>> [Female VoiceOver] From the CUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with our leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. >> Hello and welcome to the CUBE conversation here in the Palo Alto studios, I'm John Furrier. Cloud Native News and industry coverage. There are two great guests here to break down what's going on in Cloud Native. we got Rancher Labs, Jim Sarale, Vice President of Global Channels and Alliances and Bryce Cracco Product Manager for NetApp HCI. Guys, thanks for coming on this breaking news around Cloud Native. I mean, this has been really all about Cloud Native for the past year and a half, but this year, certainly with the pandemic, the modern applications are being pushed out faster and faster. A lot of pressure. So congratulations on this announcement, Jim set us up. What is the News? I saw some articles, we've got a story get hit and SiliconANGLE. What's the news with NetApp with Rancher Labs? >> Yeah, thank you. And you're right, we are seeing a vast push with, with the crazy times that we're in right now, but the news really is, you know, Rancher formerly launching our OEM program and launching that with with our Marquee partner with NetApp, you know, when companies get to a certain juncture, you know, an OEM relationship and sometimes means just more of a marketing type relationship but as everybody knows, Rancher is, you know, one of the industry leading multicloud, multi Kubernetes cluster management solutions, open source. And you know, what that means is we're an agnostic play for, for those that are trying to leverage Kubernetes, we've talked with NetApp, we struck a deal with them for them to embed us on their HCI platform. And when you talk about our early in program and, and the things that it entails is really around, you know, how do you get contract vehicles to map go to market strategies? How do you get support, engineering, integration, development, all of those things align with partners. It's not an easy task. It's very important to the go to the kind of go to market strategy that we have. And I think, you know, not only with the market adoption around Kubernetes, Ranchers agnostic play in open source and then obviously, you know, Ranchers come a long way. Our products tried and true. We have nearly 500 customers. We're seeing those customers lean back into some of the OEMs and to the software vendors to have them do more and get them more, I guess, ready for the things that they're doing, an IT operations, how the have dev you know, the app DevOps folks are trying to do more and get applications to market faster. So we're really suited well for organizations like NetApp to take our technology bundle in it and really make it better for their customers experience. So the program allows for contract vehicles, direct integration, support, engineering, pricing, because not one size fits all. As you see the evolution from On-prem to cloud IoT Edge, a lot of different devices from 100s of dollars to 1000s. So Ranchers committed to making sure that we align our products and pricing to fit some of those low compute platforms and also be able to right size our business model to make them successful. >> Well, congratulations, I love the term OEM still kind of hangs around, I'm old enough to remember when it was actually equipment not software, original equipment manufacturer, which essentially, you're essentially letting NetApp embed your code into their equipment or their software. But this is the relationship of a channel and indirect channel for Rancher which you guys are launching, which is total validation. Appreciate that, I like to get into the NetApp side. Bryce, if you don't mind, because, you know, obviously cloud's not new to NetApp storage becoming more critical, hybrid clouds more important. Tell us about the transformation of HCI because I think this is where Kubernetes and it starts to fit in when you see the cloud native surge coming in. How are you guys looking at this opportunity? >> Yeah, you bet when you, when you look at it from a converged infrastructure or hyper-converged infrastructure or hybrid cloud infrastructure perspective. It's always been about simplicity, right. We're not doing anything in the HCI market in general that can't be otherwise done. It's just making it much simpler, reducing that that learning curve and reducing that time to value that our IT customers get. And so I think we saw it, you know, converged infrastructure and hyper-converged infrastructure, all start out with virtualization is kind of the top layer that's facilitated but now obviously Kubernetes is becoming table stakes in the enterprise. So I think we're seeing all the vendors in the space, put in some kind of automatic deployment of Kubernetes or some easier deployment of Kubernetes, making Kubernetes that top layer rather than just virtualization. And, you know, this is a really great opportunity for us at NetApp to be able to do that. Not only with just any Kubernetes package but one that's very well regarded and beloved in the DevOps communities and that's Rancher. So what we have here is kind of something that's great for IT, and really great for DevOps in terms of being able to centralize multi cluster management across a hybrid cloud ecosystem and really empower those DevOps teams, what they to do what they need to do but still keeping IT at the center of it. >> You know, it's interesting, you know, shift left for security DevOps here, DevSecOps, it's all kind of happening with software, software defined, software operated. This is what this is the new operating environment. What is the use cases that presents itself well for this is it from a customer standpoint? Is it they're looking for certain things when you look at the product definition, you say, okay we have NetApp, we have Rancher. Take me through that thinking, what's the customer use case? What are they getting out of this? >> Sure, I think there's a variety of use cases where you see Kubernetes coming into play. And one of the great things about NetApp HCI, is it's not just simple infrastructure but it's also very scalable infrastructure. So that's where a lot of these types of products fall down. As we get to such such a scale point they don't work because of our scalability and our ability to handle mixed workloads. We can really handle any number of use cases. So in a Kubernetes context, this could be anything from IT departments who are going to containerized applications for their own, you know, the applications that they themselves manage, like ERP systems and so forth that are starting to get containerized. It could also be for bespoke applications that the companies are writing themselves, the DevOps teams that actually write the code that makes the company work. And so there, there's kind of a wide variety of use cases in there that are starting to go to Kubernetes. If not there already, the DevOps teams largely are already using Kubernetes. And this is just a great way to centralize it on on one kind of easy button, but yet very scalable and highly performing infrastructure for that kind of consolidation. >> Jim, this is the holy grail we've you guys have been doing since the beginning of Rancher Labs, programmable infrastructure, infrastructure as code, you couldn't get any clear or here when you start to have mainstream, you know, programmable storage and still programmable networking. All of this is happening. This is what we had hoped for the world's now gone full containers. Now you've got Kubernetes and IDC still shows that the enterprises are only like 30 to 40%. Even deep in their toes in on containers. If that, so you see a coupe call and you see all that at VM world, you'll see that re-invent you're going to see mainstream IT, the classic IT with DevOps. What's your reaction to that? Because there this, you know, what's your, what's your what's your take on this? >> Yeah I think you're absolutely right, we are scratching the surface and I think that we will see IT really embrace, right. This, this becomes the opportunity for business enablement to take, to take shape across all different avenues, IT is building infrastructure and make it, you know, allowing compute to be available. And this is kind of, we'll see this surge, not just the IT operations but really having the different groups from app devs to the business line owners, to those pushing applications, understanding the entire ecosystem. You know, we're talking about NetApp and HCI today but you can think of cross the edge, data center edge cloud, retail point of sale systems, getting immediate updates, dealing with IT operations and the compute platforms. It's really just endless. And we're excited. I think the OEM program is going to allow companies like NetApp and in other verticals and industries to really take shape and take advantage of what Rancher's offering to help them be more efficient across what their critical business apps are trying to do. >> Well, congratulations on NetApp, they're very smart company. They've got savvy customers and they're very loyal. Bryce, with that in mind, what's been the reaction you laid out the use cases when you bring this to market with your customers and partners? What's the feedback thumbs up on this and what's the vibe? >> Yeah, we've had some really enthusiastic early reaction, a couple early customers looking at it. You know, it's been a lot of fun and people are really excited that one of the great things about doing this with Rancher is that it's, it's purely open source software. So, you know, our customers love that. It's, there's, it's kind of a low risk proposition for them. They're very well, well hedged they can push this button and get it started on their NetApp HCI with very little, very little lead up to that very little advanced knowledge and just kind of get started. It's actually there's no incremental costs to use it on NetApp HCI. It's just, if you want a joint support model that it, that that there's a fee. And so you can kind of think of it as an indefinite trial period in a way. And I think that's created a lot of early interest and I think yeah I think it's going to be a really great option for our customers. It's going to add a lot of value to the NetApp HCI product. And so far, everyone's been very excited about it. >> You know, I was talking with Dave Vellante, my co-host in the CUBE also does a lot of storage research, knows NetApp as well. We were also commenting about this dynamic and we kind of call this out in 2016 when VMware was having trouble with the cloud operations. And then they decided to get rid of everything and just partner with Amazon. Everyone's like, that's horrible. It's going to be terrible. They're going to lose all their customers but we pointed out and I think this is true here. And I want to get your reaction, both of you guys, if you don't mind commenting what turned out to be the case was is that there was a clear distinction and operator of infrastructure and software development environments with higher level cloud native services. And they're not necessarily competing directly. They're kind of coming together, this idea of operating infrastructure and IT concept when it goes software and goes cloud, it's not a win, lose dynamic. You have software and you get people often need to operate that either code it or run it. So at large scale, this is where HCI kind of fits in Bryce, right? I mean, because now you got the edge, it's more devices. I mean, this is more infrastructure to run. So more, more stuff you've got to operate all this stuff. It's not going to ever go away. You guys react to that. What do you think? >> Sure. Yeah, I think I mean, from a NetApp perspective our customers use all kinds of infrastructure. They use public cloud infrastructure and NetApp has a really great public cloud focused portfolio, around public cloud services. So that's certainly a market that would be playing in our customers use. And it's part of the landscape, as you say, edge, of course also, and you know, with this solution I think it fits right into that because Rancher becomes this kind of container orchestration control plane. That's hosted on an HCI but can span this hybrid multi-cloud and edge environment all from that kind of centralized location. >> I think the simplification of the workloads is a huge deal. Jim, your, your thoughts on this? I see you've got this great program. You have the OEM program and you got an indirect partner, rising tide floats all boats here with, with this market. What's your take? >> Absolutely. And what better way to launch this program with somebody like NetApp? So yeah, you know, Rancher from its inception has been an open source platform agnostic. I think that will help, you know, help us, not just us but NetApp and other OEM partners, depending on operating system, legacy systems, verticals, industries, we're all playing a part in it. On-prem cloud, hybrid cloud, you know, I think Ranchers really well suited, for this advancement strictly by the way that we've continued in our philosophy of building an open source agnostic platform to help organizations, OEMs, ISBs, cloud providers, you name it. I think that Rancher is really well suited for, you know, kind of taking this additional ride, if you will, right. We're seeing we're all seeing it. And as you pointed out, it's less than 30% adoption today. We're all hoping for that to increase exponentially. >> Yeah, when you go mainstream, you get a lot of issues. Bryce, final question on the news analysis here. Why Rancher Labs from a NetApp perspective, what was the what was the deciding factor for you guys? >> Well, they just made a lot of sense for us to partner with. Again, the open source nature of it and the free nature of it made it really low barrier to entry for our customers. We really liked that. We also like they're very open and agnostic approach. So, you know, nothing that we're doing here with Rancher has to be at the expense of any other relationships that we have. And that was really that was really an important consideration. You know, it's, it's a very low risk, low cost, easy to get going solution for our customers. And there's very, there's no fear of lock-in with it. And so it's basically just all potential upsides and no potential downsides. And I think it's a really great solution for both IT and for DevOps, which was really critical. >> Real quick question on the customer expectation. Are you guys going to support Rancher? How does a customer get impacted by this? Obviously NetApp has, has their own supporters or is there a joint support? Is you guys going to handle that? How does the customer deal with that touches? >> Yeah, that's, that's really the crux of the deal. There is NetApp is able to provide frontline support for our customers or NetApp HCI customers, if they've, if they've purchased the Rancher support package through NetApp, they can get support for it through NetApp. And we're able to pass tickets back and forth between the companies as needed. So you don't have to have any guesswork about where where the problem and the stack might lie. You just opened your support ticket with NetApp and we can make sure it gets resolved. So that's been a really great part of the deal. >> Well, gentlemen, thanks for coming on. Appreciate the news insight. I do want to ask one final question, while I got you both here. If you don't mind, as we come in to the end of the year 2020, what a crazy year it's been between the pandemic and just the just the shift and the massive sea change of how virtual virtualization, not, you know, server or storage virtualization, but you know, the virtual world we live in remote everything, pandemic, uncertainty the digital transformation is just full throttle just more and more pressure. As we come out of cloud native CUBE con and AWS reinvent, we had VM all this activity. What do you guys think of the most important stories that customers should pay attention to in cloud native? What's what's the high order bit? What's the one thing or two things that really are notable that people should pay attention to that's important? Bryce, we'll start with you. >> I think it's bringing Kubernetes into the mainstream, right? I mean, that's what we see happening. How do you do that in a way that continues to give DevOps the flexibility they need and empower them and the way that Kubernetes does, but but also brings it into the mainstream. That's what I think what everyone's trying to solve right now >> Jim, your take on the most important story people should pay attention to. >> I think the same, I think Kubernetes adoption and really getting that education and people up to speed to start making that transformation. You know, quicker and getting that adoption rate up. I think we'll see a lot of benefits. Like you said, remote virtual in Kubernetes is kind of that framework that needs to get out there, be prevalent and and all of us take advantage, and start working together. >> All right, we'll leave it there. Guys, congratulations on the deal. NetApp embedding Kubernetes and Rancher support inside their hyper-converged infrastructure HCI. Bryce, Jim, thanks for coming on the CUBE. >> Thank you. >> Okay, I'm John Furrier with CUBE conversation here in Palo Alto. Normally when we do these in person but it's remote with the pandemic, giving you the latest continuing the cube virtual coverage, here in Palo Alto. Thanks for watching. (gentle music)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with coverage of Coop con and cloud, native con Europe 2020 Virtual brought to you by Red Hat, The Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners >>Welcome back. This is the Cube coverage of Cube Con Cloud, native con, the European show for 2020. I'm your host to Minuteman. And when we talk about the container world, we talk about what's happening in cloud. Native storage has been one of those sticking points. One of those things that you know has been challenging, that we've been looking to mature and really happy to welcome back to the program two of our cube alumni to give us the update on the state of storage for the container world. Both of them are oh, founders and CEOs. First of all, we have Xiang Yang from Rancher Labs, of course, was recently acquired by Sue Save it and the intention to acquire on and also joining us from early the relay. Who is with port works? Shang Amerli. Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you. Thank you. Alright. So early. I actually I'm going to start with you just cause you know we've seen, you know, a couple of waves of companies working on storage. In this environment, we know storage is difficult. Um, And when we change how we're building things, there's architectural things that can happen. Eso maybe if you could just give us a snapshot, you know, Port works, you know, was created to help unpack this. You know, straight on here in 2020 you know, where you see things in the overall kind of computer storage landscape? >>Absolutely. Still, before I kind of jump into port works. I just want to take a minute to publicly congratulate the the whole rancher team, and and Shang and Shannon And will China have known those folks for a while there? They're kind of true entrepreneurs. They represent the serial entrepreneur spirit that that so many folks know in the valley, and so, you know, great outcome for them. We're very happy for them and ah, big congrats and shout out to the whole team. What works is is a little over five years old, and we've been kind of right from the inception of the company recognized that to put containers in production, you're gonna have to solve, not just the orchestration problem. But the issue of storage and data orchestration and so in a natural kubernetes orchestrates containers and what works orchestrates storage and data. And more specifically, by doing that, what we enable is enterprises to be able to take APS that are containerized into production at scale and and have high availability. Disaster recovery, backup all of the things that for decades I t has had to do and has done to support application, reliability and availability. But essentially we're doing it for purpose with the purpose build solution for containerized workloads. >>Alright, shaming. Of course, storage is a piece of the overall puzzle that that ranchers trying to help with. Maybe if you could just refresh our audience on Longhorn, which your organization has its open source. It's now being managed by the CN. CF is my understanding. So help us bring Longhorn into the discussion >>thanks to. So I'm really glad to be here. We've I think rancher and port work started about the same time, and we started with a slightly different focus. More is exactly right to get containers going, you really need both so that the computer angle orchestrating containers as well as orchestrating the storage and the data. So rancher started with, ah, it's slightly stronger focus on orchestrating containers themselves, but pretty quickly, we realized, as adoption of containers grow, we really need it to be able to handle ah, storage feather. And like any new technology, you know, uh, Kubernetes and containers created some interesting new requirements and opportunities, and at the time, really, they weren't. Ah, a lot of good technologies available, you know, technologies like rook and SEF at the time was very, very premature, I think, Ah, the You know, we actually early on try to incorporate ah, the cluster technology. And it was just it was just not easy. And And at the time I think port Works was, ah, very busy developing. Ah, what turned out to be there flagship product, which we end up, end up, uh, partnering very, very closely. But but early on, we really had no choice but to start developing our own storage technology. So Long horn. As a piece of container storage technology, it's actually almost as oh, there's rancher itself. When about funding engineers, we hired he he ended up, you know, working on it and Then over the years, you know the focus shift that I think the original version was written in C plus plus, and over the years it's now being completely re written in Golan. It was originally written more for Docker workload. Now, of course, everything is kubernetes centric. And last year we you know, we we decided to donate the Longhorn Open Source project to CN CF. And now it's a CN CF sandbox project, and the adoption is just growing really quickly. And just earlier this year, we we finally ah decided to we're ready to offer a commercial support for it. So So that's that's where rancher is. And with longhorn and container storage technology. >>Yeah, it has been really interesting to watch in this ecosystem. A couple of years ago, one of the Q con shows I was talking to people coming out of the Believe It was the Sigs, the special interest group for storage, and it was just like, Wow, it was heated. Words were, you know, back and forth. There's not a lot of agreement there. Anybody that knows the storage industry knows that you know standards in various ways of doing things often are contentious and there's there's differences of opinion. Look at the storage industry. You know, there's a reason why there's so many different solutions out there. So maybe it love to hear from early. From your standpoint, things are coming to get a little bit more. There are still a number of options out there. So you know, why is this kind of coop petition? I actually good for the industry? >>Yeah, I think this is a classic example of Coop petition. Right? Let's let's start with the cooperation part right? The first part of time the you know, the early days of CN, CF, and even sort of the Google Communities team, I think, was really very focused on compute and and subsequent years. In the last 34 years, there's been a greater attention to making the whole stack works, because that's what it's going to take to take a the enterprise class production and put it in, you know, enterprise class application and put it in production. So extensions like C and I for networking and CS I container storage interface. We're kind of put together by a working group and and ah ah you know both both in the CN CF, but also within the kubernetes Google community. That's you talked about six storage as an example. And, you know, as always happens, right? Like it It looks a little bit in the early days. Like like a polo game, right where folks are really? Ah, you know, seemingly, uh, you know, working with each other on on top of the pool. But underneath they're kicking each other furiously. But that was a long time back, and we've graduated from then into really cooperating. And I think it's something we should all be proud of. Where now the CS I interface is really a A really very, very strong and complete solution tow, allowing communities to orchestrate storage and data. So it's really strengthened both communities and the kubernetes ecosystem. Now the competition part. Let's kind of spend. I want to spend a couple of minutes on that too, right? Um, you know, one of the classic things that people sometimes confuse is the difference between an overlay and an interface. CSC is wonderful because it defines how the two layers off essentially kind of old style storage. You know, whether it's a san or ah cloud, elastic storage bucket or all of those interact with community. So the the definition of that interface kind of lay down some rules and parameters for how that interaction should happen. However, you still always need an overlay like Port Works that that actually drives that interface and enables Kubernetes to actually manage that storage. And that's where the competition is. And, you know, she mentioned stuff and bluster and rook and kind of derivatives of those. And I think those have been around really venerable and and really excellent products for born in a different era for a different time open stack, object storage and all of that not really meant for kind of primary workloads. And they've been they've been trying to be adapted for, for for us, for this kind of workload. Port Works is really a built from right from the inception to be designed for communities and for kubernetes workloads at enterprise scale. And so I think, you know, as I as I look at the landscape, we welcome the fact that there are so many more people acknowledging that there is a vital need for data orchestration on kubernetes right, that that's why everybody and their brother now has a CS I interface. However, I think there's a big difference between having an interface. This is actually having the software that provides the functionality for H. A, D R. And and for backup, as as the kind of life cycle matures and doing it not just at scale, but in a way that allows kind of really significant removal or reduction off the storage admin role and replaces it with self service that is fully automated within communities. Yeah, if I >>can, you know, add something that that I completely agree. I mean, over the Longhorns been around for a long time. Like I said, I'm really happy that over the years it hasn't really impacted our wonderful collaborative partnership with what works. I mean, Poll works has always been one of our premier partners. We have a lot of, ah, common customers in this fight. I know these guys rave about what works. I don't think they'll ever get out for works. Ah, home or not? Uh huh. Exactly. Like Morissette, you know, in the in the storage space, there's interface, which a lot of different implementations can plugging, and that's kind of how rancher works. So we always tell people Rancher works with three types of storage implementations. One is let we call legacy storage. You know, your netapp, your DMC, your pure storage and those are really solid. But they were not suddenly not designed to work with containers to start with, but it doesn't matter. They've all written CS I interfaces that would enable containers to take advantage of. The second type is some of the cloud a block storage or file storage services like EBS, GFS, Google Cloud storage and support for these storage back and the CS I drivers practically come with kubernetes itself, so those are very well supported. But there's still a huge amount of opportunities for the third type of you know, we call container Native Storage. So that is where Port Works and the Longhorn and other solutions like open EBS storage OS. All these guys fitting is a very vibrant ecosystem of innovation going on there. So those solutions are able to create basically reliable storage from scratch. You know, when you from from just local disks and they're actually also able to add a lot of value on top of whatever traditional or cloud based, persistent storage you already have. So so the whole system, the whole ecosystem, is developing very quickly. A lot of these solutions work with each other, and I think to me it's really less of a competition or even Coop petition. It's really more off raising the bar for for the capabilities so that we can accelerate the amount of workload that's been moved onto this wonderful kubernetes platform in the end of the benefit. Everyone, >>Well, I appreciate you both laying out some of the options, you know, showing just a quick follow up on that. I think back if you want. 15 years ago was often okay. I'm using my GMC for my block. I'm using my netapp for the file. I'm wondering in the cloud native space, if we expect that you might have multiple different data engine types in there you mentioned