Steven Sprague, Rivetz | HoshoCon 2018
>> From the Hard Rock Hotel in Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering HoshoCon 2018. Brought to you by Hosho. >> Over and welcome back to our live coverage here in Las Vegas for HoshoCon. I'm John Furrier host of theCUBE. The first inaugural conference on security in the blockchain security is obviously not new to the blockchain It's number one concern. Crypto is crypto, decentralized networks is what people want. Security is the only thing that matters, if you haven't been hacked, then you should know we're being hacked. This is theCUBE coverage here in Las Vegas for HoshoCon. I'm John Furrier with Steven Sprague CEO of Rivetz, who's a security and an entrepreneur I've known for almost 20 years now he has been at this all through multiple ways of innovation, multiple security paradigm stacks, not new the problem, great time for you, Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you for having me. >> So I've known you and knowing your father as well for almost 25 plus years, you have been at this in one form or another with security and the waves are different, I mean there's different the web wave there's different architectures I mean people call it internet 3.0 whatever they're just different evolutionary steps, now is the killer time because we're seeing the most action. You got web, internet, mobile, global, new economics, new money the stakes are higher it's not not just like some isolated box, you got cloud. This is the time to harvest the work you've been doing, give us an overview. >> Absolutely you know I've been at this my whole career, I started down this path in 1990. Doing digital rights management micro transactions and video games and was part of the formation that Trusted Computing group in the 2000s and helped shipped 1.4 billion PCs with hardware security on the motherboard of the PC that still out there today. Started with started Rivets in 2013 to really go after, how do we enable the hardware security and mobile devices? And just about instantaneously ran into the blockchain and at my first Bitcoin conference, which was the Miami Bitcoin conference about a half an hour into it, it dawned on me two things. One, we were talking a lot about crypto but nobody was talking about cybersecurity and there's a gap between those just because we talk crypto all the time doesn't mean that we know what we're doing in cyber and the other one that was true as, oh my God, I've been looking for this for the last 10 years, which is how do we enable the user to own their own keys? And I don't mean like single keys on each device. I mean, the root key that controls all the other keys on all their devices. This is a super interesting space, we're just the very beginning of it in some ways the Bitcoin side the sort of value or or money side is the demo, the real opportunity is, this is the infrastructure that's going to replace how we do normal enterprise computing. >> Yeah. >> And the end of PC computing, we're about to have a new paradigm, blockchain-- >> I agree with you as an infrastructure shift over because the efficiencies that are gained and the disruption around what's not efficient, whether it's venture capital or infrastructure, IoT, whatever the supply chain or the decentralized way is the way to make it efficient, so it's an opportunity. Every entrepreneur that I know that is licking their chops going, wow, I can come in here and and create value. The mainstream adoptions around this complexity around use to your point, and then the fear of being hacked the cybersecurity piece whether it's for money, or a a hostile actor. >> But think of it in a different way. Security, nobody cares about security, nobody buys security, nobody wants security, security is UI. So if I asked you what your favorite multi factor authentication experience, you think like fingerprints and all this kind of stuff, it's not true, the send button is your favorite one, dial the number and push then and it just works. It works everywhere in the world works every time you've taught mom how to use it and the kids how to use it. It's simple, so why, so we would never use like, dial the number and we're going to use AI and big data to determine whether your phone is in the right condition to complete the call. And then a message is going to come up and say, would you please breathe deeply and calm down, because you're clearly agitated, I can't complete your call for you at this time. (laughing) Like, you've never used that phone, so why are we going to use that for the rest of our enterprise? >> I just sent you a pin number on your phone that you can't use before you can make the call. Again, I agree, it should be under the wire. It should be transparent security should be native, always on. >> That's right. >> And that's what you're getting at, okay. In your opinion, where are we in the progress because again, I think this connects the dots for your career, what you've worked on the itch you've been scratching in security because you have the perfect storm, you have full mobility penetration, you have commerce on top of it, and you have full global connectedness those three things alone make a-- >> And we have decentralization, so the thing that's important in blockchain is it's important remember, while the data on a chain is immutable, we know we can seal inside a little envelope a message and sign it and we write it to a chain it never changes. What we don't know is whether the data written to the chain was intended so all the information on all the blockchains is fake news. It's important to understand that we, if we take a blockchain to court try and prove something, all we can prove with the data hasn't changed. I have absolutely no idea whether your private key was written on the bathroom wall or stored in Fort Knox. And so if you try and record something on chain, your defense is always ah somebody stole my private key. Or if I'm trying to defend that you didn't do it on chain, somebody stole his private key, so actually the date on the chain is fake. It's real it was signed by a private key, but we have no knowledge to the quality of the private key and if you told the blockchain community that we got to go get your Windows log files to see whether or not your key was compromised at the time and the windows log files are the way we secure all blockchains. We're not going to get there, so the problem is-- >> That's a roadblock for sure, no doubt. >> Yeah, so the problem is that blockchains, are decentralized therefore, they're censorship proof. All of network security is censorship, therefore, blockchain is network security proof. Oops. So everything we spent in the last trillion dollars in cyber security doesn't work on blockchain Unless I run private chains, all a private chain is running inside the enterprise security while using all Juniper firewalls to secure your chain. That's not what we're talking about, We're talking about a decentralized solution. >> So match the security for pro posture for the architecture that you're working on. >> So we are going to have to do for the first time something that's