(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to Vegas. It's theCUBE live at AWS re:Invent 2022. We're hearing up to 50,000 people here. It feels like if the energy at this show is palpable. I love that. Lisa Martin here with Dave Vellante. Dave, we had the keynote this morning that Adam Selipsky delivered lots of momentum in his first year. One of the things that you said that you were looking in your breaking analysis that was released a few days ago, four trends and one of them, he said under Selipsky's rule in the 2020s, there's going to be a rush of data that will dwarf anything we have ever seen. >> Yeah, it was at least a quarter, maybe a third of his keynote this morning was all about data and the theme is simplifying data and doing better data integration, integrating across different data platforms. And we're excited to talk about that. Always want to simplify data. It's like the rush of data is so fast. It's hard for us to keep up. >> It is hard to keep that up. We're going to be talking with an alumni next about how his company is helping organizations like Cisco Meraki keep up with that data explosion. Please welcome back to the program, Matthew Scullion, the CEO of Matillion and how Hoshang Chenoy joins us, data scientist at Cisco Meraki. Guys, great to have you on the program. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for having us. >> So Matthew, we last saw you just a few months ago in Vegas at Snowflake Summits. >> Matthew: We only meet in Vegas. >> I guess we do, that's okay. Talk to us about some of the things, I know that Matillion is a data transformation solution that was originally introduced for AWS for Redshift. But talk to us about Matillion. What's gone on since we've seen you last? >> Well, I mean it's not that long ago but actually quite a lot. And it's all to do with exactly what you guys were just talking about there. This almost hard to comprehend way the world is changing with the amounts of data that we now can and need to put to work. And our worldview is there's no shortage of data but the choke points certainly one of the choke points. Maybe the choke point is our ability to make that data useful, to make it business ready. And we always talk about the end use cases. We talk about the dashboard or the AI model or the data science algorithm. But until before we can do any of that fun stuff, we have to refine raw data into business ready, usable data. And that's what Matillion is all about. And so since we last met, we've made a couple of really important announcements and possibly at the top of the list is what we call the data productivity cloud. And it's really squarely addressed this problem. It's the results of many years of work, really the apex of many years of the outsize engineering investment, Matillion loves to make. And the Data Productivity Cloud is all about helping organizations like Cisco Meraki and hundreds of others enterprise organizations around the world, get their data business ready, faster. >> Hoshang talk to us a little bit about what's going on at Cisco Meraki, how you're leveraging Matillion from a productivity standpoint. >> I've really been a Matillion fan for a while, actually even before Cisco Meraki at my previous company, LiveRamp. And you know, we brought Matillion to LiveRamp because you know, to Matthew's point, there is a stage in every data growth as I want to call it, where you have different companies at different stages. But to get data, data ready, you really need a platform like Matillion because it makes it really easy. So you have to understand Matillion, I think it's designed for someone that uses a lot of code but also someone that uses no code because the UI is so good. Someone like a marketer who doesn't really understand what's going on with that data but wants to be a data driven marketer when they look at the UI they immediately get it. They're just like, oh, I get what's happening with my data. And so that's the brilliance of Matillion and to get data to that data ready part, Matillion does a really, really good job because what we've been able to do is blend so many different data sources. So there is an abundance of data. Data is siloed though. And the connectivity between different data is getting harder and harder. And so here comes the Matillion with it's really simple solution, easy to use platform, powerful and we get to use all of that. So to really change the way we've thought about our analytics, the way we've progressed our division, yeah. >> You're always asking about superpowers and that is a superpower of Matillion 'cause you know, low-code, no-code sounds great but it only gets you a quarter of the way there, maybe 50% of the way there. You're kind of an "and" not an "or." >> That's a hundred percent right. And so I mentioned the Data Productivity Cloud earlier which is the name of this platform of technology we provide. That's all to do with making data business ready. And so I think one of the things we've seen in this industry over the past few years is a kind of extreme decomposition in terms of vendors of making data business ready. You've got vendors that just do loading, you've got vendors that just do a bit of data transformation, you've got vendors that do data ops and orchestration, you've got vendors that do reverse ETL. And so with the data productivity platform, you've got all of that. And particularly in this kind of, macroeconomic heavy weather that we're now starting to face, I think companies are looking for that. It's like, I don't want to buy five things, five sets of skills, five expensive licenses. I want one platform that can do it. But to your point David, it's the and not the or. We talk about the Data Productivity Cloud, the DPC, as being everyone ready. And what we mean by that is if you are the tech savvy marketer who wants to get a particular insight and you understand what a Rowan economy is, but you're not necessarily a hardcore super geeky data engineer then you can visual low-code, no-code, your data to a point where it's business ready. You can do that really quick. It's easy to understand, it's faster to ramp people onto those projects cause it like explains itself, faster to hand it over cause it's self-documenting. But, they'll always be individuals, teams, "and", "or" use cases that want to high-code as well. Maybe you want to code in SQL or Python, increasingly of course in DBT and you can do that on top of the Data Productivity Cloud as well. So you're not having to make a choice, but is that right? >> So one of the things that Matillion really delivers is speed to insight. I've always said that, you know, when you want to be business ready you want to make fast decisions, you want to act on data quickly, Matillion allows you to, this feed to insight is just unbelievably fast because you blend all of these different data sources, you can find the deficiencies in your process, you fix that and you can quickly turn things around and I don't think there's any other platform that I've ever used that has that ability. So the speed to insight is so tremendous with Matillion. >> The thing I always assume going on in our customers teams, like you run Hoshang is that the visual metaphor, be it around the orchestration and data ops jobs, be it around the transformation. I hope it makes it easier for teams not only to build it in the first place, but to live with it, right? To hand it over to other people and all that good stuff. Is that true? >> Let me highlight that a little bit more and better for you. So, say for example, if you don't have a platform like Matillion, you don't really have a central repository. >> Yeah. >> Where all of your codes meet, you could have a get repository, you could do all of those things. But, for example, for definitions, business definitions, any of those kind of things, you don't want it to live in just a spreadsheet. You want it to have a central platform where everybody can go in, there's detailed notes, copious notes that you can make on Matillion and people know exactly which flow to go to and be part of, and so I kind of think that that's really, really important because that's really helped us in a big, big way. 'Cause when I first got there, you know, you were pulling code from different scripts and things and you were trying to piece everything together. But when you have a platform like Matillion and you actually see it seamlessly across, it's just so phenomenal. >> So, I want to pick up on something Matthew said about, consolidating platforms and vendors because we have some data from PTR, one of our survey partners and they went out, every quarter they do surveys and they asked the customers that were going to decrease their spending in the quarter, "How are you going to do it?" And number one, by far, like, over a third said, "We're going to consolidate redundant vendors." Way ahead of cloud, we going to optimize cloud resource that was next at like 15%. So, confirms what you were saying and you're hearing that a lot. Will you wait? And I think we never get rid of stuff, we talk about it all the time. We call it GRS, get rid of stuff. Were you able to consolidate or at least minimize your expense around? >> Hoshang: Yeah, absolutely. >> What we were able to do is identify different parts of our tech stack that were just either deficient or duplicate, you know, so they're just like, we don't want any duplicate efforts, we just want to be able to have like, a single platform that does things, does things well and Matillion helped us identify all of those different and how do we choose the right tech stack. It's also about like Matillion is so easy to integrate with any tech stack, you know, it's just they have a generic API tool that you can log into anything besides all of the components that are already there. So it's a great platform to help you do that. >> And the three things we always say about the Data Productivity Cloud, everyone ready, we spoke about this is whether low-code, no-code, quasi-technical, quasi-business person using it, through to a high-end data engineer. You're going to feel at home on the DPC. The second one, which Hoshang was just alluding to there is stack ready, right? So it is built for AWS, built for Snowflake, built for Redshift, pure tight integration, push down ELT better than you could write yourself by hand. And then the final one is future