>> Narrator: From theCUBE Studios and Palo Alto in Boston. Connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a CUBE conversation. >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're at our Palo Alto studio as kind of our on going leadership coverage of what's happening with the COVID crisis, and really looking out into our community to find experts who can provide tips and tricks, and some guidance as everyone is kind of charting these uncharted waters if you will. And we've got a great cube alarm in our database. He's a fantastic resourcer. We're excited to get him on. Share the information with you. We'd like to welcome once again, Darren Murph. He is the Head of Remote for GitLab. Darren, great to see you. >> Absolutely, great to be here. Thanks for having me. >> Absolutely, so thank you and. First off, we had you on earlier this year, back when things were normal, in kind of a regular review. Who knew that you would be at the center of the work-from-home universe just a few short months later. I mean, you've been doing this for ever. So it's kind of a wile old veteran of the work-from-home, or not even from home, just work from some place else. What are some top level things that you can share for people that have never experienced this before? >> Yeah, on the working front. If you're one of the people that are working from home, I think there's a couple of things you can do to help acclimate, make your world a little bit better. The first is to try to create some sort of separation between your work life and your personal life. Now if you have a home big enough that you can dedicate a workspace to being your office, that's going to help a lot. Help from a focus standpoint and just. You don't want those lines between work and life to blur too much, that's where isolation kicks in. That's where burnout kicks in. You want to do whatever you can to avoid. You got to remember, when you're not physically walking out of a office and disconnecting from work. You have to replicate that and recreate that. I actually recommend for people that used to have a commute and now they don't. I would actually black something in your calendar, whether that's cooking, cleaning, spending time with your family. Resting more, anything so that you ramp into your day very deliberately and ramp out of very deliberately. Now on the team leading front. I'm going to say it may feel a little counter intuitive, but the further your team is from you, the more distributed they are. The more you really need to let go and allow them to have mechanism for feeding back to you. Managers job in a remote setting switches from just being a pure director, you're actually being an unblocker. A really active listener. And for people who have gotten to a certain point in their career through command and control, this is going to feel very strange, jarring and counter intuitive, but we've seen it time and time again. You need to trust that your workers are in a new environment. You have to give them a mechanism feeding back to you to help them unblock whatever it is. >> You know that's funny, we had someone on as part of this the other day, talking about leaders need to change their objectives that they're managing to, from kind of activity based, to deliverals based. And it actually floored me that someone is still writing in a blog in 2020, that people have to change their management deliverables from activity to deliverables. And it was so funny, you know, you had Martin Mikos on, we had him on too. My favorite comment was, "It's so easy to fake it in the office and look busy, "but when you're at home all you have is your deliverable." so it really, it seems like there's kind of a forcing function to get people to pay attention to the things they should be managing to anyway. >> You said it, forcing functions. I talk about this all the time, but there are so many forcing functions in remote that help you do remote well. But not only just do remote well, just run your business well. Even if you plan on going back to office. On some level there's a lot of things you can do now to help pave the infrastructure to creating a better and more effective team. And as a manager, if you have it in a writing down. The metrics or expectations for your direct reports in the office, now's the time to do it. Subjectivity is allowed to flourish in the office. You can praise or promote people just kind of how much you like them or how easy they are to work with. That really has nothing to do with metrics and results. I've often been asked, "How do you know if "someone's been working remotely?" And my response is, how do you know if they were working in the office. If you can't clearly answer that in the office, then you're not going to be able to answer it remotely. So frankly, in these times a lot of the burden falls more on the manager to actually take a hard look at what they're clarifying to their team. And if the metrics aren't laid out. It's on the manager to lay that out. It's not the responsibility of the direct report to figure out how to prove their worth. The manager has to be very articulant about what that value looks like. >> Right, and not only do they have to be articulate about what the deliverables are and what their expectations are, but. You guys have a remote play book GitLab has published, which is terrific. People should go online, it's 38 pages of dense, dense, dense material. It's a terrific resource, it's a open source, you got to love the open source, eat those. But one of the slides that jumped out to me, and it's consistent with a lot of these conversations that we're having, is that your frequency of communications when people are not in the same room together. Has to go up dramatically, which is a little counter intuitive, but what I found even more interesting was the variety of types of communication. Not just you kind of standard meeting, or you standard status on a project, or maybe a little bit of a look forward to some strategic stuff. But you outlined a whole variety of types of communication. Objectives or methods, or feel if you will, to help people stay connected and to help kind keep this team building going forward. >> So here's the thing about communication. You've got to be intentional about it in a remote setting. And in fact, you need to have more intentionality across the board in a remote setting. And communications is just a very obvious. So for a lot of companies, they leave a lot of things to spontaneity Inter-personal relationships and communications are two of the biggest ones. Where you may not actually lay out a plan for how work is communicated about, or what opportunities you give people to chat about their weekends, or sports, or anything like that. You just kind of put them in the same building and then people just kind of figure it out. In a remote setting that's unwise. You're going to get a lot of chaos and disfunction when people don't know how to communicate and on what channel. So at GitLab we're very prescriptive that work communication happens in a GitLab issue or a merge request. And then informal communication happens through Zoom calls or Slack. We actually expired our Slack messages after 90 days, specifically to force people not to do work in Slack. We want the work to begin where it needs to end up, and in that case it's a very, it's a tool, GitLab, that's built for asynchronous communication. We want to continue to encourage that bias towards asynchronous communication. So yeah, we write down everything about how we want people to communicate and through what channels. And that may sound like a lot of rules, but actually it's very much appreciated by our global team. We have over 1200 people, in more that 65 countries. And they all just need to know where communication is going to happen. And our team is really cohesive and on the same page because we're articulant about that. >> So I want to double down on that. On 'A secret is peace', 'cause you brought this up, or you and Stu brought it up in your conversation with Stu, and Stu raised an interesting point, right. Unfortunately in the day of email and connected phones, and this and that, there has grown an expectation that used to be business, okay was, "I'll get back to you within 24 hours "if you leave me a voicemail." And lord knows what it was when we were still typing letters and memos, and sticking stuff in the yellow envelop with the string, right, as multiple days. But somehow that all got changed to, "I need to hear back form you now." And often it feels like, if your trying to have just some uninterrupted work time, to get something done. It's like, why is your lack of planning suddenly my emergency. And you talked about, you can't operate that on a global, asynchronous team because everyone's in different timezones. And just by rule, there are going to be a lot of people that are not awake when you need the answer to that question. But that you've developed a culture that that's okay, and that that is kind of the flow and the pacing which A, forces people to ask in advance, not immediately when you need it. But also gives people unfettered time to actually plan to do work versus plan to answer communications. I wonder if you can dig into how did that evolve and how do you enforce that when somebody comes in from the outside world. >> The real key to that is something that might not be immediately apparent to everyone. Which is, at GitLab we try to shift as much burden as we possibly can humans to documentation. And this even starts at onboarding, where to get onboarded at GitLab, you get an onboarding issue within GitLab, with over 200 check boxes of things to read and knowledge assessments to take. And humans are a part of it, but very minimal compared to what most companies would do. And the thing that you just outlined was, we're talking about asking questions. Or tapping someone on the shoulder to fill in a knowledge gap. But at GitLab we want to write everything down in a very formalized structured way. We try to work handbook first. So we need to document all of our processes, protocols and solutions. Basically everything that we've ever seen or done, needs to be documented in the handbook. So it's not that GitLab team members just magically need less information, it's just that instead of having to ask someone on our team, we go ask the handbook. We go consult the documentation. And the more rich that your documentation is, the less you have to bother other people, and the less you need to rely on synchronicity. So for us it all starts with operating handbook first. That allows our humans to reserve their cycles for doing truly creative things, not just answering your question for the thousandth time. >> Right, another thing you covered, which I really enjoyed was getting senior executives to work from home for an extended period of time. Now obviously, before COVID that would probably be a lot harder to do. Well now COVID has forced that. And I think to your point about that is, it really forces the empathy for someone who had no interest in working from home. Didn't like to work from home. Loves going to the office, has their routine. Been doing it for decades, to kind of wake up to A, you need to have more empathy for what this is all about. And B, what's it all about by actually doing it. So I wonder, kind of your take in the movement to more of a work from anywhere future. Now that all the senior executives have been thrown into this work from home situation. >> Look Jeff, you never want to waste a crisis. We can't wish away the crisis that's in front of us, but we can choose how we respond to it. And this does present an opportunity to lay ground work, to lay infrastructure, to build a more remote organization. And I have absolutely advocated for companies to get their leadership teams out of the office for a meaningful amount of time. A month, ideally a quarter. So that they actually understand what the remote life is. They actually have some of those communication gaps and challenges so they can document what's happening. And then help fix it. But to your point, executives love going to the office because they're on a different playing field to begin with. They usually have an executive assistant. Things are just. There's less friction in general. So it behooves them to just kind of keep charging in that direction, but now what we have is a situation where all of those executives are remote. And I'm seeing a lot of them say, "You know what, I'm seeing the myths that I've perpetrated "break down in front of me." And this is even in the most suboptimal time ever to go remote. This isn't remote work, this is crisis induced work from home. We're all dealing with social isolation. Our parents are also doubling as homeschool teachers. We have a lot going on. And even on top of all of that, I'm amazed at how adaptable the human society has been. In just adjusting to this and figuring it out on the fly. And I think the companies that take this opportunity, to ask themselves the right question, and build this into their ongoing talent and operational strategy, will actually come out stronger on the other side. >> Yeah, as you said. This is as challenging as it's ever been. There was no planning ahead, you're spouse or significant other's also working from home. And has the same Zoom schedule as you do, for some strange reason, right. The kids are home as you said, and your homeschooling them. And they also have to get on Zoom to do their classes. So it's really suboptimal. But as you said, it's a forcing function and people are going to learn. One of the other things in your handbook is the kind of definitions. It's not just work from home or work at the office, but there's actually a continuum and a spectrum. And as people are doing this for weeks and months. And behaviors turn into habits. People are not going to want to go back to sitting on 101 for two hours every morning to go work on a laptop in the office. It just doesn't make sense. So as you kind of look forward. How do you see the evolution. How are people taking baby steps, if you will. To incorporate more of this learning as we go forward. And incorporate into more of their regular, everyday procedures. >> I'm really optimistic about the future because what I see happening here is people are unlocking their imaginations. So once they've kind of stabilized, they're starting to realize, "Hey, I'm getting a lot more time with my family. "I'm spending a lot less on gas. "I just feel better as a person because I don't show up "to work everyday with road rage. "So how can I keep this going." And I genuinely think what's going to happen in four or five months, we're going to have millions of people collectively look at each other and they say, "The boss just called me back into the office "but I just did my job from home. "Even in suboptimal conditions. "I saw my family more, I exercised more. "I had more time to cook and clean. "How about no, I'm not going to go back to the office "as my default location." And I think what's going to happen is the 80, 20 rule is going to flip. Right now people work from home only for a special occasion, like the cable company's coming or something like that. Going forward it think the offices are going to be the special occasion. You're only going to commute to the office, or fly to the office when you have a large contingent of people coming in and you need to wine and dine them, or something like that. And the second order of this is, people that are only living in expensive cities because of their location. When their lease comes up for renewal, they're going to cast a glance at places like Wyoming and Idaho, and Ohio. Maybe even Vietnam and Cambodia, or foreign places. Because now you have them thinking of, "What could life look like if I decouple geography at work. "I still want to work really hard "and contribute this knowledge. "But I can go to a place with better air quality, "better schools, better opportunity to actually "invest in a smaller community, "where I can see real impact." And I think that's just going to have massive, massive societal impacts. People are really taking this time to consider how tightly their identity has been woven into work. Now that they're home and they've become something more than just whatever the office life has defined them as. I think that's really healthy. I think a lot of people may have intertwined those two things too tightly in the past. And now it's a forcing function to really ask yourself, you aren't just your work, you're more than your work. And what can that look like when you can do that job from anywhere. >> Right, right. And as you said, there's so many kind of secondary benefits in terms of traffic and infrastructure, and the environment and all kinds of things. And the other thing I think that's interesting what you said, 80, 20 I think that was pretty generous. I wouldn't give it a 20 percent. But if people, even in this hybrid steps, do more once a week, twice a week. Once every two weeks, right. The impact on the infrastructure and peoples lives is going to be huge. But I wanted to drill on something as we go into kind of this hybrid mode at some point in time. And you talked about, and I thought it was fascinating, about the norms and really coming out from a work from home first, or a work from anywhere first. Your very good at specifying anywhere doesn't mean home. Could be the library, could be the coffee shop. Could be an office, could be a WeWork. Could be wherever. Because if you talked about the new norms and the one I thought was really interesting, which probably impacts a lot of teams, is when some of the team's in the office and some of the team isn't. The typical move, right, is to have everyone in the office go into the conference room. We sit around one big screen. So you get like five people sitting around one table and you got a bunch of heads on Zoom. And you said, "You know, no. "Let's all be remote. So if we just be happen to be sitting at our desk. If we happen to be in the office, that's okay. But really normalize. And like we saw the movement from Cloud got to Cloud-e to Cloud first, why not Cloud. And then you know, kind of mobile and does it work in a mobile. No, no, no it has to. It's mobile first. Really the shift to not, can it be done at home, but tell me why it shouldn't be done at home, a really different kind of opening position as to how people deploy resources and think about staffing and assigning teams. It's like turning the whole thing upside down. >> Completely upside down. I think remote first to your point, is going to be the default going forward. I think we're just one or two quarters away from major CEO's sitting on the hot seat on CNBC, when it's their turn for quarterly earnings. And they're going to have to justify why they're spending what they spend on real estate. Is if your spending a billion dollars a year on real estate, you could easily deploy that to more people, more R&D. Once that question is asked in mass, that is when you're going to see the next phase of this. Where you really have to justify, even from a cost stand point, why are you spending so much? Why are you tying so much of your business results to geography. The thing about remote first is that it's not a us versus them. A lot of what we've learned at GitLab, and how we operate so efficiently. They work really well for remote teams, and they are remote first. But they would work just as well in an office. We attach a Google doc agenda to every single business meeting that we have, so that there's always an artifact. There's always a documented thread on what happened in a meeting. Now this would work just as well in a co-located meeting. Who wouldn't want to have a meeting where it's not just in one ear and out the other. You're going to give the time to the meeting, you might as well get something out of it. And so a lot of these remote forced. Remote first forcing functions, they do help remote teams work well. But I think it's especially important for hybrid teams. Offices aren't going to vanish overnight. A lot of these companies are going to have some part of their company return to the office, when travel restrictions are lifted. It think the key here is that its going to be a lot more fluent. You're never going to know on a day to day basis, who is coming into the office, and who is not. So you need to optimize for everyone being out of the office. And if they just so happen to be there, they just so happen to be there. >> Right, right. So before we. I want to get into one little nitty gritty subject, in terms of investment into the home office. You know, we're doing 100% remote interviews now on theCUBE, we used to go to pretty much. Probably 80% of our business was at events, or at peoples offices, or facilities. Now it's all dial-in. You talked a lot about people need to flex a little bit on enabling people to invest in the little bits and pieces of infrastructure for their home office, that they just don't have the same set ups. You're talking about multiple monitors, a comfortable chair, a good light. That there's a few things you can invest in, not tremendous amounts of money. But a couple of hundred bucks here and there, to make a big difference on the home work environment. And how people should think about making that investment into a big monitor that they don't see. It's not sitting at the desk in the office. >> 100%, look if you're coming from a co-located space, you're probably sitting in a cube that costs five, 10, maybe 20 thousand dollars put together. You might not notice that, but it's not cheap to build cubicles in a high rise. And if you go to your home and you have nothing set up, I would say it's on the people group to think really hard about being more lax and more lenient about spending policy. People need multiple monitors. You need a decent webcam, you need a decent microphone. You need a chair that isn't going to kill your back. You want to help people create healthy ergonomics. Sustainable workspaces in their home. This is the kind of thing that will inevitably impact productivity. You force someone to just be hunched over on their couch, in front of a 13 inch laptop. I mean, what kind of productivity do you really expect from that. That's not a great long term solution. I think the people group actually has a higher burden to bare all the way around. You know when it comes to making sure teams feel like teams and they have the atmosphere to connect on a meaningful level. It comes down to the people group, to not letting that just go to spontaneity. You want to have a happy hour virtually, you're going to have to put a calendar invite on peoples calendar. You're going to create topical channels in Slack for people to talk about things other than work. Someone's going to have to do that. They don't just happen by default. So, from hardware all the way to communication. The people group really needs to use this opportunity to think about, "Okay, what can we unlock in this new world." >> Right, I'm glad you said the people group and not the resources group because they're not coal, or steel, or a factory. >> No, if anything COVID has humanized this in a way, and I think it's actually a really big silver lining, where we're all now peering into each others homes. And it is glaringly obvious, that we're all humans first, colleagues second. And of course that always been the case, but there's something about a sterile or co-located work environment. You check a piece of you at the door. And you just kind of get down to business. Why is that, we have technology at out fingertips. We can be humans with each other. And that going to actually encourage more empathy. As we've seen at GitLab, more empathy leads to better business results. It leads to more meaningful connections. I mean, I have people, friends, located all over the world that I feel like I have a closer bond with. A closer, more intimate connection with that a lot of people I've met in office. To some degree you don't know who they really are. You don't know what they really love and what makes them tick. >> Right, right. All right Darren, so before I let you go and again thank you for the time, the conversation. I'm sure everyone is calling you up and I just love the open source ETHOS and the sharing. It's made such a huge impact on the technology world and second order impacts that a lot of people take advantage. Again, give us the place that people can go for the playbook, so they can come and leverage some of the resources. And again, thank you guys for publishing 'em. >> Absolutely, so we're an open source. We try to open source all of our learnings on remote. So go to allremote.info that will redirect you right into the All Remote section of GitLab handbook. All of which is open source. Right at the top you can download the remote playbook, which is PDF that we talked about. Download that, it takes you through all of our best information on getting started and thriving as a remote team. Just under that there's a lot of comprehensive guides on how we think about everything. And how we operate synchronously. How we handle meeting, and even hiring and compensation. allremote.info and of course you're welcome to reach out to me on Twitter, I'm @darrenmurph. >> All right, well thanks a lot Darren. And I find it somewhat ironic that you have a jetliner over your shoulder. Waiting for the lockdown and the quarantine to end so you can get back on the airplane. And we're looking forward to that day. >> Can't wait man, I miss, I miss the airplanes. I told someone the other day, I never thought I'd say I miss having a middle seat at the very back of the airplane, with someone reclined into my nose. But honestly, I can't wait. Take me anywhere. >> I think you'll be fighting people for that seat in another month or so. All right, thanks a lot, Darren. >> Absolutely, take care all. >> All right, he's Darren. I'm Jeff, you're watching theCUBE, from our Palo Altos Studios. Thanks for watching, we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering GitLab Commit 2020. Brought to you by GitLab. >> Hi and welcome to CUBE's coverage of GitLab Commit 2020. We're here in San Francisco, actually, the first CUBE event of the year, and I'm Stu Miniman here with John Furrier, the founder of SiliconANGLE, one of our main CUBE hosts. John, always great to kick off the year with you, and of course, we're digging in on the developer world, cloud native. Nothing better than, you know, the opening keynote talks about, you know, there's a line we've been talking for years, software's eating the world and what are the ripples that are happening on. So, Tom, great to see you, and how come it's so cold here in San Francisco? I mean, I could be back in Boston. >> Coldest winter. I've spent summers here years ago, but it's not summer anymore. But Stu, it's football playoffs. Patriots aren't in, so sorry to hear that our Pats didn't make it. But great to see you. I think one of the things this year in 2020, a new decade, 10 years of theCUBE, looking back, we have been on all the major developer waves since 2010. We jumped on the Hadoop wave with Cloudera. We saw the beginning of that wave of OpenStack to cloud, Kubernetes, containers, the whole nine yards. We've been in the developer community. But this year, cloud native not only is going to continue that expansion of developer CUBE action, but the cross-connect with mainstream, and this is to me the biggest trend of the next 20 years is going to be the open systems model of cloud, just like the open systems interconnect in the '80s created a whole new computer industry, changed the landscape, changed the value proposition, this year, I think we're going to start to see real visibility of value creation where the developers are not just the cliche of the value proposition. That's the cliche. Oh yeah, developers (mumbles). No, no, this is a whole nother game change. With CloudScale, with data, with AI, you're seeing again the importance of this. I think cloud native represents to me that next generation, because with multicloud, there are new criterias out there for success, new requirements. Same game, writing software. Whole new dynamic. Networking, Stu. >> Yeah. >> Compute. >> Yeah, John, and I love actually, I think this was a great show to help us kick it off because you talked about those mega waves out there. We've been watching the growth of some of the huge platforms. AWS was on the keynote stage this morning, Google is doing the closing keynote, and of course one of the major acquisitions, you know, in the relatively recent past was Microsoft buying GitHub. And so we know that developers are so important, but the message we heard from GitLab is it's not about silos anymore. They said not only the dev, the sec, and the ops, but finance and marketing. Everyone needs to get on the same page. GitLab's vision, of course, is that everyone should be using the same tools. That was something that I heard, that we both heard last year at AnsibleFest, that if you're in the same tools, sharing the same information, in the same communication channels, you're going to be able to move fast, and that is what companies need to do. They need to be able to react fast. The business should be able to move. Those software cycles need to be shortened. And that's the mission and the big goal that GitLab has, and I think it's representative of the wave we've been seeing. >> Let's get into the keynote analysis, but before we get to that, I want to, you brought up a point about GitHub. I think there's a real dynamic of GitHub being acquired by Microsoft for many reasons. One is Microsoft's got this cloud called Azure, and not the only cloud in town. Amazon has AWS. And so multicloud is going to be a theme we're going to see more and more of. And so this idea of open and transparent community in open source is interesting in a world where everyone's siloing. I mean, let's face it, GitHub is owned by Microsoft. LinkedIn was acquired by Microsoft. You're starting to see the walled garden world come back again where data is really valuable. And so what's interesting to see is you're seeing a company with GitLab, really one of the first ones to say, "Hey, you know what? "We're going to be anti-walled garden. "We're going to be open. "We're going to be transparent." And again, integrated platform. The cloud is demanding companies have integration requirements that are well above what we saw years ago, and this is now a new table stake. This to me is the real walkaway. What's your thoughts on the GitLab keynote and those industry dynamics? >> Yeah, some great points there, John. Right, first of all, open, fully open. You know, the CEO and the CMO, some of the things they were talking about is sometimes the team doesn't know who's doing the contribution because they're getting regular contribution. They said, "Hey, I didn't see them in the group." Oh wait, that's a customer, that's a partner, someone from the outside doing it. Fully open and transparent and remote. They now have over 1100 employees. Four years ago there were nine of them. And it is fully remote. Actually, do a little compare and contrast. Talk about Amazon. John, how many people do we know that have joined Amazon, and the first thing you do is you move to Seattle, because that's just where they have. Now, of course they've got multiple locations. They've got thousands of employees down in DC, in Massachusetts, in New York City, all over the place, but the core decision-making, even though they are very distributed, Seattle is where everything happens. That's where most of the people live. So GitLab, not only is the company remote, but that's the tooling that they've built really is to enable people to work wherever they are. From GitLab's standpoint, they said hey, we have, one of our software people, she lives in New Zealand, and she has her own power. She's completely off the grid except for her internet. As long as she has internet, she can contribute to the team and participate in the building of GitLab. So it's fascinating. You know, we've talked for years ago the future of work and how that happens. So the tooling as enablement not only to allow everybody to work together, but work together wherever they are and that remote capability, and it is very challenging. You know, we watched Zoom IPO last year, and they're trying to help with that whole wave, but we know that there's a challenging dynamic of being able to work wherever you are. >> So they brought up some stats, interesting. Scale and integration are a big theme. Looks like GitLab's getting it. They made some good calls. Have integration, very friendly integration, very open. And they're essentially consolidating a lot of the different tool chains out there. You look at Jenkins and other things out there, from continuous integration and variety through now mainstream. They got 1100 employees, okay. They got a valuation of $2 billion. They just raised $436 million. They have cash on hand of 350 million and they're going to do