>>Here you are new. Welcome back to the cubes. Continuing coverage of AWS reinvent 2021 live from Las Vegas. Lisa Martin, with John farrier, John, we have two live sets. There's a dueling set right across from us two remote studios over 100 guests on the cube at AWS reinvent 2021. Been great. We've had great conversations. We're talking about the next generation of cloud innovation and we're pleased to welcome one of our alumni back to the program. Lisa Bernays here, the CEO and co-founder of D L Z P group. Lisa. Welcome. >>Hi, thank you. I appreciate the opportunity to be here with you and John. It's a great opportunity >>And John's lucky he gets to lease us for the price of London. One second. Talk to me about da DLDP. This is a woman and minority owned company. Congratulations. That's awesome. But talk to us about your organization and then we'll kind of dig into your partnership with AWS. >>Sure. So DLC P group, we found it in 2012. Um, and for us, we were at the time we were just looking for a way to offer a value added service to our customers. We wanted to always make sure that we were giving them the best quality, but what I also wanted to do is I wanted to create an environment for my employees, where they felt valued, and we kind of built these core values back then about respect, flat hierarchy, um, team, team learning, mentorship, and we incorporated, so everybody can do this remotely from around the world. So we've always made sure that our employees and customers are getting the best value. >>Well, what kind of customers, what target market, what kind of customers do you guys work with? >>Well, we've actually made sure that we're diverse. We make sure that we have 50% in public sector and 50% in private sector, but it's been very, very interesting journey for us because once we started one sec, like we started with cities and then a number of cities started contacting us to do more business. So it's always been this hurdle to make sure we're diverse enough to make sure we offer the best solutions. >>And you jumped in with AWS back in 2012 when most folks were still to your point. I saw your interview earlier this summer, thinking about Amazon as a bookstore, why a debit? What did you see as the opportunity back in 2012 with them? >>Well, when we first heard about AWS, my first thought is, well, it's amazon.com. What is AWS? And then once we started talking to them, we saw the capabilities and the potential there. We saw what it could do. So we partnered with them to actually have the first working PeopleSoft customer on AWS. So that's a large ERP application and that helped build the foundation to prove what could actually run on the cloud. And since then, we've been able to prove so much more about the technology and what AWS is accomplishing. >>Was it a hard sell back in the day? >>It was a little bit hard, but it was interesting because we were speaking with one of our customers they're on premise and they're like, well, you know, we're going to have to re do a whole data center. We're talking about millions of dollars. We don't really have the budget to redo this. And that's when we're like, well, we have this great partnership with Amazon. We think this would be the perfect opportunity to let you try the cloud and see how successful it was. >>At least I want to point out you got your, one of the Pathfinders that Adams Leschi pointed out because back in 2012, getting PeopleSoft onto the cloud, which is really big effort, but that's what everyone's doing now. I just saw the news here. SAP is running their application on graviton too, right? So you start to see and public sector during the pandemic, we saw a ton of connect. So you were really on this whole ERP. ERP is our big applications. It's not small, but now it's, everyone's kind of going that way. What's the current, uh, you feel how you feel about that one? And what's the current update relative to the kind of projects you got going on? >>Well, we've, we've evolved quite a bit. I mean, PeopleSoft is always going to be in our DNA. A lot of my employees are ex or Oracle employees. They have developed a lot of the foundations for PeopleSoft, but since then, like we've worked with serverless technology when that was released a number of years ago, we, we asked our team, okay, AWS just talked about Lambda, serverless technology, go figure out what is the best solution. We ended up running ours, our website serverless. We were one of the first. And from that, we brought our website costs down from hundreds of dollars to pennies a month. So it's a huge savings. And then we started, um, about two years ago, we spoke with our utility company. Um, there were saying how with machine learning, they were only going to be able to get a 75% accuracy for their wind turbines. And we said, well, let us take a shot at it. We have some great solutions on AWS that we think might work. We were able to redo their algorithm using AWS cloud native tools, open source data to get a 97 to 99% accuracy on a daily basis. And that saves them millions of dollars each day. >>Don's right. And as Adam was saying with some of the folks, customers, he was highlighting on main stage the other day, you are a Pathfinder. How did you get the confidence? Especially as a female minority owned business. I'd love to just get maybe for some of those younger viewers out there. How did you get the confidence to, you know what? I think we can do this. >>I think for me, I, I, I don't like to take no for an answer. There's always a solution. So we're always looking at technology, seeing how we can use it to get a better answer. >>What do you think about reinvent this year? A lot of goodies here every year, there's always new creative juices flowing because it's a learning conference, but it's also feels like a futuristic kind of conference. What's your take this year? >>I don't know if you happen to attend midnight madness when they were talking about robotics and the future with that. I mean, we've been talking about that for a number of years of what could be created with robotics. Like even my son back in middle school was talking about creating a robot Butler. He just, everybody knows what the future is. And it's so great that we finally have the foundation in technology to be able to create these >>Well, if you're someone that doesn't like to say, no, does your son actually have a robot Butler these >>Days? He's still working on it. >>That's a good answer to say, Hey, sorry, your mom's not going to be there to get the robot. The latency thing. This is the robot. First of all, we'd love the robotics, I think is huge. We just had George on who's the fraught PM for ECE to edge and late, the wavelength stuff looks really promising for the robotics stuff. Super exciting. >>Yes. We can't wait to start playing with it more. I mean, it's something that our team has been dabbling. We spent probably about 30% of our time on R and D. So we're looking at the future and what we can invent next because >>You guys can affect such dramatic changes for customers. You talked about that wind turbine customer going from 75% accuracy to 97, 90 8%. Where are your customer conversations? Cause that's, is, are they at the C level with showing organizations that dramatic reduction in costs and workforce productivity increased that they can get? >>We talk with everyone it's it could be the solution architect. It could be an intern. It could, and we're just sharing our ideas with them. And we also talk with the C level. Um, it's just, it's everybody is interested in and they have different, different ideas that they want to share. So with the solution architect, we can share with them the code and how we're going to architect it. While the C level, we just pointed out black and white, this is your cost. Now this is what your cost is going to be. And everybody is happy. They, they jump on board with it. >>Lisa, you mentioned 30% R and D by the way, it's awesome. By the way, that's well above most averages, what are you working on? Because I totally think companies should have a big R and D play around budget, get a sandbox, going get some tinkering. Cause you never know where the real discoveries we had. David Brown who runs NC to nitro, came out of a card on the network. So you'd never know where the next innovation comes from. What's the, what are you guys doing for R and D? What's the fun projects are what endeavors. >>So there's two of them. One is actually a product, which is a little bit out of our comfort zone, but we're, we're, we're looking to develop something that will be able to help, um, NASA. So that's the goal where, you know, we've been working on it since they released their ma their mission to Mars projection. So it's something that we're very passionate about, but then we're also building a software. Uh, we've been working on it for about three years now and we actually have two customers prototyping it. So we're hoping to be able to launch it to the public within the next year. >>You mentioned NASA and I just about jumped out of my chair. That was my first job out of grad school was really the space program. Can you tell us a little bit more about what you're helping them do? I love how forward-thinking that they are, obviously they always have been, but tell me a little bit more about that. >>So I can't share too much because it's one of those things is a common sense thing. Once you think about a little bit more, it's kind of like why didn't anybody never think about this? So we're using new technology and old technology together to combine the solution. >>Ooh, I can't wait to learn more. Talk to us about these. Think big for small business TB SB program at AWS. How long have you guys been a part of that and what is it enabling? What is it going to enable you to do in 2022? So >>The think big for small business program was the brainchild is Sandy Carter. And I am always, always going to be grateful to her. Um, I met with her in 2019. I shared her journey, our journey with her about how we started out being a premier partner and then over time, because there's so many other partners, we were downgraded. And because just because we're a small business, and even if I had every employee, even my admin staff certified, we would never have enough employees to be to the next level, even though we had the customers, the references. So she listened to us and other small businesses and created the program. And it's been a great opportunity for us because we're, we're gaining access to capital, you know, funding for opportunities. We're getting resources for training. So it, for us, it's been a huge advantage. >>It sounds like a part of that AWS flywheel that we always talk about. John Sandy Carter being one of our famous Cuba alumni. She was just on yesterday with you. Okay. >>And there's so many opportunities for all businesses because you can, you can tackle these problems. You don't have to be a large partner. You can have specialty in AI works really well in these specialized environments. And even technically single-threaded multithreaded applications, which is a technical CS term is actually better to have a single threaded. If you have too many cores, it's actually bad technically. So the world's changing like big time on how technology. So I'm a huge fan of the program. And I think like it's just one of those things where people can get it from cloud and be successful. >>Yes. And that's the goal. I mean, there is so much opportunity in the cloud and we bring interns on all the time, just so they can learn. And what, what resonated with me the most was we brought a high school senior in, he goes, I was with you guys for three months. I learned more in three months, I did four years of high school. And he's like, you set me up for the future. >>Oh my gosh. If there's not validation for you doing in that statement alone. My goodness. Well, you know, some of the things that, that are so many exciting announcements that have come out of this reinvent, so great to be back in person one. Um, but also, you know, being able to help AWS customers become data companies. Because as we were been talking about the last couple of days, every company has to be a data company. You gotta figure it out. If you're, if you haven't by now, there's a competitor right back here, who's ready to take your spot. Talk to us about what excites you about enabling companies to become data companies as we head into 2020. >>Well, for us, everybody has so much data nowadays. You know, I mean even think about cell phones, how much data is stored in that. So each device has so much information, but what do you do with it? So it's great because a lot of these companies are trying to figure out what, how can we use this data to prove that improve the experience for our customers? So that's where we've been coming in and showing them, okay, well, you can take that data. You look at Lisa and John cell phone. You see that they, they love to look up where they're going to go on their next vacation. You can start creating algorithms to make sure that they get the best experience one for the next vacation to make sure it's not a won't Rob the bank. >>Awesome. And going on vacation tomorrow. So I'll be, I'll be expecting some help from you on that. It's been great to have you on the program. Yeah. Congratulations on the success, the partnership, and where can folks go if if young or old years are watching and are interested in working with you, it's the website where they, where can they go to learn more >>Information? So they can go to D L Z P group.com >>DLZ P group.com. Awesome. Lisa, thanks so much for coming back on the program. Great >>To see you. Thank you so much. All >>Right. For John furrier, I'm Lisa Martin and you're watching the cube, the global leader in live tech coverage.

>>from New York. It's the Q covering Escape. 19. >>Welcome back to the Cube coverage here in New York City for the first inaugural multi cloud conference called Escape, where in New York City was staying in New York, were not escaping from New York were in New York. It's all about multi Cloud, and we're here. Lisa Marie Nancy, developer advocate for Port Works, and Eric Conn, vice president of Products Works. Welcome back. Q. >>Thank you, John. Good to see >>you guys. So, um, whenever the first inaugural of anything, we want to get into it and find out why. Multi clouds certainly been kicked around. People have multiple clouds, but is there really multi clouding going on? So this seems to be the theme here about setting the foundation, architecture and data of the two kind of consistent themes. What shared guys take Eric, What's your take on this multi cloud trend? Yeah, >>I think it's something we've all been actively watching for a couple years, and suddenly it is becoming the thing right? So every we just had ah, customer event back in Europe last week, and every customer there is already running multi cloud. It's always something on their consideration. So there's definitely it's not just a discussion topic. It's now becoming a practical reality. So this event's been perfect because it's both the sense of what are people doing, What are they trying to achieve and also the business sense. So it's definitely something that is not necessarily mainstream, but it's becoming much more how they're thinking about building all their applications. Going forward, >>you know, you have almost two camps in the world. Want to get your thoughts on this guy's Because, like you have cloud native and people that are cloud native, they love it. They born the cloud that get it. Everything's cracking along. The developers air on Micro Service's They're agile train with their own micro service's. Then you got the hybrid I t. Trying to be hybrid developer, right? So you kind of have to markets coming together. So to me, I see multi cloud as kind of a combination of old legacy Data center types of I t with cloud native, not just ops and dead. But how about like trying to build developer teams inside enterprises? This seems to be a big trend, and multi club fits into that because now the reality is that I got azure. I got Amazon. Well, let's take a step back and think about the architecture. What's the foundation? So that to me, is more my opinion. But I want to get your thoughts and reactions that because if it's true, that means some new thinking has to come around around. What's the architecture? What are you trying to do? What's the workloads behavior outcome look like? What's the work flows? So there's a whole nother set of conversations that happened. >>I agree. I think the thing that the fight out there right now that we want to make mainstream is that it's a platform choice, and that's the best way to go forward. So it's still an active debate. But the idea could be I want to do multi club, but I'm gonna lock myself into the Cloud Service is if that's the intent or that's the design architecture pattern. You're really not gonna achieve the goals we all set out to do right, So in some ways we have to design ourselves or have the architecture that will let us achieve the business schools that were really going for and that really means from our perspective or from a port works perspective. There's a platform team. That platform team should run all the applications and do so in a multi cloud first design pattern. And so from that perspective, that's what we're doing from a data plan perspective. And that's what we do with Kubernetes etcetera. So from that idea going forward, what we're seeing is that customers do want to build a platform team, have that as the architecture pattern, and that's what we think is going to be the winning strategy. >>Thank you. Also, when you have the definition of cod you have to incorporate, just like with hybrid I t the legacy applications. And we saw that you throughout the years those crucial applications, as we call them People don't always want them to refer to his legacy. But those are crucial applications, and our customers were definitely thinking about how we're gonna run those and where is the right places it on Prem. We're seeing that a lot too. So I think when we talk about multi cloud, we also talk about what What is in your legacy? What is it? Yeah, I >>like I mean I use legacy. I think it's a great word because I think it really puts nail in the coffin of that old way because remember, if you think about some of the large enterprises, these legacy applications, they've been optimized for hardware and optimize their full stack. They've been build up from the ground up, so they're cool. They're running stuff, but it doesn't always translate to see a new platform designed point. So how do you mean Containers is great fit for their Cooper names. Obviously, you know is the answer. We you guys see that as well, but okay, I can keep that and still get this design point. So I guess what I want to ask you guys, as you guys are digging into some of the customer facing conversations, what are they talking about? The day talking about? The platform? Specifically? Certainly, on the security side, we're seeing everyone running away from buying tools to thinking about platforms. What's the conversation like on the cloud side >>way? Did a talk are multiplied for real talk at Barcelona? Q. Khan put your X three on Sudden. Andrew named it for reals of Izzy, but we really wanted to talk about multiplied in the real world. And when we said show of hands in Barcelona, who's running multi cloud? It was very, very few. And this was in, what, five months? Four months ago? Whereas maybe our customers are just really super advanced because of our 100 plus customers. At four words, we Eric is right. A lot of them are already running multi cloud or if not their plan, in the planning stage right now. So even in the last +56 months, this has become a reality. And we're big fans of communities. I don't know if you know Eric was the first product manager for Pernetti. Hey, he's too shy to say it on Dhe. So yeah, and we think, you know, and criminal justice to be the answer to making all They caught a reality right now. >>Well, I want to get back into G, K, E and Cooper. Very notable historic moment. So congratulations, But to your point about multi cloud, it's interesting because, you know, having multiple clouds means things, right? So, for instance, if I upgrade to office 3 65 and I kill my exchange server, I'm essentially running azure by their definition. If I'm building it, stack on AWS. I'm a native, this customer. Let's just say I want to do some tensorflow or play with big table or spanner on Google. Now >>we have three >>clouds now they're not. So they have work clothes, specific objectives. I am totally no problem. I see that like for the progressive customers, some legacy be to be people who like maybe they put their toe in the cloud. But anyone doing meaningful cloud probably has multiple clouds. But that's workload driven when you get into tying them together and is interesting. And I think that's where I think you guys have a great opportunity in this community because if open source convene the gateway to minimize the lock in and when I say lock and I mean like locking them propriety respect if his value their great use it. But if I want to move my data out of the Amazon, >>you brought up so many good points. So let me go through a few and Lisa jumping. I feel like locking. People don't wanna be locked >>in at the infrastructure level. So, like you said, if >>there's value at the higher levels of Stack, and it helps me do my business faster. That's an okay thing to exchange, but it is just locked in and it's not doing anything. They're that's not equal exchange, right, So there's definitely a move from infrastructure up the platform. So locking in >>infrastructure is what people are trying to move away from. >>From what we see from the perspective of legacy, there is a lot of things happening in industry that's pretty exciting of how legacy will also start to running containers. And I'm sure you've seen that. But containers being the basis you could run a BM as well. And so that will mean a lot for in terms of how V EMS can start >>to be matched by orchestrators like kubernetes. So that is another movement for legacy, and I wanted to acknowledge that point >>now, in terms of the patterns, there are definitely applications, like a hybrid pattern where connect the car has to upload all its data once it docks into its location and move it to the data center. So there are patterns where the workflow does move the ups are the application data between on Prem into a public cloud, for instance, and then coming back from that your trip with Lisa. There is also examples where regulations require companies to enterprise is to be able to move to another cloud in a reasonable time frame. So there's definitely a notion of Multi Cloud is both an architectural design pattern. But it's also a sourcing strategy, and that sourcing strategy is more regulation type o. R. In terms of not being locked in. And that's where I'm saying it's all those things. I'd >>love to get your thoughts on this because I like where you're going with this because it kind of takes it to a level of okay, standardization, kubernetes nights, containers, everyone knows what that is. But then you start talking about a P I gateways, for instance, right? So if I'm a car and I have five different gateways on my device, I ot devices or I have multiple vendors dealing with control playing data that could be problematic. I gotta do something like that. So I'm starting. Envision them? I just made that news case up, but my point is is that you need some standards. So on the a p I side was seeing some trends there. One saying, Okay, here's my stuff. I'll just pass parameters with FBI State and stateless are two dynamics. What do you make of that? What, What? What has to happen next to get to that next level of happiness and goodness? Because Bernays, who's got it, got it there, >>right? I feel that next level. I feel like in Lisa, Please jump. And I feel like from automation perspective, Kubernetes has done that from a P I gateway. And what has to happen next. There's still a lot of easy use that isn't solved right. There's probably tons of opportunities out there to build a much better user experience, both from the operations point of view and from what I'm trying to do is an intense because what people aren't gonna automate right now is the intent. They automate a lot of the infrastructure manual tasks, and that's goodness. But from how I docked my application, how the application did it gets moved. We're still at the point of making policy driven, easy to use, and I think there's a lot of opportunities for everyone to get better there. That's like low priority loving fruitcake manual stuff >>and communities was really good at the local food. That's a really use case that you brought up. Really. People were looking at the data now and when you're talking about persistent mean kun is his great for stateless, but for state full really crucial data. So that's where we really come in. And a number of other companies in the cloud native storage ecosystem come in and have really fought through this problem and that data management problem. That's where this platform that Aaron was talking to that >>state problem. Talk about your company. I want to go back to to, um, Google Days. Um, many war stories around kubernetes will have the same fate as map reduce. Yeah, the debates internally at Google. What do we do with it? You guys made the good call. Congratulations on doing that. What was it like to be early on? Because you already had large scale. You were already had. Borg already had all these things in place. Um, it wasn't like there was what was, >>Well, a few things l say one is It was intense, right? It was intense in the sense that amazing amount