>>Hello and welcome back to the Cube's coverage of AWS Reinvent 2022. I'm John Furrier, host of the Cube. We got a great conversation with Patrick Kauflin, vice president of Go to Market Strategy and specialization at Splunk. We're talking about the open cybersecurity scheme of framework, also known as the O C sf, a joint strategic collaboration between Splunk and aws. It's got a lot of traction momentum. Patrick, thanks for coming on the cube for reinvent coverage. >>John, great to be here. I'm excited for this. >>You know, I love this open source movement and open source and continues to add value, almost sets the standards. You know, we were talking at the CNCF Linux Foundation this past fall about how standards are coming outta open source. Not so much the the classic standards groups, but you start to see the developers voting with their code groups deciding what to adopt de facto standards and security is a real key part of that where data becomes key for resilience. And this has been the top conversation at reinvent and all around the industry, is how to make data a key part of building into cyber resilience. So I wanna get your thoughts about the problem that you see that's emerging that you guys are solving with this group kind of collaboration around the ocs f >>Yeah, well look, John, I I think, I think you, you've already, you've already hit the high notes there. Data is proliferating across the enterprise. The attack surface area is rapidly expanding. The threat landscape is ever changing. You know, we, we just had a, a lot of scares around open SSL before that we had vulnerabilities and, and Confluence and Atlassian, and you go back to log four J and SolarWinds before that and, and challenges with the supply chain. In this year in particular, we've had a, a huge acceleration in, in concerns and threat vectors around operational technology. In our customer base alone, we saw a huge uptake, you know, and double digit percentage of customers that we're concerned about the traditional vectors like, like ransomware, like business email compromise, phishing, but also from insider threat and others. So you've got this, this highly complex environment where data continues to proliferate and flow through new applications, new infrastructure, new services, driving different types of outcomes in the digitally transformed enterprise of today. >>And, and what happens there is, is our customers, particularly in security, are, are left with having to stitch all of this together. And they're trying to get visibility across multiple different services, infrastructure applications across a number of different point solutions that they've bought to help them protect, defend, detect, and respond better. And it's a massive challenge. And you know, when our, when our customers come to us, they are often looking for ways to drive more consolidation across a variety of different solutions. They're looking to drive better outcomes in terms of speed to detection. How do I detect faster? How do I bind the thing that when bang in the night faster? How do I then fix it quickly? And then how do I layer in some automation so hopefully I don't have to do it again? Now, the challenge there that really OCF Ocsf helps to, to solve is to do that effectively, to detect and to respond at the speed at which attackers are demanding. >>Today we have to have normalization of data across this entire landscape of tools, infrastructure, services. We have to have integration to have visibility, and these tools have to work together. But the biggest barrier to that is often data is stored in different structures and in different formats across different solution providers, across different tools that are, that are, that our customers are using. And that that lack of data, normalization, chokes the integration problem. And so, you know, several years ago, a number of very smart people, and this was, this was a initiative s started by Splunk and AWS came together and said, look, we as an industry have to solve this for our customers. We have to start to shoulder this burden for our customers. We can't, we can't make our customers have to be systems integrators. That's not their job. Our job is to help make this easier for them. And so OCS was born and over the last couple of years we've built out this, this collaboration to not just be AWS and Splunk, but over 50 different organizations, cloud service providers, solution providers in the cybersecurity space have come together and said, let's decide on a single unified schema for how we're gonna represent event data in this industry. And I'm very proud to be here today to say that we've launched it and, and I can't wait to see where we go next. >>Yeah, I mean, this is really compelling. I mean, it's so much packed in that, in that statement, I mean, data normalization, you mentioned chokes, this the, the solution and integration as you call it. But really also it's like data's not just stored in silos. It may not even be available, right? So if you don't have availability of data, that's an important point. Number two, you mentioned supply chain, there's physical supply chain that's coming up big time at reinvent this time as well as in open source, the software supply chain. So you now have the perimeter's been dead for multiple years. We've been talking with that for years, everybody knows that. But now combined with the supply chain problem, both physical and software, there's so much more to go on. And so, you know, the leaders in the industry, they're not sitting on their hands. They know this, but they're just overloaded. So, so how do leaders deal with this right now before we get into the ocs f I wanna just get your thoughts on what's the psychology of the, of the business leader who's facing this landscape? >>Yeah, well, I mean unfortunately too many leaders feel like they have to face these trade offs between, you know, how and where they are really focusing cyber resilience investments in the business. And, and often there is a siloed approach across security, IT developer operations or engineering rather than the ability to kind of drive visibility integration and, and connection of outcomes across those different functions. I mean, the truth is the telemetry that, that you get from an application for application performance monitoring or infrastructure monitoring is often incredibly valuable when there's a security incident and vice versa. Some of the security data that, that you may see in a security operation center can be incredibly valuable in trying to investigate a, a performance degradation in an application and understanding where that may come from. And so what we're seeing is this data layer is collapsing faster than the org charts are or the budget line items are in the enterprise. And so at Splunk here, you know, we believe security resilience is, is fundamentally a data problem. And one of the things that we do often is, is actually help connect the dots for our customers and bring our customers together across the silos they may have internally so that they can start to see a holistic picture of what resilience means for their enterprise and how they can drive faster detection outcomes and more automation coverage. >>You know, we recently had an event called Super Cloud, we're going into the next gen kind of a cloud, how data and security are all kind of part of this NextGen application. It's not just us. And we had a panel that was titled The Innovators Dilemma, kind of talk about you some of the challenges. And one of the panelists said, it's not the innovator's dilemma, it's the integrator's dilemma. And you mentioned that earlier, and I think this a key point right now into integration is so critical, not having the data and putting pieces together now open source is becoming a composability market. And I think having things snap together and work well, it's a platform system conversation, not a tool conversation. So I really wanna get into where the OCS f kind of intersects with this area people are working on. It's not just solution architects or cloud cloud native SREs, especially where DevSecOps is. So this that's right, this intersection is critical. How does Ocsf integrate into that integration of the data making that available to make machine learning and automation smarter and more relevant? >>Right, right. Well look, I mean, I I think that's a fantastic question because, you know, we talk about, we use Bud buzzwords like machine learning and, and AI all the time. And you know, I know they're all over the place here at Reinvent and, and the, there's so much promise and hope out there around these technologies and these innovations. However, machine learning AI is only as effective as the data is clean and normalized. And, and we will not realize the promise of these technologies for outcomes in resilience unless we have better ways to normalize data upstream and better ways to integrate that data to the downstream tools where detection and response is happening. And so Ocsf was really about the industry coming together and saying, this is no longer the job of our customers. We are going to create a unified schema that represents the, an event that we will all bite down on. >>Even some of us are competitors, you know, this is, this is that, that no longer matters because at the point, the point is how do we take this burden off of our customers and how do we make the industry safer together? And so 15 initial members came together along with AWS and Splunk to, to start to create that, that initial schema and standardize it. And if you've ever, you know, if you've ever worked with a bunch of technical grumpy security people, it's kind of hard to drive consensus about around just about anything. But, but I, I'm really happy to see how quickly this, this organization has come together, has open sourced the schema, and, and, and just as you said, like I think this, this unlocks the potential for real innovation that's gonna be required to keep up with the bad guys. But right now is getting stymied and held back by the lack of normalization and the lack of integration. >>I've always said Splunk was a, it eats data for breakfast, lunch, and dinner and turns it into insights. And I think you bring up the silo thing. What's interesting is the cross company sharing, I think this hits point on, so I see this as a valuable opportunity for the industry. What's the traction on that? Because, you know, to succeed it does take a village, it takes a community of security practitioners and, and, and architects and developers to kind of coalesce around this defacto movement has been, has been the uptake been good? How's traction? Can you share your thoughts on how this is translating across companies? >>Yeah, absolutely. I mean, look, I, I think cybersecurity has a, has a long track record of, of, of standards development. There's been some fantastic standards recently. Things like sticks and taxi for threat intelligence. There's been things like the, you know, the Mir attack framework coming outta mi mir and, and, and the adoption, the traction that we've seen with Attack in particular has been amazing to, to watch how that has kind of roared onto the scene in the last couple of years and has become table stakes for how you do security operations and incident response. And, you know, I think with ocs f we're gonna see something similar here, but, you know, we are in literally the first innings of, of this. So right now, you know, we're architecting this into our, into every part of our sort of backend systems here at Polan. I know our our collaborators at AWS and elsewhere are doing it too. >>And so I think it starts with bringing this standard now that the standard exists on a, you know, in schema format and there, there's, you know, confluence and Jira tickets around it, how do we then sort of build this into the code of, of the, the collaborators that have been leading the way on this? And you know, it's not gonna happen overnight, but I think in the coming quarters you'll start to see this schema be the standard across the leaders in this space. Companies like Splunk and AWS and others who are leading the way. And often that's what helps drive adoption of a standard is if you can get the, the big dogs, so to speak, to, to, to embrace it. And, and, you know, there's no bigger one than aws and I think there's no, no more important one than Splunk in the cybersecurity space. And so as we adopt this, we hope others will follow. And, and like I said, we've got over 50 organizations contributing to it today. And so I think we're off to a running >>Start. You know, it's interesting, choking innovation or having things kind of get, get slowed down has really been a problem. We've seen successes recently over the past few years. Like Kubernetes has really unlocked and accelerated the cloud native worlds of runtime with containers to, to kind of have the consensus of the community to say, Hey, if we just do this, it gets better. I think this is really compelling with the o the ocs F because if people can come together around this and get unified as well as all the other official standards, things can go highly accelerated. So I think, I think it looks really good and I think it's great initiative and I really appreciate your insight on that, on, on your relationship with Amazon. Okay. It's not just a partnership, it's a strategic collaboration. Could you share that relationship dynamic, how to start, how's it going, what's strategic about it? Share to the audience kind of the relationship between Splunk and a on this important OCS ocsf initiative. >>Look, I, I mean I think this, this year marks the, the 10th year anniversary that, that Splunk and AWS have been collaborating in a variety of different ways. I, I think our, our companies have a fantastic and, and long standing relationship and we've, we've partnered on a number of really important projects together that bring value obviously to our individual companies, but also to our shared customers. When I think about some of the most important customers at Splunk that I spend a significant amount of time with, I I I know how many of those are, are AWS customers as well, and I know how important AWS is to them. So I think it's, it's a, it's a collaboration that is rooted in, in a respect for each other's technologies and innovation, but also in a recognition that, that our shared customers want to see us work better together over time. And it's not, it's not two companies that have kind of decided in a back room that they should work together. It's actually our customers that are, that are pushing us. And I think we're, we're both very customer centric organizations and I think that has helped us actually be better collaborators and better partners together because we're, we're working back backwards from our customers >>As security becomes a physical and software approach. We've seen the trend where even Steven Schmidt at Amazon Web Services is, is the cso, he is not the CSO anymore. So, and I asked him why, he says, well, security's also physical stuff too. So, so he's that's right. Whole lens is now expanded. You mentioned supply chain, physical, digital, this is an important inflection point. Can you summarize in your mind why open cybersecurity schema for is important? I know the unification, but beyond that, what, why is this so important? Why should people pay attention to this? >>You know, I, if, if you'll let me be just a little abstract in meta for a second. I think what's, what's really meaningful at the highest level about the O C S F initiative, and that goes beyond, I think, the tactical value it will provide to, to organizations and to customers in terms of making them safer over the coming years and, and decades. I think what's more important than that is it's really the, one of the first times that you've seen the industry come together and say, we got a problem. We need to solve. That, you know, doesn't really have anything to do with, with our own economics. Our customers are, are hurt. And yeah, some of us may be competitors, you know, we got different cloud service providers that are participating in this along with aws. We got different cybersecurity solution providers participating in this along with Splunk. >>But, but folks who've come together and say, we can actually solve this problem if, if we're able to kind of put aside our competitive differences in the markets and approach this from the perspective of what's best for information security as a whole. And, and I think that's what I'm most proud of and, and what I hope we can do more of in other places in this industry, because I think that kind of collaboration from real market leaders can actually change markets. It can change the, the, the trend lines in terms of how we are keeping up with the bad guys. And, and I'd like to see a lot more of >>That. And we're seeing a lot more new kind of things emerging in the cloud next kind of this next generation architecture and outcomes are happening. I think it's interesting, you know, we always talk about sustainability, supply chain sustainability about making the earth a better place. But you're hitting on this, this meta point about businesses are under threat of going under. I mean, we want to keep businesses to businesses to be sustainable, not just, you know, the, the environment. So if a business goes outta business business, which they, their threats here are, can be catastrophic for companies. I mean, there is, there is a community responsibility to protect businesses so they can sustain and and stay Yeah. Stay producing. This is a real key point. >>Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, I think, I think one of the things that, you know, we, we, we complain a lot of in, in cyber security about the lack of, of talent, the talent shortage in cyber security. And every year we kinda, we kind of whack ourselves over the head about how hard it is to bring people into this industry. And it's true. But one of the things that I think we forget, John, is, is how important mission is to so many people in what they do for a living and how they work. And I think one of the things that cybersecurity is strongest in information Security General and has been for decades is this sense of mission and people work in this industry be not because it's, it's, it's always the, the, the most lucrative, but because it, it really drives a sense of safety and security in the enterprises and the fabric of the economy that we use every day to go through our lives. And when I think about the spun customers and AWS customers, I think about the, the different products and tools that power my life and, and we need to secure them. And, and sometimes that means coming to work every day at that company and, and doing your job. And sometimes that means working with others better, faster, and stronger to help drive that level of, of, of maturity and security that this industry >>Needs. It's a human, is a human opportunity, human problem and, and challenge. That's a whole nother segment. The role of the talent and the human machines and with scale. Patrick, thanks so much for sharing the information and the insight on the Open cybersecurity schema frame and what it means and why it's important. Thanks for sharing on the Cube, really appreciate it. >>Thanks for having me, John. >>Okay, this is AWS Reinvent 2022 coverage here on the Cube. I'm John Furry, you're the host. Thanks for watching.

foreign welcome back to thecube's coverage of AWS re invent 2022 I'm John Furrier host of thecube we've got a great conversation with Patrick Coughlin vice president of go to market strategy and specialization at Splunk we're talking about the open cyber security schema framework also known as the ocsf a joint strategic collaboration between Splunk and AWS it's got a lot of traction momentum Patrick thanks for coming on thecube for reinvent coverage John great to be here I'm excited for this you know I love this open source movement and open source continues to add value almost sets the standards you know we were talking at the cncf Linux Foundation this past fall about how standards are coming out of Open Source not so much the the classic standards groups but you start to see the developers voting with their code groups deciding what to adopt to fact those standards and security is a real key part of that where data becomes key for resilience and this has been the top conversation at re invent and all around the industry is how to make data a key part of building into cyber resilience so I want to get your thoughts about the problem that you see that's emerging that you guys are solving with this group kind of collaboration around the ocsf yeah well look John I I think I think you you've already you've already hit the high notes there uh data is proliferating across the Enterprise uh the attack surface area is rapidly expanding the threat landscape is Ever Changing uh you know we we just had a a lot of uh uh scares around openssl before that we had vulnerabilities and Confluence in atlassian and you go back to log 4J and solarwinds before that um and challenges with the supply chain uh in this year in particular we've had a huge acceleration in in concerns and threat vectors around uh operational technology in our customer base alone we saw a huge uptick you know in double digit percentage of customers that we're concerned about the traditional vectors like like ransomware uh like business email compromise phishing but also from Insider threat and others um so you've got this this highly complex Flex environment where data continues to proliferate and flow through new applications new infrastructure new Services driving different types of outcomes in the digitally transformed Enterprise of today and and what happens there is is our customers particularly in security are left with having to stitch all of this together and they're trying to get visibility across multiple different Services infrastructure applications across a number of different point solutions that they've bought to help them protect defend detect and respond better and it's a massive Challenge and uh you know when our when our customers come to us they are often looking for ways to drive more consolidation uh across a variety of different solutions they're looking to drive better outcomes in terms of speed to detection how do I detect faster how do I find the thing that when banging in the night faster um how do I then fix it quickly and then how do I layer in some automation so hopefully I don't have to do it again now the Challenger that really ocf ocsf helps to to solve is to do that effectively to detect and to respond to the speed at which attackers are demanding today we have to have normalization of data across this entire landscape of tools infrastructure Services we have to have integration to have visibility um and these tools have to work together but the biggest barrier to that is often data is stored in different structures and in different formats across different solution providers across different tools that are that are that our customers are using um and that that lack of data normalization chokes the integration problem and so um you know several years ago a number of very smart people in this position this was a initiative started by Splunk and AWS came together and said look we as an industry have to solve this for our customers we have to start to shoulder this burden for our customers we can't we can't make our customers have to be systems integrators that's not their job our job is to help make this easier for them and so ocsf was born and over the last couple of years um we've built out this this collaboration to not just be AWS and Splunk uh but over uh 50 different organizations um uh um cloud service providers solution providers in the cyber security space have come together and said let's decide on a single unified schema for how we're going to represent event data in this industry um and uh I'm very proud to be here today to say that we've launched it and and um uh I can't wait to see where we go next yeah I mean this is really compelling I mean there's so much packed in that in that statement I mean data normalization you mentioned chokes this the the solution and the integration as you call it but really also it's like data is not just stored in silos it may not even be available right so if you don't have availability of data that's an important Point number two you mentioned supply chain there's physical supply chain is coming up big time at re invent this time as well as in open source the software supply chain so you now have the perimeter has been dead for multiple years we've been talking about that for years everybody knows that but now combined with the supply chain problem both physical and software there's so much more to go on and so you know the leaders in the industry they're not sitting on their hands they know this but they're just overloaded so so how do leaders deal with this right now before we get into the ocsf I want to just get your thoughts on what's the psychology of the of the business leader who's facing this landscape yeah well I mean unfortunately too many leaders feel like they have to face these trade-offs between you know how and where they are really focusing cyber resilience investments in the business um and and often there is a siled approach across security I.T developer operations or engineering rather than the ability to kind of Drive visibility integration and and connection of outcomes across those different functions I mean the truth is the Telemetry that that you get from an application for application performance monitoring or infrastructure monitoring is often incredibly valuable when there's a security incident and vice versa some of the security data um that you may see in a security operations center can be incredibly valuable when trying to investigate a performance degradation in an application and understanding where that may come from and so what we're seeing is this data layer is collapsing faster than the org charts are or the budget line items are in the Enterprise and so at Splunk here you know we believe security resilience is is fundamentally a data problem and one of the things that we do often is is actually help connect the dots for our customers and bring our customers together across the silos they may have internally so that they can start to see a holistic picture of what resilience means for their Enterprise and how they can drive faster detection outcomes and more automation coverage you know we recently had an event called super cloud we're going into the next gen kind of a cloud how data and security are all kind of part of this next-gen applications not just SAS and we had a panel that was titled the innovators dilemma kind of talk about getting some of the challenges and one of the panelists said it's not the innovators dilemma it's the integrators dilemma and you mentioned that earlier I think this is a key point right now integration is so critical not having the data and putting pieces together and now open source is becoming a composability market and I think having things snap together and work well it's a platform system conversation not a tool conversation so I really want to get into where the ocsf kind of intersects with this area people are working on it's not just solution Architects or cloud cloud native sres especially where devsecops is so this this intersection is critical how does ocsf integrate into that integration of the data making that available to make machine learning and automation smarter and more relevant right right well look I mean I I think that's a fantastic question because you know we talk about we use buzzwords like machine learning and AI all the time and you know I I know they're all over the place here at reinvented and and um there's so much promise and hope out there around these Technologies and these Innovations however uh machine learning AI is only as effective as the data is clean and normalized uh and and we will not realize the promise of these Technologies for outcomes in resilience unless we have better ways to normalize data upstream and better ways to integrate that data to the downstream tools where detection and response is happening and so ocsf was really about the industry coming together and saying this is no longer the job of our customers we are going to create a unified schema that represents the an event that we will all bite down on even some of us are competitors you know this is this is that that no longer matters because at the point the point is how do we take this burden off of our customers and how do we make the industry safer together um and so 15 initial members came together um