(upbeat music) >> From the SiliconANGLE media office, in Boston Massachusetts, it's theCUBE. (upbeat music) Now, here's your host, Dave Vellante. >> Hi everybody, welcome to this cube conversation. This is part of our CIO series and Jason Thomas is here, he's the CIO of Cole, Scott, and Kissane. CSK is Florida's largest civil defense law firm. Cube along Jason Thomas, great to see you again, thanks for coming on. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. >> So, let's talk a little bit about, the firm. largest firm in Florida, the focus is on Civil Defense, so you got lawyers, you got paralegals running around, you got demanding clients. What's the business like that's driving your technology strategy? >> so when I I'm new to legal, so this, I've been here about almost four years now, so I started January. a whole different world. I came from, from Startup Biotech, that line of business and a completely different animal. it's some of what you imagine, very always on the go, very busy, lot of business, we open dozens of cases a day, new cases, so a lot of things going on. >> Really event driven? >> Yeah very, very busy, so and you know technology's, you know the firm has taken stance that, technology is very important, to the firm and, we want to use the best technology possible, to make us as efficient as possible, so that's the chief driver, for tech at the law firm. >> So tech, you know, 15 years ago, whatever it was like, take an email to SaaS, right? So, but I would imagine you're focusing a lot on just attorney and employee productivity, maybe collaboration, document management, compliance. Are those some of the hot topics? And how are you applying technology to deal with those? >> Yep, so that is a big drive, efficiency, using technology to be efficient, and to make our folks productive. What we don't want to see, and that you see sometimes, you throw a whole bunch of technology at folks thinking that it's going to make them efficient and productive, and actually, it could be the greatest technology in the world for one place, and apply it, and you put it in another firm, and it makes us unproductive, so that's kind of the magic there. Kind of a trick to figuring out, what is it that actually is going to make us productive? >> Are there pretty clear swim lanes in your firm? Or is there a lot of shadow IT going on? Because I would imagine a lot of the frustration of, you know, IT folks is, you get the shadow IT, they bring in a point product, and that IT goes, "CIO's calling clean up this crime scene," and is that a problem in your firm specifically? Or even your industry? Or is it pretty much hey, let the tech folks figure out what the right tool for the job is? >> so in my mind the trick here is, it's not going to be any one person, or any practice group that's going to define what's the best option, what's the best tech. I mean thankfully for me, I do try and drive most of the tech out the firm, but the key is, you have to understand how the business runs. Just because it's cool tech, or it's working at one firm, doesn't mean it's going to apply or work in others. So, I spent a lot of time, in conversations with, a lot of the partners and associates. I try to make myself available as much, just to chat, see what they're doing. see what could make them more efficient. Sometimes if you don't ask, they don't even tell you, but if you ask the question, you can learn a lot in 20 minutes from somebody. And that kind of helps me decide, okay, what is going to make sense, or what's the next thing I should be looking at, to help folks out. >> So basically, Columbo questions, for those of you who remember Columbo, kind of ask your basic questions? What about work flow, how do you spend your time? What kinds of questions would you ask attorneys? >> honestly they could be calling about something completely unrelated to what, you know, what I'm thinking. It just could be as simple as, "Hey I'm this thing with this program where I'm trying to do X and this is the way we're doing now. Is there a better way to do it?" Or, it could be as simple as, we just kind of fall into the conversation based on other things. You know. They just want to talk to somebody sometimes. But they're not necessarily going to bring it up, or just don't have the time, they don't have the time. >> So a lot of times in theCUBE we get caught up, We love the tech, we talk about data science, and machine learning, and block chains and everything else, but then there's this basic blocking and tackling, that the CIO has to worry about. I wondered if you could share your perspectives based on your experience, just in terms of, some of the advice you might give to, organizations that are maybe growing, maybe haven't had the experience of a CIO that's been around the block, maybe in different industries? But some of the basic blocking and tackling that you see, that maybe doesn't happen in organizations, that really needs to happen. >> the expectation, or when you're thinking about, thinking about what the next thing is for the firm, or for your company, you also want to kind of think, you want to think long term as well. You want to think three to five years out. So, if we do this now and based on our current, growth projections, will this work for us in three years? Will this work for us in five years? Or what's our game plan? Maybe we start small, and, expand from there, but you don't want to just plan for the immediate you want to plan for the future. That's kind of, I think that's what CIO should be doing. It's not just about the tech, or is it going to work in our environment, but is it going to work for us down the road. Because we don't want, nobody, CFOs don't want to hear, and CEOs don't want to hear that, hey, yeah we just bought this thing last year, but, yeah we're going to have to buy something new now because it doesn't work anymore. >> But it does happen sometimes? >> It happens all the time, you know. >> Right, I remember, it goes a ways back now, but the federal rules of civil procedure, I think it was 2006, and everybody was rushing to plug holes because the courts ruled that electronic material was evidentiary, for whatever, seven years or something. So everybody was like okay, we need to have a system that allows us to comply. So, they went out and bought email archiving systems, which they knew they were going to have to throw away in three or four year. So how do you deal with it? Do you face that? Especially in a compliance oriented world, and you just try to sort of balance the cost and the throw away nature of that initiative with something more strategic? How do you deal with that? And how do you communicate that to the powers that be? >> Number one, no one likes to be held at gunpoint, number one, and especially my boss, so. I mean he gets it right, I mean there's regulations. But I will say, nothing happens as fast as everyone says it's going to happen. so there's always that idea. There's always this panic, oh we've got to put this in, and honestly I feel like tech folks use an excuse, and of course I do too. Say like, oh you all this is awesome. You know, we get to put something new in and, you know no one's going to say no and, it's not always the best approach, and again you kind of have to look at it long term, holistically for the