(upbeat music) >> Hello everyone, and welcome to this Cube conversation. We're going to dig into some of the more specific and sometimes gory details of managing the nuances of database, database management systems. You know, it's a lot of fun to get it to the daily buzz of cloud and database competition and get a little snarky on Twitter, but there are a lot of mundane issues that you have to address to really do proper database sizing, capacity planning, and you know whether or not database consolidation makes sense. These are not trivial issues. And decades ago they spawned an entire role around the database administrator. They had to do the dirty work of database management so that users and customers would be satisfied. And while automation and cloud are changing that role, at the end of the day, somebody actually has to make the databases work in the cloud and make sure that the business doesn't feel any impact on the transition along the way. So on that note, we have with us Oracle senior director of product management for mission critical databases. He works in Juan Loaiza's group, Chris Craft, and Steve Zivanic whom we know well on the cube says this guy is the Jedi master when it comes to consolidating databases in the cloud. Nobody knows more on the face of the planet Earth. So we're really excited Chris, to have you inside the Cube. Welcome. >> Thanks, thanks Dave. >> That's a very humble thanks. So when it comes to running databases in the cloud can you explain the difference between sizing and capacity planning? Aren't they two sides of the same coin? >> Yeah, you know, they really are. It's like, you know sizing is really part of capacity to planning. It's really, I look at sizing as a one-time effort whereas capacity planning is more your ongoing. You perform sizing initially when the application is deployed. And then, then when you're changing platforms, like going from on-prem to the Cloud you're going to go through a sizing exercise 'cause you're looking at going to a new platform. That's more of a one-time effort, and then ongoing, you're looking at your capacity management over time. So yeah, they are very related so. >> Okay, thank you. So we're going to talk about database consolidation. A lot of people would say, look the cloud makes consolidating databases maybe not irrelevant, but maybe not the best strategy because I got all these different purpose-built databases. Why consolidate databases if they're already going to consolidate it in the cloud in one location? >> Yeah. So, so we're really talking about in in the cloud, you're running virtual machines but consolidation still applies on the virtual machines. So if you have a virtual machine that's dedicated to a database that database is that server, that virtual machine is going to be under utilized over time. So what we're doing with consolidation is running multiple databases within a virtual machine or what it, Oracle virtual cluster. We do everything on clusters. So multiple machines multiple databases within that will drive up the utilization and improve your cost structure. So it's a sizing it's it's absolutely critical on even in the cloud. >> Okay. But, but wouldn't it, I might say to that, wouldn't it be better to have each database have a dedicated VM? I mean, from a performance perspective, it doesn't try to make the database do too much affect performance. >> Yeah. It, so whenever, so we know historically that a database on a dedicated server back in the day that was a physical server, today it's a virtual machine. When you do that, your utilization will be in the range of 15 to 20%. And that's, you know very highly under utilized systems when you do that. So we don't need to isolate things onto dedicated virtual machines for a performance perspective. There are other ways that we can manage that we have resource management built into Oracle and the Oracle database. And then on Exadata we have an integrated IO resource management as well so we can deal with that different ways. >> Okay. So you're basically proposing that you're putting these databases onto a single VM and managing it accordingly. Is there additional details you can provide on that? >> So, you know, we don't put everything into you know, literally one, one VM. You want to have some isolation built in there, but see and take a more pragmatic approach. You know, like every single database in one VM that's the wrong way to go. Each database in a dedicated VM is also the other extreme, also the wrong way to go. So we're kind of right down the middle and be more pragmatic about it, and do some level of consolidation to drive up utilization. >> I remember when I first started following tech I was studying up on, you know kind of how disc drives work and so forth. And there was probably like I can't even remember what it was. It was like probably like 10 megabytes under an actuator. And people were saying, Oh my God, that's so much data. You, you got your blast radius is, is so big. You got to split that up. So it's the same concept, apply with availability. Some would say, there's a problem because you're consolidating all this data and you've got this blast radius that increases. How do you address that? >> And so, you know, redundancy. So we have redundancy at all levels. So if you look at a single, so we're talking about Exadata here, taught in an Exadata machine we can lose up to 24 disc drives out of 30. 30 machines with 36 disc drives, we can use 24 of those. So that'd be 12 per storage cell. You can lose two storage cells as 24 out of 36 drives so we can lose and keep on running. We can also, we also cluster, we also do clustering. So the database servers are clustered together for high availability. So we can take, we can suffer multiple simultaneous failures and keep on running without performance impact either. So it's, so recovery, we handle that in different ways. So it's, look at blast radius from a standpoint, you want some, some isolation for blast radius but we have physical failures is just not something that we're concerned with. >> Why do you deal with taking down a VM? Doesn't that normally mean there's going to be some kind of disruption? >> Oh, so you know, the, so Oracle database, you're talking about real application clusters on on Oracle database, on Exadata. We've got, we have a very fast detection of of failures and then resolution of the failure. So we're looking at a small blip in performance, you know we're looking at a few milliseconds to detect failure and then maybe up around three seconds to actually affect the failover. So the applications that are not getting disconnected, they continue operating in the, in that kind of condition. So that's kind of unique to the Exadata platform. And so, you know, in our cloud, we're running Exadata. We have this built in there. So we're, we're resilient to that type of failure, so. >> And sorry, you mentioned real application clusters. You're saying because you're running real application clusters that's how you're able to become more resilient? >> So yeah, so we have, so Oracle database real application clusters runs on top of a clustered virtual machines on Exadata. We have integration then optimizes the fail over times of that clustering. So it's, it's not the cluster same, it's the optimizations are only built into Exadata. So we have much much faster, much better tighter integration, so much more scalability because of that, that integration that we have. >> Can I run rack in other clouds? Can I put that into Amazon's cloud? >> So, so real application clusters requires two things. It's a, you require shared storage in a fast interconnect, a fast networking interconnecting. And those things just don't exist in the other clouds. We have those built into Exadata in our cloud. And we also, we also allow real application clusters in our relational database, our database cloud service offering as well. But it's, really the highest implementation of that is in Exadata. >> Well, of course I was tongue in cheek joking but this is, this is why, you know, I was listening to Arvind Krishna the other day in IBM Think. And he was saying only 25% of mission critical applications have moved into the cloud. I didn't think it's that high. I mean, but, but what you're doing is basically building a mission critical, you know, cloud or a cloud for mission critical databases. And that's, that's unique. I mean, I would expect other cloud vendors that eventually you know, are going to get there, but you're kind of starting with the hard stuff and working backwards. But, that is what I've always interpreted is unique to Oracle, but how does that affect cost? Isn't that more expensive? >> Actually, no. We're taking services that that start out at a very similar price point. And then we drive. So what we've seen from other customers that are running in like Amazon, for example, we see databases on dedicated virtual machines that run anywhere from 15 to 20% utilization. So what we do is, that low, low utilization, what we do is take that and triple that. So we run, so we run maybe 50% utilization. At that point we still have full redundancy, but we've now made the service one third of the cost. So we're starting at a third, we're starting at a very similar cost. And then we drive it to, you know three times a utilization. This is not crazy numbers. This is, you know, 50% is, is fine and retain the redundancy at that level as well. >> Got it, well so. >> What we've seen is about a third the cost. >> Really? Okay. Well, so, but, what about, like for instance, on AWS, couldn't I run this in a multi availability zone, running RDS or some other cloud database? >> So, so you can run a Multi-AZ environment like in in Amazon, for example, you can run locals. That's what we call local standby. If you do that, you're now instead of being one third, instead of being three times more expensive, you're now six times more expensive. Because that is another copy of the entire platform, the entire instance, the storage, everything on the other availability zone instead of being three times more, it's now six. >> Because you're essentially replicating everything in a brute force mode, right? >> Yeah. It's a data guard standby, local standby in another AZ, or what we call availability domain in our cloud. >> So let's maybe geek out a little bit. So, let's talk more about availability. You know, for years, I mean, I remember going back to reading about this stuff with tandem computers, you know, coincident failures. How are you dealing with those in today's modern world? >> So what we call simultaneous failures is, so we, we deal with that with redundancy in the system. So we have redundancy at all layers in the storage. Like I said earlier, we can take across, you know, two storage cells and each storage cell has a dozen drives. So that's 24 disc drives. That's eight flashcard failures simultaneously. And we keep on running no data loss, no loss of service. That's at the storage layer. We have multiple, multiple redundant networking switches at that, at the networking layer, the internal network. Then we go up into the database server. We then have redundancy across the nodes of a cluster. You have multiple virtual machines that comprise a virtual cluster. So it's at each and every level, we have redundancy. And then we drive the redundancy into the application using what's called application continuity. So the application connections have knowledge of the failure, failure modes of the database. They can follow to the surviving node, and continue operating. >> And you do this with math, you're doing some kind of magic bit slicing, or how do you do that? >> That, so that is that particular thing, application continuity, so technology that's been built into Oracle database since, since 12c, and that it's been