>>Okay, welcome back everyone. Day three of the cube coverage here at VMware VMware Explorer, not world 12 years. The Cube's been covering VMware is end user conference this year. It's called explore previously world. We got two great guests, friends of the cube friend, cube, alumni and cloud rod, Keith Townson, principal CTO advisor, air streaming his way into world this year in a big way. Congratulations. And course James Erhard principal technology, a at tan zoo cloud ARA. He's been in cloud game for a long time. We've known each other for a long, long time, even before cloud was cloud. So great to see you guys. Thanks for coming on. >>Ah, it's a pleasure, always happy to >>Be here. So day threes are kind of like riff. I'll throw out super cloud. You guys will, will trash it. We'll debate. It'll be controversial and say this damage done by the over rotation of developer experience. We'll defend Tansu, but really the end of the game is, is that guys, we have been on the cloud thing for a long time. We're we're totally into it. And we've been saying infrastructure is code as the end state. We want to get there. Right? DevOps and infrastructure is code has always been the, the, the underlying fire burning in, in all the innovation, but it's now getting legitimately enterprised it's adopted in, in, in large scale, Amazon web services. We saw that rise. It feels we're in another level right now. And I think we're looking at this new wave coming. And I gotta say, you know, the Broadcom thing has put like an electric shock syndrome into this ecosystem cuz they don't know what's gonna happen next. So as a result, everyone's kind of gotta spring in their step a little, whether it's nervous, energy or excitement around something happening, it's all cloud native. So, you know, as VMware's got such a great investment in cloud native, but yet multi cloud's the story. Right? So, so messaging's okay. So what's happening here? Like guys let's, let's break it down. You're on the show floor of the Airstream you're on the inside, but with the seeing the industry, James will start with you what's happening this year with cloud next level and VMware's future. >>Yeah, I think the big thing that is happening is that we are beginning to see the true separation of capacity delivery from capacity consumption in computing. And what I mean by that is the, the abstractions that sort of bled between the idea of a server and the idea of an application have sort of become separated much better. And I think Kubernetes is, is the strong evidence of that. But also all of the public cloud APIs are strong evidence of that. And VMware's APIs, frankly, before that we're strong evidence of that. So I think what's, what's starting to happen now then is, is developers have really kind of pulled very far away from, from anything other than saying, I need compute, I need network. I need storage. And so now you're seeing the technologies that say, well, we've figured out how to do that at a team level, like one team can automate an application to an environment, but another team will, you know, other teams, if I have hundreds of teams or, or thousands of applications, how do I handle that? And that's what the excitement I think is right >>Now. I mean the, the developer we talking, we're going on camera before you came on camera Keith around, you know, your contr statement around the developer experience. Now we, I mean, I believe that the cloud native development environment is doing extremely well right now. You talk to, you know, look around the industry. It's, it's at an all time high and relative to euphoria, you know, sit on the beach with sunglasses. You couldn't be better if you were a developer open source, booming, everything's driving to their doorstep, self service. They're at the center of the security conversation, which shift left. Yeah. There's some things there, but it's, it's a good time. If you're a developer now is VMware gonna be changing that and, and you know, are they gonna meet the developers where they are? Are they gonna try to bring something new? So these are conversations that are super important. Now VMware has a great install base and there's developers there too. So I think I see their point, but, but you have a take on this, Keith, what's your, what's your position on this? How do the developer experience core and tangential played? >>Yeah, we're I think we're doing a disservice to the industry and I think it's hurting and, or D I think I'm gonna stand by my statement. It's damaging the in industry to, to an extent VMware >>What's damaging to the >>Industry. The focusing over focusing on developer experience developer experience is super important, but we're focusing on developer experience the, the detriment of infrastructure, the infrastructure to deliver that developer experience across the industry isn't there. So we're asking VMware, who's a infrastructure company at core to meet the developer where the developer, the developer is at today with an infrastructure that's not ready to deliver on the promise. So when we're, when NetApp is coming out with cool innovations, like adding block storage to VMC on AWS, we collectively yawn. It's an amazing innovation, but we're focused on, well, what does that mean for the developer down the road? >>It should mean nothing because if it's infrastructure's code, it should just work, right. >>It should just work, but it doesn't. Okay. >>I see the damage there. The, >>The, when you're thinking, oh, well I should be able to just simply provide Dr. Service for my on-prem service to this new block level stores, because I can do that in a enterprise today. Non-cloud, we're not there. We're not at a point where we can just write code infrastructure code and that happens. VMware needs the latitude to do that work while doing stuff like innovating on tap and we're, you know, and then I think we, we, when buyers look at what we say, and we, we say VMware, isn't meeting developers where they're at, but they're doing the hard work of normalizing across clouds. I got off a conversation with a multi-cloud customer, John, the, the, the, the unicorn we all talk about. And at the end I tried to wrap up and he said, no, no, no way. I gotta talk about vRealize. Whoa, you're the first customer I heard here talk about vRealize and, and the importance of normalizing that underlay. And we just don't give these companies in this space, the right >>Latitude. So I'm trying to, I'm trying to rock a little bit what you're saying. So from my standpoint, generically speaking, okay. If I'm a, if the developers are key to the, to the cloud native role, which I, I would say they are, then if I'm a developer and I want, and I want infrastructure as code, I'm not under the hood, I'm not getting the weeds in which some lot people love to do. I wanna just make things work. So meet me where I'm at, which means self-service, I don't care about locking someone else should figure that problem out, but I'm gonna just accelerate my velocity, making sure it's secure. And I'm moving on being creative and doing my thing, building apps. Okay. That's the kind of the generic, generic statement. So what has to happen in your mind to >>Get there? Yeah. Someone, someone has to do the dirty work of making the world move as 400, still propagate the data center. They're still H P X running SAP, E there's still, you know, 75% of the world's transactions happen through SAP. And most of that happens on bare metal. Someone needs to do the plumbing to give that infrastructure's cold world. Yeah. Someone needs to say, okay, when I want to do Dr. Between my on premises edge solution and the public cloud, someone needs to make it invisible to the Kubernetes, the, the Kubernetes consuming that, that work isn't done. Yeah. It >>Is. It's an >>Opportunity. It's on paper. >>It's an opportunity though. It's not, I mean, we're not in a bad spot. So I mean, I think what you're getting at is that there's a lot of fix a lot of gaps. All right. I want Jay, I wanna bring you in, because we had a panel at super cloud event. Chris Hoff, you know, beaker was on here. Yeah. He's always snarky, but he's building, he's been building clouds lately. So he's been getting his, his hands dirty, rolling up his sleeves. The title of panel was originally called the innovators dilemma with a question, mark, you know, haha you know, innovators, dilemma, little goof on that. Cuz you know, there's challenges and trade offs like, like he's talking about, he says we should call it the integrator's dilemma because I think a lot of people are talking about, okay, it's not as seamless as it can be or should be in the Nirvana state. >>But there's a lot of integration going on. A lot of APIs are, are key to this API security. One of the most talked about things. I mean I interviewed six companies on API security in the past couple months. So yeah. I mean I never talked to anybody about API security before this year. Yeah. APIs are critical. So these key things of cloud are being attacked. And so there's more complexity as we're getting more successful. And so, so I think this is mucking up some of the conversations, what's your read on this to make the complexity go away. You guys have the, the chaos rain here, which I actually like that Dave does too, but you know, Andy Grove once said let chaos rain and then rain in the chaos. So we're in that reign in the chaos mode. Now what's your take on what Keith was saying around. Yeah. >>So I think that the one piece of the puzzle that's missing a little bit from Keith's narrative that I think is important is it's really not just infrastructure and developers. Right? It's it's there's in fact, and, and I, I wrote a blog post about this a long time ago, right? There's there's really sort of three layers of operations that come out of the cloud model in long term and that's applications and infrastructure at the bottom and in the middle is platform and services. And so I think one of the, this is where VMware is making its play right now is in terms of providing the platform and service capability that does that integration at a lower level works with VMs works with bare metal, works with the public cloud services that are available, makes it easy to access things like database services and messaging services and things along those lines. >>It makes it easy to turn code that you write into a service that can be consumed by other applications, but ultimately creates an in environment that begins to pull away from having to know, to write code about infrastructure. Right. And so infrastructure's, code's great. But if you have a right platform, you don't have to write code about infrastructure. You can actually D declare what basic needs of the application are. And then that platform will say, okay, well I will interpret that. And that's really, that's what Kubernetes strength is. Yeah. And that's what VMware's taking advantage of with what we're doing >>With. Yeah. I remember when we first Lou Tucker and I, and I think you might have been in the room during those OpenStack days and when Kubernetes was just starting and literally just happened, the paper was written, gonna go out and a couple companies formed around it. We said that could be the interoperability layer between clouds and our, our dream at that time was Hey. And, and we, we mentioned and Stratus in our, our super cloud, but the days of spanning clouds, a dream, we thought that now look at Kubernetes. Now it's kind of become that defacto rallying moment for, I won't say middleware, but this abstraction that we've been talking about allows for right once run anywhere. I think to me, that's not nowhere in the market today. Nobody has that. Nobody has anything that could write once, read one, write once and then run on multiple clouds. >>It's more true than ever. We had one customer that just was, was using AKs for a while and then decided to try the application on EKS. And they said it took them a couple of hours to, to get through the few issues they ran into. >>Yeah. I talked to a customer who who's going from, who went from VMC on AWS to Oracle cloud on Oracle cloud's VMware solution. And he raved about now he has a inherent backup Dr. For his O CVS solution because there's a shim between the two. And >>How did he do >>That? The, there there's a solution. And this is where the white space is. James talked about in the past exists. When, when I go to a conference like Cuban, the cube will be there in, in Detroit, in, in, in about 45 days or so. I talk to platform group at the platform group. That's doing the work that VMware red had hash Corp all should be doing. I shouldn't have to build that shim while we rave and, and talk about the power Kubernetes. That's great, but Kubernetes might get me 60 to 65% of their, for the platform right now there's groups of developers within that sit in between infrastructure and sit in between application development that all they do is build platforms. There's a lot of opportunity to build that platform. VMware announced tap one, 1.3. And the thing that I'm surprised, the one on Twitter is talking about is this API discovery piece. If you've ever had to use an API and you don't know how to integrate with it or whatever, and now it, it just magically happens. The marketing at the end of developing the application. Think if you're in you're, you're in a shop that develops hundreds of applications, there's thousands or tens of thousands of APIs that have to be documented. That's beating the developer where it's at and it's also infrastructure. >>Well guys, thanks for coming on the cube. I really appreciate we're on a time deadline, which we're gonna do more. We'll follow up on a power panel after VMware Explorer. Thanks for coming on the cube. Appreciate it. No problem. See you pleasure. Yeah. Okay. We'll be back with more live coverage. You, after this short break, stay with us.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of VM World 2020 brought to you by VM Ware and its ecosystem partners. Hello and welcome back to the cubes. Virtual coverage of VM World 2020 Virtual I'm John for your host of the Cube, our 11th year covering V emeralds. Not in person. It's virtual. I'm with my coast, Dave. A lot, of course. Ah, guest has been on every year since the cubes existed. Sanjay Putin, who is now the chief operating officer for VM Ware Sanjay, Great to see you. It's our 11th years. Virtual. We're not in person. Usually high five are going around. But hey, virtual fist pump, >>virtual pissed bump to you, John and Dave, always a pleasure to talk to you. I give you more than a virtual pistol. Here's a virtual hug. >>Well, so >>great. Back at great. >>Great to have you on. First of all, a lot more people attending the emerald this year because it's virtual again, it doesn't have the face to face. It is a community and technical events, so people do value that face to face. Um, but it is virtually a ton of content, great guests. You guys have a great program here, Very customer centric. Kind of. The theme is, you know, unpredictable future eyes is really what it's all about. We've talked about covert you've been on before. What's going on in your perspective? What's the theme of your main talks? >>Ah, yeah. Thank you, John. It's always a pleasure to talk to you folks. We we felt as we thought, about how we could make this content dynamic. We always want to make it fresh. You know, a virtual show of this kind and program of this kind. We all are becoming experts at many Ted talks or ESPN. Whatever your favorite program is 60 minutes on becoming digital producers of content. So it has to be crisp, and everybody I think was doing this has found ways by which you reduce the content. You know, Pat and I would have normally given 90 minute keynotes on day one and then 90 minutes again on day two. So 180 minutes worth of content were reduced that now into something that is that entire 180 minutes in something that is but 60 minutes. You you get a chance to use as you've seen from the keynote an incredible, incredible, you know, packed array of both announcements from Pat myself. So we really thought about how we could organize this in a way where the content was clear, crisp and compelling. Thekla's piece of it needed also be concise, but then supplemented with hundreds of sessions that were as often as possible, made it a goal that if you're gonna do a break out session that has to be incorporate or lead with the customer, so you'll see not just that we have some incredible sea level speakers from customers that have featured in in our pattern, Mikey notes like John Donahoe, CEO of Nike or Lorry beer C I, a global sea of JPMorgan Chase partner Baba, who is CEO of Zuma Jensen Wang, who is CEO of video. Incredible people. Then we also had some luminaries. We're gonna be talking in our vision track people like in the annuity. I mean, one of the most powerful women the world many years ranked by Fortune magazine, chairman, CEO Pepsi or Bryan Stevenson, the person who start in just mercy. If you watch that movie, he's a really key fighter for social justice and criminal. You know, reform and jails and the incarceration systems. And Malala made an appearance. Do I asked her personally, I got to know her and her dad's and she spoke two years ago. I asked her toe making appearance with us. So it's a really, really exciting until we get to do some creative stuff in terms of digital content this year. >>So on the product side and the momentum side, you have great decisions you guys have made in the past. We covered that with Pat Gelsinger, but the business performance has been very strong with VM. Where, uh, props to you guys, Where does this all tie together for in your mind? Because you have the transformation going on in a highly accelerated rate. You know, cov were not in person, but Cove in 19 has proven, uh, customers that they have to move faster. It's a highly accelerated world, a lot. Lots changing. Multi cloud has been on the radar. You got security. All the things you guys are doing, you got the AI announcements that have been pumping. Thean video thing was pretty solid. That project Monterey. What does the customer walk away from this year and and with VM where? What is the main theme? What what's their call to action? What's what do they need to be doing? >>I think there's sort of three things we would encourage customers to really think about. Number one is, as they think about everything in infrastructure, serves APS as they think about their APS. We want them to really push the frontier of how they modernize their athletic applications. And we think that whole initiative off how you modernized applications driven by containers. You know, 20 years ago when I was a developer coming out of college C, C plus, plus Java and then emerge, these companies have worked on J two ee frameworks. Web Logic, Be Aware logic and IBM Web Street. It made the development off. Whatever is e commerce applications of portals? Whatever was in the late nineties, early two thousands much, much easier. That entire world has gotten even easier and much more Micro service based now with containers. We've been talking about kubernetes for a while, but now we've become the leading enterprise, contain a platform making some incredible investments, but we want to not just broaden this platform. We simplified. It is You've heard everything in the end. What works in threes, right? It's sort of like almost t shirt sizing small, medium, large. So we now have tens Ooh, in the standard. The advanced the enterprise editions with lots of packaging behind that. That makes it a very broad and deep platform. We also have a basic version of it. So in some sense it's sort of like an extra small. In addition to the small medium large so tends to and everything around at modernization, I think would be message number one number two alongside modernization. You're also thinking about migration of your workloads and the breadth and depth of, um, er Cloud Foundation now of being able to really solve, not just use cases, you are traditionally done, but also new ai use cases. Was the reason Jensen and us kind of partner that, and I mean what a great company and video has become. You know, the king maker of these ai driven applications? Why not run those AI applications on the best infrastructure on the planet? Remember, that's a coming together of both of our platforms to help customers. You know automotive banking fraud detection is a number of AI use cases that now get our best and we want it. And the same thing then applies to Project Monterey, which takes the B c f e m A Cloud Foundation proposition to smart Knicks on Dell, HP Lenovo are embracing the in video Intel's and Pen Sandoz in that smart make architectural, however, that so that entire world of multi cloud being operative Phobia Macleod Foundation on Prem and all of its extended use cases like AI or Smart Knicks or Edge, but then also into the AWS Azure, Google Multi Cloud world. We obviously had a preferred relationship with Amazon that's going incredibly well, but you also saw some announcements last week from, uh, Microsoft Azure about azure BMR solutions at their conference ignite. So we feel very good about the migration opportunity alongside of modernization on the third priority, gentlemen would be security. It's obviously a topic that I most recently taken uninterested in my day job is CEO of the company running the front office customer facing revenue functions by night job by Joe Coffin has been driving. The security strategy for the company has been incredibly enlightening to talk, to see SOS and drive this intrinsic security or zero trust from the network to end point and workload and cloud security. And we made some exciting announcements there around bringing together MAWR capabilities with