(bright music) >> Hello everyone and welcome back to AWS re:Invent, here in wonderful Las Vegas, Nevada. We're theCUBE. I am Savannah Peterson. Joined with my co-host, Dave Vellante. Day four, you look great. Your voice has come back somehow. >> Yeah, a little bit. I don't know how. I took last night off. You guys, I know, were out partying all night, but - >> I don't know what you're talking about. (Dave laughing) >> Well, you were celebrating John's birthday. John Furrier's birthday today. >> Yes, happy birthday John! >> He's on his way to England. >> Yeah. >> To attend his nephew's wedding. Awesome family. And so good luck, John. I hope you feel better, he's got a little cold. >> I know, good luck to the newlyweds. I love this. I know we're both really excited for our next guest, so I'm going to bring out, Lena Smart from MongoDB. Thank you so much for being here. >> Thank you for having me. >> How's the show going for you? >> Good. It's been a long week. And I just, not much voice left, so. >> We'll be gentle on you. >> I'll give you what's left of it. >> All right, we'll take that. >> Okay. >> You had a fireside chat, at the show? >> Lena: I did. >> Can you tell us a little bit about that? >> So we were talking about the Rise, The developer is a platform. In this massive theater. I thought it would be like an intimate, you know, fireside chat. I keep believing them when they say to me come and do these talks, it'll be intimate. And you turn up and there's a stage and a theater and it's like, oh my god. But it was really interesting. It was well attended. Got some really good questions at the end as well. Lots of follow up, which was interesting. And it was really just about, you know, how we've brought together this developer platform that's got our integrated services. It's just what developers want, it gives them time to innovate and disrupt, rather than worry about the minutia of management. >> Savannah: Do the cool stuff. >> Exactly. >> Yeah, so you know Lena, it's funny that you're saying that oh wow, the lights came on and it was this big thing. When when we were at re:Inforced, Lena was on stage and it was so funny, Lena, you were self deprecating like making jokes about the audience. >> Savannah: (indistinct) >> It was hilarious. And so, but it was really endearing to the audience and so we were like - >> Lena: It was terrifying. >> You got huge props for that, I'll tell you. >> Absolutely terrifying. Because they told me I wouldn't see anyone. Because we did the rehearsal the day before, and they were like, it's just going to be like - >> Sometimes it just looks like blackness out there. >> Yeah, yeah. It wasn't, they lied. I could see eyeballs. It was terrifying. >> Would you rather know that going in though? Or is it better to be, is ignorance bliss in that moment? >> Ignorance is bliss. >> Yeah, yeah yeah. >> Good call Savannah, right? Yeah, just go. >> The older I get, the more I'm just, I'm on the ignorance is bliss train. I just, I don't need to know anything that's going to hurt my soul. >> Exactly. >> One of the things that you mentioned, and this has actually been a really frequent theme here on the show this week, is you said that this has been a transformative year for developers. >> Lena: Yeah. >> What did you mean by that? >> So I think developers are starting to come to the fore, if you like, the fore. And I'm not in any way being deprecating about developers 'cause I love them. >> Savannah: I think everyone here does. >> I was married to one, I live with one now. It's like, they follow me everywhere. They don't. But, I think they, this is my opinion obviously but I think that we're seeing more and more the value that developers bring to the table. They're not just code geeks anymore. They're not just code monkeys, you know, churning out lines and lines of code. Some of the most interesting discussions I've had this week have been with developers. And that's why I'm so pleased that our developer data platform is going to give these folks back time, so that they can go and innovate. And do super interesting things and do the next big thing. It was interesting, I was talking to Mary, our comms person earlier and she had said that Dave I guess, my boss, was on your show - >> Dave: Yeah, he was over here last night. >> Yeah. And he was saying that two thirds of the companies that had been mentioned so far, within the whole gamut of this conference use MongoDB. And so take that, extrapolate that, of all the developers >> Wow. >> who are there. I know, isn't that awesome? >> That's awesome. Congrats on that, that's like - >> Did I hear that right now? >> I know, I just had that moment. >> I know she just told me, I'm like, really? That's - >> That's so cool. >> 'Cause the first thing I thought of was then, oh my god, how many developers are we reaching then? 'Cause they're the ones. I mean, it's kind of interesting. So my job has kind of grown from, over the years, being the security geek in the back room that nobody talks to, to avoiding me in the lift, to I've got a seat at the table now. We meet with the board. And I think that I can see that that's where the developer mindset is moving towards. It's like, give us the right tools and we'll change your world. >> And let the human capital go back to doing the fun stuff and not just the maintenance stuff. >> And, but then you say that, you can't have everything automated. I get that automation is also the buzzword of the week. And I get that, trust me. Someone has to write the code to do the automation. >> Savannah: Right. >> So, so yeah, definitely give these people back time, so that they can work on ML, AI, choose your buzzword. You know, by giving people things like queriable encryption for example, you're going to free up a whole bunch of head space. They don't have to worry about their data being, you know harvested from memory or harvested while at rest or in motion. And it's like, okay, I don't have to worry about that now, let me go do something fun. >> How about the role of the developer as it relates to SecOps, right? They're being asked to do a lot. You and I talked about this at re:Inforce. You seem to have a pretty good handle on it. Like a lot of companies I think are struggling with it. I mean, the other thing you said said to me is you don't have a lack of talent at Mongo, right? 'Cause you're Mongo. But a lot of companies do. But a lot of the developers, you know we were just talking about this earlier with Capgemini, the developer metrics or the application development team's metrics might not be aligned with the CSO's metrics. How, what are you seeing there? What, how do you deal with it within Mongo? What do you advise your customers? >> So in terms of internal, I work very closely with our development group. So I work with Tara Hernandez, who's our new VP of developer productivity. And she and her team are very much interested in making developers more productive. That's her job. And so we get together because sometimes security can definitely be seen as a blocker. You know, funnily enough, I actually had a Slack that I had to respond to three seconds before I come on here. And it was like, help, we need some help getting this application through procurement, because blah, blah, blah. And it's weird the kind of change, the shift in mindset. Whereas before they might have gone to procurement or HR or someone to ask for this. Now they're coming to the CSO. 'Cause they know if I say yes, it'll go through. >> Talk about social engineering. >> Exactly. >> You were talking about - >> But turn it around though. If I say no, you know, I don't like to say no. I prefer to be the CSO that says yes, but. And so that's what we've done. We've definitely got that culture of ask, we'll tell you the risks, and then you can go away and be innovative and do what you need to do. And we basically do the same with our customers. Here's what you can do. Our application is secure out of the box. Here's how we can help you make it even more, you know, streamlined or bespoke to what you need. >> So mobile was a big inflection point, you know, I dunno, it seems like forever ago. >> 2007. >> 2007. Yeah, iPhone came out in 2007. >> You remember your first iPhone? >> Dave: Yeah. >> Yeah? Same. >> Yeah. It was pretty awesome, actually. >> Yeah, I do too. >> Yeah, I was on the train to Boston going up to see some friends at MIT on the consortium that I worked with. And I had, it was the wee one, 'member? But you thought it was massive. >> Oh, it felt - >> It felt big. And I remember I was sitting on the train to Boston it was like the Estella and there was these people, these two women sitting beside me. And they were all like glam, like you and unlike me. >> Dave: That's awesome. >> And they, you could see them like nudging each other. And I'm being like, I'm just sitting like this. >> You're chilling. >> Like please look at my phone, come on just look at it. Ask me about it. And eventually I'm like - >> You're baiting them. >> nonchalantly laid it on the table. And you know, I'm like, and they're like, is that an iPhone? And I'm like, yeah, you want to see it? >> I thought you'd never ask. >> I know. And I really played with it. And I showed them all the cool stuff, and they're like, oh we're going to buy iPhones. And so I should have probably worked for Apple, but I didn't. >> I was going to say, where was your referral kickback on that? Especially - >> It was a little like Tesla, right? When you first, we first saw Tesla, it was Ray Wong, you know, Ray? From Pasadena? >> It really was a moment and going from the Blackberry keyboard to that - >> He's like want to see my car? And I'm like oh yeah sure, what's the big deal? >> Yeah, then you see it and you're like, ooh. >> Yeah, that really was such a pivotal moment. >> Anyway, so we lost a track, 2007. >> Yeah, what were we talking about? 2007 mobile. >> Mobile. >> Key inflection point, is where you got us here. Thank you. >> I gotchu Dave, I gotchu. >> Bring us back here. My mind needs help right now. Day four. Okay, so - >> We're all getting here on day four, we're - >> I'm socially engineering you to end this, so I can go to bed and die quietly. That's what me and Mary are, we're counting down the minutes. >> Holy. >> That's so sick. >> You're breaking my heart right now. I love it. I'm with you, sis, I'm with you. >> So I dunno where I was, really where I was going with this, but, okay, there's - >> 2007. Three things happened. >> Another inflection point. Okay yeah, tell us what happened. But no, tell us that, but then - >> AWS, clones, 2006. >> Well 2006, 2007. Right, okay. >> 2007, the iPhone, the world blew up. So you've already got this platform ready to take all this data. >> Dave: Right. >> You've got this little slab of gorgeousness called the iPhone, ready to give you all that data. And then MongoDB pops up, it's like, woo-hoo. But what we could offer was, I mean back then was awesome, but it was, we knew that we would have to iterate and grow and grow and grow. So that was kind of the three things that came together in 2007. >> Yeah, and then Cloud came in big time, and now you've got this platform. So what's the next inflection point do you think? >> Oh... >> Good question, Dave. >> Don't even ask me that. >> I mean, is it Edge? Is it IOT? Is there another disruptor out there? >> I think it's going to be artificial intelligence. >> Dave: Is it AI? >> I mean I don't know enough about it to talk about it, to any level, so don't ask me any questions about it. >> This is like one of those ignorance is bliss moments. It feels right. >> Yeah. >> Well, does it scare you, from a security perspective? Or? >> Great question, Dave. >> Yeah, it scares me more from a humanity standpoint. Like - >> More than social scared you? 'Cause social was so benign when it started. >> Oh it was - >> You're like, oh - I remember, >> It was like a yearbook. I was on the Estella and we were - >> Shout out to Amtrak there. >> I was with, we were starting basically a wikibond, it was an open source. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Kind of, you know, technology community. And we saw these and we were like enamored of Facebook. And there were these two young kids on the train, and we were at 'em, we were picking the brain. Do you like Facebook? "I love Facebook." They're like "oh, Facebook's unbelievable." Now, kids today, "I hate Facebook," right? So, but social at the beginning it was kind of, like I say, benign and now everybody's like - >> Savannah: We didn't know what we were getting into. >> Right. >> I know. >> Exactly. >> Can you imagine if you could have seen into the future 20 years ago? Well first of all, we'd have all bought Facebook and Apple stock. >> Savannah: Right. >> And Tesla stock. But apart from, but yeah apart from that. >> Okay, so what about Quantum? Does that scare you at all? >> I think the only thing that scares me about Quantum is we have all this security in place today. And I'm not an expert in Quantum, but we have all this security in place that's securing what we have today. And my worry is, in 10 years, is it still going to be secure? 'Cause we're still going to be using that data in some way, shape, or form. And my question is to the quantum geniuses out there, what do we do in 10 years like to retrofit the stuff? >> Dave: Like a Y2K moment? >> Kind of. Although I think Y2K is coming in 2038, isn't it? When the Linux date flips. I'll be off the grid by then, I'll be living in Scotland. >> Somebody else's problem. >> Somebody else's problem. I'll be with the sheep in Glasgow, in Scotland. >> Y2K was a boondoggle for tech, right? >> What a farce. I mean, that whole - >> I worked in the power industry in Y2K. That was a nightmare. >> Dave: Oh I bet. >> Savannah: Oh my God. >> Yeah, 'cause we just assumed that the world was going to stop and there been no power, and we had nuclear power plants. And it's like holy moly. Yeah. >> More than moly. >> I was going to say, you did a good job holding that other word in. >> I think I was going to, in case my mom hears this. >> I grew up near Diablo Canyon in, in California. So you were, I mean we were legitimately worried that that exactly was going to happen. And what about the waste? And yeah it was chaos. We've covered a lot. >> Well, what does worry you? Like, it is culture? Is it - >> Why are you trying to freak her out? >> No, no, because it's a CSO, trying to get inside the CSO's head. >> You don't think I have enough to worry about? You want to keep piling on? >> Well if it's not Quantum, you know? Maybe it's spiders or like - >> Oh but I like spiders, well spiders are okay. I don't like bridges, that's my biggest fear. Bridges. >> Seriously? >> And I had to drive over the Tappan Zee bridge, which is one of the longest, for 17 years, every day, twice. The last time I drove over it, I was crying my heart out, and happy as anything. >> Stay out of Oakland. >> I've never driven over it since. Stay out of where? >> Stay out of Oakland. >> I'm staying out of anywhere that's got lots of water. 'Cause it'll have bridges. >> Savannah: Well it's good we're here in the desert. >> Exactly. So what scares me? Bridges, there you go. >> Yeah, right. What? >> Well wait a minute. So if I'm bridging technology, is that the scary stuff? >> Oh God, that was not - >> Was it really bad? >> It was really bad. >> Wow. Wow, the puns. >> There's a lot of seems in those bridges. >> It is lit on theCUBE A floor, we are all struggling. I'm curious because I've seen, your team is all over the place here on the show, of course. Your booth has been packed the whole time. >> Lena: Yes. >> The fingerprint. Talk to me about your shirt. >> So, this was designed by my team in house. It is the most wanted swag in the company, because only my security people wear it. So, we make it like, yeah, you could maybe have one, if this turns out well. >> I feel like we're on the right track. >> Dave: If it turns out well. >> Yeah, I just love it. It's so, it's just brilliant. I mean, it's the leaf, it's a fingerprint. It's just brilliant. >> That's why I wanted to call it out. You know, you see a lot of shirts, a lot of swag shirts. Some are really unfortunately sad, or not funny, >> They are. >> or they're just trying too hard. Now there's like, with this one, I thought oh I bet that's clever. >> Lena: It is very cool. Yes, I love it. >> I saw a good one yesterday. >> Yeah? >> We fix shit, 'member? >> Oh yeah, yeah. >> That was pretty good. >> I like when they're >> That's a pretty good one. >> just straightforward, like that, yeah yeah. >> But the only thing with this is when you're say in front of a green screen, you look as though you've got no tummy. >> A portal through your body. >> And so, when we did our first - >> That's a really good point, actually. >> Yeah, it's like the black hole to nothingless. And I'm like wow, that's my soul. >> I was just going to say, I don't want to see my soul like that. I don't want to know. >> But we had to do like, it was just when the pandemic first started, so we had to do our big presentation live announcement from home. And so they shipped us all this camera equipment for home and thank God my partner knows how that works, so he set it all up. And then he had me test with a green screen, and he's like, you have no tummy. I'm like, what the hell are you talking about? He's like, come and see. It's like this, I dunno what it was. So I had to actually go upstairs and felt tip with a magic marker and make it black. >> Wow. >> So that was why I did for two hours on a Friday, yeah. >> Couldn't think of another alternative, huh? >> Well no, 'cause I'm myopic when it comes to marketing and I knew I had to keep the tshirt on, and I just did that. >> Yeah. >> In hindsight, yes I could have worn an "I Fix Shit" tshirt, but I don't think my husband would've been very happy. I secure shit? >> There you go, yeah. >> There you go. >> Over to you, Savannah. >> I was going to say, I got acquainted, I don't know if I can say this, but I'm going to say it 'cause we're here right now. I got acquainted with theCUBE, wearing a shirt that said "Unfuck Kubernetes," 'cause it was a marketing campaign that I was running for one of my clients at Kim Con last year. >> That's so good. >> Yeah, so - >> Oh my God. I'll give you one of these if you get me one of those. >> I can, we can do a swapskee. We can absolutely. >> We need a few edits on this film, on the file. >> Lena: Okay, this is nothing - >> We're fallin' off the wheel. Okay, on that note, I'm going to bring us to our challenge that we discussed, before we got started on this really diverse discussion that we have had in the last 15 minutes. We've covered everything from felt tip markers to nuclear power plants. >> To the darkness of my soul. >> To the darkness of all of our souls. >> All of our souls, yes. >> Which is perhaps a little too accurate, especially at this stage in the conference. You've obviously seen a lot Lena, and you've been rockin' it, I know John was in your suite up here, at at at the Venetian. What's your 30 second hot take? Most important story, coming out of the show or for you all at Mongo this year? >> Genuinely, it was when I learned that two-thirds of the customers that had been mentioned, here, are MongoDB customers. And that just exploded in my head. 'Cause now I'm thinking of all the numbers and the metrics and how we can use that. And I just think it's amazing, so. >> Yeah, congratulations on that. That's awesome. >> Yeah, I thought it was amazing. >> And it makes sense actually, 'cause Mongo so easy to use. We were talking about Tengen. >> We knew you when, I feel that's our like, we - >> Yeah, but it's true. And so, Mongo was just really easy to use. And people are like, ah, it doesn't scale. It's like, turns out it actually does scale. >> Lena: Turns out, it scales pretty well. >> Well Lena, without question, this is my favorite conversation of the show so far. >> Thank you. >> Thank you so much for joining us. >> Thank you very much for having me. >> Dave: Great to see you. >> It's always a pleasure. >> Dave: Thanks Lena. >> Thank you. >> And thank you all, tuning in live, for tolerating wherever we take these conversations. >> Dave: Whatever that was. >> I bet you weren't ready for this one, folks. We're at AWS re:Invent in Las Vegas, Nevada. With Dave Vellante, I'm Savannah Peterson. You're washing theCUBE, the leader for high tech coverage.

>>Good afternoon, friends. My name is Savannah Peterson here in the Cube Studios live from Detroit, Michigan, where we're at Cuban and Cloud Native Foundation, Cloud Native Con all week. Our last interview of the day served me a real treat and one that I wasn't expecting. It turns out that I am in the presence of two caddies. It's a literal episode of Caddy Shack up here on Cube. John Furrier. I don't think the audience knows that you were a caddy. Tell us about your caddy days. >>I used to caddy when I was a kid at the local country club every weekend. This is amazing. Double loops every weekend. Make some bang, two bags on each shoulder. Caddying for the members where you're going. Now I'm >>On show. Just, just really impressive >>Now. Now I'm caddying for the cube where I caddy all this great content out to the audience. >>He's carrying the story of emerging brands and established companies on their cloud journey. I love it. John, well played. I don't wanna waste any more of this really wonderful individual's time, but since we now have a new trend of talking about everyone's Twitter handle here on the cube, this may be my favorite one of the day, if not Q4 so far. Drew, not reply. AKA Drew ne Drew Nielsen, excuse me, there is here with us from Teleport. Drew, thanks so much for being here. >>Oh, thanks for having me. It's great to be here. >>And so you were a caddy on a whole different level. Can you tell us >>About that? Yeah, so I was in university and I got tired after two years and didn't have a car in LA and met a pro golfer at a golf course and took two years off and traveled around caddying for him and tried to get 'em through Q School. >>This is, this is fantastic. So if you're in school and your parents are telling you to continue going to school, know that you can drop out and be a caddy and still be a very successful television personality. Like both of the gentlemen at some point. >>Well, I never said my parents like >>That decision, but we'll keep our day jobs. Yeah, exactly. And one of them is Cloud Native Security. The hottest topic here at the show. Yep. I want to get into it. You guys are doing some really cool things. Are we? We hear Zero Trust, you know, ransomware and we even, I even talked with the CEO of Dockets morning about container security issues. Sure. There's a lot going on. So you guys are in the middle of teleport. You guys have a unique solution. Tell us what you guys got going on. What do you guys do? What's the solution and what's the problem you solve? >>So Teleport is the first and only identity native infrastructure access solution in the market. So breaking that down, what that really means is identity native being the combination of secret list, getting rid of passwords, Pam Vaults, Key Vaults, Yeah. Passwords written down. Basically the number one source of breach. And 50 to 80% of breaches, depending on whose numbers you want to believe are how organizations get hacked. >>But it's not password 1 23 isn't protecting >>Cisco >>Right >>Now. Well, if you think about when you're securing infrastructure and the second component being zero trust, which assumes the network is completely insecure, right? But everything is validated. Resource to resource security is validated, You know, it assumes work from anywhere. It assumes the security comes back to that resource. And we take the combination of those two into identity, native access where we cryptographically ev, validate identity, but more importantly, we make an absolutely frictionless experience. So engineers can access infrastructure from anywhere at any time. >>I'm just flashing on my roommates, checking their little code, changing Bob login, you know, dongle essentially, and how frustrating that always was. I mean, talk about interrupting workflow was something that's obviously necessary, but >>Well, I mean, talk about frustration if I'm an engineer. Yeah, absolutely. You know, back in the day when you had these three tier monolithic applications, it was kind of simple. But now as you've got modern application development environments Yeah, multi-cloud, hybrid cloud, whatever marketing term around how you talk about this, expanding sort of disparate infrastructure. Engineers are sitting there going from system to system to machine to database to application. I mean, not even a conversation on Kubernetes yet. Yeah. And it's just, you know, every time you pull an engineer or a developer to go to a vault to pull something out, you're pulling them out for 10 minutes. Now, applications today have hundreds of systems, hundreds of microservices. I mean 30 of these a day and nine minutes, 270 minutes times 60. And they also >>Do the math. Well, there's not only that, there's also the breach from manual error. I forgot to change the password. What is that password? I left it open, I left it on >>Cognitive load. >>I mean, it's the manual piece. But even think about it, TR security has to be transparent and engineers are really smart people. And I've talked to a number of organizations who are like, yeah, we've tried to implement security solutions and they fail. Why? They're too disruptive. They're not transparent. And engineers will work their way around them. They'll write it down, they'll do a workaround, they'll backdoor it something. >>All right. So talk about how it works. But I, I mean, I'm getting the big picture here. I love this. Breaking down the silos, making engineers lives easier, more productive. Clearly the theme, everyone they want, they be gonna need. Whoever does that will win it all. How's it work? I mean, you deploying something, is it code, is it in line? It's, >>It's two binaries that you download and really it starts with the core being the identity native access proxy. Okay. So that proxy, I mean, if you look at like the zero trust principles, it all starts with a proxy. Everything connects into that proxy where all the access is gated, it's validated. And you know, from there we have an authorization engine. So we will be the single source of truth for all access across your entire infrastructure. So we bring machines, engineers, databases, applications, Kubernetes, Linux, Windows, we don't care. And we basically take that into a single architecture and single access platform that essentially secures your entire infrastructure. But more importantly, you can do audit. So for all of the organizations that are dealing with FedRAMP, pci, hipaa, we have a complete audit trail down to a YouTube style playback. >>Oh, interesting. We're we're California and ccpa. >>Oh, gdpr. >>Yeah, exactly. It, it, it's, it's a whole shebang. So I, I love, and John, maybe you've heard this term a lot more than I have, but identity native is relatively new to me as as a term. And I suspect you have a very distinct way of defining identity. How do you guys define identity internally? >>So identity is something that is cryptographically validated. It is something you have. So it's not enough. If you look at, you know, credentials today, everyone's like, Oh, I log into my computer, but that's my identity. No, it's not. Right. Those are attributes. Those are something that is secret for a period of time until you write it down. But I can't change my fingerprint. Right. And now I >>Was just >>Thinking of, well no, perfect case in point with touch ID on your meth there. Yeah. It's like when we deliver that cryptographically validated identity, we use these secure modules in like modern laptops or servers. Yeah. To store that identity so that even if you're sitting in front of your computer, you can't get to it. But more importantly, if somebody were to take that and try to be you and try to log in with your fingerprint, it's >>Not, I'm not gonna lie, I love the apple finger thing, you know, it's like, you know, space recognition, like it's really awesome. >>It save me a lot of time. I mean, even when you go through customs and they do the face scan now it actually knows who you are, which is pretty wild in the last time you wanna provide ones. But it just shifted over like maybe three months ago. Well, >>As long as no one chops your finger off like they do in the James Bond movies. >>I mean, we try and keep it a light and fluffy here on the queue, but you know, do a finger teams, we can talk about that >>Too. >>Gabby, I was thinking more minority report, >>But you >>Knows that's exactly what I, what I think of >>Hit that one outta bounds. So I gotta ask, because you said you're targeting engineers, not IT departments. What's, is that, because I in your mind it is now the engineers or what's the, is always the solution more >>Targeted? Well, if you really look at who's dealing with infrastructure on a day-to-day basis, those are DevOps individuals. Those are infrastructure teams, Those are site reliability engineering. And when it, they're the ones who are not only managing the infrastructure, but they're also dealing with the code on it and everything else. And for us, that is who is our primary customer and that's who's doing >>It. What's the biggest problem that you're solving in this use case? Because you guys are nailing it. What's the problem that your identity native solution solves? >>You know, right out of the backs we remove the number one source of breach. And that is taking passwords, secrets and, and keys off the board. That deals with most of the problem right there. But there are really two problems that organizations face. One is scaling. So as you scale, you get more secrets, you get more keys, you get all these things that is all increasing your attack vector in real time. Oh >>Yeah. Across teams locations. I can't even >>Take your pick. Yeah, it's across clouds, right? Any of it >>On-prem doesn't. >>Yeah. Any of it. We, and we allow you to scale, but do it securely and the security is transparent and your engineers will absolutely love it. What's the most important thing about this product Engineers. Absolutely. >>What are they saying? What are some of those examples? Anecdotally, pull boats out from engineering. >>You're too, we should have invent, we should have invented this ourselves. Or you know, we have run into a lot of customers who have tried to home brew this and they're like, you know, we spend an in nor not of hours on it >>And IT or they got legacy from like Microsoft or other solutions. >>Sure, yeah. Any, but a lot of 'em is just like, I wish I had done it myself. Or you know, this is what security should be. >>It makes so much sense and it gives that the team such a peace of mind. I mean, you never know when a breach is gonna come, especially >>It's peace of mind. But I think for engineers, a lot of times it deals with the security problem. Yeah. Takes it off the table so they can do their jobs. Yeah. With zero friction. Yeah. And you know, it's all about speed. It's all about velocity. You know, go fast, go fast, go fast. And that's what we enable >>Some of the benefits to them is they get to save time, focus more on, on task that they need to work on. >>Exactly. >>And get the >>Job done. And on top of it, they answer the audit and compliance mail every time it comes. >>Yeah. Why are people huge? Honestly, why are people doing this? Because, I mean, identity is just such an hard nut to crack. Everyone's got their silos, Vendors having clouds have 'em. Identity is the most fragmented thing on >>The planet. And it has been fragmented ever since my first RSA conference. >>I know. So will we ever get this do over? Is there a driver? Is there a market force? Is this the time? >>I think the move to modern applications and to multi-cloud is driving this because as those application stacks get more verticalized, you just, you cannot deal with the productivity >>Here. And of course the next big thing is super cloud and that's coming fast. Savannah, you know, You know that's Rocket. >>John is gonna be the thought leader and keyword leader of the word super cloud. >>Super Cloud is enabling super services as the cloud cast. Brian Gracely pointed out on his Sunday podcast of which if that happens, Super Cloud will enable super apps in a new architectural >>List. Please don't, and it'll be super, just don't. >>Okay. Right. So what are you guys up to next? What's the big hot spot for the company? What are you guys doing? What are you guys, What's the idea guys hiring? You put the plug in. >>You know, right now we are focused on delivering the best identity, native access platform that we can. And we will continue to support our customers that want to use Kubernetes, that want to use any different type of infrastructure. Whether that's Linux, Windows applications or databases. Wherever they are. >>Are, are your customers all of a similar DNA or are you >>No, they're all over the map. They range everything from tech companies to financial services to, you know, fractional property. >>You seem like someone everyone would need. >>Absolutely. >>And I'm not just saying that to be a really clean endorsement from the Cube, but >>If you were doing DevOps Yeah. And any type of forward-leaning shift, left engineering, you need us because we are basically making security as code a reality across your entire infrastructure. >>Love this. What about the team dna? Are you in a scale growth stage right now? What's going on? Absolutely. Sounds I was gonna say, but I feel like you would have >>To be. Yeah, we're doing, we're, we have a very positive outlook and you know, even though the economic time is what it is, we're doing very well meeting. >>How's the location? Where's the location of the headquarters now? With remote work is pretty much virtual. >>Probably. We're based in downtown Oakland, California. >>Woohoo. Bay area representing on this stage right now. >>Nice. Yeah, we have a beautiful office right in downtown Oakland and yeah, it's been great. Awesome. >>Love that. And are you hiring right now? I bet people might be. I feel like some of our cube watchers are here waiting to figure out their next big play. So love to hear that. Absolutely love to hear that. Besides Drew, not reply, if people want to join your team or say hello to you and tell you how brilliant you looked up here, or ask about your caddy days and maybe venture a guest to who that golfer may have been that you were CAD Inc. For, what are the best ways for them to get in touch with you? >>You can find me on LinkedIn. >>Great. Fantastic. John, anything else >>From you? Yeah, I mean, I just think security is paramount. This is just another example of where the innovation has to kind of break through without good identity, everything could cripple. Then you start getting into the silos and you can start getting into, you know, tracking it. You got error user errors, you got, you know, one of the biggest security risks. People just leave systems open, they don't even know it's there. So like, I mean this is just, just identity is the critical linchpin to, to solve for in security to me. And that's totally >>Agree. We even have a lot of customers who use us just to access basic cloud consoles. Yeah. >>So I was actually just gonna drive there a little bit because I think that, I'm curious, it feels like a solution for obviously complex systems and stacks, but given the utility and what sounds like an extreme ease of use, I would imagine people use this for day-to-day stuff within their, >>We have customers who use it to access their AWS consoles. We have customers who use it to access Grafana dashboards. You know, for, since we're sitting here at coupon accessing a Lens Rancher, all of the amazing DevOps tools that are out there. >>Well, I mean true. I mean, you think about all the reasons why people don't adopt this new federated approach or is because the IT guys did it and the world we're moving into, the developers are in charge. And so we're seeing the trend where developers are taking the DevOps and the data and the security teams are now starting to reset the guardrails. What's your >>Reaction to that? Well, you know, I would say that >>Over the top, >>Well I would say that you know, your DevOps teams and your infrastructure teams and your engineers, they are the new king makers. Yeah. Straight up. Full stop. >>You heard it first folks. >>And that's >>A headline right >>There. That is a headline. I mean, they are the new king makers and, but they are being forced to do it as securely as possible. And our job is really to make that as easy and as frictionless as possible. >>Awesome. >>And it sounds like you're absolutely nailing it. Drew, thank you so much for being on the show. Thanks for having today. This has been an absolute pleasure, John, as usual a joy. And thank all of you for tuning in to the Cube Live here at CU Con from Detroit, Michigan. We look forward to catching you for day two tomorrow.