around for quite a long time. And it allows the application to follow the rack cluster, any kind of issues with the rack cluster. We can drain connections off. It's very well-proven technology in, you know, prior to to proactive maintenance, we can drain connections over and then it will also handle a failure of a connection as well. And the application following that, yes. >> I learned from my old mainframe days and hanging around with David Floyer. It's always ask, what happens when something goes wrong and it's all about recovery. And you guys have the gold standard there. I mean, we've talked about this a lot. So you got Exadata. That's what is behind your Exadata cloud service, X8M I think you call it, and you've got autonomous database. I'm not great with model numbers, but, but talk about the way you can handle simultaneous failures. I mean, are there like triple redundancies that you've built in? >> Yeah. So everything what we do in our cloud is everything is triple redundancy by default. So we, you can suffer, that way we can suffer two failures and continue operating. So the, the other thing, so recovery, if you look at transaction recovery, when a failure occurs a transaction will flip that session, will flip to the machine that keeps running. It'll reposition all in the work that's in flight, any kind of inflight transactions, any in flight queries that are going on, reposition and continue operating. >> So you've essentially created like the old three site data centers, but you're in a single platform because you're synchronous. But, that same concept in a package. >> It's, you know, it's a lot of times you show a picture of an Exadata. It looks like a single box, but in the box there's some redundancy built in the box. And in fact, in the cloud it's actually across an entire aisle. So it's, we kind of obscure that a little bit, from your provisioning, you know, our database nodes and our storage cells and in the cloud but it's actually across an entire aisle of a dataset. >> Okay, and of course, that's within a synchronous location. Let's talk about disaster recovery, and what you're doing in that area, around Oracle Cloud What are my options there? What's different from other cloud providers we were talking earlier about, AZs, how are you different and what are you doing there? >> Yeah, so we, we talked earlier about the Multi-AZ deployment, what we call it availability domain, AD, so a little different terminology. But we can deploy another, another copy of the database into another availability domain, if you like. It's not often that you lose an entire AZ or AD, it's more, we're protecting from regional failures. So across another region. And that's where we look at, we really look at that as that technology, as a standby, as a data, disaster recovery solution not for HA. HA, we build HA into the machine itself. >> So you're saying, we were talking earlier about AZ, you're saying that's for HA versus DR. Is that, is that what you're contending? >> Yeah, like, you know again, pick on Amazon for a second here. Amazon uses a standby database. What we would normally use for disaster recovery, they're using that for availability. And you're looking at a few minutes of time to flip over to another AZ, whereas within an Exadata frame, we can flip over in milliseconds. We keep continue running. There is no loss of conductivity. And then we use the standby in another region for disaster. That's a true disaster solution. >> As opposed to incurring that penalty of latency, or whatever, to spin up the other resource. >> Right, right. >> Okay, so that's clear how kind of you guys address that, that challenge. Last question, maybe you could give us your take, again folks, coming out of Oracle's mouth, but what's the bottom line cost Delta based on your experience between your service and competitive services? I love these conversations because you're not afraid to talk about the competition, so bring it on. >> I've seen, so we've just based on what we've seen with customers deploying databases in Amazon, versus what, you know we've replaced that within, in our cloud service. We're seeing from just a list price perspective. Now, you know, we discount, I know Amazon discounts, but the only thing I can really speak to is list price perspective. It's about a third the cost. So we're talking about a more powerful platform, runs faster. We get these incredible, we haven't even talked about performance here. Talk about availability, performance where we're getting IO rates, IO latencies in the 19 microsecond range. Now with Exadata, that's going to be 50 times faster than what you get with these traditional cloud vendors. So much, much faster, and a third the cost. >> So talk about discounts, I mean, I know Oracle discounts, Oracle from list price, Oracle provides significant discounts. I'm not as familiar with your cloud pricing but I mean, Amazon's discounts are really in the form of like reserved instances. Is your pricing similar in that regard or different? I mean, if I'm just paying on demand, I'm paying through the nose. I presume it's same with you. If I, but if I buy in bulk getting a discount, is that what you mean by discount? Or is it more similar to the way you've traditionally discounted, you know large customers, the more you spend, the more you you get kind of thing. >> It's a, there's a discount structure. So it's, we don't have the same kind of lock-in like with reserved instance structure, but yeah, it's, there are discounts and that's going to be very customer specific. >> Right. >> So, but I think that the end result we're starting at, a three X differential on the price. >> But the reason I'm asking the question is that the stats you gave me are for list price, right? >> Yeah, yes, yeah. >> Okay, and sure, you're saying that at list price you're, you're less expensive. I, and again, my contention would be just by experiences that your discounts would be more aggressive traditionally in Oracle's traditional business. You know, I've done a lot of Oracle negotiation in my days. And if you're, you know, if you're a big customer you can get good deals. And again, I'm not as familiar with the cloud pricing, but still that's, that's good. If you're doing it on a list price basis, to me, that's a conservative statement if that makes any sense. >> Right, that's where it starts. We know that's where it's starting out. So I, you know, once you get into discounts, it's very customer specific. >> Right. >> We know the starting point is at three X differential. Before you do something in the Multi-AZ would be a six X differential, by the way, so. >> Yeah, okay. All right, Chris. Well, Hey, I appreciate you taking us through this, good stuff, and best of luck, good work. You know, you guys keep, I always say Oracle invest you guys spend a lot of money in RD and, and, you know you're quiet for a while in the cloud and all of a sudden you came out like you invented it. So good job! >> All right. >> All right, thanks. Thanks for coming on. All right. >> Thanks. >> Thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante for Cube conversations. We'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of IBM Think 2021. Brought to you by IBM. >> Hello, everyone. Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of IBM Think virtual 2021. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE. We're here with Kirsten Craft, who's the global head of business development and marketing at Prolifics. Kirsten, great to see you. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Thanks so much, John. It's great to be here. >> I love the fact that we're getting the content out there. We're still remote. Soon in real life's coming back, but what a time it's been in the past year and a half or so. A lot of change, a lot of action. You guys are in the middle of it here at IBM Think. Let's get into it. But first, take a minute to explain what you guys do at Prolifics, and your business model. >> Sure. So thanks, John. So Prolifics... We've been in business, actually, for over 40 years, which is pretty amazing when you think about technology and everything that's happened in 40 years. We are a global service provider. We've got over 1,000 people worldwide. And we are 100% focused on software, and almost 100% focused on IBM, right? Of course, nobody's focused on a single technology stack these days, so we work with our customers across many different products, but we've been with IBM for a very long time. When we look at our business model, when we talk with our clients, we find that organizations today, they've got really complex challenges, especially now, right, in what all is happening right now. They've got a lot of really interesting opportunities, as well as problems that they have to solve in front of them. And those types of situations, they can't just be addressed by just buying a product. And Prolifics' approach is we work with our clients to get really above the technology conversation, and to really understand what are they trying to accomplish, right? At the end of the day, why is this an important initiative for you? And we help them develop roadmaps, and then we help them get there. So of course we're selling technology along the way, and in that implementation path. So I would say from a business model perspective, we're very services focused. We're very consultative. And of course our resulting technologies are running on IBM. >> About eight years ago, Dave Vellante and I started a little small little section of SiliconANGLE called ServicesANGLE, and our premise was is that services were going to be a big driver. Now, what we missed was cloud had to set up first, and it did, and now we're seeing a boom in services, but cloud services, you're seeing new kinds of services with the edge and other things. So what's your take on this? Because now IBM has this global view. The pandemic has proven that the scale of virtual and digital is so much more compelling. No one's going back. The economics are too good. The value is being realized as clear visibility and to unit economics of projects. Projects, some are obvious double down on. Some not to, maybe. So a lot of these things are going on. What's your take on all this? >> So it is interesting, cause that is both an opportunity as well as a challenge, right, for clients. At Prolifics, we've been-- We were actually pretty blessed because we're very virtual. We're a virtual company anyway, right? So we didn't have one facility where all of our developers are housed. So it was really kind of business as usual for us in terms of how we work with our customers, with the exception of the fact we couldn't go into their offices, right, anymore, which is a bit of a challenge. But as they look at how do they really harness the cloud, how do they harness those technologies? IBM, as well as business partners like Prolifics, we're in a great position to help them with that, because a lot of where IBM is going with cloud packs and containerization, that's where our customers want to be. Now, some of them are a little bit more aggressive than others in terms of how quickly they want to adopt that technology, which is where road mapping comes into place, and helping them really set up, not just for short-term, how do they solve what's in front of their face, but let's look a year or two years down the line. How do you make sure that you're really building an agile type of environment that's going to work across data, which is really the center of all things nowadays, as well as working across other systems. >> I've been covering IBM for very long time. Actually was once an employee as a co-op student back in college. Remember those glory days. (chuckles) And you mentioned you guys have been with IBM for a very, very long time. You got to.... They've