>>Hey everyone, welcome back. It's the Cube live in Las Vegas. We've been here since Monday covering the event wall to coverage on the cube at AWS Reinvent 22, Lisa Martin here with Dave Ante. Dave, we're hearing consistently north of 50,000 people here. I'm hearing close to 300,000 online. People are back. They are ready to hear from AWS and its ecosystem. Yeah, >>I think 55 is the number I'm hearing. I've been using 50 for 2019, but somebody the other day told me, no, no, it was way more than that. Right, right. Well this feels bigger in >>2019. It does feel bigger. It does feel bigger. And we've had such great conversations as you know, because you've been watching the Cube since Monday night. We're pleased to welcome from Sumo Logic. Lynn Doherty, the president of Worldwide Field Operations. Lynn, welcome to the program. >>Thank you for having me. I'm glad to be here. Talk >>To us about what's going on at Sumo Logic. We cover them. We've been following them for a long time, but what's what's new? >>We have a lot going on at Sumo Logic. What we do is provide solutions for both observability and security. And if you think about the challenges that our customers are facing today, everybody as they're doing this digital transformation is in a situation where the data and the digital exhausts that they have is growing faster than their budgets and especially in what looks like potentially uncertain economic times. And so what we do is enable them to bring that together on a platform so that they can solve both of those problems in a really cost effective way. >>What are some of the things that you're hearing from customers in the field where it relates to Sumo logic and aws? What are they asking for? >>They continue to ask for security and, and I think as everybody goes on that journey of digital transformation and, and I think what's going on now is that there are people who are kind of in wave two of that digital transformation, but security continues to be top of mind. And again, as as our customers are moving into potentially uncertain economic times and they're saying, Hey, I've gotta shore up and, and maybe do smarter things with my budget, cybersecurity is one piece of that that is not falling off the table. That their requirements around security, around audits, around compliance don't go away regardless of what else happens. >>How do you fit in the cloud ecosystem generally? AWS specifically? I think AWS is generally perceived as a more friendly environment for the ecosystem partners. We saw CrowdStrike yesterday, you know, stock got crushed. They had a great quarter, but not as great as they thought it could be. Yeah. And one, some of the analysts were saying, well, it could be Microsoft competition at the low end of the market. Okay. AWS is like the ecosystem partners are really strong in security, lot of places to add value. Where does Sumo Logic >>Fit? Yeah, we are all in with aws. So AWS is our platform of choice. It's the platform that we're built on. It's the only platform that we use. And so we work incredibly closely with aws. In fact, last year we were the first ever AWS ISV partner of the year for as Sumo Logic, which we're not as big as some of the other players, but it just is a testament to the partnership that we have with aws. >>When you're out in the field talking with customers, we talked about some of the challenges there, but where are your customer conversations? You talked about security and cyber as is not falling off the table. In fact, it's, it's rising up the stock, it's a board level conversation. So where are the customer conversations that you're having? Are they, are they at the developer level? Are they higher? Are they at the C-suite? What does that look like? >>Yeah, it's, it's actually at both the developer and the C-suite. And so there's really two motions. The first is around developers and practitioners and people that run security operation centers. And they need tools that are easy to use that integrate in their environment. And so we absolutely work with them as a starting point because if, if they aren't happy with the tools that they have, you know, the customer can't go on that digital transformation, can't have effective application usage. But we also need to talk to C-Suite and that to CIO or a CISO who's really thinking often more broadly about how do we do things as a platform and how do we consolidate some of our tools to rationalize what we're using and really make the most of the budget that we have. And so we come at it from both angles. We call it selling above the line and below the line because both of those are really important people for us to work with. >>Above the line being sort of the business executives, >>Business executives and C-suite executives. And then, but below the line are the actual people who are using the product and using a day to day interacting with the tools. >>So how are those above the line and below the line conversations, you know, different? What, what are the, what are the above the line conversations? What are the sort of keywords that, you know, that resonate? Let's start there. >>Yeah, above the line, there's a lot that's around how do we make the most of the investments that we're making. And so there are no shortage of tools, right? You can look around this AWS floor and see that there are no shortage of tools and software products out there. And so above the line it's how do we make use of the budget that we have and get the most out of the investments we've made and do that in a really smart way. Often thinking about platforms and consolidating tools and, and using the tools and getting full value of what they have below the line. I think it's really how do they have really strong ease of use? How do they get the fastest time to value? Because time to value is really important when you're a practitioner, when you're developing an application, when you're migrating and modernizing an application, having tools that are easy to use and not just give you data but give you insights. And so that's what a conversation with a practitioner for us is, is taking data and turning it into insights that they can use. >>You know, and it seems like we never get rid of stuff in it, but there's a big conversation now when you talk to practitioners, okay, well you got some budget pressures, your sales cycles are elongating. What are you doing about, a lot of 'em are saying, well, we're consolidating and nowhere is that more needed probably than insecurity. So how, how are you seeing that play out in the market? Are you able to take advantage of that as Sumo? >>I think there's the old joke that says there is no ciso. Whoever says, if I just had one more tool, I'd be secure. >>And >>Nobody ever says that it's not one more tool. It's having effective tools and having tools that integrate. And so when I think of Sumo Logic in that space, it's number one, we really integrate with so many different tools out there that give, again, not just security information, but security insights. And so that becomes a really important part of the conversation. What, when you talk about tool consolidation, that's absolutely, I think something that has been a journey that a lot of our customers have been on and probably will be on for the foreseeable future. And so that's a place that we can really help because we have a platform that you can leverage our tool on the DevOps side and on the security side. And that's a conversation that we have a lot with our customers. Are >>You helping bridge those two, the security folks, the dev folks? Cause we talk about Shift left and CISO being involved now. Is Sumo Logic helping from a cultural perspective to bridge those two? >>Yeah, well I think it's a really good point that you make. It's, there's part of it that's a technology challenge and then there's part of it that's a cultural challenge and an organization silo challenge that happens. And so it is something that we try to bring our customers together and often start in one area of the business and help move into other areas and bring them together. It, it also comes down to that data growing faster than budgets and customers can no longer afford to keep multiple copies of the same data, the same metrics, and all of that digital exhaust that comes as they move to the cloud and modernize their applications. And so we bring that together and help them get the most use out of it. >>There are a lot of, we've been talking all week in the cube about sort of adjacencies to security. We've talking about data protections now becoming an adjacency. You know, you talk about resilience within an organization, everybody was sort of caught off guard, obviously with the pandemic, not as resilient as they could have been. So it seems like the scope of security is really expanding. You know, they always say it's, it's a team sport, okay, it's a pro mine, but it's true. Right? Whereas it used to be that guy's problem. Yeah. What are you seeing in terms of that evolution? >>Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I think the pandemics force some of that faster than was happening, but it's absolutely something that is going on that cybersecurity is now built in from the ground up and I've been in cyber security for years and it's moved from an afterthought or something that comes after the fact, Hey, let's build the application and then we'll worry about security to, it needs to be a secure application from the ground up. And so that is bringing together that dev and SEC ops a lot because it needs to be built in, the security piece needs to be built in from the ground up on the development side. >>Absolutely. The, the threat landscape has changed so much in the last couple of years. Has the fraudsters, bad actors, whatever you wanna call 'em, are getting far more sophisticated. Yeah. So security can't be an afterthought. Can't be a built on. Yeah, it's gotta be integrated, built in from the ground up for organizations to be able to be, as they've said, resilient. We're hearing a lot about resiliency and the importance of it. For any business. >>For any business, it's important for every business. And if you think about how we interact with companies now, our view of a bank isn't the branch, it's the app, our view of office, it's this, right? It's, it's on the phone, it's on digital devices, it's on a website. And so that is your interaction, that is your experience. And so that plays into, is it up, is it running, is it responsive? That application performance piece, but also the security piece of is it secure? Is my data protected? You know, do I have any vulnerability? >>Yeah, you must have, being in field operations, a favorite customer story that you really think defines the value proposition beautifully of Sumo Logic. What story is that? >>Wow, that's a good question. I have a lot of favorite stories. You know, we have customers, for example, gaming customers that maybe aren't able to predict what their usage looks like. And that's something that we really help our customers with is the peaks and valleys. And so we have gaming customers or retail customers that we're able to take their data sources and they may be at one level and go to 10 x in a day without any notice. And we're able to handle that for them. And I think that's something that I'm really proud of is that we don't make that the customer's problem. They're, they're peaks and valleys, they're spikes that may happen seasonally in retail. It's Black Friday sales that are coming up. It's a new game that gets released. It's a new music piece that gets released and they are going to see that, but they don't have to worry about that because of us. And so that really makes me proud that we handle that and take that problem off of their shoulders. I >>See Pokemon on the website, that's a hugely popular >>Game, Pokemon now. Yes. >>Last question for you, we've got about 30 seconds left. If you had a billboard to put up in Denver where you live about Sumo Logic and its impact like an elevator pitch or a phrase that you think really summarizes the impact, what would it >>Say? Yeah, well it's a really good question. I've got it on my shirt. I dunno, it's not for the G-rated, but we fix things faster. Fix shit faster. And so for us that's really, ultimately, it's not just about having information, it's not just about having the data, it's about being able to resolve your problems quickly. And whether that's an application or a security issue, we've gotta be able to fix it faster for our customers and that's what we enable them to do. >>Fix bleep faster. Lynn, it's been a pleasure having you on the program. Thank you so much. Thank you for joining us. Awesome step at Sumo Logic. For our guest and for Dave Ante. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching The Cube Live from Las Vegas, the leader in live enterprise and emerging tech coverage.

[Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] you you you you [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] ladies and gentlemen please take your seats good morning ladies and gentlemen this is your captain speaking we will soon be taking off on our way to altitude please keep your seatbelts fastened and remain in your seats we will be experiencing turbulence until we are above the clouds ladies and gentlemen we are now cruising at altitude sit back and enjoy the ride [Music] altitude is a community of thought leaders and pioneers cloud architects and enlightened network engineers who have individually and are now collectively leading their own IT teams and the industry on a path to lift cloud networking above the clouds empowering Enterprise IT to architect design and control their own cloud network regardless of the turbulent clouds beneath them it's time to gain altitude ladies and gentlemen Steve Mulaney president and CEO of aviatrix the leader of multi cloud networking [Music] [Applause] all right good morning everybody here in Santa Clara as well as to the what millions of people watching the livestream worldwide welcome to altitude 2020 alright so we've got a fantastic event today I'm really excited about the speakers that we have today and the experts that we have and really excited to get started so one of the things I wanted to just share was this is not a one-time event it's not a one-time thing that we're gonna do sorry for the aviation analogy but you know sherry way aviatrix means female pilot so everything we do as an aviation theme this is a take-off for a movement this isn't an event this is a takeoff of a movement a multi-cloud networking movement and community that we're inviting all of you to become part of and-and-and why we're doing that is we want to enable enterprises to rise above the clouds so to speak and build their network architecture regardless of which public cloud they're using whether it's one or more of these public clouds so the good news for today there's lots of good news but this is one good news is we don't have any PowerPoint presentations no marketing speak we know that marketing people have their own language we're not using any of that in those sales pitches right so instead what are we doing we're going to have expert panels we've got some owners chart of Gartner here we've got 10 different network architects cloud architects real practitioners they're going to share their best practices and there are real-world experiences on their journey to the multi cloud so before we start and everybody know what today is in the US it's Super Tuesday I'm not gonna get political but Super Tuesday there was a bigger Super Tuesday that happened 18 months ago and maybe eight six employees know what I'm talking about 18 months ago on a Tuesday every Enterprise said I'm gonna go to the cloud and so what that was was the Cambrian explosion for cloud for the price so Franco Bree you know what a Cambrian explosion is he had to look it up on Google 500 million years ago what happened there was an explosion of life where it went from very simple single-cell organisms to very complex multi-celled organisms guess what happened 18 months ago on a Tuesday I don't really know why but every enterprise like I said all woke up that day and said now I'm really gonna go to cloud and that Cambrian explosion of cloud went meant that I'm moving from very simple single cloud single use case simple environment to a very complex multi cloud complex use case environment and what we're here today is we're gonna go and dress that and how do you handle those those those complexities and when you look at what's happening with customers right now this is a business transformation right people like to talk about transitions this is a transformation and it's actually not just the technology transformation it's a business transformation it started from the CEO and the boards of enterprise customers where they said I have an existential threat to the survival of my company if you look at every industry who they're worried about is not the other 30 year old enterprise what they're worried about is the three year old enterprise that's leveraging cloud that's leveraging AI and that's where they fear that they're going to actually get wiped out right and so because of this existential threat this is CEO lead this is board led this is not technology led it is mandated in the organization's we are going to digitally transform our enterprise because of this existential threat and the movement to cloud is going to enable us to go do that and so IT is now put back in charge if you think back just a few years ago in cloud it was led by DevOps it was led by the applications and it was like I said before their Cambrian explosion is very simple now with this Cambrian explosion and enterprises getting very serious and mission-critical they care about visibility they care about control that about compliance conformance everything governance IT is in charge and and and that's why we're here today to discuss that so what we're going to do today is much of things but we're gonna validate this journey with customers did they see the same thing we're going to validate the requirements for multi-cloud because honestly I've never met an enterprise that is not going to be multi-cloud many are one cloud today but they all say I need to architect my network for multiple clouds because that's just what the network is there to support the applications and the applications will run and whatever cloud it runs best in and you have to be prepared for that the second thing is is is architecture again with the IT in charge you architecture matters whether it's your career whether it's how you build your house it doesn't matter horrible architecture your life is horrible forever good architecture your life is pretty good so we're going to talk about architecture and how the most fundamental and critical part of that architecture and that basic infrastructure is the network if you don't get that right nothing works right way more important and compute way more important than storm dense storage network is the foundational element of your infrastructure then we're going to talk about day two operations what does that mean well day 1 is one day of your life who you wire things up they do and beyond I tell everyone in networking and IT it's every day of your life and if you don't get that right your life is bad forever and so things like operations visibility security things like that how do I get my operations team to be able to handle this in an automated way because it's not just about configuring it in the cloud it's actually about how do i operationalize it and that's a huge benefit that we bring as aviatrix and then the last thing we're going to talk and it's the last panel we have I always say you can't forget about the humans right so all this technology all these things that we're doing it's always enabled by the humans at the end of the day if the humans fight it it won't get deployed and we have a massive skills gap in cloud and we also have a massive skill shortage you have everyone in the world trying to hire cloud network architects right there's just not enough of them going around so at aviatrix we as leaders ooh we're gonna help address that issue and try to create more people we created a program and we call the ACE program again an aviation theme it stands for aviatrix certified engineer very similar to what Cisco did with CCI es what Cisco taught you about IP networking a little bit of Cisco we're doing the same thing we're gonna teach network architects about multi-cloud networking and architecture and yeah you'll get a little bit of aviatrix training in there but this is the missing element for people's careers and also within their organization so we're gonna we're gonna go talk about that so great great event great show when to try to keep it moving I'd next want to introduce my my host he's the best in the business you guys have probably seen him multiple million times he's the co CEO and co-founder of joob John Ferrier [Applause] okay awesome great great speech they're awesome I totally agree with everything you said about the explosion happening and I'm excited here at the heart of Silicon Valley to have this event it's a special digital event with the cube and aviatrix where we live streaming to millions of people as you said maybe not a million maybe not really take this program to the world this is a little special for me because multi-cloud is the hottest wave and cloud and cloud native networking is fast becoming the key engine of the innovation so we got an hour and a half of action-packed programming we have a customer panel to customer panels before that Gartner is going to come out and talk about the industry we have a global system integrators they talk about how they're advising and building these networks and cloud native networking and then finally the Aces the aviatrix certified engineer is gonna talk more about their certifications and the expertise needed so let's jump right in and let's ask some own rashard to come on stage from Gartner we'll kick it all up [Applause] [Music] okay so kicking things off certain started gardener the industry experts on cloud really kind of more to your background talk about your background before you got the gardener yeah before because gardener was a chief network architect of a fortune five companies with thousands of sites over the world and I've been doing everything and IT from a C programmer the ninety-two a security architect to a network engineer to finally becoming a network analyst so you rode the wave now you're covering in the marketplace with hybrid cloud and now moving quickly to multi cloud is really was talking about cloud natives been discussed but the networking piece is super important how do you see that evolving well the way we see Enterprise adapt in cloud first thing you do about networking the initial phases they either go in a very ad hoc way is usually led by non non IT like a shadow IT or application people are sometime a DevOps team and it's it just goes as it's completely unplanned decreed VP sees left and right as with different account and they create mesh to manage them and they have direct connect or Express route to any of them so that's what that's a first approach and on the other side again it within our first approach you see what I call the lift and shift way we see like Enterprise IT trying to basically replicate what they have in a data center in the cloud so they spend a lot of time planning doing Direct Connect putting Cisco routers and f5 and Citrix and any checkpoint Palo Alto divides that the atoms that are sent removing that to that cloud they ask you the aha moments gonna come up a lot of our panels is where people realize that it's a multi cloud world I mean they either inherit clouds certainly they're using public cloud and on-premises is now more relevant than ever when's that aha moment that you're seeing where people go well I got to get my act together and get on this well the first but even before multi-cloud so these two approach the first one like the ad hoc way doesn't scale at some point idea has to save them because they don't think about the - they don't think about operations we have a bunch of VPC and multiple clouds the other way that if you do the left and shift week they cannot take any advantages of the cloud they lose elasticity auto-scaling pay by the drink these feature of agility features so they both realize okay neither of these words are good so I have to optimize that so I have to have a mix of what I call the cloud native services within each cloud so they start adapting like other AWS constructor is your construct or Google construct and that's what I call the optimal phase but even that they realize after that they are very different all these approaches different the cloud are different identities is completely difficult to manage across clouds I mean for example AWS as accounts there's subscription and in as ER and GCP their projects it's a real mess so they realize well I can't really like concentrate used the cloud the cloud product and every cloud that doesn't work so I have I'm doing multi cloud I like to abstract all of that still wanna manage the cloud from an epi xx view I don't necessarily want to bring my incumbent data center products but I have to do that in a more API driven cloud they're not they're not scaling piece and you were mentioning that's because there's too many different clouds yes that's the piece there so what are they doing whether they read they building different development teams as its software what's the solution well this the solution is to start architecting the cloud that's the third phase I call that the multi cloud architect phase where they have to think about abstraction that works across cloud fact even across one cloud it might not scale as well if you start having like 10,000 security group in AWS that doesn't scale you have to manage that if you have multiple VPC it doesn't scale you need a third-party identity provider so it barely scales within one cloud if you go multiple cloud it gets worse and worse see way in here what's your thoughts I thought we said this wasn't gonna be a sales pitch for aviatrix you just said exactly what we do so anyway up just a joke what do you see in terms of where people are in that multi cloud like a lot of people you know everyone I talked to started in one cloud right but then they look and they say okay but I'm now gonna move to adjourn I'm gonna move do you see a similar thing well yes they are moving but they're not there's not a lot of application that use a tree cloud at once they move one app in Azure one app in individuals one get app in Google that's what we see so far okay yeah I mean one of the mistakes that people think is they think multi-cloud no one is ever gonna go multi-cloud for arbitrage they're not gonna go and say well today I might go into Azure because I got a better rate of my instance that's never do you agree with that's never gonna happen what I've seen with enterprise is I'm gonna put the work load and the app the app decides where it runs best that may be a sure maybe Google and for different reasons and they're gonna stick there and they're not gonna move let me ask you infrastructure has to be able to support from a networking King be able to do that do you agree with that yes I agree and one thing is also very important is connecting to that cloud is kind of the easiest thing so though while I run network part of the cloud connectivity to the cloud is kind of simple you know I agree IPSec VPN and I reckon Express route that's a simple part what's difficult and even a provisioning part is easy you can use terraform and create v pieces and v nets across which we cloud providers right what's difficult is the day-to-day operations so it's what to find a to operations what is that what does that actually mean it's just the day-to-day operations after you know the natural let's add an app that's not a server let's troubleshoot a problem so what ending so your life if something changes now what do you do so what's the big concerns I want to just get back to this cloud native networking because everyone kind of knows with cloud native apps are that's the hot trend what is cloud native networking how do you how do you guys define that because that seems to be the oddest part of the multi cloud wave that's coming as cloud native networking well there's no you know official gardener definition but I can create one on another spot is do it I just want to leverage the cloud construct and a cloud epi I don't want to have to install like like for example the first version was let's put a virtual router that doesn't understand and then the cloud environment right if I have if I have to install a virtual machine it has to be cloud aware it has to understand the security group if it's a router it has to be programmable to the cloud API and and understand the cloud environment you know one things I hear a lot from either see Saussure CIOs or CXOs in general is this idea of I'm definitely on going API so it's been an API economy so API is key on that point but then they say okay I need to essentially have the right relationship with my suppliers aka clouds you call it above the clouds so the question is what do i do from an architecture standpoint do I just hire more developers and have different teams because you mentioned that's a scale point how do you solve this this problem of okay I got AWS I got GCP or Azure or whatever do I just have different teams or just expose API guys where is that optimization where's the focus well I think what you need from an android point of view is a way a control plane across the three clouds and be able to use the api of that cloud to build networks but also to troubleshoot them and do they to operation so you need a view across a three cloud that takes care of routing connectivity that's you know that's the aviatrix plug of view right there so so how do you see so again your Gartner you you you you see the industry you've been a network architect how do you see this this plan out what are the what are the legacy incumbent client-server on-prem networking people gonna do well these versus people like aviatrix well how do you see that playing out well obviously all the incumbent like Arista cisco juniper NSX right they want to basically do the lift and chip are they want to bring and you know VM I want to bring in a section that cloud they call that NSX everywhere and cisco wants bring you star in the cloud they call that each guy anywhere right so everyone what and and then there's cloud vision for my red star and Khan trailers in a cloud so they just want to bring the management plain in the cloud but it's still based most of them it's still based on putting a VM them in controlling them right you you extend your management console to the cloud that's not really cloud native right cloud native you almost have to build it from scratch we like to call that cloud naive well not so close one letter yeah so that was a big culture to reinvent take the tea out of cloud native it's cloud naive that went super viral you guys got t-shirts now I know you love yeah but yeah but that really ultimately is kind of a double-edged sword you got to be you can be naive on the on the architecture side and rolling up but also suppliers are can be naive so how would you define who's naive and who's not well in fact they're evolving as well so for example in Cisco you it's a little bit more native than other ones because they're really scr in the cloud you can't you you really like configure API so the cloud and NSX is going that way and so is Arista but they're incumbent they have their own tools is difficult for them they're moving slowly so it's much easier to start from scratch Avenue like and you know a network happiness started a few years ago there's only really two aviatrix was the first one they've been there for at least three or four years and there's other ones like Al Kyra for example that just started now that doing more connectivity but they want to create an overlay network across the cloud and start doing policies and trying abstracting all the clouds within one platform so I gotta ask you I interviewed an executive at VMware Sanjay Pune and he said to me at RSA last week I was only be two networking vendors left Cisco and VMware what's your respect what's your response to that obviously I mean when you have these waves as new brands that emerge like aviation others though I think there'll be a lot of startups coming out of the woodwork how do you respond to that comment well there's still a data center there's still like a lot of action on campus and there's the one but from the cloud provisioning and clown networking in general I mean they're behind I think you know in fact you don't even need them to start to it you can if you're small enough you can just keep if you're in a table us you can use it with us construct they have to insert themselves I mean they're running behind they're all certainly incumbents I love the term Andy Jesse's that Amazon Web Services uses old guard new guard to talk about the industry what does the new guard have to do the new and new brands that emerge in is it be more DevOps oriented neck net sec Ops is that net ops is the programmability these are some of the key discussions we've been having what's your view on how you see this ability their most important part is they have to make the network's simple for the dev teams and from you cannot have that you cannot make a phone call and get it V line in two weeks anymore so if you move to that cloud you have to make the cloud construct as simple enough so that for example a dev team could say okay I'm going to create this V PC but this V PC automatically being your associate your account you cannot go out on the internet you have to go to the transit VPC so there's a lot of action in terms of the I am part and you have to put the control around them too so to make it as simple as possible you guys both I mean you're the COC aviatrix but also you guys a lot of experience going back to networking going back to I call the OSI days which for us old folks know what that means but you guys know this means I want to ask you the question as you look at the future of networking here a couple of objections oh the cloud guys they got networking we're all set with them how do you respond to the fact that networking is changing and the cloud guys have their own networking what some of the pain points that's going on premises and these enterprises so are they good with the clouds what needs what are the key things that's going on in networking that makes it more than just the cloud networking what's your take on well as I said earlier that once you you could easily provision in the cloud you can easily connect to the cloud is when you start troubleshooting application in the cloud and try to scale so this that's what the problem occurs see what you're taking on it and you'll hear from the from the customers that that we have on stage and I think what happens is all the cloud the clouds by definition designed to the 80/20 rule which means they'll design 80% of the basic functionality and they'll lead to 20% extra functionality that of course every Enterprise needs they'll leave that to ISVs like aviatrix because why because they have to make money they have a service and they can't have huge instances for functionality that not everybody needs so they have to design to the common and that's they all do it right they have to and then the extra the problem is that can be an explosion that I talked about with enterprises that's holy that's what they need that they're the ones who need that extra 20% so that's that's what I see is is there's always going to be that extra functionality that in an automated and simple way that you talked about but yet powerful with up with the visible in control that they expect of on prep that that's that kind of combination that yin and the yang that people like us are providing some I want to ask you were gonna ask some of the cloud architect customer panels it's the same question this pioneers doing some work here and there's also the laggers who come in behind the early adopters what's gonna be the tipping point what are some of those conversations that the cloud architects are having out there or what's the signs that they need to be on this multi cloud or cloud native networking trend what are some of the signals that are going on their environment what are some of the thresholds or things that are going on that there can pay attention to well one once they have application and multiple cloud and they have they get wake up at 2:00 in the morning to troubleshoot them they don't know it's important so I think that's the that's where the robbery will hit the road but as I said it's easier to prove it it's okay it's a TBS it's easy use a transit gateway put a few V PCs and you're done and you create some presents like equinox and do Direct Connect and Express route with Azure that looks simple as the operations that's when they'll realize okay now I need to understand our car networking works I also need a tool that give me visibility and control not but I'm telling you that I need to understand a basic underneath it as well what are some of the day in the life scenarios that you envision happening with multi cloud because you think about what's happening it kind of has that same vibe of interoperability choice multi vendor because you have multi clouds essentially multi vendor these are kind of old paradigms that we've lived through the client-server an internet working wave what are some of those scenarios of success and that might be possible it would be possible with multi cloud and cloud native networking well I think once you have good enough visibility to satisfy your customers you know you not only like to keep the service running an application running but to be able to provision fast enough I think that's what you want to achieve small final question advice for folks watching on the live stream if they're sitting there as a cloud architect or a CXO what's your advice to them right now in this because honestly public cloud check hybrid cloud they're working on that that kids on premise is done now multi class right behind it what's your advice the first thing they should do is really try to understand cloud networking for each of their cloud providers and then understand the limitation and is what there's cloud service provider offers enough or you need to look to a third party but you don't look at a third party to start with especially an incumbent one so it's tempting to say I have a bunch of f5 experts nothing against f5 I'm going to bring my five in a cloud when you can use a needle be that automatically understand is ease and auto scaling and so on and you understand that's much simpler but sometimes you need you have five because you have requirements you have like AI rules and that kind of stuff that you use for years you cannot do it's okay I have requirement and that met I'm going to use legacy stuff and then you have to start taking okay what about visibility control about the three cloud but before you do that you have to understand the limitation of the existing cloud providers so first try to be as native as possible until things don't work after that you can start taking multi-cloud great insight somewhat thank you for coming summit in charge with Gardner thanks for sharing thank you appreciate it thanks [Applause] informatica is known as the leading enterprise cloud data management company we are known for being the top in our industry in at least five different products over the last few years especially we've been transforming into a cloud model which allows us to work better with the trends of our customers in order to see agile and effective in a business you need to make sure that your products and your offerings are just as relevant in all these different clouds than what you're used to and what you're comfortable with one of the most difficult challenges we've always had is that because we're a data company we're talking about data that a customer owns some of that data may be in the cloud some of that data may be on Prem some of that data may be actually in their data center in another region or even another country and having that data connect back to our systems that are located in the cloud has always been a challenge when we first started our engagement myth aviatrix we only had one plan that was Amazon it wasn't till later that a jerk came up and all of a sudden we found hey the solution we already had in place for her aviatrix already working in Amazon and now works in Missouri as well before we knew what GCP came up but it really wasn't a big deal for us because we already had the same solution in Amazon and integer now just working in GCP by having a multi cloud approach we have