>>Hello, everyone. My name is John Jane Shake. I work from Iran. Tous Andi. I am here this afternoon very gratefully with Anders Vulcan, who is VP of technology strategy for cloud bees, a Miranda's partner and a well known company in the space that we're going to be discussing. Anders is also a well known entity in this space, which is continuous integration and continuous delivery. Um, you've seen already today some sessions that focus on specific implementations of continuous integration and delivery, um, particularly around security. And, uh, we think this is a critically important topic for anyone in the cloud space, particularly in this increasingly complicated kubernetes space. To understand, um, Miranda's thanks, Uh, if I can recapitulate our own our own strategy and, uh, and language that with complexity on uncertainty consistently increasing with the depth of the technology stacks that we have to deal with consistently, um um elaborating themselves that navigating this requires, um first three implementation of automation to increase speed, which is what C and C d do. Um, and that this speed ba leveraged toe let us ship and iterate code faster. Since that's ultimately the business that all of us air in one way or another. I would like, I guess, toe open this conversation by asking Onders what does he think of that core strategy? >>You know, I think you know, hitting the security thing, right? Right off the bat. You know, security doesn't happen by accident. You know, security is not something that you know, Like a like a server in a restaurant. You know, Sprinkles a little bit of Parmesan cheese right before they serve you the the food. It's not something you Sprinkle on at the end. It's something that has to be baked in from the beginning, not just in the kitchen, but in the supply chain from from from the very beginning. So the you know it's a feature, and if you don't build it, if you're not going to get an outcome that you're not gonna be happy with and I think the you know it's increasingly it's obviously increasingly important and increasingly visible. You know, the you know, the kinds of security problems that we that we see these days can can be, you know, life altering, for for people that are subject to them and and can be, you know, life or death for a company that that's exposed to it. So it's it's it's very, very important. Thio pay attention to it and to work to achieve that as an explicit outcome of the software delivery process. And I think, you know, C i n c d as as process as tooling as culture plays a big part in that because ah, lot of it has to do with, you know, set things up, right? Um run them the same way over and over, you know, get the machine going. Turned the crane. Now, you wanna you wanna make improvements over over time. You know, it's not just, you know, set it and forget it. You know, we got that set up. We don't have to worry about it anymore, but it really is a question of, you know, get the human out of the loop a lot of the times because if if you're dealing with configuring complex systems, you wanna make sure that you get them set up configured, you know, documented Ideally, you know, as code, whether it's a domain specific language or or something like that. And then that's something that you contest against that you can verify against that you can that you can difficult. And then that becomes the basis for for your, you know, for yourself, for pipelines, for your automation around, you know, kind of the software factory floor. So I think automation is a key aspect of that because it, you know, it takes a lot of the drudgery out of it, for one thing, So now the humans have more time to spend on doing on the on the creative things on the things that we're good at a zoo. Humans and it also make sure that, you know, one of the things that computers are really good at is doing the same thing over and over and over and over. Eso that kind of puts that responsibility into the hands of the entity that that knows how to do that well, which is which is the machine eso I think it's, you know, it's a light. It's a deep, deep topic, obviously, but, you know, automation plays into it. Uh, you know, small batch sizes play into it, you know, being able to test very frequently whether that's testing in. You're kind of you're C I pipeline where you're sort of doing building mostly unit testing, maybe some integration testing, but also in layering in the mawr. Serious kinds of testing in terms of security scanning, penetration, testing, vulnerability, scanning. You know those sorts of things which, you know, maybe you do on every single see I Bill. But most people don't because those things tend toe take a little bit longer on. And you know you want your sea ice cycle to be as fast as possible because that's really in service of the developer who has committed code and wants toe kind of see the thumbs up from the system saying it. And, um, so most organizations most organizations are are are focusing on, you know, making sure that there's a follow on pipeline to follow on set of tests that happened after the C I passes successfully and and that's, you know, where a lot of the security scanning and those sorts of things happen. >>It's a It's an interesting problem. I mean, you mentioned, um, what almost sounds like a Lawrence Lessig Ian kind of idea that, you know, code is law in enterprises today, code particularly see, I code ends up being policy, but At the same time, there's, Ah, it seems to me there's a an alternative peril, which is, as you increase speed, particularly when you become more and more dependent on things like containers and layering technology to provide components and capabilities that you don't have to build yourself to your build pipeline, that there are new vulnerabilities, potentially that creep in and can creep in despite automation. Zor at least 1st. 1st order automation is attempts toe to prevent them from creeping in. You don't wanna you wanna freeze people on a six month old version of a key container image. But on the other hand, if the latest version has vulnerabilities, that could be a problem. >>Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, it's it's a it's a it's a double edged sword. It's two sides of the same coin. I think you know, when I talked to a lot of security people, um, you know, people to do it for a living is supposed to mean I just talk about it, um, that Z not completely true. But, um, the ah, lot of times the problem is old vulnerabilities. The thing that I think keeps a lot of people up at night isn't necessarily that the thing at the tip of the releases for particular, you know, well known open source, library or something like that. But that's gonna burn you all the vast majority of the time. And I want to say, like, 80 85% of the time. The vulnerability is that you that you get hosed by are ones that have been known about for years. And so I think the if I had to pick. So if you know, in that sort of two sides of that coin, if I had to pick, I would say Be aggressive in making sure that your third party dependencies are updated frequently and and continuously right, because that is the biggest, biggest cause of of of security vulnerabilities when it comes to third party code. Um, now you know the famous saying, You know, move fast and break things Well, there's certain things you don't want to break. You know you don't want to break a radiation machine that's going to deliver radio radiotherapy to someone because that will endanger their health. So So those sorts of systems, you know, naturally or subject a little bit more kind of caution and scrutiny and rigor and process those sorts of things. The micro service that I run that shows my little avatar when I log in, that one probably gets a little less group. You know, Andre rightfully so. So I think a lot of it has to do. And somebody once said in a I think it was, Ah, panel. I was on a PR say conference, which was, which was kind of a wise thing to say it was Don't spend a million dollars protecting a $5 assets. You know, you wanna be smart and you wanna you wanna figure out where your vulnerabilities they're going to come from and in my experience, and and you know, what I hear from a lot of the security professionals is pay attention to your supply chain. You're you want to make sure that you're up to date with the latest patches of, of all of your third party, you know, open source or close source. It doesn't really matter. I mean, if anything, you know, open source is is more open. Eso You could inspect things a little bit better than the close source, but with both kinds of streams of code that you consume and and use. You wanna make sure that you're you're more up to date as opposed to a less up to date? Um, that generally will be better. Now, can a new version of the library cause problems? You know, introduce bugs? You know, those sorts of things? Yes. That's why we have tests. That's what we have automated tests, regression, sweets, You know, those sorts of things. And so you wanna, you know, you wanna live in a in a world where you feel the confidence as a as a developer, that if I update this library from, you know, one debt owed at 3 to 1 debt owed at 10 to pick up a bunch of, you know, bug fixes and patches and those sorts of things. But that's not going to break some on demand in the test suites that that will run against that ought to cover that that sort of functionality. And I'd rather be in that world of Oh, yeah, we tried to update to that, but it But it broke the tests and then have to go spend time on that, then say, Oh, it broke the test. So let's not update. And then six months later, you do find out. Oh, geez. There was a problem in one that owed at three. And it was fixed in one. That about four. If only we had updated. Um, you know, you look at the, um you look at some of the highest profile security breaches that are out there that you sort of can trace toe third party libraries. It's almost always gonna be that it was out of date and hadn't been patched. That's so that's my you know, opinionated. Take on that. Sure. >>What are the parts of modern C I c D. As opposed to what one would encounter 56 years ago? Maybe if we can imagine that is being before the micro services and containers revolution really took off. >>You know, I think e think you're absolutely right that, you know, not the whole world is not doing. See, I Yeah, and certainly the whole world is not doing city yet. Um, you know, I think you know, as you say, we kind of live in a little bit of an ivory tower. You know, we live in an echo chamber in a little bit of a bubble Aziz vendors in this space. The truth is that I would say less than 50% of the software organizations out there do real. See, I do real CD. The number's probably less than that. Um, you know, I don't have anything to back that up other than just I talked to a lot of folks and work with, you know, with a lot of organizations and like, Yeah, that team does see I that team does Weekly builds You know, those sorts of things. It's it's really all over the place, Onda. Lot of times there's There's definitely, in my experience, a high correlation there with the amount of time that a team or a code base has been around, and the amount of sort of modern technologies and processes and and and so on that are that are brought to it on. And that sort of makes sense. I mean, if you if you're starting with the green field with a blank sheet of paper, you're gonna adopt, you know, the technologies and the processes and the cultures of today. A knot of 5, 10 15 15 years ago, Um but but most organizations air moving in that direction. Right? Andi, I think you know what? What? What? What's really changed in the last few years is the level of integration between the various tools between the various pieces and the amount of automation that you could bring to bear. I mean, I you know, I remember, you know, five or 10 years ago having all kinds of conversations with customers and prospects and and people of conferences and so on and they said, Oh, yeah, we'd like to automate our our software development life cycle, but, you know, we can't We have a manual thing here. We have a manual thing there. We do this kind of testing that we can automate it, and then we have this system, but it doesn't have any guy. So somebody has to sit and click on the screen. And, you know, and I used to say e used to say I don't accept No for an answer of can you automate this right? Everything. Anything can be automated. Even if you just get the little drinking bird. You know that just pokes the mouse. Everyone something. You can automate it, and I Actually, you know, I had one customer who was like, Okay, and we had a discussion and and and and they said, Well, we had this old Windows tool. We Its's an obscure tool. It's no longer updated, but it's it's it's used in a critical part of the life cycle and it can't be automated. And I said, Well, just install one of those Windows tools that allows you to peek and poke at the, you know, mass with my aunt I said so I don't accept your answer. And I said, Well, unfortunately, security won't allow us to install those tools, Eh? So I had to accept No, at that point, but But I think the big change were one of the biggest changes that's happened in the last few years is the systems now have all I'll have a p i s and they all talk to each other. So if you've gotta, you know, if you if you've got a scanning tool, if you've got a deployment tool, if you have a deployment, you know, infrastructure, you know, kubernetes based or, you know, kind of sitting in front of our around kubernetes thes things. I'll talk to each other and are all automated. So one of the things that's happened is we've taken out a lot of the weight states. A lot of the pauses, right? So if you you know, if you do something like a value stream mapping where you sit down and I'll date myself here and probably lose some of the audience with this analogy. But if you remember Schoolhouse Rock cartoons in in the late seventies, early eighties, there was one which was one of my favorites, and and the guy who did the music for this passed away last year, sadly, But, uh, the it was called How a bill Becomes a Law and they personified the bill. So the bill, you know, becomes a little person and, you know, first time passed by the house and then the Senate, and then the president either signs me or doesn't and or he vetoes, and it really sort of did this and what I always talk about with respect to sort of value stream mapping and talking about your processes, put a GoPro camera on your source codes head, and then follow that source code all the way through to your customer understand all of the stuff that happens to it, including nothing, right? Because a lot of times in that elapsed time, nothing keeps happening, right. If we build software the way we were sorry. If we build cars the way we build software, we would install the radio in a car, and then we would park it in a corner of the factory for three weeks. And then we might remember to test the radio before we ship the car out to the customer. Right, Because that's how a lot of us still develop some for. And I think one thing that's changed in the in the last few years is that we don't have these kind of, Well, we did the bill. So now we're waiting for somebody to create an environment and rack up some hardware and install an operating system and install. You know, this that and the other. You know, that that went from manual to we use Scheffer puppet to do it, which then went to we use containers to do it, which then went to we use containers and kubernetes to do it. So whole swaths of elapsed time in our software development life cycles basically went to nothing, right and went to the point where we can weaken, weaken, configure them way to the left and and and follow them all the way through. And that the artifact that we're delivering isn't necessarily and execute herbal. It could be a container, right? So now that starts to get interesting for us in terms of being able to test against that container scan against that container, def. Against that container, Um, you know, and it, you know, it does bring complexity to in terms of now you've got a layered file system in there. Well, what all is in there, you know, And so there's tools for scanning those kinds of things, But But I think that one of the biggest things that's happened is a lot of the natural pause. Points are no longer natural. Pause points their unnatural pause points, and they're now just delays in yourself for delivery. And so what? What a lot of organizations are working on is kind of getting to the point where those sorts of things get get automated and connected, and that's now possible. And it wasn't 55 or 10 years ago. >>So It sounds like a great deal of the speed benefit, which has been quantified many different ways. But is once you get one of these systems working, as we've all experienced enormous, um, is actually done by collapsing out what would have been unused time in a prior process or non paralyze herbal stuff has been made parallel. >>I remember doing a, uh, spent some time with a customer, and they did a value stream mapping, and they they found out at the end that of the 30 days of elapsed time they were spending three days on task. Everything else was waiting, waiting for a build waiting foran install, waiting for an environment, waiting for an approval, having meetings, you know, those sorts of things. And I thought to myself, Oh, my goodness, you know, 90% of the elapsed time is doing nothing. And I was talking to someone Gene Kim, actually, and I said, Oh my God, it was terrible that these you know, these people are screwed and he says, 0 90%. That's actually pretty good, you know? So So I think you know, if you if you think today, you know, if you If you if you look at the teams that are doing just really pure continuous delivery, you know, write some code committed, gets picked up by the sea ice system and passes through CIA goes through whatever coast, see I processing, you need to do security scanning and so on. It gets staged and it gets pushed into production. That stuff can happen in minutes, right? That's new. That's different. Now, if you do that without having the right automated gates in place around security and and and and those sorts of things you know, then you're living a little bit dangerously, although I would argue not necessarily any more dangerously, than just letting that insecure coat sit around for a week before your shipment, right? It's not like that problem is going to fix itself if you just let it sit there, Um, but But, you know, you definitely operated at a higher velocity. Now that's a lot of the benefit that you're tryingto trying to get out of it, right? You can get stuff out to the market faster, or if you take a little bit more time, you get more out to the market in, in in the same amount of time you could turn around and fix problems faster. Um, if you have a vulnerability, you can get it fixed and pushed out much more quickly. If you have a competitive threat that you need to address, you can you know, you could move that that much faster if you have a critical bug. You know, I mean, all security issues or bugs, sort of by definition. But, you know, if you have a functionality bug, you can you can get that pushed out faster. Eso So I think kind of all factors of the business benefit from from this increase in speed. And I think developers due to because anybody you know, any human that has a context switch and step away from something for for for, you know, duration of time longer than a few minutes, you know, you're gonna you're gonna you're gonna you're gonna have to load back up again. And so that's productivity loss. Now, that's a soft cost. But man, is it Is it expensive and is a painful So you see a lot of benefit there. Think >>if you have, you know, an organization that is just starting this journey What would you ask that organization to consider in orderto sort of move them down this path? >>It's by far the most frequent and almost always the first question I get at the end of the talk or or a presentation or something like that is where do we start? How do I know where to start? And and And there's a couple of answers to that. What one is Don't boil the ocean, right? Don't try to fix everything all at once. You know that because that's not agile, right? The be agile about your transformation Here, you know, pick, pick a set of problems that you have and and make a, you know, basically make a burn down list and and do them in order. So find find a pain point that you have right and, you know, just go address that and and try to make it small and actionable and especially early on when you're trying to affect change. And you're tryingto convinced teams that this is the way to go and you may have some naysayers, or you may have people who are skeptical or have been through these processes before that have been you know failures released, not the successes that they that they were supposed to be. You know, it's important to have some wind. So what I always say is look, you know, if you have a pebble in your shoe, you've got a pain point. You know how to address that. You know, you're not gonna address that by changing out your wardrobe or or by buying a new pair of shoes. You know, you're gonna address that by taking your shoe off, shaking it until the pebble falls out there putting the shoe back on. So look for those kinds of use cases, right? So if you're engineers are complaining that whenever I check in the build is broken and we're not doing see, I well, then let's look at doing C I Let's do see eye, right? If you're not doing that. And for most organizations, you know, setting up C I is a very manageable, very doable thing. There's lots of open source tooling out there. There's lots of commercial tooling out there. Thio do that to do it for small teams to do it for large teams and and everything in between. Um, if the problem is Gosh, Every time we push a change, we break something. You know where every time something works in staging it doesn't work in production. Then you gotta look at Well, how are these systems being configured? If you're If you're configuring them manually, stop automate the configuration of them. Um, you know, if you're if you're fixing system manually, don't you know, as a friend of mine says, don't fix, Repave? Um, you know, you don't wanna, you know, there's a story of, you know how how Google operates in their data centers. You know, they don't they don't go look for a broken disk drive and swap it out. You know, when it breaks, they just have a team of people that, like once a month or something, I don't know what the interval is. They just walked through the data center and they pull out all the dead stuff and they throw it out, and what they did was they assume that if the scale that they operate, things are always going to break physical things are always going to break. You have to build a software to assume that breakage and any system that assumes that we're going to step in when a disk drive is broken and fix it so that we can get back to running just isn't gonna work at scale. There's a similarity. There's sort of ah, parallel to that in in software, which is you know, any time you have these kinds of complex systems, you have to assume that they're gonna break and you have to put the things in place to catch those things. The automated testing, whether it's, you know, whether you have 10,000 tests that you that you've written already or whether you have no tests and you just need to go right, your first test that that journey, you've got to start somewhere. But my answer thio their questions generally always just start small, pick a very specific problem. Build a plan around it, you know, build a burned down list of things that you wanna address and just start working your way down that the same way that you would for any, you know, kind of agile project, your transformation of your own processes of your own internal systems. You should use agile processes for those as well, because if you if you go off for six months and and build something. By the time you come back, it's gonna be relevant. Probably thio the problems that you were facing six months ago. >>A Then let's consider the situation of, ah, company that's using C I and maybe sea ice and C d together. Um, and they want to reach what you might call the next level. Um, they've seen obvious benefits they're interested in, you know, in increasing their investment in, you know and cycles devoted to this technology. You don't have to sell them anymore, but they're looking for a next direction. What would you say that direction should be? I >>think oftentimes what organizations start to do is they start to look at feedback loops. So on DAT starts to go into the area of sort of metrics and analytics and those sorts of things. You know what we're we're always concerned about? You know, we're always affected by things like meantime to recovery. Meantime, the detection, what are our cycle times from, you know, ideation, toe codecommit. What's the cycle? Time from codecommit the production, those sorts of things. And you know you can't change what you don't measure eso so a lot of times the next step after kind of getting the rudimentary zoo of C I Orsini or some combination of both in places start to measure. Stop you, Um, and and then but But there. I think you know, you gotta be smart about it, because what you don't want to do is kind of just pull all the metrics out that exists. Barf them up on the dashboard. And the giant television screens say boom metrics, right. You know, Mike, drop go home. That's the wrong way to do it. You want to use metrics very specifically to achieve outcomes. So if you have an outcome that you want to achieve and you can tie it to a metric start looking at that metric and start working that problem once you saw that problem, you can take that metric. And you know, if that's the metric you're showing on the big you know, the big screen TV, you can pop that off and pick the next one and put it up there. I I always worry when you know a little different when you're in a knock or something like that. When when you're looking at the network stuff and so on. But I'm always leery of when I walk into to a software development organization. You know, just a Brazilian different metrics, this whole place because they're not all relevant. They're not all relevant at the same time. Some of them you wanna look at often, some of them you just want to kind of set an alarm on and make sure that, you know, I mean, you don't go down in your basement every day to check that the sump pump is working. What you do is you put a little water detector in there and you have an alarm go off if the water level ever rises above a certain amount. Well, you want to do the same thing with metrics, right? Once you've got in the water out of your basement, you don't have to go down there and look at it all the time. You put the little detector in, and then you move on and you worry about something else. And so organizations as they start to get a little bit more sophisticated and start to look at the analytics, the metrics, um, start to say, Hey, look, if our if our cycle time from from, you know, commit to deploy is this much. And we want it to be this much. What happens during that time, And where can we take slices out of that? You know, without without affecting the outcomes in terms of quality and so on, or or if it's, you know, from from ideation, toe codecommit. You know what? What can we do there? Um, you start to do that. And and then as you get those sort of virtuous cycles of feedback loops happening, you know, you get better and better and better, but you wanna be careful with metrics, you know, you don't wanna, you know, like I said, you don't wanna barf a bunch of metrics up just to say, Look, we got metrics. Metrics are there to serve a particular outcome. And once you've achieved that outcome, and you know that you can continue to achieve that outcome, you turn it into an alarm or a trigger, and you put it out of sight. And you know that. You know, you don't need to have, like, a code coverage metric prominently displayed you you pick a code coverage number that you're happy with you work to achieve that. Once you achieve it, you just worry about not going below that threshold again. So you can take that graph off and just put a trigger on this as if we ever get below this, you know, raising alarm or fail a build or fail a pipeline or something like that and then start to focus on improving another man. Uh, or another outcome using another matter >>makes enormous sense. So I'm afraid we are getting to be out of time. I want to thank you very much on this for joining us today. This has been certainly informative for me, and I hope for the audience, um, you know, thank you very, very much for sharing your insulin.

>>Hello everyone. Welcome to the Cube's coverage of AWS Reinvent 22. I'm John Ferer, host of the Cube. Got some great coverage here talking about software supply chain and sustainability in the cloud. We've got a great conversation. Gunner Helickson, Vice President and general manager at Red Hat Enterprise Linux and Business Unit of Red Hat. Thanks for coming on. And Edon Eja Director, Product Management of commercial software services aws. Gentlemen, thanks for joining me today. >>Oh, it's a pleasure. >>You know, the hottest topic coming out of Cloudnative developer communities is slide chain software sustainability. This is a huge issue. As open source continues to power away and fund and grow this next generation modern development environment, you know, supply chain, you know, sustainability is a huge discussion because you gotta check things out where, what's in the code. Okay, open source is great, but now we gotta commercialize it. This is the topic, Gunner, let's get in, get with you. What, what are you seeing here and what's some of the things that you're seeing around the sustainability piece of it? Because, you know, containers, Kubernetes, we're seeing that that run time really dominate this new abstraction layer, cloud scale. What's your thoughts? >>Yeah, so I, it's interesting that the, you know, so Red Hat's been doing this for 20 years, right? Making open source safe to consume in the enterprise. And there was a time when in order to do that you needed to have a, a long term life cycle and you needed to be very good at remediating security vulnerabilities. And that was kind of, that was the bar that you had that you had to climb over. Nowadays with the number of vulnerabilities coming through, what people are most worried about is, is kind of the providence of the software and making sure that it has been vetted and it's been safe, and that that things that you get from your vendor should be more secure than things that you've just downloaded off of GitHub, for example. Right? And that's, that's a, that's a place where Red Hat's very comfortable living, right? >>Because we've been doing it for, for 20 years. I think there, there's another, there's another aspect to this, to this supply chain question as well, especially with the pandemic. You know, we've got these, these supply chains have been jammed up. The actual physical supply chains have been jammed up. And, and the two of these issues actually come together, right? Because as we've been go, as we go through the pandemic, we've had these digital transformation efforts, which are in large part people creating software in order to manage better their physical supply chain problems. And so as part of that digital transformation, you have another supply chain problem, which is the software supply chain problem, right? And so these two things kind of merge on these as people are trying to improve the performance of transportation systems, logistics, et cetera. Ultimately it all boils down to it all. Both supply chain problems actually boil down to a software problem. It's very >>Interesting that, Well, that is interesting. I wanna just follow up on that real quick if you don't mind. Because if you think about the convergence of the software and physical world, you know, that's, you know, IOT and also hybrid cloud kind of plays into that at scale, this opens up more surface area for attacks, especially when you're under a lot of pressure. This is where, you know, you can, you have a service area in the physical side and you have constraints there. And obviously the pandemic causes problems, but now you've got the software side. Can you, how are you guys handling that? Can you just share a little bit more of how you guys are looking at that with Red Hat? What's, what's the customer challenge? Obviously, you know, skills gaps is one, but like that's a convergence at the same time. More security problems. >>Yeah, yeah, that's right. And certainly the volume of, if we just look at security vulnerabilities themselves, just the volume of security vulnerabilities has gone up considerably as more people begin using the software. And as the software becomes more important to kind of critical infrastructure, more eyeballs are on it. And so we're uncovering more problems, which is kind of, that's, that's okay. That's how the world works. And so certainly the, the number of remediations required every year has gone up. But also the customer expectations, as I've mentioned before, the customer expectations have changed, right? People want to be able to show to their auditors and to their regulators that no, we, we, in fact, I can show the providence of the software that I'm using. I didn't just download something random off the internet. I actually have, like you, you know, adults paying attention to the, how the software gets put together. >>And it's still, honestly, it's still very early days. We can, I think the, in as an industry, I think we're very good at managing, identifying remediating vulnerabilities in the aggregate. We're pretty good at that. I think things are less clear when we talk about kind of the management of that supply chain, proving the provenance, proving the, and creating a resilient supply chain for software. We have lots of tools, but we don't really have lots of shared expectations. Yeah. And so it's gonna be interesting over the next few years, I think we're gonna have more rules are gonna come out. I see NIST has already, has already published some of them. And as these new rules come out, the whole industry is gonna have to kind of pull together and, and really and really rally around some of this shared understanding so we can all have shared expectations and we can all speak the same language when we're talking about this >>Problem. That's awesome. A and Amazon web service is obviously the largest cloud platform out there, you know, the pandemic, even post pandemic, some of these supply chain issues, whether it's physical or software, you're also an outlet for that. So if someone can't buy hardware or, or something physical, they can always get the cloud. You guys have great network compute and whatnot and you got thousands of ISVs across the globe. How are you helping customers with this supply chain problem? Because whether it's, you know, I need to get in my networking gears delayed, I'm gonna go to the cloud and get help there. Or whether it's knowing the workloads and, and what's going on inside them with respect open source. Cause you've got open source, which is kind of an external forcing function. You got AWS and you got, you know, physical compute stores, networking, et cetera. How are you guys helping customers with the supply chain challenge, which could be an opportunity? >>Yeah, thanks John. I think there, there are multiple layers to that. At, at the most basic level we are helping customers buy abstracting away all these data central constructs that they would have to worry about if they were running their own data centers. They would have to figure out how the networking gear, you talk about, you know, having the right compute, right physical hardware. So by moving to the cloud, at least they're delegating that problem to AWS and letting us manage and making sure that we have an instance available for them whenever they want it. And if they wanna scale it, the, the, the capacity is there for them to use now then that, so we kind of give them space to work on the second part of the problem, which is building their own supply chain solutions. And we work with all kinds of customers here at AWS from all different industry segments, automotive, retail, manufacturing. >>And you know, you see that the complexity of the supply chain with all those moving pieces, like hundreds and thousands of moving pieces, it's very daunting. So cus and then on the other hand, customers need more better services. So you need to move fast. So you need to build, build your agility in the supply chain itself. And that is where, you know, Red Hat and AWS come together where we can build, we can enable customers to build their supply chain solutions on platform like Red Hat Enterprise, Linux Rail or Red Hat OpenShift on, on aws. We call it Rosa. And the benefit there is that you can actually use the services that we, that are relevant for the supply chain solutions like Amazon managed blockchain, you know, SageMaker. So you can actually build predictive and s you can improve forecasting, you can make sure that you have solutions that help you identify where you can cut costs. And so those are some of the ways we are helping customers, you know, figure out how they actually wanna deal with the supply chain challenges that we're running into in today's world. >>Yeah, and you know, you mentioned sustainability outside of software su sustainability, you know, as people move to the cloud, we've reported on silicon angle here in the cube that it's better to have the sustainability with the cloud because then the data centers aren't using all that energy too. So there's also all kinds of sustainability advantages, Gunner, because this is, this is kind of how your relationship with Amazon's expanded. You mentioned Rosa, which is Red Hat on, you know, on OpenShift, on aws. This is interesting because one of the biggest discussions is skills gap, but we were also talking about the fact that the humans are huge part of the talent value. In other words, the, the humans still need to be involved and having that relationship with managed services and Red Hat, this piece becomes one of those things that's not talked about much, which is the talent is increasing in value the humans, and now you got managed services on the cloud, has got scale and human interactions. Can you share, you know, how you guys are working together on this piece? Cuz this is interesting cuz this kind of brings up the relationship of that operator or developer. >>Yeah, Yeah. So I think there's, so I think about this in a few dimensions. First is that the kind of the, I it's difficult to find a customer who is not talking about automation at some level right now. And obviously you can automate the processes and, and the physical infrastructure that you already have that's using tools like Ansible, right? But I think that the, combining it with the, the elasticity of a solution like aws, so you combine the automation with kind of elastic and, and converting a lot of the capital expenses into operating expenses, that's a great way actually to save labor, right? So instead of like racking hard drives, you can have somebody who's somebody do something a little more like, you know, more valuable work, right? And so, so okay, but that gives you a platform and then what do you do with that platform? >>And if you've got your systems automated and you've got this kind of elastic infrastructure underneath you, what you do on top of it is really interesting. So a great example of this is the collaboration that, that we had with running the rel workstation on aws. So you might think like, well why would anybody wanna run a workstation on, on a cloud? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense unless you consider how complex it is to set up, if you have the, the use case here is like industrial workstations, right? So it's animators, people doing computational fluid dynamics, things like this. So these are industries that are extremely data heavy. They have workstations have very large hardware requirements, often with accelerated GPUs and things like this. That is an extremely expensive thing to install on premise anywhere. And if the pandemic taught us anything, it's, if you have a bunch of very expensive talent and they all have to work from a home, it is very difficult to go provide them with, you know, several tens of thousands of dollars worth of worth of worth of workstation equipment. >>And so combine the rail workstation with the AWS infrastructure and now all that workstation computational infrastructure is available on demand and on and available right next to the considerable amount of data that they're analyzing or animating or, or, or working on. So it's a really interesting, it's, it was actually, this is an idea that I was actually born with the pandemic. Yeah. And, and it's kind of a combination of everything that we're talking about, right? It's the supply chain challenges of the customer, It's the lack of lack of talent, making sure that people are being put their best and highest use. And it's also having this kind of elastic, I think, opex heavy infrastructure as opposed to a CapEx heavy infrastructure. >>That's a great example. I think that's illustrates to me what I love about cloud right now is that you can put stuff in, in the cloud and then flex what you need when you need it at in the cloud rather than either ingress or egress data. You, you just more, you get more versatility around the workload needs, whether it's more compute or more storage or other high level services. This is kind of where this NextGen cloud is going. This is where, where, where customers want to go once their workloads are up and running. How do you simplify all this and how do you guys look at this from a joint customer perspective? Because that example I think will be something that all companies will be working on, which is put it in the cloud and flex to the, whatever the workload needs and put it closer to the work compute. I wanna put it there. If I wanna leverage more storage and networking, Well, I'll do that too. It's not one thing. It's gotta flex around what's, how are you guys simplifying this? >>Yeah, I think so for, I'll, I'll just give my point of view and then I'm, I'm very curious to hear what a not has to say about it, but the, I think and think about it in a few dimensions, right? So there's, there is a, technically like any solution that aan a nun's team and my team wanna put together needs to be kind of technically coherent, right? The things need to work well together, but that's not the, that's not even most of the job. Most of the job is actually the ensuring and operational consistency and operational simplicity so that everything is the day-to-day operations of these things kind of work well together. And then also all the way to things like support and even acquisition, right? Making sure that all the contracts work together, right? It's a really in what, So when Aon and I think about places of working together, it's very rare that we're just looking at a technical collaboration. It's actually a holistic collaboration across support acquisition as well as all the engineering that we have to do. >>And on your, your view on how you're simplifying it with Red Hat for your joint customers making Collabo >>Yeah. Gun, Yeah. Gunner covered it. Well I think the, the benefit here is that Red Hat has been the leading Linux distribution provider. So they have a lot of experience. AWS has been the leading cloud provider. So we have both our own point of views, our own learning from our respective set of customers. So the way we try to simplify and bring these things together is working closely. In fact, I sometimes joke internally that if you see Ghana and my team talking to each other on a call, you cannot really tell who who belongs to which team. Because we're always figuring out, okay, how do we simplify discount experience? How do we simplify programs? How do we simplify go to market? How do we simplify the product pieces? So it's really bringing our, our learning and share our perspective to the table and then really figure out how do we actually help customers make progress. Rosa that we talked about is a great example of that, you know, you know, we, together we figured out, hey, there is a need for customers to have this capability in AWS and we went out and built it. So those are just some of the examples in how both teams are working together to simplify the experience, make it complete, make it more coherent. >>Great. That's awesome. That next question is really around how you help organizations with the sustainability piece, how to support them, simplifying it. But first, before we get into that, what is the core problem around this sustainability discussion we're talking about here, supply chain sustainability, What is the core challenge? Can you both share your thoughts on what that problem is and what the solution looks like and then we can get into advice? >>Yeah. Well from my point of view, it's, I think, you know, one of the lessons of the last three years is every organization is kind of taking a careful look at how resilient it is. Or ever I should say, every organization learned exactly how resilient it was, right? And that comes from both the, the physical challenges and the logistics challenges that everyone had. The talent challenges you mentioned earlier. And of course the, the software challenges, you know, as everyone kind of embarks on this, this digital transformation journey that, that we've all been talking about. And I think, so I really frame it as, as resilience, right? And and resilience is at bottom is really about ensuring that you have options and that you have choices. The more choices you have, the more options you have, the more resilient you, you and your organization is going to be. And so I know that that's how, that's how I approach the market. I'm pretty sure that's exact, that's how AON is, has approaching the market, is ensuring that we are providing as many options as possible to customers so that they can assemble the right, assemble the right pieces to create a, a solution that works for their particular set of challenges or their unique set of challenges and and unique context. Aon, is that, does that sound about right to you? Yeah, >>I think you covered it well. I, I can speak to another aspect of sustainability, which is becoming increasingly top of mind for our customer is like how do they build products and services and solutions and whether it's supply chain or anything else which is sustainable, which is for the long term good of the, the planet. And I think that is where we have been also being very intentional and focused in how we design our data center. How we actually build our cooling system so that we, those are energy efficient. You know, we, we are on track to power all our operations with renewable energy by 2025, which is five years ahead of our initial commitment. And perhaps the most obvious example of all of this is our work with arm processors Graviton three, where, you know, we are building our own chip to make sure that we are designing energy efficiency into the process. And you know, we, there's the arm graviton, three arm processor chips, there are about 60% more energy efficient compared to some of the CD six comparable. So all those things that are also we are working on in making sure that whatever our customers build on our platform is long term sustainable. So that's another dimension of how we are working that into our >>Platform. That's awesome. This is a great conversation. You know, the supply chain is on both sides, physical and software. You're starting to see them come together in great conversations and certainly moving workloads to the cloud running in more efficiently will help on the sustainability side, in my opinion. Of course, you guys talked about that and we've covered it, but now you start getting into how to refactor, and this is a big conversation we've been having lately, is as you not just lift and ship but re-platform and refactor, customers are seeing great advantages on this. So I have to ask you guys, how are you helping customers and organizations support sustainability and, and simplify the complex environment that has a lot of potential integrations? Obviously API's help of course, but that's the kind of baseline, what's the, what's the advice that you give customers? Cause you know, it can look complex and it becomes complex, but there's an answer here. What's your thoughts? >>Yeah, I think so. Whenever, when, when I get questions like this from from customers, the, the first thing I guide them to is, we talked earlier about this notion of consistency and how important that is. It's one thing, it it, it is one way to solve the problem is to create an entirely new operational model, an entirely new acquisition model and an entirely new stack of technologies in order to be more sustainable. That is probably not in the cards for most folks. What they want to do is have their existing estate and they're trying to introduce sustainability into the work that they are already doing. They don't need to build another silo in order to create sustainability, right? And so there have to be, there has to be some common threads, there has to be some common platforms across the existing estate and your more sustainable estate, right? >>And, and so things like Red Hat enterprise Linux, which can provide this kind of common, not just a technical substrate, but a common operational substrate on which you can build these solutions if you have a common platform on which you are building solutions, whether it's RHEL or whether it's OpenShift or any of our other platforms that creates options for you underneath. So that in some cases maybe you need to run things on premise, some things you need to run in the cloud, but you don't have to profoundly change how you work when you're moving from one place to another. >>And that, what's your thoughts on, on the simplification? >>Yeah, I mean think that when you talk about replatforming and refactoring, it is a daunting undertaking, you know, in today's, in the, especially in today's fast paced work. So, but the good news is you don't have to do it by yourself. Customers don't have to do it on their own. You know, together AWS and Red Hat, we have our rich partner ecosystem, you know AWS over AWS has over a hundred thousand partners that can help you take that journey, the transformation journey. And within AWS and working with our partners like Red Hat, we make sure that we have all in, in my mind there are really three big pillars that you have to have to make sure that customers can successfully re-platform refactor their applications to the modern cloud architecture. You need to have the rich set of services and tools that meet their different scenarios, different use cases. Because no one size fits all. You have to have the right programs because sometimes customers need those incentives, they need those, you know, that help in the first step and last but no needs, they need training. So all of that, we try to cover that as we work with our customers, work with our partners and that is where, you know, together we try to help customers take that step, which is, which is a challenging step to take. >>Yeah. You know, it's great to talk to you guys, both leaders in your field. Obviously Red hats, well story history. I remember the days back when I was provisioning, loading OSS on hardware with, with CDs, if you remember, that was days gunner. But now with high level services, if you look at this year's reinvent, and this is like kind of my final question for the segment is then we'll get your reaction to is last year we talked about higher level services. I sat down with Adam Celski, we talked about that. If you look at what's happened this year, you're starting to see people talk about their environment as their cloud. So Amazon has the gift of the CapEx, the all that, all that investment and people can operate on top of it. They're calling that environment their cloud. Okay, For the first time we're seeing this new dynamic where it's like they have a cloud, but they're Amazon's the CapEx, they're operating. So you're starting to see the operational visibility gun around how to operate this environment. And it's not hybrid this, that it's just, it's cloud. This is kind of an inflection point. Do you guys agree with that or, or having a reaction to that statement? Because I, I think this is kind of the next gen super cloud-like capability. It's, it's, we're going, we're building the cloud. It's now an environment. It's not talking about private cloud, this cloud, it's, it's all cloud. What's your reaction? >>Yeah, I think, well I think it's a very natural, I mean we used words like hybrid cloud, multi-cloud, if, I guess super cloud is what the kids are saying now, right? It's, it's all, it's all describing the same phenomena, right? Which is, which is being able to take advantage of lots of different infrastructure options, but still having something that creates some commonality among them so that you can, so that you can manage them effectively, right? So that you can have kind of uniform compliance across your estate so that you can have kind of, you can make the best use of your talent across the estate. I mean this is a, this is, it's a very natural thing. >>They're calling it cloud, the estate is the cloud. >>Yeah. So yeah, so, so fine if it, if it means that we no longer have to argue about what's multi-cloud and what's hybrid cloud, I think that's great. Let's just call it cloud. >>And what's your reaction, cuz this is kind of the next gen benefits of, of higher level services combined with amazing, you know, compute and, and resource at the infrastructure level. What's your, what's your view on that? >>Yeah, I think the construct of a unified environment makes sense for customers who have all these use cases which require, like for instance, if you are doing some edge computing and you're running it WS outpost or you know, wave lent and these things. So, and, and it is, it is fear for customer to say, think that hey, this is one environment, same set of tooling that they wanna build that works across all their different environments. That is why we work with partners like Red Hat so that customers who are running Red Hat Enterprise Linux on premises and who are running in AWS get the same level of support, get the same level of security features, all of that. So from that sense, it actually makes sense for us to build these capabilities in a way that customers don't have to worry about, Okay, now I'm actually in the AWS data center versus I'm running outpost on premises. It is all one. They, they just use the same set of cli command line APIs and all of that. So in that sense, it's actually helps customers have that unification so that that consistency of experience helps their workforce and be more productive versus figuring out, okay, what do I do, which tool I use? Where >>And on you just nailed it. This is about supply chain sustainability, moving the workloads into a cloud environment. You mentioned wavelength, this conversation's gonna continue. We haven't even talked about the edge yet. This is something that's gonna be all about operating these workloads at scale and all the, with the cloud services. So thanks for sharing that and we'll pick up that edge piece later. But for reinvent right now, this is really the key conversation. How to bake the sustained supply chain work in a complex environment, making it simpler. And so thanks for sharing your insights here on the cube. >>Thanks. Thanks for having >>Us. Okay, this is the cube's coverage of ados Reinvent 22. I'm John Fur, your host. Thanks for watching.

