>>The Cube Presents Dell Technologies World Brought to You by Dell. >>Hey, everyone, welcome back to the Cubes Coverage of Dell Technologies World 2022. Live from the Venetian in Las Vegas. Lisa Martin With a Volonte. This is Day two of the Cubes coverage. We've had a lot of great focus on talking about multi cloud partner ecosystems, as et cetera, the last day and a half. Now we're going to have a conversation with Dell, and we've got two guests joining us. Please welcome David Linthicum, the chief cloud strategy officer at Deloitte, and Brad Lewis, the senior vice president and GM of the global transformation office at Dell Technologies. Guys, welcome to the Cube. >>Thank you for having us. You guys >>so lots to talk about multi cloud. You can't. It's one of the biggest themes here, David. I want to start with you. One of the things that Michael Dell said in his keynote, and he said it on the Cape today is its multi cloud world by default. What does that mean to you? >>What that means is that if you don't find multi cloud, multi cloud is going to find you. It's a complex distributed system that basically is invasive to what we do within the enterprise. So anybody who's leveraging cloud computing is going to find that there is a need to leverage multiple clouds of multiple kinds of technologies. And therefore we're kind of focused on what's in between the clouds versus the clouds themselves. And I think that's okay. We're leveraging multi cloud by choice. It's driving innovation. It's driving agility. That's why people are adopting it. So whether or not you have it or not within your enterprise chances are you do. Are you going to have it pretty soon, >>right? I think stand I saw yesterday was 75% of organisations have at least 3 to 4 different clouds. What is your take on when you're talking with customers in the field? How are they? How are they managing that approach? What are they doing right? What do they Maybe not doing right. >>I think what they're doing wrong mainly was hit. That one first is that they're managing their clouds within the silos. And so, in other words, are using whatever native tools are in the particular cloud provided to do operations do security, governance, things like that. And the reality is, it's a more holistic approach that needs to be taken. We need to span these solutions across the different cloud providers and also the existing legacy systems thinking holistically about that. It's just something we haven't done ever with an I t. And now we're having to do it. Read. >>What is the global transformation office? Adele, What's your What's your role in your mission? Sure. >>So our mission is working with our customers, who are really focused on driving outcome centric types of relationship with us, so worried less about the just in and of itself and really wanting to figure out how do I take advantage of all of those capabilities that Dell and its partner ecosystem have to drive business value? Ultimately, what does a great experience look like that or a developer for my lines of business? How do I start to improve the type of agility that I've got? How do I office stuff up some of the types of flexible platforms that I'm really reading about or aspiring to be able to offer? So being able to look at that holistic through through the lens of technology, the economics of that. The operational constructs and operating models around it and being able to really take all of those assets and capabilities and map them to the types of outcomes, milestones and timelines that are relevant to that. >>Who is your ideal partner at the customer? Is it uh, C I o the line of business? Somebody in infrastructure? >>It's all of the above, I think, as we get as we get through the conversation, what will become apparent is tech as part of the answer. So it's not. It's important. It has to be considered. It has to be architected. Well, it has to be operated well. But as important as taking an increasingly more so is how to David's point, how are you going to go and build that common model of operational construct around all of these different platforms so you don't end up with a silo based approach? Application owners and driving utilisation and adoption is important and more so than it's ever been. So having those line of business tie ins and the application owners all of those different stakeholders finance and being able to set expectations well and being able to deliver against those consistently and reliably and the impact that has on confidence and investment. All of those things become part of the fabric of a collective that's about mapping to those. So there's no one set of stakeholders that we work with. But what is really important as having somebody who sits across all of those things that has the ability to call the shots and make decisions when hard decisions are having to be made because where things don't typically work well is when we get into stalemates or standoffs, where there's different factional issues or politics comes into it or somebody is not empowered? Having that governance model so that there is a senior stakeholder who can move roadblocks and make sure that we remain aligned is one of the most critical factors. >>David question for you removing those roadblocks the last two years. Obviously, we've seen a lot of organisations massively pivot multiple times right to survive and not to thrive. But we've seen so much investment in the remote workforce and now a lot of businesses facing ageing infrastructure, what do we do? How do you help them remove those roadblocks? Obviously time is of the essence right. So from a competitive perspective, what more do some of those conversations look and sound like >>they're one? Get the obstacles out of the way. In other words, if you think this is about building more data centres to have more VPN, traffic and things like that, that's not what it's all about. This is about finding solutions that provide scalability within the organisation and it's going to maintain scalability. Keep in mind, we're running to work force. People are going to work independently. They're gonna exist on their own infrastructure. They're going to have their own data which is personalised to them. They're gonna basically interact with other employees and other co workers in different, more collaborative ways. Hopefully. So the idea being that we're trying to get everything back centralised again is crazy. We need to figure out ways in which we can diversify the workforce, diversify that kind of technology we're using and leverage things that are really kind of on demand and scalable quick thinking about building data centres. >>Okay, so square the circle for me because I totally agree with what you just said. But it seems like a lot of organisations when it comes to data are taking that approach like Okay, let's centralise all the data so we can make it more manageable and more efficient to manage. Yet we talk about edge. Data is distributed by its very nature. So help me understand that Yin and Yang. >>I think it's partially we get into, obviously, the governance and the data governance and sort of all of the regulator in compliance aspects of that part of it is also emerging technologies. It's the area that's probably the least mature. We spend a lot of time figuring around how to have operational toolsets around multi cloud. Then we figured about how to have applications traverse multi cloud. Now we're moving on to the real crux of the problem and especially as translate edge start to take hold. We're generating large volumes of data is being generated at the edge. It's being generated in the in the core, and that ability to look at things holistically is going to become increasingly important. It's an area of focus for obviously us at Dell Technologies. It's where we're investing heavily and from an R and D standpoint. It's where the marketplace is going to evolve. But it's still in an early stage of maturity and being able to look at that holistically, >>so not necessarily shove it all into a single data store but enable it to be distributed and managed and and governor who should own the data life cycle. Should it be somebody in the business? Should it be somebody in I t. Should it be a data >>group? >>It's >>now. There is a long How long have we got? Well, I mean, you must have these discussions. We absolutely do, but sort of being serious about it. I think the important point is the people who ultimately are the ones who are who are responsible for getting value from that data is where it should resign. So because of the people who have the greatest insight and understanding of how of how to really get value from it, because ultimately we want to pivot from having a data conversation to how do we generate information and actionable information? It's not a data problem in and of itself, it's it's This is a business intelligence. How do we get value from this and that the best place for the data to live is the people who are going to be able to make the most of that. So >>Deloitte's gonna be having these conversations all the time with your customers. But this is, uh, an organisational discussion, isn't it? >>It's also a functional discussion. You have to remember that there's two tiers there. There's the people who own the data tier but don't necessarily want to administer the data so they know what the data is, What it does, they control how it's changed. They control how it's monitored, and we have multiple people that are distributed all over the company that do that. And then there's the people that actually run the control plane, and we get to distribute a data we're having to get to a common control plane that goes across the various databases, which is able to make the changes to the metadata and changes to the technical geeky stuff we have to do to keep data running. And so it's okay to have that. It's okay to have non technical and technical users who still maintain ownership of the data, and they work together in kind of a devops situation to make sure that we're maintaining the data to the needs of the business, and we have the business owners in there to tell us what that is. And we have the data administrators and that would actually make the changes. >>So the technology is, uh, an implementation detail in that model. Um, that's not It's not the tail wagging the dog. It's subservient to the business. Essentially, >>they're working together. And the reality is that the people who have the technical know how and have the business now how are often city in two different organisations that can exist anymore. They need to be maintained. They need to remove the barriers. And I deal with this with my clients all the time. They can't sit in silos. They need to collaborate together to make sure that the systems and the data are going to reflect and to solve the needs of the business. The only way to do that is to have collaboration at that level. >>So Lisa referenced multi cloud by default. You know, Chuck Witton was talking about that on the Cube recently. Uh, so I have often said multi clouds, Really? Multi vendor. It's like, Oh, I woke up. I got all these clouds. Okay, So what are the right strategies for customers? Where are they starting? How are they thinking about it? >>The people who are making the best progress is looking at it holistically. Looking at what does what does God look like? What are the things that are important to us? One of the capabilities were wanting to offer up and going into going into things, worried less about the tech of it. But more about how are we going to do things like accelerate business agility? How are we going to start to empower our lines of business to have first mover advantage? How do we take advantage of all of these disparate capabilities that over time it's going to vary? Who has competitive advantage? You could have one provider comes up with something that's a really compelling use case for what you're looking to do. But so if you've got the ability to be able to consume as a consistent ecosystem, all of those different partners, it's very easy to tap into that quickly and effectively delivering it. If you're trying to build things so that you're only tied into different people in different ways with different operational constructs, that don't really talk very well together. It's going to become very difficult for you to really take the maximum advantage of multi Cloud. So the thing that I would stress is, what are you actually trying to accomplish out of that work from the top down? Think about what good looks like. What are the capabilities that are meaningful and impactful to the business. And then the easiest thing in the world is to figure out which technology choices you have that enable that. But it has to be done through that lens of what is business value look like? And how do we manage that? And maximise that versus making desperate sort of distinct technology choices >>with the focus on business scene, which is absolutely critical. David, What's the GTM like between Dell and Deloitte? How do you when you bring them in? It's >>a perfect relationship. You've got to remember the customers and our clients have to have two things. Number one. They have to have a trusted adviser, and someone can bring to bear risk. Financial financial analysis, the ability to deal with technology, data, security, governance, things like that which are hard problems to solve. But do so in an objective way, making sure we're bringing the right solutions to bear to solve the problems looking after for the client as well as a technology partner that has the breath of everything you see on this floor that we can pick and choose different technologies to bring together to solve their exact needs. So having a partner like Dell is very important because ultimately allows us to pick the right solutions for the customer and bring to bear the exact solutions are going to solve their issues and do so in a way where they're going to be 100% optimised, where the solution that they're running is going to be near 100% optimisation as much as we can, and therefore that's going to value the business. Do you tend >>to these days, uh, to come into an organisation on a more sort of project basis? Or is it more things like we're talking digital transformation or data architecture? And then you figure out okay, where's the priorities? And the spending have to be is a kind of a top down or is it bottom up or a middle out? >>It tends to be a little bit of well, ultimately it ends up being both. So whether the conversation starts at a macro level and it's a more existential, how do we? How do we want to go to market and how do we want to support our business? A lot of conversations start that way. Sometimes it'll be bottom up where it is a specific project. We've got a net new application. We've got to go to market initiative, a new geography, whatever it happens to be. That is sort of what spawns that type of a dialogue. But ultimately, those two things do end up balancing out. Because if you do anything well and the expectation is that we're going to do things well, then it will grow. Or alternatively, if the aspiration is is that you want to do things in the best way possible, it will attract and pull through use cases and projects as and where required anyway. So the two things end up becoming pretty symbiotic, irrespective of whether it started as a top down. Michael meets a customer and sort of starts that way, or it's something from the grassroots up that it's more demand based from a project. >>When you have edged discussions with customers, how much of that is? You know, maybe it's the OT people or the folks out at the edge, and how much is I t involved in those discussions? >>It tends to be so. It's becoming more mainstream that it's a more holistic conversation, so a little bit is always the case. Some of the early conversations tend to be about use cases that are very business century so that you will have conversations with somebody who imagine somebody doing payments of distributed payments in financial services or something like that. And it's all about mobile banking and proximity and things. So you tend to talk to people about well, what are the potential use cases? How do you monetise some of those things? And then you talk to end up in a technology conversation or some could be potentially. Somebody says, Well, look, we've got the Capital Markets group want to do something, or the consumer banks want to go do something that's eccentric. How would we go about doing that from the organisation? We're now getting to a much greater degree of maturity with a lot of customers where it is a collaborative where you've got the person who owns the business problem or the business opportunity, plus the technology group. And it's a collaborative around. Well, what does the technology solution need to be able to offer up and deliver? And if we can do those things, how would we then go and leverage that technology and the most effective way to drive those types of business outcomes? We're talking about seeing >>a similar >>patterns. Yeah, I'm seeing very similar patterns. Ultimately, this is about tactical technology that has a strategic purpose. And you gotta remember we've had edge in one way, shape or form around for the last 30 years. We just haven't done it very well. And the thing is, we're starting to move a lot of these processes and a lot of these data collections, a lot of these analytics and a lot of knowledge engines, you know, out to the edge of the networks. And by doing so, that creates a strategic opportunity for folks in the organisations to figure out how that's going to work for them. And so it isn't necessarily a geeky conversation that we're having it strategically. We're looking to expand the way in which we're doing compute and doing data storage. It has these opportunities within the industry you're in. We're going to build this technology to make it happen. And that goes to both sides, people who do the implementation boards of directors and CEOs. But >>you can kick out if you have to, >>but they've all got to be there. And that collaboration seems like it's absolutely foundational to overall projects being successful. Guys, thank you so much for joining David me on the programme today. Talking about Dylan deployed better together and all the opportunities that there are to unlock the value and multi cloud. We appreciate your insights. >>Thanks for having us our >>pleasure. Thanks for our guests and a volonte. I'm Lisa Martin coming to you live from Las Vegas. Day two of our coverage of Dell Technologies World stick around. We'll be right back with our next guest. >>Thanks. >>Mm. Mhm. Mhm.