access to all three of them but more commonly it's not just one it's actually integrations between multiple we have some data and ensure that we want to integrate with Amazon we have some data in GCP that we want to bring over to a data Lake measure one of the nice things about aviatrix is that it gives a very simple interface that my staff can understand and use and manage literally hundreds of VPNs around the world and while talking to and working with our customers who are literally around the world now that we've been using aviatrix for a couple years we're actually finding that even problems that we didn't realize we had were actually solved even before we came across the problem and it just worked cloud companies as a whole are based on reputation we need to be able to protect our reputation and part of that reputation is being able to protect our customers and being able to protect more importantly our customers data aviatrix has been helpful for us in that we only have one system that can manage this whole huge system in a simple easy direct model aviatrix is directly responsible for helping us secure and manage our customers not only across the world but across multiple clouds users don't have to be VPN or networking experts in order to be able to use the system all the members on my team can manage it all the members regardless of their experience can do different levels of it one of the unexpected two advantages of aviatrix is that I don't have to sell it to my management the fact that we're not in the news at three o'clock in the morning or that we don't have to get calls in the middle of the night no news is good news especially in networking things that used to take weeks to build or done in hours I think the most important thing about a matrix is it provides me consistency aviatrix gives me a consistent model that I can use across multiple regions multiple clouds multiple customers okay welcome back to altitude 2020 for the folks on the livestream I'm John for Steve Mulaney with CEO of aviatrix for our first of two customer panels on cloud with cloud network architects we got Bobby Willoughby they gone Luis Castillo of National Instruments David should Nick with fact set guys welcome to the stage for this digital event come on up [Applause] [Music] hey good to see you thank you okay okay customer pal this is my favorite part we get to hear the real scoop against a gardener given this the industry overview certainly multi clouds very relevant and cloud native networking is the hot trend with a live stream out there and the digital event so guys let's get into it the journey is you guys are pioneering this journey of multi cloud and cloud native networking and the soon gonna be a lot more coming so I want to get into the journey what's it been like is it real you got a lot of scar tissue and what are some of the learnings yeah absolutely so multi cloud is whether or not we we accepted as a network engineers is a reality like Steve said about two years ago companies really decided to to just to just bite the bullet and and and move there whether or not whether or not we we accept that fact we need to now create a consistent architecture across across multiple clouds and that that is challenging without orchestration layers as you start managing different different tool sets and different languages across different clouds so that's it's really important that to start thinking about that guys on the other panelists here there's different phases of this journey some come at it from a networking perspective some come in from a problem troubleshooting what's what's your experiences yeah so from a networking perspective it's been incredibly exciting it's kind of a once-in-a-generation --all opportunity to look at how you're building out your network you can start to embrace things like infrastructure as code that maybe your peers on the systems teams have been doing for years but it just never really worked on bram so it's really it's really exciting to look at all the opportunities that we have and then all the interesting challenges that come up that you that you get to tackle an effect said you guys are mostly AWS right yep right now though we're we are looking at multiple clouds we have production workloads running in multiple clouds today but a lot of the initial work has been with Amazon and you've seen it from a networking perspective that's where you guys are coming at it from yep yeah we evolved more from a customer requirement perspective started out primarily as AWS but as the customer needed more resources to measure like HPC you know as your ad things like that even recently Google at Google Analytics our journey has evolved into more of a multi cloud environment Steve weigh in on the architecture because this has been the big conversation I want you to lead this second yeah so I mean I think you guys agree the journey you know it seems like the journey started a couple years ago got real serious the need for multi cloud whether you're there today of course it's gonna be there in the future so that's really important I think the next thing is just architecture I'd love to hear what you had some comments about architecture matters it all starts I mean every Enterprise I talk to maybe talk about architecture and the importance of architecture maybe Bobby it's a particular perspective we sorted a journey five years ago Wow okay and we're just now starting our fourth evolution of our network architect and we'll call it networking security net sec yep versus Justice Network and that fourth generation architectures be based primarily upon Palo Alto Networks an aviatrix I have a trick to in the orchestration piece of it but that journey came because of the need for simplicity ok the need for a multi cloud orchestration without us having to go and do reprogramming efforts across every cloud as it comes along right I guess the other question I also had around architectures also Louis maybe just talk about I know we've talked a little bit about you know scripting right and some of your thoughts on that yeah absolutely so so for us we started we started creating the network constructs with cloud formation and we've we've stuck with that for for the most part what's interesting about that is today on premise we have a lot of a lot of automation around around around how we provision networks but cloud formation has become a little bit like the new manual for us so we're now having issues with having the to automate that component and making it consistent with our on premise architecture making it consistent with Azure architecture and Google cloud so it's really interesting to see to see companies now bring that layer of abstraction that sty and brought to the do the web side now it's going up into into the into the cloud networking architecture so on the fourth generation of you mentioned you're in the fourth gen architecture what do you guys what have you learned is there any lessons scar tissue what to avoid what worked what was the middle it was a path that's probably the biggest lesson there is that when you think you finally figured it out you have it right Amazon will change something as you change something you know transit gateways a game changer so in listening to the business requirements is probably the biggest thing we need to do up front but I think from a simplicity perspective we like I said we don't want to do things four times we want to do things one time we won't be able to write to an API which aviatrix has and have them do the orchestration for us so that we don't have to do it four times how important is architecture in the progression is it you guys get thrown in the deep end to solve these problems or you guys zooming out and looking at it it's a I mean how are you guys looking at the architecture I mean you can't get off the ground if you don't have the network there so all of those now we've gone through similar evolutions we're on our fourth or fifth evolution I think about what we started off with Amazon without a direct connect gateway about a trans a gateway without a lot of the things that are available today kind of the 80/20 that Steve was talking about just because it wasn't there doesn't mean we didn't need it so we needed to figure out a way to do it we couldn't say oh you need to come back to the network team in a year and maybe Amazon will have a solution for it right you need to do it now and it evolved later and maybe optimized for change the way you're doing things in the future but don't sit around and wait you can't I'd love to have you guys each individually answer this question for the live stream because it comes up a lot a lot of cloud architects out in the community what should they be thinking about the folks that are coming into this proactively and/or realizing the business benefits are there what advice would you guys give them an architecture what should be they be thinking about and what are some guiding principles you could share so I would start with looking at an architecture model that that can that can spread and and give consistency they're different to different cloud vendors that you will absolutely have to support cloud vendors tend to want to pull you into using their native toolset and that's good if only it was realistic to talk about only one cloud but because it doesn't it's it's it's super important to talk about and have a conversation with the business and with your technology teams about a consistent model so that's David yeah talking as we prepare about a day to operations so how do I design how do I do my day one work so that I'm not you know spending eighty percent of my time troubleshooting or managing my network because I'm doing that then I'm missing out on ways that I can make improvements or embrace new technologies so it's really important early on to figure out how do I make this as low maintenance as possible so that I can focus on the things that the team really should be focusing on Bobby your advice to the architect I don't know what else I can do that simplicity of operations is key right all right so the holistic view of j2 operation you mentioned let's could jump in day one is you're you're you're getting stuff set up day two is your life after all right this is kind of what you're getting at David so what does that look like what are you envisioning as you look at that 20 miles their outpost multi-cloud world what are some of the things then you want in a day to operations yeah infrastructure is code is really important to us so how do we how do we design it so that we can fit start making network changes and fitting them into like a release pipeline and start looking at it like that rather than somebody logging into a router seoi and troubleshooting things on in an ad hoc nature so moving more towards a DevOps model there's anything on that day - yeah I would love to add something so in terms of date to operations you can you can either sort of ignore the day - operations for a little while where you get well well you get your feet wet or you can start approaching it from the beginning the fact is that the the cloud native tools don't have a lot of maturity in that space and when you run into an issue you're gonna end up having a bad day going through millions and millions of logs just to try to understand what's going on so that's something that that the industry just now is beginning to to realize it's it's such as such a big gap I think that's key because for us we're moving to more of an event-driven operations in the past monitoring got the job done it's impossible to modern monitor something that it's nothing there when the event happens all right so the event-driven application and then detection is important yeah I think Gardner was all about the cloud native wave coming into networking that's gonna be a serious thing I want to get you guys perspectives I know you have different views of how you come into the journey and how you're executing and I always say the beauties in the eye of the beholder and that kind of applies how the network's laid out so Bobby you guys do a lot of high-performance encryption both on AWS and Azure that's kind of a unique thing for you how are you seeing that impact with multi cloud yeah and that's a new requirement for us to where we we have an equipment to encrypt and they they never get the question should i encryption and I'll encrypt the answer is always yes you should encrypt when you can encrypt for our perspective we we need to migrate a bunch of data from our data centers we have some huge data centers and then getting that data to the cloud is the timely experiencing some cases so we have been mandated that we have to encrypt everything leaving the data center so we're looking at using the aviatrix insane mode appliances to be able to encrypt you know 10 20 gigabits of data as it moves to the cloud itself David you're using terraform you got fire Ned you got a lot of complexity in your network what do you guys look at the future for your environment yeah so something exciting that or yeah now is fire net so for our security team they obviously have a lot of a lot of knowledge base around Palo Alto and with our commitments to our clients you know it's it's it's not very easy to shift your security model to a specific cloud vendor right so there's a lot of stuck to compliance or things like that where being able to take some of what you've you know you've worked on for years on Bram and put it in the cloud and have the same type of assurance that things are gonna work and be secure in the same way that they are on prem helps make that journey into the cloud a lot easier and Louis you guys got scripting you got a lot of things going on what's your what's your unique angle on this yeah no absolutely so full disclosure I'm not a not not an aviatrix customer yet it's ok wanna hear the truth that's good Ellis what are you thinking about what's on your mind no really when you when you talk about implementing the tool like this it's really just really important to talk about automation and focus on on value so when you talk about things like encryption and things like so yeah encrypting tunnels and encrypting the paths and those things are it should it should should be second nature really when you when you look at building those backends and managing them with your team it becomes really painful so tools like aviatrix that that add a lot of automation it's out of out of sight out of mind you can focus on the value and you don't have to focus on so I gotta ask you guys I'll see aviatrix is here they're their supplier to the sector but you guys are customers everyone's pitching you stuff these people are not gonna here to buy my stuff how do you guys have that conversation with the suppliers like the cloud vendors and other folks what's the what's it like we're API all the way you got to support this what are some of the what are some of your requirements how do you talk to and evaluate people that walk in and want to knock on your door and pitch you something what's the conversation like it's definitely it's definitely API driven we we definitely look at the at the PAP i structure of the vendors provide before we select anything that that is always first of mine and also what a problem are we really trying to solve usually people try to sell or try to give us something that isn't really valuable like implementing a solution on the on the on the cloud isn't really it doesn't really add a lot of value that's where we go David what's your conversation like with suppliers you have a certain new way to do things as as becomes more agile and essentially the networking and more dynamic what are some of the conversation is with the either incumbents or new new vendors that you're having what do what do you require yeah so ease of use is definitely definitely high up there we've had some vendors come in and say you know hey you know when you go to set this up we're gonna want to send somebody on-site and they're gonna sit with you for a day to configure it and that's kind of a red flag what wait a minute you know do we really if one of my really talented engineers can't figure it out on his own what's going on there and why is that so you know having having some ease-of-use and the team being comfortable with it and understanding it is really important probably how about you I mean the old days was do a bake-off and you know the winner takes all I mean is it like that anymore what's involving take off last year first you win so but that's different now because now you and you when you get the product you can install the product in AWS energy or have it up and running a matter of minutes and so key is is that it can you be operational you know within hours or days instead of weeks right but do we also have the flexibility to customize it to meet your needs could you want to be you want to be put into a box with the other customers we have needs that surpassed or cut their needs yeah I almost see the challenge of you guys are living where you've got the cloud immediate value depending on roll-up any solutions but then you have might have other needs so you've got to be careful not to buy into stuff that's not shipping so you're trying to be proactive at the same time deal with what you got I mean how do you guys see that evolving because multi-cloud to me is definitely relevant but it's not yet clear how to implement across how do you guys look at this baked versus you know future solutions coming how do you balance that so again so right now we we're we're taking the the ad hoc approach and and experimenting with the different concepts of cloud and really leveraging the the native constructs of each cloud but but there's it there's a breaking point for sure you don't you don't get to scale this I like like Seamon said and you have to focus on being able to deliver a developer they're their sandbox or their play area for the for the things that they're trying to build quickly and the only way to do that is with the with with some sort of consistent orchestration layer that allows you to so you've spent a lot more stuff to be coming pretty quickly IDEs area I do expect things to start to start maturing quite quite quickly this year and you guys see similar trend new stuff coming fast yeah you know part of the biggest challenge we've got now is being able to segment within the network being able to provide segmentation between production on production workloads even businesses because we support many businesses worldwide and and isolation between those is a key criteria there so the ability to identify and quickly isolate those workloads is key so the CIOs that are watching or that are saying hey take that he'll do multi cloud and then you know the bottoms up organization take pause you're kind of like off it's not how it works I mean what is the reality in terms of implementing you know in as fast as possible because the business benefits are clear but it's not always clear in the technology how to move that fast yeah what are some of the barriers what are the blockers what are the enablers I think the reality is is that you may not think your multi-cloud but your business is right so I think the biggest barriers there is understanding what the requirements are and how best to meet those requirements Inc and then secure manner because you need to make sure that things are working from a latency perspective that things work the way they did and get out of the mind shift that you know it was a cheery application in the data center it doesn't have to be a Tier three application in the cloud so lift and shift is is not the way to go scale is a big part of what I see is the competitive advantage to lot of these clouds and they used to be proprietary network stacks in the old days and then open systems came that was a good thing but as clouds become bigger there's kind of an inherent lock in there with the scale how do you guys keep the choice open how're you guys thinking about interoperability what are some of the conversations and you guys are having around those key concepts well when we look at when we look at the problem from a networking perspective it it's really key for you to just enable enable all the all the clouds to be to be able to communicate between them developers will will find a way to use the cloud that best suits their their business need and and like like you said it's whether whether you're in denial or not of the multi cloud fact that then your company is in already that's it becomes really important for you to move quickly yeah and a lot of it also hinges on how well is the provider embracing what that specific cloud is doing so are they are they swimming with Amazon or Azure and just helping facilitate things they're doing the you know the heavy lifting API work for you or are they swimming upstream and they're trying to hack it all together in a messy way and so that helps you you know stay out of the lock-in because they're you know if they're doing if they're using Amazon native tools to help you get where you need to be it's not like Amazon's gonna release something in the future that completely you know you have designed yourself into a corner so the closer they're more than cloud native they are the more the easier it is to to deploy but you also need to be aligned in such a way that you can take advantage of those cloud native technologies will they make sense tgw is a game changer in terms of cost and performance right so to completely ignore that would be wrong but you know if you needed to have encryption you know teach Adobe's not encrypted so you need to have some type of a gateway to do the VPN encryption you know so the aviatrix tool gives you the beauty of both worlds you can use tgw or the Gateway Wow real quick in the last minute we have I want to just get a quick feedback from you guys I hear a lot of people say to me hey the I picked the best cloud for the workload you got and then figure out multi cloud behind the scenes so that seems to be do you guys agree with that I mean is it do I go mole to one cloud across the whole company or this workload works great on AWS that work was great on this from a cloud standpoint you agree with that premise and then witness multi-cloud stitch them all together yeah from from an application perspective it it can be per workload but it can also be an economical decision certain enterprise contracts will will pull you in one direction to add value but the the network problem is still the same go away yeah yeah I mean you don't want to be trying to fit a square into a round Hall right so if it works better on that cloud provider then it's our job to make sure that that service is there and people can use it agree you just need to stay ahead of the game make sure that the then they're working for structure is there secure is available and is multi cloud capable yeah I'm at the end the day you guys just validating that it's the networking game now cloud storage compute check networking is where the action is awesome thanks for your insights guys appreciate you coming on the panel appreciate Thanks thank you [Applause] [Music] [Applause] okay welcome back on the live feed I'm John for its Dee Mulaney my co-host with aviatrix I'm with the cube for the special digital event our next customer panel got great another set of cloud network architects Justin Smith was aura Justin broadly with Ellie Mae and Amit Oh tree job with Koopa Pokemon stage [Applause] all right thank you thank you oK you've got all the cliff notes from the last session welcome rinse and repeat yeah yeah we're going to go under the hood a little bit I think I think they nailed the what we've been reporting and we've been having this conversation around networking is where the action is because that's the end of the day you got a move attack from A to B and you get work gloves exchanging data so it's really killer so let's get started Amit what are you seeing as the journey of multi cloud as you go under the hood and say okay I got to implement this I have to engineer the network make it enabling make it programmable make it interoperable across clouds I mean that's like I mean almost sounds impossible to me what's your taking yeah I mean it it seems impossible but if you are running an organization which is running infrastructure as a cordon all right it is easily doable like you can use tools out there that's available today you can use third-party products that can do a better job but but put your architecture first don't wait architecture may not be perfect put the best architecture that's available today and be agile to iterate and make improvements over the time we got to Justin's over here so I have to be careful when I point a question adjusting they both have to answer but okay journeys what's the journey been like I mean is there phases we heard that from Gardner people come into multi cloud and cloud native networking from different perspectives what's your take on the journey Justin yeah I mean from Mars like to we started out very much focused on one cloud and as we started doing Atkins we started doing new products the market the need for multi cloud comes very apparent very quickly for us and so you know having an architecture that we can plug in play into and be able to add and change things as it changes is super important for what we're doing in the space just in your journey yes for us we were very ad hoc oriented and the idea is that we were reinventing all the time trying to move into these new things and coming up with great new ideas and so rather than it being some iterative approach with our deployments that became a number of different deployments and so we shifted that tour and the network has been a real enabler of this is that it there's one network and it touches whatever cloud we want it to touch and it touches the data centers that we need it to touch and it touches the customers that we need it to touch our job is to make sure that the services that are available and one of those locations are available in all of the locations so the idea is not that we need to come up with this new solution every time it's that we're just iterating on what we've already decided to do before we get the architecture section I want to ask you guys a question I'm a big fan of you know let the app developers have infrastructure as code so check but having the right cloud run that workload I'm a big fan of that if it works great but we just heard from the other panel you can't change the network so I want to get your thoughts what is cloud native networking and is that the engine really got the enabler for this multi cloud trend but you guys taken we'll start with a mint what do you think about that yeah so you are gonna have workloads running in different clouds and the workloads would have affinity to one cloud over other but how you expose that it's matter of how you are going to build your networks how we are going to run security how we are going to do egress ingress out of it so it means the big problem how do you split says what's the solution what's the end the key pain points and problem statement I mean the key pain point for most companies is how do you take your traditional on-premise network and then blow that out to the cloud in a way that makes sense you know IP conflicts you have IP space you pub public eye peas and premise as well as in the cloud and how do you kind of make a sense of all of that and I think that's where tools like aviatrix make a lot of sense in that space from our site it's it's really simple it's a latency and bandwidth and availability these don't change whether we're talking about cloud or data center or even corporate IT networking so our job when when these all of these things are simplified into like s3 for instance and our developers want to use those we have to be able to deliver that and for a particular group or another group that wants to use just just GCP resources these aren't we have to support these requirements and these wants as opposed to saying hey that's not a good idea our job is to enable them not to disable them do you think I do you guys think infrastructure has code which I love that I think that's the future it is we saw that with DevOps but I just start getting the networking is it getting down to the network portion where it's network is code because stores and compute working really well is seeing all kubernetes and service master and network is code reality is that there is got work to do it's absolutely there I mean you mentioned net DevOps and it's it's very real I mean in Cooper we build our networks through terraform and on not only just out of fun build an API so that we can consistently build V nets and VPC all across in the same way three guys do it yeah and even security groups and then on top an aviatrix comes in we can peer the networks bridge bridge all the different regions through code same with you guys but yeah think about this everything we deploy is done with automation and then we also run things like lambda on top to make changes in real time we don't make manual changes on our network in the data center funny enough it's still manual but the cloud has enabled us to move into this automation mindset and and all my guys that's what they focus on is is bringing what now what they're doing in the cloud into the data center which is kind of opposite of what it should be that's full or what it used to be it's full DevOps then yes yeah I mean for us was similar on premise still somewhat very manual although we're moving more Norton ninja and terraform concepts but everything in the production environment is colored confirmation terraform code and now coming into the datacenter same I just wanted to jump in on a Justin Smith one of the comment that you made cuz it's something that we always talk about a lot is that the center of gravity of architecture used to be an on-prem and now it's shifted in the cloud and once you have your strategic architecture what you--what do you do you push that everywhere so what you used to see at the beginning of cloud was pushing the architecture on prem into cloud now i want to pick up on what you said to you others agree that the center of architect of gravity is here i'm now pushing what i do in the cloud back into on-prem and what and then so first that and then also in the journey where are you at from 0 to 100 of actually in the journey to cloud do you 50% there are you 10% are you vacuum datacenters next year I mean were you guys at yeah so there's there's two types of gravity that you typically are dealing with with no migration first is data gravity and your data set and where that data lives and then the second is the network platform that interrupts all that together in our case the data gravity sold mostly on Prem but our network is now extend out to the app tier that's gonna be in cloud right eventually that data gravity will also move to cloud as we start getting more sophisticated but you know in our journey we're about halfway there about halfway through the process we're taking a handle of lift and shift and when did that start and we started about three years ago okay okay cool bye it's a very different story it started from a garage and 100% on the clock it's a business spend management platform as a software as a service 100% on the cloud it was like 10 years ago right yes yeah you guys are riding the wave love that architecture Justin I want to ask you is or you guys mentioned DevOps I mean honestly we saw the huge observability wave which is essentially network management for the cloud in my opinion right yeah it's more dynamic but this is about visibility we heard from the last panel you don't know what's being turned on or turned off from a services standpoint at any given time how is all this playing out when you start getting into the DevOps down well this this is the big challenge for all of us as visibility when you talk transport within a cloud you know we very interesting we have moved from having a backbone that we bought that we owned that would be data center connectivity we now I work for as or as a subscription billing company so we want to support the subscription mindset so rather than going and buying circuits and having to wait three months to install and then coming up with some way to get things connected and resiliency and redundancy I my backbone is in the cloud I use the cloud providers interconnections between regions to transport data across and and so if you do that with their native solutions you you do lose visibility there there are areas in that that you don't get which is why controlling you know controllers and having some type of management plane is a requirement for us to do what we're supposed to do and provide consistency while doing it a great conversation I loved when you said earlier latency bandwidth I think availability with your sim pop3 things guys SLA I mean you just do ping times between clouds it's like you don't know what you're getting for round-trip times this becomes a huge kind of risk management black hole whatever you want to call blind spot how are you guys looking at the interconnects between clouds because you know I can see that working from you know ground to cloud I'm per cloud but when you start doing with multi clouds workloads SLA is will be all of the map won't they just inherently but how do you guys view that yeah I think we talked about workload and we know that the workloads are going to be different in different clouds but they are going to be calling each other so it's very important to have that visibility that you can see how data is flowing at what latency and what our ability is hour is there and our authority needs to operate on that so it's solely use the software dashboard look at the times and look at the latency in the old day is strong so on open so on you try to figure it out and then your day is you have to figure out just what's your answer to that because you're in the middle of it yeah I mean I think the key thing there is that we have to plan for that failure we have to plan for that latency in our applications that's starting start tracking your SLI something you start planning for and you loosely couple these services and a much more micro services approach so you actually can handle that kind of failure or that type of unknown latency and unfortunately the cloud has made us much better at handling exceptions a much better way you guys are all great examples of cloud native from day one and you guys had when did you have the tipping point moment or the Epiphany of saying a multi clouds real I can't ignore it I got to factor it into all my design design principles and and everything you're doing what's it was there a moment over that was it from day one now there are two divisions one was the business so in business there was some affinity to not be in one cloud or to be in one cloud and that drove from the business side so as a cloud architect our responsibility was to support that business and other is the technology some things are really running better in like if you are running dot network load or you are going to run machine learning or AI so that you have you would have that reference of one cloud over other so it was the bill that we got from AWS I mean that's that's what drives a lot of these conversations is the financial viability of what you're building on top of it which is so we this failure domain idea which is which is fairly interesting how do I solve our guarantee against a failure domain you have methodologies with you know back-end direct connects or interconnect with GCP all of these ideas are something that you have to take into account but that transport layer should not matter to whoever we're building this for our job is to deliver the frames in the packets what that flows across how you get there we want to make that seamless and so whether it's a public Internet API call or it's a back-end connectivity through Direct Connect it doesn't matter it just has to meet a contract that you signed with your application folks yeah that's the availability piece just on your thoughts on that I think any comment on that so actually multi clouds become something much more recent in the last six to eight months I'd say we always kind of had a very much an attitude of like moving to Amazon from our private cloud is hard enough why complicate it further but the realities of the business and as we start seeing you know improvements in Google and Asia and different technology spaces the need for multi cloud becomes much more important as well as our acquisition strategies I matured we're seeing that companies that used to be on premise that we typically acquire are now very much already on a cloud and if they're on a cloud I need to plug them into our ecosystem and so that's really change our multi cloud story in a big way I'd love to get your thoughts on the clouds versus the clouds because you know you compare them Amazon's got more features they're rich with features I see the bills are hiking people using them but Google's got a great network he googles networks pretty damn good and then you got Asher what's the difference between the clouds who where they evolve something where they peak in certain areas better than others what what are the characteristics which makes one cloud better do they have a unique feature that makes as you're better than Google and vice versa what do you guys think about the different clouds yeah to my experience I think there is the approach is different in many places Google has a different approach very DevOps friendly and you can run your workload like the your network can span regions time I mean but our application ready to accept that MS one is evolving I mean I remember 10 years back Amazon's Network was a flat network we will be launching servers and 10.0.0.0 so so the VP sees concept came out multi-account came out so they are evolving as you are at a late start but because they have a late start they saw the pattern and they they have some mature set up on the I mean I think they're all trying to say they're equal in their own ways I think they all have very specific design philosophies that allow them to be successful in different ways and you have to kind of keep that in mind as you architect your own solution for example Amazon has a very much a very regional affinity they don't like to go cross region in their architecture whereas Google is very much it's a global network we're gonna think about as a global solution I think Google also has a banjo it's third to market and so it has seen what a sure did wrong it's seen what AWS did wrong and it's made those improvements and I think that's one of their big advantage at great scale to Justin thoughts on the cloud so yeah Amazon built from the system up and Google built from the network down so their ideas and approaches are from a global versus or regional I agree with you completely that that is the big number one thing but the if you look at it from the outset interestingly the the inability or the ability for Amazon to limit layer two broadcasting and and what that really means from a VPC perspective changed all the routing protocols you can use all the things that we have built inside of a data center to provide resiliency and and and make things seamless to users all of that disappeared and so because we had to accept that at the VPC level now we have to accept it at the LAN level Google's done a better job of being able to overcome those things and provide those traditional network facilities to us just great panel can go all day here's awesome so I heard we could we'll get to the cloud native naive questions so kind of think about what's not even what's cloud is that next but I got to ask you had a conversation with a friend he's like Wayne is the new land so if you think about what the land was at a datacenter when is the new link you get talking about the cloud impact so that means st when the old st winds kind of changing into the new land how do you guys look at that because if you think about it what lands were for inside a premises was all about networking high speed but now when you take a win and make the essentially a land do you agree with that and how do you view this trend and is it good or bad or is it ugly and what's what you guys take on this yeah i think it's a it's a thing that you have to work with your application architect so if you are managing networks and if you're a sorry engineer you need to work with them to expose the unreliability that would bring in so the application has to hand a lot of this the difference in the latencies and and the reliability has to be worked through the application there land when same concept as that BS I think we've been talking about for a long time the erosion of the edge and so is this is just a continuation of that journey we've been on for the last several years as