>> Announcer: Live from Orlando, Florida, it's theCUBE. Covering Grace Hopper Celebration of Women in Computing. Brought to you by Silicon Angle Media. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of the Grace Hopper Celebration in Orlando, Florida. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight along with my co-host, Jeff Frick. We are here with Brenda Darden Wilkerson. She is the new president and CEO of the Anita Borg institute. Thank you so much for joining us. >> I'm so excited to be here. >> This is a new position for you. >> Absolutely. >> But you've obviously been involved with the Anita Borg Institute for your career. At least been aware of it. So tell us a little bit about what this appointment means to you. >> Oh, it's so exciting. It's like coming full circle back to a tech career that I started. Back to understanding the needs of women having been there. Gone through the various stages of my career and then going into education. Helping encourage women into a career in tech. And now being able to advocate for them to be able to contribute at whatever stage they're in. Whether they are just entering or whether they're one of the women who have been in tech for a long time and are getting promoted into C-suite. Or whether or not they went through traditional education pathway to get in or if they learned on their own. So it's very exciting. >> And it cannot be as hard as the challenge that you just accomplished. I'm so impressed. Getting computer science as a requirement in the Chicago School District. >> Yes, yes. >> I mean that must've been quite a battle. I can only imagine. >> It was. It was, but you know when you want something, and you believe in it, it is amazing how you find other people who believe like you do. And you form a collaborative partnership that's really about caring about people. >> Jeff: Right. >> Many of us had been in tech and we had had the challenges and myself, personally, I came about computer science accidentally. I went to college thinking I was going to go into medicine. So I was pre-med. So I only learned about computer science accidentally. And of course obviously it changed my trajectory. It's been my career path and I was fine with that. Until years later when we were working on making computer science core, I was doing some lobbying on Capital Hill on a panel with a bunch of people. One happened to be a 19 year old girl who had a story similar to mine. And I thought how could this still be happening? >> Jeff: Right, right. >> How can people not have this choice and have this exposure early in life so that they know how to choose to contribute to the thing that's changing the way we live every single day. >> So do you see it changing? I mean we talked about this so many times on theCUBE. You know, that the core curriculum is the core curriculum. It's been there forever. >> Yes, yes, yes. >> And then the funny joke, right? Go back 100 years, nothing looks familiar except if you go to the school. I mean they're still reading the same Mark Twain book, right? >> Brenda: Right, right. >> Do you see it changing 'cause computing is such a big part of everyday life now. And it should be core everywhere. I mean the fact that you got that through, do you see it changing in a broader perspective from, kind of, your point of view? >> I do, I do. Education changes slowly, unfortunately. But actually when you look at, we launched computer science for all in 2013. And now it is an initiative that is national. The Obama White House embraced it and we were so proud. And it made the knowledge of going after computer science as something that all educators should really be thinking about as early as kindergarten for our students. It is making a difference in the lives of women. I've seen girls who many times would have been talked out of getting into a technical field by high school. For the few that could trickle in and get into those one or two classes that used to be available. I'm seeing girls learn that they could be innovators as early as five, six, or seven years old. Okay, so I'm just waiting to see the world that they're going to create for us when all of them. Because now, in Chicago, they're required to have computer science to graduate. So that's everyone so that's the key. It's computer science for all. And it is making a change. Not just for the kids, but the educators. I'm seeing women educators go, I could do this? I could get in and teach computer science? I could create something? That's exciting. >> So the Anita Borg Institute does so much good work around these issues. From getting computers into the hands of kindergartners to helping women on the verge of C-suite jobs in some of the biggest tech companies in the world. Where do you want to focus? As the new president, what are some of your special pet projects that you want to look at in the upcoming years? >> So I really want to think about how we dig into intersectionality. I want to first and foremost make vivid for more women of different backgrounds, who may have traditionally been left out of the equation, that there is an opportunity here for you if you want it. Okay, so that's about listening to them. That's about building additional alliances. That's about figuring out how to partner with organizations that we're all going in the same direction, right? So that more people that bring their unique lenses and experiences can help us create solutions, products, services that serve better just because they're there. So that's the first and most important thing. But then of course to, in order to do that, we have to figure out how to accelerate the work that anitab.org does in helping companies to figure out how to solve any problems that they may be having about diversifying their work force. So that's the other half of the equation. >> Do you see that the message is resonating? And this, I mean, you've been in the tech industry for, you're a veteran of the tech industry. Let's just say it, let's just put it at that. Let's just put it at that. But do you, I mean, just in terms of what we've been saying here too is that it's a lot of the same stuff. A lot of the same biases. And then there's things like to Google Manifesto which was this year, you know? And you just think, are we really still talking about this? I mean, where are you on the spectrum of completely discouraged to hopeful and inspired? >> Oh, I'm hopeful. I mean, look around you. (laughing) Look around you at all these women who are also hopeful. I am hopeful for them. We are hopeful together. And I think many times some of the remarks or things that happen out there are just an indication that maybe we're getting closer to moving that needle, you know? Sometimes that's when you hear from people is when changes are being made. So I'm not discouraged at all. I'm very excited to be on this team. It's a very powerful team. And to create the coalitions that our women are counting on us to do. >> It's pretty interesting with a lot of the negative stuff that happens in the news. And it actually has a really bright silver lining. And that it kind of coalesces people in ways that wouldn't necessarily happen. >> That's right, that's right. >> I thought your comment kind of about overt, or no, I guess the last guest. Overt, kind of, discrimination versus, kind of, less overt. It's harder to fight the less overt. So when somebody shines a big bright light on it, it actually, in a way, is a blessing because then it surfaces this thing. >> The stuff that's kind of, you know, it's lukewarm. It's easy for people to explain away. Even if it's really obvious to most people. But when it is as overt as it's been, it's out there now. It's like now we have something that we all have to deal with. It's not, you know, we can't be lukewarm and mealy mouth about it. Let's go to work and address this because it's so obvious. So in that way it's a silver lining. >> Jeff: Right, right. >> But the culture war that we're dealing with this. With what Melinda Gates was describing as the brogrammers. The hoodie guys, the sea of white dudes. >> Yes. >> Where we think all the great ideas are coming from. >> Brenda: Yeah. >> What is you feeling on how do we combat that? >> So, you know, here's an interesting perspective. I'm going to put a call on the entertainment industry. >> Rebecca: Okay. >> To put more images out there that are representative of what's really happening, right? So, you know, I have a sister that's a lawyer. And she's older than I am. And there was a time when you just didn't see very many images of women lawyers or women doctors. But if you watch television, you watch the movies, there are plenty of those now and the numbers. People can be what they can see. But if the images out there are all about the sea of white men. Then we will fight that struggle because people are impacted by what they see. >> Rebecca: The power of representation. >> The power, absolutely. And so I'm calling on people who have the power to change the images to do so. And to show the truth of what's really going on. >> Okay, so Hollywood, are you listening? (laughing) Do you have any final advice for the young women who are here. And maybe it's their first Grace Hopper Conference. >> Yeah, yeah. >> What do you think they should do to get the most out of their experience here in Orlando this week? >> Well, first of all, I'm so glad that you're here and I want you to be encouraged that there is a sisterhood. There is a community that cares about you that has seen some of the same things, some of the challenges. And maybe you don't even know about yet. But together, we can make a better world. We can be the change agents that we already are but on a such bigger scale. So, you know, go for it. Don't ever let fear stop you. And you will make a success out of whatever you're going after. >> Those are words to live by. >> Yeah, we need to get a bigger boat though. You got 18,000 people. >> I know. >> That's right. >> You can't get that on you IM placard. >> That's right, that's right. That's a new solution for tomorrow. (laughing) >> Great, well, Brenda, thanks so much. We're so excited for you and to be here at Grace Hopper again. >> Thank you so much. I appreciate being here. >> Great event, great event. >> Okay, thank you. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Jeff Frick. We will have more from Grace Hopper in a little bit.

(gentle bright music) >> Okay, welcome back to our "Supercloud 2" event live coverage here at stage performance in Palo Alto syndicating around the world. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. We've got exclusive news and a scoop here for SiliconANGLE and theCUBE. Zhamak Dehghani, creator of data mesh has formed a new company called NextData.com NextData, she's a cube alumni and contributor to our Supercloud initiative, as well as our coverage and breaking analysis with Dave Vellante on data, the killer app for Supercloud. Zhamak, great to see you. Thank you for coming into the studio and congratulations on your newly formed venture and continued success on the data mesh. >> Thank you so much. It's great to be here. Great to see you in person. >> Dave: Yeah, finally. >> John: Wonderful. Your contributions to the data conversation has been well-documented certainly by us and others in the industry. Data mesh taking the world by storm. Some people are debating it, throwing, you know, cold water on it. Some are, I think, it's the next big thing. Tell us about the data mesh super data apps that are emerging out of cloud. >> I mean, data mesh, as you said, it's, you know, the pain point that it surfaced were universal. Everybody said, "Oh, why didn't I think of that?" You know, it was just an obvious next step and people are approaching it, implementing it. I guess the last few years, I've been involved in many of those implementations, and I guess Supercloud is somewhat a prerequisite for it because it's data mesh and building applications using data mesh is about sharing data responsibly across boundaries. And those boundaries include boundaries, organizational boundaries cloud technology boundaries and trust boundaries. >> I want to bring that up because your venture, NextData which is new, just formed. Tell us about that. What wave is that riding? What specifically are you targeting? What's the pain point? >> Zhamak: Absolutely, yes. So next data is the result of, I suppose, the pains that I suffered from implementing a database for many of the organizations. Basically, a lot of organizations that I've worked with, they want decentralized data. So they really embrace this idea of decentralized ownership of the data, but yet they want interconnectivity through standard APIs, yet they want discoverability and governance. So they want to have policies implemented, they want to govern that data, they want to be able to discover that data and yet they want to decentralize it. And we do that with a developer experience that is easy and native to a generalist developer. So we try to find, I guess, the common denominator that solves those problems and enables that developer experience for data sharing. >> John: Since you just announced the news, what's been the reaction? >> Zhamak: I just announced the news right now, so what's the reaction? >> John: But people in the industry that know you, you did a lot of work in the area. What have been some of the feedback on the new venture in terms of the approach, the customers, problem? >> Yeah, so we've been in stealth modes, so we haven't publicly talked about it, but folks that have been close to us in fact have reached out. We already have implementations of our pilot platform with early customers, which is super exciting. And we're going to have multiple of those. Of course, we're a tiny, tiny company. We can have many of those where we are going to have multiple pilots, implementations of our platform in real world. We're real global large scale organizations that have real world problems. So we're not going to build our platform in vacuum. And that's what's happening right now. >> Zhamak: When I think about your role at ThoughtWorks, you had a very wide observation space with a number of clients helping them implement data mesh and other things as well prior to your data mesh initiative. But when I look at data mesh, at least the ones that I've seen, they're very narrow. I think of JPMC, I think of HelloFresh. They're generally obviously not surprising. They don't include the big vision of inclusivity across clouds across different data stores. But it seems like people are having to go through some gymnastics to get to, you know, the organizational reality of decentralizing data, and at least pushing data ownership to the line of business. How are you approaching or are you approaching, solving that problem? Are you taking a narrow slice? What can you tell us about Next Data? >> Zhamak: Sure, yeah, absolutely. Gymnastics, the cute word to describe what the organizations have to go through. And one of those problems is that, you know, the data, as you know, resides on different platforms. It's owned by different people, it's processed by pipelines that who owns them. So there's this very disparate and disconnected set of technologies that were very useful for when we thought about data and processing as a centralized problem. But when you think about data as a decentralized problem, the cost of integration of these technologies in a cohesive developer experience is what's missing. And we want to focus on that cohesive end-to-end developer experience to share data responsibly in this autonomous units, we call them data products, I guess in data mesh, right? That constitutes computation, that governs that data policies, discoverability. So I guess, I heard this expression in the last talks that you can have your cake and eat it too. So we want people have their cakes, which is, you know, data in different places, decentralization and eat it too, which is interconnected access to it. So we start with standardizing and codifying this idea of a data product container that encapsulates data computation, APIs to get to it in a technology agnostic way, in an open way. And then, sit on top and use existing existing tech, you know, Snowflake, Databricks, whatever exists, you know, the millions of dollars of investments that companies have made, sit on top of those but create this cohesive, integrated experience where data product is a first class primitive. And that's really key here, that the language, and the modeling that we use is really native to data mesh is that I will make a data product, I'm sharing a data product, and that encapsulates on providing metadata about this. I'm providing computation that's constantly changing the data. I'm providing the API for that. So we're trying to kind of codify and create a new developer experience based on that. And developer, both from provider side and user side connected to peer-to-peer data sharing with data product as a primitive first class concept. >> Okay, so the idea would be developers would build applications leveraging those data products which are discoverable and governed. Now, today you see some companies, you know, take a snowflake for example. >> Zhamak: Yeah. >> Attempting to do that within their own little walled garden. They even, at one point, used the term, "Mesh." I dunno if they pull back on that. And then they sort of became aware of some of your work. But a lot of the things that they're doing within their little insulated environment, you know, support that, that, you know, governance, they're building out an ecosystem. What's different in your vision? >> Exactly. So we realize that, you know, and this is a reality, like you go to organizations, they have a snowflake and half of the organization happily operates on Snowflake. And on the other half, oh, we are on, you know, bare infrastructure on AWS, or we are on Databricks. This is the realities, you know, this Supercloud that's written up here. It's about working across boundaries of technology. So we try to embrace that. And even for our own technology with the way we're building it, we say, "Okay, nobody's going to use next data mesh operating system. People will have different platforms." So you have to build with openness in mind, and in case of Snowflake, I think, you know, they have I'm sure very happy customers as long as customers can be on Snowflake. But once you cross that boundary of platforms then that becomes a problem. And we try to keep that in mind in our solution. >> So, it's worth reviewing that basically, the concept of data mesh is that, whether you're a data lake or a data warehouse, an S3 bucket, an Oracle database as well, they should be inclusive inside of the data. >> We did a session with AWS on the startup showcase, data as code. And remember, I wrote a blog post in 2007 called, "Data's the new developer kit." Back then, they used to call 'em developer kits, if you remember. And that we said at that time, whoever can code data >> Zhamak: Yes. >> Will have a competitive advantage. >> Aren't there machines going to be doing that? Didn't we just hear that? >> Well we have, and you know, Hey Siri, hey Cube. Find me that best video for data mesh. There it is. I mean, this is the point, like what's happening is that, now, data has to be addressable >> Zhamak: Yes. >> For machines and for coding. >> Zhamak: Yes. >> Because as you need to call the data. So the question is, how do you manage the complexity of big things as promiscuous as possible, making it available as well as then governing it because it's a trade off. The more you make open >> Zhamak: Definitely. >> The better the machine learning. >> Zhamak: Yes. >> But yet, the governance issue, so this is the, you need an OS to handle this maybe. >> Yes, well, we call our mental model for our platform is an OS operating system. Operating systems, you know, have shown us how you can kind of abstract what's complex and take care of, you know, a lot of complexities, but yet provide an open and, you know, dynamic enough interface. So we think about it that way. We try to solve the problem of policies live with the data. An enforcement of the policies happens at the most granular level which is, in this concept, the data product. And that would happen whether you read, write, or access a data product. But we can never imagine what are these policies could be. So our thinking is, okay, we should have a open policy framework that can allow organizations write their own policy drivers, and policy definitions, and encode it and encapsulated in this data product container. But I'm not going to fool myself to say that, you know, that's going to solve the problem that you just described. I think we are in this, I don't know, if I look into my crystal ball, what I think might happen is that right now, the primitives that we work with to train machine-learning model are still bits and bites in data. They're fields, rows, columns, right? And that creates quite a large surface area, an attack area for, you know, for privacy of the data. So perhaps, one of the trends that we might see is this evolution of data APIs to become more and more computational aware to bring the compute to the data to reduce that surface area so you can really leave the control of the data to the sovereign owners of that data, right? So that data product. So I think the evolution of our data APIs perhaps will become more and more computational. So you describe what you want, and the data owner decides, you know, how to manage the- >> John: That's interesting, Dave, 'cause it's almost like we just talked about ChatGPT in the last segment with you, who's a machine learning, could really been around the industry. It's almost as if you're starting to see reason come into the data, reasoning. It's like you starting to see not just metadata, using the data to reason so that you don't have to expose the raw data. It's almost like a, I won't say curation layer, but an intelligence layer. >> Zhamak: Exactly. >> Can you share your vision on that 'cause that seems to be where the dots are connecting. >> Zhamak: Yes, this is perhaps further into the future because just from where we stand, we have to create still that bridge of familiarity between that future and present. So we are still in that bridge-making mode, however, by just the basic notion of saying, "I'm going to put an API in front of my data, and that API today might be as primitive as a level of indirection as in you tell me what you want, tell me who you are, let me go process that, all the policies and lineage, and insert all of this intelligence that need to happen. And then I will, today, I will still give you a file. But by just defining that API and standardizing it, now we have this amazing extension point that we can say, "Well, the next revision of this API, you not just tell me who you are, but you actually tell me what intelligence you're after. What's a logic that I need to go and now compute on your API?" And you can kind of evolve that, right? Now you have a point of evolution to this very futuristic, I guess, future where you just describe the question that you're asking from the chat. >> Well, this is the Supercloud, Dave. >> I have a question from a fan, I got to get it in. It's George Gilbert. And so, his question is, you're blowing away the way we synchronize data from operational systems to the data stack to applications. So the concern that he has, and he wants your feedback on this, "Is the data product app devs get exposed to more complexity with respect to moving data between data products or maybe it's attributes between data products, how do you respond to that? How do you see, is that a problem or is that something that is overstated, or do you have an answer for that?" >> Zhamak: Absolutely. So I think there's a sweet spot in getting data developers, data product developers closer to the app, but yet not burdening them with the complexity of the application and application logic, and yet reducing their cognitive load by localizing what they need to know about which is that domain where they're operating within. Because what's happening right now? what's happening right now is that data engineers, a ton of empathy for them for their high threshold of pain that they can, you know, deal with, they have been centralized, they've put into the data team, and they have been given this unbelievable task of make meaning out of data, put semantic over it, curates it, cleans it, and so on. So what we are saying is that get those folks embedded into the domain closer to the application developers, these are still separately moving units. Your app and your data products are independent but yet tightly closed with each other, tightly coupled with each other based on the context of the domain, so reduce cognitive load by localizing what they need to know about to the domain, get them closer to the application but yet have them them separate from app because app provides a very different service. Transactional data for my e-commerce transaction, data product provides a very different service, longitudinal data for the, you know, variety of this intelligent analysis that I can do on the data. But yet, it's all within the domain of e-commerce or sales or whatnot. >> So a lot of decoupling and coupling create that cohesiveness. >> Zhamak: Absolutely. >> Architecture. So I have to ask you, this is an interesting question 'cause it came up on theCUBE all last year. Back on the old server, data center days and cloud, SRE, Google coined the term, "Site Reliability Engineer" for someone to look over the hundreds of thousands of servers. We asked a question to data engineering community who have been suffering, by the way, agree. Is there an SRE-like role for data? Because in a way, data engineering, that platform engineer, they are like the SRE for data. In other words, managing the large scale to enable automation and cell service. What's your thoughts and reaction to that? >> Zhamak: Yes, exactly. So, maybe we go through that history of how SRE came to be. So we had the first DevOps movement which was, remove the wall between dev and ops and bring them together. So you have one cross-functional units of the organization that's responsible for, you build it you run it, right? So then there is no, I'm going to just shoot my application over the wall for somebody else to manage it. So we did that, and then we said, "Okay, as we decentralized and had this many microservices running around, we had to create a layer that abstracted a lot of the complexity around running now a lot or monitoring, observing and running a lot while giving autonomy to this cross-functional team." And that's where the SRE, a new generation of engineers came to exist. So I think if I just look- >> Hence Borg, hence Kubernetes. >> Hence, hence, exactly. Hence chaos engineering, hence embracing the complexity and messiness, right? And putting engineering discipline to embrace that and yet give a cohesive and high integrity experience of those systems. So I think, if we look at that evolution, perhaps something like that is happening by bringing data and apps closer and make them these domain-oriented data product teams or domain oriented cross-functional teams, full stop, and still have a very advanced maybe at the platform infrastructure level kind of operational team that they're not busy doing two jobs which is taking care of domains and the infrastructure, but they're building infrastructure that is embracing that complexity, interconnectivity of this data process. >> John: So you see similarities. >> Absolutely, but I feel like we're probably in a more early days of that movement. >> So it's a data DevOps kind of thing happening where scales happening. It's good things are happening yet. Eh, a little bit fast and loose with some complexities to clean up. >> Yes, yes. This is a different restructure. As you said we, you know, the job of this industry as a whole on architects is decompose, recompose, decompose, recomposing a new way, and now we're like decomposing centralized team, recomposing them as domains and- >> John: So is data mesh the killer app for Supercloud? >> You had to do this for me. >> Dave: Sorry, I couldn't- (John and Dave laughing) >> Zhamak: What do you want me to say, Dave? >> John: Yes. >> Zhamak: Yes of course. >> I mean Supercloud, I think it's, really the terminology's Supercloud, Opencloud. But I think, in spirits of it, this embracing of diversity and giving autonomy for people to make decisions for what's right for them and not yet lock them in. I think just embracing that is baked into how data mesh assume the world would work. >> John: Well thank you so much for coming on Supercloud too, really appreciate it. Data has driven this conversation. Your success of data mesh has really opened up the conversation and exposed the slow moving data industry. >> Dave: Been a great catalyst. (John laughs) >> John: That's now going well. We can move faster, so thanks for coming on. >> Thank you for hosting me. It was wonderful. >> Okay, Supercloud 2 live here in Palo Alto. Our stage performance, I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. We're back with more after this short break, Stay with us all day for Supercloud 2. (gentle bright music)

>>Set restaurants. And who says TEUs had got a little ass more skin in the game for us, in charge of his destiny? You guys are excited. Robert Worship is Chief Alumni. >>My name is Dave Ante, and I'm a long time industry analyst. So when you're as old as I am, you've seen a lot of transitions. Everybody talks about industry cycles and waves. I've seen many, many waves. Met a lot of industry executives and of a little bit of a, an industry historian. When you interview many thousands of people, probably five or 6,000 people as I have over the last half of a decade, you get to interact with a lot of people's knowledge and you begin to develop patterns. And so that's sort of what I bring is, is an ability to catalyze the conversation and, you know, share that knowledge with others in the community. Our philosophy is everybody's expert at something. Everybody's passionate about something and has real deep knowledge about that's something well, we wanna focus in on that area and extract that knowledge and share it with our communities. This is Dave Ante. Thanks for watching the Cube. >>Hello everyone and welcome back to the Cube where we are streaming live this week from CubeCon. I am Savannah Peterson and I am joined by an absolutely stellar lineup of cube brilliance this afternoon. To my left, a familiar face, Lisa Martin. Lisa, how you feeling? End of day two. >>Excellent. It was so much fun today. The buzz started yesterday, the momentum, the swell, and we only heard even more greatness today. >>Yeah, yeah, abs, absolutely. You know, I, I sometimes think we've hit an energy cliff, but it feels like the energy is just >>Continuous. Well, I think we're gonna, we're gonna slide right into tomorrow. >>Yeah, me too. I love it. And we've got two fantastic analysts with us today, Sarge and Keith. Thank you both for joining us. We feel so lucky today. >>Great being back on. >>Thanks for having us. Yeah, Yeah. It's nice to have you back on the show. We were, had you yesterday, but I miss hosting with you. It's been a while. >>It has been a while. We haven't done anything in since, Since pre >>Pandemic, right? Yeah, I think you're >>Right. Four times there >>Be four times back in the day. >>We, I always enjoy whole thing, Lisa, cuz she's so well prepared. I don't have to do any research when I come >>Home. >>Lisa will bring up some, Oh, sorry. Jeep, I see that in 2008 you won this award for Yeah. Being just excellent and I, I'm like, Oh >>Yeah. All right Keith. So, >>So did you do his analysis? >>Yeah, it's all done. Yeah. Great. He only part, he's not sitting next to me too. We can't see it, so it's gonna be like a magic crystal bell. Right. So a lot of people here. You got some stats in terms of the attendees compared >>To last year? Yeah, Priyanka told us we were double last year up to 8,000. We also got the scoop earlier that 2023 is gonna be in Chicago, which is very exciting. >>Oh, that is, is nice. Yeah, >>We got to break that here. >>Excellent. Keith, talk to us about what some of the things are that you've seen the last couple of days. The momentum. What's the vibe? I saw your tweet about the top three things you were being asked. Kubernetes was not one of them. >>Kubernetes were, was not one of 'em. This conference is starting to, it, it still feels very different than a vendor conference. The keynote is kind of, you know, kind of all over the place talking about projects, but the hallway track has been, you know, I've, this is maybe my fifth or sixth CU con in person. And the hallway track is different. It's less about projects and more about how, how do we adjust to the enterprise? How do we Yes. Actually do enterprise things. And it has been amazing watching this community grow. I'm gonna say grow up and mature. Yes. You know, you know, they're not wearing ties yet, but they are definitely understanding kind of the, the friction of implementing new technology in, in an enterprise. >>Yeah. So ge what's your, what's been your take, We were with you yesterday. What's been the take today to take aways? >>NOMA has changed since yesterday, but a few things I think I, I missed talking about that yesterday were that, first of all, let's just talk about Amazon. Amazon earnings came out, it spooked the market and I think it's relevant in this context as well, because they're number one cloud provider. Yeah. And all, I mean, almost all of these technologies on the back of us here, they are related to cloud, right? So it will have some impact on these. Like we have to analyze that. Like will it make the open source go faster or slower in, in lieu of the fact that the, the cloud growth is slowing. Right? So that's, that's one thing that's put that's put that aside. I've been thinking about the, the future of Kubernetes. What is the future of Kubernetes? And in that context, I was thinking like, you know, I think in, when I put a pointer there, I think in tangents, like, what else is around this thing? So I think CN CNCF has been writing the success of Kubernetes. They are, that was their number one flagship project, if you will. And it was mature enough to stand on its own. It it was Google, it's Google's Borg dub da Kubernetes. It's a genericized version of that. Right? So folks who do tech deep down, they know that, Right. So I think it's easier to stand with a solid, you know, project. But when the newer projects come in, then your medal will get tested at cncf. Right. >>And cncf, I mean they've got over 140 projects Yeah. Right now. So there's definitely much beyond >>Kubernetes. Yeah. So they, I have numbers there. 