(bright upbeat music) >> Greetings, brilliant community and thank you so much for tuning in to theCUBE here for the last three days where we've been live from Detroit, Michigan. I've had the pleasure of spending this week with Lisa Martin and John Furrier. Thank you both so much for hanging out, for inviting me into the CUBE family. It's our first show together, it's been wonderful. >> Thank you. >> You nailed it. >> Oh thanks, sweetheart. >> Great job. Great job team, well done. Free wall to wall coverage, it's what we do. We stay till everyone else-- >> Savannah: 100 percent. >> Everyone else leaves, till they pull the plug. >> Lisa: Till they turn the lights out. We're still there. >> Literally. >> Literally last night. >> Still broadcasting. >> Whatever takes to get the stories and get 'em out there at scale. >> Yeah. >> Great time. >> 33. 33 different segments too. Very impressive. John, I'm curious, you're a trend watcher and you've been at every single KubeCon. >> Yep. >> What are the trends this year? Give us the breakdown. >> I think CNCF does this, it's a hard job to balance all the stakeholders. So one, congratulations to the CNCF for another great KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. It is really hard to balance bringing in the experts who, as time goes by, seven years we've been all of, as you said, you get experts, you get seniority, and people who can be mentors, 60% new people. You have vendors who are sponsoring and there's always people complaining and bitching and moaning. They want this, they want that. It's always hard and they always do a good job of balancing it. We're lucky that we get to scale the stories with CUBE and that's been great. We had some great stories here, but it's a great community and again, they're inclusive. As I've said before, we've talked about it. This year though is an inflection point in my opinion, because you're seeing the developer ecosystem growing so fast. It's global. You're seeing events pop up, you're seeing derivative events. CNCF is at the center point and they have to maintain the culture of developer experts, maintainers, while balancing the newbies. And that's going to be >> Savannah: Mm-hmm. really hard. And they've done a great job. We had a great conversation with them. So great job. And I think it's going to continue. I think the attendance metric is a little bit of a false positive. There's a lot of online people who didn't come to Detroit this year. And I think maybe the combination of the venue, the city, or just Covid preferences may not look good on paper, on the numbers 'cause it's not a major step up in attendance. It's still bigger, but the community, I think, is going to continue to grow. I'm bullish on it. >> Yeah, I mean at least we did see double the number of people that we had in Los Angeles. Very curious. I think Amsterdam, where we'll be next with CNCF in the spring, in April. I think that's actually going to be a better pulse check. We'll be in Europe, we'll see what's going on. >> John: Totally. >> I mean, who doesn't like Amsterdam in the springtime? Lisa, what have been some of your observations? >> Oh, so many observations. The evolution of the conference, the hallway track conversations really shifting towards adjusting to the enterprise. The enterprise momentum that we saw here as well. We had on the show, Ford. >> Savannah: Yes. We had MassMutual, we had ING, that was today. Home Depot is here. We are seeing all these big companies that we know and love, become software companies right before our eyes. >> Yeah. Well, and I think we forget that software powers our entire world. And so of course they're going to have to be here. So much running on Kubernetes. It's on-prem, it's at the edge, it's everywhere. It's exciting. Woo, I'm excited. John, what do you think is the number one story? This is your question. I love asking you this question. What is the number one story out KubeCon? >> Well, I think the top story is a combination of two things. One is the evolution of Cloud Native. We're starting to see web assembly. That's a big hyped up area. It got a lot of attention. >> Savannah: Yeah. That's kind of teething out the future. >> Savannah: Rightfully so. The future of this kind of lightweight. You got the heavy duty VMs, you got Kubernetes and containers, and now this web assembly, shows a trajectory of apps, server-like environment. And then the big story is security. Software supply chain is, to me, was the number one consistent theme. At almost all the interviews, in the containers, and the workflows, >> Savannah: Very hot. software supply chain is real. The CD Foundation mentioned >> Savannah: Mm-hmm. >> they had 16,000 vulnerabilities identified in their code base. They were going to automate that. So again, >> Savannah: That was wild. >> That's the top story. The growth of open source exposes potential vulnerabilities with security. So software supply chain gets my vote. >> Did you hear anything that surprised you? You guys did this great preview of what you thought we were going to hear and see and feel and touch at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2022. You talked about, for example, the, you know, healthcare financial services being early adopters of this. Anything surprise either one of you in terms of what you predicted versus what we saw? Savannah, let's start with you. >> You know what really surprised me, and this is ironic, so I'm a community gal by trade. But I was really just impressed by the energy that everyone brought here and the desire to help. The thing about the open source community that always strikes me is, I mean 187 different countries participating. You've got, I believe it's something like 175,000 people contributing to the 140 projects plus that CNCF is working on. But that culture of collaboration extends far beyond just the CNCF projects. Everyone here is keen to help each other. We had the conversation just before about the teaching and the learnings that are going on here. They brought in Detroit's students to come and learn, which is just the most heartwarming story out of this entire thing. And I think it's just the authenticity of everyone in this community and their passion. Even though I know it's here, it still surprises me to see it in the flesh. Especially in a place like Detroit. >> It's nice. >> Yeah. >> It's so nice to see it. And you bring up a good point. It's very authentic. >> Savannah: It's super authentic. >> I mean, what surprised me is one, the Wasm, or web assembly. I didn't see that coming at the scale of the conversation. It sucked a lot of options out of the room in my opinion, still hyped up. But this looks like it's got a good trajectory. I like that. The other thing that surprised me that was a learning was my interview with Solo.io, Idit, and Brian Gracely, because he's a CUBE alumni and former host of theCUBE, and analyst at Wikibon, was how their go-to-market was an example of a modern company in Covid with a clean sheet of paper and smart people, they're just doing things different. They're in Slack with their customers. And I walked away with, "Wow that's like a playbook that's not, was never, in the go-to-market VC-backed company playbook." I thought that was, for me, a personal walk away saying that's important. I like how they did that. And there's a lot of companies I think could learn from that. Especially as the recession comes where partnering with customers has always been a top priority. And how they did that was very clever, very effective, very efficient. So I walked away with that saying, "I think that's going to be a standard." So that was a pleasant surprise. >> That was a great surprise. Also, that's a female-founded company, which is obviously not super common. And the growth that they've experienced, to your point, really being catalyzed by Covid, is incredibly impressive. I mean they have some massive brand name customers, Amex, BMW for example. >> Savannah: Yeah. >> Great point. >> And I interviewed her years ago and I remember saying to myself, "Wow, she's impressive." I liked her. She's a player. A player for sure. And she's got confidence. Even on the interview she said, "We're just better, we have better product." And I just like the point of view. Very customer-focused but confident. And I just took, that's again, a great company. And again, I'm not surprised that Brian Gracely left Red Hat to go work there. So yeah, great, great call there. And of course other things that weren't surprising that I predicted, Red Hat continued to invest. They continue to bring people on theCUBE, they support theCUBE but more importantly they have a good strategy. They're in that multicloud positioning. They're going to have an opportunity to get a bite at the apple. And I what I call the supercloud. As enterprises try to go and be mainstream, Cloud Native, they're going to need some help. And Red Hat is always has the large enterprise customers. >> Savannah: What surprised you, Lisa? >> Oh my gosh, so many things. I think some of the memorable conversations that we had. I love talking with some of the enterprises that we mentioned, ING Bank for example. You know, or institutions that have been around for 100 plus years. >> Savannah: Oh, yeah. To see not only how much they've innovated and stayed relevant to meet the demands of the consumer, which are only increasing, but they're doing so while fostering a culture of innovation and a culture that allows these technology leaders to really grow within the organization. That was a really refreshing conversation that I think we had. 'Cause you can kind of >> Savannah: Absolutely. think about these old stodgy companies. Nah, of course they're going to digitize. >> Thinking about working for the bank, I think it's boring. >> Right? >> Yeah. And they were talking about, in fact, those great t-shirts that they had on, >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. were all about getting more people to understand how fun it is to work in tech for ING Bank in different industries. You don't just have to work for the big tech companies to be doing really cool stuff in technology. >> What I really liked about this show is we had two female hosts. >> Savannah: Yeah. >> How about that? Come on. >> Hey, well done, well done on your recruitment there, champ. >> Yes, thank you boss. (John laughs) >> And not to mention we have a really all-star production team. I do just want to give them a little shout out. To all the wonderful folks behind the lines here. (people clapping) >> John: Brendan. Good job. >> Yeah. Without Brendan, Anderson, Noah, and Andrew, we would be-- >> Of course Frank Faye holding it back there too. >> Yeah, >> Of course, Frank. >> I mean, without the business development wheels on the ship we'd really be in an unfortunate spot. I almost just swore on television. We're not going to do that. >> It's okay. No one's regulating. >> Yeah. (all laugh) >> Elon Musk just took over Twitter. >> It was a close call. >> That's right! >> It's going to be a hellscape. >> Yeah, I mean it's, shit's on fire. So we'll just see what happens next. I do, I really want to talk about this because I think it's really special. It's an ethos and some magic has happened here. Let's talk about Detroit. Let's talk about what it means to be here. We saw so many, and I can't stress this enough, but I think it really matters. There was a commitment to celebrating place here. Lisa, did you notice this too? >> Absolutely. And it surprised me because we just don't see that at conferences. >> Yeah. We're so used to going to the same places. >> Right. >> Vegas. Vegas, Vegas. More Vegas. >> Your tone-- >> San Francisco >> (both laugh) sums up my feelings. Yes. >> Right? >> Yeah. And, well, it's almost robotic but, and the fact that we're like, oh Detroit, really? But there was so much love for this city and recognizing and supporting its residents that we just don't see at conferences. You uncovered a lot of that with your swag-savvy segments, >> Savannah: Yeah. >> And you got more of that to talk about today. >> Don't worry, it's coming. Yeah. (laughs) >> What about you? Have you enjoyed Detroit? I know you hadn't been here in a long time, when we did our intro session. >> I think it's a bold move for the CNCF to come here and celebrate. What they did, from teaching the kids in the city some tech, they had a session. I thought that was good. >> Savannah: Loved that. I think it was a risky move because a lot of people, like, weren't sure if they were going to fly to Detroit. So some say it might impact the attendance. I thought they did a good job. Their theme, Road Ahead. Nice tie in. >> Savannah: Yeah. And so I think I enjoyed Detroit. The weather was great. It didn't rain. Nice breeze outside. >> Yeah. >> The weather was great, the restaurants are phenomenal. So Detroit's a good city. I missed some hockey games. I'd love to see the Red Wings play. Missed that game. But we always come back. >> I think it's really special. I mean, every time I talked to a company about their swag, that had sourced it locally, there was a real reason for this story. I mean even with Kasten in that last segment when I noticed that they had done Carhartt beanies, Carhartt being a Michigan company. They said, "I'm so glad you noticed. That's why we did it." And I think that type of, the community commitment to place, it all comes back to community. One of the bigger themes of the show. But that passion and that support, we need more of that. >> Lisa: Yeah. >> And the thing about the guests we've had this past three days have been phenomenal. We had a diverse set of companies, individuals come on theCUBE, you know, from Scott Johnston at Docker. A really one on one. We had a great intense conversation. >> Savannah: Great way to kick it off. >> We shared a lot of inside baseball, about Docker, super important company. You know, impressed with companies like Platform9 it's been around since the OpenStack days who are now in a relevant position. Rafi Systems, hot startup, they don't have a lot of resources, a lot of guerilla marketing going on. So I love to see the mix of startups really contributing. The big players are here. So it's a real great mix of companies. And I thought the interviews were phenomenal, like you said, Ford. We had, Kubia launched on theCUBE. >> Savannah: Yes. >> That's-- >> We snooped the location for KubeCon North America. >> You did? >> Chicago, everyone. In case you missed it, Bianca was nice enough to share that with us. >> We had Sarbjeet Johal, CUBE analyst came on, Keith Townsend, yesterday with you guys. >> We had like analyst speed dating last night. (all laugh) >> How'd that go? (laughs) >> It was actually great. One of the things that they-- >> Did they hug and kiss at the end? >> Here's the funny thing is that they were debating the size of the CNC app. One thinks it's too big, one thinks it's too small. And I thought, is John Goldilocks? (John laughs) >> Savannah: Yeah. >> What is John going to think about that? >> Well I loved that segment. I thought, 'cause Keith and Sarbjeet argue with each other on Twitter all the time. And I heard Keith say before, he went, "Yeah let's have it out on theCUBE." So that was fun to watch. >> Thank you for creating this forum for us to have that kind of discourse. >> Lisa: Yes, thank you. >> Well, it wouldn't be possible without the sponsors. Want to thank the CNCF. >> Absolutely. >> And all the ecosystem partners and sponsors that make theCUBE possible. We love doing this. We love getting the stories. No story's too small for theCUBE. We'll go with it. Do whatever it takes. And if it wasn't for the sponsors, the community wouldn't get all the great knowledge. So, and thank you guys. >> Hey. Yeah, we're, we're happy to be here. Speaking of sponsors and vendors, should we talk a little swag? >> Yeah. >> What do you guys think? All right. Okay. So now this is becoming a tradition on theCUBE so I'm very delighted, the savvy swag segment. I do think it's interesting though. I mean, it's not, this isn't just me shouting out folks and showing off t-shirts and socks. It's about standing out from the noise. There's a lot of players in this space. We got a lot of CNCF projects and one of the ways to catch the attention of people walking the show floor is to have interesting swag. So we looked for the most unique swag on Wednesday and I hadn't found this yet, but I do just want to bring it up. Oops, I think I might have just dropped it. This is cute. Is, most random swag of the entire show goes to this toothbrush. I don't really have more in terms of the pitch there because this is just random. (Lisa laughs) >> But so, everyone needs that. >> John: So what's their tagline? >> And you forget these. >> Yeah, so the idea was to brush your cloud bills. So I think they're reducing the cost of-- >> Kind of a hygiene angle. >> Yeah, yeah. Very much a hygiene angle, which I found a little ironic in this crowd to be completely honest with you. >> John: Don't leave the lights on theCUBE. That's what they say. >> Yeah. >> I mean we are theCUBE so it would be unjust of me not to show you a Rubik's cube. This is actually one of those speed cubes. I'm not going to be able to solve this for you with one hand on camera, but apparently someone did it in 17 seconds at the booth. Knowing this audience, not surprising to me at all. Today we are, and yesterday, was the t-shirt contest. Best t-shirt contest. Today we really dove into the socks. So this is, I noticed this trend at KubeCon in Los Angeles last year. Lots of different socks, clouds obviously a theme for the cloud. I'm just going to lay these out. Lots of gamers in the house. Not surprising. Here on this one. >> John: Level up. >> Got to level up. I love these 'cause they say, "It's not a bug." And anyone who's coded has obviously had to deal with that. We've got, so Star Wars is a huge theme here. There's Lego sets. >> John: I think it's Star Trek. But. >> That's Star Trek? >> John: That's okay. >> Could be both. (Lisa laughs) >> John: Nevermind, I don't want to. >> You can flex your nerd and geek with us anytime you want, John. I don't mind getting corrected. I'm all about, I'm all about the truth. >> Star Trek. Star Wars. Okay, we're all the same. Okay, go ahead. >> Yeah, no, no, this is great. Slim.ai was nice enough to host us for dinner on Tuesday night. These are their lovely cloud socks. You can see Cloud Native, obviously Cloud Native Foundation, cloud socks, whole theme here. But if we're going to narrow it down to some champions, I love these little bee elephants from Raft. And when I went up to these guys, I actually probably would've called these my personal winner. They said, again, so community focused and humble here at CNCF, they said that Wiz was actually the champion according to the community. These unicorn socks are pretty excellent. And I have to say the branding is flawless. So we'll go ahead and give Wiz the win on the best sock contest. >> John: For the win. >> Yeah, Wiz for the win. However, the thing that I am probably going to use the most is this really dope Detroit snapback from Kasten. So I'm going to be rocking this from now on for the rest of the segment as well. And I feel great about this snapback. >> Looks great. Looks good on you. >> Yeah. >> Thanks John. (John laughs) >> So what are we expecting between now and KubeCon in Amsterdam? >> Well, I think it's going to be great to see how they, the European side, it's a chill show. It's great. Brings in the European audience from the global perspective. I always love the EU shows because one, it's a great destination. Amsterdam's going to be a great location. >> Savannah: I'm pumped. >> The American crowd loves going over there. All the event cities that they choose are always awesome. I missed Valencia cause I got Covid. I'm really bummed about that. But I love the European shows. It's just a little bit, it's high intensity, but it's the European chill. They got a little bit more of that siesta vibe going on. >> Yeah. >> And it's just awesome. >> Yeah, >> And I think that the mojo that carried throughout this week, it's really challenging to not only have a show that's five days, >> but to go through all week, >> Savannah: Seriously. >> to a Friday at 4:00 PM Eastern Time, and still have the people here, the energy and all the collaboration. >> Savannah: Yeah. >> The conversations that are still happening. I think we're going to see a lot more innovation come spring 2023. >> Savannah: Mm-hmm. >> Yeah. >> So should we do a bet, somebody's got to buy dinner? Who, well, I guess the folks who lose this will buy dinner for the other one. How many attendees do you think we'll see in Amsterdam? So we had 4,000, >> Oh, I'm going to lose this one. >> roughly in Los Angeles. Priyanka was nice enough to share with us, there was 8,000 here in Detroit. And I'm talking in person, we're not going to meddle this with the online. >> 6500. >> Lisa: I was going to say six, six K. >> I'm going 12,000. >> Ooh! >> I'm going to go ahead and go big I'm going to go opposite Price Is Right. >> One dollar. >> Yeah. (all laugh) That's exactly where I was driving with it. I'm going, I'm going absolutely all in. I think the momentum here is building. I think if we look at the numbers from-- >> John: You could go Family Feud >> Yeah, yeah, exactly. And they mentioned that they had 11,000 people who have taken their Kubernetes course in that first year. If that's a benchmark and an indicator, we've got the veteran players here. But I do think that, I personally think that the hype of Kubernetes has actually preceded adoption. If you look at the data and now we're finally tipping over. I think the last two years we were on the fringe and right now we're there. It's great. (voice blares loudly on loudspeaker) >> Well, on that note (all laugh) On that note, actually, on that note, as we are talking, so I got to give cred to my cohosts. We deal with a lot of background noise here on theCUBE. It is a live show floor. There's literally someone on an e-scooter behind me. There's been Pong going on in the background. The sound will haunt the three of us for the rest of our lives, as well as the production crew. (Lisa laughs) And, and just as we're sitting here doing this segment last night, they turned the lights off on us, today they're letting everyone know that the event is over. So on that note, I just want to say, Lisa, thank you so much. Such a warm welcome to the team. >> Thank you. >> John, what would we do without you? >> You did an amazing job. First CUBE, three days. It's a big show. You got staying power, I got to say. >> Lisa: Absolutely. >> Look at that. Not bad. >> You said it on camera now. >> Not bad. >> So you all are stuck with me. (all laugh) >> A plus. Great job to the team. Again, we do so much flow here. Brandon, Team, Andrew, Noah, Anderson, Frank. >> They're doing our hair, they're touching up makeup. They're helping me clean my teeth, staying hydrated. >> We look good because of you. >> And the guests. Thanks for coming on and spending time with us. And of course the sponsors, again, we can't do it without the sponsors. If you're watching this and you're a sponsor, support theCUBE, it helps people get what they need. And also we're do a lot more segments around community and a lot more educational stuff. >> Savannah: Yeah. So we're going to do a lot more in the EU and beyond. So thank you. >> Yeah, thank you. And thank you to everyone. Thank you to the community, thank you to theCUBE community and thank you for tuning in, making it possible for us to have somebody to talk to on the other side of the camera. My name is Savannah Peterson for the last time in Detroit, Michigan. Thanks for tuning into theCUBE. >> Okay, we're done. (bright upbeat music)

>>Good afternoon, brilliant humans, and welcome back to the Cube. We're live in Detroit, Michigan at Cub Con, and I'm joined by John Furrier. John three exciting days buzzing. How you doing? >>That's great. I mean, we're coming down to the third day. We're keeping the energy going, but this segment's gonna be awesome. The CD foundation's doing amazing work. Developers are gonna be running businesses and workflows are changing. Productivity's the top conversation, and you're gonna start to see a coalescing of the communities who are continuous delivery, and it's gonna be awesome. >>And, and our next guess is an outstanding person to talk about this. We are joined by Stephen Chin, the chair of the CD Foundation. Steven, thanks so much for being here. >>No, no, my pleasure. I mean, this has been an amazing week quote that CubeCon with all of the announcements, all of the people who came out here to Detroit and, you know, fantastic. Like just walking around, you bump into all the right people here. Plus we held a CD summit zero day events, and had a lot of really exciting announcements this week. >>Gotta love the shirt. I gotta say, it's one of my favorites. Love the logos. Love the love the branding. That project got traction. What's the news in the CD foundation? I tried to sneak in the back. I got a little laid into your co-located event. It was packed. Everyone's engaged. It was really looked, look really cool. Give us the update. >>What's the news? Yeah, I know. So we, we had a really, really powerful event. All the key practitioners, the open source leads and folks were there. And one of, one of the things which I think we've done a really good job in the past six months with the CD foundation is getting back to the roots and focusing on technical innovation, right? This is what drives foundations, having strong projects, having people who are building innovation, and also bringing in a new innovation. So one of the projects which we added to the CD foundation this week is called Persia. So it's a, it's a decentralized package repository for getting open source libraries. And it solves a lot of the problems which you get when you have centralized infrastructure. You don't have the right security certificates, you don't have the right verification libraries. And these, these are all things which large companies provision and build out inside of their infrastructure. But the open source communities don't have the benefit of the same sort of really, really strong architecture. A lot of, a lot of the systems we depend upon. It's >>A good point, yeah. >>Yeah. I mean, if you think about the systems that developers depend upon, we depend upon, you know, npm, ruby Gems, Mayn Central, and these systems been around for a while. Like they serve the community well, right? They're, they're well supported by the companies and it's, it's, it's really a great contribution that they give us. But every time there's an outage or there's a security issue, guess, guess how many security issues that our, our research team found at npm? Just ballpark. >>74. >>So there're >>It's gotta be thousands. I mean, it's gotta be a lot of tons >>Of Yeah, >>They, they're currently up to 60,000 >>Whoa. >>Vulnerable, malicious packages in NPM and >>Oh my gosh. So that's a super, that's a jar number even. I know it was gonna be huge, but Holy mo. >>Yeah. So that's a software supply chain in actually right there. So that's, that's open source. Everything's out there. What's, how do, how does, how do you guys fix that? >>Yeah, so per peria kind of shifts the whole model. So when, when you think about a system that can be sustained, it has to be something which, which is not just one company. It has to be a, a, a set of companies, be vendor neutral and be decentralized. So that's why we donated it to the Continuous Delivery Foundation. So that can be that governance body, which, which makes sure it's not a single company, it is to use modern technologies. So you, you, you just need something which is immutable, so it can't be changed. So you can rely on it. It has to have a strong transaction ledger so you can see all of the history of it. You can build up your software, build materials off of it, and it, it has to have a strong peer-to-peer architecture, so it can be sustained long term. >>Steven, you mentioned something I want to just get back to. You mentioned outages and disruption. I, you didn't, you didn't say just the outages, but this whole disruption angle is interesting if something happens. Talk about the impact of the developer. They stalled, inefficiencies create basically disruption. >>No, I mean, if, if, so, so if you think about most DevOps teams in big companies, they support hundreds or thousands of teams and an hour of outage. All those developers, they, they can't program, they can't work. And that's, that's a huge loss of productivity for the company. Now, if you, if you take that up a level when MPM goes down for an hour, how many millions of man hours are wasted by not being able to get your builds working by not being able to get your codes to compile. Like it's, it's >>Like, yeah, I mean, it's almost hard to fathom. I mean, everyone's, It's stopped. Exactly. It's literally like having the plug pulled >>Exactly on whenever you're working on, That's, that's the fundamental problem we're trying to solve. Is it, it needs to be on a, like a well supported, well architected peer to peer network with some strong backing from big companies. So the company is working on Persia, include J Frog, which who I work for, Docker, Oracle. We have Deploy hub, Huawei, a whole bunch of other folks who are also helping out. And when you look at all of those folks, they all have different interests, but it's designed in a way where no single party has control over the network. So really it's, it's a system system. You, you're not relying upon one company or one logo. You're relying upon a well-architected open source implementation that everyone can rely >>On. That's shared software, but it's kind of a fault tolerant feature too. It's like, okay, if something happens here, you have a distributed piece of it, decentralized, you're not gonna go down. You can remediate. All right, so where's this go next? I mean, cuz we've been talking about the role of developer. This needs to be a modern, I won't say modern upgrade, but like a modern workflow or value chain. What's your vision? How do you see that? Cuz you're the center of the CD foundation coming together. People are gonna be coalescing multiple groups. Yeah. >>What's the, No, I think this is a good point. So there, there's a, a lot of different continuous delivery, continuous integration technologies. We're actually, from a Linux Foundation standpoint, we're coalescing all the continued delivery events into one big conference >>Next. You just made an announcement about this earlier this week. Tell us about CD events. What's going on, what's in, what's in the cooker? >>Yeah, and I think one of the big announcements we had was the 0.1 release of CD events. And CD events allows you to take all these systems and connect them in an event scalable, event oriented architecture. The first integration is between Tecton and Capin. So now you can get CD events flowing cleanly between your, your continuous delivery and your observability. And this extends through your entire DevOps pipeline. We all, we all need a standards based framework Yep. For how we get all the disparate continuous integration, continuous delivery, observability systems to, to work together. That's also high performance. It scales with our needs and it, it kind of gives you a future architecture to build on top of. So a lot of the companies I was talking with at the CD summit Yeah. They were very excited about not only using this with the projects we announced, but using this internally as an architecture to build their own DevOps pipelines on. >>I bet that feels good to hear. >>Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. >>Yeah. You mentioned Teton, they just graduated. I saw how many projects have graduated? >>So we have two graduated projects right now. We have Jenkins, which is the first graduated project. Now Tecton is also graduated. And I think this shows that for Tecton it was, it was time, the very mature project, great support, getting a lot of users and having them join the set of graduated projects. And the continuous delivery foundation is a really strong portfolio. And we have a bunch of other projects which also are on their way towards graduation. >>Feels like a moment of social proof I bet. >>For you all. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, it's really good. Yeah. >>How long has the CD Foundation been around? >>The CD foundation has been around for, i, I won't wanna say the exact number of years, a few years now. >>Okay. >>But I, I think that it, it was formed because what we wanted is we wanted a foundation which was purpose built. So CNCF is a great foundation. It has a very large umbrella of projects and it takes kind of that big umbrella approach where a lot of different efforts are joining it, a lot of things are happening and you can get good traction, but it produces its own bottlenecks in process. Having a foundation which is just about continuous delivery caters to more of a DevOps, professional DevOps audience. I think this, this gives a good platform for best practices. We're working on a new CDF best practices Yeah. Guide. We're working when use cases with all the member companies. And it, it gives that thought leadership platform for continuous delivery, which you need to be an expert in that area >>And the best practices too. And to identify the issues. Because at the end of the day, with the big thing that's coming out of this is velocity and more developers coming on board. I mean, this is the big thing. More people doing more. Yeah. Well yeah, I mean you take this open source continuous thunder away, you have more developers coming in, they be more productive and then people are gonna even either on the DevOps side or on the straight AP upside. And this is gonna be a huge issue. And the other thing that comes out that I wanna get your thoughts on is the supply chain issue you talked about is hot verifications and certifications of code is such big issue. Can you share your thoughts on that? Because Yeah, this is become, I won't say a business model for some companies, but it's also becoming critical for security that codes verified. >>Yeah. Okay. So I, I think one of, one of the things which we're specifically doing with the Peria project, which is unique, is rather than distributing, for example, libraries that you developed on your laptop and compiled there, or maybe they were built on, you know, a runner somewhere like Travis CI or GitHub actions, all the libraries being distributed on Persia are built by the authorized nodes in the network. And then they're, they're verified across all of the authorized nodes. So you nice, you have a, a gar, the basic guarantee we're giving you is when you download something from the Peria network, you'll get exactly the same binary as if you built it yourself from source. >>So there's a lot of trust >>And, and transparency. Yeah, exactly. And if you remember back to like kind of the seminal project, which kicked off this whole supply chain security like, like whirlwind it was SolarWinds. Yeah. Yeah. And the exact problem they hit was the build ran, it produced a result, they modified the code of the bill of the resulting binary and then they signed it. So if you built with the same source and then you went through that same process a second time, you would've gotten a different result, which was a malicious pre right. Yeah. And it's very hard to risk take, to take a binary file Yep. And determine if there's malicious code in it. Cuz it's not like source code. You can't inspect it, you can't do a code audit. It's totally different. So I think we're solving a key part of this with Persia, where you're freeing open source projects from the possibility of having their binaries, their packages, their end reduces, tampered with. And also upstream from this, you do want to have verification of prs, people doing code reviews, making sure that they're looking at the source code. And I think there's a lot of good efforts going on in the open source security foundation. So I'm also on the governing board of Open ssf >>To Do you sleep? You have three jobs you've said on camera? No, I can't even imagine. Yeah. Didn't >>You just spin that out from this open source security? Is that the new one they >>Spun out? Yeah, So the Open Source Security foundation is one of the new Linux Foundation projects. They, they have been around for a couple years, but they did a big reboot last year around this time. And I think what they really did a good job of now is bringing all the industry players to the table, having dialogue with government agencies, figuring out like, what do we need to do to support open source projects? Is it more investment in memory, safe languages? Do we need to have more investment in, in code audits or like security reviews of opensource projects. Lot of things. And all of those things require money investments. And that's what all the companies, including Jay Frogger doing to advance open source supply chain security. I >>Mean, it's, it's really kind of interesting to watch some different demographics of the developers and the vendors and the customers. On one hand, if you're a hardware person company, you have, you talk zero trust your software, your top trust, so your trusted code, and you got zero trust. It's interesting, depending on where you're coming from, they're all trying to achieve the same thing. It means zero trust. Makes sense. But then also I got code, I I want trust. Trust and verified. So security is in everything now. So code. So how do you see that traversing over? Is it just semantics or what's your view on that? >>The, the right way of looking at security is from the standpoint of the hacker, because they're always looking for >>Well said, very well said, New >>Loop, hope, new loopholes, new exploits. And they're, they're very, very smart people. And I think when you, when you look some >>Of the smartest >>Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I, I work with, well former hackers now, security researchers, >>They converted, they're >>Recruited. But when you look at them, there's like two main classes of like, like types of exploits. So some, some attacker groups. What they're looking for is they're looking for pulse zero days, CVEs, like existing vulnerabilities that they can exploit to break into systems. But there's an increasing number of attackers who are now on the opposite end of the spectrum. And what they're doing is they're creating their own exploits. So, oh, they're for example, putting malicious code into open source projects. Little >>Trojan horse status. Yeah. >>They're they're getting their little Trojan horses in. Yeah. Or they're finding supply chain attacks by maybe uploading a malicious library to NPM or to pii. And by creating these attacks, especially ones that start at the top of the supply chain, you have such a large reach. >>I was just gonna say, it could be a whole, almost gives me chills as we're talking about it, the systemic, So this is this >>Gnarly nation state attackers, like people who wanted serious >>Damages. Engineered hack just said they're high, highly funded. Highly skilled. Exactly. Highly agile, highly focused. >>Yes. >>Teams, team. Not in the teams. >>Yeah. And so, so one, one example of this, which actually netted quite a lot of money for the, for the hacker who exposed it was, you guys probably heard about this, but it was a, an attack where they uploaded a malicious library to npm with the same exact namespace as a corporate library and clever, >>Creepy. >>It's called a dependency injection attack. And what happens is if you, if you don't have the right sort of security package management guidelines inside your company, and it's just looking for the latest version of merging multiple repositories as like a, like a single view. A lot of companies were accidentally picking up the latest version, which was out in npm uploaded by Alex Spearson was the one who did the, the attack. And he simultaneously reported bug bounties on like a dozen different companies and netted 130 k. Wow. So like these sort of attacks that they're real Yep. They're exploitable. And the, the hackers >>Complex >>Are finding these sort of attacks now in our supply chain are the ones who really are the most dangerous. That's the biggest threat to us. >>Yeah. And we have stacker ones out there. You got a bunch of other services, the white hat hackers get the bounties. That's really important. All right. What's next? What's your vision of this show as we end Coan? What's the most important story coming outta Coan in your opinion? And what are you guys doing next? >>Well, I, I actually think this is, this is probably not what most hooks would say is the most exciting story to con, but I find this personally the best is >>I can't wait for this now. >>So, on, on Sunday, the CNCF ran the first kids' day. >>Oh. >>And so they had a, a free kids workshop for, you know, underprivileged kids for >>About, That's >>Detroit area. It was, it was taught by some of the folks from the CNCF community. So Arro, Eric hen my, my older daughter, Cassandra's also an instructor. So she also was teaching a raspberry pie workshop. >>Amazing. And she's >>Here and Yeah, Yeah. She's also here at the show. And when you think about it, you know, there's always, there's, there's, you know, hundreds of announcements this week, A lot of exciting technologies, some of which we've talked about. Yeah. But it's, it's really what matters is the community. >>It this is a community first event >>And the people, and like, if we're giving back to the community and helping Detroit's kids to get better at technology, to get educated, I think that it's a worthwhile for all of us to be here. >>What a beautiful way to close it. That is such, I'm so glad you brought that up and brought that to our attention. I wasn't aware of that. Did you know that was >>Happening, John? No, I know about that. Yeah. No, that was, And that's next generation too. And what we need, we need to get down into the elementary schools. We gotta get to the kids. They're all doing robotics club anyway in high school. Computer science is now, now a >>Sport, in my opinion. Well, I think that if you're in a privileged community, though, I don't think that every school's doing robotics. And >>That's why Well, Cal Poly, Cal Poly and the universities are stepping up and I think CNCF leadership is amazing here. And we need more of it. I mean, I'm, I'm bullish on this. I love it. And I think that's a really great story. No, >>I, I am. Absolutely. And, and it just goes to show how committed CNF is to community, Putting community first and Detroit. There has been such a celebration of Detroit this whole week. Stephen, thank you so much for joining us on the show. Best Wishes with the CD Foundation. John, thanks for the banter as always. And thank you for tuning in to us here live on the cube in Detroit, Michigan. I'm Savannah Peterson and we are having the best day. I hope you are too.