we get more and more cloud native and we start about API is the ability to lock my data in place and not be able to access it really goes away and so I think this is just continuation that thing I think it has challenges we start talking about weighing scale versus land scale the tooling doesn't work the same the scale of that tooling is much larger and the need to automation is much much higher in a way and than it was in a land that's what you're seeing so much infrastructure as code yeah yeah so for me I'll go back again to this its bandwidth and its latency right that that define those two land versus when but the other thing that comes up more and more with cloud deployments is where is our security boundary and where can I extend this secure aware appliance or set of rules to protect what's inside of it so for us we're able to deliver VRS or route forwarding tables for different segments wherever we're at in the world and so they're they're trusted to talk to each other but if they're gonna go to someplace that's outside of their their network then they have to cross a security boundary and where we enforce policy very heavily so for me there's it's not just land when it's it's how does environment get to environment more importantly that's a great point and security we haven't talked to yet but that's got to be baked in from the beginning that's architecture thoughts on security are you guys are dealing with it yeah start from the base have app to app security built-in have TLS have encryption on the data a transit data at rest but as you bring the application to the cloud and they are going to go multi-cloud talking to over the Internet in some places well have apt web security I mean I mean our principals day security is day zero every day and so we we always build it into our design we want our architecture into our applications its encrypt everything its TLS everywhere it's make sure that that data is secured at all times yeah one of the cool trends at RSA just as a side note was the data in use encryption piece which is a homomorphic stuff was interesting all right guys final question you know we heard on the earlier panel was also trending at reinvent we take the tea out of cloud native it spells cloud naive okay they got shirts now aviatrix kind of got this trend going what does that mean to be naive so if you're to your peers out there watching a live stream and also the suppliers that are trying to supply you guys with technology and services what's naive look like and what's native look like when is someone naive about implementing all this stuff so for me it's because we are in hundred-percent cloud for us it's main thing is ready for the change and you will you will find new building blocks coming in and the network design will evolve and change so don't be naive insane that it's static you wall with the change I think the big naivety that people have is that well I've been doing it this way for 20 years and been successful it's going to be successful in cloud the reality is that's not the case you have to think some of the stuff a little bit differently and you need to think about it early enough so that you can become cloud native and really enable your business on cloud yeah for me it's it's being open minded right the the our industry the network industry as a whole has been very much I am smarter than everybody else and we're gonna tell everybody how it's going to be done and we had we fell into a lull when it came to producing infrastructure and and and so embracing this idea that we can deploy a new solution or a new environment in minutes as opposed to hours or weeks or four months in some cases is really important and and so you know it's not me being closed-minded native being open minded exactly and and it took a for me it was that was a transformative kind of where I was looking to solve problems in a cloud way as opposed to looking to solve problems in this traditional old-school way all right I know we're out of time but I ask one more question so you guys so good it could be a quick answer what's the BS language when you the BS meter goes off when people talk to you about solutions what's the kind of jargon that you hear that's the BS meter going off what are people talking about that in your opinion you here you go that's total B yes but what triggers use it so that I have two lines out of movies that are really I can if I say them without actually thinking them it's like 1.21 jigowatts are you out of your mind from Back to the Future right somebody's giving you all these and then and then Martin Mull and and Michael Keaton and mr. mom when he goes to 22 21 whatever it takes yeah those two right there if those go off in my mind somebody's talking to me I know they're full of baloney so a lot of speech would be a lot of speeds and feeds a lot of data did it instead of talking about what you're actually doing and solutioning for you're talking about well I does this this this and any time I start seeing the cloud vendor start benchmarking against each other it's your workload is your workload you need a benchmark yourself don't don't listen to the marketing on that that's that's all what triggers you and the bsp I think if somebody explains you and not simple they cannot explain you in simplicity then that's good all right guys thanks for the great insight great pen how about a round of applause DX easy solutions integrating company that we service customers from all industry verticals and we're helping them to move to the digital world so as a solutions integrator we interface with many many customers that have many different types of needs and they're on their IT journey to modernize their applications into the cloud so we encounter many different scenarios many different reasons for those migrations all of them seeking to optimize their IT solutions to better enable their business we have our CPS organization it's cloud platform services we support AWS does your Google Alibaba porco will help move those workloads to wherever it's most appropriate no one buys the house for the plumbing equally no one buys the solution for the networking but if the plumbing doesn't work no one likes the house and if this network doesn't work no one likes a solution so network is ubiquitous it is a key component of every solution we do the network connectivity is the lifeblood of any architecture without network connectivity nothing works properly planning and building a scalable robust network that's gonna be able to adapt with the application needs its critical when encountering some network design and talking about speed the deployment aviatrix came up in discussion and we then further pursued an area DHT products that incorporated aviatrix is part of a new offering that we are in the process of developing that really enhances our ability to provide cloud connectivity for the lance cloud connectivity there's a new line of networking services that we're getting into as our clients moving the hybrid cloud networking it is much different than our traditional based services an aviatrix provides a key component in that service before we found aviatrix we were using just native peering connections but there wasn't a way to visualize all those peering connections and with multiple accounts multiple contacts for security with a v8 church we were able to visualize those different peering connections of security groups it helped a lot especially in areas of early deployment scenarios were quickly able to then take those deployment scenarios and turn them into scripts that we can then deploy repeatedly their solutions were designed for work with the cloud native capabilities first and where those cloud native capabilities fall short they then have solution sets that augment those capabilities I was pleasantly surprised number one with the aviatrix team as a whole in their level of engagement with us you know we weren't only buying the product we were buying a team that came on board to help us implement and solution that was really good to work together to learn both what aviatrix had to offer as well as enhancements that we had to bring that aviatrix was able to put into their product and meet our needs even better aviatrix was a joy to find because they really provided us the technology that we needed in order to provide multi cloud connectivity that really added to the functionality that you can't get from the basically providing services we're taking our customers on a journey to simplify and optimize their IT infrastructure baby Atrix certainly has made my job much easier okay welcome back to altitude 2020 for the digital event for the live feed welcome back I'm John fray with the cube with Steve Mulaney CEO aviatrix for the next panel from global system integrators the folks who are building and working with folks on their journey to multi cloud and cloud native networking we've got a great panel George Buckman with dxc and Derek Monahan with wwt welcome to the stage [Applause] [Music] okay you guys are the ones out there advising building and getting down and dirty with multi cloud and cloud native network and we start from the customer panel you can see the diversity of where people come into the journey of cloud it kind of depends upon where you are but the trends are all clear cloud native networking DevOps up and down the stack this has been the main engine what's your guys take of the disk Jerry to multi cloud what do you guys seeing yep yeah it's it's critical I mean we're seeing all of our enterprise customers enter into this they've been through the migrations of the easy stuff you know now they're trying to optimize and get more improvement so now the tough stuffs coming on right and you know they need their data processing near where their data is so that's driving them to a multi cloud environment okay we heard some of the edge stuff I mean you guys are you've seen this movie before but now it's a whole new ballgame what's your take yeah so I'll give you a hint so our practice it's not called the cloud practice it's the multi cloud practice and so if that gives you a hint of how we approach things it's very consultative and so when we look at what the trends are let's look a little year ago about a year ago we were having conversations with customers let's build a data center in the cloud let's put some VP C's let's throw some firewalls with some DNS and other infrastructure out there and let's hope it works this isn't a science project so what we're trying we're starting to see is customers are starting to have more of a vision and we're helping with that consultative nature but it's totally based on the business and you got to start understanding how the lines of business are using the apps and then we evolved into that next journey which is a foundational approach to what are some of the problem statements customers are solving when they come to you what are the top things that are on their my house or the ease of use of Julie all that stuff but what specifically they did digging into yeah some complexity I think when you look at a multi cloud approach in my view is network requirements are complex you know I think they are but I think the approach can be let's simplify that so one thing that we try to do this is how we talk to customers is let's just like you simplify an aviatrix simplifies the automation orchestration of cloud networking we're trying to simplify the design the planning implementation of infrastructure across multiple workloads across multiple platforms and so the way we do it is we sit down we look at not just use cases and not just the questions in common we anticipate we actually build out based on the business and function requirements we build out a strategy and then create a set of documents and guess what we actually build in the lab and that lab that we platform we built proves out this reference architecture actually works absolutely we implement similar concepts I mean we they're proven practices they work great so well George you mentioned that the hard parts now upon us are you referring to networking what is specifically were you getting at Tara says the easy parts done that so for the enterprises themselves migrating their more critical apps or more difficult apps into the environments you know they've just we've just scratched the surface I believe on what enterprises that are doing to move into the cloud to optimize their environments to take advantage of the scale and speed to deployment and to be able to better enable their businesses so they're just now really starting the >> so do you get you guys see what I talked about them in terms of their Cambrian explosion I mean you're both monster system integrators with you know top fortune enterprise customers you know really rely on you for for guidance and consulting and so forth and boy they're networks is that something that you you've seen I mean - does that resonate did you notice a year and a half ago and all of a sudden the importance of cloud for enterprise shoot up yeah I mean we're seeing it okay in our internal environment as you know we're a huge company or as customers are in 30 so we're experiencing that internal okay and every one of our other customers so I I have another question oh but I don't know the answer to this and the lawyer never asks a question that you don't know the answer to but I'm gonna ask it anyway DX c @ w WT massive system integrators why aviatrix yep so great question Steve so I think the way we approach things I think we have a similar vision a similar strategy how you approach things how we approach things that world by technology number one we want to simplify the complexity and so that's your number one priorities let's take the networking but simplify it and I think part of the other point I'm making is we have we see this automation piece as not just an afterthought anymore if you look at what customers care about visibility and automation is probably the at the top three maybe the third on the list and I think that's where we see the value and I think the partnership that we're building and what I what I get excited about is not just putting yours in our lab and showing customers how it works is Co developing a solution with you figuring out hey how can we make this better Bank visibily is a huge thing jump in security alone network everything's around visibility what automation you see happening in terms of progression order of operations if you will it's the low-hanging fruit what are people working on now and what are what are some of the aspirational goals around when you start thinking about multi cloud an automation yep so I wanted to get back to answer that question I want to answer your question you know what led us there and why aviatrix you know in working some large internal IT projects and and looking at how we were going to integrate those solutions you know we like to build everything with recipes where network is probably playing catch-up in the DevOps world but with a DevOps mindset looking to speed to deploy support all those things so when you start building your recipes you take a little of this a little of that and you mix it all together well when you look around you say wow look there's this big bag of athe let me plop that in that solves a big part of my problems that I have to speed to integrate speed to deploy and the operational views that I need to run this so that was 11 years about reference architectures yeah absolutely so you know they came with a full slate of reference architectures already the out there and ready to go that fit our needs so it's very very easy for us to integrate those into our recipes what do you guys think about all the multi vendor interoperability conversations that have been going on choice has been a big part of multi cloud in terms of you know customers want choice didn't you know they'll put a workload in the cloud that works but this notion of choice and interoperability is become a big conversation it is and I think our approach and that's why we talk to customers is let's let's speed and D risk of that decision making process and how do we do that because the interoperability is key you're not just putting it's not just a single vendor we're talking you know many many vendors I mean think about the average number of cloud application as a customer uses a business and enterprise business today you know it's it's above 30 it's it's skyrocketing and so what we do and we look at it from an Billee approach is how do things interoperate we test it out we validate it we build a reference architecture says these are the critical design elements now let's build one with aviatrix and show how this works with aviatrix and I think the the important part there though is the automation piece that we add to it invisibility so I think the visibility is what's what I see lack in cross industry today and the cloud needed that's been a big topic okay in terms of aviatrix as you guys see them coming in there one of the ones that are emerging and the new brands emerging with multi cloud you still got the old guard incumbent with huge footprints how our customers dealing with that that kind of component and dealing with both of them yeah I mean where we have customers that are ingrained with a particular vendor and you know we have partnerships with many vendors so our objective is to provide the solution that meets that client and you they all want multi vendor they all want interoperability correct all right so I got to ask you guys a question what we were defining day to operations what does that mean I mean you guys are looking at the big business and technical components of architecture what does day to Operations mean what's the definition of that yeah so I think from our perspective my experience we you know day to operations whether it's it's not just the you know the orchestration piece and setting up and let it a lot of automate and have some you know change control you're looking at this from a data perspective how do I support this ongoing and make it easy to make changes as we evolve that the the cloud is very dynamic the the nature of how the fast is expanding the number of features is astonishing trying to keep up to date with a number of just networking capabilities and services that are added so I think day to operation starts with a fundable understanding of you know building out supporting a customer's environments and making it the automation piece easy from from you know a distance I think yeah and you know taking that to the next level of being able to enable customers to have catalog items that they can pick and choose hey I need this network connectivity from this cloud location back to this on pram and being able to have that automated and provisioned just simply by ordering it for the folks watching out there guys take a minute to explain as you guys are in the trenches doing a lot of good work what are some of the engagement that you guys get into how does that progress what is the what's what happens there they call you up and say hey I need multi-cloud or you're already in there I mean take us through why how someone can engage to use a global si to come in and make this thing happen what's typical engagement look like yeah so from our perspective we typically have a series of workshops in a methodology that we kind of go along the journey number one we have a foundational approach and I don't mean foundation meaning the network foundation that's a very critical element we got a factor in security we've got to factor in automation so we think about foundation we do a workshop that starts with education a lot of times we'll go in and we'll just educate the customer what does VPC sharing you know what is a private link and asher how does that impact your business you know customers I want to share services out in an ecosystem with other customers and partners well there's many ways to accomplish that so our goal is to you know understand those requirements and then build that strategy with them thoughts Georgia yeah I mean I'm one of the guys that's down in the weeds making things happen so I'm not the guy on the front line interfacing with the customers every day but we have a similar approach you know we have a consulting practice that will go out and and apply their practices to see what those and when do you parachute in yeah and when I've been is I'm on the back end working with our offering development leads for the networking so we understand or seeing what customers are asking for and we're on the back end developing the solutions that integrate with our own offerings as well as enable other customers to just deploy quickly to meet their connectivity needs it so the patterns are similar right final question for you guys I want to ask you to paint a picture of what success looks like and you know the name customers didn't again reveal kind of who they are but what does success look like in multi-cloud as you as you paint a picture for the folks here and watching on the live stream it's someone says hey I want to be multi-cloud I got to have my operations agile I want full DevOps I want programmability security built in from day zero what does success look like yeah I think success looks like this so when you're building out a network the network is a harder thing to change than some other aspects of cloud so what we think is even if you're thinking about that second cloud which we have most of our customers are on to public clouds today they might be dabbling in is you build that network foundation at architecture that takes in consideration where you're going and so once we start building that reference architecture out that shows this is how to sit from a multi-cloud perspective not a single cloud and let's not forget our branches let's not forget our data centers let's not forget how all this connects together because that's how we define multi-cloud it's not just in the cloud it's on Prem and it's off Prem and so collectively I think the key is also is that we provide them an hld you got to start with a high level design that can be tweaked as you go through the journey but you got to give a solid structural foundation and that networking which we think most customers think as not not the network engineers but as an afterthought we want to make that the most critical element before you start the journey Jorge from your seed how do you success look for you so you know it starts out on these journeys often start out people not even thinking about what is gonna happen with what their network needs are when they start their migration journey to the cloud so I want this success to me looks like them being able to end up not worrying about what's happening in the network when they move to the cloud good guys great insight thanks for coming on share and pen I've got a round of applause the global system integrators [Applause] [Music] okay welcome back from the live feed I'm chef for with the q Steve Valenti CEO of aviatrix my co-host our next panel is the aviatrix certified engineer is also known as aces this is the folks that are certified their engineering they're building these new solutions please welcome Toby Foss from informatica Stacy linear from Teradata and Jennifer Reed with Victor Davis to the stage I was just gonna I was just gonna rip you guys see where's your jackets and Jen's got the jacket on okay good love the aviatrix aces pile of gear they're above the clouds story to new heights that's right so guys aviatrix aces love the name I think it's great certified this is all about getting things engineered so there's a level of certification I want to get into that but first take us through the day in the life of an ace and just to point out Stacey's a squad leader so he's like it Squadron Leader Roger and leader yeah Squadron Leader he's got a bunch of aces underneath him but share your perspective day-in-the-life Jennifer we'll start with you sure so I have actually a whole team that works for me both in the in the North America both in the US and in Mexico and so I'm really working to get them certified as well so I can become a squad leader myself but it's important because one of the the critical gaps that we've found is people having the networking background because they're you graduate from college and you have a lot of computer science background you can program you've got Python but networking in packets they just don't get and so just taking them through all the processes that it's really necessary to understand when you're troubleshooting is really critical mm-hm and because you're gonna get an issue where you need to figure out where exactly is that happening on the network you know is my my issue just in the V PC is and on the instant side is a security group or is it going on print and is this something actually embedded within Amazon itself I mean I should troubleshot an issue for about six months going back and forth with Amazon and it was the vgw VPN because they were auto-scaling on two sides and we ended up having to pull out the Cisco's and put in aviatrix so I could just say okay it's fixed and actually actually helped the application teams get to that and get it solved yeah but I'm taking a lot of junior people and getting them through that certification process so they can understand and see the network the way I see the network I mean look I've been doing this for 25 years when I got out when I went in the Marine Corps that's what I did and coming out the network is still the network but people don't get the same training they get they got in the 90s it's just so easy just write some software they work takes care of itself yes he'll be will good I'll come back to that I want to come back to that problem solve with Amazon but Toby I think the only thing I have to add to that is that it's always the network fault as long as I've been in never I've always been the network's fault and I'm even to this day you know it's still the network's fault and part of being a network guy is that you need to prove when it is and when it's not your fault and that means you need to know a little bit about a hundred different things to make that and now you've got a full stack DevOps you got to know a lot more times another 100 and these times are changing yeah they say you're Squadron Leader I get that right what is what is the squadron leader first can you describe what it is I think probably just leading all the network components of it but not they from my perspective when to think about what you ask them was it's about no issues and the escalation soft my day is a good outcome that's a good day it's a good day again every mission the Amazon this brings up a good point you know when you have these new waves come in you have a lot of new things new we use cases a lot of the finger-pointing it's that guys problem that girls problem so what how do you solve that and how do you get the young guns up to speed is there training is that this is where the certification comes in was where the certification is really going to come in I know when we we got together at reinvent one of the the questions that that we had with Steve and the team was what what should our certification look like you know she would just be teaching about what aviatrix troubleshooting brings to bear like what should that be like and I think Toby and I were like no no no that's going a little too high we need to get really low because the the better someone can get at actually understanding what actually happening in the network and and where to actually troubleshoot the problem how to step back each of those processes because without that it's just a big black box and they don't know you know because everything is abstracted in Amazon Internet and Azure and Google is substracted and they have these virtual gateways they have VPNs that you just don't have the logs on it's you just don't know and so then what tools can you put in front of them of where they can look because there are four logs well as long as they turned on the flow logs when they built it you know and there's like each one of those little things that well if they'd had decided to do that when they built it it's there but if you can come in later to really supplement that with training to actual troubleshoot and do a packet capture here as it's going through then teaching them how to read that even yeah Toby we were talking before he came on up on stage about your career you've been networking all your time and then you know you're now mentoring a lot of younger people how is that going because the people who come in fresh they don't have all the old war stories they don't know you talk about yeah that's never fault I walk in Mayr feet in the snow when I was your age I mean it's so easy now right they say what's your take on how you train the young piece so I've noticed two things one is that they are up to speed a lot faster in generalities of networking they can tell you what a network is in high school level now where I didn't learn that too midway through my career and they're learning it faster but they don't necessarily understand why it's that way here you know everybody thinks that it's always slash 24 for a subnet and they don't understand why you can break it down smaller why it's really necessary so the the ramp up speed is much faster for these guys that are coming in but they don't understand why and they need some of that background knowledge to see where it's coming from and why is it important and old guys that's where we thrive Jennifer you mentioned you got in from the Marines health spa when you got into networking how what was it like then and compare it now most like we've heard earlier static versus dynamic don't be static because back then you just said the network you got a perimeter yeah I know there was no such thing yeah no so back in the day I mean I mean we had banyan vines for email and you know we had token ring and I had to set up token ring networks and figure out why that didn't work because how many of things were actually sharing it but then actually just cutting fiber and running fiber cables and dropping them over you know shelters to plug them in and oh crap they swung it too hard and shattered it and how I gotta be great polished this thing and actually shoot like to see if it works I mean that was the network current five cat 5 cables to run an Ethernet you know and then from that just said network switches dumb switches like those were the most common ones you had then actually configuring routers and you know logging into a Cisco router and actually knowing how to configure that and it was funny because I had gone all the way up and was a software product manager for a while so I've gone all the way up the stack and then two and a half three years ago I came across to to work with entity group that became Victor Davis but we went to help one of our customers Avis and it was like okay so we need to fix the network okay I haven't done this in 20 years but all right let's get to it you know because it really fundamentally does not change it's still the network I mean I've had people tell me well you know when we go to containers we will not have to worry about the network and I'm like yeah you don't I do and then with this with and programmability is it really interesting so I think this brings up the certification what are some of the new things that people should be aware of that come in with the aviatrix ace certification what are some of the highlights can you guys share some of the some of the highlights around the certifications I think some of the importance is that it's it doesn't need to be vendor specific for network generality or basic networking knowledge and instead of learning how Cisco does something or how Palo Alto does something we need to understand how and why it works as a basic model and then understand how each vendor has gone about that problem and solved it in a general that's true in multi cloud as well you can't learn how cloud networking works without understanding how AWS integer and GCP are all slightly the same but slightly different and some things work and some things don't I think that's probably the number one take I think having a certification across clouds is really valuable because we heard the global s eyes cover the business issues what does it mean to do that is it code is that networking is the configuration is that aviatrix what is the I mean obviate races the ACE certifications but what is it about the multi cloud that makes it multi networking and multi vendor easy answer is yes so you got to be a general let's go to your hands and all you have to be it takes experience because it's every every cloud vendor has their own certification whether that is ops and [Music] advanced networking and advanced security or whatever it might be yeah they can take the test but they have no idea how to figure out what's wrong with that system and the same thing with any certification but it's really getting your hands in there and actually having to troubleshoot the problems you know actually work the problem you know and calm down it's going to be okay I mean because I don't know how many calls I've been on or even had aviatrix join me on it's like okay so everyone calm down let's figure out what's happening it's like we've looked at that screen three times looking at it again it's not gonna solve that problem right but at the same time you know remaining calm but knowing that it really is I'm getting a packet from here to go over here it's not working so what could be the problem you know and actually stepping them through those scenarios but that's like you only get that by having to do it you know and seeing it and going through it and then I have a question so we you know I just see it we started this program maybe six ago we're seeing a huge amount of interest I mean we're oversubscribed on all the training sessions we've got people flying from around the country even with coronavirus flying to go to Seattle to go to these events were oversubscribed good is that watching leader would put there yeah is that something that you see in your organization's are you recommending that to people do you see I mean I'm just I guess I'm surprised I'm not surprised but I'm really surprised by the demand if you would of this multi-cloud network certification because it really isn't anything like that is that something you guys can comment on or do you see the same things in your organization's I see from my side because we operate in the multi cloud environment so it really helps and it's beneficial for us yeah I think I would add that uh networking guys have always needed to use certifications to prove that they know what they know right it's not good enough to say yeah I know IP addresses or I know how a network works and a couple little check marks or a little letters by your name helps give you validity um so even in our team we can say hey you know we're using these certifications to know that you know enough of the basics and enough of the understandings that you have the tools necessary right so I guess my final question for you guys is why an eighth certification is relevant and then second part is share with the livestream folks who aren't yet a certified or might want to jump in to be AVH or certified engineers why is it important so why is it relevant and why should someone want to be an ace-certified I'm used to write engineer I think my view is a little different I think certification comes from proving that you have the knowledge not proving that you get a certification to get know I mean they're backwards so when you've got the training in the understanding and the you use that to prove and you can like grow your certification list with it versus studying for a test to get a certification and have no understanding of ok so that who is the right person that look at this is saying I'm qualified is it a network engineer is it a DevOps person what's your view you know is it a certain you know I think cloud is really the answer it's the as we talked like the edge is getting eroded so is the network initially eating eroded we're getting more and more of some network some DevOps some security lots and lots of security because network is so involved in so many of them that it's just the next progression I would say I expand that to more automation engineers because we have those nails probably extended as well well I think that the training classes themselves are helpful especially the entry-level ones for people who may be quote-unquote cloud architects but have never done anything and networking for them to understand why we need those things to really work whether or not they go through to eventually get a certification is something different but I really think fundamentally understanding how these things work it makes them a better architect makes some better application developer but even more so as you deploy more of your applications into the cloud really getting an understanding even from our people who have tradition down on Prem networking they can understand how that's going to work in the cloud - well I know we've got just under 30 seconds left but I want to get one more question and just one more for the folks watching that are you maybe younger that don't have that networking training from your experiences each of you can answer why is it should they know about networking what's the benefit what's in it for them motivate them share some insights and why they should go a little bit deeper in networking Stacy we'll start with you we'll go down let's say it's probably fundamental right if you want to deliver solutions networking use the very top I would say if you fundamental of an operating system running on a machine how those machines talk together as a fundamental change is something that starts from the base and work your way up right well I think it's a challenge because you you've come from top-down now you're gonna start looking from bottom-up and you want those different systems to cross communicate and say you built something and you're overlapping IP space not that that doesn't happen but how can I actually make that still operate without having to reappear e-platform it's like those challenges like those younger developers or sis engineers can really start to get their hands around and understand those complexities and bring that forward in their career they got to know the pilot pipes are working and some plumbing that's right works at how to code it that's right awesome thank you guys for great insights ace certain babies you're certified engineers also known as aces give a round of applause thank you okay all right that concludes my portion thank you Steve thanks for have Don thank you very much that was fantastic everybody round of applause for John for you yeah so great event great event I'm not going to take long we've got we've got lunch outside for that for the people here just a couple of things just call to action right so we saw the Aces you know for those of you out on the stream here become a certified right it's great for your career it's great for not knowledge is is fantastic it's not just an aviatrix thing it's gonna teach you about cloud networking multi-cloud networking with a little bit of aviatrix exactly what the cisco CCIE program was for IP network that type of the thing that's number one second thing is is is is learn right so so there's a there's a link up there for the four to join the community again like I started this this is a community this is the kickoff to this community and it's a movement so go to what a v8 community a bh6 comm was starting a community at multi cloud so you know get get trained learn I'd say the next thing is we're doing over a hundred seminars in across the United States and also starting into Europe soon will come out and will actually spend a couple hours and talk about architecture and talk about those beginning things for those of you on the you know on the livestream in here as well you know we're coming to a city near you go to one of those events it's a great way to network with other people that are in the industry as well as start to learn and get on that multi-cloud journey and then I'd say the last thing is you know we haven't talked a lot about what aviatrix does here and that's intentional we want you you know leaving with wanting to know more and schedule get with us in schedule a multi our architecture workshop session so we we sit out with customers and we talk about where they're at in that journey and more important where they're going and to find that end state architecture from networking compute storage everything and everything you heard today every panel kept talking about architecture talking about operations those are the types of things that we saw we help you cook define that canonical architecture that system architecture that's yours so for so many of our customers they have three by five plotted lucid charts architecture drawings and it's the customer name slash aviatrix arc network architecture and they put it on their whiteboard that's what what we and that's the most valuable thing they get from us so this becomes their 20-year network architecture drawing that they don't do anything without talking to us and look at that architecture that's what we do in these multi hour workshop sessions with customers and that's super super powerful so if you're interested definitely call us and let's schedule that with our team so anyway I just want to thank everybody on the livestream thank everybody here hopefully it was it was very useful I think it was and joined the movement and for those of you here join us for lunch and thank you very much [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] you