revenue. So you have essentially scale in GitLab with an integration story which the cloud guys are being forced. That's my opinion. Do you agree with that and do you think that GitLab can continue the pace of growth given where they're at? >> Well, John, they have something that everybody wants. It's that recurring revenue. So in February 2020, they will have passed the 100 million of ARR, and they've announced that they're going to IPO later this year. We're going to have the CEO on later. I'm a little surprised how fast they are looking to IPO, John. We've seen so many companies that not only do they do big raises, but it's not $100 million, it's two or $300 million. You know, when do you have profitability? When do you go public? So I'm a little curious why there's almost a race for GitLab to go IPO. But absolutely they are catching a lot of these waves. When GitHub was taken off the table, boy did I see Google moving fast to work closer with them. It's no coincidence that Amazon is here, because there's been a little bit of concern from GitHub as to, oh, if I'm doing GitHub, does that mean that I'm kind of being pushed closer to Microsoft Azure, as you said, that cloud. I've read recently GitHub's trying to make sure that they stay independent. We know the GitHub team. And the other big thing we saw is GitLab, about three years ago, they really differentiated themself. They are not just a GitHub alternative. You talked about Jenkins. The CICD is a huge piece of what they're doing. The source code management and CICD, putting those together are the core of what they're doing, but they're trying to be a single tool chain. Boy, when I look at the, you know, the mesh of tooling that GitLab kind of is poking at a little bit, we know a lot of these companies. Some of them are public. Some of them are unicorns. You know, to say that, oh, well, we're going to all of your security chaining. We know how deep and gnarly the security world is. But GitLab, being open, they're going to partner with all of these environments. It's not that you can only use the GitLab pieces. But the audacious goal to say that they are going to be kind of the one tool chain to rule them all is a good goal. I'm hugely supportive my entire career of trying to get rid of silos. But we know that you're still going to have corner cases and use cases that I'm going to need to go deeper. I'm still going to use those best of breeds. And that's one of the things that we're going to look at this year, John, that platform, just like I could go all in on AWS, but I'm still going to use lots of tools on Amazon and I'm going to use other clouds. >> What's your take on, great analysis, by the way. What's your take on as cloud native becomes multicloud where you got edge developing, we got outposts. You're seeing Azure with their stuff. Outposts is Amazon. You now have more pressure on speed and agility than ever before. How does GitLab's story play well into that, and as enterprises have to be faster. Not just enterprises, service providers. There's other new companies doing more cloud and on-premises and edge, AKA multicloud, too. >> Yeah, so I actually, I loved the problem statement that they nailed with talking about the tool chain that's out there is they said more than 50% of devops time is wasted on logistics and repetitive tasks. And John, if you talk about multicloud, it's not just simple to say, "Oh, hey, I threw in a Kubernetes layer "and therefore I can move from my Auzre "to my GCP to my AWS." That's not how it works. I have all the underlying things. I have the interface. That tool and user interface knowledge is challenging to overcome. There are some tools like GitLab, of course, that help me span across those environments. HashiCorp is here at the show, a partner of GitLab. I was just meeting with them recently. And of course, they're going to spread across the multiple cloud environments. But that is really where the meat on the bone is, John, if you talk about multicloud and cloud native. Where are these pieces that can help customers make sure that I'm not too deeply locked into one environment and still being able to leverage the various services that I might want to use across multiple clouds. >> Yeah, I mean, to me, the big takeaway, Stu, on the keynote I made in my notes here is that what I was impressed with is, obviously the transparency that they have is, I love the openness. You know, I mean, this whole silo thing's definitely real. You're seeing more and more. So open and transparent's key. But when you look at what they really have here is the integration story, and cloud is forcing that, in my opinion. But they announced what they call a complete devops platform delivered as a single application, from manage, plan, create, verify, package, secure, release, configure, monitor, and defend. The spectrum of a devops platform. So that to me, I think, is the step that needs to be taken. The question I have is how real is it, in your opinion? Is that what a lot of other people are saying that they have? What's your analysis of that story, reality, legit, and what's their prospects? >> Yeah, well, definitely GitLab has great adoption. The two pieces is the SCM and the CI are the core of what they're doing, and they know that's where people usually kind of walk in the door. Then they kind of land and they look to expand from that. GitLab's made a number of acquisitions, and from 2020, they are going to really double down on making sure that they dig deeper into some of those environments, especially security, planning, and ops were the three priorities that they had there. So, you know, John, we know when you talk about you're trying to be all things to all people, there are going to be things that you will do well and things that you can do great, but, so it is an audacious goal, and with a broad community supporting it. >> Well, we know, you've reported on this and we've told stories about it is that if there's too many tools in an enterprise, you have this tool shed effect where there's no real platform around it, and I call it a tool shed, but if you have too many tools laying around, they're not cohesively integrated, that's a problem that becomes tool sprawl. So this has become an issue. We saw it in the big data world. We saw unification as a strategy for that. Databricks, for example, is a great example of one company that's taken advantage of that trend. Is there a tool problem in the dev space that GitLab's taken advantage of? >> Absolutely, John. And I think something we're going to dig in deep today, we've got a couple of practitioners on, we've got the partners, we've got the executive team from GitLab. John, thank you so much for helping me kick off GitLab Commit 2020 and a massive schedule of theCUBE coverage throughout the entire cloud native multicloud ecosystem. All right, be sure to check out thecube.net for all of the shows that we will be out in 2020 as well as a tremendous back catalog that you can search. For John Furrier, I'm Stu Miniman. Thank you for watching theCUBE. (electronic music)

>>from San Francisco. It's the Cube covering. Get lab commit 2020 Brought to you by get lab. >>I am stupid, man, and this is the Cubes coverage of Get Lab. Commit 2020 here in San Francisco. Still hard saying 2020 and not thinking we're in the future. Joining us first time on the program. Darren Murph, who's the head of remote at get lab and a little birdie, told me that he also has a Guinness Book of World record. So, >>Darren, before we get >>into your day job, bring us back, is it? It's, uh, it's an interesting thing. >>Yeah, it's true. Surreal to have their records. So I'm the world's most prolific professional blogger, which is kind of crazy of Britain. About 10 million words or so When the record was given, it was about 17,000 articles, which was an article published every two hours, 24 7 for four straight years, which actually makes my chest hurt just a bit saying that out loud. >>But Darrin, I'm going thio going to do the Turing test right now >>because I'm not sure you're human being. I have been a blogger. When I had my regular cadence of 2 to 3 articles a week and knew the you know, 10 p.m. When the kids were in bed when I would do that stuff. The amount of words you're saying, um, you know that does not compute with me, but amazing stuff. Congratulations on. And you still you don't keep up that pace >>anymore. Try actually, part of >>my job here, get Lab is to make the all remote section of our handbook a lot bigger and better than it. ISS. So I'm still cranking away very different capacity than covering consumer electronics, but still cranking. Yeah, all right. >>Remote? Yes. Really interesting topic. When we talk about the future of work, you talk about the gig economy. There's all these ways that, you know, how do we leverage and enable global and changing workforce? And it's really fascinating. Get lab over 1100 employees and completely remote keynote this morning talked about, you know, the woman in New Zealand that's completely cut off with everything except for the Internet. She does her own power and everything like that, but she could just be part of the team and you don't even know. So tell us a little bit. What does that mean? Head of remote for your >>old. So as we've grown, it's It's interesting. There's an intersection of hiring and recruiting, talent branding, but also process. So we have a lot of people joining the company that come from co located spaces. And there's a certain acclamation period to getting used to remote and doing remote. Well, you think about people that have joined a co located company. They walk into an office where they've had a professional design, their office space. So they have ergonomic chairs, ergonomic monitors. Everything is set up for them. But if you're working from home or working for some wires from somewhere outside of an office, now that's on. You did. How do you do meetings? Well, how do you do? A synchronous Well, so part of my role is to work through those processes to make sure everyone, when they're on board and get lab, is giving the best possible experience. If they're coming into a remote role for the first time, >>you do you have any bias towards it makes sense to just build it in my home. Is it good to go to Oh, You know, I live in Cambridge, Massachusetts, and there's this cool place where I can go where they have good coffee and the people I can hang out with everything in between. What are some of the best >>practices there? The beauty of all remote is we don't say you have to work from home. You can work from anywhere. So wherever you're most comfortable, maybe that's a co working space. Maybe that's at a friend's house. Maybe that's a different place. Every month we have people that travel all around the world and every month or in a different time zone. That's the beauty of it. So we have over 1100 employees, but none of them operate their days quite the same as anyone else, and that that's the beauty of a super diverse and inclusive team. And, well, actually reimburse co working space expensing expenses. If you just feel more comfortable working in a group or you need to leave your home for any reason. Okay, >>um, we talked to sit a little bit about, you know, does this remote work for every type of job? His feedback from the light Combinator people were like, If you're in finance, It might not be the best fit on dhe one. Understand? How does the software help does it if if I'm someone that's doing development, you know, doesn't poke me every once in a while and say, Hey, you know, maybe you should eat and sleep every once in a while And you know, you've been going at this a little long time, you know? How does both the kind of the kind of HR and the technology piece fit together? >>Well, we hire people that are managers of one, so having a high degree of autonomy is really important. So you need to have a lot of self awareness in managing your day, and that includes taking breaks. And so we encourage people to take vacation, take breaks whenever they need it, and again everyone is different. So we enable people to take that as they need that. But no doubt when you're hiring, you want to look for things like that. It helps to have some experience in the working world, definitely with interns in junior level level level people, you need to check in with them more often because managing their own time and themselves when you're not in an office setting can feel a bit far, but actually get lab. The product is tailor made for remote teams because it's built by remote and even on the marketing side of things where no code really is involved. We use it to manage entire projects and entire events. And the beauty of that is it hones in on documentation, which is essential to do remote. Well, so we say any part of a project that you're moving forward try to move that forward and add context in a way that someone else who may be asleep right now when they wake up and read your stuff along the way they have context of what you did and can pick it up from there and move it on to the next step so that that helps us work really well, remotely. But honestly, that is probably useful for co located teams as well. And so a lot of people look at us as all you know, you have this all remote team. Things must be drastically different, but the truth is, all remote forces you to do things that you should be doing anyway. Transparency, documentation iteration. We just have to do them much more quickly and much more intentionally. >>Yeah, when everybody gets together event like this, Are they okay being on the same room, or do they want to go documents and things and hand things off? >>The funny thing about that is people will often say I don't know if I could I could work well in a remote environment because I really love the energy of being with other people. And the truth is in person, interactions are vital to a remote company. We have to be really intentional about that as well. So we get a CZ many people, as we can together for things like get lab, commit and get lab, contribute where we invite the entire company. But the subtle differences when you're in a co located space and you see people on a daily basis, sometimes you can take for granted in person interactions you have because you think I'll just see them again and again and again, but never in a remote setting. When you have to be intentional about when you'll see a person, it's it's there's a certain level of energy and, um, you proactively look forward to moments like that because you don't get them is often. So we build a lot of great bonds and relationships around those key in person moments. >>Is there anything along the communication technologies that you recommend you use video conference thing or, you know, phone calls? Or you know what some of the recommended How do I make sure you get, you know, some high bandwith interacting? >>There's a few tools that we use that didn't exist not too long ago, but because they exist now they've made all remote as a concept far more approachable and feasible. Google Docks is a big one. We cover agendas and things like that and something that could be edited by multiple people at once. Zuma's another one. Zoom is really amazing for video communication because many, many dozens of people hundreds of people, could be on the same call. And with very little technical difficulty, everyone can communicate well, which has been amazing for us being able to see each other on connect on a meaningful in a meaningful way, and the last one is actually get lab the product. So we build our handbooks. We have over 3000 pages of publicly accessible Get Live Handbook, How We Do Everything that is All publicly available on the Web and built and edited by Get Lab the product. So as we use get lab product to edit and iterated on their handbook, we as a get lab team see things that could be done better, more efficiently, and that gives us a flywheel of making the product better and then making the handbook better. So, >>Darren, I'm just curious where there any kind of interesting findings that you've had, uh, going to a company this size now with everything remote that you know, surprises >>the team. Well, I've worked remotely my entire career in different stages of remote. So some of the companies have been about 50 50 and some have been most of the people in the office. And then I've been one of maybe 10% of the company that works. Outside of it, you see all different facets of how people and companies communicate when you're in a hybrid remote setting. But the beautiful thing about all remote is it truly makes everyone a first class citizen. So a lot of people will say in a hybrid setting. If I don't go to the office frequently enough, miss out on some things. Or maybe I miss out on praise or promotion opportunities. Things like that. You feel like a second class citizen. So in, in in, in an environment like that, you have to take certain approaches to include people. You have to think about it intentionally to include those remote individuals, whereas if it's all remote, you're all on a level playing field. I think the other interesting thing is we have an amazingly diverse team over 65 countries because we hire the world's best talent from wherever they are. And so you'll be talking with someone on a call and you'll just see what's in their background. You think that looks completely foreign to where I am, and it's an amazing way to engage with someone and learn about them, learn about a new culture and truly keep a more global perspective. And lastly, all remote enables a workforce that may have been rejected at other stages of the workforce. So things like caregivers or working parents or military spouses where their spouse has to move at each new deployment. Ah, lot of these people might say, You know, it's too complicated to continue to reinvent my career with every move along the way in an all remote setting. Your job goes with you as those changes in life happened. And I just think that's going to become more than Norm, where the notion of moving for a career will seem silly, like the career should just follow you, no matter where life takes you. >>Yeah, I guess that lets follow upon that is we've reached a point where people expect, you know, immediate response. It's a text. It's something like that. When I'm dealing with dispersed and remote, how do you make How do you is that something you deal with? Is it something that is a team monitoring and handling that? But how do I make sure that I'm a little? I would I think, that it has to be a little bit more forgiving of not being an instant response. >>I tell you, all remote is actually much better for your mental health insanity than other settings, and it's because it forces us to work a synchronously. There's no other way to do it. We have people spread or call 65 countries, so almost every time zone is covered. But that also means there's almost a guarantee that someone on your team isn't a vastly different times, so they may be asleep the entire time. Europe working. We also allow people to just structure their day day today differently, depending on what they have going on appointments, things they need to attend to with their Children, things like that. So within a single as mindset, it enables all of us to take a step back and just assume that whatever we're doing is done with no one else online, so it can removes the burden of this nonstop string of slag messages where you have to respond to things immediately within a given time frame. We don't operate in that construct. I'll tell you, just from a mental health standpoint, when you have an entire company that embraces that were all given a little more breathing room to do really good. Deep work requires long periods of uninterrupted time, and we've seen massive improvements on the product and just team morale. When we embrace that and I feel like as a whole as a society, we're getting close to a tipping point where people are just to their limit on how many more slack messages or e mails or pings or urgent, urgent, urgent things they could do while also doing their job well. So we may be a little bit ahead of the curve on that. But my hope is that the industry at large embraces that allows the people more time to actually do the work they were hired. >>Darren Murph love the idea. Hope it definitely spreads beyond. Everybody absolutely can use the breathing room and being able to focus because we we know that multitasking really is a myth when it comes down to it. So great to be able to chat with you in person and thank you for all the >>work you're doing. A remote. Thanks for having me here. I appreciate it. All right, check out the cube dot net for all of our coverage, whether you were at an event or watching remote or after it, >>we've got all the content for you to meet him in. Thank you for watching the Cube

>> Announcer: From San Francisco it's theCUBE, covering GitLab Commit 2020. Brought to you by GitLab. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and this is theCUBE's coverage of GitLab Commit 2020 here in San Francisco. Happy to welcome to the program a first-time guest off the keynote stage this morning, the co-founder and CEO of GitLab, Sid Sijbrandij. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. >> All right, so Sid, first of all congratulations, good energy here at the show, GitLab, definitely a company I hear lots about in my travels, so we were super excited to bring theCUBE here. So many different things on the momentum of the company, where you're going, but, I love when I have a founder on. Let's rewind a little bit as to kind of the core 'why' of the company and the skillset that that early team brought. >> Sure, the 'why' is, Demitri started GitLab in 2011. He was living in the Ukraine, he had two things he wanted to improve in life. He would like running water, he would like better collaboration software at work. And he started with what he perceived as the most important problem to solve, so he built GitLab to have that better collaboration software. I only saw it a year later, and I thought, this makes so much sense that the thing you collaborate with is also something you can collaborate on at its open source. >> Yeah, it's interesting, 'cause you say collaboration, and we saw through the Enterprise 2.0 wave and various communication technologies, I interviewed one of your partners Mattermost which is kind of related there. You get there to GitLab, which in the early days, I heard a lot about oh, is this a GitHub alternative? So how did the SCM piece end up there? >> Yeah, so we started with the SCM piece, that's what Demitri made first because he had a need for it. And it evolved, it's now a complete DevOps platform all the way from planning what you want to do on a high level to monitoring, releasing, securing what you've built. And that wasn't intuitive to us. And it came about because Demitri made Version Control, but he also made GitLabCI. That's two separate applications. And at a certain point, someone outside the company contributed a better version of GitLabCI, his name is Kamil, and we said that's amazing, we'll make that official, and do you want to join? And he joined and after a few months he said, I think we should combine the two in a single application. And my co-founder Demitri explained how he was wrong. These two are perfectly integrated, couldn't be any better. Custom-made PIs, same single sign-on, same idea of what a user can do. He also explained how he was wrong because everything in a DevOps tuning space was a point solution, people wanted to mix and match. And he kept pushing for it, and at a certain point, he said look, you might not believe that everything I say, but one thing is for sure, we'll be able to kind of ship at a faster rate if we combine it. And that was important to us, we're all about efficiency. But it turns out, he was also right about the benefits for the user. People reported like, it's so much easier having everything in a single interface, being on the same page with my other departments. And that's how we stumbled across this secret, like hey, this whole DevOps space, it started from just a few applications but now people are using 15, 20 different applications and the hand-offs between the applications were the problem. And that we could solve by bringing them together. So we doubled down on that strategy, so that's how that came about. >> Yeah, I mean there's no doubt that tool sprawl is a huge issue in the marketplace, yet when you talk to developers, when they learn a tool, they tend to really love it and they all go to bat as to, well, I sort it out and I found the best one for whatever piece of it. So how do you balance really building out a platform but if there's a piece of it that they still want to use they can, how do you balance that? >> Yeah, you got to make sure that you don't lock people in. The last thing someone wants is that they have to use everything. So open APIs, many integrations, some of which we maintain ourselves with a Jenkins and a Jura and a GitHub. But also, you make sure that sometimes people care very much about the certain piece of frictionality. So with GitLab, if they don't like a certain piece, they can improve it, they can contribute back. And every month, 200 improvements come from our users. They had something in their old application that they really liked, and now they get to add that to GitLab, and that's how you kind of take away all the objections over time. >> Yeah. Love you to comment on just the explosive growth that you've been seeing, you're now over 1100 employees, you talked about how much outside contribution you're getting there, but the amount of features that you're adding, and you're releasing every month. How do you manage the growth of the company, the growth of the product, and make sure that the company doesn't lose focus? >> Yeah. I think that we've done a really good job of splitting up the tasks of making sure every team has a part of the product that they're responsible for. They don't have to go to five other teams to get sign-off. And if you Google GitLab categories, you can find out exactly which team is responsible for the back end, for the front end, who's the product manager, who's the product marketing manager, for a specific piece of functionality. So I think that's really helped us, making sure the teams can still ship and they're not bogged down because other people don't have time. >> Yeah, the mission is that everyone can contribute, and you're looking to really help companies solve one of the key problems of being a software company, which is reducing cycle time. How does that translate into growth and revenue for your business? >> Yeah, so that cycle, the time between planning to do something and getting it out to users, that's what companies need to become software companies. And they're seeing that they're able to do that faster with GitLab. And we've seen amazing growth, we just announced we're over 100 million ARR, we're seeing amazing growth in revenue, so we're more than doubling revenue every year, we've almost tripled the amount of people working at GitLab last year to keep up with that growth. >> Yeah, very interesting dynamic, you had a sizable round of funding towards the end of 2019, congratulations on the milestone, you said in February 2020 you hit 100 million dollars ARR. I guess the question, it's publicly stated that you're looking to IPO later this year. We've seen many unicorns out there delaying what they're doing, they wait until they have 300 million dollars in revenue. Is there a reason why you're charging towards an IPO? >> We want to become a public company sooner rather than later, because first of all, we think it fits us. We're a very transparent company, we don't mind sharing what we're about and what our financials are. The second thing is, I think one of the big things holding GitLab back is that we're not as well known. And becoming a public company will help spread awareness about what we can do. And that's one of the most important things we can do. So that's why we're going forward, we'll go public when we're ready, when the market is ready. We think that's this year, we might be wrong, we'll see how it ends up this year. But we're looking forward to that, and we're looking forward to being even more transparent, and also sharing our financials. >> Sid, one of the things you said, you're over 1000 employees, and you're completely remote, as far as we know, the largest company that is 100% remote. Talk a little bit about kind of the challenges from building a culture in that type of environment but it's also something that I think GitLab's helping to enable other companies along that same journey. >> Yeah, we're figuring out a lot of things you have to do to be all remote, and we're trying to share those lessons. And that's anything from working handbook first to communication styles and being intentional about informal communications. So if you Google GitLab all remote, you'll find tons of tips. And those are based not just on what we say, but what we do. We have a public handbook of over 3000 pages with all our internal processes. You can check what we really do to make this work. And I think it's going to be the future. In the future, companies who make digital products are going to be much more all remote. And we want to enable that trend. We think it's great for team members, we think it helps you reduce your commute time, it helps you to be able to intersperse what you do at the company with what you do in your private life, you're able to go the gym or the supermarket when it's not busy, and also it helps be more flexible. So its great for team members, it's also great for companies. You get to attract people wherever they are, get much more access to talent, and the talent that people can stay with you year over year. We have a 85% retention of people who stay with GitLab every year. >> Is that something you think that spans across whatever roles they are, lots of companies that I talk to they'll have their developing groups, will be highly distributed. We've seen global development work forces for decades now, but marketing roles or product teams often have been in regional offices, obviously if you've got sales forces, groups that often they will have regional offices. So is this specific for the digital and development type organizations, or is this something you think will span across other roles? >> When we graduated at Y Combinator, they told us all this work's for engineering. It maybe works for sales because they're close to the customer. It doesn't work for finance, it doesn't work for marketing. And I think we've proven that it does work. Our marketing team is all in on GitLab. But also, we've seen other marketing teams. There was a presentation today by someone who runs a marketing team, and they're using GitLab. Not just for the issues, but they're even version controlling, they're copying, they're messaging in GitLab, so, I think the time has come to accept that the tools have gotten so good, and people have gotten so knowledgeable that it works across all departments. >> Yeah, Sid, I'd like you to comment on your partner ecosystem, that you said everything's open, so therefore there's no lock-in. How do you build more community from your peers from the vendor ecosystem? >> Yeah, you see here today we have different vendors out that they get customers here that integrate with us. There's vendors here, we have an alternative in GitLab. But they have something that they think adds unique value, and we want to give them a podium. We want people to know that we're not locking them in. So we're very helpful, we're trying to be helpful, get them on our blog, get them media, because nobody wants to be locked into one solution. So that's a really important message that we're sending. >> All right. Sid, why don't you give the final word, you've said people, GitLab is not yet a household name, what do you want to make sure that people understand who GitLab is and why they're important for the future of software development? >> Yeah, so we're a complete DevOps platform delivered as a single application, and we help people go much faster. At Goldman Sachs they went for the most important application, they went from two weeks to get that out the door to two hours to get that out the door. That's the value we can bring, because you don't have to go to 15 point solutions to get your work done. Much better visibility, people can switch teams, you have a good overview of your security posture, your productivity. That's the value we're bringing. You can reduce people's, their licensing cost, their costs of integrating things, but most importantly we can help them go faster and get to revenue faster. >> Sid Sijbrandij, thank you so much for joining us on the program, really appreciate theCUBE coming to GitLab Commit. >> Awesome, thanks for coming. >> All right, I'm Stu Miniman, check out theCUBE.net for all the shows we will be at in 2020. Thank you for watching theCUBE.