you know, I might want port works for my high performance. You said open EBS, very popular in the last CN CF survey might be another one there. So is do we think some of it is just kind of repeating itself that storage is not monolithic and in a micro service architecture. You know, different environments need different storage requirements. >>Yeah, I mean quick. I love to hear more is view as well, especially about you know, about how the ecosystem is developing. But from my perspective, just just the range of capabilities that's now we expect out of storage vendors or data management vendors is just increased tremendously. You know, in the old days, if you can store blocks to object store file, that's it. Right. So now it's this is just table stakes. Then then what comes after that? There will be 345 additional layers of requirements come all the way from backup, restore the our search indexing analytics. So I really think all of this potentially off or in the in the bucket of the storage ecosystem, and I just can't wait to see how this stuff will play out. I think we're still very, very early stages, and and there, you know what? What, what what containers did is they made fundamentally the workload portable, but the data itself still holds a lot of gravity. And then just so much work to do to leverage the fundamental work load portability. Marry that with some form of universal data management or data portability. I think that would really, uh, at least the industry to the next level. Marie? >>Yeah. Shanghai Bean couldn't. Couldn't have said it better. Right? Let me let me let me kind of give you Ah, sample. Right. We're at about 160 plus customers now, you know, adding several by the month. Um, just with just with rancher alone, right, we are. We have common customers in all common video expedient Roche March X, Western Asset Management. You know, charter communications. So we're in production with a number off rancher customers. What are these customers want? And why are they kind of looking at a a a Port works class of solution to use, You know, Xiang's example of the multiple types, right? Many times, people can get started with something in the early days, which has a CS I interface with maybe say, $10 or 8 to 10 nodes with a solution that allows them to at least kind of verify that they can run the stack up and down with, say, you know, a a rancher type orchestrator, workloads that are containerized on and a network plug in and a storage plugging. But really, once they start to get beyond 20 notes or so, then there are problems that are very, very unique to containers and kubernetes that pop up that you don't see in a in a non containerized environment, right? Some. What are some of these things, right? Simple examples are how can you actually run 10 to hundreds of containers on a server, with each one of those containers belonging to a different application and having different requirements? How do you actually scale? Not to 16 nodes, which is sort of make typically, maybe Max of what a San might go to. But hundreds and thousands of notes, like many of our customers, are doing like T Mobile Comcast. They're running this thing at 600 thousands of notes or scale is one issue. Here is a critical critical difference that that something that's designed for Kubernetes does right. We are providing all off the storage functions that Shang just described at container granted, granularity versus machine granularity. One way to think about this is the old Data center was in machine based construct. Construct everything you know. VM Ware is the leader, sort of in that all of the way. You think of storage as villains. You think of compute and CPUs, everything. Sub sub nets, right? All off. Traditional infrastructure is very, very machine centric. What kubernetes and containers do is move it into becoming an app defined control plane, right? One of the things were super excited about is the fact that Kubernetes is really not just a container orchestrator, but actually a orchestrator for infrastructure in an app defined way. And by doing that, they have turned, uh, you know, control off the infrastructure via communities over to a kubernetes segment. The same person who uses rancher uses port works at NVIDIA, for example to manage storage as they use it, to manage the compute and to manage containers. And and that's marvellous, because now what has happened is this thing is now fully automated at scale and and actually can run without the intervention off a storage admin. No more trouble tickets, right? No more requests to say, Hey, give me another 20 terabytes. All of that happens automatically with the solution like port works. And in fact, if you think about it in the world of real time services that we're all headed towards right Services like uber now are expected in enterprises machine learning. Ai all of these things analytics that that change talk about are things that you expect to run in a fully automated way across vast amounts of data that are distributed sometimes in the edge. And you can't do that unless you're fully automated and and not really the storage admin intervention. And that's kind of the solution that we provide. >>Alright, well, we're just about out of time. If I could just last piece is, you know, early and saying to talk about where we are with long for and what we should expect to see through the rest of this year and get some early for you to you know, what differentiates port works from Just, you know, the open source version. So And maybe if we start with just kind of long or in general and then really from from your standpoint, >>yeah, so it's so so the go along one is really to lower the bar for folks to run state for workloads on on kubernetes we want you know, the the Longhorn is 100% open source and it's owned by CN cf now. So we in terms of features and functionalities is obviously a small subset of what a true enterprise grade solution like Port Works or, um, CEO on that that could provide. So there's just, you know, the storage role. Ah, future settle. The roadmap is very rich. I don't think it's not really Ranchers go Oh, our Longhorns goal to, you know, to try to turn itself into a into a plug in replacement for these enterprise, great storage or data management solutions. But But they're you know, there's some critical critical feature gaps that we need address. And that's what the team is gonna be focusing on, perhaps for the rest of the year. >>Yeah, uh, still, I would I would kind of, you know, echo what Chang said, right? I think folks make it started with solutions, like longer or even a plug in connector plug in with one of their existing storage vendors, whether it's pure netapp or or EMC from our viewpoint, that's wonderful, because that allows them to kind of graduate to where they're considering storage and data as part of the stack. They really should that's the way they're going to succeed by by looking at it as a whole and really with, You know, it's a great way to get started on a proof of concept architecture where your focus initially is very much on the orchestration and the container ization part. But But, as Xiang pointed out, you know what what rancher did, what I entered it for Kubernetes was build a simple, elegant, robust solution that kind of democratized communities. We're doing the same thing for communities storage right? What Port works does is have a solution that is simple, elegant, fully automated, scalable and robust. But more importantly, it's a complete data platform, right? We we go where all these solutions start, but don't kind of venture forward. We are a full, complete lifecycle management for data across that whole life cycle. So there's many many customers now are buying port works and then adding deal right up front, and then a few months later they might come back and I'd backup from ports. So two shanks point right because of the uniqueness of the kubernetes workload, because it is an app defined control plane, not machine to find what is happening is it's disrupting, Just like just like virtualization day. VM exist today because because they focused on a VM version off. You know, the their backup solution. So the same thing is happening. Kubernetes workloads are district causing disruption of the D r and backup and storage market with solutions like sports. >>Wonderful. Merlin Chang. Thank you so much for the updates. Absolutely. The promise of containers A Z you were saying? Really, is that that Atomic unit getting closer to the application really requires storage to be a full and useful solution. So great to see the progress that's being made. Thank you so much for joining us. >>Welcome, Shannon. We look forward to ah, working with you as you reach for the stars. Congratulations again. We look >>forward to the containing partnership morally and thank you. Still for the opportunity here. >>Absolutely great talking to both of you And stay tuned. Lots more coverage of the Cube Cube Con cloud, native con 2020 Europe. I'm stew minimum. And thank you for watching the Cube. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

>> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE Conversation. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman coming to you from our Boston area studio and this is a special CUBE Conversation, we always love talking to startups around the industry, understanding how they're creating innovation, doing new things out there, and oftentimes one of the exits for those companies is they do get acquired, and happy to welcome back to the program one of our CUBE alumni, Sheng Liang, he is the cofounder and CEO of Rancher, today there was an announcement for a definitive acquisition of SUSE, who our audience will know well, we were at SUSECON, so Sheng, first of all, thank you for joining us, and congratulations to you and the team on joining SUSE here in the near future. >> Thank you, Stu, I'm glad to be here. >> All right, so Sheng, why don't you give our audience a little bit of context, so I've known Rancher since the very early days, I knew Rancher before most people had heard the word Kubernetes, it was about containerization, it was about helping customers, there was that cattles versus pets, so that Rancher analogy was, hey, we're going to be your rancher and help you deal with that sprawl and all of those pieces out there, where you don't want to know them by name and the like, so help us understand how what was announced today is meeting along the journey that you set out for with Rancher. >> Absolutely, so SUSE is the largest independent opensource software company in the world, and they're a leader in enterprise Linux. Today they announced they have signed a definitive agreement to acquire Rancher, so we started Rancher about six years ago, as Stu said, to really build the next generation enterprise compute platform. And in the beginning, we thought we're going to just base our technology based on Docker containers, but pretty soon Kubernetes was just clearly becoming an industry standard, so Rancher actually became the most widely used enterprise Kubernetes platform, so really with the combination of Rancher and SUSE going forward, we're going to be able to supply the enterprise container platform of choice for lots and lots of customers out there. >> Yeah, just for our audience that might not be as familiar with Rancher, why don't you give us your position in where we are with the Kubernetes landscape, I've talked about many times on theCUBE, a few years ago it was all about "Hey, are we going to have some distribution war?" Rancher has an option in that space, but today it's multicloud, Rancher works with all of the cloud Kubernetes versions, so what is it that Rancher does uniquely, and of course as you mentioned, opensource is a key piece of what you're doing. >> Exactly, Stu, thanks for the question. So this is really a good lead-up into describing what Rancher does, and some of the industry dynamics, and the great opportunity we see with SUSE. So many of you, I'm sure, have heard about Kubernetes, Kubernetes is this container orchestration platform that basically works everywhere, and you can deploy all kinds of applications, and run these applications through Kubernetes, it doesn't really matter, fundamentally, what infrastructure you use anymore, so the great thing about Kubernetes is whether you deploy your apps on AWS or on Azure, or on on-premise bare metal, or vSphere clusters, or out there in IoT gateways and 5G base stations and surveillance cameras, literally everywhere, Kubernetes will run, so it's, in our world I like to think about Kubernetes as the standard for compute. If you kind of make the analogy, what's the standard of networking, that's TCPIP, so networking used to be very different, decades ago, there used to be different kinds of networking and at best you had a local area network for a small number of computers to talk to each other, but today with TCPIP as a standard, we have internet, we have Cisco, we have Google, we have Amazon, so I really think as successful as cloud computing has been, and how much impact it has had to actually push digital transformation and app modernization forward, a lot of organizations are kind of stuck between their desire to take advantage of a cloud provider, one specific cloud provider, all the bells and whistles, versus any cloud provider, not a single cloud provider can actually supply infrastructure for everything that a large enterprise would need. You may be in a country, you may be in some remote locations, you may be in your own private data center, so the market really really demands a standard form of compute infrastructure, and that turned out to be Kubernetes, that is the true, Kubernetes started as a way Google internally ran their containers, but what it really hit the stride was a couple years ago, people started realizing for once, compute could be standardized, and that's where Rancher came in, Rancher is a Kubernetes management platform. We help organizations tie together all of their Kubernetes clusters, regardless where they are, and you can see this is a very natural evolution of organizations who embark on this Kubernetes journey, and by definition Rancher has to be open, because who, this is such a strategic piece of software, who would want their single point of control for all compute to be actually closed and proprietary? Rancher is 100% opensource, and not only that, Rancher works with everyone, it really doesn't matter who implements Kubernetes for you, I mean Rancher could implement Kubernetes for you, we have a Kubernetes distro as well, we actually have, we're particularly well-known for Kubernetes distro design for resource constrained deployments on the edge, called K3S, some of you might have heard about it, but really, we don't care, I mean we work with upstream Kubernetes distro, any CNCF-compliant Kubernetes distro, or one of many many other popular cloud hosted Kubernetes services like EKS, GKE, AKS, and with Rancher, enterprise can start to treat all of these Kubernetes clusters as fungible resources, as catalysts, so that is basically our vision, and they can focus on modernizing their application, running their application reliably, and that's really what Rancher's about. >> Okay, so Sheng, being acquired by SUSE, I'd love to hear a little bit, what does this mean for the product, what does it mean for your customers, what does it mean for you personally? According to Crunchbase, you'd raised 95 million dollars, as you said, over the six years. It's reported by CNBC, that the acquisition's in the ballpark of 600 to 700 million, so that would be about a 6X increment over what was invested, not sure if you can comment on the finances, and would love to hear what this means going forward for Rancher and its ecosystem. >> Yeah, actually, I know there's tons of rumors going around, but the acquisition price, SUSE's decided not to disclose the acquisition price, so I'm not going to comment on that. Rancher's been a very cash-efficient business, there's been no shortage of funding, but even amounts to 95 million dollars that we raised, we really haven't spent majority of it, we probably spent just about a third of the money we raised, in fact our last run to fundraise was just three, four month ago, it was a 40 million dollar series D, and we didn't even need that, I mean we could've just continued with the series C money that we raised a couple years ago, which we barely started spending either. So the great thing about Rancher's business is because we're such a product-driven company, with opensource software, you develop a unique product that actually solves a real problem, and then there's just no barrier to adoption, so this stuff just spreads organically, people download and install, and then they put it in mission-critical production. Then they seek us out for commercial subscription, and the main value they're getting out of commercial subscription is really the confidence that they can actually rely on the software to power their mission-critical workload, so once they really start using Rancher, they recognize that Rancher as an organization provide, so this business model's worked out really well for us. Vast majority of our deals are based on inbound leads, and that's why we've been so efficient, and that's I think one of the things that really attracted SUSE as well. It's just, these days you don't just want a business that you have to do heavy weight, heavy duty, old fashioned enterprise (indistinct), because that's really expensive, and when so much of that value is building through some kind of a bundling or locking, sooner or later customers know better, right? They want to get away. So we really wanted to provide a opensource, and open, more important than opensource is actually open, lot of people don't realize there are actually lots of opensource software even in the market that are not really quite open, that might seem like a contradiction, but you can have opensource software which you eventually package it in a way, you don't even make the source code available easily, you don't make it easy to rebuild the stuff, so Rancher is truly open and opensource, people just download opensource software, run it in the day they need it, our Enterprise subscription we will support, the day they don't need it, they will actually continue to run the same piece of software, and we'd be happy to continue to provide them with patches and security fixes, so as an organization we really have to provide that continuous value, and it worked out really well, because, this is such a important piece of software. SUSE has this model that I saw on their website, and it really appeals to us, it's called the power of many, so SUSE, turns out they not only completely understand and buy into our commitment to open and opensource, but they're completely open in terms of supporting the whole ecosystem, the software stack, that not only they produce, but their partners produce, in many cases even their competitors produce, so that kind of mentality really resonated with us. >> Yeah, so Sheng, you wrote in the article announcing the acquisition that when the deal closes, you'll be running engineering and innovation inside of SUSE, if I remember right, Thomas Di Giacomo has a similar title to that right now in SUSE, course Melissa Di Donato is the CEO of SUSE. Of course the comparison that everyone will have is you are now the OpenShift to SUSE. You're no stranger to OpenShift, Rancher competes against RedHat OpenShift out on the market. I wonder if you could share a little bit, what do you see in your customer base for people out there that says "Hey, how should I think of Rancher "compared to what RedHat's been doing with OpenShift?" >> Yeah, I mean I think RedHat did a lot of good things for opensource, for Linux, for Kubernetes, and for the community, OpenShift being primarily a Kubernetes distro and on top of that, RedHat built a number of enhanced capabilities, but at the end of the day, we don't believe OpenShift by itself actually solves the kind of problem we're seeing with customers today, and that's why as much investment has gone into OpenShift, we just see no slowdown, in fact an acceleration of demand of Rancher, so we don't, Rancher always thrived by being different, and the nice thing about SUSE being a independent company, as opposed to a part of a much larger organization like RedHat, is where we're going to be as an organization 100% focused on bringing the best experience to customers, and solve customers' business problems, as they transform their legacy application suite into cloud-native infrastructure. So I think the opportunity is so large, and there's going to be enough market there for multiple players, but we measure our success by how many people, how much adoption we're actually getting out of our software, and I said in the beginning, Rancher is the most widely used enterprise Kubernetes platform, and out of that, what real value we're delivering to our customers, and I think we solve those problems, we'll be able to build a fantastic business with SUSE. >> Excellent. Sheng, I'm wondering if we could just look back a little bit, you're no stranger to acquisitions, remember back when Cloud.com was acquired by Citrix, back when we had the stack wars between CloudStack and OpenStack and the like, I'm curious what lessons you learned having gone through that, that you took away, and prepared you for what you're doing here, and how you might do things a little bit differently, with the SUSE acquisition. >> Yeah, my experience with Cloud.com acquired by Citrix was very good, in fact, and a lot of times, you really got to figure out a way to adapt to actually make sure that Rancher as a standalone business, or back then, Cloud.com was a standalone business, how are they actually fitting to the acquirer's business as a whole? So when Cloud.com was acquired, it was pretty clear, as attractive as the CloudStack business was, really the bigger prize for Citrix was to actually modernize and cloudify their desktop business, which absolutely was like a two billion dollar business, growing to three billion dollars back then, I think it's even bigger now, with now everyone working remote. So we at Citrix, we not only continued to grow the CloudStack business, but more importantly, one of the things I'm the most proud of is we really played up a crucial role in modernizing and cloudifying the Citrix mainline business. So this time around, I think the alignment between what Rancher does and what SUSE does is even more apparent, obviously, until the deal actually closes, we're not really allowed to actually plan or execute on some of the integration synergies, but at a higher level, I don't see any difficulty for SUSE to be able to effectively market, and service their global base of customers, using the Rancher technology, so it's just the synergy between Kubernetes and Linux is just so much stronger, and in some sense, I think I've used this term before, Kubernetes is almost like the new Linux, so it just seems like a very natural place for SUSE to evolve into anyway, so I'm very very bullish about the potential synergy with the acquisition, I just can't wait to roll up my hands and get going as soon as the deal closes. >> All right, well Sheng, thank you so much for joining us, absolutely from our standpoint, we look at it, it's a natural fit of what Rancher does into SUSE, as you stated. The opensource vision, the community, and customer-focused absolutely align, so best of luck with the integration, looking forward to seeing you when you have your new role and hearing more about Rancher's journey, now part of SUSE. Thanks for joining us. >> Thank you Stu, it's always great talking to you. >> All right, and be sure, we'll definitely catch up with Rancher's team at the KubeCon + CloudNativeCon European show, which is of course virtual, as well as many other events down the road. I'm Stu Miniman, and thank you for watching theCUBE.

>> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. Brought to you by RedHat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Stu: Welcome back to theCUBE, I'm Stu Miniman. My cohost for three days of coverage is John Troyer. We're here at KubeCon CloudNativeCon in San Diego, over 12,000 in attendance and happy to welcome back a CUBE alumni and veteran of generations of the stacks that we've seen come together and change over the time, Sheng Liang, who is the co-founder and CEO of Rancher Labs. Thanks so much, great to see you. >> Shang: Thank you Stuart, is very glad to be here. >> All right, so you know Kubernetes, flash to the pan nobody's all that excited about it. I mean, we've seen all these things come and go over the years, Sheng. No but seriously, the excitement is palpable. Every year, you know, so many more people, so many more projects, so much more going on. Help set the stage for you, as to what you see and the importance today of kind of CloudNative in general and you know, this ecosystem specifically. >> Yeah you're so right though, Stuart. Community as a whole and Kubernetes has really come a long way. In the early days, Kubernetes was a uh, you know, somewhat of a technical community, lot of Linux people. But not a whole lot of end users. Not a whole lot of Enterprise customers. I walk in today and just the kind of people I've met, I've probably talked to fifty people already who are just really at the beginning of the show and uh there's a very very large number Enterprise customers. And this does feel like Kubernetes has crossed the chasm and headed in to the mainstream Enterprise market. >> Yeah it's interesting you know I've talked to you know plenty of the people here probably if you brought up things like OpenStack and CloudStack they wouldn't even know what we were talking about. The wave of containerization really seemed to spread far and wide. At Rancher you've done some surveys, give us some of the insight. What are you seeing? You've talked to plenty of customers. Give us where we are with the maturity. >> Definitely, definitely. Enterprise Kubernetes adoption is ready for prime time. You know the So what we're really seeing is some of the early challenges a few years ago a lot of people were having problems with just installing Kubernetes. They were literally just making sure to get people educated about container as a concept. Those have been overcome. Now, uh, we're really facing next generation of growth. And people solve these days solve problems like how do I get my new applications onboarding to Kubernetes. How do I really integrate Kubernetes into my multicloud and hybrid-Cloud strategy? And as Enterprise's need to perform computing in places beyond just the data centers and the cloud, we're also seeing tremendous amount of interest in running Kubernetes on the Edge. So those are some of the major findings of our survey. >> John: That's great. So Sheng I'd love for you to kind of elaborate or elaborate for us where Rancher fits into this. Right. Rancher is, you've been around, you've a mature stack of technology and also some new announcements today so I'd kind of love for you to kind of tell us how you fit in to that landscape you just described. >> Absolutely. This is very exciting and very very fast changing industry. So one of the things that Rancher is able to play very well is we're really able to take work with the community, take the latest and greatest open source technology and actually develop open source products on top this and make that technology useful and consumable for Enterprise at large. So the way we see it, to make Kubernetes work we really need to solve problems at three levels. At the lowest level, the industry need at lot of compliant and compatible certified Kubernetes distros and services. So that's table stakes now. Rancher is a leader in providing CNCF certified Kubernetes distro. We actually provide two of them. One of them is called RKE - Rancher Kubernetes Engine. Something we've been doing it for years. It's really one of the easiest to use and most widely deployed Kubernetes distributions. But we don't force our customers to only use our Kubernetes distribution. Rancher customers can use whatever CNCF certified Kubernetes distribution or Kubernetes services they want. So a lot of our customers use RKE(Rancher Kubernetes Engine) but they also use, when they go to the cloud, they use cloud hosted Kubernetes Services like GKE and EKS. There are really a lot of advantages in using those because cloud providers will help you run these Kubernetes clusters for free. And in many cases they even throw in the infrastructure it takes to run the Kubernetes masters and etcd databases for free. If you're in the cloud, there's really no reason not to be using these Kubernetes services. Now there's one area that Rancher ended up innovating at the Kubernetes distros, despite having these data center focus and cloud focus Kubernetes distros and services. And that is one of our, one of the two big announcements today. And that's called K3S. K3S is a great open source project. It's probably one of the most exciting open source projects in the Kubernetes ecosystem today. And what we did with K3S is we took Kubernetes that's been proven in data center and cloud and we brought it everywhere. So with K3S you can run Kubernetes on a Raspberry Pi. You can run Kubernetes in a surveillance camera. You can run Kubernetes in an ATM machine. You know, we have customers trying to run