ready, which is this idea that you can start now super easy. And we buy software quickly nowadays, right? We spin it up, we try it out and before we know it, the whole organization is using it. And so the future ready talks about that continuum of being able to launch in five minutes, learn it in five hours, deliver your first project in five days and yet still be happy that it's an enterprise scalable platform, five years down track including integrating with all the different things. So Matillion's job holding up the end of the bargain that Hoshang was just talking about there is to ensure we keep putting the features integrations and support into the Data Productivity Cloud to make sure that Hoshang's team can continue to live inside it and do all the things they need to do. >> Hoshang, you talked about the speed to insight being tremendously fast, but if I'm looking at Cisco Meraki from a high level business outcome perspective, what are some of those outcomes that a Matillion is helping Cisco Meraki to achieve. >> So I can just talk in general, not giving you like any specific numbers or anything, but for example, we were trying to understand how well our small and medium business campaigns were doing and we had to actually pull in data from multiple different sources. So not just, our instances of Marketo and Salesforce, we had to look at our internal databases. So Matillion helped us blend all of that together. Once I had all of that data blended, it was then ready to be analyzed. And once we had that analysis done, we were able to confirm that our SMB campaigns were doing well but these the things that we need to do to improve them. When we did that and all of that happened so quickly because they were like, well you need to get data from here, you need to get data from there. And we're like, great, we'll just plug, plug, plug. We put it all together, build transformations and you know we produced this insight and then we were able to reform, refine, and keep getting better and better at it. And you know, we had a 40X return on SMB campaigns. It's unbelievable. >> And there's the revenue tie in right there. >> Hoshang: Yeah. >> Matthew, I know you've been super busy, tons of meetings, you didn't get to see the whole keynote, but one of the themes of Adam Selipsky's keynote was, you know, the three letter word of ETL, they laid out a vision of zero ETL and then they announced zero ETL for Aurora and Redshift. And you think about ETL, I remember the days they said, "Okay, we're going to do ELT." Which is like, raising the debt ceiling, we're just going to kick the can down the road. So, what do you think about that vision? You know, how does it relate to what you guys are doing? >> So there was a, I don't know if this only works in the UK or it works globally. It was a good line many years ago. Rumors of my death are premature or so I think it was an obituary had gone out in the times by accident and that's how the guy responded to it. Something like that. It's a little bit like that. The announcement earlier within the AWS space of zero ETL between platforms like Aurora and Redshift and perhaps more over time is really about data movement, right? So it's about do I need to do a load of high cost in terms of coding and compute, movement of data between one platform, another. At Matillion, we've always seen data movement as an enabling technology, which gets you to the value add of transformation. My favorite metaphor to bring this to life is one of iron. So the world's made of iron, right? The world is literally made of iron ore but iron ore isn't useful until you turn it to steel. Loading data is digging out iron ore from the ground and moving it to the refinery. Transformation of data is turning iron ore into steel and what the announcements you saw earlier from AWS are more about the quarry to the factory bit than they are about the iron ore to the steel bit. And so, I think it's great that platforms are making it easier to move data between them, but it doesn't change the need for Hoshang's business professionals to refine that data into something useful to drive their marketing campaigns. >> Exactly, it's quarry to the factory and a very Snowflake like in a way, right? You make it easy to get in. >> It's like, don't get me wrong, I'm great to see investment going into the Redshift business and the AWS data analytics stack. We do a lot of business there. But yes, this stuff is also there on Snowflake, already. >> I mean come on, we've seen this for years. You know, I know there's a big love fest between Snowflake and AWS 'cause they're selling so much business in the field. But look that we saw it separating computing from storage, then AWS does it and now, you know, why not? It's good sense. That's what customers want. The customer obsessed data sharing is another thing. >> And if you take data sharing as an example from our friends at Snowflake, when that was announced a few people possibly, yourselves, said, "Oh, Matthew what do you think about this? You're in the data movement business." And I was like, "Ah, I'm not really actually, some of my competitors are in the data movement business. I have data movement as part of my platform. We don't charge directly for it. It's just part of the platform." And really what it's to do is to get the data into a place where you can do the fun stuff with it of refining into steel. And so if Snowflake or now AWS and the Redshift group are making that easier that's just faster to fun for me really. >> Yeah, sure. >> Last question, a question for both of you. If you had, you have a brand new shiny car, you got a bumper sticker that you want to put on that car to tell everyone about Matillion, everyone about Cisco Meraki, what does that bumper sticker say? >> So for Matillion, it says Matillion is the Data Productivity Cloud. We help you make your data business ready, faster. And then for a joke I'd write, "Which you are going to need in the face of this tsunami of data." So that's what mine would say. >> Love it. Hoshang, what would you say? >> I would say that Cisco makes some of the best products for IT professionals. And I don't think you can, really do the things you do in IT without any Cisco product. Really phenomenal products. And, we've gone so much beyond just the IT realm. So you know, it's been phenomenal. >> Awesome. Guys, it's been a pleasure having you back on the program. Congrats to you now Hoshang, an alumni of theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> But thank you for talking to us, Matthew, about what's going on with Matillion so much since we've seen you last. I can imagine how much worse going to go on until we see you again. But we appreciate, especially having the Cisco Meraki customer example that really articulates the value of data for everyone. We appreciate your insights and we appreciate your time. >> Thank you. >> Privilege to be here. Thanks for having us. >> Thank you. >> Pleasure. For our guests and Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live enterprise and emerging tech coverage.

>>Hey everyone. Welcome back to Las Vegas. This is the Cube's live coverage of day. One of snowflake summit 22 fourth annual. We're very happy to be here. A lot of people here, Lisa Martin with Dave Valante, David's always great to be at these events with you, but me. This one is shot out of the cannon from day one, data, data, data, data. That's what you heard of here. First, we have two guests joining us next, please. Welcome Matthew Scalian. Who's an alumni of the cube CEO and founder of Matillion and Jer staying chief data architect and global head of data engineering from Western union. Welcome gentlemen. Thank >>You. Great to be here. >>We're gonna unpack the Western union story in a second. I love that, but Matthew, I wanted to start with you, give the audience who might not be familiar with Matillion an overview, your vision, your differentiators, your joint value statement with snowflake, >>Of course. Well, first of all, thank you for having me on the cube. Again, Matillion S mission is to make the world's data useful, and we do that by providing a technology platform that allows our customers to load transform, synchronize, and orchestrate data on the snowflake data cloud. And on, on the cloud in general, we've been doing that for a number of years. We're co headquartered in the UK and the us, hence my dat accents. And we work with all sorts of companies, commercial scale, large end enterprises, particularly including of course, I'm delighted to say our friends at Western union. So that's why we're here today. >>And we're gonna talk about that in a second, but I wanna understand what's new with the data integration platform from Matillion perspective, lots of stuff coming out, give us an overview. >>Yeah, of course, it's been a really busy year and it's great to be here at snowflake summit to be able to share some of what we've been working on. You know, the Matillion platform is all about making our customers as productive as possible in terms of time to value insight on that analytics, data science, AI projects, like get you to value faster. And so the more technology we can put in the platform and the easier we can make it to use, the better we can achieve that goal. So this year we've, we've shipped a product that we call MDL 2.0, that's enterprise focused, exquisitely, easy to use batch data pipelines. So customers can load data even more simply into the snowflake data cloud, very excitingly we've also launched Matillion CDC. And so this is an industry first cloud native writer, head log based change data capture. >>I haven't come up with a shorter way of saying that, but, and surprise customers need this technology and it's been around for years, but mostly pre-cloud technology. That's been repurposed for the cloud. And so Matillion has rebuilt that concept for the cloud. And we launched that earlier this year. And of course we've continued to build out the core Matillion ETL platform that today over a thousand joint snowflake Matillion customers use, including Western union, of course we've been adding features there such as universal connectivity. And so a challenge that all data integration vendors have is having the right connectors for their source systems. Universal connectivity allows you to connect to any source system without writing code point and click. We