>> TheCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back to Spain, everybody. We're here at the Theater Live and MWC 23. You're watching theCUBE's Continuous Coverage. This is day two. I'm Dave Vellante with my co-host, Dave Nicholson. Lisa Martin is also in the house. John Furrier out of our Palo Alto studio covering all the news. Check out silicon angle.com. Okay, we're going to dig into the core infrastructure here. We're going to talk a little bit about servers. Manya Rastogi is here. She's in technical marketing at Dell Technologies. And Abdel Bagegni is technical program manager at the Telecom Infra Project. Folks, welcome to theCUBE. Good to see you. >> Thank you. >> Abdel, what is the Telecom Infras Project? Explain to our audience. >> Yeah. So the Telecom Infra Project is a US based non-profit organization community that brings together different participants, suppliers, vendors, operators SI's together to accelerate the adoption of open RAN and open interface solutions across the globe. >> Okay. So that's the mission is open RAN adoption. And then how, when was it formed? Give us the background and some of the, some of the milestones so far. >> Yeah. So the telecom infra project was established five years ago from different vendor leaders and operators across the globe. And then the mission was to bring different players in to work together to accelerate the adoption of, of open RAN. Now open RAN has a lot of potential and opportunities, but in the same time there's challenges that we work together as a community to facilitate those challenges and overcome those barriers. >> And we've been covering all week just the disaggregation of the network. And you know, we've seen this movie sort of before playing out now in, in telecom. And Manya, this is obviously a compute intensive environment. We were at the Dell booth earlier this morning poking around, beautiful booth, lots of servers. Tell us what your angle is here in this marketplace. >> Yeah, so I would just like to say that Dell is kind of leading or accelerating the innovation at the telecom edge with all these ruggedized servers that we are offering. So just continuing the mission, like Abdel just mentioned for the open RAN, that's where a lot of focus will be from these servers will be, so XR 8000, it's it's going to be one of the star servers for telecom with, you know, offering various workloads. So it can be rerun, open run, multi access, edge compute. And it has all these different features with itself and the, if we, we can talk more about the performance gains, how it is based on the Intel CPUs and just try to solve the purpose like along with various vendors, the whole ecosystem solve this challenge for the open RAN. >> So Manya mentioned some of those infrastructure parts. Does and do, do you say TIP or T-I-P for short? >> Abdel: We say TIP. >> TIP. >> Abdel: T-I-P is fine as well. >> Does, does, does TIP or T-I-P have a certification process or a, or a set of guidelines that someone like Dell would either adhere to or follow to be sort of TIP certified? What does that look like? >> Yeah, of course. So what TIP does is TIP accredits what solutions that actually work in a real commercial grade environment. So what we do is we bring the different players together to come up with the most efficient optimized solution. And then it goes through a process that the community sets the, the, the criteria for and accepts. And then once this is accredited it goes into TIP exchange for other operators and the participants and the industry to adopt. So it's a well structured process and it's everything about how we orchestrate the industry to come together and set those requirements and and guidelines. Everything starts with a use case from the beginning. It's based on operators requirements, use cases and then those use cases will be translated into a solution that the industry will approve. >> So when you say operator, I can think of that sort of traditionally as the customer side of things versus the vendor side of things. Typically when organizations get together like TIP, the operator customer side is seeking a couple of things. They want perfect substitutes in all categories so that they could grind vendors down from a price perspective but they also want amazing innovation. How do you, how do you deliver both? >> Yeah, I mean that's an excellent question. We be pragmatic and we bring all players in one table to discuss. MNO's want this, vendors can provide a certain level and we bring them together and they discuss and come up with something that can be deployed today and future proof for the future. >> So I've been an enterprise technology observer for a long time and, you know, I saw the, the attempt to take network function virtualization which never really made much of an impact, but it was a it was the beginning of the enterprise players really getting into this market. And then I would see companies, whether it was Dell or HPE or Cisco, they'd take an X 86 server, put a cool name on it, edge something, and throw it over the fence and that didn't work so well. Now it's like, Manya. We're starting to get serious. You're building relationships. >> Manya: Totally. >> I mentioned we were at the Dell booth you're actually building purpose built systems now for this, this segment. Tell us what's different about this market and the products that you're developing for this market than say the commercial enterprise. >> So you are absolutely right, like, you know, kind of thinking about the journey, there has been a lot of, it has been going for a long time for all these improvements and towards going more open disaggregated and overall that kind of environment and what Dell brings together with our various partners and particularly if you talk about Intel. So these servers are powered by the players four gen intel beyond processors. And so what Intel is doing right now is providing us with great accelerators like vRAN Boost. So it increases performance like doubles what it was able to do before. And power efficiency, it has been an issue for a long, long time and it still continues but there is some improvement. For example 20% reduction overall with the power savings. So that's a step forward in that direction. And then we have done some of our like own testing as well with these servers and continuing that, you know it's not just telecom but also going towards Edge or inferencing like all these comes together not just X 30,000 but for example XR 56 10, 70, 76 20. So these are three servers which combines together to like form telecom and Edge and covers altogether. So that's what it is. >> Great, thank you. So Abdel, I mean I think generally people agree that in the fullness of time all radio access networks are going to be open, right? It's just a matter of okay, how do we get there? How do we make sure that it has the same, you know, quality of service characteristics. So where are we on on that, that journey from your perspective? And, and maybe you could project what, what it's going to look like over this decade. 'Cause it's going to take, you know, years. >> It's going to take a bit of time to mature and be a kind of a plug and play different units together. I think there was a lot, there was a, was a bit of over-promising in a few, in the last few years on the acceleration of open RAN deployment. That, well, a TIP is trying to do is trying to realize the pragmatic approach of the open run deployment. Now we know the innovation cannot happen when you have a kind of closed interfaces when you allow small players to be within the market and bring the value to, to the RAN areas. This is where the innovation happens. I think what would happen on the RAN side of things is that it would be driven by use cases and the operators. And the minute that the operators are no longer can depend on the closed interface vendors because there's use cases that fulfill that are requires some open RAN functionality, be the, the rig or the SMO layers and the different configurations of the rUSE getting the servers to the due side of things. This kind of modular scalability on this layer is when the RAN will, the Open RAN, would boost. This would happen probably, yeah. >> Go ahead. >> Yeah, it would happen in, in the next few years. Not next year or the year after but definitely something within the four to five years from now. >> I think it does feel like it's a second half of the decade and you feel like the, the the RAN intelligent controller is going to be a catalyst to actually sort of force the world into this open environment. >> Let's say that the Rick and the promises that were given to, to the sun 10 years ago, the Rick is realizing it and the closed RAN vendors are developing a lot on the Rick side more than the other parts of the, of the open RAN. So it will be a catalyst that would drive the innovation of open RAN, but only time will tell. >> And there are some naysayers, I mean I've seen some you know, very, very few, but I've seen some works that, oh the economics aren't there. It'll, it'll never get there. What, what do you, what do you say to that? That, that it won't ever, open RAN won't ever be as cost effective as you know, closed networks. >> Open RAN will open innovations that small players would have the opportunity to contribute to the, to the RAN space. This opportunity is not given to small players today. Open RAN provides this kind of opportunity and given that it's a path for innovation, then I would say that, you know, different perspectives some people are making sure that, you know the status quo is the way forward. But it would certainly put barriers on on innovation and this is not the way forward. >> Yeah. You can't protect the past in the future. My own personal opinion is, is that it doesn't have to be comparable from a, from a TCO perspective it can be close enough. It's the innovative, same thing with like you watch the, the, the adoption of Cloud. >> Exactly. >> Like cloud was more expensive it's always more expensive to rent, but people seem to be doing public Cloud, you know, because of the the innovation capabilities and the developer capabilities. Is that a fair analogy in this space, do you think? >> I mean this is what all technologies happens. >> Yeah. >> Right? It starts with a quite costly and then the the cost will start dropping down. I mean the, the cost of, of a megabyte two decades ago is probably higher than what it costly terabyte. So this is how technology evolves and it's any kind of comparison, either copper or even the old generation, the legacy generations could be a, a valid comparison. However, they need to be at a market demand for something like that. And I think the use cases today with what the industry is is looking for have that kind of opportunity to pull this kind of demand. But, but again, it needs to go work close by the what happens in the technology space, be it, you know we always talk about when we, we used to talk about 5G, there was a lot of hypes going on there. But I think once it realized in, in a pragmatic, in a in a real life situation, the minutes that governments decide to go for autonomous vehicles, then you would have limitations on the current closed RAN infrastructures and you would definitely need something to to top it up on the- >> I mean, 5G needs open RAN, I mean that's, you know not going to happen without it. >> Exactly. >> Yeah, yeah. But, but what is, but what would you say the most significant friction is between here and the open RAN nirvana? What are, what are the real hurdles that need to be overcome? There's obviously just the, I don't want to change we've been doing this the same way forever, but what what are the, what are the real, the legitimate concerns that people have when we start talking about open RAN? >> So I think from a technology perspective it will be solved. All of the tech, I mean there's smart engineers in the world today that will fix, you know these kind of problems and all of the interability, interruptability issues and, and all of that. I think it's about the mindset, the, the interfaces between the legacy core and RAN has been became more fluid today. We don't have that kind of a hard line between these kind of different aspects. We have the, the MEC coming closer to the RAN, we have the RAN coming closer to the Core, and we have the service based architectures in the Core. So these kind of things make it needs a paradigm shift between how operators that would need to tackle the open RAN space. >> Are there specific deployment requirements for open RAN that you can speak to from your perspective? >> For sure and going in this direction, like, you know evolution with the technology and how different players are coming together. Like that's something I wanted to comment from the previous question. And that's where like, you know these servers that Dell is offering right now. Specific functionality requirements, for example, it's it's a small server, it's short depth just 430 millimeters of depth and it can fit anywhere. So things like small form factor, it's it's crucial because if you, it can replace like multiple servers 10 years ago with just one server and you can place it like near a base band unit or to a cell site on top of a roof wherever. Like, you know, if it's a small company and you need this kind of 5G connection it kind of solves that challenge with this server. And then there are various things like, you know increasing thermals for example temperatures. It is classified like, you know kind of compliant with the negative 5 to 55 degree Celsius. And then we are also moving towards, for example negative 20 to 65 degree Celsius. Which is, which is kind of great because in situations where, which are out of our hands and you need specific thermals for those situations that's where it can solve that problem. >> Are those, are those statistics in those measurements different than the old NEB's standards, network equipment building standards? Or are they, are they in line with that? >> It is, it is a next step. Like so most of our servers that we have right now are negative five to five degree Celsius, for especially the extremely rugged server series and this one XR 8,000 which is focused for the, it's telecom inspired so it's focused on those customers. So we are trying to come up like go a step ahead and also like offering this additional temperatures testing and yeah compliance. So, so it is. >> Awesome. So we, I said we were at the booth early today. Looks like some good traffic people poking around at different, you know, innovations you got going. Some of the private network stuff is kind of cool. I'm like how much does that cost? I think I might like one of those, you know, but- >> [Private 5G home network. >> Right? Why not? Guys, great to have you on the show. Thanks so much for sharing. Appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> Thank you so much. >> Okay. For Dave Nicholson and Lisa Martin this is Dave Vellante, theCUBE's coverage. MWC 23 live from the Fida in Barcelona. We'll be right back. (outro music)

(upbeat electronic music) >> Announcer: From the CUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. >> Hey welcome back already, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in our Palo Alto studios today having a Cube conversation. You know nobody can really travel, conference seasons are all kind of on hold, or going to digital, so there's a lot of interesting stuff going on. But thankfully we've got the capability to invite some of our community in. We're really interested in hearing from some of the leaders that we have in the community about what's going on in their world and you know, what they're telling their people. And what can we learn. So we're excited to have a good friend of mine who went to business school together, God it seems like it was over 20 years ago. He's Ben Nelson, the chairman and CEO of the Minerva Project. Ben great to see you and welcome. >> Thanks so much, great to be here. >> Yeah. So, you have always been kind of a trailblazer, I mean way back in the day I think that you've only had like two jobs in all this time, you know. (laughing) You know kind of changing the world of digital photography. >> Yeah three or four, three or four. >> Three or four. >> Yeah. (laughing) >> And after a really long run, you made this move to start something new in education. >> Yeah. >> Education's a big hairy monster. There's a lot of angles. And you started the Minerva Project, and I can't believe I looked before we got on today that that was nine years ago. So tell us about the Minerva Project, how you got started, kind of what's the mission, and then we'll get into it. >> Yeah so Minerva exists and it sounds somewhat lofty for an organization, but we do exist to serve this mission which is to nurture critical wisdom for the sake of the world. We think a wiser world is a better world. We think that really wisdom is the core goal of education and we decided that higher education is the area that is both most in need of transformation and also one that we're most capable of influencing. And so we set about actually creating our own university demonstrating an example of what a university can do. And then, helping tool other institutions to follow in those footsteps. >> Yeah it's a really interesting take. There's often times we're told if a time traveler came here from 1776, right, and walked around and would look at the way we drive, look at the way we communicate, look at the way we transact business. All these things would be so new and novel inventive. If you walked them over to Stanford or Harvard he'd feel right at home, you know. >> Yeah. >> So the education is still kind of locked in to this way that it's always been. So for you to kind of take a new approach, I mean I guess it did take actually starting your own school to be able to execute and leverage some of these new methods and tools, versus trying to move what is a pretty, you know, kind of hard to move institutional base. >> Yeah absolutely. And it's also you know, because we have to remember that universities as an institution started before the printing press. So if you go and talk to pretty much any university president, and ask him or her what is the mission of a university, generically, forget you know your university or what have you. They'll say, "Well generically universities exist "to create and disseminate knowledge." That's why they've been founded 1000 years ago and that's why they exist today. And you know, creation of knowledge I think there's a good argument to be made that the research mission of a university is important for the advancement of society and that it needs to be supported. Certainly directly in that regard. So much of you know the innovation that we benefit from today came from university labs and research. That's an important factor. But the dissemination of knowledge is a bit of an odd thing. I guess before the printing press, sure, yeah, I mean kind of hard to disseminate knowledge except for if you gather a whole bunch of people in a room and talk at them. Maybe they scribble notes very quickly. Well that's a decent way of disseminating knowledge because they can you know, one mouth and many pieces of paper and then they can read it later or study it. I guess that makes sense it's somewhat efficient. But after the printing press and certainly after the internet, the concept of a university needing to disseminate knowledge as it's core mission seems kind of crazy. It can't be that that's what universities are for. But effectively they're still structured in that way. And I don't think any university president when actually challenged in that way would argue the point. They would say, "Oh yes of course, "well what we really need to do is teach people "how to use knowledge or evaluate knowledge "or make sure that we communicate effectively "or understand how that knowledge can interact "with other pieces of knowledge and you know, "create new ways of thinking, et cetera." But that isn't the dissemination of knowledge. And that isn't the way that universities are actually structured. >> But it's funny that you say that. Even before you get to whether they should be still trying to disseminate knowledge, they're not even using the new tools now that they had the printing press that come along. (laughing) To disseminate knowledge. You know it's really interesting as we're going through this time right now with the coronavirus and a lot of things that were kind of traditional are moving in to digital and this new tool called Zoom which never fails to amaze me how many people are having their first Zoom call ever, right. >> Right, right. >> Ever, right I mean how long ago was Skype, how long ago was WebX. These tools have been around for a really interesting time, a long time. But now, you know, kind of a critical mass of technology that anybody can flip their laptop up, or their phone and go. You know you guys just in terms of a pure kind of tools play you know took advantage of the things that are available here in 2020 and 2019. So I wonder if you can share with the folks that don't have experience kind of using remote learning and remote access, you know what are some of the lessons you learned what are some of the best practice. What should people kind of think about what's capable and the things you can do with digital tools that you can't do when you're trying to get everybody in a classroom together at the same time. >> Right, so I think first and foremost, there's kind of the nuts and bolts. The basics. Right. So one of the things that you know, education environments have always been able to get away with is when you've got everyone in a room and you know, you're kind of cutting them off from the rest of life, you sometimes don't realize that you're talking into thin air, right. That maybe speaking students are not listening, they're not absorbing what you're saying. But you know they have to show up, at least in K 12, and higher ed they don't bother showing up and so the 15 people who do wind up showing up from the 100 person lecture I guess you do you say, "Oh at least they're listening." But the reality is that when you're online, you're competing with everything. You're competing with the next tab, you're competing with just not showing up. It's so much easier to just, you know, open up some game or something, some YouTube video. And so you've got to make this engaging. And making it engaging isn't about being entertaining. And that's actually one of the major problems of assessing who is a good professor and who isn't. You know people look at student reviews, right. They say, "Oh, you know such and such "was such a great professor." But when you actually track student reviews of professors to learning outcomes, there's a slight negative correlation. Right which means that the better the students believe the professor is actually that is an indicator that they've learned a little bit less. >> Right. >> That's really bizarre, intuitively. But when you actually think about it deeply, you realize that entertaining students isn't the job of a professor. It's actually teaching them. It's actually getting them to think through the material. And learning is hard, it's not easy. So you have to bring some of those techniques of engagement into online. And you can do that but it requires a lot of interactivity. So that's aspect number one. But really the much bigger idea isn't that you just do what you do offline and then put it online, right. Technology isn't at it's best when it mimics what you do without it, right. Technology didn't build an exact replica of the horse. >> Right, right. >> And said you know, ride that. Right. It doesn't make any sense, right. Instead, what technology should do is things you cannot do offline. One of the things that worked 300, 400 years ago is that you could study a subject matter in full. One professor, one teacher could teach you pretty much everything that people needed to know in a given field. In fact, the fields themselves were collapsed, right. Science, mathematics, you know, ethics were all put under this idea called philosophy. Philosophy was everything. Right. And so there's really we didn't have much to learn. But today, because we have so much information and so many tools to be able to process through that information, what happens is that education gets atomized. And you know you go through a college education you're you know, being taught by 25, 30 some different professors. But one professor really has no idea what you've learned previously. Even when they're in a 101, 102 sequence. How many times have we been in kind of the 102 class where in the first month all the professor did was repeat what happened in the 101 class because they didn't feel comfortable that you actually learned it. Or if the professor before them taught it the way they wanted it taught. >> Right, right. >> And that's because education is done offline with no data. If you actually have education in a data rich environment you can actually design cross cutting curriculum. You can shift the professor's role from disseminating knowledge to actually having students or mentoring students and guiding them in how to apply that knowledge. And so, once you have institutional views of curricula, you can use technology to deliver an institution wide education. Not by teaching you a way of thinking or a set of content, but giving you a set of tools that broadly any professor can agree on, and then apply them to whatever context professors want to present. And that creates a much more holistic education, and it's one that only can be done using technology. >> Ben that was a mouthful. You got into all kinds of good stuff there. (laughing) So let's break some of it down. That was fascinating. I mean I think you know the asynchronous versus synchronous opportunity if you will, to as you said kind of atomize education to the creation of content right the distribution of content and more importantly the consumption of content. Because why should I have to change my day if the person I want to hear is only available next Tuesday at noon pacific, right. It makes no sense anymore. And the long tail opportunities for this content that lives out there forever is pretty interesting. But it's a very interesting you know, kind of point of view if you assume that all the knowledge is already out there and now your job as an educator is to help train people to critically think about what's out there. How do I incorporate that, what are the things I should be thinking about when I'm integrating that into my decision. It's a very different way. And as you said, everything is an alt tab away. Literally the whole world is an alt tab away from that webinar. (laughing) Very good stuff. >> Exactly right. >> And the other piece I want to get your take on is really kind of lifetime learning. And I didn't know that you guys were you know kind of applying some of your principles oh my goodness where you actually measure effectiveness of teaching. And measure how long people hang out in the class. And measure whether it's good or not. But you're applying this really now in helping companies do digital transformation. And I think, you know, coming at that approach from a shift in thinking is really a different approach. I was just looking at an Andy Jassy keynote from a couple years ago yesterday, and he talked about the A number one thing in digital transformation is a buy in at senior leadership and a top down priority. So you know, what do you see in some of your engagements, how are you applying some of this principles to help people think about change differently? >> Yeah you know I think recessions are a very telling time for corporate learning. Right. And if you notice, what is the first budget that gets cut when economic times get tough it's the you know employee