always had a business focus. They've always had great technology. They got great technologists and experts there, but I think now more than ever you're seeing the theme at the show this year as hybrid cloud edge data AI as a kind of a underlying system software for business. So you're starting to see a new era of software driving business at a level that's been completely transformed. As an IBM platform software provider, you've been there for all the IBM over the years. What's it like? What's your... What's your take on this? What opportunities do you see with the hybrid cloud? You got Red Hat now under the covers. You've got, you mentioned, containers. Is it a pinch-me moment where people were like, "Wow. There's so much here to integrate," or cloud is going to provide a new clean sheet of paper to do things. What's your... What's the vibe? What's the sentiment? >> It's interesting. We're actually seeing more customers starting to look at themselves as technology companies. So even companies that don't think that historically they're not in a technology industry, they're now identifying internally. They're talking to their staff about... We don't sell widgets. We're a technology company that happens to sell widgets. So it's really an interesting dynamic, and I would also mention that one of the themes we're seeing across a lot of customers, almost all of our customers, is this insane focus on data. I say insane in like a good way, right? So how do we use our data to help inform our processes? How do we make sure that we're sharing data effectively and efficiently with all of our trading partners? We're seeing a lot of modernization when it comes to integration, but again, integration is all about exchanging data. We're seeing customers start to dabble more with AI in terms of how can we get smarter by using the data that we have available to us? Again, I think that's going to be the next wave, because we're seeing a lot of our customers start to dabble in that but not fully embrace it just yet. But they really want to get that underlying platform around data and integration ready to go so that they can do some amazing things in the future. >> How is the hybrid cloud and data impacting Prolifics business? Where does this take you guys for the next chapter? >> Well, it's actually... (chuckles) It's actually perfect for us, because that's almost 100% of what we do. So we... As I mentioned earlier, we are 100% focused on software, right? Software and software-based solutions. We're not a hardware provider. We don't have a data center, but we help customers design and implement software-based systems. And our expertise is squarely in data, business intelligence, analytics, AI, and also integration and business process automation. Those are really our core, especially as it comes to IBM technology. Now, we also have a testing practice, which is technology agnostic, but it's really critical as you... Especially as you look at rapid development cycles, cause that's another theme we're seeing with customers, right? Nobody's got the patience to go through a long waterfall model, right? You've got to get into production. It's the Apple model, right? Get it into production, get feedback, make modifications, and go. But if it gets out there and it's completely broken. Guess what? You just stepped all over yourself. So we integrate testing into everything that we do as well. But the data and the hybrid cloud message, and all of the innovation that IBM is doing, it fits perfectly in with what we're seeing with our customers and where we've invested for so long as far as skills and expertise. >> That testing example really kind of speaks to what's state-of-the-art right now, because people can get into production with the cloud and then they realize that they're adding services pretty quickly and things break. They call it "day-two operations," is a term that there've been kicking around. I call it essentially DevSecOps, but there's a lot of kind of new things that you just got to kind of watch, which recently, IT-like functions that are now cloud ops, cloud operations, so super new. How are you guys seeing that with the customer base that you guys have? As they start to see benefits, does it impact their staffing, their support levels? What's the impact to the customer when they start to realize some of these benefits, but then understanding that with scale comes a whole nother set of operating challenges. >> Yeah. It is interesting. With that scale, it does... It does present other challenges, as you mentioned, from an operations perspective. And we have seen customers that go out there, go live. Well, you remember the commercial? I think there was a commercial many, many years ago back when the internet was kind of a new thing where it was a startup company, and they put an e-commerce site out there, right? And they were like, "Oh, yay! We got our first order." And they're like, "Yay! We have 10. Oh, crap! We have 10,000." Right? So you see customers like this, they get excited to put something out there, but they haven't fully performance tested it, right? So that's... That's also where we try to help our customers take that step back and say, "Okay. How are you going to actually plan, not just for day one, to get it out there, but longer term?" And that's where we also put our performance testing as a part of all of our solutions, because you know that yes, it's a good problem to have, but you really don't want to have that problem in the first place, so how do you make sure that you plan and prepare for that, and incrementally deploy, and make sure that your underlying technology is prepared to support that kind of volume. >> So Kirsten, I want to ask you kind of the important question this day and age in the modern era with cloud and now this new cloud scale, and it's always kind of been true in the past. But now more than ever you're starting to see the role of the ecosystem of partners as super important, because now integrations are happening. You're bringing point solutions into a platform where tools are integrating with other tools. So as a partner of IBM, how is the ecosystem role that you guys are playing, and how important is that, and what are the new things that are needed to be successful in the ecosystem with the premise that rising tide floats all boats, which is kind of... Well, we're seeing that happen now. Certainly, coming out of the pandemic it's going to be a whole new game, but there are ecosystems that are now evolving around IBM, around these big mega trends like cloud edge and data. What's your take? >> Mm-hm. Mm-hm. So first of all, you mentioned IBM's focus on ecosystem, right? And so Arvind has been very vocal about the importance of the ecosystem and how he really wants to change IBM's model out there to embrace partners. And I have to say, I think that's... That's one of the smartest things I think I've heard IBM say in years. And I know that that sounds self-serving because we are a partner, but the reality is there's several different layers where that's really important. One is the value of the partner. And you mentioned that there's a need to integrate across different systems, right? So IBM is not... Gone are the days when customers only have IBM technology. It's just not a thing. And so partners have the ability to work across different vendors, very hybrid, very unique types of environments, and make sure that the IBM interest, the IBM footprint, is well-deployed, well-represented, and set up for future success so that customer's going to want to buy more in the future, but in the context of what that customer's overall landscape is. So that's a big reason why IBM wants business partners involved with customers, and we're a little bit more... Or at least we can work with customers from a consultative perspective, right, and make sure that they are comfortable with the decisions that they're making. That isn't just the manufacturer telling them to buy our stuff. From a partners perspective, one of the biggest things that we struggle with in the marketplace is being known, right? I mean, we're... We're a decent-sized partner with over 1,000 employees, but at the end of the day, how many people know Prolifics as a brand name versus how many people know IBM? So opening those doors, partnering with the IBM sellers that have kind of an easier way in to introduce a partner and give us the credibility that, "Hey. We know Prolifics. We've seen them be successful and help very large companies that are just like you be successful with our technology. Let them help you end to end," is a... It's just a really good synergy as far as how you can actually, how IBM can scale with their customers, and how customers can realize that benefit of a broader ecosystem as well, and skillsets. >> Yeah. Great point. Arvind is very savvy on cloud. I know he loves hybrid cloud. He loves the cloud model. He's changing it with Red Hat. I think you're so smart and accurate on this whole changeover around network effects, organic ecosystems playing a power dynamic in how people buy and nurture themselves. So I think there's going to be a nice change over there. I think you're onto something pretty big with that, because look it, it's multi-vendor at many levels now. IBM has to integrate here, and you're a partner. You're well-known now. You're on theCUBE. So we're going to get the word out here. But it's- (chuckles) You're on a team. It's a group. It's not just... It's about the customer. This is now a different mindset. This is what customers want, because they're out in the organic field too. They're not just getting the emails sent to them. They're out and engaging. This is a new model. >> And one of the things that's interesting that we're seeing from our customers as well is they're no longer looking to buy a product and then have somebody come in, install, and implement. They're actually looking for guidance, right? They want ideas. "Here's what I'm trying to do with my business. How can you help me?" They're looking for an answer to that, and that requires a very different skillset, right? It's not just somebody who knows how to come in and spin up CDs and do some configurations. It's somebody who's worked in their industry before, has worked with similar types of customers, has a little bit of that road rash, can provide some of that guidance. And in order to really do that, you can't find that just in one organization. So I would tell you, actually, I mean Prolifics is a... We're a pretty good-sized company with a wide skillset, but even we partner. We also partner with other partners to help complement our skills when there's a particular expertise that's needed. So it really is a very interesting ecosystem development, and a different way of thinking, that it's not just about you and being able to do everything. It's about you being able to bring the right solution and the right ideas to a customer, and to help them be successful for the long-term. >> Awesome insight, Kirsten Craft, global head of business development and marketing at Prolifics. Great to have you on, and power of networks, power of partnerships, power of the ecosystem. The new world is here. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Thank you. Great to be here. >> Okay. This is IBM Think 2021 coverage. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (smooth music)

