>> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. Brought to you by RedHat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Stu: Welcome back to theCUBE, I'm Stu Miniman. My cohost for three days of coverage is John Troyer. We're here at KubeCon CloudNativeCon in San Diego, over 12,000 in attendance and happy to welcome back a CUBE alumni and veteran of generations of the stacks that we've seen come together and change over the time, Sheng Liang, who is the co-founder and CEO of Rancher Labs. Thanks so much, great to see you. >> Shang: Thank you Stuart, is very glad to be here. >> All right, so you know Kubernetes, flash to the pan nobody's all that excited about it. I mean, we've seen all these things come and go over the years, Sheng. No but seriously, the excitement is palpable. Every year, you know, so many more people, so many more projects, so much more going on. Help set the stage for you, as to what you see and the importance today of kind of CloudNative in general and you know, this ecosystem specifically. >> Yeah you're so right though, Stuart. Community as a whole and Kubernetes has really come a long way. In the early days, Kubernetes was a uh, you know, somewhat of a technical community, lot of Linux people. But not a whole lot of end users. Not a whole lot of Enterprise customers. I walk in today and just the kind of people I've met, I've probably talked to fifty people already who are just really at the beginning of the show and uh there's a very very large number Enterprise customers. And this does feel like Kubernetes has crossed the chasm and headed in to the mainstream Enterprise market. >> Yeah it's interesting you know I've talked to you know plenty of the people here probably if you brought up things like OpenStack and CloudStack they wouldn't even know what we were talking about. The wave of containerization really seemed to spread far and wide. At Rancher you've done some surveys, give us some of the insight. What are you seeing? You've talked to plenty of customers. Give us where we are with the maturity. >> Definitely, definitely. Enterprise Kubernetes adoption is ready for prime time. You know the So what we're really seeing is some of the early challenges a few years ago a lot of people were having problems with just installing Kubernetes. They were literally just making sure to get people educated about container as a concept. Those have been overcome. Now, uh, we're really facing next generation of growth. And people solve these days solve problems like how do I get my new applications onboarding to Kubernetes. How do I really integrate Kubernetes into my multicloud and hybrid-Cloud strategy? And as Enterprise's need to perform computing in places beyond just the data centers and the cloud, we're also seeing tremendous amount of interest in running Kubernetes on the Edge. So those are some of the major findings of our survey. >> John: That's great. So Sheng I'd love for you to kind of elaborate or elaborate for us where Rancher fits into this. Right. Rancher is, you've been around, you've a mature stack of technology and also some new announcements today so I'd kind of love for you to kind of tell us how you fit in to that landscape you just described. >> Absolutely. This is very exciting and very very fast changing industry. So one of the things that Rancher is able to play very well is we're really able to take work with the community, take the latest and greatest open source technology and actually develop open source products on top this and make that technology useful and consumable for Enterprise at large. So the way we see it, to make Kubernetes work we really need to solve problems at three levels. At the lowest level, the industry need at lot of compliant and compatible certified Kubernetes distros and services. So that's table stakes now. Rancher is a leader in providing CNCF certified Kubernetes distro. We actually provide two of them. One of them is called RKE - Rancher Kubernetes Engine. Something we've been doing it for years. It's really one of the easiest to use and most widely deployed Kubernetes distributions. But we don't force our customers to only use our Kubernetes distribution. Rancher customers can use whatever CNCF certified Kubernetes distribution or Kubernetes services they want. So a lot of our customers use RKE(Rancher Kubernetes Engine) but they also use, when they go to the cloud, they use cloud hosted Kubernetes Services like GKE and EKS. There are really a lot of advantages in using those because cloud providers will help you run these Kubernetes clusters for free. And in many cases they even throw in the infrastructure it takes to run the Kubernetes masters and etcd databases for free. If you're in the cloud, there's really no reason not to be using these Kubernetes services. Now there's one area that Rancher ended up innovating at the Kubernetes distros, despite having these data center focus and cloud focus Kubernetes distros and services. And that is one of our, one of the two big announcements today. And that's called K3S. K3S is a great open source project. It's probably one of the most exciting open source projects in the Kubernetes ecosystem today. And what we did with K3S is we took Kubernetes that's been proven in data center and cloud and we brought it everywhere. So with K3S you can run Kubernetes on a Raspberry Pi. You can run Kubernetes in a surveillance camera. You can run Kubernetes in an ATM machine. You know, we have customers trying to run now Kubernetes in a uh, factory floor. So it really helps us realize our vision of Kubernetes as a new Linux and you run it everywhere. >> Well that's great 'cause you talk about that simplicity that we need and if you start talking about Edge deployment, I don't have the people, I don't have the skillset, and a lot times I don't have the gear, uh, to run that. So you know, help connect the dots as to you know, what led Rancher to do the K3S piece of it and you know, what did we take out? Or what's the differences between K8S and the K3S? >> That's a great question, you know. Even the name "K3S" is actually somewhat a wordplay on K8S You know we kind of cut half of 8 away and you're left with 3. It really happened with some of our early traction we sawing some customers. I remember, in retrospect it wasn't really that long ago. It was like middle of last year, we saw a blog coming out of Chick-fil-A and a group of technical enthusiasts