learning and development. Right. Those budgets just get decimated. Right off the bat. And that's primarily because employees don't see much value out of it, and employers don't really measure the impact of those things. No one's saying, "Oh my God, 'this is such an incredible program. "My employees were able to do x before this program, 'and then they were able to do one point five x afterward." You know, if people had that kind of training program in the traditional system, then they would be multi-billion dollar behemoths in the space. And there really are not. And that's because again, most of education is done in content land. And it's usually very expensive, and the results are not very good. Instead, if you actually think about learning tools as opposed to information, and then applying those tools in your core business, all of a sudden you can actually see transformation. And so when we do executive education programs as an example, you know we ask our learner how much of what you've learned can you apply to your job tomorrow? Right. And we see an overwhelming majority of our students are saying something like more than 80 to 90% of what they learned they can apply immediately. >> Wow, that's impressive. >> That's useful. >> Right. And why do you think is it just kind of institutional stuck in the mud? Is it the wrong incentive structure? I mean why you're talking about very simple stuff right. >> Yeah. >> Why don't you actually measure outcomes and adjust accordingly, you know. Use a data centric methodology to improve things over time, you know. Use digital tools in way that they can get you more than you can do in a physical space. I mean is it just inertia? I mean I really think this is a watershed moment because now everybody is forced into using these tools. Right. And there's a lot of, you know kind of psychology around habits and habit forming. >> Right, exactly. >> And if you do something for a certain amount of time every single day you know it becomes a habit. And if these stay in place orders which in my mind I think we are going to be doing it for a while, kind of change people's behavior and the way they use technology to interact with other folks. You know it could be a real, you know, kind of turning point in everyone's opening eyes that digital is different than physical. It's not exactly the same. There are some things in physical that are just better, but, you know there's a whole realm of things in digital that you cannot do when you're bound by time, location, and space. >> Exactly right. That's right. And I think the reason that it's so difficult to shift the system is because the training of people in the system, and I'm speaking specifically about higher education, really has nothing to do with education. Think about how a university professor becomes a university professor. How do they show up in a classroom? They get a bachelor's degree, where they don't learn anything about how to teach or how the mind works. They get a PhD, in which they learn nothing about how to teach or how the mind works. They do a post-doctoral research fellowship where they research in their field, right. Then they become an associate professor or an assistant professor and non-tenure, right. And in order to get tenure they've got seven years in order to make it on a publishing track, because how they teach is irrelevant. And they don't get any formal training on how to teach or how the brain works, right. Then they become you know, a junior tenured professor. A full tenured professor, right. And then maybe they become an administrator. Right. And so if you think about it, all they know is their field. And I've had conversations with academics which are to me befuddling, in the sense that you know they'll say, "Oh, you know, "everyone should learn how to think "like a historian. "Oh no everybody should learn to think "like an economist. "Everyone should learn to think "like a physicist." And you kind of unpack it, you say, "Well why?" And it's, "Oh well because we deploy pools "that nobody else deploys and it's so great." Right. And so it's OK give me an example. I had this conversation with a university president who was a historian. And that president said, "Look, you know, "what we do is we look at you know, "primary source materials hundreds of years ago "and learn to interpret what they say to us "and ascertain truth from that. "That's an incredibly important skill." I said, "OK, so what you're saying is you "examine evidence and evaluate that evidence "to see what it can actually tell you. "Isn't that what every single scientist, "social scientist, no matter what field they're in does? "Isn't that what a physicist does? "Isn't that what an economist does? "Isn't that what a psychologist does? "Right, isn't that what an English professor does?" Right actually thinking about I remember I took a mini module when I was an undergraduate with Rebecca Bushnell who is a literature professor, eventually became the dean of the college of arts and science at the University of Pennsylvania. And, we basically looked at a text written 400 years before, and tried to figure out what parts of the text were written by the author, what were transcription errors, and what was censored. That's looking at evidence. >> Right, right. >> This was an English professor. It's the exact same process. But because people know about it in their field and they think the only way to get to it is through their field, as opposed to teaching the tool, it can't get out of their own way. >> Yeah. >> And that's why I think education is so stuck right now. >> Yeah. That's crazy. And you know we're all victims of kind of the context in which we look through everything, and the lens in which we apply to everything that we see which is you know one of my things that there isn't really a kind of a truth it's what is your interpretation. And that's really you know, what is in your head. But I want to close it out. And Ben I really appreciate your time today. It's been a great conversation. And really kind of take it back to your mission which is around critical thinking. You know there's a lot of conversation lately, you know, this kind of rush to STEM as the thing. And there's certainly a lot of great job opportunities coming out of school if you're a data scientist and you can write in R. But what I think is a more interesting conversation is to get out of your own way. You know is the critical thinking as you know the AI and RPA and all these other things kind of take over more of these tasks and really this higher order need for people to think through complex problems. >> Right. >> I mean like we're going through today. Thank God people who are qualified and can see ahead and saw an exponential curve potential just really causing serious damage when we're still to head into this thing to take aggressive action. Dr. Sarah Cody here locally here you know, telling the San Jose Sharks you can't play. You know that is not an easy decision. But thankfully they did and they had the data. But really just your kind of thoughts on why you prioritize on critical thinking and you know can what you see with your students when they get out into the real world applying critical thinking not necessarily equations. >> Yeah look I think there's no better demonstration of how important critical thinking is than when you look at the kinds of advances that STEM is trying to make. Right. What happens any time we get a demonstration of the power of artificial intelligence, right. You remember a few years ago when Microsoft released it's AI engine. Right. Smartest engineers working on it, and all of a sudden it you know spat back misogynist racist types of perspectives. Why? The training set was garbage. It wasn't that the technology was bad, actually it was amazing technology. But the people who were writing it couldn't think. They didn't know how to think two steps ahead and say, "Wait a second, if we train "the information, kind of the random comments "we see on the internet, you know, "who bothers to write anonymomys comments?" Trolls, right. And so if we train it on a troll data set, it'll become an artificial intelligent troll. Right. It doesn't take a lot of critical thinking to actually realize that, but it takes some. >> Right. >> Right. And when you focus merely on those technical skills what you wind up doing is wasting it. Right. And so if you ground people in critical thinking, and we see this with our graduate. You know we graduated our very first class in May. And we had what as far as I can tell is the best graduate school placement of any graduating class in the country. As far as the quality of offers they got. We had a 94% placement rate in jobs in graduate positions. Which I think is tied with the very best ivy league institutions. And the kinds of jobs that the students are getting and six months into them the kinds of reviews that their employers are giving us looks nothing like a recent undergraduate. These are oftentimes types of jobs that are unavailable to recent undergraduates. And you know we had one student recently actually just told me, fresh in my mind, even though he was the youngest person in his company, when the CEO of his company has a strategic question he comes to him. And when he's in a meeting, full of PhDs, everybody looks to him to run the meeting and set the agenda. He's six months out of undergrad, right. And you know I can give you story after story after story about each and every one of these graduate. And it's not because they were born with it. They actually had a wise education. >> Yeah. Ben well that's a great story. And we'll leave it there. Congratulations again to you and the team at Minerva and what you've built and your first graduating class. Great accomplishment and really great to catch up, it's been too long. And when this is all over we'll have to get together and have an adult beverage. >> That would be wonderful. >> All right Ben thanks a lot. >> Thanks so much Jeff. >> All right. You've been watching theCUBE. Great check in with Ben Nelson. Thanks for watching. Everybody stay safe and we'll see you next time. (upbeat electronic music)

>> From the Amazon meeting Center in downtown Seattle, it's theCUBE, covering IMAGINE: A Better World, a global education conference sponsored by Amazon Web Services. >> Hey, welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in Seattle, Washington at the first ever AWS IMAGINE education conference. I think they said there was 900 registrants. Teresa Carlson did the key note, just finished, really fantastic. 900 people, it's funny, she equated it to AWS Public Sector which, seven years ago, had 50 people. And this year it had, I think, 15,000 people. So I think we'll see a similar growth here. Really, application of all the things that AWS does for education specifically, and there's all the cost saving and shutting down data centers and all that kind of stuff. But much more importantly is educating the workforce and getting a new class of kids and educators involved in cloud computing 'cause, let's face it, it's the dominant paradigm going forward. I don't think there's much question about that. So we're excited to be here, talk to some of the great people, all educators. And our first guest is Dr. David Dimmett. He's the SVP and Chief Engagement Officer at Project Lead the Way. David, great to see you. >> Yeah, great, thanks for having us here. So we're excited to be here as part of this first ever education conference that AWS is hosting. So great event, lots of fantastic energy, excited to present later today on diversity inclusion and computer science education, a space where we're doing a lot of really great work. And want to share, and also here to learn. >> Great, so give us the overview on Project Lead the Way. >> Sure, so Project Lead the Way, we are a 20-year-old national nonprofit. We were started in upstate New York, and we're working today with over three million students in pre-K all the way through 12th grade in high school. And we work with them in computer science education, biomedical science engineering; our job is to inspire kids. We want them to have access to a lifetime of opportunity. We know these skills are essential. Students who have these skills have opportunities, have doors open to them. Students without these skills really, today, face a lifetime of consequences. >> Right, so how do you get the skills into the education? It's such a frustration, and typical K through 12 education, computer science has not been part of the standard curriculum. There's the math track, which you take trig and calc, and there's the science track with bio and physics and chem, but computer science really hasn't done a great job of weaseling its way into the standard curriculum that everybody takes. So how do you get this curriculum in? How do you get the education to the kids? >> Sure, and we're seeing some movement in this area, which is really exciting. AWS has been a big part of that. But what we look at, we for the last 20 years have really put an emphasis on testing students primarily in those subjects that are easy to test, so core academic content; we definitely need students to have knowledge in those areas. What's been missing for a long time is the connection to that core academic knowledge to real-world problem solving. And that's where kids come in to a Project Lead the Way classroom and get excited. So we're starting with them early as pre-K, working all the way through, and it's, like I said, all those career pathways. But they're applying what they're learning in their algebra class, they're applying what they're learning in their physics class. And we know the research indicates that students decide really early if they like or are good at math or science. And gone are the days where it's okay to just brush off those content areas. We need to rethink the way kids get excited and inspired at an early age. >> So do you pull them, then, into a separate classroom experience outside of their everyday at school? How does the mechanics actually work? >> Right, so we're working with about 14,000 programs all across the country this year, all 50 states. And there are a variety of implementation models. In the early grades, in pre-K through five, a lot of times that's integrating into the homeroom or into the primary classroom. So we're training teachers all across buildings in a lot of elementary schools all across the country. When you work your way into middle school and high school, students rotate through, sometimes as an elective. But increasingly we're seeing schools require those courses because it exposes students to some of the careers that they may not understand and opportunities that they don't know exist. >> Right, it's so funny, right? 'Cause technology, over and over and over again, back to the Luddites, right, destroys certain industries, creates new industries, right? You don't want to be the guy making buggy whips anymore; it's probably not a great industry. But there didn't use to be web developers. There didn't use to be integration specialists. There didn't use to be SEO people. So there's a whole new class of applications that continue to be created with each of these huge information technology transformations. >> Yeah, it really is, and we have an increasing gap, really, unfortunately, in equality of opportunity. Increasingly today, we see students who have access to these opportunities in their pre-K, 12 experiences. Those students have a chance to go on to all kinds of careers, whether it's AWS, Verizon, Toyota, Lockheed Martin, you can go down the list. Companies are recruiting students that have these skills. Students who happen to not get exposed to these opportunities early really struggle to catch up later in life or later in their education system. So we really look at a variety of on-ramps for students. We work in the school day primarily. We also support a lot of work outside the school day. One of the key things that we do is we help teachers gain confidence in these areas. We were talking earlier about the skills gap that exists for adults in getting into some of these careers; same thing exists for teachers. We have teacher shortages all across the country. And what we're really looking to do is inspire not just students but the teachers who teach them. We'll train over 10,000 teachers this summer and get them ready to go in and inspire and prepare their students. >> It's really interesting, especially you get smarter kids once they're in high school and college. And they're looking for that connection. "Come on, Dad, what am I taking in chemistry? "I'm not going to be a doctor, "I'm not going to be a chemical scientist. "How does it relate to what I'm going to do "or philosophy or whatever." But these types of skills are really, really cogent. And not to mention that, but the kids are interacting with these types of applications all the day. So the connection between what I'm doing at school versus what I might be doing when I get out of school has got to be so much tighter than when you take a philosophy class or an American lit class. >> Yeah, we're rolling out, and with AWS's support. AWS has provided us with subject matter experts with a lot of the technological tools to help us deliver a brand new cybersecurity course this year all across the country. We're really excited about that. And you look at what's happening in terms of the cybersecurity threats that our country faces, that other countries face. It's both an economic issue but also a national security issue. And we just don't have the skilled workforce to be effective in those areas. We're inspiring kids, through AWS's help, to get excited and not just get excited but to have the skills to go out and be successful. So what I love, too, is a lot of the advances that we anticipate in healthcare are not going to be necessarily biomedical advancements. They will be, but they'll also be technological advances. We've worked with Cerner to train teachers in our computer science courses; they're one of the world's largest medical records companies. How do we provide data and information, big data, to medical providers, so that they can provide the best targeted treatment to their students? And so one of the things that we thrive on in our work is the connection to business and industry. And we want to provide that talent, that workforce, of the future. >> Right, so let me just drill in on that a little bit in terms of the role. You said you've been around for 20 years, your foundation. The role of private companies in general, and AWS specifically in helping on some of these really big problems, these really big efforts. 'Cause we know the public school systems never have enough money, getting pulled in a ton of different directions. So what kind of impact does somebody like AWS coming in help you complete your mission? >> Right, so AWS, AWS Educate have provided us with a variety of supports, and they're really helping us do a lot of really great work for students all across the country. A couple of specific examples. I mentioned subject matter experts. Having AWS come in and help us not just with this cybersecurity course but also how do we infuse into our other computer science coursework cloud career skilled development? And so we're doing that now with AWS's support. And Ken Eisner and his team have really helped us for the last couple of years; it's a great partnership. Additionally, providing us with the infrastructure, the applications, the AWS ecosystem of supports are helping us do a variety of things to secure student data, to also drive down cost to schools. All of those things together provide a great opportunity to the students that we're serving, three million plus, all across the country. >> Three million plus, that's great. So there's a real specific program that I want to give you a chance to talk about, the Kentucky Cloud Careers Pathways. That's kind of an example; give us a little bit more color. And we talked before, I got a lot of family in Kentucky, so it touched me a little bit. And, of course, Teresa's from there as well. >> So Kentucky is one of our strongest states for Project Lead the Way and has been for a lot of years. The governor and his cabinet have really done a lot of work to advance career opportunities, workforce development, economic development. And what we have and what we announced last year in Kentucky is the Cloud Career Pathway program. And that is a partnership between AWS; Project Lead the Way; the community college system in Kentucky; the governor's economic, labor, development, education departments; all of us working together to get kids exposed to cloud careers early in their education experience. And we've started training teachers to that end this year. We think it's going to be a real model for the country. >> David, I think you said it in every one of your answers, adding the "and the teachers, too." Such an important part, right? Such a key enabler to make this thing actually go. It can't just be about the kids. >> Absolutely, teachers are the bedrock of what we do in education. I say that as a lifelong educator. We've got a lot of work to do, and teachers are under attack in some places. And you've seen this last year, the work that's happened to put teachers in a position to be successful. And we've got a lot of work to do there. But our job, we want to go out and inspire the country's best teachers to go in and work in some of the most difficult work situations that exist in our country and inspire kids and with limited resources. And teachers are pouring their hearts out to do that. We think we've got a great opportunity, but we trained 10,000 plus teachers this year alone. And we see those teachers gain confidence. They go back to their classrooms, they're excited, and they know more about the opportunities that exist for their students. And I say that as a lifelong educator. In fact, my wife and I met 20 years ago as first-year teachers, so that, to me, is really core to what we do. >> Well, I see the passion in your eyes. So thank you for following up on this mission and doing good work and spending a few minutes with us on theCUBE. >> Yeah, that's great, thanks Jeff. >> All right, he's David, I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE from AWS IMAGINE Educate. Thanks for watching. (electronic music)

>> Announcer: From New York, it's theCUBE, covering Blockchain Week. (light, upbeat music) Now, here's John Furrier. >> Hello everyone, I'm John Furrier. We're here on the ground in New York City for consensus 2018's Blockchain Week. I'm here with David Siegel who's the CEO of the Pillar Project, also the author of the Token Economics Handbooks, entrepreneur, mentor to companies. Thanks for coming on. >> Sure. Thank you John. Great to be here. >> So, I'm excited to talk with you, because I've been saying all week I love token economics. It's a core part of the business model, disruption. >> Right. >> It's part of the key formula where Blockchain shines. It's where the rubber meets the road as some say. So, let's jump in. >> Sure. >> In a, how much is being discussed here about that. I mean, obviously ICOs are well known and people are looking at that road, but token economics, the importance of it. >> First, I think it's important to understand we're at the very beginning of this. It's a steep learning curve. We have these old model T tokens called the ERC20 Token, which we will get rid of and build better things. We have models that are mostly based on old, you know whenever there's a new technology, we first imitate the old stuff until we see what the new. So one of the really exciting new things that's come out of this is effectively the Ethereum model, where you raise some money. You build a system, and it's open source. It's free. Anyone can take it and do anything with it, but it requires its own token to work. And the people who sell those tokens, you sell about 70% to your funders. And that creates the economy, but you hold about 30% back, and as the value goes up, as the network affect kicks in, and as these things rise in value, your 30% funds the project indefinitely after you run out of the first. So that's a pretty exciting model. That's what I call sort of basic Tokenomics. You have no business model. You have no income model. You're totally open source, but your token powers your platform, and you have some tokens in your back pocket. >> Yeah, and the general form that you see is 70 30, roughly. Is that just a pattern? >> That's about, that's normal. Now, that in a single sale, and what we see now in ICO land is pre-sale and then the big sale. I think we'll go to a more staged model, because I think too many companies are over-funded, too many projects are over-funded. 