>> At Vision '21, we've heard from business leaders, practitioners, developers, analysts, and the Postgres community. One thing's for sure, the next 10 years won't be like the last. And in my view, Vision '21 gave me greater confidence that the Postgres community will evolve as market forces shift. One certainty in that technology businesses that the tech will come and it will go. Open-source is the engine of software innovation and I'm excited to see how the community responds to the challenges ahead. Now, I want to encourage you to come back and check out the on-demand content that will be available immediately following the event. Dig in, share with colleagues, and engage with the community. It's really been our pleasure to cover Vision '21. And we look forward to seeing you at upcoming events, both physical and virtual. This is Dave Vellante for The Cube. Thanks for watching. Be well, and we'll see you next time.

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE, with digital coverage of Postgres Vision 2021, brought to you by EDB. >> Well, good day, everybody. John Walls here on theCUBE, and continuing our CUBE conversation as part of Postgres Vision 2021, sponsored by EDB, with EDB Chief Technology Officer, Mr. Mark Linster. Mark, good morning to you. How are you doing today? >> I'm doing very fine, very good, sir. >> Excellent. Excellent. Glad you could join us. And we appreciate the time, chance, to look at what's going on in this world of data, which, as you know, continues to evolve quite rapidly. So let's just take that 30,000-foot perspective here to begin with here, and let's talk about data, and management, and what Postgres is doing in terms of accelerating all these innovative techniques, and solutions, and services that we're seeing these days. >> Yeah, so I think it's really... It's a fantastic confluence of factors that we've seen in Postgres, or are seeing in Postgres today, where Postgres has really, really matured over the last couple of years, where things like high availability, parallel processing, use of very high core counts, et cetera, have come together with the drive towards digital transformation, the enormous amounts of data that businesses are dealing with today, so, and then the third factor's really the embracing of open source, right? I mean, Linux has shown the way, and has shown that this is really, really possible. And now we're seeing Postgres as, I think, the next big open source innovation, after Linux, achieving the same type of transformation. So it's really, it's a maturing, it's an acceptance, and the big drive towards dealing with a lot more data as part of digital transformation. >> You know, part of that acceptance that you talk about is about kind of accepting the fact that you have a legacy system that maybe, if you're not going to completely overhaul, you still have to integrate, right? You've got to compliment and start this kind of migration. So in your perspective, or from your perspective, what kind of progress is Postgres allowing in the mindset of CTOs among your client base, or whatever, that their legacy systems can function in this new environment, that all is not lost, and while there is some, perhaps, catching up to do, or some patching you have to do here and there, that it's not as arduous, or not as complex, as might appear to be on the face. >> Well, I think there's, the maturing of Postgres that has really really opened this up, right? Where we're seeing that Postgres can handle these workloads, right? And at the same time, there's a growing number of success cases where companies across all industries, financial services, insurance, manufacturing, retail are using Postgres. So, so you're no longer, you're no longer the first leader who's taken a higher risk, right? Like, five or 10 years ago, Postgres knowledge was not readily available. So if you want Postgres, it was really hard to find somebody who could support you, right? Or find an employee that you could hire who would be the Postgres expert. That's no longer the case. There's plenty of books about Postgres. There's lots of conferences about Postgres. It's a big meetup topic. So, getting know how and getting acceptance amongst your team to use Postgres has become a lot easier, right? At the same time, over 90% of all enterprises today use open source in one way or the other. Which basically means they have open source policies. They have ways to bring open source into the development stream. So that makes it possible, right? Whereas before it was really hard, you had to have an individual who would be evangelized to go, get open source, et cetera, now open source is something that almost everybody is using. You know, from government to financing services, open sources use all over the place, right? So, so now you have something that really matured, right? There's a lot of references out there and then you have the policies that make it possible, right? You have the success stories and now all the pieces have come together to deal with this onslaught of data, right? And then maybe the last thing that that really plays a big role is the cloud. Postgres runs everywhere, right? I mean, it runs from an Arduino to Amazon. Everywhere. And so, which basically means if you want to drive agile business transformation, you call Postgres because you don't have to decide today where it's going to run. You're not locking into a vendor. You're not locking into a limited support system. You can run this thing anywhere. It'll run on your laptop. It'll run on every cloud in the world. You can have it managed, you can have it hosted. You can add have every flavor you want and there's lots of good Postgres support companies out there. So all of these factors together is really what makes us so interesting, right? >> Kubernetes and this marriage, this complimentary, you know relationship right now with Kubernetes, what has that done? You think in terms of providing additional services or at least providing perhaps a new approach or new philosophies, new concepts in terms of database management? >> Well, it's maybe the most the most surprising thing or surprising from the outside. Probably not from the inside, but you think that that Postgres this now 25 year old, database twenty-five year old open source project would be kind of like completely, you know, incompatible with Kubernetes, with containers. But what really happens is Postgres in containers today is the number one database, after Engine X. It is the number two software that is being deployed in containers. So it's really become the workhorse of the whole microservices transformation, right? A 25 year old software, well, it has a very small footprint. It has a lot of interesting features like GIS, document processing, now graph capabilities, common table expressions all those things that are really like cool for developers. And that's probably what leads it to be the number one database in containers. So it's absolutely compatible with Kubernetes. And the whole transformation towards microservices is is like, you know, there's nothing better out there. It runs everywhere and has the most innovative technologies in it. And that's what we're seeing. Also, you go to the annual stack overflow survey of developers, right? It's been consistently number one or number two most loved and most used database, right? So, so what's amazing is that it's this relatively old technology that is, you know, beating everybody else in this digital transformation and then the adoption by developers. >> Just like old dog new tricks, right? It's still winning, right? >> Yeah, yeah, and, and, you know, the elephant is the symbol and this elephant does dance. >> Still dancing that's right. You know, and this is kind of a loaded question but there are a lot of databases out there, a lot of options, obviously from your perspective, you know, Postgres is winning, right? And, and, and from the size of the marketplace it is certainly leading RA leader. In your opinion, you know, what, what is this confluence of factors that have influenced this, this market position if you will, of Postgres or market acceptance of Postgres? >> It's, I mean, it's the, it's a maturing of the core. As I said before, that the transaction rates et cetera, Postgres can handle, are growing every year and are growing dramatic, right? So that's one thing. And then you have it, that Postgres is really, I think, the most reliable and relational database out there as what is my opinion, I'm biased, I guess. And, and it's, it's super quality code but then you add to that the innovation drive. I mean, it was the first one out there with good JSONB support, right? And now it's brought in JSON Path as as part of the new SQL standard. So now you can address JSON data inside your database and the same way you do it inside your browser. And that's pretty cool for developers. Then you combine that with PostGIS, right, which is, I think the most advanced GIS system out there in database. Now, now you got relations, asset compliant, GIS and document. You may say what's so cool about that. Well, what's cool about it is I can do absolutely reliable asset compliant transactions. I can have a fantastic personalization engine through JSONB, and then all my applications need to know where is the transaction? Where is the next store? How far away I'm a form of the parking spot? Right? So now I got a really really nice recipe to put the applications of the future together. You add onto that movements toward supporting graph and supporting other capabilities inside the database. So now you got, you got capability, you've got reliability and you got fantastic innovation. I mean, there's nothing better out there. >> Let's hit the security angle here, 'cause you talked about the asset test, and certainly, you know, those, that criteria is being met. No question about that, whether it's isolation, durability, consistency, whatever, but, but security, I don't have to tell you what a growing concern this is. It's already paramount, but we're seeing every day write stories about, about intrusions and and invasions, if you will. So in terms of providing that layer of security that everybody's looking for right now, you know, this this ultra impenetrable force, if you will, what in your mind, what's Postgres allowing for, in that respect in terms of security, peace of mind, and maybe a little additional comfort that everybody in your space is looking for these? >> So, so look at, look at security with a database like, like multiple layers, right? There's not just, you don't do security only one place. It's like when you go into a bank branch, right? I mean, they do lock the door, they have a camera, there is a gate in front of the safe, there's a safe door. And inside the safe, there is still, again safety deposit boxes with individual locks. The same applies to Postgres, right? Where let's say we start at the heart of it where we can secure and protect tables and data. We're using access control lists and groups and usernames, et cetera. Right? So that's, that's at the heart of it. But then outside of that, we can encrypt the data when on disk or when it's in transit on disk. Most people use the Linux disc encryption systems but there's also good partners out there, like like more metric or others that we work with, that that provide security on disk. And then you go out from there and then you have the securing of the database itself again through the log-ins and the groups. You go out from there and now you have the securing of the hosts that the database is sitting on. Then you'll look at securing the data on the networks through SSL and certificates, et cetera. So that basically there's a multi-layer security model layer that positions Postgres extremely well. And then maybe the last thing is to say it certainly integrates very well with ELDAP, active directory, Kerberos, all the usual suspects that you would use to secure technology inside the enterprise or in an open network, like where people work from home, et cetera. >> You talked about the history about this 25 year old technology, you know, founded back at Cal Berkeley, you know, probably almost some 30 years ago and certainly has evolved. And, and as you have pointed out now as a very mature technology, what do you see though in terms of growth from here? Like, where does it go from here in the next 18 months, 24 months, what what do you think is that next barrier, that challenge that that you think the technology and this open source community wants to take on? >> Well, I think there's there's the continuous effort of making it faster, right? That always happens, right? Every database wants to be faster do more transactions per second, et cetera. And there's a lot of work that has been done there. I mean, just in the last couple of years, Postgres performance has increased by over 50%. Right? So, so transactions per second and that kind of scalability that is going to continue to be, to be a focus, right? And then the other one is leading the implementation of the SQL standards, right? So there'd be the most advanced database, the most innovative database, because, remember for many years now, Postgres has come up with a new release on an annual basis. Other database vendors are now catching up to that, but Postgres has done that for years. So innovation has always been at the heart of it. So we started with JSONB, Key value pair came even before that, PostGis has been around for a long time, graph extensions are going to be the next thing, ingestion of time series data is going to, is going to happen. So there's going to be an ongoing stream of innovations happening. But one thing that I can say is because Postgres is a pure open source project. There's not a hard roadmap, like where it's going to go but where it's going to go is always driven by what people want to have, right? There is no product management department. There's no, there's no great visionary that says, "Oh, this is where we're going to go." No, no. What's going to happen is what people want to have, right? If companies or contributors want to have a certain feature because they need it, well, that's how it's going to happen. And that's really been at the heart of this since Mike Stonebraker, who's an advisor to EDB today, invented it. And then, you know, the open source project got created. This has always been the movement to only focus on things that people actually want to have because if nobody wants to have it, we're just not going to build it because nobody wants it. Right? So when you asked me for the roadmap I believe it's going to be, you know, faster, obviously, always faster, right? Everybody wants faster. And then there's going to be innovation features like making the document stored even better, graph ingestion of large time series, et cetera. That's really what I believe is going to drive it forward. >> Wow. Yeah, the market has spoken and as you point out the market will continue to speak and, and drive that bus. So Mark, thank you for the time today. We certainly appreciate that. And wish EDB continued success at Postgres vision 2021. And thanks for the time. >> Thanks John, it was a pleasure. >> You bet. Mark Linster, joining us, the CTO at EDB. I'm John Walls, you've been watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> From around the globe, it's the CUBE with digital coverage of Postgres Vision 2021. Brought to you by EDB. >> Hello everyone, this is Dave Vellante for the CUBE. We're covering Postgres Vision 2021, the Virtual CUBE edition. Welcome to our conversation with the CEO, Ed Boyajian, the CEO of Enterprise DB. And we're going to talk about what's happening in open source and database and the future of tech. Ed, Welcome. >> Hi Dave, good to be here. >> Hey, several years ago at Postgres Vision event you put forth the premise that the industry was approaching a threshold moment, and digital transformation was the linchpin of that shift. Now, Ed, while you were correct, and I have no doubt the audience agreed, most people went back to their offices after that event and they returned to their hyper-focus of their day-to-day jobs. Yeah, maybe a few accelerated their digital initiatives but generally, pre COVID, we moved at a pretty incremental pace and then the big bang hit. And if you weren't digital business, you were out of business. So, that single event created the most rapid change that we've ever seen in the tech industry by far, nothing really compares. So, the question is, why is Postgres specifically and EDB generally the right fit for this new world? >> Yeah, I think, look a couple of things are happening Dave. You know, right along the bigger picture of digital transformation, we are seeing the database market in transformation. And, and I think the things that are driving that shift are the things that are resulting the success of Postgres and the success of EDB. I think first and foremost, we're seeing a dramatic re-platforming. And just like we saw in the world of Linux where I was at, Red Hat during that shift where people were moving from Unix-based systems to X86 systems, we're seeing that similar re-platforming happening whether that's from traditional infrastructures to cloud-based infrastructures or container-based infrastructures, it's a great opportunity for databases to be changed out. Postgres wins in that context because it's so easily deployed anywhere. I think the second thing that's changing is we're seeing a broad expansion of developers across the enterprise. They don't just live in IT anymore. And I think as developers take on more power and control, they're just defining the agenda. And it's another place where Postgres shines. It's been a priority of EDB's to make Postgres easier and that's coming to life. And I think the last stack overflow developer survey suggested that, I think they survey 65,000 developers, the second most loved and the second most used database by developers is Postgres. And so I think there again, Postgres shines in a moment of change. And then I think the third is kind of obvious. It's always an elephant in the room, no pun intended, but it's this relentless nagging burden of the expenses of the incumbent proprietary databases and the need. And we especially saw this in COVID. To start to change that, more dramatically change that economic equation, here again, Postgres shines. >> You know, I want to ask you, I'm going to jump ahead to the future for a second, because you're talking about the re-platforming and with your Red Hat shops I kind of want to pick your brain on this because you're right. You saw that with Red Hat and you're kind of seeing it again when you think about open shift and where it's going, my question is related to re-platforming around new types of workloads, new processing models at the edge, I mean, you've seen an explosion of processing power GPU's, NPUs, accelerators, DSPs and it appears that there this is happening at a very low cost. I'm inferring that you're saying Postgres can take advantage of that trend as well, that that broader re-platforming trend to the edge, is that correct? >> It is. And, and I think, you know this is the this has been one of the I think the most interesting things with Postgres. Now I've been here almost 13 years. So if you put that in some perspective, I've watched and participated in leading transformation in the category. You know, we've been squarely focused on Postgres so we've got 300 engineers who worry about making Postgres better. And as you look across that landscape a time, not only as Postgres gotten more performance and more scalable, it's also proven to be the right database choice in the world of not just legacy migrations but new application development. And I think that stack overflow developer survey is a good indicator of how developers feel about Postgres, but, you know over that timeframe, I think if you went back to 2008 when I joined EDB, Postgres was was considered a really good general purpose database. And today I think Postgres is a great general purpose database. General purpose isn't sexy in the market, broadly speaking but Postgres capabilities across workloads in every area is really robust. And let me just spend a second on it. We look at our customer base as deploying and what we think of as systems of record, which are the traditional ERP type apps, you know where there's a single source of truth. You might think of ERP apps there. We look at our customers deploying and systems of engagement, and those are apps that you might think of in the context of social media style apps or websites that are backed by a database. And the third area is systems of analytics where you would typically think of data warehouse style applications, interestingly, Postgres performs well. And our customers report using us across that whole landscape of application areas. And I think that is one of Postgres' hidden superpowers, is that ability to reach into each area of requirement on the workload side. >> Yeah. And as I was alluding to before. That, that itself is evolving as you now inject AI into the equation AI inferencing. And it's just a very exciting times ahead. There's no, there's no database, you know 20 years ago it was kind of boring. Now it's just exploding. I want to come back to that, the notion of of Postgres that maybe talk about other database models. I mean, you've mentioned that you've evolved from this, you know, system of record. You can take a system engagement on structured data, et cetera, Jason it's-. So how should we think about Postgres in relation to other databases and specifically other business models of companies that provide database services? Why is Postgres attractive? Where is it winning? >> Yeah, I think a couple of places. So, I mean, for first and foremost, Postgres, you know at its core, Postgres is a SQL relational database a trend in asset compliance, equal relational database. And that is inherently a strength of Postgres but it's also a multi-model database. Which means we handle a lot of other, you know database requirements, whether that's geospatial or, or JSON for documents or, or time series, things like that. And, so Postgres extensibility is one of its inherent strengths. And that's kind of been built in from the beginning of Postgres. So not surprisingly people use Postgres across a number of workloads because at the end of the day, there's still value in having a database that's able to do more. There are a lot of important specialty databases and I think they will remain important specialty databases, but Postgres thrives in its ability to crossover in that way. And I think that is, you know one of the different key differentiators in in how we've seen the market and the business develop. And, and that's the breadth of of workloads that Postgres succeeds in. But, but our growth if you kind of ventured it across vectors we see growth happening, you know, in a few dimensions. First, we see growth happening in new applications. About half of our customers have come to us today for new, new Postgres users are deploying us on new applications. The others are our second area migrating away from some existing legacy incumbent. Often Oracle, not always. The third area of growth we see is in cloud where we're Postgres is deployed very prolifically both in the traditional cloud platforms like EC2, but then again also in the database as a service environment and then the fourth area growth we're seeing now is around container deployment, Kubernetes deployment. >> Well, you mean Oracle's prominent because it's just, it's, it's, it's a big install base and it's expensive and people, you know they got to look at that. I mean, It's funny. I do a lot of TCO work and mostly, you know usually TCO is about labor costs when it comes to Oracle it's about license costs and maintenance costs. And so to the extent that you can reduce that at least for a portion of your state, you're going to, you're going to drop right to the bottom line. But, but, I want to ask you about the kind of that spectrum that you think about the prevailing models for database you've got on the one hand, you've got the right tool for the right job approach. You know, it might be 10 or 12 data stores in the cloud. On the other hand, you've got kind of a converged approach. You know, Oracle is going that direction, clearly Postgres, with its open source innovation, is going that direction. And it seems to me yet that at scale that's a more, the latter is the more cost-effective model. How do you think about that? >> Well, you know, I think at the end of the day you kind of have to look at it. I mean, the, the business side of my brain looks at that as an addressable market question, right? And you heard me talk about three broad categories of workloads and, you know, people define workloads in different buckets, but that's how we do it. But if you look at just a system of record in the system of engagement market I think that's what would be traditionally viewed as the database market. And there that's, you know, let's just say for the sake of arguments, a 45 to $50 billion market. The third, the systems of analysis that market's an $18 billion market. And, and, you know, as we talk about that so all in it's still between 60 and $70 billion market. And I think what happens, there's so much heat and light poured on the valuation multiples of some of the specialty players that the market gets confused. But the reality is our customers don't get confused. I mean, if you look at those specialty players take that $48 billion market. I mean, add up Mongo, Reds, Cockroach, Neo, all of those. I mean, hugely valued companies all unicorn companies, but combined they add up to a billion bucks. Don't get me wrong, that's important revenue and meaningful in the workloads they support, but it's not, it doesn't define the full transformation of this category. Look at the systems of analysis again, another great, great market example. I mean, if you add up the consolidation of the Hadoop vendors, add in there, snowflake you're still talking to, you know $1.5 billion in revenue in an $18 billion market. So while those are all important technologies the question is in this transformation move did the database market fully transformed yet. And my view is, no, it didn't, we're in the first maybe second inning of a $65 billion transformation. And I think this is where Postgres will ultimately shine. I think this is how Postgres wins, because at the end of the day, the, the nature of the workloads fits with Postgres and the future tech that we're building in Postgres will serve that broader set of needs. I think more effectively. >> Well, and I love these tam expansion discussions because I think you're right on. And I think it comes back to the data and we all we all talk about the data growth, the data exposure and we see the IDC numbers. Well, you ain't seen nothing yet. And so at data by its very nature is distributed. That's why I get so excited about these new platform models. And I want to tie it back to developers and open source because to me, that is the linchpin of innovation in the next decade. It has been, I would even say for the last decade we've seen it, but it's gaining momentum. So, so in thinking about innovation and specifically Postgres in open source, you know, what can you share with us in terms of how we should think about your advantage and again where people are glomming, leaning in to that advantage? >> Yeah. So, I mean, I think, I think you bring up a really important topic for us as a company, Postgres, we think is an incredibly powerful community and, and when you step away from it, again, I, now you remember, I told you, I'd been at, I was at Red Hat before now here at EDB. And there's a common thread that runs through those two experiences. In, in both experiences the companies are attached and prominent alongside a strong, independent open-source community. And I think the notion of an independent community is really important to understand around Postgres. There are hundreds and thousands of people contributing to Postgres. Now EDB plays a big role in that about, you know approaching a third of the contributions in the last release, released 13 of Postgres came from EDB. Now you might look at that and say, gee, that sounds like a lot, but if you step away from it, you know at about 30% of those contributions, most of the contributions come from a universe around EDB and that's inherently healthy for the community's ability to innovate and accelerate. And I think that while we play a strong role there you can imagine that having, and there are other great companies that are contributing to Postgres. I think having those companies participating and contributing gets the best the best ideas to the front in innovation. So I think the inherent nature Postgres community makes it strong and healthy. I mean, and then contrast that to some of the other prominent high value open-source companies. Companies and the communities are intimately intertwined. They're one in the same. They're actually not independent open source communities. And I think that they're therein lies one of, one of the inherent weaknesses in those. But, Postgres thrives because, you know we bring all those ideas from EDB. We bring a commercial contingent with us and all the things we hope, we emphasize and focus on, in growth and Postgres. Whether that's in the areas of scalability, manageability, all hot topics, of course security, all of those areas. And then, you know, performance as always. All of those areas are informed to us by enterprise customers deploying Postgres at scale. And I think that's the heart of what makes a successful independent project. >> Common editorial powers of, of that ecosystem. They, they they're they're multiplicative as opposed to the, the resources of one. I want to talk about Postgres Vision 2021 sort of set up that a little bit. The theme this year is 'The Future is You'. What do you mean by that? >> So, if you think about what we just said, posts, the category is in Tran-, the database categories in transformation. And we know that many of our people are interested in Postgres are early in their journey. They're early in their experience. And so we want to focus this year's Postgres Vision on them. That we understand, as a company who's been committed to Postgres, as long as we have. And with the understanding we have of the technology and best practices, we want to share that view, those insights with, with those who are coming to Postgres. Some for the first time, some who are experienced. >> Postgres Vision 21 is June 22nd and 23rd go to enterprisedb.com and register. The CUBE's going to be there. We hope you will be too. Ed, thanks for coming to the CUBE and previewing the event. >> Thanks, Dave. >> And thank you. We'll see you at Vision 21. (upbeat music)