18 graduated, right, 37 in incubation and then 81 in Sandbox stage. They have three stages, right. So it's, they have a lot to chew on and the more they take on, the less, you know, quality you get goes into it. Who is, who's putting the money behind it? Which vendors are sponsoring like cncf, like how they're getting funded up. I think it >>Something I pay attention to as well. Yeah. Yeah. Lisa, I know you've got >>Some insight. Those are the things I was thinking about today. >>I gotta ask you, what's your take on what Keith said? Are you also seeing the maturation of the enterprise here at at coupon? >>Yes, I am actually, when you say enterprise versus what's the other side? Startups, right? Yeah. So startups start using open source a lot more earlier or lot more than enterprises. The enterprise is what they need. Number one thing is the, for their production workloads, they want a vendor sporting them. I said that yesterday as well, right? So it depend depending on the size of the enterprise. If you're a big shop, definitely if you have one of the 500 or Fortune five hundreds and your tech savvy shop, then you can absorb the open source directly coming from the open source sort of universe right. Coming to you. But if you are the second tier of enterprise, you want to go to a provider which is managed service provider, or it can be cloud service provider in this case. Yep. Most of the cloud service providers have multiple versions of Kubernetes, for example. >>I'm not talking about Kubernetes only, but like, but that is one example, right? So at Amazon you can get five different flavors of Kubernetes, right? Fully manage, have, manage all kind of stuff. So people don't have bandwidth to manage that stuff locally. You have to patch it, you have to roll in the new, you know, updates and all that stuff. Like, it's a lot of work for many. So CNCF actually is formed for that reason. Like the, the charter is to bring the quality to open source. Like in other companies they have the release process and they, the stringent guidelines and QA and all that stuff. So is is something ready for production? That's the question when it comes to any software, right? So they do that kind of work and, and, and they have these buckets defined at high level, but it needs more >>Work. Yeah. So one of the things that, you know, kind of stood out to me, I have good friend in the community, Alex Ellis, who does open Fast. It's a serverless platform, great platform. Two years ago or in 2019, there was a serverless day date. And in serverless day you had K Native, you had Open Pass, you had Ws, which is supported by IBM completely, not CNCF platforms. K native came into the CNCF full when Google donated the project a few months ago or a couple of years ago, now all of a sudden there's a K native day. Yes. Not a serverless day, it's a K native day. And I asked the, the CNCF event folks like, what happened to Serverless Day? I missed having open at serverless day. And you know, they, they came out and said, you know what, K native got big enough. >>They came in and I think Red Hat and Google wanted to sponsor a K native day. So serverless day went away. So I think what what I'm interested in and over the next couple of years is, is they're gonna be pushback from the C against the cncf. Is the CNCF now too big? Is it now the gatekeeper for do I have to be one of those 147 projects, right? In order enough to get my project noticed the open, fast, great project. I don't think Al Alex has any desire to have his project hosted by cncf, but it probably deserves, you know, shoulder left recognition with that. So I'm pushing to happen to say, okay, if this is open community, this is open source. If CNC is the place to have the cloud native conversation, what about the projects that's not cncf? Like how do we have that conversation when we don't have the power of a Google right. Or a, or a Lenox, et cetera, or a Lenox Foundation. So GE what, >>What are your thoughts on that? Is, is CNC too big? >>I don't think it's too big. I think it's too small to handle the, what we are doing in open source, right? So it's a bottle. It can become a bottleneck. Okay. I think too big in a way that yeah, it has, it has, it has power from that point of view. It has that cloud, if you will. The people listen to it. If it's CNCF project or this must be good, it's like in, in incubators. Like if you are y white Combinator, you know, company, it must be good. You know, I mean, may not be >>True, but, >>Oh, I think there's a bold assumption there though. I mean, I think everyone's just trying to do the best they can. And when we're evaluating projects, a very different origin and background, it's incredibly hard. Very c and staff is a staff of 30 people. They've got 180,000 people that are contributing to these projects and a thousand maintainers that they're trying to uphold. I think the challenge is actually really great. And to me, I actually look at events as an illustration of, you know, what's the culture and the health of an organization. If I were to evaluate CNCF based on that, I'd say we're very healthy right now. I would say that we're in a good spot. There's a lot of momentum. >>Yeah. I, I think CNCF is very healthy. I'm, I'm appreciative for it being here. I love coupon. It's becoming the, the facto conference to have this conversation has >>A totally >>Different vibe to other, It's a totally different vibe. Yeah. There needs to be a conduit and truth be told, enterprise buyers, to subject's point, this is something that we do absolutely agree on, on enterprise buyers. We want someone to pick winners and losers. We do, we, we don't want a box of Lego dumped on our, the middle of our table. We want somebody to have sorted that out. So while there may be five or six different service mesh solutions, at least the cncf, I can go there and say, Oh, I'll pick between the three or four that are most popular. And it, it's a place to curate. But I think with that curation comes the other side of it. Of how do we, how, you know, without the big corporate sponsor, how do I get my project pushed up? Right? Elevated. Elevated, Yep. And, and put onto the show floor. You know, another way that projects get noticed is that startups will adopt them, Push them. They may not even be, I don't, my CNCF project may not, my product may not even be based on the CNCF product. But the new stack has a booth, Ford has a booth. Nothing to do with a individual prod up, but promoting open source. What happens when you're not sponsored? >>I gotta ask you guys, what do you disagree on? >>Oh, so what, what do we disagree on? So I'm of the mindset, I can, I can say this, I I believe hybrid infrastructure is the future of it. Bar none. If I built my infrastructure, if I built my application in the cloud 10 years ago and I'm still building net new applications, I have stuff that I built 10 years ago that looks a lot like on-prem, what do I do with it? I can't modernize it cuz I don't have the developers to do it. I need to stick that somewhere. And where I'm going to stick that at is probably a hybrid infrastructure. So colo, I'm not gonna go back to the data center, but I'm, I'm gonna look, pick up something that looks very much like the data center and I'm saying embrace that it's the future. And if you're Boeing and you have, and Boeing is a member, cncf, that's a whole nother topic. If you have as 400 s, hpu X, et cetera, stick that stuff. Colo, build new stuff, but, and, and continue to support OpenStack, et cetera, et cetera. Because that's the future. Hybrid is the future. >>And sub g agree, disagree. >>I okay. Hybrid. Nobody can deny that the hybrid is the reality, not the future. It's a reality right now. It's, it's a necessity right now you can't do without it. Right. And okay, hybrid is very relative term. You can be like 10% here, 90% still hybrid, right? So the data center is shrinking and it will keep shrinking. Right? And >>So if by whole is the data center shrinking? >>This is where >>Quick one quick getting guys for it. How is growing by a clip? Yeah, but there's no data supporting. David Lym just came out for a report I think last year that showed that the data center is holding steady, holding steady, not growing, but not shrinking. >>Who sponsored that study? Wait, hold on. So the, that's a question, right? So more than 1 million data centers have been closed. I have, I can dig that through number through somebody like some organizations we published that maybe they're cloud, you know, people only. So the, when you get these kind of statements like it, it can be very skewed statements, right. But if you have seen the, the scene out there, which you have, I know, but I have also seen a lot of data centers walk the floor of, you know, a hundred thousand servers in a data center. I cannot imagine us consuming the infrastructure the way we were going into the future of co Okay. With, with one caveat actually. I am not big fan of like broad strokes. Like make a blanket statement. Oh no, data center's dead. Or if you are, >>That's how you get those esty headlines now. Yeah, I know. >>I'm all about to >>Put a stake in the ground. >>Actually. The, I think that you get more intelligence from the new end, right? A small little details if you will. If you're golden gold manak or Bank of America, you have so many data centers and you will still have data centers because performance matters to you, right? Your late latency matters for applications. But if you are even a Fortune 500 company on the lower end and or a healthcare vertical, right? That your situation is different. If you are a high, you know, growth startup, your situation is different, right? You will be a hundred percent cloud. So cloud gives you velocity, the, the, the pace of change, the pace of experimentation that actually you are buying innovation through cloud. It's proxy for innovation. And that's how I see it. But if you have, if you're stuck with older applications, I totally understand. >>Yeah. So the >>We need that OnPrem. Yeah, >>Well I think the, the bring your fuel sober, what we agree is that cloud is the place where innovation happens. Okay? At some point innovation becomes legacy debt and you have thus hybrid, you are not going to keep your old applications up to date forever. The, the, the math just doesn't add up. And where I differ in opinion is that not everyone needs innovation to keep moving. They need innovation for a period of time and then they need steady state. So Sergeant, we >>Argue about this. I have a, I >>Love this debate though. I say it's efficiency and stability also plays an important role. I see exactly what you're talking about. No, it's >>Great. I have a counter to that. Let me tell you >>Why. Let's >>Hear it. Because if you look at the storage only, right? Just storage. Just take storage computer network for, for a minute. There three cost reps in, in infrastructure, right? So storage earlier, early on there was one tier of storage. You say pay the same price, then now there are like five storage tiers, right? What I'm trying to say is the market sets the price, the market will tell you where this whole thing will go, but I know their margins are high in cloud, 20 plus percent and margin will shrink as, as we go forward. That means the, the cloud will become cheaper relative to on-prem. It, it, in some cases it's already cheaper. But even if it's a stable workload, even in that case, we will have a lower tier of service. I mean, you, you can't argue with me that the cloud versus your data center, they are on the same tier of services. Like cloud is a better, you know, product than your data center. Hands off. >>I love it. We, we are gonna relish in the debates between the two of you. Mic drops. The energy is great. I love it. Perspective. It's not like any of us can quite see through the crystal ball that we have very informed opinions, which is super exciting. Yeah. Lisa, any last thoughts today? >>Just love, I love the debate as well. That, and that's, that's part of what being in this community is all about. So sharing about, sharing opinions, expressing opinions. That's how it grows. That's how, that's how we innovate. Yeah. Obviously we need the cloud, but that's how we innovate. That's how we grow. Yeah. And we've seen that demonstrated the last couple days and I and your, your takes here on the Cuban on Twitter. Brilliant. >>Thank you. I absolutely love it. I'm gonna close this out with a really important analysis on the swag of the show. Yes. And if you know, yesterday we were looking at what is the weirdest swag or most unique swag We had that bucket hat that took the grand prize. Today we're gonna focus on something that's actually quite cool. A lot of the vendors here have really dedicated their swag to being local to Detroit. Very specific in their sourcing. Sonotype here has COOs. They're beautiful. You can't quite feel this flannel, but it's very legit hand sound here in Michigan. I can't say that I've been to too many conferences, if any, where there was this kind of commitment to localizing and sourcing swag from around the corner. We also see this with the Intel booth. They've got screen printers out here doing custom hoodies on spot. >>Oh fun. They're even like appropriately sized. They had local artists do these designs and if you're like me and you care about what's on your wrist, you're familiar with Shinola. This is one of my favorite swags that's available. There is a contest. Oh going on. Hello here. Yeah, so if you are Atan, make sure that you go and check this out. The we, I talked about this on the show. We've had the founder on the show or the CEO and yeah, I mean Shine is just full of class as since we are in Detroit as well. One of the fun themes is cars. >>Yes. >>And Storm Forge, who are also on the show, is actually giving away an Aston Martin, which is very exciting. Not exactly manufactured in Detroit. However, still very cool on the car front and >>The double oh seven version named the best I >>Know in the sixties. It's love it. It's very cool. Two quick last things. We talk about it a lot on the show. Every company now wants to be a software company. Yep. On that vein, and keeping up with my hat theme, the Home Depot is here because they want everybody to know that they in fact are a technology company, which is very cool. They have over 500,000 employees. You can imagine there's a lot of technology that has to go into keeping Napa. Absolutely. Yep. Wild to think about. And then last, but not at least very quick, rapid fire, best t-shirt contest. If you've ever ran to one of these events, there are a ton of T-shirts out there. I rate them on two things. Wittiest line and softness. If you combine the two, you'll really be our grand champion for the year. I'm just gonna hold these up and set them down for your laughs. Not afraid to commit, which is pretty great. This is another one designed by locals here. Detroit Code City. Oh, love it. This one made me chuckle the most. Kiss my cash. >>Oh, that's >>Good. These are also really nice and soft, which is fantastic. Also high on the softness category is this Op Sarah one. I also like their bird logo. These guys, there's just, you know, just real nice touch. So unfortunately, if you have the fumble, you're not here with us, live in Detroit. At least you're gonna get taste of the swag. I taste of the stories and some smiles hear from those of us on the cube. Thank you both so much for being here with us. Lisa, thanks for another fabulous day. Got it, girl. My name's Savannah Peterson. Thank you for joining us from Detroit. We're the cube and we can't wait to see you tomorrow.

>>Good evening, brilliant humans. My name is Savannah Peterson and very delighted to be streaming to you. Live from the Cube Studios here in Motor City, Michigan. I've got John Furrier on my left. John, this is our last interview of the day. Energy just seems to keep oozing. How >>You doing? Take two, Three days of coverage, the queue love segments. This one's great cuz we have a practitioner who's implementing all the hard core talks to be awesome. Can't wait to get into it. >>Yeah, I'm very excited for this one. If it's not very clear, we are a community focused community is a huge theme here at the show at Cape Con. And our next guests are actually a provider and a customer. Turning it over to you. Lisa and Jake, welcome to the show. >>Thank you so much for having us. >>It's great to be here. It is our pleasure. Lisa, you're with Cockroach. Just in case the audience isn't familiar, give us a quick little sound bite. >>We're a distributed sequel database. Highly scalable, reliable. The database you can't kill, right? We will survive the apocalypse. So very resilient. Our customers, mostly retail, FinTech game meet online gambling. They, they, they need that resiliency, they need that scalability. So the indestructible database is the elevator pitch >>And the success has been very well documented. Valuation obviously is a scorp guard, but huge customers. We were at the Escape 19. Just for the record, the first ever multi-cloud conference hasn't come back baby. Love it. It'll come back soon. >>Yeah, well we did a similar version of it just a month ago and I was, that was before Cockroach. I was a different company there talking a lot about multi-cloud. So, but I'm, I've been a car a couple of years now and I run community, I run developer relations. I'm still also a CNCF ambassador, so I lead community as well. I still run a really large user group in the San Francisco Bay area. So we've just >>Been in >>Community, take through the use case. Jake's story set us up. >>Well I would like Jake to take him through the use case and Cockroach is a part of it, but what they've built is amazing. And also Jake's history is amazing. So you can start Jake, >>Wherever you take >>Your Yeah, sure. I'm Jake, I'm CEO and co-founder of Offset. Oted is the commercial entity behind Spice Dvy and Spice Dvy is a permission service. Cool. So a permission service is something that lets developers and let's platform teams really unlock the full potential of their applications. So a lot of people get stuck on My R back isn't flexible enough. How do I do these fine grain things? How do I do these complex sharing workflows that my product manager thinks is so important? And so our service enables those platform teams and developers to do those kinds of things. >>What's your, what's your infrastructure? What's your setup look like? What, how are you guys looking like on the back end? >>Sure. Yeah. So we're obviously built on top of Kubernetes as well. One of the reasons that we're here. So we use Kubernetes, we use Kubernetes operators to orchestrate everything. And then we use, use Cockroach TV as our production data store, our production backend data store. >>So I'm curious, cause I love when these little matchmakers come together. You said you've now been presenting on a little bit of a road show, which is very exciting. Lisa, how are you and the team surfacing stories like Jakes, >>Well, I mean any, any place we can obviously all the social medias, all the blogs, How >>Are you finding it though? >>How, how did you Oh, like from our customers? Yeah, we have an open source version so people start to use us a long time before we even sometimes know about them. And then they'll come to us and they'll be like, I love Cockroach, and like, tell me about it. Like, tell me what you build and if it's interesting, you know, we'll we'll try to give it some light. And it's always interesting to me what people do with it because it's an interesting technology. I like what they've done with it. I mean the, the fact that it's globally distributed, right? That was like a really important thing to you. Totally. >>Yeah. We're also long term fans of Cockroach, so we actually all work together out of Workbench, which was a co-working space and investor in New York City. So yeah, we go way back. We knew the founders. I, I'm constantly saying like if I could have invested early in cockroach, that would've been the easiest check I could have ever signed. >>Yeah, that's awesome. And then we've been following that too and you guys are now using them, but folks that are out there looking to have the, the same challenges, what are the big challenges on selecting the database? I mean, as you know, the history of Cockroach and you're originating the story, folks out there might not know and they're also gonna choose a database. What's the, what's the big challenge that they can solve that that kind of comes together? What, what would you describe that? >>Sure. So we're, as I said, we're a permission service and per the data that you store in a permission service is incredibly sensitive. You need it to be around, right? You need it to be available. If the permission service goes down, almost everything else goes down because it's all calling into the permission service. Is this user allowed to do this? Are they allowed to do that? And if we can't answer those questions, then our customer is down, right? So when we're looking at a database, we're looking for reliability, we're looking for durability, disaster recovery, and then permission services are one of the only services that you usually don't shard geographically. So if you look at like AWS's iam, that's a global service, even though the individual things that they run are actually sharded by region. So we also needed a globally distributed database with all of those other properties. So that's what led us >>To, this is a huge topic. So man, we've been talking about all week the cloud is essentially distributed database at this point and it's distributed system. So distributed database is a hot topic, totally not really well reported. A lot of people talking about it, but how would you describe this distributed trend that's going on? What are the key reasons that they're driving it? What's making this more important than ever in your mind, in your opinion? >>I mean, for our use case, it was just a hard requirement, right? We had to be able to have this global service. But I think just for general use cases, a distributed database, distributed database has that like shared nothing architecture that allows you to kind of keep it running and horizontally scale it. And as your requirements and as your applications needs change, you can just keep adding on capacity and keep adding on reliability and availability. >>I'd love to get both of your opinion. You've been talking about the, the, the, the phases of customers, the advanced got Kubernetes going crazy distributed, super alpha geek. Then you got the, the people who are building now, then you got the lagers who are coming online. Where do you guys see the market now in terms of, I know the Alphas are all building all the great stuff and you guys had great success with all the top logos and they're all doing hardcore stuff. As the mainstream enterprise comes in, where's their psychology, what's on their mind? What's, you share any insight into your perspective on that? Because we're seeing a lot more of it folks becoming like real cloud players. >>Yeah, I feel like in mainstream enterprise hasn't been lagging as much as people think. You know, certainly there's been pockets in big enterprises that have been looking at this and as distributed sequel, it gives you that scalability that it's absolutely essential for big enterprises. But also it gives you the, the multi-region, you know, the, you have to be globally distributed. And for us, for enterprises, you know, you need your data near where the users are. I know this is hugely important to you as well. So you have to be able to have a multi-region functionality and that's one thing that distributed SQL lets you build and that what we built into our product. And I know that's one of the things you like too. >>Yeah, well we're a brand new product. I mean we only founded the company two years ago, but we're actually getting inbound interest from big enterprises because we solve the kinds of challenges that they have and whether, I mean, most of them already do have a cockroach footprint, but whether they did or didn't, once they need to bring in our product, they're going to be adopting cockroach transitively anyway. >>So, So you're built on top of Cockroach, right? And Spice dv, is that open source or? >>It >>Is, yep. Okay. And explain the role of open source and your business model. Can you take a minute to talk about the relevance of that? >>Yeah, open source is key. My background is, before this I was at Red Hat. Before that we were at CoreOS, so CoreOS acquisition and before that, >>One of the best acquisitions that ever happened for the value. That was a great, great team. Yeah, >>We, we, we had fun and before that we built Qua. So my co-founders and I, we built Quay, which is a, a first private docker registry. So CoreOS and, and all of those things are all open source or deeply open source. So it's just in our dna. We also see it as part of our go-to market motion. So if you are a database, a lot of people won't even consider what you're doing without being open source. Cuz they say, I don't want to take a, I don't want to, I don't want to end up in an Oracle situation >>Again. Yeah, Oracle meaning they go, you get you locked in, get you in a headlock, Increase prices. >>Yeah. Oh yeah, >>Can, can >>I got triggered. >>You need to talk about your PTSD there >>Or what. >>I mean we have 20,000 stars on GitHub because we've been open and transparent from the beginning. >>Yeah. And it >>Well, and both of your projects were started based on Google Papers, >>Right? >>That is true. Yep. And that's actually, so we're based off of the Google Zans of our paper. And as you know, Cockroach is based off of the Google Span paper and in the the Zanzibar paper, they have this globally distributed database that they're built on top of. And so when I said we're gonna go and we're gonna make a company around the Zabar paper, people would go, Well, what are you gonna do for Span? And I was like, Easy cockroach, they've got us covered. >>Yeah, I know the guys and my friends. Yeah. So the question is why didn't you get into the first round of Cockroach? She said don't answer that. >>The question he did answer though was one of those age old arguments in our community about pronunciation. We used to argue about Quay, I always called it Key of course. And the co-founder obviously knows how it's pronounced, you know, it's the et cd argument, it's the co cuddl versus the control versus coo, CTL Quay from the co-founder. That is end of argument. You heard it here first >>And we're keeping it going with Osted. So awesome. A lot of people will say Zeed or, you know, so we, we just like to have a little ambiguity >>In the, you gotta have some semantic arguments, arm wrestling here. I mean, it keeps, it keeps everyone entertained, especially on the over the weekend. What's, what's next? You got obviously Kubernetes in there. Can you explain the relationship between Kubernetes, how you're handling Spice dv? What, what does the Kubernetes piece fit in and where, where is that going to be going? >>Yeah, great question. Our flagship product right now is a dedicated, and in a dedicated, what we're doing is we're spinning up a single tenant Kubernetes cluster. We're installing all of our operator suite, and then we're installing the application and running it in a single tenant fashion for our customers in the same region, in the same data center where they're running their applications to minimize latency. Because of this, as an authorization service, latency gets passed on directly to the end user. So everybody's trying to squeeze the latency down as far as they can. And our strategy is to just run these single tenant stacks for people with the minimal latency that we can and give them a VPC dedicated link very similar to what Cockroach does in their dedicated >>Product. And the distributed architecture makes that possible because it's lighter way, it's not as heavy. Is that one of the reasons? >>Yep. And Kubernetes really gives us sort of like a, a level playing field where we can say, we're going going to take the provider, the cloud providers Kubernetes offering, normalize it, lay down our operators, and then use that as the base for delivering >>Our application. You know, Jake, you made me think of something I wanted to bring up with other guests, but now since you're here, you're an expert, I wanna bring that up, but talk about Super Cloud. We, we coined that term, but it's kind of multi-cloud, is that having workloads on multiple clouds is hard. I mean there are, they are, there are workloads on, on clouds, but the complexity of one clouds, let's take aws, they got availability zones, they got regions, you got now data issues in each one being global, not that easy on one cloud, nevermind all clouds. Can you share your thoughts on how you see that progression? Because when you start getting, as its distributed database, a lot of good things might come up that could fit into solving the complexity of global workloads. Could you share your thoughts on or scoping that problem space of, of geography? Yeah, because you mentioned latency, like that's huge. What are some of the other challenges that other people have with mobile? >>Yeah, absolutely. When you have a service like ours where the data is small, but very critical, you can get a vendor like Cockroach to step in and to fill that gap and to give you that globally distributed database that you can call into and retrieve the data. I think the trickier issues come up when you have larger data, you have huge binary blobs. So back when we were doing Quay, we wanted to be a global service as well, but we had, you know, terabytes, petabytes of data that we were like, how do we get this replicated everywhere and not go broke? Yeah. So I think those are kind of the interesting issues moving forward is what do you do with like those huge data lakes, the huge amount of data, but for the, the smaller bits, like the things that we can keep in a relational database. Yeah, we're, we're happy that that's quickly becoming a solved >>Problem. And by the way, that that data problem also is compounded when the architecture goes to the edge. >>Totally. >>I mean this is a big issue. >>Exactly. Yeah. Edge is something that we're thinking a lot about too. Yeah, we're lucky that right now the applications that are consuming us are in a data center already. But as they start to move to the edge, we're going to have to move to the edge with them. And it's a story that we're gonna have to figure out. >>All right, so you're a customer cockroach, what's the testimonial if I put you on the spot, say, hey, what's it like working with these guys? You know, what, what's the, what's the, you know, the founders, so you know, you give a good description, little biased, but we'll, we'll we'll hold you on it. >>Yeah. Working with Cockroach has been great. We've had a couple things that we've run into along the way and we've gotten great support from our account managers. They've brought in the right technical expertise when we need it. Cuz what we're doing with Cockroach is not you, you couldn't do it on Postgres, right? So it's not just a simple rip and replace for us, we're using all of the features of Cockroach, right? We're doing as of system time queries, we're doing global replication. We're, you know, we're, we're consuming it all. And so we do need help from them sometimes and they've been great. Yeah. >>And that's natural as they grow their service. I mean the world's changing. >>Well I think one of the important points that you mentioned with multi-cloud, we want you to have the choice. You know, you can run it in in clouds, you can run it hybrid, you can run it OnPrem, you can do whatever you want and it's just, it's one application that you can run in these different data centers. And so really it's up to you how do you want to build your infrastructure? >>And one of the things we've been talking about, the super cloud concept that we've been issue getting a lot of contrary, but, but people are leaning into it is that it's the refactoring and taking advantage of the services. Like what you mentioned about cockroach. People are doing that now on cloud going the lift and shift market kind of had it time now it's like hey, I can start taking advantage of these higher level services or capability of someone else's stack and refactoring it. So I think that's a dynamic that I'm seeing a lot more of. And it sounds like it's working out great in this situation. >>I just came from a talk and I asked them, you know, what don't you wanna put in the cloud and what don't you wanna run in Kubernetes or on containers and good Yeah. And the customers that I was on stage with, one of the guys made a joke and he said I would put my dog in a container room. I could, he was like in the category, which is his right, which he is in the category of like, I'll put everything in containers and these are, you know, including like mis critical apps, heritage apps, since they don't wanna see legacy anymore. Heritage apps, these are huge enterprises and they wanna put everything in the cloud. Everything >>You so want your dog that gets stuck on the airplane when it's on the tarmac. >>Oh >>God, that's, she was the, don't take that analogy. Literally don't think about that. Well that's, >>That's let's not containerize. >>There's always supply chain concern. >>It. So I mean going macro and especially given where we are cncf, it's all about open source. Do y'all think that open source builds a better future? >>Yeah and a better past. I mean this is, so much of this software is founded on open source. I, we wouldn't be here really. I've been in open source community for many, many years so I wouldn't say I'm biased. I would say this is how we build software. I came from like in a high school we're all like, oh let's build a really cool application. Oh you know what? I built this cuz I needed it, but maybe somebody else needs it too. And you put it out there and that is the ethos of Silicon Valley, right? That's where we grew up. So I've always had that mindset, you know, and social coding and why I have three people, right? Working on the same thing when one person you could share it's so inefficient. All of that. Yeah. So I think it's great that people work on what they're really good at. You know, we all, now you need some standardization, you need some kind of control around this whole thing. Sometimes some foundations to, you know, herd the cats. Yeah. But it's, it's great. Which is why I'm a c CF ambassador and I spend a lot of time, you know, in my free time talking about open source. Yeah, yeah. >>It's clear how passionate you are about it. Jake, >>This is my second company that we founded now and I don't think either of them could have existed without the base of open source, right? Like when you look at I have this cool idea for an app or a company and I want to go try it out, the last thing I want to do is go and negotiate with a vendor to get like the core data component. Yeah. To even be able to get to the >>Prototypes. NK too, by the way. Yeah. >>Hey >>Nk >>Or hire, you know, a bunch of PhDs to go and build that core component for me. So yeah, I mean nobody can argue that >>It truly is, I gotta say a best time if you're a developer right now, it's awesome to be a developer right now. It's only gonna get better. As we were riff from the last session about productivity, we believe that if you follow the digital transformation to its conclusion, developers and it aren't a department serving the business, they are the business. And that means they're running the show, which means that now their entire workflow is gonna change. It's gonna be have to be leveraging services partnering. So yeah, open source just fills that. So the more code coming up, it's just no doubt in our mind that that's go, that's happening and will accelerate. So yeah, >>You know, no one company is gonna be able to compete with a community. 50,000 users contributing versus you riding it yourself in your garage with >>Your dogs. Well it's people driven too. It's humans not container. It's humans working together. And here you'll see, I won't say horse training, that's a bad term, but like as projects start to get traction, hey, why don't we come together as, as the world starts to settle and the projects have traction, you start to see visibility into use cases, functionality. Some projects might not be, they have to kind of see more kind >>Of, not every feature is gonna be development. Oh. So I mean, you know, this is why you connect with truly brilliant people who can architect and distribute sequel database. Like who thought of that? It's amazing. It's as, as our friend >>You say, Well let me ask you a question before we wrap up, both by time, what is the secret of Kubernetes success? What made Kubernetes specifically successful? Was it timing? Was it the, the unambitious nature of it, the unification of it? Was it, what was the reason why is Kubernetes successful, right? And why nothing else? >>Well, you know what I'm gonna say? So I'm gonna let Dave >>First don't Jake, you go first. >>Oh boy. If we look at what was happening when Kubernetes first came out, it was, Mesosphere was kind of like the, the big player in the space. I think Kubernetes really, it had the backing from the right companies. It had the, you know, it had the credibility, it was sort of loosely based on Borg, but with the story of like, we've fixed everything that was broken in Borg. Yeah. And it's better now. Yeah. So I think it was just kind and, and obviously people were looking for a solution to this problem as they were going through their containerization journey. And I, yeah, I think it was just right >>Place, the timing consensus of hey, if we just let this happen, something good might come together for everybody. That's the way I felt. I >>Think it was right place, right time, right solution. And then it just kind of exploded when we were at Cores. Alex Povi, our ceo, he heard about Kubernetes and he was like, you know, we, we had a thing called Fleet D or we had a tool called Fleet. And he's like, Nope, we're all in on Kubernetes now. And that was an amazing Yeah, >>I remember that interview. >>I, amazing decision. >>Yeah, >>It's clear we can feel the shift. It's something that's come up a lot this week is is the commitment. Everybody's all in. People are ready for their transformation and Kubernetes is definitely gonna be the orchestrator that we're >>Leveraging. Yeah. And it's an amazing community. But it was, we got lucky that the, the foundational technology, I mean, you know, coming out of Google based on Go conferences, based on Go, it's no to coincidence that this sort of nature of, you know, pods horizontally, scalable, it's all fits together. I does make sense. Yeah. I mean, no offense to Python and some of the other technologies that were built in other languages, but Go is an awesome language. It's so, so innovative. Innovative things you could do with it. >>Awesome. Oh definitely. Jake, I'm very curious since we learned on the way and you are a Detroit native? >>I am. Yep. I grew up in the in Warren, which is just a suburb right outside of Detroit. >>So what does it mean to you as a Michigan born bloke to be here, see your entire community invade? >>It is, I grew up coming to the Detroit Auto Show in this very room >>That brought me to Detroit the first time. Love n a I a s. Been there with our friends at Ford just behind us. >>And it's just so interesting to me to see the accumulation, the accumulation of tech coming to Detroit cuz it's really not something that historically has been a huge presence. And I just love it. I love to see the activity out on the streets. I love to see all the restaurants and coffee shops full of people. Just, I might tear up. >>Well, I was wondering if it would give you a little bit of that hometown pride and also the joy of bringing your community together. I mean, this is merging your two probably most core communities. Yeah, >>Yeah. Your >>Youth and your, and your career. It doesn't get more personal than that really. Right. >>It's just been, it's been really exciting to see the energy. >>Well thanks for going on the queue. Thanks for sharing. Appreciate it. Thanks >>For having us. Yeah, thank you both so much. Lisa, you were a joy of ball of energy right when you walked up. Jake, what a compelling story. Really appreciate you sharing it with us. John, thanks for the banter and the fabulous questions. I'm >>Glad I could help out. >>Yeah, you do. A lot more than help out sweetheart. And to all of you watching the Cube today, thank you so much for joining us live from Detroit, the Cube Studios. My name is Savannah Peterson and we'll see you for our event wrap up next.