240 million dollars for status, maybe we don't need that much to start a project with a white paper. So, I think we're, I hope we'll go to a staged model. >> Explain stage model. >> You might sell 20% and raise what do you need to get to first base, three million to show a minimum viable product and get traction. >> Yeah, it makes sense. >> You know, what projects need more than three, maybe four? I mean, you don't need 20 million. And then you do that, but now you've got 80% of tokens in reserve. so now things are going well. Your token has gone for let's say five cents to 20 cents. You can sell another 20%. >> So the funding of the platform is that token economics kick in, per your other example, that 30% 70 goes raise and 30% funds the platform indefinitely. >> Yeah, that's typical. >> If you do the staged approach, what you're saying is there's more power in reserve to fund the platform. Cause if you can, if you get to first base, you might get to second. >> I think investors have been too gullible. And they're looking at these 50, 80, hundred million dollar raises and going oh me too. I have fear of missing out. I want to get in on that too. That's the big deal of the day. That is the one that's probably going to have lousy returns, right. These things are over-funded and not, there's no real give and take with the market. >> Yep. >> You know to get, like, nothing ever really works the way you plan. No business plan is ever worth anything. Think of, you know, Google, Apple, Microsoft. Their first business plans are for something else. (John laughs) So, find groups of people that you can give money to, not too much, get to first base, get some traction. Make something, listen to the market, continue to, you know, build what people want. And then your token will rise, and then you sell the next-- >> So I got to ask you. >> You know what. It's very much like venture capital, right. We do it in stages. >> It's pragmatic. It's the right way, I think an investor and the entrepreneur, by the way, your point is also valid, because like in venture capital, if you take on too much money, you could actually fail. You're not optimized, and we've seen that before. >> It's not good allocation of capital now. We've got a lot of innovation to do. Wouldn't it be great if we could do a thousand projects at like two or three, four million dollar level and see which ones come out of that? And then give them more. >> David, let's walk through a use case. So I'm a entrepreneur or I'm a growing business, and I maybe bootstrapped it or maybe took a little bit of the seed funding and did some cloud technology, open source, and whoa I've got a product. And I go, you know what, the growth strategy for me as a company is use token economics, because I got to decentralize use fit there. >> Sure. >> And I see a way to scale and grow with tokens. How should I set up my token economics? I got security tokens. I got utility tokens. Do I do a (crosstalking) purpose vehicle? It just sounds so complicated. >> I'm making funny faces John, because I see too many tokens, where you know, we always say, and I'm a token designer, well, what does a token do. Well the answer is it raises money. That is the number one answer. It raises money. Well, does it actually do anything for the token holders? Well, I'm not sure. >> Maybe down the road. >> It gives you access to the system. Is that a good answer? So, I think actually we should be turning most of these token sales into equity sales. And that's a different kettle of fish. So, I honestly think people misunderstand the ICO concept. And they should, we should think of ICOs as we know them today as project finance, not corporate finance, not company, not start up finance. Start up finance should be done with equity. >> That's a great point. >> Equity is something you hold very dear. There's only a hundred percent of it. You sell it only if you need to to get to the next level. And equity means your shareholders are along for the ride. They may have to vote you out of your job at some point. >> it's happened to me before. Happened to me before. That's venture capital. >> You may be acquired. You may, any number of things can happen to equity. And project finance is different. So, the Pillar Project is an open source project. It's a non-profit foundation in Switzerland. No one owns it. It can't be bought. Our goal is to do one project that we said in the white paper. We are on track to do that, but if for some reason we couldn't do that, I think the money should go back to the people who funded your white paper, not some random ride off in the hay. >> David, take a minute to talk about the Pillar Project. I was going to get to that. Let's go to that. What's the Pillar Project about? How did this come to life? >> Sure. >> What's the current status? >> So the Pillar Project is a good example of an open source non-profit project that uses Tokenomics and is not a company and has no equity. We have a token that will give you access to our wallet, which is coming this summer. And the wallet's meant to be, initially just a cryptocurrency wallet, like many others, but with so many differences John. So, for example there will be a name look up, an address book, and you'll find me by name, and you'll send me tokens, currencies by name, or you'll trade with me by name. You'll never see an ether address. You'll never see a Bitcoin address, no fishing, no hacking, no whacky cut and paste errors and mistakes. For example, the Blockchain Explorer will be built into our wallet, so as you send me something or trade something, you'll be getting status information all the time. You'll never go to a Blockchain Explorer. All these nice things are built in. We have lots of features for your mom to make it easy for her to understand and keep it very simple. >> So you've abstracted away some of the complexities. >> We've added complexity on the back end to do the services that make the front end very simple. >> Okay, got it, and what's current status of the project funding wise. >> We'll be shipping the first. Well, we raised money last July. We had a 20 million dollar funding last July. That has gone up, because ether has gone up. We got about 50 people full time. We're in London. >> So you're at first base or second base? >> We'll be on first base in July. We've got to get our product out the door. >> It's the wallet. >> It's a wallet to start with, but also it will help you manage your personal data. It will help you be GDPR compliant. We'll have an exchange, and we'll be doing equity ICOs. We'll be doing, in the wallet, we'll be doing, for example, with the utility ICO, you'll issue your token, you'll sell it to people. They'll buy it in the wallet, and then trading will be immediate. You'll be listed, everything right there. Don't move stuff around. We're trying to create a place that's safe for consumers. >> Got it. Alright, I love this concept about open source. And, it's kind of threaded. Some people are open source guys, like me and you who have seen that movie go from in a radical second tier citizen to primary tier power in the world. As Blockchain takes a community focus, we're seeing the same business model that made Red Hat very famous, that's powering the Linux Foundation. This notion of projects. >> Yeah. >> And in open source, it's a distinction between project and product, upstream projects, a community, downstream products. Downstream activity is where people productize the project. >> Yes. >> I see a pattern happening in this world where we're starting to see some of that. >> Interesting, okay. >> Your thoughts on this, because that's Ethos has proven, this world has got a lot of growth to it. Are we seeing this open source ethos and principles, architecting in some of the successful crypto projects? >> I would take this productization analogy pretty far, because it's true in the profit world too. It's true with startups often do this as well. It's a service. You get better at it. You productize it. That's pretty common. So I think that's part and parcel of just solving customer needs and then scaling, right. The non-profit thing or the open source thing is different, because you can't make money on your open source thing. You've got to find another way, right. And here in Blockchain world, we're using scaling effects and tokens. So let's go to Tokenomics, where you can start an ecosystem fresh with a token that has no value. And Ether had no value on day one, right, almost no value. And through network effect and use and the fact that it's a limited number. The limited number's important. The limited number makes it so that it's scarcity, right. It's got value to people who can see oh later it might be worth more. So you got both natural buyers and speculators coming into a system. And this is what's giving the SEC a hard time, because they can't see whether it's... >> They don't understand it. >> Is it a security or is it a gym membership? >> It's a serious problem, because they don't understand it. And they're causing a lot of, they're stunting a lot of growth in my opinion. But the thing about token economics is what you're getting at, and this is where I trying to squint through the noise. I understand in an infrastructure web one dot O. You got URLs. You got DNS. You have infrastructure. >> Yeah. >> Google has cost per click. All that apparatus doesn't work for network effects. So if you look at network effects as being the main value proposition in most of these opportunities, why were we using E-commerce stack, an old model, because how do you measure networks? Tokens are becoming and wallets are becoming a key infrastructure. I see this coming. >> Yes. >> And I see the network effect tokens becoming both an instrumentation vehicle and a transactional currency opportunity. So, this is a dynamic that Blockchain could really and tokens... >> So I think the huge opportunity John is that instead of fake news and fake everything and fragile DNS systems and things that are centralized, we can decentralize things now with a token at the center that puts skin in the game. And a great example is science. You know we do science pretty badly. It's whoever can get budget for whatever whacky project. And if we had a betting, a side bet system, where people could bet on the outcome of projects, even when you propose them, the people who make the decisions of whether to fund these things could look at the odds first of what the crowd thinks. And if the crowd is right about the outcome, the winners take the money from the losers. And this skin in the game concept is being used... >> Yeah, it's a marketplace. The market dynamics of what you just said I think is very important. This changes the evaluation structure based upon new information. >> So, the price of fake news is almost zero. And we saw that in the last election. We see that in Facebook everyday. We see that on the front page of the New York Times. The price of fake news is close to zero. If it costs you money that it, when it, turns out your stuff is fake, if you have to put up money alongside your news, and then we find out it's fake, and you lose it, that will change things. >> Yes. >> So the skin in the game tokens, and you can actually google skin in the game tokens and learn a bunch of interesting models is what's coming next. >> Well, we have to bring you on board theCube project that we're starting. We're tokenizing our platforms, and we think about this all the time. >> Yeah. >> It's very cutting edge. David, really great to have you on. Talk about the book. Where can we find it? Are you on Medium? >> One quick thing. You know, we're going to have token camp coming up in Lithuania. We've got a one week workshop and un-conference in Vilnius, Lithuania. I know that sounds like nowhere. >> What is that? What's the date? >> It's July 15th to 22nd. It's free. Pillar's paying for it. It's at a resort. We're taking over a resort with crazy crypto people, skin in the game tokens, token camp. We've got a business agility camp for entrepreneurs, for investors, for coders. We're going to do, in fact we're, I can just announce right now that we're doing a hackathon with Radix, an incredible new Blockchain and a bunch of interesting people. Lex Okland will be there, Venay Gupta. We're going to have learning, learning for seven days. >> That's at a resort. >> It's at a resort in Lithuania. >> So it's all one compound. >> Yeah, we're taking it over. And there will be a little golf. But it's good for families. We did it last year. >> I checked it out. It's got a lot of lake there too. You got a lake. You got golf courses. >> It's going to be really fun. And we did it last year, and people were learning until one o'clock in the morning. >> What's the capacity you're looking at for that event? >> 500 people. >> So intimate. It's a very intimate event. >> It should be perfect. We're going to be blasting out. You should come. We're going to be blasting out on 4K. We've got enough bandwidth to send to YouTube and to wherever else you want to distribute video. You could be part of the media center. >> Awesome, well David Siegel, great to have you on. Final question, your take away from Blockchain Week. Obviously, new entrants are going to, new actors are coming into the system, community's booming. It's still tight knit, but now you have finance. You have tech and you have developers all coming together. Your thoughts of the show this week, Blockchain Week. >> Yeah, one thing, the demos are pretty lame in general, I think. We still aren't paying much attention to user experience at all. >> Yep. >> I think the enterprise guys have a lot to learn, because they're kind of playing their normal enterprise game. And it doesn't look so good here. >> Yeah, Jace was talking about the Blockchain washing. (David laughs) Basically, putting a Blockchain-- >> We added Blockchain to this enterprise project and look. >> Yeah, is that a real dynamic in your opinion? >> I think they're figuring it out. I think some of the academic and some of the white paper stuff I've seen is okay and commercializing it. They're on the path to learning how to commercialize it. But they're not part of us. They're not, they'll never be crypto-anarchists, okay fine. But they don't really seem to get us and to be part of it. They're, it's amazing to see a conference where IBM, Microsoft, you know these other big names, are deloyed, are, like, in their own little pockets on the side, and no one's paying. >> John: It's a toe in the water for them. >> They're not paying much attention, because you go in there, and it's the normal marketing jargon and brochures. And it doesn't feel like they're really engaging. >> Yeah. >> I'd love to see more engagement with our community. >> And I think they got to really get engaged in. The good news is, for IBM at least, they're part of the Linux Foundation and Hyperledger Project. So, we're seeing some open sourcedness there, I mean. >> I'd like to see more thought leadership, more real, you know, publish some papers. Come to our conferences and give us some substance. >> Well, I mean, I talked to Michael Dell and Pat Gelsing for instance, and, you know, they are into Blockchain. Michael Dell's watched watched Oslo's videos. He'll probably watch this video. They're learning. And the statement is what they're doing is they're giving it to their R and D teams, so office of the CT. They're not really, so it's very academic, to your point. They haven't really operationalized the ethos and product. >> You know what? >> It's time for experiments. There's no way you're going to blockchain your whole company, your whole supply chain. It is time for experiments, and it is time for guys like Michael Dell to jump in and say we are-- >> What's your advice to Michael? What would you tell him to do? >> It's time for experiments. We're going to do some things. We're going to try some things. We're going to partner up. The Hyperledger stuff, you know, try more than that. Don't just be, go into meetings and summits and top down. Try some bottom up stuff of empower your employees, Michael. You're not Michael, but I'm telling you (John laughs) Michael empower people to try some things. They might even not be... They might be quasi-legal, but if it's an experiment, you're going to learn something. And then you can talk to the lawyers. Don't have the lawyers and the management say what the program is. >> Cause that'll put it in a box. >> They won't get it. >> They won't get it. They'll stop the action. >> They won't find that-- >> Ask for forgiveness, not permission. >> Ask for, go do it. Go build. Get, hire some crazy crypto people, and tell them to look for inefficiencies in your whole operation and cut them down by 90%. >> David, great conversation. We could go for another hour. You're going to be a regular, I can tell, on theCUBE. When we do our live format, we're going to certainly have you back. Keep in touch. >> Sure. >> I'm John Furrier here at Blockchain Week in Consensus as wrapping up the day three of coverage. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching. Be right back. (light, upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From San Francisco it's theCUBE. Covering Red Hat Summit 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back, everyone. We are here live in San Francisco, the Moscone West for the Red Hat Summit and we're covering three days of wall-to-wall coverage. I'm John Furrier with my co-host John Troyer. Our next guest is Jennifer Cloer, creator and executive producer of The Chasing Grace Project, formerly CUBE alumni, was on at the CloudNOW awards at Google. Great to see you. >> Great to see you, thanks for having me. >> So obvioulsy Open Source has been amazing growth, okay, and it has kind of democratized software. >> Right. >> You've got a project in my opinion that I think is democratizing, getting the word out on the tech issues around women in tech and more importantly, it's inspirational, but it's also informational. Take a minute and explain what is the project Chasing Grace? Obviously Grace, Grace Hopper. >> Right. Right, The Chasing Grace Project is a documentary series of six episodes about women in tech. The name does lend itself to Grace. We named it after Grace Hopper because she really exemplifies the grit and the excellence that we're all chasing all the time. It's also this idea that we're chasing the idea of grace in the face of adversity. It's not always easy but the women who we've interviewed and talked to exhibit amazing grace and are super inspiring. So the series doesn't shy away from adversity but it certainly focuses on stories of resilience. >> And when did you start the project and is there episodes? Is it on Netflix? >> Yes. >> Is it on DVD? >> (laughs) Let's hope. We hope so. We started the project, excuse me, about a year and a half ago. I put a call for stories out in a number of women in tech forums I belong to, was inundated with responses. Women are ready to share their stories. Spent every Friday for about four or five months on back-to-back calls with women, produced the trailer last May, a year ago, released it in September, and since then it's been a whirlwind. Lots of interest. Lots of men and women wanting to share their stories, as well as people wanting to underwrite the work, which is fabulous because it relies on sponsors. So yeah, we're about a year and a half in. We just finished episode one and screened it. We've got four or five more to go so we're early. We're early, but it's happening. >> And share some stories because I saw the trailer, it's phenomenal. There's women in tech and the culture of the bro culture, people talk about that all the time. It's male-dominated and you're seeing here with Red Hat Summit, there's women here but it's still dominated by men. >> Right. >> The culture has to evolve and I think a lot of men are smart and see it. Some aren't and some are learning. I would call learning a bigger (laughs) percentage. >> Sure. >> What are you finding that women who are really driving the change has been the big trend line? And how's the men reacting? Because the men have to be involved, too because they also have to take responsibility for the change. >> Absolutely, absolutely. I would say that by women sharing their stories we are starting to change culture. I'm actually keynoting today at the Women's Leadership lunch at Red Hat Summit. I'm going to talk about that, the impact of story on cultural change because there's a lot of reasons cited for the decline of women in tech, because we've gone backwards. There's actually fewer than ever before. But many things are cited. So the pipeline issue, poor education, but the biggest thing cited is the culture and the culture has changed over the course of the last decade in particular. So the women we've talked to, their stories of resilience are starting to change that culture. When people talk and share experiences and stories, there's empathy that comes from both men and women who hear those stories and I think that that starts to change culture. It's starting to happen. I think we are pivoting, it's happening. But there's still a lot of work to do. >> John Troyer: Jennifer, at the keynote, or at the luncheon here, the Women's Leadership luncheon, anything else that you'll be bringing up? That sounds like part of your message here that you're going to be bringing today and you want to share right before you go up? >> Yeah, sure. So like I said, I'll talk about the impact of story on culture. I'll talk about the stories of resilience. I'm going to share a few stories from women who we've actually interviewed and featured in episode one. Because you can't see episode one online because we're in discussions with distributors, I'm going to share those stories with this audience. And I think folks can, like I said, learn from those and gain empathy and walk away hopefully with action. >> That seems great. The storytelling of course is key, right? We're in an interesting place in our culture today and I think social media, the 10 or 20 years of social media that we've had is part of that. I know my feed is filled with incredible women leaders in tech and frankly it's much better for it. But you know, you do sense a sense of almost weariness in some folks because this is one, they get shit on, can I say that? >> Hey, it's digital TV, there's no censorship. >> But also you'd like to eventually, if you're a woman in tech, you'd like to be able to talk about tech, not just being a woman in tech. >> Right, right. >> I guess, is that just at the part, is that just where we are in society right now? >> I think so and you know, it's a marathon, not a sprint, right? It's going to take a long time. It took a long time to get us to this place, it's going to take a long time to move us forward. But yeah, women do want to build tech and not have to advocate for themselves. Hopefully projects like The Chasing Grace Project and other work that's happening out there, there's a lot of initiatives that have sprung up in the last few years, are helping to do that so that the women who are building can build. >> What's your big takeaway from the work you've done so far? It could be something that didn't surprise you that you knew was pretty obvious and what surprised you? What's some of the things that's come out of it that's personal learnings for you? >> I think the power that comes from giving women a platform to be seen and heard for their experiences. Almost every woman I've talked to says I feel so alone. They're in an office with mostly men. There might be another woman but they feel so alone and when they share their stories and they see other women sharing their stories, they know they're not alone. There may be few of them but the stories are very similar. I think that men learn a lot when they see women sharing their stories, too because they don't know. The experiences that we all have are very different. We're walking through the same industry but our day-to-day experiences are quite different. Learning what that's like, both for women, for men, there are men that are going to be featured in this series, and women of other women. Just the power in that. Most women tell me I don't really have a story. Well, you both know that when you dig a little bit, >> They all have stories. >> everybody has a story. Everybody has a story, multiple stories. So, yeah. >> So let me as you a question. This has come up in some of my interviews on women in tech and that is is that it kind of comes up subtlety, it's not really put out there, like you said, aggressively. But they say there's also a women women pressure. So how have you found that come up? Because it's not just women and men. I've heard women say there's pressure, there's other pressures from other women. Do more or do less and it's kind of an individual thing but it's also kind of code, as well to stick together. At the same time, there's a women and women dynamic. >> Yeah. >> What have you found on that? >> Mostly I've found, I think there's a shift happening, mostly I've found that women are forming community and supporting each other. Everyone has a different definition of feminism or womenism (laughs) as some women have called it, but I think there are some women who have told me, usually the older generations who have told me there's only room for one woman at the table. One woman makes it to leadership and she's very protective of that space. But we're seeing that less and less. >> I don't want to turn this into, you hate to turn this into a versus scenario, right? Especially online I see a lot of interaction of men coming up and saying, either trying to explain to women what their problem is or, but also saying educate me, like take your time to educate me because I can't be bothered to figure it out myself. Or also trying to stand up themselves and lead the charge. So one of my personal things I do, I sit back and let the women talk and listen to them about what they want to do. >> Right. >> Any particular advice you have for folks who are listening and who might want to, you know, what do you do? I guess sit down and pay attention. >> Yeah, I'd say listen to the stories. Listen to what women need and want out of their male allies and advocates. And listen to the women who you already are friends and colleagues with. What do they need from you? Start there. And then build your way out. I remember when I first started The Chasing Grace Project, I was actually advised by people, well don't feature men at all because they can't speak for women and that's very true but I've decided that we will feature both men and women because we're all part of the industry, right? When I talk about the future is being built by all of us. We need more women in leadership. We don't need just women in leadership, we need men and women. So I think though, right now at this moment in time men should listen and ask their, like I said, their inside circle of women that are friends and colleagues, what can I do? What do you need in terms of my support? >> And it's inclusion, too. There's a time to have certain, all women and then men, as well. >> Right. >> Kind of the right balance. >> Right. >> Well, I have to ask you obvioulsy, Red Hat is an Open Source world. Community is huge. Obviously tech has a community and some will argue how robust it is (laughs) >> Right. (laughs) >> and fair it is. And communities have their own personality, but the role of the community becomes super critical. Can you just share your thoughts and views of how the role of the community can up its game a bit on inclusion and diversity? And I put inclusion first because inclusion and diversity, that seems to be the trend in my interviews, diversity and inclusion, and now it's inclusion and diversity. But the community has some self-policing mechanisms. There's kind of a self-governance dynamic of communities. So it's an opportunity. >> It is an opportunity. >> So what's your view? >> There are a lot of things that are talked about within the Open Source community in terms of how to advance inclusion in a positive way. One is enforcement. So at events like this, there's a code of conduct. They've become very popular. Everybody has one, for good reason, but everybody's doing them now. I worked at The Linux Foundation for 12 years. When you have an incident at an event, if you don't enforce your code of conduct, it doesn't mean anything. So I think that's one very tangible example of something you can do. We certainly tried at The Linux Foundation, but I remember it was a challenge. If something happened, what was the level of issue and how would we enforce that and address it? So I think the community can do that. I think start there, yeah. >> What's your take on The Linux Foundation, since you brought it up? Lots going on there. >> Right. >> You've got CNCF is exploding in growth. >> Jennifer: Right. >> Part of that, Jim Zemlin is doing a great job. As you look at The Linux Foundation since you have the history, >> Yeah. >> where it's come from and where it's going, what's your view of that? >> My goodness. I was part of The Linux Foundation before it was called The Linux Foundation. It was called Open Source Development Labs, way, way, back. But you know, always impressed with what The Linux Foundation is doing. CNCF in particular is on fire. I watched my social media feeds last week about KubeCon in Copenhagen, a lot of friends there. You know, Open Source is the underpinning of society. If the world we live in is a digital one and we're building that digital existence for tomorrow, the infrastructure is Open Source. So it's just going to become more and more relevant. >> And they're doing a great job. And it's an opportunity with the community again to change things. >> Yeah. >> There's a good mindset in the Open Source community with Linux Foundation. Very growth-oriented, growth mindset. Love the vibe there. They've got good vibes. >> Yeah. >> They're very open and inclusive. >> There's some projects that are really prioritizing. DNI, one of which is Cloud Foundry Foundation. Abby Kearns is doing an amazing job there. The Node.js community I think is pretty progressive. So yeah, it's encouraging. >> Abby was on theCUBE. We were there in Copenhagen. >> Right, right. >> Thanks for coming on. >> My pleasure. >> What's next for you? Your life's a whirlwind. Take a quick minute. >> Yeah, I'm in Chicago next week for a shoot. We're shooting episode two which is focused on women in leadership roles. There's only 11% of executive positions in Silicon Valley are held by women. So it's a provocative topic because a lot of women haven't experienced that so we want more to do that. >> Well, if you need any men for the next show, John and I will happily volunteer. >> Okay, wonderful. >> To be stand-ins and backdrops. >> Fantastic, thank you. >> Thanks for coming on. It's theCUBE coverage here live, Moscone West in San Francisco for Red Hat Summit 2018. We'll be back with more coverage after this short break.