(upbeat synth intro music) >> Hey everyone and welcome to Detroit, Michigan. theCUBE is live at KubeCon CloudNativeCon, North America 2022. Lisa Martin here with John Furrier. John, this event, the keynote that we got out of a little while ago was, standing room only. The Solutions hall is packed. There's so much buzz. The community is continuing to mature. They're continuing to contribute. One of the big topics is Cloud Native at Scale. >> Yeah, I mean, this is a revolution happening. The developers are coming on board. They will be running companies. Developers, structurally, will be transforming companies with just, they got to get powered somewhere. And, I think, the Cloud Native at Scale speaks to getting everything under the covers, scaling up to support developers. In this next segment, we have two Kube alumnis. We're going to talk about Cloud Native at Scale. Some of the things that need to be there in a unified architecture, should be great. >> All right, it's going to be fantastic. Let's go under the covers here, as John mentioned, two alumni with us, Madhura Maskasky joins us, co-founder of Platform9. Sirish Raghuram, also co-founder of Platform9 joins us. Welcome back to theCUBE. Great to have you guys here at KubeCon on the floor in Detroit. >> Thank you for having us. >> Thank you for having us. >> Excited to be here >> So, talk to us. You guys have some news, Madhura, give us the sneak peak. What's going on? >> Definitely, we are very excited. So, we have John, not too long ago we spoke about our very new open source project called Arlon. And, we were talking about the launch of Arlon in terms of its first release and etcetera. And, just fresh hot of the press, we, Platform9 had its 5.6 release which is its most recent release of our product. And there's a number of key interesting announcements that we'd like to share as part of that. I think, the prominent one is, Platform9 added support for EKS Kubernetes cluster management. And, so, this is part of our vision of being able to add value, no matter where you run your Kubernetes clusters, because, Kubernetes or cluster management, is increasingly becoming commodity. And, so, I think the companies that succeed are going to add value on top, and are going to add value in a way that helps end users, developers, DevOps solve problems that they encounter as they start running these environments, with a lot of scale and a lot of diversity. So, towards that, key features in the 5.6 six release. First, is the very first package release of the product online, which is the open source project that we've kicked off to do cluster and application, entire cluster management at scale. And, then there's few other very interesting capabilities coming out of that. >> I want to just highlight something and then get your thoughts on this next, this release 5.6. First of all, 5.6, it's been around for a while, five reps, but, now, more than ever, you mentioned the application in Ops. You're seeing WebAssembly trends, you're seeing developers getting more and more advanced capability. It's going to accelerate their ability to write code and compose applications. So, you're seeing a application tsunami coming. So, the pressure is okay, they're going to need infrastructure to run all that stuff. And, so, you're seeing more clusters being spun up, more intelligence trying to automate. So you got the automation, so you got the dynamic, the power dynamic of developers and then under the covers. What does 5.6 do to push the mission forward for developers? How would you guys summarize that for people watching? what's in it for them right now? >> So it's, I think going back to what you just said, right, the breadth of applications that people are developing on top of something like Kubernetes and Cloud Native, is always growing. So, it's not just a number of clusters, but also the fact that different applications and different development groups need these clusters to be composed differently. So, a certain version of the application may require some set of build components, add-ons, and operators, and extensions. Whereas, a different application may require something entirely different. And, now, you take this in an enterprise context, right. Like, we had a major media company that worked with us. They have more than 10,000 pods being used by thousands of developers. And, you now think about the breadth of applications, the hundreds of different applications being built. how do you consistently build, and compose, and manage, a large number of communities clusters with a a large variety of extensions that these companies are trying to manage? That's really what I think 5.6 is bringing to the table. >> Scott Johnston just was on here early as the CEO of Docker. He said there's more applications being pushed now than in the history of application development combined. There's more and more apps coming, more and more pressure on the system. >> And, that's where, if you go, there's this famous landscape chart of the CNCF ecosystem technologies. And, the problem that people here have is, how do they put it all together? How do they make sense of it? And, what 5.6 and Arlon and what Platform9 is doing is, it's helping you declaratively capture blueprints of these clusters, using templates, and be able to manage a small number of blueprints that helps you make order out of the chaos of these hundreds of different projects, that are all very interesting and powerful. >> So Project Arlon really helping developers produce the configuration and the deployment complexities of Kubernetes at scale. >> That's exactly right. >> Talk about the, the impact on the business side. Ease of use, what's the benefits for 5.6? What's does it turn into for a benefit standpoint? >> Yeah, I think the biggest benefit, right, is being able to do Cloud Native at Scale faster, and while still keeping a very lean Ops team that is able to spend, let's say 70 plus percent of their time, caring for your actual business bread and butter applications, and not for the infrastructure that serves it, right. If you take the analogy of a restaurant, you don't want to spend 70% of your time in building the appliances or setting up your stoves etcetera. You want to spend 90 plus percent of your time cooking your own meal, because, that is your core key ingredient. But, what happens today in most enterprises is, because, of the level of automation, the level of hands-on available tooling, being there or not being there, majority of the ops time, I would say 50, 70% plus, gets spent in making that kitchen set up and ready, right. And, that is exactly what we are looking to solve, online. >> What would a customer look like, or prospect environment look like that would be really ready for platform9? What, is it more apps being pushed, big push on application development, or is it the toil of like really inefficient infrastructure, or gaps in skills of people? What does an environment look like? So, someone needs to look at their environment and say, okay, maybe I should call platform9. What's it look like? >> So, we generally see customers fall into two ends of the barbell, I would say. One, is the advanced communities users that are running, I would say, typically, 30 or more clusters already. These are the people that already know containers. They know, they've container wise... >> Savvy teams. >> They're savvy teams, a lot of them are out here. And for them, the problem is, how do I manage the complexity at scale? Because, now, the problem is how do I scale us? So, that's one end of the barbell. The other end of the barbell, is, how do we help make Kubernetes accessible to companies that, as what I would call the mainstream enterprise. We're in Detroit in Motown, right, And, we're outside of the echo chamber of the Silicon Valley. Here's the biggest truth, right. For all the progress that we made as a community, less than 20% of applications in the enterprise today are running on Kubernetes. So, what does it take? I would say it's probably less than 10%, okay. And, what does it take, to grow that in order of magnitude? That's the other kind of customer that we really serve, is, because, we have technologies like Kube Word, which helps them take their existing applications and start adopting Kubernetes as a directional roadmap, but, while using the existing applications that they have, without refactoring it. So, I would say those are the two ends of the barbell. The early adopters that are looking for an easier way to adopt Kubernetes as an architectural pattern. And, the advanced savvy users, for whom the problem is, how do they operationally solve the complexity of managing at scale. >> And, what is your differentiation message to both of those different user groups, as you talked about in terms of the number of users of Kubernetes so far? The community groundswell is tremendous, but, there's a lot of opportunity there. You talked about some of the barriers. What's your differentiation? What do you come in saying, this is why Platform9 is the right one for you, in the both of these groups. >> And it's actually a very simple message. We are the simplest and easiest way for a new user that is adopting Kubernetes as an architectural pattern, to get started with existing applications that they have, on the infrastructure that they have. Number one. And, for the savvy teams, our technology helps you operate with greater scale, with constrained operations teams. Especially, with the economy being the way it is, people are not going to get a lot more budget to go hire a lot more people, right. So, that all of them are being asked to do more with less. And, our team, our technology, and our teams, help you do more with less. >> I was talking with Phil Estes last night from AWS. He's here, he is one of their engineer open source advocates. He's always on the ground pumping up AWS. They've had great success, Amazon Web Services, with their EKS. A lot of people adopting clusters on the cloud and on-premises. But Amazon's doing well. You guys have, I think, a relationship with AWS. What's that, If I'm an Amazon customer, how do I get involved with Platform9? What's the hook? Where's the value? What's the product look like? >> Yeah, so, and it kind of goes back towards the point we spoke about, which is, Kubernetes is going to increasingly get commoditized. So, customers are going to find the right home whether it's hyperscalers, EKS, AKS, GKE, or their own infrastructure, to run Kubernetes. And, so, where we want to be at, is, with a project like Arlon, Sirish spoke about the barbell strategy, on one end there is these advanced Kubernetes users, majority of them are running Kubernetes on AKS, right? Because, that was the easiest platform that they found to get started with. So, now, they have a challenge of running these 50 to 100 clusters across various regions of Amazon, across their DevTest, their staging, their production. And, that results in a level of chaos that these DevOps or platform... >> So you come in and solve that. >> That is where we come in and we solve that. And it, you know, Amazon or EKS, doesn't give you tooling to solve that, right. It makes it very easy for you to create those number of clusters. >> Well, even in one hyperscale, let's say AWS, you got regions and locations... >> Exactly >> ...that's kind of a super cloud problem, we're seeing, opportunity problem, and opportunity is that, on Amazon, availability zones is one thing, but, now, also, you got regions. >> That is absolutely right. You're on point John. And the way we solve it, is by using infrastructure as a code, by using GitOps principles, right? Where you define it once, you define it in a yaml file, you define exactly how for your DevTest environment you want your entire infrastructure to look like, including EKS. And then you stamp it out. >> So let me, here's an analogy, I'll throw out this. You guys are like, someone learns how to drive a car, Kubernetes clusters, that's got a couple clusters. Then once they know how to drive a car, you give 'em the sports car. You allow them to stay on Amazon and all of a sudden go completely distributed, Edge, Global. >> I would say that a lot of people that we meet, we feel like they're figuring out how to build a car with the kit tools that they have. And we give them a car that's ready to go and doesn't require them to be trying to... ... they can focus on driving the car, rather than trying to build the car. >> You don't want people to stop, once they get the progressions, they hit that level up on Kubernetes, you guys give them the ability to go much bigger and stronger. >> That's right. >> To accelerate that applications. >> Building a car gets old for people at a certain point in time, and they really want to focus on is driving it and enjoying it. >> And we got four right behind us, so, we'll get them involved. So that's... >> But, you're not reinventing the wheel. >> We're not at all, because, what we are building is two very, very differentiated solutions, right. One, is, we're the simplest and easiest way to build and run Cloud Native private clouds. And, this is where the operational complexity of trying to do it yourself. You really have to be a car builder, to be able to do this with our Platform9. This is what we do uniquely that nobody else does well. And, the other end is, we help you operate at scale, in the hyperscalers, right. Those are the two problems that I feel, whether you're on-prem, or in the cloud, these are the two problems people face. How do you run a private cloud more easily, more efficiently? And, how do you govern at scale, especially in the public clouds? >> I want to get to two more points before we run out of time. Arlon and Argo CD as a service. We previously mentioned up coming into KubeCon, but, here, you guys couldn't be more relevant, 'cause Intuit was on stage on the keynote, getting an award for their work. You know, Argo, it comes from Intuit. That ArgoCon was in Mountain View. You guys were involved in that. You guys were at the center of all this super cloud action, if you will, or open source. How does Arlon fit into the Argo extension? What is Argo CD as a service? Who's going to take that one? I want to get that out there, because, Arlon has been talked about a lot. What's the update? >> I can talk about it. So, one of the things that Arlon uses behind the scenes, is it uses Argo CD, open source Argo CD as a service, as its key component to do the continuous deployment portion of its entire, the infrastructure management story, right. So, we have been very strongly partnering with Argo CD. We, really know and respect the Intuit team a lot. We, as part of this effort, in 5.6 release, we've also put out Argo CD as a service, in its GA version, right. Because, the power of running Arlon along with Argo CD as a service, in our mind, is enabling you to run on one end, your infrastructure as a scale, through GitOps, and infrastructure as a code practices. And on the other end, your entire application fleet, at scale, right. And, just marrying the two, really gives you the ability to perform that automation that we spoke about. >> But, and avoid the problem of sprawl when you have distributed teams, you have now things being bolted on, more apps coming out. So, this is really solves that problem, mainly. >> That is exactly right. And if you think of it, the way those problems are solved today, is, kind of in disconnected fashion, which is on one end you have your CI/CD tools, like Argo CD is an excellent one. There's some other choices, which are managed by a separate team to automate your application delivery. But, that team, is disconnected from the team that does the infrastructure management. And the infrastructure management is typically done through a bunch of Terraform scripts, or a bunch of ad hoc homegrown scripts, which are very difficult to manage. >> So, Arlon changes sure, as they change the complexity and also the sprawl. But, that's also how companies can die. They're growing fast, they're adding more capability. That's what trouble starts, right? >> I think in two ways, right. Like one is, as Madhura said, I think one of the common long-standing problems we've had, is, how do infrastructure and application teams communicate and work together, right. And, you've seen Argo's really get adopted by the application teams, but, it's now something that we are making accessible for the infrastructure teams to also bring the best practices of how application teams are managing applications. You can now use that to manage infrastructure, right. And, what that's going to do is, help you ultimately reduce waste, reduce inefficiency, and improve the developer experience. Because, that's what it's all about, ultimately. >> And, I know that you just released 5.6 today, congratulations on that. Any customer feedback yet? Any, any customers that you've been able to talk to, or have early access? >> Yeah, one of our large customers is a large SaaS retail company that is B2C SaaS. And, their feedback has been that this, basically, helps them bring exactly what I said in terms of bring some of the best practices that they wanted to adopt in the application space, down to the infrastructure management teams, right. And, we are also hearing a lot of customers, that I would say, large scale public cloud users, saying, they're really struggling with the complexity of how to tame the complexity of navigating that landscape and making it consumable for organizations that have thousands of developers or more. And that's been the feedback, is that this is the first open source standard mechanism that allows them to kind of reuse something, as opposed to everybody feels like they've had to build ad hoc solutions to solve this problem so far. >> Having a unified infrastructure is great. My final question, for me, before I end up, for Lisa to ask her last question is, if you had to explain Platform9, why you're relevant and cool today, what would you say? >> If I take that? I would say that the reason why Platform9, the reason why we exist, is, putting together a cloud, a hybrid cloud strategy for an enterprise today, historically, has required a lot of DIY, a lot of building your own car. Before you can drive a car, or you can enjoy the car, you really learn to build and operate the car. And that's great for maybe a 100 tech companies of the world, but, for the next 10,000 or 50,000 enterprises, they want to be able to consume a car. And that's why Platform9 exists, is, we are the only company that makes this delightfully simple and easy for companies that have a hybrid cloud strategy. >> Why you cool and relevant? How would you say it? >> Yeah, I think as Kubernetes becomes mainstream, as containers have become mainstream, I think automation at scale with ease, is going to be the key. And that's exactly what we help solve. Automation at scale and with ease. >> With ease and that differentiation. Guys, thank you so much for joining me. Last question, I guess, Madhura, for you, is, where can Devs go to learn more about 5.6 and get their hands on it? >> Absolutely. Go to platform9.com. There is info about 5.6 release, there's a press release, there's a link to it right on the website. And, if they want to learn about Arlon, it's an open source GitHub project. Go to GitHub and find out more about it. >> Excellent guys, thanks again for sharing what you're doing to really deliver Cloud Native at Scale in a differentiated way that adds ostensible value to your customers. John, and I, appreciate your insights and your time. >> Thank you for having us. >> Thanks so much >> Our pleasure. For our guests and John Furrier, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE Live from Detroit, Michigan at KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2022. Stick around, John and I will be back with our next guest. Just a minute. (light synth outro music)

>>Everyone, welcome to the cube here in Palo Alto, California for a special presentation on Cloud native at scale, enabling super cloud modern applications with Platform nine. I'm John Furry, your host of The Cube. We've got a great lineup of three interviews we're streaming today. Mattor Makki, who's the co-founder and VP of Product of Platform nine. She's gonna go into detail around Arlon, the open source products, and also the value of what this means for infrastructure as code and for cloud native at scale. Bickley the chief architect of Platform nine Cube alumni. Going back to the OpenStack days. He's gonna go into why Arlon, why this infrastructure as code implication, what it means for customers and the implications in the open source community and where that value is. Really great wide ranging conversation there. And of course, Vascar, Gort, the CEO of Platform nine, is gonna talk with me about his views on Super Cloud and why Platform nine has a scalable solutions to bring cloud native at scale. So enjoy the program, see you soon. Hello and welcome to the cube here in Palo Alto, California for a special program on cloud native at scale, enabling next generation cloud or super cloud for modern application cloud native developers. I'm John Forry, host of the Cube. Pleasure to have here me Makowski, co-founder and VP of product at Platform nine. Thanks for coming in today for this Cloudnative at scale conversation. >>Thank you for having >>Me. So Cloudnative at scale, something that we're talking about because we're seeing the, the next level of mainstream success of containers Kubernetes and cloud native develop, basically DevOps in the C I C D pipeline. It's changing the landscape of infrastructure as code, it's accelerating the value proposition and the super cloud as we call it, has been getting a lot of traction because this next generation cloud is looking a lot different, but kind of the same as the first generation. What's your view on Super cloud as it fits to cloud native as scales up? >>Yeah, you know, I think what's interesting, and I think the reason why Super Cloud is a really good and a really fit term for this, and I think, I know my CEO was chatting with you as well, and he was mentioning this as well, but I think there needs to be a different term than just multi-cloud or cloud. And the reason is because as cloud native and cloud deployments have scaled, I think we've reached a point now where instead of having the traditional data center style model, where you have a few large distributors of infrastructure and workload at a few locations, I think the model is kind of flipped around, right? Where you have a large number of micro sites. These micro sites could be your public cloud deployment, your private on-prem infrastructure deployments, or it could be your edge environment, right? And every single enterprise, every single industry is moving in that direction. And so you gotta rougher that with a terminology that, that, that indicates the scale and complexity of it. And so I think super cloud is a, is an appropriate term for >>That. So you brought a couple things I want to dig into. You mentioned Edge Notes. We're seeing not only edge nodes being the next kind of area of innovation, mainly because it's just popping up everywhere. And that's just the beginning. Wouldn't even know what's around the corner. You got buildings, you got iot, o ot, and it kind of coming together, but you also got this idea of regions, global infrastructures, big part of it. I just saw some news around cloud flare shutting down a site here, there's policies being made at scale. These new challenges there. Can you share because you can have edge. So hybrid cloud is a winning formula. Everybody knows that it's a steady state. Yeah. But across multiple clouds brings in this new un engineered area, yet it hasn't been done yet. Spanning clouds. People say they're doing it, but you start to see the toe in the water, it's happening, it's gonna happen. It's only gonna get accelerated with the edge and beyond globally. So I have to ask you, what is the technical challenges in doing this? Because it's something business consequences as well, but there are technical challenge. Can you share your view on what the technical challenges are for the super cloud across multiple edges and >>Regions? Yeah, absolutely. So I think, you know, in in the context of this, the, this, this term of super cloud, I think it's sometimes easier to visualize things in terms of two access, right? I think on one end you can think of the scale in terms of just pure number of nodes that you have, deploy number of clusters in the Kubernetes space. And then on the other access you would have your distribution factor, right? Which is, do you have these tens of thousands of nodes in one site or do you have them distributed across tens of thousands of sites with one node at each site? Right? And if you have just one flavor of this, there is enough complexity, but potentially manageable. But when you are expanding on both these access, you really get to a point where that skill really needs some well thought out, well-structured solutions to address it, right? A combination of homegrown tooling along with your, you know, favorite distribution of Kubernetes is not a strategy that can help you in this environment. It may help you when you have one of this or when you, when you scale, is not at the level. >>Can you scope the complexity? Because I mean, I hear a lot of moving parts going on there, the technology's also getting better. We we're seeing cloud native become successful. There's a lot to configure, there's a lot to install. Can you scope the scale of the problem? Because we're talking about at scale Yep. Challenges here. >>Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, I I like to call it, you know, the, the, the problem that the scale creates, you know, there's various problems, but I think one, one problem, one way to think about it is, is, you know, it works on my cluster problem, right? So, you know, I come from engineering background and there's a, you know, there's a famous saying between engineers and QA and the support folks, right? Which is, it works on my laptop, which is I tested this change, everything was fantastic, it worked flawlessly on my machine, on production, It's not working. The exact same problem now happens and these distributed environments, but at massive scale, right? Which is that, you know, developers test their applications, et cetera within the sanctity of their sandbox environments. But once you expose that change in the wild world of your production deployment, right? >>And the production deployment could be going at the radio cell tower at the edge location where a cluster is running there, or it could be sending, you know, these applications and having them run at my customer's site where they might not have configured that cluster exactly the same way as I configured it, or they configured the cluster, right? But maybe they didn't deploy the security policies or they didn't deploy the other infrastructure plugins that my app relies on all of these various factors at their own layer of complexity. And there really isn't a simple way to solve that today. And that is just, you know, one example of an issue that happens. I think another, you know, whole new ball game of issues come in the context of security, right? Because when you are deploying applications at scale in a distributed manner, you gotta make sure someone's job is on the line to ensure that the right security policies are enforced regardless of that scale factor. So I think that's another example of problems that occur. >>Okay. So I have to ask about scale because there are a lot of multiple steps involved when you see the success cloud native, you know, you see some, you know, some experimentation. They set up a cluster, say it's containers and Kubernetes, and then you say, Okay, we got this, we can configure it. And then they do it again and again, they call it day two. Some people call it day one, day two operation, whatever you call it. Once you get past the first initial thing, then you gotta scale it. Then you're seeing security breaches, you're seeing configuration errors. This seems to be where the hotpot is. And when companies transition from, I got this to, Oh no, it's harder than I thought at scale. Can you share your reaction to that and how you see this playing out? >>Yeah, so, you know, I think it's interesting. There's multiple problems that occur when, you know, the, the two factors of scale is we talked about start expanding. I think one of them is what I like to call the, you know, it, it works fine on my cluster problem, which is back in, when I was a developer, we used to call this, it works on my laptop problem, which is, you know, you have your perfectly written code that is operating just fine on your machine, your sandbox environment. But the moment it runs production, it comes back with p zeros and POS from support teams, et cetera. And those issues can be really difficult to try us, right? And so in the Kubernetes environment, this problem kind of multi folds, it goes, you know, escalates to a higher degree because yeah, you have your sandbox developer environments, they have their clusters and things work perfectly fine in those clusters because these clusters are typically handcrafted or a combination of some scripting and handcrafting. >>And so as you give that change to then run at your production edge location, like say you radio sell tower site, or you hand it over to a customer to run it on their cluster, they might not have not have configured that cluster exactly how you did it, or they might not have configured some of the infrastructure plugins. And so the things don't work. And when things don't work, triaging them becomes like ishly hard, right? It's just one of the examples of the problem. Another whole bucket of issues is security, which is, is you have these distributed clusters at scale, you gotta ensure someone's job is on the line to make sure that these security policies are configured properly. >>So this is a huge problem. I love that comment. That's not not happening on my system. It's the classic, you know, debugging mentality. Yeah. But at scale it's hard to do that with error prone. I can see that being a problem. And you guys have a solution you're launching, Can you share what our lawn is, this new product, What is it all about? Talk about this new introduction. >>Yeah, absolutely. I'm very, very excited. You know, it's one of the projects that we've been working on for some time now because we are very passionate about this problem and just solving problems at scale in on-prem or at in the cloud or at edge environments. And what arwan is, it's an open source project and it is a tool, it's a Kubernetes native tool for complete end to end management of not just your clusters, but your clusters. All of the infrastructure that goes within and along the sites of those clusters, security policies, your middleware plugins, and finally your applications. So what alarm lets you do in a nutshell is in a declarative way, it lets you handle the configuration and management of all of these components in at scale. >>So what's the elevator pitch simply put for what this solves in, in terms of the chaos you guys are reigning in. What's the, what's the bumper sticker? Yeah, >>What would it do? There's a perfect analogy that I love to reference in this context, which is think of your assembly line, you know, in a traditional, let's say, you know, an auto manufacturing factory or et cetera, and the level of efficiency at scale that that assembly line brings, right online. And if you look at the logo we've designed, it's this funny little robot. And it's because when we think of online, we, we think of these enterprise large scale environments, you know, sprawling at scale creating chaos because there isn't necessarily a well thought through, well structured solution that's similar to an assembly line, which is taking each components, you know, addressing them, manufacturing, processing them in a standardized way, then handing to the next stage. But again, it gets, you know, processed in a standardized way. And that's what Arlon really does. That's like the I pitch. If you have problems of scale of managing your infrastructure, you know, that is distributed. Arlon brings the assembly line level of efficiency and consistency >>For those. So keeping it smooth, the assembly on things are flowing. C C I CD pipelining. Exactly. So that's what you're trying to simplify that ops piece for the developer. I mean, it's not really ops, it's their ops, it's coding. >>Yeah. Not just developer, the ops, the operations folks as well, right? Because developers, you know, there is, the developers are responsible for one picture of that layer, which is my apps, and then maybe that middleware of application that they interface with, but then they hand it over to someone else who's then responsible to ensure that these apps are secure properly, that they are logging, logs are being collected properly, monitoring and observability integrated. And so it solves problems for both those >>Teams. Yeah. It's DevOps. So the DevOps is the cloud native developer. The OP teams have to kind of set policies. Is that where the declarative piece comes in? Is that why that's important? >>Absolutely. Yeah. And, and, and, and you know, Kubernetes really in introduced or elevated this declarative management, right? Because, you know, c communities clusters are Yeah. Or your, yeah, you know, specifications of components that go in Kubernetes are defined in a declarative way. And Kubernetes always keeps that state consistent with your defined state. But when you go outside of that world of a single cluster, and when you actually talk about defining the clusters or defining everything that's around it, there really isn't a solution that does that today. And so online addresses that problem at the heart of it, and it does that using existing open source well known solutions. >>Ed, do I wanna get into the benefits? What's in it for me as the customer developer? But I want to finish this out real quick and get your thoughts. You mentioned open source. Why open source? What's the, what's the current state of the product? You run the product group over at platform nine, is it open source? And you guys have a product that's commercial? Can you explain the open source dynamic? And first of all, why open source? Yeah. And what is the consumption? I mean, open source is great, People want open source, they can download it, look up the code, but maybe wanna buy the commercial. So I'm assuming you have that thought through, can you share open source and commercial relationship? >>Yeah, I think, you know, starting with why open source? I think it's, you know, we as a company, we have, you know, one of the things that's absolutely critical to us is that we take mainstream open source technologies components and then we, you know, make them available to our customers at scale through either a SaaS model on from model, right? But, so as we are a company or startup or a company that benefits, you know, in a massive way by this open source economy, it's only right, I think in my mind that we do our part of the duty, right? And contribute back to the community that feeds us. And so, you know, we have always held that strongly as one of our principles. And we have, you know, created and built independent products starting all the way with fi, which was a serverless product, you know, that we had built to various other, you know, examples that I can give. But that's one of the main reasons why opensource and also opensource because we want the community to really firsthand engage with us on this problem, which is very difficult to achieve if your product is behind a wall, you know, behind, behind a block box. >>Well, and that's, that's what the developers want too. I mean, what we're seeing in reporting with Super Cloud is the new model of consumption is I wanna look at the code and see what's in there. That's right. And then also, if I want to use it, I, I'll do it. Great. That's open source, that's the value. But then at the end of the day, if I wanna move fast, that's when people buy in. So it's a new kind of freemium, I guess, business model. I guess that's the way that, Well, but that's, that's the benefit. Open source. This is why standards and open source is growing so fast. You have that confluence of, you know, a way for helpers to try before they buy, but also actually kind of date the application, if you will. We, you know, Adrian Karo uses the dating me metaphor, you know, Hey, you know, I wanna check it out first before I get married. Right? And that's what open source, So this is the new, this is how people are selling. This is not just open source, this is how companies are selling. >>Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think, and you know, two things. I think one is just, you know, this, this, this cloud native space is so vast that if you, if you're building a close flow solution, sometimes there's also a risk that it may not apply to every single enterprises use cases. And so having it open source gives them an opportunity to extend it, expand it, to make it proper to their use case if they choose to do so, right? But at the same time, what's also critical to us is we are able to provide a supported version of it with an SLA that we, you know, that's backed by us, a SAS hosted version of it as well, for those customers who choose to go that route, you know, once they have used the open source version and loved it and want to take it at scale and in production and need, need, need a partner to collaborate with, who can, you know, support them for that production >>Environment. I have to ask you now, let's get into what's in it for the customer. I'm a customer, why should I be enthused about Arlo? What's in it for me? You know? Cause if I'm not enthused about it, I'm not gonna be confident and it's gonna be hard for me to get behind this. Can you share your enthusiastic view of, you know, why I should be enthused about Arlo customer? >>Yeah, absolutely. And so, and there's multiple, you know, enterprises that we talk to, many of them, you know, our customers, where this is a very kind of typical story that you hear, which is we have, you know, a Kubernetes distribution. It could be on premise, it could be public clouds, native es, and then we have our C I CD pipelines that are automating the deployment of applications, et cetera. And then there's this gray zone. And the gray zone is well before you can you, your CS CD pipelines can deploy the apps. Somebody needs to do all of their groundwork of, you know, defining those clusters and yeah. You know, properly configuring them. And as these things, these things start by being done hand grown. And then as the, as you scale, what typically enterprises would do today is they will have their home homegrown DIY solutions for this. >>I mean, the number of folks that I talk to that have built Terra from automation, and then, you know, some of those key developers leave. So it's a typical open source or typical, you know, DIY challenge. And the reason that they're writing it themselves is not because they want to. I mean, of course technology is always interesting to everybody, but it's because they can't find a solution that's out there that perfectly fits the problem. And so that's that pitch. I think Spico would be delighted. The folks that we've talked, you know, spoken with, have been absolutely excited and have, you know, shared that this is a major challenge we have today because we have, you know, few hundreds of clusters on s Amazon and we wanna scale them to few thousands, but we don't think we are ready to do that. And this will give us >>Stability. Yeah, I think people are scared, not sc I won't say scare, that's a bad word. Maybe I should say that they feel nervous because, you know, at scale small mistakes can become large mistakes. This is something that is concerning to enterprises. And, and I think this is gonna come up at co con this year where enterprises are gonna say, Okay, I need to see SLAs. I wanna see track record, I wanna see other companies that have used it. Yeah. How would you answer that question to, or, or challenge, you know, Hey, I love this, but is there any guarantees? Is there any, what's the SLAs? I'm an enterprise, I got tight, you know, I love the open source trying to free fast and loose, but I need hardened code. >>Yeah, absolutely. So, so two parts to that, right? One is Arlan leverages existing open source components, products that are extremely popular. Two specifically. One is Lon uses Argo cd, which is probably one of the highest rated and used CD open source tools that's out there, right? It's created by folks that are as part of Intuit team now, you know, really brilliant team. And it's used at scale across enterprises. That's one. Second is arlon also makes use of cluster api capi, which is a ES sub-component, right? For lifecycle management of clusters. So there is enough of, you know, community users, et cetera, around these two products, right? Or, or, or open source projects that will find Arlan to be right up in their alley because they're already comfortable, familiar with algo cd. Now Arlan just extends the scope of what Algo CD can do. And so that's one. And then the second part is going back to a point of the comfort. And that's where, you know, Platform nine has a role to play, which is when you are ready to deploy Alon at scale, because you've been, you know, playing with it in your DEF test environments, you're happy with what you get with it, then Platform nine will stand behind it and provide that sla. >>And what's been the reaction from customers you've talked to Platform nine customers with, with, that are familiar with, with Argo and then Arlo? What's been some of the feedback? >>Yeah, I, I, I think the feedback's been fantastic. I mean, I can give you examples of customers where, you know, initially, you know, when you are, when you're telling them about your entire portfolio of solutions, it might not strike a card right away. But then we start talking about Arlan and, and we talk about the fact that it uses Argo CD and they start opening up, they say, We have standardized on Argo and we have built these components, homegrown, we would be very interested. Can we co-develop? Does it support these use cases? So we've had that kind of validation. We've had validation all the way at the beginning of our line before we even wrote a single line of code saying this is something we plan on doing. And the customer said, If you had it today, I would've purchased it. So it's been really great validation. >>All right. So next question is, what is the solution to the customer? If I asked you, Look it, I have, I'm so busy, my team's overworked. I got a skills gap. I don't need another project that's, I'm so tied up right now and I'm just chasing my tail. How does Platform nine help me? >>Yeah, absolutely. So I think, you know, one of the core tenets of Platform nine has always been that we try to bring that public cloud like simplicity by hosting, you know, this in a lot of such similar tools in a SaaS hosted manner for our customers, right? So our goal behind doing that is taking away or trying to take away all of that complexity from customer's hands and offloading it to our hands, right? And giving them that full white glove treatment as we call it. And so from a customer's perspective, one, something like arlon will integrate with what they have so they don't have to rip and replace anything. In fact, it will, even in the next versions, it may even discover your clusters that you have today and, you know, give you an inventory and that, >>So customers have clusters that are growing, that's a sign correct call you guys. >>Absolutely. Either they're, they have massive large clusters, right? That they wanna split into smaller clusters, but they're not comfortable doing that today, or they've done that already on say, public cloud or otherwise. And now they have management challenges. So >>Especially operationalizing the clusters, whether they want to kind of reset everything and remove things around and reconfigure Yeah. And or scale out. >>That's right. Exactly. >>And you provide that layer of policy. >>Absolutely. >>Yes. That's the key value >>Here. That's right. >>So policy based configuration for cluster scale up >>Profile and policy based declarative configuration and life cycle management for clusters. >>If I asked you how this enables Super club, what would you say to that? >>I think this is one of the key ingredients to super cloud, right? If you think about a super cloud environment, there's at least few key ingredients that that come to my mind that are really critical. Like they are, you know, life saving ingredients at that scale. One is having a really good strategy for managing that scale, you know, in a, going back to assembly line in a very consistent, predictable way so that our lot solves then you, you need to compliment that with the right kind of observability and monitoring tools at scale, right? Because ultimately issues are gonna happen and you're gonna have to figure out, you know, how to solve them fast. And alon by the way, also helps in that direction, but you also need observability tools. And then especially if you're running it on the public cloud, you need some cost management tools. In my mind, these three things are like the most necessary ingredients to make Super Cloud successful. And, you know, alarm flows >>In one. Okay, so now the next level is, Okay, that makes sense. There's under the covers kind of speak under the hood. Yeah. How does that impact the app developers and the cloud native modern application workflows? Because the impact to me, seems the apps are gonna be impacted. Are they gonna be faster, stronger? I mean, what's the impact if you do all those things, as you mentioned, what's the impact of the apps? >>Yeah, the impact is that your apps are more likely to operate in production the way you expect them to, because the right checks and balances have gone through, and any discrepancies have been identified prior to those apps, prior to your customer running into them, right? Because developers run into this challenge to their, where there's a split responsibility, right? I'm responsible for my code, I'm responsible for some of these other plugins, but I don't own the stack end to end. I have to rely on my ops counterpart to do their part, right? And so this really gives them, you know, the right tooling for >>That. So this is actually a great kind of relevant point, you know, as cloud becomes more scalable, you're starting to see this fragmentation gone of the days of the full stack developer to the more specialized role. But this is a key point, and I have to ask you because if this Arlo solution takes place, as you say, and the apps are gonna be stupid, there's designed to do, the question is, what did, does the current pain look like of the apps breaking? What does the signals to the customer Yeah. That they should be calling you guys up into implementing Arlo, Argo, and, and, and on all the other goodness to automate, What are some of the signals? Is it downtime? Is it, is it failed apps, Is it latency? What are some of the things that Yeah, absolutely would be in indications of things are effed up a little bit. >>Yeah. More frequent down times, down times that are, that take longer to triage. And so you are, you know, the, you know, your mean times on resolution, et cetera, are escalating or growing larger, right? Like we have environments of customers where they, they have a number of folks on in the field that have to take these apps and run them at customer sites. And that's one of our partners. And they're extremely interested in this because the, the rate of failures they're encountering for this, you know, the field when they're running these apps on site, because the field is automating their clusters that are running on sites using their own script. So these are the kinds of challenges, and those are the pain points, which is, you know, if you're looking to reduce your, your meantime to resolution, if you're looking to reduce the number of failures that occur on your production site, that's one. And second, if you are looking to manage these at scale environments with a relatively small, focused, nimble ops team, which has an immediate impact on your, So those are, those are the >>Signals. This is the cloud native at scale situation, the innovation going on. Final thought is your reaction to the idea that if the world goes digital, which it is, and the confluence of physical and digital coming together, and cloud continues to do its thing, the company becomes the application, not where it used to be supporting the business, you know, the back office and the IIA terminals and some PCs and handhelds. Now if technology's running, the business is the business. Yeah. The company's the application. Yeah. So it can't be down. So there's a lot of pressure on, on CSOs and CIOs now and see, and boards is saying, how is technology driving the top line revenue? That's the number one conversation. Yeah. Do you see that same thing? >>Yeah. It's interesting. I think there's multiple pressures at the CXO CIO level, right? One is that there needs to be that visibility and clarity and guarantee almost that, you know, that the, the technology that's, you know, that's gonna drive your top line is gonna drive that in a consistent, reliable, predictable manner. And then second, there is the constant pressure to do that while always lowering your costs of doing it, right? Especially when you're talking about, let's say retailers or those kinds of large scale vendors, they many times make money by lowering the amount that they spend on, you know, providing those goods to their end customers. So I think those, both those factors kind of come into play and the solution to all of them is usually in a very structured strategy around automation. >>Final question. What does cloudnative at scale look like to you? If all the things happen the way we want 'em to happen, The magic wand, the magic dust, what does it look like? >>What that looks like to me is a CIO sipping at his desk on coffee production is running absolutely smooth. And his, he's running that at a nimble, nimble team size of at the most, a handful of folks that are just looking after things with things. So just >>Taking care of, and the CIO doesn't exist. There's no CSO there at the beach. >>Yeah. >>Thank you for coming on, sharing the cloud native at scale here on the cube. Thank you for your time. >>Fantastic. Thanks for having >>Me. Okay. I'm John Fur here for special program presentation, special programming cloud native at scale, enabling super cloud modern applications with Platform nine. Thanks for watching. Welcome back everyone to the special presentation of cloud native at scale, the cube and platform nine special presentation going in and digging into the next generation super cloud infrastructure as code and the future of application development. We're here at Bickley, who's the chief architect and co-founder of Platform nine b. Great to see you Cube alumni. We, we met at an OpenStack event in about eight years ago, or well later, earlier when opens Stack was going. Great to see you and great to see congratulations on the success of platform nine. >>Thank you very much. >>Yeah. You guys have been at this for a while and this is really the, the, the year we're seeing the, the crossover of Kubernetes because of what happens with containers. Everyone now was realized, and you've seen what Docker's doing with the new docker, the open source Docker now just a success Exactly. Of containerization, right? And now the Kubernetes layer that we've been working on for years is coming, bearing fruit. This is huge. >>Exactly. Yes. >>And so as infrastructure's code comes in, we talked to Bacar talking about Super Cloud, I met her about, you know, the new Arlon, our R lawn you guys just launched, the infrastructure's code is going to another level. And then it's always been DevOps infrastructure is code. That's been the ethos that's been like from day one, developers just code. Then you saw the rise of serverless and you see now multi-cloud or on the horizon, connect the dots for us. What is the state of infrastructures code today? >>So I think, I think I'm, I'm glad you mentioned it, everybody or most people know about infrastructures code. But with Kubernetes, I think that project has evolved at the concept even further. And these dates, it's infrastructure as configuration, right? So, which is an evolution of infrastructure as code. So instead of telling the system, here's how I want my infrastructure by telling it, you know, do step A, B, C, and D instead with Kubernetes, you can describe your desired state declaratively using things called manifest resources. And then the system kind of magically figures it out and tries to converge the state towards the one that you specify. So I think it's, it's a even better version of infrastructures code. >>Yeah, yeah. And, and that really means it's developer just accessing resources. Okay. Not declaring, Okay, give me some compute, stand me up some, turn the lights on, turn 'em off, turn 'em on. That's kind of where we see this going. And I like the configuration piece. Some people say composability, I mean now with open source, so popular, you don't have to have to write a lot of code. It's code being developed. And so it's into integration, it's configuration. These are areas that we're starting to see computer science principles around automation, machine learning, assisting open source. Cuz you got a lot of code that's right in hearing software, supply chain issues. So infrastructure as code has to factor in these new, new dynamics. Can you share your opinion on these new dynamics of, as open source grows, the glue layers, the configurations, the integration, what are the core issues? >>I think one of the major core issues is with all that power comes complexity, right? So, you know, despite its expressive power systems like Kubernetes and declarative APIs let you express a lot of complicated and complex stacks, right? But you're dealing with hundreds if not thousands of these yamo files or resources. And so I think, you know, the emergence of systems and layers to help you manage that complexity is becoming a key challenge and opportunity in, in this space that, >>That's, I wrote a LinkedIn post today was comments about, you know, hey, enterprise is the new breed, the trend of SaaS companies moving our consumer comp consumer-like thinking into the enterprise has been happening for a long time, but now more than ever, you're seeing it the old way used to be solve complexity with more complexity and then lock the customer in. Now with open source, it's speed, simplification and integration, right? These are the new dynamic power dynamics for developers. Yeah. So as companies are starting to now deploy and look at Kubernetes, what are the things that need to be in place? Because you have some, I won't say technical debt, but maybe some shortcuts, some scripts here that make it look like infrastructure is code. People have done some things to simulate or or make infrastructure as code happen. Yes. But to do it at scale Yes. Is harder. What's your take on this? What's your >>View? It's hard because there's a per proliferation of methods, tools, technologies. So for example, today it's very common for DevOps and platform engineering tools, I mean, sorry, teams to have to deploy a large number of Kubernetes clusters, but then apply the applications and configurations on top of those clusters. And they're using a wide range of tools to do this, right? For example, maybe Ansible or Terraform or bash scripts to bring up the infrastructure and then the clusters. And then they may use a different set of tools such as Argo CD or other tools to apply configurations and applications on top of the clusters. So you have this sprawl of tools. You, you also have this sprawl of configurations and files because the more objects you're dealing with, the more resources you have to manage. And there's a risk of drift that people call that where, you know, you think you have things under control, but some people from various teams will make changes here and there and then before the end of the day systems break and you have no idea of tracking them. So I think there's real need to kind of unify, simplify, and try to solve these problems using a smaller, more unified set of tools and methodologies. And that's something that we try to do with this new project. Arlon. >>Yeah. So, so we're gonna get into Arlan in a second. I wanna get into the why Arlon. You guys announced that at our GoCon, which was put on here in Silicon Valley at the, at the by intu. They had their own little day over there at their headquarters. But before we get there, Vascar, your CEO came on and he talked about Super Cloud at our inaugural event. What's your definition of super cloud? If you had to kind of explain that to someone at a cocktail party or someone in the industry technical, how would you look at the super cloud trend that's emerging? It's become a thing. What's your, what would be your contribution to that definition or the narrative? >>Well, it's, it's, it's funny because I've actually heard of the term for the first time today, speaking to you earlier today. But I think based on what you said, I I already get kind of some of the, the gist and the, the main concepts. It seems like super cloud, the way I interpret that is, you know, clouds and infrastructure, programmable infrastructure, all of those things are becoming commodity in a way. And everyone's got their own flavor, but there's a real opportunity for people to solve real business problems by perhaps trying to abstract away, you know, all of those various implementations and then building better abstractions that are perhaps business or application specific to help companies and businesses solve real business problems. >>Yeah, I remember that's a great, great definition. I remember, not to date myself, but back in the old days, you know, IBM had a proprietary network operating system, so to deck for the mini computer vendors, deck net and SNA respectively. But T C P I P came out of the osi, the open systems interconnect and remember, ethernet beat token ring out. So not to get all nerdy for all the young kids out there, look, just look up token ring, you'll see, you've probably never heard of it. It's IBM's, you know, connection for the internet at the, the layer too is Amazon, the ethernet, right? So if T C P I P could be the Kubernetes and the container abstraction that made the industry completely change at that point in history. So at every major inflection point where there's been serious industry change and wealth creation and business value, there's been an abstraction Yes. Somewhere. Yes. What's your reaction to that? >>I think this is, I think a saying that's been heard many times in this industry and, and I forgot who originated it, but I think the saying goes like, there's no problem that can't be solved with another layer of indirection, right? And we've seen this over and over and over again where Amazon and its peers have inserted this layer that has simplified, you know, computing and, and infrastructure management. And I believe this trend is going to continue, right? The next set of problems are going to be solved with these insertions of additional abstraction layers. I think that that's really a, yeah, it's gonna continue. >>It's interesting. I just really wrote another post today on LinkedIn called the Silicon Wars AMD Stock is down arm has been on rise, we've remember pointing for many years now, that arm's gonna be hugely, it has become true. If you look at the success of the infrastructure as a service layer across the clouds, Azure, aws, Amazon's clearly way ahead of everybody. The stuff that they're doing with the silicon and the physics and the, the atoms, the pro, you know, this is where the innovation, they're going so deep and so strong at ISAs, the more that they get that gets come on, they have more performance. So if you're an app developer, wouldn't you want the best performance and you'd wanna have the best abstraction layer that gives you the most ability to do infrastructures, code or infrastructure for configuration, for provisioning, for managing services. And you're seeing that today with service MeSHs, a lot of action going on in the service mesh area in, in this community of co con, which will be a covering. So that brings up the whole what's next? You guys just announced our lawn at ar GoCon, which came out of Intuit. We've had Maria Teel at our super cloud event, She's a cto, you know, they're all in the cloud. So they contributed that project. Where did Arlon come from? What was the origination? What's the purpose? Why our lawn, why this announcement? Yeah, >>So the, the inception of the project, this was the result of us realizing that problem that we spoke about earlier, which is complexity, right? With all of this, these clouds, these infrastructure, all the variations around and you know, compute storage networks and the proliferation of tools we talked about the Ansibles and Terraforms and Kubernetes