>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of biz ops Manifesto unveiled. Brought to you by Biz Ops Coalition. Hey, Welcome back, everybody. Jeffrey here with the Cube. We're coming to you from our Palo Alto studios. And welcome back to this event. Is the biz Opps Manifesto unveiling? So the biz Opps manifesto and the biz Opps coalition have been around for a little while, But today's the big day. That's kind of the big public unveiling are excited to have some of the foundational people that put their put their name on the dotted line, if you will, to support this initiative to talk about why that initiative is so important. And so the next guest, we're excited to have his doctor, Mick Kirsten. He is the founder and CEO of Task Top. Make great to see you coming in from Vancouver, Canada, I think. Right. >>Yes. Great to be here, Jeff. Thank you. Absolutely. >>I hope your air is a little better out there. I know you had some of the worst air of all of us a couple a couple of weeks back, so hopefully things air, uh, getting a little better. And we get those fires under control? >>Yeah, Things have cleared up now, so yeah, it's good. It's good to be close to the U. S. And it's gonna have the Arabic clean as well. >>Absolutely. So let's let's jump into it. So you you've just been an innovation guy forever Starting way back in the day and Xerox Park. I was so excited to do an event at Xerox Park for the first time last year. I mean that that to me represents along with Bell Labs and and some other, you know, kind of foundational innovation and technology centers. That's got to be one of the greatest one. So I just wonder if you could share some perspective of getting your start there at Xerox Parc. You know, some of the lessons you learn and what you've been ableto kind of carry forward from those days. >>Yeah, I was fortunate. Joined Xerox Park in the computer science lab there at a very early point in my career, and to be working on open source programming languages. So back then, and the computer science lab where some of the inventions around programming around software development names such as Object of programming and ah, lot of what we had around really modern programming levels construct. Those were the teams that had the fortune of working with and really our goal waas. And of course, there's a Z. You know, this, uh, there's just this DNA of innovation and excitement and innovation in the water. And really, it was the model that was all about changing the way that we work was looking at for how we could make it 10 times easier to write. Code like this is back in 99 we were looking at new ways of expressing especially business concerns, especially ways of enabling people who are who want to innovate for their business, to express those concerns in code and make that 10 times easier than what that would take. So we created a new open source programming language, and we saw some benefits, but not quite quite what we expected. I then went and actually joined Charles Stephanie that former chief actor Microsoft, who is responsible for I actually got a Microsoft word as a out of Xerox Parc and into Microsoft and into the hands of Bill Gates and the company I was behind the whole office suite and his vision and the one I was trying to execute with working for him was to, you know, make Power point like a programming language, make everything completely visual. And I realized none of this was really working, that there was something else fundamentally wrong that programming languages or new ways of building software like Let's try to do with Charles around intentional programming. That was not enough. >>That was not enough. So you know, the agile movement got started about 20 years ago, and we've seen the rise of Dev ops and really this kind of embracing of of, of sprints And, you know, getting away from M. R. D s and P. R. D s and these massive definitions of what we're gonna build and long billed cycles to this iterative process. And that's been going on for a little while. So what was still wrong? What was still missing? Why the Biz Ops Coalition? Why the biz ops manifesto? >>Yeah, so I basically think we nailed some of the things that the programming language levels of teams can have. Effective languages deployed softened the club easily now right and at the kind of process and collaboration and planning level agile two decades decades ago was formed. We were adopting all the all the teams I was involved with on. It's really become a solved problem. So agile tools, agile teams actually of planning are now very mature and the whole challenges when organizations try to scale that. And so what I realized is that the way that Agile was scaling across teams and really scaling from the Technology Party organization to the business was just completely flawed. The agile teams had one set of doing things. One set of metrics, one set of tools and the way that the business was working was planning was investing in technology was just completely disconnected and using a a whole different set of measures. It's pretty interesting because I think it's >>pretty clear from the software development teams in terms of what they're trying to deliver, because they've got a feature set right and they've got bugs and it's easy. It's easy to see what they deliver, but it sounds like what you're really honing in on is is disconnect on the business side in terms of, you know, is it the right investment you know. Are we getting the right business? R o I on this investment? Was that the right feature? Should we be building another feature or shall we building a completely different products? That so it sounds like it's really a core piece of this is to get the right measurement tools, the right measurement data sets so that you can make the right decisions in terms of what you're investing, you know, limited resource is you can't Nobody has unlimited resources and ultimately have to decide what to do, which means you're also deciding what not to dio. It sounds like that's a really big piece of this of this whole effort. >>Yeah, Jeff, that's exactly it. Which is the way that the adult measures their own way of working is very different from the way that you measure business outcomes. The business outcomes are in terms of how happy your customers are. Are you innovating fast enough to keep up with the pace of, ah, rapidly changing economy, rapidly changing market and those are those are all around the customer. And so what? I learned on this long journey of supporting many organizations transformations and having them trying to apply those principles vigilant develops that those are not enough. Those measures technical practices, those measures, technical excellence of bringing code to the market. They don't actually measure business outcomes. And so I realized that really was much more around having these entwined flow metrics that are customer centric and business centric and market centric where we needed to go. So I want to shift gears >>a little bit and talk about your book because you're also a best selling author project a product, and and you you brought up this concept in your book called The Flow Framework. And it's really interesting to me because I know, you know, flow on one hand is kind of a workflow in the process flow, and you know that's how things get done and and embrace the flow. On the other hand, you know, everyone now in a little higher level, existential way is trying to get into the flow right into the workflow and, you know not be interrupted and get into a state where you're kind of your highest productivity, you know, kind of your highest comfort. Which floor you talking about in your book, or is it a little bit of both. >>That's a great question, is it's not what I gotta ask very often, cause me, it's It's absolutely both. So the thing that we want to get that we've learned how toe and, uh, master individual flow, that there's this beautiful book by me Holly teachings mentality. There's a beautiful Ted talk about him as well, about how we can take control of our own flow. So my question with the book with project surprise, How can we bring that to entire teams and really entire organizations? How come we have everyone contributing to a customer outcome? And this is really what if you go to the bazaar manifesto? It says, I focus on Out comes on using data to drive, whether we're delivering those outcomes rather than a focus on proxy metrics such as How quickly did we implement this feature? And now it's really how much value did the customs of the future and how quickly did we learn? And how quickly did you use that data to drive to that next outcome? Really, that with companies like Netflix on, like Amazon, have mastered, how do we get that every large organization, every idea, organization and make everyone be a softer innovator. So it's to bring that on the concept of flow to these entering value streams. And the fascinating thing is, we've actually seen the data. We've been able to study a lot of value streams. We see when flow increases, when organizations deliver value to a customer faster developers actually become more happy. So things like that implying that promotes course rise. And we've got empirical data for this. So that beautiful thing to me is that we've actually been able thio, combine these two things and and see the results in the data that you increased flow to the customer, your development or more happy. I >>love it. I love it, right, because we're all more. We're all happier when we're in the flow and we're all more productive winner in the flow. So I that is a great melding of two concepts. But let's jump into the into the manifesto itself a little bit. And you know, I love that you know, that took this approach really of having kind of four key values, and he gets 12 key principles and I just want to read a couple these values because when you read them, it sounds pretty brain dead, right? Of course. Right. Of course, you should focus on business outcomes. Of course, you should have trust and collaboration. Of course, you should have data based decision making processes and not just intuition or, you know, whoever is the loudest person in the room on toe, learn and respond and pivot. But >>what's the >>value of actually just putting them on a piece of paper? Because again, this is not this. These are all good positive things, right? When when somebody reads these to you or tells you these or sticks it on the wall? Of course. But unfortunately, of course, isn't always enough. >>No, I think what's happened is some of these core principles originally from the agile manifested two decades ago. The whole Dev ops movement of the last decade off flow feedback and continue learning has been key. But a lot of organizations, especially the ones undergoing transformations, have actually gone a very different way, right? The way that they measure value in technology innovation is through costs For many organizations, the way that they actually are looking at at their moving to cloud is actually is a reduction in costs, whereas the right way of looking at moving the cloud is how much more quickly can we get to the value to the customer? How quickly can we learn from that? And how could quickly can we drive the next business outcome? So, really, the key thing is to move away from those old ways of doing things that funding projects and call centers to actually funding and investing in outcomes and measuring outcomes through these flow metrics, which in the end are your fast feedback for how quickly you're innovating for your customer. So these things do seem, you know, very obvious when you look at them. But the key thing is what you need to stop doing. To focus on these, you need to actually have accurate real time data off how much value your phone to the customer every week, every month, every quarter. And if you don't have that, your decisions are not given on data. If you don't know what your bottle like, it's. And this is something that in the decades of manufacturing car manufacturers, other manufacturers master. They always know where the bottom back in their production processes you ask, uh, random. See, I all want a global 500 company where the bottleneck is, and you won't get it there. Answer. Because there's not that level of understanding. So have to actually follow these principles. You need to know exactly where you follow like is because that's what's making your developers miserable and frustrated on having them context, which