(clicking) >> I am Lisa Martin with theCUBE on the ground at Google for the sixth annual Top Women in Cloud Awards event with CloudNOW. Very excited to be joined by next guest, Ajit George, the Managing Director of the Shanti Bhavan Children's Project. Welcome to the cube. >> Hi Lisa, it's great to be here. >> So, I was so excited to have a chat with you. The Shanti Bhavan Children's Project is incredible. Tell us about it, 20 years now, tell us about what that is, how your family is involved, and what it's helping to do for these young children in Bangelore, India? >> Sure, Shanti Bhavan was founded by my father, Dr. Abraham George, 20 years ago, and its goal is to educate children, but also to eliminate poverty and change entire systems of communities and governments. It, the way we achieve this goal is by taking children from the poorest communities in India, giving them a high-quality, boarding school education, from the age of four until they graduate from 12th grade, and we cover everything during that period. So, their healthcare, their clothing, their boarding, food, all of that is taken care of, as well as training in soft skills. So, debate, interpersonal and interview skills, leadership skills, and the whole nine yards. While we educate them in the highest curriculum, the toughest standards in India, and then we pay for their entire college degree afterwards. So, that is 17 years of a high-quality intervention per child from the very first day they start school to the very first day of work. >> That's incredible and you have a very high college graduation rate, isn't that correct? Yeah, that is correct. If they pass out of high school, their high school graduation rate is about 77%, University graduation rate is 98% and so- >> Wow, 98%. >> It's been pretty exciting and they go on from those, from college to multinational companies, like Mercedes-Benz or Amazon, or Goldman Sachs. So, our kids who come from urban slums or rural villages with huts with no running water or electricity are making more in their first five years, than their parents make in a lifetime. So, it's a quantum leap, it is a genuine breaking the cycle of poverty, and the ability to become both, either the primary or the sole breadwinner for their entire family. So, four or five other people are dependent on them at the age of 21. >> And that's incredible, I was watching, there is a Daughters of Destiny, Netflix Original Docuseries. I saw the trailer of it today, incredibly profound. One of the things that, a couple things that really stuck out to me was, this is taking children from poverty to possibility. And also, one of the young girls that was in that trailer had said, "I've got a lot to lose, it's now or never for me." These children seem to really understand the gravity of their situation, and genuinely recognize the opportunity that they've been given. >> Yeah, sure, every single Shanti Bhavan child understands, it's almost like they've won the lottery, they've had an opportunity that no one in their families have ever had, but no one from their communities have had either. They're the first person in their family for generations to get any kind of education, and so that's a powerful opportunity, but it's also an important obligation or duty to give back to the family and to make an impact for the community because they are given this golden ticket, and they want to do something important with it. If they don't succeed, nobody gives them a second chance. Kids from that kind of community, and from that kind of circumstance, don't really have a second chance if they aren't able to make the most of it. So when you hear those stories they're talking about, "hey, I really need to seize this moment." "I need to seize this opportunity," maybe, "my mother's back at home and she needs my help," maybe, "my father's bedridden." A lot of these kids have generational debt, so they owe money to, like a money lender, which is an illegal lender and that's a couple generations back. Maybe their grandparents have taken out this debt, so they have all these debts piled up on them, and they have healthcare bills piled up on them, and they've got housing and all of these other problems. Then they have to educate their younger brothers and sisters and pay for dowries for their family members. It's the enormous responsibilities on one child is huge, but they're able to step up because they're given this powerful education, this great opportunity, so there's a lot of pressure, but there's also this great knowledge that they have a horizon out there that no one in their family has ever had before. >> That's incredible and so in the last couple minutes here, CloudNOW, where we are at the awards event tonight, they've teamed up with Intel, Apcera, and CB Technologies, to launch the Daughters of Destiny STEM scholarship. So exciting, what's that going to mean for current students, at Shanti Bhavan or the future students? >> Right, I think I'm really, really thankful, first of all to CB Technologies, Intel, and Apcera, as well as the CloudNOW. This scholarship is the first of its kind within our program and it allows these three young ladies, who are the first recipients of the scholarship, and hopefully there'll be many more recipients, but these young ladies to get a high-quality college education in the STEM fields, which is their passion. So, it opens doors for them for their education, potentially for internships and maybe job opportunities after college. So, I think this is a gateway to something bright and beautiful. >> Oh, I love that and how you described it for these children as a quantum leap, is as profound as what's been shown in the Netflix series. So, Ajit, thank you so much for joining. I wish we had more time, this is such an incredible project that you're working on, but we thank you for stopping by theCUBE and sharing it with us. >> Thank you so much, Lisa, it's great to be here. >> We want to thank you for watching theCUBE. I'm Lisa Martin on the ground at Google for the CloudNOW, Top Women in Technology Awards. Bye for now. (closing music)

you hi I'm Lisa Martin with the cube on the ground at Google for the 6th annual cloud now top women and cloud awards event and we're very excited to be joined by our next guest jennifer clora the executive producer of the chasing Grace Project welcome to the cube thank you this project is so interesting I was telling you before we went on that I watched the trailer for it and tell us a little bit about the chasing Grace Project what your plans are for this dunkey series being being released and really the the inspiration sure so it's a documentary series of six episodes about women in tech it really talks about the culture of tech the adversities that women face doesn't shy away from those but moves pretty quickly to inspirational stories of women who have navigated a successful path in tech so that other women can learn from those experiences and join us in tech and for those women thinking about leaving maybe inspire them to stay and give them the tools they need to navigate their own paths forward I love that I was very impressed with some of the women that are featured even in the trailer of how honest they were being did you find that they felt either intimidated to share or maybe liberated to say this is what's going on there needs to be voices and faces to it yeah I think there I think women are feeling empowered right now to talk and when they share their stories they're even more empowered by the community of men and women that come around them and give them support so the women that are on camera volunteered to be so I put out a call for stories in a number of places Irish I was inundated with responses I spent four months the beginning of the year interviewing over a hundred women and trying to understand what the collective experience is for women in tech and so these women are not intimidated they're they're powerful amazing women who I am in awe of their courage what were some of the common maybe that the top two or three kind of common challenges that you heard over and over again that women in tech regardless of if they're in marketing like one you and I are or in engineering that they're facing access to opportunity they seem to feel like they hit a wall you know there's the talk about the ceiling but a lot of them talk about they hit a wall that others don't see but all of a sudden they can't go any further a lot of microaggressions that we've all heard and read about dismissiveness being overlooked in medians and for promotions our first episode is on the pay gap we've heard stories about women who have found out their male counterparts are making more than them and the differences and when they confront their bosses and when they don't so a lot of different examples we have some very explicit stories about online harassment there's some of that in the trailer one of the women Cassady shares a really amazing story about that so they vary but certainly it's happening right and we don't want to shy away from that because I think once you acknowledge what's happening and tell those stories you can start to chart the course forward I agree I think that awareness is incredibly important you are also in technology tell me a little bit about your career path in technology did you always aspire to be in tech were you interested in engineering in software or was this sort of a zigzaggy path to where you are now it wasn't a zigzaggy path I went to journalism school and studied communications and my first job out of college was during the dot-com bubble if you will and so I went into tech it was a lucrative you know career path and I fell in love with it at first it was very intimidating because I didn't speak the language but I learned the language and I learned to work with entrepreneurs I've worked with a lot of startups and translating really amazing vision into stories that anyone can understand and so that's been my pathway through tech and I'm grateful to be here and like I said I think one of the one the the mission of the chasing Grace project is to recruit and retain female talent because we as an industry needs you know a diverse workforce but also women need opportunities to these types of careers they're the most lucrative careers in the world and so that economic opportunity for women as individuals and the need that we have in the industry just put underscores the need for these types of stories to be told definitely so we're at the cloud now six annual top women and cloud awards event how did you come to be involved with cloud now and what are some what if some of your perspectives of now being involved with it yeah so I met Jocelyn the founder of cloud now just a few months ago we were introduced through mutual colleagues and she watched the trailer of the chasing Grace project and said you have to come to the event I want to share your project with our community which was so amazing to hear and so I'm super grateful to be here and to be sharing the trailer a little bit later at the event as well as exhibiting for the first time our photo exhibit called persistence that accompanies the documentary so we will host a photo exhibit at every screening of each episode and that will grow over time as more and more women are photographed for the project but the very first showing is here at the event so we were really excited to be able to do that exciting yeah so uses a six-part series correct when can people expect to start seeing episodes so the first episode is is expected around the end of February 18 2018 exactly we're in post-production now on Episode one we shot it a couple weeks ago and we're already planning episode 2 and when our shoot will be in early probably the first two three months of the year so we expect to release episodes every eight to twelve weeks so that people kind of stay connected and and we can bridge episode to episode for example the first episodes on the pay gap the second episode we think may be on female founders and there's a bridge between women who feel like they aren't being paid fairly to wanting to become the owners of their own companies so they can determine their own worth so so we want to make sure there's continuity in the episodes so as you've gone through and and you said interviewed 100 plus women in the last year what are some of the things that inspire you with the chasing grace project that you feel like we're gonna make a difference here yeah I'm inspired by the courage of these women you know there's so much more awareness about women in tech now among both men and women but a lot of times when women speak up they become that women in the office you know that woman who you know is talking and causing trouble and complaining and that's not the case these women are sharing stories that are important for all of us to understand to build a better future through technology so I'm inspired by their courage because it's no small thing to go on camera and talk about your personal story in hopes that it can help other women and help men also be a part of that conversation so I'm inspired by the courage of the women and that's you know I get notes now you know back from women who are part of the project when they see something go live the trailer the photo exhibit today that are just like I'm so excited to be a part of this and I feel empowered and I found my voice I didn't even know I had a story most the time they tell me and they do so I mean I'm inspired by that I love that and it's so great that that they're not intimidated that they are feeling empowered that they have a voice mm-hmm they matter and what they're doing should be valued there should be no differences would be great if we actually get to a world where there aren't it right we're headed there being more attention and eyes to it thank you I'll get there Thank You Jennifer thank you so much for joining my pleasure where can people find once that the episodes go live where can they find the chasing grace episode they can find them at chasing grace film calm we will have an exclusive media partnership or they will also be distributed online but they can always find them on our website excellent well I'm looking forward to watching it I thank you for sharing your story and for inspiring I'll say inspiring me and probably many of our viewers thanks so much thank you for having me I'm Lisa Martin on the ground with the Cuba Google for the cloud now top lemon and clouds award event stick around we'll be right back

>> Announcer: From San Francisco, it's the Cube, covering Samsung Developer Conference 2017, brought to you by Samsung. (electronic music) >> Hello, everyone, welcome back, live here in San Franscisco, Moscone West. This is the Cube's exclusive coverage of Samsung's Developer Conference. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media, cohost here in the Cube. My next guest is Paris Rain, recording artist, innovator, working with Stan Lee, music projects. What's exciting about this event is that you have such exciting new lifestyle trends happening and this one here's a great story. Welcome to the Cube. >> Thank you very much. It's nice being here with everybody. >> You look fabulous, you're a superhero. Tell us the story, because one of the things that's super compelling about your projects you're working on, and your innovation, is the convergence of culture. You've got Comic Con kind of culture integrated with music, online services, digital communities, and now new products are being developed, new experiences, AR, VR, the new vibe is out there. Tell your story. >> Well, we just thought, why not? So what happened was, my manager had a really close relationship to Stan and he basically showed Stan my music and said, "Hey, this girl's talented," and then we got to talking and we were like, "Why don't we integrate Stan into the music business?" He took over the movie industry, why doesn't he take over the music industry as well? >> And so Marvel obviously absolutely hits a home run, the comics, but this is now also a digital life, and so people look at all the successes, certainly the movies. >> Absolutely, yeah, that would be the biggest. >> I was a comic kid when I was growing up. But the movies have just been spectacular. One sequel after the other. Gaming now is part of the movie scene, so gaming culture is huge, and you're doing a game with Samsung, that's something you've got going on, what's that about? >> I can't say too much about it, to be honest with you, but we're in preparation with Samsung on this new, innovative, high tech, app that's coming out, and it's going to be integrated to, I mean, everything's going to come together, it's going to have my music in it, it's going to have, Stan's going to make a cameo, in that, in the game, and in my music video as well, and yeah it's all coming together. >> So that's coming out. You can't really talk, it's under wraps, but it's an integrated project. You've been successfully into viral videos, a couple years ago that went viral on YouTube. What's that like, do you just like wake up one day and say, "Oh my God, this is going crazy?" >> It kind of happened like that with YouTube. Because you do it all yourself. I worked with Afflux Studios, it's in Wellington. They're a really awesome studio, super high tech and I got kind of an in, they're kind of family to me, and so it was kind of ... It was really easy to get with them anyway so we were like, "Hey, I did the blue hair thing." And I was like, "You know what? "I'm set on going viral, this is what I want to do." And the first video I put out, bitch better have-- B better have my money. (John laughs) By Rihanna. >> We're the internet. You can say whatever you want. >> Oh, fuck it. Bitch better have my money. Oh shit, really, I can swear? Oh I feel so much more comfortable now. On stage, I felt so ... So yeah, "Bitch Better Have My Money" came out and it got like 1.5 million, or 1.3 million views, and then I did another video and it got another 1.3 million. >> All right, so what happens after, because everyone wants to know. 'Cause everyone tries to engineer viral, and you can't really engineer viral, 'cause viral is one of those things where-- >> Dye your hair blue, sell your soul. >> (laughs) Okay, you sold your soul. Who bought it? The Devil? (laughs) >> The Devil, yeah, the Devil bought it. No. >> Well, you got to tell. >> No, for real, like honest talk right now. What you have to do is go on the top charts and pick one of your favorites, something that is completely not you, or you, but you have to do it a different way, so what we did, was I work with a producer who's super awesome, his name's Arcaeus, and we remixed it. And you know how remixes are huge? So we were like, "Why don't we do a remix cover?" and then it blew up and that's what happened. >> So now that you're on Stan's radar, he's got the whole, you know, he's been around the block, he's a legend in the community. His success is off the charts. What's his creative mind like right now? How are you guys looking at the mark offs? You're integrating music with comics. >> With comics and with gaming, that's, I mean, you just nailed it. >> So what's the creative scene like, do you guys sit back, do you kick back? What do you talk about? >> Stan's really big on making the powers unique, and he always has been really great on making sure that the powers are unique, so that's right now, we're still in the preparation stage of everything, but we're, we want to, we're prepping with Marvel right now. I have to say all the right words in order to not get in trouble. >> PR handled. (they laugh) >> We're prepping with Marvel to go into one of their storylines that I can't say. I can't say too much. >> Yeah. All these licensing things are going on. I've always been fascinated with how it's about time that the comics and Marvel really start expanding and start franchising the gaming because we were talking yesterday with one of the guests influencers about how the gaming culture really is a precursor to how life is evolving. You got multiplayer, it is virtual, you got virtual currencies, you have things happen on gaming, so it's a natural extension to move into gaming. How does the music piece, I mean, do you guys have licensing stuff? You must have to get authorizations. Is it indie, what's ... >> Well, it would be my music that's on the game. >> So you're doing your own music for the game. >> So I'd just be paying myself, essentially. >> You're licensing your movie? >> Yeah. >> All right. So here's another question for you. What's the weirdest thing that's happened to you in the past year? >> This interview right here. No, I'm just joking. >> (laughs) It's great for me too. >> No, it's Stan calling me up and saying, "Hey, I want to make you a superhero." That's the weirdest thing I've ever gone through. >> What's it like in the L.A. scene for you? >> I don't go to L.A. too much. I don't, but I am moving out there next month, so I will be in the L.A. scene. The L.A. scene's crazy, from what I've seen, from what I've seen about the scene. Yeah, it's crazy. >> So what's the plans for you and Stan the next couple months? What are you guys going to be working on, heading down, doing the tour, creative-- >> I think we're going to a couple Comic Cons. Potentially getting inducted into the music industry by a big player in the hiphop culture who, I can't say his name. There's a lot of big things, but it's mainly just preparation right now, we're just talking about everything, what we all want to do, and making sure that the gaming app with Samsung, which is why we're here today, it's like that's a huge thing, Jackie, Jacqueline Chow whose mobile game, it's a mobile game, so the game, the music, and hopefully eventually movies, but and the comic books, oh! You know what I think is really cool? I think that we're going to do a comic book on like a tablet version or a mobile version of the comic books, and I don't know if you've seen, I forget what it's called, but it's like a tilt screen comic book that's really, it's really innovative? I'll have to show you the app after, but it's, I think we're going to do something like that, 'cause people don't buy comic books, people don't buy books, they don't go to the store, they don't go to the library, I mean, I do, but they don't, you know? They go on their phone and they pay for it. >> Phone is where the action is, for the kids. All right, so what's exciting you these days? Obviously, you must be pretty pumped. Things are rocking. >> Yeah. >> What's on your mind these days? >> What's on my mind these days? >> Yeah, what are you excited about? >> Sitting beside Stan and just talking about this stuff. Honestly, performing, I'm super excited about the show, 'cause I want the show to be, I mean, if I'm a superhero, it's got to be heroic. >> Can you share your superpowers? What's the ... >> I can't! I can't, but I am a singer so I think obviously we're going to roll with the singing 'cause I think, I mean, naturally singing, performing, I think is almost like a human superpower that we have. >> So what's the event? Give us your take on the event here. Obviously Samsung is a big part, and congratulations, nice gig to have there. Congratulations, so you've got the app coming on, we'll dig into that, we'll look forward to the news when it comes out. But the vibe here, this developer community. We see high school kids here, I saw some eight year olds here. I mean, this is like an awesome developer conference. >> It is! When I was on stage with Stan, it was like, we had five minutes left, and I was kind of, you know, we had gone through all of the questions that we'd prepared, and I was like, "Hey, guys, if anyone "has any questions, please raise your hand," or whatever, and just kids, it was all, it was like mostly kids at first and then the adults are like, oh well we can do too, but the kids were like, "Stan, what do you think about DC?" and he was like, "DC who?" It was hilarious. >> So next year, "Rain, what do you think about ..." So you're going to be popular, congratulations. Thank you for coming on and chatting with me. This was great, with Rain Paris, here at the Cube live, from San Francisco for SDC, you got games coming out, music converging with comics, this is the culture. More after this short break. (electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live, from Orlando, Florida, it's theCube, covering Grace Hopper Celebration of Women in Computing. Brought to you by SiliconAngle Media. >> Welcome back to theCube's coverage of Grace Hopper Conference here in Orlando, Florida, I'm your host, Rebecca Knight. We have a great panel here today, we have three guests. We have Hilary Burns and Caroline Lester, both Reporting Fellows for the GroundTruth Project, and Tori Bedford, who is a Field Producer for the GroundTruth Project. It's great to have you guys on here. >> Thank you for having us. >> Thank you. >> So, I'll start with you, Tori, since you were a reporting fellow last year at the Grace Hopper Conference, tell our viewers what the GroundTruth Project is, and what your mission is. >> So, the GroundTruth Project is a non-profit based in Boston and it hopes to encourage young journalists and earlier-career journalists all around the world. So there is a series of fellowships going on, pretty much at all times. Different projects, there's one going across America right now that's looking at, it's called Crossing the Divide, it's looking at divides in America. It's a very divisive time for American politics so they're doing stories about that. And, obviously, we are re-upping our women in tech, women in leadership fellowship this year which we're really excited about. >> And so, each of you are working on your own, individual stories and then you will get back to Boston and produce. So, Hilary, let's hear from you, what are you working on here, what's your topic? >> Sure, so most of my time spend at the Grace Hopper Celebration so far has been spent talking with student about their career aspirations, any barriers they foresee, coming across any concerns they have about entering a male-dominated industry. And it's really been fascinating hearing their stories, some of them are international students, others are from universities all over the world and including Canada and the U.S. So, it's been very inspirational to hear. >> So, but here the ones that are aspiring to careers in technology and they're here at Grace Hopper, but there must be other ones who are too discouraged so they're not here. Are you also getting that angle, too? >> Well, I think it's important for that group of women to see these women who do feel empowered and are, a lot of them use phrases like, "We are making a difference in the gender gap "and if I don't do it, who else will do it?" So, I think it's important for all aspiring technologists to hear these women's stories. >> Are they discouraged, though? Because the headlines are bleak, I mean, we know that it's the numbers, but it's also the Google manifesto, it's the shenanigans of Travis Kalanick and people like him in Silicon Valley. What do they make of that? >> It's interesting, all of them are very intelligent, very aware of what's going on in the world. I've heard a mixed bag of responses from, "I try not to "read too much because I don't want to go in expecting "and having my own biases, I want to see for myself." Others are saying, "Yeah, I am nervous and I want to see "more women creating a path that I can then follow." So, I think there are a lot of people that are optimistically optimistic about their future. >> Cautiously optimistic. >> Thank you. Thank you for correcting me. (laughs) But, it's been interesting to hear all the different perspectives. >> Great, Caroline, how about you, what are you working on? >> Yeah, so, I am personally interested in the more personal stories of some of these women speaking at the conference. I've talked to the four really, wonderful, inspirational women. So, one of my favorites, I've just published a story on her, Chieko Asakawa, who is an IBM Fellow which is the highest honor you can receive at IBM. And she went blind at the age of 11, and has spent her life programming and creating programs and tools to help the blind access the world that is pretty hard to navigate if you don't have eyesight. So, she is super inspirational, super smart, super funny. So, it was a pleasure talking with her. And then I'm talking with three other women, Yasmine Mustafa, who started something called Roar for Good. >> Rebecca: We've had her on the show. >> Oh, you did? >> Yeah. >> Wonderful, great. So, she's fantastic, I'm really glad you covered her. And then another woman named Sarah Echohawk, who, sort of, is an advocate, an activist and is getting more and young, native women involved in STEM. And then, finally, I'll be talking with Stephanie Lampkin of Blendoor, who started this wonderful app to try and overcome the implicit bias, and unconscious bias that happens when people are hiring women or people of color in recruiting for them. >> So she's starting this app that she will then sell to companies, or sell to other recruiters? >> So, she's already started it and she has a lot of major tech companies involved. I think Airbnb uses it, I want to say SalesForce uses it, you're going to have to check me on that one. But she's got about 5,000 people on it right now. >> Wow, so the goal of these stories is to inspire other women by their success. >> Exactly, so these are four radically different women coming into tech in radically different ways and it's just really incredible to see how they've