NSX and Z scaler and a problem black and workload security. And of course, Lassiter wouldn't cover all of this. But I would say if I was a attendee of the conference those the three things I want them to take away what BMR is doing in the future of APS what you're doing, the future of a multi cloud world and how we're making security relevant for distributed workforce. >>I know David >>so much to talk about here, Sanjay. So, uh, talk about modern APS? That's one of the five franchise platforms VM Ware has a history of going from, you know, Challenger toe dominant player. You saw that with end user computing, and there's many, many other examples, so you are clearly one of the top, you know. Let's call it five or six platforms out there. We know what those are, uh, and but critical to that modern APS. Focus is developers, and I think it's fair to say that that's not your wheelhouse today, but you're making moves there. You agree that that is, that is a critical part of modern APS, and you update us on what you're doing for that community to really take a leadership position there. >>Yeah, no, I think it's a very good point, David. We way seek to constantly say humble and hungry. There's never any assumption from us that VM Ware is completely earned anyplace off rightful leadership until we get thousands, tens of thousands. You know, we have a half a million customers running on our virtualization sets of products that have made us successful for 20 years 70 million virtual machines. But we have toe earn that right and containers, and I think there will be probably 10 times as many containers is their virtual machines. So if it took us 20 years to not just become the leader in in virtual machines but have 70 million virtual machines, I don't think it will be 20 years before there's a billion containers and we seek to be the leader in that platform. Now, why, Why VM Where and why do you think we can win in their long term. What are we doing with developers Number one? We do think there is a container capability independent of virtual machine. And that's what you know, this entire world of what hefty on pivotal brought to us on. You know, many of the hundreds of customers that are using what was formerly pivotal and FDR now what's called Tan Xue have I mean the the case. Studies of what those customers are doing are absolutely incredible. When I listen to them, you take Dick's sporting goods. I mean, they are building curbside, pick up a lot of the world. Now the pandemic is doing e commerce and curbside pick up people are going to the store, That's all based on Tan Xue. We've had companies within this sort of world of pandemic working on contact, tracing app. Some of the diagnostic tools built without they were the lab services and on the 10 zoo platform banks. Large banks are increasingly standardizing on a lot of their consumer facing or wealth management type of applications, anything that they're building rapidly on this container platform. So it's incredible the use cases I'm hearing public sector. The U. S. Air Force was talking about how they've done this. Many of them are not public about how they're modernizing dams, and I tend to learn the best from these vertical use case studies. I mean, I spend a significant part of my life is you know, it s a P and increasingly I want to help the company become a lot more vertical. Use case in banking, public sector, telco manufacturing, CPG retail top four or five where we're seeing a lot of recurrence of these. The Tan Xue portfolio actually brings us closest to almost that s a P type of dialogue because we're having an apse dialogue in the in the speak of an industry as opposed to bits and bytes Notice I haven't talked at all about kubernetes or containers. I'm talking about the business problem being solved in a retailer or a bank or public sector or whatever have you now from a developer audience, which was the second part of your question? Dave, you know, we talked about this, I think a year or two ago. We have five million developers today that we've been able to, you know, as bringing these acquisitions earn some audience with about two or three million from from the spring community and two or three million from the economic community. So think of those five million people who don't know us because of two acquisitions we don't. Obviously spring was inside Vienna where went out of pivotal and then came back. So we really have spent a lot of time with that community. A few weeks ago, we had spring one. You guys are aware of that? That conference record number of attendees okay, Registered, I think of all 40 or 50,000, which is, you know, much bigger than the physical event. And then a substantial number of them attended live physical. So we saw a great momentum out of spring one, and we're really going to take care of that, That that community base of developers as they care about Java Manami also doing really, really well. But then I think the rial audience it now has to come from us becoming part of the conversation. That coupon at AWS re invent at ignite not just the world, I mean via world is not gonna be the only place where infrastructure and developers come to. We're gonna have to be at other events which are very prominent and then have a developer marketplace. So it's gonna be a multiyear effort. We're okay with that. To grow that group of about five million developers that we today Kate or two on then I think there will be three or four other companies that also play very prominently to developers AWS, Microsoft and Google. And if we're one among those three or four companies and remembers including that list, we feel very good about our ability to be in a place where this is a shared community, takes a village to approach and an appeal to those developers. I think there will be one of those four companies that's doing this for many years to >>come. Santa, I got to get your take on. I love your reference to the Web days and how the development environment change and how the simplicity came along very relevant to how we're seeing this digital transformation. But I want to get your thoughts on how you guys were doing pre and now during and Post Cove it. You already had a complicated thing coming on. You had multi cloud. You guys were expanding your into end you had acquisitions, you mentioned a few of them. And then cove it hit. Okay, so now you have Everything is changing you got. He's got more complex city. You have more solutions, and then the customer psychology is change. You got to spectrums of customers, people trying to save their business because it's changed, their customer behavior has changed. And you have other customers that are doubling down because they have a tailwind from Cove it, whether it's a modern app, you know, coming like Zoom and others are doing well because of the environment. So you got your customers air in this in this in this, in this storm, you know, they're trying to save down, modernized or or or go faster. How are you guys changing? Because it's impacted how you sell. People are selling differently, how you implement and how you support customers, because you already had kind of the whole multi cloud going on with the modern APS. I get that, but Cove, it has changed things. How are you guys adopting and changing to meet the customer needs who are just trying to save their business on re factor or double down and continue >>John. Great question. I think I also talked about some of this in one of your previous digital events that you and I talked about. I mean, you go back to the last week of February 1st week of March, actually back up, even in January, my last trip on a plane. Ah, major trip outside this country was the World Economic Forum in Davos. And, you know, there were thousands of us packed into the small digits in Switzerland. I was sitting having dinner with Andy Jassy in a restaurant one night that day. Little did we know. A month later, everything would change on DWhite. We began to do in late February. Early March was first. Take care of employees. You always wanna have the pulse, check employees and be in touch with them. Because the health and safety of employees is much more important than the profits of, um, where you know. So we took care of that. Make sure that folks were taking care of older parents were in good place. We fortunately not lost anyone to death. Covert. We had some covert cases, but they've recovered on. This is an incredible pandemic that connects all of us in the human fabric. It has no separation off skin color or ethnicity or gender, a little bit of difference in people who are older, who might be more affected or prone to it. But we just have to, and it's taught me to be a significantly more empathetic. I began to do certain things that I didn't do before, but I felt was the right thing to do. For example, I've begun to do 25 30 minute calls with every one of my key countries. You know, as I know you, I run customer operations, all of the go to market field teams reporting to me on. I felt it was important for me to be showing up, not just in the big company meetings. We do that and big town halls where you know, some fractions. 30,000 people of VM ware attend, but, you know, go on, do a town hall for everybody in a virtual zoom session in Japan. But in their time zone. So 10 o'clock my time in the night, uh, then do one in China and Australia kind of almost travel around the world virtually, and it's not long calls 25 30 minutes, where 1st 10 or 15 minutes I'm sharing with them what I'm seeing across other countries, the world encouraging them to focus on a few priorities, which I'll talk about in a second and then listening to them for 10 15 minutes and be, uh and then the call on time or maybe even a little earlier, because every one of us is going to resume button going from call to call the call. We're tired of T. There's also mental, you know, fatigue that we've gotta worry about. Mental well, being long term. So that's one that I personally began to change. I began to also get energy because in the past, you know, I would travel to Europe or Asia. You know, 40 50%. My life has travel. It takes a day out of your life on either end, your jet lag. And then even when you get to a Tokyo or Beijing or to Bangalore or the London, getting between sites of these customers is like a 45 minute, sometimes in our commute. Now I'm able to do many of these 25 30 minute call, so I set myself a goal to talk to 1000 chief security officers. I know a lot of CEOs and CFOs from my times at S A P and VM ware, but I didn't know many security officers who often either work for a CEO or report directly to the legal counsel on accountable to the audit committee of the board. And I got a list of these 1,002,000 people we called email them. Man, I gotta tell you, people willing to talk to me just coming, you know, into this I'm about 500 into that. And it was role modeling to my teams that the top of the company is willing to spend as much time as possible. And I have probably gotten a lot more productive in customer conversations now than ever before. And then the final piece of your question, which is what do we tell the customer in terms about portfolio? So these were just more the practices that I was able to adapt during this time that have given me energy on dial, kind of get scared of two things from the portfolio perspective. I think we began to don't notice two things. One is Theo entire move of migration and modernization around the cloud. I describe that as you know, for example, moving to Amazon is a migration opportunity to azure modernization. Is that whole Tan Xue Eminem? Migration of modernization is highly relevant right now. In fact, taking more speed data center spending might be on hold on freeze as people kind of holding till depend, emmick or the GDP recovers. But migration of modernization is accelerating, so we wanna accelerate that part of our portfolio. One of the products we have a cloud on Amazon or Cloud Health or Tan Xue and maybe the other offerings for the other public dog. The second part about portfolio that we're seeing acceleration around is distributed workforce security work from home work from anywhere. And that's that combination off workspace, one for both endpoint management, virtual desktops, common black envelope loud and the announcements we've now made with Z scaler for, uh, distributed work for security or what the analysts called secure access. So message. That's beautiful because everyone working from home, even if they come back to the office, needs a very different model of security and were now becoming a leader in that area. of security. So these two parts of the portfolio you take the five franchise pillars and put them into these two buckets. We began to see momentum. And the final thing, I would say, Guys, just on a soft note. You know, I've had to just think about ways in which I balance work and family. It's just really easy. You know what, 67 months into this pandemic to burn out? Ah, now I've encouraged my team. We've got to think about this as a marathon, not a sprint. Do the personal things that you wanna do that will make your life better through this pandemic. That in practice is that you keep after it. I'll give you one example. I began biking with my kids and during the summer months were able to bike later. Even now in the fall, we're able to do that often, and I hope that's a practice I'm able to do much more often, even after the pandemic. So develop some activities with your family or with the people that you love the most that are seeing you a lot more and hopefully enjoying that time with them that you will keep even after this pandemic ends. >>So, Sanjay, I love that you're spending all this time with CSOs. I mean, I have a Well, maybe not not 1000 but dozens. And they're such smart people. They're really, you know, in the thick of things you mentioned, you know, your partnership with the scale ahead. Scott Stricklin on who is the C. C so of Wyndham? He was talking about the security club. But since the pandemic, there's really three waves. There's the cloud security, the identity, access management and endpoint security. And one of the things that CSOs will tell you is the lack of talent is their biggest challenge. And they're drowning in all these products. And so how should we think about your approach to security and potentially simplifying their lives? >>Yeah. You know, Dave, we talked about this, I think last year, maybe the year before, and what we were trying to do in security was really simplified because the security industry is like 5000 vendors, and it's like, you know, going to a doctor and she tells you to stay healthy. You gotta have 5000 tablets. You just cannot eat that many tablets you take you days, weeks, maybe a month to eat that many tablets. So ah, grand simplification has to happen where that health becomes part of your diet. You eat your proteins and vegetables, you drink your water, do your exercise. And the analogy and security is we cannot deploy dozens of agents and hundreds of alerts and many, many consoles. Uh, infrastructure players like us that have control points. We have 70 million virtual machines. We have 75 million virtual switches. We have, you know, tens of million's off workspace, one of carbon black endpoints that we manage and secure its incumbent enough to take security and making a lot more part of the infrastructure. Reduce the need for dozens and dozens of point tools. And with that comes a grand simplification of both the labor involved in learning all these tools. Andi, eventually also the cost of ownership off those particular tool. So that's one other thing we're seeking to do is increasingly be apart off that education off security professionals were both investing in ah, lot of off, you know, kind of threat protection research on many of our folks you know who are in a threat. Behavioral analytics, you know, kind of thread research. And people have come out of deep hacking experience with the government and others give back to the community and teaching classes. Um, in universities, there are a couple of non profits that are really investing in security, transfer education off CSOs and their teams were contributing to that from the standpoint off the ways in which we can give back both in time talent and also a treasure. So I think is we think about this. You're going to see us making this a long term play. We have a billion dollar security business today. There's not many companies that have, you know, a billion dollar plus of security is probably just two or three, and some of them have hit a wall in terms of their progress sport. We want to be one of the leaders in cybersecurity, and we think we need to do this both in building great product satisfying customers. But then also investing in the learning, the training enable remember, one of the things of B M worlds bright is thes hands on labs and all the training enable that happened at this event. So we will use both our platform. We in world in a variety of about the virtual environments to ensure that we get the best education of security to professional. >>So >>that's gonna be exciting, Because if you look at some of the evaluations of some of the pure plays I mean, you're a cloud security business growing a triple digits and, you know, you see some of these guys with, you know, $30 billion valuations, But I wanted to ask you about the market, E v m. Where used to be so simple Right now, you guys have expanded your tam dramatically. How are you thinking about, you know, the market opportunity? You've got your five franchise platforms. I know you're very disciplined about identifying markets, and then, you know, saying, Okay, now we're gonna go compete. But how do you look at the market and the market data? Give us the update there. >>Yeah, I think. Dave, listen, you know, I like davinci statement. You know, simplicity is the greatest form of sophistication, and I think you've touched on something that which is cos we get bigger. You know, I've had the great privilege of working for two great companies. s a P and B M where the bulk of my last 15 plus years And if something I've learned, you know, it's very easy. Both companies was to throw these TLS three letter acronyms, okay? And I use an acronym and describing the three letter acronyms like er or s ex. I mean, they're all acronyms and a new employee who comes to this company. You know, Carol Property, for example. We just hired her from Google. Is our CMO her first comments like, My goodness, there is a lot of off acronyms here. I've gotta you need a glossary? I had the same reaction when I joined B. M or seven years ago and had the same reaction when I joined the S A. P 15 years ago. Now, of course, two or three years into it, you learn everything and it becomes part of your speed. We have toe constantly. It's like an accordion like you expanded by making it mawr of luminous and deep. But as you do that it gets complex, you then have to simplify it. And that's the job of all of us leaders and I this year, just exemplifying that I don't have it perfect. One of the gifts I do have this communication being able to simplify things. I recorded a five minute video off our five franchise pill. It's just so that the casual person didn't know VM where it could understand on. Then, when I'm on your shore and when on with Jim Cramer and CNBC, I try to simplify, simplify, simplify, simplify because the more you can talk and analogies and pictures, the more the casual user. I mean, of course, and some other audiences. I'm talking to investors. Get it on. Then, Of course, as you go deeper, it should be like progressive layers or feeling of an onion. You can get deeper. It's not like the entire discussion with Sanjay Putin on my team is like, you know, empty suit. It's a superficial discussion. We could go deeper, but you don't have to begin the discussion in the bowels off that, and that's really what we don't do. And then the other part of your question was, how do we think about new markets? You know, we always start with Listen, you sort of core in contact our borough come sort of Jeffrey Moore, Andi in the Jeffrey more context. You think about things that you do really well and then ask yourself outside of that what the Jason sees that are closest to you, that your customers are asking you to advance into on that, either organically to partnerships or through acquisitions. I think John and I talked about in the previous dialogue about the framework of build partner and by, and we always think about it in that order. Where do we advance and any of the moves we've made six years ago, seven years ago and I joined the I felt VM are needed to make a move into mobile to really cement opposition in end user computing. And it took me some time to convince my peers and then the board that we should by Air One, which at that time was the biggest acquisition we've ever done. Okay. Similarly, I'm sure prior to me about Joe Tucci, Pat Nelson. We're thinking about nice here, and I'm moving to networking. Those were too big, inorganic moves. +78 years of Raghu was very involved in that. The decisions we moved to the make the move in the public cloud myself. Rgu pack very involved in the decision. Their toe partner with Amazon, the change and divest be cloud air and then invested in organic effort around what's become the Claudia. That's an organic effort that was an acquisition fast forward to last year. It took me a while to really Are you internally convinced people and then make the move off the second biggest acquisition we made in carbon black and endpoint security cement the security story that we're talking about? Rgu did a similar piece of good work around ad monetization to justify that pivotal needed to come back in. So but you could see all these pieces