management. >> I've enjoyed our previous conversations because you guys were a hot, growing start up and then you look at Rubrik, if you look at the success that they've been having, just the growth in data protection, the growth in cloud, you guys were on with from the beginning with Datos. Now you got a management team, you got all this growth, it is pretty fun to watch and I'll see you locally in Palo Alto so it's been interesting to see you guys. Huge growth opportunity. Cloud people are realizing that this is not a side decision. >> No. >> It's got to be done centrally. The customers are re architecting to be cloud native. The on premises, we saw big industry movements happening with Amazon at VMworld announcing RDS on VMware on premises. >> Correct. >> Which validates that the enterprises want to have a cloud operation, both on premise. >> Yes. >> And in cloud. How has this shaped you guys? You have big news, but this is a big trend. >> No, absolutely. John, I think you rightly said, the pace of innovation at Rubrik and the pace of market adoption is beyond everybody's imagination, right? When I said that it was sort of a marriage waiting to be happened, is if you look at the data management tam it's close to 50 billion dollars, right? And you need to build a portfolio of products, right? You need to sort of think about the classical data center applications because on prem is still there and on premises is still a big part of spending. But if you look at where enterprises are racing to the cloud. They're racing given digital transformation. They're racing customer 360 experience. Every organization, whether it be financials, maybe healthcare, maybe commerce, wants to get closer to the end customers, right? And if you look underneath that macro trend, it's all this cloud native space. Whether it be Kubernetes and Docker based containers or it could be RDS which is natively built in the cloud or it could be, hey I want to now run Oracle in the cloud, right? Once you start thinking of this re architecting stack being built in the cloud, enterprises will not leap and spend those top dollars that they spend on prem if they don't get a true, durable data management stack. >> And one of the things I really was impressed when you Datos, now it's part of Rubrik, is you were cloud up and down the stack. You were early on cloud, you guys thought like cloud native. Your operations was very agile. >> Thank you. >> Everything about you, beyond the product, was cloud. This is a critical success now for companies. They have to not just do cloud with product. >> Correct. >> Their operational impact has to be adjusted, how they do business, the supply chains, the value chains. These things are changing. >> The licensing, the pricing. >> This is the new model. >> Yes. >> This is where the data comes in. This is where the support comes in. You guys have some hard news, Datos IO 3.0. What's the big news? >> John, as you said, we've been very squarely focused on what we called the NoSQL big data market, right? We, if you look at, you know you talked about Amazon RDS, if you go to the Amazon business, Amazon database business is about four billon dollars today, right? Just think about that. If you take a guess on number one data base in Amazon native, it's not Oracle, it's MySQL. Number two, it's not SQL Server, it's Mongo DB. So if you look at the cloud native stack, we made this observation four years ago, as you said, that underneath this was all NoSQL. We really found that blue ocean, as we call it, the green field opportunity and go build the next Veritas for that space. You know, with 3.0, Bipul likes to call it in accordance to his leadership, consolidate your gains. Once you find an island full of gold coins, you don't leave that island. (laughing) You go double down, triple down, right? You don't want to distract your focus so 3.0 is all about us focusing. Really sort of the announcements are rooted around three vectors, as we call it. Number one, if you look at why Rubrik was so successful, you know you went into a pretty gorilla market of backup but why Rubrik has been successful at the heart is this ease of use and simplicity. And we wanted to bring that culture into, not only Datos team, but also into our product, right? So that was simplicity. Large scale distributive systems are difficult to deploy and manage so that was the first part. Second part was all about, you know, if you look at Mongo. Mongo has gone from zero to four billion dollars in less than 10 years. Every Fortune 2000, 500, Global 2000 customer is using Mongo in some critical way. >> Why is that? I mean people were always, personally we love Mongo DB, but people were predicting their demise every year. "Oh, it's never going to scale," I've heard people say and again, this is the competition. >> Correct. >> We know who they are. But why is the success there? Obviously NoSQL and unstructured data's big tsunami and there's more data coming in than ever before. Why are they successful? >> Excellent. That's why I enjoy being here, you go to the why not the what and the how. And the why is rooted for why Mongo DB's so successful, is application developers. We've all read this book, developers are the king makers of the IT, not your IT and storage admins? And Mongo found that niche, that if I can go build a database which is easier for an application developer, I will build a company. And that was the trend they built the company around. Fast forward, it's stock that is trading at $80 a piece. >> Yeah. >> To four billion plus in market. >> Yeah and I think the other thing I would just add, just riffing on that, is that cloud helps. Because where Mongo DB horizontally scales-- >> Elastic. >> The old critics were saying, thinking vertical scale. >> Correct. >> Cloud really helps that. >> Absolutely, absolutely. Cloud is our elastic resources, right? You turn it out and you turn it down. What we found in the first, as you know in the last two to three years journey of 1.0, 2.0, that we were having a great reception with Mongo DB deployments and again, consolidate your gains towards Mongo so that was the second vector, making Datos get scale out for Mongo DB deployments. Number three, which is really my most favorite was really around multi cloud is here, right? No enterprise is going to really, bet only on one form of Amazon or one form of Google Cloud, they're going to bet it across these multiple clouds, right? We were always on Amazon, Google. We now announced Datos natively available on Amazon, so now if you have enterprise customers doing NoSQL applications in Amazon, you can protect that data natively to the cloud, being