(slow music playing) >> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of IBM Think 2021 brought to you by IBM. >> Hello and welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of IBM Think Virtual 2021. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE. We're here with Kirsten Craft who's the global head of Business Development & Marketing at Prolifics. Kirsten, great to see you thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Thanks so much, John, it's great to be here. >> Yeah, I would love the fact that we're getting the content out there we're still remote soon in real lives coming back but what a time has been in the past year and a half or so, a lot of change, a lot of action, you guys were in the middle of it here at IBM Think, let's get into it, but first take a minute to explain what you guys do at Prolifics and your business model. >> Sure, so thanks John. So Prolifics, we've been in business actually for over 40 years which is pretty amazing when you think about technology and everything that's happened in 40 years. We are a global service provider, we've got over a thousand people worldwide and we are a hundred percent focused on software and almost a hundred percent focused on IBM. Right, of course nobody's focused on a single technology stack these days, so we work with our customers across many different products but we've been with IBM for a very long time. You know, we look at our business model, you know, when we talk with our clients, we find that organizations today they've got really complex challenges, especially now, right? In what all is happening right now, they've got a lot of really interesting opportunities as well as problems that they have to solve in front of them. And those types of situations they can't just be addressed by just buying a product. In Prolifics approach is we work with our clients to get really above the technology conversation and to really understand what are they trying to accomplish, right, at the end of the day, why is this an important initiative for you? And we help them develop roadmaps and then we help them get there. So of course we're selling technology along the way in that implementation path, so I would say from a business model perspective, we're very services focused, we're very consultative, and of course our resulting technologies are running on IBM. >> You know, about eight years ago, Dave Vellante and I started small little section of SiliconANGLE called services angle and our premise was is that services were going to be a big driver. Now, what we missed was cloud had to set up first and it did, and now we're seeing a boom in services, but cloud services, you're seeing new kinds of services with the edge and other things, so what's your take on this because now IBM has this global view, the pandemic has proven that the scale of virtual and digital is so much more compelling, no one's going back, the economics are too good, the value is being realized as clear visibility into unit economics of projects, projects to some are obvious, they double down on some not to, maybe. So a lot of these things going on, what's your take on all this? >> So it is interesting 'cause that is both an opportunity as well as a challenge, right, for clients. At Prolifics we've been, we were actually pretty blessed because we're very virtual, we're a virtual company anyway, right? So we didn't have one facility where all of our developers are housed. So it was really kind of business as usual for us in terms of how we work with our customers with the exception of the fact we couldn't go into their offices, right, anymore which is a bit of a challenge. But as they look at how do they really harness the cloud? How do they harness those technologies? You know, IBM as well as business partners like Prolifics we're in a great position to help them with that. Because a lot of where IBM is going with cloud Paks and containerization, that's where our customers want to be. Now, some of them are a little bit more aggressive than others in terms of how quickly they want to adopt that technology which is where roadmapping comes into place and helping them really set up, not just for short term, how do they solve what's in front of their face. But let's look a year or two years down the line, how do you make sure that you're really building an agile type of environment that's going to work across data which is really the center of all things nowadays as well as working across other systems? >> You know, I've been covering IBM for very long time, actually was once an employee as a co-op student back in college, I remember those glory days, and you mentioned, you guys have been with IBM for a very, very long time. They've always had a business focus, they've always had great technology, a great technologist and experts there, but I think now more than ever, you're seeing the theme at the show this year as hybrid, cloud, edge data AI as a kind of an underlying system software for business. So you starting to see a new era of software driving business at a level that's been completely transformed. As an IBM platform software provider, you've been there for all the IBM over the years, what's it like, what's your take on this? What opportunities do you see with the hybrid cloud? You've got Red Hat now under the covers, you've got, you mentioned containers, you got, is it a pinch me moment where people were like, wow, there's so much here to integrate or cloud is going to provide a new clean sheet of paper to do things, what's the vibe, what's the sentiment? >> You know, it's interesting. We're actually seeing more customers starting to look at themselves as technology companies. So even, you know, companies that don't think that historically they're not in a technology industry, they're now identifying internally, they're talking to their staff about, you know, we don't sell widgets, we're a technology company that happens to sell widgets, so it's really an interesting dynamic. And I would also mention that one of the themes we're seeing across a lot of customers, almost all of our customers, is this insane focus on data, I say insane and like a good way, right? So how do we use our data to help inform our processes? How do we make sure that we're sharing data effectively and efficiently with all of our trading partners? We're seeing a lot of modernization when it comes to integration, but again, integration is all about exchanging data. We're seeing customers start to dabble more with AI in terms of how can we get smarter by using the data that we have available to us. Again, I think that's going to be the next wave 'cause we're seeing a lot of our customers start to dabble in that but not fully embrace it just yet, but they really want to get that underlying platform around data and integration ready to go so that they can do some amazing things in the future. >> How is the hybrid cloud and data impacting Prolifics business? Where does this take you guys for the next chapter? >> Well, it's actually perfect for us because that's almost a hundred percent of what we do. So we, as I mentioned earlier, we are a hundred percent focused on software, right? Software and software based solutions, we're not a hardware provider, we don't have a data center, but we help customers design and implement software based systems. And our expertise is squarely in data, business, intelligence, analytics, AI, and also integration and business process automation. Those are really our core especially as it comes to IBM technology. Now we also have a testing practice which is technology agnostic but it's really critical especially as you look at rapid development cycles 'cause that's another theme we're seeing with customers, right? Nobody's got the patience to go through a long waterfall model, right? You've got to get into production as the Apple model, right, get it into production, get feedback, make modifications, and go. But if it gets out there and it's completely broken, guess what, you just stepped all over yourself. So we integrate testing into everything that we do as well, but the data and the hybrid cloud message and all of the innovation that IBM is doing it fits perfectly in with what we're seeing with our customers and where we've invested for so long as far as skills and expertise. >> Yeah, that testing example really kind of speaks with state-of-the-art right now because people can get into production with cloud and then they realize that they're adding services pretty quickly and things break. They call it a day to operations is a term that there've been kicking around, I call it essentially DevSecOps but there's a lot of kind of new things, you just got to kind of watch that were traditionally IT like functions that are now cloud ops, cloud operations, so super new. How are you guys seeing that with the customer base that you guys have as they start to see benefits, does it impact their staffing, their support levels, what's the impact to the customer when they start to realize some of these benefits, but then understanding that with scale comes a whole another set of operating challenges? >> Yeah, you know it is interesting with that scale, it does present other challenges as you mentioned from an operations perspective. And we have seen customers that they go out there, go live, well, you remember the commercial? I think there was a commercials many, many years ago back when the Internet was kind of a new thing where it was a startup company and they put an e-commerce site out there. Right, and they were like, oh yeah, we got our first order, and they're like, yay, we have 10. Oh crap, we have 10,000, right, so, you know, you see customers like this they get excited to put something out there but they haven't fully performance tested it, right? So that's also where we try to help our customers take that step back and say, okay, how are you going to actually plan not just for day one to get it out there, but longer term, and that's where we also put our performance testing as a part of all of our solutions because you know, that, yes, it's a good problem to have, but you really don't want to have that problem in the first place, so how do you make sure that you plan and prepare for that and incrementally deploy and make sure that your underlying technology is prepared to support that kind of volume? >> Also Kirsten, I want to ask you kind of the important question this day and age in the modern era with cloud and now this new cloud scale, and it's always kind of been true in the past but now more than ever, you're starting to see the role of the ecosystem of partners as super important because now integrations are happening, you're bringing point solutions into a platform where tools are integrated with other tools. So as a partner of IBM, how is the ecosystem role that you guys are playing, and how important is that, and what are the new things that are needed to be successful in the ecosystem? You know, with the premise that rising tide floats all boats which is kind of what we're seeing that happen now, certainly coming out of the pandemic is going to be a whole new game, but there are ecosystems that are now evolving around IBM, around these big mega trends like cloud, edge and data, what's your take? >> So first of all, you mentioned IBM's focus on ecosystem, right? And so Arvind has been very vocal about the importance of the ecosystem and how he really wants to change IBM's model out there to embrace partners. And I have to say, I think that's one of the smartest things I think I've heard IBM say in years. And I know that that sounds self-serving because we are a partner, but the reality is there's several different layers where that's really important. One is the value of the partner, you know, and you mentioned that there's a need to integrate across different systems, right? So IBM is not, gone are the days when customers only have IBM technology, it's just not a thing. And so partners have the ability to work across different vendors, very hybrid, very unique types of environments, and make sure that the IBM interests, the IBM footprint is well deployed, well-represented, and set up for future success that that customer is going to want to buy more in the