being adjacent to the core, right? And then you ask yourself, Is that context meaning we could leave it to a partner like you don't see us get into the hardware game we're partnering with. Obviously, the players like Dell and HP, Lenovo and the smart Knick players like Intel in video. In Pensando, you see that as part of the Project Monterey announcement. But the adjacent seas, for example, last year into app modernization up the stack and into security, which I'd say Maura's adjacent horizontal to us. We're now made a lot more logical. And as we then convince ourselves that we could do it, convince our board, make the move, We then have to go and tell our customers. Right? And this entire effort of talking to CSOs What am I doing is doing the same thing that I did to my board last year, simplified to 15 minutes and get thousands of them to understand it. Received feedback, improve it, invest further. And actually, some of the moves were now making this year around our partnership in distributed Workforce Security and Cloud Security and Z scaler. What we're announcing an XDR and Security Analytics. All of the big announcements of security of this conference came from what we heard last year between the last 12 months of my last year. Well, you know, keynote around security, and now, and I predict next year it'll be even further. That's how you advance the puck every year. >>Sanjay, I want to get your thoughts. So now we have a couple minutes left. But we did pull the audience and the community to get some questions for you, since it's virtually wanted to get some representation there. So I got three questions for you. First question, what comes after Cloud and number two is VM Ware security company. And three. What company had you wish you had acquired? >>Oh, my goodness. Okay, the third one eyes gonna be the turkey is one, I think. Listen, because I'm gonna give you my personal opinion, and some of it was probably predates me, so I could probably safely So do that. And maybe put the blame on Joe Tucci or somebody else is no longer here. But let me kind of give you the first two. What comes after cloud? I think clouds gonna be with us for a long time. First off this multi cloud world, you just look at the moment, um, that AWS and azure and the other clouds all have. It's incredible on I think this that multi cloud from phenomenon. But if there's an adapt ation of it, it's gonna be three forms of cloud. People are really only focus today in private public cloud. You have to remember the edge and Telco Cloud and this pendulum off the right balance of workloads between the data center called it a private cloud. The public cloud on one end and the telco edge on the other end. I think we're in a really good position for workloads to really swing between all three of those locations. Three other part that I think comes as a sequel to Cloud is cloud native. All of the capabilities a serverless functions but also containers that you know. Obviously the one could think of that a sister topics to cloud but the entire world of containers. The other seat, uh, then cloud a cloud native will also be topics, but these were all fairly connected. That's how I'd answer the first question. A security company? Absolutely. We you know, we aspire to be one of the leading companies in cyber security. I don't think they will be only one. We have to show this by the wealth on breath of our customers. The revenue momentum we have Gartner ranking us or the analysts ranking us in top rights of magic quadrants being viewed as an innovator simplifying the stack. But listen, we weren't even on the radar. We weren't speaking of the security conferences years ago. Now we are. We have a billion dollar security business, 20,000 plus customers, really strong presences and network endpoint and workload and Cloud Security. The three Coppola's a lot more coming in Security analytics, Cloud Security distributed workforce Security. So we're here to stay. And if anything, BMR persist through this, we're planning for multi your five or 10 year timeframe. And in that course I mean, the competition is smaller. Companies that don't have the breadth and depth of the n words are Andy muscle and are going market. We just have to keep building great products and serving customer on the third man. There's so many. But I mean, I think Listen, when I was looking back, I always wondered this is before I joined so I could say the summit speculatively on. Don't you know, make this This is BMR. Sorry. This is Sanjay one's opinion. Not VM. I gotta make very, very clear. Well, listen, I would have if I was at BMO in 2012 or 2013. I would love to about service now then service. It was a great company. I don't even know maybe the company's talk, but then talk about a very successful company at that time now. Maybe their priorities were different. I wasn't at the company at the time, but I can speculate if that had happened, that would have been an interesting Now I think that was during the time of Paul Maritz here and and so on. So for them, maybe there were other priorities the company need to get done. But at that time, of course, today s so it's not as big of a even slightly bigger market cap than us. So that's not happening. But that's a great example of a good company that I think would have at that time fit very well with VM Ware. And then there's probably we don't look back and regret we move forward. I mean, I think about the acquisitions we have made the big ones. Okay, Nice era air watch pop in black. Pivotal. The big moves we've made in terms of partnership. Amazon. What? We're announcing this This, you know, this week within video and Z scaler. So you never look back and regret. You always look for >>follow up on that To follow up on that from a developer, entrepreneurial or partner Perspective. Can you share where the white spaces for people to innovate around vm Where where where can people partner and play. Whether I'm an entrepreneur in a garage or venture back, funded or say a partner pivoting and or resetting with Govind, where's the white spaces with them? >>I think that, you know, there's gonna be a number off places where the Tan Xue platform develops, as it kind of makes it relevant to developers. I mean, there's, I think the first way we think about this is to make ourselves relevant toe all of that ecosystem around the C I. C. D type apply platform. They're really good partners of ours. They're like, get lab, You know, all of the ways in which open source communities, you know will play alongside that Hash E Corp. Jay frog there number of these companies that are partnering with us and we're excited about all of their relevancy to tend to, and it's our job to go and make that marketplace better and better. You're going to hear more about that coming up from us on. Then there's the set of data companies, you know, con fluent. You know, of course, you've seen a big I p o of a snowflake. All of those data companies, we'll need a very natural synergy. If you think about the old days of middleware, middleware is always sort of separate from the database. I think that's starting to kind of coalesce. And Data and analytics placed on top of the modern day middleware, which is containers I think it's gonna be now does VM or play physically is a data company. We don't know today we're gonna partner very heavily. But picking the right set of partners been fluent is a good example of one on. There's many of the next generation database companies that you're going to see us partner with that will become part of that marketplace influence. And I think, as you see us certainly produce out the VM Ware marketplace for developers. I think this is gonna be a game changing opportunity for us to really take those five million developers and work with the leading companies. You know, I use the example of get Lab is an example get help there. Others that appeal to developers tie them into our developer framework. The one thing you learn about developers, you can't have a mindset. With that, you all come to just us. It's a very mingled village off multiple ecosystems and Venn diagrams that are coalescing. If you try to take over the world, the developer community just basically shuns you. You have to have a very vibrant way in which you are mingling, which is why I described. It's like, Listen, we want our developers to come to our conferences and reinvent and ignite and get the best experience of all those provide tools that coincide with everybody. You have to take a holistic view of this on if you do that over many years, just like the security topic. This is a multi year pursuit for us to be relevant. Developers. We feel good about the future being bright. >>David got five minutes e. >>I thought you were gonna say Zoom, Sanjay, that was That was my wildcard. >>Well, listen, you know, I think it was more recently and very fast catapult Thio success, and I don't know that that's clearly in the complete, you know, sweet spot of the anywhere. I mean, you know, unified collaboration would have probably put us in much more competition with teams and, well, back someone you always have to think about what's in the in the bailiwick of what's closest to us, but zooms a great partner. Uh, I mean, obviously you love to acquire anybody that's hot, but Eric's doing really well. I mean, Erica, I'm sure he had many people try to come to buy him. I'm just so proud of him as a friend of all that he was named to Time magazine Top 100. But what he's done is phenomenon. I think he could build a company that's just his important, his Facebook. So, you know, I encourage him. Don't sell, keep building the company and you'll build a company that's going to be, you know, the enterprise version of Facebook. And I think that's a tremendous opportunity to do this better than anybody else is doing. And you know, I'm as an immigrant. He's, you know, China. Born now American, I'm Indian born, American, assim immigrants. We both have a similar story. I learned a lot from him. I learned a lot from him, from on speed on speed and how to move fast, he tells me he learns a thing to do for me on scale. We teach each other. It's a beautiful friendship. >>We'll make sure you put in a good word for the Kiwi. One more zoom integration >>for a final word or the zoom that is the future Facebook of the enterprise. Whatever, Sanjay, Thank >>you for connecting with us. Virtually. It is a digital foundation. It is an unpredictable world. Um, it's gonna change. It could be software to find the operating models or changing you guys. We're changing how you serve customers with new chief up commercial customer officer you have in place, which is a new hire. Congratulations. And you guys were flexing with the market and you got a tailwind. So congratulations, >>John and Dave. Always a pleasure. We couldn't do this without the partnership. Also with you. Congratulations of Successful Cube. And in its new digital format, Thank you for being with us With VM world here on. Do you know all that you're doing to get the story out? The guests that you have on the show, they look forward, including the nonviable people like, Hey, can I get on the Cuban like, Absolutely. Because they look at your platform is away. I'm telling this story. Thanks for all you're doing. I wish you health and safety. >>I'm gonna bring more community. And Dave is, you know, and Sanjay, and it's easier without the travel. Get more interviews, tell more stories and tell the most important stories. And thank you for telling your story and VM World story here of the emerald 2020. Sanjay Poon in the chief operating officer here on the Cube I'm John for a day Volonte. Thanks for watching Cube Virtual. Thanks for watching.

>> Jeff: Hello, everybody and thank you for Joining us today for the virtual "Vertica VBC" 2020. Today's breakout session has been titled "Optimizing Query Performance and Resource Pool Tuning" I'm Jeff Ealing, I lead Vertica marketing. I'll be your host for this breakout session. Joining me today are Rakesh Banula, and Abhi Thakur, Vertica product technology engineers and key members of the Vertica customer success team. But before we begin, I encourage you to submit questions or comments during the virtual session. You don't have to wait. Just type your question or comment in the question box below the slides and click Submit. There will be a Q&A session at the end of the presentation. We'll answer as many questions we're able to during that time. Any questions we don't address, we'll do our best to answer them offline. Alternatively, visit Vertica forums at forum.vertica.com to post your questions there after the session. Our engineering team is planning to Join the forums to keep the conversation going. Also a reminder that you can maximize your screen by clicking the double arrow button in the lower right corner of your slides. And yes, this virtual session is being recorded, will be available to view on demand this week. We'll send you a notification as soon as it's ready. Now let's get started. Over to you Rakesh. >> Rakesh: Thank you, Jeff. Hello, everyone. My name is Rakesh Bankula. Along with me, we have Bir Abhimanu Thakur. We both are going to cover the present session on "Optimizing Query Performance and Resource Pool Tuning" In this session, we are going to discuss query optimization, how to review the query plans and how to get the best query plans with proper production design. Then discuss on resource allocations and how to find resource contention. And we will continue the discussion on important use cases. In general, to successfully complete any activity or any project, the main things it requires are the plan. Plan for that activity on what to do first, what to do next, what are things you can do in parallel? The next thing you need, the best people to work on that project as per the plan. So, first thing is a plan and next is the people or resources. If you overload the same set of people, our resources by involving them in multiple projects or activities or if any person or resource is sick in a given project is going to impact on the overall completion of that project. The same analogy we can apply through query performance too. For a query to perform well, it needs two main things. One is the best query plan and other is the best resources to execute the plan. Of course, in some cases, resource contention, whether it can be from system side or within the database may slow down the query even when we have best query plan and best resource allocations. We are going to discuss each of these three items a little more in depth. Let us start with query plan. User submits the query to database and Vertica Optimizer generates the query plan. In generating query plans, optimizer uses the statistics information available on the tables. So, statistics plays a very important role in generating good query plans. As a best practice, always maintain up-to-date statistics. If you want to see how query plan looks like, add explain keyword in front of your query and run that query. It displays the query plan on the screen. Other option is BC explained plans. It saves all the explained plans of the queries run on the database. So, once you have a query plan, once you're checking it to make sure plan is good. The first thing I would look for, no statistics are predicted out of range. If you see any of these, means table involved in the query, have no up to date statistics. It is now the time to update the statistics. Next thing to explain plans are broadcast, three segments around the Join operator, global re segments around a group by operators. These indicate during the runtime of the query, data flow between the nodes over the network and will slow down the query execution. As far as possible, prevent such operations. How to prevent this, we will discuss in the projection design topic. Regarding the Join order, check on inner side and outer side, which tables are used, how many rows each side processing. In (mumbles) picking a table, having smaller number of rows is good in case of as shown as, as Join built in memory, smaller the number of rows, faster it is to build the hash table and also helps in consuming less memory. Then check if the plan is picking query specific projection or default projections. If optimizer ignoring any query specific projection, but picking the default super projection will show you how to use query specific hints to follow the plant to pick query specific projections which helps in improving the performance. Okay, here is one example query plan of a query trying to find number of products sold from a store in a given state. This query is having Joins between store table, product table and group by operation to find the count. So, first look for no statistics particularly around storage access path. This plan is not reporting any no statistics. This means statistics are up to date and plan is good so far. Then check what projections are used. This is also around the storage access part. For Join orders check, we have Hash Join in path ID 4 having it In Path ID 6 processing 60,000 rows and outer is in Path ID 7 processing 20 million rows. Inner side processing last record is good. This helps in building hash table quicker by using less memory. Check if any broadcast re segments, Joins in Path ID 4 and also Path ID 3. Both are having inner broadcast, Inners are having 60,000 records are broadcasted to all nodes in the cluster. This could impact the query performance negatively. These are some of the main things which we normally check in the explained plans. Still now, We have seen that how to get good query plans. To get good query plans, we need to maintain up to date statistics and also discussed how to review query plans. Projection design is the next important thing in getting good query plans, particularly in preventing broadcasts re segments. Broadcast re segments happens during Join operation, random existing segmentation class of the projections involved in the Join not matching with the Join columns in the query. These operations causes data flow over the network and negatively impacts the query performance particularly when it transfers millions or billions of rows. These operations also causes query acquire more memory particularly in network send and receive operations. One can avoid these broadcast re segments with proper projection segmentation, say, Join involved between two fact tables, T1, T2 on column I then segment the projections on these T1, T2 tables on column I. This is also called identically segmenting projections. In other cases, Join involved between a fact table and a dimension table then replicate or create an unsegmented projection on dimension table will help avoiding broadcast re segments during Join operation. During group by operation, global re segment groups causes data flow over the network. This can also slow down the query performance. To avoid these global re segment groups, create segmentation class of the projection to match with the group by columns in the query. In previous slides, we have seen the importance of projection segmentation plus in preventing the broadcast re segments during the Join operation. The order by class of production design plays important role in picking the Join method. We have two important Join methods, Merge Join and Hash Join. Merge Join is faster and consumes less memory than hash Join. Query plan uses Merge Join when both projections involved in the Join operation are segmented and ordered on the Join keys. In all other cases, Hash Join method will be used. In case of group by operation too, we have two methods. Group by pipeline and group by Hash. Group by pipeline is faster and consumes less memory compared to group by Hash. The requirements for group by pipeline is, projection must be segmented and ordered by on grouping columns. In all other cases, group by hash method will be used. After all, we have seen importance of stats and projection design in getting good query plans. As statistics are based on estimates over sample of data, it is possible in a very rare cases, default query plan may not be as good as you expected, even after maintaining up-to-date stats and good projection design. To work around this, Vertica providing you some query hints to force optimizer to generate even better query plans. Here are some example Join hints which helps in picking Join method and how to distribute the data, that is broadcast or re segment on inner or outer side and also which group by method to pick. The table level hints helps to force pick query specific projection or skipping any particular projection in a given query. These all hints are available in Vertica documentation. Here are a few general hints useful in controlling how to load data with the class materialization et cetera. We are going to discuss some examples on how to use these query hints. Here is an example on how to force query plan to pick Hash Join. The hint used here is JTYPE, which takes arguments, H for HashJoin, M for MergeJoin. How to place this hint, just after the Join keyword in the query as shown in the example here. Another important Join in this, JFMT, Join For My Type hint. This hint is useful in case when Join columns are lost workers. By default Vertica allocates memory based on column data type definition, not by looking at the actual data length in those columns. Say for example, Join column defined as (mumbles) 1000, 5000 or more, but actual length of the data in this column is, say, less than 50 characters. Vertica going to use more memory to process such columns in Join and also slow down the Join processing. JSMP hint is useful in this particular case. JSMP parameter uses the actual length of the Join column. As shown in the example, using JFMP of V hint helps in reducing the memory requirement for this query and executes