>>Hey everyone. Welcome to Las Vegas. The Cube is here, live at the Venetian Expo Center for AWS Reinvent 2022. Amazing attendance. This is day one of our coverage. Lisa Martin here with Day Ante. David is great to see so many people back. We're gonna be talk, we've been having great conversations already. We have a wall to wall coverage for the next three and a half days. When we talk to companies, customers, every company has to be a data company. And one of the things I think we learned in the pandemic is that access to real time data and real time analytics, no longer a nice to have that is a differentiator and a competitive all >>About data. I mean, you know, I love the topic and it's, it's got so many dimensions and such texture, can't get enough of data. >>I know we have a great guest joining us. One of our alumni is back, Evan Kaplan, the CEO of Influx Data. Evan, thank you so much for joining us. Welcome back to the Cube. >>Thanks for having me. It's great to be here. So here >>We are, day one. I was telling you before we went live, we're nice and fresh hosts. Talk to us about what's new at Influxed since the last time we saw you at Reinvent. >>That's great. So first of all, we should acknowledge what's going on here. This is pretty exciting. Yeah, that does really feel like, I know there was a show last year, but this feels like the first post Covid shows a lot of energy, a lot of attention despite a difficult economy. In terms of, you know, you guys were commenting in the lead into Big data. I think, you know, if we were to talk about Big Data five, six years ago, what would we be talking about? We'd been talking about Hadoop, we were talking about Cloudera, we were talking about Hortonworks, we were talking about Big Data Lakes, data stores. I think what's happened is, is this this interesting dynamic of, let's call it if you will, the, the secularization of data in which it breaks into different fields, different, almost a taxonomy. You've got this set of search data, you've got this observability data, you've got graph data, you've got document data and what you're seeing in the market and now you have time series data. >>And what you're seeing in the market is this incredible capability by developers as well and mostly open source dynamic driving this, this incredible capability of developers to assemble data platforms that aren't unicellular, that aren't just built on Hado or Oracle or Postgres or MySQL, but in fact represent different data types. So for us, what we care about his time series, we care about anything that happens in time, where time can be the primary measurement, which if you think about it, is a huge proportion of real data. Cuz when you think about what drives ai, you think about what happened, what happened, what happened, what happened, what's going to happen. That's the functional thing. But what happened is always defined by a period, a measurement, a time. And so what's new for us is we've developed this new open source engine called IOx. And so it's basically a refresh of the whole database, a kilo database that uses Apache Arrow, par K and data fusion and turns it into a super powerful real time analytics platform. It was already pretty real time before, but it's increasingly now and it adds SQL capability and infinite cardinality. And so it handles bigger data sets, but importantly, not just bigger but faster, faster data. So that's primarily what we're talking about to show. >>So how does that affect where you can play in the marketplace? Is it, I mean, how does it affect your total available market? Your great question. Your, your customer opportunities. >>I think it's, it's really an interesting market in that you've got all of these different approaches to database. Whether you take data warehouses from Snowflake or, or arguably data bricks also. And you take these individual database companies like Mongo Influx, Neo Forge, elastic, and people like that. I think the commonality you see across the volume is, is many of 'em, if not all of them, are based on some sort of open source dynamic. So I think that is an in an untractable trend that will continue for on. But in terms of the broader, the broader database market, our total expand, total available tam, lots of these things are coming together in interesting ways. And so the, the, the wave that will ride that we wanna ride, because it's all big data and it's all increasingly fast data and it's all machine learning and AI is really around that measurement issue. That instrumentation the idea that if you're gonna build any sophisticated system, it starts with instrumentation and the journey is defined by instrumentation. So we view ourselves as that instrumentation tooling for understanding complex systems. And how, >>I have to follow quick follow up. Why did you say arguably data bricks? I mean open source ethos? >>Well, I was saying arguably data bricks cuz Spark, I mean it's a great company and it's based on Spark, but there's quite a gap between Spark and what Data Bricks is today. And in some ways data bricks from the outside looking in looks a lot like Snowflake to me looks a lot like a really sophisticated data warehouse with a lot of post-processing capabilities >>And, and with an open source less >>Than a >>Core database. Yeah. Right, right, right. Yeah, I totally agree. Okay, thank you for that >>Part that that was not arguably like they're, they're not a good company or >>No, no. They got great momentum and I'm just curious. Absolutely. You know, so, >>So talk a little bit about IOx and, and what it is enabling you guys to achieve from a competitive advantage perspective. The key differentiators give us that scoop. >>So if you think about, so our old storage engine was called tsm, also open sourced, right? And IOx is open sourced and the old storage engine was really built around this time series measurements, particularly metrics, lots of metrics and handling those at scale and making it super easy for developers to use. But, but our old data engine only supported either a custom graphical UI that you'd build yourself on top of it or a dashboarding tool like Grafana or Chronograph or things like that. With IOCs. Two or three interventions were important. One is we now support, we'll support things like Tableau, Microsoft, bi, and so you're taking that same data that was available for instrumentation and now you're using it for business intelligence also. So that became super important and it kind of answers your question about the expanded market expands the market. The second thing is, when you're dealing with time series data, you're dealing with this concept of cardinality, which is, and I don't know if you're familiar with it, but the idea that that it's a multiplication of measurements in a table. And so the more measurements you want over the more series you have, you have this really expanding exponential set that can choke a database off. And the way we've designed IIS to handle what we call infinite cardinality, where you don't even have to think about that design point of view. And then lastly, it's just query performance is dramatically better. And so it's pretty exciting. >>So the unlimited cardinality, basically you could identify relationships between data and different databases. Is that right? Between >>The same database but different measurements, different tables, yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah. So you can handle, so you could say, I wanna look at the way, the way the noise levels are performed in this room according to 400 different locations on 25 different days, over seven months of the year. And that each one is a measurement. Each one adds to cardinality. And you can say, I wanna search on Tuesdays in December, what the noise level is at 2:21 PM and you get a very quick response. That kind of instrumentation is critical to smarter systems. How are >>You able to process that data at at, in a performance level that doesn't bring the database to its knees? What's the secret sauce behind that? >>It's AUM database. It's built on Parque and Apache Arrow. But it's, but to say it's nice to say without a much longer conversation, it's an architecture that's really built for pulling that kind of data. If you know the data is time series and you're looking for a time measurement, you already have the ability to optimize pretty dramatically. >>So it's, it's that purpose built aspect of it. It's the >>Purpose built aspect. You couldn't take Postgres and do the same >>Thing. Right? Because a lot of vendors say, oh yeah, we have time series now. Yeah. Right. So yeah. Yeah. Right. >>And they >>Do. Yeah. But >>It's not, it's not, the founding of the company came because Paul Dicks was working on Wall Street building time series databases on H base, on MyQ, on other platforms and realize every time we do it, we have to rewrite the code. We build a bunch of application logic to handle all these. We're talking about, we have customers that are adding hundreds of millions to billions of points a second. So you're talking about an ingest level. You know, you think about all those data points, you're talking about ingest level that just doesn't, you know, it just databases aren't designed for that. Right? And so it's not just us, our competitors also build good time series databases. And so the category is really emergent. Yeah, >>Sure. Talk about a favorite customer story they think really articulates the value of what Influx is doing, especially with IOx. >>Yeah, sure. And I love this, I love this story because you know, Tesla may not be in favor because of the latest Elon Musker aids, but, but, but so we've had about a four year relationship with Tesla where they built their power wall technology around recording that, seeing your device, seeing the stuff, seeing the charging on your car. It's all captured in influx databases that are reporting from power walls and mega power packs all over the world. And they report to a central place at, at, at Tesla's headquarters and it reports out to your phone and so you can see it. And what's really cool about this to me is I've got two Tesla cars and I've got a Tesla solar roof tiles. So I watch this date all the time. So it's a great customer story. And actually if you go on our website, you can see I did an hour interview with the engineer that designed the system cuz the system is super impressive and I just think it's really cool. Plus it's, you know, it's all the good green stuff that we really appreciate supporting sustainability, right? Yeah. >>Right, right. Talk about from a, what's in it for me as a customer, what you guys have done, the change to IOCs, what, what are some of the key features of it and the key values in it for customers like Tesla, like other industry customers as well? >>Well, so it's relatively new. It just arrived in our cloud product. So Tesla's not using it today. We have a first set of customers starting to use it. We, the, it's in open source. So it's a very popular project in the open source world. But the key issues are, are really the stuff that we've kind of covered here, which is that a broad SQL environment. So accessing all those SQL developers, the same people who code against Snowflake's data warehouse or data bricks or Postgres, can now can code that data against influx, open up the BI market. It's the cardinality, it's the performance. It's really an architecture. It's the next gen. We've been doing this for six years, it's the next generation of everything. We've seen how you make time series be super performing. And that's only relevant because more and more things are becoming real time as we develop smarter and smarter systems. The journey is pretty clear. You instrument the system, you, you let it run, you watch for anomalies, you correct those anomalies, you re instrument the system. You do that 4 billion times, you have a self-driving car, you do that 55 times, you have a better podcast that is, that is handling its audio better, right? So everything is on that journey of getting smarter and smarter. So >>You guys, you guys the big committers to IOCs, right? Yes. And how, talk about how you support the, develop the surrounding developer community, how you get that flywheel effect going >>First. I mean it's actually actually a really kind of, let's call it, it's more art than science. Yeah. First of all, you you, you come up with an architecture that really resonates for developers. And Paul Ds our founder, really is a developer's developer. And so he started talking about this in the community about an architecture that uses Apache Arrow Parque, which is, you know, the standard now becoming for file formats that uses Apache Arrow for directing queries and things like that and uses data fusion and said what this thing needs is a Columbia database that sits behind all of this stuff and integrates it. And he started talking about it two years ago and then he started publishing in IOCs that commits in the, in GitHub commits. And slowly, but over time in Hacker News and other, and other people go, oh yeah, this is fundamentally right. >>It addresses the problems that people have with things like click cows or plain databases or Coast and they go, okay, this is the right architecture at the right time. Not different than original influx, not different than what Elastic hit on, not different than what Confluent with Kafka hit on and their time is you build an audience of people who are committed to understanding this kind of stuff and they become committers and they become the core. Yeah. And you build out from it. And so super. And so we chose to have an MIT open source license. Yeah. It's not some secondary license competitors can use it and, and competitors can use it against us. Yeah. >>One of the things I know that Influx data talks about is the time to awesome, which I love that, but what does that mean? What is the time to Awesome. Yeah. For developer, >>It comes from that original story where, where Paul would have to write six months of application logic and stuff to build a time series based applications. And so Paul's notion was, and this was based on the original Mongo, which was very successful because it was very easy to use relative to most databases. So Paul developed this commitment, this idea that I quickly joined on, which was, hey, it should be relatively quickly for a developer to build something of import to solve a problem, it should be able to happen very quickly. So it's got a schemaless background so you don't have to know the schema beforehand. It does some things that make it really easy to feel powerful as a developer quickly. And if you think about that journey, if you feel powerful with a tool quickly, then you'll go deeper and deeper and deeper and pretty soon you're taking that tool with you wherever you go, it becomes the tool of choice as you go to that next job or you go to that next application. And so that's a fundamental way we think about it. To be honest with you, we haven't always delivered perfectly on that. It's generally in our dna. So we do pretty well, but I always feel like we can do better. >>So if you were to put a bumper sticker on one of your Teslas about influx data, what would it >>Say? By the way, I'm not rich. It just happened to be that we have two Teslas and we have for a while, we just committed to that. The, the, so ask the question again. Sorry. >>Bumper sticker on influx data. What would it say? How, how would I >>Understand it be time to Awesome. It would be that that phrase his time to Awesome. Right. >>Love that. >>Yeah, I'd love it. >>Excellent time to. Awesome. Evan, thank you so much for joining David, the >>Program. It's really fun. Great thing >>On Evan. Great to, you're on. Haven't Well, great to have you back talking about what you guys are doing and helping organizations like Tesla and others really transform their businesses, which is all about business transformation these days. We appreciate your insights. >>That's great. Thank >>You for our guest and Dave Ante. I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching The Cube, the leader in emerging and enterprise tech coverage. We'll be right back with our next guest.

(upbeat music) >> Hey everyone. Welcome back to Las Vegas. The Cube is live. I can't say that enough. We are alive at AWS re:Invent 2021. Lisa Martin with Dave Nicholson. Hey Dave. >> Hey Lisa. >> Having a good day so far. >> So far, so good. >> We have an alumni back with us. We have about a hundred segments on the cube at AWS remit. We've got one of our original alumni back with us. Zaki Bajwa joins us the global head of partner solution engineers at Stripe. Zaki welcome back. >> Thank you, Lisa, thank you, Dave. Pleasure to be here. >> Lisa: Isn't it great to be back in person? >> Love it. Love it. Can't do a whiteboard virtually, you can, it's not the same. >> It's not the same and all those conversations I'm sure that you've had with partners and with customers the last couple of days that you just can't replicate that over zoom. >> Zaki: Exactly. >> So just for anyone who doesn't understand, AWS has a massive ecosystem of partners. So we'll get to talk about Stripe and AWS, but for anyone that doesn't know what Stripe is, give us the lowdown. You guys started 10 years ago. Talk to us about Stripe, the business strategy, what it's like today. >> Yeah, sure. So you guys know Stripe started 10 years ago by two brothers, John and Patrick Collison. And they've really focused on the developer and helping the developers accelerate digital commerce. Why? Cause the status quo at the time was one where a developer needed to, you know, build banking relationships with issuing banks, merchant banks, card networks, payment networks, tax liabilities, data compliance, and all of these manual processes that they had to deal with. So what Stripe aspires to do is build a complete commerce platform. Leveraging our integrated suite of products that is really allowing us to build what we call the global payments and treasury network. So if you think about the global payment and treasury network or what we call the G P T N it's meant to not only help abstract all of that complexity from a global payment infrastructure point of view, but also help move money in a simple and borderless and a programmable way just like we do in the internet. So that's the core essence of Stripe is to build this global payment treasury network to allow for money movement to happen in a simple and borderless manner. >> Simple and borderless two key things there. How has the business strategy evolved in the last 10 years and specifically in the last 20, 22 months? >> Yeah. Great question. So as you can imagine with COVID, you know, David you can order a cup of coffee or a brand new car, and that whole direct to consumer model has accelerated in COVID right. We've accelerated ourselves going to upwards of 6,000 employees. We've been able to answer or manage upwards of 170 billion API requests in the last 12 months alone. Right we deliver upwards of five nines from a availability performance point of view. That means 13 seconds of downtime or less a month. And we're doing this originally starting off for the developer David as you talked about allowing developers to deliver, you know, what I call process payments, accept payments and reconcile payments. But the evolution that you're talking about Lisa has really led to three key areas of focus that our users are requesting from us. And Stripe's first operating principle is really that user first mentality similar to the Amazons where we listen to our users and they're really asking for three key areas of focus. Number one is all around modernizing their digital commerce. So this is big enterprises coming to us and saying, whether I'm a uni lever or a Ford, how do you help me with a direct to consumer a e-commerce type platform? Number one. Secondly, is companies like Deliveroo and Lyft creating what we call marketplaces. Also think about Twitter and clubhouse, more solopreneurs entrepreneurs kind of marketplaces. Third is all around SaaS business models. So think about slack and Atlassian. That are customer vivers and accelerating the journey with us around digitizing digital commerce. So that's the first area of evolution. The second area is all around what we call embedded FinTech. So we know just like Amazon helped accelerate infrastructure as a service, platform as a service and function as a service. We're helping accelerate FinTech as a service. So we believe every company in every industry aspires to add more and more FinTech capabilities in their core services that they offer to their customers. So think about a Shopify or a Lyft they're adding more FinTech capabilities, leveraging Stripe APIs that they offer to their consumers. Likewise, when you think about a Monzo bank or a and 26, what we call Neo banks. They're creating more banking as a service component so a second area of evolution is all around FinTech as a service or embedded FinTech. And the third area of focus again, listen to our users is all around users are saying. Hey, Stripe, you have our financial data. How do you help us more with business operations and automating and optimizing our business operations? So this is revenue management, revenue reconciliation, financial reporting, all of the business processes, you and I know, code to cash, order to cash, pay to procure. Help us automate, optimize, and not just optimize, but help us create net new business models. So these are the three key areas of evolution that we've seen modernizing digital commerce, embedded FinTech, and then certainly last but not least business operations and automating that. >> And your target audience is the developers. Or are you having conversations now that are more, I mean, this is like transformative to industries and disruptive. Are you having conversations higher up in the chain? >> Great, great question. And this is the parallel with Amazon, just like Amazon started with developers, AWS. And then what up to the C-suite, if you will, we're seeing the same exact thing. Obviously our DNA is developer first making it intuitive, natural easy for developers to build on Stripe. But we're seeing more and more C-suite leaders come to us and saying, help us evolve our business model, help us modernize and digitize net new business models to get new revenue streams. So those parallel work streams are both developer mindset and C-suite led is certainly a big evolution for us. And we're looking to learn from our Amazon friends as to the success that they've had there. >> Do you have any examples of projects that developers have proposed that were at first glance, completely outlandish? Something that, you know, is there any sort of corner of the chart use case where Stripe didn't think of it, some developer came up with the idea, maybe it can't be done yet. If you have an example of that, that would be very interesting. >> Yeah, I'll give you two examples. So as I said, we're definitely a user first entity. That's our operating principle. We always think about the user. So let me go to developers and say, what are you struggling with? What are you thinking about? What are the next set of things you need from us? And a simple comment around tax started to come up and do you know in the U S there's 11,000 tax jurisdictions that you and you're selling something online have to abide to these different jurisdictions. So one of the things that we then evolved into is created a Stripe tax product, which initially users or developers were really struggling with and working on. So we created a Stripe tax product. We've done an acquisition called tax jar that helps us accelerate that journey for tax. The other one is this notion of low code that we see in the marketplace right now, where developers saying. Hey, give me more embeddables on top of the primitives that you've created on top of the APIs. So we went leveraging what our customers have already done, created things like a checkout capability, which is a simple redirect highly customized for conversion, which you can just integrate to one API. You have a full checkout capability. You can embed that into your platform, which didn't exist before and needed you to really integrate into different APIs. So all of these capabilities are what developers have really focused on and built that we've done leverage and Excel on. >> Yeah, I think between Lisa and myself, we've paid taxes in about 7,000 of those >> Lisa: Yeah, probably. >> Not 11,000 jurisdictions, but all the various sales taxes and everything else. So we're sort of familiar with it. >> I think so, so here we are, you know, on the floor at re-invent. Great, as we said to be back in person, the 10th annual, but with, as each year goes by AWS has a ecosystem of partners gets bigger and bigger. The flywheel gets, I don't know, I think faster and faster, the number of announcements that came out yesterday and today talk to us about some of the common traits that Stripe and AWS share. >> Yeah. So I've mentioned a few of them. One is certainly the user first mentality where we're listening to users. That tax example is a perfect one of how do we decide new features, new capability based on user first, Amazon does that better than anyone else. Second is that developer mindset focus on the developer. Those will be the core persona we target give you an example, Lyft, we all know Lyft. They wanted to create instant payouts for their drivers. So their developers came to us and say, our developers don't want to get paid. I'm sorry. Our drivers don't want to get paid in a week or two weeks. So we work with their developers who create a instant payout mechanism. Now in six months, over 40% of their drivers are using Stripe instant payout powered by Stripe. And that's a developer first mindset again, back to AWS. And then the third is really around the go to market. And the market opportunity is very similar. You talked about the developer persona and the C-suite very similar to Amazon. But also we're not just catering to enterprise and strategic big customers. We are just so much focused on startups, SMB, mid-market, digital native, just like Amazon is. And I would say the last parallel, which is probably the most important one is innovation. I come from enterprise software where we looked at monthly, quarterly, biannual, annual release cycles. Well, as Stripe, all of that goes out the door just like Amazon. We may have a hundred to a thousand APIs in motion at any time in alpha beta production. And just like Amazon we're iterating and releasing new innovations consistently. So I would say that's probably the most important one that we have with Amazon. >> So a lot of synergies there like deep integrated trusted partner synergies it sounds like. >> Agreed, definitely and then we're seeing this. I was going more as we are going more up market. We're seeing a demand for end to end solutions that require integrations with a CRM vendor for customer 360 with our accounting vendor for pivotal procure order to cash, billing accounting with a e-commerce company like Adobe Magento to do better econ. So more end to end solutions with these tech partners, we're working with our GSI to help deliver those end to end solutions. And certainly, but not least the dev agencies who are still sort of our core constituents that help us keep relevant with those developers. >> You mentioned this at the outset, but some things bear repeating. Can you go into a little more detail on the difference between me wanting to start up a business and take credit cards as payment 10 years ago? Let's say versus today, how much of the friction have you removed from that system? >> It is literally an hour to two hour process versus weeks and months before. >> But what are those steps? Like who would I, you mentioned this, again you mentioned this already, but the go through that, go through that again who would I have to reach out to, to make this happen? And we were talking, you know, relationships with banks, et cetera, et cetera. >> Yeah. So it starts at initiating and registering that company. So imagine you going and having to register a company today, you can do that with a Stripe Atlas product in a matter of hours, get your EIN number, get your tax jurisdictions on your registration as a Delaware entity within the U S you can be anywhere at globally and go do that within a matter of one hour. That's number one, you start there. From there, then it's a matter of embedding payment embeddables within your e-commerce platform, marketplace platform, et cetera. As you've heard us talk about seven lines of code to get payments going, you can quickly onboard accept payments, process payments, reconcile payments all within an hour. And that's just the start. But now you get into more complex use cases around marketplaces and multi-party connection. Multi-party payouts, different commission rates, different subscription models. Think about a flat tier model, a metered tier model, all of these different things that we've abstracted and allow you to just use one to three different integrations to help accelerate and use that in your digital commerce platform. So all of these different workflows have is what we've automated through our APIs. >> Dave: That's unbelievable. >> Yeah. >> It really is. >> It is unbelievable, the amount of automation and innovation that's gone on in such a short time period. What are some of the things as we kind of wrap up here that we can look forward to from stripe from a roadmap perspective, technology wise, partner wise? >> Yes. I mean, we have a slew of data you can imagine billions of billions of transactional data. And you guys know what we do with data is we're looking at fraud prevention. We're looking at, we have a product called radar that looks at fraud, we're doing acceptance, adaptive acceptance to do more AIML learned data and authorization. We're also looking at how do we feed a lot of this financial data into the right mechanisms to allow you to then create new business models on top of this, whether it's cross sell upsell to new user business capture. As well as you know, one of the things I did not talk about, which coming from a farming background is this notion of Stripe climate. Where we have upwards of 2000 companies across 37 countries that are leveraging our Stripe climate product to give back to tech advanced companies that are helping in carbon offset. And super exciting times there from an ESG environmental social governance point of view. So all of those combined is what excites us about the future at Stripe. >> Wow. The future seems unlimited. Lots going on. >> Super excited. Zaki, thank you so much for joining Dave and me talking about what's going on with Stripe. All the innovation that's going on. The synergies with AWS and what's coming down the pipe. We appreciate your insights and your time. >> Thank you, Lisa, thank you, David. Appreciated All right. For Dave Nicholson, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the Cube. The global leader in live tech coverage. (lighthearted piano music)