the Azure cloud. >> So which clouds are you guys supporting now with 3.0? Can you just give the list? >> Yep, yep. We supported Amazon from very early days, AWS. Majority of customers are on Amazon. Number two is Google Cloud, we have a great relationship with Google Cloud team, very entrepreneurial people also. And number three's Azure. The fourth, which is sort of a hidden Trojan horse is Oracle Cloud. We also announced Datos on Oracle Cloud. Why, you may ask? Because if you look at, again, NoSQL and data stacks in Cassandra, we saw a very healthy ecosystem building for Cassandra and Oracle Cloud, for obvious reasons. It was very good for us to follow that tailwind. >> Interestingly I was just at Oracle yesterday for a briefing, and I'm not going to reveal any confidential information, because it's all on the record. They're heavily getting to cloud native. They have to. >> They have to. There's no choice. They cannot be like tiptoeing, they have to go all in. >> And microservices are a big thing. This is something that you guys now have focus on. Talk about the microservices. How does that fit in? Because you look at Kubernetes, Kubernetes is becoming that kind of TCPIP moment for the cloud world or TCPIP powered networked and created inter working. The inter cloud or the multi cloud relationship? >> Correct, all the cloud native. >> Kubernetes is becoming that core catalyst. Got containers on one side, service meshes on the other. This brings in the data equation, stateful applications, stateless applications, this is going to change the game for developers. >> Absolutely. >> Actually now you have a backup equation, how do you know what to back up? >> Correct. >> What's the data? >> Correct. >> What's the impact? >> Yeah. So the announcement that we announced, just to cover that quickly, is we were seeing that trend. If you look at these developers or these DBAs or data base admins who are going to the cloud and racing to the cloud? They're not deploying OVA files. They're not deploying, as you said, IP network files, right? They want to deploy these as containerized applications. So running Mongo as a Docker container or Cassandra as a Docker container or Couch as a Docker container and you cannot go to them as a data management product as an age old mechanism of various bits and bytes. So we announced two things, Datos is now available as a Docker container, so you can just get a Docker file and run your way. And number two is we can also protect your NoSQL applications that are Dockerized or that are containerized, right? And that's really our first step into what you're seeing with Amazon EKS, right? Elastic Kubernetes Service. If you saw NetApp announced yesterday the acquisition of Kubernetes as a service, right? And so our next step, now that we've enabled Docker container of Datos, is to how do we bring Kubernetes as a service on top of Docker because Docker to deploy, orchestrate, manage that by itself is really still a challenge. >> Yeah containers is the stepping stone to orchestration. >> Correct, correct. >> You need Kubernetes to orchestrate the containers. >> That is correct, that is correct. >> Alright so summarize the announcements. If you had to boil this down, what's the 3.0? >> So if I were to sort come back and give you sort of the headline message, it is really our release to go crack open into the Fortune 500, Global 2000 enterprises. So if you remember, 60% of our customers are already what we call it internally, R2K, global 2000 customers so Datos, 60% of our customers who are large Fortune 500 customers. >> They're running mission critical? >> They're mission critical, no support applications. >> So you're supporting mission critical applications? >> Absolutely, some of our biggest customers, ACL Worldwide, one of the largest financial leading organization. Home Depot, that we have talked about in the past, right? Palo Alto Networks, the worlds largest cloud security networking company, right? If you look at these organizations they are running cloud native applications today. And so this release is really our double down into cracking open the Global 2000 enterprises and really staying focused at that market. >> And multi cloud is critical for you guys? >> Oh, absolutely. Any enterprise software company without, especially a data company, right? At the end of the day, it's all about data. >> Tarun, talk about why multi cloud, at some point. I'd love to get your expert opinion on this because you know Kubernetes, you see what's coming around the corner with service meshes and all this cool stuff because it impacts the infrastructure. With multi cloud, certainly what everyone's asking about, hybrid and multi cloud. Why is multi cloud important? What's the impact of multi cloud? >> Great question, John. You know, I think it's rooted in sort of three key reasons, right? Number one, if you look at what enterprises did back in the day, right history repeats itself, right? They never betted only on IBM servers. They bought Dell servers, they bought HP servers. Never anybody betted only on ESX as the virtual hypervisor platform. They betted on KBM and others, right? Similarly if you look at these enterprises, the ones that we talked about, Palo Alto Networks, they're going to run some of the applications natively on Amazon but they want DR in Google Cloud so think about a business use case being across clouds. So that's the one, right? I want to run some applications in Amazon because of elasticity, ease of use, orchestration but I want to keep my DR in a different site but I don't want to a colo, right? I want to do another cloud, so that's one. Number two is some of your application developers are, you know, in different regions, right? You want to enable sort of different cloud sites for them, right? So it's just locality, would be more of a reason and number three which is actually, probably I think the most important, is if you look at Amazon and what they have done with the book business, what they've done with others, e-commerce organizations like eBay, like Home Depot, like Foot Locker, they're very wary of betting the farm on a retail organization. Fundamentally Amazon is a retail organization, right? So they will go back, their use cases on Google cloud, they'll go back their use cases on Azure cloud so it's like vertical. Which vertical is prone or more applicable to a particular cloud, if that make sense? >> And so having multi vendors been around for a while in the enterprise, so multi vendor just translates to multi cloud? >> There you go, yes, yes. >> How about what's goin' on with you guys? Next week is Microsoft Ignite, their big cloud show from