>>Hi, we're back. We're watching, you're watching the cube coverage of Falcon 2022 live from the aria in Las Vegas, Dave Valante with Dave Nicholson and we, yes, folks, there are females in the cyber security industry. Amanda Adams is here. So the vice president of America Alliance at CrowdStrike. Thanks for coming on. >>Thank you so much for having me. >>We it's, it's fantastic to, to actually, as I was starting to wonder, but we >>Do have females in leadership. >>Wait, I'm just kidding. There are plenty of females here, but this cybersecurity industry in general, maybe if we have time, we can talk about that, but I wanna talk about the, the Alliance program, but before I do, yeah. You know, you, you got a nice career here at CrowdStrike, right? You've kind of seen the ascendancy, the rocket ship you've been on it for five years. Yep. So what's that been like? And if you had to put on the binoculars and look five years forward, what can you tell us in that 10 year span? Oh >>My goodness. What a journey it's been over the last five, six years. I've been with CrowdStrike almost six years and really starting with our first core group of partners and building out the alliances, seen obviously the transformation with our sales organization. And as we scaled, I think of our, of our technology. We started with, I think, two products at that time, we were focused on reinventing how our customers thought about NextGen AB but also endpoint detection response. From there, the evolution is really driving towards that cloud security platform, right? How our partners fit into that. And, and how we've evolved is it's not just resell. It's not just focusing on the margin and transactions. We really have focused on building the strategic relationships with our partners, but also our customers and fitting them in that better together story with that CrowdStrike platform. It's been the biggest shift. Yeah. >>And you've got that. The platform chops for that. It's just, I think you're up to 22 modules now. So you're not a point product. You guys make that, that, that point lot now in terms of the, the partners and the ecosystem, you know, it's, it's, it's good here. I mean, it's, this it's buzzing. I've said it's like service. I've said, number of times, it's like service. Now back in 2013, I was there now. They didn't have the down market, the SMB that you have that's right. And I think you you're gonna have an order. You got 20,000 customers. That's right. I predict CrowdStrike's gonna have 200,000. I, I'm not gonna predict when I need to think about that. But, but in thinking about the, the, the co your colleagues and the partners and the skill sets that have evolved, what's critical today. And, and, and what do you see as critical in the future? >>So from a skill set standpoint, if I'm a partner and engaging with CrowdStrike and our customers, if you think about, again, evolving away from just resell, we have eight routes to market. So while that may sound complicated, the way that I like to think about it is that we truly flex to our partners, go to market their business models of what works best for their organization, but also their customers. The way that they've changed, I think from a skillset standpoint is looking beyond just the technology from a platform, building a better together story with our tech Alliance partners or store, if thinking about the XDR Alliance, which we are focusing on, there's so much great value in bringing that to our customers from a skillset standpoint, beyond those services services, we've talked about every day. I know that this is gonna be a top topic for the week yesterday through our partner summit, George, our CEO, as well as Jim Cidel, that's really the opportunity as we expand in new modules. If you think about humo or log scale identity, and then cloud our partners play a critical role when it comes into the cloud migration deployment integration services, really, we're not gonna get bigger from a services organization. And that's where we need our partners to step in. >>Yeah. And, you know, we we've talked a lot about XDR yeah. Already in day one here. Yeah. With, with the X extending into other areas. That's right. I think that services be, would become even more critical at that point, you know, as you spread out into the, really the internet of things that's right. Especially all of the old things that are out there that maybe should be on the internet, but aren't yet. Yeah. But once they are security is important. So what are you doing in that arena from a services perspective to, to bolster that capability? Is it, is it, is it internally, or is it through partners generally? >>It's definitely, I think we look to our partners to extend beyond the core of what we do. We do endpoint really well, right? Our services is one of the best in the business. When you look at instant response, our proactive services, supporting our customers. If you think to XDR of integration, building out those connect air packs with our customers, building the alliances, we really do work with our partners to drive that successful outcome with our customers. But also too, I think about it with our tech alliances of building out the integration that takes a lot of effort and work. We have a great team internally, which will help guide those services to be, to be built. Right. You have to have support when you're building the integrations, which is great, but really from like a tech Alliance and store standpoint, looking to add use cases, add value to more store apps for our customers, that's where we're headed. Right. >>What about developers? Do you see that as a component of the ecosystem in the future? Yeah, >>Without a doubt. I mean, I think that as our partner program evolves right now working with our, our developers, I mean, there's different personas that we work with with our customer standpoint, but from a partner working with them to build our new codes, the integration that's gonna be pretty important. >>So we were, we sort of tongue in cheek at the beginning of this interview yeah. With women in tech. And it's a, it's a topic that, on the cube that we've been very passionate about since day one yep. On the cube. So how'd you get in to this business? H how did your, your career progress, how did you get to where you are? >>You know, I have been incredibly fortunate to have connections, and I think it's who, you know, and your network, not necessarily what, you know, to a certain extent, you have to be smart to make it long term. Right. You have to have integrity. Do what you're saying. You're gonna do. I first started at Cisco and I had a connection of, it was actually a parent of somebody I grew up with. And they're like, you would fit in very nicely to Cisco. And I started with their channel marketing team, learned a ton about the business, how to structure, how to support. And that was the first step into technology. If you would've asked me 20 years ago, what did I wanna do? I actually wanted to be a GM of an organization. And I was coming outta I come on, which is great, which I'm, it really is right up. >>If you knew me, you're like, that actually makes a lot of sense. But coming outta college, I had an opportunity. I was interviewing with the golden state warriors in California, and I was interviewing with Cisco and that I had two ops and I was living in San Jose at the time. The golden state warriors of course paid less. It was a better opportunity in sales, but it was obviously where I wanted to go from athletics. And I grew up in athletics, playing volleyball. Cisco paid me more, and it was in San Jose. And really the, the golden state warriors seemed that I was having that conversation. They said, one year community is gonna be awful. It's awful from San Jose to Oakland, but also too, like you have more money on the table. Go take that. And so I could have very much ended up in athletics, most likely in the back office, somewhere. Like I would love that. And then from there, I went from Cisco. I actually worked for a reseller for quite some time, looking at, or selling into Manhattan when I moved from California to Manhattan, went to tenable. And that was when I shifted really into channel management. I love relationships, getting snow people, building partnerships, seeing that long term, that's really where I thrive. And then from there came to CrowdStrike, which in itself has been an incredible journey. I bet. Yeah. >>Yeah. I think there's an important thread there to pull on. And that is, we, we put a lot of emphasis on stem, which people, some sometimes translate into one thing, writing code that's right. There are, but would you agree? There are many, many, many opportunities in tech that aren't just coding. >>Absolutely. >>And I think I, as a father of three daughters, it's, it's a message that I have shared with them. Yeah. They are not interested in the coding part of things, but still, they need to know that there are so many opportunities and, and it's always, sometimes it's happenstance in terms of finding the opportunity in your case, it was, you know, cosmic connection that's right. But, but that's, you know, that's something that we can foster is that idea that it's not just about the hardcore engineering and coding aspect, it's business >>That's right. So if, if there was one thing that I can walk away from today is I say that all the time, right? If you look at CrowdStrike in our mission, we really don't have a mission statement. We stop breaches every single day. When I come to work and I support our partners, I'm not super technical. I obviously know our technology and I, I enable and train our partners, but I'm not coding. Right. And I make an impact to our business, our partners, more importantly, our customers, every single day, we have folks that you can come from a marketing operations. There is legal, there's finance. I deal with folks all across the business that aren't super technical, but are making a huge impact. And I, I don't think that we talk about the opportunities outside of engineering with the broader groups. We talk about stem a lot, but within college, and I look to see like getting those early in career folks, either through an intern program could be sales, but too, if they don't like, like sales, then they shift into marketing or operations. It's a great way to get into the industry. >>Yeah. But I still think you gotta like tech to be in the tech business. Oh, you >>Do? Yeah. You do. I'm >>Not saying it's like deep down is like, not all of us, but a lot of us are kind of just, you know, well, at least you, >>At least you can't hate it. >>Right. Okay. But so women, 50% of the population, I think the stat is 17% in the technology. Yeah. Industry, maybe it's changed a little bit, but you know, 20% or, or less, why do you think that is? >>I, you know, I always go back to within technology, people hire from their network and people that they know, and usually your network are people that are very like-minded or similar to you. I have referred females into CrowdStrike. It's a priority of mine. I also have a circle that is also men, but also too, if you look at the folks that are hired into CrowdStrike, but also other technology companies, that's the first thing that I go to also too. I think it's a little bit intimidating. Right. I have a very strong personality and I'm very direct, but also too, like I can keep up with our industry when it comes to that stereotypes essentially. And some people maybe are introverted and they're not quite sure where they fit in. Right. Whether it's marketing operations, et cetera. So they, they're not sure of the opportunities or even aware of where to get started. You know what I mean? >>Yeah. I mean, I think there is a, a, a stereotype today, but I'm not sure why it's, is it unique to the, to the technology industry? No. Is it not? Right? It happens >>Thinking, I mean, there's so many industries where healthcare, >>Maybe not so much. Right. Because you know, >>You have nurses versus doctors. I feel like that is flipped. >>Yeah. That's true. Nurses versus doctors. Right. Well, I, I know a lot of women doctors though, but >>Yeah. That's kind of flipped. It's better. >>Yeah. Says >>Flipped over. Yeah. I think it's more women in medical school now, but than than men. But, >>And, and I do think in our industry, you know, when you look at companies like IBM, HPE, Cisco, Dell, and, and, and many others. Yeah. They are making a concerted effort for on round diversity. They typically have somebody who's in charge of diversity. They report, you know, maybe not directly to the CEO, but they certainly have a seat at the table. That's right. And you know, maybe you call it, oh, it's quotas. Maybe the, the old white guys feel, you know, a little slighted, whatever. It's like, nobody's crying for us. I mean, it's not like we got screwed. >>See, I know problema we can do this in Spanish. Oh, oh, >>Oh, you're not a old white guy. Sorry. We can do >>This in Spanish if you want. >>Okay. Here we go. So, no, but, but, but I, so I do think that, that the industry in general, I talked to John Chambers about this recently and he was like, look, we gotta do way better. And I don't disagree with that. But I think that, I think the industry is doing better, but I wonder if like a rocket ship company, like CrowdStrike who has so many other things going on, you know, maybe they gotta get you a certain size. I mean, you've reached escape velocity. You're doing obviously a lot of corporate, you know, good. Yeah. You know, and, and, and, and we just had earlier on we, you know, motor motor guides was very cool. Yeah. So maybe it's a maturity thing. Maybe these larger companies with you crowd size $40 billion market cap, but maybe the, the hundred plus billion dollar market cap companies. I don't know. I don't know. You guys got a bigger market cap than Dell. So >>I, I don't think it's necessarily related to market cap. I think it's the size of the organization of how many roles are open that we currently write. So we're at just over 6,000 employees. If you look at Cisco, how many thousands of employees they have there's >>Right. Maybe a hundred thousand employees. >>That's right. There's >>More opportunities. How many, what's a headcount of crowd strike >>Just over 6,000, >>6,000. So, okay. But >>If you think about the, the areas of opportunity for advancement, and we were talking about this earlier, when you look at early and career or entry level, it's actually quite, even right across the Americas of, we do have a great female population. And then as progression happens, that's where it, it tees off from a, a female in leadership. And we're doing, we're focusing on that, right? Under JC Herrera's leadership, as well as with George. One of the things that I always think is important though, is that you're mindful as, as the female within the organization and that you're out seeking somebody, who's not only a mentor, but is a direct champion for you when you're not in the room. Right. This is true of CrowdStrike. It's true of every organization. You're not gonna be aware of the opportunities as the roles are being created. And really, as the roles are being created, they probably have somebody in mind. Right. And so if you have somebody that's in that room says, you know what, Amanda Adams would be perfect for that. Let's go talk to her about it. You have to have somebody who's your champion. Yeah. >>There there's, there's, there's a saying that 80% of the most important moments in your life happen in your absence. Yeah. And that's exactly right. You know, when they're, when someone needs to be there to champion, you, >>Did that happen for you? >>Yes. I have a very strong champion. >>So I mean, I, my observation is if, if you are a woman in tech and you're in a senior leadership position, like you are, or you're a, you're a general manager or a P and L manager or a CEO, you have to be so incredibly talented because all things being equal, maybe it's changing somewhat in some of those companies I talked about, but for the last 30 years, all takes be equal. A, a, a woman is gonna lose out to a man who is as qualified. And, and I think that's maybe slowly changing. Maybe you agree with that, maybe you don't. And maybe that's, some people think that's unfair, but you know, think about people of color. Right. They, they, they, they grew up with less op opportunities for education. And this is just the statistics that's right. Right. So should society overcompensate for that? I personally think, yes, the, the answer is just, they should, there should still be some type of meritocracy that's right. You know, but society has a responsibility to, you know, rise up all ships. >>I think there's a couple ways that you can address that through Falcon funds, scholarship programs, absolutely. Looking at supporting folks that are coming outta school, our internship program, providing those opportunities, but then just being mindful right. Of whether or not you publish the stats or not. We do have somebody who's responsible for D I, within CrowdStrike. They are looking at that and at least taking that step to understand what can we do to support the advancement across minorities. But also women is really, really important. >>Did you not have a good educational opportunity when you were growing up where you're like you had to me? Yeah, no, seriously, >>No. Seriously. I went to pretty scary schools. Right. >>Okay. So you could have gone down a really bad path. >>I, a lot of people that I grew up with went down really, really bad paths. I think the inflection point at, at least for me what the inflection point was becoming aware of this entire universe. Yeah. I was, I was headed down a path where I wasn't aware that any of this existed, when I got out of college, they were advertising in the newspaper for Cisco sales engineers, $150,000 a year. We will train. I'm a smart guy. I had no idea what that meant. Right. I could have easily gone and gotten one of those jobs. It was seven or eight years before I intersected with the tech world again. And so, you know, kind of parallel with your experience with you had someone randomly, it's like, you'd be great at Cisco. Yeah. But if, if you're not around that, and so you take people in different communities who are just, this might as well be a different planet. Yes. Yeah. The idea of eating in a restaurant where someone is serving you, food is uncomfortable, right? The idea of checking into a hotel, the idea of flying somewhere on an airplane, we talk about imposter syndrome. That's right. There are deep seated discomfort levels that people have because they just, this is completely foreign, but >>You're saying you could have foreign, you could have gone down a path where selling drugs or jacking cars was, was, was lucrative. >>I had, I had, yeah. I mean, we're getting, we're getting like deep into societal things. I was, I was very lucky. My parents were very, very young, but they're still together to this day. I had loving parents. We were very, very poor. We were surrounded by really, really, really bad stuff. So. >>Okay. So, so, okay. So this, >>I, I don't, I don't compare my situation to others. >>White woman. That's I guess this is my point. Yeah. The dynamic is different than, than a kid who grew up in the inner city. Yes. Right. And, and, and they're both important to address, but yeah. I think you gotta address them in different ways. >>Yes. But if they're, but if they're both completely ignorant of this, >>They don't know it. So it's lack of >>A, they'll never be here. >>You >>Never be here. And it's such a huge, this is such a huge difference from the rest of the world and from the rest, from the rest of our economy. >>So what would you tell a young girl? My daughters, aren't interested in tech. They want to go into fashion or healthcare, whatever Dave's daughters maybe would be a young girl, preteen, maybe teen interested in, not sure which path, why tech, what would advice would you give? >>I think just understanding what you enjoy about life, right? Like which skills are you great at? What characteristics about roles and not really focusing on a specific product. Definitely not cybersecurity versus like the broader network. I mean, literally what do you enjoy doing? And then the roles of, you know, from the skillset that's needed, whether that be marketing, and then you can start to dive into, do I wanna support marketing for a corporate environment for retail, for technology like that will come and follow your passion, which I know is so easy to say, right? But if you're passionate about certain things, I love relationships. I think that holding myself from integrity standpoint, leading with integrity, but building strong relationships on trust, that's something I take really pride in and what I get enjoyment with. It's >>Obviously your superpower. >>It, >>It is. >>But >>Then it will go back to OST too, just being authentic in the process of building those relationships, being direct to the transparency of understanding, like again, knowing what you're good at and then where you can fit into an organization, awareness of technology opportunities, I think will all lend that to. But I also wouldn't worry, like when I was 17 year old, I, I thought I would be playing volleyball in college and then going to work for a professional sports team. You know, life works out very differently. Yeah. >>Right. And then, and for those of you out there, so I love that. Thank you for that great interview. Really appreciate letting us go far field for those of you might say, well, I don't know, man. I don't know what my passion is. I'll give you a line from my daughter, Alicia, you don't learn a lot for your kids. She said, well, if you don't know what your passion is, follow your curiosity. That's great. There you go. Amanda Adams. Thanks so much. It was great to have you on. Okay. Thank you. Keep it right there. We're back with George Kurtz. We're to the short break. Dave ante, Dave Nicholson. You watching the cube from Falcon 22 in Las Vegas.

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from the cube and ETR, this is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Organizations have considerable room to improve their performance without making expensive changes to their talent, their structure, or their fundamental business model. You don't need a slew of consultants to tell you what to do. You already know. What you need is to immediately ratchet up expectations, energy, urgency, and intensity. You have to fight mediocrity every step of the way. Amp it up and the results will follow. This is the fundamental premise of a hard-hitting new book written by Frank Slootman, CEO of Snowflake, and published earlier this year. It's called "Amp It Up, Leading for Hypergrowth "by Raising Expectations, Increasing Urgency, "and Elevating Intensity." Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights, powered by ETR. At Snowflake Summit last month, I was asked to interview Frank on stage about his new book. I've read it several times. And if you haven't read it, you should. Even if you have read it, in this Breaking Analysis, we'll dig deeper into the book and share some clarifying insights and nuances directly from Slootman himself from my one-on-one conversation with him. My first question to Slootman was why do you write this book? Okay, it's kind of a common throwaway question. And how the heck did you find time to do it? It's fairly well-known that a few years ago, Slootman put up a post on LinkedIn with the title Amp It Up. It generated so much buzz and so many requests for Frank's time that he decided that the best way to efficiently scale and share his thoughts on how to create high-performing companies and organizations was to publish a book. Now, he wrote the book during the pandemic. And I joked that they must not have Netflix in Montana where he resides. In a pretty funny moment, he said that writing the book was easier than promoting it. Take a listen. >> Denise, our CMO, you know, she just made sure that this process wasn't going to. It was more work for me to promote this book with all these damn podcasts and other crap, than actually writing the book, you know. And after a while, I was like I'm not doing another podcast. >> Now, the book gives a lot of interesting background information on Slootman's career and what he learned at various companies that he led and participated in. Now, I'm not going to go into most of that today, which is why you should read the book yourself. But Slootman, he's become somewhat of a business hero to many people, myself included. Leaders like Frank, Scott McNealy, Jayshree Ullal, and my old boss, Pat McGovern at IDG, have inspired me over the years. And each has applied his or her own approach to building cultures and companies. Now, when Slootman first took over the reins at Snowflake, I published a Breaking Analysis talking about Snowflake and what we could expect from the company now that Slootman and CFO Mike Scarpelli were back together. In that post, buried toward the end, I referenced the playbook that Frank used at Data Domain and ServiceNow, two companies that I followed quite closely as an analyst, and how it would be applied at Snowflake, that playbook if you will. Frank reached out to me afterwards and said something to the effect of, "I don't use playbooks. "I am a situational leader. "Playbooks, you know, they work in football games. "But in the military, they teach you "situational leadership." Pretty interesting learning moment for me. So I asked Frank on the stage about this. Here's what he said. >> The older you get, the more experience that you have, the more you become a prisoner of your own background because you sort of think in terms of what you know as opposed to, you know, getting outside of what you know and trying to sort of look at things like a five-year-old that has never seen this before. And then how would you, you know, deal with it? And I really try to force myself into I've never seen this before and how do I think about it? Because at least they're very different, you know, interpretations. And be open-minded, just really avoid that rinse and repeat mentality. And you know, I've brought people in from who have worked with me before. Some of them come with me from company to company. And they were falling prey to, you know, rinse and repeat. I would just literally go like that's not what we want. >> So think about that for a moment. I mean, imagine coming in to lead a new company and forcing yourself and your people to forget what they know that works and has worked in the past, put that aside and assess the current situation with an open mind, essentially start over. Now, that doesn't mean you don't apply what has worked in the past. Slootman talked to me about bringing back Scarpelli and the synergistic relationship that they have and how they build cultures and the no BS and hard truth mentality they bring to companies. But he bristles when people ask him, "What type of CEO are you?" He says, "Do we have to put a label on it? "It really depends on the situation." Now, one of the other really hard-hitting parts of the book was the way Frank deals with who to keep and who to let go. He uses the Volkswagen tagline of drivers wanted. He says in his book, in companies there are passengers and there are drivers, and we want drivers. He said, "You have to figure out really quickly "who the drivers are and basically throw the wrong people "off the bus, keep the right people, bring in new people "that fit the culture and put them "in the right seats on the bus." Now, these are not easy decisions to make. But as it pertains to getting rid of people, I'm reminded of the movie "Moneyball." Art Howe, the manager of the Oakland As, he refused to play Scott Hatteberg at first base. So the GM, Billy Bean played by Brad Pitt says to Peter Brand who was played by Jonah Hill, "You have to fire Carlos Pena." Don't learn how to fire people. Billy Bean says, "Just keep it quick. "Tell him he's been traded and that's it." So I asked Frank, "Okay, I get it. "Like the movie, when you have the wrong person "on the bus, you just have to make the decision, "be straightforward, and do it." But I asked him, "What if you're on the fence? "What if you're not completely sure if this person "is a driver or a passenger, if he or she "should be on the bus or not on the bus? "How do you handle that?" Listen to what he said. >> I have a very simple way to break ties. And when there's doubt, there's no doubt, okay? >> When there's doubt, there's no doubt. Slootman's philosophy is you have to be emphatic and have high conviction. You know, back to the baseball analogy, if you're thinking about taking the pitcher out of the game, take 'em out. Confrontation is the single hardest thing in business according to Slootman but you have to be intellectually honest and do what's best for the organization, period. Okay, so wow, that may sound harsh but that's how Slootman approaches it, very Belichickian if you will. But how can you amp it up on a daily basis? What's the approach that Slootman takes? We got into this conversation with a discussion about MBOs, management by objective. Slootman in his book says he's killed MBOs at every company he's led. And I asked him to explain why. His rationale was that individual MBOs invariably end up in a discussion about relief of the MBO if the person is not hitting his or her targets. And that detracts from the organizational alignment. He said at Snowflake everyone gets paid the same way, from the execs on down. It's a key way he creates focus and energy in an organization, by creating alignment, urgency, and putting more resources into the most important things. This is especially hard, Slootman says, as the organization gets bigger. But if you do approach it this way, everything gets easier. The cadence changes, the tempo accelerates, and it works. Now, and to emphasize that point, he said the following. Play the clip. >> Every meeting that you have, every email, every encounter in the hallway, whatever it is, is an opportunity to amp things up. That's why I use that title. But do you take that opportunity? >> And according to Slootman, if you don't take that opportunity, if you're not in the moment, amping it up, then you're thinking about your golf game or the tennis match that's going on this weekend or being out on your boat. And to the point, this approach is not for everyone. You're either built for it or you're not. But if you can bring people into the organization that can handle this type of dynamic, it creates energy. It becomes fun. Everything moves faster. The conversations are exciting. They're inspiring. And it becomes addictive. Now let's talk about priorities. I said to Frank that for me anyway, his book was an uncomfortable read. And he was somewhat surprised by that. "Really," he said. I said, "Yeah. "I mean, it was an easy read but uncomfortable "because over my career, I've managed thousands of people, "not tens of thousands but thousands, "enough to have to take this stuff very seriously." And I found myself throughout the book, oh, you know, on the one hand saying to myself, "Oh, I got that right, good job, Dave." And then other times, I was thinking to myself, "Oh wow, I probably need to rethink that. "I need to amp it up on that front." And the point is to Frank's leadership philosophy, there's no one correct way to approach all situations. You have to figure it out for yourself. But the one thing in the book that I found the hardest was Slootman challenged the reader. If you had to drop everything and focus on one thing, just one thing, for the rest of the year, what would that one thing be? Think about that for a moment. Were you able to come up with that one thing? What would happen to all the other things on your priority list? Are they all necessary? If so, how would you delegate those? Do you have someone in your organization who can take those off your plate? What would happen if you only focused on that one thing? These are hard questions. But Slootman really forces you to think about them and do that mental exercise. Look at Frank's body language in this screenshot. Imagine going into a management meeting with Frank and being prepared to share all the things you're working on that you're so proud of and all the priorities you have for the coming year. Listen to Frank in this clip and tell me it doesn't really make you think. >> I've been in, you know, on other boards and stuff. And I got a PowerPoint back from the CEO and there's like 15 things. They're our priorities for the year. I'm like you got 15, you got none, right? It's like you just can't decide, you know, what's important. So I'll tell you everything because I just can't figure out. And the thing is it's very hard to just say one thing. But it's really the mental exercise that matters. >> Going through that mental exercise is really important according to Slootman. Let's have a conversation about what really matters at this point in time. Why does it need to happen? And does it take priority over other things? Slootman says you have to pull apart the hairball and drive extraordinary clarity. You could be wrong, he says. And he admits he's been wrong on many things before. He, like everyone, is fearful of being wrong. But if you don't have the conversation according to Slootman, you're already defeated. And one of the most important things Slootman emphasizes in the book is execution. He said that's one of the reasons he wrote "Amp It Up." In our discussion, he referenced Pat Gelsinger, his former boss, who bought Data Domain when he was working for Joe Tucci at EMC. Listen to Frank describe the interaction with Gelsinger. >> Well, one of my prior bosses, you know, Pat Gelsinger, when they acquired Data Domain through EMC, Pat was CEO of Intel. And he quoted Andy Grove as saying, 'cause he was Intel for a long time when he was younger man. And he said no strategy is better than its execution, which if I find one of the most brilliant things. >> Now, before you go changing your strategy, says Slootman, you have to eliminate execution as a potential point of failure. All too often, he says, Silicon Valley wants to change strategy without really understanding whether the execution is right. All too often companies don't consider that maybe the product isn't that great. They will frequently, for example, make a change to sales leadership without questioning whether or not there's a product fit. According to Slootman, you have to drive hardcore intellectual honesty. And as uncomfortable as that may be, it's incredibly important and powerful. Okay, one of the other contrarian points in the book was whether or not to have a customer success department. Slootman says this became really fashionable in Silicon Valley with the SaaS craze. Everyone was following and pattern matching the lead of salesforce.com. He says he's eliminated the customer service department at every company he's led which had a customer success department. Listen to Frank Slootman in his own words talk about the customer success department. >> I view the whole company as a customer success function. Okay, I'm customer success, you know. I said it in my presentation yesterday. We're a customer-first organization. I don't need a department. >> Now, he went on to say that sales owns the commercial relationship with the customer. Engineering owns the technical relationship. And oh, by the way, he always puts support inside of the engineering department because engineering has to back up support. And rather than having a separate department for customer success, he focuses on making sure that the existing departments are functioning properly. Slootman also has always been big on net promoter score, NPS. And Snowflake's is very high at 72. And according to Slootman, it's not just the product. It's the people that drive that type of loyalty. Now, Slootman stresses amping up the big things and even the little things too. He told a story about someone who came into his office to ask his opinion about a tee shirt. And he turned it around on her and said, "Well, what do you think?" And she said, "Well, it's okay." So Frank made the point by flipping the situation. Why are you coming to me with something that's just okay? If we're going to do something, let's do it. Let's do it all out. Let's do it right and get excited about it, not just check the box and get something off your desk. Amp it up, all aspects of our business. Listen to Slootman talk about Steve Jobs and the relevance of demanding excellence and shunning mediocrity. >> He was incredibly intolerant of anything that he didn't think of as great. You know, he was immediately done with it and with the person. You know, I'm not that aggressive, you know, in that way. I'm a little bit nicer, you know, about it. But I still, you know, I don't want to give into expediency and mediocrity. I just don't, I'm just going to fight it, you know, every step of the way. >> Now, that story was about a little thing like some swag. But Slootman talked about some big things too. And one of the major ways Snowflake was making big, sweeping changes to amp up its business was reorganizing its go-to-market around industries like financial services, media, and healthcare. Here's some ETR data that shows Snowflake's net score or spending momentum for key industry segments over time. The red dotted line at 40% is an indicator of highly elevated spending momentum. And you can see for the key areas shown, Snowflake is well above that level. And we cut this data where responses were greater, the response numbers were greater than 15. So not huge ends but large enough to have meaning. Most were in the 20s. Now, it's relatively uncommon to see a company that's having the success of Snowflake make this kind of non-trivial change in the middle of steep S-curve growth. Why did they make this move? Well, I think it's because Snowflake realizes that its data cloud is going to increasingly have industry diversity and unique value by industry, that ecosystems and data marketplaces are forming around industries. So the more industry affinity Snowflake can create, the stronger its moat will be. It also aligns with how the largest and most prominent global system integrators, global SIs, go to market. This is important because as companies are transforming, they are radically changing their data architecture, how they think about data, how they approach data as a competitive advantage, and they're looking at data as specifically a monetization opportunity. So having industry expertise and knowledge and aligning with those customer objectives is going to serve Snowflake and its ecosystems well in my view. Slootman even said he joined the board of Instacart not because he needed another board seat but because he wanted to get out of his comfort zone and expose himself to other industries as a way to learn. So look, we're just barely scratching the surface of Slootman's book and I've pulled some highlights from our conversation. There's so much more that I can share just even from our conversation. And I will as the opportunity arises. But for now, I'll just give you the kind of bumper sticker of "Amp It Up." Raise your standards by taking every opportunity, every interaction, to increase your intensity. Get your people aligned and moving in the same direction. If it's the wrong direction, figure it out and course correct quickly. Prioritize and sharpen your focus on things that will really make a difference. If you do these things and increase the urgency in your organization, you'll naturally pick up the pace and accelerate your company. Do these things and you'll be able to transform, better identify adjacent opportunities and go attack them, and create a lasting and meaningful experience for your employees, customers, and partners. Okay, that's it for today. Thanks for watching. And thank you to Alex Myerson who's on production and he manages the podcast for Breaking Analysis. Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on social and in our newsletters. And Rob Hove is our EIC over at Silicon Angle who does some wonderful and tremendous editing. Thank you all. Remember, all these episodes are available as podcasts. Wherever you listen, just search Breaking Analysis podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. And you can email me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com or DM me @dvellante or comment on my LinkedIn posts. And please do check out etr.ai for the best survey data in enterprise tech. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching. Be well. And we'll see you next time on Breaking Analysis. (upbeat music)