>> Presenter: From San Francisco, it's theCUBE. Covering GitLab Commit 2020. Brought to you by GitLab. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, and this is theCUBE's coverage of GitLab Commit 2020 here in San Francisco. You might notice some of our guests have some jackets on. It is a little cooler than normal here in San Francisco, but the community and knowledge is keeping us all warm. Joining us for the first time on the program is Nicholas Klick, who is an engineering manager at GitLab. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks for inviting me. >> Alright, so you had an interesting topic. The state of serverless in 2020 was the session that you gave. Definitely a topic we love covering on theCUBE, something I personally have been digging into, trying to understand. Definitely something that the developers, and especially the app devs that I speak with, are very bullish on, so what is the state of serverless in 2020? >> That's actually a good question. So, my talk was actually broken into two parts. One was, like initially I just wanted to help provide a clear definition of what serverless is. In my opinion, serverless is more than just functions. There are a lot of other a lot of other technologies, like backend is a service, API gateways, service integration proxies that you can stitch together to create dynamic applications. So, I created a more expanded definition of what serverless is from my perspective, and the other part was to really talk about three things that I'm finding exciting right now in the serverless space. The first was Knative, and the fact that Knative is likely going to go to GA pretty soon, so it'll be production ready, and we can finally build production workloads on it. The second is that running serverless at the edge I find to be an exciting topic. And then finally, talking more in depth on those, the service integrations. Of how you can actually create applications that don't include functions at all, so functionless serverless. >> Yeah, so a lot of things I definitely want to tease out of that, but Nicholas, I guess maybe we should step back a second-- >> Nicholas: Okay. >> And was there survey work, or was there something done, or is this kind of something related to your job that you put together as just an important topic? >> Yeah, I know this is just me speaking as someone that works in the space and sees the technology is evolving and just my opinions, I guess. >> Okay, when I talk to the practitioners, when you go and say, "Oh, they're interested in it." Chances are they're doing stuff on Amazon, is like what kind of the first piece of it tends to be. There are lots of open source projects out there, but it's still this kind of dominated by Amazon. Azure has some pieces, of course. Google has things they're doing. I liked how you teased out that serverless definitely isn't a thing, and the definition, and even the term itself, gets people all riled up and things like that, so I hate getting into the ontological arguments, but the promise of it is that I can build applications in a different way, and I shouldn't have to think about some of the underlying components, hence the name serverless, kind of-- >> Right. >> does that, but it definitely is a change in mindset as to how I build and consume environments. >> Right. Right, and like another point that I made in the talk, that I believe pretty strongly, is that serverless is not something that's going to replace monoliths and microservices. I believe it's another tool in the tool belt of the developer, of the operator, to solve problems, and that we should look at it like that. It shouldn't be, it's not the next progression in application architecture. >> Yeah, I've met some companies that are 100%, they've built everything on serverless, but that's like saying I've met plenty of companies that are all in the cloud. It depends on what you do and what your business is. >> Nicholas: Right. >> When we look at the enterprise, it is a broad spectrum, and making changes along that path is something that typically takes a decade or more, and they have hundreds, if not thousands of applications, and therefore, we understand. I've got my stuff running on my mainframe through my latest microservice architecture, and everything in between. >> Right, and I mean I'm speaking as an employee of GitLab, and we have a very well known monolith that we deploy, and so for my opinion, I don't believe that monoliths are going to die any time soon. >> Alright, I'd love you to tease out some of those pieces that you talked about, the three items you talked about: Knative. You know, Knative is interesting. The thing I poked at when I go to KubenCon and CloudNativeCon is today I mentioned when I think about customers, most of them are using Amazon. The second choice is they're probably doing Azure, and today Knative directly doesn't work with EKS, AKS, or the like. I know there's a solution like trigger match that actually will interact-- >> Right. >> Between the Amazon and there, but don't you need the buy-in of Amazon and Microsoft for Knative to be taken seriously. And the other thing is, Google still hasn't opened up the-- >> Right. >> the Google controls, the governance of both Istio and Knative, and there are some concerns in the ecosystem about that, so what makes you so bullish on Knative. >> Yeah, so I'm definitely aware of some of the discussions around Knative. From my perspective, I think that Knative is, if someone is already operating a lot of Kubernetes infrastructure, if they already have those, that infrastructure running, then deploying Knative to it is not that much more of a it doesn't require additional resources and expense, so it could be, again it depends on their use case, and I think that, when I think about serverless, I try to remain pragmatic, so if I'm already using Kubernetes, and I want a simple serverless runtime, Knative would be a great option in that situation. If I want to be able to work cross-cloud, like this is another opportunity that Knative provides, is the ability of deploying to any Kubernetes cluster anywhere, so it has that, you know, that, there's not a vendor lock-in issue with Knative. >> Yeah, and absolutely there was initially some concern that, could serverless actually be the ultimate lock-in? >> Right. >> I'm going to go deep on one provider and don't have a way. There, open source groups like the CNCF trying to help along those ways-- >> Sure. >> Knative absolutely along those ways looking at that environment. From a GitLab customer's standpoint, GitLab's not tied to whether you're doing containers or serverless or VMs or in the environment. What does it mean for GitLab customers? If I want to look at serverless, how does that fit into my overall work flow? >> Yeah, so initially at GitLab we focused on providing the ability to deploy to Knative. That was, we were very early in the Knative space, and I think that as it's matured, as those APIs have matured, then our product has kind of developed, and so right now we enable you to be able to create Kubernetes clusters through our interface and then deploy your function run times directly from your GitLab repo. We've also, are kind of growing in our our examples and documentation of how to integrate GitLab CI/CD with Lambda. That's another big area that we're moving into as well. >> Great. As you look forward to 2020, we've got a whole new decade in front of us, what should, what do you think people should be watching on in the maturity of this space. >> Yeah, so I think that the point that I touched on earlier of the service integrations, I think that that is something you're going to see more and more of. Of the providers themselves linking together their different services and enabling you to create these dynamic applications without a lot of glue that you have to manually create in between. I think that we're going to see, you know, more open source frameworks, like, for example, Service Framework or Terraform that people want the, I mean, I know that a lot of people use, for example, AWS SAM. People want easier ways, and faster ways, to be able to deploy their serverless, so you have the bootstrapping of serverless. I guess, another thing that I expect is that the serverless, the serverless development life cycle will mature, in that whether going from bootstrapping to testing, deployment, monitoring security, I believe you're going to see companies that will start to really fill in that entire space, the same way that they do for monoliths and microservices. >> Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much, Nicholas. Definitely something we've been tracking over the last year or so. You start to see many in the tool chain of cloud native environments digging into serverless, helping to mature those solutions, and definitely an area to watch closely. >> Great. >> Alright. Lot's more coverage. Check out theCUBE.net for all the events that we will be at through 2020 as well. If you can go back and see we've actually done Serverlessconf a couple of years, many of the other cloud and cloud native shows. Search in our index. I'm Stu Miniman, and thank you for watching theCUBE. (energetic electronic music)

>>From San Francisco. It's the cube covering get lab commit 2020 Rocky you buy get lab. >>Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and this is the cubes coverage of get lab commit 2020 here in San Francisco. Kicking off our coverage of 2020 a great developers show talking about the, the platform they get. Lab is building and have one of the keynote presenters from this morning. Christy Lineville who is the user experience director at get lab. Thanks so much for joining us. My pleasure. All right, so th one of the things that uh, you know you and was talking, talking in the keynote this morning was we have the scroll of tools and of course one of the challenges people know is if you're talking different tools in different environments, the user interface is going to be different. And therefore the stat I heard in the keynote was over 50% of dev ops time is wasted on logistics and repetitive tasks and all these environments. Before we dig into it. Christie, I'd love just a little bit about your background because you hinted at it a little bit in your keynote that some past experiences you've had. So what, what led you to this role at get lab? >>Yeah, so I've been in tech for about 20 years. Um, didn't go to school thinking that I would be a UX or one day because 20 years ago, frankly it wasn't even a thing. Um, but over the years I've gotten to work at Dell and general motors, Rackspace and then a regional company that's still huge called HEB. So lots of enterprise, lots of tech, um, which is areas that I'm just really passionate about. UX and, >>yeah, well we, we, we talk so much about Keck. Um, I love, one of the things I've looked at my career is there's the cool tech button, you know, what is, how does design fit into these, you know, there's of course the easy examples of Apple, but you know, so many of the products, when you talk about the difference between it being a utility, and I love this thing often is the design. And that, that, that user experience piece of it, um, in the dev ops software world, give us a little bit of your world challenges that you're seeing. What differentiates a, you know, an okay product versus something that customers are going to be like, you know, I love this. I want everybody to use it and, you know, want to spread, spread the gospel. >>Yeah. Um, so building the types of tools that we are building at get lab isn't sexy or like working at Apple. Um, but I'll tell you this, the designers who work on these types of tools are really deeply passionate about creating great experiences for people to do their jobs every day. Um, which is actually really exciting work. So what's interesting though is oftentimes people are coming from using these very outdated legacy tools. Oftentimes their internal tools, uh, they just don't have a great experience. So we get really excited about being able to take the type of tool that someone is kind of like, these folks don't have a choice. They're not getting to decide which tool they get to use to do their job. They have to use it. And we're really respectful of that. Just because they have to use it doesn't mean that we want to take advantage of that. Uh, we want it to be a really excellent experience. >>All right, so Christie, I had heard before when you talk about get lab there, there's dev, there's sec, there's ops in the keynote, you talked, even groups like finance and marketing need to get involved. There's very different expectations and skill set when you talk about those roles. So it helped me understand a little bit, are there different interfaces based on my roles? Is it just so simple that anybody should be able to understand it? Help us understand. >>Yeah. So that's the goal. I'm not going to tell you that they're there yet today, but that's the idea. So yeah, having worked in tech for such a long time, um, it's, I've got a lot of, uh, experience with watching different roles, try to interact with these technical teams that need the tech teams for them. This is, this is bread and butter stuff. They know exactly what's going on. And, uh, other roles really try to kind of bring themselves to the developers and that's what we're trying to make easy. So things like taxonomy play a huge role in that. The way that, uh, deeply technical people talk about the work that they do is very different from how people in other roles do. And we're starting to think about how we can converge those two things just to make it easy for everyone. >>No, I love that because a few years ago there was Oh, developers and the new kingmakers and they're going to do off their thing, but it kind of seemed like the developers were off on the side and they were going to choose their tools and figure things out and then somebody eventually needed to pay for something and figure out how it works in the environment. The story I'm hearing and the maturation of that is developers are closer to the business and these roles need to talk and communicate and fit together. Is that what you're seeing? >>Yeah, that's absolutely right. >>All right, so get lab also your, your product line spans of just a broad spectrum. There's, yeah, I don't have memorize the 10 categories that you need to fit. Um, I believe there was a couple of acquisitions, uh, that helped grow here. But you start with SCM and CII. Those alone, making sure that those work together is a certain bit of work. But how do you, how do you span the gamut and make sure that all these various pieces, uh, I'm going to have some kind of coherent experience. >>Yeah. So we're also thinking about project planning that happens before SCM NCI ever starts. Um, and so we're thinking about how do we make it easy to take something from an idea, an issue directly into that build process. Um, and then after that it's like, okay, so then what happens next? Keeping it secure, um, and then watching it to see what's going on it and then just getting it out onto infrastructure through our ops features. Okay. >>Talk a little bit about how you interact with the ecosystem in the community. Also, it's everything is open to, you know, understand, you know, I want them to see the meeting minutes. I can dive right in and do it. And we heard lots of examples in the presentations about, Oh, some change has been made or you know, your CEO joke to somebody corrects my grammar. And that not necessarily, Oh, maybe it is someone inside the company, but uh, you know, that dynamic is to make sure you have something that is coherent when you have so many different internal and external constituencies that will be opinionated as how things should go. >>Yeah. Um, so let's see here. Um, ask me again. Sorry. >>Yeah. So you get all these other constituents that, that want to kind of have a stake and probably have an opinion as to how things should go. How do you make sure it works, not just forget lab but all of your customers and the partner ecosystem that you're building around it. >>Thank you. And so we do take the comments that come in on issues very seriously. Uh, my team is looking at that. Our product managers are certainly looking at that. Um, and we look at that as directional information. Where my team really takes that though is then we dive in and we do UX research. Um, so we are very mindful of the fact that the comments that are coming in, um, we don't take them literally, uh, we take them as kind of advice about where do you dig in next? And so what my team is doing is figuring out, uh, what roles are really interested in this future going out and either doing surveys or talking directly to customers doing qualitative interviews, or we're sitting down and saying, okay, so we get it. You have some feedback here and that's wonderful, but what were you trying to do? How did you even get here? Where did you want to go next? What things are working well for you? What things aren't working as well? And then that's a lot of what we do. >>Um, you've got a global environment that this is going into. What, what challenges does that put on what you're doing? >>Yeah, it brings a lot of challenges. Uh, one of the bigger challenges that it brings is in our UI copy, right? Um, so field labels, things like that. We really try to be mindful about that. Uh, so in a couple of different ways. So, um, the way that people talk about things a is different throughout the world. We try to be mindful about not using things like jargon. Um, so that everything is clear and easy to understand no matter where you are. We also think about things though like length of text, which can have a really big impact. So we know German tends to have some long words. We have to be mindful of that as we're writing UX copy. Cause in the end we want this to be as easy for everyone to understand as possible the moment that they look at it. All right. >>Uh, how about announcements? Uh, we, I understand the 22nd of every month is when a code drops. So just bring us up to speed as to what people should know about boat get lab product today. >>Yeah. So we, we released features at an industry changing velocity. I have never seen anything like it. Um, and from a, I'm always gonna think from a UX perspective, UX is deeply involved in that. So there is not a release that goes by where you as a customer or a user can't actually see the impact of the release. Yeah. Things are happening behind the scenes and we're shoring things up and strengthening the backend, but we're doing things on the front end constantly. Um, and my designers and researchers know that that's like they're on the hook for that. And so they're always thinking about like, what's that next thing that we can deliver? >>All right, so Kristi, dark mode for everything. >>dark mode has definitely been something that we have heard from our user base that they really want. Um, something that we're working on is a good design system so that we have single source of truth components we'll make that'll make it much easier for us to do the dark mode that we know is a legitimate ask from our user base. >>Yeah, absolutely. Anything else? Uh, just trends or things that you're looking at for 2020 >>trends that we're looking at? No, it's interesting. I'll be honest, I don't think that we think a lot about trends. What we're really doing is we're looking at the feedback that's coming in directly from our user base and then we're trying to make decisions based on that. Um, so actually I don't, I couldn't say that we have any trends. >>Well, you know, mobile drove a lot of the last decade or so. Are any of the voice or interactive, you know, type of platforms have any impact on what you're doing yet? >>Yeah, so we, uh, we are thinking about mobile. We're not thinking about in the term about it in terms of, uh, native mobile apps. We're really trying to think about it in terms of just making a really good responsive experience. Uh, we're trying to get a better sense of which jobs, um, are most commonly done on mobile devices so that we can focus first on making those better. Um, but that's also something we're trying to think about with every design. So I see my designers doing a really good job these days. So they, you know, they put together a design, they're thinking about it in terms of desktop, and then I see them pivot and think, okay, so what does this now look like on a mobile device? So we have a lot of work to do in this area. I'm not going to tell you that we don't, but I see us getting better and better all the time. >>All right, Christie, thanks so much for giving us all the updates. Really great to dig into it. It's been my pleasure. Alright, I'm Stu Miniman and thank you for watching the cube.

