>>Machine intelligence is everywhere. AI is being embedded into our everyday lives, through applications, process automation, social media, ad tech, and it's permeating virtually every industry and touching everyone. Now, a major issue with machine learning and deep learning is trust in the outcome. That is the black box problem. What is that? Well, the black box issue arises when we can see the input and the output of the data, but we don't know what happens in the middle. Take a simple example of a picture of a cat or a hotdog for you. Silicon valley fans, the machine analyzes the picture and determines it's a cat, but we really don't know exactly how the machine determined that. Why is it a problem? Well, if it's a cat on social media, maybe it isn't so onerous, but what if it's a medical diagnosis facilitated by a machine? And what if that diagnosis is wrong? >>Or what if the machine is using deep learning to qualify an individual for a home loan and that person applying for the loan gets rejected. Was that decision based on bias? If the technology to produce that result is opaque. Well, you get the point. There are serious implications of not understanding how decisions are made with AI. So we're going to dig into the issue and the topic of how to make AI explainable and operationalize AI. And with me are two guests today, Shea speaky, who's the co-founder and COO of cognitive scale and long time friend of the cube and newly minted CEO of cognitive scale. Bob pitchy, Yano, gents. Welcome to the cube, Bob. Good to see you again. Welcome back on. >>Thanks for having us >>Say, let me start with you. Why did you start the company? I think you started the company in 2013. Give us a little history and the why behind cognitive scale. >>Sure. David. So, um, look, I spent some time, um, you know, through multiple startups, but I ended up at IBM, which is where I met Bob. And one of the things that we did was the commercialization of IBM Watson initially. And that led to, uh, uh, thinking about how do you operationalize this because of the, a lot of people thinking about data science and machine learning in isolation, building models, you know, trying to come up with better ways to deliver some kind of a prediction, but if you truly want to operationalize it, you need to think about scale that enterprises need. So, you know, we were in the early days, enamored by ways, I'm still in landed by ways. The application that takes me from point a to point B and our view is look as you go from point a to point B, but if you happen to be, um, let's say a patient or a financial services customer, imagine if you could have a raise like application giving you all the insights that you needed telling you at the right moment, you know, what was needed, the right explanation so that it could guide you through the journey. >>So that was really the sort of the thesis behind cognitive scale is how do you apply AI, uh, to solve problems like that in regulated industries like health care management services, but do it in a way that it's done at scale where you can get, bring the output of the data scientists, application developers, and then those insights that can be powered into those end applications like CRM systems, mobile applications, web applications, applications that consumers like us, whether it be in a healthcare setting or a financial services setting can get the benefit of those insights, but have the appropriate sort of evidence and transparency behind it. So that was the, that was the thesis for. >>Got it. Thank you for that. Now, Bob, I got to ask you, I knew you couldn't stay in the sidelines, my friend. So, uh, so what was it that you saw in the marketplace that Lord you back in to, to take on the CEO role? >>Yeah, so David is an exciting space and, uh, you're right. I couldn't stay on the sideline stuff. So look, I always felt that, uh, enterprise AI had a promise to keep. Um, and I don't think that many enterprises would say, you know, with their experience that yeah, we're getting the value that we wanted out of it. We're getting the scale that we wanted out of it. Um, and we're really satisfied with what it's delivered to us so far. So I felt there was a gap in keeping that promise and I saw cognitive scale as an important company and being able to fill that gap. And the reason that that gap exists is that, you know, enterprise AI, unlike AI, that relates to one particular conversational service or one particular small narrow domain application is really a team sport. You know, it involves all sorts of roles, um, and all sorts of aspects of a working enterprise. >>That's already scaled with systems of engagement, um, and, and systems of record. And we show up in the, with the ability to actually help put all of that together. It's a brown field, so to speak, not a Greenfield, um, and where Shea and Matt and Minosh and the team really focused was on what are the important last mile problems, uh, that an enterprise needs to address that aren't necessarily addressed with any one tool that might serve some members of that team? Because there are a lot of great tools out there in the space of AI or machine learning or deep learning, but they don't necessarily help come together to, to deliver the outcomes that an enterprise wants. So what are those important aspects? And then also, where do we apply AI inside of our platform and our capabilities to kind of take that operationalization to the next level, uh, with, you know, very specific insights and to take that journey and make it highly personalized while also making it more transparent and explainable. >>So what's the ICP, the ideal customer profile, is it, is it highly regulated industries? Is it, is it developers? Uh, maybe you could parse that a little bit. >>Yeah. So we do focus in healthcare and in financial services. And part of the reason for that is the problem is very difficult for them. You know, you're, you're working in a space where, you know, you have rules and regulations about when and how you need to engage with that client. So the bar for trust is very, very high and everything that we do is around trusted AI, which means, you know, thinking about using the data platforms and the model platforms in a way to create marketplaces, where being able to utilize that data is something that's provisioned in permission before we go out and do that assembly so that the target customer really is somebody who's driving digital transformation in those regulated industries. It might be a chief digital officer. It might be a chief client officer, customer officer, somebody who's really trying to understand. I have a very fragmented view of my member or of my patient or my client. And I want to be able to utilize AI to help that client get better outcomes or to make sure that they're not lost in the system by understanding and more holistically understanding them in a more personalized way, but while always maintaining, you know, that that chain of trust >>Got it. So can we get into the product like a little bit more about what the product is and maybe share, you can give us a census to kind of where you started and the evolution of the portfolio >>Look where we started there is, um, the application of AI, right? So look, the product and the platform was all being developed, but our biggest sort of view from the start had been, how do you get into the trenches and apply this to solve problems? And as well, pointed out, one of the areas we picked was healthcare because it is a tough industry. There's a lot of data, but there's a lot of regulation. And it's truly where you need the notion of being able to explain your decision at a really granular level, because those decisions have some serious consequences. So, you know, he started building a platform out and, um, a core product is called cortex. It's the, it's a software platform on top of this. These applications are built, but to our engagements over the last six, seven years, working with customers in healthcare, in financial services, some of the largest banks, the largest healthcare organizations, we have developed a software product to essentially help you scale enterprise AI, but it starts with how do you build these systems? >>Building the systems requires us to provide tooling that can help developers take models, data that exists within the enterprise, bring it together, rapidly, assemble this, orchestrate these different components, stand up. These systems, deploy these systems again in a very complex environment that includes, you know, on-prem systems as well as on the cloud, and then be able to done on APIs that can plug into an application. So we had to essentially think of this entire problem end to end, and that's poor cortex does, but extremely important part of cortex that didn't start off. Initially. We certainly had all the, you know, the, the makings of a trusted AI would be founded the industry wasn't quite ready over time. We've developed capabilities around explainability being able to detect bias. So not only are you building these end to end systems, assembling them and deploying them, you have as a first-class citizen built into this product, the notion of being able to understand bias, being able to detect whether there's the appropriate level of explainability to make a decision and all of that's embedded within the cortex platform. So that's what the platform does. And it's now in its sixth generation as we >>Speak. Yeah. So Dave, if you think about the platform, it really has three primary components. One is this, uh, uh, application development or assembly platform that fits between existing AI tools and models and data and systems of engagement. And that allows for those AI developers to rapidly visualize and orchestrate those aspects. And in that regard were tremendous partners with people like IBM, Microsoft H2O people that provide aspects that are helping develop the data platform, the data fabric, things like the, uh, data science tools to be able to then feed this platform. And then on the front end, really helping transform those systems of engagement into things that are more personalized with better recommendations in a more targeted space with explainable decisions. So that's one element that's called cortex fabric. There's another component called cortex certify. And that capability is largely around the model intelligence model introspection. >>It works, uh, across things that are of cost model driven, but other things that are based on deterministic algorithms, as well as rule-based algorithms to provide that explainability of decisions that are made upstream before they get to the black box model, because organizations are discovering that many times the data has, you know, aspects of dimensions to it and, and, and biases to it before it gets to the model. So they want to understand that entire chain of, of, uh, of decisioning before it gets there. And then there's the notion of some pew, preacher rated applications and blueprints to rapidly deliver outcomes in some key repeating areas like customer experience or like lead generation. Um, those elements where almost every customer we engage with, who is thinking about digital transformation wants to start by providing better client experience. They want to reduce costs. They want to have operational savings while driving up things like NPS and improving the outcomes for the people they're serving. So we have those sets of applications that we built over time that imagine that being that first use application, that starter set, that also trains the customer on how to you utilize this operational platform. And then they're off to the races building out those next use cases. So what we see as one typical insertion place play that returns value, and then they're scaling rapidly. Now I want to cover some secret sauce inside of the platform. >>Yeah. So before you do, I think, I just want to clarify, so the cortex fabric, cause that's really where I wanted to go next, but the cortex fabric, it seems like that's the way in which you're helping people operationalize inject use familiar tooling. It sounds like, am I correct? That the cortex certify is where you're kind of peeling the onion of that complicated, whether it's deep learning or neural networks, which is that's where the black box exists. Maybe you could tell us, you know, is that where the secret sauce lives, if not, where is it? And if >>It actually is in all places right though. So there's some really important, uh, introductions of capabilities, because like I mentioned, many times these, uh, regulated industries have been developed and highly fragmented pillars. Just think about the insurance companies between property casualty and personal lines. Um, many times they have grown through acquisition. So they have these systems of record that are, that are really delivering the operational aspects of the company's products, but the customers are sometimes lost in the scenes. And so they've built master data management capabilities and data warehouse capabilities to try to serve that. But they find that when they then go to apply AI across some of those curated data environments, it's still not sufficient. So we developed an element of being able to rapidly assemble what we call a profile of one. It's a very, very intimate profile around declared data sources, uh, that relate to a key business entity. >>In most cases, it's a person, it's a member, it's a patient, it's a client, but it can be a product for some of our clients. It's real estate. Uh, it's a listing. Um, you know, it can be someone who's enjoying a theme park. It can be someone who's a shopper in a grocery store. Um, it can be a region. So it's any key business entity. And one of the places where we applied our AI knowledge is by being able to extract key information out of these declared systems and then start to make longitudinal observations about those systems and to learn about them. And then line those up with prediction engines that both we supply as well as third parties and the customers themselves supply them. So in this theme of operationalization, they're constantly coming up with new innovations or a new model that they might want to interject into that engagement application. Our platform with this profile of one allows them to align that model directly into that profile, get the benefits of what we've already done, but then also continue to enhance, differentiate and provide even greater, uh, greater value to that client. IBM is providing aspects of those models that we can plug in. And many of our clients are that's really >>Well. That's interesting. So that profile of one is kind of the instantiation of that secret sauce, but you mentioned like master data management data warehouse, and, you know, as well as I do Bob we've we've we've decades of failures trying to get a 360 degree view for example of the customer. Uh, it's just, just not real time. It's not as current as we would want it to be. The quality is not necessarily there. It's a very asynchronous process. Things have changed the processing power. You and I have talked about this a lot. We have much more data now. So it's that, that, that profile one. So, but also you mentioned curated apps, customer experience, and lead gen. You mentioned those two, uh, and you've also talked about digital transformation. So it sounds like you're supporting, and maybe this is not necessarily the case, but I'm curious as to what's going on here, maybe supporting more revenue generation in the early phases than say privacy or compliance, or is it actually, do you have use cases for both? >>It's all, it's all of it. Um, and, and shake and, you know, really talk passionately about some of the things we've helped clients do, like for instance, uh, J money. Why don't you talk about the, the hospital, um, uh, uh, you know, discharge processes. >>Absolutely. So, so, you know, just to make this a bit more real, they, you know, when you talk about a profile on one, it's about understanding of patient, as I said earlier, but it's trying to bring this notion of not just the things that you know about the patient you call that declared information. You can find the system in, you can find this information in traditional EMR systems, right? But imagine bringing in, uh, observed information, things that you observed an interaction with the patient, uh, and then bring in inferences that you can then start drawing on top of that. So to bring this to a live example, imagine at the point of care, knowing when all the conditions are right for the patient to be discharged after surgery. And oftentimes as you know, those, if all the different evidence of the different elements that don't come together, you can make some really serious mistakes in terms of patient discharge, bad things can happen. >>Patient could be readmitted or even worse. That could be a serious outcome. Now, how do you bring that information at the point of care for the person making a decision, but not just looking at the information, you know, but also understanding not just the clinical information, but the social, the socioeconomic information, and then making sure that that decision has the appropriate evidence behind it. So then when you do make that decision, you have the appropriate sort of, uh, you know, the guidance behind it for audit reasons, but also for ensuring that you don't have a bad outcome. So that's the example Bob's talking about, where we have a flight this in real settings, in, in healthcare, but also in financial services and other industries where you can make these decisions based on the machine, telling you with a lot of detail behind it, whether this is the right decision to be made, we call this explainability and the evidence that's needed. >>You know, that's interesting. I, I, I'm imagining a use case in my mind where after a patient leaves, so often there's just a complete disconnect with the patient, unless that patient has problems and goes back, but that patient might have some problems, but they forget it's too much of a pain in the neck to go back, but, but the system can now track this and we could get much more accurate information and that could help in future diagnoses and, and also decision-making for a patient in terms of, of outcomes and probability of success. Um, question, what do you actually sell? So it's a middleware product. It's a, how do I license it? >>It's a, it's a, uh, it's a software platform. So we sell software, um, and it is deployed in the customer's cloud environment of choice. Uh, of course we support complete hybrid cloud capabilities. Um, we support native cloud deployments on top of Microsoft and Amazon and Google. And we support IBM's hybrid cloud initiative with red hat OpenShift as well, which also puts us in a position to both support those public cloud environments, as well as the customer's private cloud environments. So constructed with Kubernetes in that environment, um, which helps the customer also re you know, realize the value of that operational appar operationalization, because they can modify those applications and then redeploy them directly into their cloud environment and start to see those as struck to see those spaces. Now, I want to cover a couple of the other components of the secret sauce, if I could date to make sure that you've got a couple other elements where some real breakthroughs are occurring, uh, in these spaces. >>Um, so Dave, you and I, you know, we're passionate about the semiconductor industry, uh, and you know, we know what is, you know, happening with regard to innovation and broadening the people who are now siliconized their intellectual property and a lot of that's happening because those companies who have been able to figure out how to manufacture or how to design those semiconductors are operationalizing those platforms with our customers. So you have people like apple who are able to really break out of the scene and do things by utilizing utilities and macros their own knowledge about how things need to work. And it's just, it's very similar to what we're talking about doing here for enterprise AI, they're operationalizing that construction, but none of those companies would actually start creating the actual devices until they go through simulation and design. Correct. Well, when you think about most enterprises and how they develop software, they just immediately start to develop the code and they're going through AB testing, but they're all writing code. >>They're developing those assets. They're creating many, many models. You know, some organizations say 90% of the models they create. They never use some say 50, and they think that's good. But when you think about that in terms of, you know, the capital that's being deployed, both on the resources, as well as the infrastructure, that's potentially a lot of waste as well. So one of the breakthroughs is, uh, the creation of what we call synthetic data and simulations inside of our, of our operational platform. So cortex fabric allows someone to actually say, look, this is my data pattern. And because it's sensitive data, it might be, you know, PII. Um, we can help them by saying, okay, what is the pattern of that data? And then we can create synthetic data off of that pattern for someone to experiment with how a model might function or how that might work in the application context. >>And then to run that through a set