(bright upbeat music) >> Hey, guys. Welcome back to Detroit, Michigan. Lisa Martin and John Furrier here live with "theCUBE" at KubeCon CloudNativeCon, North America. John, it's been a great day. This is day one of our coverage of three days of coverage. Kubernetes is growing up. It's maturing. >> Yeah, we got three days of wall-to-wall coverage, all about Kubernetes. We heard about Security, Large scale, Cloud native at scale. That's the big focus. This next segment's going to be really awesome. You have a fast growing private company and a practitioner, big name, blue chip practitioner, building out next-gen cloud. First transforming, then building out the next level. This is classic, what we call Super Cloud-Like interview. It's going to be great. I'm looking forward to this. >> Anytime we can talk about Super Cloud, right? Please welcome back, one of our alumni, Haseeb Budhani is here, the CEO of Rafay. Great to see you. Santhosh Pasula, also joins us, the global head of Cloud SRE at Mass Mutual. Guys, great to have you on the program. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you for having me. >> So, Haseeb, you've been on "theCUBE" many times. You were on just recently, with the momentum that's around us today with the maturation of Kubernetes, the collaboration of the community, the recognition of the community. What are some of the things that you're excited about with on day one of the show? >> Wow, so many new companies. I mean, there are companies that I don't know who are here. And I live in this industry, and I'm seeing companies that I don't know, which is a good thing. It means that the community's growing. But at the same time, I'm also seeing another thing, which is, I have met more enterprise representatives at this show than other KubeCons. Like when we hung out at in Valencia, for example, or even other places, it hasn't been this many people. Which means, and this is a good thing that enterprises are now taking Kubernetes seriously. It's not a toy. It's not just for developers. It's enterprises who are now investing in Kubernetes as a foundational component for their applications going forward. And that to me is very, very good. >> Definitely, becoming foundational. >> Haseeb: Yeah. >> Well, you guys got a great traction. We had many interviews at "theCUBE," and you got a practitioner here with you guys, are both pioneering, kind of what I call the next-gen cloud. First you got to get through Gen-One, which you guys done at Mass Mutual extremely well. Take us through the story of your transformation? 'Cause you're on at the front end now of that next inflection point. But take us through how you got here? You had a lot of transformation success at Mass Mutual? >> So, I was actually talking about this topic few minutes back. And the whole cloud journey in big companies, large financial institutions, healthcare industry or insurance sector, it takes generations of leadership to get to that perfection level. And ideally, the cloud for strategy starts in, and then how do you standardize and optimize cloud, right? That's the second-gen altogether, and then operationalization of the cloud. And especially if you're talking about Kubernetes, in the traditional world, almost every company is running middleware and their applications in middleware. And their containerization is a topic that came in. And Docker is basically the runtime containerization. So, that came in first, and from Docker, eventually when companies started adopting Docker, Docker Swarm is one of the technologies that they adopted. And eventually, when we were taking it to a more complicated application implementations or modernization efforts, that's when Kubernetes played a key role. And as Haseeb was pointing out, you never saw so many companies working on Kubernetes. So, that should tell you one story, right? How fast Kubernetes is growing, and how important it is for your cloud strategy. >> And your success now, and what are you thinking about now? What's on your agenda now? As you look forward, what's on your plate? What are you guys doing right now? >> So we are past the stage of proof of concepts, proof of technologies, pilot implementations. We are actually playing it, the real game now. In the past, I used the quote, like "Hello world to real world." So, we are actually playing in the real world, not in the hello world anymore. Now, this is where the real time challenges will pop up. So, if you're talking about standardizing it, and then optimizing the cloud, and how do you put your governance structure in place? How do you make sure your regulations are met? The demands that come out of regulations are met? And how are you going to scale it? And while scaling, how are you going to keep up with all the governance and regulations that come with it? So we are in that stage today. >> Haseeb talked about, you talked about the great evolution of what's going on at Mass Mutual. Haseeb talk a little bit about who? You mentioned one of the things that's surprising you about this KubeCon in Detroit, is that you're seeing a lot more enterprise folks here? Who's deciding in the organization and your customer conversations? Who are the decision makers in terms of adoption of Kubernetes these days? Is that elevating? >> Hmm. Well, this guy. (Lisa laughing) One of the things I'm seeing here, and John and I have talked about this in the past, this idea of a platform organization and enterprises. So, consistently what I'm seeing, is somebody, a CTO, CIO level, an individual is making a decision. I have multiple internal Bus who are now modernizing applications. They're individually investing in DevOps, and this is not a good investment for my business. I'm going to centralize some of this capability so that we can all benefit together. And that team is essentially a platform organization. And they're making Kubernetes a shared services platform so that everybody else can come and sort of consume it. So, what that means to us, is our customer is a platform organization, and their customer is a developer. So we have to make two constituencies successful. Our customer who's providing a multi-tenant platform, and then their customer, who's your developer, both have to be happy. If you don't solve for both, you know, constituencies, you're not going to be successful. >> So, you're targeting the builder of the infrastructure and the consumer of that infrastructure? >> Yes, sir. It has to be both. >> On the other side? >> Exactly, right. So that look, honestly, it takes iteration to figure these things out. But this is a consistent theme that I am seeing. In fact, what I would argue now, is that every enterprise should be really stepping back and thinking about what is my platform strategy? Because if you don't have a platform strategy, you're going to have a bunch of different teams who are doing different things, and some will be successful, and look, some will not be. And that is not good for business. >> Yeah, and Santhosh, I want to get to you. You mentioned your transformations, what you look forward, and your title, Global Head of Cloud, SRE. Okay, so SRE, we all know came from Google, right? Everyone wants to be like Google, but no one wants to be like Google, right? And no one is Google. Google's a unique thing. >> Haseeb: Only one Google. >> But they had the dynamic and the power dynamic of one person to large scale set of servers or infrastructure. But concept can be portable, but the situation isn't. So, Borg became Kubernetes, that's inside baseball. So, you're doing essentially what Google did at their scale, you're doing for Mass Mutual. That's kind of what's happening, is that kind of how I see it? And you guys are playing in there partnering? >> So, I totally agree. Google introduce SRE, Site Reliability Engineering. And if you take the traditional transformation of the roles, in the past, it was called operations, and then DevOps ops came in, and then SRE is the new buzzword. And the future could be something like Product Engineering. And in this journey, here is what I tell folks on my side, like what worked for Google might not work for a financial company. It might not work for an insurance company. It's okay to use the word, SRE, but end of the day, that SRE has to be tailored down to your requirements. And the customers that you serve, and the technology that you serve. >> This is why I'm coming back, this platform engineering. At the end of the day, I think SRE just translates to, you're going to have a platform engineering team? 'Cause you got to enable developers to be producing more code faster, better, cheaper, guardrails, policies. It's kind of becoming the, these serve the business, which is now the developers. IT used to serve the business back in the old days, "Hey, the IT serves the business." >> Yup. >> Which is a term now. >> Which is actually true now. >> The new IT serves the developers, which is the business. >> Which is the business. >> Because if digital transformation goes to completion, the company is the app. >> The hard line between development and operations, so that's thinning down. Over the time, that line might disappear. And that's where SRE is fitting in. >> Yeah, and then building platform to scale the enablement up. So, what is the key challenges? You guys are both building out together this new transformational direction. What's new and what's the same? The same is probably the business results, but what's the new dynamic involved in rolling it out and making people successful? You got the two constituents, the builders of the infrastructures and the consumers of the services on the other side. What's the new thing? >> So, the new thing, if I may go first. The faster market to value that we are bringing to the table, that's very important. Business has an idea. How do you get that idea implemented in terms of technology and take it into real time? So, that journey we have cut down. Technology is like Kubernetes. It makes an IT person's life so easy that they can speed up the process. In a traditional way, what used to take like an year, or six months, can be done in a month today, or less than that. So, there's definitely speed velocity, agility in general, and then flexibility. And then the automation that we put in, especially if you have to maintain like thousands of clusters. These are today, it is possible to make that happen with a click off a button. In the past, it used to take, probably, 100-person team, and operational team to do it, and a lot of time. But that automation is happening. And we can get into the technology as much as possible, but blueprinting and all that stuff made it possible. >> We'll save that for another interview. We'll do it deep time. (panel laughing) >> But the end user on the other end, the consumer doesn't have the patience that they once had, right? It's, "I want this in my lab now." How does the culture of Mass Mutual? How is it evolve to be able to deliver the velocity that your customers are demanding? >> Once in a while, it's important to step yourself into the customer's shoes and think it from their perspective. Business does not care how you're running your IT shop. What they care about is your stability of the product and the efficiencies of the product, and how easy it is to reach out to the customers. And how well we are serving the customers, right? So, whether I'm implementing Docker in the background, Docker Swam or Kubernetes, business doesn't even care about it. What they really care about, it is, if your environment goes down, it's a problem. And if your environment or if your solution is not as efficient as the business needs, that's the problem, right? So, at that point, the business will step in. So, our job is to make sure, from a technology perspective, how fast you can make implement it? And how efficiently you can implement it? And at the same time, how do you play within the guardrails of security and compliance? >> So, I was going to ask you, if you have VMware in your environment? 'Cause a lot of clients compare what vCenter does for Kubernetes is really needed. And I think that's what you guys got going on. I can say that, you're the vCenter of Kubernetes. I mean, as as metaphor, a place to manage it all, is all one paint of glass, so to speak. Is that how you see success in your environment? >> So, virtualization has gone a long way. Where we started, what we call bare metal servers, and then we virtualized operating systems. Now, we are virtualizing applications, and we are virtualizing platforms as well, right? So that's where Kubernetes plays a role. >> So, you see the need for a vCenter like thing for Kubernetes? >> There's definitely a need in the market. The way you need to think is like, let's say there is an insurance company who actually implement it today, and they gain the market advantage. Now, the the competition wants to do it as well, right? So, there's definitely a virtualization of application layer that's very critical, and it's a critical component of cloud strategy as a whole. >> See, you're too humble to say it. I'll say, you're like the vCenter of Kubernetes. Explain what that means in your term? If I said that to you, what would you react? How would you react to that? Would you say, BS, or would you say on point? >> Maybe we should think about what does vCenter do today? So, in my opinion, by the way, vCenter in my opinion, is one of the best platforms ever built. Like it's the best platform in my opinion ever built. VMware did an amazing job, because they took an IT engineer, and they made him now be able to do storage management, networking management, VM's multitenancy, access management, audit. Everything that you need to run a data center, you can do from essentially single platform. >> John: From a utility standpoint, home-run? >> It's amazing. >> Yeah. >> Because you are now able to empower people to do way more. Well, why are we not doing that for Kubernetes? So, the premise man Rafay was, well, I should have IT engineers, same engineers. Now, they should be able to run fleets of clusters. That's what people that Mass Mutual are able to do now. So, to that end, now you need cluster management, you need access management, you need blueprinting, you need policy management. All of these things that have happened before, chargebacks, they used to have it in vCenter, now they need to happen in other platforms but for Kubernetes. So, should we do many of the things that vCenter does? Yes. >> John: Kind of, yeah. >> Are we a vCenter for Kubernetes? >> No. >> That is a John Furrier question. >> All right, well, the speculation really goes back down to the earlier speed question. If you can take away the complexity and not make it more steps, or change a tool chain, or do something, then the Devs move faster. And the service layer that serves the business, the new organization, has to enable speed. This is becoming a real discussion point in the industry, is that, "Yeah, we got new tool. Look at the shiny new toy." But if it move the needle, does it help productivity for developers? And does it actually scale up the enablement? That's the question. So, I'm sure you guys are thinking about this a lot. What's your reaction? >> Yeah, absolutely. And one thing that just hit my mind, is think about the hoteling industry before Airbnb and after Airbnb. Or the taxi industry before Uber and after Uber. So, if I'm providing a platform, a Kubernetes platform for my application folks, or for my application partners, they have everything ready. All they need to do is build their application and deploy it, and run it. They don't have to worry about provisioning of the servers, and then building the Middleware on top of it, and then, do a bunch of testing to make sure they iron out all the compatible issues and whatnot. Now, today, all I say is like, "Hey, we have a platform built for you. You just build your application, and then deploy it in a development environment, that's where you put all the pieces of puzzle together. Make sure you see your application working, and then the next thing that you do is like, do the correction. >> John: Shipping. >> Shipping. You build the production. >> John: Press. Go. Release it. (laughs) That when you move on, but they were there. I mean, we're there now. We're there. So, we need to see the future, because that's the case, then the developers are the business. They have to be coding more features, they have to react to customers. They might see new business opportunities from a revenue standpoint that could be creatively built, got low code, no code, headless systems. These things are happening where there's, I call the Architectural List Environment where it's like, you don't need architecture, it's already happening. >> Yeah, and on top of it, if someone has an idea, they want to implement an idea real quick. So, how do you do it? And you don't have to struggle building an environment to implement your idea and test it in real time. So, from an innovation perspective, agility plays a key role. And that's where the Kubernetes platforms, or platforms like Kubernetes plays. >> You know, Lisa, when we talked to Andy Jassy, when he was the CEO of AWS, either one-on-one or on "theCUBE," he always said, and this is kind of happening, "Companies are going to be builders, where it's not just utility, you need that table stakes to enable that new business idea." And so, in this last keynote, he did this big thing like, "Think like your developers are the next entrepreneurial revenue generators." I think I'm starting to see that. What do you think about that? You see that coming sooner than later? Or is that an insight, or is that still ways away? >> I think it's already happening at a level, at a certain level. Now ,the question comes back to, you know, taking it to the reality. I mean, you can do your proof of concept, proof of technologies, and then prove it out like, "Hey, I got a new idea. This idea is great." And it's to the business advantage. But we really want to see it in production live where your customers are actually using it. >> In the board meetings, "Hey, we got a new idea that came in, generating more revenue, where'd that come from?" Agile Developer. Again, this is real. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Absolutely agree. Yeah, I think both of you gentlemen said a word as you were talking, you used the word, Guardrails. We're talking about agility, but the really important thing is, look, these are enterprises, right? They have certain expectations. Guardrails is key, right? So, it's automation with the guardrails. Guardrails are like children, you know, shouldn't be heard. They're seen but not heard. Developers don't care about guardrails, they just want to go fast. >> They also bounce around a little bit, (laughs) off the guardrails. >> Haseeb: Yeah. >> One thing we know that's not going to slow down, is the expectations, right? Of all the consumers of this, the Devs, the business, the business top line, and, of course, the customers. So, the ability to really, as your website says, let's say, "Make Life Easy for Platform Teams" is not trivial. And clearly what you guys are talking about here, is you're really an enabler of those platform teams, it sounds like to me. >> Yup. >> So, great work, guys. Thank you so much for both coming on the program, talking about what you're doing together, how you're seeing the evolution of Kubernetes, why? And really, what the focus should be on those platform teams. We appreciate all your time and your insights. >> Thank you so much for having us. >> Thanks for having us. >> Our pleasure. For our guests and for John Furrier, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching "theCUBE" Live, KubeCon CloudNativeCon from Detroit. We'll be back with our next guest in just a minute, so stick around. (bright upbeat music)

>>Welcome back everyone to the Cube's live coverage here in San Francisco of VMware Explorer, 2022. I'm John furrier with Dave ante coast of the hub. We're two sets, three days of wall to wall coverage. Our 12 year covering VMware's annual conference day, formerly world. Now VMware Explorer. We're kicking off day tube, no Sharma director of product management at Google cloud GCP. No Thankss for coming on the cube. Good to see you. >>Yeah. Very nice to see you as well. >>It's been a while. Google next cloud. Next is your event. We haven't been there cuz of the pandemic. Now you got an event coming up in October. You wanna give that plug out there in October 11th, UHS gonna be kind of a hybrid show. You guys with GCP, doing great. Getting up, coming up on in, in the rear with third place, Amazon Azure GCP, you guys have really nailed the developer and the AI and the data piece in the cloud. And now with VMware, with multicloud, you guys are in the mix in the universal program that they got here had been, been a partnership. Talk about the Google VMware relationship real quick. >>Yeah, no, I wanna first address, you know, us being in third place. I think when, when customers think about cloud transformation, you know, they, they, for them, it's all about how you can extract value from the data, you know, how you can transform your business with AI. And as far as that's concerned, we are in first place. Now coming to the VMware partnership, what we observed was, you know, you know, first of all, like there's a lot of data gravity built over the past, you know, 20 years in it, you know, and you know, VMware has, you know, really standardized it platforms. And when it comes to the data gravity, what we found was that, you know, customers want to extract the value that, you know, lives in that data as I was just talking about, but they find it hard to change architectures and, you know, bring those architectures into, you know, the cloud native world, you know, with microservices and so forth. >>Especially when, you know, these applications have been built over the last 20 years with off the shelf, you know, commercial off the shelf in, you know, systems you don't even know who wrote the code. You don't know what the IP address configuration is. And it's, you know, if you change anything, it can break your production. But at the same time, they want to take advantage of what the cloud has to offer. You know, the self-service the elasticity, you know, the, the economies of scale efficiencies of operation. So we wanted to, you know, bring CU, you know, bring the cloud to where the customer is with this service. And, you know, with, like I said, you know, VMware was the defacto it platform. So it was a no brainer for us to say, you know what, we'll give VMware in a native manner yeah. For our customers and bring all the benefits of the cloud into it to help them transform and take advantage of the cloud. >>It's interesting. And you called out that the, the advantages of Google cloud, one of the things that we've observed is, you know, VMware trying to be much more cloud native in their messaging and their positioning. They're trying to connect into that developer world for cloud native. I mean, Google, I mean, you guys have been cloud native literally from day one, just as a company. Yeah. Infrastructure wise, I mean, DevOps was an infrastructures code was Google's DNA. I, you had Borg, which became Kubernetes. Everyone kind of knows that in the history, if you, if you're in, in the, inside the ropes. Yeah. So as you guys have that core competency of essentially infrastructures code, which is basically cloud, how are you guys bringing that into the enterprise with the VMware, because that's where the puck is going. Right. That's where the use cases are. Okay. You got data clearly an advantage there, developers, you guys do really well with developers. We see that at say Coon and CNCF. Where's the use cases as the enterprise start to really figure out that this is now happening with hybrid and they gotta be more cloud native. Are they ramping up certain use cases? Can you share and connect the dots between what you guys had as your core competency and where the enterprise use cases are? >>Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think transformation means a lot of things, especially when you get into the cloud, you want to be not only efficient, but you also wanna make sure you're secure, right. And that you can manage and maintain your infrastructure in a way that you can reason about it. When, you know, when things go wrong, we took a very unique approach with Google cloud VMware engine. When we brought it to the cloud to Google cloud, what we did was we, we took like a cloud native approach. You know, it would seem like, you know, we are to say that, okay, VMware is cloud native, but in fact that's what we've done with this service from the ground up. One of the things we wanted to do was make sure we meet all the enterprise needs availability. We are the only service that gives four nines of SLA in a single site. >>We are the only service that has fully redundant networking so that, you know, some of the pets that you run on the VMware platform with your operational databases and the keys to the kingdom, you know, they can be run in a efficient manner and in a, in a, in a stable manner and, and, you know, in a highly available fashion, but we also paid attention to performance. One of our customers Mitel runs a unified communication service. And what they found was, you know, the high performance infrastructure, low latency infrastructure actually helps them deliver, you know, highly reliable, you know, communication experience to their customers. Right. And so, you know, we, you know, while, you know, so we developed the service from the ground up, making sure we meet the needs of these enterprise applications, but also wanted to make sure it's positioned for the future. >>Well, integrated into Google cloud VPC, networking, billing, identities, access control, you know, support all of that with a one stop shop. Right? And so this completely changes the game for, for enterprises on the outset, but what's more like we also have built in integration to cloud operations, you know, a single pane of glass for managing all your cloud infrastructure. You know, you have the ability to easily ELT into BigQuery and, you know, get a data transformation going that way from your operational databases. So, so I think we took a very like clean room ground from the ground of approach to make sure we get the best of both worlds to our customers. So >>Essentially made the VMware stack of first class citizen connecting to all the go Google tool. Did you build a bare metal instance to be able to support >>That? We, we actually have a very customized infrastructure to make sure that, you know, the experience that customers looking for in the VMware context is what we can deliver to them. And, and like I said, you know, being able to manage the pets in, in addition to the cattle that, that we are, we are getting with the modern containerized workloads. >>And, and it's not likely you did that as a one off, I, I would presume that other partners can potentially take advantage of that, that approach as well. Is that >>True? Absolutely. So one of our other examples is, is SAP, you know, our SAP infrastructure runs on very similar kind of, you know, highly redundant infrastructure, some, some parts of it. And, and then, you know, we also have in the same context partners such as NetApp. So, so customers want to, you know, truly, so, so there's two parts to it, right? One is to meet customers where they already are, but also take them to the future. And partner NetApp has delivered a cloud service that is well integrated into the platform, serves use cases like VDI serves use cases for, you know, tier two data protection scenarios, Dr. And also high performance context that customers are looking for, explain >>To people because think a lot of times people understand say, oh, NetApp, but doesn't Google have storage. Yeah. So explain that relationship and why that, that is complimentary. Yeah. And not just some kind of divergence from your strategy. >>Yeah. Yeah. No. So I think the, the idea here is NetApp, the NetApp platform living on-prem, you know, for, for so many years, it's, it's built a lot of capabilities that customers take advantage of. Right. So for example, it has the sta snap mirror capabilities that enable, you know, instant Dr. Of between locations and customers. When they think of the cloud, they are also thinking of heterogeneous context where some of the infrastructure is still needs to live on prem. So, you know, they have the Dr going on from the on-prem side using snap mirror, into Google cloud. And so, you know, it enables that entry point into the cloud. And so we believe, you know, partnering with NetApp kind of enables these high performance, you know, high, you know, reliability and also enables the customers to meet regulatory needs for, you know, the Dr. And data protection that they're looking for. And, >>And NetApp, obviously a big VMware partner as well. So I can take that partnership with VMware and NetApp into the Google cloud. >>Correct. Yeah. Yeah. It's all about leverage. Like I said, you know, meeting customers where they already are and ensuring that we smoothen their journey into the future rather than making it like a single step, you know, quantum leap. So to speak between two words, you know, I think, you know, I like to say like for the, for the longest time the cloud was being presented as a false choice between, you know, the infrastructure as of, of the past and the infrastructure of the future, like the red pill and the blue pill. Right. And, you know, we've, I like to say, like, I've, you know, we've brought, brought into the, into this context, the purple pill. Right. Which gives you really the best of both tools. >>Yeah. And this is a tailwind for you guys now, and I wanna get your thoughts on this and your differentiation around multi-cloud that's around the corner. Yeah. I mean, everyone now recognizes at least multi clouds of reality. People have workloads on AWS, Azure and GCP. That is technically multi-cloud. Yeah. Now the notion of spanning applications across clouds is coming certainly hybrid cloud is a steady state, which essentially DevOps on prem or edge in the cloud. So, so you have, now the recognition that's here, you guys are positioned well for this. How is that evolving and how are you positioning yourself with, and how you're differentiating around as clients start thinking, Hey, you know what, I can start running things on AWS and GCP. Yeah. And OnPrem in a really kind of a distributed way. Yeah. With abstractions and these things that people are talking about super cloud, what we call it. And, and this is really the conversations. Okay. What does that next future around the corner architecture look like? And how do you guys fit in, because this is an opportunity for you guys. It's almost, it's almost, it's like Wayne Gretsky, the puck is coming to you. Yeah. Yeah. It seems that way to me. What, how do you respond to >>That? Yeah, no, I think, you know, Raghu said, yes, I did yesterday. Right. It's all about being cloud smart in this new heterogeneous world. I think Google cloud has always been the most open and the most customer oriented cloud. And the reason I say that is because, you know, looking at like our Kubernetes platform, right. What we've enabled with Kubernetes and Antho is the ability for a customer to run containerized infrastructure in the same consistent manner, no matter what the platform. So while, you know, Kubernetes runs on GKE, you can run using Anthos on the VMware platform and you can run using Anthos on any other cloud on the planet in including AWS Azure. And, and so it's, you know, we, we take a very open, we've taken an open approach with Kubernetes to begin with, but, you know, the, the fact that, you know, with Anthos and this multicloud management experience that we can provide customers, we are, we are letting customers get the full freedom of an advantage of what multicloud has to has to offer. And I like to say, you know, VMware is the ES of ISAs, right. Cause cuz if you think about it, it's the only hypervisor that you can run in the same consistent manner, take the same image and run it on any of the providers. Right. And you can, you know, link it, you know, with the L two extensions and create a fabric that spans the world and, and, and multiple >>Products with, with almost every company using VMware. >>That's pretty much that's right. It's the largest, like the VMware network of, of infrastructure is the largest network on the planet. Right. And so, so it's, it's truly about enabling customer choice. We believe that every cloud, you know, brings its advantages and, you know, at the end of their day, the technology of, you know, capabilities of the provider, the differentiation of the provider need to stand on its merit. And so, you know, we truly embrace this notion of money. Those ops guys >>Have to connect to opportunities to connect to you, you guys in yeah. In, in the cloud. >>Yeah. Absolutely >>Like to ask you a question sort of about database philosophy and maybe, maybe futures a little bit, there seems to be two camps. I mean, you've got multiple databases, you got span for, you know, kind of global distributed database. You've got big query for analytics. There seems to be a trend in the industry for some providers to say, okay, let's, let's converge the transactions and analytics and kind of maybe eliminate the need to do a lot of Elting and others are saying, no, no, we want to be, be, you know, really precise and distinct with our capabilities and, and, and have be spoke set of capability, right. Tool for the right job. Let's call it. What's Google's philosophy in that regard. And, and how do you think about database in the future? >>So, so I think, you know, when it comes to, you know, something as general and as complex as data, right, you know, data lives in all ships and forms, it, it moves at various velocities that moves at various scale. And so, you know, we truly believe that, you know, customers should have the flexibility and freedom to put things together using, you know, these various contexts and, and, you know, build the right set of outcomes for themselves. So, you know, we, we provide cloud SQL, right, where customers can run their own, you know, dedicated infrastructure, fully managed and operated by Google at a high level of SLA compared to any other way of doing it. We have a database born in the cloud, a data warehouse born in the cloud BigQuery, which enables zero ops, you know, zero touch, you know, instant, you know, know high performance analytics at scale, you know, span gives customers high levels of reliability and redundancy in, in, in a worldwide context. So with, with, with extreme levels of innovation coming from, you know, the, the, the NTP, you know, that happen across different instances. Right? So I, you know, I, we, we do think that, you know, data moves a different scale and, and different velocity and, and, you know, customers have a complex set of needs. And, and so our portfolio of database services put together can truly address all ends of the spectrum. >>Yeah. And we've certainly been following you guys at CNCF and the work that Google cloud's doing extremely strong technical people. Yeah. Really open source focused, great products, technology. You guys do a great job. And I, I would imagine, and it's clear that VMware is an opportunity for you guys, given the DNA of their customer base. The installed base is huge. You guys have that nice potential connection where these customers are kind of going where its puck is going. You guys are there now for the next couple minutes, give a, give a plug for Google cloud to the VMware customer base out there. Yeah. Why Google cloud, why now what's in it for them? What's the, what's the value parts? Give the, give the plug for Google cloud to the VMware community. >>Absolutely. So, so I think, you know, especially with VMware engine, what we've built, you know, is truly like a cloud native next generation enterprise platform. Right. And it does three specific things, right? It gives you a cloud optimized experience, right? Like the, the idea being, you know, self-service efficiencies, economies, you know, operational benefits, you get that from the platform and a customer like Mitel was able to take advantage of that. Being able to use the same platform that they were running in their co-located context and migrate more than a thousand VMs in less than 90 days, something that they weren't able to do for, for over two years. The second aspect of our, you know, our transformation journey that we enable with this service is cloud integration. What that means is the same VPC experience that you get in the, the, the networking global networking that Google cloud has to offer. >>The VMware platform is fully integrated into that. And so the benefits of, you know, having a subnet that can live anywhere in the world, you know, having multi VPC, but more importantly, the benefits of having these Google cloud services like BigQuery and span and cloud operations management at your fingertips in the same layer, three domain, you know, just make an IP call and your data is transformed into BigQuery from your operational databases and car four. The retailer in Europe actually was able to do that with our service. And not only that, you know, do do the operational transform into BigQuery, you know, from their, the data gravity living in VMware on, on VMware engine, but they were able to do it in, you know, cost effective, a manner. They, they saved, you know, over 40% compared to the, the current context and also lower the co increase the agility of operations at the same time. >>Right. And so for them, this was extremely transf transformative. And lastly, we believe in the context of being open, we are also a very partner friendly cloud. And so, you know, customers come bring VMware platform because of all the, it, you know, ecosystem that comes along with it, right. You've got your VM or your Zerto or your rubric, or your capacity for data protection and, and backup. You've got security from Forex, tha fortunate, you know, you've got, you know, like we'd already talked about NetApp storage. So we, you know, we are open in that technology context, ISVs, you know, fully supported >>Integrations key. Yeah, >>Yeah, exactly. And, and, you know, that's how you build a platform, right? Yeah. And so, so we enable that, but, but, you know, we also enable customers getting into the future, going into the future, through their AI, through the AI capabilities and services that are once again available at, at their fingertips. >>Soo, thanks for coming on. Really appreciate it. And, you know, as super clouds, we call it, our multi-cloud comes around the corner, you got the edge exploding, you guys do a great job in networking and security, which is well known. What's your view of this super cloud multi-cloud world. What's different about it? Why isn't it just sass on cloud what's, what's this next gen cloud really about it. You had to kind of kind explain that to, to business folks and technical folks out there. Is it, is it something unique? Do you see a, a refactoring? Is it something that does something different? Yeah. What, what doesn't make it just SAS. >>Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that, you know, there's, there's different use cases that customers have have in mind when they, when they think about multi-cloud. I think the first thing is they don't want to have, you know, all eggs in a single basket. Right. And, and so, you know, it, it helps diversify their risk. I mean, and it's a real problem. Like you, you see outages in, you know, in, in availability zones that take out entire businesses. So customers do wanna make sure that they're not, they're, they're able to increase their availability, increase their resiliency through the use of multiple providers, but I think so, so that's like getting the same thing in different contexts, but at the same time, the context is shifting right. There is some, there's some data sources that originate, you know, elsewhere and there, the scale and the velocity of those sources is so vast, you know, you might be producing video from retail stores and, you know, you wanna make sure, you know, this, this security and there's, you know, information awareness built about those sources. >>And so you want to process that data, add the source and take instant decisions with that proximity. And that's why we believe with the GC and, you know, with, with both, both the edge versions and the hosted versions, GDC stands for Google, Google distributed cloud, where we bring the benefit and value of Google cloud to different locations on the edge, as well as on-prem. And so I think, you know, those kinds of contexts become important. And so I think, you know, we, you know, we are not only do we need to be open and pervasive, you know, but we also need to be compatible and, and, and also have the proximity to where information lives and value lives. >>Minish. Thanks for coming on the cube here at VMware Explorer, formerly world. Thanks for your time. Thank >>You so much. Okay. >>This is the cube. I'm John for Dave ante live day two coverage here on Moscone west lobby for VMware Explorer. We'll be right back with more after the short break.

