(upbeat fast paced techno music) >> Narrator: Live from San Francisco, celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage, it's The Cube. Covering VMworld 2019. Brought to you buy VMware and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone. Cube, the coverage here VMworld 2019. I'm John Furrier. Dave Vellante. Dave 10 years covering The Cube. Lots changed. The game is still the same when it comes to storage back in recovery. Got some new stuff too, some great news. Two great guests. Cube Alumni Shay Mowlem who's the Senior Vice President of Product Strategy Rubrik. Chris Wahl, Chief Technologist at Rubrik. Guys, welcome back to The Cube. >> Thanks. >> Good to be here. >> The game always is getting better in terms of modernization, that's the big trend. Digital transformation their are talks about that, but cloud impact has been something that you guys been riding the wave like I said, great success. I don't think you guys have been classified as a startup anymore, you're more in high growth mode. Let's cover the news. What's happening with the announcements here at Vmworld? What's the big news? >> We announced our new release of Andy's 5.1 and really breaking new ground and expanding our position into new markets around data governance, disaster recovery and we're also bringing in continuous data protection as a core capability of our product. Really excited about it. These are areas that have generally been addressed through sort of separate siloed approaches, and we see a lot of synergy with backup recovery and brought it all together as part of this offering. >> How's the news going over? >> Oh it's been great. I mean if you look at data governance, everyone is struggling today with privacy. How do you discover personally identifiable information in your backup archives? Very hard problem to solve. Generally people do spot audits and checks. We've just made that really easy. Streamline with a backup process. It sort of naturally fits there in some ways 'cause I'm backing it up, why not process that data to discover? Sends that information and classify it and our customers are really excited about that. >> Chris, talk about the architectural shift. 'Cause one of the things that we were observing in our opening day analysis is storage is still a hot startup sector. I mean, storage is not storage anymore. It's evolved. We were even joking this morning with Nvidia and Dalium C guy around H, VDI. That's not VDI anymore, it's user experience. Storage specifically with cloud has certainly changed on premises. Everyone now recognizes hybrid finally as standard, not going away. But the operating model is requiring a new architect, 'cause you can't just take the old and recycle it into the new. We'll talk about what that is specifically and why it's important. >> Yeah and I'll kind of tie that back to what we're talking here with cloud data management. It's kind of this acknowledgement that the way we did IT back in the day, where the storage food group was completely isolated, things went into it, things came out of it, but it wasn't part of that kind of overall architecture. Especially when you start talking public cloud and whatnot, that was just to kind of acknowledge that this model of IT just isn't going to carry us forward, and that's similar to the process of let's take all this backup data with Rubrik, let's index it, inventory it, really start to understand what's going on and use that as like the jet fuel that actually powers our Polaris platform and all of our data management applications. I think that all starts with storage. We had to have that data, add a primary into some secondary location, keep it very efficient, figure out how it's going to get from one place to the next. That used to be data centers, now it's clouds and back and forth. >> It's funny, these sacred cloud categories, backup recovery idea. It's data. I mean, this is a data problem. It's data, it's value is in data. You're seeing platform kind of thinking coming in. We talked about this in Palo Alto in our studio when you came in. >> Yes we did. It's a platform thing, it's not just this tool or siloed approach. >> Absolutely. That was when we spoke last, I had recently joined Rubrik back then. Our vision had always been, this is high value data. Yes, we're going to build back up in a way that is quite revolutionary, but how do we create more leverage out of that data? We're starting to see actual execution to that, both with our radar product ransom where recovery, sonar for data governance, orchestrated DR, exposing more and more value out of that data and it's really connecting. >> I'd love to come back to the announcement, the Andys announcement. >> Shay: Yes. >> You talk about governance, DR, and CDP. You're right, these often times would be point products, but explain to people sort of the before and the after. >> Shay: Sure. >> That you try to, when you walk into an account, you might see like I say, different point products. How are they transitioning? Maybe you could add some color there. >> Yeah absolutely. With data governance, everybody's, everyone's got deal with it today at some level. I use privacy as an example, but truly we all are impacted if you're in health care you've got HIPPA. If you're dealing with financial data, you've got PCI. Generally, the backup data has been somewhat of a black box. The only way to really check it, is to do sort of a spot audit check. It's labor intensive and hard. We're streamlining that process for our customers and incorporating it as a value add on top of what they're doing with backup and I think that's solving a major pain point. On DR, same thing. Separate silo today, generally different product lines, but backing up core objects, VM's, databases and application stacks, which is what you're really trying to do with a DR solution, you know there's a lot of synergy there. We're helping to just bring that synergy together into this integrated platform approach. >> You guys are doing some machine learning. I saw in the news around classification you mentioned it, index. It sounds like a search engine, but again to my point about these categories kind of being broken down, this platform, you guys are using machine learning to do some classification around protecting against breach. Is that right? Could you guys just drill down on that a little bit? What's that all about? >> Yes, so we use machine learning in a variety of ways. In our radar product, our ransomware recovery product, we us it for not only detection of changed patterns in the data. Ransomware techs generally involve people coming in, updating, deleting, encrypting your data. We look at the changing profile of the data, and alert allonomous behavior, and then recover it back to the last stable state. With our data governance product, we're also learning machine learning to discover that PII information and trying to really help find a very rich accurate way of detecting that data. >> So, to killer apps, one Ransomware which, big problem. I mean, you just, you can't look a day without seeing major ransomware. The Texas thing to me jumps out. Coordinated attacks. I even speculate, that's cybersecurity related. Some would say there's some stayed actors on that or sanctioned groups doing that, but that's, again I'm with conspiracy theory on this one, but that's Ransomware. Killer app. Compliance, kind of a boring category, but super important because of the penalties. I mean, compliance is an issue. Huge. >> Absolutely. I mean, you look at GDPR in Europe, compliance bossies here in this country across various verticals. Everyone's dealing with it in some form or another, and there's no reason why that should be a separate sort of process. Why not leverage the data management, like what is being provided by Rubrik to deliver on that? >> Here's another question on DR. One of the complaints that you hear, maybe not complaints, but observations when you talk to practitioners, is they can't test their DR. They can test the fair load, but they can't test the fail back 'cause it's too risky. >> Shay: That's spot on, yes. How do you address that problem? You're all about your modern data management, simplicity cloud. Describe how you solve that problem. >> That's a very, very powerful question Dave and it's so true. Traditionally, customers that are using on prem DR systems need to set up the infrastructure, the people, the processes. It's very labor intensive and expensive, so you can only do it a few times a year max and that's how you know that your DR system is operational. You don't want to discover that there's a problem when there's an actual DR happening. Our approach basically takes the full application stack that you want to protect, we convert it for you into a cloud native format and we can instantiate any one of those snapshots that we're taking that full application at any point in time, in the cloud for you to verify and test and we streamline that process, fully orchestrated. If you choose to keep it in the cloud, we have a cloud native approach to protect it and then you can fail back to your on prem system. We've just streamlined this process in a way that really helps our customers do DR test in a much more frequent basis without that operation burden and challenge that they're dealing with today. >> Talk about, Chris, this Rubrik build open source initiative. Because I want, it's interesting. First explain what is Rubrik build, what's it all about. What's the philosophy behind it? >> I'll take you back a few years, when I was interested in joining Rubrik. The one major defining characteristic of the product that really tugged my heart strings, was a restful set of API end points for everything. Doesn't matter what the product does. Anything you click it's always calling a restful API. That goes to a pain point that I had a a customer, was automating, we'll say any kind of backup product, but a lot of things in the infrastructure space was like smashing my face against a hot iron. (chuckles) >> Chris: You know, it's just not pleasant. >> Bad visual too. >> Chris: Exactly, so I'm thinking- >> I've never tried that. (laughs) >> Do not do that at home. >> The analogies, that's my one gift to the world. >> You need restful API is what you need. (laughs) >> Cute. So, finding a product that not only had them, but wanted you to consume them, made them available across every feature, click whatever existed, was very, very powerful for me and a lot of other people that I work with. Fast forward a few years, we developed quite the library of different source projects for integrating with things like ServiceNow and vRealize and anything that does things from configuration management, all the way to infrastructures code, and we would go talk to customers about these things. You had two camps of people. Either, I need the 100 level stuff. I've never dealt with CIDC Pipelines, automation, unit tests, pull requests, what is GitHub? All the way through, I know all that stuff, give me the use cases. What can I do with your API? We wanted to develop Rubrik Build as kind of a teach you how to make the champagne, and teach you how to drink the champagne. The idea is, all of our software development kits, our eco integrations and our use cases, are bundled into this very friendly ecosystem where it's all open source, we have quick start guides, educational materials, and a number of folks that are on the engineering and marketing teams that are engaging with people that either don't care much about cloud data management and just want to learn kind of the automation dev ops world of things, or are very keep to learn more about CDP >>and stuff like that. So Rubrik employees donating the code for open source. Did you guys create the project? Was it community driven or how was that structured? >> It was kind of three slices. It could be from Rubrik. We built this thing like an SDK. We obviously own and support that. It could be someone found our SDK, and wanted to write a third party integration. Heck, even Microsoft wrote a system center ops manager plugin and hosted on their GitHub site. Or it kind of something in the middle where working with like a red hat on their Ansible integrations is an example. >> What other kind of innovations have come out of that? You mentioned Microsoft doing the GitHub. Are there sort of things that have come out of it, or things that you're hoping to come out of it? It's hard to predict, I know. >> We've had the predecessor of the DR product that we released or announced, was actually born in open source. Many years ago, I had a customer saying, I'd really like to automatically do DR tests like every night, for the se five critical apps. We have the API's, we have the ability to live mount work loads, we tie into the cloud, I was like, there's no reason we can't do this. We had that kind of bit more, manual process, but it does the job years ago that we developed as a use case doing Helper Different Languages, fast forward now it's a product. You can kind of get to see that evolution from idea to sort of hacking on things to get them to work, to now it's a full product and you can just push the button and everyone's going to love that. That's one example. >> Very cool. >> Talk about the Vmware relationship. What's the status? How long have you guys been working with VMware and the ecosystem, and what are some of the new things that are developing in the relationship? >> Yeah I mean, this is a deep relationship. It's been a critical one from the beginning of the company. We integrate and support, and are certified across a variety of solutions. Obviously V Center and in this latest release with our continuous data protection, we've done that in a way that is a certified, approved approach and I think that helps us really build a confidence and deliver this sort of excellent overall experience that our customers are looking for. >> They got that open source aspect too, that's pretty hot right now with the cloud native stuff going on, that's pretty relevant. >> Shay: Absolutely. (chuckles) >> All right well we got to ask, with multi-cloud everything here. What's your guys point of view on multi-cloud? Real? BS? Somewhere in the middle? Time will tell? What's your thoughts? >> Definitely real. I'll add color. I mean, I think- >> Dave: Yeah, thank you. >> Absolutely. (laughs) we used to talk about hybrid just a few years ago and that's still real too, but we see a lot of customer looking at leveraging best in class for different work loads and different services across multiple clouds, and our vision it to be the data management platform of choice across all of that. Enabling that choice, and giving the excellent sort of cloud native experience that they're looking for as they deploy different work loads in these different environments. >> Just share with us. We've been talking at The Cube a lot. There's a lot of us who believe this, that certain parts of the multi-cloud are on the BS side. Now there's that vision that any app can run anywhere without recompiling, without retesting. That's aspirational. Then you're going to need a lot of homogenous infrastructure to do that. The one area that I do think that you can standardize on, is what you guys call a data management, or backup, that you can actually say, okay we're going to mandate that this is the platform that we're going to use across all clouds, and that actually will work technically. >> Chris: Yes. Some of this other stuff, I'm not so sure. >> If you have a control plane, if you will, with data management entities that live on prem as well as localities that are available across public cloud, then it's really just a choice of why do you want to put the data there. We're driving that through our serviceable agreement domains or isolated domains where you can say, this data needs to live in Germany. It needs to be in this particular data center forever, where this one needs to replicate to between France and London, something like that. You can make those choices based on what you're trying to achieve, more around non technical decision making, than actual technical decision making. Which I think has really been kind of, you call the BS versus no BS. It's like, are we trying to do this because we can or because we need to do something? That's to me, the decision between BS or not. >> Well, it's customer driven too. The use cases will drive it. For instance, a security requirement might be build our own stack, I want to be on this cloud, have a backup cloud or the work load might have certain requirements, but again I think the data question's a good one. That's going to be independent of- >> I want to test it with the technologist because if you have, let's say you have outposts and you got Azure Stack, Cloud Customer, whatever, and you think you're going to run apps anywhere and that's not going to happen anytime soon anyway. However, if I want a data management solution across all those, actually that can work. Right? There's not reason it can't because you'll write to their API's, you'll take care of that. >> You're saying that today with like Kubernetes deployments. They're not all the same, but they, everybody's got an offering in there and everyone has a full suite of API's that you can plug into. I do agree that things like data management not only can, but should be ubiquitous across localities. It shouldn't matter where you're at, the experience should be roughly the same. >> It's not that disruptive to say, okay rogue division, we're going to swap out and you're going to go standardize that. >> That's usually where the multi-cloud comes from. (chuckles) it's kind of involuntary. You got two teams, just chose different things. >> Right, right. >> While we got the brain trust on the key here, I want to pose another question for you that I mean, we're going to relive the video tape five years from now when we're going to see it, how it all turns out. (laughs) one of the things we've been kind of talking about here on The Cube, but also leading up to Vmworld this year is Cloud 2.0. Mainly around the following premise. Cloud 1.0 with being defined as AWS, DevOps, Agile, Lean Startup, all that stuff that was we all love in DevOps, compute, storage, scale, all the goodness that came from that. Cloud 2.0 is more of an enterprise cloud kind of configurations, so with that kind of, where networking and security and data are now kind of in the architecture. I want to ask you guys, if that's the premise of Cloud 1.0 was DevOps pure cloud native, born in the cloud, what's your definition of Cloud 2.0? Because a lot of people are looking at it from that simple lens, just trying to simplify that the requirements are changing, the architectures are different, the backup can work multi-cloud but this can't, so there's a lot of moving parts now in this enterprise hybrid world, so what's your definition guys on Cloud 2.0? >> I think increasingly you're seeing the landscape of the infrastructures you pointed out evolving the use of different services across clouds evolving. What's really important is that solutions like data protection don't limit your ability to capitalize on that in our minds, and so we want to build this ubiquitous sort of policy, engine and governance around how to protect my assets and enable whether it's containerized, application stacks that are being delivered or new private cloud deployments that we are not getting in the way of that in any way at all and allowing our customers to sort of broaden and leverage best in class services. >> Chris, what's your definition of Cloud 2.0? >> I'll take us back I mean, we saw this with virtualization. We saw everybody go, oh my gosh! I can get all this capacity used, and all these new services and just going bonkers, and that's where we had like zombie virtual machines and all these other terms that we don't really throw about anymore, but it was the Wild West. Everyone was just land and expand, and we kind of did that with cloud in a lot of cases. You're like, oh look at these new shiny's that I can play with, and now you're absolutely right. It's what about rollback status control and user security? My S3 bucket got hijacked. Ransomware is tearing through. You can now ransomware video cameras and things like that. It's a pretty terrifying world and I think this is that moment, where we take a look back and say, well is it highly available? Is it secure? How do I know that? How am I able to recover from availability or even external threat issues? To me, that's where most of the conversations we have are hard. >> Yeah it's the transformative opportunities is all intoxicating. Oh, this is great, but the reality is, it's not as clean as going to the cloud. >> Chris: Give me something that you know will work. >> I got to build the system out. It's an operating environment. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Totally agree. You guys are doing great. Thanks for the commentary and insight on Cloud 2.0 and multi-cloud, >> Pleasure guys. and congratulation on your success at Rubrik. Thanks for coming on sharing the insight. It's Cube coverage here at Vmworld 2019. More after this short break. (light techno music)

(uplifting music) >> Hello and welcome to this special CUBE Conversation. I'm John Furrier, here in Palo Alto at theCUBE studios for a special conversation with Tarun Thaker, general manager of Datos IO, part of Rubrik. Last time I interviewed you, you were the CEO. You guys got acquired, congratulations. >> Thank you, thank you, John. Very happy to be here. >> How'd that go? How'd the acquisition go? >> Excellent, excellent. I Met Bipul about August of last year and it was sort of perfect marriage waiting to happen. We were both going after the broader irresistible opportunity of data management. >> I've enjoyed our previous conversations because you guys were a hot, growing start up and then you look at Rubrik, if you look at the success that they've been having, just the growth in data protection, the growth in cloud, you guys were on with from the beginning with Datos. Now you got a management team, you got all this growth, it is pretty fun to watch and I'll see you locally in Palo Alto so it's been interesting to see you guys. Huge growth opportunity. Cloud people are realizing that this is not a side decision. >> No. >> It's got to be done centrally. The customers are re architecting to be cloud native. The on premises, we saw big industry movements happening with Amazon at VMworld announcing RDS on VMware on premises. >> Correct. >> Which validates that the enterprises want to have a cloud operation, both on premise. >> Yes. >> And in cloud. How has this shaped you guys? You have big news, but this is a big trend. >> No, absolutely. John, I think you rightly said, the pace of innovation at Rubrik and the pace of market adoption is beyond everybody's imagination, right? When I said that it was sort of a marriage waiting to be happened, is if you look at the data management tam it's close to 50 billion dollars, right? And you need to build a portfolio of products, right? You need to sort of think about the classical data center applications because on prem is still there and on premises is still a big part of spending. But if you look at where enterprises are racing to the cloud. They're racing given digital transformation. They're racing customer 360 experience. Every organization, whether it be financials, maybe healthcare, maybe commerce, wants to get closer to the end customers, right? And if you look underneath that macro trend, it's all this cloud native space. Whether it be Kubernetes and Docker based containers or it could be RDS which is natively built in the cloud or it could be, hey I want to now run Oracle in the cloud, right? Once you start thinking of this re architecting stack being built in the cloud, enterprises will not leap and spend those top dollars that they spend on prem if they don't get a true, durable data management stack. >> And one of the things I really was impressed when you Datos, now it's part of Rubrik, is you were cloud up and down the stack. You were early on cloud, you guys thought like cloud native. Your operations was very agile. >> Thank you. >> Everything about you, beyond the product, was cloud. This is a critical success now for companies. They have to not just do cloud with product. >> Correct. >> Their operational impact has to be adjusted, how they do business, the supply chains, the value chains. These things are changing. >> The licensing, the pricing. >> This is the new model. >> Yes. >> This is where the data comes in. This is where the support comes in. You guys have some hard news, Datos IO 3.0. What's the big news? >> John, as you said, we've been very squarely focused on what we called the NoSQL big data market, right? We, if you look at, you know you talked about Amazon RDS, if you go to the Amazon business, Amazon database business is about four billon dollars today, right? Just think about that. If you take a guess on number one data base in Amazon native, it's not Oracle, it's MySQL. Number two, it's not SQL Server, it's Mongo DB. So if you look at the cloud native stack, we made this observation four years ago, as you said, that underneath this was all NoSQL. We really found that blue ocean, as we call it, the green field opportunity and go build the next Veritas for that space. You know, with 3.0, Bipul likes to call it in accordance to his leadership, consolidate your gains. Once you find an island full of gold coins, you don't leave that island. (laughing) You go double down, triple down, right? You don't want to distract your focus so 3.0 is all about us focusing. Really sort of the announcements are rooted around three vectors, as we call it. Number one, if you look at why Rubrik was so successful, you know you went into a pretty gorilla market of backup but why Rubrik has been successful at the heart is this ease of use and simplicity. And we wanted to bring that culture into, not only Datos team, but also into our product, right? So that was simplicity. Large scale distributive systems are difficult to deploy and manage so that was the first part. Second part was all about, you know, if you look at Mongo. Mongo has gone from zero to four billion dollars in less than 10 years. Every Fortune 2000, 500, Global 2000 customer is using Mongo in some critical way. >> Why is that? I mean people were always, personally we love Mongo DB, but people were predicting their demise every year. "Oh, it's never going to scale," I've heard people say and again, this is the competition. >> Correct. >> We know who they are. But why is the success there? Obviously NoSQL and unstructured data's big tsunami and there's more data coming in than ever before. Why are they successful? >> Excellent. That's why I enjoy being here, you go to the why not the what and the how. And the why is rooted for why Mongo DB's so successful, is application developers. We've all read this book, developers are the king makers of the IT, not your IT and storage admins? And Mongo found that niche, that if I can go build a database which is easier for an application developer, I will build a company. And that was the trend they built the company around. Fast forward, it's stock that is trading at $80 a piece. >> Yeah. >> To four billion plus in market. >> Yeah and I think the other thing I would just add, just riffing on that, is that cloud helps. Because where Mongo DB horizontally scales-- >> Elastic. >> The old critics were saying, thinking vertical scale. >> Correct. >> Cloud really helps that. >> Absolutely, absolutely. Cloud is our elastic resources, right? You turn it out and you turn it down. What we found in the first, as you know in the last two to three years journey of 1.0, 2.0, that we were having a great reception with Mongo DB deployments and again, consolidate your gains towards Mongo so that was the second vector, making Datos get scale out for Mongo DB deployments. Number three, which is really my most favorite was really around multi cloud is here, right? No enterprise is going to really, bet only on one form of Amazon or one form of Google Cloud, they're going to bet it across these multiple clouds, right? We were always on Amazon, Google. We now announced Datos natively available on Amazon, so now if you have enterprise customers doing NoSQL applications in Amazon, you can protect that data natively to the cloud, being the Azure cloud. >> So which clouds are you guys supporting now with 3.0? Can you just give the list? >> Yep, yep. We supported Amazon from very early days, AWS. Majority of customers are on Amazon. Number two is Google Cloud, we have a great relationship with Google Cloud team, very entrepreneurial people also. And number three's Azure. The fourth, which is sort of a hidden Trojan horse is Oracle Cloud. We also announced Datos on Oracle Cloud. Why, you may ask? Because if you look at, again, NoSQL and data stacks in Cassandra, we saw a very healthy ecosystem building for Cassandra and Oracle Cloud, for obvious reasons. It was very good for us to follow that tailwind. >> Interestingly I was just at Oracle yesterday for a briefing, and I'm not going to reveal any confidential information, because it's all on the record. They're heavily getting to cloud native. They have to. >> They have to. There's no choice. They cannot be like tiptoeing, they have to go all in. >> And microservices are a big thing. This is something that you guys now have focus on. Talk about the microservices. How does that fit in? Because you look at Kubernetes, Kubernetes is becoming that kind of TCPIP moment for the cloud world or TCPIP powered networked and created inter working. The inter cloud or the multi cloud relationship? >> Correct, all the cloud native. >> Kubernetes is becoming that core catalyst. Got containers on one side, service meshes on the other. This brings in the data equation, stateful applications, stateless applications, this is going to change the game for developers. >> Absolutely. >> Actually now you have a backup equation, how do you know what to back up? >> Correct. >> What's the data? >> Correct. >> What's the impact? >> Yeah. So the announcement that we announced, just to cover that quickly, is we were seeing that trend. If you look at these developers or these DBAs or data base admins who are going to the cloud and racing to the cloud? They're not deploying OVA files. They're not deploying, as you said, IP network files, right? They want to deploy these as containerized applications. So running Mongo as a Docker container or Cassandra as a Docker container or Couch as a Docker container and you cannot go to them as a data management product as an age old mechanism of various bits and bytes. So we announced two things, Datos is now available as a Docker container, so you can just get a Docker file and run your way. And number two is we can also protect your NoSQL applications that are Dockerized or that are containerized, right? And that's really our first step into what you're seeing with Amazon EKS, right? Elastic Kubernetes Service. If you saw NetApp announced yesterday the acquisition of Kubernetes as a service, right? And so our next step, now that we've enabled Docker container of Datos, is to how do we bring Kubernetes as a service on top of Docker because Docker to deploy, orchestrate, manage that by itself is really still a challenge. >> Yeah containers is the stepping stone to orchestration. >> Correct, correct. >> You need Kubernetes to orchestrate the containers. >> That is correct, that is correct. >> Alright so summarize the announcements. If you had to boil this down, what's the 3.0? >> So if I were to sort come back and give you sort of the headline message, it is really our release to go crack open into the Fortune 500, Global 2000 enterprises. So if you remember, 60% of our customers are already what we call it internally, R2K, global 2000 customers so Datos, 60% of our customers who are large Fortune 500 customers. >> They're running mission critical? >> They're mission critical, no support applications. >> So you're supporting mission critical applications? >> Absolutely, some of our biggest customers, ACL Worldwide, one of the largest financial leading organization. Home Depot, that we have talked about in the past, right? Palo Alto Networks, the worlds largest cloud security networking company, right? If you look at these organizations they are running cloud native applications today. And so this release is really our double down into cracking open the Global 2000 enterprises and really staying focused at that market. >> And multi cloud is critical for you guys? >> Oh, absolutely. Any enterprise software company without, especially a data company, right? At the end of the day, it's all about data. >> Tarun, talk about why multi cloud, at some point. I'd love to get your expert opinion on this because you know Kubernetes, you see what's coming around the corner with service meshes and all this cool stuff because it impacts the infrastructure. With multi cloud, certainly what everyone's asking about, hybrid and multi cloud. Why is multi cloud important? What's the impact of multi cloud? >> Great question, John. You know, I think it's rooted in sort of three key reasons, right? Number one, if you look at what enterprises did back in the day, right history repeats itself, right? They never betted only on IBM servers. They bought Dell servers, they bought HP servers. Never anybody betted only on ESX as the virtual hypervisor platform. They betted on KBM and others, right? Similarly if you look at these enterprises, the ones that we talked about, Palo Alto Networks, they're going to run some of the applications natively on Amazon but they want DR in Google Cloud so think about a business use case being across clouds. So that's the one, right? I want to run some applications in Amazon because of elasticity, ease of use, orchestration but I want to keep my DR in a different site but I don't want to a colo, right? I want to do another cloud, so that's one. Number two is some of your application developers are, you know, in different regions, right? You want to enable sort of different cloud sites for them, right? So it's just locality, would be more of a reason and number three which is actually, probably I think the most important, is if you look at Amazon and what they have done with the book business, what they've done with others, e-commerce organizations like eBay, like Home Depot, like Foot Locker, they're very wary of betting the farm on a retail organization. Fundamentally Amazon is a retail organization, right? So they will go back, their use cases on Google cloud, they'll go back their use cases on Azure cloud so it's like vertical. Which vertical is prone or more applicable to a particular cloud, if that make sense? >> And so having multi vendors been around for a while in the enterprise, so multi vendor just translates to multi cloud? >> There you go, yes, yes. >> How about what's goin' on with you guys? Next week is Microsoft Ignite, their big cloud show from Microsoft. You guys have a relationship with them. In November you announced a partnership. >> Correct. >> Rubrik and you guys are doing that, so what's going on with them? You're co-selling together? Are they joint developing? What's the update? >> Ignite, so Microsoft, I'll give an update on Microsoft and then Ignite. As you know, John Thompson is on our board and you know fundamentally the product that we have built, Azure team, working with them, we have come to realize that it's a great product to bring data to the cloud. >> Right. >> And we have a very good, strong product relationship with Microsoft, we have a co-sell meaning their reps can sell Rubrik and get quota retirement, that's massive, right? Think for both the companies, right? And companies don't make those decisions, John, lightly. Those decisions are made very strictly. >> Quota relief is great. >> It's huge. >> It's a sales force for you guys. >> Exactly, yep. For us, specifically on Ignite, with this release we announced Azure. We worked very closely with the Azure storage division. When we pitched them, hey we are now, Datos is available on Azure, the respect that we got was amazing. We had a Microsoft quote in our press release. At Ignite next week we have dedicated sessions talking about NoSQL back ups on Microsoft, natively being protected on Azure Cloud. It's good for them, good for us, huge announcement next week. >> That's good. You guys have done the work in the cloud and it's interesting, early cloud adopters get some dividends on that. Just to summarize the chat here, if you had to talk to customer who's watching or interested and sees all this competition out there, a lot of noise in the industry, how would you summarize your value proposition? What's the value that you're bringing to the table? How do you guys compete on that value? Why Datos? >> Perfect, thank you. It's, again, simple order in one to three. Number one, we're helping you accelerate journey to the cloud. Right, you want to go the cloud, we understand Fortune 500 enterprises want to race to the cloud. You don't want to race without protection, without data management. It's your data, it needs to be in your control so that's one. We're helping you race to the cloud, yet keeping your data in your hands. Number two, you are buying a truly cloud native software not a software that was built 20 years ago and shrink wrapped into cloud. This is a product built into technologies which are cloud native, right? Elasticity, you can scale up Datos, you can scale down Datos, just like Amazon resources so you're truly buying an elastic technologies rooted data management product. And number three, you know if you really look at cloud, cloud to you as a customer is all about, hey can I build, not lift and shift, cloud native. And you're adopting these new technologies, you don't want to not think about protection, management, DR, those critical business use cases. >> And thinking differently about cloud operations is critical. Great to see you Tarun. Thanks for coming on and sharing the news on Datos 3.0, appreciate it. I'm John Furrier, here in Palo Alto Studios with the general manager of Datos IO, now part of Rubrik, formerly the CEO of Datos, Tarun Thaker, thanks for watching. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching theCUBE. (uplifting music)

