>> Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering Google Cloud Next 2018. Brought to you by Google Cloud and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome back. It's theCUBE here in San Francisco, live coverage of Google Cloud Next 2018. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante, our next guest is Ben Evans, who is the director of strategic alliances at Cisco, and Connie Tang, director of product management at Cisco here to talk about the alliance with Google Cloud and the relevance of the partnership around the collab. Welcome to theCUBE, thanks for joining us. >> My pleasure to be here. >> So, we've been covering Cisco for a long time, most recently with theCUBE in Orlando, and DevNet creates huge surge of developer action going on across the Cisco ecosystem, not just network engineering stuff, the normal Cisco greatness, but up the stack with the collaboration side just cloud natives attracting and really giving a lot of energy to the developers and customers at Cisco. So, the partnership with Google is interesting. So, can you guys just share the big news, the Cisco news and how that relates to the Google Cloud. >> Yeah, absolutely, so firstly, Connie and myself have been working on this partnership for quite a while. And, as you'd said, there's multi, kind of, facets to this. There's the developer piece, so the SDKs are announcing around Android and the way that developers can now imbed calling and meeting and messaging inside their specific applications, their vertical applications. And, then there's also native integrations we're getting into around scheduling meetings from calenderings. I can go in and schedule a Webex meeting very easily. It was talked about on stage, 74 percent of, sort of, document collaboration involves some sort of co-collaboration, so it's a very kind of peanut butter and chocolate as you think about Cisco's portfolio of real time communications and meetings and how this is evolving into the team collaboration experience. Together with Google's portfolio in terms of AI and how that fits in to ultimate these work flows and make life easier for users. And, also just how this comes together in a very seamless way to enable this kind of real time collaboration and creation of documents. >> So, take us inside the partnership. How did it start? I mean, it seems like a match made in heaven. You guys aren't trying to create your own infrastructures of service. Google needs an enterprise presence, so obviously Cisco has a huge enterprise presence. But, how did it start and where did it start? >> We actually started engaging with Cisco over a year ago, and different groups start engaging because there's actually customer demand from our corporate enterprise customers wanting better integration of a collab portfolio into various aspects of G Suite. So, we worked with the calendering team because they're coming up with a brand new architecture, and so we're actually one of four front partners who work directly with them providing them feedback in what enterprises what, and then integrating our scheduling capabilities of Webex meetings directly into Google Calender. So that's one piece, and then we also work with the Chromebook group because more and more customers are starting to use and deploy Chromebook, and so they want to have an ability to start Webex meetings and be able to share content and actually join Webex meetings directly on Chromebook. So, there's another effort that went on separately. And then there's a third effort that goes on with the Chrome group where we're leveraging the WebRTC within Chrome, so that people can join Webex meeting directly without having to do download any client. So, they just open the web browser. They can have audio. They can have HD video. They can see the share. They can share content just on Chrome. >> When? >> This is what we've been waiting for with cloud. This is really, I want to expand on this notion of services. >> Yes. >> And service centric view because it has to be clean whether it's an EPI, a message que, or an event. The user experience's got to be integrated very cleanly. >> Yes. >> This is really kind of, the ah-ha moment of when people taste the Cloud, and that's the benefit. Can, because this is really interesting. You've got Webex, you've got G Suite. Two different applications. >> Very different, yes. >> This is the benefit of the services. Can you just explain the importance and why IT and why enterprises want this. >> Enterprises want ease of use. Ease of use, ease of access, and ease of deployment. So, Chrome solves that problem. There's no deployment required, right? It's already there, it's available on every desktop. And, the one simple click to join and schedule a meeting makes it easy to use, so with that combination, end use is adopted really, really quickly. So, we're seeing some of the fastest adoption of web clients based on those kind of ease of use and ease of joining. >> How has the product uptake been? Because if you have a seamless user experience, you're probably getting more customers coming in, integrating in... >> Yes. >> From G Suite and vice versa. They're getting lift. How is that partnership working? Can you share some color around that? >> Yes, as Connie said, we've really seen it's accelerating. One stat I'll share is during March, we were adding around 11 hundred new G Cal integrations every day, so we were seeing customers that were using Webex meeting, they were using G cal, and they wanted those things to work better together. So, integrating those calendars to make it easier to schedule and join meetings. So, yeah, that's 11 hundred a day. It's pretty good uptake considering we weren't really promoting it. It was just there and available to that existing customer base, so. >> What can you guys share to enterprise IT, application developers, or managers who have traditionally lived in a stone pipe world of like, let's build an app, and we'll distribute the app, and you log in, you do all the things, monolithic app. To a world that's services lead are service centric where you still do an app, but you got to think differently around some of the design criteria around integrating in with other apps. What's some of the best practices that you guys have found? Because you've seen the network all the way up to the application stack issues. You've got Kubernetes and all these new things. What are some of the best practices that companies should be developing around? >> So, what I've seen companies most concerned about is applications affecting other applications on the desktop, and hence, breaking some of their services. The web services kind of completely remove that. Because there's a web browser, they don't have to worry about it impacting any of their installed applications. And so, what we find out as IT looks into this mode of deployment, it's not really a deployment, it's an enablement. They actually really advertise it to their end users. They actually rather end users use the web client than to have to install, and they have to test and slow the roll out. >> What do you guys see as, I mean, I'm old enough to remember when Lotus Notes was the state of the art collaboration. (laughs) >> That's real old. Man, that's old. >> I was digging myself. So, now you're talking a lot about integration, simplifying the experience, obviously video has come into play. >> Yes. What do you guys see as the mega trends and maybe give us a little glimpse of the road map as to what we can expect going forward whether it's AI or other data? Where does that all fit in? >> Yeah, I think you nailed it. So, there's this kind of better together, easy join, it's just table stakes right now. The ability for me to easily join a meeting, but where that's really rapidly going is the AI space. So, how can I augment that meeting? Before I join, how do I know about you as individuals, what you care about, what's happening with your company? So, a company acquisition we did recently, you know, fits into that in terms of how do we start surfacing information about the people. If I'm in the meeting, if I want to be able to click on someone and get more context about them. What happened in my previous engagements, what have we previously talked about? How do we surface that up in a timely fashion? And, when again you think about Google Calender and the information it knows about you as an individual, Cisco with the kind of matrix of who you're calling and what meetings have taken place, there's kind of a tantalizing thing there about how you blend that together. So, you surface the information, you automate this kind of, the repetitive, more mundane tasks, and free the people up to focus more on innovation and collaboration relationships. >> And the analytics opportunity is pretty big. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> I mean Diane Green said in her keynote, security is the number one worry, AI is the number one opportunity. By freeing up the mundane tasks, automating that away, the value will shift to up the stack. We were using a metaphor with Jennifer Lynd from Google. You know, when the horse and buggy was, you know, killed by the car, those jobs went away. There was no need for stuff, you know, the horse, the hay, and all that stuff. IT, same thing. Things are shifting, operations are changing. >> Yeah. >> This is fundamental. >> Context is a great example of that. You know, if you look at what's happening in that market, you know, the predictions that they're call flows are going to decrease isn't really happening. What's happening is you're going to multi-channel, and people are doing the more basic stuff online, just fixing issues, but when it becomes complex, when it becomes relationship, it becomes high enough value, then you want the personal interaction, so I think the way personally I look at AI is it will free up computers. They're doing this kind of more repetitive finding patterns, but when it comes to talking to the doctor about, you know, your condition or you're trying to build relationships, there's things that people just naturally do very well. And, plowing through lots of data to find patterns, we don't do great, so. >> It's actually quite amazing when you look at the trends over the last decade or so in terms of collaboration. I mean, it used to be, I was joking about Lotus Notes, but it used to be you'd request people to show up 15 minutes early so you could sort out all the problems. And now today, if you're like a minute late, people are like texting you, "Where are you? Let's go." So, we become so much more productive, and the protocol has changed. So, when you think about how machine intelligence is going to affect productivity going forward, it's potentially massive. >> Yeah, we see massive opportunities. As you know, to really get the benefit from AI, you need some pretty big data sets, so again, just thinking about Webex for a second, six billion minutes a month in meetings. I'm not saying we're going to push all that straight into Google, but when you think about what's tied up in those six billion minutes. >> A lot of video. >> What's been discussed, how easily can I unlock that? How do I get insights from it? How do I train models? It's like, again, the combination of huge data sets. >> AI would be just amazing. You just go, "Hey, I missed that Webex. Give me the highlight reel." >> Yes. >> Exactly. >> That would be great. >> Not only that, but how do you customize that for the individuals? >> Or if I missed the first ten minutes, can I go scroll back? Can I actually review, get the transcription? And, if I need some additional information, can I just pull it up and it shows up, you know, for me within the meeting, right? So, there's just massive opportunities that we're looking at. >> And, the user expectations, the new experience, that's what people are really designing around, what they're expectations should be. >> Yes. >> And they're making that user... Okay, Connie and Ben, I want to get one last question in before we break. Two parts, for each of you. What's the most important story from your perspective here at the show this week that you're talking about and sharing, and what's next for you guys? Ben, we'll start with you. >> So, yeah, my two answers are firstly, the initial kind of integrations we're putting together. People should go check that out because, you know, there's some very compelling use cases that we're fixing there. But, the big item is Cisco and Google working together to really tackle this kind of future of work, and the combination of those two portfolios is going to unlock some really interesting opportunities, and that's what the teams are kind of getting together, working on, defining, and stay tuned to kind of see those phase two, phase three deliverables. >> Future words. Great, Connie, from a product perspective, what's the hottest things that you've been talking about here, most important, and then what's next. >> Yeah, for us, it's really the Google and Cisco coming together in a collaboration space, working together to make it much easier and simpler for customers to deploy and use the products. And, also to explore new opportunities in transcription and AI, leveraging Google Assist right to, and just make it even better in the future. >> Scale up the experience. >> Yes. >> Probably expect some great developer opportunities going on. >> Yes. >> Exploring and reinventing the enterprise. That was Diane Green's theme. She'll be here on theCUBE breaking it down. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. Live coverage, here we have Cisco collaboration inside theCUBE, big relationship, expansion with Google. New product integrations, the value of the services within the cloud. The new model for development and user experience. theCUBE bringing you all the content here on the floor. Stay with us for more live coverage after the short break. (upbeat music)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube presenting Cuban cloud brought to you by silicon angle in 2000 >>nine. Hal Varian, Google's chief economist, said that statisticians would be the sexiest job in the coming decade. The modern big data movement >>really >>took off later in the following year. After the Second Hadoop World, which was hosted by Claudette Cloudera in New York City. Jeff Ham Abakar famously declared to me and John further in the Cube that the best minds of his generation, we're trying to figure out how to get people to click on ads. And he said that sucks. The industry was abuzz with the realization that data was the new competitive weapon. Hadoop was heralded as the new data management paradigm. Now, what actually transpired Over the next 10 years on Lee, a small handful of companies could really master the complexities of big data and attract the data science talent really necessary to realize massive returns as well. Back then, Cloud was in the early stages of its adoption. When you think about it at the beginning of the last decade and as the years passed, Maurin Mawr data got moved to the cloud and the number of data sources absolutely exploded. Experimentation accelerated, as did the pace of change. Complexity just overwhelmed big data infrastructures and data teams, leading to a continuous stream of incremental technical improvements designed to try and keep pace things like data Lakes, data hubs, new open source projects, new tools which piled on even Mawr complexity. And as we reported, we believe what's needed is a comm pleat bit flip and how we approach data architectures. Our next guest is Jean Marc de Connie, who is the director of emerging technologies That thought works. John Mark is a software engineer, architect, thought leader and adviser to some of the world's most prominent enterprises. She's, in my view, one of the foremost advocates for rethinking and changing the way we create and manage data architectures. Favoring a decentralized over monolithic structure and elevating domain knowledge is a primary criterion. And how we organize so called big data teams and platforms. Chamakh. Welcome to the Cube. It's a pleasure to have you on the program. >>Hi, David. This wonderful to be here. >>Well, okay, so >>you're >>pretty outspoken about the need for a paradigm shift in how we manage our data and our platforms that scale. Why do you feel we need such a radical change? What's your thoughts there? >>Well, I think if you just look back over the last decades you gave us, you know, a summary of what happened since 2000 and 10. But if even if we go before then what we have done over the last few decades is basically repeating and, as you mentioned, incrementally improving how we've managed data based on a certain assumptions around. As you mentioned, centralization data has to be in one place so we can get value from it. But if you look at the parallel movement off our industry in general since the birth of Internet, we are actually moving towards decentralization. If we think today, like if this move data side, if he said the only way Web would work the only way we get access to you know various applications on the Web pages is to centralize it. We would laugh at that idea, but for some reason we don't. We don't question that when it comes to data, right? So I think it's time to embrace the complexity that comes with the growth of number of sources, the proliferation of sources and consumptions models, you know, embrace the distribution of sources of data that they're not just within one part of organization. They're not just within even bounds of organization there beyond the bounds of organization. And