of simulations, if they want to bring a new model into an application and say, what will the outcomes of this model be before I deployed into production, we allow them to drive simulations across millions or billions of interactions to understand what is that model going to be effective. Was it going to make a difference for that individual or for this application or for the cost savings goal and outcomes that I'm trying to drive? So just think about what that means in terms of that digital transformation officers, having the great idea, being in the C-suite and saying, I want to do this with my business. Oftentimes they have to turn around to the CIO or the chief data officer and say, when can you get me that data? And we all know the answer to that question. They go like this, like the, yeah, I've got a couple other things on the plate and I'll get to that as soon as I can. >>Now we're able to liberate that. Now we're able to say, look, you know, what's the concept that you're trying to develop. Let's create the synthetic data off of that environment. We have a Corpus of data that we have collected through various client directions that many times gets that bootstrapped and then drive that through simulation. So we're able to drive from imagination of what could be the outcome to really getting high confidence that this initiative is going to have a meaningful value for the enterprise. And then that stimulates the right kind of following and the right kind of endorsement, uh, throughout really driving that change to the enterprise and that aspect of the simulations, the ability to plan out what that looks like and develop those synthetic aspects is another important element that the secret sauce inside of cortex fabric, >>Back to the semiconductor innovation, I can do that very cheaply. I think, I think I I'm thinking AWS cloud, I could experiment using graviton or maybe do a little bit of training with some, you know, new processors and, and then containerize it, bring it back to my on-premise state and apply it. Uh, and so, uh, just a as you say, a much more agile environment, um, yeah, >>Speed efficiency, um, and the ability to validate the hypothesis that, that started the process. >>Guys, think about the Tam, the total available market. Can we have that discussion? How big is that? >>I mean, if you think about the spend across, uh, the healthcare space and financial services, we're talking about hundreds of billions, uh, in that, in terms of what the enterprise AI opportunity, as in just those spaces. And remember financial services is a broad spectrum. So one of the things that we're actually starting to roll out today in fact, is a SAS service that we developed. That's based on top of our offerings called trust star trust star.ai, and trust star is a set of personalized insights that get delivered directly to the loan officer inside of, uh, an institution who's trying to, uh, really match, uh, lending to someone who wants to buy a property. Um, and when you think about many of those organizations, they have very, very high demand. They've got a lot of information, they've got a lot of regulation they need to adhere to. >>But many times they're very analytically challenged in terms of the tools they have to be able to serve those needs. So what's happening with new listings, what's happening with my competitors, what's happening. As people move from high tax states, where they want to potentially leave into new, more attractive toxin and opportunity-based environments where they're not known to those lending institutions that maybe, you know, they're, they're trying to be married up with. So we've developed a set of insights that are, is, this is a subscription service trust r.ai, um, which goes directly to the loan officer. And then we use our platform behind the scenes to use things like the home disclosure act, data, MLS data, other data that is typically Isagenix to those sources and providing very customized insights to help that buyer journey. And of course, along the way, we can identify things like are some of the decisions more difficult to explain, are there potential biases that might be involved in that environment as people are applying for mortgages, and we can really drive growth through inclusion for those lending institutions, because they might just not understand that potential client well enough, that we can identify the kind of things that they can do to know them better. >>And the benefit is really to hold there, right? And shale, I'll let you jump in, but to me, it's twofold. There. One is, you know, you want to have accurate decisions. You want to have low risk decisions. And if you want to be able to explain that to an individual that may get rejected, here's why, um, and, and it wasn't because of bias. It was because of XYZ and you need to work on these things, but go ahead shape. >>Now, this is going to add that point here, Dave, which is a double-faced point on the dam. One of the things that, and the reason why, you know, industries like healthcare, financial services spending billions, it's not because they look at AI in isolation, they actually looking at the existing processes. So, you know, established disciplines like CRM or supply chain procurement, whether it is contact center and so on. And the examples that we gave you earlier, it's about infusing AI into those existing applications, existing systems. And that's, what's creating the left because what's been missing so far is the silos of data and you traditional traditional transaction systems, but this notion of intelligence that can be infused into the systems and that's, what's creating this massive market opportunity for us. >>Yeah. And I think, um, I think a lot of people just misunderstood in the, or in the early, early days of the AI, you know, new AI when we came out of the AI winter, if you will, people thought, okay, the incumbents are in big trouble now because they are not, they're not AI developers, but really what you guys are showing is it's not about building your own AI. It's about applying AI and having the tools to do so. The incumbents actually have a huge advantage because they've got the systems in place. They can, if they, if they're smart, they can infuse AI and then extract value out of that for their customers. >>And that's why, you know, companies like, uh, like IBM are an investor in a great partner in this space. Anthem is an investor, uh, you know, of the company, but also, you know, someone who can utilize the capabilities, Microsoft, uh, Intel, um, you know, we've been, we've been, uh, you know, really blessed with a great backing Norwest venture partners, um, obviously is, uh, an investor in us as well. So, you know, we've seen the ability to really help those organizations think about, um, you know, where that future lies. But one of the things that is also, you know, one of the gaps in the promises when a C-suite executive like a digital transformation officer, chief digital chief customer officer, they're having their idea, they want to be accountable to that idea. They're having that idea in the boardroom. And they're saying, look, I think I can improve my customer satisfaction and, uh, by 20 points and decrease the cost of my call center by 20 or 30 or 50 points. >>Um, but they need to be able to measure that. So one of the other things that, uh, we've done a cognitive scale is help them understand the progress that they're making across those business goals. Um, now when you think about this people like Andrew Nang, or just really talking about this aspect of goal oriented AI, don't start with the problem, start with what your business goal is, start with, what outcome you're trying to drive, and then think about how AI helps you along that goal. We're delivering this now in our product, our version six product. So while some people are saying, yeah, this is really the right way to potentially do it. We have those capabilities in the product. And what we do is we identify this notion of the campaign, an AI campaign. So when the case that I just gave you where the chief digital officer is saying, I want to drive customer satisfaction up. >>I want to have more explainable decisions, and I want to drive cost down. Maybe I want to drive, call avoidance. Um, you know, and I want to be able to reduce a handling time, um, to drive those costs down, that is a campaign. And then underneath that campaign, there's all sorts of missions that support that campaign. Some of them are very long running. Some of them are very ephemeral. Some of them are cyclical, and we have this notion of the campaign and then admission planner that supports the goals of that campaign, showing that a leader, how they're doing against that goal by measuring the outcomes of every interaction against that mission and all the missions against the campaign. So, you know, we think accountability is an important part of that process as well. And we've never engaged an executive that says, I want to do this, but I don't want to be accountable to the result, but they're having a hard time identifying I'm spending this money. >>How do I ensure that I'm getting the return? And so we've put our, you know, our secret sauce into that space as well. And that includes, you know, the information around the trustworthiness of those, uh, capabilities. Um, and I should mention as well, you know, when we think about that aspect of the responsible AI capabilities, it's really important. The partnerships that we're driving across that space, no one company is going to have the perfect model intelligence tool to be able to address an enterprise's needs. It's much like cybersecurity, right? People thought initially, well, I'll do it myself. I'll just turn up my firewall. You know, I'll make my applications, you know, uh, you know, roll access much more granular. I'll turn down the permissions on the database and I'll be safe from cybersecurity. And then they realized, no, that's not how it was going to work. >>And by the way, the threats already inside and there's, long-term persistent code running, and you have to be able to scan it, have intelligence around it. And there are different capabilities that are specialized for different components of that problem. The same is going to be turnaround responsible and trustworthy AI. So we're partnered with people like IBM, people like Microsoft and others to really understand how we take the best of what it is that they're doing partner with the best, uh, that they're doing and make those outcomes better for clients. And then there's also leaders like the responsible AI Institute, which is a non-profit independent organization who were thinking about a new rating systems for, um, the space of responsible and trusted AI, thinking about things like certifications for professionals that really drive that notion of education, which is an important component of addressing the problem. And we're providing the integration of our tools directly with those assessments and those certifications. So if someone gets started with our platform, they're already using an ecosystem that includes independent thinkers from across the entire industry, um, including public sector, as well as the private sector, to be able to be on the cutting edge of what it's going to take to really step up to the challenge in that space. >>Yeah. You guys got a lot going on. I mean, you're eight years in now and you've got now an executive to really drive the next scale. You mentioned Bob, some of your investors, uh, Anthem, IBM Norwest, uh, I it's Crunchbase, right? It says you've raised 40 million. Is that the right number? Where are you in fundraising? What can you tell? >>Um, they're a little behind where we are, but, uh, you know, we're staged B and, uh, you know, we're looking forward to now really driving that growth. We're past that startup phase, and now we're into the growth phase. Um, and we're seeing, you know, the focus that we've applied in the industries, um, really starting to pay off, you know, initially it would be a couple of months as a customer was starting to understand what to be able to do with our capabilities to address their challenges. Now we're seeing that happen in weeks. So now is the right time to be able to drive that scalability. So we'll be, you know, looking in the market of how we assemble that, uh, you know, necessary capability to grow. Um, Shay and I have worked, uh, in the past year of, uh, with the board support of building out our go to market around that space. >>Um, and in the first hundred days, it's all about alignment because when you're going to go through that growth phase growth phase, you really have to make sure that things were pointed in the right direction and pointed together in the right direction, simplifying what it is that we're doing for the market. So people could really understand, you know, how unique we are in this space, um, and what they can expect out of an engagement with us. Um, and then, you know, really driving that aspect of designing to go to market. Um, and then scaling that. >>Yeah, I think I, it sounds like you've got, you got, if you're, if you're in down to days or weeks in terms of the ROI, it sounds like you've got product market fit nailed. Now it's about sort of the next phase is you really driving your go to market and the science behind how your dimension and your, your sales productivity, and you can now codify what you've learned in that first phase. I like the approach. A lot of, a lot of times you see companies, of course, this comes out of the west coast, east coast guy, but you see the double, double, triple, triple grow, grow, grow, grow, grow, and then, and then churn becomes that silent killer of the S the software company. I think you guys, it sounds you've, you've taken a much, much more adult-like approach, and now you're ready to really drive that scale. I think it's the new formula really for success for hitting escape velocity. Guys, we got to go, but thanks so much. Uh, uh, Bob, I'll give you the last word, w w w what you mentioned some of your a hundred day priorities. Maybe you can summarize that and what should we be looking for as Martin? >>I mean, I, I think, I think the, you know, the, our measures of success are our clients measure success and the same for our partners. So we're not doing this alone, we're doing it with system integrator partners, and we're doing it with a great technology partners in the market as well. So this is a part about keeping that promise for enterprise AI. And one of the things that I'll say just in the last couple of minutes is, you know, this is not just a company with a great vision and great engineers to develop out this great portfolio, but it's a company with great values, great commitments to its employees and the marketplace and the communities we serve. So I was attracted to the culture of this company, as well as I was, uh, to the, uh, innovation and what they mean to the, to the space of a, >>And I said, I said, I'll give you last word. Actually, I got a question for Shea you Austin based, is that correct? >>But we have a global presence, obviously I'm operating out of Austin, other parts of the U S but, uh, offices in, in, uh, in the UK, as well as in India, >>You're not moving to tax-free Texas. Like everybody else. >>I've got to, I've got an important home, uh, and life in Connecticut cell. I'll be traveling back and forth between Connecticut and Austin, but keeping my home there. >>Thanks for coming on and best of luck, we want to follow your progress and really appreciate your time today. Good luck. >>Thank you, Dave. All right. >>Thank you for watching this cube conversation. This is Dave Volante. We'll see you next time.

(bright music) >> Announcer: From around the globe, it's "theCUBE", with digital coverage of VMworld 2020, brought to you by VMware and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman, and this is "theCUBE's" coverage of VMworld 2020. Of course, such a broad ecosystem in the VMware environment. Been talking a lot, of course, this year, about what's happened in the Cloud Native space. vSphere 7 has Kubernetes coming into the virtualized environment. And one of those key pieces of doing cloud is you need to make sure data protection still works. And, of course, VMware has a long history working with lots of companies. In this segment, we're going to be digging into the VMware, and Dell, also, solution for data protection. So, happy to welcome to the program. First, I have, from VMware, Tom Spoonemore. He is a product line manager for Modern Application Platform with VMware, and welcome back to the program, one of our CUBE alumnis, Efri Nattel-Shay, who is with Dell technologies, Director of Data Protection and Cloud Native apps. Efri, welcome back, Tom, welcome to the program. >> Thank you very much, it's good to be here. >> So, Tom, I kind of teed it up in my intro. VMware, for the longest time, for as long as I can remember, we've really talked about that ecosystem, those joint solutions. I remember, back when we started "theCUBE", in 2010, you'd go there and it would be, oh, there's $15, no, $20, for every dollar that you spend on VMware that the ecosystem kind of pulls along. When VMware started building the VMware Cloud Foundation and the VMware cloud solutions, data protection really went along with it. So, the integrations that they done with vSphere hold them in there as the environment. Tanzu Kubernetes, there's a lot of new pieces. But I think some of those principles have stayed the same. So, why don't you start us off. Tell us a little bit, philosophically, how is VMware treating this space, and how data protection fills into it, and then, Efri, we'll get your take on it, too. >> Yeah, sure, absolutely. So, from the perspective of VMware and the ecosystem, as you say, we want to be very inclusive. We want to bring the ecosystem and our partners along with what we're doing, regardless of what space it is, and in the Modern Applications Platform and Cloud Native tooling, we're very much thinking along the same lines. And as it relates to data protection in specific, Cloud Native is a place where, mainly it's been thought of as a place for stateless applications. but what we're seeing in people's deployments is more and more stateful applications are beginning to move to Kubernetes and into containers. And so the question then becomes, what do you do for data protection of those applications that are deployed into Kubernetes? And so, with Tanzu, and specifically Tanzu Mission Control, we have included a data protection capability, along with the other capabilities that come with Mission Control, that allows you to provide data protection for your fleet of Kubernetes clusters, regardless of which distribution, regardless of which cloud they're running on, and regardless of how many teams you might have running on a particular cluster or set of clusters. And so, for this reason, we have introduced a data protection capability that is focused around our open source project called Velero and Mission Control operates Velero in your clusters from a central UI API and CLI. That allows you to do data protection, initiating schedules of backups, doing restores, and even migration from cloud to cloud, from a single control point. And part of this vision is not only providing an API that we can handle directly with our own Velero-based implementation, but also opening that up to partners. And this is where we're working with Dell, specifically, to be able to provide that single API, but yet have Dell, for instance, with their PowerProtect solution, be able to plug in and be a data protection provider underneath Tanzu Mission Control. And so, that's the work that we're doing together to help satisfy this vision that we have for data protection in the Cloud Native space. >> Yeah, agree 100% with Tom. Like Tom has said, when we looked at customer environments three years ago, people talk mainly about stateless applications, but over time, when more storage solutions, persistent data solutions came along, there came the need to, not only provision the data, but also protect it, and be able to do backups, and restores, and cyber recovery solutions, and disaster recovery, and the whole set of use cases that allow a full life cycle of data along the Cloud Native set of applications, not just a traditional one. And what we've seen, we're talking, obviously, with a lot of customers, joint customers with VMware, customers that use our storage solutions, as well as others, on-prem and in the cloud. And what they have shown, to say, there, is that you have the IT infrastructure people on one hand, which have certain needs, and there is the new set of users, the DevOps people, who are writing applications in a new way, and they need to communicate and they need a solution that fits both of them. So, with VMware, with the community, with Velero, we are introducing a solution that is capable of doing both management for the DevOps people, as well as for the other team infrastructure. And, a year ago, we have talked about this coming up, and now it's really there, and it's doing great. >> Oh, Efri, I'm so glad you brought up some of those organizational issues, because it's not just, oh, we have some new applications, and, of course, we need to do data protection. Can you bring us inside a little bit? Your customers, are they aware of what they need to