business. You know, what is really going to happen in a few years? Is this technology going to even be a thing in a few years? Or is it just like, just to satisfy an immediate solution? Because again, I don't want, the last thing I hate doing is putting something in and telling my boss that it has to be replaced. He hates hearing that, and I don't want to tell him that either, quite frankly it's embarrassing. >> I don't blame your boss. >> Yeah it's embarrassing, it's just, let's do it right the first time. >> How do you do planning? I mean obviously there's a technology component, of planning, but I'm inferring from what you say that the end of technology is kind of the, the last thing you should be worrying about. You should be worried about the direction of the firm, the business, the growth plan, how do you do, as CIO, planning and how do you align that with the business? >> conversations, so lots of conversations. Lots of conversations with the attorneys. continued conversations with my boss, the CEO, and sometimes I'm not really great about it sometimes. And, you know, weeks will go by, you know, and I won't even have a conversation with him, about what's going on, and he wants to know what's going on. He doesn't understand all of it, but in those, you know, 15, 20 minute conversations, you'll be surprised what you'll learn. What's going on in the business that you didn't, or I didn't know about, and from there I can make decisions about, you know, six months from now, or next year, or during budgeting season, what it is that we need because, budgeting season is not really the time that you need to try and figure out what you want to do for next year. You want to have a plan months before that. You know, You already want to have kind of an idea of what you want to do, I mean, I've been talking to my CFO since, the beginning of summer about things we want to do for 2020. you know, six months, nine months, ahead of time, so. >> So, do you do basically annual planning? Do you try to look out further? Do you formally document that stuff? >> Every quarter, so we have, we kind of have most of the conversations with our, with my CFO and COO. every quarter we have kind of a list of projects/ what is it we want to do for the next couple quarters. We just kind of, track that and based on what we're seeing and how we do, then we, basically we plan each quarter, is how it comes down to. And we have a, we'll call it a white board, a virtual white board of what we're doing and what we want to do. >> But relatively near the midterm planning, you know doing like five year plannings though right? >> No. >> Waste of time to try to do that, or? At least in your business, maybe in pharmaceuticals? >> At least for us it was really, it's hard for us, to do that because of how quickly we grew over the last, again I've only been here almost four years, but even when I started, in 2015, I think we had somewhere around 300 plus attorneys. Now we're somewhere in the 475 range, I'm not saying no one saw that happening, but I don't think we expected that. I mean business has been great and we're happy, and we're fortunate to have it, but you can only plan so much. but do the best you can with the data you have. >> And for organization structure, you report to the CFO, is that correct? >> CEO. >> CEO? Okay so the, so you're a peer essentially of the CFO, is that right? >> Yeah. >> So you talk to the CFO about budgeting? >> Yeah. >> So you've got the CEO's >> More of the nitty gritty you know the details and numbers. >> What's that conversation like? Is it obviously you've got to justify, show a business case, or is it more sort of hate space? >> So here's the good news. I got lucky again. the CFO is very technology forward and so he understands that it drives a lot of efficiencies within the firm. So he gets it but he's been in the history long enough to get it and knows that we can, again he's efficiency a lot, but there's just a lot of efficiencies, and a lot of inefficiencies seen in a lot of what folks do in law firms that no one takes the time to sit down and say okay why do you do it like this? there's got to be a better way. Well this is the way I just do it, and so, we've been able to kind of adjust a lot of those work flows, or change those work flows to make it more cost effective for the business. Like even things simple as, just manage print service, you know, do we store 100 toners in the back somewhere and then wait for someone to, say that they're out of toners? That's not very efficient. and it's very expensive actually, so you put in a much more efficient process in place for toners. Because we're a paperless firm, but you know, I mean we still have to print, so. >> So, the joke about the paperless office was something like paperless bathroom. So, the other way around, I want to ask you about security. Are you the defacto Chief Information Security Officer, or do you have a CISO, or? >> I do not have a CISO that is me, so that'll be me. >> So, that is you. Alright so let's talk security. So, what is the state of security and as you see it? it's constantly evolving. Security practitioners tell us that they got so many tools, they got, they might have a SEC ops team, you may or may not, it may be something embedded in your team, but they've got to respond, they've got to respond, sometimes it's hard to figure out what they should respond to, prioritization, the data, keeping up with the bad guys, all that stuff. What's your state of security? >> so I think these days, it's not really, it's not really about having the best firewall, or the best, outside protection, so I think a lot of the attacks that are happening now, not that they don't happen form the outside, but a lot of it is a lot of social engineering, and a lot of everything. They're taking advantage of the the ignorance of the users, for lack of a better way to say it, so a lot of it's coming in through email, malicious links, and they're taking advantage of the inside, and bad practices, and bad policies, and/or lack of So, I think based on what we see in the news now, and what you read about, it seems like there's a breech every week somewhere. And when it comes down to it you find out that X company didn't, didn't use a strong hashing. For assaulting, on the hashes for their passwords. Like simple simple, just basic basic stuff. It's not like some massive operation like you see in a movie where you know, they're making this big plan to break in a building and it pans out and they're sneaking in you know, from the ceiling and all that kind of stuff. They're just basic stuff, they're just passwords. How can passwords, reused passwords, just databases of passwords everywhere, out in the dark where you can just buy, and they're just utilizing simple stuff like that. It's not even complicated anymore, it's just, it's a lot of social engineering. >> Often times I say that bad user behavior trumps good security every time, I wanted to ask you about the state of the self security in the industry. So you are reinforced, we were there, and Steven Schmidt stood up and he said, "Look at this narrative from the vendor community that says security is broken, isn't productive. It hurts the industry at the same time." I was at VM world recently a couple months ago, last month actually, Pat Kelsinger