managed to overcome all sorts of obstacles in their way. And not only overcome them, but, sort of, utilize them to their advantage and stake out a place for themselves in this industry. >> Great, Tori, what are the projects that you are working on here? >> So, we've been hearing a lot about diversity, diversity is so important, and we've been hearing about how increasing diversity in a company makes your company better. It just brings in more perspectives, and it also, what's really interesting is that, in tech, it can catch people who have a diverse range of perspectives, can catch problems with products, or with a code, or with something, and how it would be implemented out into the world. I caught this really interesting panel yesterday about disability and looking at how people with disabilities can make companies, specifically tech companies, can help to improve them. This woman, Jennifer Jong, who is an Accessibility Program Manager at Microsoft, she was really interesting. She was talking about how, I wrote a piece on this yesterday, she's talking about how, when you bring people in with a disability, how they can catch things that other people just don't see or wouldn't normally notice. And also how, when we create things for those with disabilities, you know, a lot of things that have been implemented by the Americans with Disabilities Act. She talked about the button that you press to go through the door, how it can also be used by people who don't have disabilities and how it's important to create things that can be used by everybody, but that have inclusion in mind. >> So, why is that true? What is her perspective on why people with disabilities have this special ways to detect blind spots? >> So, if you're creating something, there's no way that you can know how many users are going to be interacting with it, there's no way that you can predict that a person with a disability won't be using it, and so it's diversity, it's really important to bring in different perspectives. So, they had talked about a video, a really beautiful, promotional video that showed a range of visuals, it was very effective but it had no sound and a blind person wouldn't get anything out of it. And so, it's like looking at a product, you need somebody to be in the room, just like you want women and people of color and a range of ethnicities, you want diversity, you want someone to be able to say, "This isn't going to work for me, this isn't going "to work for my child, this isn't going to work "for a range of people." And that's a really effective and important thing that ultimately saves your company's bottom line, because then, you won't have to go back and change your product in the future. >> And fix it, fix it as a problem. >> Right, you'll spend more money fixing your product than you would if you had just talked about, had inclusion and diversity, if you'd just considered that from the get-go, you'll ultimately save your company more money. >> So, the question for the three of you, really, is that as you said, we hear so much about the importance of diversity and of getting a variety of perspectives, and having people of different genders, and races, and cultures feel included and having a voice at the table, I just want to know, I mean, do companies really feel this way or is that what they say at Grace Hopper because this is what makes sense to say to their target audience? >> It's totally possible that it's just a marketing ploy, it's totally possible that they're realizing that half the population makes money and can do things, and that makes more money. I mean, a lot of tech is driven by the bottom line, it's driven by financials, but in the case of the disability thing, it's like, it almost doesn't matter. It is not only the right thing to do, if you need a financial incentive, that's not good. Obviously, it's the right thing to do so you should be doing it for that reason, but if you do also have a financial incentive, that's not bad. And if we're, sort of, driving more towards empowering women and giving women a voice and allowing women to do things and taking them seriously, ultimately that's not a bad thing. >> And just to add to that, I think there is a lot of research out there today, for example, having more women on corporate boards, that that does impact the bottom line and, obviously, that's what companies are most concerned about. So, I think that companies are starting to realize that having that diversity and inclusion is good for business as well as a marketing ploy. >> And I think, I mean, just to add, I also think that, you know, whether or not this is a good thing, I think companies do realize that that is important. And they're realizing that it's necessary, I don't know, it's necessary to impact the bottom line and that is something that, whether or not we like it, it is the most convincing factor for many of these companies. >> I think it's also, when you have women moving up to positions of power, to the C-Suite, to positions of leadership, they understand that women are people with skills and they are the ones who are, you know, hiring more women, and that ultimately helps the bottom line. So, as you have more and more women moving higher and higher to the top, that's when, like when we talk about the companies changing, that's because women are changing. And they're changing the perspectives of men and everybody else in between that works at the company. >> Are women changing? I mean, I think that's a question, too, is that we're all as collectively as a society, becoming more aware that these biases exist in hiring and recruitment practices. But, I think that's the question, are women starting to change, too, the way they behave in the workplace, the way they go about managing their careers? >> I know it's changing minds, like other peoples' minds. >> That's a really interesting question, though. One student I talked to who was from India, talked about the gender discrimination she has faced. And she said she did change how she acted, she shut down all emotions, she took any emotion out of her responses because her colleagues would say, "Oh, you're a woman, "you're so emotional," and she was tired of that. So, it's an interesting question to look at. I don't know, I don't have the data in front of me but it would be interesting to look into that. >> Yeah, great, that's the next GroundTruth project. Excellent, well Hilary, Caroline, Tori, thanks so much for being on theCube, we've had great fun talking to you. >> Yes, thanks for having us. >> Thank you. >> We will have more from the Orange County Convention Center, the Grace Hopper Celebration of Women in Computing, just after this. (upbeat music)

(intro music) >> "theCUBE's" live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies, creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> We're not going to- >> Hey everybody, welcome back to the Fira in Barcelona. My name is Dave Vellante, I'm here with Dave Nicholson, day four of MWC23. I mean, it's Dave, it's, it's still really busy. And you walking the floors, you got to stop and start. >> It's surprising. >> People are cheering. They must be winding down, giving out the awards. Really excited. Pier, look at you and Elias here. He's the vice president of Engineering Technology for Edge Computing Offers Strategy and Execution at Dell Technologies, and he's joined by Dan Cummins, who's a fellow and vice president of, in the Edge Business Unit at Dell Technologies. Guys, welcome. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> I love when I see the term fellow. You know, you don't, they don't just give those away. What do you got to do to be a fellow at Dell? >> Well, you know, fellows are senior technical leaders within Dell. And they're usually tasked to help Dell solve you know, a very large business challenge to get to a fellow. There's only, I think, 17 of them inside of Dell. So it is a small crowd. You know, previously, really what got me to fellow, is my continued contribution to transform Dell's mid-range business, you know, VNX two, and then Unity, and then Power Store, you know, and then before, and then after that, you know, they asked me to come and, and help, you know, drive the technology vision for how Dell wins at the Edge. >> Nice. Congratulations. Now, Pierluca, I'm looking at this kind of cool chart here which is Edge, Edge platform by Dell Technologies, kind of this cube, like cubes course, you know. >> AK project from here. >> Yeah. So, so tell us about the Edge platform. What, what's your point of view on all that at Dell? >> Yeah, absolutely. So basically in a, when we create the Edge, and before even then was bringing aboard, to create this vision of the platform, and now building the platform when we announced project from here, was to create solution for the Edge. Dell has been at the edge for 30 years. We sold a lot of compute. But the reality was people want outcome. And so, and the Edge is a new market, very exciting, but very siloed. And so people at the Edge have different personas. So quickly realize that we need to bring in Dell, people with expertise, quickly realize as well that doing all these solution was not enough. There was a lot of problem to solve because the Edge is outside of the data center. So you are outside of the wall of the data center. And what is going to happen is obviously you are in the land of no one. And so you have million of device, thousand of million of device. All of us at home, we have all connected thing. And so we understand that the, the capability of Dell was to bring in technology to secure, manage, deploy, with zero touch, zero trust, the Edge. And all the edge the we're speaking about right now, we are focused on everything that is outside of a normal data center. So, how we married the computer that we have for many years, the new gateways that we create, so having the best portfolio, number one, having the best solution, but now, transforming the way that people deploy the Edge, and secure the Edge through a software platform that we create. >> You mentioned Project Frontier. I like that Dell started to do these sort of project, Project Alpine was sort of the multi-cloud storage. I call it "The Super Cloud." The Project Frontier. It's almost like you develop, it's like mission based. Like, "Okay, that's our North Star." People hear Project Frontier, they know, you know, internally what you're talking about. Maybe use it for external communications too, but what have you learned since launching Project Frontier? What's different about the Edge? I mean you're talking about harsh environments, you're talking about new models of connectivity. So, what have you learned from Project Frontier? What, I'd love to hear the fellow perspective as well, and what you guys are are learning so far. >> Yeah, I mean start and then I left to them, but we learn a lot. The first thing we learn that we are on the right path. So that's good, because every conversation we have, there is nobody say to us, you know, "You are crazy. "This is not needed." Any conversation we have this week, start with the telco thing. But after five minutes it goes to, okay, how I can solve the Edge, how I can bring the compute near where the data are created, and how I can do that secure at scale, and with the right price. And then can speak about how we're doing that. >> Yeah, yeah. But before that, we have to really back up and understand what Dell is doing with Project Frontier, which is an Edge operations platform, to simplify your Edge use cases. Now, Pierluca and his team have a number of verticalized applications. You want to be able to securely deploy those, you know, at the Edge. But you need a software platform that's going to simplify both the life cycle management, and the security at the Edge, with the ability to be able to construct and deploy distributed applications. Customers are looking to derive value near the point of generation of data. We see a massive explosion of data. But in particular, what's different about the Edge, is the different computing locations, and the constraints that are on those locations. You know, for example, you know, in a far Edge environment, the people that service that equipment are not trained in the IT, or train, trained in it. And they're also trained in the safety and security protocols of that environment. So you necessarily can't apply the same IT techniques when you're managing infrastructure and deploying applications, or servicing in those locations. So Frontier was designed to solve for those constraints. You know, often we see competitors that are doing similar things, that are starting from an IT mindset, and trying to shift down to cover Edge use cases. What we've done with Frontier, is actually first understood the constraints that they have at the Edge. Both the operational constraints and technology constraints, the service constraints, and then came up with a, an architecture and technology platform that allows them to start from the Edge, and bleed into the- >> So I'm laughing because you guys made the same mistake. And you, I think you learned from that mistake, right? You used to take X86 boxes and throw 'em over the fence. Now, you're building purpose-built systems, right? Project Frontier I think is an example of the learnings. You know, you guys an IT company, right? Come on. But you're learning fast, and that's what I'm impressed about. >> Well Glenn, of course we're here at MWC, so it's all telecom, telecom, telecom, but really, that's a subset of Edge. >> Yes. >> Fair to say? >> Yes. >> Can you give us an example of something that is, that is, orthogonal to, to telecom, you know, maybe off to the side, that maybe overlaps a little bit, but give us an, give us an example of Edge, that isn't specifically telecom focused. >> Well, you got the, the Edge verticals. and Pierluca could probably speak very well to this. You know, you got manufacturing, you got retail, you got automotive, you got oil and gas. Every single one of them are going to make different choices in the software that they're going to use, the hyperscaler investments that they're going to use, and then write some sort of automation, you know, to deploy that, right? And the Edge is highly fragmented across all of these. So we certainly could deploy a private wireless 5G solution, orchestrate that deployment through Frontier. We can also orchestrate other use cases like connected worker, or overall equipment effectiveness in manufacturing. But Pierluca you have a, you have a number. >> Well, but from your, so, but just to be clear, from your perspective, the whole idea of, for example, private 5g, it's a feature- >> Yes. >> That might be included. It happened, it's a network topology, a network function that might be a feature of an Edge environment. >> Yes. But it's not the center of the discussion. >> So, it enables the outcome. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> So this, this week is a clear example where we confirm and establish this. The use case, as I said, right? They, you say correctly, we learned very fast, right? We brought people in that they came from industry that was not IT industry. We brought people in with the things, and we, we are Dell. So we have the luxury to be able to interview hundreds of customers, that just now they try to connect the OT with the IT together. And so what we learn, is really, at the Edge is different personas. They person that decide what to do at the Edge, is not the normal IT administrator, is not the normal telco. >> Who is it? Is it an engineer, or is it... >> It's, for example, the store manager. >> Yeah. >> It's, for example, the, the person that is responsible for the manufacturing process. Those people are not technology people by any means. But they have a business goal in mind. Their goal is, "I want to raise my productivity by 30%," hence, I need to have a preventive maintenance solution. How we prescribe this preventive maintenance solution? He doesn't prescribe the preventive maintenance solution. He goes out, he has to, a consult or himself, to deploy that solution, and he choose different fee. Now, the example that I was doing from the houses, all of us, we have connected device. The fact that in my house, I have a solar system that produce energy, the only things I care that I can read, how much energy I produce on my phone, and how much energy I send to get paid back. That's the only thing. The fact that inside there is a compute that is called Dell or other things is not important to me. Same persona. Now, if I can solve the security challenge that the SI, or the user need to implement this technology because it goes everywhere. And I can manage this in extensively, and I can put the supply chain of Dell on top of that. And I can go every part in the world, no matter if I have in Papua New Guinea, or I have an oil ring in Texas, that's the winning strategy. That's why people, they are very interested to the, including Telco, the B2B business in telco is looking very, very hard to how they recoup the investment in 5g. One of the way, is to reach out with solution. And if I can control and deploy things, more than just SD one or other things, or private mobility, that's the key. >> So, so you have, so you said manufacturing, retail, automotive, oil and gas, you have solutions for each of those, or you're building those, or... >> Right now we have solution for manufacturing, with for example, PTC. That is the biggest company. It's actually based in Boston. >> Yeah. Yeah, it is. There's a company that the market's just coming right to them. >> We have a, very interesting. Another solution with Litmus, that is a startup that, that also does manufacturing aggregation. We have retail with Deep North. So we can do detecting in the store, how many people they pass, how many people they doing, all of that. And all theses solution that will be, when we will have Frontier in the market, will be also in Frontier. We are also expanding to energy, and we going vertical by vertical. But what is they really learn, right? You said, you know you are an IT company. What, to me, the Edge is a pre virtualization area. It's like when we had, you know, I'm, I've been in the company for 24 years coming from EMC. The reality was before there was virtualization, everybody was starting his silo. Nobody thought about, "Okay, I can run this thing together "with security and everything, "but I need to do it." Because otherwise in a manufacturing, or in a shop, I can end up with thousand of devices, just because someone tell to me, I'm a, I'm a store manager, I don't know better. I take this video surveillance application, I take these things, I take a, you know, smart building solution, suddenly I have five, six, seven different infrastructure to run this thing because someone say so. So we are here to democratize the Edge, to secure the Edge, and to expand. That's the idea. >> So, the Frontier platform is really the horizontal platform. And you'll build specific solutions for verticals. On top of that, you'll, then I, then the beauty is ISV's come in. >> Yes. >> 'Cause it's open, and the developers. >> We have a self certification program already for our solution, as well, for the current solution, but also for Frontier. >> What does that involve? Self-certification. You go through you, you go through some- >> It's basically a, a ISV can come. We have a access to a lab, they can test the thing. If they pass the first screen, then they can become part of our ecosystem very easily. >> Ah. >> So they don't need to spend days or months with us to try to architect the thing. >> So they get the premature of being certified. >> They get the Dell brand associated with it. Maybe there's some go-to-market benefits- >> Yes. >> As well. Cool. What else do we need to know? >> So, one thing I, well one thing I just want to stress, you know, when we say horizontal platform, really, the Edge is really a, a distributed edge computing problem, right? And you need to almost create a mesh of different computing locations. So for example, even though Dell has Edge optimized infrastructure, that we're going to deploy and lifecycle manage, customers may also have compute solutions, existing compute solutions in their data center, or at a co-location facility that are compute destinations. Project Frontier will connect to those private cloud stacks. They'll also collect to, connect to multiple public cloud stacks. And then, what they can do, is the solutions that we talked about, they construct that using an open based, you know, protocol, template, that describes that distributed application that produces that outcome. And then through orchestration, we can then orchestrate across all of these locations to produce that outcome. That's what the platform's doing. >> So it's a compute mesh, is what you just described? >> Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a software orchestration mesh. >> Okay. >> Right. And allows customers to take advantage of their existing investments. Also allows them to, to construct solutions based on the ISV of their choice. We're offering solutions like Pierluca had talked about, you know, in manufacturing with Litmus and PTC, but they could put another use case that's together based on another ISV. >> Is there a data mesh analog here? >> The data mesh analog would run on top of that. We don't offer that as part of Frontier today, but we do have teams working inside of Dell that are working on this technology. But again, if there's other data mesh technology or packages, that they want to deploy as a solution, if you will, on top of Frontier, Frontier's extensible in that way as well. >> The open nature of Frontier is there's a, doesn't, doesn't care. It's just a note on the mesh. >> Yeah. >> Right. Now, of course you'd rather, you'd ideally want it to be Dell technology, and you'll make the business case as to why it should be. >> They get additional benefits if it's Dell. Pierluca talked a lot about, you know, deploying infrastructure outside the walls of an IT data center. You know, this stuff can be tampered with. Somebody can move it to another room, somebody can open up. In the supply chain with, you know, resellers that are adding additional people, can open these devices up. We're actually deploying using an Edge technology called Secure Device Onboarding. And it solves a number of things for us. We, as a manufacturer can initialize the roots of trust in the Dell hardware, such that we can validate, you know, tamper detection throughout the supply chain, and securely transfer ownership. And that's different. That is not an IT technique. That's an edge technique. And that's just one example. >> That's interesting. I've talked to other people in IT about how they're using that technique. So it's, it's trickling over to that side of the business. >> I'm almost curious about the friction that you, that you encounter because the, you know, you paint a picture of a, of a brave new world, a brave new future. Ideally, in a healthy organization, they have, there's a CTO, or at least maybe a CIO, with a CTO mindset. They're seeking to leverage technology in the service of whatever the mission of the organization is. But they've got responsibilities to keep the lights on, as well as innovate. In that mix, what are you seeing as the inhibitors? What's, what's the push back against Frontier that you're seeing in most cases? Is it, what, what is it? >> Inside of Dell? >> No, not, I'm saying out, I'm saying with- >> Market friction. >> Market, market, market friction. What is the push back? >> I think, you know, as I explained, do yourself is one of the things that probably is the most inhibitor, because some people, they think that they are better already. They invest a lot in this, and they have the content. But those are again, silo solutions. So, if you go into some of the huge things that they already established, thousand of store and stuff like that, there is an opportunity there, because also they want to have a refresh cycle. So when we speak about softer, softer, softer, when you are at the Edge, the software needs to run on something that is there. So the combination that we offer about controlling the security of the hardware, plus the operating system, and provide an end-to-end platform, allow them to solve a lot of problems that today they doing by themselves. Now, I met a lot of customers, some of them, one actually here in Spain, I will not make the name, but it's a large automotive. They have the same challenge. They try to build, but the problem is this is just for them. And they want to use something that is a backup and provide with the Dell service, Dell capability of supply chain in all the world, and the diversity of the portfolio we have. These guys right now, they need to go out and find different types of compute, or try to adjust thing, or they need to have 20 people there to just prepare the device. We will take out all of this. So I think the, the majority of the pushback is about people that they already established infrastructure, and they want to use that. But really, there is an opportunity here. Because the, as I said, the IT/OT came together now, it's a reality. Three years ago when we had our initiative, they've pointed out, sarcastically. We, we- >> Just trying to be honest. (laughing) >> I can't let you get away with that. >> And we, we failed because it was too early. And we were too focused on, on the fact to going. Push ourself to the boundary of the IOT. This platform is open. You want to run EdgeX, you run EdgeX, you want OpenVINO, you want Microsoft IOT, you run Microsoft IOT. We not prescribe the top. We are locking down the bottom. >> What you described is the inertia of, of sunk dollars, or sunk euro into an infrastructure, and now they're hanging onto that. >> Yeah. >> But, I mean, you know, I, when we say horizontal, we think scale, we think low cost, at volume. That will, that will win every time. >> There is a simplicity at scale, right? There is a, all the thing. >> And the, and the economics just overwhelm that siloed solution. >> And >> That's inevitable. >> You know, if you want to apply security across the entire thing, if you don't have a best practice, and a click that you can do that, or bring down an application that you need, you need to touch each one of these silos. So, they don't know yet, but we going to be there helping them. So there is no pushback. Actually, this particular example I did, this guy said you know, there are a lot of people that come here. Nobody really described the things we went through. So we are on the right track. >> Guys, great conversation. We really appreciate you coming on "theCUBE." >> Thank you. >> Pleasure to have you both. >> Okay. >> Thank you. >> All right. And thank you for watching Dave Vellante for Dave Nicholson. We're live at the Fira. We're winding up day four. Keep it right there. Go to siliconangle.com. John Furrier's got all the news on "theCUBE.net." We'll be right back right after this break. "theCUBE," at MWC 23. (outro music)

(electronic music) >> Hello, I'm John Furrier with SiliconANGLE News and host of theCUBE, and welcome to our news update for MWC in Barcelona, the premier event for cloud and to the telecommunication industry. News today, VMware in the news has lots of announcements, where it's expanding its line of products for communication service providers with Open RAND portfolio VMware's unveiled service management orchestration framework for simplifying and automating radio access networks and their applications. RANDs have traditionally been proprietary because of their need for low latency and speed and the Overran Alliance is championed open standard that would expand the number of players in the RAND ecosystem. According to Sanjay Oppai, senior vice president and general manager of the service provider and Edge Business Unit at VMware, VMware is the forefront of getting deployed in telcos both in the RAND as well as the core and VMware hopes they can extend their leadership from the enterprise data center and SD WAN and be the defacto standard in the RAND. VMware is also announcing a technical preview that'll allow communications service providers to run disaggregated and virtualized RAND functions directly on bare metal servers using VMware Tanzu. Project Hui is the initiative aimed at telecom providers that need flexibility in how they deploy edge devices. The VMware Telco cloud platform is also being improved to deliver carrier grade intelligent networking and lateral security features such as distributed firewall and intrusion detection and prevention, along with support for energy efficient use cases for 4G and 5G core load balancing. For enterprise customers, VMware is delivering new and enhanced remote worker device connectivity and intelligent wireless capabilities to its SD WAN and Secure Access Service Edge, or SASE Products, is also expanding its collaboration with Intel aimed at delivering new edge applications based on 5G connectivity that will support SD WAN use cases involving mobile and internet of things devices. Again, VMware spinning their portfolio in the news. Again, VMware is not stopping. Of course, theCUBE's, all the coverage of VMware Explorer will be coming up this year in 2023. Don't miss that. But at mwc, Dave Vellante and Lisa Martin, the entire Cube team are there for four days of live coverage. Of course, all the news and reporting is on SiliconANGLE.com. For all the action, go there. And of course theCUBE.net is where the broadcast is in Barcelona. This is theCUBE News. Thanks for watching.

>> theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (ambient music) >> Lisa: Hey everyone, welcome back to Barcelona, Spain. It's theCUBE Live at MWC 23. Lisa Martin with Dave Vellante. This is day two of four days of cube coverage but you know that, because you've already been watching yesterday and today. We're going to have a great conversation next with EnterpriseWeb and Red Hat. We've had great conversations the last day and a half about the Telco industry, the challenges, the opportunities. We're going to unpack that from this lens. Please welcome Dave Duggal, founder and CEO of EnterpriseWeb and Azhar Sayeed is here, Senior Director Solution Architecture at Red Hat. >> Guys, it's great to have you on the program. >> Yes. >> Thank you Lisa, >> Great being here with you. >> Dave let's go ahead and start with you. Give the audience an overview of EnterpriseWeb. What kind of business is it? What's the business model? What do you guys do? >> Okay so, EnterpriseWeb is reinventing middleware, right? So the historic middleware was to build vertically integrated stacks, right? And those stacks are now such becoming the rate limiters for interoperability for so the end-to-end solutions that everybody's looking for, right? Red Hat's talking about the unified platform. You guys are talking about Supercloud, EnterpriseWeb addresses that we've built middleware based on serverless architecture, so lightweight, low latency, high performance middleware. And we're working with the world's biggest, we sell through channels and we work through partners like Red Hat Intel, Fortnet, Keysight, Tech Mahindra. So working with some of the biggest players that have recognized the value of our innovation, to deliver transformation to the Telecom industry. >> So what are you guys doing together? Is this, is this an OpenShift play? >> Is it? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, so we've got two projects right her on the floor at MWC throughout the various partners, where EnterpriseWeb is actually providing an application layer, sorry application middleware over Red Hat's, OpenShift and we're essentially generating operators so Red Hat operators, so that all our vendors, and, sorry vendors that we onboard into our catalog can be deployed easily through the OpenShift platform. And we allow those, those vendors to be flexibly composed into network services. So the real challenge for operators historically is that they, they have challenges onboarding the vendors. It takes a long time. Each one of them is a snowflake. They, you know, even though there's standards they don't all observe or follow the same standards. So we make it easier using models, right? For, in a model driven process to on boards or streamline that onboarding process, compose functions into services deploy those services seamlessly through Red Hat's OpenShift, and then manage the, the lifecycle, like the quality of service and the SLAs for those services. >> So Red Hat obviously has pretty prominent Telco business has for a while. Red Hat OpenStack actually is is pretty popular within the Telco business. People thought, "Oh, OpenStack, that's dead." Actually, no, it's actually doing quite well. We see it all over the place where for whatever reason people want to build their own cloud. And, and so, so what's happening in the industry because you have the traditional Telcos we heard in the keynotes that kind of typical narrative about, you know, we can't let the over the top vendors do this again. We're, we're going to be Apifi everything, we're going to monetize this time around, not just with connectivity but the, but the fact is they really don't have a developer community. >> Yes. >> Yet anyway. >> Then you have these disruptors over here that are saying "Yeah, we're going to enable ISVs." How do you see it? What's the landscape look like? Help us understand, you know, what the horses on the track are doing. >> Sure. I think what has happened, Dave, is that the conversation has moved a little bit from where they were just looking at IS infrastructure service with virtual machines and OpenStack, as you mentioned, to how do we move up the value chain and look at different applications. And therein comes the rub, right? You have applications with different requirements, IT network that have various different requirements that are there. So as you start to build those cloud platform, as you start to modernize those set of applications, you then start to look at microservices and how you build them. You need the ability to orchestrate them. So some of those problem statements have moved from not just refactoring those applications, but actually now to how do you reliably deploy, manage in a multicloud multi cluster way. So this conversation around Supercloud or this conversation around multicloud is very >> You could say Supercloud. That's okay >> (Dave Duggal and Azhar laughs) >> It's absolutely very real though. The reason why it's very real is, if you look at transformations around Telco, there are two things that are happening. One, Telco IT, they're looking at partnerships with hybrid cloud, I mean with public cloud players to build a hybrid environment. They're also building their own Telco Cloud environment for their network functions. Now, in both of those spaces, they end up operating two to three different environments themselves. Now how do you create a level of abstraction across those? How do you manage that particular infrastructure? And then how do you orchestrate all of those different workloads? Those are the type of problems that they're actually beginning to solve. So they've moved on from really just putting that virtualizing their application, putting it on OpenStack to now really seriously looking at "How do I build a service?" "How do I leverage the catalog that's available both in my private and public and build an overall service process?" >> And by the way what you just described as hybrid cloud and multicloud is, you know Supercloud is what multicloud should have been. And what, what it originally became is "I run on this cloud and I run on this cloud" and "I run on this cloud and I have a hybrid." And, and Supercloud is meant to create a common experience across those clouds. >> Dave Duggal: Right? >> Thanks to, you know, Supercloud middleware. >> Yeah. >> Right? And, and so that's what you guys do. >> Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Dave, I mean, even the name EnterpriseWeb, you know we started from looking from the application layer down. If you look at it, the last 10 years we've looked from the infrastructure up, right? And now everybody's looking northbound saying "You know what, actually, if I look from the infrastructure up the only thing I'll ever build is silos, right?" And those silos get in the way of the interoperability and the agility the businesses want. So we take the perspective as high level abstractions, common tools, so that if I'm a CXO, I can look down on my environments, right? When I'm really not, I honestly, if I'm an, if I'm a CEO I don't really care or CXO, I don't really care so much about my infrastructure to be honest. I care about my applications and their behavior. I care about my SLAs and my quality of service, right? Those are the things I care about. So I really want an EnterpriseWeb, right? Something that helps me connect all my distributed applications all across all of the environments. So I can have one place a consistency layer that speaks a common language. We know that there's a lot of heterogeneity down all those layers and a lot of complexity down those layers. But the business doesn't care. They don't want to care, right? They want to actually take their applications deploy them where they're the most performant where they're getting the best cost, right? The lowest and maybe sustainability concerns, all those. They want to address those problems, meet their SLAs meet their quality service. And you know what, if it's running on Amazon, great. If it's running on Google Cloud platform, great. If it, you know, we're doing one project right here that we're demonstrating here is with with Amazon Tech Mahindra and OpenShift, where we took a disaggregated 5G core, right? So this is like sort of latest telecom, you know net networking software, right? We're deploying pulling elements of that network across core, across Amazon EKS, OpenShift on Red Hat ROSA, as well as just OpenShift for cloud. And we, through a single pane of deployment and management, we deployed the elements of the 5G core across them and then connected them in an end-to-end process. That's Telco Supercloud. >> Dave Vellante: So that's an O-RAN deployment. >> Yeah that's >> So, the big advantage of that, pardon me, Dave but the big advantage of that is the customer really doesn't care where the components are being served from for them. It's a 5G capability. It happens to sit in different locations. And that's, it's, it's about how do you abstract and how do you manage all those different workloads in a cohesive way? And that's exactly what EnterpriseWeb is bringing to the table. And what we do is we abstract the underlying infrastructure which is the cloud layer. So if, because AWS operating environment is different then private cloud operating environment then Azure environment, you have the networking is set up is different in each one of them. If there is a way you can abstract all of that and present it in a common operating model it becomes a lot easier than for anybody to be able to consume. >> And what a lot of customers tell me is the way they deal with multicloud complexity is they go with mono cloud, right? And so they'll lose out on some of the best services >> Absolutely >> If best of, so that's not >> that's not ideal, but at the end of the day, agree, developers don't want to muck with all the plumbing >> Dave Duggal: Yep. >> They want to write code. >> Azhar: Correct. >> So like I come back to are the traditional Telcos leaning in on a way that they're going to enable ISVs and developers to write on top of those platforms? Or are there sort of new entrance and disruptors? And I know, I know the answer is both >> Dave Duggal: Yep. >> but I feel as though the Telcos still haven't, traditional Telcos haven't tuned in to that developer affinity, but you guys sell to them. >> What, what are you seeing? >> Yeah, so >> What we have seen is there are Telcos fall into several categories there. If you look at the most mature ones, you know they are very eager to move up the value chain. There are some smaller very nimble ones that have actually doing, they're actually doing something really interesting. For example, they've provided sandbox environments to developers to say "Go develop your applications to the sandbox environment." We'll use that to build an net service with you. I can give you some interesting examples across the globe that, where that is happening, right? In AsiaPac, particularly in Australia, ANZ region. There are a couple of providers who have who have done this, but in, in, in a very interesting way. But the challenges to them, why it's not completely open or public yet is primarily because they haven't figured out how to exactly monetize that. And, and that's the reason why. So in the absence of that, what will happen is they they have to rely on the ISV ecosystem to be able to build those capabilities which they can then bring it on as part of the catalog. But in Latin America, I was talking to one of the providers and they said, "Well look we have a public cloud, we have our own public cloud, right?" What we want do is use that to offer localized services not just bring everything in from the top >> But, but we heard from Ericson's CEO they're basically going to monetize it by what I call "gouge", the developers >> (Azhar laughs) >> access to the network telemetry as opposed to saying, "Hey, here's an open platform development on top of it and it will maybe create something like an app store and we'll take a piece of the action." >> So ours, >> to be is a better model. >> Yeah. So that's perfect. Our second project that we're showing here is with Intel, right? So Intel came to us cause they are a reputation for doing advanced automation solutions. They gave us carte blanche in their labs. So this is Intel Network Builders they said pick your partners. And we went with the Red Hat, Fort Net, Keysite this company KX doing AIML. But to address your DevX, here's Intel explicitly wants to get closer to the developers by exposing their APIs, open APIs over their infrastructure. Just like Red Hat has APIs, right? And so they can expose them northbound to developers so developers can leverage and tune their applications, right? But the challenge there is what Intel is doing at the low level network infrastructure, right? Is fundamentally complex, right? What you want is an abstraction layer where develop and this gets to, to your point Dave where you just said like "The developers just want to get their job done." or really they want to focus on the business logic and accelerate that service delivery, right? So the idea here is an EnterpriseWeb they can literally declaratively compose their services, express their intent. "I want this to run optimized for low latency. I want this to run optimized for energy consumption." Right? And that's all they say, right? That's a very high level statement. And then the run time translates it between all the elements that are participating in that service to realize the developer's intent, right? No hands, right? Zero touch, right? So that's now a movement in telecom. So you're right, it's taking a while because these are pretty fundamental shifts, right? But it's intent based networking, right? So it's almost two parts, right? One is you have to have the open APIs, right? So that the infrastructure has to expose its capabilities. Then you need abstractions over the top that make it simple for developers to take, you know, make use of them. >> See, one of the demonstrations we are doing is around AIOps. And I've had literally here on this floor, two conversations around what I call as network as a platform. Although it sounds like a cliche term, that's exactly what Dave was describing in terms of exposing APIs from the infrastructure and utilizing them. So once you get that data, then now you can do analytics and do machine learning to be able to build models and figure out how you can orchestrate better how you can monetize better, how can how you can utilize better, right? So all of those things become important. It's just not about internal optimization but it's also about how do you expose it to third party ecosystem to translate that into better delivery mechanisms or IOT capability and so on. >> But if they're going to charge me for every API call in the network I'm going to go broke (team laughs) >> And I'm going to get really pissed. I mean, I feel like, I'm just running down, Oracle. IBM tried it. Oracle, okay, they got Java, but they don't they don't have developer jobs. VMware, okay? They got Aria. EMC used to have a thing called code. IBM had to buy Red Hat to get to the developer community. (Lisa laughs) >> So I feel like the telcos don't today have those developer shops. So, so they have to partner. [Azhar] Yes. >> With guys like you and then be more open and and let a zillion flowers bloom or else they're going to get disrupted in a big way and they're going to it's going to be a repeat of the over, over the top in, in in a different model that I can't predict. >> Yeah. >> Absolutely true. I mean, look, they cannot be in the connectivity business. Telcos cannot be just in the connectivity business. It's, I think so, you know, >> Dave Vellante: You had a fry a frozen hand (Dave Daggul laughs) >> off that, you know. >> Well, you know, think about they almost have to go become over the top on themselves, right? That's what the cloud guys are doing, right? >> Yeah. >> They're riding over their backbone that by taking a creating a high level abstraction, they in turn abstract away the infrastructure underneath them, right? And that's really the end game >> Right? >> Dave Vellante: Yeah. >> Is because now, >> they're over the top it's their network, it's their infrastructure, right? They don't want to become bid pipes. >> Yep. >> Now you, they can take OpenShift, run that in any cloud. >> Yep. >> Right? >> You can run that in hybrid cloud, enterprise web can do the application layer configuration and management. And together we're running, you know, OSI layers one through seven, east to west, north to south. We're running across the the RAN, the core and the transport. And that is telco super cloud, my friend. >> Yeah. Well, >> (Dave Duggal laughs) >> I'm dominating the conversation cause I love talking super cloud. >> I knew you would. >> So speaking of super superpowers, when you're in customer or prospective customer conversations with providers and they've got, obviously they're they're in this transformative state right now. How, what do you describe as the superpower between Red Hat and EnterpriseWeb in terms of really helping these Telcos transforms. But at the end of the day, the connectivity's there the end user gets what they want, which is I want this to work wherever I am. >> Yeah, yeah. That's a great question, Lisa. So I think the way you could look at it is most software has, has been evolved to be specialized, right? So in Telcos' no different, right? We have this in the enterprise, right? All these specialized stacks, all these components that they wire together in the, in you think of Telco as a sort of a super set of enterprise problems, right? They have all those problems like magnified manyfold, right? And so you have specialized, let's say orchestrators and other tools for every Telco domain for every Telco layer. Now you have a zoo of orchestrators, right? None of them were designed to work together, right? They all speak a specific language, let's say quote unquote for doing a specific purpose. But everything that's interesting in the 21st century is across layers and across domains, right? If a siloed static application, those are dead, right? Nobody's doing those anymore. Even developers don't do those developers are doing composition today. They're not doing, nobody wants to hear about a 6 million lines of code, right? They want to hear, "How did you take these five things and bring 'em together for productive use?" >> Lisa: Right. How did you deliver faster for my enterprise? How did you save me money? How did you create business value? And that's what we're doing together. >> I mean, just to add on to Dave, I was talking to one of the providers, they have more than 30,000 nodes in their infrastructure. When I say no to your servers running, you know, Kubernetes,running open stack, running different components. If try managing that in one single entity, if you will. Not possible. You got to fragment, you got to segment in some way. Now the question is, if you are not exposing that particular infrastructure and the appropriate KPIs and appropriate things, you will not be able to efficiently utilize that across the board. So you need almost a construct that creates like a manager of managers, a hierarchical structure, which would allow you to be more intelligent in terms of how you place those, how you manage that. And so when you ask the question about what's the secret sauce between the two, well this is exactly where EnterpriseWeb brings in that capability to analyze information, be more intelligent about it. And what we do is provide an abstraction of the cloud layer so that they can, you know, then do the right job in terms of making sure that it's appropriate and it's consistent. >> Consistency is key. Guys, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure really digging through EnterpriseWeb. >> Thank you. >> What you're doing >> with Red Hat. How you're helping the organization transform and Supercloud, we can't forget Supercloud. (Dave Vellante laughs) >> Fight Supercloud. Guys, thank you so much for your time. >> Thank you so much Lisa. >> Thank you. >> Thank you guys. >> Very nice. >> Lisa: We really appreciate it. >> For our guests and for Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage coming to you live from MWC 23. We'll be back after a short break.