>>From around the globe, it's the Cube with digital coverage of postgres Vision 2021 brought to you by >>enterprise DB. Hello everyone. This is Dave Volonte for the cube we're covering Postgres Vision 2021. The virtual cube edition. Welcome to our conversation with the Ceo Ed Boyajian is here is the Ceo of enterprise DB and we're gonna talk about what's happening in open source and database in the future of tech. Ed welcome. >>Hi Dave, Good to be here. >>Hey, several years ago, at a, at a Postgres Vision event, you put forth the premise that the industry was approaching a threshold moment, a digital transformation was the linchpin of that shift now. Ed Well you were correct and I have no doubt the audience agreed. Most people went back to their offices after that event and they returned to their hyper focus of their day to day jobs. Maybe a few accelerated their digital initiatives, but generally pre Covid, we moved in a pretty incremental pace and then the big bang hit. And if you were digital business, you are out of business. So that single event created the most rapid change that we've ever seen in the tech industry by far, nothing really compares. So the question is why is Postgres specifically and e d B generally the right fit for this new world? >>Yeah, I think, look, a couple of things are happening gave right along the bigger picture of digital transformation. We are seeing the database market in transformation and and I think the things that are driving that shift are the things that are resulting the success of Postgres and the success of B D B I think first and foremost we're seeing a dramatic re platform ng. And just like we saw in the world of Lennox where I was at red hat during that shift where people are moving from UNIX based systems to x 86 systems. We're seeing that similar re platform in happening. Whether that's from traditional infrastructures to cloud based infrastructures or container based infrastructures, it's a great opportunity for databases to be changed out. Postgres wins in that context because it's so easily deployed anywhere. I think the second thing that's changing is we're seeing a broad expansion of developers across the enterprise so they don't just live in I. T. Anymore. And I think as developers take on more power and control their defining the agenda and it's another place where Postgres shines, it's been a priority of the dBS to make postgres easier. Uh and that's coming to life. And I think the last Stack Overflow Developer Survey suggested that I think they survey 65 developers, the second most loved and the second most used database by developers, Postgres. And so I think there again Postgres shines in a moment of change. Uh and then I think the third is kind of obvious. It's always an elephant in the room, no pun intended. But it's this relentless nagging burden of the expenses of the incumbent proprietary databases and the need. And we especially saw this in Covid to start to change that more dramatically, change that economic equation here Again. PostGres shines. >>You know, I want to ask you, I'm gonna jump ahead to the future for a second because you're talking about the re platform NG and with your red hat chops, I kind of want to pick your brain on this because you're right, you saw it with red hat and you're kind of seeing it again when you think about open shift and where it's going my my question is related to replant forming around new types of workloads, new processing models at the edge. I mean you're seeing an explosion of processing power, GPU SNP us accelerators, dSPs and it appears that this is happening at a very low cost. I'm referring that you're saying Postgres can take advantage of that trend as well that that broader re platform ng trend to the edge, is that correct? >>It is. And I think you know this is, this has been one of the, I think the most interesting things with posters now I've been here almost 13 years. So if you put that in some perspective, I've watched Uh and participated in leading transformation in the category, you know, we've been squarely focused on postgres. So we've got 300 engineers who worry about making postgres better. And as you look across that landscape of time, not only as Postgres gotten more performant and more scalable, it's also proven to be the right database choice in the world of not just legacy migrations, but new application development. And I think that stack overflow developer survey is a good indicator of how developers feel about postgres. But you know, over that time frame I think if you went back to 2008 when I joined E D. B, post chris was considered a really good general purpose database. And today I think post chris is a great general purpose database. General purpose isn't sexy in the market broadly speaking, but Postgres capabilities across workloads in every area is really robust. Let me just spend a second on it. We look at our customer base is deploying in what we think of as systems of record, which are the traditional er, P type apps, uh you know where there's a single source of truth you might think of the RP apps there. We look at our customers deploying in systems of engagement. And those are apps that you might think of in the context of social media style apps or websites that are backed by a database in the third area Systems of analytics where you would typically think of data warehouse style applications interestingly. Postgres performs well and our customers report using us across that whole landscape of application areas. And I think that is one of postgres hidden superpowers. Is that ability to reach into each area of requirement on the workload side. >>And as always alluding to before that that itself is evolving as you now inject ai into the equation ai influencing and it's just a very exciting times ahead. There's no there's no database, You know, 20 years ago it was kind of boring. Now it's just exploding. I want to come back to that the notion of of post grass and maybe talk about other database models. Uh, I mean you mentioned that you've evolved from this, you know, system of record. You can take a system engagement on structured data etcetera. Jason. It's so how should we think about post grass in relation to other databases and specifically other business models of companies that provide database services? Why is Postgres attractive? Where is it winning? >>Yeah, I think a couple of places. So I mean first and foremost Postgres, you know, at his core, post chris is a sequel, relational databases in acid compliance, equal relational database. And that is inherently a strength of Postgres. But it's also a multi model database, which means we handle a lot of other, um, you know, database requirements, whether that's geospatial or or Jason, uh, for documents or time series, things like that. And so Postgres extensive bility is one of its inherent strengths and that's kind of been built in from the beginning of Postgres. So not surprisingly, people use postgres across the number of workloads because at the end of the day there's still value in having a database is able to do more. There are a lot of important specialty databases and I think they will remain important specialty databases, but Postgres thrives in its ability to cross cross over in that way. Um and I think that is, you know, one of the different key differentiators in how we've seen the market in the business development and that's the breadth of of workloads that Postgres succeeds in. But but our growth, if you kind of ventured it across vectors, we see growth happening, you know, in a few dimensions. First we see growth happening in new applications. About half of our customers that come to us today for new uh new postgres users are deploying us on new applications. The others are our second area migrating away from some existing legacy in companies often oracle. Not always. Um The third area of growth we see is in cloud, where Postgres is deployed very prolifically, both in the traditional cloud platforms, Uh like EC two, but then then again also uh in the database as a service environment. And then the fourth area growth we're seeing now is around uh container deployment, kubernetes deployment. >>Well, you may Oracle's prominent because it's just it's a big installed base and it's expensive and people, >>you >>know, they got a look at them. It's funny, I do a lot of TCO work and mostly, you know, usually TCO is about labor costs. When it comes to Oracle, it's about license costs and maintenance costs. And so to the extent that you can reduce that, at least for a portion of your state, you're gonna you're gonna drop right to the bottom line. But but but but I want to ask you about that kind of that spectrum that you think about the prevailing models for database you've got. On the one hand, You've got the right tool for the right job approach. It might be 10 or 12 data stores in the cloud. On the other hand, you've got, you know, kind of a converged approach. Oracle's going that direction clearly. Postgres with its open source innovation is going that direction. And it seems to me that at scale that's a more the latter is a more cost effective model. How do you think about that? >>Well, you know, I think at the end of the day, you kind of have to look at it. I mean, the business side of my brain looks at that as an addressable market question. Right? And you've heard me talk about three broad categories of workloads and you know, people define workloads in different bucket, but that's how we do it. But if you look at just a system of record in the system of engagement market, I think that's what would be traditionally viewed as the database market. Uh and there that's you know, let's just say for the sake of arguments of $45-$50 billion $18 billion dollar market. And you know, as we talk about that. So all in it's still between 60 and $70 billion market. And I think what happens there's so much heat and light poured on the valuation multiples of some of the specialty players. That the market gets confused, but the reality is our customers don't get confused. I mean if you look at those specialty players take that $48 billion market. I mean add up Mongo red is cockroach neo, all of those. I mean hugely valued companies. All unicorn companies. But combined to add up to a billion bucks don't get me wrong that's important revenue and meaningful in the workloads they support. But it's not. It doesn't define the full transformation of this category. Look at the systems of analysis again, another great great market example. I mean if you add up the consolidation of the Hadoop vendors add in there. Um Snowflake, you're still talking you know a billion five in revenue and an $18 billion market. So while those are all important technologies, the question is in this transformation move to the database market fully transform you. And my view is no it didn't were in the first maybe second inning of a $65 billion transformation. And I think this is where Postgres will ultimately shine. I think this is how Postgres wins because at the end of the day the nature of the workloads fits with postgres and the future tech that we're building in post schools will serve that broader set of needs I think more effectively >>well. And I love these tam expansion discussions because I think you're right on and I think it comes back to the data and we all talk about the data growth, the data explosion, we see the I. D. C. Numbers and you ain't seen nothing yet. And so data by its very nature is distributed. That's why I get so excited about these new platform models and and I want to tie it back to developers and open source because to me that is the linchpin of innovation um in the next decade it has been, I would even say for the last decade we've seen it, but it's gaining momentum, so, so in thinking about innovation and and specifically Postgres and an open source, you know, what can you share with us in terms of how we should think about your advantage, and again, what, where people are glomming leaning in to that advantage? >>Yeah, so, I mean, I think I think you bring up a really important topic for us as a company. Postgres we think is an incredibly powerful community, uh and when you step away from it again, I remember I told you I was at red hat before, now here at E D B, and there's a common thread that runs through those two experiences in both experiences. The companies are attached and prominent alongside a strong independent, open source community, and I think the notion of an independent community is really important to understand around postgres. There are hundreds and thousands of people contributing to Postgres now. E D B plays a big role in that. About approaching a third of the contributions. In the last release released, 13 of Postgres came from E D B. You might look at that and say gee, that sounds like a lot, but if you step away from it, you know, about 30% of those contributions, Most of the contributions come from a universe around D D. B. And that's inherently healthy for the community's ability to innovate and accelerate. And I think that while we play a strong role there, you can imagine that having and there are other great companies that are contributing to Postgres, I think having those companies participating and contributing gets the best, the best ideas to the front in innovation. So I think the inherent nature Postgres community makes it strong and healthy. And then contrast that to some of the other prominent high value open source companies, the companies and the communities are intimately intertwined. They're one and the same. They're actually not independent open source communities. And I think that therein lies one of the, one of the inherent weaknesses in those but postgres to rise because you know, we bring all those ideas from the DB, we bring a commercial contingent with us all the things we hope we emphasize and focus on in growth and postgres, whether that's in the areas of scalability, manageability, all hot topics, of course security, all of those areas. And then, you know, performance as always, all of those areas are informed to us by enterprise customers deploying post chris at scale. And I think that's the heart of what makes a successful independent project. >>Yeah. The combinatorial powers of of that ecosystem. Uh they their their multiplication, I've as opposed to the resources of one. I want to talk about postgres Vision 2021 sort of set up that a little bit. The theme this year is the future. Is you, what do you mean by that? >>So if you think about what we just said post the category is in transit database categories and transformation. And we know that many of our people are interested in. Postgres are early in their journey, their early in their experience. And so we want to focus this year's postcards vision on them that we understand as a company has been committed to postgres as long as we have and with the understanding we have the technology and best practices, we want to share that view those insights uh, with those who are coming to postgres, Some for the first time, some who are experienced >>Postgres. Vision 21 is june 22nd and 23rd. Go to enterprise db dot com and register the cube is going to be there. We hope you will be too. Ed, thanks for coming to the Cuban previewing the event. >>Thanks Dave. >>Thank you. We'll see you at Vision 21 >>mm mm.

>> From Bahrain, it's the Cube. Covering AWS Public Sector Bahrain. Brought to you by, Amazon Web Services. >> Welcome back to the Cube coverage here in Bahrain, the Middle East, with AWS Summit celebrating the opening of their new region and all the economic development going on around it. A lot of change, cloud computing changing the landscape for startups, businesses, and the government for Cloud First. Mohamed Khalifa, senior manager, Economic Development Board for ICT. Welcome to the Cube, good to see you. >> John, it's a pleasure to see you again, and be here on the Cube with you all. >> You know, we're excited, second year the Cube's been here. What a stark contrast. Now, it's not just talk of the Amazon region being open, it's operational, startup scene is more dynamic, you guys are a big anchor in all of this. >> Absolutely. >> Give us the update. >> So, in the last year, the startup scene in Bahrain has grown by about 100% of where it previously was. Part of that's driven by the fact that Amazon is here, and the region is changing as a whole. You have Microsoft and Google and other companies all realizing the potential in this region. That's driven by the fact that there's a 40% year on year growth in cloud businesses, and uptake of those businesses as well. So, the talent pool as a result, is increasing in scope, and people are popping out of these companies and government ministries, and are energized to now start their own businesses. Aside to that, what you've started to see in Bahrain and the region as a whole, is a firm interest in governments in introducing regulations that are meaningful to these companies. Now, the way the governments work in these regions, especially in a country as small as Bahrain, is that we're able to legislate very fast on shore, and we're able to do that with a very close ear to the ground on what businesses need, and what they're requesting. So, it almost functions as a corporation and a enterprise that wants to do best for its subsidiary corporations. >> And you guys want to take care of the citizens as well, you guys listen to the societal impacts, the demographics a lot of young people. >> Absolutely. >> So the news around a cloud computing degree, bachelors degree, four years, or one years, that's going to help. >> Yeah. >> The entrepreneurial equation, you guys have been really the stewards of that. >> Mhmm. >> How is that going, is there any plans to have entrepreneurship being more formally taught in the universities, how do you guys think about the entrepreneurship equation? >> So, there are definitely thousands of people right now going through cloud training courses, because we see that as being the future. We ourselves, as a government, offer to make all of that training free. So, insofar as a person wants to attain a certification or a company wants to train one of their employees, that whole process is 100% free, granted by the governments of Bahrain. The reason why we do that, is because the human capital in the country, is seen as our single greatest asset, more so than anything else. We're not a heavy oil economy, oil is 17 and a half percent of GDP, financial services is similar level, tourism is a similar level, manufacturing is a similar level. So for us, if it's not oil, it's people. And people are what will generate everything in those subsectors that's relevant. So for us, the training programs that we're instituting with the universities, or the vocational training providers, et cetera, are all key to this. >> The insourcing strategy is something you're seeing that technology's enabling. I mean, we're seeing with corporations, they're building their own stacks. >> Yeah. >> They're building developers in house, you guys as a country saying, "hey, you know what, "we're not going to outsource to others, "we're going to build our sovereignty with the people." >> Yeah. >> This is about talent. >> Yeah. >> Now the younger generation, they want to move fast. (laughing) >> Yeah. >> They don't want anything passed down from the old guard, older folks like my age. >> Absolutely. >> They want speed, they want freedom to develop, and build something. This is kind of a cultural shift. >> Absolutely. >> What's your take on that? What's the sentiment around that culture, the younger generation, in terms of app developing technology and all them. >> Yeah, I mean, I think it's a bit split. You have a government that's very interested in insourcing. A lot of the private sector still does a lot of outsourcing. So, there's a happy middle between them. We try to make the visa policy quite straightforward for they guys that want to bring talent from abroad, where they can't fill that talent up locally. And there is a place for companies like Systems Integrators, et cetera, to fill those gaps up. But at the same time, insourcing remains key. As I mentioned, government is fully developing their own capability, and is primarily doing that by pulling students out of universities, and through those programs, and advising universities on what those programs should look like, to make sure that there's a match, and a synergy, between where we see the future of technology and the future of the services we're building with, you know, what the youth are learning. And the reason I talk about government, and it's typically not nice to talk about government as a fast mover, but in this part of the world, government tends to move faster than business when it comes down to innovation. >> Yeah. >> It's just, it's a weird flip that's happened between what you see in parts of the west, and what you see in this part of the world. So, what the changes that we make on the government side. >> Mhmm. >> End up being flags that indicate to the private sector some of the changes they're going to start seeing. >> So, that's the regulate fast piece. >> Yeah. >> So moving fast, set the pace for business, but not meddle in the startups world. >> Absolutely. >> We had a good chat with the central bank. >> Yeah. >> Same thing, they did some quick things, they got a sandbox, they do quick certifications. So I got to ask you the next question, startups. Nurturing them, attracting them, getting people excited by them, any new plans? You guys have any new programs? >> Yeah. So, right now, we've made the cloud crediting for businesses that are setting up in Bahrain, up to a certain cap, 100% free for them to use cloud credits on any cloud hosting provider basing operations in Bahrain. So, the reason we do that, is because we think, we already have a series of incentives, that already pay up to 50% of their capex and opex, we just increased the cloud side because it actually made more financial sense for us as a government. >> Yeah. >> And it drove innovation across these sectors and these industries. Aside from that, and aside from the capacity building, we've changed a series of laws, that resolve a couple of things. One is, the safety of investors in these companies, and the safety of their founders. Which include things like, including chapter 11 protection under the law, introducing laws against anti-competitive behavior at the governments level, and a few other sectors. But the more interesting thing for me, aside from those, I mean, that's obvious, right? >> Yeah. >> You want to help people fail, and you want to help remove friction from the investment environment, and you want people to build up capacity in training. But aside from that, the more interesting things that we're doing around open banking, APIs, so we're the first country in the region that has now set up a process for opening up all our banks APIs. That basically means at an infrastructure level, financial services companies can now build on top of banks, and create value added services. It's the same thing with the government, where the governments has now started building API bridges, using Amazon, and I'll give you one example of the first value added product that's come out of that. We've just released a product called EKYC, electronic KYC, entirely built out on the block chain, it's the first of its kind, globally. And in real terms, what that does, is it lowers the lifetime costs of doing electronic KYC from about $8,000 to a per-transaction cost of about $2 per transaction. So, it's a real meaningful difference for these companies, and the reason why you could deploy something like that so quickly and so effectively is because of the fact that the governments building on APIs and opening up some of that infrastructure, and the central bank is asking banks to do so as well. >> API standards, money, software innovation, kind of interesting fintech innovation strategy. >> Yeah. >> Kind of a data control plane, but the banks are protected, 'cause they're just exposing APIs. >> Yeah. >> Entrepreneurs can innovate right custom applications. >> Absolutely. >> Is that the thinking? >> Absolutely, so that combined with the fintech sandbox, which I think the central MAT bank must have talked you about. >> Yeah, it's phenomenal. >> Allows us to kind of regulate the licensing of the fintech products. So, it's safe for consumers, and it's safe for banks as well. Along side the fact that we're opening up the technical layer of the banks into these companies. >> You know, I think they got that right, I think you guys have a great collaboration equation, balancing regulatory and innovation. And the startups are going to take advantage of that. When the region's up and running, which it is, and starts humming along, you're going to start to see a flywheel of startups. >> Absolutely. >> The question that is on my mind, that I'd love to get your thoughts on is, the ecosystem support, because you said trust, and you guys have telegraphed and postured very trustfully as a country. >> Yeah. >> To entrepreneurs, that's clear. Can that ecosystem get localized? The service providers, the law firms, the angel investors, you know, the stakeholders that are always around. 'Cause people got to fall and they got to fail. >> Yeah. >> But they got to get back up again. They need that system of nurturing. >> Yeah. >> What's your take on all-- >> We spent a lot of time, my role as an economic developing board, is very much focused around keeping our ears close to the ground with respect to companies. And we listen to what both younger companies and smaller companies and large companies need. And the way we've looked at it, is why try to legislate along the lines of the fastest growing, most innovative companies, which tend to be these startups and SMEs in the country. And we tend to work, our role, is really what we call team Bahrain, and that strategy is to nurture a combination of all the regulators, >> Uh-huh. >> All the universities, all the schools, every single player, all the private sector players, students, into a collectivized understanding of where we want to go. And based on that, we constantly have an ongoing conversation with everybody, including the VCs about how we can meaningfully make impacts. >> Yeah. >> So just on the VC point, we recently set up and will have fund to funds, which is $100 million fund of funds, it puts money directly into venture capital funds, which then can redeploy that investment back into startups. The only request that we typically have for that fund, is that they set up a presence in Bahrain. In so far as they're going to receive capital. What that means is that there's going to be a critical mass in the country of venture capital funds that are now closer to those startups, and in a direct conversation with every part of society, whether it is government regulation all the way down to private sector. >> So you got some capital enablement there. >> Absolutely. >> That's awesome. >> We'll see about the capital markets, and you guys some developments goin' on there. >> Yeah. >> Final question I want to get your thoughts. From last year to this year, in looking forward, Mohamed, what are you most excited about right now? >> I'm excited about a whole lot. >> Come on, give me the top two, top three. >> So, the top three, there's stuff I can't talk about to be honest. >> Oh come on! (laughing) >> And you're going to see it come out in the next month. So there's stuff that's going to come out with respect to capital markets, and simplifying the investment. >> Yeah. >> Removing friction from the investment environment, and introducing greater amounts of volume. The other thing that I'm very excited about continues to be the capacity building that we're doing in universities with the AWS Educate program, that's continuing to expand in Bahrain. >> Mhmm. >> As well as other programs beyond AWS Educate, run by companies like Microsoft, >> Mhmm. >> Google with their development program. So there's a lot of fantastic capacity building work going on. And then I would also say, it's back to what I was saying earlier, it's just excited to see what companies are going to start building as we're opening up the infrastructure. We're working very closely with them and the regulators to make sure that as they build on top, they're not stopped by regulation, that the regulation constantly understands what they're trying to achieve. >> I like what you talk about, you got an ear to the ground, you're listening to what's going on in the marketplace, it's going to be, I think a lot of software surprises are going to come. >> Absolutely. >> You're going to start to see some, you know, what look like weird ideas turn into the best thing. Who would have thought that Airbnb would be successful. >> Yeah. >> Their original business plan was putting cots on the ground and selling cereal. >> Yeah. >> Now, they've changed the hotel industry. We're looking forward to seeing you guys do a great job, and we appreciate you supporting the Cube, to come here, it's awesome. >> Thanks for having me. >> And we hope to have the Cube in Bahrain next year as the team, covering you guys, and documenting what's going on. >> We look forward to continue to work with the team. >> Well, thank you very much, the Cube coverage at AWS Summit, Bahrain, I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. Be back with more coverage after this short break. (upbeat music)