crazy, we're going to have to do security commerce, which is when we form an instruction 'cause blockchains aren't authentication either, this isn't about logging into a node, getting a web page and filling out a form, no this is about sending an instruction. So, a blockchain instruction, a nuclear launch code, an e-commerce transaction, an IoT instruction like turn the lights on to 50% are all the same thing, it's an instruction based paradigm so it's not only about protecting the key but also the protection of the instruction that tells the system what to do and so in order to do that, the device that creates the instruction has to be a known device. Today we run our whole world, all our critical infrastructure, everything on unknown compute. When you turn this machine on, you didn't check to see it wasn't run by the North Koreans and you can't tell. >> Yeah, they could be in there, they probably are. >> Absolutely, more so than you would want to know. >> So what whereas the answer on this so get to the, cut to the chase here in your opinion, as the people figure out okay, we have all this great hardware that was built for a certain generation, now I'm using it as mission critical in my life, it's integrated to my lifestyle with my watch, my computer, my phone, now my in house Siri, portal, Facebook thing. >> So we need to get away from Apple's embracing of the CompuServe model, where you have a mobile phone that is a terminal, when you log into apps and your identity is based on your login to your phone. We don't actually check to see if the phone is really your phone. And we need to move to the concept of mobile, where it's a device identity network where services are delivered, not based on the username and password, but based on the identity of the device and really, ultimately, we need to get to what looks like an IoT network, which is a device identity network with messaging as the primary protocol. So secure messages sent. Fundamentally, we need to demote the importance of user authentication and promote the importance of device identity, so that I have a known device and a known condition with known controls that is producing the instructions that are sent to the chain. Ideally, you'd like in every chain, a second hash. And that second hash represents a manifest of controls that were in place, so I checked to see I was in the building, I checked to see who's still an employee, I checked to see my devices working properly, I check to see the trust infrastructure in the hardware of my devices working properly, and that gives me a hash I can write that to chain with the same immutable transaction, now I can prove that John's device in this condition with these controls wrote this transaction. >> Authentication powered the last architecture blockchain to your point about being you know, you don't know what's on the data needs to have an identity model for the signatures. >> For the robot. >> For the robot. >> For the robot. So some people like oh my god, but what if I lose my phone and the most important thing is you notice. If I steal your private keys you don't notice I still your phone like I just touch your phone. It makes you feel nervous, >> Yeah. (laughing) It's a very, but that's 100,000 years. >> I know when I leave my phone home I turn around soon as am three feet the driveway I'm like, okay, go back, get the phone. >> And so that's cyber security training it starts when you're 18 months old, when somebody gives you an important object you're not supposed to forget places like heaven forbid you remove the fuzzy rabbit from the three year old, you can lose an arm, right. So that model buying device, the good news is the trusted computing standards of the world have given us embedded hardware security in the chip sets as a standard capability in every ARM processor. Now in every Intel processor, we can turn these capabilities that have been deployed in these devices. We turn them on, provide an effective hardware based wallet for all of crypto. >> How does the hardware wallet work in your vision? Because I think most people generally and me included would say, look I love crypto but I'm busy got my four kids, two are in college, two or in high school and running around you're running around, bottom line is I got my key, my cold storage, I get keys everywhere, I forgot where I put my damn keys where's my key anyway I ended up writing and I post it. Who knows? >> I want to believe your keys are your collection of devices. So we've actually just done a recent relationship with Telefonica we showed two weeks ago, a dual Root of Trust handset, so half of your key is protected by the SIM architecture in your phone, half of your key is protected by the manufactured ARM processor in your, in your handset. So I have two separate routes of trust. I'm not trusting the carrier, I'm not trusting the manufacturer, they have to work in cooperation, the owner owns the keys, then I want to backup those keys. So why not, now that I have multiple routes of trust in my device, they can talk to my other devices, So we think of your household of devices as your key, not your single super phone. So every time I make a new wallet, you're right. You're running around, you didn't think about it, You don't want to write down 12 words, you're out at Starbucks, you shouldn't be writing the 12 words down on the surveillance camera at Starbucks. That would be a bad plan, Instead, you want your device to just communicate out to your other devices. So imagine in the future I lose my phone I can shut it off by calling my carrier and then I want to Make a new phone, maybe I've got to go like push a button in my Tesla push a button on my smart refrigerator. And my wife has to push a button or my girlfriend, or whatever the complications we all have. (laughing) And that's what allows me to recreate, not just my blockchain keys, but my Marriott keys, my car keys, my refrigerator keys, my these keys and we're going to have lots of keys for all this stuff. >> And the hardware is key in your opinion, got to have the hardware. >> Right, the reason why you have hardware is because, we can measure that the hardware hasn't changed so we can have a hardware Root of Trust, something that we know is anchored in silicon, in iron and then, or really in copper, and then from that we can build a stack that says we know this hasn't changed because if it's cast in the ground now we can build up from there each step and know that this measured environment is running properly. >> So people want be concerned, obviously Bloomberg had a story this week about China putting a mod chip on super micro boxes that's hardware. How do you talk to that, because I'm now saying, hey, I love the Root of Trust concept you guys are awesome, great job, but what about being hacked by someone else-- >> Well let's assume hacks continue on in time, I think the ultimate disinfectant in this is identity of the device, so give me a list of where 100% of those computers are. And are they in any critical systems that you have? So you're running DHS, and you've got 1.2 million servers across your network? Can you tell me 100% of the