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vollante. >> The rise of Kubernetes came about through a combination of forces that were, in hindsight, quite a long shot. Amazon's dominance created momentum for Cloud native application development, and the need for newer and simpler experiences, beyond just easily spinning up computer as a service. This wave crashed into innovations from a startup named Docker, and a reluctant competitor in Google, that needed a way to change the game on Amazon and the Cloud. Now, add in the effort of Red Hat, which needed a new path beyond Enterprise Linux, and oh, by the way, it was just about to commit to a path of a Kubernetes alternative for OpenShift and figure out a governance structure to hurt all the cats and the ecosystem and you get the remarkable ascendancy of Kubernetes. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we tapped the back stories of a new documentary that explains the improbable events that led to the creation of Kubernetes. We'll share some new survey data from ETR and commentary from the many early the innovators who came on theCUBE during the exciting period since the founding of Docker in 2013, which marked a new era in computing, because we're talking about Kubernetes and developers today, the hoodie is on. And there's a new two part documentary that I just referenced, it's out and it was produced by Honeypot on Kubernetes, part one and part two, tells a story of how Kubernetes came to prominence and many of the players that made it happen. Now, a lot of these players, including Tim Hawkin Kelsey Hightower, Craig McLuckie, Joe Beda, Brian Grant Solomon Hykes, Jerry Chen and others came on theCUBE during formative years of containers going mainstream and the rise of Kubernetes. John Furrier and Stu Miniman were at the many shows we covered back then and they unpacked what was happening at the time. We'll share the commentary from the guests that they interviewed and try to add some context. Now let's start with the concept of developer defined structure, DDI. Jerry Chen was at VMware and he could see the trends that were evolving. He left VMware to become a venture capitalist at Greylock. Docker was his first investment. And he saw the future this way. >> What happens is when you define infrastructure software you can program it. You make it portable. And that the beauty of this cloud wave what I call DDI's. Now, to your point is every piece of infrastructure from storage, networking, to compute has an API, right? And, and AWS there was an early trend where S3, EBS, EC2 had API. >> As building blocks too. >> As building blocks, exactly. >> Not monolithic. >> Monolithic building blocks every little building bone block has it own API and just like Docker really is the API for this unit of the cloud enables developers to define how they want to build their applications, how to network them know as Wills talked about, and how you want to secure them and how you want to store them. And so the beauty of this generation is now developers are determining how apps are built, not just at the, you know, end user, you know, iPhone app layer the data layer, the storage layer, the networking layer. So every single level is being disrupted by this concept of a DDI and where, how you build use and actually purchase IT has changed. And you're seeing the incumbent vendors like Oracle, VMware Microsoft try to react but you're seeing a whole new generation startup. >> Now what Jerry was explaining is that this new abstraction layer that was being built here's some ETR data that quantifies that and shows where we are today. The chart shows net score or spending momentum on the vertical axis and market share which represents the pervasiveness in the survey set. So as Jerry and the innovators who created Docker saw the cloud was becoming prominent and you can see it still has spending velocity that's elevated above that 40% red line which is kind of a magic mark of momentum. And of course, it's very prominent on the X axis as well. And you see the low level infrastructure virtualization and that even floats above servers and storage and networking right. Back in 2013 the conversation with VMware. And by the way, I remember having this conversation deeply at the time with Chad Sakac was we're going to make this low level infrastructure invisible, and we intend to make virtualization invisible, IE simplified. And so, you see above the two arrows there related to containers, container orchestration and container platforms, which are abstraction layers and services above the underlying VMs and hardware. And you can see the momentum that they have right there with the cloud and AI and RPA. So you had these forces that Jerry described that were taking shape, and this picture kind of summarizes how they came together to form Kubernetes. And the upper left, Of course you see AWS and we inserted a picture from a post we did, right after the first reinvent in 2012, it was obvious to us at the time that the cloud gorilla was AWS and had all this momentum. Now, Solomon Hykes, the founder of Docker, you see there in the upper right. He saw the need to simplify the packaging of applications for cloud developers. Here's how he described it. Back in 2014 in theCUBE with John Furrier >> Container is a unit of deployment, right? It's the format in which you package your application all the files, all the executables libraries all the dependencies in one thing that you can move to any server and deploy in a repeatable way. So it's similar to how you would run an iOS app on an iPhone, for example. >> A Docker at the time was a 30% company and it just changed its name from .cloud. And back to the diagram you have Google with a red question mark. So why would you need more than what Docker had created. Craig McLuckie, who was a product manager at Google back then explains the need for yet another abstraction. >> We created the strong separation between infrastructure operations and application operations. And so, Docker has created a portable framework to take it, basically a binary and run it anywhere which is an amazing capability, but that's not enough. You also need to be able to manage that with a framework that can run anywhere. And so, the union of Docker and Kubernetes provides this framework where you're completely abstracted from the underlying infrastructure. You could use VMware, you could use Red Hat open stack deployment. You could run on another major cloud provider like rec. >> Now Google had this huge cloud infrastructure but no commercial cloud business compete with AWS. At least not one that was taken seriously at the time. So it needed a way to change the game. And it had this thing called Google Borg, which is a container management system and scheduler and Google looked at what was happening with virtualization and said, you know, we obviously could do better Joe Beda, who was with Google at the time explains their mindset going back to the beginning. >> Craig and I started up Google compute engine VM as a service. And the odd thing to recognize is that, nobody who had been in Google for a long time thought that there was anything to this VM stuff, right? Cause Google had been on containers for so long. That was their mindset board was the way that stuff was actually deployed. So, you know, my boss at the time, who's now at Cloudera booted up a VM for the first time, and anybody in the outside world be like, Hey, that's really cool. And his response was like, well now what? Right. You're sitting at a prompt. Like that's not super interesting. How do I run my app? Right. Which is, that's what everybody's been struggling with, with cloud is not how do I get a VM up? How do I actually run my code? >> Okay. So Google never really did virtualization. They were looking at the market and said, okay what can we do to make Google relevant in cloud. Here's Eric Brewer from Google. Talking on theCUBE about Google's thought process at the time. >> One interest things about Google is it essentially makes no use of virtual machines internally. And that's because Google started in 1998 which is the same year that VMware started was kind of brought the modern virtual machine to bear. And so Google infrastructure tends to be built really on kind of classic Unix processes and communication. And so scaling that up, you get a system that works a lot with just processes and containers. So kind of when I saw containers come along with Docker, we said, well, that's a good model for us. And we can take what we know internally which was called Borg a big scheduler. And we can turn that into Kubernetes and we'll open source it. And suddenly we have kind of a cloud version of Google that works the way we would like it to work. >> Now, Eric Brewer gave us the bumper sticker version of the story there. What he reveals in the documentary that I referenced earlier is that initially Google was like, why would we open source our secret sauce to help competitors? So folks like Tim Hockin and Brian Grant who were on the original Kubernetes team, went to management and pressed hard to convince them to bless open sourcing Kubernetes. Here's Hockin's explanation. >> When Docker landed, we saw the community building and building and building. I mean, that was a snowball of its own, right? And as it caught on we realized we know what this is going to we know once you embrace the Docker mindset that you very quickly need something to manage all of your Docker nodes, once you get beyond two or three of them, and we know how to build that, right? We got a ton of experience here. Like we went to our leadership and said, you know, please this is going to happen with us or without us. And I think it, the world would be better if we helped. >> So the open source strategy became more compelling as they studied the problem because it gave Google a way to neutralize AWS's advantage because with containers you could develop on AWS for example, and then run the application anywhere like Google's cloud. So it not only gave developers a path off of AWS. If Google could develop a strong service on GCP they could monetize that play. Now, focus your attention back to the diagram which shows this smiling, Alex Polvi from Core OS which was acquired by Red Hat in 2018. And he saw the need to bring Linux into the cloud. I mean, after all Linux was powering the internet it was the OS for enterprise apps. And he saw the need to extend its path into the cloud. Now here's how he described it at an OpenStack event in 2015. >> Similar to what happened with Linux. Like yes, there is still need for Linux and Windows and other OSs out there. But by and large on production, web infrastructure it's all Linux now. And you were able to get onto one stack. And how were you able to do that? It was, it was by having a truly open consistent API and a commitment into not breaking APIs and, so on. That allowed Linux to really become ubiquitous in the data center. Yes, there are other OSs, but Linux buy in large for production infrastructure, what is being used. And I think you'll see a similar phenomenon happen for this next level up cause we're treating the whole data center as a computer instead of trading one in visual instance is just the computer. And that's the stuff that Kubernetes to me and someone is doing. And I think there will be one that shakes out over time and we believe that'll be Kubernetes. >> So Alex saw the need for a dominant container orchestration platform. And you heard him, they made the right bet. It would be Kubernetes. Now Red Hat, Red Hat is been around since 1993. So it has a lot of on-prem. So it needed a future path to the cloud. So they rang up Google and said, hey. What do you guys have going on in this space? So Google, was kind of non-committal, but it did expose that they were thinking about doing something that was you know, pre Kubernetes. It was before it was called Kubernetes. But hey, we have this thing and we're thinking about open sourcing it, but Google's internal debates, and you know, some of the arm twisting from the engine engineers, it was taking too long. So Red Hat said, well, screw it. We got to move forward with OpenShift. So we'll do what Apple and Airbnb and Heroku are doing and we'll build on an alternative. And so they were ready to go with Mesos which was very much more sophisticated than Kubernetes at the time and much more mature, but then Google the last minute said, hey, let's do this. So Clayton Coleman with Red Hat, he was an architect. And he leaned in right away. He was one of the first outside committers outside of Google. But you still led these competing forces in the market. And internally there were debates. Do we go with simplicity or do we go with system scale? And Hen Goldberg from Google explains why they focus first on simplicity in getting that right. >> We had to defend of why we are only supporting 100 nodes in the first release of Kubernetes. And they explained that they know how to build for scale. They've done that. They know how to do it, but realistically most of users don't need large clusters. So why create this complexity? >> So Goldberg explains that rather than competing right away with say Mesos or Docker swarm, which were far more baked they made the bet to keep it simple and go for adoption and ubiquity, which obviously turned out to be the right choice. But the last piece of the puzzle was governance. Now Google promised to open source Kubernetes but when it started to open up to contributors outside of Google, the code was still controlled by Google and developers had to sign Google paper that said Google could still do whatever it wanted. It could sub license, et cetera. So Google had to pass the Baton to an independent entity and that's how CNCF was started. Kubernetes was its first project. And let's listen to Chris Aniszczyk of the CNCF explain >> CNCF is all about providing a neutral home for cloud native technology. And, you know, it's been about almost two years since our first board meeting. And the idea was, you know there's a certain set of technology out there, you know that are essentially microservice based that like live in containers that are essentially orchestrated by some process, right? That's essentially what we mean when we say cloud native right. And CNCF was seated with Kubernetes as its first project. And you know, as, as we've seen over the last couple years Kubernetes has grown, you know, quite well they have a large community a diverse con you know, contributor base and have done, you know, kind of extremely well. They're one of actually the fastest, you know highest velocity, open source projects out there, maybe. >> Okay. So this is how we got to where we are today. This ETR data shows container orchestration offerings. It's the same X Y graph that we showed earlier. And you can see where Kubernetes lands not we're standing that Kubernetes not a company but respondents, you know, they doing Kubernetes. They maybe don't know, you know, whose platform and it's hard with the ETR taxon economy as a fuzzy and survey data because Kubernetes is increasingly becoming embedded into cloud platforms. And IT pros, they may not even know which one specifically. And so the reason we've linked these two platforms Kubernetes and Red Hat OpenShift is because OpenShift right now is a dominant revenue player in the space and is increasingly popular PaaS layer. Yeah. You could download Kubernetes and do what you want with it. But if you're really building enterprise apps you're going to need support. And that's where OpenShift comes in. And there's not much data on this but we did find this chart from AMDA which show was the container software market, whatever that really is. And Red Hat has got 50% of it. This is revenue. And, you know, we know the muscle of IBM is behind OpenShift. So there's really not hard to believe. Now we've got some other data points that show how Kubernetes is becoming less visible and more embedded under of the hood. If you will, as this chart shows this is data from CNCF's annual survey they had 1800 respondents here, and the data showed that 79% of respondents use certified Kubernetes hosted platforms. Amazon elastic container service for Kubernetes was the most prominent 39% followed by Azure Kubernetes service at 23% in Azure AKS engine at 17%. With Google's GKE, Google Kubernetes engine behind those three. Now. You have to ask, okay, Google. Google's management Initially they had concerns. You know, why are we open sourcing such a key technology? And the premise was, it would level the playing field. And for sure it has, but you have to ask has it driven the monetization Google was after? And I would've to say no, it probably didn't. But think about where Google would've been. If it hadn't open source Kubernetes how relevant would it be in the cloud discussion. Despite its distant third position behind AWS and Microsoft or even fourth, if you include Alibaba without Kubernetes Google probably would be much less prominent or possibly even irrelevant in cloud, enterprise cloud. Okay. Let's wrap up with some comments on the state of Kubernetes and maybe a thought or two about, you know, where we're headed. So look, no shocker Kubernetes for all its improbable beginning has gone mainstream in the past year or so. We're seeing much more maturity and support for state full workloads and big ecosystem support with respect to better security and continued simplification. But you know, it's still pretty complex. It's getting better, but it's not VMware level of maturity. For example, of course. Now adoption has always been strong for Kubernetes, for cloud native companies who start with containers on day one, but we're seeing many more. IT organizations adopting Kubernetes as it matures. It's interesting, you know, Docker set out to be the system of the cloud and Kubernetes has really kind of become that. Docker desktop is where Docker's action really is. That's where Docker is thriving. It sold off Docker swarm to Mirantis has made some tweaks. Docker has made some tweaks to its licensing model to be able to continue to evolve its its business. To hear more about that at DockerCon. And as we said, years ago we expected Kubernetes to become less visible Stu Miniman and I talked about this in one of our predictions post and really become more embedded into other platforms. And that's exactly what's happening here but it's still complicated. Remember, remember the... Go back to the early and mid cycle of VMware understanding things like application performance you needed folks in lab coats to really remediate problems and dig in and peel the onion and scale the system you know, and in some ways you're seeing that dynamic repeated with Kubernetes, security performance scale recovery, when something goes wrong all are made more difficult by the rapid pace at which the ecosystem is evolving Kubernetes. But it's definitely headed in the right direction. So what's next for Kubernetes we would expect further simplification and you're going to see more abstractions. We live in this world of almost perpetual abstractions. Now, as Kubernetes improves support from multi cluster it will be begin to treat those clusters as a unified group. So kind of abstracting multiple clusters and treating them as, as one to be managed together. And this is going to create a lot of ecosystem focus on scaling globally. Okay, once you do that, you're going to have to worry about latency and then you're going to have to keep pace with security as you expand the, the threat area. And then of course recovery what happens when something goes wrong, more complexity, the harder it is to recover and that's going to require new services to share resources across clusters. So look for that. You also should expect more automation. It's going to be driven by the host cloud providers as Kubernetes supports more state full applications and begins to extend its cluster management. Cloud providers will inject as much automation as possible into the system. Now and finally, as these capabilities mature we would expect to see better support for data intensive workloads like, AI and Machine learning and inference. Schedule with these workloads becomes harder because they're so resource intensive and performance management becomes more complex. So that's going to have to evolve. I mean, frankly, many of the things that Kubernetes team way back when, you know they back burn it early on, for example, you saw in Docker swarm or Mesos they're going to start to enter the scene now with Kubernetes as they start to sort of prioritize some of those more complex functions. Now, the last thing I'll ask you to think about is what's next beyond Kubernetes, you know this isn't it right with serverless and IOT in the edge and new data, heavy workloads there's something that's going to disrupt Kubernetes. So in that, by the way, in that CNCF survey nearly 40% of respondents were using serverless and that's going to keep growing. So how is that going to change the development model? You know, Andy Jassy once famously said that if they had to start over with Amazon retail, they'd start with serverless. So let's keep an eye on the horizon to see what's coming next. All right, that's it for now. I want to thank my colleagues, Stephanie Chan who helped research this week's topics and Alex Myerson on the production team, who also manages the breaking analysis podcast, Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on socials, so thanks to all of you. Remember these episodes, they're all available as podcasts wherever you listen, just search breaking analysis podcast. Don't forget to check out ETR website @etr.ai. We'll also publish. We publish a full report every week on wikibon.com and Silicon angle.com. You can get in touch with me, email me directly david.villane@Siliconangle.com or DM me at D Vollante. You can comment on our LinkedIn post. This is Dave Vollante for theCUBE insights powered by ETR. Have a great week, everybody. Thanks for watching. Stay safe, be well. And we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

hey everyone this is thecube's live coverage from los angeles of kubecon and cloud native con north america 21 lisa martin with dave nicholson we're going to be talking with the founder and ceo next of cloudnatics rohit seth rohit welcome to the program thank you very much lisa pleasure to meet you good to meet you too welcome so tell the the audience about cloudnatics what you guys do when you were founded and what was the gap in the market that you saw that said we need a solution so just to start uh cloud9x was started in 2019 by me and the reason for starting cloud netex was as i was starting to look at the cloud adoption and how enterprises are kind of almost blindly jumping on this cloud bandwagon i started reading what are the key challenges the market is facing and it started resonating with what i saw in google 15 years before when i joined google the first thing i noticed was of course the scale would just overwhelm anyone but at the same time how good they are utilized at that scale was the key that i was starting to look for and over the next couple of months i did all the scripting and such with my teams and found out that lower teens is the utilization of their computers servers and uh lower utilization means if you're spending a billion dollars you're basically wasting the major portion of that and a tech savvy company like google if that's a state of affair you can imagine what would be happening in other companies so in any case we actually now started work at that time started working on a technology so that more groups more business units could share the same machine in a efficient fashion and that's what led to the invention of containers over the next six years we rolled out containers across the whole google fleet the utilization went up at least three times right fast forward 15 years and you start reading 125 billion dollars are spent on a cloud and 60 billion dollars of waste someone would say 90 billion dollars a waste you know what i don't care whether 60 or 90 billion is a very large number and if tech savvy company google couldn't fix it on its own i bet you it it's not an easy problem for enterprises to fix it so we i started talking to several executives in the valley about is this problem for real or not the worst thing that i found was not only they didn't know how bad the problem was they actually didn't have any means to find out how bad the problem could be right one cfo just ran like headless chicken for about two months to figure out okay i know i'm spending this much but where is that spend going so i started kind of trading those waters and i started saying okay visibility is the first thing that we need to provide to the end customer saying that listen it doesn't need to be rocket science for you to figure out how much is your marketing spending how much your different business units so the first line of action is basically give them the visibility that they need to make the educated business decisions about how good or how bad they are doing their operations once they have the visibility the next thing is what to do if there is a waste there are a thousand different type of vms on aws alone people talk about complexity on multi-cloud hybrid cloud and that's all right but even on a single cloud you have thousand vms the heterogeneity of the vms with dynamic pricing that changes every so often is a killer and so and so rohit when you talk about driving levels of efficiency you're not just you're not just talking about abstraction versus bare metal utilization you're talking about even in environments that have used sort of traditional virtualization yes okay absolutely i think all clouds run in vms but within vms sometimes you have containers sometimes you don't have containers if you don't have containers there is no way for you to securely have a protagonist and antagonist job running on the same machines so containers basically came to the world just so that different applications could share the same resources in a meaningful fashion we are basically extending that landscape to to the enterprises so that that utilization benefit exists for everyone right so first of first order business for cloud natick is basically provide them the visibility on how well or bad they are doing the second is to give them the recommendation if you are not doing well what to do about it to do well and we can actually slice and dice the data based on what is important for you okay we don't tell you that these are the dimensions that you should be looking at of course we have our recommendations but we actually want you to figure out basically do you want to look at your marketing organization or your engineering organization or your product organization to see where they are spending money and you can slice and match that data according and we'll give you recommendations for those organizations but now you have the visibility now you have the recommendations but then what right if you ask a cubernities administrator to go and apply those recommendations i bet you the moment you have more than five cluster which is a kind of a very ordinary thing it'll take at least two hours just to figure out how to go from where you are to be able to log in and to be able to apply those recommendations and then changing back the ci cd pipelines and asking your developers to be cognizant about your resources next time is a month-long ordeal no one follows it that's why those recommendations falls on deaf ears most of the time what we do is we give you the choice you want to apply those recommendations manually or you can put the whole system on autopilot in which case once you have enough confidence in cloud native platform we will actually apply those recommendations for you dynamically on the fly as your workloads are increasing or decreasing in utilization and where are your customer conversations happening you mentioned the cfl you mentioned the billions in cloud waste where do you start having these conversations within an organization because clearly you mentioned marketing services you can give them that visibility across the organization who are you talking to within these customers so we start with mostly the cios ctos vp of engineering but it's very interesting we say it's a waste and i think the waste is most more of an effect than a cause the real cause is the complexity and who is having the complexity is the devops and the developers so in 99 of our customer interactions we basically start from cios and ctos but very soon we have these conversations over a week with developers and devops leads also sitting in the room saying that but this is a challenge on why i cannot do this so what we have done is to address the real cause and waste aspect of cloud computing we have we have what we call the management console through which we reduce the complexity of kubernetes operations themselves so think about how you can log into a crashing pod within two minutes rather than two hours right and this is where cloud native start differentiating from the rest of the competition out there because we provide you not only or do this recommendation do this right sizing of vm here or there but this is how you structurally fix the issue going forward right i'm not going to tell you that your containers are not going to crash loop their failures are regular part of distributed systems how you deal with them how you debug them and how you get it back up and running is a core integral part of how businesses get run that's what we provide in cloud natives platform a lot of this learning that we have is actually coming from our experience in hyperscalers we have a chief architect who is also from google he was a dl of a technology called borg and then we have sonic who was the head of products at mesosphere before so we understand what it takes for an enterprise who's primarily coming from on-prem or even the companies that are starting from cloud to scale in cloud often you hear this trillion dollar paradoxes that hey you're stupid if you don't start from cloud and you're stupid if you scale at cloud we are saying that if you're really careful about how you function on cloud it has a value prop that can actually take you to the web scalar heights without even blinking twice can you share an example of one of your favorite customer stories absolutely even by industry only where you've really shown them tremendous value in savings absolutely so a couple of discussions that happened that led like oh but we are we have already spent a team of four people trying to optimize our operations over the last year and we said that's fine uh you know what our onboarding exercise takes only 20 minutes right let's do the onboarding in about a week we will tell you if we could save you any money or not and put your best devops on this pov prove a value exercise to see if it actually help their daily life in terms of operations or not this particular customer only has 30 clusters so it's not very small but it's not very big in terms of what we are seeing in the market first thing the maximum benefit or the cost optimization that they could do over the past year using some of the tools and using their own top-class engineering shots were about seven to ten percent within a week we told them 38 without even having those engineers spend more than two hours in that week we gave them the recommendations right another two weeks because they did not want to put it on autopilot just because it's a new platform in production within next two hours they were able to apply i think at least close to 16 recommendations to their platform to get that 37 improvement in cost what are some examples of of recommendations um obviously you don't want to reveal too much of the secret sauce behind the scene but but but you know what are some what are some classic recommendations that are made so some of them could be as low-hanging fruit as or you have not right sized your vms right this is what i call a lot of companies you would find that oh you have not right side but for us that's the lowest hanging code you go in and you can tell them that whether you have right size that thing or not but in kubernetes in particular if you really look at how auto scaling up and how auto scaling down happens and particularly when you get a global federated view of the number of losses that's where our secret sources start coming and that's where we know how to load balance and how to scale vertically up or how to scale horizontally within the cluster right those kind of optimization we have not seen anywhere in the market so far and that's where the most of the value prop that our customers are seeing kind of comes out and it doesn't take uh too much time i think within a week we have enough data to to say that this service that has thousands of containers could benefit by about this much and just to kind of give you i wouldn't be able to go into the specific dollar numbers here but we are talking in at least a 5 million ish kind of a range of a spend for this cluster and think about it 37 of that if we could save that that kind of money is a real money that not only helps you save your bottom line but at that level you're actually impacting your top line of the business as well sure right that's our uh value crop that we are going to go in and completely automate you're not going to look for devops that don't exist anymore to hire one of the key challenges i'm pretty sure that you must have already heard 86 percent of businesses are not able to hire the devops and they want to hire 86 percent what happens when you don't have that devops that you want to have your existing devops want to move as fast cutting corners sometimes not because they don't know anywhere but just because there's so much pressure to do so much more they don't scale when things become brittle that's when um the fragility of the system comes up and when the demand goes up that's when the systems break but you're not prepared for that breakage just because you have not really done the all the things that you would have done if you had all the time that you needed to do the right thing it sounds like some of the microservices that are in containers that are that run the convention center here have just crashed i think it's gone hopefully the background noise didn't get picked up too much yeah but you're the so the the time to value the roi that you're able to deliver to customers is significant yes you talked about that great customer use case are there any kind of news or announcements anything that you want to kind of share here that folks can can be like looking forward to without the index absolutely so two things even though this is kubecon and everyone is focused on kubernetes kubernetes is still only about three to five percent of enterprise market okay we differentiate ourselves by saying that it doesn't matter whether you're running kubernetes or you're in running legacy vms we will come on board in your environment without you making a single line of change in less than 20 minutes and either we give you the value prop in one week or we don't all right that's number one number two we have a webinar coming on november 3rd uh please go to cloudnetix.com and subscribe or sign up for that webinar sonic and i will be presenting that webinar giving you the value proposition going through some use cases that oh we have seen with our customers so far so that we can actually educate the broader audience and let them know about this beautiful platform i think that my team has built up here all right cloudnatics.com rohit thank you for joining us sharing with us what you're doing at cloud natives why you founded the company and the tremendous impact and roi that you're able to give to your customers we appreciate learning more about the technology thank you so much and i really believe that cloud is here for stay for a long long time it's a trillion dollar market out there and if we do it right i do believe we will accelerate the adoption of cloud even further than what we have seen so far so thanks a lot lisa it's been a pleasure nice to meet you it's a pleasure we want to thank you for watching for dave nicholson lisa martin coming to you live from los angeles we are at kubecon cloudnativecon north america 21. dave and i will be right back with our next guest thank you you