Microsoft. You guys have a relationship with them. In November you announced a partnership. >> Correct. >> Rubrik and you guys are doing that, so what's going on with them? You're co-selling together? Are they joint developing? What's the update? >> Ignite, so Microsoft, I'll give an update on Microsoft and then Ignite. As you know, John Thompson is on our board and you know fundamentally the product that we have built, Azure team, working with them, we have come to realize that it's a great product to bring data to the cloud. >> Right. >> And we have a very good, strong product relationship with Microsoft, we have a co-sell meaning their reps can sell Rubrik and get quota retirement, that's massive, right? Think for both the companies, right? And companies don't make those decisions, John, lightly. Those decisions are made very strictly. >> Quota relief is great. >> It's huge. >> It's a sales force for you guys. >> Exactly, yep. For us, specifically on Ignite, with this release we announced Azure. We worked very closely with the Azure storage division. When we pitched them, hey we are now, Datos is available on Azure, the respect that we got was amazing. We had a Microsoft quote in our press release. At Ignite next week we have dedicated sessions talking about NoSQL back ups on Microsoft, natively being protected on Azure Cloud. It's good for them, good for us, huge announcement next week. >> That's good. You guys have done the work in the cloud and it's interesting, early cloud adopters get some dividends on that. Just to summarize the chat here, if you had to talk to customer who's watching or interested and sees all this competition out there, a lot of noise in the industry, how would you summarize your value proposition? What's the value that you're bringing to the table? How do you guys compete on that value? Why Datos? >> Perfect, thank you. It's, again, simple order in one to three. Number one, we're helping you accelerate journey to the cloud. Right, you want to go the cloud, we understand Fortune 500 enterprises want to race to the cloud. You don't want to race without protection, without data management. It's your data, it needs to be in your control so that's one. We're helping you race to the cloud, yet keeping your data in your hands. Number two, you are buying a truly cloud native software not a software that was built 20 years ago and shrink wrapped into cloud. This is a product built into technologies which are cloud native, right? Elasticity, you can scale up Datos, you can scale down Datos, just like Amazon resources so you're truly buying an elastic technologies rooted data management product. And number three, you know if you really look at cloud, cloud to you as a customer is all about, hey can I build, not lift and shift, cloud native. And you're adopting these new technologies, you don't want to not think about protection, management, DR, those critical business use cases. >> And thinking differently about cloud operations is critical. Great to see you Tarun. Thanks for coming on and sharing the news on Datos 3.0, appreciate it. I'm John Furrier, here in Palo Alto Studios with the general manager of Datos IO, now part of Rubrik, formerly the CEO of Datos, Tarun Thaker, thanks for watching. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching theCUBE. (uplifting music)

(cheerful music) >> Announcer: Live from Los Angeles, it's theCUBE! Covering Open Source Summit North America 2017. Brought to you by The Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Welcome back, and we're live here in Los Angeles. This is theCUBE's special coverage of Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Two days of wall-to-wall coverage. Our next guest, Ed Warnicke, who is a distinguished consulting engineer with Cisco. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Glad to be here! >> Thanks for coming on. Love to get into it. We love infrastructure as code. We love the cloud developers. The young generation loves it. Making things easy to use all sounds great, but there's still work to get done. The networking... So what's going on here at the Open Source? So this is the big tent event where there's a lot of cross-pollination around projects. Obviously the networking side, you guys at Cisco are doing your share. Give us the update. Networking is still a lot more work to be done. It's a very strategic part of the equation. Certainly making it easier up above makes it programmable. >> Yeah, you have to make the networking invisible even to the DevOps layer. There are certain things that you need from the network. They need isolation and reachability. They need service discovery and service routing. But they don't want to have to think about it. They don't want to be burdened with understanding the nitty gritty details. They don't want to know what subnet they're on, they don't want to have to worry about ACL's, they don't want to think about all of that. And the truth is, there's a lot of work that goes into making the network invisible and ubiquitous for people. And in particular, one of the challenges that we see arising as the world moves more cloud-native, as the microservices get smaller, as the shift happens toward serverless, as Kubernetes is coming on with containers, is that the network is really becoming the run time. And that run time has the need to scale and perform like it never has before. So the number of microservices you'd like to put on a server keeps going up, and that means you need to be able to actually handle that. The amount of traffic that people want to push through them continues to go up. So your performance has to keep up. And that brings a lot of distinct challenges, particularly when you're trying to achieve those in systems that were designed for a world where you had maybe two NIC's on the box, where you weren't really thinking when the original infrastructure was built about the fact that you were actually going to have to do a hell of a lot of routing inside the server because you now have currently hundreds, but hopefully someday thousands and tens of thousands of microservices running there. >> Ed, you know, I think when we've been talking about the last 15 or 20 years or so, I need to move faster with my deployment. It always seemed that networking was the thing that held everything up. It's like, okay, wait, when I virtualized, everything's great and everything, and I can just spit up a VM and do that. Oh, but I need to wait for the network to be provisioned. What are the things you've been working on, what open source projects? There's a lot of them out there helping us to really help that overall agility of work