future, but in the context of what that customer's overall landscape is. So that's a big reason why IBM wants business partners involved with customers. And we're a little bit more, or at least, you know, we can work with customers from a consultative perspective, right, and make sure that they are comfortable with the decisions that they're making, that isn't just the manufacturer telling them to buy our stuff. From a partners perspective, one of the biggest things that we struggle with in the marketplace is being known, right? I mean, we're, you know, we're a decent sized partner with over a thousand employees but at the end of the day, how many people know Prolifics as a brand name versus how many people know IBM. So opening those doors, partnering with the IBM sellers that have kind of an easier way in to introduce a partner and give us the credibility that, hey, we know Prolifics, we've seen them be successful and help very large companies that are just like you be successful in our technology, let them help you end to end, it's just a really good synergy as far as how you can actually, how IBM can scale with our customers and how customers can realize that benefit of a broader ecosystem as well and skillsets. >> Yeah, great point. Arvind is very savvy on cloud, I know he loves hybrid cloud, and he loves the cloud model, he's changing it with Red Hat. I think you're so smart and accurate on this whole changeover around network effects, organic ecosystems playing a power dynamic in how people buy and nurture themselves. So, you know, I think there's going to be a nice changeover there, I think you're onto something pretty big with that because look at, it's multi-vendor at many levels now, it's IBM has to integrate here, and you're a partner. You will know now you're on theCUBE, so we're going to get the word out here, but it's, you're on a team, it's a group, it's not just, it's about the customer. This is now a different mindset, this is what customers want because they're out in the organic field too, they're not just getting an email sent to them, they're out and engaging, this is a new model. >> And you know, one of the things that's interesting that we're seeing from our customers as well is they're no longer looking to buy a product and then have somebody come in, install and implement. They're actually looking for guidance, right, they want ideas, here's what I'm trynna do with my business, how can you help me? They're looking for an answer to that and that requires a very different skillset, right? It's not just somebody who knows how to come in and spin up CDs and do some configurations, it's somebody who's worked, you know, in their industry before, has worked with similar types of customers, has a little bit of that road rash, can provide some of that guidance. And in order to really do that, you can't find that just in one organization, so I would tell you actually I mean, Prolifics is a, you know, we're a pretty good sized company with a wide skillset, but even we partner. We also partner with other partners to help compliment our skills when there's a particular expertise that's needed, so it really is a very interesting ecosystem development and a different way of thinking, that it's not just about you and being able to do everything, it's about you being able to bring the right solution and the right ideas to a customer and to help them be successful for the long-term. >> Awesome insight, Kirsten Craft, global head of Business Development & Marketing at Prolifics. Great to have you on and power of networks, power of partnerships, power of the ecosystem, the new world is here, thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Thank you, great to be here. >> Okay, this is IBM Think 2021 coverage, I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE, thanks for watching. (bright upbeat music) (slow music playing)

>> Announcer: Live from San Juan, Puerto Rico, it's theCUBE covering Blockchain Unbound. Brought to you buy Blockchain Industries. (upbeat music) >> Hello everyone, welcome to our exclusive coverage here in Puerto Rico with theCUBE on the ground for extensive two days of coverage for Blockchain Unbound in Puerto Rico where all the action is. It's a global conference where investors, entrepreneurs, thought leaders are all coming together to check out the future and set the agenda for Blockchain cryptocurrency and the decentralized internet. My next guest is John Hartigan, Executive Vice President in Intiva Health. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> So we were talking yesterday with Hash-Craft, CTO, you guys are part of that ecosystem, you guys are doing some of these things with health. Take a minute to explain what you guys are working on and your value proposition. >> Sure, so, Intiva Health is a career and credential management platform for physicians and all licensed medical professionals, and it streamlines and automates the credential management process that they have to go through every time that they either change positions or take on temporary work. And the Hash-Craft integration is allowing us to do instantaneous credential verification. Currently the state of affairs in the granting of privileges at a particular hospital or a facility can take literally weeks and in some cases months to complete. It's a very analog process, and with our integration with Hash-Craft, it will take seconds. >> So I was watching The New York Times today, an our Wall Street Journal article about verification of work history. This Blockchain is certainly a good example of that, but you're now getting it into more of health, what is the use case, what's the low hanging fruit that you guys are going after with your solution, and how does that evolve and how you see that evolving? >> Well, so, like I mentioned, the current verification process for the granting of privileges in a hospital setting, it is pretty much unchanged since the 1950s. The internet helps a lot but what you're talking about is somebody getting a credential paper file with 25 or 30 documents, and opening the file and picking up the phone and calling, and verifying the reputation and provenance of that particular physician. And it's truly a bureaucratic nightmare. It's red tape to the nth degree. And so that represents thousands and hundreds of thousands of hours and billions and billions of dollars in waste that could be reallocated to better patient care for example. >> The big use case we're seeing education, the workplace, but now healthcare. I see a perfect storm for innovation. Healthcare is not known for moving fast. >> John: Correct. >> HIPAA regulations in the past couple decades really put a damper on data sharing for privacy reasons. At that time it seemed like a good call. Has things like HIPAA, has the cloud computing model opened up new avenues for health because everyone wants great healthcare, but the data is stuck in some silo, database. >> Database, absolutely. >> That's the problem. >> That's absolutely a problem. >> So what's your reaction to that? >> So the approach that we're seeing a lot of organizations take is they are attempting to go after the EHRs and the EMRs, the Electronic Health Records for Patients. Of course that is something that needs to be fixed. However the medical space is truly influenced, the main stakeholders are the physicians. They sit on all the committees, they run all the budgets, they make the policy. So it's imperative that we address the physicians and get their buy into any kind of significant change. And what you're seeing now is states, as well as other organizations including the federal medical board, the Federal Association of Medical Boards, as well as the State of Illinois, Wyoming is here, as a matter of fact, representing, and they are all looking at Blockchain solutions for this verification problem for the medical space and remaining HIPAA compliant. >> Let's talk about security because hospitals and healthcare organizations have been really good targets for ransomware. >> John: Absolutely. >> And so we're seeing that mainly because their IT systems have been kind of ancient in some cases, but they're right in the target of, they don't have a lot of IT support. One of the things about Blockchain, it makes these things immutability. So is that something that is on the radar, and how is, I mean, not necessarily ransomware, that's one example of many security issues 'cause you got Internet of Things, you have a slew of cloud-edge technologies-- >> John: Yes. >> That are emerging, that opened up a surface area for a text. So what's your thoughts on that? >> So, as you mentioned, the traditional models have been layered on top of each other overtime. It's a patchwork situation. And because it's a patchwork situation, there is vulnerabilities all over the place, in facilities a lot of times. And besides that, the medical space is probably 10 years behind the times when it comes to technology, maybe five at a minimum. The model that we're using, you mentioned earlier that there are siloed information in these different facilities and hospitals, and that's absolutely true. So all of that information, you have facility A, facility B, facility C, they all have information on one particular provider or physician, but they don't talk to each, and that information is at different levels of accuracy and timeliness, you mentioned time and date stamps. So our model works where the information follows the provider, okay, it's all built around the provider themselves, and then the individual facilities can tap into that information, and also they can influence the information, they can update it. So everybody will then be talking to each other in an anonymous fashion around the one provider updating that information and making it the most accurate in the market, and we get away from the old SaaS model. >> Before we deep dive in here, I'm going to ask you one more thing around as you walked into healthcare providers and then the healthcare industry, you're a different breed, you have Blockchain, you got different solution, the conversation that they're having is, let's put a data leg out there, again, centralized data leg. ISPs are doing that. We know with cybersecurity, any time you have centralized data resources, it's just an easier target to hack. >> John: Correct. >> So it's clear that centralized is not going to be the ideal architecture, and this entire movement is based upon the principles of decentralized data. >> John: Yes. >> So what's it like when you go in there? It must be like, do you have like three heads to them? Or are you like a martian, you're like speaking some foreign language? I mean what is it like, are there people receptive to what you talk about? Talk about some of the experiences you had when you walked in the door and knocked on the front door and walked in and talked to them. >> So it is an interesting situation. When I speak with CEOs and when I speak with COOs, they understand that they're vulnerable when it comes to their data, and they understand how expensive it is if, for example, if they have a HIPAA breach, it's $10,000 per occurrence. Now that means if somebody texts patient information to somebody else on a normal phone, that $10,000 every time that happens, okay. And so if it's a major data breach, and a record of files if they have 50,000 files lost, I mean it could be a killing, a business killing event under the right circumstances. So I tried to educate them about-- >> Do they look at Blockchain as a solution there? Or are they scratching their heads, kicking the tires? What's the reaction? >> They're interested, they don't understand exactly how we can apply Blockchain, and we're trying to educate them as to how that is, we are capable of doing so. We're explaining about the vast security