faster too. Distrib hint helps in how to force inner or outer side of the Join operator to be distributed using broadcast or re segment. Distrib takes two parameters. First is the outer site and second is the inner site. As shown in the example, DISTRIB(A,R) after Join keyword in the query helps to force re segment the inner side of the Join, outer side, leaving it to optimizer to choose that distribution method. GroupBy Hint helps in forcing query plan to pick Group by Hash or Group by Pipeline. As shown in the example, GB type or hash, used just after group by class in the query helps to force this query to pick Group by Hashtag. See now, we discussed the first part of query performance, which is query plans. Now, we are moving on to discuss next part of query performance, which is resource allocation. Resource Manager allocates resources to queries based on the settings on resource pools. The main resources which resource pools controls are memory, CPU, query concurrency. The important resource pool parameters, which we have to tune according to the workload are memory size, plan concurrency, mass concurrency and execution parallelism. Query budget plays an important role in query performance. Based on the query budget, query planner allocate worker threads to process the query request. If budget is very low, query gets less number of threads, and if that query requires to process huge data, then query takes longer time to execute because of less threads or less parallelism. In other case, if the budget is very high and query executed on the pool is a simple one which results in a waste of resources, that is, query which acquires the resources holds it till it complete the execution, and that resource is not available to other queries. Every resource pool has its own query budget. This query budget is calculated based on the memory size and client and currency settings on that pool. Resource pool status table has a column called Query Budget KB, which shows the budget value of a given resource pool. The general recommendation for query budget is to be in the range of one GB to 10 GB. We can do a few checks to validate if the existing resource pool settings are good or not. First thing we can check to see if query is getting resource allocations quickly, or waiting in the resource queues longer. You can check this in resource queues table on a live system multiple times, particularly during your peak workload hours. If large number of queries are waiting in resource queues, indicates the existing resource pool settings not matching with your workload requirements. Might be, memory allocated is not enough, or max concurrency settings are not proper. If query's not spending much time in resource queues indicates resources are allocated to meet your peak workload, but not sure if you have over or under allocated the resources. For this, check the budget in resource pool status table to find any pool having way larger than eight GB or much smaller than one GB. Both over allocation and under allocation of budget is not good for query performance. Also check in DC resource acquisitions table to find any transaction acquire additional memory during the query execution. This indicates the original given budget is not sufficient for the transaction. Having too many resource pools is also not good. How to create resource pools or even existing resource pools. Resource pool settings should match to the present workload. You can categorize the workload into well known workload and ad-hoc workload. In case of well-known workload, where you will be running same queries regularly like daily reports having same set of queries processing similar size of data or daily ETL jobs et cetera. In this case, queries are fixed. Depending on the complexity of the queries, you can further divide it into low, medium, high resource required pools. Then try setting the budget to 1 GB, 4 GB, 8 GB on these pools by allocating the memory and setting the plan concurrency as per your requirement. Then run the query and measure the execution time. Try couple UP iterations by increasing and then decreasing the budget to find the best settings for your resource pools. For category of ad-hoc workload where there is no control over the number of users going to run the queries concurrently, or complexity of queries user going to submit. For this category, we cannot estimate, in advance, the optimum query budget. So for this category of workload, we have to use cascading resource pool settings where query starts on the pool based on the runtime they have set, then query resources moves to a secondary pool. This helps in preventing smaller queries waiting for resources, longer time when a big query consuming all resources and rendering for a longer time. Some important resource pool monitoring tables, analyze system, you can query resource cues table to find any transaction waiting for resources. You will also find on which resource pool transaction is waiting, how long it is waiting, how many queries are waiting on the pool. Resource pool status gives info on how many queries are in execution on each resource pool, how much memory in use and additional info. For resource consumption of a transaction which was already completed, you can play DC resource acquisitions to find how much memory a given transaction used per node. DC resource pool move table shows info on what our transactions moved from primary to secondary pool in case of cascading resource pools. DC resource rejections gives info on which node, which resource a given transaction failed or rejected. Query consumptions table gives info on how much CPU disk network resources a given transaction utilized. Till now, we discussed query plans and how to allocate resources for better query performance. It is possible for queries to perform slower when there is any resource contention. This contention can be within database or from system side. Here are some important system tables and queries which helps in finding resource contention. Table DC query execution gives the information on transaction level, how much time it took for each execution step. Like how much time it took for planning, resource allocation, actual execution etc. If the time taken is more in planning, which is mostly due to catalog contentions, you can play DC lock releases table as shown here to see how long transactions are waiting to acquire global catalog lock, how long transaction holding GCL x. Normally, GCL x acquire and release should be done within a couple of milliseconds. If the transactions are waiting for a few seconds to acquire GCL x or holding GCL x longer indicates some catalog contention, which may be due to too many concurrent queries or due to long running queries, or system services holding catalog mutexes and causing other transactions to queue up. A query is given here, particularly the system tables will help you further narrow down the contention. You can vary sessions table to find any long-running user queries. You can query system services table to find any service like analyze row counts, move out, merge operation and running for a long time. DC all evens table gives info on what are slower events happening. You can also query system resource usage table to find any particular system resource like CPU memory, disk IO or network throughput, saturating on any node. It is possible once slow node in the cluster could impact overall performance of queries negatively. To identify any slow node in the cluster, we use queries. Select one, and (mumbles) Clearly key one query just executes on initiative node. On a good node, kV one query returns within 50 milliseconds. As shown here, you can use a script to run this, select kV one query on all nodes in the cluster. You can repeat this test multiple times, say five to 10 times then reveal the time taken by this query on all nodes in all tech (mumbles) . If there is any one node taking more than a few seconds compared to other notes taking just milliseconds, then something is wrong with that node. To find what is going on with the node, which took more time for kV one query, run perf top. Perf top gives info on stopped only lister functions in which system spending most of the time. These functions can be counter functions or Vertica functions, as shown here. Based on their systemic spending most of the time we'll get some clue on what is going on with that code. Abhi will continue with the remaining part of the session. Over to you Abhi. >> Bir: Hey, thanks, Rakesh. My name is Abhimanu Thakur and today I will cover some performance cases which we had addressed recently in our customer clusters which we will be applying the best practices just showed by Rakesh. Now, to find where the performance problem is, it is always easy if we know where the problem is. And to understand that, like Rakesh just explained, the life of a query has different phases. The phases are pre execution, which is the planning, execution and post execution which is releasing all the required resources. This is something very similar to a plane taking a flight path where it prepares itself, gets onto the runway, takes off and lands back onto the runway. So, let's prepare our flight to take off. So, this is a use case which is from a dashboard application where the dashboard fails to refresh once in a while, and there is a batch of queries which are sent by the dashboard to the Vertica database. And let's see how we can be able to see where the failure is or where the slowness is. To reveal the dashboard application, these are very shortly queries, we need to see what were the historical executions and from the historical executions, we basically try to find where is the exact amount of time spent, whether it is in the planning phase, execution phase or in the post execution and if they are pretty consistent all the time, which means the plan has not changed in the execution which will also help us determine what is the memory used and if the memory budget is ideal. As just showed by Rakesh, the budget plays a very important role. So DC query executions, one-stop place to go and find your timings, whether it is a timing extra or is it execute plan or is it an abandoned plan. So, looking at the queries which we received and the times from the scrutinize, we find most of the time average execution, the execution is pretty consistent and there is some time, extra time spent in the planning phase which users of (mumbles) resource contention. This is a very simple matrix which you can follow to find if you have issues. So the system resource convention catalog contention and resource contention, all of these contribute mostly because of the concurrency. And let's see if we can drill down further to find the issue in these dashboard application queries. So, to get the concurrency, we pull out the number of queries issued, what is the max concurrency achieved, what are the number of threads, what is the overall percentage of query duration and all this data is available in the V advisor report. So, as soon as you provide scrutinize, we generate the V advisor report which helps us get complete insight of this data. So, based on this we definitely see there is very high concurrency and most of the queries finish in less than a second which is good. There are queries which go beyond 10 seconds and over a minute, but so definitely, the cluster had concurrency. What is more interesting is to find from this graph is... I'm sorry if this is not very readable, but the topmost line what you see is the Select and the bottom two or three lines are the create, drop and alters. So definitely this cluster is having a lot of DDL and DMLs being issued and what do they contribute is if there is a large DDL and DMLs, they cause catalog contention. So, we need to make sure that the batch, what we're sending is not causing too many catalog contention into the cluster which delays the complete plan face as the system resources are busy. And the same time, what we also analyze is the analyze tactics running every hour which is very aggressive, I would say. It should be scheduled to be need only so if a table has not changed drastically that's not scheduled analyzed tactics for the table. A couple more settings has shared by Rakesh is, it definitely plays a important role in the modeled and mode operations. So now, let's look at the budget of the query. The budget of the resource pool is currently at about two GB and it is the 75 percentile memory. Queries are definitely executing at that same budget, which is good and bad because these are dashboard queries, they don't need such a large amount of memory. The max memory as shown here from the capture data is about 20 GB which is pretty high. So what we did is, we found that there are some queries run by different user who are running in the same dashboard pool which should not be happening as dashboard pool is something like a premium pool or kind of a private run way to run your own private jet. And why I made that statement is as you see, resource pools are lik runways. You have different resource pools, different runways to cater different types of plane, different types of flights which... So, as you can manage your resource pools differently, your flights can take off and land easily. So, from this we did remind that the budget is something which could be well done. Now let's look... As we saw in the previous numbers that there were some resource weights and like I said, because resource pools are like your runways. So if you have everything ready, your plane is waiting just to get onto the runway to take off, you would definitely not want to be in that situation. So in this case, what we found is the coolest... There're quite a bit number of queries which have been waited in the pool and they waited almost a second and which can be avoided by modifying the the amount of resources allocated to the resource pool. So in this case, we increase the resource pool to provide more memory which is 80 GB and reduce the budget from two GB to one GB. Also making sure that the plan concurrency is increased to match the memory budget and also we moved the user who was running into the dashboard query pool. So, this is something which we have gone, which we found also in the resource pool is the execution parallelism and how this affects and what what number changes. So, execution parallelism is something which allocates the plan, allocates the number of threads, network buffers and all the data around it before even the query executes. And in this case, this pool had auto, which defaults to the core count. And so, dashboard queries not being too high on resources, they need to just get what they want. So we reduced the execution parallelism to eight and this drastically brought down the amount of threads which were needed without changing the time of execution. So, this is all what we saw how we could tune before the query takes off. Now, let's see what path we followed. This is the exact path what we followed. Hope of this diagram helps and these are the things which we took care of. So, tune your resource pool, adjust your execution parallelism based on the type of the queries the resource pool is catering to and match your memory sizes and don't be too aggressive on your resource budget. And see if you could replace your staging tables with temporary tables as they help a lot in reducing the DDLs and DMLs, reducing the catalog contention and the places where you cannot replace them with the truncate tables, reduce your analyzed statics duration and if possible, follow the best practices for a couple more operations. So moving on, let's let our query take a flight and see what best practices can be applied here. So this is another, I would say, very classic example of query where the query has been running and suddenly stops to fail. And if there is... I think most of the other seniors in a Join did not fit in memory. What does this mean? It basically means the inner table is trying to build a large Hash table, and it needs a lot of memory to fit. There are only two reasons why it could fail. One, your statics are outdated and your resource pool is not letting you grab all the memory needed. So in this particular case, the resource pool is not allowing all the memory it needs. As you see, the query acquire 180 GB of memory, and it failed. When looking at the... In most cases, you should be able to figure out the issue looking at the explained plan of the query as shared by Rakesh earlier. But in this case if you see, the explained plan looks awesome. There's no other operator like in a broadcast or outer V segment or something like that, it's just Join hash. So looking further we find into the projection. So inner is on segmented projection, the outer is segmented. Excellent. This is what is needed. So in this case, what we would recommend is go find further what is the cost. The cost to scan this row seems to be pretty high. There's the table DC query execution in their profiles in Vertica, which helps you drill down to every smallest amount of time, memory and what were the number of rows used by individual operators per pack. So, while looking into the execution engine profile details for this query, we found the amount of time spent is on the Join operator and it's the Join inner Hash table build time, which has taking huge amount of time. It's just waiting basically for the lower operators can and storage union to pass the data. So, how can we avoid this? Clearly, we can avoid it by creating a segmented projection instead of unsegmented projection on such a large table with one billion rows. Following the practice to create the projection... So this is a projection which was created and it was segmented on the column which is part of the select clause over here. Now, that plan looks nice and clean still, and the execution of this query now executes in 22 minutes 15 seconds and the most important you see is the memory. It executes in just 15 GB of memory. So, basically to what was done is the unsegmented projection which acquires a lot of memory per node is now not taking that much of memory and executing faster as it has been divided by the number of nodes per node to execute only a small share of data. But, the customer was still not happy as 22 minutes is still high. And let's see if we can tune it further to make the cost go down and execution time go down. So, looking at the explained plan again, like I said, most of the time, you could see the plan and say, "What's going on?" In this case, there is an inner re segment. So, how could we avoid the inner re segments? We can avoid the inner re segment... Most of the times, all the re segments just by creating the projection which are identically segmented which means your inner and outer both have the same amount, same segmentation clause. The same was done over here, as you see, there's now segment on sales ID and also ordered by sales ID which helps us execute the query drop from 22 minutes to eight minutes, and now the memory acquired is just equals to the pool budget which is 8 GB. And if you see, the most What is needed is the hash Join is converted into a merge Join being the ordered by the segmented clause and also the Join clause. So, what this gives us is, it has the new global data distribution and by changing the production design, we have improved the query performance. But there are times when you could not have changed the production design and there's nothing much which can be done. In all those cases, as even in the first case of Vertica after fail of the inner Join, the second Vertica replan (mumbles) spill to this operator. You could let the system degrade by acquiring 180 GB for whatever duration of minutes the query had. You could simply use this hand to replace and run the query in the very first go. Let the system have all the resources it needs. So, use hints wherever possible and filter disk is definitely your option where there're no other options for you to change your projection design. Now, there are times when you find that you have gone through your query plan, you have gone through every other thing and there's not much you see anywhere, but you definitely look at the query and you feel that, "Now, I think I can rewrite this query." And how what makes you decide that is you look at the query and you see that the same table has been accessed several times in my query plan, how can I rewrite this query to access my table just once? And in this particular use case, a very simple use case where a table is scanned three times for several different filters and then a union in Vertica union is kind of costly operator I would say, because union does not know what's the amount of data which should be coming from the underlying query. So we allocate a lot of resources to keep the union running. Now, we could simply replace all these unions by simple "Or" clause. So, simple "Or" clause changes the complete plan of the query and the cost drops down drastically. And now the optimizer almost know the exact amount of rows it has to process. So change, look at your query plans and see if you could make the execution in the profile or the optimizer do better job just by doing some small rewrites. Like if there are some tables frequently accessed you could even use a "With" clause which will do an early materialization and make use the better performance or for the union which I just shared and replace your left Joins with right Joins, use your (mumbles) like shade earlier for you changing your hash table types. This is the exact part what we have followed in this presentation. Hope this presentation was helpful in addressing, at least finding some performance issues in your queries or in your class test. So, thank you for listening to our presentation. Now we are ready for Q&A.