(upbeat sparkling music) >> Hello everyone and welcome back to our wall-to-wall coverage of AWS re:Invent. We are live from the show floor here in fabulous Las Vegas, Nevada. My name is Savannah Peterson, here with my cohost John Furrier on theCUBE. John, end of day three. You're smiling. >> Yeah. >> You're still radiating energy. Is it, is it the community that's keeping your, your level up? >> It's just all the action. We've got a great special guest joining us for the first time on theCUBE. It's going to be great and Serverless wave is hitting. More and more Serverless embedded into the like, things like analytics, are going to make things tightly integrated. You can see a lot more kind of tightly coupled but yet still cohesive elements together being kind of end-to-end, and again, the, the zero-ELT vision is soon to be here. That and security, major news here at Amazon. Of course, this next segment is going to be awesome, about the modernization journey. We're going to hear a lot about that. >> Yeah, we are, and our next guest is also an extraordinarily adventurous one. Please welcome Joe from Arc XP. Thank you so much for being here. >> Thanks for having me. >> Savannah: How this show going for you? >> It's been great and you know, it's the end of the day but there's so much great energy at the show this year. >> Savannah: There really is. >> It's great walking the halls, seeing the great engineers, the thought leaders, including this session. So, it's been really a stimulating time. >> What do you do at Arc, what do you, what's your role? >> So, I'm Vice President of Technology and Product Development. I recently joined Arc to lead all the product development teams. We're an experience platform, so, in that platform we have content tools, we have delivery tools, we have subscription tools. It's a really exciting time in all those spaces. >> John: And your customer base is? >> Our customers today started with publishers. So, Arc XP was built for the Washington Post's internal needs many years ago and word got out about how great it was, built on top of the AWS tech stack and other publishers came and started licensing the software. We've moved from there to B2C commerce as well as enterprise scenarios. >> I think that's really interesting and I want to touch on your background a little bit here. You just mentioned the Washington Post. You have a background in broadcast. What was it, since you, since you are fresh, what was it that attracted you to Arc? What made you say yes? >> Yeah, so I spent a little under 10 years building the Associated Press Broadcast Newsroom Tools, some of them that you have used for many years, and you know, one of the things that was really exciting about joining ARC, was they were cloud native and they were cloud native from the start and so that really gave them a leg up with how quickly they could innovate, and now we see developers here at re:Invent be able to do custom Lambdas and new extensibility points in a way that, really, no one else can do in the CMS space >> Which, which is very exciting. Let's talk a little bit about your team and the development cycle. We've touched a lot on the economic uncertainty right now. How are things internally? What's the culture pulse? >> Yeah, so the return to work has been a thing for us, just like- >> Savannah: Are you back in office? >> All of them. We actually have a globally distributed team, and so, if you happen to be lucky enough to be in Washington, DC or Chicago or some of our other centers, there's an opportunity to be in the office, but most of our engineers work remotely. One of the exciting things we did earlier this year was ARC week. We brought everyone to DC to see each other face-to-face, and that same energy you see at re:Invent, was there in person with our engineers. >> I believe that. So, I'm a marketer by trade. I love that you're all about the digital experience. Are you creating digital- I mean everyone needs some sort of digital experience. >> Joe: Yes. >> Every company is a technology company now. Do you work across verticals? You see more niche or industry specific? >> Yeah, so we began with a very large vertical of media and broadcast. >> Savannah: There's a couple companies in that category. >> There's a couple big ones out there. >> Savannah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> And actually their challenges are really high volume production of great digital storytelling, and so, solving their problems has enabled us to have a platform that works for anyone that needs to tell a story digitally, whether it's a commerce site, corporate HR department. >> Savannah: Which is everyone, right? >> Virtually everyone needs to get their story out today. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And so we have gone to a bunch of other verticals and we've seen the benefits of having that strong, cloud-based platform offer the scale that all storytellers need. >> What are some of the challenges today that aren't, that weren't there a decade ago or even five years ago? We see a lot of media companies looking at the business model innovations, changing landscapes omnichannel distribution, different formats. What's some of the challenges that's going on in content? >> So, you know, content challenges include both production of content and delivery of that content through a great experience. So different parts of ARC focus on those problems and you got to monetize it as well, but what I'd say is unique to Arc and the challenge we talk to our customers about a lot is multi-format production. So, it's not just about one channel. >> Savannah: Right. It's about telling a story and having it go across multi-channels, multi-sites, and having the infrastructure both technically and in the workflow tools, is super critical for our customers and it is a challenge that we receive well. >> A lot of AI is coming into the conversation here. Data, AI, publishing, video, user generated content. It's all data. >> Absolutely, yep. >> It's all data. >> Joe: It's an immense amount of data. >> How do you look at the data plane or the data layer, the data aspect of the platform and what are some of the customers leaning into or are kicking the tires around? What are some of the trends, and what are some of the core issues you see? >> Yeah, so I've spent a lot of time in data ML and analytics looking at giant data sets, and you know, when you look at CMS systems and experience platforms, the first class that it's in, is really the, the documents themselves. What is the story you're saying? But where the rich data is that we can analyze is user behaviors, global distribution of content, how we optimize our CDN and really give a personal experience to the reader, but beyond that, we see a lot of advantages in our digital asset management platform, which is for video, audio, photos, all kinds of media formats, and applying AIML to do detection, suggest photos that might be appropriate based on what a journalist or a marketer is writing in their story. So, there's a lot of opportunities around that sort of data. >> What are some of the business model changes that you're seeing? 'Cause remember we're in digital, Page view advertising has gone down, subscription firewalls on blogs. You got things like Substack emerging. Journalists are kind of like changing. I've seen companies go out of business, some of the media companies or change, some of the small ones go out of business, the bigger ones are evolving. What are some of the business model enablements that you guys see coming, that a platform could deliver, so that a company can value their content, and their talent? >> For sure. I mean this is a perennial question in the media space, right? It's been going on for two decades. >> I was going to say we're- >> Right. >> So it's like- >> Joe: Right, and so we've seen that play out- >> John: Little softball for you. >> Really for almost every format. It's a softball, but- >> It's day three. >> How are we addressing that? You know what, first and foremost, you got to do great storytelling, so, we have tools for that, but then presenting that story, and a great experience no matter what device you're on, that's going to be critical no matter how you're monetizing it, and so, you know, we have customers that go very ad heavy. We also have a subscription platform that can do that built into our infrastructure. >> 50 million plus registered users, correct? >> Yeah, it's unbelievable to scale. Really, Arc is a growth story, and so we went from serving the Washington Post needs, to over 2000 sites today, across 25 countries. >> Very- >> How do we get to that? How do we get that audience if we want to? Can we join that network? Is it a network of people? >> I love that question. >> Of people that are using Arc XP? >> Yeah. >> Actually, we recently launched a new effort around our community, so I think they actually had a meeting yesterday, and so that's one way to get involved, but as you said, everyone needs to have a site and tell great stories. >> Yeah. >> So, we see a wide appeal for our platform, and what's unique about ARC, is it's truly a SaaS model. This is delivered via SaaS, where we take care of all of the services, over a hundred Amazon services, behind the scenes- >> Wow. >> Built into Arc. We manage all of that for our customers, including the CDN. So, it's not as though as our customers have to be making sure the site is up, we've got teams to take care of that 24/7 >> Great value proposition and a lot of need for this, people doing their own media systems themselves. What's the secret sauce to your success? If you had to kind of look at the technology? I see serverless is a big part of it on the EDB stack. What's the, what's the secret sauce? >> I think the secret sauce comes from the roots that Arc has in the Washington Post >> You understand it. >> And some of the most challenging content production workflows anywhere in the world, and I've spent a lot of time, in many newsrooms. So, I think that knowledge, the urgency of what it takes to get a story out, the zero tolerance for the site going down. That DNA really enables our engineers to do great solutions. >> Talk about understanding your user. I mean that that's, and drinking the Kool-Aid, but in a totally amazing way. One of the other things that stuck out to me in doing my research is not only are you a service used, now, by 50 million subscribers, but beyond that, you pride yourself on being a turnkey solution. Folks can get Arc up and running quite quickly. Correct? >> For sure. So, one of the things we built into Arc XP is something called Themes, which has a bunch of pre-built blocks, that our customers don't have to end up with a custom codebase when they've developed a new experience platform. That's not a good solution, of every site be a custom codebase. We're a product with extensibility hooks. >> Savannah: Right. >> That really enables someone to get started very quickly, and that also includes bringing in content from other platforms into Arc, itself. So that journey of migrating a site is really smooth with our toolset. >> What's the history of the company? Is it, did it come from the Washington Post or was that it's original customer? What's the DNA of the firm? >> Yeah, so it was originally built by the Washington Post for the Washington Post. So, designed by digital storytellers, for storytelling. >> Savannah: And one of the largest media outlets out there. >> So, that's that "DNA", the "special sauce". >> Yeah, yeah. >> So that's where that connection is. >> That really is where it comes through. >> John: Awesome. Congratulations on- >> Now today, you know, those roots are still apparent, but we've been very responsive to other needs in the markets around commerce. There's a whole other set of DNA we've brought in, experts in understanding different systems for inventory management, so we can do a great experience on top of some of those legacy platforms. >> My final question, before we go to the challenge- >> Savannah: To the challenge. >> Is, what's next? What's on the roadmap as you look at the technology and the teams that you're managing? What's some of the next milestone or priorities for your business? >> So, it is really about growth and that's the story of Arc XP, which has driven our technology decisions. So, our choice to go serverless was driven by growth and need to make sure we had exceptional experience but most importantly that our engineers could be focused on product development and responding to what the market needed. So, that's why I'd say next year is about, it's enabling our engineers to keep up with the scaling business but still provide great value on the roadmap. >> And it's not like there's ever going to be a shortage of content or stories that need to be told. So I suspect there's a lot of resilience in what you're doing. >> And we hope to be inspired with new ways of telling stories. >> Yeah. >> So if you're in the Washington Post or other media outlets. >> John: Or theCUBE. >> Joe: Or theCUBE. >> Savannah: I know, I was just- >> There's just great formats out there. >> Best dev meeting, let's chat after, for sure. >> Exactly, that's what I've been thinking the whole time. I'm sure the wheels are turning over on this side- >> So great to have you on. >> In a lot of different ways. So, we have a new tradition here at re:Invent, where we are providing you with an opportunity for quite a sizzle reel, Instagram video, 30 second, thought leadership soundbite. What is your hot take, key theme or most important thing that you are thinking about since we're here at this year's show? >> I would say it's the energy that's building in the industry, getting back together, the collaboration, and how that's resulting in us using new technologies. You know, the conversation's no longer about shifting to the cloud. We all have huge infrastructure, the conversation's about observability, how do we know what's going in? How do we make sure we're getting the most value for our customers with those, that technology set. So, I think the energy around that is super exciting. I've always loved building products. So, next year think it's going to be a great year with that, putting together these new technologies. >> I think you nailed it. The energy really is the story and the collaboration. Joe, thank you so much for being here and sharing your story. Arc is lucky to have you and we'll close with one personal anecdote. Favorite place to sail? >> Favorite place to sail. So, I lived in the Caribbean for many years, as we were talking about earlier >> None of us are jealous up here at all. >> And so my favorite place to sail would be in the British Virgin Islands, which was closed during Covid but is now back open, so, if any you've had a chance to go to the BVI, make some time, hop on Catamaran, there's some great spots. >> Well, I think you just gave us a catalyst for our next vacation, maybe a team off-site. >> Bucket list item, of course. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, Let's bring everyone together. >> Here we go. I love it. Well Joe, thanks so much again for being on the show. We hope to have you back on theCUBE again sometime soon, and thank all of you for tuning in to this scintillating coverage that we have here, live from the AWS re:Invent show floor in Las Vegas, Nevada with John Furrier. I'm Savannah Peterson. This is theCUBE, the leader in high tech coverage. (upbeat music)

>> From The Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, bringing you data driven insights from The Cube at ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> The reverse momentum in tech stocks caused by rising interest rates, less attractive discounted cash flow models, and more tepid forward guidance, can be easily measured by public market valuations. And while there's lots of discussion about the impact on private companies and cash runway and 409A valuations, measuring the performance of non-public companies isn't as easy. IPOs have dried up and public statements by private companies, of course, they accentuate the good and they kind of hide the bad. Real data, unless you're an insider, is hard to find. Hello and welcome to this week's "Wikibon Cube Insights" powered by ETR. In this "Breaking Analysis", we unlock some of the secrets that non-public, emerging tech companies may or may not be sharing. And we do this by introducing you to a capability from ETR that we've not exposed you to over the past couple of years, it's called the Emerging Technologies Survey, and it is packed with sentiment data and performance data based on surveys of more than a thousand CIOs and IT buyers covering more than 400 companies. And we've invited back our colleague, Erik Bradley of ETR to help explain the survey and the data that we're going to cover today. Erik, this survey is something that I've not personally spent much time on, but I'm blown away at the data. It's really unique and detailed. First of all, welcome. Good to see you again. >> Great to see you too, Dave, and I'm really happy to be talking about the ETS or the Emerging Technology Survey. Even our own clients of constituents probably don't spend as much time in here as they should. >> Yeah, because there's so much in the mainstream, but let's pull up a slide to bring out the survey composition. Tell us about the study. How often do you run it? What's the background and the methodology? >> Yeah, you were just spot on the way you were talking about the private tech companies out there. So what we did is we decided to take all the vendors that we track that are not yet public and move 'em over to the ETS. And there isn't a lot of information out there. If you're not in Silicon (indistinct), you're not going to get this stuff. So PitchBook and Tech Crunch are two out there that gives some data on these guys. But what we really wanted to do was go out to our community. We have 6,000, ITDMs in our community. We wanted to ask them, "Are you aware of these companies? And if so, are you allocating any resources to them? Are you planning to evaluate them," and really just kind of figure out what we can do. So this particular survey, as you can see, 1000 plus responses, over 450 vendors that we track. And essentially what we're trying to do here is talk about your evaluation and awareness of these companies and also your utilization. And also if you're not utilizing 'em, then we can also figure out your sales conversion or churn. So this is interesting, not only for the ITDMs themselves to figure out what their peers are evaluating and what they should put in POCs against the big guys when contracts come up. But it's also really interesting for the tech vendors themselves to see how they're performing. >> And you can see 2/3 of the respondents are director level of above. You got 28% is C-suite. There is of course a North America bias, 70, 75% is North America. But these smaller companies, you know, that's when they start doing business. So, okay. We're going to do a couple of things here today. First, we're going to give you the big picture across the sectors that ETR covers within the ETS survey. And then we're going to look at the high and low sentiment for the larger private companies. And then we're going to do the same for the smaller private companies, the ones that don't have as much mindshare. And then I'm going to put those two groups together and we're going to look at two dimensions, actually three dimensions, which companies are being evaluated the most. Second, companies are getting the most usage and adoption of their offerings. And then third, which companies are seeing the highest churn rates, which of course is a silent killer of companies. And then finally, we're going to look at the sentiment and mindshare for two key areas that we like to cover often here on "Breaking Analysis", security and data. And data comprises database, including data warehousing, and then big data analytics is the second part of data. And then machine learning and AI is the third section within data that we're going to look at. Now, one other thing before we get into it, ETR very often will include open source offerings in the mix, even though they're not companies like TensorFlow or Kubernetes, for example. And we'll call that out during this discussion. The reason this is done is for context, because everyone is using open source. It is the heart of innovation and many business models are super glued to an open source offering, like take MariaDB, for example. There's the foundation and then there's with the open source code and then there, of course, the company that sells services around the offering. Okay, so let's first look at the highest and lowest sentiment among these private firms, the ones that have the highest mindshare. So they're naturally going to be somewhat larger. And we do this on two dimensions, sentiment on the vertical axis and mindshare on the horizontal axis and note the open source tool, see Kubernetes, Postgres, Kafka, TensorFlow, Jenkins, Grafana, et cetera. So Erik, please explain what we're looking at here, how it's derived and what the data tells us. >> Certainly, so there is a lot here, so we're going to break it down first of all by explaining just what mindshare and net sentiment is. You explain the axis. We have so many evaluation metrics, but we need to aggregate them into one so that way we can rank against each other. Net sentiment is really the aggregation of all the positive and subtracting out the negative. So the net sentiment is a very quick way of looking at where these companies stand versus their peers in their sectors and sub sectors. Mindshare is basically the awareness of them, which is good for very early stage companies. And you'll see some names on here that are obviously been around for a very long time. And they're clearly be the bigger on the axis on the outside. Kubernetes, for instance, as you mentioned, is open source. This de facto standard for all container orchestration, and it should be that far up into the right, because that's what everyone's using. In fact, the open source leaders are so prevalent in the emerging technology survey that we break them out later in our analysis, 'cause it's really not fair to include them and compare them to the actual companies that are providing the support and the security around that open source technology. But no survey, no analysis, no research would be complete without including these open source tech. So what we're looking at here, if I can just get away from the open source names, we see other things like Databricks and OneTrust . They're repeating as top net sentiment performers here. And then also the design vendors. People don't spend a lot of time on 'em, but Miro and Figma. This is their third survey in a row where they're just dominating that sentiment overall. And Adobe should probably take note of that because they're really coming after them. But Databricks, we all know probably would've been a public company by now if the market hadn't turned, but you can see just how dominant they are in a survey of nothing but private companies. And we'll see that again when we talk about the database later. >> And I'll just add, so you see automation anywhere on there, the big UiPath competitor company that was not able to get to the public markets. They've been trying. Snyk, Peter McKay's company, they've raised a bunch of money, big security player. They're doing some really interesting things in developer security, helping developers secure the data flow, H2O.ai, Dataiku AI company. We saw them at the Snowflake Summit. Redis Labs, Netskope and security. So a lot of names that we know that ultimately we think are probably going to be hitting the public market. Okay, here's the same view for private companies with less mindshare, Erik. Take us through this one. >> On the previous slide too real quickly, I wanted to pull that security scorecard and we'll get back into it. But this is a newcomer, that I couldn't believe how strong their data was, but we'll bring that up in a second. Now, when we go to the ones of lower mindshare, it's interesting to talk about open source, right? Kubernetes was all the way on the top right. Everyone uses containers. Here we see Istio up there. Not everyone is using service mesh as much. And that's why Istio is in the smaller breakout. But still when you talk about net sentiment, it's about the leader, it's the highest one there is. So really interesting to point out. Then we see other names like Collibra in the data side really performing well. And again, as always security, very well represented here. We have Aqua, Wiz, Armis, which is a standout in this survey this time around. They do IoT security. I hadn't even heard of them until I started digging into the data here. And I couldn't believe how well they were doing. And then of course you have AnyScale, which is doing a second best in this and the best name in the survey Hugging Face, which is a machine learning AI tool. Also doing really well on a net sentiment, but they're not as far along on that access of mindshare just yet. So these are again, emerging companies that might not be as well represented in the enterprise as they will be in a couple of years. >> Hugging Face sounds like something you do with your two year old. Like you said, you see high performers, AnyScale do machine learning and you mentioned them. They came out of Berkeley. Collibra Governance, InfluxData is on there. InfluxDB's a time series database. And yeah, of course, Alex, if you bring that back up, you get a big group of red dots, right? That's the bad zone, I guess, which Sisense does vis, Yellowbrick Data is a NPP database. How should we interpret the red dots, Erik? I mean, is it necessarily a bad thing? Could it be misinterpreted? What's your take on that? >> Sure, well, let me just explain the definition of it first from a data science perspective, right? We're a data company first. So the gray dots that you're seeing that aren't named, that's the mean that's the average. So in order for you to be on this chart, you have to be at least one standard deviation above or below that average. So that gray is where we're saying, "Hey, this is where the lump of average comes in. This is where everyone normally stands." So you either have to be an outperformer or an underperformer to even show up in this analysis. So by definition, yes, the red dots are bad. You're at least one standard deviation below the average of your peers. It's not where you want to be. And if you're on the lower left, not only are you not performing well from a utilization or an actual usage rate, but people don't even know who you are. So that's a problem, obviously. And the VCs and the PEs out there that are backing these companies, they're the ones who mostly are interested in this data. >> Yeah. Oh, that's great explanation. Thank you for that. No, nice benchmarking there and yeah, you don't want to be in the red. All right, let's get into the next segment here. Here going to look at evaluation rates, adoption and the all important churn. First new evaluations. Let's bring up that slide. And Erik, take us through this. >> So essentially I just want to explain what evaluation means is that people will cite that they either plan to evaluate the company or they're currently evaluating. So that means we're aware of 'em and we are choosing to do a POC of them. And then we'll see later how that turns into utilization, which is what a company wants to see, awareness, evaluation, and then actually utilizing them. That's sort of the life cycle for these emerging companies. So what we're seeing here, again, with very high evaluation rates. H2O, we mentioned. SecurityScorecard jumped up again. Chargebee, Snyk, Salt Security, Armis. A lot of security names are up here, Aqua, Netskope, which God has been around forever. I still can't believe it's in an Emerging Technology Survey But so many of these names fall in data and security again, which is why we decided to pick those out Dave. And on the lower side, Vena, Acton, those unfortunately took the dubious award of the lowest evaluations in our survey, but I prefer to focus on the positive. So SecurityScorecard, again, real standout in this one, they're in a security assessment space, basically. They'll come in and assess for you how your security hygiene is. And it's an area of a real interest right now amongst our ITDM community. >> Yeah, I mean, I think those, and then Arctic Wolf is up there too. They're doing managed services. You had mentioned Netskope. Yeah, okay. All right, let's look at now adoption. These are the companies whose offerings are being used the most and are above that standard deviation in the green. Take us through this, Erik. >> Sure, yet again, what we're looking at is, okay, we went from awareness, we went to evaluation. Now it's about utilization, which means a survey respondent's going to state "Yes, we evaluated and we plan to utilize it" or "It's already in our enterprise and we're actually allocating further resources to it." Not surprising, again, a lot of open source, the reason why, it's free. So it's really easy to grow your utilization on something that's free. But as you and I both know, as Red Hat proved, there's a lot of money to be made once the open source is adopted, right? You need the governance, you need the security, you need the support wrapped around it. So here we're seeing Kubernetes, Postgres, Apache Kafka, Jenkins, Grafana. These are all open source based names. But if we're looking at names that are non open source, we're going to see Databricks, Automation Anywhere, Rubrik all have the highest mindshare. So these are the names, not surprisingly, all names that probably should have been public by now. Everyone's expecting an IPO imminently. These are the names that have the highest mindshare. If we talk about the highest utilization rates, again, Miro and Figma pop up, and I know they're not household names, but they are just dominant in this survey. These are applications that are meant for design software and, again, they're going after an Autodesk or a CAD or Adobe type of thing. It is just dominant how high the utilization rates are here, which again is something Adobe should be paying attention to. And then you'll see a little bit lower, but also interesting, we see Collibra again, we see Hugging Face again. And these are names that are obviously in the data governance, ML, AI side. So we're seeing a ton of data, a ton of security and Rubrik was interesting in this one, too, high utilization and high mindshare. We know how pervasive they are in the enterprise already. >> Erik, Alex, keep that up for a second, if you would. So yeah, you mentioned Rubrik. Cohesity's not on there. They're sort of the big one. We're going to talk about them in a moment. Puppet is interesting to me because you remember the early days of that sort of space, you had Puppet and Chef and then you had Ansible. Red Hat bought Ansible and then Ansible really took off. So it's interesting to see Puppet on there as well. Okay. So now let's look at the churn because this one is where you don't want to be. It's, of course, all red 'cause churn is bad. Take us through this, Erik. >> Yeah, definitely don't want to be here and I don't love to dwell on the negative. So we won't spend as much time. But to your point, there's one thing I want to point out that think it's important. So you see Rubrik in the same spot, but Rubrik has so many citations in our survey that it actually would make sense that they're both being high utilization and churn just because they're so well represented. They have such a high overall representation in our survey. And the reason I call that out is Cohesity. Cohesity has an extremely high churn rate here about 17% and unlike Rubrik, they were not on the utilization side. So Rubrik is seeing both, Cohesity is not. It's not being utilized, but it's seeing a high churn. So that's the way you can look at this data and say, "Hm." Same thing with Puppet. You noticed that it was on the other slide. It's also on this one. So basically what it means is a lot of people are giving Puppet a shot, but it's starting to churn, which means it's not as sticky as we would like. One that was surprising on here for me was Tanium. It's kind of jumbled in there. It's hard to see in the middle, but Tanium, I was very surprised to see as high of a churn because what I do hear from our end user community is that people that use it, like it. It really kind of spreads into not only vulnerability management, but also that endpoint detection and response side. So I was surprised by that one, mostly to see Tanium in here. Mural, again, was another one of those application design softwares that's seeing a very high churn as well. >> So you're saying if you're in both... Alex, bring that back up if you would. So if you're in both like MariaDB is for example, I think, yeah, they're in both. They're both green in the previous one and red here, that's not as bad. You mentioned Rubrik is going to be in both. Cohesity is a bit of a concern. Cohesity just brought on Sanjay Poonen. So this could be a go to market issue, right? I mean, 'cause Cohesity has got a great product and they got really happy customers. So they're just maybe having to figure out, okay, what's the right ideal customer profile and Sanjay Poonen, I guarantee, is going to have that company cranking. I mean they had been doing very well on the surveys and had fallen off of a bit. The other interesting things wondering the previous survey I saw Cvent, which is an event platform. My only reason I pay attention to that is 'cause we actually have an event platform. We don't sell it separately. We bundle it as part of our offerings. And you see Hopin on here. Hopin raised a billion dollars during the pandemic. And we were like, "Wow, that's going to blow up." And so you see Hopin on the churn and you didn't see 'em in the previous chart, but that's sort of interesting. Like you said, let's not kind of dwell on the negative, but you really don't. You know, churn is a real big concern. Okay, now we're going to drill down into two sectors, security and data. Where data comprises three areas, database and data warehousing, machine learning and AI and big data analytics. So first let's take a look at the security sector. Now this is interesting because not only is it a sector drill down, but also gives an indicator of how much money the firm has raised, which is the size of that bubble. And to tell us if a company is punching above its weight and efficiently using its venture capital. Erik, take us through this slide. Explain the dots, the size of the dots. Set this up please. >> Yeah. So again, the axis is still the same, net sentiment and mindshare, but what we've done this time is we've taken publicly available information on how much capital company is raised and that'll be the size of the circle you see around the name. And then whether it's green or red is basically saying relative to the amount of money they've raised, how are they doing in our data? So when you see a Netskope, which has been around forever, raised a lot of money, that's why you're going to see them more leading towards red, 'cause it's just been around forever and kind of would expect it. Versus a name like SecurityScorecard, which is only raised a little bit of money and it's actually performing just as well, if not better than a name, like a Netskope. OneTrust doing absolutely incredible right now. BeyondTrust. We've seen the issues with Okta, right. So those are two names that play in that space that obviously are probably getting some looks about what's going on right now. Wiz, we've all heard about right? So raised a ton of money. It's doing well on net sentiment, but the mindshare isn't as well as you'd want, which is why you're going to see a little bit of that red versus a name like Aqua, which is doing container and application security. And hasn't raised as much money, but is really neck and neck with a name like Wiz. So that is why on a relative basis, you'll see that more green. As we all know, information security is never going away. But as we'll get to later in the program, Dave, I'm not sure in this current market environment, if people are as willing to do POCs and switch away from their security provider, right. There's a little bit of tepidness out there, a little trepidation. So right now we're seeing overall a slight pause, a slight cooling in overall evaluations on the security side versus historical levels a year ago. >> Now let's stay on here for a second. So a couple things I want to point out. So it's interesting. Now Snyk has raised over, I think $800 million but you can see them, they're high on the vertical and the horizontal, but now compare that to Lacework. It's hard to see, but they're kind of buried in the middle there. That's the biggest dot in this whole thing. I think I'm interpreting this correctly. They've raised over a billion dollars. It's a Mike Speiser company. He was the founding investor in Snowflake. So people watch that very closely, but that's an example of where they're not punching above their weight. They recently had a layoff and they got to fine tune things, but I'm still confident they they're going to do well. 