improvements by decentralizing the information, and they are receptive, they're just reticent because they're very, tend to be more conservative. So as these organizations like the State of Illinois and the Federal Association of Medical Boards, as they start to adopt the hospitals and facilities, they're starting to look in and oh say, "Hey, this is a real thing, "and there may be a real application here." >> Talk about your business, you market, you go on after obviously healthcare, product specifically in the business model, where are you guys? How big are you? Are you funded? Are you doing an ICO? How are you using token economics? How is it working? Give us a status on the company. >> Sure, so, we've been in business for approximately two years. We're a funded startup out of Austin, Texas. We are born actually out of a practice management company which is an important point because a technology company trying to solve this problem would really struggle because there is a lot of bureaucracy, there's a lot of nuance in how the system operates because it is evolved overtime. So that gives us a very significant advantage. We have an operating platform that has been out for a little over a year now, and we have thousands and thousands of physicians and other licensed medical professionals that use the platform now. >> Are they paying customers or are they just users? >> No, so the model works like this, it's free to the providers, it's also free to the facilities and medical groups, and so we allow that platform, that utility for them to use. How we monetize is we have other curated goods and services for the providers along their career journey. So, for example, continuing medical education. All providers are required to take so many units a year, and we have a very robust online library of CME. And we also have partnerships with medical malpractice organizations. >> So it's a premium model. You get them using the platform. >> Correct, that's right. >> Where does tokens fit in? Where does the cryptocurrency fit in? Do you have a token as a utility, obviously, it's a utility token. I mean explain the model. >> Correct. Yeah so we just announced last Friday. in South by Southwest that we are launching a token, a utility token, and it'll go on sale April 19th. And basically how it works is the providers, the physicians will earn tokens by taking actions in the platform that update their data for example, or if they look for a job on our platform, or if they do different tasks in the platform that improve the veracity of their data, and then they will be able to use those tokens to purchase the continuing medical education courses, travel courses, medical malpractice insurance, a number of different resources. >> Token will monitor behavior, engage behavior, and then a two-sided marketplace for clearing house. >> Exactly. >> How does the token go up in value? >> We have multiple partners that are involved, so the partners will be also purchasing advertising time, or it's a sponsorship model, so they'll be able to sponsor within the platform. So the more partners we bring in, the more providers we have, the value-- >> So suppliers, people who want to reach those guys. So >> Exactly. >> You get the coins, you see who's doing what. You get a vibe on who's active and then >> Exactly. That's a signal to potential people who want to buy coins. >> Yeah, and when we announced that we were doing this token, we had multiple partners that we have been in business with for the last two years, saying, "We want in, we want to do this, "we want to get involved." Oh another thing that we're doing with the token, we have an exclusive relationship with the National Osteoporosis Foundation, and we put forth to them that we would like to set them up with a crypto wallet so that they can accept donations, and then we would also match those donations up to a certain point that they receive in crypto. So we want to help our organizations, our not-for-profits by facilitating crypto acceptance. >> So talk about your relationship with Hash-Craft. It's two days old but it's been around for two years, they announced a couple days ago. It got good feedback, a lot of developers are using it. It's not a theorem but that's the compatibility to a theorem. You're betting on that platform. How long have you worked with these guys, and why the bet on Hash-Craft? >> So we were looking at Blockchain Technologies about two years ago because we realized, as you mentioned earlier, the security issues we have. We have to be very aware of the type of data that we're holding. So at the time though, there were significant issues with speed, significant issues with storage, and how it would work by actually putting a credential packet into Blockchain, and the technology frankly just wasn't there, and so we started looking for alternatives. Thankfully we were in Texas, and we happened to run into Hash-Craft, and they explained what they were doing, and we thought this must be too good to be true. It checked off all of our boxes. And we had multiple conversations about how we would actually execute an integration into our current platform with Hash-Craft. So we've been in talks with them for, I think, a little over five or six months, and we will actually, it looks like be one of the very first applications on the market integrating Hash-Craft. >> It's interesting, they don't really have a Blockchain-based solution, it's a DAG, a directed acyclic graphic model. Did that bother you guys? You don't care, it's plumbing. I mean does it matter? >> So actually the way that it is established, it has all of the benefits of Blockchain, and none of the fat and sugar, so to speak. I mean there are a number of things that they do that Blockchain-- >> You mean performance issues and security? >> Performance, speed is a big one, but also fairness on the date and timestamps, because with the verification system, you have to prove, you have to be able to prove and show that this date and timestamp is immutable, and that it has been established in a fair manner. And they have been able to solve that problem, where the Blockchain model, there is still some question about, if you have some bad actors in there, they can significantly influence the date and timestamps. And that was very significant for our model. >> Alright, well, congratulations. What's next for the company? What are you guys doing? What's the plan, what's the team like? Well, excited obviously. What's next? >> So we are going to be announcing some very big partnerships that we've established here late spring. I was hoping to do it here now, however we've-- >> Come on, break it out then. >> I would like to but I have to be careful. So we have some big partnerships we're going to be announcing, and of course we have the token sale coming up so there'll be a big-- >> Host: When is that sale happening? >> So it starts April 19th, and it'll run for about six weeks. >> What's the hard cap and soft cap? >> Yeah, we prefer not to talk about that, but let's say, soft cap, about 12 million. And we have some interested parties that want to do more, and so we're looking at what our best options are as far as setting the value to the token, and what the partnerships that are going to significantly impact it will be. >> Well, great job, congratulations. One of the big concerns to this market is scams versus legit, and you're starting to see clearly that this is a year, flight to quality, where real businesses are tokenizing for real reasons, to scale, provide value. You guys are a great example of that. Thanks for sharing that information. >> We're really excited, and it's very exciting to bring this to the healthcare space which is, as we said, conservative and somewhat traditional. And we believe that we will be setting the standard moving forward for primary source verification. >> And you can just summarize the main problem that you solve. >> Yeah, it is that analog primary source verification of the credential documents, and when our platform goes live, we will literally be putting hours of time a day, something like eight hours back into the providers' lives, and back to the money of that, associated with that back to their pockets, which we hope translates into better patient care. >> So verification trust and they save time. >> John: Absolutely. >> It's always a good thing when you can reduce the steps to do something, save time, make it easy. That's a business model of success. >> Absolutely and more secure. >> John Hatigan, who's with Intiva, Executive Vice President from Austin, Texas here in Puerto Rico for theCUBE coverage. Day Two of two days of live coverage here in Puerto Rico, I'm John Furrier with theCUBE host. We'll be back with more live coverage after this short break. (upbeat music)

(Latin music) >> Narrator: Live, from San Juan, Puerto Rico, it's theCUBE! Covering Blockchain Unbound. Brought to by Blockchain Industries. (Latin music) >> Welcome back to our exclusive Puerto Rico coverage, here, this is theCUBE for Blockchain Unbound, the future of blockchain cryptocurrency, the decentralized web, the future of society, the world, of work, et cetera, play, it's all happening right here, I'm reporting it, the global internet's coming together, my next guest is Fred Krueger, a founder and CEO of a new innovative approach called WorkCoin, the future of work, he's tackling. Fred, great to see you! >> Thank you very much, John. >> So we saw each other in Palo Alto at the D10e at the Four Seasons, caught up, we're Facebook friends, we're LinkedIn friends, just a quick shout out to you, I saw you livestreaming Brock Pierce's keynote today, which I thought was phenomenal. >> Yeah, it was a great keynote. >> Great work. >> And it's Pi Day. >> It's Pi Day? >> And I'm a mathematician, so, it's my day! (Fred laughs) >> It's geek day. >> It's geek day. >> All those nerds are celebrating. So, Fred, before we get into WorkCoin, I just want to get your thoughts on the Brock Pierce keynote, I took a video of it, with my shaky camera, but I thought the content was great. You have it up on Facebook on your feed, I just shared it, what was your takeaway of his message? I thought it was unedited, obviously, no New York Times spin here, no-- >> Well first of all, it's very authentic, I've known Brock 10 years, and, I think those of us who have known Brock a long time know that he's changed. He became very rich, and he's giving away, and he really means the best. It's completely from the heart, and, it's 100% real. >> Being in the media business, kind of by accident, and I'm not a media journalist by training, we're all about the data, we open our datas, everyone knows we share the free content. I saw the New York Times article about him, and I just saw it twisted, okay? The social justice warriors out there just aren't getting the kind of social justice that he's actually trying to do. So, you've known him for 10 years, I see as clear as day, when it's unfiltered, you say, here's a guy, who's eccentric, smart, rich now, paying it forward? >> Yep. >> I don't see anything wrong with that. >> Look, I think that the-- >> What is everyone missing? >> There's a little jealously, let's be honest, people resent a little bit, and I think part of it's the cryptocurrency world's fault. When your symbol of success is the Lamborghini, it's sort of like, this is the most garish, success-driven, money-oriented crowd, and it reminds me a little bit of the domain name kind of people. But Brock's ironically not at all that, so, he's got a-- >> If you look at the ad tech world, and the domain name world, 'cause they're all kind of tied together, I won't say underbelly, but fast and loose would be kind of the way I would describe it. >> Initially, yes, ad tech, right? So if you look at ad tech back in say, I don't know, 