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon + CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE here in Barcelona, Spain at the Fira, it's KubeCon + CloudNativeCon 2019. I'm Stu Miniman and my co-hosts for two days of live wall-to-wall coverage is Corey Quinn. Joining us back, we have two CUBE alums, Liz Rice, right to my right here who is a Technology Evangelist with Aqua security. Liz, thank you so much welcome back. >> Pleasure to be here. >> And Jeff Brewer, Vice President and Chief Architect, Small Business & Self-Employed Group, of Intuit. A CUBE alum since a few hours ago this morning. >> Yes, yes, thank you. >> Jeff, welcome back. >> Thank you. >> So, we've got you back with a different hat. Everybody in our industry can definitely recognize we wear lots of different hats we have lots of jobs thrown at us. Both of you are in the Technical Oversight Committee and Liz is not only a member but also the Chairperson, President. (people laughing) >> President is definitely a promotion. But, yeah, I'm Chair of the committee. >> Maybe, as it's known, the TOC. Liz, before we get there, your shirt says +1 binding. You have to explain for us and did not get a preview before the interview, so we'll see where this goes. >> It's one of the perks of being on the TOC. When we have something that comes to a vote we want to get input from the community so we ask anyone in the community to vote. But unless you're a member of the TOC your vote is non-binding. As a member of the committee, we have binding votes. And the traditional thing you write on the voting email is +1 binding. So, it's a nice surprise to get a t-shirt when I joined the TOC. >> Very nice. Can you just give us, our audience, that might not be familiar with the TOC, give us some of the key things about it. >> It's the Technical Oversight Committee for the CNCF. We are, really, the technical curation of the projects that come in to the CNCF. Which projects will get support and at what level because we have the sandbox experimentation stage then incubation and then finally graduation for the really established and kind of, de-risked projects. So, we're really evaluating the projects and kind of making a decision collaboratively on which ones we want the CNCF to support. >> All right. So Jeff, we had a great conversation with you about Intuit's cloud journey. Tell us how you got involved in the TOC. We always love the end users, not just using but participating in and helping to give some governance over what the community is doing. >> Yeah, so, about a year and a half ago we made a decision to acquire a small company called Applatix. Who was, actually, already in the end user community. And also contributors as well. Through that acquisition, I was part of that acquisition, I led that acquisition from the Intuit side and really got excited about the Kubernetes and the KubeCon story overall. Through the Kubernetes experts, I met them at a KubeCon and they introduced me to a whole lot more of the community. Just through some overall partnerships with AWS and also spending a lot of time with end-users that's how I really got to know the community a little bit. And then, was voted onto the CNCF as an end user representative in January. >> Wonderful. As far as you're concerned, as you go through this, do you find it challenging at times to separate your roles professionally from working for a large company, to whom many things matter incredibly. Again, as mentioned earlier, I am one of your customers. I care very much about technical excellence, coming out of Intuit, versus your involvement with the larger project. >> Yeah, so like most people in technology companies I'm extremely busy and I would love to spend, I would love to clone myself and spend more (laughing) more time. >> Everybody wants to submit a client project to the TOC we will prioritize that one. >> Exactly, exactly. >> The way I really balance it is that I make an explicit time carve out for those two activities. And most importantly, I attend the meetings. The TOC meetings that we have, those are extremely important. We get a lot of project reviews in those meetings. Liz chairs those meetings. That's where I always make sure that my schedule is cleared for that. >> Taking it, I guess, one step further. Do you find it challenging at all to separate out, in fact, when you're making decisions and making votes, for example, that are presumably binding, +1 binding as we've learned now, is the terminology. Do you find that you are often pulled between trying to advocate for your company and advocating for the community or are they invariably aligned in your mind? >> I mean, my job's the easiest because I come from an end user. So what I use and what I consume is likely what the community at large. There might be some niches and stuff like that. But I usually don't have that conflict. I don't know, as more of a vendor, you might have more of a conflict. >> It's something that I have be conscious of. I just try to mentally separate. I have a role with a company that pays my salary but when I'm doing open-source things if I feel conflicted about. This hasn't really come up yet, but if I do feel that there's some kind of conflict of interest I will always recuse myself. Actually, in my previous role, as the Co-Chair for the Program Committee for the KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Conference, on a couple of occasions we had competitors submit, and I would always just step back from those. Because it's the right thing to do. >> All right. So Liz, there's quite a few projects now, under the umbrella of CNCF. If I've go it right, it was like, 38 different ones. When Brian went on the stage this morning, 16 in the sandbox, 16 incubating and six have graduated now. How do you manage that? You know, there's some in the community they're like, oh my gosh, reminds us of like, big tent, from some initiatives. Some other things here, how much is too much? How do you balance that and what's the input of the TOC? >> Yeah, so one of the things that we're doing with the TOC is we've just established a thing called the SIGs, the special interest groups. Very much following the same model of Kubernetes SIGs. But the idea here is that we can, kind of formalize getting experts in the community to help us with particular kind of areas. So, we've already got a storage and security SIG set up. We expect there will be probably four to six more coming on board during the year. And that helps us with things like the project reviews and the due diligence to just be able to say, we would really appreciate some help. Those groups are also really enthusiastic about kind of sharing knowledge in the form of things like white papers. I think it will be really important for end-users to be able to navigate their way around these projects. Quite often there is more than one solution for a particular thing. And being able to, in a non-vendor way, in a neutral way, express why project X is good in one circumstance and project Y would be better in a different environment. There's work to be done there and I'm hoping to see that come out. >> This is one of my passions as the end user representative, is that trail map or that road map. That's one of the reasons why we really have invested at Intuit, in the Kubernetes technology and the Cloud Native technology. We didn't just roll them out as is. We actually curate them and create, really, a paved road for our developers to navigate that space. >> Yeah, and as we heard from your story it's not always, well, if there's some overlap you use SDO and Hellman. >> Yeah. >> That there's a fit for both of those in your environment, right. >> Yeah. >> From a, I guess, an end user perspective is there a waiting difference between someone like Intuit and someone like Twitter for pets, where there's a slight revenue scale, a slight revenue difference, like scale difference, like everything difference. >> Yes. >> Certainly, there is. I think that, but that's one of the beautiful things about the Cloud Native technologies. You can consume what you need and what you want, right. It's not one size fits all. A lot of people talk about, oh, there's a paradox of choice, there's so many projects, right. Actually, that's a benefit. Really, all you need is that road map to navigate your way through that, rather than just adopting a paved road that might not work for everybody. >> It almost feels, to some extent, almost like the AWS Service Catalog. Whenever you wind up looking at all the things they offer. It feels like going out to eat at the Cheesecake Factory. Where there is 80 pages of menu to flip through with some advertisements, great. And reminding yourself, at time, that they are not Pokemon, you do not need to catch them all. It's, sometimes, a necessary step, as you start to contextualize this. >> That's one of the great things about having over 80 members in the end user is. You can find a buddy, you can find a company like you. Talk to them, get connected with them and figure out what they're doing and learn from them. The community is broad enough to be able to do that. >> All right, so Liz, let's talk about security. >> Okay. (people laughing) >> You said there's a SIG that started up. Where are we, how are things going and you can you share about where we're going in the near future? >> The SIG came together from a group of people who really wanted to make it easier for end-users to roll out their Cloud Native stacks in a secure fashion. We don't always, as a community, speak the same language about security, we don't always have the most secure settings by default. They really came together around this common interest of just making it easier for people to secure. I think a big part of that will be looking at how the different projects, are they applying best practices from a security perspective? Is there more they should do to document how to operate their particular project more securely? I think that whole initiative and that group of people who've come together for SIG security, I'm so impressed and so pleased that they have come together with that enthusiasm to help on that front. >> Any commentary on what you're seeing in this space? >> Yeah, so as an almost, a fintech company, with a lot of fintech and, you know, we're not quite a bank, but we have a lot of the same security and compliance things. That SIG is so, so important to us. And having a roadmap. I found a education is really, really a big part of it of the security experts, right. Because this is somewhat newer technology. Even though it's been in use at Google for a long time the regulator's, the compliance people, don't totally understand it, right. So you have to have a way to explain to them what's going on. So things like, open policy agent, something that we've adopted, helps us explain what's going on in our system. Once they get it, they're like, this is awesome and our end users can now, really, our end users, meaning the people that use QuickBooks and TurboTax can really trust that we have those guardrails in place. >> At Aqua, it's a huge concern from a lot of our customers. Many of whom, coming from that kind of finance industry. That they're coming to us and saying, well, how can I be PCI compliant or GDPR. How do I manage these requirements with my container based stack, with my Cloud Native stack. That's why there is this huge ecosystem quite a lot of effort around security, compliance, policy. >> It feels very much like it's two problems rolled into one. First, how do you make sure that data is secure in these things? Secondly, how do you effectively and responsibly communicate that to a regulator, who expects to be taken on a tour of a data center when they show up on site? (people laughing) I checked, they won't let you. >> There are definitely two sets of security people in my experience. There are a set of people who care about how will I get attacked. How will breaches happen. And there are other people who go, I have a checklist and I need to check the boxes in the checklist, tell me how. Sometimes those two things overlap, but not always. >> All right, Liz, lot of updates, as always. Jeff, I really appreciate your commentary there. Well, there's the paradox of choice but we have a lot of customers out there and therefore we do. (people chuckling) Any highlights you want to share with our audience? >> I think one thing that happens every year is we see more. Well, we saw Kubernetes graduate, I think, early last year, end of the previous year. Now we've got six projects into graduation. From my perspective, that says something about how mature this whole set of projects, this whole platform is becoming. Because graduation is a pretty high bar. Not least in terms of the number of end users that have to be using it in production. This is solid technology. >> Yeah, any highlights from you? >> I think, like we might have touched on a little bit this morning. But I think that usually the technologies that where you're facing the big problems is pretty obvious which one to use, right. Like serverless, you're going to go look at something like Knative or whatnot. Functions as a service. There's some open fast projects, whatnot, like that. SDO services mesh is another one where it's getting mature and it's getting to the point where you can have these ubiquitous service meshes throughout it. So, those are the areas that we're most looking at right now. >> Great, all right. Well, Liz and Jeff, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for all the work you do on the Oversight Committee and appreciate you sharing the updates with our community. >> Thank you for having us. >> Thank you. >> For Cory Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman. We'll be back more, with theCUBE here at KubeCon + CloudNativeCon 2019. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> live from Anaheim, California. It's the queue covering nutanix dot next twenty nineteen. Brought to you by Nutanix. >> Welcome back, everyone to the cubes. Live coverage of dot Next at NUTANIX. We're here in Anaheim, California. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight were joined by Wendy M. Pfeiffer. She is the chief information officer at Nutanix. Thank you so much for coming on the Cube. Wendy, thank you for having me. And this is not your first time you this year. A Cube alum. >> I am a Cube alum. It's so much fun. It's kind of weird, though. We're inside of this Cuban outside of us is all the action in the Exposition Hall is kind of crazy and cool. >> It is that there's a lot of energy here. I want to start our conversation by taking you back in time to nineteen eighties. You growing up in Silicon Valley, you notice an advertisement in the newspaper that dead tree medium NASA wants ideas on how to organize its dashboard. Better for astronauts. Yeah, >> So they had a program called CD T I cockpit displays of traffic information and they were looking for innovative ideas to make what was really a very small display provide information for the shuttle astronauts as they were re entering the atmosphere. And so, if you can imagine coming back into the atmosphere, it very high speed. And there was concern that there would be a traffic in the area. Regular airplanes flying, you know, relatively much slower. And so how could the same air traffic displays that were used for aviators be sort of modified to give real time information? Teo the astronauts, I will tell you that I never contributed much to that project, but I discovered large scale computer systems. And I just love the idea of these things large networks, large computers on just the through the vast interconnectedness of things. And so that got me interested in technology, whereas before I thought I was interested in science and math. And it turns out, of course, there's some great synergy among those topics. >> So So the internship at NASA is what propelled your interest and really, what launched your career in technology? Yes. Now you are the CEO of Nutanix. This this amazing company thiss startup That's now billion dollars with the market cap in multiple billions of dollars. Yes. So talk a little bit about your experience as CEO and what and what in what you're hearing, particularly at this dot next show. Yeah, I think >> one of the things that's happening is we're all in the midst of a huge transformation in terms of how digital technology affects business and empowers and enables business and as CEOs were right in the middle of that Wei have. Many of us have tons of legacy equipment and things from vendors, but we also have this desire for leading digital transformation in our companies. And so companies like Nutanix and there aren't many companies like Nutanix, but technologies like ours bridge that gap. We can run the legacy workloads in on premise data centers on pick a vendor's hardware. But we can also run the same work loads on our operating system in public clouds. And so it's kind of the best of both worlds, and it bridges thes two worlds that CEOs have been struggling to bridge, and it does so in a way that doesn't require us to re train our people or find, you know, a small team of rocket scientists who are, you know, worth more than the GDP of small countries. So we're able Teo, actually execute. Still keep the lights on. Still do the the old school things that we need to do but also operate with excellence at that more modern end of the technology spectrum. That's huge. And I'm hearing that from so many folks all around the show, whether it's, you know, people who are responsible for infrastructure or Dev Ops kind of crosses all of those bridges. And and as Nutanix, the CEO, I get to represent how any company like ours a billion and a half dollars publicly traded company, can use technology to enable itself, because I use our technology to do all the things we need to do as a company. >> But that's exactly just what you're talking about. That balance that these companies need to strike with thinking about the maintenance, thinking about the storage, thinking about the protection, but then also thinking in a much more visionary in strategic way about how we really transform our business and get our and get the work done that we need to get done. Can you talk a little bit about the fact that these consumer technologies have really leapfrog the thie enterprise vendors and sort of embarrassing it, frankly, should be for these big technology behemoth that they haven't done more to make cooler, sleeker technologies? >> Absolutely. Oh, my gosh, this is my favorite topic. And it's why I have my smart here. So on this smartphone, this is a is an apple phone on this smartphone. I have a ton of applications and a ton of functionality, and you know, so I have Facebook on my smartphone, right? And I love Facebook. >> But when I >> downloaded and I started using Facebook, I didn't say, you know Oh my gosh, fall. Now I have my social media application. So there's no way I could use Twitter or Instagram or anything else because my standard is Facebook. And that's the only thing I'm going to use. No, no, no. I have a multitude of APS and I used them as I choose when I want to, in the way that I want Teo, those abs inherit things from this platform. They have access to my contact data. They understand my location if I allow them tio etcetera. So all of those things are unconsciously in what is actually a phone. Now try to get your desk phone to do that right? It doesn't. And yet in the enterprise space, we have vendors who are selling us for millions of dollars, desk phones, and those were supposed to be as performance delightful, interesting as this device. And then we have laptop computers and we have desktop computers. None of those things is even a third as interesting, engaging, useful and easy to use as this consumer attack, which, by the way, is a lot less expensive. I spend millions of dollars on a V audio visual room systems of conferencing technology, whereas when I go home I can se teoh Amazon or Google. Hey, you know Amazon. Show me my my shows. You know I can I can I can ask for any show I want to watch on TV. When I downloaded Pokey Mongo, I love playing video games and games. When I downloaded Pokemon go on my phone. I >> didn't have to >> watch, you know, five five minute video snippets to teach me how to install the application. Within minutes, I was, you know, catching all the Pokemon I could what in what is really a very complex application that also includes augmented reality. And so I think it's time that first of all the vendors who sell to us, who are so used to that every three years, the enterprise license agreement is renewed. Or, you know, Hey, we're a pick something, you know, a one hardware vendors shop. So we that's what we standardize on that is doing two things. One, they're killing their own industry, and they're also killing. They're they're ruining. It is ability to deliver and to be useful and transformative. Two companies way and it way also have to demand better way. Have to stop buying that Dunc. And we have to start finding ways whether we have to build it ourselves or using machine learning tools to train the machine on how to do these things that that enterprise it cos don't deliver to us. And we also need to look for vendors like Nutanix that build that bridge that allow us to stop worrying about Oh my gosh, You know, we've got to make this legacy thing work with this new thing. We don't have to worry about that so much anymore. And now we can focus on this user experience The interaction design what we might do within an ecosystem That is our own unique companies and our own unique set of systems and also ultimately allowing our people, which is what companies are made up of allowing our people to to have the experience that they want tohave, just like we do with our own devices. I can choose how I want to interact with this thing, and I can turn it off if I don't want to use it. >> So so much of what you're talking about is really about getting companies and then the leaders of these companies to think differently. And that is the biggest managerial challenge. And it's a challenge when you're in sales. And so how do you How do you approach that problem? Because it because you've really laid it out so clearly we are used, Teo, so much intuitiveness and ease and beauty in the technology that we use in our personal lives. And then we come to work way put up with a lot of junk. >> We do, right? I mean, like, I know you're not saying anything out loud, but I know you. You're agree without you here with your laptop on the table there. You know, first of >> all, our work forces are changing. Generally, we keep talking, at least in circles that I sit in about, you know, the millennials are entering the work force. No. You know, the Millennials and Jen Zy are already make up almost half of our workforce today and will be at that somewhere around. I think it's seventy percent by twenty, twenty five of the workforce, so >> they're already here. Those >> folks already have a different relationship with technology than my generation did my generation. And I'm a Magen axe, I think. Yeah. Um so my my hub to Exactly So the big >> hair A my generation. >> I >> watched the birth of some of these consumer technologies, but this next couple of generations grew up with him already in place. And so they don't even think about the fact that this is technology. This is dependent, just is just part of them. And so I think we need Thio, Throw off the old filters and get out of the way. It's a lot more about choice and self service and freedom and flexibility and a mixed portfolio. And there are so many ways to educate ourselves about those things if if we don't naturally have that instinct. But it starts with diverse thinking, diverse tools. I believe that whatever you know, PC Mac laptop tablet mobile device that you're comfortable with your company should enable you to use. And you should use the applications that that makes the most sense to that make you the most productive. And then it's his job or it's leaderships job to create that that really rich ecosystem, where those applications and tools have the nutrients that they need and the capabilities that they need to work together well, understanding how to create and maintain that ecosystem mean what is an ecosystem? It's this sort of happy accident of all sorts of creatures at various levels in the in the pyramid coming together and figuring out a way to cohabit and to survive and then, hopefully to thrive. And so no one can get too important. No one voice no one species. No one layer can be outsized compared to the others because of So what do you have? Well, you have a species collapse. They run out of the fuel that helps them to thrive. And so I think, of course, our planet at a macro level is an example of that. But our company's our families, our neighborhoods. All of those things are micro examples that that matched the macro and are dependant on the same laws of physics and science and so on in order to thrive in to function. >> Well, you're talking you You just highlighted the importance of diversity. And and you made this comment about No one person can get two important or no one part of the species. In fact, if you look at the tech landscape Ueno, who's too important and it's the pros who are who are running the show in a lot of ways. Still, I want to hear from you as a senior leader, a female senior leader in technology you noticed, >> and Theo the manicure. Yeah, >> but how? What? What do you see? What? Tell us what it's like. I mean, is it as bad as we hear? And, um, and and And how have you in your career overcome a lot of these challenges? And then how What do you see as your responsibility to the next generation who's coming up? >> Absolutely. So it is as bad as we hear. It's sometimes worse than we here. And I think that especially there are certain sectors of society and tech society where the bro culture that we've heard about is fully in play. What mitigates that is the human beings who make up the bro culture so often. These guys don't understand the the effect of all of them and mass, and so often they're just being natural. Many, especially start ups. The start of fuel. Silicon Valley, You know, they started with some great ideas and with some dreamers and often those those people with the great ideas and dreamers you know they are males, and what do you do? You get your buddies together. You know, when you get a little extra money, you get the next round of bodies. You invite people, you know, so >> there's a little >> bit of that syndrome that's happening. There are also wonderful incubators and fields where women are also in that start up mode, and I'm a member of the Board of Girls and Tech. We have a number of things like Way have an amplified competition that supports women, tech the entrepreneurs, so there's certainly more than just men. But the history has been that however, a lot of people talk about that For me, that's not the emphasis for me. The emphasis is on how we change our jobs and our definition of work in general. And this is so fascinating to me. >> I think we've been working for years >> and years on, you know, how do we get more women and stem and encourage girls to go through this path in school? You know, it turns out women and men are both equally interested in science and math and all those things. But the starting jobs and tech are are horrendous when it comes to matching women's interests in skills and this isthe stereo, I'm going to start stereotype here. I hate doing this, but in general terms, men tend to be able to work on things serially. They tend to have a singular focus and to appreciate the singular focus and so you can lay out a path first, your socks and your shoes and the guy will follow that, and we'LL master each step along the way. And that's that's a way that you know, it's stereotypically a lot of male brain brains. Progress for women, for female brains were multifaceted way sort of have this ability. I don't know if it's evolutionary or environment or whatever. I'm not like an expert, thank God. >> But we have this >> ability to multi task all the time. I could be, you know, holding my kid and, um, talking on the phone and, you know, making sure dinners cooking, okay. And, you know, maybe it's a business call, and I might be hiring someone or firing someone, and I'm giving equal focused attention to each very important task. And so we sort of have that that ability because we have that ability. That's the kind of job that you know. Okay, you enter college and you're taking a software development computer science, of course. And you take all computer science courses until you get that degree. And now you get your first software developer job and you sit in this little cubicle and all day long you write code. Well, you know, fine. If I've sort of have that single threaded mentality, I'm ready. All right. I guess I'm going to do this. I'm gonna Masters are >> gonna get through the layers >> of writing code as fast as I can and someday I'll rule the world or start my own company over on the female side, we say this is going to kill me. I don't want to do that. What a boring jobs. Because Because also, I'm interested in I'm interested in the Japanese language and I'm interested in design. And, you know, I love to cook. And also, you know, I'm just been working through, you know, theories of space and time and in my physics study, and to just have to focus my mind all by myself all day long in this cubicle on writing, you know, some part of a bigger program. It's not attractive. And so what we find is that women are dropping out of thes focus degree programs and they're dropping out of the early stages of technology careers. Which means that by the time you get to my stage, there is not a very few of us right, >> So you said we needed we need to change the definition of work. Yes, What does that mean? >> Well, the Millennials and Gen Z and countries that are that are very young, like some of the Eastern European countries that air, that air, just reinventing themselves. They've already done that. It's the gig economy. It's the idea that as an individual, I can choose the things I want to work on. We've tried Teo, sort of emulate that in in the agile methodologies right? I get to choose my tasks, but it's this sort of. It was taken the soul out of it. But this is really that independent contractors might be doing. You know a few things that once I might be designing shoes like one of my friends is she's she's created her own shoe company, and at the same time I might be writing code Azaz a gig for some other company. And you know what? I might also be involved in, you know, a charitable work. Or I might be volunteering at my kid's school and doing all of those things together at the same time in parallel is interesting to us. It's engaging to us. We put more. >> So how'd you do that? At your team at NUTANIX? How do you help your employees, uh, do all the things that they want to do in addition to obviously getting their work done? Yeah, well, It's always a >> balance right. One of the really important things is to create an environment of tools and technologies and processes that allow people to choose the things they want to choose. It's not always well understood. Some people say thank you. I get to use the tools I like. Other people say there's too many tools what we d'Oh. And so we try to find something down the middle for those guys. Exactly. Secondly, I hire and mentor leaders who are very diverse and open, and they're thinking so that we can constantly kind of reinvent ourselves as an I T organization. But ultimately it gets down to enabling culturally people to think differently, to raise their hand and say, You know, I am a network engineer, but I would like Tio automate this thing over here or, you know, I Yes, I'm a systems engineer, but I'd like to deploy the network, just allowing them to get out of their comfort zone and to experiment. It's also really important to understand the balance of it. People who choose it love engineering and love technology, but we'LL also love process and interaction, and so we're already this mash up of personality types. And, you know, I would say more multifaceted you are, the more you're able to play multiple sports or or have multiple skills or play offense and defense, then the more able you are to thrive in the new World in the new economy. And sometimes it's just finding those mavericks Or, you know, I like to say I'm a little civil, like, you know, I've >> got a little personalities and you know it. Sometimes you got >> to bring one of those personalities to the table. Sometimes you have to bring many of those personalities to the table, and it's gonna be okay for folks to do that. >> I love it. I love it. Great. Well, Wendy, thank you so much for coming on the Cube. It's always fun talking to you. Thank you. Appreciate it. I'm Rebecca Knight. You are watching the Cube. They'LL be much more to come

>> Narrator: Live from Orlando, Florida it's theCUBE. Covering Accelerate 19. Brought to you by Fortinet. >> Welcome back to theCUBE live from Fortinet Accelerate 2019. I'm Lisa Martin with Peter Burris. You can hear all the folks behind us on the show floor. There's about 4000 people here in Orlando from 40 different countries. We're pleased to welcome to theCUBE for the first time, Warren Small, the Senior Vice President of Transformation and Security at Dimension Data. Warren, thank you so much for joining Peter and me on theCUBE. >> Thank you for having me guys, it's a great pleasure. >> Lots of energy behind us, let's go ahead and start out so our viewers get a view of Dimension Data, who you guys are, what you do, where you're headquartered. >> Absolutely, so first and foremost, thank you again, for having me. Dimension Data, we're a part of NTT, headquartered out of London. Today we're a global organization with presence in every major country. As an organization, we have have eight billion dollars in revenue, and employ about 30,000 people. I'm from group security, I'm responsible for transforming our business to be more solutions and outcome focused. To help our clients with their digital aspirations. >> You're a general partner in the operational technology space with Fortinet. Tell us a little bit about the history of your partnership. >> Yeah, fantastic, that's a new focus area for us, absolutely, but Dimension Data has been a longtime partner with Fortinet across the entire security portfolio. We've made a significant investment today in being very intentional around partnering with Fortinet for operational technology because we believe fabric approach has a good ecosystem, as articulated by Ken and Patrice this morning, around the partners they've sought to help clients address this operational technology risk. >> One of the things, I think it was Ken talked about this morning, is this notion of how the edge is going to be distinguished by different levels of trust. A little bit of background, at Wikibon, we talk about how digital transformation is the process by which a business institutionalizes and operational it's the role in data as an asset plays in it's business. So we talk about data zones having a zone of data proximate to whatever event is going to take place. Ken talked about almost a zone of trust proximate to where an event's going to take place in OT. You're talking to an enormous number of customers about outcomes and in trying to match technology to those outcomes. How does that notion of trust being one of the primary determinants design elements for thinking about OT? >> I think incredible question, thank you so much. I think there two ways to answer the question. We have a philosophy around being secure by design, and by nature, being secure by design, there's inherent trust, because we understand the clients' business outcome. Today, we're faced with an incredible amount of innovation. I think we all want innovation, everything that we do. One of the things I keep talking to my family about is how easy my job has become through innovation. Whether that's booking an airline ticket and downloading a ticket but now we talk about the credibility of the airline. We talk about the credibility of the airline industry. We talk about the credibility of the transportation industry. It's not just the tickets. So when we're talking about the service, we're talking about the integrity of the airline. It's all those pixels that are integrated. You know, nobody talks to you today about an OT outage when your bags are delayed. Nobody's talking to you today about an airline delay because there's been some water leak. An IOT sensor has detected the water leak and now they're trying to get emergency services to come in, investigate the problem. I think that's the challenge you're faced with. Inherent in the secure by design being a philosophy with all business stakeholders, business now have an appreciation that security is no longer that fear factor. It's now an enabler of the business outcome that we want to deliver to our clients who are crying out for services. >> I might even say it's part of the brand, right? >> Small: Absolutely. >> You go back to systems theory and you talk about a competent interface And a competent interface is performance, it's trustworthy, it behaves as designed, it's monitorable, it's all those other things and in many respects as we move to a digital business, the fundamental tenant of competency is tied into how well the network retains a security profile so that the business can take on new options but serve customers the way it's expected to. >> Small: Absolutely. I like telling my colleagues is when we see some of our clients that are either in the oil and gas industry or critical infrastructure, when you go a plant, they always talk about fatalities. They always talk about how many incidents they have, it's that real. In cyber-security today, in this digital attacks, you don't see it but once you automate a system or you automate part of a plant, there could be some fatalities. I read an article recently about how you can manipulate data that says to a patient that they aren't really sick. I'm a bit torn, because if I go to a doctor, I want to be told if something wrong with me. Maybe I don't want to know, but in reality, I do want to know so I can take action. That's the challenge we're faced with today is that it's uncertainty of manipulation. This is uncertainty today because as we connect these two worlds to create better efficiencies or to provide a better service to the patient all of a sudden is it creating more risks. There are many stories I could share with you that told to me or either our clients share with us of the real life problems if an IOT device is not protected and at most times there's a device that's connected that nobody knows about. >> How do you lead that conversation about security away from fear and more to this is how we could help you stop being reactive and actually be proactive? >> Today, as a team, we talk about innovation. Today we talk about what if. We talk about the value of the way I do my job today. I'm collaborating, the other day I did a count of just a number of apps that I use to make a phone call to have a meeting with somebody. I probably have about seven and you could count the same. Whether it's vendor X or OEM Y but I have an innate level of trust that that vendor, that OEM, that's provided the application to me is trustworthy. I download it and I get on with my meeting. It's very much the same the way I communicate and collaborate with my peers, whether it's internally or externally. I no longer live with the fear that someone may steal my data because I know there's a process in place and we put mechanisms in place to make sure that critical data cannot be shared. Much the same with other aspects of technology. If we have the conversation of the value that can be derived if there is integrity. I look around me and it was interesting. I got into the elevator here and it's a pretty old elevator, right? But there's a level of