>>from San Francisco. It's the Cube covering. Get lab commit 2020 Brought to you by get lab. >>Welcome back. I'm Stew Minutemen, and this is get lab Commit 2020 here in San Francisco. Happy to welcome to the program. First time guests and TN Who is the co founder and CEO of Matter Most in. Nice to meet you. >>Thanks. Thanks for having me. >>Alright. S O. I always love. When you get the founders, we go back to a little bit of the why. And just from our little bit of conversation, there is a connection with get lab. You have relationships, Syd, Who's the co founder and CEO of get lab? So bring us back and tell us a little bit about that. >>Yeah, thanks. So I'm you know, I'm ex Microsoft. So I came from collaboration for many years there. And then, you know what I did after Microsoft's I started my own started a sort of video game company was backed by Y Combinator and, you know, we had were doing 85. Game engine is very, very fun on. We ran the entire company off of a messaging product. Misses, You know, a little while ago and it happens that messing product got bought by a big company and that got kind neglected. It started crashing and lose data. We were super unhappy. We tried to export and they wouldn't let us export. We had 26 gigs of all information. And when we stop paying our subscription, they would pay one less for our own information. So, you know, very unhappy. And we're like, holy cats. Like what? I'm gonna d'oh! And rather than go to another platform, we actually realized about 10 million hours of people running messaging and video games. Well, why don't we kind of build this ourselves? So we kind of build a little prototype, started using ourselves internally and because, you know, Sid was this a 2015 and said was out of my Combinator, We were y commoner would invent and we started talking. I was showing him what we built and sits like. You should open source that. And he had this really compelling reason. He's like, Well, if you open source it and people like it, you can always close source it again because it's a prototype. But if you open source, it and no one cares. You should stop doing what you do. And he was great. Kind of send me like this email with all the things you need to dio to run open source business. And it was just wonderful. And it just it is a start taking off. We started getting these wonderful, amazing enterprise customers that really saw what mattered most was at the very beginning, which was You know, some people call us open source slack, but what it really is, it's a collaborates, a collaboration platform for real Time Dev ops and it release. For people who are regulated, it's gonna offer flexibility and on Prem deployment and a lot of security and customization. So that's kind of we started and get lab is we kind of started Farley. We started following get labs footsteps and you'll find today with get lab is we're we're bundled with the omnibus. So all you have to do is put what your own would you like matter most on one. Get lab reconfigure and europe running. >>Yeah, I love that. That story would love you to tease out a little bit when you hear you know, open source. You know, communications and secure might not be things that people would necessarily all put together. So help us understand a little bit the underlying architecture. This isn't just, you know, isn't messaging it, Z how is it different from things that people would be familiar with? >>Yeah, that's a great question. So how do you get more secure with open source products? And the one thing look at, I'll just give you one example. Is mobility right? So, in mobile today, if you're pushing them, if you're setting a push notification to an Iowa, sir. An android device, It has a route through, like Google or Android. Right? And whatever app that you're using to send those notifications they're going to see you're going to see your notifications. They have to, right? So you just get encryption all that stuff in order to send to Google and Andrew, you have to send it on encrypted. And you know these applications are not there, not yours. They're owned by another organization. So how do you make that private how to make it secure? So with open source communication, you get the source code. It's an extreme case like we have you know, perhaps you can views, and it's really simple in turnkey. But in the if you want to go in the full privacy, most security you have the full source code. APS. You have the full source code to the system, including what pushes the messages to your APS, and you can compiling with your own certificates. And you can set up a system where you actually have complete privacy and no third party can actually get your information. And why enterprises in many cases want that extreme privacy is because when you're doing incident response and you have information about a vulnerability or breach that could really upset many, many critical systems. If that information leaked out, you really can't. Many people don't want ever to touch 1/3 party. So that's one example of how open source lets you have that privacy and security, because you because you control everything >>all right, what we threw a little bit the speeds and feeds. How many employees do you have? How many did you share? How many customers you have, where you are with funding? >>So where we are funding is, you know, last year we announced a 20 million Siri's A and A 50 million Siri's be who went from about 40 folks the beginning the aired about 100 a t end of the year. We got over 1000 people that contribute to matter most, and what you'll find is what you'll find is every sort of get lab on the bus installations. Gonna have a matter most is gonna have the ability to sort of turn on matter most so very broad reach. It's sort of like one step away. There's lots of customers. You can see it. Get lab commit that are running matter. Most get lab together, so customers are going to include Hey, there's the I T K and Agriculture that's got six times faster deployments running. Get lab in Madame's together, you've got world line. It's got 3000 people in the system, so you've got a lot of so we're growing really quickly. And there's a lot of opportunity working with Get lab to bring get lab into mobile into sort of real times. Dev up scenarios. >>Definitely One of the themes we hear the at the show is that get labs really enabling the remote workforce, especially when you talk about the developers. It sounds like that's very much in line with what matters most is doing. >>Absolutely. Madam Mrs Moat. First, I don't actually know. We're probably in 20 plus countries, and it's it's a remote team. So we use use matter most to collaborate, and we use videoconferencing and issue tracking across a bunch of different systems. And, yeah, it's just it's remote. First, it's how it's how we work. It's very natural. >>Yeah, it just give us a little bit of the inside. How do you make sure, as a CEO that you, you know, have the culture and getting everyone on the same page when many of them, you know, you're not seeing them regularly? Some of them you've probably never met in person, so >>that's a great question. So how do you sort of maintain that culture 11? The concert that get lips pioneered is a continent boring solutions, and it's something that we've taken on as well. What's the most boring solution to preserve culture and to scale? And it's really do what get labs doing right? So get love's hand, looked up. Get lab dot com. We've got handbook that matter most dot com. It's really writing down all the things that how we operate, what our culture is and what are values are so that every person that onboard is gonna get the same experience, right? And then what happens is people think that if you're building, you're gonna have stronger culture because, you know, sort of like, you know, absorbing things. What actually happens is it's this little broken telephone and starts echoing out, and it's opposed to going one source of truth. It's everyone's interpretation. We have a handbook and you're forced to write things down. It's a very unnatural act, and when you force people to write things down, then you get that consistency and every we can go to a source of truth and say, like, This is the way we operate. >>2019 was an interesting year for open source. There were certain companies that were changing their models as toe how they do things. You started it open source to be able to get, you know, direct feedback. But how do you position and talk to people about you know, the role of open source on still being ableto have a business around that >>so open source is, I think there's a generation of open source cos there's three ways you can really make money from open source, right? You can host software, you can provide support, and service is where you can do licensing, which is an open core model. When you see his categories of companies like allowed, you see categories like elastic like Hash corporate Terra Form involved with Get Lab that have chosen the open core model. And this is really becoming sort of a standard on what we do is we fall that standard, and we know that it supports public companies and supports companies with hyper growth like get Lab. So it's a very it's becoming a model that I'm actually quite familiar to the market, and what we see is this this sort of generation, this sort of movement of okay, there was operating systems Windows Circle. Now there's now there's more servers running Lennix than Windows Server. On Azure, you seen virtual ization technology. You've seen databases all sort of go the open source way and we see that it's a natural progression of collaboration. So it's really like we believe collaboration will go the open source way we believe leading the way to do that is through open core because you can generate a sustainable, scalable business that's going to give enterprises the confidence to invest in the right platform. >>All right, in what's on deck for matter most in 2020. >>It's really we would definitely want to work with. Get lab a lot more. We really want to go from this concept of concurrent Dev ops that get labs really champion to say Real time de Bob's. So we've got Dev ops in the world that's taking months and weeks of cycle times. And bring that down to minutes. We want to take you know, all your processes that take hours and take it down to seconds. So what really people, developers air sort of clamoring for a lot is like, Well, how do we get these if I'm regulated if I have a lot of customization needs? If I'm on premise, if I'm in a private network, how do I get to mobile? How do I get quicker interactions on? We really want to support that with instant response with deficit cock use cases and with really having a complete solution that could go from all your infrastructure in your data center, too. You know, that really important person walking through the airport. And that's that's how you speed cycle times and make Deb sec cops available anywhere. And you do it securely and in do it privately. >>All right, thanks so much for meeting with us. And great to hear about matter most. >>Well, thank you. Still >>all right. Be sure to check out the cube dot net for all the coverage that we will have throughout 2020 I'm still minimum. And thanks for watching the cue.

>> From the Hard Rock Hotel in Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering HoshoCon 2018. Brought to you by Hosho. >> Over and welcome back to our live coverage here in Las Vegas for HoshoCon. I'm John Furrier host of theCUBE. The first inaugural conference on security in the blockchain security is obviously not new to the blockchain It's number one concern. Crypto is crypto, decentralized networks is what people want. Security is the only thing that matters, if you haven't been hacked, then you should know we're being hacked. This is theCUBE coverage here in Las Vegas for HoshoCon. I'm John Furrier with Steven Sprague CEO of Rivetz, who's a security and an entrepreneur I've known for almost 20 years now he has been at this all through multiple ways of innovation, multiple security paradigm stacks, not new the problem, great time for you, Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you for having me. >> So I've known you and knowing your father as well for almost 25 plus years, you have been at this in one form or another with security and the waves are different, I mean there's different the web wave there's different architectures I mean people call it internet 3.0 whatever they're just different evolutionary steps, now is the killer time because we're seeing the most action. You got web, internet, mobile, global, new economics, new money the stakes are higher it's not not just like some isolated box, you got cloud. This is the time to harvest the work you've been doing, give us an overview. >> Absolutely you know I've been at this my whole career, I started down this path in 1990. Doing digital rights management micro transactions and video games and was part of the formation that Trusted Computing group in the 2000s and helped shipped 1.4 billion PCs with hardware security on the motherboard of the PC that still out there today. Started with started Rivets in 2013 to really go after, how do we enable the hardware security and mobile devices? And just about instantaneously ran into the blockchain and at my first Bitcoin conference, which was the Miami Bitcoin conference about a half an hour into it, it dawned on me two things. One, we were talking a lot about crypto but nobody was talking about cybersecurity and there's a gap between those just because we talk crypto all the time doesn't mean that we know what we're doing in cyber and the other one that was true as, oh my God, I've been looking for this for the last 10 years, which is how do we enable the user to own their own keys? And I don't mean like single keys on each device. I mean, the root key that controls all the other keys on all their devices. This is a super interesting space, we're just the very beginning of it in some ways the Bitcoin side the sort of value or or money side is the demo, the real opportunity is, this is the infrastructure that's going to replace how we do normal enterprise computing. >> Yeah. >> And the end of PC computing, we're about to have a new paradigm, blockchain-- >> I agree with you as an infrastructure shift over because the efficiencies that are gained and the disruption around what's not efficient, whether it's venture capital or infrastructure, IoT, whatever the supply chain or the decentralized way is the way to make it efficient, so it's an opportunity. Every entrepreneur that I know that is licking their chops going, wow, I can come in here and and create value. The mainstream adoptions around this complexity around use to your point, and then the fear of being hacked the cybersecurity piece whether it's for money, or a a hostile actor. >> But think of it in a different way. Security, nobody cares about security, nobody buys security, nobody wants security, security is UI. So if I asked you what your favorite multi factor authentication experience, you think like fingerprints and all this kind of stuff, it's not true, the send button is your favorite one, dial the number and push then and it just works. It works everywhere in the world works every time you've taught mom how to use it and the kids how to use it. It's simple, so why, so we would never use like, dial the number and we're going to use AI and big data to determine whether your phone is in the right condition to complete the call. And then a message is going to come up and say, would you please breathe deeply and calm down, because you're clearly agitated, I can't complete your call for you at this time. (laughing) Like, you've never used that phone, so why are we going to use that for the rest of our enterprise? >> I just sent you a pin number on your phone that you can't use before you can make the call. Again, I agree, it should be under the wire. It should be transparent security should be native, always on. >> That's right. >> And that's what you're getting at, okay. In your opinion, where are we in the progress because again, I think this connects the dots for your career, what you've worked on the itch you've been scratching in security because you have the perfect storm, you have full mobility penetration, you have commerce on top of it, and you have full global connectedness those three things alone make a-- >> And we have decentralization, so the thing that's important in blockchain is it's important remember, while the data on a chain is immutable, we know we can seal inside a little envelope a message and sign it and we write it to a chain it never changes. What we don't know is whether the data written to the chain was intended so all the information on all the blockchains is fake news. It's important to understand that we, if we take a blockchain to court try and prove something, all we can prove with the data hasn't changed. I have absolutely no idea whether your private key was written on the bathroom wall or stored in Fort Knox. And so if you try and record something on chain, your defense is always ah somebody stole my private key. Or if I'm trying to defend that you didn't do it on chain, somebody stole his private key, so actually the date on the chain is fake. It's real it was signed by a private key, but we have no knowledge to the quality of the private key and if you told the blockchain community that we got to go get your Windows log files to see whether or not your key was compromised at the time and the windows log files are the way we secure all blockchains. We're not going to get there, so the problem is-- >> That's a roadblock for sure, no doubt. >> Yeah, so the problem is that blockchains, are decentralized therefore, they're censorship proof. All of network security is censorship, therefore, blockchain is network security proof. Oops. So everything we spent in the last trillion dollars in cyber security doesn't work on blockchain Unless I run private chains, all a private chain is running inside the enterprise security while using all Juniper firewalls to secure your chain. That's not what we're talking about, We're talking about a decentralized solution. >> So match the security for pro posture for the architecture that you're working on. >> So we are going to have to do for the first time something that's crazy, we're going to have to do security commerce, which is when we form an instruction 'cause blockchains aren't authentication either, this isn't about logging into a node, getting a web page and filling out a form, no this is about sending an instruction. So, a blockchain instruction, a nuclear launch code, an e-commerce transaction, an IoT instruction like turn the lights on to 50% are all the same thing, it's an instruction based paradigm so it's not only about protecting the key but also the protection of the instruction that tells the system what to do and so in order to do that, the device that creates the instruction has to be a known device. Today we run our whole world, all our critical infrastructure, everything on unknown compute. When you turn this machine on, you didn't check to see it wasn't run by the North Koreans and you can't tell. >> Yeah, they could be in there, they probably are. >> Absolutely, more so than you would want to know. >> So what whereas the answer on this so get to the, cut to the chase here in your opinion, as the people figure out okay, we have all this great hardware that was built for a certain generation, now I'm using it as mission critical in my life, it's integrated to my lifestyle with my watch, my computer, my phone, now my in house Siri, portal, Facebook thing. >> So we need to get away from Apple's embracing of the CompuServe model, where you have a mobile phone that is a terminal, when you log into apps and your identity is based on your login to your phone. We don't actually check to see if the phone is really your phone. And we need to move to the concept of mobile, where it's a device identity network where services are delivered, not based on the username and password, but based on the identity of the device and really, ultimately, we need to get to what looks like an IoT network, which is a device identity network with messaging as the primary protocol. So secure messages sent. Fundamentally, we need to demote the importance of user authentication and promote the importance of device identity, so that I have a known device and a known condition with known controls that is producing the instructions that are sent to the chain. Ideally, you'd like in every chain, a second hash. And that second hash represents a manifest of controls that were in place, so I checked to see I was in the building, I checked to see who's still an employee, I checked to see my devices working properly, I check to see the trust infrastructure in the hardware of my devices working properly, and that gives me a hash I can write that to chain with the same immutable transaction, now I can prove that John's device in this condition with these controls wrote this transaction. >> Authentication powered the last architecture blockchain to your point about being you know, you don't know what's on the data needs to have an identity model for the signatures. >> For the robot. >> For the robot. >> For the robot. So some people like oh my god, but what if I lose my phone and the most important thing is you notice. If I steal your private keys you don't notice I still your phone like I just touch your phone. It makes you feel nervous, >> Yeah. (laughing) It's a very, but that's 100,000 years. >> I know when I leave my phone home I turn around soon as am three feet the driveway I'm like, okay, go back, get the phone. >> And so that's cyber security training it starts when you're 18 months old, when somebody gives you an important object you're not supposed to forget places like heaven forbid you remove the fuzzy rabbit from the three year old, you can lose an arm, right. So that model buying device, the good news is the trusted computing standards of the world have given us embedded hardware security in the chip sets as a standard capability in every ARM processor. Now in every Intel processor, we can turn these capabilities that have been deployed in these devices. We turn them on, provide an effective hardware based wallet for all of crypto. >> How does the hardware wallet work in your vision? Because I think most people generally and me included would say, look I love crypto but I'm busy got my four kids, two are in college, two or in high school and running around you're running around, bottom line is I got my key, my cold storage, I get keys everywhere, I