were experimenting with actually running uh, Kubernetes in very, in like Intel Nook servers. You know, they were talking about potentially running three of those servers in every one of their stores and at the time they were using RKE and Rancher Kubernetes Engine to do that. And they run into a lot of issues. I mean to be honest if you think about running Kubernetes in the cloud in the database center, uh these servers have a lot of resources and you also have a dedicated operations teams. You have an SRE to manage them, right? But when you really bring it out into branch offices and Edge computing locations, now all of the sudden, number one, these uh, the software now has to take a lot less resource but also you don't really have SREs monitoring them every day anymore. And you, since these, Kubernetes distro really has to be zero touch and it has to run just like a, you know like a embedded window or Linux server. And that's what K3S was able to accomplish, we were able to really take away lot of the baggage that came with having all the drivers that were necessary to run Kubernetes in the cloud and we were also able to dramatically simplify what it takes to actually start Kubernetes and operate it. >> So unsolicited, I was doing an event right before this one and I asked some people what they looking forward to here at KubeCon. And independently, two different people said, "The thing I'm most excited about is K3S." And I think it's because it's the right slice through Kubernetes. I can run it in my lab. I can run it on my laptop. I can on a stack of Raspberry Pis or Nooks, but I could also run it in production if I, you know I can scale it up >> Stu: Yeah. >> John: And in fact they both got a twinkle in their eye and said well what if this is the future of Kubernetes, like you could take this and you could run it, you know? They were very excited about it. >> Absolutely! I mean, you know, I really think, you know, as a company we survive by, and thrive by delivering the kind of innovation that pushes the market forward right? I mean, we, otherwise people are not going to look at Rancher and say you guys are the originators of Kubernetes technology. So we're very happy to be able to come up with technologies like K3S that effectively greatly broadened the addressable market for everyone. Imagine you were a security vendor and before like all you really got to do is solving security problems. Or if you were a monitoring vendor you were able to solve monitoring problems for a data center and in the cloud. Now with K3S you end up getting to solve the same problems on the Edge and in branch offices. So that's why so many people are so excited about it. >> All right so Sheng you said K3S is one of the announcements this week, what's the rest of the news? >> Yeah so K3S, RKE, and all the GKE, AKS, EKS, they're really the fundamental layer of Kubernetes everywhere. Then on top of that one of the biggest piece of innovation that Rancher labs created is the idea of multi-cluster management. A few years ago it was pretty much of a revolutionary concept. Now it's widely understood. Of course an organization is not going to have just one cluster, they're going to have many clusters. So Rancher is the industry leader for doing multi-cluster management. And these clusters could span clouds, could span data centers, now all the way out to branch offices and the Edge. So we're exhibiting Rancher on the show floor. Everyone, most people I've met here, they know Rancher because of that flash of product. Now our second announcement though is yet another level above Rancher, so what we've seen is in order to really Kubernetes to achieve the next level of adoption in the Enterprise we're seeing you know some of the development teams and especially the less skilled dev ops teams, they're kind of struggling with the learning curve of Kubernetes and also some of the associated technologies around service mesh around Knative, around, you know, CICD, so we created a project called Rio, as in Rio de Janeiro the city. And the nice thing about Rio is it packaged together all these Cloud Native technologies and then we created very easy to use, very simple to understand user experience for developers and dev ops teams. So they no longer have to start with the training course on Kubernetes, on Istio, on Knative, on Tekton, just to get productive. They can pretty much get productive on day one. So that Rio project has hit a very important milestone today, we shipped the beta release for it and we're exhibiting it at the booth as well. >> Well that's great. You know, the beta release of Rio, pulling together a lot of these projects. Can you talk about some folks that, early adopters that have been using them or some folks that have been working with the project? >> Sheng: Yeah absolutely. So I talk about some of the early adoption we're seeing for both K3S and Rio. Uh, what we see the, first of all just the market reception of K3S, as you said, has been tremendous. Couple of even mentioned to you guys today in your earlier interviews. And it is primarily coming from customers who want to run Kubernetes in places you probably haven't quite anticipated before, so I kind of give you two examples. One is actually appliance manufacture. So if you think they used to ship appliances, then you can imagine these appliances come with Linux and they would image their appliance with an OS image with their applications. But what's happening is these applications are becoming so sophisticated they're now talking about running the entire data analytics stack and AI software. So it actually takes Kubernetes not necessarily, because it's one server in a situation of appliance. Kubernetes is not really managing a cluster, but it's managing all the application components and microservices. So they ended up bundling up K3S into their appliance. This is one example. Another example is actually an ISV, that's a very interesting use case as well. So uh, they ship a micro service based application software stack and again their software involves a lot of different complicated components. And they decided to replatform their software on Kubernetes. We've all heard a lot of that! But in their case they have to also ship, they don't just run the software themselves, they have to ship the software to the end users. And most of their end users are not familiar with Kubernetes yet, right? And they don't really want to