on thrash So it. The approach here is important, and we have to stop doing these other things right. >>There's so much. They're a pack. I love it, you know, especially the cloud conversation, because so many people look at it wrong as a cost saving device as opposed to an innovation driver, and they get stuck, they get stuck in the literal. And, you know, I think the same thing always about Moore's law, right? You know, there's a lot of interesting riel tech around Moore's law and the increasing power of microprocessors. But the real power, I think in Moore's laws, is the attitudinal change in terms of working in a world where you know that you've got all this power and what will you build and design? E think it's funny to your your comment on the flow in the bottleneck, right? Because because we know manufacturing assumes you fix one bottleneck. You move to your next one, right, You always move to your next point of failure. So if you're not fixing those things, you know you're not. You're not increasing that speed down the line unless you can identify where that bottleneck is, or no matter how Maney improvements you make to the rest of the process, it's still going to get hung up on that one spot. >>That's exactly, and you also make it sound so simple. But again, if you don't have the data driven visibility of where the bottleneck is. And but these bottlenecks are just as you said, if it's just lack, um, all right, so we need to understand is the bottleneck, because our security use air taking too long and stopping us from getting like the customer. If it's that automate that process and then you move on to the next bottleneck, which might actually be that deploy yourself through the clouds is taking too long. But if you don't take that approach of going flow first rather than again the sort of way cost production first you have taken approach of customer centric city, and you only focus on optimizing cost. Your costs will increase and your flow will slow down. And this is just one, these fascinating things. Whereas if you focus on getting back to the customer and reducing your cycles on getting value your flow time from six months to two weeks or 21 week or two event as we see with tech giants, you actually could both lower your costs and get much more value. Of course, get that learning going. So I think I've I've seen all these cloud deployments and modernizations happen that delivered almost no value because there was such a big ball next up front in the process. And actually the hosting and the AP testing was not even possible with all of those inefficiencies. So that's why going flow first rather than costs. First, there are projects versus Sochi. >>I love that and and and and it begs, repeating to that right within a subscription economy. You know you're on the hook to deliver value every single month because they're paying you every single month. So if you're not on top of how you delivering value, you're going to get sideways because it's not like, you know, they pay a big down payment and a small maintenance fee every month. But once you're in a subscription relationship, you know you have to constantly be delivering value and upgrading that value because you're constantly taking money from the customers. It's it's such a different kind of relationship, that kind of the classic, you know, Big Bang with the maintenance agreement on the back end really important. >>Yeah, and I think in terms of industry ship, that's it. That's what catalyzed this industry shift is in this SAS that subscription economy. If you're not delivering more and more value to your customers, someone else's and they're winning the business, not you. So one way we know is that divide their customers with great user experiences. Well, that really is based on how many features you delivered or how much. How about how many quality improvements or scaler performance improvements you delivered? So the problem is, and this is what the business manifesto was was the forefront of touch on is, if you can't measure how much value delivered to a customer, what are you measuring? You just back again measuring costs, and that's not a measure of value. So we have to shift quickly away from measuring costs to measuring value to survive in in the subscription economy. Mick, >>we could go for days and days and days. I want to shift gears a little bit into data and and a data driven, um, decision making a data driven organization. Because right day has been talked about for a long time. The huge big data mean with with Hadoop over over several years and data warehouses and data lakes and data, oceans and data swamps and you go on and on, it's not that easy to do right. And at the same time, the proliferation of data is growing exponentially were just around the corner from from I, O. T and five G. So now the accumulation of data at machine scale again this is gonna overwhelm, and one of the really interesting principles that I wanted to call out and get your take right is today's organizations generate mawr data than humans can process. So informed decisions must be augmented by machine learning and artificial intelligence. I wonder if you can again, you've got some great historical perspective reflect on how hard it is to get the right data to get the data in the right context and then to deliver to the decision makers and then trust the decision makers to actually make the data and move that down. You know, it's kind of this democratization process into more and more people and more and more frontline jobs, making more and more of these little decisions every day. >>Yeah, and Jeff, I think the front part of what you said are where the promises of big data have completely fallen on their face into these swamps. As you mentioned, because if you don't have the data and the right format, you can connect, collected that the right way, you're not. Model it that way the right way. You can't use human or machine learning on it effectively. And there have been the number of data, warehouses and a typical enterprise organization, and the sheer investment is tremendous. But the amount of intelligence being extracted from those is a very big problem. So the key thing that I've known this is that if you can model your value streams so you actually understand how you're innovating, how you're measuring the delivery value and how long that takes. What is your time to value through these metrics? Like for the time you can actually use both. You know the intelligence that you've got around the table and push that balance as it the assay, far as you can to the organization. But you can actually start using that those models to understand, find patterns and detect bottlenecks that might be surprising, Right? Well, you can detect interesting bottle next one you shift to work from home. We detected all sorts of interesting bottlenecks in our own organization that we're not intuitive to me that had to do with more senior people being overloaded and creating bottlenecks where they didn't exist. Whereas we thought we were actually organization. That was very good at working from home because of our open source route. So the data is highly complex. Software Valley streams are extremely complicated, and the only way to really get the proper analysts and data is to model it properly and then to leverage these machine learning and AI techniques that we have. But that front, part of what you said, is where organizations are just extremely immature in what I've seen, where they've got data from all the tools, but not modeled in the right way. >>Well, all right, so before I let you go, you know? So you get a business leader he buys in. He reads the manifesto. He signs on the dotted line. He says, Mick, how do I get started? I want to be more aligned with With the development teams, you know, I'm in a very competitive space. We need to be putting out new software features and engage with our customers. I want to be more data driven. How do I get started? Well, you know, what's the biggest inhibitor for most people to get started and get some early winds, which we know is always the key to success in any kind of a new initiative, >>right? So I think you can reach out to us through the website. Uh, on the is a manifesto, but the key thing is just it's exactly what you said, Jeff. It's to get started and get the key wins. So take a probably value stream. That's mission critical. It could be your new mobile Web experiences, or or part of your cloud modernization platform where your analysts pipeline. But take that and actually apply these principles to it and measure the entire inflow of value. Make sure you have a volumetric that everyone is on the same page on, right. The people on the development teams that people in leadership all the way up to the CEO and one of the where I encourage you to start is actually that enter and flow time, right? That is the number one metric. That is how you measure whether you're getting the benefit of your cloud modernization. That is the one metric that even Cockcroft when people I respect tremendously put in his cloud for CEOs Metric 11 way to measure innovation. So basically, take these principles, deployed them on one product value stream measure into and flow time on. Then you'll actually you well on your path to transforming and to applying the concepts of agile and develops all the way to the business to the way in your operating model. >>Well, Mick, really great tips, really fun to catch up. I look forward to a time when we can actually sit across the table and and get into this, because I just I just love the perspective. And, you know, you're very fortunate to have that foundational, that foundational base coming from Xerox parc. And it's, you know, it's a very magical place with a magical history. So the to incorporate that and to continue to spread that wealth, you know, good for you through the book and through your company. So thanks for sharing your insight with us today. >>Thanks so much for having me, Jeff. Absolutely. >>Alright. And go to the biz ops manifesto dot org's Read it. Check it out. If you want to sign it, sign it. They'd love to have you do it. Stay with us for continuing coverage of the unveiling of the business manifesto on the Cube. I'm Jeffrey. Thanks for watching. See you next time.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of biz ops Manifesto unveiled Brought to you by Biz Ops Coalition >>Hey, Welcome back, everybody. Jeffrey here with the Cube. Welcome back to our ongoing coverage of the biz. Opps manifesto Unveil Something has been in the works for a little while. Today's a formal unveiling and we're excited to have three of the core founding members of the manifesto Authors of the manifesto, if you will joining us again. We've had them all on individually. Now we're gonna have a great power panel. First up, we have met Kirsten returning. He's the founder and CEO of Task Top make good to see again. Where you dialing in from? >>Great to see you again, Jeff. I'm dialing from Vancouver, Canada. >>Vancouver, Canada. One of my favorite cities in the whole wide world. Also, we've got Tom Davenport coming from across the country. He's a distinguished professor and author from Babson College. Tom, great to see. And I think you said you're a fund Exotic place on the East Coast. >>Falmouth, Massachusetts, on Cape Cod. >>Nice. Great to see you again. And also joining surge. Lucio. He is the VP and general manager Enterprise Software division at Broadcom Surge. Great to see you again. Where you coming in from? >>From Boston. Right next to kick off. Terrific. >>So welcome back, everybody again. Congratulations. On this day I know it's It's been a lot of work to get here for this unveil, but let's just jump into it. Biz Opps Manifesto What was the initial reason to do this? And how did you decide to do it in a kind of a coalition way, bringing together a group of people versus just making it an internal company, uh, initiative that, you know, you could do better stuff within your own company Surge. Why don't we start with you? >>Yeah, so? So I think we are really a critical juncture, right? Many large enterprises are basically struggling with their digital transformation. In fact, many recognized that the the Business Society collaboration has been one of the major impediments to drive that kind of transformation. And if we look at the industry today, many people or whether we're talking about vendors or system integrators, consulting firms are talking about