(dramatic music) >> Welcome to this special Cube Conversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier here with Shay Mowlem, Senior Vice President of Product and Strategy at Rubrik here in theCUBE Talk. Thanks for coming in today, great to see you. >> Pleasure, John, pleasure to see you. >> So the thing is, you joined Rubrik, Senior Vice President, last time we spoke to you in theCUBE, you were at Splunk. And then you did a stint at Mulesoft, famous public company, sold to Salesforce for massive amounts of money. Now you're here at Rubrik, thanks for comin' on. What's the story, what happened? >> Well, you know, Bipul, our founder and I, met a few years ago, we were introduced. I guess it was about two and a half years ago. I was running product manager and product marketing at Splunk at the time. And he just impressed me with his vision of what he was trying to do through Rubrik. The company was significantly smaller than it is today. And talked about his vision to really disrupt this 30 billion dollar market. And do it in a way that was very cloud-based, revolutionary. Allow companies to extract much bigger value out of this secondary storage arena. I thought, wow, sounds exciting. But at the time, I was just about to take a bigger role at Splunk, my timing was off. So it didn't work out, but we kept in touch. And we touched base again earlier this year. And I was just so impressed by what he had accomplished with Rubrik. In less than four years from zero to 300 million run rate. The executives that he assembled around the company, the progress that the business had made, the customers, the expansion into cloud arena, the innovation. It was just one of those opportunities you can't walk away from, and so I jumped on it. >> It's a classic Silicon Valley enterprise story. If you look at, he's been on theCUBE, so the folks watching, check out theCUBE video on Youtube or thecube.net. Bitpul, CEO, Founder of Rubrik, great interview. But it's interesting, I mean there's a lot of money thrown at Rubrik. They're growing like crazy. It's the classic rocket fuel going after the story. But there's a unique product angle that I think's interesting. And you're in charge of products and technology for the company. But you've also had a journey in the enterprise. Splunk was a very successful company. Mulesoft, very successful. Saas company sold to Salesforce. Huge tower in San Francisco. There's a new, kind of, generation shift happening with cloud computing that's forcing enterprises to change their infrastructure. And this is beyond just backup and other things. >> Yeah. >> This is a generation, once in a generation shift. >> Yes. >> In BTB, how has it changed things? And you've seen a lot of the enterprise action over the past decade or so and more. But right now, it's more than ever. What's the big shift? And I'll say, cloud force is a lot of change. What's the impact to the customer? >> You know, I think there are two phases to that. There's one that we are serving a market, this backup recovery market, represents a massive area of investment for companies. I've seen stats that suggests that there's 6x as much spend on storage infrastructure for the secondary arena than there is for production grade systems. But yet, this market just hasn't seen innovation since data domain. >> So tons of money, but nothing happening. >> Nothing happening. So we came in initially with a whole new, very customer centric approach, that delivered all of the complexity that this market had seen before, shrink wrapped into a modern era software platform running on commodity hardware. Our customers can be up and running in less than an hour. They can archive and leverage the cloud. And so it's driving both TCO benefits, agility of the business, and allowing them access to move workloads to the cloud, manage the cloud in ways that they'd never seen before. And so I think, certainly that has been one big part of the success of Rubrik. But I think, more broadly on the cloud, we're seeing many companies are really in a hybrid mode. They are moving from on-prem, they're leveraging MSPs, they're starting to build certain businesses in the cloud, and the ability to manage all that centrally, and in a way that is governed properly and allows them to extract real value from it, is something that's really resonating for our customers. >> What was the reason why you joined Rubrik. I mean, everyone has a reason. >> Obviously, you met Bitpul, you guys keeping in touch. Was it the team, was it the technology? What was the one thing that you were attracted to, that put you over the top? >> One thing, I've got so many. >> The most important thing. >> You know, I think I'm going to force you with three answers on that one. >> I'm supposed to ask you to rank them by one two and three. >> Alright, sounds good, I'll end with the last one on the product. >> Alright. >> I fell in love with Bitpul, quite honestly. I mean, remarkable guy, quite humble. Such tenacity, such a focus on customers. They team that he's assembled, to me, was just so paramount. I wanted to be part of this organization. And honestly, I'm humbled to be sitting around the table with folks like Murray Demo, who's our CFO, and Mark Smith, our head of sales from Arista, you know, Kara Wilson, our CMO. And we just keep bringing these incredible individuals to the company and the org. I'm truly humbled to be sitting around the table with them. So that excitement by the way, goes all the way down. The folks that have been hired into the organization are quite remarkable. But the thing that really, from a product perspective, that really is exciting to me, is that, not only are we disrupting this 40 billion dollar market in a way that's really connecting for our customers, we're doing it in a way that is thinking ahead. We're not treating this backup arena as some blob that's going to sit on tape somewhere. We're building it as part of an integrated management platform that then allows our customers to extract higher value services and insight from that in a way that they've never seen before. So radar is, we've had some incredible innovation over the last four months that I've been with the company. With the release of Rubrik Alta 4.2, the new product Radar for Ransomware protection. We've talked about our AWS competency and advancements there. But Radar is an example of a service that we're building on top of this data management platform that delivers higher value for our customers. And I am so excited about the exponential growth in value that we're going to deliver to our customers as we continue to deliver more of these services. >> Yeah, get the technology, got the great team. Yeah, the code of market is going to be interesting. With cloud, you've got marketplaces, you've got consumption by the users, the customers if you will, on your end, is changing, I think Saas is being a big part of it. How has the product road map shifted from classic old school product to now? Because it has to be a service. This service is out there, still commodity hardware. Software's driving the value. That's where the hardware gets sold. That's where the cloud gets sold on. It used to be the other way around. Your hardware drove what you can do with software. So that's a been flipped. >> Yes. >> How are you guys working that in the equation? Software first, cloud first? I mean, how do you explain that to customers? >> Well we're always a software company. And we built Rubrik as a very modern era expandable platform that runs on commodity hardware. And can archive and move workloads to the cloud at its core. I mean, our founders came from companies like Google and Facebook, and had really come from this world. And so, our customers were able to get that value quickly. And I think that was a big part of what attracted them to Rubrik. But if you really fast forward into the future, our vision is to have a ubiquitous centralized data management platform from which our customers can govern, manage, and establish rules that govern all of their applications that they protect across cloud boundaries, across private clouds, traditional infrastructure, cloud workloads, and we really think that's connecting for our customers. >> So about the product road map. Obviously, you're in charge of product and strategy, so you have a great market entry, the success has been documented. You guys have been one of the fastest growing companies in Silicon Valley the past couple of years. I've seen the success. You always have a big party at VM world. Your big show there, lookin' forward to this year. >> Going to happen again this year. (laughing) >> I heard there's a big performer there coming. Last year, it was great to see the Warriors there. So, but product is interesting. 'Cause at your start up, you want to have a beachhead, secure a core positioning, and then look at, kind of holistically, what the customers might want. >> Yeah. >> Can you share some insight into what that product roadmap is? And how are you guys fortifying your core and what are you adding onto the roadmap? >> Yeah, you know, the first thing that we did when we came out, was to provide this capability to protect your data and make it really easy to use, archive to the cloud, and we focused on the VMware and hypervisors, and it was very well received. And over the years, we've expanded to support other areas, other data, other applications. And so our strategy, certainly is going to continue to do that with the vision of protecting all of our customer's applications and data, regardless of where they reside. Whether they are traditional infrastructure applications running on PRIM, in private clouds, or new modern architectures that are running in the cloud. The ability to manage all of that. And that's certainly going to continue to be one of the directions of the roadmap strategy. The other is, as I mentioned, we're not really looking at these protected images as black boxes or tape images. We're going to enable our customers to extract value out of them in a way that they haven't seen before by introspecting this data and revealing insights from it. >> What's the current situation? So why can't they get that today? >> Well I think, typically, these images are stored in a proprietary blob form. And you can't really see much in there. >> You can't unlock it at all. >> You can't unlock it. And you can't really know much about what's even in the black box. And so, from the beginning, we started capturing meta-data that allows customers to classify this data and get insight into, well what applications are actually running in this particular snapshot. And so we continue to extract that level of value that is really connecting for our customers in allowing them to resurrect, move workloads, introspect for compliance reasons or otherwise in ways that, I think, are just really important. >> Yeah, things like GDPR for instance, alone. It gives it as a great use case. >> Absolutely. >> Alright, so what's the big picture? If you had to go talk to your friends and say, hey I joined Rubrik. And they say, I've never heard of Rubrik, what do they do? You don't say backup company, you say data company. How do you describe the company? >> I talk about a company that's providing data management for non-production systems. And allowing customers to extract value in ways that they haven't seen before. And I think, candidly, John, I have been very fortunate to work with some great companies. I have never seen an opportunity as exciting and as big as what Rubrik represents. It's just so important to our customers. Everybody has to protect their apps. And we're able to do it an a way that's going to allow them to extract so much more value. >> And what was your official start date? You started a couple months ago? >> April first. >> April first, four months roughly, yeah. >> Exactly, thrilled. >> And your impression, as you walk in. What's the DNA, what's the vibe of the company? If you had to describe the DNA of the company. >> You know, I'm really thrilled. I am really thrilled to be part of this organization. There's a deep sense of culture. One of the things that attracted me early on was there was an article written about Bipul talking about radical transparency. Open board room meetings, I'd never seen that before. And you know what it's about? It's about employee empowerment, he is so committed to that. To making sure that we are able to set everybody up to deliver their best in the organization. And I think it's spot on. It's why we're innovating so quickly. It's why we're attracting such top talent at all levels of the organization. And it's why I'm so confident about the future of this company. >> That's great. And you know, one of the things too that I want to get your thoughts on. Because you see in cloud disrupt a lot of things, and a great opportunity for you guys. You know, we're seeing it out there, and we talked to end-user enterprises. That the common answer is, you know clouds, that we got to go there. But the one thing that's interesting, is they all say, no matter what we do, when we talk about cloud for them, it makes them change their infrastructure. >> Yes. >> On premises, and what they do in the cloud. So it's a rethinking of things. So that's one. So that's opening up new markets. So question for you we have is, as you guys look at new markets, things like public sector for instance. We're seeing, I wrote a story today, it's looking like Oracle is challenging Amazon for the Department of Defense Deal. So public sector and global public sector. Not just in United States is a very interesting market. How are you guys doing in say that market? I know you're strong in the enterprise, but what's the sector angle? You guys competing there, you winning, what's the story? >> We are, and I would say there are multiple motions in addition to the public sector example. We're seeing a lot of Global 2000 organizations moving to manage service providers. And so that's an example of a private cloud model that really works for a lot of folks in federal organizations as well. Really looking to have a tenant, well-secured service model for their various agencies. And that is very aligned with what we're doing. In fact, in our Alta 4.2 release, we talked about Envoy that really advances how service providers can, and manage service providers even within organizations, can actually enable more self servicing capability in that regard. We see these varying segments. >> So you see public sector as an opportunity for you guys? >> No doubt. In fact, if you look at the rubric customer base today, it really spans the gamut of markets across the board, including public sector and state local agencies as well. >> Well we know you got a great relationship with Amazon Web Services, AWS. You're a competency partner with them, which is the highest award or level you can get. What is your relation with the other clouds, Google, Microsoft, Alibaba, and others? How do you guys relate to those other clouds? >> Our customers run on all platforms. And Rubrik does have a relationship with Microsoft, certainly. In fact, we have a co-sale agreement with them. We support Ajar at a relatively deep level. Same thing with Google Cloud. We enable our customers to. >> You're agnostic on cloud, basically. >> We are agnostic, and the point is, I think every one of these cloud platforms has their own unique angle and value, and we want to enable our customers to really leverage the platform of their choice. >> So a lot young people are lookin' at career choices. And some of the jobs are out there that haven't even been invented yet. At school starts to figure out curriculum, starting to see computer science. Women in tech is booming. You're seeing a lot of different, new kinds of jobs around data science, for instance. What do you advise young people, who are either in high school or college, who are thinking about careers? You don't have the classic, I'm going to be a software engineer. You could be a software developer, software artist, there's different jobs in management, marketing. All kinds of different scopes. What's the current track that you would recommend people to explore if they're interested in getting in tech? >> You know, I think it's remarkable to me to see how the internship programs have evolved. And how active they are. I was initially recruited into Oracle directly out of college. It was a very regimented process of recruiting from college. Well now you've got these internships. And I tell you, some of the interns that have worked with companies that I have been a part of just impress the hell out of me. So that's a great way to get in, to see what's about, and to have an opportunity to add value. And every single time one of those interns does something remarkable, and it happens all the time, there is an offer on the table for them to come back, too. So I think that's a very good way with many of these organizations to get in. >> I mean, it's so interesting. We do a lot of interviews. And there's no classic cookie cutter job anymore. I think you're starting to see interdisciplinary opportunities that are coming up. Some computer science, little bit of sociology, or business mixed, it's very interesting. Almost an alchemy of different projects out there that people can get involved in. >> Absolutely. >> Open source certainly is a big one. >> And it's fun because when we get new college grads, we just give them the opportunity to do a lot of different things in rotations. And that helps them also sort of get a sense of where their passion lies and what they want to do. And it's exactly the right thing to demand as you're coming into the workforce. >> It's interesting, at Google Cloud, I was talking with some folks over there. And you know, the women in tech conversation, and opportunity recognition and to level up. So many new opportunities that anyone of any gender or race can come in and quickly level up. >> Yes. >> 'Cause it's so new, the technology with Cloud. It's kind of interesting. >> Yes, I mean, I think it all comes down to your personal ability and commitment and work ethic and drive. And there's no end in sight to what's possible. >> That's right, well thanks for coming on theCUBE. Great to see you, and congratulations on your new role at Rubrik. Great company, right down the street here in Palo Alto. Rubrik, new Senior Vice President of Product and Strategy here inside theCUBE. For Cube conversation, I'm John Furrier here in Palo Alto in our studios. Thanks for watching. (dramatic music)

>> Hello everyone, welcome to a special CUBE conversation. We're here in our Palo Alto studios. I'm John Furrier host of theCUBE and we're here with Bipul Sinha, Co-Founder and CEO of Rubrik, one of the hottest startups in Silicon Valley. Great to have you here in the cube. Thank you so much for this opportunity. So thanks for coming in. You guys have $292 million in funding led the Series A with Lightspeed, Series B with Greylock Series C with Khosla, Series D with IVP. You've got celebrities like Kevin Durant, Frank Slootman, rockstar investors. Great momentum. John Thompson. Just join your board recently. He's on the board of Microsoft as well.  All since 2014, like short time. Congratulations. >> Thank you so much. And we have been very fortunate to have the market traction and demand for Rubrik's for what is now cloud data management product. When we started the company we saw a market need around simplification, cloud enablement and really automating, orchestrating, backup recovery, recovery archive and DR across on-premises and the cloud. >> You guys. Had it been pretty good run here. You've got a new CFO. Talk about that. News, I want to get that out. There was the new CFO, we have >> Our new CFO is Murray Demo. We hired him out of Atlassian where he, he joined the company and took the company public and then the company next two years become like a very fast growing, very successful public company. Our goal is to build Rubrik into the next 30-, 40-years iconic company and we're building a management team that, that will have the firepower and the and the talent to take this company to really become the standard for data management. >> Yeah. I want to get to that. That's I think the big story for you guys is that you've now come out of nowhere, but it's just, you know, the classic startup story, great investors, but you know, we'd go to all the events. We see you guys out there just all of a sudden, just a massive runs. You put the foundation together. Um, you've publicly said you, you're on a $300 million run rate. Great numbers. So great growth. What's take us inside Rubrik. I mean, how is this all working when you guys got good funding? You've got a great management team. What's the core strategy? How it. Why is it working for you guys? >> The core of Rubrik is our culture because technology evolves product. What is invariant is Rubrik's, culture, our culture of transparency, the culture of velocity. The culture of relentlessness is actually drives Rubrik. When we bring new employees into Rubrik, we tell them that it's not about what makes your boss happy or what makes the CEO of this company happy. What moves the agenda of this company? Always think about how do we make or give Rubrik the best opportunity that company can get and we'd drive on that basis so there is no ego, there is no superiority that sales is better than or engineering is a 'know-it-all' and Gods. It's all about how do we collectively build the foundation of a long lasting large public company. >> So that early DNA about that DNA. Where's that come from? The come from the product side engineering side. What? Where's that core DNA of that teamwork come from. >> The core DNA of the team is Google, Facebook, Oracle software. Essentially folks who built the largest scale distributed system, very strong industrial strength enterprise product that powers most of the large enterprises in the world, so we took these two thoughts, of Oracle-like industrial product and Google, Facebook, Amazon- like a scale-out distributed infrastructure and brought together in a single product. >> It's interesting. Lightspeed does it. A lot of interesting deals that were once poo-pooed by many in the industry. Nutanix was one and you mentioned Facebook, Google, these are not, I won't say cloud native. They basically built the cloud. They had to build their own hyperscale or they build their own infrastructure all on open source so you have that generational DNA with it from the tech standpoint and and market standpoint. And Nutanix is a great example because they, you know, they brought all this together. This is a new new kind of view. This is a modern perspective that you guys are taking. I want to ask you as you look at the cloud, and a lot of people were poo-pooing Amazon in the early days and look at them, they've run the table, the number one by miles and public cloud. No one's even close in my opinion, but you know, this is a whole new seat change, so you've got Facebook, you've got the Google's got the Nutanixs is of the world out there who were doing things different. Now are the standard. What are you guys doing that someone might say, I don't really get that yet. Or poo-pooing it that you think is a modern approach and that's different. >> See, the issue really is that how do enterprises take advantage of public cloud simplicity, agility, scale, without being bothered by it because the word, because the cloud is a programmatic paradigm, enterprise previously has been a declarative paradigm. How do you bring these two worlds together and really create a seamless platform where enterprises can automate, orchestrate and secure their data, and that has been the vision of Rubrik. The vision of Rubrik is simplicity at the scale with cloud-enabled a single software fabric across on premises and public cloud. That has been the vision of the company and we have been delivering our product from the very beginning. On this vision, we are just adding one blade after the next, after the next blade to really go be a single software platform across multiple clouds and data centers. >> That's great. Again, sounds like data's at the center of the value proposition from your. From your good discussion. Clearly Facebook status center, their value proposition, although under a lot of criticism today, Google as a data company, as companies realize that data is critical for their business, how do they transform it from what used to be because the old way was fenced-off data warehouse or some sort of batch siloed software stack and now that with all kinds of new things like GDPR for instance, and it's coming around the corner, all these headaches are emerging where it's like, wow, this is really painful, but they want to get to a seamless way, so what's going on there? Can you explain in simple way that that transition from the old data modeling where you had siloed stacks or you know, old fenced out data warehouses to something that's really agile somewhere data's a part of the intellectual property, part of the software fabric. >> This is a really insightful question because you have a dichotomy here. The dichotomy is on one side, data is the biggest strengths and biggest asset for all enterprises. On the other side there is a. there is a risk of a bad uses of that data and and and companies private or people's private information getting out. So how do enterprises or businesses create a platform where they can secure their data, they can provide access to the data, to the relevant people or applications in a very controlled and secure way and at the same time protect this strategy asset from tech, from ransomware, from just proliferating or losing, so, so the traditional industry focused on really building a storage platforms for it, but our view is that the storage platform is just the keeper of the data, but the real issue is that how do you automate, orchestrate and secure access to the data because data can be on premises, data can be public clouds, but really this data control plane that actually manages and secures and provides access to this data is the critical piece and that's the Rubrik's focus. >> All right, let's get into. I want to get into the new product announcement before we get there. I want to get your thoughts on architecture because a lot of people have been enamored and using successfully Amazon web services and some are saying that, oh, Amazon is the roach motel. Why don't you check in, you can check out with respect to your data center saying data portability is coming around the corner, but to move data around the cloud is not that easy. Um, so customers are building on Amazon but they also might have azure. So multi-cloud is out there and you can also. Google's got some great stuff going on with Tensorflow and other things that they'd got rolling out, but there's not a one cloud fits all for all workloads. Certainly in the enterprise. And then you've got the on premise, a dynamic. How do, how do you view that? Because now that's an opportunity for you guys, but also a challenge for the customers where they start using the public cloud for business benefits and then realize, well we got a lot of data in there and then it becomes a data opportunity and problem. What's your view of that landscape? >> So the VC, the whole data management, it is Rubrik is creating a whole new better diamond platform because architects really. We thought about this as something where you combine the data and metadata together so that you data becomes self describing. This is a very architectural thing that Rubrik debt because when data understand where it came from and who he he or she is, then you can take this data from on premises to the cloud and powered it on or go from cloud to cloud and power it on some other place, so this core fundamental vision and architecture of data plus deeply connected together and mobile is what really powers Rubrik and that is the fundamental platform and fundamental architecture of Rubrik and that is our view in the future. Saying that once you create the self describing data and this will see a data from the underlying infrastructure, then you give the true power of the data back to the customer because data knows where it came from, which application it is associated with, who has access to it and who can use it. That's where you see the real power of multi-cloud, multi data center, independence of data and application from the infrastructure. >> So you believe data should be friction-less with respect to where it should go at any given time. >> Absolutely. I mean that's where the power, the enterprises and businesses can realize from their data because they can actually collaborate, they can give more access to their data, to their own users without worrying about the wrong data falling into the wrong hands. Can they actually transcreate transport of the data? Can they not stuck in one infrastructure versus take the data wherever they find data to be most applicable, easiest to use and more secure. >> That's great. So we don't want to jump into a new announcement. Before we get there. I want you to just take a minute to explain, um, Rubriks, target customer that you guys are serving today. You get 900 employees, you've got over $300 million run rate in business. Who's buying the product? Why was it a physician? Who's the buyer? What's the value proposition of the offering? >> So we sell into a enterprises. So we are not an SMB product. We sell into the enterprise, I would buy it as our cloud architects, our buyers, our infrastructure architects are buyers are virtualizing architects, uh, folks who are thinking about automation, orchestration, security of the data, recoverability of the data, protection from ransomware, things like that. And that's our core technical and economic buyers and, uh, and, and the core businesses or people who have, um, who have employees more than. So, cloud transformation is classic. Absolutely functional guys are involved in. That's the big driver for Rubrik. Rubin's growth is indexed on the cloud, about has it on their agenda. >> All right, so let's get into the hard news. You guys are launching Rubrik's Polaris, the industry's first SaaS platform for data management applications. I'm smiling because whenever I see first I want to know what that means. I've seen data application platforms out there. I've seen SaaS. So SaaS is not new. What makes you guys first talk about this dynamic, about polaris? What, what is it? Why is it first? >> So the way we see our customers use multiple clouds and multiple data centers is they have some applications running on premises. Some applications running in the cloud, they're building a lot of new applications in the cloud, so essentially cloud is is fragmenting their data and applications and we have Rubrik core product or cloud data management product, wherever they run their application, so Rubrik product runs on premises. Rubrik product runs in the cloud to protect the application. >> Was that the first dynamic that it's on-prem? It's oncloud, >> Yeah, that's our first product and then what we will working with our customers was that once we have this setup, how do you bring all of your applications and all of your data under the single system of record and that is the Rubrik Polaris Platform which is complimentary to our first hybrid cloud product were to the single system of record, which is a global catalog of all the applicants and data content as well as workflows as well as security as well as orchestration, and we expose this to open apis for Rubrik as well as other third party vendors to really build applications no matter where application runs. >> So these applications, the data management application that people or Rubrik will build on top of politics is for compliance, for governance, for auditing, for search across all the infrastructure. So you guys are offering also an ecosystem play with the Polaris. You're enabling others to build on top of it. Absolutely. This is kind of like force.com platform for all your data management. >> So we started salesforce, a Mulesoft had an announcement and that got a lot of attraction. What does that mean to you guys? Because that's. You see sap, salesforce has been very successful for a SaaS platform as well as Mulesoft. What does that acquisition mean to the marketplace and how do you guys fit into that dynamic vis-a-vis that trend? >> Salesforce did a great strategic acquisition or Mulesoft because they realize that if they combine applications on premises as well as in the cloud, then they create a single platform for all the structure data applications, but our view is that this is just half of the problem are that half of the problem is on a structured data across many applications and all the Meta data Rubrik. Polaris is our SaaS platform across on-premise cloud. A single system of record with Apis were Rubrik will deliver data management applications for control, for governance, for compliance, for security across all applications that enterprises are managing, whether they're. Are these applications run on premises or in the cloud, >> And the unstructured data too is that metadata you're talking about, it's critical data. >> It's metadata is application data is is all your unstructured data, >> So bottom line is announced that why would you put this in a single sound byte for customers? What does it mean for me if I'm a customer? For you guys, what's the value proposition of this new product? >> If you want to manage your business with compliance, with governance, with security and access Rubrik delivers a single platform for all your data management needs, >> Platform Polaris from Rubrik enabling an ecosystem first time, bringing all that data together from the data center people. Thanks for coming on the cube. Great to see you. Congratulations on all your success. Thank you so much for the opportunity and thanks for stopping by. I'm job here for cube conversation. Exclusive News here with Rubrik at theCUBE in Palo Alto. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat tech music) >> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's the Cube! covering, AWS re:Invent 2017 presented by AWS, intel, and our ecosystem of partners. >> Well, welcome back to the sands, we're here in Las Vegas, just off the strip, as the re:Invent show continues here with a really exciting day one. You talk about buzz on the show for it, the place has been jampacked since they opened the doors at 11 o'clock our time this morning, and continues to do so, and I imagine for the next two or three days, you're going to see a lot of people. 50,000 plus. A lot of exhibitors, a lot of people, a lot of buzz, a lot of excitement here around the AWS community. We have with us now, Chris Wahl, who is the chief technologist at Rubrik, and he knows so much about this space, it takes three hosts to surround him. >> It does, to talk to him. >> John Wahl is here, Lisa Martin to my left, Justin Warren on the far right. You're surrounded. >> I am, you've ganged up on me. >> Yeah right, and rightly so. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Justin can't wait. >> He's got the evil eye from Justin. >> Chris: This feels like a trap. >> There's some good history here going on, so we'll find out a little bit later on. First off, Chris, do welcome. Well, welcome the Cube. Tell us a little bit about Rubrik, and your place here and your feelings about the show. >> Yeah, yeah. So, Rubrik, about two and a half years in the market, about three and a half years old as a company. Really focused on solving the conundrum around, there's all this public cloud stuff out there, and everyone's kind of feeling the elephant with the blindfold on, describing it differently. And we're trying to figure out, how can we take that cloud type architecture that's out there in the world, and combine that with an almost 50 billion dollar TAM that is data protection, back up recovery archive. Put those two together to solve challenges within the enterprise is really struggling with. Onboarding into the cloud, and using those resources, as well as making sure their assets, be it the application, the data itself, or, a physical server, be protected and available for recovery in a really, really quick way. So that's kind of the high level pitch of Rubrik, around the last ten major releases of the product, and it's been a rocket ship, I've really enjoyed it. >> John: Great. >> So bigger focus in enterprise, or are you also playing with the startups and also helping the transition? >> That's a good question, I mean, originally we were kind of looking mid market, you know, like, let's kind of go for that sweet spot, but very early on, a lot of large enterprise customers came up and said, wow, you're fully restful API compliant, the full stack is distributed and scaled out, and really solves their problems, so they kind of pulled us into that space, and ever since, we've really embraced the large enterprise globally. It doesn't really matter where you are in the world, those are challenges that are kind of ubiquitous across verticals and the market. >> So, I've got a good storage and backup background, as you well know. >> Okay. >> There has been such a big shift in data storage and backup, and data protection in the last, say, three or five years. What do you think is driving that, because really, like backup recovery was always a hygiene function, it was boring, no one really wanted to spend any money on it, but now you're part of this guard of brand new ways of doing things, that has that part of the market being kind of exciting again. >> I almost feel like we got used to the horrible nature of that business. Because, as a technologist, I was a customer for about 13 years, I was in the channel for about five. And it was always, well, this is just the way it is, and you've got to put up with slower stores that were clunky, it was seen as an insurance policy. I think as the enterprise matured to the point, where everything else was amazing and hyper converged, and driven by APIs, and cloud is starting to eat up part of the data center, we finally saw, okay, this isn't going to stand, we can't operate in a model where an RTO is days, or even many hours, and it's really heavy lift, and I needed a full team of people to manage this stuff. So I think as the technology advanced, as well as kind of outpaced all of the data protection, software, and solutions are out there, it just kind of had to happen. And another thing, as cloud and object store also permeated the market, it really gave us a great opportunity to use that for long term retention. Beyond just the old tape and things like that. >> Yeah, okay. >> Yeah, that sounds fair. >> And what do you think has bene the biggest cultural change? Because, there's a lot of technology that goes into that, but you're talking about having whole teams of people who have to herd this stuff around with small little toothbrushes and stuff just to keep the thing running, whereas now, you can pretty much run it with one or two guys just sitting there, and go yeah, it just works. >> Well, it's similar to, remember when we went through virtualization, and it used to be whole armies of people managing all these pizza boxes, and tube servers, and there was just a lot of infrastructure and operation people necessary to run the data center, and then we virtualized, and I know my personal story was there was two of us managing 1,300 virtual machines. >> Wow! >> Right? So that scale is astronomical compared to what we're used to, we'll then apply that kind of mentality to data protection and it's yeah, it's a few minutes from one person, or distributed team that spends a few minutes a week, maybe a month, something like that, managing things more at the policy and the tag, and the meta data layer, and it's that journey all over again. So the nice part is we've done this before, we know it can be done, but kind of the hard part is, people are always the hardest part of the equation, and sometimes it's tough to put your hands off the handlebars of the bike and just say, I trust an intelligent system to manage this part of the stack, and I'm gonna go focus on where are we trying to go. >> Justin: Yeah, you know. >> Speaking of trust, you know, you talked about how your enterprise customers had pulled you into or up the chain there, a lot of what Andy Jussy said recently to John Furrier is, 18 billion dollar run rate, growing up 42% a year ... They haven't gotten this big with just startups alone. So he's talking about enterprise as really being on the precipice of this mass migration. How does being a young company, how does your relationship with AWS help give more credibility to Rubrik as a trusted advisor to these enterprises? >> Yeah, I'll kind of start at the end and work my way backwards. So we recently hit the advanced tier partner status with Amazon. And part of that I would site a couple of public references with Castalia schools, as well as Fuji Rabio, are two different companies in different parts of the market, but they're very much focused on, we need a partner that can bring us into the cloud, kind of on board us into that environment. AWS was the specific cloud provider they were looking to get into, without kind of operationally. That's a scary thing, you know? It's tough as an infrastructure, or as an operations focused engineer, or even as a developer I think sometimes, to say, I wanna take this data, and it represents my apps, and my servers, and my solution stack, and put that into public cloud. Either for archive and retention, or potentially to use our cloud instantiation solution that was recently renounced, where they can start building workloads into public cloud. So I think that's why, kind of at that point, we work backwards a little bit to say, as we work with the customers that we're looking to do that, before it was, well, you have to learn all this stuff, and really become super technically deep on it, and I love that article by the way, I thought it was really deep, but if you looked at this week in AWS, that by Quinny Pig on Twitter, he's always pointing out every week, the S3 bucket failure, because it's hard, cloud is really, really hard. So if you have that kind of abstraction layer that can make it really simple for customers, to on board in there. It's simple, but it's also abstracted from the nuances across multiple public cloud providers, including AWS. I think that's the magic sauce that really gets people excited about it. >> That abstraction also probably gives them a little bite more comfort, right? >> Exactly. >> Some of the sausage making, they don't have to see. >> Exactly, cuz part of our secret sauce, is as the data is entering into that environment, we're not just saying okay, it's there, done, it's now your problem. Part of our cloud data management story is that the data enters that environment, but we're constantly checking it, making sure it's valid, making sure that it's secure. We handle all of the encryption. The data efficiency. The whole end to end life cycle of the data is respected, whereas traditionally, it was, you just kind of scrape data out of the data center, you drop it off into an S3 bucket, you pray that it's going to be there when you need it, and who knows? Now it's IT offices problem. We don't just do the hand off and say good luck, we handle it from cradle to grave for all the data. >> Now, you mentioned a little bit ago, you were talking to Justin, you talked about the horrible nature of things four or five years ago, right? So, no matter what time you're in, there's always a horrible nature of things. There's always a problem, so now that whatever was the issue then, what is the issue now? As you, new capabilities will develop, it will open up a whole new Pandora's box of challenges and problems. You have unforeseen issues, so what do you guys, when you're looking at your headlights, twelve, eighteen months down the road, you say, oh yeah, this is our next one we've got to tackle, this is the baby we've got to get our arms around? >> For me more near term, it's around the transition from trusting infrastructure, to provide high availability and disaster recovery, and moving that more towards the application and the stack itself. So, holistically, in the past, you'd have two data centers, they'd replicate, one's for DR, one's not. The cloud wasn't really in that equation, and all of the redundancies was handled at the infrastructure layer. Well, okay, now, if we can kind of surround meta data around the application, provide instant search, global availability, replication, the ability to actually stand up those applications in a public cloud? Well now the question is, do I really need that infrastructure layer anymore? Do I need the second data center? Can't I just use public cloud, or an MSP, or someone that's providing Rubrik as a service as an example of a service to provide that for me? More long term, I tend to look at, kind of in the discussion that I saw between John and Andy Jassy, was around the part where I get really nerdy is around like server lists, and the ability to provide functions kind of in the data path. And now I start to imagine, okay, we're putting a lot of data for customers into public cloud and even into private object store resources, and there's the ability, I think there was Green Grass as an example, where you can kind of put that shim layer into the edge to do the function as the data's going in there. There's a lot of interesting opportunities that I'm looking forward to in the next year where, well, we already have an index of the data, we are already very cognizant and content aware when it comes to what we're protecting. Wouldn't it be cool if we could do more interesting things with the data in flight, as well as where it's ultimately resting, kind of like with the announcements with the media and the trans-coding and the video services that I think came out rather recently. So that's kind of the two stage answer to that question that I have. >> So Chris, one of the ways that AWS has succeeded, is by appealing to developers. And you're talking there about things that are in the application layer, that have nothing to do with infrastructure, and developers hate infrastructure. So what are some of the things that you're doing, that Rubrik is doing to appeal to developers specifically in being able to access their data and not have to manage it, as you say, the way we used to do it, which was, the very infrastructure centric problem? What are you using to expose the data and to manage it as a data problem, rather than an infrastructure problem? >> Well, I think that goes back to traditionally how we managed infrastructure. Especially on Prim, and it was all very manual, very imperative, meaning you're pulling the lever, and you're telling the system ... It's a dumb system that you're the intelligent layer of it and you have to control it. And that, it doesn't work in the cloud model at all, and it really, I don't think it works long term in the data center model. Because then I need, I always have to scale literally people to data. And that doesn't work. >> Yeah, humans don't scale. >> Right, we can't just get magically more of us. So what we've done differently from day one was designed a system where every component within the stack, even internal communications, are calling restful APIs, and the whole system is distributed. So there's no controller that you have to deal with, you don't have to become, you don't have to know anything about storage to use the product. It's not infrastructure bound, so you're able to control it completely through restful APIs, or through configuration management tools, cloud management platforms, etc. So if you're a developer looking to, alright, I have an application, I want to make sure that it's automatically protected as part of that process, and sent to AWS, and automatically build me a cloud instantiation, and EC2 is an instance ... Great, make one, two, maybe three API calls, you don't have to know anything about infrastructure, which is the panacea, no developer wants to like, dig into V lands and things like that. That's really cool, and it solves a very valid business case in that if one person can write the code, and it works, just repeat that process, and it scales infinitely. I don't need extra developers for that. >> So to be able to do that, I need to understand that that API exists, so what are you doing to actually show developers that hey, this thing is here and this is how it works? Here's something that you actually know how to do! How are you exposing that idea to the developers? >> Well, very early on, we worked with swagger, which ultimately has become the open API spec to that O, and so every node within our distributed system actually surfaces the entire API suite, in two formats. One, is like a playground, so you can, even if you're newer to APIs, maybe on the infrastructure side, you can kind of do a, try it now button, you can kind of say, what would happen? And it surfaces what the call would look like, and how to structure properly, and what the return codes are, but more importantly, there's also the why and the how of the API in a different kind of documentation suite, using redoc, where you can go in and literally see, okay, what's the mindset here? What's the use case? What's the example? And I feel like that's typically what's missing in a lot of these equations, where it's just, here is the nuts and bolts, here is the tactical information, here is, push this button, things happen. It's more like, here is why you would use it, here's an example, and a lot of the code to do that has already been created by our ranger team internally and made either exposed publicly as open source as privately as something that we share with out customer base. >> Cool. >> Well, Chris, you described, like you said, a rocket ship, right? You've been on for two and a half years, I think you better fasten that seatbelt, it's not going to slow down for you, I don't think. >> Chris: (laughing) I appreciate that. >> Which is a good thing, right? >> Chris: Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, it's all good. >> Chris: Yeah, I know. >> John: I hope you didn't feel ganged up on either, right? You came out here, it was okay? >> It's a pretty friendly crowd, I appreciate that. >> I think so. Chris Wahl from Rubrik joining us here as we continue our coverage live here on the Cube, we're at AWS's re:Invent, live in Las Vegas, back with more in just a bit. (soft tech music)

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas. It's theCUBE. Covering VMworld 2017. Brought to you by VMware and its ecosystem partners. >> Hi I'm Stu Miniman joined by John Troyer and we're at VMworld 2017. This is SiliconANGLE Media's production of theCUBE, the worldwide leader in live tech coverage. The show's hashtag is #VMworld. There's also a lot of sub-hashtags, so if I was going to make this one the VMworld three word, it's developers, developers, developers. Happy to bring onto the program first time guest Byron Schaller, who is the DevOp's practice lead at RoundTower and Rebecca Fitzhugh, who's Technical Marketing Engineer at Rubrik. Thank you both so much for joining us. >> Thank you for having us. >> Alright, Byron, I want to start with you. Both of you I've known through the community for a bunch of years but tell ya, how long have you called yourself a developer and, you know, tell us a little bit about what you do these days. >> These days I'm more of a friend to developers, I think, than an actual real developer myself but I started writing code professionally 20 years ago. I've been, kind of in an Ops role, and went back into Dev, and now try to help really bridge that gap and get Ops folks to write better code, and get Dev folks to have some more sympathy and empathy I guess for the Ops side as well. Try to get them to play nice together. >> Yep, but Byron, those of us who haven't been in tech in a while, last time I was coding we called it programming. (Byron laughing) So, I thought that shift happened like 15 years ago. But, Rebecca, tell us a little bit about your background, how you fit into the DevOps community. >> So I would say I am more of Dev adjacent. So I work in Technical Marketing as an Engineer at Rubrik, so while I do write some code and help with some of the integrations, I'm primarily public facing and helping evangelize our software, and work hand-in-hand with the developers as well. >> Absolutely, and maybe talk a little bit about that, you know, we know the Virtualization community, what's different about the developer community, and DevOps versus kind of the traditional administrators? >> One of the things that I've noticed that, in my opinion, is the difference between the events, like comparing VMworld to a DevOpsDay. VMworld is very technically focused, a lot of time. And when I go to DevOpsDays, I always notice they make an effort to show sessions on culture, and to talk a lot about culture of development, and what we can do better as a community. >> What's the connection here, between VMworld and the developer community, right? We're the VMworld has been, I dunno, how many VMworld's have there been Stu? We've been, there's been 15 of them or something? At least. So, very operationally focused, IT people who call themselves IT, operators maybe, even broader than that, Enterprise Architects, and now, we've been talking about DevOps for a few years. So, maybe, Byron, what's the relationship of DevOps to the VMware community? >> It really comes down to the API integration. And at what point do you stops being an Ops person if you're writing a bunch of API code, and you become a developer. That's become a lot fuzzier lately. >> Are you saying Ops people have to become developers? >> They don't have to, but a lot of them are going that way. There's API explorers now that make it really easy to write rest calls and things like that to kick off jobs, and it just makes their lives easier to adopt that trend. It's not that they have to, but if they want to, it's definitely there and moreso than it ever has been. >> Yeah, I definitely think that we're seeing more and more large enterprises, Microsoft, VMware and so on, moving away from kind of this proprietary model, and more into an open model where they want their APIs to be consumed, they want you to help improve their product, and they want you to write code that integrates with their software. >> I have another question about DevOps, right? So, developer plus operations, and breaking down that wall. Can you do DevOps if you don't Dev, right? There are IT shops that just consume packaged software, and they run them, and they do things in the cloud, and they do everything else, but that particular company doesn't make bespoke software, at least they don't think they do. So, can you do DevOps without Dev? >> No. >> Okay. >> So, it really comes down to the fact of most everyone writes code whether they think they do or not. They may not write core business apps, but they could write a lot of other integrations, or they have off-the-shelf software that they write customized reports for, whatever, but there is something going on, something is being created. And as long as you have that thing being created, you can have a DevOps model. But I think it's a lot broader than just in-house applications at this point. >> I mean even if you were writing a script, you're writing code, right? If you're creating Power Serialized scripts or PowerShell scripts to automate something in your environment, that's code. And that would absolutely fall into that DevOps mindset. >> Speaking of the show itself, I know a couple of years ago they had a little breakout with keynotes, and they've done some sessions, my understanding there isn't a dedicated developer track or mini Dev show inside of it. So what do the developers or people do in DevOps, what's attractive to them here at the show? >> There's always the hallway track, right? And then there's the side events like the vBrownBag, things like that where you see a lot people talking about Ansible and other things like that, that you won't see on the show floor itself. And I think with the hackathon tonight, and lots of stuff like that, there's a lot of adjacent activities that are very much worthwhile. >> You mentioned the hackathon, you participated last year, if I remember right, you won, your team won the hackathon. So, tell us a little bit about that experience, this is the third year they're doing it, so-- >> It was great, I mean it was just nice to see a lot of folks in the community come together to build interesting things out of nothing, in like three hours, and that's, doing that itself is just really kind of amazing to me, but then those projects, a lot of them have carried on and gotten adoption, and now there's going to be some things created long term, because of this one interaction. I think that's just really special. >> When I've loved to see the difference between last year and this years, I felt, while last year was amazing, and seeing the people write these scripts and these codes, it felt like it was a lot of shooting from the hip, and what I've noticed this year is that there's been a lot of pre-work done by these teams, these groups, that they've been talking and communicating for weeks, planning what they're going to code tonight. That's very exciting. >> The code program Code by VMware, I think they call it, it actually is expanding, they're doing a lot to touch both developers and kind of the API side of the IT, more traditional IT side. Rebecca, one way to characterize DevOps, or one element is I say part of DevOps would be time to value, right? Rapid time to value, we don't plan for a year, sit in a war room, and like hope we don't lose our jobs when we push the button to launch, you know, the next generation of whatever we're about to launch, right? We've recognized that's a hard way to go about launching something, so instead, we're more iterative, smaller bites, faster time to value. As you go out and talk with IT pros, like again, your commercial side, right? You have a product that has fast time to value, I mean, how much of a mindshift is having to happen inside IT where you can go, "Oh no, I could set this up in an afternoon, "and maybe I could write some code around it "over the next couple weeks," rather than, "I got to plan this out for a year "before I do anything." >> Yes, I mean I think we're definitely moving from kind of a bureaucratic type of development to more of an agile, where we have to iterate, and so, like in my experience, prior to joining Rubrik, I was very involved with VMware and did lots of virtualization stuff, and you would have like one major release a year. Right, and then a couple of updates, and there's a lot of planning that would go into it, and involved, and that gave a lot of lead time. And now, like working with Rubrik, we're on like a quarterly release cycle, and so we're just constantly, so I think a lot of its mindset. So, I don't want to say it's shooting from the hip because it's not, but it's just adapting and moving forward, and then getting ready for the next thing. There's not time to question and plan, it's we're doing this, and let's do it now. >> The thing I'd noticed is just in conversations and in the keynote, APIs were brought up more this year than I remember in previous years, you know you brought up the VMware Code Team, they've been doing the flings now for a couple years, so even if it might not be developer centric, it seems like they're adopting some of the things that you know, are attractive to what the developer community would do. >> Yeah, and there's a lot of really good marketing going on there too, especially around flings. Flings are great, and there are so many useful tools there, that people just don't know about until they get the press, and now that they're talking about it, there's a really great community built up around it, especially with VMware Code, I think is a great initiative, there's an awesome Slack channel that they have, and just getting the word out, more than word of mouth, and getting that stuff in the keynotes is so key to helping reach everybody else who's not already there. Word of mouth only goes so far when you have like the CEOs getting up there and talking about this as a core initiative, that's really important, we need to see more of that. >> Anything specific around the flings you could highlight, like you know, this one was really cool and it turned into something, or? >> The HTML5 client was a fling forever, and it was so much better than the actual web client. >> And now it's becoming the actual official supported client, and the older client is going away, finally. >> Yeah. >> Everyone's happy about that. >> It's very, there's stats feeder, is a super cool one that not many people know about but you can get all this information out of your vCenter, pump it into some kind of like noSQL database, and make these really creative reports, that just, there wasn't a way to do that before that existed, and something like that's really cool. >> Byron, as you go out and talk to IT pros and IT departments, you're trying to be a trusted adviser, you're bringing along a team from your company, are there elements of cultural change or kind of adaptability that when you go into a conference room and start giving your first presentations, and the questions that get asked, do you sometimes you go, what are the signs that you're going to go, "Oh this is going to go well," versus "Hoo boy, these folks are not ready yet." >> So we try to ask some probing questions to kind of pick a fight to be totally, not really pick a fight, but see who's going to take the bait, right? And then how communication resolves itself. And seeing that pattern happen, you know, okay, there's something missing or something as far as how the team constructed that leads to this animosity, right? Find that out as fast as possible, and then find a way to remediate that, is how you get that cultural change. But until you actually see it organically, it's hard to say well you know, just be more empathetic and hug it out, that all sounds nice, but you've got to really find what the dynamic is that's causing the tension or breakdown. >> John: Are there any particular signs that you could point to-- >> Yelling is a good one. (laughing) >> On a positive sign or a negative sign? >> Both sometimes. >> That group's not invited to this meeting, right? >> It's just a lot of finger pointing, it's a lot of you can tell they don't talk. And a lot of it starts with just having a conversation on a daily basis of what do you do, what's your job, how can I understand that, have that empathy, cause until you have that empathy, no one's going to care. And once you build up that, and get this understanding that, "Oh, what you do is valuable to the business as well," then people start to actually, you know, work, or I dunno, be friends or something at work, I don't know, it's really important to build that up. >> Byron, your title has DevOps in it, because you're addressing a function, but should there be people inside IT groups with a DevOps in their title, if you're here at VMware, and you're kind of coding, and you're a little bit interested in that, should you be looking for something, a title of DevOps? >> I think anybody can do DevOps. And I think that's something that we need to change our mindset on. I hear a lot of people say, "Why would I join the VMware Code community, "I don't write code," and it's, anybody can write code. It doesn't have to be the most beautiful elegant code in the world, you just creating a script, you've done it. Now contribute. Put your work on Github, let other people use it. You consume from other people, it's a community of sharing, share. >> That's great. >> It's all about contribution, right? It doesn't have to be code, you can write documentation, you can work on bug reports, there's so many things you can do that are not code related, that people can give back with. That's the important thing there. >> Reminds me a lot of just some of the discussion we've been having about community in general for a while. Rebecca, we're here at a big show, 20,000 plus people, do you spend all your time at meet-ups though, how do you deal with reaching kind of a broad community, or is it kind of smaller, more intimate things? >> I try and balance both, because I have obviously work obligations and I have speaking obligations, and then, but I do try and spend time one-on-one with people as well as at group functions, so I personally like to get out of my comfort zone, so like that was one of the big reasons I attend certain events, like the hackathon last year. My code is rudimentary. I don't want to pretend like I'm some amazing developer, but that was me getting out of my comfort zone and interacting with that community, because I knew that was a community I wanted to be more a part of. >> I guess the question is too, from like, your marketing role-- >> Mm-hmm. >> Do you have to go reach out to those thousands of meet-ups or, you know, how do you balance that kind of small versus large? >> So, yeah, I think like in a large group it becomes sort of an echo chamber in a way, where it's more of you talking at them than talking with them. I personally prefer to be in smaller type sessions, as well as one-on-one type discussions. I think we get more out of it that way. >> You mentioned DevOpsDays, that's a group independently organized, all over the world, kind of a meet-up user group on steroids all day, you've been to some of those as you said and that-- >> Yes, so one of the things I noticed from DevOpsDays that's different than a lot of user groups, is that a lot of user groups will jam pack the schedule, and you might have a 15 minute break there, and you have lunch, and that's it. Maybe a social hour afterwards. DevOpsDays, a lot of them create free spaces, of an hour, two hours, and sometimes, I think the one, I'm attending one in Detroit, in September, and I was looking at the schedule, and I think there's a three hour block of just talk to people, go and find your little community of people, talk to them, spend time with them, and then move onto another community and get to know each other. >> Byron, anything in open source community, and how it is different than, a little bit maybe, than this one here? >> The V community, if you want to call it that, it has been built up, is very unique, from an enterprise software standpoint, no other enterprise software company has what VMware has with that. It is a lot like the open source community, you go to something like OzCon or something, there's the same kind of interactions, the same kind of feel that we have here. >> John: Helping each other. >> Yes, I mean it's all about reaching out saying, "I don't know how to do this, someone help!" And, people saying, "Okay, this worked for me. "This hasn't." And just that feedback loop, and once you pay that forward to five more people, that's just really really great. You see it with the hang space here, the community, the sessions and things here, there are just so many people that want to volunteer and give back, there's not enough time to hear them all speak. And that's awesome. >> That's why we have things like vBrownBag. >> Yeah, right. >> Contribute there. >> There's so many different aspects of what's going on at the show, I'm curious if you have any, if you were talking to VMware and say, "Hey, next year, VMworld, you know, you should do this." Anything you'd like to add? >> Hmm. That's a really good question. >> That is a very good question. >> I mean firstly I'd love to see more developer track type items, especially as VMware is moving towards more consumable APIs in their platform, so I'd like to see more in that realm. >> Yeah, there could always be more work around that. I think I'd like to see more interaction, from the VMware Devs themselves. Talking about stuff going on, inside VMware, as much as they can I guess. That'd be super interesting, you don't see a lot of behind the curtains stuff here. And I think that'd be neat to see more of that. >> Yeah, I always love to look at the kind of similarities and differences between those communities. We do, we've done Red Hat Summit for a number of years, I'm going to be at the Open Source Summit, you know, coming up soon, we're at Amazon re:Invent, where the enterprise folks and the developers always argue about which keynote for them versus the other person, and striking that balance is always tough. Well, Byron, Rebecca, thank you so much for joining us here, really appreciate your insights onto what's happening in the community, and thanks for all you're doing there. For John Troyer, and I'm Stu Miniman, we've got lots more coverage here in three days of theCUBE at VMworld 2017. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> ANNOUNCER: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering VM World 2017. Brought to you by Vmware and its ecosystem partner. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman here with John Troyer and excited to welcome back to the program Chris Wahl, who's the Chief Technologist at Rubrik. Chris, thanks for joining us. >> Oh, my pleasure. It's my first VMworld CUBE appearance so I'm super stoked. >> Yeah, we're pretty excited that you hang out with, you know, just a couple of geeks as opposed to, what's it Kevin Durant and Ice Cube. Is this a technology conference or Did you and Bipple work for some Hollywood big time company? >> It's funny you say that, they'll be more tomorrow. So I'll allude to that. But ideally, why not hang out with some cool folks. I mean I live in Oakland. Hip Hop needs to be represented and the Golden State Warriors. >> It's pretty cool. I'm looking forward to the party. I know there will be huge lines. When Katie comes to throw down with a bunch of people. So looking forward to those videos. So we've been looking at Rubrik since, you know, came out of stealth. I got to interview Bipple, you know, really early on, so we've been watching. What you're on like the 4.0 release now right? How long has that taken and you know why don't you bring us up to speed with what's going on with Rubrik. >> Yeah, it's our ninth, our ninth major release over basically eight quarters. And along with that, we've announced we've hit like a 150 million dollar run rate that we've included when we started it was all about VMWare, doing back-ups providing those back-ups a place to land, meaning object store or AWS S3. And now it's, we protect Hyper-V, Acropolis from Nutanix, obviously the VMWare Suite, we can do archive to Azure, we can do, there's like 30 some-odd integration points. With various storage vendors, archive vendors, public cloud, etcetera. And the ulta release which is 4.0, just really extends that because now, not only can we provide backups and recovery and archive, which is kind of our bread and butter. But you can archive that to public cloud and now you can start running those workloads. Right, so what we call a cloud on, I can take either on demand or archive data that's been sent to S3, and I can start building virtual machines, like I said on demand. I can take the AMI, put it in EC2 and start running it right now. And I start taking advantage of the services and it's a backup product. Like, that's what always kind of blows my mind. This isn't, that's not the use case, it's one thing that we unlock from backup to archive data >> One of the challenges I usually see out there, is that people are like, oh Rubrik, you know they do backups for VMWare, how do you, you know, you're very much involved in educating and getting out there and telling people about it, how do you get over the, oh wait you heard what we were doing six months ago or six weeks ago, and now we're doing so much more. So how do you stay up with that? >> It's tough to keep up obviously, because every quarter we basically have either some kind of major or a dot release that comes out. I mean realistically, I set the table a little bit differently, I say, what are you looking to do? What are the outcomes that you're trying to drive? Simplicity's a huge one because everyone's dealing with I have a backup storage vendor and I have a storage vendor, and I have tape vendor, and all this other hodge podge things that they're dealing with. They're looking to save money, but ultimately they're trying to automate, start leveraging the cloud. Start really like, taking the headache out of providing something that's very necessary. And when I start talking about the services they can add, beyond that, because it's not just about taking a backup, leaving it in some rotting archive for 10 years, or whatever, it's really what can I do with the data once I have this duplicated and compressed, kind of pool, that I can start drawing from. And that's where people start to, their mind gets blown a little bit. Now that the individual features and check boxes sets, it is what it is, you know, like if you happen to need Hyper-V or Acropolis or whatever, it's really just where you are on that journey to start taking advantage of this data. And I think that's where people start to get really excited and we start white boarding and nerding out a little bit. >> Well Chris, so don't keep us in suspense, what kinds of things can you do once you have a copy of this data? It's still, it's all live, it's either on solid state or spinning disk or in the cloud somewhere. That's very different than just putting it on tape, so what do I do now, that I have all this data pool? >> So probably the most common use case is, I have VBC and a security group in Amazon. That exists today. I'm archiving to S3 in some way, shape, or form. Either IA or whatever flavor vessel you want. And then you're thinking, well I have these applications, what else can I do with them? What if I put it to a query service or a relational data base service, or what if I sped up 10 different copies because I need to for lode testing or some type of testing. I mean it all falls under the funnel of dev test, but I hate just capping it that way, because I think it's unimaginative. Realistically, we're saying here you have this giant pile of compute, that you're already leveraging the storage part of it, you the object store that is S3. What if you could unlock all the other services with no heavy lift? And the workload is actually built as an AMI. Right, so an ami, it's actually running an EC2, so there's no, you don't necessarily have to extend the Hyper Visor layer or anything like that. And it's essentially S3 questions, from the product perspective. It's you know, what security group, BCP, and shape of the format you want it to be. Like large, small, Xlarge, et cetera. That's it. So think about unlocking cloud potentials for less technical people or people that are dipping their toe in a public cloud. It really unlocks that ability and we control the data plane across it. >> Just one thing on that, because it's interesting, dev tests a lot of times, used to get shoved to the back. And it was like, oh you can run on that old gear, you know you don't have any money for it. We've actually found that it can increase, kind of the companies agility and development is a big part of creating big cool things out of a company, so you don't under sell what improving dev tests can do. So did you have some customer stories or great things that customers have done with what this capability has. >> Yeah, but to be fair, at first when I saw that we were going to start, basically taking VMWare backups and pushing that in archive and then turning those into EC2 instances of any shape or quantity. I was like, that's kind of crazy, who has really wanted that Then I started talking to customers and it was a huge request. And a lot of times, my architectural background would think, lift and shift, oh no, don't necessarily do that. I'm not a huge fan of that process. But while that is certainly something you can do, what they're really looking to do is, well, I have this binary package or application suite that's running on Elk Stack or some Linux distro, or whatever, and I can't do anything with that because it's in production and it's making me money, but I'd really like to see what could be done with that? Or potentially can I just eliminate it completely and turn it into a service. And so I've got some customers that completely what they're doing, they're archiving already and what they have the product doing is every time a new snapshot is taken and is sent to the cloud, it builds automatically that EC2 instance, and it starts running it. So they have a collection of various state points that they can start playing with. The actual backup is immutable, but then they're saying, alright, what if exactly what I kind of alluded to a little, what if I start using a native service in the cloud. Or potentially just discard that workload completely. And start turning it into a service, or refactor it, re platform it et cetera. And they're not having to provision, usually you have to buy infrastructure to do that. Like you're talking about the waterfall of Chinese stuff, that turns into dev stuff three years later. They don't have to do that, they can literally start taking advantage of this cloud resource. Run it for an hour or so, because devs are great at CDIC pipelines, let's just automate the whole stack, let's answer our question by running queries through jenkins or something like that. And then throw it away and it cost a couple of bucks. I think that's pretty huge. >> Well Chris, can you also use this capability for DR, for disaster recovery? Can you re hydrate your AMI's up there if everything goes South in your data center? >> Absolutely. I mean it's a journey and this is for dot zero. So I'm not going to wave my hands and say that it's an amazing DR solution. But the third kind of use case that we highlight with our product is that absolutely. You can take the work loads either as a planned event, and say I'm actually putting it here and this is a permanent thing. Or an unplanned event, which is what we all are trying to avoid. Where you're running the work loads in the cloud, for some deterministic period of time, and either the application layer or the file system layer, or even, like a data base layer, you're then protecting it, using our cloud cluster technology, which is Rubrik running in the cloud. Right there, it has access to S3 and EC2, you know, adjacently, there is not net fee and then you start protecting that and sending the data the other way. Because Rubriks software can talk to any other Rubrik's software. We don't care what format or package it's in. In the future we'd like to add more to that. I don't want to over sell it, but certainly that's the journey. >> Chris tell us about how your customers are feeling about the cloud in general. You know you've lived with the VM community for a lot of years, like many of us, and that journey to cloud and you know, what is Hybrid and multi-cloud mean to them, and you know, what you've been seeing at Rubrik over the last year. >> Yeah it's ahh, everybody has a different definition between hybrid, public, private-- >> Stu: Every customer I ever talked to will have a different answer to that. >> I just say multi cloud, because it feels the most safe And the technically correct version of that definition. It's certainly something that, everyone's looking to do. I think kind of the I want to build a private cloud phase of the journey is somewhat expired in some cases. >> Stu: Did you see Pat's keynote this morning? >> Yeah, the I want to build a private cloud using open stack and you know, build all my widgets. I feel that era of marketing or whatnot, that was kind of like 2008 or 2010. So that kind of era of marketing message has died a little bit. It's really just more I have on prem stuff, I'm trying to modernize it, using hyper-converge, or using software to find X, you know, networking et cetera But ultimately I have to start leveraging the places where my paths, my iya's and my sas are going to start running. How do I then cobble all that together. I mean at the sea level, I need visibility, I need control, I need to make executable decisions. That are financially impactful. And so having something they can look across to those different ecosystems, and give you actionable data, like here's where it's running, here's where it could run, you know, it's all still just a business decision, based on SLA. It's powerful. But then as you go kind of down message for maybe a director or someone's who's managing IT, that's really, someone's breathing down their neck, saying, we've got to have a strategy. But they're technically savvy, they don't want to just put stuff in the cloud and get that huge bill. Then they have to like explain that as well. So it kind of sits in a nice place where we can protect the modern apps, or kind of, I guess you can call them, modern slash legacy in the data center. But also start providing protection at a landing pad for the cloud native to use as an over watch term The stuff that's built for cloud that runs there, that's distributed and very sensitive to the fact that it charges per iota of use at the same time. >> Well Chris, originally Rubrik was deploying to customers as an appliance, right? So can you talk a little bit about that, right, you have many different options now, the customer, right? You can get open source, you can get commercial software, or you can get appliances, you can get SAS, and now it sounds like you're, there's also a piece that can run in the cloud, right? That it's not just a box that sits in a did center somewhere So can you talk about, again, what do customers want? What's the advantage of some of those different deployment mechanisms, what do you see? >> I'm not saying this as a stalling tactic, but I love that question. Because yes, when we started it made sense, build a turnkey appliance, make sure that it's simple. Like in deployment, we used to say it can deploy in an hour and that includes the time to take it out of the box and that only goes so far because that's one use case. So certainly, for the first year or so, the product that was where we were driving it, as a scale out node based solution then we added Rubrik edge as a virtual appliance. And really it was meant to, I have a data center and I'm covering those remote offices, type use cases. And we required that folks kind of tether the two, because it's a single node that's really just a suggesting data and bringing it back using policy. Then we introduced cloud cluster in 3.2 which is a couple of releases ago. And that allows you to literally build a four plus node cluster as your AWS, basically you give us your account info and we share the EMI with you or the VM in case of Azure and then you can just build it, right? And that's totally independent, like you can just be a customer. We have a couple of customers that are public, that's all they do, they deploy cloud cluster they backup things in that environment. And then they replicate or archive to various clouds or various regions within clouds. And there's no requirement to buy the appliance because that would be kind of no bueno to do that. >> Sure. >> So right, there's various packages or we have the idea now where you can bring your own hardware to the table. And we'll sell you the software, so like Lenovo and Cisco and things like that. It can be your choice based on the relationships you have. >> Wow Chris your teams are gone a lot, not just your personal team but the Rubrik team I walked by the booth and wait, I saw five more people that I know from various companies. Talk about the growth of like, you know Rubrik. You joined a year ago and it felt like a small company then. Now you guys are there, I get the report from this financial analyst firms and like, have you seen the latest unicorn, Rubrik and I'm like, Rubrik, I know those guys. And gals. So yeah absolutely, talk about the growth of the company. What's the company hiring for? Tell us a little bit about the culture inside. >> Sure, I mean, it's actually been a little over two years now that I've been there, it's kind of flying. I was in the first 50 hires for the company. So at the time I felt like the FNG, but I guess now, I'm kind like the old, old man. I think we're approaching or have crossed the 500 employee threshold and we're talking eight quarters essentially. A lot of investment, across the world, right, so we decided very early on to invest in Europe as a market. We had offices in Utruck in the Netherlands. And in London, the UK, we've got a bunch of engineering folks in India. So we've got two different engineering teams. As well as, we have an excellent, center of excellence, I think in Kansas City. So there's a whole bunch of different roots that we're planting as a company. As well as a global kind of effort to make sales, support, product, engineering, marketing obviously, something that scales everywhere. It's not like all the engineers are in Palo Alto and Silicone Valley and everyone else is just in sales. But we're kind of driving across everywhere. My team went from one to six. Over the last eight or nine months. So everything is growing. Which I guess is good. >> As part of that you also moved to Silicone Valley and so how does it compare to the TV show. >> Chris: It's in Oakland. >> Well it's close enough to Silicone Valley. >> It's Silicone Valley adjacent. I will say I used to visit all the time, you know. For various events and things like that. Or for VM World or whatnot. I always got the impression that I liked being there for about a week and then I wanted to leave before I really started drinking the kool aid a little heavily so it's nice being just slightly on the east bay area. At the same time, I go to events and things now. More as a local and it's kind of awesome to hear oh I invented whatever technology, I invented bootstrap or MPM or something like that. And they're just available to chat with. I tried it at that the, the sunscreen song, where he says, you know, move to california, but leave before you turn soft. So at some point I might have to go back to Texas or something to just to keep the scaley rigidity to my persona intact. >> Yeah, so you missed the barbecue? >> Well I don't know if you saw Franklin's barbecue actually burned down during the hurricane, so. >> No >> Yeah, if you're a, a huge barbecue fan in Austin, weep a tear, it might be a bad mojo for a little bit. >> Wow. Alright, we were alluding at the very beginning of the interview, you've got some VIP guests, we don't talk too much about, like, oh we're doing this tomorrow and everything, but you got some cool activities, the all stars, you know some of the things. Give us a little viewpoint, what's the goal coming into VM World this year and what are some of the cool things that you're team and the extended team are doing. >> Yeah, so kind of more on the nerdy fun side, we've actually built up, one of my team, Rebecca Fitzhughes build out this V all stars card deck so we picked a bunch of infuencers, and people that, you know friends and family kind of thing built them some trading cards and based on what you turn in you can win prizes and things like that. It was just a lot of other vendors have done things that I really respect. Like Solid Fire has the socks and the cards against humanity as an example. I wanted to do something similar and Rebecca had a great idea. She executed on that. Beyond that though, we obviously have Ice Cube coming in. He's going to be partying at the Marquis on Tuesday evening so he'll be, he'll be hanging around, you know the king of hip hop there. And on a more like fun, charitable note, we actually have Kevin Durant coming in tomorrow. We are shooting hoops for his charity fund. So everybody that sinks a goal, or ahh, I'm obviously not a basket ball person, but whoever sinks the ball into the hoop gets two dollars donated to his charity fund and you build it to win a jersey and things like that. So kind of spreading it across sports, music, and various digital transformation type things. To make sure that everyone who comes in, has a good time. VMWare's our roots, right? 1.0, the product was focused on that environment. It's been my roots for a long time. And we want to pay that back to the community. You can't forget where you came from, right? >> Alright, Chris Wahl, great to catch up with you. Thanks for joining us sporting your Alta t-shirt your Rubrik... >> I'm very branded. >> John Troyer and I will be back with lots more coverage here at VM World 2017, you're watching theCUBE.

>> Announcer: Live, from Silicon Valley, it's theCUBE, covering Google Cloud Next '17. (funky techno music) >> Welcome back to our live coverage here of Google Next 2017, an event that last year was focused only on Google Cloud. They've actually expanded a bit, they're talking about G Suite, talking about some of the devices, and they bring in a really broad and diverse community, so when I talk to the Google people, it's not one show, it's a handful of shows. I went to the analyst event. My guest for this segment is Chris Wahl, who came in through the community event. So, excited to get that angle. Chris, thanks so much for doing the drive with me from San Francisco down to Palo Alto. For those of us not in the area, it's a 45 minute drive, it's not too bad. It's a beautiful, sunny day. It's great to catch up with you and thanks for coming. >> Always glad to be on, love being a CUBE Alumni, so, I think it's my third time. >> Wow, a three-time Alumni. It's like if you've been a host of Saturday Night Live for like seven times, you know you get the special jacket. - Automatically. >> Things like that. You're getting up there. Three times. It's like, you're not quite in Pak Elsinger area, but you have passed, you've been on more than Andy Jassey now. >> Wow, cool. >> I think that that's pretty impressive. >> Bucket list, accomplished. >> Exactly, so, what brings you to the Google event and tell us a little bit about the community event. >> Yeah, to be honest, I thought it was a spam email at first. I just got an invite saying, hey, we have this Google event going on, and I'm not really plugged in to the Google Universe too much. So I said, cool, I'm interested, I'll take a look. Got invited out by Sarah Novotny to a community focus day. >> Host: Sarah's awesome. Also a CUBE Alum, of course. >> Yeah, Alum, and ran OSCON I think, as a boarder or some kind of management facility for quite a while. So yeah, the Google Cloud Next is this week but on Tuesday. They actually had a bunch of influencers, evangelists, community members, out to spend time with all sorts of Google-y Google-ers, talking around what their vision is around kind of bridging the gap to the enterprise, what their thought around Kubernetes, and just really the community in general were. Which was kind of cool because it was all fresh and clean and new for me. So, it was really great to taste the Kool-Aid, and see how delicious it could be. >> Yeah, so I'm curious what your take is. I remember I did a panel at Interop a couple of years ago, and it was like, basically, hyper-scale, you're-not-Google, so what do you need to do, how do you do it, do you just use Google stuff, can you code like Google, can you act like Google, or are you just an enterprise and you're forced to live in the past. >> I think over the last couple of years, the idea of the Sight Reliability Engineers come out and been more focused on the enterprise and kind of dovetailed into the Dev-Op story. So, it was really interesting to hear, not only trying to talk to the enterprise, but also how they're trying to get the enterprise to kind of stop being the traditional enterprise that it's been. Which I think entirely, it's something that we practitioners have always been trying to do. No one wants to be on-call all the time and fixing these flaming disasters and things like that. But at the same time, you have to recognize that moving that much intrinsic culture poison from one side to the next is hard. They're admitting that too, it's like, we wold love for you guys to be more Google-y, and to use the tools that we have here, but we're not sure you even know what the tools are or how to use them, or what kind of documentation is necessary, or what meet-ups we can go to find my people, you know, the practitioners. >> I want to channel our friends, the Geek Whisperers, and alright Chris, so how did you transition out of being a VMware guy to someone that does cool and interesting things now, because VMware is no longer the coolness. >> That's been the vibe, yeah. It's something I personally have been trying to, I don't think in any technology you want to be that technology specific. VMware, love it, have been doing it for 12 something years, but you don't just want to be pigeon-holed in that kind of silo. Which is actually why I wanted to come out and talk with the folks at Google around what they're doing to build a community. I think it was Sam something-or-other-- >> Host: Sam Ramji. >> Sam Ramji actually came up and said, you know, as long as we're going to exist as a company, we're going to have this community day. It's the first one they've done, and they plan to do it basically infinitely forever, because they realized they had the analysts, and things like that out there, they had all the engineers and developers, but what were they missing? The folk in the trenches that are trying to adopt and use this sort of technology. I like that aspect of it. There weren't any huge, mind-shattering results that were out there, except for I think, me personally, I like that Google kind of admitted that yeah, they hadn't been doing the best job around interfacing with the community and getting IT practitioners and operation-centric folks into the fold, welcoming into the bosom of Google, and that they were trying to work on that. And it's like, okay, awesome. Let's have a conversation, which the other half of the day was an un-conference, where we literally broke up into groups, that we decided ourselves as like a democracy of Google decision-making. We formed eight different groups. Some focused on containers, I actually sat in in a two hour session where we just kind of riffed on abstraction layers and where we should we start working. Is it at the container level, is it at the hypervisor level, is it at the virtual machine level? And it was neat because everyone had a completely different idea and background around that. I felt like I was an alien in that conversation for a lot of it 'cause they're working on solving problems that are totally alien to my world. So I liked all that. >> It's an interesting crowd when the server-less stuff got talked about in the keynote today-- >> Yes! >> There was a big clap and I loved Brian Stevens. He's like, functions are just fragments of code, and they get applause, you know, he's kind of like-- (Chris laughs) >> It's like either remark, I got applause for that. >> Yeah, yeah, it's pretty funny. But you know, that's the kind of people that come to this show, right? So, you checked out a thing called, what was it, Code Labs or something like that? Maybe you could talk a little bit about that. >> Yeah, yeah, there was, I had some notes there that I'd written down. Certification in Code Labs, specifically. So Code Labs was interesting 'cause it's a place that you can, you have to book it in advance, like a day in advance, and from about 11 to seven each day, they just have Google-y Google-ers, you know, very Google-y people out there that say alright, here's all our various APIs, such as the new one where you can query a video and say I'm looking for, I think in the keynote, they had "find me baseball" in this video, and it actually shows you in the timeline where baseball occurs. There's also things to do image tagging and things like that. And, I don't know, it might be difficult to grasp that API interaction at first. And so you can sit down, and they'll show you how to write code in the languages of your choice. Obviously Go is very prominent. I'm a PowerShell developer, so it's like, alright, how would you write that in Curl, and that's maybe our bridge to one another, since I don't know Go and they don't know PowerShell, or the person I was working with. So that was cool, to hear how they approach those things, because I've typically done it as an Ops person. I'm typically looking at it from the perspective of I'm trying to automate some task and feed it into an orchestration engine. And I'm not super deep on APIs in general, I like them, but ... That was cool, I liked that you're basically getting to meet with really, really awesome engineers and SREs to pick their brain and their vast decades of experience on writing code. To work with APIs and things that are Google-centric. So that was awesome. >> So it sounds like you didn't feel like this was a marketing show, right, - [Chris] No! >> that they bring in the engineers, the technical people, I mean it's not far being from San Franscisco from the Google-Plex, the Mothership is nearby. >> Thats's a good point because a lot of these shows have just become a sales pitch in a wolf's clothing or a conference clothing, and this was ... I've never met so many really, really talented engineers all concentrated in one spot. I mean, you've got the rock stars that I think everybody knows, like Sarah, and Kelsey, that are very available and personable, but you also have a whole army of people that have a huge amount of passion around writing code and understand what your problems are and wanting to talk to you. I felt like a person, which I've been a Google customer since, I guess, Google came out, you know, Google apps and things like that. This is really the first time I really started putting faces to the technical practitioners that work there, and they're really interested and excited with what my mundane kind of problems. So, that's kind of cool. >> Yeah, I found they're definitely, they're listening, they're talking, it's really good, because right, we at our firm, we've used Google for a while and it's like, oh wait I have a challenge. Who do I call, who do I email? Nope, you should just watch the YouTube video and use it. C'mon, aren't you smart enough to use these things right? You know, was kind of how we all felt for a while. Interesting. Kinder, gentler Google than we've knew in the past? >> They had the Google leaders circle and the various groups that you could join online, but it was just, you can't fake that kind of raw passion, and I sat down with some of the SREs at the community day, and it was really just, talk to me about what you do, and why, and what tools you use, and what can we do to be better? More specifically, the Dev Rel, the developer relations folks were just awesome. And they're like, is our title threatening? What meet-up should we go to? What can we do to make your life better? And I just kind of, at first, said a few comments and realized, no, this is real. They want to know my day one and day two operations, so that they can find the right tools, or if there isn't one, build one. And I don't know, that's great. I've never seen that at a conference before. So I'm hooked. I definitely plan to go again. >> Alright, so anything you didn't see that you were hoping to see, follow-up that you want to have, other cool stuff going on that you want to share? >> I almost want to do like a plea to Google that throughout the community today and at the conference, there's been a lot of commentary and some, kind of some references to, oh we don't want to tell you how to do things, we don't want to tell you how to build architecture in a certain way. Please do tell me how to do those things. At least give me a reference architecture, or some example environments, because I feel like a lot of it is just, here's some cool things you can do, kind of in isolation. Or here are some things with Kubernetes that kind of exist outside of reality. I'm looking for, alright, I don't have any of that stuff, how do I onboard into that? Here's a white paper, and that kind of jazz. >> Yeah, and we saw, you know, I hate to always bring up AWS, but AWS went from here's this giant toolbox with all these things to right, here's some services, here are some tracks, here are some, not wizards, but you know, templates you can follow for certain things. Here are people that are probably similar to you and, boy, with Google with their AI and ML and all their things that they can do to help us sort out all the TLAs that they've got to. (Chris laughs) You know, they should be able to help going forward because, yeah, Google should be able to personalize all that to be able to work a little bit better for us as opposed to us having to just kind of figure it out a little bit. I know you played with the Google Cloud a little bit yourself-- - Yeah. >> And it wasn't as simple as you were hoping, right? >> It was hard. (both laugh) I mean-- >> Host: C'mon, if you can't figure it out, you know-- >> I don't feel like I'm the sharpest tool in the shed, but I was like, I'm kind of the representative layman ops person, and it felt very convoluted, complex, the documentation was fragmented. I'm like, just give me the wizard so that I can start fishing for myself. I just do that first hit for free, and then I'll take care of it beyond that. So, that would be my one ask to Google as a whole, but otherwise I think the tooling and the people, and the culture are all there, it's just build a few more things and I think we've got some interesting entanglements at the enterprise level once that's done. >> Okay, want to give me the final word, what's going on with you other than, your hometown, your new hometown of Austin, Texas. South By coming, so I know there's a lot of music and fun going on but, what's happening in your world, what's happening with Rubrik? >> Oh yeah, I'll mention South By, definitely will be there, I will not be available online or anything. I'm going to be going into sequester mode and just listen to music with my co-host actually. If you listen to the Datanauts podcast, with Ethan Banks, he's going to come by. So, we'll be at the show I guess if you want to hang out with us, hit us up. Otherwise, Rubrik's been awesome. It's definitely a rocket ship ride and it was actually dove-tailed into quite a few conversations I had while at Google Next. Because movement of data into and around clouds is non-trivial, so that's where the Cloud Data Management world that we're in, kind of fits into that equation, and why I personally wanted to go to this show, but also professionally I thought that there'd be some inroads there to discuss with the other practitioners. >> Absolutely, the whole infrastructure side and how that plays in the public cloud, how it plays with Sass, there's a lot of those discussions going on. Congrats, you guys have been growing some good buzz. You guys have been hiring, too, so check Chris out for all that. We'll be back, lots more coverage here of the Google Cloud Next 2017, you're watching theCUBE. (funky techno music)