then look back and say Okay, if that's the trend off our industry in general, Um, given the fabric of computation and data that we put in, you know globally in place, then how the architecture and technology and organizational structure incentives need to move to embrace that complexity. And to me, that requires a paradigm shift, a full stack from how we organize our organizations, how we organize our teams, how we, you know, put a technology in place, um, to to look at it from a decentralized angle. >>Okay, so let's let's unpack that a little bit. I mean, you've spoken about and written that today's big architecture and you basically just mentioned that it's flawed, So I wanna bring up. I love your diagrams of a simple diagram, guys, if you could bring up ah, figure one. So on the left here we're adjusting data from the operational systems and other enterprise data sets and, of course, external data. We cleanse it, you know, you've gotta do the do the quality thing and then serve them up to the business. So So what's wrong with that picture that we just described and give granted? It's a simplified form. >>Yeah, quite a few things. So, yeah, I would flip the question may be back to you or the audience if we said that. You know, there are so many sources off the data on the Actually, the data comes from systems and from teams that are very diverse in terms off domains. Right? Domain. If if you just think about, I don't know retail, Uh, the the E Commerce versus Order Management versus customer This is a very diverse domains. The data comes from many different diverse domains. And then we expect to put them under the control off a centralized team, a centralized system. And I know that centralization. Probably if you zoom out, it's centralized. If you zoom in it z compartmentalized based on functions that we can talk about that and we assume that the centralized model will be served, you know, getting that data, making sense of it, cleansing and transforming it then to satisfy in need of very diverse set of consumers without really understanding the domains, because the teams responsible for it or not close to the source of the data. So there is a bit of it, um, cognitive gap and domain understanding Gap, um, you know, without really understanding of how the data is going to be used, I've talked to numerous. When we came to this, I came up with the idea. I talked to a lot of data teams globally just to see, you know, what are the pain points? How are they doing it? And one thing that was evident in all of those conversations that they actually didn't know after they built these pipelines and put the data in whether the data warehouse tables or like, they didn't know how the data was being used. But yet the responsible for making the data available for these diverse set of these cases, So s centralized system. A monolithic system often is a bottleneck. So what you find is, a lot of the teams are struggling with satisfying the needs of the consumers, the struggling with really understanding the data. The domain knowledge is lost there is a los off understanding and kind of in that in that transformation. Often, you know, we end up training machine learning models on data that is not really representative off the reality off the business. And then we put them to production and they don't work because the semantic and the same tax off the data gets lost within that translation. So we're struggling with finding people thio, you know, to manage a centralized system because there's still the technology is fairly, in my opinion, fairly low level and exposes the users of those technologies. I said, Let's say warehouse a lot off, you know, complexity. So in summary, I think it's a bottleneck is not gonna, you know, satisfy the pace of change, of pace, of innovation and the pace of, you know, availability of sources. Um, it's disconnected and fragmented, even though the centralizes disconnected and fragmented from where the data comes from and where the data gets used on is managed by, you know, a team off hyper specialized people that you know, they're struggling to understand the actual value of the data, the actual format of the data, so it's not gonna get us where our aspirations and ambitions need to be. >>Yes. So the big data platform is essentially I think you call it, uh, context agnostic. And so is data becomes, you know, more important, our lives. You've got all these new data sources, you know, injected into the system. Experimentation as we said it with the cloud becomes much, much easier. So one of the blockers that you've started, you just mentioned it is you've got these hyper specialized roles the data engineer, the quality engineer, data scientists and and the It's illusory. I mean, it's like an illusion. These guys air, they seemingly they're independent and in scale independently. But I think you've made the point that in fact, they can't that a change in the data source has an effect across the entire data lifecycle entire data pipeline. So maybe you could maybe you could add some color to why that's problematic for some of the organizations that you work with and maybe give some examples. >>Yeah, absolutely so in fact, that initially the hypothesis around that image came from a Siris of requests that we received from our both large scale and progressive clients and progressive in terms of their investment in data architectures. So this is where clients that they were there were larger scale. They had divers and reached out of domains. Some of them were big technology tech companies. Some of them were retail companies, big health care companies. So they had that diversity off the data and the number off. You know, the sources of the domains they had invested for quite a few years in, you know, generations. If they had multi generations of proprietary data warehouses on print that they were moving to cloud, they had moved to the barriers, you know, revisions of the Hadoop clusters and they were moving to the cloud. And they the challenges that they were facing were simply there were not like, if I want to just, like, you know, simplifying in one phrase, they were not getting value from the data that they were collecting. There were continuously struggling Thio shift the culture because there was so much friction between all of these three phases of both consumption of the data and transformation and making it available consumption from sources and then providing it and serving it to the consumer. So that whole process was full of friction. Everybody was unhappy. So its bottom line is that you're collecting all this data. There is delay. There is lack of trust in the data itself because the data is not representative of the reality has gone through a transformation. But people that didn't understand really what the data was got delayed on bond. So there is no trust. It's hard to get to the data. It's hard to create. Ultimately, it's hard to create value from the data, and people are working really hard and under a lot of pressure. But it's still, you know, struggling. So we often you know, our solutions like we are. You know, Technologies will often pointed to technology. So we go. Okay, This this version of you know, some some proprietary data warehouse we're using is not the right thing. We should go to the cloud, and that certainly will solve our problems. Right? Or warehouse wasn't a good one. Let's make a deal Lake version. So instead of you know, extracting and then transforming and loading into the little bits. And that transformation is that, you know, heavy process, because you fundamentally made an assumption using warehouses that if I transform this data into this multi dimensional, perfectly designed schema that then everybody can run whatever choir they want that's gonna solve. You know everybody's problem, but in reality it doesn't because you you are delayed and there is no universal model that serves everybody's need. Everybody that needs the divers data scientists necessarily don't don't like the perfectly modeled data. They're looking for both signals and the noise. So then, you know, we've We've just gone from, uh, et elles to let's say now to Lake, which is okay, let's move the transformation to the to the last mile. Let's just get load the data into, uh into the object stores into semi structured files and get the data. Scientists use it, but they're still struggling because the problems that we mentioned eso then with the solution. What is the solution? Well, next generation data platform, let's put it on the cloud, and we sell clients that actually had gone through, you know, a year or multiple years of migration to the cloud. But with it was great. 18 months I've seen, you know, nine months migrations of the warehouse versus two year migrations of the various data sources to the clubhouse. But ultimately, the result is the same on satisfy frustrated data users, data providers, um, you know, with lack of ability to innovate quickly on relevant data and have have have an experience that they deserve toe have have a delightful experience off discovering and exploring data that they trust. And all of that was still a missed so something something else more fundamentally needed to change than just the technology. >>So then the linchpin to your scenario is this notion of context and you you pointed out you made the other observation that look, we've made our operational systems context aware. But our data platforms are not on bond like CRM system sales guys very comfortable with what's in the CRM system. They own the data. So let's talk about the answer that you and your colleagues are proposing. You're essentially flipping the architecture whereby those domain knowledge workers, the builders, if you will, of data products or data services there now, first class citizens in the data flow and they're injecting by design domain knowledge into the system. So So I wanna put up another one of your charts. Guys, bring up the figure to their, um it talks about, you know, convergence. You showed data distributed domain, dream and architecture. Er this self serve platform design and this notion of product thinking. So maybe you could explain why this approach is is so desirable, in your view, >>sure. The motivation and inspiration for the approach came from studying what has happened over the last few decades in operational systems. We had a very similar problem prior to micro services with monolithic systems, monolithic systems where you know the bottleneck. Um, the changes we needed to make was always, you know, our fellow Noto, how the architecture was centralized and we found a nice nation. I'm not saying this is the perfect way of decoupling a monolith, but it's a way that currently where we are in our journey to become data driven, um is a nice place to be, um, which is distribution or decomposition off your system as well as organization. I think when we whenever we talk about systems, we've got to talk about people and teams that's responsible for managing those systems. So the decomposition off the systems and the teams on the data around domains because that's how today we are decoupling our business, right? We're decoupling our businesses around domains, and that's a that's a good thing and that What does that do really for us? What it does? Is it localizes change to the bounded context of fact business. It creates clear boundary and interfaces and contracts between the rest of the universe of the organization on that particular team, so removes the friction that often we have for both managing the change and both serving data or capability. So it's the first principle of data meshes. Let's decouple this world off analytical data the same to mirror the same way we have to couple their systems and teams and business why data is any different. And the moment you do that, So you, the moment you bring the ownership to people who understands the data best, then you get questions that well, how is that any different from silence that's connected databases that we have today and nobody can get to the data? So then the rest of the principles is really to address all of the challenges that comes with this first principle of decomposition around domain Context on the second principle is well, we have to expect a certain level off quality and accountability and responsibility for the teams that provide the data. So let's bring product thinking and treating data as a product to the data that these teams now, um share and let's put accountability around. And we need a new set of incentives and metrics for domain teams to share the data. We need to have a new set off kind of quality metrics that define what it means for the data to be a product. And we can go through that conversation perhaps later eso then the second principle is okay. The teams now that are responsible, the domain teams responsible for the analytical data need to provide that data with a certain level of quality and assurance. Let's call that a product and bring products thinking to that. And then the next question you get asked off by C. E. O s or city or the people who build the infrastructure and, you know, spend the money. They said, Well, it's actually quite complex to manage big data, and now we're We want everybody, every independent team to manage the full stack of, you know, storage and computation and pipelines and, you know, access, control and all of that. And that's well, we have solved that problem in operational world. And that requires really a new level of platform thinking toe provide infrastructure and tooling to the domain teams to now be able to manage and serve their big data. And that I think that requires reimagining the world of our tooling and technology. But for now, let's just assume that we need a new level of abstraction to hide away ton of complexity that unnecessarily people get exposed to and that that's the third principle of creating Selves of infrastructure, um, to allow autonomous teams to build their domains. But then the last pillar, the last you know, fundamental pillar is okay. Once you distributed problem into a smaller problems that you found yourself with another set of problems, which is how I'm gonna connect this data, how I'm gonna you know, that the insights happens and emerges from the interconnection of the data domains right? It does not necessarily locked into one domain. So the concerns around interoperability and standardization and getting value as a result of composition and interconnection of these domains requires a new approach to governance. And we have to think about governance very differently based on a Federated model and based on a computational model. Like once we have this powerful self serve platform, we can computational e automate a lot of governance decisions. Um, that security decisions and policy decisions that applies to you know, this fabric of mesh not just a single domain or not in a centralized. Also, really. As you mentioned that the most important component of the emissions distribution of ownership and distribution of architecture and data the rest of them is to solve all the problems that come with that. >>So very powerful guys. We actually have a picture of what Jamaat just described. Bring up, bring up figure three, if you would tell me it. Essentially, you're advocating for the pushing of the pipeline and all its various functions into the lines of business and abstracting that complexity of the underlying infrastructure, which you kind of show here in this figure, data infrastructure is a platform down below. And you know what I love about this Jama is it to me, it underscores the data is not the new oil because I could put oil in my car I can put in my house, but I can't put the same court in both places. But I think you call it polyglot data, which is really different forms, batch or whatever. But the same data data doesn't follow the laws of scarcity. I can use the same data for many, many uses, and that's what this sort of graphic shows. And then you brought in the really important, you know, sticking problem, which is that you know the governance which is now not a command and control. It's it's Federated governance. So maybe you could add some thoughts on that. >>Sure, absolutely. It's one of those I think I keep referring to data much as a paradigm shift. And it's not just to make it sound ground and, you know, like, kind of ground and exciting or in court. And it's really because I want to point out, we need to question every moment when we make a decision around how we're going to design security or governance or modeling off the data, we need to reflect and go back and say, um, I applying some of my cognitive biases around how I have worked for the last 40 years, I have seen it work. Or do I do I really need to question. And we do need to question the way we have applied governance. I think at the end of the day, the rule of the data governance and objective remains the same. I mean, we all want quality data accessible to a diverse set of users. And these users now have different personas, like David, Personal data, analyst data, scientists, data application, Um, you know, user, very diverse personal. So at the end of the day, we want quality data accessible to them, um, trustworthy in in an easy consumable way. Um, however, how we get there looks very different in as you mentioned that the governance model in the old world has been very commander control, very centralized. Um, you know, they were responsible for quality. They were responsible for certification off the data, you know, applying making sure the data complies. But