>>welcome to the session. Long live swarm with containers and kubernetes everywhere we have this increasing cloud complexity at the same time that we're facing economic uncertainty and, of course, to navigate this. For most companies, it's a matter of focusing on speed and on shipping and iterating their code faster. Now. For many, Marantz is customers. That means using docker swarm rather than kubernetes to handle container orchestration. We really believe that the best way to increase your speed to production is choice, simplicity and security. So we wanted to bring you a couple of experts to talk about the state of swarm and Docker enterprise and how you can make best use of both of you. So let's get to it. Well, good afternoon or good morning, depending on where you are on and welcome to today's session. Long live swarm. I am Nick Chase. I'm head of content here at Mantis and I would like to introduce you to our two Panelists today eight of Manzini. Why don't you introduce yourself? >>I am a van CNI. I'm a solutions architect here at Moran Tous on work primarily with Docker Enterprise System. I have a long history of working with support team. Um, at what used to be Ah Docker Enterprise, part of Docker Inc. >>Yeah, Okay. Great. And Don Power. >>I, um Yeah, I'm Don Power on the docker. Captain Docker, community leader. Right now I run our Dev Ops team for Citizens Bank out of Nashville, Tennessee, and happy to be here. >>All right, Excellent. So All right, so thank you both for coming. Now, before we say anything else, I want to go ahead and kind of name the elephant in the room. There's been a lot of talk about the >>future. Yeah, that's right. Um, swarm as it stands right now, um, we have, ah, very vested interest in keeping our customers on who want to continue using swarm, functional and keeping swarm a viable alternative or complement to kubernetes. However you see the orchestration war playing out as it were. >>Okay? It's hardly a war at this point, but they do work together, and so that's >>absolutely Yeah, I I definitely consider them more of like, complimentary services, um, using the right tool for the job. Sort of sense. They both have different design goals when they were originally created and set out so I definitely don't see it as a completely one or the other kind of decision and that they could both be used in the same environment and similar clusters to run whatever workload that you have. >>Excellent. And we'll get into the details of all that as we go along. So that's terrific. So I have not really been involved in in the sort of swarm area. So set the stage for us where we kind of start out with all of this. Don I know that you were involved and so guys said, set the stage for us. >>Sure, Um I mean so I've been a heavy user of swarm in my past few roles. Professionally, we've been running containers in production with Swarm for coming up on about four years. Now, Um, in our case, we you know, we looked at what was available at the time, and of course you had. Kubernetes is your biggest contender out there, but like I just mentioned, the one of the things that really led us to swarm is it's design goals were very different than kubernetes. So Kubernetes tries to have an answer for absolutely every scenario where swarm tries to have an answer for, like, the 80% of problems or challenges will say that you might come across 80% of the workloads. Um, I had a better way of saying that, but I think I got my point across >>E Yeah, I think I think you hit the nail on the head. Um, Kubernetes in particular with the way that kubernetes itself is an a P I I believe that kubernetes was, um, you know, written as a toolkit. It wasn't really intended to be used by end users directly. It was really a way to build platforms that run containers. And because it's this really, really extensible ap I you can extend it to manage all sorts of resource is swarm doesn't have that X sensibility aspect, but what it was designed to do, it does very, very well and very easily in a very, very simple sort of way. Um, it's highly opinionated about the way that you should use the product, but it works very effectively. It's very easy to use. It's very low. Um, not low effort, but low. Ah, low barrier to entry. >>Yes. Yes. Absolutely. I was gonna touch on the same thing. It's very easy for someone to come in. Pick up swarm. You know they don't They don't have to know anything about the orchestrator on day one. Most people that are getting into this space are very familiar with Docker. Compose um, and entering from Docker compose into swarm is changing one command that you would run on the command line. >>Yeah, very, very trivial to if you are already used to building docker files using composed, organize your deployment into stacks of related components. It's trivial to turn on swarm mode and then deploy your container set to a cluster. >>Well, excellent. So answer this question for me. Is the swarm of today the same as the swarm of, you know, the original swarm. So, like when swim first started is that the same is what we have now >>it's kind of ah, complicated story with the storm project because it's changed names and forms a few times. Originally in is really somewhere around 2014 in the first version, and it was a component that you really had to configure and set up separately from Docker Ah, the way that it was structured. Ah, you would just have docker installed on a number of servers are machines in your cluster. And then you would organize them into a swarm by bringing your own database and some of the tooling to get those nodes talking to each other and to organize your containers across all of your docker engines. Ah, few years later, the swarm project was retooled and baked into the docker engine. And, um, this is where we sort of get the name change from. So originally it was a feature that we called swarm. Ah. Then the Swarm Kit project was released on Get Hub and baked directly into the engine, where they renamed it as swarm mode. Because now it is a motile option that you just turn on as a button in the docker engine and because it's already there the, um, the tuning knobs that you haven't swarm kit with regard to how what my time outs are and some of these other sort of performance settings there locked there, they're there. It's part of the opinionated set of components that builds up the docker engine is that we bring in the Swarm Kit project with a certain set of defaults and settings. And that is how it operates in today's version of Docker engine. >>Uh, okay for that, that makes sense. That makes sense. So ah, so don, I know you have pretty strong feelings about this topic, but it is swarm still viable in a world that's sort of increasingly dominated by Kubernetes. >>Absolutely. And you were right. I'm very passionate about this topic where I work. We're we're doing almost all of our production work lives on swarm we only have out of Ah, we've got something like 600 different services between three and 4000 containers. At any given point in time. Out of all of those projects, all of those services we've only run into two or three that don't kind of fit into the opinionated model of swarm. So we are running those on KUBERNETES in the same cluster using Moranis is Docker enterprise offering. But, um, no, that's a very, very small percentage of services that we didn't have an answer for in swarm with one. The one case that really gets us just about every time is scaling state full services. But you're gonna have very few staple services in most environments for things like micro service architecture, which is predominantly what we build out. Swarm is perfect. It's simple. It's easy to use you, don't you? Don't end up going for miles of yamma files trying to figure out the one setting that you didn't get exactly right? Um yeah, the other Thea the other big piece of it that way really led us to adopting it so heavily in the beginning is, you know, the overlay network. So your networks don't have to span the whole cluster like they do with kubernetes. So we could we could set up a network isolation between service A and service B, just by use using the built in overlay networks. That was a huge component that, like I said, let us Teoh adopting it so heavily when we first got started. >>Excellent. You look like you're about to say something in a >>Yeah, I think that speaks to the design goals for each piece of software. On the way that I've heard this described before is with regard to the networking piece the ah, the docker networking under the hood, um, feels like it was written by a network engineer. The way that the docker engine overlay networks communicate uses ah, VX lan under the hood, which creates pseudo V lands for your containers. And if two containers aren't on the same Dylan, there's no way they can communicate with each other as opposed to the design of kubernetes networking, which is really left to the C and I implementation but still has the design philosophy of one big, flat sub net where every I p could reach every other i p and you control what is allowed to access, what by policy. So it's more of an application focused Ah design. Whereas in Docker swarm on the overlay networking side, it's really of a network engineering sort of focus. Right? >>Okay, got it. Well, so now how does all this fit in with Docker enterprise now? So I understand there's been some changes on how swarm is handled within Docker Enterprise. Coming with this new release, >>Docker s O swarm Inside Docker Enterprise is represented as both the swarm classic legacy system that we shift way back in 2014 on and then also the swarm mode that is curly used in the docker engine. Um, the Swarm Classic back end gives us legacy support for being able to run unmanaged plane containers onto a cluster. If you were to take Docker ce right now, you would find that you wouldn't be able to just do a very basic docker run against a whole cluster of machines. You can create services using the swarms services, a p I but, um, that that legacy plane container support is something that you have to set up external swarm in order to provide. So right now, the architecture of Docker Enterprise UCP is based on some of that legacy code from about five or six years ago. Okay. Ah, that gives us ability to deploy plane containers for use cases that require it as well as swarm services for those kinds of workloads that might be better served by the built in load balancing and h A and scaling features that swarm provides. >>Okay, so now I know that at one point kubernetes was deployed within Docker Enterprise as you create a swarm cluster and then deploy kubernetes on top of swarm. >>Correct? That is how the current architecture works. >>Okay. All right. And then, um what is what is where we're going with this like, Are we supposed to? Are we going to running Swarm on top of kubernetes? What's >>the the design goals for the future of swarm within branches? Stocker Enterprise are that we will start the employing Ah, like kubernetes cluster features as the base and a swarm kit on top of kubernetes. So it is like you mentioned just a reversal of the roles. I think we're finding that, um, the ability to extend kubernetes a p I to manage resource is is valuable at an infrastructure and platform level in a way that we can't do with swarm. We still want to be able to run swarm workloads. So we're going to keep the swarm kit code the swarm kit orchestration features to run swarm services as a part of the platform to keep the >>got it. Okay, so, uh, if I'm a developer and I want to run swarm, but my company's running kubernetes what? What are my one of my options there? Well, I think >>eight touched on it pretty well already where you know, it depends on your design goals, and you know, one of the other things that's come up a few times is Thea. The level of entry for for swarm is much, much simpler than kubernetes. So I mean, it's it's kind of hard to introduce anything new. So I mean, a company, a company that's got most of their stuff in kubernetes and production is gonna have a hard time maybe looking at a swarm. I mean, this is gonna be, you know, higher, higher up, not the boots on the ground. But, um, you know, the the upper management, that's at some point, you have to pay for all their support, all of it. What we did in our approach. Because there was one team already using kubernetes. We went ahead and stood up a small cluster ah, small swarm cluster and taught the developers how to use it and how to deploy code to it. And they loved it. They thought it was super simple. A time went on, the other teams took notice and saw how fast these guys were getting getting code deployed, getting services up, getting things usable, and they would look over at what the innovation team was doing and say, Hey, I I want to do that to, uh, you know, so there's there's a bunch of different approaches. That's the approach we took and it worked out very well. It looks like you wanted to say something too. >>Yeah, I think that if you if you're if you're having to make this kind of decision, there isn't There isn't a wrong choice. Ah, it's never a swarm of its role and your organization, right? Right. If you're if you're an individual and you're using docker on your workstation on your laptop but your organization wants to standardize on kubernetes there, there are still some two rules that Mike over Ah, pose. And he's manifest if you need to deploy. Coop resource is, um if you are running Docker Enterprise Swarm kit code will still be there. And you can run swarm services as regular swarm workloads on that component. So I I don't want to I don't want people to think that they're going to be like, locked into one or the other orchestration system. Ah, there the way we want to enable developer choice so that however the developer wants to do their work, they can get it done. Um Docker desktop. Ah, ships with that kubernetes distribution bundled in it. So if you're using a Mac or Windows and that's your development, uh, system, you can run docker debt, turn on your mode and run the kubernetes bits. So you have the choices. You have the tools to deploy to either system. >>And that's one of the things that we were super excited about when they introduced Q. Burnett ease into the Docker Enterprise offering. So we were able to run both, so we didn't have to have that. I don't want to call it a battle or argument, but we didn't have to make anybody choose one or the other. We, you know, we gave them both options just by having Docker enterprise so >>excellent. So speaking of having both options, let's just say for developers who need to make a decision while should I go swarm, or should I go kubernetes when it sort of some of the things that they should think about? >>So I think that certain certain elements of, um, certain elements of containers are going to be agnostic right now. So the the the designing a docker file and building a container image, you're going to need to know that skill for either system that you choose to operate on. Ah, the swarm value. Some of the storm advantage comes in that you don't have to know anything beyond that. So you don't have to learn a whole new A p I a whole new domain specific language using Gamel to define your deployment. Um, chances are that if you've been using docker for any length of time, you probably have a whole stack of composed files that are related to things that you've worked on. And, um, again, the barrier to entry to getting those running on swarm is very low. You just turn it on docker stack, deploy, and you're good to go. So I think that if you're trying to make that choice, if you I have a use case that doesn't require you to manage new resource is if you don't need the Extensible researchers part, Ah, swarm is a great great, great viable option. >>Absolutely. Yeah, the the recommendation I've always made to people that are just getting started is start with swarm and then move into kubernetes and going through the the two of them, you're gonna figure out what fits your design principles. What fits your goals. Which one? You know which ones gonna work best for you. And there's no harm in choosing one or the other using both each one of you know, very tailor fit for very various types of use cases. And like I said, kubernetes is great at some things, but for a lot of other stuff, I still want to use swarm and vice versa. So >>on my home lab, for all my personal like services that I run in my, uh, my home network, I used storm, um, for things that I might deploy onto, you know, a bit this environment, a lot of the ones that I'm using right now are mainly tailored for kubernetes eso. I think especially some of the tools that are out there in the open source community as well as in docker Enterprise helped to bridge that gap like there's a translator that can take your compose file, turn it into kubernetes. Yeah, Mel's, um, if if you're trying to decide, like on the business side, should we standardize on former kubernetes? I think like your what? What functionality are you looking at? Out of getting out of your system? If you need things like tight integration into a ah infrastructure vendor such as AWS Azure or VM ware that might have, like plug ins for kubernetes. You're now you're getting into that area where you're managing Resource is of the infrastructure with your orchestration. AP I with kube so things like persistent volumes can talk to your storage device and carve off chunks of storage and assign those two pods if you don't have that need or that use case. Um, you know, KUBERNETES is bringing in a lot of these features that you maybe you're just not taking advantage of. Um, similarly, if you want to take advantage of things like auto scaling to scale horizontally, let's say you have a message queue system and then a number of workers, and you want to start scaling up on your workers. When your CPU hits a certain a metric. That is something that Kubernetes has built right into it. And so, if you want that, I would probably suggest that you look at kubernetes if you don't need that, or if you want to write some of that tooling yourself. Swarm doesn't have an object built into it that will do automatic horizontal scaling based on some kind of metric. So I always consider this decision as a what features are the most I available to you and your business that you need to Yep. >>All right. Excellent. Well, and, ah, fortunately, of course, they're both available on Docker Enterprise. So aren't we lucky? All right, so I am going to wrap this up. I want to thank Don Bauer Docker captain, for coming here and spending some time with us and eight of Manzini. I would like to thank you. I know that the the, uh, circumstances are less than ideal here for your recording today, but we appreciate you joining us. Um and ah, both of you. Thank you very much. And I want to invite all of you. First of all, thank you for joining us. We know your time is valuable and I want to invite you all Teoh to take a look at Docker Enterprise. Ah, follow the link that's on your screen and we'll see you in the next session. Thank you all so much. Thank you. >>Thank you, Nick.

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of PegaWorld iNspire, brought to you by Pegasystems. >> Hi everybody, this is Dave Vellante and welcome to theCUBE's coverage of PegaWorld iNspire 2020. And now that the dust has settled on the event, we wanted to have a little postmortem power panel, and I'm really excited to have three great guests here today. Adrian Swinscoe is a customer service and experience advisor and the best-selling author of a couple of books: "How to Wow" and "Punk CX." Adrian great to see you, thanks for coming on. >> Hey Dave. >> And Shelly Kramer's a principal, analyst, and a founding partner at Futurum Research, CUBE alum. Shelly, good to see you. >> Hi, great to see you too. >> And finally, Don Schuerman who is the CTO of Pegasystems and one of the people that was really highlighting the keynotes. Don, thanks for your time, appreciate you coming on. >> Great to be here. >> Guys, let's start with some of the takeaways from the event, and if you don't mind I'm going to set it up. I had some, I had many many notes. But I'll take a cue from Alan's keynote, where he talked about three things: rethinking the customer engagement, that whole experience, that as a service, I'm going to say that certainly the second part of last decade came to the front and center and we think is going to continue in spades. And then new tech, we heard about that. Don we're going to ask you to chime in on that. Modern software, microservices, we've got machine intelligence now. And then I thought there were some really good customer examples. We heard from Siemens, we heard from the CIO and head of digital at Aflac, the Bank of Australia. So, some really good customer examples. But Shelly, let me start with you. What were your big takeaways of PegaWorld iNspire 2020, the virtual edition? >> You know, what I love is a focus, and we have talked a lot about that here at Futurum Research, but what I love is the thinking that what really is important now is to think about rethinking and kind of tearing things apart. Especially when we're in a time, we're in difficult economic times, and so instead of focusing on rebuilding and relaunching as quickly as possible, I think that now's the time to really focus on reexamining what is it that our customers want? How is it that we can best serve them? And really sort of start from ground zero and examine our thinking. And I think that's really at the heart of digital transformation, and I think that both in this virtual event and in some interviews I was lucky enough to do in advance with some of the Pega senior team, that was really a key focus, is really thinking about how we can re-architect things, how we can do things in ways that are more efficient, that impact people more effectively, that impact the bottom line more effectively. And to me that's really exciting. >> So Adrian, CX is obviously your wheelhouse. A lot of the conversation at PegaWorld iNspire was of course about customer experience, customer service. How do you think the content went? What were some of the highlights for you? And maybe, what would you have liked to hear more of? >> Well I think, thanks Dave, I actually really enjoyed it. I actually kind of thought was, first of all I should say that I've been to a bunch of virtual summits and I thought this was one of the best ones I've done in terms of its pace and its interactivity. I love the fact that Don was bouncing around the screen, kind of showing us around the menu and things. I thought that was great. But the things that I thought really stood out for me was this idea of the context around accelerating digital transformation. And that's very contextual, it's almost being forced upon us. But then this idea of also the center-out thinking and the Process Fabric. Because it really reminded me of, and Don you can maybe correct me if I'm wrong here, is taking a systems-thinking approach