>> Narrator: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is breaking analysis with Dave Vellante >> Enterprise tech practitioners, like most of us they want to make their lives easier so they can focus on delivering more value to their businesses. And to do so, they want to tap best of breed services in the public cloud, but at the same time connect their on-prem intellectual property to emerging applications which drive top line revenue and bottom line profits. But creating a consistent experience across clouds and on-prem estates has been an elusive capability for most organizations, forcing trade-offs and injecting friction into the system. The need to create seamless experiences is clear and the technology industry is starting to respond with platforms, architectures, and visions of what we've called the Supercloud. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube Insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis we give you a preview of Supercloud 2, the second event of its kind that we've had on the topic. Yes, folks that's right Supercloud 2 is here. As of this recording, it's just about four days away 33 guests, 21 sessions, combining live discussions and fireside chats from theCUBE's Palo Alto Studio with prerecorded conversations on the future of cloud and data. You can register for free at supercloud.world. And we are super excited about the Supercloud 2 lineup of guests whereas Supercloud 22 in August, was all about refining the definition of Supercloud testing its technical feasibility and understanding various deployment models. Supercloud 2 features practitioners, technologists and analysts discussing what customers need with real-world examples of Supercloud and will expose thinking around a new breed of cross-cloud apps, data apps, if you will that change the way machines and humans interact with each other. Now the example we'd use if you think about applications today, say a CRM system, sales reps, what are they doing? They're entering data into opportunities they're choosing products they're importing contacts, et cetera. And sure the machine can then take all that data and spit out a forecast by rep, by region, by product, et cetera. But today's applications are largely about filling in forms and or codifying processes. In the future, the Supercloud community sees a new breed of applications emerging where data resides on different clouds, in different data storages, databases, Lakehouse, et cetera. And the machine uses AI to inspect the e-commerce system the inventory data, supply chain information and other systems, and puts together a plan without any human intervention whatsoever. Think about a system that orchestrates people, places and things like an Uber for business. So at Supercloud 2, you'll hear about this vision along with some of today's challenges facing practitioners. Zhamak Dehghani, the founder of Data Mesh is a headliner. Kit Colbert also is headlining. He laid out at the first Supercloud an initial architecture for what that's going to look like. That was last August. And he's going to present his most current thinking on the topic. Veronika Durgin of Sachs will be featured and talk about data sharing across clouds and you know what she needs in the future. One of the main highlights of Supercloud 2 is a dive into Walmart's Supercloud. Other featured practitioners include Western Union Ionis Pharmaceuticals, Warner Media. We've got deep, deep technology dives with folks like Bob Muglia, David Flynn Tristan Handy of DBT Labs, Nir Zuk, the founder of Palo Alto Networks focused on security. Thomas Hazel, who's going to talk about a new type of database for Supercloud. It's several analysts including Keith Townsend Maribel Lopez, George Gilbert, Sanjeev Mohan and so many more guests, we don't have time to list them all. They're all up on supercloud.world with a full agenda, so you can check that out. Now let's take a look at some of the things that we're exploring in more detail starting with the Walmart Cloud native platform, they call it WCNP. We definitely see this as a Supercloud and we dig into it with Jack Greenfield. He's the head of architecture at Walmart. Here's a quote from Jack. "WCNP is an implementation of Kubernetes for the Walmart ecosystem. We've taken Kubernetes off the shelf as open source." By the way, they do the same thing with OpenStack. "And we have integrated it with a number of foundational services that provide other aspects of our computational environment. Kubernetes off the shelf doesn't do everything." And so what Walmart chose to do, they took a do-it-yourself approach to build a Supercloud for a variety of reasons that Jack will explain, along with Walmart's so-called triplet architecture connecting on-prem, Azure and GCP. No surprise, there's no Amazon at Walmart for obvious reasons. And what they do is they create a common experience for devs across clouds. Jack is going to talk about how Walmart is evolving its Supercloud in the future. You don't want to miss that. Now, next, let's take a look at how Veronica Durgin of SAKS thinks about data sharing across clouds. Data sharing we think is a potential killer use case for Supercloud. In fact, let's hear it in Veronica's own words. Please play the clip. >> How do we talk to each other? And more importantly, how do we data share? You know, I work with data, you know this is what I do. So if you know I want to get data from a company that's using, say Google, how do we share it in a smooth way where it doesn't have to be this crazy I don't know, SFTP file moving? So that's where I think Supercloud comes to me in my mind, is like practical applications. How do we create that mesh, that network that we can easily share data with each other? >> Now data mesh is a possible architectural approach that will enable more facile data sharing and the monetization of data products. You'll hear Zhamak Dehghani live in studio talking about what standards are missing to make this vision a reality across the Supercloud. Now one of the other things that we're really excited about is digging deeper into the right approach for Supercloud adoption. And we're going to share a preview of a debate that's going on right now in the community. Bob Muglia, former CEO of Snowflake and Microsoft Exec was kind enough to spend some time looking at the community's supercloud definition and he felt that it needed to be simplified. So in near real time he came up with the following definition that we're showing here. I'll read it. "A Supercloud is a platform that provides programmatically consistent services hosted on heterogeneous cloud providers." So not only did Bob simplify the initial definition he's stressed that the Supercloud is a platform versus an architecture implying that the platform provider eg Snowflake, VMware, Databricks, Cohesity, et cetera is responsible for determining the architecture. Now interestingly in the shared Google doc that the working group uses to collaborate on the supercloud de definition, Dr. Nelu Mihai who is actually building a Supercloud responded as follows to Bob's assertion "We need to avoid creating many Supercloud platforms with their own architectures. If we do that, then we create other proprietary clouds on top of existing ones. We need to define an architecture of how Supercloud interfaces with all other clouds. What is the information model? What is the execution model and how users will interact with Supercloud?" What does this seemingly nuanced point tell us and why does it matter? Well, history suggests that de facto standards will emerge more quickly to resolve real world practitioner problems and catch on more quickly than consensus-based architectures and standards-based architectures. But in the long run, the ladder may serve customers better. So we'll be exploring this topic in more detail in Supercloud 2, and of course we'd love to hear what you think platform, architecture, both? Now one of the real technical gurus that we'll have in studio at Supercloud two is David Flynn. He's one of the people behind the the movement that enabled enterprise flash adoption, that craze. And he did that with Fusion IO and he is now working on a system to enable read write data access to any user in any application in any data center or on any cloud anywhere. So think of this company as a Supercloud enabler. Allow me to share an excerpt from a conversation David Flore and I had with David Flynn last year. He as well gave a lot of thought to the Supercloud definition and was really helpful with an opinionated point of view. He said something to us that was, we thought relevant. "What is the operating system for a decentralized cloud? The main two functions of an operating system or an operating environment are one the process scheduler and two, the file system. The strongest argument for supercloud is made when you go down to the platform layer and talk about it as an operating environment on which you can run all forms of applications." So a couple of implications here that will be exploring with David Flynn in studio. First we're inferring from his comment that he's in the platform camp where the platform owner is responsible for the architecture and there are obviously trade-offs there and benefits but we'll have to clarify that with him. And second, he's basically saying, you kill the concept the further you move up the stack. So the weak, the further you move the stack the weaker the supercloud argument becomes because it's just becoming SaaS. Now this is something we're going to explore to better understand is thinking on this, but also whether the existing notion of SaaS is changing and whether or not a new breed of Supercloud apps will emerge. Which brings us to this really interesting fellow that George Gilbert and I RIFed with ahead of Supercloud two. Tristan Handy, he's the founder and CEO of DBT Labs and he has a highly opinionated and technical mind. Here's what he said, "One of the things that we still don't know how to API-ify is concepts that live inside of your data warehouse inside of your data lake. These are core concepts that the business should be able to create applications around very easily. In fact, that's not the case because it involves a lot of data engineering pipeline and other work to make these available. So if you really want to make it easy to create these data experiences for users you need to have an ability to describe these metrics and then to turn them into APIs to make them accessible to application developers who have literally no idea how they're calculated behind the scenes and they don't need to." A lot of implications to this statement that will explore at Supercloud two versus Jamma Dani's data mesh comes into play here with her critique of hyper specialized data pipeline experts with little or no domain knowledge. Also the need for simplified self-service infrastructure which Kit Colbert is likely going to touch upon. Veronica Durgin of SAKS and her ideal state for data shearing along with Harveer Singh of Western Union. They got to deal with 200 locations around the world in data privacy issues, data sovereignty how do you share data safely? Same with Nick Taylor of Ionis Pharmaceutical. And not to blow your mind but Thomas Hazel and Bob Muglia deposit that to make data apps a reality across the Supercloud you have to rethink everything. You can't just let in memory databases and caching architectures take care of everything in a brute force manner. Rather you have to get down to really detailed levels even things like how data is laid out on disk, ie flash and think about rewriting applications for the Supercloud and the MLAI era. All of this and more at Supercloud two which wouldn't be complete without some data. So we pinged our friends from ETR Eric Bradley and Darren Bramberm to see if they had any data on Supercloud that we could tap. And so we're going to be analyzing a number of the players as well at Supercloud two. Now, many of you are familiar with this graphic here we show some of the players involved in delivering or enabling Supercloud-like capabilities. On the Y axis is spending momentum and on the horizontal accesses market presence or pervasiveness in the data. So netscore versus what they call overlap or end in the data. And the table insert shows how the dots are plotted now not to steal ETR's thunder but the first point is you really can't have supercloud without the hyperscale cloud platforms which is shown on this graphic. But the exciting aspect of Supercloud is the opportunity to build value on top of that hyperscale infrastructure. Snowflake here continues to show strong spending velocity as those Databricks, Hashi, Rubrik. VMware Tanzu, which we all put under the magnifying glass after the Broadcom announcements, is also showing momentum. Unfortunately due to a scheduling conflict we weren't able to get Red Hat on the program but they're clearly a player here. And we've put Cohesity and Veeam on the chart as well because backup is a likely use case across clouds and on-premises. And now one other call out that we drill down on at Supercloud two is CloudFlare, which actually uses the term supercloud maybe in a different way. They look at Supercloud really as you know, serverless on steroids. And so the data brains at ETR will have more to say on this topic at Supercloud two along with many others. Okay, so why should you attend Supercloud two? What's in it for me kind of thing? So first of all, if you're a practitioner and you want to understand what the possibilities are for doing cross-cloud services for monetizing data how your peers are doing data sharing, how some of your peers are actually building out a Supercloud you're going to get real world input from practitioners. If you're a technologist, you're trying to figure out various ways to solve problems around data, data sharing, cross-cloud service deployment there's going to be a number of deep technology experts that are going to share how they're doing it. We're also going to drill down with Walmart into a practical example of Supercloud with some other examples of how practitioners are dealing with cross-cloud complexity. Some of them, by the way, are kind of thrown up their hands and saying, Hey, we're going mono cloud. And we'll talk about the potential implications and dangers and risks of doing that. And also some of the benefits. You know, there's a question, right? Is Supercloud the same wine new bottle or is it truly something different that can drive substantive business value? So look, go to Supercloud.world it's January 17th at 9:00 AM Pacific. You can register for free and participate directly in the program. Okay, that's a wrap. I want to give a shout out to the Supercloud supporters. VMware has been a great partner as our anchor sponsor Chaos Search Proximo, and Alura as well. For contributing to the effort I want to thank Alex Myerson who's on production and manages the podcast. Ken Schiffman is his supporting cast as well. Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight to help get the word out on social media and at our newsletters. And Rob Ho is our editor-in-chief over at Silicon Angle. Thank you all. Remember, these episodes are all available as podcast. Wherever you listen we really appreciate the support that you've given. We just saw some stats from from Buzz Sprout, we hit the top 25% we're almost at 400,000 downloads last year. So really appreciate your participation. All you got to do is search Breaking Analysis podcast and you'll find those I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. Or if you want to get ahold of me you can email me directly at David.Vellante@siliconangle.com or dm me DVellante or comment on our LinkedIn post. I want you to check out etr.ai. They've got the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next week at Supercloud two or next time on breaking analysis. (light music)

>> From The Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, bringing you data driven insights from The Cube at ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> The reverse momentum in tech stocks caused by rising interest rates, less attractive discounted cash flow models, and more tepid forward guidance, can be easily measured by public market valuations. And while there's lots of discussion about the impact on private companies and cash runway and 409A valuations, measuring the performance of non-public companies isn't as easy. IPOs have dried up and public statements by private companies, of course, they accentuate the good and they kind of hide the bad. Real data, unless you're an insider, is hard to find. Hello and welcome to this week's "Wikibon Cube Insights" powered by ETR. In this "Breaking Analysis", we unlock some of the secrets that non-public, emerging tech companies may or may not be sharing. And we do this by introducing you to a capability from ETR that we've not exposed you to over the past couple of years, it's called the Emerging Technologies Survey, and it is packed with sentiment data and performance data based on surveys of more than a thousand CIOs and IT buyers covering more than 400 companies. And we've invited back our colleague, Erik Bradley of ETR to help explain the survey and the data that we're going to cover today. Erik, this survey is something that I've not personally spent much time on, but I'm blown away at the data. It's really unique and detailed. First of all, welcome. Good to see you again. >> Great to see you too, Dave, and I'm really happy to be talking about the ETS or the Emerging Technology Survey. Even our own clients of constituents probably don't spend as much time in here as they should. >> Yeah, because there's so much in the mainstream, but let's pull up a slide to bring out the survey composition. Tell us about the study. How often do you run it? What's the background and the methodology? >> Yeah, you were just spot on the way you were talking about the private tech companies out there. So what we did is we decided to take all the vendors that we track that are not yet public and move 'em over to the ETS. And there isn't a lot of information out there. If you're not in Silicon (indistinct), you're not going to get this stuff. So PitchBook and Tech Crunch are two out there that gives some data on these guys. But what we really wanted to do was go out to our community. We have 6,000, ITDMs in our community. We wanted to ask them, "Are you aware of these companies? And if so, are you allocating any resources to them? Are you planning to evaluate them," and really just kind of figure out what we can do. So this particular survey, as you can see, 1000 plus responses, over 450 vendors that we track. And essentially what we're trying to do here is talk about your evaluation and awareness of these companies and also your utilization. And also if you're not utilizing 'em, then we can also figure out your sales conversion or churn. So this is interesting, not only for the ITDMs themselves to figure out what their peers are evaluating and what they should put in POCs against the big guys when contracts come up. But it's also really interesting for the tech vendors themselves to see how they're performing. >> And you can see 2/3 of the respondents are director level of above. You got 28% is C-suite. There is of course a North America bias, 70, 75% is North America. But these smaller companies, you know, that's when they start doing business. So, okay. We're going to do a couple of things here today. First, we're going to give you the big picture across the sectors that ETR covers within the ETS survey. And then we're going to look at the high and low sentiment for the larger private companies. And then we're going to do the same for the smaller private companies, the ones that don't have as much mindshare. And then I'm going to put those two groups together and we're going to look at two dimensions, actually three dimensions, which companies are being evaluated the most. Second, companies are getting the most usage and adoption of their offerings. And then third, which companies are seeing the highest churn rates, which of course is a silent killer of companies. And then finally, we're going to look at the sentiment and mindshare for two key areas that we like to cover often here on "Breaking Analysis", security and data. And data comprises database, including data warehousing, and then big data analytics is the second part of data. And then machine learning and AI is the third section within data that we're going to look at. Now, one other thing before we get into it, ETR very often will include open source offerings in the mix, even though they're not companies like TensorFlow or Kubernetes, for example. And we'll call that out during this discussion. The reason this is done is for context, because everyone is using open source. It is the heart of innovation and many business models are super glued to an open source offering, like take MariaDB, for example. There's the foundation and then there's with the open source code and then there, of course, the company that sells services around the offering. Okay, so let's first look at the highest and lowest sentiment among these private firms, the ones that have the highest mindshare. So they're naturally going to be somewhat larger. And we do this on two dimensions, sentiment on the vertical axis and mindshare on the horizontal axis and note the open source tool, see Kubernetes, Postgres, Kafka, TensorFlow, Jenkins, Grafana, et cetera. So Erik, please explain what we're looking at here, how it's derived and what the data tells us. >> Certainly, so there is a lot here, so we're going to break it down first of all by explaining just what mindshare and net sentiment is. You explain the axis. We have so many evaluation metrics, but we need to aggregate them into one so that way we can rank against each other. Net sentiment is really the aggregation of all the positive and subtracting out the negative. So the net sentiment is a very quick way of looking at where these companies stand versus their peers in their sectors and sub sectors. Mindshare is basically the awareness of them, which is good for very early stage companies. And you'll see some names on here that are obviously been around for a very long time. And they're clearly be the bigger on the axis on the outside. Kubernetes, for instance, as you mentioned, is open source. This de facto standard for all container orchestration, and it should be that far up into the right, because that's what everyone's using. In fact, the open source leaders are so prevalent in the emerging technology survey that we break them out later in our analysis, 'cause it's really not fair to include them and compare them to the actual companies that are providing the support and the security around that open source technology. But no survey, no analysis, no research would be complete without including these open source tech. So what we're looking at here, if I can just get away from the open source names, we see other things like Databricks and OneTrust . They're repeating as top net sentiment performers here. And then also the design vendors. People don't spend a lot of time on 'em, but Miro and Figma. This is their third survey in a row where they're just dominating that sentiment overall. And Adobe should probably take note of that because they're really coming after them. But Databricks, we all know probably would've been a public company by now if the market hadn't turned, but you can see just how dominant they are in a survey of nothing but private companies. And we'll see that again when we talk about the database later. >> And I'll just add, so you see automation anywhere on there, the big UiPath competitor company that was not able to get to the public markets. They've been trying. Snyk, Peter McKay's company, they've raised a bunch of money, big security player. They're doing some really interesting things in developer security, helping developers secure the data flow, H2O.ai, Dataiku AI company. We saw them at the Snowflake Summit. Redis Labs, Netskope and security. So a lot of names that we know that ultimately we think are probably going to be hitting the public market. Okay, here's the same view for private companies with less mindshare, Erik. Take us through this one. >> On the previous slide too real quickly, I wanted to pull that security scorecard and we'll get back into it. But this is a newcomer, that I couldn't believe how strong their data was, but we'll bring that up in a second. Now, when we go to the ones of lower mindshare, it's interesting to talk about open source, right? Kubernetes was all the way on the top right. Everyone uses containers. Here we see Istio up there. Not everyone is using service mesh as much. And that's why Istio is in the smaller breakout. But still when you talk about net sentiment, it's about the leader, it's the highest one there is. So really interesting to point out. Then we see other names like Collibra in the data side really performing well. And again, as always security, very well represented here. We have Aqua, Wiz, Armis, which is a standout in this survey this time around. They do IoT security. I hadn't even heard of them until I started digging into the data here. And I couldn't believe how well they were doing. And then of course you have AnyScale, which is doing a second best in this and the best name in the survey Hugging Face, which is a machine learning AI tool. Also doing really well on a net sentiment, but they're not as far along on that access of mindshare just yet. So these are again, emerging companies that might not be as well represented in the enterprise as they will be in a couple of years. >> Hugging Face sounds like something you do with your two year old. Like you said, you see high performers, AnyScale do machine learning and you mentioned them. They came out of Berkeley. Collibra Governance, InfluxData is on there. InfluxDB's a time series database. And yeah, of course, Alex, if you bring that back up, you get a big group of red dots, right? That's the bad zone, I guess, which Sisense does vis, Yellowbrick Data is a NPP database. How should we interpret the red dots, Erik? I mean, is it necessarily a bad thing? Could it be misinterpreted? What's your take on that? >> Sure, well, let me just explain the definition of it first from a data science perspective, right? We're a data company first. So the gray dots that you're seeing that aren't named, that's the mean that's the average. So in order for you to be on this chart, you have to be at least one standard deviation above or below that average. So that gray is where we're saying, "Hey, this is where the lump of average comes in. This is where everyone normally stands." So you either have to be an outperformer or an underperformer to even show up in this analysis. So by definition, yes, the red dots are bad. You're at least one standard deviation below the average of your peers. It's not where you want to be. And if you're on the lower left, not only are you not performing well from a utilization or an actual usage rate, but people don't even know who you are. So that's a problem, obviously. And the VCs and the PEs out there that are backing these companies, they're the ones who mostly are interested in this data. >> Yeah. Oh, that's great explanation. Thank you for that. No, nice benchmarking there and yeah, you don't want to be in the red. All right, let's get into the next segment here. Here going to look at evaluation rates, adoption and the all important churn. First new evaluations. Let's bring up that slide. And Erik, take us through this. >> So essentially I just want to explain what evaluation means is that people will cite that they either plan to evaluate the company or they're currently evaluating. So that means we're aware of 'em and we are choosing to do a POC of them. And then we'll see later how that turns into utilization, which is what a company wants to see, awareness, evaluation, and then actually utilizing them. That's sort of the life cycle for these emerging companies. So what we're seeing here, again, with very high evaluation rates. H2O, we mentioned. SecurityScorecard jumped up again. Chargebee, Snyk, Salt Security, Armis. A lot of security names are up here, Aqua, Netskope, which God has been around forever. I still can't believe it's in an Emerging Technology Survey But so many of these names fall in data and security again, which is why we decided to pick those out Dave. And on the lower side, Vena, Acton, those unfortunately took the dubious award of the lowest evaluations in our survey, but I prefer to focus on the positive. So SecurityScorecard, again, real standout in this one, they're in a security assessment space, basically. They'll come in and assess for you how your security hygiene is. And it's an area of a real interest right now amongst our ITDM community. >> Yeah, I mean, I think those, and then Arctic Wolf is up there too. They're doing managed services. You had mentioned Netskope. Yeah, okay. All right, let's look at now adoption. These are the companies whose offerings are being used the most and are above that standard deviation in the green. Take us through this, Erik. >> Sure, yet again, what we're looking at is, okay, we went from awareness, we went to evaluation. Now it's about utilization, which means a survey respondent's going to state "Yes, we evaluated and we plan to utilize it" or "It's already in our enterprise and we're actually allocating further resources to it." Not surprising, again, a lot of open source, the reason why, it's free. So it's really easy to grow your utilization on something that's free. But as you and I both know, as Red Hat proved, there's a lot of money to be made once the open source is adopted, right? You need the governance, you need the security, you need the support wrapped around it. So here we're seeing Kubernetes, Postgres, Apache Kafka, Jenkins, Grafana. These are all open source based names. But if we're looking at names that are non open source, we're going to see Databricks, Automation Anywhere, Rubrik all have the highest mindshare. So these are the names, not surprisingly, all names that probably should have been public by now. Everyone's expecting an IPO imminently. These are the names that have the highest mindshare. If we talk about the highest utilization rates, again, Miro and Figma pop up, and I know they're not household names, but they are just dominant in this survey. These are applications that are meant for design software and, again, they're going after an Autodesk or a CAD or Adobe type of thing. It is just dominant how high the utilization rates are here, which again is something Adobe should be paying attention to. And then you'll see a little bit lower, but also interesting, we see Collibra again, we see Hugging Face again. And these are names that are obviously in the data governance, ML, AI side. So we're seeing a ton of data, a ton of security and Rubrik was interesting in this one, too, high utilization and high mindshare. We know how pervasive they are in the enterprise already. >> Erik, Alex, keep that up for a second, if you would. So yeah, you mentioned Rubrik. Cohesity's not on there. They're sort of the big one. We're going to talk about them in a moment. Puppet is interesting to me because you remember the early days of that sort of space, you had Puppet and Chef and then you had Ansible. Red Hat bought Ansible and then Ansible really took off. So it's interesting to see Puppet on there as well. Okay. So now let's look at the churn because this one is where you don't want to be. It's, of course, all red 'cause churn is bad. Take us through this, Erik. >> Yeah, definitely don't want to be here and I don't love to dwell on the negative. So we won't spend as much time. But to your point, there's one thing I want to point out that think it's important. So you see Rubrik in the same spot, but Rubrik has so many citations in our survey that it actually would make sense that they're both being high utilization and churn just because they're so well represented. They have such a high overall representation in our survey. And the reason I call that out is Cohesity. Cohesity has an extremely high churn rate here about 17% and unlike Rubrik, they were not on the utilization side. So Rubrik is seeing both, Cohesity is not. It's not being utilized, but it's seeing a high churn. So that's the way you can look at this data and say, "Hm." Same thing with Puppet. You noticed that it was on the other slide. It's also on this one. So basically what it means is a lot of people are giving Puppet a shot, but it's starting to churn, which means it's not as sticky as we would like. One that was surprising on here for me was Tanium. It's kind of jumbled in there. It's hard to see in the middle, but Tanium, I was very surprised to see as high of a churn because what I do hear from our end user community is that people that use it, like it. It really kind of spreads into not only vulnerability management, but also that endpoint detection and response side. So I was surprised by that one, mostly to see Tanium in here. Mural, again, was another one of those application design softwares that's seeing a very high churn as well. >> So you're saying if you're in both... Alex, bring that back up if you would. So if you're in both like MariaDB is for example, I think, yeah, they're in both. They're both green in the previous one and red here, that's not as bad. You mentioned Rubrik is going to be in both. Cohesity is a bit of a concern. Cohesity just brought on Sanjay Poonen. So this could be a go to market issue, right? I mean, 'cause Cohesity has got a great product and they got really happy customers. So they're just maybe having to figure out, okay, what's the right ideal customer profile and Sanjay Poonen, I guarantee, is going to have that company cranking. I mean they had been doing very well on the surveys and had fallen off of a bit. The other interesting things wondering the previous survey I saw Cvent, which is an event platform. My only reason I pay attention to that is 'cause we actually have an event platform. We don't sell it separately. We bundle it as part of our offerings. And you see Hopin on here. Hopin raised a billion dollars during the pandemic. And we were like, "Wow, that's going to blow up." And so you see Hopin on the churn and you didn't see 'em in the previous chart, but that's sort of interesting. Like you said, let's not kind of dwell on the negative, but you really don't. You know, churn is a real big concern. Okay, now we're going to drill down into two sectors, security and data. Where data comprises three areas, database and data warehousing, machine learning and AI and big data analytics. So first let's take a look at the security sector. Now this is interesting because not only is it a sector drill down, but also gives an indicator of how much money the firm has raised, which is the size of that bubble. And to tell us if a company is punching above its weight and efficiently using its venture capital. Erik, take us through this slide. Explain the dots, the size of the dots. Set this up please. >> Yeah. So again, the axis is still the same, net sentiment and mindshare, but what we've done this time is we've taken publicly available information on how much capital company is raised and that'll be the size of the circle you see around the name. And then whether it's green or red is basically saying relative to the amount of money they've raised, how are they doing in our data? So when you see a Netskope, which has been around forever, raised a lot of money, that's why you're going to see them more leading towards red, 'cause it's just been around forever and kind of would expect it. Versus a name like SecurityScorecard, which is only raised a little bit of money and it's actually performing just as well, if not better than a name, like a Netskope. OneTrust doing absolutely incredible right now. BeyondTrust. We've seen the issues with Okta, right. So those are two names that play in that space that obviously are probably getting some looks about what's going on right now. Wiz, we've all heard about right? So raised a ton of money. It's doing well on net sentiment, but the mindshare isn't as well as you'd want, which is why you're going to see a little bit of that red versus a name like Aqua, which is doing container and application security. And hasn't raised as much money, but is really neck and neck with a name like Wiz. So that is why on a relative basis, you'll see that more green. As we all know, information security is never going away. But as we'll get to later in the program, Dave, I'm not sure in this current market environment, if people are as willing to do POCs and switch away from their security provider, right. There's a little bit of tepidness out there, a little trepidation. So right now we're seeing overall a slight pause, a slight cooling in overall evaluations on the security side versus historical levels a year ago. >> Now let's stay on here for a second. So a couple things I want to point out. So it's interesting. Now Snyk has raised over, I think $800 million but you can see them, they're high on the vertical and the horizontal, but now compare that to Lacework. It's hard to see, but they're kind of buried in the middle there. That's the biggest dot in this whole thing. I think I'm interpreting this correctly. They've raised over a billion dollars. It's a Mike Speiser company. He was the founding investor in Snowflake. So people watch that very closely, but that's an example of where they're not punching above their weight. They recently had a layoff and they got to fine tune things, but I'm still confident they they're going to do well. 