(lively music) >> Narrator: From San Francisco, it's theCUBE. Covering GitLab Commit 2020. Brought to you by GitLab. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman. And this is the theCUBE's exclusive coverage of GitLab Commit 2020, here in San Francisco. You might notice it's a little chilly in San Francisco today. Welcome to the program, first time against Vince Stammegna who is the senior director of engineering at Axway and you can tell by the GitLab Commit jacket that he's a speaker at the show and good thing to wear that one today, yes, Vince? >> Yes, it's very very chilly here. But we're all having a great time. >> Yeah, absolutely. It's the warmth of the community that that's keeping everyone going. First of all, I believe it's first time we have Axway on our program, so people that don't know, tell us a little bit about Axway. >> Sure, Axway is in the business of helping save your company, basically, and help them through the digital transformation. So if you've ever deposited a check electronically on your phone, you've probably, there's a 90% chance you've crossed one of our API gateways or Managed File Transfer systems. So we've helped banks, we've helped hospitals, healthcare, lots of verticals and assisting them through their digital transformation. >> Awesome, so yeah, we love talking about digital transformation. Your presentation here at Commit is actually about journey to cloud. So tell us a little bit about what that means, gets a little bit of you inside what you're going to be sharing with the community here. >> Sure, journey to the cloud is a program that we conceived a couple years ago. And it's all about bringing our company into the cloud native space as well as bringing our existing product line into the cloud, so it can run, it can scale, easy to deploy day to operations. So what we're going to talk about today is basically Axway's journey from, as an ISV going from quarterly and semi-annual deliveries to daily deployments, low change failure rates, fast lead time for changes, so. >> Yeah, it's wonderful things if you hear about DevOps it's all about how we can shorten those release cycles and have those continuous feedback loops. So how long have you been with Axway? >> I've been with Axway for four years now. >> Okay, so yeah, bring us inside a little bit that journey is, what are the ripple effects as you try to tighten things down and not get on the train but just ship and ship and ship. (chuckling) >> Yeah, absolutely. I can say that it's a journey that really requires vigilance. It's constant practice, continuous learning to be lean. So if I were to describe the journey, it's about contributing together, working as one team to build one platform. And that's across DevOps and security. We'll go into a bit about how we really shift, shift in security-left this year by working closely with them. We really took the time to seek to understand their needs as well as the security team understanding our needs in terms of continuous deployment. And we work together on a solution called the Continuous Security Review, allows us to get to the deployment frequency of multiple times per day versus the deployment frequency before that we still followed the traditional initial security review, final security review. We could only release once a sprint, two weeks. >> Yeah, a mantra we've heard at many of the shows we go to is, "security is everyone's responsibility." Was there a lot of training that needed to be done? Did you have to, did the security people kind of lock everybody in the room and make them watch films? Or how did you work through some of these changes? >> That's a great question. So there are a lot of things that our product security group does along with our cloud security team. They do have training globally for Axway not only for the development team, operations team as well. They also, we also have built cross-functional teams within our scrum teams. So our scrum teams contain what's called a SPOC, a security point of contact, DevOps point of contact, the quality point of contact. And those members of the team help that scrum team have full ownership of that service. So when you say security is everybody's job, it's really security, quality, reliability, scalability, and stability is everybody's job. And when you build those cross-functional teams, you're able to provide the team the capability to have the ownership to take those services into the cloud on a daily basis. >> All right, Vince, help us connect the dots. Axway and GitLab, what's the connection there? >> Another great question. So we became a GitLab customer back in 2015. We were on SVN primarily and through lots of acquisitions, either CVS or SVN, and we were looking at the next generation source control management tool. We actually invested and purchased GitLab for Axway in 2015 because it had non-premise offering and we needed to store all of our source code on-premise. We have contracts with the governments around the world and so that's how our journey started. But what we couldn't have imagine was how it was going to evolve. And that's why we're so happy with GitLab. They really take our feedback seriously. A lot of things that we've asked them to go ahead and implement, they've gone and iterated and implemented those things. Allowed us to test features, get faster feedback. One of the things we were looking for was EKS recently as a native way to, basically, plug an EKS as a GitLab runner and run your workloads there. That was implemented, I think, within the last release or two releases ago. So we really appreciate GitLab's responsiveness with their product. >> Okay, yes, you're talking about Amazon's Kubernetes. >> Yes. >> Of course they're so, you talked about on-premises, what is your cloud deployment? Are you multicloud now or, what's and where does Kubernetes fit in that overall discussion? >> Another great question. So our journey to cloud native started with a product called AMPLIFY Central. And what we did was, we start out with docker swarm. We evolved to cops. At the time when we had first gotten our production deployment running on cops, EKS was just in its initial phases of rolling out. We're an Amazon Premier Technology partner. And we actually help them with their evaluation of the initial bit of EKS, give them feed back. A year later, we're looking at it as a way to consolidate platform and allow our teams to focus on building a better product rather than having infrastructure overhead of upgrading infrastructure to, and going through those cycles we can just test the infrastructure before we roll it out. >> All right, so Vince, you're talking a lot about your journey to cloud, what advice do you give to your peers as they're heading down their own journey. >> The advice I give to my peers is to keep calm (chuckles) and we'll go over that in our presentation. But really, it's about behavior change. So it's not just a words that are on some paper that you walk into and you look at. You really have to embody those behaviors and have those feelings about what you're doing. And that's going to change your values and attitudes about how you act and work and help each other out. And that's how you break down silos, and ultimately that's what changes culture. It's your values, attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors that culminate to build a one team, operating as one team to deliver one platform. >> Okay, so you're speaking at the show, obviously you've used GitLab quite a bit. What else, what brings you to this show? What are you hoping to get out of it? >> Just to see what our peers and fellow practitioners are doing in a cloud. See how GitLab's evolving. It was really great keynote this morning from Todd and Sid. So it's great to keep abreast as to what, even some of our customers are here today and to hear their story about how they're moving to the cloud and how might parallel and some things that we can learn from them. That's one of the key behaviors when you move towards cloud native is creating a culture of learning and that's how you grow. >> All right, well, Vince, thanks so much sharing your journey. >> Appreciate it. >> Great to meet you. >> Thanks so much too. >> Best luck with your presentation. And I'm Stu Miniman. This is GitLab Commit 2020. Thanks so much for watching theCUBE. (lively music)

>>from San Francisco. It's the Cube covering. Get lab commit 2020 Brought to you by get lab. >>Welcome back. I'm Stew Minutemen, and this is get lab Commit 2020 here in San Francisco. Happy to welcome to the program. First time guests and TN Who is the co founder and CEO of Matter Most in. Nice to meet you. >>Thanks. Thanks for having me. >>Alright. S O. I always love. When you get the founders, we go back to a little bit of the why. And just from our little bit of conversation, there is a connection with get lab. You have relationships, Syd, Who's the co founder and CEO of get lab? So bring us back and tell us a little bit about that. >>Yeah, thanks. So I'm you know, I'm ex Microsoft. So I came from collaboration for many years there. And then, you know what I did after Microsoft's I started my own started a sort of video game company was backed by Y Combinator and, you know, we had were doing 85. Game engine is very, very fun on. We ran the entire company off of a messaging product. Misses, You know, a little while ago and it happens that messing product got bought by a big company and that got kind neglected. It started crashing and lose data. We were super unhappy. We tried to export and they wouldn't let us export. We had 26 gigs of all information. And when we stop paying our subscription, they would pay one less for our own information. So, you know, very unhappy. And we're like, holy cats. Like what? I'm gonna d'oh! And rather than go to another platform, we actually realized about 10 million hours of people running messaging and video games. Well, why don't we kind of build this ourselves? So we kind of build a little prototype, started using ourselves internally and because, you know, Sid was this a 2015 and said was out of my Combinator, We were y commoner would invent and we started talking. I was showing him what we built and sits like. You should open source that. And he had this really compelling reason. He's like, Well, if you open source it and people like it, you can always close source it again because it's a prototype. But if you open source, it and no one cares. You should stop doing what you do. And he was great. Kind of send me like this email with all the things you need to dio to run open source business. And it was just wonderful. And it just it is a start taking off. We started getting these wonderful, amazing enterprise customers that really saw what mattered most was at the very beginning, which was You know, some people call us open source slack, but what it really is, it's a collaborates, a collaboration platform for real Time Dev ops and it release. For people who are regulated, it's gonna offer flexibility and on Prem deployment and a lot of security and customization. So that's kind of we started and get lab is we kind of started Farley. We started following get labs footsteps and you'll find today with get lab is we're we're bundled with the omnibus. So all you have to do is put what your own would you like matter most on one. Get lab reconfigure and europe running. >>Yeah, I love that. That story would love you to tease out a little bit when you hear you know, open source. You know, communications and secure might not be things that people would necessarily all put together. So help us understand a little bit the underlying architecture. This isn't just, you know, isn't messaging it, Z how is it different from things that people would be familiar with? >>Yeah, that's a great question. So how do you get more secure with open source products? And the one thing look at, I'll just give you one example. Is mobility right? So, in mobile today, if you're pushing them, if you're setting a push notification to an Iowa, sir. An android device, It has a route through, like Google or Android. Right? And whatever app that you're using to send those notifications they're going to see you're going to see your notifications. They have to, right? So you just get encryption all that stuff in order to send to Google and Andrew, you have to send it on encrypted. And you know these applications are not there, not yours. They're owned by another organization. So how do you make that private how to make it secure? So with open source communication, you get the source code. It's an extreme case like we have you know, perhaps you can views, and it's really simple in turnkey. But in the if you want to go in the full privacy, most security you have the full source code. APS. You have the full source code to the system, including what pushes the messages to your APS, and you can compiling with your own certificates. And you can set up a system where you actually have complete privacy and no third party can actually get your information. And why enterprises in many cases want that extreme privacy is because when you're doing incident response and you have information about a vulnerability or breach that could really upset many, many critical systems. If that information leaked out, you really can't. Many people don't want ever to touch 1/3 party. So that's one example of how open source lets you have that privacy and security, because you because you control everything >>all right, what we threw a little bit the speeds and feeds. How many employees do you have? How many did you share? How many customers you have, where you are with funding? >>So where we are funding is, you know, last year we announced a 20 million Siri's A and A 50 million Siri's be who went from about 40 folks the beginning the aired about 100 a t end of the year. We got over 1000 people that contribute to matter most, and what you'll find is what you'll find is every sort of get lab on the bus installations. Gonna have a matter most is gonna have the ability to sort of turn on matter most so very broad reach. It's sort of like one step away. There's lots of customers. You can see it. Get lab commit that are running matter. Most get lab together, so customers are going to include Hey, there's the I T K and Agriculture that's got six times faster deployments running. Get lab in Madame's together, you've got world line. It's got 3000 people in the system, so you've got a lot of so we're growing really quickly. And there's a lot of opportunity working with Get lab to bring get lab into mobile into sort of real times. Dev up scenarios. >>Definitely One of the themes we hear the at the show is that get labs really enabling the remote workforce, especially when you talk about the developers. It sounds like that's very much in line with what matters most is doing. >>Absolutely. Madam Mrs Moat. First, I don't actually know. We're probably in 20 plus countries, and it's it's a remote team. So we use use matter most to collaborate, and we use videoconferencing and issue tracking across a bunch of different systems. And, yeah, it's just it's remote. First, it's how it's how we work. It's very natural. >>Yeah, it just give us a little bit of the inside. How do you make sure, as a CEO that you, you know, have the culture and getting everyone on the same page when many of them, you know, you're not seeing them regularly? Some of them you've probably never met in person, so >>that's a great question. So how do you sort of maintain that culture 11? The concert that get lips pioneered is a continent boring solutions, and it's something that we've taken on as well. What's the most boring solution to preserve culture and to scale? And it's really do what get labs doing right? So get love's hand, looked up. Get lab dot com. We've got handbook that matter most dot com. It's really writing down all the things that how we operate, what our culture is and what are values are so that every person that onboard is gonna get the same experience, right? And then what happens is people think that if you're building, you're gonna have stronger culture because, you know, sort of like, you know, absorbing things. What actually happens is it's this little broken telephone and starts echoing out, and it's opposed to going one source of truth. It's everyone's interpretation. We have a handbook and you're forced to write things down. It's a very unnatural act, and when you force people to write things down, then you get that consistency and every we can go to a source of truth and say, like, This is the way we operate. >>2019 was an interesting year for open source. There were certain companies that were changing their models as toe how they do things. You started it open source to be able to get, you know, direct feedback. But how do you position and talk to people about you know, the role of open source on still being ableto have a business around that >>so open source is, I think there's a generation of open source cos there's three ways you can really make money from open source, right? You can host software, you can provide support, and service is where you can do licensing, which is an open core model. When you see his categories of companies like allowed, you see categories like elastic like Hash corporate Terra Form involved with Get Lab that have chosen the open core model. And this is really becoming sort of a standard on what we do is we fall that standard, and we know that it supports public companies and supports companies with hyper growth like get Lab. So it's a very it's becoming a model that I'm actually quite familiar to the market, and what we see is this this sort of generation, this sort of movement of okay, there was operating systems Windows Circle. Now there's now there's more servers running Lennix than Windows Server. On Azure, you seen virtual ization technology. You've seen databases all sort of go the open source way and we see that it's a natural progression of collaboration. So it's really like we believe collaboration will go the open source way we believe leading the way to do that is through open core because you can generate a sustainable, scalable business that's going to give enterprises the confidence to invest in the right platform. >>All right, in what's on deck for matter most in 2020. >>It's really we would definitely want to work with. Get lab a lot more. We really want to go from this concept of concurrent Dev ops that get labs really champion to say Real time de Bob's. So we've got Dev ops in the world that's taking months and weeks of cycle times. And bring that down to minutes. We want to take you know, all your processes that take hours and take it down to seconds. So what really people, developers air sort of clamoring for a lot is like, Well, how do we get these if I'm regulated if I have a lot of customization needs? If I'm on premise, if I'm in a private network, how do I get to mobile? How do I get quicker interactions on? We really want to support that with instant response with deficit cock use cases and with really having a complete solution that could go from all your infrastructure in your data center, too. You know, that really important person walking through the airport. And that's that's how you speed cycle times and make Deb sec cops available anywhere. And you do it securely and in do it privately. >>All right, thanks so much for meeting with us. And great to hear about matter most. >>Well, thank you. Still >>all right. Be sure to check out the cube dot net for all the coverage that we will have throughout 2020 I'm still minimum. And thanks for watching the cue.

>>From San Francisco. It's the cube covering get lab commit 20, 20 Raji you buy get lab. >>Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and this is the cubes coverage of get lab commit 2020. We're here in San Francisco. It's a little bit chilly but uh, my first guests, uh, on the program are used to the weather cause they're coming to us from Wisconsin. Uh, both from Northwestern mutual, uh, sitting to my left here is Kyle person who is a senior engineer and sitting to his left is Sean who is also a senior engineer. Gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. Thanks for having us. Alright. We thought, you know, both of us coming from colder climates that may be coming to San Francisco would be a little warmer, but they have hand warmers, they have warm drinks and it is the warmth of the community that will warm our innards. I'm short right there. It says get warm. That's what we're here to do. All right, Kyle, let's start with you. Northwestern mutual. I think most people are familiar with the organization, but give us a little bit of a, you know, how people should think of Northwestern mutual in 2020 and, uh, your roles. >>Yeah. So obviously we mean we're a large insurance company but also into financial services and products and we're really trying to become more of a digital company as well. We think that that's going to be a differentiator in the marketplace. You know, having apps that our customers can interact with, um, trying to speed up underwriting, things like that. So we're really just trying to be a technology company as much of an insurance company. Okay, >>great. And Sean, I understand you're, you're on the same team as Kyle helping you along with that digital transformation that that's been all the buzz for the last couple of years. Yeah. He can't get rid of me. We flew, you know, 1200 miles and I'm still sitting next to, uh, but yeah, at Northwestern mutual, I mean, going back a number of years now, the, the company started down this path of doing a digital transformation where we wanted to be, you know, a software company that is providing financial service and financial stability for our clients. So it was a big shift that we, we started, we knew we needed to modernize everything. So we started down that path. Great. So we had that. So Kyle, maybe if you, it can, you know, when did get lab enter the picture, what was kind of the initial use case and, uh, let's, let's go from there. >>Yeah, it was before my time. I'm, Chad has been there for a long time. Most of the ride, but uh, yeah, it's been several years and it's been, uh, you know, starting out with SCM, moving into CEI and then, you know, adopted sustainer journey that you hear about even in the keynote today. That's pretty much how we charted our course. Okay. >>So Sean, you've been there since the beginning of a, uh, to get lab usage? Pretty much it, it showed up a couple months before I got there. But, uh, going back to your early mid 22, yeah, 2015, uh, we had kind of a more of a pilot group of engineers that were, were starting out, you know, to get us down this path to where we wanted to go and they needed a new tool, something that worked better than what we currently had at an M and a, they settled on, on get lab because it provided, you know, one being open source was a huge selling point for us. Um, and it was just ever-growing. So it allowed our developers to really get going and get going much faster. Okay, great. And in the keynote, okay, Kyle, they were talking about how it's not just about the dev, the second the ops, but really not allowing everybody into the same tooling, even marketing and finance. What's kind of the breadth of the organization is it is mostly devs that dev and ops does security, you know, who, who's involved in using this tooling. >>It's everybody. We're a, we're figuring out our, you know, everyone's kinda got their own spin on things. So we're in that, um, classic position where I think we have the tooling sprawl that everyone talks about and we're, we're constantly evaluating, you know, how does Gilad fit into that picture? What do we bolt on? You know, we have the luxury of being able to integrate with other things as well. But then if certainly if we can get an economy of scale where we can just use get lab, it's to provide that seamless interface. That's something we always look to do too. All right. >>So Sean, my understanding is a NM is also using Coubernetties and that's something that you're involved in. So very money you bring us in people, you know, sometimes get misconstrued as to the scope and the purpose of, of Kubernetes. We've been at the cube con cloud date of con for a number of years, but uh, why don't you set the stage for us and kind of walk us through the, the what and the why of Kubernetes? Yeah. For us at least being able to leverage something like Kubernetes, which when you really back out and you know, do the 10,000 foot view, it's container management and being able to go into a more modern architecture. We're leveraging containers for pretty much whatever we can, or at least what makes sense. Um, and that's kind of how we started down the path with get lab moving into Kubernetes. You know, we were, we were trying to figure out like, where do we want to go so, you know, let's not just push the boat out a little, let's drop, kick the boat off the end of the pier and see where we end up. >>So we started working down that path of deploying get lab into Kubernetes cause it allowed us to easily expand and make the application highly available. So even if some easies go down in AWS, which knock on wood never happens. Uh, we're still good to go. Our users are, wouldn't even notice. Okay. Um, so you mentioned AWS. Is that your primary cloud, your only cloud? What, what is your cloud situation? Yeah, that's, that's a Northwestern mutual is public cloud. Okay, great. And speak a little bit to, you know, Amazon does have plenty of its own tooling. Uh, maybe a little bit about how get lab and, how those fit together for you. Um, well, I mean, we use get lab CIS specifically to be able to provision different services in one, not that we need as long as they fit near within our security requirements. And, you know, everything we do, we get vetted out through our internal processes, but it's really allowed our developers to move forward so much faster. >>You know, it's kind of gone are the days of, let me fill out a request for, you know, X, Y, Z and, you know, wait two as it goes through somebody's work queue and they eventually get around to it. Um, allowing our developers to just, you know, do their commits, get their, you know, peer review and just deploy and provision right away, allows us to get our applications to market just so much faster than even a few years ago. Alright. So Kyle, the two of you are presenting here at the show, uh, you know, we, we love, we heard GitLab talking on stages. You know, customers don't just use it, they commit, they add feedback in and they speak at the show. So maybe speak a little bit of, uh, you know, NMS, you know, involvement as to uh, you know, are you committing code and what, what are you speaking about? >>So we're here to speak about our journey on Kubernetes. I'm trans covering the application side and I'm going to talk about our, our dabble in Kubernetes CII. So we're, we're really looking to, um, we're looking for efficiencies I guess in, in density. That's a primary driver behind trying to explore the trail. But also, um, one of the things I'll talk about in the talk is, is boosting our security posture using Kubernetes. So a lot of times people are using API keys and they're getting stale and not being rotated. Uh, we can do some neat things with Kubernetes and it's native. I am offerings to boost our security posture by moving towards role based access and getting those credentials that are rotating and providing us, uh, you know, non stale sort of authentication credentials, things like that. >>Sean, yeah, pretty much covers it. Uh, uh, and beyond with the CIA, you know, being able to run and get lab itself within Qube and having the different components broken out and we're alive. It's, it, it's enabling us to limit any kind of attack plane that could exist. You know, it's, you have to get through a lot to even get to it. So it's really just been a huge, a huge plus for us. OK. I, I'd love to hear both. Both of you have been to these events a number of times. You're speaking to event. What, what, what's the value of coming to get loud commit? I mean, for me it's a, a huge networking thing and being able to relay our experiences that we've gone through to other people that are out in the community. I mean, I know lots of, you know, everyone wants to see, you know, what can you do in Kubernetes and like, here's some of the things that we've done. >>Here's some of the things that you know, works that didn't work. You know, we would recommend you going this kind of route if we were to start it over again. And beyond that, you know, meeting people from all over the world, like, uh, we were talking with some, uh, some guy, gentleman Nico from white duck who is from Germany. It's not something you get to do, you know, face to face all the time. Alright. Sean, can you share with our audience any of those? You know, if we could do it over again, we'd change something. Is it an organizational thing or technical piece or until don't don't use EFS for getting repo data. It will not end well for you can take away. All right. Kyle, how about you? You've been to a number of these shows, uh, you know, the networking, the piece or you know, what else, what, what, what, what for you personally and for NM, uh, you know, brings you back. >>Yeah. Networking is a big thing. I think it's also getting feedback on, you know, what we're doing. Does it make sense? Just like get lab is throwing things out there early, trying to tighten up that contribution loop. We want to get our ideas out there and then this is an opportunity for people to ask questions about our presentation. If maybe we're off in the wrong direction, maybe we can get that steered back on course. Um, you know, we're just really here to get the feedback. Yeah. I always love talking to people in the financial industry and you talk about open source, you know, if, if you went back, you know, five years ago, you'd probably get a little bit of sideways looks as to wait, you know, you're doing what, um, are we past that? Do do you feel are most people, uh, you know, really understanding where we are with, with cloud and open source in general that it, you know, it makes perfect sense for a financial institution to be part of it. >>I'd say at NM we, we've finally gotten past that curve and now we're, we're trying to, you know, make it even easier for our internal developers to easier participate in open source, you know, their internal products and contribute more to the community. Uh, we've completely done an about face from, you know, probably 15 years ago where it was open source. You wanted to, what to, yeah, let's go. How can we make things better? It's, it's all about, you know, our, our customers. So we want to make sure we create the best product and experience for them. That's awesome. Yeah, there's still some barriers there. I mean, it's all about managing risk, right? So you have to do things diligently and make sure that your bases are covered. And so it's not like it can be a free for all. We have to do our due diligence, but we, you know, we love to contribute. And we love to get up without their there as we can. All right. Well, Kyle and Sean, thank you so much for sharing with our audience. Best of luck with your presentations and, uh, have a great time at the show. Thank you. All right. Uh, thank you to, to NM for joining us. I'm Stu Miniman and thank you for watching the cube.

