>>live from San Diego, California It's the Q covering Koopa and Cloud Native Cot brought to you by Red Cloud. Native Computing Pounding and its ecosystem March >>Welcome back. This is the cubes coverage. Fourth year of Q Khan Cloud native Khan, 2019 Here in San Diego. I am still Minutemen like co host for this afternoon is Justin Warrant and happy to welcome to the program A first time guests, but was on the keynote stage yesterday Sougou Super Marine, who is the co founder and CEO of Planet Scale and also one of the, uh, we're gonna be talking about the test which graduated, announced on the stage. They didn't put a cap and gown or roll everything out, which they did a couple of years ago. But first, thanks so much for joining us. And congratulations. Thank you. All right, so, Sougou, bring us back. You know, we're talking about a cloud native database and we'll dig into that and everything, but bring us back to what you were working on. And you know why of what we now call >>so the When we started with us, we were really not thinking of cloud native itself. for say, it was kind of a sequence of events that kind of forced with us to become cloud native long before cloud native was actually born as even the term was born. Which was when we had to move the test from YouTube on print into Google's board, which use the predecessor off Cooper natives. Um, the reason why the test is kind of one of the leading storage projects in Cloud Native was because it was probably the first project that remained open source, even though we managed to ram it with >>work. Yeah, you know what? One of things we've been talking about at the show here is you know, in the early days, you know, we were very much talking about infrastructure, but we know the reason we have infrastructure is to run applications, and one of the most important applications is databases, and I talk to customers. It's not just one database. Often they have many different databases on, and that is one of the big challenges today. So, you know, you kind of look at that landscape, help us understand how this fits into that. That overall picture. >>Yeah, so that kind of goes back in tow, Google's history and how that can influence kubernetes itself. So if you look at Google's board, most off its features are meant for running stateless application. So within Google, people who wrote applications when they wanted to store state they just called out into a service that was semi part of board but wasn't itself run by board as if you would run your application. So many of those properties were inherited by Cooper natives. So which is the reason why? Um, right from the beginning, it was hard to make storage work for cover natives on Dhe. For that reason, even a zoo recently as early this year, If you look at the tweets from Kelsey Hightower, don't just move your database into communities. You're going to regret it. People still say that, but at the same time, because we test way, we're able to figure out howto make storage work under the stringent rules that Borg had, which was mainly to support stateless applications. In other words, we actually land because, as if it was a stateless application, while still managing while still making state state will not survive this stateless behavior, which is actually why we just managed to be launched within communities as soon as it was born. Ah, but it has been a struggle for other people because they didn't have the luxury of preparing for it without even knowing. Uh so I think that more effort needs to be made on both sides, both from people who are writing storage to make them work with communities as well as kubernetes itself, trying to meet them halfway, trying to add features to help the storage developers. >>It has been a real struggle. I remember from even the very first show I came to four years ago in Seattle looking at the set. My media thing is an ex storage guy and has a backup guy was to go and look at things and say OK, this is lovely for stateless applications, you said. But riel applications have data in them and they need to maintain state. Where's the state looking at all of the group in any type of things, like there were no state full sets with another thing that has changed a lot in four years, and people have come to the party and we need to be able to manage state. But now that you we have a database like a test, isn't that just taking things to the point where I as an app developer, I can just write my stateless application and then my data can live inside a data management service like a test? So I don't actually need to deal with any of that state management problem myself. >>That's what it amounts to. Uh, the the one property of the test is that it can run both in communities and outside. So there are people who run tests on Prem and they have their own orchestration layer. So that has given some challenge where we just cannot depend on communities. You cannot call into communities a p I s o. The way we have the architect of the test is that it knows when it runs within a orchestrated environment, how to interact with it, but it doesn't assume that it exists. So >>why have you provided that functionality? Is that because customers said that I actually want to be able to run the test, But I don't wanna have to deal with kubernetes >>exactly like so not everyone has migrated to communities. It is surprising that everybody wants to migrate communities. But then many of them are saying, I don't know how many years out it is on. Then for them, we just solved a different problem, which is the problem of sheer massive scale ability on dhe for them. They want to be able to still run with us on print s. So for that reason, that is actually a small gap between communities and the test itself. On dhe, we're filling that gap with health