to delivering the right outcomes for customers. Because it's always struck me that there's a contradiction at the heart of the rhetoric around customer-centricity where people say they want to do the right things by customers but then they force them down this channel-centric or process-centric way of thinking. And so actually I thought it was really refreshing to hear about this center-out and Process Fabric platform that Pega's building. And I thought it's really exciting because it felt like actually we're going to start to take a more systemic look and take to delivering great service and great experience. So I thought that was really great. Those were my big headlines out of the summit. >> So Don, one of the-- >> Adrian I think-- >> Go ahead, please. >> Yeah, I think the whole idea, you know, and Alan referred to center-out as a business architecture, and I think that's really an important concept because this is really about the intersection of that business goal. How do I truly become customer-centric? And then how do I actually make my technology do it? And it's really important for that to work where you put your business logic in the technology. If you continue to do it in the sort of channel-centric way or really data-centric, system-centric way that historically has been the approach, I don't think you can build a sustainable platform for great customer engagement. So I think that idea of a business architecture that you clued in on a little bit is really central to how we've been thinking about this. >> Let's stay on that for a second. But first of all, I just want to mention, you guys did a good job of not just trying to take a physical event and plug in into virtual. So congratulations on that. The virtual clicker toss, and you know, you were having some fun eating your eggs. I mean that was, that's great. And the Dropkick Murphys couldn't be live, but you guys still leveraged that, so well done. One of the better ones that I've seen. But I want to stay on your point there. Alan talked about some of the mistakes that are made, and one of the questions I have for you guys is, what is the state of customer experience today, and why the divergence between great, and good, and pretty crappy? And Alan talked about, well, people try to impose business process top-down, or they try to infuse logic in the database bottom-up. You really got to do that middle-out. So, Don I want to come back to you. Let's explore that a little bit. What do you really mean by middle-out? Where am I putting the actual business logic? >> Yeah, I think this is important, right. And I think that a lot of time we have experiences as customers. And I had one of these recently with a cable provider, where I spent a bunch of time on their website chatting with a chatbot of some kind, that then flipped me over to a human. When the chatbot flipped me to the human, the human didn't know what I was doing with the chatbot. And that human eventually told me I had to call somebody. So I picked up the phone, I made the phone call. And that person didn't know what I was doing on chat with the human or with the chatbot. So every time there's a customer, I'm restarting. I'm reexplaining where I am. And that to me is a direct result of that kind of channel-centric thinking, where all of my business logic ends up embedded in, "Well hey, we're going to build a cool chatbot. "And now we're going to build a cool chat system. "And by the way, "we're going to keep our contact centers running." But I'm not thinking holistically about the customer experience. And that's why we think this center-out approach is so important, because I want to go below the channel. And I want to think about that customer journey. What's the outcome I'm trying to get to? In the case of my interaction, I was just trying to increase my bandwidth so that I could do events like this, right? What's that outcome that I'm trying to get to and how do I get the customer to that outcome in a way that's as efficient for the business and as easy for the customer as possible regardless of what channel they're on. And I think that's a little bit of a new way of thinking. And again, it means thinking not just about the customer goal, but having an opinion, whether you are a business leader or an IT person, about where that logic belongs in your architecture. >> So, Adrian. Don just described the sort of bot and human experience, which mimics a lot of the human experience that we've all touched in the past. So, but the customer journey that Don talked about isn't necessarily one journey. There's multiple journeys. So what's your take on how organizations can do better with that kind of service. >> Well I think you're absolutely right, Dave. I mean, actually during the summer I was talking, I was listening to Paul Greenberg talk about the future of customer service. And Paul said something that I think was really straightforward but really insightful. He said, "Look, organizations think about customer journeys "but customers don't think about journeys "in the way that organizations do. "They think discontinuously." So it's like, "I'm going to go to channel one, "and then channel three, and then channel four, "and then channel five, and then back to channel two. "And then back to channel five again." And they expect those conversations to be picked up across those different channels. And so I think what we've got to do is develop, as Don said, build an architecture that is, that works around trying to support the different journeys but allows that flexibility and that adaptability for customers to jump around and to have one of those continuous but disconnected conversations. But it's up to us to try and connect them all, to deliver the service and experience that the customers actually want. >> Now Shelly, a lot of the customer experience actually starts with the employees, and employees don't like when the customer is yelling at them saying, "I just answered all those questions. "Why do I have to answer them again?" So you've, at your firm, you guys have written a lot about this, you've thought a lot about it, you have some data I know you shared on theCUBE one time that 80% of employees are disengaged. And so, that affects the customer experience, doesn't it? >> Yeah it does, you know. And I think that when I'm listening to Don's explanation about his cable company, I'm having flashbacks to what feels like hundreds of my own experiences. And you're just thinking, "This does not have to be this complicated!" You know, ten years ago that same thing that Don just described happened with phone calls. You know, you called one person and they passed you off to somebody else, and they passed you off to somebody else, and you were equally as frustrated as a customer. Now what's happening a lot of times is that we're plugging technology in, like a chat bot, that's supposed to make things better but we're not developing a system and processes throughout our organization, and also change management, what do I want to say, programs within the organization and so we're kind of forgetting all of those things. So what's happening is that we're still having customers having those same experiences that are a decade old, and technology is part of the mix. And it really shouldn't be that way. And so, one thing that I really enjoyed, speaking about employees, was listening to Rich Gilbert from Aflac. And he was talking about when you're moving from legacy processes to new ones, you have to plan for and invest in change management. And we talk about this all the time here at Futurum, you know technology alone is never the answer. It's technology plus people. And so you have to invest in people, you have to invest in their training in order to be able to support and manage change and to drive change. And I think one really important part of that equation is also listening to your employees and getting their feedback, and making them part of the process. Because when they are truly on your front lines, dealing with customers, many times dealing with stressed, upset, frustrated customers, you know, they have a lot of insights. And sometimes we don't bring them into those conversations, certainly early enough in the process to help, to let them help guide us in terms of the solutions and the processes that we put in place. I think that's really important. >> Yeah, a lot of-- >> Shelly, I think-- >> If I may, a lot of the frustration with some employees sometimes is those processes change, and they're unknown going into it. We saw that with COVID, Don. And so, your thoughts on this? >> Yeah, I mean, I think the environment employees are working in is changing rapidly. We've got a customer, a large telecommunications company in the UK where their customer service requests are now being handled by about 4,000 employees pulled from their marketing department working distributed because that's the world that we're in. And the thing I was going to say in response to Shelly is, Alan mentioned in his keynote this idea of design thinking. And one of the reasons why I think that's so important is that it's actually about giving the people on the front lines a voice. It's a format for engaging the employees who actually know the day-to-day experiences of the customers, the day-to-day experiences of a customer service agent, and pulling them into the solution. How do we develop the systems, how do we rethink our processing, how does that need to plug into the various channels that we have? And that's why a lot of our focus is not just on the customer service technology, but the underlying low code platform that allows us to build those processes and those chunks of the customer journey. We often refer to them as "microjourneys" that lead to a specific outcome. And if you're using a low code based platform, something that allows anybody to come in and define that process, you can actually pull employees from the front lines and put them directly on your project teams. And all of a sudden you get better engagement but you also get this incredible insight flowing into what you're doing because you're talking to the people who live this day in and day out. >> Well and when you have-- >> So let's stay on this for a second, if we can. Shelly, go ahead please. >> Sure. When you have a chance to talk with those people, to talk with those front line employees who are having an opportunity to work with low code, no code, they get so excited about it and their jobs are completely, the way they think about their jobs and their contribution to the company, and their contribution to the customer, and the customer experience, is just so wonderful to see. And it's such an easy thing to do, so I think that that's really a critical part of the equation as it relates to success with these programs. >> Yeah, staying close to the customer-- >> Can I jump in? >> Yeah, please Adrian. >> Can I jump in on that a little, a second. I think Shelly, you're absolutely right. I think that it's a really simple thing. You talk about engagement. And one of the key parts of engagement, it seems to me, is that, is giving people a voice and making them feel important and feel heard. And so to go and ask for their opinion and to help them get involved and make a difference to the work that they do, the outcomes that their customers receive, and the overall productivity and efficiency, can only have a positive impact. And it's almost like, it feels self-evident that you'd do that but unfortunately it's not very common. >> Right. It does feel self-evident. But we miss on that front a lot. >> So I want to ask, I'm going to come back to, we talked about people process, we'll come back to that. But I want to talk about the tech. You guys announced, the big announcement was the Pega Process Fabric. You talked about that, Don, as a platform for digital platforms. You've got all these cool microservices and dynamic APIs and being able to compose on the fly, so some pretty cool stuff there. I wonder, with the virtual event, you know, with the physical event you've got the hallway traffic, you talk to people and you get face-to-face reactions. Were you able to get your kind of real-time reactions to the announcement? What was that like? Share with us please. >> Yeah, so, we got well over 1,000 questions in during the event and a lot of them were either about Process Fabric or comments about it. So I think people are definitely excited about this. And when you strip away all of the buzzwords around microservices and cloud, et cetera, I think what we're really getting at here is that work is going to be increasingly more distributed. We are living proof of that right now, the four of us all coming here from different studios. But work is going to be distributed for a bunch of reasons. Because people are more distributed, because organizations increasingly are building customer journeys that aren't just inside their walls, but are connected to the partners and their ecosystem. I'm a bank but I may, as part of my mortgage process, connect somebody up to a home insurer. And all of a sudden the home buying process goes beyond my four walls. And then finally, as you get all of these employees engaged with building their low code apps and being citizen developers, you want to let the 1,000 flowers to bloom but you also need a way to connect that all back together. And Process Fabric is about putting the technology in place to allow us to take these distributed bits of work that we need to do and weave them together into experiences that are coherent for a customer and easy for an employee to navigate. Because I think it's going to be really really important that we do that. And even as we take our systems and break them up into microservices, well customers don't interact with microservices. Customers interact with journeys, with experiences, with the processes you lay out, and making sure we can connect that up together into something that feels easy for the customer and the employee, and gets them to that result they want quickly, that's what the vision of Process Fabric is all about. >> You know, it strikes me, I'm checking my notes here. You guys talked about a couple of examples. One was, I think you talked about the car as sort of a mobility experience, maybe, you know, it makes me wonder with all this AI and autonomous vehicle stuff going on, at what point is owning and driving your own vehicle really going to be not the norm anymore? But you talked about this totally transformed, sorry to use that word, but experience around autos. And certainly financial services is maybe a little bit more near-term. But I wonder Shelly, Futurum, you know, you guys look ahead, how far can we actually go with AI in this realm? >> Well, I think we can go pretty far and I think it'll happen pretty fast. And I think that we're seeing that already in terms of what happened when we had the Coronavirus COVID-19, and of course we're still navigating through that, is that all of a sudden things that we talked about doing, or thought about doing, or planned doing, you know later on in this year or 2021, we had to do all of those things immediately. And so again, it is kind of like ripping the Bandaid off. And we're finding that AI plays a tremendously important role in relieving the workload on the frontline workers, and being able to integrate empathy into decision making. And you know, I go back to, I remember when you all first rolled out the empathy part of your platform, Don, and just watching a demo on that of how you can slide this empathy meter to be warmer, and see in true dollars and cents over time the impact of treating your customers with more empathy, what that delivers to a company. And I think that AI that continues to build and learn and again, what we're having right now, is we're having this gigantic volume of needs, of conversation, of all these transactions that need to happen at once, and great volumes make for better outcomes as it relates to artificial intelligence and how learning can happen more quickly over time. So I think that it's, we're definitely going to see more use of AI more rapidly than we might've seen it before, and I don't think that's going to slow down, at all. Certainly, I mean there's no reason for it to slow down. The benefits are tremendous. The benefits are tremendous, and let me step back and say, following a conversation with Rob Walker on responsible AI, that's a whole different ball of wax. And I think that's something that Pega has really embraced and planted a flag in. So I think that we'll see great things ahead with AI, and I think that we'll see the Pega team really leading as it relates to ethical AI. And I think that's tremendously important as well. >> Well that's the other side of the coin, you know. I asked how far can we go and I guess you're alluding to how far should we go. But Adrian, we also heard about agility and empathy. I mean, I want an empathic service provider. Are agility and empathy related to customer service, and how so? >> Well, David, I think that's a great question. I think that, you talk about agility and talk about empathy, and I think the thing is, what we probably know from our own experience is that being empathetic is sometimes going to be really hard. And it takes time, and it takes practice to actually get better at it. It's almost like a new habit. Some people are naturally better at it than others. But you know, organizationally, I talk about that we need to almost build, almost like an empathetic musculature at an organizational level if we're going to achieve this. And it can be aided by technology, but we, when we develop new muscles it takes time. And sometimes you go through a bit of pain in doing that. So I think that's where the agility comes in, is that we have to test and learn and try new things, be willing to get things wrong and then correct, and then kind of move on. And then learn from these kind of things. And so I think the agility and empathy, it does go hand in hand and it's something that will drive growth and increasing empathetic interactions as we go forward. But I think it's also, just to build on Shelly's point, I think you're absolutely right that Pega has been leading the way in this sort of dimension, in terms of its T-switch and its empathetic advisor. But now the ethical AI testing or the ethical bias testing adds a dimension to that to make sure it's not just about all horsepower, but being able to make sure that you can steer your car. To use your analogy. >> So AI's coming whether we like it or not. Right, Shelly? Go ahead. >> It is. One real quick real world example here is, you know, okay so we have this time when a lot of consumers are furloughed. Out of work. Stressed about finances. And we have a lot of Pega's customers are in the financial services space. Some of the systems that they've established, they've developed over time, the processes they've developed over time is, "Oh, I'm talking with Shelly Kramer and she has a "blah-blah-blah account here. "And this would be a great time to sell her on "this additional service," or whatever. And when you can, so that was our process yesterday. But when you're working with an empathic mindset and you are also needing to be incredibly agile because of current circumstances and situations, your technology, the platform that you're using, can allow you to go, "Okay I'm dealing "with a really stressed customer. "This is not the best time "to offer any additional services." Instead what we need to ask is this series of questions: "How can we help?" Or, "Here are some options." Or whatever. And I think that it's little tweaks like that that can help you in the customer service realm be more agile, be more empathetic, and really deliver an amazing customer experience as a result. And that's the technology. >> If I could just add to that. Alan mentioned in his keynote a specific example, which is Commonwealth Bank of Australia. And they were able, multiple times this year, once during the Australian wildfires and then again in response to the COVID crisis, to completely shift and turn on a dime how they interacted with their customer, and to move from a prioritization of maybe selling things to a prioritization of responding to a customer need. And maybe offering payment deferrals or assistance to a customer. But back to what we were talking about earlier, that agility only happened because they didn't have the logic for that embedded in all their channels. They had it centralized. They had it in a common brain that allowed them to make that change in one place and instantly propagate it to all of the 18 different channels in which they touch their customer. And so, being able to have agility and that empathy, to my mind, is explicitly tied to that concept of a center-out business architecture that Alan was talking about. >> Oh, absolutely. >> And, you know, this leads to discussion about automation, and again, how far can we go, how far should we go? Don, you've been interviewed many many times, like any tech executive, about the impact of AI on jobs. And, you know, the typical response of course is, "No, we want augmentation." But the reality is, machines have always replaced humans it's just, now it's the first time in terms of cognitive function. So it's a little different for us this time around. But it's clear, as I said, AI is coming whether we like it or not. Automation is very clearly on the top of people's minds. So how do you guys see the evolution of automation, the injection of automation into applications, the ubiquity of automations coming in this next decade? Shelly, let's start with you. >> You know, I was thinking you were going to ask Don that question so I'm just listening and listening. (laughing) >> Okay, well we can go with Don, that's-- >> No I'm happy to answer it. It's fine, it just wasn't what I expected. You know, we are really immersed in the automation space. So I very much see the concerns that people on the front line have, that automation is going to replace them. And the reality of it is, if a job that someone does can be automated, it will be automated. It makes sense. It makes good business sense to do that. And I think that what we are looking at from a business agility standpoint, from a business resilience standpoint, from a business survival standpoint, is really how can we deliver most effectively to serve the needs of our customers. Period. And how we can do that quickly and efficiently and without frustration and in a way that is cost effective. All of those things play into what makes a successful business today, as well as what keeps employees, I'm sorry, as well as what keeps customers served, loyal, staying around. I think that we live in a time where customer loyalty is fleeting. And so I think that smart businesses have to look at how do we deepen the relationships that we have with customers? How can we use automation to do that? And the thing about it, you know, I'll go back to the example that Don gave about his cable company that all of us have lived through. It's