also such regulations Make sure you know, data gets discovered and made available in the world of the data mesh. Really. The job of the data governance as a function becomes finding that equilibrium between what decisions need to be um, you know, made and enforced globally. And what decisions need to be made locally so that we can have an interoperable measure. If data sets that can move fast and can change fast like it's really about instead of hardest, you know, kind of putting the putting those systems in a straitjacket of being constant and don't change, embrace, change and continuous change of landscape because that's that's just the reality we can't escape. So the role of governance really the governance model called Federated and Computational. And by that I mean, um, every domain needs to have a representative in the governance team. So the role of the data or domain data product owner who really were understand the data that domain really well but also wears that hacks of a product owner. It is an important role that had has to have a representation in the governance. So it's a federation off domains coming together, plus the SMEs and people have, you know, subject matter. Experts who understands the regulations in that environmental understands the data security concerns, but instead off trying to enforce and do this as a central team. They make decisions as what need to be standardized, what need to be enforced. And let's push that into that computational E and in an automated fashion into the into the camp platform itself. For example, instead of trying to do that, you know, be part of the data quality pipeline and inject ourselves as people in that process, let's actually, as a group, define what constitutes quality, like, how do we measure quality? And then let's automate that and let Z codify that into the platform so that every native products will have a C I City pipeline on as part of that pipeline. Those quality metrics gets validated and every day to product needs to publish those SLOC or service level objectives. So you know, whatever we choose as a measure of quality, maybe it's the, you know, the integrity of the data, the delay in the data, the liveliness of it, whatever the are the decisions that you're making, let's codify that. So it's, um, it's really, um, the role of the governance. The objectives of the governance team tried to satisfies the same, but how they do it. It is very, very different. I wrote a new article recently trying to explain the logical architecture that would emerge from applying these principles. And I put a kind of light table to compare and contrast the roll off the You know how we do governance today versus how we will do it differently to just give people a flavor of what does it mean to embrace the centralization? And what does it mean to embrace change and continuous change? Eso hopefully that that that could be helpful. >>Yes, very so many questions I haven't but the point you make it to data quality. Sometimes I feel like quality is the end game. Where is the end game? Should be how fast you could go from idea to monetization with the data service. What happens again? You sort of address this, but what happens to the underlying infrastructure? I mean, spinning a PC to S and S three buckets and my pie torches and tensor flows. And where does that that lives in the business? And who's responsible for that? >>Yeah, that's I'm glad you're asking this question. Maybe because, um, I truly believe we need to re imagine that world. I think there are many pieces that we can use Aziz utilities on foundational pieces, but I but I can see for myself a 5 to 7 year roadmap of building this new tooling. I think, in terms of the ownership, the question around ownership, if that would remains with the platform team, but and perhaps the domain agnostic, technology focused team right that there are providing instead of products themselves. And but the products are the users off those products are data product developers, right? Data domain teams that now have really high expectations in terms of low friction in terms of lead time to create a new data product. Eso We need a new set off tooling, and I think with the language needs to shift from, You know, I need a storage buckets. So I need a storage account. So I need a cluster to run my, you know, spark jobs, too. Here's the declaration of my data products. This is where the data for it will come from. This is the data that I want to serve. These are the policies that I need toe apply in terms of perhaps encryption or access control. Um, go make it happen. Platform, go provision, Everything that I mean so that as a data product developer. All I can focus on is the data itself, representation of semantic and representation of the syntax. And make sure that data meets the quality that I have that I have to assure and it's available. The rest of provisioning of everything that sits underneath will have to get taken care of by the platform. And that's what I mean by requires a re imagination and in fact, Andi, there will be a data platform team, the data platform teams that we set up for our clients. In fact, themselves have a favorite of complexity. Internally, they divide into multiple teams multiple planes, eso there would be a plane, as in a group of capabilities that satisfied that data product developer experience, there would be a set of capabilities that deal with those need a greatly underlying utilities. I call it at this point, utilities, because to me that the level of abstraction of the platform is to go higher than where it is. So what we call platform today are a set of utilities will be continuing to using will be continuing to using object storage, will continue using relation of databases and so on so there will be a plane and a group of people responsible for that. There will be a group of people responsible for capabilities that you know enable the mesh level functionality, for example, be able to correlate and connects. And query data from multiple knows. That's a measure level capability to be able to discover and explore the measure data products as a measure of capability. So it would be set of teams as part of platforms with a strong again platform product thinking embedded and product ownership embedded into that. To satisfy the experience of this now business oriented domain data team teams s way have a lot of work to do. >>I could go on. Unfortunately, we're out of time. But I guess my first I want to tell people there's two pieces that you put out so far. One is, uh, how to move beyond a monolithic data lake to a distributed data mesh. You guys should read that in a data mesh principles and logical architectures kind of part two. I guess my last question in the very limited time we have is our organization is ready for this. >>E think the desire is there I've bean overwhelmed with number off large and medium and small and private and public governments and federal, you know, organizations that reached out to us globally. I mean, it's not This is this is a global movement and I'm humbled by the response of the industry. I think they're the desire is there. The pains are really people acknowledge that something needs to change. Here s so that's the first step. I think that awareness isa spreading organizations. They're more and more becoming aware. In fact, many technology providers are reach out to us asking what you know, what shall we do? Because our clients are asking us, You know, people are already asking We need the data vision. We need the tooling to support. It s oh, that awareness is there In terms of the first step of being ready, However, the ingredients of a successful transformation requires top down and bottom up support. So it requires, you know, support from Chief Data Analytics officers or above the most successful clients that we have with data. Make sure the ones that you know the CEOs have made a statement that, you know, we want to change the experience of every single customer using data and we're going to do, we're going to commit to this. So the investment and support, you know, exists from top to all layers. The engineers are excited that maybe perhaps the traditional data teams are open to change. So there are a lot of ingredients. Substance to transformation is to come together. Um, are we really ready for it? I think I think the pioneers, perhaps the innovators. If you think about that innovation, careful. My doctors, probably pioneers and innovators and leaders. Doctors are making making move towards it. And hopefully, as the technology becomes more available, organizations that are less or in, you know, engineering oriented, they don't have the capability in house today, but they can buy it. They would come next. Maybe those are not the ones who aren't quite ready for it because the technology is not readily available. Requires, you know, internal investment today. >>I think you're right on. I think the leaders are gonna lead in hard, and they're gonna show us the path over the next several years. And I think the the end of this decade is gonna be defined a lot differently than the beginning. Jammeh. Thanks so much for coming in. The Cuban. Participate in the >>program. Pleasure head. >>Alright, Keep it right. Everybody went back right after this short break.

>>from the >>Cube Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders around the globe. >>These are cloud native insights. Hi, I'm stupid, man. And welcome to Episode one of Cloud Native Insights. So this is a new program brought to you by Silicon Angle Media's The Cube. I am your host stew minimum, and we're going to be digging in to cloud native and, of course, cloud native like cloud before kind of a generic term. If you look at it online, there's a lot of buzzwords. There's a lot of jargon out there, and so we want to help. Understand what? This is what This isn't on And really happy to welcome back to the program to help me kick it off you piss car. He is an industry analyst. His company is T l A Tech. You. Thanks so much for joining us. >>Thanks, Dave. Glad we're >>all right. And one of the reasons I wanted you to help me kick this off. Not only have you been on the Cube, you know your background. I met you when you were the cto of a service provider over there in Europe, where you're Netherlands based. You were did strategy for a very large ah, supermarket chain also. And you've been on the program that shows like docker con in the past. You work in the cloud native space you've done consulting for. Some of the companies will be talking about today. But you help me kick this off a little bit. When you heard here the term cloud native. Does that mean anything to you? Did that mean anything back in your previous roles? You know, help us tee that up. >>So, you know, it kind of gives off a certain direction and where people are going. Right. Um so to me, Cloud native is more about the way you use cloud, not necessarily about the cloud services themselves. So, you know, for instance, I'll take the example of the supermarket. They had a big e commerce presence. And so we were come getting them to a place where they could, in smaller teams, deploy software in a faster, more often and in a safer way so that teams could work independently of each other, work on, you know, adding business value, whatever that may be for any kind of different company. That's a cloud native to me, Connie means using that to the fullest extent, using those services available to you in a way organizationally and culturally. That makes sense to you, you know, Go wherever you need to go. Be that release every hour or, you know, transform your s AP environment to something that is more nimble, more flexible, literally more agile. So what cloud native means so many things to so many people? Because it's immediately is not directly about the technology, but how you actually use it. >>Um, and u Pua and I are in, you know, strong agreement on this thing. One is you've noticed we haven't said kubernetes yet. We haven't talked about containers because cloud native is not about the tooling. We're, you know, strong participants in you know, the CN CF activities. The Cloud Native Computing Foundation, cube con and cloud native is a huge show. Great momentum one. We're big fans of too often people would conflate and they'd say, Oh, cloud native equals. I'm doing containers and I've, you know, deployed kubernetes one of the challenges out there. You talk about companies, you know? Well, you know, I had a cloud first initiative and I'm using multi cloud and all this stuff. It's like, Well, are you actually leveraging these capabilities, or did I shove things in something I'd railed about for the last couple of years? You talk about repatriation, and repatriation is often I went to go do cloud. I didn't really understand what I was doing. I didn't understand how to leverage that stuff. And I crawled back to what I was doing before because I knew how to do that. Well, so, you know, I think you said it really well. Cloud native means I'm taking advantage of the services. I'm doing things in a much more modern way. The thing I've loved talking to practitioners and one of things I want to do on this program absolutely is talk to practitioners is how have you gone through things organizationally, there are lots of things right now. Talk about like, thin ops. And, of course, all the spin off from Dev Ops and Dev SEC ops. And, like, how are we breaking through silos? How we're modernizing our environments, how we're taking advantage of new ways of doing things and new services. So yeah, I guess you You know, there are some really cool tools out there. Those are awesome things. But, you know, I love your viewpoint. Your perspective on often people in tech are like, Hey, I have this really cool new tool that I can use, you know? Can I take advantage of that? You know, do I do things in a new way, or do I just kind of take my old way and just make things maybe a little incrementally better? Hopefully with some new tooling. >>Oh, yeah. I mean, I totally agree. Um, you know, tooling is cool. Let me let me start by saying that I You know, I'm an engineer by heart, so I love tinkering with new new stuff. So I love communities I love. Um, you know that a new terra form released, for instance, I love seeing competition in the container orchestration space. I love driving into K native server lists. You know, all those technologies I like, But it is a matter of, you know, what can you do with them, right. So, for instance, has she corporate line of mine? I work on their hashtag off. Even they offer kind of Ah, not necessarily an alternative, but kind of adjacent approach to you what the CNC F is doing, and even in those cases, and I'm up specifically calling out Hashi Corp. But I'm kind of giving. The broader overview is, um, it doesn't actually matter what to use, Even though it'll help me. It'll make me happy just to play around with them. But those new tools have to mean something. They have to solve a particular problem. You have either in speed of delivery or consistency of delivery or quality of service, the thing you are building for your customers. So it has to mean something. So back in the day when I started out in engineering 15 years ago, a lot of the engineering loss for the sake of engineering just because, you know you could create a piece of infrastructure a little faster, but there was no actual business value to be out there. That's a lot of the engineering kind of was stuck inside of its own realm, or as what you see now is, if you can use terraform and actually get all of you know the potential out of you, it allow you to release offer more quickly because you're able to stand up infrastructure for that software more quickly. And so you know, we've kind of shifted from back in the in the attic or in the basement doing I t. Stuff that no one really understands. The one kind of perceives the business value of it into the realm of okay, If we can deploy this faster or we don't even need to use a server, we can use server lists. Then we have an advantage in the marketplace. You know, whatever marketplace that is, whatever application we're talking about. And so that's the difference to me. And that was that. You know, that's what CN CF is doing to me. That is what has she Corpus is helping build. That is what you know. A lot of companies that built, for instance, a managed kubernetes service. But from nine spectral crowd, all those kinds of companies, they will help, you know, a given customer to speed up their delivery, to not care about the underlying infrastructure anymore. And that's what this is all about to me. And that is what cloud native means use it in a way that I don't actually have to do the toil off the engineering anymore. There's loads of smart people working for, you know, the Big Three cloud vendors. There's loads of people working for those manage service providers, but he's used them so that you can speed up your delivery, create better software created faster, make customers happy. >>Yeah, it's a lot to unpack there. I want to talk a little bit about that landscape, right When you talk about, you know, cloud native, maybe a little compare contrast I think about, you know, the wave of Dev ops and for often people like, you know, Dev Ops. You know, that's a cultural movement. But there's also tooling that I could buy to help me along that weighs automation, you know, going agile methodology. See, I CD are all things that you're like. Well, is this part of Dev Ops, isn't it? There's lots of companies out there that