>>LA from Las Vegas. It's the cube covering AWS reinvent 2019 brought to you by Amazon web services and they don't play along with its ecosystem partners. >>Well, welcome back live in Las Vegas. We're here on the cube. Continue our coverage here of day two of AWS. Raven 2019 in fact, it took me to the last interview on the second day to be paired up with my guy. Still many minutes to what happened is this is the first interview we've done this way. >>John, you know, I've not been out playing golf >>well and I wouldn't mind if I was, it'd be all right Brandon. You know Brandon, you play golf. Brandon Young? I do. I play college golf so, and I have a, you can't see them, but I have some trousers that might match there and prove that I have done a few times. Paint shirt would be, he would very proud granted to VP of alliances to get lab. And where'd you play college golf by the way. I split some time in Oklahoma and down at rice down in Houston. Oh you, yes. Wow. Be a sooner. How back that has some pretty good golfers there. They do. Um, let's first off, let's talk about, um, VP of alliances sure. And get like what do you do? So what does that encompass? What's that all about? Covers a bunch of pieces. Uh, covers all of the big key partnerships with us. >>So that's going to be obviously Amazon, other big cloud providers, a lot of strategic technology partnerships and then all your system integrators, man service providers, resellers, um, and then functionally anything else that comes in. So also we're bringing the open source space. So lead a lot of our open source engagement, uh, uh, in as well. What kind of customer base we're talking about here? I mean for, for you guys, sorry, cause it's pretty significant. It's, um, so in the space we've got roughly to two to 3 million users that use get lab and count on it for building, deploying and securing their code. Uh, and somewhere between a hundred thousand and 200,000 companies, uh, that get loud is, uh, is being used. Now. >>Brennan, you're not dealing with get lab. You're also on the board for the Linux foundation. And you know, we're, we're getting close to 2020. So I even, I saw some people looking back at where open source has come in the last decade. And you know, get, of course is one of the predominant drivers the proliferation of opensource. So maybe tell us a little bit about, you know, what your customers come to. Uh, w you know, why, why get lab is so critical to what, >>sure. Yeah. Because if we look at history, it kind of makes naturally in get lab we're getting, so that was where our, our base was, uh, when we started in 2012, 2013. Um, as it's evolved, so in get continues to be that core piece you need. So whether you're doing get ops infrastructure is code application development, you've got to have state, you've got to store your issues, you've got to take care of that. That's just one Oh one in software development or infrastructure management. Um, so that's got to where we started. And then, you know, a couple of years later, we picked up and did a bunch of stuff in the CIC space. Initially we had them separate, uh, and customers kept saying, God, these might work well together and to the Linux world has always been single tool, very sharp, very narrow. Uh, so we held off on that for a long time. >>Um, finally said, Oh, we're going to give it a go, shift them together. And that's kind of led to where we are now, which is we think of, you know, get lab as a single tool for the entire dev ops life cycle. And that makes it easy for someone to get started to build it, secure it, ship it, all of that from idea to production in the shortest possible time. And so that's kind of how it evolved. And yeah, we've grown up with the open source world ever since. And um, it's an awesome place. All right, so you've got the alliances and we're here at the biggest cloud show there. So help us connect the dots. Get lab AWS. Yeah. Perfect. So if we kind of look back and we go, ah, look at the keynote, right? So Andy talked a whole bunch, front keynote, Goldman Sachs, big talk with Verizon, a lot around the services, new stuff with arm new chips, new, um, a lot of new databases. >>Um, all of that rolled out. Those are services as Amazon looked at it. Our goal, our job is to get those customers onto the Amazon services. We're the tool that helps them develop and deploy those applications. Goldman, huge customer, Verizon, huge customer. So the majority of the keynotes you'd get lab to get to Amazon. So we're that tool that does the application security deployment and um, you know, lets those devs really take advantage of the great services that Amazon delivers. You know, you talk about security is it, is it, um, and obviously it's increased in terms of its importance. We recognize we've, we've seen how vulnerable apps can be and, and these invasion points, is that being reflected in budgets? Are we seeing that? Are people making these kinds of investments or is there still some lip service being paid to it and maybe they need a little more money where their mouth is. >>There's not a shortage of dollars, so I'll be be real straight forward. That is for us, the big growth area is uh, application security in a pipeline. The notion of shift left, um, and it's been, it's actually one of the easier conversations because the CSOs really want to make sure that every piece of code is tested, be it static code, dynamic code, license scanning, all the above. Um, the way they've had to do that and traditionally done it is at the end of a pipeline and they make every dev on happy because they throw it all the way back to the front with the dev. And then I was like, Oh, thank you so much. I did that two weeks ago and now I have to go, why didn't we do it on the front side instead of the back side? You kill the most important thing, which is cycle time, right? >>Cycle time is time from idea to Chimp. So by shifting it left, there's plenty of money and the CSOs love it because just want you to spend it. It's where they spend it. Right. And so now they get all the code tested. The devs love it because they get feedback instead of the CSO saying this is broken. The two old, the second they hit command a couple minutes later, Oh it's broken. They go fix it, make another commit. They're going to move way faster much. Um, so that's really what we get at and yeah, but no short in dollars, the security still the windows, the spend happens, you're saying right on the front side instead of the back shop and try and get full coverage. So a lot of times otherwise if you're trying to do security after someone's developed it, you're not sure. Like are you getting every code, all a piece of code that was developed? Are you getting just a lot of it as you talked about web apps, a lot of it is the focus. Oh the web apps. Cause that's the front end. But intrusion, once it passed the front end, it's a soft interior. You've got to do every single piece of code has to be tested. >>Yeah. It's Brandon. So you know what I've heard, especially from, I mean, you know, my peers in the security industry, you know, security needs to be considered the entire way. Security is everyone's job chair's responsibility. I need to think about it. But the other thing that really has changed for people is you talk about CIC. D I need to move fast. Well hold on. The security team's got to review everything. One of the core principles of dev ops is you want to bake it in the process, you need to get them involved. And then there's DevSecOps which pulls all of these pieces together. So tell, tell us how those trends are going and that, you know, speed and security actually go together not opposed. >>Oh yeah. And because, and it's how you measure the, the speed. Cause I think sometimes the question is all back to what is it from it. It's, it's a life cycle. And if that's what you're measuring, being able to do the security earlier is so much faster because you're not having to iterate, um, later. But, um, it's continues to increase. Devs are getting more and more say that's not gonna change anytime soon. Um, empowering those devs to own the security, uh, empowering those devs through the pipeline to be able to deploy into Lambda, into far gate. They love that. And if you could give that and give the security, the visibility, the dashboarding, the understanding of what just went in, um, what code they're using, what the licenses are, that visibility is huge and that allows you to move fast cause it's trust. >>I mean actually, uh, I love the researchers at Dora, you know, do the annual survey, uh, on dev ops and they said, actually if you are a company that tends to deploy less often, it tends to take you much longer to recover and you're not geared to be able to do it. Uh, you know, my background networking and you think about, you know, security is one of those things like, well wait, I want to keep my things stable and not changing for a while, but that means you're less and less secure cause I need to be on the latest patch. I need to be able to update things there. So, uh, you know, CIC D I think leads to should lead to greater security. Do you have some stats around that for your customer as to, you know, how they measure that? >>We have some pretty good velocity. Um, so Goldman went with us and this is real public is they, they started with us and went from about a two week release cycle down to tens, 20 a hundred times a day. Um, and that, I mean that's a company that does a great job in dev, um, but can also be like smaller companies like wag labs that we talked with earlier and they same kind of thing. They went often from a week down to they were doing, they typically do 20 to 30 deployments a day. And again, it just makes you break the pieces smaller, less likely that you're going to introduce dependencies that break something and all that process builds on each other as the door is stuff. If you haven't read, you've read it obviously, but if the users haven't great place to get started and understand how this works. >>Has testing changed or is testing changing in terms of when you establish the criteria, what you're looking for in terms of I guess you have a lot of new capabilities so you've got to change, I assumed your criteria up front do have a little proper, a little more accurate evaluation is that environment it's changed somewhat. I mean testing in application testing it is pretty specific to every comfy. So tools continue to get better. Um, ways of review have gotten a lot better. So, uh, there's now a lot of capabilities that at the point that you're going to go into deployment, one of the harder pieces is doing, um, your user acceptance testing is like, God, am I going to see the same thing that a user will? Right. And a lot of these have gotten to a point like we have a one click at the end of the deploy, a review app. >>Anyone in the company can look at exactly rebuild everything you're going to bought to deploy. So there's some tools that make it faster. Um, but in terms of what your load balancing in terms of your user acceptance testing, a lot of those principles continue to be pretty girl. Uh, one of the big things we heard from Andy Jassy is talking about transformation and he said you can't just do it incrementally and you need, you know, clear leadership and commitment. We want to hear how, you know, you're hearing about this from your customers. How is get live helping customers along those transformation journeys. Sure. Um, so totally agree that, I mean, it's a cultural piece, uh, without question. I think there's a couple of places, there's the obviously the tool piece and just getting everyone on the same page. And we, we all know this intuitively is we've seen what w when you go from a word doc to a Google doc and everyone can edit the same time, that's transformation goes, you know what everyone's working on, uh, and you're not duplicating effort. >>And that, that's really in many ways that's what get lab is doing is just helping the front end. I, you know, product manager know exactly what's going on in the infrastructure side and you communicate in a similar language. Um, the other piece of that we are working a lot in is because, um, get lamb operates an extremely open culture. So we publish how we run the company in a handbook that's 2,500 pages. We're always updating it. So, uh, we do reviews every time we release, we release every single month for the last 120 months in a row. We go through, here's what the release is going to be. It's on YouTube. Everyone can see it when things go wrong, we publish it. So we have an outage, we will, we have live broadcast, how we get back out from an outage and we publish all of it for someone to understand. >>And so one of the other things, there's a lot of our customers are getting started on that journey. There's one thing for a deck that says, here's what you do for your transformation for your company. That's another thing when you can literally jump in on Monday morning under the get lab call and watch, get lab go through a post-mortem of when we had a small outage. Oh that's what a no blame looks like. Okay, now I understand that, Hey, what, what didn't we release that we could have done better? And those are processes that you can have it on a piece of paper, but it's a different thing when you can walk through that with the company. And it's even better when you're watching the company that's doing the same product, the same tool that you're using. So I mean that's a, that's a cultural decision. >>Yes. I mean it's gotta be right. Yeah. I love the no blame. Right. Cause you're saying instead of finger pointing, great or castigating, you know, we're, we're going to learn from this. And how do you think, what impact does that have on a customer when they see you in real time solving your problems? They know that. They know that if they have a question for us, that we both take it seriously and that we're going to do it in a way that they know when it's going to be resolved. And that doesn't mean that we always deliver at the same time that a customer asks. But that level of transparency breeds both trust. And it also helps a customer quantify what do they want, helps us huge amount of communication because they know what we're prioritizing and they understand why. And that isn't something that is typical to come, but it's always typically very hard unless you're broadcast everything like we do to know, well, why are they making that decision? >>Um, and so that's one of the real big reasons that our customers work with us. That's where we get 10,000 plus additional contributors to get lab as an open source project. And that helps massively of course. So the velocity is because there's no difference between a get labber or the thousand get lappers in 64 countries or any one of the 10,000 contributors or our biggest competitors that regularly make contributions to, uh, our, um, our landscape. So we have a landscape that's, how does dev ops work? Who does stuff well? Hey, have no shame if they delivered something better. I want to know that I make that commit. We will share it with the world that we are not good at that and you are better at it and you know what? We'll get better. Right. It's a winning formula. It's good. It's been working really well. I appreciate the time brand. A good saying. You can love the slacks. Wish we could show them of course. But next time, thanks for having us. All right. You're watching Carvery Cherif AWS reinvent 2019 on the queue.

>> Announcer: From New York, it's theCUBE covering Escape/19. (techno music) >> Hey welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of the first inaugural, Multi-Cloud Conference in New York City. It's called Escape/2019. I'm here with Brendan O'Leary, Senior Solutions Architect with GitLab. Is that right, Senior Solutions Architect? >> Brendan: Close enough, Manager, you know. >> Manager, architect, you work at GitLab, you're technical, so we'll have a good chat here. Welcome to theCUBE, good to see you. >> Thanks for having me. >> First Multi-Cloud Conference, really we love to go to the inaugural anything. >> Sure. >> Just in case it's not around next year, we can say we were here. It looks like it's got some legs, some interesting conversations I see in the hallways. You know, you guys are a big part of this revolution. GitLab, your company, you're providing opensource repositories, free, to get people to get started, as well you got paid stuff, as well. Hot area. GitHub was acquired by Microsoft. Some say Microsoft's not going to meddle with that. We'll see, but still, a super-important part of the community that you guys are involved in. >> It's true. We're seeing this multi-cloud revolution, if you want to call it that, with a lot of our customers, right? It's no longer that you pick one cloud, and that's where everything's going to run. You're going to have acquisitions. You're going to have the desire to negotiate and have a negotiating position with your vendors. You're going to want to use functionality that's maybe only in one of the clouds. And so we're really seeing this multi-cloud become more of a norm. And that's why we think it's critical to have a DevOps platform that's independent from that, so that you can deploy everywhere. >> So what's the lock-in spec? I mean, basically the thesis is that if you want to negotiating leverage, you want to have multi-cloud. I get the whole, "there's multiple clouds," because, upgrade to Office 365, you got Azure, basically. So, multi-vendor, multi-cloud, totally buy it. But what's the lock-in spec that's getting people agitated, or thinking about multi-cloud? >> Yeah, I think it's interesting, because there's both, of course, the technical side. Like I said, you might have functionality that you want to run that's only available on one cloud. But, the finance folks, and everyone else gets concerned about, "Hey, are we going to get locked into some vendor, "where we don't have any ability to negotiate?" And so I think that is part of it, and I read, as part of prepping for my talk here, a 2019 state-of-cloud report that said 84% of enterprises, today, are using more than one cloud. So I think that's indicative of that desire to not-- You may have a primary cloud where you deploy things, but you're going to use more than one. >> I think that's a fair reality. I mean, probably more, I mean, if you count all these, how they're bundling apps in there. What's your talk going to be about? Is it today or tomorrow? >> So, I'm talking tomorrow, and I'm talking about a framework for making decisions about multi-cloud. 'Cause again, I think that a lot of the times we get bogged down in the technology, and picking features over what we're really looking for, which is the business value of being able to have a single view, a single application, a single platform for your developers to be able to deploy, kind of no matter where it's going to end up, in the end, right? We don't want the developer having to think about that, necessarily, when they're building the application. We want to deliver value to our customers, right? And so we want them to be doing that differentiated work. >> Me and Armon were talking earlier, HashiCorp, CTO of HashiCorp, and he was talking about workflows, and I was talking about, okay, workloads. So, if you just take those two concepts, workflows and workloads, and just strip out any other technical conversation, what's the framework? Because, these are real issues. Those are the--that's the continuity issue for the business, not the tech. So, fill in the blanks around that. How does that--how do I get multi-cloud out of making sure my workflows aren't disrupted, and my workloads are kicking ass and doing their job? >> Yeah, I would say that that's a great question, and we love HashiCorp and what they've done for our space, and for multi-cloud, in general. They're a great partner for us. But I think the key is, the workflow you generally want to be the same, no matter where you're deploying, right? You want to have confidence that the code your building is secure, it's going to work, it's been tested, and, no matter where it deploys in the end, you want to have that same kind of workflow for your developers. But you also want to have workload portability, right? So, when you're talking about the ability to have a negotiating position, or the ability to run in multiple clouds, the same application, you know, have disaster recovery, have not just this monolith--mono-cloud environment, you have to have workload portability, as well. >> Well, Brendan, I'm not sure if they're taping your interview. Hope they are. If they are, then we'll get those copies in our video on cloud. But, you've got a framework for multi-cloud, and with the reality that everyone wants, or has either inherited, or has, or will want a multi-vendor environment, what is that framework for negotiating, or setting up the foundation? Because the theme here, my interviews here, and the hallway conversations, two things: One is foundational discussions around multi-cloud, I mean, early, thought leaders laying out, here's some lines to think about. And then, two, data. So, two, interesting, common threads, here: foundational thinking and data. >> I think that foundational thinking's important, because I think that's really what my framework gets to is, hey, we want to look at not just the technology, and not those answers. We want to look at, what are the business metrics that we're driving towards, right? 'Cause, in the end, again, that's what we want to be driving in software is our businesses. And, so, what are the business metrics that we're going to use, and how can we make it efficient? How can we make it governed? And how can we make it visible across those clouds? I think those are the three things to be focused on. >> And is there a certain way? So is it more, situational, based upon the environment, because maybe there's weights of certain variables over others? >> I think so. I think, depending on your environment, right? You maybe in a more highly regulated environment where governance is the number one, it's the king. But I think everyone has those governance concerns, right? None of us want to wake up to a security call that we should have known about, right? >> How's things going on in your world? GitLab, you guys are doing great. Good to see you guys got a big round of funding, recently. >> Going great. >> GitHub just sold for billions of dollars. That's a nice comp. >> Yeah, no, I say it's nice when someone sells a house in your neighborhood for a lot of money, right? But, yeah, no, what we see from that is the industry moving toward this single tool for your DevOps lifecycle, for your DevOps tool chain, and your DevOps lifecycle. We want to be able to have one way that developers deploy code, and we're seeing that kind of consolidation in the market. And we've had great success with that, so far. Our stated pubic desire is to go public next year. And we're on track for that, right now. So, we're looking forward to it. >> You know what's interesting and I love is the subtext to all this plot, which is, there's a human equation in all this, right? The human capital, human resource, the people-side of the equation, the cultural shifts in these companies, your customers, now. Any observational commentary that you can share around how DevOps has kind of gone mainstream? Any cultural shifts around people and their behaviors and their affinity towards certain things? >> Yeah, it's an interesting question. I saw an article yesterday about a CIO who was being promoted to CEO, as the current CEO stepped down, and how that was kind of a novel thing. But the article was actually talking about how we're going to see more of that, right? Businesses, eight years ago, Marc Andreesen said that software is eating the world. Well, I think software has eaten the world, and we're seeing that in our businesses, as every company becomes a software company. >> And open source, JJ would argue at OSS Capital, that there's new business models emerging, as well. And new opportunities, as well, for everyone involved. Open source software, cloud computing, multi-cloud, it's a great wave. >> It is a big wave, and, you know, GitLab's based on an open-source project, right? And so, just, we were founded only back in 2014, as a company, but we've come to find a business model that works, open-core, and we think there's a lot of opportunity in the market for folks to follow, and open source to have an even bigger impact than it's already had on the market. >> Final question for you, Brendan. What do you think about this conference, some of the hallway conversations, what's the vibe? For the folks that aren't here, what's it like? >> Oh, I mean, I think it's great. I think there's been a lot of great discussions, again, about very foundational things, about, hey, how do we look at this as a business leaders? But, then, I've also had great discussions about the technology and about Kubernetes, about those kinds of things that really enable us to have those kinds of conversations. >> Some good relationships being developed here. People know each other, too. >> Exactly, yeah, people I haven't seen in a long time, or people that I work with that I haven't seen 'cause we're all remote. >> It's great to see it in New York, too. >> Yeah, I love it in New York. So, I'm from DC, so it's a quick train ride up, but I love coming up, though. >> Not like us in California, big plane ride. Brendan, thank you so much for coming on theCUBE. Appreciate it. >> Yeah, great, thank you very much for having me. >> I'm John Furrier, here at the first, inaugural conference, Escape/19, back with more of that after this short break. (techno music)