(bright upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome back to the DockerCon 2021 virtual coverage. I'm John Furrie host of theCUBE here in Palo Alto with a remote interview with a great guest Cuban alumni, Jim Walker VP of Product Marketing at Cockroach Labs. Jim, great to see you remotely coming into theCUBE normally we're in person, soon we'll be back in real life. Great to see you. >> Great to see you as well John, I miss you. I miss senior live and in person. So this has got to do, I guess right? >> We we had the first multi-cloud event in New York city. You guys had was I think one of the last events that was going on towards the end of the year before the pandemic hit. So a lot's happened with Cockroach Labs over the past few years, accelerated growth, funding, amazing stuff here at DockerCon containerization of the world, containers everywhere and all places hybrid, pure cloud, edge everywhere. Give us the update what's going on with Cockroach Labs and then we'll get into what's going on at DockerCon. >> Yeah Cockroach Labs, this has been a pretty fun ride. I mean, I think about two and a half years now and John it's been phenomenal as the world kind of wakes up to a distributed systems and the containerization of everything. I'm happy we're at DockerCon talking about containerization 'cause I think it has radically changed the way we think about software, but more importantly it's starting to take hold. I think a lot of people would say, oh, it's already taken hold but if you start to think about like just, these kind of modern applications that are depending on data and what does containerization mean for the database? Well, Cockroach has got a pretty good story. I mean, gosh, before Escape I think the last time I talked to you, I was at CoreOS and we were playing the whole Kubernetes game and I remember Alex Povi talking about GIFEE Google infrastructure for everyone or for everyone else I should say. And I think that's what we've seen that kind of happened with the infrastructure layer but I think that last layer of infrastructure is the database. Like I really feel like the database is that dividing line between the business logic and infrastructure. And it's really exciting to see, just massive huge customers come to Cockroach to rethink what the database means in cloud, right? What does the database mean when we moved to distributed systems and that sort of thing, and so, momentum has been building here, we are, upwards of, oh gosh, over 300 paying customers now, thousands of Cockroach customers in the wild out there but we're seeing this huge massive attraction to CockroachCloud which is a great name. Come on, Johnny, you got to say, right? And our database as a service. So getting that out there and seeing the uptake there has just been, it's been phenomenal over the past couple of years. >> Yeah and you've got to love the Cockroach name, love it, survive nuclear war and winter all that good stuff as they say, but really the reality is that it's kind of an interesting play on words because one of the trends that we've been talking about, I mean, you and I've been telling this for years with our CUBE coverage around Amazon Web Services early on was very clear about a decade ago that there wasn't going to be one database to rule the world. They're going to many, many databases. And as you started getting into these cloud native deployments at scale, use your database of choice was the developer ethos just whatever it takes to get the job done. Now you start integrating this in a horizontally scalable way with the cloud, you have now new kinds of scale, cloud scale. And it kind of changed the game on the always on availability question which is how do I get high availability? How do I keep things running? And that is the number one developer challenge whether it's infrastructure as code, whether it's security shifting left, it all comes down to making sure stuff's running at scale and secure. Talk about that. >> Yeah, absolutely and it's interesting it's been, like I said, this journey in this arc towards distributed systems and truly like delivery of what people want in the cloud, it's been a long arc and it's been a long journey and I think we're getting to the point where people, they are starting to kind of bake resilience and scale into their applications and I think that's kind of this modern approach. Look we're taking legacy databases today. There are people are kind of lift and shift, move them into the cloud, try to run them there but they aren't just built for that infrastructure like the there's a fundamentally different approach and infrastructure when it talks, when you talk about cloud it's one of the reasons why John early on your conversations with the AWS Team and what they did, it's like, yeah, how do we give resilient and ubiquitous and always on scalable kind of infrastructure people. Well, that's great for those layers but when you start to get into the software that's running on these things, it isn't lift and shift and it's not even move and improve. You can't like just take a legacy system and change one piece of it to make it kind of take advantage of the scale and the resilience and the ubiquity of the cloud, because there's very very explicit challenges. For us, it's about re-architect and rebuild. Let's tear the database down and let's rethink it and build from the ground up to be cloud native. And I think the technologies that have done that, that have kind of built from scratch, to be cloud native are the ones that are I believe, three years from now that's what we're going to be talking about. I mean, this comes back to again, like the Genesis of what we did is Google Cloud Spanner. Spanner white paper and what Google did, they didn't build, they didn't use an existing database because they needed something for a transactional relational database. They hire a bunch of really incredible engineers, right? And I got like Jeff Dean and Sanjay Ghemawat over there, like designing and doing all these cool things, they build and I think that's what we're seeing and I think that's, to me the exciting part about data in the cloud as we move forward. >> Yeah, and I think the Google cloud infrastructure, everyone I think that's the same mindset for Amazon is that I want all the scale, but I don't want to do it like over 10 years I to do it now, which I love I want to get back to in a second, but I want to ask you specifically this definition of containerization of the database. I've heard that kicked around, love the concept. I kind of understand what it means but I want you to define it for us. What does it mean when someone says containerizing the database? >> Yeah, I mean, simply put the database in container and run it and that's all that I can think that's like, maybe step one I think that's kind of lift and shift. Let's put it in a container and run it somewhere. And that's not that hard to do. I think I could do that. I mean, I haven't coded in a long time but I think I could figure that out. It's when you start to actually have multiple instances of a container, right? And that's where things get really, really tricky. Now we're talking about true distributed systems. We're talking about how do you coordinate data? How do you balance data across multiple instances of a database, right? How do you actually have fail over so that if one node goes down, a bunch of them are still available. How do you guarantee transactional consistency? You can't just have four instances of a database, all with the same information in it John without any sort of coordination, right? Like you hit one node and you hit another one in the same account which transaction wins. And so the concepts in distributed systems around there's this thing called the cap theorem, there's consistency, availability, and partition tolerance and actually understanding how these things work especially for data in distributed systems, to make sure that it's going to be consistent and available and you're going to scale those things are not simple to solve. And again, it comes back to this. I don't think you can do it with legacy database. You kind of have to re-architect and it comes down to where data is stored, it comes down to how it's replicated, it comes down to really ultimately where it's physically located. I think when you deploy a database you think about the logical model, right? You think about tables, and normalization and referential integrity. The physical location is extremely important as we kind of moved to that kind of containerized and distributed systems, especially around data. >> Well, you guys are here at DockerCon 2021 Cockroach Labs good success, love the architectural flexibility that you guys offer. And again, bringing that scale, like you mentioned it's awesome value proposition, especially if people want to just program the infrastructure. What's going on with with DockerCon specifically a lot of talk about developer productivity, a lot of talk about collaboration and trust with containers, big story around security. What's your angle here at DockerCon this year? What's the big reveal? What's the discussion? What's the top conversation? >> Yeah, I mean look at where we are a containerized database and we are an incredibly great choice for developers. For us, it's look at there's certain developer communities that are important on this planet, John, and this is one of them, right? This is I don't know a developer doesn't have that little whale up in their status bar, right? And for us, you know me man, I believe in this tech and I believe that this is something that's driven and greatly simplify our lives over the next two to three to 10 to 15 years. And for us, it's about awareness. And I think once people see Cockroach, they're like oh my God, how did I ever even think differently? And so for us, it's kind of moving in that direction. But ultimately our vision where we want to be, is we want to abstract the database to a SQL API in the cloud. We want to make it so simple that I just have this rest interface, there's end points all over the planet. And as a developer, I never have to worry about scale. I never have to worry about DR right? It's always going to be on. And most importantly, I don't have to worry about low latency access to data no matter where I'm at on the planet, right? I can give every user this kind of sub 50 millisecond access to data or sub 20 millisecond access to data. And that is the true delivery of the cloud, right? Like I think that's what the developer wants out of the cloud. They want to code against a service like, and it's got to be consumption-based and you secure and I don't want to have to pay for stuff I'm not using and that all those things. And so, for us, that's what we're building to, and interacting in this environment is critical for us because I think that's where audiences. >> I want to get your thoughts on you guys do have success with a couple of different personas and developers out there, groups, classic developers, software developers which is this show is that DockerCon full of developers KubeCon a lot of operators cool, and some dads, but mostly cloud native operations. Here's a developer shops. So you guys got to hit the developers which really care about building fast and building the scale and last with security. Architects you had success with, which is the classic, cloud architecture, which now distributed computing, we get that. But the third area I would call the kind of the role that both the architects and the developers had to take on which is being the DevOps person or then becomes the SRE in the group, right? So most startups have the DevOps team developers. They do DevOps natively and within every role. So they're the same people provisioning. But as you get larger and an enterprise, the DevOps role, whether it's in a team or group takes on this SRE site reliability engineer. This is a new dynamic that brings engineering and coding together. It's like not so much an ops person. It's much more of like an engineering developer. Why is that role so important? And we're seeing more of it in dev teams, right? Seeing an SRE person or a DevOps person inside teams, not a department. >> Yeah, look, John, we, yeah, I mean, we employ an army of SREs that manage and maintain our CockroachCloud, which is CockroachDB as a service, right? How do you deliver kind of a world-class experience for somebody to adopt a managed service a database such as ours, right? And so for us, yeah I mean, SREs are extremely important. So we have personal kind of an opinion on this but more importantly, I think, look at if you look at Cockroach and the architecture of what we built, I think Kelsey Hightower at one point said, I am going to probably mess this up but there was a tweet that he wrote. It's something like, CockroachDB is the Spanner as Kubernetes is the board. And if you think about that, I mean that's exactly what this is and we built a database that was actually amenable to the SRE, right? This is exactly what they want. They want it to scale up and down. They want it to just survive things. They want to be able to script this thing and basically script the world. They want to actually, that's how they want to manage and maintain. And so for us, I think our initial audience was definitely architects and operators and it's theCUBE con crowd and they're like, wow, this is cool. This is architected just like Kubernetes. In fact, like at etcd, which is a key piece of Kubernetes but we contribute back up to NCD our raft implementation. So there's a lot of the same tech here. What we've realized though John, with database is interesting. The architect is choosing a database sometimes but more often than not, a developer is choosing that database. And it's like they go out, they find a database, they just start building and that's what happens. So, for us, we made a very critical decision early on, this database is wire compatible with Postgres and it speaks to SQL syntax which if you look at some of the other solutions that are trying to do these things, those things are really difficult to do at the end. So like a critical decision to make sure that it's amenable so that now we can build the ORMs and all the tools that people would use and expect that of Postgres from a developer point of view, but let's simplify and automate and give the right kind of like the platform that the SREs need as well. And so for us the last year and a half is really about how do we actually build the right tooling for the developer crowd too. And we've really pushed really far in that world as well. >> Talk about the aspect of the scale of like, say startup for instance, 'cause you made this a great example borg to Kubernetes 'cause borg was Google's internal Kubernetes, like thing. So you guys have Spanner which everyone knows is a great product at Google had. You guys with almost the commercial version of that for the world. Is there, I mean, some people will say and I'll just want to challenge you on this and we'll get your thoughts. I'm not Google, I'll never be Google, I don't need that scale. Or so how do you address that point because some people say, well this might dismiss the notion of using it. How do you respond to that? >> Yeah, John, we get this all the time. Like, I'm not global. My application's not global. I don't need this. I don't need a tank, right? I just need, like, I just need to walk down the road. You know what I mean? And so, the funny thing is, even if you're in a single region and you're building a simple application, does it need to be always on does it need to be available. Can it survive the failure of a server or a rack or an AZ it doesn't have to survive the failure of a region but I tell you what, if you're successful, you're going to want to start actually deploying this thing across multiple regions. So you can survive a backhoe hit in a cable and the entire east coast going out, right? Like, and so with Cockroach, it's real easy to do that. So it's four little SQL commands and I have a database that's going to span all those regions, right? And I think that's important but more importantly, think about scale, when a developer wants to scale, typically it's like, okay, I'm going to spin up Postgres and I'm going to keep increasing my instance size. So I'm going to scale vertically until I run out of room. And then I'm going to have to start sharding this database. And when you start doing that, it adds this kind of application complexity that nobody really wants to deal with. And so forget it, just let the database deal with all that. So we find this thing extremely useful for the single developer in a very small application but the beauty thing is, if you want to go global, great just keep that in notes. Like when that application does take off and it's the next breakthrough thing, this database going to grow with you. So it's good enough to kind of start small but it's the scale fast, it'll go global if you want to, you have that option, I guess, right? >> I mean, why wouldn't you want optionality on this at all? So clearly a good point. Let me ask you a question, take me through a use case where with Cockroach, some scenario develops nicely, you can point to the visibility of the use case for the developer and then kind of how it played out and then compare that and contrast that to a scenario that doesn't go well, like where where we're at plays out well, for an example, and then if they didn't deploy it they got hung up and went sideways. >> Yeah like Cockroach was built for transactional workloads. That that's what we are like, we are optimized for the speed of light and consistent transactions. That's what we do, and we do it very well. At least I think so, right. But I think, like my favorite customer of all of ours is DoorDash and about a year ago DoorDash came to us and said, look at we have a transactional database that can't handle the right volume that we're getting and falls over. And they they'd significant challenges and if you think about DoorDash and DoorDash is business they're looking at an IPO in the summer and going through these, you can't have any issues. So like system's got to be up and running, right? And so for them, it was like we need something that's reliable. We need something that's not going to come down. We need something that's going to scale and handle burst and these sort of things and their business is big, their businesses not just let me deliver food all the time. It's deliver anything, like be that intermediary between a good and somebody's front door. That's what DoorDash wants to be. And for us, yeah, their transactions and that backend transactional system is built on Cockroach. And that's one year ago, they needed to get experienced. And once they did, they started to see that this was like very, very valuable and lots of different workloads they had. So anywhere there's any sort of transactional workload be it metadata, be it any sort of like inventory, or transaction stuff that we see in companies, that's where people are coming to us. And it's these traditional relational workloads that have been wrapped up in these transactional relational databases what built for the cloud. So I think what you're seeing is that's the other shoe to drop. We've seen this happen, you're watching Databricks, you're watching Snowflake kind of do this whole data cloud and then the analytical side John that's been around for a long time and there's that move to the cloud. That same thing that happened for OLAP, is got to happen for OLTP. Where we don't do well is when somebody thinks that we're an analytic database. That's not what we're built for, right? We're optimized for transactions and I think you're going to continue to see these two sides of the world, especially in cloud especially because I think that the way that our global systems are going to work you don't want to do analytics across multiple regions, it doesn't make sense, right? And so that's why you're going to see this, the continued kind of two markets OLAP and OLTP going on and we're just, we're squaring that OLTP side of the world. >> Yeah talking about the transaction processing side of it when you start to change a distributed architecture that goes from core edge, core on premises to edge. Edge being intelligent edge, industrial edge, whatever you're going to have more action happening. And you're seeing, Kubernetes already kind of talking about this and with the containers you got, so you've got kind of two dynamics. How does that change the nature of, and the level of volume of transactions? >> Well, it's interesting, John. I mean, if you look at something like Kubernetes it's still really difficult to do multi-region or multicloud Kubernetes, right? This is one of those things that like you start to move Kubernetes to the edge, you're still kind of managing all these different things. And I think it's not the volumes, it's the operational nightmare of that. For us, that's federate at the data layer. Like I could deploy Cockroach across multiple Kubernetes clusters today and you're going to have one single logical database running across those. In fact you can deploy Cockroach today on top of three public cloud providers, I can have nodes in AWS, I could have nodes in GCP, I could have nodes running on VMs in my data center. Any one of those nodes can service requests and it's going to look like a single logical database. Now that to me, when we talked about multicloud a year and a half ago or whatever that was John, that's an actual multicloud application and delivering data so that you don't have to actually deal with that in your application layer, right? You can do that down in the guts of the database itself. And so I think it's going to be interesting the way that these things gets consumed and the way that we think about where data lives and where our compute lives. I think that's part of what you're thinking about too. >> Yeah, so let me, well, I got you here. One of the things on my mind I think people want to maybe get clarification on is real quick while you're here. Take a minute to explain that you're seeing a CockroachDB and CockroachCloud. There are different products, you mentioned you've brought them both up. What's the difference for the developers watching? What's the difference of the two and when do I need to know the difference between the two? >> So to me, they're really one because CockroachCloud is CockroachDB as a service. It's our offering that makes it a world-class easy to consume experience of working with CockroachDB, where we take on all the hardware we take on the SRE role, we make sure it's up and running, right? You're getting connection, stringing your code against it. And I think, that's side of our world is really all about this kind of highly evolved database and delivering that as a service and you can actually use it's CockroachDB. I think it was just gets really interesting John is the next generation of what we're building. This serverless version of our database, where this is just an API in the cloud. We're going to have one instance of Cockroach with multi-tenant database in there and any developer can actually spin up on that. And to me, that gets to be a really interesting world when the world turns serverless, and we have, we're running our compute in Lambda and we're doing all these great things, right? Or we're using cloud run and Google, right? But what's the corresponding database to actually deal with that? And that to me is a fundamentally different database 'cause what is scale in the serverless world? It's autonomous, right? What scale in the current, like Cockroach world but you kind of keep adding nodes to it, you manage, you deal with that, right? What does resilience mean in a serverless world? It's just, yeah, its there all the time. What's important is latency when you get to kind of serverless like where are these things deployed? And I think to me, the interesting part of like the two sides of our world is what we're doing with serverless and kind of this and how we actually expose the core value of CockroachDB in that way. >> Yeah and I think that's one of the things that is the Nirvana or the holy grail of infrastructure as code is making it, I won't say irrelevant, but invisible if you're really dealing with a database thing, hey I'm just scaling and coding and the database stuff is just working with compute, just whatever, how that's serverless and you mentioned Lambda that's the action because you don't want the file name and deciding what the database is just having it happen is more productivity for the developers that kind of circles back to the whole productivity message for the developers. So I totally get that I think that's a great vision. The question I have for you Jim, is the big story here is developer simplicity. How you guys making it easier to just deploy. >> John is just an extension of the last part of the conversation. I don't want to developer to ever have to worry about a database. That's what Spencer and Peter and Ben have in their vision. It's how do I make the database so simple? It's simple, it's a SQL API in the cloud. Like it's a rest interface, I code against it, I run queries against it, I never have to worry about scaling the thing. I never have to worry about creating active, passive, and primary and secondary. All these like the DevOps side of it, all this operation stuff, it's just kind of done in the background dude. And if we can build it, and it's actually there now where we have it in beta, what's the role of the cost-based optimizer in this new world that we've had in databases? How are you actually ensuring data is located close to users and we're automating that so that, when John's in Australia doing a show, his data is going to follow him there. So he has fast access to that, right? And that's the kind of stuff that, we're talking about the next generation of infrastructure John, not like we're not building for today. Like, look at Cockroach Labs is not building for like 2021. Sure, do we have something that's great. We're building something that's 22 and 23 and 24, right? Like what do we need to be as a extremely productive set of engineers? And that's what we think about all day. How do we make data easy for the developer? >> Well, Jim, great to have you on VP of Product Marketing at Cockroach Labs, we've known each other for a long time. I got to ask you while I had got you here final question is, you and I have chatted about the many waves of in open source and in the computer industry, what's your take on where we are now. And I see you're looking at it from the Cockroach Labs perspective which is large scale distributed computing kind of you're on the new side of history, the right side of history, cloud native. Where are we right now? Compare and contrast for the folks watching who we're trying to understand the importance of where we are in the industry, where are we in and what's your take? >> Yeah John I feel fortunate to be in a company such as this one and the past couple that I've like been around and I feel like we are in the middle of a transformation. And it's just like the early days of this next generation. And I think we're seeing it in a lot of ways in infrastructure, for sure but we're starting to see it creep up into the application layer. And for me, it is so incredibly exciting to see the cloud was, remember when cloud was like this thing that people were like, oh boy maybe I'll do it. Now it's like, it's anything net new is going to be on cloud, right? Like we don't even think twice about it and the coming nature of cloud native and actually these technologies that are coming are going to be really interesting. I think the other piece that's really interesting John is the changing role of open source in this whole game, because I think of open source as code consumption and community, right? I think about those and then there's license of course, I think people were always there. A lot of people wrapped around the licensing. Consumption has changed, John. Back when we were talking to Dupe, consumption was like, oh, it's free, I get this thing I could just download it use it. Well consumption over the past three years, everybody wants everything as a service. And so we're ready to pay. For us, how do we bring free back to the service? And that's what we're doing. That's what I find like I am so incredibly excited to go through this kind of bringing back free beer to open source. I think that's going to be great 'cause if I can give you a database free up to five gig or 10 gig, man and it's available all over the planet has fully featured, that's coming, that's bringing our community and our code which is all open source and this consumption model back. And I'm super excited about that. >> Yeah, free beer who doesn't like free beer of course, developers love free beer and a great t-shirt too that's soft. Make sure you get that, get the soft >> You just don't want free puppy, you know what I mean? It was just like, yeah, that sounds painful. >> Well Jim, great to see you remotely. Can't wait to see you in person at the next event. And we've got the fall window coming up. We'll see some events. I think KubeCon in LA is going to be in-person re-invent a data breast for sure we'll be in person. I know that for a fact we'll be there. So we'll see you in person and congratulations on the work at Cockroach Labs. >> Thanks, John, great to see you again. All right, this keep coverage of DockerCon 2021. I'm John Furrie your host of theCUBE. Thanks for watching.