>>Welcome to the cubes, continuing coverage of AWS reinvent 2021 find Lisa Martin and we are running one of the industry's most important and largest hybrid tech events with AWS in this ecosystem partners. This year, we have two live sets, two remote sites over 100 guests talking about the next decade in cloud innovation. And we're excited to be joined by Patrick Jeanne, the CTO of OutSystems Patrick. Welcome to the program. >>Thank you. I appreciate being one of those 100 guests, >>One of the 100, one of the elite, 100, we'll say it like that. Right? So, so OutSystems has some revolutionary news. You guys are saying, you know, what developer experience needs to change? Tell us more. >>It does. I mean, it needs to change. And I've been in the industry developing applications for too many years dimensions basically since I was 12 years old writing software and, you know, going over that time and thinking about it, doing the traditional software development route. So many applications that take too long was, you know, costly to build so much risk involved in it. Eventually it didn't meet all the requirements. And if you look at the investment we make in software, which is important, I mean, software is a, is a unique differentiator for, for businesses. That investment has such a high risk and a high cost, and that needs to change and it needs to change just because of the complexity that is in that process inherent in it that's. And that is what we are doing and OutSystems is tackling that problem. And, um, from a business standpoint, it must change. >>It must change that that is strong words there. So talk to me about what you're announcing, what, what were the gaps in the market customer feedback? Was it, or were there any catalysts from the pandemic going we've got to change this developer experience and this is the time >>For sure. I mean, if you think about from the pandemic and I mean, we were on a journey for digital transformation. We've been on this journey for a number of years and it really accelerated that the experiences that we have with each other, with you and me, we're not the same studio today. I mean, there's there reasons that we have used this experience remote, we have a technology that can do it, the pandemic accelerated that. And so, so much of the experiences we have are digital experiences. And if you think about it, there's a device in between us. There's going to be a device in between all the people viewing what we're looking at, that experience that, uh, that they will have with us will be basically surfaced through an application on that device. And the pandemic has really accelerated that. And that's an area that we play in, obviously for what's considered low code application development. >>And if you just think about application development in general, that's what powers all of these experiences. And going back to that, you know, statement about that, it needs to change if we need these experiences to be diverse, if we need these experiences to be meaningful, if we need them to make sure that when people engage, as far as what that device is, something that brings, you know, delight and pleasure to them, we need developers across the board. Investing in that today, there is a very constrained market for professional developers, but because of the inherent complexity in software development. And so if you think about how that's almost almost you're limiting access to the people who can create those experiences, that's not a good situation. There's about 25 million developers in the world that would consider themselves developers today, 7, 8, 9, 10 billion devices out there. Think of that disparity between those two numbers. >>And so we need a larger number of people to actually develop applications. So that experience can be much more diverse. We need to expose development to many more people. That is the problem today with software development is that it is complex. It is too specialized. It's too inherit as far as with failure when you get it together. And so either you shy away from that as an organization or as an individual to do development, or you go on these very long development as far as cycles to actually create these applications. What we do is we take the approach of let's make it very simple to get into, you know, some terms and call it citizen developer, low code, basically all they're saying is let's, let's reduce the risk of development. Let's go into a process where we make it accessible to more and more people. You can go through and develop applications with the lower risk. You can build change into that process and you can get value into end users as rapidly as possible. So that's, that is the value proposition. That is what needs to change >>Strong value proposition well said, Patrick, talking about reducing the complexity, uh, the risk as well. So, so go ahead and crack crack open what you guys are actually announcing today. >>Yeah, for sure. So with, we we've been doing this for many years, we have, um, software development, we have 14 million plus as far as end-users using applications that have been developed with the Al systems platform, what we're announcing is taking some of the great benefits that we have to what you'd consider as the first part of that low code process, where you have a, you have a developer that has an idea, and there's a canvas in front of you. You know, you're, you're an artist, right? But again, this is what you are as a developer. And so you go in and you create that application. We've been doing this for many years and it works really well. But thing that we're improving upon now is the ability to do that and scale that out to millions of end-users 10 millions of end-users. So if you think about that inherent speed of developing an application, using a platform like OutSystems, we're taking that same concept and rolling that into an internet scale application, hosting architecture. >>So any developer that uses our systems, basically like it would be comparable to a traditional development team that has application architects, cloud architects, security, engineers, database engineers, a whole team of very smart individuals that generally the, the biggest technology companies in the world can put together. Most companies can't do that. You don't have access to that type of that type of skillset. And so we're providing that with project Neo, which is what we're announcing today in our, um, at our user conference and customer conference, is this brand new as far as platform that allows you to build these applications at scale. And this is initially built on AWS using all the great AWS technologies. If you look at what AWS has done and provided to developers today, it's amazing. It is absolutely amazing. The amount of technologies that you can leverage. It's also daunting because as a traditional developer, you have to go in and choose, you know, what do you do? It's like, there's just massive cognitive load as far as upfront when you're going to design and application and what type of messaging what's at the data store. Well, how do I host my application? What type of network, you know, as far as security do I use, we're taking all that heavy lifting, all that undifferentiated, heavy lifting off of the developers, putting it into the project, Neo platform, allowing a single developer or a small group of developers to actually leverage that best in class architecture on AWS today. >>So when you're talking to developers, what are some of the things that you described as the unique differentiators of project Neo? It sounds like this was really apt and apt time for change, but when you're talking to those folks, what do you say? You know, 1, 2, 3, these are the things that make project Neo unique. >>Yeah. So you're the first is don't worry about the application architecture. Like I mentioned, don't when you go in that, the idea, the concept of that application and what it means to, to deliver some value, whether it's into a business or a hobby or whatever. I mean, however, you're developing application, you're doing it for a reason. You want that value to come out as quickly as possible. You want that experience. And so that first thing is you don't have to worry about the architecture anymore. So in the past, you know, you'd have to think about if it's a very large application, it's millions and millions of end-users. How do you structure that? How do you put it together? That concern is removed from you in that process? The other thing is we solve the problem of software disintegration. So with traditional development, when you develop an application and you get it into the hands of end, users get immediately starts to disintegrate. >>So there will be bugs that will appear. There will be, as far as, um, security flaws that will come up services that you use will become deprecated. We'll swap out cloud services, you know, AWS or Azure or Google, we'll swap out cloud services with different services behind the scenes version that we new versions of those that is software disintegration. As soon as you develop software today and all of these beautiful cloud services that you use and components, they often something will become outdated almost by the time you release it. A lot of times with software development projects, it literally is you start with some version or some component before you can get that out in a traditional mode. Something becomes outdated. We solve that issue. What I like to call software disintegration, we, as far as our systems, ensure we invest in that platform. And so when we need to change out those components, so services, those versions fix is for a security flaws, fixed bugs. >>We do that and it seamless. And so your application, you do not have to rewrite your application. You do not have to go through that process as a tradition, as a developer on our systems like you would, as your traditional developer, we solve that software disintegration issue. So it is it's, it's very empowering to developers to not have to worry about that. There are many, you look at the numbers today about how much is invested in innovation versus maintenance. You know, a lot of companies start out at 70% innovation, 30% as far as maintenance. And then over time that flips and you'll get to 30% of your time spent on innovations development, 70% maintenance, that burden we removed that burden. >>Those are some really powerful statements protect that you mean, I really liked the way that you described software disintegration. I've actually never heard that term before. And it kind of reminded me of, you know, when you buy a brand new car, you drive it off. The lot the value goes down right away, then before you even get things out. And on the consumer side, we know that as soon as we buy the newest iPhone, the next one's going to be out, or there's some part of it, that's going to be outdated in terms of technical debt. I was reading a stat that technical debt is expected to reach and costs businesses 5 trillion us dollars over the next 10 years. How does OutSystems helps customers address the challenges with technical debt and even reduce it? >>Yeah. If you think about the guy, the truest sense of technical debt, it's a, it's a decision that you make in the development process to basically, you know, load up the future with some work that you don't want to do right now. And so we're solving that issue where number one, we, you don't even have to make that decision. So you can go back to that concept of removing that cognitive load of, do I get the software out right now or do I get it out in the right way? And that's really what technical debt technical debt is saying. I need to get it out now. And there are some things I want to do that it'd be better if I did them now, but I'm going to go ahead and push that out into the future. You don't have to do that today with us. >>And so what happens with our systems? We invest in that platform, and this is hard. I mean, this is not an easy thing to do. This is why we have some of the best and brightest engineers focusing on this process at the heart of this, not to get too technical, but the heart of this is what we call the true change engine. But then, um, within our platform, we go through and we look at all of the changes that you need to make. So if you think of that concept of technical debt of like, oh, I want to get this into the hands of man users, but I don't want to invest in the time to do something right. It's always done right. As far as with the OutSystems platform. So we take that, we look at the intent of your change. So it's like a, it's like a process where you tell us the intent. >>When you, as a application developer, you're designing an application, you tell us the intent of the application is to look and feel. It could be some business processes can be some integrations. We determine what's the best way to do that. And then once again, from a software disintegration standpoint, we continue to invest in all the right ways to do that the best way possible. And so, I mean, we have customers that have written applications. That's 10, 15 years ago, they're still using our platform with those same applications they've added to them, but they actually have not rewritten those applications. And so if you think about the normal traditional development process, the technical debt incurred over that type of lifetime would be enormous with us. There's no technical debt. They're still using the same application. They have simply added capabilities to it. We invest in that platform. So they don't have to >>So big business outcomes there, obviously from a developer productivity perspective, but from the company wide perspective, the ability to eliminate technical debt, some significant opportunities there. Talk to me about the existing OutSystems customers. When are they going to be able to take advantage of this? What is the migration or upgrade path that they can take? >>Yeah. And so it's, it was very important to me and, and, uh, and the team, as far as our systems, to be able to integrate, to innovate as far as for customers, without disrupting customers. And we've probably all been through this path of great new technology is awesome. But then to actually utilize that technology when you're a current customer, it creates pain. And so we've invested heavily in making sure that the process is pain-free so you can use project Niamh. So we are announcing it as it was in public preview, as far as now, and then we will release it from GA as far as in the first quarter of next year. So over this timeframe, you'll be able to get in and try it out and all that continue to use your current version, which is OutSystems 11. So what we, what we affectionately call it 11, as far as Alice systems, Al systems, 11 version, and continued to use, and you can continue to use that today. >>Side-by-side and coexistence with the project, Neo and project Neo is a code name. So we will, we will have an official product name is for as at launch, but it's our it's. Our affectionate is kind of a unofficial mascot as Neo. So we call it project Neo bit of a fun thing, and you can use it side by side. And then in the future, you'll be able to migrate applications over, or you can just continue to coexist. I mean, we see a very long lifetime for OutSystems 11, it's a different platform, different technology behind the scenes project, Neos, Kubernetes base, Lennox containers. Based once again on the bill, we went in with the, just looked at it and said, rearchitect re-imagined, how would you do this? If you had the best and brightest, as far as engineers, architects, um, you know, we have, which we do, you know, very smart in those people. >>And we did that. And so we did that for our customers. And so Neo is that how systems 11 still a great choice. If you have applications on it, you can use it. And we have, we anticipate that customers will actually side by side, develop on both in which we have some customers in preview today. And that's the process that they have. They will develop on 11, they will develop on the Neo and they will continue to do that. And there's no, we, we are dedicated to making sure that there's no disruption and no pain in that process. And then when customers are ready to migrate over, if that's what they choose, we'll help them migrate over. >>You make it sound easy. And I was wondering if project Neo had anything to do with the new matrix movie, I just saw the trailer for it the other day. >>It was a happy coincidence. It is not easy. Let me, let me be clear. It is something we have been working on for three years and really this last year really kicked into high gear. And, um, you know, a lot of behind the scenes work, obviously for us, but once again, that's our value proposition. It's we do the hard work. So developers and customers don't have to do that hard work, uh, but no relations in the L I love, I do love the matrix movies. So it's a, it's a nice coincidence. >>It is a nice coincidence. Last question, Patrick, for you, you know, as we wrap up the calendar year 2021, we head into 20, 22. I think we're all very hopeful that 2022 will be a better year than the last two. What are some of the things that you see as absolutely critical for enterprises? What are they most concerned about right now? >>Yeah, I think it's look, I mean, it's, obviously it has been a crazy couple of years. And, um, and if you think about what enterprises want, I mean, they want to provide, uh, a great experiences for their customers, a great experience for their employees. Once again, digital transformation, we're where you don't even kind of talk about digital transformation more because we're in it. And I think that customers need to make sure that the experiences they provide these digital experiences are the best possible experiences. And these are differentiators. These are differentiators for employees is, are differentiators for customers. I believe that software is one of the big differentiators for businesses today and going forward, and that will continue to be so we're where businesses may be invested in supply chains and invested in certain types of technologies. Business will continue to invest in software because software is that differentiator. >>And if you look at where we fit, you can go, you can go buy, you know, some great satisfied where my software as a service off the shelf in the end, you're just like every other business you bought the same thing that everybody else has bought. You can go the traditional development route, where you invest a bunch of money. It's a high risk, takes a long time. And once again, you may not get what you want. We believe what is most important to businesses. Get that unique software that fits like a glove that is great for employees is great for their customers. And it is a unique differentiator for them. And I really see that in 2022, that's going to be big and, and going forward. They're the legs for that type of investment that companies make and their return on that is huge. >>I agree with you on that in terms of software as a differentiator. No, we're seeing every company become a software company in every industry these days to be first to survive in the last 20 months and now to be competitive, it's really kind of a must have. So Patrick, thank you for joining me on the program, talking about project Neo GA in quarter of calendar year 22 exciting stuff. We appreciate your feedback and your insights and congratulations on project Neil. Thanks, Lisa. Appreciate it for Patrick Jean I'm Lisa Martin, and you're watching the cubes continuous coverage of re-invent 2021.

(Upbeat intro music) >> Welcome to theCUBE's continuing coverage of AWS re:Invent 2021. I'm Lisa Martin and we are running one of the industry's most important and largest hybrid tech events with AWS in this ecosystem partners this year. We have two live sets, two remote sets over 100 guests talking about the next decade in cloud innovation. And we're excited to be joined by Patrick Jean the CTO of OutSystems, Patrick welcome to the program. >> Thank you, I appreciate being one of those 100 guests. >> One of the 100, one of the elite 100, we'll say it like that, right? >> Yes. >> So OutSystems has some revolutionary news. You guys are saying, you know what, developer experience needs to change, tell us more. >> It does I mean, it needs to change. And I've been in the industry developing applications for too many years to mention, basically since I was 12 years old writing software and going over that time and thinking about it, doing the traditional software development route. So many applications that take too long was costly to build, so much risk involved in it. Eventually it didn't meet all the requirements. And if you look at the investment we make in software, which is important, I mean, software is a unique differentiator for businesses. That investment has such a high-risk and a high cost and that needs to change. And it needs to change just because of the complexity that is in that process inherent in it. That's and that is what we are doing in OutSystems is tackling that problem. And from a business standpoint, it must change. >> It must change that is strong words there. So talk to me about what you're announcing what were the gaps in the market, customer feedback, were there any catalysts from the pandemic going we've got to change this developer experience and this is the time. >> For sure. I mean, if you think about from the pandemic and I mean, we were on a journey for digital transformation. We've been on this journey for a number of years the pandemic really accelerated that the experiences that we have with each other, you and me are not in the same studio today. I mean, there reasons that we use this experience remotely. We have a technology that can do it. The pandemic accelerated that. And so, so much of the experiences we have are digital experiences. And if you think about it, there's a device in between us. There's going to be a device in between all the people viewing what we're looking at. That experience that they will have with us will be basically surfaced through an application on that device. And the pandemic has really accelerated that. And that's an area that we play in, obviously for what's considered low-code application development. And if you just think about application development in general, that's what powers all of these experiences. And going back to that statement about that it needs to change. If we need these experiences to be diverse, if we need these experiences to be meaningful, if we need them to make sure that when people engage as far as what that device is something that brings, delight and pleasure to them. We need developers across the board investing in that. Today there is a very constrained market for professional developers because of the inherent complexity in software development. And so if you think about how that's almost, almost here limiting access to the people who can create those experiences, that's not a good situation. There's about 25 million developers in the world that would consider themselves developers today, seven, eight, nine, 10 billion devices out there. Think of that disparity between those two numbers. And so we need a larger number of people to actually develop applications so that experience can be much more diverse. We need to expose development to many more people. That is the problem today with software development is that it is complex, it is too specialized. It's too inherent as far with failure when you get it together. And so either you shy away from that as an organization or as an individual. To do development are you going on these very long development as far as cycles to actually create these applications? What we do is we take the approach of let's make it very simple to get into. Sometimes we call it citizen developer, low-code, basically all they're saying is let's reduce the risk of development. Let's go into a process where we make it accessible to more and more people. You can go through and develop applications with the lower risk. You can build change into that process. You can get value into end users as rapidly as possible. So that is the value proposition, that is what needs to change. >> Strong value proposition well said, Patrick. Talking about reducing the complexity, the risk as well. So go ahead and crack open what you guys are actually announcing today. >> Yeah, for sure. So we've been doing this for many years. We have software development, we have 14 million plus as far as end-users using applications that have been developed with the Allo systems platform. What we're announcing is taking some of the great benefits that we have to what you'd consider as the first part of that low-code process. Where you have a developer that has an idea, and there's a canvas in front of you. You're an artist, right, with a canvas that's what you are as a developer. And so you go in and you create that application. We've been doing this for many years and it worked really well. The thing that we're improving upon now is the ability to do that and scale that out to millions of end-users, 10 millions of end-users. So if you think about that inherent speed of developing an application, using a platform like OutSystems, we're taking that same concept and rolling that into an internet scale application, hosting architecture. So any developer that uses OutSystems, basically like it would be comparable to a traditional development team that has application architects, cloud architects, security engineers, database engineers, a whole team of very smart individuals that generally the biggest technology companies in the world can put together. Most companies can't do that, you don't have access to that type of skillset. And so we're providing that with Project Neo, which is what we're announcing today in our, at our user conference and customer conference. Is this brand new as far as platform that allows you to build these applications at scale. And this is initially built on AWS using all the great AWS technologies. If you look at what AWS has done and provided to developers today, it's amazing. It is absolutely amazing. The amount of technologies that you can leverage. It's also daunting because as a traditional developer, you have to go in and choose what do you do? It's like, there's just massive cognitive load. As far as upfront when you go in to design an application. What's up in messaging, what's up at data store, well, how do I host my application? What type of network as far as security do I use? We're taking all that heavy lifting, all that undifferentiated heavy lifting off of the developers, putting it into the Project Neo platform. Allowing a single developer or a small group of developers to actually leverage that best in class architecture on AWS today. >> So when you're talking to developers, what are some of the things that you describe as the unique differentiators of Project Neo? It sounds like this was really apt and apt time for change. But when you're talking to those folks, what do you say you know, one, two three, these are the things that make Project Neo unique. >> Yeah, so the first is don't worry about the application architecture. Like I mentioned when you go in, the idea, the concept of that application and what it means to deliver some value, whether it's into a business or a hobby or whatever. I mean, however you're developing application, you're doing it for a reason. You want that value to come out as quick as possible. You want that experience. And so that first thing is, you don't have to worry about the architecture anymore. So in the past you'd have to think about if it's a very large application, it's millions and millions of end-users. How do you structure that? How do you put it together? That concern is removed from you in that process. The other thing is we solve the problem of software disintegration. So with traditional development, when you develop an application and you get it into the hands of end users it immediately starts to disintegrate. So there will be bugs that will appear. There will be as far as security flaws that will come up services that you use will become deprecated. We'll swap out cloud services by AWS or Azure or Google. swap out cloud services with different services behind the scenes. Version, there'll be new versions of those that is software disintegration. As soon as you develop software today and all of these beautiful cloud services that you use and components. Something will become outdated almost by the time you release it. A lot of times with software development projects, it literally is you start with some version or some component before you can get that out in a traditional mode, something becomes outdated. We solved that issue. What I like to call software disintegration. We, as far as OutSystems, ensure we invest in that platform. And so when we may need to change out those components, those services, those versions fix is for security flaws, fixed bugs, we do that and it's seamless. And so your application, you do not have to rewrite your application. You do not have to go through that process as a tradition, as a developer on OutSystems like you would, as your traditional developer. We solve that software disintegration issue. So it's very empowering to developers to not have to worry about that. There are many, you look at the numbers today about how much is invested in innovation versus maintenance. A lot of companies start out at 70% innovation, 30% as far as maintenance, and then overtime that flips. And you'll get to 30% of your time spent on innovations development, 70% maintenance, that burden, we remove that burden. >> Those were some really powerful statements Patrick that you made and I really liked the way that you described software disintegration. I've actually never heard that term before. And it kind of reminded me of when you buy a brand new car, you drive it off the lot, the value goes down right away then before you even get things out. And on the consumer side, we know that as soon as we buy the newest iPhone, the next one's going to be out, or there's some part of it, that's going to be outdated. In terms of technical debt, I was reading a stat that technical debt is expected to reach in costs of businesses, 5 trillion, US dollars over the next 10 years. How does OutSystems help customers address the challenges with technical debt and even reduce it? >> Yeah, I mean if you think about in the kind of the truest sense of technical debt, it's a decision that you make in the development process to basically load up the future with some work that you don't want to do right now. And so we're solving that issue where not only, you don't even have to make that decision. So you can go back to that concept of removing that cognitive load of, do I get the software out right now or do I get it out in the right way? And that's really what technical debt, technical debt is saying I need to get it out now. And there are some things I want to do that it'd be better if I did them now, but I'm going to go ahead and push that out into the future. You don't have to do that today with us. And so what happens with OutSystems is we invest in that platform. And this is hard. I mean, this is not an easy thing to do. This is why we have some of the best and brightest engineers focusing on this process at the heart of this, not to get too technical, but the heart of this is what we call the true change engine within our platform. We go through and we look at all of the changes that you need to make. So you think of that concept of technical debt of like, ah, I want to get this in the hands of end users, but I don't want to invest in the time to do something right. It's always done right, as far as with the OutSystems platform. So we take that, we look at the intent of your change. So it's like a process where you tell us the intent. When you as a application developer, you're designing an application, you tell us the intent of the application is to look and feel. It could be some business processes this could be some integrations. We determine what's the best way to do that and then once again, from a software disintegration standpoint, we continue to invest in all the right ways to do that the best way possible. And so, I mean, we have customers that have written applications that's 10, 15 years ago. They're still using our platform with those same applications they've added to them, but they have not rewritten those applications. And so if you think about the normal traditional development process, the technical debt incurred over that type of lifetime would be enormous. With us there's no technical debt. They're still using the same application they've simply added capabilities to it. We invest in that platform so they don't have to. >> So big business outcomes down, obviously from a developer productivity perspective, but from the company wide perspective, the ability to eliminate technical debt, some significant opportunities there. Talk to me about the existing OutSystems customers. When are they going to be able to take advantage of this? What is the migration or upgrade path that they can take and when? >> Yeah and so it is very important to me and the team as far as OutSystems to be able to integrate, to innovate as far as for customers, without disrupting customers. And we've probably all been through this path of great new technology is awesome. But then to actually utilize that technology when you're a current customer, it creates pain. And so we've invested heavily in making sure that the process is pain-free. So you can use Project Neo. So we are announcing it as in, it was in public preview as far as now, and then we will release it from GA as far as in the first quarter of next year. So over this timeframe, you'll be able to get in and try it out and all that. Continue to use your current version, which is OutSystems 11. So what we affectionately call O-11, as far as Allo systems. The Allo systems 11 version continue to use, and you can continue to use that today side-by-side and coexistence with the Project Neo. And Project Neo is a code name. So we will have an official product name as for as at launch but it's our affectionate it's kind of a unofficial mascot as Neo. So we call the Project Neo is a little bit of a fun name and you can use it side by side and then in the future, you'll be able to migrate applications over. Or you can just continue to co-exist. I mean, we see a very long lifetime for OutSystems 11, it's a different platform, different technology behind the scenes. Project Neo's Kubernetes-base Linux containers. Based once again, on the ability, we went in with the gist and looked at it and said, re-architect, re-imagine, how would you do this if you had the best and brightest as far as engineers, architects, we have, which we do. Various market and those people and we did that. And so we did that for our customers. And so Neo is that OutSystems 11 still a great choice. If you have applications on it, you can use it. And we have, we anticipate the customers will actually side by side develop on both in which we have some customers in preview today. And that's the process that they have. They will develop on 11, they will develop on Neo and they will continue to do that. And there's no, we are dedicated to making sure that there's no disruption and no pain in that process. And then when customers are ready to migrate over, if that's what they choose, we'll help them migrate over. >> You make it sound easy. And I was wondering if Project Neo had anything to do with the new matrix movie I just saw the trailer for it the other day, I wonder if this is related. >> It was a happy coincidence. It is not easy let me, let me be clear. It is something we have been working on for three years and really this last year really kicked into high gear. And a lot of behind the scenes work, obviously for us, but once again, that's our value proposition. It's we do the hard work. So developers and the customers don't have to do that hard work. But no relations to Neo, I love, I do love the matrix movies. So it's a nice coincidence. (Lisa laughs) >> It is a nice coincidence. Last question, Patrick, for you, as we wrap up the calendar year 2021, we heading into 2022. I think we're all very hopeful that 2022 will be a better year than the last two. What are some of the things that you see as absolutely critical for enterprises? What are they most concerned about right now? >> Yeah, I think it's, look I mean, it's obviously it has been a crazy a couple of years. And if you think about what enterprises want, I mean, they want to provide a great experiences for their customers, a great experience for their employees. Once again, digital transformation, where you don't even kind of talk about digital transformation more because we're in it. And I think that customers need to make sure that the experiences they provide these digital experiences are the best possible experiences. And these are differentiators. These are differentiators for employees. These are differentiators for customers. I believe that software is one of the big differentiators for businesses today and going forward. And that will continue to be so where businesses may be invested in supply chains, invested in certain types of technologies. Business will continue to invest in software because software is that differentiator. And if you look at where we fit, you can go, you can go buy, some great set of software, my software as a service off the shelf. In the end, you're just like every other business you bought the same thing that everybody else had bought. You can go the traditional development route, where you invest a bunch of money, it's a high risk, takes a long time. And once again, you may not get what you want. We believe what is most important to businesses. Get that unique software that fits like a glove that is great for employees, it's great for their customers. And it is a unique differentiator for them. And I really see that in 2022, that's going to be big and going forward. They're the legs for that type of investment that companies make and they return on that is huge. >> I agree with you on that in terms of software as a differentiator. Now we're seeing every company become a software company in every industry these days to be, first to survive in the last 20 months and now to be competitive, it's really kind of a must have. So, Patrick thank you for joining me on the program, talking about Project Neo, GA in the first quarter of calendar year 22. Exciting stuff we appreciate your feedback and your insights and congratulations on Project Neo. >> Thanks, Lisa, appreciate it. >> For Patrick Jean, I'm Lisa Martin, and you're watching theCUBEs continuous coverage of re:Invent 2021. (Outro music)