'Cause they're approaching security as a data problem, which is probably people having trouble getting their arms around that. And then again, I see Arctic Wolf. They're not red, they're not green, but they've raised fair amount of money, but it's showing up to the right and decent level there. And a couple of the other ones that you mentioned, Netskope. Yeah, they've raised a lot of money, but they're actually performing where you want. What you don't want is where Lacework is, right. They've got some work to do to really take advantage of the money that they raised last November and prior to that. >> Yeah, if you're seeing that more neutral color, like you're calling out with an Arctic Wolf, like that means relative to their peers, this is where they should be. It's when you're seeing that red on a Lacework where we all know, wow, you raised a ton of money and your mindshare isn't where it should be. Your net sentiment is not where it should be comparatively. And then you see these great standouts, like Salt Security and SecurityScorecard and Abnormal. You know they haven't raised that much money yet, but their net sentiment's higher and their mindshare's doing well. So those basically in a nutshell, if you're a PE or a VC and you see a small green circle, then you're doing well, then it means you made a good investment. >> Some of these guys, I don't know, but you see these small green circles. Those are the ones you want to start digging into and maybe help them catch a wave. Okay, let's get into the data discussion. And again, three areas, database slash data warehousing, big data analytics and ML AI. First, we're going to look at the database sector. So Alex, thank you for bringing that up. Alright, take us through this, Erik. Actually, let me just say Postgres SQL. I got to ask you about this. It shows some funding, but that actually could be a mix of EDB, the company that commercializes Postgres and Postgres the open source database, which is a transaction system and kind of an open source Oracle. You see MariaDB is a database, but open source database. But the companies they've raised over $200 million and they filed an S-4. So Erik looks like this might be a little bit of mashup of companies and open source products. Help us understand this. >> Yeah, it's tough when you start dealing with the open source side and I'll be honest with you, there is a little bit of a mashup here. There are certain names here that are a hundred percent for profit companies. And then there are others that are obviously open source based like Redis is open source, but Redis Labs is the one trying to monetize the support around it. So you're a hundred percent accurate on this slide. I think one of the things here that's important to note though, is just how important open source is to data. If you're going to be going to any of these areas, it's going to be open source based to begin with. And Neo4j is one I want to call out here. It's not one everyone's familiar with, but it's basically geographical charting database, which is a name that we're seeing on a net sentiment side actually really, really high. When you think about it's the third overall net sentiment for a niche database play. It's not as big on the mindshare 'cause it's use cases aren't as often, but third biggest play on net sentiment. I found really interesting on this slide. >> And again, so MariaDB, as I said, they filed an S-4 I think $50 million in revenue, that might even be ARR. So they're not huge, but they're getting there. And by the way, MariaDB, if you don't know, was the company that was formed the day that Oracle bought Sun in which they got MySQL and MariaDB has done a really good job of replacing a lot of MySQL instances. Oracle has responded with MySQL HeatWave, which was kind of the Oracle version of MySQL. So there's some interesting battles going on there. If you think about the LAMP stack, the M in the LAMP stack was MySQL. And so now it's all MariaDB replacing that MySQL for a large part. And then you see again, the red, you know, you got to have some concerns about there. Aerospike's been around for a long time. SingleStore changed their name a couple years ago, last year. Yellowbrick Data, Fire Bolt was kind of going after Snowflake for a while, but yeah, you want to get out of that red zone. So they got some work to do. >> And Dave, real quick for the people that aren't aware, I just want to let them know that we can cut this data with the public company data as well. So we can cross over this with that because some of these names are competing with the larger public company names as well. So we can go ahead and cross reference like a MariaDB with a Mongo, for instance, or of something of that nature. So it's not in this slide, but at another point we can certainly explain on a relative basis how these private names are doing compared to the other ones as well. >> All right, let's take a quick look at analytics. Alex, bring that up if you would. Go ahead, Erik. >> Yeah, I mean, essentially here, I can't see it on my screen, my apologies. I just kind of went to blank on that. So gimme one second to catch up. >> So I could set it up while you're doing that. You got Grafana up and to the right. I mean, this is huge right. >> Got it thank you. I lost my screen there for a second. Yep. Again, open source name Grafana, absolutely up and to the right. But as we know, Grafana Labs is actually picking up a lot of speed based on Grafana, of course. And I think we might actually hear some noise from them coming this year. The names that are actually a little bit more disappointing than I want to call out are names like ThoughtSpot. It's been around forever. Their mindshare of course is second best here but based on the amount of time they've been around and the amount of money they've raised, it's not actually outperforming the way it should be. We're seeing Moogsoft obviously make some waves. That's very high net sentiment for that company. It's, you know, what, third, fourth position overall in this entire area, Another name like Fivetran, Matillion is doing well. Fivetran, even though it's got a high net sentiment, again, it's raised so much money that we would've expected a little bit more at this point. I know you know this space extremely well, but basically what we're looking at here and to the bottom left, you're going to see some names with a lot of red, large circles that really just aren't performing that well. InfluxData, however, second highest net sentiment. And it's really pretty early on in this stage and the feedback we're getting on this name is the use cases are great, the efficacy's great. And I think it's one to watch out for. >> InfluxData, time series database. The other interesting things I just noticed here, you got Tamer on here, which is that little small green. Those are the ones we were saying before, look for those guys. They might be some of the interesting companies out there and then observe Jeremy Burton's company. They do observability on top of Snowflake, not green, but kind of in that gray. So that's kind of cool. Monte Carlo is another one, they're sort of slightly green. They are doing some really interesting things in data and data mesh. So yeah, okay. So I can spend all day on this stuff, Erik, phenomenal data. I got to get back and really dig in. Let's end with machine learning and AI. Now this chart it's similar in its dimensions, of course, except for the money raised. We're not showing that size of the bubble, but AI is so hot. We wanted to cover that here, Erik, explain this please. Why TensorFlow is highlighted and walk us through this chart. >> Yeah, it's funny yet again, right? Another open source name, TensorFlow being up there. And I just want to explain, we do break out machine learning, AI is its own sector. A lot of this of course really is intertwined with the data side, but it is on its own area. And one of the things I think that's most important here to break out is Databricks. We started to cover Databricks in machine learning, AI. That company has grown into much, much more than that. So I do want to state to you Dave, and also the audience out there that moving forward, we're going to be moving Databricks out of only the MA/AI into other sectors. So we can kind of value them against their peers a little bit better. But in this instance, you could just see how dominant they are in this area. And one thing that's not here, but I do want to point out is that we have the ability to break this down by industry vertical, organization size. And when I break this down into Fortune 500 and Fortune 1000, both Databricks and Tensorflow are even better than you see here. So it's quite interesting to see that the names that are succeeding are also succeeding with the largest organizations in the world. And as we know, large organizations means large budgets. So this is one area that I just thought was really interesting to point out that as we break it down, the data by vertical, these two names still are the outstanding players. >> I just also want to call it H2O.ai. They're getting a lot of buzz in the marketplace and I'm seeing them a lot more. Anaconda, another one. Dataiku consistently popping up. DataRobot is also interesting because all the kerfuffle that's going on there. The Cube guy, Cube alum, Chris Lynch stepped down as executive chairman. All this stuff came out about how the executives were taking money off the table and didn't allow the employees to participate in that money raising deal. So that's pissed a lot of people off. And so they're now going through some kind of uncomfortable things, which is unfortunate because DataRobot, I noticed, we haven't covered them that much in "Breaking Analysis", but I've noticed them oftentimes, Erik, in the surveys doing really well. So you would think that company has a lot of potential. But yeah, it's an important space that we're going to continue to watch. Let me ask you Erik, can you contextualize this from a time series standpoint? I mean, how is this changed over time? >> Yeah, again, not show here, but in the data. I'm sorry, go ahead. >> No, I'm sorry. What I meant, I should have interjected. In other words, you would think in a downturn that these emerging companies would be less interesting to buyers 'cause they're more risky. What have you seen? >> Yeah, and it was interesting before we went live, you and I were having this conversation about "Is the downturn stopping people from evaluating these private companies or not," right. In a larger sense, that's really what we're doing here. How are these private companies doing when it comes down to the actual practitioners? The people with the budget, the people with the decision making. And so what I did is, we have historical data as you know, I went back to the Emerging Technology Survey we did in November of 21, right at the crest right before the market started to really fall and everything kind of started to fall apart there. And what I noticed is on the security side, very much so, we're seeing less evaluations than we were in November 21. So I broke it down. On cloud security, net sentiment went from 21% to 16% from November '21. That's a pretty big drop. And again, that sentiment is our one aggregate metric for overall positivity, meaning utilization and actual evaluation of the name. Again in database, we saw it drop a little bit from 19% to 13%. However, in analytics we actually saw it stay steady. So it's pretty interesting that yes, cloud security and security in general is always going to be important. But right now we're seeing less overall net sentiment in that space. But within analytics, we're seeing steady with growing mindshare. And also to your point earlier in machine learning, AI, we're seeing steady net sentiment and mindshare has grown a whopping 25% to 30%. So despite the downturn, we're seeing more awareness of these companies in analytics and machine learning and a steady, actual utilization of them. I can't say the same in security and database. They're actually shrinking a little bit since the end of last year. >> You know it's interesting, we were on a round table, Erik does these round tables with CISOs and CIOs, and I remember one time you had asked the question, "How do you think about some of these emerging tech companies?" And one of the executives said, "I always include somebody in the bottom left of the Gartner Magic Quadrant in my RFPs. I think he said, "That's how I found," I don't know, it was Zscaler or something like that years before anybody ever knew of them "Because they're going to help me get to the next level." So it's interesting to see Erik in these sectors, how they're holding up in many cases. >> Yeah. It's a very important part for the actual IT practitioners themselves. There's always contracts coming up and you always have to worry about your next round of negotiations. And that's one of the roles these guys play. You have to do a POC when contracts come up, but it's also their job to stay on top of the new technology. You can't fall behind. Like everyone's a software company. Now everyone's a tech company, no matter what you're doing. So these guys have to stay in on top of it. And that's what this ETS can do. You can go in here and look and say, "All right, I'm going to evaluate their technology," and it could be twofold. It might be that you're ready to upgrade your technology and they're actually pushing the envelope or it simply might be I'm using them as a negotiation ploy. So when I go back to the big guy who I have full intentions of writing that contract to, at least I have some negotiation leverage. >> Erik, we got to leave it there. I could spend all day. I'm going to definitely dig into this on my own time. Thank you for introducing this, really appreciate your time today. >> I always enjoy it, Dave and I hope everyone out there has a great holiday weekend. Enjoy the rest of the summer. And, you know, I love to talk data. So anytime you want, just point the camera on me and I'll start talking data. >> You got it. I also want to thank the team at ETR, not only Erik, but Darren Bramen who's a data scientist, really helped prepare this data, the entire team over at ETR. I cannot tell you how much additional data there is. We are just scratching the surface in this "Breaking Analysis". So great job guys. I want to thank Alex Myerson. Who's on production and he manages the podcast. Ken Shifman as well, who's just coming back from VMware Explore. Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on social media and in our newsletters. And Rob Hof is our editor in chief over at SiliconANGLE. Does some great editing for us. Thank you. All of you guys. Remember these episodes, they're all available as podcast, wherever you listen. All you got to do is just search "Breaking Analysis" podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. Or you can email me to get in touch david.vellante@siliconangle.com. You can DM me at dvellante or comment on my LinkedIn posts and please do check out etr.ai for the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for Erik Bradley and The Cube Insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching. Be well. And we'll see you next time on "Breaking Analysis". (upbeat music)

>>We're seeing green here at Vemo in 2022, you're watching the cube, Dave ante and David Nicholson wrapping up our second day of coverage. Dave, good show. Good to be, you know, again, good to be back. This is our third show in a row. We're a Cuban as well. So the cube is, is out there, but same every, every show we go to so far has been most of the people here haven't been out in two plus years. Yeah. Right. And, and, and they're like, Hey, let's go. Let's hug. Let's shake. I got my red band on cuz we've been on a lot of shows or just being careful <laugh> um, you know, Hey, but it's great to see people back, uh, >>Absolutely >>Such a different vibe than virtual virtual sucks. Everybody hates it now, but now it's going hybrid. People are trying to figure that out. Yeah. Uh, but it's, it's in your view, what's different. What's the same >>In terms of, uh, in person versus hybrid kind of what's happened since what's >>Different being here now versus say 2019, not that you were here in 2019, but a show in 2019. >>I, I think there's right now, there's a certain sense of, uh, of appreciation for the ability to come and do this. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, >>As opposed to on we or oh, another show, right? >>Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And, and, uh, a personal opinion is that, um, I think that the hybrid model moving forward is going to end up being additive. I don't know that I don't, you know, people say we'll never go back to having in person the way we did before. Um, I'm holding out hope that that's not the case because I, I think so there's so much value to the kinds of conversations that we have, not only here on the set with folks in person, but just the hallway conversations, uh, the dinner conversations, um, those are so critical, uh, not only with between vendors and customers, but between different business units. Um, you know, I, I, I came into this thinking, you know, I know Veeam very well. I've known them since the beginning. Um, but you think I'm going to a conference to talk about backup software and it wasn't like that at all. I mean, this is, this is an overarching, very, very interesting subject to cover. So how is it different? I think people are appreciative. I wouldn't say we're backed full throttle a hundred percent, um, uh, back in the game yet. But, uh, but we we're getting there. Some >>Of the highlights Veeam now, number one, statistical tie for first place in revenue. There aren't a lot of segments, especially in storage where Dell is not number one, I guess technically Dell is like, I don't know, half a percentage point ahead, but Veeam's gonna blow by that. Unless Dell gets its data, >>Protect me as the luxury of focus, they can focus >>Like a laser on it focus. Right? That, that we, we saw this in the P PC where focused, we saw Dell's ascendancy cuz they were focused on PCs, right? Yeah. We saw Seagate on dis drives Intel and microprocesors Oracle on databases and, and, and Veeam applied that model to what they call modern data protection. Um, and, and the, so the reason why we think they're gonna go past is they growing at 20 plus percent each year. And, and I can almost guarantee Dell's data protection business isn't although it's been in a, I, I sense a downward slope lately, they don't divulge that data. Um, but if they were growing nicely, they would be talking about it. So I think they've been kind of hiding that ball, but Dell, you know, you can't count those guys out they're baby. >>No, you can't. And there's always >>A, they don't like to lose. They get that EMC DNA still in >>There. Yeah. You take, you can, you might take your eye off the ball for a little while to focus on other things. But uh, I think it'll be healthy for the industry at large, as Veeam continues to take market share. There's definitely gonna be pushback from, from others in the field, but >>The pure software play. Um, and you know that no hardware agenda thing and all that I think is, is clearly in Veeam's favor. Uh, but we'll see. I mean, Dell's got other, other strengths as do others. I mean, this is, this is, let's not forget this, this, this market is crowded and getting kind. I mean, you got, you got other players, new, new entrants, like cohesive in Rubrik Rubic, by the way is the one I was kind of referring to. That seems to be, you go to their LinkedIn, they seem to be pivoting to security. I was shocked when I saw that. I'm like, wow, is that just like a desperation move? Is that a way to get your valuation up? Is that, is there something I'm missing? I, I don't know. I haven't talked to those guys in a little bit, need to get, get there, but cause he and Rubrik couldn't get to IPO prior to, uh, you know, the, the, the, the, the tech sell off the tech lash. >>If you will Veeam, didn't need toves. We have 30% EBITDA and, and has had it for a while. So they've been, they caught lightning in a bottle years ago, and then now they got the inside capital behind them. Um, you got new entrance, like, like Kuo, you got com. Vault is out there. You still got, you know, Veritas is still out there competing and you know, a number of other, you get you got is wherever HP software landed in, in the MicroStrategy, uh, micro strategy. <laugh> um, no not micro strategy anyway, in that portfolio of companies that HP sold its software business to, you know, they're still out there. So, you know, a lot of ways to, to buy backup and recovery software, but these guys being the leader is no surprise. >>Yeah. You know, it's, I, I, I have to say it to me. It's a classic story of discipline >>Microfocus, sorry, >>Microfocus. Yeah, that's right. That's right. You know, it's funny. I, I, I could see that logo on a, I know I've got a notebook at home. Um, but, but theme is a classic example of well disciplined growth where you're not playing the latest buzzword game and trying to create adjacent businesses that are really, that might sound sexy, but have nothing to do with your core. They've been very, very disciplined about their approach, starting with, you know, looking at VMFS and saying, this is what we're gonna do, and then branching out from there in a logical way. So, so they're not out ahead of the tips of their skis in a way that some others have have gotten. And those, you know, sometimes swinging for the fence is great, but you can strike out that way also. And they've been hitting, you know, you could say they've been hitting singles and doubles just over and over and over again for years now. Well, that's been a great strategy. >>You've seen this a lot. I mean, I, I think you watched this at EMC when you were there as you, it was acquisitions to try to keep the growth up. It was, it was great marketing. I mean, unbelievable marketing cloud meets big data. Oh yeah. And you'd hear on CNBC. AMC is the cloud company. You're like, eh, fucking have a cloud. So, so you, you you've seen companies do that to your point about getting ahead of your skis. VMs never done that EMS like, eh, this is the product that works great. Yeah. Customers love it. They buy it, you know, we got the distribution channel set up and so that's always been, been, been part of their DNA. Um, and I think the other piece is putting meat on the bone of the tagline of modern data protection. When I first heard that I'm like, mm, okay. >>But then when you peel the onion on that, the core is back up in recovery, a lot of focus on recovery. And then the way they, I remember it was there in the audience when they announced, you know, support for bare metal, people went crazy. I'm like, wow, okay. They cuz they used to say, oh, never virtualization forever. Okay. So they beat that drum and you never say never in this business, do you, and then moving on to cloud and hybrid and containers and we're hearing about super cloud now, and maybe there'll be an edge use case there it's still unclear what that pattern is. You've talked about that with Zs, but it's not clear to me where you put your muscle yet in, um, in edge, but really being able to manage all that data that is people talk about data management that starts to be data management. And they've got a footprint that enables 'em to do that. >>Yeah. And, and I'd like to see that same discipline approach. That's gotten them here to continue no need to get on board a hype cycle. Um, what I really love from a business execution perspective from Veeam is the fact that they know their place in terms of the, their strategic advisory role for end user customers and their places largely in partnership with folks in the channel partners, large and small, um, in a couple of the conversations we had over the last few days, we talked about this idea that there are fewer and fewer seats at the table. Uh, working with customers, customers can't have 25 strategic vendor partners and a lot of smaller niche players that focus on something even as important as backup will pretend that they are, that they hold the same sort of strategic weight as a hyperscale cloud provider. Does they pretend that they're gonna be there in the CX O meetings? Um, when they're not Veeam knows exactly how to best leverage what they do with customers and that's through partners in the channel. >>The other thing is, um, new CEO, a non Eron, uh, the fifth CEO, I think I'm correct. Is that right at, at VE yes. Um, so two founders, uh, and then when Peter McKay came on, he was co CEO. Um, and then, um, yep. And let's see, I think yep. You the fifth. Okay. So each of the CEOs kind of had their own mark. Right. Um, and we asked an on in the analyst thing, what do you want your legacy to be? And I, I loved his answer. He's like, this is a fragmented business with a lot of adjacencies and we are the leader in revenue, but we only have 12% revenue share. I want to take that to 25%, 40%. That's like EMC at 30 plus percent of the storage market, Cisco of 60% of the networking market. Wow. If anybody could ever get there, but so 25 to 30% of a market that's that's big. Yeah. I liked his demeanor thought he had a really good style philosophy. Well-spoken well spoken. So new leadership, obviously insight brought him in to take them to the next level. Um, and, and really drive. I gotta believe get ready for IPO. We kind of admitted that. >>Yeah. And I, and IPO for them, one thing he mentioned is that, um, in this case, this is not an IPO let's high five and go to Vegas and get table service because now we finally have money. Uh, they're not doing, you know, obviously an injection in capital from an IPO is always a good thing or should be a good thing if handled properly, but that's not their primary driver. So it'll be very interesting to see if they can hit the timing. Right. Um, how that, how that works out >>Well and, and bill large is his was predecessor. Uh, he, he, he took over, uh, once the company, excuse me, went private. Um, >>Yeah, that phone backed up. >>I still good in the mic once the company went private, uh, well, no, they were always private. Once they got acquired for five plus billion dollars from inside capital, um, they, they put bill in charge, perfect choice for the transition. And it was like, okay, bill. It's like, when you, my brother's a sailor. He says, Hey, take, take the wheel, see that lighthouse or see that tree go for it, keep it on track. And that's what bill did. Perfect. And he knew the company knew where all the skeletons were buried and, and was perfect. Perfect transition for that. Now they're bringing in somebody who they feel can take it to the next level. They're at a billion. He said he could see 5 billion and, and beyond. So that's kind of cool. Um, the other thing was ecosystem as companies got a really robust ecosystem, all the storage array vendors came on. >>The, the, the backup appliance companies, you know, came on to the cube and had a presence here. Why? Because this is where all the customers are. This is the leader in backup in recovery. Yeah. They all want to partner with that leader. Now they're at out the other shows as well, uh, for the Veeam competitors, but frankly, Veeam, Veeam competitors. They don't have, like you said, they're pure play. Many of them don't have a show like this, or it's a smaller event. Um, and so they gotta be here. Uh, and I think the, the, the other thing was the ransomware study. What I really liked about Veeam is they not only just talked about it, they not only talked about their solution. They sh they did deep dive surveys and shared a ton of data with guys that knew data. Um, Dave Russell and Jason Buffington, both former analysts, Russell was a Gartner very well respected top Gartner analyst for years. Jason buff, Buffington at ESG who those guys did always did some really good, still do deep research. So you had them representing that data, but sharing it with the community, of course, it's, it's gonna be somewhat self-serving, but it wasn't as blatant. It that wasn't nearly as blatant as I often see with these surveys, gender surveys, I'll look at 'em. I can tell within like, seconds, whether it's just a bunch of marketing, you know, what, or there's real substance. Yeah. And this one had real substance to >>It. Yeah. And it's okay. When substance supports your business model. >>Yeah. Cool. >>It's great. Good >>Marketing. But yeah, as an best marketing, I'm not gonna use it. The whole industry can use this and build on it. Yeah. I think there were a lot of unanswered questions. I, what I love about Vema is they're going back and they, they did it in February. They, they updated it just recently. Now they're going back and doing more cuz they want to get it by country. So they're making investments. And then they're sharing that with the industry. I love that. >>It'll be interesting to see if they continue it over time, how things change if things change. Um, one of the things that we really didn't talk a lot about is, uh, and you know, it's, I know it's talked about behind closed doors, um, this idea of, uh, stockpiling day zero exploits, and the fact that a lot of these, these >>Things, >>A lot of these problems arguably could have been headed off, had our taxpayer funded organizations, shared information with private industry in a more timely fashion. Um, um, we had, um, uh, uh, was it, uh, Gina from AWS who gave the example of, uh, the not Petia, uh, experience in the hospital environment. And that came directly out of frankly a day zero exploit that the NSA had identified years earlier within Microsoft's operating system. And, uh, somehow others got ahold of that and used it for nefarious means. So the intent to stockpile and hang onto these things is always, um, noble, but sometimes the result is, uh, less than desirable. So that's, it'll be an interesting conversation. >>We'd be remiss if we didn't mention the, the casting acquisition, the, the, the container data protection, small piece of the business today. Uh, but strategic in the sense that, yeah, absolutely. If you want to appeal to developers, if, if, if, if, if you want to be in the cloud, you know, you better be able to talk containers generally in Kubernetes specifically. So they gotta play there as well. >>Well, they, they, they hit virtualization cloud containers. Maybe I'm missing something in between, but they seem to be >>Ransomware >>Catching waves effectively. Yeah. Ransomware, uh, catching waves effectively, uh, again, not in an artificial buzzword driven way, but in a legitimate disciplined business growth approach that, uh, that's impressive. >>And I, and I think Danny mentioned this, we, he said we've been a PLG product led growth company. Um, and I think they're evolving now. We talked about platforms versus product. We still got still a product company. Uh, but they're bill wants to build out a Supercloud. So we're watching that very closely. I, I think it is a thing. You got a lot of grief for the term, super cloud. Some people wince at it, but it's, there's something brewing. There's something different. That's not just cloud public cloud, not hybrid cloud, not private cloud it's across cloud it's super cloud. All right, Dave, Hey, it was a pleasure working with you this week. Always kind of funny. I mean, we're, the crew was out in, uh, in Valencia, Spain. Yeah. Uh, they'll in fact, they'll be broadcasting, I believe all the way through Friday. Uh, that's an early morning thing for the, uh, for the west coast and, but east coast should be able to catch that easily. >>Of course you can all check out all the replays on the cube.net, also YouTube, youtube.com/silicon angle go to wikibon.com. There's some, you know, research there I publish every week and, and others do, uh, as well, maybe not as frequently, but, uh, we have a great relationship with ETR. I'm gonna poke into some data protection stuff in their survey. See if I can find some interesting, uh, data there. And don't forget to go to Silicon an angle.com, which is all the news. This is the cube, our flagship production we're out at VEON 2022. Thanks for watching.