along with AWS and Splunk to to start to create that uh that initial schema and standardize it and if you've ever you know if you ever worked with a bunch of technical grumpy security people it's kind of hard to drive consensus about around just about anything but uh um but I'm really happy to see how quickly this this organization Has Come Together has open sourced the schema um and and just as you said like I think this this unlocks the potential for real Innovation that's going to be required to keep up with the bad guys but right now is getting stymied and held back by the lack of normalization and the lack of integration I've always said Splunk was a it's AIDS data for breakfast lunch and dinner and turns it into insights and I think you bring up The Silo thing what's interesting is the cross company sharing I think this hits point on so I see this as a valuable opportunity for the industry what's the traction on that because you know to succeed it does take a village takes a community of security practitioners and and Architects and developers to kind of coalesce around this de facto movement has been has been uptake been good that's attraction can you share your thoughts on how this is translating across companies yeah absolutely I mean look I I think um cyber security has a long track record of of Standards development um there's been some fantastic standards recently things like um sticks and taxi for threat intelligence there's been things like the you know the minor attack framework coming out of my miter and and the adoption the traction that we've seen with attack in particular has been amazing to watch how that has kind of roared onto the scene in the last couple of years and has become table Stakes for um how you do security operations and incident response um and you know I think with ocsf we're going to see something similar here but you know we are in literally the first Innings of of this um so right now you know we're architecting this into our um into every part of our sort of back end systems here at spelunk I know um our collaborators at AWS and elsewhere are doing it too and so I think it starts with bringing this standard now the standard exists on a uh you know in schema format um and there's you know Confluence and jira tickets around it how do we then sort of build this into the code of of the the collaborators that have been leading the way on this and you know it's not going to happen overnight but I think in the coming quarters you'll start to see this schema um be the standard um across the leaders in this space companies like Splunk and AWS and others who are leading the way and often that's what helps Drive adoption of a standard is if you can get the big dogs so to speak to to embrace it and you know there's no bigger one than AWS and I think there's no no more important one than Splunk in the cyber security space and so as we adopt this we hope others will follow and like I said we've got over 50 organizations contributing to it today and so um I think we're off to a running start you know it's interesting choking Innovation or having things kind of get get slowed down has really been a problem we've seen successes recently over the past few years like kubernetes has really unlocked and accelerated the cloud native worlds of runtime with containers to kind of have the consensus of the community say hey if you we just do this it gets better I think this is really compelling with the ocsf because if people can come together around this and get unified as well as other the other official standards things can go highly accelerated so I think I think it looks really good and I think it's great initiative and I really appreciate your Insight on that on on your relationship with Amazon okay it's not just the Partnerships it's a strategic collaboration could you share that uh relationship Dynamic how to start how's it going what's strategic about it share to the audience kind of the relationship between Splunk and natives on this important ocsf initiative look I I mean I think this this year marks the the 10th year anniversary that that Splunk and AWS have been collaborating in a variety of different ways um I I think our our companies have um a fantastic and long-standing relationship and we've we've partnered on a number of really important projects together that bring value um obviously to our individual companies uh but also to our shared customers um uh when I think about some of the most important customers at Splunk that I spend a significant amount of time with um uh I I know how many of those are our AWS customers as well and I know how important AWS is to them so I think it's it's a it's a collaboration that is rooted in in a respect for each other's Technologies um and Innovation but also in a recognition that that our shared customers want to see us work better together over time and it's not it's not two companies that have kind of decided in a back room that they should work together it's actually our customers that are that are pushing us and I think we're both very customer-centric organizations and I think that has helped us actually be better collaborators and better Partners together um because we're working back backwards from our customers as security becomes a physical and software approach we've seen the trend where even Steven Schmidt at Amazon web services is the CSO he's not the CSO anymore so why he says well security is also physical stuff too so so lens is now expanded you mentioned supply chain physical digital this is an important inflection point can you summarize in your mind why open cyber security scheme information is important I know the unification but beyond that what why is this so important why should people pay attention to this you know I if if you'll let me be just a little abstract and meta for a second yeah I think what's what's really meaningful at the highest level about the ocsf initiative um and then it goes beyond I think the Tactical value it will provide to to organizations and to customers in terms of making them safer um over the coming years and and decades I think what's more important than that is it's really the one of the first times that you've seen um the industry come together and say we got a problem we need to solve that you know doesn't really have anything to do with with our own economics um our customers are are hurting and yeah some of us may be competitors um uh you know we got different cloud service providers that are participating in this along with AWS we've got different cyber security solution providers participating in this along with spelunk um but but folks have come together and say we can actually solve this problem um if if we're able to kind of put aside our competitive differences in the markets and approach this from the perspective of what's best for information security as a whole um and and I think that's what I'm most proud of uh and and what I hope we can do more of in other places in this industry because I think that kind of collaboration from real Market leaders can actually um change markets it can change the the the trend lines in terms of how we are keeping up with the bad guys and and I'd like to see a lot more of that and we're seeing a lot more new kind of things emerging in the cloud next kind of this next Generation architecture and alcohol thumbs are happening I think it's interesting you know we always talk about sustainability supply chain sustainability about making the earth a better place but you're hitting on this this meta point about businesses are under threat of going under I mean we want to keep businesses to businesses to be sustainable not just you know the the environment so if a business goes out of business which the threats here are can be catastrophic for companies I mean there is there is a community responsibility to protect businesses so they can sustain and stay stay producing this is a real key point yeah yeah I mean look I think I think one of the things that you know we We complain a lot in in cyber security about the lack of of talent the talent shortage and cyber security and every year we kind of we kind of uh whack ourselves over the head about how hard it is to bring people into this industry and it's true um but one of the things that I think we forget John is is how important mission is to so many people in what they do for a living and how they work and I think one of the things that cyber security is strongest in information security General and has been for decades is this sense of mission and people work in this industry not because it's it's it's always the the the most lucrative but because it really drives a sense of um Safety and Security in the Enterprises and the fabric of the economy that we use every day to go through our lives and when I think about the sport customers and AWS customers I think about um um the the different products and tools that power my life and and we need to secure them and and sometimes that means coming to work every day at that company and doing your job and sometimes that means working with others better faster and stronger to help drive that level of of maturity and security that this industry needs it's a human it's a human opportunity human problem and and challenge that's a whole other segment the role of the talent and the human machines and with scale Patrick thanks so much for sharing the information and the Insight on the open cyber security schema frame and what it means and why it's important thanks for sharing on thecube really appreciate it thanks for having me John okay this is AWS re invent 2022 coverage here on thecube I'm John Furrier the host thanks for watching foreign [Music]

>>Good morning and welcome back to the Cube where we are excited to be broadcasting live all week from Detroit to Michigan at Cuban slash cloud Native con. Depending on who you're asking, Lisa, it's day two things are buzzing. How are you feeling? >>Good, excited. Ready for day two, ready to have more great conversations to see how this community is expanding, how it's evolving, and how it's really supporting it itself. >>Yeah, Yeah. This is a very supportive community. Something we talked a lot about. And speaking of community, we've got some very bold and brave folks over here. We've got this CTO and the head of product from Storm Forge, and they are on a mission to automate Kubernetes. Now automatic and Kubernetes are not words that go in the same sentence very often, so please welcome Patrick and Yasmin. Thank you both for being here. Hello. How you doing? >>Thanks for having us. >>Thanks for having us. >>Talk about what you guys are doing. Cause as you said, Kubernetes auto spelling is anything but auto. >>Yeah. >>The, what are some of the challenges? How do you help >>Eliminate this? Yeah, so the mission at Storm Forge is primarily automatic resource configuration and optimization essentially. So we started as a machine learning company first. And it's kind of an interesting story cuz we're one of those startups that has pivoted a few times. And so we were running our machine learning workloads. Most >>Have, I think, >>Right? Yeah. Yeah. We were, we started out running our machine learning workloads and moving them into Kubernetes. And then we weren't quite sure how to correctly adjust and size our containers. And so our ML team, we've got three PhDs and applied mathematics. They said, Well, hang on, we could write an algorithm for that. And so they did. And then, Oh, I love this. Yeah. And then we said, Well holy cow, that's actually really useful. I wonder if other people would like that. And that's kind of where we got our start. >>You solved your own problem and then you built a business >>Around it. Yeah, exactly. >>That is fantastic. Is, is that driving product development at Storm Forge still? That kind of attitude? >>I mean that kind of attitude definitely drives product development, but we're, you know, balancing that with what the users are, the challenges that they have, especially at large scale. We deal with a lot of large enterprises and for us as a startup, we can relate to the problems that come with Kubernetes when you're trying to scale it. But when you're talking about the scale of some of these larger enterprises, it's just a different mentality. So we're trying to balance that of how we take that input into how we build our product. Talk >>About that, like the, the end user input and how you're taking that in, because of course it's only going to be a, you know, more of a symbiotic relationship when that customer feedback is taken and >>Acted on. Yeah, totally. And for us, because we use machine learning, it's a lot of building confidence with our users. So making sure that they understand how we look at the data, how we come up with the recommendations, and actually deploy those changes in their environment. There's a lot of trust that needs to be built there. So being able to go back to our users and say, Okay, we're presenting you this type of data, give us your feedback and building it alongside them has helped a lot in these >>Relationships. Absolutely. You said the word trust, and that's something that we talk about at every >>Show. I was gonna jump on that too. It's >>Not, Yeah, it's not a buzzword. It's not, It shouldn't be. Yeah. It really should be, I wanna say lived and breathed, but that's probably grammatically incorrect. >>We're not a gram show. It's okay darling. Yeah, thank >>You. It should be truly embodied. >>Yeah. And I, I think it's, it's not even unique to just what we do, but across tech in general, right? Like when I talk about SRE and building SRE teams, one of the things I mentioned is you have to build that trust first. And with machine learning, I think it can be really difficult too for a couple different reasons. Like one, it tends to be a black box if it's actually true machine learning. Totally. Which ours is. But the other piece that we run into. Yeah. And the other piece we run into though is, is what I was an executive at United Health Group before I joined Storm Forge. And I would get companies that would come to me and try to sell me machine learning and I would kind of look at it and say, Well no, that's just a basic decision tree. Or like, that's a super basic whole winter forecast, right? Like that's not actually machine learning. And that's one of the things that we actually find ourselves kind of battling a little bit when we talk about what we do in building that trust. >>Talk a little bit about the latest release as you guys had a very active September. Here we are. And towards the, I think end of October. Yeah. What are some of the, the new things that have come out? New integrations, new partnerships. Give us a scoop on that. >>Yeah, well I guess I'll start and then I'll probably hand it over to you. But like the, the big thing for us is we talked about automating Kubernetes in the very beginning, right? Like Kubernetes has got a vpa it's >>A wild sentence anyway. Yeah, yeah. >>It it >>Has. We're not gonna get over at the whole show. Yeah. >>It as a VPA built in, it has an HPA built in and, and when you look at the data and even when you read the documentation from Google, it explicitly says never the two should meet. Right. Because you'll end up thrashing and they'll fight each other. Well the big release we just announced is with our machine learning, we can now do both. And so we vertically scale your pods to the correct up. Yeah. >>Follow status. I love that. >>Yeah, we can, we can scale your pods to the correct size and still allow you to enable the HPA and we'll make recommendations for your scaling points and your thresholds on the HPA as well so that they can work together to really truly maximize your efficiency that without sacrificing your performance and your reliability of the applications that you're running. That >>Sounds like a massive differentiator for >>Storm launch, which I would say it is. Yeah. I think as far as I know, we're the first in the industry that can do this. Yeah. >>And >>From very singularity vibes too. You know, the machines are learning, teaching themselves and doing it all automatically. Yep. Gets me very >>Excited. >>Yeah, absolutely. And from a customer demand perspective, what's the feedback been? Yeah, it's been a few >>Weeks. Yeah, it's been really great actually. And a lot of why we went down this path was user driven because they're doing horizontal scale and they want to be able to vertically size as they're scaling. So if you put yourself in the shoes of someone that's configuring Kubernetes, you're usually guessing on what you're setting your CPU requests and limits do. But horizontal scale makes sense. You're either adding more things or removing more things. And so once they actually are scaled out as a large environment and they have to rethink, how am I gonna resize this now? It's just not possible. It's so many thousands of settings across all the different environments and you're only thinking about CPU memory, You're not thinking about a lot of things. It's just, but once you scale that out, it's a big challenge. So they came to us and said, Okay, you're doing, cuz we were doing vertical scaling before and now we enable vertical and horizontal. And so they came to us and said, I love what you're doing about right sizing, but we wanna be able to do this while also horizontally scaling. And so the way that our software works is we give you the recommendations for what the setting should be and then allow Kubernetes to continue to add and remove replicas as needed. So it's not like we're going in and making changes to Kubernetes, but we make changes to the configuration settings so that it's the most optimal from a resource perspective. >>Efficiency has been a real big theme of the show. Yeah. And it's clear that that's a focus for you. Everyone here wants to do more faster Of course. And innovation, that's the thing to do that sometimes we need partners. You just announced an integration with Datadog. Tell us about that. Yeah, >>Absolutely. Yeah. So the way our platform works is we need data of course, right? So they're, they're a great partner for us and we use them both as an input and an output. So we pull in metrics from Datadog to provide recommendations and we'll actually display all those within the Datadog portal. Cause we have a lot of users that are like, Look, Datadog's my single pane of glass and I hate using that word, but they get all their insights there. They can see their recommendations and then actually go deploy those. Whether they wanna automatically have the recommendations deployed or go in and actually push a button. >>So give me an example of a customer that is using the, the new release and some of the business outcomes they're achieving. I imagine one of the things that you're enabling is just closing that ES skills gap. But from a business level perspective, how are they gaining like competitive advantages to be able to get products to market faster, for example? >>Yeah, so one of the customers that was actually part of our press release and launch and spoke about us at a webinar, they are a SaaS product and deal with really bursty workloads. And so their cloud costs have been growing 40% year over year. And their platform engineering team is basically enabled to provide the automation for developers and in their environment, but also to reduce those costs. So they want to, it's that trade off of resiliency and cost performance. And so they came to us and said, Look, we know we're over provisioned, but we don't know how to tackle that problem without throwing tons of humans at the problem. And so we worked with them and just on a single app found 60% savings and we're working now to kind of deploy that across their entire production workload. But that allows them to then go back and get more out of the, the budget that they already have and they can kind of reallocate that in other areas, >>Right? So there can be chop line and bottom >>Line impact. Yeah. And I, I think there's some really direct impact to the carbon emissions of an organization as well. That's a good point. When you can reduce your compute consumption by 60%. >>I love this. We haven't talked about this at all during the show. Yeah. And I'm really glad that you brought this up. All of the things that power this use energy. Yeah. >>What is it like seven to 8% of all electricity in the world is consumed by data centers. Like it's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. And so like that's wild. Yeah. Yeah. So being able to make a reduction in impact there too, especially with organizations that are trying to sign green pledges and everything else. >>It's hard. Yeah. ESG initiatives are huge. >>Absolut, >>It's >>A whole lot. A lot of companies have ESG initiatives where they can't even go out and do an RFP with a business, Right. If they don't have an actual active starting, impactful ESG program. Yes. Yeah. >>And the RFPs that we have to fill out, we have to tell them how they'll help. >>Yeah. Yes. It's so, yeah, I mean I was really struck when I looked on your website and I saw 54% average cost reduction for Yeah. For your cloud operations. I hadn't even thought about it from a power perspective. Yeah. I mean, imagine if we cut that to 3% of the world's power grid. That is just, that is very compelling. Speaking of compelling and exciting future things, talk to us about what's next? What's got you pumped for 2023 and and what lies >>Ahead? Oh man. Well that seems like a product conversation for sure. >>Well, we're super excited about extending what we do to other platforms, other metrics. So we optimize a lot right now around CPU and memory, but we can also give people insights into, you know, limiting kills, limiting CPU throttling, so extending the metrics. And when you look at hba and horizontal scale today, most of it is done with cpu, but there are some organizations out there that are scaling on custom metrics. So being able to take in more data to provide more recommendations and kind of extend what we can do from an optimization standpoint. >>That's, yeah, that's cool. And what house you most excited on the show floor? Anything? Anything that you've seen? Any keynotes? >>There's, Well, I haven't had a lot of time to go to the keynotes unfortunately, but it's, >>Well, I'm shock you've been busy or something, right? Much your time here. >>I can't imagine why. But no, there's, it's really interesting to see all the vendors that are popping up around Kubernetes focus specifically with security is always something that's really interesting to me. And automating CICD and how they continue to dive into that automation devs, SEC ops continues to be a big thing for a lot of organizations. Yeah. Yeah. >>I I do, I think it's interesting when we marry, Were you guys here last year? >>I was not here. >>No. So at, at the smaller version of this in Los Angeles. Yeah. I, I was really struck because there was still a conversation of whether or not we were all in on Kubernetes as, as kind of a community and a society this year. And I'm curious if you feel this way too. Everyone feels committed. Yeah. Yeah. I I I feel like there's no question that Kubernetes is the tool that we are gonna be using. >>Yeah. I I think so. And I think a lot of that is actually being unlocked by some of these vendors that are being partners and helping people get the most outta Kubernetes, you know, especially at the larger enterprise organizations. Like they want to do it, but the skills gap is a very real problem. Right. And so figuring out, like Jasmine talked about figuring out how do we, you know, optimize or set up the correct settings without throwing thousands of humans at it. Never mind the fact you'll never find a thousand people that wanna do that all day every day. >>I was gonna, It's a fold endeavor for those >>People study, right? Yeah. And, and being able to close some of those gaps, whether it's optimization, security, DevOps, C I C D. As we get more of those partners like I just talked about on the floor, then you see more and more enterprises being more open to leaning into Kubernetes a little bit. >>Yeah. Yeah. We've seen, we've had some great conversations the last day and, and today as well with organizations that are history companies like Ford Motor Companies for >>Example. Yeah. Right. >>Just right behind us. One of their EVs and, and it's, they're becoming technology companies that happen to do cars or home >>Here. I had a nice job with 'em this morning. Yes. With that storyline, honestly. >>Yes. That when we now have such a different lens into these organizations, how they're using technologies, advanced technologies, Kubernetes, et cetera, to really become data companies. Yeah. Because they have to be, well the consumers on the other end expect a Home Depot or a Ford or whomever or your bank Yeah. To know who you are. I want the information right here whenever I need it so I can do the transaction I need and I want you to also deliver me information that is relevant to me. Yeah. Because there, there's no patience anymore. Yeah. >>And we partner with a lot of big FinTech companies and it's, it's very much that. It's like how do we continue to optimize? But then as they look at transitioning off of older organizations and capabilities, whether that's, they have a physical data center that's racked to the gills and they can't do anything about that, so they wanna move to cloud or they're just dipping their toe into even private cloud with Kubernetes in their own instances. A lot of it is how do we do this right? Like how do we lean in and, Yeah. >>Yeah. Well I think you said it really well that the debate seems to be over in terms of do we go in on Kubernetes? That that was a theme that I think we felt that yesterday, even on on day one of the keynotes. The community seems to be just craving more. I think that was another thing that we felt yesterday was all of the contributors and the collaborators, people want to be able to help drive this community forward because it's, it's a flywheel of symbiosis for all of the vendors here. The maintainers and, and really businesses in any industry can benefit. >>Yeah. It's super validating. I mean if you just look at the floor, there's like 20 different booths that talk about cost reporting for Kubernetes. So not only have people moved, but now they're dealing with those challenges at scale. And I think for us it's very validating because there's so many vendors that are looking into the reporting of this and showing you the problem that you have. And then where we can help is, okay, now you know, you have a problem, here's how we can fix it for you. >>Yeah. Yeah. That, that sort of dealing with challenges at scale that you set, I think that's also what we're hearing. Yeah. And seeing and feeling on the show floor. >>Yeah, absolutely. >>What can folks see and, and touch and feel in your booth? >>We have some demos there you can play around with the product. We're giving away a Lego set so we've let >>Gotta gets >>Are right now we're gonna have to get some Lego, We do a swag segment at the end of the day every day. Now we've >>Some cool socks. >>Yep. Socks are hot. Let's, let's actually talk about scale internally as our closing question. What's going on at Storm Forge? If someone's watching right now, they're excited. Are you hiring? We are hiring. Yeah. How can they stalk you? What's the >>School? Absolutely. So you can check us out on Storm forge.io. We're certainly hiring across the engineering organization. We're hiring across the UX a product organization. We're dealing, like I said, we've got some really big customers that we're, we're working through with some really fun challenges. And we're looking to continue to build on what we do and do new innovative things like especially cuz like I said, we are a machine learning organization first. And so for me it's like how do I collect all the data that I can and then let's find out what's interesting in there that we can help people with. Whether that's cpu, memory, custom metrics, like as said, preventing kills, driving availability, reliability, What can we do to, to kind of make a little bit more transparent the stuff that's going on underneath the covers in Kubernetes for the decision makers in these organizations. >>Yes. Transparency is a goal of >>Many. >>Yeah, absolutely. Well, and you mentioned fun. If this conversation is any representation, it would be very fun to be working on both of your teams. We, we have a lot of fun Ya. Patrick, thank you so much for joining. Thanks for having us, Lisa, As usual, thanks for being here with me. My pleasure. And thank you to all of you for turning into the Cubes live show from Detroit. My name's Savannah Peterson and we'll be back in a few.