today. >> Absolutely. So one of the things I'm deeply involved in right now is a project called FD.io, usually pronounced Fido, because it's cute. And it means we can give away puppies at conferences. It's great. What FD.io is doing, is we have this core technology called VPP that gives you incredibly performant, incredibly scalable networking purely in user space. Which means from a developer velocity point of view, we can have new features every three months. From an extensibility point of view, you can bring new network features as separate plugins you drop as .so's into a plugin directory instead of having to wait for the kernel to rev on your server. And the revving process is also substantially less invasive. So if you need to take a microservice network as a user space thing and rev it, it's a restart of a process. You're talking microseconds, not 15-minute reboot cycles. You're talking levels of disruption where you don't lose your TCP state, where you don't lose any of those things. And that's really crucial to having the kind of agility that you want in the network. And when I talk about performance and scalability, I'm not kidding. So one of the things we recently clocked out with VPP was being able to route a terabyte per second of traffic with millions of routes in the forwarding tables on commodity servers with no hardware existence at all. And the workloads are starting to grow in that direction. It's going to take them a while to catch up, but to your point about the network being the long pull, we want to be far ahead of that curve so it's not the long pull anymore. So you can achieve the agility that you need in DevOps and move innovative products forward. >> Ed, one of the things that comes up all the time, I wanted to get your reaction to this because you're an important part of it, is developers say, look, I love DevOps. And even ops guys are saying, we want to promote DevOps, so there's a mind meld there if you will. But then what they don't want is a black box. They want to see debugging, and they want to have ease of manageability. So I don't mind pushing dev, if I'm an ops guy, send the dev down, but they need a path of visibility. They need to have access to debug fast. Get access to some of those things. What do you see as gates if you will, that we got to get through to make that seamless and clean right now? Obviously Kubernetes, lot of stuff going on with orchestration. And containers are providing a path. But still, the complaint and nervousness is okay, you can touch and program the infrastructure, but if something happens, you're going to be reactive. >> Yeah, that gets exactly to the point. Because the more invisible the network is, the more visibility you need when things go wrong. And for general operational use. And one of the cool things that's happening in FD.io around that, is number one, it's industrial scale. So you have all sorts of counters and telemetry information that you need from an historical point of view in networks to be able to figure out what's going on. But beyond that, there's a whole lot of innovation that's been happening in the network space that has yet to trickle down all the way to the server edge. A really classic example on the visibility front has to do with in-band iOAM. So we now have the technology, and this is present today in VPP, to be able to say, hey, I would like an in-band trace on the flow though the network of this flow for this customer who's giving me a complaint, where I can see hop by hop through the network including in the edge where VPP is, what's the latency between hops? What path it actually passed through. And there's even a feature there where you could say, at each hop, please send the packet capture at that hop to a third-party point where I can collect it so I can look at it in something like Wireshark. So you can look in Wireshark and say, okay I see where this went into that node and came out that node this way. Node by node by node. I don't know how much more visibility than that is actually physically possible. And that's one of the kinds of things that the velocity of features that you have in VPP has made very possible. That's the kind of thing that would take a long time to work into the traditional development line for networking. >> What's the Cisco internal vibe right now? Because we covered the DevNet Create event that Susie Wee put on, which was kind of like a cloud-native cool event. Kind of grassroots, kind of guerrilla. I love the mojo there. But then you've got the DevNet community at Cisco, which is a robust killer developer community on the Cisco side. How are those worlds coming together? I can imagine that the appetite for the Cisco DevNet teams, the DevNet developer community, is looking at cloud-native as an opportunity. Can you share some insight into what's the sentiment, what's the community vibe, what's going on? For folks that just got to run the networks, I mean this is serious stuff. In the past, they've been like, cloud-native, when you're ready we'll get there. But now there seems to be an onboarding of cloud-native. Talk about the dynamic. >> There has to be, because cloud-native won't wait. And there's a lot of things that the network can do to help you as the run time. The iOAM example is one, but there are a ton more. Again, cloud-native won't wait. They will find a way, and so you have to be able to bring those features at the pace at which cloud-native proceeds. You can't do it on six-month product cycles. You can't do it on 12-month product cycles. You have to be able to respond point by point as things more forward. A good example of this is a lot of the stuff that's happening with server meshes in Insteon. Which is coming really fast. Not quite here, but coming really fast. And for that, the real question is, what can the network do for DevOps? Because there's a synergistic relationship between DevOps and NetOps. >> So you were saying... Just to try to get at the point. So yes, are you seeing that the DevNet community is saying hey we love this stuff? Because they're smart, they know how to adapt. Moving from networks to DevOps. To me it seems like they're connecting the dots. You share some-- Are they, yes no maybe? >> They're absolutely connecting the dots, but there's a whole pipeline with all of this. And DevNet is at the short pointy end where it touches the DevOps people. But to get there, there's a lot of things that have to do with identifying what are the real needs, getting the code written to actually do it, figuring out the proper innovations, engaging with open source communities like Kubernetes so that they're utilized. And by the time you get