the same kind of concepts but using very different language. And so we believe that bringing a lot these different players together assed part of the coalition and formalizing, uh, basically the core principles and values in a busy office manifesto. We can really start to have kind of a much bigger movement where we can all talk about kind of the same concepts. And we can really start to provide kind of a much better support for large organizations to transform eso, whether it is technology or services or trading. I think that that's really the value of bringing all of these players together >>and Mick to you. Why did you get involved in this in this effort? >>So I've been closely involved the actual movement since it started two decades ago with that manifesto, and I think we got a lot of improvement at the team level. And I think, as started just noted, we really need to improving. At the business level, every companies trying to become a software innovator trying to make sure that they can pick them, adapt quickly in the changing market economy and what everyone's dealing with in terms of needing to deliver value to customers. Sooner. However, agile practices have really focused that these metrics these measures and understanding processes that help teams be productive. Those things now need to be elevated to the business as a whole, and that just hasn't happened. Organizations are agile. Transmissions are actually failing because they're measuring activities and how they're becoming more agile. Have teams air functioning, not how much quickly they're delivering value to the customer. So we need to now move. Asked that. And that's exactly what the buzz off there's also manifested. Provides, >>right? Right And Tom to you. You've been covering tech for a very long time. You've been looking at really hard challenges and and a lot of work around analytics and data on data evolution. So there's a definitely a data angle here. I wonder if you kind of share your perspective of of what you got excited Thio to sign on to this manifesto? >>Sure. Well, I have. You know, for the past 15 or 20 years, I've been focusing on Data Analytics and AI. But before that, I was a process management guy and a knowledge management guy and a in general. I think, you know, we've just kind of optimized at too narrow a level. Whether you're talking about agile or Dev ops or, um, ml ops. Any of these kind of obs oriented movements, we're making individual project, um, performance and productivity better, But we're not changing the business effectively enough. And that's the thing that appealed to me about the biz ops idea that we're finally creating a closer connection between what we do with technology and how it changes the business and provides value to it. >>That's great, uh, surge back to you, right? I mean, people have been talking about digital transformation for a long time, and it's been, you know, kind of trucking along. And then Cove it hit, and it was instant lights, which everyone's working from home. You've got a lot more reliance on your digital tools, digital communication both within your customer base and your partner base, but also then you're employees. When if you could share how that really pushed this all along, right, because now suddenly the acceleration of digital transformation is higher. Even more importantly, you've got much more critical decisions to make into what you do next. So kind of your portfolio management of projects has been elevated significantly. When maybe revenues are down on. Do you really have Thio prioritize and get it right? >>Yeah. I mean, I'll just start by quoting city An Adele basically recently said that there's bean two years of digital transformation just last two months, and in many ways that's true. Um, but But yet when we look at large enterprises, they're still struggling with kind of a changes in culture that they really need Thio drive to be able to describe themselves. And not surprisingly, you know, when we look at certain parts of the industry, you know, we see some things which are very disturbing, right. About 40% of the personal loans today are being origin dated by Finn tax of a like of Sophie or or ah Lendingclub, right, Not your traditional brick and worked for bank. And so the while there is kind of ah, much more of an appetite, and it's it's more of a survival type driver these days. The reality is that in order for these large enterprises to truly transform and engage on these digital transformation, they need to start to really aligned the business 90 you know, in many ways and make cover that actually really emerge from the court desire to really improve software predictability, but we've which we have really missed is all the way. Start to aligning the software predictability to business predictability and to be able to have continuously continuous improvement and measurement off business outcomes. So by lining, but of this dis kind of inward metrics that I t is typically being using to business outcomes, we think we can start to really help different stakeholders within the organization to collaborate. So I think there is more than ever. There is an imperative to act now, um, and and results. I think it's kind of the right approach to drive that kind of transformation, >>right? I want to follow up on the culture comment with Utah because you've talked before about kind of process, flow and process flow throughout a whore, unorganized ation. And, you know, we talk about people process and tech all the time, and I think the tech is the easy part compared to actually changing the people the way they think and then the actual processes that they put in place. It's a much more difficult issue than just a tech issue to get this digital transformation in your organization. >>Yeah, you know, I've always found that the soft stuff the you know, the culture of the behavior of the values is the hard stuff to change and mawr and mawr. We we realized that to be successful with any kind of digital transformation, you have tow change, people's behaviors and attitudes. Um, we haven't made much progress in that area as we might have. I mean, I've done some surveys suggesting that most organizations still don't have data driven cultures, and in many cases, there is a lower percentage of companies that say they have that then did a few years ago. So we're kind of moving in the wrong direction, which means I think that we have to start explicitly addressing that cultural behavioral dimension and not just assuming that it will happen if we if we build a system, you know, if if we build it, they won't necessarily come right, >>right? So I want to go toe to you, Nick, because, you know, we're talking about work flows and flow. Andi, you've written about flow both in terms of, you know, moving things along a process and trying to find bottlenecks, identify bottlenecks which is now even more important again when these decisions are much more critical because you have a lot less ah, wiggle room in tough times. But you also talked about flow from the culture side on the people's side. So I wonder if you could just share your thoughts on, you know, using flow as a way to think about things to get the answers better? >>Yeah, absolutely. And I'll refer back to what Tom just said. If you're optimize, you need to optimize your system. You need to optimize how you innovate and how you deliver value to the business into the customer. Now what we've noticed in the data since that that we've learned from customers value streams, enterprise organizations, value streams is that what's taking six months and to and to deliver that value, the flow is that slow. You've got a bunch of unhappy developers. Unhappy customers, when you're innovating, have so high performing organizations we can measure their intent flow time in days. All of a sudden, that feedback loop the satisfaction your developers measurably goes up. So not only do you have people context switching last year, delivering so much more value to customers at a lower cost because you've optimized for flow rather than optimizing for these thes other approximately six that we use, which is how efficient my annual team. How quickly can we deploy software? Those are important, but they do not provide the value of agility, of fast learning, of adaptability, of the business. And that's exactly what the bishops manifesto pushes your organization to. You need to put in place this new operate model that's based on flow on the delivery of business value and on bringing value to market much more quickly than you were before, >>right? I love that. I'm gonna go back to Utah, him on that to follow up, because I think I don't think people think enough about how they prioritize what they're optimizing for. Because, you know, if you're optimizing for a vs B, you know you could have a very different product that that you kick out. You know, my favorite example with With Clayton Christensen and Innovator's Dilemma talking about the three inch our drive, if you optimize it for power, you know, is one thing. If you optimize it for vibration is another thing, and sure enough, you know they missed it on the Palm because it was the it was the game council which which drove that whole business. So when you're talking to customers and we think we're here with cloud all the time people optimizing for cost efficiency instead of thinking about it as an innovation tool, how do you help them? Kind of rethink and really, you know, forced them to to look at the at the prioritization and make sure they're prioritizing on the right thing is make just that. What do you optimizing for? >>Oh yeah, you have one of the most important aspects of any decision or attempt to resolve a problem in an organization is the framing process. And, um, you know, it's it's a difficult aspect toe of the decision toe frame it correctly in the first place. Um, there. It's not a technology issue. In many cases, it's largely a human issue. But if you frame that decision or that problem incorrectly too narrowly, say, or you frame it as an either or situation when you could actually have some of both, um, it's very difficult for the process toe work out correctly. So in many cases, I think we need to think mawr at the beginning about how we frame this issue or this decision in the best way possible before we charge off and build a system to support it. You know, it's worth that extra time to think. Think carefully about how the decision has been structured. Right? >>Surge. I wanna go back to you and talk about the human factors because we just discussed you could put in great technology. But if the culture doesn't adopt it and people don't feel good about it, you know it's not gonna be successful. And that's going to reflect poorly on the technology. Even if I had nothing to do with it. And you know, when you look at the core values of the best hopes manifesto, you know a big one is trust and collaboration. You know, learn, responded pivot. Wonder if you can share your thoughts on trying to get that cultural shift s so that you can have success with the people or excuse me with the technology in the process and helping customers, you know, take this more trustworthy and kind of proactive position. >>So I think I think at the ground level, it really starts with the realization that we were all different. We come from different backgrounds. Oftentimes we tend Thio. Blame the data. It's not uncommon my experience that we spend the first, you know, 30 minutes of any kind of one hour the conversation to debate the ability of the data on DSO, one of the first kind of probably manifestations that we've had. Our revelations as we start to engage with our customers is by just exposing high Fidelity data set two different stakeholders from their different lands. We start to enable these different stakeholders to not debate the data, but that's really collaborate to find a solution. So in many ways, when when when we think about kind of the types of changes were trying Thio truly affect around data driven decision making? It's all about bringing the data in context the context that is relevant and understandable for different stakeholders. Whether we're talking about an operator developed for a business analyst, so that's that's the first thing. The second layer, I think, is really to provide context to what people are doing in their specific silo. So I think one of the best examples I have is if you start to be able to align business k p i. Whether you are