hi everybody this is dave vellante and this is day two of the cube's coverage of falcon 2022 we're live from the aria in las vegas everybody was out last night at the brooklyn bowl awesome band customers were dancing a lot of fun a lot of business going on here todd crosley's here he's to my left he's the senior director of cloud partnerships at crowdstrike and patrick mcdowell is the global technical lead for security partners at aws these guys have been partnering for a long time and we're going to dig into that partnership gents welcome to the cube thanks for having us thanks happy birthday you're very welcome todd talk about the the history of the relationship you guys are kind of bet business on each other but take us back sure thing so you know yesterday or the day before the company turned 11 years old or so i think george talked a lot about that the other day but uh we've actually been working closely with the amazon team for more than five years at this point and it's really evolved into a strategic collaboration really so uh from an executive on down into field alignment channel alignment uh the marketing team and and the build team where we we work with patrick and his extended team on different service integrations and different uh you know effectively positive security outcomes for the customers together i mean patrick if you think about the history of aws it's like you guys realized you had lightning in a bottle and then also realized wow and ecosystem play is the way to go and when you go to re invent it's palpable the the ecosystem innovation and the the flywheel effect that you've created but what's aws's perspective on the partnership with crowdstrike yeah it's essential to us and our customers right so we've been doing deep integrations probably since i think the first big one of crowdstrike was with guard duty amazon guard duty which is our uh easy to use threat detection service in aws one click on and their threat intelligence actually build is built directly into that service so an aws customer turns on guard duty it's automatically uh being uh enhanced and enriched with falcon x threat intelligence uh by default yeah so the cloud has become the first line of defense for a lot of the csos that i talk to you know everybody's cloud first cloud first and it's like okay that's awesome because cloud has really good security but then it's okay but if there's some differences i got there's a shared security model that i have to understand and and so when you guys talk to customers i know it's you know one of the leadership principles is you got to be focused you know insanely focused on customers crowdstrike very customer focused as well that's how you sort of created this company that is doing such innovative things what are customers telling you um about how they want you to work together what kind of feedback are you getting any other examples that you might have in the future yeah sure thing i'll go first so that well so they they depend on uh the like you said this shared security model but there's ample opportunity where vendors like crowdstrike and we've worked with patrick's team extensively to to pinpoint areas where we can provide so examples of that would be like on the in compute so like you recently released the graviton processors we've had a recent success with a customer where uh they've walked down their digital transformation journey they had they were looking to switch over to the graviton processors and we work closely with patrick's team to say okay we're going to certify our sensor uh on that particular area of compute so the customer continue to enjoy crowdstrike in our single-platform cloud-first native platform to say okay you've got skill sets on the on-prem environment your endpoint environment and good news you're switching to graviton no problem we still support that and we've been able to do that by working closely with each other inclusive not just the architects but the product teams work closely together as well yeah in this customer case um you know uh crowdstrike already supported for amazon linux but this customer a very large customer of ours need to move 10 000 ec2 instances to graviton on red hat linux not amazon linux so we got crowdstrike engineering our engineering our architects and we were able to get this customer red hat support for graviton within two months right in production ready to go and unblock this migration so i love the graviton example so what i always default to when somebody says oh we're cloud native i'd say are you running on graviton uh because because graviton is is is uh amazon's custom silicon that complements what you're doing with intel what you're doing with amd and they're all kinds of different instant types but it's based on an arm system and it's delivering new levels of performance and and an energy reduction if i can use that term um and and it's on a new curve yeah and so tremendous cost savings as well right i think out of the box with no change in the application you're getting 20 and that's and i i don't even think you're really driving it as hard as you can is my assessment but you gotta be considerate of these days so but that's an example of of how you're using from a technology standpoint cloud native and then and then sort of partnering does this you know graviton one graviton true graviton three i'm sure there'll be graviton 10 someday no doubt i think it's a good example of us working closely together paying attention to the customer's needs and making sure they don't they don't miss a step and and still stop the breach and pay attention to their security needs so you're part of the apn the amazon partner network yep what do you got to do to be like certified at an elite level there you probably have to go through a lot of hoops and maybe you could describe what you guys do there and how you work together to ensure that a company is adequate and more than adequate for its customers yeah sure thing so we we've participated in and we're certified in for example the security competency area which elevates us amongst other security isvs we're one of the few that have that um we have the well we participate in the well architected program which means that we've demonstrated a common set of criteria and customer references i mean that's a example um another area where we've participated quite a bit is in in the land of digital supply chains notably aws marketplace where we've uh latched on to many of their features and capabilities and participated in strategic programs whether it be um you know including the channel partner or taking a look at traditional private offers or taking a look at like the looping in the entire ecosystem to make sure the customer gets what they need so how do you integrate with things like control tower where where are the seams and how do you make that as seamless as possible for customers or maybe you can explain what control power yeah so uh they have multiple integrations for control tower for their cspm horizon uh it automatically onboards new aws accounts so uh you know as you're vending accounts you're giving to more devops teams horizon is automatically deploying and being protected those accounts so it has those guard rails in place for customers in a nice easy to use deployment model that you don't have to think about right so control tower in general is uh it kind of gives customers guard rails an easy button if you're new to aws i'm migrating hey aws can you just tell me the best practices how should i set up my accounts i need a landing zone i'm doing migration so it's really like a wizard for getting started in aws and crowdstrike integrates that with falcon discover and as well as falcon horizon and your age so yeah you guys really don't compete um you know maybe there's some overlap overlap is better than than gaps but you know when you when you take something like you know network firewalls and things like that amazon brings that to the table and then crowdstrike will build on top of that is that correct yeah i'll take this one uh so george has said it crowdstrike is not a network security company right however they have an integration using their threat intelligence on on our amazon network firewall so aws amazon and crouchstrike coming together actually have a joint offering for customers in a space that crowdstrike has never been in before itself so i think that's very exciting so yeah yeah all those integrations that pat's talking about we've actually cataloged the whole thing on a github page where we find that's where customers go they took a look at the integration and the supporting documentation we're like okay yeah this makes sense this these two companies augment each other well and it turns out to be a good outcome and you check you'll take telemetry data from the aws cloud you can take it from you know any your agents can run anywhere right and then you bring that in to the or i guess you sort of you index it i in my term in in the aws cloud enables that because you've got virtually unlimited scaling capability and that's kind of where you guys started yeah cloud native dogma that's right yeah it's a competitive differentiator for us uh i we think it's nice we're a market leader in our space and amazon's a market leader in their space and and we've got a lot of synergy together where do you guys last question where do you guys respectively want to see the the relationship go if you had to put on your binoculars or even telescope where do you want to see this go well i think we're i think we're all in the business of accelerating positive security outcomes for the customer and the what we're doing is we're spending a lot of time educating our respective fields and respective customers to know that these these integrations do in fact exist uh they absolutely complement each other we were in a meeting uh you know maybe six ten months ago we're in a cio said i didn't know that the two that the two products work so well together speaking about the control tower and horizon particular example had i known that i would have bought it uh a lot quicker this is this is a great outcome and the fact that you're working with amazon together is a bit of a relief so that was nice yeah i'm gonna echo what george kirk said in his keynote yesterday that like security's a journey xdr is a journey and i think the work that we did on the open cyber security schema framework which is an open source common uh security language that all vendors can use including aws and crowdstrike i think that is where we're going to see uh the the industry rally around in the upcoming year there's so much security data there's a common uh now language that all products and clouds could talk to each other that's right tell tell me more about it ocsf is that right where did that come from and yeah so um it's it's a it's an open source framework and you know both crowdstrike aws and other uh you know players in the industry are like there's a common problem none of our products talk together it's all about customer benefit right so what can we do to democratize security data make things talk well play together everyone wants to do more analytics on lots of data lakes so this is where it's all coming together yeah better collaboration in industry obviously is is needed and then the other piece is education you guys both sort of refer to that that's what i when i come to conferences like this and reinforce as well as a lot of it i mean i remember the first reinforcement was like explaining the shared responsibility model now of course a lot of people understood it but a lot of people didn't when you fast forward to 2022 and reinvent it was a lot more focused on how to really exploit the capabilities that aws has and then here at crowdstrike it's like okay helping practitioners really understand how to take advantage of the full platform and and that's to your point patrick the journey all right guys hey we got to go thanks so much you for having us all right keep it right there fast and furious day two from crowdstrike's falcon 2022. you're watching thecube [Music] you

>>Good morning, everyone. Welcome back to the Cube's coverage of snowflake summit live from Caesar's forum in Las Vegas, Lisa Martin, with Dave Valante. Dave, we have had an action packed two days here, talking with loads of folks. There's been about 10,000 attendees here, the momentum, the excitement for snowflake, what they're building, what they're, what they've announced is huge. >>I'll tell you like this is a getaway day and there's still decent amount of buzz going on in the ecosystem here and the exhibit hall. And I was just saying, when you walk around Las Vegas, you'd never know the economy's about the tank with, you know, inflation is on the rise. I mean, Vegas is packed. >>It is packed it a lot of shows going on here. We are excited to welcome Patrick Barch, the senior director of product management at capital one software to the program. Patrick, it's great to have you. >>Thank you. It's great to be here. >>So we all know capital one. I love the commercials. I'm sure you have a, a large say in how fun and creative they are. Talk to us about capital one software. This is a new business software business. It >>Is. And so, you know, from our founding days in 1994, capital one has always recognized the power of data and technology to create differentiated experiences for our customers. But about 10 years ago, we declared that we were gonna reinvent the way that we build and use technology. One of the key steps in that journey was migrating from our owned and operated data centers to the public cloud. But in order to do that, we needed to build a number of products and platforms to help us operate at scale because the market just wasn't quite there yet. And so capital one software, which we announced last week, Woohoo is our first foray into bringing some of those cloud and data management products to market. >>Talk to us about you. Capital one is one of Snowflake's longest running and largest customers. How does snowflake help facilitate that >>A couple different ways? So first snowflake is a, it's a super powerful platform. They've changed the game when it comes to leveraging data. At scale in the cloud, we were an early investor. We were, we were one of their biggest customers. They've been a great partner along the way, helping us adopt the platform. But for us, when we adopted back in 2018 ish, we realized that with all of this power comes a lot of responsibility. And so we needed to make sure that we were putting good governance and good controls around our usage of snowflake from the start. And so, you know, we, we, we needed to build some, some tools to help us optimize our, our usage of snowflake. >>Okay. So you basically said we're going all in the cloud. You guys have made huge investments in, in AWS and obviously snowflake. And then now you're, you're sort of taking what you did internally and exposing it almost like, like Amazon did Amazon retail and then that's how AWS was born. Okay, awesome. What kind of results did you see internally in terms of the primary benefit? If I understand it is cost savings, but also better data management, right? Is that fair? >>So the, the totality of what we've built internally covers both cost savings, data management, data security, adherence to data privacy legislation. The product that we announced here at summit is really focused on cost optimization for snowflake, right? And so with these tools, we've been able to save about 27% on our projected snowflake costs. We've been able to save our teams about 50,000 hours of manual effort by reducing the number of change orders that they have to execute manually through automated infrastructure management. We've reduced our cost per query by about 43%. And so really what these enabled us to do is just get really efficient with how we use the system. You know, one, one of the challenges you might run into with snowflake is, is unexpected costs. And so by leveraging these tools, we've been able to make sure that our costs are predictable and consistent from month to month, which enables us to budget appropriately. >>And, and that's 50,000 hours person hours over what period of time >>Have to get back to you on the exact amounts? I mean, >>Years, months, several years. Weeks. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, but we're talking about tens and tens of millions of dollars, right? If you, I mean, just assume a hundred bucks an hour for, for a person just fully loaded. I mean, I'll just do that math. Okay. And 20% percent on snowflake cost. So here's, here's the question? Well, well, first of all, what's the vision, what's the like gimme a five year vision for, for the software group at capital one, >>We wanna bring capital one's data and cloud management expertise to the masses. Okay. We've spoken to a number of companies that are trying to follow in our footsteps. We've, we've heard again and again, that our challenges are their challenges. Our, the path that we walked is the path that they're trying to walk in. So we are super excited about bringing all of our expertise to the market. >>So start with cost savings, but the vision transcends cost savings, absolutely going into security, privacy, data management, >>Absolutely absolutely workflow. And the, the, you know, the industry's in a super interesting place now where it's very fragmented. There is a galaxy of tools out there. You, you look around here, there's hundreds and hundreds of different solutions, but they're point solutions. They're all going after an individual piece of the management puzzle. And what we found was that we needed to create these integrated experiences that were aligned to our team's jobs to be done, not necessarily in terms of, you know, a capability like cataloging or quality or entitlements, you know, in order to efficiently operate at scale, you need to string those things together in a way that lets your team get their job done. >>So my last question on this flow is, I dunno if you're familiar with you guys, maybe familiar with Sarah Wong and Martin CASAA published a piece that got, you know, pretty wide viewing and discussion. They are out out of Andreesen, a 16 Z that the cost of good sold for SaaS companies who are born in the cloud are gonna become so overwhelming that they're gonna repatriate and start managing themselves. And they use Dropbox as an example. Now Dropbox is storage. So it's very specific niche, you know, and I've talked to many, many companies like snowflake about this, and they're like, eh, that ain't happening anytime soon. How do you feel about that? Because if you look at SAS companies that are born in the cloud, their gross margins are, you know, they don't get to 90%, but they're healthy, you know, 75, you know, sometimes 78% even snowflakes, you know, end of decade forecast Scarelli has it. I think it's 78%. And the reason it's not higher is because of the cloud cost. You gotta pay the cloud bills, my belief and I've argued, this is that's okay. I can negotiate cloud bills. I can work with tools like yours over time to keep those down. And the cloud guys are gonna be competing with each other, but, but what do you make of that Patrick >>Cloud costs? Aren't gonna go down. Data is expanding at an exponential rate. The scale of data today is orders of magnitude versus what it was in on-prem systems. And so, you know, I don't think the cloud providers are too worried because data is exploding at such a, a crazy pace. And so it really becomes about using all of those resources as efficiently as possible. And, and in the cloud where compute is fully elastic, it scales infinitely instantly on demand. You know, it's all about getting it's, it's, it's all about making sure that if you're spending more, you're getting more business value. There's not wastage in the system. >>Same question, but different. Do you feel like strategically organizations generally in capital one specifically will, will, will optimize their time on optimizing or spend their, their effort optimizing the cloud costs? Or do you feel like long term you can actually be cheaper to manage yourself? In other words, our, our cloud benefits of not doing all that heavy lifting offset that potential, you know, cost equation. >>I mean, you saved just so much time and effort and headache, not having to manage physical infrastructure. And so like, you know, snowflake, you can write a sequel command to create a database. You can write a sequel command to create a data warehouse. Like the market will not give up that level of simplicity for managing infrastructure. And so I think at the end of the day, you're gonna, you're gonna see a focus on efficiency because what you really want your teams to be focused on your old, your old DBA and data engineering teams is focused on driving customer value, not in the weeds of infrastructure management. >>And that's why I think you guys, this is a great business that you're starting. And I think you, I, frankly, I think you're gonna get a lot of competition, which is a good thing that says you're in a great business and you guys are first >>Talk about the customer experience. You know, we are also as consumers demanding, we wanna be able to transact ASAP. We wanna make sure that, you know, on the swipe fraud detection happens, how does the Slingshot help facilitate and improve the customer experience if I'm transacting or I'm gonna sign up or I'm getting a mortgage. >>So with Slingshot, we enable your company, regardless of what you do at, at capital one, we're, we're a bank to build more personalized experiences for customers in a more cost effective way. And so Enno is our, our intelligent, personal banking assistant with snowflake. We're enable Enno to do way more than we were previously for less than we would've without some of these tools. >>And that's a huge competitive differentiator because we expect as consumers and of whatever it is. We want a personalized experience, right? That's relevant. That's gonna offer us products and services that might build upon what we've already done. >>It's it's kind of table stakes these days. Yes. And so with these tools and with snowflake, we were able to onboard our business teams were able to onboard over 400 new use cases over, over that same time period. And so really what it's enabled us to do is unlock the innovative power of our company and create more of these customer experiences. >>How does the customer visualize those, those cost savings? And, and, and do, do, do you have some tooling, maybe it's in the works to help them predict what kind of cost savings they have based on some modeling that >>You do. And absolutely. So we enable teams to enforce good governance around infrastructure management, up front by building rules and enabling their teams to create warehouses, create databases. And then once that infrastructure is up and running, we give them a whole bunch of dashboards that show transparency and to spend, we enable chargebacks to lines of business in today's consumption, driven business models. It's hard to reconcile at the end of the month, if you spent what you thought you spent and, and data costs have gone from CapEx to OPEX and, but not everybody is an expert. And so we look at usage data, we look at usage history and we come up with recommendations for how you can save money by, you know, tweaking this or tweaking that or better optimizing your, your compute. >>Should we expect you as you expand your opportunity to take your expertise and aim it at AWS more broadly, maybe Redshift more specifically, Google GCP, big query Azure, what, what should we expect there? >>You know, there's, there's a lot of opportunity to help companies optimize costs across other cloud providers as well. This, this concept of elastic compute, isn't just specific to snowflake. That's certainly one path that we could go down. You know, we have a lot of expertise in, in data management as well, and data privacy, data security. And so that's that, that's another path as well that, that we have expertise in. And so, you know, I think it's, it's an exciting time we're in, we're in an exciting place, but it's early days, >>Did you do a working backwards document? Can you share that with us? >>Fortunately >>Not five, five or 10 years down the road, you may decide to do that, right? >>Yeah. Let me, let me check with my PR person to see if I'm allowed to share here. That's >>I mean, I think this is gonna be a huge success and, and I think it it's, it's, it follows a lot of the things that we've learned from AWS. Yeah. And you guys have been all in there and, and, you know, it's funny, right? We laugh about working backwards, customer obsession, two pizza teams. I mean, it really has changed the sort of way that we think about developing software and, and managing infrastructures. I, I think you're gonna have a, a huge business and I, I wish you the best. >>I, I appreciate that. And the, the thing, a lot of that statement is, you know, internal teams are now starting to demand consumer great experiences for the tools that they use. Yeah, for sure. And so one of the things that we did was treat our internal associates. Like they were external customers, we applied design thinking, we applied product management, we built our experience in terms of what are you trying to accomplish? And what's getting in your way, because that's what people have come to expect with all of these consumer experiences, >>Collaboration. That's right. What last question for you? What would you say to peers in your, whatever, same industry, other industries that are really trying to figure out how to get their hands on data to become a data company, what would you advise them? Why should they choose >>Snowflake gives you so many building blocks out of the box to help you create a, a well-managed data ecosystem? You know, the simplicity with which you can create new infrastructure, define policies for that infrastructure onboard new users. I mean, it, it's one of the platforms in internally capital one that has the highest NPS score. And so, you know, if you're looking to adopt a, a data cloud platform, I mean, snowflake is certainly high up on the list of what you should be looking at. >>That's >>Awesome. How do you, do you consider this a SA, is it a consumption or how do you price for this? >>So we, we don't have published pricing at the moment, but it is, it is a SAS product. You know, what we can share is it'll, it'll be a, you know, small fraction of, of your, of your total credit spend with snowflake and, and >>You're thinking a subscription or, or haven't figured that out yet, >>It it'll likely be a, a consumption model based on, you know. Okay. >>So the, so, so say, you know, it's funny SAS, I get it. Software's a service, but it, but because it's consumption, I think it's like modern SAS. If I can say that, you know, it's cloud >>SAS and it, it, you know, it's more important to make sure right now, because we're so early that we're actually providing the right value to customers. We have a pretty generous trial program going on right now where you can try the, the, the software out for free to make sure it, it fits your needs. So, >>Okay. So you're in trial, right. I should have clarified that you're in trial now. And, and so, yeah, of course you haven't figured out exactly how you're gonna price it yet. But >>The, the, the official posture that we're taking is public preview. We've, we've been in private preview for the last six months. We've onboarded a, a couple of customers who are starting to use the product. And so the, the big announcement this week is we're officially in public preview, come on in. >>So you gotta get product market fit. That's right. Before you figure out your pricing and before you, then you, then you're gonna scale. Great. >>What's been the feedback so far >>Overwhelmingly positive. Somebody stopped by the booth and said, oh my God, that's so cool. We've heard a lot of, wow, we need this right now. You know, it's, I had pretty, pretty high expectations coming in, just based on the value that this is created for capital one, but I've, I've been blown away by, by what I've heard from the people who've stopped by our booth. >>Awesome. Patrick, thank you for joining Dave and me on the program, talking about what you're doing with capital one software seems like you're just in early innings, but so much potential to come. We wish you the best of luck with that. And you have to come back and tell us how it's going. Thanks so much. Thanks for having me, our pleasure for Dave ante. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube our day three coverage of snowflake summit 22 live from Las Vegas continues after a short break.

>>Hey everyone. Welcome back to the Cube's coverage of snowflake summit. 22 live from Las Vegas. We're at Caesar's forum, Lisa Martin, with Dave ante. We've been having some great conversations over the last day and a half. This guy just came from main stage interviewing the CEO, Franks Lubin himself, who joins us after our next guest here, we're gonna be talking customers and successes with snowflake Rosemary Hua joins us the global head of retail at snowflake and Patrick Kelly, the VP of product management at their customer 84 51. Welcome to the program guys. >>Thank you. It's nice to be here. So >>Patrick, 84 51. Talk to us about the business, give the audience an overview of what you guys are doing. And then we'll talk about how you're working with snowflake. >>Yeah, absolutely. Thank you both for, uh, the opportunity to be here. So 84 51 is a retail data science insights and media company. And really what that means is that we, we partner with our, uh, parent company Kroger, as well as consumer packaged goods or brands and brokers and agencies, really to understand shoppers and create relevant, personalized, and valuable experiences for shoppers in source and grocery stores. >>That relevance is key. We all expect that these days, I think the last couple of years as everyone's patience has been wearing. Yeah, very thin. I'm not, I'm not convinced it's gonna come back either, but we expect that brands are gonna interact with us and offer us the next best offer. That's actually relevant and personalized to us. How does AB 4 51 achieve that? >>Yeah, it's a great question. And you're right. That expectation is only growing. Um, and it takes data analytics, data science and all of these capabilities in order to deliver it on that promise, uh, you know, big, a big part of the relationship that retailers and brands have with consumers is about a value exchange. And it's, again, it's about that expectation that brands and retailers need to be able to meet the ever-changing needs of consumers. Uh, whether that be introducing new brands or offering the right price points or promotions or ensuring you meet them where they are, whether it be online, which has obviously been catalyzed by, um, the pandemic over the last two years or in store. So a deep understanding of, of the customer, which is founded in data and the appropriate analytics and science, and then the collaboration back with the retailers and, and the brands so that you can bring that experience to life. Again, that could be a price point on the, on the shelf, um, or it could be a personalized email or, um, website interaction that delivers the right experience for the co for the consumer. So they can see that value and really build loyalty >>In the right time in real time. That's >>One of the most Marrit I'm in real time. That's right. One goes, Mary, I love the concept of the, the actual platform of the retail data cloud. Yes. It's so unique for a technology company. Snowflake's a technology company, you see services companies do it all the time, but yeah, but to actually transform what was considered a data warehouse in the cloud to a platform for data, I call it super cloud. Yeah. Tell us how this came about, um, how you were able to actually develop this and where you are in that journey. >>Yeah, absolutely. It's been a big focus on data sharing. We saw that that's how our customers are interacting with each other is using our data sharing functionality to really bring that ecosystem to life. So that's retailers sharing with their consumer products companies selling through those retailers. And then of course the data service companies that are kind of helping both sides and that data sharing functionality is the kind of under fabric for the data cloud, where we bring in partners. We bring in customers and we bring in tech solutions to the table. Um, and customers can use the data cloud, not only with the powered by partners that we have, but also the data marketplace, getting that data in real time and making some business value out of that data. So that's really the big focus of snowflake is investing in industry to realize the business value >>And talk about ecosystem and how important that is, where, where you leave off and the ecosystem picks up and how that's evolving. >>Absolutely. And I'm sure you can join in on this, but, um, definitely that collaboration between retailers and CPGs, right? I mean, retailers have that rich first party customer data. They see all those transactions, they see when people are shopping and then the brands really need that first party data to figure out what their, how their customers are interacting with their brand. And so that collaborative nature that makes up the ecosystem. And of course, you've got the tech partners in the middle that are kind of providing enrich data assets as well. You guys at 84 51 are a huge part of that ecosystem being, you know, one of the key retailers in, in the United States. Um, have you been seeing that as well with your brands? Yeah, >>Absolutely. I mean data and data science has always been core to the identity of 84 51. Um, and historically a lot of the interaction that we have with brands were through report web based applications, right. And it's a really great seamless way to, to deliver insights to non-technical users. But as the entire market has really started to invest in data and data science and technology and capabilities, you know, we, we launched a collaborative cloud last year and it was really an opportunity for us to reimagine what that experience would look like and to ensure that we are meeting the evolving needs of the industry. And as Rosemary pointed out, you know, data sharing is, is table stakes, right? It's a capability that you don't wanna have to think about. You wanna be thinking about the strategic initiatives, the science that you're gonna create in order to drive action and personalize experiences. So what we've found at 84 51 is really investing in our collaborative cloud, um, and working with leading technology providers like snowflake to make that seamless has been, you know, the, the, the UN unlock to ensure that data and data science can be a competitive advantage for our clients and partners, not just, you know, the retailer in 84 51 >>Is the collaborative cloud built on snowflake. >>Yeah. So the collaborative cloud is really about, um, ensuring that data sharing through snowflake is done seamlessly. So we've really, we've invited our clients and partners to build their own science on 84 51 S first party data asset through Kroger. And our, our data is represents 60 million households, half of the United States, 2 billion transactions annually, the robustness of that data asset. And it's it's it's analysis ready is so impactful to the investment that brands can make in their own data science efforts, because brands wanna invest in data science, not to do data work, not to do cleaning and Muning and, and merging and, and standardizing. They wanna do analysis. That's gonna impact the strategies and ultimately the shopper's lives. So again, we're able to leverage the capabilities of snowflake to ensure data sharing is not part of our day to day conversation. Data sharing is something we can take for granted so that we can talk about the shopper and our strategies. >>So this is why I call it super cloud. So Jerry Chen wrote an article of castles in the cloud. And in there he said, he called it sub clouds. And I'm like, no, it's, uh, by the way, great article. Jerry's brilliant. But so you got AWS, you built on top of AWS. That's right. You got the snowflake data called you're building on top of that. And I was sitting at the table and my kid goes, this is super, I'm like, ah, super clouds. So I didn't really even coin it, but, and then I realized somebody else had use it before, but that is different. It's new, it's around data. It's around vertical industries. Yes. Um, I, I get a lot of heat for that term, but I feel like this look around this industry, everybody's doing that that's that is digital transformation. That's don't you see that with your customers? >>Absolutely. I mean, there's a lot of different industry trends where you can't use your own historical first party data to figure out what customers are doing. I mean, with COVID customers are behaving totally differently than they used to. And you can't use your historical data to predict out of stocks or how the customer's gonna be interacting with your brand anymore. And you need that third party macroeconomic data. You need that third party COVID data or foot traffic data to enrich what your businesses are doing. And so, yes, it, it is a super cloud. And I think the big differentiator is that we are cloud agnostic, meaning that, like you said, you can take the technology for granted. You don't have to worry about where the other person has their tech stack. It's all the same experience on the snowflake super cloud as he put it. So, >>So Patrick, talk about the, the, the impact that you have been able to have during COVID. I mean, everybody had supply chain issues, but, you know, if you took, if you took away the machine learning and the data science that you are initiating, would life have been harder? Do you have data on that? You know, the, the, what if we didn't have this capability during the >>Challenges? No, it's, it's a fantastic question. And I'll actually build on the example that Rosemary, um, offered around COVID and better understanding COVID. So, um, in the past, you know, when we talk about data sharing data collaboration, it's basically wasn't possible, right? What's your tech stack, what's mine. How do we share data? I don't wanna send you my data without go releasing governance. It was a non-starter and, you know, through technology like snowflake, as we launched the collaborative cloud, we actually had a pilot client start right at the beginning of 2020. Um, we, we had, you know, speced out it onto use cases that really impactful for their, for their organization. But of course, what happened is, uh, a pandemic hit us and it became the biggest question, CEO executive team, all the way down is what is happening, what is happening in our stores? >>How are shoppers behaving and what, what that client of ours came to realize is while we, we actually, we have access to the E 4 51 collaborative cloud. We can see half of America's behavior last week down to the basket transaction UPC level. Let's get going. So again, the conversation wasn't about, you know, what data sources, how do we scramble? How do we get it together? What technologies, how do we collaborate? It was immediately focused on building the analysis to better understand that. And, and the outcomes that drove actually were all the way from manufacturing impact to marketing, to merchandising, because that brand was able to figure out, Hey, our top selling products, they're, they're not on the shelves. What are shoppers doing? Are they going to a, another brand? Are they not buying it all together? Are they going to a different size? Are they staying within our product portfolio? Are they going to a competitor? And those insights drove everything again from what do we need to manufacture more to, how do we need to communicate and incent our, our, our shoppers, our, our loyal shoppers also what's happening to our non loyals. Are they looking for an, you know, an alternative that a need that we can serve that level of, of shopper and customer understanding going all the way up to a strategic initiatives is something that is enabled through the Supercloud >><laugh>. How do you facilitate privacy as we're seeing this proliferation of privacy legislation? Yeah. I think there's now 22 states that have individual, and California's changing to CPR a at the beginning of yes, January 23. How do you balance that need that ability to share data? Yeah. Equitably fast, quickly, but also balance consumer privacy requirements. >>I mean, I could take a stab first. I mean, at snowflake, right, there is no better place to share your data that in a governed way than with snowflake data sharing, because then you can see and understand how the other side is using your data. Whereas in traditional methods, using an API or using an FTP server, you wouldn't be able to actually see how the other side is using your data. But in addition to that, we have the clean room where you can actually join on that underlying PII data without exposing it, because you can share functions securely on, on both sides. So I think there is no better place to do it than here at snowflake. Um, and because we deeply understand those policies, I think we are kind of keeping up with the times trying to get in front of things so that our data sharing capabilities stay up to date. When you have to expunge records, identify records with CCPA and, and GDPR and, and all the rest that are coming. Um, and so, so, I mean, I think especially with 84 50 ones, um, you know, collaborative cloud also building on top of the clean room, um, in, in further road in the further roadmap, I think, uh, you're gonna see some of that privacy compliant, data sharing, coming to play as well. You >>Know, what's interesting, Patrick is we were just in that session with the Frank Q and a, and he was very candid about when he was talking about, uh, Apache, uh, I'm sorry. Apache iceberg. Yeah. Yes. And he, he basically flat out said, look, you know, you gotta put it into the snowflake data cloud. It's, it's better there, but people might, you know, want to put it outside, not get locked in, et cetera. But what I'm, I'm listening to you saying it's so much easier for you today that could evolve something open source. And, and how do you think about that in terms of placing your bets? >>Yeah, it, it's a great question and really to go back to privacy, um, as a total topic, I mean, you're right. It's extremely relevant topic. It's, it's, you know, very ever changing right now at 84 51. Privacy is, is first it's the foundation. Um, it it's table stakes and that's from a policy that's from a governance, it's from a technology capability standpoint. And it's part of our, our culture because, um, it, it, because it has to be, uh, and, and so when we, when we think about, you know, the products that we're gonna build, how we want to implement, it's, it's a requirement that we leverage technologies that enable us to secure the governance and ensure that we're privacy compliant. Um, the customer data asset that we have is, is, you know, is extremely valuable as we've talked about in this interview, it's also responsibility. And we take that very, very seriously. And so, you know, Dave, back to your question about, you know, decisions to go, you know, open source or leverage for technologies. So there's always a balance. You know, we, we love to push the, the bounds of innovation and, and we wanna be on the forefront of data, sharing data, science, collaboration for this industry. But at the same time, we balance that with making sure that our technology partners are the right ones, because we are not willing to compromise our governance and our fir and our, our privacy, uh, priorities. >>That's gonna be interesting to see how that evolves. And I, I loved that. Frank was so candid about it. I think the key for any cloud player, including a super cloud is you gotta have an ecosystem without an ecosystem. Forget it. And you see a lot of companies. I mean, we were at Dell tech world. They're kind of, they're at the beginnings of that, but the ecosystems, nothing like this, right. Which is amazing, nothing against, against Dell, they're just kind of getting started and you have to be open. You have to have optionality. Yep. You know, so I, I don't know if we'll see the day where they're including data, bricks, data lakes inside of the snowflake cloud. That will be amazing. <laugh> but you know, you never say never in the world of cloud, >>Do you stranger things, Rosemary and Patrick, thank you so much for joining us talking about what 84 51 is doing powered by snowflake and also the rise of the snowflake retail cloud and what that's doing. We'll have to have you back on to hear what's going on as I'm sure the adoption will continue to increase. Absolutely. Thank you so much to both for having us, our pleasure. You appreciate this for our guests. I'm Lisa Martin. He's Dave ante stick around Dave will be back with Frankman CEO of snowflake. Next. You won't wanna miss it.