say, to install our software you go provision the Kubernetes cluster and then you operate it from now on. So what they did is they took K3S and bundled into their application as if it were an application server, almost like a modern day WebLogic and WebSphere, then they shipped the whole thing to their customers. So I thought both of these use cases are really interesting. It really elevates the reach of Kubernetes from just being almost like a cloud platform in the old days to now being an application server. And then I'll also quickly talk about Rio. A lot of interest inside Rio is around really dev ops teams who've had, I mean, we did a survey early on and we found out that a lot of our customers they deploy Kubernetes in services. But they end up building a custom experience on top of their Kubernetes deployment, just so that most of their internal users wouldn't have to take a course on Kubernetes to start using it. So they can just tell that this thing that, this is where my source code is and then every thing from that point on will be automated. So now with Rio they wouldn't have to do that anymore. Effectively Rio is the direct source to URL type of, one step process. And they are able to adopt Rio for that purpose. >> So Sheng, I want to go back to when we started this conversation. You said, you know, the ecosystem growing. That not only, you know, so many vendors here, 129 end users, members of the CNCF. The theme we've been talking about is to really, you know, it's ready for production and people are all embracing it. But to get the vast majority of people, simplicity really needs to come front and center, I think. K3S really punctuates that. What else do we need to do as an ecosystem, you know, Rancher is looking to take a leadership position and help drive this, but what else do you want to see from your peers, the community, overall to help drive this to the promise that it could deliver. >> We really see the adoption of Kubernetes is probably going to wing at three, I mean. We see most organizations go through this three step journey. The first step is you got to install and operate Kubernetes. You know, day one, day two. And I think we've got it down. With K3S it becomes so easy. With GKE it becomes one API call or one simple UI interaction. And CNCS has really stepped up and created a great, you know, compliance certification program, right? So we're not seeing the kind of fragmentation that we saw with some of the other technologies. This is fantastic. Then the second step we see is, which a lot of our customers are going through now, is now you have all the Kubernetes clusters coming from different clouds, different infrastructure, potentially on the Edge. You have a management problem. Now you all of the sudden because we made Kubernetes clusters so easy to obtain you can potentially have a sprawl. If you are not careful you might leave them misconfigured. That could expose a security issue. So really it takes Rancher, it takes our ecosystem partners, like Twistlock, like Aqua. CICD partners, like CloudBees, GitLab. Just everyone really needs to come together, make that, solve that management problem. So not only, uh, you build this Kubernetes infrastructure but then you actually going to get a lot of users and they can use the cluster securely and reliably. Then I think the third step, which I think a lot of work still remain is we really want to focus on growing the footprint of workload, of enterprise workload, in the enterprise. So there the work is honestly just getting started. Anywhere from uh, if you walk into any enterprise you know what percentage of their total workload is running on Kubernetes today? I mean outside of Google and Uber, that percentage is probably very small, right? They're probably in the minority, maybe even in single digit percentage. So, we really need to do a lot of work. You know, we need to uh, Rancher created this project called LongHorn and we also work with a lot of our ecosystem partners in persistence storage area like Portworx, StorageOS, OpenEBS. Lot of us really need to come together and solve this problem of running persistent workload. I mean there was also a lot of talk about it at the keynote this morning, I was very encouraged to hear that. That could easily double, triple the amount of workload that could bring, that could be onboarded into Kubernetes and even experiences like Rio, you know? Make it further simpler, more accessible. That is really in the DNA of Rancher. Rancher wouldn't be surviving and thriving without our insight into how to make our technology consumable and widely adopted. So a lot of work we're doing is really to drive the adoption of Kubernetes in the enterprise beyond, you know, the current state and into something I really don't see in the future, Kubernetes wouldn't be as actually widely used as say AWS or vSphere. That would be my bar for success. Hopefully in a few years we can be talking about that. >> All right, that is a high bar Sheng. We look forward to more conversations with you going forward. Congratulations on the announcement. Great buzz on K3S, and yeah, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you very much. >> For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, back with lots more coverage here from KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2019 in San Diego, you're watching theCUBE. [Upbeat music]

>> Live from Las Vegas. It's theCUBE covering AWS re:Invent 2018 brought to you by Amazon web services, Intel and their ecosystem partners. >> Good to have you here on theCUBE, as we continue our coverage at AWS re:Invent. We're at day three here in Las Vegas in the Sands Expo Hall D, and we got about a half hour. Come by and say hi to us if you would. I'm here with Rebecca Knight, John Walls, and two gentleman here to join us. One from GitLab, Brendan Jung, who is the vice president of alliances. Brendan, good to see you sir. >> Thank you for having us. >> And Alex Hale, platform engineering at Beacon Platform. >> Hello, Alex, how are you doing? >> Not bad, I'm surviving the whole experience. >> It's a test! >> Well, let's talk about the whole experience (mumbles) What have you picked up this week? >> I've picked up that AWS is going very much into this sort of enterprise space. We saw that theme last year, and I think this year it's even more so that they're really catering towards how enterprise and then big organizations