do? Is it central IT that's coming over and telling the DevOps team, hey, don't forget, security, data protection, still super important. How does that engagement go, and what change does that have for the Dell field and the channel? >> Yeah, I think that the more successful organizations really have that kind of dialogue. So, the developers are not operating in silos. They're not doing things themselves. They do, some of the use cases, they do need to copy data for their own use, but they understand that there are also organizational needs. Someone needs to sign the audit pass, the SLAs are in compliance, the regulations are met. So, all of these things, someone needs to do them. And there is a mutual recognition that there is a role for these people and for these people, for these use cases and for these use cases. >> Yeah, I would agree with that. One of the things that we're seeing, particularly as you think about Kubernetes as a multitenant kind of platform, what we're seeing is that central IT operations still wants to make sure that backups are happening with stateful applications, but more and more they're relying on and providing self-service capabilities to line of business and DevOps, to be able to back up their applications in the way that's best for those applications. It's a recognition of domain expertise for a particular application. So, what we've done with Mission Control is allowed central IT to define policy. And those policies then give the framework, or guidelines, if you will, that then allow the DevOps teams to make the best choices within their own field of expertise and for their own applications. >> Yeah, and what we've seen is some of the organizations really like full control over central IT, and some customers have told us, don't give anything to the developers, but most of them are asking for some self-service capabilities for the developers. But then, who is setting the policy? Who is saying, okay, I have a gold policy data protection? Does it mean I replicate to another side? Does it mean I do longterm retention for a month, or for a year? That is for someone in central IT to set up. So, saying what the policy means, or what it actually is, is the job of a central IT, whereas, this application needs application consistency, and it is of gold policy, that oftentimes is the best knowledge and domain expertise of the developer. >> So, Tom, you mentioned Tanzu Mission Control, which is the management solution. Tanzu is a portfolio. Can you help walk us through the relevant pieces here that are part of this joint solution? >> Yeah, sure. So, Tanzu is really a portfolio of applications, or a portfolio of solutions, as you've said. It's really along three main pillars. It's what we call, build, run and manage. Tanzu Mission Control fills in, along with our Tanzu Observability and Tanzu Service Mesh, in our manage pillar. The build pillar is more along the lines of supporting developing of modern applications, developing and deploying modern applications. So, many of the technologies that have come from our acquisitions of Pivotal, as well as Bitnami, make up that pillar, and these are technologies that are coming to fore, and you'll hear more and more about at this VM world and going forward. Our run pillar is really where you'll find Tanzu Kubernetes Grid. Now, this is our distribution, but it's more than just a distribution of Kubernetes. It's a distribution of Kubernetes, along with all the tools that you would need to be able to deploy modern applications. So, all of these three pillars come together, along with services provided by Pivotal labs, to really give you a full, multifaceted platform for deploying and operating modern applications. >> Great, and Efri, where are there integrations there? How does the storage fit in has been a discussion we've been having for a few years% when it comes to Kubernetes. >> Yeah, basically, PowerProtect integrates with all of these levels that Tom has mentioned, starting with the lowest levels of integration. With the storage, VMware has Cloud Native storage solutions, which allow things like incremental snapshots to be taken from the environment. And we're using this mechanism in order to copy data efficiently from TKG, Tanzu Kubernetes Grid, environment, out of the cluster, into a space-efficient data domain, as a target site. So, that's a storage integration. Then, there is qualification and support for the various run environments that Tom has mentioned, the Tanzu Kubernetes Grid, and Tanzu Kubernetes Grid Integrated, as well as things that we're working with VMware in order to enable protection for what has been called the Project Pacific, which really allows you very sophisticated capabilities of running multiple Kubernetes clusters using the Kubernetes cluster API capabilities. So, you can spin up a cluster very, very quickly by VMware. And then, we can take backups of this environment up to data domain target site. And, finally, working with Tom for tons of amount of time and effort to do the integration between Tanzu Mission Control and PowerProtect. So, allowing cloud, multicloud, multilocation environments to be provisioned and monitoring by Tanzu Mission Control, but also protected using PowerProtect. >> Yeah, so, Tom, we talked about supporting the ecosystem, and it's a much faster cadence now than it was in the past. It used to be, it felt like every other year at VMworld, we got together and talked about the major vSphere release. Of course, in the container, in Kubernetes world, we're having a much faster cadence. So, could you just help us understand, what of this is generally available today? We saw vSphere 7 back in the spring. The update, right ahead of VMworld, that really extended Kubernetes beyond just VCF, to be able to be an all vSphere 7 environment. So, we know some of this is here on the roadmap, so help map this out for us, what's here today from VMware and what the timeline is we expect for all of these pieces we've been discussing. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, Mission Control shipped in March. So we're still relatively new, but as you say, we run Cloud Native ourselves, and so we're releasing new features, new capabilities. literally every week. We have a weekly cadence for release. Our data protection capability was just introduced at the end of June, so it's fairly new, and we are still introducing capabilities, like bring your own storage, doing scheduling of backups, and this kind of thing. You'll see us adding more and more cloud providers. We have been working to open up the platform to make it available to partners. And this is, just generally, with Mission Control, across the board, but specifically, when it comes to Dell, and PowerProtect, the data protection capability, this is something that we are still actively working on, and it is past the architecture stage, but it's probably still a little ways out before we can deliver on it, but we are working on it diligently, and definitely expect to have that in the product, and available, and really providing a basis for integrations with other providers as well. >> Yeah, and in terms of PowerProtect, we have told the audience about a tech preview a year ago, and since then we have released a number of releases. We are having a quarterly cadence. So, it is available for the general consumption for quite some time. Talking about the integration layers that we have mentioned before, we are the first stack to protect VMs and Kubernetes and applications using the same platform, the same UI, the same policies, everything looks the same. And we have recently introduced capabilities such as application consistency for a number of applications. The support for TKG is available for now. And, as Tom has said, we are working on further integrations, such as the integration with Tanzu Mission Control with VMware. >> Wonderful, I want to get a final word from both of you. Efri, we'll start with you. We've got this regular cadence coming up. We know we're only a couple of weeks away from DTWE, the Dell Technology World Experience, where, of course, theCUBE will be there. What should we look for the rest of 2020, or any final comments that you have for customers that might be looking at this environment? >> Sure, I think that, two trends that I'm seeing, and they're just getting stronger over the years. The first thing is multicloud, and multicloud means many things to different people, but, basically, every customer that we are speaking to is talking about, I want to run things on-prem, but I also need to run these workloads in the hyperscaler. And I need to move from one hyperscaler region to another, or between hyperscalers, and they want to run this distribution here, and the other distribution there. And there are many combinations of stacks and Database-as-a-Service and other components of the infrastructure that different developers are using on-prem and in the cloud. So, I expect this to go even further, and solutions like PowerProtect and TKG can help customers to do that job, and, of course, Tanzu Mission Control, to monitor and manage this environment. Secondly, I think that protection is going to follow more the workloads. So, application is no longer the VM. Obviously, it's becoming many different components that are starting to span across locations and across environments. And again, the protection nature of these is going to change according to where and how these workloads are being provisioned. >> Yeah, and I would say the same thing about Mission Control, very much multicloud-focused, Today it's largely an AWS-focused solution. We're changing to add more flexible storage options, more clouds. Azure is something that we'll be doing in the short term, Google Cloud platform and Google Cloud Storage after that, as well as just the ability to use your own on-prem storage for your backup targets. Also, we're going to be focusing on driving more policy-driven backup. So, being able to define policies for groups of clusters, define RTO and RPO for groups of clusters, allowing Mission Control to help determine what the individual backup policy should be for that particular asset. And continuing to work with Dell and other partners to help extend our platform and open it up for other data protection providers. >> Tom and Efri, thanks so much for the updates. Tom, welcome to being a CUBE alumni, and Efri, I'm sure we'll be seeing you in the team, in the near future. >> Thank you. >> Thank you so much. >> Stay with us for more coverage from VMworld 2020. I'm Stu Miniman, and as always, thank you for watching theCUBE. (bright music)

>> live from San Francisco, celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage. It's the Cube covering Veum, World 2019 brought to you by IBM Wear and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back inside the Moscow The Center. We're here, Mosconi North, Wrapping up our coverage here. Veum World 2019 Glad to have you with us here on the Cuba's. We continue our 10th year of 10th consecutive year of coverage here of the events to minimum, along with John Wall's joined now by Robin's Lee, who was director of data protection, product marketing and L E M C Rob. Good to see you, sir. >> Hey, Joan. >> So you almost want to walk to the first person I saw when I walked in the room the other day? >> You. And >> now you won't be one of the last on effort to tell Shy, Who is the director of Data protection and Cloud native APS. Adele AMC Effort. Good to see you, sir. Good to see you. Yeah, First off, let's just let's just talk about the world of data protection in general here by sucking multi and hybrid and all these things. Your world's changing a little bit, right? Because of these new environments in these new opportunities. So if you could just paint that 30,000 foot picture first off thematically, how how your world is evolving. >> Yeah. I mean, I think the key would indebted protection is data, you know, and I think that wherever it is created, and wherever it is managed, customers need to look after it. You know this? The old adage that there's only two things that customers worry about one is their employees, and two, is there data. So as we've seen the adoption of of Cloud is a A zone infrastructure model on you're starting to see many customers extend their own premises infrastructure to the cloud on using the cloud for production level applications. They realize that on often they're told, you gotta do something about your data. So that's led to all vendors and especially ourselves over the last several years, really expanding the portfolio and the capabilities that we have from a non premises centric environment to the multi class. >> Yeah, so every ah, a lot of discussion about kubernetes. Before we get into that, you've got cloud native in your title, and Rob talked about data and talk about the applications I'm hoping you can bring us inside is to you know, what's different when we're talking about cloud native applications that from a data protection standpoint, you know, what do you have to think about differently? Is it the micro Service's architecture in containers Fundamentally changed the way things are done, is it, You know, similar what we've done in the past? >> Definitely. We see customers. Some customers are taking what they head back now and they move it in tow. Cloud native infrastructures. A lot of customers are building new applications and new workloads, and they build it on top off new applications. So they basically building a whole new set off applications and infrastructure and want to combine in together and they come to us on Dad, ask us, How do I protect this? And these things spin up, spin down, move around. They have very different life cycle than the traditional applications. >> Okay, Yeah, it's funny. You know, Rob, I think back to you know, it's like tape. You know how we dealt this because of the environment versus disc versus, you know, containerized application. Buoyed by the time I want to set something up isn't that gone and things move around all over the place. It's You gotta put a different different types of environments than you need to span. All of these >> I was chatting with with every earlier, and we were talking about what? What's what's changed, kind of in the last couple of years around the deployment and usage of of kubernetes, the deployment of containers. And after he was saying that one of the most fundamental changes is the introduction of persistent volumes on a Sooners. Persistency comes into the mix. You know, that's where things start to change. And, you know, Jeffrey's phone started ringing with respect to hate. What are you doing to bring dead protection into you know, this environment? >> I think two years ago, everything was Toby stateless on then suddenly, people understand that's not enough. You need to add states some states to existing applications. And then the notion of persistent volumes came along and then customers and developers so that it's actually working quite nicely. And they started relying more and more on moving more state in tow, their applications running on containers, environments. So the first thing that customers ask us about is where I store my data. Where's the primary volume that is done by our storage folks? The next question is, how do I protect my data? And this is where we come into the picture. And we offer an architecture that is built for containers environment and takes care off that life cycle that we talked about before. Containers are coming and going. You need to protect the data and the containers, the data and the meta data together in order to bring that protection level of customers. Looks from, >> you know, as as the concerns about data protection have been elevated now and sea sweet discussions now, um has that created a different approach, or maybe a change of tone or tenor from your clients to you, because the discussions are being elevated in their own businesses. And and so there's Is there a different kind of attention being paid to this or different kinds of concerns that maybe 34 years ago? Yeah, >> I mean, it's interesting. I mean, one of things we were on every couple of years is a ah, global study. We called it the Global Day Protection Index. This year, we we interviewed 2200 i t. Decision makers and we kind of asked them about you know, how how are they value in dead protection and also how the valuing data and the one thing that has definitely changed is that the value of data to them has become Maur critically important. I think it's always been important, but I think you know, if they start thinking about data is capital, you know they are starting to realize that it's only capital if you've got it. If you don't have it, it's It's nothing Thio >> and it's only yours if you have it. Well, yeah, and nobody else. Absolutely. Right here. >> Every kubernetes courses open source and everybody's got what they're what they're doing in it. You've got announcement, some work you're doing with VM, where it's open source. Also bring us inside a little bit. Valero, how did we get to this point? You know this, you know, part of the C n c f. Yet it kind of being submitted, or how does that fit into the whole community? >> Yeah, sure. So, as you said and we talked about earlier this week with Beth and people at the protection announcements We are working with collaboration with Valero now part off Veum, where in orderto being that data protection solution So Valero is an open source projects. It's out there in the open. You have thousands off stars get up. Stars are very popular among the Dev Ops community about communities users you can hear about it from customers that are looking for for solutions. There is very good at backing up cluster containers and applications. And we have a lot of experience in enterprise data protection making sure that you have a solution that, um, has compliance reporting. You contract your data, you can define policies scheduling all of that eso we are combining these two and collaborating with Valero in orderto have a solution that answers. Boston is off the back of that mean and they just want to go home knowing that the production environment is protected, the and the develops people in the communities administrators and they just want toe, get the volume and forget about the protection. Everybody can work in their environment with the tools that they know with permissions that they want, and they can both work together and be happy. And the companies that we work with are the ones that have good relationship between the devil steam and the backup administrators. And they see that the same table and talk to us, and everybody tells us what they want and what they need. As a result, we build a solution so that we'll be able to answer the needs of both of them. >> So do you have to build sometimes those relationships within a company to get them to talk or collaborate in a more conducive environment cause you see all kinds, right? I mean, you see, the full range just talked by then a free that some very successful, some very constructive, maybe some that that aren't on the same page agent. So that's almost part of your responsibility. Coming before you even get to where you could talk about the work, we've got to talk about the collaboration. Yeah, that they're not area >> we really come When there is a story, people try to move their applications to production. The developers are really already working on something, and now the developers want volumes on the I T ops people. Tell them No, no, no. If you can't protect it. According to our rules. We will not pass the audience. We can do that for you, and that creates the friction inside those teams in the organization that we talked with. There is recognition off that already and now they come together to the table and they want to hear something that would they would be able to work with us both on the management on the I T ops and and management on cube control and what develops people are using. >> And it's it's large companies that are coming in talking to us. And I think, you know, when you get a large companies, quite often you have some more of these things different fiefdoms of, of, of users inside. But because they're large companies, they have, you know, certain requirements from regulations and compliance is perspective. So they have those concerns, but and every has been saying is we look at the early design partners, customers that were looking to work with, you know, the big the big companies coming to us. >> Rob, can you just help us understand? We talked about Valero there says some open, soft, soft, soft words. That's the power tech. Just sit on top of that >> s Oh, it's a great question. So, you know, as you know, we introduced power protects after exile technologies world. It started shipping to customers at the end of July. And Coop, in any support, is really the first example of what we said that we were going to be able to do, which is more rapidly bring new workload to new capabilities into our power, protect softer offering than we've ever been able to do before. You know, we're really embarking on a quarterly release cadence, you know, which will allow us to, you know, to do things that, you know in our existing portfolio are released cadences. What's being measured in in many, many months and quite often is long as a year and beyond. So what we will do is the tech preview that