>> Instructor: "theCUBE" presents KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2022, brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to Valencia, Spain and we're at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon Europe 2022. I'm Keith Townsend, and my co-host, Enrico Signoretti. Enrico's really proud of me. I've called him Enrico instead of Enrique every session. >> Every day. >> Senior IT analyst at GigaOm. We're talking to fantastic builders at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon Europe 2022 about the projects and their efforts. Enrico, up to this point, it's been all about provisioning, insecurity, what conversation have we been missing? >> Well, I mean, I think that we passed the point of having the conversation of deployment, of provisioning. Everybody's very skilled, actually everything is done at day two. They are discovering that, well, there is a security problem. There is an observability problem a and in fact, we are meeting with a lot of people and there are a lot of conversation with people really needing to understand what is happening. I mean, in their cluster work, why it is happening and all the questions that come with it. And the more I talk with people in the show floor here or even in the various sessions is about, we are growing so that our clusters are becoming bigger and bigger, applications are becoming bigger as well. So we need to now understand better what is happening. As it's not only about cost, it's about everything at the end. >> So I think that's a great set up for our guests, Matt Provo, founder and CEO of StormForge and Patrick Brixton? >> Bergstrom. >> Bergstrom. >> Yeah. >> I spelled it right, I didn't say it right, Bergstrom, CTO. We're at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon where projects are discussed, built and StormForge, I've heard the pitch before, so forgive me. And I'm kind of torn. I have service mesh. What do I need more, like what problem is StormForge solving? >> You want to take it? >> Sure, absolutely. So it's interesting because, my background is in the enterprise, right? I was an executive at UnitedHealth Group before that I worked at Best Buy and one of the issues that we always had was, especially as you migrate to the cloud, it seems like the CPU dial or the memory dial is your reliability dial. So it's like, oh, I just turned that all the way to the right and everything's hunky-dory, right? But then we run into the issue like you and I were just talking about, where it gets very very expensive very quickly. And so my first conversations with Matt and the StormForge group, and they were telling me about the product and what we're dealing with. I said, that is the problem statement that I have always struggled with and I wish this existed 10 years ago when I was dealing with EC2 costs, right? And now with Kubernetes, it's the same thing. It's so easy to provision. So realistically what it is, is we take your raw telemetry data and we essentially monitor the performance of your application, and then we can tell you using our machine learning algorithms, the exact configuration that you should be using for your application to achieve the results that you're looking for without over-provisioning. So we reduce your consumption of CPU, of memory and production which ultimately nine times out of 10, actually I would say 10 out of 10, reduces your cost significantly without sacrificing reliability. >> So can your solution also help to optimize the application in the long run? Because, yes, of course-- >> Yep. >> The lowering fluid as you know optimize the deployment. >> Yeah. >> But actually the long-term is optimizing the application. >> Yes. >> Which is the real problem. >> Yep. >> So, we're fine with the former of what you just said, but we exist to do the latter. And so, we're squarely and completely focused at the application layer. As long as you can track or understand the metrics you care about for your application, we can optimize against it. We love that we don't know your application, we don't know what the SLA and SLO requirements are for your app, you do, and so, in our world it's about empowering the developer into the process, not automating them out of it and I think sometimes AI and machine learning sort of gets a bad rap from that standpoint. And so, at this point the company's been around since 2016, kind of from the very early days of Kubernetes, we've always been, squarely focused on Kubernetes, using our core machine learning engine to optimize metrics at the application layer that people care about and need to go after. And the truth of the matter is today and over time, setting a cluster up on Kubernetes has largely been solved. And yet the promise of Kubernetes around portability and flexibility, downstream when you operationalize, the complexity smacks you in the face and that's where StormForge comes in. And so we're a vertical, kind of vertically oriented solution, that's absolutely focused on solving that problem. >> Well, I don't want to play, actually. I want to play the devils advocate here and-- >> You wouldn't be a good analyst if you didn't. >> So the problem is when you talk with clients, users, there are many of them still working with Java, something that is really tough. I mean, all of us loved Java. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Maybe 20 years ago. Yeah, but not anymore, but still they have developers, they have porting applications, microservices. Yes, but not very optimized, et cetera, cetera, et cetera. So it's becoming tough. So how you can interact with this kind of old hybrid or anyway, not well engineered applications. >> Yeah. >> We do that today. We actually, part of our platform is we offer performance testing in a lower environment and stage and we, like Matt was saying, we can use any metric that you care about and we can work with any configuration for that application. So perfect example is Java, you have to worry about your heap size, your garbage collection tuning and one of the things that really struck me very early on about the StormForge product is because it is true machine learning. You remove the human bias from that. So like a lot of what I did in the past, especially around SRE and performance tuning, we were only as good as our humans were because of what they knew. And so, we kind of got stuck in these paths of making the same configuration adjustments, making the same changes to the application, hoping for different results. But then when you apply machine learning capability to that the machine will recommend things you never would've dreamed of. And you get amazing results out of that. >> So both me and Enrico have been doing this for a long time. Like, I have battled to my last breath the argument when it's a bare metal or a VM, look, I cannot give you any more memory. >> Yeah. >> And the argument going all the way up to the CIO and the CIO basically saying, you know what, Keith you're cheap, my developer resources are expensive, buy bigger box. >> Yeah. >> Yap. >> Buying a bigger box in the cloud to your point is no longer a option because it's just expensive. >> Yeah. >> Talk to me about the carrot or the stick as developers are realizing that they have to be more responsible. Where's the culture change coming from? Is it the shift in responsibility? >> I think the center of the bullseye for us is within those sets of decisions, not in a static way, but in an ongoing way, especially as the development of applications becomes more and more rapid and the management of them. Our charge and our belief wholeheartedly is that you shouldn't have to choose. You should not have to choose between costs or performance. You should not have to choose where your applications live, in a public private or hybrid cloud environment. And so, we want to empower people to be able to sit in the middle of all of that chaos and for those trade offs and those difficult interactions to no longer be a thing. We're at a place now where we've done hundreds of deployments and never once have we met a developer who said, "I'm really excited to get out of bed and come to work every day and manually tune my application." One side, secondly, we've never met, a manager or someone with budget that said, please don't increase the value of my investment that I've made to lift and shift us over to the cloud or to Kubernetes or some combination of both. And so what we're seeing is the converging of these groups, their happy place is the lack of needing to be able to make those trade offs, and that's been exciting for us. >> So, I'm listening and looks like that your solution is right in the middle in application performance, management, observability. >> Yeah. >> And, monitoring. >> Yeah. >> So it's a little bit of all of this. >> Yeah, so we want to be, the intel inside of all of that, we often get lumped into one of those categories, it used to be APM a lot, we sometimes get, are you observability or and we're really not any of those things, in and of themselves, but we instead we've invested in deep integrations and partnerships with a lot of that tooling 'cause in a lot of ways, the tool chain is hardening in a cloud native and in Kubernetes world. And so, integrating in intelligently, staying focused and great at what we solve for, but then seamlessly partnering and not requiring switching for our users who have already invested likely, in a APM or observability. >> So to go a little bit deeper. What does it mean integration? I mean, do you provide data to this, other applications in the environment or are they supporting you in the work that you do. >> Yeah, we're a data consumer for the most part. In fact, one of our big taglines is take your observability and turn it into action ability, right? Like how do you take that, it's one thing to collect all of the data, but then how do you know what to do with it, right? So to Matt's point, we integrate with folks like Datadog, we integrate with Prometheus today. So we want to collect that telemetry data and then do something useful with it for you. >> But also we want Datadog customers, for example, we have a very close partnership with Datadog so that in your existing Datadog dashboard, now you have-- >> Yeah. >> The StormForge capability showing up in the same location. >> Yep. >> And so you don't have to switch out. >> So I was just going to ask, is it a push pull? What is the developer experience when you say you provide developer this resolve ML learnings about performance, how do they receive it? Like, what's the developer experience. >> They can receive it, for a while we were CLI only, like any good developer tool. >> Right. >> And, we have our own UI. And so it is a push in a lot of cases where I can come to one spot, I've got my applications and every time I'm going to release or plan for a release or I have released and I want to pull in observability data from a production standpoint, I can visualize all of that within the StormForge UI and platform, make decisions, we allow you to set your, kind of comfort level of automation that you're okay with. You can be completely set and forget or you can be somewhere along that spectrum and you can say, as long as it's within, these thresholds, go ahead and release the application or go ahead and apply the configuration. But we also allow you to experience the same, a lot of the same functionality right now, in Grafana, in Datadog and a bunch of others that are coming. >> So I've talked to Tim Crawford who talks to a lot of CIOs and he's saying one of the biggest challenges or if not, one of the biggest challenges CIOs are facing are resource constraints. >> Yeah. >> They cannot find the developers to begin with to get this feedback. How are you hoping to address this biggest pain point for CIOs-- >> Yeah.6 >> And developers? >> You should take that one. >> Yeah, absolutely. So like my background, like I said at UnitedHealth Group, right. It's not always just about cost savings. In fact, the way that I look about at some of these tech challenges, especially when we talk about scalability there's kind of three pillars that I consider, right? There's the tech scalability, how am I solving those challenges? There's the financial piece 'cause you can only throw money at a problem for so long and it's the same thing with the human piece. I can only find so many bodies and right now that pool is very small, and so, we are absolutely squarely in that footprint of we enable your team to focus on the things that they matter, not manual tuning like Matt said. And then there are other resource constraints that I think that a lot of folks don't talk about too. Like, you were talking about private cloud for instance and so having a physical data center, I've worked with physical data centers that companies I've worked for have owned where it is literally full, wall to wall. You can't rack any more servers in it, and so their biggest option is, well, I could spend $1.2 billion to build a new one if I wanted to, or if you had a capability to truly optimize your compute to what you needed and free up 30% of your capacity of that data center. So you can deploy additional name spaces into your cluster, like that's a huge opportunity. >> So I have another question. I mean, maybe it doesn't sound very intelligent at this point, but, so is it an ongoing process or is it something that you do at the very beginning, I mean you start deploying this. >> Yeah. >> And maybe as a service. >> Yep. >> Once in a year I say, okay, let's do it again and see if something change it. >> Sure. >> So one spot, one single.. >> Yeah, would you recommend somebody performance test just once a year? Like, so that's my thing is, at previous roles, my role was to do performance test every single release, and that was at a minimum once a week and if your thing did not get faster, you had to have an executive exception to get it into production and that's the space that we want to live in as well as part of your CICD process, like this should be continuous verification, every time you deploy, we want to make sure that we're recommending the perfect configuration for your application in the name space that you're deploying into. >> And I would be as bold as to say that we believe that we can be a part of adding, actually adding a step in the CICD process that's connected to optimization and that no application should be released, monitored, and sort of analyzed on an ongoing basis without optimization being a part of that. And again, not just from a cost perspective, but for cost and performance. >> Almost a couple of hundred vendors on this floor. You mentioned some of the big ones Datadog, et cetera, but what happens when one of the up and comings out of nowhere, completely new data structure, some imaginative way to click to telemetry data. >> Yeah. >> How do, how do you react to that? >> Yeah, to us it's zeros and ones. >> Yeah. >> And, we really are data agnostic from the standpoint of, we're fortunate enough from the design of our algorithm standpoint, it doesn't get caught up on data structure issues, as long as you can capture it and make it available through one of a series of inputs, one would be load or performance tests, could be telemetry, could be observability, if we have access to it. Honestly, the messier the better from time to time from a machine learning standpoint, it's pretty powerful to see. We've never had a deployment where we saved less than 30%, while also improving performance by at least 10%. But the typical results for us are 40 to 60% savings and 30 to 40% improvement in performance. >> And what happens if the application is, I mean, yes Kubernetes is the best thing of the world but sometimes we have to, external data sources or, we have to connect with external services anyway. >> Yeah. >> So, can you provide an indication also on this particular application, like, where the problem could be? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, and that's absolutely one of the things that we look at too, 'cause it's, especially when you talk about resource consumption it's never a flat line, right? Like depending on your application, depending on the workloads that you're running it varies from sometimes minute to minute, day to day, or it could be week to week even. And so, especially with some of the products that we have coming out with what we want to do, integrating heavily with the HPA and being able to handle some of those bumps and not necessarily bumps, but bursts and being able to do it in a way that's intelligent so that we can make sure that, like I said, it's the perfect configuration for the application regardless of the time of day that you're operating in or what your traffic patterns look like, or, what your disc looks like, right. Like 'cause with our low environment testing, any metric you throw at us, we can optimize for. >> So Matt and Patrick, thank you for stopping by. >> Yeah. >> Yes. >> We can go all day because day two is I think the biggest challenge right now, not just in Kubernetes but application re-platforming and transformation, very, very difficult. Most CTOs and EASs that I talked to, this is the challenge space. From Valencia, Spain, I'm Keith Townsend, along with my host Enrico Signoretti and you're watching "theCube" the leader in high-tech coverage. (whimsical music)

>>The cube presents, Coon and cloud native con Europe 22, brought to you by the cloud native computing foundation. >>Welcome to Melissa Spain. And we're at cuon cloud native con Europe, 2022. I'm Keith Townsend. And my co-host en Rico senior Etti en Rico's really proud of me. I've called him en Rico and said IK, every session, senior it analyst giga, O we're talking to fantastic builders at Cuban cloud native con about the projects and the efforts en Rico up to this point, it's been all about provisioning insecurity. What, what conversation have we been missing? >>Well, I mean, I, I think, I think that, uh, uh, we passed the point of having the conversation of deployment of provisioning. You know, everybody's very skilled, actually everything is done at day two. They are discovering that, well, there is a security problem. There is an observability problem. And in fact, we are meeting with a lot of people and there are a lot of conversation with people really needing to understand what is happening. I mean, in their classroom, what, why it is happening and all the, the questions that come with it. I mean, and, uh, the more I talk with, uh, people in the, in the show floor here, or even in the, you know, in the various sessions is about, you know, we are growing, the, our clusters are becoming bigger and bigger. Uh, applications are becoming, you know, bigger as well. So we need to know, understand better what is happening. It's not only, you know, about cost it's about everything at the >>End. So I think that's a great set up for our guests, max, Provo, founder, and CEO of storm for forge and Patrick Britton, Bergstrom, Brookstone. Yeah, I spelled it right. I didn't say it right. Berg storm CTO. We're at Q con cloud native con we're projects are discussed, built and storm forge. I I've heard the pitch before, so forgive me. And I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm kind of torn. I have service mesh. What do I need more like, what problem is storm for solving? >>You wanna take it? >>Sure, absolutely. So it it's interesting because, uh, my background is in the enterprise, right? I was an executive at United health group. Um, before that I worked at best buy. Um, and one of the issues that we always had was, especially as you migrate to the cloud, it seems like the CPU dial or the memory dial is your reliability dial. So it's like, oh, I just turned that all the way to the right and everything's hunky Dory. Right. Uh, but then we run into the issue like you and I were just talking about where it gets very, very expensive, very quickly. Uh, and so my first conversations with Matt and the storm forge group, and they were telling me about the product and, and what we're dealing with. I said, that is the problem statement that I have always struggled with. And I wish this existed 10 years ago when I was dealing with EC two costs, right? And now with Kubernetes, it's the same thing. It's so easy to provision. So realistically, what it is is we take your raw telemetry data and we essentially monitor the performance of your application. And then we can tell you using our machine learning algorithms, the exact configuration that you should be using for your application to achieve the results that you're looking for without over provisioning. So we reduce your consumption of CPU of memory and production, which ultimately nine times outta 10, actually I would say 10 out of 10 reduces your cost significantly without sacrificing reliability. >>So can your solution also help to optimize the application in the long run? Because yes, of course, yep. You know, the lowing fluid is, you know, optimize the deployment. Yeah. But actually the long term is optimizing the application. Yes. Which is the real problem. >>Yep. So we actually, um, we're fine with the, the former of what you just said, but we exist to do the latter. And so we're squarely and completely focused at the application layer. Um, we are, uh, as long as you can track or understand the metrics you care about for your application, uh, we can optimize against it. Um, we love that we don't know your application. We don't know what the SLA and SLO requirements are for your app. You do. And so in, in our world, it's about empowering the developer into the process, not automating them out of it. And I think sometimes AI and machine learning sort of gets a bad wrap from that standpoint. And so, uh, we've at this point, the company's been around, you know, since 2016, uh, kind of from the very early days of Kubernetes, we've always been, you know, squarely focused on Kubernetes using our core machine learning, uh, engine to optimize metrics at the application layer, uh, that people care about and, and need to need to go after. And the truth of the matter is today. And over time, you know, setting a cluster up on Kubernetes has largely been solved. Um, and yet the promise of, of Kubernetes around portability and flexibility, uh, downstream when you operationalize the complexity, smacks you in the face. And, uh, and that's where, where storm forge comes in. And so we're a vertical, you know, kind of vertically oriented solution. Um, that's, that's absolutely focused on solving that problem. >>Well, I don't want to play, actually. I want to play the, uh, devils advocate here and, you know, >>You wouldn't be a good analyst if you didn't. >>So the, the problem is when you talk with clients, users, they, there are many of them still working with Java with, you know, something that is really tough. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, I mean, we loved all of us loved Java. Yeah, absolutely. Maybe 20 years ago. Yeah. But not anymore, but still they have developers. They are porting applications, microservices. Yes. But not very optimized, etcetera. C cetera. So it's becoming tough. So how you can interact with these kind of yeah. Old hybrid or anyway, not well in generic applications. >>Yeah. We, we do that today. We actually, part of our platform is we offer performance testing in a lower environment and stage. And we like Matt was saying, we can use any metric that you care about and we can work with any configuration for that application. So the perfect example is Java, you know, you have to worry about your heap size, your garbage collection tuning. Um, and one of the things that really struck, struck me very early on about the storm forage product is because it is true machine learning. You remove the human bias from that. So like a lot of what I did in the past, especially around SRE and, and performance tuning, we were only as good as our humans were because of what they knew. And so we were, we kind of got stuck in these paths of making the same configuration adjustments, making the same changes to the application, hoping for different results. But then when you apply machine learning capability to that, the machine will recommend things you never would've dreamed of. And you get amazing results out of >>That. So both me and an Rico have been doing this for a long time. Like I have battled to my last breath, the, the argument when it's a bare metal or a VM. Yeah. Look, I cannot give you any more memory. Yeah. And the, the argument going all the way up to the CIO and the CIO basically saying, you know what, Keith you're cheap, my developer resources expensive, my bigger box. Yep. Uh, buying a bigger box in the cloud to your point is no longer a option because it's just expensive. Talk to me about the carrot or the stick as developers are realizing that they have to be more responsible. Where's the culture change coming from? So is it, that is that if it, is it the shift in responsibility? >>I think the center of the bullseye for us is within those sets of decisions, not in a static way, but in an ongoing way, especially, um, especially as the development of applications becomes more and more rapid. And the management of them, our, our charge and our belief wholeheartedly is that you shouldn't have to choose, you should not have to choose between costs or performance. You should not have to choose where your, you know, your applications live, uh, in a public private or, or hybrid cloud environment. And so we want to empower people to be able to sit in the middle of all of that chaos and for those trade-offs and those difficult interactions to no, no longer be a thing. You know, we're at, we're at a place now where we've done, you know, hundreds of deployments and never once have we met a developer who said, I'm really excited to get outta bed and come to work every day and manually tune my application. <laugh> One side, secondly, we've never met, uh, you know, uh, a manager or someone with budget that said, uh, please don't, you know, increase the value of my investment that I've made to lift and shift us over mm-hmm <affirmative>, you know, to the cloud or to Kubernetes or, or some combination of both. And so what we're seeing is the converging of these groups, um, at, you know, their happy place is the lack of needing to be able to, uh, make those trade offs. And that's been exciting for us. So, >>You know, I'm listening and looks like that your solution is right in the middle in application per performance management, observability. Yeah. And, uh, and monitoring. So it's a little bit of all of this. >>So we, we, we, we want to be, you know, the Intel inside of all of that, mm-hmm, <affirmative>, we don't, you know, we often get lumped into one of those categories. It used to be APM a lot. We sometimes get a, are you observability or, and we're really not any of those things in and of themselves, but we, instead of invested in deep integrations and partnerships with a lot of those, uh, with a lot of that tooling, cuz in a lot of ways, the, the tool chain is hardening, uh, in a cloud native and, and Kubernetes world. And so, you know, integrating in intelligently staying focused and great at what we solve for, but then seamlessly partnering and not requiring switching for, for our users who have already invested likely in a APM or observability. >>So to go a little bit deeper. Sure. What does it mean integration? I mean, do you provide data to this, you know, other applications in, in the environment or are they supporting you in the work that you >>Yeah, we're, we're a data consumer for the most part. Um, in fact, one of our big taglines is take your observability and turn it into actionability, right? Like how do you take the it's one thing to collect all of the data, but then how do you know what to do with it? Right. So to Matt's point, um, we integrate with folks like Datadog. Um, we integrate with Prometheus today. So we want to collect that telemetry data and then do something useful with it for you. >>But, but also we want Datadog customers. For example, we have a very close partnership with, with Datadog, so that in your existing data dog dashboard, now you have yeah. This, the storm for capability showing up in the same location. Yep. And so you don't have to switch out. >>So I was just gonna ask, is it a push pull? What is the developer experience? When you say you provide developer, this resolve ML, uh, learnings about performance mm-hmm <affirmative> how do they receive it? Like what, yeah, what's the, what's the, what's the developer experience >>They can receive it. So we have our own, we used to for a while we were CLI only like any good developer tool. Right. Uh, and you know, we have our own UI. And so it is a push in that, in, in a lot of cases where I can come to one spot, um, I've got my applications and every time I'm going to release or plan for a release or I have released, and I want to take, pull in, uh, observability data from a production standpoint, I can visualize all of that within the storm for UI and platform, make decisions. We allow you to, to set your, you know, kind of comfort level of automation that you're, you're okay with. You can be completely set and forget, or you can be somewhere along that spectrum. And you can say, as long as it's within, you know, these thresholds, go ahead and release the application or go ahead and apply the configuration. Um, but we also allow you to experience, uh, the same, a lot of the same functionality right now, you know, in Grafana in Datadog, uh, and a bunch of others that are coming. >>So I've talked to Tim Crawford who talks to a lot of CIOs and he's saying one of the biggest challenges, or if not, one of the biggest challenges CIOs are facing are resource constraints. Yeah. They cannot find the developers to begin with to get this feedback. How are you hoping to address this biggest pain point for CIOs? Yeah. >>Development? >>Just take that one. Yeah, absolutely. That's um, so like my background, like I said, at United health group, right. It's not always just about cost savings. In fact, um, the way that I look about at some of these tech challenges, especially when we talk about scalability, there's kind of three pillars that I consider, right? There's the tech scalability, how am I solving those challenges? There's the financial piece, cuz you can only throw money at a problem for so long. And it's the same thing with the human piece. I can only find so many bodies and right now that pool is very small. And so we are absolutely squarely in that footprint of, we enable your team to focus on the things that they matter, not manual tuning like Matt said. And then there are other resource constraints that I think that a lot of folks don't talk about too. >>Like we were, you were talking about private cloud for instance. And so having a physical data center, um, I've worked with physical data centers that companies I've worked for have owned where it is literally full wall to wall. You can't rack any more servers in it. And so their biggest option is, well, I could spend 1.2 billion to build a new one if I wanted to. Or if you had a capability to truly optimize your compute to what you needed and free up 30% of your capacity of that data center. So you can deploy additional name spaces into your cluster. Like that's a huge opportunity. >>So either out of question, I mean, may, maybe it, it doesn't sound very intelligent at this point, but so is it an ongoing process or is it something that you do at the very beginning mean you start deploying this. Yeah. And maybe as a service. Yep. Once in a year I say, okay, let's do it again and see if something changes. Sure. So one spot 1, 1, 1 single, you know? >>Yeah. Um, would you recommend somebody performance tests just once a year? >>Like, so that's my thing is, uh, previous at previous roles I had, uh, my role was you performance test, every single release. And that was at a minimum once a week. And if your thing did not get faster, you had to have an executive exception to get it into production. And that's the space that we wanna live in as well as part of your C I C D process. Like this should be continuous verification every time you deploy, we wanna make sure that we're recommending the perfect configuration for your application in the name space that you're deploying >>Into. And I would be as bold as to say that we believe that we can be a part of adding, actually adding a step in the C I C D process that's connected to optimization and that no application should be released monitored and sort of, uh, analyzed on an ongoing basis without optimization being a part of that. And again, not just from a cost perspective, yeah. Cost end performance, >>Almost a couple of hundred vendors on this floor. You know, you mentioned some of the big ones, data, dog, et cetera. But what happens when one of the up and comings out of nowhere, completely new data structure, some imaginable way to click to elementry data. Yeah. How do, how do you react to that? >>Yeah. To us it's zeros and ones. Yeah. Uh, and you know, we're, we're, we're really, we really are data agnostic from the standpoint of, um, we're not, we we're fortunate enough to, from the design of our algorithm standpoint, it doesn't get caught up on data structure issues. Um, you know, as long as you can capture it and make it available, uh, through, you know, one of a series of inputs, what one, one would be load or performance tests, uh, could be telemetry, could be observability if we have access to it. Um, honestly the messier, the, the better from time to time, uh, from a machine learning standpoint, um, it, it, it's pretty powerful to see we've, we've never had a deployment where we, uh, where we saved less than 30% while also improving performance by at least 10%. But the typical results for us are 40 to 60% savings and, you know, 30 to 40% improvement in performance. >>And what happens if the application is, I, I mean, yes, Kubernetes is the best thing of the world, but sometimes we have to, you know, external data sources or, or, you know, we have to connect with external services anyway. Mm-hmm <affirmative> yeah. So can you, you know, uh, can you provide an indication also on, on, on this particular application, like, you know, where the problem could >>Be? Yeah, yeah. And that, that's absolutely one of the things that we look at too, cuz it's um, especially when you talk about resource consumption, it's never a flat line, right? Like depending on your application, depending on the workloads that you're running, um, it varies from sometimes minute to minute, day to day, or it could be week to week even. Um, and so especially with some of the products that we have coming out with what we want to do, you know, partnering with, uh, you know, integrating heavily with the HPA and being able to handle some of those bumps and not necessarily bumps, but bursts and being able to do it in a way that's intelligent so that we can make sure that, like I said, it's the perfect configuration for the application regardless of the time of day that you're operating in or what your traffic patterns look like. Um, or you know, what your disc looks like, right? Like cuz with our, our low environment testing, any metric you throw at us, we can, we can optimize for. >>So Madden Patrick, thank you for stopping by. Yeah. Yes. We can go all day. Because day two is I think the biggest challenge right now. Yeah. Not just in Kubernetes, but application replatforming and re and transformation. Very, very difficult. Most CTOs and S that I talked to, this is the challenge space from Valencia Spain. I'm Keith Townsend, along with my host en Rico senior. And you're watching the queue, the leader in high tech coverage.