(light music playing) >> Welcome back to VEEAMON 2022 in Las Vegas. We're at the Aria. This is theCUBE and we're covering two days of VEEAMON. We've done a number of VEEAMONs before, we did Miami, we did New Orleans, we did Chicago and we're, we're happy to be back live after two years of virtual VEEAMONs. I'm Dave Vellante. My co-host is David Nicholson. Eric Herzog is here. You think he's, Eric's been on theCUBE, I think more than any other guest, including Pat Gelsinger, who at one point was the number one guest. Eric Herzog, CMO of INFINIDAT great to see you again. >> Great, Dave, thank you. Love to be on theCUBE. And of course notice my Hawaiian shirt, except I now am supporting an INFINIDAT badge on it. (Dave laughs) Look at that. >> Is that part of the shirt or is that a clip-on? >> Ah, you know, one of those clip-ons but you know, it looks good. Looks good. >> Hey man, what are you doing at VEEAMON? I mean, you guys started this journey into data protection several years ago. I remember we were actually at one of their competitors' events when you first released it, but tell us what's going on with Veeam. >> So we do a ton of stuff with Veeam. We do custom integration. We got some integration on the snapshotting side, but we do everything and we have a purpose built backup appliance known as InfiniGuard. It works with Veeam. We also actually have some customers who use our regular primary storage device as a backup target. The InfiniGuard product will do the data reduction, the dedupe compression, et cetera. The standard product does not, it's just a standard high performance array. We will compress the data, but we have customers that do it either way. We have a couple customers that started with the InfiniBox and then transitioned to the InfiniGuard, realizing that why would you put it on regular storage? Why not go to something that's customized for it? So we do that. We do stuff in the field with them. We've been at all the VEEAMONs since the, since like, I think the second one was the first one we came to. We're doing the virtual one as well as the live one. So we've got a little booth inside, but we're also doing the virtual one today as well. So really strong work with Veeam, particularly at the field level with the sales guys and in the channel. >> So when INFINIDAT does something, you guys go hardcore, high end, fast recovery, you just, you know, reliable, that's kind of your brand. Do you see this movement into data protection as kind of an adjacency to your existing markets? Is it a land and expand strategy? Can you kind of explain the strategy there. >> Ah, so it's actually for us a little bit of a hybrid. So we have several accounts that started with InfiniBox and now have gone with the InfiniGuard. So they start with primary storage and go with secondary storage/modern data protection. But we also have, in fact, we just got a large PO from a Fortune 50, who was buying the InfiniGuard first and now is buying our InfiniBox. >> Both ways. Okay. >> All flash array. And, but they started with backup first and then moved to, so we've got them moving both directions. And of course, now that we have a full portfolio, our original product, the InfiniBox, which was a hybrid array, outperformed probably 80 to 85% of the all flash arrays, 'cause the way we use DRAM. And what's so known as our mural cash technology. So we could do very well, but there is about, you know, 15, 20% of the workloads we could not outperform the competition. So then we had an all flash array and purpose built backup. So we can do, you know, what I'll say is standard enterprise storage, high performance enterprise storage. And then of course, modern data protection with our partnerships such as what we do with Veeam and we've incorporated across the entire portfolio, intense cyber resilience technology. >> Why does the world, Eric, need another purpose built backup appliance? What do you guys bring that is filling a gap in the marketplace? >> Well, the first thing we brought was much higher performance. So when you look at the other purpose built backup appliances, it's been about our ability to have incredibly high performance. The second area has been CapEx and OpEx reduction. So for example, we have a cloud service provider who happens to be in South Africa. They had 14 purpose built backup appliances from someone else, seven in one data center and seven in another. Now they have two InfiniGuards, one in each data center handling all of their backup. You know, they're selling backup as a service. They happen to be using Veeam as well as one other backup company. So if you're the cloud provider from their perspective, they just dramatically reduce their CapEx and OpEx. And of course they've made it easier for them. So that's been a good story for us, that ability to consolidation, whether it be on primary storage or secondary storage. We have a very strong play with cloud providers, particularly those meeting them in small that have to compete with the hyperscalers right. They don't have the engineering of Amazon or Google, right? They can't compete with what the Azure guys have got, but because the way both the InfiniGuard and the InfiniBox work, they could dramatically consolidate workloads. We probably got 30 or 40 midsize and actually several members of the top 10 telcos use us. And when they do their clouds, both their internal cloud, but actually the clouds that are actually running the transmissions and the traffic, it actually runs on InfiniBox. One of them has close to 200 petabytes of InfiniBox and InfiniBox, all flash technology running one of the largest telcos on the planet in a cloud configuration. So all that's been very powerful for us in driving revenue. >> So phrases of the week have been air gap, logical air gap, immutable. Where does InfiniGuard fit into that universe? And what's the profile of the customer that's going to choose InfiniGuard as the target where they're immutable, Write Once Read Many, data is going to live. >> So we did, we announced our InfiniSafe technology first on the InfiniGuard, which actually earlier this year. So we have what I call the four legs of the stool of cyber resilience. One is immutable snapshots, but that's only part of it. Second is logical air gapping, and we can do both local and remote and we can provide and combine local with remote. So for example, what that air gap does is separate the management plane from the actual data plane. Okay. So in this case, the Veeam data backup sets. So the management cannot touch that immutable, can't change it, can't delete it. can't edit it. So management is separated once you start and say, I want to do an immutable snap of two petabytes of Veeam backup dataset. Then we just do that. And the air gap does it, but then you could take the local air gap because as you know, from inception to the end of an attack can be close to 300 days, which means there could be a fire. There could be a tornado, there could be a hurricane, there could be an earthquake. And in the primary data center, So you might as well have that air gap just as you would do- do a remote for disaster recovery and business continuity. Then we have the ability to create a fenced forensic environment to evaluate those backup data sets. And we can do that actually on the same device. That is the purpose built backup appliance. So when you look at the architectural, these are public from our competitors, including the guys that are in sort of Hopkinton/Austin, Texas. You can see that they show a minimum of two physical devices. And in many cases, a third, we can do that with one. So not only do we get the fence forensic environment, just like they do, but we do it with reduction, both CapEx and OpEx. Purpose built backup is very high performance. And then the last thing is our ability to recover. So some people talk about rapid recovery, I would say, they dunno what they're talking about. So when we launched the InfiniGuard with InfiniSafe, we did a live demo, 1.5 petabytes, a Veeam backup dataset. We recovered it in 12 minutes. So once you've identified and that's on the InfiniGuard. On the InfiniBox, once you've identified a good copy of data to do the recovery where you're free of malware ransomware, we can do the recovery in three to five seconds. >> Okay. >> So really, really quick. Actually want to double click on something because people talk about immutable copies, immutable snapshots in particular, what have the actual advances been? I mean, is this simply a setting that maybe we didn't set for retention at some time in the past, or if you had to engineer something net new into a system so to provide that logical air gap. >> So what's net new is the air gapping part. Immutable snapshots have been around, you know, before we were on screen, you talked about WORM, Write Once Read Many. Well, since I'm almost 70 years old, I actually know what that means. When you're 30 or 40 or 50, you probably don't even know what a WORM is. Okay. And the real use of immutable snapshots, it was to replace WORM which was an optical technology. And what was the primary usage? Regulatory and compliance, healthcare, finance and publicly traded companies that were worried about. The SEC or the EU or the Japanese finance ministry coming down on them because they're out of compliance and regulatory. That was the original use of immutable snap. Then people were, well, wait a second. Malware ransomware could attack me. And if I got something that's not changeable, that makes it tougher. So the real magic of immutability was now creating the air gap part. Immutability has been around, I'd say 25 years. I mean, WORMs sort of died back when I was at Mac store the first time. So that was 1990-ish is when WORMs sort of fell away. And there have been immutable snapshots from most of the major storage vendors, as well as a lot of the small vendors ever since they came out, it's kind of like a checkbox item because again, regulatory and compliance, you're going to sell to healthcare, finance, public trade. If you don't have the immutable snapshot, then they don't have their compliance and regulatory for SEC or tax purposes, right? With they ever end up in an audit, you got to produce data. And no one's using a WORM drive anymore to my knowledge. >> I remember the first storage conference I ever went to was in Monterey. It had me in the early 1980s, 84 maybe. And it was a optical disc drive conference. The Jim Porter of optical. >> Yep. (laughs) >> I forget what the guy's name was. And I remember somebody coming up to me, I think it was like Bob Payton rest his soul, super smart strategy guy said, this is never going to happen because of the cost and that's what it was. And now you've got that capability on flash, you know, hard disk, et cetera. >> Right. >> So the four pillars, immutability, the air gap, both local and remote, the fence forensics and the recovery speed. Right? >> Right. Pick up is one thing. Recovery is everything. Those are the four pillars, right? >> Those are the four things. >> And your contention is that those four things together differentiate you from the competition. You mentioned, you know, the big competition, but how unique is this in the marketplace, those capabilities and how difficult is it to replicate? >> So first of all, if someone really puts their engineering hat to it, it's not that hard to replicate. It takes a while. Particularly if you're doing an enterprise, for example, our solutions all have a hundred percent availability guarantee. That's hard to do. Most guys have seven nines. >> That's hard. >> We really will guarantee a hundred percent availability. We offer an SLA that's included when you buy. We don't charge extra for it. It's like if you want it, like you just get it. Second thing is really making sure on the recovery side is the hardest part, particularly on a purpose built backup appliance. So when you look at other people and you delve into their public material, press releases, white paper, support documentation. No one's talking about. Yeah, we can take a 1.5 petabyte Veeam backup data set and make it available in 12 minutes and 12 seconds, which was the exact time that we did on our live demo when we launched the product in February of 2022. No one's talking that. On primary storage, you're hearing some of the vendors such as my old employer that also who, also starts with an "I", talk about a recovery time of two to three hours once you have a known good copy. On primary storage, once we have a known good copy, we're talking three to five seconds for that copy to be available. So that's just sort of the power of the snapshot technology, how we manage our metadata and what we've done, which previous to cyber resiliency, we were known for our replication capability and our snapshot capability from an enterprise class data store. That's what people said. INFINIDAT really knows how to do the replication snapshot. I remember our founder was one of the technical founders of EMC for a product known as the Symmetric, which then became the DMAX, the VMAX and is now is the PowerMax. That was invented by the guy who founded INFINIDAT. So that team has the real chops at enterprise high-end storage to the global fortune 2000. And what are the key feature checkbox items they need that's in both the InfiniBox and also in the InfiniGuard. >> So the business case for cyber resiliency is changing. As Dave said, we've had a big dose last several months, you know, couple years actually, of the importance of cyber resiliency, given all the ransomware tax, et cetera. But it sounds like the business case is shifting really focused on avoiding that risk, avoiding that downtime time versus the cost. The cost is always important. I mean, you got a consolidation play here, right? >> Yeah, yeah. >> Dedupe, does dedupe come into play? >> So on the InfiniGuard we do both dedupe and compression. On the InfiniBox we only do compression. So we do have data reduction. It depends on which product you're using from a Veeam perspective. Most of that now is with the InfiniGuard. So you get the block level dedupe and you get compression. And if you can do both, depending on the data set, we do both. >> How does that affect recovery time? >> Yeah, good question. >> So it doesn't affect recovery times. >> Explain why. >> So first of all, when you're doing a backup data set, the final final recovery, you recovered the backup data set, whether it's Veeam or one of their competitors, you actually make it available to the backup administrator to do a full restore of a backup data set. Okay. So in that case, we get it ready and expose it to the Veeam admin or some other backup admin. And then they launch the Veeam software or the other software and do a restore. Okay. So it's really a two step process on the secondary storage model and actually three. First identifying a known good backup copy. Second then we recover, which is again 12, 13 minutes. And then the backup admin's got to do a, you know, a restore of the backup 'cause it's backup data set in the format of backup, which is different from every backup vendor. So we support that. We get it ready to go. And then whether it's a Veeam backup administrator and quite honestly, from our perspective, most of our customers in the global fortune 2000, 25% of the fortune 50 use INIFINIDAT products. 25% and we're a tiny company. So we must have some magic fairy dust that appeals to the biggest companies on the planet. But most of our customers in that area and actually say probably in the fortune 500 actually use two to three different backup packages. So we can support all those on a single InfiniGuard or multiples depending on how big their backup data sets. Our biggest InfiniGuard is 50 petabytes counting the data reduction technology. So we get that ready. On the InfiniBox, the recovery really is, you know, a couple of seconds and in that case, it's primary data in block format. So we just make that available. So on the InfiniBox, the recovery is once, well two. Identifying a known good copy, first step, then just doing recovery and it's available 'cause it's blocked data. >> And that recovery doesn't include movement of a whole bunch of data. It's essentially realignment of pointers to where the good data is. >> Right. >> Now in the InfiniBox as well as in InfiniGuard. >> No, it would be, So in the case of that, in the case of the InfiniGuard, it's a full recovery of a backup data set. >> Okay. >> So the backup software just launches and it sees, >> Okay. >> your backup one of Veeam and just starts doing a restore with the Veeam restoration technology. Okay? >> Okay. >> In the case of the block, as long as the physical InfiniBox, if that was the primary storage and then filter box is not damaged when you make it available, it's available right away to the apps. Now, if you had an issue with the app side or the physical server side, and now you're pointing new apps and you had to reload stuff on that side, you have to point it at that InfiniBox which has the data. And then you got to wait for the servers and the SAP or Oracle or Mongo, Cassandra to recognize, oh, this is my primary storage. So it depends on the physical configuration on the server side and the application perspective, how bad were the apps damaged? So let's take malware. Malware is even worse because you either destroying data or messing, playing with the app so that the app is now corrupted as well as the data is corrupted. So then it's going to take longer the block data's ready, the SAP workload. And if the SAP somehow was compromised, which is a malware thing, not a ransomware thing, they got to reload a good copy of SAP before it can see the data 'cause the malware attacked the application as well as the data. Ransomware doesn't do that. It just holds it for ransom and it encrypts. >> So this is exactly what we're talking about. When we talk about operational recovery and automation, Eric is addressing the reality that it doesn't just end at the line above some arbitrary storage box, you know, reaching up real recovery, reaches up into the application space and it's complicated. >> That's when you're actually recovered. >> Right. >> When the application- >> Well, think of it like a disaster. >> Okay. >> Yes, right. >> I'll knock on woods since I was born and still live in California. Dave too. Let's assume there's a massive earthquake in the bay area in LA. >> Let's not. >> Okay. Let's yes, but hypothetically and the data center's cat five. It doesn't matter what they're, they're all toast. Okay. Couple weeks later it's modern. You know, people figure out what to do and certain buildings don't fall down 'cause of the way earthquake standards are in California now. So there's data available. They move into temporary space. Okay. Data's sitting there in the Colorado data center and they could do a restore. Well, they can't do a restore. How many service did they need? Had they reloaded all of the application software to do a restoration. What happened to the people? If no one got injured, like in the 1989 earthquake in California, very few people got injured yet cost billions of dollars. But everyone was watching this San Francisco giants played in Oakland, >> I remember >> so no one was on the road. >> Al Michael's. >> Epic moment. >> Imagine it's in the middle of commute time in LA and San Francisco, hundreds of thousands of people. What if it's your data center team? Right? So there's a whole bunch around disaster recovery and business country that have nothing to do with the storage, the people, what your process. So I would argue that malware ransomware is a disaster and it's exactly the same thing. You know, you got the known good copy. You've got okay. You're sure that the SAP and Oracle, especially on the malware side, weren't compromised. On the ransomware side, you don't have to worry about that. And those things, you got to take a look at just as if it, I would argue malware and ransomware is a disaster and you need to have a process just like you would. If there was an earthquake, a fire or a flood in the data center, you need a similar process. That's slightly different, but the same thing, servers, people, software, the data itself. And when you have that all mapped out, that's how you do successful malware ransomeware recovery. It's a different type of disaster. >> It's absolutely a disaster. It comes down to business continuity and be able to transact business with as little disruption as possible. We heard today from the keynotes and then Jason Buffington came on about the preponderance of ransomware. Okay. We know that. But then the interesting stat was the percentage of customers that paid the ransom about a third weren't able to recover. And so 'cause you kind of had this feeling of all right, well, you know, see it on, you know, CNBC, should you pay the ransom or not? You know, pay the ransom. Okay. You'll get back. But no, it's not the case. You won't necessarily get back. So, you know, Veeam stated, Hey, our goal is to sort of eliminate that problem. Are you- You feel like you guys in a partnership can actually achieve that. >> Yes. >> So, and you have customers that have actually avoided, you know, been hit and were able to- >> We have people who won't publicly say they've been hit, but the way they talk about what they did, like in a meeting, they were hit and they were very thankful. >> (laughs) Yeah. >> And so that's been very good. I- >> So we got proof. >> Yes, we absolutely have proof. And quite honestly, with the recent legislation in the United States, malware and ransomware actually now is also regulatory and compliance. >> Yeah. >> Because the new law states mid-March that whether it's Herzog's bar and grill to bank of America or any large foreign company doing business in the US, you have to report to the United States federal government, any attack, same with the county school district with any local government, any agency, the federal government, as well as every company from the tiniest to the largest in the world that does, they're supposed to report it 'cause the government is trying to figure out how to fight it. Just the way if you don't report burglary, how they catch the burglars. >> Does your solution simplify testing in any way or reduce the risk of testing? >> Well, because the recovery is so rapid, we recommend that people do this on a regular basis. So for example, because the recovery is so quick, you can recover in 12 minutes while we do not practice, let's say once a month or once every couple weeks. And guess what? It also allows you to build a repository of known good copies. Remember when you get ransomeware, no one's going to come say, Hey, I'm Mr. Rans. I'm going to steal your stuff. It's all done surreptitiously. They're all James Bond on the sly who doesn't say "By the way, I'm James Bond". They are truly underneath the radar. And they're very slowly encrypting that data set. So guess what? Your primary data and your backup data that you don't want to be attacked can be attacked. So it's really about finding a known good copy. So if you're doing this on a regular basis, you can get an index of known good copies. >> Right. >> And then, you know, oh, I can go back to last Tuesday and you know that that's good. Otherwise you're literally testing Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday to try to find a known good copy, which delays the recovery process 'cause you really do have to test. They make sure it's good. >> If you increase that frequency, You're going to protect yourself. That's why I got to go. Thanks so much for coming on theCUBEs. Great to see you. >> Great. Thank you very much. I'll be wearing a different Hawaiian shirt next to. >> All right. That sounds good. >> All right, Eric Herzog, Eric Herzog on theCUBE, Dave Vallante for David Nicholson. We'll be right back at VEEAMON 2022. Right after this short break. (light music playing)

>>Hello, and welcome. Very excited to see everybody here. DockerCon is going fantastic. Everybody's uh, engaging in the chat. It's awesome to see. My name is Peter McKee. I'm the head of developer relations here at Docker and Taber. Today. We're going to be talking about container first development now and in the future. But before we do that, a couple little housekeeping items, first of all, yes, we are live. So if you're in our session, you can go ahead and chat, ask us questions. We'd love to get all your questions and answer them. Um, if you come to the main page on the website and you do not see the chat, go ahead and click on the blue button and that'll die. Uh, deep dive you into our session and you can interact with the chat there. Okay. Without further ado, let's just jump right into it. Katie, how are you? Welcome. Do you mind telling everybody who you are and a little bit about yourself? >>Absolutely. Hello everyone. My name is Katie and currently I am the eco-system advocate at cloud native computing foundation or CNCF. My responsibility is to lead and represent the end-user community. So these are all the practitioners within the cloud native space that are vendor neutral. So they use cloud native technologies to build their services, but they don't sell it. So this is quite an important characteristic as well. My responsibility is to make sure to close the gap between these practitioners and the project maintainers, to make sure that there is a feedback loop around. Um, I have many roles within the community. I am on the advisory board for KIPP finishes, a sandbox project. I'm working with open UK to make sure that Elton standards are used fairly across data, hardware, and software. And I have been, uh, affiliated way if you'd asked me to make sure that, um, I'm distributing a cloud native fundamental scores to make cloud and they do a few bigger despite everyone. So looking forward to this panel and checking with everyone. >>Awesome. Yeah. Welcome. Glad to have you here. Johanna's how are you? Can you, uh, tell everybody a little bit about yourself and who you are? Yeah, sure. >>So hi everybody. My name is Johannes I'm one of the co-founders at get pot, which in case you don't know is an open-source and container based development platform, which is probably also the reason why you Peter reached out and invited me here. So pleasure to be here, looking forward to the discussion. Um, yeah, though it is already a bit later in Munich. Um, and actually my girlfriend had a remote cocktail class with her colleagues tonight and it took me some stamina to really say no to all the Moscow mules that were prepared just over there in my living room. Oh wow. >>You're way better than me. Yeah. Well welcome. Thanks for joining us. Jerome. How are you? Good to see you. Can you tell everybody who you are and a little bit about yourself? Hi, >>Sure. Yeah, so I'm, I, I used to work at Docker and some, for me would say I'm a container hipster because I was running containers in production before it for hype. Um, I worked at Docker before it was even called Docker. And then since 2018, I'm now a freelancer and doing training and consulting around Docker containers, Kubernetes, all these things. So I used to help folks do stuff with Docker when I was there and now I still have them with containers more generally speaking. So kind of, uh, how do we say same, same team, different company or something like that? Yeah. >>Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. Good to see you. I'm glad you're on. Uh, Jacob, how are you? Good to see you. Thanks for joining us. Good. Yeah. Thanks for having me tell, tell everybody a little bit about yourself who you are. >>Yeah. So, uh, I'm the creator of a tool called mutagen, which is an open source, uh, development tool for doing high performance file synchronization and, uh, network forwarding, uh, to enable remote development. And so I come from like a physics background where I was sort of always doing, uh, remote developments, you know, whether that was on a big central clusters or just like some sort of local machine that was a bit more powerful. And so I, after I graduated, I built this tool called mutagen, uh, for doing remote development. And then to my surprise, people just started using it to use, uh, with Docker containers. And, uh, that's kind of grown into its primary use case now. So I'm, yeah, I've gotten really involved with the Docker community and, uh, talked with a lot of great people and now I'm one of the Docker captains. So I get to talk with even more and, and join these events and yeah, but I'm, I'm kind of focused on doing remote development. Uh, cause I, you know, I like, I like having all my tools available on my local machine, but I also like being able to pull in a little bit more powerful hardware or uh, you know, maybe a software that I can't run locally. And so, uh, that's sort of my interest in, in Docker container. Yeah. Awesome. >>Awesome. We're going to come back to that for sure. But yeah. Thank you again. I really appreciate you all joining me and yeah. So, um, I've been thinking about container first development for a while and you know, what does that actually mean? So maybe, maybe we can define it in our own little way. So I, I just throw it out to the panel. When you think about container first development, what comes to mind? What w what, what are you kind of thinking about? Don't be shy. Go ahead. Jerome. You're never a loss of words >>To me. Like if I go back to the, kind of the first, uh, you know, training engagements we did back at Docker and kind of helping folks, uh, writing Dockerfiles to stop developing in containers. Um, often we were replacing, um, uh, set up with a bunch of Vagrant boxes and another, like the VMs and combinations of local things. And very often they liked it a lot and they were very soon, they wanted to really like develop in containers, like run this microservice. This piece of code is whatever, like run that in containers because that means they didn't have to maintain that thing on their own machine. So that's like five years ago. That's what it meant to me back then. However, today, if you, if you say, okay, you know, developing in containers, um, I'm thinking of course about things like get bought and, uh, I think it's called PR or something like that. >>Like this theme, maybe that thing with the ESCO, that's going to run in a container. And you, you have this vs code thing running in your browser. Well, obviously not in your browser, but in a container that you control from your browser and, and many other things like that, that I, I think that's what we, where we want to go today. Uh, and that's really interesting, um, from all kinds of perspectives, like Chevy pair pairing when we will not next to each other, but actually thousands of miles away, um, or having this little environment that they can put aside and come back to it later, without it having using resource in my machine. Um, I don't know, having this dev service running somewhere in the cloud without needing something like, it's at the rights that are like the, the possibilities are really endless. >>Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. I'm, you know, a little while ago I was, I was torn, right. W do I spin up containers? Do I develop inside of my containers? Right. There's foul sinking issues. Um, you know, that we've been working on at Docker for a while, and Jacob is very, very familiar with those, right? Sometimes it, it becomes hard, but, and I, and I love developing in the cloud, but I also have this screaming, you know, fast machine sitting on my desktop that I think I should take advantage of. So I guess another question is, you know, should we be developing inside of containers? Is that a smart thing to do? Uh, I'd love to hear you guys' thoughts around that. >>You know, I think it's one of those things where it's, you know, for me container first development is really about, um, considering containers as sort of a first class citizen in, in terms of your development toolkit, right. I mean, there's not always that silver bullet, that's like the one thing you should use for everything. You know, you shouldn't, you shouldn't use containers if they're not fitting in or adding value to your workflow, but I think there's a lot of scenarios that are like, you know, super on super early on in the development process. Like as soon as you get the server kind of running and working and, you know, you're able to access it, you know, running on your local system. Uh that's I think that's when the value comes in to it to add containers to, you know, what you're doing or to your project. Right. I mean, for me, they're, um, they're more of a orchestrational tool, right? So if I don't have to have six different browser tabs open with like, you know, an API server running at one tab and a web server running in another tab and a database running in another tab, I can just kind of encapsulate those and, and use them as an automation thing. So I think, you know, even if you have a super powerful computer, I think there's still value in, um, using containers as, as a orchestrational mechanism. Yeah. Yeah, >>For sure. I think, I think one of the, one of my original aha moments with Docker was, oh, I can spin up different versions of a database locally and not have to install it and not have to configure it and everything, but, you know, it just ran inside of a container. And that, that was it. Although it's might seem simple to some people that's very, very powerful. Right. So I think being able to spin things up and containers very quickly is one of the super benefits. But yeah, I think, uh, developing in containers is, is hard right now, right. With, um, you know, and how do you do that? Right. Does anybody have any thoughts around, how do you go about that? Right. Should you use a container as just a development environment, so, you know, creating an image and then running it just with your dev tools in it, or do you just, uh, and maybe with an editor all inside of it, and it's just this process, that's almost like a VM. Um, yeah. So I'll just kick it back to the panel. I'd love to hear your thoughts on, you know, how do you set up and configure, uh, containers to develop in any thoughts around that? >>Maybe one step back again, to answer your question, what kind of container first development mean? I think it doesn't mean, um, by default that it has to be in the cloud, right? As you said, um, there are obvious benefits when it comes to the developer experience of containers, such as, I dunno, consistency, we have standardized tools dependencies for the dev side of things, but it also makes their dev environment more similar to all the pipeline that is somehow happening to the right, right. So CIC D all the way to production, it is security, right? Which also somehow comes with standardization. Um, but vulnerability scanning tools like sneak are doing a great job there. And, um, for us, it gets pod. One of the key reasons why we created get pod was literally creating this peace of mind for deaths. So from a developer's point of view, you do not need to take care anymore about all the hassle around setups and things that you will need to install. >>And locally, based on some outdated, REIT me on three operating systems in your company, everybody has something different and leading to these verbs in my machine situations, um, that really slow professional software developers down. Right. Um, back to your point, I mean, with good pod, we obviously have to package everything together in one container because otherwise, exactly the situation happens that you need to have five browser tabs open. So we try and leverage that. And I think a dev environment is not just the editor, right? So a dev environment includes your source code. It includes like a powerful shell. It includes file systems. It includes essentially all the tools you need in order to be productive databases and so on. And, um, yeah, we believe that should be encapsulated, um, um, in a container. >>Yeah. Awesome. Katie, you talked to a lot of end users, right. And you're talking to a lot of developers. What, what's your thoughts around container first development, right? Or, or what's the community out there screaming or screaming. It might be too to, uh, har you know, to, to two grand of the word. Right. But yeah, I love it. I love to hear what your, your thoughts. >>Absolutely. So I think when you're talking about continuing driven development, uh, the first thing that crosses my mind is the awareness of the infrastructure or the platform you're going to run your application on top of, because usually when you develop your application, you'd like to replicate as much as possible the production or even the staging environment to make sure that when you deploy your application, you have us little inconsistencies as possible, but at the same time, you minimize the risk for something to go wrong as well. So when it talking about the, the community, um, again, when you deploy applications and containers and Kubernetes, you have to use, you have awareness about, and probably apply some of the best practices, like introducing liveliness and readiness probes, to make sure that your application can restart in, in case it actually goes down or there's like a you're starving going CPU or something like that. >>So, uh, I think when it comes to deployment and development of an application, the main thing is to actually improve the end developer experience. I think there has been a lot of focus in the community to develop the tool, to actually give you the right tool to run application and production, but that doesn't necessarily, um, go back to how the end developer is actually enabling that application to run into that production system. So I think there has been, uh, this focus for the community identified now, and it's more, more, um, or trying to build momentum on enhancing the developer experience. And we've seen this going through many, uh, where we think production of many tools did what has been one of them, which actually we can have this portable, um, development environment if you choose so, and you can actually replicate them across different teams in different machines, which is actually quite handy. >>But at the same time, we had tools such as local composts has been a great tool to run locally. We have tool such as carefully, which is absolutely great to automatically dynamically upload any changes to how within your code. So I think all of these kinds of tools, they getting more matured. And again, this is going back to again, we need to enhance our developer experience coming back to what is the right way to do so. Um, I think it really depends on the environment you have in production, because there's going to define some of the structures with the tool and you're going to have internally, but at the same time, um, I'd like to say that, uh, it really depends on, on what trucks are developing. Uh, so it's, it's, I would like to personally, I would like to see a bit more diversification in this area because we might have this competitive solutions that is going to push us to towards a new edge. So this is like, what definitely developer experience. If we're talking about development, that's what we need to enhance. And that's what I see the momentum building at the moment. >>Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Jerome, I saw you shaking your head there in agreement, or maybe not, but what's your thoughts? >>I was, uh, I was just reacting until 82. Uh, it depends thinking that when I, when I do training, that's probably the answer that I gave the most, uh, each time somebody asks, oh, should we do diesel? And I was also looking at some of the questions in the chat about, Hey, the, should we like have a negatory in the, in the container or something like that. And folks can have pretty strong opinions one way or the other, but as a ways, it kind of depends what we do. It also depends of the team that we're working with. Um, you, you could have teams, you know, with like small teams with folks with lots of experience and they all come with their own Feb tools and editorials and plugins. So you know that like you're gonna have PRI iMacs out of my cold dead hands or something like that. >>So of course, if you give them something else, they're going to be extremely unhappy or sad. On the other hand, you can have team with folks who, um, will be less opinionated on that. And even, I don't know, let's say suddenly you start working on some project with maybe a new programming language, or maybe you're targeting some embedded system or whatever, like something really new and different. And you come up with all the tools, even the ADE, the extensions, et cetera, folks will often be extremely happy in that case that you're kind of giving them a Dettol and an ADE, even if that's not what they usually would, uh, would use, um, because it will come with all of the, the, the nice stage, you know, the compression, the, um, the, the, the bigger, the, whatever, all these things. And I think there is also something interesting to do here with development in containers. >>Like, Hey, you're going to start working on this extremely complex target based on whatever. And this is a container that has everything to get started. Okay. Maybe it's not your favorites editor, but it has all the customization and the conserver and whatever. Um, so you can start working right away. And then maybe later you, we want to, you know, do that from the container in a way, and have your own Emacs, atom, sublime, vs code, et cetera, et cetera. Um, but I think it's great for containers here, as well as they reserve or particularly the opportunity. And I think like the, that, that's one thing where I see stuff like get blood being potentially super interesting. Um, it's hard for me to gauge because I confess I was never a huge ID kind of person had some time that gives me this weird feeling, like when I help someone to book some, some code and you know, that like with their super nice IDE and everything is set up, but they feel kind of lost. >>And then at some point I'm like, okay, let's, let's get VI and grep and let's navigate this code base. And that makes me feel a little bit, you know, as this kind of old code for movies where you have the old, like colorful guy who knows going food, but at the end ends up still being obsolete because, um, it's only a going for movies that whole good for masters and the winning right. In real life, we don't have conformance there's anymore mentioned. So, um, but part of me is like, yeah, I like having my old style of editor, but when, when the modern editorial modern ID comes with everything set up and configured, that's just awesome. That's I, um, it's one thing that I'm not very good at sitting up all these little things, but when somebody does it and I can use it, it's, it's just amazing. >>Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I'm I feel the same way too. Right. I like, I like the way I've I have my environment. I like the tools that I use. I like the way they're set up. And, but it's a big issue, right? If you're switching machines, like you said, if you're helping someone else out there, they're not there, your key bindings aren't there, you can't, you can't navigate their system. Right? Yeah. So I think, you know, talking about, uh, dev environments that, that Docker's coming out with, and we're, you know, there's a lot, there, there's a, it's super complex, all these things we're talking about. And I think we're taking the approach of let's do something, uh, well, first, right. And then we can add on to that. Right. Because I think, you know, setting up full, full developed environments is hard, right. Especially in the, the, um, cloud native world nowadays with microservices, do you run them on a repo? >>Do you not have a monitor repo? Maybe that would be interesting to talk about. I think, um, you know, I always start out with the mono repos, right. And you have all your services in there and maybe you're using one Docker file. And then, because that works fine. Cause everything is JavaScript and node. And then you throw a little Python in there and then you throw a little go and now you start breaking things out and then things get too complex there, you know, and you start pulling everything out into different, get repos and now, right. Not everything just fits into these little buckets. Right. So how do you guys think maybe moving forward, how do we attack that night? How do we attack these? Does separate programming languages and environments and kind of bring them all together. You know, we, we, I hesitate, we solve that with compose around about running, right about executing, uh, running your, your containers. But, uh, developing with containers is different than running containers. Right. It's a, it's a different way to think about it. So anyway, sorry, I'm rattling on a little bit, but yeah. Be interesting to look at a more complex, uh, setup right. Of, uh, of, you know, even just 10 microservices that are in different get repos and different languages. Right. Just some thoughts. And, um, I'm not sure we all have this flushed out yet, but I'd love to hear your, your, you guys' thoughts around that. >>Jacob, you, you, you, you look like you're getting ready to jump there. >>I didn't wanna interrupt, but, uh, I mean, I think for me the issue isn't even really like the language boundary or, or, um, you know, a sub repo boundary. I think it's really about, you know, the infrastructure, right? Because you have, you're moving to an era where you have these cloud services, which, you know, some of them like S3, you can, you can mock up locally, uh, or run something locally in a container. But at some point you're going to have like, you know, cloud specific hardware, right? Like you got TPS or something that maybe are forming some critical function in your, in your application. And you just can't really replicate that locally, but you still want to be able to develop against that in some capacity. So, you know, my, my feeling about where it's going to go is you'll end up having parts of your application running locally, but then you also have, uh, you know, containers or some other, uh, element that's sort of cohabitating with, uh, you know, either staging or, or testing or production services that you're, uh, that you're working with. >>So you can actually, um, you know, test against a really or realistic simulation or the actual, uh, surface that you're running against in production. Because I think it's just going to become untenable to keep emulating all of that stuff locally, or to have to like duplicate these, you know, and, you know, I guess you can argue about whether or not it's a good thing that, that everything's moving to these kind of more closed off cloud services, but, you know, the reality of situation is that's where it's going to go. And there's certain hardware that you're going to want in the cloud, especially if you're doing, you know, machine learning oriented stuff that there's just no way you're going to be able to run locally. Right. I mean, if you're, even if you're in a dev team where you have, um, maybe like a central machine where you've got like 10 or 20 GPU's in it, that's not something that you're going to be able to, to, to replicate locally. And so that's how I kind of see that, um, you know, containers easing that boundary between different application components is actually maybe more about co-location, um, or having different parts of your application run in different locations, on different hardware, you know, maybe someone on your laptop, maybe it's someone, you know, AWS or Azure or somewhere. Yeah. It'd be interesting >>To start seeing those boundaries blur right. Working local and working in the cloud. Um, and you might even, you might not even know where something is exactly is running right until you need to, you know, that's when you really care, but yeah. Uh, Johanas, what's your thoughts around that? I mean, I think we've, we've talked previously of, of, um, you know, hybrid kind of environments. Uh, but yeah. What, what's your thoughts around that? >>Um, so essentially, yeah, I think, I mean, we believe that the lines between cloud and local will also potentially blur, and it's actually not really about that distinction. It's just packaging your dev environment in a way and provisioning your dev environment in a way that you are what we call always ready to coat. So that literally, um, you, you have that for the, you described as, um, peace of mind that you can just start to be creative and start to be productive. And if that is a container potentially running locally and containers are at the moment. I think, you know, the vehicle that we use, um, two weeks ago, or one week ago actually stack blitz announced the web containers. So potentially some things, well, it's run in the browser at some point, but currently, you know, Docker, um, is the standard that enables you to do that. And what we think will happen is that these cloud-based or local, um, dev environments will be what we call a femoral. So it will be similar to CIS, um, that we are using right now. And it doesn't literally matter, um, where they are running at the end. It's just, um, to reduce friction as much as possible and decrease and yeah, yeah. Essentially, um, avoid or the hustle that is currently involved in