we that we announced this week. You know, we will roll that out in a nup coming release in production on that will become available to any of the parent protect software users. So right within the power protect software match me interface. You know that has the VMS support Oracle sequel in file systems. We'll add the additional workload support have been able to protect kubernetes using the same workloads, the abilities to create protection policies and I'm interested every is is with protection policies. Because that she was saying about how the environment can change quite rapidly is that by using a policy, you don't need to watch for those changes as changes happen, the policy. We'll keep track of what it needs to do as far as protecting the new applications as they come up and have to go away. >> What happens is the ones we find. The policies are the arty operations in the back apartments. They want to comply with the rules that they have, and they define the gold, silver, bronze policies, whatever have you and then they can give it to the Cuban, said Means. And, the criminalist admits, can say OK, these are my volumes. These are more applications I will just use keep control and potatoes objects We will discover that will automatically create a schedule that would create that that backup. So in essence, the community suddenly doesn't need really need to care about the compliance rules they need to care about policies and the Becca pod mean can take care of other wrist >> and the applications of driving the policies and not not the other way around. >> Yeah, I mean, the creepiest ad means are used to defining policies in terms of five day provisions, their storage, for example. We want to do the same in the data protection area. >> So as far as things like retention periods, as far as whether or not the data needs to be replicated, where not the data needs to be a tear to the cloud that those are all things that the I T admin team can do on it sort of separates kind of orchestration and governance is, is a big part of perfect ex often >> love to get your viewpoint on is data protection historically was not one of the faster moving things in the I T. Realm Last two or three years at VM World, it's been one of the hottest topic, I said. You know, the keynote on Monday felt like we were kubernetes world. Not quite Cube con just yet, because there's a lot of projects there, but I walked down to the the show floor. It's not storage world like Thursday. Its data protection world is Cygnus lots of glowing parties of people so that customers, you know, the embracing change. And what does that mean for your portfolio? >> Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. I mean, I think over the years, if you think about where you go if you want to learn about data protection, VM world is probably one of the best shows to go to because >> we're >> all here. I mean, I mean, you know when you know, you know, I've you know, I've been crazy enough to be in the debt protection business for almost 15 years now. Um, and it hasn't changed. If you if you want to talk to data protection vendors than VM World, is a really good show to go to. You know, I think that that for us, you know what I am. Where has done is It's It's It's It's It's provoked provided a common foundation, you know, And that's also providing a common foundation to get us from on premises into the multi cloud environment. So once she developed, um uh, great data protection solutions in the van, where environment is that you're your target market becomes quite broad because, you know, there's so much VM were virtual ization out there in the market, but you're absolutely correct. Is that you on the show floor? And it's It's It's an interesting sight >> thinking. In addition to that, you also have obviously been at this in the show, and I think what we have seen over the last couple of years is that customers were coming tow us, asking for solutions. And this is why we were able, with the power, protect architecture and platform to innovate more quickly and respond to those faster changing trends. Because now you have persistency of volumes. Now you have protection. The M were acquired. Help tell, you know, we could work together on creating the solution. >> Yeah, absolutely. Have we've been at the Cube contract for number years. Help Theo. Of course, the president's last year VM were had a bigger presence, but that maturation of the storage component with something we knew would take time. You know, we watched it in the virtual ization world. Those of us that lived through that, you know, 10 to 15 years ago and container ization. It's starting to reach that maturity, and we're getting that inflection point >> if you also want to think about the announcement that path made on the keynote on Monday where he said we're goingto work much more with park protects, toe address, spot data protection capabilities. This is one of the things we're collaborating With the help to your team, we're contributing to the open source. We're building together things that can move in the pace off communities and address the needs off our more legacy. Companies that needed protection with complaints. >> So, Rob, that will keep you in business for another 15 years? >> I hope >> so, gentlemen. Thanks for the time. Thank you. Appreciate that. Especially on your birthday. Right? Tomorrow. Tomorrow, Right here. Tomorrow. Your birthday home for that Happy early birthday. >> Thank you very much. >> We should have a cute cake, but should especially >> the end of the day. >> I know, I know. I'll end of the day. We got something better than a cake. Gentlemen. Thank you again. Thanks. We'll be back in a little bit. Streaming content. Continuing coverage here. Avian World 2019 with some final thoughts from our panelists. Just a little bit. See on the other side for that

(upbeat fast paced techno music) >> Narrator: Live from San Francisco, celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage, it's The Cube. Covering VMworld 2019. Brought to you buy VMware and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone. Cube, the coverage here VMworld 2019. I'm John Furrier. Dave Vellante. Dave 10 years covering The Cube. Lots changed. The game is still the same when it comes to storage back in recovery. Got some new stuff too, some great news. Two great guests. Cube Alumni Shay Mowlem who's the Senior Vice President of Product Strategy Rubrik. Chris Wahl, Chief Technologist at Rubrik. Guys, welcome back to The Cube. >> Thanks. >> Good to be here. >> The game always is getting better in terms of modernization, that's the big trend. Digital transformation their are talks about that, but cloud impact has been something that you guys been riding the wave like I said, great success. I don't think you guys have been classified as a startup anymore, you're more in high growth mode. Let's cover the news. What's happening with the announcements here at Vmworld? What's the big news? >> We announced our new release of Andy's 5.1 and really breaking new ground and expanding our position into new markets around data governance, disaster recovery and we're also bringing in continuous data protection as a core capability of our product. Really excited about it. These are areas that have generally been addressed through sort of separate siloed approaches, and we see a lot of synergy with backup recovery and brought it all together as part of this offering. >> How's the news going over? >> Oh it's been great. I mean if you look at data governance, everyone is struggling today with privacy. How do you discover personally identifiable information in your backup archives? Very hard problem to solve. Generally people do spot audits and checks. We've just made that really easy. Streamline with a backup process. It sort of naturally fits there in some ways 'cause I'm backing it up, why not process that data to discover? Sends that information and classify it and our customers are really excited about that. >> Chris, talk about the architectural shift. 'Cause one of the things that we were observing in our opening day analysis is storage is still a hot startup sector. I mean, storage is not storage anymore. It's evolved. We were even joking this morning with Nvidia and Dalium C guy around H, VDI. That's not VDI anymore, it's user experience. Storage specifically with cloud has certainly changed on premises. Everyone now recognizes hybrid finally as standard, not going away. But the operating model is requiring a new architect, 'cause you can't just take the old and recycle it into the new. We'll talk about what that is specifically and why it's important. >> Yeah and I'll kind of tie that back to what we're talking here with cloud data management. It's kind of this acknowledgement that the way we did IT back in the day, where the storage food group was completely isolated, things went into it, things came out of it, but it wasn't part of that kind of overall architecture. Especially when you start talking public cloud and whatnot, that was just to kind of acknowledge that this model of IT just isn't going to carry us forward, and that's similar to the process of let's take all this backup data with Rubrik, let's index it, inventory it, really start to understand what's going on and use that as like the jet fuel that actually powers our Polaris platform and all of our data management applications. I think that all starts with storage. We had to have that data, add a primary into some secondary location, keep it very efficient, figure out how it's going to get from one place to the next. That used to be data centers, now it's clouds and back and forth. >> It's funny, these sacred cloud categories, backup recovery idea. It's data. I mean, this is a data problem. It's data, it's value is in data. You're seeing platform kind of thinking coming in. We talked about this in Palo Alto in our studio when you came in. >> Yes we did. It's a platform thing, it's not just this tool or siloed approach. >> Absolutely. That was when we spoke last, I had recently joined Rubrik back then. Our vision had always been, this is high value data. Yes, we're going to build back up in a way that is quite revolutionary, but how do we create more leverage out of that data? We're starting to see actual execution to that, both with our radar product ransom where recovery, sonar for data governance, orchestrated DR, exposing more and more value out of that data and it's really connecting. >> I'd love to come back to the announcement, the Andys announcement. >> Shay: Yes. >> You talk about governance, DR, and CDP. You're right, these often times would be point products, but explain to people sort of the before and the after. >> Shay: Sure. >> That you try to, when you walk into an account, you might see like I say, different point products. How are they transitioning? Maybe you could add some color there. >> Yeah absolutely. With data governance, everybody's, everyone's got deal with it today at some level. I use privacy as an example, but truly we all are impacted if you're in health care you've got HIPPA. If you're dealing with financial data, you've got PCI. Generally, the backup data has been somewhat of a black box. The only way to really check it, is to do sort of a spot audit check. It's labor intensive and hard. We're streamlining that process for our customers and incorporating it as a value add on top of what they're doing with backup and I think that's solving a major pain point. On DR, same thing. Separate silo today, generally different product lines, but backing up core objects, VM's, databases and application stacks, which is what you're really trying to do with a DR solution, you know there's a lot of synergy there. We're helping to just bring that synergy together into this integrated platform approach. >> You guys are doing some machine learning. I saw in the news around classification you mentioned it, index. It sounds like a search engine, but again to my point about these categories kind of being broken down, this platform, you guys are using machine learning to do some classification around protecting against breach. Is that right? Could you guys just drill down on that a little bit? What's that all about? >> Yes, so we use machine learning in a variety of ways. In our radar product, our ransomware recovery product, we us it for not only detection of changed patterns in the data. Ransomware techs generally involve people coming in, updating, deleting, encrypting your data. We look at the changing profile of the data, and alert allonomous behavior, and then recover it back to the last stable state. With our data governance product, we're also learning machine learning to discover that PII information and trying to really help find a very rich accurate way of detecting that data. >> So, to killer apps, one Ransomware which, big problem. I mean, you just, you can't look a day without seeing major ransomware. The Texas thing to me jumps out. Coordinated attacks. I even speculate, that's cybersecurity related. Some would say there's some stayed actors on that or sanctioned groups doing that, but that's, again I'm with conspiracy theory on this one, but that's Ransomware. Killer app. Compliance, kind of a boring category, but super important because of the penalties. I mean, compliance is an issue. Huge. >> Absolutely. I mean, you look at GDPR in Europe, compliance bossies here in this country across various verticals. Everyone's dealing with it in some form or another, and there's no reason why that should be a separate sort of process. Why not leverage the data management, like what is being provided by Rubrik to deliver on that? >> Here's another question on DR. One of the complaints that you hear, maybe not complaints, but observations when you talk to practitioners, is they can't test their DR. They can test the fair load, but they can't test the fail back 'cause it's too risky. >> Shay: That's spot on, yes. How do you address that problem? You're all about your modern data management, simplicity cloud. Describe how you solve that problem. >> That's a very, very powerful question Dave and it's so true. Traditionally, customers that are using on prem DR systems need to set up the infrastructure, the people, the processes. It's very labor intensive and expensive, so you can only do it a few times a year max and that's how you know that your DR system is operational. You don't want to discover that there's a problem when there's an actual DR happening. Our approach basically takes the full application stack that you want to protect, we convert it for you into a cloud native format and we can instantiate any one of those snapshots that we're taking that full application at any point in time, in the cloud for you to verify and test and we streamline that process, fully orchestrated. If you choose to keep it in the cloud, we have a cloud native approach to protect it and then you can fail back to your on prem system. We've just streamlined this process in a way that really helps our customers do DR test in a much more frequent basis without that operation burden and challenge that they're dealing with today. >> Talk about, Chris, this Rubrik build open source initiative. Because I want, it's interesting. First explain what is Rubrik build, what's it all about. What's the philosophy behind it? >> I'll take you back a few years, when I was interested in joining Rubrik. The one major defining characteristic of the product that really tugged my heart strings, was a restful set of API end points for everything. Doesn't matter what the product does. Anything you click it's always calling a restful API. That goes to a pain point that I had a a customer, was automating, we'll say any kind of backup product, but a lot of things in the infrastructure space was like smashing my face against a hot iron. (chuckles) >> Chris: You know, it's just not pleasant. >> Bad visual too. >> Chris: Exactly, so I'm thinking- >> I've never tried that. (laughs) >> Do not do that at home. >> The analogies, that's my one gift to the world. >> You need restful API is what you need. (laughs) >> Cute. So, finding a product that not only had them, but wanted you to consume them, made them available across every feature, click whatever existed, was very, very powerful for me and a lot of other people that I work with. Fast forward a few years, we developed quite the library of different source projects for integrating with things like ServiceNow and vRealize and anything that does things from configuration management, all the way to infrastructures code, and we would go talk to customers about these things. You had two camps of people. Either, I need the 100 level stuff. I've never dealt with CIDC Pipelines, automation, unit tests, pull requests, what is GitHub? All the way through, I know all that stuff, give me the use cases. What can I do with your API? We wanted to develop Rubrik Build as kind of a teach you how to make the champagne, and teach you how to drink the champagne. The idea is, all of our software development kits, our eco integrations and our use cases, are bundled into this very friendly ecosystem where it's all open source, we have quick start guides, educational materials, and a number of folks that are on the engineering and marketing teams that are engaging with people that either don't care much about cloud data management and just want to learn kind of the automation dev ops world of things, or are very keep to learn more about CDP >>and stuff like that. So Rubrik employees donating the code for open source. Did you guys create the project? Was it community driven or how was that structured? >> It was kind of three slices. It could be from Rubrik. We built this thing like an SDK. We obviously own and support that. It could be someone found our SDK, and wanted to write a third party integration. Heck, even Microsoft wrote a system center ops manager plugin and hosted on their GitHub site. Or it kind of something in the middle where working with like a red hat on their Ansible integrations is an example. >> What other kind of innovations have come out of that? You mentioned Microsoft doing the GitHub. Are there sort of things that have come out of it, or things that you're hoping to come out of it? It's hard to predict, I know. >> We've had the predecessor of the DR product that we released or announced, was actually born in open source. Many years ago, I had a customer saying, I'd really like to automatically do DR tests like every night, for the se five critical apps. We have the API's, we have the ability to live mount work loads, we tie into the cloud, I was like, there's no reason we can't do this. We had that kind of bit more, manual process, but it does the job years ago that we developed as a use case doing Helper Different Languages, fast forward now it's a product. You can kind of get to see that evolution from idea to sort of hacking on things to get them to work, to now it's a full product and you can just push the button and everyone's going to love that. That's one example. >> Very cool. >> Talk about the Vmware relationship. What's the status? How long have you guys been working with VMware and the ecosystem, and what are some of the new things that are developing in the relationship? >> Yeah I mean, this is a deep relationship. It's been a critical one from the beginning of the company. We integrate and support, and are certified across a variety of solutions. Obviously V Center and in this latest release with our continuous data protection, we've done that in a way that is a certified, approved approach and I think that helps us really build a confidence and deliver this sort of excellent overall experience that our customers are looking for. >> They got that open source aspect too, that's pretty hot right now with the cloud native stuff going on, that's pretty relevant. >> Shay: Absolutely. (chuckles) >> All right well we got to ask, with multi-cloud everything here. What's your guys point of view on multi-cloud? Real? BS? Somewhere in the middle? Time will tell? What's your thoughts? >> Definitely real. I'll add color. I mean, I think- >> Dave: Yeah, thank you. >> Absolutely. (laughs) we used to talk about hybrid just a few years ago and that's still real too, but we see a lot of customer looking at leveraging best in class for different work loads and different services across multiple clouds, and our vision it to be the data management platform of choice across all of that. Enabling that choice, and giving the excellent sort of cloud native experience that they're looking for as they deploy different work loads in these different environments. >> Just share with us. We've been talking at The Cube a lot. There's a lot of us who believe this, that certain parts of the multi-cloud are on the BS side. Now there's that vision that any app can run anywhere without recompiling, without retesting. That's aspirational. Then you're going to need a lot of homogenous infrastructure to do that. The one area that I do think that you can standardize on, is what you guys call a data management, or backup, that you can actually say, okay we're going to mandate that this is the platform that we're going to use across all clouds, and that actually will work technically. >> Chris: Yes. Some of this other stuff, I'm not so sure. >> If you have a control plane, if you will, with data management entities that live on prem as well