(digital pulsing music) >> We're back at VeeamON 2022. My name is Dave Vellante. I'm here with my co-host David Nicholson. I've got another mass boy coming on. Patrick Osborne is the vice president of the storage business unit at HPE. Good to see you again, my friend. It's been a long time. >> It's been way too long, thank you very much for having me. >> I can't even remember the last time we saw each other. It might have been in our studios in the East Coast. Well, it's good to be here with you. Lots have been going on, of course, we've been following from afar, but give us the update, what's new with HPE? We've done some stuff on GreenLake, we've covered that pretty extensively and looks like you got some momentum there. >> Quite a bit of momentum, both on the technology front and certainly the customer acquisition front. The message is certainly resonating with our customers. GreenLake is, that's the transformation that's fueling the future of Hewlett Packard Enterprise. So the momentum is great on the technology side. We're at well over 50 services that we're providing on the GreenLake platform. Everything from solutions and workloads to compute, networking and storage. So it's been really fantastic to see the platform and being able to really delight the customers and then the momentum on the sales and the customer acquisition side, the customers are voting with their dollars, so they're very happy with the platform, certainly from an operational perspective and a financial consumption perspective and so our target goal, which we've said a bunch of times is we want to be the hyperscaler on on-prem. We want to provide that customer experience to the folks that are investing in the platform. It's going really well. >> I'll ask you a question, as a former analyst, it could be obnoxious and so forth, so I'll be obnoxious for a minute. I wrote a piece in 2010 called At Your Storage Service, saying the future of storage and infrastructure as a service, blah, blah, blah. Now, of course, you don't want to over-rotate when there's no market, there was no market for GreenLake in 2010. Do you feel like your timing was right on, a little bit late, little bit early? Looking back now, how do you feel about that? >> Well, it's funny you say that. On the timing side, we've seen iterations of this stops and start forever. >> That's true. Financial gimmicks. >> I started my career at Sun Microsystems. We talked about the big freaking Web-tone switch and a lot of the network is the computer. You saw storage networks, you've seen a lot, a ton of iterations in this category, and so, I think the timing's right right now. Obviously, the folks in the hyperscaler class have proved out that this is something that's working. I think for us, the big thing that's really resonating with the customers is they want the operational model and they want the consumption model that they're getting from that as a service experience, but they still are going to run a number of their workloads on-prem and that's the best place to do it for them economically and we've proved that out. So I think the time is here to have that bifurcated experience from operational and financial perspective and in the past, the technology wasn't there and the ability to deliver that for the customers in a manner that was useful wasn't there. So I think the timing's perfect right now to provide them. >> As you know, theCUBE has had a presence at HPE Discover. Previous, even HP Discover and same with Veeam. But we got a long history with HP/HPE. When Hewlett Packard split into two companies, we made the observation, Wow, this opens up a whole new ecosystem opportunity for HPE generally, in storage business specifically, especially in data protection and backup, and the Veeam relationship, the ink wasn't dry and all of a sudden you guys were partnering, throwing joint activities, and so talk about how that relationship has evolved. >> From my perspective, we've always been a big partnering company, both on the route to market side, so our distributors and partners, and we work with them in big channel business. And then on the software partnership side, that's always evolving and growing. We're a very open ecosystem and we like to provide choice for our customers and I think, at the end of the day, we've got a lot of things that we work on jointly, so we have a great value prop. First phase of that relationship was partnering, we've got a full boat of product integrations that we do for customers. The second was a lot of special sauce that we do for our customers for co-integration and co-development. We had a huge session today with Rick Vanover and Frederico on our team here to talk about ransomware. We have big customers suffering from this plague right now and we've done a lot together on the engineering side to provide a very, very well-engineered, well thought out process to help avoid some of these things. And so that wave, too, of how do we do a ton of co-innovation together to really delight our customers and help them run their businesses, and I think the evolution of where we're going now, we have a lot of things that are very similar, strategically, in terms of, we all talk about data services and outcomes for our customers. So at the end of the day, when we think about GreenLake, like our virtual machine backup as a service or disaster recovery, it's all about what workloads are you running, what are the most important ones, where do you need help protecting that data? And essentially, how can we provide that outcome to you and you pay it as an outcome. And so we have a lot of things that we're working on together in that space. >> Let's take a little bit of a closer look at that. First of all, I'm from California, so I'm having a really hard time understanding what either of you were saying. Your accents are so thick. >> We could talk in Boston. >> Your accents are so thick. (Dave laughing) I could barely, but I know I heard you say something about Veaam at one point. Take a closer look at that. What does that look like from a ransomware perspective in terms of this concept of air gaping or immutable, immutable volumes and just as an aside, it seems like Veeam is a perfect partnership for you since customers obviously are going to be in hybrid mode for a long time and Veeam overlays that nicely. But what does it look like specifically? Immutable, air gap, some of the things we've been hearing a lot about. >> I'm exec sponsor for a number of big HPE customers and I'll give you an example. One of our customers, they have their own cloud service for time management and essentially they're exploited and they're not able to provide their service. It has huge ripple effect, if you think about, on inability to do their service and then how that affects their customers and their customers' employees and all that. It's a disaster, no pun intended. And the thing is, we learn from that and we can put together a really good architectures and best practices. So we're talking today about 3-2-1-1, so having three copies of your data, two different types of media, having an offline copy, an offsite copy and an offline copy. And now we're thinking about all the things you need to do to mitigate against all the different ways that people are going to exploit you. We've seen it all. You have keys that are erased, primary storage that is compromised and encrypted, people that come in and delete your backup catalog, they delete your backups, they delete your snapshots. So they get it down to essentially, "I'm either going to have one set of data, it's encrypted, I'm going to make you pay for it," and 40 percent of the time they pay and they get the data back, 60 percent of the time they pay and they get maybe some of the data back. But for the most part, you're not getting your data back. The best thing that we can do for our customers that come with a very prescriptive set of T-shirt configuration sizes, standardization, best practices on how they can take this entire ecosystem together and make it really easy for the customers to implement. But I wouldn't say, it's never bulletproof, but essentially, do as much as you can to avoid having to pay that ransomware. >> So 3-2-1-1, three copies, meaning local. >> Patrick: Yeah. >> So you can do fast recovery if you need to. Two different types of media, so tape fits in here? Not necessarily flashing and spinning disks. Could it be tape? >> A lot of times we have customers that have almost four different types. So they are running their production on flash. We have Alletras with HPE networking and servers running specific workloads, high performance. We have secondary storage on-prem for fast recovery and then we have some form of offsite and offline. Offsite could be object storage in the cloud and then offline would be an actual tape backup. The tape is out of the tape library in a vault so no one can actually access it through the network and so it's a physical copy that's offline. So you always have something to restore. >> Patrick, where's the momentum today, specifically, we're at VeeamON, but with regard to the Veeam partnership, is it security and ransomware, which is a new thing for this world. The last two years, it's really come to the top. Is it cloud migration? Is it data services and data management? Where's the momentum, all of the above, but maybe you could help us parse that. >> What we're seeing here at Hewlett Packard Enterprise, especially through GreenLake, is just an overall focus on data services. So what we're doing is we've got great platforms, we always had. HPE is known as an engineering company. We have fantastic products and solutions that customers love. What we're doing right now is taking, essentially, a lot of the beauty of those products and elevating them into an operational experience in the cloud, so you have a set of platforms that you want to run, you have machine critical platform, business critical, secondary storage, archival, data analytics and I want to be able to manage those from the cloud. So fleet management, HCI management, protocol management, block service, what have you, and then I want a set of abstracted data services that are on top of it and that's essentially things like disaster recovery, backup, data immutability, data vision, understanding what kind of data you have, and so we'll be able to provide those services that are essentially abstracted from the platforms themselves that run across multiple types of platforms. We can charge them on outcome based. They're based on consumption, so you think about something like DR, you have a small set of VMs that you want to protect with a very tight RPO, you can pay for those 100 VMs that are the most important that you have. So for us driving that operational experience and then the cloud data service experience into GreenLake gives customers a really, gives them a cloud experience. >> So have you heard the term super cloud? >> Patrick: Yeah. (chuckles) >> Have you? >> Patrick: Absolutely. >> It's term that we kind of coined, but I want to ask you about it specifically, in terms of how it fits into your strategy. So the idea is, and you kind of just described it, I think, whether your data is on-prem, it's in the cloud, multiple clouds, we'll talk about the edge later, but you're hiding the underlying complexities of the cloud's APIs and primitives, you're taking care of that for your customers, irrespective of physical location. It's the common experience across all those platforms. Is that a reasonable vision, maybe, even from a technical standpoint, is it part of HPE strategy and what does it take to actually do that, 'cause it sounds nice, but it's probably pretty intense? >> So the proof's in the pudding for us. We have a number of platforms that are providing, whether it's compute or networking or storage, running those workloads that they plum up into the cloud, they have an operational experience in the cloud and now they have data services that are running in the cloud for us in GreenLake. So it's a reality. We have a number of platforms that support that. We're going to have a set of big announcements coming up at HPE Discover. So we led with Alletra and we have a block service, we have VM backup as a service and DR On top of that. That's something that we're providing today. GreenLake has over, I think, it's actually over 60 services right now that we're providing in the GreenLake platform itself. Everything from security, single sign on, customer IDs, everything, so it's real. We have the proof point for it. >> So, GreenLake is essentially, I've said it, it's the HPE cloud. Is that a fair statement? >> A hundred percent. >> You're redefining cloud. And one of the hallmarks of cloud is ecosystem. Roughly, and I want to talk more about you got to grow that ecosystem to be successful in cloud, no question about it. And HPE's got the chops to do that. What percent of those services are HPE versus ecosystem partners and how do you see that evolving over time? >> We have a good number of services that are based on HPE, our tried and true intellectual property. >> You got good tech. >> Absolutely, so a number of that. And then we have partners in GreenLake today. We have a pretty big ecosystem and it's evolving, too. So we have customers and partners that are focused, our customers want our focus on data services. We have a number of opportunities and partnerships around data analytics. As you know, that's a really dynamic space. A lot of folks providing support on open source, analytics and that's a fast moving ecosystem, so we want to support that. We've seen a lot of interest in security. Being able to bring in security companies that are focused on data security. Data analytics to understand what's in your data from a customer perspective, how to secure that. So we have a pretty big ecosystem there. Just like our path at HPE, we've always had a really strong partnership with tons of software companies and we're going to continue to do that with GreenLake. >> You guys have been partner-friendly, I'll give you that. I'm going to ask Antonio this at Discover in a couple of weeks, but I want to ask you, when you think about, again, to go back to AWS as the prototypical cloud, you look at a Snowflake and a Redshift. The Redshift guys probably hate Snowflake, but the EC2 guys love them, sell a lot of compute. Now you as a business unit manager, do you ever see the day where you're side by side with one of your competitors? I'm guessing Antonio would say absolutely. Culturally, how does that play inside of HPE? I'm testing your partner-friendliness. How would you- >> Who will you- >> How do you think about that? >> At the end of the day, for us, the opportunity for us is to delight our customers. So we've always talked about customer choice and how to provide that best outcome. I think the big thing for us is that, from a cost perspective, we've seen a lot of customers coming back to HPE repatriation, from a repatriation perspective for a certain class of workloads. From my perspective, we're providing the best infrastructure and the best operational services at the best price at scale for these costumers. >> Really? It definitely, culturally, HPE has to, I think you would agree, it has to open up. You might not, you're going to go compete, based on the merit- >> Absolutely. >> of your product and technology. The repatriation thing is interesting. 'Cause I've always been a repatriation skeptic. Are you actually starting to see that in a meaningful way? Do you think you'll see it in the macro numbers? I mean, cloud doesn't seem to be slowing down, the public cloud growth, I mean, the 35, 40 percent a year. >> We're seeing it in our numbers. We're seeing it in the new logo and existing customer acquisition within GreenLake. So it's real for us. >> And they're telling you? Pure cost? >> Cost. >> So it's that's simple. >> Cost. >> So, they get the cloud bill, you do, too. I'd get the email from my CFO, "Why the cloud bill so high this month?" Part of that is it's consumption-based and it's not predictable. >> And also, too, one of the things that you said around unlocking a lot of the customer's ability from a resourcing perspective, so if we can take care of all the stuff underneath, the under cloud for the customer, the platform, so the stores, the serving, the networking, the automation, the provisioning, the health. As you guys know, we have hundreds of thousands of customers on the Aruba platform. We've got hundreds of thousands of customers calling home through InfoSight. So we can provide a very rich set of analytics, automated environment, automated health checking, and a very good experience that's going to help them move away from managing boxes to doing operational services with GreenLake. >> We talk about repatriation often. There was a time when I think a lot of us would've agreed that no one who was born in the cloud will ever do anything other than grow in the cloud. Are you seeing organizations that were born in the cloud realizing, "Hey, we know what our 80 percent steady state is and we've modeled this. Why rent it when we can own it? Or why rent it here when we can have it as operational cost there?" Are you seeing those? >> We're seeing some of that. We're certainly seeing folks that have a big part of their native or their digital business. It's a cost factor and so I think, one of the other areas, too, that we're seeing is there's a big transformation going on for our partners as well, too, on the sell-through side. So you're starting to see more niche SaaS offerings. You're starting to see more vertically focused offerings from our service provider partners or MSPs. So it's not just in either-or type of situation. You're starting to see now some really, really specific things going on in either verticals, customer segmentation, specific SaaS or data services and for us, it's a really good ecosystem, because we work with our SP partners, our MSP partners, they use our tech, they use our services, they provide services to our joint customers. For example, I know you guys have talked to iland here in the past. It's a great example for us for customers that are looking for DR as a service, backup as a service hosting, so it's a nice triangle for us to be able to please those customers. >> They're coming on to tomorrow. They're on 11/11. I think you're right on. The one, I think, obvious place where this repatriation could happen, it's the Sarah Wong and Martin Casano scenario where a SaaS companies cost a good sold become dominated by cloud costs. And they say, "Okay, well, maybe, I'm not going to build my own data centers. That's probably not going to happen, but I can go to Equinix and do a colo and I'm going to save a ton of dough, managing my own infrastructure with automation or outsourcing it." So Patrick, got to go. I could talk with you forever. Thank you so much for coming back in theCUBE. >> Always a pleasure. >> Go, Celts. How you feeling about the, we always talk sports here in VeeamON. How are you feeling about the Celts today? >> My original call today was Celtics in six, but we'll see what happens. >> Stephen, you like Celtics? Celtics six. >> Stephen: Celtics six. >> Even though tonight, they got a little- >> Stephen: Still believe, you got to believe. >> All right, I believe. >> It'd be better than the Miami's Mickey Mouse run there, in the bubble, a lot of astronauts attached to that. (Dave laughing) >> I love it. You got to believe here on theCUBE. All right, keep it right- >> I don't care. >> Keep it right there. You don't care, 'cause you're not from a sports town. Where are you in California? >> We have no sports. >> All right, keep it right there. This is theCUBE's coverage of VeeamON 2022. Dave Vellante for Dave Nicholson. We'll be right back. (digital music)

>> theCUBE presents Dell Technologies World, brought to you by Dell. >> Hey everyone. Happy afternoon. Welcome back to theCUBE. This is Lisa Martin with Dave Vallante. We are on day three of our coverage of Dell Technologies World live from Las Vegas with about 7,000- 8,000 people here. It's been a great two and a half days. Lots of people are still here. We're going to be talking more about Dell Services. I got a couple of guys from Dell Technologies joining us next. Please welcome Patrick Mooney, Senior Vice President of Services Product Management at Dell and Satish Iyer, Vice President of Emerging Services at Dell. Guys, welcome to the program. >> Thank you. Good evening. Great to be here to you. >> Happy to be here. >> So isn't it great to be back in person? >> So great. >> Those hallway conversations you just can't replicate it for video conferencing, right? >> Yeah. >> Priceless. >> It is priceless, I agree. Patrick, let's start with you. Talk to us about from a customer's perspective. What are some of the key services they've been looking for the last couple of years particularly, and how has Dell changed its strategic direction to deliver? >> Great question. Customers want outcomes and services are at the heart of outcomes. So when we look at customers transforming we're continually transforming and modernizing what we do and everything we're doing is centered around making it easy to buy, easy to consume and just centered around the customer. >> What are people looking for these days, Satish? I mean, what's the top three or four priorities. And we know cyber's up there. The cloud. One is when customers are consuming cloud, now there is more and more what we call as customers are looking for full stack solutions. So they start with giving me the best infrastructure on the platforms. Now they're saying, "I'm going to use those infrastructure to drive X, Y, and Z. "Now Mr. Dell, can you come and gimme those tags? "So I don't need to worry about anything "and I can actually consume it in the cloud like way." That's been massive for us. >> So, how do you guys respond to that? I mean, things in our little business things change so fast. And we can, but we're little. We can move fast. Customers are saying, okay, pandemic forced match to digital and now we got to figure it out. And now we got to modernize our HQ. How are you able to keep up? How are you changing your strategy as your customers pull you in different directions? What's going on inside the organization to enable that? >> Yeah. I think the key is that we meet customers where they are and help them plot out where they want to be. And then bring them along that journey. And we've really spent a lot of time developing four practices to help get there. One's around data and applications another around multi-cloud, another around workforce and another around security and resiliency. And no matter where they want to be, whether they want to do it themselves. They want us to help them do it or they want us to do it for them, we're there for them and we'll help them get where they want to be. >> Do you have like formal customer councils or how do you actually, especially the last couple years staying engaged with those customers? >> Absolutely. We're always talking to customers. It is critical to the model and we got a lot of ideas and customers have a lot of ideas and we want to vet those and talk through them. So no matter what point we're at in our product development cycle, we're always talking with customers, "Hey, do we hear you right? "Is this the value you're looking for?" And as we're developing it, can you help us test it? And so on. And we do that through regular conversations, field testing, customer insight councils, and it just feels so great to be having face to face conversations again as well. >> What is- >> Oh, go ahead. >> I was going to say, what are some of the things that you've heard face to face this week in terms of the direction, what Dell Services is delivering? >> Well, one big one for sure is that remote workforce is here to stay. And in our workforce pillar we spent a lot of time around how do we make it easy for customers to manage a remote workforce? It's a big challenge. So we've recently we announced here at Dell World, Lifecycle Hub Services where we it's a managed service where we're helping customers manage their entire device lifecycle around their PC. So imagine this you have a new hire joint or somebody leaves, how do you get 'em that PC? Have it ready? Let Dell take care of all the logistics, we'll we'll store it. We'll configure it. We'll send it to 'em we'll take the old machines back, we'll kit it for 'em anything that's needed and fully integrated it from the customer system into our system. So it's all automated. >> Okay. And all the patching, et cetera, >> Everything. Okay. So you got four pillars, data and apps multi-cloud, workforce and resiliency. What you just described, the automation, does IP and what's the IP portfolio look like? How does it map into those four pillars? >> Sure, you want to take that? >> Sure, so obviously when you look at growth areas and services, it's absolutely important for us to develop sustainable IP. If you look at one of the areas where we have invested and we are growing is cloud managed services platform. So Dell is unique in terms of managing our customer services. We actually do full lifecycle management of the customers. So we invested quite a bit of, I would say time and energy and engineering efforts to basically solve problems in engineered way. So the customer cloud managed services platform allows us to actually bring both, you talked about apex before to our other colleagues. So it allows us to both bring apex services to our customers and also allows us to bring non apex services in terms of fully managed to our customers. >> So multi-cloud must be a rich opportunity's probably almost infinite. There's a lot of gaps there for IP development. What are you seeing and hearing from customer with regard to those gaps? >> So one of the key areas when you talk about multi-cloud is we talk to customers about is the solution things we talked about. So we launched, we announced three solutions one we already launched. And the two of them will be announced is customers want that end-to-end outcome, right? 