are getting in. And I think that's been a big. You can see it in how they're doing their storage strategies, how they're doing their network strategies, and how they're just really targeting towards security, and compliance, and governance. And I think that's a big theme that's from last year to this year, and I think it's going to continue on. >> Yeah, they've been waving a big flag for sure telling the enterprise it's safe to come onboard the public cloud's open for ya. >> Yes. >> Oh yeah for sure. >> Brendan, if you would, you were telling a story that you worked at Google for quite some time. >> I was, yes. >> Worked on some fairly high profile projects >> there, and you've been >> Yes. at GitLab for five months now. Instant transition for ya? >> Five months, yes. >> What was behind that? >> So a couple of it is, I mean when we get down to it sometimes you're either a builder or a runner just in the way you're oriented. And I'm a builder, so the biggest thing was love building that from the ground up with Google. Amazing team they did amazing job. We got to do a lot of really fun things. Was looking for something kind of new, and I'd worked with GitLab since I ran the partner organization for a lot of the partners at Google. I had worked with them for a number of years and it's rare when you work regularly with the company that you get surprised. So the kind of the point that I was like, "Oh, I really need to look into this more deeply," is I've done detailed work with GitLab for years. And I was in a meeting with Sid, our CEO. And he kind of, "Hey, you know what we're up to." And I'm like, "Oh, of course I know what we're up to." Right, cuz that's you always answer that. I mean you don't answer the question, "No, I have no idea what you're up to." We met four weeks ago, of course I know what you're up to. And he's really humble. But simply like oh hey, you want to see me insert. Hey, this is what we're working on. Slides across the floors to report, and he's like, oh, in the CI space, under three years we went from no product to the very best of the business. Beat out Microsoft, and CloudBees, and all these. And I was like wait, I didn't know you were in the CI space. I shouldn't say this publicly, >> Alright it's alright. >> but I went like I didn't know that. >> It's okay. You got the job. >> No, I'm safe, but the ability that's just the speed that the company moves. Everyone says it, but when you can go that fast with that kind of quality, I was like I got to dig deeper. And so we just kind of went down that path, and it's been quite an adventure. >> Good. >> Obviously, Microsoft buying GitHub has made for a whole lot of discussions in a whole lot of different ways for us. And competition's good, so it's been a lot of fun. >> Well, we definitely want to talk about the GitLab and Beacon Platform partnership, but I want to first ask you, Alex. Tell our viewers a little bit more about the Beacon Platform. >> So Beacon Platform is a company that came out of the financial services from the large banks; the Goldman Sachs, the J.P. Morgans, the Bank of Americas. And in those places, internally they have to have this quite open source like culture where there is people contributing in the same codebase, there's a lifecycle of how things are done, and it's rapid moving. And people don't associate them with large banks, but there is these products out there. In fact, some of the Goldman Sachs partners refer to those as the golden source, so they secret source. And if large banks can do it, why can't someone else. So we've taken those experiences that people have done for years to build these communities, best practices, and prescriptions, and turn it into a product. So we've taken the same model of here is a set of financial tooling, and infrastructure, and toolboxes to make financial applications. And we've brought it to the smaller bunch; so your insurance companies, even your large banks, Komodo used firms, insurance people. They can take our platform, and then bring their own analytics, and then build financial applications that they want on top of it and whilst doing so be ensured that they're compliant with security. We've done the governance for you. We've done the security for you. All you have to do is put your good ideas to use and make applications. >> So give us some examples of the business problems that this platform solves. >> So typically in the financial space, the people that have the great ideas are pawns, and they're by nature mathematicians. They're not developers. They're not UX people. They're not UI designers. They're certainly not security people. And yet they are are the people that are driving the core business and the value. And so the question is how do we make them be productive? How do we make sure that their lives are easier? Which means that you give them an idea. You give them a lifecycle for software that they can start saying, "Ooh, I've got an idea. I'll hack it up." And when it's hacked, they can publish it. It comes out the other end, and all the reporting is underneath there. Their security is there. The compliance is there. All the authentication is there. And that idea is now being actualized in the matter of days, weeks rather than months and years. And that means that our customers can take these ideas that they've been working on or just conceiving and turn it into reality in a very short amount of time. And then be comfortable that whole platform itself remains secure, compliant, and all the same thing that Amazon is actually counting to us. >> You know it seems like if your focus, your core competence, was or is financial services. I mean you're starting at a very high level of demand client, right? >> Yes. >> And appropriately so, and so there are a lot of lessons that migrate to other businesses that I assume are quite attractive to them, >> Yes. >> because if you mention your client, BOA, if they've got comfort, I have comfort. Right, because how much of that do you see that the experiences that you've developed or that you have put them through translate in a very positive way to other sectors? >> We've found out some of our customers are starting off in the cloud, and they're making their cloud journey. They're financial companies that want to take the journey to the cloud, but don't really know how to. And so we as a company which has already running on the cloud, as a company we don't actually own a physical