we saw rows rode that wave of Dev ops. And if you talk about cloud native, you know the first thing you know, you start with the cloud providers. So when I hear you talking about, how do we get rid of things that we don't need to worry about? Well, for years, we heard Amazon Web services talk about getting rid of undifferentiated heavy lifting. And it's something that we're huge fans off you talk about. What is the business outcome? It's not. Hey, I went from, you know, a stand alone server to I did virtualized environments. And now I'm looking container ization or serverless. What can I get rid of? How do I take advantage of native services and all of those cloud platforms? One of the huge values there is, it isn't Hey, I deployed this and maybe it's a little bit cheaper and maybe a little better. But there's that that is really the center of where innovation is happening not only from the platform providers they're setting themselves, but from that ecosystem. And I guess I'll put it out there. One of the things I would like to see from Cloud Native should be that I should be able to take care of take advantage of innovation wherever it is. So Cloud Native does not mean it must live in the public cloud. It does not necessarily mean that I'm going, you know, full bore, multi cloud everywhere. I've had some great debates with Corey Quinn, on the Cube Online and the like, because if you look at customer environments today, you know, yes, they absolutely have their data centers. They're leveraging, typically more than one public cloud. SAS is a big part of the picture and then edge computing and pulls everything away into a much more distributed architecture. So, you know, I'm glad you brought up. You know, Hashi, a company you're working with really interesting. And if you talk about cloud native, it's there. They're not trying to get people to, oh, use multiple clouds because it's good for us. It's they. Hey, the reality is that you're probably using multiple clouds, and whether it's one cloud or many clouds or even in your data center, we have a set of tools that we can offer you. So you know, Hashi, you mentioned, you know, terra form vault. You know, the various tooling is that they have open source, you know, big play in this environment, both under the CN CF umbrella and beyond. Give us a little bit as to, you know, where are the interesting places where you see either vendors and technology today, or opportunity to make these solutions better for users. >>So that's an interesting question, because I literally don't know where to begin. The spectrum is so so broad, it's all start off with a joke on this, right? You cannot buy that helps. But the vendors were sure try and sell it to you. So it's kind of where you know, the battle is is raging on its getting foothold into an organization. Um, and you see that? You know, you see companies like, how is she doing that? Um, they started out with open source tooling that kind of move into the enterprise realm. Um, you solve the issues that enterprises usually have, and that's what the club defenders will trying to you as although you know, the kind of kick start you with a free service and then move you up into their their stack. And that's you know, that's where Cloud native is kind of risky because the landscape is so fragmented, it is really hard to figure out. Okay, this tool, it actually solves my use case versus this one doesn't. But again, it's in the ecosystem in this ecosystem already, so let's let's still use it just because it's easier. Um, but it does boil the disk a lot of the discussion down into. Basically, it's a friction. How much effort does it take to start using something? Because that's where and that's basically the issues enterprises are trying to solve. It's around friction, and it used to be friction around, you know, buying servers and then kind of being stuck with him for 4 to 5 years. But now it is the vendor lock in where people in organizations have to make tough decisions. You know, what ecosystems am I going to buy into it? It's It's also where a lot of the multi cloud marketing comes from on the way down to get you into a specific ecosystem on your end companies kind of filling that gap, helping you manage that complexity and how she corpus is one of those examples in my book that help you manage that multi cloud ah challenge. So but yeah, But it is all part of that discussion around friction. >>Yeah, and I guess I would start if you say, as you said, it is such a broad spectrum out there. If you look in the developer tooling marketplace is, there's lots of people that have, you know, landscapes out there. So CN cf even has a great landscape. And you know, things like Security, you no matter wherever I am and everywhere that I am. And there's a lot of effort to try to make sure that I can have something that spans across the environment. Of course, Security, you know, huge issue in general. And right now, Cohen, 19. The global pandemic coming on has been, you know, putting a spotlight on it even more. We know shared responsibility models where security needs to be. Data is at the center of what we're talking about when we've been talking for years about companies going through their transformation, I hadn't talked about, you know, digital transformation. What that means is, at the end of the day, you need to be data driven. So there's lots of companies, you know, big movement and things like ml ops. How can I actually harness my data? I said one of the things I think we got out of the whole big data wave. It was that bit flip from, Oh my God, their data everywhere. And maybe that's a challenge for me. It now becomes an opportunity and often times somewhere that I can have new value or even new business models that we can create around data. So, you know, data security on and everyone is modernizing. So, you know, worry a bit that there is sometimes, you know, cloud native washing. You know, just like everything else. It's, you know, cloud enabled. You know, ai ready from an infrastructure standpoint, you know, how much are you actually leveraging Cloud native? The bar, we always said, is, you know, if you're putting something in your data center, how does that compare against what I could get if I'm doing aws azure or Google type of environment? So I have seen good progress over the last couple of years in what we used to call it Private Cloud. And now it's more Ah, hybrid environment or multi cloud. And it looks and acts and is managed much more like the public cloud at a lot of that. Is that driver for developers? So you know Palmer, you know, developers, developers, developers, you know, absolutely. He was right as to how important that is. And one of the things I've been a little bit hardened at is it used to be. You talked about the enterprise and while the developers were off in the corner and, you know, we need to think about them and help enable them. But now, like the Dev Ops movement, we're trying to break down those silos. You know, developers are much more in the workflow. When I look at tools out there not only get hub, you know, you talked about Hashi, you know, get lab answerable and others. Often they have ways to have nothing to developers. The product owners and others all get visibility into it. Because if you can get, you know, people in the organization all accessing the same work stream the way that they need to have it there. There's goodness there. So I guess final question I have for you is you know, what advice do we have for practitioners themselves? Often, the question is, how do I get from where I've been? So where I'm going, This whole discussion of Cloud native is you know, we spent more than a decade talking about cloud, and it was often the kind of where in the movement and the like So what? I want to tee up with cloud native is discussion, really for the next decade. And you know, if I'm, you know, a c i o If I'm in, i t how do I make sure that I'm ready for these next opportunities while still managing? You know what I have in my own environment. >>So that kind of circles back to where we started this discussion, right? Cloud native and Dev ops and a couple of those methodologies they're not actually about the tooling. They are about what to do with them. Can you leverage them to achieve a goal? And so my biggest advice is Look for that goal. First, have something toward towards because if you have a problem, the solution will present itself. Um, and I'm not saying go look for a problem. The problems, they're already It's a matter of, um, you know, articulating that problem in a way that your developers will actually understand what to do. And then they will go and find the tools that are needed to solve that particular problem. And so we turn this around in a sense that so finally, we are at a point where we can have business problems. Actually, solved by I t in a way that doesn't require, you know, millions of upfront investment or, you know, consultants from an outside company. Your developers are now able to start solving those problems, and it will maybe take a while. They may need some outside help Teoh to figure some stuff out, But the point is, we can now use you know, these cloud resource is these cloud native services in such a small, practical way that we can actually start solving these business problems in a real way. >>Yeah, you actually, earlier this year I've done a series of interviews getting ready for this type of environment. You know, one of the areas I spent a bunch of time trying to dig in. And to be frank, understand has been server lists. So, you know, people very excited about server lists. You know, one of the dynamics always is, You know, everything we're talking about with containers and kubernetes driving them to think about that. I always looked as container ization was kind of moving up the stack in making infrastructure easier. The work for applications, but something like serverless it comes, top down. It's it's more of not the tooling, but how do I build those applications in those environments and not need to think at least as much about the infrastructure? So server lists Absolutely something we will cover, you know, containers, kubernetes what I'm looking for. Always love practitioners love to somebody. You you've been, you know, in that end, user it before startups. Absolutely. We'll be talking to as well as other people you know, in the ecosystem that you want to help, have discussions, have debates. You know, we don't have, you know, a strong. You know, this is the agenda that we have for cloud native, but I really want to help facilitate the dialogue. So I'll give you a final word here. Anything You know, what's exciting you these days when you talk to your peers out there, you know, in general, you know, it can be some tools, even though we understand tools are only a piece of it or any other final tips that you have in this market >>space. Well, I want to kind of go go forward on on your statement earlier about server lists without calling, You know, any specific serverless technology out there specifically, but you're looking at those technologies you'll see, But we're now able to solve those business problems. Um, without actually even needing I t right. So no code low code platforms are very adjacent to you to do serverless movement. Um, and that's where you know, that's what really excites me of this at this point, simply because, you know, we no longer need actual hardcore engineering as a trait Teoh use i t to move the needle forward. And that's what I love about the cloud native movement that it used to be hard. And it's getting simpler in a way also more complex in a way. What we're paying someone else Teoh to solve those issues. So I'm excited to see where you know, no code low code survivalism those the kinds of technologies will take us in the next decade. >>Absolutely wonderful. When you have technology that makes it more globally accessible There, obviously, you know, large generational shifts happening in the workforce. You Thank you so much for joining us, >>actually, Sue. >>All right. And I guess the final call to action really is We are looking for those guests out there, so, you know, practitioners, startups people that have a strong viewpoint. You can reach out to me. My emails just stew Stu at silicon angle dot com where you can hit me up on the twitters. I'm just at stew on there. Also. Eso thank you so much for joining us. Planning to do these in General Weekly cadence. You'll find the articles that go along with these on silicon angle dot com. Of course. All the video on the cube dot net I'm stew minimum in and love to hear more about your cloud Native insights >>Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

>> Oh, from our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley. Palo ALTO, California.  This is a Cube Conversation. >> Hello Everyone. Welcome to this special cube conversation. I'm Childfree, host of The Cube, cofounder of Silicon Angle Media Inc and the Cube. We're here with Andy Cunningham, who is the president and founder of Cunning in collective and also the author of the book. Get to ah ha! Bestseller on line four categories on Amazon E book. Great book. I recommend all Andy. Welcome to the Cube. Great to see you. >> Hey, it's great to be here. Good to see you. You're a thought >> leader. Just what you've been. You've seen many ways of innovation. You've done so much in your career. >> Big, minimal experience. And >> we were all old here. We've no ageism issues here. It's silken angle, but But you've done so much on DH communications and PR. PR is part of communications. You've you've seen it all. You've done it all. And now you're helping cos I've got a great book out, which I recommend everyone should get getting toe really kind of breaks down thirty five years of experience into one book. That you had a talk about the book on your firm for stuff about Connie and collected quick pleasure. >> So Cunningham  >> Collective is a small marketing consultancy that focuses on positioning, which in my opinion, is the epicenter of marketing. If you dont position yourself well for success, you're never going to achieve success. So the >> book is >> about a framework for figuring out how to position yourself. And it's a framework I developed probably around seventeen years ago. But I've been using it over the last seventy years with clients, and I find that it's super successful, especially with technology companies, and because it's an actual step by step sort of framework. So the book tells you how to do it. And then there were six case studies at the back of the book that >> show >> Positioning in action. >> I want to get a book at some specific questions on the positioning, but I want to get your take on because you've seen many waves around PR public relations, which is corporate communications and communications in general. Over the years, where are we now? Because you're seeing you know, the media business change face. What's on the front page? Of all the news these days around how they sucked all the data in and fake news. All these things are happening Cos still need to get the word out. You know, New Channel's new realities take us through how you see the evolution of what the old way is in the new way are of communications. >> So PR was >> actually invented by a guy in the nineteen twenties named Eddie Bernays. And Eddie Bernays actually figured out that if you created a stunt like situation, you could get the journalist to cover it. He was very strategic about it. It sounds, sounds kind of, you know, loopy. But he was very strategic about it, and he actually invented the concept that he actually went to the phrase public relations, and he was modeling it after propaganda. That was the that was where he came up with that phrase. So it was like that for quite a long time until we got into an era of what I would call influence her marketing, you know, now we call it influencer marketing. But back in the you know when when there was a lot of investigative journalism going on, it was really just about who's who are the influencers that you need to influence in order to get them to say what you want them to say about your company or your product. So that was what my old boss, Regis McKenna called that, he said. She said, Journalism, if you're going to launch something into the marketplace, you need to get all the he said. And the she says to say what you want them to say before you actually say it yourself, because the journalists are gonna go back to those people and they're going to corroborate your story or not. So the idea was influenced the influencers. And then you can get your story that lasted for about probably thirty years, that era. Now we're in an era, then I call it's the era of content, marketing. And really, what happens today is you almost don't even need the journalists at all, because first of all, there aren't very many of them left. And second of all, there are so many channels available to ourselves as as communicators that if you build a digital footprint that has a great story and it that is compelling and consistent, and you keep saying the same key messages over and over again, you can build yourself a digital footprint that actually becomes starts to take over the word of mouth that we talked about earlier because we're the mouth is really what it's all about. But word of mouth hap and today because from results from a giant digital footprint about your story. >> I remember back in business school back in the day in the nineties when I got my MBA advertising class would