of intelligence amazing amount of intent, and right back then a lot of things were still undecided, right? We're still looking at how containers or package we're still looking at how infrastructure kit run and a lot of service is were still being rolled out. So what it really meant is howto build something that people want to build, something that people want to run with you and how to build an ecosystem community. A lot of that the community got was done very well, right? You have to give credit to things like the Sig. A lot of things like how people like advocates like Lisa had gone out and made it part of what they're doing. And that's important, right? Every ecosystem needs to have those advocates, and that's what's going well, a cz ah flip side. I think there's a lot of things where way always look back, in which we could have done a few things differently. But that's a different story for different. Today >>I will come back in the studio Palop of that. I gotta ask you now that you're outside. Google was a culture shock. Oh my God! People actually provisioning software provisioning data center culture shock when there's a little >>bit of culture shock. One thing is, and the funny thing is coming full circle in communities now, is that the idea of an application? Right? The idea of what is an application eyes, something that feels very comfortable to a lot of legacy traditional. I wanna use traditional applications, but the moment you're you've spent so much time incriminates and you say, What's the application? It became a very hard thing, and I used to have a lot of academic debates. Where is saying there is no application? It's It's a soup of resources and such. So that was a hard thing. But funny thing is covered, as is now coming out with definitions around application, and Microsoft announced a few things in that area to so there are things that are coming full circle, but that just shows how the movement has changed and how things are becoming in some ways meeting each other halfway. >>Talk about the company, what you guys are doing. Take a moment. Explain in context to multi cloud. We're here. Port works. What's the platform? It's a product. What's the value proposition? What's the state of the company. >>So the companies? Uh well, well, it's grown from early days when Lisa and I joined where we're probably a handful now. We're in four or five cities. Geography ease over 100 people over 150 customers and there. It's been a lot of enterprises that are saying, like, How do I take this pattern of doing containers and micro service is And how do I run it with my mission? Critical business crinkle workloads. And at that point, there is no mission critical business critical workload that isn't stable so suddenly they're trying to say, How do I run These applications and containers and data have different life cycles. So what they're really looking for is a data plane that works with the control planes and how controlled planes are changing the behavior. So a lot of our technology and a lot of our product innovation has been around both the data plane but a storage control plane that integrates with a computer controlled plane. So I know we like to talk about one control plane. There's actually multiple control planes, and you mentioned security, right? If I look at how applications are running way after now securely access for applications, and it's no longer have access to the data. Before I get to use it, you have to now start to do things like J W. T. Or much higher level bearer tokens to say, I know how to access this application for this life cycle for this use case and get that kind of resiliency. So it's really around having that storage. More complexity absolutely need abstraction >>layers, and you got compute. Look, leading work there. But you gotta have >>software to do it from a poor works perspective. Our products entirely software right down loans and runs using kubernetes. And so the point here is we make remarries able to run all the staple workloads out of the box using the same comment control plane, which is communities. So that's the experiences that we really want to make it so that Dev Ops teams can run anywhere close. And that's that's in some ways been part of the mix. Lisa, >>we've been covering Dev up, going back to 2010. Remember when I first was hanging around San Francisco 2008 joint was coming out the woodwork and all that early days and you look at the journey of how infrastructures code We talked about that in 2008 and now we'll get 11 years later. Look at the advancements you've been through this now The tipping point. It's just seems like this wave is big and people are on it. The developers air getting it. It's a modern renaissance of application developers, and the enterprises it's happening in the enterprise is not just like the nerds Tier one, the Alfa Geeks or >>the Cloud native. It's happening in the >>everyone's on board this time, and you and I have been in the trenches in the early stages of many open source projects. And I think with with kubernetes Arab reference of community earlier, I'm super proud to be running the world's largest CNC F for user group. And it's a great community, a diverse community, super smart people. One of my favorite things about working for works is we have some really smart engineers that have figured out what companies want, how to solve problems, and then we'll go creative. It'll open source projects. We created a project called autopilot, really largely because one of our customers, every who's in the G s space and who's running just incredible application. You can google it and see what the work they're doing. It's all there publicly, Onda We built, you know, we built an open source project for them to help them get the most out of kubernetes. We can say so. There's a lot of people in the community system doing that. How can we make communities better halfway make commitments, enterprise grade and not take years to do that? Like some of the other open source projects that we worked on, it took. So it's a super exciting time to be here, >>and open source is growing so fast now. I mean, just think about how these projects being structured. Maur and Maur projects are coming online and user price, but a lot more vendor driven projects to use be mostly and used, but now you have a lot of vendors who are users. So the line is blurring between Bender User in Open source is really fascinating. >>Well, you look at the look of the landscape on the C N. C f. You know the website. I mean, it's what 400 that are already on board. It's really important. >>They don't have enough speaking slasher with >>right. I know, and it's just it. It is users and vendors. Everybody's in this community together. It's one of things that makes it super exciting. And it it's how we know this is This was the right choice for us to base this on communities because that's what everybody, you guys >>are practically neighbors. So we're looking for seeing the studio. Palo Alto Eric, I want to ask you one final question on the product side. Road map. What you guys thinking As Kubernetes goes, the next level state, a lot of micro service is observe abilities becoming a key part of it, Obviously, automation, configuration management things are developing fast. State. What's the What's the road map for you guys? >>For us, it's been always about howto handle the mission critical and make that application run seamlessly. And then now we've done a lot of portability. So disaster recovery has been one of the biggest things for us is that customers are saying, How do I do a hybrid pattern back to your earlier question of running on Prem and in Public Cloud and do a d. R. Pale over into some of the things at least, is pointing out that we're announcing soon is non series autopilot in the idea, automatically managing applications scale from a volume capacity. And then we're actually going to start moving a lot more into some of the what you do with data after the life cycle in terms of backup and retention. So those are the things that everyone's been pushing us and the customers are all asking for. You >>know, I think data they were back in recovery is interesting. I think that's going to change radically. And I think we look at the trend of how yeah, data backup and recovery was built. It was built because of disruption of business, floods, our gains, data center failure. But I think the biggest disruptions ransomware that malware. So security is now a active disruptor. So it's not like it after the hey, if we ever have, ah, fire, we can always roll back. So you're infected and you're just rolling back infected code. That's a ransomware dream. That's what's going on. So I think data protection it needs to be >>redefined. What do you think? Absolutely. I think there's a notion of How do I get last week's data last month? And then oftentimes customers will say, If I have a piece of data volume and I suddenly have to delete it, I still need to have some record of that action for a long time, right? So those are the kinds of things that are happening and his crew bearnaise and everything. It gets changed. Suddenly. The important part is not what was just that one pot it becomes. How do I reconstruct everything? What action is not one thing. It's everywhere. That's right and protected all through the platform. If it was a platform decision, it's not some the cattlemen on the side. You can't be a single lap. It has to be entire solution. And it has to handle things like, Where do you come from? Where is it allowed to go? And you guys have that philosophy. We absolutely, and it's based on the enterprises that are adopting port works and saying, Hey, this is my romance. I'm basing it on Kubernetes. You're my date a partner. We make it happen. >>This speaks to your point of why the enterprise is in. The vendors jumped in this is what people care about Security. How do you solve this last mile problem? Storage. Networking. How do you plug those holes in Kubernetes? Because that is crucial to our >>personal private moment. Victory moment for me personally, was been a big fan of Cuban is absolutely, you know, for years. Then there were created, talked about one. The moments that got me that was really kind of a personal, heartfelt moment was enterprise buyer. And, you know, the whole mindset in the Enterprise has always been You gotta kill the old to bring in the new. And so there's always been that tension of a you know, the shiny new toy from Silicon Valley or whatever. You know, I'm not gonna just trash this and have a migration za paying that. But for I t, they don't want that to do that. They hate doing migrations, but with containers and kubernetes that could actually they don't to end of life to bring in the new project. They can do it on their own timetable or keep it around. So that took a lot of air out of the tension in on the I t. Side because they say great I can deal with the lifecycle management, my app on my own terms and go play with Cloud native and said to me, that's like that was to be like, Okay, there it is. That was validation. That means this Israel because now they can innovate without compromising. >>I think so. And I think some of that has been how the ecosystems embrace it, right. So now it's becoming all the vendors are saying my internal stack is also based on community. So even if you as an application owner or not realizing it, you're gonna take a B M next year and you're gonna run it and it's gonna be back by something like awesome. Lisa >>Marie Nappy Eric on Thank you for coming on Port Works Hot start of multiple cities Kubernetes big developer Project Open Source. Talking about multi cloud here at the inaugural Multi cloud conference in New York City. It's the Cube Courage of escape. 2019. I'm John Period. Thanks for watching

>> from our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California It is a cute conversation. >> Welcome to this Cube conversation here in Palo Alto, California. At the Cube Studios. I'm John for a host of the Cube. We're here for a company profile coming called De Monte. Here. Tom Barton, CEO. As V M World approaches a lot of stuff is going to be talked about kubernetes applications. Micro Service's will be the top conversation, Certainly in the underlying infrastructure to power that Tom Barton is the CEO of De Monte, which is in that business. Tom, we've known each other for a few years. You've done a lot of great successful ventures. Thehe Monty's new one. Your got on your plate here right now? >> Yes, sir. And I'm happy to be here, so I've been with the Amante GIs for about a year or so. Um, I found out about the company through a head turner. Andi, I have to admit I had not heard of the company before. Um, but I was a huge believer in containers and kubernetes. So has already sold on that. And so I had a friend of mine. His name is Brian Walden. He had done some massive kubernetes cloud based deployments for us at Planet Labs, a company that I was out for a little over three years. So I had him do technical due diligence. Brian was also the number three guy, a core OS, um, and so deeply steeped in all of the core technologies around kubernetes, including things like that CD and other elements of the technology. So he looked at it, came back and gave me two thumbs up. Um, he liked it so much that I then hired him. So he is now our VP of product management. And the the cool thing about the Amanti is essentially were a purpose built solution for running container based workloads in kubernetes on premises and then hooking that in with the cloud. So we believe that's very much gonna be a hybrid cloud world where for the major corporations that we serve Fortune 500 companies like banks like energy and utilities and so forth Ah, lot of their workload will maintain and be maintained on premises. They still want to be cloud compatible. So you need a purpose built platform to sort of manage both environments >> Yeah, we certainly you guys have compelling on radar, but I was really curious to see when you came in and took over at the helm of the CEO. Because your entrepreneurial career really has been unique. You're unique. Executive. Both lost their lands. And as an operator you have an open source and software background. And also you have to come very successful companies and exits there as well as in the hardware side with trackable you took. That company went public. So you got me. It's a unique and open source software, open source and large hardware. Large data center departments at scale, which is essentially the hybrid cloud market right now. So you kind of got the unique. You have seen the view from all the different sides, and I think now more than ever, with Public Cloud certainly being validated. Everyone knows Amazon of your greenfield. You started the cloud, but the reality is hybrid. Cloud is the operating model of the genesis. Next generation of companies drive for the next 20 to 30 years, and this is the biggest conversation. The most important story in tech. You're in the middle of it with a hot start up with a name that probably no one's ever heard of, >> right? We hope to change that. >> Wassily. Why did you join this company? What got your attention? What was the key thing once you dug in there? What was the secret sauce was what Got your attention? Yes. So to >> me again, the market environment. I'm a huge believer that if you look at the history of the last 15 years, we went from an environment that was 0% virtualized too. 95% virtualized with, you know, Vienna based technologies from VM Wear and others. I think that fundamentally, containers in kubernetes are equally as important. They're going to be equally as transformative going forward and how people manage their workloads both on premises and in the clouds. Right? And the fact that all three public cloud providers have anointed kubernetes as the way of the future and the doctor image format and run time as the wave of the future means, you know, good things were gonna happen there. What I thought was unique about the company was for the first time, you know, surprisingly, none of the exit is sick. Senders, um, in companies like Nutanix that have hyper converse solutions. They really didn't have anything that was purpose built for native container support. And so the founders all came from Cisco UCS. They had a lot of familiarity with the underpinnings of hyper converged architectures in the X 86 server landscape and networking, subsistence and storage subsystems. But they wanted to build it using the latest technologies, things like envy and me based Flash. Um, and they wanted to do it with a software stack that was native containers in Kubernetes. And today we support two flavors of that one that's fully open source around upstream kubernetes in another that supports our partner Red hat with open shift. >> I think you're really onto something pretty big here because one of things that day Volonte and Mine's too many men and our team had been looking at is we're calling a cloud to point over the lack of a better word kind of riff on the Web to point out concept. But cloud one daughter was Amazon. Okay, Dev ops agile, Great. Check the box. They move on with life. It's always a great resource, is never gonna stop. But cloud 2.0, is about networking. It's about securities but data. And if you look at all the innovation startups, we'll have one characteristic. They're all playing in this hyper converged hardware meat software stack with data and agility, kind of to make the original Dev ops monocle better. The one daughter which was storage and compute, which were virtualization planes. So So you're seeing that pattern and it's wide ranging at security is data everything else So So that's kind of what we call the Cloud two point game. So if you look at V m World, you look at what's going on the conversations around micro service red. It's an application centric conversation in an infrastructure show. So do you see that same vision? And if so, how do you guys see you enabling the customer at this saying, Hey, you know what? I have all this legacy. I got full scale data centers. I need to go full scale cloud and I need zero and disruption to my developer. Yeah, so >> this is the beauty of containers and kubernetes, which is they know it'll run on the premises they know will run in the cloud, right? Um and it's it is all about micro service is so whether they're trying to adopt them on our database, something like manga TB or Maria de B or Crunchy Post Grey's, whether it's on the operational side to enable sort of more frequent and incremental change, or whether it's on a developer side to take advantage of new ways of developing and delivering APS with C I. C. D. Tools and so forth. It's pretty much what people want to do because it's future proofing your software development effort, right? So there's sort of two streams of demand. One is re factoring legacy applications that are insufficiently kind of granule, arised on, behave and fail in a monolithic way. Um, as well as trying to adopt modern, modern, cloud based native, you know, solutions for things like databases, right? And so that the good news is that customers don't have to re factor everything. There are logical break points in their applications stack where they can say, Okay, maybe I don't have the time and energy and resource is too totally re factor a legacy consumer banking application. But at least I can re factor the data based here and serve up you know container in Kubernetes based service is, as Micro Service's database is, a service to be consumed by. >> They don't need to show the old to bring in the new right. It's used containers in our orchestration, Layla Kubernetes, and still be positioned for whether it's service measures or other things. Floor That piece of the shirt and everything else could run, as is >> right, and there are multiple deployments scenarios. Four containers. You can run containers, bare metal. Most of our customers choose to do that. You can also run containers on top of virtual machines, and you can actually run virtual machines on top of containers. So one of our major media customers actually run Splunk on top of K B M on top of containers. So there's a lot of different deployment scenarios. And really, a lot of the genius of our architecture was to make it easy for people that are coming from traditional virtualized environments to remap system. Resource is from the bm toe to a container at a native level or through Vienna. >> You mentioned the history lesson there around virtualization. How 15 years ago there was no virtualization now, but everything's virtualized we agree with you that containers and compares what is gonna change that game for the next 15 years? But what's it about VM? Where would made them successful was they could add virtualization without requiring code modification, right? And they did it kind of under the covers. And that's a concern Customs have. I have developers out there. They're building stacks. The building code. I got preexisting legacy. They don't really want to change their code, right? Do you guys fit into that narrative? >> We d'oh, right, So every customer makes their own choice about something like that. At the end of the day, I mentioned Splunk. So at the time that we supported this media customer on Splunk, Splunk had not yet provided a container based version for their application. Now they do have that, but at the time they supported K B M, but not native containers and so unmodified Splunk unmodified application. We took them from a batch job that ran for 23 hours down the one hour based on accelerating and on our perfect converged appliance and running unmodified code on unmodified K B m on our gear. Right, So some customers will choose to do that. But there are also other customers, particularly at scale for transaction the intensive applications like databases and messaging and analytics, where they say, You know, we could we could preserve our legacy virtualized infrastructure. But let's try it as a pair a metal container approach. And they they discovered that there's actually some savings from both a business standpoint and a technology tax standpoint or an overhead standpoint. And so, as I mentioned most of our customers, actually really. Deficiencies >> in the match is a great example sticking to the product technology differentiate. What's the big secret sauce describe the product? Why are you winning in accounts? What's the lift in your business right now? You guys were getting some traction from what I'm hearing. Yeah, >> sure. So look at the at the highest level of value Proposition is simplicity. There is no other purpose built, you know, complete hardware software stack that delivers coup bernetti coproduction kubernetes environment up and running in 15 minutes. Right. The X 86 server guys don't really have it. Nutanix doesn't really have it. The software companies that are active in this space don't really have it. So everything that you need that? The hardware platform, the storage infrastructure, the actual distribution of the operating system sent the West, for example. We distribute we actually distributed kubernetes distribution upstream and unmodified. And then, very importantly, in the combinations landscape, you have to have a storage subsystem in a networking subsystem using something called C s I container storage interface in C N I. Container networking interface. So we've got that full stack solution. No one else has that. The second thing is the performance. So we do a certain amount of hardware offload. Um, and I would say, Amazons purchase of Annapurna so Amazon about a company called Annapurna its basis of their nitro technology and its little known. But the reality is more than 50% of all new instances at E. C to our hardware assisted with the technology that they thought were offloaded. Yeah, exactly. So we actually offload storage and network processing via to P C I. D cards that can go into any industry server. Right? So today we ship on until whites, >> your hyper converge containers >> were African verge containers. Yeah, exactly. >> So you're selling a box. We sell a box with software that's the >> with software. But increasingly, our customers are asking us to unbundle it. So not dissimilar from the sort of journey that Nutanix went through. If a customer wants to buy and l will support Del customer wants to buy a Lenovo will support Lenovo and we'll just sell >> it. Or have you unbundled? Yetta, you're on bundling. >> We are actively taking orders for on bundling at the present time in this quarter, we have validated Del and Lenovo as alternate platforms, toothy intel >> and subscription revenue. On that, we >> do not yet. But that's the golden mask >> Titanic struggle with. So, yeah, and then they had to take their medicine. >> They did. But, you know, they had to do that as a public company. We're still a private company, so we can do that outside the limelight of the public >> markets. So, um, I'm expecting that you guys gonna get pretty much, um I won't say picked off, but certainly I think your doors are gonna be knocked on by the big guys. Certainly. Delic Deli and see, for instance, I think it's dirty. And you said yes. You're doing business with del name. See, >> um, we are doing as a channel partner and as an OM partner with them at the present time there, I wouldn't call them a customer. >> How do you look at V M were actually there in the V M, where business impact Gelsinger's on the record. It'll be on the Cube, he said. You know Cu Bernays the dial tone of the Internet, they're investing their doubling down on it. They bought Hep D O for half a billion dollars. They're big and cloud native. We expect to see a V M World tons of cloud Native conversation. Yes, good, bad for you. What's the take? The way >> legitimizes what we're doing right? And so obviously, VM, where is a large and successful company? That kind of, you know, legacy and presence in the data center isn't gonna go anywhere overnight. There's a huge set of tooling an infrastructure that bm where has developed in offers to their customers. But that said, I think they've recognized in their acquisition of Hep Theo is is indicative of the fact that they know that the world's moving this way. I think that at the end of the day, it's gonna be up to the customer right. The customer is going to say, Do I want to run containers inside? Of'em? Do I want to run on bare metal? Um, but importantly, I think because of, you know, the impact of the cloud providers in particular. If you think of the lingua franca of cloud Native, it's gonna be around Dr Image format. It's gonna be around kubernetes. It's not necessarily gonna be around V M, d K and BMX and E s X right. So these are all very good technologies, but I think increasingly, you know, the open standard and open source community >> people kubernetes on switches directly is no. No need, Right. Have anything else there? So I gotta ask you on the customer equation. You mentioned you, you get so you're taking orders. How you guys doing business today? Where you guys winning, given example of of why people while you're winning And then for anyone watching, how would they know if they should be a customer of yours? What's is there like? Is there any smoke signs and signals? Inside the enterprise? They mentioned batch to one hour. That's just music. Just a lot of financial service is used, for instance, you know they have timetables, and whether they're pulling back ups back are doing all the kinds of things. Timing's critical. What's the profile customer? Why would someone call you? What's the situation? The >> profile is heavy duty production requirements to run in both the developer context and an operating contact container in kubernetes based workloads on premises. They're compatible with the cloud right so increasingly are controlled. Plane makes it easy to manage workloads not just on premises but also back and forth to the public cloud. So I would argue that essentially all Fortune 500 companies Global 1000 companies are all wrestling with what's the right way to implement industry standard X 86 based hardware on site that supports containers and kubernetes in his cloud compatible Right? So that that is the number one question then, >> so I can buy a box and or software put it on my data center. Yes, and then have that operate with Amazon? Absolutely. Or Google, >> which is the beauty of the kubernetes standards, right? As long as you are kubernetes certified, which we are, you can develop and run any workload on our gear on the cloud on anyone else that's carbonated certified, etcetera. So you know that there isn't >> given example the workload that would be indicative. >> So Well, I'll cite one customer, Right. So, um, the reason that I feel confident actually saying the name is that they actually sort of went public with us at the recent Gardner conference a week or so ago when the customer is Duke Energy. So very typical trajectory of journey for a customer like this, which is? A couple years ago, they decided that they wanted re factor some legacy applications to make them more resilient to things like hurricanes and weather events and spikes in demand that are associated with that. And so they said, What's the right thing to do? And immediately they pick containers and kubernetes. And then he went out and they looked at five different vendors, and we were the only vendor that got their POC up and running in the required time frame and hit all five use case scenarios that they wanted to do right. So they ended up a re factoring core applications for how they manage power outages using containers and kubernetes, >> a real production were real. Production were developing standout, absolutely in a sandbox, pushing into production, working Absolutely. So you sounds like you guys were positioned to handle any workload. >> We can handle any workload, but I would say that where we shine is things that transaction the intensive because we have the hardware assist in the I o off load for the storage and the networking. You know, the most demanding applications, things like databases, things like analytics, things like messaging, Kafka and so forth are where we're really gonna >> large flow data, absolutely transactional data. >> We have customers that are doing simpler things like C I. C D. Which at the end of the day involves compiling things right and in managing code bases. But so we certainly have customers in less performance intensive applications, but where nobody can really touch us in morning. What I mean is literally sort of 10 to 30 times faster than something that Nutanix could do, for example, is just So >> you're saying you're 30 times faster Nutanix >> absolutely in trans actually intensive applications >> just when you sell a prescription not to dig into this small little bit. But does the customer get the hardware assist on that as well >> it is. To date, we've always bundled everything together. So the customers have automatically got in the heart >> of the finest on the hard on box. Yes. If I buy the software, I got a loaded on a machine. That's right. But that machine Give me the hardware. >> You will not unless you have R two p C I. D. Cards. Right? And so this is how you know we're just in the very early stages of negotiating with companies like Dell to make it easy for them to integrate her to P. C. I. D cards into their server platform. >> So the preferred flagship is the is the device. It's a think if they want the hardware sit, that they still need to software meeting at that intensive. It's right. If they don't need to have 30 times faster than Nutanix, they can just get the software >> right, right. And that will involve RCS. I plug in RCN I plug in our OS distribution are kubernetes distribution, and the control plane that manages kubernetes clusters >> has been great to get the feature on new company, um, give a quick plug for the company. What's your objectives? Were you trying to do. I'll see. Probably hiring. Get some financing, Any news, Any kind of Yeah, we share >> will be. And we will be announcing some news about financing. I'm not prepared to announce that today, but we're in very good shape with respected being funded for our growth. Um, and consequently, so we're now in growth mode. So today we're 55 people. I want to double back over the course of the next 4/4 and increasingly just sort of build out our sales force. Right? We didn't have a big enough sales force in North America. We've gotta establish a beachhead in India. We do have one large commercial banking customer in Europe right now. Um, we also have a large automotive manufacturer in a pack. But, um, you know, the total sales and marketing reach has been too low. And so a huge focus of what I'm doing now is building out our go to market model and, um, sort of 10 Xing the >> standing up, a lot of field going, going to market. How about on the biz, Dev side? I might imagine that you mentioned delicate. Imagine that there's a a large appetite for the hardware offload >> absolution? Absolutely. So something is. Deb boils down to striking partnerships with the cloud providers really on two fronts, both with respect the hardware offload and assist, but also supporting their on premises strategy. So Google, for example, is announced. Antos. This is their approach to supporting, you know, on premises, kubernetes workloads and how they interact with cool cloud. Right. As you can imagine, Microsoft and Amazon also have on premises aspirations and strategies, and we want to support those as well. This goes well beyond something like Amazon Outpost, which is really a narrow use case in point solution for certain markets. So cloud provider partnerships are very important. Exit E six server vendor partnership. They're very important. And then major, I s V. So we've announced some things with red hat. We were at the Red Hat Open summit in Boston a few months ago and announced our open ship project and product. Um, that is now G a. Also working with eyes, he's like Maria de be Mondo di B Splunk and others to >> the solid texting product team. You guys are solid. You feel good on the product. I feel very good about the product. What aboutthe skeptics are out there? Just to put the hard question to use? Man, it's crowded field. How do you gonna compete? What do you chances? How do you like your chances known? That's a very crowded field. You're going to rely on your fastballs, they say. And on the speed, what's the what's What's your thinking? Well, it's unique. >> And so part of the way or approve point that I would cite There is the channel, right? So when you go to the channel and channel is afraid that you're gonna piss off Del or E M. C or Net app or Nutanix or somebody you know, then they're not gonna promote you. But our channel partners air promoting us and talking about companies like Life Boat at the distribution level. Talking about companies like CD W S H. I, um, you know, W W t these these major North American distributors and resellers have basically said, Look, we have to put you in our line car because you're unique. There is no other purpose built >> and why that, like they get more service is around that they wrap service's around it. >> They want to kill the murder where they want to. Wrap service's around it, absolutely, and they want to do migrations from legacy environments towards Micro Service's etcetera. >> Great to have you on share the company update. Just don't get personal. If you don't mind personal perspective. You've been on the hardware side. You've seen the large scale data centers from racquetball and that experience you'll spit on the software side. Open source. What's your take on the industry right now? Because you're seeing, um, I talked a lot of sea cells around the security space and, you know, they all say, Oh, multi clouds a bunch of B s because I'm not going to split my development team between four clouds. I need to have my people building software stacks for my AP eyes, and then I go to the vendors. They support my AP eyes where you can't be a supplier. Now that's on the sea suicide. But the big mega trend is there's software stacks being built inside the premise of the enterprise. Yes, that not mean they had developers before building. You know, Kobol, lapse in the old days, mainframes to client server wraps. But now you're seeing a Renaissance of developers building a stack for the domain specific applications that they need. I think that requires that they have to run on premise hyper scale like environment. What's your take on it >> might take is it's absolutely right. There is more software based innovation going on, so customers are deciding to write their own software in areas where they could differentiate right. They're not gonna do it in areas that they could get commodities solutions from a sass standpoint or from other kinds of on Prem standpoint. But increasingly they are doing software development, but they're all 99% of the time now. They're choosing doctor and containers and kubernetes as the way in which they're going to do that, because it will run either on Prem or in the Cloud. I do think that multi cloud management or a multi multi cloud is not a reality. Are our primary modality that we see our customers chooses tons of on premises? Resource is, that's gonna continue for the foreseeable future one preferred cloud provider, because it's simply too difficult to to do more than one. But at the same time they want an environment that will not allow themselves to be locked into that cloud bender. Right? So they want a potentially experiment with the second public cloud provider, or just make sure that they adhere to standards like kubernetes that are universally shared so that they can't be held hostage. But in practice, people don't. >> Or if they do have a militant side, it might be applications. Like if you're running office 3 65 right, That's Microsoft. It >> could be Yes, exactly. On one >> particular domain specific cloud, but not core cloud. Have a backup use kubernetes as the bridge. Right that you see that. Do you see that? I mean, I would agree with by the way we agreed to you on that. But the question we always ask is, we think you Bernays is gonna be that interoperability layer the way T c p I. P was with an I p Networks where you had this interoperability model. We think that there will be a future state of some point us where I could connect to Google and use that Microsoft and use Amazon. That's right together, but not >> this right. And so nobody's really doing that today, But I believe and we believe that there is, ah, a future world where a vendor neutral vendor, neutral with respect to public cloud providers, can can offer a hybrid cloud control plane that manages and brokers workloads for both production, as well as data protection and disaster recovery across any arbitrary cloud vendor that you want to use. Um, and so it's got to be an independent third party. So you know you're never going to trust Amazon to broker a workload to Google. You're never going to trust Google to broker a workload of Microsoft. So it's not gonna be one of the big three. And if you look at who could it be? It could be VM where pivotal. Now it's getting interesting. Appertaining. Cisco's got an interesting opportunity. Red hats got an interesting opportunity, but there is actually, you know, it's less than the number of companies could be counted on one hand that have the technical capability to develop hybrid cloud abstraction that that spans both on premises and all three. And >> it's super early. Had to peg the inning on this one first inning, obviously first inning really early. >> Yeah, we like our odds, though, because the disruption, the fundamental disruption here is containers and kubernetes and the interest that they're generating and the desire on the part of customers to go to micro service is so a ton of application re factoring in a ton of cloud native application development is going on. And so, you know, with that kind of disruption, you could say >> you're targeting opening application re factoring that needs to run on a cloud operating >> model on premise in public. That's correct. In a sense, dont really brings the cloud to theon premises environment, right? So, for example, we're the only company that has the concept of on premises availability zones. We have synchronous replication where you can have multiple clusters that air synchronously replicated. So if one fails the other one, you have no service disruption or loss of data, even for a state full application, right? So it's cloud like service is that we're bringing on Prem and then providing the links, you know, for both d. R and D P and production workloads to the public Cloud >> block locked Unpack with you guys. You might want to keep track of humaneness. Stateville date. It's a whole nother topic, as stateless data is easy to manage with AP Eyes and Service's wouldn't GET state. That's when it gets interesting. Com Part in the CEO. The new chief executive officer. Demonte Day How long you guys been around before you took over? >> About five years. Four years before me about been on board about a year. >> I'm looking forward to tracking your progress. We'll see ya next week and seven of'em Real Tom Barton, Sea of de Amante Here inside the Cube Hot startup. I'm John Ferrier. >> Thanks for watching.

>> live from Boston, Massachusetts. It's the Cube covering A W s reinforce 2019. Brought to you by Amazon Web service is and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back. Everyone were accused Live coverage here in Boston, Massachusetts, for AWS reinforce. First inaugural conference runs security. I'm Jeffrey. David Lot there. Next guest is Dan Hubbard, CEO of lacework. I've started at a Mountain View, California. Great to have you on. Thanks for joining us. >> Thanks. Thanks for having me. >> So, you know, reinvent was developers Reinforces. Kind of like, si SOS coding security cloud and intersecting with security. This is a new kind of show. What's your take on? >> Super impressed so far? I mean, there's about 1000 people here, you know, way have literally hundreds of demos lined up in the booth s oh, really impressed so far. First impressions. >> It's a good move for Amazon. Do. Ah, security conference. Don't you think I mean >> really smart, Really smart. It's a lot more about defending than a lot of security conference about offense and vulnerabilities and how to find kind of holes and weak cracks. This is really about how do we defend you know, our security in the cloud >> Talk about your company. Your mission? You guys air started going after a hot space. Si SOS or CEO spending Talk to They want a new breed of supplier service provider. Certainly cloud a p. I is gonna be critical in all of this. So you start to see really smart platform thinking systems, thinking around companies around the security challenge and opportunity. What? What do you guys do? Explain what you guys? >> Yes, we really believed you know, this new wave of cloud I s and pass really needs a new architecture. It's a whole new architecture from a 90 perspective. So we need a new architect from a security perspective. And the great thing about the operating model is you could do a wide set of things and then go deep in the areas that are really important. So at least work does we allow you to secure? I asked. Past service is with compliance configuration host and container security. There's one platform that kind of wraps across all of those >> different targeting developers, right? So they don't have to think about security all the time. Is that the poor thing? >> Yeah, definitely. Eso in almost every case. Security is unlocking the budget. However, Dev Ops is involved, Dev Ops is involved from an influence. But, you know, it used to be that developers would ask security for permission. Now security's going back to developers and asking for permission to security >> infrastructure. He said that with the architecture is gonna be different because the the the I t. Is changing. So cloud security needs a new architecture. One of the fundamentals of that architecture and how is it different from security on prim? >> So I think it has to be SAS. So it's gotta be delivered multi cloud from the cloud. You know, we're gonna secure the cloud. It really should be from the cloud, their business models, that should be different. It's almost always a subscription is not perpetual models. You know you're annually re occurring your revenue. You're always keeping your customers happy and you're always innovating. The pace of innovation has to be really quick because the pace of the cloud is moving at such a dramatic speed. >> So that the those kind of business oriented you know, that's kind of a different definition of architecture. Technically, is it a fundamental do over Or is it fundamentally similar? >> Wolf. You know, there's some of the tenants which are the same, you know, we need to get visibility. That's very similar. You know, we have controls needed have auditing. We need to find threats. However, the way you do it is very different. So you don't own the hardware, you don't own the racks, you don't own the network. You gotta get used to that. You gotta live above the responsibility line. You have to fit within their infrastructure. So what that means is you need to be very happy. I friendly because we're sucking a lot of data on Amazon were pulling in configuration cloudtrail data, and you'll have to be able to deploy inside their infrastructures. We support things like kubernetes things like docker or we also interoperate things like bare metal and you know, in the AM eyes themselves, what >> problem you guys solve. Every startup has that cultural doctor, and they sometimes you weave into a market and also you get visibility into into a key value proper. What's the key problem that you saw? What's the benefit >> so that the key value we solve is if you are in the cloud or migraine in the cloud. We give you compliance configuration and threat protection across all your clowns. So, irrespective of which cloud you live in or operate in, we give you one central threat detection engine and that which gives you visibility but also gives you compliance and controls into that. >> So Amazon has this, you know she had responsibility model. They're they're protecting the compute, the storage, the database and customers are responsible for the end points. The operating system, the data, etcetera, etcetera. And Amazon certainly has tools. Help them. What is fuzzy to me sometimes is you know where eight of us leaves off. Where ecosystem partners like you guys come in. You obvious have to keep moving fast to your point. Absolute. Can you help us sort of squint through that maze? >> Sure. Yeah. I mean, the easiest way that I can explain it is if you could configure it, you have to secure everything. Below is the providers responsibility. That said, there are different areas where things are kind of peeking through the responsibility lines. So what I see is a world where there's not 50 security vendors that you've bought like in premise or traditional data center, but your Inter operating with a provider. So you know, the big three providers open source and then a solution like ours. So it's more about how do we interoperate there together? But what we do is we sit actually right within your container on the host themselves with an agent, and then we suck in there a p I. So technically, it's a little bit different. >> So the threat of containers is an interesting topic, right? You're spinning him up. It makes V M v ems look like child's play. Yeah, So are you using specific techniques, toe? So the fake out the bad guys make it. You're raising the bar on them and their cost using sort of algorithms to do that spin up, spin him down. You know, like the shell game of asking you. >> What we do is we get baked right into your infrastructure every single time you deploy and run through C I c d. A new container or a new app were baked in there and what we're doing, we're looking all your applications, processes the network traffic and then we look for that no one bad and the unknown bad based off of that. >> So it's native security in the container at the point of creation. Not a not an afterthought. Correct. Yep, >> What? Your take on kubernetes landscape? Obviously, pretty much everyone's kind of consolidate around that from a de facto standard. That's good news, wouldn't it? Koen ETS does is all kinds of stateless state full applications that becomes, like service mess conversation. You got all kinds of services that could land out there, automating all these things these sources were being turned on turned off in real time. >> It's >> a log it >> all. It's incredible. I think Cos. Is the fastest growing enterprise open source project ever. You know where every customer we talked to is either in the midst of migrating migrate or just thinking about it. That said, the world is looking to go multi cloud. But most customers today have, ah, a combination of in premise bare metal am eyes kubernetes containers. What we're doing is we give you visibility into your coup Bernays infrastructure. So we talk pods, nodes, clusters, name spaces and we allow you to secure the management plane. Any communication between those So it's really critical when you're deploying those from a security perspective that you know what's happening. The ephemeral nature of it is very different from regular security to you need to answer questions like what happened for 10 minutes during this time from six months ago, and that's really hard with traditional >> tools, really are. And that's really gonna with automation plays in Talk about the journey of where your customers are going out because we're seeing a progression kind of categorically three kind of levels. I really wanted to go to the cloud. I really want to convince you that cloud every aspiration. Yeah, not realistic, but it's on their plans. Then you've got people who go out and do it gets stuck in the mud. The wheels are spinning culturally, whatever's going on and then full on cloud native hard core Dev ops, eaten glass, spit nails, just kicking ass and taking names right? So you get the leaders. People are kind of in the middle, and then people jumping in. Where do you guys see your benefit? What are some of the challenges? How do you guys >> think it's a super dynamic marketplace? Because what's happening is every big company that may not be fully cloud native, is buying companies that are cloud native. So then they become the sexy new way to deploy, and then they start figure out how to deploy their there. So one of the trains were seeing is core centralized. Security is becoming governance and tooling, and then they're distributing the security function within the AP teams themselves. And that model seems to work really well because you've got security practitioners baked within the Dev Ops team. But then you've got a governing roll with tooling, centralized tooling from there. That said, depending on the customer or the prospect, it's all over the place. You know, many sisters, you're scratching their heads saying, No, you know, I don't know what's going over the cloud guys. They've got a different group that's running it. They're trying to figure out how do I just get visibility? I know my name's you know, I'm the one they're gonna come after if there's a problem. So it's really all over the place >> for your service. So you're baking it in creatively into the container. >> Yep, it doesn't matter. >> You're aware, if you will. >> It is a matter of