just like, "Oh my gosh. "There's got to be a better way." So compare that to, and I'm sure all of us can think of an experience where you had to deal with a customer service situation in some way or another, and it was the most awesome thing ever. And you walked away from it and you just went, "Oh my gosh. I know I was talking to a bot here or there." Or, "I know I was doing this, but that solved my problem. "I can't believe it was so easy! "I can't believe it was so easy! "I can't wait to buy something from this company again!" You know what I'm saying? And that's really, I think, the role that automation can play. Is that it can really help deepen existing relationships with our customers, and help us serve them better. And it can also help our employees do things that are more interesting and that are more relevant to the business. And I think that that's important too. So, yes, jobs will go. Yes, automation will slide into places where we've done things manually and repetitive processes before, but I think that's a good thing. >> So, we've got to end it shortly here but I'll give you guys each a last opportunity to chime in. And Adrian, I want to start with you. I invoked the T-word before, transformation, a kind of tongue-in-cheek joking because I know it's not your favorite word. But it is the industry's favorite word. Thinking ahead for the future, we've talked about AI, we've talked about automation, people, process and tech. What do you see as the future state of customer experience, this mix of human and machine? What do we have to look forward to? >> So I think that, first of all, let me tackle the transformation thing. I mean, I remember talking about this with Duncan Macdonald who is the CIO across at UPC, which is one of Pega's customers, on my podcast there the other week. And he talked about, he's the cosponsor of a three year digital transformation program. But then he appended the description of that by saying it's a transformation program that will never end. That's the thing that I think about, because actually, if you think about what we're talking about here, we're not transforming to anything in particular, you know. It's not like going from here to there. And actually, the thing that I think we need to start thinking about is, rather than transformation we actually need to think about an evolution. And adopting an evolutionary state. And we talked about being responsive. We talked about being adaptable. We talked about being agile. We talk about testing and learning and all these different sort of things, that's evolutionary, right? It's not transformational, it's evolutionary. If you think about Charles Darwin and the theory of the species, that's an evolutionary process. And there's a quote, as you've mentioned I authored this book called "Punk CX," there's a quote that I use in the book which is taken from a Bad Religion song called "No Control" and it's called, "There is no vestige of a beginning, "and no prospect of an end." And that quote comes from a 1788 book by James Hutton, which was one of the first treaties on geology, and what he found through all these studies was actually, the formation of the earth and its continuous formation, there is no vestige of a beginning, no prospect of an end. It's a continuous process. And I think that's what we've got to embrace is that actually change is constant. And as Alan says, you have to build for change and be ready for change. And have the right sort of culture, the right sort of business architecture, the right sort of technology to enable that. Because the world is getting faster and it is getting more competitive. This is probably not the last crisis that we will face. And so, like in most evolutionary things, it wasn't the fittest and the strongest that survived, it was the ones that were most adaptable that survived. And I think that's the kind of thing I want to land on, is actually how, it's the ones that kind of grasp that, grasp that whole concept are the ones that are going to succeed out of this. And, what they will do will be... We can't even imagine what they're going to do right now. >> And, thank you. And Shelly, it's not only responding to, as Adrian was saying, to crisis, but it's also being in a position to very rapidly take advantage of opportunities and that capability is going to be important. You guys are futurists, it's in the name. Your thoughts? >> Well I think that, you know, Adrian's comments were incredibly salient, as always. And I think that-- >> Thank you. >> The thing that this particular crisis that we are navigating through today has in many ways been bad, but in other ways, I think it's been incredibly good. Because it has forced us, in a way that we really haven't had to deal with before, to act quickly, to think quickly, to rethink and to embrace change. Oh, we've got to work from home! Oh, we've got 20 people that need to work from home, we have 20,000 people that need to work from home. What technology do we need? How do we take care of our customers? All of these things we've had to figure out in overdrive. And humans, generally speaking, aren't great at change. But what we are forced to do as a result of this pandemic is change. And rethink everything. And I think that, you know, the point about transformation not being a beginning and an end, we are never, ever, ever done. It is evolutionary and I think that as we look to the future and to one of your comments, we are going faster with more exciting technology solutions out there, with people who are incredibly smart, and so I think that it's exciting and I think that all we are going to see is more and more and more change, and I think it will be a time of great resilience, and we'll see some businesses survive and thrive, and we'll see other businesses not survive. But that's been our norm as well, so I think it's really, I think we have some things to thank this pandemic for. Which is kind of weird, but I also try to be fairly optimistic. But I do, I think we've learned a lot and I think we've seen some really amazing exciting things from businesses who have done this. >> Well thanks for sharing that silver lining, Shelly. And then, Don, I'm going to ask you to bring us to the finish line. And I'm going to close my final question to you, or pose it. You guys had the wrecking ball, and I've certainly observed, when it comes to things like digital transformations, or whatever you want to call it, that there was real complacency, and you showed that cartoon with the wrecking ball saying, "Ehh not in my life, not on my watch. "We're doing fine." Well, this pandemic has clearly changed people's thinking, automation is really top of mind now at executive. So you guys are in a good spot from that standpoint. But your final thoughts, please? >> Yeah, I mean, I want to concur with what Adrian and Shelly said and if I can drop another rock quote in there. This one is from Bob Dylan. And Dylan famously said, "The times they are a changing." But the quote that I keep on my wall is one that he tossed off during an interview where he said, "I accept chaos. "I'm not sure if it accepts me." But I think digital transformation looks a lot less like that butterfly emerging from a cocoon to go off happy to smell the flowers, and looks much more like accepting that we are in a world of constant and unpredictable change. And I think one of the things that the COVID crisis has done is sort of snapped us awake to that world. I was talking to the CIO of a large media company who is one of our customers, and he brought up the fact, you know, like Croom said, "We're all agile now. "I've been talking about five years, "trying to get this company to operate in an agile way, "and all of a sudden we had to do it. "We had no choice, we had to respond, "we had to try new things, we had to fail fast." And my hope is, as we think about what customer engagement and automation and business efficiency looks like in the future, we keep that mindset of trying new things and continuously adapting. Evolving. At the end of the day, our company's brand promise is, "Build for change." And we chose that because we think that that's what organizations, the one thing they can design for. They can design for a future that will continue to change. And if you put the right architecture in place, if you take that center-out mindset, you can support those immediate needs, but set yourself up for a future of continuous change and continuous evolution and adaptation. >> Well guys, I'll quote somebody less famous. Jeff Frick, who said, "The answer to every question "lives somewhere in a CUBE interview." and you guys have given us a lot of answers. I really appreciate your time. I hope that next year at PegaWorld iNspire we can see each other face-to-face and do some live interviews. But really appreciate the insights and all your good work. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Absolutely. >> And thank you for watching everybody, this is Dave Vellante and our coverage of PegaWorld iNspire 2020. Be right back, right after this short break. (lighthearted music)

>>live from San Francisco. It's the Q covering Micron Insight 2019 to You by Micron. >>Welcome back to San Francisco, everybody. We're here. Appear 27 covering the micron inside. 2019. I'm David Lot day with my co host, David Flores. Sanjay Moreau chose here. He's the president and CEO of Micron. Sanjay, great to see you again. Good to >>see you, too. >>I love the show because you guys are a highly technical company. You get you get down in the weeds and talk about nano meters and cycles and things like that. But we're here talking about technology, how it's changing people's lives. I mean, you see, that is your mission. So tell us a year on what's new from this >>event. You new at this event is so many new products that we announced today. You know, you see, Micron, I'd like to say that my clone 41 year old, but it has a new heart beat and you see that new heartbeat coming through New innovations, new products, you know, several new solid state drive solutions. Breakthrough speeds portable. SSD renounced our tent, a security solution as well as demonstrated test platform a platform for deep learning algorithms to be applied, enabling influence at EJ. So you see my front continuing to focus on driving high value solutions, engaging deeper with the ecosystem, engaging with our customers to understand what are the main points off the future and bringing innovative technology solutions. And, of course, during the course of last year in a while it was a year where memory pricing went down substantially because of some excess supply forces demand. But my crone, actually in that year produced the second best year in the history of the company. And during the year, he also had the second best year for free class cash flow for the company, >>about $13 billion in nearly 12 months. I want to get into some of that. But before I do our industry and you know this well has marched to the cadence of Moore's law for decades and decades of that has been the innovation engine. It no longer is. You talked about that on your panel today, the innovation engine is now data applying machine intelligence and a I and machine learning to that data scaling with cloud. Now the edge comes into a whole new innovation cocktail. I wonder if you could comment on that in terms of what it means for your business. >>So, yes, in terms of innovation, challenges you to Morse law scaling, but also the workloads that are there today, driving the eye of the future required, nor the solutions of yesterday. They require new, innovative architectures. I like to call them be spoke processors like you have a new custom suit for that fits a particular individual. Now baseball processors that actually meet needs off the specific workloads. But what is important is that as these new innovations, new architectures proliferate through the ecosystem. Memory and storage is key because the trends off the eye, after all, are about drawing deeper insight and creating greater value from all the data that billions of devices the coyote devices are creating around the world. So tremendous support unity for memory and storage. We are focused on bringing solutions with Denham with flash that meet the needs of our customers in terms of performance be announced today. You know the highest clocking speed for our ballistics. Dylan. You know, a delight to the gamers, but we also announce new SS D's for enterprise application, we announce a three d cross point x 100 solid state drive with the fastest in the industry kind of performance. So these are the kind of things were focused on. Yes, technology is getting more complex in and, you know, event from 64 layers to 96 layers. And next year, going 228 layers on Dedham side were the first ones to introduce the ones e technology Norden the industry and actually forced ones to start shipping already in production in the industry. This one z dina nor has the smallest feature size. So these are new, exciting things that are happening at my crime. >>I mean, Sanjay's right. They see all these alternative processes going on. You see, cos tech companies building their own custom silicon, right? I mean, >>so yes, way we're seeing these hybrid solutions being put together on dhe, seeing that the rise of new players completely like arm, for example, now taking a more and more important part in that. So But I'd like to just ask one question on three D cross point that that was an interesting one. How you gonna get volume in that is there going to be through working with some of these other vendors? Because Intel have just combined it with The process is essentially, Are you looking at new ways that you can use that at the lower end to get volume up? >>Where's that fit in your overall strategy? >>Certainly, as we said in the memory hierarchy, TV Cross Point fits in very nicely between NAND on one end and Di Dam on the other end city cost point as a persistent memory gives the benefit that it has capacities, ship densities that can be higher than Denham. Yet it has performance that is close to Denham and much faster than then. And it has the persistence, the non volatility that man has as well. So you can imagine with those kind of attributes, it will have exciting new opportunities in the future. But these new technologies do take several years before they become mainstream technologies. This is still early innings for three D plus point technology. Be engaged with the ecosystem partners with the customers in terms of understanding how this will fit in best in terms of their data center applications. This is what we have started working on This is what we announced the product. And we'll, of course, continue to evolve. The road map are pretty cross point technology. I just also want to touch upon what you said that Yes, you do see that compute now is not being just done like yesterday with CP use. Yes, you do have that idea of solutions. Si pues gp used tp use a six and f bjs. And here's some of the social media giants and those tech giants that are driving innovation in various industry segments, including transportation. They have their own silicon, you know, to address their deep learning requirements, and that creates new. Unfortunately, for us, this is what we call putting silicon back into Silicon Valley. Silicon is driving the innovations today that are coming out of Silicon Valley, regardless off world and market segment and Member Lee and storage is very much at the heart is at the center of yours. >>So you know I want to retire about vertical integration and one of my business early business heroes was Al Shugart. When I was a young puppet, i d. C. And he educated me on the importance of vertical integration and his market, which of course, was spinning destroys heads, media, etcetera. That was a game changer for that that you know, emerging company at the time. See gate. How is vertical? What your philosophy and vertical integration And how does it affect your business and your customers? >>So vertical indication enables us to bring value to our customers, bring greater value to our customers. We have a massive scale off manufacturing that is built on a very comprehensive and actually the world's most unique technology platform. Now taking this vertical integration of the technology platform manufacturing scales off, you know, more than six million acres a year and extending it to controller and form their expertise deep packaging expertise to bring high bandwidth Delia memory solutions for data center applications as well. A solid state drives and multi chip manage nan solutions for smartphone and automotive applications. These are just examples off how we're leveraging our vertical integration, extending it into controllers and firmware and packaging and assembly capability to really bring a diverse and expanded product for a full year to the market, do air just the markets needs from cloud to the edge. And now we're extending our work till indication capabilities even deeper from we have gone from silicon two solutions and now going from also silicon. Two solutions to system and software working with customers to understand water, the hardware and software intricacies involved that can help bring out even more power from the memory as they look at, you know, driving their deep learning algorithms for training as well as for influence. I think this is the vertical integration on build on the most unique platform of technologies. Nobody else in the world has Denham, NAND and CD cross point now building vertical indication on this gives us tremendous defense created opportunity to bring value to our cast. >>A troll more value or being able leveraged. I wanna ask you about your business. You mentioned a record number two free cash flow year for you guys. Two summers ago, I listened to you at the analyst, the Wall Street analyst meetings in you. We're very much aware of the demand and supply pending imbalance that was coming. And you said at the time we're gonna manage through that much better than we have. Historically, it reminds me of airlines when you go when you fly now there's no empty seats, so and you've done a masterful job. The stock prices stayed up. Now, granted, you know you've reduced share count. But how have you done that? What is the new discipline that has allowed you to navigate through those icebergs? >>Soviet Full focus on accelerating our technology development. We're focused on making, for example, technology development exploration. I mentioned earlier being the forest to the market with one C D M, which has the smallest feature size, right. That ability to accelerate technology development and deploy it in production to meet our CUSTOMERSNEEDS gives us ability to manage cost reduction ability as well. So Micron has actually in terms of cost reductions on a year over year basis has led the industry both on the same side as well as the NAN site. This has contributed to stronger financial performance of the company. During 2019 there, prices came down due to some excess supply in the industry, and yet Micron, due to its healthy cost position, was able to produce better financial results as well. Another very important element is increasing the mics off high value solutions, infusing the mics off SS D's and Managed man for mobile applications, as well as bringing more high performance memory to the Bennett, did a memory to the benefit of our customers. High value solutions, Cost positioning, technology acceleration. These have bean the elements that will give us long lasting advantage in terms of continuing to weather the potential ups and downs in our industry. And, you know, yes, we're proud of the fact that, unlike in the past, in an environment like will be experienced in 2019 with respect to price declines, Micron would have had media challenges Micron actually delivered, as I said, the second best year in terms of revenues profits as well as free cash flow. And I want to highlight that we narrowed the gap with our competitors. We narrow the gap with our competitors in terms of orbital margin again as a result, off a stronger, more diversified high value product portfolio and our cost reduction capabilities. >>Yeah, and you've also done a great job communicating to Wall Street. So my last question I know you gotta go is around tech for good. Mark Betty of's been really front center on this. You said that are really jar job is to make lives better, because I still say your job is to increase shareholder value as well. Whoa is the CEO who Mrs 4/4 in a row, but then points to tech for good at the same time. New new workers millennials expect checked for good. How do you see those fitting together? What's your philosophy? There >>were very passionate at Micron that it is important for us that we support the communities that be working where our team members 11. Yes, we want to dry for betterment of humanity through bringing the benefit off our technologies and products, you know? And of course, you see your life's changed with the benefit of more memory and storage, whether it is in your smart home or your smartphone or all of the benefits that you're getting from advances in technology today. But we also absolutely have a social responsibility going from customers to communities, really making sure that we had a good corporate citizen. So at my crone, philanthropy is important doing this year. A microloan foundation is matching our team members contributions, and through that through our team member contributions as well as our match, we have given two and 1/2 $1,000,000 to the communities during the course of the year. We have also supported several new initiatives related to stem education as well as basic human needs again in all the countries and sites where micro nasty members. And actually Micron Foundation has given $11 million during our fiscal year 2019 for supporting various causes toward basic human needs, as well as advancement of science, technology and generating and map. And, most importantly, microphone team members more white have contributed 165,000 hours in community giving, volunteering activities, and we are trying to continue to take our engagement with the community to the next level. I considered it very, very important that and our responsibility that is not only about producing best business results, but we need to help our communities and people in need get to the next level off betterment as well. And it's part of there's diversity and inclusion and equality is a very, very important initiative at the company as well. And we're making tremendous progress in that respect as well. That's >>a great story, Sanjay. Thanks. Um I know you're super busy. Get a bunch of customers to see you're an awesome CEO and doing a great job. Really appreciate you taking the time to come on the Cube. Thank you. Thank you >>for being here with you today. >>Fantastic. All right. Thank you for watching. Everybody will be right back with our next guest. Live from Micron inside. 2019. You're watching the Cube?