'Cause they're approaching security as a data problem, which is probably people having trouble getting their arms around that. And then again, I see Arctic Wolf. They're not red, they're not green, but they've raised fair amount of money, but it's showing up to the right and decent level there. And a couple of the other ones that you mentioned, Netskope. Yeah, they've raised a lot of money, but they're actually performing where you want. What you don't want is where Lacework is, right. They've got some work to do to really take advantage of the money that they raised last November and prior to that. >> Yeah, if you're seeing that more neutral color, like you're calling out with an Arctic Wolf, like that means relative to their peers, this is where they should be. It's when you're seeing that red on a Lacework where we all know, wow, you raised a ton of money and your mindshare isn't where it should be. Your net sentiment is not where it should be comparatively. And then you see these great standouts, like Salt Security and SecurityScorecard and Abnormal. You know they haven't raised that much money yet, but their net sentiment's higher and their mindshare's doing well. So those basically in a nutshell, if you're a PE or a VC and you see a small green circle, then you're doing well, then it means you made a good investment. >> Some of these guys, I don't know, but you see these small green circles. Those are the ones you want to start digging into and maybe help them catch a wave. Okay, let's get into the data discussion. And again, three areas, database slash data warehousing, big data analytics and ML AI. First, we're going to look at the database sector. So Alex, thank you for bringing that up. Alright, take us through this, Erik. Actually, let me just say Postgres SQL. I got to ask you about this. It shows some funding, but that actually could be a mix of EDB, the company that commercializes Postgres and Postgres the open source database, which is a transaction system and kind of an open source Oracle. You see MariaDB is a database, but open source database. But the companies they've raised over $200 million and they filed an S-4. So Erik looks like this might be a little bit of mashup of companies and open source products. Help us understand this. >> Yeah, it's tough when you start dealing with the open source side and I'll be honest with you, there is a little bit of a mashup here. There are certain names here that are a hundred percent for profit companies. And then there are others that are obviously open source based like Redis is open source, but Redis Labs is the one trying to monetize the support around it. So you're a hundred percent accurate on this slide. I think one of the things here that's important to note though, is just how important open source is to data. If you're going to be going to any of these areas, it's going to be open source based to begin with. And Neo4j is one I want to call out here. It's not one everyone's familiar with, but it's basically geographical charting database, which is a name that we're seeing on a net sentiment side actually really, really high. When you think about it's the third overall net sentiment for a niche database play. It's not as big on the mindshare 'cause it's use cases aren't as often, but third biggest play on net sentiment. I found really interesting on this slide. >> And again, so MariaDB, as I said, they filed an S-4 I think $50 million in revenue, that might even be ARR. So they're not huge, but they're getting there. And by the way, MariaDB, if you don't know, was the company that was formed the day that Oracle bought Sun in which they got MySQL and MariaDB has done a really good job of replacing a lot of MySQL instances. Oracle has responded with MySQL HeatWave, which was kind of the Oracle version of MySQL. So there's some interesting battles going on there. If you think about the LAMP stack, the M in the LAMP stack was MySQL. And so now it's all MariaDB replacing that MySQL for a large part. And then you see again, the red, you know, you got to have some concerns about there. Aerospike's been around for a long time. SingleStore changed their name a couple years ago, last year. Yellowbrick Data, Fire Bolt was kind of going after Snowflake for a while, but yeah, you want to get out of that red zone. So they got some work to do. >> And Dave, real quick for the people that aren't aware, I just want to let them know that we can cut this data with the public company data as well. So we can cross over this with that because some of these names are competing with the larger public company names as well. So we can go ahead and cross reference like a MariaDB with a Mongo, for instance, or of something of that nature. So it's not in this slide, but at another point we can certainly explain on a relative basis how these private names are doing compared to the other ones as well. >> All right, let's take a quick look at analytics. Alex, bring that up if you would. Go ahead, Erik. >> Yeah, I mean, essentially here, I can't see it on my screen, my apologies. I just kind of went to blank on that. So gimme one second to catch up. >> So I could set it up while you're doing that. You got Grafana up and to the right. I mean, this is huge right. >> Got it thank you. I lost my screen there for a second. Yep. Again, open source name Grafana, absolutely up and to the right. But as we know, Grafana Labs is actually picking up a lot of speed based on Grafana, of course. And I think we might actually hear some noise from them coming this year. The names that are actually a little bit more disappointing than I want to call out are names like ThoughtSpot. It's been around forever. Their mindshare of course is second best here but based on the amount of time they've been around and the amount of money they've raised, it's not actually outperforming the way it should be. We're seeing Moogsoft obviously make some waves. That's very high net sentiment for that company. It's, you know, what, third, fourth position overall in this entire area, Another name like Fivetran, Matillion is doing well. Fivetran, even though it's got a high net sentiment, again, it's raised so much money that we would've expected a little bit more at this point. I know you know this space extremely well, but basically what we're looking at here and to the bottom left, you're going to see some names with a lot of red, large circles that really just aren't performing that well. InfluxData, however, second highest net sentiment. And it's really pretty early on in this stage and the feedback we're getting on this name is the use cases are great, the efficacy's great. And I think it's one to watch out for. >> InfluxData, time series database. The other interesting things I just noticed here, you got Tamer on here, which is that little small green. Those are the ones we were saying before, look for those guys. They might be some of the interesting companies out there and then observe Jeremy Burton's company. They do observability on top of Snowflake, not green, but kind of in that gray. So that's kind of cool. Monte Carlo is another one, they're sort of slightly green. They are doing some really interesting things in data and data mesh. So yeah, okay. So I can spend all day on this stuff, Erik, phenomenal data. I got to get back and really dig in. Let's end with machine learning and AI. Now this chart it's similar in its dimensions, of course, except for the money raised. We're not showing that size of the bubble, but AI is so hot. We wanted to cover that here, Erik, explain this please. Why TensorFlow is highlighted and walk us through this chart. >> Yeah, it's funny yet again, right? Another open source name, TensorFlow being up there. And I just want to explain, we do break out machine learning, AI is its own sector. A lot of this of course really is intertwined with the data side, but it is on its own area. And one of the things I think that's most important here to break out is Databricks. We started to cover Databricks in machine learning, AI. That company has grown into much, much more than that. So I do want to state to you Dave, and also the audience out there that moving forward, we're going to be moving Databricks out of only the MA/AI into other sectors. So we can kind of value them against their peers a little bit better. But in this instance, you could just see how dominant they are in this area. And one thing that's not here, but I do want to point out is that we have the ability to break this down by industry vertical, organization size. And when I break this down into Fortune 500 and Fortune 1000, both Databricks and Tensorflow are even better than you see here. So it's quite interesting to see that the names that are succeeding are also succeeding with the largest organizations in the world. And as we know, large organizations means large budgets. So this is one area that I just thought was really interesting to point out that as we break it down, the data by vertical, these two names still are the outstanding players. >> I just also want to call it H2O.ai. They're getting a lot of buzz in the marketplace and I'm seeing them a lot more. Anaconda, another one. Dataiku consistently popping up. DataRobot is also interesting because all the kerfuffle that's going on there. The Cube guy, Cube alum, Chris Lynch stepped down as executive chairman. All this stuff came out about how the executives were taking money off the table and didn't allow the employees to participate in that money raising deal. So that's pissed a lot of people off. And so they're now going through some kind of uncomfortable things, which is unfortunate because DataRobot, I noticed, we haven't covered them that much in "Breaking Analysis", but I've noticed them oftentimes, Erik, in the surveys doing really well. So you would think that company has a lot of potential. But yeah, it's an important space that we're going to continue to watch. Let me ask you Erik, can you contextualize this from a time series standpoint? I mean, how is this changed over time? >> Yeah, again, not show here, but in the data. I'm sorry, go ahead. >> No, I'm sorry. What I meant, I should have interjected. In other words, you would think in a downturn that these emerging companies would be less interesting to buyers 'cause they're more risky. What have you seen? >> Yeah, and it was interesting before we went live, you and I were having this conversation about "Is the downturn stopping people from evaluating these private companies or not," right. In a larger sense, that's really what we're doing here. How are these private companies doing when it comes down to the actual practitioners? The people with the budget, the people with the decision making. And so what I did is, we have historical data as you know, I went back to the Emerging Technology Survey we did in November of 21, right at the crest right before the market started to really fall and everything kind of started to fall apart there. And what I noticed is on the security side, very much so, we're seeing less evaluations than we were in November 21. So I broke it down. On cloud security, net sentiment went from 21% to 16% from November '21. That's a pretty big drop. And again, that sentiment is our one aggregate metric for overall positivity, meaning utilization and actual evaluation of the name. Again in database, we saw it drop a little bit from 19% to 13%. However, in analytics we actually saw it stay steady. So it's pretty interesting that yes, cloud security and security in general is always going to be important. But right now we're seeing less overall net sentiment in that space. But within analytics, we're seeing steady with growing mindshare. And also to your point earlier in machine learning, AI, we're seeing steady net sentiment and mindshare has grown a whopping 25% to 30%. So despite the downturn, we're seeing more awareness of these companies in analytics and machine learning and a steady, actual utilization of them. I can't say the same in security and database. They're actually shrinking a little bit since the end of last year. >> You know it's interesting, we were on a round table, Erik does these round tables with CISOs and CIOs, and I remember one time you had asked the question, "How do you think about some of these emerging tech companies?" And one of the executives said, "I always include somebody in the bottom left of the Gartner Magic Quadrant in my RFPs. I think he said, "That's how I found," I don't know, it was Zscaler or something like that years before anybody ever knew of them "Because they're going to help me get to the next level." So it's interesting to see Erik in these sectors, how they're holding up in many cases. >> Yeah. It's a very important part for the actual IT practitioners themselves. There's always contracts coming up and you always have to worry about your next round of negotiations. And that's one of the roles these guys play. You have to do a POC when contracts come up, but it's also their job to stay on top of the new technology. You can't fall behind. Like everyone's a software company. Now everyone's a tech company, no matter what you're doing. So these guys have to stay in on top of it. And that's what this ETS can do. You can go in here and look and say, "All right, I'm going to evaluate their technology," and it could be twofold. It might be that you're ready to upgrade your technology and they're actually pushing the envelope or it simply might be I'm using them as a negotiation ploy. So when I go back to the big guy who I have full intentions of writing that contract to, at least I have some negotiation leverage. >> Erik, we got to leave it there. I could spend all day. I'm going to definitely dig into this on my own time. Thank you for introducing this, really appreciate your time today. >> I always enjoy it, Dave and I hope everyone out there has a great holiday weekend. Enjoy the rest of the summer. And, you know, I love to talk data. So anytime you want, just point the camera on me and I'll start talking data. >> You got it. I also want to thank the team at ETR, not only Erik, but Darren Bramen who's a data scientist, really helped prepare this data, the entire team over at ETR. I cannot tell you how much additional data there is. We are just scratching the surface in this "Breaking Analysis". So great job guys. I want to thank Alex Myerson. Who's on production and he manages the podcast. Ken Shifman as well, who's just coming back from VMware Explore. Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on social media and in our newsletters. And Rob Hof is our editor in chief over at SiliconANGLE. Does some great editing for us. Thank you. All of you guys. Remember these episodes, they're all available as podcast, wherever you listen. All you got to do is just search "Breaking Analysis" podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. Or you can email me to get in touch david.vellante@siliconangle.com. You can DM me at dvellante or comment on my LinkedIn posts and please do check out etr.ai for the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for Erik Bradley and The Cube Insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching. Be well. And we'll see you next time on "Breaking Analysis". (upbeat music)

(gentle music) >> Hello everyone, and welcome back to day two of AWS re:Invent 2021, theCUBE's continuous coverage. My name is Dave Vellante, I'm here with my co-host, David Nicholson. We've got two sets. We had two remote sets prior to the show. We're running all kinds of activities and we've got AWS executives, partners, ecosystem technologists, Scott Weber is here as the director and an AWS partner, ambassador from PwC. Scott, good to see you. >> Nice to meet you guys. Thanks for letting me be here. >> Well, so your expertise is around application modernization. It's a hot theme these days. If you're a company with a lot of legacy debt, you've got a big complex application portfolio. I would think, especially with the forced match to digital over the last year and a half, two years. Now is really a time when you're probably too late to really start thinking about rationalizing your portfolio. What are you seeing in this space? >> Definitely, we're seeing the customers that have reached that point. I view modernization as sort of the second wave of cloud that's coming. So you had your first wave, the early adopters that lifted and shifted into the cloud. We still have people looking at getting into the cloud, but for those that went early, now, they're saying, "How do I get more out of the cloud? How do I get closer to cloud native?" And that's what we're starting to see around this modernization move is, I want to start to utilize those higher level services from AWS and the cloud providers. I want to get a better return, I want to stop worrying about running infrastructure and hardware. >> So when you think about, I go back all the way back to Y2K, that was like a boondoggle for IT to spend a bunch of doh and do some cool stuff. And then of course the .com crashed, but today it's different. It's really about the business impact the business outcome that you can drive in transforming your digital business. So how do you as a technology agnostic consultant help a company understand what they should leave alone or sunset? What they should aggressively migrate? What's the process that you use to do that? >> In some ways we go back, we can reuse sort of those 6Rs that maybe got a customer to the cloud, or as they're on that cloud journey, right? And you really want to focus on where can you optimize ROI. And you're going to come across those things that are going to be like, look, maybe it's a vendor COTS solution. There's not a lot we can do there. You're just going to have to continue down that path. Unless we can look to move that to a SaaS service. Maybe the vendor has gone to a SaaS offering. Or we get into looking at they've done development in house, but that development is still monolithic running on virtual machines, either in the data center or in AWS, but it's a critical system to that business. It's maybe it's become fragile. How can we now modernize that? Because that's where there's going to be a great return on investment for that customer, and it's also going to allow business agility for those customers. As we can get them to microservices and Lambda and function as a service, the blast radius for changes become smaller, allows the customer to move faster than what they're doing. So it's the rationalization becomes what's driving the business forward? What's critical to the business? But what's holding them back as well? So that the customers can start to move faster. >> So it's a formula of okay, what's the business value of those applications essentially? You can kind of rank that, but then it's a formula there's a cost equation. That's pretty straightforward to figure out the s is and the 2b but then there's a speed. Like an ongoing time to value from a developer standpoint and then I guess there's risk. Have you got your core jewels? Maybe you don't want to touch those yet. Is that kind of your algorithm? >> It is and on that sort of cost and value piece, that's where we can really see some interesting things happen, where as we get customers away from licensed OSS proprietary databases, that return on investment can be huge. So we've helped customers migrate from running .net applications on top of a typical Microsoft Windows stack and SQL server stack. All the way to taking those workloads, all the way, either to Linux containers or all the way to serverless if we're going to take all the steps to rewrite, you can drive 60, 70, 80% of the cost of operating at that platform out of it, then you start this flywheel effect of reinvesting that money back into the next project to help the customer move forward. >> And it's quick follow up, but I know you want to jump in. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Why wouldn't a customer, that's a Microsoft customer just run that on Azure? Why AWS? >> I mean, that's a good question and that sort of gets into a lot of philosophical, like discussion we talk about for a long time. The fact of the matter is the majority of your Windows workloads still run on top of AWS today. I would argue AWS has some pretty superior things in their underlying architecture, they're nitro architectures and things like that. But I think it's also choice. And, the whole move of .net to Linux, Microsoft started that they put the ability to, you can run SQL server on top of Linux. Well, if I run SQL server on top of Linux, I take out 20% of my costs right there. They put the support in for .net core to be able to run on Linux or on containers, but that's to help the developers move faster, that's to help us get to microservices. So that cloud provider choice, I think is becomes a bigger discussion, but a lot of people are choosing AWS because they're not just doing Microsoft workloads . Again, we could get very deep into like, trade-offs on why one over the other, but customers are choosing AWS for a lot of these words. >> Diversity and better cloud, better infrastructure. >> Yeah, and philosophical is an interesting way to look at it when it becomes a hostage negotiation. I'm not sure there was a lot of philosophy involved when server and SQL 2008 were being end of support life. And people were told, move it to Azure and we'll take care of you. Don't move it to Azure, you're on your own. But something on the subject of ROI. ROI is typically measured over time. How do you rectify and address the sort of CIO dilemma, which is that if ROI is being delivered fantastically in four years, but the average tenure of a CIO is 2.7 years, how do you address that? What is the sweet spot for timeframes that you're seeing for people to actually implement when you consider as was mentioned today, the keynote that somewhere around 15% of IT spend is in cloud today, which leaves 85% of it on premises. So what do we do about that? >> Yeah, that's a great question. So, I think, I like to get small wins. So find a very big pain point for that customer. How can we start to get them some small wins and start that flywheel effect going of like you saved money here, now, can we reinvest and start to show some wins, but we've engaged in projects where we've completely rewritten a whole application stack that was the core service for a business in a year and a half, and we took them from a run rate of somewhere between 40 and $60,000 a month. Had they been running that in AWS, they were running it in a data center today. So that was our estimate to less than $5,000 a month to run that application on a serverless platform inside of AWS. >> So when you talk about modernizing an application environment, that's typically not thought of as low hanging fruit. So does that mean that all the low hanging fruit has been consumed? Are all the net new things that are developed in a cloud native format, have they already been done? Is this the only frontier for opportunity now? >> No, it's not the only frontier. I mean, there's a lot of customers that are still just trying to get into the cloud. >> Lots of applications out there? >> Yeah, and you look at things like mainframe as well. That's I think a coming area where customers are finally starting to say, "Enough with the mainframe, we saw it in the keynote today of a new sort of service offering around helping customers rationalize how to do, to start to do things with the mainframe." So, but sometimes you can get those easy wins. Like we find a scalability issue. And we can inject scalability and pull back costs very rapidly. 'Cause you run in that scenario, there provision for max capacity that may happen 10% of the year. Now they're vastly overpaying. So we can still get some easy wins with slight tweaks to the platform while we help them rationalize those longer built times. I think the other thing we're starting to see is a shift in CIOs that are coming more from a software background too. That aren't from the pure infrastructure background and as we see those software dBase CIO start to come in. They're starting to understand the game that can be had of making the investment in the software and those upgrades to the software. >> And their tenure is elongating 'cause, CIO career is over was the joke. Now you're losing CIO, is cause they're going onto a bigger and better. They getting more options. I mean, they're becoming rockstars again. I want to ask you just as a side about that mainframe compatible runtime that they announced 'cause it sounds like you've got some experience in converting mainframe. >> Yeah. >> 'Cause I've always been a skeptic. We've seen this movie before where people have to freeze code, they've got to freeze code for 18 months. It takes 24 months, but now it's cloud, Adam Selipsky said, we can cut migration time, which is critical here by two-thirds 'cause that's the key. If you can reduce the time of which you have to freeze the code or maybe not even freeze the code. Again, I'm a skeptic, but what are you seeing with practical experience? >> So at PwC, we're seeing a lot of customers, start down this path and the ROI is pretty amazing when once you get in and you really start to dig in of what it can be if to go down this path. And there's a lot of tools out there, there's a gentleman on our team that's a real genius with this and he's helped multiple customers go down this path. There's tools that can start to do code conversion for you. I mean, we all get a little skeptical on those things cause we never know what the machine is going to try to make the code look like, but it's the starting point. But there is more. >> Like a prewash? >> Yeah, (Dave laughs) there's more and more design patterns coming out to help us down those pathways. But it goes back to agility for the business cause a lot of these customers running mainframes today are looking at a six month release cycle if they want to make any changes to their environment. If we can get them into an agile mindset to a microservice, they can get to two weeks or less for release cycles. So it's a big win for the company overall. Yes, there's a risk, but I think you can take, you can try to de-risk it as much as you can, you don't take the core, the absolute core critical piece of that mainframe. You start to pick away around the edges and you get comfortable with what you're doing. >> And going back to the concept of ROI, specifically in the mainframe space, there have been some not so subtle nudges from the marketplace that changed the dynamics associated with staying on your mainframe. Because if I tell you that the tax to stay on your mainframe is going to triple or quadruple over the next several years, that changes the balance. So you have the old guard in the software business who will remain nameless, jacking up the prices because they feel like, you know what, "What are you going to do? What are you going to do other than write me a cheque?" And the answer is, "Well move," right?. >> Yep, it's reached a point like the companies are moving. And what I think companies start to see too is, when we talk about purpose-driven databases, Adam was talking about that in the keynote today too. And we've seen that with customers when we've done builds, what's the right database for this data? And now you can start to get things moving even faster. And you unleash new ways of thinking. And I mean, some of the vendors are doing things like that and the companies aren't happy about it. >> Well, yes, but look, you're talking about Oracle in particular. (group chattering) That's one of them, but Oracle invests in its database and it's two different theories. Adam, today's the right tool for the right job, API and primitives and Oracle takes the kind of Swiss army knife approach. But they do invest if you have hard core mission critical, recovery is everything. There's a risk factor involved there, but if you want to go fast and you're a developer, you're not going to necessarily knock on Oracle's door, you're going to go to get an AWS. But it gets to my question, having done a lot of TCO analysis, it used to be labor, was always two-thirds of the cost. Now with automation, especially in Oracle environments, software license costs are the dominant component and it's maybe less true for SQL server, certainly true for Db2. I remember the early days of the flash, we used to tell customers, install flash. You're going to be able to consolidate, reduce your Oracle licenses when they come up. So that was a preferred strategy, but what are you seeing in terms of the ability? First of all is that a correct premise that software licenses is still a big component or an increasingly large component, and how do you unshackle from that? >> Yeah, so definitely software licensing costs for the OSS and for the databases are huge. I mean, there's numbers out there that like for SQL server enterprise, if you can get somebody off the SQL server enterprise and get them to an open solution like Aurora Postgres or something like that, it's a 90% ROI, and the numbers are similar for Oracle. And I talked to a lot of customers are like, "But we don't know Postgres," but it's not really that different. It's still data modeling. And when you get to these managed services platforms like RDS and Aurora, you free up those DBS to do the higher value things. The ROI of a DBA is not managing memory and desk and babysitting the servers, it's helping the developers build better data models. And those sorts of things that are higher value. So it is a big thing and we're seeing customers saying like, "Help us reduce this licensing cost," and help us be more efficient because the open platforms now, especially in the relational database area, are on par in a lot of ways with the Oracles and the SQL servers. So then you start to say, "Well, what am I gaining by paying and being sort of held hostage to these numbers?" So we definitely see customers making this transition. >> I mean, the point about Postgres is a good one because you're going to get enterprise class recoverability but even EDB would say okay, don't start with your mission critical core, pick around the edges just what he's saying over and over time, you're going to become more cloud native and get to the point, can you get to that point where everything's cloud native, everything is a service, maybe not a 100%, but a large part of your application portfolio can get there, right? >> Yeah, you're going to find those, that goes back to doing that application tiering and evaluation and ROI. So, we have a case study that we did with Constellation Brands, where they really needed a B2B type ordering portal solution. And they looked at sort of the typical vendors in a packaged solution if you will, a cottage type solution. And we proposed doing a full custom solution, soup to nuts and building it natively in AWS. And it was built completely on top of platform services. There was no servers in that environment and we were done. We were using AWS Fargate to run their containers on top of, we were using RDS Postgres, we were using Lambda and in some places we were using DynamoDB for holding inflate orders. And so the whole environment is deployable from one cloud formation template. So it completely changed how we even went through the testing of the thing. 'Cause you ran the same cloud formation template to deploy to a different environment. And you knew you were getting the same exact thing. And so they went from, they no longer had to worry about securing underlying compute, secure the containers, run on top of Fargate, use a platform service for your databases, and it was a beautiful solution for them. >> Yeah, you got to taste of that and your eyes open up and say, "Wow, what's possible?" >> Yeah, its a game changer. >> We heard that from NASDAQ this morning. An amazing story. She said, our first Amazon bill was 20 bucks. I bet it's higher now, but first hits free kind of thing. But the point is when people talk about the AWS bill, et cetera, no question, you should try to optimize that. But at the end of the day, it's about the business value Scott, isn't it? >> Scott: Yeah, it is. >> Hey, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE. It was great perspectives, >> No, thank you guys. I appreciate having you guys on. >> Thank you very much. >> Keep it right there, Dave Nicholson and I will be right back. You're watching theCUBE's coverage of AWS re:Invent 2021. (gentle music)