'Cause they are saying, well we are currently where we started today. We announced cyber security as a service. As you guys know, within the current geopolitical climate, cyber attacks are common, ransomware is common. So, and this is something which we are doing today to customers. What customers want is the simplicity of offering. They're like, you can help us with cyber security when something happens I have an insurance policy, so I can actually go I know where my data sets are. I can record from it, but can you streamline it for me? I don't want all the headaches. Can you make sure that it's easily consumable and Dell can take care of everything for me. And we are also investing on other LED solutions like machine learning, high performance compute. And we are also looking at vertical areas. So our customers, especially in telco, Edge and enterprise applications. So we are looking at those as a full stack offerings so that we can actually educate and take our customers on the journey on our MacCloud platforms. >> I going to talk about Dell Services as a facilitator of multi-cloud Chuck Whitton was on stage, He was here yesterday talking about multi-cloud is here by default. Well, Dell wants to change that to multi-cloud by design. How can Dell Services be a facilitator of that transformation that customers in telco or whatever industry have going from, We've got it by default to now it's actually by design, facilitating that? >> Yeah. I'll jump in and let you take it, we have a a robust consulting practice which can help you come in and understand where you're at and where you want to be and design that future. So that it's not, as you said by default, it's absolutely multi-cloud by design. Anything you want to add? >> Yeah. I mean, look again Dell has been doing multi-cloud for a long time. We just didn't call it multi-cloud. I would probably say 2014, 2015, Dell's been there. We know our customers have a choice. We want to operationalize. We want to help our customers run workloads wherever they want to run. Now, we have a term for it. We have a dedicated way of talking about it. And again, more automation more IP development, more software. And again, taking a lot of the people part away from services and driving more innovation, more IPs where we are going to be able to differentiate. >> So you're a large and pretty sophisticated services organization. We've talked about some of your IP. You now bring that to your customers. What are some of the adoption barriers that they have? How are you addressing those, in terms of taking your IP and your ideas? And you probably say, "Hey, we got this, you can apply this". What are they not ready for? That you sort of advise them, okay you got to do, these are some maybe, some out scope things that you haven't talked about or thought about. >> Yeah. I mean, I'll take one. And I know Patrick will probably touch on, I would say two big ones. I can think about the one is data. One is on security, right? I'll give you the data use case. So data has gravity, right? When customers think about, multi-cloud think about solution, think about these services. It's not easy to take petabytes and terabytes of data and shift all over the place. It's very, very expensive. So a lot of their cloud strategy really hinges on where the data is, and how they're going to optimize those data for the outcomes they want to decide. And that's something a lot of our customers initially don't think about it as we actually go and talk to them about this specific use case and application that actually becomes forefront of the discussion. >> Yeah. On the security front, customers are just overwhelmed with the number of options in a very fragmented, extremely important space. So we've tried to make that very easy for them with our managed detection and response services, bringing the best of the industry and Dell Services together to give them a one stop shop managed service, let us watch for you so that you can run your business. And when we detect something, we'll advise you and help you respond. >> What's the tooling like there. I mean, you have, do you have your preferred tooling? Are the customers saying, well we got to use this vendor or that vendor, how do you manage all that complex? >> Of course we have our preferred tooling and we partner greatly with secure works to do it as well as some other company, but that said what's important to us with the service is that a customer meets specific, they're green in five different categories. And if they're green in those categories, then we're good to help them. And if they don't know how to do that, then we'll come in and do a security assessment to help them get there. And just taking what's very complicated and making it easy. >> On the security front. We've been talking about the cyber skills gap, massive skills gap that's been around for years. How is Dell Services facilitator of organizations being able to close that gap? >> Sure. In a few ways, one, we can just do it for you, right? Two, if you want to do it yourself, we can supplement you with security residents to help you manage through the complexity and cross train while as part of your staff. And then three, we have our Dell Education Services where we can come in and train you as well. So lots of different options on how you want to do it. >> Yeah. >> No matter what you choose, we're here for you. (panelists laughing) >> That people option's important. I mean, people being the biggest threat factor that there is, right. >> Absolutely. >> For sure. >> That's probably one of the hardest ones to augment. >> Yeah. I mean, that's the reason why when you look at cyber security customers, want somebody else to manage it because you don't want the same folks making the same mistake on an insurance policy. So they're like Dell, you manage it for me. So I don't have the same actor is doing same things. So I have somebody managing my data but somebody managing my record option. So in case something goes wrong I know it's a different handset different people who are much more relaxed when things go back >> That's always nice to have somebody that's relaxed in a crisis. >> Absolutely. And I think I'll take that in my personal life too. Guys thank you for joining Dave and me talking about what's new with Dell Services the modernization that you're undergoing and how your customers are really helping to evolve this strategy. We appreciate your insight. >> Thank you, Lisa. >> Thank you so much for your time. Great seeing you. >> Right. Likewise for Dave Vallante, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE. This is day three of our coverage of Dell Technologies World, live from Las Vegas, stick around Dave and I will be right back with our next guest. (bright music)

>>Welcome to the cubes, continuing coverage of AWS reinvent 2021 find Lisa Martin and we are running one of the industry's most important and largest hybrid tech events with AWS in this ecosystem partners. This year, we have two live sets, two remote sites over 100 guests talking about the next decade in cloud innovation. And we're excited to be joined by Patrick Jeanne, the CTO of OutSystems Patrick. Welcome to the program. >>Thank you. I appreciate being one of those 100 guests, >>One of the 100, one of the elite, 100, we'll say it like that. Right? So, so OutSystems has some revolutionary news. You guys are saying, you know, what developer experience needs to change? Tell us more. >>It does. I mean, it needs to change. And I've been in the industry developing applications for too many years dimensions basically since I was 12 years old writing software and, you know, going over that time and thinking about it, doing the traditional software development route. So many applications that take too long was, you know, costly to build so much risk involved in it. Eventually it didn't meet all the requirements. And if you look at the investment we make in software, which is important, I mean, software is a, is a unique differentiator for, for businesses. That investment has such a high risk and a high cost, and that needs to change and it needs to change just because of the complexity that is in that process inherent in it that's. And that is what we are doing and OutSystems is tackling that problem. And, um, from a business standpoint, it must change. >>It must change that that is strong words there. So talk to me about what you're announcing, what, what were the gaps in the market customer feedback? Was it, or were there any catalysts from the pandemic going we've got to change this developer experience and this is the time >>For sure. I mean, if you think about from the pandemic and I mean, we were on a journey for digital transformation. We've been on this journey for a number of years and it really accelerated that the experiences that we have with each other, with you and me, we're not the same studio today. I mean, there's there reasons that we have used this experience remote, we have a technology that can do it, the pandemic accelerated that. And so, so much of the experiences we have are digital experiences. And if you think about it, there's a device in between us. There's going to be a device in between all the people viewing what we're looking at, that experience that, uh, that they will have with us will be basically surfaced through an application on that device. And the pandemic has really accelerated that. And that's an area that we play in, obviously for what's considered low code application development. >>And if you just think about application development in general, that's what powers all of these experiences. And going back to that, you know, statement about that, it needs to change if we need these experiences to be diverse, if we need these experiences to be meaningful, if we need them to make sure that when people engage, as far as what that device is, something that brings, you know, delight and pleasure to them, we need developers across the board. Investing in that today, there is a very constrained market for professional developers, but because of the inherent complexity in software development. And so if you think about how that's almost almost you're limiting access to the people who can create those experiences, that's not a good situation. There's about 25 million developers in the world that would consider themselves developers today, 7, 8, 9, 10 billion devices out there. Think of that disparity between those two numbers. >>And so we need a larger number of people to actually develop applications. So that experience can be much more diverse. We need to expose development to many more people. That is the problem today with software development is that it is complex. It is too specialized. It's too inherit as far as with failure when you get it together. And so either you shy away from that as an organization or as an individual to do development, or you go on these very long development as far as cycles to actually create these applications. What we do is we take the approach of let's make it very simple to get into, you know, some terms and call it citizen developer, low code, basically all they're saying is let's, let's reduce the risk of development. Let's go into a process where we make it accessible to more and more people. You can go through and develop applications with the lower risk. You can build change into that process and you can get value into end users as rapidly as possible. So that's, that is the value proposition. That is what needs to change >>Strong value proposition well said, Patrick, talking about reducing the complexity, uh, the risk as well. So, so go ahead and crack crack open what you guys are actually announcing today. >>Yeah, for sure. So with, we we've been doing this for many years, we have, um, software development, we have 14 million plus as far as end-users using applications that have been developed with the Al systems platform, what we're announcing is taking some of the great benefits that we have to what you'd consider as the first part of that low code process, where you have a, you have a developer that has an idea, and there's a canvas in front of you. You know, you're, you're an artist, right? But again, this is what you are as a developer. And so you go in and you create that application. We've been doing this for many years and it works really well. But thing that we're improving upon now is the ability to do that and scale that out to millions of end-users 10 millions of end-users. So if you think about that inherent speed of developing an application, using a platform like OutSystems, we're taking that same concept and rolling that into an internet scale application, hosting architecture. >>So any developer that uses our systems, basically like it would be comparable to a traditional development team that has application architects, cloud architects, security, engineers, database engineers, a whole team of very smart individuals that generally the, the biggest technology companies in the world can put together. Most companies can't do that. You don't have access to that type of that type of skillset. And so we're providing that with project Neo, which is what we're announcing today in our, um, at our user conference and customer conference, is this brand new as far as platform that allows you to build these applications at scale. And this is initially built on AWS using all the great AWS technologies. If you look at what AWS has done and provided to developers today, it's amazing. It is absolutely amazing. The amount of technologies that you can leverage. It's also daunting because as a traditional developer, you have to go in and choose, you know, what do you do? It's like, there's just massive cognitive load as far as upfront when you're going to design and application and what type of messaging what's at the data store. Well, how do I host my application? What type of network, you know, as far as security do I use, we're taking all that heavy lifting, all that undifferentiated, heavy lifting off of the developers, putting it into the project, Neo platform, allowing a single developer or a small group of developers to actually leverage that best in class architecture on AWS today. >>So when you're talking to developers, what are some of the things that you described as the unique differentiators of project Neo? It sounds like this was really apt and apt time for change, but when you're talking to those folks, what do you say? You know, 1, 2, 3, these are the things that make project Neo unique. >>Yeah. So you're the first is don't worry about the application architecture. Like I mentioned, don't when you go in that, the idea, the concept of that application and what it means to, to deliver some value, whether it's into a business or a hobby or whatever. I mean, however, you're developing application, you're doing it for a reason. You want that value to come out as quickly as possible. You want that experience. And so that first thing is you don't have to worry about the architecture anymore. So in the past, you know, you'd have to think about if it's a very large application, it's millions and millions of end-users. How do you structure that? How do you put it together? That concern is removed from you in that process? The other thing is we solve the problem of software disintegration. So with traditional development, when you develop an application and you get it into the hands of end, users get immediately starts to disintegrate. >>So there will be bugs that will appear. There will be, as far as, um, security flaws that will come up services that you use will become deprecated. We'll swap out cloud services, you know, AWS or Azure or Google, we'll swap out cloud services with different services behind the scenes version that we new versions of those that is software disintegration. As soon as you develop software today and all of these beautiful cloud services that you use and components, they often something will become outdated almost by the time you release it. A lot of times with software development projects, it literally is you start with some version or some component before you can get that out in a traditional mode. Something becomes outdated. We solve that issue. What I like to call software disintegration, we, as far as our systems, ensure we invest in that platform. And so when we need to change out those components, so services, those versions fix is for a security flaws, fixed bugs. >>We do that and it seamless. And so your application, you do not have to rewrite your application. You do not have to go through that process as a tradition, as a developer on our systems like you would, as your traditional developer, we solve that software disintegration issue. So it is it's, it's very empowering to developers to not have to worry about that. There are many, you look at the numbers today about how much is invested in innovation versus maintenance. You know, a lot of companies start out at 70% innovation, 30% as far as maintenance. And then over time that flips and you'll get to 30% of your time spent on innovations development, 70% maintenance, that burden we removed that burden. >>Those are some really powerful statements protect that you mean, I really liked the way that you described software disintegration. I've actually never heard that term before. And it kind of reminded me of, you know, when you buy a brand new car, you drive it off. The lot the value goes down right away, then before you even get things out. And on the consumer side, we know that as soon as we buy the newest iPhone, the next one's going to be out, or there's some part of it, that's going to be outdated in terms of technical debt. I was reading a stat that technical debt is expected to reach and costs businesses 5 trillion us dollars over the next 10 years. How does OutSystems helps customers address the challenges with technical debt and even reduce it? >>Yeah. If you think about the guy, the truest sense of technical debt, it's a, it's a decision that you make in the development process to basically, you know, load up the future with some work that you don't want to do right now. And so we're solving that issue where number one, we, you don't even have to make that decision. So you can go back to that concept of removing that cognitive load of, do I get the software out right now or do I get it out in the right way? And that's really what technical debt technical debt is saying. I need to get it out now. And there are some things I want to do that it'd be better if I did them now, but I'm going to go ahead and push that out into the future. You don't have to do that today with us. >>And so what happens with our systems? We invest in that platform, and this is hard. I mean, this is not an easy thing to do. This is why we have some of the best and brightest engineers focusing on this process at the heart of this, not to get too technical, but the heart of this is what we call the true change engine. But then, um, within our platform, we go through and we look at all of the changes that you need to make. So if you think of that concept of technical debt of like, oh, I want to get this into the hands of man users, but I don't want to invest in the time to do something right. It's always done right. As far as with the OutSystems platform. So we take that, we look at the intent of your change. So it's like a, it's like a process where you tell us the intent. >>When you, as a application developer, you're designing an application, you tell us the intent of the application is to look and feel. It could be some business processes can be some integrations. We determine what's the best way to do that. And then once again, from a software disintegration standpoint, we continue to invest in all the right ways to do that the best way possible. And so, I mean, we have customers that have written applications. That's 10, 15 years ago, they're still using our platform with those same applications they've added to them, but they actually have not rewritten those applications. And so if you think about the normal traditional development process, the technical debt incurred over that type of lifetime would be enormous with us. There's no technical debt. They're still using the same application. They have simply added capabilities to it. We invest in that platform. So they don't have to >>So big business outcomes there, obviously from a developer productivity perspective, but from the company wide perspective, the ability to eliminate technical debt, some significant opportunities there. Talk to me about the existing OutSystems customers. When are they going to be able to take advantage of this? What is the migration or upgrade path that they can take? >>Yeah. And so it's, it was very important to me and, and, uh, and the team, as far as our systems, to be able to integrate, to innovate as far as for customers, without disrupting customers. And we've probably all been through this path of great new technology is awesome. But then to actually utilize that technology when you're a current customer, it creates pain. And so we've invested heavily in making sure that the process is pain-free so you can use project Niamh. So we are announcing it as it was in public preview, as far as now, and then we will release it from GA as far as in the first quarter of next year. So over this timeframe, you'll be able to get in and try it out and all that continue to use your current version, which is OutSystems 11. So what we, what we affectionately call it 11, as far as Alice systems, Al systems, 11 version, and continued to use, and you can continue to use that today. >>Side-by-side and coexistence with the project, Neo and project Neo is a code name. So we will, we will have an official product name is for as at launch, but it's our it's. Our affectionate is kind of a unofficial mascot as Neo. So we call it project Neo bit of a fun thing, and you can use it side by side. And then in the future, you'll be able to migrate applications over, or you can just continue to coexist. I mean, we see a very long lifetime for OutSystems 11, it's a different platform, different technology behind the scenes project, Neos, Kubernetes base, Lennox containers. Based once again on the bill, we went in with the, just looked at it and said, rearchitect re-imagined, how would you do this? If you had the best and brightest, as far as engineers, architects, um, you know, we have, which we do, you know, very smart in those people. >>And we did that. And so we did that for our customers. And so Neo is that how systems 11 still a great choice. If you have applications on it, you can use it. And we have, we anticipate that customers will actually side by side, develop on both in which we have some customers in preview today. And that's the process that they have. They will develop on 11, they will develop on the Neo and they will continue to do that. And there's no, we, we are dedicated to making sure that there's no disruption and no pain in that process. And then when customers are ready to migrate over, if that's what they choose, we'll help them migrate over. >>You make it sound easy. And I was wondering if project Neo had anything to do with the new matrix movie, I just saw the trailer for it the other day. >>It was a happy coincidence. It is not easy. Let me, let me be clear. It is something we have been working on for three years and really this last year really kicked into high gear. And, um, you know, a lot of behind the scenes work, obviously for us, but once again, that's our value proposition. It's we do the hard work. So developers and customers don't have to do that hard work, uh, but no relations in the L I love, I do love the matrix movies. So it's a, it's a nice coincidence. >>It is a nice coincidence. Last question, Patrick, for you, you know, as we wrap up the calendar year 2021, we head into 20, 22. I think we're all very hopeful that 2022 will be a better year than the last two. What are some of the things that you see as absolutely critical for enterprises? What are they most concerned about right now? >>Yeah, I think it's look, I mean, it's, obviously it has been a crazy couple of years. And, um, and if you think about what enterprises want, I mean, they want to provide, uh, a great experiences for their customers, a great experience for their employees. Once again, digital transformation, we're where you don't even kind of talk about digital transformation more because we're in it. And I think that customers need to make sure that the experiences they provide these digital experiences are the best possible experiences. And these are differentiators. These are differentiators for employees is, are differentiators for customers. I believe that software is one of the big differentiators for businesses today and going forward, and that will continue to be so we're where businesses may be invested in supply chains and invested in certain types of technologies. Business will continue to invest in software because software is that differentiator. >>And if you look at where we fit, you can go, you can go buy, you know, some great satisfied where my software as a service off the shelf in the end, you're just like every other business you bought the same thing that everybody else has bought. You can go the traditional development route, where you invest a bunch of money. It's a high risk, takes a long time. And once again, you may not get what you want. We believe what is most important to businesses. Get that unique software that fits like a glove that is great for employees is great for their customers. And it is a unique differentiator for them. And I really see that in 2022, that's going to be big and, and going forward. They're the legs for that type of investment that companies make and their return on that is huge. >>I agree with you on that in terms of software as a differentiator. No, we're seeing every company become a software company in every industry these days to be first to survive in the last 20 months and now to be competitive, it's really kind of a must have. So Patrick, thank you for joining me on the program, talking about project Neo GA in quarter of calendar year 22 exciting stuff. We appreciate your feedback and your insights and congratulations on project Neil. Thanks, Lisa. Appreciate it for Patrick Jean I'm Lisa Martin, and you're watching the cubes continuous coverage of re-invent 2021.