accounting, you know, with sales per hour or the engagement of your users on your mobile application, whatever it is, if you start to connect that k p I business K p I to the key piece that developers might be looking at, whether it is now the number of defects or velocity or whatever over metrics that they are used to to actually track, you start to be able to actually contextual eyes in what we are. The affecting, basically metric that that is really relevant. And what we see is that this is a much more systematic way to approach the transformation than say, You know, some organizations kind of creating some of these new products or services or initiatives to to drive engagement, right? So, you know, if you look at zoom, for instance, Zoom giving away, it's service thio education is all about. I mean, there's obviously a marketing aspect in there, but it's it's fundamentally about trying to drive also the engagement of their own teams and because now they're doing something for good, and many organizations are trying to do that. But you only can do this kind of things in a limited way. And so you really want to start to rethink? Oh, you connect everybody kind of business objective fruit data. And I always start to get people to stare at the same data from their own lands and collaborating on the data. Right? >>Right. That's good. Uh, Tom, I want to go back to you. You've been studying I t for a long time writing lots of books and and getting into it. Um, Why now? You know what? Why now? Are we finally aligning business objectives with objects? You know, why didn't this happen before? And, you know, what are the factors that are making now? The time for this. This this move with the with the biz ops. >>Well, in much of the past, I t waas sort of a back office related activity. You know, it was important for, um, producing your paychecks and, uh, capturing the customer orders, but the business wasn't built around it. Now, every organization needs to be a software business of data business. A digital business. The anti has been raised considerably. And if you aren't making that connection between your business objectives and the technology that supports it. You run a pretty big risk of, you know, going out of business or losing out to competitors. Totally so. And even if you're in a new industry that hasn't historically been terribly, um, technology oriented customer expectations flow from, you know, the digital native companies that they work with to basically every industry. So you're compared against the best in the world. So we don't really have the luxury anymore of screwing up our I T projects or building things that don't really work for the business. Um, it's mission critical that we do that well, almost every time, >>right. And I just I just wanna fall by that time, in terms of the you've talked extensively about kind of these evolutions of data analytics, from artisanal stage to the big data stage, the data economy stage the ai driven stage. What I find interesting about all the stages you always put a start date. You never put it in date. Um, so you know, is the is the big data. I'm just gonna use that generically moment in time. Finally, here. Where were, you know, off mahogany row with the data scientists, But actually could start to see the promise of delivering the right insight to the right person at the right time to make that decision. >>Well, I think it is true that in general, these previous stages never seem to go away. The three artisanal stuff is still being done, but we would like for less and less of it to be artisanal. We can't really afford for everything to be artisanal anymore. It's too labor and time consuming to do things that way. So we shift Mawr and Mawr of it to be done through automation and be to be done with a higher level of productivity. And, um, you know, at some point maybe we we reached the stage where we don't do anything artisanal e anymore. I'm not sure we're there yet, but, you know, we are We are making progress, >>right? Right. And make back to you in terms of looking at agile because you're you're such a student of agile. When when you look at the opportunity with biz ops, um, and taking the lessons from agile, you know what's been the inhibitor to stop this in the past. And what are you so excited about? you know, taking this approach will enable >>Yeah, I think both surgeon Tom hit on this. Is that in agile? What's happened is that we've been, you know, measuring tiny subsets of the value stream, right? We need to elevate the data's there, developers air working on these tools of delivering features. The foundations for for great culture are there. I spent two decades as a developer, and when I was really happy when I was able to deliver value to customers, the quicker is able to do that. The fewer impediments are in my way, the quicker was deployed and running the cloud, the happier I waas and that's exactly what's happening if we could just get the right data elevated to the business, not just to the agile teams, but really these values of ours are to make sure that you've got these data driven decisions with meaningful data that's oriented and delivering value to customers. None of these legacies that Tom touched on, which has cost center metrics from a nightie, came from where for I t being a cost center and something that provided email on back office systems. So we need thio rapidly shift to those new, meaningful metrics, their customer and business centric. And make sure that every development organization is focused on those as well as the business itself that we're measuring value. And they were helping that value flow without interruption. >>I love that because if you don't measure it, you can't improve on it. And you gotta but you gotta be measuring the right thing. So, gentlemen, thank you again for for your time. Uh, congratulations on the on the unveil of the biz ops manifesto and bringing together this coalition of industry experts to get behind this. And, you know, there's probably never been a more important time than now to make sure that your prioritization is in the right spot. And you're not wasting resource is where you're not gonna get the r. O. I. So, uh, congratulations again. And thank you for sharing your thoughts with us here on the Cube. Thank >>you. All >>right, So we have surged. Tom and Mick. I'm Jeff. You're watching the Cube. It's a biz ops manifesto unveiled. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. Yeah,

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of biz ops Manifesto unveiled Brought to you by Biz Ops Coalition >>Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeffrey here with the Q. Come to you from our Palo Alto studios today for a big big reveal. We're excited to be here. It's the biz. Opps manifesto, unveiling things been in the works for a while and we're excited. Have our next guest one of the really the powers behind this whole effort. And he's joining us from Boston. It's surge Lucio, the vice president and general manager Enterprise software division that Broadcom Serge, Great to see you. >>Good to see. Oh, absolutely. So you've been >>in this business for a very long time? You've seen a lot of changes in technology. What is the biz Ops manifesto? What is this coalition all about? Why do we need this today in in 2020? >>Yeah, so? So I've been in this business for close to 25 years, writes about 25 years ago, the agile manifesto was created, and the goal of the actual manifesto was was really to address the uncertainty around software development and the inability to predict the effort to build software. And if you if you roll that kind of 20 years later and if you look at the current state of the industry, the Product Project Management Institute estimates that we're wasting about a million dollars every 20 seconds in digital transformation initiatives that do not deliver on business results. In fact, we we recently served, uh, the number of executives in partnership with Harvard Business Review and 77% off. Those executives think that one of the key challenges that they have is really at the collaboration between business and I t. And that that's been kind of a case for almost 20 years now. Eso the key challenge we're faced with is really that we need a new approach. And many of the players in the industry, including ourselves, have been using different terms. Right? Some are. We are talking about value stream management. Some are talking about software delivery management. If you look at the site reliability engineering movement, in many ways it embodies a lot of this kind of concepts and principles. So we believe that it became really imperative for us to crystallize around kind of one concept and so In many ways, the Bezos concept and the bazaars manifesto are out, bringing together a number of ideas which have been emerging in the last five years or so and defining the key values and principles to finally helped these organizations truly transform and become digital businesses. And so the hope is that by joining our forces and defining kind of key principles and values, we can help kind of the industry not just by, you know, providing them with support, but also tools and consulting that is required for them to truly achieve that kind of transformation, that everybody's >>right, right? So co vid Now we're six months into it, approximately seven months into it. Um, a lot of pain, a lot of bad stuff still happening. We've got a ways to go. But one of the things that on the positive side, right and you've seen all the memes and social media is a driver of digital transformation and a driver of change. Because we have this light switch moment in the middle of March and there was no more planning, there was no more conversation. You suddenly got remote. Workforce is everybody's working from home, and you gotta go, right, So the reliance on these tools increases dramatically. But I'm curious, you know, kind of short of the beginnings of this effort and short of kind of covert, which, you know, came along unexpectedly. I mean, what were those inhibitors? Because we've been making software for a very long time. Write the software development community has has adopted kind of rapid change and and iterative delivery and and sprints what was holding back the connection with the business side to make sure that those investments were properly aligned with outcomes. >>Well, so So that you have to understand that I ts is kind of its own silos. And traditionally it has been treated as a cost center within large organizations and not as a value center. And so as a result, kind of the traditional dynamic between the I t. And the business is basically one of a kind of supplier to to kind of a business on. Do you know if you could go back? Thio? I think Elon Musk a few years ago, basically, at these concepts, off the machines to build the machines and you went as far as saying that the machines or the production line is actually the product, so meaning that the core of the innovation is really about building kind of the engine to deliver on the value. And so, in many ways, way have missed on this shift from, um, kind of I t becoming this kind of value center within the enterprises and any told about culture now culture is is the sum total of behaviors and the realities that if you look at the i t, especially in the last decade with the agile with develops with hybrid infrastructures, it's it's way more volatile today than it was 10 years ago. And so the when you start to look at the velocity of the data, the volume of data, the variety of data to analyze kind of the system, um, it's very challenging for I t. To actually even understand and optimize its own processes, let alone to actually include business as kind of an integral part of kind of a delivery chain. And so it's both kind of a combination off culture which is required a za well as tools, right to be able to start to bring together all these data together and then given the volume variety velocity of the data. We have to apply some core technologies which have only really, truly emerging last 5 to 10 years around machine learning and knowledge. And so it's really kind of a combination of those freaks which are coming together today. Truly, organizations get to the next level, >>right? Right. So let's talk about the manifesto. Let's talk about the coalition, the Biz Ops Coalition. I just like that you put down these really simple you know, kind of straightforward core values. You guys have four