>>live from Boston, Massachusetts. It's the Q covering I. F s World Conference 2019. Brought to you by I. F. S. >>We're back at the Hynes Convention Center in Boston. This is a cube, the leader in live tech coverage. And this is our coverage of I f s World 2019 Matt Smith. This year. He's a global chief architect. Paul Dylan and I are happy to have you on Matt. Great >>pleasure to be here. Thanks very much. >>Filing. You're welcome. So business value engineering is a concept that you're a fan of on one that you've sort of promoted and evolved. What is business value? Engineering. >>So business value engineering is quite a common term in the industry, but here I affects it's a little different. Fundamentally, it's, ah, collaborative process that we use working with our customers on our partners to make sure that what we do with those customers delivers financial value to their business. So it's fundamentally about making sure what we deliver delivers value. >>So I wanna ask you a question about this because your philosophy is a company seems to be the Let the customer define value. Um, it's in their terms, not your terms, not trying to impose a value equation on them. At the same time, it's nice to be able to compare across companies or industries and firm level on DSO forth. So how do you reconcile that? Is it like balanced Scorecard is sort of pay you can tailor to yourself versus some kind of rigid methodology. How do you How do those two worlds meet in >>TV? Yes, so obviously, benchmarking across industry is really important. And there are lots of people that do that kind of work, and that's part of business value engineering. Fundamentally, it's about mutual collaboration. So it's not just about using the customers framework or that all their language is about agreeing the language. One of the challenges when you're trying to build a business relationship with with one or more parties is you have to have a common shared understanding, a common vision on a common value system so that when I say something to you, it means the same thing when you say it to me. And so part of that collaborative process requires that you worked together on business value, engineering facilitates that it's not just about producing a business case. It's really more about the process and steps that you go through to get to that business case that allows you to establish trust and understanding and clarity. >>How does this enter into the customer discussion? >>And so it enters as early as you can possibly make it. Answer rights? A. Right at the beginning, you asked the very first question, which is fundamentally, what are the business initiatives that you're trying to achieve with this potential change program? And then you have a deep discussion about what they mean. So you understand and they understand, and everybody really agrees firmly what we're trying to achieve before you get anywhere near solution. And it's really difficult as technical people. I've got a technical background to stop yourself from hearing a problem and going. I've got a solution for that on it puts that a more disciplined approach to make sure that you don't straight away go to solution to help. You really understand where you're going, how you're gonna get there and therefore what the financial benefits and metrics would be to do it. Who >>were >>the ideal stakeholders when you're doing a collaboration like this in terms of getting them involved in getting their >>implements. So you might expect the answer to be C level executives on Dove course. They're important from, ah, leadership in a direction perspective. But as it turns out from a human psychological behavior perspective, there are three personality types that are really, really suitable for this kind of engagement work that's focused around change. And if you find those three personality types and quite well understood types of people, they're the ones that tend to cause change. To happen more successfully doesn't mean there any more valuable than anybody else inside an organization, but the other right kinds of people to establish this sort of work with, and it's important you have the right number of those people in a change program. >>So change agents. So I would think like a PL manager here. She's controlling a big portion of the budget. Has thousands of people working for them would be important. Maybe not a sea level executive, but a line of business executive, the son of the field General. Could that be an example of a change agent? Not necessarily because they're trying to protect their turf, >>so not necessarily right When it comes to change, change is always hard in any company you've ever been in in all of our careers. Change is difficult, right? >>Wake up in the morning. >>Let's change. It s it's more about who were the people that lay the groundwork for that change that you follow. You listen to the influences. Now, of course, you'll have people that own the budget the financial controllers on Absolutely. They're important. Of course they are. But they may not be the personality type that causes change to happen. Business value engineering is about making sure you harness the right talent, the right skills, the right people at the right time. Thio help organizations realize the benefit off change. >>If you'll excuse me, this is not seem like a typical role for a software company to take on. Yeah, change management. What? How do you Why do you put yourself in that role? >>I think this is something that all software companies are gonna have to do. And you will see the subject of business value engineering in many software vendors. Now it's true. It's a fine line between being a business analyst and being a software vendor. they were a software provider. I think software providers that don't deliver the context on the value that they are trying to achieve with software they buy in the customers are poorer supplies because they're just trying to push technology on its fun. Technologists like myself enjoy the technology, and I'd buy technology all day long. But is it really the right thing to do? So I think it's about being morally right. You have to take the high ground and conduct that engagement in a way which in some cases, and this has certainly been true in my career, you do the business value work and you realize that you probably shouldn't do the project on. You have to have that that fortitude to say to the customer. This is actually not a great idea because the financial case doesn't support this. I think it is. Taking that moral high ground is a really important stance and software companies that do that generally those customers will come back to you in a future dark time when they've got a different problem. That perhaps does fit you. So I think it's about recognizing there's a both a short medium and a long term engagement with with with the customers that you have to maintain that >>in 2019. Given all the discussion on data digital transformation A. I cloud, I would think that data plays a crucial role in these discussions. So what role does data played? Companies understand the importance of data as it relates to the business value discussion. >>Absolutely. I think I think that data driven decision making is is pretty fundamental. A lot of people say the numbers don't lie. Maybe some statistics might be bent, but numbers don't really like, so you've got to be a capture numbers and make decisions based on those numbers. Eso One of the difficulties, though, is that for many, many years in many industries, we've been using very simple terminology and simple mathematical calculations to do these value calculations. Everybody's aware of Years ago, the software industry was awash with phrases like return on investment calculators, >>R o i N P V I R R. Even >>some of those numbers of valid right for >>a business case for sure, >>for sure, but just sticking with simple things like are always is not enough >>salad. If you treat the software as an asset. A zey expense? Essentially, >>Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But then it comes to the engagement's more than your software I like. I like Thio, I think, as a human being, the software is considerably less than half the game in any change program where you're trying to achieve value and the people they're human beings they're going to do with work are the ones that are going to generate the value. The software's a tool, and the years are very important tool. But it's a tool. So you have to think about how do you build teams that can collaborate around value, achieve the value, measure the value, capture that data but at the same time physically collaborate properly to do the work? >>So how have you apply this methodology for your customers? >>So we've done a number of things, so we've established practice inside. If s, we've made sure that every country has the capability to do business value engineering. We've hired some specialists, people who do this for a living. Andi, we are working with lots and lots of customers now on this as a Maur methodical disciplines approach. But we've also recognized that we needed to measure our existing customers benefits. So what you are existing customer base achieved with our software. So we commissioned Ah, pretty big and important study. And that was anonymous. We weren't involved other than inviting the company to go and do this work on, then unleashing them on our customer base for six months across all industries, all products on asking them to go and find out and measure what our customers really achieve with the software. >>So how was that anonymous? How it was in that you weren't doing the survey. >>We weren't doing the survey and any, um, numbers that came back. Where were anonymous? Dhe. So we couldn't say. Oh, it was this company that gave this feedback with these numbers. So it gave them a sense of freedom to be other express and share that data. >>And so you were specifically asking about the business impact of of I f s software throughout some kind of life cycle, like a before and an after? Yes, Exactly. Isn't it to be or what happened? Okay, so what'd you find >>so as a couple of surprises in the results, actually eso firstly >>tell us who did the study or is that >>yes, So the study. That's a good question, because the the choices are many. There are lots of analyst firms out there that you could use A ll do this sort of work and do it very well. The team that I worked with, we would personally had a previous relationship with I. D. C. Now we really liked I. D. C. And I've done some of this work previously with I D. C. Because they arm or they're an analyst. That has more statisticians as well as analysts. So they take a really very methodical mathematical approach. A scientist. I very much appreciated that. So we we picked them to do this work, and they take it really very, very seriously. And there were a lot of strict processes they have for how we are allowed to engage with them and talk to them during this process. On that rigor, I think, allows us to be comfortable with the numbers and for our customers to be comfortable with the numbers that they obtain because of this anonymity and the rigor they put behind. That's why we picked I. D. C. That work in terms of what we found out where they found on we now just see the report on our customers can go and see this report. We published it last week. So you're just gonna free download and look at the material from I. D. C. The first thing that was interesting about the study. It was human productivity focused. So not things like, how much inventory you hold in supply chain on. Was it reduced? It was more about how did the workers get on? What kind of mistakes did I made? L. A. Faster doing their work and more successful. And they looked at lots of different categories on the returns. The improvements ranged from just a 10% improvement. So not not a huge improvement all the way up to a 94% improvement in productivity. Human productivity. If you averaged it all out, it worked out just shy of of 19% 18 and a bit percent productivity improvement across all of the different teams from the finance function, the supply chain function, human resource functions, sales team, productivity function. So we saw a range. What was good was it pretty much didn't matter. Which category of customer or size of customer or industry. They all saw pretty similar productivity improvements, which means we can extrapolate the numbers. The second thing we saw, which was a surprise, a very pleasant surprise was that usually when you see these kinds of benefits studies, most of the value is in cost. Saving on only cost saving tends to be where asset management resource planning service management happens. Just under half of the value that the I. D. C study showed was net new revenue. The customers were finding that nearly half of the benefit was new money coming to the company. Top Line benefit. That's a little unusual. >>So let me pick. Probe Adept so productivity When I when you're saying productivity, I think revenue per employee has a simple list measure of productivity. But then you're saying there was incremental revenue, a swell independent. It first of all is is revenue per employee the right measure? Or was it more like Do we think's faster or sort of more generic measurements and specific to a task? Or was it kind of boil down to a revenue per employee? And and then how did that relate to the the incremental revenue. >>Yeah, so it was done by function by by team type. So if you look to finance and auditing and human resources and supply chain and so on so that the metrics on the you'll see in the white paper are specific to the team's specifically that role specific to that, >>right, You're not really big in insurance, but a claims adjuster could, you know, get more claims done exactly, or something like >>exactly example. So you'd find, for example, one of the statistics was around filled service engineering on how many jobs per day they couldn't do. It was reasonably specific, >>and they would attribute that directly to your software Direct. Now, as a result of installing I f s, how much would you increase your etcetera per day? >>That's why it took them six months to do the study. I mean, this is quite an in depth piece on >>how many customers that the interview. >>And so it was a cross on dhe. We gave them a challenge to do this. So it was a set of about 17 fairly large customers, which sounds like a small time. >>No, no, no, >>no. But when you do these kinds of studies, >>that's a totally legitimate number. And then thes air in depth surveys. Yeah, so it's not like it's not trivial. And and as well, revenue increases specific, too. The software. So that would have been what, like cohorts sales or service, you know, follow on sales things of that nature. >>Absolutely. And that's why we were so delighted with the report when it came back, because it was it was a really nice pleasant finding. So most companies that all the companies reported the revenue increase, but some are bigger than others. On average, it was a pretty sizable chunk, nearly half of all of the benefit. Um, and when we asked, I D C well, can you give us some kind of glimpse as to why we see such a large chunk of improved revenue? I. D. C. Said, Well, you're improving the productivity of the sales teams so they can quote faster. There's more accuracy and those quotes. The service quality is improved the speed and to get a product to market is faster, so their ability to respond to bids and tenders is better. So is actually a combination of lots of things speed error quality improvements that led to their ability to bid and win faster and better business net revenue. >>Did you attempt Thio factor in less tangible factors, such as customer satisfaction, that promoter score perceived value, customer perceived value. >>So the folk note that the focus of the study was human productivity on. And it's something that I d. C do particularly well on that that's what we gave them a target. Obviously, when we doing business value engineering, you then have to take way more than just that. Things like the benchmark dated find from a study like I. D. C. Have conducted where you take into account those soft factors on other factors outside of human productivity. So value engineering is way more than just human productivity, which is why it's an engagement model. It's something you have to do mutually together. That kind of transparency, really, is what most customers are now demanding. You know, I'm not buying technology unless I know what business outcome I'm going to obtain from this. It's just the way of the world these days. >>It could take away that so it's not just your software's not just operational impact in nature. It's more strategic. It has productivity impact, revenue impacts and obviously cost savings as well. Congratulations. That's good. How did we get this study >>out of people? You said customers can download it. Can anybody down? >>Anybody can download this U S So we've published it on our website. It's very easy to find on it. Sze freely available. We obviously have to comply with the I. D. C's. They owned the rights for the report because it was their material, but we've oversee purchased the rights to the other, distribute that material. We think it's super valuable for our customers. >>What a business model >>and super well, you know, And and if I was to write business case for it, I'd be delighted with the work that was done and I'd be happy with the outcome on. I'm sure our customers will make use of the information to be a benchmark, their own work and also hold my effects on our partners to account to help build business cases. >>Well, I you know, I know it's anonymous ized anonymous to protect the customer, but I bet you some of the customers would be willing to go public with some of this information. So hit him up. Bring him on the cube, you know, well distributed for free. If you want to charge for them. Reprint rights. Great to have you on. Thank >>you. Thank you. >>All right. Thank you for watching Paul Gill and I will be back with our next guest to wrap up I f s World 2019. You're watching the Cube from Boston?

>> live from Las Vegas. It's the queue covering del Technologies. World twenty nineteen, brought to you by Del Technologies and its ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back. Everyone's cubes. Live coverage. Day three wrap up of Del Technologies World twenty nineteen Java is Dave a lot. There's too many men on set one. We get set to over there blue set, White said. We got a lot of content. It's been a cube can, in guise of a canon of content firing into the digital sphere. Great gas. We had all the senior executive players Tech athletes. Adele Technology World. Michael Dell, Tom Sweet, Marius Haas, Howard Ally As we've had Pat Kelsey, rco v M were on the key partner in the family. They're of del technology world and we had the clients guys on who do alien where, as well as the laptops and the power machines. Um, we've had the power edge guys on. We talked about Hollywood. It's been a great run, but Dave, it's been ten years Stew. Remember, the first cube event we ever went to was DMC World in Boston. The chowder there he had and that was it wasn't slogan of of the show turning to the private cloud. Yeah, I think that was this Logan cheering to the private cloud that was twenty ten. >> Well, in twenty ten, it was Cloud Cloud Cloud Cloud Cloud twenty nineteen. It's all cloud now. That difference is back then it was like fake cloud and made up cloud and really was no substance to it. We really started to see stew, especially something that we've been talking about for years, which is substantially mimicking the public cloud on Prem. Now I know there are those who would say No, no, no, no, no. And Jessie. Probably in one of those that's not cloud. So there's still that dichotomy is a cloud. >> Well, Dave, if I could jump in on that one of the things that's really interesting is when Veum, where made that partnership with a ws It was the ripple through this ecosystem. Oh, what's that mean for Del you know Veum, wherein Del not working together Well, they set the model and they started rolling out bm where, and they took the learnings that they had. And they're bringing that data center as a service down to the Dell environment. So it's funny I always we always here, you know, eight of us, They're learning from their partners in there listening and everything like that. Well, you know, Dylan Veum where they've been listening, they've been learning to in this, and it brings into a little bit of equilibrium for me, that partnership and right, David, you said, you know that you could be that cloud washing discussion. And today it's, you know, we're talking about stacks that live in eight of us and Google and Microsoft. And now, in, you know, my hosted or service lighter or, you know, my own data center. If that makes sense, >> I mean, if you want to just simplify the high order bit, Dave Cloud. It's simply this Amazon's trying to be enterprised everyone, the enterprise, trying to claw Amazon, right? And so what? The what that basically means is it's all cloud. It's all a distributed computer system. OK, Scott McNealy had it right. The network is the computer. If you look at what's going on here, the traditional enterprise of vendors over decades of business model and technology, you know, had full stack solutions from mainframe many computers to PC the local area networking all cobble together wires it up creates applications, services. All that is completely being decimated by a new way to roll out storage, computing and networking is the same stuff. It's just being configured differently. Throw on massive computer power with Cloud and Moore's Law and Data and A. I U have a changing of the the architecture. But the end of the day the cloud is operating model of distributed computing. If you look at all the theories and pieces of computer science do and networking, all those paradigms are actually playing out in in the clouds. Everything from a IIE. In the eighties and nineties you got distributed networking and computing, but it's all one big computer. And Michael Dell, who was the master of the computer industry building PCs, looks at this. Probably leg. It's one big computer. You got a processor and subsystems. So you know this is what's interesting. Amazon has done that, and if they try to be like the enterprise, like the old way, they could fall into that trap. So if the enterprise stays in the enterprise, they know they're not going out. So I think it's interesting that I see the enterprise trying to like Amazon Amazon trying to get a price. So at the end of the day, whoever could build that system that's scalable the way I think Dell's doing, it's great. I was only scaleable using data for special. So it's a distributed computer. That's all that's going on in the world right now, and it's changing everything. Open source software is there. All that makes it completely different, and it's a huge opportunity. Whoever can crack the code on this, it's in the trillions and trillions of dollars. Total adjustable market >> well, in twenty ten we said that way, noted the gap. There's still a gap between what Amazon could do and what the on Prem guys Khun Dio, we'd argue, is a five years is seven years, maybe ten years, whatever it is. But at the time we said, if you recall, lookit, they got to close the gap. It's got to be good enough for I t to buy into it like we're starting to see that. But my view, it's still not cloud. It doesn't have to scale a cloud, doesn't have the economics cloud. When you peel the onion, it doesn't certainly doesn't have the SAS model and the consumption model of cloud nowhere close yet. Well, and you know, >> here's the drumbeat of innovation that we see from the public cloud. You know where we hit the shot to show this week, the public have allowed providers how many announcements that they probably had. Sure, there was a mega launch of announcements here, but the public lives just that regular cadence of their, you know, Public Cloud. See a CD. We're not quite there yet in this kind of environment, it's still what Amazon would say is. You put this in an environment and it's kind of frozen. Well, it's thought some, and it's now we can get data set. A service consumption model is something