machines, that have that capability on them? Now that you know that model 45 had that. So we have an example for this VIN numbers in cars have been a great example of how we've improved the quality of cars, not that we aren't stupid humans and we build stuff that breaks or doesn't work and people die, we just want to know, that if he dies in his car that I don't want to drive the same car he drove without fixing whatever it is they're broken your car. >> So unique ID for the car, an asset. >> Yeah. And so tracking that, yep, we have it for lots of things. We don't have it for PCs, if you ask the average organization, please give me a list of the software that runs your corporation, they have no idea. >> Yeah, and the same thing with data to the GDPR thing, all these regulations, >> Right, because all, so GDPR is a great example of where now I need to prove I had controls in place in order to show that my data is properly-- >> They didn't know they had a server out there. >> I don't want to audit once a year, I want to check every time I do a transaction, was the person and employee did they have data rest in their machine, did they. So we can use the concepts of GDPR regulation to press this idea that I've provable controls at a transactional level for every instruction that's done. I want to know that I have known compute, if you had to write policy for the federal government, it's only known computers connected to sensitive networks and data. That doesn't require rocket science to understand. It's like, don't hook anonymous unknown computers you picked up out in the parking lot and tie them to the nuclear launch codes, that would be a bad plan. Like, let's start with at least machines we know and that are running software we know and that we've tested them so that we know they're running what we expect and they're working correctly, then let's use them for critical systems. So let's talk about the, and want to just finish up this segment on looking at what you're saying, which is a whole new operating model is coming really fast. The old model that's being operate is run by huge companies, Apple, Amazon, IT departments all around the world, governments, so there's going to be some resistance is going to have to be some change, that change is going to be disruptive. How do you see it playing out, you see people waking up going it's inevitable or you see a train wreck or collision. >> Now I think we have to create a transition. I spent a decade trying to create the train wreck and that didn't work very well, we shipped the technology and every PC. What we've done here is we're making it possible for you measure the integrity of a device in a mobile phone, and then you can hold keys in it. But I can apply policies or rules to those keys and those policies can talk to all of my old external systems. So I can ask all my network security stack, Where is this device, is this person an employee? Is my organization feeling good today, before I let you use the key. >> You bring program ability and state into-- >> Right, it's like you drag along the whole network security stack, and all their API controls and their SIEMs and let's hook Watson up and watch the whole network and apply that as a rule to a case. So now I can sit in Starbucks, and my device checks to see my organization's good, and then logs me into Gmail. I didn't have to tell Gmail to ask whether I was an employee, so I can have a mobile phone that says only log on if you're on the nuclear submarine and it'll work and I don't have to tell GitHub that check to see whether he's on a nuclear submarine. They just have to know that this two factor authentication is external, what's making that possible is that two factor authentication and all the services is fundamentally device registration, and as we mature that as the industry matures, those standards it provides the vehicle for all the services to incorporate a device component to the authentication strategy and then we can engage the robot to make that device smarter. >> Robot being the machine. >> Our device. >> Great to have you on, give the quick plug, what's going on Rivets real give us a quick. >> So Rivets is a fun company going after building these tools, we have a great partnership with Telefonica, we're extending it to other carriers as well. And our mission here is to bring the next billion people the blockchain by giving them a hardware based wallet for crypto, for IoT, for cloud in 100% of the mobile devices that are shipped and use the carriers as a mechanism to deliver that to us. >> You bring value that carries you also help the users make that usability peace secure. If you can pull that off, man I'd have a parade on Main Street for you. We need that. >> We desperately need this. We are so ready for our digital life to become simpler and safer for the user, And really for the services, it allows them to have more valuable data. So it's the combination of those two things, it's a win both for the consumer and for the services. >> Well, let's hope it can be a seamless transition rather than a train wreck collision. I'm John Furrier we here at talking security at Hoshocon, the inaugural blockchain secure, the first blockchain security conference am here with Steven Sprague CEO Rivets, hot, hot company in the space with many, many years experience. Time is ripe, right now the time is perfect for you. Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for coming on, we're back with more after this short break. (electronic music)
SUMMARY :
Brought to you by Hosho. The first inaugural conference on security in the blockchain This is the time to harvest the work you've been doing, and the other one that was true as, oh my God, I've been and the disruption around what's not efficient, So if I asked you what your favorite multi factor I just sent you a pin number on your phone that and you have full global connectedness and the windows log files are the way Yeah, so the problem is that blockchains, So match the security for pro posture for of the instruction that tells the system cut to the chase here in your opinion, of the CompuServe model, where you have a mobile phone blockchain to your point about being you know, and the most important thing is you notice. It's a very, but that's 100,000 years. I'm like, okay, go back, get the phone. the three year old, you can lose an arm, right. How does the hardware wallet work in your vision? the manufacturer, they have to work in cooperation, And the hardware is key in your opinion, Right, the reason why you have hardware hey, I love the Root of Trust concept you guys are awesome, of the device, so give me a list of where 100% of the software that runs your corporation, and that are running software we know and that we've tested and then you can hold keys in it. the robot to make that device smarter. Great to have you on, give the quick plug, for crypto, for IoT, for cloud in 100% of the mobile devices You bring value that carries you also help the users So it's the combination of those two things, it's a win both Time is ripe, right now the time is perfect for you. we're back with more after this short break.