(uplifting music) >> Welcome to this CUBE conversation. In this segment, we're going to talk about the future of IoT and the critical role semiconductor technology plays in shaping this exciting space. As we've reported on our Breaking Analysis segments, the fabulous chip company enabled by the ARM ecosystem has permanently changed the semiconductor industry. Intel's fateful decision in the mid-2000s to pass on the chip design for the Apple iPhone was an ironic reminder of IBM's decision to outsource the microprocessor for the original IBM PC to Intel. In both cases, the market leader didn't appreciate the tectonic industry shifts that were possible, and importantly, the impact that volume economics would have on the power structure of the entire industry. Now fast forward today, and we believe ARM wafer volumes are 10X those of the general purpose x86. This means that the ARM ecosystem is on a cost curve that is unmatched in the business. Moreover, as we've reported, the ARM ecosystem is blowing away the historical performance curves that we've seen in the chip industry, AKA Moore's law. Whereas for years, the x86 performance curve grew roughly at 40% per annum has now moderated to the low thirties. Over the past five years, as evidenced by the progression of Apple's A series chip, based on ARM, when you observe the combined performance of the CPU, the GPU, the NPU, the XPU, DSPs, accelerators, et cetera, the alternative processors in combination have driven the average annual performance improvement to over a hundred percent per year. This is an astounding achievement. Why is this so important to IoT? Well, the edge is projected to be the next trillion dollar market. We believe we'll see a world with more than a trillion devices. And as we've reported, IoT use cases are going to require specialized and distributed processing power. And lots of it. AI Inference at the edge will enable real-time action and embedding intelligence in the chips that when the edge will be high performance, low power, inexpensive, and programmable with a much faster time to market profile than historical semiconductor cycles. We're already seeing that with companies like AWS, Apple, Tesla, and peer, and others going from design to tape out and under two years versus the historical norm of let's say four years to be generous. And with me to discuss innovation in IoT and some big news from the 2021 ARM's summit is Mohamed Awad, who is the vice president of IoT and embedded at ARM Mohamed. Good to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. Thanks. I really appreciate the opportunity to have you. >> So, You're welcome. So tell us about your, your role at ARM. I know you were responsible for infrastructure previously and now sort of extended to, to IoT and embedded. Tell us more about. >> Yeah, sure. So I've been with ARM for a little over three years now. I started working with the infrastructure team when I was, we worked on a lot of different initiatives and one of the things that we launched was on Neo verse. And we went on to do some interesting things there, as, as I mentioned, we're making some great traction in the infrastructure space, but a year ago I took on the role to you ought to head up arms IOT and embedded business. And, you know, it's, it's interesting because my, my career really started in IOT and embedded. I was in the Boston area working for companies like Lucent Nortel, and then eventually I remembered very early IOT startup. So that was, that was 25 years ago now. But, but I still got roots in the Boston area. So I like your, like your hat in the back now. >> Yeah. Right. Go, go Sox. >> Go Sox. >> So how did we get here, you mean, you've had a lot of experience in embedded IOT, which is relatively new term to most people. It sort of evolved from a period of, you know, you had instrumentation for at least some components of, of the system. And then we focused on conductivity. But as I was saying in my upfront narrative, we're really now embedding AI and it's it's intelligence, but so there's phases. How do you see the progression in terms of how we got to where ARM is today in IOT? >> Yeah, it's really interesting because if you think about, if you think about ARM, then you really just think about IOT, you know, as you said, IOT started off with, Hey, let's, let's stick a microcontroller in everyday devices, you know, stick a micro controller to something like a vending machine, and then we went on and said, well, hey, what if we could remotely control that device for gathering data from that device, and then we, so we entered this phase of, you know, what we like to call interconnectivity, right, And that was all about, you know, connecting these devices with, with things like, you know, low power Bluetooth, or, you know, even now low latency 5G. And what's interesting is that, you know, together the work of the Arm ecosystem has done over the years has really solved the problems of how to add microcontrollers that connects the devices. I mean, that those problems have largely been solved for a lot of the reasons that you described earlier, which is, you know, we focused on lowering the barrier for folks to come in and innovate around sort of a core technology and, and lots of innovation happened as a result of that. We're entering this new phase now, which is really about, you know, you've got all these devices out there which can easily be connected, they've got microcontrollers or, or, or technology in them, which allows them to, to be intelligent. But how do we really extract the level of kind of AI intelligence out of those devices? Ultimately, what we're trying to do is, is, you know, the industry needs to figure out how to derive intelligence from the smallest sensor, all the way up to the largest cloud data center, you know, and, and, and that means local intelligence. It means regional intelligence, and it means global intelligence, you know, the potential is enormous, but the challenge is pretty enormous as well because of all those diversified use cases, all the diversified devices, all the, all of the sort of scale sort of number of platforms that we're talking about, and that that's really what, we're, what we're excited to kind of go work on, work on that. >> It is exciting. I mean, just the it's mind boggling the, the capabilities, the processing capabilities of this distributed world that we're, we're, we're evolving towards. Let's talk about the hard news of why are you announcing what you're announcing, I mean, what are the trends that are sort of informing that maybe you could hit some of the highlights of the announcement and give us a key details? >> Yeah, sure. So, so when we announced his ARM, total solutions for IOT, and that's really made up of three things, my favorite part is on virtual hardware. Our virtual hardware is all about making available a virtual representation of, of devices in the cloud for lots of developers to use. And I'll, I'll get to that in a minute, but I think, you know, in order to understand that you have to kind of understand the broader context of what ARM total solutions are. It starts with pre-integrated pre verified IP package. You talked earlier about how design cycles we're looking to accelerate people were looking to develop a Silicon much faster. Part of what we were doing at ARM is we're actually taking, you know, pre-integrated pre verified IP packages and call those ARM corstone. We're making those available to the market. So we give those to our Silicon partners, and then they can use that. They might include an neuro processing unit, a CPU. They might include the interconnect, all the, kind of the base IP. And then our Silicon partners can use that as a jumping off point so that they can quickly get Silicon to market. That's the first part of the news, which is, you know, we're doubling down on that too. Now, you know, in the last three years, we've had over 150 different designs, which have used our ARM core stone products. So moving forward, we're going to make that foundational to how we deliver IOT technology to the market. But the second part of it, which is, which is super exciting, is that not only are we going to accelerate the time to market for our Silicon partners, we're also making a virtual representation of that underlying core stone design available in the cloud for software developers all around the world to use at the same time that IP is ready. So at the same time, we hand IP to our Silicon partners. We're making a virtual representation in the cloud. So software developers can start. Now, let me just take a step back here and make sure that, you know, everyone kind of understands how, how big of a deal this is, right before the way this used to work, I would hand the IP to a Silicon partner. It would take them, you know, 18 months, maybe two years to get a piece of Silicon in market. And then a board manufacturer would have to go off. And then only maybe three or four years later, could the software developers start five years to get a product to market what we're doing here with ARM total solutions. We cut that five years down to three years, so we can massively accelerate time to market. And then the third part of what ARM total solution is, is something we call projects Centaury Project Centaury is about putting in place a set of standards to it's an ecosystem initiative, which puts in place a set of standards, reference software and, and specifications around things like security and how devices should communicate with, with, you know, the operating system or cloud service providers that allows that allows software developers to get a level of reuse and leverage. So, you know, today in the IOT, every time you develop a piece of software, you're going to develop it over and over again. But what we're talking about here is they can develop it once and, and be able to apply. And we use a lot of that software over and over again, the same way they do in other markets like infrastructure. >> Love it. So, okay. I want to ask you if that, if there's a blueprint there that we can, we can learn from, but before we do that. So if I, if I go back to the three items that you mentioned, so for example, one of your licensees can say, okay, I want to take just the standard components, the CPU, whatever, but I might want to customize the neural processing unit, as you said, and they have the flexibility to do that at the same time when they, when they bring it to the Foundry, because it's a standard platform that, you know, what's going to work, that's kind of a nuance that maybe people maybe don't fully appreciate, but am I getting that right? That standard platform has dramatically changed the industry. >> Yeah, that's right. I mean, the idea is, is that, you know, we take these, these IPS, we integrate them together. We verify them, we designed it as a subsystem. We target specific use cases, and then we make them available. Our partners are certainly free to go off and make modifications to it. They see fit. But when we hand it to them, it's ready to go. And that's the idea. >> Yeah. And then the point about the being able to, to give developers access in the cloud, and we've often said that, you know, the developers are going to shape IOT. And so I think what you're saying is essentially instead of this linear process, where you can get dependent on the previous one being done, you're actually parallelizing. If you will, the innovation. >> Yeah. That's exactly right. And I, and I'd actually take it one step forward. There's a, there's a subtlety there, which I didn't comment on, which I think it's important to call out, which is not only are we parallelize them, but we're enabling what I'll call modern development methodology. Right. You know, the way that development is done in areas like mobile and the cloud data centers, they use agile workflows, things like continuous integration, you know, broad-based testing as they go along. That's very different than the way that embedded development is done today. Embedded development today is done the same way. It was 25 years ago. You get a board on your desk, you mess around with a bunch of jumpers and cables and wires, hope you did it right. And then you write your software and you hope the hardware guy doesn't want to revise the hardware because then you're going to start all over again. Right. You know, the last thing that you'd want to do is set up a hardware form, right? Lots and lots of different hardware to go off and test over and over again. Now with virtual hardware, you can move all of that to the cloud. All that complexity goes away and you've massively reduced the investment required for software developers to get going and allow them to take on these more modern techniques. >> Well, Mohammed, thank you for clarity clarifying that, that nuance, because we're going to see a Renaissance in the way that that embedded development occurs. And I'm curious as to how you think about that in terms of you, because you're going to have a whole new breed of developers come in with, you know, the cloud developers, if you will. They have, they see IOT as a massive opportunity as well. You're going to see the, I would presume the embedded ecosystem. Up-skill a much in the same way you're seeing, you know, ops dev or dev ops or IT people, you know, learn Python to you know, to up-skill. And so you're going to see like a two vectors of innovation in terms of developers coming together. How do you see that? >> Yeah, that's exactly right. And that's exactly what we're driving to. And when we talk about this, we talk about changing the economics of IOT. That's exactly why, because what we, what we're saying is that, Hey, you can have all this massive innovation that can be unleashed from all these developers that didn't have access to these devices before. And you can also take all these embedded devices, embedded developers and make them so much more efficient with these new modern, modern development methodologies. A combination of those two things is going to, you know, not only is it going to lower the cost of development, but it's going to spur a massive amount of new innovation and all, you know, all new products and services, right. We really think can unleash the potential of IoT. >> So step back a little bit, help us understand kind of how you came to this, your strategy. You mean, what were the friction points or what are the friction points that you see in IOT and embedded in terms of being able to, to, to, to scale this capability? >> Yeah. Yeah. It's a good, it's a great question. And I got to tell you, we, we, when so when we, when I came, when I came into this role, you know, the first thing you do is you go off and talk to customers and partners, and you try to understand how people are using. But most of the time, when people think of ARM, they think of us as, Hey, they're the guys that are off talking to the Silicon partners are talking to the hardware guys. And we absolutely do. We have strong relationships with all of the Silicon partners, but because of our place in the ecosystem, you know, as a, as a company, which, you know, we've got shipped over 70 billion cortex spend devices today, you know, we underpinned, you know, the IOT basically runs on us. And so a lot of what we do too, is we talked to the software ecosystem. We talked to OEMs, and we talked to service providers looking to capitalize on all of that, you know, on the, on the depth and breadth of our ecosystem. And when I talked to OEMs, and when I talked to software service providers, two things became really clear. The OEM is wanting to find a faster path to market. They're like, it just takes too long for us to get our products to market. We need to figure out how to streamline it. So that was one. When I talked to the software service providers, they came to us with a little bit of a different problem. What they said is like, Hey, we really want to deploy software and services across this, this IOT edge space, but it's just so diverse. And so massively complex, you know, everybody's got a different view on thing. Can you help us, like, where's the, your, the common denominator, can you help us figure out how to attack this problem? And that's really what drove, what drove us. Right. >> Awesome. Let's talk a little bit more about some of the announcement, details, project Centaury particular, what are some of the things that you want people to really appreciate, and specifically, what does it mean to the ecosystem? I mean, you touched on it a little bit, but I don't know if you have any examples or customers and, and, and maybe also Mohamed, if you could help us understand how it relates to other arm projects like Cassini. >> Yeah, sure. So project, so, so, so two things. So first of all, let me just talk to what, what, what projects Centaury. So project Centaury is really looking to, you know, help enable a level of, of software leverage across that diverse M class devices that are out there in class with our microcontroller devices that are out there. And so it's really made up of 3, 3, 3 parts. One part is, is all about security. So it uses a PSA and our PSA certified framework, including TFM trusted firmware. So this is our security framework that we've put forward. And then our, the PSA standards initiative that's out there in the marketplace, you know, in all of the efforts that we bring to bear on that, the second part of it is, is around open CMSIS, and, and open CDI CMSIS, which is really, which is really about standardizing aspects about how software is delivered to an IOT device packaged and delivered. It's also about things like how any our thoughts. So any real-time operating system or any cloud service provider, you know, can be accessed from the device. So the idea is, is that a, you know, today, if you think about the way that this works, if you're a Silicon provider, you're a fiber manufacturer, you have to go off and support multiple different clubs, service providers. You may want to support multiple different operating systems, depending on you know, which, which, you know, which particular OS you're interested in. And, and what we're trying to do with, with, with, with projects Centaury is to specify key attributes of the services that exist down on your, on your Silicon, so that you can more easily integrate with, you know, whatever OS you want, whatever service provider you want on whatever hardware you want. It's still allowing plenty of differentiation. So it's not like we're saying, Hey, this is how you actually do over the air updates. For example, rather, what it's saying is that, Hey, this device supports over the updates. If you're going to ask for that service, here's how you present yourself. And that allows a level of software portability that you just didn't have in the IOT space previously. >> Right. And then the licensee can tune that to their specific use case and add their own value. Right. And so, again, go back to the thing we talked about before they, they know what's going to work and they can give it to the, Foundry and say, make this according to the spec and the Foundry's ready for it. That's how we've seen such massive volumes. I want to ask you about security. You, you touched on that. Do you leverage realms in this, or is that not in scope? Is that like. >> No, that's more of a, that right now, that's more focused on our A-class and V9 stuff. And you actually asked about project Cassini a little bit earlier. You know, project Cassini is really our initiative, which is focused on our A-class devices. So our A-class devices typically run a, you know, what I'll call a rich OS like a Linux or whatever. And it's really designed for allowing the level of virtualization and allowing a level of, of, of, of, of shared resources between different containers on, on an A-class type system that you can easily deploy and, and leverage the A-class device resources from, by, by different, by different workloads. >> The reason I asked, I'm trying to Mohamed connect the dots between mobile as kind of a blueprint, which can occur for IOT. I think that's maybe, but even some of the stuff that's going on in the data center, it's particularly as it relates to data intensive workloads, some of the work that we've seen that, you know, AWS do, and, you know, offloads, we're seeing, you know, all the new, like all the modern storage and networking and security offloads in the data center are moving to ARM. And it just seems like the use cases for ARM are exploding. And I'm wonder if he can help us connect the dots into IOT, which could, which could do or follow all of these markets. >> Yeah. I mean, what's interesting what we saw happen in mobile and what we saw happen in the infrastructure, what we see happening in both of those markets is that by creating a level of consistency in how software can be deployed on these devices, whether that's with the, you know, with the mobile phone and the ARM ecosystem and a mobile phone, or all the way through to the data center, what you've done is you unleashed a tremendous amount of innovation, you know, in the mobile space. There's something like 3 million apps out there today, right. And thousands of different smartphone models, you know, could you imagine if every one of those app developers had to test their application on every mobile phone in order to be sure that it worked, you know, you'd have a lot less innovation, a lot less, you know, a lot less, a lot less scale and a lot less, a lot less applications. So what we're talking about here is trying to unleash that same amount of value by creating that consistent. So that's a clear lesson we learned from, from both mobile and from, from infrastructure. The other thing that's clear is that a lot of these markets you've got, back to the idea of, of parallelized development flows and, and subsystems, and that's directly kind of what we're seeing in, in what we're putting forth in, with, ARM total solutions. >> Yeah. You know, it's kind of buzz wordy and people who watch my program know I'm a kind of a fan of the R model, but, but you talk about the new IOT economy. In my view, you're actually an underpinning of that economy. I mean, everybody talks about it, this multi-trillion dollar opportunity, but, but how do you think about this, this new economy? And we've obviously touched on it, but IOT, the edge it's really taking, taking shape now and becoming real. >> Yeah. I, I think that the idea here, when we talk about a new IOT economy, very clearly what I'm referring to is this idea that, you know, you've got today, you've got a lot of potential, which is lost because, you know, your you're limited to just the, a vertically integrated solution. Software is vertically integrated on the, on the specific hardware and the, the barriers and the cost to investing in that hardware from a software perspective is just, it's just too high given, given the sort of scale that you get with that software after the fact. So we're addressing that in two vectors or simplifying it, so that lots of different developers, you know, that developer that's sitting at the coffee shop can spin up an AWS instance with our ARM virtual hardware on it and write an app while they're sitting there. And at the same time, they can access a much broader set of devices than they would've been able to otherwise, if it's not, you know, it's not dissimilar, you know, I hate to keep going back to mobile, but it's not dissimilar from the mobile space where if you think about 15 years ago, when all of the applications that were written on your mobile phone were written by the phone manufacturer, you had a limited number of applications, and sure a phones were a great thing, but it was nothing like it is today. It was a mobile phone economy. Today, when you think about mobile, you know, mobile really underpins the financial economy. It underpins, you know, transport, the transportation economy. It underpins how we communicate with everybody, with social networks and it, and it's really taken a sort of life of its own in lots of different ways. It's not really a mobile economy. It is the economy. And we think IOT can be even larger than that. Right? >> Yeah. You know what I mean? Our industry has a tendency to hype a lot of new waves, but they certainly didn't, over-hype mobile. I mean, everybody, you know, migrated toward mobile. That's why I think it's such a relevant conversation. And so adaptable to IOT at the cloud as well, data as well. You know, they, they were probably under hyped. If anything, social, maybe we can put over here in a bucket, there's a lot, a lot of Friction. But those other three in terms of sort of enterprise and the edge. And I think, you know, from, from what we can see ARM has really in the ecosystem has, has completely and permanently altered the shape of the industry. It's a very exciting time. And I think the best is yet to come Mohamed. I really appreciate you coming to the cube. Thanks so much. >> No, I, I really, I really appreciate, I think thanks for taking the time. All right. >> Thank you for watching this CUBE conversation. This is Dave Vellante. We'll see you next time. (casual uplifting music)

(upbeat music) >> From around the globe, it's the CUBE with digital coverage of Postgres Vision 2021. Brought to you by EDB. >> Hello everyone, this is Dave Vellante for the CUBE. We're covering Postgres Vision 2021, the Virtual CUBE edition. Welcome to our conversation with the CEO, Ed Boyajian, the CEO of Enterprise DB. And we're going to talk about what's happening in open source and database and the future of tech. Ed, Welcome. >> Hi Dave, good to be here. >> Hey, several years ago at Postgres Vision event you put forth the premise that the industry was approaching a threshold moment, and digital transformation was the linchpin of that shift. Now, Ed, while you were correct, and I have no doubt the audience agreed, most people went back to their offices after that event and they returned to their hyper-focus of their day-to-day jobs. Yeah, maybe a few accelerated their digital initiatives but generally, pre COVID, we moved at a pretty incremental pace and then the big bang hit. And if you weren't digital business, you were out of business. So, that single event created the most rapid change that we've ever seen in the tech industry by far, nothing really compares. So, the question is, why is Postgres specifically and EDB generally the right fit for this new world? >> Yeah, I think, look a couple of things are happening Dave. You know, right along the bigger picture of digital transformation, we are seeing the database market in transformation. And, and I think the things that are driving that shift are the things that are resulting the success of Postgres and the success of EDB. I think first and foremost, we're seeing a dramatic re-platforming. And just like we saw in the world of Linux where I was at, Red Hat during that shift where people were moving from Unix-based systems to X86 systems, we're seeing that similar re-platforming happening whether that's from traditional infrastructures to cloud-based infrastructures or container-based infrastructures, it's a great opportunity for databases to be changed out. Postgres wins in that context because it's so easily deployed anywhere. I think the second thing that's changing is we're seeing a broad expansion of developers across the enterprise. They don't just live in IT anymore. And I think as developers take on more power and control, they're just defining the agenda. And it's another place where Postgres shines. It's been a priority of EDB's to make Postgres easier and that's coming to life. And I think the last stack overflow developer survey suggested that, I think they survey 65,000 developers, the second most loved and the second most used database by developers is Postgres. And so I think there again, Postgres shines in a moment of change. And then I think the third is kind of obvious. It's always an elephant in the room, no pun intended, but it's this relentless nagging burden of the expenses of the incumbent proprietary databases and the need. And we especially saw this in COVID. To start to change that, more dramatically change that economic equation, here again, Postgres shines. >> You know, I want to ask you, I'm going to jump ahead to the future for a second, because you're talking about the re-platforming and with your Red Hat shops I kind of want to pick your brain on this because you're right. You saw that with Red Hat and you're kind of seeing it again when you think about open shift and where it's going, my question is related to re-platforming around new types of workloads, new processing models at the edge, I mean, you've seen an explosion of processing power GPU's, NPUs, accelerators, DSPs and it appears that there this is happening at a very low cost. I'm inferring that you're saying Postgres can take advantage of that trend as well, that that broader re-platforming trend to the edge, is that correct? >> It is. And, and I think, you know this is the this has been one of the I think the most interesting things with Postgres. Now I've been here almost 13 years. So if you put that in some perspective, I've watched and participated in leading transformation in the category. You know, we've been squarely focused on Postgres so we've got 300 engineers who worry about making Postgres better. And as you look across that landscape a time, not only as Postgres gotten more performance and more scalable, it's also proven to be the right database choice in the world of not just legacy migrations but new application development. And I think that stack overflow developer survey is a good indicator of how developers feel about Postgres, but, you know over that timeframe, I think if you went back to 2008 when I joined EDB, Postgres was was considered a really good general purpose database. And today I think Postgres is a great general purpose database. General purpose isn't sexy in the market, broadly speaking but Postgres capabilities across workloads in every area is really robust. And let me just spend a second on it. We look at our customer base as deploying and what we think of as systems of record, which are the traditional ERP type apps, you know where there's a single source of truth. You might think of ERP apps there. We look at our customers deploying and systems of engagement, and those are apps that you might think of in the context of social media style apps or websites that are backed by a database. And the third area is systems of analytics where you would typically think of data warehouse style applications, interestingly, Postgres performs well. And our customers report using us across that whole landscape of application areas. And I think that