setting up and also managing dev environments, um, going forward, which really slows down specifically larger teams. >>Yeah. Yeah. Um, I'm going to shift gears a little bit here. We have a question from the audience in chat, uh, and it's, I think it's a little bit two parts, but so far as I can see container first, uh, development, have the challenges of where to get safe images. Um, and I was going to answer it, but let me keep it, let me keep going, where to get safe images and instrumentation, um, and knowing where exactly the problem is happening, how do we provide instrument instrumentation to see exactly where a problem might be happening and why? So I think the gist of it is kind of, of everything is in a container and I'm sitting outside, you know, the general thought around containers is isolation, right. Um, so how do I get views into that? Um, whether debugging or, or, or just general problems going on. I think that's maybe a broader question around the, how you, you know, you have your local hosts and then you're running everything containers, and what's the interplay there. W what's your thoughts there? >>I tend to think that containers are underused interactively. I mean, I think in production, you have this mindset that there's sort of this isolated environment, but it's very, actually simple to drop into a shell inside of a container and use it like you would, you know, your terminal. Um, so if you want to install software that way, you know, through, through an image rather than through like Homebrew or something, uh, you can kind of treat containers in that way and you can get a very, um, you know, direct access to the, to the space in which those are running in. So I think, I think that's maybe the step one is just like getting rid of that mindset, that, that these are all, um, you know, these completely encapsulated environments that you can't interact with because it's actually quite easy to just Docker exec into a container and then use it interactively >>Yeah. A hundred percent. And maybe I'll pass, I'm going to pass this question. You drone, but maybe demystify containers a little bit when I talked about this on the last, uh, panel, um, because we have a question in the, in the chat around, what's the, you know, why, why containers now I have VMs, right? And I think there's a misunderstanding in the industry, uh, about what, what containers are, we think they're fair, packaged stuff. And I think Jacob was hitting on that of what's underneath the hood. So maybe drown, sorry, for a long way to set up a question of what, what, what makes up a container, what is a container >>Is a container? Well, I, I think, um, the sharpest and most accurate and most articulate definition, I was from Alice gold first, and I will probably misquote her, but she said something like containers are a bunch of capsulated processes, maybe running on a cookie on welfare system. I'm not sure about the exact definition, but I'm going to try and, uh, reconstitute that like containers are just processes that run on a Unix machine. And we just happen to put a bunch of, um, red tape or whatever around them so that they are kind of contained. Um, but then the beauty of it is that we can contend them as much, or as little as we want. We can go kind of only in and put some actual VM or something like firecracker around that to give some pretty strong angulation, uh, all we can also kind of decontam theorize some aspects, you know, you can have a container that's actually using the, um, the, um, the network namespace of the host. >>So that gives it an entire, you know, wire speed access to the, to the network of the host. Um, and so to me, that's what really interesting, of course there is all the thing about, oh, containers are lightweight and I can pack more of them and they start fast and the images can be small, yada yada, yada. But to me, um, with my background in infrastructure and building resilient, things like that, but I find really exciting is the ability to, you know, put the slider wherever I need it. Um, the, the, the ability to have these very light containers, all very heavily, very secure, very anything, and even the ability to have containers in containers. Uh, even if that sounds a little bit, a little bit gimmicky at first, like, oh, you know, like you, you did the Mimi, like, oh, I heard you like container. >>So I put Docker when you're on Docker. So you can run container for you, run containers. Um, but that's actually extremely convenient because, um, as soon as you stop building, especially something infrastructure related. So you challenge is how do you test that? Like, when we were doing.cloud, we're like, okay, uh, how do we provision? Um, you know, we've been, if you're Amazon, how do you provision the staging for us installed? How do you provision the whole region, Jen, which is actually staging? It kind of makes things complicated. And the fact that we have that we can have containers within containers. Uh, that's actually pretty powerful. Um, we're also moving to things where we have secure containers in containers now. So that's super interesting, like stuff like a SIS box, for instance. Um, when I saw that, that was really excited because, uh, one of the horrible things I did back in the days as Docker was privileged containers, precisely because we wanted to have Docker in Docker. >>And that was kind of opening Pandora's box. That's the right, uh, with the four, because privileged containers can do literally anything. They can completely wreck up the machine. Um, and so, but at the same time, they give you the ability to run VPNs and run Docker in Docker and all these cool things. You can run VM in containers, and then you can list things. So, um, but so when I saw that you could actually have kind of secure containers within containers, like, okay, there is something really powerful and interesting there. And I think for folks, well, precisely when you want to do development in containers, especially when you move that to the cloud, that kind of stuff becomes a really important and interesting because it's one thing to have my little dev thing on my local machine. It's another thing when I want to move that to a swarm or Kubernetes cluster, and then suddenly even like very quickly, I hit the wall, which is, oh, I need to have containers in my containers. Um, and then having a runtime, like that gets really intense. >>Interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I, and jumping back a bit, um, yeah, uh, like you said, drum at the, at the base of it, it containers just a, a process with, with some, uh, Abra, pardon me, operating constructs wrapped around it and see groups, namespaces those types of things. But I think it's very important to, for our discussion right. Of, uh, developers really understanding that, that this is just the process, just like a normal process when I spin up my local bash in my term. Uh, and I'm just interacting with that. And a lot of the things we talk about are more for production runtimes for securing containers for isolating them locally. I don't, I don't know. I'll throw the question out to the panel. Is that really relevant to us locally? Right. Do we want to pull out all of those restrictions? What are the benefits of containers for development, right. And maybe that's a soft question, but I'd still love to hear your thoughts. Maybe I'll kick it over to you, Katie, would you, would you kick us off a little bit with that? >>I'll try. Um, so I think when, again, I was actually thinking of the previous answers because maybe, maybe I could do a transition here. So, interesting, interesting about containers, a piece of trivia, um, the secrets and namespaces have been within the Linux kernel since 2008, I think, which just like more than 10 years ago, hover containers become popular in the last years. So I think it's, it's the technology, but it's about the organization adopting this technology. So I think why it got more popular now is because it became the business differentiator organizations started to think, how can I deliver value to my customers as quickly as possible? So I think that there should be this kind of two lane, um, kind of progress is the technology, but it's at the same time organization and cultural now are actually essential for us to develop, uh, our applications locally. >>Again, I think when it's a single application, if you have just one component, maybe it's easier for you to kind of run it locally, have a very simple testing environment. Sufficient is a container necessary, probably not. However, I think it's more important when you're thinking to the bigger picture. When we have an architecture that has myriads of microservices at the basis, when it's something that you have to expose, for example, an API, or you have to consume an API, these are kind of things where you might need to think about a lightweight set up within the containers, only local environment to make sure that you have at least a similar, um, environment or a configuration to make sure that you test some of the expected behavior. Um, I think the, the real kind of test you start from the, the dev cluster will like the dev environment. >>And then like for, for you to go to staging and production, you will get more clear into what exactly that, um, um, configuration should be in the end. However, at the same time, again, it's, it's more about, um, kind of understanding why you continue to see this, the thing, like, I don't say that you definitely need containers at all times, but there are situations when you have like, again, multiple services and you need to replicate them. It's just the place to, to, to work with these kind of, um, setups. So, um, yeah, really depends on what you're trying to develop here. Nothing very specific, unfortunately, but get your product and your requirements are going to define what you're going to work with. >>Yeah, no, I think that's a great answer, right. I think one of the best answers in, in software engineering and engineering in general as well, it depends. Right. It's things are very specific when we start getting down to the details, but yeah, generally speaking, you know, um, I think containers are good for development, but yeah, it depends, right. It really depends. Is it helping you then? Great. If it's hindering you then, okay. Maybe think what's, what's the hindrance, right. And are containers the right solution. I agree. 110% and, >>And everything. I would like absurd this too as well. When we, again, we're talking about the development team and now we have this culture where we have the platform and infrastructure team, and then you have your engineering team separately, especially when the regulations are going to be segregated. So, um, it's quite important to understand that there might be a, uh, a level of up-skilling required. So pushing for someone to use containers, because this is the right way for you to develop your application might be not, uh, might not be the most efficient way to actually develop a product because you need to spend some time to make sure that the, the engineering team has the skills to do so. So I think it's, it's, again, going back to my answers here is like, truly be aware of how you're trying to develop how you actually collaborate and having that awareness of your platform can be quite helpful in developing your, uh, your publication, the more importantly, having less, um, maybe blockers pushing it to a production system. >>Yeah, yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. The, uh, the cultural issue is, is, um, within the organization, right. Is a very interesting thing. And it, and I would submit that it's very hard from top down, right. Pushing down tools and processes down to the dev team, man, we'll just, we'll just rebel. It usually comes from the bottom up. Right. What's working for us, we're going to do right. And whether we do it in the shadows and don't let it know, or, or we've conformed, right. Yeah. A hundred percent. Um, interesting. I would like to think a little bit in the future, right? Like, let's say, I don't know, two, three years from now, if, if y'all could wave a and I'm from Texas. So I say y'all, uh, if you all could wave a magic wand, what, what, what would that bring about right. What, what would, what would be the best scenario? And, and we just don't have to say containers. Right. But, you know, what's the best development environment and I'm going to kick it over to you, Jacob. Cause I think you hinted at some of that with some hybrid type of stuff, but, uh, yeah. Implies, they need to keep you awake. You're, you're, you're, uh, almost on the other side of the world for me, but yeah, please. >>Um, I think, you know, it's, it's interesting because you have this technology that you've been, that's been brought from production, so it's not, um, necessarily like the right or the normal basis for development. So I think there's going to be some sort of realignment or renormalization in terms of, uh, you know, what the, what the basis and the abstractions that we're using on a daily basis are right. Like images and containers as they exist now are really designed for, um, for production use cases. And, and in terms of like, even even the ergonomics of opening a shell inside a container, I think is something that's, um, you know, not as polished or not as smooth as it could be because they've come from production. And so I think it's important, like not to, not to have people look at, look at the technology as it exists now and say like, okay, this is slightly rough around the edges, or it wasn't designed for this use case and think, oh, there's, you know, there's never any way I could use this for, for my development of workflows. >>I think it's, you know, it's something Docker's exploring now with, uh, with the, uh, dev containers, you know, it's, it's a new, and it's an experimental paradigm and it may not be what the final picture looks like. As, you know, you were saying, there's going to be kind of a baseline and you'll add features to that or iterate on that. Um, but I think that's, what's interesting about it, right? Cause it's, there's not a lot of things as developers that you get to play with that, um, that are sort of the new technology. Like if you're talking about things you're building to ship, you want to kind of use tried and true components that, you know, are gonna, that are going to be reliable. But I think containers are that interesting point where it's like, this is an established technology, but it's also being used in a way now that's completely different than what it was designed for. And, and, you know, as hackers, I think that's kind of an interesting opportunity to play with it, but I think, I think that's, what's going to happen is you're just going to see kind of those production, um, designed, uh, knobs kind of sanded down or redesigned for, for development. So that's kind of where I see it going. >>Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's what I was trying to hint out earlier is like, um, yeah, just because all these things are there, does it actually mean we need them locally? Right. Do they make sense? I, I agree. A hundred percent, uh, anybody else drawn? What are your thoughts around that? And then, and then, uh, I'll probably just ask all of you. I'd love to hear each of your thoughts of the future. >>I had a thought was maybe unrelated, but I was kind of wondering if we would see something on the side of like energy efficiency in some way. Um, and maybe it's just because I've been thinking a lot about like climate change and things like that recently, and trying to reduce like the, uh, the energy use energy use and things like that. Perhaps it's also because I recently got a new laptop, which on paper is super awesome, but in practice, as soon as you try to have like two slack tabs and a zoom call, you know, it's super fast, both for 30 seconds. And after 30 seconds, it blows its thermal budget and it's like slows down to a crawl. And I started to think, Hmm, maybe, you know, like before we, we, we were thinking about, okay, I don't have that much CPU available. So you have to be kind of mindful about that. >>And now I wonder how are we going to get in something similar to that, but where you try to save CPU cycles, not just because you don't have that many CPU cycles, but more because you know, that you can't go super fast for super long when you are on one of these like small laptops or tablets or phones, like you have this demo budget to take into account. And, um, I wonder if, and how like, is there something where goaltenders can do some things here? I guess it can be really interesting if they can do some the equivalent of like Docker top and Docker stats. And if I could see, like how much what's are these containers using, I can already do that with power top on Linux, for instance, like process by process. So I'm thinking I could see what's the power usage of, of some containers. Um, and I wonder if down the line, is this going to be something useful or is this just silly because we can just masquerade CPU usage for, for Watson and forget about it. >>Yeah. Yeah. It was super, super interesting, uh, perspective for sure. I'm going to shut up because I want to, I want to give, make sure I give Johannes and Katie time. W w what are your thoughts of the future around, let's just say, you know, container development in general, right? You want, you want to start absolutely. Oh, honest, Nate. Johns wants more time. I say, I'll try not to. Beneficiate >>Expensive here, but, um, so one of the things that we've we've touched upon earlier in the panel was multicloud strategy. And I was reading one of the data reports from it was about the concept of Kubernetes from gamer Townsville. But what is working for you to see there is that more and more organizations are thinking about multicloud strategy, which means that you need to develop an application or need an infrastructure or a component, which will allow you to run this application bead on a public cloud bead, like locally in a data center and so forth. And here, when it comes to this kind of, uh, maybe problems we come across open standards, this is where we require something, which will allow us to execute our application or to run our platform in different environments. So when you're thinking about the application or development of the application, one of the things that, um, came out in 2019 at was the Oakland. >>Um, I wish it was Kybella, which is a, um, um, an open application model based application, which allows you to describe the way you would like your service to be executed in different environments. It doesn't need to be well developed specifically for communities. However, the open application model is specialized. So specialized tries to cover multiple platforms. You will be able to execute your application anywhere you want it to. So I think that that's actually quite important because it completely obstructs what is happening underneath it, completely obstructs notions, such as containers, uh, or processes is just, I want this application and I want to have this kind of behavior is so example of, to scale in this conditions or to, um, to be exposed for these, uh, end points and so forth. And everything that I would like to mention here is that maybe this transcends again, the, uh, the logistics of the application development, but it definitely will impact the way we run our applications. >>So one of the biggest, well, one of the new trends that is kind of gaining momentum now has been around Plaza. And this is again, something which is trying to present what we have the on containers. Again, it's focusing on the, it's kind of a cyclical, um, uh, action movement that we have here. When we moved from the VMs to containers, it was smaller footprint. We want like better execution, one, this agnosticism of the platforms. We have the same thing happening here with Watson, but again, it consents a new, um, uh, kind of, well, it teaches in you, uh, in new climax here, where again, we shrink the footprint of the cluster. We have a better isolation of all the services. We have a better trend, like portability of how services and so forth. So there is a great potential out there. And again, like why I'm saying this is some of these technologies are gonna define the way we're gonna do our development of the application on our local environment. >>That's why it's important to kind of maybe have an eye there and maybe see if some of those principles of some of those technologies we can bring internally as well. And just this, like a, a final thought here, um, security has been mentioned as well. Um, I think it's something which has been, uh, at the forefront, especially when it comes to containers, uh, especially when it comes to enterprise organizations and those who are regulated, which I feel come very comfortable to run their application within a VM where you have the full isolation, you can do what we have complete control of what's happening inside that compute. So, um, again, security has been at the forefront at the moment. So I know it has mentioned in the panel before. I'd like to mention that we have the security white paper, which has been published. We have the software supply chain, white paper as well, which twice to figure out or define some of these good practices as well, again, which you can already apply from your development environment and then propagate them to production. So I'm just going to leave, uh, all of these. That's all. >>That's awesome. And yeah, well, while is very, very interesting. I saw the other day that, um, and I forget who it was, maybe, maybe all can remember, um, you know, running, running the node, um, engine inside of, you know, in Walzem inside of a browser. Right. And, uh, at first glance I said, well, we already have a JavaScript execution engine. Right. And it's kind of like Docker and Docker. So you have, uh, you know, you have the browser, then, then you have blossom and then you have a node, you know, a JavaScript runtime. And, and I didn't understand was while I was, um, you know, actually executing is JavaScript and it's not, but yeah, it's super interesting, super powerful. I always felt that the browser was, uh, Java's what write once run anywhere kind of solution, right. That never came about, they were thinking of set top, uh, TV boxes and stuff like that, which is interesting. >>I don't know, you'll some of the history of Java, but yeah. Wasm is, is very, I'm not sure how to correctly pronounce it, but yeah, it's extremely interesting because of the isolation in that boxing. Right. And running powerful languages that were used to inside of a more isolated environment. Right. And it's almost, um, yeah, it's kind of, I think I've mentioned it before that the containers inside of containers, right. Um, yeah. So Johannes, hopefully I gave you enough time. I delayed, I delayed as much as I can. My friend, you better, you better just kidding. I'm just kidding, please, please. >>It was by the way, stack let's and they worked together with Google and with Russell, um, developing the web containers, it's called there's, it's quite interesting. The research they're doing there. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what we believe and I, I also believe is that, um, yeah, probably somebody is doing to death environments, what Docker did to servers and at least that good part. We hope that somebody will be us. Um, so what we mean by that is that, um, we think today we are still somehow emotionally attached to our dev environments. Right. We give them names, we massage them over time, which can also have its benefits, but it's, they're still pets in some way. Right. And, um, we believe that, um, environments in the future, um, will be treated similar like servers today as automated resources that you can just spin up and close down whenever you need them. >>Right. And, um, this trend essentially that you also see in serverless, if you look at what kind of Netlify is doing a bit with preview environments, what were sellers doing? Um, there, um, we believe will also arrive at, um, at Steph environments. It probably won't be there tomorrow. So it will take some time because if there's also, you know, emotion involved into, in that, in that transition, but ultimately really believe that, um, provisioning dev environments also in the cloud allows you to leverage the power of the cloud and to essentially build all that stuff that you need in order to work in advance. Right? So that's literally either command or a button. So either, I don't know, a command that spins up your local views code and SSH into, into a container, or you do it in a browser, um, will be the way that professional development teams will develop in the future. Probably let's see in our direction of document, we say it's 2000 to 23. Let's see if that holds true. >>Okay. Can we, can, we let's know. Okay. Let's just say let's have a friendly bet. I don't know that's going to be closed now, but, um, yeah, I agree. I, you know, it's my thought around is it, it's hard, right? Th these are hard. And what problems do you tackle first, right? Do you tackle the day, one of, uh, you know, of development, right. I joined a team, Hey, here's your machine? And you have Docker installed and there you go, pull, pull down your environment. Right. Is that necessarily just an image? You know, what, what exactly is that sure. Containers are involved. Right. But that's, I mean, you, you've probably all gone through it. You joined a team, new project, even open-source project, right there. There's a huge hurdle just to get everything configured, to get everything installed, to get it up and running, um, you know, set aside all understanding the code base. >>Cause that's a different issue. Right. But just getting everything running locally and to your point earlier, Jacob of around, uh, recreating, local production cues and environments and, you know, GPS or anything like that, right. Is extremely hard. You can't do a lot of that locally. Right. So I think that's one of the things I'd love to see tackled. And I think that's where we're tackling in dev environments, uh, with Docker, but then now how do you become productive? Right. And where do we go from there? And, uh, and I would love to see this kind of hybrid and you guys have been all been talking about it where I can, yes. I have it configured everything locally on my nice, you know, apple notebook. Right. And then, you know, I go with the family and we go on vacation. I don't want to drag this 16 inch, you know, Mac laptop with me. >>And I want to take my nice iPad with the magic keyboard and all the bang stuff. Right. And I just want to fire up and I pick up where I left off. Right. And I keep coding and environment feels, you know, as much as it can that I'm still working at backup my desktop. I think those, those are very interesting to me. And I think reproducing, uh, the production running runtime environments as close as possible, uh, when I develop my, I think that's extremely powerful, extremely powerful. I think that's one of the hardest things, right. It's it's, uh, you know, we used to say, we, you debug in production. Right. We would launch, right. We would do, uh, as much performance testing as possible. But until you flip that switch on a big, on a big site, that's where you really understand what is going to break. >>Right. Well, awesome. I think we're just about at time. I really, really appreciate everybody joining me. Um, it's been a pleasure talking to all of you. We have to do this again. If I, uh, hopefully, you know, I I'm in here in America and we seem to be doing okay with COVID, but I know around the world, others are not. So my heart goes out to them, but I would love to be able to get out of here and come see all of you and meet you in person, maybe break some bread together. But, um, again, it was a pleasure talking to you all, and I really appreciate you taking the time. Have a good evening. Cool. >>Thanks for having us. Thanks for joining us. Yes.

>>From around the globe, it's the cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel and AWS. >>Oh, welcome back to the cube. As we continue our coverage of AWS reinvent 2020, you know, I know you're familiar with Moneyball, the movie, Brad Pitt, starting as Billy Bean, the Oakland A's general manager, where the A's were all over data, right. With the Billy Bean approach, it was a very, uh, data driven approach to building his team and a very successful team. Well, AWS is taking that to an extraordinary level and with us to talk about that as Matt Hearst, who was the head of global sports marketing and communications at AWS and Matt, thanks for joining us here on the queue. >>John is my pleasure. Thanks so much for having me. You >>Bet. Um, now we've already heard from a couple of folks, NFL folks, uh, at re-invent, uh, about the virtual draft. Um, but for those of our viewers who maybe aren't up to speed on that, or having a chance to see, uh, what those folks had to say, uh, let's just talk about that as an opener, um, about your involvement with the NFL and particularly with, with the draft and, and what that announcement was all about. >>Sure. We, we saw, we've seen a great evolution with our work with the NFL over the past few years. And you mentioned during the infrastructure keynote where Michelle McKenna who's, the CIO for the NFL talks about how they were able to stage the 2020 virtual draft, which was the NFL is much most watched ever, uh, you know, over 55 million viewers over three days and how they were unable to do it without the help and the power of AWS, you know, utilizing AWS is reliability, scalability, security, and network connectivity, where they were able to manage thousands of live feeds to flow to the internet and go to ESPN, to airline. Um, but additionally, Jennifer LinkedIn, who's the SVP of player health and innovation at the NFL spoke during the machine learning keynote during reinvent. And she talked about how we're working with the NFL, uh, to co-develop the digital athlete, which is a computer simulation model of a football player that can replicate infinite scenarios in a game environment to help better foster and understanding of how to treat and rehabilitate injuries in the short term and in the long-term in the future, ultimately prevent, prevent and predict injuries. >>And they're using machine learning to be able to do that. So there's, those are just a couple of examples of, uh, what the NFL talked about during re-invent at a couple of keynotes, but we've seen this work with the NFL really evolve over the past few years, you know, starting with next gen stats. Those are the advanced statistics that, uh, brings a new level of entertainment to football fans. And what we really like to do, uh, with the NFL is to excite, educate, and innovate. And those stats really bring fans closer to the game to allow the broadcasters to go a little bit deeper, to educate the fans better. And we've seen some of those come to life through some of our ads, uh, featuring Deshaun Watson, Christian McCaffrey, um, these visually compelling statistics that, that come to life on screen. Um, and it's not just the NFL. AWS is doing this with some of the top sports leagues around the world, you know, powering F1 insights, Buddhist league, and match facts, six nations, rugby match stats, all of which utilize AWS technology to uncover advanced stats and really help educate and engage fans around the world in the sports that they love. >>Let's talk about that engagement with your different partners then, because you just touched on it. This is a wide array of avenues that you're exploring. You're in football, you're in soccer, you're in sailing, uh, you're uh, racing formula one and NASCAR, for example, all very different animals, right? In terms of their statistics and their data and of their fan interest, what fans ultimately want. So, um, maybe on a holistic basis first, how are you, uh, kind of filtering through your partner's needs and their fans needs and your capabilities and providing that kind of merger of capabilities with desires >>Sports, uh, for AWS and for Amazon are no different than any other industry. And we work backwards from the customer and what their needs are. You know, when we look at the sports partners and customers that we work with and why they're looking to AWS to help innovate and transform their sports, it's really the innovative technologies like machine learning, artificial intelligence, high performance computing, internet of things, for example, that are really transforming the sports world and some of the best teams and leagues that we've talked about, that you touched on, you know, formula one, NASCAR, NFL, Buena, Sligo, six nations, rugby, and so on and so forth are using AWS to really improve the athlete and the team performance transform how fans view and engage with sports and deliver these real-time advanced statistics to give fans, uh, more of that excitement that we're talking about. >>Let me give you a couple of examples on some of these innovative technologies that our customers are using. So the Seattle Seahawks, I built a data Lake on AWS to use it for talent, evaluation and acquisition to improve player health and recovery times, and also for their game planning. And another example is, you know, formula and we talk about the F1 insights, those advanced statistics, but they're also using AWS high-performance computing that helped develop the next generation race car, which will be introduced in the 2022 season. And by using AWS F1 was able to reduce the average time to run simulations by 70% to improve the car's aerodynamics, reducing the downforce loss and create more wheel to wheel racing, to bring about more excitement on the track. And a third example, similar to, uh, F1 using HPC is any of those team UK. So they compete in the America's cup, which is the oldest trophy in international sports. And endosteum UK is using an HPC environment running on Amazon, easy to spot instances to design its boat for the upcoming competition. And they're depending on this computational power on AWS needing 2000 to 3000 simulations to design the dimension of just a single boat. Um, and so the power of the cloud and the power of the AWS innovative technologies are really helping, uh, these teams and leagues and sports organizations around the world transform their sport. >>Well, let's go back. Uh, you mentioned the Seahawks, um, just as, uh, an example of maybe, uh, the kind of insights that that you're providing. Uh, let's pretend I'm there, there's an outstanding running back and his name's Matt Hearst and, uh, and he's at a, you know, a college let's just pretend in California someplace. Um, what kind of inputs, uh, are you now helping them? Uh, and what kind of insights are you trying to, are you helping them glean from those inputs that maybe they didn't have before? And how are they actually applying that then in terms of their player acquisition and thinking about draft, right player development, deciding whether Matt Hertz is a good fit for them, maybe John Wallace is a good fit for them. Um, but what are the kinds of, of, uh, what's that process look like? >>So the way that the Seahawks have built the data Lake, they built it on AWFs to really, as you talk about this talent, evaluation and acquisition, to understand how a player, you know, for example, a John Walls could fit into their scheme, you know, that, that taking this data and putting it in the data Lake and figuring out how it fits into their schemes is really important because you could find out that maybe you played, uh, two different positions in high school or college, and then that could transform into, into the schematics that they're running. Um, and try to find, I don't want to say a diamond in the rough, but maybe somebody that could fit better into their scheme than, uh, maybe the analysts or others could figure out. And that's all based on the power of data that they're using, not only for the talent evaluation and acquisition, but for game planning as well. >>And so the Seahawks building that data Lake is just one of those examples. Um, you know, when, when you talk about a player, health and safety, as well, just using the NFL as the example, too, with that digital athlete, working with them to co-develop that for that composite NFL player, um, where they're able to run those infinite scenarios to ultimately predict and prevent injury and using Amazon SageMaker and AWS machine learning to do so, it's super important, obviously with the Seahawks, for the future of that organization and the success that they, that they see and continue to see, and also for the future of football with the NFL, >>You know, um, Roger Goodell talks about innovation in the national football league. We hear other commissioners talking about the same thing. It's kind of a very popular buzz word right now is, is leagues look to, uh, ways to broaden their, their technological footprint in innovative ways. Again, popular to say, how exactly though, do you see AWS role in that with the national football league, for example, again, or maybe any other league in terms of inspiring innovation and getting them to perhaps look at things differently through different prisms than they might have before? >>I think, again, it's, it's working backwards from the customer and understanding their needs, right? We couldn't have predicted at the beginning of 2020, uh, that, you know, the NFL draft will be virtual. And so working closely with the NFL, how do we bring that to life? How do we make that successful, um, you know, working backwards from the NFL saying, Hey, we'd love to utilize your technology to improve Clare health and safety. How are we able to do that? Right. And using machine learning to do so. So the pace of innovation, these innovative technologies are very important, not only for us, but also for these, uh, leagues and teams that we work with, you know, using F1 is another example. Um, we talked about HPC and how they were able to, uh, run these simulations in the cloud to improve, uh, the race car and redesign the race car for the upcoming seasons. >>But, uh, F1 is also using Amazon SageMaker, um, to develop new F1 insights, to bring fans closer to the action on the track, and really understand through technology, these split-second decisions that these drivers are taking in every lap, every turn, when to pit, when not to pit things of that nature and using the power of the cloud and machine learning to really bring that to life. And one example of that, that we introduced this year with, with F1 was, um, the fastest driver insight and working F1, worked with the Amazon machine learning solutions lab to bring that to life and use a data-driven approach to determine the fastest driver, uh, over the last 40 years, relying on the years of historical data that they store in S3 and the ML algorithms that, that built between AWS and F1 data scientists to produce this result. So John, you and I could sit here and argue, you know, like, like two guys that really love F1 and say, I think Michael Schumacher is the fastest drivers. It's Lewis, Hamilton. Who's great. Well, it turned out it was a arts incentive, you know, and Schumacher was second. And, um, Hamilton's third and it's the power of this data and the technology that brings this to life. So we could still have a fun argument as fans around this, but we actually have a data-driven results through that to say, Hey, this is actually how it, how it ranked based on how everything works. >>You know, this being such a strange year, right? With COVID, uh, being rampant and, and the major influence that it has been in every walk of global life, but certainly in the American sports. Um, how has that factored into, in terms of the kinds of services that you're looking to provide or to help your partners provide in order to increase that fan engagement? Because as you've pointed out, ultimately at the end of the day, it's, it's about the consumer, right? The fan, and giving them info, they need at the time they want it, that they find useful. Um, but has this year been, um, put a different point on that for you? Just because so many eyeballs have been on the screen and not necessarily in person >>Yeah. T 20, 20 as, you know, a year, unlike any other, um, you know, in our lifetimes and hopefully going forward, you know, it's, it's not like that. Um, but we're able to understand that we can still bring fans closer to the sports that they love and working with, uh, these leagues, you know, we talk about NFL draft, but with formula one, we, uh, in the month of may developed the F1 Pro-Am deep racer event that featured F1 driver, uh, Daniel Ricardo, and test driver TA Sianna Calderon in this deep racer league and deep racers, a one 18th scale, fully autonomous car, um, that uses reinforcement learning, learning a type of machine learning. And so we had actual F1 driver and test driver racing against developers from all over the world. And technology is really playing a role in that evolution of F1. Um, but also giving fans a chance to go head to head against the Daniel Ricardo, which I don't know that anyone else could ever say that. >>Yeah, I raced against an F1 driver for head to head, you know, and doing that in the month of may really brought forth, not only an appreciation, I think for the drivers that were involved on the machine learning and the technology involved, but also for the developers on these split second decisions, these drivers have to make through an event like that. You know, it was, it was great and well received. And the drivers had a lot of fun there. Um, you know, and that is the national basketball association. The NBA played in the bubble, uh, down in Orlando, Florida, and we work with second spectrum. They run on AWS. And second spectrum is the official optical provider of the NBA and they provide Clippers court vision. So, uh, it's a mobile live streaming experience for LA Clippers fans that uses artificial intelligence and machine learning to visualize data through on-screen graphic overlays. >>And second spectrum was able to rely on, uh, AWS is reliability, connectivity, scalability, and move all of their equipment to the bubble in Orlando and still produce a great experience for the fans, um, by reducing any latency tied to video and data processing, um, they needed that low latency to encode and compress the media to transfer an edit with the overlays in seconds without losing quality. And they were able to rely on AWS to do that. So a couple of examples that even though 2020 was, uh, was a little different than we all expected it to be, um, of how we worked closely with our sports partners to still deliver, uh, an exceptional fan experience. >>So, um, I mean, first off you have probably the coolest job at AWS. I think it's so, uh, congratulations. I mean, it's just, it's fascinating. What's on your want to do less than in terms of 20, 21 and beyond and about what you don't do now, or, or what you would like to do better down the road, any one area in particular that you're looking at, >>You know, our, our strategy in sports is no different than any other industry. We want to work backwards from our customers to help solve business problems through innovation. Um, and I know we've talked about the NFL a few times, but taking them for, for another example, with the NFL draft, improving player health and safety, working closely with them, we're able to help the NFL advance the game both on and off the field. And that's how we look at doing that with all of our sports partners and really helping them transform their sport, uh, through our innovative technologies. And we're doing this in a variety of ways, uh, with a bunch of engaging content that people can really enjoy with the sports that they love, whether it's, you know, quick explainer videos, um, that are short two minute or less videos explaining what these insights are, these advanced stats. >>So when you see them on the screening and say, Oh yeah, I understand what that is at a, at a conceptual level or having blog posts from a will, Carlin who, uh, has a long storied history in six nations and in rugby or Rob Smedley, along story history and F1 writing blog posts to give fans deeper perspective as subject matter experts, or even for those that want to go deeper under the hood. We've worked with our teams to take a deeper look@howsomeofthesecometolifedetailingthetechnologyjourneyoftheseadvancedstatsthroughsomedeepdiveblogsandallofthiscanbefoundataws.com slash sports. So a lot of great rich content for, uh, for people to dig into >>Great stuff, indeed. Um, congratulations to you and your team, because you really are enriching the fan experience, which I am. One of, you know, hundreds of millions are enjoying that. So thanks for that great work. And we wish you all the continued success down the road here in 2021 and beyond. Thanks, Matt. Thanks so much, Sean.