now Kubernetes in a uh, factory floor. So it really helps us realize our vision of Kubernetes as a new Linux and you run it everywhere. >> Well that's great 'cause you talk about that simplicity that we need and if you start talking about Edge deployment, I don't have the people, I don't have the skillset, and a lot times I don't have the gear, uh, to run that. So you know, help connect the dots as to you know, what led Rancher to do the K3S piece of it and you know, what did we take out? Or what's the differences between K8S and the K3S? >> That's a great question, you know. Even the name "K3S" is actually somewhat a wordplay on K8S You know we kind of cut half of 8 away and you're left with 3. It really happened with some of our early traction we sawing some customers. I remember, in retrospect it wasn't really that long ago. It was like middle of last year, we saw a blog coming out of Chick-fil-A and a group of technical enthusiasts were experimenting with actually running uh, Kubernetes in very, in like Intel Nook servers. You know, they were talking about potentially running three of those servers in every one of their stores and at the time they were using RKE and Rancher Kubernetes Engine to do that. And they run into a lot of issues. I mean to be honest if you think about running Kubernetes in the cloud in the database center, uh these servers have a lot of resources and you also have a dedicated operations teams. You have an SRE to manage them, right? But when you really bring it out into branch offices and Edge computing locations, now all of the sudden, number one, these uh, the software now has to take a lot less resource but also you don't really have SREs monitoring them every day anymore. And you, since these, Kubernetes distro really has to be zero touch and it has to run just like a, you know like a embedded window or Linux server. And that's what K3S was able to accomplish, we were able to really take away lot of the baggage that came with having all the drivers that were necessary to run Kubernetes in the cloud and we were also able to dramatically simplify what it takes to actually start Kubernetes and operate it. >> So unsolicited, I was doing an event right before this one and I asked some people what they looking forward to here at KubeCon. And independently, two different people said, "The thing I'm most excited about is K3S." And I think it's because it's the right slice through Kubernetes. I can run it in my lab. I can run it on my laptop. I can on a stack of Raspberry Pis or Nooks, but I could also run it in production if I, you know I can scale it up >> Stu: Yeah. >> John: And in fact they both got a twinkle in their eye and said well what if this is the future of Kubernetes, like you could take this and you could run it, you know? They were very excited about it. >> Absolutely! I mean, you know, I really think, you know, as a company we survive by, and thrive by delivering the kind of innovation that pushes the market forward right? I mean, we, otherwise people are not going to look at Rancher and say you guys are the originators of Kubernetes technology. So we're very happy to be able to come up with technologies like K3S that effectively greatly broadened the addressable market for everyone. Imagine you were a security vendor and before like all you really got to do is solving security problems. Or if you were a monitoring vendor you were able to solve monitoring problems for a data center and in the cloud. Now with K3S you end up getting to solve the same problems on the Edge and in branch offices. So that's why so many people are so excited about it. >> All right so Sheng you said K3S is one of the announcements this week, what's the rest of the news? >> Yeah so K3S, RKE, and all the GKE, AKS, EKS, they're really the fundamental layer of Kubernetes everywhere. Then on top of that one of the biggest piece of innovation that Rancher labs created is the idea of multi-cluster management. A few years ago it was pretty much of a revolutionary concept. Now it's widely understood. Of course an organization is not going to have just one cluster, they're going to have many clusters. So Rancher is the industry leader for doing multi-cluster management. And these clusters could span clouds, could span data centers, now all the way out to branch offices and the Edge. So we're exhibiting Rancher on the show floor. Everyone, most people I've met here, they know Rancher because of that flash of product. Now our second announcement though is yet another level above Rancher, so what we've seen is in order to really Kubernetes to achieve the next level of adoption in the Enterprise we're seeing you know some of the development teams and especially the less skilled dev ops teams, they're kind of struggling with the learning curve of Kubernetes and also some of the associated technologies around service mesh around Knative, around, you know, CICD, so we created a project called Rio, as in Rio de Janeiro the city. And the nice thing about Rio is it packaged together all these Cloud Native technologies and then we created very easy to use, very simple to understand user experience for developers and dev ops teams. So they no longer have to start with the training course on Kubernetes, on Istio, on Knative, on Tekton, just to get productive. They can pretty much get productive on day one. So that Rio project has hit a very important milestone today, we shipped the beta release for it and we're exhibiting it at the booth as well. >> Well that's great. You know, the beta release of Rio, pulling together a lot of these projects. Can you talk about some folks that, early adopters that have been using them or some folks that have been working with the project? >> Sheng: Yeah absolutely. So I talk about some of the early adoption we're seeing for both K3S and Rio. Uh, what we see the, first of all just the market reception of K3S, as you said, has been tremendous. Couple of even mentioned to you guys today in your earlier interviews. And it is primarily coming from customers who want to run Kubernetes in places you probably haven't quite anticipated before, so I kind of give you two examples. One is actually appliance manufacture. So if you think they used to ship appliances, then you can imagine these appliances come with Linux and they would image their appliance with an OS image with their applications. But what's happening is these applications are becoming so sophisticated they're now talking about running the entire data analytics stack and AI software. So it actually takes Kubernetes not necessarily, because it's one server in a situation of appliance. Kubernetes is not really managing a cluster, but it's managing all the application components and microservices. So they ended up bundling up K3S into their appliance. This is one example. Another example is actually an ISV, that's a very interesting use case as well. So uh, they ship a micro service based application software stack and again their software involves a lot of different complicated components. And they decided to replatform their software on Kubernetes. We've all heard a lot of that! But in their case they have to also ship, they don't just run the software themselves, they have to ship the software to the end users. And most of their end users are not familiar with Kubernetes yet, right? And they don't really want to say, to install our software you go provision the Kubernetes cluster and then you operate it from now on. So what they did is they took K3S and bundled into their application as if it were an application server, almost like a modern day WebLogic and WebSphere, then they shipped the whole thing to their customers. So I thought both of these use cases are really interesting. It really elevates the reach of Kubernetes from just being almost like a cloud platform in the old days to now being an application server. And then I'll also quickly talk about Rio. A lot of interest inside Rio is around really dev ops teams who've had, I mean, we did a survey early on and we found out that a lot of our customers they deploy Kubernetes in services. But they end up building a custom experience on top of their Kubernetes deployment, just so that most of their internal users wouldn't have to take a course on Kubernetes to start using it. So they can just tell that this thing that, this is where my source code is and then every thing from that point on will be automated. So now with Rio they wouldn't have to do that anymore. Effectively Rio is the direct source to URL type of, one step process. And they are able to adopt Rio for that purpose. >> So Sheng, I want to go back to when we started this conversation. You said, you know, the ecosystem growing. That not only, you know, so many vendors here, 129 end users, members of the CNCF. The theme we've been talking about is to really, you know, it's ready for production and people are all embracing it. But to get the vast majority of people, simplicity really needs to come front and center, I think. K3S really punctuates that. What else do we need to do as an ecosystem, you know, Rancher is looking to take a leadership position and help drive this, but what else do you want to see from your peers, the community, overall to help drive this to the promise that it could deliver. >> We really see the adoption of Kubernetes is probably going to wing at three, I mean. We see most organizations go through this three step journey. The first step is you got to install and operate Kubernetes. You know, day one, day two. And I think we've got it down. With K3S it becomes so easy. With GKE it becomes one API call or one simple UI interaction. And CNCS has really stepped up and created a great, you know, compliance certification program, right? So we're not seeing the kind of fragmentation that we saw with some of the other technologies. This is fantastic. Then the second step we see is, which a lot of our customers are going through now, is now you have all the Kubernetes clusters coming from different clouds, different infrastructure, potentially on the Edge. You have a management problem. Now you all of the sudden because we made Kubernetes clusters so easy to obtain you can potentially have a sprawl. If you are not careful you might leave them misconfigured. That could expose a security issue. So really it takes Rancher, it takes our ecosystem partners, like Twistlock, like Aqua. CICD partners, like CloudBees, GitLab. Just everyone really needs to come together, make that, solve that management problem. So not only, uh, you build this Kubernetes infrastructure but then you actually going to get a lot of users and they can use the cluster securely and reliably. Then I think the third step, which I think a lot of work still remain is we really want to focus on growing the footprint of workload, of enterprise workload, in the enterprise. So there the work is honestly just getting started. Anywhere from uh, if you walk into any enterprise you know what percentage of their total workload is running on Kubernetes today? I mean outside of Google and Uber, that percentage is probably very small, right? They're probably in the minority, maybe even in single digit percentage. So, we really need to do a lot of work. You know, we need to uh, Rancher created this project called LongHorn and we also work with a lot of our ecosystem partners in persistence storage area like Portworx, StorageOS, OpenEBS. Lot of us really need to come together and solve this problem of running persistent workload. I mean there was also a lot of talk about it at the keynote this morning, I was very encouraged to hear that. That could easily double, triple the amount of workload that could bring, that could be onboarded into Kubernetes and even experiences like Rio, you know? Make it further simpler, more accessible. That is really in the DNA of Rancher. Rancher wouldn't be surviving and thriving without our insight into how to make our technology consumable and widely adopted. So a lot of work we're doing is really to drive the adoption of Kubernetes in the enterprise beyond, you know, the current state and into something I really don't see in the future, Kubernetes wouldn't be as actually widely used as say AWS or vSphere. That would be my bar for success. Hopefully in a few years we can be talking about that. >> All right, that is a high bar Sheng. We look forward to more conversations with you going forward. Congratulations on the announcement. Great buzz on K3S, and yeah, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you very much. >> For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, back with lots more coverage here from KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2019 in San Diego, you're watching theCUBE. [Upbeat music]

>>Good afternoon, friends. My name is Savannah Peterson here in the Cube Studios live from Detroit, Michigan, where we're at Cuban and Cloud Native Foundation, Cloud Native Con all week. Our last interview of the day served me a real treat and one that I wasn't expecting. It turns out that I am in the presence of two caddies. It's a literal episode of Caddy Shack up here on Cube. John Furrier. I don't think the audience knows that you were a caddy. Tell us about your caddy days. >>I used to caddy when I was a kid at the local country club every weekend. This is amazing. Double loops every weekend. Make some bang, two bags on each shoulder. Caddying for the members where you're going. Now I'm >>On show. Just, just really impressive >>Now. Now I'm caddying for the cube where I caddy all this great content out to the audience. >>He's carrying the story of emerging brands and established companies on their cloud journey. I love it. John, well played. I don't wanna waste any more of this really wonderful individual's time, but since we now have a new trend of talking about everyone's Twitter handle here on the cube, this may be my favorite one of the day, if not Q4 so far. Drew, not reply. AKA Drew ne Drew Nielsen, excuse me, there is here with us from Teleport. Drew, thanks so much for being here. >>Oh, thanks for having me. It's great to be here. >>And so you were a caddy on a whole different level. Can you tell us >>About that? Yeah, so I was in university and I got tired after two years and didn't have a car in LA and met a pro golfer at a golf course and took two years off and traveled around caddying for him and tried to get 'em through Q School. >>This is, this is fantastic. So if you're in school and your parents are telling you to continue going to school, know that you can drop out and be a caddy and still be a very successful television personality. Like both of the gentlemen at some point. >>Well, I never said my parents like >>That decision, but we'll keep our day jobs. Yeah, exactly. And one of them is Cloud Native Security. The hottest topic here at the show. Yep. I want to get into it. You guys are doing some really cool things. Are we? We hear Zero Trust, you know, ransomware and we even, I even talked with the CEO of Dockets morning about container security issues. Sure. There's a lot going on. So you guys are in the middle of teleport. You guys have a unique solution. Tell us what you guys got going on. What do you guys do? What's the solution and what's the problem you solve? >>So Teleport is the first and only identity native infrastructure access solution in the market. So breaking that down, what that really means is identity native being the combination of secret list, getting rid of passwords, Pam Vaults, Key Vaults, Yeah. Passwords written down. Basically the number one source of breach. And 50 to 80% of breaches, depending on whose numbers you want to believe are how organizations get hacked. >>But it's not password 1 23 isn't protecting >>Cisco >>Right >>Now. Well, if you think about when you're securing infrastructure and the second component being zero trust, which assumes the network is completely insecure, right? But everything is validated. Resource to resource security is validated, You know, it assumes work from anywhere. It assumes the security comes back to that resource. And we take the combination of those two into identity, native access where we cryptographically ev, validate identity, but more importantly, we make an absolutely frictionless experience. So engineers can access infrastructure from anywhere at any time. >>I'm just flashing on my roommates, checking their little code, changing Bob login, you know, dongle essentially, and how frustrating that always was. I mean, talk about interrupting workflow was something that's obviously necessary, but >>Well, I mean, talk about frustration if I'm an engineer. Yeah, absolutely. You know, back in the day when you had these three tier monolithic applications, it was kind of simple. But now as you've got modern application development environments Yeah, multi-cloud, hybrid cloud, whatever marketing term around how you talk about this, expanding sort of disparate infrastructure. Engineers are sitting there going from system to system to machine to database to application. I mean, not even a conversation on Kubernetes yet. Yeah. And it's just, you know, every time you pull an engineer or a developer to go to a vault to pull something out, you're pulling them out for 10 minutes. Now, applications today have hundreds of systems, hundreds of microservices. I mean 30 of these a day and nine minutes, 270 minutes times 60. And they also >>Do the math. Well, there's not only that, there's also the breach from manual error. I forgot to change the password. What is that password? I left it open, I left it on >>Cognitive load. >>I mean, it's the manual piece. But even think about it, TR security has to be transparent and engineers are really smart people. And I've talked to a number of organizations who are like, yeah, we've tried to implement security solutions and they fail. Why? They're too disruptive. They're not transparent. And engineers will work their way around them. They'll write it down, they'll do a workaround, they'll backdoor it something. >>All right. So talk about how it works. But I, I mean, I'm getting the big picture here. I love this. Breaking down the silos, making engineers lives easier, more productive. Clearly the theme, everyone they want, they be gonna need. Whoever does that will win it all. How's it work? I mean, you deploying something, is it code, is it in line? It's, >>It's two binaries that you download and really it starts with the core being the identity native access proxy. Okay. So that proxy, I mean, if you look at like the zero trust principles, it all starts with a proxy. Everything connects into that proxy where all the access is gated, it's validated. And you know, from there we have an authorization engine. So we will be the single source of truth for all access across your entire infrastructure. So we bring machines, engineers, databases, applications, Kubernetes, Linux, Windows, we don't care. And we basically take that into a single architecture and single access platform that essentially secures your entire infrastructure. But more importantly, you can do audit. So for all of the organizations that are dealing with FedRAMP, pci, hipaa, we have a complete audit trail down to a YouTube style playback. >>Oh, interesting. We're we're California and ccpa. >>Oh, gdpr. >>Yeah, exactly. It, it, it's, it's a whole shebang. So I, I love, and John, maybe you've heard this term a lot more than I have, but identity native is relatively new to me as as a term. And I suspect you have a very distinct way of defining identity. How do you guys define identity internally? >>So identity is something that is cryptographically validated. It is something you have. So it's not enough. If you look at, you know, credentials today, everyone's like, Oh, I log into my computer, but that's my identity. No, it's not. Right. Those are attributes. Those are something that is secret for a period of time until you write it down. But I can't change my fingerprint. Right. And now I >>Was just >>Thinking of, well no, perfect case in point with touch ID on your meth there. Yeah. It's like when we deliver that cryptographically validated identity, we use these secure modules in like modern laptops or servers. Yeah. To store that identity so that even if you're sitting in front of your computer, you can't get to it. But more importantly, if somebody were to take that and try to be you and try to log in with your fingerprint, it's >>Not, I'm not gonna lie, I love the apple finger thing, you know, it's like, you know, space recognition, like it's really awesome. >>It save me a lot of time. I mean, even when you go through customs and they do the face scan now it actually knows who you are, which is pretty wild in the last time you wanna provide ones. But it just shifted over like maybe three months ago. Well, >>As long as no one chops your finger off like they do in the James Bond movies. >>I mean, we try and keep it a light and fluffy here on the queue, but you know, do a finger teams, we can talk about that >>Too. >>Gabby, I was thinking more minority report, >>But you >>Knows that's exactly what I, what I think of >>Hit that one outta bounds. So I gotta ask, because you said you're targeting engineers, not IT departments. What's, is that, because I in your mind it is now the engineers or what's the, is always the solution more >>Targeted? Well, if you really look at who's dealing with infrastructure on a day-to-day basis, those are DevOps individuals. Those are infrastructure teams, Those are site reliability engineering. And when it, they're the ones who are not only managing the infrastructure, but they're also dealing with the code on it and everything else. And for us, that is who is our primary customer and that's who's doing >>It. What's the biggest problem that you're solving in this use case? Because you guys are nailing it. What's the problem that your identity native solution solves? >>You know, right out of the backs we remove the number one source of breach. And that is taking passwords, secrets and, and keys off the board. That deals with most of the problem right there. But there are really two problems that organizations face. One is scaling. So as you scale, you get more secrets, you get more keys, you get all these things that is all increasing your attack vector in real time. Oh >>Yeah. Across teams locations. I can't even >>Take your pick. Yeah, it's across clouds, right? Any of it >>On-prem doesn't. >>Yeah. Any of it. We, and we allow you to scale, but do it securely and the security is transparent and your engineers will absolutely love it. What's the most important thing about this product Engineers. Absolutely. >>What are they saying? What are some of those examples? Anecdotally, pull boats out from engineering. >>You're too, we should have invent, we should have invented this ourselves. Or you know, we have run into a lot of customers who have tried to home brew this and they're like, you know, we spend an in nor not of hours on it >>And IT or they got legacy from like Microsoft or other solutions. >>Sure, yeah. Any, but a lot of 'em is just like, I wish I had done it myself. Or you know, this is what security should be. >>It makes so much sense and it gives that the team such a peace of mind. I mean, you never know when a breach is gonna come, especially >>It's peace of mind. But I think for engineers, a lot of times it deals with the security problem. Yeah. Takes it off the table so they can do their jobs. Yeah. With zero friction. Yeah. And you know, it's all about speed. It's all about velocity. You know, go fast, go fast, go fast. And that's what we enable >>Some of the benefits to them is they get to save time, focus more on, on task that they need to work on. >>Exactly. >>And get the >>Job done. And on top of it, they answer the audit and compliance mail every time it comes. >>Yeah. Why are people huge? Honestly, why are people doing this? Because, I mean, identity is just such an hard nut to crack. Everyone's got their silos, Vendors having clouds have 'em. Identity is the most fragmented thing on >>The planet. And it has been fragmented ever since my first RSA conference. >>I know. So will we ever get this do over? Is there a driver? Is there a market force? Is this the time? >>I think the move to modern applications and to multi-cloud is driving this because as those application stacks get more verticalized, you just, you cannot deal with the productivity >>Here. And of course the next big thing is super cloud and that's coming fast. Savannah, you know, You know that's Rocket. >>John is gonna be the thought leader and keyword leader of the word super cloud. >>Super Cloud is enabling super services as the cloud cast. Brian Gracely pointed out on his Sunday podcast of which if that happens, Super Cloud will enable super apps in a new architectural >>List. Please don't, and it'll be super, just don't. >>Okay. Right. So what are you guys up to next? What's the big hot spot for the company? What are you guys doing? What are you guys, What's the idea guys hiring? You put the plug in. >>You know, right now we are focused on delivering the best identity, native access platform that we can. And we will continue to support our customers that want to use Kubernetes, that want to use any different type of infrastructure. Whether that's Linux, Windows applications or databases. Wherever they are. >>Are, are your customers all of a similar DNA or are you >>No, they're all over the map. They range everything from tech companies to financial services to, you know, fractional property. >>You seem like someone everyone would need. >>Absolutely. >>And I'm not just saying that to be a really clean endorsement from the Cube, but >>If you were doing DevOps Yeah. And any type of forward-leaning shift, left engineering, you need us because we are basically making security as code a reality across your entire infrastructure. >>Love this. What about the team dna? Are you in a scale growth stage right now? What's going on? Absolutely. Sounds I was gonna say, but I feel like you would have >>To be. Yeah, we're doing, we're, we have a very positive outlook and you know, even though the economic time is what it is, we're doing very well meeting. >>How's the location? Where's the location of the headquarters now? With remote work is pretty much virtual. >>Probably. We're based in downtown Oakland, California. >>Woohoo. Bay area representing on this stage right now. >>Nice. Yeah, we have a beautiful office right in downtown Oakland and yeah, it's been great. Awesome. >>Love that. And are you hiring right now? I bet people might be. I feel like some of our cube watchers are here waiting to figure out their next big play. So love to hear that. Absolutely love to hear that. Besides Drew, not reply, if people want to join your team or say hello to you and tell you how brilliant you looked up here, or ask about your caddy days and maybe venture a guest to who that golfer may have been that you were CAD Inc. For, what are the best ways for them to get in touch with you? >>You can find me on LinkedIn. >>Great. Fantastic. John, anything else >>From you? Yeah, I mean, I just think security is paramount. This is just another example of where the innovation has to kind of break through without good identity, everything could cripple. Then you start getting into the silos and you can start getting into, you know, tracking it. You got error user errors, you got, you know, one of the biggest security risks. People just leave systems open, they don't even know it's there. So like, I mean this is just, just identity is the critical linchpin to, to solve for in security to me. And that's totally >>Agree. We even have a lot of customers who use us just to access basic cloud consoles. Yeah. >>So I was actually just gonna drive there a little bit because I think that, I'm curious, it feels like a solution for obviously complex systems and stacks, but given the utility and what sounds like an extreme ease of use, I would imagine people use this for day-to-day stuff within their, >>We have customers who use it to access their AWS consoles. We have customers who use it to access Grafana dashboards. You know, for, since we're sitting here at coupon accessing a Lens Rancher, all of the amazing DevOps tools that are out there. >>Well, I mean true. I mean, you think about all the reasons why people don't adopt this new federated approach or is because the IT guys did it and the world we're moving into, the developers are in charge. And so we're seeing the trend where developers are taking the DevOps and the data and the security teams are now starting to reset the guardrails. What's your >>Reaction to that? Well, you know, I would say that >>Over the top, >>Well I would say that you know, your DevOps teams and your infrastructure teams and your engineers, they are the new king makers. Yeah. Straight up. Full stop. >>You heard it first folks. >>And that's >>A headline right >>There. That is a headline. I mean, they are the new king makers and, but they are being forced to do it as securely as possible. And our job is really to make that as easy and as frictionless as possible. >>Awesome. >>And it sounds like you're absolutely nailing it. Drew, thank you so much for being on the show. Thanks for having today. This has been an absolute pleasure, John, as usual a joy. And thank all of you for tuning in to the Cube Live here at CU Con from Detroit, Michigan. We look forward to catching you for day two tomorrow.