is one of Postgres' hidden superpowers, is that ability to reach into each area of requirement on the workload side. >> Yeah. And as I was alluding to before. That, that itself is evolving as you now inject AI into the equation AI inferencing. And it's just a very exciting times ahead. There's no, there's no database, you know 20 years ago it was kind of boring. Now it's just exploding. I want to come back to that, the notion of of Postgres that maybe talk about other database models. I mean, you've mentioned that you've evolved from this, you know, system of record. You can take a system engagement on structured data, et cetera, Jason it's-. So how should we think about Postgres in relation to other databases and specifically other business models of companies that provide database services? Why is Postgres attractive? Where is it winning? >> Yeah, I think a couple of places. So, I mean, for first and foremost, Postgres, you know at its core, Postgres is a SQL relational database a trend in asset compliance, equal relational database. And that is inherently a strength of Postgres but it's also a multi-model database. Which means we handle a lot of other, you know database requirements, whether that's geospatial or, or JSON for documents or, or time series, things like that. And, so Postgres extensibility is one of its inherent strengths. And that's kind of been built in from the beginning of Postgres. So not surprisingly people use Postgres across a number of workloads because at the end of the day, there's still value in having a database that's able to do more. There are a lot of important specialty databases and I think they will remain important specialty databases, but Postgres thrives in its ability to crossover in that way. And I think that is, you know one of the different key differentiators in in how we've seen the market and the business develop. And, and that's the breadth of of workloads that Postgres succeeds in. But, but our growth if you kind of ventured it across vectors we see growth happening, you know, in a few dimensions. First, we see growth happening in new applications. About half of our customers have come to us today for new, new Postgres users are deploying us on new applications. The others are our second area migrating away from some existing legacy incumbent. Often Oracle, not always. The third area of growth we see is in cloud where we're Postgres is deployed very prolifically both in the traditional cloud platforms like EC2, but then again also in the database as a service environment and then the fourth area growth we're seeing now is around container deployment, Kubernetes deployment. >> Well, you mean Oracle's prominent because it's just, it's, it's, it's a big install base and it's expensive and people, you know they got to look at that. I mean, It's funny. I do a lot of TCO work and mostly, you know usually TCO is about labor costs when it comes to Oracle it's about license costs and maintenance costs. And so to the extent that you can reduce that at least for a portion of your state, you're going to, you're going to drop right to the bottom line. But, but, I want to ask you about the kind of that spectrum that you think about the prevailing models for database you've got on the one hand, you've got the right tool for the right job approach. You know, it might be 10 or 12 data stores in the cloud. On the other hand, you've got kind of a converged approach. You know, Oracle is going that direction, clearly Postgres, with its open source innovation, is going that direction. And it seems to me yet that at scale that's a more, the latter is the more cost-effective model. How do you think about that? >> Well, you know, I think at the end of the day you kind of have to look at it. I mean, the, the business side of my brain looks at that as an addressable market question, right? And you heard me talk about three broad categories of workloads and, you know, people define workloads in different buckets, but that's how we do it. But if you look at just a system of record in the system of engagement market I think that's what would be traditionally viewed as the database market. And there that's, you know, let's just say for the sake of arguments, a 45 to $50 billion market. The third, the systems of analysis that market's an $18 billion market. And, and, you know, as we talk about that so all in it's still between 60 and $70 billion market. And I think what happens, there's so much heat and light poured on the valuation multiples of some of the specialty players that the market gets confused. But the reality is our customers don't get confused. I mean, if you look at those specialty players take that $48 billion market. I mean, add up Mongo, Reds, Cockroach, Neo, all of those. I mean, hugely valued companies all unicorn companies, but combined they add up to a billion bucks. Don't get me wrong, that's important revenue and meaningful in the workloads they support, but it's not, it doesn't define the full transformation of this category. Look at the systems of analysis again, another great, great market example. I mean, if you add up the consolidation of the Hadoop vendors, add in there, snowflake you're still talking to, you know $1.5 billion in revenue in an $18 billion market. So while those are all important technologies the question is in this transformation move did the database market fully transformed yet. And my view is, no, it didn't, we're in the first maybe second inning of a $65 billion transformation. And I think this is where Postgres will ultimately shine. I think this is how Postgres wins, because at the end of the day, the, the nature of the workloads fits with Postgres and the future tech that we're building in Postgres will serve that broader set of needs. I think more effectively. >> Well, and I love these tam expansion discussions because I think you're right on. And I think it comes back to the data and we all we all talk about the data growth, the data exposure and we see the IDC numbers. Well, you ain't seen nothing yet. And so at data by its very nature is distributed. That's why I get so excited about these new platform models. And I want to tie it back to developers and open source because to me, that is the linchpin of innovation in the next decade. It has been, I would even say for the last decade we've seen it, but it's gaining momentum. So, so in thinking about innovation and specifically Postgres in open source, you know, what can you share with us in terms of how we should think about your advantage and again where people are glomming, leaning in to that advantage? >> Yeah. So, I mean, I think, I think you bring up a really important topic for us as a company, Postgres, we think is an incredibly powerful community and, and when you step away from it, again, I, now you remember, I told you, I'd been at, I was at Red Hat before now here at EDB. And there's a common thread that runs through those two experiences. In, in both experiences the companies are attached and prominent alongside a strong, independent open-source community. And I think the notion of an independent community is really important to understand around Postgres. There are hundreds and thousands of people contributing to Postgres. Now EDB plays a big role in that about, you know approaching a third of the contributions in the last release, released 13 of Postgres came from EDB. Now you might look at that and say, gee, that sounds like a lot, but if you step away from it, you know at about 30% of those contributions, most of the contributions come from a universe around EDB and that's inherently healthy for the community's ability to innovate and accelerate. And I think that while we play a strong role there you can imagine that having, and there are other great companies that are contributing to Postgres. I think having those companies participating and contributing gets the best the best ideas to the front in innovation. So I think the inherent nature Postgres community makes it strong and healthy. I mean, and then contrast that to some of the other prominent high value open-source companies. Companies and the communities are intimately intertwined. They're one in the same. They're actually not independent open source communities. And I think that they're therein lies one of, one of the inherent weaknesses in those. But, Postgres thrives because, you know we bring all those ideas from EDB. We bring a commercial contingent with us and all the things we hope, we emphasize and focus on, in growth and Postgres. Whether that's in the areas of scalability, manageability, all hot topics, of course security, all of those areas. And then, you know, performance as always. All of those areas are informed to us by enterprise customers deploying Postgres at scale. And I think that's the heart of what makes a successful independent project. >> Common editorial powers of, of that ecosystem. They, they they're they're multiplicative as opposed to the, the resources of one. I want to talk about Postgres Vision 2021 sort of set up that a little bit. The theme this year is 'The Future is You'. What do you mean by that? >> So, if you think about what we just said, posts, the category is in Tran-, the database categories in transformation. And we know that many of our people are interested in Postgres are early in their journey. They're early in their experience. And so we want to focus this year's Postgres Vision on them. That we understand, as a company who's been committed to Postgres, as long as we have. And with the understanding we have of the technology and best practices, we want to share that view, those insights with, with those who are coming to Postgres. Some for the first time, some who are experienced. >> Postgres Vision 21 is June 22nd and 23rd go to enterprisedb.com and register. The CUBE's going to be there. We hope you will be too. Ed, thanks for coming to the CUBE and previewing the event. >> Thanks, Dave. >> And thank you. We'll see you at Vision 21. (upbeat music)

>>hello. >>Welcome to the special key conversation. I'm John ferry, host of the queue here in Palo Alto, California, featuring star dog is a great hot start-up. We've got a great guest, Rob Harris, vice president of solutions consulting for star dog here talking about some of the cloud growth, um, knowledge graphs, the role of data. Obviously there's a huge sea change. You're seeing real value coming out of this COVID as companies coming out of the pandemic, new opportunities, new use cases, new expectations, highly accelerated shift happening, and we're here to break it down. Rob, thanks for joining us on the cube conversation. Great to be here. So got, I'm excited to talk to you guys about your company and specifically the value proposition I've been talking for almost since 2007 around graph databases with Neo four J came out and looking at how data would be part of a real part of the developer mindset. Um, early on, and this more of the development. Now it's mainstream, you're seeing value being created in graph structures. Okay. Not just relational. This has been, uh, very well verified. You guys are in this business. So this is a really hot area, a lot of value being created. It's cool. And it's relevant. So tell us first, what is star dog doing? What's uh, what is the company about? >>Yeah, so I mean, we are an enterprise knowledge graph platform company. We help people be successful at standing up knowledge graphs of the data that they have both inside their company and using public data and tying that all together in order to be able to leverage that connected data and really turn it into knowledge through context and understand it. >>So how did this all come about this from a tech standpoint? What is the, what is the, uh, what was the motivation around this? Because, um, obviously the unstructured wave hit, you're seeing successes like data bricks, for instance, just absolutely crushing it on, on their valuation and their relevance. You seeing the same kind of wave hit almost kind of born back on the Hadoop days with unstructured data. Is that a big part of it? Is it just evolution? What's the big driver here? >>Yeah, no, I think it's a, it's a great question. The driver early is as these data sets have increased for so many companies trying to really bring some understanding to it as they roll it out in their organizations, you know, we've tried to just try to centralize it and that hasn't been sufficient in order to be able to unlock the value of most organization status. So being able to step beyond just, you know, pulling everything together into one place, but really putting that context and meaning around it that the graph can do. So that's where we've really got started at, uh, back in the day is we really looked at the inference and reasoning part of a knowledge graph. How do we bring more context and understanding that doesn't naturally exist within the data? And that really is how we launched off the product. >>I got to ask you around the use cases because one of the things that's really relevant right now is you're seeing a lot of front end development around agile application. Dev ops is brought infrastructure as code. You're seeing kind of this huge tsunami of new of applications, but one of the things that people are talking about in some of the developer circles and it's kind of hits the enterprise is this notion of state because you can have an application calling data, but if the data is not addressable and then keeping state and in real time and all these kinds of new, new technical problems, how do you guys look at that? When you look at trying to create knowledge graphs, because maintaining that level of connection, you need data, a ton of it it's gotta be exposed and addressable and then deal dealt with in real time. How do you guys look at it? >>Yeah, that's, that's a great question. What we've done to try to kind of move the ball forward on this is move past, trying to centralize that data into a knowledge graph that is separate from the rest of your data assets, but really build a data virtualization layer, which we have integrated into our product to look at the data where it is in the applications and the unstructured documents and the structure repositories, so that we can observe as state changes in that data and answer questions that are relevant at the time. And we don't have to worry about some sort of synchronous process, you know, loading information into the graph. So that ability to add that virtualization layer, uh, to the graph really enables you to get more of a real time, look at your data as it evolves. >>Yeah. I definitely want to double, double click on that and say, but I want to just drop step back and kind of set the table for the folks that aren't, um, getting in the weeds yet on this. There's kind of a specific definition of enterprise knowledge graph. Could you like just quickly define that? What is the enterprise knowledge graph? Sure. >>Yeah, we, we really see an enterprise knowledge graph as a connected set of data with context. So it's not just storing it like a graph, but connect again and putting meaning around that data through structure, through definitions, et cetera, across the entire enterprise. So looking at not just data within a single application or within a single silo, but broadly through your enterprise, what does your data mean? How is it connected and what does it look like within context each other? >>How should companies reuse their data? >>Boy, that's a broad question, right? Uh, you know, I mean, one of the things, uh, that I think is very important as so many companies have just collected data assets over the years, they collect more and more and more. We have customers that have eight petabytes of data within their data Lake. And they're trying to figure out how to leverage it by actually connecting and putting that context around the data. You can get a lot more meaning out of that old data or the stale data or the unknown data that the people are getting right today. So the ability to reuse the data assets with in context of meeting is where we see people really be able to make huge licks for in their organization like drug companies be able to get drugs to market faster. By looking at older studies, they've done where maybe the meeting was hidden because it was an old system. Nobody knew what the particular codes and meaning were in context of today. So being able to reuse and bring that forward brings real life application to people solving business problems today. >>Rob, I got to get your thoughts on something that we always riff on here on the cube, which is, um, you know, do you take down the data silos or do you leverage them? And you know, this came up a lot, many years ago when we first started discussing containers, for instance, and then that we saw that you didn't have to kill the old to bring in the new, um, there's one mindset of, you know, break the silos down, go horizontal scalability on the data, critical data, plane control, plane, other saying, Hey, you know what, just put it, you know, put a wrapper around those, those silos and you know, I'm oversimplifying, but you get the idea. So how should someone who's really struggling with, or, or not struggling, we're putting together an architecture around their future plans around dealing with data and data silos specifically, because certainly as new data comes in there's mechanism for that. But as you have existing data silos, what do companies do? What's the strategy in your opinion? >>Yeah, you know, it is a really interesting question. I was in data warehouse and for a long, long time and a big proponent of moving everything to one place. And, uh, then I really moved into looking into data virtualization and realized that neither of those solutions are complete, that there are some things that have to be centralized and moved the old systems aren't sufficient in order to be able to answer questions or process them. But there are many data silos that we've created within organizations that can be reused. You can leverage the compute, you can leverage the storage that already exist within us. And that's the approach we've taken at start off. We really want to be able to allow you to centralize the data that makes sense, right. To get it out of those old systems, that should be shut down from just a monetary perspective, but the systems that are have actual meeting or that it's too expensive in order to, to remove them, leverage those data silos. And by letting you have both approaches in the same platform, we hope to make this not an either or architectural decision, which is always the difficult question. >>Okay. So you got me on that one. So let me just say that. I want to leverage my data silos. What do I do? Take me through the playbook. What if I got the data silos? What is the star dog recommendation for me? >>Sure. So what, what we generally recommend is you start off with building kind of a model, uh, in the, in the lingo, we sometimes say ontology Euro, some sort of semantic understanding that puts context around what is my data and what does it mean? And then we allow you to map those data silos. We have a series of connectors in our product that whether it's an application and you're connecting through a rest connector, or whether it's a database and you're connecting through ODBC or JDBC map that data into the platform. And then when you issue queries to the startup platform, we federate those queries out to the downstream systems and answer as if that data existed on the graph. So that way we're leveraging the silos where they are without you having to move the data physically into the platform. So you guys are essentially building a >>Data fabric. >>We are, yeah. Data fabric is really the new term. That's been popping up more and more with our customers when they come to us to say, how can we kind of get past the traditional ways of doing data integration and unified data in a single place? Like you said, we don't think the answer is purely all about moving it all to one big Lake. We don't think the answer is all about just creating this virtualization plane, but really being able to leverage the festival. >>All right. So, so if you, if you believe that, then let's just go to the next level then. So if you believe that they can, don't have to move things around and to have one specific thing, how does a customer deal with their challenge of hybrid cloud and soon to be multi-cloud because that's certainly on the horizon. People want choice. There's going to be architectural. I mean, certainly a cloud operations will be in play, but this on-premise and this cloud, and then soon to be multiple cloud. How do you guys deal with that? That question? >>Yeah, that's a great question. And this is really a, an area that we're very excited about and we've been investing very heavily in is how to have multiple instances of StarTalk running in different clouds or on prem on the clown, coordinate to answer questions, to minimize data movement between the platforms. So we have the ability to run either an agent on prem. For example, if you're running the platform in the cloud or vice versa, you can run it in the cloud. You are two full instances that start off where they will actually cope plan queries to understand where does the data live? Where is it resident and how do I minimize moving data around in order to answer the question? So we really are trying to create that unified data fabric across on-prem or multiple cloud providers, so that any of the nodes in the platform can answer question from any of the datas >>S you know, complexity is always the issue. People cost go up. When you have complexity, you guys are trying to tame it. This is a huge conversation. You bring up multi-cloud and hybrid cloud. And multi-cloud when you think about the IOT edge, and you don't want to move data around, this is what everyone's saying, why move it? Why move data? It's expensive to move data processes where it is, and you kind of have this kind of flexibility. So this idea of unification is a huge concept. Is that enough? And how should customers think about the unification? Because if you can get there, it almost, it is the kind of the Holy grail you're talking about here. So, so this is kind of the prospect of, of having kind of an ideal architecture of unification. So take us, take me through that one step deeper. >>Well, it is, it is kind of interesting because as you really think about unifying your data and really bringing it together, of course it is the Holy grail. And that's what people have been talking about. Um, gosh, since I started in the industry over 20 years ago, how do I get this single plain view of my data, regardless of whether it's physically located or, uh, somehow stitched together, but what are the things that, you know, our founders really strongly believed on when they started the company? Was it isn't enough. It isn't sufficient. There is more value in your data that you don't even know. And unlocking that through either machine learning, which is, of course, we all know it's very hot right now to look at how do I derive new insights out of the data that I already have, or even through logical reasoning, right? And inference looking at, what do I understand about how that data is put together and how it's created in order to create more connections within the data and answer more questions. All those are ways to grow beyond just unifying your data, but actually getting more insights out of it. And I think that is the real Holy grail that people are looking for, not just bringing all the data together, but actually being able to get business value and insights out of that data. Yeah. >>Looking for it. You guys have obviously a pretty strong roster of clients that represent that. Um, but I got to ask you, since you brought up the founders, uh, the company, obviously having a founders' DNA, uh, mindset, um, tends to change the culture or drive the culture of the covenant change with age drives the culture of the company. What is the founder's culture inside star, dog? What is the vibe there, if you could, um, what do they talk about the most when you, when they get in that mode of being founders like, Hey, you know, this is the North star, what is, what's the rap like? What's the vibe share? It takes that, take us through some star star, dog culture. >>Sure. So our three founders came out of the rusty of Maryland, all in a PhD program around semantic reasoning and logical understanding and being able to understand data and be able to communicate that as easily as possible is really the core and the fiber of their being. And that's what we see continually under discussion every single day. How can we push the limits to take this technology and your gift easier to use more available, bring more insights to the customers beyond what we've seen in the past. And I find that really exciting to be able to constantly have conversations about how do we push the envelope? How do we look beyond even what Gartner says is five or eight years in the future, but looking even further ahead. So there >>They're into they're into this whole data scene. Then big time they are >>That they are very active in the conferences and posts and you know, all that great. >>They love this agility. They got to love dev ops. I mean, if you're into this knowledge graph scene, so I gotta, I gotta ask you, what's the machine learning angle here, obviously, AI, we know what AI is. AI is essentially combination of many things, machine learning and other computer science and data access. Um, what is the secret sauce behind the machine learning and, and the vibe and the product of, of, uh, >>Yeah, a lot of times w we, the way that we leverage machine learning or the way that we look at it is how do we create those connections between data? So you have multiple different systems and you're trying to bring all that data together. Yeah. It's not always easy to tell, is this rod Harris the same as that rod Harris is this product the same as that product. So when possible we will leverage keys or we'll leverage very, uh, you know, systematic type of understanding of these things are the same, but sometimes you need to reach beyond that. And that's where we leverage a lot of machine learning within the platform, looking at things like linear regression or other approaches around the graph, you know, connectivity, analysis, page rank, things like that to say, where are things the same so that we can build that connections in that connectivity as automatically as possible. >>You don't get a lot of talks on the cube. Also. Now that's new news, new clubhouse app, where people are talking about misinformation, obviously we're in the media business. We love the digital network effect. Everything's networks, the network economy. You starting to see this power of information and value. You guys carved the knowledge graph. So I gotta, I gotta ask you, when you look at this kind of future where you have this, um, complexity and the network effect, um, how are you guys looking at that data access? Because if you don't have the data, you're not going to have that insight, right? So you need to have that, that network connection. Is that a limitation or for companies? Is that an, um, cause usually people aren't necessarily their blind spot is their data or their lack of their data. So having things network together is going to be more of the norm in the future. How do you guys see that playing out? Yeah, >>I think you're exactly right. And I think that as you look beyond where we are today, and a lot of times we focus today on the data that a company already has, what do I know? Right. What do I know about you? What, how do I interact with you? How have I interacted with you? I think that as we look at the future, we're going to talk more about data sharing, but leveraging publicly available information about being able to take these insights and leverage them, not just within the walls of my own organization, but being able to share them and, uh, work together with other organizations to bring up a better understanding of you as a person or as a consumer that we could all interact with. Yeah, you're absolutely right. You know, Metcons law still holds true that, you know, more network connections bring more value. I certainly see that growing in the future, probably more around, you know, more data sharing and more openness about leveraging publicly available. >>You know, it's interesting. You mentioned you came from a data warehouse background. I remember when I broken the businessmen 30 years ago, when I started getting computer science, you know, it was, it was, there was, there was pain having a product and an enabling platform. You guys seem to have this enabling platform where there's no one use case. I mean, you, you have an unlimited use case landscape. Um, you could do anything with what you guys have. It's not so much, I mean, there's, low-hanging fruit. So I got to ask you, if you have that, uh, enabling platform, you're creating value for customers. What are some of the areas you see developing, like now in terms of low-hanging fruit and where's the possibilities? How do you guys see that? I'm sure you've probably got a tsunami of activity around corner cases from media to every vertical we do. And that's, you know, >>The exciting part of this job. Uh, part of the exciting part of knowledge press in general is to see all the different ways that they are allowed to use. But we do see some use cases repeated over and over again. Uh, risk management is a very common one. How do I look at all the people and the assets with an organization, the interactions they have to look at hotspots for risk, uh, that I need to correct within my organization for the pre-commercial pharma, that has been a very, very hot area for us recently. How do we look at all the that's available with an organization that's publicly available in order to accelerate drug development in this post COVID world, that's become more and more relevant, uh, for organizations to be able to move forward faster and the kind of bio industry and my sciences. Um, that's a use case that we've seen repeated over and over again. And then this growing idea of the data fabric, the data fabric, looking at metadata within the organization to improve data integration processes, to really reduce the need for moving data without or around the organization as much. Those are the use cases we've seen repeated over and over again over the last >>Awesome Rob. My last question before we wrap up is for the solution architect that's out there that has, you know, got a real tall order. They have to put together a scalable organization, people process and technology around a data architecture. That's going to be part of, um, the next gen, the next gen next level activity. And they need headroom for IOT edge and industrial edge, uh, and all use cases. Um, what's your advice to them as they have to look out at and start thinking about architecture? >>Yeah, that's, it's a great question. Uh, I really think that it's important to keep your options open as the technology in the space continues to evolve, right? It's easy to get locked into a single vendor or a single mindset. Um, I've been an architect most of my career, and that's usually a lot of the pitfalls. Things like a knowledge graph are open and flexible. They adhere to standards, which then means you're not locked into a single vendor and you're allowed to leverage this type of technology to grow beyond originally envisioned. So thinking about how you can take advantage of these modern techniques to look at things and not just keep repeating what you've done in the past, the sins of the past have, uh, you know, a lot of times do reappear. So fighting against that as much as possible as gritty is my encouragement. >>Awesome, great insight. And I love this. I love this area. I know you guys got a great trend. You're riding on a very cool, very relevant final minute. Just take a quick minute to give a plug for the company. What's the business model. How do I deploy this? How do I get the software? How do you charge for it? If I'm going to buy this solution or engage with star DOE what do I do? Take me through that. Sure. >>Yeah. We, uh, we are like, uh, you've sat through this whole thing. We are enterprise knowledge graph platform company. So we really help you get started with your business, uh, uh, leveraging and using a knowledge graph fricking organization. We have the ability to deploy on prem. We have on the cloud, we're in the AWS marketplace today. So you can take a look at our software today, who generally are subscription-based based on the size of the install. And we are happy to talk to you any time, just drop by our website, reach out we'll we'll get doctors. >>Rob. Great. Thanks for coming. I really appreciate it. That gradients said, looking forward to seeing you in person, when we get back to real life, hopefully the vaccines are coming on. Thanks to, uh, companies like you guys providing awesome analytics and intelligence for these drug companies and pharma companies. Now you have a few of them in your, on your client roster. So congratulations, looking forward to following up great, great area. Cool and relevant data architecture is changing. Some of it's broken. Some it's being fixed started off as one of the hot startups scaling up beautifully in this new era of cloud computing meets applications and data. So I'm John. Forget the cube. This is a cube conversation from Palo Alto, California. Thanks for watching.