single server. We're all on the cloud, all in. And they, our customers, come to us to say, "How are you in the cloud? What do you do? "You have the experience. You've worked at these places. "How does that all work?" And so we give them a sort of in the same way that out platform does. Prescriptive advice on how things are going to be done. And our customers come along with us on the journey. And so we take the customers on their cloud journey whereas our customers are taking us on their needs, and bringing their needs, and what they need to us to say, "I want to build an application like this. "What more do I need to do? What do I have to do?" And so it's a very collaborative relationship doing our customers to say, "I can help you in the cloud space. "You can help us in the financial ideas space, "and together we can actually make applications." Whatever we build ourselves, becomes we can resell it to others whilst the customers intellectual property can stay with them. It's a really interesting collaboration of. >> Symbiotic in many respects, right? >> Yes. >> You're leaning on them. And what about the relationship between the two of you again in terms of. >> Sure yeah, so as much as Beacon is very financial services focused, we're a DevOps tool and end DevOps tool for anyone, right. So in many ways what Beacon is doing is taking what GitLab's done about builing that whole tool chain, 'cause there's really a tool chain crisis out there. If you start looking at what needs to be set up for a developer, they want to live in their IDE, do their development, and publish as he said. But you start looking at what that needs to be set up after that, you're talking often times on a company 12, 15 other steps to go through. And that was kind of our aha was there's an opportunity to treat that as one full application as a DevOps tool set across the entire board. Started down that journey really like three years ago, and that's kind of I think we kind of match up. The similar story; they wrap all the important financial data, all the other things that matter to a bank, right. And they're got to whole bunch of extra tooling, extra data, extra services. But at the core of it, they also leveraged GitLab both as a tool to develop their own product and also to offer it as a tool possibly to their own customers, right. So their other customers need to develop. They need a DevOps toolset, so we work back and forth a whole lot on this. They move so fast. It's been amazing, and so every time we sit down we're like wait, what if we did, okay cool let's iterate. And we can turn that around. We ship every month to our customers. You can run it anywhere you want. The majority of our customers, they love the fact that they can run anywhere. Which in fact while Beacon does runs on Amazon, their customer bases have to run on (mumbles), right? And while we're seeing that hybrid become more and more common which is great, that's the truth that's been there forever. That's the world that we've lived, they live everyday and have lived for a long time, and so it's kind of fun to come here and see that be like yes, oh yeah that does exist, and we're kind of like yeah that's existed for a long time. >> Everybody caught up. >> Right yeah, we're there and there's always going to be reasons for that on both directions. And so we work really well together on that side, and they push us hard. Right, so we're actually right on stage. We're sitting there in just this morning, he's like hey, you finally (mumbles). You know I've got all these merge requests that he wants in our product. (mumbles) opens, it's open. Everyone in the world, anyone that watches this, go put a merge request on GitLab. We're going to track it. You're going to know where it lands. You're going to know when it gets delivered. So and if you want to write the code, you can write it and it's in. So it's been actually a ton of fun. >> And have at it, right? >> Yes. >> Well if the relationship's working good to see. >> Yes. >> And you're five months in, and I'm sure the one year anniversary's right around the corner for you. I'll try to be able to wait. >> Be here before you'll know it right? >> Hell yeah. >> (mumbles) thanks for joining us. Good to have you here on theCUBE, and look forward to hearing about this continuous success down the road I'm sure. >> Thank you >> Thank you so much. >> (mumbles) having us. >> Thank you both. Back with more here on theCUBE. You're watching this live at AWS re:Invent Las Vegas. (techno music)

from the noise it's the cube covering vmworld 2015 brought to you by VM world and its ecosystem sponsors now your host Stu minimun and Brian Grace Lee Patrick Shanna's on for a member of the technical staff for dr. Patrick saw you at the end of our spring tour and now you're here at the you know picking up the fall tour so thank you for joining us again hey thanks for having me alright so I mean last year you know containers with VMware I mean was a big discussion we kind of all had that you've got some background with Microsoft right and VMware yeah and VMware so you know there was kind of a joke of you know oh the old Microsoft you know extend embrace and we'll see how we go from there but you know it's been a year later so can you give us a little bit of the update of kind of you know how docker in VMware how do you guys see each other I could evm where is a great partner you so the announcement this morning VMware embrace containers so I'm super excited to be here some of the announcements that were made this morning is now this year is a control plane for containers there's this notion of native containers in this year one of the things that excites me the most is their project bonville that they talked about this morning it's actually been made by one of my friends on the ex-colleagues banchory and what they're doing in there that they are implemented the back end for the darker engine in terms of these fear primitives so when you're creating images it creates a set of vmdk layers and when you're creating when you want to create a container the isolation primitives are the ones of VMS as opposed to linux containers all right so that's a very good way of running container yes sir patrick last time we're in the cube you did a great job of helping us you know kind of walk the stack I don't know if you saw we actually did a research piece kind of layering the whole stack so here the announcement you