break down. You need to copy strategy because, you know, reach media, print ads and radio really was the old school media and frequency was was a certain first radio print. You have time to read it so all the specs get laid out. Reaches reach, Right? So you broadcast cable or TV? The impression >> yeah, kind of digital brings >> everything kind of weaves it all together, but you mentioned frequency. Why is frequencies so important? Because is that because of the targeting, is that because there's not a lot of reaches more specialized? >> Well, it's still it's still the same reason. >> So there's a thing called the marketing rule of seven, and that means that a person needs to hear your message seven times before it. It seeps into their brain, and they actually either decide to do something about it or not do something about it. But that's what creates awareness seven times. So that still is true today as it was before. But now it's so much easier because now you don't have to buy ads to do it. You don't even have to pay a PR person to do it. You just fill your own social channels, your own website, your own blog's your own vlogs, your own video. You just fill up your own personal channels, however many there that you have with your own story. And then once it's out there as a digital footprint, then it's time to start talking to the journalism community, which is smaller than it used to be. But those who are left are pretty good. The Washington Post is pretty good. The New York Times is pretty good. So you call up the guy at The New York Times and you pitched him on your story, and instead of trying to spend a bunch of time pitching him, you just refer him back to someone of your channels. He Googles that he gets online, and he sees, Oh, my God, there's a giant story here because you've built the story. So you have so much more controlled today. We have so much more control over our stories. >> So the way to pitch, then based on what you're saying is to have the raw materials out there so they can make their story >> exactly. Put it together. We put it >> out there, and then the journalists just find it. It's like an Easter egg hunt. Look under that tree >> there. Well, here's a clip >> of an expert that's talking about something you might be interested in. This is the new model. Have the assets. Well, actually, we we love that came in what we do. But I want to get that to the book and the years of experience you have on this. But before we do that, I got to ask you when I was watching the Steve Jobs movie. You know, you're on the stage and you're part of that. >> You must get, well, an actress actress once you get your >> role. You were very instrumental, hectic days, people who know Steve and know the apple days. What >> did you >> learn from that? That's in the book from the Apple days. And how does and what has changed from the apple days. Now is there some things that are similar to the world's changed. But what are some of the key those key Learnings that that those magical moments. >> So my biggest >> key learning was ice. We spent about six months? Was Steve working on the messaging for the launch of the Macintosh, and we got it down to a Siri's of what I would I now call means that were just very, very. The computer for the rest of us was one of them, right? Everybody remembers that one small footprint was another one nobody remembers. Any more easy to use was another one. There was a Siri's of these things to explain the Macintosh. We then went through a process of educating one hundred journalists about about that and pumping them with those key messages at every juncture. Then we go to De Anza College and we did the big launch. We said those messages again and was a bunch of TV people around and everybody you know, everybody reported on it and I'm driving home in the car. After the show was over with, I turn on the radio and there's the messages that I had written, coming back at me over and over and again and change the station. Same thing over and over again. The Macintosh was launched today, and this is what everyone is saying. The same thing is, it was it gave me chills. It was like, Wow, this really works. And that lesson that I learned with Steve is the same lesson Eddie Bernays learned a hundred years ago. Its the same lesson Regis McKenna learned with influencing the influencers. And it's the same lesson people can learn today. You just you just get too. You get, too, ah ha! With a slightly different strategy. And today it's about building a big digital footprint before you ever talk to anybody. >> And I think this is key to the book of one of the things that you mentioned earlier. That's clearly in the book, and this is a lesson for the folks. Watching on and learn from this is that positioning is critical. Before the branding, the knee jerk reaction from most people. A new person Let's re branded system New Low goes out there. You're taking it a contrarian view on >> the sea >> or race on experience and success. Position first brand later or had second thoughts on that Wise wise is so important, specific successes you had. But what other reasons are important? >> Well, I got I learned this because >> the first part of my career I would I would get called in after somebody had already hired a branding firm and they re branded everything, Got a new new logo. New tagline, new color palette, all of this stuff and a few bits of copy that were really sexy and interesting. But they were finding it wasn't sticking. It wasn't making a difference in their in their sales, because, really, at the end of the day, we're all here to sell stuff, right? So I would come in and I would realize, Oh my God, you did all this first you didn't figure out your positioning strategy. Like what? Who are you in the market? And why do you matter? Those two questions are the two most important questions anybody can ask themselves. Is a market or a CEO? Who are you and why do you matter if you can't answer those questions? Doing a branding exercise is a waste of money. >> Talk about >> the conflict involved when you work for the client or when you have to get to this moment. This Ahamo sometimes is not a parent, sometimes is pretty clear. Sometimes you might think you're one, but you're really another. There's always maybe opinions about what, what people are in terms of a company internally amongst executives or the stakeholders. >> Yeah, how do you How do you figure it out? Is heroic >> golden rule or what's your What's your Tell them how to get to that moment of that self reflection >> is sure that sort of that's actually >> the key point of the book. It's it's based positioning. Really good positioning should be based on what your DNA as a company is, and the book tells you how to determine what is your DNA. But the the end of the day. They're three kinds of companies. There are product focus cos I happen to call them mechanics. There are customer focus, cos I call them mothers, and they're our concept, Focus Cos I call them missionaries. And interestingly, each of these types of companies do things entirely differently. They talk about different things and meetings. They hire different kinds of people. They train them differently. They measure success differently. They market themselves differently. There's actually, the DNA is reflected in there actions. So when I'm sitting around a workshop with a client, we have to determine Are they a mother? Are they a missionary or are there mechanic before we can actually figure out how to create marketing around them? So that's the biggest thing is there's some people over here. So we're a product company. These peoples, they know we're trying to change the world. And these people say, No, no, no, we're all about the customer and the discussion that you have around that is actually the where the ah ha moment comes When you decide okay, we really are a customer focus company doesn't mean the other two things go away. They just take a back seat to the marketing. So everybody has to agree that that's what they're going to move forward with. And that's what makes it. It's so much fun. It's like it's like doing and Myers Briggs test for a company. You know, everybody loves that, right? Oh, I'm in I n t j M e. And whatever the >> letters it was, I'm not that I'm really something else, >> but there's always confident. But >> you >> also mentioned the book that people can change, too. So you start out as something. Maybe a missionary evolve based upon the business changed. Talk about that, >> Yeah. So let's talk about Apple >> for a second cause that's the company that definitely was a missionary, and missionaries exist to change behavior on a fundamental level. And that was what Steve Jobs was all about, right? So when >> he was >> running the company even before he was running it, but he was a big influence, or there he basically was a missionary company. He was trying to change behavior, and that's what the Macintosh was all about. But after he passed away, he left the assets of the company in the hands of Tim Cook, who, by the way, is an amazing, amazing caretaker of those assets. I mean, he's grown them. He's turned them into it, turned the company into one of the world's most valuable companies. But unfortunately, he's not a missionary, and what he has done is he has kind of tried to keep the missionary thing going. But he hasn't been successful doing that. So what's happened is the market is turning Apple into a product focus company, and the leadership is not steering the company that direction they are trailing, so it's happening to ample, in other words. So you're going to start to see Apple focus more on Warren product over the years, which they which they have been. But they're starting to have some product issues, and I think that's the result of them, not it's tearing the company directly into this, >> finding that DNA and get filling the young count or hiring people toe >> exactly. Exactly. >> Just on that same point. Amazon is a company that is doing this to the market. So Amazon started as a product company, and now they've steered their steering themselves purposefully into a customer focus company. And if you go online and check out their new mission statement, it's to be Earth's most customer centric company. And this is the reason Jeff Bezos bought Zappos a number of years ago Wasn't because Jeff couldn't figure out how to sell shoes online. Of course he could. It was because he was buying that customer centric culture, So he's purposefully steering the company into the customer direction so >> you can change your DNA, >> but it ain't easy. >> I've any Jesse. Many times become a good friend on the Cube as well. He's the word customer so many times we can see the frequency, but they've been talking customer for a long time. So you say they were product company >> with his Amazon. Amazon lands >> on Web services. The missionary and a product focus because I think product would be. I think it's safe once >> I think early, early, early >> on meaning they started this customer transition probably five, six years ago, so but they were very much early on a product company, I think in bases his head. They were actually a missionary. But he never he never would go out and say that. What did he say about Amazon? Were online bookseller and oh, by the way, books are going so well now we're going to do music, and now we're going to, you know. And then >> it's product. >> It took about its product. It was product product product until he decided that he was going to eat the universe one bite at a time. And so, in order to be successful with that, he has to have a customer he feels he has to have customer relationships that are going to stick with him over the course of a lifetime. >> So you know a little about the Cube. What's the Cube? What are we? >> I think you're a missionary. I mean, you're trying to change >> behavior on a fundamental level, and, you know it's, um it's amazing what you've done. You know, we had this great conversation beforehand, and I learned about all the new things you're working on, and it's groundbreaking, groundbreaking stuff. >> Okay, Final question on the book is the funniest. Our craziest reaction you've had to it, either someone emailing You owe our ceremonial because it's pretty inspiring. You break it down free simply. But it's really a core fundamental practice. And I've read a lot of marketing books in my day. A lot of you know, these office come out. Process improvement. This is cuts to the chase. It's >> really thank you. Thank you. What's the big waves >> you heard or crazy? >> Well, I this is This is the >> most recent thing I can think of. I I ended up becoming number number one on Amazon's e book thing and four categories, just like two weeks ago, and I got Mohr social media coverage on that than >> anything else in my entire life with the most amazing >> thing that I've ever seen in all these. Congratulations. And, you >> know, they're they're categories. >> Not like this. Not like your New York Times best seller. It's like you're the best multi marketing, you know, book here, The best small business marketing book, those kinds of things. And it just was just blew up. It went viral. >> That's how it was all online. What made you write the book was That was the moment. When was the ah ha moment for you saying, You know what? I got to put the book together. Was it something that you had in mind? That you get this data collecting of institutional knowledge of the trade? When was the ah, ha moment for you to write the book? >> Well, I this framework that I developed here has been working for me really successfully for, like, seventeen years. And I just decided that wow, other people should know how to do this. You know, because when we charge when we hired when that when we hire when someone hires us, it's like one hundred fifty thousand dollars worth of worth of work to do what we do, they could do it for twenty two ninety nine or whatever the heck >> this thing costs these days. And you could occasionally you get a book out there to get an audio book as well. So s so I really wanted >> to spread the word about this framework in this methodology, cause I really believe that my, my inside my core of myself, that the epicentre of great marketing is positioning. And if you don't get that right, you will never succeed with any of the rest of it. So do >> the great folks. You have a great track record. I've seen personal your sex success of up close perambulations on that. Let's talk about cos now I want to get backto successful companies. He's a lot of conversation. I'd build a rocket ship. So you we live in Silicon Valley. There are rocket >> ships that there are, >> you know, go big or go home. Blitz Scaling his Reid, Hoffman would say, I endorse that one hundred percent think there's use cases clearly for blitz scaling. Other people have been throwing him under the bus saying that culture is not what we want and build a still stable business. And so the debate aside, there's two types of companies there's the Okay, I'm going to build this company. I might not know when they're when the growth's gonna be there. And then there's the big venture back category changer rocket ships. Can you talk about the success criteria in your mind of both companies around positioning approaches, things that you've seen in the past that work well, >> I think companies that understand who they are and why they matter are the ones that succeed. And it's also important that they have a good leader, a good, strong leader. But if you don't know who you are and why you matter, you can't build a new category. You can't even launch a new product. So I, >> you know, take a look at some of the companies that have done that. Well, Netflix has done that extremely well, right? Airbnb has done that extreme slack has done that really well. Microsoft is doing it really well again, right? They went through a downtime, and now you know their new CEO, Satya Nadella, is doing an unbelievable job with positioning. There's so much a product company, and he's not trying to make them into a customer. Companies trying to double down on the product so and Netflix is a is a missionary company there change behaviour on a fundamental >> of Microsoft's a great example because I think that's something into anything radical. In the product side, they looked at the tailwind of Cloud computing an A I and said, Let's throw the sails up there and let's let's get around behind it >> and grand source. >> And then they branded it. So they positioned themselves as a Claude company, and then they branded it. As as you're so >>On the tail winds concept of trends, Pat Gelsinger said that if you're not out in front of that next wave, you could be driftwood. Riding the waves are certainly a big part of jumping on a successful or tail wind some call it how important that have that positioning time to something that's trendy or something. >> Oh, that's a great question, because it's because the context in which you are actually putting something into the market is critical. So you have to really understand what are the waves that you want to ride and can ride. And don't try to be riding a wave that passed five years ago. Or that hasn't shown up yet. You might think there's a wave coming. That's the biggest danger of a lot of these high tech start ups is that they see a vision of something way down the line, and there's no way for them to ride today. And they launched their technology. But too early >> and to your point. If they don't have the positioning right, they won't be able to ride