>>From Miami beach, Florida. It's the queue covering a chronics global cyber summit 2019 brought to you by Acronis. >>Okay, welcome back. Everyone's the cubes covers two days here in Miami beach. The Fontainebleau hotel for the Kronos has global cyber summit 2019. It's inaugural event around a new category emerging called cyber protection. Um, this isn't a wave that's going to be part of the modernization a week we've been calling cloud 2.0 or whatever you want to call it. A complete modernization of the it technology stack and development environment includes core data center to the edge and beyond. Our next guest is Dan havens, chief growth officer per Chronis. Dan, thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. And thank you for having me, Dan. So, uh, what does chief growth officer mean? You guys obviously are growing, so obviously we see some growth there. Yeah, numbers are there. What she, what she, we have a couple of divisions in the company where we see we can really accelerate the business. >>So we came in and we wanted to make some large investments here. One of those areas was sports. You're seeing race cars out here on the floor, you're seeing all kinds of baseball teams, soccer teams, and we're talking to everybody. We have 40 teams now that are using our technology for competitive advantage on the field. Uh, the other areas, OEM, so, uh, original equipment manufacturers, everybody from making a camera to a server somewhere, having a Cronus be embedded, that's a big angle for us and we just didn't have a lot of focus. So I came into to build those divisions. I've actually joined the CEO before in a prior life in his last company and did something similar for him on a similar, uh, back there and we had violent success. So yeah, it's been a lot of fun. I've been here a year and a half and we're killing it. >>We got triple digit growth in the sporting category and similar in the OEM. It's interesting, you know, I look at a lot of these growth companies and the kind of a formula. You see, you guys have a very efficient and strong product platform engineering group. A lot of developers, a lot of smart people in the company, and a strong customer facing for the lack of a better word, field. The group you're in, you're involved, this is not, and you got marketing supporting it in the middle. Yep. So nice, efficient organizational structure on a massive way. But cyber, because this isn't your grandfather's data projection, this is a platform. What's the pitch? So the key here for us is we have to always say, and, and it, it's, it's hard to simplify and we're easy. In fact, we're cost-effective. Sometimes I'll even say I'm cheap and I'm easy. >>And that does not go out of style for an enterprise, right? So our ability to take good old fashioned backup and these things that other people need and basically extend that across. Now I can have one window where I can control, keep 'em out. If somebody gets in or from the inside or a disaster happens. I from this one place can recover my data. I'm secure with my data. I have the ability to notarize my data. So this one, and by the way, key simple interface. Customers love simple. This one simple interface to be able to do that. Now it takes a lot of engineering that goes behind that. I have plenty of, I have fancy engineering degrees and all that, but I try forget that when I'm talking to a customer because at the end of the day it's gotta make sense. A mind that doesn't know, says no. >>And I think we do a pretty good job of simplifying the message, but as they get under the covers and they roll it out, they recognize that there's, you know, we, we, we have more engineers per employee capita than any company that would have 1600 employees. Simple, easy to use. It reduces the steps it takes to do something as a winning business model. You kind of come from that school you mentioned, you know, cheap and easy. That's what is key. Yeah. But we're in a world where complexity is increasing and costs are increasing. Yep. These are two dynamics that are facing every enterprise, cyber it everywhere. What's your story when you want to educate that person so they can get to that? Yes. I want to work with you guys. What's that? What's that getting to? Yes. Processed motion look like. So the beautiful part is is we sell software right now. >>Software can be purchased complex. You install it, you can figure, you do everything yourself. We also can sell that from a cloud standpoint. So now you consume it like a service. Just like you consume Netflix at home, right? I can now consume this protection as a service. You have bolts spectrums covered. Most enterprises are somewhere in the middle. We call that hybrid. So the idea here is that there's going to be components where this data's not leaving these four walls. It might be government agency, it might be some compliance factor, but the ability to be able to say yes anywhere on that spectrum, it makes it very easy for an executive to say, okay, but we have a very, as you leverage the cloud, the OnRamp for this can be as simple as turning on the surface and pointing it at a data source. I mean, you're a student of history, obviously even in this business for awhile, you've done been there longer than you'd think. >>Data protection was kind of like that. Afterthought, backup data recovery all based upon, yeah, we might have an outage or a flood or hurricane Sandy who knows what's going to happen. You know, some force majority out there might happen, but security is a constant disrupter of business continuity. The data's being hijacked and ransomware to malware attacks. This is a major disruption point of a world that was supposed to be a non disruptive operational value proposition. Yeah, so the world has changed. They went from a niche, well, we've got their architecture of throwing back up. You've got to think about it from day one at the beginning. This seems to be your, your story for the company. You think about security from the beginning with data protection. There's only one club in the bag, so to speak. Talk about that dynamic and how's that translating into your customer's storytelling customer engagements to show you, you used an interesting word at the beginning, disaster recovery years ago, I started my tech industry in 1992 right? >>Disaster recovery is when we're going to have a flood or a hurricane and the building's going to burn down. What we find is most of our customers, that's certainly happens, but that's not the driver. The driver now is somebody after my data because the world has changed. Not only has the amount of data we're collecting change, but the ability to illegally monetize somebody else's data has become reality and you have social media that is socializes if you get breached and so forth. So there's a number of drivers. Number one, I don't want to be turned out of business. Number two, I don't want to be ransom. Then number three, I certainly don't want to do the cover of the wall street journal tomorrow morning as a top executive who looked past data. We literally watch brands, I won't mention the brand now, but a very large fortune 1000 what's called out yesterday. >>We see it every few days and we watched the carnage of their brand get deluded because they weren't protected. So I think it's the perfect storm up. I've got a ton of data, so it's coming in from all directions. Secondly, I I'm concerned about, you know, my brand and been able to protect that data and then you know, what do I do? And the disaster in this case is not necessarily flood or fire. It's that somebody from the inside or outside got in the gym. Pretend that I'm a decision maker. I'm like, my head's exploding. I'm got all this carnage going on. I don't want to get fired yet. I know I'm exposed. Nothing's yet happened yet. Maybe I settled the ransomware thing, but I know I'm not in a good place. What's your story to any, what's your pitch to me? What's in it for me? Tell me. >>Tell me the posture and the, well, we're halfway home. If you say, I know I'm not in a good place, right? Cause oftentimes somebody has to get bit first or they have to see their neighbor get bit first and then they say, Hey come in. One of my first plays would be let's find out what place you really are. I can do that very quickly and an assessment, we can gather your systems, we can get a sense for our, where's your data? Where it's flowing from. What are you doing? What are you doing to protect it? We typically will come back and there's going to be spots where there's blind spots. Sometimes they're fully naked, right? But the good news is is now we know the problem, so let's not waste any time, but you can get onboard and baby steps or you know, we can bandaid it or we can really go into full surgery however you want to move forward. >>But the idea is recognizing this has to be addressed because it's a beast. Every single device that's out there on the floor, in any enterprise, any company is a way in and a POC are critical for your business model. You want to get them certainly candy taste, show the value quickly has a POC, gets structured unit assessment. You come in on a narrow entry nail something quick, get a win. What's the, what's the playbook? Love PLCs because we're so fast and easy meaning oftentimes you do PLCs cause you're complex software and you're trying to prove your point and so forth. I love to push a POC cause I can do it inside of days, but I get the customer to take the drive. It's just on the car lot. If I get you to drive it down the block, you're not bringing it back. You're bringing it home to the neighbors. >>Right. That is the case with our software and our hit rate is key. But again it's because it's straightforward and it's easy. So though most sales cycles don't push for pilot. I can't wait to get a pilot but we don't need 30 days to do it in a couple of days. They're going to recognize I can do this too. You have a good track record of POC. If I get, this is going to be the most conceding. You might have to edit this out. If I get an audience, I will win. That is the most conceited statement on the planet. And if I get the audience and they will look, and this is why we use the sports teams. Sports teams are the cool kids using this. And if I get an executive to say, what are you guys doing with the red Sox? If I could get him or her to look, it's game over. >>Hey being bad ass and having some swagger. It's actually a good thing if you got the goods to back it up. That's not fun. Piece here is that the product works well and it's not this massive mountain to hurdle. It is. We can get started today and take bites as we go, but you mentioned sports. Let's get into that talk track. As we have been covering sports data for now six years on the cube in San Francisco. We were briefly talking about it last night at the reception, but I think sports teams encapsulates probably the most acute use case of digital transformation because they have multiple theaters that are exploding. They got to run their business, they got a team to manage and they got fan experience and their consumers, so you've got consumerization of it. You got security of your customers either in a physical venue from a potential terrorist disaster could happen to just using analytics to competitive venture from the Moneyball model to whatever sports really encapsulates what I call the poster child of using digital into a business model that works. >>You've been successful with sports. We interviewed Brian shield yesterday. Yup. Red Sox, vice-president technology. He was very candid. He's like, look it, we use analytics. It helps us get a competitive, not going to tell you the secrets, but we have other issues that people not thinking about drone strikes while the games going on, potential terrorist attacks, gathering the people, you know, adding on East sports stadium to Fenway park. They have a digital business model integrating in real time with a very successful consumer product and business in sports. This has been a good market for you guys. What's been the secret to success? >> Explosive market? Couple things. First off, you summarized well, sports teams are looking for competitive advantage, so anything that can come in under that guys is gonna get some attention plus data, fan data, system data, ticket data. Um, in baseball, they're studying every single pitch of pictures ever thrown. >>They have video on everything. This is heavy lift data, right? So a place to put it saved money, a place to protect it, a pace to access it so that all of my Scouts that are out in the field with a mobile device have the ability to upload or evaluate a player while they're out still on them and on the field somewhere maybe in another country. And then add the added caveat in our sexiest piece. And that's artificial intelligence. You mentioned Moneyball, right? Uh, the, the entire concept of, of stat of statistics came out in the Moneyball concept and you know, we all saw the movie and we all read the book, but at the end of the day, this is the next step to that, which is not just written down statistics. Now we can analyze data with machine learning and we have very, we have unique baseball examples where there's absolutely no doubt they have the data. >>It's the ability to, how do I turn that to where I can be more competitive on our racing team. So we're actually working with teams improving, changing the car on the track during the race, using our software fact. We always look forward to opportunities where somebody says, Hey, come in and talk about that because it's incredibly sexy to see. Um, but sports are fun because first off they're the cool kids. Secondly, they're early adopters. If it's gonna give competitive advantage, uh, and third, they hit all the vectors. Tons of data have to protect it. >> It's our life in the business models digital too. So the digital transformation is in prime time. We cannot ignore the fact that people want wifi. They got Instagram, Facebook, all of these, they're all conscious of social media. There are all kinds of listening sports club, they have to be, they have to be hip, right? >>And being out front like that, think about the data they have come in at. And so not just to be smart on the field, they have to be smart with our customer. They're competing with that customer for four of their major sports or whatever. Major sports in the, in the, in the, in our case in this fashionable to be hip is cool for the product, but now you think about how they run their business. They've got suppliers, um, that have data and trusting suppliers with data's. There's a difficult protection formula. They've got national secure security issues. They have to protect, well they have to protect as a big part, but they have to protect, well first off these, these archives of data that are of 20 races ago or of this pitcher pitched three years ago and I have a thousand of his pitches and I'm looking for towels. >>That is, that's mission critical. But also, uh, to boot you have just business functions where I'm a, I'm a team and I have a huge telco sponsor and we are shifting back and forth and designing what their actual collateral is going to be in the stadium. They're actually using a Chronis to be able to do that up in the cloud where they can both collaborate on that. Not only doing it, but being able to protect it that way. It's, it's more efficient for them. It's interesting. I asked Brian shield this question, I asked her how does baseball flex and digital with the business model of digital with the success of the physical product or their actual product baseball. And he said an interesting thing. He's like the ROI models just get whacked out because what's the ROI of an investment in technology? It used to be total cost of ownership. >>The class that's right under the under the iceberg to sharpen whatever you use, you use that. We don't use that. We think about other consequences like a terrorist attack. That's right. So so the business model, ROI calculation shifting, do you have those kinds of conversations with some of these big teams and these sports teams? Because you know they win the world series, their brand franchise goes up if they win the national championship, but whatever their goal is has real franchise value. There's numbers on that. There's also the risk of say an attack or some sort of breach. >> Well, I won't mention the names, I won't mention the teams by name, but I have a half a dozen teams right now and two that are actually rolling out that are doing facial recognition just for security, a fan's entering their stadium. So they are taking the ownership of the safety of their fan to the level of doing visual or facial recognition coming into their stadium. >>Obviously the archive to measure against is important and we can archive that, but they're also using artificial intelligence for that. So you're absolutely right. They owe their fan a safe experience, not only a safe experience with good experience and so forth. And we love to be associated whenever we can with wins and losses. But to your point, how do you get, or how do you show a TCO on a disaster and nobody wants to, and by the way, we've seen enough of that to know it's looming. And there's also the supply chain too. I can buy a hotdog and a beer from Aramark, which is the red socks. They say supplier that's not owned by the red Sox. They have a relationship. But my data's in, I'm a consumer of the red Sox. I'm procuring a, you know, some food or service from a vendor. Yeah, yeah. My data's out there. >>So who protects that? Well, these are unique questions that come up all the time. Again, that's a business decision for the customer. The idea is with cloud collaboration, it's technically quite easy, but again, they have to decide where they're gonna commingle their data, how they're going to share. But the idea here is, again, back to the spectrum, fully cloud and accessible and locked down airtight government's scenario where we have a, you know, a lock bottom line is you get to pick where you want to be on there and there's going to be times where my example of talking to the, uh, the telco vendor, we're, we're actually going to share our data together and we're going to make us faster, make a quicker return and design this collateral for our stadium faster. Those are business decisions, but they're allowed because it, Coronas can be as hybrid as you need to be along the site. >>And again, that resonates with an executive. They never want to be wearing handcuffs and they don't want to pay overpay for stuff to not use our stuff. And if you decide to consume cloud, you, you just pay as you go. It's like your electricity bill. All right. So the red Sox are a customer of you guys. You have or they use your service. What other sports teams have you guys engaged with who you're talking to? Give a taste of some of the samples. So European, we have a couple of formula one teams. We have a racing point. We have the Williams team and formula E we have to cheetah the dragon team. We have a adventury, we also have Neo. So we have a good presence in the racing clubs. We have a ton of a world rally cars and, and, and motorcycle motorcross and so forth. >>Then you step over into European football. So we, we, we started in cars and recognize this is hot. So then we got our first, uh, European team, uh, and we had arsenal. As a matter of fact, we have one of the legends here signing with us today. And you know, I mean, they're rock stars, right? People follow them. Anyway, so we have arsenal and we did man city. Um, and we just landed, uh, Liverpool just did that this quarter, two weeks ago. I literally just, the ink is still drying. Um, and then you move into the United States, which I brought the, you know, I brought the circus to town on January one, 2019. First when was the Boston red Sox. We quickly followed that up. You'll see us on the home run fence at San Diego Padres. Volts bought for different reasons, but both very sexy reasons. So it's the reason. >>What were the main drivers? So in the case of the Boston red Sox, it was, it was a heavy lift on video. A lot of on the protection side. Um, the, uh, San Diego was file sync and share. So the example I was giving of, um, being able to share with your largest telco vendor or with your largest investors slash sponsor for your stadium, um, that was the driver. Now what's funny about both is as they get started, he's always expanding, right? So we have the baseball teams, we did land this quarter, the Dallas stars. So that's our first hockey club. I really want. And my goal is to try to get a couple in each of the main four categories and then some of the subs, um, just cause you get the cool kids, you get a tipping point. Everybody then wants to know what's going on. I have a hundred and play. >>And so we, we typically try to qualify regional where it makes sense. Um, uh, we're, you know, we're very close with a team here in the region. So, you know, they, in the feedback from, from the, from the successes you had implementations, why, what's uh, what's been the feedback from the customers. So here's the file in this. Sounds like I'm just tripping with sales guy and I apologize. Warning signs. Okay. If they use it, we're home free. So when you get Brian or any one of these guys that are using it, all I have to do is make sure that a new customer hears this person who has no reason to say anything else and just expose them to it. Because it's this unknown, scary thing that we're trying to protect against and being able to do that and have the freedom of how aggressive or you know, what metaphor am I going to cover that? >>And then also, uh, you know, the, obviously the economics work is you pay as you go. Um, it's, you know, it's a good story. Well, Dan, congratulations on the success. Um, great to see you guys really digging in and getting those PLCs and being successful. We watching your growth. Final question for you yes. Is all the data and the patterns that you see and all of customers. What's the number one reason why a Cronus is selected and why you women? I think that's an interesting question and I think that it's a couple of reasons. Number one, we work, we're easy. We have an enormous footprint. So there's a lot to reference from. Many people have already used us on the consumer side, so we're safe. So that's one reason I would also tell you however, that we have a great ecosystem because a Kronos is different than most software companies. >>Most software companies have a huge outside sales force that sells direct to customer a Chronis. Everybody here is a partner. We sell through a service provider to a channel member through a, through a, a, a, an ISV. Um, and then we have some direct enterprise. But the idea is there's a variety of solutions that can be baked on this foundation. And I think people like that variety. I, they, they like the, like the freedom of I'm not just trapped with this one thing. I can buy it and all options are available and I will tell you an it, nobody wants to be locked down. Everybody wants options, safety in numbers. They want their data protected with the whole cyber land lens. And they know everything's changing every six months. Something's different. And I don't want to be handcuffed in my desk. I want all options available. I think that's our best value from all right, Dan, thanks for coming on. Dan havens, chief growth officer, but Krohn is weird. The Chronis global cyber summit. I'm John Ford. Stay tuned for more cube coverage after this short break.

>> Narrator: Live from New York, it's theCube! Covering AWS Global Summit 2019, brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Welcome back, we're here at the Javits Center in New York City for AWS Summit, I'm Stu Miniman, my cohost is Corey Quinn and happy to welcome to the program Scott Mullins, who's the head of Worldwide Financial Services Business Development with Amazon Web Services based here in The Big Apple, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks for having me, Stu, thanks for having me, Corey. >> All right so we had obviously financial services big location here in New York City. We just had FINRA on our program, had a great conversation about how they're using AWS for their environments, but give us a thumbnail if you will about your business, your customers and what you're seeing there. >> Sure, we're working with financial institutions all the way from the newest FinTech startups, all the way to organizations like FINRA, the largest exchanges and brokers dealers like Nasdaq, as well as insurers and the largest banks. And I've been here for five years and in that time period I actually went from being a customer speaking at the AWS Summit here in the Javits Center on stage like Steve Randich was today to watching more and more financial institutions coming forward, talking about their use in the cloud. >> Yeah before we get into technology, one of the biggest trends of moving to cloud is I'm moving from CapEx more to OpEx and oh my gosh there's uncertainty because I'm not locking in some massive contract that I'm paying up front or depreciating over five years but I've got flexibility and things are going to change. I'm curious what you're seeing as the financial pieces of how people both acquire and keep on the books what they're doing. >> Yeah it can be a little bit different, right, then what most people are used to. They're used to kind of that muscle memory and that rhythm of how you procured technology in the past and there can be a stage of adjustment, but cost isn't really the thing that people I think look to the most when it comes to cloud today, it's all about agility and FINRA is a great example. Steve has talked about over and over again over the last several years how they were able to gain such business agility and actually to do more, the fact that they're now processing 155 billion market events every night and able to run all their surveillance routines. That's really indicative of the value that people are looking for. Being able to actually get products to market faster and reducing development cycles from 18 months to three months, like Allianz, one of our customers over in Europe has been able to do. Being able to go faster I think actually trumps cost from the standpoint of what that biggest value driver that we're seeing our customers going after in financial services. >> We're starting to see such a tremendous difference as far as the people speaking at these keynotes. Once upon a time you had Netflix and folks like that on stage telling a story about how they're using cloud to achieve all these amazing things, but when you take a step back and start blinking a little bit, they fundamentally stream movies and yes, produce some awesome original content. With banks and other financial institutions if the ATM starts spitting out the wrong number, that's a different point on the spectrum of are people going to riot in the street. I'm not saying it's further along, people really like their content but it's still a different use case with a different risk profile. Getting serious companies that have world shaking impact to trust public cloud took time and we're seeing it with places like FINRA, Capital One has been very active as far as evangelizing their use of cloud. It's just been transformative. What does that look like, from being a part of that? >> Well you know it's interesting, so you know you just said it, financial services is the business of risk management. And so to get more and when you see more and more of these financial institutions coming forward and talking about their use of cloud, what that really equates to is comfort, they've got that muscle memory now, they've probably been working with us in some way, shape or form for some great period of time and so if you look at last year, you had Dean Del Vecchio from Guardian Life Insurance come out on stage at Reinvent and say to the crowd "Hey we're a 158 year old insurance company but we've now closed our data center and we're fully on AWS and we've completed the transformation of our organization". The year before you saw Goldman Sachs walk out and say "Yeah we've been working with AWS for about four years now and we're actually using them for some very interesting use cases within Goldman Sachs". And so typically what you've seen is that over the course of about a two year to sometimes a four year time period, you've got institutions that are working deeply with us, but they're not talking about it. They're gaining that muscle memory, they're putting those first use cases to begin to scale that work up and then when they're ready man, they're ready to talk about it and they're excited to talk about it. What's interesting though is today we're having this same summit that we're having here in Cape Town in Africa and we had a customer, Old Mutual, who's one of the biggest insurers there, they just started working with us in earnest back in May and they were on stage today, so you're seeing that actually beginning to happen a lot quicker, where people are building that muscle memory faster and they're much more eager to talk about it. You're going to see that trend I think continue in financial services over the next few years so I'm very excited for future summits as well as Reinvent because the stories that we're going to see are going to come faster. You're going to see more use cases that go a lot deeper in the industry and you're going to see it covering a lot more of the industry. >> It's very much not, IT is no longer what people think of in terms of Tech companies in San Francisco building products. It's banks, it's health care and these companies are transitioning to become technology companies but when your entire, as you mentioned, the entire industry becomes about risk management, it's challenging sometimes to articulate things when you're not both on the same page. I was working with a financial partner years ago at a company I worked for and okay they're a financial institution, they're ready to sign off on this but before that they'd like to tour US East one first and validate that things are as we say they are. The answer is yeah me too, sadly, you folks have never bothered to invite me to tour an active AZ, maybe next year. It's challenging to I guess meet people where they are and speak the right language, the right peace for a long time. >> And that's why you see us have a financial services team in the first place, right? Because your financial services or health care or any of the other industries, they're very unique and they have a very specific language and so we've been very focused on making sure that we speak that language that we have an understanding of what that industry entails and what's important to that industry because as you know Amazon's a very customer obsessed organization and we want to work backwards from our customers and so it's been very important for us to actually speak that language and be able to translate that to our service teams to say hey this is important to financial services and this is why, here's the context for that. I think as we've continued to see more and more financial institutions take on that technology company mindset, I'm a technology company that happens to run a bank or happens to run an exchange company or happens to run an insurance business, it's actually been easier to talk to them about the services that we offer because now they have that mindset, they're moving more towards DevOps and moving more towards agile. And so it's been really easy to actually communicate hey, here are the appropriate changes you have to make, here's how you evolve governance, here's how you address security and compliance and the different levels of resiliency that actually improve from the standpoint of using these services. >> All right so Scott, back before I did this, I worked for some large technology suppliers and there were some groups on Wall Street that have huge IT budgets and IT staffs and actually were very cutting edge in what they were building, in what they were doing and very proud of their IT knowledge, and they were like, they have some of the smartest people in the industry and they spend a ton of money because they need an edge. Talking about transactions on stock markets, if I can translate milliseconds into millions of dollars if I can act faster. So you know, those companies, how are they moving along to do the I need to build it myself and differentiate myself because of my IT versus hey I can now have access to all the services out there because you're offering them with new ones every day, but geez how do I differentiate myself if everybody can use some of these same tools. >> So that's my background as well and so you go back that and milliseconds matter, milliseconds are money, right? When it comes to trading and actually building really bespoke applications on bespoke infrastructure. So I think what we're seeing from a transitional perspective is that you still have that mindset where hey we're really good at technology, we're really good at building applications. But now it's a new toolkit, you have access to a completely new toolkit. It's almost like The Matrix, you know that scene where Neo steps into that white room and hey says "I need this" and then the shelves just show up, that's kind how it is in the cloud, you actually have the ability to leverage the latest and greatest technologies at your fingertips when you want to build and I think that's something that's been a really compelling thing for financial institutions where you don't have to wait to get infrastructure provisioned for you. Before I worked for AWS, I worked for large financial institutions as well and when we had major projects that we had to do that sometimes had a regulatory implication, we were told by our infrastructure team hey that's going to be six months before we can actually get your dev environment built so you can actually begin to develop what you need. And actually we had to respond within about thirty days and so you had a mismatch there. With the cloud you can provision infrastructure easily and you have an access to an array of services that you can use to build immediately. And that means value, that means time to market, that means time to answering questions from customers, that means really a much faster time to answering questions from regulatory agencies and so we're seeing the adoption and the embrace of those services be very large and very significant. >> It's important to make sure that the guardrails are set appropriately, especially for a risk managed firm but once you get that in place correctly, it's an incredible boost of productivity and capability, as opposed to the old crappy way of doing governance of oh it used to take six weeks to get a server in so we're going to open a ticket now whenever you want to provision an instance and it only takes four, yay we're moving faster. It feels like there's very much a right way and a wrong way to start embracing cloud technology. >> Yeah and you know human nature is to take the run book you have today and try to apply it to tomorrow and that doesn't always work because you can use that run book and you'll get down to line four and suddenly line four doesn't exist anymore because of what's happened from a technological change perspective. Yeah I think that's why things like AWS control tower and security hub, which are those guardrails, those services that we announced recently that have gone GA. We announced them a couple of weeks ago at Reinforce in Boston. Those are really interesting to financial services customers because it really begins to help automate a lot of those compliance controls and provisioning those through control tower and then monitoring those through security hub and so you've seen us focus on how do we actually make that easier for customers to do. We know that risk management, we know that governance and controls is very important in financial services. We actually offer our customers a way to look from a country specific angle, add the different countries and the rule sets and the requirements that exist in those countries and how you map those to our controls and how you map those into your own controls and all the considerations that you have, we've got them on our public website. If you went to atlas.aws right now, that's our compliance center, you could actually pick the countries you're interested in and we'll have that mapping for you. So you'll see us continue to invest in things like that to make that much easier for customers to actually deploy quickly and to evolve those governance frameworks. >> And things like with Artifact, where it's just grab whatever compliance report you need, submit it and it's done without having to go through a laborious process. It's click button, receive compliance in some cases. >> If you're not familiar with it you can go into the AWS console and you've got Artifact right there and if you need a SOC report or you need some other type of artifact, you can just download it right there through the console, yeah it's very convenient. >> Yeah so Scott you know we talked about some of the GRC pieces in place, what are you seeing trends out there kind of globally, you know GDRP was something that was on everybody's mind over the last year or so. California has new regulations that are coming in place, so anything specific in your world or just the trends that you're seeing that might impact our environments-- >> I think that the biggest trends I would point to are data analytics, data analytics, data analytics, data analytics. And on top of that obviously machine learning. You know, data is the lifeblood of financial services, it's what makes everything go. And you can look at what's happening in this space where you've got companies like Bloomberg and Refinitiv who are making their data products available on AWS so you can get B-Pipe on AWS today, you can also get the elektron platform from Refintiv and then what people are trying to do in relation to hey I want to organize my data, I want to make it much easier to actually find value in data, both either from the standpoint of regulatory reporting, as you heard Steve talk about on stage today. FINRA is building a very large data repository that they have to from the standpoint of a regulatory perspective with CAT. Broker dealers have to actually feed the CAT and so they are also worried about here in the US, how do I actually organize my data, get all the elements I have to report to CAT together and actually do that in a very efficient way. So that's a big data analytic project. Things that are helping to make that much easier are leg formations, so we came up with leg formation last year and so you've got many financial institutions that are looking at how do you make building a data leg that much easier and then how do you layer analytics on top of that, whether it's using Amazon elastic map reduce or EMR to actually run regulatory reporting jobs or how do I begin to leverage machine learning to actually make my data analytics from a standpoint of trade surveillance or fraud detection that much more enriched and actually looking for those anomalies rather than just looking for a whole bunch of false positives. So data analytics I think is what I would point to as the biggest trend and how to actually make data more useful and how to get to data insights faster. >> On the one end it seems like there's absolutely a lot of potential in this, on the other it feels in many cases with large scale data analytics, it's we have all these tools for machine learning and the rest that we can wind up passing out to you but you need to figure out what to do with them, how to make it work and it's unclear outside of a few specific use cases and I think you've alluded to a couple of those how to take in a typical business that maybe doesn't have an enormous pile of data and start applying machine learning to it in a way that makes intelligent sense. That feels right now like a storytelling failure to some extent industry wide. We're starting to see some stories emerge but it still feels a little "Gold Rush"-y to some extent. >> Yeah I would say, and my advice would be don't try to boil the ocean or don't try to boil the data leg, meaning you want to do machine learning, you've got a great amount of earnestness about that but picture use case, really hone in on what you're trying to accomplish and work backwards from that. And we offer tooling that can be really helpful in that, you know with stage maker you can train your models and you can actually make data science available to a much broader array of people than just your data scientists. And so where we see people focusing first, is where it matters to their business. So if you've got a regulatory obligation to do surveillance or fraud detection, those are great use cases to start with. How do I enhance my existing surveillance or fraud detection, so that I'm not just wading again through a sea of false positives. How do I actually reduce that workload for a human analyst using machine learning. That's a one step up and then you can go from there, you can actually continue to work deeper into the use cases and say okay how do I treat those parameters, how do I actually look for different things that I'm used to with the rules based systems. You can also look at offering more value to customers so with next best offer with Amazon Personalize, we now have encapsulated the service that we use on the amazon.com retail site as a service that we offer to customers so you don't have to build all that tooling yourself, you can actually just consume Personalize as a service to help with those personalized recommendations for customers. >> Scott, really appreciate all the updates on your customers in the financial services industry, thanks so much for joining us. >> Happy to be here guys, thanks for having me. >> All right for Corey Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman, back with more here at AWS Summit in New York City 2019, thanks as always for watching theCube.