>> Announcer: TheCube presents HPE Discover 2022, brought to you by HPE. >> Welcome back to HPE Discover 2022, theCube's continuous wall to wall coverage, Dave Vellante with John Furrier. Keith Basil is here as the General Manager for the Edge Business Unit at SUSE. Keith, welcome to theCube, man good to see you. >> Great to be here, it's my first time here and I've seen many shows and you guys are the best. >> Thanks you. >> Thank you very much. >> Big fans of SUSE you know, we've had Melissa on several times. >> Yes. >> Let's start with kind of what you guys are doing here at Discover. >> Well, we're here to support our wonderful partner HPE, as you know SUSE's products and services are now being integrated into the GreenLake offering. So that's very exciting for us. >> Yeah. Now tell us about your background. It's quite interesting you've kind of been in the mix in some really cool places. Tell us a little bit about yourself. >> Probably the most relevant was I used to work at Red Hat, I was a Product Manager working in security for OpenStack and OpenShift working with DOD customers in the intelligence community. Left Red Hat to go to Rancher, started out there as VP of Edge Solutions and then transitioned over to VP of Product for all of Rancher. And then obviously we know SUSE acquired Rancher and as of November 1st, of 2020, I think it was. >> Dave: 2020. >> Yeah, yeah time is flying. I came over, I still remained VP of Product for Rancher for Cloud Native Infrastructure. And I was working on the edge strategy for SUSE and about four months ago we internally built three business units, one for the Linux business, one for enterprise container management, basically the Rancher business, and then the newly minted business unit was the Edge business. And I was offered the role to be GM for that business unit and I happily accepted it. >> Very cool. I mean the market dynamics since the 2018 have changed dramatically, IBM bought Red Hat. A lot of customers said, "Hmm let's see what other alternatives are out there." SUSE popped its head up. You know, Melissa's been quite, you know forthcoming about that. And then you acquire Rancher in 2020, IPO in 2021. That kind of gives you another tailwind. So there's a new market when you go from 2018 to 2022, it's a completely changed dynamic. >> Yes and I'm going to answer your question from the Rancher perspective first, because as we were at Rancher, we had experimented with different flavors of the underlying OS underneath Kubernetes or Kubernetes offerings. And we had, as I said, different flavors, we weren't really operating system people for example. And so post-acquisition, you know, one of my internal roles was to bring the two halves of the house together, the philosophies together where you had a cloud native side in the form of Rancher, very progressive leading innovative products with Rancher with K3s for example. And then you had, you know, really strong enterprise roots around compliance and security, secure supply chain with the enterprise grade Linux. And what we found out was SUSE had been building a version of Linux called SLE Micro, and it was perfectly designed for Edge. And so what we've done over that time period since the acquisition is that we've brought those two things together. And now we're using Kubernetes directives and philosophies to manage all the way down to the operating system. And it is a winning strategy for our customers. And we're really excited about that. >> And what does that product look like? Is that a managed service? How are customers consuming that? >> It could be a managed service, it's something that our managed service providers could embrace and offer to their customers. But we have some customers who are very sophisticated who want to do the whole thing themselves. And so they stand up Rancher, you know at a centralized location at cloud GreenLake for example which is why this is very relevant. And then that control plane if you will, manages thousands of downstream clusters that are running K3s at these Edge locations. And so that's what the complete stack looks like. And so when you add the Linux capability to that scenario we can now roll a new operating system, new kernel, CVE updates, build that as an OCI container image registry format, right? Put that into a registry and then have that thing cascade down through all the downstream clusters and up through a rolling window upgrade of the operating system underneath Kubernetes. And it is a tremendous amount of value when you talk to customers that have this massive scale. >> What's the impact of that, just take us through what happens next. Is it faster? Is it more performant? Is it more reliable? Is it processing data at the Edge? What's the impact of the customer? >> Yes, the answer is yes to that. So let's actually talk about one customer that we we highlighted in our keynote, which is Home Depot. So as we know, Kubernetes is on fire, right? It is the technology everybody's after. So by being in demand, the skills needed, the people shortage is real and people are commanding very high, you know, salaries. And so it's hard to attract talent is the bottom line. And so using our software and our solution and our approach it allows people to scale their existing teams to preserve those precious human resources and that human capital. So that now you can take a team of seven people and manage let's say 3000 downstream stores. >> Yeah it's like the old SRE model for DevOps. >> Correct. >> It's not servers they're managing one to many. >> Yes. >> One to many clusters. >> Correct so you've got the cluster, the life cycle of the cluster. You already have the application life cycle with the classic DevOps. And now what we've built and added to the stack is going down one step further, clicking down if you will to managing the life cycle of the operating system. So you have the SUSE enterprise build chain, all the value, the goodness, compliance, security. Again, all of that comes with that build process. And now we're hooking that into a cloud native flow that ends up downstream in our customers. >> So what I'm hearing is your Edge strategy is not some kind of bespoke, "Hey, I'm going after Edge." It connects to the entire value chain. >> Yes, yeah it's a great point. We want to reuse the existing philosophies that are being used today. We don't want to create something net new, cause that's really the point in leverage that we get by having these teams, you know, do these things at scale. Another point I'm going to make here is that we've defined the Edge into three segments. One is the near Edge, which is the realm of the-- >> I was going to ask about this, great. >> The telecommunications companies. So those use cases and profiles look very different. They're almost data center lite, right? So you've had regional locations, central offices where they're standing up gear classic to you machines, right? So things you find from HPE, for example. And then once you get on the other side of the access device right? The cable modem, the router, whatever it is you get into what we call the far Edge. And this is where the majority of the use cases reside. This is where the diversity of use cases presents itself as well. >> Also security challenges. >> Security challenges. Yes and we can talk about that following in a moment. And then finally, if you look at that far Edge as a box, right? Think of it as a layer two domain, a network. Inside that location, on that network you'll have industrial IOT devices. Those devices are too small to run a full blown operating system such as Linux and Kubernetes in the stack but they do have software on them, right? So we need to be able to discover those devices and manage those devices and pull data from those devices and do it in a cloud native way. So that's what we called the tiny Edge. And I stole that name from the folks over at Microsoft. Kate and Edrick are are leading a project upstream called Akri, A-K-R-I, and we are very much heavily involved in Akri because it will discover the industrial IOT devices and plug those into a local Kubernetes cluster running at that location. >> And Home Depot would fit into the near edge is that correct? >> Yes. >> Yeah okay. >> So each Home Depot store, just to bring it home, is a far Edge location and they have over 2,600 of these locations. >> So far Edge? You would put far Edge? >> Keith: Far Edge yes. >> Far edge, okay. >> John: Near edge is like Metro. Think of Metro. >> And Teleco, communication, service providers MSOs, multi-service operators. Those guys are-- >> Near Edge. >> The near edge, yes. >> Don't you think, John's been asking all week about machine learning and AI, in that tiny Edge. We think there's going to be a lot of AI influencing. >> Keith: Oh absolutely. >> Real time. And it actually is going to need some kind of lighter weight you know, platform. How do you fit into that? >> So going on this, like this model I just described if you go back and look at the SUSECON 2022 demo keynote that I did, we actually on stage stood up that exact stack. So we had a single Intel nook running SLE Micro as we mentioned earlier, running K3s and we plugged into that device, a USB camera which was automatically detected and it loaded Akri and gave us a driver to plug it into a container. Now, to answer your question, that is the point in time where we bring in the ML and the AI, the inference and the pattern recognition, because that camera when you showed the SUSE plush doll, it actually recognized it and put a QR code up on the screen. So that's where it all comes together. So we tried to showcase that in a complete demo. >> Last week, I was here in Vegas for an event Amazon and AWS put on called re:Mars, machine learning, automation, robotics, and space. >> Okay. >> Kind of but basically for me was an industrial edge show. Cause The space is the ultimate like glam to edge is like, you're doing stuff in space that's pretty edgy so to speak, pun intended. But the industrial side of the Edge is going to, we think, accelerate with machine learning. >> Keith: Absolutely. >> And with these kinds of new portable I won't say flash compute or just like connected power sources software. The industrial is going to move really fast. We've been kind of in a snails pace at the Edge, in my opinion. What's your reaction to that? Do you think we're going to see a mass acceleration of growth at the Edge industrial, basically physical, the physical world. >> Yes, first I agree with your assessment okay, wholeheartedly, so much so that it's my strategy to go after the tiny Edge space and be a leader in the industrial IOT space from an open source perspective. So yes. So a few things to answer your question we do have K3s in space. We have a customer partner called Hypergiant where they've launched satellites with K3s running in space same model, that's a far Edge location, probably the farthest Edge location we have. >> John: Deep Edge, deep space. >> Here at HPE Discover, we have a business unit called SUSE RGS, Rancher Government Services, which focuses on the US government and DOD and IC, right? So little bit of the world that I used to work in my past career. Brandon Gulla the CTO of of that unit gave a great presentation about what we call the tactical Edge. And so the same technology that we're using on the commercial and the manufacturing side. >> Like the Jedi contract, the tactical military Edge I think. >> Yes so imagine some of these military grade industrial IOT devices in a disconnected environment. The same software stack and technology would apply to that use case as well. >> So basically the tactical Edge is life? We're humans, we're at the Edge? >> Or it's maintenance, right? So maybe it's pulling sensors from aircraft, Humvees, submarines and doing predictive analysis on the maintenance for those items, those assets. >> All these different Edges, they underscore the diversity that you were just talking Keith and we also see a new hardware architecture emerging, a lot of arm based stuff. Just take a look at what Tesla's doing at the tiny Edge. Keith Basil, thanks so much. >> Sure. >> For coming on theCube. >> John: Great to have you. >> Grateful to be here. >> Awesome story. Okay and thank you for watching. This is Dave Vellante for John Furrier. This is day three of HPE Discover 2022. You're watching theCube, the leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: theCube presents HPE Discover 2022, brought to you by HPE. >> Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Las Vegas. This is Lisa Martin with Dave Vellante live at HPE Discover '22. Dave, it's great to be here. This is the first Discover in three years and we're here with about 7,000 of our closest friends. >> Yeah. You know, I tweeted out this, I think I've been to 14 Discovers between the U.S. and Europe, and I've never seen a Discover with so much energy. People are not only psyched to get back together, that's for sure, but I think HPE's got a little spring in its step and it's feeling more confident than maybe some of the past Discovers that I've been to. >> I think so, too. I think there's definitely a spring in the step and we're going to be unpacking some of that spring next with one of our alumni who joins us, Keith White's here, the executive vice president and general manager of GreenLake Cloud Services. Welcome back. >> Great. You all thanks for having me. It's fantastic that you're here and you're right, the energy is crazy at this show. It's been a lot of pent up demand, but I think what you heard from Antonio today is our strategy's changing dramatically and it's really embracing our customers and our partners. So it's great. >> Embracing the customers and the partners, the ecosystem expansion is so critical, especially the last couple of years with the acceleration of digital transformation. So much challenge in every industry, but lots of momentum on the GreenLake side, I was looking at the Q2 numbers, triple digit growth in orders, 65,000 customers over 70 services, eight new services announced just this morning. Talk to us about the momentum of GreenLake. >> The momentum's been fantastic. I mean, I'll tell you, the fact that customers are really now reaccelerating their digital transformation, you probably heard a lot, but there was a delay as we went through the pandemic. So now it's reaccelerating, but everyone's going to a hybrid, multi-cloud environment. Data is the new currency. And obviously, everyone's trying to push out to the Edge and GreenLake is that edge to cloud platform. So we're just seeing tons of momentum, not just from the customers, but partners, we've enabled the platform so partners can plug into it and offer their solutions to our customers as well. So it's exciting and it's been fun to see the momentum from an order standpoint, but one of the big numbers that you may not be aware of is we have over a 96% retention rate. So once a customer's on GreenLake, they stay on it because they're seeing the value, which has been fantastic. >> The value is absolutely critically important. We saw three great big name customers. The Home Depot was on stage this morning, Oak Ridge National Laboratory was as well, Evil Geniuses. So the momentum in the enterprise is clearly present. >> Yeah. It is. And we're hearing it from a lot of customers. And I think you guys talk a lot about, hey, there's the cloud, data and Edge, these big mega trends that are happening out there. And you look at a company like Barclays, they're actually reinventing their entire private cloud infrastructure, running over a hundred thousand workloads on HPE GreenLake. Or you look at a company like Zenseact, who's basically they do autonomous driving software. So they're doing massive parallel computing capabilities. They're pulling in hundreds of petabytes of data to then make driving safer and so you're seeing it on the data front. And then on the Edge, you look at anyone like a Patrick Terminal, for example. They run a whole terminal shipyard. They're getting data in from exporters, importers, regulators, the works and they have to real-time, analyze that data and say, where should this thing go? Especially with today's supply chain challenges, they have to be so efficient, that it's just fantastic. >> It was interesting to hear Fidelma, Keith, this morning on stage. It was the first time I'd really seen real clarity on the platform itself and that it's obviously her job is, okay, here's the platform, now, you guys got to go build on top of it. Both inside of HPE, but also externally, so your ecosystem partners. So, you mentioned the financial services companies like Barclays. We see those companies moving into the digital world by offering some of their services in building their own clouds. >> Keith: That's right. >> What's your vision for GreenLake in terms of being that platform, to assist them in doing that and the data component there? >> I think that was one of the most exciting things about not just showcasing the platform, but also the announcement of our private cloud enterprise, Cloud Service. Because in essence, what you're doing is you're creating that framework for what most companies are doing, which is they're becoming cloud service providers for their internal business units. And they're having to do showback type scenarios, chargeback type scenarios, deliver cloud services and solutions inside the organization so that open platform, you're spot on. For our ecosystem, it's fantastic, but for our customers, they get to leverage it as well for their own internal IT work that's happening. >> So you talk about hybrid cloud, you talk about private cloud, what's your vision? You know, we use this term Supercloud. This in a layer that goes across clouds. What's your thought about that? Because you have an advantage at the Edge with Aruba. Everybody talks about the Edge, but they talk about it more in the context of near Edge. >> That's right. >> We talked to Verizon and they're going far Edge, you guys are participating in that, as well as some of your partners in Red Hat and others. What's your vision for that? What I call Supercloud, is that part of the strategy? Is that more longer term or you think that's pipe dream by Dave? >> No, I think it's really thoughtful, Dave, 'cause it has to be part of the strategy. What I hear, so for example, Ford's a great example. They run Azure, AWS, and then they made a big deal with Google cloud for their internal cars and they run HPE GreenLake. So they're saying, hey, we got four clouds. How do we sort of disaggregate the usage of that? And Chris Lund, who is the VP of information technology at Liberty Mutual Insurance, he talked about it today, where he said, hey, I can deliver these services to my business unit. And they don't know, am I running on the public cloud? Am I running on our HPE GreenLake cloud? Like it doesn't matter to the end user, we've simplified that so much. So I think your Supercloud idea is super thoughtful, not to use the super term too much, that I'm super excited about because it's really clear of what our customers are trying to accomplish, which it's not about the cloud, it's about the solution and the business outcome that gets to work. >> Well, and I think it is different. I mean, it's not like the last 10 years where it was like, hey, I got my stuff to work on the different clouds and I'm replicating as much as I can, the cloud experience on-prem. I think you guys are there now and then to us, the next layer is that ecosystem enablement. So how do you see the ecosystem evolving and what role does Green Lake play there? >> Yeah. This has been really exciting. We had Tarkan Maner who runs Nutanix and Karl Strohmeyer from Equinix on stage with us as well. And what's happening with the ecosystem is, I used to say, one plus one has to equal three for our customers. So when you bring these together, it has to be that scenario, but we are joking that one plus one plus one equals five now because everything has a partner component to it. It's not about the platform, it's not about the specific cloud service, it's actually about the solution that gets delivered. And that's done with an ISV, it's done with a Colo, it's done even with the Hyperscalers. We have Azure Stack HCI as a fully integrated solution. It happens with managed service providers, delivering managed services out to their folks as well. So that platform being fully partner enabled and that ecosystem being able to take advantage of that, and so we have to jointly go to market to our customers for their business needs, their business outcomes. >> Some of the expansion of the ecosystem. we just had Red Hat on in the last hour talking about- >> We're so excited to partner with them. >> Right, what's going on there with OpenShift and Ansible and Rel, but talk about the customer influence in terms of the expansion of the ecosystem. We know we've got to meet customers where they are, they're driving it, but we know that HPE has a big presence in the enterprise and some pretty big customer names. How are they from a demand perspective? >> Well, this is where I think the uniqueness of GreenLake has really changed HPE's approach with our customers. Like in all fairness, we used to be a vendor that provided hardware components for, and we talked a lot about hardware costs and blah, blah, blah. Now, we're actually a partner with those customers. What's the business outcome you're requiring? What's the SLA that we offer you for what you're trying to accomplish? And to do that, we have to have it done with partners. And so even on the storage front, Qumulo or Cohesity. On the backup and recovery disaster recovery, yes, we have our own products, but we also partner with great companies like Veeam because it's customer choice, it's an open platform. And the Red Hat announcement is just fantastic. Because, hey, from a container platform standpoint, OpenShift provides 5,000 plus customers, 90% of the fortune 500 that they engage with, with that opportunity to take GreenLake with OpenShift and implement that container capabilities on-prem. So it's fantastic. >> We were talking after the keynote, Keith Townsend came on, myself and Lisa. And he was like, okay, what about startups? 'Cause that's kind of a hallmark of cloud. And we felt like, okay, startups are not the ideal customer profile necessarily for HPE. Although we saw Evil Geniuses up on stage, but I threw out and I'd love to get your thoughts on this that within companies, incumbents, you have entrepreneurs, they're trying to build their own clouds or Superclouds as I use the term, is that really the target for the developer audience? We've talked a lot about OpenShift with their other platforms, who says as a partner- >> We just announced another extension with Rancher and- >> Yeah. I saw that. And you have to have optionality for developers. Is that the way we should think about the target audience from a developer standpoint? >> I think it will be as we go forward. And so what Fidelma presented on stage was the new developer platform, because we have come to realize, we have to engage with the developers. They're the ones building the apps. They're the ones that are delivering the solutions for the most part. So yeah, I think at the enterprise space, we have a really strong capability. I think when you get into the sort of mid-market SMB standpoint, what we're doing is we're going directly to the managed service and cloud service providers and directly to our Disty and VARS to have them build solutions on top of GreenLake, powered by GreenLake, to then deliver to their customers because that's what the customer wants. I think on the developer side of the house, we have to speak their language, we have to provide their capabilities because they're going to start articulating apps that are going to use both the public cloud and our on-prem capabilities with GreenLake. And so that's got to work very well. And so you've heard us talk about API based and all of that sort of scenario. So it's an exciting time for us, again, moving HPE strategy into something very different than where we were before. >> Well, Keith, that speaks to ecosystem. So I don't know if you were at Microsoft, when the sweaty Steve Ballmer was working with the developers, developers. That's about ecosystem, ecosystem, ecosystem. I don't expect we're going to see Antonio replicating that. But that really is the sort of what you just described is the ecosystem developing on top of GreenLake. That's critical. >> Yeah. And this is one of the things I learned. So, being at Microsoft for as long as I was and leading the Azure business from a commercial standpoint, it was all about the partner and I mean, in all fairness, almost every solution that gets delivered has some sort of partner component to it. Might be an ISV app, might be a managed service, might be in a Colo, might be with our hybrid cloud, with our Hyperscalers, but everything has a partner component to it. And so one of the things I learned with Azure is, you have to sell through and with your ecosystem and go to that customer with a joint solution. And that's where it becomes so impactful and so powerful for what our customers are trying to accomplish. >> When we think about the data gravity and the value of data that put massive potential that it has, even Antonio talked about it this morning, being data rich but insights poor for a long time. >> Yeah. >> Every company in today's day and age has to be a data company to be competitive, there's no more option for that. How does GreenLake empower companies? GreenLake and its ecosystem empower companies to really live being data companies so that they can meet their customers where they are. >> I think it's a really great point because like we said, data's the new currency. Data's the new gold that's out there and people have to get their arms around their data estate. So then they can make these business decisions, these business insights and garner that. And Dave, you mentioned earlier, the Edge is bringing a ton of new data in, and my Zenseact example is a good one. But with GreenLake, you now have a platform that can do data and data management and really sort of establish and secure the data for you. There's no data latency, there's no data egress charges. And which is what we typically run into with the public cloud. But we also support a wide range of databases, open source, as well as the commercial ones, the sequels and those types of scenarios. But what really comes to life is when you have to do analytics on that and you're doing AI and machine learning. And this is one of the benefits I think that people don't realize with HPE is, the investments we've made with Cray, for example, we have and you saw on stage today, the largest supercomputer in the world. That depth that we have as a company, that then comes down into AI and analytics for what we can do with high performance compute, data simulations, data modeling, analytics, like that is something that we, as a company, have really deep, deep capabilities on. So it's exciting to see what we can bring to customers all for that spectrum of data. >> I was excited to see Frontier, they actually achieve, we hosted an event, co-produced event with HPE during the pandemic, Exascale day. >> Yeah. >> But we weren't quite at Exascale, we were like right on the cusp. So to see it actually break through was awesome. So HPC is clearly a differentiator for Hewlett Packard Enterprise. And you talk about the egress. What are some of the other differentiators? Why should people choose GreenLake? >> Well, I think the biggest thing is, that it's truly is a edge to cloud platform. And so you talk about Aruba and our capabilities with a network attached and network as a service capabilities, like that's fairly unique. You don't see that with the other companies. You mentioned earlier to me that compute capabilities that we've had as a company and the storage capabilities. But what's interesting now is that we're sort of taking all of that expertise and we're actually starting to deliver these cloud services that you saw on stage, private cloud, AI and machine learning, high performance computing, VDI, SAP. And now we're actually getting into these industry solutions. So we talked last year about electronic medical records, this year, we've talked about 5g. Now, we're talking about customer loyalty applications. So we're really trying to move from these sort of baseline capabilities and yes, containers and VMs and bare metal, all that stuff is important, but what's really important is the services that you run on top of that, 'cause that's the outcomes that our customers are looking at. >> Should we expect you to be accelerating? I mean, look at what you did with Azure. You look at what AWS does in terms of the feature acceleration. Should we expect HPE to replicate? Maybe not to that scale, but in a similar cadence, we're starting to see that. Should we expect that actually to go faster? >> I think you couched it really well because it's not as much about the quantity, but the quality and the uses. And so what we've been trying to do is say, hey, what is our swim lane? What is our sweet spot? Where do we have a superpower? And where are the areas that we have that superpower and how can we bring those solutions to our customers? 'Cause I think, sometimes, you get over your skis a bit, trying to do too much, or people get caught up in the big numbers, versus the, hey, what's the real meat behind it. What's the tangible outcome that we can deliver to customers? And we see just a massive TAM. I want to say my last analysis was around $42 billion in the next three years, TAM and the Azure service on-prem space. And so we think that there's nothing but upside with the core set of workloads, the core set of solutions and the cloud services that we bring. So yeah, we'll continue to innovate, absolutely, amen, but we're not in a, hey we got to get to 250 this and 300 that, we want to keep it as focused as we can. >> Well, the vast majority of the revenue in the public cloud is still compute. I mean, not withstanding, Microsoft obviously does a lot in SaaS, but I'm talking about the infrastructure and service. Still, well, I would say over 50%. And so there's a lot of the services that don't make any revenue and there's that long tail, if I hear your strategy, you're not necessarily going after that. You're focusing on the quality of those high value services and let the ecosystem sort of bring in the rest. >> This is where I think the, I mean, I love that you guys are asking me about the ecosystem because this is where their sweet spot is. They're the experts on hyper-converged or databases, a service or VDI, or even with SAP, like they're the experts on that piece of it. So we're enabling that together to our customers. And so I don't want to give you the impression that we're not going to innovate. Amen. We absolutely are, but we want to keep it within that, that again, our swim lane, where we can really add true value based on our expertise and our capabilities so that we can confidently go to customers and say, hey, this is a solution that's going to deliver this business value or this capability for you. >> The partners might be more comfortable with that than, we only have one eye sleep with one eye open in the public cloud, like, okay, what are they going to, which value of mine are they grab next? >> You're spot on. And again, this is where I think, the power of what an Edge to cloud platform like HPE GreenLake can do for our customers, because it is that sort of, I mentioned it, one plus one equals three kind of scenario for our customers so. >> So we can leave your customers, last question, Keith. I know we're only on day one of the main summit, the partner growth summit was yesterday. What's the feedback been from the customers and the ecosystem in terms of validating the direction that HPE is going? >> Well, I think the fantastic thing has been to hear from our customers. So I mentioned in my keynote recently, we had Liberty Mutual and we had Texas Children's Hospital, and they're implementing HPE GreenLake in a variety of different ways, from a private cloud standpoint to a data center consolidation. They're seeing sustainability goals happen on top of that. They're seeing us take on management for them so they can take their limited resources and go focus them on innovation and value added scenarios. So the flexibility and cost that we're providing, and it's just fantastic to hear this come to life in a real customer scenario because what Texas Children is trying to do is improve patient care for women and children like who can argue with that. >> Nobody. >> So, yeah. It's great. >> Awesome. Keith, thank you so much for joining Dave and me on the program, talking about all of the momentum with HPE Greenlake. >> Always. >> You can't walk in here without feeling the momentum. We appreciate your insights and your time. >> Always. Thank you you for the time. Yeah. Great to see you as well. >> Likewise. >> Thanks. >> For Keith White and Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCube live, day one coverage from the show floor at HPE Discover '22. We'll be right back with our next guest. (gentle music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: TheCUBE presents KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe, 2022. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to Valencia, Spain, a KubeCon, CloudNativeCon Europe, 2022. I'm your host, Keith Townsend alongside Paul Gillon, Senior Editor, Enterprise Architecture for SiliconANGLE. We are, I think at the half point way point this to be fair we've talked to a lot of folks in open source in general. What's the difference between open source communities and these closed source communities that we attend so so much? >> Well open source is just it's that it's open it's anybody can contribute. There are a set of rules that manage how your contributions are reflected in the code base. What has to be shared, what you can keep to yourself but the it's an entirely different vibe. You know, you go to a conventional conference where there's a lot of proprietary being sold and it's all about cash. It's all about money changing hands. It's all about doing the deal. And open source conferences I think are more, they're more transparent and yeah money changes hands, but it seems like the objective of the interaction is not to consummate a deal to the degree that it is at a more conventional computer conference. >> And I think that can create an uneven side effect. And we're going to talk about that a little bit with, honestly a friend of mine Alex Ellis, founder of OpenFaaS. Alex welcome back to the program. >> Thank you, good to see Keith. >> So how long you've been doing OpenFaaS? >> Well, I first had this idea that serverless and function should be run on your own hardware back in 2016. >> Wow and I remember seeing you at DockerCon EU, was that in 2017? >> Yeah, I think that's when we first met and Simon Foskett took us out to dinner and we got chatting. And I just remember you went back to your hotel room after the presentation. You just had your iPhone out and your headphones you were talking about how you tried to OpenWhisk and really struggled with it and OpenFaaS sort of got you where you needed to be to sort of get some value out of the solution. >> And I think that's the magic of these open source communities in open source conferences that you can try stuff, you can struggle with it, come to a conference either get some advice or go in another direction and try something like a OpenFaaS. But we're going to talk about the business perspective. >> Yeah. >> Give us some, like give us some hero numbers from the project. What types of organizations are using OpenFaaS and what are like the download and stars all those, the ways you guys measure project success. >> So there's a few ways that you hear this talked about at KubeCon specifically. And one of the metrics that you hear the most often is GitHub stars. Now a GitHub star means that somebody with their laptop like yourself has heard of a project or seen it on their phone and clicked a button that's it. There's not really an indication of adoption but of interest. And that might be fleeting and a blog post you might publish you might bump that up by 2000. And so OpenFaaS quite quickly got a lot of stars which encouraged me to go on and do more with it. And it's now just crossed 30,000 across the whole organization of about 40 different open source repositories. >> Wow that is a number. >> Now you are in ecosystem where Knative is also taken off. And can you distinguish your approach to serverless or FaaS to Knatives? >> Yes so, Knative isn't an approach to FaaS. That's simply put and if you listen to Aikas Ville from the Knative project, he was working inside Google and wished that Kubernetes would do a little bit more than what it did. And so he started an initiative with some others to start bringing more abstractions like Auto Scaling, revision management so he can have two versions of code and and shift traffic around. And that's really what they're trying to do is add onto Kubernetes and make it do some of the things that a platform might do. Now OpenFaaS started from a different angle and frankly, two years earlier. >> There was no Kubernetes when you started it. >> It kind of led in the space and and built out that ecosystem. So the idea was, I was working with Lambda and AWS Alexa skills. I wanted to run them on my own hardware and I couldn't. And so OpenFaaS from the beginning started from that developer experience of here's my code, run it for me. Knative is a set of extensions that may be a building block but you're still pretty much working with Kubernetes. We get calls come through. And actually recently I can't tell you who they are but there's a very large telecommunications provider in the US that was using OpenFaaS, like yourself heard of Knative and in the hype they switched. And then they switched back again recently to OpenFaaS and they've come to us for quite a large commercial deal. >> So did they find Knative to be more restrictive? >> No, it's the opposite. It's a lot less opinionated. It's more like building blocks and you are dealing with a lot more detail. It's a much bigger system to manage, but don't get me wrong. I mean the guys are very friendly. They have their sort of use cases that they pursue. Google's now donated the project to CNCF. And so they're running it that way. Now it doesn't mean that there aren't FaaS on top of it. Red Hat have a serverless product VMware have one. But OpenFaaS because it owns the whole stack can get you something that's always been very lean, simple to use to the point that Keith in his hotel room installed it and was product with it in an evening without having to be a Kubernetes expert. >> And that is and if you remember back that was very anti-Kubernetes. >> Yes. >> It was not a platform I thought that was. And for some of the very same reasons, I didn't think it was very user friendly. You know, I tried open with I'm thinking what enterprise is going to try this thing, especially without the handholding and the support needed to do that. And you know, something pretty interesting that happened as I shared this with you on Twitter, I was having a briefing by a big microprocessor company, one of the big two. And they were showing me some of the work they were doing in Cloud-native and the way that they stretch test the system to show me Auto Scaling. Is that they bought up a OpenFaaS what is it? The well text that just does a bunch of, >> The cows maybe. >> Yeah the cows. That does just a bunch of texts. And it just all, and I'm like one I was amazed at is super simple app. And the second one was the reason why they discovered it was because of that simplicity is just a thing that's in your store that you can just download and test. And it was open fast. And it was this big company that you had no idea that was using >> No >> OpenFaaS. >> No. >> How prevalent is that? That you're always running into like these surprises of who's using the solution. >> There are a lot of top tier companies, billion dollar companies that use software that I've worked on. And it's quite common. The main issue you have with open source is you don't have like the commercial software you talked about, the relationships. They don't tell you they're using it until it breaks. And then they may come in incognito with a personal email address asking for things. What they don't want to do often is lend their brands or support you. And so it is a big challenge. However, early on, when I met you, BT, live person the University of Washington, and a bunch of other companies had told us they were using it. We were having discussions with them took them to Kubecon and did talks with them. You can go and look at them in the video player. However, when I left my job in 2019 to work on this full time I went to them and I said, you know, use it in production it's useful for you. We've done a talk, we really understand the business value of how it saves you time. I haven't got a way to fund it and it won't exist unless you help they were like sucks to be you. >> Wow that's brutal. So, okay let me get this right. I remember the story 2019, you leave your job. You say I'm going to do OpenFaaS and support this project 100% of your time. If there's no one contributing to the project from a financial perspective how do you make money? I've always pitched open source because you're the first person that I've met that ran an open source project. And I always pitched them people like you who work on it on their side time. But they're not the Knatives of the world, the SDOs, they have full time developers. Sponsored by Google and Microsoft, etc. If you're not sponsored how do you make money off of open source? >> If this is the million dollar question, really? How do you make money from something that is completely free? Where all of the value has already been captured by a company and they have no incentive to support you build a relationship or send you money in any way. >> And no one has really figured it out. Arguably Red Hat is the only one that's pulled it off. >> Well, people do refer to Red Hat and they say the Red Hat model but I think that was a one off. And we quite, we can kind of agree about that in a business. However, I eventually accepted the fact that companies don't pay for something they can get for free. It took me a very long time to get around that because you know, with open source enthusiast built a huge community around this project, almost 400 people have contributed code to it over the years. And we have had full-time people working on it on and off. And there's some people who really support it in their working hours or at home on the weekends. But no, I had to really think, right, what am I going to offer? And to begin with it would support existing customers weren't interested. They're not really customers because they're consuming it as a project. So I needed to create a product because we understand we buy products. Initially I just couldn't find the right customers. And so many times I thought about giving up, leaving it behind, my family would've supported me with that as well. And they would've known exactly why even you would've done. And so what I started to do was offer my insights as a community leader, as a maintainer to companies like we've got here. So Casting one of my customers, CSIG one of my customers, Rancher R, DigitalOcean, a lot of the vendors you see here. And I was able to get a significant amount of money by lending my expertise and writing content that gave me enough buffer to give the doctors time to realize that maybe they do need support and go a bit further into production. And over the last 12 months, we've been signing six figure deals with existing users and new users alike in enterprise. >> For support >> For support, for licensing of new features that are close source and for consulting. >> So you have proprietary extensions. Also that are sort of enterprise class. Right and then also the consulting business, the support business which is a proven business model that has worked >> Is a proven business model. What it's not a proven business model is if you work hard enough, you deserve to be rewarded. >> Mmh. >> You have to go with the system. Winter comes after autumn. Summer comes after spring and you, it's no point saying why is it like that? That's the way it is. And if you go with it, you can benefit from it. And that's what the realization I had as much as I didn't want to do it. >> So you know this community, well you know there's other project founders out here thinking about making the leap. If you're giving advice to a project founder and they're thinking about making this leap, you know quitting their job and becoming the next Alex. And I think this is the perception that the misperception out there. >> Yes. >> You're, you're well known. There's a difference between being well known and well compensated. >> Yeah. >> What advice would you give those founders >> To be. >> Before they make the leap to say you know what I'm going to do my project full time. I'm going to lean on the generosity of the community. So there are some generous people in the community. You've done some really interesting things for individual like contributions etc but that's not enough. >> So look, I mean really you have to go back to the MBA mindset. What problem are you trying to solve? Who is your target customer? What do they care about? What do they eat and drink? When do they go to sleep? You really need to know who this is for. And then customize a journey for them so that they can come to you. And you need some way initially of funneling those people in qualifying them because not everybody that comes to a student or somebody doing a PhD is not your customer. >> Right, right. >> You need to understand sales. You need to understand a lot about business but you can work it out on your way. You know, I'm testament to that. And once you have people you then need something to sell them that might meet their needs and be prepared to tell them that what you've got isn't right for them. 'cause sometimes that's the one thing that will build integrity. >> That's very hard for community leaders. It's very hard for community leaders to say, no >> Absolutely so how do you help them over that hump? I think of what you've done. >> So you have to set some boundaries because as an open source developer and maintainer you want to help everybody that's there regardless. And I think for me it was taking some of the open source features that companies used not releasing them anymore in the open source edition, putting them into the paid developing new features based on what feedback we'd had, offering support as well but also understanding what is support. What do you need to offer? You may think you need a one hour SLA for a fix probably turns out that you could sell a three day response time or one day response time. And some people would want that and see value in it. But you're not going to know until you talk to your customers. >> I want to ask you, because this has been a particular interest of mine. It seems like managed services have been kind of the lifeline for pure open source companies. Enabling these companies to maintain their open source roots, but still have a revenue stream of delivering as a service. Is that a business model option you've looked at? >> There's three business models perhaps that are prevalent. One is OpenCore, which is roughly what I'm following. >> Right. >> Then there is SaaS, which is what you understand and then there's support on pure open source. So that's more like what Rancher does. Now if you think of a company like Buoyant that produces Linkerd they do a bit of both. So they don't have any close source pieces yet but they can host it for you or you can host it and they'll support you. And so I think if there's a way that you can put your product into a SaaS that makes it easier for them to run then you know go for it. However, we've OpenFaaS, remember what is the core problem we are solving, portability So why lock into my cloud? >> Take that option off the table, go ahead. >> It's been a long journey and I've been a fan since your start. I've seen the bumps and bruises and the scars get made. If you're open source leader and you're thinking about becoming as famous as Alex, hey you can do that, you can put in all the work become famous but if you want to make a living, solve a problem, understand what people are willing to pay for that problem and go out and sell it. Valuable lessons here on theCUBE. From Valencia, Spain I'm Keith Townsend along with Paul Gillon and you're watching theCUBE the leader in high-tech coverage. (Upbeat music)

>>The cube presents, Coon and cloud native con Europe, 2022. Brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >>Welcome to Valencia Spain and cuon cloud native con 20 Europe, 2022. I'm your host Keith towns alongside a new hope en Rico, senior reti, senior editor. I'm sorry, senior it analyst at <inaudible> Enrique. Welcome to the program. >>Thank you very much. And thank you for having me. It's exciting. >>So thoughts, high level thoughts of CU con first time in person again in couple years? >>Well, this is amazing for several reasons. And one of the reasons is that yeah, I had the chance to meet, uh, with, uh, you know, people like you again. I mean, we, we met several times over the internet over zoom calls. I, I started to eat these zoom codes. <laugh> because they're really impersonal in the end. And like last night we, we are together group of friends, industry folks. It's just amazing. And a part of that, I mean, the event is, uh, is a really cool, it's really cool. There are a lot from people interviews and, you know, real people doing real stuff, not just, uh, you know, again, in personal calls, you don't even know if they're telling the truth, but when you can, you know, look in their eyes, what they're doing, I, I think that's makes a difference. >>So speaking about real people, meeting people for the first time, new jobs, new roles, Greg Moscarella, enterprise container management and general manager at SUSE. Welcome to the show, welcome back clue belong. >>Thank you very much. It's awesome to be here. It's awesome to be back in person. And I completely agree with you. Like there's a certain fidelity to the conversation and a certain, uh, ability to get to know people a lot more. So it's absolutely fantastic to be here. >>So Greg, tell us about your new role and what SUSE has gone on at KU coupon. >>Sure. So I joined SA about three months ago to lead the rancher business unit, right? So our container management pieces and, you know, it's a, it's a fantastic time. Cause if you look at the transition from virtual machines to containers and to moving to microservices, right alongside that transition from on-prem to cloud, like this is a very exciting time to be in this industry. And rancher has been setting the stage. And again, I'm go back to being here. Rancher's all about the community, right? So this is a very open, independent, uh, community driven product and project. And so this, this is kinda like being back to our people, right. And being able to reconnect here. And so, you know, doing it, digital is great, but, but being here is changes the game for us. So we, we feed off that community. We feed off the energy. So, uh, and again, going back to the space and what's happening in it, great time to be in this space. And you guys have seen the transitions you've seen, I mean, we've seen just massive adoption, uh, of containers and Kubernetes overall and ranchers been been right there with some amazing companies doing really interesting things that I'd never thought of before. Uh, so I'm, I'm still learning on this, but, um, but it's been great so far. >>Yeah. And you know, when we talk about strategy about Kubernetes today, we are talking about very broad strategies. I mean, not just the data center or the cloud with, you know, maybe smaller organization adopting Kubernetes in the cloud, but actually large organization thinking guide and more and more the edge. So what's your opinion on this, you know, expansion of Kubernetes towards the edge. >>So I think you're, I think you're exactly right. And that's actually a lot of meetings I've been having here right now is these are some of these interesting use cases. So people who, uh, whether it be, you know, ones that are easy to understand in the telco space, right? Especially the adoption of 5g and you have all these space stations, new towers, and they have not only the core radio functions or network functions that they're trying to do there, but they have other applications that wanna run on that same environment. Uh, I spoke recently with some of our, our good friends at a major automotive manufacturer, doing things in their factories, right. That can't take the latency of being somewhere else. Right. So they have robots on the factory floor, the latency that they would experience if they tried to run things in the cloud meant that robot would've moved 10 centimeters. >>By the time, you know, the signal got back, it may not seem like a lot to you, but if, if, if you're an employee, you know, there, you know, uh, a big 2000 pound robot being 10 centimeters closer to you may not be what you, you really want. Um, there's, there's just a tremendous amount of activity happening out there on the retail side as well. So it's, it's amazing how people are deploying containers in retail outlets. You know, whether it be fast food and predicting, what, what, how many French fries you need to have going at this time of day with this sort of weather. Right. So you can make sure those queues are actually moving through. It's, it's, it's really exciting and interesting to look at all the different applications that are happening. So yes, on the edge for sure, in the public cloud, for sure. In the data center and we're finding is people want a common platform across those as well. Right? So for the management piece too, but also for security and for policies around these things. So, uh, it really is going everywhere. >>So talk to me, how do, how are we managing that as we think about pushing stuff out of the data center, out of the cloud cloud, closer to the edge security and life cycle management becomes like top of mind thought as, as challenges, how is rancher and sushi addressing >>That? Yeah. So I, I think you're, again, spot on. So it's, it starts off with the think of it as simple, but it's, it's not simple. It's the provisioning piece. How do we just get it installed and running right then to what you just asked the management piece of it, everything from your firmware to your operating system, to the, the cluster, uh, the Kubernetes cluster, that's running on that. And then the workloads on top of that. So with rancher, uh, and with the rest of SUSE, we're actually tacking all those parts of the problems from bare metal on up. Uh, and so we have lots of ways for deploying that operating system. We have operating systems that are, uh, optimized for the edge, very secure and ephemeral container images that you can build on top of. And then we have rancher itself, which is not only managing your ES cluster, but can actually start to manage the operating system components, uh, as well as the workload components. >>So all from your single interface, um, we mentioned policy and security. So we, yeah, we'll probably talk about it more, um, uh, in a little bit, but, but new vector, right? So we acquired a company called new vector, just open sourced, uh, that here in January, that ability to run that level of, of security software everywhere again, is really important. Right? So again, whether I'm running it on, whatever my favorite public cloud providers, uh, managed Kubernetes is, or out at the edge, you still have to have security, you know, in there. And, and you want some consistency across that. If you have to have a different platform for each of your environments, that's just upping the complexity and the opportunity for error. So we really like to eliminate that and simplify our operators and developers' lives as much as possible. >>Yeah. From this point of view, are you implying that even you, you are matching, you know, self, uh, let's say managed clusters at the, at the very edge now with, with, you know, added security, because these are the two big problems lately, you know, so having something that is autonomous somehow easier to manage, especially if you are deploying hundreds of these that's micro clusters. And on the other hand, you need to know a policy based security that is strong enough to be sure again, if you have these huge robots moving too close to you, because somebody act the, the, the class that is managing them, that is, could be a huge problem. So are you, you know, approaching this kind of problems? I mean, is it, uh, the technology that you are acquired, you know, ready to, to do this? >>Yeah. I, I mean, it, it really is. I mean, there's still a lot of innovation happening. Don't, don't get me wrong. We're gonna see a lot of, a lot more, not just from, from SA and ranch here, but from the community, right. There's a lot happening there, but we've come a long way and we solved a lot of problems. Uh, if I think about, you know, how do you have this distributed environment? Uh, well, some of it comes down to not just, you know, all the different environments, but it's also the applications, you know, with microservices, you have very dynamic environment now just with your application space as well. So when we think about security, we really have to evolve from a fairly static policy where like, you might even be able to set an IP address and a port and some configuration on that. >>It's like, well, your workload's now dynamically moving. So not only do you have to have that security capability, like the ability to like, look at a process or look at a network connection and stop it, you have to have that, uh, manageability, right? You can't expect an operator or someone to like go in and manually configure a YAML file, right? Because things are changing too fast. It needs to be that combination of convenient, easy to manage with full function and ability to protect your, your, uh, your resources. And I think that's really one of the key things that new vector really brings is because we have so much intelligence about what's going on there. Like the configuration is pretty high level, and then it just runs, right? So it's used to this dynamic environment. It can actually protect your workloads wherever it's going from pod to pod. Uh, and it's that, that combination, again, that manageability with that high functionality, um, that, that is what's making it so popular. And what brings that security to those edge locations or cloud locations or your data center. >>So one of the challenges you're kind of, uh, touching on is this abstraction on, upon abstraction. When I, I ran my data center, I could put, uh, say this IP address, can't talk to this IP address on this port. Then I got next generation firewalls where I could actually do, uh, some analysis. Where are you seeing the ball moving to when it comes to customers, thinking about all these layers of abstraction IP address doesn't mean anything anymore in cloud native it's yes, I need one, but I'm not, I'm not protecting based on IP address. How are customers approaching security from the name space perspective? >>Well, so it's, you're absolutely right. In fact, even when you go to IPV six, like, I don't even recognize IP addresses anymore. <laugh> yeah. >>That doesn't mean anything like, oh, just a bunch of, yeah. Those are numbers, alpha Ric >>And colons. Right. You know, it's like, I don't even know anymore. Right. So, um, yeah, so it's, it comes back to that, moving from a static, you know, it's the pets versus cattle thing. Right? So this static thing that I can sort of know and, and love and touch and kind of protect to this almost living, breathing thing, which is moving all around, it's a swarm of, you know, pods moving all over the place. And so, uh, it, it is, I mean, that's what Kubernetes has done for the workload side of it is like, how do you get away from, from that, that pet to a declarative approach to, you know, identifying your workload and the components of that workload and what it should be doing. And so if we go on the security side some more like, yeah, it's actually not even namespace namespace. >>Isn't good enough if we wanna get, if we wanna get to zero trust, it's like, just cuz you're running in my namespace doesn't mean I trust you. Right. So, and that's one of the really cool things about new vectors because of the, you know, we're looking at protocol level stuff within the network. So it's pod to pod, every single connection we can look at and it's at the protocol layer. So if you say you're on my SQL database and I have a mye request going into it, I can confirm that that's actually a mye protocol being spoken and it's well formed. Right. And I know that this endpoint, you know, which is a, uh, container image or a pod name or some, or a label, even if it's in the same name, space is allowed to talk to and use this protocol to this other pod that's running in my same name space. >>Right. So I can either allow or deny. And if I can, I can look into the content that request and make sure it's well formed. So I'll give you an example is, um, do you guys remember the log four J challenges from not too long ago, right. It was a huge deal. So if I'm doing something that's IP and port based and name space based, so what are my protections? What are my options for something that's got logged four J embedded in like, I either run the risk of it running or I shut it down. Those are my options. Like those neither one of those are very good. So we can do, because again, we're at the protocol layer. It's like, ah, I can identify any log for J protocol. I can look at whether it's well formed, you know, or if it's malicious and it's malicious, I can block it. If it's well formed, I can let it go through. So I can actually look at those, those, um, those vulnerabilities. I don't have to take my service down. I can run and still be protected. And so that, that extra level, that ability to kind of peek into things and also go pod to pod, you know, not just same space level is one of the key differences. So I talk about the evolution or how we're evolving with, um, with the security. Like we've grown a lot, we've got a lot more coming. >>So let's talk about that a lot more coming what's in the pipeline for SUSE. >>Well, probably before I get to that, we just announced new vector five. So maybe I can catch us up on what was released last week. Uh, and then we can talk a little bit about going, going forward. So new vector five, introduce something called um, well, several things, but one of the things I can talk in more detail about is something called zero drift. So I've been talking about the network security, but we also have run time security, right? So any, any container that's running within your environment has processes that are running that container. What we can do is actually comes back to that manageability and configuration. We can look at the root level of trust of any process that's running. And as long as it has an inheritance, we can let that process run without any extra configuration. If it doesn't have a root level of trust, like it didn't spawn from whatever the, a knit, um, function was in that container. We're not gonna let it run. Uh, so the, the configuration that you have to put in there is, is a lot simpler. Um, so that's something that's in, in new vector five, um, the web application firewall. So this layer seven security inspection has gotten a lot more granular now. So it's that pod Topo security, um, both for ingress egress and internal on the cluster. Right. >>So before we get to what's in the pipeline, one question around new vector, how is that consumed and deployed? >>How is new vector consumed, >>Deployed? And yeah, >>Yeah, yeah. So, uh, again with new vector five and, and also rancher 2 65, which just were released, there's actually some nice integration between them. So if I'm a rancher customer and I'm using 2 65, I can actually deploy that new vector with a couple clicks of the button in our, uh, in our marketplace. And we're actually tied into our role-based access control. So an administrator who has that has the rights can just click they're now in a new vector interface and they can start setting those policies and deploying those things out very easily. Of course, if you aren't using, uh, rancher, you're using some other, uh, container management platform, new vector still works. Awesome. You can deploy it there still in a few clicks. Um, you're just gonna get into, you have to log into your new vector, uh, interface and, and use it from there. >>So that's how it's deployed. It's, it's very, it's very simple to use. Um, I think what's actually really exciting about that too, is we've opensourced it? Um, so it's available for anyone to go download and try, and I would encourage people to give it a go. Uh, and I think there's some compelling reasons to do that now. Right? So we have pause security policies, you know, depreciated and going away, um, pretty soon in, in Kubernetes. And so there's a few things you might look at to make sure you're still able to run a secure environment within Kubernetes. So I think it's a great time to look at what's coming next, uh, for your security within your Kubernetes. >>So Paul, we appreciate chief stopping by from ity of Spain, from Spain, I'm Keith Townsend, along with en Rico Sinte. Thank you. And you're watching the, the leader in high tech coverage.