it. You >> know what they want. They won't be able to ride it. So if they if if they did a proper positioning exercise before that, they would realize that they're context in which they're doing this is not right for what they're saying. So have to pivot a little bit. These is where pivots come from, right? We have to pivot a little bit to make yourself relevant for the market today, and that's an important thing. >> Andy. Final question for the folks watching saying, I love the book. I'm gonna get it might have helped might need help and saying I need to call Andy and the team or figure it out. What are some of the tell signs that they're not getting it right or what? If some things when they need to call for help and howto people moved to the next level, some people might say, Hey, you know, we need help. We can't get concensus. The leader might not be strong enough to be a leadership transition. Could be a new wave that people have identified. Yeah. What? This is a tough challenge of self awareness. What is that? Some of the tell signs And how does >> > somebody actually make the change? It is a tough, and most CEOs are not into it enough of themselves to know to know those things. So what happens is they launch it and then they don't get traction. So the biggest reason why people call me is they're not getting traction. Now, the really the really smart ones do more analysis, like what you're talking about. Oh, there's something has changed in the context. So I better shift this or, you know, a competitors come up with something that sounds awful on awful lot like ours. Maybe we better get ahead of that. But that takes a really strategic CEO. And there are some of those out there, But not everyone is >> okay. So great book here. Getting toe, huh? Everyone great. It's a good thing I read. It. Came out the day. Volante. He's reading it. Thanks for coming out. Spend the time, John communications. Final word on the communications world. What's the message to folks out there? See, M O's out there and head of communications. What's the future look like for them? What should they do? Going forward to be successful? >> Well, the future of marketing is is really figuring out how to make word of mouth, you know, explode word of mouth, because that's why people buy things. You know, you told me I should check out this product or my book. He said, You told your friends I should check out the books, So he does. So it's all about word of mouth and starts with building a big digital footprint yourself and then going to the peak to the press side. >> Andy cutting him here in Palo Alto Studios. I'm John for with Keep conversations. Thanks for watching

live from San Juan Puerto Rico the cube covering blockchain unbound brought to you by blockchain industries hey welcome back everyone live here at the cube in Puerto Rico for our extended coverage exclusive coverage two days wall-to-wall I'm John for the coast the cube co-founder Silk'n angle Media Inc we're here at Alber geo founder of digital bits I owe two days our racket here in Puerto Rico Puerto Rico great to see you thanks for having me guys keep alumnae you're like you know my wingman on the crypto yeah we both were at poly Connie - you're the only cube alumni their first show in crypto as we start our tour now we have a mask probably like 40 interviews so now have 40 new cube alumni but a great community growing a new level of interesting dynamics I want to get your reaction to in any wave there's always a start entrepreneurs making things happen then the promoters the promoters and the entrepreneurs cheerlead each other they cheer lead but it gets up to the point where there's a lot of growth and then the next levels a new set of stakeholders investors global players new stakeholders governments are it's happening now for me this is the moment I starting to see the ecosystem going to that next level blockchain unbound the event we're here at Puerto Rico is a combination of developer conference industry conference investor conference economic world forum rolled into one so it's kind of a unique thing you've been doing a lot of presentations your sponsor here even though your startup a lot of conversations do you agree with that your thoughts your reaction yeah there's definitely the topics or the presentations both yesterday and today have covered all those areas that you discussed with in addition to die would say there's a focus on Puerto Rico itself I mean this particular event that we chose to sponsor which like to point out that everyone is promoting our logo simply by wearing the lanyard for the event but you promise not even out yet no we actually we had an announcement this week so we issued a press release basically articulating for everyone to understand the vision for our blockchain and also announcing that it's going to be launched on Monday so we're really excited about that the team's been working really hard over the past you know number of months working away and we have more exciting news that obviously would be coming up very shortly in terms of what we've done and so forth but our actual blockchain network is going live on Monday I know slaughter is also a sponsor they had a hot deal you've a hot deal your Protestant alia is coming out on Monday you have an announcement what is the product the digital bits it's an open-source project yeah so what's it going to end blockchain infrastructure protocol so I'm watching you know network that we've launches but anybody can tokenize on this blockchain however the specific vision for our project is to support the loyalty rewards industry we see a huge 1/3 of points every year that I guess you go unredeemed the in the United States alone is over 100 billion dollars and perceived value points sitting on the balance sheets of these issuers from retailers airlines so on and so forth it's a huge liquidity issue that number grows every year and so that's what that's one dot o and blockchain has the opportunity to bring loyalty rewards obviously many other things into to dot o and change that game of them and eliminate tremendous amount of friction and challenges that traditionally been experienced by consumers businesses and so forth in the space and so on our blockchain businesses whether it's their existing loyalty program or new loyalty Ramkin tokenize that program on our blockchain and you know so we're not ourselves operating loyalty program but we are very much supporting that industry and in addition to that these various points that are tokenized on our blockchain can be you know consumers could trade points say four points be and so on that's awesome also al you've been also active in the community here in Puerto Rico I've noticed that you've been involved in a lot of activities here on site Puerto Rico since the hurricane sideways big problems aid now getting back on its feet of this community has been doing a lot of stuff you've been very answering that what's going on explain to the people what is the vibe in Puerto Rico is it is it rebounding is it rebound is on the rebounding coming back the role of check the attacks breaks there's a lot of things going on here and there's a number of events obviously this week and going into early next week under this theme called restart week you know from what we've all learned is that there's still a lot of parts of the cylon without power and so forth what's really great I think about this event among other things is that all the proceeds from this event it's a non-profit so go to the people of Puerto Rico and beyond that there is a community here whether it's you know early in the morning for the course of the day and so forth they can you know arrange initiatives and what-have-you to you know do things here to help give back and there's a not I don't think it's just isolated this week has obviously been a lot of news in terms of things that have been happening leading up to to now and and things happening in the future blockchain you and the botching community put the current securities and so forth are really focused on wanting to help you know this island and I think it's a wonderful Island I mean it's you know it's my first visit here but I you know it's it's not it's not hard to fall in love with Barbara Cuba's landed here for two days we're wrapping up two days of coverage what's your observation in the hallways I hear a lot of things happening I heard one VC our investor not VC but now a token investor seven deals mo use a lot of smart people here so the block tower guy earlier I see all the legacy whales are here so the entrepreneurs are here a lot money flowing around there you know so there's obviously a lot of news in terms of how regulation is evolving some jurisdictions faster than others in terms of the introduction of clarity and what-have-you but that clearly doesn't appear to be flopping the enthusiasm in blockchain I mean and it's just further validation in terms of how powerful this technology really is and and you know we'll continue to find its way into into society and so forth I you know well I think it's people have faith that you know in some of these jurisdictions that aren't necessarily moving as quickly that they'll get there and and so you know as a result of that people just continue to stay in the game because it's great to be early so I got to ask you about the just overall activities on-site off-site cowan agendas around the corner tomorrow yes response to there as well by the way well you're flush with cash why sponsor I'm just curious um so because you're a start-up you don't have a product that's right but you pray to the company yes yeah and so we were getting our brand out there now we're coming out of stealth mode this is the first event that we chose to sponsor when agent obviously being the second and so very important we want to let consumer as businesses you know the community know what what we're doing with watching and you know we have and again the course of the next few weeks additional announcements will be making in terms of great people that are involved great partners and so course we're really excited to get that up and the utter in the open and at the end of the day when you build a product marketing is important alright and so this is a great community to support proceeds are going to the this particular event foresees go to a great cause and a lot of great people here so you know among the people on the planet that we would love to have know what we were up to and so that's why we made the decision so as you're doing an IC oh we're not doing an IC engine yeah okay what what are you doing so we have a lot of interest obviously in our project and you know we basically are taking alternative compliant approach to to this and we'll be announcing that obviously at some point in the future but when I said the legal practice no one in practice that one I'll try to knock you off your game go back and rephrase the question so how are you financing this so the great thing is that we've done nothing crypto in terms of creating you know having capital to build this so meeting your own capital yeah we had our own capital so digital bits was born in a company called fuse chamber so a few chain races traditional equity to go do what it wanted to do and among those things was to give birth to this open source project called digit the digital bits project and so you know we didn't need to prematurely create a token just for the sake of having a funding event so we would have capital to build this we did not need to do anything crypto related to be able to have capital to build a blockchain now you are doing crypto related so the show what what's happening with us is that again the network goes live on Monday will be clearly distributing for the market the utility and you know organically you'll see use of what we've done and obviously during stealth mode we evangelize with key partners and prospective partners which gonna be on that your launch who's gonna be using your chain so it will be obviously businesses that are looking to tokenize but in addition you have names we have names what you know unfortunately I can't say the art this time I get announced my money we will be announcing in the future yeah so not on Monday okay I'm Monday we we've Monday on the launch will announce who are amongst the new additions to the team as well on Monday I've been following the launch will will now so who some of the partners are as well well rumor has it you got a hot deal I can tell by your body language you try not to reveal it what's been the reaction for this project it's been phenomenal I mean it's you know obviously as an entrepreneur to to see a vision become a reality and for others share to share that enthusiasm is is is you know it's humbling and so but you know we're very focused we know it's still you know it's a saying that I like you know you know you know with in early in the early days it's not necessarily the time to you know crack open the champagne you still have to demonstrate product market fit you have to help build a market in our particular case so there's a lot of hard work launch it's a start line it's just like it's only a step along the whole process so a lot more steps ahead but we're very focused we know we believe we know what we need to do and it's gonna be a phenomenal year for us all right what's coolest thing you heard this week and the weirdest thing you heard this week no coming no calm that was the weirdest thing you heard okay we know some weird things going on ow cube alumni wingman on the crypto for the cube great to see you good to have you back on thank you very much good stuff Alberto entrepreneur founder of digital bits yo I'm John furry - cube more coverage here in Puerto Rico blockchain unbound after the short break

from Austin Texas it's the cube covering cube con and cloud native con 2017 brought to you by Red Hat the Lenox foundations and the cubes ecosystem partners well everyone welcome back to our exclusive coverage from the cube here in Austin Texas we're live on the floor at cloud native con and cube con cubic on like kubernetes gone not the cube con us but cute con we're Michele norelli who's the senior software engineer at Microsoft also the co-chair with Kelsey Heights our great event record-setting attendance I'm John ferry your host with stew minimun Michele welcome to the cube thank you so much for having me so people don't know about if they might have watch the street if you had a stream you're on stage keynoting and managing the whole program here congratulations more attendees here at this event than all the other cube cause of cloud native combined shows the growth and interest in a new way to develop new way to engage with other developers and create value yeah kubernetes has been the heart of it explain cloud native con and cube con what's the difference because I love cloud native but what's this Cooper Denny's thing I love that too yeah was it related a intertwine Wayne take him into his plane there's a there's a really big kubernetes audience and community and they need time to engage and just like work with each other and learn from each other and that's where coop Connie came from soku-kun with the original conference and the first one was a November in Seattle in 2016 and I was actually at that wine was a few hundred people and it was just so small people were actually asking like what is a pod what is kubernetes which are fine questions asked today as well but it was everyone was asking this question nobody was past that point and then you know kubernetes was donated to the CNCs and there were also these other cloud native projects that came about in the space and so we wanted a conference that encompasses both all of the cloud native projects as well as serbs the kubernetes community as well so that's where both of them came from some of the other cloud native projects have their own conferences like Prometheus has prom time and that's been growing as well I think the last one was 200 people up from 70 the last so I gotta ask you because we even cover us we were there at the cube con I was actually having drinks with Luke Tucker at JJ we're like hey we should do this Cuban Eddie's thing and bolted onto the Linux Foundation so you're president creates with the whole team it's been fun to watch Wow yeah but it's the tale of two stories in the community in the industry companies that got funded and we're building open-source and our participants who are building projects out and then a new onboarding of new developers coming into the community a lot of first-timers here you're seeing a visibility into the success of cloud yeah and they're Rieger engaged so you got a lot of folks who have invested into the community and new entrants a migration into the community yeah what does that dynamic mean to the CN CF how is that impacting how you structure in the programming and what are some of the insiders talking about what it is what's the reality yeah I think a lot of it has to do with you know this is a really positive community and there are just like so many people working together and collaborating not just because they I mean it looks like nice to be in a positive community right but you kind of have to like these problems are really hard and it's good to learn from different organizations that have like come across these projects or problems starting in the in the space before and they'll come and collaborate I think some of the things that we've been talking about inside the community is how to actually how to onboard people so the kubernetes community