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Bradley Rotter, Rivetz | Polycon 2018
(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live, from Nassau, in the Bahamas. It's theCUBE, covering Polycon '18, brought to you by Polymath. >> Hello everyone, welcome. We're live here in the Bahamas. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of the crypto-world, blockchain, bitcoin, all kinds of tokens, token economics. I'm John Furrier, with my co-host and co-founder of SiliconANGLE and theCUBE, Dave Vellante. We're here to cover the securitization of tokens, as well as all the action in the ecosystem. What's going on with token economics? What's going on in the ICO world? Who's investing in what? Who are the players? That's our job this week. We're going to get it done in two days. Our first guest to help us kick it off is Bradley Rotter. Crypto investor for five years, been in the securities, hedge funds, financing business, over the years great perspective to kick off, from an investor point of view, what's going on. Bradley, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks for being a guest analyst to help us break down what's going on, obviously, you've got a lot of investments. You've got portfolio companies, one which you wear on your shirt on Rivetz, they've done token sale around cyber security, but as an investor in general, you're long on this game. Are you long on crypto, are you doing deals? What's going on? >> I've been very long in crypto from a very early, early time, five years ago. I heard about crypto from a 15 year old, which got my interest. I had been one of the pioneers in an Aztec class that reminds a lot of bitcoin, and that was financial futures. Remember when those came out? It was controversial, people were saying, it'll never work. I was thrown out of some of the finest banks in Chicago and New York, trying to explain to those institutions how they could use financial futures to hedge interest rate risk. It kind of reminds me now of bitcoin, but you can see the tide turning now, and it's in all the headlines. >> Yeah, I mean, we, Dave and I talk all the time about this, and that is, is that, and I'll get your thoughts on this, and get your reaction. You're seeing startups, really startups, doing token raises, and ICOs, initial coin offerings, and they need to grow. They got to build their product, then there's a roadmap. Then you got the companies that are pivoting, hey, let's just reboot with crypto, and raise a bunch of cash, and hope for the best. And then you got businesses that are growing, that really are aligned with token economics, most of the investors we talk to say that's where the action is, that okay, if they're going to be startup, then go with a hedge fund, and that's more nurturing, a lot more of a classic, you know, venture, capital-backed investment, but it's the growth companies that they're looking for. >> Yes. >> Do you see it that way, too, and what's your reaction to that? >> I think the issuance of tokens as securities is going to be a pretty big deal. And it's primarily, what I'm extremely interested in is using tokenization for infrastructure, for gigantic projects. It hasn't happened, yet, but I think I have ideas on how very large projects could be tokenized, and that gives some real advantages to the individual investor. >> Dave: You mean, like, what big projects, smart cities? Give me some examples. >> Well, this is my favorite example is that someday you'll be able to buy, you'll be able to buy a three mile stretch of a toll road in Texas. And as the owner of that three mile stretch, you'll get 25 cents a car credited every minute of the cars that are going down your stretch of toll road. You see what I'm saying. If you tokenize that infrastructure, you can then, it makes it more available to individual investors, but if you tokenize it, you can borrow against your token, your shares, if you will, you could hypothecate it, borrow against it. The tax credits for your infrastructure investment, could be tied to the token itself, and vary depending on, on the need for that particular infrastructure project and I think this administration, more than any I've ever seen, you know, is going to be very open to those kinds of ideas, and I think it's transformational. >> So that is transformational, being able to address our infrastructure problems with blockchain, (laughs) right? That's your vision. >> Exactly. >> So I want to get, Dave, your reaction. You were just in the keynote. We're here at the Polycon '18, it's put on by Polymath and Grit Capital. Two Canadian organizations, but bringing kind of the world together. You were in the keynote, they're selling a security token platform, so people can raise money with security tokens, which is really good, because SEC regulation in the US, it's a lot cleaner than the utility token, and for folks who want to learn more, go to YouTube, watch some of the videos that we've done on ICO 101. But Dave, what did you see in there? And then, Bradley you're going to get your thoughts on how you see it. >> Well a couple things. One is, and now it's biased, but the consensus in that audience, was that security tokens are going to dwarf the value of utility tokens, over time. Like massive dwarfing, number one. Number two is you're seeing a real mix of companies that are tokenizing their business. New companies, companies trying to solve problems, you know, this new internet we're building out, existing companies that are looking to transform, and have a logical reason to tokenize their business, so there's a lot of diversity going on. >> Your perspective as an investor. Security tokenization as opportunity for businesses to use and raise money and use capital. I mean, you got to secure something, I mean, security token is (laughs) >> Well this market has been so hot that investors have swayed a little bit from their typical diligence, and so forth. I think they'll soon start to realize by buying these utility tokens. In many cases, there's not much utility. In fact, you know, I ask everybody I see, have you used a utility token today? No one's really using utility tokens now. And so, we've got to keep that in mind. The carts a little bit in front of the horse. Will we use them? You know, I believe so, but we're going to have to make it really easy to use. Do we need 2000 tokens? I don't think so, it's going to be complicated. >> Dave: So what do you look for as an investor? As a reasonable profile, or an