>>Hello, everybody. Welcome to Von 2022, the live version. Yes, we're finally back live. Last time we did Von was 2019 live. Of course we did two subsequent years, uh, virtual. My name is Dave Valante and we've got two days of wall to wall coverage of VEON. As usual Veeam has brought together a number of customers, but it's really doing something different this year. Like many, uh, companies that you see, they have a big hybrid event. It's close to 40,000 people online and that's sort of driving the actual program where the content is actually different for the, the, the virtual viewers versus the onsite onsite. There's the, the V I P event going on, they got the keynotes. VM is a company who's a ancy occurred during the, the VMware rise. They brought in a new way of doing data protection. They didn't use agents. They, they protected at the hypervisor level. >>That changed the way that people did things. They're now doing it again in cloud, in SAS, in containers and ransomware. And so we're gonna dig into that. My cohost is Dave Nicholson this week, and we've got a special guest Zs Carava who is the principal at ZK research. He's an extraordinary analyst Zs. Great to see you, David. Thanks for coming out. Absolutely good to see you Beon. Great to be here. Yeah, we've done. Von act, live things have changed so dramatically. Uh, I mean the focus ransomware, it's now a whole new Tam, uh, the adjacency to security data protection. It's just a Zs. It's a whole new ballgame, isn't it? >>Well, it is. And, and in fact, um, during the keynote, they, they mentioned that they've, they're now tied at number one in, for, you know, back of a recovery, which is, I think it's safe to say Veeam. Does that really well? >>I think from a that's tied with Dell. Yes. Right. They didn't, I don't think they met Dell as >>Keto. And, uh, but I, you know, they've been rising Dell, EMC's been falling. And so I think >>It's somebody said 10 points that Dell lost and sharing the I data. >>It's not a big surprise. I mean, they haven't really invested a whole lot, >>I think anyway, >>Anyways, but I think from a Veeam perspective, the question is now that they've kind of hit that number one spot or close to it, what do they do next? This company, they mentioned, I was talking the CTO yesterday. You mentioned they're holding X bite of customer data. That is a lot of data. Right. And so they, they do back recovery really well. They do it arguably better than anybody. And so how do they take that data and then move into other adjacent markets to go create, not just a back recovery company, but a true data management platform company that has relevancy in cyber and analytics and artificial intelligence and data warehousing. Right? All those other areas I think are, are really open territory for this company right now. >>You know, Dave, you were a CTO at, at EMC when you, when you saw a lot of the acquisitions that the company made, uh, you, you know, they really never had a singular focus on data protection. They had a big data protection business, but that's the differentiator with Veeam. That's all it does. And you see that shine through from a, from a CTO's perspective. How do you see this market changing, evolving? And what's your sense as to how Vema is doing here? >>I think a lot of it's being driven by kind of, uh, unfortunately evil genius, uh, out in the market space. Yeah. I know we're gonna be hearing a lot about ransomware, uh, a lot about some concepts that we didn't really talk about outside of maybe the defense industry, air gaping, logical air gaping, um, Zs, you mentioned, you know, this, this, this question of what do you do when you have so many petabytes of data under management exabytes now exabytes, I'm sorry. Yeah, I see there I'm I'm already falling behind. One thing you could do is you could encrypt it all and then ask for Bitcoin in exchange for access to that data. >>Yes. That is what happens a >>Lot of them. So we're, we're getting, we're getting so much of the evil genius stuff headed our way. You start, you start thinking in those ways, but yet to, to your point, uh, dedicated backup products, don't address the scale and scope and variety of threats, not just from operational, uh, uh, you know, mishaps, uh, but now from so many bad actors coming in from the outside, it it's a whole new world. >>See us as analysts. We get inundated with ransomware solutions. Everybody's talking about it across the spectrum. The thing that interested me about what's happening here at VEON is they're, they're sort of trotting out this study that they do Veeam does some serious research, you know, thousands of customers that got hit by ransomware that they dug into. And then a, a larger study of all companies, many of whom didn't realize or said they hadn't been hit by ransomware, but they're really trying to inject thought leadership into the equation. You saw some of that in the analyst session this morning, it's now public. Uh, so we could talk about it. What were your thoughts on that data? >>Yeah, that was, uh, really fascinating data cuz it shows the ransomware industry, the response to it is largely reactive, right? We wait to get breach. We wait to, to uh, to get held at ransom I suppose. And then we, a lot of companies paid out. In fact, I thought there's one hospital in Florida, they're buying lots and lots of Bitcoin simply to pay out ransomware attacks. They didn't even really argue with them. They just pay it out. And I think Veeam's trying to change that mentality a little bit. You know, if you have the right strategy in place to be more preventative, you can do that. You can protect your data and then restore it right when you want to. So you don't have to be in that big bucket of companies that frankly pay and actually don't get their data back. Right. >>And like a third, I think roughly >>It's shocking amount of companies that get hit by that. And for a lot of companies, that's the end of their business. >>You know, a lot of the recovery process is manual is again a technologist. You understand that that's not the ideal way to go. In fact, it's probably a, a way to fail. >>Well, recovery's always the problem when I was in corporate, it used to joke that we were the best at backup, terrible at recovery. Well, you know, that's not atypical. >>My Fred Fred Moore, who was the vice president of strategy at a company called storage tech storage technology, corpor of storage tech. He had a great, uh, saying, he said, backup is one thing. Recovery is everything. And he started, he said that 30 years ago, but, but orchestration and automating that orchestration is, is really vital. We saw in the study, a lot of organizations are using scripts and scripts are fragile here they break. Right? >>Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, unfortunately the idea of the red run book on the shelf is still with us. Uh, uh, you know, scripting does not equal automation necessarily in every case, there's still gonna be a lot of manual steps in the process. Um, but you know, what I hope we get to talk about during the next couple of days is, you know, some of the factors that go into this, we've got day zero exploits that have already been uncovered that are stockpiled, uh, and tucked away. And it's inevitable that they're gonna hit. Yeah. So whether it's a manual recovery process or some level of automation, um, if you don't have something that is air gapped and cut off from the rest of the world in a physical or logical way, you can't guarantee >>That the, the problem with manual processes and scripting is even if you can set it up today, the environment changes so fast, right? With shadow it and business units buying their own services and users storing things and you know, wherever, um, you, you can't keep up with scripts in manual. Automation must be the way and I've been, and I don't care what part of it. You work in, whether it's this area in networking, communications, whatever automation must be the way I think prior to the pandemic, I saw a lot of resistance from it pros in the area of mission. Since the pandemic, I've seen a lot of warming up to it because I think it pros, I just realized they can't do their job without it. So, so you >>Don't, you don't think that edge devices, uh, lend themselves to manual >>Recovery, no process. In fact, I think that's one of the things they didn't talk about. What's that is, is edge. Edge is gonna be huge. More, every retailer, I talk to oil and gas, company's been using it for a long time. I've, you know, manufacturing organizations are looking at edge as a way to put more data in more places to improve experiences. Cuz you're moving the data closer, but we're creating a world where the fragmentation of data, you think it's bad now just wait a couple of years until the edge is a little more, you know, uh, to life here. And I think you ain't see nothing yet. This is this world of data. Everywhere is truly becoming that. And the thing with edge is there's no one definition, edge, you got IOT edge cellular edge, campus edge, right? Um, you know, you look at hotels, they have their own edge. I talked to major league baseball, right? They have every, stadium's got its own edge server in it. So we're moving into a world. We're putting more data in more places it's more fragmented than ever. And we need better ways of managing Of securing that data. But then also being able to recover for when >>Things happen. I was having that Danny Allen, he used the term that we coined called super cloud. He used that in the analyst meeting today. And, and that's a metaphor for this new layer of cloud. That's developing to your point, whether it's on-prem in a hybrid across clouds, not just running on the cloud, but actually abstracting away the complexity of the underlying primitives and APIs. And then eventually to your point, going out to the edge, I don't know if anyone who has an aggressive edge strategy Veeam to its credit, you know, has gone well beyond just virtualization and gone to bare metal into cloud. They were the containers. There was first at SAS. They acquired Caston who was a partner of theirs and they tried to acquire them earlier, but there was some government things and you know, that whole thing that got cleaned up and now they've, they own Caston. And I think the edge is next. I mean, it's gotta be, there's gonna be so much data at the edge. I guess the question is where is it today? How much of that is actually persisted? How much goes back to the cloud? I don't think people really have a good answer for that yet. >>No. In fact, a lot of edge services will be very ephemeral in nature. So it's not like with cloud where we'll take data and we'll store it there forever with the edge, we're gonna take data, we'll store it there for the time, point in time we need it. But I think one of the interesting things about Veeam is because they're decoupled from the airline hardware, they can run virtual machines and containers, porting Veeam to whatever platform you have next actually isn't all that difficult. Right? And so then if you need to be able to go back to a certain point in time, they can do that instantly. It's, it's a fascinating way to do backup. Are >>You you' point about it? I mean, you remember the signs up and down, you know, near the EMC facility, right outside of Southborough no hardware agenda that that was Jeremy Burton when he was running Verto of course they've got a little hardware agenda. So, but Veeam doesn't Veeam is, you know, they they're friendly with all the hardware players of pure play software, couple other stats on them. So they're a billion dollar company. They've now started to talk about their ARR growth. They grew, uh, 27% last year in, in, in annual recurring revenue, uh, 25%, uh, in the most recent quarter. And so they're in, in the vast majority of their business is subscription. I think they said, uh, 73% is now subscription based. So they really trans transitioned that business. The other thing about vem is they they've come up with a licensing model that's very friendly. >>Um, and they sort of removed that friction early on in the process. I remember talking to TIR about this. He said, we are gonna incent our partners and make it transparent to them, whether it's, you know, that when we shift from, you know, the, the, the, the crack of, of perpetual license to a subscription model, we're gonna make that transparent to partners. We'll take care of that. Essentially. They funded that transition. So that's worked very well. So they do stand out, I think from some of the larger companies at these big portfolios, although the big portfolio companies, you know, they get board level contacts and they can elbow their ways in your thoughts on that sort of selling dynamic. >>So navigating that transition to a subscription model is always fraught with danger. Everybody wants you to be there, but they want you to be there now. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, they don't like the transition that happens over 1824 months to get there. Um, >>As a private company, they're somewhat shielded from what they would've been if they were appli. Sure, >>Exactly. But, but that, but that bodes well from a, from a, a Veeam perspective. Um, the other interesting thing is that they sit where customers sit today in the real world, a hybrid world, not everything is in the cloud or a single cloud, uh, still a lot of on-prem things to take care of. And, >>And there will be for >>A long time exactly. Back to this idea. Yeah. There's a very long tail on that. So it's, it's, it's well enough to have a niche product that addresses a certain segment of the market, but to be able to go in and say all data everywhere, it doesn't matter where it lives. We have you covered. Um, that's a powerful message. And we were talking earlier. I think they, they stand a really good shot at taking market share, you know, on an ongoing basis. >>Yeah. The interesting thing about this market, Dave is they're, you know, although, you know, they're tied to number one with Dell now, they're, it's 12%, right? This reminds me of the security industry five, six years ago, where it's so fragmented. There's so many vendors, no one really stood out right. Then what happened in security? It's a little company called Palo Alto networks came around, they created a platform story. They moved into adjacent markets like SDWAN, they did a lot of smart acquisitions and they took off. I think vem is at that similar point where they've now, you know, that 12% number they've got some capital. Now they could go do some acquisitions that they want do. There's lots of adjacent markets as they talk about this company could be the Palo Alto of the data management market, if you know, and based on good execution. But there's certainly the opportunities there with all the data that they're holding. >>That's a really interesting point. I wanna stay that in a second. So there's obviously, there's, there's backup, there's recovery, there's data protection, there's ransomware protection, there's SAS data protection. And now all of a sudden you're seeing even a company like Rubrik is kind of repositioning as a security play. Yeah. Which I'm not sure that's the right move for a company that's really been focused on, on backup to really dive into that fragmented market. But it's clearly an adjacency and we heard Anan the new CEO today in the analyst segment, you know, we asked him, what's your kinda legacy gonna look like? And he said, I want to, I want to, defragment this market he's looking at. Yeah. He wants 25 to 45% of the market, which I think is really ambitious. I love that goal now to your point, agree, he, he sure. But that doubles yeah. >>From today or more, and he gets there to your point, possibly through acquisitions, they've made some really interesting tuck-ins with Castin. They certainly bought an AWS, uh, cloud play years ago. But my, my so, uh, Veeam was purchased by, uh, private equity inside capital inside capital in January of 2020, just before COVID for 5 billion. And at the time, then COVID hit right after you were like uhoh. And then of course the market took off so great acquisition by insight. But I think an IPO is in their future and that's, uh, Zs when they can start picking up some of these adjacent markets through every day. >>And I think one of the challenges for them is now that the Holden XAB bited data, they need to be able to tell customers things they, the customer doesn't know. Right. And that's where a lot of the work they're doing in artificial intelligence machine learning comes into play. Right. And, and nobody does that better than AWS, right? AWS is always looking at your data and telling you things you don't know, which makes you buy more. And so I think from a Veeam perspective, they need to now take all this, this huge asset they have and, and find a way to monetize it. And that's by revealing these key insights to customers that the customers don't even know they have. And >>They've got that monitor monitoring layer. Um, it's if you called it, Danny, didn't like to use the term, but he called it an AI. It's really machine learning that monitors. And then I think makes recommendations. I want to dig into that a little bit with it. >>Well, you can see the platform story starting to build here. Right. And >>Here's a really good point. Yeah. Because they really have been historically a point product company. This notion of super cloud is really a platform play. >>Right. And if you look in the software industry, look across any, any segment of the software industry, those companies that were niche that became big became platforms, Salesforce, SAP, Oracle. Right. And, and they find a way to allow others to build on their platform. You know, companies, they think like a Citrix, they never did that. Yeah. And they kind of taped, you know, petered out at a certain level of growth and had to, you know, change. They're still changing their business model, in fact. But I think that's Veeam's at that inflection point, right. They either build a platform story, enable others to do more on their platform or they stagnate >>HP software is another good example. They never were able to get that platform. And we're not able bunch of spoke with it, a non used to work there. Why is it so important Dave, to have a platform over a product? >>Well, cynical, Dave says, uh, you have a platform because it attracts investment and it makes you look cooler than maybe you really are. Um, but, uh, but really for longevity, you have, you, you, you have to be a platform. So what's >>The difference. How do you know when you have platform versus it? APIs? Is it, yeah. Brett, is it ecosystem? >>Some of it is. Some of it is semantics. Look at when, when I'm worried about my critical assets, my data, um, I think of a platform, a portfolio of point solutions for backing up edge data stuff. That's in the cloud stuff that exists in SAS. I see that holistically. And I think guys, you're doing enough. This is good. Don't, don't dilute your efforts. Just keep focusing on making sure that you can back up my data wherever it lives and we'll both win together. So whenever I hear a platform, I get a little bit, a little bit sketchy, >>Well platform, beats products, doesn't >>It? Yeah. To me, it's a last word. You said ecosystem. Yes. When you think of the big platform players, everybody B in the customer, uh, experience space builds to build for Salesforce. First, if you're a small security vendor, you build for Palo Alto first, right? Right. If you're in the database, you build for Oracle first and when you're that de facto platform, you create an ecosystem around you that you no longer have to fund and build yourself. It just becomes self-fulfilling. And that drives a level of stickiness that can't be replicated through product. >>Well, look at the ecosystem that, that these guys are forming. I mean, it's clear. Yeah. So are they becoming in your view >>Of platform? I think they are becoming a platform and I think that's one of the reasons they brought on and in, I think he's got some good experience doing that. You could argue that ring kind of became that. Right. The, when, you know, when he was ring central. >>Yeah. >>Yeah. And, uh, so I think some, some of his experiences and then moving into adjacencies, I think is really the reason they brought him in to lead this company to the next level. >>Excellent guys, thanks so much for setting up VEON 20, 22, 2 days of coverage on the cube. We're here at the area. It's a, it's a great venue. I >>Love the area. >>Yeah. It's nice. It's a nice intimate spot. A lot of customers here. Of course, there's gonna be a big Veeam party. They're famous for their parties, but, uh, we'll, we'll be here to cover it and, uh, keep it right there. We'll be back with the next segment. You're watching the cube VEON 20, 22 from Las Vegas.

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR, this is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> The pandemic has changed the way we think about and predict the future. As we enter the third year of a global pandemic, we see the significant impact that it's had on technology strategy, spending patterns, and company fortunes Much has changed. And while many of these changes were forced reactions to a new abnormal, the trends that we've seen over the past 24 months have become more entrenched, and point to the way that's coming ahead in the technology business. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights powered by ETR. In this Breaking Analysis, we welcome our partner and colleague and business friend, Erik Porter Bradley, as we deliver what's becoming an annual tradition for Erik and me, our predictions for Enterprise Technology in 2022 and beyond Erik, welcome. Thanks for taking some time out. >> Thank you, Dave. Luckily we did pretty well last year, so we were able to do this again. So hopefully we can keep that momentum going. >> Yeah, you know, I want to mention that, you know, we get a lot of inbound predictions from companies and PR firms that help shape our thinking. But one of the main objectives that we have is we try to make predictions that can be measured. That's why we use a lot of data. Now not all will necessarily fit that parameter, but if you've seen the grading of our 2021 predictions that Erik and I did, you'll see we do a pretty good job of trying to put forth prognostications that can be declared correct or not, you know, as black and white as possible. Now let's get right into it. Our first prediction, we're going to go run into spending, something that ETR surveys for quarterly. And we've reported extensively on this. We're calling for tech spending to increase somewhere around 8% in 2022, we can see there on the slide, Erik, we predicted spending last year would increase by 4% IDC. Last check was came in at five and a half percent. Gardner was somewhat higher, but in general, you know, not too bad, but looking ahead, we're seeing an acceleration from the ETR September surveys, as you can see in the yellow versus the blue bar in this chart, many of the SMBs that were hard hit by the pandemic are picking up spending again. And the ETR data is showing acceleration above the mean for industries like energy, utilities, retail, and services, and also, notably, in the Forbes largest 225 private companies. These are companies like Mars or Koch industries. They're predicting well above average spending for 2022. So Erik, please weigh in here. >> Yeah, a lot to bring up on this one, I'm going to be quick. So 1200 respondents on this, over a third of which were at the C-suite level. So really good data that we brought in, the usual bucket of, you know, fortune 500, global 2000 make up the meat of that median, but it's 8.3% and rising with momentum as we see. What's really interesting right now is that energy and utilities. This is usually like, you know, an orphan stock dividend type of play. You don't see them at the highest point of tech spending. And the reason why right now is really because this state of tech infrastructure in our energy infrastructure needs help. And it's obvious, remember the Florida municipality break reach last year? When they took over the water systems or they had the ability to? And this is a real issue, you know, there's bad nation state actors out there, and I'm no alarmist, but the energy and utility has to spend this money to keep up. It's really important. And then you also hit on the retail consumer. Obviously what's happened, the work from home shift created a shop from home shift, and the trends that are happening right now in retail. If you don't spend and keep up, you're not going to be around much longer. So I think the really two interesting things here to call out are energy utilities, usually a laggard in IT spend and it's leading, and also retail consumer, a lot of changes happening. >> Yeah. Great stuff. I mean, I recall when we entered the pandemic, really ETR was the first to emphasize the impact that work from home was going to have, so I really put a lot of weight on this data. Okay. Our next prediction is we're going to get into security, it's one of our favorite topics. And that is that the number one priority that needs to be addressed by organizations in 2022 is security and you can see, in this slide, the degree to which security is top of mind, relative to some other pretty important areas like cloud, productivity, data, and automation, and some others. Now people may say, "Oh, this is obvious." But I'm going to add some context here, Erik, and then bring you in. First, organizations, they don't have unlimited budgets. And there are a lot of competing priorities for dollars, especially with the digital transformation mandate. And depending on the size of the company, this data will vary. For example, while security is still number one at the largest public companies, and those are of course of the biggest spenders, it's not nearly as pronounced as it is on average, or in, for example, mid-sized companies and government agencies. And this is because midsized companies or smaller companies, they don't have the resources that larger companies do. Larger companies have done a better job of securing their infrastructure. So these mid-size firms are playing catch up and the data suggests cyber is even a bigger priority there, gaps that they have to fill, you know, going forward. And that's why we think there's going to be more demand for MSSPs, managed security service providers. And we may even see some IPO action there. And then of course, Erik, you and I have talked about events like the SolarWinds Hack, there's more ransomware attacks, other vulnerabilities. Just recently, like Log4j in December. All of this has heightened concerns. Now I want to talk a little bit more about how we measure this, you know, relatively, okay, it's an obvious prediction, but let's stick our necks out a little bit. And so in addition to the rise of managed security services, we're calling for M&A and/or IPOs, we've specified some names here on this chart, and we're also pointing to the digital supply chain as an area of emphasis. Again, Log4j really shone that under a light. And this is going to help the likes of Auth0, which is now Okta, SailPoint, which is called out on this chart, and some others. We're calling some winners in end point security. Erik, you're going to talk about sort of that lifecycle, that transformation that we're seeing, that migration to new endpoint technologies that are going to benefit from this reset refresh cycle. So Erik, weigh in here, let's talk about some of the elements of this prediction and some of the names on that chart. >> Yeah, certainly. I'm going to start right with Log4j top of mind. And the reason why is because we're seeing a real paradigm shift here where things are no longer being attacked at the network layer, they're being attacked at the application layer, and in the application stack itself. And that is a huge shift left. And that's taking in DevSecOps now as a real priority in 2022. That's a real paradigm shift over the last 20 years. That's not where attacks used to come from. And this is going to have a lot of changes. You called out a bunch of names in there that are, they're either going to work. I would add to that list Wiz. I would add Orca Security. Two names in our emerging technology study, in addition to the ones you added that are involved in cloud security and container security. These names are either going to get gobbled up. So the traditional legacy names are going to have to start writing checks and, you know, legacy is not fair, but they're in the data center, right? They're, on-prem, they're not cloud native. So these are the names that money is going to be flowing to. So they're either going to get gobbled up, or we're going to see some IPO's. And on the other thing I want to talk about too, is what you mentioned. We have CrowdStrike on that list, We have SentinalOne on the list. Everyone knows them. Our data was so strong on Tanium that we actually went positive for the first time just today, just this morning, where that was released. The trifecta of these are so important because of what you mentioned, under resourcing. We can't have security just tell us when something happens, it has to automate, and it has to respond. So in this next generation of EDR and XDR, an automated response has to happen because people are under-resourced, salaries are really high, there's a skill shortage out there. Security has to become responsive. It can't just monitor anymore. >> Yeah. Great. And we should call out too. So we named some names, Snyk, Aqua, Arctic Wolf, Lacework, Netskope, Illumio. These are all sort of IPO, or possibly even M&A candidates. All right. Our next prediction goes right to the way we work. Again, something that ETR has been on for awhile. We're calling for a major rethink in remote work for 2022. We had predicted last year that by the end of 2021, there'd be a larger return to the office with the norm being around a third of workers permanently remote. And of course the variants changed that equation and, you know, gave more time for people to think about this idea of hybrid work and that's really come in to focus. So we're predicting that is going to overtake fully remote as the dominant work model with only about a third of the workers back in the office full-time. And Erik, we expect a somewhat lower percentage to be fully remote. It's now sort of dipped under 30%, at around 29%, but it's still significantly higher than the historical average of around 15 to 16%. So still a major change, but this idea of hybrid and getting hybrid right, has really come into focus. Hasn't it? >> Yeah. It's here to stay. There's no doubt about it. We started this in March of 2020, as soon as the virus hit. This is the 10th iteration of the survey. No one, no one ever thought we'd see a number where only 34% of people were going to be in office permanently. That's a permanent number. They're expecting only a third of the workers to ever come back fully in office. And against that, there's 63% that are saying their permanent workforce is going to be either fully remote or hybrid. And this, I can't really explain how big of a paradigm shift this is. Since the start of the industrial revolution, people leave their house and go to work. Now they're saying that's not going to happen. The economic impact here is so broad, on so many different areas And, you know, the reason is like, why not? Right? The productivity increase is real. We're seeing the productivity increase. Enterprises are spending on collaboration tools, productivity tools, We're seeing an increased perception in productivity of their workforce. And the CFOs can cut down an expense item. I just don't see a reason why this would end, you know, I think it's going to continue. And I also want to point out these results, as high as they are, were before the Omicron wave hit us. I can only imagine what these results would have been if we had sent the survey out just two or three weeks later. >> Yeah. That's a great point. Okay. Next prediction, we're going to look at the supply chain, specifically in how it's affecting some of the hardware spending and cloud strategies in the future. So in this chart, ETRS buyers, have you experienced problems procuring hardware as a result of supply chain issues? And, you know, despite the fact that some companies are, you know, I would call out Dell, for example, doing really well in terms of delivering, you can see that in the numbers, it's pretty clear, there's been an impact. And that's not not an across the board, you know, thing where vendors are able to deliver, especially acute in PCs, but also pronounced in networking, also in firewall servers and storage. And what's interesting is how companies are responding and reacting. So first, you know, I'm going to call the laptop and PC demand staying well above pre-COVID norms. It had peaked in 2012. Pre-pandemic it kept dropping and dropping and dropping, in terms of, you know, unit volume, where the market was contracting. And we think can continue to grow this year in double digits in 2022. But what's interesting, Erik, is when you survey customers, is despite the difficulty they're having in procuring network hardware, there's as much of a migration away from existing networks to the cloud. You could probably comment on that. Their networks are more fossilized, but when it comes to firewalls and servers and storage, there's a much higher propensity to move to the cloud. 