(upbeat music) >> Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering AWS re:Invent 2018. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services, Intel, and their ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. Live coverage here in Las Vegas for Amazon re:Invent 2018. Day three, we're winding down over 150 videos. We'll have over 500 clips. Losing the voice. Dave Vellante, my co-host. Suzi analyst tech that we're going to extract theCUBE insights, James Kobielus. David Floyer from Wikibon. Jim you've been prolific on the blogs, Siliconangle.com, great stories. David you've got some research. What's your take? Jim, you're all over what's going on in the news. What's the impact? >> Well I think what this years re:Invent shows is that AWS is doubling down on A.I. If you look at the sheer range of innovative A.I. capabilities they've introduced into their portfolio, in terms of their announcements, it's really significant. A. They have optimized tense or flow for their cloud. B. They now have an automated labeling, called Ground Truth, labeling capability that leverages mechanical turf, which has been an Amazon capability for a while. They've also got now the industries first, what's called reinforcement learning plug-in to their data science tool chain, in this case Sage Maker, reinforcement learning is becoming so important for robotics, and gaming, and lots of other applications of A.I., and I'm just scratching the surface. So they've announced a lot of things, and David can discuss other things, but I'm seeing the depth of A.I. Their investment in it shows that they've really got their fingers on what enterprises are doing, and will be doing to differentiate themselves with this technology over the next five to ten years. >> What's an area that you see that people are getting? Clearly A.I. What areas are people missing that's compelling that you've observed here? >> When you say people are missing, you mean the general...? >> Journalists. >> Oh. >> Audience. There's so much news. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Where are the nuggets that are hidden in the news? (laughing) What are you seeing that people might not see that's different? >> Getting back to the point I was raising, which is that robotics is becoming a predominant application realm for A.I. Robotics, outside the laboratory, or outside of the industrial I.O.T., robots are coming into everything, and there's a special type of A.I. you build into robots, re-enforcement learning is a big part of it. So I think the general, if you look at the journalists, they've missed the fact that I've seen in the past couple of years, robotics and re-enforcement learning are almost on the verge of being mainstream in the space, and AWS gets it. Just the depth of their investments. Like Deep Racer, that cute little autonomous vehicle that they rolled out here at this event, that just shows that they totally get it. That will be a huge growth sector. >> David Floyer, outpost is their on premises cloud. You've been calling this for I don't know how many years, >> (laughing) Three years. >> Three years? >> Yeah. What's the impact? >> And people said, no way Foyer's wrong (laughing). >> So you get vindication but... >> And people, in particular in AWS. (laughing) >> So you're right. So you're right, but is it going to be out in a year? >> Yeah, next in 2019. >> Will this thing actually make it to the market? And if it does what is the impact? Who wins and who loses? >> Well let's start with will it get to the market? Absolutely. It is outposts, AWS Outposts, is the name. It is taking AWS in the cloud and putting it on premise. The same API's. The same services. It'll be eventually identical between the two. And that has enormous increase in the range, and the reach that AWS and the time that AWS can go after. It is a major, major impact on the marketplace, puts pressure on a whole number of people, the traditional vendors who are supplying that marketplace of the moment, and in my opinion it's going to be wildly successful. People have been waiting that, wanting that, particularly in the enterprise market. They reasons for it are simple. Latency, low latency, you've got to have the data and the compute very close together. Moving data is very, very expensive over long distances, and the third one is many people want, or need to have the data in certain places. So the combination is meeting the requirements, they've taken a long time to get there. I think it's going to be, however wildly successful. It's going to be coming out in 2019. They'll have their alpha, their betas in the beginning of it. They'll have some announcements, probably about mid 2019. >> Who's threatened by this? Everybody? Cisco? HP? Dell? >> The integration of everything, storage, networking, compute, all in the same box is obviously a threat to all suppliers within that. And their going to have to adapt to that pretty strongly. It's going to be a declining market. Declining markets are good if you adapt properly. A lot of people make a lot of money from, like IBM, from mainframe. >> It's a huge threat to IBM. >> You're playing it safe. You're not naming names. (laughing) Okay, I'll rephrase. What's your prediction? >> What's my prediction on? >> Of the landscape after this is wildly successful. >> The landscape is that the alternatives is going to be a much, much smaller pie, and only those that have volume, and only those that can adapt to that environment are going to survive. >> Well, and let's name names. So who's threatened by this? Clearly Dell, EMC, is threatened by this. >> HP. >> HP, New Tanix, the VX rat guys, Lenovo is in there. Are they wiped out? No, but they have to respond. How do they respond? >> They have to respond, yeah. They have to have self service. They have to have utility pricing. They have to connect to the cloud. So either they go hard after AWS, connecting AWS, or they belly up to Microsoft >> With Azure Stack, >> Microsoft Azure. that's clearly going to be their fallback place, so in a way, Microsoft with Azure Stack is also threatened by this, but in a way it's goodness for them because the ecosystem is going to evolve to that. So listen, these guys don't just give up. >> No, no I know. >> They're hard competitors, they're fighters. It's also to me a confirmation of Oracle's same same strategy. On paper Oracle's got that down, they're executing on that, even though it's in a narrow Oracle world. So I think it does sort of indicate that that iPhone for the enterprise strategy is actually quite viable. If I may jump in here, four things stood out to me. The satellite as a service, was to me amazing. What's next? Amazon with scale, there's just so many opportunities for them. The Edge, if we have time. >> I was going to talk about the Edge. >> Love to talk about the Edge. The hybrid evolution, and Open Source. Amazon use to make it easy for the enterprise players to complete. They had limited sales and service capabilities, they had no Open Source give back, they were hybrid deniers. Everything's going to go into the public cloud. That's all changed. They're making it much, much more difficult, for what they call the old guard, to compete. >> So that same way the objection? >> Yeah, they're removing those barriers, those objections. >> Awesome. Edge. >> Yeah, and to comment on one of the things you were talking about, which is the Edge, they have completely changed their approach to the Edge. They have put in Neo as part of Sage Maker, which allows them to push out inference code, and they themselves are pointing out that inference code is 90% of all the compute, into... >> Not the training. >> Not the training, but the inference code after that, that's 90% of the compute. They're pushing that into the devices at the Edge, all sorts of architectures. That's a major shift in mindset about that. >> Yeah, and in fact I was really impressed by Elastic Inference for the same reasons, because it very much is a validation of a trend I've been seeing in the A.I. space for the last several years, which is, you can increasingly build A.I. in your preferred visual, declarative environment with Python code, and then the abstraction layers of the A.I. Ecosystem have developed to a point where, the ecosystem increasingly will auto-compile to TensorFlow, or MXNet, or PyTorch, and then from there further auto-compile your deployed trained model to the most efficient format for the Edge device, for the GP, or whatever. Where ever it's going to be executed, that's already a well established trend. The fact that AWS has productized that, with this Elastic Inference in their cloud, shows that not only do they get that trend, they're just going to push really hard. I'm making sure that AWS, it becomes in many ways, the hub of efficient inferencing for everybody. >> One more quick point on the Edge, if I may. What's going on on the Edge reminds me of the days when Microsoft was trying to take Windows and stick it on mobile. Right, the windows phone. Top down, I.T. guys coming at it, >> Oh that's right. >> and that's what a lot of people are doing today in IT. It's not going to work. What Amazon is doing see, we're going to build an environment that you can build applications on, that are secure, you can manage them from a bottoms up approach. >> Yeah. Absolutely. >> Identifying what the operations technology developers want. Giving them the tools to do that. That's a winning strategy. >> And focusing on them producing the devices, not themselves. >> Right. >> And not declaring where the boundaries are. >> Spot on. >> Very very important. >> Yep. >> And they're obviously inferencing, you get most value out of the data if you put that inferencing as close as you possibly can to that data, within a camera, is in the camera itself. >> And I eluded to it earlier, another key announcement from AWS here is, first of all the investment in Sage Maker itself is super impressive. In the year since they've introduced it, look at they've already added, they have that slide with all the feature enhancements, and new modules. Sage Maker Ground Truth, really important, the fully managed service for automating labeling of training datasets, using Mechanical Turk . The vast majority of the costs in a lot of A.I. initiatives involves human annotators of training data, and without human annotated training data you can't do supervised learning, which is the magic on a lot of A.I, AWS gets the fact that their customers want to automate that to the nth degree. Now they got that. >> We sound like Fam boys (laughing). >> That's going to be wildly popular. >> As we say, clean data makes good M.L., and good M.L. makes great A.I. >> Yeah. (laughing) >> So you don't want any dirty data out there. Cube, more coverage here. Cube insights panel, here in theCUBE at re:Invent. Stay with us for more after this short break. (upbeat music)

(bright music) >> Hello everyone, welcome to a special Cube Conversation here, in the Palo Alto studios, for theCUBE, I'm John Furrier, the founder of SiliconeANGLE Media and theCUBE, and cohost of theCUBE. My next guest is Adrian Scott, who is the CEO of Soma Capital and Head of Technology of decent.bet. You can get the idea of that going to be all about, but, industry legend-- >> Yeah. >> Star of the big screen, good to see you, thanks for comin' in. >> Thank you John, it's great to see you. >> I'm glad I wanted to talk to you, because I know you've been doing a lot of traveling, you've been living in Panama, and overseas, outside the US, mainly around the work you've been doing on the crypto side, obviously Blockchain and with the start of decent.bet, lot of great stuff, but congratulations on a successful initial coin offering! >> Thank you. >> Great stuff, but you're also notable in the industry, initial investor in Napster, our generation, first P2P, the first renegade, you know, break down the movie business, but the beginning of what we're now seeing as that decentralized revolution. But you've seen many waves of innovation. You've seen 'em come and go. But this one in particular, Blockchain, decentralized internet, decentralized applications, crypto. Pretty awesome, and lot of young guns are coming in, a lot of older, experienced, alpha entrepreneurs are coming in like yourself, and, we're lookin' at it too. What's your take on it? I mean, how do you talk people that are like, "Well, hey, this is just a scam on the ICS site, "is this real, is it a bubble?" Share your vision on what this is all about, this whole mega-trend, crypto, decentralized. >> And I'll also add, in addition to what you mentioned, the other neat thing here is just the global nature of it. Because we're so used to being Silicon Valley-centric, and having to dig around for funding here, and also, looking only at talent that would move here, whereas with this whole new industry, it's very global, there's global teams, international teams, and, some of the Silicon Valley folks are just struggling to stay relevant, and stay in the game, so that's a fascinating aspect to this new revolution as well. >> And also, the thing I love about this market, it's very efficient, it takes away inefficiencies, in venture capital right now, and private equity being disrupted, that's where the arbitrage is, hence the ICO bubble, but, there is real, legit opportunities, you have Soma Capital, you're an investment fund, that you're doing token investments on. The global nature is interesting, I want to just ask here about this, because, my view is, it changes valuation, it changes valuation mechanisms, it changes the makeup of the venture architecture, it makes up on how people recruit teams, the technology used, and with open source, I mean, this is a first-time view at a new landscape. You can't take a pattern match, model, to this, your thoughts. >> Agree completely, and the efficiency you mentioned, applied to teams, and surfacing engineering talent, and the mathematical minds that can handle crypto internationally, the formation of teams internationally online is actually something special as well, so, with Decent Bet, our team, our founding team includes folks from the US, Panama, Australia, as well, who met up, in a Facebook chat group! And that's how they initially connected, and they didn't know each other physically, before this connection online, and that led to this project, Decent Bet, and ICO, and so on. So it's-- >> You created value from essentially a digital workforce, but, I mean, it reminds me of, like in the old days, you'd chat, and it wasn't a lot of face-to-face, but then now there's video gaming culture, you know, you come in, "Hey, you want to play a game," people don't even know each other, and get a visual, and also an immersive experience with each other. This is now the application for entrepreneurial equations, so this kind of gaming, the game is startups! So how are you looking at this, and how are you investing in it, what are some of the things, and what can people learn from what we're seeing in this new game-ified, if you will, you know, world of starting companies? >> I think one of the things you alluded to there has really become visible, which is the importance of video, as a medium, and I'm still, absorbing and adjusting to that myself. For example, we do video communications, we do conversations at Decent Bet, of the founding team, and, it really connects to the community, and it's so important, and I'm still absorbing it, like I mentioned, 'cause I'm just so used to publishing articles that are very clearly written, and detailed, and so on. We just did an AMA video, an Ask Me Anything video, in Las Vegas, with the executive team, and it went for 80 minutes, answering the questions, that the community had all submitted! And I just try and imagine that five years ago, it's new way of relating-- >> 'Cause there was no blogging, link back, the only thing you could do in blogging. >> Yeah. >> And then write a perfect blog post, or white paper. >> Exactly. >> And that was who you were. >> Yeah. >> Not anymore, it's more community driven. >> Exactly, and that video as a piece of it, has become so, so important, as a way of communicating the character of the team, and-- >> Before we get into decent.bet, I want to drill those, I think it's a great use case, and again, congratulations on great work there. I want to ask you about something that I've been fascinated with, because I obviously, our generation, we grew up on open source when it was second-class citizen, now it runs the whole world, as first-tier, first-class citizen in software world. The role of the community was really important in software development, 'cause that kept a, it kept a balance, there was governance, was consensus, these are words that you hear in the crypto world. And now, whether it's content and or ICO, the role of the community, and certainly, areas that's out of control in the ICO site, people are cracking down on certainly, like you see Facebook and Twitter trying to do something, but you can't stop the wisdom of the crowd. The role of the community in this crypto, decentralized market, ICOs and whatnot, is super important. Can you share your thoughts, and color commentary on why the community's so important, how do you deal with it (laughs), any best practices, either through scar tissue, or successes, share your thoughts on this. >> Oh yeah, it's totally become a factor, and it's 24/7, right? So, when you are running a crypto project, you need your community management team to be there, in the community channels, 24/7, you need to have somebody there, and they need to be at a certain level that they can handle the challenging questions! And we've definitely had moments where, we have people who try to create FUD, potentially, you know, and bring up stuff, and bring it up again later and whatnot, and we need to be proactive, so when questions come up, we were there to be able to explain, "Okay, here's where you can see this on the Blockchain. "You can verify it yourself." And sometimes, it happens when the team is just about to get on a plane (laughs), and be out of internet communication for a while, so, it's a real challenge, and there's been the voice of experience, on that. >> So talk about how you guys connect, because obviously, being connected is important with community access, but also, with connection, increases the service area for hacks, are you guys carrying five burner phones each, how do you handle email, how have you guys dealt with the whole, you know, there is a lot of online activity, certainly, people trying to do some spear phishing, or whatever tactics there are. Telegram has been littered with a lot of spoofing, and what not, so, all this is going on, that you got to have access communication. But there's a safety component that could have really big impacts to these businesses, that aren't tokeners, because, hacking can be easy if you don't protect yourself. >> We really like Signal app, as a communications medium, there's a new one, starting to grow now, called Threema, which is pretty interesting. Telegram, is just a real challenge, and it's unfortunate, because it's now become this metric. >> How many people are active on your channels-- >> That investors like to look at the size of the Telegram group, but we don't actually have a Telegram group for Decent Bet. And we've used Slack, we are going to be rolling out a internally hosted Slack replacement soon based on Rocket.Chat, we really like Rocket.Chat. As you mentioned, there are spear phishing, we do see that, and, one of the nice things is, a few years ago, you had trouble convincing a team to take security seriously! But you know, when you have team members who may have lost $10,000 in a hack-- >> Or more! >> Or more, you know, there's no question that this needs to be a priority, and everybody buys in on it. So that is one net positive out of this. >> Well let's talk about Decent Bet, fascinating use case, it's in the gaming area, gaming as in like betting, my friend Paul Martino invested I think in DraftKings, one of those other companies, I forget which one it was. In the US, there was regulatory issues, but, you know, outside the US where I think you guys are, there's not as much issue. Perfect use case for tokens, in my opinion. So, take a minute to explain Decent Bet, what you guys are all about, and talk about the journey of conception, when you guys conceived it, to ICO. >> Yeah. Decent Bet was founded about a year ago, by the CEO Jedidiah Taylor, who developed an interesting idea, and plan, so, the neat thing about Decent Bet is, first of all, you have all the benefits of the Ethereum Blockchain, in terms of verifying, transactions, and verifying the house's take. Additionally, what Decent Bet does is distributes all the profits of the casino back to the token-holders. 95% goes as proportionally, and then 5% is awarded in a lottery, so there's no profit for any Decent Bet entity, it all goes back to the tokenholders. So you use the token to play, by gambling, but you can also use your token to convert into house shares, for a quarter, and participate in-- >> So the house always wins, that a good model, right? >> Yes. >> You could become the house, through the tokens. >> Exactly, so, the motto we use is our house is your house (laughs). >> Don't bet against the house. >> Yeah. >> Alright so, I love the gambling aspect of it, I think that's going to be a winner. Tech-involved, ICO process bumps, learnings, things you could share with folks? >> Yeah, so, on the technology, one of the neat things we are doing is, we do offer a slots game, which is a primary component of online gambling, and casinos, a pretty dominant piece of the action. But, if you are going to do a simple slots game on the Blockchain, and wait around for blocks to be mined, you're not going to have a great experience. 'Cause you're going to be waiting around, more than you're going to be clicking that button. So, what we use is a technology called state channels, which allows us to do a session, kind of on a side channel, so to speak, and through this state channel, at the end of the session, you post back the results. So you get the verifiability of the Blockchain, but without the delay. So that's a major difference. >> That's off chain, right? >> Yeah. >> Or the on chain is off chain. >> It's kind of-- >> So you're managing the league, to see the chain, so you still experience, and then get to preserve it on the chain. >> Exactly-- >> Okay. >> In terms of the ICO experience, we initiated the ICO end of September, ran for a month, raised more than 52,000 Ether, so very productive ICO process, but with actually some interesting details, so, the ICO structure limited the amount that a particular address could purchase, in the first phases, to 10,000 worth, and then 20,000 dollars worth, with the idea of getting the tokens into the hand of, of people who are going to potentially use them for betting, not just-- >> The more the merrier for you, not, no one taking down allocations, big players. >> Exactly. >> Or whales. >> Not just for the whales, take all, kind of thing. So, that was a interesting structure, and-- >> And that worked well? >> Yeah! >> Alright, talk about the dynamic of post-ICO, because now you guys are building, can you give an update on the state of where you guys are at with the product, availability, how that's going, 'cause obviously you raised the capital through the ICO, democratize it if you will through clever mechanism, which is cool, thanks for sharing that, now what happens? Now, what's going on? >> Yeah, I mean, I think we're doing pretty well in terms of hitting milestones, and showing progress compared to a lot of projects, we released our test net, with slots, and then sportsbook, at the beginning of January, and mid-January, for sportsbook. And, we also did some upgrades with our wallet, we released that, for some enhanced usability, and handling during high peaks on the Ether network, Ethereum network. And then, also, our moving to main net. So we did some newer versions of the test net-- >> When did the main net come in? >> Main net is coming out end of April, and we're on track with that. >> Great, awesome. Congratulations, congratulations on a great job, 52,000 Ether, great raise there, and awesome opportunity. Soma Capital. >> Mm-hmm. >> You're investing now, what do you look for for deals, there's more money chasing good deals now, as we can see, has been a flight to quality obviously. Great global landscape still, what are you looking for? And advice to folks who are looking to do a token, sale, what's your-- >> Big thing we look for are real projects, so (laughs), and they're not that many out there, so we do look for a real use case that makes sense, because, there's a lot of folks out there just sticking Blockchain tag onto anything. And it's not just-- >> Like Kodak for instance. >> Yeah. >> Kodak's the prime example. >> Yes. There are projects out there doing interesting things, Guardium is doing some neat things in terms of 911 response, and opening that up, and creating an alternative to government services. There's WorkCoin, which is-- >> Do you invest in Guardium? >> Yeah, in Guardium, yeah. >> I interviewed them in Puerto Rico. >> Okay, great. >> Great project. >> So very interesting, I was recently giving a talk at a university in Guatemala, and, the students there at business school, it really resonated, the message there, to them, about okay, government 911 is maybe not the ultimate solution for getting help when you need it. >> Well I think, there's a lot of this AI for a good concept, going to Blockchain for good, because, you're seeing a lot of these easy, low-hanging fruit applications around these old structural intuitions. And that's where the action is, right, I mean, do you agree? >> Yeah, yes. And the other thing we're looking at is not just Blockchain. So I really like talking about the field more as crypto, and, I have a little video I did on calling it kind of decentralized, crypto-enabled applications, or platforms. So, beyond Blockchain, we have DAGs, Directed Acyclic Graphs, one interesting-- >> Like Hashgraph. >> Yeah, Ha-- >> Hashgraph's a DAG, isn't it? It's kind of a DAG, Hashgraph? >> Yeah, so, I'm not a huge fan of Hashgraph, one that I do like is called Guld, G-U-L-D, which is, again, thinking beyond the Blockchain. 'Cause we get so tied into Blockchain, Blockchain, Blockchain-- >> What does beyond the Blockchain mean to you? Thinking beyond the Blockchain, what does that mean to you? >> So, the proof of work process, the mining process, the creating new blocks process, is one way of doing things. But we have all these other things going on in crypto, like the signing process, and so on, and so, you can use those in a DAG, a different architecture than just this mining new blocks, you know, mental model. And so, that can be used for different use cases, for publishing, for group consensus, and so on. And so, Guld is an example of a project where it looks like there is something real there, and that's a very interesting product. >> Advice for folks that are looking at tokeneries, because, again, we've said this on theCUBE many times, people know, I'm beating this drum, you got the startups, that see an opportunity, which is fantastic, and then on the end of the spectrum, you got the, "Oh, shit, we're out of business, "let's pivot, throw the Hail Mary, put Blockchain on it, "crypto, and get an ICO, and get some going." And then you've got these growth companies that are, either self funded and or growing, that have decentralized kind of feel to it, it has an architecture that's compatible with tokenization. >> Yeah. >> So we see those three categories. Do you agree, am I missing anything? In terms of the profile? And which ones do you like? >> Well, I think one thing that we need to look at, in each of those cases, is decentralization actually happening, in the project? And are people actually thinking about decentralization. Because, it can be scary for a traditional company! Because, if it truly becomes decentralized, you're not controlling it anymore. And so, that is-- >> If you're based on control, then it's incompatible. >> And that's the real Hail Mary, right? (laughs) When you give up that control, if you give it up, so, we have examples coming out, where, you know, Ripple is running just a few nodes, Neo's running a few more, and you know, things that are not really decentralized, and they're saying, "Well, we're going to be," (laughs) you know? >> Will they ever? >> Is it going to be in the future-- >> Yeah, that's always the question, will they ever be? They've already made their money, well certainly Ripple's done well, but, I mean, what's the incentive to go-- >> Yeah. >> Decentralized. >> Yeah, so if, if you are creating a new project, the benefit from this architecture, beyond the money, is to think about it in that decentralized way, and figure out token economics that work, in that context, in that paradigm! And that's really where the challenge is, but also really where some of the benefits can rise, because, that is what enables truly new ways of doing things. >> Talk about the dynamic, because I actually, I live in Silicon Valley, I've been here 19 years, going on 20, you know, I moved from the east coast, and basically, if you weren't here, this is where the action is. If you're in the sports of tech, this is where all the athletes are. That's now changed, as you mentioned earlier, when we started, it's everywhere. Now, also there's jurisdictional issues, I mean the US, one guy's told me, the US is turning into Europe, all these regulations, it's not as much free capital as you think, and then, we certainly know that. With FCC, and others are putting the clamp down. But, structuring the token, is a concern, right? Or consideration. >> Yes. >> And a concern, so, you know, US entrepreneur, what should they do in your opinion, and if someone's outside the US, what do they do? What's the play book, or, not play book, what's the best path right now? >> Leave the US (laughs). Move out of the US. >> Tell that, wife and four kids. See you later. Yeah, but that's real legit, that's-- >> Come and check out Panama, one of my friends is building a Blockchain incubator, crypto-incubator, I mean I think if you're-- >> What's it like to move out of the United States, I know you just recently went to Panama for this, but, what's it like? Is it scary down there, I mean, is it entrepreneurially friendly? What's the vibe, what's the scene like, take a minute to explain that. >> So I've actually been out there 12 years now, in Panama. One of the neat things, you want a place that has an international outlook, international perspectives, so, you want to think in terms of a Dubai, a Singapore, a Hong Kong. And so, Panama has some aspects of that, it's not perfect, but it does have that international perspective thanks to the Canal! So it has, you know, a hundred years! (laughs) >> It also has the Panama papers, which is a negative blowback for those guys, so it's a safe place to do commerce, in your opinion? >> Um, it is a nice geographic base to do international commerce. >> Got it. >> So, you don't necessarily want to rely on the local jurisdiction, but, in terms of a geographic base, that is US time zone, US dollar, no hurricanes, it's a very interesting place. >> Puerto Rico's got the hurricanes, we know that. >> Yeah. >> Final thoughts, just overall perspective, you've been around the block, we've been around the block, both of us have, I mean, I kind of have these pinch me almost like, "Damn, this is great time, "I wish I was 22," I mean, do you have those? What's it like, how you explain this environment? If people ask you, "Hey, what was it like in the old days?" You know, when you have to provision all your own stack, and do all the stuff, it's pretty interesting right now. What's your thoughts? >> Yeah, I mean, I think we're going through an interesting moment right now, where, we are getting to a point where the forces of centralization are coming against the forces of decentralization, and that includes from the regulatory, as well as the business side, and so, I think it is important, as we look where to dedicate our efforts to, to really find ways to increase the decentralization as a factor that encourages creativity, and entrepreneurship. >> Yeah, it really is a personal, I think it's a great environment. Decent.bet, bet, make your bets, any updates on how to get tokens, what people can expect, a quick plug-in for Decent. >> Yeah, check out our website, we've got links to exchanges, the token is currently listed on Cryptotopia, HitBTC, and a couple other exchanges, and, yeah! Please check out the test net, please check out the white paper, and just learn about how this protocol works, this platform works. I think it is very inspiring, as a structure. >> Adrian Scott here, inside theCUBE, Soma Capital, also experienced entrepreneur himself, technologist, and has been through the ICO process, head of technology at decent.net, we'll be checkin' it out, it's theCUBE Conversation, I'm John Furrier, here in Palo Alto, California. Thanks for watching. (bright music)