trust that it was certified and that it is certified, and it's validated, that it works. That's the only trust I have, because for those that know me, I'm pretty scared of elevators. Claustrophobic, right? >> Using you as a proxy for a lot of users because Dimension Data is deep into a number of global 500 companies, global 2000 companies. Do you think executives really understand that crucial relationship between their digital business, their brand, and the role that security networking, specifically security, and secure networking will impact their brand and their business? >> I think they're starting to appreciate the impact. I think it's much in the face now. The numerous attacks that are out there. In fact, I was saying to some of my colleagues and some of my peers, on Friday morning, I was in a conference call and it was the first time I was meeting an individual and about three months before that I had spoken to his CIO, the employee's CIO, and I'd spoken to him about his challenges and I was articulating the value of his brand because they make critical components of motor vehicles. And we were talking about what if there's a malfunction. So, it then got down to this individual, and we had a conversation, and I said to him it's interesting what you shared with me, because it almost sounded like I was having a conversation with you, but you were talking to me, so that your CIO asked you to take this action. It wasn't, it's just become a business problem that's been discussed at the boardroom level. I think if you live in the US, like myself, I've now become a user of this thing called Amazon. My wife's a more frequent user myself, but we rely that a parcel is delivered at a certain time. And we rely on the fact that if Amazon tells us it's going to be shipped and you will receive it, my nine year old, he wants to have his Pokemon cards arrive on Friday, not on Saturday. So, we have to rely that there's integrity in what they are sharing with us, and that they have to rely that their partners have integrity in their systems, and they have to start demonstrating that these are secure systems. These are secure manufacturing plants. These are secure supply chain plants. >> What does that C-suite, and I'm glad you brought that question up, Peter, because I'm always curious, this can't be a conversation anymore at the network security level. >> Or just at the network security level. >> Exactly, it's so pervasive, right? From a C-suite's perspective, what are the outcomes that that CIO has to deliver back to the business. You mentioned healthcare a minute ago, and obviously that's an industry that affects every single person, whether the data is true or not, it affects all of us, but that CIO has to deliver outcomes, whether it's a hospital, or an E-commerce spender like an Amazon, has to deliver to me what their customers need. How is Dimension Data and Fortinet helping that CIO meet her or his business level objectives so the business is competitive, successful, et cetera? >> Absolutely. So a little bit about Dimension Data. We go to market with practices, so we have a digital business solutions practice, and we partner very heavily with our digital business solution's practice. We work with clients around ideation. We work with clients around how they're going to transform their business, so when we talk about smart healthcare, what does that really mean to a user? From a pharmaceutical perspective, from a hospital perspective, how does that really help? We put a number of use cases where we demonstrate to clients what's the value of providing better service to someone when they are first impacted or first injured? If we can diagnose, we can detect, and we can communicate back to be it the hospital or healthcare provider, that's the service that has high integrity. I'm going to subscribe to a healthcare provider or a healthcare practitioner that subscribes to a smart healthcare philosophy. I'm a traveling father, I'm a traveling husband, but the value for me is knowing that I'm always connected, and the services I subscribe to by providers have integrity, and that my wife doesn't have to provide the details on a continuous basis to multiple providers. I had a very emotional conversation once to an individual who shared the impact of sharing data on multiple instances with multiple providers. It wasn't that they had to share, but it was the delayed cause by having to share the information on multiple instances, and then the associated risk. I always talk about I gave you the example about sharing. We talk about, I tell my 13 year old, I say to him, what don't you want me to know about you so be cautious what you share. >> One quick question for you. We're talking increasingly about critical infrastructure, essential infrastructure. We're having more conversations in theCUBE, but it's not broadly diffusing into the general population. A lot of that, one of the reasons for that, is that people believe it's going to be unbelievably expensive. But it seems to me, and this is what I'm testing, that an investment in updating critical infrastructure so that you got better security, you got more network ability, you're using technology more appropriately, will also have the benefit that you can increase the optimization of the resources that are associated with that infrastructure. When you work with clients, do you see that kind of ameliorating trade off where yes we have to invest in these things, but there is a derivative benefit that we're going to increase the optimization of them? >> Absolutely. I'll answer that in a number of different ways. But the first one is efficiency and that's what everybody is driving towards. Can we get greater efficiency by integrating these two worlds? But as you said, what they don't realize is you can't just connect these two worlds without making sure that they are capable of being integrated and that's the first stance we take with a number of clients irrespective of the industry that they're in is what do you know and what do you think you know? Because if you have an understanding and you have a design of what needs to be enabled, what needs to be remediated, and what needs to be changed, you can move a lot faster, and you know who to engage in terms of partnerships. You know, I was talking about that example earlier. It was absolutely a case where the client knew immediately, if we connect these two worlds the devices that facilitate the connection need to be replaced. Another example was a client was implementing a software defined network for all their plants. What they didn't realize was the technology would not enable that software defined networking. So without a plan which we've been extremely intentional in building what we call a cyber-security advisory for operational technology networks is to help our clients with their design and that plan and methodology to go and execute. >> Last question in about 30 seconds, no pressure. Lot of growth, lot of potential in the market that Ken Xie, Patrice Perche talked about this morning during the keynote. What excites you about this momentum that their business growth is carrying into 2019? >> I think a number of ways to answer but 30 seconds, what I'm grateful for is how Ken Xie and Patrice articulated it. It's all about education. If we have the right people, we can move faster. Second is that there's immense value in the integration of their fabric network. We see a lot of value in the client conversations that we have today is what do we have that we can leverage? How can we make it better as opposed to replace? That'll give us the ability. Patrice mentioned a stat of 50% of organizations have unfilled roles and I think sometimes it may be greater because it depends on who we're measuring, right? And in what roles in these organizations. But the potential for us is incredible as a manage security service provider and a platform organization that we have the teamwork in Fortinet that allows us to co-invest in the platform that we are building to deliver better outcomes to our clients. >> Warren, it's been a pleasure to have you on theCUBE with me this afternoon. We're looking forward to hearing more great news from Dimension Data and Fortinet over the next year and years to come! >> Thank you so much, lovely to be here. >> Our pleasure. For Peter Burris, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE. (tech music)

>> Live from Las Vegas, it's theCube, covering AWS re:Invent 2018. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services, Intel, and their ecosystem partners. >> Well welcome back here at the Sands expos. We continue our coverage here on theCube of AWS re:Invent. We said about 40,000 attendees this week. We're just off the show floor, it is been jam packed, with a lot of energy, all day today. Justin Warren and John Walls we're joined up by Ramin Sayar who is the President, CEO of Sumo Logic. Ramin, how are you are doing. >> Good, thanks for having me back today. >> You bet, always good to have you back on theCube. You made some news, had an announcement yesterday that kind of takes your AWS linkage or partnership to a new level. Tell us a little bit about that. >> Yeah, so in short, you know we've been partnering with Amazon for well over eight years. We've been born and bred in the Cloud as a multi tenant service. And, over the years we've been working on a variety of ways to improve some operational best practices, not just innovations and products, and that's led us to really push Amazon to do more in security. Because, the security, posture, practices, understanding in the cloud world, is fundamentally different than that on prem in the traditional world. >> Yeah. So one of the key points of the announcement was some efforts that we're continuing with Amazon around security and bringing cloud first security posture, best practices as well as integrations, some things we've already announced, as well some things I may hypothetically be announced tomorrow. >> Okay, So tell us about that discussion. Alright, you say its been going on for some time. The need to bring a higher level of awareness or concern, however you want to word it, to security in the public cloud. I mean, how's that evolved and then where's that going to go? >> Well I guess, there's two ways looking at it. You know, one is, its really centered on the fact that there's a big movement right now for the lift and shift of workloads to the cloud. >> Yeah. >> And you can't bring along all the baggage that's associated with these workloads, because you're modernizing these applications, and fundamentally it requires different ways of instrumenting, collecting, analyzing and last and definitely not least, the tsunami of data that's being generated because of these distribute applications. You can't take the old way of writing rules to presuppose events and security issues in this new world. So we've been pushing Amazon really, really hard to build practices. So a competency was one of the things we first started with them, right? And that competency led us to understand it's not just about guard duty, it's not just about some simple best practices, but how we bring the broader community together. So, we're taking this on the road with them, bringing the MSPs or managed service providers, as well as managed security service providers together and building this integrated practice to them, and with them, so they can take it out as a channel. What are you expecting people to get out of this. So when you've this roadshow and you've taken this show on the road and you've got all this MSPs to sign up to this way of doing things. Where do you see them taking from where they are today and where they will end up at the end of this. >> Yes as simply put, managed service providers or managed security providers, are one vehicle. >> A lot of this is actually, teaching the practitioners, in terms of CSO's, security operations, and security analysts. Like what should you consider, what should you use in the cloud. So it's not just about VPC flow logs, it's not just about AWS config or guard duty, but the combination of what the Amazon does or AWS does, at the infrastructure level, coupled with what Sumo does at the security analytics level is what delivers that best in class cloud service for security. >> Right. >> And so it's educating 'em on that first. >> Second piece is, really pushing that responsibility not just as a security operations or a security analyst team, but upstream into the development teams. And so that's part of this whole notion that Sumo's been aggressively pushing called DevSecOps. It's a responsibility everybody in the organization, not just the people downstream that get the hangover when a breach happens. >> Right. >> Right? >> Feels like we've been talking about that idea of embedding bending security into, well, security is everyone's issue, and that we need to move it upstream, and you shift it left as a lot of people like to say. So, where we you think we are on that journey? So we've been talking about it for a little while. It feels like we still actually right at the beginning of that kind of movement. >> So, it's funny you say that, 'cause we're thinking about this before this event and categorically we see in born in the clouds types of companies, they have a security first principle mind already. And so, naturally as, they just look at it as another data source that they have to manage, not as a burden. And so, that's a difference with traditional security companies, the enterprise, who feel like, oh great my developers are going over there and now it's a burden for me to manage that. So, I think from the born and bred cloud perspective, adoption is super high. The ones that are doing the lift and shift now, we're trying to get the CSO's to be the champions. So we enter a lot of times there versus just the devops students. And so as a result, that's helping us educate the CSO's to take it down to the sock or the analyst so they can understand, what should I even use with Amazon and how does Sumo support that? >> Yeah, so it sounds like a lot of these more traditional companies are doing, in the same way that the cloud has changed the way developers actually write code and use infrastructure, it sounds like the security practices that have been born in the cloud are actually starting to make their way back up or upstream if you will into this more traditional companies and they're cloudifying the way they run things. Which is an interesting parallel to the what we're seeing with the infrastructure where it's becoming more hybrid. So we're kind of getting this hybrid security model of the old way of doing things and the cloud way of doing things. >> Yeah, and I think the interesting piece of that is, it's profoundly changing the operating model. Right, historically all this teams been siloed. They use their silo tools for security over here, for monitoring over there, for troubleshooting over here, right, for building and release systems over there. And this new way of deploying, building, running, securing workloads and more importantly cloud services now, it's fundamentally broke down those barriers. And so by nature, what's it done is, forced those team to either come together to collaborate, in a lot of cases what we say in accounts is also, there's a single throat to choke. Person that's owning that service owns and end to end. Right, and so our platform uniquely helps all those different constituents across the organization really share and collaborate, but also rely on one vendor, and one platform that spans not just obviously here with Amazon and Amazon Web Services, but also GCP, Azure, and 40% of the data we collect every day comes from on prem. We give them that single platform that spans everything that they need. >> What is the, if there is a fundamental problem that when somebody who has, they look at their migration and they say, okay public cloud that's where we're going, from a security stand point is it that, they are going to a space that they don't have total control over or they are going to a space, now this is the way we used to do it, and now you're going to, you're coming at it from a different side. I don't know if it that's by-end, I mean what is the kind of like the-- >> So I think it comes down to three things. I think one is mindset change. So we look for progressive CSO's that believe in the vision of fundamentally doing things different. Two is debunking the myth. And I say that because SIM has been a dirty word for years. Useless services and technology and vendors that have been pimping SIM for years and have not delivered on the value. >> Don't minse words, tell me what you think Ramin. >> No, been all seriousness, and so we have a job to clean up that dirty work. So with the cloud SIM and what we're doing on top of Amazon in supporting other cloud providers, we're trying to make it sexy again. But more importantly, make it real, deliver value through our cloud SIM. And the third is, we're trying to break down the silos. It's not just a security operations schemes anymore. And they understand that, in order for them to have that holistic control, because at the end of the day it's about control, they need to have accountability upstream and they need to be partnering with the devops teams. And so that's the value we bring because the devops team, the cyber liability engineers, the tech ops, platform engineering are all using Sumo. So now we can connect the CSO to them and they can have one unified way. Share it lights tiered model for data, they can have access control, predictable cost and then more importantly going forward allows them to start analyze data, different values, different sets as they need to through a consumption model. >> You say you're trying the SIM sexy again, which is an interesting way of putting it. What are you seeing customers using Sumo logic for that really gets your intent? What's something you think would be a thing that people here in this show should really pay attention to? Why should people use it? >> So are you a gamer? >> I have been known to game on occasion. >> Do you play Pokemon or Fortnite? >> No, I keep getting pestered to get Fortnite, but no, I'm an old schooler. I like Borderlands 2. >> So you do, okay. So I'll give two different contrasting examples in the gaming industry for example. So Pokemon, guess who their average age user is? >> About eight? >> No. >> No? >> Kids. Young kids. And so for them it's about protecting identity. Right, and protecting privacy of it's users, kids for parents. So we help them with privacy and controls. You compare that with Fortnight. We help fortify Fortnight because Fortnight needs to look at the metadata, what's going on in the game. Right, they're looking at all the actions from the chat, from the text, from the things that were unplanned in the game, to get a sense of how the real game experience is. They're both securing but in different ways. You compare/contrast that to outside of gaming, media, online retailers, what do we help them with? They have audit responsibilities because they take payments for PCI. They have health care responsibilities, because HIPAA compliance. They have regulatory responsibilities with GDPR. Right? And so we help all of them with the audit and compliance, but also we give them the threat and investigation capabilities when and if they have a breach or when they have an audit issue. >> So you are not a Pokemon player? >> I played Pokemon Go for a while, then I was like, I'm too busy hosting theCube. I don't have time for that. >> Ramin, thanks for being with us, we appreciate the story and wish you continued success. Sumo Logic just about 50 yards from our spot here on the floor, drawing a lot of attention in your booth. So, congratulations on that as well. >> Thanks for having me again, great seeing you guys. >> You bet. Alright, back with more here on theCube. We're at AWS re:Invent in Las Vegas. (soft alternative music)

(Caribbean music) >> Narrator: Live, from San Juan, Puerto Rico. It's theCUBE, covering Blockchain Unbound. Brought to you by Blockchain Industries. >> Hello, welcome back everyone. I'm John Furrier, co-host of theCUBE. Exclusive coverage here in Puerto Rico for Blockchain Unbound, it's a global conference where a lot of the leaders are coming together. It's our second day of wall-to-wall coverage. Talking to all the top people: government officials, entrepreneurs, investors, and tons of great action here. Our next guest is Marcus Levin who's the co-founder of XYO Network, xyo.network is the URL. Interesting opportunity really built from the ground up. No outside funding, although it does some interesting things with their community. Great IoT example, great use of the cloud, great example of how real entrepreneurs are working with crypto and blockchain to actually grow. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, John. >> So, tell me a little bit about what you guys do. Take a minute to explain to the audience what XYO Network is, how did you get here, what is it all about? >> Yeah, sure. So, XYO Network is the world's first decentralized location oracle. "Oracle" means data input into smart contracts. Now you have the problem that a lot of data sources are centralized and hackable or spoofable. So, if you make a bet, for example, you need to look at the results of the bet at a website, the website could be hacked, it could collude with someone to provide wrong data. The same problem exists with GPS. GPS is easily spoofable and hackable, like during the Pokemon Go craze, for example, all the kids just downloaded GPS spoofing apps, they get all the rare Pokemons. Or, allegedly the Iranians took down an American drone a few years back sending up a wrong GPS signal. The drone just landed. So, because of that, you can't do transactions based on location data. Today, most applications for location, GPS location, are navigational but not transactional. We solve this by providing a decentralized location data or network. We do this though IoT devices, mobile phone apps, and other types of partnerships. We are around since 2012. Started as an IoT company which provided location beacons, we call it XY Findit. We have about a million of them out there, and they can recognize each other's location. It's like us two taking a selfie together, we print out two copies, put our signatures on there. When we leave each other, we can prove that were here together. And it's the same thing with those devices. Our own devices but also with partnerships we build this mobile app distributors and IoT companies. What can you do with this? You could, for example, do payment up and delivery for e-commerce. So, you could put a chip, a small chip like an RFID chip into Amazon packaging tape. Once the package arrives at your doorstep, or even in your house, the payment gets triggered. It works by the doorbell, your Tesla in the driveway, your neighbor's cell phone, any type of connected device recognizing that the package is there. The payment automatically gets triggered. One third of Americans experienced porch theft in 2016. You don't know if it was a UPS driver, for example, scanning the package but taking it, or your neighbor took the package, or someone random came by. This way, you can prevent porch theft, or you can discover it. Or you could make sure your kids arrived safely at school, they arrived there with their friends and they took the path you wanted them to take. Or hotel review sites, for example, have the problem that they lose their users because they don't believe that the reviews are real anymore. But if you could prove someone flew from San Diego, that's where we're based, to Puerto Rico, has stayed at this hotel for tonight, and then flew back and wrote the review about it, suddenly you have a location-verified review. So, that's all today, but in the world, in five to ten years, full of AI, robots, self-driving cars, drones, smart cities, you need transactional location data and nobody's providing that today and we want to be the center of the future. >> Awesome. So, that's super-exciting, I got to ask you about the IoT piece because, do you need physical devices out there? Are you going to be deploying sensors? Are you leveraging pre-existing infrastructure? I love that selfie example. I can imagine we do a selfie, share it, it's a location-based opportunity. The phone's got location base. How do you guys interface with this? How does it work? >> Right now the network builds on top of our own devices. We are around since 2012, as I said, so we have a large network already. We are an existing company, it's a little rare in the blockchain space. >> Yeah. >> And we build partnerships now with IoT companies like certain light bulb division company, or fridges, all connected devices, mobile app distributors. >> So, you're providing your customers the IoT device folks who are proliferating out there. >> Yeah, we put our code basically out there. We can-- >> Open source? >> Open source, yeah. >> Okay. >> And you can plug it as an SDK into, let's say, your mobile app. Or you can use it as a monetization tool as well, because you earn tokens as you verify location, and this data is part an answer, and so you could earn XYO tokens, as you become-- We call them "sentinels", location verification device in our network. >> So, how do you guys tie this together on the token side? So, you reward, what behavior do you reward with a token? >> There are four components in our network. There's the sentinel, as I spoke about, which are the IoT devices or mobile phones which verify the location. Then you have bridges which relay the data. They relay it into something we call the archivist, which is a distributed computer system, if you are familiar with storage here in this space, for example, or the old system, like Sentient home from Berkeley, it works like that. So, the data's on people's personal computers. And then we have something we call the diviner algorithm, which provides the answers. It works like mining. So, you might want to ask, "Where's my package right now?" And the question gets sent to the network, a bunch of diviners, which works like mining, Ethereum, transactional things. A bunch of diviners will take the data from the archivist, the distributed computer system, and try to find the best answer and try to find as close as possible the consensus as they can. >> What about spoofing? I mean, people might want to spoof the location. >> Yes. >> How do you prevent spoofing? >> Yeah, that's a good question. So, we two could collude pretty easily. But if this entire room of people is who you usually don't know, it's very difficult to collude. So, one of them is scale. Then we build reputation over time. So, as your answers are probable, you build reputation. For example, if all us say we are here at this hotel right now, but you say, "No, we are in Shanghai," your answer is improbable and your reputation goes down. In addition to that, we disincentivize lying-- >> You're very data-driven. >> Extremely. >> This is big time analytics. >> Extremely data-driven. >> So, what are you guys doing for analytics and what chain are you using? 'Cause performance becomes an issue. >> Yep. >> How's the plumbing work? What's the analytics look like? Take a minute to explain that. >> Yeah, it's very beautiful. We have our own chain: the XYO main chain. So, we are an oracle which plugs into any type of smart contract. You know, you have Ethereum and about 19 other coins which have smart contracts. So, we build on our chain to lower the transaction costs, transaction times, and build a more reliable network for ourselves and then it plugs into all other smart contracts. >> So, you have your own chain to manage this? >> Yes. >> So, that's one of the reasons why you, from an operational standpoint, you want to lock that down. >> Yes. >> So you can control performance. >> Exactly. >> Latency, timestamps, security, whatnot. >> Exactly, that's right. >> The openness is for the smart contracts. Is that what you're saying? >> Yeah. >> I can do any smart contract I want. >> This is basically for old site developers it's like an API, you can plug into it-- >> Got it. >> We connect the real world with the blockchain. So, right now you have very limited applications for blockchain in a lot of cases because you can't take offline things and connect them to the chain. What we allow to do is, we call it the API to the real world, where you take location data, put it into the chain and make it transactional. >> So, I got to ask you a question. This is interesting, I love this, I want to get into more of the token sale and what you guys are doing raising money. In the IoT world, certainly with cloud computing, the big debate is, do you move compute to the edge where the data is, or do you move the data back to the centralized cloud? Here, since you're decentralized with the IoT device, is the data coming back to your central network, or-- >> No, it's not. >> Where is the processing at? At the edge? What's the edge equation? Explain that. >> So, everything is decentralized. We believe that our company doesn't need to necessarily exist in a few years and the network will live on and grow as we grow the community, so the community is very important to us. The devices are decentralized, you own your cell phone. The data storage is decentralized. So, you can define, like, 3% of my personal computing power goes to this, for example, you earn XYO tokens. The mining is decentralized like any mining is decentralized today, so us as a company, once people start to build on the platform, we don't need to exist, which makes it beautiful, right? This is what blockchain is all about. Decentralizing and building this platform layer where people can build on top of. >> So, there's a ton of Bluetooth and GPS out there. >> Yep. >> Talk about where you guys have got your traction. I want you to take a minute to explain. We kind of went off on a tangent on some IoT rant, there, I was interested in. But I want to take it back to mainstream. >> Okay. >> There's GPS out there, you've got Bluetooth, everyone's got Bluetooth devices. So, it's not like this is massive new, it's a requirement. >> Yeah. >> You guys did some interesting things how you funded your first token sale. >> Right. >> You have customers. You've been around for how long? >> 2012. >> 2012. You've been successful. No outside capital. >> Yeah. >> So, you bootstrapped. You made things happen. Had some revenue come in. How'd you do it? Take us through that progression. >> Yeah, so we co-founders worked in various ventures together previously and one of our co-founders, the main founder I would say, Arie Trouw, he started this company in 2012, and we bootstrapped it with seven million dollars of our own cash and one and a half million in venture debt. We really believe in what we do. >> You guys put up a lot of capital. >> Yes. >> Congratulations. >> We believe in what we do. We believe in our capabilities to attract the right teams, we have an amazing team. >> That's skin in the game. >> It's skin in the game and it's actually a low-risk investment for me because I know what we are capable of. >> You are underwriting your own competence. >> Exactly, exactly. >> Okay, so, you had seven million of your own cash. Did you pass the hat around, you all kind of contributed money in, or? >> It was mostly from Arie, actually. (laughs) But we all have skin in the game there. >> So, you have a community, then you launch your idea, what happened next? >> Exactly. So, then the VCs started to come. We did some outreach, VCs started to come, they're interested in our idea, you know, they love what we do. Platform is right, quite sexy right now. In blockchain we are a platform and you can build a lot on top of it. We pushed off the VCs and we said we want to take community money first. The reason is, we believe in building this strong community of evangelists, people who believe in us, who want to code with us. We went to all the developer conferences, not to, like, investor conferences, or something like that. And, so, we marketed to about 2,300 people, our token sale and a little under 500 people put some Ethereum into our token sale and 95% were under 5 ETH. That was a very global community. >> Was that a utility token sale? >> Yes. >> Outside the US, 'cause there's credited investors involved, or what was the-- >> It's clearly a utility token, because you can build on top of it. Last weekend, the city of San Diego and 120 hackers, a IoT company, were in our office to build on top of our chain, traffic flow and parking solutions for the city of San Diego. So, it's clearly a utility token but because of the uncertain regulatory environment we are actually running it like it's a security, so, we have a Reg A, Reg D, Reg S, whatever, we have 115 different jurisdictions we look at, I spoke during the whole process, I'm not lying, it's-- >> That's a lot of work. >> Yeah. 23 lawyers I spoke with. It's a lot of hours with lawyers on the phone. The most aggressive on of them, she suggested to me a structure with no taxes but 20% prison potential, I think. (laughs) On the other side-- >> It's a good cause. You're doing it right. So you spent a lot of money to make sure that your community was involved. >> Yes. And they weren't throwing a lot of money, like they're millionaires, they're like, let's throw a thousand dollars? >> Yep. >> That kind of numbers. >> Yes, exactly. >> So, it's not like you're breaking the bank but they feel ownership. >> Absolutely. If you look at our telegram channel-- >> And you've raised, what, a million, two million, three million, from that? >> One point seven. >> From the community? >> Only community, those 400 people. We had it open for five to six days. We closed it down. We didn't take any money anymore. And since yesterday, I started talking with institutionals again and now we are a sexy story so now they come again, right? (laughs) >> Platforms are sexy. >> Exactly. >> We know, we have one, too. >> (laughs) That's awesome. Love your project. >> Well, the thing about platforms is that, as you know, we talked about last night, is that the platform wars and the platform entrepreneurial thinking has radically changed. In the old days, it was, I've got a platform and I'm going to monetize my platform for my application. Look at Facebook. >> Right. >> They monetize their platform data for advertisers, not users. I am a Google search engine, I need to make the best search result so I can get better advertising. And search results, thats a part. But the new order is the platform value goes to the users or customers. >> Right, right. That's right. >> So not... >> We are not rent-seeking. >> This is an open model with platforming. >> 100% open. There is a lot of the platforms are rent-seeking, where a certain percent of each transaction goes to the company or to some founders or something. We don't have that at all. So, what we do, for every token we sell, we allocate one to the company and after the token sale there is not going to be ever more XYO tokens ever again. And we use our portion to build this network but we don't take any fees or anything there. >> How do you make money? >> Building partnerships with companies, helping them to build on top of the chain, building the community. >> At some point you need to take a small cut of something, right? >> Yeah, if we own half the tokens, hopefully there is some value. >> They could be-- okay, so you'll get the token opportunity? >> Yes. >> So, on the security token, do the investors, the community and now token holders, is that an equity security token, so they own the company through the tokens, right? Non-dilutive, non-voting equity, is that what you're thinking? >> Yeah, it's not an equity token. It's still in our mind a utility token but we do something very interesting. During the token sale event, we are going to launch an equity sale at the same time. So, you can decide if you are comfortable in the blockchain space, you know, all you want to be an equity investor. The disadvantage is you have less liquidity there but you have all the protections an equity gives you. We are a California-based company. It was audited financial since 2012. SEC-qualified and regulated, so equity in our case is a kind of sexy kind of thing. >> Yeah, and they have the long game. They're betting on acquisition or something else. >> Basically. >> Oh, well, they've got to get some revenue going. Well, what's next? What are you guys doing? Token sale done, is it working? What, is it going on now, let me just check it out. You've completed it? >> No, it's going to start on March 20th. It's going to run for two months until May 20th and so now it's a lot of travel, speaking with people, engaging. >> (laughs) >> Yeah, that's next. >> Well, congratulations. >> Thank you. >> So glad that Carrie on Facebook notified me of you guys. Super-impressed with what you're doing and we had a great conversation last night at the monetize roof party. Great to know you guys. I think IoT really needs this kind of model because there's a lot of real critical challenges around the role of data, the role of immutability. There's all kind of sensor devices out there, cameras, you can't go anywhere, digital cities are coming, smart cities. >> Right. >> Self-driving cars. It's going to be wired up, big time, so I think you guys got a good opportunity. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. This is John Furrier here in Puerto Rico for exclusive coverage of Blockchain Unbound. More after this short break. (electronic beats)