>>from >>around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, AWS and our community partners. >>Hi. >>And welcome to the Cube. Virtual in our coverage of aws reinvent 2020. We have a cube virtual, and I'm your host, Justin Warren. And today, my guest is Shauna Wolverton, executive vice president of product at ZENDESK. And she's coming to us from Oakland, California. Shauna, welcome to the >>Cube. Thanks so much for having me. It is >>It is lovely to be here. How's the weather over there? In Oakland, >>we just suddenly went from summer to winter, which, uh, after the weather we've had is no complaints. >>All right, Well, as as a resident of Melbourne, where we have four seasons in one day, I am very familiar with rapid weather changes. So, uh, hopefully it's not too cold for you, and you get a little bit of nicer weather just before you go fully into winter. Absolutely. Now Zendesk and Amazon have a pretty close relationship is my understanding, and we know that Amazon is famous for its customer center at attitude. Wonderful thing about customers, of course, is that they're never really happy with everything that we have. So zendesk fit in with that with that relationship with Amazon. And how is your approach to customer? >>Yeah. I mean, the relationship we have with them is I'm really excited. Really Have gone all in on our move to the cloud. There are sole provider on DWI run all of our services, um, on AWS. And in addition, we have some great partnerships with, uh, Jacob Amazon Connect, which allows us to provide great telephony and call center services to our customers. We have a great partnership around event bridge and a zwelling app connect. So I think there is a fantastic relationship that we have where we're able to deliver not just our basic services, but to really take advantage of a lot of the services that Amazon on AWS provide s so that we can sort of accelerate our own roadmap and deliver great new features to our customers. >>Now, a lot of people have gone through a pretty similar adoption of the cloud of the moment. Unfortunate reason for doing so. But it certainly has driven the adoption very, very quickly. Uh, zendesk, of course, as you say, has been has been doing this for quite some time. So what have you noticed that stayed the same eso from last year to this year? What were you already doing that you're now noticing? Everyone else's discovering. Actually, this is pretty good. >>Well, you know, I think you know the rumors of of the call center and and the telephone as a channel. Their demise are greatly exactly. I think, um, for us. Much as we're all excited about chat and messaging and all of the different ways that we can connect with our customers, there's something about having a phone number and allowing people to pick up the phone and talk to a human that refuses to go out of style. And so I think, um, you know, our partnership with, uh with Amazon connection has been hugely powerful and even, you know, recently when a lot of this sort of acceleration has picked up, we've seen, um, you know, we saw a customer who had a power failure kind of massive failure of their own phone system. Be able thio, come to us, get, get, connect up and running incredibly quickly and start taking thousands of calls a day and that kind of sort of quick time to value fast start ability for our customers. Just this hugely important. Um, now. But really, you know, that's always been true, right? >>Yeah. I mean, when people want to call you and they want to talk to you, then they're not really happy If they can't get through that and particularly right now, being able to make that human human connection for me, I know that that that's been a really important part of getting through this. I work remotely most of the time. So actually, speaking to humans as we're doing now is is really refreshing change from just seeing everything on on a text screen. Um, so yeah, so it's It's interesting that the phone has actually has been so resilient, even though we were here from Ah, lot of young people say, Oh, we never answer the phone when someone calls, uh, but a lot of people are actually calling into businesses when they wanna make contact or when they when they don't see things on the website. So >>how does >>zendesk help, too, to integrate with what people are doing in their online and digital channels through to what they're doing with phone system. >>Yeah, but I think fundamentally people want their questions answered. One of my favorite studies that we did was around our benchmark study and we talked to Millennials. They said the first place they go to get help to their phone, but when you push it a little deeper, it was clear that they actually didn't know that the phone was for making phone calls. It was just all of the other help centers like like the first way that a lot of people today are looking for. Answers is, you know I wanna google it. And for that you need a really great help center has all that information out there and then you want toe have, you know, communities where people can talk to each other and get help. And then, you know, Mawr and Mawr. We're seeing the rise of messaging as a channel, both through the social channels like WhatsApp and Facebook Messenger Aziz Well, Azaz native messaging kind of ongoing conversations. He you ordered your dinner. It hasn't arrived. It's so great to be able to go into those applications and just message to the business and figure out what's what's going on and get that sort of instantaneous response as well, >>right? And you shared some stats with this regarding how much has moved across to some of these things phone based messaging channels. So tickets coming in has risen about 50% on DCA, paired to some gains on on live chat. So people are really embracing the idea of being about a message, not just individual talking to your friends in the group chat, but actually using that to engage with with the companies that they would normally use websites or or phone. It's like text chat is a thing. >>Yeah, I mean, it was funny to me. You know, I think we're still, uh, in the U. S. Not quite as far along as a lot of our international friends. When I when traveling was a thing that we did, you know, I was always like it was cool to see that there were billboards and ads that had what that phone numbers on them is a really, you know, way that businesses were wanting to engage. I mean, you think about be wanting to be where your customers are today. So many of us, um do have you know what's happened? Wechat and line and vibrant. They're all in our pocket. And being able to provide all of those two businesses is a new way to engage. I think we're finding is hugely powerful, >>right? So with with all of these dynamic changes that have been happening, and it sounds like it's actually just sort of riding the wave of what customers were already doing, we're just doing it just that little bit mawr. But have you noticed any other larger changes? Possibly ones that aren't related thio a pandemic, Just general shifts that have been happening that you've seen in your customer base? >>Yeah. I mean, like I said, I think so much of what we're seeing is that people, uh, in general want answers quickly, and whether it's a phone call is great. And like I said, people are not going to stop calling. But I think people want to make sure less than like, I need a human to have a conversation I want. I want the answer quickly, and that's where we're really focused in both thinking about how we provide tools around automating some of getting those answers using, uh, a i N m l so that people can come to us, ask questions and we can get them the best answer very quickly without, um, having Thio engage a person. I think things idea of quick resolution is clearly becoming one of the most important things in customer sentiment. I think we know that, um, Mawr and Mawr. This idea of how quickly I can get my question's resolved or how easy it is for me to do business with you is a huge differentiator in how people make buying >>choices. Mm. On that. That automation has long been a new track tive idea. I mean, I'm I'm old enough to remember expert systems and and having a go at doing this kind of heavily automated way of resolving particularly common issues. And I mean, we were familiar with Coulson, a chat scripts. Where there's here are the top three issues and or it will be in the I V. R. Where it's like we're currently experiencing this particular problems, so that resolves your question quite quickly. But there's been a big rise in things like chatbots and and the use of AI. How far advanced. Is that because I still remember some of the early forays into that were a little bit flaky, and that could actually exacerbate the poor customer experience. I'm already having a problem, and and now you're chatbots getting in the way. Have they gotten a lot better? Are they Are they up to the challenge? >>Yeah. I mean, I think what's really critical when you're thinking about automation? Um, in the conversations you're having with customers, it's it's two things. One Don't try to hide that. That you're a computer. No, no, my name is Chad. I am. I am a human. Um, you're not in the vault. Yeah, there's not anyone. Um, so I think being really clear. And then, um e think surfacing how thio very easily opt out of those flows. I think, um, you know, automation is great, but it's not away. You shouldn't think of it as a way to frustrate your users to keep them tied up until you can get to them. It really is. Give them some quick options. And if they don't? If those don't solve their problems, really make sure that your you've got an escape valve, right? We were putting out a new sort of flow build their product zendesk. And we have all of the different, uh, words that someone could say that air like smashing the zero button. That means please transfer me to a person, right? You're driving me crazy. Let me connect you to an agent. Eso We're really making sure that it's easy, um, for customers to provide the solution where their customers can get the help they need rather than I >>really like that. That's That's something I think that gets a little bit lost in the focus on computers and and on automation is that the reason we do this is to help the humans. So when we have these AI systems, it's not actually to replace. The human interaction is to make it better. It's to make mean that we can then get to that genuine connection. Computers a fabulous and when they work, it's when they don't when they frustrate things that that bothers us. And that's generally why we're calling is that something has already gone wrong and we're a bit frustrated. So adding more frustration, doesn't it? Sounds like a good approach. It sounds like zendesk really got that? That dolled in very, very well. Is that something that you've you've always had? Is it something that you've refined over time? And can you teach it to a bunch of other companies? >>Way would love to teach each other. People know, I think e think we have always thought about how the machines can help the humans. And I think one it's how can they help the customers, of course. But the other side that I don't think people talk about quite a much is how can we use computers to help agents? Right. So you're talking to a person, and how can we take sort of the best answers that they've given Thio other customers and surface those, um, when When a new agent is coming on board, how do we suggest, um, you know, the different kinds of work flows that they might want to use to solve this problem in a more dynamic way. So I really like to think of the computers never as a replacement but really as a sort of hidden superpower, Um, that organizations have to make every agent one of their best >>agents, right? Yes, it is a kind of external cyborg thing. I mean, I can't remember anything these days. I constantly right less and they all live in computers. But they are. That's the kind of society that we live with today. And I think we should remember to embrace that side of things. That ah, lot of life has actually gotten a lot better through the use of these computing systems. It's not all terrible. It's, um, and I think more companies could probably learn from zendesk. And the approach that you've taken to center the humans, both the customers and and your internal staff, the call center and and the people who are providing this service. No one enjoys it when things are breaking and and things have gone wrong being able to resolve that quickly. Thanks a better experience for everybody. >>Yeah. I mean, I think we find over and over again sometimes you know, if you can handle an issue that's gone wrong, Um well, you can actually induce more loyalty than you know. If someone never contacted. You'd also if you could really take advantage of the times you have, unfortunately, maybe messed up on bake those customers happy. You really do you know, put so much in the sort of loyalty piggy bank for later. It's really great. >>So for some of the companies that have maybe struggled with this a little bit and particularly under very trying conditions, is there's some advice that you could give to them. Is there some places that they should should start to investigate this when they want to improve the way that they handle customer service, perhaps with things like Zendesk. >>Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of what what we're focused on right now is the this channel that's coming. Like I said, we think a lot about social messaging, but also in native messaging. Andi, how you can have a sort of ongoing long term conversation for a long time customer service, sort of Holy Grail was chat, and you could have a agent online and a human online, and you could solve their problem and then move on right And and sometimes those things take a little longer to solve. Or, you know, you might have a big issue and a whole bunch of people who have an issue and maybe not enough agents to solve them. And so, with messaging. We've really changed the dynamic. So chat was this completely synchronous, Almost like a phone call. Kind of experience and more messaging. You're able to live in this sort of duality where we can have a conversation if we're both here. But just like with your friends, right? Sometimes you throw a message out to offend you. Put it in your pocket, you pick it up, and you could pick up the conversation right where you left off. So bring that paradigm into your customer support experience really allows you to take some of that fear out of handling the volume that might come from chat. To be able to sort of have these ongoing sort of back and forth conversations over time. Andi also and give that that persistent so that we're always both in the same place when we show up again together >>embracing what the technology does well and avoiding what it doesn't do. Well, that that sounds like a plan. >>Shawna, >>this has been fabulous. It is. It is always very edifying for me. Thio here, when companies are doing well and centering the humans to make the technology improve all of our lives. Um It has been wonderful to have you here on the Cube. >>Thanks so much. It was a lot of fun, right? >>And thank you for joining in and and watching us here of the Cube virtual and our special coverage off AWS reinvent 2020. Do come back and look for more coverage off. Reinvent 2020 right here on the Cube. Next time I've been your host, Justin Warren, and we'll see you again soon.

>> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is theCUBE conversation. >> Hey, welcome back everybody Jeff Frick here with the cube. This is a special week it's Grace Hopper week, and Grace Hopper is the best name in tech conferences. The celebration of women in computing, and we've been going there for years we're not there this year, but one of the themes that comes up over and over at Grace Hopper is women and girls need to see women in positions that they can envision themselves being in someday. That is a really important piece of the whole diversity conversation is can I see people that I can role model after and I just want to bring up something from a couple years back from 2016 when we were there, we were there with Mimi Valdez, Christina Deoja and Dr. Jeanette Epps, Dr. Jeanette Epps is the astronaut on the right. They were there talking about "The Hidden Figures" movie. If you remember it came out 2016, it was about Katherine Johnson and all the black women working at NASA. They got no credit for doing all the math that basically keep all the astronauts safe and they made a terrific movie about it. And Janet is going up on the very first Blue Origin Space Mission Next year. This was announced a couple of months ago, so again, phenomenal leadership, black lady astronaut, going to go into space and really provide a face for a lot of young girls that want to get into that and its clearly a great STEM opportunity. So we're excited to have four terrific women today that well also are the leaders that the younger women can look up to and follow their career. So we're excited to have them so we're just going to go around. We got four terrific guests, our first one is Annabel Chang, She is the Head of State Policy and Government Regulations at Waymo. Annabel great to see you, where are you coming in from today? >> from San Francisco >> Jeff: Awesome. Next up is Inamarie Johnson. She is the Chief People and Diversity Officer for Zendesk Inamarie, great to see you. Where are you calling in from today? >> Great to be here. I am calling in from Palos Verdes the state >> Jeff: awesome >> in Southern California. >> Jeff: Some of the benefits of a virtual sometimes we can, we couldn't do that without the power of the internet. And next up is Jennifer Cabalquinto she is the Chief Financial Officer of the Golden State Warriors. Jennifer, great to see you Where are you coming in from today? >> Well, I wish I was coming in from the Chase Center in San Francisco but I'm actually calling in from Santa Cruz California today. >> Jeff: Right, It's good to see you and you can surf a lot better down there. So that's probably not all bad. And finally to round out our panelists, Kate Hogan, she is the COO of North America for Accenture. Kate, great to see you as well. Where are you coming in from today? >> Well, it's good to see you too. I am coming in from the office actually in San Jose. >> Jeff: From the office in San Jose. All right, So let's get into it . You guys are all very senior, you've been doing this for a long time. We're in a kind of a crazy period of time in terms of diversity with all the kind of social unrest that's happening. So let's talk about some of your first your journeys and I want to start with you Annabel. You're a lawyer you got into lawyering. You did lawyering with Diane Feinstein, kind of some politics, and also the city of San Francisco. And then you made this move over to tech. Talk about that decision and what went into that decision and how did you get into tech? 'cause we know part of the problem with diversity is a pipeline problem. You came over from the law side of the house. >> Yes, and to be honest politics and the law are pretty homogenous. So when I made the move to tech, it was still a lot of the same, but what I knew is that I could be an attorney anywhere from Omaha Nebraska to Miami Florida. But what I couldn't do was work for a disruptive company, potentially a unicorn. And I seized that opportunity and (indistinct) Lyft early on before Ride Hailing and Ride Sharing was even a thing. So it was an exciting opportunity. And I joined right at the exact moment that made myself really meaningful in the organization. And I'm hoping that I'm doing the same thing right now at Waymo. >> Great, Inamarie you've come from one of my favorite stories I like to talk about from the old school Clorox great product management. I always like to joke that Silicon Valley needs a pipeline back to Cincinnati and Proctor and Gamble to get good product managers out here. You were in the classic, right? You were there, you were at Honeywell Plantronics, and then you jumped over to tech. Tell us a little bit about that move. Cause I'm sure selling Clorox is a lot different than selling the terrific service that you guys provide at Zendesk. I'm always happy when I see Zendesk in my customer service return email, I know I'm going to get taken care of. >> Oh wow, that's great. We love customers like you., so thank you for that. My journey is you're right from a fortune 50 sort of more portfolio type company into tech. And I think one of the reasons is because when tech is starting out and that's what Zendesk was a few five years back or so very much an early stage growth company, two things are top of mind, one, how do we become more global? And how do we make sure that we can go up market and attract enterprise grade customers? And so my experience having only been in those types of companies was very interesting for a startup. And what was interesting for me is I got to live in a world where there were great growth targets and numbers, things I had never seen. And the agility, the speed, the head plus heart really resonated with my background. So super glad to be in tech, but you're right. It's a little different than a consumer products. >> Right, and then Jennifer, you're in a completely different world, right? So you worked for the Golden State Warriors, which everybody knows is an NBA team, but I don't know that everyone knows really how progressive the Warriors are beyond just basketball in terms of the new Chase Center, all the different events that you guys put on it. And really the leadership there has decided we really want to be an entertainment company of which the Golden State Warrior basketball team has a very, very important piece, you've come from the entertainment industry. So that's probably how they found you, but you're in the financial role. You've always been in the financial role, not traditionally thought about as a lot of women in terms of a proportion of total people in that. So tell us a little bit about your experience being in finance, in entertainment, and then making this kind of hop over to, I guess Uber entertainment. I don't know even how you would classify the warriors. >> Sports entertainment, live entertainment. Yeah, it's interesting when the Warriors opportunity came up, I naturally said well no, I don't have any sports background. And it's something that we women tend to do, right? We self edit and we want to check every box before we think that we're qualified. And the reality is my background is in entertainment and the Warriors were looking to build their own venue, which has been a very large construction project. I was the CFO at Universal Studios Hollywood. And what do we do there? We build large attractions, which are just large construction projects and we're in the entertainment business. And so that sort of B to C was a natural sort of transition for me going from where I was with Universal Studios over to the Warriors. I think a finance career is such a great career for women. And I think we're finding more and more women entering it. It is one that you sort of understand your hills and valleys, you know when you're going to be busy and so you can kind of schedule around that. I think it's really... it provides that you have a seat at the table. And so I think it's a career choice that I think is becoming more and more available to women certainly more now than it was when I first started. >> Yeah, It's interesting cause I think a lot of people think of women naturally in human resources roles. My wife was a head of human resources back in the day, or a lot of marketing, but not necessarily on the finance side. And then Kate go over to you. You're one of the rare birds you've been at Accenture  for over 20 years. So you must like airplanes and travel to stay there that long. But doing a little homework for this, I saw a really interesting piece of you talking about your boss challenging you to ask for more work, to ask for a new opportunity. And I thought that was really insightful that you, you picked up on that like Oh, I guess it's incumbent on me to ask for more, not necessarily wait for that to be given to me, it sounds like a really seminal moment in your career. >> It was important but before I tell you that story, because it was an important moment of my career and probably something that a lot of the women here on the panel here can relate to as well. You mentioned airplanes and it made me think of my dad. My father was in the air force and I remember him telling stories when I was little about his career change from the air force into a career in telecommunications. So technology for me growing up Jeff was, it was kind of part of the dinner table. I mean it was just a conversation that was constantly ongoing in our house. And I also, as a young girl, I loved playing video games. We had a Tandy computer down in the basement and I remember spending too many hours playing video games down there. And so for me my history and my really at a young age, my experience and curiosity around tech was there. And so maybe that's, what's fueling my inspiration to stay at Accenture for as long as I have. And you're right It's been two decades, which feels tremendous, but I've had the chance to work across a bunch of different industries, but you're right. I mean, during that time and I relate with what Jennifer said in terms of self editing, right? Women do this and I'm no exception, I did this. And I do remember I'm a mentor and a sponsor of mine who called me up when I'm kind of I was at a pivotal moment in my career and he said you know Kate, I've been waiting for you to call me and tell me you want this job. And I never even thought about it. I mean I just never thought that I'd be a candidate for the job and let alone somebody waiting for me to kind of make the phone call. I haven't made that mistake again, (laughing) but I like to believe I learned from it, but it was an important lesson. >> It's such a great lesson and women are often accused of being a little bit too passive and not necessarily looking out for in salary negotiations or looking for that promotion or kind of stepping up to take the crappy job because that's another thing we hear over and over from successful people is that some point in their career, they took that job that nobody else wanted. They took that challenge that really enabled them to take a different path and really a different Ascension. And I'm just curious if there's any stories on that or in terms of a leader or a mentor, whether it was in the career, somebody that you either knew or didn't know that was someone that you got kind of strength from kind of climbing through your own, kind of career progression. Will go to you first Annabel. >> I actually would love to talk about the salary negotiations piece because I have a group of friends about that we've been to meeting together once a month for the last six years now. And one of the things that we committed to being very transparent with each other about was salary negotiations and signing bonuses and all of the hard topics that you kind of don't want to talk about as a manager and the women that I'm in this group with span all types of different industries. And I've learned so much from them, from my different job transitions about understanding the signing bonus, understanding equity, which is totally foreign to me coming from law and politics. And that was one of the most impactful tools that I've ever had was a group of people that I could be open with talking about salary negotiations and talking about how to really manage equity. Those are totally foreign to me up until this group of women really connected me to these topics and gave me some of that expertise. So that is something I strongly encourage is that if you haven't openly talked about salary negotiations before you should begin to do so. >> It begs the question, how was the sensitivity between the person that was making a lot of money and the person that wasn't? And how did you kind of work through that as a group for the greater good of everyone? >> Yeah, I think what's really eye opening is that for example, We had friends who were friends who were on tech, we had friends who were actually the entrepreneurs starting their own businesses or law firm, associates, law firm partners, people in PR, so we understood that there was going to be differences within industry and frankly in scale, but it was understanding even the tools, whether I think the most interesting one would be signing bonus, right? Because up until a few years ago, recruiters could ask you what you made and how do you avoid that question? How do you anchor yourself to a lower salary range or avoid that happening? I didn't know this, I didn't know how to do that. And a couple of women that had been in more senior negotiations shared ways to make sure that I was pinning myself to a higher salary range that I wanted to be in. >> That's great. That's a great story and really important to like say pin. it's a lot of logistical details, right? You just need to learn the techniques like any other skill. Inamarie, I wonder if you've got a story to share here. >> Sure. I just want to say, I love the example that you just gave because it's something I'm super passionate about, which is transparency and trust. Then I think that we're building that every day into all of our people processes. So sure, talk about sign on bonuses, talk about pay parody because that is the landscape. But a quick story for me, I would say is all about stepping into uncertainty. And when I coach younger professionals of course women, I often talk about, don't be afraid to step into the role where all of the answers are not vetted down because at the end of the day, you can influence what those answers are. I still remember when Honeywell asked me to leave the comfort of California and to come to the East coast to New Jersey and bring my family. And I was doing well in my career. I didn't feel like I needed to do that, but I was willing after some coaching to step into that uncertainty. And it was one of the best pivotal moment in my career. I didn't always know who I was going to work with. I didn't know the challenges and scope I would take on, but those were some of the biggest learning experiences and opportunities and it made me a better executive. So that's always my coaching, like go where the answers aren't quite vetted down because you can influence that as a leader. >> That's great, I mean, Beth Comstock former vice chair at GE, one of her keynotes I saw had a great line, get comfortable with being uncomfortable. And I think that its a really good kind of message, especially in the time we're living in with accelerated change. But I'm curious, Inamarie was the person that got you to take that commitment. Would you consider that a sponsor, a mentor, was it a boss? Was it maybe somebody not at work, your spouse or a friend that said go for it. What kind of pushed you over the edge to take that? >> It's a great question. It was actually the boss I was going to work for. He was the CHRO, and he said something that was so important to me that I've often said it to others. And he said trust me, he's like I know you don't have all the answers, I know we don't have this role all figured out, I know you're going to move your family, but if you trust me, there is a ton of learning on the other side of this. And sometimes that's the best thing a boss can do is say we will go on this journey together. I will help you figure it out. So it was a boss, but I think it was that trust and that willingness for him to stand and go alongside of me that made me pick up my family and be willing to move across the country. And we stayed five years and really, I am not the same executive because of that experience. >> Right, that's a great story, Jennifer, I want to go to you, you work for two owners that are so progressive and I remember when Joe Lacob came on the floor a few years back and was booed aggressively coming into a franchise that hadn't seen success in a very long time, making really aggressive moves in terms of personnel, both at the coaches and the players level, the GM level. But he had a vision and he stuck to it. And the net net was tremendous success. I wonder if you can share any of the stories, for you coming into that organization and being able to feel kind of that level of potential success and really kind of the vision and also really a focus on execution to make the vision real cause vision without execution doesn't really mean much. If you could share some stories of working for somebody like Joe Lacob, who's so visionary but also executes so very, very effectively. >> Yeah, Joe is, well I have the honor of working for Joe, for Rick Welts to who's our president. Who's living legend with the NBA with Peter Guber. Our leadership at the Warriors are truly visionary and they set audacious targets. And I would say from a story the most recent is, right now what we're living through today. And I will say Joe will not accept that we are not having games with fans. I agree he is so committed to trying to solve for this and he has really put the organization sort of on his back cause we're all like well, what do we do? And he has just refused to settle and is looking down every path as to how do we ensure the safety of our fans, the safety of our players, but how do we get back to live entertainment? And this is like a daily mantra and now the entire organization is so focused on this and it is because of his vision. And I think you need leaders like that who can set audacious goals, who can think beyond what's happening today and really energize the entire organization. And that's really what he's done. And when I talked to my peers and other teams in there they're talking about trying to close out their season or do these things. And they're like well, we're talking about, how do we open the building? And we're going to have fans, we're going to do this. And they look at me and they're like, what are you talking about? And I said, well we are so fortunate. We have leadership that just is not going to settle. Like they are just always looking to get out of whatever it is that's happening and fix it. So Joe is so committed His background, he's an epidemiologist major I think. Can you imagine how unique a background that is and how timely. And so his knowledge of just around the pandemic and how the virus is spread. And I mean it's phenomenal to watch him work and leverage sort of his business acumen, his science acumen and really think through how do we solve this. Its amazing. >> The other thing thing that you had said before is that you basically intentionally told people that they need to rethink their jobs, right? You didn't necessarily want to give them permission to get you told them we need to rethink their jobs. And it's a really interesting approach when the main business is just not happening, right? There's just no people coming through the door and paying for tickets and buying beers and hotdogs. It's a really interesting talk. And I'm curious, kind of what was the reception from the people like hey, you're the boss, you just figure it out or were they like hey, this is terrific that he pressed me to come up with some good ideas. >> Yeah, I think when all of this happened, we were resolved to make sure that our workforce is safe and that they had the tools that they needed to get through their day. But then we really challenged them with re imagining what the next normal is. Because when we come out of this, we want to be ahead of everybody else. And that comes again from the vision that Joe set, that we're going to use this time to make ourselves better internally because we have the time. I mean, we had been racing towards opening Chase Center and not having time to pause. Now let's use this time to really rethink how we're doing business. What can we do better? And I think it's really reinvigorated teams to really think and innovate in their own areas because you can innovate anything, right?. We're innovating how you pay payables, we're all innovating, we're rethinking the fan experience and queuing and lines and all of these things because now we have the time that it's really something that top down we want to come out of this stronger. >> Right, that's great. Kate I'll go to you, Julie Sweet, I'm a big fan of Julie Sweet. we went to the same school so go go Claremont. But she's been super aggressive lately on a lot of these things, there was a get to... I think it's called Getting to 50 50 by 25 initiative, a formal initiative with very specific goals and objectives. And then there was a recent thing in terms of doing some stuff in New York with retraining. And then as you said, military being close to your heart, a real specific military recruiting process, that's formal and in place. And when you see that type of leadership and formal programs put in place not just words, really encouraging, really inspirational, and that's how you actually get stuff done as you get even the consulting businesses, if you can't measure it, you can't improve it. >> Yeah Jeff, you're exactly right. And as Jennifer was talking, Julie is exactly who I was thinking about in my mind as well, because I think it takes strong leadership and courage to set bold bold goals, right? And you talked about a few of those bold goals and Julie has certainly been at the forefront of that. One of the goals we set in 2018 actually was as you said to achieve essentially a gender balance workforce. So 50% men, 50% women by 2025, I mean, that's ambitious for any company, but for us at the time we were 400,000 people. They were 500, 6,000 globally. So when you set a goal like that, it's a bold goal and it's a bold vision. And we have over 40% today, We're well on our path to get to 50%, I think by 2025. And I was really proud to share that goal in front of a group of 200 clients the day that it came out, it's a proud moment. And I think it takes leaders like Julie and many others by the way that are also setting bold goals, not just in my company to turn the dial here on gender equality in the workforce, but it's not just about gender equality. You mentioned something I think it's probably at as, or more important right now. And that's the fact that at least our leadership has taken a Stand, a pretty bold stand against social injustice and racism, >> Right which is... >> And so through that we've made some very transparent goals in North America in terms of the recruitment and retention of our black African American, Hispanic American, Latinex communities. We've set a goal to increase those populations in our workforce by 60% by 2025. And we're requiring mandatory training for all of our people to be able to identify and speak up against racism. Again, it takes courage and it takes a voice. And I think it takes setting bold goals to make a change and these are changes we're committed to. >> Right, that's terrific. I mean, we started the conversation with Grace Hopper, they put out an index for companies that don't have their own kind of internal measure to do surveys again so you can get kind of longitudinal studies over time and see how you're improving Inamarie, I want to go to you on the social justice thing. I mean, you've talked a lot about values and culture. It's a huge part of what you say. And I think that the quote that you use, if I can steal it is " no culture eats strategy for breakfast" and with the social injustice. I mean, you came out with special values just about what Zendesk is doing on social injustice. And I thought I was actually looking up just your regular core mission and value statement. And this is what came up on my Google search. So I wanted to A, you published this in a blog in June, taking a really proactive stand. And I think you mentioned something before that, but then you're kind of stuck in this role as a mind reader. I wonder if you can share a little bit of your thoughts of taking a proactive stand and what Zendesk is doing both you personally, as well as a company in supporting this. And then what did you say as a binder Cause I think these are difficult kind of uncharted waters on one hand, on the other hand, a lot of people say, hello, this has been going on forever. You guys are just now seeing cellphone footage of madness. >> Yeah Wow, there's a lot in there. Let me go to the mind reader comments, cause people are probably like, what is that about? My point was last December, November timing. I've been the Chief People Officer for about two years And I decided that it really was time with support from my CEO that Zendesk have a Chief Diversity Officer sitting in at the top of the company, really putting a face to a lot of the efforts we were doing. And so the mind reader part comes in little did I know how important that stance would become, in the may June Timing? So I joked that, it almost felt like I could have been a mind reader, but as to what have we done, a couple of things I would call out that I think are really aligned with who we are as a company because our culture is highly threaded with the concept of empathy it's been there from our beginning. We have always tried to be a company that walks in the shoes of our customers. So in may with the death of George Floyd and the world kind of snapping and all of the racial injustice, what we said is we wanted to not stay silent. And so most of my postings and points of view were that as a company, we would take a stand both internally and externally and we would also partner with other companies and organizations that are doing the big work. And I think that is the humble part of it, we can't do it all at Zendesk, we can't write all the wrongs, but we can be in partnership and service with other organizations. So we used funding and we supported those organizations and partnerships. The other thing that I would say we did that was super important along that empathy is that we posted space for our employees to come together and talk about the hurt and the pain and the experiences that were going on during those times and we called those empathy circles. And what I loved is initially, it was through our mosaic community, which is what we call our Brown and black and persons of color employee resource group. But it grew into something bigger. We ended up doing five of these empathy circles around the globe and as leadership, what we were there to do is to listen and stand as an ally and support. And the stories were life changing. And the stories really talked about a number of injustice and racism aspects that are happening around the world. And so we are committed to that journey, we will continue to support our employees, we will continue to partner and we're doing a number of the things that have been mentioned. But those empathy circles, I think were definitely a turning point for us as an organization. >> That's great, and people need it right? They need a place to talk and they also need a place to listen if it's not their experience and to be empathetic, if you just have no data or no knowledge of something, you need to be educated So that is phenomenal. I want to go to you Jennifer. Cause obviously the NBA has been very, very progressive on this topic both as a league, and then of course the Warriors. We were joking before. I mean, I don't think Steph Curry has ever had a verbal misstep in the history of his time in the NBA, the guy so eloquent and so well-spoken, but I wonder if you can share kind of inside the inner circle in terms of the conversations, that the NBA enabled right. For everything from the jerseys and going out on marches and then also from the team level, how did that kind of come down and what's of the perception inside the building? >> Sure, obviously I'm so proud to be part of a league that is as progressive and has given voice and loud, all the teams, all the athletes to express how they feel, The Warriors have always been committed to creating a diverse and equitable workplace and being part of a diverse and equitable community. I mean that's something that we've always said, but I think the situation really allowed us, over the summer to come up with a real formal response, aligning ourselves with the Black Lives Matter movement in a really meaningful way, but also in a way that allows us to iterate because as you say, it's evolving and we're learning. So we created or discussed four pillars that we wanted to work around. And that was really around wallet, heart, beat, and then tongue or voice. And Wallet is really around putting our money where our mouth is, right? And supporting organizations and groups that aligned with the values that we were trying to move forward. Heart is around engaging our employees and our fan base really, right? And so during this time we actually launched our employee resource groups for the first time and really excited and energized about what that's doing for our workforce. This is about promoting real action, civic engagement, advocacy work in the community and what we've always been really focused in a community, but this really hones it around areas that we can all rally around, right? So registration and we're really focused on supporting the election day results in terms of like having our facilities open to all the electorate. So we're going to have our San Francisco arena be a ballot drop off, our Oakland facilities is a polling site, Santa Cruz site is also a polling location, So really promoting sort of that civic engagement and causing people to really take action. heart is all around being inclusive and developing that culture that we think is really reflective of the community. And voice is really amplifying and celebrating one, the ideas, the (indistinct) want to put forth in the community, but really understanding everybody's culture and really just providing and using the platform really to provide a basis in which as our players, like Steph Curry and the rest want to share their own experiences. we have a platform that can't be matched by any pedigree, right? I mean, it's the Warriors. So I think really getting focused and rallying around these pillars, and then we can iterate and continue to grow as we define the things that we want to get involved in. >> That's terrific. So I have like pages and pages and pages of notes and could probably do this for hours and hours, but unfortunately we don't have that much time we have to wrap. So what I want to do is give you each of you the last word again as we know from this problem, right? It's not necessarily a pipeline problem, it's really a retention problem. We hear that all the time from Girls in Code and Girls in Tech. So what I'd like you to do just to wrap is just a couple of two or three sentences to a 25 year old, a young woman sitting across from you having coffee socially distanced about what you would tell her early in the career, not in college but kind of early on, what would the be the two or three sentences that you would share with that person across the table and Annabel, we'll start with you. >> Yeah, I will have to make a pitch for transportation. So in transportation only 15% of the workforce is made up of women. And so my advice would be that there are these fields, there are these opportunities where you can make a massive impact on the future of how people move or how they consume things or how they interact with the world around them. And my hope is that being at Waymo, with our self driving car technology, that we are going to change the world. And I am one of the initial people in this group to help make that happen. And one thing that I would add is women spend almost an hour a day, shuttling their kids around, and we will give you back that time one day with our self driving cars so that I'm a mom. And I know that that is going to be incredibly powerful on our daily lives. >> Jeff: That's great. Kate, I think I might know what you're already going to say, but well maybe you have something else you wanted to say too. >> I don't know, It'll be interesting. Like if I was sitting across the table from a 25 year old right now I would say a couple of things first I'd say look intentionally for a company that has an inclusive culture. Intentionally seek out the company that has an inclusive culture, because we know that companies that have inclusive cultures retain women in tech longer. And the companies that can build inclusive cultures will retain women in tech, double, double the amount that they are today in the next 10 years. That means we could put another 1.4 million women in tech and keep them in tech by 2030. So I'd really encourage them to look for that. I'd encouraged them to look for companies that have support network and reinforcements for their success, and to obviously find a Waymo car so that they can not have to worry where kids are on for an hour when you're parenting in a few years. >> Jeff: I love the intentional, it's such a great word. Inamarie, >> I'd like to imagine that I'm sitting across from a 25 year old woman of color. And what I would say is be authentically you and know that you belong in the organization that you are seeking and you were there because you have a unique perspective and a voice that needs to be heard. And don't try to be anything that you're not, be who you are and bring that voice and that perspective, because the company will be a better company, the management team will be a better management team, the workforce will be a better workforce when you belong, thrive and share that voice. >> I love that, I love that. That's why you're the Chief People Officer and not Human Resources Officer, cause people are not resources like steel and cars and this and that. All right, Jennifer, will go to you for the wrap. >> Oh my gosh, I can't follow that. But yes, I would say advocate for yourself and know your value. I think really understanding what you're worth and being willing to fight for that is critical. And I think it's something that women need to do more. >> Awesome, well again, I wish we could go all day, but I will let you get back to your very, very busy day jobs. Thank you for participating and sharing your insight. I think it's super helpful. And there and as we said at the beginning, there's no better example for young girls and young women than to see people like you in leadership roles and to hear your voices. So thank you for sharing. >> Thank you. >> All right. >> Thank you. >> Okay thank you. >> Thank you >> All right, so that was our diversity panel. I hope you enjoyed it, I sure did. I'm looking forward to chapter two. We'll get it scheduled as soon as we can. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(energetic music) >> Live, from Las Vegas it's theCUBE covering Dell Technologies World 2019. Brought to you by Dell Technologies and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hi, welcome to theCUBE's coverage of Dell Technologies World 2019. I'm Lisa Martin with John Furrier. We're in Las Vegas and we have somebody from the city of Las Vegas here. We've got two gentlemen joining us. Bill Baver, the VP of NTT. Hey Bill, good to have you on theCUBE. >> Thank you very much, appreciate being here. >> And your partner in crime Michael Sherwood, the IT Director Las Vegas. The city of Las Vegas, where we are right now. >> Welcome. >> Thank you. >> Love having you here. >> Thank you for having us. So guys, theCUBE comes to Vegas a lot. There's a ton of shows here. You can fit a ton of people. Last year, Bill, we'll start with you, NTT and Dell Technologies announced this exciting smart cities initiative. Talk to us about, in the last year, first of all why NTT is partnering with Dell Technologies and what you've done. And then of course we're going to dig into Las Vegas as one of those smart secure cities that Michael, I can tell, is just tell dying to tell us about. So, in the last year, what's going on? >> Well, first off when you start digging let me see. I want to see how this really plays here. (laughter) So, I'm ready for that. So, yes last year we announced a partnership between Dell, NTT and Las Vegas. And it's really a three way partnership. And since then, if you ever work with city governments, how far the city of Las Vegas has come has been amazing. So within six months we installed equipment that was supposed to be there. And then started for the last six months running a system there, running it around public safety perspective, and really starting to bring true insights to what they're doing. The Dell part brings equipment on the edge and our core data center. How to go back and forth between the entire Dell family. Dell, EMC, VMware, and then the NTT family that's there. And then really the third leg of the stool is the city of Las Vegas and the insights they've allowed to us to recognize and sort of bring to them. So they can make changes in how the city is looking at and running the environment. >> And why did you decide to start this partnership with the wonderful city of Las Vegas? >> It's really around innovation. So, Michael Sherwood, and the city of Las Vegas have really become a leader in innovation around the country and they're really willing to take chances. And they have an innovation zone that allows them to do projects rather quickly. Not as quick as this sometimes, but rather quickly. Then, we can start to see results and then they can adjust and start to figure out how it's going to roll out and sustain across the city. So, it was their innovation and it was really Michael's legacy of what he's been doing so far and what his willingness to work with partners has been. So that's really a reason to do this as we went forward. >> So, how about the innovation strategy? Because, obviously, Las Vegas, a lot of people come here. Destination, public safety's been critical. Number one. I've seen the evolution of just really smart moves whether it's blocking the sidewalks from anyone driving on them to the use of video and processing video. You need AI for that. So it's probably a melting pot of interest to be on the forefront. >> Why would innovation go anywhere else other than Las Vegas, where we're the innovators of entertainment. We're the innovators of fun. So, why not be the innovators of technology and innovate with great companies like NTT and Dell. I mean you can't get any better. If you want to talk about a cube of perfection that would be it right there. You have innovation around the board surrounded by great companies. Las Vegas is innovative. We have a culture here to use technology to not only make our citizenry safer, but to insight development, to insight economic growth. So innovations not just something that is just limited to technology. It's limited to all facets of society. >> That's great culture too. You don't really have to change the culture if people are already there. What leading edge stuff are you working on now that'd be really cool to talk about? I mean smart cities, obviously, cameras on corners looking at things, so traffic, EIOT devices. What are some of the things? Share with us, open the kimono a little bit. Talk about it. >> So, first off, one thing. We do not say cameras, we say optical sensors because that's more pleasing to the ear. So, as we gather data it'll go, so go ahead. >> All right, thank you Bill. (laughter) So optical. Even I learn something every day in innovation. I mean now we have optical sensors. >> It's all optics. >> It's all optic. Let me just start with, you know public safety's very important. So we're doing some things there with our partnership with Dell and NTT. I like to call it autonomous policing. Where we're really providing real time analysis of a location. So, in the old days or current days of policing, police randomly drive around and do a patrol. That's what we call it. What we're looking at now is using cameras to provide, excuse me, optical sensors, to provide real time situational awareness to those first responders. So as they're responding to an incident, number one, there really is an incident. Because the optical sensor has validated that there is an issue there. And as the officers respond to that, they're actually able to see real time analysis from those optical sensors that's giving them a safety presence. So we're really taking policing, and really putting policing where it needs to be when it needs to be there. That's one category. The other one's mobility. We all want to get from point A to B the most convenient way possible. And what we're doing with the Dell NTT partnership and this optical sensor system, as well as analytics, is really looking at improving traffic flow, but improving traffic flow smartly. And something that's scalable that not just Las Vegas can do but any city could do across the world. Again, Las Vegas, we don't consider ourselves just a national US based innovator. We look at ourselves as world innovators. So really mobility is somewhere that can go anywhere in the world. Same with public safety. >> Talk about the architecture of innovation. How do you guys pull this off? What's the playbook? A lot of people want to be, first of all, cultural change is hard. You guys are there, like I said earlier. What's the playbook? You got to have multi-cloud architecture. You got to start thinking about getting a system set up. Either like some sort of sandbox or I've seen (mumbles) innovation zone. How do you pull it off? What's the playbook? >> I think the playbook goes down to a great team. Without a great team and great partners it doesn't matter what technology you have behind it, it's the team and partnership. That's really what makes this special. You see the bond between myself and Bill. But that goes through all levels of NTT, as far as all levels of Dell. So it's about bringing winning players and winning skill sets together, and then taking great technology and funneling around that. That is a success. Anybody can be an innovator. It's nothing special, though I'm available to help people innovate. But, I think what it really takes is understanding your business. Understanding your performance measures that you want to hit. What do you want to do? In a football team, they want to score a touchdown. In my job I want to use my resources effectively as I can and create things that are safe, and create a better Las Vegas for everybody. >> Speed is critical. It used to be the old days, months to get projects done. Then it became weeks, now it's days, hours. The shift in the time spectrum has radically changed. >> It's tough. It's tough for government. Government is traditionally not known for it's agility and speed. You know, we're changing some of that here. But we're still struggling in a couple of areas. We have some refinement to do. I think, nationwide, purchasing is hard. We want to be fair and equal to everybody. But, at the same time, we want to get these solutions out in the marketplace because it is helping the city be more effective. So, there's challenges still. But, overall, the future is very bright and the technology and expertise that our partnership has really is making, I mean, in one year I don't think any government in the US has done as much as the city of Las Vegas has with our partnership. >> I would add that Michael's being a little humble on that there's not a lot of, everybody can do innovation. We have an innovation zone that allows him the flexibility to do that. So, that's really important. And then the technology, Michael is right that it is tough. There are times that it didn't work to the schedule. But that goes back to the teamwork of everybody saying our end goal is we want to get this done, and going towards that. >> Talk about the innovation zone. Talk about the innovation zone. Is that a physical zone? is it where you can deploy new towers and test stuff? >> It's downtown Las Vegas. If you're familiar with Fremont Street, it's the big canopy area. So, it's about 80 square blocks around that area that incorporates an entertainment district, a government zone, a medical, where we basically have fiber optics. Different type of technologies and we ask partners to come in and test. But, to follow up a little bit, I'll disagree with my panelist here. You know, every city can do >> That you're not humble? (laughter) >> But every city can do innovations. It's about understanding risk and taking a little gamble and a little chance. We do that everyday in our lives, but yet when we get into out work we seem to forget about risk. >> It's a tech playground, too. You're going to attract great people when you have this kind of flexibility to just deploy. Do bake-offs, test new equipment. >> You got it. Again, so many people know Las Vegas just for what they see while they're here. Which is fun and entertainment. We want everyone to know that Las Vegas also means business. We're here to be discovered. We're here to be used. Not abused, but we're here to be used. (laughter) >> If you're bringing you equipment into you're tech zone does it stay in Vegas? (laughter) >> Everything that happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. >> It can't leave. >> Including the equipment. >> Like hotel California. >> All the equipment. Yes >> Exactly. >> I'd like to have the people remain as well. But no, I mean we're open for business. We're not just a great place to play. We're a great place to develop your products and sell product. >> So talk to us about, not just the innovation zone, but as you mentioned before, this is a challenging thing for governments and municipalities to undertake. It's expensive, right? There's a tremendous amount of people that are coming in and out of Vegas 24 by seven. When you're talking, I presume, Michael, that you're talking with you're talking with your peers in other industries about, this is why we set up an innovation zone. This is why it's so critical. Here's the advancements we've made in terms of safety in the last year. What are some of the industries that you talk to and some of your recommendations for them to take that gamble and to find the resources to make this happen? >> Well it's finding the great partners obviously is one. But two is start small. So many cities want to do, I want to replace all my street lights with smart lights. In Las Vegas that would be over a hundred thousand street lights to replace. A huge project, daunting. But why not start small? Get an understanding of the technology. Understand how it works. And then see what you like and what you don't like. And then you can go ahead and, from a small pilot, then, with the education behind you start branching out and making it bigger. And I think the key to my success is start small gain knowledge, gain success, and then build on that success. Don't try to shoot for that one shot and you're going to be a winner. >> That's great advice. What about some of those key constituents of yours, you mentioned some of the things you're doing with policing and from a government perspective. Who have been some of your key constituents to become champions of what you're doing with NTT and Dell Technologies? >> It's really the people, the people that visit here. I look at everybody as a customer. Whether you live here, play here, you're a customer of Las Vegas. And so we want you to be happy. We want you to be able to get from A to B. It doesn't do us any good if you're stuck in the car because you're not spending any money. And so, I want you excited. I want you having the best time of your life at the best restaurants. I want you having the safest experience here. I want you to return. So my objectives are no different than a private business. Except, I have the whole community. So it's when people in the community say thank you for letting us get to A to B quicker. They never thank me personally, but they're happy about it. I'm not hearing complaints about being stuck in traffic. >> Getting to A, B quicker is a lot of really long stop lights in Vegas. Any optical sensors going to help us with that? >> Taxi lights? >> You've got to come down. This year, we actually, in January we did an autonomous vehicle all the way from Mandalay Bay down to the Golden Nugget. Great technology. It worked. We're getting there. Yes, traffic is still in certain areas an issue. But come down to the innovation district. You want to drive around there it's great. >> We've got to have theCUBE there. We've got to get a tour of this. >> We've got the inside track here. >> In time. >> I know a guy in Vegas. You're out guy >> I'm your guy. (laughter) >> Guys, talk about the key learnings. You can both share some data around the journey the past couple years as technology has shifted. Obviously, apps or renaissances happening, more apps are coming over the top: Saska, cloud, partnerships or people equations happening. What's some key learnings or scar tissue that you guys have learned over the past few years that you could share to folks watching? >> I think one of the first parts is the learning is partnership and your end goal. Because, there are going to be bumps in the road as we go, and there were bumps. Things couldn't get installed as quickly. It didn't work the way we wanted. That's why we started as a proof of concept. But then the other part of the learning is start small and grow. It's not only start small in an area or even a section of the city. It's how does it grow so that you have a sustainable model for the city so they can then pay for it as they go forward. We all want to make sure that it gives us a model forward. So the openness of the NTT and Dell partnerships to allow us to have that time to do it, that was really important for us to figure a model forward. And now we're fitting into the city model a lot better. And it's making it work beyond just the innovation zone. That's where we're taking it now, and that's the key for us all. >> Mike, any learnings? >> Definitely, let me tag on to his openness. Number one is an open platform. Having a platform that's open, that your data's accessible regardless of what changes. Everybody knows technology changes rapidly. So having agility to situations. Today, right now it's mobility for me. It is public safety. But I really look to the future as curb monetization. Where we're monetizing that curb with autonomous vehicles. How do you get there? If you have a closed system that doesn't have the interface, doesn't have the agility, you can't get there. So, the open architecture is something to me that with the learning, I would have never come to that conclusion without the partnership and the learning avenues. But the open architecture is key. >> The most important question I want to ask, Michael, to you is, when the Raiders come to town, that's going to change the game big time. The Oakland Raiders, the black hole. Whole new fan base. >> I'm excited. (laughter) I'm looking for that to be, even though I live on the other side of the stadium so I have to go through there on the weekends. But I'm super excited. I'm not just excited about the game coming. I'm excited about the innovations and the new opportunities for a great city. And we have the Golden Knights you get to have a phenomenal season this year. Give them a shout out, and wait to come. I will bet you in the next year there will be some new sports franchises here. >> And the tech involvement, all kidding aside about the Raiders, it's fun to talk about because they're moving here, that's great. But the tech involved in sports is cutting edge. You've got entertainment, obviously, here inside the venues. And you've got service, managing the team, it's the same IOT problem everyone else has. >> It's in a little mini-city of it's own. It's going to have it's own IOT opportunities there. We're working closely with the stadium authority in that regard. We're sharing our experiences, sharing our partners. But, couldn't be more excited and actually, elated to have them here locally. >> Working closer to get tickets? (laughter) >> How about a suite, I was thinking suite. I'll ask for the suite. >> I'll be with the regular people. (laughter) >> Remember I'm a civil servant of the government here. Very low connections on my lane. >> Last thing, Michael for you, is we talked about the public safety issue. But, in terms of the opportunity for you to let more of the public know. There obviously have been some public incidents here that have been known the world over. It's an important message to get out to everyone. This is a global city. What are some of the opportunities that you have to share what you guys are doing with NTT and Dell Technologies so that the perspective visitors know, I'm coming into a pretty, this is a very AI enabled city that's really looking out for my best interests. >> I'm here on theCUBE. I thought if I was here >> This is it. >> everybody would know about the great things we're doing. >> That's true. >> So, beyond that though. It's part of why we're here today is to share our story and to start outreaching more. We're doing more in the community than we've done before. We're opening a great innovation center downtown. We're calling, it has many name currently now, we're trying to focus on one. But, the concept is basically a technology embassy. Where we're going around the world and sharing our story and letting companies know that they can come here and test their technology, and we can share that with the community. So, really technology is nothing without a great community that supports it. And so, a lot of what I do is sharing that message about what we're doing. We share with our partners, and we come on shows. There's only one show to come on, but this is the show, where I'm sharing what we're doing first. >> He's a quick learner. I think the thing that's been really cool for you guys to share, what NTT Dell and the city of Las Vegas are doing to turn Vegas into this AI enabled city for societal good, but it's also this whole message I think I've heard from you guys in the last 15 minutes is this is all about community, collaboration, people. We thank you both so much for giving us some time this morning on theCUBE. Now you're alumni so you've got to get stickers. And you've got to come back, 'cause this is only going in a better direction. So we're excited to hear in the next year what happens. Doug, Michael, thank you so much for your time. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Great being here. >> Appreciate it. >> Excellent. For John Furrier I'm Lisa Martin. Can you feel the buzz of Dell Technologies World 2019. Stick around we'll be right back with our next guest. (energetic music)

Okay, this presentation includes forward looking statements that are subject to risks and uncertainties. Actual results may differ materially as a result of various risk factors including those described in the 10 k's 10 q's and eight ks. Vm ware files with the SEC, ladies and gentlemen, Sunjay Buddha for the jazz mafia from Oakland, California. Good to be with you. Welcome to late night with Jimmy Fallon. I'm an early early morning with Sanjay Poonen and two are set. It's the first time we're doing a live band and jazz and blues is my favorite. You know, I prefer a career in music, playing with Eric Clapton and that abandoned software, but you know, life as a different way. I'll things. I'm delighted to have you all here. Wasn't yesterday's keynote. Just awesome. Off the charts. I mean pat and Ray, you just guys, I thought it was the best ever keynote and I'm not kissing up to the two of you. If you know pat, you can't kiss up to them because if you do, you'll get an action item list at 4:30 in the morning that sten long and you'll be having nails for breakfast with him but bad it was delightful and I was so inspired by your tattoo that I decided to Kinda fell asleep in batter ass tattoo parlor and I thought one wasn't enough so I was gonna one up with. I love Vm ware. Twenty years. Can you see that? What do you guys think? But thank you all of you for being here. It's a delight to have you folks at our conference. Twenty 5,000 of you here, 100,000 watching. Thank you to all of the vm ware employees who helped put this together. Robin Matlock, Linda, Brit, Clara. Can I have you guys stand up and just acknowledge those of you who are involved? Thank you for being involved. Linda. These ladies worked so hard to make this a great show. Everybody on their teams. It's the life to have you all here. I know that we're gonna have a fantastic time. The title of my talk is pioneers of the possible and we're going to go through over the course of the next 90 minutes or so, a conversation with customers, give you a little bit of perspective of why some of these folks are pioneers and then we're going to talk about somebody who's been a pioneer in the world but thought to start off with a story. I love stories and I was born in a family with four boys and my parents I grew up in India were immensely creative and naming that for boys. The eldest was named Sanjay. That's me. The next was named Santosh Sunday, so if you can get the drift here, it's s a n, s a n s a n and the final one. My parents got even more creative and colon suneel sun, so you could imagine my mother going south or Sunday do. I meant Sanjay you and it was always that confusion and then I come to the United States as an immigrant at age 18 and people see my name and most Americans hadn't seen many Sundays before, so they call me Sanjay. I mean, of course it of sounds like v San, so sanjay, so for all of your V, San Lovers. Then I come to California for years later work at apple and my Latino friends see my name and it sorta sounds like San Jose, so I get called sand. Hey, okay. Then I meet some Norwegian friends later on in my life, nordics. The J is a y, so I get called San Year. Your my Italian friend calls me son Joe. So the point of the matter is, whatever you call me, I respond, but there's certain things that are core to my DNA. Those that people know me know that whatever you call me, there's something that's core to me. Maybe I like music more than software. Maybe I want my tombstone to not be with. I was smart or stupid that I had a big heart. It's the same with vm ware. When you think about the engines that fuel us, you can call us the VM company. The virtualization company. Server virtualization. We seek to be now called the digital foundation company. Sometimes our competitors are not so kind to us. They call us the other things. That's okay. There's something that's core to this company that really, really stands out. They're sort of the engines that fuel vm ware, so like a plane with two engines, innovation and customer obsession. Innovation is what allows the engine to go faster, farther and constantly look at ways in which you can actually make the better and better customer obsession allows you to do it in concert with customers and my message to all of you here is that we want to both of those together with you. Imagine if 500,000 customers could see the benefit of vsphere San Nsx all above cloud foundation being your products. We've been very fortunate and blessed to innovate in everything starting with Sova virtualization, starting with software defined storage in 2009. We were a little later to kind of really on the hyperconverged infrastructure, but the first things that we innovate in storage, we're way back in 2009 when we acquired nicer and began the early works in software defined networking in 2012 when we put together desktop virtualization, mobile and identity the first time to form the digital workspace and as you heard in the last few days, the vision of a multi cloud or hybrid cloud in a virtual cloud networking. This is an amazing vision couple that innovation with an obsession and customer obsession and an NPS. Every engineer and sales rep and everybody in between is compensated on NPS. If something is not going well, you can send me an email. I know you can send pat an email. You can send the good emails to me and the bad emails to Scott Dot Beto said Bmr.com. No, I'm kidding. We want all of you to feel like you're plugged into us and we're very fortunate. This is your vote on nps. We've been very blessed to have the highest nps and that is our focus, but innovation done with customers. I shared this chart last year and it's sort of our sesame street simple chart. I tell our sales rep, this is probably the one shot that gets used the most by our sales organization. If you can't describe our story in one shot, you have 100 powerpoints, you probably have no power and very The fact of the matter is that the data center is sort of like a human body. little point. You've got your heart that's Compute, you've got the storage, maybe your lungs, you've got the nervous system that's networking and you've got the brains of management and what we're trying to do is help you make that journey to the cloud. That's the bottom part of the story. We call it the cloud foundation, the top part, and it's all serving apps. The top part of that story is the digital workspace, so very simply put that that's the desktop, moving edge and mobile. The digital workspace meets the cloud foundation. The combination is a digital foundation Where does, and we've begun this revolution with a company. That's what we end. focus on impact, not just make an impression making an impact, and there's three c's that all of us collectively have had an impact on cost very clearly. I'm going to walk you through some of that complexity and carbon and the carbon data was just fascinating to see some of that yesterday, uh, from Pat, these fierce guarded off this revolution when we started this off 20 years ago. These were stories I just picked up some of the period people would send us electricity bills of what it looked like before and after vsphere with a dramatic reduction in cost, uh, off the tune of 80 plus percent people would show us 10, sometimes 20 times a value creation from server consolidation ratios. I think of the story goes right. Intel initially sort of fought vm ware. I didn't want to have it happen. Dell was one of the first investors. Pat Michael, do I have that story? Right? Good. It's always a job fulfilling through agree with my boss and my chairman as opposed to disagree with them. Um, so that's how it got started. And true with over the, this has been an incredible story. This is kind of the revenue that you've helped us with over the 20 years of existence. Last year was about a billion but I pulled up one of the Roi Charts that somebody wrote in 2006. collectively over a year, $50 million, It might've been my esteemed colleague, Greg rug around that showed that every dollar spent on vm ware resulted in nine to $26 worth of economic value. This was in 2006. So I just said, let's say it's about 10 x of economic value, um, to you. And I think over the years it may have been bigger, but let's say conservative. It's then that $50 million has resulted in half a trillion worth of value to you if you were willing to be more generous and 20. It's 1 trillion worth of value over the that was the heart. years. Our second core product, This is one of my favorite products. How can you not like a product that has part of your name and it. We sent incredible. But the Roi here is incredible too. It's mostly coming from cap ex and op ex reduction, but mostly cap x. initially there was a little bit of tension between us and the hardware storage players. Now I think every hardware storage layer begins their presentation on hyperconverged infrastructure as the pathway to the private cloud. Dramatic reduction. We would like this 15,000 customers have we send. We want every one of the 500,000 customers. If you're going to invest in a private cloud to begin your journey with, with a a hyperconverged infrastructure v sound and sometimes we don't always get this right. This store products actually sort of the story of the of the movie seabiscuit where we sort of came from behind and vm ware sometimes does well. We've come from behind and now we're number one in this category. Incredible Roi. NSX, little not so obvious because there's a fair amount spent on hardware and the trucks would. It looks like this mostly, and this is on the lefthand side, a opex mostly driven by a little bit of server virtualization and a network driven architecture. What we're doing is not coming here saying you need to rip out your existing hardware, whether it's Cisco, juniper, Arista, you get more value out of that or more value potentially out of your Palo Alto or load balancing capabilities, but what we're saying is you can extend the life, optimize your underlay and invest more in your overlay and we're going to start doing more and software all the way from the l for the elephant seven stack firewalling application controllers and make that in networking stack, application aware, and we can dramatically help you reduce that. At the core of that is an investment hyperconverged infrastructure. We find often investments like v San could trigger the investments. In nsx we have roi tools that will help you make that even more dramatic, so once you've got compute storage and networking, you put it together. Then with a lot of other components, we're just getting started in this journey with Nsx, one of our top priorities, but you put that now with the brain. Okay, you got the heart, the lungs, the nervous system, and the brain where you do three a's, sort of like those three c's. You've got automation, you've got analytics and monitoring and of course the part that you saw yesterday, ai and all of the incredible capabilities that you have here. When you put that now in a place where you've got the full SDDC stack, you have a variety of deployment options. Number one is deploying it. A traditional hardware driven type of on premise environment. Okay, and here's the cost we we we accumulate over 2,500 pms. All you could deploy this in a private cloud with a software defined data center with the components I've talked about and the additional cost also for cloud bursting Dr because you're usually investing that sometimes your own data centers or you have the choice of now building an redoing some of those apps for public cloud this, but in many cases you're going to have to add on a cost for migration and refactoring those apps. So it is technically a little more expensive when you factor in that cost on any of the hyperscalers. We think the most economically attractive is this hybrid cloud option, like Vm ware cloud and where you have, for example, all of that Dr Capabilities built into it so that in essence folks is the core of that story. And what I've tried to show you over the last few minutes is the economic value can be extremely compelling. We think at least 10 to 20 x in terms of how we can generate value with them. So rather than me speak more than words, I'd like to welcome my first panel. Please join me in welcoming on stage. Are Our guests from brinks from sky and from National Commercial Bank of Jamaica. Gentlemen, join me on stage. Well, gentlemen, we've got a Indian American. We've got a kiwi who now lives in the UK and we've got a Jamaican. Maybe we should talk about cricket, which by the way is a very exciting sport. It lasts only five days, but nonetheless, I want to start with you Rohan. You, um, brings is an incredible story. Everyone knows the armored trucks and security. Have you driven in one of those? Have a great story and the stock price has doubled. You're a cio that brings business and it together. Maybe we can start there. How have you effectively being able to do that in bridging business and it. Thank you Sanjay. So let me start by describing who is the business, right? Who is brinks? Brinks is the number one secure logistics and cash management services company in the world. Our job is to protect our customers, most precious assets, their cash, precious metals, diamonds, jewelry, commodities and so on. You've seen our trucks in your neighborhoods, in your cities, even in countries across the world, right? But the world is going digital and so we have to ratchet up our use of digital technologies and tools in order to continue to serve our customers in a digital world. So we're building a digital network that extends all the way out to the edges and our edges. Our branches are our messengers and their handheld devices, our trucks and even our computer control safes that we place on our customer's premises all the way back to our monitoring centers are processing centers in our data centers so that we can receive events that are taking place in that cash ecosystem around our customers and react and be proactive in our service of them and at the heart of this digital business transformation is the vm ware product suite. We have been able to use the products to successfully architect of hybrid cloud data center in North America. Awesome. I'd like to get to your next, but before I do that, you made a tremendous sacrifice to be here because you just had a two month old baby. How is your sleep getting there? I've been there with twins and we have a nice little gift for you for you here. Why don't you open it and show everybody some side that something. I think your two month old will like once you get to the bottom of all that day. I've. I'm sure something's in there. Oh Geez. That's the better one. Open it up. There's a Vm, wear a little outfit for your two month. Alright guys, this is great. Thank you all. We appreciate your being here and making the sacrifice in the midst of that. But I was amazed listening to you. I mean, we think of Jamaica, it's a vacation spot. It's also an incredible place with athletes and Usain bolt, but when you, the not just the biggest bank in Jamaica, but also one of the innovators and picking areas like containers and so on. How did you build an innovation culture in the bank? Well, I think, uh, to what rughead said the world is going to dissolve and NCB. We have an aspiration to become the Caribbean's first digital bank. And what that meant for us is two things. One is to reinvent or core business processes and to, to ensure that our customers, when they interact with the bank across all channels have a, what we call the Amazon experience and to drive that, what we actually had to do was to work in two moons. Uh, the first movement we call mode one is And no two, which is stunning up a whole set of to keep the lights on, keep the bank running. agile labs to ensure that we could innovate and transform and grow our business. And the heart of that was on the [inaudible] platform. So pks rocks. You guys should try it. We're going to talk about. I'm sure that won't be the last hear from chatting, but uh, that's great. Hey, now I'd like to get a little deeper into the product with all of you folks and just understand how you've engineered that, that transformation. Maybe in sort of the order we covered in my earlier comments in speech. Rohan, you basically began the journey with the private cloud optimization going with, of course vsphere v San and the VX rail environment to optimize your private cloud. And then of course we'll get to the public cloud later. But how did that work out for you and why did you pick v San and how's it gone? So Sunday we started down this journey, the fourth quarter of 2016. And if you remember back then the BMC product was not yet a product, but we still had the vision even back then of bridging from a private data center into a public cloud. So we started with v San because it helped us tackle an important component of our data center stack. Right. And we could get on a common platform, common set of processes and tools so that when we were ready for the full stack, vmc would be there and it was, and then we could extend past that. So. Awesome. And, and I say Dave with a name like Dave Matthews, you must have like all these musicians, like think you're the real date, my out back. What's your favorite Dave Matthew's song or it has to be crashed into me. Right. Good choice rash. But we'll get to music another time. What? NSX was obviously a big transformational capability, February when everyone knows what sky and media and wireless and all of that stuff. Networking is at the core of what you do. Why did you pick Nsx and what have you been able to achieve with it? So I mean, um, yeah, I mean there's, like I say, sky's yeah, maybe your organization. It's incredibly fast moving industry. It's very innovative. We've got a really clever people in, in, in, in house and we need to make sure our product guys and our developers can move at pace and yeah, we've got some great. We've got really good quality metric guys. They're great guys. But the problem is that traditional networking is just fundamentally slow is there's, there's not much you can do about it, you know, and you know to these agile teams here to punch a ticket, get a file, James. Yeah. That's just not reality. We're able to turn that round so that the, the, the devops ops and developers, they can just use terraform and do everything. Yeah, it's, yeah, we rigs for days to seconds and that's in the Aes to seconds with an agile software driven approach and giving them much longer because it would have been hardware driven. Absolutely. And giving the tool set to the do within boundaries. You have scenes with boundaries, developers so they can basically just do, they can do it all themselves. So you empower the developers in a very, very important way. Within a second you had, did you use our insight tools too on top of that? So yes, we're considered slightly different use case. I mean, we're, yeah, we're