>>Hi, this is Dave Volonte. We're winding down Day two of the Cubes coverage of Vim on 2022. We're here at the area in Las Vegas. Myself and Dave Nicholson had been going for two days. Everybody's excited about the VM on party tonight. It's It's always epic, and, uh, it's a great show in terms of its energy. Danny Allen is here. He's cto of in his back. He gave the keynote this morning. I say, Danny, you know, you look pretty good up there with two hours of sleep. I >>had three. >>Look, don't look that good, but your energy was very high. And I got to tell you the story you told was amazing. It was one of the best keynotes I've ever seen. Even even the technology pieces were outstanding. But you weaving in that story was incredible. I'm hoping that people will go back and and watch it. We probably don't have time to go into it, but wow. Um, can you give us the the one minute version of that >>long story? >>Sure. Yeah. I read a book back in 2013 about a ship that sank off Portsmouth, Maine, and I >>thought, I'm gonna go find that >>ship. And so it's a long, >>complicated process. Five >>years in the making. But we used data, and the data that found the ship was actually from 15 years earlier. >>And in 20 >>18, we found the bow of the ship. We found the stern of the ship, but what we were really trying to answer was torpedoed. Or did the boilers explode? Because >>the navy said the boilers exploded >>and two survivors said, No, it was torpedoed or there was a German U boat there. >>And so >>our goal was fine. The ship find the boiler. >>So in 20 >>19, Sorry, Uh, it was 2018. We found the bow and the stern. And then in 2019, we found both boilers perfectly intact. And in fact, the rear end of that torpedo wasn't much left >>of it, of course, but >>data found that wreck. And so it, um, it exonerated essentially any implication that somebody screwed >>up in >>the boiler system and the survivors or the Children of the survivors obviously appreciated >>that. I'm sure. Yes, Several >>outcomes to it. So the >>chief engineer was one >>of the 13 survivors, >>and he lived with the weight of this for 75 years. 49 sailors dead because of myself. But I had the opportunity of meeting some of the Children of the victims and also attending ceremonies. The families of those victims received purple hearts because they were killed due to enemy action. And then you actually knew how to do this. I wasn't aware you had experience finding Rex. You've >>discovered several of >>them prior to this one. But >>the interesting connection >>the reason why this keynote was so powerful as we're a >>team, it's a data conference. >>You connected that to data because you you went out and bought a How do you say this? Magnanimous magnetometer. Magnetometer, Magnetometer. I don't know what that >>is. And a side >>scan Sonar, Right? I got that right. That was >>easy. But >>then you know what this stuff is. And then you >>built the model >>tensorflow. You took all the data and you found anomalies. And then you went right to that spot. Found the >>wreck with 12 >>£1000 of dynamite, >>which made your heart >>beat. But >>then you found >>the boilers. That's incredible. And >>but the point was, >>this is data >>uh, let's see, >>a lot of years after, >>right? >>Yeah. Two sets of data were used. One was the original set of side scan sonar >>data by the historian >>who discovered there was a U boat in the area that was 15 years old. >>And then we used, of >>course, the wind and weather and wave pattern data that was 75 years old to figure out where the boiler should be because they knew that the ship had continued to float for eight minutes. And so you had to go back and determine the models of where should the boilers >>be if it exploded and the boilers >>dropped out and it floated along >>for eight minutes and then sank? Where was >>that data? >>It was was a scanned was an electronic was a paper. How did you get that data? So the original side scan sonar data was just hard >>drive >>data by the historian. >>I wish I could say he used them to >>back it up. But I don't know that I can say that. But he still had >>the data. 15 years later, the >>weather and >>wind and wave data, That was all public information, and we actually used that extensively. We find other wrecks. A lot of wrecks off Boston Sunken World War Two. So we were We were used to that model of tracking what happened. Wow. So, yes, imagine if that data weren't available >>and it >>probably shouldn't have been right by all rights. So now fast forward to 2022. We've got Let's talk about just a cloud >>data. I think you said a >>couple of 100 >>petabytes in the >>cloud 2019. 500 in, Uh, >>no. Yeah. In >>20 2200 and 42. Petabytes in 20 2500 Petabytes last year. And we've already done the same as 2020. So >>240 petabytes >>in Q one. I expect >>this year to move an exhibit of >>data into the public cloud. >>Okay, so you got all that data. Who knows what's in there, right? And if it's not protected, who's going to know in 50 60 7100 years? Right. So that was your tie in? Yes. To the to the importance of data protection, which was just really, really well done. Congratulations. Honestly, one of the best keynotes I've ever seen keynotes often really boring, But you did a great job again on two hours. Sleep. So much to unpack here. The other thing that really is. I mean, we can talk about the demos. We can talk about the announcements. Um, so? Well, yeah, Let's see. Salesforce. Uh, data protection is now public. I almost spilled the beans yesterday in the cube. Caught myself the version 12. Obviously, you guys gave a great demo showing the island >>cloud with I think it >>was just four minutes. It was super fast. Recovery in four minutes of data loss was so glad you didn't say zero minutes because that would have been a live demos which, Okay, which I appreciate and also think is crazy. So some really cool demos, Um, and some really cool features. So I have so much impact, but the the insights that you can provide through them it's VM one, uh, was actually something that I hadn't heard you talk about extensively in the past. That maybe I just missed it. But I wonder if you could talk about that layer and why it's critical differentiator for Wien. It's >>the hidden gem >>within the Wien portfolio because it knows about absolutely >>everything. >>And what determines the actions >>that we take is the >>context in which >>data is surviving. So in the context of security, which we are showing, we look for CPU utilisation, memory utilisation, data change rate. If you encrypt all of the data in a file server, it's going to blow up overnight. And so we're leveraging heuristics in their reporting. But even more than that, one of the things in Wien one people don't realise we have this concept of the intelligent diagnostics. It's machine learning, which we drive on our end and we push out as packages intervene one. There's up to 200 signatures, but it helps our customers find issues before they become issues. Okay, so I want to get into because I often time times, don't geek out with you. And don't take advantage of your your technical knowledge. And you've you've triggered a couple of things, >>especially when the >>analysts call you said it again today that >>modern >>data protection has meaning to you. We talked a little bit about this yesterday, but back in >>the days of >>virtualisation, you shunned agents >>and took a different >>approach because you were going for what was then >>modern. Then you >>went to bare metal cloud hybrid >>cloud containers. Super Cloud. Using the analyst meeting. You didn't use the table. Come on, say Super Cloud and then we'll talk about the edge. So I would like to know specifically if we can go back to Virtualised >>because I didn't know >>this exactly how you guys >>defined modern >>back then >>and then. Let's take that to modern today. >>So what do you >>do back then? And then we'll get into cloud and sure, So if you go back to and being started, everyone who's using agents, you'd instal something in the operating system. It would take 10% 15% of your CPU because it was collecting all the data and sending it outside of the machine when we went through a virtual environment. If you put an agent inside that machine, what happens is you would have 100 operating systems all on the same >>server, consuming >>resources from that hyper visor. And so he said, there's a better way of capturing the data instead of capturing the data inside the operating system. And by the way, managing thousands of agents is no fun. So What we did is we captured a snapshot of the image at the hyper visor level. And then over time, we just leverage changed block >>tracking from the hyper >>visor to determine what >>had changed. And so that was modern. Because no more >>managing agents >>there was no impact >>on the operating system, >>and it was a far more >>efficient way to store >>data. You leverage CBT through the A P. Is that correct? Yeah. We used the VCR API >>for data protection. >>Okay, so I said this to Michael earlier. Fast forward to today. Your your your data protection competitors aren't as fat, dumb and happy as they used to be, so they can do things in containers, containers. And we talked about that. So now let's talk about Cloud. What's different about cloud data protection? What defines modern data protection? And where are the innovations that you're providing? >>Let me do one step in >>between those because one of the things that happened between hypervisors and Cloud was >>offline. The capture of the data >>to the storage system because >>even better than doing it >>at the hyper visor clusters >>do it on the storage >>array because that can capture the >>data instantly. Right? So as we go to the cloud, we want to do the same thing. Except we don't have access to either the hyper visor or the storage system. But what they do provide is an API. So we can use the API to capture all of the blocks, all of the data, all of the changes on that particular operating system. Now, here's where we've kind of gone full circle on a hyper >>visor. You can use the V >>sphere agent to reach into the operating system to do >>things like application consistency. What we've done modern data protection is create specific cloud agents that say Forget >>about the block changes. Make sure that I have application consistency inside that cloud operating >>system. Even though you don't have access to the hyper visor of the storage, >>you're still getting the >>operating system consistency >>while getting the really >>fast capture of data. So that gets into you talking on stage about how synapse don't equal data protection. I think you just explained it, but explain why, but let me highlight something that VM does that is important. We manage both snapshots and back up because if you can recover from your storage array >>snapshot. That is the best >>possible thing to recover from right, But we don't. So we manage both the snapshots and we converted >>into the VM portable >>data format. And here's where the super cloud comes into play because if I can convert it into the VM portable data format, I can move >>that OS >>anywhere. I can move it from >>physical to virtual to cloud >>to another cloud back to virtual. I can put it back on physical if I want to. It actually abstracts >>the cloud >>layer. There are things >>that we do when we go >>between clouds. Some use bio, >>some use, um, fee. >>But we have the data in backup format, not snapshot format. That's theirs. But we have been in backup format that we can move >>around and abstract >>workloads across. All of the infrastructure in your >>catalogue is control >>of that. Is that Is >>that right? That is about >>that 100%. And you know what's interesting about our catalogue? Dave. The catalogue is inside the backup, and so historically, one of the problems with backup is that you had a separate catalogue and if it ever got corrupted. All of your >>data is meaningless >>because the catalogue is inside >>the backup >>for that unique VM or that unique instance, you can move it anywhere and power it on. That's why people said were >>so reliable. As long >>as you have the backup file, you can delete our >>software. You can >>still get the data back, so I love this fast paced so that >>enables >>what I call Super Cloud we now call Super Cloud >>because now >>take that to the edge. >>If I want to go to the edge, I presume you can extend that. And I also presume the containers play a role there. Yes, so here's what's interesting about the edge to things on the edge. You don't want to have any state if you can help it, >>and so >>containers help with that. You can have stateless environment, some >>persistent data storage, >>but we not only >>provide the portability >>in operating systems. We also do this for containers, >>and that's >>true if you go to the cloud and you're using SE CKs >>with relational >>database service is already >>asked for the persistent data. >>Later, we can pick that up and move it to G K E or move it to open shift >>on premises. And >>so that's why I call this the super cloud. We have all of this data. Actually, I think you termed the term super thank you for I'm looking for confirmation from a technologist that it's technically feasible. It >>is technically feasible, >>and you can do it today and that's a I think it's a winning strategy. Personally, Will there be >>such a thing as edge Native? You know, there's cloud native. Will there be edge native new architectures, new ways of doing things, new workloads use cases? We talk about hardware, new hardware, architectures, arm based stuff that are going to change everything to edge Native Yes and no. There's going to be small tweaks that make it better for the edge. You're gonna see a lot of iron at the edge, obviously for power consumption purposes, and you're also going to see different constructs for networking. We're not going to use the traditional networking, probably a lot more software to find stuff. Same thing on the storage. They're going to try and >>minimise the persistent >>storage to the smallest footprint possible. But ultimately I think we're gonna see containers >>will lead >>the edge. We're seeing this now. We have a I probably can't name them, but we have a large retail organisation that is running containers in every single store with a small, persistent footprint of the point of sale and local data, but that what >>is running the actual >>system is containers, and it's completely ephemeral. So we were >>at Red Hat, I was saying >>earlier last week, and I'd say half 40 50% of the conversation was edge open shift, obviously >>playing a big role there. I >>know doing work with Rancher and Town Zoo. And so there's a lot of options there. >>But obviously, open shift has >>strong momentum in the >>marketplace. >>I've been dominating. You want to chime in? No, I'm just No, >>I yeah, I know. Sometimes >>I'll sit here like a sponge, which isn't my job absorbing stuff. I'm just fascinated by the whole concept of of a >>of a portable format for data that encapsulates virtual machines and or instances that can live in the containerised world. And once you once you create that common denominator, that's really that's >>That's the secret sauce >>for what you're talking about is a super club and what's been fascinating to watch because I've been paying attention since the beginning. You go from simply V. M. F s and here it is. And by the way, the pitch to E. M. C. About buying VM ware. It was all about reducing servers to files that can be stored on storage arrays. All of a sudden, the light bulbs went off. We can store those things, and it just began. It became it became a marriage afterwards. But to watch that progression that you guys have gone from from that fundamental to all of the other areas where now you've created this common denominator layer has has been amazing. So my question is, What's the singer? What doesn't work? Where the holes. You don't want to look at it from a from a glass half empty perspective. What's the next opportunity? We've talked about edge, but what are the things that you need to fill in to make this truly ubiquitous? Well, there's a lot of services out there that we're not protecting. To be fair, right, we do. Microsoft 3 65. We announced sales for us, but there's a dozen other paths services that >>people are moving data >>into. And until >>we had data protection >>for the assassin path services, you know >>you have to figure out how >>to protect them. Now here's the kicker about >>those services. >>Most of them have the >>ability to dump date >>out. The trick is, do they have the A >>P? I is needed to put data >>back into it right, >>which is which is a >>gap. As an industry, we need to address this. I actually think we need a common >>framework for >>how to manage the >>export of data, but also the import of data not at a at a system level, but at an atomic level of the elements within those applications. >>So there are gaps >>there at the industry, but we'll fill them >>if you look on the >>infrastructure side. We've done a lot with containers and kubernetes. I think there's a next wave around server list. There's still servers and these micro services, but we're making things smaller and smaller and smaller, and there's going to be an essential need to protect those services as well. So modern data protection is something that's going to we're gonna need modern data protection five years from now, the modern will just be different. Do you ever see the day, Danny, where governance becomes an >>adjacency opportunity for >>you guys? It's clearly an opportunity even now if you look, we spent a lot of time talking about security and what you find is when organisations go, for example, of ransomware insurance or for compliance, they need to be able to prove that they have certifications or they have security or they have governance. We just saw transatlantic privacy >>packed only >>to be able to prove what type of data they're collecting. Where are they storing it? Where are they allowed to recovered? And yes, those are very much adjacency is for our customers. They're trying to manage that data. >>So given that I mean, >>am I correct that architecturally you are, are you location agnostic? Right. We are a location agnostic, and you can actually tag data to allowable location. So the big trend that I think is happening is going to happen in in this >>this this decade. >>I think we're >>scratching the surface. Is this idea >>that, you know, leave data where it is, >>whether it's an S three >>bucket, it could be in an Oracle >>database. It could be in a snowflake database. It can be a data lake that's, you know, data, >>bricks or whatever, >>and it stays where >>it is. And it's just a note on the on the call of the data >>mesh. Not my term. Jim >>Octagon coined that term. The >>problem with that, and it puts data in the hands of closer to the domain experts. The problem with that >>scenario >>is you need self service infrastructure, which really doesn't exist today anyway. But it's coming, and the big problem is Federated >>computational >>governance. How do I automate that governance so that the people who should have access to that it can have access to that data? That, to me, seems to be an adjacency. It doesn't exist except in >>a proprietary >>platform. Today. There needs to be a horizontal >>layer >>that is more open than anybody >>can use. And I >>would think that's a perfect opportunity for you guys. Just strategically it is. There's no question, and I would argue, Dave, that it's actually >>valuable to take snapshots and to keep the data out at the edge wherever it happens to be collected. But then Federated centrally. It's why I get so excited by an exhibit of data this year going into the cloud, because then you're centralising the aggregation, and that's where you're really going to drive the insights. You're not gonna be writing tensorflow and machine learning and things on premises unless you have a lot of money and a lot of GPS and a lot of capacity. That's the type of thing that is actually better suited for the cloud. And, I would argue, better suited for not your organisation. You're gonna want to delegate that to a third party who has expertise in privacy, data analysis or security forensics or whatever it is that you're trying to do with the data. But you're gonna today when you think about AI. We talked about A. I haven't had a tonne of talk about AI some >>appropriate >>amount. Most of the >>AI today correct me if you think >>this is not true is modelling that's done in the cloud. It's dominant. >>Don't >>you think that's gonna flip when edge >>really starts to take >>off where it's it's more real time >>influencing >>at the edge in new use cases at the edge now how much of that data >>is going to be >>persisted is a >>point of discussion. But what >>are your thoughts on that? I completely agree. So my expectation of the way >>that this will work is that >>the true machine learning will happen in the centralised location, and what it will do is similar to someone will push out to the edge the signatures that drive the inferences. So my example of this is always the Tesla driving down the road. >>There's no way that that >>car should be figuring it sending up to the cloud. Is that a stop sign? Is it not? It can't. It has to be able to figure out what the stop sign is before it gets to it, so we'll do the influencing at the edge. But when it doesn't know what to do with the data, then it should send it to the court to determine, to learn about it and send signatures back out, not just to that edge location, but all the edge locations within the within the ecosystem. So I get what you're saying. They might >>send data back >>when there's an anomaly, >>or I always use the example of a deer running in front of the car. David Floyd gave me that one. That's when I want to. I do want to send the data back to the cloud because Tesla doesn't persist. A tonne of data, I presume, right, right less than 5% of it. You know, I want to. Usually I'm here to dive into the weeds. I want kind of uplevel this >>to sort of the >>larger picture. From an I T perspective. >>There's been a lot of consolidation going on if you divide the >>world into vendors >>and customers. On the customer side, there are only if there's a finite number of seats at the table for truly strategic partners. Those get gobbled up often by hyper >>scale cloud >>providers. The challenge there, and I'm part of a CEO accreditation programme. So this >>is aimed at my students who >>are CEOs and CIOs. The challenge is that a lot of CEOs and CIOs on the customer side don't exhaustively drag out of their vendor partners like a theme everything that Saveem >>can do for >>them. Maybe they're leveraging a point >>solution, >>but I guarantee you they don't all know that you've got cast in in the portfolio. Not every one of them does yet, let alone this idea of a super >>cloud and and and >>how much of a strategic role you can play. So I don't know if it's a blanket admonition to folks out there, but you have got to leverage the people who are building the solutions that are going to help you solve problems in the business. And I guess, as in the form of >>a question, >>uh, do you Do you see that as a challenge? Now those the limited number of seats at >>the Table for >>Strategic Partners >>Challenge and >>Opportunity. If you look at the types of partners that we've partnered with storage partners because they own the storage of the data, at the end of the day, we actually just manage it. We don't actually store it the cloud partners. So I see that as the opportunity and my belief is I thought that the storage doesn't matter, >>but I think the >>organisation that can centralise and manage that data is the one that can rule the world, and so >>clearly I'm a team. I think we can do amazing things, but we do have key >>strategic partners hp >>E Amazon. You heard >>them on stage yesterday. >>18 different >>integrations with AWS. So we have very strategic partners. Azure. I go out there all the time. >>So there >>you don't need to be >>in the room at the table because your partners are >>and they have a relationship with the customer as well. Fair enough. But the key to this it's not just technology. It is these relationships and what is possible between our organisations. So I'm sorry to be >>so dense on this, but when you talk about >>centralising that data you're talking about physically centralising it or can actually live across clouds, >>for instance. But you've got >>visibility and your catalogues >>have visibility on >>all that. Is that what you mean by centralised obliterated? We have understanding of all the places that lives, and we can do things with >>it. We can move it from one >>cloud to another. We can take, you know, everyone talks about data warehouses. >>They're actually pretty expensive. >>You got to take data and stream it into this thing, and there's a massive computing power. On the other hand, we're >>not like that. You've storage on there. We can ephemeral e. Spin up a database when you need it for five minutes and then destroy it. We can spin up an image when you need it and then destroy it. And so on your perspective of locations. So irrespective of >>location, it doesn't >>have to be in a central place, and that's been a challenge. You extract, >>transform and load, >>and moving the data to the central >>location has been a problem. We >>have awareness of >>all the data everywhere, >>and then we can make >>decisions as to what you >>do based >>on where it is and >>what it is. And that's a metadata >>innovation. I guess that >>comes back to the catalogue, >>right? Is that correct? >>You have data >>about the data that informs you as to where it is and how to get to it. And yes, so metadata within the data that allows you to recover it and then data across the federation of all that to determine where it is. And machine intelligence plays a role in all that, not yet not yet in that space. Now. I do think there's opportunity in the future to be able to distribute storage across many different locations and that's a whole conversation in itself. But but our machine learning is more just on helping our customers address the problems in their infrastructures rather than determining right now where that data should be. >>These guys they want me to break, But I'm >>refusing. So your >>Hadoop back >>in their rooms via, um that's >>well, >>that scale. A lot of customers. I talked to Renee Dupuis. Hey, we we got there >>was heavy lift. You >>know, we're looking at new >>ways. New >>approaches, uh, going. And of course, it's all in the cloud >>anyway. But what's >>that look like? That future look like we haven't reached bottle and X ray yet on our on our Hadoop clusters, and we do continuously examine >>them for anomalies that might happen. >>Not saying we won't run into a >>bottle like we always do at some >>point, But we haven't yet >>awesome. We've covered a lot of We've certainly covered extensively the research that you did on cyber >>security and ransomware. Um, you're kind of your vision for modern >>data protection. I think we hit on that pretty well casting, you know, we talked to Michael about that, and then, you know, the future product releases the Salesforce data protection. You guys, I think you're the first there. I think you were threatened at first from Microsoft. 3 65. No, there are other vendors in the in the salesforce space. But what I tell people we weren't the first to do data capture at the hyper >>visor level. There's two other >>vendors I won't tell you they were No one remembers them. Microsoft 3 65. We weren't the first one to for that, but we're now >>the largest. So >>there are other vendors in the salesforce space. But we're looking at We're going to be aggressive. Danielle, Thanks >>so much for coming to Cuba and letting us pick your brain like that Really great job today. And congratulations on >>being back >>in semi normal. Thank you for having me. I love being on all right. And thank you for watching. Keep it right there. More coverage. Day volonte for Dave >>Nicholson, By >>the way, check out silicon angle dot com for all the written coverage. All the news >>The cube dot >>net is where all these videos We'll we'll live. Check out wiki bond dot com I published every week. I think I'm gonna dig into the cybersecurity >>research that you guys did this week. If I can >>get a hands my hands on those charts which Dave Russell promised >>me, we'll be right back >>right after this short break. Mm.