to DevNet, now we're at the point where you can explain them to DevOps, where they can use them really cleanly. One of the other things is, you want it to come through transparently. Because people want to be able to pick their Kubernetes Helm charts off the web, take the collection of containers for the parts of their application they don't want to have to think about, at least right now, and have it work. So you have to make sure you're supporting all the stuff that's there, and you have to work to be able to take advantage of those new features in the existing API's. Or better yet, just have the results of those API's get better without having to think about new features. >> So they're in great shape. It's not a collision, it's not friction. >> No, no no. >> It's pretty much synergistic. Network guys get the DevOps equation. >> No, we get the DevOps equation, we get the need. There is a learning process for both sides. We deeply need each other. Applications without networking are completely uninteresting. And this is even more true in microservices where it's becoming the run time for the network. On the same side, networks without applications are completely uninteresting because there's no one to talk. And what's fascinating to me is how many of the same problems get described in different language and so we'll talk past each other. So DevOps people will talk about service discovery and service routing. And what they're really saying is, I want a thing, I don't want to have to think about how to get to it. On the network side, for 15 years now, we've been talking about identifier/locator separation. Basically the having an IP address for the thing you want, and having the ability to transparently map that to the location where that thing is without having to... It's the classic renumber your network problem. They're at a very fundamental level the same problem. But it's a different language. >> The game is still the same. There's some language nuances that I think I see some synergies. I see people getting it. It's like learning two languages. Okay, the worlds come together. It's not a collision. But the interesting thing is networking has always been enabling opportunity. This is a fundamental nuance. If you can get this right, it's invisible, as you said. That's the end game. >> Absolutely. That's really what you're looking for. You want invisibility in the normal mode, and you want total transparency when something has to be debugged. The classic example with networks is, when there's a network problem it's almost never the network. It's almost always some little niggle of configuration that went wrong along the way. And so you need that transparency to be able to figure out okay, what's the point where things broke? Or what's the point where things are running suboptimally? Or am I getting the level of service that I need? Am I getting the latency I need, and so forth. And there's been a tendency in the past to shorthand many of those things with networking concepts that are completely meaningless to the underlying problem. People will look at subnets, and say for the same subnet, we should have low latency. Bullshit. I mean basically, if you're on the same subnet, the guy could be on the other end of the WAN in the modern era with L2 overlays. So if you want latency, you should be able to ask for a particular latency guarantee. >> It felt to me that it took the networking community a while to fix things when it came to virtualization. (Ed laughs) but the punch line is, when it comes to containers, and what's happening at Kubernetes, it feels like the networking community is rallying a lot faster and getting ahead of it. So what's different this time? You've got kind of that historical view on it. Are we doing better as an industry now, and why is it? >> So a couple of things. The Kubernetes guys have done a really nice job of laying out their networking API's. They didn't get bogged down in the internal guts of the network that no DevOps guy ever wants to have to see. They got really to the heart of the matter. So if you look at the guarantees that you have in Kubernetes, what is it? Every pod can talk to every other pod at L3. So L2 isn't even in the picture. Which is beautiful, because in the cloud, you need to worry about subnets like you need a hole in the head. Then if you want isolation, you specify a network policy. And you don't talk about IP addresses when you do that. You talk about selectors on labels for pods, which is a beautiful way to go about it. Because you're talking about things you actually care about. And then with services, you're really talking about how do I discover the service I want so I never have to figure out a pod IP? The system does it for me. And there are gaps in terms of there being things that people are going to be able to need to do that are not completely specified on those API's yet. But the things they've covered have been covered so well, and they're being defended so thoroughly, that it's actually making it easier because we can't come in and introduce concepts that harm DevOps. We're forced to work in a paradigm that serves it. >> Okay, great. So this'll be easy, so we'll be ready to tackle serverless. What's that going to mean for the network? >> Serverless gets to be even more interesting because the level of agility that you want in your network goes up. Because you can imagine something in serverless where you don't even want to start a pod until someone has made a request. So there's an L7 piece that has to be dealt with but then you have to worry about the efficiency of how do you actually move that TCP session to the actual instance that's come up for serverless for that thing, and how do you move it to the next thing? Because you're working at an L7, where from the client's point of view, they think it's all the same server, but it's actually been vulcanized across all these microservices. And so you have to find an efficient way of making that transparent that minimizes the degree to which you have to hairpin through things all over the cluster because that just introduces more latency, less throughput, more load on the cluster. You've got to be able to avoid that. And so, by being able to bring sophisticated features quickly to the data plain with something like FD.io and VPP, you can actually start peeling those problems off progressively as serverless matures. Because the truth of the matter is, no one really knows what those things are going to look like. We all like to believe we do, but you're going to find new problems as you go. It's the unknown unknowns that require the velocity. >> So it sounds like you're excited