attractive profile, is it equity in the company, is it a rev share, or is it the utility of the function? >> I have done both. My first utility token was a company called MaidSafe. And I heard about MaidSafe from a 14 year old bitcoin miner, I always listen to 14 year olds, also. (all laugh) This young man said, this young man had approached me after I was giving a speech on cryptocurrency. We went out for a drink, in this case Diet Coke, and he told me about this company called MaidSafe. I went home and started looking at it, I was up til 4:30 in the morning, and a week later I was climbing on a plane to Troon, Scotland to go meet the developers. What was MaidSafe, what caught my eye? MaidSafe was a distributed, decentralized, peer-to-peer, self-authenticating, self-managed network that runs on math and logic, all the data's encrypted, shard-ed, sent around to the nodes around the world, and then the map of where those shards go is then encrypted again. It's NSA-proof. >> Beautiful. Dave you brought this up the other day, and we talked about it at the pool, we did a segment on a kick off about this event. We've been talking about digital transformation, vis-a-vis some of the old guard companies, the either central authorities, and/or incumbent laggards, or leaders. This token economics is part of the digital transformation that a lot of people aren't seeing. Right, so, you know, you said you'd been kicked out of many banks, you've still got these crazy ideas that are actually the ones that might actually be the best. And we think they are. Your thoughts, Dave, as you look at, you know, the digital transformation. Oh you got to have a digital business. You need to use the power of data. Data's the new oil, you know, cloud computing. Now you got this new variable coming in, decentralized, distributed data, what's your thoughts? >> I mean, I see, you know, we talk on theCUBE, we talk about SAAS, and cloud, and mobile, and social, and big data, that's yesterday. That's yesterday's news. To me, the future is, you know, machine intelligence, it certainly starts with data, and it starts with, And crypto, launching it plays a key part of building out that next wave of technology. And I see every industry being disrupted at different paces, as a function of, maybe, the risk within that industry. You've certainly seen it publishing, media, music. You really haven't seen it yet in banking, healthcare, but these are the industries that need the most transformation. What are your thoughts, Bradley? >> Well the banks better be paying attention to this. I think, if we're right about cryptocurrency, banks will become as plentiful and as useful as Blockbuster Video stores. >> I mean, I got to tell you, in my experience, the old guard, the disruption is going to come really fast. I think, and my prediction is that, and again, this is based on my history in the computer industry, is if you look at the billion dollar ideas, they're the dumbest ideas, at first. >> Yeah (laughs) >> I mean you go down the line. Google, we don't need another search engine, we want portals. Keyword navigation, the one I did, no, who would ever pay for a link on a search result? That's the dumbest idea. Airbnb, you're going to sell out your home? That's the dumbest idea I ever heard of. The dumbest ideas actually might be the best if you look at them. And when I say dumbest, it might be ones that don't make sense. Like you mentioned that one about Scotland, that technically makes sense, I get that. But someone in the mainstream would be like, huh, what? I got to do all this stuff? It's just. So it's kind of what's going on right now, isn't it? >> And if there's any fabric that connects all of those different ecospheres that you were talking about, I think it's going to be cybersecurity is extremely important. It's not generally discussed at these kind of events, but I view this just as much as a cybersecurity play, as I do a digital currency play. And let me expand on that. The most valuable data in the world used to be in the Pentagon. No longer. Two reasons basically, one-- [John] They've been hacked (laughs) >> All the data's already gone. But, two, if you steal the plans for the next generation F-39 joint strike force fighter, good for you, there's only two buyers for that. I believe the most valuable data in the world right now is a bitcoin private key. And people are coming for them. Members of the bitcoin community are being hunted, singled out and hunted to try to get their bitcoins. It's a real distinct phenomena. >> I like that term you used, fabric, because we kind of envision this fabric emerging where you've got industries which are sort of vertical-sliced, and then you've got these horizontal technologies, whether it's cloud, security, there's a data layer, and people are building businesses on top of them, and obviously tokenizing those businesses. We talked last night a little bit, and you guys are networking guys. You understand the challenges of distributed apps, distributed database, the latency challenges. You're a little bit bearish on the market right now. Is it because of those technical challenges, is it because there's so much Bubbalicious, you know, attitude going on? What are your thoughts? >> I've been a little bit bearish on bitcoin for the very short run, and of course it's, it's been in the headlines. At year end, it was the front headline in every journal you read. The reason I've been a little bit negative is purely for a tax perspective. And these, Let me explain why, these millennials that I collect, and I keep them around me just to guide me and, and give me a glimpse of the future. Most of the people at this conference, believe that when they buy bitcoin and sell it, and buy Ethereum and sell Ethereum and buy Cardano, that those are all like kind exchanges and no tax will be due, until they ever come back into Fiat dollars. They're absolutely incorrect. Absolutely incorrect. And so-- >> So they're exposed? >> They're really exposed, that's why I believe cryptocurrencies in general, bitcoin specifically have been very weak this year and probably will remain weak until April 16th. People are getting their tax bill which is difficult to calculate with thousands of transactions, in some cases. They're getting their tax bill, and they're going to have to sell some of their crypto holdings to pay Uncle Sam. It's a US phenomena, but-- >> But it's like people who exercised their options in, you know, 2000-- >> Exactly. >> And held on to the shares and then got crushed. >> The tax liability is fixed at December 31, but now the value of their collateral has gone down. It's a problem. >> Bradley, thanks for coming on, kicking off the show with us, getting your vision on investing. Dave good to hear about the keynote. More live coverage coming here from Polycon '18. The stampede is on, this is the show around security tokens in the Bahamas, theCUBE. We'll be right back with more live coverage after this short break. (upbeat music)