>> Narrator: Live from San Juan, Puerto Rico. It's theCUBE, covering Blockchain Unbound. Brought to you by Blockchain Industries. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to our exclusive coverage of, in Puerto, Rico for Blockchain Unbound. This is the industry conference room. People around the world from Silicon Valley, New York, and around the glove, coming to Puerto, Rico to talk about Blockchain decentralized internet cryptocurrency and really the future of society and global economic value creation of course our continuing coverage is focusing La Sierra for 2018. Our next guest is Mark Jeffery, CEO and Co-Founder of a company called Guardian Circle. Welcome. >> Thank you, thanks for having me. >> So you guys are doing something really interesting, so we, first of all, we like to geek out, as Fred say, "We're alpha-geeks." But we love IoT, cloud computing. You're doing something really interesting right now with Blockchain and this new decentralized internet around something of a critical infrastructure nature. Take a minute to talk about Guardian Circle's product, the coin, token that you're doing, and what it all means. >> So, Guardium is the token, the company's called Guardian Circle. Together they comprise global decentralized emergency response. So, six billion people on earth have no 911, There's just no magic number you can call, right? So hold that in your mind for a second. The other one billion of us, we do have 911, but it's not very good, it hasn't been really updated since the 60's. If you call 911 and if you're lucky enough to not get a busy signal, they have no idea where you are. Your location information is not transmitted. Which Uber can find you more easily than 911. Which is just insane, but that is the way it is. So, nevermind, so throw all that out >> So 911 is broken? 911 is broken. >> Yep If you have it, it's broken, and most people don't have it, so throw the whole thing out the window, let's start over. What would we build today? The way the world should work is whenever you're in trouble, no matter where you are on the globe, all you should have to do is press a button, that button sends an alert up to the Cloud, the Cloud looks down and sees what people and resources are already nearby, and then activates, coordinates, pushes all that help to you as quickly as possible. So, ten people in three minutes. That's what were, that's our-- >> So a couple things going on. So to me when you say, what should we start from scratch, put in my little operating system design network solutions add on, all kind of rolled into one as a stable, fault-tolerant, resilient, robust, always on network. >> Yes. >> Database that is fully interoperable and updated in real time of every number, every location, every persons capability to understand the discovery and resolution of a number. >> Yeah, so >> So that sounds like the internet. That sounds like the internet. >> (laughs) Well that's a little bit, probably further than we're going right now, but yes. Ultimately, you're correct. That would be the ultimate-- >> So no legacy baggage, 1960's Telco. >> No >> We're talking about immobile, in Africa for instance, there's more mobile penetration than anything else. That's what they got. >> Yes. >> So every country is their own sovereign kind of architecture? >> Yes >> Are you guys looking at it from a global perspective or regional? >> Global, so we think that, I mean, this is, this thing should be mobile native, location aware, and the alert should go out to multiple parties. And the phone number is your identifier in this system, but it's effectively an IP based system, really, so you're right. We have to balance that against privacies, so you get to decide who is on your alert grid, right? So you have to emphatically say, yes my friends, family and neighbors, and the subscription services, and if available, these official services. >> So Blockchain can solve the immutability privacy issue? >> Yes. >> The decentralized nature of network effect is a dynamic that people look for in good deals or good architecture. That's in place. >> Yes. >> People have a social graph, interest graphs connections. So the analog world is going digital. I mean, the old days was, is there a doctor in the house? But you were limited by how far you could yell. >> Right. >> So here you're saying literally, if you connect properly, the users in charge are their, their data. >> Yeah. >> They can dictate what they want to connect to, where, is that kind of how it works, is it peer to peer? >> Yeah, it's sort of peer to peer. I mean, a lot of people think, a lot of people mishear me a little bit and think that when you press that button, the alert goes out to everybody that's nearby, right? So total strangers that may or may not be trustworthy are suddenly coming, that's not what I'm saying. That is not what we're doing because we don't want to accidentally summon Jack the Ripper, like that's, you don't want to make a bad situation worse, right? So, you explicitly invite people into your protection grid, we call them guardians, hence, Guardian Circle, that would be your guardian circle. And you can have an unlimited number of them, so six, 6000, however many friends you have. Then we will also feature paid subscription services where you will be able to subscribe to, like, your local EMT collective, or your local license and bonded arms security, or if you're in a remote corner of the world, you could subscribe to the guy with a truck, who could run you down the mountain, right? When you're having medical problems. So it's going to vary depending on where you are in the world. We're also working with the Women's Safety Xprize, we're a partner, we're the backend of that prize. Which is an IoT device contest to make a panic button device, right? So when you push the panic button, what happens? It goes into Guardian Circle. >> So how does token economics fit into this? So I'm getting why it's tokenizable, How does it work mechanically? Do I buy tokens for safety? Is it like, I mean, take us through some of the use cases. >> Yeah sure, so there's five different ways in which we use the token. The first one is, obviously, to create the, to buy emergency response subscriptions. Now we're going to allow you, or provide a way for you to, as a consumer, just swipe your credit card in the app, and in the background you'll be purchase Guardium tokens, right? And it'll re-up every month if you don't have enough in, it'll be that sort of thing. So you might not even really be conscious of the fact that you're using cryptocurrency. If you are, there's a wallet that'll allow you to just use the cryptocurrency manually, the way you do any, any right now, right? >> And. >> So there's that. >> Okay so continue. >> Yep, the second thing we're going to do, we think that giving will be a big behavior in our universe, so you're going to be able to send Guardium directly to a beneficiary in the developing world. And what's cool about that is it doesn't go through a governments, a bank, or an organization. So remember Red Cross in Haiti? Can't happen here, and we're going to go even further than that, down the road, you're going to be able to track every dollar that you donated as easily as a FedEx, right? >> So you are creating a direct relationship between people who might want to help people and then a direct access for resources for the user. >> Correct. >> And so that's the primary, kind of a two >> That's one major flywheel. >> major flywheels going on. >> Just like people sponsor a child, safety is one of the biggest problems in the world. In fact, some people say, this guy named, Greg Hahn, who says it's the number one problem in the world that all other problems flow from the fact that people in the developing world aren't safe. Why don't they have water? Cause they're not safe. Why don't they have education? Cause they're not safe. Lawlessness has to be solved first. >> Trust is a huge part of this too. >> Yeah. >> So how do I set this up, where are you guys in the system, is there a product up and running, how do people get involved with your project? Take a minute to share that. >> Sure, so we have apps released today and they're distributed world-wide on IOS, Android, and Alexa. We also have an open API that lets anyone plug any alert device into our grid, obviously we have to, we want to know who you are first, but basically everyone is welcome. And so, and then our token sales site is at Guardium, Guardium.co. >> G, Guard, ium, Guardium. >> Yes, Guardium. >> And then Guardian Circle? >> Correct. >> Guardium with the m and the end of the token. What's the plan, what are you guys, how much have you raised, what's the story? Yeah, so we're selling ten million dollars worth of tokens, which represents 30% overall, 33% overall. We have a 100 million tokens in the sys, that, that's it, that will ever be distributed. It's on the NEO Blockchain, so we are, we are, we're sort of different from a lot of other folks. We're one of the very first western, we're not the first but we're one of the firsts. >> NEO has a good reputation of high performance. >> Yes >> Is that one of the considerations you had for them? >> Yeah, without a doubt. I mean, we deal in emergencies, so our tolerance for things like CryptoKitty swamping the network is very low. So yeah, so we liked what NEO had to say in a lot of ways because of that. >> I interviewed the CryptoKitties at Polycon, interesting story. It's a Pokemon moment for the internet stare. Well congratulations Mark, what's next for you guys, get through the sale, how's the team makeup look, what's going on with the company? >> Yeah, get through, I mean, definitely get through the sale is the biggest thing right now. We're a small team of, like about five people, plus some contractors. The next big thing that we have on our agenda is we're going out to India in four weeks to actually test the Xprize IoT panic button devices on the streets of Mumbai, so Guardian Circle plus device. >> Intense environment a lot of people there. >> Yeah. >> So let's talk about you. What is your background that got you here, or was there an itch you were scratching? Why this time, also the way to attract a lot of alph entrepreneurs, this is a disruptive time, but why Mark Jeffrey's, why now, why Guradian Circle, what's the passion behind it? >> So, well I started life as an engineer, but I won't bore you with all my adventures up until this moment. But in 2013, I became very interested in Bitcoin, wrote a book called, Bitcoin Explained Simply. Got the book, got the little crazy thoughts in my head. >> You're an author, speaker >> Right, same thing. >> distinguished influencer. (laughs) >> So that was sort of how that side began. In 2014, I basically, my girlfriend at the time had a stroke, she's fine, but at the time she was all alone. And she was on the floor of her garage, and I took her to the hospital, brought her back, and afterwards, I realized, she was alone for about a half an hour, if this had been a real stroke, this could have been very serious, she could have died, she could have been paralyzed. And she was drowning in help, there were about seven people who were either driving by or nearby while this was going on, within a 1000 yards. And she had no way to get to them. >> Yeah, yeah, a personal example of what you're doing. >> And I also realized, the other component was, all the help, I didn't know six, five of the other six people, they're her friends, they're not mine. But during her emergency, all of us need to be sharing location and in communication with each other immediately. And the importance of that just cannot be overstated in emergencies, seconds count. And so putting instant communications so that we can coordinate a response is the second-half of the problem. I initially did not intend to build an app. I went looking for this app and what I discovered was there are a ton of panic button apps, but all of them neglected solving the second-half of the problem, which is organizing the response. >> Yeah. >> And getting people on, in the same-- >> Mobilizing resources. >> Yeah, getting everyone into a war room without requiring them to know each other ahead of time, that was the big thing, no one had thought of that, so. >> It's like rolling up services when you need it instantly. It's like a compiler. >> It's at hawk services. >> You know, compile everything >> Yes, exactly. >> at real time assembly. >> Real time assembly, yeah >> Operating system. (laughs) >> that's exactly, it's great. That's actually a really good way to put it, yeah. >> No, but this is also pretty important, so it was a great personal example, thanks for sharing that personal story. But you know, there's a avalanches, whether you're a skier, it's people who go rock climbing, there's all kinds of use cases where a mountain biker is missing, all kinds of-- >> Remote locations are really big ones. >> I'm scuba diving, where are people, where were they last? So a lot of this is, are location based, and no one knows what the situation is, so the alerting is only one step to the value chain. >> It is, but I think, sorry you have a question. >> No, no, I was going to ask you, where does it go from there? >> Well I think, I think there are a lot of, I think safety check-ins, I think there's other things that we can do, but the one thing that, the one lesson that I've seen again, and again, and again, and again is that the companies that fail invariably, oh, the companies that don't focus always fail. So you got to pick one thing and be the best in the world at that one thing. And the emergency situation is our one thing, and that's big enough. >> Well, I think you have a great opportunity and we'll splint through the, as the evolution of this market grows, it's kind of a moving train, but the value promises is legit. I was talking to Fred Krueger, your friend and colleague in the business, it's a marketplace of these days, so it's money and marketplaces, in your case it's safety, marketplace. I could envision a day with your services where I publish and subscribe to services, I got in a catalog. >> Yes. >> Hey, I know my risks, everyone knows what they do in vanity, or risk factors whether you're jumping out of an airplane, or double black diamond skier. I would love to go to Lake Tahoe, or a mountain, or a place like this, and saying, I'm going to take some chances, here's what I'm going to subscribe to. >> (laughs) You're going to have to subscribe to some extra tokens while you're there. >> I would use Guardium. It could be more, I'm just brainstorming, thinking out loud, but I mean, that's the kind of web services framework you could bring. >> That's exactly right. >> Is that they way you guys are thinking about it? >> I do, I do, I'm so focused on this sort of food and shelter stage of our life right now. >> Yeah, get an ICO done. So yeah, we've got tons of all those ideas written done but we're not quite there yet, but when we get there, great ideas, absolutely. >> Well the use cases are changing because the peoples expectations are changing and now technology can meet these cases. So I'm seeing a lot of social entrepreneurship being done that are coming in through a funding vehicles that never would have got funded on venture capital funding. >> Totally correct. >> Whether it's battered women applications, human trafficking, safety apps, stuff that can make money, not be a kazillion, billion dollar business, but really change society and makeup. >> You've hit the nail on the head. There are a lot of Blockchain companies or ICO companies, this stuff, the venture guys, would never fund it because their model doesn't allow for it. They have, all these things have to be Facebook potentially, or they just have no tolerance for it. >> And the philanthropy world is not incented on economics, and also when the project loses its grant or funding the stack just gets thrown away. >> So this allows for sustainability for mission-based investing and developing. Slowly, I see societal entrepreneurship categorically going to boom from this wave. >> Yeah, totally agree. >> Across the board. >> The world will become a better place, we'll have better companies. >> Mark Jeffery, Guardian Circle, co-founder and CEO. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage here on the ground in Puerto, Rico for Blockchain Unbound. A lot of great stuff here, a lot of great start-ups, investors, of course theCUBE. 2018 will be covering all the shows. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching.

>> Narrator: From San Francisco, it's theCUBE covering Samsung Developer Conference 2017. Brought to you by Samsung. >> Welcome back everyone. Live here in San Francisco at Moscone West is the exclusive coverage from theCUBE SiliconANGLE Media of the SDC 2017. I'm John Furrier the co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media and the co-host of theCUBE. My next guest is Amy Jo Kim who is the CEO of Shufflebrain. It's the parent company of gamethinking.io, a variety of other projects, and expert in the convergence of design, gaming, computer science, and et cetera. Welcome to theCUBE. >> It's a pleasure to be here. >> Thanks for coming on. Obviously we've been seeing the trend, the convergence trend for a while certainly in the tech industry. Computer science and social science coming together, that was our motto when we started our company eight years ago. But really to me the flashpoint was Steve Jobs had the technology-liberal arts crossroads. That really kind of spawned the beginning of a creative generation start thinking about the devices, how it all intersects, and not the pure play handheld. So gamers here at Samsung Development Conference and developers bring game mechanics in. That's communities, gamification, games themselves, user interface. What's your reaction to all this? You've designed a great bunch of interfaces. >> I'm, I think it's fantastic. I think what we're seeing is really a flashpoint that has several trends converging. One of the trends we have is developers, the folks here, you know are right here at this wonderful conference, they've grown up with games. They're familiar with the lexicon of games, with how games work. And so it's very natural for them when they start to build their own apps and say what will make this engaging to turn to games and look for inspiration in games? So that's been going on for a while and it's accelerating. We're also seeing that mobile technology, mobile phones, have become so ubiquitous that most of the traffic coming in on many people's experiences 70%, I recently ran a promotion for Shufflebrain, 70% of our traffic was mobile total traffic. So the ubiquity of mobile phones means that everybody's got a potential gaming machine or a machine where they can have a light, fun, engaging experience right in their pocket. So as you noted, we've moved away from single purpose game consoles, handheld or otherwise they still exist, but more and more what we see is the best games and the best game like experiences that might not be games but they the feel and the pull of games. Those are showing up on mobile phones like Samsung. >> And the screens are awesome. I'll say my Note 8 here is awesome and bigger and better and the graphics. But it's a generational shift too. Like my son was, we're designing a new app and we're kind of sitting at the drawing board and he's like, "Dad, you're a search generation. "No one searches anymore. "You actually type on the keyboard, that's like so old." So he brings up a point which is illuminated here. Which is you see voice touch, voice activation. Harman's got now the kind of interface with this audio. You're seeing cars all over the air with software. This is really the computer science, computer engineering culture interfacing with art. Where new user experiences are coming that quite frankly don't look the same. >> Exactly that's such a good point. So what's happening is that a lot of the user experiences, the back end neural networks, the AI, the sophisticated bots that we've been seeing in gaming for the last five or six years are trickling into the mainstream. And that's what you always see. Gaming is the canary in a coal mine. What we see now happening in games and what we saw a few years ago is becoming more mainstream. So if we look now at what's happening in gaming, that gives us a clue to 18 to 24 months out for app developers. >> Yeah we brought this up on day one. You nailed it. It's an early indicator. >> That's right. >> What are you seeing in that area? Because you're in the vanguard of the user interface so you have a computer science background. You understand how communities work. Which by the way, you look at anything from blockchain ICOs to game communities, community is the most important aspect right now in the world. The community role of the people are so important. You don't have a network effect. You don't have input output into the quote neural aspect of the interface because now people are involved. Not just software and data bits. I need a notification from my friend if they're right around the corner from me. So it's the role of people. >> Exactly, so I'm a multiplayer game designer. The teams I work with, because it's always a team effort, are multiplayer games. Rock Band, Covet Fashion is a more recent one. And so we've known for a long time in the gaming industry that if you want to drive deep lasting engagement, you need to create a multiplayer experience and some sort of community around that. What you'll hear gamers say is "You know, I'm kind of tired of that game "but my friends need me. "It's where my friends are, my team needs me." So that's part of what drives long term engagement. >> John: The socialization piece. >> Exactly. What we're seeing now and the opportunity I think for developers even outside of gaming is we're seeing the intersection of gaming, a style of gaming that's sort of I would call them gaming systems versus game mechanics. We're seeing gaming systems find their way into social media. Musical.ly is a great example. And Discord is another example. Discord is a platform started by gamers but now it's merging into just other people. That's for communication. Sort of like a next generation Slack but mobile and for gamers. Covet Fashion, a game I worked on with a brilliant team who actually came up with the idea at CrowdStar, really merged a cooperative game mechanic like you might see in say Portal 2 or Left for Dead with social media and very lightweight voting systems of the users themselves playing a crucial role in what's good or not. Just like in Facebook or in Instagram, your feed is going to show you what gets liked a lot, what gets popular. And games are starting to incorporate this too so that the players themselves become almost like the game pieces and become a big part of what's entertaining. We see networks like Twitch with a huge rush of popularity. That is people delivering entertainment to each other. It's not scripted. So this user generated content, this systems which let people be entertaining to each other, is the huge push that's going on in gaming. And we have, part of what makes a game so exciting, is when the game makes interacting with other people lower friction or more magical but it's still the people that makes it exciting. >> Amy Jo this is amazing. I think that you're right on it. Because remember when I was a gamer, single player game on the computer, you got bored. I mastered it. Then comes multiplayer. But you're bringing up a new dynamic which is the dynamic nature of the people themselves. And I think Twitch had an interesting experiment where the comments, which we know on Twitch are pretty bad, drove the game experience. So now you have the people being part of the input to the game itself. I mean isn't Life a game in a way? >> Sure, you could look at Life the game. I think that that's a semantic issue. There are people that really enjoy looking at life as a game And if you define a game as a structured activity with roles and goals, sure you could look at it that way. What I think is most exciting is not so much what is and isn't a game but the bleeding over of gaming systems into places like digital health and education and enterprise and fashion, and those are, and genealogy. Right now I have a client who's merging a game like experience with a genealogy crowd source experience. So I think what I'd like to leave you with and to understand is the first wave of this we called gamification where people got very excited about the visible markers of progress that are in games like points and badges and leaderboards. And that's a great opening door, but that's not where the magic is. Where the magic is is in the underlying systems that drive you toward mastery of something you care about. And that's the explosion we're seeing now. So you say what am I seeing? I'm seeing clients come to me, a game designer, in all kinds, banking, call centers, SaaS products, change transformation in companies as well as all kinds of consumer products, saying we tried gamification. It just worked in the short term. We want what makes games interesting in the long term. First of all you said the most important thing which is other people. But it's not just other people. It's other people in a playful and mastery based environment that helps you get better at something you care about getting better at. >> So this great so take me through what game system. What I hear you saying is, okay, people think of gamification as a one trick pony, a shortcut to something. You're taking a much more wholistic approach saying the game system. What does that mean? What is a game system? Because you're, what I hear you saying, is that this is like a fabric. It's not like, or an operating system maybe. How should people think of a game... >> It's a methodology or a system. A good way to think about this, are you familiar with design thinking? >> Mm-hmm. >> Are you familiar with an agile approach or Agile Lean UX? Those are systems. Those are methodologies. Those are approaches to creating great products. And they help you. Game thinking is similar. It's got elements of design thinking, elements of Agile, but it adds game design. The difference between strong game design and gamification is game design is about bringing systems to life from the inside out. And so game thinking is as much about how you bring your product to life as it is about anything that you put into the product once it's brought to life. Which is where gamification usually comes in. So it's really about building a learning architecture into the core of your game using feedback loops and using simple systems. And one more thing. Every complex system starts as a simple system that works. So it's really about building core systems and then bringing them to life with the right approach and the right people. >> It's like having a kernel or a small building block. If you overthink it you could get in trouble. >> Right. But you also have to have the right building block so you build a strong foundation. >> Yeah I remember the old days when game engines came out. There was no market for game engines when the first games came out. Then someone said hey why don't we just take the game engine and become a game engine. That was an interesting dynamic that spawned a lot of innovation. Is there an analogy to that happening now where there's new innovations that people can build on top of? Is it open source? Is there an equivalent? I'm trying to figure out where that next level up is going to be because right now we've gone like this and then we see a new level with AR and these new kinds of games and you're bringing this kind of integrated system approach is coming. >> Right so I think there's two thing that have to happen for those to take off. One of which is technology based. You have to have engines. So Unity's rise has been tremendous for the gaming industry. Many many simple game-like experiences are being built in Unity, not from scratch. And other tools like that. And then ARKit from Apple is causing an explosion of really interesting work happening, making it easier to create and experiment with an experience like Pokemon Go. So those are the bottom-up tools based changes that are really accelerating innovation in our industry. Now at the time, none of that will work if you don't have the customer demand and the customer hunger. So the other thing that's happening is that customers are being trained by Pokemon Go and things like that that oh, this is how AR could work. We've seen that VR has kind of stalled out but again, that's a special purpose hardware that's not something easy that you can get on your mobile phone in between all the other things you do. So I think it can't be overstated how powerful it is to have these platforms combined with a huge consumer base on mobile, with phones in their pocket, ready to have a compelling game-like experience that doesn't necessarily have to be a game. The world is waiting for those. >> Yeah and your point about VR, you don't want a build it they will come mentality. You got to focus on the magic formula which is-- >> Customer demand. >> Call it sticky. But some could say look it's got to be a utility and that mastery component is critical whether it's learning, friendship, or some human dopamine effect right. >> Well that's exactly what we do at gamethinking.io. We help teams and companies create a product that customers love and come back to from the ground up using gaming techniques. So anyone who's interested, that's what we do. And the reason we help people do that is it's hard, and it's incredibly high leverage. >> Yeah and you got to have the expertise to do it. And it really is. It sounds like gamethinking.io, you're going to bring architecture. It's not just going to be jump on the grenade that someone throws a project at you. Sure, if it's a big project maybe. But you're kind of train the trainer it sounds like, you're teaching people to fish if you will. >> It's product development. Gamification is often a marketing campaign. We're talking about product development. If you want to build lasting engagement and you're a product leader, then you can use these techniques to build it from the ground up but it's not a silver bullet. >> Give a plug for what you do at Shufflebrain about your company and share some advice for folks watching that might be interested. Like I want to transform my Web 2.0, my 1.0 web responsive app, or my offshore built mobile app that I hired someone to just iOS it and Android it. I want to actually build from the ground up a new architecture that's going to be, have a lot of headroom, I really want to build it from the ground up with good design thinking, game system, game thinking, with the game systems, all the magic potentially in there. What do they do? I don't know do you call the, you know there's no Yellow Pages anymore. Do you Google search it? >> Thank you that was a great setup because that's, I mean I wish that I had had this years ago when I doing a venture funded startup. I needed help. So that's why I do what I do. So what we do is take 20 years of what works and what doesn't in game and product design and turn it into a step by step toolkit with templates, instruction, training, and coaching. And let me give you a specific tip. So there's, it's a whole system we use, but one of the things that you do and if anybody wants to try this it will amaze you if you're able to do it right, one of the things that the greatest game designers, the Will Wrights and folks at CrowdStar and Harmonics, what they do is when they're bringing a new game idea to life, first of all they find out aggressively as much about what's wrong with their ideas, what's right with it, through iterative, low fidelity testing early. Secondly they test it on their superfans that shortcut for high need, high value, early adopters. Not your target market but people that can get you to your target market. Knowing how to find and identify and then leverage your superfans for very early product testing and iteration, that's how you bring your core systems to life. Not with your ultimate target market. Most people don't know this. Knowing this, and then finding those people and leveraging them will turn what's often a failure into success. >> John: That's gold. >> It's complete gold. Let me just tell you why. Because if you're able to ask very product-focused questions, again with my guidance, of these people, you can build your product around what you know they want rather than guessing. >> And you can also help the person, might have blind spot, your customer, understand what superfans are saying. Sometimes it's like they're just giving you the answer right there early on. >> That's such a good point. And when you're inside of it- >> And I have bias. I'm an entrepreneur. Oh no I want to hear what I want to hear. I'm going to change the world. (laughs) Not really. >> That's why when I was an entrepreneur I knew all this stuff but I needed a coach when I was doing this. Because you can't see outside of your bubble and that's part of the value of doing this. >> Amy, the URL is? >> Gamethinking.io. >> Gamthinking.io. Amy Jo is a coach, she is an entrepreneur, venture backed, probably has some scar tissue from that but now she's kicking ass and taking names on gamethinking.io. Great mind. Thank you for sharing an amazing tutorial. You know that's free consulting here on theCUBE right here from and expert. >> It's what I love to do. Thank you for having me. >> Amy Jo here on theCUBE. Live in San Francisco at the Samsung Developer Conference, I'm John Furrier back with more here in theCUBE after this short break. (techno music)

>> Narrator: Live from San Francisco, it's TheCUBE. Covering Samsung Developer Conference 2017 brought to you by Samsung. (techno music) >> Hello there and welcome to the special exclusive coverage of Samsung Developer Conference 2017 here at the Moscone West in San Francisco, TheCUBE's coverage. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media and co-host of TheCUBE. We're here with Leah Hunter: author, thought leader, covers technology design, women in tech, a variety of things author at O'Reilly's Safari Books, Fast Company, Forbes, among a lot of other things you've done. Welcome to TheCUBE conversation here at the Samsung Developer Conference. >> Thank you. I appreciate it. >> So, Samsung obviously is tied with Google. We saw Google onstage. The story we're seeing here emerging is the edge of the network of mobile devices. That means the humans involved. That means the consumer and the technology are intersecting. This has been a big part of TheCUBE coverage, we've been looking at this for a while. We were just in China talking with Alibaba Cloud and the design ethos culture. Not just creating user experience, that's been out for a while, but it's not about speeds and feeds anymore. It's about enabling human interactions, we're seeing some bad stuff now. The fake news, all that bad behavior, but now, all the data's out there. This is a big part of the developer design now coming forward. What's your thoughts? >> Well, there are two ways that I see that playing out really powerfully and that it can play out powerfully. One, ethnography and social science is getting embedded into what people are creating now and I'm thrilled to see that, because we're at the beginning of a lot of new technologies, augmented reality is one of my specializations, and we're, you know, sure, it's been around for 60 years if you're counting that way, 15 really deeply, but we're just at the cusp of it really taking hold for consumers. And there's this opportunity for anyone developing AR specifically to build social science ethnography user research into their team to create things in a way that is, like, start as you mean to go on. We can be wise about what our future world looks like. And the second thing is around art. You know, when I came here and I sat down, you mentioned at Alibaba there had just been a conversation about art. Well, in my latest book I interviewed someone who is an artist. His name is Alex Mayhew, he did a bunch of work with Peter Gabriel, he's a digital artist who just happened to slide into technology. And because his background is in something entirely different, he approaches AR in a really different way. He just did something for an art museum in Ontario that's really fantastic and worth checking out. You can actually look up the exhibit. It's called ReBlink. I'm going to write about it, but it's there now. >> Well, you've been covering technology many ways, now you're onto AR, and also you're seeing the front range if you will of these new concepts. But before you get it there, define what ethnography is for the folks that might not know what it is. (laughs) >> Thank you. I forget, okay, so I define ethnography as kind of like seeing the world like a five year old. There's an author that I love, her name is Keri Smith. She writes children's books. I found the first copy of this at the Teat Museum. It's called How to be a Life Artist. But her books are all about close observation, collecting everything, paying attention to the world, and finding everything interesting. Being curious in the same way you do when you're a five year old. Well, that's essentially what an ethnographer does in a business context. They observe, they interview people, they go around and collect data the same way that anyone who's on the data side is doing it with numbers. They do it with quotes and observation and pictures and then aggregate that into a story. >> That brings up a great conversation we're seeing here at the Samsung conference as a trend, a mega trend if you will, and that is the blending of analog and digital. Or, they say, physical to digital. Whatever they want to call it. Internet of things is the tech buzzword, >> (Leah) Yeah >> Internet of things being the senses on devices, or wearables, or things of that nature. That is defined as the edge of the network. This is the big wave that's forcing things to be different at the tech level. So this is where this blending comes in. It's the consumerization of tech. This is a big part of these consumer companies who have to kind of get their act together on cloud computing, and a lot of tech detail. So it's coming down from the edge, the infrastructures being redefined, or replatformed as we say. How do you view that, and what does your data show for you around how companies are reacting, what are the consumer expectations? >> Well, I'm going to speak to what I'm seeing in the world because I approach the world like an ethnographer. I wander around, and I collect interesting bits of things, kind of like a magpie. >> (John) Yeah. >> One thing that I saw this week, or I saw two things that were very interesting. I was just in New York, and I walked past an area where it was branded Amazon, but it kind of looked like a carnival. And I was like, what is going on here? And basically, Amazon is doing pop-ups, I believe they said in 18 cities, they just started in New York, but it's a pop-up where you can text in, and you can buy an item on Amazon that you can't get anywhere else. In this instance it was a Nintendo. You go and you pick it up in this physical space that kind of operates like a carnival and has circusy lights and beautiful trucks and whatever. But I thought that that was the coolest blend, and they also gave me their marketing materials that kind of looked like a ticket to a carnival. But I liked that, because it was a new way a digital focused company is operating in the physical world, to your point. It's a new way of blending those. And Amazon doesn't necessarily have to do it. It's just smart marketing. But it also shows the way that companies are pushing from the internet into the physical world. Now that's also happening in reverse. There's a company I really like called Shimmy that basically uses Kinect sensors to measure your body and make custom-made swimsuits for women. They're using that digital information and they're sort of, like, pushing it, so, yeah. >> Yeah, this is a big thing, I mean, this is about reimagining the future. And I think developers, this is a developer conference, so they tried out all the shiny new toys, Bixby, which is personalization now, IOT, which is kind of a geeky message, but ultimately the developers and the ecosystem partners of Samsung have to create the future together. So the question for you is around how you see the ecosystems developing. I see developers learning more about the real world. Less being behind the wall, if you will. Being the super geeks coding away. You're seeing developers on the front lines. And I think that's super important. I do want to get it noted here that you got a book coming out. >> Yes. >> So tell us what you're working on, cause it's going to ship in December? >> Yeah, I... >> What is the book about? I mean, obviously it's chroniclizing this new wave. What is the book about? Tell us a little bit about the book you're writing. >> So I wrote a book, my last book was about industrial augmented reality specifically, and it was sponsored by PTC, so you can actually go and find it for free. They wanted something that would work around industrial AR, and I wrote it in editorial independence so it is truly my perspective, but what was interesting about that at the time I wrote it, I discovered industrial AR was the most powerful place to play, because there were real world examples of AR actually helping people. >> John: Yeah. >> Now, I've broadened that look to see okay, Goldman Sachs said that there's going to be all this growth. Are the areas that they're looking at, things like education, real estate, you know, construction, is there actually growth there? So it's a broad look at a AR. And it's on O'Reilly's Safari Books. >> John: Well, that's interesting. One of the things that's interesting, you know, I've seen many waves myself, I've been through a bunch of cycles. It used to be the consumers that would lead the trends. But you're bringing up an interesting point around AI, augmented reality, even virtual reality. The innovations coming from the enterprise side. So, industrial IOT is really hot right now cause people are connecting physical plant and equipment. You see drones and it's mostly about industrial, AR's industrial because the use cases are so obvious. >> That's right. >> Not necessarily the consumer side has it yet. So it's almost flipped the entire world around. >> But, with, you know, Pokemon Go, that did sort of give consumers the scent, a scent of, okay, this is what it is you know, with AR kit, it hasn't completely lived up to our expectations, but there has been a flurry of activity around people experimenting to see how it can be applied in a consumer way. And, frankly, you know, there are people like DHL who are starting to roll it out in a way that is somewhere between industrial use and consumer in a broad way. So it's moving there. It is nowhere near ready for it yet. >> Leah Hunter here. A thought leader, writer, author, and a new book coming out. I'll give you the final word. What are you up to? What are you going to do after this event? What's next for you? What's the next couple months look like? Obviously, you've got to jam hard on the book, get that done, what else you working on? >> (laughs) I'm an interesting person to ask that question. I produce a television show called Created Here. I'm flying to Austin after this to interview artists and musicians and shoot our next episode of the show. Then we're going to LA and then New York. >> And where are you based out of? >> Me? >> Yeah. >> San Francisco, New York, a little bit Paris, and some New Orleans. >> You're on the plane a lot. >> I am. I like my life. >> Well, you've got a great life, and obviously great work you're doing. Come by TheCUBE studio in Palo Alto, give us an update on what your findings are as you go get that new perspective of art, artistry, artisans are really going to be the craft, we believe that TheCUBE will be the future of intersecting with technology. More exclusive coverage here in Moscone West in San Francisco, this is the Cube's coverage of Samsung Developer Conference. We'll be right back with more coverage after this short break.