>> (upbeat music) >> production: From around the globe, it's the Cube covering Google cloud Next on-Air 20. (Upbeat music) >> Welcome back. I'm Stu Miniman and this is the CUBE coverage of Google cloud Next on Air 20. Of course, the nine week distributed all online program that Google cloud is doing and going to be talking about, of course, multi-cloud, Google of course had a big piece in multi-cloud. When they took what was originally Borg, They built Kubernetes. They made that open source and gave that to the CNCF and one of Google's partners and a leader in that space is of course, Red Hat. Happy to welcome to the program Sathish Balakrishnan, he is the Vice President of hosted platforms at Red Hat. Sathish, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you. It's great to be here with you on Google Cloud Native insights. >> Alright. So I, I tied it up, of course, you know, we talk about, you know, the hybrid multicloud and open, you know, two companies. I probably think of the most and that I've probably said the most about the open cloud are Google and Red Hat. So maybe if we could start just, uh, you hosted platforms, help us understand what that is. And, uh, what was the relationship between Red Hat and the Open Shift team and Google cloud? >> Absolutely. Great question. And I think Google has been an amazing partner for us. I think we have a lot of things going on with them upstream in the community. I think, you know, we've been with Google and the Kubernetes project since the beginning and you know, like the second biggest contributor to Kubernetes. So we have great relationships upstream. We also made Red Hat Enterprise Linux as well as Open Shift available on Google. So we have customers using both our offerings as well as our other offerings on Google cloud as well. And more recently with the hosted our offerings. You know, we actually manage Open Shift on multiple clouds. We relaunched our Open Shift dedicated offering on Google cloud back at Red Hat Summit. There's a lot of interest for the offering. We had back offered the offering in 2017 with Open Shift Three and we just relaunched this with Open Shift Four and we received considerable interest for the Google cloud Open Shift dedicated offering. >> Yeah, Sathish maybe it makes sense if we talk about kind of the maturation of open source solutions, managed services has seen really tremendous growth, something we've seen, especially if we were talking about in the cloud space. Maybe if you could just walk us through a little bit out that, you know, what are you hearing from customers? How does Red Hat think about managed solutions? >> Absolutely. Stu, I think it was a good question, right? I think, uh, as we say, the customers are looking at, you know, multiple infrastructure footprints, Be iteither the public cloud or on-prem. They'll start looking at, you know, if I go to the cloud, you know, there's this concept of, I want something to be managed. So what Open Shift is doing is in Open Shift, as you know it's Red Hat's hybrid cloud platform and with Open Shift, all the things that we strive to do is to enable the vision of the Open Hybrid Cloud. Uh, so, but Open Hybrid Cloud, it's all about choice, So we want to make sure the customers have both the managed as well as the self managed option. Uh, so if you really look at it, you know, Red Hat has multiple offerings from a managed standpoint. One as you know, we have Open Shift dedicated, which runs from AWS and Google. And, you know, we just have, as I mentioned earlier. We relaunched our Google service at Red Hat Summit back in May. So that's actually getting a lot of traction. We also have joint offerings with Azure that we announced a couple of years back and, there's a lot of interest for that offering as well as the new offering that we announced post-summit, the Amazon-Red Hat Open Shift, which basically is another native offering that we have on Amazon. If you really look at, having, having spoken about these offerings, if you really look at Red Hat's evolution as a managed service provider in the public cloud, we've been doing this since 2011. You know, that's kind of surprising for a lot of people, but you know, we've been doing Open Shift online, which is kind of a multi-tenant parcel multi-talent CaaS solution 2011. And we are one of the earliest providers of managed kubernetes, you know, along with Google Kubernetes engine GKE, we are our Open Shift dedicated offering back in 2015. So we've been doing Kubernetes managed since, Open Shift 3.1. So that's actually, you know, we have a lot of experience with management of Kubernetes and, you know, the devolution of Open Shift we've now made it available and pretty much all the clouds. So that customers have that exact same experience that they can get any one cloud across all clouds, as well as on-prem. Managed service customers now have a choice of a self managed Open Shift or completely managed Open Shift. >> Yeah. You mentioned the choice and one of the challenges we have right now is there's really the paradox of choice. If you look in the Kubernetes space, you know, there are dozens of offerings. Of course, every cloud provider has their offerings. You know, Google's got GKE, they have Anthos, uh, they, they have management tools around there. You, you talked a bit about the, you know, the experience and all the customers you have, the, you know, there's one of the fighters talks about, there's no compression algorithm for experience. So, you know, what is Red Hat Open Shift? What really differentiates in the market place from, you know, so many of the other offerings, either from the public high providers, some of the new startups, that we should know. >> Yeah. I think that's an interesting question, right? I think all Google traders start with it's complete open source and, you know, we are a complete open source company. So there is no proprietary software that we put into Open Shift. Open Shift, basically, even though it has, you know, OC command, it basically has CPR. So you can actually use native Google networks as you choose on any Google network offering that you have be it GKE, EKS or any of the other things that are out there. So that's why I think there are such things with google networks and providers and Red Hat does not believe in open provider. It completely believes in open source. We have everything that we is open source. From an it standpoint, the value prop for Red Hat has always been the value of the subscription, but we actually make sure that, you know, Google network is taken from an upstream product. It's basically completed productized and available for the enterprise to consume. But that right, when we have the managed offering, we provide a lot more benefits to it, right? The benefits are right. We actually have customer zero for Open Shift. So what does that mean? Right. We will not release Open Shift if we can't run open Shift dedicated or any of their (indistinct) out Open Shift for them is under that Open Shift. Really really well. So you won't get a software version out there. The second thing is we actually run a lot of workloads, but then Red Hat that are dependent on our managed or open shift off. So for example, our billing systems, all of those internal things that are important for Red Hat run on managed Open Shift, for example, managed Open Shift. So those are the important services for Red Hat and we have to make sure that those things are running really, really well. So we provide that second layer of enterprise today. Then having put Open Shift online, out that in public. We have 4 million applications and a million developers that use them. So that means, I've been putting it out there in the internet and, you know, there's security hosts that are constantly being booked that are being plugged in. So that's another benefit that you get from having a product that's a managed service, but it also is something that enterprises can now use it. From an Open Shift standpoint, the real difference is we add a lot of other things on top of google network without compromising the google network safety. That basically helps customers not have to worry about how they're going to get the CIC pipeline or how they have to do a bunch of in Cobra Net as an outside as the inside. Then you have technologies like Store Street Metrics kind of really help customers not to obstruct the way the containerization led from that. So those are some of the benefits that we provide with Open Shift. >> Yeah. So, so, so Sathish, as it's said, there's lots of options when it comes to Kubernetes, even from a Red Hat offering, you've got different competing models there. If I look inside your portfolio, if it's something that I want to put on my infrastructure, if I haven't read the Open Shift container platform, is that significantly different from the managed platform. Maybe give us a little compare contrast, you know. What do I have to do as a customer? Is the code base the same? Can I do, you know, hybrid environments between them and you know, what does that mean? >> It's a smart questions. It's a really, really good question that you asked. So we actually, you know, as I've said, we add a lot of things on top of google network to make it really fast, but do you want to use the cast, you can use the desktop. So one of the things we've found, but you know, what we've done with our managed offering is we actually take Open Shift container platform and we manage that. So we make sure that you get like a completely managed source, you know. They'll be managed, the patching of the worker nodes and other things, which is, again, another difference that we have with the native Cobra Net of services. We actually give plush that admin functionality to customers that basically allows them to choose all the options that they need from an Open Shift container platform. So from a core base, it's exactly the same thing. The only thing is, it's a little bit opinionated. It to start off when we deploy the cluster for the customer and then the customer, if they want, they can choose how to customize it. So what this really does is it takes away any of the challenges the customer may have with like how to install and provision a cluster, which we've already simplified a lot of the open shift, but with the managed the Open Shift, it's actually just a click of it. >> Great. Sathish Well, I've got the trillion dollar question for you. One of the things we've been looking at for years of course, is, you know, what do I keep in my data center? What do I move to the cloud? How do I modernize it? We understand it's a complex and nuanced solution, but you talk to a lot of customers. So I, you know, here in 2020, what's the trends? What are some of the pieces that you're seeing some change and movement that, you know, might not have been the case a year ago? >> I think, you know, this is an interesting question and it's an evolving question, right? And it's something that if you ask like 10 people you'll get real answers, but I'm trying to generalize what I've seen just from all the customer conversations I've been involved. I think one thing is very clear, right? I think that the world is right as much as anybody may want to say that I'm going to go to a single cloud or I'm going to just be on prem. It is inevitable that you're going to basically end up with multiple infrastructure footprint. It's either multicloud or it's on Prem versus a single cloud or on prem versus multiple cloud. So the main thing is that, we've been noticing as, what customers are saying in a whole. How do I make sure that my developers are not confused by all these difference than one? How do I give them a consistent way to develop and build their applications? Not really worry about, what is the infrastructure. What is the footprint that they're actually servicing? So that's kind of really, really important. And in terms of, you know, things that, you know, we've seen customers, you know, I think you always start with compliance requirements and data regulations. Back there you got to figure it out. What compliance do I need? And as the infrastructure or the platform that I'm going to go to meet the compliance requirements that I have, and what are the data regulations? You know, what is the data I'm going to be setting? Is it going to meet the data submitted rules that my country or my geo has? I got to make sure I worry about that. And then I got to figure out if I'm going to basically more to the cloud from the data center or from one cloud to another cloud. I might just be doing a lift or shift. Am I doing a transformation? What is it that I really worry about? In addition to the transformation, they got to figure it out, or I need to do that. Do I not need to do that? And then, you know, we've got to figure out what your data going to set? What your database going to look in? And do you need to connect to some legacy system that you have on prem? Or how do you go? How do you have to figure that out and give them all of these complexities? This is really, really common for any large enterprise that has like an enterprise ID for that multi-cloud. That's basically in multiple geographies, servicing millions of customers. So that has a lot of experience doing all these things. We have open innovation labs, which are really, really awesome experience for customers. Whether they take a small project, they figured out how to change things. Not only learn how to change things from a technology standpoint, but also learn how to culturally change things, because a lot of these things. So it's not just moving from one infrastructure to another, but also learning how to do things differently. Then we have things like the container adoption programmer, which is like, how do you take a big legacy monolith application? How do you containerize it? How do you make it micro services? How do you make sure that you're leveraging the real benefits that you're going to get out of moving to the cloud or moving to a container platform? And then we have a bunch of other things like, how do you get started with Open Shift and all of that? So we've had a lot of experience with like our 2,400 plus customers doing this kind of really heavy workload migration and lifting. So the customers really get the benefits that they see out of Open Shift. >> Yeah. So Sathish, if I think about Google, specifically talking about Google cloud, one of the main reasons we hear customers using Google is to have access to the data services. They have the AI services they have. So how does that tie into what we were just talking about? If I, if I use Open Shift and you know. I'm living in Google cloud, can, can I access all of those cloud native services? Are there any nuances things I need to think about to be able to really unleash that innovation of the platform that I'm tying into? >> Yeah, absolutely not. Right. I think it's a great question. And I think customers are always wondering about. Hey, if I use Open Shift, am I going to be locked out of using the cloud services? And if anything run out as antilock. We want to make sure that you can use the best services that you need for your enterprise, like the strategy as well as for applications. So with that, right. And we've developed the operator framework, which I think Google has been a very early supporter of. They've built a lot of operators around their services. So you can develop those operators to monitor the life cycle of these services, right from Open Shift. So you can actually connect to an AI service if you want. That's absolutely fine. You can connect the database services as well. And you can leverage all of those things while your application runs on Open Shift from Google cloud. Also I think that done us right. We recognize that, when you're talking about the open hybrid cloud, you got to make sure that customers can actually leverage services that are the same across different clouds. So when you can actually leverage the Google services from On Prem as well, if you choose to have localized services. We have a large catalog of operators that we have in our operator hub, as well as in the Red Hat marketplace that you can actually go and leverage from third party, third party ISV, so that you're basically having the same consistent experience if you choose to. But based on the consistent experience, that's not tied to a cloud. You can do that as well. But we would like for customers to use any service that they want, right from Open Shift without any restrictions. >> Yeah. One of the other things we've heard a lot from Google over the last year or so has been, you know, just helping customers, especially for those mission, critical business, critical applications, things like SAP. You talked a bit about databases. What advice would you give customers these days? They're, they're looking at, you know, increasing or moving forward in their cloud journeys. >> I think it sounds as an interesting question because I think customers really have to look at, you know, what is the ID and technology strategy? What are the different initiatives to have? Is it digital transformation? Is it cloud native development? Is it just containerization or they have an overarching theme over? They've got to really figure that out and I'm sure they're looking at it. They know which one is the higher priority when all of them are interrelated and in some ways. They also got to figure out how they going to expand to new business. Because I think as we said, right, ID is basically what is driving personal software is eating the load. Software services are editing them. So you got to figure out, what are your business needs? Do you need to be more agile? Do you need to enter new businesses? You know, those are kind of important things. For example, BMW is a great example, they use Open Shift container platform as well as they use Open Shift dedicated, you know. They are like a hundred hundred plus year old car, guess, you know what they're trying to do. They're actually now becoming connected car infrastructure. That's the main thing that they're trying to build so that they can actually service the cars in any job. So in one shoe, they came from a car manufacturing company to now focus on being a SAS, an Edge and IOT company. If you really look at the cars as like the internet of things on an edge computer and what does that use case require? That use case cannot anymore have just one data center in Munich, they have to basically build a global platform of data centers or they can really easily go to the cloud. And then they need to make sure that that application double close when they're starting to run on multiple clouds, multiple geographies, they have the same abstraction layer so that they can actually apply things fast. Develop fast. They don't have to worry about the infrastructure frequently. And that's basically why they started using Open Shift. And don't know why they're big supporters of Open Shift. And then I think it's the right mission for their use. So I think it really depends on, you know, what the customer is looking for, but irrespective of what they're looking for, I think Open Shift nicely fits in because what it does, is it provides you that commonality across all infrastructure footprints. It gives you all the productivity gains and it allows you to connect to any service that you want anywhere because we are agnostic to that and as well as we bring a whole lot of services from Red Hat marketplace so you can actually leverage your status. >> Well, Sathish Balakrishnan, thank you so much for the updates. Great to hear about the progress you've got with your customers. And thank you for joining us on the Google cloud Next On Air Event. >> Thank you Stu. It's been great talking to you and look forward to seeing you in person one day. >> Alright. I'm Stu Miniman. And thank you as always for watching the Cube. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

>>From around the globe covering Google cloud next. >>Hi, I'm Stu middleman and this is the cube coverage of Google cloud. Next, happy to welcome back to the program. One of our cube alumni, Clayton Coleman, he's the architect for Kubernetes and OpenShift with red hat Clayton. Thanks for joining us again. Great to see you. Good to see you. All right. So of course, one of the challenges in 2020 is we love to be able to get unity together. And while we can't do it physically, we do get to do it through all of the virtual events and online forum. Of course, you know, we had the cubit red hat summit cube con, uh, for the European show and now Google cloud. So, you know, give us kind of your, your state of the state 2020 Kubernetes. Of course it was Google, uh, taking the technology from Borg, a few people working on it, and, you know, just that this project that has just had massive impact on it. So, you know, where are with the community in Kubernetes today? >>So, uh, you know, 2020 has been a crazy year for a lot of folks. Um, a lot of what I've been spending my time on is, um, you know, taking feedback from people who, you know, in this time of, you know, change and concern and worry and huge shift to the cloud, um, working with them to make sure that we have a really good, um, you know, foundation in Kubernetes and that the ecosystem is healthy and the things are moving forward there. So there's a ton of exciting projects. I will say, you know, the, the pandemics had a, an impact on, um, you know, the community. And so in many places we've reacted by slowing down our schedules or focusing more on the things that people are really worried about, like quality and bugs and making sure that the stuff just works. Uh, I will say this year has been a really interesting one and open source. >>There's been much more focus, I think, on how we start to tie this stuff together. Um, and new use cases and new challenges coming into, um, what maybe, you know, the original Kubernetes was very focused on helping you bring stuff together, bring your applications together and giving you common abstractions for working with them. Um, we went through a phase where we made it easy to extend Kubernetes, which brought a whole bunch of new abstractions. And, and I think now we're starting to see the challenges and the needs of organizations and companies and individuals that are getting out of, um, not just in Kubernetes, but across multiple locations across placement edge has been huge in the last few years. And so the projects in and around Kubernetes are kind of reacting to that. They're starting to, um, bridge, um, many of these, um, you know, disparate locations, different clouds, multicloud hybrid cloud, um, connecting enterprises to data centers are connecting data centers to the cloud, helping workloads be a little bit more portable in of themselves, but helping workloads move. >>And then I think, you know, we're, we're really starting to ask those next big questions about what comes, what comes next for making applications really come alive in the cloud, um, where you're not as focused on the hardware. You're not focused on the details, which are focused on abstractions, like, um, you know, reliability and availability, not just in one cluster, but in multiple. So that's been a really exciting, uh, transition in many of the projects that I've been following. You know, certainly projects like Istio I've been dealing with, um, spanning clusters and connecting existing workloads in and, uh, you know, each step along the way, I see people sort of broaden their scope about what they want, uh, open source to help themselves. >>Yeah, I it's, it's, it's been fascinating to watch just the, the breadth of the projects that can tie in and leverage Kubernetes. Uh, you brought up edge computing and want to get into some of the future pieces, but before we do, you know, let's look at Kubernetes itself. Uh, one dot 19 is kind of where we are at. Uh, um, I already see some, some red stalking about one dot 20. Can you just talk about the, the, the base project itself contributions to it, how the upstream, uh, works and you know, how, how should customers think about, you know, their Kubernetes environment, obviously, you know, red hat with open shifts had a very strong position. You've got thousands of customers now using it, all of the cloud providers have their, uh, Kubernetes flavor, but also you partner with them. So walk us through a little bit about, you know, the open source, the project and those dynamics. >>The project is really healthy. I think we've got through a couple of big transitions over the last few years. We've moved from the original, um, you know, I was on the bootstrap steering committee trying to help the governance model. The full bootstrap committee committee has handed off responsibility to, um, new participants. There's been a lot of growth in the project governance and community governance. Um, I think there's huge credit to the folks on the steering committee today. Folks, part of contributor experience and standardizing and formalizing Kubernetes as its own thing. I think we've really moved into being a community managed project. Um, we've developed a lot of maturity around that and Kubernetes and the folks involved in helping Kubernetes be successful, have actually been able to help others within the CNCF ecosystem and other open source projects outside of CNCF be successful. So that angle is going phenomenally well. >>Uh, contribution is up. I think one of the tension points that we've talked about is, um, Kubernetes is maturing one 19, spent a lot of time on stability. And while there's definitely lots of interesting new things in a few areas like storage, and we have fee to an ingress fee too, coming up on the horizon dual stack, support's been hotly anticipated by a lot of on premise folks looking to make the transition to IPV six. I think we've been a little bit less focused on chasing features and more focused on just making sure that Kubernetes is maturing responsibly. Now that we have a really successful ecosystem of integrators and vendors and, um, you know, unification, the conformance efforts in Kubernetes. Um, there've been some great work. I happened to be involved in the, um, in the architecture conformance definition group, and there's been some amazing participation from, um, uh, from that group of people who've made real strides in growing the testing efforts so that, you know, not only can you look at, um, two different Kubernetes vendors, but you can compare them in meaningful ways. >>That's actually helped us with our test coverage and Kubernetes, there's been a lot of focus on, um, really spending time on making sure that upgrades work well, that we've reduced the flakiness of our test suites and that when a contributor comes into Kubernetes, they're not presented with a confusing, massive instructions, but they have a really clear path to make their first contribution and their next contribution. And then the one after that. So from a project maturity standpoint, I think 2020 has been a great great year for the project. And I want to see that continue. >>Yeah. One of the things we talked quite a bit about, uh, at both red hat summit, as well as, uh, the CubeCon cloud native con Europe, uh, was operators. And, you know, maybe I believe there was some updates also about how operators can work with Google cloud. So can you give us that update? >>Sure. There's been a lot of, um, there's been a lot of growth in both the client tooling and the libraries and the frameworks that make it easy to integrate with Kubernetes. Um, and those integrations are about patterns that, um, make operations teams more productive, but it takes time to develop the domain expertise in, uh, operationalizing large groups of software. So over the last year, um, know the controller runtime project, uh, which is an outgrowth of the Kubernetes Siggy lb machinery. So it's kind of a, an outshoot that's intended to standardize and make it easier to write integrations to Kubernetes that next step of, um, you know, going then pass that red hat's worked, uh, with, um, others in the community around, um, the operator SDK, uh, which unifying that project and trying to get it aligned with others in the ecosystem. Um, almost all of the cloud providers, um, have written operators. >>Google has been an early adopter of the controller and operator pattern, uh, and have continued to put time and effort into helping make the community be successful. And, um, we're really appreciative of everyone who's come together to take some of those ideas from Kubernetes to extend them into, um, whether it's running databases and service on top of Kubernetes or whether it's integrating directly with cloud. Um, most of that work or almost all of that work benefits everybody in the ecosystem. Um, I think there's some future work that we'd like to see around, um, you know, uh, folks, uh, from, um, a number of places have gone even further and tried to boil Kubernetes down into simpler mechanisms, um, that you can integrate with. So a little bit more of a, a beginner's approach or a simplification, a domain specific, uh, operator kind of idea that, um, actually really does accelerate people getting up to speed with, um, you know, building these sorts of integrations, but at the end of the day, um, one of the things that I really see is the increasing integration between the public clouds and their Kubernetes on top of those clouds through capabilities that make everybody better off. >>So whether you're using a managed service, um, you know, on a particular cloud or whether you're running, um, the elements of that managed open source software using an open source operator on top of Kubernetes, um, there's a lot of abstractions that are really productive for admins. You might use the managed service for your production instances, but you want to use, um, throw away, um, database instances for developers. Um, and there's a lot of experimentation going on. So it's almost, it's almost really difficult to say what the most interesting part is. Um, operators is really more of an enabling technology. I'm really excited to see that increasing glue that makes automation and makes, um, you know, dev ops teams, um, more productive just because they can rely increasingly on open source or managed services offerings from, you know, the large cloud providers to work well together. >>Yeah. You had mentioned that we're seeing all the other projects that are tying into Coobernetti's, we're seeing Kubernetes going into broader use cases, things like edge computing, what, from an architectural standpoint, you know, needs to be done to make sure that, uh, Kubernetes can be used, you know, meets the performance, the simplicity, um, in these various use cases. >>That's a, that's a good question. There's a lot of complexity in some areas of what you might do in a large application deployment that don't make sense in edge deployments, but you get advantages from having a reasonably consistent environment. I think one of the challenges everybody is going through is what is that reasonable consistency? What are the tools? You know, one of the challenges obviously is as we have more and more clusters, a lot of the approaches around edge involve, you know, whether it's a single cluster on a single machine and, um, you know, in a fairly beefy, but, uh, remote, uh, computer, uh, that you still need to keep in sync with your application deployment. Um, you might have a different life cycle for, uh, the types of hardware that you're rolling out, you know, whether it's regional or whether it's tied to, whether someone can go out to that particular site that you've been update the software. Sometimes it's connected, sometimes it isn't. So I think a need that is becoming really clear is there's a lot of abstractions missing above Coopernetties. Uh, and everyone's approaching this differently. We've got a get ops and centralized config management. Um, we have, uh, architectures where, you know, you, you boot up and you go check some remote cloud location for what you should be running. Um, I think there's some, some productive obstructions that are >>That, or haven't been, um, >>It haven't been explored sufficiently yet that over the next couple of years, how do you treat a whole bunch of clusters as a pool of compute where you're not really focused on the details of where a cluster is, or how can you define applications that can easily move from your data center out to the edge or back up to the cloud, but get those benefits of Kubernetes, all those places. And >>That >>This is for so early, that what I see in open source and what I see with people deploying this is everyone is approaching this subtly differently, but you can start to see some of those patterns emerge where, um, you need reproducible bundles of applications, things that help can do REL, or you can do with just very simply with Kubernetes. Um, not every edge location needs, um, uh, an ingress controller or a way to move traffic onto that cluster because their job is to generate traffic and send it somewhere else. But then that puts more pressure on, well, you need those where you're feeding that data to your API APIs, whether that's a cloud or something within your something within a private data center, you need, um, enough of commonalities across those clusters and across your applications that you could reason about what's going on. So >>There's a huge amount >>Out of a space here. And I don't think it's just going to be Kubernetes. In fact, I, I want to say, I think we're starting to move to that phase where Kubernetes is just part of the platform that people are building or need to build. And what can we do to build those tools that help you stitch together computer across a lot of footprints, um, parts of applications across a lot of footprints. And there's, there's a bunch of open source projects that are trying to drive to that today. Um, projects like I guess the O and K natives, um, with the work being done with the venting in K native, and obviously the venting is a hugely, um, you know, we talk about edge, we'd almost be remiss, not talk about moving data. And you talk about moving data. Well, you want streams of data and you want to be reacted to data with compute and K native and Istio are both great examples of technologies within the QB ecosystem that are starting to broaden, um, you know, outside of the, well, this is just about one cube cluster to, um, we really need to stitch together a mindset of development, even if we have a reasonably consistent Kubernetes across all those footprints. >>Yeah. Well, Clayton so important. There's so many technologies out there it's becoming about that technology. And it's just a given, it's an underlying piece of it. You know, we don't talk about the internet. We don't talk, you know, as much about Linux anymore. Cause it's just in the fabric of everything we do. And it sounds like we're saying that's where we're getting with Kubernetes. Uh, I'd love to pull on that thread. You mentioned that you're hearing some patterns starting to emerge out there. So when you're talking to enterprises, especially if you're talking 2020, uh, lots of companies, all of a sudden have to really accelerate, uh, you know, those transformational projects that they were doing so that they can move faster and keep up with the pace of change. Uh, so, you know, what should enterprise be, be working on? What feedback are you hearing from customers, but what are some of those themes that you can share and w what, what should everybody else be getting ready for that? >>The most common pattern I think, is that many people still find a need to build, uh, platforms or, um, standardization of how they do application development across fairly large footprints. Um, I think what they're missing, and this is what everyone's kind of building on their own today, that, um, is a real opportunity within the community is, uh, abstract abstractions around a location, not really about clusters or machines, but something broader than that, whether it's, um, folks who need to be resilient across clouds, and whether it's folks who are looking to bring together disparate footprints to accelerate their boot to the cloud, or to modernize their on premise stack. They're looking for abstractions that are, um, productive to say, I don't really want to worry too much about the details of clusters or machines or applications, but I'm talking about services and where they run and that I need to stitch those into. >>Um, I need to stitch those deeply into some environments, but not others. So that pattern, um, has been something that we've been exploring for a long time within the community. So the open service broker project, um, you know, has been a long running effort of trying to genericize one type of interface operators and some of the obstructions and Kubernetes for extending Kubernetes and new dimensions is another. What I'm seeing is that people are building layers on top through continuous deployment, continuous integration, building their own API is building their own services that really hide these details. I think there's a really rich opportunity within open to observe what's going on and to offer some supporting technologies that bridge clouds, bridge locations, what you deal with computed a little bit more of an abstract level, um, and really doubled down on making services run. Well, I think we're kind of ready to make the transition to say officially, it's not just about applications, which is what we've been saying for a long time. >>You know, I've got these applications and I'm moving them, but to flip it around and say, we want to be service focused and services, have a couple of characteristics, the details of where they run are more about the guarantees that you're providing for your customers. Um, we lack a lot of open source tools that make it easier to build and run services, not just to consume as dependencies or run open source software, but what are the things that make our applications more resilient in and of themselves? I think Kubernetes was a good start. Um, I really see organizations struggling with that today. You're going to have multiple locations. You're going to have, um, the need to dramatically move workloads. What are the tools that the whole ecosystem, the open source ecosystem, um, can collaborate on and help accelerate that transition? >>Well, Clayton, you teed up on my last thing. I want to ask you, you know, we're, we're here at the Google cloud show and when you talk about ecosystem, you talk about community, you know, Google and red hat, both very active participants in this community. So, you know, you, you peer you collaborate with a lot of people from Google I'm sure. So give our audience a little bit of insight as to, you know, Google's participation. What, what you've been seeing from them the last couple of years at Google has been a great partner, >>Crazy ecosystem for red hat. Um, we worked really closely with them on Istio and K native and a number of other projects. Um, I, you know, as always, um, I'm continually impressed by the ability of the folks that I've worked with from Google to really take a community focus and to concentrate on actually solving use cases. I think the, you know, there's always the desire to create drama around technology or strategy or business and open source. You know, we're all coming together to work on common goals. I really want to, um, you know, thank the folks that I've worked with at Google over the years. Who've been key participants. They've believed very strongly in enabling users. Um, you know, regardless of, um, you know, business or technology, it's about making sure that we're improving software for everyone. And one of the beauties of working on an open source project like Kubernetes is everyone can get some benefit out of it. And those are really, um, you know, the sum of all of the individual contributions is much larger than what the simple math would apply. And I think that's, um, you know, Kubernetes has been a huge success. I want to see more successes like that. Um, you know, working with Google and others in the open source ecosystem around infrastructure as a service and, you know, this broadening >>Domain of places where we can collaborate to make it easier for developers and operations teams and dev ops and sec ops to just get their jobs done. Um, you know, there's a lot more to do and I think open source is the best way to do that. All right. Well, Clayton Coleman, thank you so much for the update. It's really great to catch up. It was a pleasure. All right. Stay tuned for lots more coverage. The Google cloud next 2020 virtually I'm Stu Miniman. Thank you for watching the cube.