about serverless, though. >> Ed: Usually, yes, definitely. >> So I love serverless too, and I always talk about it. So what is in your opinion the confusion? There are some people who are like, oh it's bullshit. I don't think it is personally. I think it's nirvana. I think it's what people want, what most developers want. There's a server behind it. It's not serverless per se. It's just from a developer standpoint, you don't have to provision hardware. >> Or containers, or VM's, or any of that. >> I personally think it's a good thing. Is it just a better naming convention? Give the people, what's the nuance? Why are people confused? >> I think it's much more fundamental than just the naming convention. Because historically, if you look at the virtualization of workloads, every movement we've had to date has been about some workload run time technology. VM's were about virtual machines. Containers are about containers to run technology. When you get to microservices and serverless, we've made the leap from talking about the underlying technology that most developers don't care about to talking about the philosophy that they do. >> Their run time is their app. Their run time assembly is their code sandwich, not to say the network. >> Just as in serverless, I don't think anyone doubts that the first run of serverless is going to be built on containers. But the philosophy is completely divorced for them. So I'll give you an example. One of the things that we have in VPP is we have an ultra high performance, ultra high scalability userspace TCP stack. We're talking the kind of thing that can trivially handle ten million simultaneous connections with 200,000 new connections coming in every second. And right now, you can scope that to an isolation scope of a container. But there's no reason, with the technology we have, you can't scope it all the way down to a process. So you control the network access at the level of a process. So there's a lot of headroom to go even smaller than containers, even lighter weight than containers. But the serverless philosophy changes not a wit as you have that improvement come in. >> That's beautiful. Ed, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. We really appreciate your perspective. I'd like you to get one final word in to end the segment. Describe what's happening here because the OS Summit, or the Open Source Summit, is the first of its kind, a big tent event. What's your take on it? What's the purpose of the event? What's your experience? Share with the folks who aren't here what this event is all about. >> It's really exciting, because as much as we love The Linux Foundation, and as much as we've all enjoyed things like LinuxCon in the past, the truth is, for years it's been bleeding beyond just Linux. I don't see the OS Summit so much as a shift in focus, as a recognition of what's developed. Last year we had the Open Source Summit here. We just called it LinuxCon. The year before we had the Open Source Summit here. We just called it LinuxCon. And so what's really happening is, we're recognizing what is. There's actually no new creation happening here. It's the recognition of what's evolved. >> And that is open source as a tier one reality that goes way beyond Linux, which is by the way super valuable at the kernel. >> Ed: Oh, we all love Linux. >> All Linux apps... The only apps are Linux apps. But it's a bigger thing. The growth and scale that's coming is unprecedented. I think a lot of people still are pitching themselves, Stu and I were commenting, that what's coming is going to change the face of software development for generations to come. There's an exponential scale of software libraries coming on board. Up to 400 million was forecast by 2026? >> That sounds conservative to me. (laughs) >> You think so? Well, I mean, just to get the scale. So there's going to be some leadership opportunities for the community, in my opinion. >> Absolutely. And this is where the Open Source Summit actually... I mean, words matter because they shape the way we think about things. So where I think the shift to the Open Source Summit has huge value is that it starts to shift the thinking into this broader space. It's not just a recognition of what's happened. It's a new load of software here for the community. >> This is not a marking then, it's a recognition of what's actually happening. I love that quote. Open Source Summit, brilliant move by The Linux Foundation. Create a big tent event for cross-pollination, sharing of ideas. This is the ethos of open source. Ed, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. This is theCUBE with live coverage from the Open Source Summit in North America, formerly LinuxCon and all the other great events here in Los Angeles. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. More live coverage after this short break. 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>> Announcer: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE covering OpenStack Summit 2017. Brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat, and additional ecosystem support. >> And we're back. I'm Stu Miniman with my cohost, John Troyer, getting to the end of day two of three days of coverage here at the OpenStack Summit in Boston. Happy to welcome the program Sujal Das, who is the chief marketing and strategy officer at Netronome. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you. >> Alright, so we're getting through it, you know, really John and I have been digging into, you know, really where OpenStack is, talking to real people, deploying real clouds, where it fits into the multi cloud world. You know, networking is one of those things that took a little while to kind of bake out. Seems like every year we talk about Neutron and all the pieces that are there. But talk to us, Netronome, we know you guys make SmartNICs. You've got obviously some hardware involved when I hear a NIC, and you've got software. What's your involvement in OpenStack and what sort of things are you doing here at the show? >> Absolutely, thanks, Stu. So, we do SmartNIC platforms, so that includes both hardware and software that can be used in commercial office house servers. So with respect to OpenStack, I think the whole idea of STN with OpenStack is centered around the data plane that runs on the server, things such as the Open vSwitch, or Virtual Router, and they're evolving new data planes coming into the market. So we offload and accelerate the data plane in our SmartNICs, because the SmartNICs are programmable, we can evolve the feature set very quickly. So in fact, we have software releases that come out every six months that keep