urine premise or not. Containers or not, we worked across all of them. >> Was that the hook for your sort of original idea? Your business plan? Your investors you've raised, I think 32,000,000. You got 70 employees. What was that hook? What attracted the investment Community >> Theory journal? Idea was, if you're deployed in the cloud and you have a breach, how do you know you had a breach? Things that happen to come and go very quickly. All the data's encrypted on the network. I don't have full visibility on the network itself. So that was the original idea. How would I go back in time kind of time machine to find out what happened then? Way originally supported eight of us and it was really about visibility within 80 bus infrastructure. Then kubernetes happened. Now the big hook really is amazing containers. Am I using kubernetes? And then how do I make sure I'm compliant and then following best practices and then that breach that breach scenario still definitely happens. Everybody tries the service before they buy it. They're almost always finding out problems along the way. >> What did kubernetes do for you guys? That made a consensus step, function, change or what you guys were doing? Was it because they had the dynamic nature of the service's was orchestration? What specifically was the benefit? >> I think the orchestration, the single management plane from a security perspective, is one of the big things. You get access to that one brain, if you will. You have access to everything. Obviously, the ephemeral workload is big that it was enforcement kubernetes with service messes. Things like pot security policies allows us to hook a P eyes in a way that you can actually write enforcement versus a firewall or some of these old school ways of killing packets. >> Yes, you got a cloud native approach. Kubernetes comes along. It's aligns with your sort of philosophy and >> architectural, and we run today's ourselves. So our entire infrastructure is based off of kubernetes. We were kubernetes user very early on, so, you know, we just take the things that we learn to our customers. >> So here's a quote from a seesaw. I won't say his or her name, but I want to get your reaction to it when talking about dealing with suppliers, looking for the new generation of like what you guys are doing you got, I would put you in the new classification of emerging suppliers. This is the message to all the suppliers in the room. I happen to be in there having a P I and don't have its suck because you eyes shifting to a p a u ie Focus is shifting to FBI focus. So we are evaluating every supplier on their eight b. I's your reaction to that? >> I absolutely agree. So there's two levels of AP eyes. One is you have to interrupt it with the guys from the providers in order to get the data properly. Right. That's a big, big component. Others, you have to have a P eyes for your consumers. You can't automate without a P I. So that's really critical. That said, I will disagree a little bit on the u X and Y aspect. If you are triaging data, it's really important that you have the right data at the right time and visualizing that data in a ways. It's pretty important. >> How real is multi cloud, in your opinion, I mean, everybody's talking about multi cloud Ah la times we've said multi cloud. It's none of us a symptom of multi vendor. But increasingly it could be a strategy in terms of your thinking about your total available market, your market opportunity. How real is it when you're conversations with Coast? >> It's very really. We were really surprised. We first started supporting eight of us, and then we had a G, C, P and Azure together. Now we have a core principle that everything we build has to be parody across all the clouds. And we had a huge uptick across G, C, P and as your very early. So we were really surprised. What we were surprised about was, it's not portable workloads. So it's not about taking one application distributed across multi cloud. That's kind of fiction. That doesn't happen very often. It's either you bought a company that's in another cloud or use a past service in another cloud, or you have just two totally disparate applications in a large company. They just happen to be in different clouds in the data's in different places. They don't need to interoperate, so it's so it's just a little different, but we're seeing kind >> of horses for courses as well, right? Some clouds may be better for data oriented. >> Here's your point early, and we've heard this in some of the sea. So conversations em and becomes a big factor because they get new teams in new culture and they might have different cloud approaches. But I totally agree with you on that. I would say I would even go more further and saying It's absolute fiction between multi Cloud because it's just got a latent seizes on the connections, whether they're direct connections are not welcome on the factor. So I've always said, and I kind of believe in I'd love to get your thoughts on. It is the workload should dictate to the infrastructure which clouded should you know, and go with one cloud for that. If it makes sense on, then use multi cloud across workloads and low can handle a better cloud. Cloud Cloud selection. Be joined by the workload. >> Yeah, it's certainly from an out >> the other way around. >> Yeah, it's certainly from application perspective. You want a silo? It, you know, probably there. I think what's interesting about a lot of the work each provider is doing in security a lot people ask. Well, you know, why don't I just use all my provider security tools. And the answer is they got some great tools. You should use those for sure, but there is a bunch of technology above that you can use. And then you got a span across multiple clouds. What you don't want is three different AP eyes for security across every single cloud. That's gonna be a major pain or >> have to stitch. And that's where you guys come in. Absolutely. >> What's your take on this show? Reinforce against inaugural show. Love to go. The knuckle shows they don't have a 2nd 1 because they were there. Yeah, reinvent you made a calm before we came on. Reinvents started out. We were there early on as well. There's developers. Yeah, it wasn't a lot of fanfare. In fact, you could wander around Andy Jazz. It wasn't crowded. It all great, great time. That was younger. Now Amazons gotten much stronger. Bigger? What's the vibe here? Is that developers for security? Is it si SOS? Is it? What's your read on the makeup and the focus of the attendees? >> So I think it's it's a little bit of a mix of both, which I think is good you know, I've met a number of developers or what I would call kind of new breed security engineers. These are engineers that arm or interested in? How does the cloud work an inter operate? And how do you secure that versus, like reverse engineering malware with assembler, which you know a lot of the other places there really about the threats? And what of the threats and how specific or those This is really a little bit more about? How do we up our game from from a security perspective in this New World order, which is really >> get plowed. Very agile, very fast, yet horizontally scalable, elastic, all the goodness of cloud Final question developers Bottom line is developers continue to code and do the things, whether it's a devil's culture of having a hack a phone and testing new things, that which is how things roll now, getting into productions hard. What's the developers impact to security? Is the trend coming out of the show that security baked in enough to think about it like how configuration management took that track and Dev Ops took that away? You mentioned that earlier you figure you can secure it yet. So similar track for security going the way of automation. What's your? >> It's a lot of automation is gonna be critical for sure. And then it's gonna be a combination of Security and Dev ops together, you know, Call it DEP SEC Ops, code security engineer. Whatever you want to call it, it's definitely a combination of both. Security people are going away, that's for sure. You know, we're still gonna need security experts. And focus is just a critical aspect about this. >> Dan, Thanks for the insight coming on here. Reinforced. Take a quick second. Give a plug for your company. What you guys looking to do? Your hiring? What's going on? The company? >> Sure lacework. We're gonna help you protect all your workloads, Your configuration. Compliance in the cloud regardless of which cloud way are hiring websites lacework dot com and way love Thio culture Their cultures great, Very fast moving very fast paced, very modern way live and breathe by the success of our customers It's a subscription business. So now we have to continue innovating and renewing. Our customers >> got smart probably to get dealing combination containers. Thanks for coming on. Your coverage here live in Boston. General David, Want to stay tuned for more live coverage after this short break

why from Boston Massachusetts it's the queue covering Red Hat summit 2019 watch you bye Red Hat well good morning welcome back to our live coverage here in Boston with the BCC and we're at Red Hat summit 2019 you're watching exclusive coverage here on the cube this is day three of three great days here at the summit's two minimun John wall's and we're joined now by Paul Cormier who's the president of products and technologies at Red Hat good morning Paul morning how are you doing I'm doing great great so are we a wonderful job on the on the keynote stage yesterday and we're gonna jump into that a little bit but I wanted to run something by you here a great man once said every great achievement begins with a bold goal I heard that I'm looking at that man yeah so one of the many statements that I thought really jumped out yesterday let's talk about that in terms of just the Red Hat philosophy what's happened with rl8 where you've gone with openshift for and just how that is embedded in your mind to how red hat goes about its business well you know we've we've we've been in the enterprise space for 17 plus years and prior to that red had you know we were basically through the retail through the retail channel but first and foremost Red Hat started as an open source company that's where they started not as an enterprise company once we decided with the bold goal that we're gonna get this into the enterprise that's what we really set you know really transformed into what you've maybe heard before from out of my mouth is where we're we're not an open source company although everything we do is open source for an enterprise software company with an open source development model that was kind of the beginning of the first bold goal let's get Linux to the enterprise and so that's sort of how we've thought about it from day one is let's take it one step at a time you know as I said get Linux in the enterprise make make rel the operating system in the enterprise now let's take on virtualization versus n then KVM and then as that all happens so much innovation happened around Linux that all these other pieces came you know Hadoop kubernetes all the other pieces so we just kept growing with that because it's all intertwined with Linux that's one step at a time so Paul before we get off this place I want you to put a fine point on it for our audience because you look out there you know open source is not a community it's lots of communities and it's not you know one thing it's many things out there and today people will look at there's certain companies how do I create IP and monetize what we're doing and you know where the project and the company are you know sometimes intertwined and licensing models changing you know Red Hat has a very simple philosophy on it and it's not something that's necessarily easily replicatable yeah I mean there's simple simple philosophy is it so it's it's upstream first that that's that's our philosophy yes we are a business and certainly making our products successful is is is important number number number one goal number zero goal before that is make the project successful our products can't be successful unless we're we're built on a successful project and it's not something that we even think about because it's just ingrained it's it's it's in our DNA so I mean I'll give you examples you know even kubernetes we didn't start the project Google started the project but we knew in order if we were going to incorporate that in a big way into our products that we had to be prominent in the community so that's what we did first and then it rolled out into the products it's just ingrained it's in the DNA yeah so let's talk a little bit about kubernetes openshift you've now got over a thousand customers congratulations on that and openshift for we spent a bunch of time talking with the team but let's start a little bit higher level because you know there's dozens of you know kubernetes options out there people look at is there interoperability between them you know in the early days customers would just spin their own pieces and on you know today every cloud provider has at least one option if not multiple options and there's all the independent how does this play out you know where are we along the maturity and how do all these pieces fit together or do they I mean if you look if you look at kubernetes I mean the thing here's the the good news the good news is open source has become so prominent in in everywhere we wear now ourselves included we make this mistake ourselves we've confused projects with products so kubernetes is a project it's a development project and we all talk about that like it's a product the same it's the same thing with Linux so I'll give you an example with the Linux kernel where all you know all the commercial vendors and everyone else is in that same upstream development tree with the Linux kernel but when the commercial guys like ourselves when we go to build a product we make choices of which file systems we're going to support which installers we're going to support you know what we're gonna do for management what we're gonna support for storage and for many reasons we all make different decisions so that's why at the end of the day when we come down to our products even though they're all completely open you know rel is different from Susu which is different from a bun too which is different from all the others it's the same exact thing with kubernetes we all develop here but now we bring that down into a platform like open shift that kubernetes touches userspace api's it such as kernel a api's and so unless you you integrate those and they all move forward in the lifecycle of that platform at the same time we get out of sync with each other and that's one of the reasons why it's a product and they don't necessarily work across each other with you know with all the other products it's the same exact principle that made rel and at the same exact principle how linux works right so what advice do you give to customers is how they look at this because they're like oh wait there's now azure an open shift this jointly offered solution but do I use that or Duty as the native you know aks solution out there you've got partnership to the AWS you know where does open shift versus anthos on google fit it's it definitely is a little bit fragmented well the other thing that's happened around the cloud one of the things that happened in early in the cloud a lot of the cloud providers said every applications going to the cloud tomorrow I think that was ten years ago and the last number I thought sorry we're about 20 percent there and so and that's great we think that's great but customers still have on-premise applications and they have a running on-premise either bare metal virtual machine they have their own private clouds in many cases and now they want to go across clouds every customer I talked to and it's not just for lock-in that's definitely an issue they want to go across clouds because this cloud provider might have a better service here than that cloud provider and vice versa so what customers want to do is they want one common operating environment both of the applications developer in the operators they can't afford to have five different silos because just like the example I used with Linux distributions being different every one of these kubernetes distributions is different and so anthos for example if you're gonna have all your applications including bare metal applications on Google Linux then that's good because your operators have one operating environment you developers have one development environment but that's impractical and that's why that's that's not gonna work I mean the reason why I think Microsoft is one of our best partners here is they understand this which is why they've embraced openshift so so deeply even though they have aks in their stable and the reason why I think they understand this is because they like us have been in the enterprise space for a long time this is how enterprise computing works and I think that's the model that our customers they don't have no choice to deploy they just can't afford to have five different you know operating environments it's like the UNIX days it's like the UNIX days all over again and you know when you had one vertical stack and you know customers started to roll out a common fact that's why Rell succeeded because we gave them that commonality and they couldn't afford five different silos to try to manage and develop their applications to you know is there a different rhythm or unique rhythm to the open source community in terms of development in terms of new products that might be a little different than then old older models because you know if I'm saying if I if there's an interest that focuses maybe in one area and the interests of ER you know or momentum shifts over to a different direction and and maybe this standard or this old way kind of loses a little bit of its impetus or its force I mean what that creates decision challenges on customer sign but but absolutely and and that's why as they said even with kubernetes we didn't jump in full force exactly right away you know we sort of we sort of worked in many of it with many container orchestration technologies out there most of which besides kubernetes are gone by the wayside a bit now and you know we sort of sort of look at that and see where this plays out well we get involved but we also try to make make the best technical decision as well kubernetes now it's got way too much momentum in in in the in with open source because it's got so much momentum that's where the innovation is happening and at the end of the day customers even though they have confused many projects with products they still want they still want the right technology to solve their business business problems right and so cuckoo Bernays has so much momentum around it that's where the innovation is happening so that's that's that's the plot that's the big part of the platform right now and so I think that's the other thing I think that a lot of people that try to jump into this space miss is if you're gonna base your enterprise product on an upstream project you better have good influence in that upstream project because when your customers ask you to address an issue or or take it in a direction or help take it in the direction if you don't have that influence you can't satisfy your customers so we learned very very early on that upstream is is not a bolt-on for us it's an integral part that starts even before the product starts so Paul I've heard many people often call Red Hat the Switzerland of IT you know being where you sit in the community and you know for years at this show we've interviewed you know all of the hardware players and everything like that sorry sorry I'm taking important calls it's no worries you know live audience can wait we'll show you the clip of John Cleese when we got interrupted on a program once we won't think was my admin telling me I needed to come here you're good but so you know with Red Hat starting as that as that Switzerland when I look at the multi cloud world its you've got interesting combination you know Satya Nadella up on stage is not something that we would have thought of right five years ago so you know VMware supporting OpenShift announced today is not something that many people will look at and be like oh geez you know that seems surprising to me because you know we have you know fights over virtualization or various piece of the stack what do you see in kind of the software and multi cloud world today that's maybe a little different than it was five or ten years ago I think I mean to VMware's credit they're trying to satisfy their customers and their customers are saying I want OpenShift and so we we work with trying to satisfy our customers to the Microsoft arrangement I mean as you guys probably well know we weren't the best of friends you know five six seven eight years ago and I think Satya said it on stage and they our customers got us together literally we had a set of big customers that almost took us in a room and said you guys need to talk and and frankly I think they're one of our best partners right now I'm not sure it could have happened without Satya but they're one of our best partners because we're both interested in satisfying our customers in and as I said I think Microsoft really understands the enterprise world and that's why we're going in the common direction we almost when we get in the room with their engineers we almost complete each other's sentences of you know when we start talking about what we need to do you know there's been an announcement early in the week ahead of a global economic study done IDC came up with this huge number right 10 trillion dollar impact that Linux is having globally speaking just if you would just curious about your perspective on that what kind of a statement that is and and the dollar values that are achieved or the incremental values that are achieved in terms of applying these technology I think it's a couple things I think I think it's a statement that this is the innovation most so open-source is the innovation model going forward period end of story full stop and I think as I said in my keynote yesterday you know leading up to the the biggest acquisition ever for a software company not an open-source software coming a software company that happened to be an open-source software company I don't think there's any doubt that that open source has one here here today it and it's because of the pace of innovation I mean yes I mean we've been at rel for 17 plus years well we probably spent the first third or so without 17 plus years trying to convince the world that Linux was secure and it was stable and it was ready for the enterprise once we got through that hurdle it was just off to the races from there and kubernetes what you know I said yesterday containers came on the scene although they've been here technically for a long time they came on the scene in 14 herba Nettie's in 15 it's only 2019 it's really not that far downstream where were as you said we've got a thousand commercial customers and the keynote this morning talking about some of the use cases that we're solving with with OpenShift I mean Boston Children's Hospital is just unbelievable of what they can do in a matter of a week that used to take them a matter of a month to do right that's because of the innovation model we have dr. Ellen Grant on yesterday by the way so if you haven't watched that yet go back to the cube net and check that interview out yeah I mean fascinating kind of customer conversation we've had about transformation but want to get your take on the only constant in our industry which is change I wrote right after the the announcement of the acquisition and meeting with your changes Red Hat the one thing that they've actually built themselves for is to deal with the massive amounts of change you know you could tell better than more how fast the Linux kernel is changing you know a third of the codes changed in the last two years and kubernetes is actually not as many lines of code as Linux but it's massive amounts of change I heard you know we relate out to about five years of development on that I heard the the pace going forward will only get faster every three years you're gonna have a major release every six months right a minor release so how do you get the team in the community and all these things you know ever keeping up and even turning it up to 11 that day that's that's probably the one of the biggest parts of our job our customers can't deal with that change you know frankly I think in the bidding beginning of OpenStack one of the one of the mistakes that we as a community did for our customers was there were some vendors out there trying to tell customers you need to stay close to the head to the upstream head you need to stay close to the head and we really all try to get things out in six months that's great to try to start to evaluate innovation and how what you can do with that it's not great for necessarily running a stable business on and that's what and that's what I think our job is is to help our customers consume open-source developed technologies in a way that they can continue to run their business and that was the goal that was the audacious goal of rel from the beginning is that the model of rel it's in it's no I it's it's not necessarily about the bits because they're free it's about the life cycle of that and how we can help our customers consume that and that's what we do that frankly it to the core well just to follow up on that if you ask your customer and you say hey you're using Azure what version you are using they're like Microsoft patches and updates that constantly as opposed to the traditional you know Patch Tuesday in Windows so you know we seem to be closing that gap a little but it's challenging between the stuff I control and the stuff that I consume well we'll look at even OpenShift for we used I mean I know ashesh was on yesterday talking about that but we used a lot of the great technology we got from core OS to start to bring that model bet on to even on premise if you so choose with open shift because there's so many of the components that are that are intertwined with each other you know you've got kubernetes with talking the user space talking the kernel user space talking to the kernel talking the storage talking to networking so now automating that for our customers for that updates is is is what they want because that's how they consume it in the cloud I remember when we first started rel we used to put the the features on the side of the box and the first thing was what version of the kernel it was that quickly went away - they don't want to have to worry about that because they don't have the expertise to do to be added' eyewire themselves well congratulations Paul great week thank you very much again well done now on the keynote stage yesterday fascinating stuff this morning - so well done on the program inside and we wish you look down the road and don't forget to check your voicemail no I will thank you guys very much might be important all right always a pleasure back with more here from Red Hat summit 2019 you're watching us live here on the Q [Music]