>> Narrator: Live from San Juan, Puerto Rico It's theCUBE. Covering Blockchain Unbound. Brought to you by Blockchain Industries. (latin music) >> Hello and welcome back to theCUBE exclusive coverage in Puerto Rico for Blockchain Unbound I'm John Furrier, your host, here covering all the action in Puerto Rico as the global society and industry come together. Our next guest is Marhall Taplits he's the Chief Strategy Officer and Co Founder of Nynja.biz, check out their site, Nynja.biz. Marshall, thanks for joining me. >> Thank you. >> So tell about what you guys do. You guys are doing some disruptive stuff, tell us about what you guys do, then it will jam into a conversation. >> Sure, so are you familiar with WeChat in China, for example? >> Yeah. >> Okay great. So I've personally been living in China 15 years, so we've watched kind of the birth of the Chinese internet, which as we know, is a little different than the regular internet. >> A lot of mobile users. >> A lot of mobile users, 800 million China mobile subscribers alone. WeChat, basically, is a platform that started off as just a messenger but basically what it's done is it's integrated into every facet of Chinese society. To give you an example, you go to a restaurant, you scan the QR code, the menu comes up, you pick the food, you pay for the food, it comes, you walk out. Everything like that is in China. Everything like that is in Wuzhen China. So what we've done is we've kind of taken this concept, and we're working on a global version of it, that's cryptocurrency based, and we are working specifically with Chinese companies in order to help them go global as part of the China One Belt One Road program and working with companies like Alibaba, what have you, in order to help Chinese companies go overseas and take what they've built in China but operate globally with cryptocurrency. >> Are you guys in China? Cause it's been hard for companies to start companies in China. So you're living in China or you're working in China? >> Yeah so because we live in Shenzhen, right next to it is Hong Kong. Hong Kong is where our company is based. Hong Kong, as you know, previous British colony, the legal system, and the financial system-- >> And you domicile in Hong Kong, that's where you're based? >> Me personally in Shenzhen, but the company is in Hong Kong. So we also have a Wyoming corporation in the US. >> That's where all the action is. >> That's right >> That's where WeChat is >> That's right >> Alibaba's got Alipay and then there's more business to business with their app. So I get that WeChat's been highly successful. In fact we have a huge following on WeChat, Sou Kanai, Niki Bond, free content. But that brings up the question of Chinese kind of showing the way with mobile expansion, so their users are heavily mobile savy. >> Marshall: That's right. >> This is pretty obvious when you think about it, but in America and around the world, that's going to translate to the new user experience. So in your opinion, how would you describe the expectations that users have? Because you're living on the front end of the wave of what mobile's doing, I mean there's a lot of gamification going on, some if it's kind of creepy, but what is your view of the expectations that users have and what's different about what's currently available in the webstac, and the 20 year old e-commerce stacks, that are out there? >> Sure, I think the most important thing is reducing friction, all right. You don't want to be using platforms where you can not do it wherever you are whenever you are, you don't want to have to go through payment processes, you don't want to have to re-authenticate yourself across whatever platforms you use. And interestingly, when I first went to China, it was all about copying what was in the west over to there, but actually it's kind of the opposite now, right, so we basically want to take this concept of the frictionless digital life, and make it a global opportunity. And especially with BlockChain and cryptocurrency you have that really as an opportunity, because if you look at all the apps that are out there, and the platforms that are out there, the only ones that have gone past a billion users, WhatsApp, Instagram, whatever are the free ones. But as soon as you layer in payment, it becomes very locked. And as big as WeChat is, and as big as LINE is, but ultimately it's locked into the Rem and B system or Reo in Korea, what have you, so the cryptocurrency is really the first opportunity that the world's had to create platforms that can get up to a billion, two billion, three billion users that are able to pay. And we just think that's a once in a lifetime opportunity and we want to be part of it. >> So I got to ask you about the impact that cloud computing has had on this, obviously we've seen cloud computing destroy the data center model, allow people to get time to value faster, mobile on top, big data analytics using data, all this stuff's awesome stuff. So the question is, is that, that's kind of a horizontally disruptive view, so these stacks that are built old way where I got to own the stack end to end, yeah there's some standardization on the lower end of the stack. But now you're thinking about more of a horizontal, I got jurisdictions, I got regions, I got countries, I got sovereignty, all these things are in the melting pot of the cryptocurrency BlockChain, de-centralized applications, are major impacts to all those things. How do you see that playing out because, that's kind of what developers worry about, oh shit will this work on that chain? I got Neo I got this I got that, so the plumbing is totally a moving train right now. >> Marshall: That's right. >> But the business models are pretty obvious. So there's like a business ops thing going on. What Dev opts did for Cloud, you got this new abstraction thing going on with this world. What's your view on that, do you agree? Or what's your take? >> Yeah well you pretty much nailed it. I mean basically what's happening is over the last 10 or 15 years people have finally accepted that having your own server is kind of silly, you know, and most people now will just spin up whatever they need in terms of resources on TheCloud. But over the last couple years, you're really going more toward Edge Cloud, where the way the clouds work, is that basically it's pushing to get the least amount of latency and store the data as close to the user as possible. And then there's also regulatory in some countries now in terms of, if your users are from this country, you have to legally store the data in this area. So this is all kind of evolving. And if you look at the BlockChain technology, I think it's the payment version of that. So for example, everyone's always concerned about getting in and out of Fiat Currency, and how am I going to get back to dollars, and this and that, but I think what's going to wind up happening, is this is going to get pushed towards the edges and there will be opportunities and ways with exchanges and what have you to get in and out. But more importantly, it's going to be like, just other currencies, so for example, I live in China but I come to the US a few times a year, I also travel to Europe, I have some dollars, I have some Euros, I have some Rem and B, when I leave China, I don't immediately sell all of my Rem and B, I just keep it because at some point I'm going to need it. And I think what's going to happen in the cryptocurrency space is, especially on the larger BlockChains, like Ethereum and Neo and what have you, is people are just going to get used to keeping some of it and they're going to stop worrying about what the exact exchange rate is and how am I going to get in and out, and this and that, and they're just going to start treating it as part of their currency stack that they keep. >> Yeah as long as there's some level of stability. It's just like, I remember when I was growing up, there was no Euro, every country had their own currency. You had the French Franc, the Swiss Francs, the Deutsche Mark, Lira, etc, etc. But you're seeing that the viability of the money aspect, cause at the end of the day there's two things that we've identified in analysis, and I was talking about it last night, talked about it this morning on theCUBE, is the killer apps for BlockChain cryptocurrency, these sorts of apps is two things, money and marketplaces. >> Marshall: That's right. >> Everything else is just kind of circling around those two. >> Well there's more but certainly that's the main part of it >> Money, moving around. So the UK just announced with coin based, the Financial Conduct Authority, reading the news yesterday, has essentially said we're going to allow for the fast payment system to convert to Fiat. This is a government, the UK is a nation. This is the beginning, to your point, that if they don't get up to speed, the edge of the network will democratize them and kind of circle the wagons, if you will, so it's already happening. >> Yeah and I think what governments are starting to realize is hey guys this is just a technology and not only do you don't really have jurisdiction to control it, but also that you don't even have the technical means. So Wyoming is a good example of regulation coming into play, that just kind of accepts the presence that this now exists, right. And they're not going to try to make it something and fit it into the old way. So, and in terms of the stability of these coins, I think it is important because people want stability, but in other ways, if you don't look at the exchange rate, it's actually way more stable than the current system, and I'll give an example. In the last month or two, the prices of cryptocurrency have dropped almost 40%. Now if the stock markets and the global affects markets drop 40%, you'd have blood in the streets. But the crypto market is asset based instead of debt based and because it's so structurally sound it's able to handle these wild swings without actually collapsing the system, so in may ways, it's way more stable, and then as the market gaps and the buy in of these currencies get bigger and bigger, of course it's going to be more stable over time. >> Well I mean its stable from a fail standpoint, but a lot of emotional instability. People losing money for the first time. >> But that's just because they're-- >> That's a lot of speculation, right? >> There's a lot of speculating and then if they're down they feel like they lost but, that's life. >> People that are into the game, like you, were long on this. So what would you explain to someone, cause I have two, a lot of friends that have two schools of thought, that's a total scam, don't associate with that, to oh my god, that's the next biggest wave, lets get our surfboards out there and lets get on this, there's a multiple set coming in, it's the biggest thing we've seen, and everything in between. How do you explain it to people for the first time? >> It's just your traditional curve, there's early adopters and what have you, and if you were one of the guys buying up domaine names in the early 90s, you know some people would say I can't believe you're spending $100,000 buying up domaine names, but some of them now are worth, you know, tens of millions of dollars. But again, this is the speculatory piece of it. And there's no shortage of opportunities for speculation and I encourage everybody to speculate a little bit because what it does is it gets you a taste of the technology. And usually, when you have some money on the line, you pay more attention, so if speculation is what gets people interested, and it gets them watching it and understanding the technology and using it, then I'm all for it, but people shouldn't be speculating with money they don't have. Anything could happen in the short term. Nobody knows what's going to happen with any specific currency. But in terms of the technology itself, this is a revolution way bigger than the internet itself. This is where you're getting, not only, communications like the internet, but financing governance and all as one. Programmable money, programmable contracts, that wipes out finance, it wipes out legal, it whites out governance in many ways. So this is a huge evolution in human society, and we've termed this Open Unity actually. And so we believe that society has to reach a state of open unity in order to go into the singularity as we would envision it wanting to be, as something that's under our control. >> Yeah and I think one of the things, first of all that's a great statement, well said. I'll just kind of put some reality on that, connect the dots, is that if you look at the trajectory of cloud computing, Amazon Web Services was laughed at years ago. S3 came out, compute storage building, basic building blocks and a slew more services. What Cloud did for software developers, and what they've disrupted from a business standpoint, dev ops, it's proven. What open source has done, even going back to the old red-hat days and linux, is that now a tier one global citizen in software, you look at those two trends, you can connect that dots to what you just said. And what made Cloud great was they made application developers have access to programmable infrastructure. >> Marshall: Exactly. >> You're talking about a whole nother level of software programmability, money, marketplace, society, >> Yeah you hit it on the head. >> We're there right? >> That's exactly right, so when a programmer wants to start a business, instead of going to create an LLC, and getting their EIN Tax ID or whatever, and when they want to go into Europe, and dealing with that and then trying to open a bank account, which is almost impossible, internationally now, instead of that, you just have your SDKs and your APIs or whatever and you've got access to money, program adding, you can take money, you can move money around, globally, frictionless, permissionless, with governancy, smart contracts-- >> They might not not need an SDK dashboard, its a console, click, click, click, smart contracts, governance, turn key. >> And one of the things we're working on with Nynja in particular, is this kind of on-demand marketplace and putting together a de-centralized teams for work. And this is all driven by smart contracts. So one of the issues with the economy is the huge booms and busts that people have in the economy. And if you look at the root cause of that, my personal opinion, is that it's because of payment terms. So for example, if I do work for you, and then there's an invoice, but it's not due for 30 days, now your business may be structurally sound, but the truth is your cashflow is all over the place. With BlockChain technology, we can actually do real time payments. You could be paid minute by minute, hour by hour. Real time, program, contract. So we're going to create very flat even money flows through the entire economy globally, and we're going to just completely remove these booms and busts that are really nothing more than just cashflow issues that are compounded and compounded at a global level. >> I mean I lived through the dot com bubble, I was actually part of it on the front end, on the euphoria side, as well as on the crash. Part of the whole search paradigm, google right there. Key words, all that stuff happening, growth, massive growth. So I saw that, the scammers in there, or the bubble people, that's what we called them. But the reality is, everything happened. It was pet foods online, you could get shopping delivered to your house. So again, to your point, it's a little euphoric right now, but what's different is, is you have now, community data. See what I see happening is, it's not a major bubble crash, because self government, self governing, self governance, is a community dynamic. So I think there's going to be a lot of self healing, inside the networks themselves. You're already seeing it here, a lot of people, bad act is being identified, investors flight to quality, looking at quality deals. Interesting times, your thoughts? >> Well I mean you know, we've been through many evolutions of society, we've had surf-dom, we've had monarchies, we've had representative democracies, we have all these things, and I just think the next evolution is decentralized governance. And we don't even know what that means yet, because it's just starting, but I think we can all, if we can close our eyes and really think about it. I think it's pretty obvious what the issues are with our current system and not just the US, but globally, and I think we have an opportunity here to build in organic program governance. And what's really special about BoxChain technology is if I program it to do X, it's going to do X. So we don't need to, I don't need to know who you are to trust you. I don't need to worry about where we're going to sue each other, or we're going to have arbitration if things go wrong. We're just going to make an agreement, and we're going to program it that way, and that's it. And now the next phase is, I could build on top of that trusting that that's just going to happen. So you can create these chains of trust, and that can happen anywhere in the world. So I think this is a whole nother-- >> Sounds like a bunch of web services. >> Well in many ways, in terms of the architecture, sure you could absolutely think of it like that. >> The reusability, the leverage is amazing. All right, so I want to just end the segment Marshall, take a minute to end the segment, to talk about what you're working on, Nynja coin, Nynja, N-Y-N-J-A .biz, you guys have a product, you got a BlockChain enabled platform, you got a coin, take a minute to explain what you're working on. >> Basically we want to provide the tools and services to help people live in this new reality. So in order to basically function in the world that we're entering into, we're going to need tools that far surpass what's currently available in terms of the messengers, the web sites, all these things. We need to be operating at a level that takes communication completely frictionless, payment completely frictionless, and governance completely frictionless. And we have to put this all together, and that's what we're doing with Nynja. We're staring with a global communicator, which is basically, if you want to take WeChat, telegram, whatever, but we have about 50 additional features that really take communications to the next level. And then on top of it, creating the baseline with cryptocurrency payment, and also smart contract wizards and helping people kind of get these teams going and get paid and organize their financial life in a de-centralized way. So we're just basically going to be the next generation of these messenger type platforms with BlockChain integrated. And what you're going to see is that over the next couple years you're going to get to the first companies that are achieving not just a billion or two billion or three billion users, but paying users, and we're going to be one of the probably three to five platforms that are offering tools at the global level like this. >> And have you got an IC already or not? >> We've just started our private ICO about two weeks ago. We're getting tremendous support in Asia. Quite frankly, the US is not seeing it as much-- >> Is it a utility token or security? >> Utility Token, and I think it's really telling, interesting, coming here. It's the first time I've been doing the presenting. We spoke yesterday at the d10e and we also spoke at d10e in Korea a week or two ago, and the response is incredible. And I think the reason is because-- >> The Asian market gets it. >> Well they're already living in this world within their own confines in terms of the messenger with their payment and governance built in, so when I tell them that we're going to do this globally with crypto, immediately they get it. I'm having trouble here, especially in these five minute pitches which is ridiculous, it's like a chop shop, I don't know how to communicate the idea within this short time frame, so, what I'm looking for while we're here this week is just to find people who really want to take an hour or two or even people like yourself who want to do interviews and just kind of really talk to people and really explain-- >> Well platform is complex, a lot of pieces to it. It's a system, but the value you offer is essentially offering developers, who are building products, for tools that you've built so they can scale faster. That sounds like your value. >> That's right and although I can't say specifically, we're also working on a deal that's going to get us started with about 15 million active users on day one, so that's very exciting and we're really really excited about that. >> And the coins will be utility of measures, what? >> Sorry? >> Well your utility coins going to be measuring what, what's the main token economics that drives the-- >> For the ICO economics? >> Your Nynja Coin. >> So basically we're releasing 5 billion tokens, 45% of them will be sold. There's five cents a token, so the hard cap, by definition is about 112 million, actually we're planning to do the public sale in April, but we may cancel it or postpone it just because the private sale is going really well, but we'll see how that goes. But in terms of once it's live, this will basically be the utility token of the entire eco-system, so anybody, not just within our Nynja App or platform, but even people, I don't know if you know XMPP federation, like back in the day-- >> Yeah you know about real messaging >> If you could think of us as the next version of XMPP federation, but using cryptocurrency in order to avoid bad actors by making it very expensive to do bad things, and very cheap to do good things and globally. >> So it's like Twitter you can create a bot instantly, but if there's coins involved, you'd have to spend to get it. >> That's right and also people could spin up nodes that are basically their own Twitters and decide if those Twitters of their own, their Nynja boxes of their own, are either just internally, or you could specify specifically context or group of context-- >> We agree, that's a great way to get bad actors out because it costs them money. And it's de-centralized, there's no single spot. >> That's right, if email came out today, when cryptocurrency existed, there would be no spam. Because it would be expensive as hell to send more than a few a second, but it would still be free and for everybody generally, and you wouldn't even have spam. So we think we can do that for messaging globally. >> Great. Marshall, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE, really appreciate it, check out Nynja. Marshall Taplits is the Chief Strategy Officer and co-founder of Nynja.biz, check them out online. Check out the website, it's in Asia, bringing that culture of mobile and fast moving, real time apps, to the rest of the developers. This is theCUBE coverage in Puerto Rico for BlockChain Unbound exclusive two days of coverage. We'll be right back with more, after this short break, thanks for watching.

>> Narrator: Live from San Juan, Puerto Rico. It's theCUBE, covering Blockchain Unbound. Brought to you by Blockchain Industries. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to our exclusive coverage of, in Puerto, Rico for Blockchain Unbound. This is the industry conference room. People around the world from Silicon Valley, New York, and around the glove, coming to Puerto, Rico to talk about Blockchain decentralized internet cryptocurrency and really the future of society and global economic value creation of course our continuing coverage is focusing La Sierra for 2018. Our next guest is Mark Jeffery, CEO and Co-Founder of a company called Guardian Circle. Welcome. >> Thank you, thanks for having me. >> So you guys are doing something really interesting, so we, first of all, we like to geek out, as Fred say, "We're alpha-geeks." But we love IoT, cloud computing. You're doing something really interesting right now with Blockchain and this new decentralized internet around something of a critical infrastructure nature. Take a minute to talk about Guardian Circle's product, the coin, token that you're doing, and what it all means. >> So, Guardium is the token, the company's called Guardian Circle. Together they comprise global decentralized emergency response. So, six billion people on earth have no 911, There's just no magic number you can call, right? So hold that in your mind for a second. The other one billion of us, we do have 911, but it's not very good, it hasn't been really updated since the 60's. If you call 911 and if you're lucky enough to not get a busy signal, they have no idea where you are. Your location information is not transmitted. Which Uber can find you more easily than 911. Which is just insane, but that is the way it is. So, nevermind, so throw all that out >> So 911 is broken? 911 is broken. >> Yep If you have it, it's broken, and most people don't have it, so throw the whole thing out the window, let's start over. What would we build today? The way the world should work is whenever you're in trouble, no matter where you are on the globe, all you should have to do is press a button, that button sends an alert up to the Cloud, the Cloud looks down and sees what people and resources are already nearby, and then activates, coordinates, pushes all that help to you as quickly as possible. So, ten people in three minutes. That's what were, that's our-- >> So a couple things going on. So to me when you say, what should we start from scratch, put in my little operating system design network solutions add on, all kind of rolled into one as a stable, fault-tolerant, resilient, robust, always on network. >> Yes. >> Database that is fully interoperable and updated in real time of every number, every location, every persons capability to understand the discovery and resolution of a number. >> Yeah, so >> So that sounds like the internet. That sounds like the internet. >> (laughs) Well that's a little bit, probably further than we're going right now, but yes. Ultimately, you're correct. That would be the ultimate-- >> So no legacy baggage, 1960's Telco. >> No >> We're talking about immobile, in Africa for instance, there's more mobile penetration than anything else. That's what they got. >> Yes. >> So every country is their own sovereign kind of architecture? >> Yes >> Are you guys looking at it from a global perspective or regional? >> Global, so we think that, I mean, this is, this thing should be mobile native, location aware, and the alert should go out to multiple parties. And the phone number is your identifier in this system, but it's effectively an IP based system, really, so you're right. We have to balance that against privacies, so you get to decide who is on your alert grid, right? So you have to emphatically say, yes my friends, family and neighbors, and the subscription services, and if available, these official services. >> So Blockchain can solve the immutability privacy issue? >> Yes. >> The decentralized nature of network effect is a dynamic that people look for in good deals or good architecture. That's in place. >> Yes. >> People have a social graph, interest graphs connections. So the analog world is going digital. I mean, the old days was, is there a doctor in the house? But you were limited by how far you could yell. >> Right. >> So here you're saying literally, if you connect properly, the users in charge are their, their data. >> Yeah. >> They can dictate what they want to connect to, where, is that kind of how it works, is it peer to peer? >> Yeah, it's sort of peer to peer. I mean, a lot of people think, a lot of people mishear me a little bit and think that when you press that button, the alert goes out to everybody that's nearby, right? So total strangers that may or may not be trustworthy are suddenly coming, that's not what I'm saying. That is not what we're doing because we don't want to accidentally summon Jack the Ripper, like that's, you don't want to make a bad situation worse, right? So, you explicitly invite people into your protection grid, we call them guardians, hence, Guardian Circle, that would be your guardian circle. And you can have an unlimited number of them, so six, 6000, however many friends you have. Then we will also feature paid subscription services where you will be able to subscribe to, like, your local EMT collective, or your local license and bonded arms security, or if you're in a remote corner of the world, you could subscribe to the guy with a truck, who could run you down the mountain, right? When you're having medical problems. So it's going to vary depending on where you are in the world. We're also working with the Women's Safety Xprize, we're a partner, we're the backend of that prize. Which is an IoT device contest to make a panic button device, right? So when you push the panic button, what happens? It goes into Guardian Circle. >> So how does token economics fit into this? So I'm getting why it's tokenizable, How does it work mechanically? Do I buy tokens for safety? Is it like, I mean, take us through some of the use cases. >> Yeah sure, so there's five different ways in which we use the token. The first one is, obviously, to create the, to buy emergency response subscriptions. Now we're going to allow you, or provide a way for you to, as a consumer, just swipe your credit card in the app, and in the background you'll be purchase Guardium tokens, right? And it'll re-up every month if you don't have enough in, it'll be that sort of thing. So you might not even really be conscious of the fact that you're using cryptocurrency. If you are, there's a wallet that'll allow you to just use the cryptocurrency manually, the way you do any, any right now, right? >> And. >> So there's that. >> Okay so continue. >> Yep, the second thing we're going to do, we think that giving will be a big behavior in our universe, so you're going to be able to send Guardium directly to a beneficiary in the developing world. And what's cool about that is it doesn't go through a governments, a bank, or an organization. So remember Red Cross in Haiti? Can't happen here, and we're going to go even further than that, down the road, you're going to be able to track every dollar that you donated as easily as a FedEx, right? >> So you are creating a direct relationship between people who might want to help people and then a direct access for resources for the user. >> Correct. >> And so that's the primary, kind of a two >> That's one major flywheel. >> major flywheels going on. >> Just like people sponsor a child, safety is one of the biggest problems in the world. In fact, some people say, this guy named, Greg Hahn, who says it's the number one problem in the world that all other problems flow from the fact that people in the developing world aren't safe. Why don't they have water? Cause they're not safe. Why don't they have education? Cause they're not safe. Lawlessness has to be solved first. >> Trust is a huge part of this too. >> Yeah. >> So how do I set this up, where are you guys in the system, is there a product up and running, how do people get involved with your project? Take a minute to share that. >> Sure, so we have apps released today and they're distributed world-wide on IOS, Android, and Alexa. We also have an open API that lets anyone plug any alert device into our grid, obviously we have to, we want to know who you are first, but basically everyone is welcome. And so, and then our token sales site is at Guardium, Guardium.co. >> G, Guard, ium, Guardium. >> Yes, Guardium. >> And then Guardian Circle? >> Correct. >> Guardium with the m and the end of the token. What's the plan, what are you guys, how much have you raised, what's the story? Yeah, so we're selling ten million dollars worth of tokens, which represents 30% overall, 33% overall. We have a 100 million tokens in the sys, that, that's it, that will ever be distributed. It's on the NEO Blockchain, so we are, we are, we're sort of different from a lot of other folks. We're one of the very first western, we're not the first but we're one of the firsts. >> NEO has a good reputation of high performance. >> Yes >> Is that one of the considerations you had for them? >> Yeah, without a doubt. I mean, we deal in emergencies, so our tolerance for things like CryptoKitty swamping the network is very low. So yeah, so we liked what NEO had to say in a lot of ways because of that. >> I interviewed the CryptoKitties at Polycon, interesting story. It's a Pokemon moment for the internet stare. Well congratulations Mark, what's next for you guys, get through the sale, how's the team makeup look, what's going on with the company? >> Yeah, get through, I mean, definitely get through the sale is the biggest thing right now. We're a small team of, like about five people, plus some contractors. The next big thing that we have on our agenda is we're going out to India in four weeks to actually test the Xprize IoT panic button devices on the streets of Mumbai, so Guardian Circle plus device. >> Intense environment a lot of people there. >> Yeah. >> So let's talk about you. What is your background that got you here, or was there an itch you were scratching? Why this time, also the way to attract a lot of alph entrepreneurs, this is a disruptive time, but why Mark Jeffrey's, why now, why Guradian Circle, what's the passion behind it? >> So, well I started life as an engineer, but I won't bore you with all my adventures up until this moment. But in 2013, I became very interested in Bitcoin, wrote a book called, Bitcoin Explained Simply. Got the book, got the little crazy thoughts in my head. >> You're an author, speaker >> Right, same thing. >> distinguished influencer. (laughs) >> So that was sort of how that side began. In 2014, I basically, my girlfriend at the time had a stroke, she's fine, but at the time she was all alone. And she was on the floor of her garage, and I took her to the hospital, brought her back, and afterwards, I realized, she was alone for about a half an hour, if this had been a real stroke, this could have been very serious, she could have died, she could have been paralyzed. And she was drowning in help, there were about seven people who were either driving by or nearby while this was going on, within a 1000 yards. And she had no way to get to them. >> Yeah, yeah, a personal example of what you're doing. >> And I also realized, the other component was, all the help, I didn't know six, five of the other six people, they're her friends, they're not mine. But during her emergency, all of us need to be sharing location and in communication with each other immediately. And the importance of that just cannot be overstated in emergencies, seconds count. And so putting instant communications so that we can coordinate a response is the second-half of the problem. I initially did not intend to build an app. I went looking for this app and what I discovered was there are a ton of panic button apps, but all of them neglected solving the second-half of the problem, which is organizing the response. >> Yeah. >> And getting people on, in the same-- >> Mobilizing resources. >> Yeah, getting everyone into a war room without requiring them to know each other ahead of time, that was the big thing, no one had thought of that, so. >> It's like rolling up services when you need it instantly. It's like a compiler. >> It's at hawk services. >> You know, compile everything >> Yes, exactly. >> at real time assembly. >> Real time assembly, yeah >> Operating system. (laughs) >> that's exactly, it's great. That's actually a really good way to put it, yeah. >> No, but this is also pretty important, so it was a great personal example, thanks for sharing that personal story. But you know, there's a avalanches, whether you're a skier, it's people who go rock climbing, there's all kinds of use cases where a mountain biker is missing, all kinds of-- >> Remote locations are really big ones. >> I'm scuba diving, where are people, where were they last? So a lot of this is, are location based, and no one knows what the situation is, so the alerting is only one step to the value chain. >> It is, but I think, sorry you have a question. >> No, no, I was going to ask you, where does it go from there? >> Well I think, I think there are a lot of, I think safety check-ins, I think there's other things that we can do, but the one thing that, the one lesson that I've seen again, and again, and again, and again is that the companies that fail invariably, oh, the companies that don't focus always fail. So you got to pick one thing and be the best in the world at that one thing. And the emergency situation is our one thing, and that's big enough. >> Well, I think you have a great opportunity and we'll splint through the, as the evolution of this market grows, it's kind of a moving train, but the value promises is legit. I was talking to Fred Krueger, your friend and colleague in the business, it's a marketplace of these days, so it's money and marketplaces, in your case it's safety, marketplace. I could envision a day with your services where I publish and subscribe to services, I got in a catalog. >> Yes. >> Hey, I know my risks, everyone knows what they do in vanity, or risk factors whether you're jumping out of an airplane, or double black diamond skier. I would love to go to Lake Tahoe, or a mountain, or a place like this, and saying, I'm going to take some chances, here's what I'm going to subscribe to. >> (laughs) You're going to have to subscribe to some extra tokens while you're there. >> I would use Guardium. It could be more, I'm just brainstorming, thinking out loud, but I mean, that's the kind of web services framework you could bring. >> That's exactly right. >> Is that they way you guys are thinking about it? >> I do, I do, I'm so focused on this sort of food and shelter stage of our life right now. >> Yeah, get an ICO done. So yeah, we've got tons of all those ideas written done but we're not quite there yet, but when we get there, great ideas, absolutely. >> Well the use cases are changing because the peoples expectations are changing and now technology can meet these cases. So I'm seeing a lot of social entrepreneurship being done that are coming in through a funding vehicles that never would have got funded on venture capital funding. >> Totally correct. >> Whether it's battered women applications, human trafficking, safety apps, stuff that can make money, not be a kazillion, billion dollar business, but really change society and makeup. >> You've hit the nail on the head. There are a lot of Blockchain companies or ICO companies, this stuff, the venture guys, would never fund it because their model doesn't allow for it. They have, all these things have to be Facebook potentially, or they just have no tolerance for it. >> And the philanthropy world is not incented on economics, and also when the project loses its grant or funding the stack just gets thrown away. >> So this allows for sustainability for mission-based investing and developing. Slowly, I see societal entrepreneurship categorically going to boom from this wave. >> Yeah, totally agree. >> Across the board. >> The world will become a better place, we'll have better companies. >> Mark Jeffery, Guardian Circle, co-founder and CEO. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage here on the ground in Puerto, Rico for Blockchain Unbound. A lot of great stuff here, a lot of great start-ups, investors, of course theCUBE. 2018 will be covering all the shows. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching.