shape that as well. So it's been a busy year, >>Was really simple. Sorry. I love that. He said that and it also sounded great with your accent. I didn't wanna >>Thank you. Excellent. Javier, talk about your role at Western union in, in what you've seen in terms of the evolution of the, the data stack. >>So in the last few years, well, a little bit of Western union, a 70 or 170 year old company, pretty much everybody knows what Western union is, right? Driving an interesting synergy from what Matthew says, when data moves money moves, that's what we do when he moves the da, he moves the data. We move the money. That's the synergy between, you know, us and the organization that support us from data move perspective. So what I've seen in the last few years is obviously a shift towards the cloud, but, you know, within the cloud itself, obviously there's a lot of players as well. And we as customers have always been wishing to have a short, smaller footprint of data so that the movement becomes a little lesser. You know, interestingly enough, in this conference, I've heard some very interesting stuff, which kind of helping me to bring that footprint down to a manageable number, to be more governed, to be more, you know, effective in terms of delivering more end results for my customers as well. >>So Matillion has been a great partner for us from our cloud adoption perspective. During the COVID times, we were a re we are a, you know, multi-channel organization. We have retail stores as well, our digital presence, but people just couldn't go to the retail stores. So we had to find ways to accelerate our adoption, make sure our systems are scaling and making sure that we are delivering the same experience to our customers. And that's where, you know, tools like Matillion came in and really, really partnered up with us to kind of bring it up to the level. >>So talk specifically about the stack evolution. Cause I have this sort of theory that everybody talks about injecting data and, and machine intelligence and AI and machine learning into apps. But the application development stack is like totally separate from the, the data analytics and the data pipeline stack. And the database is somewhere over here as well. How is that evolving? Are those worlds coming together? >>Some part of those words are coming together, but where I still see the difference is your heavy lifting will still happen on the data stack. You cannot have that heavy lifting on the app because if once the apps becomes heavy, you'll have trouble communicating with, with, with the organizations. You know, you need to be as lean as possible in the front end and make sure things are curated. Things are available on demand as soon as possible. And that's why you see all these API driven applications are doing really, really well because they're delivering those results back to the, the leaner applications much faster. So I'm a big proponent of, yes, it can be hybrid, but the majority of the heavy lifting still needs to happen down at the data layer, which is where I think snowflake plays a really good role >>In APIs are the connective tissue >>APIs connections. Yes. >>Also I think, you know, in terms of the, the data stack, there's another parallel that you can draw from applications, right? So technology is when they're new, we tend to do things in a granular way. We write a lot of code. We do a lot of sticking of things together with plasters and sticky tape. And it's the purview of high end engineers and people enthusiastic about that to get started. Then the business starts to see the value in this stuff, and we need to move a lot faster. And technology solutions come in and this is what the, the data cloud is all about, right? The technology getting out of the way and allowing people to focus on higher order problems of innovating around analytics, data applications, AI, machine learning, you know, that's also where Matillion sit as well as other companies in this modern enterprise data stack is technology vendors are coming in allowing organizations to move faster and have high levels of productivity. So I think that's a good parallel to application development. >>And's just follow up on that. When you think about data prep and you know, all the focus on data quality, you've got a data team, you know, in the data pipeline, a very specialized, maybe even hyper specialized data engineers, quality engineers, data, quality engineers, data analysts, data scientist, but they, and they serve a lot of different business lines. They don't necessarily have the business, they don't have the business context typically. So it's kind of this back and forth. Do you see that changing in your organization or, or the are the lines of business taking more responsibility for the data and, and addressing that problem? It's, >>It's like you die by thousand paper cuts or you just die. Right? That's the kind >>Of, right, >>Because if I say it's, it's good to be federated, it comes with its own flaws. But if I say, if it's good to be decentralized, then I'm the, the guy to choke, right? And in my role, I'm the guy to choke. So I've selectively tried to be a pseudo federated organization, where do I do have folks reporting into our organization, but they sit close to the line of business because the business understands data better. We are working with them hand in glove. We have dedicated teams that support them. And our problem is we are also regional. We are 200 countries. So the regional needs are very different than our us needs. Majority of the organizations that you probably end up talking to have like very us focused, 50 per more than 50% of our revenue is international. So we do, we are dealing with people who are international, their needs for data, their needs for quality and their needs for the, the delivery of those analytics and the data is completely different. And so we have to be a little bit more closer to the business than traditionally. Some, some organizations feel that they need >>To, is there need for the underlying infrastructure and the operational details that as diverse, or is that something that you bring standardization to the, >>So the best part about this, the cloud that happened to us is exactly that, because at one point of time, I had infrastructure in one country. I had another infrastructure sitting in another country, regional teams, making different different decisions of bringing in different tools. Now I can standardize. I will say, Matillion is our standard for doing ETL work. If this is the use case, but then it gets deployed across the geographies because the cloud helps us or the cloud platform helps us to manage it. Sitting down here. I have three centers around the world, you know, Costa Rica, India, and the us. I can manage 24 7 sitting here. No >>Problem. So the underlying our infrastructure is, is global, but the data needs are dealt with locally. Yep. >>One of the pav question, I was just thinking JVE is super well positioned funds for you, which is around that business domain knowledge versus technical expertise. Cause again, early in technology journeys tend, things tend to be very technical and therefore only high end engineers can do it, but high end engineers are scar. Right? Right. And, and also, I mean, we survey our hundreds of large enterprise customers and they tell us they spend two thirds of their time doing stuff they don't really want to do like reinventing the wheel, basic data movement and the low order staff. And so if you can make those people more productive and allow them to focus on higher value problems, but also bring pseudo technical people into it. Overall, the business can go a lot faster. And the way you do that is by making it easier. That's why Matillion is a low code NOCO platform, but Jer and Western union are doing this right. I >>Mean, I can't compete with AWS and Google to hire people. So I need to find people who are smart to figure the products that we have to make them work. I don't want them to spend time on infrastructure, Adam, I don't want them to spend time on trying to manage platforms. I want them to deliver the data, deliver the results to the business so that they can build and serve their customers better. So it's a little bit of a different approach, different mindset. I used to be in consulting for 17 years. I thought I knew it all, but it changed overnight when I own all of these systems. And I'm like, I need to be a little bit more smarter than this. I need to be more proactive and figure out what my business needs rather than what just from a technology needs. It's more what the business needs and how I can deliver that needs to them. So simple analogy, you know, I can build the best architecture in the world. It's gonna cost me an arm and leg, but I can't drive it because the pipeline is not there. So I can have a Ferrari, but I can't drive it. It's still capped at 80, 80 miles an hour. So rather than spend, rather than building one Ferrari, let me have 10 Toyotas or 10 Fs, which will go further along and do better for my cus my, for my customers. >>So how do you see this whole, we hearing about the data cloud. We hear about the marketplace, data products now, application development inside the data cloud. How do you see that affecting not so much the productivity of the data teams. I don't wanna necessarily say, but the product, the value that, that customers like you can get out >>Data. So data is moving closer to the business. That's the value I see, because you are injecting the business and you're injecting the application much more closer to the data because it, in the past, it was days and days of, you know, churn the data to actually clear results. Now the data has moved much closer. So I have a much faster turnaround time. The business can adapt and actually react much, much faster. It took us like 16 to 30 days to deliver, you know, data for marketing. Now I can turn it down in four hours. If I see something happening, I'll give you an example. The war in Ukraine happened. Let is shut down operations in Russia. Ukraine is cash swamp. There's no cash in Ukraine. We have cash. We roll out campaign, $0 money, transferred to Ukraine within four hours of the world going on. That's the impact that we have >>Massive impact. That's huge, especially with such a macro challenge going on, on the, in, in the world. Thank you so much for sharing the Matillion snowflake partnership story, how it's helping Western union really transform into a data company. We love hearing stories of organizations that are 170 years old that have always really been technology focused, but to see it come to life so quickly is pretty powerful. Guys. Thank you so much for your time. Thanks >>Guys. Thank you, having it. Thank >>You >>For Dave Velante and our guests. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cubes live coverage of snowflake summit 22 live from Las Vegas. Stick around. We'll be back after a short break.