charts in the open source on Dhe Planet Scale, which is the company that I founded has built an operator that we're also going to open source so that people can use that to launch community >>before we talk about planet scale You. No, no, no, no. Absolutely. In the keynote you had some customer stories on might might help illustrate some what we're talking about, you know, the scalability of the environment, everything. So you know, I'll let you choose that kind of a short example. You know, the slack One you know, is one that I think president in the audience there. But >>I would choose slack. Ah, Jerry's always obviously enormous, but I will choose slack and nozzle because they represent two very different but really genuine needs in the industry. Slack once not just massive scale, but they want flexibility with manipulating data on DDE. That is something that is manipulating data really, really hard. Onda. We believe that we found the secret sauce to make that work with tests, and that is the reason you saw those statements from Slack. They're so passionate and with so much conviction, that is because they were fascinated by what we could do with their data. So that is one example and slack does not run on communities. They don't run on cloud. They run on AWS, but they don't they run it like they their own claim. They have very fixed I p addresses fixed instance names, but they're on it like a cloud. Sometimes I would say they are more coordinated behavior than some applications that run on kubernetes like they treat everything as disposable. When something goes away, they don't try to recover it or anything destroyed out. Replace it with something new, which is property off cloud native behavior. And on the other hand, a company like nozzle because they're they're actually a startup on dhe. It is surprising that why would the start of one to use? Ah, something that is Mento scale. Massively. That's when we realized that the cloud native nature of it does fills a gap that currently is not filled by many people, which is I want to run everything in Cooper natives all in one. And we didn't realize until they showed us what they did with it, which is, like, completely migrate from one cloud to another. They're a super amazing. And I heard it on dhe. They did that without even telling me are telling anybody in the community because one day I talked to them. They say they are on a key s on. A few days later, I still assumed that they are Nikki s and they know of your booty. Jakey, when did you do this? Oh, we did that last month because we got some really good deal with them, super exciting, >>and that that is a surprising, exactly affected. That's surprising. It is a bit of a concern to me because we hear a lot of talk about multi cloud and the idea of applications being being mobile between different clouds. Data movement is really hot. Exactly. So the fact that someone has actually managed to do that and haven't moved from one community service across to another one is that we find that remarkable because we know it's such a hard problem. But that's one of the great things I think about kubernetes, which is possibly under appreciated, is that it's not that it makes everything easy, but it makes what What used to be hard is now >>possible. Yes, yes, yes, that is very true. Yeah, it's, um uh, like it took It took us a while to, uh, think to make this mind shit, because some of these things, even though they're like it looks, looks looks very obvious. But for the longest time, we were, you're saying, tested for massive scale ability. It's for It's what this and that and even two years ago, up sport came and said, We're going to use the tests for communities orchestration. Weird, but okay, feel free. We don't have a problem with it. And then nozzle came out, and now suddenly you see Oh, this is this is why. And this Saul's really, really difficult problem on. They all did especially hot Spot. Did a lot of work in with tests to actually make it easier. But now we see Now we see the light. >>So Sougou Planet scales the company. Help us understand Vitesse planet scale. How that fits together. What's kind of the business model for your company? >>Yeah. So, um uh, so the test was originally developed at YouTube by you, too. There was one thing That was some pressure. We were beginning to feel when we developed it. We didn't mean for anybody to use it. Really. It was open source, more for academic reasons to show that we can do these things on. But it was interesting when people started adopting it. You're adopting this system. Okay, so we'll see what we can do to help you. But after a while, when the community started growing, some of them were contributing. But definitely storage is a difficult software to write, too. It's not like a pitiful software. Any anybody can understand the cord and start writing. It was obvious that the number of people wanting to use with death and wanting peaches from it are also people that we're not really capable of. writing those features because they're really hard features, too. Right on DDE. That pressure was going and they were saying all I wish you two could do this for me. You know, YouTube is a video company. They're not in the We just did this for ourselves. There's no reason for us to spend so many person years they've left in the future for you. And that time it became obvious that we need to start a company to support this community where there's this huge growing demand, Which is kind of what motivated towards us, uh, thinking about starting planet scale and one requirement waas It cannot remain a YouTube project at that point. So which is why we work it out that way, will actually move it to see NCF. And then I ended up leaving. You do have to start planet scale with my co founder. Then >>so is just