core values that you're highlighting, you know, business outcomes over individual projects and outputs, trust and collaboration over side load teams and organizations, data driven decisions. What you just talked about, you know, over opinions and judgment on learned, responded Pivot. I mean, surgery sounds like pretty basic stuff, right? I mean, aren't isn't everyone working to these values already? And I think you touched on it on culture, right? Trust and collaboration, data driven decisions. I mean, these air fundamental ways that people must run their business today or the person that's across the street that's doing it is gonna knock him right off the block. >>Yeah, so that's very true. But so I'll mention the novel survey. We need, uh, think about six months ago and twist in partnership with an industry analyst, and we serve it again. The number of 80 executives to understand how many were tracking business outcomes somebody you have, the software executives I T executives were tracking business outcomes, and the there were. Less than 15% of these executives were actually tracking the outcomes of the software delivery. And you see that every day, right? So in my own teams, for instance, we've bean adopting a lot of these core principles in the last year or so, and we've uncovered that 16% of our resource is we're basically aligned around initiatives which were not strategic for us. I take, you know, another example. For instance, one of our customers in the airline industry uncovered, for instance, that a number of that they had software issues that led to people searching for flights and not returning any kind of availability. And yet, you know, the I T teams whether its operations software involvement were completely oblivious to that because they were completely blindsided to it. And so the connectivity between the in words metrics that Turkey is using, whether it's database I, time cycle, time or whatever metric we use in I t are typically completely divorced from the business metrics. And so at its core, it's really about starting to align the business metrics with with the the software delivered change. Right, this, uh, this system, which is really a core differentiator for these organizations. It's about connecting those two things and and starting Thio infuse some of the actual culture and principles. Um, that's emerged from the software side into the business side. Of course, the lien movement and over movements have started to change some of these dynamics on the business side. And and so I think this thesis is the moment where we were starting to see kind of the imperative to transform. Now Cuvee the obviously has been a key driver for that. The the technology is right to start to be able to leave data together and really kind of also the cultural shifts through agile fruit develops through the SRE movement, fueling business transformation. All of these things are coming together and that are really creating kind of conditions. For the Bezos Manifesto to exist. >>So, uh, Clayton Christensen, great hard professor innovator's dilemma might still my all time favorite business books, you know, talks about how difficult it is for in comments to react to to disruptive change, right, because they're always working on incremental change because that's what their customers are asking for. And there's a good our ally when you talk about, you know, companies not measuring the right thing. I mean, clearly, I t has some portion of their budget that has to go to keeping the lights on, right, that that's always the case. But hopefully that's a an ever decreasing percentage of their total activity. So, you know what should people be measuring? I mean, what are kind of the new metrics? Um, in biz ops that drive people to be looking at the right things, measuring the right things and subsequently making the right decisions investment decisions on whether they should do, you know, move Project a along or Project B. >>So there are really two things, right? So So I think what you are talking about this portfolio management, investment management, right and which, which is a key challenge, right in my own experience, right driving strategy or large scale kind of software organization for years. It's very difficult to even get kind of a base data as to who is doing what. Uh, I mean, some of our largest customers were engaged with right now are simply trying to get a very simple answer, which is how many people do I have, and that specific initiative at any point in time and just tracking that information is extremely difficult. So and and again, back to Product Project Management Institute, they have estimated that on average, I two organizations have anywhere between 10 to 20% of their resource is focused on initiatives which are not strategically aligned. So so that's one dimensional portfolio management. I think the key aspect, though that we are we're really keen on is really around kind of the alignment of the business metrics to the ICTY metrics eso I'll use kind of two simple examples, right and my background is around quality and I have always believed that fitness for purpose is really kind of a key, um, a philosophy, if you will. And so if you start to think about quality is fitness for purpose, you start to look at it from a customer point of view, right? And fitness for purpose for core banking application or mobile application are different, right? So the definition of a business value that you're trying to achieve is different on DSO the And yet if you look at our I t operations are operating there are using kind of the same type of kind of inward metrics like a database off time or a cycle time or what is my point? Velocity, right? And s o the challenge really is this inward facing metrics that the I t. Is using which are divorced from ultimately the outcome. And so, you know, if I'm if I'm trying to build a poor banking application, my core metric is likely going to be up time, right? If I'm if I'm trying to build a mobile application or maybe a social mobile app, it's probably going to be engagement. And so what you want is for everybody across I t to look at these metric and what part of the metrics withing the software delivery chain which ultimately contribute to that business metric in some cases, cycle time, maybe completely relevant. Right again. My core banking up. Maybe I don't care about cycle time. And so it's really about aligning those metrics and be able to start to differentiate. Um, the key challenge you mentioned around the around the disruption that we see is or the investors is. Dilemma now is really around the fact that many idea organizations are essentially applying the same approaches for innovation right for basically scrap work, Then they would apply to kind of over more traditional projects. And so, you know, there's been a lot of talk about to speed I t. And yes, it exists. But in reality are are really organizations truly differentiating out of the operate their their projects and products based on the outcomes that they're trying to achieve? And and this is really where bizarre is trying to affect. >>I love that. You know, again, it doesn't seem like brain surgery, but focus on the outcomes right and and it's horses for courses. As you said this project, you know what you're measuring and how you define success isn't necessarily the same as it is on this other project. So let's talk about some of the principles we talked about the values, but you know I think it's interesting that that that the bishops coalition, you know, just basically took the time to write these things down, and they don't seem all that super insightful. But I guess you just got to get him down and have them on paper and have it in front of your face. But I want to talk about, you know, one of the key ones which you just talked about, which is changing requirements right and working in a dynamic situation, which is really what's driven. You know this, the software to change and software development because, you know, if you're in a game app and your competitors comes out with a new blue sword, you've got to come out with a new blue swords. So whether you have that on your compound wall, we're not. So it's It's really this embracing of the speed of change and and and making that you know the rule, not the exception. I think that's a phenomenon. And the other one you talked about his data right and that today's organizations generate more data than humans can process. So informed decisions must be generated by machine learning and ai and you know and the big data thing with a dupe you know, started years ago. But we are seeing more and more that people are finally figuring it out that it's not just big data on It's not even generic machine learning artificial intelligence. But it's applying those particular data sets and that particular types of algorithms to a specific problem to your point, to try to actually reach an objective. Whether that's, you know, increasing the your average ticket or, you know, increasing your check out rate with with with shopping carts that don't get left behind and these types of things. So it's a really different way to think about the world in the good old days, probably when you got started, when we had big Giant you know, M R D s and P R. D s and sat down and coded for two years and and came out with a product release and hopefully not too many patches subsequently to that. Yeah, >>it's interesting right again, back to one of these service that we did with about 600 the ICTY executives and we we purposely designed those questions to be pretty open. Andi and one of them was really wrong requirements, and it was really around. Kind of. What is the best approach? What is your preferred approach towards requirements? And if I remember correctly, Over 80% of the ICTY executives said that the best approach their preferred approach is for requires to be completely defined before self for the bombing starts, let me pause there. We're 20 years after the agile manifesto, right, and for 80% of these idea executives to basically claimed that the best approach is for requires to be fully baked before solved before software development starts basically shows that we still have a very major issue again. Our apotheosis in working with many organizations is that the key challenges really the boundary between business and I t. Which is still very much contract based. If you look at the business side, they basically are expecting for I t deliver on time on budget, Right? But what is the incentive for I t to actually deliver on the business outcomes, right? How often is I t measured on the business outcomes and not on S L. A or on a budget secretary, and so that that's really the fundamental shift that we need to. We really need to drive up to send industry andi way. Talk about kind of this dis imperative for organizations to operate. That's one. And back to the, you know, various doors still, Um, no. The key difference between these large organization is really kind of a. If you look at the amount of capital investment that they can put into pretty much anything, why are they losing compared Thio? You know, startups. What? Why is it that more than 40% off personal loans today are issued not by your traditional brick and mortar banks, but by start ups? Well, the reason, Yes, it's the traditional culture of doing incremental changes, not disrupting ourselves, which Christenson covered at length. But it's also the inability to really fundamentally change kind of dynamic between business I t and partner, right, to to deliver on a specific business. All >>right, I love that. That's a great That's a great summary and in fact, getting ready for this interview. I saw you mentioning another thing where you know the problem with the agile development is that you're actually now getting mawr silos because you have all these autonomous people working you know, kind of independently. So it's even harder challenge for for the business leaders toe, as you said to know what's actually going on. But But, sir, I want to close um, and talk about the coalition eso clearly These are all great concepts, these air concepts. You want to apply to your business every day. Why the coalition? Why, you know, take these concepts out to a broader audience, including your competition and the broader industry to say, Hey, we as a group need to put a stamp of approval on these concepts. These values these principles. It's >>so first, I think we we want everybody to realize