>> Oh, from our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley. Palo ALTO, California.  This is a Cube Conversation. >> Hello Everyone. Welcome to this special cube conversation. I'm Childfree, host of The Cube, cofounder of Silicon Angle Media Inc and the Cube. We're here with Andy Cunningham, who is the president and founder of Cunning in collective and also the author of the book. Get to ah ha! Bestseller on line four categories on Amazon E book. Great book. I recommend all Andy. Welcome to the Cube. Great to see you. >> Hey, it's great to be here. Good to see you. You're a thought >> leader. Just what you've been. You've seen many ways of innovation. You've done so much in your career. >> Big, minimal experience. And >> we were all old here. We've no ageism issues here. It's silken angle, but But you've done so much on DH communications and PR. PR is part of communications. You've you've seen it all. You've done it all. And now you're helping cos I've got a great book out, which I recommend everyone should get getting toe really kind of breaks down thirty five years of experience into one book. That you had a talk about the book on your firm for stuff about Connie and collected quick pleasure. >> So Cunningham  >> Collective is a small marketing consultancy that focuses on positioning, which in my opinion, is the epicenter of marketing. If you dont position yourself well for success, you're never going to achieve success. So the >> book is >> about a framework for figuring out how to position yourself. And it's a framework I developed probably around seventeen years ago. But I've been using it over the last seventy years with clients, and I find that it's super successful, especially with technology companies, and because it's an actual step by step sort of framework. So the book tells you how to do it. And then there were six case studies at the back of the book that >> show >> Positioning in action. >> I want to get a book at some specific questions on the positioning, but I want to get your take on because you've seen many waves around PR public relations, which is corporate communications and communications in general. Over the years, where are we now? Because you're seeing you know, the media business change face. What's on the front page? Of all the news these days around how they sucked all the data in and fake news. All these things are happening Cos still need to get the word out. You know, New Channel's new realities take us through how you see the evolution of what the old way is in the new way are of communications. >> So PR was >> actually invented by a guy in the nineteen twenties named Eddie Bernays. And Eddie Bernays actually figured out that if you created a stunt like situation, you could get the journalist to cover it. He was very strategic about it. It sounds, sounds kind of, you know, loopy. But he was very strategic about it, and he actually invented the concept that he actually went to the phrase public relations, and he was modeling it after propaganda. That was the that was where he came up with that phrase. So it was like that for quite a long time until we got into an era of what I would call influence her marketing, you know, now we call it influencer marketing. But back in the you know when when there was a lot of investigative journalism going on, it was really just about who's who are the influencers that you need to influence in order to get them to say what you want them to say about your company or your product. So that was what my old boss, Regis McKenna called that, he said. She said, Journalism, if you're going to launch something into the marketplace, you need to get all the he said. And the she says to say what you want them to say before you actually say it yourself, because the journalists are gonna go back to those people and they're going to corroborate your story or not. So the idea was influenced the influencers. And then you can get your story that lasted for about probably thirty years, that era. Now we're in an era, then I call it's the era of content, marketing. And really, what happens today is you almost don't even need the journalists at all, because first of all, there aren't very many of them left. And second of all, there are so many channels available to ourselves as as communicators that if you build a digital footprint that has a great story and it that is compelling and consistent, and you keep saying the same key messages over and over again, you can build yourself a digital footprint that actually becomes starts to take over the word of mouth that we talked about earlier because we're the mouth is really what it's all about. But word of mouth hap and today because from results from a giant digital footprint about your story. >> I remember back in business school back in the day in the nineties when I got my MBA advertising class would break down. You need to copy strategy because, you know, reach media, print ads and radio really was the old school media and frequency was was a certain first radio print. You have time to read it so all the specs get laid out. Reaches reach, Right? So you broadcast cable or TV? The impression >> yeah, kind of digital brings >> everything kind of weaves it all together, but you mentioned frequency. Why is frequencies so important? Because is that because of the targeting, is that because there's not a lot of reaches more specialized? >> Well, it's still it's still the same reason. >> So there's a thing called the marketing rule of seven, and that means that a person needs to hear your message seven times before it. It seeps into their brain, and they actually either decide to do something about it or not do something about it. But that's what creates awareness seven times. So that still is true today as it was before. But now it's so much easier because now you don't have to buy ads to do it. You don't even have to pay a PR person to do it. You just fill your own social channels, your own website, your own blog's your own vlogs, your own video. You just fill up your own personal channels, however many there that you have with your own story. And then once it's out there as a digital footprint, then it's time to start talking to the journalism community, which is smaller than it used to be. But those who are left are pretty good. The Washington Post is pretty good. The New York Times is pretty good. So you call up the guy at The New York Times and you pitched him on your story, and instead of trying to spend a bunch of time pitching him, you just refer him back to someone of your channels. He Googles that he gets online, and he sees, Oh, my God, there's a giant story here because you've built the story. So you have so much more controlled today. We have so much more control over our stories. >> So the way to pitch, then based on what you're saying is to have the raw materials out there so they can make their story >> exactly. Put it together. We put it >> out there, and then the journalists just find it. It's like an Easter egg hunt. Look under that tree >> there. Well, here's a clip >> of an expert that's talking about something you might be interested in. This is the new model. Have the assets. Well, actually, we we love that came in what we do. But I want to get that to the book and the years of experience you have on this. But before we do that, I got to ask you when I was watching the Steve Jobs movie. You know, you're on the stage and you're part of that. >> You must get, well, an actress actress once you get your >> role. You were very instrumental, hectic days, people who know Steve and know the apple days. What >> did you >> learn from that? That's in the book from the Apple days. And how does and what has changed from the apple days. Now is there some things that are similar to the world's changed. But what are some of the key those key Learnings that that those magical moments. >> So my biggest >> key learning was ice. We spent about six months? Was Steve working on the messaging for the launch of the Macintosh, and we got it down to a Siri's of what I would I now call means that were just very, very. The computer for the rest of us was one of them, right? Everybody remembers that one small footprint was another one nobody remembers. Any more easy to use was another one. There was a Siri's of these things to explain the Macintosh. We then went through a process of educating one hundred journalists about about that and pumping them with those key messages at every juncture. Then we go to De Anza College and we did the big launch. We said those messages again and was a bunch of TV people around and everybody you know, everybody reported on it and I'm driving home in the car. After the show was over with, I turn on the radio and there's the messages that I had written, coming back at me over and over and again and change the station. Same thing over and over again. The Macintosh was launched today, and this is what everyone is saying. The same thing is, it was it gave me chills. It was like, Wow, this really works. And that lesson that I learned with Steve is the same lesson Eddie Bernays learned a hundred years ago. Its the same lesson Regis McKenna learned with influencing the influencers. And it's the same lesson people can learn today. You just you just get too. You get, too, ah ha! With a slightly different strategy. And today it's about building a big digital footprint before you ever talk to anybody. >> And I think this is key to the book of one of the things that you mentioned earlier. That's clearly in the book, and this is a lesson for the folks. Watching on and learn from this is that positioning is critical. Before the branding, the knee jerk reaction from most people. A new person Let's re branded system New Low goes out there. You're taking it a contrarian view on >> the sea >> or race on experience and success. Position first brand later or had second thoughts on that Wise wise is so important, specific successes you had. But what other reasons are important? >> Well, I got I learned this because >> the first part of my career I would I would get called in after somebody had already hired a branding firm and they re branded everything, Got a new new logo. New tagline, new color palette, all of this stuff and a few bits of copy that were really sexy and interesting. But they were finding it wasn't sticking. It wasn't making a difference in their in their sales, because, really, at the end of the day, we're all here to sell stuff, right? So I would come in and I would realize, Oh my God, you did all this first you didn't figure out your positioning strategy. Like what? Who are you in the market? And why do you matter? Those two questions are the two most important questions anybody can ask themselves. Is a market or a CEO? Who are you and why do you matter if you can't answer those questions? Doing a branding exercise is a waste of money. >> Talk about >> the conflict involved when you work for the client or when you have to get to this moment. This Ahamo sometimes is not a parent, sometimes is pretty clear. Sometimes you might think you're one, but you're really another. There's always maybe opinions about what, what people are in terms of a company internally amongst executives or the stakeholders. >> Yeah, how do you How do you figure it out? Is heroic >> golden rule or what's your What's your Tell them how to get to that moment of that self reflection >> is sure that sort of that's actually >> the key point of the book. It's it's based positioning. Really good positioning should be based on what your DNA as a company is, and the book tells you how to determine what is your DNA. But the the end of the day. They're three kinds of companies. There are product focus cos I happen to call them mechanics. There are customer focus, cos I call them mothers, and they're our concept, Focus Cos I call them missionaries. And interestingly, each of these types of companies do things entirely differently. They talk about different things and meetings. They hire different kinds of people. They train them differently. They measure success differently. They market themselves differently. There's actually, the DNA is reflected in there actions. So when I'm sitting around a workshop with a client, we have to determine Are they a mother? Are they a missionary or are there mechanic before we can actually figure out how to create marketing around them? So that's the biggest thing is there's some people over here. So we're a product company. These peoples, they know we're trying to change the world. And these people say, No, no, no, we're all about the customer and the discussion that you have around that is actually the where the ah ha moment comes When you decide okay, we really are a customer focus company doesn't mean the other two things go away. They just take a back seat to the marketing. So everybody has to agree that that's what they're going to move forward with. And that's what makes it. It's so much fun. It's like it's like doing and Myers Briggs test for a company. You know, everybody loves that, right? Oh, I'm in I n t j M e. And whatever the >> letters it was, I'm not that I'm really something else, >> but there's always confident. But >> you >> also mentioned the book that people can change, too. So you start out as something. Maybe a missionary evolve based upon the business changed. Talk about that, >> Yeah. So let's talk about Apple >> for a second cause that's the company that definitely was a missionary, and missionaries exist to change behavior on a fundamental level. And that was what Steve Jobs was all about, right? So when >> he was >> running the company even before he was running it, but he was a big influence, or there he basically was a missionary company. He was trying to change behavior, and that's what the Macintosh was all about. But after he passed away, he left the assets of the company in the hands of Tim Cook, who, by the way, is an amazing, amazing caretaker of those assets. I mean, he's grown them. He's turned them into it, turned the company into one of the world's most valuable companies. But unfortunately, he's not a missionary, and what he has done is he has kind of tried to keep the missionary thing going. But he hasn't been successful doing that. So what's happened is the market is turning Apple into a product focus company, and the leadership is not steering the company that direction they are trailing, so it's happening to ample, in other words. So you're going to start to see Apple focus more on Warren product over the years, which they which they have been. But they're starting to have some product issues, and I think that's the result of them, not it's tearing the company directly into this, >> finding that DNA and get filling the young count or hiring people toe >> exactly. Exactly. >> Just on that same point. Amazon is a company that is doing this to the market. So Amazon started as a product company, and now they've steered their steering themselves purposefully into a customer focus company. And if you go online and check out their new mission statement, it's to be Earth's most customer centric company. And this is the reason Jeff Bezos bought Zappos a number of years ago Wasn't because Jeff couldn't figure out how to sell shoes online. Of course he could. It was because he was buying that customer centric culture, So he's purposefully steering the company into the customer direction so >> you can change your DNA, >> but it ain't easy. >> I've any Jesse. Many times become a good friend on the Cube as well. He's the word customer so many times we can see the frequency, but they've been talking customer for a long time. So you say they were product company >> with his Amazon. Amazon lands >> on Web services. The missionary and a product focus because I think product would be. I think it's safe once >> I think early, early, early >> on meaning they started this customer transition probably five, six years ago, so but they were very much early on a product company, I think in bases his head. They were actually a missionary. But he never he never would go out and say that. What did he say about Amazon? Were online bookseller and oh, by the way, books are going so well now we're going to do music, and now we're going to, you know. And then >> it's product. >> It took about its product. It was product product product until he decided that he was going to eat the universe one bite at a time. And so, in order to be successful with that, he has to have a customer he feels he has to have customer relationships that are going to stick with him over the course of a lifetime. >> So you know a little about the Cube. What's the Cube? What are we? >> I think you're a missionary. I mean, you're trying to change >> behavior on a fundamental level, and, you know it's, um it's amazing what you've done. You know, we had this great conversation beforehand, and I learned about all the new things you're working on, and it's groundbreaking, groundbreaking stuff. >> Okay, Final question on the book is the funniest. Our craziest reaction you've had to it, either someone emailing You owe our ceremonial because it's pretty inspiring. You break it down free simply. But it's really a core fundamental practice. And I've read a lot of marketing books in my day. A lot of you know, these office come out. Process improvement. This is cuts to the chase. It's >> really thank you. Thank you. What's the big waves >> you heard or crazy? >> Well, I this is This is the >> most recent thing I can think of. I I ended up becoming number number one on Amazon's e book thing and four categories, just like two weeks ago, and I got Mohr social media coverage on that than >> anything else in my entire life with the most amazing >> thing that I've ever seen in all these. Congratulations. And, you >> know, they're they're categories. >> Not like this. Not like your New York Times best seller. It's like you're the best multi marketing, you know, book here, The best small business marketing book, those kinds of things. And it just was just blew up. It went viral. >> That's how it was all online. What made you write the book was That was the moment. When was the ah ha moment for you saying, You know what? I got to put the book together. Was it something that you had in mind? That you get this data collecting of institutional knowledge of the trade? When was the ah, ha moment for you to write the book? >> Well, I this framework that I developed here has been working for me really successfully for, like, seventeen years. And I just decided that wow, other people should know how to do this. You know, because when we charge when we hired when that when we hire when someone hires us, it's like one hundred fifty thousand dollars worth of worth of work to do what we do, they could do it for twenty two ninety nine or whatever the heck >> this thing costs these days. And you could occasionally you get a book out there to get an audio book as well. So s so I really wanted >> to spread the word about this framework in this methodology, cause I really believe that my, my inside my core of myself, that the epicentre of great marketing is positioning. And if you don't get that right, you will never succeed with any of the rest of it. So do >> the great folks. You have a great track record. I've seen personal your sex success of up close perambulations on that. Let's talk about cos now I want to get backto successful companies. He's a lot of conversation. I'd build a rocket ship. So you we live in Silicon Valley. There are rocket >> ships that there are, >> you know, go big or go home. Blitz Scaling his Reid, Hoffman would say, I endorse that one hundred percent think there's use cases clearly for blitz scaling. Other people have been throwing him under the bus saying that culture is not what we want and build a still stable business. And so the debate aside, there's two types of companies there's the Okay, I'm going to build this company. I might not know when they're when the growth's gonna be there. And then there's the big venture back category changer rocket ships. Can you talk about the success criteria in your mind of both companies around positioning approaches, things that you've seen in the past that work well, >> I think companies that understand who they are and why they matter are the ones that succeed. And it's also important that they have a good leader, a good, strong leader. But if you don't know who you are and why you matter, you can't build a new category. You can't even launch a new product. So I, >> you know, take a look at some of the companies that have done that. Well, Netflix has done that extremely well, right? Airbnb has done that extreme slack has done that really well. Microsoft is doing it really well again, right? They went through a downtime, and now you know their new CEO, Satya Nadella, is doing an unbelievable job with positioning. There's so much a product company, and he's not trying to make them into a customer. Companies trying to double down on the product so and Netflix is a is a missionary company there change behaviour on a fundamental >> of Microsoft's a great example because I think that's something into anything radical. In the product side, they looked at the tailwind of Cloud computing an A I and said, Let's throw the sails up there and let's let's get around behind it >> and grand source. >> And then they branded it. So they positioned themselves as a Claude company, and then they branded it. As as you're so >>On the tail winds concept of trends, Pat Gelsinger said that if you're not out in front of that next wave, you could be driftwood. Riding the waves are certainly a big part of jumping on a successful or tail wind some call it how important that have that positioning time to something that's trendy or something. >> Oh, that's a great question, because it's because the context in which you are actually putting something into the market is critical. So you have to really understand what are the waves that you want to ride and can ride. And don't try to be riding a wave that passed five years ago. Or that hasn't shown up yet. You might think there's a wave coming. That's the biggest danger of a lot of these high tech start ups is that they see a vision of something way down the line, and there's no way for them to ride today. And they launched their technology. But too early >> and to your point. If they don't have the positioning right, they won't be able to ride it. You >> know what they want. They won't be able to ride it. So if they if if they did a proper positioning exercise before that, they would realize that they're context in which they're doing this is not right for what they're saying. So have to pivot a little bit. These is where pivots come from, right? We have to pivot a little bit to make yourself relevant for the market today, and that's an important thing. >> Andy. Final question for the folks watching saying, I love the book. I'm gonna get it might have helped might need help and saying I need to call Andy and the team or figure it out. What are some of the tell signs that they're not getting it right or what? If some things when they need to call for help and howto people moved to the next level, some people might say, Hey, you know, we need help. We can't get concensus. The leader might not be strong enough to be a leadership transition. Could be a new wave that people have identified. Yeah. What? This is a tough challenge of self awareness. What is that? Some of the tell signs And how does >> > somebody actually make the change? It is a tough, and most CEOs are not into it enough of themselves to know to know those things. So what happens is they launch it and then they don't get traction. So the biggest reason why people call me is they're not getting traction. Now, the really the really smart ones do more analysis, like what you're talking about. Oh, there's something has changed in the context. So I better shift this or, you know, a competitors come up with something that sounds awful on awful lot like ours. Maybe we better get ahead of that. But that takes a really strategic CEO. And there are some of those out there, But not everyone is >> okay. So great book here. Getting toe, huh? Everyone great. It's a good thing I read. It. Came out the day. Volante. He's reading it. Thanks for coming out. Spend the time, John communications. Final word on the communications world. What's the message to folks out there? See, M O's out there and head of communications. What's the future look like for them? What should they do? Going forward to be successful? >> Well, the future of marketing is is really figuring out how to make word of mouth, you know, explode word of mouth, because that's why people buy things. You know, you told me I should check out this product or my book. He said, You told your friends I should check out the books, So he does. So it's all about word of mouth and starts with building a big digital footprint yourself and then going to the peak to the press side. >> Andy cutting him here in Palo Alto Studios. I'm John for with Keep conversations. Thanks for watching