>>From the Cube Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from the cube and E T R. This is breaking analysis with Dave Valante. >>Making technology predictions in 2022 was tricky business, especially if you were projecting the performance of markets or identifying I P O prospects and making binary forecast on data AI and the macro spending climate and other related topics in enterprise tech 2022, of course was characterized by a seesaw economy where central banks were restructuring their balance sheets. The war on Ukraine fueled inflation supply chains were a mess. And the unintended consequences of of forced march to digital and the acceleration still being sorted out. Hello and welcome to this week's weekly on Cube Insights powered by E T R. In this breaking analysis, we continue our annual tradition of transparently grading last year's enterprise tech predictions. And you may or may not agree with our self grading system, but look, we're gonna give you the data and you can draw your own conclusions and tell you what, tell us what you think. >>All right, let's get right to it. So our first prediction was tech spending increases by 8% in 2022. And as we exited 2021 CIOs, they were optimistic about their digital transformation plans. You know, they rushed to make changes to their business and were eager to sharpen their focus and continue to iterate on their digital business models and plug the holes that they, the, in the learnings that they had. And so we predicted that 8% rise in enterprise tech spending, which looked pretty good until Ukraine and the Fed decided that, you know, had to rush and make up for lost time. We kind of nailed the momentum in the energy sector, but we can't give ourselves too much credit for that layup. And as of October, Gartner had it spending growing at just over 5%. I think it was 5.1%. So we're gonna take a C plus on this one and, and move on. >>Our next prediction was basically kind of a slow ground ball. The second base, if I have to be honest, but we felt it was important to highlight that security would remain front and center as the number one priority for organizations in 2022. As is our tradition, you know, we try to up the degree of difficulty by specifically identifying companies that are gonna benefit from these trends. So we highlighted some possible I P O candidates, which of course didn't pan out. S NQ was on our radar. The company had just had to do another raise and they recently took a valuation hit and it was a down round. They raised 196 million. So good chunk of cash, but, but not the i p O that we had predicted Aqua Securities focus on containers and cloud native. That was a trendy call and we thought maybe an M SS P or multiple managed security service providers like Arctic Wolf would I p o, but no way that was happening in the crummy market. >>Nonetheless, we think these types of companies, they're still faring well as the talent shortage in security remains really acute, particularly in the sort of mid-size and small businesses that often don't have a sock Lacework laid off 20% of its workforce in 2022. And CO C e o Dave Hatfield left the company. So that I p o didn't, didn't happen. It was probably too early for Lacework. Anyway, meanwhile you got Netscope, which we've cited as strong in the E T R data as particularly in the emerging technology survey. And then, you know, I lumia holding its own, you know, we never liked that 7 billion price tag that Okta paid for auth zero, but we loved the TAM expansion strategy to target developers beyond sort of Okta's enterprise strength. But we gotta take some points off of the failure thus far of, of Okta to really nail the integration and the go to market model with azero and build, you know, bring that into the, the, the core Okta. >>So the focus on endpoint security that was a winner in 2022 is CrowdStrike led that charge with others holding their own, not the least of which was Palo Alto Networks as it continued to expand beyond its core network security and firewall business, you know, through acquisition. So overall we're gonna give ourselves an A minus for this relatively easy call, but again, we had some specifics associated with it to make it a little tougher. And of course we're watching ve very closely this this coming year in 2023. The vendor consolidation trend. You know, according to a recent Palo Alto network survey with 1300 SecOps pros on average organizations have more than 30 tools to manage security tools. So this is a logical way to optimize cost consolidating vendors and consolidating redundant vendors. The E T R data shows that's clearly a trend that's on the upswing. >>Now moving on, a big theme of 2020 and 2021 of course was remote work and hybrid work and new ways to work and return to work. So we predicted in 2022 that hybrid work models would become the dominant protocol, which clearly is the case. We predicted that about 33% of the workforce would come back to the office in 2022 in September. The E T R data showed that figure was at 29%, but organizations expected that 32% would be in the office, you know, pretty much full-time by year end. That hasn't quite happened, but we were pretty close with the projection, so we're gonna take an A minus on this one. Now, supply chain disruption was another big theme that we felt would carry through 2022. And sure that sounds like another easy one, but as is our tradition, again we try to put some binary metrics around our predictions to put some meat in the bone, so to speak, and and allow us than you to say, okay, did it come true or not? >>So we had some data that we presented last year and supply chain issues impacting hardware spend. We said at the time, you can see this on the left hand side of this chart, the PC laptop demand would remain above pre covid levels, which would reverse a decade of year on year declines, which I think started in around 2011, 2012. Now, while demand is down this year pretty substantially relative to 2021, I D C has worldwide unit shipments for PCs at just over 300 million for 22. If you go back to 2019 and you're looking at around let's say 260 million units shipped globally, you know, roughly, so, you know, pretty good call there. Definitely much higher than pre covid levels. But so what you might be asking why the B, well, we projected that 30% of customers would replace security appliances with cloud-based services and that more than a third would replace their internal data center server and storage hardware with cloud services like 30 and 40% respectively. >>And we don't have explicit survey data on exactly these metrics, but anecdotally we see this happening in earnest. And we do have some data that we're showing here on cloud adoption from ET R'S October survey where the midpoint of workloads running in the cloud is around 34% and forecast, as you can see, to grow steadily over the next three years. So this, well look, this is not, we understand it's not a one-to-one correlation with our prediction, but it's a pretty good bet that we were right, but we gotta take some points off, we think for the lack of unequivocal proof. Cause again, we always strive to make our predictions in ways that can be measured as accurate or not. Is it binary? Did it happen, did it not? Kind of like an O K R and you know, we strive to provide data as proof and in this case it's a bit fuzzy. >>We have to admit that although we're pretty comfortable that the prediction was accurate. And look, when you make an hard forecast, sometimes you gotta pay the price. All right, next, we said in 2022 that the big four cloud players would generate 167 billion in IS and PaaS revenue combining for 38% market growth. And our current forecasts are shown here with a comparison to our January, 2022 figures. So coming into this year now where we are today, so currently we expect 162 billion in total revenue and a 33% growth rate. Still very healthy, but not on our mark. So we think a w s is gonna miss our predictions by about a billion dollars, not, you know, not bad for an 80 billion company. So they're not gonna hit that expectation though of getting really close to a hundred billion run rate. We thought they'd exit the year, you know, closer to, you know, 25 billion a quarter and we don't think they're gonna get there. >>Look, we pretty much nailed Azure even though our prediction W was was correct about g Google Cloud platform surpassing Alibaba, Alibaba, we way overestimated the performance of both of those companies. So we're gonna give ourselves a C plus here and we think, yeah, you might think it's a little bit harsh, we could argue for a B minus to the professor, but the misses on GCP and Alibaba we think warrant a a self penalty on this one. All right, let's move on to our prediction about Supercloud. We said it becomes a thing in 2022 and we think by many accounts it has, despite the naysayers, we're seeing clear evidence that the concept of a layer of value add that sits above and across clouds is taking shape. And on this slide we showed just some of the pickup in the industry. I mean one of the most interesting is CloudFlare, the biggest supercloud antagonist. >>Charles Fitzgerald even predicted that no vendor would ever use the term in their marketing. And that would be proof if that happened that Supercloud was a thing and he said it would never happen. Well CloudFlare has, and they launched their version of Supercloud at their developer week. Chris Miller of the register put out a Supercloud block diagram, something else that Charles Fitzgerald was, it was was pushing us for, which is rightly so, it was a good call on his part. And Chris Miller actually came up with one that's pretty good at David Linthicum also has produced a a a A block diagram, kind of similar, David uses the term metacloud and he uses the