>> Narrator: Live from Nassau in the Bahamas. It's The Cube! Covering PolyCon 18. Brought to you by PolyMath. >> Welcome back everyone, we're live here in the Bahamas with The Cube's exclusive coverage of PolyCon 18, I'm John Furrier with my co-host Dave Vellante, both co-founders of SiliconANGLE. We start our coverage of the crypto-currency ICO, blockchain, decentralized world internet that it is becoming. It's the beginning of our tour, 2018. Our next guest is Hartej Sawhney who's the advisor at Pink Sky Capital, but also the co-founder of Hosho.io. Welcome to The Cube. >> Thank you so much. >> Hey thanks for coming on. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks guys. >> We had a great chat last night, and you do some real good work. You're one of the smartest guys in the business. Got a great reputation. A lot of good stuff going on. So, take a minute to talk about who you are, what you're working on, what you're doing, and the projects you're involved in. >> So first of all, thank you so much for having me, it's really exciting to see the progress of high-quality content being created in the space. So my name is Hartej Sawhney. We have a team based in Las Vegas. I've been based in Las Vegas for about five years. But I was born and raised in central New Jersey, in Princeton. And my co-founder is Yo Sup Quan. We started this company about seven months ago and my co-founder's background was he's the co-founder of Coin Sighter in Exchange out of New York, which exited to Kraken. After that he started Launch Key which exited to Iovation. And prior to this company, my previous company was Zuldi, Z-U-L-D-I .com where we had a mobile point of sale system specifically for high volume food and beverage companies and businesses. So we were focused on Fintech and mobile point of sale and payment processing. So both of us have a unique background in both Fintech and cyber-security and my co-founder Yo, he's a managing partner of a crypto hedge fund named Pink Sky Capital. And he was doing diligence for Pink Sky, and he realized that the quality of the smart contracts he was seeing for deals that he wanted to participate as an investor in, and I'm an advisor in that hedge fund, we both realized that essentially the quality of these smart contracts is extremely low. And that there was nobody in this space that we saw laser focused on just blockchain security. And all the solutions that would be entailed in there. And so we began focusing on just auditing smart contracts, doing a line-by-line code review of each smart contract that's written, conducting a GAS analysis, and conducting a static analysis, making sure that the smart contract does what the white paper says, and then putting a seal of approval on that smart contract to mitigate risk. So that the code has not been changed once we've done an analysis of it, that there's no security vulnerabilities in this code, and that we can mitigate the risks for exchanges and for investors that someone has done a thorough code analysis of this. That there's no chance that this is going to be hacked, that money won't be stolen, money won't be lost, and that there's no chance of a security vulnerability on this. And we put our company's name and reputation on this. >> And what was the problem that is the alternative to that? Was there just poorly written code? Was it updated code? Was it gas was too expensive? They were doing off-chain transactions. I mean what are some of the dynamics that lead you guys down this path? I mean this makes sense. You're kind of underwriting the code, or you're ensuring it or I don't know what you call it, but essentially verifying it. What was the problem? And what were some of the use cases of problems? >> I would say that the underlying problem today in this whole industry, of the blockchain space, is that the most commonly found blockchain is Ethereum. The language behind Ethereum is called Solidity. Solidity is a brand new software language that very few people in the world are sufficient programmers in Solidity. On top of that, Solidity is updated, as a language on a weekly basis. So there are a very limited number of engineers in the world who are full-stack engineers, that have studied and understand Solidity, that have a security background, and have a QA mindset. Everything that I just said does exist on this Earth today and if it does, there's a chance that that person has made too much money to want to get out of bed. Because Ethereum's price has gone up. So the quality of smart contracts that we're seeing being written by even development shops, the developers building them are actually not full-stack engineers, they're web developers who have learned the language Solidity and so thus we believe that the quality of the code has been significantly low. We're finding lots of critical vulnerabilities. In fact, 100% of the time that Hosho has audited code for a smart contract, we have found at least a couple of vulnerabilities. Even as a second or the third auditor after other companies conduct an audit, we always find a vulnerability. >> And is it correct that Solidity is much more easy to work with than say, Bitcoin scripting language, so you can do a lot more with it, so you're getting a lot more, I don't want to say rogue code, but maybe that's what it is. Is that right? Is that the nature of the theory? >> Compared to Bitcoin script, yes. But compared to JavaScript, no. Because Fortune 500 companies have rooms full of Java engineers, Java developers. And now the newer blockchains are being written, are being written on in block JavaScript, right? So you have IBM's Hyperledger program, you have EOS, you have ICX, Cardano, Stellar, Waves, Neo, there's so many new projects that are coming, that all of them are flexing about the same thing. Including Rootstock, RSK. RSK is a project where they're allowing smart contracts to be tied to the Bitcoin blockchain for the first time ever. Right, so Fortune 500 companies may take advantage of the fact that they have Java developers to take advantage of already, that already work for them, who could easily write to a new blockchain, and possibly these new blockchains are more enterprise grade and able to take more institutional capital. But only time will tell. And us as the auditor, we want to see more code from these newer blockchains, and we want to see more developers actually put in commits. Because it's what matters the most, is where are the developers putting in commits and right now maximum developers are on the Ethereum blockchain. >> Is that, the numbers I mean. Just take a step there. So the theory of blockchain. Percentage of developers vis-a-vis other platforms percentages-- >> By far the most is on developed on Ethereum. >> And in terms of code, obviously the efficiencies that are not yet realized, 'cause there's not enough cycles of coding going on, it's evolution, right? >> Yes. >> Seems to be the problem, wouldn't you say? So a combination of full-stack developer requirements, >> Yes. >> To people who aren't proficient in all levels of the stack. >> Yes. >> Just are inefficient in the coding. It's not a ding on the developers, it's just they're writing code and they miss something, right? Or maybe they're not sufficient in the language-- >> It's a new language. The functions are being updated on a weekly basis, so sometimes you copied and pasted a part of another contract, that came from a very sophisticated project, so they'll say to us, well we copied and pasted this portion from EOS, so it should be great. But what that's leading to is either A, they're using a function that's now outdated, or B, by copying and pasting someone else's code from their smart contract, this smart contract is no longer doing what you intended it to do. >> So now Hartej, how much of your capability is human versus machine? >> Yeah I was going to ask that. >> ML, AI type stuff? >> So we're increasingly becoming automated, but because of the over, there's so much demand in the space. And we've had so much demand to consistently conduct audits, it's tough to pull my engineers away from conducting an audit to work on the tooling to automate the audit, right? And so we are building a lot of proprietary tooling to speed up the process, to automate conducting a GAS analysis, where we make sure you're not clogging up the blockchain by using too much GAS. Static analysis, we're trying to automate that as fast as possible. But what's a bit more difficult to automate, at least right now, is when we have a qualified full-stack engineer read the white paper or the source of truth and make sure the smart contract actually does it, that is, it's a bit longer tail where you're leveraging machine learning and AI to make that fully automated. (talking over each other) >> But maybe is that, I'm sorry John. Is that the long term model or do you think you can actually, I mean there's people that say augmented intelligence is going to be a combination of humans and machines, what do you think? >> I think it's going to be a combination for a long time. Every single day that we audit code, our process gets faster and faster and faster because once we find a vulnerability, finding that same vulnerability next time will be faster and easier and faster and easier. And so as time goes on, we see it as, since the bundle of our work today is ICOs, token generation events, there are ERC 20 tokens on the Ethereum blockchain. And we don't know how long this party will last. Like maybe in a couple years or a couple months, we have a big twist in the ICO space that the numbers will drastically go down. The long tail of Hosho's business for us, is to keep track of people writing smart contracts, period. But we think they are going to become more functional smart contracts where the entire business is on a smart contract and they've cut out sophisticated middle men. Right and it may be less ICOs, and in those cases I mean, if you're a publicly traded company, and you're going from R&D phase where you wrote a smart contract and now actually going to deploy it, I think the publicly traded company's going to do three to five audits. They're going to do multiple audits and take security as a very major concern. And in the space today, security is not being discussed nearly as much as it should. We have the best hedge funds cutting checks into companies, before the smart contract is even written, let alone audited. And so we're trying to partner with all the biggest hedge funds and tell the hedge funds to mandate that if you cut a check into a company that is going to do a token generation event, that they need to guarantee that they're going to at least value security, both in-house for the company and for the smart contract that's going to be written. >> How much do you charge for this? I mean just ballpark. Is it a range of purchase price, sales price? What's the average engagement go for, is it on a scope of work? Statement of work? Or is it license? I mean how does it work? >> So first it depends is it a penetration test of the website or the exchange? Penetration testing of exchanges are far more complex than just a website. Or if it's a smart contract audit, is it an ICO or is it a functional smart contract? In either case for the smart contract audit, we have to build a long set of custom tooling to attack each and every smart contract. So it's definitely very case-by-case. But a ballpark that we could maybe give is somewhere around the lines of 10 to 15 thousand dollars per 100 lines of functional code. And we ask for about three weeks of lead time for both a smart contract audit and a penetration test. And surprisingly in this space, some of the highest caliber companies and high caliber projects with the best teams, are coming to us far too late to get a security audit and a penetration test. So after months of fundraising and a private pre-sale and another pre-sale, and going and throwing parties and events and conferences to increase the excitement for participating in their token sale, what we think is the most important part, the security audit for a smart contract is left to the last week before your ICO. And a ridiculous number of companies are coming to us within seven days of the token sale, >> John: Scrambling. >> Scrambling, and we're saying but we've seen you at seven conferences, I think that we need to delay your ICO by two or three weeks. We can assure you that all of your investors will say thank you for valuing security, because this is irreversible. Once this goes live and the smart contract is deployed. >> Horse is out of the barn. >> It's irreversible. >> Right right. >> And once we seal the code, no one should touch it. >> It's always the case with security, it's bolted on at the last minute. >> It's like back road recovery too, oh we'll just back it up. It's an architectural decision we should have made that months ago. So question for you, the smart contract, because again I'm just getting my wires crossed, 'cause there's levels of smart contracts. So if we, hypothetical ICO or we're doing smart contracts for our audience that's going to come out soon. But see that's more transactional. There's security token sales, >> Yes. >> That are essentially, can be ERC 20 tokens, and that's not huge numbers. It could be big, but not massive. Not a lot transaction costs. That's a contract, right? That's a smart contract? >> People are writing smart contracts to conduct a token generational event, most commonly for an ERC 20 token, that's correct. >> Okay so that's the big, I call that the big enchilada. That's the big-- >> Right now that is the most important, the most common. >> Okay so as you go in the future, I can envision a day where in our community, people going to be doing smart contracts peer-to-peer. >> Sure. >> How does that work? Is that a boiler plate? Is is audited, then it's going to be audited every time? Do the smart contracts get smaller? I mean what's your vision on that? Because we are envisioning a day where people in our audience will say hey Hartej, let's do a white paper together, let's write it together, have a handshake, do a smart contract click, click. Lock it in. And charge a dollar a download, get a million downloads, we split it. >> I envision a day where you can have a more drag and drop smart contract and not need a technical developer to be a full-stack engineer to have to write your smart contract. Yes I totally envision that day. >> John: But that's not today. >> We are very far from that today. >> Dave, kill that project. >> We're so far, we're very far from that. We're light years far from that. >> Okay well look. If we can't eliminate the full-stack engineers, I'm okay with that. Can we eliminate the lawyers? At least minimize them. >> We can minimize them possibly, but we have five stacks of lawyers for our company, I don't see them going anywhere. We need lawyers all the time. >> I see that in the press sometimes, yeah it's going to get disrupted. I don't see it happening. Okay we were having a great conversation off-camera about what makes a good ICO. You see, you have a huge observation space. And you were very opinionated. A lot of companies are out there just floating a token because they're trying to raise money. And they could do the same thing with Ethereum or Bitcoin. >> That's correct. >> Your thoughts? >> My thoughts are that it's very important for companies who are sophisticated, I think, to start by giving away a little bit of equity in the business. And that if you want to be in the blockchain space, and you really firmly believe you have a model to have a token within a decentralized application, I would still start by finding quality investors in the space, in the world. They might be still in Silicon Valley. Silicon Valley didn't just disappear overnight now that the blockchain is out. I am all for the fact that Silicon Valley no longer has as much of a grip on tech because of their blockchain world. And they're not seeing as much deal flow, and there's not as much reliance on venture capitalists, that's exciting to me. But let's not forget the value, that top-tier VCs like Andreessen Horowitz and Vinod Khosla. and Fintech VCs like Commerce Ventures and Nyca Partners in New York, Propel VC, these are good Fintech VC arms that continue to time and time again add immense value to companies. >> And they have networks. They add value. >> They have strong-valued networks, but they're just not going to disappear. And those VCs, if they've invested into a company, took a board seat, fostered their growth, taught them what it means to actually be a real business that's growing at 7-15% week over week, maybe two years down the line, after they've given away a board seat to someone like Nyca Partners, I would be interested in understanding what your token economics look like. Now that you have a revenue generating business, how you've placed a token model into this already running business that makes 25 to 50 grand a month and you have a team of 10, self-sustaining themselves off of revenue. Much more intriguing of a conversation. What's happening today in the space is, hey my buddy Jim and Steve and I came up with an idea for this business. There's going to be a token, and we're starting a private pre-sale tomorrow. I'm going to give you 300% bonus and will you be my advisor? And they're going to start raising capital because of an idea. You know what we used to say in the Silicon Valley startup world, you can raise on just a PowerPoint. I think in the blockchain world, you could raise on just an idea? And then maybe a white paper? And the white paper is one page? And so you've raised a bunch of capital, you have a white paper. >> Now you got to build it. >> Now you got to build, you got to write a smart contract, you got to build it, you got to do it, and then everyone loses excitement and it goes back to our previous conversation the development talent. So, another thing not being discussed in the space is company employee retention, right? So if you have a growing number of ICOs, that have very large budgets because investors have found a way to sink millions of dollars into a company early, you've got $5 million in the hands of a company to start, well this company can afford to pay someone a very ridiculous salary to come join them to write the smart contract now. So they could offer an engineer 500 Eth a month to come join them for three months. So you have good engineers just bouncing from one ICO to the next and as soon as the ICO goes live, they quit. This is a problem to companies who are-- >> It's migration, out migration. >> How do you retain, even capital? >> Companies like Hosho, ShapeShift, companies that are selling picks and shovels of the industry, that want to be household names in the space, we have to really think about how we're going to retain our employees in the space. >> So the recruitment and bringing on the new generation, we were also talking off camera about Bill Tye and the younger generation and kind of riffing on the notion that, because there is a new set of mission-driven developers and builders, on the business side as well. Your thoughts and reaction to what you see and what you see that's good and what you see that we need more of? >> So the most powerful thing in the blockchain space that I think is so exciting is that you have a lot of people between the age of 25 and 35 that don't come from money, that didn't go to Stanford, didn't go to Y Combinator, they're probably not white, from-- >> John: Ivy League schools. >> Ivy League schools. I'm not trying to make it about race, but if you're a white male and went to Stanford and went to Y Combinator, chances of you raising VC money on sand hill are a lot higher, right? And you have a guy looking like me who didn't go to Stanford, doesn't come from money, running up and down sand hill, I have personally faced that battle and it wasn't easy. And we were based in Vegas and so being based in Vegas, I'd also have to deal with so why do you live in Vegas? When are you going to move to Silicon Valley? And if we invest in you, you're going to open an office in sand hill right? And now in the blockchain world, what's exciting is you have so many heavy-hitters running as founders, some of the most successful companies in the space, who don't come from money and a big prestigious background, but they're honest, they're hard-working, they're putting in 12 to 15 hours of work every single day, seven days a week. And to space, six weeks is like six years. And we all have a level of trust that goes back to times when we were all running struggling startups. And so our bond is, to me, even more significant than what must have been between Keith Rabois and Peter Thiel in the PayPal Mafia. We have our own mafias being formed of much stronger bonds of younger people who will be able to share much more significant deal flow so if the PayPal Mafia was able to join forces to punch out companies like eBay and Square, wait 'til companies in this space, we have young, heavy-hitters right now who are non-reliant on some of the more traditional older folks. Wait 'til you see what happens in the next couple years. >> Hartej, great conversation. And I want to get one more question in. We've seen Keiretsu Forum, mafias, teams more than ever as community becomes an integral part of vetting and by the way trust, you have unwritten rules. I mean baseball, Dave and I used to do sports analogies. >> Self-governance. >> Reggie Jackson talked about unwritten rules and it works. If you beam the batter, the other guy, your best star, your side's going to get beamed. That's an unwritten rule. These are what keeps things going, balanced through the course of a season. What are the unwritten rules in the Ethos right now? >> Honesty, transparency, and that's the key. We need self-governance. This is a very unregulated market. There's rules being broken by people who are ignorant to the rules. The most common rule I've seen being broken is by people who are not broker dealers, running around fundraising capital, they don't even know what an institutional advisor license is. They don't know what a Series 7 and a Series 63 is. I asked a guy just last night, he said I'm pooling capital, I'm syndicating, let me know if you want in on the deal. And I said when did you take your Series 7? He goes what's that? Get away from me. You're an American, you need to look up what US securities laws are and make sure that you're playing by the rules and if someone who doesn't know the rules has entered our inner circle of investors, of advisors, of people sharing deal flow, we have a good network of people that are closing the loop for companies, whether it's lawyers, investors, exchanges, security auditors, people who write smart contracts, dev shops, people who write white papers, PR marketing, people who do the road show, there's a full circle-- >> So people are actually doing work to put into the community, to know your neighbor if you will, know the deals that are going down, to identify potential trip wires that are being established by either bad actors or-- >> KYC, AML, this is a new space that's also attracting people that have a criminal background. Right? And that's just a harsh reality of the space. That in the United States if you have a felony on your record, maybe getting a job has become really difficult and you figured let's do an ICO, no one's going to check my record. That is a reality of the space. Another reality is the money that was invested into this entire ICO clean. Right, that's a massive issue for the US government right now. It's been less than 15 hours since the SEC has issued actually subpoenas to people on this exact topic, today. >> This is a great topic, we'd like to do more on. >> Dozens of them. >> We'd like to continue to keep in touch with you on The Cube. Obviously you're welcome anytime, loved your insight. Certainly we'd love to have you be an advisor on our mission, you're welcome anytime. >> For sure, let's talk about it. Come out to Las Vegas. Hosho's always happy to host you. >> John And Dave: We're there all the time. >> The Cube lives at the sands. >> It's our second home. >> Come by Hosho's office and let us know. Vegas is our home. We are hosting a conference in Vegas after DEFCON. So DEFCON is the biggest security conference in the world. You have the best black hats and white hats show up as security experts in Vegas and right on the tail end of it, Hosho's going to host a very exclusive invite-only conference. >> What's it called? Just Hosho Conference? >> Just Blockchain. It'll be called the just, it'll be by the Just Blockchain Group and Hosho's the main backer behind it. >> Well we appreciate your integrity and your sharing here on The Cube, and again you're paying it forward in the community, that's great. Ethos we love that. That's our mission here, paying it forward content. Here in the Bahamas. Live coverage here at PolyCon 18. We're talking about securitized token, a decentralized future for awesome things happening. I'm Jeff Furrier, Dave Vellante. We'll be back with more after this short break. (upbeat music)