(calm music) >> Hi everybody. We're here at VeeamON 2022. This is day two of the CUBE's continuous coverage. I'm Dave Vellante. My co-host is Dave Nicholson. A ton of energy. The keynotes, day two keynotes are all about products at Veeam. Veeam, the color of green, same color as money. And so, and it flows in this ecosystem. I'll tell you right now, Michael Cade is here. He's the senior technologist for product strategy at Veeam. Michael, fresh off the keynotes. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Welcome. Danny Allen's keynote was fantastic. I mean, that story he told blew me away. I can't wait to have him back. Stay tuned for that one. But we're going to talk about protecting containers, Kasten. You guys got announcements of Kasten by Veeam, you call it K10 version five, I think? >> Yeah. So just rolled into 5.0 release this week. Now, it's a bit different to what we see from a VBR release cycle kind of thing, cause we're constantly working on a two week sprint cycle. So as much as 5.0's been launched and announced, we're going to see that trickling out over the next couple of months until we get round to Cube (indistinct) and we do all of this again, right? >> So let's back up. I first bumped into Kasten, gosh, it was several years ago at VeeamON. Like, wow this is a really interesting company. I had deep conversations with them. They had a sheer, sheer cat grin, like something was going on and okay finally you acquire them, but go back a little bit of history. Like why the need for this? Containers used to be ephemeral. You know, you didn't have to persist them. That changed, but you guys are way ahead of that trend. Talk a little bit more about the history there and then we'll get into current day. >> Yeah, I think the need for stateful workloads within Kubernetes is absolutely grown. I think we just saw 1.24 of Kubernetes get released last week or a couple of weeks ago now. And really the focus there, you can see, at least three of the big ticket items in that release are focused around storage and data. So it just encourages that the community is wanting to put these data services within that. But it's also common, right? It's great to think about a stateless... If you've got stateless application but even a web server's got some state, right? There's always going to be some data associated to an application. And if there isn't then like, great but that doesn't really work- >> You're right. Where'd they click, where'd they go? I mean little things like that, right? >> Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So one of the things that we are seeing from that is like obviously the requirement to back up and put in a lot of data services in there, and taking full like exposure of the Kubernetes ecosystem, HA, and very tiny containers versus these large like virtual machines that we've always had the story at Veeam around the portability and being able to move them left, right, here, there, and everywhere. But from a K10 point of view, the ability to not only protect them, but also move those applications or move that data wherever they need to be. >> Okay. So, and Kubernetes of course has evolved. I mean the early days of Kubernetes, they kept it simple, kind of like Veeam actually. Right? >> Yeah. >> And then, you know, even though Mesosphere and even Docker Swarm, they were trying to do more sophisticated cluster management. Kubernetes has now got projects getting much more complicated. So more complicated workloads mean more data, more critical data means more protection. Okay, so you acquire Kasten, we know that's a small part of your business today but it's going to be growing. We know this cause everybody's developing applications. So what's different about protecting containers? Danny talks about modern data protection. Okay, when I first heard that, I'm like, eh, nice tagline, but then he peel the onion. He explains how in virtualization, you went from agents to backing up of VMware instance, a virtual instance. What's different about containers? What constitutes modern data protection for containers? >> Yeah, so I think the story that Danny tells as well, is so when we had our physical agents and virtualization came along and a lot of... And this is really where Veeam was born, right, we went into the virtualization API, the VMware API, and we started leveraging that to be more storage efficient. The admin overhead around those agents weren't there then, we could just back up using the API. Whereas obviously a lot of our competition would use agents still and put that resource overhead on top of that. So that's where Veeam initially got the kickstart in that world. I think it's very similar to when it comes to Kubernetes because K10 is deployed within the Kubernetes cluster and it leverages the Kubernetes API to pull out that data in a more efficient way. You could use image based backups or traditional NAS based backups to protect some of the data, and backup's kind of the... It's only one of the ticks in the boxes, right? You have to be able to restore and know what that data is. >> But wait, your competitors aren't as fat, dumb and happy today as they were back then, right? So it can't... They use the same APIs and- >> Yeah. >> So what makes you guys different? >> So I think that's testament to the Kubernetes and the community behind that and things like the CSI driver, which enables the storage vendors to take that CSI abstraction layer and then integrate their storage components, their snapshot technologies, and other efficiency models in there, and be able to leverage that as part of a universal data protection API. So really that's one tick in the box and you're absolutely right, there's open source tools that can do exactly what we're doing to a degree on that backup and recovery. Where it gets really interesting is the mobility of data and how we're protecting that. Because as much as stateful workloads are seen within the Kubernetes environments now, they're also seen outside. So things like Amazon RDS, but the front end lives in Kubernetes going to that stateless point. But being able to protect the whole application and being very application aware means that we can capture everything and restore wherever we want that to go as well. Like, so the demo that I just did was actually a Postgres database in AWS, and us being able to clone or migrate that out into an EKS cluster as a staple set. So again, we're not leveraging RDS at that point, but it gives us the freedom of movement of that data. >> Yeah, I want to talk about that, what you actually demoed. One of the interesting things, we were talking earlier, I didn't see any CLI when you were going through the integration of K10 V5 and V12. >> Yeah. >> That was very interesting, but I'm more skeptical of this concept, of the single pane of glass and how useful that is. Who is this integration targeting? Are you targeting the sort of traditional Veeam user who is now adding as a responsibility, the management of protecting these Kubernetes environments? Or are you at the same time targeting the current owners of those environments? Cause I know you talk about shift left and- >> Yeah. >> You know, nobody needs Kubernetes if you only have one container and one thing you're doing. So at some point it's all about automation, it's about blueprints, it's about getting those things in early. So you get up, you talk about this integration, who cares about that kind of integration? >> Yeah, so I think it's a bit of both, right? So we're definitely focused around the DevOps focused engineer. Let's just call it that. And under an umbrella, the cloud engineer that's looking after Kubernetes, from an application delivery perspective. But I think more and more as we get further up the mountain, CIS admin, obviously who we speak to the tech decision makers, the solutions architects systems engineers, they're going to inherit and be that platform operator around the Kubernetes clusters. And they're probably going to land with the requirement around data management as well. So the specific VBR centralized management is very much for the backup admin, the infrastructure admin or the cloud based engineer that's looking after the Kubernetes cluster and the data within that. Still we speak to app developers who are conscious of what their database looks like, because that's an external data service. And the biggest question that we have or the biggest conversation we have with them is that the source code, the GitHub or the source repository, that's fine, that will get your... That'll get some of the way back up and running, but when it comes to a Postgres database or some sort of data service, oh, that's out of the CI/CD pipeline. So it's whether they're interested in that or whether that gets farmed out into another pre-operations, the traditional operations team. >> So I want to unpack your press release a little bit. It's full of all the acronyms, so maybe you can help us- >> Sure. >> Cipher. You got security everywhere enhance platform hardening, including KMS. That's key- >> Yeah, key management service, yeah. >> System, okay. With AWS, KMS and HashiCorp vault. Awesome, love to see HashiCorp company. >> Yeah. >> RBAC objects in UI dashboards, ransomware attacks, AWS S3. So anyway, security everywhere. What do you mean by that? >> So I think traditionally at Veeam, and continue that, right? From a security perspective, if you think about the failure scenario and ransomware's, the hot topic, right, when it comes to security, but we can think about security as, if we think about that as the bang, right, the bang is something bad's happen, fire, flood, blood, type stuff. And we tend to be that right hand side of that, we tend to be the remediation. We're definitely the one, the last line of defense to get stuff back when something really bad happens. And I think what we've done from a K10 point of view, is not only enhance that, so with the likes of being able to... We're not going to reinvent the wheel, let's use the services that HashiCorp have done from a HashiCorp vault point of view and integrate from a key management system. But then also things like S3 or ransomware prevention. So I want to know if something bad's happened and Kasten actually did something more generic from a Veeam ONE perspective, but one of the pieces that we've seen since we've then started to send our backups to an immutable object storage, is let's be more of that left as well and start looking at the preventative tasks that we can help with. Now, we're not going to be a security company, but you heard all the way through Danny's like keynote, and probably when he is been on here, is that it's always, we're always mindful of that security focus. >> On that point, what was being looked for? A spike in CPU utilization that would be associated with encryption? >> Yeah, exactly that. >> Is that what was being looked- >> That could be... Yeah, exactly that. So that could be from a virtual machine point of view but from a K10, and it specifically is that we're going to look at the S3 bucket or the object storage, we're going to see if there's a rate of change that's out of the normal. It's an abnormal rate. And then with that, we can say, okay, that doesn't look right, alert us through observability tools, again, around the cloud native ecosystem, Prometheus Grafana. And then we're going to get insight into that before the bang happens, hopefully before the bang. >> So that's an interesting when we talk about adjacencies and moving into this area of security- >> We're talking to Zeus about that too. >> Exactly. That's that sort of creep where you can actually add value. It's interesting. >> So, okay. So we talked about shift left, get that, and then expanded ecosystem, industry leading technologies. By the way, one of them is the Red Hat Marketplace. And I think, I heard Anton's... Anton was amazing. He is the head of product management at Veeam. Is been to every VeeamON. He's got family in Ukraine. He's based in Switzerland. >> Yeah. >> But he chose not to come here because he's obviously supporting, you know, the carnage that's going on in Ukraine. But anyway, I think he said the Red Hat team is actually in Ukraine developing, you know, while the bombs are dropping. That's amazing. But anyway, back to our interview here, expanded ecosystem, Red Hat, SUSE with Rancher, they've got some momentum. vSphere with Tanzu, they're in the game. Talk about that ecosystem and its importance. >> Yeah, and I think, and it goes back to your point around the CLI, right? Is that it feels like the next stage of Kubernetes is going to be very much focused towards the operator or the operations team. The CIS admin of today is going to have to look after that. And at the moment it's all very command line, it's all CLI driven. And I think the marketplace is OpenShift, being our biggest foothold around our customer base, is definitely around OpenShift. But things like, obviously we are a longstanding alliance partner with VMware as well. So their Tanzu operations actually there's support for TKGS, so vSphere Tanzu grid services is another part of the big release of 5.0. But all three of those and the common marketplace gives us a UI, gives us a way of being able to see and visualize that rather than having to go and hunt down the commands and get our information through some- >> Oh, some people are going to be unhappy about that. >> Yeah. >> But I contend the human eye has evolved to see in color for a very good reason. So I want to see things in red, yellow, and green at times. >> There you go, yeah. >> So when we hear a company like Veeam talk about, look we have no platform agenda, we don't care which cloud it's in. We don't care if it's on-prem or Google Azure, AWS. We had Wasabi on, we have... Great, they got an S3 compatible, you know, target, and others as well. When we hear them, companies like you, talk about that consistent experience, single pane of glass that you're skeptical of, maybe cause it's technically challenging, one of the things, we call it super cloud, right, that's come up. Danny and I were riffing on that the other day and we'll do that more this afternoon. But it brings up something that we were talking about with Zeus, Dave, which is the edge, right? And it seems like Kubernetes, and we think about OpenShift. >> Yeah. >> We were there last week at Red Hat Summit. It's like 50% of the conversation, if not more, was the edge. Right, and really true edge, worst cases, use cases. Two weeks ago we were at Dell Tech, there was a lot of edge talk, but it was retail stores, like Lowe's. Okay, that's kind of near edge, but the far edge, we're talking space, right? So seems like Kubernetes fits there and OpenShift, you know, particularly, as well as some of the others that we mentioned. What about edge? How much of what you're doing with container data protection do you see as informing you about the edge opportunity? Are you seeing any patterns there? Nobody's really talking about it in data protection yet. >> So yeah, large scale numbers of these very small clusters that are out there on farms or in wind turbines, and that is definitely something that is being spoken about. There's not much mention actually in this 5.0 release because we actually support things like K3s,(indistinct), that all came in 4.5, but I think, to your first point as well, David, is that, look, we don't really care what that Kubernetes distribution is. So you've got K3s lightweight Kubernetes distribution, we support it, because it uses the same native Kubernetes APIs, and we get deployed inside of that. I think where we've got these large scale and large numbers of edge deployments of Kubernetes and that you require potentially some data management down there, and they might want to send everything into a centralized location or a more centralized location than a farm shed out in the country. I think we're going to see a big number of that. But then we also have our multi cluster dashboard that gives us the ability to centralize all of the control plane. So we don't have to go into each individual K10 deployment to manage those policies. We can have one big centralized management multi cluster dashboard, and we can set global policies there. So if you're running a database and maybe it's the same one across all of your different edge locations, where you could just set one policy to say I want to protect that data on an hourly basis, a daily basis, whatever that needs to be, rather than having to go into each individual one. >> And then send it back to that central repository. So that's the model that you see, you don't see the opportunity, at least at this point in time, of actually persisting it at the edge? >> So I think it depends. I think we see both, but again, that's the footprint. And maybe like you mentioned about up in space having a Kubernetes cluster up there. You don't really want to be sending up a NAS device or a storage device, right, to have to sit alongside it. So it's probably, but then equally, what's the art of the possible to get that back down to our planet, like as part of a consistent copy of data? >> Or even a farm or other remote locations. The question is, I mean, EVs, you know, we believe there's going to be tons of data, we just don't.. You think about Tesla as a use case, they don't persist a ton of their data. Maybe if a deer runs across, you know, the front of the car, oh, persist that, send that back to the cloud. >> I don't want anyone knowing my Tesla data. I'll tell you that right now. (all laughing) >> Well, there you go, that one too. All right, well, that's future discussion, we're still trying to squint through those patterns. I got so many questions for you, Michael, but we got to go. Thanks so much for coming to theCUBE. >> Always. >> Great job on the keynote today and good luck. >> Thank you. Thanks for having me. >> All right, keep it right there. We got a ton of product talk today. As I said, Danny Allan's coming back, we got the ecosystem coming, a bunch of the cloud providers. We have, well, iland was up on stage. They were just recently acquired by 11:11 Systems. They were an example today of a cloud service provider. We're going to unpack it all here on theCUBE at VeeamON 2022 from Las Vegas at the Aria. Keep it right there. (calm music)

>>The cube presents, Coon and cloud native con Europe 22, brought to you by the cloud native computing foundation. >>Welcome to Valencia Spain and con cloud native con 20 Europe, 2022. I'm your host, Keith Townson alongside a new host en Rico senior reti, senior editor. I'm sorry, senior it analyst at giong Enrique. Welcome to the program. >>Thank you very much. And thank you for having me. It's exciting. >>So thoughts, high level thoughts of CU con first time in person again in couple years? >>Well, this is amazing for several reasons. And one of the reasons is that yeah, I had the chance to meet, uh, with, uh, you know, people like you again. I mean, we, we met several times over the internet, over zoom codes. I, I started to eat these zoom codes. <laugh> because they're very impersonal in the end. And like last night we, we are together group of friends, industry folks. It's just amazing. And a part of that, I mean, the event is, uh, is a really cool, it's really cool. There are a lot from people interviews and, you know, real people doing real stuff, not just, uh, you know, again, in personal calls, you don't even know if they're telling the truth, but when you can, you know, look in their eyes, what they're doing, I, I think that's makes a difference. >>So speaking about real people, meeting people for the first time, new jobs, new roles, Greg Moscarella enterprise container management in general manager at SUSE, welcome to the show, welcome back clue belong. >>Thank you very much. It's awesome to be here. It's awesome to be back in person. And I completely agree with you. Like there's a certain fidelity to the conversation and a certain, uh, ability to get to know people a lot more. So it's absolutely fantastic to be here. >>So Greg, tell us about your new role and what SUSE has gone on at KU con. >>Sure. So I joined SA about three months ago to lead the rancher business unit, right? So our container management pieces and, you know, it's a, it's a fantastic time. Cause if you look at the transition from virtual machines to containers and to moving to micro services, right alongside that transition from on-prem to cloud, like this is a very exciting time to be in this industry and rancher's been setting the stage. And again, I'm go back to being here. Rancher's all about the community, right? So this is a very open, independent, uh, community driven product and project. And so this, this is kinda like being back to our people, right. And being able to reconnect here. And so, you know, doing it, digital is great, but, but being here is changes the game for us. So we, we feed off that community. We feed off the energy. So, uh, and again, going back to the space and what's happening in it, great time to be in this space. And you guys have seen the transitions you've seen, I mean, we've seen just massive adoption, uh, of containers and Kubernetes overall, and rancher has been been right there with some amazing companies doing really interesting things that I'd never thought of before. Uh, so I'm, I'm still learning on this, but, um, but it's been great so far. >>Yeah. And you know, when we talk about strategy about Kubernetes today, we are talking about very broad strategies. I mean, not just the data center or the cloud with, you know, maybe smaller organization adopting Kubernetes in the cloud, but actually large organization thinking guide and more and more the edge. So what's your opinion on this, you know, expansion of Kubernetes towards the edge. >>So I think you're, I think you're exactly right. And that's actually a lot of meetings I've been having here right now is these are some of these interesting use cases. So people who, uh, whether it be, you know, ones that are easy to understand in the telco space, right? Especially the adoption of 5g and you have all these base stations, new towers, and they have not only the core radio functions or network functions that they're trying to do there, but they have other applications that wanna run on that same environment, uh, spoke recently with some of our, our good friends at a major automotive manufacturer, doing things in their factories, right. That can't take the latency of being somewhere else. Right? So they have robots on the factory floor, the latency that they would experience if they tried to run things in the cloud meant that robot would've moved 10 centimeters. >>By the time, you know, the signal got back, it may not seem like a lot to you, but if, if, if you're an employee, you know, there, you know, uh, a big 2000 pound robot being 10 centimeters closer to you may not be what you, you really want. Um, there's, there's just a tremendous amount of activity happening out there on the retail side as well. So it's, it's amazing how people are deploying containers in retail outlets. You know, whether it be fast food and predicting, what, what, how many French fries you need to have going at this time of day with this sort of weather. Right. So you can make sure those queues are actually moving through. It's, it's, it's really exciting and interesting to look at all the different applications that are happening. So yes, on the edge for sure, in the public cloud, for sure. In the data center and we're finding is people want to common platform across those as well. Right? So for the management piece too, but also for security and for policies around these things. So, uh, it really is going everywhere. >>So talk to me, how do, how are we managing that as we think about pushing stuff out of the data center, out of the cloud cloud, closer to the edge security and life cycle management becomes like top of mind thought as, as challenges, how is rancher and sushi addressing >>That? Yeah. So I, I think you're, again, spot on. So it's, it starts off with the think of it as simple, but it's, it's not simple. It's the provisioning piece. How do we just get it installed and running right then to what you just asked the management piece of it, everything from your firmware to your operating system, to the, the cluster, uh, the Kubernetes cluster, that's running on that. And then the workloads on top of that. So with rancher, uh, and with the rest of SUSE, we're actually tacking all those parts of the problems from bare metal on up. Uh, and so we have lots of ways for deploying that operating system. We have operating systems that are, uh, optimized for the edge, very secure and ephemeral container images that you can build on top of. And then we have rancher itself, which is not only managing your Kubernetes cluster, but can actually start to manage the operating system components, uh, as well as the workload components. >>So all from your single interface, um, we mentioned policy and security. So we, yeah, we'll probably talk about it more, um, uh, in a little bit, but, but new vector, right? So we acquired a company called new vector, just open sourced, uh, that here in January, that ability to run that level of, of security software everywhere again, is really important. Right? So again, whether I'm running it on, whatever my favorite public cloud providers, uh, managed Kubernetes is, or out at the edge, you still have to have security, you know, in there. And, and you want some consistency across that. If you have to have a different platform for each of your environments, that's just upping the complexity and the opportunity for error. So we really like to eliminate that and simplify our operators and developers lives as much as possible. >>Yeah. From this point of view, are you implying that even you, you are matching, you know, self, uh, let's say managed clusters at the, at the very edge now with, with, you know, added security, because these are the two big problems lately, you know, so having something that is autonomous somehow easier to manage, especially if you are deploying hundreds of these that's micro clusters. And on the other hand, you need to know a policy based security that is strong enough to be sure again, if you have these huge robots moving too close to you, because somebody act the class that is managing them, that could be a huge problem. So are you, you know, approaching this kind of problems? I mean, is it, uh, the technology that you are acquired, you know, ready to, to do this? >>Yeah. I, I mean, it, it really is. I mean, there's still a lot of innovation happening. Don't, don't get me wrong. We're gonna see a lot of, a lot more, not just from, from SA and rancher, but from the community, right. There's a lot happening there, but we've come a long way and we've solved a lot of problems. Uh, if I think about, you know, how do you have this distributed environment? Uh, well, some of it comes down to not just, you know, all the different environments, but it's also the applications, you know, with microservices, you have very dynamic environment now just with your application space as well. So when we think about security, we really have to evolve from a fairly static policy where like, you might even be able to set an IP address in a port and some configuration on that. It's like, well, your workload's now dynamically moving. >>So not only do you have to have that security capability, like the ability to like, look at a process or look at a network connection and stop it, you have to have that, uh, manageability, right? You can't expect an operator or someone to like go in and manually configure a YAML file, right? Because things are changing too fast. It needs to be that combination of convenient, easy to manage with full function and ability to protect your, your, uh, your resources. And I think that's really one of the key things that new vector really brings is because we have so much intelligence about what's going on there. Like the configuration is pretty high level, and then it just runs, right? So it's used to this dynamic environment. It can actually protect your workloads wherever it's going from pod to pod. Uh, and it's that, that combination, again, that manageability with that high functionality, um, that, that is what's making it so popular. And what brings that security to those edge locations or cloud locations or your data center >>Mm-hmm <affirmative> so one of the challenges you're kind of, uh, touching on is this abstraction on upon abstraction. When I, I ran my data center, I could put, uh, say this IP address, can't talk to this IP address on this port. Then I got next generation firewalls where I could actually do, uh, some analysis. Where are you seeing the ball moving to when it comes to customers, thinking about all these layers of abstraction I IP address doesn't mean anything anymore in cloud native it's yes, I need one, but I'm not, I'm not protecting based on IP address. How are customers approaching security from the name space perspective? >>Well, so it's, you're absolutely right. In fact, even when you go to I P six, like, I don't even recognize IP addresses anymore. <laugh> >>Yeah. Doesn't mean anything like, oh, just a bunch of, yes, those are numbers, ER, >>And colons. Right. You know, it's like, I don't even know anymore. Right. So, um, yeah, so it's, it comes back to that, moving from a static, you know, it's the pets versus cattle thing. Right? So this static thing that I can sort of know and, and love and touch and kind of protect to this almost living, breathing thing, which is moving all around, it's a swarm of, you know, pods moving all over the place. And so, uh, it, it is, I mean, that's what Kubernetes has done for the workload side of it is like, how do you get away from, from that, that pet to a declarative approach to, you know, identifying your workload and the components of that workload and what it should be doing. And so if we go on the security side some more like, yeah, it's actually not even namespace namespace. >>Isn't good enough. We wanna get, if we wanna get to zero trust, it's like, just cuz you're running in my namespace doesn't mean I trust you. Right. So, and that's one of the really cool things about new vectors because of the, you know, we're looking at protocol level stuff within the network. So it's pod to pod, every single connection we can look at and it's at the protocol layer. So if you say you're on my database and I have a mye request going into it, I can confirm that that's actually a mye protocol being spoken and it's well formed. Right. And I know that this endpoint, you know, which is a, uh, container image or a pod name or some, or a label, even if it's in the same name, space is allowed to talk to and use this protocol to this other pod that's running in my same name space. >>Right. So I can either allow or deny. And if I can, I can look into the content that request and make sure it's well formed. So I'll give you an example is, um, do you guys remember the log four J challenges from not too long ago, right. Was, was a huge deal. So if I'm doing something that's IP and port based and name space based, so what are my protections? What are my options for something that's got log four J embedded in like I either run the risk of it running or I shut it down. Those are my options. Like those neither one of those are very good. So we can do, because again, we're at the protocol layers like, ah, I can identify any log for J protocol. I can look at whether it's well formed, you know, or if it's malicious, if it's malicious, I can block it. If it's well formed, I can let it go through. So I can actually look at those, those, um, those vulnerabilities. I don't have to take my service down. I can run and still be protected. And so that, that extra level, that ability to kind of peek into things and also go pod to pod, you know, not just name space level is one of the key differences. So I talk about the evolution or how we're evolving with, um, with the security. Like we've grown a lot, we've got a lot more coming. >>So let's talk about that a lot more coming what's in the pipeline for SUSE. >>Well, how, before I get to that, we just announced new vector five. So maybe I can catch us up on what was released last week. Uh, and then we can talk a little bit about going, going forward. So new vector five, introduce something called um, well, several things, but one of the things I can talk in more detail about is something called zero drift. So I've been talking about the network security, but we also have run time security, right? So any, any container that's running within your environment has processes that are running that container. What we can do is actually comes back to that manageability and configuration. We can look at the root level of trust of any process that's running. And as long as it has an inheritance, we can let that process run without any extra configuration. If it doesn't have a root level of trust, like it didn't spawn from whatever the, a knit, um, function was and that container we're not gonna let it run. Uh, so the, the configuration that you have to put in there is, is a lot simpler. Um, so that's something that's in, in new vector five, um, the web application firewall. So this layer seven security inspection has gotten a lot more granular now. So it's that pod Topo security, um, both for ingress egress and internal on the cluster. Right. >>So before we get to what's in the pipeline, one question around new vector, how is that consumed and deployed? >>How is new vector consumed, >>Deployed? And yeah, >>Yeah, yeah. So, uh, again with new vector five and, and also rancher 2 65, which just were released, there's actually some nice integration between them. So if I'm a rancher customer and I'm using 2 65, I can actually just deploy that new vector with a couple clicks of the button in our, uh, in our marketplace. And we're actually tied into our role-based access control. So an administrator who has that has the rights can just click they're now in a new vector interface and they can start setting those policies and deploying those things out very easily. Of course, if you aren't using, uh, rancher, you're using some other, uh, container management platform, new vector still works. Awesome. You can deploy it there still in a few clicks. Um, you're just gonna get into, you have to log into your new vector, uh, interface and, and use it from there. >>So that's how it's deployed. It's, it's very, it's very simple to use. Um, I think what's actually really exciting about that too, is we've opensourced it? Um, so it's available for anyone to go download and try, and I would encourage people to give it a go. Uh, and I think there's some compelling reasons to do that now. Right? So we have pause security policies, you know, depreciated and going away, um, pretty soon in, in Kubernetes. And so there's a few things you might look at to make sure you're still able to run a secure environment within Kubernetes. So I think it's a great time to look at what's coming next, uh, for your security within your Kubernetes. >>So, Paul, we appreciate you stopping by from ity of Spain. I'm Keith Townsend, along with en Rico Sinte. Thank you. And you're watching the, the leader in high tech coverage.