is starting up a new mentorship program to help people that are new to the community start learning how to review code and then PR code and and be productive members in the community and whatever they whatever area they want miss Michelle want to hear about kind of some of the breadth and depth of the community here yeah you know we went there's so many announcements there's a bunch of wando's yeah it's a brand new project I think what it was four projects a year ago and it's now 14 you know right how does somebody's supposed to get their arms around it should they be beat me about that you know where should somebody start you know what do you recommend yeah start with the that's a great question by the way I think that people should start with with a solution to a problem they already have so just know that people have run into these problems before and you should just go into the thing that you know about first and then if that leads you to a different problem and there's a solution that the CNCs you know has already come across then you can go into and dive into the other palms for example I am really interested in kubernetes and have been in that space but I think tracing is really interesting too and I want to start learning how to incorporate that into my workflow as well so show you you're also one of the diversity chairs yeah for the event you talk about kind of a diverse global nature of this community yeah we are spread across all time zone so I actually want to share an experience I have as a sake lead in kubernetes so at first I really wanted to serve all of the time zones and so we have these weekly sick meetings at 9:30 a.m. Pacific and I was like no maybe we should have like alternate meetings like alternate weekly meetings for other time zones but after talking to those the people in the other time sounds like they're very far off actually like China Asia Pacific I realize that they're actually more interested in reading notes and watching videos which is something I didn't actually know you know it's it's you think like oh you have to serve every community in the same way but what I've learned and face to face yeah base to base exactly and that's not actually how that's not how actually everybody wants to interact and so that's been an interesting thing I've learned from the diverse nature and this in the space let's see a challenges I mean we've been talking we're just that reinvent last week at Amazon obviously the number of services that they're rolling out is pretty strong there's a leader in the cloud but as multi cloud becomes the choice for most most enterprises and businesses the service requirements the baseline is got to be established seeing your community rolling out a lot of great new services but storage old storage is transferring to machine learning in AI and you got I Oh tea right around the corner new new kinds of applications yeah okay it's changing the game on the old card storage and security obviously two important areas you got to store the data data is that the card of the value proposition and then security security how are you guys dealing with that those challenges those political grounds that people are have a lot of making a lot of money in an old storage you mean ship a storage drive and here's an architecture those are being disrupted yeah I think they I mean they'll continue to be disrupted I think people are just going to bring in new and new more new and new use cases and then people will come and meet them meet those customers where they are and people just have to change I guess get used to it yeah shifter die yeah I think that some that that we are getting to that point but I can't only time will tell we'll see what are something exciting things that you see from the new developers I just recognize some friends here that I've haven't that dark wondering the community are new and they're kind of like licking their chops like wow what an excitement I could feel value and I could have a distribution I got a community and I can make money and then Dan said you know project products profits you put the product profit motive right on the table but he's clear at the same not pay to play it's okay to have profits if you have a good product for me project I buy that but the new developers like that because as an end scoreboard what are you guys doing with that new community what survived there around those kinds of opportunities you guys creating any programs for them or yeah I think just to just they can get involved you know I think knowledge is power perspective is power also so being involved helps give you a perspective to see where those gaps are and then come up with those services that are profitable or those tools that are profitable and I think this space can be very lucrative based on the number of people he sponsors I think he said he said the show was wondering if you can comment when you're building the schedule how do you balance you know all those platinum sponsors versus you know some of the you know practitioner companies that are also getting involved how do you there are there are different levels of sponsorship right like you mentioned the events team has a sponsorship section or sponsorship team and they handle most of placing sponsors and all of that and so they'll get whatever level they want but actually Kelsey and I do a lot of research and see like what's happening in the community what's interesting what's new and and we'll find time to highlight that as well which one is research what's your role in Microsoft share with the audience what are you working on what's your day-to-day job is it just foundation work are you doing coding what do you coding what's your fav is the VI MX what do you prefer yes my work is 30% community and 70% engineering I really love engineering but I also really love the community and just getting these opportunities to give back you know build skills as well learning how to speak in front of people as well these are both valuable skills to learn and it gives me an opportunity to just give back what I've learned so I appreciate those but I mostly work on developer tools that are open source that help people use containers and kubernetes a little more easily so I work on projects like Helms drafts and Brigade and these are just like things that we've seen the pain points that we've experienced and we want to kind of share our solutions with them so draft is the one I've been working on a lot have you heard of drops okay let me do the two second draft is a tool for application developers to build containerized apps without really understanding or having to understand all of what is kubernetes and containers so that's my favorite space to know you know one of the things we look at coming in here is there's that balance between there's complexity but there's flexibility you know I've heard Kelsey talking about our on when I talk to customer they're like oh I love kubernetes because I take vault and I take envoy and I take all these different things that put together and it does what I want but a lot of people are daunted and they say oh I want to I want to just go to Microsoft Azure and they'll take care of that so how do you look at that and what is the balance that we should be looking for as an industry yeah we've been emphasizing in the community a lot on plug ability across contracts it's like a theme that I think almost every project hurts and a word that you'll hear a lot I'm sure you already have heard a lot and I think that's because you can't meet everyone's needs so you build this modular component that does one thing very well and then you learn how to extend it and or you give people the ability to extend it and so that's really great for scaling a project I I do really appreciate the clouds coming out all of them with their own managed services because it's hard to operate and understand all of these things it's it takes a lot of depth in knowledge context and just prior experience and so I think that'll just make it a lot easier for people to onboard onto these technologies I was going to ask you I was going to ask so you brought up fug ability we saw you know Netflix on stage was his phenomenal of the culture yeah dynamic I think that the Schumer important conversation you know something we've been talking about silage is a real part of what we're seeing tech being a part of but the the things that popped out at me in the keynote were service mesh and pluggable architecture so I want to get your thoughts for the folks that aren't there is that in the trenches and inside the ropes what is a pluggable architecture and what is a service mesh these days because you got lyft and uber and all these great companies who have built hyper scale and large-scale systems in open source and now our big tech success stories donating these kinds of approaches pluggable architectures and service man talk a minute to explain so pluggable architectures this is why you have one layer of your stuff there's a piece of software that does something does one thing very well but you know every I like to say that every company is a snowflake and that's okay and so you may have some workflow or need that is specific to your company and so we shouldn't limit you to just what we think is the right solution to a problem we should allow you to extend or extend these pieces of software with modular components or just extensible components that that work for you does that make a little more sense yeah I work on helm and we also have a pluggable architecture because we were just getting so many requests from the community and it didn't make sense to put everything in the core code based if we did if we accepted one thing it would really just interrupt somebody else's workflow so that that's helped us a lot in in my personal experience I really like plug water it's actually that means you can go build a really kick butt app yeah nail it down to your specifications but decoupler from a core or avoiding kind the old spaghetti code mindset but kind of creating a model where it can be leveraged yeah plugin we all know plugins are but right so so that someone else could take advantage of it exactly yeah a service mesh that's evolved yeah heard a lot of that what is that yeah it's um so developers this is actually the lift story is really interesting to me so at lyft developers were really uneasy about moving from the monolith to the micro-services architecture just because they didn't early understand the network component and we're like network reliability would not be so reliable would fail and time service meshes have allowed engineers at lyft to understand where their failures happen and in terms like of a network standpoint and so you're basically abstracting with network layer and allowing more transparency into it this is like very useful for when you have lots of Micra services and you want this kind of reliability and stability awesome so one point 9s coming Spence support Windows that's what key and now a congratulations just go to the next level I mean growth talk about the growth because it's fun for us to watch you know kind of a small group core young community less than three years old really to kubernetes kind of had some traction but it really is going to be commoditized and that's not a bad thing so how do you what's your take on this what's the vibe what's that what's the current feeling inside the community right now excited pinching ourselves no I think everybody's in awe everybody is in awe and we're just like we want to make this the best experience possible in terms of an open source experience you know we want to welcome people to the community we want to serve the people's needs and we just we just want to do a good job because this is really fun and I think the people working on these problems are having a lot of fun with with seeing this kind of growth and support it's been great certainly for US president creation president and creation of this whole movement it's been fun to watch a document final question what should people expect this week what is the show going to hopefully do what's your prediction what's your purpose here what should people expect this week and the folks that didn't make it what do they miss okay there are so many things happening it's insane you're going to get a little bit of everything there's lots of different tracks lots of diverse content I think I'm when I go to conferences in my personal experience I really love technical salons those are really great because you can get your hands dirty and you can get questions answered by the people who created the project that's an experience that is is really powerful for me I went to the first open tracing salon and that's where I kind of got my hands dirty with tracing and been siegelman who's doing the keynote today this afternoon was the person who was teaching me how to like do this stuff so yeah it was awesome like some marketing fluff no it's not and it's just like it's it's real experienced very expert like experts you know in the in the space teaching you these things so that that definitely can't be replicated I think the cig sessions will be really cool there's a big focus on not just learning stuff but also collaborating and and just talking about things before they get documented so that's a really good experience here it's an action-packed schedule I tweeted that it feels like I'm you know when Burning Man had like a hundred people announced this big thing I think this is the beginning of a amazing industry people are cool they're helpful they're getting you're getting involved answering questions open-book here yeah at cloud native Punk you've got thanks Michele Farrelly been coming on co-chair senior engineer at Microsoft great to have her on the cube great keynote great color great fun exciting times here at cloud native con I'm John furry the founders look at angle media with too many men my co-hosts more live coverage after the short break

from the noise it's the cube covering vmworld 2015 brought to you by VM world and its ecosystem sponsors now your host Stu minimun and Brian Grace Lee Patrick Shanna's on for a member of the technical staff for dr. Patrick saw you at the end of our spring tour and now you're here at the you know picking up the fall tour so thank you for joining us again hey thanks for having me alright so I mean last year you know containers with VMware I mean was a big discussion we kind of all had that you've got some background with Microsoft right and VMware yeah and VMware so you know there was kind of a joke of you know oh the old Microsoft you know extend embrace and we'll see how we go from there but you know it's been a year later so can you give us a little bit of the update of kind of you know how docker in VMware how do you guys see each other I could evm where is a great partner you so the announcement this morning VMware embrace containers so I'm super excited to be here some of the announcements that were made this morning is now this year is a control plane for containers there's this notion of native containers in this year one of the things that excites me the most is their project bonville that they talked about this morning it's actually been made by one of my friends on the ex-colleagues banchory and what they're doing in there that they are implemented the back end for the darker engine in terms of these fear primitives so when you're creating images it creates a set of vmdk layers and when you're creating when you want to create a container the isolation primitives are the ones of VMS as opposed to linux containers all right so that's a very good way of running container yes sir patrick last time we're in the cube you did a great job of helping us you know kind of walk the stack I don't know if you saw we actually did a research piece kind of layering the whole stack so here the announcement you mentioned this morning is the vSphere integrated containers and they've got photon and they've got Bonneville on and let me ask you am I looking at this right that we're VMware I mean VMware very much down at the infrastructure level yeah so when they build that photon layer you know whether they call it just enough virtualization as Kate kolbert said this morning when I heard him speak um but dr. sits on top of that am I getting that right yeah it's exactly right and actually one of my reasons for joining VMware I think four years ago was for them to go up stack and at that time it was with cloud foundry and I would argue that maybe with cloud foundry we were a little bit too much up stack compared to my vm worries at the bottom when I present the whole stack usually I talk about like the new hardware the new hardware today is your cloud provider it's a Amazon Microsoft Google and then the virtualization with VMware so that's the new hardware and that's where vmware is very strong so they manage networking storage and compute on top of that you have the OS layer and what really got me interested into moving to darker is that the whole landscape just changed when containers appear two years ago and the whole industry is reorganizing around that so what happened at the OS layer that all the OS providers starting with chorus initially who studied that friend started doing minimal release of their OS that are just designed to run containers so coral I started that trend but then very quickly read had followed with project atomic and then we went to with winter core the most interesting to me is Ranchero s where they run docker for everything so they have two darker system darker and