that we are all talking about the same things, the same concepts e think we were all from our own different vantage point, realizing that things have to change and again back to you know, whether it's value stream management or site reliability, engineering or biz Opps we're all kind of using slightly different languages on DSO. I think one of the important aspects of these apps is for us, all of us, whether we're talking about consulting actual transformation experts, whether we're talking about vendors right to provide sort of tools and technologies or these larger enterprises to transform for all of us to basically have kind of a reference that lets us speak around kind of in a much more consistent way. The second aspect is for to me is for these concepts to start to be embraced not just by us or trying or vendors, um, system integrators, consulting firms, educators, spot leaders but also for some of our own customers to start to become evangelists of their own in the industry. So we are. Our objective with the coalition is to be pretty, pretty broad, Um, and our hope is by by starting to basically educate our joint customers or our partners that we can start to really foster disbelievers and and start to really change some of dynamics. So we're very pleased that if you look at what some of the companies which have joined the the manifesto eso, we have vendors such as stashed up or advance or pager duty, for instance, or even planned you one of my direct competitors but also fought leaders like Tom Davenport or or Cap Gemini or smaller firms like Business Agility Institute or Agility Elf on DSO our goal really is to start to bring together. For three years, people have bean LP. Large organizations do digital transformation. Vendors were providing the technologies that many of these organizations used to deliver all these digital transformation and for all of us to start to provide the kind of education, support and tools that the industry need. >>That's great search. And, you know, congratulations to you and the team. I know this has been going on for a while putting all this together, getting people to sign onto the manifesto of putting the coalition together and finally today getting to unveil it to the world in a little bit more of a public opportunity. So again, you know, really good values, really simple principles, something that that shouldn't have to be written down. But it's nice because it is. And now you can print it out and stick it on your wall. So thank you for for sharing the story. And again, congrats to you on the team. >>Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it. >>My pleasure. Alright, He surge If you wanna learn more about the bizarre manifesto goto biz Opps manifesto dot or greed it and you can sign it and you can stay here from or coverage on. The Cube of the bizarre manifesto unveiled. Thanks for watching. See you next time.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of biz ops Manifesto unveiled. Brought to you by Biz Ops Coalition >>Hey, welcome back Variety. Jeff Freak here with the Cube were Palo Alto studios. And we like to welcome you back to our continuing coverage of biz. Opps manifesto. Unveil. Exciting day to really, uh, kind of bring this out into public. There's been a little bit of conversation, but today is really the official unveiling, and we're excited to have our next guest to share a little bit more information on it. He's Patrick Tickle. He's a chief product officer for plan view. Patrick, great to see you. Yeah, it's great to be here. Thanks for the invite. So why the biz? Opps manifesto? Why the bizarre coalition? Now, when you guys have been added, it's relatively mature marketplace. Business is good. What was missing? Why? Why this? Why this coalition? >>Yeah, so you know, again, Why? Why is bizarre is important. And why is this something I'm you know, I'm so excited about, but I think companies as well, right? Well, no. In some ways or another, this is a topic that I've been talking to you know the market in our customers about for a long time. And it's, you know, I really applaud, you know, this whole movement, right? And, um, it resonates with me because I think one of the fundamental flaws, frankly, of the way we have talked about technology and business literally for decades has been this idea of alignment. Those who know me, I occasionally get off on this little rant about the word alignment. Right? But to me, the word alignment is actually indicative of the of the of the flaw in a lot of our organizations. And biz ops is really, I think, now, trying to catalyze and expose that flaw, right? Because, you know, I I always say that, you know, you know, alignment implies silos right the instantaneously with soon as you say, there's alignment. There's there's obviously somebody who's got a direction and other people that have tow line up and that that kind of siloed, uh, nature of organizations. And then, frankly, the passive nature of I think so many technology organizations like look, the business has the strategy. You guys need to align right and and, you know, is a product leader right that's what I've been my whole career, right? I can tell you that I never sit around. I almost never used the word alignment, right. I mean, whether you know, I never sit down and say, you know, the product management team has to get aligned with death, right? Or the Dev team has to get aligned with the delivery and ops teams. I mean, what I say is, are we on strategy? Right? Like we have a strategy, a zey full end to end value stream, right, and that there's no silos, and I mean, look, every on any given day, we got to get better, right? But the context, the context we operate is not about alignment, right? It's about being on strategy. And I think I've talked to customers a lot about that. But when I first read the manifesto, I was like, Oh, you know, this is exactly this. Is breaking down maybe trying to eliminate the word alignment, you know, from a lot of our organizations, because we literally start thinking about one strategy and how we go from strategy to delivery and have it be our strategy, not someone else's, that we're all aligning to it. And it's a great way to catalyze. You know, that conversation that I've It's been in my mind for years, to be honest, >>right? So, so much to unpack there. One of the things, obviously, uh, stealing a lot from from Dev Ops and the Dev Ops manifesto from 20 years ago. And and as I looked through some of the principles and I looked through some of the values which are, you know, really nicely laid out here, you know, satisfied customers do continues delivery, uh, measure output against riel results. Um, the ones that that jumps out that was really about, you know, change change, right requirements should change frequently. They do change frequently, but I'm curious to get your take from A from a software development point. It's easy to kind of understand, right? We're making this widget, and our competitors made a widget plus X, and now we need to change our plans and make sure that the plus X gets added to the plan. Maybe it wasn't in the plan. You talked a lot about product strategy. So in this kind of continuous delivery world, how does that meld with? I'm actually trying to set a strategy which implies a direction for a little bit further out on the horizon. And to stay on that while at the same time you're kind of doing this real time, continual adjustments because you're not working off a giant PRD or M R d anymore. Yeah, >>totally. Yeah. You know, one of the terms you know, that we use internally a lot on even with my customers, our customers is we talked about this idea rewiring right, and I think you know. So it's kind of an analogy for transformation, and I think a lot of us have to rewire the way we think about things right. And I think it planned view where we have a lot of customers who live in that you know who operationalized that traditional ppm world right and are shifting toe agile and transforming that rewire super important and and to your point right, it's You've just you've got to embrace this idea of, you know, just iterative getting better every day and iterating iterating iterating as opposed to building annual plans. Or, you know, I get customers occasionally. Who asked me for two or three year roadmap right and I literally looked at them and I go There is No There is no scenario where I could build a two or three year roadmap. Right? You you think you want that? But that's not That's not the way we run, right. And I will tell you the biggest thing that for us, you know, that I think is matched the planning. You know, impedance is a word I like to use a lot. So the thing that we've like that we've done from a planning perspective, I think is matched impedance to continuous delivery is instituting the whole program. Implement the program in current planning capabilities and methodologies. Um, in the scaled, agile world, right. And over the last 18 months to two years, we really have now, you know, instrumented our company across three value streams. You know, we do Corley p I program increment 10 week planning, you know, And that becomes that becomes the terra firma of how we plan, right? And it's what are we doing for the next 10 weeks? And we iterated within those 10 weeks. But we also know that 10 weeks from now we're gonna we're gonna just generate again, right and that shifting of that planning model, you know, to being is cross functional. Is that as that big room planning kind of model is, um and also, you know, on that shorter increments. Um, when you get those two things in place also, the impedance really starts to match up with continuous delivery, and it changes. It changes the way you plan. And it changes the way you work, right? >>The other thing. Right. So obviously a lot of these things are kind of process driven both within the values as well as the principles. But there's a whole lot really about culture, and I just wanna highlight a couple of the values, right? We already talked about business outcomes, um, trust and collaboration, a data driven decisions and then learned responded Pivot, right. A lot of those air cultural as much as they are processed. So again, is that the Is that the need to really kind of just put them down on paper? And you know, e can't help but think of, you know, the hammer and up the thing in the Lutheran church with it with their manifesto. Is it just good to get it down? on paper, because when you read these things, you're like, Well, of course we should trust people. And, of course, we need an environment of collaboration. And, of course, we want data driven decisions. But as we all know, saying it and living it are two very, very different things. >>Yeah, good question. I mean, I think there's a lot of ways to bring that to life. You're right. And just hanging up. You know, I think we've all been through the hanging up posters around your office, which these days, right, Unless you're gonna hang a poster and everybody's home office, right, you can't even you can't even fake it that you think that might work, right? So, um, you know, you really, I think we have attacked that in a variety of ways, right? And you definitely have to, you know, you've got to make the shift to a team centric culture, right? Empowered teams. You know, that's a big deal, right? You know, a lot of a lot of the people that you know, we lived in a world of unquote where we lived in a deep resource management world for a long, long time and write a lot of our customers still do that, but, you know, kind of moving to that team centric world is eyes really important and court of the trust. I think training is super important, right? We've, you know, we've internally, right. We've trained hundreds employees over the last year and a half on the fundamentals. Really of safe, right? Not necessarily. You know, we've had we've had teams delivering and scrum and continuous delivery for, you know, for years. But this scaling aspect of it eyes where we've done a lot of training investment on Ben. You know, I think leadership has to be bought in, right, you know? And so we p I plan, you know, myself and camera and the other members are leadership, you know, we're in p I planning, you know, for for four days, right? I mean, you've gotta walk the walk, you know, from top to bottom. And you've got a train on the context, right? And then you and then and then once you get through a few cycles where you've done a pivot, right or