(bright upbeat music) >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to SiliconANGLE News breaking story here. Amazon Web Services expanding their relationship with Hugging Face, breaking news here on SiliconANGLE. I'm John Furrier, SiliconANGLE reporter, founder, and also co-host of theCUBE. And I have with me, Swami, from Amazon Web Services, vice president of database, analytics, machine learning with AWS. Swami, great to have you on for this breaking news segment on AWS's big news. Thanks for coming on and taking the time. >> Hey, John, pleasure to be here. >> You know- >> Looking forward to it. >> We've had many conversations on theCUBE over the years, we've watched Amazon really move fast into the large data modeling, SageMaker became a very smashing success, obviously you've been on this for a while. Now with ChatGPT OpenAI, a lot of buzz going mainstream, takes it from behind the curtain inside the ropes, if you will, in the industry to a mainstream. And so this is a big moment, I think, in the industry, I want to get your perspective, because your news with Hugging Face, I think is another tell sign that we're about to tip over into a new accelerated growth around making AI now application aware, application centric, more programmable, more API access. What's the big news about, with AWS Hugging Face, you know, what's going on with this announcement? >> Yeah. First of all, they're very excited to announce our expanded collaboration with Hugging Face, because with this partnership, our goal, as you all know, I mean, Hugging Face, I consider them like the GitHub for machine learning. And with this partnership, Hugging Face and AWS, we'll be able to democratize AI for a broad range of developers, not just specific deep AI startups. And now with this, we can accelerate the training, fine tuning and deployment of these large language models, and vision models from Hugging Face in the cloud. And the broader context, when you step back and see what customer problem we are trying to solve with this announcement, essentially if you see these foundational models, are used to now create like a huge number of applications, suggest like tech summarization, question answering, or search image generation, creative, other things. And these are all stuff we are seeing in the likes of these ChatGPT style applications. But there is a broad range of enterprise use cases that we don't even talk about. And it's because these kind of transformative, generative AI capabilities and models are not available to, I mean, millions of developers. And because either training these elements from scratch can be very expensive or time consuming and need deep expertise, or more importantly, they don't need these generic models, they need them to be fine tuned for the specific use cases. And one of the biggest complaints we hear is that these models, when they try to use it for real production use cases, they are incredibly expensive to train and incredibly expensive to run inference on, to use it at a production scale. So, and unlike web search style applications, where the margins can be really huge, here in production use cases and enterprises, you want efficiency at scale. That's where Hugging Face and AWS share our mission. And by integrating with Trainium and Inferentia, we're able to handle the cost efficient training and inference at scale, I'll deep dive on it. And by teaming up on the SageMaker front, now the time it takes to build these models and fine tune them is also coming down. So that's what makes this partnership very unique as well. So I'm very excited. >> I want to get into the time savings and the cost savings as well on the training and inference, it's a huge issue, but before we get into that, just how long have you guys been working with Hugging Face? I know there's a previous relationship, this is an expansion of that relationship, can you comment on what's different about what's happened before and then now? >> Yeah. So, Hugging Face, we have had a great relationship in the past few years as well, where they have actually made their models available to run on AWS, you know, fashion. Even in fact, their Bloom Project was something many of our customers even used. Bloom Project, for context, is their open source project which builds a GPT-3 style model. And now with this expanded collaboration, now Hugging Face selected AWS for that next generation office generative AI model, building on their highly successful Bloom Project as well. And the nice thing is, now, by direct integration with Trainium and Inferentia, where you get cost savings in a really significant way, now, for instance, Trn1 can provide up to 50% cost to train savings, and Inferentia can deliver up to 60% better costs, and four x more higher throughput than (indistinct). Now, these models, especially as they train that next generation generative AI models, it is going to be, not only more accessible to all the developers, who use it in open, so it'll be a lot cheaper as well. And that's what makes this moment really exciting, because we can't democratize AI unless we make it broadly accessible and cost efficient and easy to program and use as well. >> Yeah. >> So very exciting. >> I'll get into the SageMaker and CodeWhisperer angle in a second, but you hit on some good points there. One, accessibility, which is, I call the democratization, which is getting this in the hands of developers, and/or AI to develop, we'll get into that in a second. So, access to coding and Git reasoning is a whole nother wave. But the three things I know you've been working on, I want to put in the buckets here and comment, one, I know you've, over the years, been working on saving time to train, that's a big point, you mentioned some of those stats, also cost, 'cause now cost is an equation on, you know, bundling whether you're uncoupling with hardware and software, that's a big issue. Where do I find the GPUs? Where's the horsepower cost? And then also sustainability. You've mentioned that in the past, is there a sustainability angle here? Can you talk about those three things, time, cost, and sustainability? >> Certainly. So if you look at it from the AWS perspective, we have been supporting customers doing machine learning for the past years. Just for broader context, Amazon has been doing ML the past two decades right from the early days of ML powered recommendation to actually also supporting all kinds of generative AI applications. If you look at even generative AI application within Amazon, Amazon search, when you go search for a product and so forth, we have a team called MFi within Amazon search that helps bring these large language models into creating highly accurate search results. And these are created with models, really large models with tens of billions of parameters, scales to thousands of training jobs every month and trained on large model of hardware. And this is an example of a really good large language foundation model application running at production scale, and also, of course, Alexa, which uses a large generator model as well. And they actually even had a research paper that showed that they are more, and do better in accuracy than other systems like GPT-3 and whatnot. So, and we also touched on things like CodeWhisperer, which uses generative AI to improve developer productivity, but in a responsible manner, because 40% of some of the studies show 40% of this generated code had serious security flaws in it. This is where we didn't just do generative AI, we combined with automated reasoning capabilities, which is a very, very useful technique to identify these issues and couple them so that it produces highly secure code as well. Now, all these learnings taught us few things, and which is what you put in these three buckets. And yeah, like more than 100,000 customers using ML and AI services, including leading startups in the generative AI space, like stability AI, AI21 Labs, or Hugging Face, or even Alexa, for that matter. They care about, I put them in three dimension, one is around cost, which we touched on with Trainium and Inferentia, where we actually, the Trainium, you provide to 50% better cost savings, but the other aspect is, Trainium is a lot more power efficient as well compared to traditional one. And Inferentia is also better in terms of throughput, when it comes to what it is capable of. Like it is able to deliver up to three x higher compute performance and four x higher throughput, compared to it's previous generation, and it is extremely cost efficient and power efficient as well. >> Well. >> Now, the second element that really is important is in a day, developers deeply value the time it takes to build these models, and they don't want to build models from scratch. And this is where SageMaker, which is, even going to Kaggle uses, this is what it is, number one, enterprise ML platform. What it did to traditional machine learning, where tens of thousands of customers use StageMaker today, including the ones I mentioned, is that what used to take like months to build these models have dropped down to now a matter of days, if not less. Now, a generative AI, the cost of building these models, if you look at the landscape, the model parameter size had jumped by more than thousand X in the past three years, thousand x. And that means the training is like a really big distributed systems problem. How do you actually scale these model training? How do you actually ensure that you utilize these efficiently? Because these machines are very expensive, let alone they consume a lot of power. So, this is where SageMaker capability to build, automatically train, tune, and deploy models really concern this, especially with this distributor training infrastructure, and those are some of the reasons why some of the leading generative AI startups are actually leveraging it, because they do not want a giant infrastructure team, which is constantly tuning and fine tuning, and keeping these clusters alive. >> It sounds like a lot like what startups are doing with the cloud early days, no data center, you move to the cloud. So, this is the trend we're seeing, right? You guys are making it easier for developers with Hugging Face, I get that. I love that GitHub for machine learning, large language models are complex and expensive to build, but not anymore, you got Trainium and Inferentia, developers can get faster time to value, but then you got the transformers data sets, token libraries, all that optimized for generator. This is a perfect storm for startups. Jon Turow, a former AWS person, who used to work, I think for you, is now a VC at Madrona Venture, he and I were talking about the generator AI landscape, it's exploding with startups. Every alpha entrepreneur out there is seeing this as the next frontier, that's the 20 mile stairs, next 10 years is going to be huge. What is the big thing that's happened? 'Cause some people were saying, the founder of Yquem said, "Oh, the start ups won't be real, because they don't all have AI experience." John Markoff, former New York Times writer told me that, AI, there's so much work done, this is going to explode, accelerate really fast, because it's almost like it's been waiting for this moment. What's your reaction? >> I actually think there is going to be an explosion of startups, not because they need to be AI startups, but now finally AI is really accessible or going to be accessible, so that they can create remarkable applications, either for enterprises or for disrupting actually how customer service is being done or how creative tools are being built. And I mean, this is going to change in many ways. When we think about generative AI, we always like to think of how it generates like school homework or arts or music or whatnot, but when you look at it on the practical side, generative AI is being actually used across various industries. I'll give an example of like Autodesk. Autodesk is a customer who runs an AWS and SageMaker. They already have an offering that enables generated design, where designers can generate many structural designs for products, whereby you give a specific set of constraints and they actually can generate a structure accordingly. And we see similar kind of trend across various industries, where it can be around creative media editing or various others. I have the strong sense that literally, in the next few years, just like now, conventional machine learning is embedded in every application, every mobile app that we see, it is pervasive, and we don't even think twice about it, same way, like almost all apps are built on cloud. Generative AI is going to be part of every startup, and they are going to create remarkable experiences without needing actually, these deep generative AI scientists. But you won't get that until you actually make these models accessible. And I also don't think one model is going to rule the world, then you want these developers to have access to broad range of models. Just like, go back to the early days of deep learning. Everybody thought it is going to be one framework that will rule the world, and it has been changing, from Caffe to TensorFlow to PyTorch to various other things. And I have a suspicion, we had to enable developers where they are, so. >> You know, Dave Vellante and I have been riffing on this concept called super cloud, and a lot of people have co-opted to be multicloud, but we really were getting at this whole next layer on top of say, AWS. You guys are the most comprehensive cloud, you guys are a super cloud, and even Adam and I are talking about ISVs evolving to ecosystem partners. I mean, your top customers have ecosystems building on top of it. This feels like a whole nother AWS. How are you guys leveraging the history of AWS, which by the way, had the same trajectory, startups came in, they didn't want to provision a data center, the heavy lifting, all the things that have made Amazon successful culturally. And day one thinking is, provide the heavy lifting, undifferentiated heavy lifting, and make it faster for developers to program code. AI's got the same thing. How are you guys taking this to the next level, because now, this is an opportunity for the competition to change the game and take it over? This is, I'm sure, a conversation, you guys have a lot of things going on in AWS that makes you unique. What's the internal and external positioning around how you take it to the next level? >> I mean, so I agree with you that generative AI has a very, very strong potential in terms of what it can enable in terms of next generation application. But this is where Amazon's experience and expertise in putting these foundation models to work internally really has helped us quite a bit. If you look at it, like amazon.com search is like a very, very important application in terms of what is the customer impact on number of customers who use that application openly, and the amount of dollar impact it does for an organization. And we have been doing it silently for a while now. And the same thing is true for like Alexa too, which actually not only uses it for natural language understanding other city, even national leverages is set for creating stories and various other examples. And now, our approach to it from AWS is we actually look at it as in terms of the same three tiers like we did in machine learning, because when you look at generative AI, we genuinely see three sets of customers. One is, like really deep technical expert practitioner startups. These are the startups that are creating the next generation models like the likes of stability AIs or Hugging Face with Bloom or AI21. And they generally want to build their own models, and they want the best price performance of their infrastructure for training and inference. That's where our investments in silicon and hardware and networking innovations, where Trainium and Inferentia really plays a big role. And we can nearly do that, and that is one. The second middle tier is where I do think developers don't want to spend time building their own models, let alone, they actually want the model to be useful to that data. They don't need their models to create like high school homeworks or various other things. What they generally want is, hey, I had this data from my enterprises that I want to fine tune and make it really work only for this, and make it work remarkable, can be for tech summarization, to generate a report, or it can be for better Q&A, and so forth. This is where we are. Our investments in the middle tier with SageMaker, and our partnership with Hugging Face and AI21 and co here are all going to very meaningful. And you'll see us investing, I mean, you already talked about CodeWhisperer, which is an open preview, but we are also partnering with a whole lot of top ISVs, and you'll see more on this front to enable the next wave of generated AI apps too, because this is an area where we do think lot of innovation is yet to be done. It's like day one for us in this space, and we want to enable that huge ecosystem to flourish. >> You know, one of the things Dave Vellante and I were talking about in our first podcast we just did on Friday, we're going to do weekly, is we highlighted the AI ChatGPT example as a horizontal use case, because everyone loves it, people are using it in all their different verticals, and horizontal scalable cloud plays perfectly into it. So I have to ask you, as you look at what AWS is going to bring to the table, a lot's changed over the past 13 years with AWS, a lot more services are available, how should someone rebuild or re-platform and refactor their application of business with AI, with AWS? What are some of the tools that you see and recommend? Is it Serverless, is it SageMaker, CodeWhisperer? What do you think's going to shine brightly within the AWS stack, if you will, or service list, that's going to be part of this? As you mentioned, CodeWhisperer and SageMaker, what else should people be looking at as they start tinkering and getting all these benefits, and scale up their ups? >> You know, if we were a startup, first, I would really work backwards from the customer problem I try to solve, and pick and choose, bar, I don't need to deal with the undifferentiated heavy lifting, so. And that's where the answer is going to change. If you look at it then, the answer is not going to be like a one size fits all, so you need a very strong, I mean, granted on the compute front, if you can actually completely accurate it, so unless, I will always recommend it, instead of running compute for running your ups, because it takes care of all the undifferentiated heavy lifting, but on the data, and that's where we provide a whole variety of databases, right from like relational data, or non-relational, or dynamo, and so forth. And of course, we also have a deep analytical stack, where data directly flows from our relational databases into data lakes and data virus. And you can get value along with partnership with various analytical providers. The area where I do think fundamentally things are changing on what people can do is like, with CodeWhisperer, I was literally trying to actually program a code on sending a message through Twilio, and I was going to pull up to read a documentation, and in my ID, I was actually saying like, let's try sending a message to Twilio, or let's actually update a Route 53 error code. All I had to do was type in just a comment, and it actually started generating the sub-routine. And it is going to be a huge time saver, if I were a developer. And the goal is for us not to actually do it just for AWS developers, and not to just generate the code, but make sure the code is actually highly secure and follows the best practices. So, it's not always about machine learning, it's augmenting with automated reasoning as well. And generative AI is going to be changing, and not just in how people write code, but also how it actually gets built and used as well. You'll see a lot more stuff coming on this front. >> Swami, thank you for your time. I know you're super busy. Thank you for sharing on the news and giving commentary. Again, I think this is a AWS moment and industry moment, heavy lifting, accelerated value, agility. AIOps is going to be probably redefined here. Thanks for sharing your commentary. And we'll see you next time, I'm looking forward to doing more follow up on this. It's going to be a big wave. Thanks. >> Okay. Thanks again, John, always a pleasure. >> Okay. This is SiliconANGLE's breaking news commentary. I'm John Furrier with SiliconANGLE News, as well as host of theCUBE. Swami, who's a leader in AWS, has been on theCUBE multiple times. We've been tracking the growth of how Amazon's journey has just been exploding past five years, in particular, past three. You heard the numbers, great performance, great reviews. This is a watershed moment, I think, for the industry, and it's going to be a lot of fun for the next 10 years. Thanks for watching. (bright music)

(bright music) >> Hi, everybody, this is Dave Vellante, welcome back to Supercloud 2. Last August, at the first Supercloud event, we invited the broader community to help further define Supercloud, we assessed its viability, and identified the critical elements and deployment models of the concept. The objectives here at Supercloud too are, first of all, to continue to tighten and test the concept, the second is, we want to get real world input from practitioners on the problems that they're facing and the viability of Supercloud in terms of applying it to their business. So on the program, we got companies like Walmart, Sachs, Western Union, Ionis Pharmaceuticals, NASDAQ, and others. And the third thing that we want to do is we want to drill into the intersection of cloud and data to project what the future looks like in the context of Supercloud. So in this segment, we want to explore the concept of data architectures and what's going to be required for Supercloud. And I'm pleased to welcome one of our Supercloud sponsors, ChaosSearch, Ed Walsh is the CEO of the company, with Thomas Hazel, who's the Founder, CTO, and Chief Scientist. Guys, good to see you again, thanks for coming into our Marlborough studio. >> Always great. >> Great to be here. >> Okay, so there's a little debate, I'm going to put you right in the spot. (Ed chuckling) A little debate going on in the community started by Bob Muglia, a former CEO of Snowflake, and he was at Microsoft for a long time, and he looked at the Supercloud definition, said, "I think you need to tighten it up a little bit." So, here's what he came up with. He said, "A Supercloud is a platform that provides a programmatically consistent set of services hosted on heterogeneous cloud providers." So he's calling it a platform, not an architecture, which was kind of interesting. And so presumably the platform owner is going to be responsible for the architecture, but Dr. Nelu Mihai, who's a computer scientist behind the Cloud of Clouds Project, he chimed in and responded with the following. He said, "Cloud is a programming paradigm supporting the entire lifecycle of applications with data and logic natively distributed. Supercloud is an open architecture that integrates heterogeneous clouds in an agnostic manner." So, Ed, words matter. Is this an architecture or is it a platform? >> Put us on the spot. So, I'm sure you have concepts, I would say it's an architectural or design principle. Listen, I look at Supercloud as a mega trend, just like cloud, just like data analytics. And some companies are using the principle, design principles, to literally get dramatically ahead of everyone else. I mean, things you couldn't possibly do if you didn't use cloud principles, right? So I think it's a Supercloud effect, you're able to do things you're not able to. So I think it's more a design principle, but if you do it right, you get dramatic effect as far as customer value. >> So the conversation that we were having with Muglia, and Tristan Handy of dbt Labs, was, I'll set it up as the following, and, Thomas, would love to get your thoughts, if you have a CRM, think about applications today, it's all about forms and codifying business processes, you type a bunch of stuff into Salesforce, and all the salespeople do it, and this machine generates a forecast. What if you have this new type of data app that pulls data from the transaction system, the e-commerce, the supply chain, the partner ecosystem, et cetera, and then, without humans, actually comes up with a plan. That's their vision. And Muglia was saying, in order to do that, you need to rethink data architectures and database architectures specifically, you need to get down to the level of how the data is stored on the disc. What are your thoughts on that? Well, first of all, I'm going to cop out, I think it's actually both. I do think it's a design principle, I think it's not open technology, but open APIs, open access, and you can build a platform on that design principle architecture. Now, I'm a database person, I love solving the database problems. >> I'm waited for you to launch into this. >> Yeah, so I mean, you know, Snowflake is a database, right? It's a distributed database. And we wanted to crack those codes, because, multi-region, multi-cloud, customers wanted access to their data, and their data is in a variety of forms, all these services that you're talked about. And so what I saw as a core principle was cloud object storage, everyone streams their data to cloud object storage. From there we said, well, how about we rethink database architecture, rethink file format, so that we can take each one of these services and bring them together, whether distributively or centrally, such that customers can access and get answers, whether it's operational data, whether it's business data, AKA search, or SQL, complex distributed joins. But we had to rethink the architecture. I like to say we're not a first generation, or a second, we're a third generation distributed database on pure, pure cloud storage, no caching, no SSDs. Why? Because all that availability, the cost of time, is a struggle, and cloud object storage, we think, is the answer. >> So when you're saying no caching, so when I think about how companies are solving some, you know, pretty hairy problems, take MySQL Heatwave, everybody thought Oracle was going to just forget about MySQL, well, they come out with Heatwave. And the way they solve problems, and you see their benchmarks against Amazon, "Oh, we crush everybody," is they put it all in memory. So you said no caching? You're not getting performance through caching? How is that true, and how are you getting performance? >> Well, so five, six years ago, right? When you realize that cloud object storage is going to be everywhere, and it's going to be a core foundational, if you will, fabric, what would you do? Well, a lot of times the second generation say, "We'll take it out of cloud storage, put in SSDs or something, and put into cache." And that adds a lot of time, adds a lot of costs. But I said, what if, what if we could actually make the first read hot, the first read distributed joins and searching? And so what we went out to do was said, we can't cache, because that's adds time, that adds cost. We have to make cloud object storage high performance, like it feels like a caching SSD. That's where our patents are, that's where our technology is, and we've spent many years working towards this. So, to me, if you can crack that code, a lot of these issues we're talking about, multi-region, multicloud, different services, everybody wants to send their data to the data lake, but then they move it out, we said, "Keep it right there." >> You nailed it, the data gravity. So, Bob's right, the data's coming in, and you need to get the data from everywhere, but you need an environment that you can deal with all that different schema, all the different type of technology, but also at scale. Bob's right, you cannot use memory or SSDs to cache that, that doesn't scale, it doesn't scale cost effectively. But if you could, and what you did, is you made object storage, S3 first, but object storage, the only persistence by doing that. And then we get performance, we should talk about it, it's literally, you know, hundreds of terabytes of queries, and it's done in seconds, it's done without memory caching. We have concepts of caching, but the only caching, the only persistence, is actually when we're doing caching, we're just keeping another side-eye track of things on the S3 itself. So we're using, actually, the object storage to be a database, which is kind of where Bob was saying, we agree, but that's what you started at, people thought you were crazy. >> And maybe make it live. Don't think of it as archival or temporary space, make it live, real time streaming, operational data. What we do is make it smart, we see the data coming in, we uniquely index it such that you can get your use cases, that are search, observability, security, or backend operational. But we don't have to have this, I dunno, static, fixed, siloed type of architecture technologies that were traditionally built prior to Supercloud thinking. >> And you don't have to move everything, essentially, you can do it wherever the data lands, whatever cloud across the globe, you're able to bring it together, you get the cost effectiveness, because the only persistence is the cheapest storage persistent layer you can buy. But the key thing is you cracked the code. >> We had to crack the code, right? That was the key thing. >> That's where the plans are. >> And then once you do that, then everything else gets easier to scale, your architecture, across regions, across cloud. >> Now, it's a general purpose database, as Bob was saying, but we use that database to solve a particular issue, which is around operational data, right? So, we agree with Bob's. >> Interesting. So this brings me to this concept of data, Jimata Gan is one of our speakers, you know, we talk about data fabric, which is a NetApp, originally NetApp concept, Gartner's kind of co-opted it. But so, the basic concept is, data lives everywhere, whether it's an S3 bucket, or a SQL database, or a data lake, it's just a node on the data mesh. So in your view, how does this fit in with Supercloud? Ed, you've said that you've built, essentially, an enabler for that, for the data mesh, I think you're an enabler for the Supercloud-like principles. This is a big, chewy opportunity, and it requires, you know, a team approach. There's got to be an ecosystem, there's not going to be one Supercloud to rule them all, so where does the ecosystem fit into the discussion, and where do you fit into the ecosystem? >> Right, so we agree completely, there's not one Supercloud in effect, but we use Supercloud principles to build our platform, and then, you know, the ecosystem's going to be built on leveraging what everyone else's secret powers are, right? So our power, our superpower, based upon what we built is, we deal with, if you're having any scale, or cost effective scale issues, with data, machine generated data, like business observability or security data, we are your force multiplier, we will take that in singularly, just let it, simply put it in your object storage wherever it sits, and we give you uniformity access to that using OpenAPI access, SQL, or you know, Elasticsearch API. So, that's what we do, that's our superpower. So I'll play it into data mesh, that's a perfect, we are a node on a data mesh, but I'll play it in the soup about how, the ecosystem, we see it kind of playing, and we talked about it in just in the last couple days, how we see this kind of possibly. Short term, our superpowers, we deal with this data that's coming at these environments, people, customers, building out observability or security environments, or vendors that are selling their own Supercloud, I do observability, the Datadogs of the world, dot dot dot, the Splunks of the world, dot dot dot, and security. So what we do is we fit in naturally. What we do is a cost effective scale, just land it anywhere in the world, we deal with ingest, and it's a cost effective, an order of magnitude, or two or three order magnitudes more cost effective. Allows them, their customers are asking them to do the impossible, "Give me fast monitoring alerting. I want it snappy, but I want it to keep two years of data, (laughs) and I want it cost effective." It doesn't work. They're good at the fast monitoring alerting, we're good at the long-term retention. And yet there's some gray area between those two, but one to one is actually cheaper, so we would partner. So the first ecosystem plays, who wants to have the ability to, really, all the data's in those same environments, the security observability players, they can literally, just through API, drag our data into their point to grab. We can make it seamless for customers. Right now, we make it helpful to customers. Your Datadog, we make a button, easy go from Datadog to us for logs, save you money. Same thing with Grafana. But you can also look at ecosystem, those same vendors, it used to be a year ago it was, you know, its all about how can you grow, like it's growth at all costs, now it's about cogs. So literally we can go an environment, you supply what your customer wants, but we can help with cogs. And one-on one in a partnership is better than you trying to build on your own. >> Thomas, you were saying you make the first read fast, so you think about Snowflake. Everybody wants to talk about Snowflake and Databricks. So, Snowflake, great, but you got to get the data in there. All right, so that's, can you help with that problem? >> I mean we want simple in, right? And if you have to have structure in, you're not simple. So the idea that you have a simple in, data lake, schema read type philosophy, but schema right type performance. And so what I wanted to do, what we have done, is have that simple lake, and stream that data real time, and those access points of Search or SQL, to go after whatever business case you need, security observability, warehouse integration. But the key thing is, how do I make that click, click, click answer, and do it quickly? And so what we want to do is, that first read has to be fast. Why? 