as localities that are available across public cloud, then it's really just a choice of why do you want to put the data there. We're driving that through our serviceable agreement domains or isolated domains where you can say, this data needs to live in Germany. It needs to be in this particular data center forever, where this one needs to replicate to between France and London, something like that. You can make those choices based on what you're trying to achieve, more around non technical decision making, than actual technical decision making. Which I think has really been kind of, you call the BS versus no BS. It's like, are we trying to do this because we can or because we need to do something? That's to me, the decision between BS or not. >> Well, it's customer driven too. The use cases will drive it. For instance, a security requirement might be build our own stack, I want to be on this cloud, have a backup cloud or the work load might have certain requirements, but again I think the data question's a good one. That's going to be independent of- >> I want to test it with the technologist because if you have, let's say you have outposts and you got Azure Stack, Cloud Customer, whatever, and you think you're going to run apps anywhere and that's not going to happen anytime soon anyway. However, if I want a data management solution across all those, actually that can work. Right? There's not reason it can't because you'll write to their API's, you'll take care of that. >> You're saying that today with like Kubernetes deployments. They're not all the same, but they, everybody's got an offering in there and everyone has a full suite of API's that you can plug into. I do agree that things like data management not only can, but should be ubiquitous across localities. It shouldn't matter where you're at, the experience should be roughly the same. >> It's not that disruptive to say, okay rogue division, we're going to swap out and you're going to go standardize that. >> That's usually where the multi-cloud comes from. (chuckles) it's kind of involuntary. You got two teams, just chose different things. >> Right, right. >> While we got the brain trust on the key here, I want to pose another question for you that I mean, we're going to relive the video tape five years from now when we're going to see it, how it all turns out. (laughs) one of the things we've been kind of talking about here on The Cube, but also leading up to Vmworld this year is Cloud 2.0. Mainly around the following premise. Cloud 1.0 with being defined as AWS, DevOps, Agile, Lean Startup, all that stuff that was we all love in DevOps, compute, storage, scale, all the goodness that came from that. Cloud 2.0 is more of an enterprise cloud kind of configurations, so with that kind of, where networking and security and data are now kind of in the architecture. I want to ask you guys, if that's the premise of Cloud 1.0 was DevOps pure cloud native, born in the cloud, what's your definition of Cloud 2.0? Because a lot of people are looking at it from that simple lens, just trying to simplify that the requirements are changing, the architectures are different, the backup can work multi-cloud but this can't, so there's a lot of moving parts now in this enterprise hybrid world, so what's your definition guys on Cloud 2.0? >> I think increasingly you're seeing the landscape of the infrastructures you pointed out evolving the use of different services across clouds evolving. What's really important is that solutions like data protection don't limit your ability to capitalize on that in our minds, and so we want to build this ubiquitous sort of policy, engine and governance around how to protect my assets and enable whether it's containerized, application stacks that are being delivered or new private cloud deployments that we are not getting in the way of that in any way at all and allowing our customers to sort of broaden and leverage best in class services. >> Chris, what's your definition of Cloud 2.0? >> I'll take us back I mean, we saw this with virtualization. We saw everybody go, oh my gosh! I can get all this capacity used, and all these new services and just going bonkers, and that's where we had like zombie virtual machines and all these other terms that we don't really throw about anymore, but it was the Wild West. Everyone was just land and expand, and we kind of did that with cloud in a lot of cases. You're like, oh look at these new shiny's that I can play with, and now you're absolutely right. It's what about rollback status control and user security? My S3 bucket got hijacked. Ransomware is tearing through. You can now ransomware video cameras and things like that. It's a pretty terrifying world and I think this is that moment, where we take a look back and say, well is it highly available? Is it secure? How do I know that? How am I able to recover from availability or even external threat issues? To me, that's where most of the conversations we have are hard. >> Yeah it's the transformative opportunities is all intoxicating. Oh, this is great, but the reality is, it's not as clean as going to the cloud. >> Chris: Give me something that you know will work. >> I got to build the system out. It's an operating environment. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Totally agree. You guys are doing great. Thanks for the commentary and insight on Cloud 2.0 and multi-cloud, >> Pleasure guys. and congratulation on your success at Rubrik. Thanks for coming on sharing the insight. It's Cube coverage here at Vmworld 2019. More after this short break. (light techno music)

(dramatic music) >> Welcome to this special Cube Conversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier here with Shay Mowlem, Senior Vice President of Product and Strategy at Rubrik here in theCUBE Talk. Thanks for coming in today, great to see you. >> Pleasure, John, pleasure to see you. >> So the thing is, you joined Rubrik, Senior Vice President, last time we spoke to you in theCUBE, you were at Splunk. And then you did a stint at Mulesoft, famous public company, sold to Salesforce for massive amounts of money. Now you're here at Rubrik, thanks for comin' on. What's the story, what happened? >> Well, you know, Bipul, our founder and I, met a few years ago, we were introduced. I guess it was about two and a half years ago. I was running product manager and product marketing at Splunk at the time. And he just impressed me with his vision of what he was trying to do through Rubrik. The company was significantly smaller than it is today. And talked about his vision to really disrupt this 30 billion dollar market. And do it in a way that was very cloud-based, revolutionary. Allow companies to extract much bigger value out of this secondary storage arena. I thought, wow, sounds exciting. But at the time, I was just about to take a bigger role at Splunk, my timing was off. So it didn't work out, but we kept in touch. And we touched base again earlier this year. And I was just so impressed by what he had accomplished with Rubrik. In less than four years from zero to 300 million run rate. The executives that he assembled around the company, the progress that the business had made, the customers, the expansion into cloud arena, the innovation. It was just one of those opportunities you can't walk away from, and so I jumped on it. >> It's a classic Silicon Valley enterprise story. If you look at, he's been on theCUBE, so the folks watching, check out theCUBE video on Youtube or thecube.net. Bitpul, CEO, Founder of Rubrik, great interview. But it's interesting, I mean there's a lot of money thrown at Rubrik. They're growing like crazy. It's the classic rocket fuel going after the story. But there's a unique product angle that I think's interesting. And you're in charge of products and technology for the company. But you've also had a journey in the enterprise. Splunk was a very successful company. Mulesoft, very successful. Saas company sold to Salesforce. Huge tower in San Francisco. There's a new, kind of, generation shift happening with cloud computing that's forcing enterprises to change their infrastructure. And this is beyond just backup and other things. >> Yeah. >> This is a generation, once in a generation shift. >> Yes. >> In BTB, how has it changed things? And you've seen a lot of the enterprise action over the past decade or so and more. But right now, it's more than ever. What's the big shift? And I'll say, cloud force is a lot of change. What's the impact to the customer? >> You know, I think there are two phases to that. There's one that we are serving a market, this backup recovery market, represents a massive area of investment for companies. I've seen stats that suggests that there's 6x as much spend on storage infrastructure for the secondary arena than there is for production grade systems. But yet, this market just hasn't seen innovation since data domain. >> So tons of money, but nothing happening. >> Nothing happening. So we came in initially with a whole new, very customer centric approach, that delivered all of the complexity that this market had seen before, shrink wrapped into a modern era software platform running on commodity hardware. Our customers can be up and running in less than an hour. They can archive and leverage the cloud. And so it's driving both TCO benefits, agility of the business, and allowing them access to move workloads to the cloud, manage the cloud in ways that they'd never seen before. And so I think, certainly that has been one big part of the success of Rubrik. But I think, more broadly on the cloud, we're seeing many companies are really in a hybrid mode. They are moving from on-prem, they're leveraging MSPs, they're starting to build certain businesses in the cloud, and the ability to manage all that centrally, and in a way that is governed properly and allows them to extract real value from it, is something that's really resonating for our customers. >> What was the reason why you joined Rubrik. I mean, everyone has a reason. >> Obviously, you met Bitpul, you guys keeping in touch. Was it the team, was it the technology? What was the one thing that you were attracted to, that put you over the top? >> One thing, I've got so many. >> The most important thing. >> You know, I think I'm going to force you with three answers on that one. >> I'm supposed to ask you to rank them by one two and three. >> Alright, sounds good, I'll end with the last one on the product. >> Alright. >> I fell in love with Bitpul, quite honestly. I mean, remarkable guy, quite humble. Such tenacity, such a focus on customers. They team that he's assembled, to me, was just so paramount. I wanted to be part of this organization. And honestly, I'm humbled to be sitting around the table with folks like Murray Demo, who's our CFO, and Mark Smith, our head of sales from Arista, you know, Kara Wilson, our CMO. And we just keep bringing these incredible individuals to the company and the org. I'm truly humbled to be sitting around the table with them. So that excitement by the way, goes all the way down. The folks that have been hired into the organization are quite remarkable. But the thing that really, from a product perspective, that really is exciting to me, is that, not only are we disrupting this 40 billion dollar market in a way that's really connecting for our customers, we're doing it in a way that is thinking ahead. We're not treating this backup arena as some blob that's going to sit on tape somewhere. We're building it as part of an integrated management platform that then allows our customers to extract higher value services and insight from that in a way that they've never seen before. So radar is, we've had some incredible innovation over the last four months that I've been with the company. With the release of Rubrik Alta 4.2, the new product Radar for Ransomware protection. We've talked about our AWS competency and advancements there. But Radar is an example of a service that we're building on top of this data management platform that delivers higher value for our customers. And I am so excited about the exponential growth in value that we're going to deliver to our customers as we continue to deliver more of these services. >> Yeah, get the technology, got the great team. Yeah, the code of market is going to be interesting. With cloud, you've got marketplaces, you've got consumption by the users, the customers if you will, on your end, is changing, I think Saas is being a big part of it. How has the product road map shifted from classic old school product to now? Because it has to be a service. This service is out there, still commodity hardware. Software's driving the value. That's where the hardware gets sold. That's where the cloud gets sold on. It used to be the other way around. Your hardware drove what you can do with software. So that's a been flipped. >> Yes. >> How are you guys working that in the equation? Software first, cloud first? I mean, how do you explain that to customers? >> Well we're always a software company. And we built Rubrik as a very modern era expandable platform that runs on commodity hardware. And can archive and move workloads to the cloud at its core. I mean, our founders came from companies like Google and Facebook, and had really come from this world. And so, our customers were able to get that value quickly. And I think that was a big part of what attracted them to Rubrik. But if you really fast forward into the future, our vision is to have a ubiquitous centralized data management platform from which our customers can govern, manage, and establish rules that govern all of their applications that they protect across cloud boundaries, across private clouds, traditional infrastructure, cloud workloads, and we really think that's connecting for our customers. >> So about the product road map. Obviously, you're in charge of product and strategy, so you have a great market entry, the success has been documented. You guys have been one of the fastest growing companies in Silicon Valley the past couple of years. I've seen the success. You always have a big party at VM world. Your big show there, lookin' forward to this year. >> Going to happen again this year. (laughing) >> I heard there's a big performer there coming. Last year, it was great to see the Warriors there. So, but product is interesting. 'Cause at your start up, you want to have a beachhead, secure a core positioning, and then look at, kind of holistically, what the customers might want. >> Yeah. >> Can you share some insight into what that product roadmap is? And how are you guys fortifying your core and what are you adding onto the roadmap? >> Yeah, you know, the first thing that we did when we came out, was to provide this capability to protect your data and make it really easy to use, archive to the cloud, and we focused on the VMware and hypervisors, and it was very well received. And over the years, we've expanded to support other areas, other data, other applications. And so our strategy, certainly is going to continue to do that with the vision of protecting all of our customer's applications and data, regardless of where they reside. Whether they are traditional infrastructure applications running on PRIM, in private clouds, or new modern architectures that are running in the cloud. The ability to manage all of that. And that's certainly going to continue to be one of the directions of the roadmap strategy. The other is, as I mentioned, we're not really looking at these protected images as black boxes or tape images. We're going to enable our customers to extract value out of them in a way that they haven't seen before by introspecting this data and revealing insights from it. >> What's the current situation? So why can't they get that today? >> Well I think, typically, these images are stored in a proprietary blob form. And you can't really see much in there. >> You can't unlock it at all. >> You can't unlock it. And you can't really know much about what's even in the black box. And so, from the beginning, we started capturing meta-data that allows customers to classify this data and get insight into, well what applications are actually running in this particular snapshot. And so we continue to extract that level of value that is really connecting for our customers in allowing them to resurrect, move workloads, introspect for compliance reasons or otherwise in ways that, I think, are just really important. >> Yeah, things like GDPR for instance, alone. It gives it as a great use case. >> Absolutely. >> Alright, so what's the big picture? If you had to go talk to your friends and say, hey I joined Rubrik. And they say, I've never heard of Rubrik, what do they do? You don't say backup company, you say data company. How do you describe the company? >> I talk about a company that's providing data management for non-production systems. And allowing customers to extract value in ways that they haven't seen before. And I think, candidly, John, I have been very fortunate to work with some great companies. I have never seen an opportunity as exciting and as big as what Rubrik represents. It's just so important to our customers. Everybody has to protect their apps. And we're able to do it an a way that's going to allow them to extract so much more value. >> And what was your official start date? You started a couple months ago? >> April first. >> April first, four months roughly, yeah. >> Exactly, thrilled. >> And your impression, as you walk in. What's the DNA, what's the vibe of the company? If you had to describe the DNA of the company. >> You know, I'm really thrilled. I am really thrilled to be part of this organization. There's a deep sense of culture. One of the things that attracted me early on was there was an article written about Bipul talking about radical transparency. Open board room meetings, I'd never seen that before. And you know what it's about? It's about employee empowerment, he is so committed to that. To making sure that we are able to set everybody up to deliver their best in the organization. And I think it's spot on. It's why we're innovating so quickly. It's why we're attracting such top talent at all levels of the organization. And it's why I'm so confident about the future of this company. >> That's great. And you know, one of the things too that I want to get your thoughts on. Because you see in cloud disrupt a lot of things, and a great opportunity for you guys. You know, we're seeing it out there, and we talked to end-user enterprises. That the common answer is, you know clouds, that we got to go there. But the one thing that's interesting, is they all say, no matter what we do, when we talk about cloud for them, it makes them change their infrastructure. >> Yes. >> On premises, and what they do in the cloud. So it's a rethinking of things. So that's one. So that's opening up new markets. So question for you we have is, as you guys look at new markets, things like public sector for instance. We're seeing, I wrote a story today, it's looking like Oracle is challenging Amazon for the Department of Defense Deal. So public sector and global public sector. Not just in United States is a very interesting market. How are you guys doing in say that market? I know you're strong in the enterprise, but what's the sector angle? You guys competing there, you winning, what's the story? >> We are, and I would say there are multiple motions in addition to the public sector example. We're seeing a lot of Global 2000 organizations moving to manage service providers. And so that's an example of a private cloud model that really works for a lot of folks in federal organizations as well. Really looking to have a tenant, well-secured service model for their various agencies. And that is very aligned with what we're doing. In fact, in our Alta 4.2 release, we talked about Envoy that really advances how service providers can, and manage service providers even within organizations, can actually enable more self servicing capability in that regard. We see these varying segments. >> So you see public sector as an opportunity for you guys? >> No doubt. In fact, if you look at the rubric customer base today, it really spans the gamut of markets across the board, including public sector and state local agencies as well. >> Well we know you got a great relationship with Amazon Web Services, AWS. You're a competency partner with them, which is the highest award or level you can get. What is your relation with the other clouds, Google, Microsoft, Alibaba, and others? How do you guys relate to those other clouds? >> Our customers run on all platforms. And Rubrik does have a relationship with Microsoft, certainly. In fact, we have a co-sale agreement with them. We support Ajar at a relatively deep level. Same thing with Google Cloud. We enable our customers to. >> You're agnostic on cloud, basically. >> We are agnostic, and the point is, I think every one of these cloud platforms has their own unique angle and value, and we want to enable our customers to really leverage the platform of their choice. >> So a lot young people are lookin' at career choices. And some of the jobs are out there that haven't even been invented yet. At school starts to figure out curriculum, starting to see computer science. Women in tech is booming. You're seeing a lot of different, new kinds of jobs around data science, for instance. What do you advise young people, who are either in high school or college, who are thinking about careers? You don't have the classic, I'm going to be a software engineer. You could be a software developer, software artist, there's different jobs in management, marketing. All kinds of different scopes. What's the current track that you would recommend people to explore if they're interested in getting in tech? >> You know, I think it's remarkable to me to see how the internship programs have evolved. And how active they are. I was initially recruited into Oracle directly out of college. It was a very regimented process of recruiting from college. Well now you've got these internships. And I tell you, some of the interns that have worked with companies that I have been a part of just impress the hell out of me. So that's a great way to get in, to see what's about, and to have an opportunity to add value. And every single time one of those interns does something remarkable, and it happens all the time, there is an offer on the table for them to come back, too. So I think that's a very good way with many of these organizations to get in. >> I mean, it's so interesting. We do a lot of interviews. And there's no classic cookie cutter job anymore. I think you're starting to see interdisciplinary opportunities that are coming up. Some computer science, little bit of sociology, or business mixed, it's very interesting. Almost an alchemy of different projects out there that people can get involved in. >> Absolutely. >> Open source certainly is a big one. >> And it's fun because when we get new college grads, we just give them the opportunity to do a lot of different things in rotations. And that helps them also sort of get a sense of where their passion lies and what they want to do. And it's exactly the right thing to demand as you're coming into the workforce. >> It's interesting, at Google Cloud, I was talking with some folks over there. And you know, the women in tech conversation, and opportunity recognition and to level up. So many new opportunities that anyone of any gender or race can come in and quickly level up. >> Yes. >> 'Cause it's so new, the technology with Cloud. It's kind of interesting. >> Yes, I mean, I think it all comes down to your personal ability and commitment and work ethic and drive. And there's no end in sight to what's possible. >> That's right, well thanks for coming on theCUBE. Great to see you, and congratulations on your new role at Rubrik. Great company, right down the street here in Palo Alto. Rubrik, new Senior Vice President of Product and Strategy here inside theCUBE. For Cube conversation, I'm John Furrier here in Palo Alto in our studios. Thanks for watching. (dramatic music)