>> Announcer: From New York, it's theCUBE covering Escape/19. (techno music) >> Hey welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of the first inaugural, Multi-Cloud Conference in New York City. It's called Escape/2019. I'm here with Brendan O'Leary, Senior Solutions Architect with GitLab. Is that right, Senior Solutions Architect? >> Brendan: Close enough, Manager, you know. >> Manager, architect, you work at GitLab, you're technical, so we'll have a good chat here. Welcome to theCUBE, good to see you. >> Thanks for having me. >> First Multi-Cloud Conference, really we love to go to the inaugural anything. >> Sure. >> Just in case it's not around next year, we can say we were here. It looks like it's got some legs, some interesting conversations I see in the hallways. You know, you guys are a big part of this revolution. GitLab, your company, you're providing opensource repositories, free, to get people to get started, as well you got paid stuff, as well. Hot area. GitHub was acquired by Microsoft. Some say Microsoft's not going to meddle with that. We'll see, but still, a super-important part of the community that you guys are involved in. >> It's true. We're seeing this multi-cloud revolution, if you want to call it that, with a lot of our customers, right? It's no longer that you pick one cloud, and that's where everything's going to run. You're going to have acquisitions. You're going to have the desire to negotiate and have a negotiating position with your vendors. You're going to want to use functionality that's maybe only in one of the clouds. And so we're really seeing this multi-cloud become more of a norm. And that's why we think it's critical to have a DevOps platform that's independent from that, so that you can deploy everywhere. >> So what's the lock-in spec? I mean, basically the thesis is that if you want to negotiating leverage, you want to have multi-cloud. I get the whole, "there's multiple clouds," because, upgrade to Office 365, you got Azure, basically. So, multi-vendor, multi-cloud, totally buy it. But what's the lock-in spec that's getting people agitated, or thinking about multi-cloud? >> Yeah, I think it's interesting, because there's both, of course, the technical side. Like I said, you might have functionality that you want to run that's only available on one cloud. But, the finance folks, and everyone else gets concerned about, "Hey, are we going to get locked into some vendor, "where we don't have any ability to negotiate?" And so I think that is part of it, and I read, as part of prepping for my talk here, a 2019 state-of-cloud report that said 84% of enterprises, today, are using more than one cloud. So I think that's indicative of that desire to not-- You may have a primary cloud where you deploy things, but you're going to use more than one. >> I think that's a fair reality. I mean, probably more, I mean, if you count all these, how they're bundling apps in there. What's your talk going to be about? Is it today or tomorrow? >> So, I'm talking tomorrow, and I'm talking about a framework for making decisions about multi-cloud. 'Cause again, I think that a lot of the times we get bogged down in the technology, and picking features over what we're really looking for, which is the business value of being able to have a single view, a single application, a single platform for your developers to be able to deploy, kind of no matter where it's going to end up, in the end, right? We don't want the developer having to think about that, necessarily, when they're building the application. We want to deliver value to our customers, right? And so we want them to be doing that differentiated work. >> Me and Armon were talking earlier, HashiCorp, CTO of HashiCorp, and he was talking about workflows, and I was talking about, okay, workloads. So, if you just take those two concepts, workflows and workloads, and just strip out any other technical conversation, what's the framework? Because, these are real issues. Those are the--that's the continuity issue for the business, not the tech. So, fill in the blanks around that. How does that--how do I get multi-cloud out of making sure my workflows aren't disrupted, and my workloads are kicking ass and doing their job? >> Yeah, I would say that that's a great question, and we love HashiCorp and what they've done for our space, and for multi-cloud, in general. They're a great partner for us. But I think the key is, the workflow you generally want to be the same, no matter where you're deploying, right? You want to have confidence that the code your building is secure, it's going to work, it's been tested, and, no matter where it deploys in the end, you want to have that same kind of workflow for your developers. But you also want to have workload portability, right? So, when you're talking about the ability to have a negotiating position, or the ability to run in multiple clouds, the same application, you know, have disaster recovery, have not just this monolith--mono-cloud environment, you have to have workload portability, as well. >> Well, Brendan, I'm not sure if they're taping your interview. Hope they are. If they are, then we'll get those copies in our video on cloud. But, you've got a framework for multi-cloud, and with the reality that everyone wants, or has either inherited, or has, or will want a multi-vendor environment, what is that framework for negotiating, or setting up the foundation? Because the theme here, my interviews here, and the hallway conversations, two things: One is foundational discussions around multi-cloud, I mean, early, thought leaders laying out, here's some lines to think about. And then, two, data. So, two, interesting, common threads, here: foundational thinking and data. >> I think that foundational thinking's important, because I think that's really what my framework gets to is, hey, we want to look at not just the technology, and not those answers. We want to look at, what are the business metrics that we're driving towards, right? 'Cause, in the end, again, that's what we want to be driving in software is our businesses. And, so, what are the business metrics that we're going to use, and how can we make it efficient? How can we make it governed? And how can we make it visible across those clouds? I think those are the three things to be focused on. >> And is there a certain way? So is it more, situational, based upon the environment, because maybe there's weights of certain variables over others? >> I think so. I think, depending on your environment, right? You maybe in a more highly regulated environment where governance is the number one, it's the king. But I think everyone has those governance concerns, right? None of us want to wake up to a security call that we should have known about, right? >> How's things going on in your world? GitLab, you guys are doing great. Good to see you guys got a big round of funding, recently. >> Going great. >> GitHub just sold for billions of dollars. That's a nice comp. >> Yeah, no, I say it's nice when someone sells a house in your neighborhood for a lot of money, right? But, yeah, no, what we see from that is the industry moving toward this single tool for your DevOps lifecycle, for your DevOps tool chain, and your DevOps lifecycle. We want to be able to have one way that developers deploy code, and we're seeing that kind of consolidation in the market. And we've had great success with that, so far. Our stated pubic desire is to go public next year. And we're on track for that, right now. So, we're looking forward to it. >> You know what's interesting and I love is the subtext to all this plot, which is, there's a human equation in all this, right? The human capital, human resource, the people-side of the equation, the cultural shifts in these companies, your customers, now. Any observational commentary that you can share around how DevOps has kind of gone mainstream? Any cultural shifts around people and their behaviors and their affinity towards certain things? >> Yeah, it's an interesting question. I saw an article yesterday about a CIO who was being promoted to CEO, as the current CEO stepped down, and how that was kind of a novel thing. But the article was actually talking about how we're going to see more of that, right? Businesses, eight years ago, Marc Andreesen said that software is eating the world. Well, I think software has eaten the world, and we're seeing that in our businesses, as every company becomes a software company. >> And open source, JJ would argue at OSS Capital, that there's new business models emerging, as well. And new opportunities, as well, for everyone involved. Open source software, cloud computing, multi-cloud, it's a great wave. >> It is a big wave, and, you know, GitLab's based on an open-source project, right? And so, just, we were founded only back in 2014, as a company, but we've come to find a business model that works, open-core, and we think there's a lot of opportunity in the market for folks to follow, and open source to have an even bigger impact than it's already had on the market. >> Final question for you, Brendan. What do you think about this conference, some of the hallway conversations, what's the vibe? For the folks that aren't here, what's it like? >> Oh, I mean, I think it's great. I think there's been a lot of great discussions, again, about very foundational things, about, hey, how do we look at this as a business leaders? But, then, I've also had great discussions about the technology and about Kubernetes, about those kinds of things that really enable us to have those kinds of conversations. >> Some good relationships being developed here. People know each other, too. >> Exactly, yeah, people I haven't seen in a long time, or people that I work with that I haven't seen 'cause we're all remote. >> It's great to see it in New York, too. >> Yeah, I love it in New York. So, I'm from DC, so it's a quick train ride up, but I love coming up, though. >> Not like us in California, big plane ride. Brendan, thank you so much for coming on theCUBE. Appreciate it. >> Yeah, great, thank you very much for having me. >> I'm John Furrier, here at the first, inaugural conference, Escape/19, back with more of that after this short break. (techno music)

>> Live from Las Vegas. It's theCUBE covering AWS re:Invent 2018 brought to you by Amazon web services, Intel and their ecosystem partners. >> Good to have you here on theCUBE, as we continue our coverage at AWS re:Invent. We're at day three here in Las Vegas in the Sands Expo Hall D, and we got about a half hour. Come by and say hi to us if you would. I'm here with Rebecca Knight, John Walls, and two gentleman here to join us. One from GitLab, Brendan Jung, who is the vice president of alliances. Brendan, good to see you sir. >> Thank you for having us. >> And Alex Hale, platform engineering at Beacon Platform. >> Hello, Alex, how are you doing? >> Not bad, I'm surviving the whole experience. >> It's a test! >> Well, let's talk about the whole experience (mumbles) What have you picked up this week? >> I've picked up that AWS is going very much into this sort of enterprise space. We saw that theme last year, and I think this year it's even more so that they're really catering towards how enterprise and then big organizations are getting in. And I think that's been a big. You can see it in how they're doing their storage strategies, how they're doing their network strategies, and how they're just really targeting towards security, and compliance, and governance. And I think that's a big theme that's from last year to this year, and I think it's going to continue on. >> Yeah, they've been waving a big flag for sure telling the enterprise it's safe to come onboard the public cloud's open for ya. >> Yes. >> Oh yeah for sure. >> Brendan, if you would, you were telling a story that you worked at Google for quite some time. >> I was, yes. >> Worked on some fairly high profile projects >> there, and you've been >> Yes. at GitLab for five months now. Instant transition for ya? >> Five months, yes. >> What was behind that? >> So a couple of it is, I mean when we get down to it sometimes you're either a builder or a runner just in the way you're oriented. And I'm a builder, so the biggest thing was love building that from the ground up with Google. Amazing team they did amazing job. We got to do a lot of really fun things. Was looking for something kind of new, and I'd worked with GitLab since I ran the partner organization for a lot of the partners at Google. I had worked with them for a number of years and it's rare when you work regularly with the company that you get surprised. So the kind of the point that I was like, "Oh, I really need to look into this more deeply," is I've done detailed work with GitLab for years. And I was in a meeting with Sid, our CEO. And he kind of, "Hey, you know what we're up to." And I'm like, "Oh, of course I know what we're up to." Right, cuz that's you always answer that. I mean you don't answer the question, "No, I have no idea what you're up to." We met four weeks ago, of course I know what you're up to. And he's really humble. But simply like oh hey, you want to see me insert. Hey, this is what we're working on. Slides across the floors to report, and he's like, oh, in the CI space, under three years we went from no product to the very best of the business. Beat out Microsoft, and CloudBees, and all these. And I was like wait, I didn't know you were in the CI space. I shouldn't say this publicly, >> Alright it's alright. >> but I went like I didn't know that. >> It's okay. You got the job. >> No, I'm safe, but the ability that's just the speed that the company moves. Everyone says it, but when you can go that fast with that kind of quality, I was like I got to dig deeper. And so we just kind of went down that path, and it's been quite an adventure. >> Good. >> Obviously, Microsoft buying GitHub has made for a whole lot of discussions in a whole lot of different ways for us. And competition's good, so it's been a lot of fun. >> Well, we definitely want to talk about the GitLab and Beacon Platform partnership, but I want to first ask you, Alex. Tell our viewers a little bit more about the Beacon Platform. >> So Beacon Platform is a company that came out of the financial services from the large banks; the Goldman Sachs, the J.P. Morgans, the Bank of Americas. And in those places, internally they have to have this quite open source like culture where there is people contributing in the same codebase, there's a lifecycle of how things are done, and it's rapid moving. And people don't associate them with large banks, but there is these products out there. In fact, some of the Goldman Sachs partners refer to those as the golden source, so they secret source. And if large banks can do it, why can't someone else. So we've taken those experiences that people have done for years to build these communities, best practices, and prescriptions, and turn it into a product. So we've taken the same model of here is a set of financial tooling, and infrastructure, and toolboxes to make financial applications. And we've brought it to the smaller bunch; so your insurance companies, even your large banks, Komodo used firms, insurance people. They can take our platform, and then bring their own analytics, and then build financial applications that they want on top of it and whilst doing so be ensured that they're compliant with security. We've done the governance for you. We've done the security for you. All you have to do is put your good ideas to use and make applications. >> So give us some examples of the business problems that this platform solves. >> So typically in the financial space, the people that have the great ideas are pawns, and they're by nature mathematicians. They're not developers. They're not UX people. They're not UI designers. They're certainly not security people. And yet they are are the people that are driving the core business and the value. And so the question is how do we make them be productive? How do we make sure that their lives are easier? Which means that you give them an idea. You give them a lifecycle for software that they can start saying, "Ooh, I've got an idea. I'll hack it up." And when it's hacked, they can publish it. It comes out the other end, and all the reporting is underneath there. Their security is there. The compliance is there. All the authentication is there. And that idea is now being actualized in the matter of days, weeks rather than months and years. And that means that our customers can take these ideas that they've been working on or just conceiving and turn it into reality in a very short amount of time. And then be comfortable that whole platform itself remains secure, compliant, and all the same thing that Amazon is actually counting to us. >> You know it seems like if your focus, your core competence, was or is financial services. I mean you're starting at a very high level of demand client, right? >> Yes. >> And appropriately so, and so there are a lot of lessons that migrate to other businesses that I assume are quite attractive to them, >> Yes. >> because if you mention your client, BOA, if they've got comfort, I have comfort. Right, because how much of that do you see that the experiences that you've developed or that you have put them through translate in a very positive way to other sectors? >> We've found out some of our customers are starting off in the cloud, and they're making their cloud journey. They're financial companies that want to take the journey to the cloud, but don't really know how to. And so we as a company which has already running on the cloud, as a company we don't actually own a physical single server. We're all on the cloud, all in. And they, our customers, come to us to say, "How are you in the cloud? What do you do? "You have the experience. You've worked at these places. "How does that all work?" And so we give them a sort of in the same way that out platform does. Prescriptive advice on how things are going to be done. And our customers come along with us on the journey. And so we take the customers on their cloud journey whereas our customers are taking us on their needs, and bringing their needs, and what they need to us to say, "I want to build an application like this. "What more do I need to do? What do I have to do?" And so it's a very collaborative relationship doing our customers to say, "I can help you in the cloud space. "You can help us in the financial ideas space, "and together we can actually make applications." Whatever we build ourselves, becomes we can resell it to others whilst the customers intellectual property can stay with them. It's a really interesting collaboration of. >> Symbiotic in many respects, right? >> Yes. >> You're leaning on them. And what about the relationship between the two of you again in terms of. >> Sure yeah, so as much as Beacon is very financial services focused, we're a DevOps tool and end DevOps tool for anyone, right. So in many ways what Beacon is doing is taking what GitLab's done about builing that whole tool chain, 'cause there's really a tool chain crisis out there. If you start looking at what needs to be set up for a developer, they want to live in their IDE, do their development, and publish as he said. But you start looking at what that needs to be set up after that, you're talking often times on a company 12, 15 other steps to go through. And that was kind of our aha was there's an opportunity to treat that as one full application as a DevOps tool set across the entire board. Started down that journey really like three years ago, and that's kind of I think we kind of match up. The similar story; they wrap all the important financial data, all the other things that matter to a bank, right. And they're got to whole bunch of extra tooling, extra data, extra services. But at the core of it, they also leveraged GitLab both as a tool to develop their own product and also to offer it as a tool possibly to their own customers, right. So their other customers need to develop. They need a DevOps toolset, so we work back and forth a whole lot on this. They move so fast. It's been amazing, and so every time we sit down we're like wait, what if we did, okay cool let's iterate. And we can turn that around. We ship every month to our customers. You can run it anywhere you want. The majority of our customers, they love the fact that they can run anywhere. Which in fact while Beacon does runs on Amazon, their customer bases have to run on (mumbles), right? And while we're seeing that hybrid become more and more common which is great, that's the truth that's been there forever. That's the world that we've lived, they live everyday and have lived for a long time, and so it's kind of fun to come here and see that be like yes, oh yeah that does exist, and we're kind of like yeah that's existed for a long time. >> Everybody caught up. >> Right yeah, we're there and there's always going to be reasons for that on both directions. And so we work really well together on that side, and they push us hard. Right, so we're actually right on stage. We're sitting there in just this morning, he's like hey, you finally (mumbles). You know I've got all these merge requests that he wants in our product. (mumbles) opens, it's open. Everyone in the world, anyone that watches this, go put a merge request on GitLab. We're going to track it. You're going to know where it lands. You're going to know when it gets delivered. So and if you want to write the code, you can write it and it's in. So it's been actually a ton of fun. >> And have at it, right? >> Yes. >> Well if the relationship's working good to see. >> Yes. >> And you're five months in, and I'm sure the one year anniversary's right around the corner for you. I'll try to be able to wait. >> Be here before you'll know it right? >> Hell yeah. >> (mumbles) thanks for joining us. Good to have you here on theCUBE, and look forward to hearing about this continuous success down the road I'm sure. >> Thank you >> Thank you so much. >> (mumbles) having us. >> Thank you both. Back with more here on theCUBE. You're watching this live at AWS re:Invent Las Vegas. (techno music)

(chill electronic music) >> Hello everyone, welcome to theCUBE's presentation of the AWS Startups Showcase, AI and machine learning, the top startups building generative AI on AWS. This is the season three, episode one of the ongoing series covering the exciting startups from the AWS ecosystem, talk about AI and machine learning. Can't believe it's three years and season one. I'm your host, John Furrier. Got a great guest today, we're joined by Joseph Nelson, the co-founder and CEO of Roboflow, doing some cutting edge stuff around computer vision and really at the front end of this massive wave coming around, large language models, computer vision. The next gen AI is here, and it's just getting started. We haven't even scratched a service. Thanks for joining us today. >> Thanks for having me. >> So you got to love the large language model, foundation models, really educating the mainstream world. ChatGPT has got everyone in the frenzy. This is educating the world around this next gen AI capabilities, enterprise, image and video data, all a big part of it. I mean the edge of the network, Mobile World Conference is happening right now, this month, and it's just ending up, it's just continue to explode. Video is huge. So take us through the company, do a quick explanation of what you guys are doing, when you were founded. Talk about what the company's mission is, and what's your North Star, why do you exist? >> Yeah, Roboflow exists to really kind of make the world programmable. I like to say make the world be read and write access. And our North Star is enabling developers, predominantly, to build that future. If you look around, anything that you see will have software related to it, and can kind of be turned into software. The limiting reactant though, is how to enable computers and machines to understand things as well as people can. And in a lot of ways, computer vision is that missing element that enables anything that you see to become software. So in the virtue of, if software is eating the world, computer vision kind of makes the aperture infinitely wide. It's something that I kind of like, the way I like to frame it. And the capabilities are there, the open source models are there, the amount of data is there, the computer capabilities are only improving annually, but there's a pretty big dearth of tooling, and an early but promising sign of the explosion of use cases, models, and data sets that companies, developers, hobbyists alike will need to bring these capabilities to bear. So Roboflow is in the game of building the community around that capability, building the use cases that allow developers and enterprises to use computer vision, and providing the tooling for companies and developers to be able to add computer vision, create better data sets, and deploy to production, quickly, easily, safely, invaluably. >> You know, Joseph, the word in production is actually real now. You're seeing a lot more people doing in production activities. That's a real hot one and usually it's slower, but it's gone faster, and I think that's going to be more the same. And I think the parallel between what we're seeing on the large language models coming into computer vision, and as you mentioned, video's data, right? I mean we're doing video right now, we're transcribing it into a transcript, linking up to your linguistics, times and the timestamp, I mean everything's data and that really kind of feeds. So this connection between what we're seeing, the large language and computer vision are coming together kind of cousins, brothers. I mean, how would you compare, how would you explain to someone, because everyone's like on this wave of watching people bang out their homework assignments, and you know, write some hacks on code with some of the open AI technologies, there is a corollary directly related to to the vision side. Can you explain? >> Yeah, the rise of large language models are showing what's possible, especially with text, and I think increasingly will get multimodal as the images and video become ingested. Though there's kind of this still core missing element of basically like understanding. So the rise of large language models kind of create this new area of generative AI, and generative AI in the context of computer vision is a lot of, you know, creating video and image assets and content. There's also this whole surface area to understanding what's already created. Basically digitizing physical, real world things. I mean the Metaverse can't be built if we don't know how to mirror or create or identify the objects that we want to interact with in our everyday lives. And where computer vision comes to play in, especially what we've seen at Roboflow is, you know, a little over a hundred thousand developers now have built with our tools. That's to the tune of a hundred million labeled open source images, over 10,000 pre-trained models. And they've kind of showcased to us all of the ways that computer vision is impacting and bringing the world to life. And these are things that, you know, even before large language models and generative AI, you had pretty impressive capabilities, and when you add the two together, it actually unlocks these kind of new capabilities. So for example, you know, one of our users actually powers the broadcast feeds at Wimbledon. So here we're talking about video, we're streaming, we're doing things live, we've got folks that are cropping and making sure we look good, and audio/visual all plugged in correctly. When you broadcast Wimbledon, you'll notice that the camera controllers need to do things like track the ball, which is moving at extremely high speeds and zoom crop, pan tilt, as well as determine if the ball bounced in or out. The very controversial but critical key to a lot of tennis matches. And a lot of that has been historically done with the trained, but fallible human eye and computer vision is, you know, well suited for this task to say, how do we track, pan, tilt, zoom, and see, track the tennis ball in real time, run at 30 plus frames per second, and do it all on the edge. And those are capabilities that, you know, were kind of like science fiction, maybe even a decade ago, and certainly five years ago. Now the interesting thing, is that with the advent of of generative AI, you can start to do things like create your own training data sets, or kind of create logic around once you have this visual input. And teams at Tesla have actually been speaking about, of course the autopilot team's focused on doing vision tasks, but they've combined large language models to add reasoning and logic. So given that you see, let's say the tennis ball, what do you want to do? And being able to combine the capabilities of what LLM's represent, which is really a lot of basically, core human reasoning and logic, with computer vision for the inputs of what's possible, creates these new capabilities, let alone multimodality, which I'm sure we'll talk more about. >> Yeah, and it's really, I mean it's almost intoxicating. It's amazing that this is so capable because the cloud scales here, you got the edge developing, you can decouple compute power, and let Moore's law and all the new silicone and the processors and the GPUs do their thing, and you got open source booming. You're kind of getting at this next segment I wanted to get into, which is the, how people should be thinking about these advances of the computer vision. So this is now a next wave, it's here. I mean I'd love to have that for baseball because I'm always like, "Oh, it should have been a strike." I'm sure that's going to be coming soon, but what is the computer vision capable of doing today? I guess that's my first question. You hit some of it, unpack that a little bit. What does general AI mean in computer vision? What's the new thing? Because there are old technology's been around, proprietary, bolted onto hardware, but hardware advances at a different pace, but now you got new capabilities, generative AI for vision, what does that mean? >> Yeah, so computer vision, you know, at its core is basically enabling machines, computers, to understand, process, and act on visual data as effective or more effective than people can. Traditionally this has been, you know, task types like classification, which you know, identifying if a given image belongs in a certain category of goods on maybe a retail site, is the shoes or is it clothing? Or object detection, which is, you know, creating bounding boxes, which allows you to do things like count how many things are present, or maybe measure the speed of something, or trigger an alert when something becomes visible in frame that wasn't previously visible in frame, or instant segmentation where you're creating pixel wise segmentations for both instance and semantic segmentation, where you often see these kind of beautiful visuals of the polygon surrounding objects that you see. Then you have key point detection, which is where you see, you know, athletes, and each of their joints are kind of outlined is another more traditional type problem in signal processing and computer vision. With generative AI, you kind of get a whole new class of problem types that are opened up. So in a lot of ways I think about generative AI in computer vision as some of the, you know, problems that you aimed to tackle, might still be better suited for one of the previous task types we were discussing. Some of those problem types may be better suited for using a generative technique, and some are problem types that just previously wouldn't have been possible absent generative AI. And so if you make that kind of Venn diagram in your head, you can think about, okay, you know, visual question answering is a task type where if I give you an image and I say, you know, "How many people are in this image?" We could either build an object detection model that might count all those people, or maybe a visual question answering system would sufficiently answer this type of problem. Let alone generative