from a business standpoint, is that service is on their customers ask for things and fun that that that gets contributed upskirt stream. >>So that was initially what we thought we will do. Initially we thought it was just get out laptops and start helping people that that was our initial thinking. But what we realized was at the same time the industry has shifted towards this new business model which is to actually run everything as a service. And we realized, Oh, my God, years All we have to do is we know how to run with us. You've done it at YouTube. You help people deployed with testing various companies. You know exactly what it takes to run with us. All we have to do is take this. I'm does the service. And that's exactly what people want. Because otherwise, because of the fact that we tested this flexible, it is also extremely complex, too confident because it can run on frame. Then you have to sit all these flags. You runnin carbonate is you said all these flags. So all this has to be managed and we realized, OK, we can manage this and we know exactly how to make it work. And we actually just announced two days ago that our planet scale CNDP Cloud native database is available for people to come in use. >>Well, congratulations on the progress of the business as well as the test graduation and thank you. So much for joining us here on the Cube. Thank you. Alright for Justin Warren. I'm stupid Men. We will be back with more of our day. Two of three days. Whoa! Wall coverage here from San Diego. Thank you for watching the Cube.

>> Narrator: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. Brought to you by Red Hat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Docker, Docker, Docker. No, you're in the right place. This is KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2019 here in San Diego. I'm Stu Miniman kicking off three days of live, wall to wall coverage. My co-host for most of the week this week is John Troyer. Justin Warren's also in the house. He'll be hosting for me. And a big shout out to John Furrier who's back at the corporate ranch in Palo Alto keeping an eye on all the CloudNative stuff with us. The reason that I actually mentioned Docker is because it is the first thing that is on our lips this week. Just this week, Docker, which is the company that, if it wasn't for Docker, we wouldn't have 12,500 people here at this event. Really democratized containers. But the company itself built out a platform, millions and millions of companies using containers. But when the orchestration layer came in there was some contention, there's lots of politics. I'm waiting for Docker the Broadway musical to come out to talk about all the ins and outs there because Kubernetes really sucked the air out of the CloudNative world. Spawned tons of projects here. As you can see behind us, this ecosystem is massive and swelling. Last year it was 8,000 people, year before it was 4,000 people, so many people here, so. And John, so, let's start. This is your first time at this show, you've done many shows with us, definitely covered some of the cloud-native, you've worked with many of the companies that are in this ecosystem here. Give me your first impressions here of KubeCon CloudNativeCon. >> Sure, sure. Well, I mean Stu, 12,000 people, it's pretty crowded here. We're right by the t-shirt line, on day one of the conference. Look, a conference this big, especially an open source conference, there's several jobs to be done, right. This is an active set of open source projects and open source communities. So a lot of the keynote this morning was updating people on details about the latest releases, the latest features, what's in, what's out, what's going on. CNCF is a very broad umbrella for a very broad number of projects, not a coherent opinionated stack, it's a lot of different things that all contribute to a set of CloudNative technologies. So, that's job one. Job two, it's a trade show, and it's an industry show, and people are coming here to figure out how to build and learn and operate. So, that wasn't particularly well served by the keynote this morning. There was certainly a lot of hands-on this week. There's a huge number of breakouts, there's a huge number of tracks. Even day zero, which is a set of specialty breakout workshops and sessions, everything was packed. There were over a dozen of those. So, what strikes me is the breadth here is that it's a mile wide. I won't say it's an inch deep, because there's some, but it is a mile wide. >> Yeah, yeah, John you are right, there's so much going on. The day zero tracks are amazing. I think there were over two dozen, maybe even more of the sessions where, you know, half-day or full day deep dives. Even talk, there was some other small events even that went on for two or three days leading up to this. So, sprawling ecosystem. Last year at this show in Seattle, I actually said that this show is the independent cloud show that we've been looking for. John, I was at Microsoft Ignite just a couple of weeks ago, and absolutely, Satya Nadella, they're not talking about the bits and the bytes. It's a, you know, Microsoft is your trusted partner for everything you're going to do, including building 50 billion new applications. Amazon Reinvent will just be right after Thanksgiving, and we will hear a very different message from Amazon and where they play. But this is not a company, it is a lot of different projects. The CNCF is the steward of this, and so Kubernetes is the one that gets all the attention. I think for this group to even grow more, it needs to be focused more on the CloudNativeCon, because how do we do cloud-native? You know, what does that mean? We heard, you know, Sugu was up on stage talking about Vitess, and he said, look, if you bake your database directly in fully