up to speed with OpenStack releases and Open vSwitches. So that's what we do in terms of providing a higher performance OpenStack environment so to say. >> Yeah, so I spent a good part of my career working on that part of the stack, if you will, and the balance is always like, right, what do you build into the hardware? Do I have accelerators? Is this the software that does, you know, usually in the short term hardware can take it care of it, but in the long term you follow the, you know, just development cycles, software tends to win in terms, so, you know. Where are we with where functionality is, what differentiates what you offer compared to others in the market? >> Absolutely. So we see a significant trend in terms of the role of a coprocessor to the x86 or evolving ARM-based servers, right, and the workloads are shifting rapidly. You know, with the need for higher performance, more efficiency in the server, you need coprocessors. So we make, essentially, coprocessors that accelerate networking. And that sits next to an x86 on a SmartNIC. The important differentiation we have is that we are able to pack a lot of cores on a very small form factor hardware device. As many as 120 cores that are optimized for networking. And by able to do that, we're able to deliver very high performance at the lowest cost and power. >> Can you speak to us, just, you know, what's the use case for that? You know, we talk about scale and performance. Who are your primary customers for this? Is this kind of broad spectrum, or, you know, certain industries or use cases that pop out. >> Sure, so we have three core market segments that we go after, right? One is the innovene construction market, where we see a lot of OpenStack use, for example. We also have the traditional cloud data center providers who are looking at accelerating even SmartNICs. And lastly the security market, that's kind of been our legacy market that we have grown up with. With security kind of moving away from appliances to more distributed security, those are our key three market segments that we go after. >> The irony is, in this world of cloud, hardware still matters, right? Not only does hardware, like, you're packing a huger number of cores into a NIC, so that hardware matters. But, one of the reasons that it matters now is because of the rise of this latest generation of solid-state storage, right? People are driving more and more IO. Do you see, what are the trends that you're seeing in terms of storage IO and IO in general in the data center? >> Absolutely. So I think the large data centers of the world, they showed the way in terms of how to do storage, especially with SSDs, what they call disaggregated storage, essentially being able to use the storage on each server and being able to aggregate those together into a pool of storage resources and its being called hyperconverged. I think companies like Nutanix have found a lot of success in that market. What I believe is going to happen in the next phase is hyperconvergence 2.0 where we're going to go beyond security, which essentially addressed TCO and being able to do more with less, but the next level would be hyperconvergence around security where you'd have distributed security in all servers and also telemetry. So basically your storage appliance is going away with hyperconvergence 1.0, but with the next generation of hyperconvergence we'd see the secured appliances and the monitoring appliances sort of going away and becoming all integrated in the server infrastructure to allow for better service levels and scalability. >> So what's the relationship between distributed security and then the need for more bandwidth at the back plane? >> Absolutely. So when you move security into the server, the processing requirements in the server goes up. And typically with all security processing, it's a lot of what's called flow processing or match-action processing. And those are typically not suitable for a general purpose server like the ARM or the x86, but that's where you need specialized coprocessors, kind of like the world of GPUs doing well in the artificial intelligence applications. I think the same example here. When you have security, telemetry, et cetera being done in each server, you need special purpose processing to do that at the lowest cost and power. >> Sujal, you mentioned that you've got solutioned into the public cloud. Are those the big hyperscale guys? Is it service providers? I'm curious if you could give a little color there. >> Yes, so these are both tier one and tier two service providers in the cloud market as well as the telco service providers, more in the NFV side. But we see a common theme here in terms of wanting to do security and things like telemetry. Telemetry is becoming a hot topic. Something called in-band telemetry that we are actually demonstrating at our booth and also speaking about with some our partners at the show, such as with Mirantis, Red Hat, and Juniper. Where doing all of these on each server is becoming a requirement. >> When I hear you talk, I think about here at OpenStack, we're talking about the hybrid or multi cloud world and especially something like security and telemetry I need to handle my data center, I need to handle the public cloud, and even when I start to get into that IoT edge environment, we know that the service area for attack just gets orders of magnitude larger, therefore we need security that can span across those. Are you touching all of those pieces, maybe give us a little bit of, dive into it. >> Absolutely, I think a great example is DDoS, right, distributed denial of service attacks. And today you know you have these kind of attacks happening from computers, right. Look at the environment where you have IoTs, right, you have tons and tons of small devices that can be hacked and could flood attacks into the data center. Look at the autonomous car or self-driving car phenomenon, where each car is equivalent to about 2,500 Internet users. So the number of users is going to scale so rapidly and the amount of attacks that could be proliferated from these kind of devices is going to be so high that people are looking at moving DDoS from the perimeter of the network to each server. And that's a great example that we're working with with a large service provider. >> I'm kind of curious how the systems take advantage of your technology. I can see it, some of it being transparent, like if you just want to jam more bits through the system, then that should be pretty transparent to the app and maybe even to the data plane and the virtual switches. But I'm guessing also there are probably some API or other software