(upbeat music) >> From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of Postgres vision 2021 brought to you by EDB. >> Hello everybody. Welcome back to Postgres Vision 21. My name is Dave Vellante and we're super excited to have Josh Berkus on. He's joining us, he's a leader in the Kubernetes community, extremely well-versed in containerized applications, application development, containerizing databases all things Open-source, CUBE alum, Josh Berkus welcome back to theCUBE. Great to see you again. >> Thank you. I'm glad to be here. >> Just recently, you're coming off KuberCon, we heard some of the themes from that event. There was a lot of focus on inclusion and diversity, which of course, you know, that's the Open-source ethos and a lot of discussion around designing security in, the whole conversation about shift left. That's great to see larger companies giving back, to obviously a lot of the pressure over the years on the big companies that there's a one-way street, they're actually giving back, making some investments. So we love to see that. And just Open-source continues to be the main spring of innovation. I got to say, I got to call-out and a recent Red Hat survey the state of the enterprise Open-source in 2021, 90% of technology leaders said that they're adopting Open-source and made a joke that the other 10% they're doing it they just don't know it. But so what were some of your takeaways from the event and some of the trends you're seeing but specifically as it relates to containers. >> So, I mean, you're right, one thing is this sort of return to security, the security topic again because we've had like a couple of things happen. One was, when we initially got, started doing containers or platform with Docker and with early Kubernetes and that sort of thing we got a lot of container image scan, right? So you have like Clare and Docker has a scanning thing and Amazon and Azure have their own scanning things. And people felt that was kind of good enough for a while but then we both had the solar winds hack. And the thing is like, in the meantime, we've gone from a stage where people were mostly using Kubernetes in dev to people using Kubernetes in production. And there's a lot of extra security issues and vulnerabilities that come up in an actual production environment that people just didn't necessarily think about before. And so now we're looking at adding more pieces to the security stack and making those more standard for everyone who uses Kubernetes. And I've had the chance to work with the StackRox folks since they became part of Red Hat. So it's been very exciting to look at the whole thing and look at things like container supply chain because the solar winds showed us obviously, it's not enough to necessarily just trust the vendor. You need to trust their whole supply chain. And it helps to be able to examine that supply chain. >> Yeah, it's very scary when you look at that you're absolutely right. Multiple components of malware coming into an organization through the supply chain cell forming, different signatures. And so it's great to see the community spending time on that and an emphasis on that. Now I got to cut right to the chase here, in 2018, you wrote a two-part blog series it's called Should I run Postgres in Kubernetes? Obviously it's highly relevant for this community. So I want to talk about your perspective, well, first of all, the thing I love about you is you're tactical and you can go deep, but at the same time, you can speak to a business audience. >> Thanks. >> You're welcome and thank you for writing this and communicating the way you do, but talk about when it makes sense and when it doesn't, I mean, that's kind of... My big three takeaways on the pros were simplify, simplify, simplify, especially if you're running application components and other services on Kubernetes but give us the update three years later, why should you, why shouldn't? >> You know let's actually, why don't we zoom out to an even bigger picture? Which is just honestly like every new platform that we've got, right? So when virtualization and VMware became a thing we had the same sort of decisions about when do I move my database to this, when AWS and the public cloud became a thing. I could have like, like if I had written that 12 years ago I could have written it about AWS and it would have had a lot of the same decision tree 'cause what it really sort of comes down to is the more commodifiable a particular database instance is the better candidate it is to move to an advanced infrastructure platform, and the most advanced, currently being Kubernetes. To the extent that you can describe this particular database, what it does, who needs to use it, what's in it in and a simple one pager then that's probably a really good candidate for hosting on Kubernetes. Whereas if you have a database where it's like, Hey, the entire company uses it and it's so complicated we can't describe it's inputs and outputs. That's possibly the last thing in your company that you're going to migrate to Kubernetes, because both in terms of there's less gain to be made there, because the real advantage of moving stuff to Kubernetes is your ability to automate things. The whole way I got into Kubernetes in the first place was I started out way down the line not using containers at all. I was just looking to solve the problem of how do we automate Postgres high availability. That's what I was looking for. And it started out with something I built using SaltStack called handy rep, that Casey and I built. And mostly that was a problem discovery exercise, we discovered what the hard problems were there. And then we moved from that, and then we moved from that to Docker because containers offered an encapsulation strategy because one of the problems you run into when automating high availability is the database actually down or not. And so the first thing that containers offered us was not packaging, what people usually talk about but instead of encapsulation, right, because it's a lot easier to determine is the container running or not, than is the database down or not? Because an actual Postgres database has multiple components and multiple processes that make it up. And some of those can be down without the others being down which can then make you think a database is down that's not actually shut down. And being able to put that in a container, it gives me more of a binary up or down. And then from there, I got into, okay, well but I need to automate a lot of other components. I need to automate the storage and everything else. And that led to Kubernetes. And so if you look at it in terms of deciding when you're going to migrate the database to Kubernetes you look at, can I take advantage of that automation? Is this something that my application workflow and my team organization allows me to do? And if the answer is yes, particularly, if you're in a company that's doing the full dev ops thing where you have a unified development and infra team that owns the entire stack then those people are going to be a really good candidate for moving that stack to Kubernetes. >> Got it. Okay, so let me ask you, in database especially in critical apps, your recovery's everything, when something goes wrong, you got to recover. So if I understand it correctly, just in reading and listening to you, if you've got Kubernetes expertise and you're building applications in that environment then the application components are in there. And am I inferring correctly that you're going to be able to automate and facilitate high quality recovery with certainty? >> Yeah, there's a bunch of infrastructure involved, and this is why, what enterprises do is they move things like the web front-end to Kubernetes first and is what they should do, right? That is absolutely the right order of things to do because the minute that you're looking at bringing databases in, you're now looking at your whole storage infrastructure. So that direct attack storage that was attached physically to one machine is not going to work once you've moved to a container-based cloud. You suddenly need a way to be able to attach that storage to any of the nodes in your cluster so that you can move the database around and you can have fail-over. But once you build those things up, you can't. I mean, some of the stuff that I've done, I work in the office of the CTO now at Red Hat. So I'm not in production support. So the only Postgres instance I'm supporting are ones for some Open-source projects we support like the Python project. And in those cases, it's not a high criticality database, but I'm not support, I'm not on call on the weekend. I want something where it doesn't require need to be on call in order for it to stay up. And so putting that on open shift with the Patroni fail-over driver was the answer for that. And it has failed over in the Red Hat IT team contacts me and says, "Hey, we need to move those servers. And then we'll just add a node to the cluster and delete the old node and it'll do the right thing." And I don't have to worry about it, which is really what you're going for there. >> The other thing I took away from your writing was that you suggested that a lot of the successes in areas where the Postgres databases were rather small and there were a lots of them. And so to the extent that you can automate that you're going to save yourself a lot of problems. Whereas in the flip side if you're running extremely large databases or there may be performance constraint that might be an area to be a little bit more circumspect. >> Yeah and that's absolutely true because like the other side of this, like I've worked with the dev ops people and the people who are on Heroku and that sort of thing that have one database per application, right. And those people are great candidates for migrating. But then I've also worked with the people who have a one big database for the company, where the database is three terabytes in size, it powers their reporting system and their customer's system and the web portal and everything else in one database. That's the one that's really going to be a hard call and that you might in fact, never physically migrate to Kubernetes because even if it's on Kubernetes you are going to mess with the hardware policy to give it its own dedicated machine. So in that case, what I would honestly tend to do is there's a feature in Kubernetes called service catalog that allows you to expose an external service within Kubernetes as if it were a Kubernetes service. And that's what I tend to do with those kinds of databases because it's, there's not a huge advantage in actually physically moving the database to a container. There's a bunch of steps involved and going via service catalog is a lot easier. >> But essentially you're you're speaking the same language in that example that you just gave. >> Yeah. >> Now, the other thing you pointed out at the time that you wrote this article is there's a lot of pre 1.0 kind of alpha in the Kubernetes stack and it might be prudent to if, not putting your HIPAA compliant, since it evolved. >> Yeah, if I was to update two things in the article I guess that would be one of them the other one I'll get to in a minute. So the first one is that, Kubernetes has progressed along that maturity timeline. Like we recently added the production readiness reviews as part of our feature review process. We've really improved tested adherence, so that we're not releasing with known broken tests, and a bunch of other things to make it more stable. But part of it depends on who I'm talking to because there's still degrees here. So if I'm talking to the context of the world of software then Kubernetes has reached the point of maturity that it is as stable as anything else. And if you use a release, you can assume that any sort of major issues have been worked out. The one difference with it and some other platforms people may have used is it's still young enough that backwards compatibility can be an issue. As in Kubernetes releases now three times a year, we've stepped down from four and within three releases you can find yourself needing to change API calls which means needing to refactor parts of your application. So if you compare that with some other things, like a JVM platform, when's the last time you had a major API change with a JVM platform. But you know the Kubernetes is only six years old, so that's part of that. The other thing is the question is I'm talking to the Postgres community, right? Which is within Postgres, people run the daily Postgres snapshot in production. I would not do that with Kubernetes, I would wait for release. So there's still kind of a difference there if people are coming from the Postgres community, right. Is we're used to this really extreme level of stability that we have with Postgres and Kubernetes as a much younger project isn't quite there yet. >> So that's a process, a change that you would have to be aware of if you want to take the benefits of containers with Postgres, you just have to really understand that and make that process part of your change management. >> The other thing I would say has changed is there are new opportunities in running your data warehouse, your big data databases on Kubernetes. A number of platforms, the one I'm most familiar with is Citus, because I worked with those folks that have taken advantage of Kubernetes as a deployment and management platform for their database, their big data database infrastructure, which makes sense because if you look at a lot of modern data analysis and data mining platforms that are built on top of Postgres part of how they do their work is they actually run a bunch of little Postgres instances that they federate together. And then Kubernetes becomes the tool that allows you to manage all of those little Postgres instances. So that's the sort of exception to the, should I migrate this really big database? That can be a yes, if you are migrating it to a big data platform that supports Kubernetes, then it can be a huge advantage. >> Obviously you've got the practitioner knowledge and you were working in the community. I'm wondering if you can share just thinking about sort of the motivation to move to a container environment if you're one of the Postgres folks in the audience could you share any, either anecdotal or other data on business impact, benchmarks that you've seen, some of the things that you've seen some positives there? >> If you actually look at my history when you talk about performance is one, right? And if you actually look at my history, I actually did, and for that matter of some of the folks from Percona and some of our other folks in the database field did a bunch of benchmarks of running Postgres in MySQL, on Kubernetes versus running it not on Kubernetes. And one of the advantages of containers over VMS is that there isn't any intrinsic, there's not any intrinsic sort of layer gap or virtualization that modifies your performance. In other words, if a container is using storage that's present on the node where the container is running it is using that storage through Linux. And therefore the performance is, with some caveats, performance is going to be identical to if you were running that on the host system. Now, where performance differences creep in is that you might not be able to use the same kind of storage. In that Kubernetes and containers systems in general are organized around the idea that no service is using a majority of the resources on the system, so again, if you're planning on user running a larger Postgres database that really needs all the RAM that a system has you're going to have to do a lot of tinkering with Kubernetes configuration to get the same performance, you would have a running it on a dedicated hardware now. >> Okay, but fundamentally you're saying that overhead is less with caveats, like you said, you just mentioned in the story, right? >> Yeah, well, the overhead is not any different from if you were running under the host system. So a really good example of that was, if you go back to on my lightning talking in, (indistinct) Austin, I think. I showed running a benchmark with Postgres on an AWS instance using EBS storage, both not in Kubernetes and in Kubernetes. And there was no perceptible performance difference between the two of them because it was all metered by how fast was EBS for me. >> Right, and I said less, but I should've been more specific less than say you would expect with virtualization. >> Right, and then it just comes down to a business decision, which is that if you're already on some sort of cloud storage or network storage, and again you have databases that can share hardware systems then you shouldn't really expect substantial performance differences by moving to Kubernetes. That's something that you can eliminate inside of words, but if you're going in the process going to be migrating from direct attached storage to network storage then you are going to see a performance difference but that's caused by the change in storage. Or if you're going to be moving from systems that are not shared to systems that aren't shared again you're going to see a difference from them, but it wouldn't be any different than if you did that without Kubernetes containers being involved. >> If you're using any world-class shared storage device from whatever name of big vendor, you're going to accommodate if you're racking and stacking your own flash drives or worse yet spinning disk drives that's in direct attached, that's maybe a different story, so, okay. That's good. Where would you advise people to get started with Postgres and Kubernetes? >> The nice thing is there are a number of advanced systems now, and advanced systems that are supported by the various Postgres vendors. And that can actually be a great place to get started because the systems are Open-source so you can try them out. This is, as far as I know, they're Open-source you can try them out but then if you decide you like them, you can get support. And so that would include Crunchy data. Enterprise DB has a system, and honestly, I have to admit less familiar with than the ones that Crunchy runs. StackRox is another one out of Europe that has their own system for running cloud native Postgres. And there's one I'm forgetting, and what a lot of these have to do with is taking advantage of the automation. 'Cause you can obviously can put Postgres and container play around, right? But your whole point of moving to Kubernetes in general is going to be take advantage of the automation, so you want to look at the various automation platforms and you can go ahead and do that and the one I'm most familiar with because I develop it as Patroni, is the component for automating Postgres. You do Patroni plus you do operators, it's another word that comes in here. But if you're looking at this as a business you're probably going to want something that supported or that at least there's a potential to buy support and a bunch of the different companies in the Postgres space package up these components for you into a platform. Like I know the Crunchy platform uses Patroni plus some proxy stuff, plus PG back rest plus a couple of other things to give you a sort of full automation platform for running Postgres on Kubernetes. >> Awesome, last question. Where are we in the whole container adoption, we started out kind of you've mentioned this stateless and now you're building stateful applications but still you look at the, we look at spending data with our data partners ETR and containers and container orchestration. It's it's right up there with RPA, with cloud, with AI just in terms of the attention and resource that's going in. So it's exploding. It feels like it's still early days. There's a lot of legs left, what do you see? >> Yeah, well, a lot of it is, I mean you're talking about migrating IT infrastructure, right? So where we are with Kubernetes is we have the early adopters, right? We have all the people who were at the point of building their new infrastructure when Kubernetes came out, right. And people who had major unsolved problems which is a big reason for adopting a new platform was just was no old platform for you. and so we sort of have those people and those people are already on Kubernetes and running their stuff there. And so now we're looking at the really long path of people who are not in one of those camps moving, right. And in a lot of cases, that's a matter of coinciding with other reasons why they have to look at an upgrade because even if, whether it's the gradual replacement of old applications by new ones, where you gradually all the legacy applications get offline and the new applications run in Kubernetes or sometimes it's a, "Hey we're waiting for replacement cycle." We're waiting for, we already had plans to move from on-prem to public cloud, and so we're going to move from on-prem to public cloud on Kubernetes, to make it part of the migration. And that'll be years. I still like, I have fingers into other areas, like I still know a lot of people in the nonprofit space and a lot of nonprofits just got around to adopting virtualization, right? Like they're not even at public cloud yet. I don't even talk to them about Kubernetes. There's this huge long tail in terms of adoption. The nice thing is we don't show any signs of stopping, is that one of the things that we kind of learned from earlier stuff particularly learned from our friends at OpenStack was to really really focus on the APIs, to look at who Kubernetes more as the hub of a system of an infrastructure idea with potentially unbounded growth. If you have a new concept that comes in like service mesh, service mesh is not a successor to Kubernetes. It's not an alternative to Kubernetes. It is a thing you layer on top of Kubernetes because we didn't make it exclusive. >> Right. Great, great example going back to OpenStack and thank you for bringing that in because there's lessons learned. And so Josh, we've got to leave it there. Thanks so much for coming back in theCUBE, great conversation, you're awesome. >> Okay, good to talk to you. >> All right, and thank you for watching everybody, keep it right there for more content from Postgres Vision 21. My name is Dave Vellante, you're watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> From around the globe, it's theCUBE! With digital coverage of Postgres Vision 2021, brought to you by EDB. >> Welcome back to Postgres Vision 21, where theCUBE is covering the innovations in open source trends in this new age of application development and how to leverage open source database technologies to create world-class platforms that are cost-effective and also scale. My name is Dave Vellante, and with me is Roberto Giordano, who is the End User Computing, Corporate, and Database Services Manager at Borsa Italiana, the Italian Stock Exchange. Roberto, great to have you. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks Dave, and thanks to the interview friend for the invitation. >> Okay, and we're going to dig in to the great customer story here. First, Roberto, tell us a little bit more about Borsa Italiana and your role at the organization. >> Absolutely. Well, as you mentioned, Borsa is the Italian Stock Exchange. We used to be part of the London Stock Exchange, but last month we left that group, and we joined another group called Euronext, so we are now part of another group, I would say. And right now within Euronext, Euronext provide the biggest liquidity pool in Europe, just to mention something. And basically we provide the market infrastructure to our customers across Europe and the whole world. So probably if it happens for you to buy a little of, I don't know, Ferrari for instance, probably use our infrastructure. >> So I wonder if you could talk about the key drivers in the exchange business in Italy. I don't know how closely you follow what's going on in the United States, but it's crypto madness, there's the Reddit army driving up stocks that have big short positions, and of course the regulators have to look at that, and there's a big debate going on. Well, I don't know what's it like in Italy, but what are the key drivers that are really informing the priorities for your technology strategy? >> Well, you mentioned, for instance, the stereotypical cases that are a little bit of laterally to the global markets and also to our markets as a it professional running market infrastructure is our first the goal to provide an infrastructure that is reliable and be with the lowest possible latency. So we are very focused on performance and reliability just to mention the two main drivers within our systems. >> Well, and you have end-user computing in your title and we're going to get into the database discussion, but I presumably with with COVID you had to pivot and that that piece of your job was escalated in 2020, I would imagine. And you mentioned latency which is a key factor in obviously in database access but that must've been a big challenge last year. >> Well, it was really a challenge, but basically we move just within a weekend, the wall organization working remotely. And it has been like this since February, 2020. Think about the challenge of moving almost 1000 people that used to come to the office every day to start to work remotely. And as within my team of the end user computing this was really a challenge but it was a good one at the end. We, we, we succeeded and everything work. It's fine from our perspective, no news is is a good news, you know, because normally when something doesn't work, we are on newspapers. So if you didn't heard about us it means that everything worked out just fine. >> Yeah. It's amazing, Roberto. We both in the technology business that you'll be you're a practitioner observer, but I mean if you're in the tech business most companies actually pivoted quite well. You're have always been a digital business, different. I mean, if you're a Ferrari and making cars and you can't get semiconductors, but but most technology companies actually made the transition you know, quite amazingly, let's get into the, the case study a bit of it. I wonder if you could paint a picture of your organization's infrastructure and applications what it looks like and and particularly your database infrastructure what does that look like? >> Well, we are a multi-vendor shop. So we would like to pick the right technology for for the right service. This means that my database services teams currently manage several different technology where possible that plays a big role in, in, in our portfolio. And because we, we, we currently support both the open source, fully open source version of Postgres, but also the EDB distribution in particular we prefer to use EDB distribution where we did specific functionalities that just EDB provide. And we, when we need a first class level of support that EDB in recent year was able to provide to us. >> When you say full functioning, are you talking about things like acid compliance, two phase commits? I mean, all these enterprise capabilities, is that right? Or maybe you could be >> Just too much just to mention one, for instance we recently migrated our wire intrasite availability solution using the ADB fail-over manager. That is an additional component that just it'll be provide. >> Yeah. Okay. So, so par recovery obviously is, is and so that's a solution that you to get from the EDB distro as opposed to having to build it yourself with open source tooling. >> Yeah, correct. Well, basically sterically, we used to rely on OSTP clustering from, from, from that perspective. But over the years we found that even if it's a technology that works fine, it has been around for four decades. And so on. We faced some challenges internally because within my team we don't own also the operative system layers. So we want a solution that was 100% within our control and perimeter. So just few months ago we asked the EDB EDB folks if they can provide something. And after a couple of meetings also with their pre-sales engineers, we found the the right solution for us. So we launched long story short, just a quick proof of concept to a tissue test together, again using the ADB consultancy. And, and then we, beginning of this year, we, we went live with the first mission critical service using this brand new technology, well brand new technology for us. You know, it'd be created a few years ago >> And I do have some follow-up questions but I want to understand what catalyzed the, you know what was the motivation for going with an open source database? I mean, you're, you're a great example because you have your multi-vendor so you have experienced with all of it, the full spectrum. What was it about open source database generally EDB specifically that triggered the, the choice? >> Well thanks for the question. It is, this is one of the, or one of the questions that I always, like. I think what really drove us was the right combination between easy to use, so simplicity and also good value for money. So we like to pick the right database technology for the right kind of service slash budget that the survey says and, and the open source solution for a specific service. It, it, it's, it's our, you know, first, first, first choice. So we are not going to say a company that use just one technology. We like to take the best of breed that the market can offer. In some cases, the open source and Postgres in particular is, is our choice. How involved was >> The line of business in this both the decision and the implementation? Was it kind of invisible to them, or this was really more of a technology decision based on the your interpretation of the requirements I'm interested in who was involved and how you actually got it done? >> Well, I, I think this decision was transplant for, for, for, for the business at the end of the day don't really have that kind of visibility. You know, they just provide requirements in particular in terms of performance and rehabil area, the reliability. And so, so this this is something they are not really involved about. And obviously if they, if we are in opposition to save a little bit of money everybody's at the, even the business >> No. So what did you have to do? So that makes sense to me, I figured that was the case. Who would, who were the stakeholders on your team? I mean, what kind of technical resources did you require an implementation resources? What take us through what the project if you will look like, wh how did you do it? >> Well, it's a combination of database expertise. I got the pleasure to run a team that is paid by very, very senior, very, very skilled database services professional that are able to support more than one more than what the county and also are very open to innovation and changes. Plus obviously we need also the development teams the relevant development teams on board, when you when you run this kind of transformations and it looks like also, they liked the idea to use PostgreSQL for for this specific service I got in mind. So it, it, it was quite, quite easy, not be discussion. You know. >> What was the, what was the elapsed time from from when you said, okay, we're in, you know signed the agreement we're going here you made the decision to actually getting into production. >> Well, as I mentioned, we, we, we were on we're on services and application that are really focused on high availability and performance. So generally speaking, we are not a peak organization. Also we run a business that is highly regulated. So as you know, as you can imagine we are an organization that don't have a lot of appetite for risk, you know, so generally speaking in order to run this kind of transformation is a matter of several months, I will say six nine months to have something delivered in that space. >> Okay. Well, that's, I mean, that's reasonable. I mean, if you could do it inside of a year that's I think quite good especially in the highly regulated industry. And then you mentioned kind of the fail over the high availability Cape Cape capabilities. Were there other specific EDB tools that that you utilize to sort of address the objectives? >> Yeah, absolutely. We were in particular, we used Postgres enterprise, AKA Pam. Okay. And very recently we were involved within ADB about per se specifically developing one functionality that, that that we needed back in the day. I think together with Bart these are the free EDB specific tools that, that we, that that we use right now. >> And, and I'm, I'm interested in, I want to get to the business impact and I know it's early days for you but the real motivation was to save money and simplify. I would actually, I would imagine your developers were happy because they get to use modern tooling and open source. But, but really though if your industry is bottom line, right, I mean that's really what the, the business case was all about. But I wonder if you could add some color there in terms of the business impact that you expect. And then, I mean I don't know how much visibility you have now but anything you can share with us. >> Well, thinking about the EFM implementation that the business impact the, was that in case of a failure or the DBA team that a services team is it is able to provide a solution that is within our 100% within our perimeter. So this means that we are fully accountable for it. So in a nutshell, when you run a service, the less people the less teams you have to involve the more control you can deliver. And in some, again, very critical services that is a great value. >> Okay. So, and, and where do you want to take this? I mean, how do you see w what's your, if you're thinking about your Postgres and, and generally an EDB you know, roadmap, where do you want it to go? >> Well, I stay to, to trends within within the organization, the, the, the, the the first one is about migrating more existing services to open source solution for database is going to be, is going to be prosperous. And other trends that I see within my organization is about designing applications, not really to be, to to use PostgreSQL as the base, as it does a base layer. I think both trends are more or less surroundings at the same state right now. >> Yeah. A lot of the audience members at Postgres vision 21 is just like you they they're managing day-to-day infrastructure. They're there they're expert practitioners. What advice would you give to somebody that is thinking about, you know taking this journey, maybe if you had to do something over again maybe what would you do differently? How can you help your peers here? >> Well, I think in particular, if you are going to say a big organization that runs a highly regulated business in some cases, you are a little bit afraid of open source because there is this, I can say general consideration about the lack of enterprise level support. I would like to say that it is just about the past because they're around bunch of companies like EDB that are we're a hundred percent capable of providing enterprise level of support, even on, on, on even on the open source distribution of Paul's presser. Obviously Dan is you're going to go with their specific distribution. The level of support is going to be even more accurate but as we know, it could be currently is they across say main contributor of the pollsters community. And I think is, is that an insurance for every organization? >> Your advice is don't be afraid. >> Yeah. My advice is done is absolutely, don't be, don't be afraid. And if, if, if I can, if we can mention about also about, you know, the cloud called technologies this is also another, another topic where if possible I would like to suggest to not being afraid EDB as every every I would say organization within the it industry is really pushing for it. And I think for a very, for, for a lot of cases not all of them, but a lot of cases, there is a great value about the design services application to be cloud native or migrating existing application into the cloud. >> Okay. But, but being a highly regulated industry and being a, you know, very much aware of the the narrative around open source, et cetera, you, you must've had just a little piece of your mind saying, okay I have to manage this risk. So there's anything specifically you did with managing the risks that you would advise? Was it, was it or is it really just about good change management? >> I think it was mainly about a good change management when you got, you know the relevant stakeholders that you need on board and we are, everybody's going the same direction. That basically is about executing. >> Excellent. Well, Roberto, I really appreciate your time and your knowledge that you share with the audience. So thanks so much for coming on the cube. >> Thank you, Dave. It was a great pleasure. >> And thank you for watching the cubes continuous coverage of Postgres vision 21. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> For years, the database market was steady, and steadily boring. As virtualization went mainstream, organizations began to rethink their database strategies and ask questions like, "should I run Postgres and VMware?" Now implicit in that question was another drill down question. In other words, can VMware itself handle my critical applications and is PostGres the right solution to optimize my infrastructure estate. Now history has shown that was both a safe and good bet for organizations looking to leverage open source innovation and lower their costs. At the same time, new workloads were emerging that were pushing the boundaries of existing relational database technologies, that were designed primarily for transactional workloads. So-called systems of engagement and systems of analytics we're growing at rates much faster than traditional OLTP workloads. Once again, people ask the question, should I think about running these new workloads on Postgres? Now the answer came from the community response that saw the need to extend the open source platform to handle these emerging workloads. The database market suddenly got really interesting as these new applications emerged. Multiple data sources were combined and analyzed to interpret sentiment from social media and get consumers to buy something before they moved to another website, triangulate data to fight fraud, predict weather patterns, and short drug provenance, and dozens of other use cases. Then when cloud went mainstream, similar questions were asked about Postgres. And once again, the open source community responded to accommodate and extend the platform for the cloud. And now Kubernetes is all the rage. When should I run Postgres and Kubernetes, similar theme right? Open source, community, innovation, lowering license costs, minimizing lock-in, maximizing optionality, avoiding too much database sprawl, confidence to support new workloads. These are the factors that customers tell us they use generally to choose a database, and PostGrest specifically. In reality, it's usually pretty obvious what the right strategic fit is for a platform, but buyers want to make sure they have headroom for innovation. They do want to push the envelope on new data types while at the same time managing their risks. And that's where Postgres and the Postgres community in my view has thrived. It's become the ideal solution for what I call the fat middle of workloads, that are increasingly diverse but require a cost effective and stable approach that can scale. These are some of the themes we heard in the morning keynotes from Suzette Kent, former federal CIO who laid down her knowledge on transformation, leadership, and technology modernization. And then EDB CEO Ed Boyajian gave his annual keynote address and talked about the power of data. Data, as we know is growing at a mind-bending exponential rate. It'll make the 2010s look meager by comparison. My big takeaway from his talk really were around using technology to extract value more quickly. I think this is going to become the new new metric in the industry, which basically is every industry is a data-oriented platform now. Yes, software is eating the world, data is eating software. In other words, the new KPI is how long does it take to go from idea to monetization. That is are going to become critical in my opinion, over this next decade. Ed made what I thought was a critical point, and that is you really can't easily define the future. Industries are transforming right before our eyes. And his premise was that you have to pick a data platform that can evolve in unpredictable times. Now, as I pointed out earlier, the Postgres community has stepped up to changing environments for decades. And that really was a point Boyajian hit on pretty hard. Replatforming is happening and he made a convincing argument that Postgres and EDB will be part of that future, with a significant investment in advancing Postgres with hundreds of engineers on the task. He talked about three growth vectors. First, growth in new workloads. He made the claim that around 50% of new EDB customers are deploying new applications. Second, he talked about legacy migrations as another driver, and third was cloud, both traditional compute in the cloud, but also managed services and DBaaS, database as a service. Of course, he also talked about, and there's been a lot of discussion at Vision 2021 about Kubernetes and developers. Big push there. Let me give you my thoughts on that. First, the Kubernetes community is really focused on security and has made a lot of progress in the past 24 months. I think the second point there is developers, they want simplification, and Kubernetes brings that to a greater degree. And it's maturing with more production-ready capabilities. It just some basic, blocking and tackling, like not releasing with an unstable code, (laughs) but it's still early days and the community has some work to do on things like backwards compatibility, for example. And the release cadence of Kubernetes, it's still pretty frequent, which means you got to update scripts and APIs and the like. Remember, Postgres practitioners, they're used to very high levels of stability. So you got to be a little bit careful there. You got to go experiment because you want to take advantage of containers and benefits within Postgres, but you got to make sure you have the right change management in place and you got the resources to be on top of that. The bottom line is Kubernetes is still a toddler, but it's growing up fast. And I have no doubt it will become a staple of the Postgres stack. I'll end where I started, and that's the market. It's gone from stayed and uninteresting years ago to one that one of the most dynamic sectors of IT infrastructure software. And Ed Boyajian talked about the total available market, the TAM, and the valuations that we're seeing today. The market's enormous. I mean, if you just think about traditional database, it's probably 60 to $70 billion, but when you add in all the data and data clouds and decentralized data architectures and eventually edge computing, the market is potentially hundreds of billions of dollars in value for data platforms. So the last thing I'll say about Vision 21 is there's some great content here that spans both the business discussion and also deep practitioner material. And it's useful, has very useful how to's that both educate and inspire. So sit back and enjoy the show. This is Dave Vellante, and you're watching The Cube's continuous coverage of Postgres Vision 21 brought to you by EDB. Thanks for watching.

>> Narrator: From around the globe. It's theCUBE with digital coverage of Postgres vision 2021 brought to you by EDB. >> Welcome back to Postgres Vision 21. My name is Dave Vellante. We're thrilled to welcome Carl Olofsen to theCUBE. Carl is a research vice president at IDC focused on data management. The long-time database analyst is the technologist and market observer. Carl, good to see you again. >> Thanks Dave. Glad to be here. >> All right. Let's let's get into it. Let's talk about, let's go right to the, to the source the open source database space. You know, how, what changes have you seen over the last couple of years in that marketplace? >> Well, this is a dynamic area and it's continuing to evolve. When we first saw the initial open source products like mysQl and PostgreSQL on the early days they were very limited in terms of functionality. They were espoused largely by sort of true believers. You know, people who said everything should be open source. And we saw that mainly they were being used for what I would call rather prosaic database applications. But as time has gone by they both of these products improve. Now there's one key difference, of course, which is a mySQL is company owned open source. So the IP belongs to Oracle corporation. Whereas PostgreSQL is community open source, which means that the IP belongs to the PostgreSQL community. And that can have a big difference in terms of things like licensing and so forth, which really matters now that we're coming into the cloud space because as open-source products moving into the cloud space the revenue model is based on subscriptions. And of course they are always based on subscription to open source cause you don't charge for the license. So what you charge for its support, but in the cloud what you can do is you can set up a database service, excuse me, a database service and then you charge for that service. And if it's open source or it's not open source that actually doesn't matter to the user. If you see what that I mean because they still are paying a subscription fee for a service and they get the service. The main difference between the two types is that if you're a commercial provider of PostgreSQL like enterprise DB, you don't have control over where it goes and you don't have control over the IP and how people use it in different ways. Whereas Oracle owns mySQL so they have a lot more control and they can do things to it on their own. They don't have to consult the community. Now there's also, non-relational open source including MongoDB. And as you may be aware, MongoDB has changed their license. So that it's not possible for third party to offer Mongo DB as a complete managed database service without paying a license fee to MongoDB for that. And that's because they own the IP too. And we're going to see a lot more of this sort of thing. I have conversations with open source all the time and they are getting a little concerned that it has become possible for somebody to simply take their technology, make a lot of money off that. And no money goes back to the community. No money goes back to the IRS. It's a company it's just stays with the supplier. So I think, you know it'll be interesting to see how all this is over time. >> So you're suggesting that the Postgres model then is, is I guess I'll use the word cleaner. And so that feels like it's a it's a benefit or is it a two-edged sword kind of thing? I mean, you were saying before, you know a company controls the IP so they could do things without having to go to the community. So maybe they can do things faster. But at the other hand like you said, you get handcuffed. You think you're going to be able to get a, you know a managed service, but then all of a sudden you're not and the rules change midstream saying it, am I correct? That Postgres, the model is cleaner for the customer? >> Well, you know, I mean, a lot of my friends who are in the open source community don't even consider company owned open source to be true open source because the IP is controlled by a company, not by a community. >> Dave: Right >> So from that perspective certainly Postgres SQL is considered, I don't know if you want to use the word cleaner or more pure or something along those lines, but also because of that the nature of community open source it can be used in many different ways. And so we see Postgres popping up all over the place sometimes partially and sometimes altogether, in other words, a service, a cloud service, we'll take a piece of Postgres and stick it on top of their own technology and offer it. And the reason they do that is they know there are a lot of developers out there who already know how to code for Postgres. So they are immediately first-class users of the service that they're offering. >> So, talk a little bit more about what you're seeing. You just mentioned a lot of different use cases. That's interesting. I didn't realize that was, that was happening. The, what are you seeing in terms of adoption in let's say the last 18, 24 months specific to Postgres? >> Yeah, we're seeing a fair amount of adoption in especially in the middle market. And of course there is rapid adoption in the tech sector. Now, why would that be? Well it's because they have armies of technologists. Who know how to program this stuff. You know, when you, you know, a lot of them will use PostgreSQL without a contract without a support contract, they'll just support themselves. And they can do that because they have the technicians who are capable of doing it. Most regular businesses can't do that. They don't have the staff so they need that support contract. And so that's where a company like enterpriseDB comes. I mentioned them only because they're the leading supplier Postgres to all their other suppliers. >> I was talking to Josh Burgers, red hat and he was, you know, he had just come off a Cubacon and he was explaining kind of what's happening in that community. Big focus of course on security and the whole, you know, so-called shift left. We were having a good discussion about, you know when does it make sense to use, you know Postgres in a container environment should you use Postgres and Kubernetes and he sort of suggested that things have rapidly evolved. There's still, you know, considerations but what are you seeing in terms of the adoption of microservices architectures containers, generally Kubernetes how has that affected the use of things like postsgres? >> So those are all different things or need to be kind of custody. >> Pick your favorite. >> They're related then. So microservices, the microservice concept is that you take an application break it up into little pieces and each one becomes a microservice that's invoked through an API. And then you have this whole structure API system that you use to drive the application and they run. They typically, they run in containers usually Kubernetes govern containers but the reason you do this and this is basically a efficiency because especially in the cloud, you want only to pay for what you use. So when you're running a microservice based application. Applications have lots of little pieces when something needs to be done, microservice fires up it does the thing that needs to be done. It goes away. You only pay for that fraction of a second that the microservice is running. Whereas in a conventional application you load this big heavyweight application. It does stop. It sets some weights with things and does more stuff and sits and waits for things. And you pay for compute for that entire period. So it's much more cost effective to use a microservices application. The thing is that microservice, the concept of microservices is based on the idea that the code is stateless but database code isn't stateless cause it has its attraction to the database which is the ultimate kind of like stateful environment right? So it's a tricky business. Most database technologies that are claimed to be container-based actually run in containers the way they run in servers. In other words, they're not microservice-based they do run in containers. And the reason they're doing that is for portability so that you can deploy them anywhere and you can move them around. But you know deploying a microservice based database is, well, it's it's a big technical project. I mean, that is hard to do. >> Right and so talk about, I mean again we're talking to Josh it was clear that that Kubernetes has evolved, you know quite rapidly at the same time there were cautions. In other words, he would say I think suggested things like, you know, there were known at one point, there were known, you know flaws and known bugs that ship the code that's been been remediated or moderated in terms of that practice but still there's there's considerations just in terms of the frequency of updates. I think he gave the example of when was the last time you know, JVM got, you know, overhauled. And so what kind of considerations should customers think about when considering them, they want the Kubernetes they want the flexibility and the agility but at the same time, if they're going to put it production, they've got to be careful, right? >> Yeah, I think you need to make sure you're using you're using functions that are well-established, you know you wouldn't want to put something into production that's new. They say, oh, here's a new, here's a new operation. Let's try that. And then, you know, you get in trouble. So you want to deal conservative that way you know, Kubernetes is open-source so and the updates and the testing and all that follows a rather slow formal process, you know from the time that the submission comes in to the time that it goes out, whereas you mentioned JVMs JV, but it was owned by Oracle. And so JVMs are managed like products. Now there's a whole sort of legal thing I don't want to get into it as to whether it's legal. They claim it's not libero third parties to build JVMs without paying a licensing. I don't want to talk about that, but it's based on a very state that has a very stable base, you know whereas this area of Kubernetes and govern containers is still rapidly evolving but this is like any technology, right? I mean, when you, if you're going to commit your enterprise to functions that run on an emerging technology then you are accepting some risk. You know, that there's no question about it. >> So we talked about the cloud earlier and the whole trend toward managed services. I mean, how does that specifically apply to Postgres? You can kind of imagine like a sidecar, a little bit of Postgres mixed in with, you know, other services. So what do you see and what do you, what's your telescope say in terms of the the Postgres adoption cloud? How do you see that progressing? >> I think there's a lot of potential. There's a lot of potential there. I think we are nowhere near the option that it should be able to achieve. I say that because for one thing, even though we analyze the future at IDC, that doesn't mean we actually know the future. So I can't say what its adoption will be but I can say that there's a lot of potential there. There's a tremendous number of Postgres developers out there. So there's a huge potential for adoption. And especially in cloud adoption, the main thing that would help that is independent. And I know that enterpriseDB has one independent a managed cloud service. So I think they do. >> Yeah I think so. >> But you know, why do I say that? I say that because alternatives these days there are some small companies that maybe they'll survive and maybe they won't, but that, you know, do you want to get involved with them or the cloud platform providers, but if you use their Postgres you're locked into that cloud platform. You know, if you use Amazon, go press on RDS, right? You're not, you become quickly locked in because you're starting using all the AWS tools that surround it to build and manage your application. And then you can't move. If you see what I mean. >> Dave: Yeah . >> They have have an RDS labor Aurora, and this is actually one of the things that it's really just a thin layer of Postgres interaction code underneath Aurora is their own product. so that's an even deeper level of commitment. >> So what has to happen for, so obviously cloud, you know, big trend. So the Postgres community then adopts the code base for the cloud. Obviously EDB has, you know hundreds of developers contributing to that, but so what does that mean to be able to run in the cloud? Is that making it cloud native? Is that extensions? Is it, you know, what technically has to occur and what has occurred and how mature is it? >> Well, so smaller user organizations are able to migrate fairly quickly cloud because most of their applications are you know, commercially purchased. They're like factories applications. When they move to the cloud, they get the SAS one and often the SAS equivalent runs on Postgres. So that's just fine. Larger enterprises are a real mess. If you've ever been in a large enterprise data center you know what I'm talking about? It's just, there's just servers and storage everywhere. There's, all these applications, databases connections. They are not moving to the cloud anytime soon. But what they are doing is setting up things like private cloud environments and applying in there. And this is a place where if you're thinking about moving to something like a Postgres you know most of these enterprises use the big commercial databases. Oracle SQLserver DB two and so forth. If you're thinking of moving from that to a a PostgreSQL development say, then the smart thing to do would be first to do all your work in the private cloud where you'd have complete control over the environment. It also makes sense still to have a commercial support contract from a vendor that you trust, because I've said this again, unless you are, you know, Cisco or somebody, you know, some super tech company that's got all the technicians you need to do the work. You really don't want to take on that level of risk. If you see that, I mean. Another advantage to working with a supplier, a support supplier, especially if you have a close, intimate relationship is they will speed your security patches on a regular basis which is really important these days, because data security is as you know, a growing concern all over the place. >> So let's stay on the skillsets for a minute. Where do you see the gaps within enterprises? What kind of expertise you mentioned, you know support contracts, what are the types of things that a customer should look for in terms of the the expertise to apply to supporting Postgres databases? >> Well, obviously you want them to do the basics that any software company does, right? You want them to provide you with regular updates and binary form that you can load and, you know test and run. You want to have the you know, 24 hour hotline you know, telephone support, all that kind of thing. I think it's also important to have a solid ability on the part of the vendor that you're working with to provide you with advice and counseling as you, especially, if you're migrating from