mentioned this morning is the vSphere integrated containers and they've got photon and they've got Bonneville on and let me ask you am I looking at this right that we're VMware I mean VMware very much down at the infrastructure level yeah so when they build that photon layer you know whether they call it just enough virtualization as Kate kolbert said this morning when I heard him speak um but dr. sits on top of that am I getting that right yeah it's exactly right and actually one of my reasons for joining VMware I think four years ago was for them to go up stack and at that time it was with cloud foundry and I would argue that maybe with cloud foundry we were a little bit too much up stack compared to my vm worries at the bottom when I present the whole stack usually I talk about like the new hardware the new hardware today is your cloud provider it's a Amazon Microsoft Google and then the virtualization with VMware so that's the new hardware and that's where vmware is very strong so they manage networking storage and compute on top of that you have the OS layer and what really got me interested into moving to darker is that the whole landscape just changed when containers appear two years ago and the whole industry is reorganizing around that so what happened at the OS layer that all the OS providers starting with chorus initially who studied that friend started doing minimal release of their OS that are just designed to run containers so coral I started that trend but then very quickly read had followed with project atomic and then we went to with winter core the most interesting to me is Ranchero s where they run docker for everything so they have two darker system darker and userland occur and then VMware came out with photon I think twas last June or something like that and today I think they have a preview to of that coming out on top of that you have ducker so the rocker engine running and on top of the darker engine you have orchestration platforms and these are the ones that are replacing what used to be past platform as a service and when I was at Google I was doing google appengine at vmware i was doing cloud foundry now you see cloud foundry reinventing itself as a control plane for containers and so one of the announcement that excited me most in the keynote this morning is that now Cloud Foundry is running with photon they have an integrated distribution so finally vmware is going up stack with its own stack like vSphere at the bottom then on top of that you have photon and then on top of that you have cloud foundry yeah so really exciting times yeah I think for me one of the things that I always hear that feels like it's confusing or off the markets a lot of people want to kind of get into this containers replaces VMs or VMs versus container debate and as if they're both sort of infrastructure layer which if you think about them is something that holds that I could see you make the mistake but but Dockers is something that developers love they love to package their applications they love this idea of right on my laptop push it somewhere do you find that confusion a lot in the marketplace I mean oh yeah I find that a lot and I think it's tied to the rise of DevOps it really in the past five years the this new movement called DevOps like really took off and DevOps is a lot about people and processes a little bit about products as well and I think when docker appeared it was the right level of abstraction for DevOps to happen like the right packaging construct where developers can put all their dependencies in a container and then ups have all the right knobs to tweak for putting that in production but it's the same thing that you put in production that you have on your developer machine so to me a lot of the confusion assoc d2 docker is tied to that because it's a technology that you use both by developers and by ops I think vmware is doing a really good job of giving up so kind of control they need to put darker in production yeah so we're here at vmworld a lot of talk about vmware in containers you guys doing a ton of stuff with Microsoft like yeah talk a little bit about because you know for a long time people like to say what containers have been along for on for a long time Linux containers and but but windows and microsoft adopting this like what's going on there yeah so the partnership with Microsoft is super exciting so after a VMware I actually moved to Microsoft and at Microsoft my role was to help all the darker partners to get onto Azure and since I join I've seen all the work that happened with microsoft recently we've done tons of stuff we end many many different integration points to me the most important one is finally we have native windows containers that shipped with a Windows Server tv3 like literally I think two weeks ago so that's something that was pre announced that dark on and my croissan'wich came onstage with the ducati sure to do a demo now you can run it on Azure yourself what's exciting there is that the concepts that are at the heart of docker are based on using c groups and name spaces which are linux kernel features for isolation of your workloads the thing is these isolation primitive similar ones existed in windows server and especially the version of Windows Server that was running within Microsoft data center for to power Bing and things like that to have denser workloads in the data center where the Microsoft team has done is that they re implemented the darker back end in terms of windows containers primitives and so now you can create Windows net application running on windows server in windows native containers the beauty of it if you're a developer especially an enterprise developer in the enterprise basically you have half and half Java and.net very often like developers go from one to the other or they are developers who do Java others doing dotnet they have completely different tool chains now with darker they have a single tool chain that they can use to build a multi container application that use different technologies behind the scene so finally developers can use the best tools for the father father job yep so pattern one of the things we look at every year here at vmworld is how are we doing it kind of fixing the things that broke when virtualization went into both storage and networking yeah and it was big discussion point at dr. Khan this year you put up a beta of docker networking yep storage I'd