[Music] everyone welcome to the special cube conversation here to talk about the big announcements big news big concepts and big trends happening Cisco live in Barcelona I'm John for your host of the cube we're here with Fabio Gauri senior director cloud solution marketing at Cisco I've been great to see you things are spending time to me to unpack all the exciting news in Barcelona great stuff thank you thank you for having me John so one of the things that's happening with Cisco we've covered certainly we've been reporting and reporting are other outlets as well and you guys have been transforming and continuing to innovate Cisco has transformed itself into the next level building on your successes we've been covering that and that's been all about the clouds been all about networking going you know software driven you know software powered network operations DevOps the whole thing is now infiltrating into into the new model but it's clear now there's no debate that on-premise data centers on-premise environments of IT service providers the entire old you know computing industry is connecting with the cloud that's been kind of validated and we've been staring at that for a couple of years and now everyone's starting to take action this is a key theme here in Barcelona for you guys and we heard you see you talking about it last year at Cisco live in North America that transition to cloud validated across the voice or Andy chassis the CEO of AWS actually announced an on-premise device hybrid cloud has been validated so public cloud and on-premise and now visibility into what kubernetes is enabled with multi cloud mm-hmm this is the new normal describe that impact in the marketplace what does it mean for customers what do they do what what is it what does this mean when now enterprises are seeing on-premise and cloud coming together absolutely well you know if you think about it you gotta start from the application so if you take a step back right we've been talking about digitization for so long but what does that ultimately mean right people need to build more and more applications to digitize their their business processes their customer experience and so on and so forth ultimately what we're seeing is that this applications are becoming exceptionally distributed right because they go what it makes sense whatever the data is whatever the user is you may have low latency needs you may have actually just you know the right needs to go all the way to the cloud in reality you have a mix of this kind of needs but workloads are distributed and people want to harness this multi cloud world and that's what we're seeing I love these chips it's kind of like people have been living on two sides of the street you know old way new way it's clear that the migration to this new model cloud is the new way and that's been validated again so you've got the old way in new way describe in your mind the old way and the new way from Cisco because if you look at the history of Cisco the dominance and the success I had and recently had an opportunity to be John Chambers at his house and he talked about that that dynamic of how Cisco is so dominant the culture and then going the next level the datacenter you guys have a great success networking edge this is New York or business yeah that's still relevant with the cloud in the new way so talk about what's changed all the way new way Francisco I'll give you a try so fundamentally if you if you if you remember where we're coming from we are coming from an era where we've been seeing infrastructure kind of dictating application requirements through the other way around as well but you had an application you will buy specific hardware networking and everything else including firewalls for a specific infrastructure right so that era actually is not going away is there because it's built an immense amount of legacy that you can not all of a sudden throw away however the new world is a world where you see applications fundamentally going pretty much across multiple type of domains not just to do the center domain anymore but here comes the cloud we have a lot of applications that are going to the edge if you have a branch office right you may want to take your application over there because it's simpler it's it's sometimes it's more economic you don't need to move all the data and still you can have those applications collaborating with your data center with your cloud so what you're now seeing is a completely from world where applications want the infrastructure to be programmable and easy accessible and still extremely secure that's interesting in the old way was you know the you dictate applications you can only do as much as the network and the infrastructure will let you to do yeah and then now as infrastructure becomes more abundant yeah data tsunamis have spent a lot of data's coming in so that's why the storage industry never docking it's always growing storage industries always growing servers as always need for compute but as is more abundance than that it almost as a limitless opportunity for applications so it's not a you know kill the old and bring in the new it's more of a foundational hold as now foundational it is literally next level thing so kubernetes service meshes these programmable policy-based abstractions are showing the way and that's a network construct policy is a network concert so the first time we're seeing is the coming together of the app market with infrastructure absolutely and if you think about it even a step before the apps people have when they build application they have a business intent right let's make an example you take healthcare application right you want in a hospital you want the doctors to be able to access you know the full extent of the data of a customer record for instance you may not want the nurses doing the same thing or for instance you don't want the nurses and the doctors to get access to the financial system of the hospital so this is actually a business intent that that given application will have to respect well the infrastructure can and has to cope with this kind of requirements by delivering the appropriate kind of segmentation right so that you'll be able to ensure that what the application wants to do the infrastructure delivers what has changed in the on premise and cloud world in your mind because to have that kind of coordination and you guys are have announced here it's some great announcements around seamless end-to-end as a theme we're seeing you're seeing hyper convergence anywhere are you seeing application centric infrastructure concepts everywhere but when you actually go into the hood and look at how complex it is it's almost magical in the sense that it's going on its I know it's hard work and people who know networking know it's hard what are the innovations what's enabling that what is the key driver that's making you guys connect an on-premise data complex data center environment that is now edges private networks hybrid private cloud IOT edge enterprise edge campuses the old stuff now with cloud what are the key linchpins well hey I'm gonna take on one of the the words that you use complexity people are looking for the opposite of complexity people are looking for simplicity easy to say more difficult to do but what sits between complexity and and and turning it into a more simple kind of architecture is automation so what you have to have is fundamentally an infrastructure that becomes automated programmable that takes the business intent or the application intent as an input and actually with a closed-loop system fundamentally monitors and gives you the assurance okay the implementation the assurance that actually what you want to do gets delivered by the infrastructure and this has to be literally annalistic and cross-domain kind of architecture what do I mean with cross-domain you're going out of the data center you're going out to the edge you're now going to the cloud this should be seen as a cohesive almost fluid environment where you can actually push your policy your security models right and transform in this highly fragmented the architecture into a set of domains or a multi domain architecture that you can control that you can automate as if it was all yours so to speak even though in the cloud for instance you're going into a domain that you don't control end-to-end so big concept here being discussed in Barcelona is multi domain you just get that explain that a little bit and then take that to where cloud integration comes in because the other thread that we're seeing here is multi cloud yeah so multi domain multi-cloud the same are they different what's the nuance points there yeah again the the critical point is let's think applications applications want to go and it's convenient to go into multiple domains right depending on what you want to do what you want to access to you wanna access clouds innovation from whatever they come from so that's why we have a multi cloud world the data center is still there is critically important you have a lot of applications databases that are still there and now we're seeing the big new shiny object which which is more and more super Robo remote office branch office applications where for instance IDC believes 30% of applications are going to be deployed into this kind of environments so your problem is now connecting all of this together right and because the applications are going anywhere are the designer strategy is that the data center needs to follow the applications and support them wherever they go so it's a data center anywhere kind of kind of strategy the data center has to flex and provide that yes be ready for anything basically from from applications what you're getting at and all the all the plumbing and all the all the intelligence underneath it have to be reactive to what the application wants absolutely a vocation doesn't have to get into the provisioning or any kind of policy because that's the infrastructure as code DevOps the point is that that kind of absolutely the application has an intent right there's also application policy etcetera but it needs to be translated into infrastructure policy where we've been talking about it a minute ago when we were doing the the healthcare kind of example right well we've been super excited in collaborating with you guys on kubernetes we have a special section on silicon angle called the kubernetes special report that's evolving into multi cloud special reports the folks watching Silicon angle comm check out the multi classify syrup or that should be up and yeah by now it was the COO Bernays but ton of interest was seeing startups coming out of the kubernetes you're seeing a cloud native world CN CF and Linux foundation promoting tons of great ecosystem development pulling together those developers want more infrastructure and so that and they wouldn't want to deal with it right so this is where you the cloud strategy has been paying off for you guys you guys have had done deals with Google as your AWS s ap Red Hat among others you guys are well poised for this talk about cloud Center that's a big piece of the story here yeah cloud Center suite a new capabilities talk about the impact of cloud and cloud Center yeah so let me let me let me take us the buck if you want and tell you a little bit more about what we're announcing here right because it's a pretty big announcement I mentioned at the center anywhere what does it mean right well of course our data center portfolio is sent around two big components the first one is networking right particular application center came first structure a CI based on the Nexus 9 K kind of architecture and the second one is our computing portfolio particularly you know the hyper-converged infrastructure cisco hyper flex that's of course you know an extremely efficient way of condensing you know what you need to make it very flexible in your application implementation where we have two major news here right in this two areas and the third is absolutely what you were asking for which is Cloud Center so with a CI and it's interesting because they're going into two if you want different directions when it comes to the small T cloud domain AC I was already visualized in the previous releases sorry application centric infrastructure is fundamentally cisco in ten base networking for the data center okay it gives you program ability of the infrastructure it gives you segmentation gives you security and a high degree of automation capabilities exactly okay continue and so in the previous in the previous if you want developments releases of ACI what we've been doing was to aggressively visualize a CI right so that you will have constructs like virtual poles and virtual leaves to rescale your data center implementation to the edge now where we're going with this new announcement is exactly on the other side which is we're standing ACI to the cloud to usher in AWS so that the construct that you have typically on Prem under your control such as tenants EP G's and things of this nature will be translated into the equivalent construct in AWS whether it's VP C's or security groups and the likes the two things end up fundamentally corresponding so now we have one construct that extends from the edge to the data center to the cloud that's a pretty big deal and what does that mean to the customer just give an example it means a high degree of automation security and control on the resources right so that you can impose one policy it propagates all across the board one way of monitoring you know the data center flows and discovering for instance if you have if you have any kind of security threat monitoring application performance thanks to the inter so this fully checks this hybrid cloud box this ship I say yes is one a hybrid deployment this checks the box saying I can operate and say whatever cloud and on-premise in the datacenter with a CI both places without changing any code is it seamless what's the what's that well with a CI is gonna come with a specific software this is all software that's that's the beauty of it right it's it's in line with the transformation the company that you were referring to it's all software and it goes into AWS and uses of course all the api's to connect 2d to the AWS resources that you were you're you're acquiring from AWS right so that's one big bucket of news the second bucket o news is hyper flex that's actually heading to the edge because what we're seeing is more and more applications that have components of the application itself or even entire applications that are going into remote office branch offices and the reason are many right it could be cost reason it could be did a gravity reason it could be just low latency reason right we all know that you know to go back and forth from the cloud that's not always convenient as well as if you lose the connectivity your branch is dead right so you have to you need to have business continue it in all of this and so it doesn't mean that you don't want the cloud you want a collaboration across this again fluid sort of infrastructure so I purflex come with a very efficient kind of kind of fun factor over there now it's either flex edge and its control Emilia this is that because you have many remote offices and branch offices is controlled from the cloud with cisco inter side which is of course our console and cloud system to manage all these hand points no just hyper flex but also UCS so when you think of this now you understand what do we mean with the dissenter anywhere because we're taking both our networking and our computing platforms anywhere the application needs them right and the third component which actually is where your questions started from is application lifecycle management in this kind of infrastructure becomes even more of a problem right it is extremely complicated now to have applications in multiple clouds and then in your data center and to the in India JH and in you know all these different kind of places so what we've done with cloud center which is our flagship club management and an orchestration system is two big things first we have expanded the functionalities by adding new modules especially the cause optimizer the helps operations team at Center suite now it's the cloud center suite and I'll explain you in a moment why we remove the branding slightly from cloud center to cloud center suite because we highly modularize the software and and make it and made it really much more easy to consume I'll go there in a moment but going back to what is new first of all is cost optimizer right that's that's brand new and it helps Operations team to right-size the workload to pick up the the best instances in the cloud are you using to actually minimize your investment or reach your your goal of performance and cost right that's one big thing the second one is that we're adding a very smart so called action Orchestrator which is a workflow manager that helps you automate in there tear connection of your cloud management system to all the other systems right some of these plugins and integrations come outer-box particularly with the higher level tiers of licensing such as with service now for instance or we give you already built-in integration with cisco inter side or UCS director which is the infrastructure manager for Cisco infrastructure but you can use the kind of platform and module to build your own integrations with the other systems that's very important because the cloud management system doesn't exist in isolation right it needs to integrate with all the other IT management solution that you have on Prem and that's one big thing the second big thing as you said before when you said about the suite is the fact that because we have written all of this new software and cuber Nerys right this is highly scalable highly portable so now we can give you different tiers of licenses you can start very small as small as around $50,000 right for subscription service and you can actually bite subscription on pram or that's big news you can buy Nate software-as-a-service so cloud center is now Asaf offering yes available when it's gonna be so all the subscription use the new software is going to be available literally a next month in a few days for now right in February and the SAS version is gonna be available in North America in March so right away for Europe of course due to the GDP our implementation our customers will have to wait until the summer but it's pretty immediate and you hear a bit of an extra work done yeah okay so bottom line me on the cloud Center suite what is the the purpose is it to be the high level management suite how is it connecting into other systems so if I have all these different management tools out there when Cisco and others is it connecting into am i connecting up and you just explain quickly you know the purpose of it yeah works so really the goal of Cloud Center is to do a salute three things the first one is a he wants to simplify cloud management and how it does it right one of the key patents that we acquire together we clicker right click a cloud center when we brought them in more than two years ago was the really unique way that they have to model applications right the way that people are managing cloud management and an organization is still extremely manual I mean many customers are still kind of doing scripting we have cases of customers that are scripting like 1200 lines of codes just to upload a piece of software onto the cloud we think the approach should be different right the approach should be you should be able to model that application your application model wants and then thanks to cloud API so we have 16 different API into a cloud integrations with AWS our Google you name it right I BM and the likes we realize of course on parameter private cloud once you model your application you can use any of these other clouds as a target for implementation okay that allows you to have a very very effective cloud management solution because don't risk to make mistakes you leave the tool so you said it's written in kubernetes absolutely we scraped all this now we program all this in Cuban Eddie's so you may tell us hey you're walking the talk absolutely doing that and that's very in that sow actually we can do it on Prem in a Cuban IT infrastructure by the way if you need one we have the Cisco cloud center platform a hyper flex underneath to do it or you can buy from the cloud because we're uploading a little dot to the cloud you guys have done a good job at kubernetes just as a side note you guys done the work it's doing the cloud integrations and I think wasn't she about kubernetes unlike other trends I've seen in some of these open-source projects some hype comes up and then it kind of drops off or it gets hyped up and it's too hard to roll out or use it cost too much and so people actually using kubernetes for not just standing it up they're actually pulling it for a purpose so congratulations on that I think it's a real good thank you for thank you know we're a big believer in to this so simplifying really multiplayer management is one big thing reducing time to value is another big thing because with the integrations and the ability you know to integrate with the other tools you can put it in production very very quickly and then it's incredibly easy to consume you can start small and grow up so I did a little checklist here I want to just run this by you and then I'm going to ask you a question around what all this means to your to your customer base because I'm sure the world's changing we've done a lot of kind of you know surveys and interaction with a lot of network guys to kind of spiel out how the markets going get your reaction so interesting thing you guys have a this builder model very similar to Amazon you know toolkits for cloud builders you guys are really investing heavily and it's a security you got stealthWatch tetration analytics you've got app dynamics and tetration as well datacenter hyper flex UCS Nexus check cloud apps WebEx I know what else is in there there's also cloud apps cloud native apps which you're connecting into management cloud center container platform and IOT kinetic and networking the edge Meraki cloud service route or bunch of other things so you guys are building quite the portfolio on here right so given that you guys have that security to network and kind of end-to-end with the application centric infrastructure are kind of expanding and intent based networking combined cloud seems to be kind of the end-to-end is the theme it really is it's it's again end to end and across multiple domains because that's the thing that doesn't come across with end to end is the fact that you need to cross different domains that are exceptionally different from from each other and so having consistent policies and a single security model having one mean of networking and securing all this in a containerized world which which is where we're progressively going that's everything and you know it's not me saying it but if you look at the CN CF surveys they'll tell you the securing and working containers is one of the toughest things so I got to ask you that the tough question totally makes sense you got my buy-in on it I totally believed in the vision making it work okay making it smart and making it at scale are the three kind of things I'm looking at give us your take on how you guys are looking at those three kind of you know checkpoints you got to get this up and running so one make it work you know end-to-end mobile domains yeah make it intelligent that's data smarter you know automation kicks in and I'll see scaling it up but you know with all the checkbox security everything else so take us through the strategy yeah and what you guys are thinking there and and the impact with that in mind so the person on the other side your customer the buyer and customer Sisko to manage it that's that's a big sea change yeah and the benefits are pretty lucrative on the other side if you can pull this up yeah yeah upon three big aspects so first of all we mean we've been talking about architectures but architectures doesn't mean that you shouldn't have Best of Breed products right it starts from there those are the atomic components of any strategy right you gotta have best of the products now these products need to integrate into an architecture that solves true business problems such as the intent base you know architecture that we've been talking about the third aspect is actually how you help customers to be successful and I will love to call out our partner strategy right which for I would say for as long as 30 years has been Cisco's critical differentiator and I think this is an enormous asset especially when you look at the number one problem in IT out there which is not kubernetes and it's no cloud is actually lack of talent people don't have the skillset and talents so relying on an ecosystem that helps you expanding what you need because you don't have it inside its fundamental importance on you guys absolutely but this is a critical asset