>>Welcome to the Cube's Continuing coverage of AMD's fourth generation Epic launch. I'm Dave Nicholson and I'm joining you here in our Palo Alto Studios. We have two very interesting guests to dive into some of the announcements that have been made and maybe take a look at this from an AI and ML perspective. Our first guest is Milland Doley. He's a senior director for software and solutions at amd, and we're also joined by Shamus Jones, who's a director of server engineering at Dell Technologies. Welcome gentlemen. How are you? >>Very good, thank >>You. Welcome to the Cube. So let's start out really quickly, Shamus, what, give us a thumbnail sketch of what you do at Dell. >>Yeah, so I'm the director of technical marketing engineering here at Dell, and our team really takes a look at the technical server portfolio and solutions and ensures that we can look at, you know, the performance metrics, benchmarks, and performance characteristics, so that way we can give customers a good idea of what they can expect from the server portfolio when they're looking to buy Power Edge from Dell. >>Milland, how about you? What's, what's new at a M D? What do you do there? >>Great to be here. Thank you for having me at amd, I'm the senior director of performance engineering and ISV ecosystem enablement, which is a long winter way of saying we do a lot of benchmarks, improved performance and demonstrate with wonderful partners such as Shamus and Dell, the combined leverage that AMD four generation processes and Dell systems can bring to bear on a multitude of applications across the industry spectrum. >>Shamus, talk about that relationship a little bit more. The relationship between a M D and Dell. How far back does it go? What does it look like in practical terms? >>Absolutely. So, you know, ever since AM MD reentered the server space, we've had a very close relationship. You know, it's one of those things where we are offering solutions that are out there to our customers no matter what generation A portfolio, if they're, if they're demanding either from their competitor or a m d, we offer a portfolio solutions that are out there. What we're finding is that within their generational improvements, they're just getting better and better and better. Really exciting things happening from a m D at the moment, and we're seeing that as we engineer those CPU stacks into our, our server portfolio, you know, we're really seeing unprecedented performance across the board. So excited about the, the history, you know, my team and Lin's team work very closely together, so much so that we were communicating almost on a daily basis around portfolio platforms and updates around the, the, the benchmarks testing and, and validation efforts. >>So Melind, are you happy with these PowerEdge boxes that Seamus is building to, to house, to house your baby? >>We are delighted, you know, it's hard to find stronger partners than Shamus and Dell with AMD's, second generation epic service CPUs. We already had undisputable industry performance leadership, and then with the third and now the fourth generation CPUs, we've just increased our lead with competition. We've got so many outstanding features at the platform, at the CPU level, everybody focuses on the high core counts, but there's also the DDR five, the memory, the io, and the storage subsystem. So we believe we have a fantastic performance and performance per dollar performance per what edge over competition, and we look to partners such as Dell to help us showcase that leadership. >>Well. So Shay Yeah, through Yeah, go ahead >>Dave. What, what I'd add, Dave, is that through the, the partnership that we've had, you know, we've been able to develop subsystems and platform features that historically we couldn't have really things around thermals power efficiency and, and efficiency within the platform. That means that customers can get the most out of their compute infrastructure. >>So this is gonna be a big question moving forward as next generation platforms are rolled out, there's the potential for people to have sticker shock. You talk about something that has eight or 12 cores in a, in a physical enclosure versus 96 cores, and, and I guess the, the question is, do the ROI and TCO numbers look good for someone to make that upgrade? Shamus, you wanna, you wanna hit that first or you guys are integrated? >>Absolutely, yeah, sorry. Absolutely. So we, I'll tell you what, at the moment, customers really can't afford not to upgrade at the moment, right? We've taken a look at the cost basis of keeping older infrastructure in place, let's say five or seven year old infrastructure servers that are, that are drawing more power maybe are, are poorly utilized within the infrastructure and take more and more effort and time to manage, maintain and, and really keep in production. So as customers look to upgrade or refresh their platforms, what we're finding right is that they can take a dynamic consolidation sometimes 5, 7, 8 to one consolidation depending on which platform they have as a historical and which one they're looking to upgrade to. Within AI specifically and machine learning frameworks, we're seeing really unprecedented performance. Lin's team partnered with us to deliver multiple benchmarks for the launch, some of which we're still continuing to see the goodness from things like TP C X AI as a framework, and I'm talking about here specifically the CPU U based performance. >>Even though in a lot of those AI frameworks, you would also expect to have GPUs, which all of the four platforms that we're offering on the AM MD portfolio today offer multiple G P U offerings. So we're seeing a balance between a huge amount of C P U gain and performance, as well as more and more GPU offerings within the platform. That was real, that was a real challenge for us because of the thermal challenges. I mean, you think GPUs are going up 300, 400 watt, these CPUs at 96 core are, are quite demanding thermally, but what we're able to do is through some, some unique smart cooling engineering within the, the PowerEdge portfolio, we can take a look at those platforms and make the most efficient use case by having things like telemetry within the platform so that way we can dynamically change fan speeds to get customers the best performance without throttling based on their need. >>Melin the cube was at the Supercomputing conference in Dallas this year, supercomputing conference 2022, and a lot of the discussion was around not only advances in microprocessor technology, but also advances in interconnect technology. How do you manage that sort of research partnership with Dell when you aren't strictly just focusing on the piece that you are bringing to the party? It's kind of a potluck, you know, we, we, we, we mentioned P C I E Gen five or 5.0, whatever you want to call it, new DDR storage cards, Nicks, accelerators, all of those, all of those things. How do you keep that straight when those aren't things that you actually build? >>Well, excellent question, Dave. And you know, as we are developing the next platform, obviously the, the ongoing relationship is there with Dell, but we start way before launch, right? Sometimes it's multiple years before launch. So we are not just focusing on the super high core counts at the CPU level and the platform configurations, whether it's single socket or dual socket, we are looking at it from the memory subsystem from the IO subsystem, P c i lanes for storage is a big deal, for example, in this generation. So it's really a holistic approach. And look, core counts are, you know, more important at the higher end for some customers h HPC space, some of the AI applications. But on the lower end you have database applications or some other is s v applications that care a lot about those. So it's, I guess different things matter to different folks across verticals. >>So we partnered with Dell very early in the cycle, and it's really a joint co-engineering. Shamus talked about the focus on AI with TP C X xci, I, so we set five world records in that space just on that one benchmark with AD and Dell. So fantastic kick kick off to that across a multitude of scale factors. But PPP c Xci is not just the only thing we are focusing on. We are also collaborating with Dell and des e i on some of the transformer based natural language processing models that we worked on, for example. So it's not just a steep CPU story, it's CPU platform, es subsystem software and the whole thing delivering goodness across the board to solve end user problems in AI and and other verticals. >>Yeah, the two of you are at the tip of the spear from a performance perspective. So I know it's easy to get excited about world records and, and they're, they're fantastic. I know Shamus, you know, that, you know, end user customers might, might immediately have the reaction, well, I don't need a Ferrari in my data center, or, you know, what I need is to be able to do more with less. Well, aren't we delivering that also? And you know, you imagine you milland you mentioned natural, natural language processing. Shamus, are you thinking in 2023 that a lot more enterprises are gonna be able to afford to do things like that? I mean, what are you hearing from customers on this front? >>I mean, while the adoption of the top bin CPU stack is, is definitely the exception, not the rule today we are seeing marked performance, even when we look at the mid bin CPU offerings from from a m d, those are, you know, the most common sold SKUs. And when we look at customers implementations, really what we're seeing is the fact that they're trying to make the most, not just of dollar spend, but also the whole subsystem that Melin was talking about. You know, the fact that balanced memory configs can give you marked performance improvements, not just at the CPU level, but as actually all the way through to the, to the application performance. So it's, it's trying to find the correct balance between the application needs, your budget, power draw and infrastructure within the, the data center, right? Because not only could you, you could be purchasing and, and look to deploy the most powerful systems, but if you don't have an infrastructure that's, that's got the right power, right, that's a large challenge that's happening right now and the right cooling to deal with the thermal differences of the systems, might you wanna ensure that, that you can accommodate those for not just today but in the future, right? >>So it's, it's planning that balance. >>If I may just add onto that, right? So when we launched, not just the fourth generation, but any generation in the past, there's a natural tendency to zero in on the top bin and say, wow, we've got so many cores. But as Shamus correctly said, it's not just that one core count opn, it's, it's the whole stack. And we believe with our four gen CPU processor stack, we've simplified things so much. We don't have, you know, dozens and dozens of offerings. We have a fairly simple skew stack, but we also have a very efficient skew stack. So even, even though at the top end we've got 96 scores, the thermal budget that we require is fairly reasonable. And look, with all the energy crisis going around, especially in Europe, this is a big deal. Not only do customers want performance, but they're also super focused on performance per want. And so we believe with this generation, we really delivered not just on raw performance, but also on performance per dollar and performance per one. >>Yeah. And it's not just Europe, I'm, we're, we are here in Palo Alto right now, which is in California where we all know the cost of an individual kilowatt hour of electricity because it's quite, because it's quite high. So, so thermals, power cooling, all of that, all of that goes together and that, and that drives cost. So it's a question of how much can you get done per dollar shame as you made the point that you, you're not, you don't just have a one size fits all solution that it's, that it's fit for function. I, I'm, I'm curious to hear from you from the two of you what your thoughts are from a, from a general AI and ML perspective. We're starting to see right now, if you hang out on any kind of social media, the rise of these experimental AI programs that are being presented to the public, some will write stories for you based on prom, some will create images for you. One of the more popular ones will create sort of a, your superhero alter ego for, I, I can't wait to do it, I just got the app on my phone. So those are all fun and they're trivial, but they sort of get us used to this idea that, wow, these systems can do things. They can think on their own in a certain way. W what do, what do you see the future of that looking like over the next year in terms of enterprises, what they're going to do for it with it >>Melan? Yeah, I can go first. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, >>Sure. Yeah. Good. >>So the couple of examples, Dave, that you mentioned are, I, I guess it's a blend of novelty and curiosity. You know, people using AI to write stories or poems or, you know, even carve out little jokes, check grammar and spelling very useful, but still, you know, kind of in the realm of novelty in the mainstream, in the enterprise. Look, in my opinion, AI is not just gonna be a vertical, it's gonna be a horizontal capability. We are seeing AI deployed across the board once the models have been suitably trained for disparate functions ranging from fraud detection or anomaly detection, both in the financial markets in manufacturing to things like image classification or object detection that you talked about in, in the sort of a core AI space itself, right? So we don't think of AI necessarily as a vertical, although we are showcasing it with a specific benchmark for launch, but we really look at AI emerging as a horizontal capability and frankly, companies that don't adopt AI on a massive scale run the risk of being left behind. >>Yeah, absolutely. There's an, an AI as an outcome is really something that companies, I, I think of it in the fact that they're adopting that and the frameworks that you're now seeing as the novelty pieces that Melin was talking about is, is really indicative of the under the covers activity that's been happening within infrastructures and within enterprises for the past, let's say 5, 6, 7 years, right? The fact that you have object detection within manufacturing to be able to, to be able to do defect detection within manufacturing lines. Now that can be done on edge platforms all the way at the device. So you're no longer only having to have things be done, you know, in the data center, you can bring it right out to the edge and have that high performance, you know, inferencing training models. Now, not necessarily training at the edge, but the inferencing models especially, so that way you can, you know, have more and, and better use cases for some of these, these instances things like, you know, smart cities with, with video detection. >>So that way they can see, especially during covid, we saw a lot of hospitals and a lot of customers that were using using image and, and spatial detection within their, their video feeds to be able to determine who and what employees were at risk during covid. So there's a lot of different use cases that have been coming around. I think the novelty aspect of it is really interesting and I, I know my kids, my daughters love that, that portion of it, but really what's been happening has been exciting for quite a, quite a period of time in the enterprise space. We're just now starting to actually see those come to light in more of a, a consumer relevant kind of use case. So the technology that's been developed in the data center around all of these different use cases is now starting to feed in because we do have more powerful compute at our fingertips. We do have the ability to talk more about the framework and infrastructure that's that's right out at the edge. You know, I know Dave in the past you've said things like the data center of, you know, 20 years ago is now in my hand as, as my cell phone. That's right. And, and that's, that's a fact and I'm, it's exciting to think where it's gonna be in the next 10 or 20 years. >>One terabyte baby. Yeah. One terabyte. Yeah. It's mind bo. Exactly. It's mind boggling. Yeah. And it makes me feel old. >>Yeah, >>Me too. And, and that and, and Shamus, that all sounded great. A all I want is a picture of me as a superhero though, so you guys are already way ahead of the curve, you know, with, with, with that on that note, Seamus wrap us up with, with a, with kind of a summary of the, the highlights of what we just went through in terms of the performance you're seeing out of this latest gen architecture from a md. >>Absolutely. So within the TPC xai frameworks that Melin and my team have worked together to do, you know, we're seeing unprecedented price performance. So the fact that you can get 220% uplift gen on gen for some of these benchmarks and, you know, you can have a five to one consolidation means that if you're looking to refresh platforms that are historically legacy, you can get a, a huge amount of benefit, both in reduction in the number of units that you need to deploy and the, the amount of performance that you can get per unit. You know, Melinda had mentioned earlier around CPU performance and performance per wat, specifically on the Tu socket two U platform using the fourth generation a m d Epic, you know, we're seeing a 55% higher C P U performance per wat that is that, you know, when for people who aren't necessarily looking at these statistics, every generation of servers, that that's, that is a huge jump leap forward. >>That combined with 121% higher spec scores, you know, as a benchmark, those are huge. Normally we see, let's say a 40 to 60% performance improvement on the spec benchmarks, we're seeing 121%. So while that's really impressive at the top bin, we're actually seeing, you know, large percentile improvements across the mid bins as well, you know, things in the range of like 70 to 90% performance improvements in those standard bins. So it, it's a, it's a huge performance improvement, a power efficiency, which means customers are able to save energy, space and time based on, on their deployment size. >>Thanks for that Shamus, sadly, gentlemen, our time has expired. With that, I want to thank both of you. It's a very interesting conversation. Thanks for, thanks for being with us, both of you. Thanks for joining us here on the Cube for our coverage of AMD's fourth generation Epic launch. Additional information, including white papers and benchmarks plus editorial coverage can be found on does hardware matter.com.