in the year. You've got general data protection regulations come through and that's, that's, that's a big deal. And uh, and the reality is from what an organization's compliance isn't getting right? So what we've done been able to do is any convenience isn't getting any any less, using vr and ai and Nsx, we're able to essentially micro segment off a lot of Erica our environments which have a lot, much higher compliance rate and you've got in your case, you know, plenty of stores that you're managing with visa and tens of thousands of Vms to annex. This is something at scale that both of you have been able to achieve about NSX and vsn. Pretty incredible. And what I also like with the sky story is it's very centered around Dev ops and the Dev ops use case. Okay, let's come to your Ramon. And obviously I was, when I was talking to the Coobernetti's, uh, you know, our Kubernetes Platform, team pks, and they told me one of the pioneer and customers was National Commercial Bank of Jamaica. I was like, wow, that's awesome. Let's bring you in. And when we heard your story, it's incredible. Why did you pick Coobernetti's as the container platform? You have many choices of what you could have done in terms of companies that are other choices. Why did you pick pks? So I think, well, what happened to, in our interviews cases, we first looked at pcf, which we thought was a very good platform as well. Then we looked at the integration you can get with pqrs, the security, the overland of Nsx, and it made sense for us to go in that direction because you offered 11 team or flexibility on our automation that we could drive through to drive the business. So that was the essence of the argument that we had to make. So the key part with the NSX integration and security and, and the PKS. Uh, and while we've got a few more chairs from the heckler there, I want you to know, Chad, I've got my pks socks on. That's how much I had so much fear. And if he creates too much trouble with security, we can be emotional. I'm out of the arena, you know. Anyway. Um, I wanted to put this chart up because it's very important for all of you, um, and the audience to know that vm ware is making a significant commitment to Coobernetti's. Uh, we feel that this is, as pat talked about it before, something that's going to be integrated into everything we do. It's going to become like a dial tone. Um, and this is just the first of many things you're going to see a vm or really take this now as a consistent thing. And I think we have an opportunity collectively because a lot of people think, oh, you know, containers are a threat to vm ware. We actually think it's a headwind that's going to become a tailwind for us. Just the same way public cloud has been. So thank you for being one of our pioneer and early customers. And Are you using the kubernetes platform in the context of running in a vsphere environment? Yes, we are. We're onto Venice right now. Uh, we have. Our first application will be a mobile banking APP which will be launched in September and all our agile labs are going to be on pbs moving forward medic. So it's really a good move for us. Dave, I know that you've, not yet, I mean you're looking in the context potentially about is your, one of the use cases of Nsx for you containers and how do you view Nsx in that? Absolutely. For us that was the big thing about t when it refresh rocked up is that the um, you know, not just, you know, Sda and on a, on vsphere, but sdn on openstack sdn into their container platform and we've got some early visibility of the, uh, of the career communities integration on there and yeah, it was, it was done right from the start and that's why when we talked to the pks Yeah, it's, guys again, the same sort of thing. it's, it's done right from the start. And so yeah, certainly for us, the, the NSX, everywhere as they come and control plane as a very attractive proposition. Good. Ron, I'd like to talk to you a little bit about how you viewed the public, because you mentioned when we started off this journey, we didn't have Mr. Cloud and aws, we approached to when we were very early on in that journey and you took a bet with us, but it was part of your data center reduction. You're kind of trying to almost to obliterate one data center as you went from three to one. Tell us that story and how the collaboration worked out on we amber cloud. What's the use case? So as I said, our vision was always to bridge to a So we wanted to be able to use public cloud environments to incubate new public cloud, right? applications until they stabilize to flex to the cloud. And ultimately disaster recovery in the cloud. That was the big use case for us. We ran a traditional data center environment where, you know, we run across four regions in the world. Each region had two to three data centers. One was the primary and then usually you had a disaster recovery center where you had all your data hosted, you had certain amount of compute, but it was essentially a cold center, right? It, it sat idle, you did your test once a year. That's the environment we were really looking to get out of. Once vmc was available, we were able to create the same vm ware environment that we currently have on prem in the cloud, right? The same network and security stack in both places and we were actually able to then decommission our disaster recovery data center, took it off, it's took it off and we move. We've got our, our, all of our mission critical data now in the, uh, in the, uh, aws instance using BMC. We have a small amount of compute to keep it warm, but thanks to the vm ware products, we have the ability now to ratchet that up very quickly in a Dr situation, run production in the cloud until we stabilized and then bring that workload back. Would it be fair to tell everybody here, if you are looking at a Dr or that type of bursting scenario, there's no reason to invest in a on premise private cloud. That's really a perfect use case of We, I know certainly we had breaks. this, right? Sorry. Exactly. Yeah. We will no longer have a, uh, a physical Dr a center available anywhere. So you've optimized your one data center with the private cloud stack will be in cloud foundation effectively starting off a decent and you've optimized your hybrid cloud journey, uh, with we cloud. I know we're early on in the journey with Nsx and branch, so we'll come back to that conversation may next year we discover new things about this guy I just found out last night that he grew up in the same town as me in Bangalore and went to the same school. So we will keep a diary of the schools at rival schools, but the last few years with the same school, uh, Dave, as you think about the future of where you want to this use case of network security, what are some of the things that are on your radar over the course of the next couple of months and quarters? So I think what we're really trying to do is, um, you know, computers, this is a critical thing decided technology conference, computers and networks are a bit boring, but rather we want to make them boring. We want to basically sweep them away from so that our people, our customers, our internal customers don't have to think about it were the end that we can make him, that, that compliance, that security, that whole, that whole framework around it. Um, regardless of where that work, right live as living on premise, off premise, everywhere you know. And, and even Aisha potentially out out to the edge. How big were your teams? Very quickly, as we wrap up this, how big are the teams that you have working on network is what was amazing. I talked to you was how nimble and agile you're with lean teams. How big was your team? The, the team during the, uh, the SDDC stack is six people. Six, six. Eight. Wow. There's obviously more that more. And we're working on that core data center and your boat to sleep between five and seven people. For it to brad to both for the infrastructure and containers. Yes. Rolling on your side. It's about the same. Amazing. Well, very quickly maybe 30 seconds. Where do you see the world going? Rolling. So, you know, it brings, I pay attention to two things. One is Iot and we've talked a little bit about that, but what I'm looking for there as digital signals continue to grow is injecting things like machine learning and artificial intelligence in line into that flow back so we can make more decisions closer to the source. Right. And the second thing is about cash. So even though cash volume is increasing, I mean here we are in Vegas, the number one cash city in the US. I can't ignore the digital payments and crypto currency and that relies on blockchain. So focusing on what role does blockchain play in the global world as we go forward and how can brings, continue to bring those services, blockchain and Iot. Very rare book. Well gentlemen, thank you for being with us. It's a pleasure and an honor. Ladies and gentlemen, give it up for three guests. Well, um, thank you very much. So as you saw there, it's great to be able to see and learn from some of these pioneering customers and the hopefully the lesson you took away was wherever your journey is, you could start potentially with the private cloud, embark on the journey to the public cloud and then now comes the next part which is pretty exciting, which is the journey off the desktop and removal what digital workspace. And that's the second part of this that I want to explore with a couple of customers, but before I do that, I wanted to set the context of why. What we're trying to do here also has economic value. Hopefully you saw in the first set of charts the economic value of starting with the heart, the lungs, any of that software defined data center and moving to the ultimate hybrid cloud had economic value. We feel the same thing here and it's because of fundamental shift that started off in the last seven, 10 years since iphone. The fact of the matter is when you look at your fleet of your devices across tablets, phones and laptops today is a heterogeneous world. Twenty years ago when the company started, it was probably all Microsoft devices, laptops now phones, tablets. It's a mixture and it was going to be a mixture for the rest of them. I think for the foreseeable time, with very strong, almost trillion market cap companies and in this world, our job is to ensure that heterogeneous digital workspace can be very easily managed and secured. I have a little soft corner for this business because the first three years of my five years here, I ran this business, so I know a thing about these products, but the fact of the matter is that I think the opportunity here is if you think about the 7 billion people in the world, a billion of them are working for some company or the other. The others are children or may not be employed or retired and every one of them have a phone today. Many of them phones and laptops and they're mixed and our job is to ensure that we bring simplicity to this place. You saw a little bit that cacophony yesterday and Pat's chart, and unfortunately a lot of today's world of managing and securing that disparate is a mountain of morass. Okay? No offense to any of the vendors named in there, but it shouldn't be your job to be that light piece of labor at the top of the mountain to put it all together, which costs you potentially at least $50 per user per month. We can make the significantly cheaper with a unified platform, workspace one that has all of those elements, so how have we done that? We've taken those fundamental principles at 70 percent, at least reduction of simplicity and security. A lot of the enterprise companies get security, right, but we don't get simplicity all always right. Many of the consumer companies like right? But maybe it needs some help and facebook, it's simplicity, security and we've taken both of those and said it is possible for you to actually like your user experience as opposed to having to really dread your user experience in being able to get access to applications and how we did this at vm ware, was he. We actually teamed with the Stanford Design School. We put many of our product managers through this concept of design thinking. It's a really, really useful concept. I'd encourage every one of you. I'm not making a plug for the Stanford design school at all, but some very basic principles of viability, desirability, feasibility that allow your product folks to think like a consumer, and that's the key goal in undoing that. We were able to design of these products with the type of simplicity but not compromise at all. Insecurity, tremendous opportunity ahead of us and it gives me great pleasure to bring onstage now to guests that are doing some pioneering work, one from a partner and run from a customer. Please join me in welcoming Maria par day from dxc and John Market from adobe. Thank you, Maria. Thank you Maria and John for being with us. Maria, I want to start with you. A DXC is the coming together of two companies and CSC and HP services and on the surface on the surface of it, I think it was $50,000, 100,000. If it was exact numbers, most skeptics may have said such a big acquisition is probably going to fail, but you're looking now at the end of that sort of post merger and most people would say it's been a success. What's made the dxc coming together of those two very different cultures of success? Well, first of all, you have to credit a lot of very creative people in the space. One of the two companies came together, but mostly it is our customers who are making us successful. We are choosing to take our customers the next generation digital platform. The message is resonating, the cultures have come together, the individuals have come together, the offers have come together and it's resonating in the marketplace, in the market and with our customers and with our partners. So you shouldn't have doubted it. I, I wasn't one of the skeptics, maybe others were. And my understanding is the d and the C Yes. If, and dxc is the digital and customer. if you look at the logo, it's, it's more of an infinity, so digital transformation for customers. But truthfully it's um, we wanted to have a new start to some very powerful companies in the industry and it really was a instead of CSC and HP, a new logo and a new start. And I think, you know, if this resonates very well with what I started off my keynote, which is talking about innovation and customers focused on digital and Adobe, obviously not just a household name, customers, John, many of folks who use your products, but also you folks have written the playbook on a transformation of on premise going cloud, right? A SAS products and now we've got an incredible valuations relative. How has that affected the way you think in it in terms of a cloud first type of philosophy? Uh, too much of how you implement, right? From an IT perspective, we're really focused on the employee experience. And so as we transitioned our products to the cloud, that's where we're working towards as well from an it, it's all about innovation and fostering that ability for employees to create and do some amazing products. So many of those things I talked about like design thinking, uh, right down the playbook, what adobe does every day and does it affect the way in which you build, sorry, deploy products 92. Yeah, I mean fundamentally it comes down to those basics viability and the employee experience. And we've believe that by giving employees choice, we're enabling them to do amazing work. Rhonda, Maria, you obviously you were in the process of rolling out some our technology inside dxc. So I want to focus less on the internal implementation as much as what you see from other clients I shared sort of that mountain of harassed so much different disparate tools. Is that what you hear from clients and how are you messaging to them, what you think the future of the digital workspaces. And I joined partnership. Well Sanjay, your picture was perfect because if you look at the way end user compute infrastructure had worked for years, decades in the past, exactly what we're doing with vm ware in terms of automation and driving that infrastructure to the cloud in many ways. Um, companies like yours and mine having the courage to say the old way of on prem is the way we made our license fees, the way move made our professional services in the past. And now we have to quickly take our customers to a new way of working, a fast paced digital cloud transformation. We see it in every customer that we're dealing with everyday of the week What are some of the keyboard? Every vertical. I mean we're, we're seeing a lot in the healthcare and in a variety of verticals. industry. I'm one of the compelling things that we're seeing in the marketplace right now is the next gen worker in terms of the GIG economy. I'm employees might work for one company at 10:00 in the morning and another company at We have to be able to stand those employees are 10 99 employees up very 2:00 in the afternoon. quickly, contract workers from around the world and do it securely with governance, risk and compliance quickly. Uh, and we see that driving a lot of the next generation infrastructure needs. So the users are going from a company like dxc with 160,000 employees to what we think in the future will be another 200, 300,000 of 'em, uh, partners and contract workers that we still have to treat with the same security sensitivity and governance of our w two employees. Awesome. John, you were one of the pioneer and customers that we worked with on this notion of unified endpoint management because you were sort of a similar employee base to Vm ware, 20,000 odd employees, 1000 plus a and you've got a mixture of devices in your fleet. Maybe you can give us a little bit of a sense. What percentage do you have a windows and Mac? So depending on the geography is we're approximately 50 percent windows 50 slash 50 windows and somewhat similar to how vm ware operates. What is your fleet of mobile phones look like in terms of primarily ios? We have maybe 80 slash 20 or 70 slash 20 a apple and Ios? Yes. Tablets override kinds. It's primarily ios tablets. So you probably have something in the order of, I'm guessing adding that up. Forty or 50,000 devices, some total of laptops, tablets, phones. Absolutely split 60 slash 60,000. Sixty thousand plus. Okay. And a mixture of those. So heterogeneities that gear. Um, and you had point tools for many of those in terms of managing secure in that. Why did you decide to go with workspace one to simplify that, that management security experience? Well, you nailed it. It's all about simplification and so we wanted to take our tools and provide a consistent experience from an it perspective, how we manage those endpoints, but also for our employee population for them to be able to have a consistent experience across all of their devices. In the past it was very disconnected. It was if you had an ios device, the experience might look like this if you had a window is it would look like go down about a year ago is to bring that together again, this. And so our journey that we've started to simplicity. We want to get to a place where an employee can self provision their desktop just like they do their mobile device today. And what would, what's your expectations that you go down that journey of how quickly the onboarding time should, should be for an employee? It should be within 15, 20 minutes. We need to, we need to get it very rapid. The new hire orientation process needs to really be modified. It's no longer acceptable from everything from the it side ever to just the other recruiting aspects. An employee wants to come and start immediately. They want to be productive, they want to make contributions, and so what we want to do from an it perspective is get it out of the way and enable employees to be productive as And the onboarding then could be one way you latch him on and they get workspace quickly as possible. one. Absolutely. Great. Um, let's talk a little bit as we wrap up in the next few minutes, or where do you see the world going in terms of other areas that are synergistic, that workspace one collaboration. Um, you know, what are some of the things that you hear from clients? What's the future of collaboration? We're actually looking towards a future where we're less dependent on email. So say yes to that real real time collaboration. DXC is doing a lot with skype for business, a yammer. I'll still a lot with citrix, um, our tech teams and our development teams use slack and our clients are using everything, so as an integrator to this space, we see less dependent on the asynchronous world and a lot more dependence on the synchronous world and whatever tools that you can have to create real time. Um, collaboration. Now you and I spoke a little last night talking about what does that mean to life work balance when there's always a demanding realtime collaboration, but we're seeing an uptick in that and hopefully over the next few years a slight downtick in, in emails because that is not necessarily the most direct way to communicate all the time. And, and in that process, some of that sort of legacy environment starts to get replaced with newer tools, whether it's slack or zoom or we're in a similar experience. All of the above. All of the above. Are you finding the same thing, John Environment? Yeah, we're moving away. There's, I think what you're going to see transition is email becomes more of the reporting aspect, the notification, but the day to day collaboration is me to products like slack are teams at Adobe. We're very video focused and so even though we may be a very global team around the world, we will typically communicate over some form of video, whether it be blue jeans or Jabber or Blue Jeans for your collaboration. Yeah. whatnot. We've internally, we use Webex and, and um, um, and, and zoom in and also a lot of slack and we're happy to announce, I think at the work breakouts, we'll hear about the integration of workspace one with slack. We're doing a lot with them where I want to end with a final question with you. Obviously you're very passionate about a cause that we also love and I'm passionate about and we're gonna hear more about from Malala, which is more women in technology, diversity and inclusion and you know, especially there's a step and you are obviously a role model in doing that. What would you say to some of the women here and others who might be mentors to women in technology of how they can shape that career? Um, I think probably the women here are already rocking it and doing what you need to do. So mentoring has been a huge part of my career in terms of people mentoring me and if not for the support and I'm real acceptance of the differences that I brought to the workplace. I wouldn't, I wouldn't be sitting here today. So I think I might have more advice for the men than the women in the room. You're all, you have daughters, you have sisters, you have mothers and you have women that you work every day. Um, whether you know it or not, there is an unconscious bias out there. So when you hear things from your sons or from your daughters, she's loud. She's a little odd. She's unique. How about saying how wonderful is that? Let's celebrate that and it's from the little go to the top. So that would be, that would be my advice. I fully endorse that. I fully endorse that all of us men need to hear that we have put everyone at Vm ware through unconscious bias that it's not enough. We've got to keep doing it because it's something that we've got to see. I want my daughter to be in a place where the tech world looks like society, which is not 25, 30 percent. Well no more like 50 percent. Thank you for being a role model and thank you for both of you for being here at our conference. It's my pleasure. Thank you Thank you very much. Maria. Maria and John. So you heard you heard some of that and so that remember some of these things that I shared with you. I've got a couple of shirts here with these wonderful little chart in here and I'm not gonna. Throw it to the vm ware crowd. Raise your hand if you're a customer. Okay, good. Let's see how good my arm is. There we go. There's a couple more here and hopefully this will give you a sense of what we are trying to get done in the hybrid cloud. Let's see. That goes there and make sure it doesn't hit anybody. Anybody here in the middle? Right? There we go. Boom. I got two more. Anybody here? I decided not to bring an air gun in. That one felt flat. Sorry. All. There we go. One more. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much, but this is what we're trying to get that diagram once again is the cloud foundation. Folks. The bottom part, done. Very simply. Okay. I'd love a world one day where the only The top part of the diagram is the digital workspace. thing you heard from Ben, where's the cloud foundation? The digital workspace makes them cloud foundation equals a digital foundation company. That's what we're trying to get done. This ties absolutely a synchronously what you heard from pat because everything starts with that. Any APP, a kind of perspective of things and then below it are these four types of clouds, the hybrid cloud, the Telco Cloud, the cloud and the public cloud, and of course on top of it is device. I hope that this not just inspired you in terms of picking up a few, the nuggets from our pioneers. The possible, but every one of the 25,000 view possible, the 100,000 of you who are watching this will take people will meet at all the vm world and before forums. the show on the road and there'll be probably 100,000 We want every one of you to be a pioneer. It is absolutely possible for that to happen because that pioneering a capability starts with every one of you. Can we give a hand once again for the five customers that were onstage with us? That's great.

>> Live, from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering VMworld 2018. Brought to you by VMware and its eco-system partners. >> Welcome back, this is theCUBE's coverage of VMworld 2018, three days live coverage, kicking-off day two. On the right set, Michael Dell himself is talking. But I'm even more excited, because when we get to talk to the users here. That's what we love doing; talking, peers talking to their peers. I'm Stu Miniman, my guest host for this segment is, Joep Piscaer. Who's actually a user himself, and joining me, first time on the program, is PJ Romero who is the Principal IT Engineer at Turnitin, out of Oakland. >> Out of Oakland. >> Thanks for joining us. >> Thanks for having me, Stu. >> All right, so, PJ, first of all, your forth year at VMworld. Give us your initial impressions, and what brings you back to VMworld? >> VMworld is just getting, re-upping my education, so I'm learning more stuff, seeing what's new on the horizon, to get implemented in my situation. >> All right, you talk about learning more stuff. Tell us about Turnitin. Explain what this is and, you know, I think it'll resonate with a lot of our audience. >> Right. Turnitin is plagiarism detection software. So we're probably in most major universities throughout the world, really big in Europe and here at major universities. >> Okay. >> And we are also in the high school, high school down. >> Okay. Ya, I was wondering about that. My daughter actually starts high school tomorrow, so, make sure she understands that this is serious stuff. I mean, talk about education, I mean, heck, in this community when you talk about certification people are always worried about you know, tests getting out. >> Exactly. >> Things like that. >> Exactly. >> We take education seriously. >> Exactly. >> As a community, as we should. And your role at the company? >> My role; I'm the Principal IT Engineer, so basically I architect the corporate infrastructure, aside from the Turnitin papers. So I manage global infrastructure. >> Before we get into, you know, kind of the infrastructure itself, the business itself. How long has it been around? How long have you been in there? And what is the kind of, you know, mobile-web, digital-transformation impact your business? >> Oh, so everything's mobile now. Everything's on the web. We've migrated out there. We've moved out to the Cloud. And how it's migrated us, so, Turnitin's been around for about 20 years. We just uploaded our billionth paper a few weeks ago. So we have about nine petabytes worth of data to pull from. >> Oh wow. >> So you can imagine how we're getting that from our data centers into the Cloud. With nine petabytes, it's been a challenge. So recently we virtualized some VMware and to make that transition, we had rows and rows of servers to move them out; to virtualize. >> So nine terabytes. That's a lot of data. >> Petabytes. >> Petabytes even. >> Petabytes, ya. >> So tell me, how does that work from a tech perspective? What are you, what are you running, what's that tech stack look like? >> Well, Turnitin is actually a home-grown infrastructure from the ground for the storage. So it's highly available, it's highly redundant, we have multiple data centers new with the GDPR requirements. Now we have data centers in Europe, and we're moving all over the country. We're looking at EMA, APAC, and then South America. (laughing) Get it out there somewhere. >> So you're running your own data centers? >> Yes. >> I presume. >> Yes, we're running our own data centers. >> What does that mean for your hybrid cloud strategy? How much is in your data center? What are you considering to move to the Cloud? How does that impact your business? >> So right now we're probably 75%, 25% and, you know, with the Cloud being elastic as it is, as term papers come up, we're spinning them out. You know, so we're moving. >> Great, okay. So you're virtualized. Do you know what percentage of your applications are virtualized? And maybe walk us through a little bit about the stacks that you have, both on premises, as well as who you use for a public cloud. >> Oh, so we're using AWS and we're also, I think we use, some Google stuff. And Desrrve for some of the development. So we're using all of them, basically; to make sure we're fluid that way. We also do, all the applications, all the web servers are virtualized, and put up in the Cloud. But the main guts of it is still on premise. >> Okay, and what's that stack look like on premises? Who are you using today? >> As far as. >> Like, your whole infrastructure stacks? >> All the infrastructure has been super micro. >> Okay. >> Ya. >> But you're using like, an HCI solution? >> The corporate is. >> Okay. >> The corporate. Ya, I manage the corporate infrastructure. >> Right. >> Ya, we use HCI Solution. >> So whose are you're using. >> I'm using Nutanix. >> Okay. >> Ya. >> Great. So why don't you tell us a little bit about how you got to Nutanix. What apps you use that for? What apps you don't use that for? Maybe help to ease that out a little bit for us. >> Ya, of course. So I have the corporate infrastructure started out when I got there three years ago. I had server-sprawl. I had all physical serves. They weren't virtualizing yet and I got in there and was like, why not? So I did a small PoC with a couple of servers in a NAS that I built homemade and put VMware on it and said, look, this stuff works great. I can move stuff back. I can kill this box. And they were like, wow, that's pretty cool! And then I got a business intelligence project for the financial services. So they were doing some really high-end modeling based on Oracle database, and needed something redundant, powerful and fast to deploy. Well, that was the problem. It was going to take six weeks to get servers in, get them configured, stacked. I got Nutanix in within two weeks. So got Nutanix in there, I think I spent more time convincing them that this is really a to you box and I'm going to stick all our stuff in there, we started out with the three node unit, and got VMware on there to show them what I was doing, and then we deployed our Oracle stack in no time. >> So tell a little about the cost-model behind it. Has it changed the way, using HCI, has it changed the way you do business? Has is made it easier, cheaper faster? >> It's made it cheaper and faster. For me, easier, I don't say the easy part too much 'cause then they wonder what I'm doing. But it's really easy. (laughing) >> Yeah, that's interesting. When you talk about you've had homegrown stuff before. >> Yeah. >> Verses now. I've talked to some Nutanix customers they say, like hey, I got my nights and weekends back. >> Yeah. >> I don't have to worry about so many of the other pieces, maybe you talk a little bit about that dynamic. Did you have any change in personnel? Or who manages what after, or is it you? >> So I'm it. But with the ability to put Nutanix in there and ease of use, I give them access to the dashboards and show them how things work. It's been really simple, especially for some of my newer guys, the younger sys admins, who don't understand virtualization and it's still kind of magic for everybody. But now they got one dashboard. Green heart means good. Everything else, look at it. >> So you're saying you're the wizard now. >> I'm the wizard. >> Pay no attention behind the curtain. (laughing) It got really easy, but I'll just keep that behind. I can do more stuff and I'll just be the superhero. >> Yeah, exactly, exactly. It made my monitoring easier for them and my guys love it. They really love it. >> Tell a little bit about how you're using Nutanix. So Nutanix started-out as a virtualization, pure HCI company, but they've broadened their portfolio. So tell us a little bit about how you're using the Nutanix solution inside of your data centers. >> Right, so originally I put Nutanix with a virtualization product or the financial product. I was able to get a forth node. So I was able to use their analytics in there and say, hey, we're going to run out of space. So I'm running 47 machines on four nodes and I still have high redundancy. But I had no back-ups. So what do we do? So I got a second box, I put it inside of one of my other data centers and used that for replication in the back. And now with the Zy coming out, I'm going to start pushing that up to the Cloud, and start moving my single data center, toothpick as it were, it's going to be in the Cloud quickly. >> And you mentioned Oracle's, the application that catalyzed this. All certified, didn't have any issues. >> No issues. >> That's awesome. >> It was great. >> Those of us in the virtualization community, how many years did we spend just virtualizing Oracle, let alone, every new platform. It's challenging. >> Exactly. >> Your peers? All clear? They don't have to worry about it? >> Oh ya, they love it, they love it. They can't believe I got it all in the to you box. I like to take the picture of it and say, here's their stuff. I don't need this big stack, I just need the little box. (laughing) >> So basically, your whole operational model changed I'm guessing? You're not spending as much time anymore on operational issues. >> No. It's more of architecture now. We start moving the Cloud. I'm getting away from virtualizing more of the applications that we use. We just use basic active directory and DNS and that stuff. So it's all fine but, I'm going to start moving it so I push the button it will be in the Cloud, and I can literally lose my data center. >> Talk a little bit about the Zy. We've heard a lot the vision, so what's the roadmap for you to kind of embrace, adopt that? What's interesting to you about it? >> For me, I'm going to take the financial stack and really moving it right now in the tip is re-iping, it's a lot of back-end work. With the Zy, it should be a click and I mean, I've seen the database, so we're talking right now to get that done. It should be a click of the button and it's going to spin me up an AWS. So that's where I'm going next with my next project. That looks pretty cool. >> Okay, the rest of your applications, will you expand your Nutanix environment? Is this something to help you deal with that hybrid cloud environment? >> Yeah. >> What does the future look like? >> If I have my way, as I age-out my remote sites, we'll be putting more Nutanix out there. And then I can do more three to one back-ups. >> That frees-up even more time to be spending on future architecture. >> Yep, exactly. >> Instead of just the operational stuff. >> Yep, I'm making it so we can lose any leg and we're going to be fine. >> One of the things that everyone's poking at at this show is that whole multi-cloud environment. We said, I can make my data center kind of simple today. >> Yeah. >> But, multi-cloud, most people, at least I talked to, it's not simple. The Cloud is a little bit complex, it's not just swipe a credit card anymore. Managing between multiple environments, depending on how many clouds you have. What have you seen today? What would you like to see get even better over time? >> I'd like to see where Nutanix is going really, with the single-environment. I want to go one-spot. And right now I'm going to one-spot for my virtualization and all my on-prem stuff, but as I move up to the Cloud and spin stuff up, I want to go to the same spot. I don't want to have to think about it so much. Simple is good for me. I'm big in the KISS system. (laughing) >> Absolutely. Keep it simple. >> That's right. >> Engineering design, absolutely. >> I imagine your role is changing as well, right? It is becoming simpler, you get to spend more time on new projects. How is your role changing as an IT Engineer? >> I'm getting to think more. I'm not reactive anymore at all. When I got there it was a very reactive environment. And now it is more on design and how we can make sure we can tighten-up securities. We went through a whole bunch of new sox audits. And it's made it simple. It's made it simple for me. We're all in compliance now within the physical hardware and security and now, some of the other touches I'm able to think about and get those implemented. >> So outside of the Nutanix stuff, at VMworld, what kind of things are you digging into, learning, anything excite you that you either heard from your peers or announcements or sessions you've been in? >> VDI is still exciting to me. I'm still looking at those projects, and I have just enough space to do a PoC on my stuff, so I'm talking to management about that. As soon as I can show them they can do anything, from a web browser, I'd like to give them Chrome Books, and say, have a nice day. (laughing) >> It's funny you say that, because most people think of the HCI space and like, you start with VDI. And now you're like, oh well now I've got some fair capacity, I'm guessing. I can put in environment, manage it. Yeah, do some of the dynamics inside the company sounds like they're some of the bigger challenges. Always for VDI, has been a challenge. >> Yeah, it's always a challenge but so far, everything I've said's worked for them, so I've got a good trust-base. >> PJ Romero, really appreciate you talking about Turnitin. No plagiarism at this show, right? (laughing) >> That's right. We'll check. (laughing) >> PJ Romero, Turnitin, really appreciate you joining us. For you, Piscaer, I'm Stu Miniman. Lots more coverage. Wall-to-wall, here at VMworld2018. Thanks so much for watching theCUBE. (techno music)