driven ways of doing, like to say, hey not only do I want you to jam more bits through there, but I want to do some packet inspection or I want to do some massaging or some QoS or I'm not sure what all these SmartNICs do. So is my model correct? Is that kind of the different ways of interacting with your technology? >> You're hitting a great point. A great question by the way, thank you. So the world has evolved from very custom ways of doing things, so proprietary ways of doing things, to more standard ways of doing things. And one thing that has kind of standardized so to say the data plane that does all of these functions that you mention, things like security or ACL roots or virtualization. Open vSwitch is a great example of a data plane that has kind of standardized how you do things. And there are a lot of new open source projects that are happening in the Linux Foundation, such as VPP for example. So each of these standardize the way you do it and then it becomes easier for vendors like us to implement a standard data plane and then work with the Linux kernel community in getting all of those things upstream, which we are working on. And then having the Red Hats of the world actually incorporate those into their distributions so that way the deployment model becomes much easier, right. And one of the topics of discussion with Red Hat that we presented today was exactly that, as to how do you make these kind of scales, scalability for security and telemetry, be more easily accessible to users through a Red Hat distribution, for example. >> Sujal, can you give us a little bit of just an overview of the sessions that Netronome has here at the show and what are the challenges that people are coming to that they're excited to meet with your company about? >> Absolutely, so we presented one session with Mirantis. Mirantis, as you know, is a huge OpenStack player. With Mirantis, we presented exactly the same, the problem statement that I was talking about. So when you try to do security with OpenStack, whether its stateless or stateful, your performance kind of tanks when you apply a lot of security policies, for example, on a per server basis that you can do with OpenStack. So when you use a SmartNIC, you essentially return a lot of the CPU cores to the revenue generating applications, right, so essentially operators are able to make more per server, make more money per server. That's a sense of what the value is, so that was the topic with Mirantis, who uses actually Open Contrail virtual router data plane in their solution. We also have presented with Juniper, which is also-- >> Stu: Speaking of Open Contrail. >> Yeah, so Juniper is another version of Contrail. So we're presenting a very similar product but that's with the commercial product from Juniper. And then we have yesterday presented with Red Hat. And Red Hat is based on Red Hat's OpenStack and their Open vSwitch based products where of course we are upstreaming a lot of these code bits that I talked about. But the value proposition is uniform across all of these vendors, which is when you do storage, sorry, security and telemetry and virtualization et cetera in a distributed way across all of your servers and get it for all of your appliances, you get better scale. But to achieve the efficiencies in the server, you need a SmartNIC such as ours. >> I'm curious, is the technology usually applied then at the per server level, is there a rack scale component too that needs to be there? >> It's on a per server basis, so it's the use cases like any other traditional NIC that you would use. So it looks and feels like any other NIC except that there is more processing cores in the hardware and there's more software involved. But again all of the software gets tightly integrated into the OS vendor's operating system and then the OpenStack environment. >> Got you. Well I guess you can never be too rich, too thin, or have too much bandwidth. >> That's right, yeah. >> Sujal, share with our audience any interesting conversation you had or other takeaways you want people to have from the OpenStack Summit. >> Absolutely, so without naming specific customer names, we had one large data center service provider in Europe come in and their big pain point was latency. Latency going form the VM on one server to another server. And that's a huge pain point and their request was to be able to reduce that by 10x at least. And we're able to do that, so that's one use case that we have seen. The other is again relates to telemetry, you know, how... This is a telco service provider, so as they go into 5G and they have to service many different applications such as what they call network slices. One slice servicing the autonomous car applications. Another slice managing the video distribution, let's say, with something like Netflix, video streaming. Another one servicing the cellphone, something like a phone like this where the data requirements are not as high as some TV sitting in your home. So they need different kinds of SLA for each of these services. How do they slice and dice the network and how are they able to actually assess the rogue VM so to say that might cause performance to go down and affect SLAs, telemetry, or what is called in-band telemetry is a huge requirement for those applications. So I'm giving you like two, one is a data center operator. You know an infrastructure as a service, just want lower latency. And the other one is interest in telemetry. >> So, Sujal, final question I have for you. Look forward a little bit for us. You've got your strategy hat on. Netronome, OpenStack in general, what do you expect to see as we look throughout the year maybe if we're, you know, sitting down with you in Vancouver a year from now, what would you hope that we as an industry and as a company have accomplished? >> Absolutely, I think you know you'd see a lot of these products so to say that enable seamless integration of SmartNICs become available on a broad basis. I think that's one thing I would see happening in the next one year. The other big event is the whole notion of hyperconvergence that I talked about, right. I would see the notion of hyperconvergence move away from one of just storage focus to security and telemetry with OpenStack kind of addressing that from a cloud orchestration perspective. And also with each of those requirements, software defined networking which is being able to evolve your networking data plane rapidly in the run. These are all going to become mainstream. >> Sujal Das, pleasure catching up with you. John and I will be back to do the wrap-up for day two. Thanks so much for watching theCUBE. (techno beat)