say is even a little bit you know further behind there so you know what's the latest on how you guys think of that you know where are we along that maturity curve of you know storage and networking for for containers so I'm really glad you asked that because when i joined occur in march that was my first project to kick-start a project to do darker extensibility and the two extension points that we created based on ecosystem and customer demands were about storage and networking and so I'd acha kaun in June we announced to extension points for dr. a plug-in system one for networking and one for volumes and what I really love about what happened at vmworld today this morning in the keynote is that VMware implemented a networking plug-in based on NSX as well as a volume plug inning in collaboration with a cluster HQ who had built flutter and help us create that extension point four volumes so finally one of the big issues with containers is that when you were deploying it in a multi host set up especially with swarm and compose when you're stunning to the orchestration before June there was no way to to move one container when state full container with data to another machine with a volume plug-in now you can do that and with the networking aspect now you can refer to containers by instead of like doing links and there were some complicated ways to do that now you can use either the native networking driver that comes with ducker but as usual we use the philosophy of batteries included but replaceable and so you can plug networking plug-in coming from nsx if you're using this fear under the hood yeah so still we're we're going to be doing a panel tomorrow on on containers one of the things I want to dig into we're gonna have intel on the show and tells doing some neat things where they're they're calling it clear containers but in essence it's it's kind of the equivalent for the vm we're proud of you know VT technology right hardware isolation of processes talk about just what's the potential of that for containers ability to better leverage hardware to make containers a it's faster and yeah so that aspect of internal research is super exciting and it corroborates some of the things i see happening in the marketplace right now especially on the research side where you have both like Linux containers became super successful in the past two years now that we're going in production there will be lots of different type of isolation technologies applied to containers and so one of the first one I heard about West project banville where it's implemented in terms of this year primitives another one is the clear container by Intel another one that I heard about that that came through the oci project that will talk about that new standard that we announced a cocoon is called is called things of run V and it's based on the hyper SH container technology based on virtualization so I see more and more people using virtualization as an implementation for isolation in containers yeah talk about what's going on with run see so you know six months ago it was we had this you know are we gonna have diverging container standards you guys stood up with core OS and 20 other companies and said we're no we're going to have one standard what's going on with with oci and run c and that thing that's been super exciting so that was my second project that docker we announced it at Daka Connie you that we had a 20 of the biggest companies in the industry joining to create a standard container especially core OS joining as well as Google and Amazon and everybody and what blew my mind is that we're what were free month later less than three months later the team right now is preparing a first draft of the spec for September they've been working actively all throughout the summer we put out we started working on the spec just after dark on we had the darker contributor summit and the the working group for OC I was the largest we had like 15 people from different companies starting to iterate on the spec they continued throughout the summer and now we have something that's close to a first draft of the spec with a reference implementation that's runs in one of the most interesting development that happens there and that really speaks to the power of open source and open stone is is that once the specs started to mature we started to have already a second reference a second implementation of the spec that's called rungy that's been built by the hyper SH project based on virtualization and then why way contributed a test suite for compliance of the of the spec so that spec is advancing really fast yeah so I was having a conversation with Jim's emmalin who runs the Linux Foundation II week or so ago at linux con and we asked him we said you know it's hard because you love them all like your kids do you have a favorite project he said yeah no question oci is my favorite project right now just because of the promise of portability the sort of write once run anywhere so you're working on it it's an important product the Linux domain is really looking at you guys to make this work and and drive that portability yeah and the Linux Foundation has done a really great job at coordinating the work of all the maintainer Xin there it's really a neutral ground where we can advance so that all of us can innovate on top of it now a lot of the competition is happening at the upper layer of the stack like oci I think we all agree on the semantics of what a container runtime should be now at the higher level there are lots of discussions about how the orchestration should be done and there you have 15 different projects you have swarmed from darker this mess those this coup banaras which is very opinionated and one of the other development this summer is that Google and many others including us dr. with part of that announced an another foundation called the CNC F the cloud native computing foundation where the goal there is to create reference tax for orchestration that can interoperate together pretty much along the same line of the work that darker did with a mesosphere for having a swarm plugin for mezclas so Patrick boy there's been so much movement in this space we talked multiple foundations a lot going on one of the things we came out of dr. Khan that we were just I guess a little concerned about is how many people actually run an import and we know you know I mean live through the the VMware lived through the