>> From Boston, Massachusetts, it's the cube. covering LiveWorx 18, brought to you by PTC. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back to the Boston Seaport everybody. My name is David Vellante, I'm here with my co-host Stu Miniman and you're watching the cube, the leader in live tech coverage. We're at LiveWorx PTC's big IOT conference. Jaron Lanier is here, he's the father of virtual reality and the author of Dawn of the New Everything. Papa, welcome. >> Hey there. >> What's going on? >> Hey, how's it going? >> It's going great. How's the show going for you? It's cool, it's cool. It's, it's fine. I'm actually here talking about this other book a little bit too, but, yeah, I've been having a lot of fun. It's fun to see how hollow lens applied to a engines and factories. It's been really cool to see people seeing the demos. Mixed reality. >> Well, your progeny is being invoked a lot at the show. Everybody's sort of talking about VR and applying it and it's got to feel pretty good. >> Yeah, yeah. It seems like a VR IoT blockchain are the sort of the three things. >> Wrap it all with digital transformation. >> Yeah, digital transformation, right. So what we need is a blockchain VR IoT solution to transform something somewhere. Yeah. >> So tell us about this new book, what it's called? >> Yeah. This is called the deleting all your social media accounts right now. And I, I realize most people aren't going to do it, but what I'm trying to do is raise awareness of how the a psychological manipulation algorithms behind the system we're having an effect on society and I think I love the industry but I think we can do better and so I'm kind of agitating a bit here. >> Well Jaron, I was reading up a little bit getting ready for the interview here and people often will attack the big companies, but you point at the user as, you know, we need to kind of take back and we have some onus ourselves as to what we use, how we use it and therefore can have impact on, on that. >> Well, you know, what I've been finding is that within the companies and Silicon Valley, a lot of the top engineering talent really, really wants to pursue ethical solutions to the problem, but feels like our underlying business plan, the advertising business plan keeps on pulling us back because we keep on telling advertisers we have yet new ways to kind of do something to tweak the behaviors of users and it kind of gradually pulls us into this darker and darker territory. The thing is, there's always this assumption, oh, it's what users want. They would never pay for something the way they pay for Netflix, they would never pay for social media that way or whatever it is. The thing is, we've never asked users, nobody's ever gone and really checked this out. So I'm going to, I'm kind of putting out there as a proposition and I think in the event that users turn out to really want more ethical social media and other services by paying for them, you know, I think it's going to create this enormous sigh of relief in the tech world. I think it's what we all really want. >> Well, I mean ad-based business models that there's a clear incentive to keep taking our data and doing whatever you want with it, but, but perhaps there's a better way. I mean, what if you're, you're sort of proposing, okay, maybe users would be willing to pay for various services, which is probably true, but what if you were able to give users back control of their data and let them monetize their data. What are your thoughts on that? >> Yeah, you know, I like a lot of different solutions, like personally, if it were just up to me, if I ran the world, which I don't, but if I ran the world, I can make every single person of the world into a micro-entrepreneur where they can package, sell and price their data the way they want. They can, they can form into associations with others to do it. And they can also purchase data from others as they want. And I think what we'd see is this flowering of this giant global marketplace that would organize itself and would actually create wonders. I really believe that however, I don't run the world and I don't think we're going to see that kind of perfect solution. I think we're going to see something that's a bit rougher. I think we might see something approximating that are getting like a few steps towards that, but I think we are going to move away from this thing where like right now if two people want to do anything on online together, the only way that's possible is if there's somebody else who's around to pay them, manipulate them sneakily and that's stupid. I mean we can be better than that and I'm sure we will. >> Yeah, I'm sure we will too. I mean we think, we think blockchain and smart contracts are a part of that solution and obviously a platform that allows people to do exactly what you just described. >> And, and you know, it's funny, a lot of things that sounded radical a few years ago are really not sounding too radical. Like you mentioned smart contracts. I remember like 10 years ago for sure, but even five years ago when you talked about this, people are saying, oh no, no, no, no, no, this, the world is too conservative. Nobody's ever going to want to do this. And the truth is people are realizing that if it makes sense, you know, it makes sense. And, and, and, and so I think, I think we're really seeing like the possibilities opening up. We're seeing a lot of minds opening, so it's kind of an exciting time. >> Well, something else that I'd love to get your thoughts on and we think a part of that equation is also reputation that if you, if you develop some kind of reputation system that is based on the value that you contribute to the community, that affects your, your reputation and you can charge more if you have a higher reputation or you get dinged if you're promoting fake news. That that reputation is a linchpin to the successful community like that. >> Well, right now the problem is because, in the free model, there's this incredible incentive to just sort of get people to do things instead of normal capitalist. And when you say buy my thing, it's like you don't have to buy anything, but I'm going to try to trick you into doing something, whatever it is. And, and, and if you ever direct commercial relationship, then the person who's paying the money starts to be a little more demanding. And the reason I'm bringing that up is that right now there's this huge incentive to create false reputation. Like in reviews, a lot of, a lot of the reviews are fake, followers a lot of them are fake instance. And so there's like this giant world of fake stuff. So the thing is right now we don't have reputation, we have fake reputation and the way to get real reputation instead of think reputation is not to hire an army of enforcing us to go around because the company is already doing that is to change the financial incentives so you're not incentivizing criminals, you know I mean, that's incentives come first and then you can do the mop up after that, but you have to get the incentives aligned with what you want. >> You're here, and I love the title of the book. We interviewed James Scott and if you know James Scott, he's one of the principals at ICIT down PTC we interviewed him last fall and we asked him, he's a security expert and we asked them what's the number one risk to our country? And he said, the weaponization of social media. Now this is, this is before fake news came out and he said 2020 is going to be a, you know, what show and so, okay. >> Yeah, you know, and I want to say there's a danger that people think this is a partisan thing. Like, you know, if you, it's not about that. It's like even if you happen to support whoever has been on, on the good side of social media manipulation, you should still oppose the manipulation. You know, like I was, I was just in the UK yesterday and they had the Brexit foot where there was manipulation by Russians and others. And you know, the point I've made over there is that it's not about whether you support Brexit or not. That's your business, I don't even have an opinion. It's not, I'm an American. That's something that's for somebody else. But the thing is, if you look at the way Brexit happened, it tore society apart. It was nasty, it was ugly, and there have been tough elections before, but now they're all like that. And there was a similar question when the, the Czechoslovakia broke apart and they didn't have all the nastiness and it's because it was before social media that was called the velvet divorce. So the thing is, it's not so much about what's being supported, whatever you think about Donald Trump or anything else, it's the nastiness. It's the way that people's worst instincts are being used to manipulate them, that's the problem. >> Yeah, manipulation denial is definitely a problem no matter what side of the aisle you're on, but I think you're right that the economic incentive if the economic incentive is there, it will change behavior. And frankly, without it, I'm not sure it will. >> Well, you know, in the past we've tried to change the way things in the world by running around in outlying things. For instance, we had prohibition, we outlawed, we outlawed alcohol, and what we did is we created this underground criminal economy and we're doing something similar now. What we're trying to do is we're saying we have incentives for everything to be fake, everything to be phony for everything to be about manipulation and we're creating this giant underground of people trying to manipulate search results or trying to manipulate social media feeds and these people are getting more and more sophisticated. And if we keep on doing this, we're going to have criminals running the world. >> Wonder if I could bring the conversation back to the virtual reality. >> Absolutely. >> I'm sorry about that. >> So, but you know, you have some concerns about whether virtual reality will be something you for good or if it could send us off the deep end. >> Oh yeah, well. Look, there's a lot to say about virtual reality. It's a whole world after all. So you can, there is a danger that if the same kinds of games are being played on smartphones these days were transferred into a virtual reality or mixed reality modalities. Like, you could really have a poisonous level of mind control and I, I do worry about that I've worried about that for years. What I'm hoping is that the smartphone era is going to force us to fix our ways and get the whole system working well enough so that by the time technologies like virtual reality are more common, we'll have a functional way to do things. And it won't, it won't all be turned into garbage, you know because I do worry about it. >> I heard, I heard a positive segment on NPR saying that one of the problems is we all stare at our phones and maybe when I have VR I'll actually be talking to actual people so we'll actually help connections and I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that. >> Well, you know, most of the mixed reality demos you see these days are person looking at the physical world and then there's extra stuff added to the physical world. For instance, in this event, just off camera over there, there's some people looking at automobile engines and seeing them augmented and, and that's great. But, there's this other thing you can do which is augmenting people and sometimes it can be fun. You can put horns or wings or long noses or something on people. Of course, you still see them with the headsets all that's great. But you can also do other stuff. You can, you can have people display extra information that they have in their mind. You can have more sense of what each other are thinking and feeling. And I actually think as a tool of expression between people in real life, it's going to become extremely creative and interesting. >> Well, I mean, we're seeing a lot of applications here. What are some of your favorites? >> Oh Gosh. Of the ones right here? >> Yes. >> Well, you know, the ones right here are the ones I described and I really like them, there's a really cool one of some people getting augmentation to help them maintain and repair factory equipment. And it's, it's clear, it's effective, it's sensible. And that's what you want, right? If you ask me personally what really, a lot of the stuff my students have done, really charms me like up, there was just one project, a student intern made where you can throw virtual like goop like paint and stuff around in the walls and it sticks and starts running down and this is running on the real world and you can spray paint the real world so you can be a bit of a juvenile delinquent basically without actually damaging anything. And it was great, it was really fun and you know, stuff like that. There was this other thing and other student did where you can fill a whole room with these representations of mathematical objects called tensors and I'm sorry to geek out, but you had this kid where all these people could work together, manipulating tensors and the social environment. And it was like math coming alive in this way I hadn't experienced before. That really was kind of thrilling. And I also love using virtual reality to make music that's another one of my favorite things, >> Talk more about that. >> Well, this is something I've been doing forever since the '80s, since the '80s. I've been, I've been at this for awhile, but you can make an imaginary instruments and play them with your hands and you can do all kinds of crazy things. I've done a lot of stuff with like, oh I made this thing that was halfway between the saxophone and an octopus once and I'll just >> Okay. >> all this crazy. I love that stuff I still love it. (mumbling) It hasn't gotten old for me. I still love it as much as I used to. >> So I love, you mentioned before we came on camera that you worked on minority report and you made a comment that there were things in that that just won't work and I wonder if you could explain a little bit more, you know, because I have to imagine there's a lot of things that you talked about in the eighties that, you know, we didn't think what happened that probably are happening. Well, I mean minority report was only one of a lot of examples of people who were thinking about technology in past decades. Trying to send warnings to the future saying, you know, like if you try to make a society where their algorithms predicting what'll happen, you'll have a dystopia, you know, and that's essentially what that film is about. It uses sort of biocomputer. They're the sort of bioengineered brains in these weird creatures instead of silicon computers doing the predicting. But then, so there are a lot of different things we could talk about minority report, but in the old days one of the famous VR devices which these gloves that you'd use to manipulate virtual objects. And so, I put a glove in a scene mockup idea which ended up and I didn't design the final production glove that was done by somebody in Montreal, but the idea of putting a glove a on the heroes hand there was that glove interfaces give you arm fatigue. So the truth is if you look at those scenes there physically impossible and what we were hoping to do is to convey that this is a world that has all this power, but it's actually not. It's not designed for people. It actually wouldn't work in. Of course it kind of backfired because what happened is the production designers made these very gorgeous things and so now every but every year somebody else tries to make the minority report interface and then you discover oh my God, this doesn't work, you know, but the whole point was to indicate a dystopian world with UI and that didn't quite work and there are many other examples I could give you from the movie that have that quality. >> So you just finished the book. When did this, this, this go to print the. >> Yeah, so this book is just barely out. It's fresh from the printer. In fact, I have this one because I noticed a printing flaw. I'm going to call the publisher and say, Oh, you got to talk to the printer about this, but this is brand new. What happened was last year I wrote a kind of a big book of advert triality that's for real aficionados and it's called Dawn of the new everything and then when I would go and talk to the media about it they'd say, well yeah, but what about social media? And then all this stuff, and this was before it Cambridge Analytica, but people were still interested. So I thought, okay, I'll do a little quick book that addresses what I think about all that stuff. And so I wrote this thing last year and then Cambridge Analytica happened and all of a sudden it's, it seems a little bit more, you know, well timed >> than I could have imagined >> Relevant. So, what other cool stuff are you working on? >> I have to tell you something >> Go ahead. >> This is a real cat. This is a black cat who is rescued from a parking lot in Oakland, California and belongs to my daughter. And he's a very sweet cat named Potato. >> Awesome. You, you're based in Northern California? >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Awesome And he was, he was, he was an extra on the set of, of the Black Panther movie. He was a stand-in for like a little mini black panthers. >> What other cool stuff are you working on? What's next for you? >> Oh my God, there's so much going on. I hardly even know where to begin. There's. Well, one of the things I'm really interested in is there's a certain type of algorithm that's really transforming the world, which is usually called machine learning. And I'm really interested in making these things more transparent and open so it's less like a black box. >> Interesting. Because this has been something that's been bugging me you know, most kinds of programming. It might be difficult programming, but at least the general concept of how it works is obvious to anyone who's program and more and more we send our kids to coding camps and there's just a general societal, societal awareness of what conventional programming is like. But machine learning has still been this black box and I view that as a danger. Like you can't have society run by something that most people feel. It's like this black box because it'll, it'll create a sense of distrust and, and, I think could be, you know, potentially quite a problem. So what I want to try to do is open the black box and make it clear to people. So that's one thing I'm really interested in right now and I'm, oh, well, there's a bunch of other stuff. I, I hardly even know where to begin. >> The black box problem is in, in machine intelligence is a big one. I mean, I, I always use the example I can explain, I can describe to you how I know that's a dog, but I really can't tell you how I really know it's a dog. I know I look at a dog that's a dog, but. Well, but, I can't really in detail tell you how I did that but it isn't AI kind of the same way. A lot of AI. >> Well, not really. There's, it's a funny thing right now in, in, in the tech world, there are certain individuals who happen to be really good at getting machine language to work and they get very, very well paid. They're sort of like star athletes. But the thing is even so there's a degree of almost like folk art to it where we're not exactly sure why some people are good at it But even having said that, we, it's wrong to say that we have no idea how these things work or what we can certainly describe what the difference is between one that fails and that's at least pretty good, you know? And so I think any ordinary person, if we can improve the user interface and improve the way it's taught any, any normal person that can learn even a tiny bit of programming like at a coding camp, making the turtle move around or something, we should be able to get to the point where they can understand basic machine learning as well. And we have to get there. All right in the future, I don't want it to be a black box. It doesn't need to be. >> Well basic machine learning is one thing, but how the machine made that decision is increasingly complex. Right? >> Not really it's not a matter of complexity. It's a funny thing. It's not exactly complexity. It has to do with getting a bunch of data from real people and then I'm massaging it and coming up with the right transformation so that the right thing spit out on the other side. And there's like a little, it's like to me it's a little bit more, it's almost like, I know this is going to sound strange but it's, it's almost like learning to dress like you take this data and then you dress it up in different ways and all of a sudden it turns functional in a certain way. Like if you get a bunch of people to tag, that's a cat, that's a dog. Now you have this big corpus of cats and dogs and now you want to tell them apart. You start playing with these different ways of working with it. That had been worked out. Maybe in other situations, you might have to tweak it a little bit, but you can get it to where it's very good. It can even be better than any individual person, although it's always based on the discrimination that people put into the system in the first place. In a funny way, it's like Yeah, it's like, it's like a cross between a democracy and a puppet show or something. Because what's happening is you're taking this data and just kind of transforming it until you find the right transformation that lets you get the right feedback loop with the original thing, but it's always based on human discrimination in the first place so it's not. It's not really cognition from first principles, it's kind of leveraging data, gotten from people and finding out the best way to do that and I think really, really work with it. You can start to get a two to feel for it. >> We're looking forward to seeing your results of that work Jared, thanks for coming on the cube. You're great guests. >> Really appreciate it >> I really appreciate you having me here. Good. Good luck to all of you. And hello out there in the land that those who are manipulated. >> Thanks again. The book last one, one last plug if I may. >> The book is 10 arguments for deleting your social media accounts right now and you might be watching this on one of them, so I'm about to disappear from your life if you take my advice. >> All right, thanks again. >> All right. Okay, keep it right there everybody. We'll be back with our next guest right after this short break. You're watching the cube from LiveWorx in Boston. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> (Narrator) Live from Vancouver, Canada, it's The Cube, covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018, brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its Ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host John Troyer and you're watching The Cube, worldwide leader in tech coverage, and this is OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Happy to welcome to the program, first-time guest Melvin Hillsman, who's the governance board member of OpenLab, which we got to hear about in the keynote on Monday. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks for having me. >> Alright, so Melvin, we were given, start us off with a little bit about your background, what brought you to the OpenStack community, and we'll go from there. >> Sure, yeah, so my background is in Linux system administration and my getting involved in OpenStack was more or less seeing the writing on the wall as it relates to virtualization and wanting to get an early start in understanding how things would pan out over the course of some years. So I probably started OpenStack maybe three or four so years ago. I was probably later to the party than I wanted to be, but through that process, started working at Rackspace first and that's how I really got more involved into OpenStack in particular. >> Yeah, you made a comment, though. The writing on the wall for virtualization. Explained that for a sec. >> So for me, I was at a shared hosting company and we weren't virtualizin' anything. We were using traditional servers, dedicated servers, installing hundreds of customers on those servers. And so, at one point, what we started doing was we would take a dedicated server, we would create a virtual machine on it, but we would use most of the resources of that dedicated server, and so what allowed that shared hosting was to tear stuff down and recreate it, but it was very manual process and so, of course, the infrastructure service and orchestration around that OpenStack was becoming the de facto standard and way of doing it, and so I didn't want to try to learn manually, or fix something up internally, I wanted to go where OpenStack was being highly developed a lot and people working on it in their day to day jobs, which is why I went to Rackspace. >> Okay, one of the things we look at, this is a community here, so it takes people from lots of different backgrounds, and some of them do it on their spare time, some of them are paid by larger companies to participate, so to tell us about OpenLab, itself, and how your company participates there. >> Sure, so I started, well I'm at Huawei now, but I was at Rackspace and that's kind of how I got more involved in the community and there I started working on testing things above the OpenStack ecosystem, so things that people want to build on top of OpenStack and during that process Huawei reached out to me and was like hey you know you're doing a great job here, and I was like yeah I would love to come and explore more of how we can increase this activity in the community at large. And so Oakland Lab was essentially born out of that, which the OpenStack community, they deliver the OpenStack API's, and they kind of stop there, you know. Everything above that is, you do that on your own, more or less, and so also, as a chair of the user committee, again, just being more concerned about the people who are using stuff, OpenLab was able, was available to facilitate me having access to hardware and access to people who are using things outside OverStack in use cases, et cetera, where we want to test out more integrated tools working with OpenStack and different versions of OpenStack. And so that's essentially what OpenLab is-- >> So in OpenLab, projects come together and it's basically, it's an Interop, boy, in the networking world, they've had the Interop plug and plug fest for a long time, but, in essence, projects come together and you integrate them and start, you invite them in and they integrate and start to test them. Starting with, I mean, I see, for this release, Terraform and Kubernetes. >> Yeah, so a lot of people want to to use Kubernetes, right? And as an OpenStack operator you essentially, you don't really want to go and learn all the bits of Kubernetes, necessarily, and so, but you want to use Kubernetes and you want to work seamlessly with OpenStack and you want to use the API's that you're used to using with OpenStack and so we work very heavily on the external cloud provider for OpenStack, enabling Cinder V3 for containers that you're spinning up in Kubernetes, so that they have seamless integration, you don't have to try to attach your volumes, they are automatically attached. You don't have to figure out what your load balancing is going to to look like. You use Octavia, which is load balancing service for OpenStack, very tightly integrated and things, you know, as you spin things up, they work as you as you would expect and so then all the other legacy applications and all the things you're used to doing with OpenStack, you bring on Kubernetes and you essentially do things the way you've been doing them before, with just an additional layer. >> Yeah, now I wonder if you can talk a little bit about the providers and the users, you know how do they get engaged, to and give us a little flavor around those. >> Yeah, so you get engaged, you go to OpenLabtesting.org and there's two options. One, is you can test out your applications and tools, by clicking get started, you fill that out. And what's great about open lab is that we actually reach out and we talk with you, we consult with you, per se, because we have a lot of variation in hardware that's available to us and so we want to figure out the right hardware that you need in order to do the tests that you want, so that we can get the output as it relates to that integration that will, of course, educate and inform the community at large of whether or not it's working and been validated. And, again, so as a person who wants to support OpenLab or for a provider, for example, who wants to support OpenLab, you click on the support OpenLab link, you fill out a form and you tell us you know, do you want to provide more infrastructure, do you want to talk with us about how clouds are being architected, integrations are being architected, things that you're seeing in the open source use cases that may not be getting the testing that they need and you're willing to work with engineers from other companies around that, so individual testers and then companies who may bring a number of testers together around a particular use case. >> Now, you're starting to publish some of the results of Interop testing and things like that. How is open lab, how does it produce its results, is it eventually going to be producing white papers and things like that or dashboards or what's your vision there? >> Yeah, so we produce a very archaic dashboard right now, but we're working with the CNCF to, if you go to CNCF.CI, and they have a very nice dashboard that kind of shows you a number of projects and whether or not they work together. And so it's open source, so what we want to do is work with that team to figure out how do we change the logos and the git repos, to how to driving those red and green, success or failure icons that are there, but they're relevant to the test that we're doing in OpenLab, so yeah. So we definitely want to have a dashboard that's very easy to decipher what tests are failing in or passing. >> Looking forward, what kinds of projects are you most interested in getting involved? >> Right now, very much Kubernetes, of course. We're really focusing on multi architecture, again, as a result of our work with Kubernetes and driving full conformance and multi architecture. That's kind of the wheelhouse at this time. We're open for folks to give us a lot of different use cases, like we were starting to look at some edge stuff, how can we participate there, we're starting looking at FPGA's and GPU's, so a lot different, we don't have a full integration in a lot of different areas, just yet, but we are having those conversations. >> So, actually, I spent a bunch of years, when I worked on the vendor side, living in an Interrupt lab, and the most valuable things were not figuring out what worked, but what broke, so what kind of things, you know, as you're working through this, what learnings back do you share with the community, both the providers and users? Big stumbling blocks that you can help people, give a red flag, or say you know, avoid these type of things. >> Yeah, exactly what you just said. You know, what's good is some of our stuff is geographically dispersed, so we can start to talk about if, what's the latency look like? You may, within that few square miles that you're operating and doing things, it works great, but when I'm sending something across the water how, is your product still moving quickly, is the latency too bad that we can't, I can't create a container over here because it takes too long, so one example of looking at something fail as it relates to that is we're talking with Octavia folks to see, if I spin up a lot of containers am I going to therefore create a lot of load balancers and if I create a lot of load balancers I'm creating a lot of VM's, or am I creating a lot of containers or are things breaking apart, so we need to dig a little bit further to understand what is and is not working with the integrations we're currently working on and then again we're exploring GPV, GPUs just landed more or less, that was a part of the keynote as well, and so now we're talking about, well, let's do some of that testing. The software, the code, is there but is it usable? And so that's one area we want to start playing around with. >> Okay, one of the other things in the keynote's got mentioned was Zul, the CIDT tool, how's that fitting into the OpenLab? >> Yeah, we use Zul as our gating, so what's great about Zul is that you can interac6t with projects from different SCM's, so we have some projects that live in github, some that utilize Garrote, some that utilize gitlab, and Zul has applicability where it can talk to different, it can talk across these different SCM's, and if you have a patch that depends on a patch in another another pod, so a patch on one project in one SCM can depend on a patch in another project, in a different SCM, and so what's great about Zul is that you can say, hey I'm depending on th6at, so before this patch lands, check to make sure this stuff works over there, so if it succeeds there and it's a dependency then you basically confirm that succeeds there and then now I can run the test here, and it passes here as well, so you know that you can use both of those projects together again, in an integration. Does it makes sense? Hopefully I'm making it very clear, the power there with the cross SCM integration. >> Yeah, Melvin, you've had a busy week, here, at the show. Any, you know, interesting things you learned this week or something that you heard from a customer that you thought, oh boy we got to, you know, get this into our lab or a road map or, you know-- >> The ARM story, the multi architecture is, I feel like that's really taking off. We've had discussions with quite a few folks around that, so yeah, that for me, that's the next thing that I think we're really going to concentrate a little bit harder on is, again, figuring out if there are some problems, because mostly it's been just x86, but we need to start exploring what's breaking as we add more to multi architecture. >> Melvin, no shortage of new things to test and play with, and every customer always brings some unique spins on things, so appreciate you giving us the update on OpenLab, thanks so much for joining us. >> You're Welcome. Thanks for having me. >> From John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, thanks so much for watching The Cube. (electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from the Computer History Museum, in Mountain View, California, it's theCUBE! Covering DevNet Create 2018, brought to you by Cisco. >> Hello and welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive live coverage here in Mountain View, California, the heart of Silicon Valley at the Computer History Museum for Cisco's DevNet Create. I'm here with Lauren Cooney, the analyst, for the Wikibon team and our next guest is I'm proud to have Guy Kawasaki here on theCUBE. Guy is, goes without mentioning, a legend in the industry. Currently, the chief evangelist for Canva author of Art of the Start, a real pioneer in entrepreneurship, tech entrepreneurship, tech evangelism. Guy, great to see you, thanks for joining us. >> Thank you. >> Among other things, you've done a lot of amazing things. Thanks for joining us. >> What better place to be. >> The tech culture now is so mainstream. You're seeing Facebook CEO draw in more audience than a Supreme Court justice. >> More people watched the Senate hearings yesterday-- >> He probably has more impact than a Supreme Court justice. >> He's running the world. The tech culture has really grown to be a mainstream...in the early days the computer industry when it was really the beginning of the revolution, the PC revolution, Macintosh and the PC, you were there. So much has happened. I mean, as you look back, I mean looked out at the young guns coming up, what's your view, what's your reaction to all this? You have these (mumbles) moments. >> What's your take on all this? >> I suppose many people would say, we never thought it would get to this point. It's turned destructive and negative and all that. But it's a short snapshot of time and, first of all, can we put the genie back in the bottle? No, so it doesn't really matter. But, all things considered, the democratization of computing, everybody has a computer, whether it's a phone or a computer. The democratization of the transfer of information, obviously some information may be faint, may be not what you like. But would we go back to a time where we send things by fax machines? Not at all, I mean all things considered, >> it's a great time to be alive. >> Democratization goes through these waves, democratization with the PC, democratization with the internet, democratization of web 2.0 and social media. The beginning of social media, about 15 years, maybe 10, whatever way you might want to mark it. And now democratization with data and AI is interesting. So you're having these waves of democratization. It's going to take some time to sort out. I mean, as you look at the tech trends, how do you make sense of it, or what do you get excited about? How do you surf that wave? (chuckling) If you're going to surf the wave, the big wave coming, which some say is block chain and cryptocurrency and decentralization. What's the wave that you're on, that's the question? >> To use a surfing analogy, if we're going to go down that rat hole, a good, experienced surfer knows where to sit, can look out and say, I'll take the fourth wave. And I'll sit in the right place, turn around at the right time, paddle at the right time, you know, all that. And then there's people like me. We sit in the same place, and every 15 minutes, the right wave comes along and catches us. Those are the two theories. >> I think if only predicting tech trends were as easy as predicting surfing. >> Interviewer: Timing's everything. >> Timing is everything, luck is a lot to do with it. We only learn about the Apples and the Googles and the Ciscos and the Facebooks and the Pinterests and the Instagrams. I think you think, well, there are these really smart people and they can predict the trend or cause a trend. I think it's more the game of big numbers where if you have enough surfers in the water, somebody's going to catch a wave. (chuckling) And then you can say, yeah, I knew he was the best surfer. >> But really, right place, right time. >> And you got to know what a wave looks like. >> Guy: Well, yeah. >> You got to be, like, okay, am I in a tide pool >> or am I on a boogie board. >> And to your point, you've got to be in the water. [John] Yeah, yeah. >> You can't be standing on the shore, saying I'm going to catch a wave. You have to be in the water, and if you're in the water, >> nine times out of ten you're going to get crushed. (chuckling) >> If you're not out in front of that next wave, you're driftwood. In surfing, people will jump and try to take your wave, this sounds like the tactic of the whole industry. >> Guy: Exactly, right, right. >> What waves do you see that are coming, in your mind. You've seen a lot of waves in your day. I mean, right now, what wave is exciting you right now. >> If you look at the waves, what's out there? >> What I learn about that is, you can only declare your intelligence and victory after the fact, right. I can tell you the internet of things is big. I can tell you that social media is big. I can tell you that computing is big. Problem is I could tell you that because I know it's big now. Can I tell you what's in the future, no. If I could...first of all I wouldn't tell you. (chuckling) So I think in a rare moment of humility it's the law of big numbers. Infinite monkeys typing at keyboards, somebody's going to come up with Beethoven. >> I want to ask you a question because I get asked this question a lot, Hey, John, you've been around a while. I want to catch that next big wave, I want to be in the next Google, I want to be rich on stock options. (Guy chuckling) I said, a lot of times the best companies where you take the most advantage of is when no one else wants to work there or no one yet knows it. We really can't say, Oh, I'm going to get rich on that company because by that time it's either too late and people are chasing the wrong thing. >> Guy: Absolutely. >> How do you give that same advice to someone? >> Listen, you're talking to a guy who quit Apple twice and turned down Steve once. So how smart could I be? (John chuckling) Now we can say Apple is the most valuable company in the world, you should have stayed there. Well, thank you very much, thanks for tell me now. I think it's really... I don't want to be too dramatic, but I could almost build a case that you should invest in or work for the most dumb-ass idea you heard of. Because at any given point-- >> Airbnb, we're going to rent out mattresses >> and give out cereal. >> Very good example, Airbnb. Let's face it, if somebody told you Airbnb, before there was Airbnb, you would say, So you're telling me that I'm going to rent a room from somebody I met on the internet, and I'm going to sleep in that person's house, hoping he's not a murderer or pedophile. On the flip side, you're saying, I'm going to rent out my room to someone who I hope is not a pedophile or an ax murderer. Or ebay...I'm going to buy this printer from 3000 miles away and I'm going to assume it works. Or I'm going to sell my good printer to someone 3000 miles away and assume that he's not going to say he never got it or that it didn't work and he wants a refund. So if you go down the line of all these ideas, you'd have to say at the time, nobody. Even take an extreme: Zappos. If you told me that women would buy shoes without trying them on, seeing them, smelling them, and touching them, I would tell you you're crazy. You'd buy a book that way. You'd buy a CD that way, you'd buy a DVD. Would you buy shoes, would you buy shoes without trying them on. >> I totally would. (laughing) Now I can say that. >> To Zappos's credit, some of the way it made that work is it offered shipping back for free. So there was really no risk. But I would have been a skeptic about Zappos. >> Well, it was one of those things for me, Zappos, where they shipped in one day so I could get them immediately, try them on and if they didn't work, I could ship them back and get a different size. It was no big deal, it was very low overhead. So that's one of the reasons that that worked. But I think when you mention all of these great things like Ebay and Airbnb, it's really part of the sharing economy with people really wanting to share the goodness of their goods with other people that need them. >> It's just really connecting those folks. >> Places like Oakland and San Francisco, where there are certain streets where you line up and you just get in the next car with a stranger, and you go to San Francisco with them. >> Lauren: Yeah. >> And it's not computerized or anything. It's just trust. >> I did that once and it was frightening. (laughs) You never know who the driver is going to be or how they're going to drive. >> But you did it. >> I did it. >> People do it every day. >> I know. >> I'm amazed. >> I did it once, but... (laughing) >> Let's ask you a question. What's the craziest idea that you've seen that worked and the craziest idea that didn't work. >> Let's start with the easy one. I had a company called garage.com, and we were a venture capitalist investment bank, so we got pitched all the time. One day, a guy comes in and says, I'm going to build... A dirigible hotel over San Francisco. So you stay in the dirigible. Another person said, We're going to build a geodesic dome over Los Angeles. And I can't remember if it was to keep the air pollution in or out. I'll just tell you one really great one. These people were from Seagate so they had Cray, they worked for Seagate. And they say, We have this patent-pending, curb-jumping, patent-pending whatever technology so that if you drop your laptop with your hard disk, the head won't crash into the hard disk and ruin the hard disk. And at the time, this was 15 years ago, that was a great idea, right. It wasn't solid state. Heads crashing into hard disks. >> Moving parts. >> Seagate, so this is a great idea. Every hard disk in every laptop should be like it. So we get in the car, we go to their office, and the receptionist says, Oh, they're running late because they're on the phone with IBM. IBM is really interested in using this technology for the IBM PC laptop. Keep us waiting, keep us waiting. And they get out, and, Yeah, IBM was really, they're so excited, they're ready to move. And I, like, we're really excited. And finally I said, Give me the jist, what is your technology, is it like some special chip that detects gravitational fall, it's too fast, it's got to be hitting the ground so it parks the head because it recognizes motion or whatever. And I swear to God, I swear to God, he brings out this piece of foam and he says this is military spec foam. So we take your hard disk, we put this foam thing around it, and we put it in the laptop. And I swear to God, I was having an out of body experience. >> You're telling me-- >> I drove all the way here-- >> That your proprietary technology is putting foam around the hard disk, and IBM is excited by this foam. So welcome to my life. >> So what are you up to now. Talk about your evangelism. I know you're a (mumbles) Mercedes. You have a bunch of things going on. You've been very prolific in social media. You were on the suggested user list from day one on Twitter. >> No, I wasn't. >> Oh, no, you weren't, that's right. But you have a zillion followers. >> That's why I have never forgiven Twitter for that. >> I thought they put you on. >> Guy: No. >> Okay, I stand corrected. >> You had to be an actress. >> Some tech people got on there, I know. >> Guy: Yeah. >> But I was not on. >> There you go. >> Measly 20,000 or so. But you got a million and a half followers active. You've really been prolific in a good way. (laughing) Engaging with communities. >> Yeah. >> What have you learned and how do you view this next generation of social because you're seeing the Facebooks, you're seeing LinkedIn. There's siloed platforms. Is there hope? What's your take on it, is it going to grow? >> I've come to the point where I always believe things are never as good or as bad as they seem. So I don't think it's as bad as people say. If these social media sites are selling my data, they're going to go broke selling my data. (laughs) I don't know how you could look at my data. First of all, I never look at ads, so go ahead, sell my data. I'm not going to look at the ad anyway. It doesn't matter. I think the ability to spread ideas, arguably good or bad, the ability to spread ideas with social media, all things considered, is better. It's going to be abused and all that. My father was a state senator in Honolulu, and we were into banner ads way before anybody else. Banner was literally a piece of cloth with his name on it that you staple to the side of a building, saying Vote for Duke Kawasaki. That was the nature of banner advertisement back then. Do I think that social media targeting and all that for sales is a good thing? Yes, I do. If you're a real estate broker, and you wanted to reach people who live in Silicon Valley, age 50 to 70, female or male or whatever, in such-and-such an income bracket, how else can you do it but Facebook? >> It's good and bad. >> That's why Facebook is so successful. >> The metadata is all about the clan and the culture, and I think putting ideas out there is a way to send your ideas into the ether, make it happen. So, that's key. Now, we're here at a developer conference, so one of the things that's also a big part of this community is the notion of how open source has become a tier one citizen, and it's really running the world. Which is also grounded in community as well. You have this ethos of community, ethos of software open. >> I believe in open source. I believe that the more intelligent people pounding on your stuff, the better it is. I'm an author, and what I do is, speaking in the sense of open source. So right now I'm about 80% done with my book. I put out a post on social media saying anybody that wants to review my book, test my book, send me your information. So I do this, I cut it off at about 280 people. I send them the Word document, the entire Word document of my book. Does that mean they can take it and publish it in China tomorrow, yes. But, from that, I get hundreds and hundreds of comments. >> John: Wisdom of the crowds, self-editing. >> Yeah, and they point out stuff that I never would have noticed because I'm too close to at this point. So is there a downside, yes. Is there piracy, yes. Arguably, would those pirates have bought the book anyway? No. >> Our content's all free. We're really big in China because they actually take it and translate it in the native language. >> Guy: Which you would never have done. >> With all the jargon, you can't hire a-- >> Guy: You would never have done that. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Guy, great to catch up with you. Thanks for coming on. What are you working on now, you mentioned the book, what's the book about? >> The book is called Wise Guy, and it's a compilation of the stories that have influenced my life. So it's not an auto-biography. It is not a memoir. Have you ever heard of the book Chicken Soup for the Soul? >> John: Yeah, yeah. >> You know, it's inspirational stories. This is miso soup for the soul. (laughing) So I'm working on that, TV evangelism with Canva is just going gangbusters. Brand ambassadors for Mercedes Benz. I'm on the board of directors of a company called Cheeze with a zee. It's an anti-social photo-sharing and vidoo-sharing app. And that's it. >> You've been an inspiration to many, great job of the year has been a big fan of your work. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. Really appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> Guy Kawasaki here inside theCUBE. We're at Devnet Create. This is Cisco's cloud developer conference. Different from their core Devnet Cisco Networking developer, and this is all about dev ops open source. And this is theCUBE bringing you all the action here in Mountain View, California. We'll be right back with more after this short break.