(Upbeat intro music) >> Welcome to theCUBE's continuing coverage of AWS re:Invent 2021. I'm Lisa Martin and we are running one of the industry's most important and largest hybrid tech events with AWS in this ecosystem partners this year. We have two live sets, two remote sets over 100 guests talking about the next decade in cloud innovation. And we're excited to be joined by Patrick Jean the CTO of OutSystems, Patrick welcome to the program. >> Thank you, I appreciate being one of those 100 guests. >> One of the 100, one of the elite 100, we'll say it like that, right? >> Yes. >> So OutSystems has some revolutionary news. You guys are saying, you know what, developer experience needs to change, tell us more. >> It does I mean, it needs to change. And I've been in the industry developing applications for too many years to mention, basically since I was 12 years old writing software and going over that time and thinking about it, doing the traditional software development route. So many applications that take too long was costly to build, so much risk involved in it. Eventually it didn't meet all the requirements. And if you look at the investment we make in software, which is important, I mean, software is a unique differentiator for businesses. That investment has such a high-risk and a high cost and that needs to change. And it needs to change just because of the complexity that is in that process inherent in it. That's and that is what we are doing in OutSystems is tackling that problem. And from a business standpoint, it must change. >> It must change that is strong words there. So talk to me about what you're announcing what were the gaps in the market, customer feedback, were there any catalysts from the pandemic going we've got to change this developer experience and this is the time. >> For sure. I mean, if you think about from the pandemic and I mean, we were on a journey for digital transformation. We've been on this journey for a number of years the pandemic really accelerated that the experiences that we have with each other, you and me are not in the same studio today. I mean, there reasons that we use this experience remotely. We have a technology that can do it. The pandemic accelerated that. And so, so much of the experiences we have are digital experiences. And if you think about it, there's a device in between us. There's going to be a device in between all the people viewing what we're looking at. That experience that they will have with us will be basically surfaced through an application on that device. And the pandemic has really accelerated that. And that's an area that we play in, obviously for what's considered low-code application development. And if you just think about application development in general, that's what powers all of these experiences. And going back to that statement about that it needs to change. If we need these experiences to be diverse, if we need these experiences to be meaningful, if we need them to make sure that when people engage as far as what that device is something that brings, delight and pleasure to them. We need developers across the board investing in that. Today there is a very constrained market for professional developers because of the inherent complexity in software development. And so if you think about how that's almost, almost here limiting access to the people who can create those experiences, that's not a good situation. There's about 25 million developers in the world that would consider themselves developers today, seven, eight, nine, 10 billion devices out there. Think of that disparity between those two numbers. And so we need a larger number of people to actually develop applications so that experience can be much more diverse. We need to expose development to many more people. That is the problem today with software development is that it is complex, it is too specialized. It's too inherent as far with failure when you get it together. And so either you shy away from that as an organization or as an individual. To do development are you going on these very long development as far as cycles to actually create these applications? What we do is we take the approach of let's make it very simple to get into. Sometimes we call it citizen developer, low-code, basically all they're saying is let's reduce the risk of development. Let's go into a process where we make it accessible to more and more people. You can go through and develop applications with the lower risk. You can build change into that process. You can get value into end users as rapidly as possible. So that is the value proposition, that is what needs to change. >> Strong value proposition well said, Patrick. Talking about reducing the complexity, the risk as well. So go ahead and crack open what you guys are actually announcing today. >> Yeah, for sure. So we've been doing this for many years. We have software development, we have 14 million plus as far as end-users using applications that have been developed with the Allo systems platform. What we're announcing is taking some of the great benefits that we have to what you'd consider as the first part of that low-code process. Where you have a developer that has an idea, and there's a canvas in front of you. You're an artist, right, with a canvas that's what you are as a developer. And so you go in and you create that application. We've been doing this for many years and it worked really well. The thing that we're improving upon now is the ability to do that and scale that out to millions of end-users, 10 millions of end-users. So if you think about that inherent speed of developing an application, using a platform like OutSystems, we're taking that same concept and rolling that into an internet scale application, hosting architecture. So any developer that uses OutSystems, basically like it would be comparable to a traditional development team that has application architects, cloud architects, security engineers, database engineers, a whole team of very smart individuals that generally the biggest technology companies in the world can put together. Most companies can't do that, you don't have access to that type of skillset. And so we're providing that with Project Neo, which is what we're announcing today in our, at our user conference and customer conference. Is this brand new as far as platform that allows you to build these applications at scale. And this is initially built on AWS using all the great AWS technologies. If you look at what AWS has done and provided to developers today, it's amazing. It is absolutely amazing. The amount of technologies that you can leverage. It's also daunting because as a traditional developer, you have to go in and choose what do you do? It's like, there's just massive cognitive load. As far as upfront when you go in to design an application. What's up in messaging, what's up at data store, well, how do I host my application? What type of network as far as security do I use? We're taking all that heavy lifting, all that undifferentiated heavy lifting off of the developers, putting it into the Project Neo platform. Allowing a single developer or a small group of developers to actually leverage that best in class architecture on AWS today. >> So when you're talking to developers, what are some of the things that you describe as the unique differentiators of Project Neo? It sounds like this was really apt and apt time for change. But when you're talking to those folks, what do you say you know, one, two three, these are the things that make Project Neo unique. >> Yeah, so the first is don't worry about the application architecture. Like I mentioned when you go in, the idea, the concept of that application and what it means to deliver some value, whether it's into a business or a hobby or whatever. I mean, however you're developing application, you're doing it for a reason. You want that value to come out as quick as possible. You want that experience. And so that first thing is, you don't have to worry about the architecture anymore. So in the past you'd have to think about if it's a very large application, it's millions and millions of end-users. How do you structure that? How do you put it together? That concern is removed from you in that process. The other thing is we solve the problem of software disintegration. So with traditional development, when you develop an application and you get it into the hands of end users it immediately starts to disintegrate. So there will be bugs that will appear. There will be as far as security flaws that will come up services that you use will become deprecated. We'll swap out cloud services by AWS or Azure or Google. swap out cloud services with different services behind the scenes. Version, there'll be new versions of those that is software disintegration. As soon as you develop software today and all of these beautiful cloud services that you use and components. Something will become outdated almost by the time you release it. A lot of times with software development projects, it literally is you start with some version or some component before you can get that out in a traditional mode, something becomes outdated. We solved that issue. What I like to call software disintegration. We, as far as OutSystems, ensure we invest in that platform. And so when we may need to change out those components, those services, those versions fix is for security flaws, fixed bugs, we do that and it's seamless. And so your application, you do not have to rewrite your application. You do not have to go through that process as a tradition, as a developer on OutSystems like you would, as your traditional developer. We solve that software disintegration issue. So it's very empowering to developers to not have to worry about that. There are many, you look at the numbers today about how much is invested in innovation versus maintenance. A lot of companies start out at 70% innovation, 30% as far as maintenance, and then overtime that flips. And you'll get to 30% of your time spent on innovations development, 70% maintenance, that burden, we remove that burden. >> Those were some really powerful statements Patrick that you made and I really liked the way that you described software disintegration. I've actually never heard that term before. And it kind of reminded me of when you buy a brand new car, you drive it off the lot, the value goes down right away then before you even get things out. And on the consumer side, we know that as soon as we buy the newest iPhone, the next one's going to be out, or there's some part of it, that's going to be outdated. In terms of technical debt, I was reading a stat that technical debt is expected to reach in costs of businesses, 5 trillion, US dollars over the next 10 years. How does OutSystems help customers address the challenges with technical debt and even reduce it? >> Yeah, I mean if you think about in the kind of the truest sense of technical debt, it's a decision that you make in the development process to basically load up the future with some work that you don't want to do right now. And so we're solving that issue where not only, you don't even have to make that decision. So you can go back to that concept of removing that cognitive load of, do I get the software out right now or do I get it out in the right way? And that's really what technical debt, technical debt is saying I need to get it out now. And there are some things I want to do that it'd be better if I did them now, but I'm going to go ahead and push that out into the future. You don't have to do that today with us. And so what happens with OutSystems is we invest in that platform. And this is hard. I mean, this is not an easy thing to do. This is why we have some of the best and brightest engineers focusing on this process at the heart of this, not to get too technical, but the heart of this is what we call the true change engine within our platform. We go through and we look at all of the changes that you need to make. So you think of that concept of technical debt of like, ah, I want to get this in the hands of end users, but I don't want to invest in the time to do something right. It's always done right, as far as with the OutSystems platform. So we take that, we look at the intent of your change. So it's like a process where you tell us the intent. When you as a application developer, you're designing an application, you tell us the intent of the application is to look and feel. It could be some business processes this could be some integrations. We determine what's the best way to do that and then once again, from a software disintegration standpoint, we continue to invest in all the right ways to do that the best way possible. And so, I mean, we have customers that have written applications that's 10, 15 years ago. They're still using our platform with those same applications they've added to them, but they have not rewritten those applications. And so if you think about the normal traditional development process, the technical debt incurred over that type of lifetime would be enormous. With us there's no technical debt. They're still using the same application they've simply added capabilities to it. We invest in that platform so they don't have to. >> So big business outcomes down, obviously from a developer productivity perspective, but from the company wide perspective, the ability to eliminate technical debt, some significant opportunities there. Talk to me about the existing OutSystems customers. When are they going to be able to take advantage of this? What is the migration or upgrade path that they can take and when? >> Yeah and so it is very important to me and the team as far as OutSystems to be able to integrate, to innovate as far as for customers, without disrupting customers. And we've probably all been through this path of great new technology is awesome. But then to actually utilize that technology when you're a current customer, it creates pain. And so we've invested heavily in making sure that the process is pain-free. So you can use Project Neo. So we are announcing it as in, it was in public preview as far as now, and then we will release it from GA as far as in the first quarter of next year. So over this timeframe, you'll be able to get in and try it out and all that. Continue to use your current version, which is OutSystems 11. So what we affectionately call O-11, as far as Allo systems. The Allo systems 11 version continue to use, and you can continue to use that today side-by-side and coexistence with the Project Neo. And Project Neo is a code name. So we will have an official product name as for as at launch but it's our affectionate it's kind of a unofficial mascot as Neo. So we call the Project Neo is a little bit of a fun name and you can use it side by side and then in the future, you'll be able to migrate applications over. Or you can just continue to co-exist. I mean, we see a very long lifetime for OutSystems 11, it's a different platform, different technology behind the scenes. Project Neo's Kubernetes-base Linux containers. Based once again, on the ability, we went in with the gist and looked at it and said, re-architect, re-imagine, how would you do this if you had the best and brightest as far as engineers, architects, we have, which we do. Various market and those people and we did that. And so we did that for our customers. And so Neo is that OutSystems 11 still a great choice. If you have applications on it, you can use it. And we have, we anticipate the customers will actually side by side develop on both in which we have some customers in preview today. And that's the process that they have. They will develop on 11, they will develop on Neo and they will continue to do that. And there's no, we are dedicated to making sure that there's no disruption and no pain in that process. And then when customers are ready to migrate over, if that's what they choose, we'll help them migrate over. >> You make it sound easy. And I was wondering if Project Neo had anything to do with the new matrix movie I just saw the trailer for it the other day, I wonder if this is related. >> It was a happy coincidence. It is not easy let me, let me be clear. It is something we have been working on for three years and really this last year really kicked into high gear. And a lot of behind the scenes work, obviously for us, but once again, that's our value proposition. It's we do the hard work. So developers and the customers don't have to do that hard work. But no relations to Neo, I love, I do love the matrix movies. So it's a nice coincidence. (Lisa laughs) >> It is a nice coincidence. Last question, Patrick, for you, as we wrap up the calendar year 2021, we heading into 2022. I think we're all very hopeful that 2022 will be a better year than the last two. What are some of the things that you see as absolutely critical for enterprises? What are they most concerned about right now? >> Yeah, I think it's, look I mean, it's obviously it has been a crazy a couple of years. And if you think about what enterprises want, I mean, they want to provide a great experiences for their customers, a great experience for their employees. Once again, digital transformation, where you don't even kind of talk about digital transformation more because we're in it. And I think that customers need to make sure that the experiences they provide these digital experiences are the best possible experiences. And these are differentiators. These are differentiators for employees. These are differentiators for customers. I believe that software is one of the big differentiators for businesses today and going forward. And that will continue to be so where businesses may be invested in supply chains, invested in certain types of technologies. Business will continue to invest in software because software is that differentiator. And if you look at where we fit, you can go, you can go buy, some great set of software, my software as a service off the shelf. In the end, you're just like every other business you bought the same thing that everybody else had bought. You can go the traditional development route, where you invest a bunch of money, it's a high risk, takes a long time. And once again, you may not get what you want. We believe what is most important to businesses. Get that unique software that fits like a glove that is great for employees, it's great for their customers. And it is a unique differentiator for them. And I really see that in 2022, that's going to be big and going forward. They're the legs for that type of investment that companies make and they return on that is huge. >> I agree with you on that in terms of software as a differentiator. Now we're seeing every company become a software company in every industry these days to be, first to survive in the last 20 months and now to be competitive, it's really kind of a must have. So, Patrick thank you for joining me on the program, talking about Project Neo, GA in the first quarter of calendar year 22. Exciting stuff we appreciate your feedback and your insights and congratulations on Project Neo. >> Thanks, Lisa, appreciate it. >> For Patrick Jean, I'm Lisa Martin, and you're watching theCUBEs continuous coverage of re:Invent 2021. (Outro music)

>>Welcome back to HPD discovered 2021. The virtual edition. My name is Dave Volonte and you're watching the cubes continuous coverage of H. P. S. Big customer event. Patrick Moorehead is here of moor insights and strategy is the number one analyst in the research analyst. Business. Patrick. Always a pleasure. Great to see you, >>David. Great to see you too. And I know you're you're up there fighting for that number one spot to. It's great to see you and it's great to see you in the meetings that were in. But it's even more fun to be here on the cube. I love to be on the cube and every once in a while you'll even call me a friend of the cube, >>unquestionably my friend and so and I can't wait second half. I mean you're traveling right now. We're headed to Barcelona to mobile World Congress later on this month. So so we're gonna we're gonna see each other face to face this year. 100%. So looking forward to that. So you know, let's get into it. Um you know, before we get into H. P. E. Let's talk a little bit about what you're seeing in the market. We've got, you know, we we finally, it feels like the on prem guys are finally getting their cloud act together. Um it's maybe taken a while, but we're seeing as a service models emerge. I think it's resonating with customers. The clearly not everything is moving to the cloud. There's this hybrid model emerging. Multi cloud is real despite what, you know, >>some some >>cloud players want to say. And then there's this edges like jump ball, what are you seeing in the marketplace? >>Yeah. Davis, as exciting as ever in. Just to put in perspective, I mean the public cloud has been around for about 10 years and still only 20% around 20% of the data in 20% of the applications are there now will be a very important ones and I'm certainly not a public cloud denier, I never have been, but there are some missing pieces that need to come together. And you know, even five years ago we were debating dave the hybrid cloud. And I feel like when amazon brought out outposts, the conversation was over right now, what you have is cloud native folks building out hybrid and on prem capabilities, you have a classic on, on prem folks building out hybrid and as a service capabilities. And I really think it boils down 22 things. I mean it's, it's wanting to have more flexibility and you know, I hate to use it because it sounds like a marketing word, but agility, the ability to spin up things and spin down things in a very, a quick way. And uh you know what they've learned, The veterans also know, hey, let's do this in a way that doesn't lock us in too much into a certain vendor. And I've been around for a long time. David and I'm a realist too. Well, you have to lock yourself into something. Uh it just depends on what do you want to lock yourself into, but super exciting and what H. P. E. You know, when they further acts in the sea with Green Lake, I think it was four years ago, uh I think really started to stir the pot. >>You know, you mentioned the term cloud denial, but you know, and I feel like the narrative from, I like to determine as I think you should use the term veteran. You know, it's very, they're ours is the only industry patrick where legacy is a pejorative, but so, but the point I want to make is I feel like there's been a lot of sort of fear from the veteran players, but, but I look at it differently, I wonder what your take is. I, I think, I think I calculated that the Capex spending by the big four public clouds including Alibaba last year was $100 billion. That's like a gift to the world. Here we're gonna spend $100 billion like the internet. Here you go build. And so I, and I feel like companies like HP are finally saying, yeah, we're gonna build, we're gonna build a layer and we're gonna hide the complexity and we're gonna add value on top. What do you think about that? >>Yeah. So I think it's now, I wish, I wish the on prem folks like HP, you would have done it 10 years ago, but I don't think anybody expected the cloud to be as big as it's become over the last 10 years. I think we saw companies like salesforce with sas taking off, but I think it is the right direction because there are advantages to having workloads on prem and if you add an as a service capability on top of the top of that, and let's say even do a Coehlo or a managed service, it's pretty close to being similar to the public cloud with the exception, that you can't necessarily swipe a credit card for a bespoke workload if you're a developer and it is a little harder to scale out. But that is the next step in the equation day, which is having, having these folks make capital expenditures, make them in a Polo facility and then put a layer to swipe a credit card and you literally have the public cloud. >>Yeah. So that's, that's a great point. And that's where it's headed, isn't it? Um, so let's, let's talk about the horses on the track. Hp as you mentioned, I didn't realize it was four years ago. I thought it was, wow, That's amazing. So everybody's followed suit. You see, Dallas announced, Cisco has announced, uh, Lenovo was announced, I think IBM as well. So we, so everybody's sort of following suit there. The reality is, is it's taken some time to get this stuff standardized. What are you seeing from, from HP? They've made some additional announcements, discover what's your take on all this. >>Yeah. So HPD was definitely the rabbit here and they were first in the market. It was good to see. First off some of their, Um, announcements on, on how it's going and they talked about $428 billion 1200 customers over 900 partners and 95% retention. And I think that's important. Anybody who's in the lead and remember what aws I used to do with the slide with the amount of customers would just get bigger and bigger and bigger and that's a good way to show momentum. I like the retention part two which is 95%. And I think that that says a lot uh probably the more important announcements that they made is they talked about the G. A. Of some of their solutions on Green Lake and whether it is A. S. A. P. Hana. Ml apps HPC with Francis, VD. I was Citrus and video but they also brought more of what I would call a vertical layer and I'm sure you've seen the vertical ization of all of these cloud and as a service workloads. But what they're doing with Epic, with EMR and looseness, with financial payments and Splunk and intel with data and risk analysis and finally, a full stack for telco five G. One of the biggest secrets and I covered this about five years ago is HPV actually has a full stack that Western european carriers use and they're now extending that to five G. And um, so more horizontal, uh, and, and more vertical. That was the one of the big swipes, uh, that I saw that there was a second though, but maybe we can talk about these. >>Yeah. Okay. Okay. So, so the other piece of that of course is standardization right there there because there was a, there was a, there was a lot of customization leading up to this and everybody sort of, everybody always had some kind of financial game they can play and say, hey, there's an adversary as a service model, but this is definitely more of a standardized scalable move that H P E. Is making with what they call Lighthouse. Right? >>Yeah, that's exactly right. And I've talked to some Green Lake customers and they obviously gave it kudos or they wouldn't have HP wouldn't have served them up and they wouldn't have been buying it. But they did say, um, it took, it took a while, took some paperwork to get it going. It's not 100% of push button, but that's partially because hp allows you to customize the hardware. You want a one off network adapter. Hp says yes, right. You want to integrate a different type of storage? They said yes. But with Green Lake Lighthouse, it's more of a, what you see is what you get, which by the way, is very much like the public cloud or you go to a public cloud product sheet or order sheet. You're picking from a list and you really don't know everything that's underneath the covers, aside from, let's say, the speed of the network, the type of the storage and the amount of the storage you get. You do get to pick between, let's say, an intel processor, Graviton two or an M. D processor. You get to pick your own GPU. But that's pretty much it. And HP Lighthouse, sorry, Green Lake Lighthouse uh is bringing, I think a simplification to Green Lake that it needs to truly scale beyond, let's say the White House customers that HP Yeah, >>Well done. So, you know, and I hear your point about we're 10 years in plus. And to me this is like a mandate. I mean, this is okay, good, good job guys about time. But if I had a, you know, sort of look at the big player, it's like we have an oligopoly here in this, in this business. It's HP, Cisco, you got Dell Lenovo, you've got, you know, IBM, they're all doing this and they all have a different little difference, you know, waste of skin of catch. And your point about simplicity, it seems like HP HP is all in antony's like, okay, here's what we're going to announce that, you know, a while ago. So, and they seem to have done a good job with Wall Street and they got a simple model, you know, Dell is obviously bigger portfolio, much more complicated. IBM is even more complicated than that. I don't know so much about Lenovo and in Cisco of course, has acquired a ton of SAAS companies and sort of they've got a lot of bespoke products that they're trying to put together. So they've got, but they do have SAS models. So each of them is coming at it from a different perspective. How do you think? And so and the other point we got lighthouse, which is sort of Phase one, get product market fit. Phase two now is scale, codify standardized and then phase three is the moat build your unique advantage that protects your business. What do you see as HP ES sort of unique value proposition and moat that they can build longer term. >>That's a great, great question. And let me rattle off kind of what I'm seeing that some of these players here, So Cisco, ironically has sells the most software of any of those players that you mentioned, uh with the exception of IBM um and yeah, C I >>CSDB two. Yeah, >>yeah, they're the they're the number two security player, uh Microsoft, number one, So and I think the evaluation on the street uh indicate that shows that I feel like Dell tech is a very broad play because not only do they have servers, storage, networking insecurity, but they also have Pcs and devices. So it's a it's a scale and end play with a focus on VM ware solutions, not exclusively of course. Uh And um then you've got Lenovo who is just getting into the as a service game and are gosh, they're doing great in hyper scale, they've got scale there vertically integrated. I don't know if if too many people talk about that, but Lenovo does a lot of their own manufacturing and they actually manufacture Netapp storage solutions as well. So yeah, each of these folks brings a different game to the table. I think with h P e, what you're bringing the table is nimble. When HP and HP split, the number one thing that I said was that ah, h P E is going to have to be so much faster than it offsets the scale that Dell technology has and the HBs credit, although there, I don't think we're getting credit for this in the stock market yet. Um and I know you and I are both industry folks, not financial folks, but I think their biggest thing is speed and the ability to move faster. And that is what I've seen as it relates to the moat, which is a unique uh competitive advantage. Quite frankly, I'm still looking for that day uh in in in what that is. And I think in this industry it's nearly impossible. And I would posit that that any, even the cloud folks, if you say, is there something that AWS can do that as your can't if it put it put its mind to it or G C P. I don't think so. I think it's more of a kind of land and expand and I think for H P E. When it comes to high performance computing and I'm not just talking about government installations, I'm talking about product development, drug development. I think that is a landing place where H P. E already does pretty well can come in and expand its footprint. >>You know, that's really interesting um, observations. So, and I would agree with you. It's kind of like, this is a copycat industry. It's like the west coast offense like the NFL, >>so, >>so the moat comes from, you know, brand execution and your other point about when HP and HP split, that was a game changer because all of a sudden you saw companies like them, you always had a long term relationship with H P E, but or HP, but then they came out of the woodworks and started to explode. And so it really opened up opportunities. So it really is a execution, isn't it? But go ahead please. >>Dave if I had to pick something that I think HP HPV needs to always be ahead in as a service and listen you and I both know announcements don't mean delivery, but there is correlation between if you start four years ahead of somebody that other company is going to have to put just, I mean they're going to have to turn that ship and many of its competitors really big ships to be able to get there. So I think what Antonio needs to do is run like hell, right? Because it, it I think it is in the lead and as a service holistically doesn't mean they're going to be there forever, but they have to stay ahead. They have to add more horizontal solutions. They have to add more vertical solutions. And I believe that at some point it does need to invest in some Capex at somebody like Anna Quinn X play credit card swiper on top of that. And Dave, you have the public, you have the public cloud, you don't have all the availability zones, but you have a public cloud. >>Yeah, that's going to happen. I think you're right on. So we see this notion of cloud expanding. It's no longer just remote set of services. Somewhere out in the cloud. It's like you said, outpost was the sort of signal. Okay, We're coming on prem. Clearly the on prem uh, guys are connecting to the cloud. Multi cloud exists, we know this and then there's the edge but but but that brings me to that sort of vision and everybody's laying out of this this this seamless integration hiding the complexity log into my cloud and then life will be good. But the edge is different. Right? It's not just, you know, retail store or a race track. I mean there's the far edge, there's the Tesla car, there's gonna be compute everywhere and that sort of ties into the data. The data flows, you know the real time influencing at the edge ai new semiconductor models. You you came out of the semiconductor industry, you know it inside and out arm is exploding, dominating in the edge with apple and amazon Alexa and things like that. That's really where the action is. So this is a really interesting cocktail and soup that we have going on. How do >>you say? Well, you know, Dave if the data most data, I think one thing most everybody agrees on is that most of the data will be created on the edge, whether that's a moving edge a car, a smartphone or what I call an edge data center without tile flooring. Like that server that's bolted to the wall of Mcdonald's. When you drive through, you can see it versus the walmart. Every walmart has a raised tile floor. It's the edge to economically and performance wise, it doesn't make any sense to send all that data to the mother ships. Okay. And whether that's unproven data center or the giant public cloud, more efficient way is to do the compute at the closest way possible. But what it does, it does bring up challenges. The first challenge is security. If I wanted to, I could walk in and I could take that server off the Mcdonald's or the Shell gas station wall. So I can't do that in a big data center. Okay, so security, physical security is a challenge. The second is you don't have the people to go in there and fix stuff that are qualified. If you have a networking problem that goes wrong in Mcdonald's, there's nobody there that can help uh they can they can help you fix that. So this notion of autonomy and management and not keeping hyper critical data sitting out there and it becomes it becomes a security issue becomes a management issue. Let me talk about the benefits though. The benefits are lower latency. You want you want answers more quickly when that car is driving down the road And it has a 5GV 2 x communication cameras can't see around corners. But that car communicating ahead, that ran into the stop sign can, through Vita X talked to the car behind it and say, hey, something is going on there, you can't go to, you can't go to the big data center in the sky, let's make that happen, that is to be in near real time and that computer has to happen on the edge. So I think this is a tremendous opportunity and ironically the classic on prem guys, they own this, they own this space aside from smartphones of course, but if you look at compute on a light pole, companies like Intel have built complete architecture is to do that, putting compute into five G base stations, heck, I just, there was an announcement this week of google cloud and its gaming solution putting compute in a carrier edge to give lower latency to deliver a better experience. >>Yeah, so there, of course there is no one edge, it's highly fragmented, but I'm interested in your thoughts on kinda whose stack actually can play at the edge. And I've been sort of poking uh H P E about this. And the one thing that comes back consistently is Aruba, we we could take a room but not only to the, to the near edge, but to the far edge. And and that, do you see that as a competitive advantage? >>Oh gosh, yes. I mean, I would say the best acquisition That hp has made in 10 years has been aruba, it's fantastic and they also managed it in the right way. I mean it was part of HB but it was, it was managed a lot more loosely then, you know, a company that might get sucked into the board and I think that paid off tremendously. They're giving Cisco on the edge a absolute run for their money, their first with new technologies, but it's about the solution. What I love about what a ruble looks at is it's looking at entertainment solutions inside of a stadium, a information solution inside of an airport as opposed to just pushing the technology forward. And then when you integrate compute with with with Aruba, I think that's where the real magic happens. Most of the data on a permanent basis is actually video data. And a lot of it's for security, uh for surveillance. And quite frankly, people taking videos off, they're off their smartphones and downloaded video. I I just interviewed the chief network officer of T mobile and their number one bit of data is video, video uploaded, video download. But that's where the magic happens when you put that connectivity and the compute together and you can manage it in a, in an orderly and secure fashion. >>Well, I have you we have a ton of time here, but I I don't pick your brain about intel the future of intel. I know you've been following it quite closely, you always have Intel's fighting a forefront war, you got there battling a. M. D. There, battling your arm slash and video. They're they're taking on TSMC now and in foundry and, and I'll add china for the looming threat there. So what's your prognosis for for intel? >>Yeah, I liked bob the previous Ceo and I think he was doing a lot of of the right things, but I really think that customers and investors and even their ecosystem wanted somebody leading the company with a high degree of technical aptitude and Pat coming, I mean, Pat had a great job at VM or, I mean he had a great run there and I think it is a very positive move. I've never seen the energy at Intel. Probably in the last 10 years that I've seen today. I actually got a chance to talk with Pat. I visited Pat uhh last month and and talk to him about pretty much everything and where he wanted to take the company the way you looked at technology, what was important, what's not important. But I think first off in the world of semiconductors, there are no quick fixes. Okay. Intel has a another two years Before we see what the results are. And I think 2023 for them is gonna be a huge year. But even with all this competition though, Dave they still have close to 85% market share in servers and revenue share for client computing around 90%. Okay. So and they built out there networking business, they build out a storage business um with obtain they have the leading Aid as provider with Mobileye. And and listen I was I was one of Intel's biggest, I was into one of Intel's biggest, I was Intel's biggest customer when I was a compact. I was their biggest competitor at A. M. B. So um I'm not obviously not overly pushing or there's just got to wait and see. They're doing the right things. They have the right strategy. They need to execute. One of the most important things That Intel did is extend their alliance with TSMC. So in 2023 we're going to see Intel compute units these tiles they integrate into the larger chips called S. O. C. S. B. Manufactured by TSMC. Not exclusively, but we could see that. So literally we could have AMG three nanometer on TSMC CPU blocks, competing with intel chips with TSMC three nanometer CPU blocks and it's on with regard to video. I mean in video is one of these companies that just keeps going charging, charging hard and I'm actually meeting with Jensen wang this week and Arm Ceo Simon Segers to talk about this opportunity and that's a company that keeps on moving interestingly enough in video. If the Arm deal does go through will be the largest chip license, see CPU licensee and have the largest CPU footprint on on the planet. So here we have A and D. Who's CPU and Gpu and buying an F. P. G. A company called Xilinx, you have Intel, Cpus, Gpus machine learning accelerators and F. P. G. S and then you've got arms slashing video bit with everything as well. We have three massive ecosystems. They're gonna be colliding here and I think it's gonna be great for competition date. Competition is great. You know, when there's not competition in Cpus and Gpus, we know what happens, right. Uh, the B just does not go on and we start to stagnate. And I did, I do feel like the industry on CPU started to stagnate when intel had no competition. So bring it on. This is gonna be great for for enterprises then customers to, and then, oh, by the way, the custom Chip providers, WS has created no less than 15 custom semiconductors started with networking uh, and, and nitro and building out an edge that surrounded the general compute and then it moved to Inferential to for inference trainee um, is about to come out for training Graviton and gravitas to for general purpose CPU and then you've got Apple. So innovation is huge and you know, I love to always make fun of the software is eating the world. I always say yeah but has to run on something. And so I think the combination of semiconductors, software and cloud is just really a magical combination. >>Real quick handicap the video arm acquisition. What what are the odds that that they will be successful? They say it's on track. You've got to 2 to 13 to 1 10 to 1. >>I say 75%. Yes 25%. No China is always the has been the odd odd man out for the last three years. They scuttled the qualcomm NXP deal. You just don't know what china is going to do. I think the Eu with some conditions is gonna let this fly. I think the U. S. Is absolutely going to let this fly. And even though the I. P. Will still stay over in the UK, I think the U. S. Wants to see, wants to see this happen. Japan and Korea. I think we'll allow this china is the odd man out. >>In a word, the future of H. P. E. Is blank >>as a service >>patrick Moorehead. Always a pleasure my friend. Great to see you. Thanks so much for coming back in the cube. >>Yeah, Thanks for having me on. I appreciate that. >>Everybody stay tuned for more great coverage from HP discover 21 this is day Volonte for the cube. The leader and enterprise tech coverage. We'll be right back. >>Mm.