'Cause then you're going to do all this siloing, layers, complexity. If your first read's not fast, you're at a disadvantage, particularly in cost. And nobody says I want less data, but everyone has to, whether they say we're going to shorten the window, we're going to use AI to choose, but in a security moment, when you don't have that answer, you're in trouble. And that's why we are this service, this Supercloud service, if you will, providing access, well-known search, well-known SQL type access, that if you just have one access point, you're at a disadvantage. >> We actually talked about Snowflake and BigQuery, and a different platform, Data Bricks. That's kind of where we see the phase two of ecosystem. One is easy, the low-hanging fruit is observability and security firms. But the next one is, what we do, our super power is dealing with this messy data that schema is changing like night and day. Pipelines are tough, and it's changing all the time, but you want these things fast, and it's big data around the world. That's the next point, just use us alongside, or inside, one of their platforms, and now we get the best of both worlds. Our superpower is keeping this messy data as a streaming, okay, not a batch thing, allow you to do that. So, that's the second one. And then to be honest, the third one, which plays you to Supercloud, it also plays perfectly in the data mesh, is if you really go to the ultimate thing, what we have done is made object storage, S3, GCS, and blob storage, we made it a database. Put, get, complex query with big joins. You know, so back to your original thing, and Muglia teed it up perfectly, we've done that. Now imagine if that's an ecosystem, who would want that? If it's, again, it's uniform available across all the regions, across all the clouds, and it's right next to where you are building a service, or a client's trying, that's where the ecosystem, I think people are going to use Superclouds for their superpowers. We're really good at this, allows that short term. I think the Snowflakes and the Data Bricks are the medium term, you know? And then I think eventually gets to, hey, listen if you can make object storage fast, you can just go after it with simple SQL queries, or elastic. Who would want that? I think that's where people are going to leverage it. It's not going to be one Supercloud, and we leverage the super clouds. >> Our viewpoint is smart object storage can be programmable, and so we agree with Bob, but we're not saying do it here, do it here. This core, fundamental layer across regions, across clouds, that everyone has? Simple in. Right now, it's hard to get data in for access for analysis. So we said, simply, we'll automate the entire process, give you API access across regions, across clouds. And again, how do you do a distributed join that's fast? How do you do a distributed join that doesn't cost you an arm or a leg? And how do you do it at scale? And that's where we've been focused. >> So prior, the cloud object store was a niche. >> Yeah. >> S3 obviously changed that. How standard is, essentially, object store across the different cloud platforms? Is that a problem for you? Is that an easy thing to solve? >> Well, let's talk about it. I mean we've fundamentally, yeah we've extracted it, but fundamentally, cloud object storage, put, get, and list. That's why it's so scalable, 'cause it doesn't have all these other components. That complexity is where we have moved up, and provide direct analytical API access. So because of its simplicity, and costs, and security, and reliability, it can scale naturally. I mean, really, distributed object storage is easy, it's put-get anywhere, now what we've done is we put a layer of intelligence, you know, call it smart object storage, where access is simple. So whether it's multi-region, do a query across, or multicloud, do a query across, or hunting, searching. >> We've had clients doing Amazon and Google, we have some Azure, but we see Amazon and Google more, and it's a consistent service across all of them. Just literally put your data in the bucket of choice, or folder of choice, click a couple buttons, literally click that to say "that's hot," and after that, it's hot, you can see it. But we're not moving data, the data gravity issue, that's the other. That it's already natively flowing to these pools of object storage across different regions and clouds. We don't move it, we index it right there, we're spinning up stateless compute, back to the Supercloud concept. But now that allows us to do all these other things, right? >> And it's no longer just cheap and deep object storage. Right? >> Yeah, we make it the same, like you have an analytic platform regardless of where you're at, you don't have to worry about that. Yeah, we deal with that, we deal with a stateless compute coming up -- >> And make it programmable. Be able to say, "I want this bucket to provide these answers." Right, that's really the hope, the vision. And the complexity to build the entire stack, and then connect them together, we said, the fabric is cloud storage, we just provide the intelligence on top. >> Let's bring it back to the customers, and one of the things we're exploring in Supercloud too is, you know, is Supercloud a solution looking for a problem? Is a multicloud really a problem? I mean, you hear, you know, a lot of the vendor marketing says, "Oh, it's a disaster, because it's all different across the clouds." And I talked to a lot of customers even as part of Supercloud too, they're like, "Well, I solved that problem by just going mono cloud." Well, but then you're not able to take advantage of a lot of the capabilities and the primitives that, you know, like Google's data, or you like Microsoft's simplicity, their RPA, whatever it is. So what are customers telling you, what are their near term problems that they're trying to solve today, and how are they thinking about the future? >> Listen, it's a real problem. I think it started, I think this is a a mega trend, just like cloud. Just, cloud data, and I always add, analytics, are the mega trends. If you're looking at those, if you're not considering using the Supercloud principles, in other words, leveraging what I have, abstracting it out, and getting the most out of that, and then build value on top, I think you're not going to be able to keep up, In fact, no way you're going to keep up with this data volume. It's a geometric challenge, and you're trying to do linear things. So clients aren't necessarily asking, hey, for Supercloud, but they're really saying, I need to have a better mechanism to simplify this and get value across it, and how do you abstract that out to do that? And that's where they're obviously, our conversations are more amazed what we're able to do, and what they're able to do with our platform, because if you think of what we've done, the S3, or GCS, or object storage, is they can't imagine the ingest, they can't imagine how easy, time to glass, one minute, no matter where it lands in the world, querying this in seconds for hundreds of terabytes squared. People are amazed, but that's kind of, so they're not asking for that, but they are amazed. And then when you start talking on it, if you're an enterprise person, you're building a big cloud data platform, or doing data or analytics, if you're not trying to leverage the public clouds, and somehow leverage all of them, and then build on top, then I think you're missing it. So they might not be asking for it, but they're doing it. >> And they're looking for a lens, you mentioned all these different services, how do I bring those together quickly? You know, our viewpoint, our service, is I have all these streams of data, create a lens where they want to go after it via search, go after via SQL, bring them together instantly, no e-tailing out, no define this table, put into this database. We said, let's have a service that creates a lens across all these streams, and then make those connections. I want to take my CRM with my Google AdWords, and maybe my Salesforce, how do I do analysis? Maybe I want to hunt first, maybe I want to join, maybe I want to add another stream to it. And so our viewpoint is, it's so natural to get into these lake platforms and then provide lenses to get that access. >> And they don't want it separate, they don't want something different here, and different there. They want it basically -- >> So this is our industry, right? If something new comes out, remember virtualization came out, "Oh my God, this is so great, it's going to solve all these problems." And all of a sudden it just got to be this big, more complex thing. Same thing with cloud, you know? It started out with S3, and then EC2, and now hundreds and hundreds of different services. So, it's a complex matter for a lot of people, and this creates problems for customers, especially when you got divisions that are using different clouds, and you're saying that the solution, or a solution for the part of the problem, is to really allow the data to stay in place on S3, use that standard, super simple, but then give it what, Ed, you've called superpower a couple of times, to make it fast, make it inexpensive, and allow you to do that across clouds. >> Yeah, yeah. >> I'll give you guys the last word on that. >> No, listen, I think, we think Supercloud allows you to do a lot more. And for us, data, everyone says more data, more problems, more budget issue, everyone knows more data is better, and we show you how to do it cost effectively at scale. And we couldn't have done it without the design principles of we're leveraging the Supercloud to get capabilities, and because we use super, just the object storage, we're able to get these capabilities of ingest, scale, cost effectiveness, and then we built on top of this. In the end, a database is a data platform that allows you to go after everything distributed, and to get one platform for analytics, no matter where it lands, that's where we think the Supercloud concepts are perfect, that's where our clients are seeing it, and we're kind of excited about it. >> Yeah a third generation database, Supercloud database, however we want to phrase it, and make it simple, but provide the value, and make it instant. >> Guys, thanks so much for coming into the studio today, I really thank you for your support of theCUBE, and theCUBE community, it allows us to provide events like this and free content. I really appreciate it. >> Oh, thank you. >> Thank you. >> All right, this is Dave Vellante for John Furrier in theCUBE community, thanks for being with us today. You're watching Supercloud 2, keep it right there for more thought provoking discussions around the future of cloud and data. (bright music)

(intro music) >> Good afternoon guys and gals. Welcome back to The Strip, Las Vegas. It's "theCUBE" live day four of our coverage of "AWS re:Invent". Lisa Martin, Dave Vellante. Dave, we've had some awesome conversations the last four days. I can't believe how many people are still here. The AWS ecosystem seems stronger than ever. >> Yeah, last year we really noted the ecosystem, you know, coming out of the isolation economy 'cause everybody had this old pent up demand to get together and the ecosystem, even last year, we were like, "Wow." This year's like 10x wow. >> It really is 10x wow, it feels that way. We're going to have a 10x wow conversation next. We're bringing back DataStax to "theCUBE". Please welcome Thomas Bean, it's CMO. Thomas welcome to "theCUBE". >> Thanks, thanks a lot, thanks for having me. >> Great to have you, talk to us about what's going on at DataStax, it's been a little while since we talked to you guys. >> Indeed, so DataStax, we are the realtime data company and we've always been involved in technology such as "Apache Cassandra". We actually created to support and take this, this great technology to the market. And now we're taking it, combining it with other technologies such as "Apache Pulse" for streaming to provide a realtime data cloud. Which helps our users, our customers build applications faster and help them scale without limits. So it's all about mobilizing all of this information that is going to drive the application going to create the awesome experience, when you have a customer waiting behind their mobile phone, when you need a decision to take place immediately to, that's the kind of data that we, that we provide in the cloud on any cloud, but especially with, with AWS and providing the performance that technologies like "Apache Cassandra" are known for but also with market leading unit economics. So really empowering customers to operate at speed and scale. >> Speaking of customers, nobody wants less data slower. And one of the things I think we learned in the in the pan, during the pandemic was that access to realtime data isn't nice to have anymore for any business. It is table stakes, it's competitive advantage. There's somebody right behind in the rear view mirror ready to take over. How has the business model of DataStax maybe evolved in the last couple of years with the fact that realtime data is so critical? >> Realtime data has been around for some time but it used to be really niches. You needed a lot of, a lot of people a lot of funding actually to, to implement these, these applications. So we've adapted to really democratize it, made super easy to access. Not only to start developing but also scaling. So this is why we've taken these great technologies made them serverless cloud native on the cloud so that developers could really start easily and scale. So that be on project products could be taken to the, to the market. And in terms of customers, the patterns is we've seen enterprise customers, you were talking about the pandemic, the Home Depot as an example was able to deliver curbside pickup delivery in 30 days because they were already using DataStax and could adapt their business model with a real time application that combines you were just driving by and you would get the delivery of what exactly you ordered without having to go into the the store. So they shifted their whole business model. But we also see a real strong trend about customer experiences and increasingly a lot of tech companies coming because scale means success to them and building on, on our, on our stack to, to build our applications. >> So Lisa, it's interesting. DataStax and "theCUBE" were started the same year, 2010, and that's when it was the beginning of the ascendancy of the big data era. But of course back then there was, I mean very little cloud. I mean most of it was on-prem. And so data stacks had, you know, had obviously you mentioned a number of things that you had to do to become cloud friendly. >> Thomas: Yes. >> You know, a lot of companies didn't make it, make it through. You guys just raised a bunch of dough as well last summer. And so that's been quite a transformation both architecturally, you know, bringing the customers through. I presume part of that was because you had such a great open source community, but also you have a unique value problem. Maybe you could sort of describe that a little. >> Absolutely, so the, I'll start with the open source community where we see a lot of traction at the, at the moment. We were always very involved with, with the "Apache Cassandra". But what we're seeing right now with "Apache Cassandra" is, is a lot of traction, gaining momentum. We actually, we, the open source community just won an award, did an AMA, had a, a vote from their readers about the top open source projects and "Apache Cassandra" and "Apache Pulse" are part of the top three, which is, which is great. We also run a, in collaboration with the Apache Project, the, a series of events around the, around the globe called "Cassandra Days" where we had tremendous attendance. We, some of them, we had to change venue twice because there were more people coming. A lot of students, a lot of the big users of Cassandra like Apple, Netflix who spoke at these, at these events. So we see this momentum actually picking up and that's why we're also super excited that the Linux Foundation is running the Cassandra Summit in in March in San Jose. Super happy to bring that even back with the rest of the, of the community and we have big announcements to come. "Apache Cassandra" will, will see its next version with major advances such as the support of asset transactions, which is going to make it even more suitable to more use cases. So we're bringing that scale to more applications. So a lot of momentum in terms of, in terms of the, the open source projects. And to your point about the value proposition we take this great momentum to which we contribute a lot. It's not only about taking, it's about giving as well. >> Dave: Big committers, I mean... >> Exactly big contributors. And we also have a lot of expertise, we worked with all of the members of the community, many of them being our customers. So going to the cloud, indeed there was architectural work making Cassandra cloud native putting it on Kubernetes, having the right APIs for developers to, to easily develop on top of it. But also becoming a cloud company, building customer success, our own platform engineering. We, it's interesting because actually we became like our partners in a community. We now operate Cassandra in the cloud so that all of our customers can benefit from all the power of Cassandra but really efficiently, super rapidly, and also with a, the leading unit economies as I mentioned. >> How will the, the asset compliance affect your, you know, new markets, new use cases, you know, expand your TAM, can you explain that? >> I think it will, more applications will be able to tap into the power of, of "NoSQL". Today we see a lot on the customer experience as IOT, gaming platform, a lot of SaaS companies. But now with the ability to have transactions at the database level, we can, beyond providing information, we can go even deeper into the logic of the, of the application. So it makes Cassandra and therefore Astra which is our cloud service an even more suitable database we can address, address more even in terms of the transaction that the application itself will, will support. >> What are some of the business benefits that Cassandra delivers to customers in terms of business outcomes helping businesses really transform? >> So Cassandra brings skill when you have millions of customers, when you have million of data points to go through to serve each of the customers. One of my favorite example is Priceline, who runs entirely on our cloud service. You may see one offer, but it's actually everything they know about you and everything they have to offer matched while you are refreshing your page. This is the kind of power that Cassandra provide. But the thing to say about "Apache Cassandra", it used to be also a database that was a bit hard to manage and hard to develop with. This is why as part of the cloud, we wanted to change these aspects, provide developers the API they like and need and what the application need. Making it super simple to operate and, and, and super affordable, also cost effective to, to run. So the the value to your point, it's time to market. You go faster, you don't have to worry when you choose the right database you're not going to, going to have to change horse in the middle of the river, like sixth month down the line. And you know, you have the guarantee that you're going to get the performance and also the best, the best TCO which matters a lot. I think your previous person talking was addressing it. That's also important especially in the, in a current context. >> As a managed service, you're saying, that's the enabler there, right? >> Thomas: Exactly. >> Dave: That is the model today. I mean, you have to really provide that for customers. They don't want to mess with, you know, all the plumbing, right? I mean... >> Absolutely, I don't think people want to manage databases anymore, we do that very well. We take SLAs and such and even at the developer level what they want is an API so they get all the power. All of of this powered by Cassandra, but now they get it as a, and it's as simple as using as, as an API. >> How about the ecosystem? You mentioned the show in in San Jose in March and the Linux Foundation is, is hosting that, is that correct? >> Yes, absolutely. >> And what is it, Cassandra? >> Cassandra Summit. >> Dave: Cassandra Summit >> Yep. >> What's the ecosystem like today in Cassandra, can you just sort of describe that? >> Around Cassandra, you have actually the big hyperscalers. You have also a few other companies that are supporting Cassandra like technologies. And what's interesting, and that's been a, a something we've worked on but also the "Apache Project" has worked on. Working on a lot of the adjacent technologies, the data pipelines, all of the DevOps solutions to make sure that you can actually put Cassandra as part of your way to build these products and, and build these, these applications. So the, the ecosystem keeps on, keeps on growing and actually the, the Cassandra community keeps on opening the database so that it's, it's really easy to have it connect to the rest of the, the rest environment. And we benefit from all of this in our Astra cloud service. >> So things like machine learning, governance tools that's what you would expect in the ecosystem forming around it, right? So we'll see that in March. >> Machine learning is especially a very interesting use case. We see more and more of it. We recently did a, a nice video with one of our customers called Unifour who does exactly this using also our abstract cloud service. What they provide is they analyze videos of sales calls and they help actually the sellers telling them, "Okay here's what happened here was the customer sentiment". Because they have proof that the better the sentiment is, the shorter the sell cycle is going to be. So they teach the, the sellers on how to say the right things, how to control the thing. This is machine learning applied on video. Cassandra provides I think 200 data points per second that feeds this machine learning. And we see more and more of these use cases, realtime use cases. It happens on the fly when you are on your phone, when you have a, a fraud maybe to detect and to prevent. So it is going to be more and more and we see more and more of these integration at the open source level with technologies like even "Feast" project like "Apache Feast". But also in the, in, in the partners that we're working with integrating our Cassandra and our cloud service with. >> Where are customer conversations these days, given that every company has to be a data company. They have to be able to, to democratize data, allow access to it deep into the, into the organizations. Not just IT or the data organization anymore. But are you finding that the conversations are rising up the, up the stack? Is this, is this a a C-suite priority? Is this a board level conversation? >> So that's an excellent question. We actually ran a survey this summer called "The State of the Database" where we, we asked these tech leaders, okay what's top of mind for you? And real time actually was, was really one of the top priorities. And they explained for the one that who call themselves digital leaders that for 71% of them they could correlate directly the use of realtime data, the quality of their experience or their decision making with revenue. And that's really where the discussion is. And I think it's something we can relate to as users. We don't want the, I mean if the Starbucks apps take seconds to to respond there will be a riot over there. So that's, that's something we can feel. But it really, now it's tangible in, in business terms and now then they take a look at their data strategy, are we equipped? Very often they will see, yeah, we have pockets of realtime data, but we're not really able to leverage it. >> Lisa: Yeah. >> For ML use cases, et cetera. So that's a big trend that we're seeing on one end. On the other end, what we're seeing, and it's one of the things we discussed a lot at the event is that yeah cost is important. Growth at all, at all cost does not exist. So we see a lot of push on moving a lot of the workloads to the cloud to make them scale but at the best the best cost. And we also see some organizations where like, okay let's not let a good crisis go to waste and let's accelerate our innovation not at all costs. So that we see also a lot of new projects being being pushed but reasonable, starting small and, and growing and all of this fueled by, by realtime data, so interesting. >> The other big topic amongst the, the customer community is security. >> Yep. >> I presume it's coming up a lot. What's the conversation like with DataStax? >> That's a topic we've been working on intensely since the creation of Astra less than two years ago. And we keep on reinforcing as any, any cloud provider not only our own abilities in terms of making sure that customers can manage their own keys, et cetera. But also integrating to the rest of the, of the ecosystem when some, a lot of our customers are running on AWS, how do we integrate with PrivateLink and such? We fit exactly into their security environment on AWS and they use exactly the same management tool. Because this is also what used to cost a lot in the cloud services. How much do you have to do to wire them and, and manage. And there are indeed compliance and governance challenges. So that's why making sure that it's fully connected that they have full transparency on what's happening is, is a big part of the evolution. It's always, security is always something you're working on but it's, it's a major topic for us. >> Yep, we talk about that on pretty much every event. Security, which we could dive into, but we're out of time. Last question for you. >> Thomas: Yes. >> We're talking before we went live, we're both big Formula One fans. Say DataStax has the opportunity to sponsor a team and you get the whole side pod to, to put like a phrase about DataStax on the side pod of this F1 car. (laughter) Like a billboard, what does it say? >> Billboard, because an F1 car goes pretty fast, it will be hard to, be hard to read but, "Twice the performance at half the cost, try Astra a cloud service." >> Drop the mike. Awesome, Thomas, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank for having me. >> Pleasure having you guys on the program. For our guest, Thomas Bean and Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin and you're watching "theCUBE" live from day four of our coverage. "theCUBE", the leader in live tech coverage. (outro music)