and you know we're doing a lot of investments also on the customer experience side of the house with our leader Maria Martinez the staking actually this customer experience so approach to the next level more and more it's about these architectures also being cloud a touch so you heard me talking about inter-site it doesn't come by chance right the more you can rely on on this kind of architectures the more you can harvest analytics you can do cross correlation across multiple networks and domains and figure out what is going wrong that's something that providers of pinpoint products just cannot even dream of delivering as final question for first of all thanks for spending the time and chatting and he was going to be rolling out a lot of content we're gonna be following what's going on with on your end to really like Cisco's vibe you guys are very transparent and collaborating appreciate being there working with you guys final question if someone's watching this I'm a Cisco customer you know we've been talking about the network I which I've talked to a couple you know and surveying some some enterprises where you know the network's they've done the heavy lifting that's been part of the computing industry you know networking compute they've been running the show and really have moved the needle campus networking the list goes on and on but now that foundation set we're going to a whole nother level it's almost like a sea change on the personality side persona of the people who've built it out and now have to build the next generation yeah and my relevant am I gonna be the mainframe guy am I gonna be leading the charge or may be left behind there's a lot of cognitive dissidence around decisions so that go here should I go there architectures so there's a lot of psychology and also decision-making that's gonna be determined by your core audience mm-hmm that person out there is your target audience they're thinking about these things because they want to do well and they don't wanna be left behind what do you say to that audience about Cisco now the opportunity for them personally their ability to one grow their skill gaps or have an impact to being a key change agent for this next generation what do you say that that person out there about the Cisco and the opportunity for them it's it's a very big question I would split a question in two parts first of all is what is your advice to IT professionals right how can they not just survive but thrive and be the heroes of this this transition and it's pretty simple actually you have to understand what your business wants we've been talking about how do you close this gap between of infrastructure and application but in other terms is covering the gap between what you do and what the business wants you've got to understand that right so that's number one second part of the question is okay considering this is cisco the right partner for me and the answer of course from cisco standpoint is approximately yes because our entire company strategy is wrapped around this concept of intent-based architecture where our goal is to map the business intent into the infrastructure underneath and that's exactly your core business mr. IT professional right so I see this as a as a marriage in heaven right in terms of where I see really the talent need for IT going right in IT professionals and where the company is going right if we if we're right and I think we are this is gonna be a great ride and not a threatening one I think everything's lining up you're getting clear visibility into what the role of cloud is the scale PC and personal links are just undeniable and that the role of technologists now are super important there's no jobs really going away they're shifting this is this is the reality this is kind of what the exciting opportunity it is but but again it's about bringing IT very close to the business in the end I believe it's just it's just gonna be continuity between what we call today line of business and IT it's just a company that wants to win in the marketplace right wants to get faster efficient usual kind of you know terminology but you know does this gap is gonna go away Fabio thank you for taking the time to share this conversation I'm John furry this is a cube conversation here at Barcelona live go live Europe back to the cube coverage go to the cube dotnet to check out all the live coverage and cube interviews in Barcelona I'm here with Fabio Korey senior director cloud solutions marking Cisco I'm John for the cube thanks for watching [Music] you

(energetic music) >> Narrator: Live from San Juan, Puerto Rico, it's theCUBE, covering CoinAgenda. Brought to you by SiliconANGLE. >> Hello and welcome to our exclusive Puerto Rico coverage of CoinAgenda, I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. We're here covering all the action at Restart, we've got a ton of events, all the thoughts leaders, influencers, decision makers, you name it, in the industry, pioneers making it happen. My next guest is Toni Lane, who's the founder of CoinGraph. She's a true influencer with a lot of impact in this market. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you for having me. >> We're so glad to have you on. Like the little joke at the beginning about being an influencer, you actually are an influencer. You've done such great work in the industry, well regarded in the community. You have publication and you do a lot of great content. Thanks for coming on. >> Oh, for sure, yeah, thanks for having me. >> So being the influencer, what does that mean these days? Because we were just talking before the camera on, we came on camera, influence changes. You can't be an influencer all the time. You can be super or expert at something, but your expertise could change, you move to a new topic, learn something. And there's a lot of people in the digital marketing world saying I'm an influencer. It's kind of half baked, and really, I mean, it's not about the followers, your thoughts? >> Well, I mean, most of those followers are purchased. So there's a big difference between being an influencer and having actual influence. Because if you're, you know, if you have a million followers on Twitter, that's nice. How much engagement do you have? And that's actually what you look for, it's like when you look at someone's, whether it's, you know, social media, their digital presence, it's not about followers, it's all about engagement. You know, I don't even have that many, like I don't spend a lot of time doing that, at least I haven't so far, it's something I'm getting more into. But I have people that are really engaged, and so I look at people that have 15 million followers and I'm like, you have just as many likes on your things as I do, right. Because these people aren't real people. And it's less about, having influence in general is in many ways about having authenticity. And so influence is your ability to get something done. Being an influencer is your ability to hold someone's attention for a fragment of time. But being an influencer is not the same as having influence. >> And this community here, certainly, with decentralization here, you get the decentralized applications coming up blockchain, you got ICOs booming. It's all about the network effect, if you look at network effect, that is a new concept that ad technology does not know because you can't cookie a network connection. The only way to measure someone's true network is through malware today, and that's not good, no one does that. Well, they do, they're-- >> Toni: Unfortunately, yeah. >> But you can't you do it at business price, not sustainable. So the point is, it's not about how many followers you have. It could be that one follower, maybe 200 or 2,000, that opens up more. This is the network effect. This is what this community is all about, so I want to get your thoughts on this community's vibe. A lot of mission-driven, impact-oriented, merged with tech. So you have a fusion of technology, artistry, craftsmanship and mission-driven societal change in one melting pot. This is your wheelhouse. Share your thoughts on this. >> Well, so all of the different digital currencies have different value systems and they attract a different breed. And there are different incentives for each of these based on how the technology is designed, each protocol, right? So if you look at Bitcoin, in Bitcoin, the incentives are, you know, mining is done by computers, so your only incentive is like having social influence? And this is, I think, why we've seen a lot of kind of I would call it a scarcity mentality in terms of the way, why we see even more trolls in Bitcoin is because social influence is a huge way that success is measured, because as a developer, you can't have, you can't achieve a level of status any other way as a developer or as an influencer in Bitcoin, because the Bitcoin network is so far removed from that. And that's actually a perverse incentive in and of itself, and not only that, but early days in Bitcoin, there were major organizations who would hire people to man 100 Reddit and Twitter accounts and go into the Bitcoin community and actually fragment the public opinion using a technique grassroots psychological insurgency. So buying Reddit accounts that had been active for the last 10 years and going through and, you know, essentially just stabbing at people and creating, even having conversations with themselves to empower the voice of trolls. And what happens is you start bringing out what we call, actually, what the former Assad called, after Henry Kissinger, there was a big move that happened in the Middle East, where Kissinger realized the Middle East was becoming too powerful, and he saw it as a threat to American democracy. And so Kissinger organized a deal that fragmented the Middle East. And Assad said to Kissinger that his actions would be, he played Assad, basically. And Assad said to Kissinger, "Your actions "will bring up demons hidden underneath "the surface of the Arab world." And that strategy is actually something used in the Bitcoin community to leverage the incentives that are created, which is why we have seen previously so much, even from our industry leaders, so much fragmentation and so much tension. But the network is the most secure and the least corruptible, hands down, fundamentally. It's real cryptography. >> But let's talk about that, I love this conversation, because with networks, you have the concept of self-heal, and this gets nerdy on the packets, how packets move, at that level, self-healing networks has been a paradigm that's been proven. So that's out there, that's got to go to a societal level. The other one is the incentive system, if you have an immune system, if you will, in a network, this is a cultural thing. So actions, the Reddit's obvious, right. Weaponizing content has been well-documented, it's coming now mainstream, people are getting it that this outcome was actually manufactured by bad behavior. Now, I argue that there's an exact opposite effect. You can actually weaponize for good, 'cause everything has a polar opposite. So what is your view on that, because this is something that we've been teasing out for the first time. How do you weaponize content for good, (mumbles) not the right word, but look for the opposite value? >> Right, yeah, I mean, it is in so many ways, right. So I think it's about, there's a professor at Stanford whose name is BJ Fogg, and he's a behavioral researcher and he talks about essentially, you know, he writes a lot about habits. But something that's even more interesting about his understanding of propaganda is I studied a lot of Edward Bernays, he's responsible, he created the theory of propaganda, right. And he's the nephew of Sigmund Freud, he's responsible for essentially every consumptive theory in like leading up to the last century, he's actually, I would say he's responsible for the state of advertising and the economy today, almost really single handedly. And what's fascinating about this theory is that you can use propaganda to get women to smoke by unearthing what it is unconsciously in men that makes them not want to smoke. You can also use propaganda to get people to invest in health and wellness. You can also use propaganda to get people to stop their bad habits. So it's understanding that a technique works in a cognitive capacity in a way that affects a large amount of people. And it's really about the intention behind why a person who has influence, as we were saying, is leveraging that relationship. So I would say it's more about-- >> So we have to reimagine influence. Because the signalings that are igniting the cognitive brain can be tweaked. So that's what you're getting at here, right, so that's what we have to do. >> And it's an illusion from almost every angle. It's even the idea that, in the United States, the level of influence the president has and who's running, you know, and who, yeah, and who's at the wheel, right. So it's, we live in a world that is built on manufactured consent, and manufactured consent is enabled through thinkers like Bernays and through what I call the illusion of things like our former construct of even American democracy. That these things we've imagined to be so, the foundation and the structure for the way that we live. All of those things have become so far removed from their theory that they're no longer serving the principles under which they were founded, and that disconnect is actually a huge, it's a gap, it's an inertia gap for exploitation or it's an inertia gap for growth, and usually what happens is you have the exploitation first. Someone says oh, here's a big gap of information asymmetry, so I'm going to exploit the information asymmetry. And then once people start realizing that that information asymmetry is being exploited, you experience a huge inversion of that and you have enough kind of, you have enough inertia behind that slingshot to launch it into something totally different. >> Yeah, this is a great concept, I interviewed the founder of the Halcyon HAL in Washington, DC, and she's an amazing woman. And she had a great conscious about this, and what she postulated was, bubbles that burst, exploitation's always, we've seen it in all trends. The underbelly, 'cause it's motivated, no dogma. They don't care about structural incentives, they just want to make cash. But she had an interesting theory, she was talking about you can let the air out of the bubble with community and data. So all the societal entrepreneurship activities now that are mission-driven, now getting back to mission-driven is interesting. There might be a way to actually avoid the pop. Because, depending upon what the backlash might be on the exploitation side, as we saw in the dotcom bubble, you can actually let the air out a little bit through things like data. I mean, how do you see, in your mind, just thinking out loud, how do you see that playing out, because we have community now. We have access to open data. Blockchain is all about immutability. It's all about power to the user's data. This is a mega trend. Your thoughts? >> So interdependence is huge in the blockchain community, and that's actually to touch back on the incentives in Bitcoin, I think that that's actually one of Bitcoin's, it's not that it's a wrong or a right, it just is, right, like sidechains will be launched eventually, but the idea that Ethereum created something that was adaptable and empowered people to be creative, and yet they're creating incentives for her people to launch products that are, I believe, 'causing, in some ways, could cause some serious harm to the ecosystem once the air is let out of that bubble. >> John: The data. >> The data, so data, yes yes yes. >> How do you let the air out of the bubble, because the pop will be massively implosion, it'll leave a crater. >> So data is a non-scarce resource. This is actually how I describe blockchain to people. And this is actually, I think, one of the, the challenge, if you want to look at it from the perspective of challenge, and then I'll talk about for the benefit, just between Bitcoin and Ethereum, there are obviously other blockchains, EOS is like coming out super soon, Holochain. There are tons, Steem has actually its own infrastructure, tons of other blockchains to speak about. But just to take these two main blockchains, which are not competitors. In Bitcoin, you have, it's really cryptography. Cryptography is not about, you know, like let's do some rapid prototyping, cryptography is about let's like put a lot of thought into this thing and have mathematical certainty that this is not exploitatable. And Ethereum is just kind of like, well, let's build a framework and then let people play as much as they can. And so there are challenges and benefits to both of those models, the challenge of Ethereum being that you've let all of this capital into the industry which is not actually, 46% of ICOs have already failed. Already failed. And then if you look at Bitcoin-- >> And a person with your industry (mumbles) at 1,200, so it's a 50% discount. >> Oh yeah, oh yeah. And then if you do the same thing and you're looking at the Bitcoin blockchain, we've seen that the capacity for innovation, Bitcoin could have done what, they could've been the first to market for what Ethereum is doing. And they chose a different route, and I think there are some pros and cons to both of those things, but I think there is an intentionality behind why the world played out in the way that it did. And I think it's the right strategy for both products. So the way I describe applications using blockchain technology to people and what I call the future of an infinite economy is that, if you think about why are Facebook and Google these multi billion dollars companies, it's really simple. It's because what do they own, right? The data, the data. And they're some of the last companies that are still stewarding these things in a way that is taking vast amount of aggregated ownership over an asset that people are generating every day that's extremely valuable to companies in the private sector. So the way that I describe blockchain is that, if we being to own our self-sovereign identity, then when we're owning our data, that's the foundation for universal basic income. If we take a non-scarce resource like data that's being generated every day, not just from us, right, but the data in the health of the ocean, right. The stewardship of the ocean, the health of the fish, actually saying okay, fish are thriving in this area, and so there's a healthy ecosystem, and so this coin is trading higher because we're stewarding this area of the ocean so we don't overfish. The quality of the air so that, when we're actually de-polluting the air collectively, everyone around us is creating and generating data to say we're making the air better. The air, actually, the health of our bodies, of our Earth, of our minds, of our planet, of even the health of our innovation. Right, what are the incentives behind our innovation, those are all forms of data. And that's a non-scarce resource, so if we take all of these different applications and make many different blockchains. Which I fundamentally believe that there's a powerful theory in having blockchains that are economically scarce, because I believe you're going to empower more diverse spectrums and also have a level of difficulty in creating the coin. You're going to have more innovation. And so-- >> Well, this is a key area. I mean, this is super important. Well, I mean, you step back for a second, you zoom out, you say okay, we have data, data's super valuable, if you take it to the individual's levels, which has not been, quite frankly, the individual's been exploited. Facebooks of the world, these siloed platforms, have been using the data for advertising. That's just what everyone knows, but there's other examples. The point is, when you put the data in the hands of the users, combine that with cloud computing and the Internet of Things when you can have an edge of the network high powered computer, the use cases have never been pushed before. The envelope that we're pushing now has never been in this configuration. You could never have a decentralized network, immutable, storing users' data, you've never had the ability to write the kind of software you can today, you've never had cloud computing, you've never had compute at the edge, which is where the users live, they are the edge. You have the ability where the user's role can enable a new kind of collective intelligence. This is like mind blowing. So I mean, just how would you explain that to a common person? I mean, 'cause this is the challenge, 'cause collective intelligence has been well documented in data science. User generated content is kind of the beginning of what we see in user wearables. But if you can control the data streaming into the network, with all the self-healing and all the geek stuff we're talking about, it's going to change structural things. How do you explain that to a normal person? >> You don't, you don't, right. So you show them. Because I can sit here all day and I can talk to you about, you know, I could talk to you about all of these things, but at the end of the day, with normal people, it's not something you want to explain. You want to show them, because with my, actually, my grandma gets Bitcoin. My grandma hit me up in like 2012 and she was like, "Do you know what that Bitcoin thing is?" I'm like, "Mimi," I'm like, "How do you know "what Bitcoin is, Mimi?" And she's just like, "I don't know, I read." You know, I was like, "This is, so what are you reading? "Like, are you hanging out on like libertarian forums, "like what's up?" And so-- >> What's going on in the club there, I mean, are they playing-- >> Yeah, but she is a really unique lady. So I would say that, for most people, they are not going to, when you explain things to people-- >> What would you show them, I mean, what's an example? >> The way that, so when I was, so I got into Bitcoin in 2011, and the way that I would explain Bitcoin to people is I would just send it to them. I would be like, "Here's Bitcoin, like take this Bitcoin, "here's some Bitcoin for you." And that was, people got it, because they were like, I have five dollars now in my hands that was not there. And this person just sent it to me. And for some people even still, you know, to be honest, even then, I remember how much energy it took for me to do that. Everywhere I go, I'd be like, in cabs, I'd be checking out grocery stores and I would try, I would essentially pitch Bitcoin to every person that I met. >> John: You were evangelizing a lot of it. >> It took so much energy though, and even after that, there was a period-- >> It was hard for people to receive it, they would have to do what at that time? Think about what the process was back then. >> Oh yeah. There were very few people who, even after doing that, really got it. But you know what happened. This is so much perspective for me, I remember doing that in 2013 and I remember, in 2018, actually, I think it was the end of 2017. I went to a gas station, it's the only gas station in San Francisco with a Bitcoin ATM. And I was like, I need to get some cash and I'm running on Bitcoin. >> John: You guys want a mountain view now. >> Yeah, yeah. And so I go in and these guys, I'm like frustrated, I'm like oh, the ATM is like the worst user experience ever, I'm like (groans). That's literally, I'm like, it's just, it was like eyes rolling in the back of my head, like just so frustrated because I'm a super privacy freak. And so it was just a super complex process, but the guys that, the guy's (mumbles) he looks at me and he goes, "Yo." And I was like, "What's up, man?" And he goes, "Are you trying to buy some Bitcoin?" I was like, "I'm trying to sell some Bitcoin right now." (John laughs) >> You're dispensing it, they're like yeah. >> Yeah, he's like, "Oh, word." And he's like, "How much are you trying to sell?" And I'm like, "I don't know, like 2K." And so he goes, "Aight." And he's like, "Let me hit up my friends," he literally calls three of his friends who come down and they just like, they're like, "Do you want to sell more?" They're like, all they just peer to peer. It's like we bypass the ATM and it was actually a peer to peer exchange. And I didn't have to explain anything. You know what made people get it? You showed them the money, you showed them the money. And sometimes people don't, you can explain these concepts that are world-changing, super high level or whatever. People are not actually going to get it until it's useful to them. And that's why a user interface is so important. Like, if you even look at the Internet. Who made the money on the Internet, right, it was the people who understood how to own the user interface. >> I had a conversation with Fred Kruger from WorkCoin, he's been around the block for a long time, great guy. We were riffing on the old days. But we talked about the killer app for the mini computer and the mainframe, the mini computer and then the PC, it was email, for 20 years, the killer app was email. We were like, what's the killer app for blockchain? It's money, the killer app is money. And it's going to be 50 year killer app. Now, the marketplace is certainly maybe tier two killer app, but the killer app is money. >> For sure, that's amazing. >> That's the killer app. Okay, so we're talking about money, let's talk about wallets and whatnot. There's a lot of people that I know personally that had been, wallets had been hacked. Double authentication (mumbles) news articles on this, but even early on, you got to protect yourself. It's something that you're an advocate of, I know recently, you've been sharing some stuff on Telegram. Share your thoughts on newbies coming in, be careful. Your