>>Welcome back to HPD discovered 2021. The virtual edition. My name is Dave Volonte and you're watching the cubes continuous coverage of H. P. S. Big customer event. Patrick Moorehead is here of moor insights and strategy is the number one analyst in the research analyst. Business. Patrick. Always a pleasure. Great to see you, >>David. Great to see you too. And I know you're you're up there fighting for that number one spot to. It's great to see you and it's great to see you in the meetings that were in. But it's even more fun to be here on the cube. I love to be on the cube and every once in a while you'll even call me a friend of the cube, >>unquestionably my friend and so and I can't wait second half. I mean you're traveling right now. We're headed to Barcelona to mobile World Congress later on this month. So so we're gonna we're gonna see each other face to face this year. 100%. So looking forward to that. So, you know, let's get into it. Um you know, before we get into H. P. E. Let's talk a little bit about what you're seeing in the market. We've got, you know, we we we finally, it feels like the on prem guys are finally getting their cloud act together. Um, it's maybe taken a while, but we're seeing as a service models emerge. I think it's resonating with customers. The clearly not everything is moving to the cloud. There's this hybrid model emerging. Multi cloud is real despite what, you know, >>some some >>cloud players want to say. And then there's this edges like jump ball, what are you seeing in the marketplace? >>Yeah. Davis, as exciting as ever in. Just to put in perspective, I mean, the public cloud has been around for about 10 years and still only 20%. Around 20% of the data in 20% of the applications are there now, albeit very important ones. And I'm certainly not a public cloud denier, I never have been, but there are some missing pieces that need to come together. And you know, even five years ago we were debating dave the hybrid cloud and I feel like when Amazon brought out outposts, the conversation was over right now, what you have is cloud native folks building out hybrid and on prem capabilities, you have the classic on prem folks building out hybrid and as a service capabilities. And I really think it boils down 22 things. I mean it's wanting to have more flexibility and you know, I hate to use it because it sounds like a marketing word, but agility, the ability to spin up things and spin down things in a very quick way. And uh, you know what they've learned. The veterans also know, hey, let's do this in a way that doesn't lock us in too much into a certain vendor. And I've been around for a long time. David and I'm a realist too. Well, you have to lock yourself into something. It just depends on what do you want to lock yourself into, but super exciting. And what H. P. E. When they threw the acts in the sea with Green Lake, I think it was four years ago, I think really started to stir the pot. >>You know, you mentioned the term cloud denial, but you know, and I feel like the narrative from, I like to determine is I think you should use the term veteran. You know, it's very, they're ours is the only industry patrick where legacy is a pejorative, but but but so but the point I want to make is I feel like there's been a lot of sort of fear from the veteran players, but I look at it differently. I wonder what you're taking. I think, I think, I think I calculated that the Capex spending by the big four public clouds including Alibaba last year was $100 billion. That's like a gift to the world. Here, we're going to spend $100 billion like the internet here you go build. And and so I, and I feel like companies like HP are finally saying, yeah, we're gonna build, we're gonna build a layer and we're gonna hide the complexity and we're gonna add value on top. What do you think about that? >>Yeah. So I think it's now, I wish, I wish the on prem folks like HP, you would have done it 10 years ago, but I don't think anybody expected the cloud to be as big as it's become over the last 10 years. I think we saw companies like salesforce with sas taking off, but I think it is the right direction because there are advantages to having workloads on prem and if you add an as a service capability on top of the top of that, and let's say even do a Coehlo or a managed service, it's pretty close to being similar to the public cloud with the exception, that you can't necessarily swipe a credit card for a bespoke workload if you're a developer and it is a little harder to scale out. But that is the next step in the equation day, which is having, having these folks make capital expenditures, make them in a polo facility and then put a layer to swipe a credit card and you literally have the public cloud. >>Yeah. So that's, that's a great point and that's where it's headed, isn't it? Um, so let's, let's talk about the horses on the track. Hp. As you mentioned, I didn't realize it was four years ago. I thought it was, wow, That's amazing. So everybody's followed suit. You see, Dallas announced, Cisco has announced, uh, Lenovo was announced, I think IBM as well. So we, so everybody started following suit there. The reality is, is it's taken some time to get this stuff standardized. What are you seeing from, from HP? They've made some additional announcements, discover what's your take on all this. >>Yeah. So HPD was definitely the rabbit here and they were first in the market. It was good to see, first off some of their, Um, announcements on, on how it's going. And they talked about 4, $28 billion 1200 customers over 900 partners and 95% retention. And I think that's important anybody who's in the lead and remember what Aws used to do with the slide with the amount of customers would just get bigger and bigger and bigger and that's a good way to show momentum. I like the retention part two which is 95%. And I think that that says a lot uh probably the more important announcements that they made is they talked about the G. A. Of some of their solutions on Green Lake and whether it was S. A. P. Hana Ml apps HPC with Francis V. I was Citrus in video but they also brought more of what I would call a vertical layer and I'm sure you've seen the vertical ization of all of these cloud and as a service workloads. But what they're doing with Epic with EMR and looseness, with financial payments and Splunk and intel with data and risk analysis and finally, a full stack for telco five G. One of the biggest secrets and I covered this about five years ago is HPV actually has a full stack that western european carriers use and they're now extending that to five G. And um, so more horizontal uh and and more vertical. That was the one of the big swipes uh that I saw that there was a second though, but maybe we can talk about these. >>Yeah. Okay, Okay. So, so the other piece of that of course is standardization right there there because there was a, there was, there was a lot of customization leading up to this and everybody sort of, everybody always had some kind of financial game they can play and say, hey, there's an adversary as a service model, but this is definitely more of a standardized scalable move that H P E. Is making with what they call Lighthouse, Right? >>Yeah, that's exactly right. And I've talked to some Green Lake customers and they obviously gave it kudos or they wouldn't have HP wouldn't have served them up and they wouldn't have been buying it. But they did say, um, it took, it took a while, took some paperwork to get it going. It's not 100% of push button, but that's partially because hp allows you to customize the hardware. You want a one off network adapter. Hp says yes, right. You want to integrate a different type of storage? They said yes. But with Green Lake Lighthouse, it's more of a, what you see is what you get, which by the way is very much like the public cloud or you go to a public cloud product sheet or order sheet. You're picking from a list and you really don't know everything that's underneath the covers, aside from, let's say the speed of the network, the type of the storage and the amount of the storage you get. You do get to pick between, let's say, an intel processor, Graviton two or an M. D processor. You get to pick your own GPU. But that's pretty much it. And HP Lighthouse, sorry, Green Lake Lighthouse uh, is bringing, I think a simplification to Green Lake that it needs to truly scale beyond, let's say, the white house customers at HP. Yeah, >>Well done. So, you know, and I hear your point about 10 years in, you know, plus and to me this is like a mandate. I mean, this is okay. Good, good job guys about time. But if I had a, you know, sort of look at the big players, like, can we have an oligopoly here in this, in this business? It's HP, Cisco, you got Dell Lenovo, you've got, you know, IBM, they're all doing this and they all have a different little difference, you know, waste of skin of catch. And your point about simplicity, it seems like HP HP is all in Antonio's like, okay, here's what we're going to announce that, you know, while ago, so, and they seem to have done a good job with Wall Street and they get a simple model, you know, Dell's obviously bigger portfolio, much more complicated. IBM is even more complicated than that. I don't know so much about Lenovo and in Cisco of course, has acquired a ton of SAAS companies and sort of they've got a lot of bespoke products that they're trying to put together, so they've got, but they do have SAS models. So each of them is coming at it from a different perspective. How do you think? And so and the other point we got lighthouse, which is sort of Phase one, get product market fit. Phase two now is scale codify standardized and then phase three is the moat build your unique advantage that protects your business. What do you see as HP? Es sort of unique value proposition and moat that they can build longer term. >>That's a great, great question. And let me rattle off kind of what I'm seeing that some of these these players here. So Cisco, ironically, has sells the most software of any of those players that you mentioned, uh with the exception of IBM. Um, and yeah, C >>ICSDB two. Yeah, >>yeah, they're the they're the number two security player, uh, Microsoft, number one. So and I think the evaluation on the street uh indicate that shows that I feel like uh Deltek is a is a very broad play because not only do they have servers, storage, networking and security, but they also have Pcs and devices, so it's a it's a scale and end play with a focus on VM ware solutions, not exclusively, of course. Uh And um then you've got Lenovo who is just getting into the as a service game and are gosh, they're doing great in hyper scale, they've got scale there vertically integrated. I don't know if if too many people talk about that, but Lenovo does a lot of their own manufacturing and they actually manufacture Netapp storage solutions as well. So yeah, each of these folks brings a different game to the table, I think with h P E, what your bring to the table is nimble. When HP and HP split, the number one thing that I said was that uh huh H P E is going to have to be so much faster than it offsets the scale that Dell technology has and the HBs credit, although there, I don't think we're getting credit for this in the stock market yet. Um, and I know you and I are both industry folks, not financial folks, but I think their biggest thing is speed and the ability to move faster and that is what I've seen as it relates to the moat, which is a unique uh, competitive advantage. Quite frankly, I'm still looking for that day in, in, in what that is and I think in this industry it's nearly impossible and I would posit that that any, even the cloud folks, if you say, is there something that AWS can do that Azure can't, if it put it put its mind to it or G C P. I don't think so. I think it's more of a kind of land and expand and I think for H P E, when it comes to high performance computing and I'm not just talking about government installations, I'm talking about product development, drug development, I think that is a landing place where H P E already does pretty well can come in and expand its footprint, >>you know, that's really interesting um, observations. So, and I would agree with you, it's kind of like, this is a copycat industry, it's like the west coast offense, like the NFL >>and >>so, so the moat comes from, you know, brand execution and your other point about when HP and HP split, that was a game changer, because all of a sudden you saw companies like them, you always had a long term relationship with H P E but or HP, but then they came out of the woodworks and started to explode. And so it really opened up opportunities. So it really >>is an execution, >>isn't it? But go ahead, please >>Dave if I had to pick something that I think HP HPV needs to always be ahead and as a service and listen, you know, I both know announcements don't mean delivery, but there is correlation between if you start four years ahead of somebody that other company is going to have to put just, I mean they're gonna have to turn that ship and many of its competitors really big ships to be able to get there. So I think what Antonio needs to do is run like hell, right, Because it, it, I think it is in the lead and as a service holistically doesn't mean they're going to be there forever, but they have to stay ahead. They have to add more horizontal solutions. They have to add more vertical solutions. And I believe that at some point it does need to invest in some Capex at somebody like ANna Quinn x play credit card swiper on top of that. And Dave, you have the public, you have the public cloud, you don't have all the availability zones, but you have a public cloud. >>Yeah, that's going to happen. I think you're right on. So we see this notion of cloud expanding. It's no longer just remote set of services. Somewhere out in the cloud. It's as you said, outpost was the sort of signal. Okay, We're coming on prem clearly the on prem, uh, guys are connecting to the cloud. Multi cloud exists, we know this and then there's the edge but but but that brings me to that sort of vision and everybody's laying out of this this this seamless integration hiding the complexity log into my cloud and then life will be good. But the edge is different. Right? It's not just, you know, retail store or a race track. I mean there's the far edge, there's the Tesla car, there's gonna be compute everywhere. And that sort of ties into the data. The data flows, you know the real time influencing at the edge ai new semiconductor models. You you came out of the semiconductor industry, you know it inside and out arm is exploding is dominating in the edge with with with apple and amazon Alexa and things like that. That's really where the action is. So this is a really interesting cocktail and soup that we have going on. How do you >>say? Well, you know, Dave if the data most data, I think one thing most everybody agrees on is that most of the data will be created on the edge. Whether that's a moving edge a car, a smartphone or what I call an edge data center without tile flooring. Like that server that's bolted to the wall of Mcdonald's. When you drive through, you can see it versus the walmart. Every walmart has a raised tile floor. It's the edge to economically and performance wise, it doesn't make any sense to send all that data to the mother ships. Okay. And whether that's unproven data center or the giant public cloud, more efficient way is to do the compute at the closest way possible. But what it does, it does bring up challenges. The first challenge is security. If I wanted to, I could walk in and I could take that server off the Mcdonald's or the Shell gas station wall. So I can't do that in a big data center. Okay, so security, Physical security is a challenge. The second is you don't have the people to go in there and fix stuff that are qualified. If you have a networking problem that goes wrong and Mcdonald's, there's nobody there that can help uh, they can they can help you fix that. So this notion of autonomy and management and not keeping hyper critical data sitting out there and it becomes it becomes a security issue becomes a management issue. Let me talk about the benefits though. The benefits are lower latency. You want you want answers more quickly when that car is driving down the road and it has a five G V two X communication cameras can't see around corners, but that car communicating ahead, that ran into the stop sign, can I through vi to X. Talk to the car behind it and say, hey, something is going on there, you can't go to, you can't go to the big data center in the sky to make that happen, that is to be in near real time and that computer has to happen on the edge. So I think this is a tremendous opportunity and ironically the classic on prem guys, they own this, they own this space aside from smartphones of course, but if you look at compute on a light pole, companies like Intel have built Complete architectures to do that, putting compute into 5G base stations. Heck, I just, there was an announcement this week of google cloud in its gaming solution putting compute in a carrier edge to give lower latency to deliver a better experience. >>Yeah, so there, of course there is no one edge, it's highly fragmented, but I'm interested in your thoughts on kind of who's stack actually can play at the edge. And I've been sort of poking uh H P E about this. And the one thing that comes back consistently is Aruba, we we can take a room but not only to the, to the near edge, but to the far edge. And and that, do you see that as a competitive advantage? >>Oh gosh, yes. I mean, I would say the best acquisition That hp has made in 10 years has been aruba it's fantastic. And they also managed it in the right way. I mean, it was part of HB but it was it was managed a lot more loosely then, you know, a company that might get sucked into the board. And I think that paid off tremendously. They're giving Cisco on the edge a absolute run for their money, their first with new technologies. But it's about the solution. What I love about what a ruble looks at is it's looking at entertainment solutions inside of a stadium, um a information solution inside of an airport as opposed to just pushing the technology forward. And then when you integrate compute with with with Aruba, I think that's where the real magic happens. Most of the data on a permanent basis is actually video data. And a lot of it's for security uh for surveillance. And quite frankly, people taking videos off, they're off their smartphones and downloading video. I I just interviewed the chief network officer of T mobile and their number one bit of data is video, video uploaded, video download. But that's where the magic happens when you put that connectivity and the compute together and you can manage it in a, in an orderly and secure fashion >>while I have you, we have a ton of time here, but I I don't pick your brain about intel, the future of intel. I know you've been following it quite closely, you always have Intel's fighting a forefront war. You got there, battling A. M. D. There, battling your arm slash and video. They're they're taking on TSMC now and in foundry and, and I'll add china for the looming threat there. So what's your prognosis for for intel? >>Yeah, I liked bob the previous Ceo and I think he was doing a lot of of the right things, but I really think that customers and investors and even their ecosystem wanted somebody leading the company with a high degree of technical aptitude and Pat coming, I mean, Pat had a great job at VM or, I mean, he had a great run there and I think it is a very positive move. I've never seen the energy At Intel probably in the last 10 years that I've seen today. I actually got a chance to talk with pat. I visited pat uhh last month and and talk to him about pretty much everything and where he wanted to take the company the way you looked at technology, what was important, what's not important. But I think first off in the world of semiconductors, there are no quick fixes. Okay. Intel has a another two years Before we see what the results are. And I think 2023 for them is gonna be a huge year. But even with all this competition though, Dave they still have close to 85% market share in servers and revenue share for client computing around 90%. Okay. So and they've built out there networking business, they build out a storage business um with with obtain they have the leading Aid as provider with Mobileye. And and listen I was I was one of Intel's biggest, I was into one of Intel's biggest, I was Intel's biggest customer when I was a compact. I was their biggest competitor at AMG. So um I'm not obviously not overly pushing or there's just got to wait and see. They're doing the right things. They have the right strategy. They need to execute. One of the most important things That Intel did is extend their alliance with TSMC. So in 2023 we're going to see Intel compute units these tiles, they integrate into the larger chips called S. O. C S B. Manufactured by TSMC. Not exclusively, but we could see that. So literally we could have AMG three nanometer on TSMC CPU blocks, competing with intel chips with TSMC three nanometer CPU blocks and it's on with regard to video. I mean in video is one of these companies that just keeps going charging, charging hard and I'm actually meeting with Jensen wang this week and Arms Ceo Simon Segers to talk about this opportunity and that's a company that keeps on moving interestingly enough in video. If the arm deal does go through will be the largest chip license, see CPU licensee and have the largest CPU footprint on the planet. So here we have AMG who's CPU and Gpu and buying an F. P. G. A company called Xilinx, you have Intel, Cpus, Gpus machine learning accelerators and F. P. G. S. And then you've got arms slashing video bit with everything as well. We have three massive ecosystems. They're gonna be colliding here and I think it's gonna be great for competition. Date. Competition is great. You know, when there's not competition in CPUs and Gpus, we know what happens right. Uh, the beach just does not go on and we start to stagnate. And I did, I do feel like the industry on CPU started to stagnate when intel had no competition. So bring it on. This is gonna be great for for enterprises then customers to and then, oh, by the way, you have the custom Chip providers. WS has created no less than 15 custom semiconductors started with networking and nitro and building out an edge that surrounded the general computer. And then it moved to Inferential for inference trainee um, is about to come out for training Graviton and Gravitas to for general purpose CPU and then you've got apple. So innovation is huge and I love to always make fun of the software is eating the world. I always say yeah but has to run on something. And so I think the combination of semiconductors software and cloud is just really a magical combination. >>Real quick handicap the video arm acquisition. What what are the odds that that they will be successful? They say it's on track. You got a 2 to 13 to 1 10 to 1. >>I say 75%. Yes 25%. No China is always the has been the odd odd man out for the last three years. They scuttled the Qualcomm NXp deal. You just don't know what china is going to do. I think the EU with some conditions is going to let this fly. I think the U. S. Is absolutely going to let this fly. And even though the I. P. Will still stay over in the UK, I think the U. S. Wants to see wants to see this happen, Japan and Korea I think we'll allow this china is the odd man out. >>In a word, the future of h p. E is blank >>as a service >>patrick Moorehead. Always a pleasure. My friend. Great to see you. Thanks so much for coming back in the cube. >>Yeah, Thanks for having me on. I appreciate that. >>Everybody stay tuned for more great coverage from HP discover 21 this is day Volonte for the cube. The leader and enterprise tech coverage. We'll be right back.