itself, you can think of that as another tool, right? We saw a need to solve that complexity problem, and especially for people and users who use Kubernetes at scale. So when you have, you know, hundreds of clusters, thousands of applications, thousands of users spread out over many, many locations, there, there needs to be a system that helps simplify that management, right? So that means fewer tools, more expressive ways of describing the state that you want and more consistency. And, and that's why, you know, we built AR lawn and we built it recognizing that many of these problems or sub problems have already been solved. So Arlon doesn't try to reinvent the wheel, it instead rests on the shoulders of several giants, right? So for example, Kubernetes is one building block, GI ops, and Argo CD is another one, which provides a very structured way of applying configuration. And then we have projects like cluster API and cross plane, which provide APIs for describing infrastructure. So arlon takes all of those building blocks and builds a thin layer, which gives users a very expressive way of defining configuration and desired state. So that's, that's kind of the inception of, And >>What's the benefit of that? What does that give the, what does that give the developer, the user, in this case, >>The developers, the, the platform engineer, team members, the DevOps engineers, they get a a ways to provision not just infrastructure and clusters, but also applications and configurations. They get a way, a system for provisioning, configuring, deploying, and doing life cycle management in a, in a much simpler way. Okay. Especially as I said, if you're dealing with a large number of applications. >>So it's like an operating fabric, if you will. Yes. For them. Okay, so let's get into what that means for up above and below the, the, this abstraction or thin layer below the infrastructure. We talked a lot about what's going on below that. Yeah. Above our workloads at the end of the day, and I talk to CXOs and IT folks that, that are now DevOps engineers. They care about the workloads and they want the infrastructure's code to work. They wanna spend their time getting in the weeds, figuring out what happened when someone made a push that that happened or something happened. They need observability and they need to, to know that it's working. That's right. And here's my workloads running effectively. So how do you guys look at the workload side of it? Cuz now you have multiple workloads on these fabric, right? >>So workloads, so Kubernetes has defined kind of a standard way to describe workloads and you can, you know, tell Kubernetes, I want to run this container this particular way, or you can use other projects that are in the Kubernetes cloud native ecosystem, like K native, where you can express your application in more at a higher level, right? But what's also happening is in addition to the workloads, DevOps and platform engineering teams, they need to very often deploy the applications with the clusters themselves. Clusters are becoming this commodity. It's, it's becoming this host for the application and it kind of comes bundled with it. In many cases it is like an appliance, right? So DevOps teams have to provision clusters at a really incredible rate and they need to tear them down. Clusters are becoming more, >>It's coming like an EC two instance, spin up a cluster. We've heard people used words like that. That's >>Right. And before arlon you kind of had to do all of that using a different set of tools as, as I explained. So with AR loan you can kind of express everything together. You can say I want a cluster with a health monitoring stack and a logging stack and this ingress controller and I want these applications and these security policies. You can describe all of that using something we call the profile. And then you can stamp out your app, your applications and your clusters and manage them in a very, So >>It's essentially standard, like creates a mechanism. Exactly. Standardized, declarative kind of configurations. And it's like a playbook, just deploy it. Now what there is between say a script like I'm, I have scripts, I can just automate scripts >>Or yes, this is where that declarative API and infrastructure as configuration comes in, right? Because scripts, yes you can automate scripts, but the order in which they run matters, right? They can break, things can break in the middle and, and sometimes you need to debug them. Whereas the declarative way is much more expressive and powerful. You just tell the system what you want and then the system kind of figures it out. And there are these things are controllers which will in the background reconcile all the state to converge towards your desire. It's a much more powerful, expressive and reliable way of getting things done. >>So infrastructure as configuration is built kind of on, it's a super set of infrastructures code because it's >>An evolution. >>You need edge's code, but then you can configure the code by just saying do it. You basically declaring saying Go, go do that. That's right. Okay, so, alright, so cloud native at scale, take me through your vision of what that means. Someone says, Hey, what does cloud native at scale mean? What's success look like? How does it roll out in the future as you, not future next couple years. I mean people are now starting to figure out, okay, it's not as easy as it sounds. Kubernetes has value. We're gonna hear this year at CubeCon a lot of this, what does cloud native at scale >>Mean? Yeah, there are different interpretations, but if you ask me, when people think of scale, they think of a large number of deployments, right? Geographies, many, you know, supporting thousands or tens or millions of, of users there, there's that aspect to scale. There's also an equally important a aspect of scale, which is also something that we try to address with Arran. And that is just complexity for the people operating this or configuring this, right? So in order to describe that desired state, and in order to perform things like maybe upgrades or updates on a very large scale, you want the humans behind that to be able to express and direct the system to do that in, in relatively simple terms, right? And so we want the tools and the abstractions and the mechanisms available to the user to be as powerful but as simple as possible. So there's, I think there's gonna be a number and there have been a number of CNCF and cloud native projects that are trying to attack that complexity problem as well. And Arlon kind of falls in in that >>Category. Okay, so I'll put you on the spot rogue, that CubeCon coming up and now this'll be shipping this segment series out before. What do you expect to see at this year? It's the big story this year. What's the, what's the most important thing happening? Is it in the open source community and also within a lot of the, the people jockeying for leadership. I know there's a lot of projects and still there's some white space in the overall systems map about the different areas get run time and there's ability in all these different areas. What's the, where's the action? Where, where's the smoke? Where's the fire? Where's the piece? Where's the tension? >>Yeah, so I think one thing that has been happening over the past couple of coupon and I expect to continue and, and that is the, the word on the street is Kubernetes is getting boring, right? Which is good, right? >>Boring means simple. >>Well, well >>Maybe, >>Yeah, >>Invisible, >>No drama, right? So, so the, the rate of change of the Kubernetes features and, and all that has slowed but in, in a, in a positive way. But there's still a general sentiment and feeling that there's just too much stuff. If you look at a stack necessary for hosting applications based on Kubernetes, there are just still too many moving parts, too many components, right? Too much complexity. I go, I keep going back to the complexity problem. So I expect Cube Con and all the vendors and the players and the startups and the people there to continue to focus on that complexity problem and introduce further simplifications to, to the stack. >>Yeah. Vic, you've had an storied career VMware over decades with them within 12 years with 14 years or something like that. Big number co-founder here a platform. I you's been around for a while at this game, man. We talked about OpenStack, that project we interviewed at one of their events. So OpenStack was the beginning of that, this new revolution. I remember the early days it was, it wasn't supposed to be an alternative to Amazon, but it was a way to do more cloud cloud native. I think we had a Cloud Aati team at that time. We would joke we, you know, about, about the dream. It's happening now, now at Platform nine. You guys have been doing this for a while. What's the, what are you most excited about as the chief architect? What did you guys double down on? What did you guys pivot from or two, did you do any pivots? Did you extend out certain areas? Cuz you guys are in a good position right now, a lot of DNA in Cloud native. What are you most excited about and what does Platform Nine bring to the table for customers and for people in the industry watching this? >>Yeah, so I think our mission really hasn't changed over the years, right? It's been always about taking complex open source software because open source software, it's powerful. It solves new problems, you know, every year and you have new things coming out all the time, right? Opens Stack was an example and then Kubernetes took the world by storm. But there's always that complexity of, you know, just configuring it, deploying it, running it, operating it. And our mission has always been that we will take all that complexity and just make it, you know, easy for users to consume regardless of the technology, right? So the successor to Kubernetes, you know, I don't have a crystal ball, but you know, you have some indications that people are coming up of new and simpler ways of running applications. There are many projects around there who knows what's coming next year or the year after that. But platform will a, platform nine will be there and we will, you know, take the innovations from the the community. We will contribute our own innovations and make all of those things very consumable to customers. >>Simpler, faster, cheaper. Exactly. Always a good business model technically to make that happen. Yes. Yeah, I think the, the reigning in the chaos is key, you know, Now we have now visibility into the scale. Final question before we depart this segment. What is at scale, how many clusters do you see that would be a watermark for an at scale conversation around an enterprise? Is it workloads we're looking at or, or clusters? How would you, Yeah, how would you describe that? When people try to squint through and evaluate what's a scale, what's the at scale kind of threshold? >>Yeah. And, and the number of clusters doesn't tell the whole story because clusters can be small in terms of the number of nodes or they can be large. But roughly speaking when we say, you know, large scale cluster deployments, we're talking about maybe hundreds, two thousands. >>Yeah. And final final question, what's the role of the hyperscalers? You got AWS continuing to do well, but they got their core ias, they got a PAs, they're not too too much putting a SaaS out there. They have some SaaS apps, but mostly it's the ecosystem. They have marketplaces doing, doing over $2 billion billions of transactions a year and, and it's just like, just sitting there. It hasn't really, they're now innovating on it, but that's gonna change ecosystems. What's the role the cloud play in the cloud need of its scale? >>The, the hyper squares? >>Yeah, yeah. A's Azure Google, >>You mean from a business perspective, they're, they have their own interests that, you know, that they're, they will keep catering to, they, they will continue to find ways to lock their users into their ecosystem of services and, and APIs. So I don't think that's gonna change, right? They're just gonna keep well, >>They got great performance. I mean, from a, from a hardware standpoint, yes. That's gonna be key, >>Right? Yes. I think the, the move from X 86 being the dominant way and platform to run workloads is changing, right? That, that, that, that, and I think the, the hyper skaters really want to be in the game in terms of, you know, the, the new risk and arm ecosystems, the platforms. >>Yeah. Not joking aside, Paul Morritz, when he was the CEO of VMware, when he took over once said, I remember our first year doing the cube. Oh the cloud is one big distributed computer. It's, it's hardware and you got software and you got middleware and he kinda over, well he's kind of tongue in cheek, but really you're talking about large compute and sets of services that is essentially a distributed computer. Yes, >>Exactly. >>It's, we're back in the same game. Thank you for coming on the segment. Appreciate your time. This is cloud native at scale special presentation with Platform nine. Really unpacking super cloud Arlon open source and how to run large scale applications on the cloud, cloud native develop for developers. And John Furrier with the cube. Thanks for Washington. We'll stay tuned for another great segment coming right up. Hey, welcome back everyone to Super Cloud 22. I'm John Fur, host of the Cuba here all day talking about the future of cloud. Where's it all going? Making it super multi-cloud is around the corner and public cloud is winning. Got the private cloud on premise and Edge. Got a great guest here, Vascar Gorde, CEO of Platform nine, just on the panel on Kubernetes. An enabler blocker. Welcome back. Great to have you on. >>Good to see you >>Again. So Kubernetes is a blocker enabler by, with a question mark I put on on there. Panel was really to discuss the role of Kubernetes. Now great conversation operations is impacted. What's just thing about what you guys are doing at Platform nine? Is your role there as CEO and the company's position, kind of like the world spun into the direction of Platform nine while you're at the helm, right? >>Absolutely. In fact, things are moving very well and since they came to us, it was an insight to call ourselves the platform company eight years ago, right? So absolutely whether you are doing it in public clouds or private clouds, you know, the application world is moving very fast in trying to become digital and cloud native. There are many options for you to run the infrastructure. The biggest blocking factor now is having a unified platform. And that's what where we come into >>Patrick, we were talking before we came on stage here about your background and we were kind of talking about the glory days in 2000, 2001 when the first ASPs application service providers came out. Kind of a SaaS vibe, but that was kind of all kind of cloud-like >>It wasn't, >>And web services started then too. So you saw that whole growth. Now, fast forward 20 years later, 22 years later, where we are now, when you look back then to here and all the different cycles, >>In fact, you know, as we were talking offline, I was in one of those ASPs in the year 2000 where it was a novel concept of saying we are providing a software and a capability as a service, right? You sign up and start using it. I think a lot has changed since then. The tooling, the tools, the technology has really skyrocketed. The app development environment has really taken off exceptionally well. There are many, many choices of infrastructure now, right? So I think things are in a way the same but also extremely different. But more importantly now for any company, regardless of size, to be a digital native, to become a digital company is extremely mission critical. It's no longer a nice to have everybody's in the journey somewhere. >>Everyone is going digital transformation here. Even on a so-called downturn recession that's upcoming inflations sea year. It's interesting. This is the first downturn, the history of the world where the hyperscale clouds have been pumping on all cylinders as an economic input. And if you look at the tech trends, GDPs down, but not tech. Nope. Cause pandemic showed everyone digital transformation is here and more spend and more growth is coming even in, in tech. So this is a unique factor which proves that that digital transformation's happening and company, every company will need a super cloud. >>Everyone, every company, regardless of size, regardless of location, has to become modernize their infrastructure. And modernizing infrastructure is not just some, you know, new servers and new application tools. It's your approach, how you're serving your customers, how you're bringing agility in your organization. I think that is becoming a necessity for every enterprise to survive. >>I wanna get your thoughts on Super Cloud because one of the things Dave Alon and I want to do with Super Cloud and calling it that was we, I, I personally, and I know Dave as well, he can, I'll speak from, he can speak for himself. We didn't like multi-cloud. I mean not because Amazon said don't call things multi-cloud, it just didn't feel right. I mean everyone has multiple clouds by default. If you're running productivity software, you have Azure and Office 365. But it wasn't truly distributed. It wasn't truly decentralized, it wasn't truly cloud enabled. It didn't, it felt like they're not ready for a market yet. Yet public clouds booming on premise. Private cloud and Edge is much more on, you know, more, More dynamic, more unreal. >>Yeah. I think the reason why we think Super cloud is a better term than multi-cloud. Multi-cloud are more than one cloud, but they're disconnected. Okay, you have a productivity cloud, you have a Salesforce cloud, you may have, everyone has an internal cloud, right? So, but they're not connected. So you can say, okay, it's more than one cloud. So it's, you know, multi-cloud. But super cloud is where you are actually trying to look at this holistically. Whether it is on-prem, whether it is public, whether it's at the edge, it's a store at the branch. You are looking at this as one unit. And that's where we see the term super cloud is more applicable because what are the qualities that you require if you're in a super cloud, right? You need choice of infrastructure, you need, but at the same time you need a single pan or a single platform for you to build your innovations on, regardless of which cloud you're doing it on, right? So I think Super Cloud is actually a more tightly integrated orchestrated management philosophy we think. >>So let's get into some of the super cloud type trends that we've been reporting on. Again, the purpose of this event is as a pilot to get the conversations flowing with, with the influencers like yourselves who are running companies and building products and the builders, Amazon and Azure are doing extremely well. Google's coming up in third Cloudworks in public cloud. We see the use cases on premises use cases. Kubernetes has been an interesting phenomenon because it's become from the developer side a little bit, but a lot of ops people love Kubernetes. It's really more of an ops thing. You mentioned OpenStack earlier. Kubernetes kind of came out of that open stack. We need an orchestration. And then containers had a good shot with, with Docker. They re pivoted the company. Now they're all in an open source. So you got containers booming and Kubernetes as a new layer there. >>What's, >>What's the take on that? What does that really mean? Is that a new defacto enabler? It >>Is here. It's for here for sure. Every enterprise somewhere in the journey is going on. And you know, most companies are, 70 plus percent of them have 1, 2, 3 container based, Kubernetes based applications now being rolled out. So it's very much here. It is in production at scale by many customers. And it, the beauty of it is yes, open source, but the biggest gating factor is the skill set. And that's where we have a phenomenal engineering team, right? So it's, it's one thing to buy a tool and >>Just be clear, you're a managed service for Kubernetes. >>We provide, provide a software platform for cloud acceleration as a service and it can run anywhere. It can run in public private. We have customers who do it in truly multi-cloud environments. It runs on the edge, it runs at this in stores about thousands of stores in a retailer. So we provide that and also for specific segments where data sovereignty and data residency are key regulatory reasons. We also un on-prem as an air gap version. Can >>You give an example on how you guys are deploying your platform to enable a super cloud experience for your customer? Right. >>So I'll give you two different examples. One is a very large networking company, public networking company. They have hundreds of products, hundreds of r and d teams that are building different, different products. And if you look at few years back, each one was doing it on a different platforms, but they really needed to bring the agility. And they worked with us now over three years where we are their build test dev pro platform where all their products are built on, right? And it has dramatically increased their agility to release new products. Number two, it actually is a light out operation. In fact, the customer says like, like the Maytag service person, cuz we provide it as a service and it barely takes one or two people to maintain it for them. >>So it's kinda like an SRE vibe. One person managing a >>Large 4,000 engineers building infrastructure >>On their tools, >>Whatever they want on their tools. They're using whatever app development tools they use, but they use our platform. What >>Benefits are they seeing? Are they seeing speed? >>Speed, definitely. Okay. Definitely they're speeding. Speed uniformity because now they're building able to build, so their customers who are using product A and product B are seeing a similar set of tools that are being used. >>So a big problem that's coming outta this super cloud event that we're, we're seeing and we heard it all here, ops and security teams. Cause they're kind of part of one thing, but option security specifically need to catch up speed wise. Are you delivering that value to ops and security? Right? >>So we, we work with ops and security teams and infrastructure teams and we layer on top of that. We have like a platform team. If you think about it, depending on where you have data centers, where you have infrastructure, you have multiple teams, okay, but you need a unified platform. Who's your buyer? Our buyer is usually, you know, the product divisions of companies that are looking at or the CTO would be a buyer for us functionally cio definitely. So it it's, it's somewhere in the DevOps to infrastructure. But the ideal one we are beginning to see now many large corporations are really looking at it as a platform and saying we have a platform group on which any app can be developed and it is run on any infrastructure. So the platform engineering teams. So >>You working two sides to that coin. You've got the dev side and then >>And then infrastructure >>Side. >>Okay. Another customer that I give an example, which I would say is kind of the edge of the store. So they have thousands of stores. Retail, retail, you know food retailer, right? They have thousands of stores that are on the globe, 50,000, 60,000. And they really want to enhance the customer experience that happens when you either order the product or go into the store and pick up your product or buy or browse or sit there. They have applications that were written in the nineties and then they have very modern AIML applications today. They want something that will not have to send an IT person to install a rack in the store or they can't move everything to the cloud because the store operations has to be local. The menu changes based on it's classic edge. It's classic edge, yeah. Right? They can't send it people to go install rack access servers then they can't sell software people to go install the software and any change you wanna put through that, you know, truck roll. So they've been working with us where all they do is they ship, depending on the size of the store, one or two or three little servers with instructions that >>You, you say little servers like how big one like a box, like a small little box, >>Right? And all the person in the store has to do like what you and I do at home and we get a, you know, a router is connect the power, connect the internet and turn the switch on. And from there we pick it up. >>Yep. >>We provide the operating system, everything and then the applications are put on it. And so that dramatically brings the velocity for them. They manage thousands of >>Them. True plug and play >>Two, plug and play thousands of stores. They manage it centrally. We do it for them, right? So, so that's another example where on the edge then we have some customers who have both a large private presence and one of the public clouds. Okay. But they want to have the same platform layer of orchestration and management that they can use regardless of the locations. >>So you guys got some success. Congratulations. Got some traction there. It's awesome. The question I want to ask you is that's come up is what is truly cloud native? Cuz there's lift and shift of the cloud >>That's not cloud native. >>Then there's cloud native. Cloud native seems to be the driver for the super cloud. How do you talk to customers? How do you explain when someone says what's cloud native, what isn't cloud native? >>Right. Look, I think first of all, the best place to look at what is the definition and what are the attributes and characteristics of what is truly a cloud native, is CNC foundation. And I think it's very well documented, very well. >>Tucan, of course Detroit's >>Coming so, so it's already there, right? So we follow that very closely, right? I think just lifting and shifting your 20 year old application onto a data center somewhere is not cloud native. Okay? You can't put to cloud, not you have to rewrite and redevelop your application in business logic using modern tools. Hopefully more open source and, and I think that's what Cloudnative is and we are seeing a lot of our customers in that journey. Now everybody wants to be cloudnative, but it's not that easy, okay? Because it's, I think it's first of all, skill set is very important. Uniformity of tools that there's so many tools there. Thousands and thousands of tools you could spend your time figuring out which tool to use. Okay? So I think the complexity is there, but the business benefits of agility and uniformity and customer experience are truly being done. >>And I'll give you an example, I don't know how clear native they are, right? And they're not a customer of ours, but you order pizzas, you do, right? If you just watch the pizza industry, how dominoes actually increase their share and mind share and wallet share was not because they were making better pizzas or not, I don't know anything about that, but the whole experience of how you order, how you watch what's happening, how it's delivered. There were a pioneer in it. To me, those are the kinds of customer experiences that cloud native can provide. >>Being agility and having that flow to the application changes what the expectations >>Are >>For the customer. Customer, >>The customer's expectations change, right? Once you get used to a better customer experience, you learn. >>That's to wrap it up. I wanna just get your perspective again. One of the benefits of chatting with you here and having you part of the Super Cloud 22 is you've seen many cycles, you have a lot of insights. I want to ask you, given your career where you've been and what you've done and now let's CEO platform nine, how would you compare what's happening now with other inflection points in the industry? And you've been, again, you've been an entrepreneur, you sold your company to Oracle, you've been seeing the big companies, you've seen the different waves. What's going on right now put into context this moment in time around Super Cloud. >>Sure. I think as you said, a lot of battles. CARSs being been in an asb, being in a real time software company, being in large enterprise software houses and a transformation. I've been on the app side, I did the infrastructure right and then tried to build our own platforms. I've gone through all of this myself with lot of lessons learned in there. I think this is an event which is happening now for companies to go through to become cloud native and digitalize. If I were to look back and look at some parallels of the tsunami that's going on is a couple of paddles come to me. One is, think of it, which was forced to honors like y2k. Everybody around the world had to have a plan, a strategy, and an execution for y2k. I would say the next big thing was e-commerce. I think e-commerce has been pervasive right across all industries. >>And disruptive. >>And disruptive, extremely disruptive. If you did not adapt and adapt and accelerate your e-commerce initiative, you were, it was an existence question. Yeah. I think we are at that pivotal moment now in companies trying to become digital and cloudnative. You know, that is what I see >>Happening there. I think that that e-commerce is interesting and I think just to riff with you on that is that it's disrupting and refactoring the business models. I think that is something that's coming out of this is that it's not just completely changing the gain, it's just changing how you operate, >>How you think and how you operate. See, if you think about the early days of e-commerce, just putting up a shopping cart that made you an e-commerce or e retailer or an e e e customer, right? Or so. I think it's the same thing now is I think this is a fundamental shift on how you're thinking about your business. How are you gonna operate? How are you gonna service your customers? I think it requires that just lift and shift is not gonna work. >>Nascar, thank you for coming on, spending the time to come in and share with our community and being part of Super Cloud 22. We really appreciate, we're gonna keep this open. We're gonna keep this conversation going even after the event, to open up and look at the structural changes happening now and continue to look at it in the open in the community. And we're gonna keep this going for, for a long, long time as we get answers to the problems that customers are looking for with cloud cloud computing. I'm Sean Fur with Super Cloud 22 in the Cube. Thanks for watching. >>Thank you. Thank you. >>Hello and welcome back. This is the end of our program, our special presentation with Platform nine on cloud native at scale, enabling the super cloud. We're continuing the theme here. You heard the interviews Super Cloud and its challenges, new opportunities around solutions around like Platform nine and others with Arlon. This is really about the edge situations on the internet and managing the edge multiple regions, avoiding vendor lock in. This is what this new super cloud is all about. The business consequences we heard and and the wide ranging conversations around what it means for open source and the complexity problem all being solved. I hope you enjoyed this program. There's a lot of moving pieces and things to configure with cloud native install, all making it easier for you here with Super Cloud and of course Platform nine contributing to that. Thank you for watching.

>>Hello everyone. Welcome to the cube here in Palo Alto, California for a special program on cloud native at scale, enabling next generation cloud or super cloud for modern application cloud native developers. I'm John Forer, host of the Cube. My pleasure to have here me Makoski, co-founder and VP of product at Platform nine. Thanks for coming in today for this Cloudnative at scale conversation. Thank >>You for having >>Me. So Cloudnative at scale, something that we're talking about because we're seeing the, the next level of mainstream success of containers Kubernetes and cloud native develop, basically DevOps in the C I C D pipeline. It's changing the landscape of infrastructure as code, it's accelerating the value proposition and the super cloud as we call it, has been getting a lot of traction because this next generation cloud is looking a lot different, but kind of the same as the first generation. What's your view on super cloud as it fits to cloud native as scales up? >>Yeah. You know, I think what's interesting, and I think the reason why Super Cloud is a really good and a really fit term for this, and I think, I know my CEO was chatting with you as well, and he was mentioning this as well, but I think there needs to be a different term than just multi-cloud or cloud. And the reason is because as cloud native and cloud deployments have scaled, I think we've reached a point now where instead of having the traditional data center style model where you have a few large distributors of infrastructure and workload at a few locations, I think the model is kind of flipped around, right? Where you have a large number of micro sites. These micro sites could be your public cloud deployment, your private on-prem infrastructure deployments, or it could be your edge environment, right? And every single enterprise, every single industry is moving that direction. And so you gotta rougher that with a terminology that, that, that indicates the scale and complexity of it. And so I think super cloud is a, is an appropriate term >>For that. So you brought a couple things I want to dig into. You mentioned edge nodes. We're seeing not only edge nodes being the next kind of area of innovation, mainly because it's just popping up everywhere. And that's just the beginning. We even know what's around the corner. You got buildings, you got I O D OT and IT kind of coming together. But you also got this idea of regions, global infrastructure is big part of it. I just saw some news around CloudFlare shutting down a site here. There's policies being made at scale. These new challenges there, can you share because you gotta have edge. So hybrid cloud is a winning formula. Everybody knows that it's a steady state. Yeah. But across multiple clouds brings in this new un engineered area, yet it hasn't been done yet. Spanning clouds. People say they're doing it, but you start to see the toe in the water, it's happening, it's gonna happen. It's only gonna get accelerated with the edge and beyond globally. So I have to ask you, what is the technical challenges in doing this? Because there's some business consequences as well, but there are technical challenges. Can you share your view on what the technical challenges are for the super cloud or across multiple edges and regions? >>Yeah, absolutely. So I think, you know, in in the context of this, the, this, this term of super cloud, I think it's sometimes easier to visualize things in terms of two access, right? I think on one end you can think of the scale in terms of just pure number of nodes that you have, deploy number of clusters in the Kubernetes space. And then on the other access you would have your distribution factor, right? Which is, do you have these tens of thousands of notes in one site or do you have them distributed across tens of thousands of sites with one node at each site? Right? And if you have just one flavor of this, there is enough complexity, but potentially manageable. But when you are expanding on both these access, you really get to a point where that scale really needs some well thought out, well structured solutions to address it, right? A combination of homegrown tooling along with your, you know, favorite distribution of Kubernetes is not a strategy that can help you in this environment. It may help you when you have one of this or when you, when your scale is not at the level, >>Can you scope the complexity? Because I mean, I hear a lot of moving parts going on there, the technology's also getting better. We we're seeing cloud data become successful. There's a lot to configure, there's a lot to install. Can you scope the scale of the problem? Because we're about at scale Yep. Challenges here. Yeah, >>Absolutely. And I think, you know, I I like to call it, you know, the, the problem that the scale creates, you know, there's various problems, but I think one, one problem, one way to think about it is, is you know, it works on my cluster problem, right? So, you know, I come from engineering background and there's a, you know, there's a famous saying between engineers and QA and the support folks, right? Which is, it works on my laptop, which is I tested this change, everything was fantastic, it worked flawlessly on my machine, on production, it's not working. And the exact same problem now happens in these distributed environments, but at massive scale, right? Which is that, you know, developers test their applications, et cetera within the sanctity of their sandbox environments. But once you expose that change in the wild world of your production deployment, right? >>And the production deployment could be going at the radio cell tower at the edge location where a cluster is running there, or it could be sending, you know, these applications and having them run at my customer site where they might not have configured that cluster exactly the same way as I configured it, or they configured the cluster, right? But maybe they didn't deploy the security policies or they didn't deploy the other infrastructure plugins that my app relies on. All of these various factors add their own layer of complexity. And there really isn't a simple way to solve that today. And that is just, you know, one example of an issue that happens. I think another, you know, whole new ball game of issues come in the context of security, right? Because when you are deploying applications at scale in a distributed manner, you gotta make sure someone's job is on the line to ensure that the right security policies are enforced regardless of that scale factor. So I think that's another example of problems that >>Occur. Okay. So I have to ask about scale because there are a lot of multiple steps involved when you see the success cloud native, you know, you see some, you know, some experimentation. They set up a cluster, say it's containers and Kubernetes, and then you say, Okay, we got this, we can figure it. And then they do it again and again, they call it day two. Some people call it day one, day two operation, whatever you call it. Once you get past the first initial thing, then you gotta scale it. Then you're seeing security breaches, you're seeing configuration errors. This seems to be where the hotspot is. And when companies transition from, I got this to, Oh no, it's harder than I thought at scale. Can you share your reaction to that and how you see this playing out? >>Yeah, so, you know, I think it's interesting. There's multiple problems that occur when, you know, the, the two factors of scale is we talked about start expanding. I think one of them is what I like to call the, you know, it, it works fine on my cluster problem, which is back in, when I was a developer, we used to call this, it works on my laptop problem, which is, you know, you have your perfectly written code that is operating just fine on your machine, your sandbox environment. But the moment it runs production, it comes back with p zeros and POS from support teams, et cetera. And those issues can be really difficult to triage us, right? And so in the Kubernetes environment, this problem kind of multi folds, it goes, you know, escalate to a higher degree because you have your sandbox developer environments, they have their clusters and things work perfectly fine in those clusters because these clusters are typically handcrafted or a combination of some scripting and handcrafting. >>And so as you give that change to then run at your production edge location, like say your radio cell tower site or you hand it over to a customer to run it on their cluster, they might not have not have configured that cluster exactly how you did, or they might not have configured some of the infrastructure plugins. And so the things don't work. And when things don't work, triaging them becomes like ishly hard, right? It's just one of the examples of the problem. Another whole bucket of issues is security, which is, is you have these distributed clusters at scale, you gotta ensure someone's job is on the line to make sure that the security policies are configured >>Properly. So this is a huge problem. I love that comment. That's not not happening on my system. It's the classic, you know, debugging mentality. Yeah. But at scale it's hard to do that with error prone. I can see that being a problem. And you guys have a solution you're launching. Can you share what Arlon is this new product? What is it all about? Talk about this new introduction. >>Yeah, absolutely. I'm very, very excited. You know, it's one of the projects that we've been working on for some time now because we are very passionate about this problem and just solving problems at scale in on-prem or at in the cloud or at edge environments. And what arwan is, it's an open source project and it is a tool, it's a Kubernetes native tool for complete end-to-end management of not just your clusters, but your clusters. All of the infrastructure that goes within and along the sites of those clusters, security policies, your middleware plugins, and finally your applications. So what Arlan lets you do in a nutshell is in a declarative way, it lets you handle the configuration and management of all of these components in at scale. >>So what's the elevator pitch simply put for what dissolves in, in terms of the chaos you guys are reigning in, what's the, what's the bumper sticker? Yeah, >>What would it do? There's a perfect analogy that I love to reference in this context, which is think of your assembly line, you know, in a traditional, let's say, you know, an auto manufacturing factory or et cetera, and the level of efficiency at scale that that assembly line brings, right? Lon. And if you look at the logo we've designed, it's this funny little robot, and it's because when we think of lon, we think of these enterprise large scale environments, you know, sprawling at scale creating chaos because there isn't necessarily a well thought through, well-structured solution that's similar to an assembly line, which is taking each component, you know, addressing them, manufacturing, processing them in a standardized way, then handing to the next stage where again, it gets, you know, processed in a standardized way. And that's what Alon really does. That's like the deliver pitch. If you have problems of scale of managing your infrastructure, you know, that is distributed. Arlon brings the assembly line level of efficiency and consistency for those. >>So keeping it smooth, the assembly line, things are flowing. See c i CD pipelining. Exactly. So that's what you're trying to simplify that ops piece for the developer. I mean, it's not really ops, it's their ops is coding. >>Yeah. Not just developer, the ops, the operations folks as well, right? Because developers, you know, there is, developers are responsible for one picture of that layer, which is my apps, and then maybe that middleware of applications that they interface with, but then they hand it over to someone else who's then responsible to ensure that these apps are secured properly, that they are logging, logs are being collected properly, monitoring and observability is integrated. And so it solves problems for both those teams. >>Yeah, it's dev op, So the DevOps is the cloud needed developer, The kins have to kind of set policies. Is that where the declarative piece comes in? Is that why that's important? >>Absolutely. Yeah. And, and, and, and you know, es really in introduced or elevated this declarative management, right? Because you know, Kubernetes clusters are Yeah. Or your, yeah, you know, specifications of components that go in Kubernetes are defined in a declarative way. And Kubernetes always keeps that state consistent with your defined state. But when you go outside of that world of a single cluster, and when you actually talk about defining the clusters or defining everything that's around it, there really isn't a solution that does that today. And so Arlan addresses that problem at the heart of it, and it does that using existing open source, well known solutions. >>Medo, I want to get into the benefits, what's in it for me as the customer developer, but I want to finish this out real quick and get your thoughts. You mentioned open source. Why open source? What's the, what's the current state of the product? You run the product group over there, Platform nine, is it open source? And you guys have a product that's commercial. Can you explain the open source dynamic? And first of all, why open source? Yeah. And what is the consumption? I mean, open source is great, People want open source, they can download it, look up the code, but maybe wanna buy the commercial. So I'm assuming you have that thought through, can you share that open source and commercial relationship? >>Yeah, I think, you know, starting with why open source? I think it's, you know, we as a company, we have, you know, one of the things that's absolutely critical to us is that we take mainstream open source technologies components and then we, you know, make them available to our customers at scale through either a SAS model or onpro model, right? But, so as we are a company or startup or a company that benefits, you know, in a massive way by this open source economy, it's only right, I think in my mind that we do our part of the duty, right? And contribute back to the community that feeds us. And so, you know, we have always held that strongly as one of our principles. And we have, you know, created and built independent products starting all the way with fi, which was a serverless product, you know, that we had built to various other, you know, examples that I can give. But that's one of the main reasons why open source and also open source because we want the community to really firsthand engage with us on this problem, which is very difficult to achieve if your product is behind a wall, you know, behind, behind a blog box. >>Well, and that's, that's what the developers want too. And what we're seeing in reporting with Super Cloud is the new model of consumption is I wanna look at the code and see what's in there. That's right. And then also, if I want to use it, I, I'll do it. Great. That's open source, that's the value. But then at the end of the day, if I wanna move fast, that's when people buy in. So it's a new kind of freemium, I guess, business model. I guess that's the way it is. Well, but that's, that's the benefit. Open source. This is why standards and open source growing so fast, you have that confluence of, you know, a way fors to try before they buy, but also actually kind of date the application, if you will. We, you know, Adrian Karo uses the dating metaphor, you know, Hey, you know, I wanna check it out first before I get married. Right? And that's what open source, So this is the new, this is how people are selling. This is not just open source, this is how companies are selling. >>Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think in, you know, two things, I think one is just, you know, this, this, this cloud native space is so vast that if you, if you're building a close flow solution, sometimes there's also a risk that it may not apply to every single enterprise's use cases. And so having it open source gives them an opportunity to extend it, expand it, to make it proper to their use case if they choose to do so, right? But at the same time, what's also critical to us is we are able to provide a supported version of it with an SLA that we, you know, that's backed by us, a sa hosted version of it as well, for those customers who choose to go that route, you know, once they have used the open source version and loved it and want to take it at scale and in production and need, need, need a partner to collaborate with, who can, you know, support them for that production environment. I >>Have to ask you now, let's get into what's in it for the customer. I'm a customer, why should I be enthused about Arlo? What's in it for me? You know? Cause if I'm not enthused about it, I'm not gonna be confident and it's gonna be hard for me to get behind this. Can you share your enthusiastic view of, you know, why I should be enthused about Arlo if I'm a >>Customer? Yeah, absolutely. And so, and there's multiple, you know, enterprises that we talk to, many of them, you know, our customers, where this is a very kind of typical story that you will hear, which is we have, you know, a Kubernetes distribution. It could be on premise, it could be public clouds, native Kubernetes, and then we have our C I C D pipelines that are automating the deployment of applications, et cetera. And then there's this gray zone. And the gray zone is well before you can you, your CS CD pipelines can deploy the apps. Somebody needs to do all of that groundwork of, you know, defining those clusters and yeah. You know, properly configuring them. And as these things, these things start by being done hand grown. And then as the, as you scale, what typically enterprises would do today is they will have their home homegrown DIY solutions for this. >>I mean, the number of folks that I talk to that have built Terra from automation, and then, you know, some of those key developers leave. So it's a typical open source or typical, you know, DIY challenge. And the reason that they're writing it themselves is not because they want to. I mean, of course technology is always interesting to everybody, but it's because they can't find a solution that's out there that perfectly fits the problem. And so that's that pitch. I think spic would be delighted. The folks that we've spoken, you know, spoken with, have been absolutely excited and have, you know, shared that this is a major challenge we have today because we have, you know, few hundreds of clusters on s Amazon and we wanna scale them to few thousands, but we don't think we are ready to do that. And this will give us the ability. >>Yeah, I think people are scared. Not, I won't say scare, that's a a bad word. Maybe I should say that they feel nervous because, you know, at scale small mistakes can become large mistakes. This is something that is concerning to enterprises and, and I think this is gonna come up at Cuban this year where enterprises are gonna say, Okay, I need to see SLAs. I wanna see track record, I wanna see other companies that have used it. Yeah. How would you answer that question to, or, or challenge, you know, Hey, I love this, but is there any guarantees? Is there any, what's the sla I'm an enterprise, I got tight, you know, I love the open source kind of free, fast and loose, but I need hardened code. >>Yeah, absolutely. So, so two parts to that, right? One is Arlan leverages existing open source components, products that are extremely popular. Two specifically. One is Arlan uses Argo cd, which is probably one of the highest rated and used CD open source tools that's out there, right? It's created by folks that are as part of into team now, you know, really brilliant team. And it's used at scale across enterprises. That's one. Second is arlon also makes use of cluster api capi, which is a sub-component, right? For lifecycle management of clusters. So there is enough of, you know, community users, et cetera, around these two products, right? Or, or, or open source projects that will find Arlan to be right up in their alley because they're already comfortable, familiar with algo cd. Now Arlan just extends the scope of what Algo CD can do. And so that's one. And then the second part is going back to your point of the comfort. And that's where, you know, Platform nine has a role to play, which is when you are ready to deploy arlon at scale, because you've been, you know, playing with it in your dev tested environments, you're happy with what you get with it, then Platform nine will stand behind it and provide that sla. >>And what's been the reaction from customers you've talked to Platform nine customers with, with, that are familiar with, with Argo and then Arlo? What's been some of the feedback? >>Yeah, I, I, I think the feedback's been fantastic. I mean, I can give you examples of customers where, you know, initially, you know, when you are, when you're telling them about your entire portfolio of solutions, it might not strike a card right away. But then we start talking about Arlan and, and we talk about the fact that it uses Argo cdn, they start opening up, they say, We have standardized on Argo and we have built these components, homegrown, we would be very interested. Can we co-develop? Does it support these use cases? So we've had that kind of validation. We've had validation all the way at the beginning of our lawn before we even wrote a single line of code saying this is something we plan on doing. And the customer said, If you had it today, I would've purchased it. So it's been really great validation. >>All right. So next question is, what is the solution to the customer? If I asked you, Look it, I have, I'm so busy, my team's overworked. I got a skills gap. I don't need another project that's, I'm so tied up right now and I'm just chasing my tail. How does Platform nine help me? >>Yeah, absolutely. So I think, you know, one of the core tenets of Platform nine has always been that we try to bring that public cloud like simplicity by hosting, you know, this in a lot of such similar tools in a SAS hosted manner for our customers, right? So our goal behind doing that is taking away or trying to take away all of that complexity from customer's hands and offloading it to our hands, right? And giving them that full white glove treatment as we call it. And so from a customer's perspective, one, something like arlon will integrate with what they have so they don't have to rip and replace anything. In fact, it will, even in the next versions, it may even discover your clusters that you have today and, you know, give you an inventory. And so >>Customers have clusters that are growing, that's a sign correct call you guys. >>Absolutely. Either they're, they have massive large clusters, right? That they wanna split into smaller clusters, but they're not comfortable doing that today, or they've done that already on say, public cloud or otherwise. And now they have management challenges. >>So especially operationalizing the clusters, whether they want to kind of reset everything and remove things around and reconfigure Yep. And or scale out. >>That's right. Exactly. And >>You provide that layer of policy. >>Absolutely. Yes. >>That's the key value >>Here. That's right. >>So policy based configuration for cluster scale >>Up, well profile and policy based declarative configuration and lifecycle management for >>Clusters. If I asked you how this enables Super Cloud, what would you say to that? >>I think this is one of the key ingredients to super cloud, right? If you think about a super cloud environment, there is at least few key ingredients that that come to my mind that are really critical. Like they are, you know, life saving ingredients at that scale. One is having a really good strategy for managing that scale. You know, in a, going back to assembly line in a very consistent, predictable way. So that are land solves, then you, you need to compliment that with the right kind of observability and monitoring tools at scale, right? Because ultimately issues are gonna happen and you're gonna have to figure out, you know, how to solve them fast. And arlon by the way, also helps in that direction, but you also need observability tools. And then especially if you're running at, on the public cloud, you need some cost management tools. In my mind, these three things are like the most necessary ingredients to make Super Cloud successful. And, you know, our long flows >>In one. Okay, so now the next level is, Okay, that makes sense. Is under the covers kind of speak under the hood. Yeah. How does that impact the app developers of the cloud native modern application workflows? Because the impact to me seems the apps are gonna be impacted. Are they gonna be faster, stronger? I mean, what's the impact if you do all those things as you mentioned, what's the impact of the apps? >>Yeah, the impact is that your apps are more likely to operate in production the way you expect them to, because the right checks and balances have gone through, and any discrepancies have been identified prior to those apps, prior to your customer running into them, right? Because developers run into this challenge today where there's a split responsibility, right? I'm responsible for my code, I'm responsible for some of these other plugins, but I don't own these stack end to end. I have to rely on my ops counterpart to do their part, right? And so this really gives them, you know, the right tooling for >>That. So this is actually a great kind of relevant point, you know, as cloud becomes more scalable, you're starting to see this fragmentation gone of the days of the fulls stack developer to the more specialized role. But this is a key point, and I have to ask you because if this, our low solution takes place, as you say, and the apps are gonna be stupid, they designed to do, the question is, what did, does the current pain look like? Are the apps breaking? What is the signals to the customer Yeah. That they should be calling you guys up into implementing Arlo, Argo and, and all the other goodness to automate? What does some of the signals, is it downtime? Is it, is it failed apps, is it latency? What are some of the things that Yeah, absolutely. That would be indications of things are effed up a little bit. >>Yeah. More frequent down times, down times that are, that take longer to triage. And so your, you know, the, you know, your mean times on resolution, et cetera, are escalating or growing larger, right? Like we have environments of customers where they're, they have a number of folks on in the field that have to take these apps and run them at customer sites. And that's one of our partners, and they're extremely interested in this because the, the, the rate of failures they're encountering for this, you know, the field when they're running these apps on site, because the field is automating their clusters that are running on sites using their own scripts. So these are the kinds of challenges, and those are the pain points, which is, you know, if you're looking to reduce your meantime to resolution, if you're looking to reduce the number of failures that occur on your production site, that's one. And second, if you're looking to manage these at scale environments with a relatively small, focused, nimble ops team, which has an immediate impact on your budget. So those are, those are the signals. >>This is the cloud native at scale situation, the innovation going on. Final thought is your reaction to the idea that if the world goes digital, which it is, and the confluence of physical and digital coming together, and cloud continues to do its thing, the company becomes the application not where it used to be supporting the business, you know, the back office and the immediate terminals and some PCs and handhelds. Now if technology's running, the business is the business. Yeah. Company's the application. Yeah. So it can't be down. So there's a lot of pressure on, on CSOs and CIOs now and boards are saying, How is technology driving the top line revenue? That's the number one conversation. Yep. Do you see the same thing? >>Yeah, it's interesting. I think there's multiple pressures at the cx, OCI O level, right? One is that there needs to be that visibility and clarity and guarantee almost that, you know, the, the, the technology that's, you know, that's gonna drive your top line is gonna drive that in a consistent, reliable, predictable manner. And then second, there is the constant pressure to do that while always lowering your costs of doing it right? Especially when you're talking about, let's say retailers or those kinds of large scale vendors, they many times make money by lowering the amount that they spend on, you know, providing those goods to their end customers. So I think those, both those factors kind of come into play and the solution to all of them is usually in a very structured strategy around automation. >>Final question. What does cloud native at scale look like to you? If all the things happen the way we want 'em to happen, The magic wand, the magic dust, what does it look like? >>What that looks like to me is a CIO sipping at his desk on coffee production is running absolutely smooth. And his, he's running that at a nimble, nimble team size of at the most, a handful of folks that are just looking after things, but things are just taking >>Care and the CIO doesn't exist. There's no seeso there at the beach. >>Yep. >>Thank you for coming on, sharing the cloud native at scale here on the cube. Thank you for your time. >>Fantastic. Thanks for >>Having me. Okay. I'm John Fur here for special program presentation, special programming cloud native at scale, enabling super cloud modern applications with Platform nine. Thanks for watching.