>> The Cube presents Dell Technologies World brought to you by Dell. >> Good evening, welcome back to the Cube's coverage of Dell Technologies World, live from the show floor in Las Vegas. Lisa Martin, Dave Vellante. We've been here two and a half days. We've unpacked a lot of announcements in the last couple days, and we're going to be doing a little bit more of that for our final segment. We've got a couple of guests joining us. Itzik Reich, the VP of the Technologist ISG at Dell and Magi Kapoor Director of Storage Product Management at Dell. Guys, welcome. >> Thank you for having us. >> So great to be back in person. I'm sure great for all of you to see customers and partners and your team that you probably haven't seen in quite a while. But Itzik we want to, we want to start with you VP of the Technologists. That sounds like a, like you need to wear a cape or something. >> Right? Yeah. I wish I do sometimes >> Talk about that role and what you do. >> Right, so our role, we have an outbound part and an inbound part. From an outbound perspective, our role is to ensure that our customers are knowing where we going from a technology perspective. And we do it via conferences or customer calls or via blogs, and think of that nature. But as important, we also have an inbound role to ensure that our employees are knowing where we're going. You can imagine they're a very large company. Not every engineer or any other role knows exactly what we are doing in that space, especially around innovation. So we also ensure that they understand it internally about where we going into that nature. And as a side role, I also have a side job which is to be responsible for our container strategy which has started couple of years ago which I'm sure we're going to talk about today. >> Yeah, that's-- >> Got a side gig. My goodness. >> That's right. >> Maggie, lots of announcements in the last couple of days. Great attendance here. Seven to 8,000 people. Dell's coming off its best year ever, north of 100 billion in revenue and FY 22, 17% year on year growth. What are some of the things that excite you about the strategic direction that Dell is going in with its partners, with the hyperscalers storage bringing it to the hyperscalers? >> Yeah. No lots of great announcements. It's been an exciting week. Like you said, it's been great to be back in person, have these face to face meetings and, you know, see the customers, have presentations in person. Like I feel like we haven't done that in forever. So it's felt really, really great. And announcements, it's been incredible. Like the two keynotes that we had on Monday and Tuesday were both incredible. And so I'd like to talk about a couple of key ones, you know, so just to let you know, I'm a director of product management and I'm responsible for a bunch of pan-ISG initiatives, DevOps and our container strategy being one of those items. And so, you know, we're at this cusp where there are, you know, customers that are on this journey of, you know, developers coming up to speed with multicloud being one of the key areas. We've heard that a lot this week, right? And what I loved about Chuck's keynote when he talked about, you know, a multicloud by default and how we're working to change that to be multicloud for design by design, right? And so what we mean by that is, and DevOps plays a very key role there, right? In the last few years developers have had this opportunity to pick different multi from different multi clouds, right? And develop the applications wherever they find the right tool sets. But that's creating havoc with IT operations because IT has worked in it in different ways, right? So what we're trying to do with DevOps is really bridge the gap between the developers and the IT ops and make it more frictionless. And project Alpine is one of the key ones to make that, you know, to bring that bridge together. Really bring that operational consistency across on-prem and the public clouds and colo facilities and Edge and everything that we've talked about. So project Alpine is really key to the success of DevOps that we're driving across. And then the other thing that I would like to call out in terms of announce and Chuck brought that up on Monday was our focus on developers. And we have a portal called developer.dell.com which we announced and launched in January of this year. Right? It's think of that as our one stop shop for all of our APIs. You heard from Caitlin, you heard from a lot of our leaders that we have been on this journey of having a API first approach to everything we're doing be it products, be it features, functionality. And so the developer portal is the place where we're putting all of our ISG APIs and not just having a one stop shop but standardizing on APIs, which is really key. >> We just spoke to Shannon Champion and Gemma from Salesforce. And we talked about how we entered last decade for visioning lungs. And now we're programming infrastructure. So really interested in your container strategy, your DevOps strategy. How did it start? How was it evolving? Where are you in the spectrum? You know, where are customers in that maturity? Let's dig in >> 2015, I believe was the year when DockerCon their CTO went on stage and they explained their customer that they shouldn't care about storage. They should design their applications running in containers in the 12 factor way, designed to fail, storage doesn't matter. And I remember scratching my head because I was hearing this one before. If there's one thing that I've learned both as a customer and later on as an employee of a storage company at the time, is that customers care about data and they care a lot about their data. Especially if it's not available. It's a bad day for the customer and possibly a very bad day for me as well. And so we actually, at the time, work with a startup called Cluster HQ to offer persistent volumes for Kubernetes. That startup eventually went down of business. But Google took over the some part of the intellectual property and came with an API called CSI. Which does not stand for your famous TV show. It's actually an acronym for container storage interface. And the CSI role in life is to be able to provide persistent volume from a storage array to Kubernetes. So we start working with Google, just like many other vendors in order to ensure that our stands outs are part of the CSI stand out. And we start to providing CSI interfaces for our storage arrays. And that's how all of these things started. We started to get more and more customers telling us I'm going all in with Kubernetes and I need you to support me in that journey. But what we've also learned is that Kubernetes similarly in a way to the open stock days is very fragmented. There are many distributions that are running on the top of Kubernetes. So seed side itself is not just the end of it. Many customer wants day to be working with VMware (indistinct) with zoo or with red OpenShift or with Rancher. So we need to do different adjustments for each one of these distributions in order to ensure that we are meeting the customer where they are today but also in the future as well. >> Yeah, and Kubernetes back in 2015 was, you know, pretty immature. We were focused on simplicity. You had Mesos doing, you know, more sophisticated things, you know, cluster HQ, obvious. And now you see Kubernetes moving into that realm tackling all those, a lot of those problems. So where does storage fit into that resilient resiliency equation? >> Yeah, so, you know, I think storages are key. What we're hearing a lot from customers is they have infrastructure in place already and they want to take advantage of cloud native and modernizing their applications whether they're the legacy applications or as they're building new applications. So how do really take advantage of the infrastructure that they have invested in? And they love, and they need. I mean, the reason why our customers love our products is because of the enterprise and the data management capabilities that we provide, right? Be it PowerMax for our gold standards on SRDF replication, for instance, they want to make sure that they leverage all of that as they are containerizing their applications. So the piece that Itzik talked about with the CSI plugins, that gives customers the opportunity to take advantage of the infrastructure that's already in place, take advantage of all the enterprise capabilities that it provides but yet take advantage of cloudifying, if I can say, the applications that they're doing, right? And then on top of that we also have what we call our CSM modules which is the container storage modules which is so, you know, going back again, we, CSI industry stack spec standards, you know, customers started to use it. And what we heard from our customers was, this is great but it has very minimum capabilities, right? Very basic ones. And we love your enterprise products. We want enterprise capabilities with it. So we've been working with CNCF very closely on, you know, working on contributions. But what we have realized is that they're, the community is still far from delivering some of these enterprise capabilities. So we came up with container storage modules which is an extension of CSI modules but to add those enterprise capabilities, you know, be it observability, be it replication, authorization, resiliency. These are the things that customers wanted to use enterprise storage when it comes to containers. And that's what we've been delivering on with our container storage modules. I do want to call out that all of our CSM modules just like CSI are all open source. That's what developers want. They don't want it closed source. And so we're listening to them and we're creating all of this in open source waiting, you know, and wanting them to contribute to the court. So it's not just us doing, you know and writing what we want but we also want the community to contribute. >> You're committing resources there, publishing them, it's all open source? >> Exactly. >> That's the contribution. >> And working with CNCF to see if they can be standardized across the board not just for Dell customers. >> Is that a project going, is that your ideal? It that becomes a project within CNCF or is it? >> That's our goal. Yes. We're definitely working and influencing. We'll see how it goes. >> More committers. Just keep throwing committers at it. >> Support these day is done via slack channel. So if we're changing the way that we run interacting with our customers that are now the developers themselves via slack channel. You don't need to call 100, 800 Dell to get a support case. >> So I'm interested in, you mentioned project Alpine, and it was very interesting to me to see that. You know, you guys talk about multicloud. I try to take it to another level. I call it super cloud and that's this abstraction layer. You know, some people laugh at that, but it has meaning. Multi-cloud is going to multivendor by default. And my premise is data ultimately is going to stay where it belongs in place. And then this mesh evolves, not my word, Jamoc Degani kind of invented. And there needs to be standards to be able to share data and govern that data. And it's wide open now. There are no standards there. And I think open sources has an opportunity as opposed to a defacto standard that would emerge. It seems to be real white space there. I think a company like Dell could provide that self-service infrastructure to those data points on the mesh and standards or software that governs that in a computational way. Is that something that's, you know, that super cloud idea is a reality from a technologist perspective? >> I think it is. So for example, Katie Gordon, which I believe you interviewed earlier this week, was demonstrating the Kubernetes data mobility aspect, which is another project. That's exactly power part of the its rational, the rationale of customers being able to move some of their Kubernetes workloads to the cloud and back and between different clouds. Why we doing it? Because customers wants to have the ability to move between different cloud providers using a common API that will be able to orchestrate all of those things with a self-service that may be offered via the apex console itself. So it's all around enabling developers and meeting them where they are today and also meeting them in tomorrow's world where they actually may have changed their mind to do those things. So, yes, we are working on all of those different aspects. >> Dell meeting the developers where they are. Guys thank you so much for joining David and me and unpacking that. We appreciate your insights and your time. >> Thank you so much for having us. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Speaking of unpacking, Lisa. We're unpacking Dell tech world. >> They're packing up around us. Exactly. We better go. We want to thank you for watching The Cube's two and a half days of live coverage of Dell Technologies world. Dave it's been great to co-host with you, be back in person. >> Thank you Lisa. It was really a pleasure. >> Of course. My pleasure too. >> Let's do more of this. >> Let's do it! >> All right. >> We want to thank you again for watching. You can catch all of this on replay on thecube.net. We look forward to seeing you next time. (soft music)

(digital music) >> Welcome to this CUBE Conversation. I'm Lisa Martin. Bren Briggs, joins me next, the Director of DevOps and Cybersecurity at Hypergiant. Bren, welcome to theCUBE. >> Hey there, I'm glad to be here. >> You have a very cool background, which I wish we had time to get into your mandolin playing, but we don't. Tell me a little bit about Hypergiant this is a company that's new to me? >> So we are an AI and Machine Learning Company, and we had the slogan we talked about a lot, it's almost tongue in cheek, "Tomorrowing Today" where we want to build and focus on technology that advances the state-of-the-art and we want to, where this deep history and background in services, where we build custom solutions for companies that have data problems and that have AI and machine learning problems. And they come to us and we help them make sense of their data and we build a custom software solution from top to bottom. And we help them with their data problems and their really difficult problems that they have there in a very specialized way. And yeah, that's what we do. It's really fun. >> "Tomorrowing Today", I like that build T-shirts with that on that. (Bren chuckles) So talk to me about the work that you guys are doing with SUSE Rancher Government Labs. You're doing some very cool work with the air force, help me understand that. >> Sure, so about a year and some change ago, we had a government contract, an air force contract, to develop some new or just to basically write an experiment with some new sensing technology onboard a satellite. So we built this satellite, we were talking about how we're going to employ DevOps' best practices on the satellite and if that's even a thing that can be done. How we get these rights of space and really thinking through the entire process. And as we did this, we were getting more and more deeply involved with a very very new group. Actually, we kind of started at the same time. A new group within the air force called, Platform One. Platform One's mission is to bring DevSecOps to the DoD Enterprise. And so as we're kind of starting off together and getting to know each other, Rob Slaughter who started and ran Platform One for the first bit of his existence, he said, "hey, we're going to incorporate some Platform One stuff into this. Let's talk about just building an actual Platform One satellite and see what that looks like." And so that was kind of the start of this whole idea was what do we do and how do we do DevSecOps in low Earth orbit? Can we put Kubernetes on satellite and will it work? >> And tell me some of the results? So, I used to work for NASA, so I would geek out on anything that has to do with the space program. But talk to me about some of the things that you uncovered bringing Kubernetes, AI, machine learning to this, outer Edge of Earth? >> I think the first thing that we learned that I think, it's an understatement to say that space is hard. (Both laughing) But it really is. And that was the part that we learned about was it was hard in all of the ways that we did not expect. And a lot of it had to do with just government and logistics. We learned that it is difficult a lot of times to just to find a way to get into space and then once you're there, how you operate in the conditions that you're in and how you could even communicate with your satellite is it's just a logistical adventure on top of all of the other engineering problems that you have while you're on low Earth orbit? The other thing that we figured out was awkward things are difficult. While you're on orbit, they can be slow or fragmented and so it pays to get it right the first time but that's not the nature of modern software development is you'd never get it right and you're continually updating. So that was a problem that really nagged us for awhile was after we did the wider experiment, like how would we continuously update this and what would we do? And those ideas and questions fed into the experiment that became Sat One and then the follow one much bigger experiment that became the Edge One and Edge working group. >> Tell me a little bit about the wider experiment, give me some context of how that relates to Platform One, Sat One? >> I can't (laughing) I can't really go into details about what wider did or anything like that. It was not a classified mission, it's just not something that I can disclose. >> Okay, got it. >> Sorry. >> So talk to me about some of the work that you guys are doing together Hypergiant with SUSE in terms of pushing forward the next generation of Kubernetes to low Earth orbit and beyond. >> Sure, so SUSE RGS, specifically, Chris Nuber, like, one of the things that I have to do is I have to be a cheerleader for all of the amazing people that were on this project. And two people in particular, Chris Tacke and Chris Nuber, were instrumental in making this work. I was like almost tangentially involved where I was doing some input and architecture and helping debug but it was really Chris Tacke and Chris Nuber that made this thing, that built this thing and made it work. And Chris Nuber, was our assigned resource from SUSE RGS. And he said, "Obviously SUSE is going to prefer, or SUSE is going to prefer SUSE products." That it makes sense. But there's a reason because the products that he implemented and the patterns that he implemented and the architecture and expertise that he brought were second to none, I don't think that we could have done better with any other distribution of Kubernetes. He recommended a K3s is a very lightweight Kubernetes distribution that had really good opinions. It's a single binary. It was very easy to deploy and manage and update and it just, it really didn't break. That was the best thing that we were looking for (chuckles) it was one solid piece with no moving parts, relatively speaking. And so Chris Nuber was very essential in providing the Kubernetes architecture while Chris Tacky was the one who helped us write some of the demo applications and build the fail over and out of band interaction that we were going to have from the hardware on the satellite to the Kubernetes control plane. >> Very cool. It sounds like you had a great collaborative team there, which is essential in any environment. >> We deed. >> And I liked how you described space as a logistical adventure that reminds me very much of my days at NASA. (Bren laughing) It definitely is a logistical adventure to put it mildly. Talk to me a little bit about the work that you're doing to define the Edge for the Department of Defense? That sounds very intriguing. >> Yeah, so this was almost a direct result of what happened with the sat one experiment where Rob Slaughter and a few of the other folks who saw what we did with sat one, you know, were again, logistical adventure. We built this entire thing and we worked so hard and we're moving through fright flight readiness checks and as things happen, funding kind of went. And so you've got all this experience and this like, prototype that this really confident that it's space ready and everything and they said, "hey, listen, you know, we have the same problem on our flight with terrestrial environments, they're nearly identical the only difference is, you know, you don't have to worry about radiation nearly as much." (laughing) So then, you know, we joked about that and we started this new idea, this Edge One idea as part of the AVMs program, where they're figuring out this new, like battlefield communications pattern of the future. And one of the things that they're really concerned about is secure processing and how do you do applications at like where people are stationed, which could be anywhere in very remote locations. Then that's what turned into Edge One is, you know, we imagined initially Edge One as satellite one without wings and earth bound and that grew into, well, what about submarines? What about carriers? What about command and control squadrons that are stationed in cities? What about special operators that are far forward? What about first responders who are moving into, you know, hazardous environmental conditions? Can you wear a Kubernetes cluster with like super low power arm chips? And so we started thinking of all these different applications of what Edge could be anywhere from a five volt board all the way up to a data center in a box. And that caused us to realize that we're going to break Edge into really three categories based on the amount of material or resources needed to power it and how hard it is to get to. So we have the Near Edge, which is, you know, you have data center like capabilities, and it's easy to get to it, but you, because you have people stationed with it, but you may have reached back once every month or so. So think, you know, a shift that's underway or an air gap system or something like that. And then you have a Tiny Edge, which is exactly like kind of the more traditional idea that you think of when you think of Edge, which is really, really tiny compute, maybe it's on a windmill or something I don't really know, pick your thing to put Kubernetes on that should never have Kubernetes, that's the kind of thing. And then you've got Far Edge, which is, you know, if the control plane crashes, good luck, you'll never getting to it. And so that would be a satellite. And so the far it... so really a lot of these, it depends on the failure mode. Like what happens when it fails and that for the most part defines kind of what category you're going to be in. >> Tiny Edge, Near Edge and Far Edge. I think Sir. Richard Branson and his team went to the Far Edge (chuckles) low Earth orbit >> He did (laughing). >> This last weekend, I guess, yeah. That low Earth orbit does seem like it would be the Far Edge. Talk to me a little bit about, I mean, you talk about these applications then from a defense perspective that very dramatically, what are some of the important lessons that you've learned besides if it breaks in the Far Edge, you're not getting to it. >> Some of the important lessons that we learned. So I actually did this exact job in the air force. I was a combat communicator, which meant that we took, by pure coincidence I'm back in this, like, I did not intend for this to happen its pure coincidence, (Lisa laughing) but, you know, we communicate, we went out to the Edge, right. We went out to the Near Edge and we did all of this stuff. And the biggest lesson, I think learning from doing this or doing that and then going into this is that the world doesn't have to revolve around SharePoint anymore (Lisa laughing) because we can shape our own habitation (Both laughing) >> That is good to know. >> If it can be done on SharePoint, the air force and the army will do it in SharePoint, I promise you. They've done some actually terrifying things with it. All joking aside though, I think that one of the things that we learned was the difference between like something being complex and complicated when it came to systems engineering and management, like this is a very complex system it's actually orders of magnitude more complex than the current deployments that are out there which is effectively VMware and you're migrating virtual machines across multiple physical nodes in these remote data centers. But it's also complicated, it's really difficult to manage these deployments and the hardware. And I remember like when I was in combat comm, we had this 72 hour goal to get all of our systems up. And it was kind of like a 50-50, if we would make it, it felt like most of the time where you had priorities for getting things up and running. And obviously, you know, that certain applications weren't as important as others. So they were the ones that had to fall on the wayside if you're going to make your 72 hour mark. But I'm just thinking about like how difficult it was to deploy and manage all of this stuff and now with Kubernetes, yes, the complexity is far higher, but we can make it so it's not as complicated. We can offload a lot of that brain sweat, the people in the rear echelon, where they can connect in remotely after you come up and you get reached back, they push your config and your mission profile is there. And now you're focused on the mission you're not focused on debugging pods, and you're focused on the mission and not focused on, you know, why my virtual machine didn't migrate or something like that. And we can get applications that are built in-house and updated continuously, and we can verify and validate the sources of where these things are coming from. And all of these are important problems to everybody, not just the military, but the military tends to have the money and the ability to think about these things first, 'cause that's where these problems tend to get solved first. >> So interesting. You've sort of had this circular experience being in the air force, now coming back and working on projects like this, what are some of the things that Hypergiant has learned? And some of the things that are next next for Hypergiant as a company? >> I think that we are getting really good at being a small contractor in the Federal space where we actually were just awarded an IDIQ with a cap of $950 million in a small group of, I think, 23 other companies. And so that shows right there the investment that the Federal Government has in us and the potential that they see for us to build and deliver these highly tailored and specialized solutions. The other thing that we've learned is how to form like coalitions to collaborate with a lot of these other smaller companies. I think that the days of seeing the Defense Industrial Base dominated by the same four people or five people are over. And it's not that these people, I mean, they've been, they've basically been propping up most of the defense industry for a very long time and I think a lot of people would argue that, you know, this is a problem, right, you have this near monopoly of a very few people, but the other thing is that they're not as nimble, they grow by acquisition and we have this ability to be highly tailored and specialized and we don't need to do everything in the world to survive. We can go and form coalitions with other groups to go solve a particular problem. Like we're great at AI and ML, and we're great at DevSecOps, then maybe we're not so great at, you know, hardware or you know, things like that. Like we can go partner up with these people and solve problems together and we don't have to be a Boeing to do it and you don't have to go hire a Boeing to do this. And I think that's really, really great, no slight to Boeing, but I think it's really great that it's a lot easier for smaller companies to do this and we are navigating this new world and we're bringing Agile into the government and that's, yeah, in some cases we have to drag them, kicking and screaming into this decade, but, you know, that's what we're doing and I'm very excited to see that because when I was in Agile and DevOps, those were words you didn't say, you weren't allowed to do that. >> No. >> Now they've done a complete 180, it's really cool. >> That's cool. I have a minimum that brings in thought diversity, having more companies to work with, but to your point, the agility that you bring in as a smaller company helping them to actually embrace Agile, that's huge because to your point, that's kind of historically not what government organizations are used to. So it sounds like a little bit they've learned a tremendous amount from working with small companies like Pepperdine. >> I like the thing so. Platform One is a fantastic example. So it was really started as a what we're calling software factories within the air force and within the DOD and other DOD branches have now started to replicate the pattern. So we have several software factories within the air force and Platform One is like the DevSecOps Software factory, and we have the ski camp and space camping, Kobayashi Maru and you're noticing a theme here (laughing) and so they're very nerdy names, but so we have these software factories and there's all these projects are being worked. But one of the amazing things I noticed when I showed up to work on the first day was that I had no idea who was uniformed and who was civilian. It was a completely badge off rank, off situation. Very few people showed up in uniform and the ones that did typically had their blouse off so you had no idea what their rank was. Everybody went by first name and we behaved like a start-up. And these civilians were coming from other startups like Hypergiant or a Timo or other very small, very specialized groups and SUSE RGS, of course they were there too and they're embedded in several different teams. And so you have this, like this quasi company that got this startup really that got formed and the culture is very, you know, very varies, you know, bay area startup type in some ways, for both better and worse. There's, I mean, we're, definitely full tilt on (laughs) on the Agile train there, but it's just, it's like nothing I've ever seen inside the DOD. And they're not just learning from these small companies and from Agile companies, but they're behaving like them. And it's spreading, they're seeing what work is getting done and what can be accomplished and how you can continuously deliver value instead of working for, you know, six or eight months and then showing the customer something and them hating it and you sending it back and, you know, it's more of a continuous improvement type thing. And I think that they're embracing that and I'm very excited to see it. >> That's important 'cause changing a culture is incredibly hard but seeing and hearing that they're embracing that is exciting. And I'm sure there's going to be many more things you could talk about generally, but I got to ask you if somebody like SUSE gave you $250,000, and you could buy one of the tickets on Branson's next flight, would you do it? >> I mean, yeah, why would I not? Like, how can I pass up a trip, (Lisa laughing) you know, go to the Edge of space. >> The Far Edge. >> Like yeah, the Far Edge, maybe I'll just, you know, hurdle the satellite out the window, as you know, we're up there, you know, peak and probably could throw it quite that fast, but we'll see. (Lisa laughing) But yeah, no, I think I would take the trip, yeah, that'd be fun. >> You're brave. Brave than I'm, I don't know. Well, Bren it's been delightful talking to you. Thank you for sharing what you guys at Hypergiant and SUSE have been doing together, the Department of Defense, the exciting things going on there and for the new definitions and my lexicon of the Edge, it's been great talking to you. >> Thank you, have a great day. >> You too. For Bren Briggs, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching a CUBE Conversation. (digital music)