AI being able to create new training data for old systems. And that's something that we've seen be an increasingly prominent use case for our users, as much as things that we advise our customers and the community writ large to take advantage of. So ultimately those are kind of the traditional task types. I can give you some insight, maybe, into how I think about what's possible today, or five years or ten years as you sort go back. >> Yes, definitely. Let's get into that vision. >> So I kind of think about the types of use cases in terms of what's possible. If you just imagine a very simple bell curve, your normal distribution, for the longest time, the types of things that are in the center of that bell curve are identifying objects that are very common or common objects in context. Microsoft published the COCO Dataset in 2014 of common objects and contexts, of hundreds of thousands of images of chairs, forks, food, person, these sorts of things. And you know, the challenge of the day had always been, how do you identify just those 80 objects? So if we think about the bell curve, that'd be maybe the like dead center of the curve, where there's a lot of those objects present, and it's a very common thing that needs to be identified. But it's a very, very, very small sliver of the distribution. Now if you go out to the way long tail, let's go like deep into the tail of this imagined visual normal distribution, you're going to have a problem like one of our customers, Rivian, in tandem with AWS, is tackling, to do visual quality assurance and manufacturing in production processes. Now only Rivian knows what a Rivian is supposed to look like. Only they know the imagery of what their goods that are going to be produced are. And then between those long tails of proprietary data of highly specific things that need to be understood, in the center of the curve, you have a whole kind of messy middle, type of problems I like to say. The way I think about computer vision advancing, is it's basically you have larger and larger and more capable models that eat from the center out, right? So if you have a model that, you know, understands the 80 classes in COCO, well, pretty soon you have advances like Clip, which was trained on 400 million image text pairs, and has a greater understanding of a wider array of objects than just 80 classes in context. And over time you'll get more and more of these larger models that kind of eat outwards from that center of the distribution. And so the question becomes for companies, when can you rely on maybe a model that just already exists? How do you use your data to get what may be capable off the shelf, so to speak, into something that is usable for you? Or, if you're in those long tails and you have proprietary data, how do you take advantage of the greatest asset you have, which is observed visual information that you want to put to work for your customers, and you're kind of living in the long tails, and you need to adapt state of the art for your capabilities. So my mental model for like how computer vision advances is you have that bell curve, and you have increasingly powerful models that eat outward. And multimodality has a role to play in that, larger models have a role to play in that, more compute, more data generally has a role to play in that. But it will be a messy and I think long condition. >> Well, the thing I want to get, first of all, it's great, great mental model, I appreciate that, 'cause I think that makes a lot of sense. The question is, it seems now more than ever, with the scale and compute that's available, that not only can you eat out to the middle in your example, but there's other models you can integrate with. In the past there was siloed, static, almost bespoke. Now you're looking at larger models eating into the bell curve, as you said, but also integrating in with other stuff. So this seems to be part of that interaction. How does, first of all, is that really happening? Is that true? And then two, what does that mean for companies who want to take advantage of this? Because the old model was operational, you know? I have my cameras, they're watching stuff, whatever, and like now you're in this more of a, distributed computing, computer science mindset, not, you know, put the camera on the wall kind of- I'm oversimplifying, but you know what I'm saying. What's your take on that? >> Well, to the first point of, how are these advances happening? What I was kind of describing was, you know, almost uni-dimensional in that you have like, you're only thinking about vision, but the rise of generative techniques and multi-modality, like Clip is a multi-modal model, it has 400 million image text pairs. That will advance the generalizability at a faster rate than just treating everything as only vision. And that's kind of where LLMs and vision will intersect in a really nice and powerful way. Now in terms of like companies, how should they be thinking about taking advantage of these trends? The biggest thing that, and I think it's different, obviously, on the size of business, if you're an enterprise versus a startup. The biggest thing that I think if you're an enterprise, and you have an established scaled business model that is working for your customers, the question becomes, how do you take advantage of that established data moat, potentially, resource moats, and certainly, of course, establish a way of providing value to an end user. So for example, one of our customers, Walmart, has the advantage of one of the largest inventory and stock of any company in the world. And they also of course have substantial visual data, both from like their online catalogs, or understanding what's in stock or out of stock, or understanding, you know, the quality of things that they're going from the start of their supply chain to making it inside stores, for delivery of fulfillments. All these are are visual challenges. Now they already have a substantial trove of useful imagery to understand and teach and train large models to understand each of the individual SKUs and products that are in their stores. And so if I'm a Walmart, what I'm thinking is, how do I make sure that my petabytes of visual information is utilized in a way where I capture the proprietary benefit of the models that I can train to do tasks like, what item was this? Or maybe I'm going to create AmazonGo-like technology, or maybe I'm going to build like delivery robots, or I want to automatically know what's in and out of stock from visual input fees that I have across my in-store traffic. And that becomes the question and flavor of the day for enterprises. I've got this large amount of data, I've got an established way that I can provide more value to my own customers. How do I ensure I take advantage of the data advantage I'm already sitting on? If you're a startup, I think it's a pretty different question, and I'm happy to talk about. >> Yeah, what's startup angle on this? Because you know, they're going to want to take advantage. It's like cloud startups, cloud native startups, they were born in the cloud, they never had an IT department. So if you're a startup, is there a similar role here? And if I'm a computer vision startup, what's that mean? So can you share your your take on that, because there'll be a lot of people starting up from this. >> So the startup on the opposite advantage and disadvantage, right? Like a startup doesn't have an proven way of delivering repeatable value in the same way that a scaled enterprise does. But it does have the nimbleness to identify and take advantage of techniques that you can start from a blank slate. And I think the thing that startups need to be wary of in the generative AI enlarged language model, in multimodal world, is building what I like to call, kind of like sandcastles. A sandcastle is maybe a business model or a capability that's built on top of an assumption that is going to be pretty quickly wiped away by improving underlying model technology. So almost like if you imagine like the ocean, the waves are coming in, and they're going to wipe away your progress. You don't want to be in the position of building sandcastle business where, you don't want to bet on the fact that models aren't going to get good enough to solve the task type that you might be solving. In other words, don't take a screenshot of what's capable today. Assume that what's capable today is only going to continue to become possible. And so for a startup, what you can do, that like enterprises are quite comparatively less good at, is embedding these capabilities deeply within your products and delivering maybe a vertical based experience, where AI kind of exists in the background. >> Yeah. >> And we might not think of companies as, you know, even AI companies, it's just so embedded in the experience they provide, but that's like the vertical application example of taking AI and making it be immediately usable. Or, of course there's tons of picks and shovels businesses to be built like Roboflow, where you're enabling these enterprises to take advantage of something that they have, whether that's their data sets, their computes, or their intellect. >> Okay, so if I hear that right, by the way, I love, that's horizontally scalable, that's the large language models, go up and build them the apps, hence your developer focus. I'm sure that's probably the reason that the tsunami of developer's action. So you're saying picks and shovels tools, don't try to replicate the platform of what could be the platform. Oh, go to a VC, I'm going to build a platform. No, no, no, no, those are going to get wiped away by the large language models. Is there one large language model that will rule the world, or do you see many coming? >> Yeah, so to be clear, I think there will be useful platforms. I just think a lot of people think that they're building, let's say, you know, if we put this in the cloud context, you're building a specific type of EC2 instance. Well, it turns out that Amazon can offer that type of EC2 instance, and immediately distribute it to all of their customers. So you don't want to be in the position of just providing something that actually ends up looking like a feature, which in the context of AI, might be like a small incremental improvement on the model. If that's all you're doing, you're a sandcastle business. Now there's a lot of platform businesses that need to be built that enable businesses to get to value and do things like, how do I monitor my models? How do I create better models with my given data sets? How do I ensure that my models are doing what I want them to do? How do I find the right models to use? There's all these sorts of platform wide problems that certainly exist for businesses. I just think a lot of startups that I'm seeing right now are making the mistake of assuming the advances we're seeing are not going to accelerate or even get better. >> So if I'm a customer, if I'm a company, say I'm a startup or an enterprise, either one, same question. And I want to stand up, and I have developers working on stuff, I want to start standing up an environment to start doing stuff. Is that a service provider? Is that a managed service? Is that you guys? So how do you guys fit into your customers leaning in? Is it just for developers? Are you targeting with a specific like managed service? What's the product consumption? How do you talk to customers when they come to you? >> The thing that we do is enable, we give developers superpowers to build automated inventory tracking, self-checkout systems, identify if this image is malignant cancer or benign cancer, ensure that these products that I've produced are correct. Make sure that that the defect that might exist on this electric vehicle makes its way back for review. All these sorts of problems are immediately able to be solved and tackled. In terms of the managed services element, we have solutions as integrators that will often build on top of our tools, or we'll have companies that look to us for guidance, but ultimately the company is in control of developing and building and creating these capabilities in house. I really think the distinction is maybe less around managed service and tool, and more around ownership in the era of AI. So for example, if I'm using a managed service, in that managed service, part of their benefit is that they are learning across their customer sets, then it's a very different relationship than using a managed service where I'm developing some amount of proprietary advantages for my data sets. And I think that's a really important thing that companies are becoming attuned to, just the value of the data that they have. And so that's what we do. We tell companies that you have this proprietary, immense treasure trove of data, use that to your advantage, and think about us more like a set of tools that enable you to get value from that capability. You know, the HashiCorp's and GitLab's of the world have proven like what these businesses look like at scale. >> And you're targeting developers. When you go into a company, do you target developers with freemium, is there a paid service? Talk about the business model real quick. >> Sure, yeah. The tools are free to use and get started. When someone signs up for Roboflow, they may elect to make their work open source, in which case we're able to provide even more generous usage limits to basically move the computer vision community forward. If you elect to make your data private, you can use our hosted data set managing, data set training, model deployment, annotation tooling up to some limits. And then usually when someone validates that what they're doing gets them value, they purchase a subscription license to be able to scale up those capabilities. So like most developer centric products, it's free to get started, free to prove, free to poke around, develop what you think is possible. And then once you're getting to value, then we're able to capture the commercial upside in the value that's being provided. >> Love the business model. It's right in line with where the market is. There's kind of no standards bodies these days. The developers are the ones who are deciding kind of what the standards are by their adoption. I think making that easy for developers to get value as the model open sources continuing to grow, you can see more of that. Great perspective Joseph, thanks for sharing that. Put a plug in for the company. What are you guys doing right now? Where are you in your growth? What are you looking for? How should people engage? Give the quick commercial for the company. >> So as I mentioned, Roboflow is I think one of the largest, if not the largest collections of computer vision models and data sets that are open source, available on the web today, and have a private set of tools that over half the Fortune 100 now rely on those tools. So we're at the stage now where we know people want what we're working on, and we're continuing to drive that type of adoption. So companies that are looking to make better models, improve their data sets, train and deploy, often will get a lot of value from our tools, and certainly reach out to talk. I'm sure there's a lot of talented engineers that are tuning in too, we're aggressively hiring. So if you are interested in being a part of making the world programmable, and being at the ground floor of the company that's creating these capabilities to be writ large, we'd love to hear from you. >> Amazing, Joseph, thanks so much for coming on and being part of the AWS Startup Showcase. Man, if I was in my twenties, I'd be knocking on your door, because it's the hottest trend right now, it's super exciting. Generative AI is just the beginning of massive sea change. Congratulations on all your success, and we'll be following you guys. Thanks for spending the time, really appreciate it. >> Thanks for having me. >> Okay, this is season three, episode one of the ongoing series covering the exciting startups from the AWS ecosystem, talking about the hottest things in tech. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (chill electronic music)

>>Hello and welcome back to the live coverage of the Cube here. Live in Detroit, Michigan for Cub Con, our seventh year covering all seven years. The cube has been here. M John Fur, host of the Cube, co-founder of the Cube. I'm here with Lisa Mart, my co-host, and our new host, Savannah Peterson. Great to see you guys. We're wrapping up day one of three days of coverage, and our guest analyst is Sario Wall, who's the cube analyst who's gonna give us his report. He's been out all day, ear to the ground in the sessions, peeking in, sneaking in, crashing him, getting all the data. Great to see you, Sarvi. Lisa Savannah, let's wrap this puppy up. >>I am so excited to be here. My first coupon with the cube and being here with you and Lisa has just been a treat. I can't wait to hear what you have to say in on the report side. And I mean, I have just been reflecting, it was last year's coupon that brought me to you, so I feel so lucky. So much can change in a year, folks. You never know where you're be. Wherever you're sitting today, you could be living your dreams in just a few >>Months. Lisa, so much has changed. I mean, just look at the past this year. Events we're back in person. Yeah. Yep. This is a big team here. They're still wearing masks, although we can take 'em off with a cube. But mask requirement. Tech has changed. Conversations are upleveling, skill gaps still there. So much has changed. >>So much has changed. There's so much evolution and so much innovation that we've also seen. You know, we started out the keynote this morning, standing room. Only thousands of people are here. Even though there's a mass requirement, the community that is CNCF Co Con is stronger than I, stronger than I saw it last year. This is only my second co con. But the collaboration, what they've done, their devotion to the maintainers, their devotion to really finding mentors for mentees was really a strong message this morning. And we heard a >>Lot of that today. And it's going beyond Kubernetes, even though it's called co con. I also call it cloud native con, which I think we'll probably end up being the name because at the end of day, the cloud native scaling, you're starting to see the pressure points. You're start to see where things are breaking, where automation's coming in, breaking in a good way. And we're gonna break it all down Again. So much going on again, I've overs gonna be in charge. Digital is transformation. If you take it to its conclusion, then you will see that the developers are running the business. It isn't a department, it's not serving the business, it is the business. If that's the case, everything has to change. And we're, we're happy to have Sarib here with us Cube analysts on the badge. I saw that with the press pass. Well, >>Thank you. Thanks for getting me that badge. So I'm here with you guys and >>Well, you got a rapport. Let's get into it. You, I >>Know. Let's hear what you gotta say. I'm excited. >>Yeah. Went around, actually attend some sessions and, and with the analysts were sitting in, in the media slash press, and I spoke to some people at their booth and the, there are a few, few patterns, you know, which are, some are the exaggeration of existing patterns or some are kind of new patterns emerging. So things are getting complex in open source. The lawn more projects, right. They have, the CNCF has graduated some projects even after graduation, they're, they're exploring, right? Kubernetes is one of those projects which has graduated. And on that front, just a side note, the new projects where, which are entering the cncf, they're the, we, we gotta see that process and the three stages and all that stuff. I tweeted all day long, if you wanna know what it is, you can look at my tweets. But when I will look, actually write right on that actually after, after the show ends, what, what I saw there, these new projects need to be curated properly. >>I think they need to be weed. There's a lot of noise in these projects. There's a lot of overlap. So the, the work is cut out for CNCF folks, by the way. They're sort of managerial committee or whatever you call that. The, the people who are leading it, they're try, I think they're doing their best and they're doing a good job of that. And another thing actually, I really liked in the morning's keynote was that lot of women on the stage and minorities represented. I loved it, to be honest with you. So believe me, I'm a minority even though I'm Indian, but from India, I'm a minority. So people who have Punjab either know that I'm a minority, so I, I understand their pain and how hard it is to, to break through the ceiling and all that. So I love that part as well. Yeah, the >>Activity is clear. Yeah. From day one. It's in the, it's in the dna. I mean, they'll reject anything that the opposite >>Representation too. I mean, it's not just that everyone's invited, it's they're celebrated and that's a very big difference. Yeah. It's, you see conferences offer discounts for women for tickets or minorities, but you don't necessarily see them put them running where their mouth is actually recruit the right women to be on stage. Right. Something you know a little bit about John >>Diversity brings better outcomes, better product perspectives. The product is better with all the perspectives involved. Percent, it might go a little slower, maybe a little debates, but it's all good. I mean, it's, to me, the better product comes when everyone's in. >>I hope you didn't just imply that women would make society. So >>I think John men, like slower means a slower, >>More diversity, more debate, >>The worst. Bringing the diversity into picture >>Wine. That's, that's how good groups, which is, which is >>Great. I mean, yeah, yeah, >>Yeah, yeah. I, I take that mulligan back and say, hey, you knows >>That's >>Just, it's gonna go so much faster and better and cheaper, but that not diversity. Absolutely. >>Yes. Well, you make better products faster because you have a variety >>Of perspectives. The bigger the group, there's more debate. More debate is key. But the key to success is aligning and committing. Absolutely. Once you have that, and that's what open sources has been about for. Oh God, yeah. Generations >>Has been a huge theme in the >>Show generations. All right, so, so, >>So you have to add another, like another important, so observation if you will, is that the security is, is paramount right. Requirement, especially for open source. There was a stat which was presented in the morning that 60% of the projects in under CNCF have more vulnerabilities today than they had last year. So that was, That's shocking actually. It's a big jump. It's a big jump. Like big jump means jump, jump means like it can be from from 40 to 60 or or 50 or 60. But still that percentage is high. What, what that means is that lot more people are contributing. It's very sort of di carmic or ironic that we say like, Oh this project has 10,000 contributors. Is that a good thing? Right. We do. Do we know the quality of that, where they're coming from? Are there any back doors being, you know, open there? How stringent is the process of rolling those things, which are being checked in, into production? You know, who is doing that? I've >>Wondered about that. Yeah. The quantity, quality, efficacy game. Yes. And what a balance that must be for someone like CNCF putting in the structure to try and >>That's >>Hard. Curate and regulate and, and you know, provide some bumpers on the bowling lane, so to speak, of, of all of these projects. Yeah. >>Yeah. We thought if anybody thought that the innovation coming from, or the number of services coming from AWS or Google Cloud or likes of them is overwhelming, look at open source, it's even more >>Overwhelming. What's your take on the supply chain discussion? More code more happening. What are you hearing there? >>The supply chain from the software? Yeah. >>Supply chain software, supply chain security pays. Are people talking about that? What are you >>Seeing? Yeah, actually people are talking about that. The creation, the curation, not creation. Curation of suppliers of software I think is best done in the cloud. Marketplaces Ive call biased or what, you know, but curation of open source is hard. It's hard to know which project to pick. It's hard to know which project will pan out. Many of the good projects don't see the day light of the day, but some decent ones like it becomes >>A marketing problem. Exactly. The more you have out there. Exactly. The more you gotta get above the noise. Exactly. And the noise echo that. And you got, you got GitHub stars, you got contributors, you have vanity metrics now coming in to this that are influencing what's real. But sometimes the best project could have smaller groups. >>Yeah, exactly. And another controversial thing a little bit I will say that is that there's a economics of the practitioner, right? I usually talk about that and economics of the, the enterprise, right? So practitioners in our world, in software world especially right in systems world, practitioners are changing jobs every two to three years. And number of developers doubles every three years. That's the stat I've seen from Uncle Bob. He's authority on that software side of things. Wow. So that means there's a lot more new entrance that means a lot of churn. So who is watching out for the enterprise enterprises economics, You know, like are we creating stable enterprises? How stable are our operations? On a side note to that, most of us see the software as like one band, which is not true. When we talk about all these roles and personas, somebody's writing software for, for core layer, which is the infrastructure part. Somebody's writing business applications, somebody's writing, you know, systems of bracket, some somebody's writing systems of differentiation. We talk about those things. We need to distinguish between those and have principle based technology consumption, which I usually write about in our Oh, >>So bottom line in Europe about it, in your opinion. Yeah. What's the top story here at coupon? >>Top story is >>Headline. Yeah, >>The, the headline. Okay. The open source cannot be ignored. That's a headline. >>And what should people be paying attention to if there's a trend coming out? See any kind of trends coming out or any kind of signal, What, what do you see that people should pay attention to here? The put top >>Two, three things. The signal is that, that if you are a big shop, like you'd need to assess your like capacity to absorb open source. You need to be certain size to absorb the open source. If you are below that threshold, I mean we can talk about that at some other time. Like what is that threshold? I will suggest you to go with the managed services from somebody, whoever is providing those managed services around open source. So manage es, right? So from, take it from aws, Google Cloud or Azure or IBM or anybody, right? So use open source as managed offering rather than doing it yourself. Because doing it yourself is a lot more heavy lifting. >>I I, >>There's so many thoughts coming, right? >>Mind it's, >>So I gotta ask you, what's your rapport? You have some swag, What's the swag look >>Like to you? I do. Just as serious of a report as you do on the to floor, but I do, so you know, I come from a marketing background and as I, I know that Lisa does as well. And one of the things that I think about that we touched on in this is, is you know, canceling the noise or standing out from the noise and, and on a show floor, that's actually a huge challenge for these startups, especially when you're up against a rancher or companies or a Cisco with a very large budget. And let's say you've only got a couple grand for an activation here. Like most of my clients, that's how I ended up in the CU County ecosystem, was here with the A client before. So there actually was a booth over there and I, they didn't quite catch me enough, but they had noise canceling headphones. >>So if you just wanted to take a minute on the show floor and just not hear anything, which I thought was a little bit clever, but gonna take you through some of my favorite swag from today and to all the vendors, you know, this is why you should really put some thought into your swag. You never know when you're gonna end up on the cube. So since most swag is injection molded plastic that's gonna end up in the landfill, I really appreciate that garden has given all of us a potable plant. And even the packaging is plantable, which is very exciting. So most sustainable swag goes to garden. Well done >>Rep replicated, I believe is their name. They do a really good job every year. They had some very funny pins that say a word that, I'm not gonna say live on television, but they have created, they brought two things for us, yet it's replicated little etch sketch for your inner