2003, 2004, it was like gunslingers, right? You wanted to by some impressions, you'd go to a guy, the guy'd be like, "I got some choice impressions, bro." >> I'll say a watch too while I'm at it. >> Yeah, exactly. (John laughs) That was the ad tech world, right? And that world was basically replaced by Google and Facebook, who now control 80% of the inventory, and it's pretty much, you go to a screen, it's all service and that's it. I don't know if that's going to be the case in cryptocurrencies, but right now, initially, you sort of have this, they're a Wild West phenomenon. >> Any time you got alpha geeks, and major infrastructure application developer shift happening, which is happening, you kind of look at these key inflection points, you need to kind of have a strong community self-policing policy, if you look at the original DNS days, 'cause you remember, I was there too, Jon Postel, rest in peace, godspeed, we all know what he did, Vint Cerf with TCP/IP, the core dudes, and gals, back then, they were tight! So any kind of new entrants that came in had to prove their worth. I won't say they were the most welcoming, 'cause they were nervous of people to infect the early formation, mostly they're guys, they're nerds. >> Right, so I think if you look back at domain names, back in the day, a lot of people don't know this, but Jon Postel actually kept the list of domain names in a text file, right? You had basically wanted a domain name, you called Jon up, and you said, "I'd like my name added to the DNS," and he could be like, "Okay, let me add it "to the text file." Again, these things all start in a very sort of anarchic way, and now-- >> But they get commercial. >> It gets commercial, and it gets-- >> SAIC, Network Solutions, in various time, we all know the history, ICANN, controlled by the Department of Commerce up until a certain point in time-- >> Uh, 'til about four years ago, really. >> So, this is moving so fast. You're a student of the industry, you're also doing a startup called WorkCoin, what is the formula for success, what is your strategy, what are you guys doing at WorkCoin, take a minute to explain what you guys are doing, your team, your approach-- >> So let's start with the problem, right? If you look at freelancing, right now, everybody knows that a lot of people freelance, and I don't think people understand how many people freelance. There are 57 million people in America who freelance. It's close to 50%, of us, don't actually have jobs, other than freelancing. And so, this is a slow moving train, but it's basically moving in the direction of more freelancers, and we're going to cross the 50% mark-- >> And that's only going to get bigger, because of virtual work, the global workforce, no boundaries-- >> Right, and so it's global phenomena, right? Freelancing is just going up, and up, and up. Now, you would think in this world, there would be something like Google where you could sit there, and go type patent attorney, and you could get 20 patent attorneys that would be competing for your business, and each one would have their price, and, you could just click, and hire a patent attorney, right? Is that the case? >> No. >> No, okay. >> I need a patent attorney. >> So, what if you have to hire a telegram manager for your telegram channel? Can you find those just by googling telegram manager, no. So basically-- >> The user expectation is different than the infrastructure can deliver it, that's what you're basically saying. >> No, what I'm saying is it should be that way, it is not that way, and the reason it's not that way is that basically, there's no economics to do that with credit cards, so, if you're building a marketplace where it's kind of these people are find each other, you need the economics to make sense. And when you're being charged 3.5% each way, plus you have to worry about chargebacks, buyer fraud, and everything else, you can't built a marketplace that's open and transparent. It's just not possible. And I realized six months ago, that with crypto, you actually could. Not that it's going to be necessarily easy, but, technically, it is possible. There's zero marginal cost, once I'm taking in crypto, I'm paying out crypto, in a sort of open marketplace where I can actually see the person, so I could hire John Furrier, not John F., right? >> But why don't you go to LinkedIn, this is what someone might say. >> Well, if you go to LinkedIn, first of all, the person there might not be in the market, probably is not in the market for a specific service, right? You can go there, then you need to message them. And you just say, "Hey, your profile looks great, "I noticed you're a patent attorney, "you want to file this patent for me?" And then you have to negotiate, it's not a transactional mechanism, right? >> It's a lot of steps. >> It's not transactional, right? So it's not click, buy, fund, engage, it just doesn't work that way. It's just such a big elephant in the room problem, that everybody has these problems, nobody can find these good freelancers. What do you end up doing? You end up going to Facebook, and you go, "Hey, does anybody know any good patent attorneys?" That's what you do. >> That's a bounty. >> Well, it's kind of, yeah. >> It's kind of a social bounty. "Hey hive, hey friends, does anyone know anything?" >> It's social proof, right? Which is another thing that's very important, because, if John, if you were-- >> Hold on, take a minute to explain what social proof is for the folks. >> Social proof is just the simple concept that it's a recommendation coming from somebody that you know, and trust. So, for example, I may not be interested in your video services, John, but I know you, and I am in the business of a graphic designer, and you're like, "Fred, I know this amazing graphic designer, "and she's relatively cheap." Okay, well that's probably good enough for me to at least start looking at her work, and going the next step. On the other hand, if I'm just looking at 100 graphic designers, I do not know. >> It's customized contextual data, around a specific transaction from a trusted source. So you socially, are connected to, or related. >> It, sort of, think about this, it doesn't even have to be a source that you know, it could be just a source that you know of, right? So, to use the Brock example again, Brock's probably not going to be selling his services on my platform, but what if he recommends somebody, people like giving the gift of recommendation. So Brock knows a lot of people, may not be doing as well as him, right? And he's like, "Well, this guy could be a fantastic guy "to hire as social media manager," for example. Helping out a guy that needs a little bit of work. >> And endorsement's a major thing. >> It is giving something, right? You're giving your own brand, by saying, "I stand behind this person." >> Alright, so tell me about where you are with WorkCoin, honestly, people might not know your background, if you check him out on LinkedIn, Fred Krueger, mathematician, Stanford PhD, well-educated, from a centralized organization, like Stanford, has a good reputation, you're a math guy, is there math involved? Obviously, Blockchain's math related, you got crypto, how are you guys building this out, share a little bit of, if you can, show a little leg on the tech-- >> The tech is sort of simple. So basically the way it is, is right now it's built in Google Cloud, but we have an interface where you can fund the thing, and so it's built, first of all, that's the first thing. We built it on web and mobile. And you can basically buy WorkCoins from the platform itself, using Ethereum, and also, we've integrated with Sensei, a different token. So, we can integrate with different tokens, so you're using these tokens to fund the coin, to fund your account, right? And then, once you have the tokens in your account, you can then buy services with them, right? And then the service provider, the minute they finish delivery of the service, to your expectation, they get the coin in their account, and then they can transfer that coin back into Ethereum, or Bitcoin, or whatever, to cash out. >> Okay, so wait, now that product's built, has the coins been issued? Are you guys doing an ICO? Are you raising money? >> So we're in the middle of an ICO-- >> Private? >> Private, only for now. So we've raised just under $4,000,000-- >> Great, congratulations. >> I have no idea if that's good or not-- >> Well, it's better than a zero (laughs). >> It's better than zero, right? It is better than zero, right? >> So there's interest obviously. >> Yeah, so look, we've got a lot of interest in our product, and I think part of the interest is it's very simple. A lot of people can go, "I think this thing makes sense." Now, does that mean we're going to be completely successful in taking over the world, I don't know. >> Well, I mean, you got some tailwinds at your back. One, the infrastructure in e-commerce, and the things that you're going after, are 20-year-old stacks. Number two, the business model, and expectation of the users, is shifting radically, and expectations are different, and there's no actual product that does it (laughs), so. >> So a lot of these ICOs, I think they're going to have technical problems actually building into the specification. 'Cause it's difficult, when you're dealing with the Blockchain, first of all, you're building on some movable platform, right? I met some people just today who are building on Hash-Craft, now, that's great, but Hash-Craft is like one day old, you know? So you're building on something that is one day old, and they've just announced their coin five minutes ago, you know. Again, that's great, but normally as a developer myself, I'm used to building on things that are years old, I mean, even something that's three years old is new. >> This momentum going on, that someone might want to tout Hash-Craft for is, 'cause it's got momentum-- >> It's got total momentum. >> They're betting on an ecosystem. But that brings up the other thing I want to get your thoughts on, because we've observed this at Polycon, we've been watching the industry landscape now, onto our 10th year, there's almost an ecosystem stake in the ground. The good news is, ecosystem's developing. You got entrepreneurs, you got projects, you got funding coming in, but as it's going to be a fight for the ecosystem, because you can't have zillion ecosystems, eventually they have to be-- >> Well, you know-- >> Or can you? >> Here's the problem, that everybody's focused on the plumbing right now, right, the infrastructure? But, what they should be focusing it on is the app. And I've a question for you, and I've asked this question to my advisors and investors, which are DNA Fund, and I say-- >> Let's see if I get it right, it's a test here on the spot, I love this, go. >> Okay, so here's the question, how many, in your wallet right now, on your mobile phone, show me how many Blockchain apps you have right now. >> Uh, zero, on my phone? >> Okay, zero. >> Well I have a burner phone for my other one, so (laughs). >> But on any phone, on any phone that you possess, how many Blockchain apps do you have on your phone? >> Wallet or apps? >> An app that you-- >> Zero. >> An app, other than a wallet, zero, right? Every single person I've asked in this conference has the same number, zero. Now, think about this, if you'd-- >> Actually, I have one. >> Uh, which one? >> It's called Cube Coin. >> Okay, there you go, Cube Coin. But, here's the problem, if you went to a normal-- >> Can I get WorkCoin right now? >> Yeah, well not right now, but I have it on my wallet. So for example, it's in test flight, but my point is I have a fully functional thing I can go buy services, use the coin, everything, in an app. I think this is one of the things-- >> So, hypothetically, if