>> Announcer: From the Fairmont Hotel in the heart of Silicon Valley, it's The Cube. Covering when IOT met AI, the intelligence of things. Brought to you by Western Digital. >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Rick here with The Cube. We're in downtown San Jose at the Fairmont Hotel at a little show called when IOT Met AI, the Intelligence of Things. Talking about big data, IOT, AI and how those things are all coming together with virtual reality, artificial intelligence, augmented reality, all the fun buzz words, but this is where it's actually happening and we're real excited to have a pioneer in this space. He's Jack McCauley. He was a co-founder at Occulus VR, now spending his time at UC Berkeley as an innovator in residence. Jack welcome. >> Thank you. >> So you've been watching this thing evolve, obviously Occulus, way out front in kind of the VR space and I think augmented a reality in some ways is even more exciting than just kind of pure virtual reality. >> Right. >> So what do you think as you see this thing develop from the early days when you first sat down and started putting this all together? >> Well, I come from a gaming background. That's what I did for 30 years. I worked in video game development, particularly in hardware and things, console hardware. >> That's right, you did the Guitar Hero. >> Guitar Hero. Yeah, that's right. >> We got that one at home. >> I built their guitars and designed and built their guitars for Activision. And when were part of Red Octane, which is a studio. I primarily worked in the studio, not the headquarters, but I did some of the IP work with them too, so, to your question, you know when you produce a product and put it on the market, you never really know how it's going to do. >> Jeff: Right. >> So we make, we made two developer kits, put them out there and they exceeded our expectations and that was very good. It means that there is a market for VR, there is. We produce a consumer version and sales are not what we expected for that particular product. That was designated towards PC gamers and hopefully console games. But what has done well is the mobile stuff has exceeded everyone's mildest expectations. I heard numbers, Gear VR, which is Occulus designed product for me, sold 7 million of those. That's a smash hit. Now, worldwide for phone mounted VR goggles, it's about 20 million and that's just in two years, so that's really intriguing. So, what has happened is it's shifted away from an expensive PC based rig with $700 or whatever it costs, plus $1,500 for the computer to something that costs $50 and you just stick your cell phone in it and that's what people, it doesn't give you the best experience, but that's what has sold and so if I were doing a start-up right now, I would not be working on PC stuff, I'd be working on mobile stuff. >> Jeff: Right. >> And the next thing I think, which will play out of this is, and I think you mentioned it prior to the interview, is the 360 cameras and Google has announced a camera that they're going to come out and it's for their VR 180 initiative, which allows you to see 180 video in stereo with a cell phone strapped to your face. And that's very intriguing. There's a couple of companies out there working on similar products. Lucid Cam, which is a start-up company here has a 180 camera that's very, very good and they have one coming out that's in 4K. They just launched their product. So to answer your question, it looks like what is going to happen is for VR, is that it's a cell phone strapped to your face and a camera somewhere else that you can view and experience. A concert. Imagine taking it to a sporting event where 5,000 people can view your video, 10,000 from your seat. That's very intriguing. >> Yeah, it's interesting I had my first kind of experience just not even 360 or live view, but I did a periscope from the YouTube concert here at Levi Stadium a couple of months ago, just to try it out, I'd never really done it and it was fascinating to watch the engagement of people on that application who had either seen them the prior week in Seattle or were anticipating them coming to the Rose Bowl, I think, you know, within a couple of days, and to have an interaction just based on my little, you know, mobile phone, I was able to find a rail so I had a pretty steady vantage point, but it was a fascinating, different way to experience media, as well as engagement, as well as kind of a crowd interaction beyond the people that happened to be kind of standing in a circle. >> You, what's intriguing about VR 180 is that anybody can film the concert and put the video on YouTube or stream it through their phone. And formerly it would require a $10,000 camera, a stereo camera set up professionally, but can you imagine though that a crowd, you know, sourced sort of thing where the media is sourced by the crowd and anyone can watch it with a mobile phone. That's what's happening, I think, and with Google's announcement, it even that reinforces my opinion anyways that that is where the market will be. It's live events, sporting events. >> Right, it's an experience, right? It all comes back to kind of experience. People are so much more experience drive these days than I think thing driven from everything from buying cars versus taking a new Uber and seeing it over and over and over again. People want the experience, but not necessarily, as the CEO of Zura said, the straps and straddles of ownership, let me have the fun, I don't necessarily want to own it. But I think the other thing that gets less talked about, get your opinion, is really the kind of combination of virtual reality plus the real world, augmented reality. We see the industrial internet of things all the time where, you know, you go take a walk on that factory before you put your goggles on and not only do you see what you see that's actually in front of you, but now you can start to see, it's almost like a heads up display, certain characteristics of the machinery and this and that are now driven from the database side back into the goggles, but now the richness of your observation has completely changed. >> Yes, and in some ways when you think of what Google did with Google Glass, not as well as we had liked. >> But for a first attempt. >> Yeah. They're way ahead of their time and there will come a time when, you know, Snap has their specs, right? Have you seen those? It's not augmented reality, but, there will come a time when you can probably have a manacle on your face and see the kinds of things you need to see if your driving a car for instance that, I mean, a heads up display or a projector projecting right into your retina. So, and, so I think that's the main thing for augmented reality. Will people, I mean, your Pokemon Go, that's kind of a AR game in a way. You look through your cell phone and the character stays fixed on the table or wherever you're looking for it. I mean that uses a mobile device to do that and I can imagine other applications that use a mobile device to do that and I'm aware of people working on things like that right now. >> So do you think that the breakthrough on the mobile versus the PC-based system was just good enough? In being able to just experience that so easily, you know, I mean, Google gave out hundreds and hundreds of thousands of the cardboard boxes, so wow. >> Yeah. Well, it didn't mean that Gear VR didn't move into the market, it did. You know, it did anyways, but to answer your question about AR, you know, I think that, you know, without having good locals, I mean the problem with wearing the Google Glass and the Google cardboard and Gear VR is it kind of makes you sick a little bit and nobody's working on the localization part. Like how to get rid of the nausea effect. I watched a video that was filmed with Lucid Cam at the Pride Parade in San Francisco and I put it on and somebody was moving with the crowd and I just felt nauseous, so that problem probably probably is one I would attempt to attack if I were going to build a company or something like that right now. >> But I wonder too, how much of that is kind of getting used to the format because people when they first put them on for sure, there's like, ah, but you know, if you settle in a little bit and our eyes are pretty forgiving, you get used to things pretty quickly. Your mind can get accustomed to it to a certain degree, but even I get nauseous and I don't get nauseous very easily. >> Okay, so you're title should just be tinkerer. I looked at your Twitter handle. You're building all kinds of fun stuff in your not a garage, but your big giant lab and you're working at Berkeley. What are some of the things that you can share that you see coming down the road that people aren't necessary thinking about that's going to take some of these technologies to the next level. >> I got one for you. So you've heard of autonomous vehicles, right? >> Jeff: Yep, yep. >> And you've heard of Hollow Lens, right. Hollow Lens is an augmented reality device you put on your had and it's got built in localization and it creates what's, it's uses what's know as SLAM or S-L-A-M to build a mesh of the world around you. And with that mesh, the next guy that comes into that virtual world that you mapped will be away ahead. In other words, the map will already exists and he'll modify upon that and the mesh always gets updated. Can you imagine getting that into a self-driving vehicle just for safety's sake, mapping out the road ahead of you, the vehicle ahead of you has already mapped the road for you and you're adding to the mesh and adjusting the mesh, so I think that that's, you know, as far as Hollow Lens is concerned and their localization system, that's going to be really relevant to self-driving cars. Now whether or not it'll be Microsoft's SLAM or somebody else's, I think that that's probably the best, that's the good thing that came out of Hollow Lens and that will bleed into the self-driving car market. It's a big data crunching number and in Jobs, he was actually looking at this a long time ago, like what can we do with self-driving vehicles and I think he had banned the idea because he realized he had a huge computing and data problem. That was 10 years ago. Things have changed. But I think that that's the thing that will possibly come out of, you know, this AR stuff is that localization is just going to be transported to other areas of technology and self-driving cars and so forth. >> I just love autonomous vehicles because everything gets distilled and applied into that application, which is a great application for people to see and understand it's so tangible. >> Yeah, it may change the way we think about cars and we may just not ever own a car. >> I think absolutely. The car industry, it's ownership, it's usage, it's frequency of usage, how they're used. It's not a steel cage anymore for safety as the crash rates go down significantly. I think there's a lot of changes. >> Yeah, you buy a car and it sits for 20 hours a day. >> Right. >> Unutilized. >> All right. Well, Jack I hope maybe I get a chance to come out and check out your lab one time because you're making all kinds of cool stuff. When's that car going to be done? >> I took it upon myself to remodel a house the same time I was doing that, but the car is moving ahead. In September I think I can get it started. Get the engine running and get the power train up and running. Right now I'm working on the electronics and we have an interesting feature on that car that we're going to do an announcement on later. >> Okay, we'll look out for that. We'll keep watching the Twitter. All right, thanks for taking a few minutes. All right, let's check with Cauley. I'm Jeff Rick. You're watching The Cube from When IOT Met AI, the Intelligence of Things in San Jose. We'll be right back after this short break. Thanks for watching. (technological jingle)

>> Narrator: Live from Austin, Texas, it's the Cube covering South by Southwest 2017. Brought to you by Intel. Now, here's John Furrier. >> Hey, welcome back everyone. We're live here in the Cube coverage of South by Southwest. We're at the Intel AI Lounge, hashtag Intel AI. And the theme is AI for social good. So if you really support that, go in Twitter and use the hashtag Intel AI and support our cause. I'm John Furrier with Silicon Angle, I'm here with Robert Scoble, @Scobalizer. Just announcing this week the new formation of his new company, the Transformation Group. I've known Robert for over 12 years now. Influencer, futurist. You've been out and about with the virtual reality, augmented reality, you're wearing the products. >> Yup. >> You've been all over the world, you were just at Mobile World Con, we've been following you. You are the canary in the coalmine poking at all the new technology. >> Well, the next five years, you're going to see some mind blowing things. In fact, just the next year, I predict that this thing is going to turn into a three ounce pair of glasses that's going to put virtual stuff on top of the world. So think about coming back to South by Southwest, you're wearing a couple pairs of glasses, and you are going to see blue lines on the floor taking you to your next meeting or TV screens up here so I can watch the Cube while I walk around the streets here. It's going to be a lot of crazy stuff. >> So, we've been on our opening segment, we talked about it, we just had a segment on social good around volunteering, but what the theme is coming out is this counter culture where there's now this humanization aspect they called the consumerization of IT in the past. But in the global world, the human involvement now has these emersion experiences with technology, and now is colliding with impacting lives. >> Well, absolutely true. >> This is a Microsoft HoloLens first of all. And HoloLens puts virtual stuff on top of the real world. But at home, I have an HTC Vibe, and I have an Oculus Rift for VR, and VR is that immersive media. This is augmented reality or what we call mixed reality, where the images are put on top of the world. So I can see something pop off of you. In fact, last year at South by, I met a guy who started a company called iFluence, he showed me a pair of glasses and you look at a bottle like this and a little menu pops off the side of a bottle, tells you how much it is, tells you what's in the bottle, and lets you buy new versions of this bottle, like a case of it and have it shipped to my house all with my eyes. That's coming out from Google next year. >> So the big thing on the immersion the AR, you look at what's going on at societal impact. What are the things that you see? Obviously, we've been seeing at Mobile World Congress before Peelers came out, autonomous vehicles is game changing, smart cities, median entertainment, the world that we know close to our world, and then smart home. >> Oh yeah. >> Smart home's been around for years, but autonomous vehicles truly is a societal change. >> Yes. >> The car is a data center now. It's got experiences. And there's three new startups you should pay attention to, in the new cars that are coming in the next 18 months. Quanergy is one. They make a new kind of light R, a new sensor. In fact, there's sensors here that are sensing the world as I walk around and seeing all the surfaces. The car works the same way. It has to see ahead to know that there's a kid in front of your car, the car needs to stop, right. And Quanergy is making a focusable semiconductor light R, that's going to be one to watch. And then there's a new kind of brain, a new kind AI coming, and DeepScale is the one that I'm watching. The DeepScale brain uses a new third company called Luminar Technologies, which is making a new kind of 3D map of the world. So think about going down the street. This new map is going to know every pot hole, every piece of paint, every bridge on the street, and it's going to, the brain, the AI, is going to compare the virtual map to the real map, to the real world and see if there's anything new, like a kid crossing across the street. Then the car needs to do something and make a new decision. So 3D startups are going to really change the car. But the reason I'm so focused on mixed reality, is mixed reality is the user interface for the self-driving car, for the smart city, for the internet of things, the fields in your farm or what not, and for your robot, and for your drone. You're going to have drones that are going to know this space, and you can fly it right, I've seen drones already in the R & D labs at Intel. You can fly them straight at the wall, it'll stop an inch from the wall because it knows where the wall is. >> 'Cause it's got the software, it's got the sensors, the internet of things. We are putting out a new research report at Wikibound called IOT and P, Internet Things and People. And this is the key point. I want to get your thoughts on this because you nailed a bunch of things, and I want you to define for the folks watching what you mean by mixed reality because this is not augmented reality. >> Well it is. >> John: You're talking about mixed reality. >> It is augmented reality, it's just-- >> John: But why mixed reality? >> We came up with the new term called mixed reality because on our, we have augmented reality on phones. But the augmented reality you have on phones like the Pokemon's we've been talking about. They're not locked to the world. So when I'm wearing this, there's actually a shark right here on this table, and it's locked on the table, and I can walk around that shark. And it seems like it's sitting here just like this bottle of water is sitting on the table. This is mind blowing. And now we can actually change the table itself and make it something else. Because every pixel in this space is going to be mapped by these new sensors on it. >> So, let's take that to the next level. You had mentioned earlier in your talk just now about user interface to cars. You didn't say in user interface to cars, you didn't say just smart, you kind of implied, I think you meant it's interface to all the environments. >> Robert: Yes. >> Can you expand on what your thoughts on that? >> You're going to be wearing glasses that look like yours in about a year, much smaller than this. This is too dorky and too big for an average consumer to wear around right, but if they're three ounces and they look something like what you're wearing right now. >> Some nice Ray Bans, yup. >> And they're coming. I've seen them in the R & D labs. They're coming from a variety of different companies. Google, Facebook, Loomis, Magic Leap, all sorts of different companies are coming with these lightweight small glasses. You're going to wear them around and it's going to lay interface elements on everything. So think about my watch. Why if I do this gesture, why do I have to look at a little tiny screen right here? Why isn't the whole screen of my calendar pop up right here? They could do that, that's a gesture. This computer in here can sense that I'm doing a gesture and can put a new user interface on top of that. Now, I've seen tractors that have sensors in them. Now, using a glass like this, it shows me what the pumps are doing in the tractor on the glasses. I can walk around a factory floor and see the sensors in the pipes on the factory floor and see the sensors in my electric motors on the factory. All with a one pair of glasses. >> So this is why the Intel AI thing interests me, this whole theme. Because what you just described requires data. So one, you need to have the data available. >> Robert: Yes. >> The data's got to be a frictionless, it can't be locked in some schema as they say in the database world. It's got to be free to be addressed by software. >> Yes. >> You need software that understands what that is. And then you need horsepower, compute power, chips to make it all happen. >> Yeah, think about a new kind of TV that's coming soon. I'm going to look at TV like this one, a physical TV. But it's too small and it's in the wrong angle. So I can just grab the image off the TV and virtually move it over here. And I'll see it, nobody else will see it. But I can put that TV screen right here, so I can watch my TV the way I want to watch it. >> Alright so this is all sci-fi great stuff, which actually-- >> It's not sci-fi, it's here already. You just don't have it. I have it (laughs). >> Well, you can see it's kind of dorky, but I'm not going to say you're a dork 'cause I know you. To mainstream America, mainstream world, it's a bit sci-fi but people are grokking this now. Certainly the younger generation that are digital native all are coming in post-9/11, they understand that this is a native world to them, and they take to it like a fish to water. >> Yes. >> Us old guys, but we are the software guys, we're the tech guys. So continue to the mainstream America, what has to happen in your mind to mainstream this stuff? Obviously self driving cars is coming. It's in fleets first, and then cars. >> We have to take people on a journey away from computing like this or computing like this to computing on glasses. So how do we do that? Well, you have to show deep utility. And these glasses show that. Wearing a HoloLens, I see aliens coming out of the walls. Blowing holes in this physical wall. >> John: Like right now? >> Yeah. >> What are you smoking (laughs)? >> Nothing yet. And then I can shoot them with my fingers because the virtual things are mixing with the real world. It's a mind blowing experience. >> So do you see this being programmed by users or being a library of stuff? >> Some are going to be programmed by users like Minecraft is today on a phone or on a tablet. Most of it is going to be built by developers. So there's a huge opportunity coming for developers. >> Talk about the developer angle, because that's huge. We're seeing massive changes in the developer ecosystems. Certainly, open source is going to be around for awhile. But which friends do you see in open source, I mean, I'm sorry, in the developer community, with this new overlay of 5G connectivity, all this amazing cloud technology? >> There's a new 3D mapping and it's a slam based map. So think about this space, this physical space. These sensors that are on the front of these new kinds of glasses that are coming out are going to sense the world in a new way and put it into a new kind of database, one that we can put programmatic information into. So think about me walking around a shopping mall. I walk in the front door of a shopping mall, I cross geo fence in that shopping mall. And the glasses then show me information about the shopping mall 'cause it knows it's in the shopping mall. And then I say, hey Intel, can you show me, or Siri, or Alexa, or Cortana, or whoever you're talking to. >> Mostly powered by Intel (laughs). >> Most of it is powered by Intel 'cause Intel's in all the data centers and all these glasses. In fact, Intel is the manufacturer of the new kind of controller that's inside this new HoloLens. And when I ask it, I can say, hey, where's the blue jeans in this shopping mall? And all of a sudden, three new pairs of blue jeans will appear in the air, virtual blue jeans, and it'll say this one's a Guess, this one's a Levi's, this one's a whatever. And I'll say, oh I want the Levi's 501, and I'll click on it, and a blue line will appear on the floor taking me right to the product. You know, the shopping mall companies already have the data. They already know where the jeans are in the shopping mall and these glasses are going to take you right to it. >> Robert, so AI is the theme, it's hot, but AI, I mean I love AI, don't get me wrong. AI is a mental model in my mind for people to kind of figure out that this futuristic world's here and it's moving fast. But machine learning is a big part of what AI is becoming. >> Yes. >> So machine learning is becoming automated. >> Well it's becoming a lot faster. >> Faster and available. >> Because it use to take 70,000 images of something like a bottle to train the system that this is a bottle versus a can, bottle versus can. And the scientists have figured out how to make it two images now. So all I need is two images of something new to train the system that we have a bottle versus a can. >> And also the fact that computes available. There's more and more faster processors that this stuff can get crunched, the data can be crunched. >> Absolutely, but it's the data that trains these things. So let's talk about the bleeding edge of AI. I've seen AIs coming out of Israel that are just mind blowing. They take a 3D image of this table, they separate everything into an object. So this is an object. It's separate from the table that it's on. And it then lets me do AI look-ups on the object. So this is a Roxanne bottle of water. The 3D sensor can see the logo in this bottle of water, can look to the cloud, find all sorts of information about the manufacturer here, what the product is, all sorts of stuff. It might even pull down a CAD drawing like the computer that you're on. Pull down a CAD drawing, overlay it on top of the real product, and now we can put videos on the back of your Macintosh or something like that. You can do mind blowing stuff coming soon. That's one angle. Let's talk about medical. In Israel, I went to the AI manufacturers. They're training the MRI machines to recognize cancers. So you're going to be lying in an MRI machine and it's going to tell the people around the machine whether you have cancer or not and which cancer. And it's already faster than the doctor, cheaper than the doctor, and obviously doesn't need a doctor. And that's going to lead into a whole discussion-- >> The Christopher thing. These are societal problems by the way. The policy is the issue, not the technology. How do you deal with the ethical issues around gene sequencing and gene editing? >> That's a whole other thing. I'm just recognizing whether you have cancer on this example. But now we need to talk about jobs. How do we make new jobs in massive quantities. Because we're going to decimate a lot of peoples' jobs with these new technologies, so we need to talk about that, probably on a future Cube. But I think mixed reality is going to create millions of jobs because think about this bottle. In the future, I'm going to be wearing a pair of glasses and Skrillex is going to jump out of the bottle, on to the table, and give a performance, and then jump back into the bottle. That's only four years away according to the guy who's running a new startup called 8i. He's making a new volumetric camera, it's a camera 40 or 50 cameras around-- >> If you don't like Skrillex, Martin Garrix can come on. >> Whatever you want. Remember, this media's going to be personalized to your liking. Spotify is already doing that. Do you listen to Spotify? >> John: Yeah, of course. >> Do you listen to the discovery weekly feature on that? >> No. >> You should. It's magical. It brings you the best music based on what you've already listened and it's personalized. So your discovery weekly on your phone is different than the discovery weekly on my phone. And that's run by AI. >> So these are new collaborative filters. This is all about software? >> Yeah. Software and a little bit of hardware. Because you still need to sense the world in a new way. You're going to get new watches this year that have many more sensors that are looking in your veins for whether you have high blood pressure, whether you're a in shape for running. By the way, you're going to have an artificial coach when you go running in the morning, running next to you, just like when you see Mark Zuckerberg. He can afford to pay a real coach, I can't. So he has a real coach running with him every morning and saying hey, we're going to do some interval training today, we're going to do some sprints to get your cardio up. Well, now the glasses are going to do that for you. It's going to say, let's do some intervals today and you're going to wear the watch that's going to sense your blood pressure and your heart rate and the artificial coach running next you. And that's only two years away. >> Of course, great stuff. Robert Scoble, we have to close the segment. Quickly, how has South by changed in ten years? >> Well, 20, I've been coming for 20 years. I've been coming since it was 500 people and now it's 50,000, 70,000 people, it's crazy. >> How has it changed this year? What's going on this year? >> This is the VR year. Every year we have a year right. There was the Twitter year, there was the Foursquare year. This is the VR year, so if you're over at Capital Factory, you're going to see dozens of VR experiences. In fact, my co-author's playing the Mummy right now. I had to come on your show, I got the short straw (laughs). Sit in the sun instead of playing some cool stuff. But there's VR all over the place. Next year is going to be the mixed reality year, and this is a predictor of the next year that's coming. >> Alright, Robert Scoble, futurist right here on the Cube. Also, congratulations on your new company. You're going out on your own, Transformation Group. >> Yeah, we're helping out brands figure out this mixed reality world. >> Congratulations of course. As always, it is a transformational time in the history of our world and certainly the computer industry is going to a whole other level that we haven't seen before. And this is going to be exciting. Thanks for spending the time with us. It's the Cube here live at South by Southwest special Cube coverage, sponsored by Intel. And the hashtag is Intel AI. If you like it, tweet us at Twitter. We'll be happy to talk to you online. I'm John Furrier. More after this short break. (electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live, from Silicon Valley, it's the Cube. Covering Google Cloud Next 17. (ambient music) >> Okay, welcome back everyone. We are here live in Palo Alto for a special two days of coverage of Google Next 2017 events in San Francisco. Sold out, 10,000 plus people. Yeah, really, an amazing turn of events. Amazon Web Services Reinvent had 36,000, Google's nipping at their heels, although different, we're going to break down the differences with Google versus Amazon because they're really two different things and again, this is Cube coverage here in Palo Alto studio, getting reaction. Sponsored by Intel, thanks, Intel, for allowing us to continue the wall-to-wall coverage of the key events in the tech industry. Our next guest is Val Bercovici who's the boardmember of the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, boardmember. >> That's right. >> Welcome back, you were here last week from Mobile World Congress, great to see you. Silicon contributor, what your reaction to the Google keynote, Google news? Not a lot of news, we saw the SAP, that was the biggest news and the rest were showcasing customers, most of the customers were G Suite customers. >> Yeah, exactly. So, I would say my first reaction is bit of a rough keynote, you know, there's definitely not as quit as much polish as Microsoft had in their heyday and of course, Amazon nowadays in the Cloud era. But what's interesting to me is there's the whole battle around empathy right now. So, the next gen developers and the Clouderati talk about user empathy and that means understanding the workflow of the user and getting the user to consume more of your stuff, you know, Snapchat gets user empathy for the millennial generation but anybody else. Facebook as well. So, you see Google, we emphasize, even the Google Twitter account, it emphasizes developer productivity and they have pretty strong developer empathy. But what AWS has, Amazon with AWS is enterprise empathy, right, they really understand how to package themselves and make themselves more consumable right now for a lot of mainstream enterprises, they've been doing this for three, four years at their Reinvent events now. Whereas Google is just catching up. They've got great developer empathy but they're just catching up on enterprise empathy. Those are the main differences I see. >> Yeah, I think that's an important point, Val, great, great point, I think Amazon certainly has, and I wrote this in my blog post this morning, getting a lot of reaction from that, actually, and some things I want to drill down on the network and security side. Some Google folks DMing me we're going to do that. But really, Amazon's lead is way out front on this. But the rest, you know, call 'em IBM, not in any particular, IBM, Oracle, Google, SAP, others, put Salesforces, we're talking Sass and Adobe, they're all in this kind of pack. It's like a NASCAR, you know, pack and you don't know who's going to slimshot around and get out there. But they all have their own unique use cases, they're using their own products to differentiate. We're hearing Google and again, this is a red flag for me because it kind of smells like they're hiding the ball. G Suite, I get the workplace productivity is a Cloud app, but that's not pure Cloud conversations, if you look at the Gartner, Gartner's recent, last report which I had a chance to get a peek at, there's no mention of Sassifications, Google G Suite's not in there, so the way Cloud is strictly defined doesn't even include Sass. >> Yeah. >> If you're going to include Sass, then you got to include Salesforce in that conversation or Adobe or others. >> Exactly. >> So, this is kind of an optical illusion in my mind. And I think that's something that points to Google's lack of traction on customers in the enterprise. >> This is where behind the scenes, Kubernetes, is so important and why I'm involved with the the CNCF. If anything, the first wave of Clouded option particularly by enterprise was centered around the VM model. And you know, infrastructure's a service based on VMs, Amazon, AWS is the king of that. What we're seeing right now is developers in particular that are developing the next generation of apps, most of them are already on our phones and our tablets and our houses and stuff, which is, you know, all these Echo-style devices. That is a container-based architecture that these next gen applications are based on. And so, Kubernetes, in my mind, is really nothing more than Google's attempt to create as much of a container-based ecosystem at scale so that the natural home for container-based apps will be GCP as opposed to AWS. That's the real long term play in why Google's investing so heavily in Kubernetes. >> Is that counterintuitive? Is that a good thing? I mean, it sounds like they're trying to change the goalpost, if you will, to change the game because we had Joe Arnold on, the founder of Swiftstack and you know, ultimately, you know, Clouds are Clouds and inter-Clouding and multi-Cloud is important. Does Kubernete actually help the industry? Or is that more Google specific in your mind? >> I think it will help the industry but the industry itself is moving so rapidly, we're seeing server-less right now and functions of service, and so, I think the landscape is shifting away from what we would think of as either VM or container-based infrastructure service towards having the right abstractions. What I'm seeing is that, really, even the most innovative enterprises today don't really care about their per minute or per hour cost for a cycle of computer, a byte of, you know, network transferred or stored. They care about big table, big quarry, the natural language processing, visual search, and a whole category of these AI based applications that they want to base their own new revenue-generating products and services based on. So, it's abstraction now as a new battlefield. AWS brings that cult of modularity to it, they're delivering a lot of cool services that are very high level Lambda centered based on really cool modularity, whereas Google's doing it, which is very, very elegant abstraction. It's at the developer level, at the technical level, that's what the landscape is at right now. >> Are you happy with Google's approach because I think Google actually doesn't want to be compared to AWS in a way. I mean, from what I can see from the keynote... >> Only by revenue. (laughs) >> Well, certainly, they're going to win that by throwing G Suite on it but, I mean, this is, again, a philosophy game, right? I mean, Andy Jassy is very customer focused, but they don't have their own Sass app, except for Amazon which they don't count on the Cloud. So, their success is all about customers, building on Amazon. Google actually has its own customer and they actually include that in, as does Microsoft with Office 365. >> Yeah, that's the irony, is if we go back to enterprise empathy I think it's Microsoft has that legacy of understanding the enterprise better than all the others. And they're beginning to leverage that, we're definitely seeing, as you're sliding comfortably to a number two position behind AWS, but it really does come back to, you know, are you going to lead with a propeller head lead in technology which Google clearly has, they've got some of the most superior technology, we were rattling off some the speeds and feeds that one of their product managers shared with you this morning. They've had amazing technology, that's unquestioned. But they do have also is this reputation of almost flying in rarefied air when it comes to enterprises. >> What do you mean by that? >> What I mean by that is that most enterprise IT organizations, even the progressive ones, have a hard time relating to Google technology. It's too far out there, it's too advanced, in some cases, they just can't understand it. They've never been trained in college courses on it or even post-grad courses on it. MBA is older than three years old, don't even reference the Cloud. So, there's a lot of training, a lot of knowledge that has to be, you know, conducted on the enterprise side. AWS is packaged, that technology there is the modularity in such a way that's more consumable. Not perfect, but more consumable than any other Cloud render and that's why, with an early head start, they've got the biggest enterprise traction today. >> Yeah, I mean, and I'm really bullish on Google, I love the company, I've been following