basically stood up and said security is broken and we're here to fix it, they bought, you know made a big acquisition of carbon black a local company, so you have these two different, you know, polarizing opinions, I don't necessarily feel like the state of security is great. I look back every year I say do I feel more secure or not, you know remember art cove yellow, every year RSA would write his letter. but what are your thoughts on that? Are you basically saying hey, it's, a lot of times it's user behavior, it's things that maybe, you know it's education, is security a do over? I guess is my question. >> A do over in the sense that I think it just comes out to basic education. I have, you'd be, we're in tech and we understand security and we have all these grand ideas and technologies and vendors and software that we use to do different things on all these fancy dashboards. But, if you ask the basic person off the street about, I think I saw a skit on Twitter the other day and you know there was this guy going around asking them, asking people, you know, what's your Facebook password, or you know how complex is it and they'll just give them their passwords and stuff you know, and I mean there's just a lack of basic education, so all us security buffs walk around, and they don't understand what we're talking about, but they don't need to understand what we're talking about. We just need to be able to look, to just have a basic security awareness and training with folks. I have a friend who works in industry, or in a nonprofit that does, that helps folks who've been you know kind of, harassed or abused online. And she's saying, she's telling me, she's like, "Look you guys are great you're really smart, but these folks, they don't know the basic stuff like hey you know someone keeps logging into my internet, and I keep seeing someone, you know, these weird things in my yard, like cameras in my yard and, can I do this with my phone, and oh well I can't use, like, my dogs name for my Facebook password? Like this is just basic stuff that nobody knows. It's not because they're stupid it's just, they just don't know." And so, like we're up here, and your average everyday person is just on this level. >> How about ransom ware? Obviously a hot topic in the business. what should people be, what should they know and what should they be doing? >> at a basic level security ware is training, it's very simple to do, there's a lot of, no that I'm, pushing products there's plenty of products out there. Secure great ones that kind of help your user, or teach them what not to do, or what to look for. we run a fishing campaign in our firm every once in a while and at this point no one clicks on anything without asking. I mean I get direct emails and I say hey, how's this look? Does it look like I should click it or, you know, does it look legit, I mean it's great. They ask now, they know not to do it. Whereas, I mean that's how they get you. That's how they get most of these places. Especially from we get a lot of, we constantly hear about small firms or smaller clients/companies getting hacked, we constantly get emails from them all the time. They'll get hacked and then we'll get the the emails with the links or whatever. that's one on the user side. On the IT side, we just really need to take it back to the basics, let's make sure we have, backups, and a backup policy, and a data protection policy, and an instant response plan. Let's have a plan here, let's not react when something happens, let's just have a plan. Honestly at our firm, we do have backups, we have layered strategy, but there's just some basic things that we don't do, like you know, IT folks, we don't, we don't keep things on our desktop. Let's start with us, you know we're supposed to be the leadership, in this regard, so let's not keep stuff on our desk let's keep stuff on the network. Let's keep it protected. Make sure it's part of the backup schedule. things like that, I think you just start there, because I was you know, I was just reading about, there's an article that came out yesterday, I think it was Washington Post, and it was talking about the ransomer incident in Baltimore a few months ago. They're just now finding out that the, even the IT folks had stuff on their local computers that couldn't be recovered, important documentation. So, this is just data protection 101. You know, we've got to take it back to the basics, take it back. >> Last question, is just kind of your career, so you mentioned before, you were in, I think you said health care, or? >> Yeah so I worked with MSP, so I worked with a lot of start ups. >> So, how'd you get here how'd you become a CIO? People out there may be, you know people in tech, they aspire perhaps to stay in tech, but they want maybe more of a management role. What was your path, and what kind of advice would you give them? >> what I would say is, so it worked out where, I was I was a lead at the company I was at here in Mass at the time, and so long story short my wife had an opportunity in Orlando, we moved, and I said I would never work for a law firm, ever. because I was, when my current boss found out I was coming we have a, a long relationship. When I was in, grew up in Florida and so part of that yeah, okay so I was in the right place at the right time and I knew somebody, that's why it's important to stay on top of networking. Always be networking, not for any other reason, just get to know people, you know. the tough thing that I had growing in the industry, I didn't get involved early on, which I should've. I should've gone to events, things like that. Get to know folks because if the people don't know you, why are they going to hire you? It's easier to get in somewhere, or get an opportunity, if they at least know you, or know your name, or know somebody that knows you. That's number one, so I'm big on that. as soon as I moved back here I've already started, I have quarterly lunches with some of the CIOs at different firms, I just put myself put there. Just hey I'm here, want to get together for lunch? It's that simple. number two make sure this is what you want to do, it's a lot of it, and you hear this all the time, a lot of it has to do with personalities and people. You're managing personalities and people half the time. You are not just doing the tech. If you think you're just going to be doing tech, or you're just going to be doing cool stuff, not the case. So, make sure you can, you know, make sure you know what you're getting into because it's, it's very challenging. >> Now that's great, great advice, so network, it's not, I like to say it's not who you know it's who knows you, so get out there. And then, Love it because, a lot of times I would imagine it's thankless. Right, you hear, >> Yep. >> You hear a lot of the chatter when something goes wrong, >> It's like a defense of a football team, you know, it's fine until, >> Until somebody scores. >> And someone gets sacked you know what I mean, otherwise no one cares. >> Alright Jason well thanks for the update, really appreciate you coming on theCUBE again. >> Thank you. >> Alright you're welcome, alright keep it right there buddy. We will be back with our next segment, right after this short break. (mood music)