child, which is very nice. And given that we are in Detroit, we are in Motor City, we are in the home of Ford. We had Ford on the show. I love that they have done the custom K eight s key chains in the blue oval logo. Like >>Fords right behind us by the way, and are on you >>Interviewed, we had 'em on earlier GitLab taking it one level more personal and actually giving out digital portraits today. Nice. Cool. Which is quite fun. Get lap house multiple booths here. They actually IPOed while they were on the show floor at CubeCon 2021, which is fun to see that whole gang again. And then last but not least, really embracing the ship wheel logo of a Kubernetes is the robusta accrue that is giving out bucket hats. And if you check out my Twitter at sabba Savvy, you can see me holding the ship wheel that they're letting everyone pose with. So we are all in on Kubernetes. That cove gone 2022, that's for sure. Yeah. >>And this is something, day one guys, we've got three. >>I wanna get one of those >>Hats. We we need to, we need a group photo >>By the end of Friday we will have a beverage and hats on to sign off. That's, that's my word. If I can convince John, >>Don, what's your takeaway? You guys did a great kind of kickoff about last week or so about what you were excited about, what your thoughts were going to be. We're only on day one, There's been thousands of people here, we've had great conversations with contributors, the community. What's your take on day one? What's your, what's your tagline? >>Well, Savannah and I had at we up, we, we were talking about what we might see and I think we, we were right. I think we had it right. There's gonna be a lot more people than there were last year. Okay, check. That's definitely true. We're in >>Person, which >>Is refreshing. I was very surprised about the mask mandate that kind of caught me up guard. I was major. Yeah. Cause I've been comfortable without the mask. I'm not a mask person, but I had to wear it and I was like, ah, mask. But I understand I support that. But whatever. It's >>Corporate travel policy. So you know, that's what it is. >>And then, you know, they, I thought that they did an okay job with the gates, but they wasn't slow like last time. But on the content side, definitely Kubernetes security, top line headline, Kubernetes at scale security, that's, that's to me the bumper sticker top things to pay attention to the supply chain and the role of docker and the web assembly was a surprise. You're starting to see containers ecosystem coming back to, I won't say tension growth in the functionality of containers cuz they have to solve the security problem in the container images. Okay, you got scanning technology so it's a little bit in the weeds, but there's a huge movement going on to fix that problem to scale it so it's not a problem area contain. And then Dr sent a great job with productivity interviews. Scott Johnston over a hundred million in revenue so far. That's my number. They have not publicly said that. That's what I'm reporting from sources extremely well financially. And they, and they love their business model. They make productivity for developers. That's a scoop. That's new >>Information. That's a nice scoop we just dropped there on the co casually. >>You're watching that. Pay attention to that. But that, that's proof. But guess what, Red Hat's got developers too. Yes. Other people have to, So developers gonna go where it's the best. Yeah. Developers are voting with their code, they're voting with their feet. You will see the winners with the developers and that's what we've talked about. >>Well and the companies are catering to the developers. Savannah and I had a great conversation with Ford. Yeah. You saw, you showed their fantastic swag was an E for Ev right behind us. They were talking about the, all the cultural changes that they've really focused on to cater towards the developers. The developers becoming the influencers as you say. But to see a company that is as, as historied as Ford Motor Company and what they're doing to attract and retain developer talent was impressive. And honestly that surprised me. Yeah. >>And their head of deb relations has been working for, for, for 29 years. Which I mean first of all, most companies on the show floor haven't been around for 29 years. Right. But what I love is when you put community first, you get employees to stick around. And I think community is one of the biggest themes here at Cuco. >>Great. My, my favorite story that surprised me and was cool was the Red Hat Lockheed Martin interview where they had edge deployments with micro edge, >>Micro shift, >>Micro >>Shift, new projects under, there's, there are three new projects under, >>Under that was so, so cool because it was an edge story in deployment for the military where lives are on the line, they actually had it working. That is a real world example of Kubernetes and tech orchestrating to deploy the industrial edge. And I think that's proof in my mind that Kubernetes and this ecosystem is gonna move faster through this next wave of growth. Because once things start clicking, you get hybrid on premise to super cloud and edge. That was, that was my favorite cause it was real. That was real >>Story that it can make is literally life and death on the battlefield. Yeah, that was amazing. With what they're doing and what >>They're talking check out the Lockheed Martin Red Hat edge story on Silicon Angle and then a press release all pillar. >>Yeah. Another actually it's impressive, which we knew this which is happening, but I didn't know that it was happening at this scale is the finops. The finops is, I saw your is a discipline which most companies are adopting bigger companies, which are spending like hundreds of millions dollars in cloud average. Si a team size of finops for finops is seven people. And average number of tools is I think 3.5 or around 3.7 or something like that. Average number of tools they use to control the cost. So finops is a very generic term for years. It's not financial operations, it's the financial operations for the cloud cost, you know, containing the cloud costs. So that's a finops that is a very emerging sort of discipline >>To keep an eye on. And well, not only is that important, I talked to, well one of the principles over there, it's growing and they have real big players in that foundation. Their, their events are highly attended. It's super important. It's just, it's the cost side of cloud. And, and of course, you know, everyone wants to know what's going on. No one wants to leave there. Their Amazon on Yeah, you wanna leave the lights on the cloud, as we always say, you never know what the bill's gonna look like. >>The cloud is gonna reach $3 billion in next few years. So we might as well control the cost there. Yeah, >>It was, it was funny to get the reaction I found, I don't know if I was, how I react, I dunno how I felt. But we, we did introduce Super Cloud to a couple of guests and a, there were a couple reactions, a couple drawn. There was a couple, right. There was a couple, couple reactions. And what I love about the super cloud is that some people are like, oh, cringing. And some people are like, yeah, go. So it's a, it's a solid debate. It is solid. I saw more in the segments that I did with you together. People leaning in. Yeah. Super fun. We had a couple sum up, we had a couple, we had a couple cringes, I'll say their names, but I'll go back and make sure I, >>I think people >>Get 'em later. I think people, >>I think people cringe on the, on the term not on the idea. Yeah. You know, so the whole idea is that we are building top of the cloud >>And then so I mean you're gonna like this, I did successfully introduce here on the cube, a new term called architectural list. He did? That's right. Okay. And I wanna thank Charles Fitzgerald for that cuz he called super cloud architectural list. And that's exactly the point of super cloud. If you have a great coding environment, you shouldn't have to do an architecture to do. You should code and let the architecture of the Super cloud make it happen. And of course Brian Gracely, who will be on tomorrow at his cloud cast said Super Cloud enables super services. Super Cloud enables what Super services, super service. The microservices underneath the covers have to be different. High performing, automated. So again, the debate and Susan, the goal is to keep it open. And that's our, that's our goal. But we had a lot of fun with that. It was fun to poke the bear a little bit. So >>What is interesting to see just how people respond to it too, with you throwing it out there so consistently, >>You wanna poke the bear, get a conversation going, you know, let let it go. We'll see, it's been positive so far. >>There, there I had a discussion outside somebody who is from Ford but not attending this conference and they have been there for a while. I, I just some moment hit like me, like I said, people, okay, technologists are horizontal, the codes are horizontal. They will go from four to GM to Chrysler to Bank of America to, you know, GE whatever, you know, like cross vertical within vertical different vendors. So, but the culture of a company is local, right? Right. Ford has been building cars for forever. They sort of democratize it. They commercialize it, right? But they have some intense culture. It's hard to change those cultures. And how do we bring in the new thinking? What is, what approach that should be? Is it a sandbox approach for like putting new sensors on the car? They have to compete with te likes our Tesla, right? Yeah. But they cannot, if they are afraid of deluding their existing market or they're afraid of failure there, right? So it's very >>Tricky. Great stuff. Sorry. Great to have you on as our cube analyst breaking down the stories. We'll document that, that we'll roll out a post on it. Lisa Savannah, let's wrap up the show for day one. We got day two and three. We'll start with you. What's your summary? Quick bumper sticker. What's today's show all about? >>I'm a community first gal and this entire experience is about community and it's really nice to see the community come together, celebrate that, share ideas, and to have our community together on stage. >>Yeah. To me, to me it was all real. It's happening. Kubernetes cloud native at scale, it's happening, it's real. And we see proof points and we're gonna have faster time to value. It's gonna accelerate faster from here. >>The proof points, the impact is real. And we saw that in some amazing stories. And this is just a one of the cubes >>Coverage. Ib final word on this segment was well >>Said Lisa. Yeah, I, I think I, I would repeat what I said. I got eight, nine years back at a rack space conference. Open source is amazing for one biggest reason. It gives the ability to the developing nations to be at somewhat at par where the dev develop nations and, and those people to lift up their masses through the automation. Cuz when automation happens, the corruption goes down and the economy blossoms. And I think it's great and, and we need to do more in it, but we have to be careful about the supply chains around the software so that, so our systems are secure and they are robust. Yeah, >>That's it. Okay. To me for SAR B and my two great co-host, Lisa Martin, Savannah Peterson. I'm John Furry. You're watching the Cube Day one in, in the Books. We'll see you tomorrow, day two Cuban Cloud Native live in Detroit. Thanks for watching.

>>The cube presents, Coon and cloud native con Europe, 2022, brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >>Welcome to Valencia Spain in Coon cloud native con Europe, 2022. I'm your host Keith Townsend. And we're continuing the conversation with community, with startups, with people building cloud native, a cube alum joint by a CTO. And not as the CTO advisor. I really appreciate talking to CTOs Capel. Th Lou don't forgive me if I murder the name, that's a tough one. I'm I'm, I'm getting warmed up to the cubey, but don't worry. When we get to the technical parts, it's gonna be fun. And then a cube alum, Umer K director of marketing Capel. You're the CTO. So we we'll start out with you. What's the problem statement? What, what, what are you guys doing? >>So, uh, we're building on top of an open source project podcast, custodian, uh, that is in CNCF. And that I built when I was at capital one and just as they were going, they're taking those first few steps. It's a large regulated enterprise into the cloud. And the challenge that I saw was, you know, how do we enable developers to pick whatever tools and technologies they want, if they wanna use Terraform or cloud formation or Ansible? I mean, the cloud gives us APIs and we wanna be able to enable people to use those APIs through innovative ways. Uh, but at the same time, we wanna make sure that the, regardless of what choices those developers make, that the organization is being is being well managed, that all those resources, all that infrastructure is complying to the organizational's policies. And what we saw at the time was that what we were getting impediments around our velocity into the cloud, because we had to cover off on all of the compliance and regulation aspects. >>And we were doing that them as one offs. And so, uh, taking a step back, I realized that what we really needed was a way to go faster on the compliance side and clock custodian was born out of that effort side of desk that we took through enterprise wide. And it was really about, um, accelerating the velocity around compliance, but doing it in the same way that we do application and infrastructure is code. So doing policy as code in a very simple readable YAML DSL, um, because, you know, PO you have, we, anytime we write code, we're gonna more people are gonna read that code than, than are going to need to be able to write it. And so being able to make it really easy to understand from both the developers that are in the environment from the compliance folks or auditors or security folks that might wanna review it, um, it was super important. And then instead of being at the time, we saw lots of very under products and they were all just big walls of red in somebody's corner office and getting that to actually back the information back in the hands of developers so that they can fix things, um, was problematic. So being able to do time remediation and real time collaboration and communication back to developers, Hey, you put a database on the internet. It's okay. We fixed it for you. And here's the corporate policy on how to do it better in the future. >>So this is a area of focus of mind that people, I think don't get right. A lot, the technology hard enough by itself. The transformation cloud is not just about adopting new technologies, but adopting new processes, the data, and information's there automatically. But when I go to an auditor or, or, uh, compliance and say, Hey, we've changed the process for how do we do change control for our software stack? I get a blank stare. It's what do you mean we've been doing it this way for the past 15, 20 years, that's resistance, it's a pain point and projects fail due to this issue. So talk to me about that initial customer engagement. What's what's that conversation like? >>So we start off by deploying our, our platform on top of buck custodian. Um, and as far as our customers, and we give them a view of all the things that are in their cloud, what is their baseline, so to speak. Um, but I think it's really important. Like I think you bring up a good point, like communication, the challenge, larger challenge for enterprises in the cloud, and especially with grocery compliance is understanding that it is not a steady state. It's always, there's always something new in the backlog. And so being able, and the, one of the challenges for larger orgs is just being able to communicate out what that is. I remember changing a tag policy and spending the next two years, explaining it to people what the actual tag policy was. Um, and so being able to actually inform them, you know, via email, via slack, via, you know, any communication mechanism, uh, as they're doing things is, is so powerful to be able to, to help the organization grow together and move and get an alignment about what, what the, what the new things are. >>And then additionally, you know, from a perspective of, uh, tooling that is built for the real world, like being able to, as those new policies come into play, being able to say, okay, we're going to segment into stopping the bleeding on the net new and being able to then take action on what's already deployed that now needs to become into compliance is, is really important. But coming back to your question on customer engagements, so we'll go in and we'll deploy, uh, a SAC platform for them. We'll basically show them all of the things that are there already and extent. Um, we provide a real time SQL interface that customers can use, um, that is an asset inventory of all their cloud assets. Uh, and then we provide, uh, policy packs that sort of cover off on compliance, security, cost, optimizations, and opportunities for them. Uh, and then we help them through, uh, get ops around those policies, help deploy remediation activities and capabilities for their environment. >>So walk me through some of the detail of, of, of the process and where the software helps and where people need to step in. I'm making I'm, I'm talking to my security auditor, and he's saying, you know what, Keith, I understand that the Aw, that the, uh, VM talking to the application, VM talking to the Oracle database, there is a firewall rule that says that that can happen. Show me that rule in cloud custodian. And you're trying to explain, well, well, there's no longer a firewall. There's a service. And the service is talking to that. And it, it is here and clouds, custodian and St is whether Stant help come to either help with the conversation, or where do I inject more of my experience and my ability to negotiate with the auditor. >>So stalet from the perspective, uh, and if we take a step back, we, we talk about governances code and, and the four pillars around compliance, security, cost, optimization operations, uh, that we help organizations do. But if we take a step back, what is cloud custodian? Cloud custodian is really a cloud orchestrator, a resource orchestrator. What <inaudible> provides on top of that is UI UX, um, policy packs at scale execution, across thousands of accounts, but in the context of an auditor, what we're really providing is here's the policy that we're enforcing. And here's the evidence, the attestation over time. And here's the resource database with history that shows how we, how we got here, where we compliant last year to this policy that we just wrote today. >>So shifting the conversation, you just mentioned operations. One of the larger conversations that I have with CIOs and CTOs is where do I put my people? Like this is a really tough challenge. When you look at moving to something like a SRE model, or, uh, let's say, even focus on the SRE, like what, where does the SRE sit in an organization? How does stack, like if at all, help me make those types of strategic decisions if I'm talking about governance overall. So, >>So I think in terms of personas, if you look at there's a cloud engineer, then SRE, I think that what at its core Stackler and cloud custodian does is a centralized engine, right? So your cost policies, your compliance policies, your security policies are not in a silo anymore. It's one tool. It's one repository that everyone can collaborate on as well. And even engineering, a lot of engineering teams run custodian and, and adopt custodian as well. So in terms of persona stack, it really helps bring it together. All teams have the same simple YAML DSL file that they can write their policies, share their policies and communicate and collaborate better as well. >>Yeah. So I mean, cloud transformation for an enterprise is a deeper topic. Like I think, you know, there's a lot of good breast practices establishing a cloud center of excellence. Um, I, I think, you know, investing in training for people, uh, getting certification so everyone can speak the same language when it comes to cloud is a key aspect. When it comes to the operations aspect, I very much believe that you should have, you know, try to devolve and get the developers writing, uh, some of the DevOps. And so having SREs around for the actual application teams is, is valuable, but you still have a core cloud infrastructure engineering group that's doing potentially any of your core networking, any of your, you know, IM authentication aspects. And so, uh, what we found is that, you know, SLA and cloud custodian get PR primarily get deployed by one of three groups. >>The, uh, you know, you've got the, the CIO buyer within that cloud infrastructure engineering team. And what we found is that group is because they're working with the application teams in a read right way. Uh, they're very much more, um, uh, used to doing and open to doing remediation in real time. Um, and so, and then we also have the CISO teams that want to get to a secure compliance state, be able to do audit and, and validate that all the environments are, um, you know, secure, frankly. And then we get to the CFO groups. Uh, and so, and this sometimes is part of the cloud center of excellence. And so it, it has to be this cross team collaboration. And they're really focused on the, that, that cost optimization, finding the over provision, underutilized things, establishing workloads for dev environments to turn them off at night. Um, and of course, respective of time zones, cause we're all global these days. Uh, and so those are sort of the three groups that we see that sort of really want to engage with us because we can provide value for them to help their accelerate their business goals. >>So that's an expansive view, cost compliance, security operations. That's a lot, I'm thinking about all the tools, all the information that feeds into that, where does cloud custodians start and stop? Like, am I putting cloud custodian agents on servers or, uh, pods, like how, how am I interacting with this? >>So the core clock suiting is just to see lot it's stateless, it's designed to be operationally simple. Um, and so you can run it in Kubernetes, in Jenkins. We've seen people use GitLab. We've seen people run just as a query interactive tool just from, um, investigations perspective on their laptop. But when you write a policy, a policy really consists of, you know, a couple of core elements. Uh, you identify a resource you want to target say an S3 bucket or, uh, a Google cloud VM. And then you say establishes that a filters. I want to look for all the C two instances that are on public subnets with an IM roll attached that has the ability to, uh, create another IM user. And so that, you know, you filter down, you ask the arbitrary questions to filter to the interesting set of things you want, and then you take a set of actions on them. >>So you might take an action, like stop an C two instance, and you might use it as an incident response. Um, you might, uh, use it for off hours in a, in that type of policy. So you get this library of filters and actions that you can combine to form, you know, millions of different types of policies. Now, we also have this notion of an execution mode. So you might say, uh, let's operate in real time. Whenever someone launches this instance, whenever there's an API call, we want to introspect what that API I call is doing and make sure that it's compliant to policy. Now, when you do that, custo will, when you, and you run it with the COI, cause you will actually provision a Lambda function and hook up the event sources to it. Uh, and sorry, Lambda really the serverless we bind into the serverless native capabilities of the underlying cloud provider. So Google cloud function, Azure serverless functions, uh, and native AWS Lambda native us. And so now that policy is effectively hermetically sealed, running, uh, in the Seus runtime of that cloud and responding to API calls in real time, all with, you know, structured outputs and logs and metrics to the native cloud provider capabilities around those. Um, and that really ensures that, uh, you know, it's effectively becomes operation free from the perspective of the user of having to maintain infrastructure >>For it. So let's talk about >>Agent agent list and API based. >>Let's talk about like the a non-developer use case specifically finance. Absolutely. We, you have to deploy the ability to deploy, uh, um, uh, SAP in a, uh, E C two instance, but it's very expensive. Do it only when you absolutely need to do it, but you have the rights to do it. And I wanna run a, uh, a check to see if anyone's doing it like this is this isn't a colder developer, what is their experience? So, >>So primarily we focus on the infrastructure. So low balancers, VMs, you know, encryption and address on discs. Um, when we get into the application workloads running on those instances, we spend, we don't spend that that's on our target focus area. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, we can do it. Uh, and it really depends on the underlying cloud provider's capabilities. So in Amazon, there's a system called systems manager and it runs, and it's basically running an agent on the box. We're not running the agent, but we can communicate with that agent. We can, I inspect the, the inventory that's running on that box. We can send commands to that box, through those serverless functions and through those policies. And so we see it commonly used for like incident response and a security perspective where you might wanna take a memory snapshot of, of, of the instance before, uh, um, yeah, putting it into a forensic cloud and adding >>To that, like these days we're seeing the emerging personas of a fops engineer or a fops director as well, because cost in cloud is totally different. So what custodian and Stackler allows to do is again, using the simple policy files. Even if they have a non-developer background, they can understand this DSL, they can create policies, they can better, uh, target developers, better get them to take actions on policy as well. If they're overspending in the cloud or underspending in the cloud, uh, especially with St. You get, they get a lot of, out of the box dashboards and policy packs too. So say they can really understand how the cost has been consumed. They can have the developers take actions because a lot of the fops finance people complain like my developers does not understand it. Right. How do we get them to take action and make sure we are not over spending? Right. So with custodian policies, they're able to send them, uh, educational messages on slack or open a J ticket and really enforce them to take action as well and start saving cost. Like >>If you, uh, if you imagine cloud custodian as, um, you know, cleaning staff for, for the, your, your cloud environment, like it, it's, uh, you know, if you go to a typical, you know, cloud account, you're gonna see chairs that are 10 feet tall sitting at the table. You're gonna, because it's been over provision and obviously, you know, one can use it. Um, you're gonna find like the trash is overflowing because no one set up a log retention policy on the log group or set up S3, uh, life cycle rules on their buckets. And so you just have this, um, sort of this, uh, this explosion of things that people now, you know, beyond application functioning, like beyond, you know, getting to, you know, high performance, Dr. Capable, uh, SLAs around your application model, you now have to worry about the life cycle of all those resources and helping people manage that life cycle and making sure that they're using the, the, just the resources and consumption that they need, because we're all utilization based, uh, in the cloud. And so getting that to be more in line with what the application actually needs is really where we can help organizations and the CFO cost context. >>So, Emil, you got 10 seconds to tell me why you brought me a comic book. >><laugh> we created this comic book, uh, to explain the concept of governance scored in a simplified fashion. I know Keith, you like comic books, I believe. Uh, so it's a simple way of describing what we do, why it's important for pH ops for SecOps teams. And it talks about custodian and St. It as well. >>Well, I'm more of an Ironman type of guy or Batman cloud governance or governance cloud native governance is a very tough problem. I can't under emphasize how many projects get stalled or fail from a perception perspective, even if you're technically delivered what you've asked to deliver. That's where a lot of these conversations are going. We're gonna talk to a bunch of startups that are solving these tough problems here from Licia Spain, I'm Keith Townsend, and you're watching the cube, the leader in high tech coverage.