30% of customers that ETR surveyed will replace security appliances with cloud services and 41% and 34% respectively will move to cloud compute and storage in 2022. So cloud's relentless march on traditional on-prem models continues. Erik, what do you make of this data? Please weigh in on this prediction. >> As if we needed another reason to go to the cloud. Right here, here it is yet again. So this was added to the survey by client demand. They were asking about the procurement difficulties, the supply chain issues, and how it was impacting our community. So this is the first time we ran it. And it really was interesting to see, you know, the move there. And storage particularly I found interesting because it correlated with a huge jump that we saw on one of our vendor names, which was Rubrik, had the highest net score that it's ever had. So clearly we're seeing some correlation with some of these names that are there, you know, really well positioned to take storage, to take data into the cloud. So again, you didn't need another reason to, you know, hasten this digital transformation, but here we are, we have it yet again, and I don't see it slowing down anytime soon. >> You know, that's a really good point. I mean, it's not necessarily bad news for the... I mean, obviously you wish that it had no change, would be great, but things, you know, always going to change. So we'll talk about this a little bit later when we get into the Supercloud conversation, but this is an opportunity for people who embrace the cloud. So we'll come back to that. And I want to hang on cloud a bit and share some recent projections that we've made. The next prediction is the big four cloud players are going to surpass 167 billion, an IaaS and PaaS revenue in 2022. We track this. Observers of this program know that we try to create an apples to apples comparison between AWS, Azure, GCP and Alibaba in IaaS and PaaS. So we're calling for 38% revenue growth in 2022, which is astounding for such a massive market. You know, AWS is probably not going to hit a hundred billion dollar run rate, but they're going to be close this year. And we're going to get there by 2023, you know they're going to surpass that. Azure continues to close the gap. Now they're about two thirds of the size of AWS and Google, we think is going to surpass Alibaba and take the number three spot. Erik, anything you'd like to add here? >> Yeah, first of all, just on a sector level, we saw our sector, new survey net score on cloud jumped another 10%. It was already really high at 48. Went up to 53. This train is not slowing down anytime soon. And we even added an edge compute type of player, like CloudFlare into our cloud bucket this year. And it debuted with a net score of almost 60. So this is really an area that's expanding, not just the big three, but everywhere. We even saw Oracle and IBM jump up. So even they're having success, taking some of their on-prem customers and then selling them to their cloud services. This is a massive opportunity and it's not changing anytime soon, it's going to continue. >> And I think the operative word there is opportunity. So, you know, the next prediction is something that we've been having fun with and that's this Supercloud becomes a thing. Now, the reason I say we've been having fun is we put this concept of Supercloud out and it's become a bit of a controversy. First, you know, what the heck's the Supercloud right? It's sort of a buzz-wordy term, but there really is, we believe, a thing here. We think there needs to be a rethinking or at least an evolution of the term multi-cloud. And what we mean is that in our view, you know, multicloud from a vendor perspective was really cloud compatibility. It wasn't marketed that way, but that's what it was. Either a vendor would containerize its legacy stack, shove it into the cloud, or a company, you know, they'd do the work, they'd build a cloud native service on one of the big clouds and they did do it for AWS, and then Azure, and then Google. But there really wasn't much, if any, leverage across clouds. Now from a buyer perspective, we've always said multicloud was a symptom of multi-vendor, meaning I got different workloads, running in different clouds, or I bought a company and they run on Azure, and I do a lot of work on AWS, but generally it wasn't necessarily a prescribed strategy to build value on top of hyperscale infrastructure. There certainly was somewhat of a, you know, reducing lock-in and hedging the risk. But we're talking about something more here. We're talking about building value on top of the hyperscale gift of hundreds of billions of dollars in CapEx. So in addition, we're not just talking about transforming IT, which is what the last 10 years of cloud have been like. And, you know, doing work in the cloud because it's cheaper or simpler or more agile, all of those things. So that's beginning to change. And this chart shows some of the technology vendors that are leaning toward this Supercloud vision, in our view, building on top of the hyperscalers that are highlighted in red. Now, Jerry Chan at Greylock, they wrote a piece called Castles in the Cloud. It got our thinking going, and he and the team at Greylock, they're building out a database of all the cloud services and all the sub-markets in cloud. And that got us thinking that there's a higher level of abstraction coalescing in the market, where there's tight integration of services across clouds, but the underlying complexity is hidden, and there's an identical experience across clouds, and even, in my dreams, on-prem for some platforms, so what's new or new-ish and evolving are things like location independence, you've got to include the edge on that, metadata services to optimize locality of reference and data source awareness, governance, privacy, you know, application independent and dependent, actually, recovery across clouds. So we're seeing this evolve. And in our view, the two biggest things that are new are the technology is evolving, where you're seeing services truly integrate cross-cloud. And the other big change is digital transformation, where there's this new innovation curve developing, and it's not just about making your IT better. It's about SaaS-ifying and automating your entire company workflows. So Supercloud, it's not just a vendor thing to us. It's the evolution of, you know, the, the Marc Andreessen quote, "Every company will be a SaaS company." Every company will deliver capabilities that can be consumed as cloud services. So Erik, the chart shows spending momentum on the y-axis and net score, or presence in the ETR data center, or market share on the x-axis. We've talked about snowflake as the poster child for this concept where the vision is you're in their cloud and sharing data in that safe place. Maybe you could make some comments, you know, what do you think of this Supercloud concept and this change that we're sensing in the market? >> Well, I think you did a great job describing the concept. So maybe I'll support it a little bit on the vendor level and then kind of give examples of the ones that are doing it. You stole the lead there with Snowflake, right? There is no better example than what we've seen with what Snowflake can do. Cross-portability in the cloud, the ability to be able to be, you know, completely agnostic, but then build those services on top. They're better than anything they could offer. And it's not just there. I mean, you mentioned edge compute, that's a whole nother layer where this is coming in. And CloudFlare, the momentum there is out of control. I mean, this is a company that started off just doing CDN and trying to compete with Okta Mite. And now they're giving you a full soup to nuts with security and actual edge compute layer, but it's a fantastic company. What they're doing, it's another great example of what you're seeing here. I'm going to call out HashiCorp as well. They're more of an infrastructure services, a little bit more of an open-source freemium model, but what they're doing as well is completely cloud agnostic. It's dynamic. It doesn't care if you're in a container, it doesn't matter where you are. They recently IPO'd and they're down 25%, but their data looks so good across both of our emerging technology and TISA survey. It's certainly another name that's playing on this. And another one that we mentioned as well is Rubrik. If you need storage, compute, and in the cloud layer and you need to be agnostic to it, they're another one that's really playing in this space. So I think it's a great concept you're bringing up. I think it's one that's here to stay and there's certainly a lot of vendors that fit into what you're describing. >> Excellent. Thank you. All right, let's shift to data. The next prediction, it might be a little tough to measure. Before I said we're trying to be a little black and white here, but it relates to Data Mesh, which is, the ideas behind that term were created by Zhamak Dehghani of ThoughtWorks. And we see Data Mesh is really gaining momentum in 2022, but it's largely going to be, we think, confined to a more narrow scope. Now, the impetus for change in data architecture in many companies really stems from the fact that their Hadoop infrastructure really didn't solve their data problems and they struggle to get more value out of their data investments. Data Mesh prescribes a shift to a decentralized architecture in domain ownership of data and a shift to data product thinking, beyond data for analytics, but data products and services that can be monetized. Now this a very powerful in our view, but they're difficult for organizations to get their heads around and further decentralization creates the need for a self-service platform and federated data governance that can be automated. And not a lot of standards around this. So it's going to take some time. At our power panel a couple of weeks ago on data management, Tony Baer predicted a backlash on Data Mesh. And I don't think it's going to be so much of a backlash, but rather the adoption will be more limited. Most implementations we think are going to use a starting point of AWS and they'll enable domains to access and control their own data lakes. And while that is a very small slice of the Data Mesh vision, I think it's going to be a starting point. And the last thing I'll say is, this is going to take a decade to evolve, but I think it's the right direction. And whether it's a data lake or a data warehouse or a data hub or an S3 bucket, these are really, the concept is, they'll eventually just become nodes on the data mesh that are discoverable and access is governed. And so the idea is that the stranglehold that the data pipeline and process and hyper-specialized roles that they have on data agility is going to evolve. And decentralized architectures and the democratization of data will eventually become a norm for a lot of different use cases. And Erik, I wonder if you'd add anything to this. >> Yeah. There's a lot to add there. The first thing that jumped out to me was that that mention of the word backlash you said, and you said it's not really a backlash, but what it could be is these are new words trying to solve an old problem. And I do think sometimes the industry will notice that right away and maybe that'll be a little pushback. And the problems are what you already mentioned, right? We're trying to get to an area where we can have more assets in our data site, more deliverable, and more usable and relevant to the business. And you mentioned that as self-service with governance laid on top. And that's really what we're trying to get to. Now, there's a lot of ways you can get there. Data fabric is really the technical aspect and data mesh is really more about the people, the process, and the governance, but the two of those need to meet, in order to make that happen. And as far as tools, you know, there's even cataloging names like Informatica that play in this, right? Istio plays in this, Snowflake plays in this. So there's a lot of different tools that will support it. But I think you're right in calling out AWS, right? They have AWS Lake, they have AWS Glue. They have so much that's trying to drive this. But I think the really important thing to keep here is what you said. It's going to be a decade long journey. And by the way, we're on the shoulders of giants a decade ago that have even gotten us to this point to talk about these new words because this has been an ongoing type of issue, but ultimately, no matter which vendors you use, this is going to come down to your data governance plan and the data literacy in your business. This is really about workflows and people as much as it is tools. So, you know, the new term of data mesh is wonderful, but you still have to have the people and the governance and the processes in place to get there. >> Great, thank you for that, Erik. Some great points. All right, for the next prediction, we're going to shine the spotlight on two of our favorite topics, Snowflake and Databricks, and the prediction here is that, of course, Databricks is going to IPO this year, as expected. Everybody sort of expects that. And while, but the prediction really is, well, while these two companies are facing off already in the market, they're also going to compete with each other for M&A, especially as Databricks, you know, after the IPO, you're going to have, you know, more prominence and a war chest. So first, these companies, they're both looking pretty good, the same XY graph with spending velocity and presence and market share on the horizontal axis. And both Snowflake and Databricks are well above that magic 40% red dotted line, the elevated line, to us. And for context, we've included a few other firms. So you can see kind of what a good position these two companies are really in, especially, I mean, Snowflake, wow, it just keeps moving to the right on this horizontal picture, but maintaining the next net score in the Y axis. Amazing. So, but here's the thing, Databricks is using the term Lakehouse implying that it has the best of data lakes and data warehouses. And Snowflake has the vision of the data cloud and data sharing. And Snowflake, they've nailed analytics, and now they're moving into data science in the domain of Databricks. Databricks, on the other hand, has nailed data science and is moving into the domain of Snowflake, in the data warehouse and analytics space. But to really make this seamless, there has to be a semantic layer between these two worlds and they're either going to build it or buy it or both. And there are other areas like data clean rooms and privacy and data prep and governance and machine learning tooling and AI, all that stuff. So the prediction is they'll not only compete in the market, but they'll step up and in their competition for M&A, especially after the Databricks IPO. We've listed some target names here, like Atscale, you know, Iguazio, Infosum, Habu, Immuta, and I'm sure there are many, many others. Erik, you care to comment? >> Yeah. I remember a year ago when we were talking Snowflake when they first came out and you, and I said, "I'm shocked if they don't use this war chest of money" "and start going after more" "because we know Slootman, we have so much respect for him." "We've seen his playbook." And I'm actually a little bit surprised that here we are, at 12 months later, and he hasn't spent that money yet. So I think this prediction's just spot on. To talk a little bit about the data side, Snowflake is in rarefied air. It's all by itself. It is the number one net score in our entire TISA universe. It is absolutely incredible. There's almost no negative intentions. Global 2000 organizations are increasing their spend on it. We maintain our positive outlook. It's really just, you know, stands alone. Databricks, however, also has one of the highest overall net sentiments in the entire universe, not just its area. And this is the first time we're coming up positive on this name as well. It looks like it's not slowing down. Really interesting comment you made though that we normally hear from our end-user commentary in our panels and our interviews. Databricks is really more used for the data science side. The MLAI is where it's best positioned in our survey. So it might still have some catching up to do to really have that caliber of usability that you know Snowflake is seeing right now. That's snowflake having its own marketplace. There's just a lot more to Snowflake right now than there is Databricks. But I do think you're right. These two massive vendors are sort of heading towards a collision course, and it'll be very interesting to see how they deploy their cash. I think Snowflake, with their incredible management and leadership, probably will make the first move. >> Well, I think you're right on that. And by the way, I'll just add, you know, Databricks has basically said, hey, it's going to be easier for us to come from data lakes into data warehouse. I'm not sure I buy that. I think, again, that semantic layer is a missing ingredient. So it's going to be really interesting to see how this plays out. And to your point, you know, Snowflake's got the war chest, they got the momentum, they've got the public presence now since November, 2020. And so, you know, they're probably going to start making some aggressive moves. Anyway, next prediction is something, Erik, that you and I have talked about many, many times, and that is observability. I know it's one of your favorite topics. And we see this world screaming for more consolidation it's going all in on cloud native. These legacy stacks, they're fighting to stay relevant, but the direction is pretty clear. And the same XY graph lays out the players in the field, with some of the new entrants that we've also highlighted, like Observe and Honeycomb and ChaosSearch that we've talked about. Erik, we put a big red target around Splunk because everyone wants their gold. So please give us your thoughts. >> Oh man, I feel like I've been saying negative things about Splunk for too long. I've got a bad rap on this name. The Splunk shareholders come after me all the time. Listen, it really comes down to this. They're a fantastic company that was designed to do logging and monitoring and had some great tool sets around what you could do with it. But they were designed for the data center. They were designed for prem. The world we're in now is so dynamic. Everything I hear from our end user community is that all net new workloads will be going to cloud native players. It's that simple. So Splunk has entrenched. It's going to continue doing what it's doing and it does it really, really well. But if you're doing something new, the new workloads are going to be in a dynamic environment and that's going to go to the cloud native players. And in our data, it is extremely clear that that means Datadog and Elastic. They are by far number one and two in net score, increase rates, adoption rates. It's not even close. Even New Relic actually is starting to, you know, entrench itself really well. We saw New Relic's adoption's going up, which is super important because they went to that freemium model, you know, to try to get their little bit of an entrenched customer base and that's working as well. And then you made a great list here, of all the new entrants, but it goes beyond this. There's so many more. In our emerging technology survey, we're seeing Century, Catchpoint, Securonix, Lucid Works. There are so many options in this space. And let's not forget, the biggest data that we're seeing is with Grafana. And Grafana labs as yet to turn on their enterprise. Elastic did it, why can't Grafana labs do it? They have an enterprise stack. So when you look at how crowded this space is, there has to be consolidation. I recently hosted a panel and every single guy on that panel said, "Please give me a consolidation." Because they're the end users trying to actually deploy these and it's getting a little bit confusing. >> Great. Thank you for that. Okay. Last prediction. Erik, might be a little out of your wheelhouse, but you know, you might have some thoughts on it. And that's a hybrid events become the new digital model and a new category in 2022. You got these pure play digital or virtual events. They're going to take a back seat to in-person hybrids. The virtual experience will eventually give way to metaverse experiences and that's going to take some time, but the physical hybrid is going to drive it. And metaverse is ultimately going to define the virtual experience because the virtual experience today is not great. Nobody likes virtual. And hybrid is going to become the business model. Today's pure virtual experience has to evolve, you know, theCUBE first delivered hybrid mid last decade, but nobody really wanted it. We did Mobile World Congress last summer in Barcelona in an amazing hybrid model, which we're showing in some of the pictures here. Alex, if you don't mind bringing that back up. And every physical event that we're we're doing now has a hybrid and virtual component, including the pre-records. You can see in our studios, you see that the green screen. I don't know. Erik, what do you think about, you know, the Zoom fatigue and all this. I know you host regular events with your round tables, but what are your thoughts? >> Well, first of all, I think you and your company here have just done an amazing job on this. So that's really your expertise. I spent 20 years of my career hosting intimate wall street idea dinners. So I'm better at navigating a wine list than I am navigating a conference floor. But I will say that, you know, the trend just goes along with what we saw. If 35% are going to be fully remote. If 70% are going to be hybrid, then our events are going to be as well. I used to host round table dinners on, you know, one or two nights a week. Now those have gone virtual. They're now panels. They're now one-on-one interviews. You know, we do chats. We do submitted questions. We do what we can, but there's no reason that this is going to change anytime soon. I think you're spot on here. >> Yeah. Great. All right. So there you have it, Erik and I, Listen, we always love the feedback. Love to know what you think. Thank you, Erik, for your partnership, your collaboration, and love doing these predictions with you. >> Yeah. I always enjoy them too. And I'm actually happy. Last year you made us do a baker's dozen, so thanks for keeping it to 10 this year. >> (laughs) We've got a lot to say. I know, you know, we cut out. We didn't do much on crypto. We didn't really talk about SaaS. I mean, I got some thoughts there. We didn't really do much on containers and AI. >> You want to keep going? I've got another 10 for you. >> RPA...All right, we'll have you back and then let's do that. All right. All right. Don't forget, these episodes are all available as podcasts, wherever you listen, all you can do is search Breaking Analysis podcast. Check out ETR's website at etr.plus, they've got a new website out. It's the best data in the industry, and we publish a full report every week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. You can always reach out on email, David.Vellante@siliconangle.com I'm @DVellante on Twitter. Comment on our LinkedIn posts. This is Dave Vellante for the Cube Insights powered by ETR. Have a great week, stay safe, be well. And we'll see you next time. (mellow music)

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is braking analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Techniques to protect sensitive data have evolved over thousands of years, literally. The pace of modern data protection is rapidly accelerating and presents both opportunities and threats for organizations. In particular, the amount of data stored in the cloud combined with hybrid work models, the clear and present threat of cyber crime, regulatory edicts, and the ever expanding edge and associated use cases should put CXOs on notice that the time is now to rethink your data protection strategies. Hello, and welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube Insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we're going to explore the evolving world of data protection and share some information on how we see the market changing in the competitive landscape for some of the top players. Steve Kenniston, AKA the Storage Alchemist, shared a story with me, and it was pretty clever. Way back in 4000 BC, the Sumerians invented the first system of writing. Now, they used clay tokens to represent transactions at that time. Now, to prevent messing with these tokens, they sealed them in clay jars to ensure that the tokens, i.e the data, would remain secure with an accurate record that was, let's call it quasi, immutable, and lived in a clay vault. And since that time, we've seen quite an evolution of data protection. Tape, of course, was the main means of protecting data and backing data up during most of the mainframe era. And that carried into client server computing, which really accentuated and underscored the issues around backup windows and challenges with RTO, recovery time objective and RPO recovery point objective. And just overall recovery nightmares. Then in the 2000's data reduction made disk-based backup more popular and pushed tape into an archive last resort media. Data Domain, then EMC, now Dell still sell many purpose-built backup appliances as do others as a primary backup target disc-based. The rise of virtualization brought more changes in backup and recovery strategies, as a reduction in physical resources squeezed the one application that wasn't under utilizing compute, i.e, backup. And we saw the rise of Veem, the cleverly-named company that became synonymous with data protection for virtual machines. Now, the cloud has created new challenges related to data sovereignty, governance, latency, copy creep, expense, et cetera. But more recently, cyber threats have elevated data protection to become a critical adjacency to information security. Cyber resilience to specifically protect against attacks is the new trend being pushed by the vendor community as organizations are urgently looking for help with this insidious threat. Okay, so there are two major disruptors that we're going to talk about today, the cloud and cyber crime, especially around ransoming your data. Every customer is using the cloud in some way, shape, or form. Around 76% are using multiple clouds, that's according to a recent study by Hashi Corp. We've talked extensively about skill shortages on theCUBE, and data protection and security concerns are really key challenges to address, given that skill shortage is a real talent gap in terms of being able to throw people at solving this problem. So what customers are doing, they're either building out or they're buying really mostly building abstraction layers to hide the underlying cloud complexity. So what this does... The good news is it's simplifies provisioning and management, but it creates problems around opacity. In other words, you can't see sometimes what's going on with the data. These challenges fundamentally become data problems, in our view. Things like fast, accurate, and complete backup recovery, compliance, data sovereignty, data sharing. I mentioned copy creep, cyber resiliency, privacy protections. These are all challenges brought to fore by the cloud, the advantages, the pros, and the cons. Now, remote workers are especially vulnerable. And as clouds span rapidly, data protection technologies are struggling to keep pace. So let's talk briefly about the rapidly-expanding public cloud. This chart shows worldwide revenue for the big four hyperscalers. As you can see, we projected that they're going to surpass $115 billion in revenue in 2021. That's up from 86 billion last year. So it's a huge market, it's growing in the 35% range. The interesting thing is last year, 80-plus billion dollars in revenue, but 100 billion dollars was spent last year by these firms in cap ex. So they're building out infrastructure for the industry. This is a gift to the balance of the industry. Now to date, legacy vendors and the surrounding community have been pretty defensive around the cloud. Oh, not everything's going to move to the cloud. It's not a zero sum game we hear. And while that's all true, the narrative was really kind of a defensive posture, and that's starting to change as large tech companies like Dell, IBM, Cisco, HPE, and others see opportunities to build on top of this infrastructure. You certainly see that with Arvind Krishna comments at IBM, Cisco obviously leaning in from a networking and security perspective, HPE using language that is very much cloud-like with its GreenLake strategy. And of course, Dell is all over this. Let's listen to how Michael Dell is thinking about this opportunity when he was questioned on the queue by John Furrier about the cloud. Play the clip. So in my view, Michael nailed it. The cloud is everywhere. You have to make it easy. And you have to admire the scope of his comments. We know this guy, he thinks big. He said, "Enables everything." He's basically saying is that technology is at the point where it has the potential to touch virtually every industry, every person, every problem, everything. So let's talk about how this informs the changing world of data protection. Now, we all know, we've seen with the pandemic, there's an acceleration in toward digital, and that has caused an escalation, if you will, in the data protection mandate. So essentially what we're talking about here is the application of Michael Dell's cloud everywhere comments. You've got on-prem, private clouds, hybrid clouds. You've got public clouds across AWS, Azure, Google, Alibaba. Really those are the big four hyperscalers. You got many clouds that are popping up all their place. But multi-cloud, to that Hashi Corp data point, 75, 70 6%. And then you now see the cloud expanding out to the edge, programmable infrastructure heading out to the edge. So the opportunity here to build the data protection cloud is to have the same experiences across all these estates with automation and orchestration in that cloud, that data protection cloud, if you will. So think of it as an abstraction layer that hides that underlying complexity, you log into that data protection cloud, it's the same experience. So you've got backup, you've got recovery, you can handle bare metal. You can do virtualized backups and recoveries, any cloud, any OS, out to the edge, Kubernetes and container use cases, which is an emerging data protection requirement. And you've got analytics, perhaps you've got PII, personally identifiable information protection in there. So the attributes of this data protection cloud, again, abstracts the underlying cloud primitives, takes care of that. It also explodes cloud native technologies. In other words, it takes advantage of whether it's machine learning, which all the big cloud players have expertise in, new processor models, things like graviton, and other services that are in the cloud natively. It doesn't just wrap it's on-prem stack in a container and shove it into the cloud, no. It actually re architects or architects around those cloud native services. And it's got distributed metadata to track files and volumes and any organizational data irrespective of location. And it enables sets of services to intelligently govern in a federated governance manner while ensuring data integrity. And all this is automated and an orchestrated to help with the skills gap. Now, as it relates to cyber recovery, air-gap solutions must be part of the portfolio, but managed outside of that data protection cloud that we just briefly described. The orchestration and the management must also be gaped, if you will. Otherwise, (laughs) you don't have an air gap. So all of this is really a cohort to cyber security or your cybersecurity strategy and posture, but you have to be careful here because your data protection strategy could get lost in this mess. So you want to think about the data protection cloud as again, an adjacency or maybe an overlay to your cybersecurity approach. Not a bolt on, it's got to be fundamentally architectured from the bottom up. And yes, this is going to maybe create some overheads and some integration challenges, but this is the way in which we think you should think about it. So you'll likely need a partner to do this. Again, we come back to the skill skills gap if we're seeing the rise of MSPs, managed service providers and specialist service providers. Not public cloud providers. People are concerned about lock-in, and that's really not their role. They're not high-touch services company. Probably not your technology arms dealer, (clear throat) excuse me, they're selling technology to these MSPs. So the MSPs, they have intimate relationships with their customers. They understand their business and specialize in architecting solutions to handle these difficult challenges. So let's take a look at some of the risk factors here, dig a little bit into the cyber threat that organizations face. This is a slide that, again, the Storage Alchemists, Steve Kenniston, shared with me. It's based on a study that IBM funds with the Panmore Institute, which is a firm that studies these things like cost of breaches and has for many, many, many years. The slide shows the total cost of a typical breach within each dot and on the Y axis and the frequency in percentage terms on the horizontal axis. Now, it's interesting. The top two compromise credentials and phishing, which once again proves that bad user behavior trumps good security every time. But the point here is that the adversary's attack vectors are many. And specific companies often specialize in solving these problems often with point products, which is why the slide that we showed from Optiv earlier, that messy slide, looks so cluttered. So there's a huge challenge for companies. And that's why we've seen the emergence of cyber recovery solutions from virtually all the major players. Ransomware and the solar winds hack have made trust the number one issue for CIOs and CISOs and boards of directors. Shifting CISO spending patterns are clear. They're shifting largely because they're catalyzed by the work from home. But outside of the moat to endpoint security, identity and access management, cloud security, the horizontal network security. So security priorities and spending are changing. And that's why you see the emergence of disruptors like we've covered extensively, Okta, CrowdStrike, Zscaler. And cyber resilience is top of mind, and robust solutions are required. And that's why companies are building cyber recovery solutions that are most often focused on the backup corpus because that's a target for the bad guys. So there is an opportunity, however, to expand from just the backup corpus to all data and protect this kind of 3, 2, 1, or maybe it's 3, 2, 1, 1, three copies, two backups, a backup in the cloud and one that's air gaped. So this can be extended to primary storage, copies, snaps, containers, data in motion, et cetera, to have a comprehensive data protection strategy. And customers, as I said earlier, are increasingly looking to manage service providers and specialists because of that skills gap. And that's a big reason why automation is so important in orchestration. And automation and orchestration, I'll emphasize, on the air gap solutions should be separated physically and logically. All right, now let's take a look at some of the ETR data and some of the players. This is a chart that we like to show often. It's a X-Y axis. And the Y axis is net score, which is a measure of spending momentum. And the horizontal axis is market share. Now, market share is an indicator of pervasiveness in the survey. It's not spending market share, it's not market share of the overall market, it's a term that ETR uses. It's essentially market share of the responses within the survey set. Think of it as mind share. Okay, you've got the pure plays here on this slide, in the storage category. There is no data protection or backup category. So what we've done is we've isolated the pure plays or close to pure plays in backup and data protection. Now notice that red line, that red is kind of our subjective view of anything that's over that 40% line is elevated. And you can see only Rubrik, and the July survey is over that 40% line. I'll show you the ends in a moment. Smaller ends, but still, Rubrik is the only one. Now, look at Cohesity and Rubrik in the January 2020. So last year, pre-pandemic, Cohesity and Rubrik, they've come well off their peak for net score. Look at Veeam. Veeam, having studied this data for the last say 24 hours months, Veeam has been steady Eddy. It is really always in the mid to high 30s, always shows a large shared end, so it's coming up in the survey. Customers are mentioning Veeam. And it's got a very solid net score. It's not above that 40% line, but it's hovering just below consistently. That's very impressive. Commvault has steadily been moving up. Sanjay Mirchandani has made some acquisitions. He did the Hedvig acquisition. They launched Metallic, that's driving cloud affinity within Commvault's large customer base. So it's good example of a legacy player pivoting and evolving and transforming itself. Veritas, it continues to under perform in the ETR surveys relative to the other players. Now, for context, let's add IBM and Dell to the chart. Now just note, this is IBM and Dell's full storage portfolio. The category in the taxonomy at ETR is all storage. Just previous slide, I isolated on the pure plays. But this now adds in IBM and Dell. It probably representative of where they would be. Probably Dell larger on the horizontal axis than IBM, of course. And you could see the spending momentum accordingly. So you can see that in the data chart that we've inserted. So some smaller ends for Rubrik and Cohesity. But still enough to pay attention, it's not like one or two. When you're 20-plus, 15-plus 25-plus, you can start to pay attention to trends. Veeam, again, is very impressive. It's net score is solid, it's got a consistent presence in the dataset, it's clear leader here. SimpliVity is small, but it's improving relative to last several surveys. And we talked about Convolt. Now, I want to emphasize something that we've been hitting on for quite some time now. And that's the Renaissance that's coming in compute. Now, we all know about Moore's Law, the doubling of transistor density every two years, 18 to 24 months. And that leads to a doubling of performance in that timeframe. X86, that x86 curve is in the blue. And if you do the math, this is expressed in trillions of operations per second. The orange line is representative of Apples A series, culminating in the A15, most recently. The A series is what Apple is now... Well, it's the technology basis for what's inside M1, the new Apple laptops, which is replacing Intel. That's that that orange line there, we'll come back to that. So go back to the blue line for a minute. If you do the math on doubling performance every 24 months, it comes out to roughly 40% annual improvement in processing power per year. That's now moderated. So Moore's Law is waning in one sense, so we wrote a piece Moore's Law is not dead. So I'm sort of contradicting myself there. But the traditional Moore's Law curve on x86 is waning. It's probably now down to around 30%, low 30s. But look at the orange line. Again, using the A series as an indicator, if you combine then the CPU, the NPU, which neuro processing unit, XPU, pick whatever PU you want, the accelerators, the DSPs, that line is growing at 100% plus per year. It's probably more accurately around 110% a year. So there's a new industry curve occurring, and it's being led by the Arm ecosystem. The other key factor there, and you're seeing this in a lot of use cases, a lot of consumer use cases, Apple is an example, but you're also seeing it in things like Tesla, Amazon with AWS graviton, the Annapurna acquisition, building out graviton and nitro, that's based on Arm. You can get from design to tape out in less than two years. Whereas the Intel cycles, we know, they've been running it four to five years now. Maybe Pat Gelsinger is compressing those. But Intel is behind. So organizations that are on that orange curve are going to see faster acceleration, lower cost, lower power, et cetera. All right, so what's the tie to data protection. I'm going to leave you with this chart. Arm has introduced it's confidential, compute architecture and is ushering in a new era of security and data protection. Zero trust is the new mandate. And what Arm has it's done with what they call realms is create physical separation of the vulnerable components by creating essentially physical buckets to put code in and to put data in, separate from the OS. Remember, the OS is the most valuable entry point for hackers or one of them because it contains privileged access, and it's a weak link because of things like memory leakages and vulnerabilities. And malicious code can be placed by bad guys within data in the OS and appear benign, even though it's anything but. So in this, all the OS does is create API calls to the realm controller. That's the only interaction. So it makes it much harder for bad actors to get access to the code and the data. And importantly, very importantly, it's an end-to-end architecture. So there's protection throughout. If you're pulling data from the edge and bringing it back to the on-prem or the cloud, you've got that end to end architecture and protection throughout. So the link to data protection is that backup software vendors need to be the most trusted of applications. Backup software needs to be the most trusted of applications because it's one of the most targeted areas in a cyber attack. Realms provide an end-to-end separation of data and code from the OS and it's a better architectural construct to support zero trust and confidential computing and critical use cases like data protection/backup and other digital business apps. So our call to action is backup software vendors, you can lead the charge. Arm is several years ahead at the moment, ahead of Intel, in our view. So you've got to pay attention to that, research that. We're not saying over rotate, but go investigate that. And use your relationships with Intel to accelerate its version of this architecture. Or ideally, the industry should agree on common standards and solve this problem together. Pat Gelsinger told us in theCUBE that if it's the last thing he's going to do in his industry life, he's going to solve this security problem. That's when he was at VMware. Well, Pat, you're even in a better place to do it now. You don't have to solve it yourself, you can't, and you know that. So while you're going about your business saving Intel, look to partner with Arm. I know it sounds crazy to use these published APIs and push to collaborate on an open source architecture that addresses the cyber problem. If anyone can do it, you can. Okay, that's it for today. Remember, these episodes are all available as podcasts. All you got to do is search Braking Analysis Podcast. I publish weekly on wikibond.com and siliconangle.com. Or you can reach me @dvellante on Twitter, email me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com. And don't forget to check out etr.plus for all the survey and data action. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching, everybody. Be well, and we'll see you next time. (gentle music)