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's the queue with digital coverage of DockerCon live 2020. Brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome, welcome, welcome to DockerCon 2020. We got over 50,000 people registered so there's clearly a ton of interest in the world of Docker and Eddie's as I like to call it. And we've assembled a power panel of Open Source and cloud native experts to talk about where things stand in 2020 and where we're headed. I'm Shawn Conley, I'll be the moderator for today's panel. I'm also a proud alum of JBoss, Red Hat, SpringSource, VMware and Hortonworks and I'm broadcasting from my hometown of Philly. Our panelists include; Michelle Noorali, Senior Software Engineer at Microsoft, joining us from Atlanta, Georgia. We have Kelsey Hightower, Principal developer advocate at Google Cloud, joining us from Washington State and we have Chris Aniszczyk, CTO CIO at the CNCF, joining us from Austin, Texas. So I think we have the country pretty well covered. Thank you all for spending time with us on this power panel. Chris, I'm going to start with you, let's dive right in. You've been in the middle of the Docker netease wave since the beginning with a clear focus on building a better world through open collaboration. What are your thoughts on how the Open Source landscape has evolved over the past few years? Where are we in 2020? And where are we headed from both community and a tech perspective? Just curious to get things sized up? >> Sure, when CNCF started about roughly four, over four years ago, the technology mostly focused on just the things around Kubernetes, monitoring communities with technology like Prometheus, and I think in 2020 and the future, we definitely want to move up the stack. So there's a lot of tools being built on the periphery now. So there's a lot of tools that handle running different types of workloads on Kubernetes. So things like Uvert and Shay runs VMs on Kubernetes, which is crazy, not just containers. You have folks that, Microsoft experimenting with a project called Kruslet which is trying to run web assembly workloads natively on Kubernetes. So I think what we've seen now is more and more tools built around the periphery, while the core of Kubernetes has stabilized. So different technologies and spaces such as security and different ways to run different types of workloads. And at least that's kind of what I've seen. >> So do you have a fair amount of vendors as well as end users still submitting in projects in, is there still a pretty high volume? >> Yeah, we have 48 total projects in CNCF right now and Michelle could speak a little bit more to this being on the DOC, the pipeline for new projects is quite extensive and it covers all sorts of spaces from two service meshes to security projects and so on. So it's ever so expanding and filling in gaps in that cloud native landscape that we have. >> Awesome. Michelle, Let's head to you. But before we actually dive in, let's talk a little glory days. A rumor has it that you are the Fifth Grade Kickball Championship team captain. (Michelle laughs) Are the rumors true? >> They are, my speech at the end of the year was the first talk I ever gave. But yeah, it was really fun. I wasn't captain 'cause I wasn't really great at anything else apart from constantly cheer on the team. >> A little better than my eighth grade Spelling Champ Award so I think I'd rather have the kickball. But you've definitely, spent a lot of time leading an Open Source, you've been across many projects for many years. So how does the art and science of collaboration, inclusivity and teamwork vary? 'Cause you're involved in a variety of efforts, both in the CNCF and even outside of that. And then what are some tips for expanding the tent of Open Source projects? >> That's a good question. I think it's about transparency. Just come in and tell people what you really need to do and clearly articulate your problem, more clearly articulate your problem and why you can't solve it with any other solution, the more people are going to understand what you're trying to do and be able to collaborate with you better. What I love about Open Source is that where I've seen it succeed is where incentives of different perspectives and parties align and you're just transparent about what you want. So you can collaborate where it makes sense, even if you compete as a company with another company in the same area. So I really like that, but I just feel like transparency and honesty is what it comes down to and clearly communicating those objectives. >> Yeah, and the various foundations, I think one of the things that I've seen, particularly Apache Software Foundation and others is the notion of checking your badge at the door. Because the competition might be between companies, but in many respects, you have engineers across many companies that are just kicking butt with the tech they contribute, claiming victory in one way or the other might make for interesting marketing drama. But, I think that's a little bit of the challenge. In some of the, standards-based work you're doing I know with CNI and some other things, are they similar, are they different? How would you compare and contrast into something a little more structured like CNCF? >> Yeah, so most of what I do is in the CNCF, but there's specs and there's projects. I think what CNCF does a great job at is just iterating to make it an easier place for developers to collaborate. You can ask the CNCF for basically whatever you need, and they'll try their best to figure out how to make it happen. And we just continue to work on making the processes are clearer and more transparent. And I think in terms of specs and projects, those are such different collaboration environments. Because if you're in a project, you have to say, "Okay, I want this feature or I want this bug fixed." But when you're in a spec environment, you have to think a little outside of the box and like, what framework do you want to work in? You have to think a little farther ahead in terms of is this solution or this decision we're going to make going to last for the next how many years? You have to get more of a buy in from all of the key stakeholders and maintainers. So it's a little bit of a longer process, I think. But what's so beautiful is that you have this really solid, standard or interface that opens up an ecosystem and allows people to build things that you could never have even imagined or dreamed of so-- >> Gotcha. So I'm Kelsey, we'll head over to you as your focus is on, developer advocate, you've been in the cloud native front lines for many years. Today developers are faced with a ton of moving parts, spanning containers, functions, Cloud Service primitives, including container services, server-less platforms, lots more, right? I mean, there's just a ton of choice. How do you help developers maintain a minimalist mantra in the face of such a wealth of choice? I think minimalism I hear you talk about that periodically, I know you're a fan of that. How do you pass that on and your developer advocacy in your day to day work? >> Yeah, I think, for most developers, most of this is not really the top of mind for them, is something you may see a post on Hacker News, and you might double click into it. Maybe someone on your team brought one of these tools in and maybe it leaks up into your workflow so you're forced to think about it. But for most developers, they just really want to continue writing code like they've been doing. And the best of these projects they'll never see. They just work, they get out of the way, they help them with log in, they help them run their application. But for most people, this isn't the core idea of the job for them. For people in operations, on the other hand, maybe these components fill a gap. So they look at a lot of this stuff that you see in the CNCF and Open Source space as number one, various companies or teams sharing the way that they do things, right? So these are ideas that are put into the Open Source, some of them will turn into products, some of them will just stay as projects that had mutual benefit for multiple people. But for the most part, it's like walking through an ion like Home Depot. You pick the tools that you need, you can safely ignore the ones you don't need, and maybe something looks interesting and maybe you study it to see if that if you have a problem. And for most people, if you don't have that problem that that tool solves, you should be happy. No one needs every project and I think that's where the foundation for confusion. So my main job is to help people not get stuck and confused in LAN and just be pragmatic and just use the tools that work for 'em. >> Yeah, and you've spent the last little while in the server-less space really diving into that area, compare and contrast, I guess, what you found there, minimalist approach, who are you speaking to from a server-less perspective versus that of the broader CNCF? >> The thing that really pushed me over, I was teaching my daughter how to make a website. So she's on her Chromebook, making a website, and she's hitting 127.0.0.1, and it looks like geo cities from the 90s but look, she's making website. And she wanted her friends to take a look. So she copied and paste from her browser 127.0.0.1 and none of her friends could pull it up. So this is the point where every parent has to cross that line and say, "Hey, do I really need to sit down "and teach my daughter about Linux "and Docker and Kubernetes." That isn't her main goal, her goal was to just launch her website in a way that someone else can see it. So we got Firebase installed on her laptop, she ran one command, Firebase deploy. And our site was up in a few minutes, and she sent it over to her friend and there you go, she was off and running. The whole server-less movement has that philosophy as one of the stated goal that needs to be the workflow. So, I think server-less is starting to get closer and closer, you start to see us talk about and Chris mentioned this earlier, we're moving up the stack. Where we're going to up the stack, the North Star there is feel where you get the focus on what you're doing, and not necessarily how to do it underneath. And I think server-less is not quite there yet but every type of workload, stateless web apps check, event driven workflows check, but not necessarily for things like machine learning and some other workloads that more traditional enterprises want to run so there's still work to do there. So server-less for me, serves as the North Star for why all these Projects exists for people that may have to roll their own platform, to provide the experience. >> So, Chris, on a related note, with what we were just talking about with Kelsey, what's your perspective on the explosion of the cloud native landscape? There's, a ton of individual projects, each can be used separately, but in many cases, they're like Lego blocks and used together. So things like the surface mesh interface, standardizing interfaces, so things can snap together more easily, I think, are some of the approaches but are you doing anything specifically to encourage this cross fertilization and collaboration of bug ability, because there's just a ton of projects, not only at the CNCF but outside the CNCF that need to plug in? >> Yeah, I mean, a lot of this happens organically. CNCF really provides of the neutral home where companies, competitors, could trust each other to build interesting technology. We don't force integration or collaboration, it happens on its own. We essentially allow the market to decide what a successful project is long term or what an integration is. We have a great Technical Oversight Committee that helps shepherd the overall technical vision for the organization and sometimes steps in and tries to do the right thing when it comes to potentially integrating a project. Previously, we had this issue where there was a project called Open Tracing, and an effort called Open Census, which is basically trying to standardize how you're going to deal with metrics, on the tree and so on in a cloud native world that we're essentially competing with each other. The CNCF TC and committee came together and merged those projects into one parent ever called Open Elementary and so that to me is a case study of how our committee helps, bridges things. But we don't force things, we essentially want our community of end users and vendors to decide which technology is best in the long term, and we'll support that. >> Okay, awesome. And, Michelle, you've been focused on making distributed systems digestible, which to me is about simplifying things. And so back when Docker arrived on the scene, some people referred to it as developer dopamine, which I love that term, because it's simplified a bunch of crufty stuff for developers and actually helped them focus on doing their job, writing code, delivering code, what's happening in the community to help developers wire together multi-part modern apps in a way that's elegant, digestible, feels like a dopamine rush? >> Yeah, one of the goals of the(mumbles) project was to make it easier to deploy an application on Kubernetes so that you could see what the finished product looks like. And then dig into all of the things that that application is composed of, all the resources. So we're really passionate about this kind of stuff for a while now. And I love seeing projects that come into the space that have this same goal and just iterate and make things easier. I think we have a ways to go still, I think a lot of the iOS developers and JS developers I get to talk to don't really care that much about Kubernetes. They just want to, like Kelsey said, just focus on their code. So one of the projects that I really like working with is Tilt gives you this dashboard in your CLI, aggregates all your logs from your applications, And it kind of watches your application changes, and reconfigures those changes in Kubernetes so you can see what's going on, it'll catch errors, anything with a dashboard I love these days. So Yali is like a metrics dashboard that's integrated with STL, a service graph of your service mesh, and lets you see the metrics running there. I love that, I love that dashboard so much. Linkerd has some really good service graph images, too. So anything that helps me as an end user, which I'm not technically an end user, but me as a person who's just trying to get stuff up and running and working, see the state of the world easily and digest them has been really exciting to see. And I'm seeing more and more dashboards come to light and I'm very excited about that. >> Yeah, as part of the DockerCon just as a person who will be attending some of the sessions, I'm really looking forward to see where DockerCompose is going, I know they opened up the spec to broader input. I think your point, the good one, is there's a bit more work to really embrace the wealth of application artifacts that compose a larger application. So there's definitely work the broader community needs to lean in on, I think. >> I'm glad you brought that up, actually. Compose is something that I should have mentioned and I'm glad you bring that up. I want to see programming language libraries, integrate with the Compose spec. I really want to see what happens with that I think is great that they open that up and made that a spec because obviously people really like using Compose. >> Excellent. So Kelsey, I'd be remiss if I didn't touch on your January post on changelog entitled, "Monoliths are the Future." Your post actually really resonated with me. My son works for a software company in Austin, Texas. So your hometown there, Chris. >> Yeah. >> Shout out to Will and the chorus team. His development work focuses on adding modern features via micro services as extensions to the core monolith that the company was founded on. So just share some thoughts on monoliths, micro services. And also, what's deliverance dopamine from your perspective more broadly, but people usually phrase as monoliths versus micro services, but I get the sense you don't believe it's either or. >> Yeah, I think most companies from the pragmatic so one of their argument is one of pragmatism. Most companies have trouble designing any app, monolith, deployable or microservices architecture. And then these things evolve over time. Unless you're really careful, it's really hard to know how to slice these things. So taking an idea or a problem and just knowing how to perfectly compartmentalize it into individual deployable component, that's hard for even the best people to do. And double down knowing the actual solution to the particular problem. A lot of problems people are solving they're solving for the first time. It's really interesting, our industry in general, a lot of people who work in it have never solved the particular problem that they're trying to solve for the first time. So that's interesting. The other part there is that most of these tools that are here to help are really only at the infrastructure layer. We're talking freeways and bridges and toll bridges, but there's nothing that happens in the actual developer space right there in memory. So the libraries that interface to the structure logging, the libraries that deal with rate limiting, the libraries that deal with authorization, can this person make this query with this user ID? A lot of those things are still left for developers to figure out on their own. So while we have things like the brunettes and fluid D, we have all of these tools to deploy apps into those target, most developers still have the problem of everything you do above that line. And to be honest, the majority of the complexity has to be resolved right there in the app. That's the thing that's taking requests directly from the user. And this is where maybe as an industry, we're over-correcting. So we had, you said you come from the JBoss world, I started a lot of my Cisco administration, there's where we focus a little bit more on the actual application needs, maybe from a router that as well. But now what we're seeing is things like Spring Boot, start to offer a little bit more integration points in the application space itself. So I think the biggest parts that are missing now are what are the frameworks people will use for authorization? So you have projects like OPA, Open Policy Agent for those that are new to that, it gives you this very low level framework, but you still have to understand the concepts around, what does it mean to allow someone to do something and one missed configuration, all your security goes out of the window. So I think for most developers this is where the next set of challenges lie, if not actually the original challenge. So for some people, they were able to solve most of these problems with virtualization, run some scripts, virtualize everything and be fine. And monoliths were okay for that. For some reason, we've thrown pragmatism out of the window and some people are saying the only way to solve these problems is by breaking the app into 1000 pieces. Forget the fact that you had trouble managing one piece, you're going to somehow find the ability to manage 1000 pieces with these tools underneath but still not solving the actual developer problems. So this is where you've seen it already with a couple of popular blog posts from other companies. They cut too deep. They're going from 2000, 3000 microservices back to maybe 100 or 200. So to my world, it's going to be not just one monolith, but end up maybe having 10 or 20 monoliths that maybe reflect the organization that you have versus the architectural pattern that you're at. >> I view it as like a constellation of stars and planets, et cetera. Where you you might have a star that has a variety of, which is a monolith, and you have a variety of sort of planetary microservices that float around it. But that's reality, that's the reality of modern applications, particularly if you're not starting from a clean slate. I mean your points, a good one is, in many respects, I think the infrastructure is code movement has helped automate a bit of the deployment of the platform. I've been personally focused on app development JBoss as well as springsSource. The Spring team I know that tech pretty well over the years 'cause I was involved with that. So I find that James Governor's discussion of progressive delivery really resonates with me, as a developer, not so much as an infrastructure Deployer. So continuous delivery is more of infrastructure notice notion, progressive delivery, feature flags, those types of things, or app level, concepts, minimizing the blast radius of your, the new features you're deploying, that type of stuff, I think begins to speak to the pain of application delivery. So I'll guess I'll put this up. Michelle, I might aim it to you, and then we'll go around the horn, what are your thoughts on the progressive delivery area? How could that potentially begin to impact cloud native over 2020? I'm looking for some rallying cries that move up the stack and give a set of best practices, if you will. And I think James Governor of RedMonk opened on something that's pretty important. >> Yeah, I think it's all about automating all that stuff that you don't really know about. Like Flagger is an awesome progressive delivery tool, you can just deploy something, and people have been asking for so many years, ever since I've been in this space, it's like, "How do I do AB deployment?" "How do I do Canary?" "How do I execute these different deployment strategies?" And Flagger is a really good example, for example, it's a really good way to execute these deployment strategies but then, make sure that everything's happening correctly via observing metrics, rollback if you need to, so you don't just throw your whole system. I think it solves the problem and allows you to take risks but also keeps you safe in that you can be confident as you roll out your changes that it all works, it's metrics driven. So I'm just really looking forward to seeing more tools like that. And dashboards, enable that kind of functionality. >> Chris, what are your thoughts in that progressive delivery area? >> I mean, CNCF alone has a lot of projects in that space, things like Argo that are tackling it. But I want to go back a little bit to your point around developer dopamine, as someone that probably spent about a decade of his career focused on developer tooling and in fact, if you remember the Eclipse IDE and that whole integrated experience, I was blown away recently by a demo from GitHub. They have something called code spaces, which a long time ago, I was trying to build development environments that essentially if you were an engineer that joined a team recently, you could basically get an environment quickly start it with everything configured, source code checked out, environment properly set up. And that was a very hard problem. This was like before container days and so on and to see something like code spaces where you'd go to a repo or project, open it up, behind the scenes they have a container that is set up for the environment that you need to build and just have a VS code ID integrated experience, to me is completely magical. It hits like developer dopamine immediately for me, 'cause a lot of problems when you're going to work with a project attribute, that whole initial bootstrap of, "Oh you need to make sure you have this library, this install," it's so incredibly painful on top of just setting up your developer environment. So as we continue to move up the stack, I think you're going to see an incredible amount of improvements around the developer tooling and developer experience that people have powered by a lot of this cloud native technology behind the scenes that people may not know about. >> Yeah, 'cause I've been talking with the team over at Docker, the work they're doing with that desktop, enable the aim local environment, make sure it matches as closely as possible as your deployed environments that you might be targeting. These are some of the pains, that I see. It's hard for developers to get bootstrapped up, it might take him a day or two to actually just set up their local laptop and development environment, and particularly if they change teams. So that complexity really corralling that down and not necessarily being overly prescriptive as to what tool you use. So if you're visual code, great, it should feel integrated into that environment, use a different environment or if you feel more comfortable at the command line, you should be able to opt into that. That's some of the stuff I get excited to potentially see over 2020 as things progress up the stack, as you said. So, Michelle, just from an innovation train perspective, and we've covered a little bit, what's the best way for people to get started? I think Kelsey covered a little bit of that, being very pragmatic, but all this innovation is pretty intimidating, you can get mowed over by the train, so to speak. So what's your advice for how people get started, how they get involved, et cetera. >> Yeah, it really depends on what you're looking for and what you want to learn. So, if you're someone who's new to the space, honestly, check out the case studies on cncf.io, those are incredible. You might find environments that are similar to your organization's environments, and read about what worked for them, how they set things up, any hiccups they crossed. It'll give you a broad overview of the challenges that people are trying to solve with the technology in this space. And you can use that drill into the areas that you want to learn more about, just depending on where you're coming from. I find myself watching old KubeCon talks on the cloud native computing