userland occur and then VMware came out with photon I think twas last June or something like that and today I think they have a preview to of that coming out on top of that you have ducker so the rocker engine running and on top of the darker engine you have orchestration platforms and these are the ones that are replacing what used to be past platform as a service and when I was at Google I was doing google appengine at vmware i was doing cloud foundry now you see cloud foundry reinventing itself as a control plane for containers and so one of the announcement that excited me most in the keynote this morning is that now Cloud Foundry is running with photon they have an integrated distribution so finally vmware is going up stack with its own stack like vSphere at the bottom then on top of that you have photon and then on top of that you have cloud foundry yeah so really exciting times yeah I think for me one of the things that I always hear that feels like it's confusing or off the markets a lot of people want to kind of get into this containers replaces VMs or VMs versus container debate and as if they're both sort of infrastructure layer which if you think about them is something that holds that I could see you make the mistake but but Dockers is something that developers love they love to package their applications they love this idea of right on my laptop push it somewhere do you find that confusion a lot in the marketplace I mean oh yeah I find that a lot and I think it's tied to the rise of DevOps it really in the past five years the this new movement called DevOps like really took off and DevOps is a lot about people and processes a little bit about products as well and I think when docker appeared it was the right level of abstraction for DevOps to happen like the right packaging construct where developers can put all their dependencies in a container and then ups have all the right knobs to tweak for putting that in production but it's the same thing that you put in production that you have on your developer machine so to me a lot of the confusion assoc d2 docker is tied to that because it's a technology that you use both by developers and by ops I think vmware is doing a really good job of giving up so kind of control they need to put darker in production yeah so we're here at vmworld a lot of talk about vmware in containers you guys doing a ton of stuff with Microsoft like yeah talk a little bit about because you know for a long time people like to say what containers have been along for on for a long time Linux containers and but but windows and microsoft adopting this like what's going on there yeah so the partnership with Microsoft is super exciting so after a VMware I actually moved to Microsoft and at Microsoft my role was to help all the darker partners to get onto Azure and since I join I've seen all the work that happened with microsoft recently we've done tons of stuff we end many many different integration points to me the most important one is finally we have native windows containers that shipped with a Windows Server tv3 like literally I think two weeks ago so that's something that was pre announced that dark on and my croissan'wich came onstage with the ducati sure to do a demo now you can run it on Azure yourself what's exciting there is that the concepts that are at the heart of docker are based on using c groups and name spaces which are linux kernel features for isolation of your workloads the thing is these isolation primitive similar ones existed in windows server and especially the version of Windows Server that was running within Microsoft data center for to power Bing and things like that to have denser workloads in the data center where the Microsoft team has done is that they re implemented the darker back end in terms of windows containers primitives and so now you can create Windows net application running on windows server in windows native containers the beauty of it if you're a developer especially an enterprise developer in the enterprise basically you have half and half Java and.net very often like developers go from one to the other or they are developers who do Java others doing dotnet they have completely different tool chains now with darker they have a single tool chain that they can use to build a multi container application that use different technologies behind the scene so finally developers can use the best tools for the father father job yep so pattern one of the things we look at every year here at vmworld is how are we doing it kind of fixing the things that broke when virtualization went into both storage and networking yeah and it was big discussion point at dr. Khan this year you put up a beta of docker networking yep storage I'd say is even a little bit you know further behind there so you know what's the latest on how you guys think of that you know where are we along that maturity curve of you know storage and networking for for containers so I'm really glad you asked that because when i joined occur in march that was my first project to kick-start a project to do darker extensibility and the two extension points that we created based on ecosystem and customer demands were about storage and networking and so I'd acha kaun in June we announced to extension points for dr. a plug-in system one for networking and one for volumes and what I really love about what happened at vmworld today this morning in the keynote is that VMware implemented a networking plug-in based on NSX as well as a volume plug inning in collaboration with a cluster HQ who had built flutter and help us create that extension point four volumes so finally one of the big issues with containers is that when you were deploying it in a multi host set up especially with swarm and compose when you're stunning to the orchestration before June there was no way to to move one container when state full container with data to another machine with a volume plug-in now you can do that and with the networking aspect now you can refer to containers by instead of like doing links and there were some complicated ways to do that now you can use either the native networking driver that comes with ducker but as usual we use the philosophy of batteries included but replaceable and so you can plug networking plug-in coming from nsx if you're using this fear under the hood yeah so still we're we're going to be doing a panel tomorrow on on containers one of the things I want to dig into we're gonna have intel on the show and tells doing some neat things where they're they're calling it clear containers but in essence it's it's kind of the equivalent for the vm we're proud of you know VT technology right hardware isolation of processes talk about just what's the potential of that for containers ability to better leverage hardware to make containers a it's faster and yeah so that aspect of internal research is super exciting and it corroborates some of the things i see happening in the marketplace right now especially on the research side where you have both like Linux containers became super successful in the past two years now that we're going in production there will be lots of different type of isolation technologies applied to containers and so one of the first one I heard about West project banville where it's implemented in terms of this year primitives another one is the clear container by Intel another one that I heard about that that came through the oci project that will talk about that new standard that we announced a cocoon is called is called things of run V and it's based on the hyper SH container technology based on virtualization so I see more and more people using virtualization as an implementation for isolation in containers yeah talk about what's going on with run see so you know six months ago it was we had this you know are we gonna have diverging container standards you guys stood up with core OS and 20 other companies and said we're no we're going to have one standard what's going on with with oci and run c and that thing that's been super exciting so that was my second project that docker we announced it at Daka Connie you that we had a 20 of the biggest companies in the industry joining to create a standard container especially core OS joining as well as Google and Amazon and everybody and what blew my mind is that we're what were free month later less than three months later the team right now is preparing a first draft of the spec for September they've been working actively all throughout the summer we put out we started working on the spec just after dark on we had the darker contributor summit and the the working group for OC I was the largest we had like 15 people from different companies starting to iterate on the spec they continued throughout the summer and now we have something that's close to a first draft of the spec with a reference implementation that's runs in one of the most interesting development that happens there and that really speaks to the power of open source and open stone is is that once the specs started to mature we started to have already a second reference a second implementation of the spec that's called rungy that's been built by the hyper SH project based on virtualization and then why way contributed a test suite for compliance of the of the spec so that spec is advancing really fast yeah so I was having a conversation with Jim's emmalin who runs the Linux Foundation II week or so ago at linux con and we asked him we said you know it's hard because you love them all like your kids do you have a favorite project he said yeah no question oci is my favorite project right now just because of the promise of portability the sort of write once run anywhere so you're working on it it's an important product the Linux domain is really looking at you guys to make this work and and drive that portability yeah and the Linux Foundation has done a really great job at coordinating the work of all the maintainer Xin there it's really a neutral ground where we can advance so that all of us can innovate on top of it now a lot of the competition is happening at the upper layer of the stack like oci I think we all agree on the semantics of what a container runtime should be now at the higher level there are lots of discussions about how the orchestration should be done and there you have 15 different projects you have swarmed from darker this mess those this coup banaras which is very opinionated and one of the other development this summer is that Google and many others including us dr. with part of that announced an another foundation called the CNC F the cloud native computing foundation where the goal there is to create reference tax for orchestration that can interoperate together pretty much along the same line of the work that darker did with a mesosphere for having a swarm plugin for mezclas so Patrick boy there's been so much movement in this space we talked multiple foundations a lot going on one of the things we came out of dr. Khan that we were just I guess a little concerned about is how many people actually run an import and we know you know I mean live through the the VMware lived through the Linux you know adoption phases so is it fair to kind of gauge that piece of it you know what do you see when you know you're talking to the practitioners and the you pick users out there as to you know how should we be measuring you know that's a naturally occurring production yeah so I would say it's maturing a lot we see more and more users putting darker in production there are lots of holes still in the offering that needs to be filled and that's why I'm pretty excited to see VMware stepping in and saying hey for production use we have a lot of technology that you can use to put that in production some of the things that we've seen is a like networking and volumes so that was really needed now that there are lots of plugins I hope that people will have an easier time putting that into production the agreement on what orchestration should be so people are still asking a lot of question about which orchestrator should i use for my containers in production and so I've seen so people using measures others using coronary some are trying swarm there's still lots of questions out there about what the right stack should look like and I would say as usual in software project it kind of depends on what you're running well the one thing that concerns me and it's always there's so many good things going on around docker I've been doing some research over the last couple of months looking at all the different platforms so everything from you know dr. native to what hoshi corp is doing to what openshift is doing and we were we talkin to Adrian Cockroft he said you know dockers reached sort of plaid in terms of speed it moves so fast you guys are releasing some every two months how do you deal with that because you deal with the ecosystem how do they deal with the fact that you're now part of their core platform but you're releasing new stuff every two months I mean are we going to get into something where it's like well it's it's one dot six and two dot one and how do you deal with that yeah so ducker itself as a company is maturing addict Akane you one of the big things that we announced is a darker trusted registry and aqus yes so we have a version of docker that is supported where we're going to do backwards a porting of patches so for people who really want to run it in production we have an offering that supported for them so that they are not obliged to run on the tape every time some of the startups that I've seen out there like large startups with a more in the consumer space who have larger data center and a pretty mature ops team they some of them are running on tip or on the latest version of darker but in the enterprise you can assume that like the adoption of new versions will be slower and so we have that like support offering for for all the versions of darker now the darker open source project is continuing to fire I like to create lots of things and there are lots of poor request the project is more successful than ever I think in the last like recently the most prolific contributor was Microsoft in the project there are lots of torrid has a huge contributor that Google as well is sending lots of pull requests so there are not lots of new features coming with each new release but at the same time we're really working on a platform that everybody is going to use and that needs to mature that's why you have that really fast pace of innovation in that space yeah so I mean Patrick here you're you're in the weeds of some of this so the other one that comes up quite a bit of courses security so even just this last week there's a big back and forth on Twitter and a couple of blog posts talking about it you know what what your thought is to how how we should talk about kind of the maturity and where we're going with the container security discussion yeah so as you guess container security is one of our big focus abductor because that's one of the things that people are expecting from a platform especially to run in production my colleague yoga Monica did lots of blog posts recently about how to improve your security in production security is not only a factor of the software itself but on the all the processes that you put in place around it and basically around darker you have to put in place with some kind of processes you have for operating systems like getting the latest release of the official images I don't know if you saw that there's been a blog post like talking where they looked randomly at all the images in docker hub and evaluating them for security issues one of the things that they didn't look at is that the latest releases of operating systems that we have in there in blocker images are just tracking the upstream releases and people who have sound security practices internally I'll just pulling these latest releases all right last question I have for you Patrick it's it easy for people to come I come in here and be like oh well you know biggest threat to vmware is is docker what what I love talking to you is you know this is a real small community I over the last year a lot of former VMware people now working over a doctor and not that they're unhappy with VMware and you know Microsoft is is in the mix you know so I mean this whole community is pulling together and doing a lot of work a lot of contribution you know what do you see out there from the technology community to help mature this whole space yeah I'd say both VMware and Microsoft at the operating system an infrastructure level as well as Google at the orchestration layer VMware a red hat at the operating system layer like everybody is trying to make darker a sound platform to run in production so what I see in all corners is just darker getting solidified and getting part of most people's production infrastructure with all these efforts on the security and stability and processes as well as the development processes there are lots of innovation in the terms of CI CD integration with darker no no she saw the work that cloudbees has been doing for integrating jenkins with darker so doctor is both the platform for apps and for devs and in that in that qualification that the ecosystem is very broad both on the dev tools side as well as on the ops and platform side all right well Patrick unfortunately at a time is always great chatting with you thank you so much for joining us we'll be back with lots more coverage here from being real 2015 and thank you for watching you inseam six months you