we can go. We're shifting in that model. It's easier to update things, but you know, how do I get access to the new features? But we're seeing that blurring of the line. I could start moving services that hybrid nature of the environment. We've talked a few times. We've been digging into that hybrid cloud taxonomy and some of the services to span because it's not public or private. It's now truly that hybrid and multi environment and customers are going to live in. And all of >> the questions Jonah's is good enough to hold serve >> well. I think the reality is is that you go back to twenty ten, the jury in the private cloud and it's enterprises almost ten years to figure out that it's real. And I think in that time frame Amazon is absolutely leveled. Everybody, we call that the tsunami. Microsoft quickly figures out that they got to get Cloud. They come in there, got a fast followers. Second, Google's trying to retool Oracle. I think Mr Bo completely get Ali Baba and IBM in there, so you got the whole cloud game happening. The problem of the enterprises is that there's no growth in terms of old school enterprise other than re consolidate in position for Cloud. My question to you guys is, Is there going to be true? True growth in the classic enterprise business or, well, all this SAS run on clouds. So, yes, if it's multi cloud or even hybrid for the reasons they talk about, that's not a lot of growth compared to what the cloud can offer. So again, I still haven't seen Dave the visibility in my mind that on premises growth is going to be massive compared to cloud. I mean, I think cloud is where Sassen lives. I think that's where the scale lives we have. How much scale can you do with consolidation? We >> are in a prolonged bull market that that started in twenty ten, and it's kind of hunger. In the tenth year of a of a decade of bull market, the enterprise market is cyclical, and it's, you know, at some point you're going to start to see a slowdown cloud. I mean, it's just a tiny little portion of the market is going to continue to gain share cloud can grow in a downturn. The no >> tell Motel pointed out on this, Michael Dell pointed out on the Cubans, as as those lieutenants, the is the consolidation of it is just that is a retooling to be cloud ready operationally. That's where hybrid comes in. So I think that realization has kicked in. But as enterprises aren't like, they're not like Google and Facebook. They're not really that fast, so So they've got to kind of get their act together on premises. That's why I think In the short term, this consolidation and new revitalisation is happening because they're retooling to be cloud ready. That is absolutely happen. But to say that's the massive growth studio >> now looked. It is. Dave pointed out that the way that there is more than the market growth is by gaining market share Share share are areas where Dell and Emcee didn't have large environment. You know, I spent ten years of DMC. I was a networking. I was mostly storage networking, some land connectivity for replication like srd Evan, like today at this show, I talked a lot of the telco people talk to the service of idle talk where the sd whan deny sirrah some of these pieces, they're really starting to do networking. That's the area where that software defined not s the end, but the only in partnership with cos like Big Switch. They're getting into that market, and they have such small market share their that there's huge up uplift to be able to dig into the giant. >> Okay, couple questions. What percent of Dell's ninety one billion today is multi cloud revenue. Great question. Okay, one percent. I mean, very small. Okay. Very small hero. Okay? And is that multi cloud revenue all incremental growth isat going to cannibalize the existing base? These? Well, these are the fundamentals weighs six local market that I'm talking to >> get into this. You led the defense of conversations. We had Tom Speed on the CFO and he nailed us. He said There's multiple levers to shareholder growth. Pay down the debt check. He's got to do that. You love that conversation. Margin expansion. Get the margins up. Use the client business to cover costs. As you said, increased go to market efficiency and leverage. The supply chain that's like their core >> fetrow of cash. And that all >> these. The one thing he said that was mind blowing to me is that no one gets the valuation of how valuable Del Technologies is. They're throwing off close to seven billion dollars in free cash flow free cash flow. Okay, so you can talk margin expansion all you want. That's great, but there got this huge cash flow coming in. You can't go out of business worth winning if you don't run out of cash >> in the market. When the market is good, these guys are it is good a position is anybody, and I would argue better position than anybody. The question on the table that I'm asking is, how long can it last? And if and when the market turns down and markets always cyclical we like again. We're in the tenth year of a bull market. I mean, it's someone >> unprecedented gel can use the war chest of the free cash flow check on these levers that they're talking about here, they're gonna have the leverage to go in during the downturn and then be the cost optimizer for great for customers. So right now, they're gonna be taking their medicine, creating this one common operating environment, which they have an advantage because they have all the puzzle pieces. You A Packer Enterprises doesn't have the gaping holes in the end to end. They can't address us, >> So that is a really good point that you're making now. So then the next question is okay. If and when the downturn turn comes, who's going to take advantage of it, who's going to come out stronger? >> I think Amazon is going to be continued to dominate, and as long as they don't fall into the enterprise trap of trying to be too enterprising, continue to operate their way for enterprises. I think jazz. He's got that covered. I think DEL Technologies is perfectly positioned toe leverage, the cash flow and the thing to do that. I think Cisco's got a great opportunity, and I think that's something that you know. You don't hear a lot of talk about the M where Cisco war happening. But Cisco has a network. They have a developer ecosystem just starting to get revitalized. That's an opportunity. So >> I got thoughts on Cisco, too. But one of things I want to say about Del being able to come out of that stronger. I keep saying I've said this a number of times and asked a lot of questions this week is the PC business is vital for Del. It's almost half the company's revenue. Maybe not quite, but it it's where the company started it. It sucks up a lot of corporate overhead. >> If Hewlett Packard did not spin out HP HP, they would be in the game. I think spinning that out was a huge mistake. I wrote about a publicly took a lot of heat for it, but you know I try to go along with the HPD focus. Del has proven bigger is better. HP has proven that smaller is not as leverage. And if it had the PC that bee have the mojo in gaming had the mojo in the edge, and Dale's got all the leverage to cross pollinate the front end and edge into the back and common cloud operate environment that is going to be an advantage. And that's going to something that will see Well, let me let me >> let me counter what you just said. I agree. You know this this minute. But the autonomy was the big mistake. Once hp autonomy, you know what Meg did was almost a fatal complete. They never should've bought autonomy >> makers. Levi Protector he was. So he was there. >> But she inherited that bag of rocks. And then what you gonna do with it? Okay, so that's why they had to spend out and did create shareholder value. If they had not purchased autonomy, then he would return much better shape, not to split it up. And they would be a much stronger competitor. >> And I share holder Pop. They had a pop on value. People made some cash with long game. I think that >> going toe peon base actually done pretty well for a first year holding a standalone PC company. So, but again, I think Del. With that leverage, assuming pieces, it's going to be really interesting. I don't know much about that market. You were loving that PC conversation, but the whole, you know, the new game or markets and and the new wayto work throwing an edge in there, I don't know is ej PC and edges that >> so the peanut butter. And so the big thing that Michael get the big thing, Michael Dell said on the Cube was We're not a conglomerate were an integrated company. And when you have an integrated company like this, with the tech the tech landscape shifting to their advantage, you have the ability to cross subsidize. So strategy game. Matt Baker was here we'd be talking about OK, I can cross subsidize margin. You've brought it up on the client side. Smaller margins, but it pays a lot of the corporate overhead. Absolutely. Then you got higher margin GMC business was, you know, those margins that's contributing. And so when you have this new configuration. You can cross, subsidize and move and shift, so I think that's a great advantage. I think that's undervalued in the market place. And I think, you know, I think Del stock price is, well, undervalue. Point out the numbers they got VM wear and their question is, What what point is? VM where blink and go All in on del technology stew. Orcas Remember that Gus was gonna partner. You don't think the phone was ringing off the hook in Palo Alto from their parties? What? What's this as your deal? So Vienna. There's gotta be the neutral party. Big problem. The opportunity. >> Well, look, if I'm a traditional historical partner of'Em are, it's not the Azure announcement that has me a little bit concerned because all of them partner with Microsoft to it is how tightly combined. Del and Veum, where are the emcee, always kept them in arms like now they're in the same. It's like Dave. They're blending it. It's like, you know Del, from a market cap standpoint, gets fifty cents on the dollar. VM wears a software company, and they get their multiples. Del is not a software company, but VM where well, people are. Well, if we can win that a little bit, maybe we could get that. >> Marty still Isn't it splendid? No, no, I think the strategy is absolutely right on. You have to go hard with VM wear and use it as a competitive weapon. But, Stuart, your point fifty cents and all, it's actually much worse than that. I mean the numbers. If you take out of'Em, wears the VM wear ownership, you take out the core debt and you look at the market value you're left with, like a billion dollars. Cordell is undervalued. Cordell is worth more than a billion or two billion dollars. Okay, so it's a really cheap way to buy Veum. Where Right that the Tom Sweet nailed this, he said. You know, basically, these company those the streets not used to tech companies having such big debt. But to your point, John, they're throwing off cash. So this company is undervalued, in my view. Now there's some risks associated with that, and that's why the investors of penalizing them for that debt there, penalizing him from Michael's ownership structure. You know, that's what this is, but >> a lack of understanding in my opinion. I think I think you're right. I just think they don't understand. Look at Dale and they think G You don't look a day Ellen Think distributed computing system with software, fill in those gaps and all that extra ten expansion. It's legit. I think they could go after new market opportunities as as a twos to us as the client business. I mean mere trade ins and just that's massive trillions of dollars. It's, I think I think that is huge. But I'm >> a bull. I'm a bull on the value of the company. I know >> guys most important developments. Del technology world. What's the big story that you think is coming out of the show here? >> Well, it's definitely, you know, the VM wear on del I mean, that is the big story, and it's to your point. It's Del basically saying we're going to integrate this. We're going to hard, we're going to go hard and you know Veum wear on Dell is a preferred solution. No doubt that is top for Dell and PacBell Singer said it. Veum wearing eight of us is the first and preferred solution. Those are the two primary vectors. They're going to drive hard and then Oh, yeah, we'Ll listen to customers Whatever else you want Google as you're fine, we're there. But those two vectors, they're going to Dr David >> build on that because we saw the, um we're building out of multi cloud strategy and what we have today is Del is now putting themselves in there as a first class citizen. Before it was like, Oh, we're doing VX rail and Anna sex and, you know, we'LL integrate all these pieces there, but infrastructure, infrastructure, infrastructure now it is. It is multi cloud. We want to see that the big table, >> right, Jeff, Jeff Clarke said, Why are you doing both? Let's just one strategy, one company. It's all one Cash registers that >> saying those heard that before. I think the biggest story to me is something that we've been seeing in the Cuban laud, you know, been Mom. This rant horizontally scaleable operating environment is the land grab and then vertically integrate with data into applications that allow each vertical industry leverage data for the kind of intimate, personalized experiences for user experiences in each industry. With oil and gas public sector, each one has got their own experiences that are unique. Data drives that, but the horizontal and tow an operating model when it's on premises hybrid or multi cloud is a huge land grab. And I think that is a major strategic win for Dell, and I think, as if no one challenges them on this. Dave, if HP doesn't go on, emanate change. If H h p e does not do it em in a complete changeover from strategy and pulling, filling their end to end, I think that going to be really hurting I think there's gonna be a tell sign and we'LL see, See who reacts and challenges Del on this in ten. And I think if they can pull it off without being contested, >> the only thing I would say that the only thing I would say that Jonah's you know, HP, you know very well I mean, they got a lot of loyal customers and is a huge market out there. So it's >> Steve. Look at economic. The economics are shifting in the new world. New use cases, new step function of user experiences. This is this is going to be new user experiences at new economic price points that's a business model. Innovation, loyal customers that's hard to sustain. They'Ll keep some clutching and grabbing, but everyone will move to the better mousetrap in the scenario. So the combination of that stability with software it's just this as a big market. >> So John twenty ten Little Table Back Corner, you know of'em See Dylan Blogger World double set. Beautiful says theatre of present lot of exchange and industry. But the partnership in support of this ecosystem. It's something that helped us along the way. >> You know, when we started doing this, Jeff came on board. The team has been amazing. We have been growing up and getting better every show. Small, incremental improvements here and there has been an amazing production, Amazing team all around us. But the support of the communities do this is has been a co creation project from day one. We love having this conversation's with smart people. Tech athletes make it unique. Make it organic, let the page stuff on on the other literature pieces go well. But here it's about conversations for four and with the community, and I think the community sponsorship has been part of funding mohr of it. You're seeing more cubes soon will be four sets of eight of US four sets of V M World four sets here. Global Partners sets I'm used to What have we missed? >> Yeah, it's phenomenal. You know, we're at a unique time in the industry and honored to be able to help documented with the two of you in the whole team. >> Dave, How it Elias sitting there giving him some kind of a victory lap because we've been doing this for ten years. He's been the one of the co captains of the integration. He says. There's a lot of credit. >> Yeah, Howard has had an amazing career. I I met him like literally decades ago, and he has always taken on the really hard jobs. I mean, that's I think, part of his secret success, because it's like he took on the integration he took on the services business at at AMC U members to when Joe did you say we're a product company? No services company. I was like, Give me services. Take it. >> It's been on the Cube ten years. Dave. He was. He was John away. He was on fire this week. I thought bad. Kelsey was phenomenal. >> Yeah, he's an amazing guest. Tom Tom Suite, You know, very strong moments. >> What's your favorite Cuban? I'LL never forget. Joe Tucci had my little camera out film and Joe Tucci, Anna. One of the sessions is some commentary in the hallway. >> Well, that was twenty ten, one of twenty eleven, I think one of my favorite twenty ten moments I go back to the first time we did. The cue was when you asked Joe Tucci, you know why a storage sexy. Remember that? >> A He never came on >> again. Ah, but that was a mean. If you're right, that was a cube mean all for the next couple of years. Remember, Tom Georges, we have because I'm not touching. That was >> so remember when we were critical of hybrid clouds like twenty, twelve, twenty, thirteen I go, Pat is a hybrid cloud, a halfway house to the final destination of public loud. He goes to a halfway house, three interviews. This was like the whole crowd was like, what just happened? Still favorite moment. >> Oh, gosh is a mean so money here, John. As you said, just such a community, love. You know, the people that we've had on for ten years and then, you know, took us, you know, three or four years to before we had Michael Dell on. Now he's a regular on our program with luminaries we've had on, you know, but yeah, I mean, twenty ten, you know, it's actually my last week working for him. See? So, Dave, thanks for popping me out. It's been a fun ride, and yeah, I mean, it's amazing to be able to talk to this whole community. >> Favorite moment was when we were at eighty bucks our first show. We're like, We still like hell on this. James Hamilton, Andy Jazzy Come on up, Very small show. Now it's a monster, David The Cube has had some good luck. Well, we've been on the right waves, and a lot of a lot of companies have sold their companies. Been part of Q comes when public Unicorns New Channel came on early on. No one understood that company. >> What I'm thrilled about to Jonah's were now a decade, and we're documenting a lot of the big waves. One of one of the most memorable moments for me was when you called me up. That said, Hey, we're doing a dupe world in New York. I got on a plane and went out. I landed in, like, two. Thirty in the morning. You met me. We did to dupe World. Nobody knew what to do was back then it became, like, the hottest thing going. Now nobody talks about her dupe. So we're seeing these waves and the Cube was able to document them. It's really >> a pleasure. The Cube can and we got the Cube studios sooner with cubes Stories with Cube Network too. Cue all the time, guys. Thanks. It's been a pleasure doing business with you here. Del Technologies shot out the letter. Chuck on the team. Sonia. Gabe. Everyone else, Guys. Great job. Excellent set. Good show. Closing down. Del Technologies rose two cubes coverage. Thanks for watching

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas, it's the Cube. Covering Interconnect 2017. Brought to you by IBM. >> OK, welcome back everyone. We're here live in Las Vegas. I'm wearing the Blockchain Revolution hat right here. Of course, I'm John Furrier with the Cube, and my co host Dave Vellante, we're excited to have celebrity author, thought leader, futurist and fill in the blank on the title Don Tapscott, who's the author of the Blockchain Revolution. Legend in the industry, thought leader, you and your son a compelling new book, but you've been on the fringe of all the game changing technologies going back with social media, we've been following your work, it's been great. Now we're at the front range of Blockchain, OK? Now it's becoming pretty clear to some of the innovators like IBM and others that it's not about Bitcoin alone, it's about the Blockchain Revolution, the Blockchain itself. Welcome to the Cube and what's going on? What is Blockchain? (laughing) >> Well, it's great to hear, be here. The one thing you didn't mention is I play keyboards in a rock band. So. >> The most interesting man on the Cube right now. >> We used to do a concert every year whether our public demanded it or not, but no, we're a charity event. We've raised a few million dollars for good causes. Anyway. I think, along with my son Alex, we figured this out a couple of years ago that this is the second era of the internet. For the first few decades, we've had the internet of information. And if I send you some information, PDF, PowerPoint, E-mail, even with the website, I keep the original. I'm sending you a copy. That doesn't work so great for assets. Like money, stocks, bonds. Identities, votes. Music, art. Loyalty points. If I send you $100, it's really important I don't still have the money, and I can't send it to you. So this has been called the double spend problem by cryptographers for a long time. And Blockchain solves this problem. We've had the internet of information, now we're getting the internet of value. Where anything of value, from money to votes to music can be exchanged peer to peer. And where we can transact, keep records, and trust each other without powerful intermediaries. Now that doesn't mean intermediaries are going to go away, but they're going to have to embrace this technology or they will be toast. >> I mean, this is clear, you see the distributive computing paradigm, I mean, we're all network guys and by training, you can follow this revolution. But now when you start thinking about trust and value and you talk about digitizing the world. So, if you go to digital transformation, that's the thesis, that we're in this digital transformation, you're digitizing money, you're digitizing transactions. Explain more on the value piece because now if everything's going digital, there now needs to be a new model around how to handle the transactions at scale, and with security problems, hackers. >> Yeah, OK. Well that gets to a couple of really good points. First of all, what is digital? You know, you think, "Well, I tap my card at Starbucks "and bits go through all these networks and different "companies with different computer systems and three "days later a settlement occurs." But that's actually a bunch of messages. It's not money. Money, cash, is a bare instrument. If you have cash in your pocket, you are the bearer of that instrument, which means that you own it. And what we're talking about is something very different here, of creating digital cash. That's stored on a global ledger. So, rather than there being a three day settlement period, there's no settlement period because you're just making a change in the database. And this is a very revolutionary concept. And as for security, I mean, think about, I don't know, you're right, it's not about Bitcoin. But if we took the case of the Bitcoin Blockchain. If I wanted to hack that, I'd have to hack that 10 minute block that has all those transactions, which is linked to the previous block and the previous block, I'd have to hack the entire history of commerce on that Blockchain, not just on one computer, but simultaneously across millions of computers, all using the highest level of cryptography, while the most powerful computing resource in the world, the minors are watching me to make sure I don't mess around. Now, I won't say it's impossible, just like I suppose it's not impossible to take a Chicken McNugget and turn it back into a chicken, but it's really hard to do. A lot, and so these systems are way more secure than our current systems. >> Yes, it fundamentally impossible, and you don't have a third party verification system that's also an exposure area, it's globally distributed, right, so let's go back to what is Blockchain? What's the Blockchain 101? >> Well, Blockchain is a distributed ledger where anything of value, from money to votes, and music can be stored, transacted, managed, in a secure and confidential way, and where trust between parties is established, not by a big intermediary, but by cryptography, by collaboration, and some clever code. >> So, talk about the premise of the book. Sort of why you wrote it and what the fundamental premise is. >> Well, three years ago, three years and five weeks ago, at a father son ski trip, over a large piece of beef, and a very nice bottle of wine, Alex and I started thinking about what all this means. And we decided to work together. And he wrote a very cogent paper about how this new ecosystem could govern itself and my publisher got wind of it and said, "That sounds like a book." So we launched a dozen projects, couple of years ago, on how this technology changes, not just financial services, how it changes the corporation and the deep structure and architecture of the firm. How it changes every industry. How it changes government. Democracy, there's an opportunity to end the crisis of legitimacy of our democratic institutions. But what it means for culture and so on. And then we wrote the book. And it was published in May 10th last year, it's been a big best seller, it's the best selling book on Blockchain. It's actually the only real book on Blockchain. In some countries it was ridiculous. For a while, in Canada, it was competing with Harry Potter and an adult coloring book, as the best selling book in the country. >> That's the state of our culture right there. (laughing) >> What is an adult coloring book, anyway? (laughing) >> That's the million dollar question right there. >> There are a lot of geeky books on Blockchain, but this-- >> Well, actually, there aren't, there are books on crypto currency, on Bitcoin. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> And but the only real book on Blockchain is Blockchain Revolution. >> So, but you're really focusing on the business impact, organizational impact, even societal impact, so explain the premise. >> Well, where do we start? Let's start with the firm. Corporation, foundation of capitalism, based on double entry accounting. That's what enabled capitalism. Well, with Blockchain, you get a third entry onto the ledger, so you have triple entry accounting, so you don't need, say, audits. Every year, because there's an annual audit. That's just the beginning. Because the reason that we have firms, according to the Nobel Prize winning economist Ronald Coase, is that the transaction costs in an open market, like the cost of search, finding all the right people and information, the cost of contracting, for every little activity we're contract prohibitive. The cost of coordination, getting all these people to work together, didn't know each other. The cost of establishing trust, all of that in an open market is prohibitive, so we bring that inside the boundaries of a firm. Well, Blockchain will devastate those transaction costs. So we're talking about a fundamental change in how we orchestrate capability, in our economy, to innovate, to create goods and services. And for that matter, to create public value. So this is not some interesting little technology. This is the second era of the internet. I think it's going to be bigger than the first era was. >> So the internet, I mean, the value creation side. So let's take that additional asset side. So assume everything's digitized, got IOTs out there, industrial IOT, wearables, smart cars, smart cities, smart everything, but now you've got to create value as a firm, so let's roll that forward, we have the now somewhat frictionless transactional environment in an open market, how do firms create value out of those digital assets? >> Well, they'll create value in some ways that are radically different than today. So let me give you an example. Who are the big digital value disrupters today? Well, you can start with the so called sharing economy. You know, Uber, Airbnb, Lyft. >> The Cube. >> Sorry? >> The Cube. (laughing) We're disrupting the world right now. >> Well, you're actually not a sharing economy company in the sense that I think. >> In the traditional sense. >> Actually, I don't think they are, either. I mean, the reason that Uber's successful is precisely because it doesn't share. It's a service aggregator. So, why do you need a $70,000,000,000 corporation to do what Uber does? It could be done by a distributed ledger with some smart contracts and autonomous agents. Everything that the corporation does could be done by software. Airbnb. You know, how about, we'll call it B Airbnb, Blockchain Airbnb. So, you go onto your mobile device, and you're looking for a place, and you're going to be in Vegas, and all the hotels are booked because of IBM, and then you find a place, you book it, and then you show up, you turn your key that starts a smart contract payment to the owner of the apartment or the room, and you check out, you turn your key, it's closed. The software has a payment system built into it. So the renter of the room gets paid. You enter a five star on your device. And that's immutable, and it's a five star rating on a Blockchain. Everything that Airbnb as a company does could actually be done by this software. So, Bob Dylan, there's something going on here and you don't know what it is, I mean, people are all locked in an old paradigm about what's disruption. Get ready for this. >> So what's the impact, I mean, not the impact, what's the inhibitor, so, obviously, any new technology you see all the naysayers, so obviously this is a great vision, what's going to be the impediment? >> Well, they are all kinds of impediments and inhibitors, and there are all kinds of ways that this can get messed up. A big one is that we're overcoming now is that people think, well this is about Bitcoin, well, it's not. The real pony here is the underlying technology of Blockchain, and that's the biggest innovation in computer science in a generation, I think. But also, you know, I wrote this 1992 in Paradigm Shift, I said, when you get a new paradigm, it's a new mental model, and these things cause dislocation and disruption and uncertainty, and they're nearly always received with coolness. I mean, you guys know what it's like to be received with coolness as you introduce a new idea as do I, going back to the '70s. But, and vested interests fight against change. And leaders of old paradigms have great difficulties embracing the new. So you think about a company like Western Union that can charge 10% for remittances that take four to seven days. Well, with new tools, they don't take four to seven days, they take minutes, and they charge, based on Blockchain, they charge a point and a half. So, it's the old-- >> The inhibitors, they got to get their solutions out there so that they could go after and eat some of the lunch of the older guys. >> Well, they have to eat their own lunch, that's-- >> Western Union could be disrupted by a new entrant, right? So you got a new entrant coming in, they got to cannibalize themselves-- >> And at that point, it tips, there are enough disruptive entrants, right? >> So, it's all those inhibitors to change and for the IT people that are at this event, this is an exciting opportunity, but you do need to learn a new kind of knowledge base to function in this distributed ledger environment. You need to learn about hyper ledger, for starters, because that's the real enterprise platform. >> All right, so folks watching, like my son who helps us out sometimes as well, you have a father son relationship, which is super inspirational. He's, say he wants to get involved in Blockchain. He wants to jump right in, he's kind of a hacker type, what does he do? How does he get involved? Obviously read the book, Blockchain Revolution, get the big picture. Is there other things you'd advise? >> Well, buying the book in massive volume is always a good first step, no. Seriously. Well, one thing I always say to people is personal use is a precondition for any kind of comprehension. So just go get yourself a wallet for some crypto currency and download it and you'll learn all about public key encryption and so on. But I think in a company there are a number of things that managers need to do. Need to start doing pilots, sandboxes, developing and understanding use cases, and our new Blockchain research institute is going to be a big help in that. But also, for an IT person, is your son an IT guy or he's more an entrepreneur? >> No, he's 21 years old. >> He's 21. >> He doesn't know anything about IT. >> He's a computer science guy. >> He's born in the cloud. IT, can't spell IT. >> Well. (laughing) >> IT's for old guys like us. (laughing) >> We're telling him what he should do, he should be here telling us what we should do. >> John: That's why we hired him, he's a little guinea pig. >> Digital natives, you know, we're digital immigrants, we had to learn the language. But, for the IT people, it's all about not just experimenting, but about moving towards operational systems and about architecture. Because our architectures are based on traditional computing environments and this is something from Paradigm Shift, you remember, I interviewed Max Hopper who invented the Sabre Reservation System for American Airlines, and he says, "The big problem, Don, "is that if I don't have a target architecture, "every time I spend a dollar, I'm building up my legacy "and making it worse by investing in IT." And so that's where I came up with this formulation, yeah, God may have created the world in six days, but he didn't have an installed base to start with. (laughing) So, what we need to do is to start to think about architectures that embrace Blockchain. And this is an historic new opportunity for anybody who cares about IT. >> Is the disruptive enabler for Blockchain the fact that we're now fully connected as a society, or is it something else that we don't see? What's your view on, what's the real wealth creating disruptive enabler? >> Well, you can sense that the rate of change is a lot faster for the second generation than the first. 1993, '94, when I wrote the Digital Economy, it was dial-up. Ebay. >> 14 four. >> Amazon didn't exist. >> Actually 98 I think it was. >> When I wrote that book. Google was five years away. Facebook was 10 years away, so but now we've got wireless, we've got IP everywhere. We've got mobility. We've got the cloud, we've got all the preconditions for this new innovation to happen a lot faster. And that's why, I mean, a year ago, there wasn't a lot of talk at this event about Blockchain. Today it's the big buzz. >> I wonder if you could talk about other applications. You talk about hyper ledger, it's a great place for a starting point, especially for IBM, but one of the areas I'm excited about is security. You know, like the MIT Enigma Project, and there are others, you know, security is such a problem. Every year we look back, John and I, we say, do we feel more secure? And no, we feel less secure. What about the application of Blockchain in security use cases? >> Well, Blockchains are more secure in a number of ways. One is they're harder to hack than traditional servers. And people say, "No, our company, we're bulletproof." Right, tell that to JP Morgan and Home Depot-- >> Target fidelity-- >> The Democratic National Convention, but also tell it to the CIA. I mean, if the CIA can be hacked, then any of these traditional server technologies can be hacked. So that, alone, is a huge case to move towards hyper ledger and these other type platforms. But you said, "I feel less secure these days." And that's a really interesting statement. Because I think that, in many ways, the security of the person has been undermined by the internet of information, as well. That, first of all, we don't own the data that we create. That's a crazy situation. We all create this massive new asset. It's a new asset class. Probably more important than industrial plant, in the industrial age. Maybe more important than land in the agrarian age. We create it, but these data frackers, you know, like-- >> Facebook. >> --Facebook. Own it and that's a big problem. The virtual you is not owned by you. So we need to get our identity back and to manage it responsibly, and people who say to me, "Well, Don, privacy's dead, get over it." This is foolishness. Privacy is the foundation of freedom. And all these things are happening in our world today that undermine our basic security. Our identity's being taken away from us. Or the fact that things happen in this digital world that we don't know, what are the underlying algorithms? If I take this, and I drop it, that's called gravity. I know what's going to happen. But if I go onto Facebook and I do certain things, I have no idea what are the algorithms that's determining what's happening with that and how the data is used. So-- >> Hello fake news. That's how fake news came about. >> Well, yeah, totally. >> People don't know what to trust and it's like, wait a minute. >> Exactly, and well, this has led, also, to a total fragmentation of public discourse, where we've all ended up in these little self reinforcing echo chambers where the purpose of information is not to inform us, it's to, I don't know, give us comfort. >> Divide people. >> Yeah. So, I'm not saying that Blockchains can fix everything, in fact, they can't fix anything, it's humans that fix things. But the key point that Alex and I make in the book is that once again the technology genie has escaped from the bottle, and it was summoned by this person that we don't even know who they are. At a very uncertain time in history. But it's giving us another kick at the can. To sort of fix these problems. To make a world where trust is embedded in everything and where things are trustworthy, and where people are trustworthy, and maybe we can rewrite the whole economic power grid and the old order of things for the better. And that's really important. >> My final question for you, and this is kind of a thought provoking question. Every major revolution, you see, big one, you've seen a counter culture, '60s, computer revolution, PC revolution, are we on the edge now of a new counter culture developing? Because the things you're kind of teasing out is this new generation, is it the '60s version of tech hippies or is there going to be a, because you're getting at radical reconfiguration, radical value creation, this is good evolution, and fast. So you can almost see the young generation, like my son, you're talking about, teaching us how to do it, that's a counter culture. Do you see that happening? >> Well, first of all, I see this change in culture profoundly, so artists can get fairly compensated for the work they create. Imogen Heap puts her song on a Blockchain platform, and the song's inside a smart contract that specifies the IP rights. And you want to listen to it, maybe it's free, you want to put it in your movie, it costs more. The way she describes it is the song acts as a business, and it has a bank account. So, we can profoundly change many aspects of culture, bringing more justice to our culture. But I'm not sure there'll be a counter culture in the traditional sense because you've got people embracing Blockchain that want to fix a bunch of problems, but also people who want to make large organizations more competitive and more effective. The smart banks are embracing this because they know they can cut their transaction costs in half, probably. And they know that if they don't do it, somebody else will. >> And IBM's embracing it because they write software and they service all those firms with technology. >> Well, IBM, the case of IBM is really interesting, and I'll end on that one. That if you think about it, and I go back, I mean, there were only main frames when I started, and IBM was the leader of the bunch, right? And then all the bunch died, but IBM somehow reinvented itself and it got into mini computers and then we saw the rise of the PC and IBM invented the IBM PC, and then we got into the internet, and once again, all these companies died off but somehow IBM was able to find within itself the leadership to transform itself. And I'm, I won't say I'm shocked, but I have to tell you, I'm really delighted that IBM has figured this one out and is driving hard to be a leader of this next generation of the internet. >> And they're driving open source, too, to give IBM a plug, Don Tapscott, great to have you on the Cube. Good luck with your speech today. A legend in the industry, great thinker, futurist. Amazing work. Blockchain is the next revolution, it will impact, it's an opportunity for entrepreneurs, this is a disruptive enabler, you can literally take down incumbent businesses. Changing the nature of the firm, radical economical change. Thanks so much for sharing the insight. >> Nice hat, too. >> I got a nice hat. I got a free bowl of soup with this hat, as they say-- >> Don: It's all about the Blockchain, baby. >> It's all about the Blockchain. >> It's all about the Blockchain. >> More Blockchain Cube analysis as we disrupt you with more coverage, I'm John Furrier, Dave Velante, stay with us. (musical sting)

hi from Las Vegas Nevada it's the cube covering IBM world of Watson 2016 brought to you by IBM now here are your hosts John Fourier as Dave Volante hey welcome back everyone we are here live at the Mandalay Bay at the IBM world of Watson this is Silicon angles cube our flagship program we go out to the events and extract the signal from the noise I'm John Fourier with my co-host Dave allanté for the two days of wall-to-wall coverage our next guest is michelle fools so who's the chief marketing officer for IBM knew the company fairly new within the past year yes welcome to the queue last month I think you check all these new hires a lot of new blood coming inside me but this is a theme we heard from Staples to be agile to be fast you're new what's what's your impressions and what's your mandate for the branding the IBM strong brand but yes what's the future look well look I'm I'm thrilled to be here and I'm thrilled to be here because this is an extraordinary company that makes real difference in the world right and that I think you feel it here at the world of Watson in the sort of everyday ways that Watson and IBM touches consumers such as end-users makes their health better you know allows them to have greater experiences so so that's incredible to be part of my kind of company having said that and exactly to your point it's a time of acceleration and change for everyone in IBM is not immune to that and so my mandate here in my remit here and coming in and being a huge fan of what IBM has to say well how do we sharpen our messaging how do we always feel like a challenger brand you know how do we think about what Watson can do for people what the cloud can do what our services business can do and how is that distinctive and differentiated from everybody else out there and I think we have an incredible amount of assets to play with that's got to be through the line you know it's no longer the case that we can have a message on TV and that you know attracts the world the digital experiences are having every single day when they're clicking through on an ad when they're chatting with somebody when their car call center when they have a sales interaction is that differentiated message that brand resident all the way through second thing is marketing's become much more of a science you know and that to me is super exciting I've been a CEO most of my career and you know that the notion that marketing has to drive revenue that marketing has to drive retention and loyalty and expansion that we can come to the table with much more science in terms of what things are most effective in making sure that more clients love us more deeply for longer I'm gonna ask you the question because we had we've had many conversations with Kevin he was just here he was on last year Bob Lord the new chief digital officer we talked to your customers kind of the proof points in today's market is about transparency and if you're not a digital company how could you expect customers to to work with them so this has been a big theme for IBM you guys are hyper focused on being a digital company yes yes and how does it affect the brand a brand contract with the users what's your thoughts on that well first of all Bob Lord is awesome we've known each other for 10 years so it's so wonderful to be working with him again and Dave Kenny as well I think that the at the end of the day consumers have experiences and and you know think of every business you know out there as a consumer and they're having experiences all the time their expectations are being shaped by the fact that they go on Amazon and get prime delivery right their expectations are being shaped by they can go on Netflix and get you know personalized recommendations for them or Spotify and so our job of course and we have some of the greatest technical minds in the world it's to make sure that every experience lines up with the highest of their expectations and so much of that is digital and so my passion my background is entirely in the digital space I have a CEO of Travelocity and then CEO of gilt chief marketing a digital officer at Citigroup so the notion that you know the world's greatest digital experiences is something I'm very passionate about you mentioned Zelda so big TV ads and you think of the smarter planet which was so effective but it was a big TV campaign so you do what's the what's the sort of strategy that you're envisioning is in sort of digital breadcrumbs maybe you could talk about deadly yeah well think about Watson it's a perfect place to think about the Watson branding what does Watson really mean right Watson is and Ginni has said this so well of course it's cognitive and but at the end of the day it's about helping people make better decisions and so you can do some advertising with Watson and Bob Dylan and Watson and you know the young young girl with Serena and and you can get that messaging high but then you've got to bring it all the way through so that's why it's something like this is so powerful to see Woodside up their alley or all these companies talking about staples how they are using Watson embedded in their processes their tools to make their end-users experiences better and how nobody else could do this for them the way Watson's doing it that's taking a brand on high and advertising message on high and delivering value for businesses for patients for consumers all the way through that's what we have to do I got to ask you about that ad advertising trends I so we all see ad blocker in the news digital is a completely different new infrastructure expanded dynamic with social what not you can talk about Bob and I were talking last night about it too you Trevor you know banner ads are all out there impression base and then coded URLs to a landing page email marketing not gonna go away anytime soon but it's changing rapidly we have now new channels yeah what's your thoughts because this is now a new kind of ROI equation is there any thoughts on how you look at that and is it going to integrate into the top level campaigns how are you looking at the new digital that the cutting-edge digital stuff huge amounts of thoughts on this topic so I think you know if you think back 15 20 years ago there were always something called market mix modelling which helps advertisers and marketers to understand the effectiveness of their TV campaigns and frankly not too dissimilar from Nielsen you know there were so there was art and science at best in it and then all of a sudden the digital world evolved and you could get at a tactical level very very clear about attribution and whether you drove something and the challenge for us now is much more sophisticated models that are multi-touch attribution because the reality is an average consumer doesn't do one thing or have one interaction with a brand they're gonna see a TV show and watch a commercial while they're watching that commercial that business user or that end consumer is on their iPad or on their phone they're seeing a digital ad the next day at work they're being retargeted because they were aughts company they search for something they see a search campaign our job is to connect those dots and understand what really moves that consumer that business user to take an action and there are many sophisticated