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE covering Kubecon and CloudNative Con brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to the Kubecon CloudNative Con here in San Diego. I'm Stu Miniman and my co-host is Justin Warren. And one of the things we always love to do is really dig in to some of the customer use cases. And joining us to do that, Andrey Rybka, who's the head of Compute Architecture and the CTO Office at Bloomberg. Andrey, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you. >> All right, so just to set the stage, last year we had your colleague Steven Bauer, came, talked about your company's been using Kubernetes for a number of years. You're a member of the CNCF as one of those end users there and you're even an award winner. So, congratulations on all the process. You've been doing if for years, so all the problems, I'm sure are already solved, so now we just have a big party, right? >> Yes, well I'm mean certainly we are at the stage where things are quite mature and there's a lot of workloads that are running Kubernetes. We run Kubernetes on-premises. Steven has an excellent data sense platform that does machine learning with GPUs and bare metal. We also have a really excellent team that runs basically Platform as a Service, generic Platform as a Service, not GPUs but effectively runs any kind of stateless app or service and that's been extremely successful and, you know there's a lot interest in that. And we also run Kubernetes in Public Cloud. So, a lot of workloads for like Bloomberg.com, actually are backed now by Kubernetes. >> Yeah, so we want to spend a bunch of time talking about the applications, the data, the services, that you've built some PaaS's there. Yes, so step us back for a second if you would, and give us the, What led to Kubernetes? And as you said, you've got your on-premises environment, you've got Public Cloud, where was that when you started and what's the role of Kubernetes and that today? >> Sure, we started back in 2015, evaluating all kinds of sort of container orchestration platforms. It's very clear that developers love containers for its portability and just the ability to have the same environments that runs kind of on-premises or on your laptop and runs on the actual deployment environment, the same thing, right? So, we looked at Mesos, Marathon, Cloud Foundry, even OpenShift before it was Kubernetes. And we, in no specific order continuously evaluate all different options and once we make a decision, we recommend to the engineering team and work in partnership with engineers. So all of those awards and everything, actually I want to say, that this is really a kudos to our engineering team. We just a small part of the puzzle. Now as far as like how we made the Kubernetes selection, it was a bit risky. We started with a pre-alpha version and you know I read the Borg paper, how Google actually did Borg. And when I sort of realized, well they're trying to do the same thing with Kubernetes. It was very clear, this is kind of, you know we're going to build on mature experience, right. So, some what it was risky but also a safe bet because you know there was some good computer science and engineering behind the product. So we started alpha version, they're consumer web groups actually were one of the first deployments of there kind of Kubernetes and they present them at the first Kubecon. It was an excellent talk on how we did Kubernetes and you know we came a long way since then. We've got sort of now, probably about 80 to 100 clusters running and you know, they run full high availability, DR -1. I would say it is one of the most reliable environments that we have, you know. We have frequently, you know infrastructure outages, hypervisors, you know, obviously hardware fails, which is normal, and we rarely see any issues and actually you know no like any major issues whatsoever. So, the things we expected out of Kubernetes, the things like reliability, elastic infrastructure, auto-scaling, the multi-tenancy it all worked out. Higher density of sort of packing the nodes, you know that's another great sort of value add that we expected but now we finally realizing that. >> So, one question I've had from a lot of customers, particularly traditional enterprises who are used to doing things and have a lot of virtual machine infrastructure. They're looking at Kubernetes but they're finding it somewhat opaque, a little bit scary. Talk us through, How did you convince the business that this was the choice that we should make and that we need to change the way that we're developing applications and deploying applications and we want to do this with Kubernetes? How did you convince them that this was going to be okay in the end? >> Yes, yes, that's a really good question. A lot of people were scared and you know they were, is this going to break things or you know is this just a shiny new thing. And there was a lot of education that had to occur. We've shown a lot of POCs now. The way we exposed Kubernetes was not just like raw Kubernetes. We actually wanted to keep it safe, so we sort of stayed away from some, like more alpha type of workloads and moved towards kind of like the more stable things. And so, we exposed it Platform as a Service. So, the developers did not actually get to necessarily like kubectl you know, apply a config and just deploy the app. We actually had a really good sort of offering where we had kind of, almost like Git-flow kind of environment where you have, you know your source control, then you have CICD pipeline and then once it goes through all those check and balances, you deploy your containers. So from that perspective, we actually hid quite a bit of things that made things a bit dangerous or potentially a little bit more complicated. And that's proven to be the right strategy because right now as far as the reliability I would say this is probably one of the most reliable environments that we have. And this is by design, you know. We basically tell the developers, by default you're supposed to run at least two replicas at least two Data Centers by default or two, you know, regions or two availability zones, and you can't change that. There's some people who are asking me like can I just deploy just in one Data Center, I'm like, I'm sorry, no. Like by default its like that. And auto-scaling on so if one Data Center goes and you need DR -1, so if you started with two minimum replicas then it auto-scales to four or whatever that will be set. So, you know, I think we've basically put a prototype of a proof of concept relatively fast. And We've got with the initial Platform as a Service, you know from zero to actual delivery in about three months. A lot of building blocks were there and we just put kind of the pieces of the puzzle together. >> All right, that does echo a lot of the discussion that was at had in the keynote today, even was about looking at making Kubernetes easier to consume, essentially by having all of these sensible defaults like you mentioned. You will have two replicas. It will run in these two different zones. And kind of removing some of that responsibility for those decisions from the developers. >> Andrey: Yes. >> How does that line up with the idea of DevOps which seems to be partly about making the developers a bit more responsible for their service and how it runs in production. It sounds like you've actually taken a lot of that effort away from them by, we've done all this work for you so you don't have to think about that anymore. >> I mean a little bit of background, we have about 5,500 engineers. So, expecting everybody to learn DevOps and Kubernetes is not realistic, right? And most developers really want to write applications and services that add business value, right? Nobody wants to really manage networking at the lower level, you know there's a lot of still complexity in this environment, right? So, you know, as far as DevOps, we've built shared kind of teams that have basically like, think of like centralized SRE teams that build the core platform components. We have a world class kind of software infrastructure group which builds those type of components. On top of the sort of, the technology infrastructure team that caters to the hardware and the virtualization infrastructure built on OpenStack. So you know, there is very much kind of a lot of common services/shared services teams that build that as a platform to developers and that is how we can scale. Because, you know, it's very hard to do that if every team is just sort of duplicating each one of those things. >> So Andrey, let's talk a little bit about your application portfolio. >> Andrey: Sure. >> Bloomberg must have thousands of applications out there. >> Andrey: Yes, yes. >> From what you were describing, is this only for kind of net new applications. If I want to use it I have to build something new, replacing something else or, or can you walk us through kind of what percentage is on this platform today and how is that migration or transition? >> And some is not net new, we actually did port quite a bit of the sort of the classic Bloomberg services that developers expect to the platform. And it's seamless to the developers. So, we've been doing quite a bit of sort of Linux migration meaning from like things like Solaris, AIX, and this platform was built purposefully to help developers to migrate their services. Now, they're not sort of lift and shift type of migrations. You can't just expect the, you know classic C++ shared memory app suddenly like jump and start being in containers, right? So there is some architectural changes, differences that had to be done. The type of applications that we see, you know, they're just sort of microservices oriented. Bloomberg has been around since 1981 and they've been doing service-oriented architecture since like early 90s. So, you know, things were already kind of in services kind of framework and mentality. And before, you know we had service matches, Bloomberg had its own kind of paradigm of service matches. So, all we do is kind of retro-fit the same concepts with new frameworks. And what we did is we brought in sort of like a new mentality of open source first. So, most new systems that we built, we look for kind of what about if you know, we look for open source components that can fit in this particular problem set. So there applications that we have right now, we have quite a bit of data services, data transformation pipelines, machine learning, you know, there's quite a bit of the machine learning as far as like the actual learning part of training, and then there is the inference part that runs quite a bit. We have quite a few of accounting services, like, I mentioned Bloomberg.com, and many sort of things that you would normally think of like accounting delivery services that run on Kubernetes. And I mean, at this point, we certainly try to be a little bit conscious about stateful services, so we don't run as much of databases and things like that. Eventually, we will get there once we prove the reliability and resiliency around the stateful set in Kubernetes. >> Yeah, do you have an estimate internal or goals as to what percentage your applications are on this platform now and a roadmap going forward? >> I mean, it's hard to say but going forward, I see majority of all services migrating to Kubernetes because for us, Kubernetes is become an essentially standardized compute fabric. You know, one thing that we've been missing, you know, a lot of open source projects deliver, you know virtualized infrastructure. But, you know, that's not quite enough, right. You need other sort of concepts to be there and Kubernetes did deliver that for us. And more importantly, it also delivered us kind of a, almost like a multi-cloud strategy, you know, kind of accidentally because, you know none of the cloud providers have any standard APIs of any source, right? Like, so even if use Terraform, that's not necessarily multi-cloud, it's just like you got to write HCO for each cloud provider. In Kubernetes, more or less, that becomes kind of a really solved problem. >> So which, what flavor of Kubernetes are you using? Do you leverage any of the services from the Public Cloud on Kubernetes? >> Yeah, I mean, excellent question. So, you know we want to leverage managed offerings as much as possible because things like patch and the security of you know, CVE's, and things like that, I want somebody to take care of that for me and harden things, and out of the box. So, the key to our multi-cloud strategy is use managed offering but based on open source software. So if you want to deploy services, deploy them on Kubernetes as much as possible. If you want to use databases, use manage database but based on the open source software, like Postgres, or MySQL. And that makes it affordable, right, to an extent, I mean, there's going to be some slight differences, but I do believe that managed is better than if I'm going to go and bootstrap VM's and manage my own control plane and the workers and things like that. >> Yeah, and it is a lot of additional work that I think organizations genuinely did try to roll their own and do everything themselves. There's a lot more understanding since the advent of cloud essentially that actually making someone else do this for what is essentially the undifferentiated heavy lifting. If you can get someone else to do that for you, >> Andrey: Absolutely >> it's a much better experience. Which is actually what you've built with the Kubernetes services for your developers. You are becoming that managed service for your app developers. I think a few enterprise organizations have tried to do that a little bit with centralized IT. They haven't quite got that service mentality there where I'm the product owner and I need to create something which my developers find is valuable to use so that they want to use it. >> This is exactly spot on. When I joined Bloomberg six years ago, one of the things we wanted to do is effectively offer a Public Cloud like services on-premises and now we're there. We actually have a lot of managed offerings whether you want Kafka as a service, queuing as a service, or you know, cache as a service, or even Kubernetes but not necessarily we want to expose Kubernetes as a service, we want to expose Platform as a Service. So, you hit the nail on the head because effectively developers want kind of the same things that they see in the Public Cloud. I want you know, function as a service, I want lambda something like this. Well, that's a type of Platform as a Service. So, you're spot on. >> Yeah, Andrey, last question I have for you. You know, you talked about the maturity of the managed offerings there, something we've seen a lot this year is the companies that, How am I going to manage across, you know, various environments? There we saw, you know, Microsoft with Azure, or VMware with Honzu, what do you think of that? Is that something that interests you or anything else in the ecosystem that you still think needs to mature to help your business? >> Sure, sure, I mean, I think that the use cases they're trying to address are definitely near and dear to my heart. Because we are trying to be multi-cloud. And in order to be truly mature multi-cloud sort of company, we need to have sort of mature kind of multi-cloud control plane. That has kind of the deployment address, ACD pipeline address than it need to address security, not just day one but day two, a load and monitoring and all of you know, if I were just to have three different portals to look at, it is very complicated, you're going to miss things. I want one pane of glass, right. So, what this company is addressing is extremely important and I see a lot of value in it. Now from my point of view, in general, what we prefer if it was an open source project that we could contribute and we could collaborate on, we still want to pay money for the support and what not, we don't want to just be free riders, right? But if it's an open source product and we can be part of it, it's not just read-only open source, that is definitely something that I would be very much interested in participating. And majority of the developers that we have are very happy to participate in open source. I think you seen some of our contributors here. We have some people contributing to Kubeflow. There's many other projects, we have quite a bit of cube projects like the case engineering with powerfulseal. If somebody wants to check it out, we've got some really interesting things. >> Andrey, really appreciate you sharing what you and your engineering teams are doing. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for all the contributions back to the community. >> Yep. >> For Justin Warren, I'm Stu Miniman back with more of our three day wall to wall coverage here at KubeCon CloudNative Con. Thank you for watching theCube. (dramatic music)

>>live from San Diego, California It's the Q covering Koopa and Cloud Native Cot brought to you by Red Cloud. Native Computing Pounding and its ecosystem March >>Welcome back. This is the cubes coverage. Fourth year of Q Khan Cloud native Khan, 2019 Here in San Diego. I am still Minutemen like co host for this afternoon is Justin Warrant and happy to welcome to the program A first time guests, but was on the keynote stage yesterday Sougou Super Marine, who is the co founder and CEO of Planet Scale and also one of the, uh, we're gonna be talking about the test which graduated, announced on the stage. They didn't put a cap and gown or roll everything out, which they did a couple of years ago. But first, thanks so much for joining us. And congratulations. Thank you. All right, so, Sougou, bring us back. You know, we're talking about a cloud native database and we'll dig into that and everything, but bring us back to what you were working on. And you know why of what we now call >>so the When we started with us, we were really not thinking of cloud native itself. for say, it was kind of a sequence of events that kind of forced with us to become cloud native long before cloud native was actually born as even the term was born. Which was when we had to move the test from YouTube on print into Google's board, which use the predecessor off Cooper natives. Um, the reason why the test is kind of one of the leading storage projects in Cloud Native was because it was probably the first project that remained open source, even though we managed to ram it with >>work. Yeah, you know what? One of things we've been talking about at the show here is you know, in the early days, you know, we were very much talking about infrastructure, but we know the reason we have infrastructure is to run applications, and one of the most important applications is databases, and I talk to customers. It's not just one database. Often they have many different databases on, and that is one of the big challenges today. So, you know, you kind of look at that landscape, help us understand how this fits into that. That overall picture. >>Yeah, so that kind of goes back in tow, Google's history and how that can influence kubernetes itself. So if you look at Google's board, most off its features are meant for running stateless application. So within Google, people who wrote applications when they wanted to store state they just called out into a service that was semi part of board but wasn't itself run by board as if you would run your application. So many of those properties were inherited by Cooper natives. So which is the reason why? Um, right from the beginning, it was hard to make storage work for cover natives on Dhe. For that reason, even a zoo recently as early this year, If you look at the tweets from Kelsey Hightower, don't just move your database into communities. You're going to regret it. People still say that, but at the same time, because we test way, we're able to figure out howto make storage work under the stringent rules that Borg had, which was mainly to support stateless applications. In other words, we actually land because, as if it was a stateless application, while still managing while still making state state will not survive this stateless behavior, which is actually why we just managed to be launched within communities as soon as it was born. Ah, but it has been a struggle for other people because they didn't have the luxury of preparing for it without even knowing. Uh so I think that more effort needs to be made on both sides, both from people who are writing storage to make them work with communities as well as kubernetes itself, trying to meet them halfway, trying to add features to help the storage developers. >>It has been a real struggle. I remember from even the very first show I came to four years ago in Seattle looking at the set. My media thing is an ex storage guy and has a backup guy was to go and look at things and say OK, this is lovely for stateless applications, you said. But riel applications have data in them and they need to maintain state. Where's the state looking at all of the group in any type of things, like there were no state full sets with another thing that has changed a lot in four years, and people have come to the party and we need to be able to manage state. But now that you we have a database like a test, isn't that just taking things to the point where I as an app developer, I can just write my stateless application and then my data can live inside a data management service like a test? So I don't actually need to deal with any of that state management problem myself. >>That's what it amounts to. Uh, the the one property of the test is that it can run both in communities and outside. So there are people who run tests on Prem and they have their own orchestration layer. So that has given some challenge where we just cannot depend on communities. You cannot call into communities a p I s o. The way we have the architect of the test is that it knows when it runs within a orchestrated environment, how to interact with it, but it doesn't assume that it exists. So >>why have you provided that functionality? Is that because customers said that I actually want to be able to run the test, But I don't wanna have to deal with kubernetes >>exactly like so not everyone has migrated to communities. It is surprising that everybody wants to migrate communities. But then many of them are saying, I don't know how many years out it is on. Then for them, we just solved a different problem, which is the problem of sheer massive scale ability on dhe for them. They want to be able to still run with us on print s. So for that reason, that is actually a small gap between communities and the test itself. On dhe, we're filling that gap with health charts in the open source on Dhe Planet Scale, which is the company that I founded has built an operator that we're also going to open source so that people can use that to launch community >>before we talk about planet scale You. No, no, no, no. Absolutely. In the keynote you had some customer stories on might might help illustrate some what we're talking about, you know, the scalability of the environment, everything. So you know, I'll let you choose that kind of a short example. You know, the slack One you know, is one that I think president in the audience there. But >>I would choose slack. Ah, Jerry's always obviously enormous, but I will choose slack and nozzle because they represent two very different but really genuine needs in the industry. Slack once not just massive scale, but they want flexibility with manipulating data on DDE. That is something that is manipulating data really, really hard. Onda. We believe that we found the secret sauce to make that work with tests, and that is the reason you saw those statements from Slack. They're so passionate and with so much conviction, that is because they were fascinated by what we could do with their data. So that is one example and slack does not run on communities. They don't run on cloud. They run on AWS, but they don't they run it like they their own claim. They have very fixed I p addresses fixed instance names, but they're on it like a cloud. Sometimes I would say they are more coordinated behavior than some applications that run on kubernetes like they treat everything as disposable. When something goes away, they don't try to recover it or anything destroyed out. Replace it with something new, which is property off cloud native behavior. And on the other hand, a company like nozzle because they're they're actually a startup on dhe. It is surprising that why would the start of one to use? Ah, something that is Mento scale. Massively. That's when we realized that the cloud native nature of it does fills a gap that currently is not filled by many people, which is I want to run everything in Cooper natives all in one. And we didn't realize until they showed us what they did with it, which is, like, completely migrate from one cloud to another. They're a super amazing. And I heard it on dhe. They did that without even telling me are telling anybody in the community because one day I talked to them. They say they are on a key s on. A few days later, I still assumed that they are Nikki s and they know of your booty. Jakey, when did you do this? Oh, we did that last month because we got some really good deal with them, super exciting, >>and that that is a surprising, exactly affected. That's surprising. It is a bit of a concern to me because we hear a lot of talk about multi cloud and the idea of applications being being mobile between different clouds. Data movement is really hot. Exactly. So the fact that someone has actually managed to do that and haven't moved from one community service across to another one is that we find that remarkable because we know it's such a hard problem. But that's one of the great things I think about kubernetes, which is possibly under appreciated, is that it's not that it makes everything easy, but it makes what What used to be hard is now >>possible. Yes, yes, yes, that is very true. Yeah, it's, um uh, like it took It took us a while to, uh, think to make this mind shit, because some of these things, even though they're like it looks, looks looks very obvious. But for the longest time, we were, you're saying, tested for massive scale ability. It's for It's what this and that and even two years ago, up sport came and said, We're going to use the tests for communities orchestration. Weird, but okay, feel free. We don't have a problem with it. And then nozzle came out, and now suddenly you see Oh, this is this is why. And this Saul's really, really difficult problem on. They all did especially hot Spot. Did a lot of work in with tests to actually make it easier. But now we see Now we see the light. >>So Sougou Planet scales the company. Help us understand Vitesse planet scale. How that fits together. What's kind of the business model for your company? >>Yeah. So, um uh, so the test was originally developed at YouTube by you, too. There was one thing That was some pressure. We were beginning to feel when we developed it. We didn't mean for anybody to use it. Really. It was open source, more for academic reasons to show that we can do these things on. But it was interesting when people started adopting it. You're adopting this system. Okay, so we'll see what we can do to help you. But after a while, when the community started growing, some of them were contributing. But definitely storage is a difficult software to write, too. It's not like a pitiful software. Any anybody can understand the cord and start writing. It was obvious that the number of people wanting to use with death and wanting peaches from it are also people that we're not really capable of. writing those features because they're really hard features, too. Right on DDE. That pressure was going and they were saying all I wish you two could do this for me. You know, YouTube is a video company. They're not in the We just did this for ourselves. There's no reason for us to spend so many person years they've left in the future for you. And that time it became obvious that we need to start a company to support this community where there's this huge growing demand, Which is kind of what motivated towards us, uh, thinking about starting planet scale and one requirement waas It cannot remain a YouTube project at that point. So which is why we work it out that way, will actually move it to see NCF. And then I ended up leaving. You do have to start planet scale with my co founder. Then >>so is just from a business standpoint, is that service is on their customers ask for things and fun that that that gets contributed upskirt stream. >>So that was initially what we thought we will do. Initially we thought it was just get out laptops and start helping people that that was our initial thinking. But what we realized was at the same time the industry has shifted towards this new business model which is to actually run everything as a service. And we realized, Oh, my God, years All we have to do is we know how to run with us. You've done it at YouTube. You help people deployed with testing various companies. You know exactly what it takes to run with us. All we have to do is take this. I'm does the service. And that's exactly what people want. Because otherwise, because of the fact that we tested this flexible, it is also extremely complex, too confident because it can run on frame. Then you have to sit all these flags. You runnin carbonate is you said all these flags. So all this has to be managed and we realized, OK, we can manage this and we know exactly how to make it work. And we actually just announced two days ago that our planet scale CNDP Cloud native database is available for people to come in use. >>Well, congratulations on the progress of the business as well as the test graduation and thank you. So much for joining us here on the Cube. Thank you. Alright for Justin Warren. I'm stupid Men. We will be back with more of our day. Two of three days. Whoa! Wall coverage here from San Diego. Thank you for watching the Cube.