SUMMARY :
brought to you by Polymath. What's going on in the ICO world? one which you wear on your shirt on Rivetz, and it's in all the headlines. and raise a bunch of cash, and hope for the best. and that gives some real advantages Dave: You mean, like, what big projects, smart cities? of the cars that are going down your stretch of toll road. being able to address our infrastructure problems but bringing kind of the world together. and have a logical reason to tokenize their business, I mean, you got to secure something, The carts a little bit in front of the horse. that runs on math and logic, all the data's encrypted, Data's the new oil, you know, cloud computing. To me, the future is, you know, machine intelligence, Well the banks better be paying attention to this. the old guard, the disruption is going to come really fast. I mean you go down the line. I think it's going to be cybersecurity is extremely important. I believe the most valuable data in the world I like that term you used, fabric, and give me a glimpse of the future. and they're going to have to sell some but now the value of their collateral has gone down. kicking off the show with us,
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Yo Sub Kwon, Hosho | HoshoCon 2018
>> From the Hard Rock Hotel in Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering HOSHO CON 2018. Brought to you by HOSHO. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to theCUBE special live coverage here in Las Vegas for the first ever, Blockchain Security Conference. Really discussing security as an industry, it's called HOSHO CON, put on by HOSHO. We're here with the Co-Founder and CEO of HOSHO and main supporters of sponsoring this project or event HOSHO CON. We have Yo Sub Kwon, who is the CEO and Co-Founder. Good to see you. >> Good to see you, good to be here. Hey thanks for putting this on. I've interviewed Hartej, your Co-founder, in Toronto the Futures conference. We've had many great conversations on theCUBE. But when we talked about HOSHO CON, this conference, he really wanted to do it as an industry conference. Not as just a HOSHO event. >> (Yo agrees) >> This is really key to you guys culture here at HOSHO your company. >> Yeah. >> Take a minute and explain the event. Why this event? Why the format? And that it is open? >> I mean basically, you know, like we've been to just so many events over the, like I think we've done like 80 events this year, and the topic of conversation is, you know, around investing, it's around ICO's, it's around all these things and security touches all of those and I just feel like, and we all felt it and like the other security companies felt it too, that it just wasn't a topic that was discussed in great enough depth especially given the increasing amounts of hacks and theft and all these problems that relate directly to security. And I just feel like it's really important for us as an industry to discuss, you know, what security practices are good? What should be done? How you should do them? What resources are available to companies to learn more about security? And what resources don't exist and need to be developed? And that needs to be done in a collaborative way. Well congratulations and props to you guys for really sponsoring this and taking the leadership role in the industry but again you guys are humble and it's a good way to do it. Is to have these conversations. So thank you for doing that, appreciate it and thanks for having theCUBE here. We really appreciate it. The question I want to ask you is: I've noticed a trend here, first of all a lot of smart people here, so it's like, it's not a massive, no IPO, ICO pitch competitions, this is really down and dirty security. >> Yeah. >> Okay, black hat, white hat but it's kind of a intercultural vibe it's the community. >> Yeah. >> Coming together. But also two kind of tracks are developing there's the crypto security and then there's cyber security threats coming up. Because you said it's touching on all these points. And you're hearing, even hearing a little bit of IOT and hardware, we had Rivetz on earlier the CEO Steven Sprague so a lot of different solutions and a lot of different opportunities, a lot of different vulnerabilities. Can you explain the landscape of how the players are here, where are they coming from? >> Okay, yeah. >> What's their backgrounds? >> Absolutely I mean there are definitely, a lot of brilliant minds here and that was one of the goals of HOSHO CON is to bring people that are of all different, you know, parts of the industry whether they're, they're layers or they're information security experts or they're, you now, regulators or they're it just, developers bring them all into the same room and to kind of discuss these problems that you know, plague all of us and you know a developer's going to have a much different perspective and solution than a lawyer and but those thing can work together and the problems might still be the same. And so we've been in the industry for just like, even though HOSHO's a young company, the people that are on our team, myself, I've been in, I got into Bitcoin eight years ago, like we just have this network of people that are in the industry, have seen the kind of like cyclic nature of, you know, like a gigantic influx of people come in, these problems arise where, you know, entrepreneurs are like really focused on like growing, getting traction and then they focus less on their security, it goes to the wayside and then these big hacks happen and then the industry kind of smartens up and everything you know starts getting a little bit closer to what seems you know maybe safe or like approachable for a growth trajectory and then another gigantic influx happens and then the same thing. And so what we really need to do is like when that next big influx happens is to have standards in place to have things that an entrepreneur can just turn to and be like: "Okay, this is what I need to do "if I want to be