[Announcer] From the SiliconANGLE Media office in Boston, Massachusetts. It's the CUBE. Now, here's your host Dave Vellante. >> Hi everybody, welcome to this CUBE conversation. We're here again with Jason Thomas who is the CIO of Cole, Scott and Kissane, CSK, Law Firm in Florida. And we're going to talk tech a little bit and specifically going to focus a little bit on the infrastructure, architecture, some of the tools and products that Jason is using. How he is applying technology. Good to see you again, Jason. Thank you for coming on. >> Thank you. >> So we know about your law firm. Largest civil defense law firm in Florida. Very fast growing. You know, I think you said 400 plus attorneys, right? So, growing for the last three or four years from about 300 or so, right? So very fast growing, dynamic. Doing awesome, that's great. Congratulations. I want to talk about your infrastructure. So, paint us a picture of what your shop looks like. And we'll get into it. >> Yup, so I am very big on centralization. So, when I first arrived at the firm we had a lot of data sprawl is the best way to put it. You know, just kind of servers everywhere. Different offices. And I said the first thing we need to do is take all of this. We need to get everything in the data center. That's just going to make life much easier, as much as possible. So, at this point all we really see in any given office is a main controller and a print server. That's it. And, other than that, everything else is in the data center where we use Pure Storage on the back end for our SAN, for our high performance type applications. For our document management where we've moved or in the process of moving all of that to the Cloud. That's much more efficient that way. Sitting on an all FlashArrays is not, does not make sense as far as PDFs and word documents go you are not going to see the crush or data reduction there. And so, we've got that there so, we've got kind of a multi-layer strategy. Not to say that I'm paranoid, but I'm kind of paranoid when it comes to data protection and data loss. And so we started as simple as our file servers, for example, we have shadow copies enabled. That's the simplest, it's free. So, if someone deletes a random file or something, rather than going to our, we don't even have to go to our backup system. We just take a look, some snapshots, go back and restore that. If it's, you know, something simple like that. That way, even if we wanted to let an end user restore a file, we could, but we handle that. >> So it's not self-serve. >> Yeah, it's not self-serve but we do it for them. But, it's a basic tech can do that. You don't have to call the system admin to handle that. Anything further than that, then yeah, we go to the backups and then part of our backup... Our next step in our backup strategy, we are a Rubrik shop, so we have a brick, a brick as they call it in our data, in our backup data center. We have another data center just for backups. So, that all gets stored. The Rubrik, it's completely immutable, and it's got decent retention on that. So... >> Did you bring in RubriK, or was it there? >> I brought in Rubrik, yeah. >> OK, why did you bring in Rubrik? >> We were using, and you had mentioned earlier in the segment, when we started out, we were much smaller than we were years ago. We were using a product that was probably geared more towards SMB, and we needed something a little more enterprise. So, we brought in Rubrik a couple of years ago. >> OK. >> And we've done some, we haven't had to use it, thankfully haven't had to use it much. It's there and we do obviously do testing on it on a regular basis. I have spun up a VM on it which is awesome that I might personally ruined a VM myself it wouldn't boot But luckily it was a test VM so I was able to spin one up there. So it works as advertised. It's awesome, very fast. And then we've also got another data center outside the state of Florida where we have another, basically, it's basically a replica or duplicate of what we have in our main data center and we replicate Pure to Pure. We have another Pure Storage unit in that data center and we use their replication technology and snap-shotting to put everything there as well. >> OK, and what about the network? What's that look like? >> So, we have, right now we have thirteen offices now and they're all on MPLS private network and we've got secondary and third internet connections for backup or internet in general. We're looking at some type of SD-WAN strategy, it means a lot of things to a lot of folks, but for us we like to kind of take advantage of those secondary and third connections and create our own kind of private network if we have an issue with the MPLS. >> And you're a VMware shop, right? >> Yup. >> And you're also, you put stuff in the Cloud. What's your Cloud provider? >> Yup, so, and then our kind of final layer in that, part of that strategy, is I did want to have the option and look in the future to put, to replicate to the Cloud, so I got in touch with Clumio, they're pretty new, new on the street, but the CEO and I know a few of the folks there from other industries and other places and I have a lot of trust in what they're doing. Basically, we are basically replicating all our servers to the AWS Cloud using Clumio, so it's... it integrates in the vCenter and basically sends all of the date up to the AWS cloud. And so, I get the same type of retention as a Rubrik. We get seven years retention, and it's immutable as well, so that's my, kind of my backup of the back up plan. In the future, who knows. We may not even need the DR site anymore. We may just go straight, if we need a failover, we just failover to AWS vCenter in the Cloud. We've got our Clumio backups there and we have the ability to spin up VMs there as well. >> So, okay. So you've got a VMware running on AWS. >> mm-hm >> And that's what you're using in Clumio to protect correct. And why Clumio and not Rubrik if you are a Rubrik shop? >> The management piece. The simplicity of the interface. It's...I like the way they manage everything for you, so you don't even need to have agents on the servers. You basically, it's under their account, you simply install a appliance locally in your environment, a virtual appliance, and they take care of the rest. And you're just presented with an interface, a GUI interface to do whatever, whether it is to do restores, or monitor, or check up on the indexing of the data. That's all, it's pretty simple. There's really not much to do. It's the simplicity of the solution that was really attractive and it's in my mind, it's a no brainer as far as cost and effectiveness. >> And, it's Pure SaaS model is my understanding, >> Pure SaaS. >> Correct? So you're not installing any hardware or >> Nope, no hardware. No agents. It's simply an integration into vCenter and you just let it do it's thing. And that's it. >> It's interesting, I mean you look at the history of SaaS. It kind of started with CRM, kind of went from CBL, to Salesforce, you had Exchange, went to Gmail, and then eventually Office 365. You saw ServiceNow actually took a while, they kind of disrupted BMC, but that took about, you know a decade. Workday was much faster, right? Workday took, who was it... PeopleSoft I guess was the main HR product. So do you feel like a backup is next, or sort of this hybrid world, this mix of sort