them since '98, a lot of friends here at Palo Alto, a lot of Googlers living in my neighborhood, they're all around us. Larry Page, seen him around town. Great, great company and very, always been kind of like an academic, speed of academic. Very strong, technically, and that is, clearly, they're playing that card, "We have the technology." So, I would just say that, to counter that argument would be if Google, I'm Google, I'm on the team, the guy in green and you know, lookit, what I want to do is, we want to be the intel for the Cloud. So, the hard and top is we don't really care if people are trained, should be so easy to use, training doesn't matter. So, I mean, that's really more of an arrogant approach, but I don't think Google's being arrogant in the Cloud. I think that ship has sailed, I think Google has kind of been humbled in the sense, in recognizing that the enterprise is hard, they're checking the boxes. They have a partner program. >> Yeah, you're right, I mean, if you take a look at their customers today, you've got Spotify, and Snap, and Evernote, and you know, Pokemon Go and Niantic, all of the leading edge technology companies that have gone mainstream that are, you know, startup oriented Snap, of course. They're on Google Cloud. But that's not enough, you know, the enterprise, I did a seminar just last week promoting Container World with Jim Forge from ADP. The enterprise is not homogeneous, the enterprise is complicated. The L word legacy is all over, what they have to budget and plan for. So, the enterprise is just a lot more complicated than Google will acknowledge right now. And I believe if they were to humanize some of their advanced technology and package it and price it in such a way that AWS, you know, where they're seeing success, they'll accelerate their inevitable sort of leap to being one of those top three contenders. >> So, I'm just reading some of my, I'm putting together because for the Google folks, I'm going to interview them, just prepping for this, but just networking alone, isolating Cloud resources. That's hard, right? So, you know, virtual network in the Cloud, Google's got the virtual network. You get multiple IP addresses, for instance, ability to move network interfaces and IPs between instances, and AS networking support. Network traffic logging, virtual network peering, manage NAT gateways, subnet level filtering, IP V stick support, use any CIDR including RC 1918. Multiple network interface instances, I mean, this is complicated! (laughs) It's not easy so, you know, I think the strategy's going to be interesting to see how, does Google go into the point to point solution set, or they just say, "This is what we got, take it or leave it," and try to change the game? >> That's where they've been up until now and I don't think it's working because they have very formidable competitors that are not standing still. So, I think they're going to have to keep upping their game, again, not in terms of better technology but in terms of better packaging, better accessibility to their technology. Better trust, if you will, overseas. Cloud is a global game, it's not US only. And trust is so critical, there's a lot of skepticism in Europe today with the latest Wikileaks announcements, or Asia Today around. Any American based Cloud provider truly being able to isolate and protect my citizen's data, you know, within my borders. >> I think Google Cloud has one fatal flaw that I, looking at all the data, is that and the analysis that we've been looking at with Bookie Bontine and our research is that there's one thing that jumps out at me. I mean, the rest are all, I look at as, you know, Google's got such great technologies, they can move up fast, they can scale up to code. But the one thing that's interesting is their architecture, the way they handle their architecture is they can't let customers dictate data where data's stored. That is a huge issue for them. And if, to your point, if a user in Germany is using an app and it's got to stay in Germany. >> This is back to the empathy disconnect, right? As an abstraction layer for a developer, what I want is exactly what Google offers. I don't want to care as a developer where the bits and bytes are stored, I want this consistent, uniform API, I want to do cool stuff with the data. The operation side, particularly within legal parameters, regulatory parameters, you know, all sorts of other costs and quality assurance parameters, they really care about where that data is stored, and that's where having more enterprise empathy, and their thinking, and their offerings, and their pricing, and their packaging will leapfrog Google to where they want to be today. >> Val Bercovici, great analysis, I mean, I would totally agree just to lock that in, their developer empathy is so strong. And their operational one needs to be, they got a blind spot there where they got to work on that. And this is interesting because people who don't know Google are very strong operations, it's not like they don't have any ops chops. (Val laughs) They're absolutely in the five nines, they are awesome operations. But they've been operations for themselves. >> Exactly. >> So, that's the distinction you're getting at, right? >> Absolutely. >> Okay, so the next question I got to ask you is back to the developer empathy, 'cause I think it's a really big opportunity for Google. So, pointing out the fatal flaw in my opinions in the data locality thing. But I think the opportunity for Google to change the game, using the developer community opportunity because you mentioned the Kubernetes. There is a huge, open source, I don't want to say transformation but an evolution to the next generation, you're starting to see machine learning and AI start to tease out the leverage of not just data now. Data's become so massive now, you have data sets. That can be addressable and be treated like software programs. So, data as code becomes a new dynamic with AI. So, with AI, with open source, you're seeing a lot of activity, CNCF, the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, folks should check that out, that's an amazing group, analytics foundation. This is an awesome opportunity for Google to use Kubernetes as saying, "Hey, we will make orchestration of application workloads." >> Absolutely. >> This is something, Amazon's been great with open source, but they don't get a lot of love... >> Amazon has a blind spot on containers, let's not, you know, let's not call, you know, let's call it the speed of speed, let's not, you know, beat around the bush, they do have a blind spot around containers. It is something they strategically have to get a hold of, they've got some really interesting proprietary offerings. But it's not a natural home for a Docker workflow, it's not a natural home for a Kubernetes workflow yet. And it's something they have to work on and AI as a use case could not be more pertinent to business today because it's that quote, you know, "The future is here "but unevenly distributed." That's exactly where AI is today, the businesses that are figuring it out are really leaping ahead of their competitors. >> We're getting some great tweets, my phone's blowing up. Val, you've got great commentary. I want to bring up, so, I've been kind of over the top with the comment that I've been making. It's maybe mischaracterized but I'll say it again. There seems to be a Cold War going on inside the communities between, as Kubernetes have done, we've seen doc, or we've seen Docker Containers be so successful in this service list, server list vision, which is absolutely where Cloud Native needs to be in that notion of, you know, separating out fiscal gear and addressability, making it completely transparent, full dev ops, if you will. To who's going to own the orchestration and where does it sit on the stack? And with Kubernetes, to me, is interesting is that it tugs at some sacred cows in the container world. >> Yes. >> And it opens up the notion of multi-Cloud. I mean, assume latency can be solved at some point, but... >> It's actually core religion, what impressed me about he whole Kubernetes community, and community is its greatest strength, by the way, is the fact that they had a religion on multi-Cloud from day one. It wasn't about, "We'll add it later "'cause we know it's important," it's about portability and you know, even Docker lent that to the community. Portability is just a number one priority and now portability, at scale, across multiple Clouds, dynamically orchestrated, not through, you know, potential for human error, human interventions we saw last week. That the secret sauce there to stay. >> I think not only is, a Cold War is a negative connotation, but I think it's an opportunity to be sitting in the sun, if you will, on the beach with a pina colada because if you take the Kubernetes trend that's got developer empathy with portability, that speaks to what developers want, I want to have the ability to write code, ship it up to the network, and have it integrate in nicely and seamlessly so, you know, things can self-work and do all that. And AI can help in all those things. Connecting with operational challenges. So, what is, in your mind, that intersection? Because let's just say that Kubernetes is going to develop a nice trajectory which it has now and continues to be a nice way to galvanize a community around orchestration, portability, etc. Where does that intersect with some of the challenges and needs for operational effectiveness and efficiency? >> So, the dirtiest secret in that world is data gravity, rigtht? It's all well and fine to have workload portability across, you know, multiple instances and a cluster across multiple Clouds, so to speak. But data has weight, data has mass and gravity, and it's very hard to move particularly at scale. Kubernetes only in the last few releases with a furious pace in evolution, one four, one five, has a notion of provisioning persistent volumes, this thing they affectionately called pet sets that are not a stateful sets, I love that name. >> Cattle. >> Exactly. (laughs) So, Google is waking up and Kubernetes, I should say, in particular is waking up to the whole notion of managing data is really that last mile problem of Cloud portability and operational maturity. And planning around data gravity and overcoming where you can data gravity through meta-operational procedures is where this thing is going to really take off. >> I think that's where Google, I like Google's messaging, I like their posture on machine learning AI, I think that's key. But Amazon has been doing AI, they've got machine learning as a service, they've had Kineses for a while. In fact, Redshift and Kineses were their fastest growing services before Aurora became the big thing that they had. So, I think, you know, they're interested in the jets, with the trucks, and the snowmobile stuff. So I think certainly, Amazon's been doing that data and then rolling in as some sort of AI. >> And they've been humanizing it better, right? I can relate to some of Amazon's offering and sometimes I have it in the house. You know, so, the packaging and just the consumerability of these Amazon services today is ahead of where Google is and Google arguably has the superior technology. >> Yeah, and I think, you know, I was laying out my analysis of Google versus Amazon but I think it's not fair to try to compare them too much because Google is just making their opening moves on the chessboard. Because they had Diane Green, got to give her credit, she's really starting behind. And that's been talked about but they are serious, they're going to get there. The question is what does an enterprise need to do? So, your advice to enterprise would be what? Stick with the use cases that are either Google specific apps or Cloud Native, where do you go, how do you...? >> I would say to remember the lock-in days of the Linux vendors and even Microsoft in their heyday and definitely think multi-Cloud, you know, Cloud first is fine. But think, we need data first in a Cloud before I think a particular Cloud first. Always keep your options open, seek the highest levels of abstraction, particularly as you're innovating early on and fast failing in the Cloud. Don't go low right away, go low later on when you're operationalizing and scaled and looking to squeeze efficiencies out of a new product or service. >> Don't go low, you mean don't go low in the stack? >> Don't go low in the stack, exactly. Start very high in the stack. >> What would be an example? >> Lambda, you know, taking advantage of, if we bring in Kineses, IOT workflows, all sorts of sensor data coming in from the Edge. Don't code that for efficiency day one and switch to Kafka or something else that's more sophisticated, but keep it really high level as events triggering off, whether it's the IOTICK in the sensor inputs or whether it's S3 events, Dynamo, DB events. Write your functions that are very, very high level. >> Yeah. >> Get the workflows right. Pay a bit more money up front, pay premium for the fast... >> Well, there's also Bootstraps and the Training Channel Digimation, so, with Google, pick some things that are known out there. But you mentioned IOT and one of the things I was kind of disappointed in the keynote today, there wasn't much talk about IOT. You're not seeing IOT in the Google story. >> That may come up in tomorrow's keynote, it may come up tomorrow in a more technical context. But you're right, it's an area both Agar and AWS have a monster of a lead right now, as they've had really good SDKs out there to be able to create workflows without even being an expert in some of the devices that you know, you might own and maintain. >> Google's got some differentiation, they've got something, I'll highlight one that I like that I think is really compelling. Tensor flow. Tensor flow as got a lot of great traction and then Intel is writing chips with their Skylake product that actually runs much faster silicon... >> What was that, Nvidia? You know, it's a GPU game as much as a CPU game when it comes to machine learning. And it's just... >> What does that mean for you? I mean, that's exciting, you smile on that, I get geeked out on that because if you think about that, if you can have a relationship between the silicon and software, what does it mean from an impact standpoint? Do you think that's going to be a good accelerant for the game? >> Massive accelerant, you know, and this is where we get into sort of more rarefied air with Elon Musk's quote around the fact we'll need universal income for society. There a lot of static tasks that are automated today. There's more and more dynamic tasks now that these AI algorithms, through machine learning, can be trained to conduct in a very intelligent manner. So, more and more task based work all over the world, including in a robotic context but also call centers, stock brokerage, for example, it's been demonstrated that AI ML algorithms are superior to humans nine times out of ten in terms of recommending stocks. So, there's a lot of white collars, while it's blue collared work that just going to be augmented and then eliminated with these technologies and the fact that you have major players, economies at scales such as Intel and Nvidia and so forth accelerating that, making it affordable, fast, low power in certain edge context. That's, you know, really good for the industry. >> So, day one of two days of coverage here with Google, just thoughts real quick on what Google needs to do to really conquer the enterprise and really be credible, viable, successful, number two, or leader in the enterprise? >> I'm a big fan, you know, I've had personal experiences with fast following as opposed to leading and innovating sometimes in terms of getting market traction. I think they should unabashedly, unashamedly examine what Microsoft or what Amazon are doing right in the Cloud. Because you know, simple things like conducting a bit more of a smooth keynote, Google doesn't seem to have mastered it yet, right now in the Cloud space. And it's not rocket science, but shamelessly copying what works, shamelessly copying the packaging and the humanization that some of the advanced technologies that Amazon and Microsoft have done in particular. And then applying their technical superiority, you know, their uptime availability advantages, their faster networks, their strong consistency which is a big deal for developers across their regions. Emphasizing their strengths after they package and make their technology more consumable. As opposed to leading where the tech specs. >> And you have a lot of experience in the enterprise, table stakes out there that are pretty obvious that they need to check the boxes on, and would be what? >> A very good question, I would say, first and foremost, you really have to focus on more, you know, transparent pricing. Think something that is a whole black art in terms of optimizing your AWS usage in this industry that's formed around that. I think Google has and they enact blogs advertising a lot of advantages they have in the granularity, in the efficiency of their auto scaling up and down. But businesses don't really map that, they don't think of that first even though it can save them millions of dollars as they do move to Cloud first approaches. >> Yeah and I think Google got to shake that academic arrogance, in a way, that they've had a reputation for. Not that that's a bad thing, I'll give you an example, I love the fact that Google leads a lot of price performance on many levels in the Cloud, yet their SLAs are kind of wonky here and there. So, it's like, okay, enterprises like SLAs. You got to nail that. And then maybe keep their price a little high here, it can make more money, but... So, you were saying, is that enterprise might not get the fact that it's such a good deal. >> It's like enterprise sales 101, you talk about, you know, the operational benefits but you also talk about financial benefits and business benefits. Catching into those three contexts in terms of their technical superiority would do them a world of good as they seek more and more enterprise opportunities. >> Alright, Val Bercovici, CTO, also CTO, and also on the board of the Cloud Native Compute Foundation known as CNCF, a newly formed organization, part of the Linux Foundation. Really looking at the orchestration, looking at the containers, looking at Kubernetes, looking at a whole new world of app enablement. Val, thanks for the company, great to see you. Turning out to be guest contributor here on the Cube studio, appreciate his time. This is the Cube, two days of live coverage. Hope to have someone from Google on the security and network side coming in and calling in, we're going to try to set that up, a lot of conversations happening around that. Lot of great stuff happening at Google Next, we've got all the wall-to-wall coverage, reporters on the ground in San Francisco as well as analysts. And of course, in studio reaction here in Palo Alto. We'll be right back. (ambient music)

(upbeat electronic music) >> Everyone, welcome to our special Mobile World Congress 2017 coverage. I'm John Furrier here in theCUBE for two days of wall-to-wall coverage. Monday and Tuesday, February 27th and 28th, and we have on the phone right now, Lynn Comp, who's the Senior Director of the Network Platforms Group within Intel, part of the team doing the whole network transformation. The big announcements that went out prior to Mobile World Congress and hitting the ground on Monday and Tuesday of all next week in Barcelona. Lynn, great to have you on the phone. Thanks for taking the time to walk through some of the big announcements. >> Lynn: Thanks, John, for having us. It's a really exciting Mobile World Congress. We're seeing more and more of the promise of the next generation networks starting to take solution form from ingredient form a couple years ago, so it's a great, great time to be in this business. >> So 5G is happening now. You're seeing it in the network and the cloud and at the client, that you guys use the word "client" but essentially, it's the people with their smartphones and devices, wearables, AIs, and now the client is now cars, and flying drones and potentially, whatever else is connected to the Internet as an Internet of things. This has been a really big moment and I think I want to take some time to kind of unpack with you some of the complexities and kind of what's going on under the hood because 4G to 5G is a huge step up in the announcement and capabilities, and it's not just another device. There's really unique intellectual property involved, there's more power, there's a market leadership in the ecosystem, and really is a new way for service providers to achieve profitability, and get those products that are trying to connect, that need more power, more bandwidth, more capabilities. Can you take a minute just to talk about the key announcements impacting Mobile World Congress from Intel's perspective this week in your area? >> Lynn: Yeah, so we had a group of announcements that came out. Everything from solutions labs where operators are invited in to work with Nokia and Intel starting out to start working through what does it mean to try and manage a network that includes unlicensed and licensed spectrum and all these different usage models, very different model for them, to Ericsson, an initiative with GE and Honeywell and Intel, that is in Innovator's Initiative, where companies are invited to come in in the ecosystem. An early start working through what does it mean to have this kind of network capability? If you think what happened, 2G, 3G, to 4G, you start looking at the iPhone, been around for 10 years, and you've seen how the uses have changed, and how application developers have come up with completely new ways of doing things, like, who would have thought about crowdsourcing traffic patterns for driving directions? We all wanted it years ago, but it was just recently that we were able to have that on a smartphone. They're trying to unleash that with pretty unique companies. I mean, GE and Honeywell, UC Berkeley, you wouldn't necessarily think of them as being first on innovating new usage models for a wireless network, but with something like 5G, with all of these diverse use cases, you end up with a completely different ecosystem, really wanting to come in early and take advantage of the potential that's there. >> Lynn, talk about this end-to-end store because one of the things that got hidden in all the news, and certainly SiliconANGLE covered it, as well as, there was a great article in Fortune about it, but kind of talk about more of the 5G versus Qualcomm, that was kind of the big story that, the battle of the chips, if you will, and the big 5G angle there, but there's more to it and one thing that caught my attention was this end-to-end architecture, and it wasn't just Intel. You guys are a big part of that as an ingredient, but it's not just Intel, and what does that mean, end-to-end, 'cause I can see the wireless pieces and overlaying connecting devices, but where's the end-to-end fit in? Can you give some color on that? >> Lynn: Absolutely. You know what's really fascinating is you've got Intel and we've been in the cloud and heard of the genesis of what would become the consumer and the enterprise cloud from the very start, and so what we've been doing in working in that end-to-end arena is taking things like virtualization, which has allowed these service providers and enterprises to slice up compute resources and instead of having something that's completely locked and dedicated on one workload, they can create slices of different applications that all sit on the same hardware and share it, and so if you look, years ago, many of the service providers, cloud and enterprise, they were looking at utilization rights as maybe 15% of the compute power of a server, and now, a lot of them are aiming for 75 to 85% utilization, and that's just a crazy amount of (mumbles) so bringing that to this market that in traditional, we had single purpose boxes, there's various detections for one thing, but that creates a business challenge if you need to do more than one thing, so really what we're showing, for example, at Mobile World Congress, it's something that we call FlexRAN, and it's an example of how to run a radio area network on a standard server on the technology, and it does implement that network slicing. Its's very similar to the virtualization and the compute slicing, but taking advantage of it to use different bandwidths and different rates for different scenarios, whether IoT or smartphones, or even connected cars. >> So I got to ask you about, the big question I get is, first of all, thanks for that, but the big question I get is, this isn't turning into an app show, we're Mobile World Congress, and apps are everything from cars to just phone apps to network apps, et cetera, and the question that everyone's asking is, we need more bandwidth, and certainly, 5G addresses that, but the service providers are saying, "Do we really need all that power? And "When is it coming?" "What's the timing of all this?" So, specific question to you is, Lynn, is what is Intel doing to accelerate the network transformation for the service providers to get 5G ready, 'cause that seems to be the main theme as the orientation of where the progress bar is relative to is it ready for primetime, is it here and now, is it out in the future, is this kind of a pre-announcement, so there's kind of some confusion. Clarify that up. Where's the progress bar and how is Intel accelerating network transformation for folks in the service provider vis-a-vis 5G-ready? >> Lynn: So there's a couple things. So let me start with the accelerating piece because it also relates to the end-to-end piece. When you look at the way that networks have been constructed all the way, end-to-end, it has traditionally been a very, very limited set of solution providers, and they tend to survive pretty granular, pretty high-granular functions, so the appliance, the full appliance, software, hardware, everything, and I would look at some of the smartphones up until you could put new applications on it, as appliances, it did voice, and so, we have this service provider begging us for many years, "Give us an ecosystem that looks like server and PC. "I want a building block ecosystem. "I want to be able to take advantage of fast and free wires "in software and hardware. "I need people to come innovate, "like they go innovate on Amazon," and so building an ecosystem, so Intel Network Builders is something that was started about three years ago, and we had, oh, half dozen to maybe 12 different vendors who were part of it, mostly software vendors. Since then, we have 250-plus number and they range from service providers like GT and Telefonica all the way to the hardware vendors like Cisco and Ericsson, and then the software vendors that you would expect. So that's one thing that we've been really working, for a few years now, on giving these operators building block approaches, supporting them in open source. We had a big announcement from AT&T, talking about how they're putting about seven millions lines of code into the Linux Foundation, and its code has been deployed in their network already, so pretty big departure from normal practice, and then today, we had an announcement that came out, where not only did AT&T and Bell Canada and Orange in that community. Now we've got China Mobile, China Telecom, and a project called Open-O, also joining forces. If you were to map out the topics for these operators, we've got almost all of the top ten. They are joining this project to completely change the way that they run their networks, and that translates into the kind of innovation, the kind of applications that consumers love, that they're already getting out of the cloud, now they can begin to get that piece of innovation and creativity in the network as well. So the building block approach seems to be your strategy for the ecosystem. What's the challenge to keep that rolling and cohesive? How are you guys going to foster that growth on the ecosystem? You guys going to be doing a lot of joint marketing, funding, projects, and (chuckles) how are you going to foster that continuing growth? >> Lynn: Well there's a couple, it's such an opportunity-rich environment right now. Even things that you would assume would be normal and kind of standard practice, like standardized benchmarking, because you want apples-to-apples performance comparison. Well that's something that this industry really hasn't had. We've done very conceptualized testing, so we're working with the operators in a project called OPNSG to make sure that the operators have a uniform way, even if it's synthetic benchmark, but they at least understand this synthetic benchmark has this kind of performance, so they start really being able to translate and have the vendors do comparisons on paper, and they can actually do better comparisons without having to do six months of testing, so that's a really big deal. The other thing that I do want to also say about 5G is we're in a pre-standards world right now. ITU and 3GPP will have standards dropped in 2018 and 2020 is when it will be final, but every time that you're looking at a new wireless standard, there's a lot of pretrials that are happening, and that's because you want to test before you state everything has to work a specific way, so there was a trial just announced in December, with Erisson, AT&T in Austin, Texas in the Intel offices, and so if you happen to be in that office, you're starting to be able to experiment with what you could possibly get out of 5G. You'll see more of that with the Olympics in 2018 and 2020, where you've got, Japan and Korea have said we're going to have 5G at those Olympics. >> So I got to ask you some of the questions that we are going to have some guests on here in theCUBE in the Palo Alto coverage around NFV, network function virtualization, plays right into the software-defined networking virtualization world, so why is NFV and SDN so vital to the network transformation? Why now and what's happening in those two areas, and what's the enabler? >> Lynn: The enabler really started about 10 years ago, the real inspiration for it, when we were all in a world of packet processing engines and network processors, and we had some people in our research labs that realized that a lot of the efficiency in doing packet processing quickly came from parallelism, and we knew there were about two or three years to wait, but that was when multi-core came out, and so this thing called data plane development kit was born. We've referred to it as DPDK. It's now an industry organization, not an Intel invention anymore. The industry's starting to foster it. Now is really when the operators realized, "I can run a network on a general purpose processor." (coughs) Excuse me, so they can use cores for running operating systems and applications, of course, they always do that for compute cores, but they can also use the compute cores for passing packets back and forth. The line rates that we're getting are astonishing. 160 gigabits per second, which at the time, we were getting six million packets per second. Very unimpressive 10 years ago, but now, for many of those applications, we're at line rate, so that allows you to then separate the hardware and the software, which is where virtualization comes in, and when you do that, you aren't actually embedding software and hardware together in creating an appliance that, if you needed to do a software update, you might as well update the hardware, too, 'cause there's absolutely no new software load that can happen unless you're in an environment with virtualization or something like containers. So that's why NFV, network function virtualization is important. Gives the operator the ability to use general purpose processors for more than one thing, and have the ability to have future proofing of workloads where a new application or a new use becomes really popular, you don't have to issue new hardware, they just need to spin up the new virtual machine and be able to put function in it. >> So that, I got-- >> Lynn: If you went back and, we were talking about 5G and all of this new way of managing the network, now management in orchestration, it's really important but SDN is also really critical, both for cloud and for comm, because it gives you one map of the connections on the network, so you know what is connected where, and it gives you the ability to remotely change how the servers or how the hardware is connected together. If you were going to ask the CIO, "What's your biggest problem today?" they would tell you that it's almost impossible for them to be able to spin up a fully functional, new application that meets all the security protocols because they don't have a network map of everything that's connected to everything. They don't really have an easy way to be able to issue a command and then have all of the reconfigurations happen. A lot of the information's embedded in router tables. >> Yeah. >> Lynn: So it makes it very, very hard to take advantage of a really complicated network connection map, and be agile. That's where SDN comes in. It just kind of like a command control center, whereas NFV gives them the ability to have agility and spin up new functions very quickly. >> Yeah, and certainly that's where the good security part of the action is. Lynn, I want to get your final thoughts on the final question is this Mobile World Congress, it really encapsulates years and years in the industry of kind of a tipping point, and this is kind of my observation, and I want to get your thoughts on this and reaction to it, is the telcos and the service providers are finally at a moment where there's been so much pressure on the business model. We heard this, you can go on back many, many years ago, "Oh, over the top, " and you're starting to see more and more pressure. This seems to be the year that people have a focus on seeing a straight and narrow set of solutions, building blocks and a ecosystem that poised to go to the next level, where there can be a business model that actually can scale, whether it's scaling the edge, or having the core of the network work well, and up and down the stack. Can you talk about the key challenges that these service providers have to do to address that key profitability equation that being a sustainable entity rather than being the pipes? >> Lynn: Well it comes down to being able to respond to the needs of the user. I will refer to a couple demos that we have in the data center section of our booth, and one of them is so impressive to China Telecom that have put together on complete commercial off-the-shelf hardware that a cloud vendor might use. A demo that shows 4K video running from a virtualized, fixed wireline connection, so one of the cable kind of usage. Now 4K video goes over a virtualized environment from a cable-like environment, to what we call virtual INF, and that's the way that you get different messages passed between different kinds of systems. So INF is wireless, so they've got 4K video from cable out to a wireless capability, running in a virtualized environment at performance in hardware that can be used in the cloud, it could be used in communication service providers 'cause it's general purpose. That kind of capability gives a company like China Telecom the flexibility they need, so with 5G, it's the usage model for 5G that's most important. Turns out to be fixed wireless, because it's so expensive for them to deploy in fiber, well, they have the ability to do it and they can spin it up, maybe not in real time, but certainly, it's not going to take a three-month rollout. >> Yes, and-- >> Lynn: So hopefully, that gives you one example. >> Well that's great enablement 'cause in a lot of execution, well, I thought it gave me one more idea for a question, so since I have my final, final question for you is, what are you most excited about 'cause you sounded super excited with that demo. What other exciting things are happening in the Intel demo area from Intel that's exciting for you, that you could share with the folks listening and watching? >> Lynn: So, I used to never be a believer in augmented reality. (John chuckling) I thought, who's going to walk around with goggles, it's just silly, (coughs) it seemed to me like a toy and maybe I shouldn't admit that on a radio show but I became a believer, and I started to really understand how powerful it could be when Pokemon Go took over all the world in over the summer, to this, an immersive experience, and it's sort of reality, but you're interacting with a brand, or in the booth, we have a really cool virtual reality demo and it was with Nokia next and it's showing 5G network transformation. The thing about virtual reality, we have to really have low latency for it to feel real, quote-unquote, and so, it harnesses the power that we can see just emerging with 5G, and then we get this really great immersive experience, so that, I think, is one that innovate how popular brands like Disney or Disney World or Disneyland, that immersive experience, so I think we're just starting to scratch the surface on the opportunities there. >> Lynn, thanks so much for spending the time. Know you got to go and run. Thanks so much for the commentary. We are low latency here inside theCUBE, bringing you all the action. It's a good title for a show, low latency. Really fast, bringing all the action. Lynn, thanks so much for sharing the color and congratulations on your success at Mobile World Congress and looking forward to getting more post-show, post-mortem after the event's over. Thanks for taking the time. We'll be back with more coverage of Mobile World Congress for a special CUBE live in studio in Palo Alto, covering all the action in Barcelona on Monday and Tuesday, 27th and 28th. I'm John Furrier. Wrap it with more after this short break, thanks for watching. (upbeat electronic music) (bright electronic music)