>>from New York. It's the Q covering Escape. 19. >>Welcome back to the Cube coverage here in New York City for the first inaugural multi cloud conference called Escape, where in New York City was staying in New York, were not escaping from New York were in New York. It's all about multi Cloud, and we're here. Lisa Marie Nancy, developer advocate for Port Works, and Eric Conn, vice president of Products Works. Welcome back. Q. >>Thank you, John. Good to see >>you guys. So, um, whenever the first inaugural of anything, we want to get into it and find out why. Multi clouds certainly been kicked around. People have multiple clouds, but is there really multi clouding going on? So this seems to be the theme here about setting the foundation, architecture and data of the two kind of consistent themes. What shared guys take Eric, What's your take on this multi cloud trend? Yeah, >>I think it's something we've all been actively watching for a couple years, and suddenly it is becoming the thing right? So every we just had ah, customer event back in Europe last week, and every customer there is already running multi cloud. It's always something on their consideration. So there's definitely it's not just a discussion topic. It's now becoming a practical reality. So this event's been perfect because it's both the sense of what are people doing, What are they trying to achieve and also the business sense. So it's definitely something that is not necessarily mainstream, but it's becoming much more how they're thinking about building all their applications. Going forward, >>you know, you have almost two camps in the world. Want to get your thoughts on this guy's Because, like you have cloud native and people that are cloud native, they love it. They born the cloud that get it. Everything's cracking along. The developers air on Micro Service's They're agile train with their own micro service's. Then you got the hybrid I t. Trying to be hybrid developer, right? So you kind of have to markets coming together. So to me, I see multi cloud as kind of a combination of old legacy Data center types of I t with cloud native, not just ops and dead. But how about like trying to build developer teams inside enterprises? This seems to be a big trend, and multi club fits into that because now the reality is that I got azure. I got Amazon. Well, let's take a step back and think about the architecture. What's the foundation? So that to me, is more my opinion. But I want to get your thoughts and reactions that because if it's true, that means some new thinking has to come around around. What's the architecture? What are you trying to do? What's the workloads behavior outcome look like? What's the work flows? So there's a whole nother set of conversations that happened. >>I agree. I think the thing that the fight out there right now that we want to make mainstream is that it's a platform choice, and that's the best way to go forward. So it's still an active debate. But the idea could be I want to do multi club, but I'm gonna lock myself into the Cloud Service is if that's the intent or that's the design architecture pattern. You're really not gonna achieve the goals we all set out to do right, So in some ways we have to design ourselves or have the architecture that will let us achieve the business schools that were really going for and that really means from our perspective or from a port works perspective. There's a platform team. That platform team should run all the applications and do so in a multi cloud first design pattern. And so from that perspective, that's what we're doing from a data plan perspective. And that's what we do with Kubernetes etcetera. So from that idea going forward, what we're seeing is that customers do want to build a platform team, have that as the architecture pattern, and that's what we think is going to be the winning strategy. >>Thank you. Also, when you have the definition of cod you have to incorporate, just like with hybrid I t the legacy applications. And we saw that you throughout the years those crucial applications, as we call them People don't always want them to refer to his legacy. But those are crucial applications, and our customers were definitely thinking about how we're gonna run those and where is the right places it on Prem. We're seeing that a lot too. So I think when we talk about multi cloud, we also talk about what What is in your legacy? What is it? Yeah, I >>like I mean I use legacy. I think it's a great word because I think it really puts nail in the coffin of that old way because remember, if you think about some of the large enterprises, these legacy applications, they've been optimized for hardware and optimize their full stack. They've been build up from the ground up, so they're cool. They're running stuff, but it doesn't always translate to see a new platform designed point. So how do you mean Containers is great fit for their Cooper names. Obviously, you know is the answer. We you guys see that as well, but okay, I can keep that and still get this design point. So I guess what I want to ask you guys, as you guys are digging into some of the customer facing conversations, what are they talking about? The day talking about? The platform? Specifically? Certainly, on the security side, we're seeing everyone running away from buying tools to thinking about platforms. What's the conversation like on the cloud side >>way? Did a talk are multiplied for real talk at Barcelona? Q. Khan put your X three on Sudden. Andrew named it for reals of Izzy, but we really wanted to talk about multiplied in the real world. And when we said show of hands in Barcelona, who's running multi cloud? It was very, very few. And this was in, what, five months? Four months ago? Whereas maybe our customers are just really super advanced because of our 100 plus customers. At four words, we Eric is right. A lot of them are already running multi cloud or if not their plan, in the planning stage right now. So even in the last +56 months, this has become a reality. And we're big fans of communities. I don't know if you know Eric was the first product manager for Pernetti. Hey, he's too shy to say it on Dhe. So yeah, and we think, you know, and criminal justice to be the answer to making all They caught a reality right now. >>Well, I want to get back into G, K, E and Cooper. Very notable historic moment. So congratulations, But to your point about multi cloud, it's interesting because, you know, having multiple clouds means things, right? So, for instance, if I upgrade to office 3 65 and I kill my exchange server, I'm essentially running azure by their definition. If I'm building it, stack on AWS. I'm a native, this customer. Let's just say I want to do some tensorflow or play with big table or spanner on Google. Now >>we have three >>clouds now they're not. So they have work clothes, specific objectives. I am totally no problem. I see that like for the progressive customers, some legacy be to be people who like maybe they put their toe in the cloud. But anyone doing meaningful cloud probably has multiple clouds. But that's workload driven when you get into tying them together and is interesting. And I think that's where I think you guys have a great opportunity in this community because if open source convene the gateway to minimize the lock in and when I say lock and I mean like locking them propriety respect if his value their great use it. But if I want to move my data out of the Amazon, >>you brought up so many good points. So let me go through a few and Lisa jumping. I feel like locking. People don't wanna be locked >>in at the infrastructure level. So, like you said, if >>there's value at the higher levels of Stack, and it helps me do my business faster. That's an okay thing to exchange, but it is just locked in and it's not doing anything. They're that's not equal exchange, right, So there's definitely a move from infrastructure up the platform. So locking in >>infrastructure is what people are trying to move away from. >>From what we see from the perspective of legacy, there is a lot of things happening in industry that's pretty exciting of how legacy will also start to running containers. And I'm sure you've seen that. But containers being the basis you could run a BM as well. And so that will mean a lot for in terms of how V EMS can start >>to be matched by orchestrators like kubernetes. So that is another movement for legacy, and I wanted to acknowledge that point >>now, in terms of the patterns, there are definitely applications, like a hybrid pattern where connect the car has to upload all its data once it docks into its location and move it to the data center. So there are patterns where the workflow does move the ups are the application data between on Prem into a public cloud, for instance, and then coming back from that your trip with Lisa. There is also examples where regulations require companies to enterprise is to be able to move to another cloud in a reasonable time frame. So there's definitely a notion of Multi Cloud is both an architectural design pattern. But it's also a sourcing strategy, and that sourcing strategy is more regulation type o. R. In terms of not being locked in. And that's where I'm saying it's all those things. I'd >>love to get your thoughts on this because I like where you're going with this because it kind of takes it to a level of okay, standardization, kubernetes nights, containers, everyone knows what that is. But then you start talking about a P I gateways, for instance, right? So if I'm a car and I have five different gateways on my device, I ot devices or I have multiple vendors dealing with control playing data that could be problematic. I gotta do something like that. So I'm starting. Envision them? I just made that news case up, but my point is is that you need some standards. So on the a p I side was seeing some trends there. One saying, Okay, here's my stuff. I'll just pass parameters with FBI State and stateless are two dynamics. What do you make of that? What, What? What has to happen next to get to that next level of happiness and goodness? Because Bernays, who's got it, got it there, >>right? I feel that next level. I feel like in Lisa, Please jump. And I feel like from automation perspective, Kubernetes has done that from a P I gateway. And what has to happen next. There's still a lot of easy use that isn't solved right. There's probably tons of opportunities out there to build a much better user experience, both from the operations point of view and from what I'm trying to do is an intense because what people aren't gonna automate right now is the intent. They automate a lot of the infrastructure manual tasks, and that's goodness. But from how I docked my application, how the application did it gets moved. We're still at the point of making policy driven, easy to use, and I think there's a lot of opportunities for everyone to get better there. That's like low priority loving fruitcake manual stuff >>and communities was really good at the local food. That's a really use case that you brought up. Really. People were looking at the data now and when you're talking about persistent mean kun is his great for stateless, but for state full really crucial data. So that's where we really come in. And a number of other companies in the cloud native storage ecosystem come in and have really fought through this problem and that data management problem. That's where this platform that Aaron was talking to that >>state problem. Talk about your company. I want to go back to to, um, Google Days. Um, many war stories around kubernetes will have the same fate as map reduce. Yeah, the debates internally at Google. What do we do with it? You guys made the good call. Congratulations on doing that. What was it like to be early on? Because you already had large scale. You were already had. Borg already had all these things in place. Um, it wasn't like there was what was, >>Well, a few things l say one is It was intense, right? It was intense in the sense that amazing amount of intelligence amazing amount of intent, and right back then a lot of things were still undecided, right? We're still looking at how containers or package we're still looking at how infrastructure kit run and a lot of service is were still being rolled out. So what it really meant is howto build something that people want to build, something that people want to run with you and how to build an ecosystem community. A lot of that the community got was done very well, right? You have to give credit to things like the Sig. A lot of things like how people like advocates like Lisa had gone out and made it part of what they're doing. And that's important, right? Every ecosystem needs to have those advocates, and that's what's going well, a cz ah flip side. I think there's a lot of things where way always look back, in which we could have done a few things differently. But that's a different story for different. Today >>I will come back in the studio Palop of that. I gotta ask you now that you're outside. Google was a culture shock. Oh my God! People actually provisioning software provisioning data center culture shock when there's a little >>bit of culture shock. One thing is, and the funny thing is coming full circle in communities now, is that the idea of an application? Right? The idea of what is an application eyes, something that feels very comfortable to a lot of legacy traditional. I wanna use traditional applications, but the moment you're you've spent so much time incriminates and you say, What's the application? It became a very hard thing, and I used to have a lot of academic debates. Where is saying there is no application? It's It's a soup of resources and such. So that was a hard thing. But funny thing is covered, as is now coming out with definitions around application, and Microsoft announced a few things in that area to so there are things that are coming full circle, but that just shows how the movement has changed and how things are becoming in some ways meeting each other halfway. >>Talk about the company, what you guys are doing. Take a moment. Explain in context to multi cloud. We're here. Port works. What's the platform? It's a product. What's the value proposition? What's the state of the company. >>So the companies? Uh well, well, it's grown from early days when Lisa and I joined where we're probably a handful now. We're in four or five cities. Geography ease over 100 people over 150 customers and there. It's been a lot of enterprises that are saying, like, How do I take this pattern of doing containers and micro service is And how do I run it with my mission? Critical business crinkle workloads. And at that point, there is no mission critical business critical workload that isn't stable so suddenly they're trying to say, How do I run These applications and containers and data have different life cycles. So what they're really looking for is a data plane that works with the control planes and how controlled planes are changing the behavior. So a lot of our technology and a lot of our product innovation has been around both the data plane but a storage control plane that integrates with a computer controlled plane. So I know we like to talk about one control plane. There's actually multiple control planes, and you mentioned security, right? If I look at how applications are running way after now securely access for applications, and it's no longer have access to the data. Before I get to use it, you have to now start to do things like J W. T. Or much higher level bearer tokens to say, I know how to access this application for this life cycle for this use case and get that kind of resiliency. So it's really around having that storage. More complexity absolutely need abstraction >>layers, and you got compute. Look, leading work there. But you gotta have >>software to do it from a poor works perspective. Our products entirely software right down loans and runs using kubernetes. And so the point here is we make remarries able to run all the staple workloads out of the box using the same comment control plane, which is communities. So that's the experiences that we really want to make it so that Dev Ops teams can run anywhere close. And that's that's in some ways been part of the mix. Lisa, >>we've been covering Dev up, going back to 2010. Remember when I first was hanging around San Francisco 2008 joint was coming out the woodwork and all that early days and you look at the journey of how infrastructures code We talked about that in 2008 and now we'll get 11 years later. Look at the advancements you've been through this now The tipping point. It's just seems like this wave is big and people are on it. The developers air getting it. It's a modern renaissance of application developers, and the enterprises it's happening in the enterprise is not just like the nerds Tier one, the Alfa Geeks or >>the Cloud native. It's happening in the >>everyone's on board this time, and you and I have been in the trenches in the early stages of many open source projects. And I think with with kubernetes Arab reference of community earlier, I'm super proud to be running the world's largest CNC F for user group. And it's a great community, a diverse community, super smart people. One of my favorite things about working for works is we have some really smart engineers that have figured out what companies want, how to solve problems, and then we'll go creative. It'll open source projects. We created a project called autopilot, really largely because one of our customers, every who's in the G s space and who's running just incredible application. You can google it and see what the work they're doing. It's all there publicly, Onda We built, you know, we built an open source project for them to help them get the most out of kubernetes. We can say so. There's a lot of people in the community system doing that. How can we make communities better halfway make commitments, enterprise grade and not take years to do that? Like some of the other open source projects that we worked on, it took. So it's a super exciting time to be here, >>and open source is growing so fast now. I mean, just think about how these projects being structured. Maur and Maur projects are coming online and user price, but a lot more vendor driven projects to use be mostly and used, but now you have a lot of vendors who are users. So the line is blurring between Bender User in Open source is really fascinating. >>Well, you look at the look of the landscape on the C N. C f. You know the website. I mean, it's what 400 that are already on board. It's really important. >>They don't have enough speaking slasher with >>right. I know, and it's just it. It is users and vendors. Everybody's in this community together. It's one of things that makes it super exciting. And it it's how we know this is This was the right choice for us to base this on communities because that's what everybody, you guys >>are practically neighbors. So we're looking for seeing the studio. Palo Alto Eric, I want to ask you one final question on the product side. Road map. What you guys thinking As Kubernetes goes, the next level state, a lot of micro service is observe abilities becoming a key part of it, Obviously, automation, configuration management things are developing fast. State. What's the What's the road map for you guys? >>For us, it's been always about howto handle the mission critical and make that application run seamlessly. And then now we've done a lot of portability. So disaster recovery has been one of the biggest things for us is that customers are saying, How do I do a hybrid pattern back to your earlier question of running on Prem and in Public Cloud and do a d. R. Pale over into some of the things at least, is pointing out that we're announcing soon is non series autopilot in the idea, automatically managing applications scale from a volume capacity. And then we're actually going to start moving a lot more into some of the what you do with data after the life cycle in terms of backup and retention. So those are the things that everyone's been pushing us and the customers are all asking for. You >>know, I think data they were back in recovery is interesting. I think that's going to change radically. And I think we look at the trend of how yeah, data backup and recovery was built. It was built because of disruption of business, floods, our gains, data center failure. But I think the biggest disruptions ransomware that malware. So security is now a active disruptor. So it's not like it after the hey, if we ever have, ah, fire, we can always roll back. So you're infected and you're just rolling back infected code. That's a ransomware dream. That's what's going on. So I think data protection it needs to be >>redefined. What do you think? Absolutely. I think there's a notion of How do I get last week's data last month? And then oftentimes customers will say, If I have a piece of data volume and I suddenly have to delete it, I still need to have some record of that action for a long time, right? So those are the kinds of things that are happening and his crew bearnaise and everything. It gets changed. Suddenly. The important part is not what was just that one pot it becomes. How do I reconstruct everything? What action is not one thing. It's everywhere. That's right and protected all through the platform. If it was a platform decision, it's not some the cattlemen on the side. You can't be a single lap. It has to be entire solution. And it has to handle things like, Where do you come from? Where is it allowed to go? And you guys have that philosophy. We absolutely, and it's based on the enterprises that are adopting port works and saying, Hey, this is my romance. I'm basing it on Kubernetes. You're my date a partner. We make it happen. >>This speaks to your point of why the enterprise is in. The vendors jumped in this is what people care about Security. How do you solve this last mile problem? Storage. Networking. How do you plug those holes in Kubernetes? Because that is crucial to our >>personal private moment. Victory moment for me personally, was been a big fan of Cuban is absolutely, you know, for years. Then there were created, talked about one. The moments that got me that was really kind of a personal, heartfelt moment was enterprise buyer. And, you know, the whole mindset in the Enterprise has always been You gotta kill the old to bring in the new. And so there's always been that tension of a you know, the shiny new toy from Silicon Valley or whatever. You know, I'm not gonna just trash this and have a migration za paying that. But for I t, they don't want that to do that. They hate doing migrations, but with containers and kubernetes that could actually they don't to end of life to bring in the new project. They can do it on their own timetable or keep it around. So that took a lot of air out of the tension in on the I t. Side because they say great I can deal with the lifecycle management, my app on my own terms and go play with Cloud native and said to me, that's like that was to be like, Okay, there it is. That was validation. That means this Israel because now they can innovate without compromising. >>I think so. And I think some of that has been how the ecosystems embrace it, right. So now it's becoming all the vendors are saying my internal stack is also based on community. So even if you as an application owner or not realizing it, you're gonna take a B M next year and you're gonna run it and it's gonna be back by something like awesome. Lisa >>Marie Nappy Eric on Thank you for coming on Port Works Hot start of multiple cities Kubernetes big developer Project Open Source. Talking about multi cloud here at the inaugural Multi cloud conference in New York City. It's the Cube Courage of escape. 2019. I'm John Period. Thanks for watching

>>from New York. It's the Q covering escape. 19. Hey, welcome back to the Cube coverage here in New York City for the first inaugural multi cloud conference called Escape. We're in New York City. Was staying in New York, were not escapee from New York were in New York. So about Multi Cloud. And we're here. Lisa Marie Nancy, developer advocate for report works, and Eric Conn, vice president of products. Welcome back with you. >>Thank you, John. >>Good to see you guys. So whenever the first inaugural of anything, we want to get into it and find out why. Multiplied certainly been kicked around. People have multiple clouds, but is there really multi clouding going on? So this seems to be the theme here about setting the foundation, architecture and data to kind of consistent themes. What's your guys take? Eric, What's your take on this multi cloud trend? >>Yeah, I think it's something we've all been actively watching for a couple years, and suddenly it is becoming the thing right? So every we just had a customer event back in Europe last week, and every customer there is already running multi cloud. It's always something on their consideration. So there's definitely it's not just a discussion topic. It's now becoming a practical reality. So this event's been perfect because it's both the sense of what are people doing, What are they trying to achieve and also the business sense. So it's definitely something that is not necessarily mainstream, but it's becoming much more how they're thinking about building all their applications Going forward. >>You know, you have almost two camps in the world to get your thoughts on this guy's because like you have a cloud native people that are cloud needed, they love it. They're born in the cloud that get it. Everything's bringing along. The developers are on micro service's They're agile train with their own micro service is when you got the hybrid. I t trying to be hybrid developer, right? So you kind of have to markets coming together. So to me, Essie multi Cloud as a combination of old legacy Data Center types of I t with cloud native not just optioned. It was all about trying to build developer teams inside enterprises. This seems to be a big trend, and multi cloud fits into them because now the reality is that I got azure, I got Amazon. Well, let's take a step back and think about the architecture. What's the foundation? So that to me, is more my opinion. But I want to get your thoughts and reactions that because if it's true, that means some new thinking has to come around around. What's the architecture, What we're trying to do? What's the workloads behavior outcome look like? What's the workflow? So there's a whole nother set of conversations. >>Yeah, that happened. I agree. I think the thing that the fight out there right now that we want to make mainstream is that it's a platform choice, and that's the best way to go forward. So it's still an active debate. But the idea could be I want to do multi club, but I'm gonna lock myself into the Cloud Service is if that's the intent or that's the design architecture pattern. You're really not gonna achieve the goals we all set out to do right, So in some ways we have to design ourselves or have the architecture that will let us achieve the business schools that were really going for and that really means from our perspective or from a port Works perspective. There's a platform team. That platform team should run all the applications and do so in a multi cloud first design pattern. And so from that perspective, that's what we're doing from a data plane perspective. And that's what we do with Kubernetes etcetera. So from that idea going forward, what we're seeing is that customers do want to build a platform team, have that as the architecture pattern, and that's what we think is going to be the winning strategy. >>Thank you. Also, when you have the death definition of cod, you have to incorporate, just like with hybrid a teeny the legacy applications. And we saw that you throughout the years those crucial applications, as we call them. People don't always want them to refer to his legacy. But those are crucial applications, and our customers were definitely thinking about how we're gonna run those and where is the right places it on Prem. We're seeing that a lot, too. So I think when we talk about multi cloud, we also talk about what what is in your legacy? What is your name? I mean, I >>like you use legacy. I think it's a great word because I think it really nail the coffin of that old way because remember, if you think about some of the large enterprises these legacy applications didn't optimized for harden optimize their full stack builds up from the ground up. So they're cool. They're running stuff, but it doesn't translate to see a new platform design point. So how do you continue? This is a great fit for that, cos obviously is the answer. You guys see that? Well, okay, I can keep that and still get this design point. So I guess what I want to ask you guys, as you guys are digging into some of the customer facing conversations, what are they talking about? The day talking about? The platform? Specifically? Certainly on the security side, we're seeing everyone running away from buying tools were thinking about platform. What's the conversation like on the outside >>before your way? Did a talk are multiplied for real talk at Barcelona. Q. Khan put your X three on son. Andrew named it for reals of busy, but we really wanted to talk about multiplied in the real world. And when we said show of hands in Barcelona, who's running multi pod. It was very, very few. And this was in, what, five months? Four months ago? Whereas maybe our customers are just really super advanced because of our 100 plus customers. At four words, we Eric is right. A lot of them are already running multi cloud or if not their plan, in the planning stage right now. So even in the last +56 months, this has become a reality. And we're big fans of your vanities. I don't know if you know, Eric was the first product manager for Pernetti. T o k. He's too shy to say it on dhe. So yeah, and we think, you know, And when it does seem to be the answer to making all they caught a reality right now. >>Well, I want to get back into G k e. And Cooper was very notable historical. So congratulations. But your point about multi cloud is interesting because, you know, having multiple clouds means things, right? So, for instance, if I upgrade to office 3 65 and I killed my exchange server, I'm essentially running azure by their definition. If I'm building a stack I need of us, I'm a Navy best customer. Let's just say I want to do some tensorflow or play with big table. Are spanner on Google now? I have three clouds. No, they're not saying they have worked low specific objectives. I am totally no problem. I see that all the progressive customers, some legacy. I need to be people like maybe they put their tone a file. But anyone doing meaningful cloud probably has multiple clouds, but that's workload driven when you get into tying them together. It's interesting. I think that's where I think you guys have a great opportunity in this community because it open source convene the gateway to minimize the locket. What locket? I mean, like locking the surprise respect if its value, their great use it. But if I want to move my data out of the Amazon, >>you brought up so many good points. So let me go through a few and Lisa jumping. I feel like locking. People don't wanna be locked in at the infrastructure level. So, like you said, if there's value at the higher levels of Stack and it helps me do my business faster, that's an okay thing to exchange. But if it's just locked in and it's not doing anything. They're that's not equal exchange, right? So there's definitely a move from infrastructure up the platform. So locking in infrastructure is what people are trying to move away from. From what we see from the perspective of legacy, there is a lot of things happening in industry that's pretty exciting. How legacy will also start to run in containers, and I'm sure you've seen that. But containers being the basis you could run a BM as well. And so that will mean a lot for in terms of how VM skin start to be matched by orchestrators like kubernetes. So that is another movement for legacy, and I wanted to acknowledge that point now, in terms of the patterns, there are definitely applications, like a hybrid pattern where connect the car has to upload all its data once it docks into its location and move it to the data center. So there are patterns where the workflow does move the ups are the application data between on Prem into a public cloud, for instance, and then coming back from that your trip with Lisa. There is also examples where regulations require companies to enterprise is to be able to move to another cloud in a reasonable time frame. So there's definitely a notion of Multi Cloud is both an architectural design pattern. But it's also a sourcing strategy and that sourcing strategies Maura regulation type o. R in terms of not being locked in. And that's where I'm saying it's all those things. >>You love to get your thoughts on this because I like where you're going with this because it kind of takes it to a level of Okay, standardization kubernetes nights containing one does that. But then you're something about FBI gateways, for instance. Right? So if I'm a car, have five different gig weighs on my device devices or I have multiple vendors dealing with control playing data that could be problematic. I gotta do something. So I started envisioned. I just made that this case up. But my point is, is that you need some standards. So on the A p I side was seeing some trends there once saying, Okay, here's my stuff. I'll just pass Paramus with FBI, you know, state and stateless are two dynamics. What do you make of that? What? What what has to happen next to get to that next level of happiness and goodness because Ruben is has got it, got it there, >>right? I feel like next level. I feel like in Lisa. Please jump. And I feel like from automation perspective, Kubernetes has done that from a P I gateway. And what has to happen next. There's still a lot of easy use that isn't solved right. There's probably tons of opportunities out there to build a much better user experience, both from operations point of view and from what I'm trying to do is an intense because what people aren't gonna automate right now is the intent to automate a lot of the infrastructure manual tasks, and that's goodness. But from how I docked my application, how the application did, it gets moved. We're still at the point of making policy driven, easy to use, and I think there's a lot of opportunities for everyone to get better there. >>That's like Logan is priority looking fruity manual stuff >>and communities was really good at the food. That's a really use case that you brought up really. People were looking at the data now, and when you're talking about persistent mean Cooney's is great for stateless, but for St Paul's really crucial data. So that's where we really come in. And a number of other companies in the cloud native storage ecosystem come in and have really fought through this problem and that data management problem. That's where this platform that Aaron was talking about >>We'll get to that state problem. Talk about your company. I wanna get back Thio, Google Days, um, many war stories around kubernetes. We'll have the same fate as map reduce. You know, the debates internally and Google. What do we do with it? You guys made a good call. Congratulations doing that. What was it like to be early on? Because you already had large scale. You already had. Borg already had all these things in place. Was it like there was >>a few things I'll say One is. It was intense, right? It was intense in the sense that amazing amount of intelligence, amazing amount of intent, and right back then a lot of things were still undecided, right? We're still looking at how containers are package. We're still looking at how infrastructure Kate run and a lot of the service's were still being rolled out. So what it really meant is howto build something that people want to build, something that people want to run with you and how to build an ecosystem community. A lot of that the community got was done very well, right? You have to give credit to things like the Sig. A lot of things like how people like advocates like Lisa had gone out and made it part of what they're doing. And that's important, right? Every ecosystem needs to have those advocates, and that's what's going well, a cz ah flip side. I think there's a lot of things where way always look back, in which we could have done a few things differently. But that's a different story for different >>will. Come back and get in the studio fellow that I gotta ask you now that you're outside. Google was a culture shock. Oh my God. People actually provisioning software. Yeah, I was in a data center. Cultures. There's a little >>bit of culture shock. One thing is, and the funny thing is coming full circle in communities now, is that the idea of an application, right? The idea of what is an application eyes something that feels very comfortable to a lot of legacy traditional. I wanna use traditional applications, but the moment you're you've spent so much time incriminates and you say, What's the application? It became a very hard thing, and I used to have a lot of academic debates wise saying there is no application. It's it's a soup of resources and such. So that was a hard thing. But funny thing is covered, as is now coming out with definitions around application, and Microsoft announced a few things in that area to so there are things that are coming full circle, but that just shows how the movement has changed and how things are becoming in some ways meeting each other halfway. >>Talk about the company. What you guys are doing. Taking moments explaining contacts. Multi Cloud were here. Put worse. What's the platform? It's a product. What's the value proposition? What's the state of the company? >>Yes. So the companies? Uh well, well, it's grown from early days when Lisa and I joined where we're probably a handful now. We're in four or five cities. Geography is over 100 people over 150 customers and there. It's been a lot of enterprises that are saying, like, How do I take this pattern? Doing containers and micro service is, and how do I run it with my mission? Critical business crinkle workloads And at that point, there is no mission critical business critical workload that isn't stable so suddenly they're trying to say, How do I run These applications and containers and data have different life cycles. So what they're really looking for is a data plane that works with the control planes and how controlled planes are changing the behavior. So a lot of our technology and a lot of our product innovation has been around both the data plane but a storage control plane that integrates with a computer controlled plane. So I know we like to talk about one control plane. There's actually multiple control planes, and you mentioned security, right? If I look at how applications are running way, acting now securely access for applications and it's no longer have access to the data. Before I get to use it, you have to now start to do things like J W. T. Or much higher level bear tokens to say I know how to access this application for this life cycle for this use case and get that kind of resiliency. So it's really around having that >>storage. More complexity, absolutely needing abstraction layers and you compute. Luckily, work there. But you gotta have software to do it >>from a poor box perspective. Our products entirely software right down loans and runs using kubernetes. And so the point here is we make remarries able to run all the staple workloads out of the box using the same comment control plane, which is communities. So that's the experiences that we really want to make it so that Dev Ops teams can run anywhere close. And that's that's in some ways been part of the mix. >>Lisa, we've been covering Jeff up. Go back to 2010. Remember when I first I was hanging around? San Francisco? Doesn't eight Joint was coming out the woodwork and all that early days. You look at the journey of how infrastructures code. We'll talk about that in 2008 and now we'll get 11 years later. Look at the advancements you've been through this now the tipping point just seems like this wave is big and people are on developers air getting it. It's a modern renaissance of application developers, and the enterprise it's happening in the enterprise is not just like the energy. You're one Apple geeks or the foundation. It's happening in >>everyone's on board this time, and you and I have been in the trenches in the early stages of many open source projects. And I think with kubernetes Arab reference of community earlier, I'm super proud to be running the world's largest CNC F for user group. And it's a great community, a diverse community, super smart people. One of my favorite things about working poor works is we have some really smart engineers that have figured out what companies want, how to solve problems, and then we'll go credible open source projects. We created a project called autopilot, really largely because one of our customers, every who's in the G s space and who's running just incredible application, you can google it and see what the work they're doing. It's all out there publicly. Onda we built, you know, we've built an open source project for them to help them get the most out of kubernetes we can say so there's a lot of people in the community system doing that. How can we make communities better? Half We make competitive enterprise grade and not take years to do that. Like some of the other open source projects that we worked on, it took. So it's a super exciting time to be here, >>and open source is growing so fast. Now just think about having project being structured. More and more projects are coming online and user profit a lot more. Vendor driven projects, too used mostly and used with. Now you have a lot of support vendors who are users, so the line is blurring between then their user in open source is really fast. >>Will you look at the look of the landscape on the C N. C. F? You know the website. I mean, it's what 400 that are already on board. It's really important. >>They don't have enough speaking slasher with >>right. I know, and it's just it. It is users and vendors. Everybody's in the community together. It's one of things that makes it super exciting, and it's how we know this is This was the right choice for us. Did they communities because that's what? Everybody? >>You guys are practically neighbors. We look for CNN Studio, Palo Alto. I wanna ask you one final question on the product side. Road map. What you guys thinking As Kubernetes goes, the next level state, a lot of micro service is observe. Ability is becoming a key part of it. The automation configuration management things are developing fast. State. What's the road for you guys? For >>us, it's been always about howto handle the mission critical and make that application run seamlessly. And then now we've done a lot of portability. So disaster recovery is one of the biggest things for us is that customers are saying, How do I do a hybrid pattern back to your earlier question of running on Prem and in Public Cloud and do a D. R fail over into a Some of the things, at least, is pointing out. That we're announcing soon is non Terry's autopilot in the idea of automatically managing applications scale from a volume capacity. And then we're actually going to start moving a lot more into some of what you do with data after the life cycle in terms of backup and retention. So those are the things that everyone's been pushing us, and the customers are all asking, >>You know, I think data that recovery is interesting. I think that's going to change radically. And I think we look at the trend of how yeah, data backup recovery was built. It was built because of disruption of business, floods, our games. That's right. It is in their failure. But I think the biggest disruptions ransomware that malware. So security is now a active disruptor, So it's not like it After today. If we hadn't have ah, fire, we can always roll back. So you're infected and you're just rolling back infected code. That's a ransomware dream. That's what's going on. So I think data protection needs to redefine. >>What do you think? Absolutely. I think there's a notion of how do I get last week's data last month and then oftentimes customers will say If I have a piece of data volume and I suddenly have to delete it, I still need to have some record of that action for a long time, right? So those are the kinds of things that are happening and his crew bearnaise and everything, it gets changed. Suddenly, the important part is not what was just that one pot it becomes. How do I reconstruct everything? Action >>is not one thing. It's everywhere That's right, protected all through the platform. It is a platform decision. It's not some cattlemen on the side. >>You can't be a single lap. It has to be entire solution. And it has to handle things like, Where do you come from? Where is it allowed to go? >>You guys have that philosophy? >>We absolutely. And it's based on the enterprises that are adopting port works and saying, Hey, this is my romance. I'm basing it on Kubernetes here, my data partner. How do you make it happen? >>This speaks to your point of why the enterprise is in the vendors jumped in. This is what people care about security. How do you solve this last mile problem? Storage, Networking. How do you plug those holes and kubernetes? Because that is crucial. >>One personal private moment. Victory moment for me personally, Waas been a big fan of Cuban, is actually, you know, for years in there when it was created, talked about one of moments that got me was personal. Heartfelt moment was enterprise buyer on. The whole mindset in the enterprise has always been You gotta kill the old to bring in the new. And so there's always been that tension of a you know, the shame, your toy from Silicon Valley or whatever. You know, I'm not gonna just trash this and have a migration is a pain in the butt fried. You don't want that to do that. They hate doing migrations, but with containers and kubernetes, they actually they don't end of life to bring in the new project they could do on their own or keep it around. So that took a lot of air out of the tension in on the I t. Side. Because it's a great I can deal with the life cycle of my app on my own terms and go play with Cloud native and said to me, I was like, That was to be like, Okay, there it is. That was validation. That means this is real because now they will be without compromising. >>I think so. And I think some of that has been how the ecosystems embraced it, right, So now it's becoming all the vendors are saying My internal stack is also based on company. So even if you as an application owner or not realizing it, you're gonna take a B M next year and you're gonna run it and it's gonna be back by something like >>the submarine and the aircon. Thank you for coming on court. Worse Hot started Multiple cities Kubernetes Big developer Project Open Source Talking about multi cloud here at the inaugural Multi Cloud Conference in New York City Secu Courage of Escape Plan 19 John Corey Thanks for watching.