forgot where I put my damn keys where's my key anyway I ended up writing and I post it. Who knows? >> I want to believe your keys are your collection of devices. So we've actually just done a recent relationship with Telefonica we showed two weeks ago, a dual Root of Trust handset, so half of your key is protected by the SIM architecture in your phone, half of your key is protected by the manufactured ARM processor in your, in your handset. So I have two separate routes of trust. I'm not trusting the carrier, I'm not trusting the manufacturer, they have to work in cooperation, the owner owns the keys, then I want to backup those keys. So why not, now that I have multiple routes of trust in my device, they can talk to my other devices, So we think of your household of devices as your key, not your single super phone. So every time I make a new wallet, you're right. You're running around, you didn't think about it, You don't want to write down 12 words, you're out at Starbucks, you shouldn't be writing the 12 words down on the surveillance camera at Starbucks. That would be a bad plan, Instead, you want your device to just communicate out to your other devices. So imagine in the future I lose my phone I can shut it off by calling my carrier and then I want to Make a new phone, maybe I've got to go like push a button in my Tesla push a button on my smart refrigerator. And my wife has to push a button or my girlfriend, or whatever the complications we all have. (laughing) And that's what allows me to recreate, not just my blockchain keys, but my Marriott keys, my car keys, my refrigerator keys, my these keys and we're going to have lots of keys for all this stuff. >> And the hardware is key in your opinion, got to have the hardware. >> Right, the reason why you have hardware is because, we can measure that the hardware hasn't changed so we can have a hardware Root of Trust, something that we know is anchored in silicon, in iron and then, or really in copper, and then from that we can build a stack that says we know this hasn't changed because if it's cast in the ground now we can build up from there each step and know that this measured environment is running properly. >> So people want be concerned, obviously Bloomberg had a story this week about China putting a mod chip on super micro boxes that's hardware. How do you talk to that, because I'm now saying, hey, I love the Root of Trust concept you guys are awesome, great job, but what about being hacked by someone else-- >> Well let's assume hacks continue on in time, I think the ultimate disinfectant in this is identity of the device, so give me a list of where 100% of those computers are. And are they in any critical systems that you have? So you're running DHS, and you've got 1.2 million servers across your network? Can you tell me 100% of the machines, that have that capability on them? Now that you know that model 45 had that. So we have an example for this VIN numbers in cars have been a great example of how we've improved the quality of cars, not that we aren't stupid humans and we build stuff that breaks or doesn't work and people die, we just want to know, that if he dies in his car that I don't want to drive the same car he drove without fixing whatever it is they're broken your car. >> So unique ID for the car, an asset. >> Yeah. And so tracking that, yep, we have it for lots of things. We don't have it for PCs, if you ask the average organization, please give me a list of the software that runs your corporation, they have no idea. >> Yeah, and the same thing with data to the GDPR thing, all these regulations, >> Right, because all, so GDPR is a great example of where now I need to prove I had controls in place in order to show that my data is properly-- >> They didn't know they had a server out there. >> I don't want to audit once a year, I want to check every time I do a transaction, was the person and employee did they have data rest in their machine, did they. So we can use the concepts of GDPR regulation to press this idea that I've provable controls at a transactional level for every instruction that's done. I want to know that I have known compute, if you had to write policy for the federal government, it's only known computers connected to sensitive networks and data. That doesn't require rocket science to understand. It's like, don't hook anonymous unknown computers you picked up out in the parking lot and tie them to the nuclear launch codes, that would be a bad plan. Like, let's start with at least machines we know and that are running software we know and that we've tested them so that we know they're running what we expect and they're working correctly, then let's use them for critical systems. So let's talk about the, and want to just finish up this segment on looking at what you're saying, which is a whole new operating model is coming really fast. The old model that's being operate is run by huge companies, Apple, Amazon, IT departments all around the world, governments, so there's going to be some resistance is going to have to be some change, that change is going to be disruptive. How do you see it playing out, you see people waking up going it's inevitable or you see a train wreck or collision. >> Now I think we have to create a transition. I spent a decade trying to create the train wreck and that didn't work very well, we shipped the technology and every PC. What we've done here is we're making it possible for you measure the integrity of a device in a mobile phone, and then you can hold keys in it. But I can apply policies or rules to those keys and those policies can talk to all of my old external systems. So I can ask all my network security stack, Where is this device, is this person an employee? Is my organization feeling good today, before I let you use the key. >> You bring program ability and state into-- >> Right, it's like you drag along the whole network security stack, and all their API controls and their SIEMs and let's hook Watson up and watch the whole network and apply that as a rule to a case. So now I can sit in Starbucks, and my device checks to see my organization's good, and then logs me into Gmail. I didn't have to tell Gmail to ask whether I was an employee, so I can have a mobile phone that says only log on if you're on the nuclear submarine and it'll work and I don't have to tell GitHub that check to see whether he's on a nuclear submarine. They just have to know that this two factor authentication is external, what's making that possible is that two factor authentication and all the services is fundamentally device registration, and as we mature that as the industry matures, those standards it provides the vehicle for all the services to incorporate a device component to the authentication strategy and then we can engage the robot to make that device smarter. >> Robot being the machine. >> Our device. >> Great to have you on, give the quick plug, what's going on Rivets real give us a quick. >> So Rivets is a fun company going after building these tools, we have a great partnership with Telefonica, we're extending it to other carriers as well. And our mission here is to bring the next billion people the blockchain by giving them a hardware based wallet for crypto, for IoT, for cloud in 100% of the mobile devices that are shipped and use the carriers as a mechanism to deliver that to us. >> You bring value that carries you also help the users make that usability peace secure. If you can pull that off, man I'd have a parade on Main Street for you. We need that. >> We desperately need this. We are so ready for our digital life to become simpler and safer for the user, And really for the services, it allows them to have more valuable data. So it's the combination of those two things, it's a win both for the consumer and for the services. >> Well, let's hope it can be a seamless transition rather than a train wreck collision. I'm John Furrier we here at talking security at Hoshocon, the inaugural blockchain secure, the first blockchain security conference am here with Steven Sprague CEO Rivets, hot, hot company in the space with many, many years experience. Time is ripe, right now the time is perfect for you. Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for coming on, we're back with more after this short break. (electronic music)

[Music] from San Francisco it's the covering Red Hat summit 2018 brought to you by Red Hat everyone welcome back is the cubes live coverage here in San Francisco Red Hat summit 2018 I'm Sean furry co-host of the cube with my coasts analyst this week John Troyer who's the co-founder of tech reckoning advisory and Community Development firm our next guess is red hash Balakrishnan is the general manager of OpenStack for Red Hat welcome to the cube good to see you ready to be here so OpenStack is very hot obviously with the with the with the trends we've been covering from day one been phenomenal to watch that grow and change but with kubernetes you seeing cloud native to robust communities you got application developers and you got under the hood infrastructure so congratulations and you know what's what's the impact of that what is how is OpenStack impacted by the cloud native trend and what is Red Hat doing they're the best epidermis ation of that is openshift on OpenStack if you had caught the keynotes earlier today there was a demo that we did whereby they were spawning open shifts on bare metal using OpenStack and then you run open shift on power that's what we kind of see as the normed implementation for customers looking to get - I want an open infrastructure on Prem which is OpenStack and then eventually want to get to a multi cloud application platform on top of it that makes up the hybrid cloud right so it's a essential ingredient to the hybrid cloud that customers that are trying to get to and open shifts role in this is what I'm assuming we are asked about openshift ownerships will be multi cloud from a application platform perspective right so OpenStack is all about the infrastructure so as long as you're worrying about info or deployment management lifecycle that's going to be openstax remet once you're thinking about applications themselves the packaging of it the delivery of it and the lifecycle of it then you're in openshift land so how do you bring both these things together in a way that is easier simpler and long-standing is the opportunity and the challenge in front of us so the good news is customers are already taking us there and there's a lot of production workflow is happening on OpenStack but I got to ask the question that someone might ask who hasn't been paying attention in a year or so it was thick hey OpenStack good remember that was what's new with OpenStack what would you say that person if they asked you that question about what's new with OpenStack the answer would be something along the lines of boring is the new normal right we have taken the excitement out of OpenStack you know the conversations are on containers so OpenStack has now become the open infrastructure that customers can bring in with confidence right so that's kind of the boring Linux story but you know what that's what we thrive on right our job as reddit is to make sure that we take away the complexities involved in open source innovation and make it easy for production deployment right so that's what we're doing with OpenStack too and I'm glad that in five years we've been able to get here I definitely I think along with boring gos clarity right last year the cube was that OpenStack summit will be there again in two weeks so with you and I enjoy seeing you again for it the last year there was a lot of you know containers versus there was some confusion like where people got sorted out in their head oh this is the infrastructure layer and then this is the a play I think now people have gotten it sorted out in their head open open shipped on OpenStack very clear message so a meaning of the community in two weeks in any comments on the growth of the open OpenStack community the end users that are there the the depth of experience it seemed like last year was great everywhere for OpenStack on the edge it ended you know set top devices and pull top devices all the way to OpenStack in in private data centers and and for various security or logistical reasons where is OpenStack today yeah I think that he phrased would be workload optimization so OpenStack has now evolved to become optimized for various workloads so NFV was a workload that people were talking about now people are in when customers are in production across the globe you know beat Verizon or the some of the largest telcos that we have in any and a pack as well the fact that you can actually transform the network using OpenStack has become real today now the conversation is going from core of the data center to the edge which is radio networks so the fact that you can have a unified fabric which can transcend from data center all the way to a radio and that can be OpenStack is a you know great testament to the fact that a community has rallied around OpenStack and you know delivering on features that customers are demanding pouring is the new normal of that is boring implies reliable no-drama clean you know working if you had to kind of put a priority in a list of the top things just that it are still being worked on I see the job is never done with infrastructure always evolving about DevOps certainly shows that with programmability what are the key areas still on the table for OpenStack that are that are key discussion points where there's still innovation to be done and built upon I think the first one is it's like going from a car to a self-driving car how can we get that infrastructure to autonomously manage itself we were talking about network earlier even in that context how do you get to a implementation of OpenStack that can self manage itself so there's a huge opportunity to make sure that the tooling gets richer to be able to not just deploy manage but fine-tune the infrastructure itself as we go along so clearly you know you can call it AI machine learning implementation you on OpenStack to make sure that the benefit is occurring to the administrator that's an opportunity area the second thing is the containers and OpenStack that we taught touched upon earlier OpenShift on OpenStack in many ways is going to be the cookie cutter that we're gonna see everywhere there's going to be private cloud if you've got a private cloud it's gotta be an open shift or on OpenStack and if it's not I would like to know why right it's a it becomes a de-facto standard you start to have and they enablement skills training for a few folks as you talk to the IT consumer right the the IT admins out there you know what's the message in terms of upskilling and managing say an OpenStack installation and and what does Red Hat doing to help them come along yeah so those who are comfortable with Braille Linux skills are able to graduate easily over to OpenStack as well so we've been nationally focused on making sure that we are training the loyal Linux installed based customers and with the addition of the fact that now the learnings offerings that we have are not product specific but more at the level of the individual can get a subscription for all the products that reddit has you could get learning access to learning so that does help make sure that people are able to graduate or evolve from being able to manage Linux to manage a cloud and the and face the brave new world of hybrid cloud that's happening in front of our eyes but let's talk about the customer conversations you're having as the general manager of the stack red hat what what are the what's the nature of the conversations are they talking about high availability performance or is it more under the hood about open shift and containers or they range across the board depending upon the use cases whose they do range but the higher or the bit is that applications is where the focuses well closes where the focus is so the infrastructure in many ways needs to get out of the way to make sure that the applications can be moving from the speed of thought to execution right so that's where the customer conversations are going so which is kind of ties back to the boring is the new normal as well so if we can make sure that OpenStack is boring enough that all the energy is focused on developing applications that are needed for the enterprise then I think the job is done self-driving OpenStack it means when applications are just running and that self-healing concepts you were talking about automation is happening exactly that's the opportunity in front of us so you know it's by N's code by code we will get there I think I love the demo this morning which showed that off right bare metal stacks sitting there on stage from different vendors right actually you're the you know OpenStack is the infrastructure layer so it's it's out there with servers from Dell and HP II and others right and then booting up and then the demo with the with Amadeus showing you know OpenStack and public clouds with openshift all on top also showed how it fit into this whole multi cloud stack is it is it challenging to to be the layer with with the hardware hardware heterogeneous enough at this point that OpenStack can handle it are there any issues they're working with different OEMs and if you look at the history of red add that's what we've done right so the rel became rel because of the fact that we were able to abstract multi various innovation that was happening at the so being able to bring that for OpenStack is like we've got you know that's the right to swipe the you know employee card if you will right so I think the game is going back to what you were only talking about the game is evolving to now that you have the infrastructure which abstracts the compute storage networking etc how do you make sure that the capacity that you've created it's applied to where the need is most right for example if you're a telco and if you're enabling Phi G IOT you want to make sure that the capacity is closest to where the customer fool is right so being able to react to customer needs or you know the customers customers needs around where the capacity has to be for infrastructure is the programmability part that we've you know we can enable right so that's a fascinating place to get into I know you are technology users yourself right so clearly you can relate to the fact that if you can make available just enough technology for the right use case then I think we have a winner at hand yeah and taking as you said taking the complexity out of it also means automating away some of those administrative roles and moving to the operational piece of it which developers want to just run their code on it kind of makes things go a little faster and and so ok so I get that and I but I got to ask the question that's more Redhead specific that you could weigh in on this because this is a real legacy question around red hats business model you guys have been very strong with rel the the the record speaks for itself in terms of warranty and and serviceability you guys give like I mean how many years is it now like a zillion years that support for rel OpenStack is boring is Red Hat bringing that level of support now how many years because if I use it I'm gonna need to have support what's the Red Hat current model on support in terms of versioning xand the things that you guys do with customers thank you for bringing that up what have you been consciously doing is to make sure that we have lifecycle that is meeting two different customers segments that we are talking about one is customers who want to be with the latest and the greatest closer to the trunk so every six months there is an openstack released they want to be close enough they want to be consuming it but it's gotta be production ready in their environment the second set of customers are the ones who are saying hey look the infrastructure part needs to stay there cemented well and then every maybe a couple of years I'll take a real look at you know bringing in the new code to light up additional functionality or on storage or network etc so when you look at both the camps then the need is to have a dual life cycle so what we have done is with OpenStack platform 10 which is two years ago we have a up to five year lifecycle release so obvious that platform 10 was extensible up to five years and then every two releases from there 11 and 12 are for just one year alone and then we come back to again a major release which is OSP 13 which will be another five years I know it can be and they get the full Red Hat support that they're used to that's right so there are years that you're able to either stay at 10 or you could be the one who's going from 10 to 11 to 12 to 13 there are some customers were saying staying at 10 and then I won't go over to 13 and how do you do that we'll be a industry first and that's what we have been addressing from an engineering perspective is differentiated - I think that's a good selling point guy that's always a great thing about Red Hat you guys have good support give the customers confidence or not you guys aren't new to the enterprise and these kinds of customers so right - what are you doing here at the show red hat summit 2018 what's on your agenda what some of the hallway conversations you're hearing customer briefings obviously some of the keynote highlights were pretty impressive what going on for you it's a Volvo OpenShift on OpenStack that's where the current and the future is and it's not something that you have to wait for the reality is that when you're thinking about containers you might be starting very small but the reality is that you're going to have a reasonably sized farm that needs to power all the innovation that's going to happen in your organization so given that you need to have an infrastructure management solution thought through and implemented on day one itself so that's what OpenStack does so when you can roll out OpenStack and then on top of it bring in openshift then you not only have to you're not only taking care of today's needs but also as you scale and back to the point we were talking about moving the capacity where is needed you have a elastic infrastructure that can go where the workload is demanding the most attention so here's another question that might come up from when I asked you and you probably got this but I'll just bring it up anyway I'm a customer of OpenStack or someone kicking the tires learning about deploying up a stack I say ritesh what is all this cloud native stuff I see kubernetes out there what does that mean for me visa V OpenStack and all the efforts going on around kubernetes and above and the application pieces of the stack right let's say if you looked at the rear view mirror five years ago when we looked at cloud native as a contract the tendency was that hey look I need to be developing net new applications that's the only scenario where cloud native would be thought thought off now fast forward five years now what has happened is that cloud native and DevOps culture has become the default if you are a developer if you're not sort of in that ploughed native and DevOps then you are working on yesterday's problem in many ways so if digital transformation is urging organizations to drive - as cloud native applications then cloud native applications require an infrastructure that's fungible inelastic and that's how openshift on OpenStack again coming back to the point of that's the future that customers can build on today and moving forward so summarize I would say what I heard you saying periphery if I'm wrong open ship is a nice bridge layer or an up bridge layer but a connection point if you bet on open ship you're gonna have best of both worlds that that's a good summary and you gotta be you know betting on open first of all is the first order a bet that you should be making once you've bet on open then the question is you gotta bet on an infrastructure choice that's OpenStack and you gotta bet on an application platform choice that's open shift once you've got both of these I think then the question is what are you going to do with your spare time okay count all the cash you're making from all the savings but also choice is key you get all this choice and flexibility is a big upside I would imagine British thanks for coming on sharing your insight on the queue appreciate it thanks for letting us know what's going on and best of luck see you in Vancouver thank you for having okay so the cube live coverage here in San Francisco for Red Hat summit 2018 John four with John Troy you're more coverage after this short break