you brought a new team in and it just works, it becomes kind of this virtuous circle where people go. Man, this really works so much better than what we used to dio, >>right? Right. Theater Really key principle to this whole thing is is aligning the business leaders and the business prioritization s so that you can get to good outcomes with the development and and the delivery, right? And we know again and kind of classic dev ops to get the Dev and the production people together so they can, you know, quickly ship code that works. Um, but adding the business person on there really puts puts a little extra responsibility that they they understand the value of a particular feature, a particular priority. Uh, they can make the trade offs and that they kind of understand the effort involved too. So, you know, bringing them into this continuous again kind of this continuous development process, Um, to make sure that things were better aligned and really better Prioritize, because ultimately, you know, we don't live in an infinite resource is situation and and people got to make tradeoffs. They gotta make decisions, is toe what goes and what doesn't go on for everything that goes right. I always say you pick one thing Okay, that's 99 other things that couldn't go. So it's really important to have you know, this you said alignment of the business priorities as well as you know, the execution within. Within the development. >>Yeah, I think that, you know, You know, I think it was probably close to two years ago, Forrester started talking about the age of the customer, right? That was like their big theme at the time, right? And I think to me what that the age of the customer actually translates to. And Mick, Mick and I are both big fans of this whole idea of the project. The product shift mixed book, you know, is a great piece on your talking assed part of the manifesto is one of the authors as well. But this shift from project to product, right? Like the age of the customer, in my opinion, the mhm, the embodiment that is the shift to a product mentality, right? And? And the product mentality, in my opinion, is what brings the business and technology teams together, right? Once, once you're focused on a customer experience is delivered through a product or service. That's when I That's when I start to go. The alignment problem goes away. Right? Because if you look at software companies, right, I mean, we run product management models with software development teams, customer success teams, right? That, you know, the software component of these products that people are building is obviously becoming bigger and bigger, you know, and in many ways, right. More more organizations, air trying to model themselves over as operationally like software companies, Right? They obviously have lots of other components in their business than just software. But I think that whole model of customer experience equaling product and then the software component of product the product is the essence of what changes that alignment equation and brings business and teams together. Because also, everyone knows what the customers experiencing, right, And that that that makes a lot of things very clear very quick, >>right? I'm just curious how far along this was as a process before, before Cove, it hit right, because serendipitous. Whatever. Right? But the sudden, you know, light switch moment. Everybody had to go work from home in March 15th. Compared to now, we're in October on. This is gonna be going on for a while and it is a new normal and whatever that whatever is gonna look like a year from now or two years from now is T v D. You know, had you guys already started on this journey because again, to sit down and actually declare this coalition and declare this manifesto is a lot different than just trying to do better within your own organization. Yeah, >>So we had started, you know, we definitely had started independently. You know, some some. You know, I think people in the community know that we we came together with a company called Link It Handful years ago. And I give John Terry, actually one of the founders link it immense credit for, you know, kind of spearheading our cultural change. And not and not because of we're just gonna be, you know, bringing agile solutions to our customers. But because, you know, he believed that it was gonna be a fundamentally better way for us to work, right. And we kind of, you know, and we started with John and built, you know, centric circles, momentum. And we've gotten to the place where now it's just part of who we are, but but I do think that you know, Cove it has. You know, I think pre Cove in a lot of companies, you know, would would adopt, you know, the would adopt digital slash agile transformation. Um, traditional industries may have done it as a reaction to disruption. Right, You know, And in many cases, though, the disruption to these traditional industries was, I would say, a product oriented company, right that probably had a larger software component, and that disruption caused a competitive issue or a customer issue that cause companies to try to respond by transforming. I think co vid, you know, all sudden flatten that out, right? We literally all got disrupted, right? And and so all of a sudden, every one of us is dealing with some degree of market uncertainty customer uncertainty on doll. So none of us are insulated from the need to be able to pivot faster, deliver incrementally, you know, and operating a different, completely more agile way. Uh, you know, Post Cove it right? >>Yeah, that's great. So again, very, very, very timely. You know, a little bit of serendipity, a little bit of planning and, you know, a zoo with all important things There's always a little bit of locking a a lot of hard work involved. So really interesting. Thank you for for your leadership, Patrick. And, you know, it really makes a statement. I think when you have a bunch of leaderships across an industry coming together and putting their name on a piece of paper, that's a line around us, um, principles and some values, which again, if you read them, who wouldn't want to get behind these? But if it takes, you know, something a little bit more formal, uh, to kind of move the ball down the field, and then I totally get it. And, uh, really great work. Thanks for Thanks for doing it. >>Oh, absolutely. No. Like I said, the first time I read it, I was like, Yeah, like you said, this is all this all makes complete sense, but just documenting it and saying it and talking about it moves the needle. I'll tell you, as a company, we were pushing really hard on, uh, you know, on our own internal strategy on diversity inclusion, right. And and like once we wrote the words down About what? You know what we aspire to be from a diversity and inclusion perspective. It's the same thing. Everybody reads the words and goes, Why wouldn't we do this right? But until you write it down and kind of have again, you know, a manifesto or a terra firma of what you're trying to accomplish, you know, Then you can rally behind right, as opposed to it being, you know, something that's everybody's got their own version of the flavor, right? And I think it's a very analogous, you know, kind of initiative. And, uh, it's happening. Both of those things right are happening across the industry these days, >>right and measure it to write and measure it. Measure, measure, get a baseline even if you don't like the measure, even if you don't like what the Even if you can argue against the math behind the measurement, measure it, and at least you could measure it again. And you've got some type of a compound that is really the only way toe to move it forward with. Patrick really enjoyed the conversation. Thanks for for taking a few minutes out of your day. It's great to >>be here. It's an awesome movement, and we're glad to be part of it. All >>right. Thanks. And if you want to check out the biz ops manifesto goto biz Opps manifesto dot org's read it. You might want to sign it there for you. And thanks for tuning in on this segment. We'll continuing coverage of the bizarre manifesto unveiled here on the Cube. I'm Jeff. Thanks for watching.

>> Live from San Jose in the heart of Silicon Valley, it's the Cube. Covering Dataworks Summit 2018 brought to you by Hortonworks. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back to The Cube's live coverage of Dataworks here in San Jose, California. I'm your host Rebecca Knight along with my co-host James Kobielus. We're joined by Peter Smails. He is the vice president of marketing at Imanis Data. Thanks so much for coming on The Cube. >> Thanks for having me, glad to be here. >> So you've been in the data storage solution industry for a long time, but you're new to Imanis, what made you jump? What was it about Imanis? >> Yep, so very easy to answer that. It's a hot market. So essentially what Imanis all about is we're an enterprise data management company. So the reason I jumped here is because if I put it in market context, if I take a small step back, I put it in market context, here's what happening. You've got your traditional application world, right? On prem typically already a mas based applications, that's the old world. New world is everybody's moving to the microservices based applications for IOT, for customer 360, for customer analysis, whatever you want. They're building these new modern applications. They're building those applications not in traditional RDMS, they're building them on microservices based architectures built on top of FEDOOP, or built on sequel databases. Those applications, as they go mainstream, and they go into production environments, they require data management. They require backup. They require backup and recovery. They require disaster recovery. They require archiving, etc. They require the whole plethora of data management capabilities. Nobody's touching that market. It's a blue ocean. So, that's why I'm here. >> Imanis as you were saying is one of the greatest little company no one's ever heard of. You've been around five years. (laughter) >> No, the company is not new. So, the thing that's exciting as a marketeer, what's exciting is that we're not sort of out there just pitching our wears untested technology. We have blue chip, we're getting into customers that people would die to get into. Big, blue chip companies because we're addressing a problem that's materialist. They roll out these new applications, they've got to have data management solutions for them. The company's been around five years. And I've only been on about a month, but what that's resulted is that over the last five years what they've had the opportunity, it's an enterprise product. And you don't build an enterprise product overnight. So they've had the last five years to really gestate the platform, gestate the technology, prove it in real world scenarios. And now, the opportunity for us as as a company is we're doubling down from a marketing standpoint. We're doubling down from the sales infrastructure standpoint. So the timing's right to essentially put this thing on the map, make sure everybody does know exactly what we do. Because we're solving a real world problem. >> Your backup and restore but much more. When you lay out the broad set of enterprise data and management capabilities, the mana state currently supports in your product portfolio on where you're going, on how you're going in terms of evolving in what you offer. >> Yeah, that's great. I love that question. So, think of us as the platform itself is this highly scalable distributed architecture. Okay, so we scale on multiple, and I'll come directly to your question. We scale on a number of different ways. One is we're infinitely scalable just in terms of computational power. So we're built for big data by definition. Number two is we're very, we scale very well from a storage efficiency standpoint. So we can store very large volumes of storage, which is a requirement. We also scale very much for the use case standpoint. So we support use cases throughout the life cycle. The one that gets all sort of the attention is obviously backup recovery. Because you have to protect your data. But if I look at it from a life cycle standpoint, our number use case is Test Def. So a lot of these organizations building these new apps now they want to spin up subsets of their data, cause they're supporting things like CICD. Okay, so they want to be able to do rapid testing and such. >> Develop Dev