Kubernetes cloud-native, that means that when you want to move between clouds you bring your data with you. So, data, security, networking, messaging, there's so many pieces here. It's a lot of work to be done to mature this stack, but it definitely is getting more mature. You start hearing many of these projects with a million or more downloads a month. So many pieces. John, what are you looking to dig into this week, what are you most excited for, what questions do you want answered? >> Well, here on theCUBE I'm always excited when we get to talk to people in production, customers, really see what's going on. There's a lot of stuff in production right now, which is not to say a lot of stuff isn't bleeding edge, right. I hear a lot of stuff, just out of the woodwork, about things that are fragile, things that aren't ready, things that are not quite updated, and I think Kubernetes is an architectural as well as a spiritual home for everything. But there's a lot of pieces that plug in, and there are opinionated ways of doing it, there are best of breed way, there are vertically integrated stacks. What's the best approach, it's not clear to me. I mean if you have to look at it from a company perspective, who are the winners and losers, I don't think that's a very productive way of looking at it. I'm interested in some projects like, we're going to be talking with Rancher, and they've got some announcements, but I'm also interested in K3s, which is their project there. I'm been hearing some really interesting things on the storage front. You know, all these things are really necessary. It's not all just magic containers moving around. You got to actually get the bits and bytes into the right place at the right time and backed up. >> Yeah, I love that you brought up K3s. Edge is definitely something that I hear talking a lot, because if you talk about cloud-native, it's not just about public cloud. Many of these things can run in my on-premises data centers and everything like that. >> And Edge fits in all of these environments, so. Right, winners and losers, I remember two years ago, first time I got a chance to interview Kelsey Hightower, who we do have on the program. He had actually taken a couple shows off, but he's back here at the show. I said Kelsey, why are we spending so much talking about Kubernetes? Doesn't this just get baked into every platform? And he's like, yeah totally, that's not the importance of it. It's not about distributions, and not about who's who, any of the software companies, it's how do they pull all of the pieces together. How do they add value on top of it. One of the terms I've heard mentioned a lot is, we need to think a lot about day two. Heck, there was even one of the companies that was heavy in this space, Mesosphere, they renamed the company Day Two IQ, spelled D2IQ. No relation to R2D2. But you know, that's what they are focused on to help these things really go together. So yeah, we talk about multicloud, and how do I get my arms around all of these pieces, how do I manage a sprawling environment. You add Edge into it. I've got a huge surface of attack for security issues. So, John, remember cloud was supposed to be simple and cheap, and it really isn't either of those things anymore, so yeah, a lot for us to dig into. >> Yeah, it'll be an interesting mix. Developers, experts, people brand new, probably half the people here they're the first time, and people coming over from the IT space as well as people coming from the open source space and I even saw this morning this is the biggest conference I've ever been to. So it's a many, it's different parts of the elephant, I'd say. >> Yeah, absolutely. It is a good sized conference, especially for open source it probably is the largest. But Salesforce Dreamforce is going on this week, which is more than an order of magnitude bigger, so my condolences to anybody in San Francisco right now, because we know the BART and everything else completely swamped with too many people. One other thing, you know, CNCF, what's really interesting for me always is when you look at a lot of these projects, the people that we saw up on stage were companies, it was the person that oh, I started this project and I'm the technical lead on it, and that's where I'm going. We've interviewed many of the people that start these projects, and they come many times out of industry. It's not a vendor that said, hey, I built something and I'm selling it. It is companies like Uber and Lyft that said, we did things at massive scale, we had a problem, we built something, we thought it was useful for us. Open source seemed a good way to help us get broader visibility and maybe everybody could help, and other people not only pitch in, but say this is hugely valuable, and that's where we go with it. So, it's something we, a narrative I've heard for years about everybody's going to be a software company, well, almost everybody at this conference is building software. We've heard about 30 to 40% of the people attending this show are developers, and therefore many of them are going to build products. A question I have and I'll give you is, with Docker, we just kicked off talking about Docker. You know, Docker created this huge wave of what happens there, but to put it bluntly, Docker the business failed. So, they are not dead, there's the piece that's in Mirantis, there's the piece doing the developer piece. We wish all of them the best of luck, but they had the opportunity to be the next VMware, and instead they are the company that gave us this wave, but did not capitalize on it. So, I look around and I see so many companies, and you say, "Hey, what are you?" "Oh, we're the creators of X technology in this project," and my question is, are you actually going to be able to make money and do a