of on-prem backup folks, and traditional backup and SaaS, or do you think like many of these other, not that these other companies go away, I mean Teradata's going to be doing still well. You have Snowflake disrupting them. But do you see the SaaS backup as something that's going to have legs? >> Yeah, because when you talk about Cloud, it's still, depending on what you want to do, putting your entire infrastructure on the Cloud, it, I mean, it's expensive. You, everyone is preaching Cloud, Cloud, Cloud, but you kind of have to look at it and say, okay, does it really make, from a cost perspective, it doesn't always make sense. It's very expensive to spend above the Azure or AWS. You know once, once you put all the storage and compute costs. But, things like backup, it totally makes sense, and honestly it's been going on at least a decade right, between Carbonite and Mozy and all these players >> Sure, right, and Endpoint. >> You know, so people have been doing it, I mean, Clumio, what they have done has just taken it to the Enterprise and they're taking advantage of different storage tiers in Amazon. I mean, it's not, there's nothing, there's nothing complex I would say, or they didn't come up with something amazing. They just figured, they took something and made... >> Don't tell that to the engineers (jovial laughter) >> I'm sure, listen guys, I'm sure there's a lot of complexity to the engineering behind it, but basically all they've done is put a nice interface on top of something, and they've taken all the complexity out of, you know, setting up your own AWS account. And managing all your buckets. And all that, you know. They're handling, taking care of all of that and doing it for you, basically. And how they do it, you know, I don't know. But definitely different storage tiers and mixes of that to make all of that happen. But they just make it super simple and super affordable, is the other piece. It's very affordable in my mind as opposed to other directions I could go with Cloud backup. >> Yeah, you've mentioned that a couple of times. First, it's amazing to me how, it's like you're compressing the innovation cycles and backup. I mean it was. It just feels like recently you were Cohesity, Rubrik, and raised hundreds of millions of dollars, and it was all about simplicity... >> Yup. >> And they, each of those companies, as I'm sure Veritas and Dell EMC, and Commvault. They all have Cloud plays, right, so I'm still trying to understand what's different about Clumio. It sounds like it's Pure SaaS, that's a different.. I mean you've mentioned cost a few times. Maybe add some color to that. >> They basically done, what they've done they've taken what Rubrik has done. So I'll back up to when I first look at Rubrik. Basically, the phone call that I got was "Hey man, I'm telling you this is like totally disruptive and it's going to blow you away." And I'm like "Dude. It's backups. You're not going to blow my mind. Give me a break." And he's like, "Just give me a chance." And I was like, "All right, all right. Come in and blow my mind." And literally I was like man, why didn't I think of this. >> It blew your mind. >> It blew my mind. (laughter) And I was like literally like... You put a web interface on top of the entire thing and you basically have to do nothing. It does all the indexing. It's like a search. If I want to search for a file, I just simply type the name of the file like I would in Google, and it just searches across. I don't have to know where it exists. I just need to know that it's there. And basically, what Clumio has done, they've just taken that and just put it into the Cloud. They've done this similar thing: they index all of your VMs, and then if I need to restore a file or search for something, I just type the name of the file and it says here's all of the hits that I got, what do you want to restore? You know, where as, I remember back in the day, or more like two years ago, if you needed to restore something, you kind of, okay, where was it? What was the location? What was the exact path? And you got to go D drive, and this folder and this folder. There's none of that anymore even. It's just they've even taken the work out of that so you don't even need... the same reason we went with Pure is you don't need a storage admin and you don't really need a backup admin, per se. You don't need a person spending a lot of time, or devoting a lot of time to the process. It just works. You don't need a babysitter is what it comes down to. So where as, you have one of these legacy type storage arrays or backup systems, you have to babysit it. Nobody has time to babysit that. >> So they've abstracted all of that complexity away and it's going to be interesting to see how the industry responds. It's like the NFL, this industry is a copycat industry, and so at the same time they have a big install base. And people don't generally like to migrate, right, off of something to something else. >> So here's, so what I'll say to that is, and that part stinks, no one likes to migrate off of anything but you're not really migrating off of anything. You don't really have to do much. You just pop something in, you just pop an appliance in, and it really takes care of the rest, like even with Rubrik and Clumio, once you pop that appliance in your environment, hardware or virtual, it integrates integrating into your vCenter environment and it knows what's in there and just asks you, "Hey, which of these do you want to back up; What kind of policy do you want on; how often do you want to backup?" And you just check a box, check boxes. >> So Clumio is not physical hardware? >> No, it's virtual. >> Virtual appliance. >> I think it's like does the management on-prem, it's kind of like a data mover of sorts. >> Today, it's just narrow, right? It's VMware on AWS. >> Correct. >> Presumably there's a road map there. >> I believe there's a road map for my understanding. I would have to think so. I'm not, I'm kind of Cloud agnostic as far as who the player is. Whether it's AWS, Azure, or TCP. But I have colleagues who, they're an Azure shop and that's what we do. And I get that, and so I would imagine, I understand that they probably have Azure and TCP on the road map. >> Well they raised a bunch of dough so I'm sure they've got a road map. >> They've got to do something with it, right. (jovial laughter) Because the backup is so simple, so there's not a lot of engineering. >> Okay. So you don't have a dedicated storage admin or backup admin. >> No. >> Did you used to? >> Before I got there, there was no SAN actually, so there was no storage, but yes, there was a lot of time spent on the backup piece. Managing the backups. Just monitoring it, make sure things were... a lot of time devoted to that. Now there's not a lot of time spent on that. >> And was it qualified people doing it or was it lawyers and paralegals doing the backup? >> Definitely lawyers. (jovial laughter) So yeah, it was our sys-admins. Now they worry about other stuff that's important. >> What do they worry about? How have you shifted that resource? >> A lot of our focus now is moving to exchange in the Cloud. Office 365. So there's quite a bit of work that goes into that, especially given our, some integrations that we have with our case management software and all that. So there's