foundations YouTube channel, so they have like playlists for all of the conferences and the special interest groups in CNCF. And I really enjoy talking, I really enjoy watching excuse me, older talks, just because they explain why things were done, the way they were done, and that helps me build the tools I built. And if you're looking to get involved, if you're building projects or tools or specs and want to contribute, we have special interest groups in the CNCF. So you can find that in the CNCF Technical Oversight Committee, TOC GitHub repo. And so for that, if you want to get involved there, choose a vertical. Do you want to learn about observability? Do you want to drill into networking? Do you care about how to deliver your app? So we have a cig called app delivery, there's a cig for each major vertical, and you can go there to see what is happening on the edge. Really, these are conversations about, okay, what's working, what's not working and what are the next changes we want to see in the next months. So if you want that kind of granularity and discussion on what's happening like that, then definitely join those those meetings. Check out those meeting notes and recordings. >> Gotcha. So on Kelsey, as you look at 2020 and beyond, I know, you've been really involved in some of the earlier emerging tech spaces, what gets you excited when you look forward? What gets your own level of dopamine up versus the broader community? What do you see coming that we should start thinking about now? >> I don't think any of the raw technology pieces get me super excited anymore. Like, I've seen the circle of around three or four times, in five years, there's going to be a new thing, there might be a new foundation, there'll be a new set of conferences, and we'll all rally up and probably do this again. So what's interesting now is what people are actually using the technology for. Some people are launching new things that maybe weren't possible because infrastructure costs were too high. People able to jump into new business segments. You start to see these channels on YouTube where everyone can buy a mic and a B app and have their own podcasts and be broadcast to the globe, just for a few bucks, if not for free. Those revolutionary things are the big deal and they're hard to come by. So I think we've done a good job democratizing these ideas, distributed systems, one company got really good at packaging applications to share with each other, I think that's great, and never going to reset again. And now what's going to be interesting is, what will people build with this stuff? If we end up building the same things we were building before, and then we're talking about another digital transformation 10 years from now because it's going to be funny but Kubernetes will be the new legacy. It's going to be the things that, "Oh, man, I got stuck in this Kubernetes thing," and there'll be some governor on TV, looking for old school Kubernetes engineers to migrate them to some new thing, that's going to happen. You got to know that. So at some point merry go round will stop. And we're going to be focused on what you do with this. So the internet is there, most people have no idea of the complexities of underwater sea cables. It's beyond one or two people, or even one or two companies to comprehend. You're at the point now, where most people that jump on the internet are talking about what you do with the internet. You can have Netflix, you can do meetings like this one, it's about what you do with it. So that's going to be interesting. And we're just not there yet with tech, tech is so, infrastructure stuff. We're so in the weeds, that most people almost burn out what's just getting to the point where you can start to look at what you do with this stuff. So that's what I keep in my eye on, is when do we get to the point when people just ship things and build things? And I think the closest I've seen so far is in the mobile space. If you're iOS developer, Android developer, you use the SDK that they gave you, every year there's some new device that enables some new things speech to text, VR, AR and you import an STK, and it just worked. And you can put it in one place and 100 million people can download it at the same time with no DevOps team, that's amazing. When can we do that for server side applications? That's going to be something I'm going to find really innovative. >> Excellent. Yeah, I mean, I could definitely relate. I was Hortonworks in 2011, so, Hadoop, in many respects, was sort of the precursor to the Kubernetes area, in that it was, as I like to refer to, it was a bunch of animals in the zoo, wasn't just the yellow elephant. And when things mature beyond it's basically talking about what kind of analytics are driving, what type of machine learning algorithms and applications are they delivering? You know that's when things tip over into a real solution space. So I definitely see that. I think the other cool thing even just outside of the container and container space, is there's just such a wealth of data related services. And I think how those two worlds come together, you brought up the fact that, in many respects, server-less is great, it's stateless, but there's just a ton of stateful patterns out there that I think also need to be addressed as these richer applications to be from a data processing and actionable insights perspective. >> I also want to be clear on one thing. So some people confuse two things here, what Michelle said earlier about, for the first time, a whole group of people get to learn about distributed systems and things that were reserved to white papers, PhDs, CF site, this stuff is now super accessible. You go to the CNCF site, all the things that you read about or we used to read about, you can actually download, see how it's implemented and actually change how it work. That is something we should never say is a waste of time. Learning is always good because someone has to build these type of systems and whether they sell it under the guise of server-less or not, this will always be important. Now the other side of this is, that there are people who are not looking to learn that stuff, the majority of the world isn't looking. And in parallel, we should also make this accessible, which should enable people that don't need to learn all of that before they can be productive. So that's two sides of the argument that can be true at the same time, a lot of people get caught up. And everything should just be server-less and everyone learning about distributed systems, and contributing and collaborating is wasting time. We can't have a world where there's only one or two companies providing all infrastructure for everyone else, and then it's a black box. We don't need that. So we need to do both of these things in parallel so I just want to make sure I'm clear that it's not one of these or the other. >> Yeah, makes sense, makes sense. So we'll just hit the final topic. Chris, I think I'll ask you to help close this out. COVID-19 clearly has changed how people work and collaborate. I figured we'd end on how do you see, so DockerCon is going to virtual events, inherently the Open Source community is distributed and is used to not face to face collaboration. But there's a lot of value that comes together by assembling a tent where people can meet, what's the best way? How do you see things playing out? What's the best way for this to evolve in the face of the new normal? >> I think in the short term, you're definitely going to see a lot of virtual events cropping up all over the place. Different themes, verticals, I've already attended a handful of virtual events the last few weeks from Red Hat summit to Open Compute summit to Cloud Native summit, you'll see more and more of these. I think, in the long term, once the world either get past COVID or there's a vaccine or something, I think the innate nature for people to want to get together and meet face to face and deal with all the serendipitous activities you would see in a conference will come back, but I think virtual events will augment these things in the short term. One benefit we've seen, like you mentioned before, DockerCon, can have 50,000 people at it. I don't remember what the last physical DockerCon had but that's definitely an order of magnitude more. So being able to do these virtual events to augment potential of physical events in the future so you can build a more inclusive community so people who cannot travel to your event or weren't lucky enough to win a scholarship could still somehow interact during the course of event to me is awesome and I hope something that we take away when we start all doing these virtual events when we get back to physical events, we find a way to ensure that these things are inclusive for everyone and not just folks that can physically make it there. So those are my thoughts on on the topic. And I wish you the best of luck planning of DockerCon and so on. So I'm excited to see how it turns out. 50,000 is a lot of people and that just terrifies me from a cloud native coupon point of view, because we'll probably be somewhere. >> Yeah, get ready. Excellent, all right. So that is a wrap on the DockerCon 2020 Open Source Power Panel. I think we covered a ton of ground. I'd like to thank Chris, Kelsey and Michelle, for sharing their perspectives on this continuing wave of Docker and cloud native innovation. I'd like to thank the DockerCon attendees for tuning in. And I hope everybody enjoys the rest of the conference. (upbeat music)

live from New York it's the cube covering riverbed disrupt watch you buy riverbed now here are your hosts day volante and Stu minimus welcome back to the Big Apple everybody this is riverbed disrupts we've got a special guest Steve de plusieurs with us the man behind many men and women at enterprise strategy group founder head chief chief analyst senior analyst Steve's great to see you thanks for coming off thanks for having me I appreciate it I'm you doing fellas it was good we were photobombing video bombing us today and here you are that was not intentional I didn't know the exact configuration in the camera almost always live it's all right and that ended up now you're in front of the camera how the right time this is not a bomb so what's doing these days what's what's happening on that's a ridiculous question citing you ah somewhat less ridiculous and still very open to interpretation I give me a path to head down and we can't I let's start with the with Delhi MC you've got a great blog on that you know the history was good really enjoyed that it's EMC success is because you left right so I'm not exactly sure it's a 50-50 between my crackers coming in and making everything that we sold actually work because not much really good I gotta say a lot of people are really positive people who know both dell and emc are actually really positive about the the marriage here but we nuts i don't think so i think from day one I saw I'll give you a quick anecdote hopefully quick tell me to shut up if not here's the parallel in two thousand Joe Tucci comes in and at that particular run emc and at that particular time EMC was really good about bringing in some outsider and spitting them out the DNA and the antibodies were just awful in that culture in that for an outsider to come in and be able to survive in there and they went through a bunch of senior managers senior executive vice-presidents yada yada yada that nobody lasted and 2g came in and I'd never met the man or and he had no business to have any idea who I was for example and for whatever reason I was able to get an audience with him very early on and I sat down with him and the first question I asked him only question I asked him and I wasn't looking nice like you I was disrespectful and he could conceive of me as disrespectful and I said what are you going to do about mo Shay because at the time as many of us that are old enough to know mo Shay was king of the of the hill over there he owns symmetrix and and he was untouchable Harry Dixon and Mo Shay were the two untouchable human beings within that emc culture and Joe looked me right in the eye and didn't skip a beat at all and said he's either going to play nice in the sandbox or he's gone and it wasn't six weeks later that ostensibly he was gone and I couldn't believe and so I knew right that in there I knew without knowing the man that this guy was a little bit different and everybody within the EMC antibody sort of climate said nope he's not gonna last six months he's not going to last and but I you know you look somebody in the eye and you see that and so I saw a lot of the similarities in this deal so you guys have been around forever I've been around forever you know Michael Michaels a straight-shooting guy Michael's doesn't have a go or vanity pretense or he doesn't do things for the wrong reasons he said something very very interesting to me about a year before the MC deal which was or a couple years before when he was talking about I think it was three power at the time when he's in the bidding war with Dave Donatelli at HP / 3 part and I don't remember the exact context of the comment but he talked about Dell spending money and he said you know I treat it like it's my own money because it is because it is it whereas he what he was alluding to as others are spending stockholders money and it's not really it and but so that was just a sort of an interesting look into into into the guy there so when this deal happened these are not to strangers right they've been together they've been married and divorced if you will and have had a relationship for a long time they know each other and so when it sort of happened you like oh boy you know and you on paper you can see the synergies and a lot of people i think i'm certainly not unique everybody saw the synergies is not a lot of overlap really what you worry about in a deal like that is cultural other other chiefs of the generals going to be able to get along or are they going to beat the hell out of each other and backstab and and do what happens in every one of these deals it seems like and they didn't write though they really didn't interesting that you know thou MCS a private company kind of a bummer for those who live in Massachusetts good but I kind of a there's a good days that a bummer why is that a bummer well because CMC the brand emc is gonna be gone right just like the walk go up with your private yeah crime and wagon oh let's hope that doesn't happen well we'll see we'll see it's dell technologies it's there's already Delia me logos up on the building from that standpoint it's okay you're right about it too it's hard not sure after yeah of course ok but this backdrop of companies going private obviously riverbed now click BMC many many many other space this new private equity game plan veritas right exactly right used to be private equity put it in some financial guy suck all the money out sure the carcass for yeah whatever's left and now they're saying why should the VCS have all the fun I mean riverbed got taken out for 13.6 billion think at some point to an IPO they're gonna be 10 billion plus a year from now J right I mean eight ten billion maybe I probably 70th I mean that's a nice return as a nitrile Michael Dell returns so I think that you bring up a very fascinating point that I think is gonna happen more often than less and the at the I'm not that smart but fundamentally having that microscope and that's spotlight on you in 90 day increments dealing with no disrespect 26 year old MBAs that have never had a real job that their only interest is squeezing that any per share regardless of what the human impact or what the long-term impact of a company is is the wrong way to do business it's it's our way it's our system but it's the wrong fundamental way to do business you your dad's probably told you just like I did no no you you you spend less than you make it's right if we're not the government we can't print our own money you spend less than you make and and you you honor your debts and all these other things i think the privatization aspect and all of this stuff is just going to keep going because these companies are good companies and they you take the handcuffs on them they don't care what Wall Street thinks for a certain period of time years certain period of time and when they're ready to come back exactly right they go from three billion dollars to ten billion dollars because they were able to do the right things not because they only cared about squeezing the coffee budget to make another you know point ten cents a share yeah Steve so you know market shares in competition and enterprise tech you know seemed for a long time you know nothing change storage industry was very entrenched you know we've seen market share shifting a lot i'll bring it back to you know where to show called disrupt here you know there's been a leader in the networking world for most of my career here um why are you know enterprises you know open to you no more change they're doing cloud there you know looking at some of the things like riverbeds talking about it's a great question so at first i would say they're not they're not open to it nobody and there are two fundamental reasons one is i hate to say it but human beings are lazy I'm one of them the devil I know is easier than the devil I don't yeah most people don't like change no to do not like change whatsoever so the really reason that anybody changes any of this stuff is because one they have to it just doesn't work anymore nobody buys something that's better because it's better they buy it because they have to buy it yeah why'd you buy that Tesla yeah what well that's a terrible example I'm an idiot and I just bought it because it was way better all right sorry now but where we are at some inflection points right now so it doesn't matter why the change occurred right so I could still I think maybe a different answer is I could buy a horse but it's still a valid mode of transportation it just makes me a complete ass if if I do right but it's technically a valid mode of transportation so we I can still go on do that path I people get into a habit of over a course of years and sometimes decades this is just the way we did it this is the way we do it its way I was trained this is way I will train the next guy I'm gonna walk in in the morning and smash myself on the hand with a hammer in the head every day why I don't know it doesn't feel good why do you keep doing it because that's the way we do it type of stuff so it change tends to be some you need some macro external function to force a change VMware had ESX for 10 years before they became VMware as we know them in 10 years why did that happen because it was a nice to have it was the smarter thing to do it only happened when the data center ran out of power and cooling when I couldn't physically fit any more stuff in there and I still had to do a job that's when people went well those guys in the corner are running this cool stuff that emulates pretty much any environment you want to you doing them people at oh oh that's interesting and now you're an idiot if you don't run vmware just as an example right and so I think that it's the same sort of thing we get hub-and-spoke spine and leaf yatta yatta yatta whatever the networking terminology is that we had to do that had a place and and in time but you would never probably architect something like that today if you started from a clean piece of paper and I'm not picking on just Cisco I'd take the longer you're going to keep giving me a buck I'm gonna take your buck right it's because they do answer to shareholders so they're sort of at a catchment they could they could and they will eventually react to the market that says stop doing it that way because it's the wrong way to do HP HP e oh how about a go in the opposite direction of del super interesting well they will will will Dells ability to sell through EMC change the dynamic in the server market well they surpass HP ok so my personal bet if I had to bet right now I would say yes the answer is yes and here's the reason why you could you had three sort of mega companies in in what really to HP and IBM and then you had dell as the it sounds stupid to say but of the wannabe to those guys intel's grown up and now they're on equal playing field but so h IBM took one path IBM said I'm kind of getting it out of the infrastructure business and I'm gonna get into the third platform all in the higher value or what I presume to be eventually higher value plays there but there's no value in commodity hardware etc etc analytics baby yeah you got it whatever automotive yeah and ok let's very good for them and I made a lot of big bets right eight feet went exactly the other way let's just strictly you know we might have paid 10 billion for autonomy but we're gonna sell our 30 billion dollars and in software assets for less money because it is distractive and they so they split the two companies into printers assess your losses and go and don't get me wrong but those are Burger King makes money right Burger King makes money they follow McDonald's around and I'm this is not a good analogy but the only one I can kind of think of on the top of my head being number two and profitable is not a bad business and so as such they don't have to support each feed is enough to support a full stack of all of this other stuff that's really complicated and hard and really big company things so they're divesting themselves of it so makes essentially being her own PE firm she's stripping it before somebody else strips it and taking what she can get in the coffers and in a sufficient yeah starting it again what about riverbed give you a book give us your bumper sticker and then we get a rep all right so they I am I I'm probably the wrong person to ask and for the following reasons number one am not deep enough but number two is I love these guys since literally their inception and i will tell a quick story in that sense i was meeting their primary venture capitalist at the time a guy named chris chevy from light speed and i went to that that greek place in palo alto that I can never member the name of and I was meeting he he called me on the way over he said hey I'm running a little late with a guy do you mind if somebody joins us I said no and it was Jerry and in so I walk in and I'm this kid and there's Jerry and his jeans and doesn't care about anything type of thing oh great so what do you do he said oh well crank chris said why we just funded seed funded him my gosh all this terrific what's what's the company doing I swear to god he went not exactly sure yet thinking about a networking thing you know some paraphrasing Dudley they gave him money and he didn't know what they were gonna do and I was like oh my god what a great bet that worked out of any of your people really really well so I love riverbed I've loved them ever since I love Jerry is not only a character in a human being but it's a great company that is done you know again taking on Goliath really hard to take on Goliath and Cisco's about its Goliath as they come and these guys have just kicked by well you've taken on Goliath in a pretty entrenched business so I said last question last question what's new with ESG you guys are rocking you got a bunch of people working for you and just keep growing and love to see it new areas hit the security or to virtually you know every part of IT your customers love you what's what's new with you guys I'm my current personal passion and we're we're driving more I think interesting stuff the normal is insecurity because it is the wild wild west so I'm a storage guy I'm boring box kind of guy i understood that stuff 25 years ago securities fascinating to me because it is the storage business kind of 25 years ago only an order of magnitude if not bigger so there are 1500 companies not 150 trying to wannabes and and there's zero clear winners in any of these senses they riverbed brought up Palo Alto today great company but there are hundreds of different vectors that are all sort of attempting in one way or another to do the same thing but it's a it's a horse race where all the horses are running in different directions looks like a Monty Python look kind of scared two ready go hmm everywhere and so I I personally find that intriguing and fascinating also because the bigger they are the harder they fall so we'll go from 1,500 to 150 and we'll go from almost a trillion invested too oh boy a lot of people are going to lose a lot of money but from that certainly some players are going to rise tremendously and the other thing I'd really find interesting is this is we're no longer in the era of the boring box we really aren't and I and that's good for everybody in i.t except people that really love the boring box and so there's always hard a school of hard knocks right people are going to lose jobs and and it's unfortunate that respect and they'll come clinging to that Titanic but at the end of the day what's on the other side is crazy stuff you know it's great that the iphone we forget is it's seven years old or something it's eight years old we act like it's a you know we've had it forever but no no I had a bag phone when i was with the MC and i thought it was really cool at a thousand dollars a minute to be calling my friend who had a bag phone cuz you couldn't call anybody else cuz no one else at a bank what wasn't that long ago so anyway them all right well big buddy could be interesting to see picking winners in the security space but some gradual ations on all your success okay thank you very much for coming to the cubes great time guys thank you so much all right keep right to everybody will be back to wrap riverbed disrupt right after this