business, or is this just something that gets fit into the overall ecosystem. John, any thoughts and advice for those kind of companies. >> Well, I mean we are here, even though there's 12,000 people here, this is still very leading edge, right. There's a lot of pieces, parts here. We're not sure how they're all going to fit together. A lot of the projects have come out of real use cases, like you say, but they're, it's commercial viability is a different beast than utility. Docker was very good at developer experience, but the DNA of actually selling an enterprise management stack is a whole different beast, and there are a lot of those too. So I mean I think a lot of the companies here may not be around, but their technologies will live on. I think if you're here, and the interviews here at the show I think will be a, you'll want to have your antenna out to see like, okay, does this give you a feeling like this is solving a real problem and is incorporated in a real ecosystem. You know, the big company, it cuts both ways, right. Some of the times those technologies get absorbed and become the standard, sometimes they disappear. So the advice is you just put one foot in front of the other and try to find people in production. That's the only way at the end of the day that you could move ahead as a small company. >> All right, John, I gave you one piece of advice when we came here and I said, you know one thing we don't talk about at this show, we don't talk about OpenStack. So, I'm going to break that rule for a second here, just 'cause I feel we have as an industry learned some of the lessons. There is some of the irrational exuberance around some of these. There's lots of money being thrown at these environments, but I do feel that we are reaching maturity and adoption so much faster, because we are not trying to replacing something. The early days of OpenStack was, you know, we're your alternative for AWS, and we're going to get you off of VMware licensing. And both of those things were, they didn't happen for the most part. And OpenStack did fit in certain environments, especially outside of North America there's lots of OpenStack deployments. The telecommunications environment OpenStack is used a bunch. Telecom, another area, talk about Edge, that plays in here and we have a number of conversations. But there are both the big and the small companies when I look at our list of people we're going to be talking on the program. You know, I love first the customers. We've got Fidelity, Bloomberg, Red Cross, and Ford Motor Company all on the program, and we've got big companies, mega giants like Cisco, Hewlett Packard Enterprise, as well as couple of companies that came out of stealth like in the last week, including Render and Chronosphere. So, you know, broad spectrum of what's going on. You've done some of the OpenStack shows with me. You've got a long community and ecosystem viewpoint, John. What do you think and what do you hear, yeah. >> You know, this is, I guess yeah, this is a next generation, you could look at it that way. Anytime you bring together one of these open source foundations, you know, it is kind of a new style of development. You do have differing agendas. People do again have to have their antenna up to see, is this person promoting this open source project and what is their commercial interest in it. Because there are different agendas here. But it looks pretty healthy. Look, there's probably a million engineers worldwide that are going to have to know the guts of Kubernetes, but it's a different job to be done than OpenStack. OpenStack community is actually, that exists, is still thriving. It is good for the job to be done there. This job to be done's a little different. I think it's going to be an engine, you know, the engine that's embedded in everything else. So there's going to be a hundred million engineers that don't need to know anything about Kubernetes, but people here are the people that pop the hood open and start to you know, mess with the carburetor and this is a carburetor show. And so for the coverage here we're going to try to up level it to talk about the business a little bit, but this feels important. It feels cross-cloud, it feels outside of any one silo, and I'm really interested to see what we're going to learn this week. >> Okay, and thank you John. I really appreciate it to get it right final. It's like what is our job here? We are an independent media organization. Yes, we did bring our own stickers here to be able to, you know, we know everybody here loves stickers, so we've got theCUBE and we've got the fun gopher one, our friends at Women Who Go that support this, because, you know, inclusion, diversity, something that this community definitely embraces, we are huge supporters of their, but right, we want to be able to give that broad viewpoint of everything. We're not going to be able to get into every project. We're not going to go as deep as the day zero content web, but give a good flavor for everything going on in the show. I've found of all the shows I've gone to in recent years, this is some of the biggest brains in the industry. There's a lot of really important stuff, so I appreciate bringing my PHD holding co-host with me, John. Looking forward to three days with you to dig into all the environment. All right, so we will be wall to wall coverage, three days. If you're at the event, we are here in the expo hall. You can't miss us, we've got the big lights right next to the CloudNativeCon store. If you're online of course reach out to us. I'm @stu, S-T-U on Twitter. He's @jtroyer, and hit us up, see us in person, come grab some stickers, let us know who you want to talk to and what question you have, and as always, thank you for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)