considered credible in this industry "and I want to protect my users and my investors." >> Can you talk about some of the top conversations that are going on here, because I think that's a great point? People want you know legitimacy, they want solutions that work, that are credible and then maintain kind of, I won't say enterprise grade, but commercial grade reliable so that people can focus on building up their companies and or preparing for the growth. What is some of the top conversations? >> A lot of it's just learning about what other people do, like even with like Rivetz, we're putting, they're using the trust executions based on like what's already on billions of devices and you know basically letting people know that that space exists on this hardware and that they can be used for all these different purposes to validate you know data going in. And, you know, there's been conversations around custody. I was on a panel earlier today about custody and basically the way I felt like it left off and the conclusion was that there is a long way to go on custody but it is incredibly crucial. Big institutional players that want to enter the markets and want to put their money into a regulated custodian they're, it's difficult to do so even with registered custodian's existing because the limitations that they have in understanding the technology and being able to provide support for all the different digital assets that exist. >> So we're reporting this morning the SEC herein the US has tightened the noose on the ICO-funded startups. I think the story originated out of Decrypt Media but essentially the SEC, Securities and Exchange Commission, is cracking down and they're going back and saying: "You got to refund some of that money." >> Yeah. >> Because of violations. That's one regulatory thing but there's also, there's software that writes these smart contracts. You guys are in that business. The software is software money, security is critical. How stable is this becoming in your mind? What's the to do items? How should a company who want's to either use the ICO process or and or use token economics to fuel their business model they got to be secure on the business front? >> Yeah. So basically smart contracts were so new when we first got in to it that people just didn't know how to develop securely in them and so there were just critical mistakes being made all over the place. We've seen over the last year a lot of improvement on that front, more libraries are being developed and people are writing consistently more secure contracts. But now what we're seeing is contracts are getting increasingly complex and with additional complexity, because it's software there's room for, you know more problems and I think that it's going to, it's going to be an interesting challenge going forward, there's thing like formal verification I think that has a huge place in the future regarding smart contracts but it's there's a lot of tools that need to be developed that's one of the things that we worked on and we're really excited about is Meadow Suite because that's software that let's you develop smart contracts. We built it intentionally with security analysis in mind and then we made it more full featured to become a development tool for writing smart contracts and developing a protocols. And so I think the more of those type of things that you see come out that bring it more to feature parity to what software developers are used to if they're say building a web application it makes it a lot easier to adhere to good practices and write secure code. >> And also kind a not have to do manual audits? >> Yeah. >> I mean at the end of the day you want to get to some sort of automation. >> Absolutely. >> Framework. >> I mean we've already automated a lot of the things that we do. But and there's still a lot left to do but we know that there is a lot left that can be automated and we hope that eventually the tools are just put into developers hands were they can do most of that work themselves. >> Yo Sub take your CEO hat off from HOSHO for a minute put your industry hat on. >> Okay. >> What are some of the names here that, and conversations, topics that you find interesting personally? >> Okay, I mean. >> (John laughs) >> A lot of people that we brought here are like our friends, we know them right? And so like I was talking to. >> Your kind of celebrities. >> I was talking with like TokenMarket earlier and like, you know, we're partners with them and they really, they're really great guys and like some of the stuff that they are trying to do and you know just listening to what other companies are trying to do with like security tokens that seem to be the thing that really moving forward. And I'm kind of fascinated like, we try to stay agnostic you know like when we're like looking at all these different technologies. But then like someone explains something to you and you're awe man that's really cool. >> Yeah. (both laughs) >> And there's some good minds here. What's the coolest thing you've seen so far? >> Well I've been locked in, I've been locked behind doors in a lot of meetings so far but the, let's see, I think what Unchained Capital is working on is really sweet. They basically, I mean like I think their business model makes a lot of sense. Like basically they hold your crypto's so you maintain exposure to it and then they'll issue you a loan. They can like turn around a loan like in 24 hous, you just hand then a bunch of Bitcoin and then they'll just give you cash and then you can you know you have that cash and then you still maintain exposure through crypto if you pay it all back you get your crypto back. (laughs) >> So it's collateralized crypto? >> Exactly I mean like that makes perfect sense to me. Like you know it's just like as long as you can liquidate that crypto and Bitcoin or Ethereum like those are big enough markets now where you can easily liquidate. Well that's awesome. Thanks for putting on this event and I want to get back to HOSHO. How's business going? You're the CEO, Commander in Chief, what's going on with the company? How's things going? >> Yeah. >> Quick update. >> Well everything's crazy right, like we're moving quickly and the next steps are Asia. We really want to basically penetrate those markets. Only, we don't have as much coverage there as we would like but having spent some time there earlier this year doing some reconnaissance it's a crazy, crazy space over there. There's a lot of action