>>Hello, welcome to the Cube here in Palo Alto, California for a special presentation on Cloud native at scale, enabling super cloud modern applications with Platform nine. I'm John Furr, your host of The Cube. We had a great lineup of three interviews we're streaming today. Meor Ma Makowski, who's the co-founder and VP of Product of Platform nine. She's gonna go into detail around Arlon, the open source products, and also the value of what this means for infrastructure as code and for cloud native at scale. Bickley the chief architect of Platform nine Cube alumni. Going back to the OpenStack days. He's gonna go into why Arlon, why this infrastructure as code implication, what it means for customers and the implications in the open source community and where that value is. Really great wide ranging conversation there. And of course, Vascar, Gort, the CEO of Platform nine, is gonna talk with me about his views on Super Cloud and why Platform nine has a scalable solutions to bring cloudnative at scale. So enjoy the program. See you soon. Hello everyone. Welcome to the cube here in Palo Alto, California for special program on cloud native at scale, enabling next generation cloud or super cloud for modern application cloud native developers. I'm John Furry, host of the Cube. A pleasure to have here, me Makoski, co-founder and VP of product at Platform nine. Thanks for coming in today for this Cloudnative at scale conversation. Thank >>You for having me. >>So Cloudnative at scale, something that we're talking about because we're seeing the, the next level of mainstream success of containers Kubernetes and cloud native develop, basically DevOps in the C I C D pipeline. It's changing the landscape of infrastructure as code, it's accelerating the value proposition and the super cloud as we call it, has been getting a lot of traction because this next generation cloud is looking a lot different, but kind of the same as the first generation. What's your view on super cloud as it fits to cloud native as scales up? >>Yeah, you know, I think what's interesting, and I think the reason why Super Cloud is a really good, in a really fit term for this, and I think, I know my CEO was chatting with you as well, and he was mentioning this as well, but I think there needs to be a different term than just multi-cloud or cloud. And the reason is because as cloud native and cloud deployments have scaled, I think we've reached a point now where instead of having the traditional data center style model where you have a few large distributions of infrastructure and workload at a few locations, I think the model is kind of flipped around, right? Where you have a large number of microsites, these microsites could be your public cloud deployment, your private on-prem infrastructure deployments, or it could be your edge environment, right? And every single enterprise, every single industry is moving in that direction. And so you gotta rougher that with a terminology that, that, that indicates the scale and complexity of it. And so I think supercloud is a, is an appropriate term for that. >>So you brought a couple of things I want to dig into. You mentioned edge nodes. We're seeing not only edge nodes being the next kind of area of innovation, mainly because it's just popping up everywhere. And that's just the beginning. Wouldn't even know what's around the corner. You got buildings, you got iot, ot, and IT kind of coming together, but you also got this idea of regions, global infras infrastructures, big part of it. I just saw some news around CloudFlare shutting down a site here. There's policies being made at scale, These new challenges there. Can you share because you can have edge. So hybrid cloud is a winning formula. Everybody knows that it's a steady state. Yeah. But across multiple clouds brings in this new un engineered area, yet it hasn't been done yet. Spanning clouds. People say they're doing it, but you start to see the toe in the water, it's happening, it's gonna happen. It's only gonna get accelerated with the edge and beyond globally. So I have to ask you, what is the technical challenges in doing this? Because there's something business consequences as well, but there are technical challenges. Can you share your view on what the technical challenges are for the super cloud or across multiple edges and regions? >>Yeah, absolutely. So I think, you know, in in the context of this, the, this, this term of super cloud, I think it's sometimes easier to visualize things in terms of two access, right? I think on one end you can think of the scale in terms of just pure number of nodes that you have deploy a number of clusters in the Kubernetes space. And then on the other axis you would have your distribution factor, right? Which is, do you have these tens of thousands of nodes in one site or do you have them distributed across tens of thousands of sites with one node at each site? Right? And if you have just one flavor of this, there is enough complexity, but potentially manageable. But when you are expanding on both these access, you really get to a point where that scale really needs some well thought out, well structured solutions to address it, right? A combination of homegrown tooling along with your, you know, favorite distribution of Kubernetes is not a strategy that can help you in this environment. It may help you when you have one of this or when you, when you scale, is not at the level. >>Can you scope the complexity? Because I mean, I hear a lot of moving parts going on there, the technology's also getting better. We we're seeing cloud native become successful. There's a lot to configure, there's a lot to install. Can you scope the scale of the problem? Because we're talking about at scale Yep. Challenges here. Yeah, >>Absolutely. And I think, you know, I I like to call it, you know, the, the, the problem that the scale creates, you know, there's various problems, but I think one, one problem, one way to think about it is, is, you know, it works on my cluster problem, right? So I, you know, I come from engineering background and there's a, you know, there's a famous saying between engineers and QA and the support folks, right? Which is, it works on my laptop, which is I tested this chain, everything was fantastic, it worked flawlessly on my machine, on production, It's not working. The exact same problem now happens and these distributed environments, but at massive scale, right? Which is that, you know, developers test their applications, et cetera within the sanctity of their sandbox environments. But once you expose that change in the wild world of your production deployment, right? >>And the production deployment could be going at the radio cell tower at the edge location where a cluster is running there, or it could be sending, you know, these applications and having them run at my customer site where they might not have configured that cluster exactly the same way as I configured it, or they configured the cluster, right? But maybe they didn't deploy the security policies, or they didn't deploy the other infrastructure plugins that my app relies on. All of these various factors are their own layer of complexity. And there really isn't a simple way to solve that today. And that is just, you know, one example of an issue that happens. I think another, you know, whole new ball game of issues come in the context of security, right? Because when you are deploying applications at scale in a distributed manner, you gotta make sure someone's job is on the line to ensure that the right security policies are enforced regardless of that scale factor. So I think that's another example of problems that occur. >>Okay. So I have to ask about scale, because there are a lot of multiple steps involved when you see the success of cloud native. You know, you see some, you know, some experimentation. They set up a cluster, say it's containers and Kubernetes, and then you say, Okay, we got this, we can figure it. And then they do it again and again, they call it day two. Some people call it day one, day two operation, whatever you call it. Once you get past the first initial thing, then you gotta scale it. Then you're seeing security breaches, you're seeing configuration errors. This seems to be where the hotspot is in when companies transition from, I got this to, Oh no, it's harder than I thought at scale. Can you share your reaction to that and how you see this playing out? >>Yeah, so, you know, I think it's interesting. There's multiple problems that occur when, you know, the two factors of scale, as we talked about, start expanding. I think one of them is what I like to call the, you know, it, it works fine on my cluster problem, which is back in, when I was a developer, we used to call this, it works on my laptop problem, which is, you know, you have your perfectly written code that is operating just fine on your machine, your sandbox environment. But the moment it runs production, it comes back with p zeros and pos from support teams, et cetera. And those issues can be really difficult to triage us, right? And so in the Kubernetes environment, this problem kind of multi folds, it goes, you know, escalates to a higher degree because you have your sandbox developer environments, they have their clusters and things work perfectly fine in those clusters because these clusters are typically handcrafted or a combination of some scripting and handcrafting. >>And so as you give that change to then run at your production edge location, like say your radio cell tower site, or you hand it over to a customer to run it on their cluster, they might not have not have configured that cluster exactly how you did, or they might not have configured some of the infrastructure plugins. And so the things don't work. And when things don't work, triaging them becomes nightmarishly hard, right? It's just one of the examples of the problem, another whole bucket of issues is security, which is, is you have these distributed clusters at scale, you gotta ensure someone's job is on the line to make sure that these security policies are configured properly. >>So this is a huge problem. I love that comment. That's not not happening on my system. It's the classic, you know, debugging mentality. Yeah. But at scale it's hard to do that with error prone. I can see that being a problem. And you guys have a solution you're launching. Can you share what Arlon is this new product? What is it all about? Talk about this new introduction. >>Yeah, absolutely. Very, very excited. You know, it's one of the projects that we've been working on for some time now because we are very passionate about this problem and just solving problems at scale in on-prem or at in the cloud or at edge environments. And what arlon is, it's an open source project, and it is a tool, it's a Kubernetes native tool for complete end to end management of not just your clusters, but your clusters. All of the infrastructure that goes within and along the site of those clusters, security policies, your middleware, plug-ins, and finally your applications. So what our LA you do in a nutshell is in a declarative way, it lets you handle the configuration and management of all of these components in at scale. >>So what's the elevator pitch simply put for what dissolves in, in terms of the chaos you guys are reigning in, what's the, what's the bumper sticker? Yeah, what >>Would it do? There's a perfect analogy that I love to reference in this context, which is think of your assembly line, you know, in a traditional, let's say, you know, an auto manufacturing factory or et cetera, and the level of efficiency at scale that that assembly line brings, right? Our line, and if you look at the logo we've designed, it's this funny little robot. And it's because when we think of online, we think of these enterprise large scale environments, you know, sprawling at scale, creating chaos because there isn't necessarily a well thought through, well structured solution that's similar to an assembly line, which is taking each component, you know, addressing them, manufacturing, processing them in a standardized way, then handing to the next stage. But again, it gets, you know, processed in a standardized way. And that's what arlon really does. That's like the deliver pitch. If you have problems of scale of managing your infrastructure, you know, that is distributed. Arlon brings the assembly line level of efficiency and consistency for >>Those. So keeping it smooth, the assembly on things are flowing. See c i CD pipe pipelining. Exactly. So that's what you're trying to simplify that ops piece for the developer. I mean, it's not really ops, it's their ops, it's coding. >>Yeah. Not just developer, the ops, the operations folks as well, right? Because developers, you know, there is, developers are responsible for one picture of that layer, which is my apps, and then maybe that middleware of applications that they interface with, but then they hand it over to someone else who's then responsible to ensure that these apps are secure properly, that they are logging, logs are being collected properly, monitoring and observability integrated. And so it solves problems for both >>Those teams. Yeah. It's DevOps. So the DevOps is the cloud needed developer's. That's right. The option teams have to kind of set policies. Is that where the declarative piece comes in? Is that why that's important? >>Absolutely. Yeah. And, and, and, and you know, ES really in introduced or elevated this declarative management, right? Because, you know, s clusters are Yeah. Or your, yeah, you know, specifications of components that go in Kubernetes are defined a declarative way, and Kubernetes always keeps that state consistent with your defined state. But when you go outside of that world of a single cluster, and when you actually talk about defining the clusters or defining everything that's around it, there really isn't a solution that does that today. And so Arlon addresses that problem at the heart of it, and it does that using existing open source well known solutions. >>And do I want to get into the benefits? What's in it for me as the customer developer? But I want to finish this out real quick and get your thoughts. You mentioned open source. Why open source? What's the, what's the current state of the product? You run the product group over at Platform nine, is it open source? And you guys have a product that's commercial? Can you explain the open source dynamic? And first of all, why open source? Yeah. And what is the consumption? I mean, open source is great, People want open source, they can download it, look up the code, but maybe wanna buy the commercial. So I'm assuming you have that thought through, can you share open source and commercial relationship? >>Yeah, I think, you know, starting with why open source? I think it's, you know, we as a company, we have, you know, one of the things that's absolutely critical to us is that we take mainstream open source technologies components and then we, you know, make them available to our customers at scale through either a SaaS model or on-prem model, right? But, so as we are a company or startup or a company that benefits, you know, in a massive way by this open source economy, it's only right, I think in my mind that we do our part of the duty, right? And contribute back to the community that feeds us. And so, you know, we have always held that strongly as one of our principles. And we have, you know, created and built independent products starting all the way with fision, which was a serverless product, you know, that we had built to various other, you know, examples that I can give. But that's one of the main reasons why opensource and also open source, because we want the community to really firsthand engage with us on this problem, which is very difficult to achieve if your product is behind a wall, you know, behind, behind a block box. >>Well, and that's, that's what the developers want too. And what we're seeing in reporting with Super Cloud is the new model of consumption is I wanna look at the code and see what's in there. That's right. And then also, if I want to use it, I'll do it. Great. That's open source, that's the value. But then at the end of the day, if I wanna move fast, that's when people buy in. So it's a new kind of freemium, I guess, business model. I guess that's the way that long. But that's, that's the benefit. Open source. This is why standards and open source is growing so fast. You have that confluence of, you know, a way for developers to try before they buy, but also actually kind of date the application, if you will. We, you know, Adrian Karo uses the dating met metaphor, you know, Hey, you know, I wanna check it out first before I get married. Right? And that's what open source, So this is the new, this is how people are selling. This is not just open source, this is how companies are selling. >>Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think, and you know, two things. I think one is just, you know, this, this, this cloud native space is so vast that if you, if you're building a close flow solution, sometimes there's also a risk that it may not apply to every single enterprises use cases. And so having it open source gives them an opportunity to extend it, expand it, to make it proper to their use case if they choose to do so, right? But at the same time, what's also critical to us is we are able to provide a supported version of it with an SLA that we, you know, that's backed by us, a SAS hosted version of it as well, for those customers who choose to go that route, you know, once they have used the open source version and loved it and want to take it at scale and in production and need, need, need a partner to collaborate with, who can, you know, support them for that production >>Environment. I have to ask you now, let's get into what's in it for the customer. I'm a customer. Yep. Why should I be enthused about Arla? What's in it for me? You know? Cause if I'm not enthused about it, I'm not gonna be confident and it's gonna be hard for me to get behind this. Can you share your enthusiastic view of, you know, why I should be enthused about Arlo? I'm a >>Customer. Yeah, absolutely. And so, and there's multiple, you know, enterprises that we talk to, many of them, you know, our customers, where this is a very kind of typical story that you hear, which is we have, you know, a Kubernetes distribution. It could be on premise, it could be public clouds, native Kubernetes, and then we have our C I C D pipelines that are automating the deployment of applications, et cetera. And then there's this gray zone. And the gray zone is well before you can you, your CS c D pipelines can deploy the apps. Somebody needs to do all of that groundwork of, you know, defining those clusters and yeah. You know, properly configuring them. And as these things, these things start by being done hand grown. And then as the, as you scale, what typically enterprises would do today is they will have their home homegrown DIY solutions for this. >>I mean, the number of folks that I talk to that have built Terra from automation, and then, you know, some of those key developers leave. So it's a typical open source or typical, you know, DIY challenge. And the reason that they're writing it themselves is not because they want to. I mean, of course technology is always interesting to everybody, but it's because they can't find a solution that's out there that perfectly fits the problem. And so that's that pitch. I think Ops FICO would be delighted. The folks that we've talk, you know, spoken with, have been absolutely excited and have, you know, shared that this is a major challenge we have today because we have, you know, few hundreds of clusters on ecos Amazon, and we wanna scale them to few thousands, but we don't think we are ready to do that. And this will give us the >>Ability to, Yeah, I think people are scared. Not sc I won't say scare, that's a bad word. Maybe I should say that they feel nervous because, you know, at scale small mistakes can become large mistakes. This is something that is concerning to enterprises. And, and I think this is gonna come up at co con this year where enterprises are gonna say, Okay, I need to see SLAs. I wanna see track record, I wanna see other companies that have used it. Yeah. How would you answer that question to, or, or challenge, you know, Hey, I love this, but is there any guarantees? Is there any, what's the SLAs? I'm an enterprise, I got tight, you know, I love the open source trying to free fast and loose, but I need hardened code. >>Yeah, absolutely. So, so two parts to that, right? One is Arlan leverages existing open source components, products that are extremely popular. Two specifically. One is Arlan uses Argo cd, which is probably one of the highest and used CD open source tools that's out there. Right's created by folks that are as part of into team now, you know, really brilliant team. And it's used at scale across enterprises. That's one. Second is Alon also makes use of Cluster api cappi, which is a Kubernetes sub-component, right? For lifecycle management of clusters. So there is enough of, you know, community users, et cetera, around these two products, right? Or, or, or open source projects that will find Arlan to be right up in their alley because they're already comfortable, familiar with Argo cd. Now Arlan just extends the scope of what City can do. And so that's one. And then the second part is going back to a point of the comfort. And that's where, you know, platform line has a role to play, which is when you are ready to deploy online at scale, because you've been, you know, playing with it in your DEF test environments, you're happy with what you get with it, then Platform nine will stand behind it and provide that >>Sla. And what's been the reaction from customers you've talked to Platform nine customers with, with that are familiar with, with Argo and then rlo? What's been some of the feedback? >>Yeah, I, I think the feedback's been fantastic. I mean, I can give you examples of customers where, you know, initially, you know, when you are, when you're telling them about your entire portfolio of solutions, it might not strike a card right away. But then we start talking about Arlan and, and we talk about the fact that it uses Argo adn, they start opening up, they say, We have standardized on Argo and we have built these components, homegrown, we would be very interested. Can we co-develop? Does it support these use cases? So we've had that kind of validation. We've had validation all the way at the beginning of our land before we even wrote a single line of code saying this is something we plan on doing. And the customer said, If you had it today, I would've purchased it. So it's been really great validation. >>All right. So next question is, what is the solution to the customer? If I asked you, Look it, I have, I'm so busy, my team's overworked. I got a skills gap. I don't need another project that's, I'm so tied up right now and I'm just chasing my tail. How does Platform nine help me? >>Yeah, absolutely. So I think, you know, one of the core tenets of Platform nine has always been been that we try to bring that public cloud like simplicity by hosting, you know, this in a lot of such similar tools in a SaaS hosted manner for our customers, right? So our goal behind doing that is taking away or trying to take away all of that complexity from customers' hands and offloading it to our hands, right? And giving them that full white glove treatment, as we call it. And so from a customer's perspective, one, something like arlon will integrate with what they have so they don't have to rip and replace anything. In fact, it will, even in the next versions, it may even discover your clusters that you have today and you know, give you an inventory. And that will, >>So if customers have clusters that are growing, that's a sign correct call you guys. >>Absolutely. Either they're, they have massive large clusters, right? That they wanna split into smaller clusters, but they're not comfortable doing that today, or they've done that already on say, public cloud or otherwise. And now they have management challenges. So >>Especially operationalizing the clusters, whether they want to kind of reset everything and remove things around and reconfigure Yep. And or scale out. >>That's right. Exactly. And >>You provide that layer of policy. >>Absolutely. >>Yes. That's the key value here. >>That's right. >>So policy based configuration for cluster scale up, >>Well profile and policy based declarative configuration and lifecycle management for clusters. >>If I asked you how this enables supercloud, what would you say to that? >>I think this is one of the key ingredients to super cloud, right? If you think about a super cloud environment, there's at least few key ingredients that that come to my mind that are really critical. Like they are, you know, life saving ingredients at that scale. One is having a really good strategy for managing that scale, you know, in a, going back to assembly line in a very consistent, predictable way so that our lot solves then you, you need to compliment that with the right kind of observability and monitoring tools at scale, right? Because ultimately issues are gonna happen and you're gonna have to figure out, you know, how to solve them fast. And arlon by the way, also helps in that direction, but you also need observability tools. And then especially if you're running it on the public cloud, you need some cost management tools. In my mind, these three things are like the most necessary ingredients to make Super Cloud successful. And you know, our alarm fills in >>One. Okay. So now the next level is, Okay, that makes sense. Is under the covers kind of speak under the hood. Yeah. How does that impact the app developers and the cloud native modern application workflows? Because the impact to me, seems the apps are gonna be impacted. Are they gonna be faster, stronger? I mean, what's the impact if you do all those things, as you mentioned, what's the impact of the apps? >>Yeah, the impact is that your apps are more likely to operate in production the way you expect them to, because the right checks and balances have gone through, and any discrepancies have been identified prior to those apps, prior to your customer running into them, right? Because developers run into this challenge to their, where there's a split responsibility, right? I'm responsible for my code, I'm responsible for some of these other plugins, but I don't own the stack end to end. I have to rely on my ops counterpart to do their part, right? And so this really gives them, you know, the right tooling for that. >>So this is actually a great kind of relevant point, you know, as cloud becomes more scalable, you're starting to see this fragmentation gone of the days of the full stack developer to the more specialized role. But this is a key point, and I have to ask you because if this RLO solution takes place, as you say, and the apps are gonna be stupid, they're designed to do, the question is, what did does the current pain look like of the apps breaking? What does the signals to the customer Yeah. That they should be calling you guys up into implementing Arlo, Argo and, and all the other goodness to automate? What are some of the signals? Is it downtime? Is it, is it failed apps, Is it latency? What are some of the things that Yeah, absolutely would be indications of things are effed up a little bit. Yeah. >>More frequent down times, down times that are, that take longer to triage. And so you are, you know, the, you know, your mean times on resolution, et cetera, are escalating or growing larger, right? Like we have environments of customers where they're, they have a number of folks on in the field that have to take these apps and run them at customer sites. And that's one of our partners. And they're extremely interested in this because they're the, the rate of failures they're encountering for this, you know, the field when they're running these apps on site, because the field is automating their clusters that are running on sites using their own script. So these are the kinds of challenges, and those are the pain points, which is, you know, if you're looking to reduce your meantime to resolution, if you're looking to reduce the number of failures that occur on your production site, that's one. And second, if you are looking to manage these at scale environments with a relatively small, focused, nimble ops team, which has an immediate impact on your budget. So those are, those are the signals. >>This is the cloud native at scale situation, the innovation going on. Final thought is your reaction to the idea that if the world goes digital, which it is, and the confluence of physical and digital coming together, and cloud continues to do its thing, the company becomes the application, not where it used to be supporting the business, you know, the back office and the maybe terminals and some PCs and handhelds. Now if technology's running, the business is the business. Yeah. Company's the application. Yeah. So it can't be down. So there's a lot of pressure on, on CSOs and CIOs now and boards is saying, How is technology driving the top line revenue? That's the number one conversation. Yep. Do you see that same thing? >>Yeah. It's interesting. I think there's multiple pressures at the CXO CIO level, right? One is that there needs to be that visibility and clarity and guarantee almost that, you know, that the, the technology that's, you know, that's gonna drive your top line is gonna drive that in a consistent, reliable, predictable manner. And then second, there is the constant pressure to do that while always lowering your costs of doing it, right? Especially when you're talking about, let's say retailers or those kinds of large scale vendors, they many times make money by lowering the amount that they spend on, you know, providing those goods to their end customers. So I think those, both those factors kind of come into play and the solution to all of them is usually in a very structured strategy around automation. >>Final question. What does cloudnative at scale look like to you? If all the things happen the way we want 'em to happen, The magic wand, the magic dust, what does it look like? >>What that looks like to me is a CIO sipping at his desk on coffee production is running absolutely smooth. And his, he's running that at a nimble, nimble team size of at the most, a handful of folks that are just looking after things, but things are >>Just taking care of the CIO doesn't exist. There's no ciso, they're at the beach. >>Yep. >>Thank you for coming on, sharing the cloud native at scale here on the cube. Thank you for your time. >>Fantastic. Thanks for >>Having me. Okay. I'm John Fur here for special program presentation, special programming cloud native at scale, enabling super cloud modern applications with Platform nine. Thanks for watching. Welcome back everyone to the special presentation of cloud native at scale, the cube and platform nine special presentation going in and digging into the next generation super cloud infrastructure as code and the future of application development. We're here with Bickley, who's the chief architect and co-founder of Platform nine Pick. Great to see you Cube alumni. We, we met at an OpenStack event in about eight years ago, or later, earlier when OpenStack was going. Great to see you and great to see congratulations on the success of platform nine. >>Thank you very much. >>Yeah. You guys have been at this for a while and this is really the, the, the year we're seeing the, the crossover of Kubernetes because of what happens with containers. Everyone now has realized, and you've seen what Docker's doing with the new docker, the open source Docker now just the success Exactly. Of containerization, right? And now the Kubernetes layer that we've been working on for years is coming, bearing fruit. This is huge. >>Exactly. Yes. >>And so as infrastructures code comes in, we talked to Bacar talking about Super Cloud, I met her about, you know, the new Arlon, our, our lawn, and you guys just launched the infrastructures code is going to another level, and then it's always been DevOps infrastructures code. That's been the ethos that's been like from day one, developers just code. Then you saw the rise of serverless and you see now multi-cloud or on the horizon, connect the dots for us. What is the state of infrastructure as code today? >>So I think, I think I'm, I'm glad you mentioned it, everybody or most people know about infrastructures code. But with Kubernetes, I think that project has evolved at the concept even further. And these dates, it's infrastructure is configuration, right? So, which is an evolution of infrastructure as code. So instead of telling the system, here's how I want my infrastructure by telling it, you know, do step A, B, C, and D instead with Kubernetes, you can describe your desired state declaratively using things called manifest resources. And then the system kind of magically figures it out and tries to converge the state towards the one that you specified. So I think it's, it's a even better version of infrastructures code. >>Yeah. And that really means it's developer just accessing resources. Okay. That declare, Okay, give me some compute, stand me up some, turn the lights on, turn 'em off, turn 'em on. That's kind of where we see this going. And I like the configuration piece. Some people say composability, I mean now with open source so popular, you don't have to have to write a lot of code, this code being developed. And so it's into integration, it's configuration. These are areas that we're starting to see computer science principles around automation, machine learning, assisting open source. Cuz you got a lot of code that's right in hearing software, supply chain issues. So infrastructure as code has to factor in these new dynamics. Can you share your opinion on these new dynamics of, as open source grows, the glue layers, the configurations, the integration, what are the core issues? >>I think one of the major core issues is with all that power comes complexity, right? So, you know, despite its expressive power systems like Kubernetes and declarative APIs let you express a lot of complicated and complex stacks, right? But you're dealing with hundreds if not thousands of these yamo files or resources. And so I think, you know, the emergence of systems and layers to help you manage that complexity is becoming a key challenge and opportunity in, in this space. >>That's, I wrote a LinkedIn post today was comments about, you know, hey, enterprise is a new breed. The trend of SaaS companies moving our consumer comp consumer-like thinking into the enterprise has been happening for a long time, but now more than ever, you're seeing it the old way used to be solve complexity with more complexity and then lock the customer in. Now with open source, it's speed, simplification and integration, right? These are the new dynamic power dynamics for developers. Yeah. So as companies are starting to now deploy and look at Kubernetes, what are the things that need to be in place? Because you have some, I won't say technical debt, but maybe some shortcuts, some scripts here that make it look like infrastructure is code. People have done some things to simulate or or make infrastructure as code happen. Yes. But to do it at scale Yes. Is harder. What's your take on this? What's your view? >>It's hard because there's a per proliferation of methods, tools, technologies. So for example, today it's very common for DevOps and platform engineering tools, I mean, sorry, teams to have to deploy a large number of Kubernetes clusters, but then apply the applications and configurations on top of those clusters. And they're using a wide range of tools to do this, right? For example, maybe Ansible or Terraform or bash scripts to bring up the infrastructure and then the clusters. And then they may use a different set of tools such as Argo CD or other tools to apply configurations and applications on top of the clusters. So you have this sprawl of tools. You, you also have this sprawl of configurations and files because the more objects you're dealing with, the more resources you have to manage. And there's a risk of drift that people call that where, you know, you think you have things under control, but some people from various teams will make changes here and there and then before the end of the day systems break and you have no idea of tracking them. So I think there's real need to kind of unify, simplify, and try to solve these problems using a smaller, more unified set of tools and methodologies. And that's something that we try to do with this new project. Arlon. >>Yeah. So, so we're gonna get into Arlan in a second. I wanna get into the why Arlon. You guys announced that at AR GoCon, which was put on here in Silicon Valley at the, at the community meeting by in two, they had their own little day over there at their headquarters. But before we get there, vascar, your CEO came on and he talked about Super Cloud at our in AAL event. What's your definition of super cloud? If you had to kind of explain that to someone at a cocktail party or someone in the industry technical, how would you look at the super cloud trend that's emerging? It's become a thing. What's your, what would be your contribution to that definition or the narrative? >>Well, it's, it's, it's funny because I've actually heard of the term for the first time today, speaking to you earlier today. But I think based on what you said, I I already get kind of some of the, the gist and the, the main concepts. It seems like super cloud, the way I interpret that is, you know, clouds and infrastructure, programmable infrastructure, all of those things are becoming commodity in a way. And everyone's got their own flavor, but there's a real opportunity for people to solve real business problems by perhaps trying to abstract away, you know, all of those various implementations and then building better abstractions that are perhaps business or applications specific to help companies and businesses solve real business problems. >>Yeah, I remember that's a great, great definition. I remember, not to date myself, but back in the old days, you know, IBM had a proprietary network operating system, so of deck for the mini computer vendors, deck net and SNA respectively. But T C P I P came out of the osi, the open systems interconnect and remember, ethernet beat token ring out. So not to get all nerdy for all the young kids out there, look, just look up token ring, you'll see, you've probably never heard of it. It's IBM's, you know, connection for the internet at the, the layer two is Amazon, the ethernet, right? So if T C P I P could be the Kubernetes and the container abstraction that made the industry completely change at that point in history. So at every major inflection point where there's been serious industry change and wealth creation and business value, there's been an abstraction Yes. Somewhere. Yes. What's your reaction to that? >>I think this is, I think a saying that's been heard many times in this industry and, and I forgot who originated it, but I think that the saying goes like, there's no problem that can't be solved with another layer of indirection, right? And we've seen this over and over and over again where Amazon and its peers have inserted this layer that has simplified, you know, computing and, and infrastructure management. And I believe this trend is going to continue, right? The next set of problems are going to be solved with these insertions of additional abstraction layers. I think that that's really a, yeah, it's gonna >>Continue. It's interesting. I just, when I wrote another post today on LinkedIn called the Silicon Wars AMD stock is down arm has been on a rise. We remember pointing for many years now that arm's gonna be hugely, it has become true. If you look at the success of the infrastructure as a service layer across the clouds, Azure, aws, Amazon's clearly way ahead of everybody. The stuff that they're doing with the silicon and the physics and the, the atoms, the pro, you know, this is where the innovation, they're going so deep and so strong at ISAs, the more that they get that gets come on, they have more performance. So if you're an app developer, wouldn't you want the best performance and you'd wanna have the best abstraction layer that gives you the most ability to do infrastructures, code or infrastructure for configuration, for provisioning, for managing services. And you're seeing that today with service MeSHs, a lot of action going on in the service mesh area in in this community of, of co con, which will be a covering. So that brings up the whole what's next? You guys just announced our lawn at Argo Con, which came out of Intuit. We've had Mariana Tessel at our super cloud event. She's the cto, you know, they're all in the cloud. So they contributed that project. Where did Arlon come from? What was the origination? What's the purpose? Why our lawn, why this announcement? >>Yeah, so the, the inception of the project, this was the result of us realizing that problem that we spoke about earlier, which is complexity, right? With all of this, these clouds, these infrastructure, all the variations around and, you know, compute storage networks and the proliferation of tools we talked about the Ansibles and Terraforms and Kubernetes itself. You can, you can think of that as another tool, right? We saw a need to solve that complexity problem, and especially for people and users who use Kubernetes at scale. So when you have, you know, hundreds of clusters, thousands of applications, thousands of users spread out over many, many locations, there, there needs to be a system that helps simplify that management, right? So that means fewer tools, more expressive ways of describing the state that you want and more consistency. And, and that's why, you know, we built our lawn and we built it recognizing that many of these problems or sub problems have already been solved. So Arlon doesn't try to reinvent the wheel, it instead rests on the shoulders of several giants, right? So for example, Kubernetes is one building block, GI ops, and Argo CD is another one, which provides a very structured way of applying configuration. And then we have projects like cluster API and cross plane, which provide APIs for describing infrastructure. So arlon takes all of those building blocks and builds a thin layer, which gives users a very expressive way of defining configuration and desired state. So that's, that's kind of the inception of, And >>What's the benefit of that? What does that give the, what does that give the developer, the user, in this case, >>The developers, the, the platform engineer, team members, the DevOps engineers, they get a a ways to provision not just infrastructure and clusters, but also applications and configurations. They get a way, a system for provisioning, configuring, deploying, and doing life cycle management in a, in a much simpler way. Okay. Especially as I said, if you're dealing with a large number of applications. >>So it's like an operating fabric, if you will. Yes. For them. Okay, so let's get into what that means for up above and below the the, this abstraction or thin layer below as the infrastructure. We talked a lot about what's going on below that. Yeah. Above our workloads. At the end of the day, you know, I talk to CXOs and IT folks that are now DevOps engineers. They care about the workloads and they want the infrastructures code to work. They wanna spend their time getting in the weeds, figuring out what happened when someone made a push that that happened or something happened. They need observability and they need to, to know that it's working. That's right. And is my workloads running effectively? So how do you guys look at the workload side of it? Cuz now you have multiple workloads on these fabric, >>Right? So workloads, so Kubernetes has defined kind of a standard way to describe workloads and you can, you know, tell Kubernetes, I want to run this container this particular way, or you can use other projects that are in the Kubernetes cloud native ecosystem like K native, where you can express your application in more at a higher level, right? But what's also happening is in addition to the workloads, DevOps and platform engineering teams, they need to very often deploy the applications with the clusters themselves. Clusters are becoming this commodity. It's, it's becoming this host for the application and it kind of comes bundled with it. In many cases it is like an appliance, right? So DevOps teams have to provision clusters at a really incredible rate and they need to tear them down. Clusters are becoming more, >>It's kinda like an EC two instance, spin up a cluster. We very, people used words like that. That's >>Right. And before arlon you kind of had to do all of that using a different set of tools as, as I explained. So with Armon you can kind of express everything together. You can say I want a cluster with a health monitoring stack and a logging stack and this ingress controller and I want these applications and these security policies. You can describe all of that using something we call a profile. And then you can stamp out your app, your applications and your clusters and manage them in a very, so >>Essentially standard creates a mechanism. Exactly. Standardized, declarative kind of configurations. And it's like a playbook. You deploy it. Now what's there is between say a script like I'm, I have scripts, I could just automate scripts >>Or yes, this is where that declarative API and infrastructures configuration comes in, right? Because scripts, yes you can automate scripts, but the order in which they run matters, right? They can break, things can break in the middle and, and sometimes you need to debug them. Whereas the declarative way is much more expressive and powerful. You just tell the system what you want and then the system kind of figures it out. And there are these things about controllers which will in the background reconcile all the state to converge towards your desire. It's a much more powerful, expressive and reliable way of getting things done. >>So infrastructure has configuration is built kind of on, it's as super set of infrastructures code because it's >>An evolution. >>You need edge's code, but then you can configure the code by just saying do it. You basically declaring and saying Go, go do that. That's right. Okay, so, alright, so cloud native at scale, take me through your vision of what that means. Someone says, Hey, what does cloud native at scale mean? What's success look like? How does it roll out in the future as you, not future next couple years? I mean people are now starting to figure out, okay, it's not as easy as it sounds. Could be nice, it has value. We're gonna hear this year coan a lot of this. What does cloud native at scale >>Mean? Yeah, there are different interpretations, but if you ask me, when people think of scale, they think of a large number of deployments, right? Geographies, many, you know, supporting thousands or tens or millions of, of users there, there's that aspect to scale. There's also an equally important a aspect of scale, which is also something that we try to address with Arran. And that is just complexity for the people operating this or configuring this, right? So in order to describe that desired state and in order to perform things like maybe upgrades or updates on a very large scale, you want the humans behind that to be able to express and direct the system to do that in, in relatively simple terms, right? And so we want the tools and the abstractions and the mechanisms available to the user to be as powerful but as simple as possible. So there's, I think there's gonna be a number and there have been a number of CNCF and cloud native projects that are trying to attack that complexity problem as well. And Arlon kind of falls in in that >>Category. Okay, so I'll put you on the spot road that CubeCon coming up and obviously this will be shipping this segment series out before. What do you expect to see at Coan this year? What's the big story this year? What's the, what's the most important thing happening? Is it in the open source community and also within a lot of the, the people jogging for leadership. I know there's a lot of projects and still there's some white space in the overall systems map about the different areas get run time and there's ability in all these different areas. What's the, where's the action? Where, where's the smoke? Where's the fire? Where's the piece? Where's the tension? >>Yeah, so I think one thing that has been happening over the past couple of cons and I expect to continue and, and that is the, the word on the street is Kubernetes is getting boring, right? Which is good, right? >>Boring means simple. >>Well, well >>Maybe, >>Yeah, >>Invisible, >>No drama, right? So, so the, the rate of change of the Kubernetes features and, and all that has slowed but in, in a, in a positive way. But there's still a general sentiment and feeling that there's just too much stuff. If you look at a stack necessary for hosting applications based on Kubernetes, there are just still too many moving parts, too many components, right? Too much complexity. I go, I keep going back to the complexity problem. So I expect Cube Con and all the vendors and the players and the startups and the people there to continue to focus on that complexity problem and introduce further simplifications to, to the stack. >>Yeah. Vic, you've had an storied career, VMware over decades with them obviously in 12 years with 14 years or something like that. Big number co-founder here at Platform. Now you guys have been around for a while at this game. We, man, we talked about OpenStack, that project you, we interviewed at one of their events. So OpenStack was the beginning of that, this new revolution. And I remember the early days it was, it wasn't supposed to be an alternative to Amazon, but it was a way to do more cloud cloud native. I think we had a cloud ERO team at that time. We would to joke we, you know, about, about the dream. It's happening now, now at Platform nine. You guys have been doing this for a while. What's the, what are you most excited about as the chief architect? What did you guys double down on? What did you guys tr pivot from or two, did you do any pivots? Did you extend out certain areas? Cuz you guys are in a good position right now, a lot of DNA in Cloud native. What are you most excited about and what does Platform nine bring to the table for customers and for people in the industry watching this? >>Yeah, so I think our mission really hasn't changed over the years, right? It's been always about taking complex open source software because open source software, it's powerful. It solves new problems, you know, every year and you have new things coming out all the time, right? OpenStack was an example when the Kubernetes took the world by storm. But there's always that complexity of, you know, just configuring it, deploying it, running it, operating it. And our mission has always been that we will take all that complexity and just make it, you know, easy for users to consume regardless of the technology, right? So the successor to Kubernetes, you know, I don't have a crystal ball, but you know, you have some indications that people are coming up of new and simpler ways of running applications. There are many projects around there who knows what's coming next year or the year after that. But platform will a, platform nine will be there and we will, you know, take the innovations from the the community. We will contribute our own innovations and make all of those things very consumable to customers. >>Simpler, faster, cheaper. Exactly. Always a good business model technically to make that happen. Yes. Yeah, I think the, the reigning in the chaos is key, you know, Now we have now visibility into the scale. Final question before we depart this segment. What is at scale, how many clusters do you see that would be a watermark for an at scale conversation around an enterprise? Is it workloads we're looking at or, or clusters? How would you, Yeah, how would you describe that? When people try to squint through and evaluate what's a scale, what's the at scale kind of threshold? >>Yeah. And, and the number of clusters doesn't tell the whole story because clusters can be small in terms of the number of nodes or they can be large. But roughly speaking when we say, you know, large scale cluster deployments, we're talking about maybe hundreds, two thousands. >>Yeah. And final final question, what's the role of the hyperscalers? You got AWS continuing to do well, but they got their core ias, they got a PAs, they're not too too much putting a SaaS out there. They have some SaaS apps, but mostly it's the ecosystem. They have marketplaces doing over $2 billion billions of transactions a year and, and it's just like, just sitting there. It hasn't really, they're now innovating on it, but that's gonna change ecosystems. What's the role the cloud play in the cloud native of its scale? >>The, the hyperscalers, >>Yeahs Azure, Google. >>You mean from a business perspective? Yeah, they're, they have their own interests that, you know, that they're, they will keep catering to, they, they will continue to find ways to lock their users into their ecosystem of services and, and APIs. So I don't think that's gonna change, right? They're just gonna keep, >>Well they got great I performance, I mean from a, from a hardware standpoint, yes, that's gonna be key, right? >>Yes. I think the, the move from X 86 being the dominant way and platform to run workloads is changing, right? That, that, that, that, and I think the, the hyperscalers really want to be in the game in terms of, you know, the the new risk and arm ecosystems and the platforms. >>Yeah, not joking aside, Paul Morritz, when he was the CEO of VMware, when he took over once said, I remember our first year doing the cube. Oh the cloud is one big distributed computer, it's, it's hardware and he got software and you got middleware and he kind over, well he's kind of tongue in cheek, but really you're talking about large compute and sets of services that is essentially a distributed computer. >>Yes, >>Exactly. It's, we're back on the same game. Vic, thank you for coming on the segment. Appreciate your time. This is cloud native at scale special presentation with Platform nine. Really unpacking super cloud Arlon open source and how to run large scale applications on the cloud Cloud Native Phil for developers and John Furrier with the cube. Thanks for Washington. We'll stay tuned for another great segment coming right up. Hey, welcome back everyone to Super Cloud 22. I'm John Fur, host of the Cuba here all day talking about the future of cloud. Where's it all going? Making it super multi-cloud clouds around the corner and public cloud is winning. Got the private cloud on premise and edge. Got a great guest here, Vascar Gorde, CEO of Platform nine, just on the panel on Kubernetes. An enabler blocker. Welcome back. Great to have you on. >>Good to see you >>Again. So Kubernetes is a blocker enabler by, with a question mark. I put on on that panel was really to discuss the role of Kubernetes. Now great conversation operations is impacted. What's interest thing about what you guys are doing at Platform nine? Is your role there as CEO and the company's position, kind of like the world spun into the direction of Platform nine while you're at the helm? Yeah, right. >>Absolutely. In fact, things are moving very well and since they came to us, it was an insight to call ourselves the platform company eight years ago, right? So absolutely whether you are doing it in public clouds or private clouds, you know, the application world is moving very fast in trying to become digital and cloud native. There are many options for you do on the infrastructure. The biggest blocking factor now is having a unified platform. And that's what we, we come into, >>Patrick, we were talking before we came on stage here about your background and we were gonna talk about the glory days in 2000, 2001, when the first as piece application service providers came out, kind of a SaaS vibe, but that was kind of all kind of cloudlike. >>It wasn't, >>And and web services started then too. So you saw that whole growth. Now, fast forward 20 years later, 22 years later, where we are now, when you look back then to here and all the different cycles, >>I, in fact you, you know, as we were talking offline, I was in one of those ASPs in the year 2000 where it was a novel concept of saying we are providing a software and a capability as a service, right? You sign up and start using it. I think a lot has changed since then. The tooling, the tools, the technology has really skyrocketed. The app development environment has really taken off exceptionally well. There are many, many choices of infrastructure now, right? So I think things are in a way the same but also extremely different. But more importantly now for any company, regardless of size, to be a digital native, to become a digital company is extremely mission critical. It's no longer a nice to have everybody's in the journey somewhere. >>Everyone is going digital transformation here. Even on a so-called downturn recession that's upcoming inflation's here. It's interesting. This is the first downturn in the history of the world where the hyperscale clouds have been pumping on all cylinders as an economic input. And if you look at the tech trends, GDPs down, but not tech. >>Nope. >>Cuz the pandemic showed everyone digital transformation is here and more spend and more growth is coming even in, in tech. So this is a unique factor which proves that that digital transformation's happening and company, every company will need a super cloud. >>Everyone, every company, regardless of size, regardless of location, has to become modernize their infrastructure. And modernizing Infras infrastructure is not just some new servers and new application tools, It's your approach, how you're serving your customers, how you're bringing agility in your organization. I think that is becoming a necessity for every enterprise to survive. >>I wanna get your thoughts on Super Cloud because one of the things Dave Ante and I want to do with Super Cloud and calling it that was we, I, I personally, and I know Dave as well, he can, I'll speak from, he can speak for himself. We didn't like multi-cloud. I mean not because Amazon said don't call things multi-cloud, it just didn't feel right. I mean everyone has multiple clouds by default. If you're running productivity software, you have Azure and Office 365. But it wasn't truly distributed. It wasn't truly decentralized, it wasn't truly cloud enabled. It didn't, it felt like they're not ready for a market yet. Yet public clouds booming on premise. Private cloud and Edge is much more on, you know, more, more dynamic, more real. >>Yeah. I think the reason why we think super cloud is a better term than multi-cloud. Multi-cloud are more than one cloud, but they're disconnected. Okay, you have a productivity cloud, you have a Salesforce cloud, you may have, everyone has an internal cloud, right? So, but they're not connected. So you can say okay, it's more than one cloud. So it's you know, multi-cloud. But super cloud is where you are actually trying to look at this holistically. Whether it is on-prem, whether it is public, whether it's at the edge, it's a store at the branch. You are looking at this as one unit. And that's where we see the term super cloud is more applicable because what are the qualities that you require if you're in a super cloud, right? You need choice of infrastructure, you need, but at the same time you need a single pain, a single platform for you to build your innovations on regardless of which cloud you're doing it on, right? So I think Super Cloud is actually a more tightly integrated orchestrated management philosophy we think. >>So let's get into some of the super cloud type trends that we've been reporting on. Again, the purpose of this event is to, as a pilots, to get the conversations flowing with with the influencers like yourselves who are running companies and building products and the builders, Amazon and Azure are doing extremely well. Google's coming up in third cloudworks in public cloud. We see the use cases on premises use cases. Kubernetes has been an interesting phenomenon because it's become from the developer side a little bit, but a lot of ops people love Kubernetes. It's really more of an ops thing. You mentioned OpenStack earlier. Kubernetes kind of came out of that open stack. We need an orchestration and then containers had a good shot with, with Docker. They re pivoted the company. Now they're all in an open source. So you got containers booming and Kubernetes as a new layer there. What's the, what's the take on that? What does that really mean? Is that a new defacto enabler? It >>Is here. It's for here for sure. Every enterprise somewhere else in the journey is going on. And you know, most companies are, 70 plus percent of them have won two, three container based, Kubernetes based applications now being rolled out. So it's very much here, it is in production at scale by many customers. And the beauty of it is, yes, open source, but the biggest gating factor is the skill set. And that's where we have a phenomenal engineering team, right? So it's, it's one thing to buy a tool >>And just be clear, you're a managed service for Kubernetes. >>We provide, provide a software platform for cloud acceleration as a service and it can run anywhere. It can run in public private. We have customers who do it in truly multi-cloud environments. It runs on the edge, it runs at this in stores are thousands of stores in a retailer. So we provide that and also for specific segments where data sovereignty and data residency are key regulatory reasons. We also un OnPrem as an air gap version. >>Can you give an example on how you guys are deploying your platform to enable a super cloud experience for your >>Customer? Right. So I'll give you two different examples. One is a very large networking company, public networking company. They have, I dunno, hundreds of products, hundreds of r and d teams that are building different, different products. And if you look at few years back, each one was doing it on a different platforms but they really needed to bring the agility and they worked with us now over three years where we are their build test dev pro platform where all their products are built on, right? And it has dramatically increased their agility to release new products. Number two, it actually is a light out operation. In fact the customer says like, like the Maytag service person cuz we provide it as a service and it barely takes one or two people to maintain it for them. >>So it's kinda like an SRE vibe. One person managing a >>Large 4,000 engineers building infrastructure >>On their tools, >>Whatever they want on their tools. They're using whatever app development tools they use, but they use our platform. >>What benefits are they seeing? Are they seeing speed? >>Speed, definitely. Okay. Definitely they're speeding. Speed uniformity because now they're building able to build, so their customers who are using product A and product B are seeing a similar set of tools that are being used. >>So a big problem that's coming outta this super cloud event that we're, we're seeing and we've heard it all here, ops and security teams cuz they're kind of too part of one theme, but ops and security specifically need to catch up speed wise. Are you delivering that value to ops and security? Right. >>So we, we work with ops and security teams and infrastructure teams and we layer on top of that. We have like a platform team. If you think about it, depending on where you have data centers, where you have infrastructure, you have multiple teams, okay, but you need a unified platform. Who's your buyer? Our buyer is usually, you know, the product divisions of companies that are looking at or the CTO would be a buyer for us functionally cio definitely. So it it's, it's somewhere in the DevOps to infrastructure. But the ideal one we are beginning to see now many large corporations are really looking at it as a platform and saying we have a platform group on which any app can be developed and it is run on any infrastructure. So the platform engineering teams, >>You working two sides of that coin. You've got the dev side and then >>And then infrastructure >>Side side, okay. >>Another customer like give you an example, which I would say is kind of the edge of the store. So they have thousands of stores. Retail, retail, you know food retailer, right? They have thousands of stores that are on the globe, 50,000, 60,000. And they really want to enhance the customer experience that happens when you either order the product or go into the store and pick up your product or buy or browse or sit there. They have applications that were written in the nineties and then they have very modern AIML applications today. They want something that will not have to send an IT person to install a rack in the store or they can't move everything to the cloud because the store operations has to be local. The menu changes based on, It's a classic edge. It's classic edge. Yeah. Right. They can't send it people to go install rack access servers then they can't sell software people to go install the software and any change you wanna put through that, you know, truck roll. So they've been working with us where all they do is they ship, depending on the size of the store, one or two or three little servers with instructions that >>You, you say little servers like how big one like a net box box, like a small little >>Box and all the person in the store has to do like what you and I do at home and we get a, you know, a router is connect the power, connect the internet and turn the switch on. And from there we pick it up. >>Yep. >>We provide the operating system, everything and then the applications are put on it. And so that dramatically brings the velocity for them. They manage >>Thousands of them. True plug and play >>Two, plug and play thousands of stores. They manage it centrally. We do it for them, right? So, so that's another example where on the edge then we have some customers who have both a large private presence and one of the public clouds. Okay. But they want to have the same platform layer of orchestration and management that they can use regardless of the location. So >>You guys got some success. Congratulations. Got some traction there. It's awesome. The question I want to ask you is that's come up is what is truly cloud native? Cuz there's lift and shift of the cloud >>That's not cloud native. >>Then there's cloud native. Cloud native seems to be the driver for the super cloud. How do you talk to customers? How do you explain when someone says what's cloud native, what isn't cloud native? >>Right. Look, I think first of all, the best place to look at what is the definition and what are the attributes and characteristics of what is truly a cloud native, is CNC foundation. And I think it's very well documented where you, well >>Con of course Detroit's >>Coming here, so, so it's already there, right? So, so we follow that very closely, right? I think just lifting and shifting your 20 year old application onto a data center somewhere is not cloud native. Okay? You can't put to cloud native, you have to rewrite and redevelop your application and business logic using modern tools. Hopefully more open source and, and I think that's what Cloudnative is and we are seeing a lot of our customers in that journey. Now everybody wants to be cloudnative, but it's not that easy, okay? Because it's, I think it's first of all, skill set is very important. Uniformity of tools that there's so many tools there. Thousands and thousands of tools you could spend your time figuring out which tool to use. Okay? So I think the complexities there, but the business benefits of agility and uniformity and customer experience are truly them. >>And I'll give you an example. I don't know how clear native they are, right? And they're not a customer of ours, but you order pizzas, you do, right? If you just watch the pizza industry, how dominoes actually increase their share and mind share and wallet share was not because they were making better pizzas or not, I don't know anything about that, but the whole experience of how you order, how you watch what's happening, how it's delivered. There were a pioneer in it. To me, those are the kinds of customer experiences that cloud native can provide. >>Being agility and having that flow to the application changes what the expectations of the, for the customer. >>Customer, the customer's expectations change, right? Once you get used to a better customer experience, you learn >>Best car. To wrap it up, I wanna just get your perspective again. One of the benefits of chatting with you here and having you part of the Super Cloud 22 is you've seen many cycles, you have a lot of insights. I want to ask you, given your career where you've been and what you've done and now the CEO platform nine, how would you compare what's happening now with other inflection points in the industry? And you've been, again, you've been an entrepreneur, you sold your company to Oracle, you've been seeing the big companies, you've seen the different waves. What's going on right now put into context this moment in time around Super >>Cloud. Sure. I think as you said, a lot of battles. Cars being been, been in an asp, been in a realtime software company, being in large enterprise software houses and a transformation. I've been on the app side, I did the infrastructure right and then tried to build our own platforms. I've gone through all of this myself with a lot of lessons learned in there. I think this is an event which is happening now for companies to go through to become cloud native and digitalize. If I were to look back and look at some parallels of the tsunami that's going on is a couple of paddles come to me. One is, think of it, which was forced to honors like y2k. Everybody around the world had to have a plan, a strategy, and an execution for y2k. I would say the next big thing was e-commerce. I think e-commerce has been pervasive right across all industries. >>And disruptive. >>And disruptive, extremely disruptive. If you did not adapt and adapt and accelerate your e-commerce initiative, you were, it was an existence question. Yeah. I think we are at that pivotal moment now in companies trying to become digital and cloudnative that know that is what I see >>Happening there. I think that that e-commerce was interesting and I think just to riff with you on that is that it's disrupting and refactoring the business models. I think that is something that's coming out of this is that it's not just completely changing the game, it's just changing how you operate, >>How you think, and how you operate. See, if you think about the early days of eCommerce, just putting up a shopping cart didn't made you an eCommerce or an E retailer or an e e customer, right? Or so. I think it's the same thing now is I think this is a fundamental shift on how you're thinking about your business. How are you gonna operate? How are you gonna service your customers? I think it requires that just lift and shift is not gonna work. >>Mascar, thank you for coming on, spending the time to come in and share with our community and being part of Super Cloud 22. We really appreciate, we're gonna keep this open. We're gonna keep this conversation going even after the event, to open up and look at the structural changes happening now and continue to look at it in the open in the community. And we're gonna keep this going for, for a long, long time as we get answers to the problems that customers are looking for with cloud cloud computing. I'm Sean Feer with Super Cloud 22 in the Cube. Thanks for watching. >>Thank you. Thank you, John. >>Hello. Welcome back. This is the end of our program, our special presentation with Platform nine on cloud native at scale, enabling the super cloud. We're continuing the theme here. You heard the interviews Super Cloud and its challenges, new opportunities around the solutions around like Platform nine and others with Arlon. This is really about the edge situations on the internet and managing the edge multiple regions, avoiding vendor lock in. This is what this new super cloud is all about. The business consequences we heard and and the wide ranging conversations around what it means for open source and the complexity problem all being solved. I hope you enjoyed this program. There's a lot of moving pieces and things to configure with cloud native install, all making it easier for you here with Super Cloud and of course Platform nine contributing to that. Thank you for watching.