Linux you know adoption phases so is it fair to kind of gauge that piece of it you know what do you see when you know you're talking to the practitioners and the you pick users out there as to you know how should we be measuring you know that's a naturally occurring production yeah so I would say it's maturing a lot we see more and more users putting darker in production there are lots of holes still in the offering that needs to be filled and that's why I'm pretty excited to see VMware stepping in and saying hey for production use we have a lot of technology that you can use to put that in production some of the things that we've seen is a like networking and volumes so that was really needed now that there are lots of plugins I hope that people will have an easier time putting that into production the agreement on what orchestration should be so people are still asking a lot of question about which orchestrator should i use for my containers in production and so I've seen so people using measures others using coronary some are trying swarm there's still lots of questions out there about what the right stack should look like and I would say as usual in software project it kind of depends on what you're running well the one thing that concerns me and it's always there's so many good things going on around docker I've been doing some research over the last couple of months looking at all the different platforms so everything from you know dr. native to what hoshi corp is doing to what openshift is doing and we were we talkin to Adrian Cockroft he said you know dockers reached sort of plaid in terms of speed it moves so fast you guys are releasing some every two months how do you deal with that because you deal with the ecosystem how do they deal with the fact that you're now part of their core platform but you're releasing new stuff every two months I mean are we going to get into something where it's like well it's it's one dot six and two dot one and how do you deal with that yeah so ducker itself as a company is maturing addict Akane you one of the big things that we announced is a darker trusted registry and aqus yes so we have a version of docker that is supported where we're going to do backwards a porting of patches so for people who really want to run it in production we have an offering that supported for them so that they are not obliged to run on the tape every time some of the startups that I've seen out there like large startups with a more in the consumer space who have larger data center and a pretty mature ops team they some of them are running on tip or on the latest version of darker but in the enterprise you can assume that like the adoption of new versions will be slower and so we have that like support offering for for all the versions of darker now the darker open source project is continuing to fire I like to create lots of things and there are lots of poor request the project is more successful than ever I think in the last like recently the most prolific contributor was Microsoft in the project there are lots of torrid has a huge contributor that Google as well is sending lots of pull requests so there are not lots of new features coming with each new release but at the same time we're really working on a platform that everybody is going to use and that needs to mature that's why you have that really fast pace of innovation in that space yeah so I mean Patrick here you're you're in the weeds of some of this so the other one that comes up quite a bit of courses security so even just this last week there's a big back and forth on Twitter and a couple of blog posts talking about it you know what what your thought is to how how we should talk about kind of the maturity and where we're going with the container security discussion yeah so as you guess container security is one of our big focus abductor because that's one of the things that people are expecting from a platform especially to run in production my colleague yoga Monica did lots of blog posts recently about how to improve your security in production security is not only a factor of the software itself but on the all the processes that you put in place around it and basically around darker you have to put in place with some kind of processes you have for operating systems like getting the latest release of the official images I don't know if you saw that there's been a blog post like talking where they looked randomly at all the images in docker hub and evaluating them for security issues one of the things that they didn't look at is that the latest releases of operating systems that we have in there in blocker images are just tracking the upstream releases and people who have sound security practices internally I'll just pulling these latest releases all right last question I have for you Patrick it's it easy for people to come I come in here and be like oh well you know biggest threat to vmware is is docker what what I love talking to you is you know this is a real small community I over the last year a lot of former VMware people now working over a doctor and not that they're unhappy with VMware and you know Microsoft is is in the mix you know so I mean this whole community is pulling together and doing a lot of work a lot of contribution you know what do you see out there from the technology community to help mature this whole space yeah I'd say both VMware and Microsoft at the operating system an infrastructure level as well as Google at the orchestration layer VMware a red hat at the operating system layer like everybody is trying to make darker a sound platform to run in production so what I see in all corners is just darker getting solidified and getting part of most people's production infrastructure with all these efforts on the security and stability and processes as well as the development processes there are lots of innovation in the terms of CI CD integration with darker no no she saw the work that cloudbees has been doing for integrating jenkins with darker so doctor is both the platform for apps and for devs and in that in that qualification that the ecosystem is very broad both on the dev tools side as well as on the ops and platform side all right well Patrick unfortunately at a time is always great chatting with you thank you so much for joining us we'll be back with lots more coverage here from being real 2015 and thank you for watching you inseam six months you