another technology, help your people convert from what they were using to what they're going to be using. So those are all aspects that I would look for in a vendor for supporting a product like PostgreSQL. >> When you think about the migration to the cloud, you know of course Amazon talks a lot about cloud migration. They have a lot of tooling associated with that. >> Carl: Right. >> But when you step back and look at it it did to a point earlier, I mean a lot of the hardcore mission, critical stuff isn't going to move it, hasn't moved, but a lot of the fat middle, you know, is, are good candidates for it. >> Carl: Right. >> How do you think about that? And how do you look at that? I mean, obviously Oracle is trying to shove everything into OCI and they're, you know, they're all in because they realized that could make a lot of money doing that. But what do you, what are the sort of parameters that we should think about when considering that kind of migration, moving a legacy database into the cloud? >> Well, it has to be done piecemeal. You're not going to be able to do it all at once. You know, if you have hundreds of applications, you're not just you don't even want to, you know, it's a good time to take you into it. And what you've got running, ask yourself are these applications really serving the business interests today and will they in the future or is this a good time to maybe consider something else? Even if you have a packaged application, there might be one that is more aligned with your future goals. So it's important to do that. Look at your data integration, try to simplify it. You know, most data integration that most companies has done piecemeal project by project. They don't reference each other. So you have this chaos of ETL jobs and transformation rules and things like that that are just, you know, even difficult to manage. Now, just forget about any kind of migration or transformation considerations, just trying to run it now is becoming increasingly difficult. You know, maybe you want to change your strategy for doing data integration. Maybe you want to consolidate you want to put more data in one database. I'm not an advocate of the idea that you can put all application data in one database by the way, we know from bitter experience that doesn't work, but we can be rational about the kinds of databases that we use and how they sit together. >> Well, I mean, you've been following this for a long time and you saw the sort of rise and fall of the big data meme. And you know, this idea that you can shove everything into a single place, have a single version of the truth. It's like, it's just never seemed to happen. >> Carl: Right. >> So, you know, Postgres has been around a long time. It's evolved. I mean, I remember when, you know, VMware's ascendancy and people are like, okay, should I, you know should I virtualize my Postgres database is your, you know similar conversations that we were having earlier about Kubernetes. You've seen the move to the cloud. We're going to have this conversation about the edge at some point in time. So what's your outlook for Postgres, the Postgres community and, you know database market overall? >> Well, I really think the future for database growth is in the cloud. That's what all the data we're looking at and the case that's what our recent surveys indicate. As I said before, the rate of change depends on the size of the enterprise. Smaller advices are moving rapidly, large enterprises much more slowly and cautiously for the very simple reason that it's a very complex proposition. And also in some cases, they're wondering if they can move certain data or will they be violating your some sort of regulatory constraint or contractual issue. So they need to deal with those things too. That's why the private cloud is the perfect place to get started and get technology all lined up storing your data center is still under your control no legal issues there, but you can start, you know converting your applications to micro-service architected applications running in containers. You can start replacing your database servers with ones that can run in a container environment and maybe in the future, maybe hope that in the future, some of those will actually also be able to run as microservices. I don't think it's impossible but it just involves programming the database server in a very different way than we've done in the past. But you do those things. You can do those things under your own control over time in your own dataset. And then you reach a point where you want to take the elements of your application environment and say, what pieces of this, can I move to the cloud without creating disruption and issues regarding things like data egress and latency from cloud to data center and that kind of thing. And prepare for that. And then you're doing the step wise and then you start converting in a stepwise manner. I think ultimately it just makes so much sense to be in the cloud that the cloud vendors have economies of scale. They can deploy large numbers of servers and storage systems to satisfy the needs of large numbers of customers and create, you know great considerable savings. Some of which of course becomes their profit which is what's due to them. And some of that comes back to the users. So that's what I expect. We're going to see. And oh gosh, I would say that starting from about three years from now the larger enterprises start making their move and then you'll really start to see changes in the numbers in terms of cloud and cloud revenue. >> Great stuff, Carl, thank you for that. So any cool research you're working on lately, how you're spending your your work time, anything you want to plug? >> Well, working a lot on just as these questions, you know cloud migration is a hot topic, another which is really sort of off the subject. And what we've been talking about is graph database which I've been doing a fair amount of research into. I think that's going to be really important in the coming years and really, you know working with my colleagues in a project called the future of intelligence which looks at all the different related elements not just database, data integration but artificial intelligence, data communications and so on and so forth and how they come together to create a more intelligent enterprise. And that's a major initiative that I see. It's one of the, we call the future of initiatives. >> Great, Carls, thanks so much for coming back to theCUBE. It's great to have you, man. I appreciate it. >> Well, I enjoyed it. Now I have to do it again sometime. >> All right you got it. All right thank you everybody for watching theCUBEs. Continuous coverage of Postgres vision 21. This is Dave Vellante keep it right there. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of Postgres Vision 2021 brought to you by EDB. >> Well, hi everybody John Walls here on theCUBE and we're now welcoming Jeremy Wilmot who is the chief product officer at ACI Worldwide part of the Postgres movement, you might say or certainly benefiting from the great value that Postgres is providing a number of enterprises across the globe. Jeremy good to see you today and first off, congratulations you are the first guest I've talked to maybe in a year and a half in their office. So good for you. >> Thanks (chuckles) John that's very kind of you John and great to see you and thanks for having me here. Yeah, it's great to be in the office, it really is. I'm here in Miami in South Florida and getting some sort of normalcy back is great for all of us and I'm certainly enjoying it. So thank you before (indistinct) has been. >> I'm sure you are, yeah, congratulations on that front. First off, let's talk about ACI Worldwide for the folks in our audience who aren't familiar with the payments, your role in terms of that payment ecosystem. Tell us a little bit about ACI Worldwide. >> Sure, well, primarily we're a software company. That's ACI, we started 1975 in Omaha, Nebraska built the first debit card system and ATM system for first National Bank of Omaha and over the last 45 years, we've globalized ourselves, we have, we are delivering mission-critical real-time payment systems across the world to banks to merchants to billers, we help them meet the payment needs of their consumers and their corporates. So we process, manage digital payments, we power omni-commerce and e-commerce payments, we present and process bill payments, we manage fraud, we manage the risk all within that and as I said on a global basis 13 of the G20 countries with a leading DDA account or current account payment processing software in those countries and have been for many years. >> So, as the CPO then quite obviously in the financial space your plate is quite full these days in terms of providing for your client base. How would you characterize maybe the evolution in terms of product development that you've been through in the financial world here over the past say, three to five years, where were you back then to where you are now and what role has Postgres played in that journey? >> Sure, yeah. So, specific to the Postgres part of the ecosystem, previously five-plus years ago our previous database solution was complex, it was expensive, it was hard to change and maintain and we leveraged multiple pieces of software from multiple vendors as a result of that. So at that time we looked for an alternative that was simpler and better and we went through a very comprehensive due diligence process, we explored both open source and license models of database to support our solution and when we looked at all of the options we determined that 2ndQuadrant Postgres was the one that provided the most comprehensive solution we were looking for. It had the right mix of capabilities and performance at the right total cost of ownership that we were looking for. And in the payments world as you can imagine, you've got to to be 24/7 365. And we also required a lower cost of ownership than we had before. But we also wanted a greater flexibility and time to market that we could pass on to our customers. And then the last thing I'd say that we were looking for was a multi-deployment capability. And what I mean by that is that we would be able to use this new platform, Postgres platform in our own data centers in our own private cloud, but we could also deploy it in the public cloud, whether we would run it or whether our customers would run it. We wanted that ability to mix and match between these different deployment options. >> So you've talked about a lot of key elements here attributes in terms of availability, accessibility reliability, security obviously. Walk us through those in terms of why you think 2ndQuadrant was addressing your needs in those particular areas or any others for that matter but what it was that checked the box specifically about what Postgres was offering you as opposed to what these other possible solutions and services were that you were looking at. >> Yeah, I think, we're very focused on being able to identify what our customers need and when they're offering services to consumers and to their corporates what is it that they require that's going to enable them to win and compete. And payments industry has a lot of cost pressures within it. It has regulation, it has consumer convenience and the whole movement of digitalization that puts a lot of downward pressure on the cost space. And those who are going to win in the payment space need to be able to address that. So, that is relevant for our banks, for our merchants, for the billers. They all come under very similar regulatory pressure and market pressure and as a result, the ability to reduce dramatically in a very significant way, the total cost of ownership upon which the payment software was going to be operating that was one of the key elements that was very important to us as we made that decision. The second one I think was to enable us to be able to do what we are good at and what our customers expect us to do. And that in turn enables them to focus on their core competencies. We're a software company, we own our own IP we manage our own software for the needs of the 24/7 365 payment requirements and therefore the merchant or the biller or the bank can really focus in on the digital experience for their customers, focusing on their core competencies and what they need to do to win. That was a second key factor for us. I think the third one for us was as well speed to market. Speed to market for ourselves and being competitive to the alternative to ACI, but also more importantly a speed to market for our customers. And there are, the payment world is highly regulated requires significant certification in order to launch new services that's often the long pole in the tent. So we want to be able to get to that point as quickly as possible. And being able to have a public cloud deployment open systems capabilities that would really allow us to pass on that speed to market to those customers. So for example, an acquirer, a payment acquirer moving into a new geographical country they want to compete in they can (indistinct) on their competitors by launching minimum viable products in six to nine months that is five years ago, that could have been a 24 to 30 months endeavor for them to take on. So I, those were important considerations for us as we were choosing a longterm partner for the Postgres world and the public cloud world. >> Obviously, so you've talked a lot about your relationship with your clients and I know you have a really keen awareness of the need to ensure that trust, to ensure that reliability to ensure the collaboration. How about your relationship on the other side with EDB and in terms of all those elements so how has that evolved over a period of time and what kind of service and what kind of value do you think are you deriving from that relationship now? >> So with EDB, first of all, our journey started with 2ndQuadrant and now EDB. And we were specifically looking at the, one area was at the Bi-Directional Replication BDR that we were wanting to support with our solutions particularly in the public cloud. And that was going to enable us to replace multiple pieces of software from multiple vendors. And so we were to create that solution that was right for ACI, it was right for our customers from a functionality and agility and a cost perspective. So technologically with the non-functional requirements and the reliability, availability, serviceability aspects that we were looking for that was in partnership with 2ndQuadrant and EDB, that was a key element. I think the second piece of it is we worked really well with 2ndQuadrant EDB in terms of partnering to meet the needs of the market. It's great to have the right technology in place but then you need your partners really to be able to work with you tactically real-time in order to win in the market and make it work. And I found that they'd been a great partner for us to be able to do that and to be able to react quickly, do the right thing and really enable us to be a great partner to our customers as we deliver real-time payments, as we deliver the acquiring capabilities, as we deliver a modernization for the big banks that we work with as well. >> Now, before I let you go, I'm going to give you a two-part question here. That's always one way to squeeze a little more info (laughing) to the guest. First off advice. You've been through this transformation obviously you're very happy with all that has transpired, so your advice to others who are considering this journey. And then secondly, what can they and you do you think expect in terms of future challenges, opportunities how we might want to frame that with Postgres? Like, where are we going from here, basically? So, two parts, advice and then where do you think this is headed? >> So advice, I certainly learnings from us versus advice is number one, be very thorough in the due diligence that you do and be very clear on what you want and what are your goals that you're looking for. So from an AGI perspective, we were clear that total cost of ownership in terms of the stack that we were going to be providing to our customers. That was very important, number one number two, nonfunctional requirements. So I've talked about the mission criticality of payments 24/7 365. That was a key second piece. And then the third one, ease of deployment. I talked about that, multi-cloud deployment that we were looking for. So we were clear what we wanted and we we took our time from a due diligence point of view. It's a multi-year decision being made so it's not something specifically I think we want to rush into. In terms of looking forward and where do we go from here? Performance is critical so further up performance enhancements, ability for rapid failover availability, near 100% availability that we're looking for five-nines and above, working together with Postgres in order to make those failovers more seamless because they will happen, particularly in the real-time payments world, where we're now seeing billions of transactions happening in a week and soon that will be in a day, they will need to be able to deal with. And for all of this to happen in a public cloud environment, we, I think all understand a lot of the benefits of public cloud and we need to be able to provide this failover availability capability in the public cloud but also in a hybrid cloud environments we're in a multi-cloud environment, so we need to keep working that and make that happen that will make Postgres a payment-grade infrastructure that could power the world's real-time payments and we would love to be able to do that into the future. >> Well, Jeremy thanks for the insights, we appreciate that and once again, congratulations on getting back in that office. I know it's probably a pretty welcomed addition to your regimen now. >> Yeah, John, thank you very much and thanks to everyone who's dialed in for this and John I look forward to welcoming you in the office soon. >> Very good sir, I look forward to that as well. I'll take you up on that in Miami for sure. John Walls here on theCUBE talking with Jeremy Wilmot is the chief product officer at ACI Worldwide. part of our Postgres Vision 2021 coverage. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of Postgres Vision 2021 brought to you by EDB. >> Well, hi everybody John Walls here on theCUBE and we're now welcoming Jeremy Wilmot who is the chief product officer at ACI Worldwide part of the Postgres movement, you might say or certainly benefiting from the great value that Postgres is providing a number of enterprises across the globe. Jeremy good to see you today and first off, congratulations you are the first guest I've talked to maybe in a year and a half in their office. So good for you. >> Thanks (chuckles) John that's very kind of you John and great to see you and thanks for having me here. Yeah, it's great to be in the office, it really is. I'm here in Miami in South Florida and getting some sort of normalcy back is great for all of us and I'm certainly enjoying it. So thank you before (indistinct) has been. >> I'm sure you are, yeah, congratulations on that front. First off, let's talk about ACI Worldwide for the folks in our audience who aren't familiar with the payments, your role in terms of that payment ecosystem. Tell us a little bit about ACI Worldwide. >> Sure, well, primarily we're a software company. That's ACI, we started 1975 in Omaha, Nebraska built the first debit card system and ATM system for first National Bank of Omaha and over the last 45 years, we've globalized ourselves, we have, we are delivering mission-critical real-time payment systems across the world to banks to merchants to billers, we help them meet the payment needs of their consumers and their corporates. So we process, manage digital payments, we power omni-commerce and e-commerce payments, we present and process bill payments, we manage fraud, we manage the risk all within that and as I said on a global basis 13 of the G20 countries with a leading DDA account or current account payment processing software in those countries and have been for many years. >> So, as the CPO then quite obviously in the financial space your plate is quite full these days in terms of providing for your client base. How would you characterize maybe the evolution in terms of product development that you've been through in the financial world here over the past say, three to five years, where were you back then to where you are now and what role has Postgres played in that journey? >> Sure, yeah. So, specific to the Postgres part of the ecosystem, previously five-plus years ago our previous database solution was complex, it was expensive, it was hard to change and maintain and we leveraged multiple pieces of software from multiple vendors as a result of that. So at that time we looked for an alternative that was simpler and better and we went through a very comprehensive due diligence process, we explored both open source and license models of database to support our solution and when we looked at all of the options we determined that 2ndQuadrant Postgres was the one that provided the most comprehensive solution we were looking for. It had the right mix of capabilities and performance at the right total cost of ownership that we were looking for. And in the payments world as you can imagine, you've got to to be 24/7 365. And we also required a lower cost of ownership than we had before. But we also wanted a greater flexibility and time to market that we could pass on to our customers. And then the last thing I'd say that we were looking for was a multi-deployment capability. And what I mean by that is that we would be able to use this new platform, Postgres platform in our own data centers in our own private cloud, but we could also deploy it in the public cloud, whether we would run it or whether our customers would run it. We wanted that ability to mix and match between these different deployment options. >> So you've talked about a lot of key elements here attributes in terms of availability, accessibility reliability, security obviously. Walk us through those in terms of why you think 2ndQuadrant was addressing your needs in those particular areas or any others for that matter but what it was that checked the box specifically about what Postgres was offering you as opposed to what these other possible solutions and services were that you were looking at. >> Yeah, I think, we're very focused on being able to identify what our customers need and when they're offering services to consumers and to their corporates what is it that they require that's going to enable them to win and compete. And payments industry has a lot of cost pressures within it. It has regulation, it has consumer convenience and the whole movement of digitalization that puts a lot of downward pressure on the cost space. And those who are going to win in the payment space need to be able to address that. So, that is relevant for our banks, for our merchants, for the billers. They all come under very similar regulatory pressure and market pressure and as a result, the ability to reduce dramatically in a very significant way, the total cost of ownership upon which the payment software was going to be operating that was one of the key elements that was very important to us as we made that decision. The second one I think was to enable us to be able to do what we are good at and what our customers expect us to do. And that in turn enables them to focus on their core competencies. We're a software company, we own our own IP we manage our own software for the needs of the 24/7 365 payment requirements and therefore the merchant or the biller or the bank can really focus in on the digital experience for their customers, focusing on their core competencies and what they need to do to win. That was a second key factor for us. I think the third one for us was as well speed to market. Speed to market for ourselves and being competitive to the alternative to ACI, but also more importantly a speed to market for our customers. And there are, the payment world is highly regulated requires significant certification in order to launch new services that's often the long pole in the tent. So we want to be able to get to that point as quickly as possible. And being able to have a public cloud deployment open systems capabilities that would really allow us to pass on that speed to market to those customers. So for example, an acquirer, a payment acquirer moving into a new geographical country they want to compete in they can (indistinct) on their competitors by launching minimum viable products in six to nine months that is five years ago, that could have been a 24 to 30 months endeavor for them to take on. So I, those were important considerations for us as we were choosing a longterm partner for the Postgres world and the public cloud world. >> Obviously, so you've talked a lot about your relationship with your clients and I know you have a really keen awareness of the need to ensure that trust, to ensure that reliability to ensure the collaboration. How about your relationship on the other side with EDB and in terms of all those elements so how has that evolved over a period of time and what kind of service and what kind of value do you think are you deriving from that relationship now? >> So with EDB, first of all, our journey started with 2ndQuadrant and now EDB. And we were specifically looking at the, one area was at the Bi-Directional Replication BDR that we were wanting to support with our solutions particularly in the public cloud. And that was going to enable us to replace multiple pieces of software from multiple vendors. And so we were to create that solution that was right for ACI, it was right for our customers from a functionality and agility and a cost perspective. So technologically with the non-functional requirements and the reliability, availability, serviceability aspects that we were looking for that was in partnership with 2ndQuadrant and EDB, that was a key element. I think the second piece of it is we worked really well with 2ndQuadrant EDB in terms of partnering to meet the needs of the market. It's great to have the right technology in place but then you need your partners really to be able to work with you tactically real-time in order to win in the market and make it work. And I found that they'd been a great partner for us to be able to do that and to be able to react quickly, do the right thing and really enable us to be a great partner to our customers as we deliver real-time payments, as we deliver the acquiring capabilities, as we deliver a modernization for the big banks that we work with as well. >> Now, before I let you go, I'm going to give you a two-part question here. That's always one way to squeeze a little more info (laughing) to the guest. First off advice. You've been through this transformation obviously you're very happy with all that has transpired, so your advice to others who are considering this journey. And then secondly, what can they and you do you think expect in terms of future challenges, opportunities how we might want to frame that with Postgres? Like, where are we going from here, basically? So, two parts, advice and then where do you think this is headed? >> So advice, I certainly learnings from us versus advice is number one, be very thorough in the due diligence that you do and be very clear on what you want and what are your goals that you're looking for. So from an AGI perspective, we were clear that total cost of ownership in terms of the stack that we were going to be providing to our customers. That was very important, number one number two, nonfunctional requirements. So I've talked about the mission criticality of payments 24/7 365. That was a key second piece. And then the third one, ease of deployment. I talked about that, multi-cloud deployment that we were looking for. So we were clear what we wanted and we we took our time from a due diligence point of view. It's a multi-year decision being made so it's not something specifically I think we want to rush into. In terms of looking forward and where do we go from here? Performance is critical so further up performance enhancements, ability for rapid failover availability, near 100% availability that we're looking for five-nines and above, working together with Postgres in order to make those failovers more seamless because they will happen, particularly in the real-time payments world, where we're now seeing billions of transactions happening in a week and soon that will be in a day, they will need to be able to deal with. And for all of this to happen in a public cloud environment, we, I think all understand a lot of the benefits of public cloud and we need to be able to provide this failover availability capability in the public cloud but also in a hybrid cloud environments we're in a multi-cloud environment, so we need to keep working that and make that happen that will make Postgres a payment-grade infrastructure that could power the world's real-time payments and we would love to be able to do that into the future. >> Well, Jeremy thanks for the insights, we appreciate that and once again, congratulations on getting back in that office. I know it's probably a pretty welcomed addition to your regimen now. >> Yeah, John, thank you very much and thanks to everyone who's dialed in for this and John I look forward to welcoming you in the office soon. >> Very good sir, I look forward to that as well. I'll take you up on that in Miami for sure. John Walls here on theCUBE talking with Jeremy Wilmot is the chief product officer at ACI Worldwide. part of our Postgres Vision 2021 coverage. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is braking analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Database is the heart of enterprise computing. The market is both exploding and it's evolving. The major force is transforming the space include Cloud and data, of course, but also new workloads, advanced memory and IO capabilities, new processor types, a massive push towards simplicity, new data sharing and governance models, and a spate of venture investment. Snowflake stands out as the gold standard for operational excellence and go to market execution. The company has attracted the attention of customers, investors, and competitors and everyone from entrenched players to upstarts once in the act. Hello everyone and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we'll share our most current thinking on the database marketplace and dig into Snowflake's execution. Some of its challenges and we'll take a look at how others are making moves to solve customer problems and try to get a piece of the growing database pie. Let's look at some of the factors that are driving market momentum. First, customers want lower license costs. They want simplicity. They want to avoid database sprawl. They want to run anywhere and manage new data types. These needs often are divergent and they pull vendors and technologies in different direction. It's really hard for any one platform to accommodate every customer need. The market is large and it's growing. Gardner has it at around 60 to 65 billion with a CAGR of somewhere around 20% over the next five years. But the market, as we know it is being redefined. Traditionally, databases have served two broad use cases, OLTP or transactions and reporting like data warehouses. But a diversity of workloads and new architectures and innovations have given rise to a number of new types of databases to accommodate all these diverse customer needs. Many billions have been spent over the last several years in venture money and it continues to pour in. Let me just give you some examples. Snowflake prior to its IPO, raised around 1.4 billion. Redis Labs has raised more than 1/2 billion dollars so far, Cockroach Labs, more than 350 million, Couchbase, 250 million, SingleStore formerly MemSQL, 238 million, Yellowbrick Data, 173 million. And if you stretch the definition of database a little bit to including low-code or no-code, Airtable has raised more than 600 million. And that's by no means a complete list. Now, why is all this investment happening? Well, in a large part, it's due to the TAM. The TAM is huge and it's growing and it's being redefined. Just how big is this market? Let's take a look at a chart that we've shown previously. We use this chart to Snowflakes TAM, and it focuses mainly on the analytics piece, but we'll use it here to really underscore the market potential. So the actual database TAM is larger than this, we think. Cloud and Cloud-native technologies have changed the way we think about databases. Virtually 100% of the database players that they're are in the market have pivoted to a Cloud first strategy. And many like Snowflake, they're pretty dogmatic and have a Cloud only strategy. Databases has historically been very difficult to manage, they're really sensitive to latency. So that means they require a lot of tuning. Cloud allows you to throw virtually infinite resources on demand and attack performance problems and scale very quickly, minimizing the complexity and tuning nuances. This idea, this layer of data as a service we think of it as a staple of digital transformation. Is this layer that's forming to support things like data sharing across ecosystems and the ability to build data products or data services. It's a fundamental value proposition of Snowflake and one of the most important aspects of its offering. Snowflake tracks a metric called edges, which are external connections in its data Cloud. And it claims that 15% of its total shared connections are edges and that's growing at 33% quarter on quarter. This notion of data sharing is changing the way people think about data. We use terms like data as an asset. This is the language of the 2010s. We don't share our assets with others, do we? No, we protect them, we secure or them, we even hide them. But we absolutely don't want to share those assets but we do want to share our data. I had a conversation recently with Forrester analyst, Michelle Goetz. And we both agreed we're going to scrub data as an asset from our phrasiology. Increasingly, people are looking at sharing as a way to create, as I said, data products or data services, which can be monetized. This is an underpinning of Zhamak Dehghani's concept of a data mesh, make data discoverable, shareable and securely governed so that we can build data products and data services that can be monetized. This is where the TAM just explodes and the market is redefining. And we think is in the hundreds of billions of dollars. Let's talk a little bit about the diversity of offerings in the marketplace. Again, databases used to be either transactional or analytic. The bottom lines and top lines. And this chart here describe those two but the types of databases, you can see the middle of mushrooms, just looking at this list, blockchain is of course a specialized type of database and it's also finding its way into other database platforms. Oracle is notable here. Document databases that support JSON and graph data stores that assist in visualizing data, inference from multiple different sources. That's is one of the ways in which adtech has taken off and been so effective. Key Value stores, log databases that are purpose-built, machine learning to enhance insights, spatial databases to help build the next generation of products, the next automobile, streaming databases to manage real time data flows and time series databases. We might've missed a few, let us know if you think we have, but this is a kind of pretty comprehensive list that is somewhat mind boggling when you think about it. And these unique requirements, they've spawned tons of innovation and companies. Here's a small subset on this logo slide. And this is by no means an exhaustive list, but you have these companies here which have been around forever like Oracle and IBM and Teradata and Microsoft, these are the kind of the tier one relational databases that have matured over the years. And they've got properties like atomicity, consistency, isolation, durability, what's known as ACID properties, ACID compliance. Some others that you may or may not be familiar with, Yellowbrick Data, we talked about them earlier. It's going after the best price, performance and analytics and optimizing to take advantage of both hybrid installations and the latest hardware innovations. SingleStore, as I said, formerly known as MemSQL is a very high end analytics and transaction database, supports mixed workloads, extremely high speeds. We're talking about trillions of rows per second that could be ingested in query. Couchbase with hybrid transactions and analytics, Redis Labs, open source, no SQL doing very well, as is Cockroach with distributed SQL, MariaDB with its managed MySQL, Mongo and document database has a lot of momentum, EDB, which supports open source Postgres. And if you stretch the definition a bit, Splunk, for log database, why not? ChaosSearch, really interesting startup that leaves data in S-3 and is going after simplifying the ELK stack, New Relic, they have a purpose-built database for application performance management and we probably could have even put Workday in the mix as it developed a specialized database for its apps. Of course, we can't forget about SAP with how not trying to pry customers off of Oracle. And then the big three Cloud players, AWS, Microsoft and Google with extremely large portfolios of database offerings. The spectrum of products in this space is very wide, with you've got AWS, which I think we're up to like 16 database offerings, all the way to Oracle, which has like one database to do everything not withstanding MySQL because it owns MySQL got that through the Sun Acquisition. And it recently, it made some innovations there around the heat wave announcement. But essentially Oracle is investing to make its database, Oracle database run any workload. While AWS takes the approach of the right tool for the right job and really focuses on the primitives for each database. A lot of ways to skin a cat in this enormous and strategic market. So let's take a look at the spending data for the names that make it into the ETR survey. Not everybody we just mentioned will be represented because they may not have quite the market presence of the ends in the survey, but ETR that capture a pretty nice mix of players. So this chart here, it's one of the favorite views that we like to share quite often. It shows the database players across the 1500 respondents in the ETR survey this past quarter and it measures their net score. That's spending momentum and is shown on the vertical axis and market share, which is the pervasiveness in the data set is on the horizontal axis. The Snowflake is notable because it's been hovering around 80% net score since the survey started picking them up. Anything above 40%, that red line there, is considered by us to be elevated. Microsoft and AWS, they also stand out because they have both market presence and they have spending velocity with their platforms. Oracle is very large but it doesn't have the spending momentum in the survey because nearly 30% of Oracle installations are spending less, whereas only 22% are spending more. Now as a caution, this survey doesn't measure dollar spent and Oracle will be skewed toward the big customers with big budgets. So you got to consider that caveat when evaluating this data. IBM is in a similar position although its market share is not keeping up with Oracle's. Google, they've got great tech especially with BigQuery and it has elevated momentum. So not a bad spot to be in although I'm sure it would like to be closer to AWS and Microsoft on the horizontal axis, so it's got some work to do there. And some of the others we mentioned earlier, like MemSQL, Couchbase. As shown MemSQL here, they're now SingleStore. Couchbase, Reddis, Mongo, MariaDB, all very solid scores on the vertical axis. Cloudera just announced that it was selling to private equity and that will hopefully give it some time to invest in this platform and get off the quarterly shot clock. MapR was acquired by HPE and it's part of HPE's Ezmeral platform, their data platform which doesn't yet have the market presence in the survey. Now, something that is interesting in looking at in Snowflakes earnings last quarter, is this laser focused on large customers. This is a hallmark of Frank Slootman and Mike Scarpelli who I know they don't have a playbook but they certainly know how to go whale hunting. So this chart isolates the data that we just showed you to the global 1000. Note that both AWS and Snowflake go up higher on the X-axis meaning large customers are spending at a faster rate for these two companies. The previous chart had an end of 161 for Snowflake, and a 77% net score. This chart shows the global 1000, in the end there for Snowflake is 48 accounts and the net score jumps to 85%. We're not going to show it here but when you isolate the ETR data, nice you can just cut it, when you isolate it on the fortune 1000, the end for Snowflake goes to 59 accounts in the data set and Snowflake jumps another 100 basis points in net score. When you cut the data by the fortune 500, the Snowflake N goes to 40 accounts and the net score jumps another 200 basis points to 88%. And when you isolate on the fortune 100 accounts is only 18 there but it's still 18, their net score jumps to 89%, almost 90%. So it's very strong confirmation that there's a proportional relationship between larger accounts and spending momentum in the ETR data set. So Snowflakes large account strategy appears to be working. And because we think Snowflake is sticky, this probably is a good sign for the future. Now we've been talking about net score, it's a key measure in the ETR data set, so we'd like to just quickly remind you what that is and use Snowflake as an example. This wheel chart shows the components of net score, that lime green is new adoptions. 29% of the customers in the ETR dataset that are new to Snowflake. That's pretty impressive. 50% of the customers are spending more, that's the forest green, 20% are flat, that's the gray, and only 1%, the pink, are spending less. And 0% zero or replacing Snowflake, no defections. What you do here to get net scores, you subtract the red from the green and you get a net score of 78%. Which is pretty sick and has been sick as in good sick and has been steady for many, many quarters. So that's how the net score methodology works. And remember, it typically takes Snowflake customers many months like six to nine months to start consuming it's services at the contracted rate. So those 29% new adoptions, they're not going to kick into high gear until next year, so that bodes well for future revenue. Now, it's worth taking a quick snapshot at Snowflakes most recent quarter, there's plenty of stuff out there that you can you can google and get a summary but let's just do a quick rundown. The company's product revenue run rate is now at 856 million they'll surpass $1 billion on a run rate basis this year. The growth is off the charts very high net revenue retention. We've explained that before with Snowflakes consumption pricing model, they have to account for retention differently than what a SaaS company. Snowflake added 27 net new $1 million accounts in the quarter and claims to have more than a hundred now. It also is just getting its act together overseas. Slootman says he's personally going to spend more time in Europe, given his belief, that the market is huge and they can disrupt it and of course he's from the continent. He was born there and lived there and gross margins expanded, do in a large part to renegotiation of its Cloud costs. Welcome back to that in a moment. Snowflake it's also moving from a product led growth company to one that's more focused on core industries. Interestingly media and entertainment is one of the largest along with financial services and it's several others. To me, this is really interesting because Disney's example that Snowflake often puts in front of its customers as a reference. And it seems to me to be a perfect example of using data and analytics to both target customers and also build so-called data products through data sharing. Snowflake has to grow its ecosystem to live up to its lofty expectations and indications are that large SIS are leaning in big time. Deloitte cross the $100 million in deal flow in the quarter. And the balance sheet's looking good. Thank you very much with $5 billion in cash. The snarks are going to focus on the losses, but this is all about growth. This is a growth story. It's about customer acquisition, it's about adoption, it's about loyalty and it's about lifetime value. Now, as I said at the IPO, and I always say this to young people, don't buy a stock at the IPO. There's probably almost always going to be better buying opportunities ahead. I'm not always right about that, but I often am. Here's a chart of Snowflake's performance since IPO. And I have to say, it's held up pretty well. It's trading above its first day close and as predicted there were better opportunities than day one but if you have to make a call from here. I mean, don't take my stock advice, do your research. Snowflake they're priced to perfection. So any disappointment is going to be met with selling. You saw that the day after they beat their earnings last quarter because their guidance in revenue growth,. Wasn't in the triple digits, it sort of moderated down to the 80% range. And they pointed, they pointed to a new storage compression feature that will lower customer costs and consequently, it's going to lower their revenue. I swear, I think that that before earnings calls, Scarpelli sits back he's okay, what kind of creative way can I introduce the dampen enthusiasm for the guidance. Now I'm not saying lower storage costs will translate into lower revenue for a period of time. But look at dropping storage prices, customers are always going to buy more, that's the way the storage market works. And stuff like did allude to that in all fairness. Let me introduce something that people in Silicon Valley are talking about, and that is the Cloud paradox for SaaS companies. And what is that? I was a clubhouse room with Martin Casado of Andreessen when I first heard about this. He wrote an article with Sarah Wang, calling it to question the merits of SaaS companies sticking with Cloud at scale. Now the basic premise is that for startups in early stages of growth, the Cloud is a no brainer for SaaS companies, but at scale, the cost of Cloud, the Cloud bill approaches 50% of the cost of revenue, it becomes an albatross that stifles operating leverage. Their conclusion ended up saying that as much as perhaps as much as the back of the napkin, they admitted that, but perhaps as much as 1/2 a trillion dollars in market cap is being vacuumed away by the hyperscalers that could go to the SaaS providers as cost savings from repatriation. And that Cloud repatriation is an inevitable path for large SaaS companies at scale. I was particularly interested in this as I had recently put on a post on the Cloud repatriation myth. I think in this instance, there's some merit to their conclusions. But I don't think it necessarily bleeds into traditional enterprise settings. But for SaaS companies, maybe service now has it right running their own data centers or maybe a hybrid approach to hedge bets and save money down the road is prudent. What caught my attention in reading through some of the Snowflake docs, like the S-1 in its most recent 10-K were comments regarding long-term purchase commitments and non-cancelable contracts with Cloud companies. And the companies S-1, for example, there was disclosure of $247 million in purchase commitments over a five plus year period. And the company's latest 10-K report, that same line item jumped to 1.8 billion. Now Snowflake is clearly managing these costs as it alluded to when its earnings call. But one has to wonder, at some point, will Snowflake follow the example of say Dropbox which Andreessen used in his blog and start managing its own IT? Or will it stick with the Cloud and negotiate hard? Snowflake certainly has the leverage. It has to be one of Amazon's best partners and customers even though it competes aggressively with Redshift but on the earnings call, CFO Scarpelli said, that Snowflake was working on a new chip technology to dramatically increase performance. What the heck does that mean? Is this Snowflake is not becoming a hardware company? So I going to have to dig into that a little bit and find out what that it means. I'm guessing, it means that it's taking advantage of ARM-based processes like graviton, which many ISVs ar allowing their software to run on that lower cost platform. Or maybe there's some deep dark in the weeds secret going on inside Snowflake, but I doubt it. We're going to leave all that for there for now and keep following this trend. So it's clear just in summary that Snowflake they're the pace setter in this new exciting world of data but there's plenty of room for others. And they still have a lot to prove. For instance, one customer in ETR, CTO round table express skepticism that Snowflake will live up to its hype because its success is going to lead to more competition from well-established established players. This is a common theme you hear it all the time. It's pretty easy to reach that conclusion. But my guess is this the exact type of narrative that fuels Slootman and sucked him back into this game of Thrones. That's it for now, everybody. Remember, these episodes they're all available as podcasts, wherever you listen. All you got to do is search braking analysis podcast and please subscribe to series. Check out ETR his website at etr.plus. We also publish a full report every week on wikinbon.com and siliconangle.com. You can get in touch with me, Email is David.vellante@siliconangle.com. You can DM me at DVelante on Twitter or comment on our LinkedIn posts. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights powered by ETR. Have a great week everybody, be well and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> From around the globe, it's theCUBE. With digital coverage of Postgres Vision 2021 brought to you by EDB. >> Well, good day, everybody. John Walls here on theCUBE. We continue our coverage here at Postgres Vision in 2021. Talking today with Andy Harris, who is the Chief Technology Officer at Osirium, a leader in the Privileged Access Management Space, and Andy, good day to you. Thanks for joining us here on theCUBE. >> Good morning to you and good afternoon, yes. >> That's right. Joining us from overseas over in England, we're on this side of the big pond, but nonetheless, we're joined by the power of Zoom. So again, thanks for the time. Andy, for those who aren't familiar who are watching about Osirium, share a little bit about your various service levels of what you provide, the kind of solutions you provide, and how you've achieved a great success in this space. >> Okay. I know these things, mine will be boring. So I'll just put a little slide up now, which is the minimum I think I can get away with which is that we're all about managing privilege. So that's privileged at the endpoint, Privileged Access Management, and Privileged Process Automation. So wherever a CIS admin has to do something on a machine that needs privilege, we like to be involved. Obviously, we like to be able to delegate all the way down to the business functions with Privileged Process Automation and with the EDB or the BDR part of that functionality in EDB that really fits in to our Privileged Access Management. So what I'll do just to take you away from our product. So I'll just quickly show you a slide of the architecture, which is as simple as we have these nodes. If you like the running ADB BDR and they can perform log-ins to a target device using privileged credentials, which we control when we might be really long up to about 128 characters. >> So Andy, if you would, I think you had put together a little show and tell you a demonstration for how when these systems are perhaps under siege if you will. That there are ways in which obviously you've developed to counter this and to be able to continue secure communications, which in the privilege assets world as you know is paramount. >> Yes, indeed. So I'll show you another slide, which gives you a kind of a overview of everything that's going on and you're going to see a little demonstration of two nodes here that has the BDL technology on and they can make these logins, and we have these characters, Bob and Allison. I've just noticed how it marks in department turn Alice to Allison. they should really be Alice because you get Bob, Alice, Carol, Dave, which are the standard encryption users. And what we're going to do is we're going to demonstrate that you can have breaks in the network. So I'm just sharing the network breaks slide. I'm showing the second network break slide. And then we have this function that we've built which we're going to demonstrate for you today, which is called evil beatings. And what it does is whilst there is a politician in the network, we are going to refresh many thousands of times the credentials on the target device. And then we're going to heal the break in the network and then prove that everything is still working. So right now, I'm going to zoom over to my live connection, terminal connections to the machine. And I'm going to run this command here, which is Python EV3. And I'm going to put a hundred cycles in it which is going to do around about 10,000 password refreshes. Okay. And I'm then going to go over to Chrome, and I should have a system here waiting for me. And in this system, you'll see that I've got the device demo and I've got this come online, SSH. And if I click on this I've got a live connection to this machine. Even whilst I have a huge number of queued up and I'll just show you the queued out connections through the admin interface. The system is working extremely hard at the moment. And in fact, if I show you this slide here, you can see that I have all of these queued credential resets and that is giving our system an awful lot of grief. Yeah. I can go back to the device connection and it is all here still top. Why not? And as you can see, it is all working perfectly. And if I was a user of EDB, I think this has to be one of the demonstrations I'd be interested in because it's one of the first things that we did when we dropped that functionality into our products. We wanted to know how well it would work under extreme conditions because you don't think of extreme conditions as normal working, but whenever you have 10 nodes in different countries, there will always be a network break somewhere and someone will always need to be refreshing passwords a ridiculous rates of knots. So Andy let's talk about this kind of the notion that you're providing here, this about accountability and visibility, audit-ability, all these insights that you're providing through this kind of demonstration you've given us how critical is that today, especially when we know there are so many possible intrusions and so many opportunities with legacy systems and new apps and all of this. I mean talking about those three pillars, if you will, the importance of that and what we just saw in terms of providing that peace of mind that everybody wants in their system. >> That's a cracking question. I'm going to enjoy that question. Legacy systems, that's a really good question. If you, we have NHS, which is our national health service and we have hospitals and you have hospitals every country has hospitals. And the equipment that they use like the MRI scanners, the electro-microscope, some of the blood analysis machines, the systems in those costs multiple Gillions of dollars or should use dollars euros, dollars, pounds and the operating systems running those systems, the lifetime of that piece of equipment is much much longer than the lifetime of an operating system. So we glibly throw around this idea of legacy systems and to a hospital that's a system that's a mere five years old and has got to be delivering for another 15 years. But in reality, all of this stuff gets, acquires vulnerabilities because our adversaries the people that want to do organizations bad things ransomware and all the rest of it they are spending all that time learning about the vulnerabilities of old systems. So the beauty of what we do is being able to take those old legacy systems and put a zero trust safety shell around them, and then use extremely long credentials which can't be cracked. And then we make sure that those credentials don't go anywhere near any workstations. But what they do do, is they're inside that ADB database encrypted with a master encryption key, and they make that jump just inside the zero trust boundary so that Bob and Alice outside can get administration connections inside for them to work. So what we're doing is providing safety for those legacy systems. We are also providing an environment for old apps to run in as well. So we have something called a map server which I didn't think you'd asked us that question. I'd have to find you some slides or presentations, which we want to do. We have a map server, which is effectively a very protected window server, and you can put your old applications on them and you can let them age gracefully and carry on running. Dot net 3.5 and all of those old things. And we can map your connection into the older application and then map those connections out. But in terms of the other aspects of it is the hospital stay open 24 hours a day banks run 24 hours a day and they need to be managed from anywhere. We're in a global pandemic, people are working from home. That means that people are working from laptops and all sorts of things that haven't been provisioned by centrality and could all have all sorts of threats and problems to them. And being able to access any time is really important. And because we are changing the credentials on these machines on a regular basis, you cannot lose one. It's absolutely critical. You cannot go around losing Windows active directory domain credentials it just can't be done. And if you have a situation where you've just updated a password and you've had a failure one of those 10 nodes has the correct set of credentials. And when the system heals, you have to work out which one of the 10 it is and the one that did it last must be the one that updates all the other 10 nodes. And I think the important thing is as Osirium we have the responsibility for doing the updates and we have the responsibility for tracking all those things. But we hand the responsibility of making sure that all the other 10 nodes are up to date which just drop it into bi-directional replication and it just happens. And you've seen it happen. I mean, might be just for the fun of it, We'll go back to that demonstration Chrome, and you can see we're still connected to that machine. That's all still running fine but we could go off to our management thing, refresh it and you see that everything there is successful. I can go to a second machine and I can make a second connection to that device. Yet, in the meantime that password has been changed, Oh, I mean, I wouldn't like to tell you how many times it's been changed. I need to be on a slightly different device. I was going to do a reveal password for you, I'll make another connection but the passwords will be typically, do a top on that just to create some more load. But the passwords will typically be... I'll come back to me. They'll typically be 128 characters long. >> Andy, if I could, I mean, 'cause I think you're really showing this very complex set of challenges that you have these days, right? In terms of providing access to multiple devices across, in multiple networking challenges, when you talk to your prospective clients about the kind of how this security perimeters changed, it's very different now than it was four or five years ago. What are the key points that you want them to take away from your discussion about how they have to think about security and access especially in this day and age when we've even seen here in the States. Some very serious intrusions that I think certainly get everybody's attention. >> That's a great question again. They're all... The way that I would answer that question would definitely depend on the continent that I was talking to. But my favorite answer will be a European answer, so I'll give you a European answer. One of the things that you're doing when you come along and provide Privileged Access Management to a traditional IT team, is your taking away the sysadmins right now, before privilege access, they will know the passwords. They will be keeping the passwords in a password vault or something like this. So they own the passwords, they own the credentials. And when you come along with a product like privilege access management you're taking over management of those credentials and you're protecting those systems from a whole wide range of threats. And one of those threats is from the system administrators themselves. And they understand that. So what I would say, it's an interesting question. 'Cause I'm like, I'm thinking I've got two ways of answering I can answer as if I'm talking to management or as if I'm talking to the people who are actually going to use the products and I feel more aligned with the, I feel more aligned with the actual users. >> Yeah, I think let's just, we'll focus on that and I'll let you know, we just have a moment or two left. So if you could maybe boil it down for me a little bit. >> Boiling it down, I would say now look here CIS admins. It's really important that you get your job done but you need to understand that those privileged accounts that you're using on those systems are absolute gold dust if they get into the hands of your adversaries and you need protections income away from those adversaries, but we trust you and we are going to get you the access to your machines as fast as possible. So we're a little bit like a nightclub bouncer but we're like the Heineken of nightclub bounces. When you arrive, we know it's you and we're going to get you to your favorite machine logged on as domain admin, as fast as possible. And while you're there, we're going to cut that session recording of you. And just keep you safe and on the right side. >> All right, I'm going to enjoy my night in the nightclub. Now I can sleep easy tonight knowing that Andy Harris and Osirium are on the case. Thanks, Andy. Andy Harris speaking with us. So the Chief Technology Officer from Osirium as part of our Postgres vision, 2021, coverage here on theCUBE. (upbeat music) >> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is theCUBE conversation.