wallet can be hacked, and you got to take care of yourself online. Is there a best practice, can you share some color commentary on when you get into the system, when you get Bitcoin or crypto, what are some of the best practices? >> It's not even, I think you need to remember a key principle of cryptography when you're dealing with digital currency, which was like don't really trust anything unless you call someone, you have like first hand verification from a person that you trust. Because these things are, I mean, I've had, literally last week, I had seven friends contact me, actually more than that once I posted about it, and they were like, "Is this you?" And I was like what, like people would literally just go online, they would scrape my Facebook photo, they'd go on Telegram and they would make, my name is @ToniLaneC, T-O-N-I-L-A-N-E-C, and so is my Twitter, and people would scrape my photos from my Twitter or my Telegram or my Facebook and they would create fake accounts. And they would start messaging people and say "Hey, like "what's up, how are you, that's cool, great, awesome. "So like, I need like 20 BTC for a loan. "Can you help me?" And all my friends were like, "I was just talking to you, is this you?" And I'm like no. And so I think that there's, the other thing you have to, it's not just security in terms of, and this is actually a problem Blockchain has to solve, right. It's not just security in terms of protecting your wallet and, you know, getting like a Ledger or a Trezor and making sure that you're keeping things like in cold storage, that you're going, there are so many, keeping your money in a hard wallet, not keeping your private keys on your computer, like keeping everything, storing your passwords in multiple places that you know are safe. Both handwritten, like in lock boxes, putting it in your safe deposit box or, you know, there are so many different ways that we can get into like the complexities of protecting yourself and security. Not using centralized cell networks is one of the big ways that I do this. Because if you are using two factor-- >> John: What's a centralized cell network? >> AT&T, Verizon, T-Mobile. Because you are putting yourself in a situation where, if you're using a centralized system, those centralized systems are really easily exploitable. I know because my mom, when I was a kid one time, she put a password on my account so I couldn't buy games. I was not happy about it, it was my money that I was using, it was my money I was using to buy games, she was like, "You should just spend your money on better things." And so I remember going in when I was a kid, and I was like, this is my money, I totally want to buy this upgrade on this game. And so I went in and I essentially figured out how to hack into my own phone to be able to use my own money to buy the games that I wanted to buy-- >> Highly motivated learning opportunity there (laughs). >> But I realized that, in the same way we were talking about things that can be used for good can be used for bad, in the same way that someone can do something like that, you can also say, well, I'm in a call and say that I'm this person and take their phone and then get their two factor auth. So I don't use centralized cell networks, I don't use cell networks at all. >> John: What do you use? >> So, I mean, I have different kinds of like strategies or different things that mostly-- >> You might not want to say it here, okay, all right. >> Yeah yeah yeah, they're different, I'm happy to talk about those privately. The way that I've kind of handled that situation, and then the other thing that I would say is like, we really need hardcore reputation systems in our industry and for the world. And not social reputation systems like what is happening in China right now, where you can have someone leave you, like let's say I get into an Uber and I'm 30 seconds late. I can end up in a situation where I'm like not able to be admitted into a hospital or I'm not able to take a public train. Because someone rates me lower on this reputation system, I think that's a huge human rights issue. >> John: Yeah, that's a huge problem. >> And so not reputation systems like this, but reputations like the one we're working on at CULTU.RE that are really based more on the idea of restoration and humanization, rather than continued social exploitation to create some kind of collective norm, I think that kind of model is, it's not only a-- >> Well, the network should reject that by-- >> Toni: Exactly, exactly. >> All right, so let's talk about digital nations, we have China, so there's some bad behavior going on there. I mean, some will argue that there's really no R&D over there, and now they're trying to export the R&D that they stole into other countries, again, that's my personal rant. But the innovation there is clear, we chat and other things are happening. They finally turned the corner where they're driving a lot of, you know, mainly because of the mobile. But there's other nations out there that are kind of left behind. The UK just signed this week with Coinbase a pretty instrumental landmark licensing deal, which is a signal, 'cause I know Estonia, Armenia, you name every country wants to, Bahrain's got, you know, Dubai envy. So I mean, every country wants to be the crypto country. Every country wants to be the smart cities digital nation. I know this is something that you liked, and you and I were talking about 'cause we both are interested in. Your reaction, your thoughts on where that's going, I see, it's a good sign. What are the thresholds there, what are some of the keys things that they need to do to be a real digital nation? >> Well, I think it's less about digital nations in terms of like a nation is a series of borders, and more about first nations that we are, this is what we work on at CULTU.RE, that we are actually a nation of people and a lot of those nations have overlap and we should be able to participate in many different nations who have many different economies that are all really cooperating interdependently to create the best possible life for all human good, rather than just saying like I care about me and mine, because that strategy, the way government works now, it's a closed network with low trust that is extremely inefficient in management of resources. And the only way you can really-- >> That's the opposite, by the way, of what this movement's about. >> Yeah, exactly. And the only way you can have influence in government is to go in government and to work through government. All right. So it's the idea that, look at how much food we waste in the United States. If we took the food we wasted in the United States and repurposed it, we could literally cure world hunger. That is how bad it has gotten, right. And there are people starving in the US. There are people on food stamps in the US. >> Well, I mean, every institution, education, healthcare, you name it, it's all, you know, FUBAR, big time. >> Yeah, but we're throwing away tons of lettuce and all of this different kinds of produce because it like looks funky. Like this peach looks a little too much like a bottom. So we're like not able to sell it. >> Or lettuce got a little brown on it, throw the whole thing away. >> Yes, exactly, exactly, and that waste is unacceptable. So what we need to move toward is a model of open networks of governance where we have peer to peer distribution of finance and of resources in a way that allows people to aggregate around the marketplaces that are actually benefiting the way that they believe the world should work. So it's about creating a collective strategy of collective non-violence and eliminating harm, so obviously, you know, having a society that has enough proper incentives so that people are well off and that people are provided for, and I think blockchain will-- >> I noticed you're wearing a United Nations pin. >> Woo-hoo, yeah. And blockchain, I think, will also create this. >> John: I have one too. >> Let's up top. (slap) Yeah, I think blockchain will also help create universal basic income, but in addition to that, it's the idea that, if I'm living next door, I'll give two examples. So one is about the legality of the way that we contribute to the society. So let's say I have a next door neighbor. And let's say that this next door neighbor and I feel literally, we totally get along on everything, there's just one issue we feel we're like, I totally disagree with this, I totally disagree. And that issue is the use of, and I hope this isn't controversial to say, but anyway. So the use of medical marijuana, right. And it shouldn't be, because we can have two different opinions and the world can still work and that's the point. >> Well, in California, it's now legal to own marijuana. >> Yeah, for sure, it's legal here as well. So it's the idea that, if I, so let's say I'm a woman who, you know, I have someone in my life who was injured by a driver who was driving under the influence of marijuana. And so that's all I know about marijuana because I don't really do drugs, I've never been around drugs. So when I hear that word, I immediately think about the person in my life who was harmed because of, yes, and so immediately triggered, and I'm like, I don't want to support anything, I don't want to support anything to do with marijuana, I think marijuana is like the Devil's lettuce. And I have no interest in supporting marijuana. She never has to support marijuana, she doesn't have to. But her next door neighbor is a veteran with Parkinson's disease, her, me, whatever, is a veteran with Parkinson's disease, okay. And the only way that this man can move is, he's literally shaking, but when he smokes medical marijuana, he's actually able to, you watch and literally 30-45 minutes, he's upright, he looks like a normal healthy man. And so he says, "I believe that every, "after I fought in this, I believe every person "should have access to medical marijuana, "because this is the only way I'm able "to even operate my life." >> The different context. >> And I'm so, yes, exactly. And so what culture is really about is about understanding each other's context, that's even how reputation works. It's contextual awareness that provides greater understanding of who we are as individuals and the way we work together to make society work. So maybe they can mutually agree that he is not going to smoke while he's driving and he can pay to support everyone to have access who needs access to medical marijuana. >> Or he could finance Uber rides for them. You know, or whatever, I mean, these are mechanisms. >> Yes, yes, but it's the, yes, exactly, exactly. It's the idea that we are all, we're coming together to share context is a way that's not aggressive and not accusatory, so two people can believe two totally different things and still develop enough mutual respect to live together peacefully in a society. >> You know, the other too I'm riffing on that is that now KYC is a concept (mumbles) kicked around here, know your customer. I've been riffing on the notion of KYC for know your neighbor. And what we're seeing in these communities, even the analog world, people don't know who their neighbors are. Like, they don't actually even like care about them. >> Toni: For sure. >> You know, maybe I grew up in, you know, a different culture where, you know, everyone played freely, the parents were on the porch having their cocktail or socializing and watching the kids from the porch play on the lawn. Now I call that Snapchat, right. So I can see my kids Snapchat, so I'm not involved, but I have peripheral view. >> Toni: For sure. >> But we took care of each other. That doesn't happen much anymore, and I think one of the things that's interesting in some of these community dynamics that's been successful is this empathy about respect. They kind of get to know people in a non-judgmental way. And I think that is something that you see in some of these fragmented communities, where it's just like, if they just did things a little bit different. Do you agree, I see you're shaking your head, your thoughts on this? This super interesting social science thing that's, now you can measure it with digital or you can measure that kind of-- >> We can incentivize it. We can incentivize it. And that's the difference, measurement is one thing. Incentive is a behavior changer. Incentive is a behavior changer. And that is what we actually have to do in the way we think about the foundation of these systems, is it's not incentivizing competitive marketplaces that are like my way of thinking about this is right and your way of thinking about this thing is wrong, and like ah, it's not about that. At the end of the day like, I think we forget or misquote so much of, so many of the great thinkers of the last generation, like if you think about Darwin. What does everyone know about Darwin, right, it's like survival of the fittest. It's not what Darwin said, okay. It's misquoted and it's used, it's like one of those things where people who want to exploit-- >> It's a meme, basically. >> Yeah, people who want to exploit someone else's knowledge for their own ends will use that to, in some way, uplift the kind of like strategy of, you know, incentives of the time. What Darwin actually said was that human beings with the highest capacity for sympathy, qualities we now identify as altruism, compassion, empathy, reciprocity, will be the most likely to survive during hardship. Fundamentally, I mean, look at the state of the world today. It doesn't look good, it's like, you look at the way people interact with each other, it's like a virus that's attacking itself in an ecosystem that is our planet Earth, and we need to be, you know what is the antibody, our own sense of consideration for our fellow man. That is the antibody to violence. And so we can incentivize this, and we're going to have to because we're going to, AI, automation, these will fundamentally transform the way we think about jobs in a way that will liberate us like we've never known before. And once given the freedom, I think that we'll see the world start to change. >> Toni, I really appreciate you spending the time in this thought leadership conversation, riffing back and forth. Feels great and it's a great productive conversation. I got to ask you, how did you get there? I mean, who are you? I mean, you're amazing. Like, how did you get here, you obviously, Coin Telegraph's one of the projects you're running, great content. You're wearing the UN pin, I'm aligning with that. Got a great perspective. What's your story? Where did you come from originally, I mean... How did you get here? >> I think, you know, I don't know. I'm really connected to Saturn, I don't know where my home planet is. >> Which spaceship did you come in on? No, I mean, seriously, what's your background? How did you weave into this? 'Cause you have a holistic view on things, it's impressive. But you also can get down and dirty on the tech, and you have a good, strong network. Did you kind of back into this by accident on purpose, or was it something that you studied? What's the evolution that you have? >> Yeah, you know. I studied performance art and I was an artist all of my life. And I had a really big existential crisis, because I realized, as I was looking around, that technology was replacing every form. I remember the first time I watched an AI generate, this was maybe in like, I don't remember how, this was a long time ago, but I was essentially watching, before like the deep dream stuff, maybe like 2009 or 10. And I remember watching computers generate art. And I just was like, I was like mic drop, I was like anything that could ever be created can and will be created by computers, because these are, you are looking at this data, you can scan every art piece in the world and create an amalgamation of this in a way that extends so far beyond team and capacity that the form that we have used to express artistic integrity, all forms will, in some way, become obsolete as a form of creative expression. And I had this huge existential crisis as a performer, realizing that the value of my work was essentially, like, how long would the value of my work live on if no one is, I am not alive to continue singing the song. You don't remember the people who played Carmen, you remember Bizet who wrote the opera, you remember Carmen the character, but the life of the performer is like that of a butterfly. It's like you emerge from the cocoon, you fly around the world beautifully for a very short amount of time. And then you just, you know, stardust again. And so I had this huge existential moment, and it was a really big awakening call. It was as though the gravity of the universe came into the entire dimension of my being and said these, what you have learned has given you a skill, but this is not your path. So I went okay, I just need some time to like process that and so, 'cause this is my entire life, it's the only thing I ever imagined I would ever do. And so I ended up spending three months in silence meditating. And people are like whoa, like how did you do that? And I don't think people, I don't know, not that people don't understand, but I'm not certain that a lot of people have the level of this kind of existential moment that I experienced. And I couldn't have done anything else, I really just needed to take that time to process that I was actually reformulating every construct at the foundation of my own reality. And that was going to take, that's not something you just do overnight, right, like some people can do it more fluidly, but this was a real shift, a conscious shift. And so I asked myself three questions in that meditation, it was what is my purpose, what is the paradigm shift and where is my love. And so I just meditated on these three questions and started to, I don't know how deeply you've studied lucid dreaming or out of body experiences, but that's another, a conversation we can get into in another time, that was my area of study during that period. And so I ended up leaving the three months in silence and I just kind of, I started following my intuition. So I would just, essentially, sometimes I'd walk into a library and I would just shut my eyes and I would just walk around and I would touch books. And I would just feel what they felt like to me, like the density of their knowledge. And I would just feel something that I felt called to, and I would just pull it out of the shelf and just read it. And I don't know how to explain it-- >> (mumbles) Energy, basically-- >> I was guided, I was guided to this. This was in 2011. And so what I started getting into was propaganda theory, the dissolution of Aristotelian politics as an idea of citizen and state when we're really all consumers in a Keynesian economy structured by Edward Bernays, the inventor of propaganda, who essentially based our entire attitude of economic health on, you know, a dissolving human well being. Like, the evolution of our economic well being and our human well being were fundamentally at odds, and not only was that system non-sustainable, but it was a complete illusion. At every touch, point and turn, that the systems we lived in were illusions. And so is all of the world, right, like this whole world is an illusion, but these illusions in particular have some serious implications in terms of people who don't have the capacity, or not the capacity, everyone has the capacity, but who have not explored that deeply, right, who haven't gone that deep with themselves. >> And one of those books was like a tech book or was like-- >> It was just multiple, no, it was multiple books. And it's not that I would even read all of the books all of the way through. Sometimes I would just pick up a book and I would just open it to a certain page and I would read like a passage or a couple pages, and I'd just feel like that's all I need to read out of that book. It's, you just tune into it. >> When was your first trade on Bitcoin, first buy, 2011? >> You want to know something nuts? People always, people are like, "When did you first buy Bitcoin?" I was not, I didn't. So after I started, once you know, all this knowledge came to me, I just started talking about it, I was like, I've been given some wisdom, I just have to share it. So I started going out into the world and finding podiums and sharing. And that was when someone put a USB full of Bitcoin into my hands. I very rarely, I don't necessarily buy, I've just been gifted a lot. >> Good gifts. >> Toni: They've been great gifts, yeah. >> And then when did you start Coin Telegraph, when did that come online? >> So that was in 2013. I joined, the property had been operable for I think like three or four months. And some guys called me and they said, "We're just really impressed with you "and we want to work with you." And I said, "Well, that's nice," I was like, "But you don't have a business, right?" And they were like, "What do you mean?" And I was like, "Well, you have a blog, right?" And so I went in and I said, essentially like, here's, to scale the property, I was like, "Here's a plan for the next three years. "If we really want to get this property to where "it needs to be." I'm like, "Here are the programs that we need "to institute, here's like this entire, "countries we can be operable in "and then other acquisitions of other properties." I essentially went in and said like, "Here's the business model and the plan at scale," and they were just like, I think they were a little like, the first call that we had, I think they were just like, "We just called you to," it was a bold move, like, "We just called you to offer you something, "and you countered our offer by saying "we don't have a business?" It was one of those things, but they-- >> Well, it was the labor of love for them, right, I mean-- >> Well, for all of us, yeah, for all of us. >> When all you do is you're blogging, you're just sharing. And then you start thinking about, you know, how to grow, and you got to nurture it, you need cash. >> Yes, and so I essentially came in and then started, I was both editor in chief and CEO and co-founder of the property who helped bring in a lot of the network, build the reputation for the brand, create a scaling strategy. A lot of mergers and acquisitions, a lot of franchises and-- >> How many properties did you buy roughly, handful, six, less than six? >> So I would also say that-- >> Little blogs and kind of (mumbles) them together, bring people together, was that the thinking? >> Yeah, you know, what's interesting is media from all shapes and sizes, 15 to 20 offices in 25 different countries. I always say this when I talk about this, a very important lesson that I learned. How do you manage a team of 40 anarchists? You don't, you don't, that's the answer, you don't, you don't even like, you're like oh. I remember when I was like, "We're a team!" And someone was like, "No, we're not, "I don't believe in teams, I work for myself "and I don't need," I was like oh, wow. I was like oh-- >> John: The power of we, no. >> I was just like, all right, but it was a good learning experience, because I was like well, this is the way, these are your needs. So if that's your, I was like, well, let's embrace that, let's embrace the idea-- >> But that's the culture, you can't change it. >> And let's create the economy around that, let's actually do direct incentive for it, if you think that you're, if you want to be in this on your own, then let's say okay, we're going to make this fully free market economics and we're going to have a matter of consensus on whether or not someone who's exploiting the system, you write an article, you send it out, the number of views and shares that it gets from accounts that are, you know, proven verified, that is how much you get out of the bounty that's created from our ad sales, and if the community comes together in a consensus and says that someone wrote an article that was basically exploiting the system, like beer, guns, tits and weed plus Bitcoin and then they just shared it with everyone, then obviously, they would be weighted differently because the community would reach consensus so-- >> Change the incentive system. >> We just, I started, yeah, I started redesigning, essentially, once I had that moment, I was like okay, I was like, well, we really got to change the incentives here then because the incentives are not going to work like that. If that's the, if there's a consensus that that is the way you guys want to do things, then I got to change things around that. All right, cool, and so yeah, it was a really interesting awesome learning experience from like, you know, a team of like, maybe like 20 to 40 into, probably took it up 40, and then with all of the other, you know, companies and franchises, to about 435 people. And then just took the revenue from, yeah, just took, it was like skating revenue and then rocketing revenue. So that was really my role in the growth of the business and we're all, you know, it's amazing to see how these kind of blockchain holacracies work, you know, at a micro scale and at a macro scale. And what it really takes to build a movement, right. And then, in some ways, I guess it'd either become or create a meme. >> Well, I really appreciate the movement you've been supporting, we're here to bring theCUBE to the movement, our second show, third show we've been doing. And getting a lot more this year, as the ecosystem is coming together, the norms are forming, they're storming, they're forming, it's great stuff. You've been a great thought leader, and thanks for sharing the awesome range of topics here for theCUBE. >> For sure. >> Toni Lane here inside theCUBE, I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching our exclusive Puerto Rico coverage of CoinAgenda, we'll be right back. (energetic music)