a lot time being devoted to that right now. So our plan is to move next year. >> Okay. So a lot of tactical stuff that you have to get done. >> Yup. >> Last question. I always love to ask this. Things that vendors do that drive you crazy, that you want to tell them "stop doing this?" >> There is not, everyone has a solution for something, and not everybody needs that solution for your one niche. I mean, you go to some of these conferences now and there's billions of vendors, well not billions, but there's just dozens and dozens of vendors and it's almost like some of them are just kind of monetizing that one little thing that I don't really need. So, backups. I need Cloud backups. Storage. I need storage. Outside of that, there's just... and the best way to put it is that I've talked to some colleagues and they're just going through what we like to call vendor fatigue. It's just continuous. It's just all of the time. Someone always has a solution for something. It's not that I don't want anybody to do something, but your solutions are just not for everybody. And it just doesn't work. >> Well the thing is that you're getting pitched all the time and you're experienced. So look at, tell me what it is, what it does, what it costs, and give me five minutes and I'll tell you if it fits my business or not. If it does, I'm going to want to know more. If it doesn't, hey, respect my time. >> Yeah. Usually it's for me, I'm approaching them, I'm approaching a vendor for a solution, not the other way around. If you're approaching me, I'm probably, yeah, I don't have time to answer every call or email. I try to. But usually it's me saying, "hey, we need something for this." And then every once in a while you'll get a Rubrik or Clumio or a Pure come around and well that looks cool. >> Now, is that going to blow your mind? >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, sure. >> But then you find out. >> If it doesn't, then I owe you dinner. All right, all right. >> Then they blow your mind. And that happens. Remember, I'm not saying that doesn't happen. It's just very rare. >> Well a big part of this is that so much venture capital has poured into the tech business in the last ten years. And what do they do with that VC: they promote. They hire sales people. >> Yup. >> They hire go to market so they're under a lot of pressure and are churning through those guys. So they're calling guys like you, trying to get you in a headlock to buy something. It sounds like sometimes it's counter-productive. >> Yeah, I get it, and that's their job that they have to do. I have a policy, I try to answer every email, at least, "I can't" or "I'm not interested." At least that much. I try not to ignore folks, but sometimes it just doesn't work out. >> Good, well thank you for sharing all that insight, Jason. It's great to have you back on. >> Yeah, thank you. >> All right, welcome. All right, thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante from the CUBE. See you next time. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Midtown Manhattan, it's theCUBE. Covering BigData New York City 2017. Brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media and its ecosystem sponsors. (calm electronic music) >> Basil Faruqui, who's the Solutions Marketing Manger at BMC, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, good to be back on theCUBE. >> So first of all, heard you guys had a tough time in Houston, so hope everything's gettin' better, and best wishes to everyone down in-- >> We're definitely in recovery mode now. >> Yeah and so hopefully that can get straightened out quick. What's going on with BMC? Give us a quick update in context to BigData NYC. What's happening, what is BMC doing in the big data space now, the AI space now, the IOT space now, the cloud space? >> So like you said that, you know, the data link space, the IOT space, the AI space, there are four components of this entire picture that literally haven't changed since the beginning of computing. If you look at those four components of a data pipeline it's ingestion, storage, processing, and analytics. What keeps changing around it, is the infrastructure, the types of data, the volume of data, and the applications that surround it. And the rate of change has picked up immensely over the last few years with Hadoop coming in to the picture, public cloud providers pushing it. It's obviously creating a number of challenges, but one of the biggest challenges that we are seeing in the market, and we're helping costumers address, is a challenge of automating this and, obviously, the benefit of automation is in scalability as well and reliability. So when you look at this rather simple data pipeline, which is now becoming more and more complex, how do you automate all of this from a single point of control? How do you continue to absorb new technologies, and not re-architect our automation strategy every time, whether it's it Hadoop, whether it's bringing in machine learning from a cloud provider? And that is the issue we've been solving for customers-- >> Alright let me jump into it. So, first of all, you mention some things that never change, ingestion, storage, and what's the third one? >> Ingestion, storage, processing and eventually analytics. >> And analytics. >> Okay so that's cool, totally buy that. Now if your move and say, hey okay, if you believe that standard, but now in the modern era that we live in, which is complex, you want breath of data, but also you want the specialization when you get down to machine limits highly bounded, that's where the automation is right now. We see the trend essentially making that automation more broader as it goes into the customer environments. >> Correct >> How do you architect that? If I'm a CXO, or I'm a CDO, what's in it for me? How do I architect this? 'Cause that's really the number one thing, as I know what the building blocks are, but they've changed in their dynamics to the market place. >> So the way I look at it, is that what defines success and failure, and particularly in big data projects, is your ability to scale. If you start a pilot, and you spend three months on it, and you deliver some results, but if you cannot roll it out worldwide, nationwide, whatever it is, essentially the project has failed. The analogy I often given is Walmart has been testing the pick-up tower, I don't know if you've seen. So this is basically a giant ATM for you to go pick up an order that you placed online. They're testing this at about a hundred stores today. Now if that's a success, and Walmart wants to roll this out nation wide, how much time do you think their IT department's going to have? Is this a five year project, a ten year project? No, and the management's going to want this done six months, ten months. So essentially, this is where automation becomes extremely crucial because it is now allowing you to deliver speed to market and without automation, you are not going to be able to get to an operational stage in a repeatable and reliable manner. >> But you're describing a very complex automation scenario. How can you automate in a hurry without sacrificing the details of what needs to be? In other words, there would seem to call for repurposing or reusing prior automation scripts and rules, so forth. How can the Walmart's of the world