I had an application that was fully functional, with Blockchain, with cryptocurrency, with ERC 2 smart contracts, I would be ahead of the game? >> You would be ahead of the game. I mean, I think-- >> Great news, guys! >> And I think you absolutely are thinking the right thinking, because, everybody's just looking at the plumbing, and, look, I love EOS, but, it's sort of a new operating system, same as Hash-Craft, but you need apps to run on your thing-- >> First of all, I love chatting with you, you're super smart, folks out there, Fred is someone you should check out, you got great advisor potential. You're right on this, I want to test something out with you, I've been thinking about this for a while. If you think about the OSI model, OSI stack, for the younger kids, that was a key movement that generated the key standards in the stack for inner networking, and physical devices. So, it was started from the bottom up. The top of the stack actually never standardized, it became the presentation session layer, they differentiated, then eventually became front end. If you look at what's happening now, the top of the stack is really the ones that's standardizing, or standardizing with business logic, the bottom of the stack has many different versions of say, Blockchain, so the question is is that, it might be the world that will never have a TCP/IP moment, it might be that the business app logic will dictate to some sort of abstraction layer, down to programmable plumbing. You see this with cloud with DevOps. So the question is, do see it that way? I'm thinking out loud here, but when I'm seeing the trend here, it's just that, people who make the business logic decisions first, and nail those, that they're far more successful swapping out and hedging on the plumbing. >> Look, I think you mentioned the word alpha geek, and I think you've just defined yourself as an alpha geek. Let's just go in Denzel Washington's set in the movie Philadelphia, talk to me like I'm a five year old, okay? What is the problem you're solving? >> The app, you said it, it's the app! >> My point is like, everybody is walking around with apps, if the thing doesn't fit on an app, it's not solving any problem, that's the bottom line. I don't care whether you're-- >> You're validating the concept that all that matters is the app, the plumbing will sort itself out. >> I think so. >> Is that a dependency, or is it an interdependency? >> What do you need in a plumbing? Here's how I think you should think. Do I need 4,000 transactions per second? I would say, rarely, most people are not sitting there going, "I need to do 4,000 transactions per second." >> If you need that, you've already crossed the finish line, you probably want a proprietary solution. >> Just to put things in perspective, Bitcoin does 300,000 transactions per day. >> Well, why does Ripple work? Ripple works because they nailed the business model. >> I'll tell you what I think of Ripple-- >> What's your take? >> Why ripple works, I think all, and I'm not the first person to say this, but I think that, the thing that works right now, the core application of all this stuff, is money, right? That's the core thing. Now, if you're talking about documents on the Blockchain, is that going to be useful, perhaps. In a realist's say in the Blockchain, perhaps. Poetry on the Blockchain, maybe. Love on the Blockchain? Why ban it, you know? >> Hey, there's crypto-kiddies on the Blockchain, love is coming next. >> Love is coming next. But, the core killer app, the killer app, is money. It's paying people. That is the killer app of the Blockchain right now, okay? So, every single one of the things that's really successful is about paying people. So what is Bitcoin? Bitcoin is super great, for taking money, and moving it out of China, and into the United States. Or out of Nigeria, and into Switzerland, right? You want to take $100,000 out of Nigeria, and move it to Switzerland? Bitcoin is your answer. Now, you want to move money from bank A to bank B, Ripple is your answer, right? (John laughs) If you want to move money from Medellin, Colombia, that you use in narcos, Moneiro is probably your crypto of choice, you know? (John laughs) Business truly anonymous. And I think it's really about payment, right? And so, I look at WorkCoin as, what is the killer thing you're doing here, you're paying people. You're paying people for work, so, it's designed for that. That's so simple. >> The killer app is money, Miko Matsumura would say, open source money, that's his narrative, love that vision. Okay, if money's the killer app, the rest is all kind of window dressing around trying to race to-- >> I think it's the killer, it's the initial killer app. I think we need to get to the point where we all, not all of us, but where enough of us start transacting, with money, with digital money, and then after digital money, there will be other killer apps, right? It's sort of like, if you look at the internet, and again, I'm repeating somebody else's argument-- >> It's Fred Krueger's hierarchy of needs, money-- >> Money starts, right? >> Money is the baseline. >> The initial thing, what was the first thing of internet? I was on the internet before it was the internet. It was called the ARPANET, at Stanford, right? I don't know if you remember those days-- >> I do remember, yeah, I was in college. >> But the ARPANET, it was email, right? We had the first versions of email. And that was back in 1986. >> Email was the killer app for 15, 20 years. >> It was the killer app, right? And I think-- >> For 15 or 20 years. >> Absolutely, well before websites, you know? So I think, we got to solve money first. And I bless everybody who has got some other model, and maybe they're right, maybe notarization of documents on the internet is a-- >> There's going to be use cases for Blockchain, some obvious low-hanging fruit, but, that's not revolutionary, that's not game-changing, what is game-changing is the promise of a new decentralized infrastructure. >> Here's the great thing that's absolutely killer about what this whole world is, and this is why I'm very bullish, it's, if you look at the internet of transmitting value, from one node to another node, credit cards just do not do a very good job of that, right? So, you can't put a credit card inside a machine, very well, at all, right? It doesn't work! And very simple reason, why? Because you get those Amex fraud alerts. (John laughs) Now the machine, if he's paying another machine, the second machine doesn't know how to interpret the first machine's Amex fraud alerts. So, the machine has to pay in, the machine's something that's immutable. I'm paying you a little bit of token. The classic example is the self-driving car that pays the gas pump, 'cause it's a gas self-driving car, it pays it to fill up, and the gas pump may have to pay its landlord in rent, and all of this is done with tokens, right? With credit cards, that does not work. So it has to be tokens. >> Well, what credit cards did for other transactions a little bit simplifies your things, there's a whole 'nother wave coming, that just makes it easier and reduces the steps. >> It reduces the friction, and that's why I think, actually, the killer app's going to be marketplaces, because, if you look at a marketplace, whether it's a marketplace like ours, for freelancers, or your marketplace for virtual goods, and like wax, or whatever it is, right? I think marketplaces, where there's no friction, where once you've paid, it's in. There's no like, I want my money back. That is a killer app, it's an absolute killer app. I think we're going to see real massive consumer adoption with that, and that's ultimately, I think, that's what we need, because if it's all just business models, and people touting their 4,000 transactions a second, that's not going to fly. >> Well Fred, you have a great social graph, that's socially proved, you got a great credentials, in mathematics, PhD from Stanford, you reinvent nine, how many exits? >> Nine exits. >> Nine exits. You're reinventing freelancing on the Blockchain, you're an alpha geek, but you can also explain things to a five year old, great to have you on-- >> Thank you very much John. >> Talk about the WorkCoin, final word, get the plugin for WorkCoin, can people use it now, when is it going to be available-- >> Look, you can go check out our platform, as Miko said, Miko's an advisor, and Miko said, "Fred, think of it as a museum, "you can come visit the museum, "you're not going to see a zillion, "but you can do searches there, you can find people." The museum is not fully operational, right? You can come and check it out, you can take a look at the trains at the museum, the trains will finally operate once we're finished with our ICO, we can really turn the thing on, and everything will work, and what I'd like you to do, actually, you can follow our ICO, if you're not American, you can invest in our ICO-- >> WorkCoin dot-- >> Net. >> Workcoin.net >> Workcoin.net, and, really, at the end, if you have some skill that you can sell on the internet, you're a knowledge worker, you can do anything. List your skill for sale, right? And then, that's the first thing. If you're a student at home, maybe you can do research reports. I used to be a starving student at Stanford. I was mainly spending my time in the statistics department, if somebody said, "Fred, instead of grading "undergrad papers, we'll pay you money "to do statistical work for a company," I would be like, "That would be amazing!" Of course, nobody said that. >> And anyways, you could also have the ability to collaborate with some quickly, and do a smart contract, you could do some commerce, and get paid. >> And get paid for it! >> Hey, hey! >> How 'about that, so I just see-- >> Move from the TA's grading papers payroll, which is like peanuts-- >> And maybe make a little bit more doing something that's more relevant to my PhD. All I know is there's so many times where I've said, my math skills are getting rusty, and I was like, I'd really wish I could talk to somebody who knew something about this distribution, or, could help me-- >> And instantly, magically have them-- And I can't even find them! Like, I have no idea, I have no idea how I would go and find people at Stanford Institute, I would have no idea. So if I could type Stanford, statistics, and find 20 people there, or USC Statistics, imagine that, right? That could change the world-- >> That lowers the barriers, friction barriers, to-- >> Everybody could be hiring graduate students. >> Well it's not just hiring, collaborating too. >> Collaborating, yeah. >> Everything. >> And any question that you have, you know? >> Doctor doing cancer research, might want to find someone in China, or abroad, or in-- >> It's a worldwide thing, right? We have to get this platform so it's open, and so everybody kind of goes there, and it's like your identity on there, there's no real boundary to how we can get. Once we get started, I'm sure this'll snowball. >> Fred, I really appreciate you taking the time-- >> Thanks a lot for your time. >> And I love your mission, and, we support you, whatever you need, WorkCoin, we got to find people out there to collaborate with, otherwise you're going to get pushed fake news and fake data, best way to find it is through someone's profile on WorkCoin-- >> Thanks. >> Was looking forward to seeing the product, I'm John Furrier, here in Puerto Rico for Blockchain Unbound, Restart Week, a lot of great things happening, Brock Pierce on the keynote this morning really talking about his new venture fund, Restart, which is going to be committed 100% to Puerto Rico, this is where the action will be, we will be following this exclusive story, continuing, we'll be back with more, thanks for watching. (soothing electronic music)