term supercloud kind of interchangeably to describe that trend. And so we we're aligned on that front. Brian Gracely has covered the concept on the popular cloud podcast. Berkeley launched the Sky computing initiative. >>You read through that white paper and many of the concepts highlighted in the Supercloud 3.0 community developed definition align with that. Walmart launched a platform with many of the supercloud salient attributes. So did Goldman Sachs, so did Capital One, so did nasdaq. So you know, sorry you can hate the term, but very clearly the evidence is gathering for the super cloud storm. We're gonna take an a plus on this one. Sorry, haters. Alright, let's talk about data mesh in our 21 predictions posts. We said that in the 2020s, 75% of large organizations are gonna re-architect their big data platforms. So kind of a decade long prediction. We don't like to do that always, but sometimes it's warranted. And because it was a longer term prediction, we, at the time in, in coming into 22 when we were evaluating our 21 predictions, we took a grade of incomplete because the sort of decade long or majority of the decade better part of the decade prediction. >>So last year, earlier this year, we said our number seven prediction was data mesh gains momentum in 22. But it's largely confined and narrow data problems with limited scope as you can see here with some of the key bullets. So there's a lot of discussion in the data community about data mesh and while there are an increasing number of examples, JP Morgan Chase, Intuit, H S P C, HelloFresh, and others that are completely rearchitecting parts of their data platform completely rearchitecting entire data platforms is non-trivial. There are organizational challenges, there're data, data ownership, debates, technical considerations, and in particular two of the four fundamental data mesh principles that the, the need for a self-service infrastructure and federated computational governance are challenging. Look, democratizing data and facilitating data sharing creates conflicts with regulatory requirements around data privacy. As such many organizations are being really selective with their data mesh implementations and hence our prediction of narrowing the scope of data mesh initiatives. >>I think that was right on J P M C is a good example of this, where you got a single group within a, within a division narrowly implementing the data mesh architecture. They're using a w s, they're using data lakes, they're using Amazon Glue, creating a catalog and a variety of other techniques to meet their objectives. They kind of automating data quality and it was pretty well thought out and interesting approach and I think it's gonna be made easier by some of the announcements that Amazon made at the recent, you know, reinvent, particularly trying to eliminate ET t l, better connections between Aurora and Redshift and, and, and better data sharing the data clean room. So a lot of that is gonna help. Of course, snowflake has been on this for a while now. Many other companies are facing, you know, limitations as we said here and this slide with their Hadoop data platforms. They need to do new, some new thinking around that to scale. HelloFresh is a really good example of this. Look, the bottom line is that organizations want to get more value from data and having a centralized, highly specialized teams that own the data problem, it's been a barrier and a blocker to success. The data mesh starts with organizational considerations as described in great detail by Ash Nair of Warner Brothers. So take a listen to this clip. >>Yeah, so when people think of Warner Brothers, you always think of like the movie studio, but we're more than that, right? I mean, you think of H B O, you think of t n t, you think of C N N. We have 30 plus brands in our portfolio and each have their own needs. So the, the idea of a data mesh really helps us because what we can do is we can federate access across the company so that, you know, CNN can work at their own pace. You know, when there's election season, they can ingest their own data and they don't have to, you know, bump up against, as an example, HBO if Game of Thrones is going on. >>So it's often the case that data mesh is in the eyes of the implementer. And while a company's implementation may not strictly adhere to Jamma Dani's vision of data mesh, and that's okay, the goal is to use data more effectively. And despite Gartner's attempts to deposition data mesh in favor of the somewhat confusing or frankly far more confusing data fabric concept that they stole from NetApp data mesh is taking hold in organizations globally today. So we're gonna take a B on this one. The prediction is shaping up the way we envision, but as we previously reported, it's gonna take some time. The better part of a decade in our view, new standards have to emerge to make this vision become reality and they'll come in the form of both open and de facto approaches. Okay, our eighth prediction last year focused on the face off between Snowflake and Databricks. >>And we realized this popular topic, and maybe one that's getting a little overplayed, but these are two companies that initially, you know, looked like they were shaping up as partners and they, by the way, they are still partnering in the field. But you go back a couple years ago, the idea of using an AW w s infrastructure, Databricks machine intelligence and applying that on top of Snowflake as a facile data warehouse, still very viable. But both of these companies, they have much larger ambitions. They got big total available markets to chase and large valuations that they have to justify. So what's happening is, as we've previously reported, each of these companies is moving toward the other firm's core domain and they're building out an ecosystem that'll be critical for their future. So as part of that effort, we said each is gonna become aggressive investors and maybe start doing some m and a and they have in various companies. >>And on this chart that we produced last year, we studied some of the companies that were targets and we've added some recent investments of both Snowflake and Databricks. As you can see, they've both, for example, invested in elation snowflake's, put money into Lacework, the Secur security firm, ThoughtSpot, which is trying to democratize data with ai. Collibra is a governance platform and you can see Databricks investments in data transformation with D B T labs, Matillion doing simplified business intelligence hunters. So that's, you know, they're security investment and so forth. So other than our thought that we'd see Databricks I p o last year, this prediction been pretty spot on. So we'll give ourselves an A on that one. Now observability has been a hot topic and we've been covering it for a while with our friends at E T R, particularly Eric Bradley. Our number nine prediction last year was basically that if you're not cloud native and observability, you are gonna be in big trouble. >>So everything guys gotta go cloud native. And that's clearly been the case. Splunk, the big player in the space has been transitioning to the cloud, hasn't always been pretty, as we reported, Datadog real momentum, the elk stack, that's open source model. You got new entrants that we've cited before, like observe, honeycomb, chaos search and others that we've, we've reported on, they're all born in the cloud. So we're gonna take another a on this one, admittedly, yeah, it's a re reasonably easy call, but you gotta have a few of those in the mix. Okay, our last prediction, our number 10 was around events. Something the cube knows a little bit about. We said that a new category of events would emerge as hybrid and that for the most part is happened. So that's gonna be the mainstay is what we said. That pure play virtual events are gonna give way to hi hybrid. >>And the narrative is that virtual only events are, you know, they're good for quick hits, but lousy replacements for in-person events. And you know that said, organizations of all shapes and sizes, they learn how to create better virtual content and support remote audiences during the pandemic. So when we set at pure play is gonna give way to hybrid, we said we, we i we implied or specific or specified that the physical event that v i p experience is going defined. That overall experience and those v i p events would create a little fomo, fear of, of missing out in a virtual component would overlay that serves an audience 10 x the size of the physical. We saw that really two really good examples. Red Hat Summit in Boston, small event, couple thousand people served tens of thousands, you know, online. Second was Google Cloud next v i p event in, in New York City. >>Everything else was, was, was, was virtual. You know, even examples of our prediction of metaverse like immersion have popped up and, and and, and you know, other companies are doing roadshow as we predicted like a lot of companies are doing it. You're seeing that as a major trend where organizations are going with their sales teams out into the regions and doing a little belly to belly action as opposed to the big giant event. That's a definitely a, a trend that we're seeing. So in reviewing this prediction, the grade we gave ourselves is, you know, maybe a bit unfair, it should be, you could argue for a higher grade, but the, but the organization still haven't figured it out. They have hybrid experiences but they generally do a really poor job of leveraging the afterglow and of event of an event. It still tends to be one and done, let's move on to the next event or the next city. >>Let the sales team pick up the pieces if they were paying attention. So because of that, we're only taking a B plus on this one. Okay, so that's the review of last year's predictions. You know, overall if you average out our grade on the 10 predictions that come out to a b plus, I dunno why we can't seem to get that elusive a, but we're gonna keep trying our friends at E T R and we are starting to look at the data for 2023 from the surveys and all the work that we've done on the cube and our, our analysis and we're gonna put together our predictions. We've had literally hundreds of inbounds from PR pros pitching us. We've got this huge thick folder that we've started to review with our yellow highlighter. And our plan is to review it this month, take a look at all the data, get some ideas from the inbounds and then the e t R of January surveys in the field. >>It's probably got a little over a thousand responses right now. You know, they'll get up to, you know, 1400 or so. And once we've digested all that, we're gonna go back and publish our predictions for 2023 sometime in January. So stay tuned for that. All right, we're gonna leave it there for today. You wanna thank Alex Myerson who's on production and he manages the podcast, Ken Schiffman as well out of our, our Boston studio. I gotta really heartfelt thank you to Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight and their team. They helped get the word out on social and in our newsletters. Rob Ho is our editor in chief over at Silicon Angle who does some great editing for us. Thank you all. Remember all these podcasts are available or all these episodes are available is podcasts. Wherever you listen, just all you do Search Breaking analysis podcast, really getting some great traction there. Appreciate you guys subscribing. I published each week on wikibon.com, silicon angle.com or you can email me directly at david dot valante silicon angle.com or dm me Dante, or you can comment on my LinkedIn post. And please check out ETR AI for the very best survey data in the enterprise tech business. Some awesome stuff in there. This is Dante for the Cube Insights powered by etr. Thanks for watching and we'll see you next time on breaking analysis.