do that fast, but also do it well? >> Yeah so we do it, we go about it in two ways. One is that out of the box we provide a lot of pre-built integrations to some of the most commonly used systems in an enterprise. All the way from the Mainframes, Oracles, SAPs, Hadoop, Tableaus of the world, they're all available out of the box for you to quickly reuse these objects and build an automated data pipeline. The other challenge we saw, and particularly when we entered the big data space four years ago was that the automation was something that was considered close to the project becoming operational. Okay, and that's where a lot of rework happened because developers had been writing their own scripts using point solutions, so we said alright, it's time to shift automation left, and allow companies to build automations and artifact very early in the developmental life cycle. About a month ago, we released what we call Control-M Workbench, its essentially a community edition of Control-M, targeted towards developers so that instead of writing their own scripts, they can use Control-M in a completely offline manner, without having to connect to an enterprise system. As they build, and test, and iterate, they're using Control-M to do that. So as the application progresses through the development life cycle, and all of that work can then translate easily into an enterprise edition of Control-M. >> Just want to quickly define what shift left means for the folks that might not know software methodologies, they don't think >> Yeah, so. of left political, left or right. >> So, we're not shifting Control-M-- >> Alt-left, alt-right, I mean, this is software development, so quickly take a minute and explain what shift left means, and the importance of it. >> Correct, so if you think of software development as a straight line continuum, you've got, you will start with building some code, you will do some testing, then unit testing, then user acceptance testing. As it moves along this chain, there was a point right before production where all of the automation used to happen. Developers would come in and deliver the application to Ops and Ops would say, well hang on a second, all this Crontab, and these other point solutions we've been using for automation, that's not what we use in production, and we need you to now go right in-- >> So test early and often. >> Test early and often. So the challenge was the developers, the tools they used were not the tools that were being used on the production end of the site. And there was good reason for it, because developers don't need something really heavy and with all the bells and whistles early in the development lifecycle. Now Control-M Workbench is a very light version, which is targeted at developers and focuses on the needs that they have when they're building and developing it. So as the application progresses-- >> How much are you seeing waterfall-- >> But how much can they, go ahead. >> How much are you seeing waterfall, and then people shifting left becoming more prominent now? What percentage of your customers have moved to Agile, and shifting left percentage wise? >> So we survey our customers on a regular basis, and the last survey showed that eighty percent of the customers have either implemented a more continuous integration delivery type of framework, or are in the process of doing it, And that's the other-- >> And getting close to a 100 as possible, pretty much. >> Yeah, exactly. The tipping point is reached. >> And what is driving. >> What is driving all is the need from the business. The days of the five year implementation timelines are gone. This is something that you need to deliver every week, two weeks, and iteration. >> Iteration, yeah, yeah. And we have also innovated in that space, and the approach we call jobs as code, where you can build entire complex data pipelines in code format, so that you can enable the automation in a continuous integration and delivery framework. >> I have one quick question, Jim, and I'll let you take the floor and get a word in soon, but I have one final question on this BMC methodology thing. You guys have a history, obviously BMC goes way back. Remember Max Watson CEO, and Bob Beach, back in '97 we used to chat with him, dominated that landscape. But we're kind of going back to a systems mindset. The question for you is, how do you view the issue of this holy grail, the promised land of AI and machine learning, where end-to-end visibility is really the goal, right? At the same time, you want bounded experiences at root level so automation can kick in to enable more activity. So there's a trade-off between going for the end-to-end visibility out of the gate, but also having bounded visibility and data to automate. How do you guys look at that market? Because customers want the end-to-end promise, but they don't want to try to get there too fast. There's a diseconomies of scale potentially. How do you talk about that? >> Correct. >> And that's exactly the approach we've taken with Control-M Workbench, the Community Edition, because earlier on you don't need capabilities like SLA management and forecasting and automated promotion between environments. Developers want to be able to quickly build and test and show value, okay, and they don't need something that is with all the bells and whistles. We're allowing you to handle that piece, in that manner, through Control-M Workbench. As things progress and the application progresses, the needs change as well. Well now I'm closer to delivering this to the business, I need to be able to manage this within an SLA, I need to be able to manage this end-to-end and connect this to other systems of record, and streaming data, and clickstream data, all of that. So that, we believe that it doesn't have to be a trade off, that you don't have to compromise speed and quality for end-to-end visibility and enterprise grade automation. >> You mentioned trade offs, so the Control-M Workbench, the developer can use it offline, so what amount of testing can they possibly do on a complex data pipeline automation when the tool's offline? I mean it seems like the more development they do offline, the greater the risk that it simply won't work when they go into production. Give us a sense for how they mitigate, the mitigation risk in using Control-M Workbench. >> Sure, so we spend a lot of time observing how developers work, right? And very early in the development stage, all they're doing is working off of their Mac or their laptop, and they're not really connected to any. And that is where they end up writing a lot of scripts, because whatever code business logic they've written, the way they're going to make it run is by writing scripts. And that, essentially, becomes the problem, because then you have scripts managing more scripts, and as the application progresses, you have this complex web of scripts and Crontabs and maybe some opensource solutions, trying to simply make all of this run. And by doing this on an offline manner, that doesn't mean that they're losing all of the other Control-M capabilities. Simply, as the application progresses, whatever automation that the builtin Control-M can seamlessly now flow into the next stage. So when you are ready to take an application into production, there's essentially no rework required