happening, there's a lot of adoption. People are really enthusiastic about it but security almost seems like six months to a year behind North America and Europe as far as what exchanges are requiring, what investors are demanding of their portfolio companies. And so I think that now that they've had such major hacks happen over the last six months they're starting to realize. >> Major hacks talking about 60 Million. I mean I heard numbers up to 300 plus million. >> Yeah. >> I mean these are it's not like five dollars out of your wallet. >> Yeah. >> This is massive. >> Like over a billion dollars has been stolen in some capacity and like it's been pretty crazy yeah, so. >> Where's the big vulnerability? Exchanges, is it the DApps, where's the holes? >> They're all over the place but the biggest numbers definitely come from exchanges. Exchanges just need to be far more responsible and just, I feel like a lot of it is just negligence. They're growing so quickly that they don't pay attention to, you know, putting resources into educating their staff on really simple security practices. You know things like phishing and social engineering, like things that were good security practices still are good security practices. And a lot of those attacks are not even anything like some new exploit of a new technology it's the same kind of thing of like phishing, social engineering, sims swapping, you know, poor user access control, bad passwords. >> I mean the basics. >> Yeah. >> But this is what growth does to you you've point earlier. As more people start feeling growth there's more exposure service area wise. >> Yeah. >> New dynamics are kicking in. >> Well I'm starting to see new exchanges that are popping up that are you know taking security very seriously and the way they're treating it is that is their differentiator but in my mind like security shouldn't be a differentiator. Everybody should. >> (John laughs) >> If you're an exchange and you're holding massive amounts of other people's assets you should take security very seriously. That should just be a default, a standard. >> You have to be differentiating strategy with security it's not, it doesn't make sense. >> Marketing 101 you shouldn't be different, it should be standard. (both laughs) >> I mean if that's the state of the art, this is the problem. This highlights the problem. >> It does yeah. >> Alright so what's, what's the future for this event? How do you guys see this unfolding? Obviously this is the first inaugural event here HOSHO CON, How do you see it evolving? >> I think a lot of conversations should hopefully spur from this and we want to make this a yearly event. So we're definitely going to take a lot of the feedback from people that attended and see what they want, what they really enjoyed, what they really want to talk about. And even I think, a lot, since we're recoding all of the talks we'll be putting them up online at some point and I think it'd be really good to see like what the transition is like next year from like, where we were in some of these problems and addressing those problems you know a year from now. Like I think that will be really exciting. >> You guys are expanding in Europe, HOSHO good job with that. Who's the kind of clientele that you guys have? Is it ICO's? Is it companies? It is enterprise? Who are your target customers? >> So we have a lot of companies that are ICO's for sure. We have more exchanges and protocols joining those ranks. And then we are trying to move into enterprise as well. We made a partnership with Telefónica and developed a partnership with them to be able to sell to more enterprise clients and what they need. >> And what's your value proposition that you guys are offering? >> We are, well, we do smart contract audits, we do penetration testing. Those are things that a lot of companies in this space need. And then also we've been helping with security architecture and cryptocurrency assessments. >> And tooling, tools for development. >> And tooling, yeah we're trying to do our part. I mean we can't and won't do it alone but we try to develop things that, if we develop anything that's useful from a security perspective, we try and make it available for everyone. >> Yo Sub thanks for coming on theCUBE, appreciate your time and congratulations, it's a great event. >> Thank you. >> HOSHO CON sponsored by HOSHO and other's in the industry, it's an industry event, it's not just their company, it's their friends all coming together to solve the major problems with security, making it standard, making it safe and supporting the growth with the community. It's theCUBE covering live here in Vegas. I'm John Furrier stay with us for more CUBE coverage after this short break. (upbeat electronic music)
SUMMARY :
Brought to you by HOSHO. and main supporters of sponsoring this project in Toronto the Futures conference. This is really key to you guys culture here Take a minute and explain the event. and the topic of conversation is, you know, a intercultural vibe it's the community. and a lot of different opportunities, and to kind of discuss these problems that you know, and or preparing for the growth. and you know basically letting people know that but essentially the SEC, Securities and Exchange Commission, What's the to do items? And so I think the more of those type of things that you see I mean at the end of the day But and there's still a lot left to do Yo Sub take your CEO hat off from HOSHO for a minute A lot of people that we brought here are like our friends, and like some of the stuff that they are trying to do What's the coolest thing you've seen so far? and then you can you know you have that cash Exactly I mean like that makes perfect sense to me. and the next steps are Asia. I mean I heard numbers up to 300 plus million. I mean these are it's not and like it's been pretty crazy yeah, so. and just, I feel like a lot of it is just negligence. does to you you've point earlier. and the way they're treating it is of other people's assets you should You have to be differentiating strategy with security Marketing 101 you shouldn't be different, I mean if that's the state of the art, and addressing those problems you know a year from now. Who's the kind of clientele that you guys have? and what they need. and cryptocurrency assessments. I mean we can't and won't do it alone and congratulations, it's a great event. and supporting the growth with the community.
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