>> Announcer: Live from San Juan, Puerto Rico, it's theCUBE covering Blockchain Unbound. Brought to you buy Blockchain Industries. (upbeat music) >> Hello everyone, welcome to our exclusive coverage here in Puerto Rico with theCUBE on the ground for extensive two days of coverage for Blockchain Unbound in Puerto Rico where all the action is. It's a global conference where investors, entrepreneurs, thought leaders are all coming together to check out the future and set the agenda for Blockchain cryptocurrency and the decentralized internet. My next guest is John Hartigan, Executive Vice President in Intiva Health. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> So we were talking yesterday with Hash-Craft, CTO, you guys are part of that ecosystem, you guys are doing some of these things with health. Take a minute to explain what you guys are working on and your value proposition. >> Sure, so, Intiva Health is a career and credential management platform for physicians and all licensed medical professionals, and it streamlines and automates the credential management process that they have to go through every time that they either change positions or take on temporary work. And the Hash-Craft integration is allowing us to do instantaneous credential verification. Currently the state of affairs in the granting of privileges at a particular hospital or a facility can take literally weeks and in some cases months to complete. It's a very analog process, and with our integration with Hash-Craft, it will take seconds. >> So I was watching The New York Times today, an our Wall Street Journal article about verification of work history. This Blockchain is certainly a good example of that, but you're now getting it into more of health, what is the use case, what's the low hanging fruit that you guys are going after with your solution, and how does that evolve and how you see that evolving? >> Well, so, like I mentioned, the current verification process for the granting of privileges in a hospital setting, it is pretty much unchanged since the 1950s. The internet helps a lot but what you're talking about is somebody getting a credential paper file with 25 or 30 documents, and opening the file and picking up the phone and calling, and verifying the reputation and provenance of that particular physician. And it's truly a bureaucratic nightmare. It's red tape to the nth degree. And so that represents thousands and hundreds of thousands of hours and billions and billions of dollars in waste that could be reallocated to better patient care for example. >> The big use case we're seeing education, the workplace, but now healthcare. I see a perfect storm for innovation. Healthcare is not known for moving fast. >> John: Correct. >> HIPAA regulations in the past couple decades really put a damper on data sharing for privacy reasons. At that time it seemed like a good call. Has things like HIPAA, has the cloud computing model opened up new avenues for health because everyone wants great healthcare, but the data is stuck in some silo, database. >> Database, absolutely. >> That's the problem. >> That's absolutely a problem. >> So what's your reaction to that? >> So the approach that we're seeing a lot of organizations take is they are attempting to go after the EHRs and the EMRs, the Electronic Health Records for Patients. Of course that is something that needs to be fixed. However the medical space is truly influenced, the main stakeholders are the physicians. They sit on all the committees, they run all the budgets, they make the policy. So it's imperative that we address the physicians and get their buy into any kind of significant change. And what you're seeing now is states, as well as other organizations including the federal medical board, the Federal Association of Medical Boards, as well as the State of Illinois, Wyoming is here, as a matter of fact, representing, and they are all looking at Blockchain solutions for this verification problem for the medical space and remaining HIPAA compliant. >> Let's talk about security because hospitals and healthcare organizations have been really good targets for ransomware. >> John: Absolutely. >> And so we're seeing that mainly because their IT systems have been kind of ancient in some cases, but they're right in the target of, they don't have a lot of IT support. One of the things about Blockchain, it makes these things immutability. So is that something that is on the radar, and how is, I mean, not necessarily ransomware, that's one example of many security issues 'cause you got Internet of Things, you have a slew of cloud-edge technologies-- >> John: Yes. >> That are emerging, that opened up a surface area for a text. So what's your thoughts on that? >> So, as you mentioned, the traditional models have been layered on top of each other overtime. It's a patchwork situation. And because it's a patchwork situation, there is vulnerabilities all over the place, in facilities a lot of times. And besides that, the medical space is probably 10 years behind the times when it comes to technology, maybe five at a minimum. The model that we're using, you mentioned earlier that there are siloed information in these different facilities and hospitals, and that's absolutely true. So all of that information, you have facility A, facility B, facility C, they all have information on one particular provider or physician, but they don't talk to each, and that information is at different levels of accuracy and timeliness, you mentioned time and date stamps. So our model works where the information follows the provider, okay, it's all built around the provider themselves, and then the individual facilities can tap into that information, and also they can influence the information, they can update it. So everybody will then be talking to each other in an anonymous fashion around the one provider updating that information and making it the most accurate in the market, and we get away from the old SaaS model. >> Before we deep dive in here, I'm going to ask you one more thing around as you walked into healthcare providers and then the healthcare industry, you're a different breed, you have Blockchain, you got different solution, the conversation that they're having is, let's put a data leg out there, again, centralized data leg. ISPs are doing that. We know with cybersecurity, any time you have centralized data resources, it's just an easier target to hack. >> John: Correct. >> So it's clear that centralized is not going to be the ideal architecture, and this entire movement is based upon the principles of decentralized data. >> John: Yes. >> So what's it like when you go in there? It must be like, do you have like three heads to them? Or are you like a martian, you're like speaking some foreign language? I mean what is it like, are there people receptive to what you talk about? Talk about some of the experiences you had when you walked in the door and knocked on the front door and walked in and talked to them. >> So it is an interesting situation. When I speak with CEOs and when I speak with COOs, they understand that they're vulnerable when it comes to their data, and they understand how expensive it is if, for example, if they have a HIPAA breach, it's $10,000 per occurrence. Now that means if somebody texts patient information to somebody else on a normal phone, that $10,000 every time that happens, okay. And so if it's a major data breach, and a record of files if they have 50,000 files lost, I mean it could be a killing, a business killing event under the right circumstances. So I tried to educate them about-- >> Do they look at Blockchain as a solution there? Or are they scratching their heads, kicking the tires? What's the reaction? >> They're interested, they don't understand exactly how we can apply Blockchain, and we're trying to educate them as to how that is, we are capable of doing so. We're explaining about the vast security improvements by decentralizing the information, and they are receptive, they're just reticent because they're very, tend to be more conservative. So as these organizations like the State of Illinois and the Federal Association of Medical Boards, as they start to adopt the hospitals and facilities, they're starting to look in and oh say, "Hey, this is a real thing, "and there may be a real application here." >> Talk about your business, you market, you go on after obviously healthcare, product specifically in the business model, where are you guys? How big are you? Are you funded? Are you doing an ICO? How are you using token economics? How is it working? Give us a status on the company. >> Sure, so, we've been in business for approximately two years. We're a funded startup out of Austin, Texas. We are born actually out of a practice management company which is an important point because a technology company trying to solve this problem would really struggle because there is a lot of bureaucracy, there's a lot of nuance in how the system operates because it is evolved overtime. So that gives us a very significant advantage. We have an operating platform that has been out for a little over a year now, and we have thousands and thousands of physicians and other licensed medical professionals that use the platform now. >> Are they paying customers or are they just users? >> No, so the model works like this, it's free to the providers, it's also free to the facilities and medical groups, and so we allow that platform, that utility for them to use. How we monetize is we have other curated goods and services for the providers along their career journey. So, for example, continuing medical education. All providers are required to take so many units a year, and we have a very robust online library of CME. And we also have partnerships with medical malpractice organizations. >> So it's a premium model. You get them using the platform. >> Correct, that's right. >> Where does tokens fit in? Where does the cryptocurrency fit in? Do you have a token as a utility, obviously, it's a utility token. I mean explain the model. >> Correct. Yeah so we just announced last Friday. in South by Southwest that we are launching a token, a utility token, and it'll go on sale April 19th. And basically how it works is the providers, the physicians will earn tokens by taking actions in the platform that update their data for example, or if they look for a job on our platform, or if they do different tasks in the platform that improve the veracity of their data, and then they will be able to use those tokens to purchase the continuing medical education courses, travel courses, medical malpractice insurance, a number of different resources. >> Token will monitor behavior, engage behavior, and then a two-sided marketplace for clearing house. >> Exactly. >> How does the token go up in value? >> We have multiple partners that are involved, so the partners will be also purchasing advertising time, or it's a sponsorship model, so they'll be able to sponsor within the platform. So the more partners we bring in, the more providers we have, the value-- >> So suppliers, people who want to reach those guys. So >> Exactly. >> You get the coins, you see who's doing what. You get a vibe on who's active and then >> Exactly. That's a signal to potential people who want to buy coins. >> Yeah, and when we announced that we were doing this token, we had multiple partners that we have been in business with for the last two years, saying, "We want in, we want to do this, "we want to get involved." Oh another thing that we're doing with the token, we have an exclusive relationship with the National Osteoporosis Foundation, and we put forth to them that we would like to set them up with a crypto wallet so that they can accept donations, and then we would also match those donations up to a certain point that they receive in crypto. So we want to help our organizations, our not-for-profits by facilitating crypto acceptance. >> So talk about your relationship with Hash-Craft. It's two days old but it's been around for two years, they announced a couple days ago. It got good feedback, a lot of developers are using it. It's not a theorem but that's the compatibility to a theorem. You're betting on that platform. How long have you worked with these guys, and why the bet on Hash-Craft? >> So we were looking at Blockchain Technologies about two years ago because we realized, as you mentioned earlier, the security issues we have. We have to be very aware of the type of data that we're holding. So at the time though, there were significant issues with speed, significant issues with storage, and how it would work by actually putting a credential packet into Blockchain, and the technology frankly just wasn't there, and so we started looking for alternatives. Thankfully we were in Texas, and we happened to run into Hash-Craft, and they explained what they were doing, and we thought this must be too good to be true. It checked off all of our boxes. And we had multiple conversations about how we would actually execute an integration into our current platform with Hash-Craft. So we've been in talks with them for, I think, a little over five or six months, and we will actually, it looks like be one of the very first applications on the market integrating Hash-Craft. >> It's interesting, they don't really have a Blockchain-based solution, it's a DAG, a directed acyclic graphic model. Did that bother you guys? You don't care, it's plumbing. I mean does it matter? >> So actually the way that it is established, it has all of the benefits of Blockchain, and none of the fat and sugar, so to speak. I mean there are a number of things that they do that Blockchain-- >> You mean performance issues and security? >> Performance, speed is a big one, but also fairness on the date and timestamps, because with the verification system, you have to prove, you have to be able to prove and show that this date and timestamp is immutable, and that it has been established in a fair manner. And they have been able to solve that problem, where the Blockchain model, there is still some question about, if you have some bad actors in there, they can significantly influence the date and timestamps. And that was very significant for our model. >> Alright, well, congratulations. What's next for the company? What are you guys doing? What's the plan, what's the team like? Well, excited obviously. What's next? >> So we are going to be announcing some very big partnerships that we've established here late spring. I was hoping to do it here now, however we've-- >> Come on, break it out then. >> I would like to but I have to be careful. So we have some big partnerships we're going to be announcing, and of course we have the token sale coming up so there'll be a big-- >> Host: When is that sale happening? >> So it starts April 19th, and it'll run for about six weeks. >> What's the hard cap and soft cap? >> Yeah, we prefer not to talk about that, but let's say, soft cap, about 12 million. And we have some interested parties that want to do more, and so we're looking at what our best options are as far as setting the value to the token, and what the partnerships that are going to significantly impact it will be. >> Well, great job, congratulations. One of the big concerns to this market is scams versus legit, and you're starting to see clearly that this is a year, flight to quality, where real businesses are tokenizing for real reasons, to scale, provide value. You guys are a great example of that. Thanks for sharing that information. >> We're really excited, and it's very exciting to bring this to the healthcare space which is, as we said, conservative and somewhat traditional. And we believe that we will be setting the standard moving forward for primary source verification. >> And you can just summarize the main problem that you solve. >> Yeah, it is that analog primary source verification of the credential documents, and when our platform goes live, we will literally be putting hours of time a day, something like eight hours back into the providers' lives, and back to the money of that, associated with that back to their pockets, which we hope translates into better patient care. >> So verification trust and they save time. >> John: Absolutely. >> It's always a good thing when you can reduce the steps to do something, save time, make it easy. That's a business model of success. >> Absolutely and more secure. >> John Hatigan, who's with Intiva, Executive Vice President from Austin, Texas here in Puerto Rico for theCUBE coverage. Day Two of two days of live coverage here in Puerto Rico, I'm John Furrier with theCUBE host. We'll be back with more live coverage after this short break. (upbeat music)

(Latin music) >> Narrator: Live, from San Juan, Puerto Rico, it's theCUBE! Covering Blockchain Unbound. Brought to by Blockchain Industries. (Latin music) >> Welcome back to our exclusive Puerto Rico coverage, here, this is theCUBE for Blockchain Unbound, the future of blockchain cryptocurrency, the decentralized web, the future of society, the world, of work, et cetera, play, it's all happening right here, I'm reporting it, the global internet's coming together, my next guest is Fred Krueger, a founder and CEO of a new innovative approach called WorkCoin, the future of work, he's tackling. Fred, great to see you! >> Thank you very much, John. >> So we saw each other in Palo Alto at the D10e at the Four Seasons, caught up, we're Facebook friends, we're LinkedIn friends, just a quick shout out to you, I saw you livestreaming Brock Pierce's keynote today, which I thought was phenomenal. >> Yeah, it was a great keynote. >> Great work. >> And it's Pi Day. >> It's Pi Day? >> And I'm a mathematician, so, it's my day! (Fred laughs) >> It's geek day. >> It's geek day. >> All those nerds are celebrating. So, Fred, before we get into WorkCoin, I just want to get your thoughts on the Brock Pierce keynote, I took a video of it, with my shaky camera, but I thought the content was great. You have it up on Facebook on your feed, I just shared it, what was your takeaway of his message? I thought it was unedited, obviously, no New York Times spin here, no-- >> Well first of all, it's very authentic, I've known Brock 10 years, and, I think those of us who have known Brock a long time know that he's changed. He became very rich, and he's giving away, and he really means the best. It's completely from the heart, and, it's 100% real. >> Being in the media business, kind of by accident, and I'm not a media journalist by training, we're all about the data, we open our datas, everyone knows we share the free content. I saw the New York Times article about him, and I just saw it twisted, okay? The social justice warriors out there just aren't getting the kind of social justice that he's actually trying to do. So, you've known him for 10 years, I see as clear as day, when it's unfiltered, you say, here's a guy, who's eccentric, smart, rich now, paying it forward? >> Yep. >> I don't see anything wrong with that. >> Look, I think that the-- >> What is everyone missing? >> There's a little jealously, let's be honest, people resent a little bit, and I think part of it's the cryptocurrency world's fault. When your symbol of success is the Lamborghini, it's sort of like, this is the most garish, success-driven, money-oriented crowd, and it reminds me a little bit of the domain name kind of people. But Brock's ironically not at all that, so, he's got a-- >> If you look at the ad tech world, and the domain name world, 'cause they're all kind of tied together, I won't say underbelly, but fast and loose would be kind of the way I would describe it. >> Initially, yes, ad tech, right? So if you look at ad tech back in say, I don't know, 2003, 2004, it was like gunslingers, right? You wanted to by some impressions, you'd go to a guy, the guy'd be like, "I got some choice impressions, bro." >> I'll say a watch too while I'm at it. >> Yeah, exactly. (John laughs) That was the ad tech world, right? And that world was basically replaced by Google and Facebook, who now control 80% of the inventory, and it's pretty much, you go to a screen, it's all service and that's it. I don't know if that's going to be the case in cryptocurrencies, but right now, initially, you sort of have this, they're a Wild West phenomenon. >> Any time you got alpha geeks, and major infrastructure application developer shift happening, which is happening, you kind of look at these key inflection points, you need to kind of have a strong community self-policing policy, if you look at the original DNS days, 'cause you remember, I was there too, Jon Postel, rest in peace, godspeed, we all