from an automation perspective. All of that, that was built, can now be translated into the enterprise-grade Control M, and that's where operations can then go in and add the other artifacts, such as SLA management and forecasting and other things that are important from an operational perspective. >> I'd like to get both your perspectives, 'cause, so you're like an analyst here, so Jim, I want you guys to comment. My question to both of you would be, lookin' at this time in history, obviously in the BMC side we mention some of the history, you guys are transforming on a new journey in extending that capability of this world. Jim, you're covering state-of-the-art AI machine learning. What's your take of this space now? Strata Data, which is now Hadoop World, which is Cloud Air went public, Hortonworks is now public, kind of the big, the Hadoop guys kind of grew up, but the world has changed around them, it's not just about Hadoop anymore. So I'd like to get your thoughts on this kind of perspective, that we're seeing a much broader picture in big data in NYC, versus the Strata Hadoop show, which seems to be losing steam, but I mean in terms of the focus. The bigger focus is much broader, horizontally scalable. And your thoughts on the ecosystem right now? >> Let the Basil answer fist, unless Basil wants me to go first. >> I think that the reason the focus is changing, is because of where the projects are in their lifecycle. Now what we're seeing is most companies are grappling with, how do I take this to the next level? How do I scale? How do I go from just proving out one or two use cases to making the entire organization data driven, and really inject data driven decision making in all facets of decision making? So that is, I believe what's driving the change that we're seeing, that now you've gone from Strata Hadoop to being Strata Data, and focus on that element. And, like I said earlier, the difference between success and failure is your ability to scale and operationalize. Take machine learning for an example. >> Good, that's where there's no, it's not a hype market, it's show me the meat on the bone, show me scale, I got operational concerns of security and what not. >> And machine learning, that's one of the hottest topics. A recent survey I read, which pulled a number of data scientists, it revealed that they spent about less than 3% of their time in training the data models, and about 80% of their time in data manipulation, data transformation and enrichment. That is obviously not the best use of a data scientist's time, and that is exactly one of the problems we're solving for our customers around the world. >> That needs to be automated to the hilt. To help them >> Correct. to be more productive, to deliver faster results. >> Ecosystem perspective, Jim, what's your thoughts? >> Yeah, everything that Basil said, and I'll just point out that many of the core uses cases for AI are automation of the data pipeline. It's driving machine learning driven predictions, classifications, abstractions and so forth, into the data pipeline, into the application pipeline to drive results in a way that is contextually and environmentally aware of what's goin' on. The history, historical data, what's goin' on in terms of current streaming data, to drive optimal outcomes, using predictive models and so forth, in line to applications. So really, fundamentally then, what's goin' on is that automation is an artifact that needs to be driven into your application architecture as a repurposable resource for a variety of-- >> Do customers even know what to automate? I mean, that's the question, what do I-- >> You're automating human judgment. You're automating effort, like the judgments that a working data engineer makes to prepare data for modeling and whatever. More and more that can be automated, 'cause those are pattern structured activities that have been mastered by smart people over many years. >> I mean we just had a customer on with a Glass'Gim CSK, with that scale, and his attitude is, we see the results from the users, then we double down and pay for it and automate it. So the automation question, it's an option question, it's a rhetorical question, but it just begs the question, which is who's writing the algorithms as machines get smarter and start throwing off their own real-time data? What are you looking at? How do you determine? You're going to need machine learning for machine learning? Are you going to need AI for AI? Who writes the algorithms >> It's actually, that's. for the algorithm? >> Automated machine learning is a hot, hot not only research focus, but we're seeing it more and more solution providers, like Microsoft and Google and others, are goin' deep down, doubling down in investments in exactly that area. That's a productivity play for data scientists. >> I think the data markets going to change radically in my opinion. I see you're startin' to some things with blockchain and some other things that are interesting. Data sovereignty, data governance are huge issues. Basil, just give your final thoughts for this segment as we wrap this up. Final thoughts on data and BMC, what should people know about BMC right now? Because people might have a historical view of BMC. What's the latest, what should they know? What's the new Instagram picture of BMC? What should they know about you guys? >> So I think what I would say people should know about BMC is that all the work that we've done over the last 25 years, in virtually every platform that came before Hadoop, we have now innovated to take this into things like big data and cloud platforms. So when you are choosing Control-M as a platform for automation, you are choosing a very, very mature solution, an example of which is Navistar. Their CIO's actually speaking at the Keno tomorrow. They've had Control-M for 15, 20 years, and they've automated virtually every business function through Control-M. And when they started their predictive maintenance project, where they're ingesting data from about 300,000 vehicles today to figure out when this vehicle might break, and to predict maintenance on it. When they started their journey, they said that they always knew that they were going to use Control-M for it, because that was the enterprise standard, and they knew that they could simply now extend that capability into this area. And when they started about three, four years ago, they were ingesting data from about 100,000 vehicles. That has now scaled to over 325,000 vehicles, and they have no had to re-architect their strategy as they grow and scale. So I would say that is one of the key messages that we are taking to market, is that we are bringing innovation that spans over 25 years, and evolving it-- >> Modernizing it, basically. >> Modernizing it, and bringing it to newer platforms. >> Well congratulations, I wouldn't call that a pivot, I'd call it an extensibility issue, kind of modernizing kind of the core things. >> Absolutely. >> Thanks for coming and sharing the BMC perspective inside theCUBE here, on BigData NYC, this is the theCUBE, I'm John Furrier. Jim Kobielus here in New York city. More live coverage, for three days we'll be here, today, tomorrow and Thursday, and BigData NYC, more coverage after this short break. (calm electronic music) (vibrant electronic music)