>> From The Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, bringing you data driven insights from The Cube at ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> The reverse momentum in tech stocks caused by rising interest rates, less attractive discounted cash flow models, and more tepid forward guidance, can be easily measured by public market valuations. And while there's lots of discussion about the impact on private companies and cash runway and 409A valuations, measuring the performance of non-public companies isn't as easy. IPOs have dried up and public statements by private companies, of course, they accentuate the good and they kind of hide the bad. Real data, unless you're an insider, is hard to find. Hello and welcome to this week's "Wikibon Cube Insights" powered by ETR. In this "Breaking Analysis", we unlock some of the secrets that non-public, emerging tech companies may or may not be sharing. And we do this by introducing you to a capability from ETR that we've not exposed you to over the past couple of years, it's called the Emerging Technologies Survey, and it is packed with sentiment data and performance data based on surveys of more than a thousand CIOs and IT buyers covering more than 400 companies. And we've invited back our colleague, Erik Bradley of ETR to help explain the survey and the data that we're going to cover today. Erik, this survey is something that I've not personally spent much time on, but I'm blown away at the data. It's really unique and detailed. First of all, welcome. Good to see you again. >> Great to see you too, Dave, and I'm really happy to be talking about the ETS or the Emerging Technology Survey. Even our own clients of constituents probably don't spend as much time in here as they should. >> Yeah, because there's so much in the mainstream, but let's pull up a slide to bring out the survey composition. Tell us about the study. How often do you run it? What's the background and the methodology? >> Yeah, you were just spot on the way you were talking about the private tech companies out there. So what we did is we decided to take all the vendors that we track that are not yet public and move 'em over to the ETS. And there isn't a lot of information out there. If you're not in Silicon (indistinct), you're not going to get this stuff. So PitchBook and Tech Crunch are two out there that gives some data on these guys. But what we really wanted to do was go out to our community. We have 6,000, ITDMs in our community. We wanted to ask them, "Are you aware of these companies? And if so, are you allocating any resources to them? Are you planning to evaluate them," and really just kind of figure out what we can do. So this particular survey, as you can see, 1000 plus responses, over 450 vendors that we track. And essentially what we're trying to do here is talk about your evaluation and awareness of these companies and also your utilization. And also if you're not utilizing 'em, then we can also figure out your sales conversion or churn. So this is interesting, not only for the ITDMs themselves to figure out what their peers are evaluating and what they should put in POCs against the big guys when contracts come up. But it's also really interesting for the tech vendors themselves to see how they're performing. >> And you can see 2/3 of the respondents are director level of above. You got 28% is C-suite. There is of course a North America bias, 70, 75% is North America. But these smaller companies, you know, that's when they start doing business. So, okay. We're going to do a couple of things here today. First, we're going to give you the big picture across the sectors that ETR covers within the ETS survey. And then we're going to look at the high and low sentiment for the larger private companies. And then we're going to do the same for the smaller private companies, the ones that don't have as much mindshare. And then I'm going to put those two groups together and we're going to look at two dimensions, actually three dimensions, which companies are being evaluated the most. Second, companies are getting the most usage and adoption of their offerings. And then third, which companies are seeing the highest churn rates, which of course is a silent killer of companies. And then finally, we're going to look at the sentiment and mindshare for two key areas that we like to cover often here on "Breaking Analysis", security and data. And data comprises database, including data warehousing, and then big data analytics is the second part of data. And then machine learning and AI is the third section within data that we're going to look at. Now, one other thing before we get into it, ETR very often will include open source offerings in the mix, even though they're not companies like TensorFlow or Kubernetes, for example. And we'll call that out during this discussion. The reason this is done is for context, because everyone is using open source. It is the heart of innovation and many business models are super glued to an open source offering, like take MariaDB, for example. There's the foundation and then there's with the open source code and then there, of course, the company that sells services around the offering. Okay, so let's first look at the highest and lowest sentiment among these private firms, the ones that have the highest mindshare. So they're naturally going to be somewhat larger. And we do this on two dimensions, sentiment on the vertical axis and mindshare on the horizontal axis and note the open source tool, see Kubernetes, Postgres, Kafka, TensorFlow, Jenkins, Grafana, et cetera. So Erik, please explain what we're looking at here, how it's derived and what the data tells us. >> Certainly, so there is a lot here, so we're going to break it down first of all by explaining just what mindshare and net sentiment is. You explain the axis. We have so many evaluation metrics, but we need to aggregate them into one so that way we can rank against each other. Net sentiment is really the aggregation of all the positive and subtracting out the negative. So the net sentiment is a very quick way of looking at where these companies stand versus their peers in their sectors and sub sectors. Mindshare is basically the awareness of them, which is good for very early stage companies. And you'll see some names on here that are obviously been around for a very long time. And they're clearly be the bigger on the axis on the outside. Kubernetes, for instance, as you mentioned, is open source. This de facto standard for all container orchestration, and it should be that far up into the right, because that's what everyone's using. In fact, the open source leaders are so prevalent in the emerging technology survey that we break them out later in our analysis, 'cause it's really not fair to include them and compare them to the actual companies that are providing the support and the security around that open source technology. But no survey, no analysis, no research would be complete without including these open source tech. So what we're looking at here, if I can just get away from the open source names, we see other things like Databricks and OneTrust . They're repeating as top net sentiment performers here. And then also the design vendors. People don't spend a lot of time on 'em, but Miro and Figma. This is their third survey in a row where they're just dominating that sentiment overall. And Adobe should probably take note of that because they're really coming after them. But Databricks, we all know probably would've been a public company by now if the market hadn't turned, but you can see just how dominant they are in a survey of nothing but private companies. And we'll see that again when we talk about the database later. >> And I'll just add, so you see automation anywhere on there, the big UiPath competitor company that was not able to get to the public markets. They've been trying. Snyk, Peter McKay's company, they've raised a bunch of money, big security player. They're doing some really interesting things in developer security, helping developers secure the data flow, H2O.ai, Dataiku AI company. We saw them at the Snowflake Summit. Redis Labs, Netskope and security. So a lot of names that we know that ultimately we think are probably going to be hitting the public market. Okay, here's the same view for private companies with less mindshare, Erik. Take us through this one. >> On the previous slide too real quickly, I wanted to pull that security scorecard and we'll get back into it. But this is a newcomer, that I couldn't believe how strong their data was, but we'll bring that up in a second. Now, when we go to the ones of lower mindshare, it's interesting to talk about open source, right? Kubernetes was all the way on the top right. Everyone uses containers. Here we see Istio up there. Not everyone is using service mesh as much. And that's why Istio is in the smaller breakout. But still