Opps and stuff like that. >> Yeah, Dev Opps and so worth. So, they need Test Def. So we help them automate the process and orchestrate the process of Test Def. Supporting things like sampling. I may have a one petabyte dataset, I'm not going to do Test Def against that. I want to do 10 percent of that and spin that up, and I want to do some masking of personal, PII data. So we can do masking and sampling against that Sport Test Def. We do backup and recovery. We do disaster recovery. So some customers, particularly in the big data space, they may for now say, well, I have replica so for some of this data it's not permanent data, it's transient data, but I do care about DR. So, DR is a key use case. We also do archiving. So if you just think of data through the life cycle, we support all of those. The piece in terms of where we're going is that what's truly unique, in addition to everything I just mentioned, is that we're the only data management platform that's machine learning based. Okay, so machine learning gets a lot of attention, and all that type of stuff, but we're actually delivering machine learning and abled capabilities today, so. >> And we discussed this before this interview. There's a bit of an anomaly detection. How exactly are you using machine learning? What value does it provide to a enterprise data administrator? They have ML inside your tool. >> Inside our platform, Great question. Very specifically, the product we're delivering today essentially there's a capability in the product called threat sets. Okay, so the number one use cases I mentioned is backup and recovery. So within backup and recovery, threat sense, what it will do with no user intervention whatsoever, what it will do is it will analyze your backups, as they go forward. And what it will do is it will learn what a normal pattern looks like across like 50 different metrics. The details of which I couldn't give you right now. But essentially, a whole bunch of different metrics that we look at to establish this is what a normal baseline looks like for you or for you, kind of thing. Great, that's number one. Number two is then we look and constantly analyze is anything occurring that is knocking things outside of that? Creating an anomaly, does something fall outside of that, and when it does, we're notifying the administrators. You might want to look at this, something could've happened. So the value very specifically is around ransomware typically one of the ways you're going to detect ransomware is you will see an anomaly in your backup set, because your data set will change materially. So we will be able to tell you, >> Cause somebody's holding for ransom is what you're saying. >> Correct, so something's going to happen in your data pattern. >> You've lost data that should be there, or whatever it might be. >> Correct, it could be that you lost data. Your change rate went way up, or something. >> Yeah, gotcha. >> There's any number of things that could trigger it. And then we let the administrator know, it happened here. So today we don't then turn around and just automatically solve that. But your point about where we're going. We've already broken the ice on delivering machine learning and abled data management. >> That might indicate you want to check point your backups to like a few days before this was detected. So the least you have, you know what data is most likely missing, so yeah, I understand. >> Bingo, that's exactly right now where we're going with that. As you could imagine, having a machine learning power data management platform at our core, how many different ways we can go with that. When do I backup? What data do I backup? How do I create the optimal RTO and IRPO? From a storage management standpoint, when do I put what data wear? There's all kinds of the whole library science of data management. The future of data management is machine learning based. There's too much data. There's too much complexity for humans to just be able to, you need to bring machine learning into the equation to help you harness the power of your data. We've broken the ice, we've got a long way to go. But we've got the platform to start with. And we've already introduced the first use case around this. And you can imagine all the places we can take this going forward. >> Very exciting. >> So you were the company that's using machine learning right now. What in your opinion will separate the winners from the losers? >> In terms of vendors, or in terms of the customers? >> Well, in terms of both. >> Yeah, let me answer that two ways. So, let me answer it sort of the inward/outward versus how we are unique. We are very unique, and since we're infinitely scalable, We are a single pane of glass for all of your distributed systems. We are very unique in terms of our multi-staged data reduction. And we're the only vendor that's doing, from a technology differentiation standpoint, we're the only vendor that's doing machine learning based stuff. >> Multi-stage data reduction, I want to break that down. What does that actually mean in practice? >> Sure, so we get the question frequently. Is that compression or duplication or is there something else in there? >> There's a couple different things actually. So why does that matter? So a lot of customers will ask a question, well by definition, no sequel or redo based environments, it's all based on replica, so how to back things up. First of all, replication isn't backup. So that's lesson number one. Point in time backup is very different than replication. Replication replicates bad data just as quickly as it replicates good. When you back up these very large data sets, you have to be incredibly efficient in how you do that. What we do with multi-stage data reduction is one, we will do de duplication, we'll do variable length, de duplication, we will do compression, we will do erasure coding, but the other thing that we'll also do in there, is what we call a global de plication pool. So when we're de duping your data, we're actually de duping it against a very large data set. So there's value in, this is where size matters. So the larger the data set, your data's all secured. But the larger the size of the data that I'm actually storing, the higher percentage I could get of de duplication. Because I've got a higher pool to reduce against. So the net result is we're incredibly efficient when you're talking about petabyte scale data management. We're incredibly efficient to the tune of 10 X easily 10 X over traditional de duplication, and multi X over technologies that are more current, if you will. So back to your question about, we are confident that we have a very strong head start. Our opportunity now is we got to drive why we're here. Cause we got to drive awareness. We got to make sure everybody knows who we are and how we're unique and how we're different. And you guys are great. Love being on The Cube. From a customer standpoint, the customers are going to win, and this is sort of a cliche, but it's true, the customer's the best harness of their data. They're the ones that are going to win. They're going to be more competitive, they're going to be able to find ways to be differentiated. And the only way they're going to do that is they're make the appropriate investments in their data infrastructure, in their data lakes, in their data management tool, so that they can harness all that data. >> Where do you see the future of your Hortonworks partnership going? So Hortonworks is, so we support a broad ecosystem. So, Hortonworks is just as important as any of our other data source partners. So, we are where we see that enfolding, is they're going to, we play an important part in, we feel our value, let me put it that way. We feel our value in helping Hortonworks, is as more and more organizations go mainstream with these applications. These are not corner cases anymore. This is not sort of in the lab. This is like the real deal. This is mainstream enterprises running business critical applications. The value we bring is you're not going to rely on those platforms without an enterprise data management solution that delivers what we deliver. So our value there is we can go to market, too. There's all kinds of ways we can go to market together. But net and that our value there is that we provide a very important enterprise data management capability that's important for customers that are deploying in these business critical environments. >> Great. >> Very good, as more of the data gets persisted out at the edge devices and the Internet of things, and so forth, what are the challenges in terms of protecting that data, backup and restore, de duplication, and so forth, and to what extent is your company's Imanis data maybe addressing those kinds of more distributed data management requirements going forward? Do you see that on the rise? Are you hearing that from customers? They want to do more of that? More of an edge cloud environment? Or is that way too far in the future? >> I don't think it's way too far in the future, but I do think there's an inside out. So my position on that is that it's not that there isn't edge work going on. What I would contend is that the big problem right now from an enterprise mainstreaming standpoint, is more getting the house is order, just your core house in order, from you move from sort of a traditional four wall data center to a hybrid cloud environment. Maybe not quite as edge. Combination of how do I leverage on prem and the cloud, so to speak. And how do I get the core data lake and the case of Hortonworks, how do I get that big data lake sorted out? You're touching on, I think, a longer discussion, which is where is the analysis going on? Where is the data going to persist? You know, where do you do some of that computational work? So you get all this information out at the edge. Does all that information end up going into the data lake? So, do you move the storage to where the lake is? Do you start pushing some of the lake functionale out to the edge where you have to then start doing some of the, so it's a much more complicated discussion. >> I know we had this discussion over lunch. This may be outside your wheelhouse, but let me just ask it anyway. We've seen more at Wikibon, I cover AI and distributed training and distributed inference and things so the edges are capturing the data and for more and more, there's a trend to where they're performing local training of their models, their embedded models, from the data they capture. But quite often, edge devices don't have a ton of storage and they're not going to retain that long. But some of that data will need to be archived. Will need to be persisted in a way and managed as a core resource, so we see that kind of requirement maybe not now, but in a few years time distributed training in persistence of that data, protection of that data, becoming a mainstream enterprise requirement. Where AI and machine learning, the whole pipeline is a concern. That's like I said, that's probably outside you guys wheelhouse. That's probably outside the realm for your customers But that kind of thing is coming out, as the likes of Hortonworks and IBM and everybody else, is starting to look at it and implement it, containerization of analytics and data management out to all these micro devices. >> Yes, and I think you're right there. And to your point about the, we're kind of going where the data is, if you will in volumes, kind of thing. And it's going that direction. And frankly, where we see that happening is, that's where the cloud plays a big role as well, because there's edge, but how do you get to the edge? You can get to the edge through the cloud. So, again, we run on AWS. We run on GCP, we run on Asher. So, to be clear, in terms of the data we can rotect, we got a broad portfolio, broad ecosystem of adute based big data, data sources that we support as well as no sequel. If they're running on AWS or GCP or Asher, we support ADLS, we support Asher's data lake stuff, HD Inside, we support a whole bunch of different things both from a cloud standpoint as on prem. Which is where we're seeing some of that edge work happening. >> Great, well Peter thank you so much for coming on The Cube. It's always a pleasure to have you on. >> Yes, thanks for having me and I look forward to being back sometime soon. >> We'll have you. >> Thank you both. >> When the time is right. >> Indeed, we will have more from The Cube's live coverage of Dataworks just after this. (upbeat music)