>>Hello. And welcome back to the cubes live coverage here in Seattle for the cubes coverage of AWS marketplace seller conference. Now part of really big move and news, Amazon partner network combines with AWS marketplace to form one organization, the Amazon partner organization, APO where the efficiencies, the next iteration, as they say in Amazon language, where they make things better, simpler, faster, and, and for customers is happening. We're here with Chris Cruz, who's the general manager, worldwide leader of ISV alliances and marketplace, which includes all the channel partners and the buyer and seller relationships all now under one partner organization, bringing together years of work. Yes. If you work with AWS and are a partner and, or sell with them, all kind of coming together, kind of in a new way for the next generation, Chris, congratulations on the new role and the reor. >>Thank you. Yeah, it's very exciting. We're we think it invent, simplifies the process on how we work with our partners and we're really optimistic so far. The feedback's been great. And I think it's just gonna get even better as we kind of work out the final details. >>This is huge news because one, we've been very close to the partner that we've been working with and we talking to, we cover them. We cover the news, the startups from startups, channel partners, big ISVs, big and small from the dorm room to the board room. You guys have great relationships. So check marketplace, the future of procurement, how software will be bought, implemented and deployed is also changed. So you've got the confluence of two worlds coming together, growth in the ecosystem. Yep. NextGen cloud on the horizon for AWS and the customers as digital transformation goes from lift and shift to refactoring businesses. Yep. This is really a seminal moment. Can you share what you talked about on the keynote stage here, around why this is happening now? Yeah. What's the guiding principle. What's the north star where, why what's what's the big news. >>Yeah. And so, you know, a lot of reasons on why we kind of, we pulled the two teams together, but you know, a lot of it kind gets centered around co-sell. And so if you take a look at marketplace where we started off, where it was really a machine image business, and it was a great self-service model and we were working with ISVs that wanted to have this new delivery mechanism on how to bring in at the time was Amazon machine images and you fast forward, we started adding more product types like SAS and containers. And the experience that we saw was that customers would use marketplace for kind of up to a certain limit on a self-service perspective. But then invariably, they wanted by a quantity discount, they wanted to get an enterprise discount and we couldn't do that through marketplace. And so they would exit us and go do a direct deal with a, an ISV. >>And, and so to remedy that we launched private offers, you know, four years ago. And private offers now allowed ISVs to do these larger deals, but do 'em all through marketplace. And so they could start off doing self-service business. And then as a customer graduated up to buying for a full department or an organization, they can now use private offers to execute that larger agreement. And it, we started to do more and more private offers, really kind of coincided with a lot of the initiatives that were going on within Amazon partner network at the time around co-sell. And, and so we started to launch programs like ISV accelerate that really kind of focused on our co-sell relationship with ISVs. And what we found was that marketplace private offers became this awesome way to automate how we co-sell with ISV. And so we kinda had these two organizations that were parallel. We said, you know what, this is gonna be better together. If we put together, it's gonna invent simplify and we can use marketplace private offers as part of that co-sell experience and really feed that automation layer for all of our ISVs as they interacted with native >>Discussions. Well, I gotta give you props, you and Mona work on stage. You guys did a great job and it reminds me of the humble nature of AWS and Amazon. I used to talk to Andy jazzy about this all the time. That reminds me of 2013 here right now, because you're in that mode where Amazon reinvent was in 2013. Yeah. Where you knew it was breaking out. Yeah. Everyone's it was kind of small, but we haven't made it yet. Yeah. But you guys are doing billions of vows in transactions. Yeah. But this event is really, I think the beginning of what we're seeing as the change over from securing and deploying applications in the cloud, because there's a lot of nuanced things I want to get your reaction on one. I heard making your part product as an ISV, more native to AWS's stack. That was one major call out. I heard the other one was, Hey, if you're a channel partner, you can play too. And by the way, there's more choice. There's a lot going on here. That's about to kind of explode in a good way for customers. Yeah. Buyers get more access to assemble their solutions. Yeah. And you got all kinds of like business logic, compensation, integration, and scale. Yeah. This is like unprecedented. >>Yeah. It's, it's exciting to see what's going on. I mean, I think we kind of saw the tipping point probably about two years ago, which, you know, prior to that, you know, we would be working with ISVs and customers and it was really much more of an evangelism role where we were just getting people to try it. Just, just list a product. We think this is gonna be a good idea. And if you're a buyer, it's like just try out a private offer, try out a self, you know, service subscription. And, and what's happened now is there's no longer a lot of that convincing that needs to happen. It's really become accepted. And so a lot of the conversations I have now with ISVs, it's not about, should I do marketplace it's how do I do it better? And how do I really leverage marketplace as part of my co-sell initiatives as, as part of my go to market strategy. >>And so you've, you've really kind of passed this tipping point where marketplaces are now becoming very accepted ways to buy third party software. And so that's really exciting. And, and we see that we, you know, we can really enhance that experience, you know, and what we saw on the machine image side is we had this awesome integrated experience where you would buy it. It was tied right into the EC two control plane. And you could go from buying to deploying in one single motion. SAS is a little bit different, you know, we can do all the buying in a very simple motion, but then deploying it. There's a whole bunch of other stuff that our customers have to do. And so we see all kinds of ways that we can simplify that. You know, recently we launched the ability to put third party solutions outta marketplace, into control tower, which is how we deploy all of our landing zones for AWS. And now it's like, instead of having to go wire that up as you're adding new AWS environments, why not just use that third party solution that you've already integrated to you and have it there as you're span those landing zones through >>Control towers, again, back to humble nature, you guys have dominated the infrastructure as a service layer. You kind of mentioned it. You didn't really kind of highlight it other than saying you're doing pretty good. Yeah. On the IAS or the technology partners as you call or infrastructure as you guys call it. Okay. I can see how the, the, the pan, the control panel is great for those customers. But outside that, when you get into like CRM, you mentioned E R P these business apps, these horizontal and verticals have data they're gonna have SageMaker, they're gonna have edge. They might have, you know, other services that are coming online from Amazon. How do I, as an ISV, get my stuff in there. Yeah. And how do I succeed? And what are you doing to make that better? Cause I know it's kind of new, but not new. Yeah, >>No, it's not. I mean, that's one of the things that we've really invested on is how do we make it really easy to list marketplace? And, you know, again, when we first start started, it was a big, huge spreadsheet that you had to fill out. It was very cumbersome and we've really automated all those aspects. So now we've exposed an API as an example. So you can go straight out of your own build process and you might have your own C I CD pipeline. And then you have a build step at the end. And now you can have that execute marketplace update from your build script, right across that API all the way over to AWS marketplace. So it's taking that effectively, a C CD pipeline from an ISV and extending it all the way to AWS and then eventually to a customer, because now it's just an automated supply chain for that software coming into their environment. And we see that being super powerful. There's nowhere manual steps >>Along. Yeah. I wanna dig into that because you made a comment and I want you to clarify it here in the cube. Some have said, even us on the cube. Oh, marketplace. Just the website's a catalog. Yeah. Feels old school. Yeah. Feels like 1995 database. I'm kind of just, you know, saying no offense sake. And now you're saying, you're now looking at this and, and implementing more of a API based. Why is that relevant? I'm I know the answer. You already set up with APIs, but explain the transition from the mindset of it's a website. Yeah. Buy stuff on a catalog to full blown API layer. Yeah. Services. >>Absolutely. Well, when you look at all AWS services, you know, our customers will interface, you know, they'll interface them through a console initially, but when they're using them in production, they're, it's all about APIs and marketplace, as you mentioned, did start off as a website. And so we've kind of taken the opposite approach. We've got this great website experience, which is great for demand gen and, you know, highlighting those listings. But what we want to do is really have this API service layer that you're interfacing with so that an ISV effectively is not even in our marketplace. They interfacing over APIs to do a variety of their high, you know, value functions, whether it's listing soy, private offers. We don't have that all available through APIs and the same thing on the buyer side. So it's integrating directly into their AWS environment and then they can view all their third party spend within things like our cost management suites. They can look at things like cost Explorer, see third party software, right next to first party software, and have that all integrated this nice as seamless >>For the customer. That's a nice cloud native kind of native experience. I think that's a huge advantage. I'm gonna track that closer. We're we're gonna follow that. I think that's gonna be the killer killer feature. All right. Now let's get to the killer feature and the business logic. Okay. Yeah. All partners all wanna know what's in it for me. Yeah. How do I make more cash? Yeah. How do I compensate my sales people? Yeah. What do you guys don't compete with me? Give me leads. Yeah. Can I get MDF market development funds? Yeah. So take me through the, how you're thinking about supporting the partners that are leaning in that, you know, the parachute will open when they jump outta the plane. Yeah. It's gonna be, they're gonna land safely with you. Yeah. MDF marketing to leads. What are you doing to support the partners to help them serve their >>Customers? It's interesting. Market marketplace has become much more of an accepted way to buy, you know, our customers are, are really defaulting to that as the way to go get that third party software. So we've had some industry analysts do some studies and in what they found, they interviewed a whole cohort of ISVs across various categories within marketplace, whether it was security or network or even line of business software. And what they've found is that on average, our ISVs will see a 24% increased close rate by using marketplace. Right. So when I go talk to a CRO and say, do you want to close, you know, more deals? Yes. Right. And we've got data to show that we're also finding that customers on average, when an ISV sales marketplace, they're seeing an 80% uplift in the actual deal size. And so if your ASP is a hundred K 180 K has a heck of a lot better, right? >>So we're seeing increased deal sizes by going through marketplace. And then the third thing that we've seen, that's a value prop for ISVs is speed of closure. And so on average, what we're finding is that our ISVs are closing deals 40% faster by using marketplace. So if you've got a 10 month sales cycle, shaving four months off of a sales cycle means you're bringing deals in, in an earlier calendar year, earlier quarter. And for ISVs getting that cash flow early is very important. So those are great metrics that we're seeing. And, and, you know, we think that they're only >>Gonna improve and from startups who also want, they don't have a lot of cash ISVs that are rich and doing well. Yeah. They have good, good, good, good, good to market funding. Yeah. You got the range of partners and you know, the next startup could be the next Figma could be in that batch startups. Exactly. Yeah. You don't know the game is changing. Yeah. The next brand could be one of those batch of startups. Yeah. What's the message to the startup community. Yeah. >>I mean, marketplace in a lot of ways becomes a level in effect, right. Because, you know, if, if you look at pre marketplace, if you were a startup, you were having to go generate sales, have a sales force, go compete, you know, kind of hand to hand with these largest ISVs marketplace is really kind of leveling that because now you can both list in marketplace. You have the same advantage of putting that directly in the AWS bill, taking advantage of all the management go features that we offer all the automation that we bring to the table. And so >>A lot of us joint selling >>And joint selling, right? When it goes through marketplace, you know, it's gonna feed into a number of our APN programs like ISV accelerate, our sales teams are gonna get recognized for those deals. And so, you know, it brings nice co-sell behavior to how we work with our, our field sales teams together. It brings nice automation that, you know, pre marketplaces, they would have to go build all that. And that was a heavy lift that really now becomes just kind of table stakes for any kind of ISV selling to an, any of >>Customer. Well, you know, I'm a big fan of the marketplace. I've always have been, even from the early days, I saw this as a procurement game changer. It makes total sense. It's so obvious. Yeah. Not obvious to everyone, but there's a lot of moving parts behind the scenes behind the curtain. So to speak that you're handling. Yeah. What's your message to the audience out there, both the buyers and the sellers. Yeah. About what your mission is, what you're you wake up every day thinking about. Yeah. And what's your promise to them and what you're gonna work on. Cause it's not easy. You're building a, an operating model. That's not a website. It's a full on cloud service. Yeah. What's your promise. And what's >>Your goals. No. And like, you know, ultimately we're trying to do from an Aus market perspective is, is provide that selection experience to the ABUS customer, right? There's the infamous flywheel that Jeff put together that had the concepts of why Amazon is successful. And one are the concepts he points to is the concept of selection. And, and what we mean by that is if you come to Amazon it's is effectively that everything stored. And when you come across, AWS marketplace becomes that selection experience. And so that's what we're trying to do is provide whatever our AWS customers wanna buy, whatever form factor, whatever software type, whatever data type it's gonna be available in AWS marketplace for consumption. And that ultimately helps our customers because now they can get whatever technologies that they need to use alongside Avis. >>And I want, wanna give you props too. You answered the hard question on stage. I've asked Andy EY this on the cube when he was the CEO, Adam Celski last year, I asked him the same question and the answer has been consistent. We have some solutions that people want a AWS end to end, but your ecosystem, you want people to compete yes. And build a product and mostly point to things like snowflake, new Relic. Yeah. Other people that compete with Amazon services. Yeah. You guys want that. You encourage that. Yeah. You're ratifying that same statement. >>Absolutely. Right. Again, it feeds into that selection experience. Right. If a customer wants something, we wanna make sure it's gonna be a great experience. Right. And so a lot of these ISVs are building on top of AWS. We wanna make sure that they're successful. And, you know, while we have a number of our first party services, we have a variety of third party technologies that run very well in a AWS. And ultimately the customer's gonna make their decision. We're customer obsessed. And if they want to go with a third party product, we're absolutely gonna support them in every way shape we can and make sure that's a successful experience for our customers. >>I, I know you referenced two studies check out the website's got buyer and seller surveys on there for Boer. Yeah. I don't want to get into that. I want to just end on one. Yeah. Kind of final note, you got a lot of successful buyers and a lot of successful sellers. The word billions, yes. With an S was and the slide. Can you say the number, how much, how many billions are sold yeah. Through the marketplace. Yeah. And the buyer experience future what's those two things. >>Yeah. So we went on record at reinvent last year, so it's approaching it birthday, but it was the first year that we've in our 10 year history announced how much was actually being sold to the marketplace. And, you know, we are now selling billions of dollars to our marketplace and that's with an S so you can assume, at least it's two, but it's, it's a, it's a large number and it's going >>Very quickly. Yeah. Can't disclose, you know, >>But it's a, it's been a very healthy part of our business. And you know, we look at this, the experience that we >>Saw, there's a lot of headroom. I mean, oh yeah, you have infrastructure nailed down. That's long, you get better, but you have basically growth up upside with these categor other categories. What's the hot categories. You >>Know, we, we started off with infrastructure related products and we've kind of hit critical mass there. Right? We've, there's very few ISVs left that are in that infrastructure related space that are not in our marketplace. And what's happened now is our customers are saying, well, I've been buying infrastructure products for years. I'm gonna buy everything. I wanna buy my line of business software. I wanna buy my vertical solutions. I wanna buy my data and I wanna buy all my services alongside of that. And so there's tons of upside. We're seeing all of these either horizontal business applications coming to our marketplace or vertical specific solutions. Yeah. Which, you know, when we first designed our marketplace, we weren't sure if that would ever happen. We're starting to see that actually really accelerate because customers are now just defaulting to buying everything through their marketplace. >>Chris, thanks for coming on the queue. I know we went a little extra long. There wanted to get that clarification on the new role. Yeah. New organization. Great, great reorg. It makes a lot of sense. Next level NextGen. Thanks for coming on the cube. Okay. >>Thank you for the opportunity. >>All right here, covering the new big news here of AWS marketplace and the AWS partner network coming together under one coherent organization, serving fires and sellers, billions sold the future of how people are gonna be buying software, deploying it, managing it, operating it. It's all happening in the marketplace. This is the big trend. It's the cue here in Seattle with more coverage here at Davis marketplace sellers conference. After the short break.

(upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome to theCUBE here in Palo Alto, California, for a special program on Cloud Native at Scale, Enabling Next Generation Cloud or Supercloud for Modern Application Cloud Native Developers. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. My pleasure to have here, me Madhura Maskasky, Co-founder and VP of Product at Platform9. Thanks for coming in today for this cloud native at scale conversation. >> Thank you for having me. >> So cloud native at scale, something that we're talking about because we're seeing the next level of mainstream success of containers, Kubernetes and cloud native develop, basically DevOps in the CI/CD pipeline. It's changing the landscape of infrastructure as code. It's accelerating the value proposition. And the Supercloud as we call it, has been getting a lot of traction because this next generation cloud is looking a lot different, but kind of the same as the first generation. What's your view on Supercloud as it fits to cloud native, it scales up. >> Yeah, you know, I think what's interesting. And I think the reason why Supercloud is a really good and a really fit term for this. And I think I know my CEO was chatting with you as well, and he was mentioning this as well, but I think there needs to be a different term than just multicloud or cloud. And the reason is because as cloud native and cloud deployments have scaled, I think we've reached a point now where instead of having the traditional data center style model, where you have a few large distributions of infrastructure and workload at a few locations, I think the model's kind of flipped around, right? Where you have a large number of micro-sites. These micro-sites could be your public cloud deployment, your private OnPrem infrastructure deployment, or it could be your Edge environment, right? And every single enterprise, every single industry is moving in that direction. And so you got to refer that with a terminology that indicates the scale and complexity of it. And so I think Supercloud is an appropriate term for that. >> So you brought a couple things I want to dig into. You mentioned Edge nodes. We're seeing not only Edge nodes being the next kind of area of innovation, mainly because it's just popping up everywhere. And that's just the beginning, wouldn't even know what's around the corner. You got buildings, you got IoT, OT and IT kind of coming together, but you also got this idea of regions. Global infrastructure is a big part of it. I just saw some news around CloudFlare shutting down a site here. There's policies being made at scale, these new challenges there. Can you share, because you got to have Edge. So hybrid cloud is a winning formula. Everybody knows that, it's a steady state. But across multiple clouds brings in this new un-engineered area yet, It hasn't been done yet, Spanning Clouds. People say they're doing it, but you start to see the toe in the water. It's happening, it's going to happen. It's only going to get accelerated with the Edge and beyond globally. So I have to ask you, what is the technical challenges in doing this? Because there's something, business consequences as well, but there are technical challenges. Can you share your view on what the technical challenges are for the Supercloud across multiple edges and regions? >> Yeah, absolutely. So I think, you know, in the context of this term of Supercloud, I think it's sometimes easier to visualize things in terms of two axis, right? I think on one end you can think of the scale in terms of just pure number of nodes that you have deployed, a number of clusters in the Kubernetes space. And then on the other axis, you would have your distribution factor, right? Which is, do you have these tens of thousands of nodes in one site, or do you have them distributed across tens of thousands of sites, with one node at each site, right? And if you have just one flare of this, there is enough complexity, but potentially manageable. But when you are expanding on both these axis, you really get to a point where that scale really needs some well thought out, well structured solutions to address it, right? A combination of homegrown tooling, along with your, you know, favorite distribution of Kubernetes is not a strategy that can help you in this environment. It may help you when you have one of this, or when your scale is not at the level. >> Can you scope the complexity? Because, I mean, I hear a lot of moving parts going on there. The technology is also getting better. We're seeing cloud native become successful. There's a lot to configure. There's lot to install. Can you scope the scale of the problem because we're about at scale challenges here. >> Yeah absolutely, and I think I like to call it, you know, the problem that the scale creates, there's various problems. But I think one problem, one way to think about it is it works on my cluster problem, right? So, you know, I come from engineering background and there's a famous saying between engineers and QA, and the support folks, right. Which is, it works on my laptop, which is I tested this change, everything was fantastic. It worked flawlessly on my machine. On production, it's not working. The exact same problem now happens in these distributed environments, but at massive scale, right. Which is that, you know, developers test their applications, et cetera within these sanctity of their sandbox environments. But once you expose that change in the wild world of your production deployment, right. And the production deployment could be going at the radio cell tower at the Edge location where a cluster is running there. Or it could be sending, you know, these applications and having them run at my customer site, where they might not have configured that cluster exactly the same way as I configured it. Or they configured the cluster right. But maybe they didn't deploy the security policies, or they didn't deploy the other infrastructure plugins that my app relies on. All of these various factors add their own layer of complexity. And there really isn't a simple way to solve that today. And that is just, you know, one example of an issue that happens. I think another, you know, whole new ballgame of issues come in the context of security, right? Because when you are deploying applications at scale, in a distributed manner, you got to make sure someone's job is on the line to ensure that the right security policies are enforced regardless of that scale factor. So I think that's another example of problems that occur. >> Okay, so I have to ask about scale, because there are a lot of multiple steps involved when you see the success of cloud native, you know, you see some experimentation, they set up a cluster, say it's containers and Kubernetes. And then you say, okay, we got this. We configure it. And then they do it again, and again, they call it day two. Some people call it day one, day two operation, whatever you call it. Once you get past the first initial thing, then you got to scale it. Then you're seeing security breaches. You're seeing configuration errors. This seems to be where the hotspot is, in when companies transition from, I got this, to oh no, it's harder than I thought at scale. Can you share your reaction to that and how you see this playing out? >> Yeah, so, you know, I think it's interesting. There's multiple problems that occur when the two factors of scale, as we talked about, start expanding. I think one of them is what I like to call the, it works fine on my cluster problem, which is back in, when I was a developer, we used to call this, it works on my laptop problem. Which is, you know, you have your perfectly written code that is operating just fine on your machine, your sandbox environment. But the moment it runs production, it comes back with P 0s and POS from support teams, et cetera. And those issues can be really difficult to try us, right. And so in the Kubernetes environment, this problem kind of multi-folds. It goes, you know, escalates to a higher degree because you have your sandbox developer environments, they have their clusters, and things work perfectly fine in those clusters, because these clusters are typically handcrafted or a combination of some scripting and handcrafting. And so as you give that change to then run at your production Edge location, like say your radial cell power site, or you hand it over to a customer to run it on their cluster, they might not have configured that cluster exactly how you did, or they might not have configured some of the infrastructure plugins. And so things don't work. And when things don't work, triaging them becomes nightmarishly hard, right? It's just one of the examples of the problem. Another whole bucket of issues is security, which is, as you have these distributed clusters at scale. You got to ensure someone's job is on the line to make sure that the security policies are configured properly. >> So this is a huge problem. I love that comment. That's not happening on my system. It's the classic, you know, debugging mentality. But at scale, it's hard to do that with error prone. I can see that being a problem. And you guys have a solution you're launching, can you share what Arlon is? This new product? What is it all about? Talk about this new introduction. >> Yeah absolutely, I'm very, very excited. You know, it's one of the projects that we've been working on for some time now. Because we are very passionate about this problem and just solving problems at scale in OnPrem or in the cloud or at Edge environments. And what Arlon is, it's an open source project, and it is a tool, a Kubernetes native tool for complete end-to-end management of not just your clusters, but your clusters, all of the infrastructure that goes within and along the sites of those clusters, security policies, your middleware plugins, and finally your applications. So what Arlon lets you do in a nutshell is in a declarative way, it lets you handle the configuration and management of all of these components in at scale. >> So what's the elevator pitch simply put for what this solves in terms of the chaos you guys are reigning in, what's the bumper sticker. What did it do? >> There's a perfect analogy that I love to reference in this context, which is, think of your assembly line, you know, in a traditional, let's say an auto manufacturing factory, or et cetera, and the level of efficiency at scale that that assembly line brings, right. Arlon, and if you look at the logo we've designed, it's this funny little robot. And it's because when we think of Arlon, we think of these enterprise large scale environments, you know, sprawling at scale, creating chaos, because there isn't necessarily a well thought through, well-structured solution that's similar to an assembly line, which is taking each component, you know, addressing them, manufacturing, processing them in a standardized way, then handing to the next stage where again, it gets processed in a standardized way. And that's what Arlon really does. That's like the elevator pitch. If you have problems of scale, of managing your infrastructure, you know, that is distributed, Arlon brings the assembly line level of efficiency and consistency for those problems. >> So keeping it smooth, the assembly line, things are flowing, see CI/CD pipe-lining. So that's what you're trying to simplify that OPS piece for the developer. I mean, it's not really OPS, it's their OPS, it's coding. >> Yeah, not just developer the OPS, the operations folks as well, right. Because developers, you know, developers are responsible for one picture of that layer, which is my apps. And then maybe that middleware of applications that they interface with. But then they hand it over to someone else who's then responsible to ensure that these apps are secured properly, that they are logging, logs are being collected properly. Monitoring and observability is integrated. And so it solves problems for both those teams. >> Yeah, it's DevOps. So the DevOps is the cloud native developer. The OPS team have to kind of set policies. Is that where the declarative piece comes in? Is that why that's important? >> Absolutely, yeah. And you know, Kubernetes really introduced or elevated this declarative management, right. Because you know, Kubernetes clusters are you know your specifications of components that go in Kubernetes are defined in a declarative way. And Kubernetes always keeps that state consistent with your defined state. But when you go outside of that world of a single cluster, and when you actually talk about defining the clusters or defining everything that's around it, there really isn't a solution that does that today. And so Arlon addresses that problem at the heart of it. And it does that using existing open source, well known solutions. >> And do I want to get into the benefits, what's in it for me as the customer, developer, but I want to finish this out real quick and get your thoughts. You mentioned open source. Why open source? What's the current state of the product? You run the product group over there at Platform9. Is it open source, and you guys have a product that's commercial? Can you explain the open source dynamic? And first of all, why open source? And what is the consumption? I mean open source is great. People want opensource, they can download and look up the code, but maybe want to buy the commercial. So I'm assuming you have that thought through. Can you share open source and commercial relationship? >> Yeah, I think, you know, starting with why opensource? I think it's, you know, we, as a company, we have one of the things that's absolutely critical to us is that we take mainstream open source technologies, components, and then we make them available to our customers at scale through either a SaaS model or OnPrem model, right. But so as we are a company or startup, or a company that benefits, you know, in a massive way by this open source economy, it's only right I think in my mind that we do are part of the duty, right. And contribute back to the community that feeds us. And so, you know, we have always held that strongly as one of our principles. And we have, you know, created and built independent products, starting all the way with Fission, which was a serverless product that we had built, to various other examples that I can give. But that's one of the main reasons why open source. And also open source because we want the community to really first-hand engage with us on this problem, which is very difficult to achieve if your product is behind a wall, you know, behind a black box. >> Well, and that's what the developers want too. What we're seeing in reporting with Supercloud is the new model of consumption is I want to look at the code and see what's in there. >> That's right. >> And then also if I want to use it, I'll do it, great. That's open source, that's the value. But then at the end of the day, if I want to move fast, that's when people buy in. So it's a new kind of freemium, I guess, business model. I guess that's the way it is, but that's the benefit of open source. This is why standards and open source is growing so fast. You have that confluence of, you know, a way for developers to try before they buy, but also actually kind of date the application, if you will. We, you know, Adrian Kakroff uses the dating metaphor, you know, hey, you know, I want to check it out first before I get married. And that's what open source is. So this is the new, this is how people are selling. This is not just open source. This is how companies are selling. >> Absolutely, yeah, yeah. You know, I think two things, I think one is just, you know, this cloud native space is so vast that if you're building a cluster solution, sometimes there's also a risk that it may not apply to every single enterprises use cases. And so having it open source gives them an opportunity to extend it, expand it, to make it proper to their use case, if they choose to do so, right. But at the same time, what's also critical to us, is we are able to provide a supported version of it, with an SLA that's backed by us, a SaaS-hosted version of it as well for those customers who choose to go that route. You know, once they have used the open source version and loved it and want to take it at scale and in production and need a partner to collaborate with who can support them for that production environment. >> I have to ask you. Now let's get into what's in it for the customer? I'm a customer. Why should I be enthused about Arlon? What's in it for me? You know, 'cause if I'm not enthused about it, I'm not going to be confident, and it's going to be hard for me to get behind this. Can you share your enthusiastic view of, you know, why I should be enthused about Arlon, if I'm a customer. >> Yeah, absolutely. And so, and there's multiple, you know, enterprises that we talk to, many of them, are customers where this is a very kind of typical story that you will hear, which is we have a Kubernetes distribution. It could be On-Premise. It could be public cloud native Kubernetes. And then we have our CI/CD pipelines that are automating the deployment of applications, et cetera. And then there's this gray zone. And the gray zone is, well before you can, your CI/CD pipelines can deploy the apps, somebody needs to do all of their groundwork of, you know, defining those clusters, and yeah properly configuring them. And as these things start by being done hand-grown. And then as you scale, what typically enterprises would do today is they will have their homegrown DIY solutions for this. I mean, the number of folks that I talk to that have built Terraform automation, and then, you know, some of those key developers leave. So it's a typical open source, or typical, you know, DIY challenge. And the reason that they're writing it themselves is not because they want to. I mean, of course technology is always interesting to everybody, but it's because they can't find a solution that's out there that perfectly fits their problem. And so that's that pitch. I think OPS people would be delighted. The folks that we've talked, you know, spoken with have been absolutely excited and have shared that this is a major challenge we have today, because we have few hundreds of clusters on EKS, Amazon, and we want to scale them to few thousands, but we don't think we are ready to do that. And this will give us the ability to do that. >> Yeah, I think people are scared. I won't say scared, that's a bad word. Maybe I should say that they feel nervous because you know, at scale, small mistakes can become large mistakes. This is something that is concerning to enterprises. And I think this is going to come up at KubeCon this year where enterprises are going to say, okay, I need to see SLAs. I want to see track record. I want to see other companies that have used it. How would you answer that question to, or challenge, you know, hey I love this, but is there any guarantees? Is there any, what's the SLAs? I'm an enterprise, I got tight. You know, I love the open source trying to free, fast and loose, but I need hardened code. >> Yeah, absolutely. So two parts to that, right? One is Arlon leverages, existing opensource components, products that are extremely popular. Two specifically, one is Arlon uses Argo CD, which is probably one of the highest rated and used CD opensource tools that's out there, right. Created by folks that are as part of Intuit team now, you know, really brilliant team, and it's used at scale across enterprises. That's one. Second is Arlon also makes use of cluster API, CAPI, which is a Kubernetes sub-component, right for lifecycle management of clusters. So there is enough of, you know, community users, et cetera, around these two products or open source projects that will find Arlon to be right up in their alley, because they're already comfortable, familiar with Argo CD. Now Arlon just extends the scope of what Argo CD can do. And so that's one. And then the second part is going back to your point of the comfort. And that's where, you know, Platform9 has a role to play, which is when you are ready to deploy Arlon at scale, because you've been, you know playing with it in your DEV test environments, you're happy with what you get with it. Then Platform9 will stand behind it and provide that SLA. >> And what's been the reaction from customers you've talked to, Platform9 customers that are familiar with Argo, and then Arlo? What's been some of the feedback? >> Yeah, I think the feedback's been fantastic. I mean, I can give you examples of customers where you know, initially, when you're telling them about your entire portfolio of solutions, it might not strike a chord right away. But then we start talking about Arlon, and we talk about the fact that it uses Argo CD. They start opening up, they say, we have standardized on Argo, and we have built these components homegrown. We would be very interested. Can we co-develop? Does it support these use cases? So we've had that kind of validation. We've had validation all the way at the beginning of Arlon, before we even wrote a single line of code, saying this is something we plan on doing. And the customer said, if you had it today, I would've purchased it. So it's been really great validation. >> All right, so next question is what is the solution to the customer? If I asked you, look, I'm so busy. My team's overworked, I got a skills gap. I don't need another project. I'm so tied up right now, and I'm just chasing my tail. How does Platform9 help me? >> Yeah, absolutely. So I think, you know, one of the core tenants of Platform9 has always been, that we try to bring that public cloud like simplicity by hosting, you know, this and a lot of such similar tools in a SaaS hosted manner for our customers, right. So our goal behind doing that is taking away, or trying to take away all of that complexity from customer's hands and offloading it to our hands, right. And giving them that full white glove treatment as we call it. And so from a customer's perspective, one, something like Arlon will integrate with what they have, so they don't have to rip and replace anything. In fact, it will even in the next versions, it may even discover your clusters that you have today, and give you an inventory. >> So customers have clusters that are growing. That's a sign, call you guys. >> Absolutely, either they have massive, large clusters, right, that they want to split into smaller clusters, but they're not comfortable doing that today. Or they've done that already on say public cloud or otherwise. And now they have management challenges. >> So, especially operationalizing the clusters, whether they want to kind of reset everything and move things around, and reconfigure, and or scale out. >> That's right, exactly. >> And you provide that layer of policy. >> Absolutely, yes. >> That's the key value here. >> That's right. >> So policy based configuration for cluster scale up. >> Profile and policy based declarative configuration and life cycle management for clusters. >> If I asked you how this enables Supercloud, what would you say to that? >> I think this is one of the key ingredients to Supercloud, right? If you think about a Supercloud environment, there is at least few key ingredients that come to my mind that are really critical. Like they are, you know, life saving ingredients at that scale. One is having a really good strategy for managing that scale, you know, in a going back to assembly line, in a very consistent, predictable way. So that, Arlon solves. Then you need to compliment that with the right kind of observability and monitoring tools at scale, right? Because ultimately issues are going to happen, and you're going to have to figure out, you know, how to solve them fast. And Arlon, by the way also helps in that direction. But you also need observability tools. And then especially if you're running it on the public cloud, you need some cost management tools. In my mind, these three things are like the most necessary ingredients to make Supercloud successful. And you know, Arlon is one of them. >> Okay so now the next level is, okay, that makes sense is under the covers, kind of speak under the hood. How does that impact the app developers of the cloud native modern application workflows? Because the impact to me seems, the apps are going to be impacted. Are they going to be faster, stronger? I mean, what's the impact if you do all those things, as you mentioned, what's the impact of the apps? >> Yeah, the impact is that your apps are more likely to operate in production the way you expect them to, because the right checks and balances have gone through. And any discrepancies have been identified prior to those apps, prior to your customer running into them, right? Because developers run into this challenge today where there's a split responsibility, right. I'm responsible for my code. I'm responsible for some of these other plugins, but I don't own these stack end to end. I have to rely on my OPS counterpart to do their part, right. And so this really gives them the right tooling for that. >> This is actually a great kind of relevant point. You know, as cloud becomes more scalable, you're starting to see this fragmentation, gone are the days of the full stack developer, to the more specialized role. But this is a key point. And I have to ask you, because if this Arlo solution takes place, as you say, and the apps are going to do what they're designed to do, the question is what does the current pain look like? Are the apps breaking? What is the signals to the customer that they should be calling you guys up and implementing Arlo, Argo, and all the other goodness to automate, what are some of the signals? Is it downtime? Is it failed apps? Is it latency? What are some of the things that would be indications of things are effed up a little bit. >> Yeah, more frequent down times, down times that take longer to triage. And so your, you know, your mean times on resolution, et cetera, are escalating or growing larger, right? Like we have environments of customers where they have a number of folks in the field that have to take these apps, and run them at customer sites. And that's one of our partners. And they're extremely interested in this, because the rate of failures they're encountering for this, you know, the field when they're running these apps on site, because the field is automating their clusters that are running on sites using their own script. So these are the kinds of challenges. So those are the pain points, which is, you know, if you're looking to reduce your meantime to resolution. If you're looking to reduce the number of failures that occur on your production site, that's one. And second, if you're looking to manage these at scale environments with a relatively small focused nimble OPS team, which has an immediate impact on your budget. So those are the signals. >> This is the cloud native at scale situation. The innovation going on. Final thought is your reaction to the idea that if the world goes digital, which it is, and the confluence of physical and digital coming together, and cloud continues to do its thing, the company becomes the application. Not where IT used to be supporting the business, you know, the back office, and the immediate terminals and some PCs and handhelds. Now, if technology's running the business, is the business, company's the application. So it can't be down. So there's a lot of pressure on CSOs and CIOs now, and boards are saying, how is technology driving the top line revenue? That's the number one conversation. Do you see the same thing? >> Yeah, it's interesting. I think there's multiple pressures at the CSO, CIO level, right? One, is that there needs to be that visibility and clarity and guarantee almost that, you know, the technology that's going to drive your top line is going to drive that in a consistent, reliable, predictable manner. And then second, there is the constant pressure to do that while always lowering your costs of doing it, right. Especially when you're talking about, let's say retailers, or those kinds of large scale vendors, they many times make money by lowering the amount that they spend providing those goods to their end customers. So I think both those factors kind of come into play and the solution to all of them is usually in a very structured strategy around automation. >> Final question. What does cloud native at scale look like to you? If all the things happen the way we want 'em to happen, the magic wand, the magic dust, what does it look like? >> What that looks like to me is a CIO sipping at his desk on coffee. Production is running absolutely smooth. And he's running that at a nimble, nimble team size of, at the most, a handful of folks that are just looking after things, but things are just taking care of themselves. >> And the CIO doesn't exist. There's no CISO, they're at the beach. >> (laughing) Yeah. >> Madhura, thank you for coming on, sharing the cloud native at scale here on theCUBE. Thank you for your time. >> Fantastic, thanks for having me. >> Okay, I'm John Furrier here for special program presentation, special programming Cloud Native at Scale, Enabling Supercloud Modern Applications with Platform9. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>And welcome to this cube conversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John furrier, host of the cube. We have a great guest coming in remotely from LA Christian Hernandez developer experienced lead at code fresh code fresh IO. Recently they were on our feature at a startup showcase series, season two episode one cloud data innovations, open source innovations, all good stuff, Christian. Thanks for coming on this cube conversation. >>Thank you. Thank you, John. Thank you for having me on, >>You know, I'm I was really impressed with code fresh. My met with the founders on here on the cube because GI ops AI, everything's something ops devs dev sec ops. You've got AI ops. You've got now GI ops, essentially operationalizing the software future is here and software's eating the world is, was written many years ago, but it's open source is now all. So all things software's open source and that's kind of a done deal. It's only getting better and better. Mainstream companies are contributing. You guys are on this wave of, of this open source tsunami and you got cloud scale. Automation's right there, machine learning, all this stuff is now the next gen of, of, of code, right? So you, your code fresh and your title is developer experience lead. What does that mean right now? What does it mean to be a developer experience lead? Like you make sure people having a good experience. Are you developing you figuring out the product? What does that mean? >>Yeah. That's and it's also part of the, the whole Debre explosion that's happening right now. I believe it's, you know, everyone's always asking, well, what, you know, what is developer advocate? What does that mean developer experience? What does that mean? So, so you, you kind of hit the nail on the head a little bit up there in, in the beginning, is that the, the experience of the developer when using a particular platform, right? Especially the code flash platform. That is my responsibility there at code fresh to enable, to enable end users, to enable partners, to enable, you know, anyone that wants to use the code fresh platform for their C I C D and get ops square flows. So that's, that's really my, my corner of the world is to make sure their experience is great. So that's, it's really what, what I'm here to do >>At food fresh. You know, one of the things I can say of my career, you've been kind of become a historian over time. When I was a developer back in the old days, it was simply you compiled stuff, you did QA on it. You packaged it out. You wanted out the door and you know, that was a workflow right now with the cloud. I was talking with your founders, you got new abstraction layers. Cloud has changed again again, open source. So newer things are coming, right? Like, like, like Kubernetes for instance is a great example that came out of the open source kind of the innovations. But that, and Hadoop, we were mentioning before he came on camera from a storage standpoint, kind of didn't make it because it was just too hard. Right. And it made the developer's job harder. And then it made the developer's requirements to be specialized. >>So you had kind of two problems. You had hard to use a lot of friction and then it required certain expertise when the developers just want to code. Right. So, so you have now the motion of, with GI ops, you guys are in the middle of kinda this idea of frictionless based software delivery with the cloud. So what's different now, can you talk about that specific point because no one wants to be, do hard work and have to redo things. Yeah. Shift left and all that good stuff. What's hard now, what do you guys solve? What's the, what's the friction that you're taking out what's to become frictionless. >>Yeah. Yeah. And you, you, you mentioned a very interesting point about how, you know, things that are coming out almost makes it seem harder nowadays to develop an application. You used to have it to where, you know, kind of a, sort of a waterfall sort of workflow where, you know, you develop your code, you know, you compile it. Right. You know, I guess back in the day, Java was king. I think Java still is, has a, is a large footprint out there where you would just compile it, deploy it. If it works, it works. Alright cool. And you have it and you kind of just move it along in its process. Whereas I think the, the whole idea of, I think Netflix came out with like the, the fail often fail fast release often, you know, the whole Atlassian C I C D thing, agile thing came into play. >>Where now it's, it's a little bit more complex to get your code out there delivered to get your code from one environment to the other environment, especially with the, the Avan of Kubernetes and cloud native architecture, where you can deploy and have this imutable infrastructure where you can just deploy and automate so quickly. So often that there needs to be some sort of new process now into place where to have a new process, like GI ops to where it'll, it it's frictionless, meaning that it's, it, it makes it that process a little easier makes that little, that comp that complex process of deploying onto like a cloud native architecture easier. So that way, as you said before, returning the developers to back to what they care about, mot, the most is just code. I just want to code. >>Yeah. You know, the other thing, cool thing, Christian, I wanna bring up and we'll get into some of the specifics around Argo specifically CD is that the community is responding as a kind of, it takes a village kind of mindset. People are getting into this just saying, Hey, if we can get our act together around some de facto workflows and de facto capabilities, everyone wins. It's a rising tide, floats all boats, kind of concept. CNCF certainly has been a big part of that. Even seen some of the big hyper scales getting behind it. But you guys are part of the founding members of the open get ups working group, Amazon Azure, GitHub, red hat Weaveworks and then a ton of contributors. Okay. So this is kind of cool. This means that there's like people behind this thing. Look, we gotta get here faster. What happened at co con this year? You guys had some news around Argo and you had some news around the hosted solution. Can you take a minute to explain two things, one the open community vibe, and then two, what you guys announced at Coon in Spain. >>Yeah. Yeah. So as far as open get ups, that was, you know, as you said before, code fresh was part of that, that founding committee. Right. Of, of group of people trying to figure out, define what get ups is. Right. We're trying to bring it beyond the, you know, the, the hype word, right beyond just like a marketing term to where we actually define what it actually is, because it is actually something that's out there that people are doing. Right. A lot of people, you know, remember that the, the Chick-fil-A story where it's like, they, they are completely doing, you know, this get ops thing, we're just now wanting, putting definition around it. So that was just amazing to see out at there in, in Cuban. And, but like you said, in QAN, we, you know, we're, we're, we're taking some of that, that acceleration that we see in the community to, and we, we announce our, our hosted get ops offering. >>Right. So hosted get ops is something that our customers have been asking for for a while. Many times when, you know, someone wants to use something like Argo CD, the, in, they install it on their cluster, they get up and running. And, but with, with all that comes like the feed and care of that platform, and, you know, not only just keeping the lights on, but also management security, you know, general maintenance, you know, all the things that, that come along with managing a system. And on top of that comes like the scale aspect of it. Right. And so with scale, so a lot of people go with like a hub and spoke others, go with like a fleet design in, in either case, right. There's, there's a challenge for the feet and care of it. Right. And so with code fresh coast of get ups, we take that management headache away. >>Right? So we, we take the, the, the management of, of Argo CD, the management of, of all of that, and kind of just offer Argo CD as a surface, right. Which offers, you know, allows users to, you know, let us take care of all the, of the get offs, runtime. And so they can concentrate on, you know, their application deployments. Right. And you also get things like Dora metrics, right. Integrated with the platform, you have the ability to integrate multiple CI providers, you know, like get hub actions or whatever, existing Jenkins pipelines. And really that, that code fresh platform becomes like your get ops platform becomes like, you know, your, your central view of the world of, of your, you know, get ups processes. >>Yeah. I mean, that whole single source of truth concept is really kind of needed. I gotta ask you though, with the popularity of the Argo CD on get ups internally, right. That's been clear, right. Kubernetes, the way that's going, it's accelerating fast. People want simple it's scaling, you got automation built in all that good stuff. What was the driver behind the hosted get up solution? Was it customer needs? Was it efficiency all the above? What was specifically and, and why would someone want to have the hosted versus say internal? >>Yeah. So it's, it was really driven by, you know, customer need been something that the customers have been asking for. And it's also been something that, you know, you, you, you have a process of developing an application to, you know, you know, a fleet of clusters in a traditional, you know, I keep saying traditional, get outs practice as if get outs are so old. And, you know, in, you know, when, when, when people first start out, they'll start, you know, installing Argo city on all these clusters and trying to manage that at scale it's, it's, it, it seemed like there was, you know, it it'd be nice if we can just like, be able to consume this as a service. So we don't have to like, worry about, you know, you know, best practices. We don't have to worry about security. We don't just, all of that is taken care of and managed by us at code fresh. So this is like something that, you know, has been asked for and, and something that, you know, we believe will accelerate, you know, developers into actually developing their, their applications. They don't have to worry about managing >>The platform. So just getting this right. Hosted, managed service by you guys on this one, >>Correct? Yes. >>Okay. Got it. All right. So let me, let me get in the Argo real quick, just to kind of just level set for the folks that are, are leaning into this and then kicking the tires. Where are we with Argo? What, why was it so popular? What did it do specifically? Did it just make it easier for developers to manage and monitor Kubernetes, keep 'em updated? What was the specific value behind Argo? Where, where, where did it come from and why is it so popular? >>Yeah, so Argo the Argo project, which is made up of, of a few tools, usually when people say Argo, they meet, they they're talking about Argo CD, but there's also Argo workflows, Argo events, Argo notifications. And, and like I said before, CD with that, and that is something that was developed internally at Intuit. Right? So for those of who don't know, Intuit is the company behind turbo tax. So for those, those of us in the us, we, we know, you know, we know that season all too well, the tax season. And so that was a tool that was developed internally. >>And by the way, Intuit we've done many years. They're very huge cloud adopters. They've been on that train from the day one. They've been, they've been driving a lot of cloud scale too. Sorry >>To interrupt. Yeah. And, and, and yeah, no, and, and, and also, you know, they, they were always open source first, right. So they've always had, you know, they developed something internally. They always had the, the intention of opensourcing it. And so it was really a tool that was born internally, and it was a tool that helped them, you know, get stuff done with Kubernetes. And that's kind of like the tagline they use for, for the Argo project is you need to get stuff done. They wanted their developers to focus less on deploying the application and more right. More than on writing the application itself. And so the, and so the Argo project is a suite of tools essentially that helps deploy onto Kubernetes, you know, using get ups as that, you know, that cornerstone in design, right in the design philosophy, it's so popular because of the ease of use and developer friendliness aspect of it. It's, it's, it's, it's meant to be simple right. In and simple in a, in a good sense of getting up and running, which attracted, you know, developers from, you know, all around the world. You know, other companies like red hat got into it as well. BlackRock also is, is a, is a big contributor, thousands of other independent contributors as well to the Argo project. >>Yeah. Christian, if you bring up a good point and I'm gonna go on a little tangent here, but I wanna get your reaction to something that Dave ante and I, and our cube team has been kind of riffing on lately. You mentioned, you know, Netflix earlier, you mentioned Intuit. There's a kind of a story that's been developing and, and with traction and momentum and trajectory over the past, say 10 years, the companies that went on the cloud, like Netflix into it, snowflake, snowflake, not so much now, but in terms of open source, they're all contributing lift. They're all contributing back to open source, but they're not cloud providers. Right. So you're seeing that kind of first generation, I's a massive contribution to open source. So open source been around for a while, remember the early days, and we'd all participate on projects, but now you have real companies building IP going open source first because they're on a hyperscale cloud, but they're not the cloud themselves. They took advantage of that. So there's kind of this cycle of flywheel of cloud to open source, not from the vendors themselves like Amazon, which services or Azure, but the people who rode their CapEx and built on that scale, feeding into the open source. And then coming back, this is kind of an interesting dynamic. What's your reaction to that? Do you see that? Yeah. Super cloud kind of vibe there. >>Yeah. Yeah. Well, and, and also it, it, I think it's, it's a, it's indicative that, you know, open source is not only, you know, a way to develop, you know, applications, a way to engineer, you know, your project, but also kind of like a strategic advantage in, in, in such a way. Right. You know, you, you see, you see companies like, like, like even like Microsoft has been going into, you know, open source, right. They they've been going to open source first. They made a, a huge pivot to, you know, using open source as, you know, like, like a, like a strategic direction for, for the company. And I think that goes back to, you know, a little bit for my roots, you know, I, I, I always, I always talk about, you know, I always talk about red hat, right. I always talk about, you know, I was, I was, I was in red hat previously and, you know, you know, red hat being, you know, the first billion dollar open source company. >>Right. I, we always joke is like, well, you know, internally, like we know you were a billion dollar company that sold free software. How, you know, how, how does that happen? But it's, it's, it's really, you know, built into the, built into being able to tap into those expert resources. Yeah. You know, people love using software. People love the software they love using, and they wanna improve it. Companies are now just getting out of their way. Yeah. You know, companies now, essentially, it's just like, let's just get out of the way. Let's let people work on, you know, what they wanna work on. They love the software. They wanna improve it. Let's let them, >>It's interesting. A lot of people love the clouds have all this power. If you think about what we are just riffing on and what you just said, the economics and the organic self-governing has always been the open source way where commercial value is enabled. If you play ball, right. Like, oh, red hat, for instance. And now you're seeing the community kind of be that arbiter of the cloud. So, Hey, if everyone can create value on say AWS or Azure, bring it to open source, everyone benefits across all clouds hope eventually. So the choice aspect comes in. So this community angle is huge. And I think it's changing a lot for the better. And I think this is where we're seeing a lot of that growth. And you guys have been the middle level with the Argo project and get ups specifically in that, in that sector. How have you seen that growth? What some dynamics have you seen power dynamics, organic? Is it governed well, whats some of the, the successes, what are some of the challenges? Can you share your thoughts on the community's growth around get ops and Argo project? >>Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I've been, you know, part of some of these communities, right? Like the, the open, get, get ops community, the Argos community pretty much from the beginning and, and seeing it developed from an idea to, you know, having all these contributors, having, you know, the, the, the buzzword come out of it, you know, the get ups and it be that being the, you know, having it, you know, all over the, you know, social media, all over LinkedIn, all over all, all these, all these different channels, you know, I I've seen things like get ops con, right. So, you know, being part of the, get ops open, get ops community, you know, one of the things we did was we did get ops con it started as a meetup, you know, couple years ago. And now, you know, it was a, you know, we had an actual event at Cuan in Los Angeles. >>You know, we had like, you know, about 50 people there, but then, you know, Cuan in Valencia this past Cuan we had over 200 people, it was a second largest co-located events in, at Cuan. So that just, just seeing that community and, you know, from a personal standpoint, you know, be being part of that, that the, the community being the, the event chair, right. Yeah. Being, being one of the co-chairs was a, was a moment of pride for me being able to stand up there and just seeing a sea of people was like, wow, we just started with a handful of people at a meetup. And now, you know, we're actually having conferences and, and, and speaking of conference, like the Argo community as well, we put in, you know, we put on a virtual only event on Argo con last year. We're gonna do it in person today. You know, this year. >>Do you have a date on that? Do you have a date on that Argo con 22? >>Two? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Argo con September 19th, 2022. So, you know, mark your calendars, it it's, you know, it's a multi-day event, you know, it's, it's part of something else that I've seen in the community where, you know, first we're talk talking about these meetups. Now we're doing multi-day events. We're, you know, in talks of the open, get ups, you know, get ups can also make that a multi-day event. There's just so many talks in so many people that want to be involved in network that, you know, we're saying, well, we're gonna need more days because there's just so many people coming to these events, you know, in, in, you know, seeing these communities grow, not just from like the engineering standpoint, but also from the end user standpoint, but also from the people that are actually doing these things. And, you know, seeing some of these use cases, seeing some of the success, seeing some of the failures, right? Like people love listening to those talks about postmortems, I think are part of my favorite talks as well. So seeing that community grow is, is, you know, on a personal level, it's, it's a point >>It's like CSI for software developers. You want to curious about >>Exactly >>What happened. You know, you know, it's interesting, you mentioned about the, the multiple events at Coon. You know, the vibe that's going on is a very festival vibe, right? You have organic groups coming together. I remember when they had just started doing the day zero programs. Now you have like, almost like multiple stages of content at these events. It feels like, like a Coachella vibe or some sort of like festival vibe, like a lot of things going on and you, and if you pick your kind of area, but you can move around, I find that the kind of the format de Azure I think is going well these days. What do you think about that? >>Yeah, yeah. No, for sure. It's and, and, and I love that that analogy of Coachella, it does feel like, you know, it's, there's something for everyone and you can find what you like, and you'll find a little, you know, a little group, right. A little click of, of, of people that's probably the wrong term to use, but you know, you, you find, you know, you, you know, like-minded people and, you know, passionate about the same thing, right? Like the security guys, they, you know, you see them all clump together, right? Like you see like the, the developer C I CD get ops guys, we all kind of clump together and start talking, you know, about everything that we're doing. And it's, that's, that's, I think that's really something special that coupon, you know, some, you know, it's gotten so big that it's almost impossible to fit everything in a, in a week, because unless there's just so much to do. And there's so much that that interests, you know, someone, but it's >>A code, a code party is what we call it. It's a code party. Yeah. >>It's, it's a code party for sure. For >>Sure. Nerd nerd Fest on, on steroids. Hey, I gotta get, I wanna wrap this up and give you the final word, Christian. Thanks for coming on. Great insight, great conversation. There's a huge, you guys are in the middle of a hot area, obviously large scale data growth. Kubernetes is scaling beautifully and making it easier at managed services. What people want machine learning's kicking in and, and you get automation building in all favoring, the developer and C I CD pipeline and all that good stuff. People want to learn more. Can you take a minute to put the plug in for code fresh on the certification? How do I get involved? Where are you? Is there levels if I want to jump in and get trained and get fluent on code fresh, can you share commentary and, and, and what the status is? >>Yeah, yeah, for sure. So code fresh is offering a free certification, right? For get ups or Argo CD and get ops. The first of it's kind for Argo CD, first of it's kind for get ops is you can actually go get certified with Argo CD and get ops. You know, we there level one is out right now. You can go take that code, fresh.io/certification. It's out there, sign up, you know, you, you don't, you don't need to pay anything, right. It's, it's something it's a, of a free course. You could take level two is coming soon. Right? So level two is coming soon in the next few months, I believe I don't wanna quote a specific day, but soon because I, but soon I, it it's soon, soon as in, as in months. Right? So, you know, we're, we're counting that down where you can not only level one cert level certification, but a level, two more advanced certification for those who have been using Argo for a while, they can still, you know, take that and be, you know, be able to get, you know, another level of certification for that. So also, you know, Argo con will be there. We're, we're part of the programming committee for Argo con, right? This is a community driven event, but, you know, code fresh is a proud diamond sponsor. So we'll be there. >>Where's it located up to us except for eptember 19th multiday or one day >>It's a, it's a multi-day event. So Argo con from 19, 19 20 and 21 in a mountain view. So it'll be in mountain view in the bay area. So for those of you who are local, you can just drive in. Great. >>I'm write that down. I'll plug it. I'll put in the show notes. >>Awesome. Awesome. Yeah. And you will be there so you can talk to me, you can talk to anyone else at code, fresh talking about Argo CD, you know, find, find out more about hosted, get ups code, fresh.io. You know, you can find us in the Argo project, open, get ups community, you know, we're, we're, we're deep in the community for both Argo and get ups. So, you know, you can find us there as well. >>Well, let's do a follow up in when you're in town, so's only a couple months away and getting through the summer, it's already, I can't believe events are back. So it's really great to see face to face in the community. And there was responding. I mean, co con in October, I think that was kind of on the, that was a tough call and then get to see your own in Spain. I couldn't make it. Unfortunately, I had got COVID came down with it, but our team was there. Open sources, booming continues to go. The next level, new power dynamics are developing in a great way. Christian. Thanks for coming on, sharing your insights as the developer experience lead at code fresh. Thanks so much. >>Thank you, John. I appreciate it. >>Okay. This is a cube conversation. I'm John feer, host of the cube. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) >> Kubernetes is maturing for example moving from quarterly releases to three per year, it's adding many of the capabilities that early on were avoided by Kubernetes committers, but now are going more mainstream, for example, more robust security and better support from mobile cluster management and other functions. But core Kubernetes by itself, doesn't get organizations where they need to go. That's why the ecosystem has stepped up to fill the gaps in application development. Developers as we know, they don't care about infrastructure, but they do care about building new apps, they care about modernizing existing apps, leveraging data, scaling, they care about automation look, they want to be cloud native. And one of the companies leading the ecosystem charge and building out more robust capabilities is Red Hat. And ahead of KubeCon Spain. It's our pleasure to welcome in Stu Miniman director of market insights at Red Hat to preview the event, Stu, good to see you, how you been? >> I'm doing awesome, Dave. Thanks for having me, great to be here. >> Yeah. So what's going on in Kube land these days? >> So it's funny Dave, if you were to kind of just listen out there in the marketplace, the CNCF has a survey that's like 96% of companies running Kubernetes production, everybody's doing it. And others will say, oh no, Kubernetes, only a small group group of people are using it, it's already probably got newer technologies that's replacing it. And the customers that I'm talking to Dave, first of all, yes, containers of Kubernetes, great growth growth rate, good adoption overall, I think we've said more than a year or two ago, we've probably crossed that chasm, the Jeff Moore, it's longer the early people just building all their own thing, taking all the open source, building this crazy stack that they need to had to do a lot of work we used to say. Chewing glass to be able to make it work right or anything, but it's still not as easy as you would like, almost no company that I talk to, if you're talking about big enterprises has Kubernetes just enterprise wide, and a hundred percent of their applications running on it. What is the tough challenge for people? And I mean, Dave, something, you and I have covered for many, many years, , that application portfolio that I have, most enterprises, hundreds, thousands of applications modernizing that having that truly be cloud native, that that's a really long journey and we are still in the midst of that, so I still still think we are in that, that if you look at the cross in the chasm that early majority chunk, so some of it is how do we mature things even better? And how do we make things simpler? Talk about things like automation, simplicity, security, we need to make sure they're all there so that it can be diffused and rolled out more broadly. And then we also need to think about where are we? We talk about the next million cloud customers, where does Kubernetes and containers and all the cloud native pieces fit into that broader discussion. Yes, there's some maturity there and we can declare victory on certain things, but there's still a lot, a lot of work that everyone's doing and that leads us into the show. I mean, dozens of projects that are already graduated, many more along that process from sandbox through a whole bunch of co-located events that are there, and it's always a great community event which Red Hat of course built on open source and community projects, so we're happy to have a good presence there as always. >> So you and I have talked about this in the past how essentially container's going to be embedded into a lot of different places, and sometimes it's hard to find, it's hard to track, but if you look at kind of the pre DevOps world skillsets like provisioning LANs, or configuring ports, or troubleshooting, squeezing more, server utilism, I mean, those who are really in high demand. If that's your skillset, then you're probably out of a job today. And so that's shifted toward things like Kubernetes. So you see and you see in the ETR data, it's along with cloud, and RPA, or automation, it is right up there I mean, it's top, the big four if you will, cloud, automation, RPA, and containers. And so we know there's a lot of spending activity going on there, but sometimes, like I said, it's hard to track I mean, if you got cloud growing at 35% a year, at least for the hyperscalers that we track, Kubernetes should be growing faster than that, should it not? >> Yeah, Dave, I would agree with you when I look at the big analyst firms that track this, I believe they've only got the container space at about a 25 per percent growth rate. >> Slower than cloud. But I compare that with Deepak Singh who runs at AWS, he has the open source office, he has all the containers and Kubernetes, and has visibility in all of that. And he says, basically, containers of the default when somebody's deploying to AWS today. Yes, serverless has its place, but it has not replaced or is not pushing down, slowing down the growth of containers or Kubernetes. We've got a strong partnership, I have lots of customers running on AWS. I guess I look at the numbers and like you, I would say that I would expect that that growth rate to be north of where just cloud in general is because the general adoption of containers and Kubernetes, we're still in the early phases of things. >> And I think a lot of the spendings Stu is actually in labor resources within companies and that's hard to track. Let's talk about what we should expect at the show. Obviously this whole notion of secure supply chain was a big deal last year in LA, what's hot? >> Yeah, so security Dave, absolutely. You said for years, it's a board level discussion, it's now something that really everyone in the organization has to know about the dev sec ops movement, has seen a lot of growth, secure supply chain, we're just trying to make sure that when I use open source, there's lots of projects, there is the huge ecosystem in marketplaces that are out there. So I want to make sure that as I grab all of the pieces that I know where they got came from the proper signature certification to make sure that the full solution that I build, I understand it. And if there are vulnerabilities, I know if there's an issue, how I patch it in the industry, we talk about CBEs, so those vulnerabilities, those exploits that come out, then everybody has to do a quick runaround to understand wait, hey, is my configuration? Am I vulnerable? Do I have to patch things? So security, absolutely still a huge, huge thing. Quick from a Red Hat standpoint, people might notice we made an acquisition a year ago of StackRox. That product itself also now has a completely fully open source project itself, also called StackRox. So the product is Red Hat advanced cluster security for Kubernetes, there's an open source equivalent for that called StackRox now, open source, community, there's a monthly office hour live streaming that a guy on my team actually does, and so there'll be a lot of activity at the show talking about security. So many other things happening at the show Dave. Another key area, you talked about the developers and what they want to worry about and what they don't. In the container space, there's a project called Knative. So Google helped create that, and that's to help me really have a serverless operational model, with still the containers and Kubernetes underneath that. So at the show, there will be the firs Knative con. And if you hadn't looked at Knative in a couple of years, one of the missing pieces that is now there is eventing. So if I look at functions and events, now that event capability is there, it's something I've talked to a lot of customers that were waiting for that to have it. It's not quite the same as like a Lambda, but is similar functionality that I can have with my containers in Kubernetes world. So that's an area that's there and so many others, I mean, GitOps are super hot at the last show. It's something that we've seen, really broad adoption since Argo CD went generally available last year, and lots of customers that are taking that to help them. That's both automation put together because I can allow GitHub to be my single source of truth for where I keep code, make sure I don't have any deviation from where the kind of the golden image if you will, it lives. >> So we're talking earlier about, how hard it is to track this stuff. So with the steep trajectory of growth and new customers coming on, there's got to be a lot of experimentation going on. That probably is being done, somebody downloads the open source code and starts playing with it. And then when they go to production that I would imagine Stu that's the point at which they say, hey, we need to fill some of these gaps. And they reach out to a company like yours and say, now we got to have certifications and trust., Do you. see that? >> So here's the big shift that happened, if we were looking four or five years ago, absolutely, I'd grab the open source code and some people might do that, but what cloud really enabled Dave, is rather than just grabbing, going to the dot the GitHub repo and pulling it down itself, I can go to the cloud so Microsoft, AWS, and Google all have their Kubernetes offering and I click a button. But that just gives me Kubernetes so there's still a steep learning curve. And as you said to build out out that full stack, that is one of the big things that we do with OpenShift is we take dozens of projects, pull them in together so you get a full platform. So you spend less time on curating, integrating, and managing that platform. And more time on the real value for your business, which is the application stack itself, the security and the like. And when we deliver OpenShift in the cloud, we have an SRE team that manages that for you. So one of the big challenges we have out there, there is a skillset gap, there are thousands of people getting certified on Kubernetes. There are, I think I saw over a hundred thousand job openings with Kubernetes mentioned in it, we just can't train people up fast enough, and the question I would have as an enterprise company is, if I'm going to the cloud, how much time do I want to build having SREs, having them focus on the infrastructure versus the things that are business specific. What did Amazon promise Dave? We're going to help you get rid of undifferentiated heavy lifting. Well, I just consume things as a service where I have an SRE team manage that environment. That might make more sense so that I can spend more time focusing on my business activities. That's a big focus that we've had on Red Hat, is our offerings that we have with the cloud providers to do and need offering. >> Yeah, the managed service capability is key. We saw, go back to the Hadoop days, we saw that's where Cloudera really struggled. They had to support every open source project. And then the customers largely had to figure it out themselves. Whereas you look at what data bricks did with spark. It was a managed service that was getting much greater adoption. So these complex areas, that's what you need. So people win sometimes when I use the term super cloud, and we getting little debates on Twitter, which is a lot of fun, but the idea is that you create the abstraction layer that spans your on-prem, your cloud, so you've got a hybrid. You want to go across clouds, what people call multi-cloud but as you know, I've sort of been skeptical of multi-cloud is really multi-vendor. But so we're talking about a substantial experience that's identical across those clouds and then ultimately out to the edge and we see a super Paas layer emerging, And people building on top of that, hiding the underlying complexity. What are your thoughts on that? How does Kubernetes in your view fit in? >> Yeah, it's funny, Dave, if you look at this container space at the beginning, Docker came out of a company called dotCloud. That was a PaaS company. And there's been so many times that that core functionality of how do I make my developers not have to worry about that underlying gank, but Dave, while the storage people might not have to worry about the LANs, somebody needs to understand how storage works, how networking works, if something breaks, how do I make sure I can take care of it. Sometimes that's a service that the SRE team manages that away from me. so that yes, there is something I don't need to think of about, but these are technically tough configurations. So first to one of your main questions, what do we see in customers with their hybrid and multi-cloud journey? So OpenShift over 10 years old, we started OpenShift before Kubernetes even was a thing. Lots of our customers run in what most people would consider hybrid, what does that mean? I have something in my data center, I have something in the cloud, OpenShift health, thanks to Kubernetes, I can have consistency for the developers, the operators, the security team, across those environments. Over the last few years, we've been doing a lot in the Kubernetes space as a whole, as the community, to get Kubernetes out to the edge. So one of the nice things, where do containers live Dave? Anywhere Linux does, is Linux going to be out of the edge? Absolutely, it can be a small footprint, we can do a lot with it. There were a lot of vendors that came out with it wasn't quite Kubernetes, they would strip certain things out or make a configuration that was smaller out at the edge, but a lot of times it was something that was just for a developer or something I could play with, and what it would break sometimes was that consistency out at the edge to what my other environments would like to have. And if I'm a company that needs consistency there. So take for example, if I have an AI workload where I need edge, and I need something in the cloud, or in my data center of consistency. So the easy use case that everybody thinks about is autonomous vehicles. We work with a lot of the big car manufacturers, I need to have when my developer build something, and often my training will be done either in the data center or in the public cloud, but I need to be able to push that out to the vehicle itself and let it run. We've actually even got Dave, we've got Kubernetes running up on the ISS. And you want to make sure that we have a consistency. >> The ultimate edge. >> Yeah, so I said, right, it's edge above and beyond the clouds even, we've gone to beyond. So that is something that the industry as a whole has been working at, from a Red Hat standpoint, we can take OpenShift to a really small footprint. Last year we launched was known as single node OpenShift. We have a project called micro shift, which is also fully open source that it has less pieces of the overall environment to be able to fit onto smaller and smaller devices there. But we want to be able to manage all of them consistently because you talked about multi cluster management. Well, what if I have thousands or 10 of thousands of devices out of the edge? I don't necessarily have network, I don't have people, I need to be able to do things from an automated standpoint. And that's where containers and Kubernetes really can shine. And where a lot of effort has been done in general and something specifically, we're working on it, Red Hat, we've had some great customers in the telecommunication space. Talk about like the 5G rollout with this, and industrial companies that need to be able to push out at the edge for these type of solutions. >> So you just kind of answered my next question, but I want to double click on it which was, if I'm in the cloud, why do I need you? And you touched on it because you've got primitives, and APIs, and AWS, Google, and Microsoft, they're different, if you're going to hide the underlying complexity of that, it takes a lot of RND and work, now extend that to a Tesla. You got to make it run there, different use case, but that's kind of what Linux and OpenShift are design to do, so double click on that. >> Yeah, so right. If I look at the discussion you've been having about super clouds is interesting because there are many companies that we work with that do live across multiple environments. So number one, if I'm a developer, if my company came to me and said, hey, you've got all your certifications and you got years of experience running on Amazon, well, we need you to go run over on Google. That developer might switch companies rather than switch clouds because they've got all of their knowledge and skillset, and it's a steep learning curve. So there's a lot of companies that work on, how can we give you tools and solutions that can live across those environments? So I know you mentioned companies like Snowflake, MongoDB, companies like Red Hat, HashiCorp, GitLab, also span all of those environments. There's a lot of work, Dave, to be different than not just, I say, I don't love the term like we're cloud agnostic, which would mean, well, you can use any cloud. >> You can run on any cloud. >> That's not what we're talking about. Look at the legacy that Red Hat has is, Red Hat has decades of running in every customer's data center and pick your X 86 server of choice. And we would have deep relationships when Dell, HP, IBM, Lenovo, you name it, comes out with a new piece of hardware that was different. We would have to make sure that the Linux primitives work from a Red Hat standpoint. Interesting Dave, we're now supporting OpenShift on Azure Stack Hub. And I talked to our head of product management, and I said, we've been running OpenShift in Azure for years, isn't Azure Stack Hub? Isn't that just Azure in your data center. He's like, yeah, but down at the operating system level, we had to change some flags and change some settings and things like that, so what do we know in IT? It's always the yeah, at the high level, it looks the same, it acts the same, it feels the same. >> Seamless. >> It's seamless in everything when you get down to the primitives level, sometimes that we need to be able to do that. I'll tell you Dave, there's things even when I look at A cloud, if I'm in US East One, or US West One, there actually could be some differences in what services are there or how things react, and so therefore we have a lot of deep work that goes into all of those environments, and it's not just Red Hat, we have a marketplace and an ecosystem, we want to make sure you've got API compatibility across all of those. So we are trying to help lift up this entire ecosystem and bring everybody along with it because you set it at the upfront, Kubernetes alone won't do it, oo one vendor gives you an entire, everything that you need for your developer tool chain. There's a lot that goes into this, and that's where we have deep commitment to partnerships. We build out and support lots of ecosystems. And this show itself is very much a community driven show. And, and therefore, that's why Red Hat has a strong presence at it, 'cause that's the open source community and everything that we built on. >> You guys are knee deep in it. You know I wrote down when you were talking about Snowflake and Mongo, HashiCorps, another one, I wrote down Dell, HP, Cisco, Lenovo, that to me, that should be their strategy. NetApp, their strategy should be to basically build out that abstraction layer, the so-called super cloud. So be interesting to see if they're going to be at this show. It requires a lot of R and D number one, number two, to your point, it requires an ecosystem. So you got all these guys, most of them now do in their own as a service, as a service is their own cloud. Their own cloud means you better have an ecosystem that's robust. I want to ask you about, do you ever think about what's next beyond Kubernetes? Or do you feel like, hey, there's just so much headroom in Kubernetes and so many active projects, we got ways to go. >> Yeah, so the Kubernetes itself Dave, should be able to fade into the background some. In many ways it does mirror what happened with Linux. So Linux is just the foundation of everything we have. We would not have the public cloud providers if it wasn't for Linux. I mean, Google, of course you wouldn't have without Linux, Amazon. >> Is on the internet. >> Right, but you might not have a lot of it. So Kubernetes, I think really goes the same way is, it is the foundational layer of what so much of it is built on top of it, and it's not really. So many people think about that portability. Oh, Google's the one that created it, and they wanted to make sure that it was easy if I want to go from the cloud provider that I had to use Kubernetes on Google cloud. And while that is a piece of it, that consistency is more important. And what I can build on top of it, it is really more of a distributed systems challenge that we are solving and that we've been working on in industry now for decades. So that is what we help solve, and what's really nice, containers and Kubernetes, it's less of an abstraction, it's more of new atomic unit of how we build things. So virtualization, I don't know what's underneath, and we spent like a decade fixing the storage networking components underneath so that the LANs matched right, and the network understood what was happening in the virtual machine. The atomic unit of a container, which is what Kubernetes manages is an application or a piece of an application. And therefore that there is less of an abstraction, more of just a rearchitecting of how we build things, and that is part of what is needed, and boy, Dave, the ecosystem, oh my God, yes, we've gone to only three releases a year, but I can tell you our roadmaps are all public on the internet and we talk heavily about them. There is still so many things that just at the basic Kubernetes piece, new architectures, arm devices are now in there, we're now supporting them, Kubernetes can support them too. So there are so many hardware pieces that are coming, so many software devices, the edge, we talked about it a bit, so there's so much that's going on. One of the areas that I love hearing about at the show, we have a community event called OpenShift Comments, which one of the main things of OpenShift Comments, is customers coming to talk about what they've been doing, and not about our products, we're talking about the projects and their journey overall. We've got a at Flenty Show, Airbus and Telefonica, are both going to be talking about what they're doing. We've seen Dave, every industry is going through their digital transformation journey. And it's great to hear straight from them what they're doing, and one of the big pieces in area, we actually spend a bunch of time on that application journey. There's a group of open source projects under what's known as Konveyor, that's conveyor with a K, Konveyor.io. It's modernization in migration. So how do I go from a VM to a container? How do I go from my data center to a cloud? How do I switch between services, open source projects to help with that journey? And, oh my gosh, Dave, I mean, you know in the cloud space, I mean that's what all the SIs and all the consultancies are throwing thousands of people at, is to help us get along that curve of that modernization journey. >> Okay, so let's see May 16th, the week of May 16th is KubeCon in Valencia Spain. theCUBE's going to be there, there was a little bit of a curfuffle on Twitter because the mask mandate was lifted in Spain and people had made plans thinking, okay, it's safe everybody's going to be wearing masks. Well, now I mean, you're going to have to make your own decisions on that front. I mean, you saw that you follow Twitter quite closely, but hey, this is the world we live in. So I'll give you the last word. >> Yeah, we'll see if Twitter still exists by the time we get to that show with. >> Could be private. What happens, but yeah, no, Dave, I'll be participating remotely, it is a hybrid event, so one of the things we'll be watching is, how many people are there in person LA was a pretty small show, core contributors, brought it back to some of the early days that you covered heavily from theCUBE standpoint, how Valencia will be? I know from Red Hat standpoint, we have people there, many of them from Europe, both speaking, we talked about many of the co-located events that are there, so a lot of pieces all participate remotely. So if you stop by the OpenShift commons event, I'll be part of the event just from a hybrid standpoint. And yeah, we've actually got the week before, we've got Red Hat Summit. So it's nice to actually to have back to back weeks. We'd had that a whole bunch of times before I remember, back to back weeks in Boston one year where we had both of those events and everything. That's definitely. >> Connective tissue. >> Keeps us busy there. You've got a whole bunch of travel going on. I'm not doing too much travel just yet, Dave, but it's good to see you and it's great to be connected with community. >> Yeah, so theCUBE will be there. John Furrier is hosting with Keith Townsend. So if you're in Valencia, definitely stop by. Stu thanks so much for coming into theCUBE Studios I appreciate it. >> Thanks, Dave. >> All right, and thank you for watching. We'll see you the week of May 16th in Valencia, Spain. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome to this startup showcase. It's great to be here and talk about some of the innovations we are doing at AWS, how we work with our partner community, especially our open source partners. My name is Deepak Singh. I run our compute services organization, which is a very vague way of saying that I run a number of things that are connected together through compute. Very specifically, I run a container services organization. So for those of you who are into containers, ECS, EKS, fargate, ECR, App Runner Those are all teams that are within my org. I also run the Amazon Linux and BottleRocketing. So anything AWS does with Linux, both externally and internally, as well as our high-performance computing team. And perhaps very relevant to this discussion, I run the Amazon open source program office. Serving at AWS for over 13 years, almost 14, involved with compute in various ways, including EC2. What that has done has given me a vantage point of seeing how our customers use the services that we build for them, how they leverage various partner solutions, and along the way, how AWS itself has gotten involved with opensource. And I'll try and talk to you about some of those factors and how they impact, how you consume our services. So why don't we get started? So for many of you, you know, one of the things, there's two ways to look at AWS and open-source and Amazon in general. One is the number of contributors you may have. And the number of repositories that contribute to. Those are just a couple of measures. There are people that I work with on a regular basis, who will remind you that, those are not perfect measures. Sometimes you could just contribute to one thing and have outsized impact because of the nature of that thing. But it address being what it is, increasingly we'll look at different ways in which we can help contribute and enhance open source 'cause we consume a lot of it as well. I'll talk about it very specifically from the space that I work in the container space in particular, where we've worked a lot with people in the Kubernetes community. We've worked a lot with people in the broader CNCF community, as well as, you know, small projects that our customers might have got started off with. For example, I want to like talking about is Argo CD from Intuit. We were very actively involved with helping them figure out what to do with it. And it was great to see how into it. And we worked, etc, came together to think about get-ups at the Kubernetes level. And while those are their projects, we've always been involved with them. So we try and figure out what's important to our customers, how we can help and then take because of that. Well, let's talk about a little bit more, here's some examples of the kinds of open source projects that Amazon and AWS contribute to. They arranged from the open JDK. I think we even now have our own implementation of Java, the Corretto open source project. We contribute to projects like rust, where we are very active in the rest foundation from a leadership role as well, the robot operating system, just to pick some, we collaborate with Facebook and actively involved with the pirates project. And there's many others. You can see all the logos in here where we participate either because they're important to us as AWS in the services that we run or they're important to our customers and the services that they consume or the open source projects they care about and how we get to those. How we get and make those decisions is often depends on the importance of that particular project. At that point in time, how much impact they're having to AWS customers, or sometimes very feel that us contributing to that project is super critical because it helps us build more robust services. I'll talk about it in a completely, you know, somewhat different basis. You may have heard of us talk about our new next generation of Amazon Linux 2022, which is based on fedora as its sub stream. One of the reasons we made this decision was it allows us to go and participate in the preneurial project and make sure that the upstream project is robust, stays robust. And that, that what that ends up being is that Amazon Linux 2022 will be a robust operating system with the kinds of capabilities that our customers are asking for. That's just one example of how we think about it. So for example, you know, the Python software foundation is something that we work with very closely because so many of our customers use Python. So we help run something like PyPy which is many, you know, if you're a Python developer, I happened to be a Ruby one, but lots of our customers use Python and helping the Python project be robust by making sure PyPy is available to everybody is something that we help provide credits for help support in other ways. So it's not just code. It can mean many different ways of contributing as well, but in the end code and operations is where we hang our happens. Good examples of this is projects that we will create an open source because it makes sense to make sure that we open source some of the core primitives or foundations that are part of our own services. A great example of that, whether this be things that we open source or things that we contribute to. And I'll talk about both and I'll talk about things near and dear to my heart. There's many examples I've picked the two that I like talking about. The first of these is firecracker. Many of you have heard about it, a firecracker for those of you who don't know is a very lightweight virtual machine manager, which allows you to run these micro VMs. And why was this important many years ago when we started Lambda and quite honestly, Fugate and foggy, it still runs quite a bit in that mode, we used to have to run on VMs like everything else and finding the right VM for the size of tasks that somebody asks for the size of function that somebody asks for is requires us to provision capacity ahead of time. And it also wastes a lot of capacity because Lambda function is small. You won't even if you find the smallest VM possible, those can be a little that can be challenging. And you know, there's a lot of resources that are being wasted. VM start at a particular speed because they have to do a whole bunch of things before the operating system spins up and the virtual machine spins up and we asked ourselves, can we do better? come up with something that allows us to create right size, very lightweight, very fast booting. What's your machines, micro virtual machine that we ended up calling them. That's what led to firecracker. And we open source the project. And today firecrackers use, not just by AWS Lambda or foggy, but by a number of other folks, there's companies like fly IO that are using it. We know people using firecracker to run Kubernetes on prem on bare metal as an example. So we've seen a lot of other folks embrace it and use it as the foundation for building their own serverless services, their own container services. And we think there's a lot of value and learnings that we can bring to the table because we get the experience of operating at scale, but other people can bring to the table cause they may have specific requirements that we may not find it as important from an AWS perspective. So that's firecracker an example of a project where we contribute because we feel it's fundamentally important to us as continually. We were found, you know, we've been involved with continuity from the beginning. Today, we are a whole team that does nothing else, but contribute to container D because container D underlies foggy. It underlies our Kubernetes offerings. And it's increasingly being used by customers directly by their placement. You know, where they're running container D instead of running a full on Docker or similar container engine, what it has allowed us to do is focus on what's important so that we can operate continuously at scale, keep it robust and secure, add capabilities to it that AWS customers need manifested often through foggy Kubernetes, but in the end, it's a win-win for everybody. It makes continuously better. If you want to use containers for yourself on AWS, that's a great way to you. You know, you still, you still benefit from all the work that we're doing. The decision we took was since it's so important to us and our customers, we wanted a team that lived in breathed container D and made sure a super robust and there's many, many examples like that. No, that we ended up participating in, either by taking a project that exists or open sourcing our own. Here's an example of some of the open source projects that we have done from an AWS on Amazon perspective. And there's quite a few when I was looking at this list, I was quite surprised, not quite surprised I've seen the reports before, but every time I do, I have to recount and say, that's a lot more than one would have thought, even though I'd been looking at it for such a long time, examples of this in my world alone are things like, you know, what work had to do with Amazon Linux BottleRocket, which is a container host operating system. That's been open-sourced from day one. Firecracker is something we talked about. We have a project called AWS peril cluster, which allows you to spin up high performance computing clusters on AWS using the kind of schedulers you may use to use like slum. And that's an open source project. We have plenty of source projects in the web development space, in the security space. And more recently things like the open 3d engine, which is something that we are very excited about and that'd be open sourced a few months ago. And so there's a number of these projects that cover everything from tooling to developer, application frameworks, all the way to database and analytics and machine learning. And you'll notice that in a few areas, containers, as an example, machine learning as an example, our default is to go with open source option is where we can open source. And it makes sense for us to do so where we feel the product community might benefit from it. That's our default stance. The CNCF, the cloud native computing foundation is something that we've been involved with quite a bit. You know, we contribute to Kubernetes, be contribute to Envoy. I talked about continuity a bit. We've also contributed projects like CDK 8, which marries the AWS cloud development kit with Kubernetes. It's now a sandbox project in Kubernetes, and those are some of the areas. CNCF is such a wide surface area. We don't contribute to everything, but we definitely participate actively in CNCF with projects like HCB that are critical to eat for us. We are very, very active in just how the project evolves, but also try and see which