when you talk about net sentiment, it's about the leader, it's the highest one there is. So really interesting to point out. Then we see other names like Collibra in the data side really performing well. And again, as always security, very well represented here. We have Aqua, Wiz, Armis, which is a standout in this survey this time around. They do IoT security. I hadn't even heard of them until I started digging into the data here. And I couldn't believe how well they were doing. And then of course you have AnyScale, which is doing a second best in this and the best name in the survey Hugging Face, which is a machine learning AI tool. Also doing really well on a net sentiment, but they're not as far along on that access of mindshare just yet. So these are again, emerging companies that might not be as well represented in the enterprise as they will be in a couple of years. >> Hugging Face sounds like something you do with your two year old. Like you said, you see high performers, AnyScale do machine learning and you mentioned them. They came out of Berkeley. Collibra Governance, InfluxData is on there. InfluxDB's a time series database. And yeah, of course, Alex, if you bring that back up, you get a big group of red dots, right? That's the bad zone, I guess, which Sisense does vis, Yellowbrick Data is a NPP database. How should we interpret the red dots, Erik? I mean, is it necessarily a bad thing? Could it be misinterpreted? What's your take on that? >> Sure, well, let me just explain the definition of it first from a data science perspective, right? We're a data company first. So the gray dots that you're seeing that aren't named, that's the mean that's the average. So in order for you to be on this chart, you have to be at least one standard deviation above or below that average. So that gray is where we're saying, "Hey, this is where the lump of average comes in. This is where everyone normally stands." So you either have to be an outperformer or an underperformer to even show up in this analysis. So by definition, yes, the red dots are bad. You're at least one standard deviation below the average of your peers. It's not where you want to be. And if you're on the lower left, not only are you not performing well from a utilization or an actual usage rate, but people don't even know who you are. So that's a problem, obviously. And the VCs and the PEs out there that are backing these companies, they're the ones who mostly are interested in this data. >> Yeah. Oh, that's great explanation. Thank you for that. No, nice benchmarking there and yeah, you don't want to be in the red. All right, let's get into the next segment here. Here going to look at evaluation rates, adoption and the all important churn. First new evaluations. Let's bring up that slide. And Erik, take us through this. >> So essentially I just want to explain what evaluation means is that people will cite that they either plan to evaluate the company or they're currently evaluating. So that means we're aware of 'em and we are choosing to do a POC of them. And then we'll see later how that turns into utilization, which is what a company wants to see, awareness, evaluation, and then actually utilizing them. That's sort of the life cycle for these emerging companies. So what we're seeing here, again, with very high evaluation rates. H2O, we mentioned. SecurityScorecard jumped up again. Chargebee, Snyk, Salt Security, Armis. A lot of security names are up here, Aqua, Netskope, which God has been around forever. I still can't believe it's in an Emerging Technology Survey But so many of these names fall in data and security again, which is why we decided to pick those out Dave. And on the lower side, Vena, Acton, those unfortunately took the dubious award of the lowest evaluations in our survey, but I prefer to focus on the positive. So SecurityScorecard, again, real standout in this one, they're in a security assessment space, basically. They'll come in and assess for you how your security hygiene is. And it's an area of a real interest right now amongst our ITDM community. >> Yeah, I mean, I think those, and then Arctic Wolf is up there too. They're doing managed services. You had mentioned Netskope. Yeah, okay. All right, let's look at now adoption. These are the companies whose offerings are being used the most and are above that standard deviation in the green. Take us through this, Erik. >> Sure, yet again, what we're looking at is, okay, we went from awareness, we went to evaluation. Now it's about utilization, which means a survey respondent's going to state "Yes, we evaluated and we plan to utilize it" or "It's already in our enterprise and we're actually allocating further resources to it." Not surprising, again, a lot of open source, the reason why, it's free. So it's really easy to grow your utilization on something that's free. But as you and I both know, as Red Hat proved, there's a lot of money to be made once the open source is adopted, right? You need the governance, you need the security, you need the support wrapped around it. So here we're seeing Kubernetes, Postgres, Apache Kafka, Jenkins, Grafana. These are all open source based names. But if we're looking at names that are non open source, we're going to see Databricks, Automation Anywhere, Rubrik all have the highest mindshare. So these are the names, not surprisingly, all names that probably should have been public by now. Everyone's expecting an IPO imminently. These are the names that have the highest mindshare. If we talk about the highest utilization rates, again, Miro and Figma pop up, and I know they're not household names, but they are just dominant in this survey. These are applications that are meant for design software and, again, they're going after an Autodesk or a CAD or Adobe type of thing. It is just dominant how high the utilization rates are here, which again is something Adobe should be paying attention to. And then you'll see a little bit lower, but also interesting, we see Collibra again, we see Hugging Face again. And these are names that are obviously in the data governance, ML, AI side. So we're seeing a ton of data, a ton of security and Rubrik was interesting in this one, too, high utilization and high mindshare. We know how pervasive they are in the enterprise already. >> Erik, Alex, keep that up for a second, if you would. So yeah, you mentioned Rubrik. Cohesity's not on there. They're sort of the big one. We're going to talk about them in a moment. Puppet is interesting to me because you remember the early days of that sort of space, you had Puppet and Chef and then you had Ansible. Red Hat bought Ansible and then Ansible really took off. So it's interesting to see Puppet on there as well. Okay. So now let's look at the churn because this one is where you don't want to be. It's, of course, all red 'cause churn is bad. Take us through this, Erik. >> Yeah, definitely don't want to be here and I don't love to dwell on the negative. So we won't spend as much time. But to your point, there's one thing I want to point out that think it's important. So you see Rubrik in the same spot, but Rubrik has so many citations in our survey that it actually would make sense that they're both being high utilization and churn just because they're so well represented. They have such a high overall representation in our survey. And the reason I call that out is Cohesity. Cohesity has an extremely high churn rate here about 17% and unlike Rubrik, they were not on the utilization side. So Rubrik is seeing both, Cohesity is not. It's not being utilized, but it's seeing a high churn. So that's the way you can look at this data and say, "Hm." Same thing with Puppet. You noticed that it was on the other slide. It's also on this one. So basically what it means is a lot of people are giving Puppet a shot, but it's starting to churn, which means it's not as sticky as we would like. One that was surprising on here for me was Tanium. It's kind of jumbled in there. It's hard to see in the middle, but Tanium, I was very surprised to see as high of a churn because what I do hear from our end user community is that people that use it, like it. It really kind of spreads into not only vulnerability management, but also that endpoint detection and response side. So I was surprised by that one, mostly to see Tanium in here. Mural, again, was another one of those application design softwares that's seeing a very high churn as well. >> So you're saying if you're in both... Alex, bring that back up if you would. So if you're in both like MariaDB is for example, I think, yeah, they're in both. They're both green in the previous one and red here, that's not as bad. You mentioned Rubrik is going to be in both. Cohesity is a bit of a concern. Cohesity just brought on Sanjay Poonen. So this could be a go to market issue, right? I mean, 'cause Cohesity has got a great product and they got really happy customers. So they're just maybe having to figure out, okay, what's the right ideal customer profile and Sanjay Poonen, I guarantee, is going to have that company cranking. I mean they had been doing very well on the surveys and had fallen off of a bit. The other interesting things wondering the previous survey I saw Cvent, which is an event platform. My only reason I pay attention to that is 'cause we actually have an event platform. We don't sell it separately. We bundle it as part of our offerings. And you see Hopin on here. Hopin raised a billion dollars during the pandemic. And we were like, "Wow, that's going to blow up." And so you see Hopin on the churn and you didn't see 'em in the previous chart, but that's sort of interesting. Like you said, let's not kind of dwell on the negative, but you really don't. You know, churn is a real big concern. Okay, now we're going to drill down into two sectors, security and data. Where data comprises three areas, database and data warehousing, machine learning and AI and big data analytics. So first let's take a look at the security sector. Now this is interesting because not only is it a sector drill down, but also gives an indicator of how much money the firm has raised, which is the size of that bubble. And to tell us if a company is punching above its weight and efficiently using its venture capital. Erik, take us through this slide. Explain the dots, the size of the dots. Set this up please. >> Yeah. So again, the