know what he did, Vint Cerf with TCP/IP, the core dudes, and gals, back then, they were tight! So any kind of new entrants that came in had to prove their worth. I won't say they were the most welcoming, 'cause they were nervous of people to infect the early formation, mostly they're guys, they're nerds. >> Right, so I think if you look back at domain names, back in the day, a lot of people don't know this, but Jon Postel actually kept the list of domain names in a text file, right? You had basically wanted a domain name, you called Jon up, and you said, "I'd like my name added to the DNS," and he could be like, "Okay, let me add it "to the text file." Again, these things all start in a very sort of anarchic way, and now-- >> But they get commercial. >> It gets commercial, and it gets-- >> SAIC, Network Solutions, in various time, we all know the history, ICANN, controlled by the Department of Commerce up until a certain point in time-- >> Uh, 'til about four years ago, really. >> So, this is moving so fast. You're a student of the industry, you're also doing a startup called WorkCoin, what is the formula for success, what is your strategy, what are you guys doing at WorkCoin, take a minute to explain what you guys are doing, your team, your approach-- >> So let's start with the problem, right? If you look at freelancing, right now, everybody knows that a lot of people freelance, and I don't think people understand how many people freelance. There are 57 million people in America who freelance. It's close to 50%, of us, don't actually have jobs, other than freelancing. And so, this is a slow moving train, but it's basically moving in the direction of more freelancers, and we're going to cross the 50% mark-- >> And that's only going to get bigger, because of virtual work, the global workforce, no boundaries-- >> Right, and so it's global phenomena, right? Freelancing is just going up, and up, and up. Now, you would think in this world, there would be something like Google where you could sit there, and go type patent attorney, and you could get 20 patent attorneys that would be competing for your business, and each one would have their price, and, you could just click, and hire a patent attorney, right? Is that the case? >> No. >> No, okay. >> I need a patent attorney. >> So, what if you have to hire a telegram manager for your telegram channel? Can you find those just by googling telegram manager, no. So basically-- >> The user expectation is different than the infrastructure can deliver it, that's what you're basically saying. >> No, what I'm saying is it should be that way, it is not that way, and the reason it's not that way is that basically, there's no economics to do that with credit cards, so, if you're building a marketplace where it's kind of these people are find each other, you need the economics to make sense. And when you're being charged 3.5% each way, plus you have to worry about chargebacks, buyer fraud, and everything else, you can't built a marketplace that's open and transparent. It's just not possible. And I realized six months ago, that with crypto, you actually could. Not that it's going to be necessarily easy, but, technically, it is possible. There's zero marginal cost, once I'm taking in crypto, I'm paying out crypto, in a sort of open marketplace where I can actually see the person, so I could hire John Furrier, not John F., right? >> But why don't you go to LinkedIn, this is what someone might say. >> Well, if you go to LinkedIn, first of all, the person there might not be in the market, probably is not in the market for a specific service, right? You can go there, then you need to message them. And you just say, "Hey, your profile looks great, "I noticed you're a patent attorney, "you want to file this patent for me?" And then you have to negotiate, it's not a transactional mechanism, right? >> It's a lot of steps. >> It's not transactional, right? So it's not click, buy, fund, engage, it just doesn't work that way. It's just such a big elephant in the room problem, that everybody has these problems, nobody can find these good freelancers. What do you end up doing? You end up going to Facebook, and you go, "Hey, does anybody know any good patent attorneys?" That's what you do. >> That's a bounty. >> Well, it's kind of, yeah. >> It's kind of a social bounty. "Hey hive, hey friends, does anyone know anything?" >> It's social proof, right? Which is another thing that's very important, because, if John, if you were-- >> Hold on, take a minute to explain what social proof is for the folks. >> Social proof is just the simple concept that it's a recommendation coming from somebody that you know, and trust. So, for example, I may not be interested in your video services, John, but I know you, and I am in the business of a graphic designer, and you're like, "Fred, I know this amazing graphic designer, "and she's relatively cheap." Okay, well that's probably good enough for me to at least start looking at her work, and going the next step. On the other hand, if I'm just looking at 100 graphic designers, I do not know. >> It's customized contextual data, around a specific transaction from a trusted source. So you socially, are connected to, or related. >> It, sort of, think about this, it doesn't even have to be a source that you know, it could be just a source that you know of, right? So, to use the Brock example again, Brock's probably not going to be selling his services on my platform, but what if he recommends somebody, people like giving the gift of recommendation. So Brock knows a lot of people, may not be doing as well as him, right? And he's like, "Well, this guy could be a fantastic guy "to hire as social media manager," for example. Helping out a guy that needs a little bit of work. >> And endorsement's a major thing. >> It is giving something, right? You're giving your own brand, by saying, "I stand behind this person." >> Alright, so tell me about where you are with WorkCoin, honestly, people might not know your background, if you check him out on LinkedIn, Fred Krueger, mathematician, Stanford PhD, well-educated, from a centralized organization, like Stanford, has a good reputation, you're a math guy, is there math involved? Obviously, Blockchain's math related, you got crypto, how are you guys building this out, share a little bit of, if you can, show a little leg on the tech-- >> The tech is sort of simple. So basically the way it is, is right now it's built in Google Cloud, but we have an interface where you can fund the thing, and so it's built, first of all, that's the first thing. We built it on web and mobile. And you can basically buy WorkCoins from the platform itself, using Ethereum, and also, we've integrated with Sensei, a different token. So, we can integrate with different tokens, so you're using these tokens to fund the coin, to fund your account, right? And then, once you have the tokens in your account, you can then buy services with them, right? And then the service provider, the minute they finish delivery of the service, to your expectation, they get the coin in their account, and then they can transfer that coin back into Ethereum, or Bitcoin, or whatever, to cash out. >> Okay, so wait, now that product's built, has the coins been issued? Are you guys doing an ICO? Are you raising money? >> So we're in the middle of an ICO-- >> Private? >> Private, only for now. So we've raised just under $4,000,000-- >> Great, congratulations. >> I have no idea if that's good or not-- >> Well, it's better than a zero (laughs). >> It's better than zero, right? It is better than zero, right? >> So there's interest obviously. >> Yeah, so look, we've got a lot of interest in our product, and I think part of the interest is it's very simple. A lot of people can go, "I think this thing makes sense." Now, does that mean we're going to be completely successful in taking over the world, I don't know. >> Well, I mean, you got some tailwinds at your back. One, the infrastructure in e-commerce, and the things that you're going after, are 20-year-old stacks. Number two, the business model, and expectation of the users, is shifting radically, and expectations are different, and there's no actual product that does it (laughs), so. >> So a lot of these ICOs, I think they're going to have technical problems actually building into the specification. 'Cause it's difficult, when you're dealing with the Blockchain, first of all, you're building on some movable platform, right? I met some people just today who are building on Hash-Craft, now, that's great, but Hash-Craft is like one day old, you know? So you're building on something that is one day old, and they've just announced their coin five minutes ago, you know. Again, that's great, but normally as a developer myself, I'm used to building on things that are years old, I mean, even something that's three years old is new. >> This momentum going on, that someone might want to tout Hash-Craft for is, 'cause it's got momentum-- >> It's got total momentum. >> They're betting on an ecosystem. But that brings up the other thing I want to get your thoughts on, because we've observed this at Polycon, we've been watching the industry landscape now, onto our 10th year, there's almost an ecosystem stake in the ground. The good news is, ecosystem's developing. You got entrepreneurs, you got projects, you got funding coming in, but as it's going to be a fight for the ecosystem, because you can't have zillion ecosystems, eventually they have to be-- >> Well, you know-- >> Or can you? >> Here's the problem, that everybody's focused on the plumbing right now, right, the infrastructure? But, what they should be focusing it on is the app. And I've a question for you, and I've asked this question to my advisors and investors, which are DNA Fund, and I say-- >> Let's see if I get it right, it's a test here on the spot, I love this, go. >> Okay, so here's the question, how many, in your wallet right now, on your mobile phone, show me how many Blockchain apps you have right now. >> Uh, zero, on my phone? >> Okay, zero. >> Well I have a burner phone for my other one, so (laughs). >> But on any phone, on any phone that you possess, how many Blockchain apps do you have on your phone? >> Wallet or apps? >> An app that you-- >> Zero. >> An app, other than a wallet, zero, right? Every single person I've asked in this conference has the same number, zero. Now, think about this, if you'd-- >> Actually, I have one. >> Uh, which one? >> It's called Cube Coin. >> Okay, there you go, Cube Coin. But, here's the problem, if you went to a normal-- >> Can I get WorkCoin right now? >> Yeah, well not right now, but I have it on my wallet. So for example, it's in test flight, but my point is I have a fully functional thing I can go buy services, use the coin, everything, in an app. I think this is one of the things-- >> So, hypothetically, if I had an application that was fully functional, with Blockchain, with cryptocurrency, with ERC 2 smart contracts, I would be ahead of the game? >> You would be ahead of the game. I mean, I think-- >> Great news, guys! >> And I think you absolutely are thinking the right thinking, because, everybody's just looking at the plumbing, and, look, I love EOS, but, it's sort of a new operating system, same as Hash-Craft, but you need apps to run on your thing-- >> First of all, I love chatting with you, you're super smart, folks out there, Fred is someone you should check out, you got great advisor potential. You're right on this, I want to test something out with you, I've been thinking about this for a while. If you think about the OSI model, OSI stack, for the younger kids, that was a key movement that generated the key standards in the stack for inner networking, and physical devices. So, it was started from the bottom up. The top of the stack actually never standardized, it became the presentation session layer, they differentiated, then eventually became front end. If you look at what's happening now, the top of the stack is really the ones that's standardizing, or standardizing with business logic, the bottom of the stack has many different versions of say, Blockchain, so the question is is that, it might be the world that will never have a TCP/IP moment, it might be that the business app logic will dictate to some sort of abstraction layer, down to programmable plumbing. You see this with cloud with DevOps. So the question is, do see it that way? I'm thinking out loud here, but when I'm seeing the trend here, it's just that, people who make the business logic decisions first, and nail those, that they're far more successful swapping out and hedging on the plumbing. >> Look, I think you mentioned the word alpha geek, and I think you've just defined yourself as an alpha geek. Let's just go in Denzel Washington's set in the movie Philadelphia, talk to me like I'm a five year old, okay? What is the problem you're solving? >> The app, you said it, it's the app! >> My point is like, everybody is walking around with apps, if the thing doesn't fit on an app, it's not solving any problem, that's the bottom line. I don't care whether you're-- >> You're validating the concept that all that matters is the app, the plumbing will sort itself out. >> I think so. >> Is that a dependency, or is it an interdependency? >> What do you need in a plumbing? Here's how I think you should think. Do I need 4,000 transactions per second? I would say, rarely, most people are not sitting there going, "I need to do 4,000 transactions per second." >> If you need that, you've already crossed the finish line, you probably want a proprietary solution. >> Just to put things in perspective, Bitcoin does 300,000 transactions per day. >> Well, why does Ripple work? Ripple works because they nailed the business model. >> I'll tell you what I think of Ripple-- >> What's your take? >> Why ripple works, I think all, and I'm not the first person to say this, but I think that, the thing that works right now, the core application of all this stuff, is money, right? That's the core thing. Now, if you're talking about documents on the Blockchain, is that going to be useful, perhaps. In a realist's say in the Blockchain, perhaps. Poetry on the Blockchain, maybe. Love on the Blockchain? Why ban it, you know? >> Hey, there's crypto-kiddies on the Blockchain, love is coming next. >> Love is coming next. But, the core killer app, the killer app, is money. It's paying people. That is the killer app of the Blockchain right now, okay? So, every single one of the things that's really successful is about paying people. So what is Bitcoin? Bitcoin is super great, for taking money, and moving it out of China, and into the United States. Or out of Nigeria, and into Switzerland, right? You want to take $100,000 out of Nigeria, and move it to Switzerland? Bitcoin is your answer. Now, you want to move money from bank A to bank B, Ripple is your answer, right? (John laughs) If you want to move money from Medellin, Colombia, that you use in narcos, Moneiro is probably your crypto of choice, you know? (John laughs) Business truly anonymous. And I think it's really about payment, right? And so, I look at WorkCoin as, what is the killer thing you're doing here, you're paying people. You're paying people for work, so, it's designed for that. That's so simple. >> The killer app is money, Miko Matsumura would say, open source money, that's his narrative, love that vision. Okay, if money's the killer app, the rest is all kind of window dressing around trying to race to-- >> I think it's the killer, it's the initial killer app. I think we need to get to the point where we all, not all of us, but where enough of us start transacting, with money, with digital money, and then after digital money, there will be other killer apps, right? It's sort of like, if you look at the internet, and again, I'm repeating somebody else's argument-- >> It's Fred Krueger's hierarchy of needs, money-- >> Money starts, right? >> Money is the baseline. >> The initial thing, what was the first thing of internet? I was on the internet before it was the internet. It was called the ARPANET, at Stanford, right? I don't know if you remember those days-- >> I do remember, yeah, I was in college. >> But the ARPANET, it was email, right? We had the first versions of email. And that was back in 1986. >> Email was the killer app for 15, 20 years. >> It was the killer app, right? And I think-- >> For 15 or 20 years. >> Absolutely, well before websites, you know? So I think, we got to solve money first. And I bless everybody who has got some other model, and maybe they're right, maybe notarization of documents on the internet is a-- >> There's going to be use cases for Blockchain, some obvious low-hanging fruit, but, that's not revolutionary, that's not game-changing, what is game-changing is the promise of a new decentralized infrastructure. >> Here's the great thing that's absolutely killer about what this whole world is, and this is why I'm very bullish, it's, if you look at the internet of transmitting value, from one node to another node, credit cards just do not do a very good job of that, right? So, you can't put a credit card inside a machine, very well, at all, right? It doesn't work! And very simple reason, why? Because you get those Amex fraud alerts. (John laughs) Now the machine, if he's paying another machine, the second machine doesn't know how to interpret the first machine's Amex fraud alerts. So, the machine has to pay in, the machine's something that's immutable. I'm paying you a little bit of token. The classic example is the self-driving car that pays the gas pump, 'cause it's a gas self-driving car, it pays it to fill up, and the gas pump may have to pay its landlord in rent, and all of this is done with tokens, right? With credit cards, that does not work. So it has to be tokens. >> Well, what credit cards did for other transactions a little bit simplifies your things, there's a whole 'nother wave coming, that just makes it easier and reduces the steps. >> It reduces the friction, and that's why I think, actually, the killer app's going to be marketplaces, because, if you look at a marketplace, whether it's a marketplace like ours, for freelancers, or your marketplace for virtual goods, and like wax, or whatever it is, right? I think marketplaces, where there's no friction, where once you've paid, it's in. There's no like, I want my money back. That is a killer app, it's an absolute killer app. I think we're going to see real massive consumer adoption with that, and that's ultimately, I think, that's what we need, because if it's all just business models, and people touting their 4,000 transactions a second, that's not going to fly. >> Well Fred, you have a great social graph, that's socially proved, you got a great credentials, in mathematics, PhD from Stanford, you reinvent nine, how many exits? >> Nine exits. >> Nine exits. You're reinventing freelancing on the Blockchain, you're an alpha geek, but you can also explain things to a five year old, great to have you on-- >> Thank you very much John. >> Talk about the WorkCoin, final word, get the plugin for WorkCoin, can people use it now, when is it going to be available-- >> Look, you can go check out our platform, as Miko said, Miko's an advisor, and Miko said, "Fred, think of it as a museum, "you can come visit the museum, "you're not going to see a zillion, "but you can do searches there, you can find people." The museum is not fully operational, right? You can come and check it out, you can take a look at the trains at the museum, the trains will finally operate once we're finished with our ICO, we can really turn the thing on, and everything will work, and what I'd like you to do, actually, you can follow our ICO, if you're not American, you can invest in our ICO-- >> WorkCoin dot-- >> Net. >> Workcoin.net >> Workcoin.net, and, really, at the end, if you have some skill that you can sell on the internet, you're a knowledge worker, you can do anything. List your skill for sale, right? And then, that's the first thing. If you're a student at home, maybe you can do research reports. I used to be a starving student at Stanford. I was mainly spending my time in the statistics department, if somebody said, "Fred, instead of grading "undergrad papers, we'll pay you money "to do statistical work for a company," I would be like, "That would be amazing!" Of course, nobody said that. >> And anyways, you could also have the ability to collaborate with some quickly, and do a smart contract, you could do some commerce, and get paid. >> And get paid for it! >> Hey, hey! >> How 'about that, so I just see-- >> Move from the TA's grading papers payroll, which is like peanuts-- >> And maybe make a little bit more doing something that's more relevant to my PhD. All I know is there's so many times where I've said, my math skills are getting rusty, and I was like, I'd really wish I could talk to somebody who knew something about this distribution, or, could help me-- >> And instantly, magically have them-- And I can't even find them! Like, I have no idea, I have no idea how I would go and find people at Stanford Institute, I would have no idea. So if I could type Stanford, statistics, and find 20 people there, or USC Statistics, imagine that, right? That could change the world-- >> That lowers the barriers, friction barriers, to-- >> Everybody could be hiring graduate students. >> Well it's not just hiring, collaborating too. >> Collaborating, yeah. >> Everything. >> And any question that you have, you know? >> Doctor doing cancer research, might want to find someone in China, or abroad, or in-- >> It's a worldwide thing, right? We have to get this platform so it's open, and so everybody kind of goes there, and it's like your identity on there, there's no real boundary to how we can get. Once we get started, I'm sure this'll snowball. >> Fred, I really appreciate you taking the time-- >> Thanks a lot for your time. >> And I love your mission, and, we support you, whatever you need, WorkCoin, we got to find people out there to collaborate with, otherwise you're going to get pushed fake news and fake data, best way to find it is through someone's profile on WorkCoin-- >> Thanks. >> Was looking forward to seeing the product, I'm John Furrier, here in Puerto Rico for Blockchain Unbound, Restart Week, a lot of great things happening, Brock Pierce on the keynote this morning really talking about his new venture fund, Restart, which is going to be committed 100% to Puerto Rico, this is where the action will be, we will be following this exclusive story, continuing, we'll be back with more, thanks for watching. (soothing electronic music)