of the projects that are important to our customers who are running Kubernetes maybe by themselves or some other project on AWS. Envoy is a good example. Kubernetes itself is a good example because in the end, we want to make sure that people running Kubernetes on AWS, even if they are not using our services are successful and we can help them, or we can work on the projects that are important to them. That's kind of how we think about the world. And it's worked pretty well for us. We've done a bunch of work on the Kubernetes side to make sure that we can integrate and solve a customer problem. We've, you know, from everything from models to work that we have done with gravity on our arm processor to a virtual GPU plugin that allows you to share and media GPU resources to the elastic fabric adapter, which are the network device for high performance computing that it can use at Kubernetes on AWS, along with things that directly impact Kubernetes customers like the CDKs project. I talked about work that we do with the container networking interface to the Amazon control of a Kubernetes, which is an open source project that allows you to use other AWS services directly from Kubernetes clusters. Again, you notice success, Kubernetes, not EKS, which is a managed Kubernetes service, because if we want you to be successful with Kubernetes and AWS, whether using our managed service or running your own, or some third party service. Similarly, we worked with premetheus. We now have a managed premetheus service. And at reinvent last year, we announced the general availability of this thing called carpenter, which is a provisioning and auto-scaling engine for Kubernetes, which is also an open source project. But here's the beauty of carpenter. You don't have to be using EKS to use it. Anyone running Kubernetes on AWS can leverage it. We focus on the AWS provider, but we've built it in such a way that if you wanted to take carpenter and implemented on prem or another cloud provider, that'd be completely okay. That's how it's designed and what we anticipated people may want to do. I talked a little bit about BottleRocket it's our Linux-based open-source operating system. And the thing that we have done with BottleRocket is make sure that we focus on security and the needs of customers who want to run orchestrated container, very focused on that problem. So for example, BottleRocket only has essential software needed to run containers, se Linux. I just notice it says that's the lineups, but I'm sure that, you know, Lena Torvalds will be pretty happy. And seeing that SE linux is enabled by default, we use things like DM Verity, and it has a read only root file system, no shell, you can assess it. You can install it if you wanted to. We allowed it to create different bill types, variants as we call them, you can create a variant for a non AWS resource as well. If you have your own homegrown container orchestrator, you can create a variant for that. It's designed to be used in many different contexts and all of that is open sourced. And then we use the update framework to publish and secure repository and kind of how this transactional system way of updating the software. And it's something that we didn't invent, but we have embraced wholeheartedly. It's a bottle rockets, completely open source, you know, have partners like Aqua, where who develop security tools for containers. And for them, you know, something I bought in rocket is a natural partnership because people are running a container host operating system. You can use Aqua tooling to make sure that they have a secure Indiana environment. And we see many more examples like that. You may think so over us, it's all about AWS proprietary technology because Lambda is a proprietary service. But you know, if you look peek under the covers, that's not necessarily true. Lambda runs on top of firecracker, as we've talked about fact crackers and open-source projects. So the foundation of Lambda in many ways is open source. What it also allows people to do is because Lambda runs at such extreme scale. One of the things that firecracker is really good for is running at scale. So if you want to build your own firecracker base at scale service, you can have most of the confidence that as long as your workload fits the design parameters, a firecracker, the battle hardening the robustness is being proved out day-to-day by services at scale like Lambda and foggy. For those of you who don't know service support services, you know, in the end, our goal with serverless is to make sure that you don't think about all the infrastructure that your applications run on. We focus on business logic as much as you can. That's how we think about it. And serverless has become its own quote-unquote "Sort of environment." The number of partners and open-source frameworks and tools that are spun up around serverless. In which case mostly, I mean, Lambda, API gateway. So it says like that is pretty high. So, you know, number of open source projects like Zappa server serverless framework, there's so many that have come up that make it easier for our customers to consume AWS services like Lambda and API gateway. We've also done some of our own tooling and frameworks, a serverless application model, AWS jealous. If you're a Python developer, we have these open service runtimes for Lambda, rust dot other options. We have amount of number of tools that we opened source. So in general, you'll find that tooling that we do runtime will tend to be always be open-sourced. We will often take some of the guts of the things that we use to build our systems like firecracker and open-source them while the control plane, etc, AWS services may end up staying proprietary, which is the case in Lambda. Increasingly our customers build their applications and leverage the broader AWS partner network. The AWS partner network is a network of partnerships that we've built of trusted partners. when you go to the APN website and find a partner, they know that that partner meets a certain set of criteria that AWS has developed, and you can rely on those partners for your own business. So whether you're a little tiny business that wants some function fulfill that you don't have the resources for or large enterprise that wants all these applications that you've been using on prem for a long time, and want to keep leveraging them in the cloud, you can go to APN and find that partner and then bring their solution on as part of your cloud infrastructure and could even be a systems integrator, for example, to help you solve this specific development problem that you may have a need for. Increasingly, you know, one of the things we like to do is work with an apartment community that is full of open-source providers. So a great one, there's so many, and you have, we have a panel discussion with many other partners as well, who make it easier for you to build applications on AWS, all open source and built on open source. But I like to call it a couple of them. The first one of them is TIDELIFT. TIDELIFT, For those of you who don't know is a company that provides SAS based tools to curate track, manage open source catalogs. You know, they have a whole network of maintainers and providers. They help, if you're an independent open developer, or a smart team should probably get to know TIDELIFT. They provide you benefits and, you know, capabilities as a developer and maintainer that are pretty unique and really help. And I've seen a number of our open source community embraced TIDELIFT quite honestly, even before they were part of the APN. But as part of the partner network, they get to participate in things like ISP accelerate and they get to they're officially an advanced tier partner because they are, they migrated the SAS offering onto AWS. But in the end, if you're part of the open source supply chain, you're a maintainer, you are a developer. I would recommend working with TIDELIFT because their goal is making all of you who are developing open source solutions, especially on AWS, more successful. And that's why I enjoy this partnership with them. And I'm looking to do a lot more because I think as a company, we want to make sure that open source developers don't feel like they are not supported because all you have to do is read various forums. It's challenging often to be a maintainer, especially of a small project. So I think with helping with licensing license management, security identification remediation, helping these maintainers is a big part of what TIDELIFT to us and it was great to see them as part of a partner network. Another partner that I like to call sysdig. I actually got introduced to them many years ago when they first launched. And one of the things that happened where they were super interested in some of our serverless stuff. And we've been trying to figure out how we can work together because all of our customers are interested in the capabilities that cystic provides. And over the last few years, he found a number of areas where we can collaborate. So sysdig, I know them primarily in a security company. So people use cystic to secure the bills, detect, you know, do threat response, threat detection, completely continuously validate their posture, get this continuous analytics signal on how they're doing and monitor performance. At the end of it, it's a SAS platform. They have a very nice open source security stack. The one I'm most familiar with. And I think most of you are probably familiar with is Falco. You know, sysdig, a CNCF project has been super popular. It's just to go SSS what 3, 37, 40 million downloads by now. So that's pretty, pretty cool. And they have been a great partner because we've had to do make sure that their solution works at target, which is not a natural place for their software to run, but there was enough demand and interest from our customers that, you know, or both companies leaned in to make sure they can be successful. So last year sister got a security competency. We have a number of specific competencies that we for our partners, they have integration and security hub is great. partners are lean in the way cystic has onto making our customer successful. And working with us are the best partners that we have. And there's a number of open source companies out there built on open source where their entire portfolio is built on open source software or the active participants like we are that we love working with on a day to day basis. So, you know, I think the thing I would like to, as we wind this out in this presentation is, you know, AWS is constantly looking for partnerships because our partners enable our customers. They could be with companies like Redis with Mongo, confluent with Databricks customers. Your default reaction might be, "Hey, these are companies that maybe compete with AWS." but no, I mean, I think we are partners as well, like from somebody at the lower end of the spectrum where people run on top of the services that I own on Linux and containers are SE 2, For us, these partners are just as important customers as any AWS service or any third party, 20 external customer. And so it's not a zero sum game. We look forward to working with all these companies and open source projects from an AWS perspective, a big part of how, where my open source program spends its time is making it easy for our developers to contribute, to open source, making it easy for AWS teams to decide when to open source software or participate in open source projects. Over the last few years, we've made significant changes in how we reduce the friction. And I think you can see it in the results that I showed you earlier in this stock. And the last one is one of the most important things that I say and I'll keep saying that, that we do as AWS is carry the pager. There's a lot of open source projects out there, operationalizing them, running them at scale is not easy. It's not all for whatever reason. It may not have anything to do with the software itself. But our core competency is taking that and being really good at operating it and becoming experts at operating it. And then ideally taking that expertise and experience and operating that project, that software and contributing back upstream. Cause that makes it better for everybody. And I think you'll see us do a lot more of that going forward. We've been doing that for the last few years, you know, in the container space, we do it every day. And I'm excited about the possibilities. With that. Thank you very much. And I hope you enjoy the rest of the showcase. >> Okay. Welcome back. We have Deepak sing here. We just had the keynote closing keynote vice-president of compute services. Deepak. Great to a great keynote, great wisdom and insight from that session. A very notable highlights and cutting edge trends and product information. Thanks for sharing. >> No, anytime it's always good to be here. It's too bad that we still doing this virtually, but always good to talk to you, John. >> We'll get hopefully through this way pretty quickly, I want to jump right in. Cause we don't have a lot of time. I want to get some quick question. You've brought up a good things. Open source innovation. Okay. Going next level. You've seen the rise of super clouds and super apps developing at open source. You're seeing big companies contributing, you know, you mentioned Argo into it. You're seeing that dynamic where companies are forming around this. This is a rising tide. This is, this is actually real. It's not the old school of, okay, here's a project. And then someone manages support and commercialization of it. It's actually platform in cloud scale. This is next gen. >> Yeah. And actually I think it started a few years ago. We can talk about a company that, you know, you're very familiar with as part of this event, which is armory many years ago, Netflix spun off this project called Spinnaker. A Spinnaker is CISED you know, CSED system that was developed at Netflix for their own purposes, but they chose to open solicit. And since then, it's become very popular with customers who want to use it even on prem. And you have a company that spun up on it. I think what's making this world very unique is you have very large companies like Facebook that will build things for themselves like VITAS or Netflix with Spinnaker and open source them. And you can have a lot of discussion about why they chose to do so, etc. But increasingly that's becoming the default when Amazon or Netflix or Facebook or Mehta, I guess you call them these days, build something for themselves for their own needs. The first question we ask ourselves is, should it be opensource? And increasingly we are all saying yes. And here's what happens because of that. It gives an opportunity depending on how you open source it for innovation through commercial deployments, so that you get SaaS companies, you know, that are going to take that product and make it relevant and useful to a very broad number of customers. You build partnerships with cloud providers like AWS, because our customers love this open source project and they need help. And they may choose an AWS managed service, or they may end up working with this partner on a day-to-day basis. And we want to work with that partner because they're making our customers successful, which is one reason all of us are here. So you're having this set of innovation from large companies from, you know, whether they are just consumer companies like Metta infrastructure companies like us, or just random innovation that's happening in an open source project that which ends up in companies being spun up and that foster that innovative innovation and that flywheel that's happening right now. And I think you said that like, this is unique. I mean, you never saw this happen before from so many different directions. >> It really is a nice progression on the business model side as well. You mentioned Argo, which is a great organic thing that was Intuit developed. We just interviewed code fresh. They just presented here in the showcase as well. You seeing the formation around these projects develop now in the community at a different scale. I mean, look at code fresh. I mean, Intuit did it Argo and they're not just supporting it. They're building a platform. So you seeing the dynamics of tools and now emerging the platforms, you mentioned Lambda, okay. Which is proprietary for AWS and your talk powered by open source. So again, open source combined with cloud scale allows for new potential super applications or super clouds that are developing. This is a new phenomenon. This isn't just lift and shift and host on the cloud. This is actually a construction production developer workflow. >> Yeah. And you are seeing consumers, large companies, enterprises, startups, you know, it used to be that startups would be comfortable adopting some of these solutions, but now you see companies of all sizes doing so. And I said, it's not just software it's software, the services increasingly becoming the way these are given, delivered to customers. I actually think the innovation is just getting going, which is why we have this. We have so many partners here who are all in inventing and innovating on top of open source, whether it's developed by them or a broader community. >> Yeah. I liked, I liked the represent container. Do you guys have, did that drove that you've seen a lot of changes and again, with cloud scale and open source, you seeing the dynamics change, whether you're enabling that, and then you see kind of like real big change. So let's take snowflake, a big customer of AWS. They started out as a startup too, but they weren't a data warehouse. They were bringing data warehouse like functionality and then changing everything differently and making it consumable for the cloud. And hence they're huge. So that's a disruption into an incumbent leader or sector. Then you've got new capabilities emerging. What's your thoughts, Deepak? Can you share your vision on how you have the disruption to existing leaders, old guard, if you will, as you guys call them and then new capabilities as these new platforms emerge at a net new functionality, how do you see that emerging? >> Yeah. So I speak from my side of the world. I've lived in over the last few years, which has containers and serverless, right? There's a lot of, if you go to any enterprise and ask them, do you want to modernize the infrastructure? Do you want to take advantage of automated software delivery, continuous delivery infrastructure as code modern observability, all of them will say yes, but they also are still a large enterprise, which has these enterprise level requirements. I'm using the word enterprise a lot. And I usually it's a trigger word for me because so many customers have similar requirements, but I'm using it here as large company with a lot of existing software and existing practices. I think the innovation that's coming and I see a lot of companies doing that is saying, "Hey, we understand the problems you want to solve. We understand the world where you live in, which could be regulated." You want to use all these new modalities. How do we allow you to use all of them? Keep the advantages of switching to a Lambda or switching to, and a service running on far gate, but give you the same capabilities. And I think I'll bring up cystic here because we work so closely with them on Falco. As an example, I just talked about them in my keynote. They could have just said, "Oh no, we'll just support the SE2 and be done with it." They said, "No, we're going to make sure that serverless containers in particular are something that you're going to be really good at because our customers want to use them, but requires us to think differently. And then they ended up developing new things like Falco that are born in this new world, but understand the requirements of the old world. If you get what I'm saying. And I think that a real example. >> Yeah. Oh, well, I mean, first of all, they're smart. So that was pretty obvious for most people that know, sees that you can connect the dots on serverless, which is a great point, but not everyone can see that again, this is what's new and and systig was just found in his backyard. As I found out on my interview, a great, great founder, they would do a new thing. So it was a very easy to connect the dots there again, that's the trend. Well, I got to ask if they're doing that for serverless, you mentioned graviton in your speech and what came out of you mentioned graviton in your speech and what came out of re-invent this past year was all the innovation going on at the compute level with gravitron at many levels in the Silicon. How should companies and open source developers think about how to innovate with graviton? >> Yeah, I mean, you've seen examples from people blogging and tweeting about how fast their applications run and grab it on the price performance benefits that they get, whether it's on, you know, whether it's an observability or other places. something that AWS is going to embrace across a compute something that AWS is going to embrace across a compute portfolio. Obviously you can go find EC2 instances, the gravitron two instances and run on them and that'll be great. But we know that most of our customers, many of our customers are building new applications on serverless containers and serveless than even as containers increasingly with things like foggy, where they don't want to operate the underlying infrastructure. A big part of what we're doing is to make sure that graviton is available to you on every compute modality. You can run it on a C2 forever. You've been running, being able to use ECS and EKS and run and grab it on almost since launch. What do you want me to take it a step further? You elastic Beanstalk customers, elastic Beanstalk has been around for a decade, but you can now use it with graviton. people running ECS on for gate can now use graviton. Lambda customers can pick graviton as well. So we're taking this price performance benefits that you get So we're taking this price performance benefits that you get from graviton and basically putting it across the entire compute portfolio. What it means is every high level service that gets built on compute infrastructure. And you get the price performance benefits, you get the price performance benefits of the lower power consumption of arm processes. So I'm personally excited like crazy. And you know, this has graviton 2 graviton 3 is coming. >> That's incredible. It's an opportunity like serverless was it's pretty obvious. And I think hopefully everyone will jump on that final question as the time's ticking here. I want to get your thoughts quickly. If you look at what's happened with containers over the past say eight years since the original founding of the first Docker instance, if you will, to how that's evolved and then the introduction of Kubernetes and the cloud native wave we're seeing now, what is, how would you describe the relationship between the success Docker, seeing now with Kubernetes in the cloud native construct what's different and why is this combination so successful? >> Yeah. I often say that containers would have, let me rephrase that. what I say is that people would have adopted sort of the modern way of running applications, whether containers came around or not. But the fact that containers came around made that migration and that journey is so much more efficient for people. So right from, I still remember the first doc that Solomon gave Billy announced DACA and starting to use it on customers, starting to get interested all the way to the more sort of advanced orchestration that we have now for containers across the board. And there's so many examples of the way you can do that. Kubernetes being the most, most well-known one. Here's the thing that I think has changed. I think what Kubernetes or Docker, or the whole sort of modern way of building applications has done is it's taken people who would have taken years adopting these practices and by bringing it right to the fingertips and rebuilding it into the APIs. And in the case of Kubernetes building an entire sort of software world around it, the number of, I would say number of decisions people have to take has gone smaller in many ways. There's so many options, the number of decisions that become higher, but the com the speed at which they can get to a result and a production version of an application that works for them is way low. I have not seen anything like what I've seen in the last 6, 7, 8 years of how quickly the most you know, the most I would say is, you know, a company that you would think would never adopt modern technology has been able to go from, this is interesting to getting a production really quickly. And I think it's because the tooling makes it So, and the fact that you see the adoption that you see right and the fact that you see the adoption that you see right from the fact that you could do Docker run Docker, build Docker, you know, so easily back in the day, all the way to all the advanced orchestration you can do with container orchestrator is today. sort of taking all of that away as well. there's never been a better time to be a developer independent of whatever you're trying to build. And I think containers are a big central part of why that's happened. >> Like the recipe, the combination of cloud-scale, the timing of Kubernetes and the containerization concepts just explode as a beautiful thing. And it creates more opportunities and will challenges, which are opportunities that are net new, but it solves the automation piece that we're seeing this again, it's only makes things go faster. >> Yes. >> And that's the key trend. Deepak, thank you so much for coming on. We're seeing tons of open cloud innovations, thanks to the success of your team at AWS and being great participants in the community. We're seeing innovations from startups. You guys are helping enabling that. Of course, they want to live on their own and be successful and build their super clouds and super app. So thank you for spending the time with us. Appreciate. >> Yeah. Anytime. And thank you. And you know, this is a great event. So I look forward to people running software and building applications, using AWS services and all these wonderful partners that we have. >> Awesome, great stuff. Great startups, great next generation leaders emerging. When you see startups, when they get successful, they become the modern software applications platforms out there powering business and changing the world. This is the cube you're watching the AWS startup showcase. Season two episode one open cloud innovations on John Furrier your host, see you next time.

(soft upbeat music) (crowd chattering) >> Over the past 18 to 24 months, chief information security officers have dramatically changed their priorities. They had to, to support the remote work trend. So things like endpoint security, cloud security, and in particular identity and access management became top of mind. And a whole shift occurred. And we're going to talk about that today. Hi everybody, this is Dave Vellante and you're watching theCUBE. We're here at AWS re:Invent 2021. Katie Curtin-Mestre is here. She's the vice president of marketing at CyberArk and Bar Lavie senior product manager at Cloud Identity and Security. Bar, sorry for botching your name, but folks welcome to theCUBE, great to see you. >> Glad to be here. >> Great to hear. >> So Katie, upfront I talked about some of those trends. It's been a hugely dramatic shift away from this kind of traditional approaches to cyber. What are some of the trends that CyberArk has seen? >> Well, Bar is going to take the first part of this. >> Great, just go on. (Bar laughing) >> Yeah, so one trait that we are seeing is that cloud migration projects accelerate as organization turbocharged digital transformation. Is they're a looking to take advantage off the agility and operational efficiency of the cloud providers. Some of the concerns that I can think about one of those is the reducing the potential loss of data that is caused due to the excessive access to resources. And the other one is provision secure and scalable access to resources. And the third one would be implementing least privilege for all type of identity whether if it's a human identity or non-human identity. >> And on that end Dave, we recently commissioned a survey with the Cloud Security Alliance. We co-sponsored a survey and found that 94% of respondents said that securing human permissions was a top security challenge and machine identities weren't far behind at 77%. Another challenge that we're hearing from our customers is the need to secure the secrets used by applications. So we're really excited by today's news from AWS. They announced some new capabilities with a code guru called Secret Detector that helps to find unsecured secrets in applications. And the other concern that we're hearing from our customers is the need to monitor and audit the activity of all of their cloud identities. This is really important to help their security operation teams with their investigations and also to meet audit and compliance requirements. >> So the definition of identity is now more encompassing and includes like you say machines, right? It's not just people anymore. Of course we've seen, you know, phishing has always been problematic. It's escalated daily, right? We get phished. I mean, are we going to see the day where we finally get rid of passwords? Is that even possible? But maybe we could talk a little bit about sort of identity, how identity is evolving, this notion of zero trust. Zero trust used to be a Password. So, maybe Bar you could talk a little bit about what you're seeing in terms of identity access management. Maybe privileged access management are those things coming together? How does CyberArk think about those things? >> You going to take this one Katie >> Well, what CyberArk sees is we definitely see a trend where access management and privileged access management are coming together. Security teams are struggling too many security tools and they're really looking to standardize on a small handful of vendors and get more bank for their buck from their security investment. So we're definitely seeing that trends of unified platforms across access and privileged access management to secure any identity, whether human or machine from kind of like your standard workforce identity, to those who have highly privileged access. >> I don't know if you've ever, ever seen that chart. I think Optiv puts it out. It's consultancy. And it's this eye chart. It's a taxonomy of all the different security I have published at a number of times. it's mind boggling. So CSOs, SecOps teams they have to manage all this complexity, all these different tools and you ask CSOs what's your biggest challenge? They'll tell you lack of skills. We just can't find people. We can't train them fast enough. So what's CyberArk working on? What are some of the key initiatives that you guys are focused on that people should know about? >> Well, one of the things that we're working on is actually, and we see a greater adoption of it is something that was actually started as an initiative within our innovation lab. It's a CyberArk Clouding Titles Manager, which help to detect and remediate excessive permissions to cloud resources for any type of identity. I mentioned before the both human and non-human. Which are the something that you were looking to to secure. Another solution that we see a great adoption is our circuit ranger which helps organization to re remove the necessity of having a hard-coded credentials within application. It can be either traditional applications for their own premise or even cloud native applications. And peg this also into your CI CD pipeline. And we are actually innovating in these type of area with AWS as well. So this is one of the great things that we were doing. Also we're investing on a new solution for just-in-time access for cloud VMs and cloud consoles. And all of these solutions that I've mentioned and more to that are part of our identity security platform which came to provide you with the suite of solution to apply least privilege and secure access to any type of resource from any device for any type of identity. >> So is that best practice? I mean, if you had to, you know, advise a customer on best practice in identity, how should they think about that? Where should they start? >> Well, on the best practices front we recently published an ebook with AWS. And it's focused on the shared responsibility model and foundational best practices for securing cloud access. And it's all part of an initiative that CyberArk has, which is our identity security blueprint. Which guides customers on how best to move forward with their identity security initiatives. >> So where do they start? First of all how do they get that is it a security website or? >> It's available on our website and we detailed some of the steps that that customers can take. For example, one of the steps that we recommend to our customers is to limit the use of the root account and also to very much lock down the root account to use federated identities whenever possible. And Bar already alluded to some of the other best practices that we recommend. Such as removing hard-coded credentials from secrets. Another best practice that we really recommend to our customers is to have a consistent set of controls across their entire estate. Both from on-premises to the cloud. And this really helps to reduce complexity by having a unified and consistent set of security controls. And in fact one of our customers who is one of the world's largest convenience chains. They're using CyberArk to secure the credentials both for their on-premise servers and their AWS EC2 instances. And they're also using us as well to secure the credentials used by applications in the CI CD pipeline. So getting to those consistent controls is another best practice we highly recommend. >> So, consistent identity across your state, whether it's on-prem or in the cloud. And then also you've referenced CI CD a couple of times. So it's it's developer friendly? Are you're designing security in as opposed to a bolt on after the fact? And then you mentioned root accounts access. Is that where privilege access management comes in? Are we going to treat everybody as privileged access? Or how do you deal with machines? You mentioned hard-coded? Like some machines are hard-coded. Like I would imagine a lot of these internet cameras are exposures. How do you deal with all that? I mean, do you just have to cycle through and modernize your fleet of machines? Are there ways in which CyberArk can help sort of anticipate that or defend against that? >> Well, CyberArk can help on, on multiple fronts. Of course you need to secure the root account but that's just only one example of needing to secure a privilege access. And one thing that customers need to understand is that now going forward, any identity can have privilege access at any point in time, because at any point and time, you yourself could have access to a highly sensitive system or have access to highly sensitive data. So with CyberArk we help our customers understand which of their applications and infrastructure have the most sensitive data and then work with them to secure the access to that data whether that access be a human access or machine or programmatic access. >> So what are the customer implications of all this? I mean pre pandemic, you know, this whole zero trust thing with password. Now it's like fundamental premise. You don't trust to verify. What are the customer implications as we enter this new era ransomware through the roof, the adversaries are well funded highly capable. They're living off the land, they're island hopping. They're, doing self forming malware. It's a new world, right? So what are the customer implications? What should they be thinking about? You know, they don't have unlimited budget. So what's the advice? >> Well, eventually at the end of the day, there are all kinds of best practices of how to applies security. I think that both AWS have their own best practices and CyberArk has also our own best practices calling the blueprint which help organization to focus on to crown jewel on the most important stuff. And then going deeper and lower within each and every initiative. And on each and every level, try to investigate what you're trying to protect and what kind of security mechanisms can be applied in order to protect both access and maintaining that no one whether if it's internal or external attacker can gain access to it. >> Yup, I think the other implication for customers and you already alluded to it is really to continue to move forward with their zero trust initiatives. I think that that is a foundational going forward. Now that remote work is kind of the defacto norm and we can no longer rely on the traditional network perimeter. And so in this new environment securing your identities is the new perimeter. So that's an important implication for customers. And then another one that I would mention is that security teams need to work more closely with their dev and dev ops counterparts to bacon security earlier. It really can't be that security is brought in after the fact. Security very much needs to shift left and be included in the very early stages of application development before an application comes to production. >> I mean, I think it's that last point but all good points. The last point was a huge theme at CubeCon this year. That notion of shift left developers, you've mentioned the CI CD pipeline several times. I mean I think that is, you know, especially when you think about machines and the edge and IoT. I used to say all the time, you know that you used to put a moat around the castle, build a wall, protect the queen. Well, the queen has left the castle. But now with the pandemic, we've seen the effects of that. And as I say, the adversaries are seeing huge opportunities. Well-funded super sophisticated. It's like it makes Stuxnet look like a kindergarten. I know that was still >> That's scary. still pretty sophisticated. But I mean, look at what we saw with the government hack and solar winds, you know huge huge. But if we can talk to CSOs about that, they're like, you know, that's, we have to move fast. But they don't have unlimited budget, right? Cybersecurity is their number one initiative in terms of priorities. But then they have all these other things to fund. They have to fund a forced march to digital transformation, machine learning and AI, they're migrating to the cloud. They're driving automation. They're modernizing their application portfolio. So, security is still number one, isn't it? So it's a good business that you're in. >> Yes, and we really want to work with our CSOs so they can get the most investment out of what they're putting into CyberArk and the rest of their strategic security vendors. Because as you mentioned there's a talent shortage. So anything that we can do as vendors to make it easier for them to use our products and get more value from our solutions, is something that's really important. >> And automation is part of the answer but it's not the only answer, right? You got to follow the NIST framework and follow these best practices and keep fighting the fight. Guys. Thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. It was great to have you. I'd love to have you back. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you for having us. >> All right. Our pleasure. All right, this is Dave Vellante for theCUBE. You're watching our coverage of AWS re:Invent 2021. (gentle upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2021 virtual. Brought to you by Red Hat, The Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon 2021 CloudNativeCon Europe. Part of the CNCF and ongoing, could be in there from the beginning, love this community, theCUBE's proud to support and continue to cover it. We're virtual this year again because of the pandemic but it looks like we'll be right around the corner for a physical event, hopefully for the next one, fingers crossed. Got a great guest here from Red Hat. Siamak Sadeghianfar, a Senior Principal Product Manager. Welcome to theCUBE. Thanks for coming in. >> Thank you for having me. >> So, this topic's about GitOps, Pipelines, code. Obviously Infrastructure as Code has been the ethos since I can remember going back to 2008 and the original cloutaroti vision. And we were always talking about that. Now it's mainstream. Now it's DevSecOps. So, it's now, day two operations, shifting left with security. OpenShift is continuing to get, take ground. Congratulations on that. So my first question is you guys announced the general availability of OpenShift Pipelines and GitOps at KubeCon. What are, what's this about? And what's the benefits for the customer. Let's get into the news >> Thanks for, to begin with for the Congress and this, this is definitely a hot topic around the DevSecOps. And the different variations of that year about some versions that during in, in FinTech and other verticals as well. The idea is here really is that CI/CD has been around for a long time, continuous integration and continuous delivery, as one of the core practices of the DevOps movement. DevOps movement is quite widespread, now. You, you see reports of above 90% of organizations are in the process of adoption in their journey. And this is one of the main practices but something that has become quite apparent is that many of these organizations that are investing more and more in Cloud Native apps and adopting Cloud Native ways of building applications the tooling and technology that they use for CI/CD since CI/CD is nothing new is from 10 years old, five years old pre Kubernetes era which is not quite Cloud Native. So there is always a clash of how do I build Cloud Natives application using these technologies that are not really built for Cloud Native space and an OpenShift Pipelines OpenShift GitOps is really an opening in this direction and bring more Cloud Native ways of continuous integration and continuous delivery to customers on OpenShift. >> Got it, so I got to ask you, so a couple of questions on this topic, I really want to dig into. Can you describe the Cloud Native CI/CD process versus traditional CI/CD? >> Sure, so traditional when we think about CI/CD there is usually this monolithic solutions that are running on a virtual machine on a type of infrastructure that they use to deploy applications as well. 'Cause you, you need reliability and you have to be making an assumption about an infrastructure that you're running on. And when you come to Cloud Native infrastructure you have a much more dynamic infrastructure. We have a lot less assumptions. You might be running on a public cloud or on premise infrastructure or different types of public cloud. So these environments are often also containerized. So there are, there's a high chance you're running on a container platform, regardless if it's a public or on premises. And with the whole containers, you, you have different types of disciplines and principals to think in, about your infrastructure. So in the Cloud Native ways of CI/CD, you're running most likely in a container platform. You don't have dedicated infrastructure. You are running mostly on demand. You scale when there is a demand for running CI/CD, for example, rather than dedicated infrastructure to it. And also from the mode of operation from organization perspective, they are more adapted to this decentralized ways of ownership. As a part of the DevOps culture, this comes really with that movement, that more and more development teams are getting ownership of some portion of the delivery of their applications. And it's cognitive CS/CD solutions, they focus on supporting these models that you go away from that central model of control to decentralize and have more ownership, more capabilities within the development teams for delivering application. >> Okay, so I then have to ask you the next question. It's like you, like a resource, you'd say: Hey Siri, what is, what is GitOps? What is GitOps? 'Cause that's the topic that's been getting a lot of traction, everyone's talking about it. I mean we know DevOps. So what is the GitOps model? Can you define that? And is that what a, it that what comes after DevOps? Is it DevOps 2.0, what is the GitOps model? >> That's a very good question. GitOps is nothing really new. It's rather a more descriptive way of DevOps principles. DevOps talks about the cultural changes and mindset and ways of working. And when it comes to the, to the concrete work flow it is quite open for interpretation. So GitOps is one, a specific interpretation of how you, you do continuous integration and continuous delivery, how we implement DevOps. And the concept have been around for a couple of years. But just recently, it's got a lot of traction within the Cloud Native space. >> So how does GitOps fit into Kubernetes then? 'Cause that's going to be the next dot that we want to connect. What is that, what is, how, how. How does GitOps fit into Kubernetes? >> So GitOps is really the, the core principle of GitOps is that you, you, you think about everything in your infrastructure and application in a declarative manner. So everything needs to be declared in, in, in a number of gate repositories and you drive your operations through Git Workflows. Which if you think about it is quite similar to how Kubernetes operates. The, the reason Kubernetes became so popular is because of this declarative way of thinking about your infrastructure. You declare what you expect and Kubernetes actualizes that on, on some sort of infrastructure. So GitOps is, is, is exact same concept, but the, but applied not to the infrastructure itself, but to the operations of that infrastructure, operations of those applications. It becomes a really nice fit together. It's the same mindset really applied in different place. >> It's like Kubernetes is like the linchpin or the enabler for GitOps. Just a whole nother level of, I mean, I think GitOps essentially DevOps 2.0 in my opinion because it takes this whole nother level above that for the developer modern developer because it allows them to do more. So it's been around for a while. We've been talking about this, it's got a new name but GitOps is kind of concept has been around. Why is the increase adoption happening now in your opinion or do you have any data on or any facts or opinion on why it's such an increase in, in conversation and adoption? >> You had the, you had like very accurate point there that Kubernetes has been a great enabler for, for DevOps and later the same applies to GitOps as well because of that, that great fit. It has been, GitOps the concept has been there but implementation of that has been quite difficult before Kubernetes and also for non-containerized environments. Kubernetes is, is a very potent platform for this kind of operation because the the mindset and the ways of working is really native to how Kubernetes thinks. But there is also another driver that has been influential in, in the rise of GitOps in the last year or two. And this is an observation we see at a lot of our customers, that the number of clusters that organizations are deploying, Kubernetes clusters increasing. As their maturity increases they get more comfortable with Cloud Native way of working and transfer the workflows to become Cloud Native, they are, they are having, they move more and more of their infrastructure to Kubernetes clusters. So a new challenge rises with this. And now that I have a larger number of clusters how do I ensure consistency across all these, all these clusters? So before I had to deploy an application to production environment, perhaps, which meant two clusters across two geographical zones. Now I have to deploy to 20 clusters. And these 20 clusters also change over time. So this week is a different 20 clusters then three weeks from now. So this, this dynamic ways of working and the customers maturing in, in dealing with Kubernetes operating communities has increased really the pace of adoption of GitOps because it addresses a lot of those challenges that customers are dealing with in this space. >> Yeah, you bring up a really good challenge there. And I think that's worth calling out, this idea of expansion. And I won't say sprawl because it's not a sprawl of cluster. It's more a state provisioning and standing up clusters. And you said they they're changing because the environment has needs and the workloads might have requirements. This makes total sense in a DevOps kind of GitOps way. So I get that and I see that definitely happening. So this brings up the question, if I'm a customer, what I'm worried about is I don't want to have that Hadoop factor where I build a cluster and it takes too long to manage it, or I can't measure it, or understand the data, or have any observability. So I want to have an ease of provisioning and standing up and I want to have consistency that my apps who are using it, don't have to be, you know mangled with or coded with. So, you know, this combination of ease of deploying, ease of integrating, ease of consuming the clusters becomes a service model. Can you share your thoughts on how that gets solved? >> Yeah, absolutely. So that, that's a great point because as, as this is happening, there is also heterogenesis in this, this type of Kubernetes infrastructure window. Like, they're all Kubernetes but this problem also has multiple facets as customers running on multiple public clouds and, and combination of that with their on-premise Kubernetes clusters. And that is, they may as well be OpenShift across all this, all this infrastructure. But the, the problem that GitOps helps its customers advise that they can have the exact same operational model across all these apps and infrastructure, regardless of what kind of application it is. And regardless of where OpenShift is installed or if you're using that combined with a public cloud managed a Kubernetes stats, is the exact same process because you're relying on, on the Gits Workflows, right? And even beyond that, this standard workflow has the benefit of something that many organizations are already familiar with. So if you think about what GitOps operations mean it is essentially what developers have been always using for developing applications. So this standardizes the operations of both application and infrastructure as solvers. >> Listen to me, I got to ask you as the product manager on the whole pipelining in Kubernetes deployments. In your opinion, share your perspective on, real quick, on Kubernetes, where we're at? Because just the accelerated adoption has been phenomenal. We've seen it mature this year at KubeCon. And certainly when KubeCon North America happens, you're going to see more and more end user participation. You're going to see much more end-user use cases. You mentioned clusters are growing. What's the state of Kubernetes from your perspective, from a developer mindset? >> So Kubernetes, I think it has moved from a place that it was seen as only a, a type of infrastructure for Cloud Native applications because of the capability that it provides to a type of infrastructure for any type of application, any type of workload. I think what we have seen over the last two years is, is a shift to expansion of the use cases. And if, if you are, you talked about head open if you are a data scientist, or if you are an AIML type of developer or any type of workload really, see use cases that are coming to the Kubernetes platform as the targets type of infrastructure. So that's really where we see Kubernetes at right now is the really, the preferred infrastructure for any type of workload. And I believe this trend going to to keep continuing to address any of the challenge that exists that prevents maybe part of the, a particular type of workload to address that within the platform and opens that to add to, to developers. Which means for the developers now, once you learn the platform you are really proficient in a, you have this skills for any type of application or any type of infrastructure because they're all standardized, regardless of what type of application or workloads or technology you're specialized in. They're all going to the exact same platform. So it's very standardized type of skills across organizations, different type of teams that they have. >> Awesome, great, thanks for sharing that insight and definition. You're like a walking dictionary today for our CUBE audience. Thank you for all this good stuff. Appreciate it. Final question for you is, what does it mean for developers that are using Jenkins or other cloud-based CI solutions like GitHub Actions? What, what's the impact to them with all this from a working standpoint? 'Cause obviously you've got to make it workable. >> Right, so it's CI/CD also like it's, it's it's great to see like with DevOps adoption, there are many organizations that already have processes in place. They have, they're already using a CI tool or a CD tool. They might be using Jenkins. A lot of organizations really use, use Jenkins even though it comes with challenges and you might be using public cloud services or cloud-based CI tools, like you have Actions, you have pipelines and so on. So we are very well aware of the existing investment that many organizational teams have made. And we make sure that OpenShift as a platform works really well alongside all these different types of CI and CD technology that exists. We want to make sure that for developers starting on OpenShift, they, they have a really solid Cloud Native foundation for CI/CD. They have of strategies included but replaceable type of strategies. So they, they have a supportive platform that is Cloud Native, that gives them capability that matches the type of Cloud Native workloads that they have on the platform but also integrate well with existing tooling that exists around CI/CD. So that they can match and choose if they want to replace a piece of that with an existing investment that they have done, integrated with the rest of the platform. >> Awesome, well, great to have you on. Having the principal product manager is awesome, to talk about the two new announcements here. OpenShift pipe, Pipelines, and OpenShift GitOps. Final, final question, bumper sticker this for the audience. What's the bottom line with OpenShift Pipelines and GitOps? What's the, what's the bottom line benefit for customers? >> It's a, so OpenShift Pipeline and OpenShift GitOps makes it really simple for customers to create Cloud Native Pipelines and GitOps model for delivering application. And also making cluster changes across a large range of clusters that they have, make it really simple to grow from that point to many, many clusters and still manage the complexity of this complex infrastructure that it will be growing into. >> All right, Siamak Sadeghianfar, Senior Principal Product Manager at Red Hat. Here for the KubeCon + CloudNativeCon, Europe. CUBE conversation, thanks for coming on, appreciate it. >> Thanks John, thanks for having me. Okay, CUBE coverage continues. I'm John Farrow with theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)