multi-touch attribution models where you model you know a standard set of behaviors and you test correlations against a bunch of different behaviors so you understand of what I did all the money I spent what really drove impact and by cohort I think that's the other credit there's no more the sense of sort of aggregated everything you really have to break it out yeah I didn't space my cohort to see what moves me and improve that experience right which has been you you get the example in the day of the Hilton retirees you already know that the retard the hotel was full so so obviously Watson plays a role in them Satyam plays a role in that so it's all about data it's all about you know that's where I think Watson can be extraordinarily helpful so if you think about the tool as a marketer has they're becoming more and more sophisticated and retargeting with something out of 10 years ago whenever was introduced that helped all of us a little bit and getting that message but it is only as good as the API is behind it and the the experience behind it when now when I was at gilt I was CEO of gilt we would put over a thousand products on sale every day that would be sold out by the next day sales down this 24-hour flash sale we had to get really really good at knowing how to how to retarget because last thing you want is to retarget something that sold out right or gone the next day and understand the user that was in and out and they're coming back and of course in that cohort that's where Watson to me is very exciting and you probably saw this in some of the demos of where Watson can help marketers you know where Watson can can really understand what are the drivers of behavior and what is likely to drive the highest purpose why were you so successful at guild and and how are the challenges different years because there's a sort of relatively more narrow community or city group to I was called the chief marketing and digital officer at Citigroup and and you know a tremendous budget and a lot of transactions you have to drive every day a lot of people you want to open credit cards and bank accounts so around the world I think that the the relentless focus on on marketing being art and science you know art and science and I think that's you know that passion for analytics passion for measurement having been CEO that passion for being able to say this is what we're doing and this is what we're driving so you've been kind of a data geek in your career you mentioned the financial services you can't to measure everything but back to the ad question you know the old saying used to be wasting half my advertise I just don't know which half yeah and my archives is wasted but now for the first time in the history of business in the modern era you measure everything online that's right so does that change your view and the prism of how you look at the business cuz you mentioned multi-touch yeah so now does that change the accountability for the suppliers I mean at agencies doing the big campaign I think it changes the game for all of us and there's no destination this is every day you can get better at optimizing your budget and and I would be the first to tell you as much of a sort of engineering and data geek because I've always been and deep-fried in the reality is there is art even in those attribution models what look back windows you choose etc that you know you're making decisions as a company but once you make those decisions you can start arraying all of your campaigns and saying what really moved the needle what was the most effective it's not an indictment that say what are we can do differently tomorrow you know the best marketers are always optimizing they're always figuring out at what point in the final can we get better tomorrow well in answer about talent because that's one of the things that we always talk about and also get your thoughts on Women in Technology scheme we were just at Grace Hopper last week and we started to fellowship called the tech truth and we're doing it's real passion area for us we have a site up QP 65 net / women in tech all women interviews we're really trying it the word out but this is now a big issue because now it's not stem anymore it's team arts is in there and we were also talking to the virtual reality augmented reality user experience is now potentially going to come into the immersion students and there's not enough artists yeah so you starting to see a combination of new discipline talents that are needed in the professions as well as the role of women in technology yeah your thoughts on that because this isn't you've been very successful what's your view on that at what's your thoughts about thank you for what you're doing right it takes a lot of people up there saying that this is important to make a difference so most of all thank you you know I think that this this is obviously a place I've been passion about forever I remember being a and being pregnant and that becoming this huge you know issue a news story and you're trying to juggle it right and how could a woman CEO be pregnant so it's so funny how people ridiculous took attention but but I think that the point is that the the advantage as a company has when there are great women in engineering and great women in data science and great women and user experience and design are just palpable they're probable in a variety of ways right when the team thinks differently the team is more creative the team is more open to new ideas the output for the customers are better right I mean they just saw a snapchat today just announced that in 2013 70% of their users were women so all the early adopters were women you know now it's balance but the early the early crowd were women and so we have got to figure out how to break some of the minds now I'm incredibly encouraged though while we still have a long way to go the numbers would suggest that we're having the conversation more and more and women are starting to see other women like them that they want to be it's a global narrative which is good why we're putting some journalists on there and funding it as and just as a fellowship because this it's a global story yeah okay and the power women I mean it's like there are real coders and this real talent coming in and the big theme that came out of that was is that 50% of the consumers of product are women's but therefore they should have some women features and related some vibe in there not just a male software driven concept well and should too when a powerful individual male individual like Satya steps in it and and you know understands what the mistaken and someone like refer to his speech two years ago where he said that you should just bad karma don't speak up and opening up transparency he got some heat yeah but that talk as you probably know but my opinion it's it's it's a positive step when an individual like that it was powerful and opening transparency within their company yeah that's it is that great networking I host a core I've been doing this for a year years with a good friend of mine Susan line from AOL we host a quarterly breakfast for women in tech every every quarter in New York City and we've been doing it for a long time it's amazing when those women come together the conversations we have the discussions we have how to help each other and support each other and so that's that's a real passion we were lost in a few weeks ago for the data science summit which Babu Chiana was hosting in and one of the folks was hosting the data divas breakfast we a couple there were a couple day two dudes who walked in and it was interesting yeah the perspectives 25 percent of the women or the chief data officer were women mm-hmm which was an interesting discussion as well so great 1,000 men at 15 you know as you see that techno but it's certainly changing when I get back to the mentoring thing because one of the things that we're all so passionate about is you've been a pioneer okay so now there's now an onboarding of new talent new personas new professions are being developed because we're seeing a new type of developer we're seeing new types of I would say artists becoming either CG so there's new tech careers that weren't around and a lot of the new jobs that are going to be coming online haven't even been invented yet right so you see cognition and what cognitive is enabling is a new application of skills yep can your thoughts on that because this is an onboarding opportunity so this could change the the number of percentage of women is diverse when you think about what I mean it's clear your notion of steam right your notion of stem that is a male and female phenomena and that is what this country needs it's what this world needs more of and so there's a policy and education obligation and all of us have to the next generation to say let's make sure we're doing right by them in terms of education and job opportunities when you think about onboarding I mean to me that the biggest thing about onboarding is the world is so much more interconnected than it used to be if you're a marketer it's not just art or science you have to do both it's a right brain left brain connectivity and I think 1020 years ago you could grow up in a discipline that was functional and maybe siloed and maybe you were great at left brain or great at right brain and the world demands so much more it's a faster pace it's an accelerated pace and the interconnection is critical and I've one of the things we're doing is we're putting together these diamond teams and I think it's going to really help lead the industry diamond teams are when you have on every small agile marketing team and analytics head a product marketing had a portfolio marketing had a design or a social expert these small pods that work on campaigns gone are the days that you could say designer designs it product comes up with the concept then it goes so it's design team then it goes to a production team then it goes to an analytics team we're forcing this issue by putting these teams together and saying you work together every day you'll get a good sense of where the specialty is and how you learn how to make your own discipline better because you've got the analytics person asked a question about media buying and media planning advertising as we're seeing this new real-time wet web yeah world mobile world go out the old days of planned media buyers placed the advertisement was a pacing item for execution yep now things you mentioned in the guild flash sales so now you're seeing new everyday flash opportunities to glob on to an opportunity to be engagement yeah and create a campaign on the fly yes and a vision of you guys I mean do you see that and does it change the cadence of how you guys do your execution of course of course that's one of the reasons we're moving to this diamond team and agile I think agile will ultimately be as impactful to marketing as it was to engineering and development and so I think the of course and that has to start with great modeling and great attribution because you have to know where things are performing so that you can iterate all the time I mean I believe in a world where you don't have marketing budgets and I know that sounds insane but I believe in a world where you set target and ranges on what you think you're gonna spend at the beginning of the year and every week like an accordion you're optimizing spend shipping code you've been marketing you should be doing like code so much of marketing is its episodic you boom and then it dies in a moment it's gone to the next one and you're talking about something that's I love that you know the personas to your point are much more fluid as well you got Millennials just creating their own vocations yes well this is where I think consumer companies have led the path and you know if you think about a lot of b2b companies we've had this aggregated CIO type buyer and now we've got to get much more sophisticated about what does the developer want you know what's important to the developer the messaging the tools the capabilities the user experience what about the marketer you know what the person in financial services and so both industry and professional discipline and you know schooling now with Watson you don't have to guess what they want you can actually just ask them yeah well you can actually the huge advantage you got you observe the observation space is now addressable right so you pull that in and say and that's super important even the stereotype of the persona is changing you've been saying all week that the developer is increasingly becoming business oriented maybe they don't they want they don't want to go back and get their MBA but they want to learn about capex versus op X and that's relevant to them and they to be a revolutionary you have to understand the impact right and and and they want to ship code they want to change the world I mean that is every engineering team I've ever worked at the time only worked with I mean I've been as close to engineering as from day one of the internet or early on in the internet great engineers are revolutionaries they want to change the world and they change the world they want to have a broader and broader understanding of what levers are at their disposal and I will say that I you know and I am one of the reasons I came to yam is I am passionate about this point technology cannot be in the hands of a few companies on the west coast who are trying to control and dominate the experience technology has to exist for all those amazing developers everywhere in the world who will make a difference to end user this is IBM strategy you actually have a big presence on the west coast also in Germany so you guys are going to where the action centers ours but not trying to just be so Malory point is what exactly because my point is IBM has always been there for making businesses stronger and better we don't monetize their data that's not our thing our thing is to use our cloud our cognitive capabilities and Watson to make actual businesses better so that ultimately consumers have better health care and better results I know you're new on the job silence this is not a trick question just kind of a more conversational as you talk to Bob lower Bob Chiana Jeanne yeah what's the promise of the brand and you used to be back in the days when you know Bob piano we talk about when we I worked at IBM in the 80s co-op student and it was you'll never get fired for buying IBM mainframe the kind of concept but it's evolved and I'll see we see a smarter plan what's the brand promise now you guys talk about what's the brainstorm on its head I think that I think the greatest innovators the world the most passionate business leaders of tomorrow come to IBM to make the world better and I I believe this is a brand for the forward the forward lookers the risk takers the you know the makers I think that you come to IBM because there's extraordinary assets and industry knowledge real humans real relationships that we exist to make your business better not our business will be a vibrato be exist to make your business better that has always been where IBM has been strong you know it's interesting that brings up a good point and just riffing on that Dave and I were just observing you know at the Grace Hopper with our tech truth mentorship which is promoting the intersection of Technology and social justice you're seeing that mission of Technology business value and social justice as an integral part of strategies because now the consumer access the consumerization of business yeah software based is now part of that feedback you're not doing good Millennials demand it I mean Millennials now when you look at the research in the next generation high Millennials are very very you know they want to know what are you doing for the world I mean who could do a 60 minute show besides IBM who could have who could be on 60 minutes changing cancer changing cancer outcomes for people beside IBM that that is an extraordinary testament to what the brand is and how it comes to life every day and that's important for Millennials we had Mary click-clack Clinton yesterday she is so impressive we're talking about how though these ozone layer is getting smaller these are us problems it can be solved they have to be so climate change can be solved so the whole getting the data and she's weather compass oh she's got a visit view on that is interesting her point is if we know what the problems are we as a community global society could actually solve them completely and it's an you know the more we make this a political and we say here is a problem and we have the data and we have the tools we have the people and capabilities to solve it that is where IBM Stan's tallest well I think with Watson use its focused on some big hairy problems to start with and now you're knocking off some some of the you know maybe more mundane but obviously significant to a marketer incredible that a company can start with the hardest most complicated problems the world has and actually make a difference my final question when I asked Mary this yesterday and she kind of talked about if she could have the magic Watson algorithm to just do something magical her and what would it be and she said I'll send Watson to the archives of all the weather data going back to World War two just compile it all and bring it back or addressability so the question is if you could have a Magic Watson algorithm for your chief marketing officer job what would you assign it to do like what would it be it's like first task well first of all reaction of course I'm a mom of six year olds an eight year old and so I want Watson to optimize my time no but a chief marketing officer I mean I think it really does go back to getting Watson's help in understanding how we use a dollar better how we use a dollar smarter how we affect more customers and and and connect connects with more customers in the way we you know we communicate the way we engage the way we've put our programs out that would be extraordinary and that's possible that's becoming more and more possible you know bringing science into the art of marketing I think will have great impact on what we're doing in also just the world I mean nobody wants to have you know maybe targeted ten times for something that's sold out well we asked one more time here so I got some more couple of questions because it's not getting the hook yet I gotta ask you see you mentioned Travelocity you know the web you've been through the web 1.2.0 yeah yeah so on so URLs and managing URLs was a great tracking mechanism from the old impressions weren't working and go to call to action get that look right there but now we different where that world is kind of like become critical infrastructure for managing technology since you're kind of geeking out with us here what's your view of the API economy because now apps don't use URLs they use tokens they use api's they use new push notification based stuff what sure how does api's change the marketing opportunities both right it's clearly changes the engineering environment and sort of opens up the world of possibilities in terms of who you partner with and how etc and I think it changes the marketing world too and entirely right you think about the API economy and the access you have to new ways of doing business new potential partnerships new ways of understanding data you know that that is absolutely you know at the fore of a lot of our thinking it might change the agency relationships to if they got to be more technical in changing as much as fast as companies are and they have to you know they are an extension they're your best you should be able to look in a room of agency and your team and not know who is who when you can tell who is who you have a problem and so agencies themselves have to become you know way more scientific harder-hitting faster pace and outcomes orient and somebody sees now are saying you know what pay me on outcomes I love that I love that mode to say we're in the boat with you pay me on outcome and the big s eyes are right there - absolutely yes Michele Palooza new chief marketing officer at IBM changing the game bring in some great mojo to IBM they're lucky to have you great conversations and thanks for coming on the cube live at Mandalay Bay this is silicon angles the cube I'm John four with Dave Volante be right back with more after this short break

>>que presents on the ground. Wait. >>Hi. I'm Lisa Martin with the Cube, and we're on the ground at the Computer History Museum in Silicon Valley with the Association for Corporate Earth or a CG. Tonight is a CG 12th annual Growth Awards, and we're very fortunate to be joined by one of the longest sponsors of a CG Deloitte Gary Herbert from Delight. Welcome to the Cube. >>Thank you so much. >>So not only is a long time sponsor base did you get through the second biggest with the presumably a lot of options that Dylan has a sponsor and engage in communities like that. What next? A CG unique and warrant Deloitte sponsorship and active participation >>Delights been involved with a CG for over 10 years. And the reason is they collect a great group of senior leaders in Silicon Valley to talk about things that are really important. And a lot of great networks air here and make great things happen in the community. >>Excellent. And you can hear and feel the buzz of the innovation and the history of veterans in the room. We're here tonight to honor men who won the 2016 outstanding growth award, as well as Ambarella, who won the 2016 Emerging Growth Award in terms of the metrics used to select the winners, can you give us a little insight into what those metrics are and what this metrics and key criteria really mean for these types of award winners? >>One of the key metrics that we look at his revenue growth and Fitbit has had an incredible run over the last five years. But what's particularly amazing about Fitbit is they've been doing it very profitably, so it's really been a great testament to that. You can grow and grow in a profitable matter. >>And as we look at the next 2 to 3 years, in your perspective, what are some of the market drivers that you're going to see really influencing the fifth Mrs Your predictions there expect >>Fitbits and continue to be very successful. They've really done a great job from an execution perspective. They got great products and they define their brand. It's not just a just a tracker of steps. It is really a wellness brand. And that's why I think they're gonna continue to be successful. >>Same question for Amarillo in terms of emerging growth where some of the market drivers over the next two years, Amarilla will face. What are your >>predictions for them with Amber? I mean, since they're in the chip business, they they place themselves or have been very successful with getting successful with successful products, and that'll help their continued growth as well. Excellent. And >>what that said, Tell us what's next for Deloitte. >>Deloitte and we're diversified. Professional service is firm. I mean, people think of Deloitte as part of the Big Four, which is people think of audit Tax, I think people don't know is we're also actually were a consulting firm and an advisory firm. In fact, that makes up more than half of our revenues here. Look excellent. >>As we look forward to the future, we know tonight think that an emerald are in some great company with past winners. Lengthen Trulia Gopro What? Your predictions >>for the next class of candidates for 2017 grow awards. That's what's really exciting about this is you don't know who's successful. Companies are. If you told me three years ago is gonna be here today, I wouldn't have necessarily thought that. Um So what's exciting about this is you get to see what is next and who's who's being successful. And it really gets to celebrate the growth of those companies. Absolutely great closing to celebrate, not just the growth of these companies tonight fit, but an amber alert that we're here to celebrate, but >>also all of the >>leadership and expertise and sponsorship that we have here in Silicon Valley. Garrett, thank you so much for taking time to join us. It was a pleasure having you on the Cube. Thank you so much, Lisa. And with that said, Thank you for watching the Cube. I'm your host, Lisa Martin, and we'll see you next time.