axis is still the same, net sentiment and mindshare, but what we've done this time is we've taken publicly available information on how much capital company is raised and that'll be the size of the circle you see around the name. And then whether it's green or red is basically saying relative to the amount of money they've raised, how are they doing in our data? So when you see a Netskope, which has been around forever, raised a lot of money, that's why you're going to see them more leading towards red, 'cause it's just been around forever and kind of would expect it. Versus a name like SecurityScorecard, which is only raised a little bit of money and it's actually performing just as well, if not better than a name, like a Netskope. OneTrust doing absolutely incredible right now. BeyondTrust. We've seen the issues with Okta, right. So those are two names that play in that space that obviously are probably getting some looks about what's going on right now. Wiz, we've all heard about right? So raised a ton of money. It's doing well on net sentiment, but the mindshare isn't as well as you'd want, which is why you're going to see a little bit of that red versus a name like Aqua, which is doing container and application security. And hasn't raised as much money, but is really neck and neck with a name like Wiz. So that is why on a relative basis, you'll see that more green. As we all know, information security is never going away. But as we'll get to later in the program, Dave, I'm not sure in this current market environment, if people are as willing to do POCs and switch away from their security provider, right. There's a little bit of tepidness out there, a little trepidation. So right now we're seeing overall a slight pause, a slight cooling in overall evaluations on the security side versus historical levels a year ago. >> Now let's stay on here for a second. So a couple things I want to point out. So it's interesting. Now Snyk has raised over, I think $800 million but you can see them, they're high on the vertical and the horizontal, but now compare that to Lacework. It's hard to see, but they're kind of buried in the middle there. That's the biggest dot in this whole thing. I think I'm interpreting this correctly. They've raised over a billion dollars. It's a Mike Speiser company. He was the founding investor in Snowflake. So people watch that very closely, but that's an example of where they're not punching above their weight. They recently had a layoff and they got to fine tune things, but I'm still confident they they're going to do well. 'Cause they're approaching security as a data problem, which is probably people having trouble getting their arms around that. And then again, I see Arctic Wolf. They're not red, they're not green, but they've raised fair amount of money, but it's showing up to the right and decent level there. And a couple of the other ones that you mentioned, Netskope. Yeah, they've raised a lot of money, but they're actually performing where you want. What you don't want is where Lacework is, right. They've got some work to do to really take advantage of the money that they raised last November and prior to that. >> Yeah, if you're seeing that more neutral color, like you're calling out with an Arctic Wolf, like that means relative to their peers, this is where they should be. It's when you're seeing that red on a Lacework where we all know, wow, you raised a ton of money and your mindshare isn't where it should be. Your net sentiment is not where it should be comparatively. And then you see these great standouts, like Salt Security and SecurityScorecard and Abnormal. You know they haven't raised that much money yet, but their net sentiment's higher and their mindshare's doing well. So those basically in a nutshell, if you're a PE or a VC and you see a small green circle, then you're doing well, then it means you made a good investment. >> Some of these guys, I don't know, but you see these small green circles. Those are the ones you want to start digging into and maybe help them catch a wave. Okay, let's get into the data discussion. And again, three areas, database slash data warehousing, big data analytics and ML AI. First, we're going to look at the database sector. So Alex, thank you for bringing that up. Alright, take us through this, Erik. Actually, let me just say Postgres SQL. I got to ask you about this. It shows some funding, but that actually could be a mix of EDB, the company that commercializes Postgres and Postgres the open source database, which is a transaction system and kind of an open source Oracle. You see MariaDB is a database, but open source database. But the companies they've raised over $200 million and they filed an S-4. So Erik looks like this might be a little bit of mashup of companies and open source products. Help us understand this. >> Yeah, it's tough when you start dealing with the open source side and I'll be honest with you, there is a little bit of a mashup here. There are certain names here that are a hundred percent for profit companies. And then there are others that are obviously open source based like Redis is open source, but Redis Labs is the one trying to monetize the support around it. So you're a hundred percent accurate on this slide. I think one of the things here that's important to note though, is just how important open source is to data. If you're going to be going to any of these areas, it's going to be open source based to begin with. And Neo4j is one I want to call out here. It's not one everyone's familiar with, but it's basically geographical charting database, which is a name that we're seeing on a net sentiment side actually really, really high. When you think about it's the third overall net sentiment for a niche database play. It's not as big on the mindshare 'cause it's use cases aren't as often, but third biggest play on net sentiment. I found really interesting on this slide. >> And again, so MariaDB, as I said, they filed an S-4 I think $50 million in revenue, that might even be ARR. So they're not huge, but they're getting there. And by the way, MariaDB, if you don't know, was the company that was formed the day that Oracle bought Sun in which they got MySQL and MariaDB has done a really good job of replacing a lot of MySQL instances. Oracle has responded with MySQL HeatWave, which was kind of the Oracle version of MySQL. So there's some interesting battles going on there. If you think about the LAMP stack, the M in the LAMP stack was MySQL. And so now it's all MariaDB replacing that MySQL for a large part. And then you see again, the red, you know, you got to have some concerns about there. Aerospike's been around for a long time. SingleStore changed their name a couple years ago, last year. Yellowbrick Data, Fire Bolt was kind of going after Snowflake for a while, but yeah, you want to get out of that red zone. So they got some work to do. >> And Dave, real quick for the people that aren't aware, I just want to let them know that we can cut this data with the public company data as well. So we can cross over this with that because some of these names are competing with the larger public company names as well. So we can go ahead and cross reference like a MariaDB with a Mongo, for instance, or of something of that nature. So it's not in this slide, but at another point we can certainly explain on a relative basis how these private names are doing compared to the other ones as well. >> All right, let's take a quick look at analytics. Alex, bring that up if you would. Go ahead, Erik. >> Yeah, I mean, essentially here, I can't see it on my screen, my apologies. I just kind of went to blank on that. So gimme one second to catch up. >> So I could set it up while you're doing that. You got Grafana up and to the right. I mean, this is huge right. >> Got it thank you. I lost my screen there for a second. Yep. Again, open source name Grafana, absolutely up and to the right. But as we know, Grafana Labs is actually picking up a lot of speed based on Grafana, of course. And I think we might actually hear some noise from them coming this year. The names that are actually a little bit more disappointing than I want to call out are names like ThoughtSpot. It's been around forever. Their mindshare of course is second best here but based on the amount of time they've been around and the amount of money they've raised, it's not actually outperforming the way it should be. We're seeing Moogsoft obviously make some waves. That's very high net sentiment for that company. It's, you know, what, third, fourth position overall in this entire area, Another name like Fivetran, Matillion is doing well. Fivetran, even though it's got a high net sentiment, again, it's raised so much money that we would've expected a little bit more at this point. I know you know this space extremely well, but basically what we're looking at here and to the bottom left, you're going to see some names with a lot of red, large circles that really just aren't performing that well. InfluxData, however, second highest net sentiment. And it's really pretty early on in this stage and the feedback we're getting on this name is the use cases are great, the efficacy's great. And I think it's one to watch out for. >> InfluxData, time series database. The other interesting things I just noticed here, you got Tamer on here, which is that little small green. Those are the ones we were saying before, look for those guys. They might be some of the interesting companies out there and then observe Jeremy Burton's company. They do observability on top of Snowflake, not green, but kind of in that gray. So that's kind of cool. Monte Carlo is another one, they're sort of slightly green. They are doing some really interesting things in data and data mesh. So yeah, okay. So I can spend all day on this stuff, Erik, phenomenal data. I got to get back and really dig in. Let's end with machine learning and AI. Now this chart it's similar in its dimensions, of course, except for the money raised. We're not showing that size of the bubble, but AI is so hot. We wanted to cover that here, Erik, explain this please. Why TensorFlow is highlighted and walk us through this chart. >> Yeah, it's funny yet again, right? Another open source name, TensorFlow being up there. And I just want to explain, we do break out machine learning, AI is its own sector. A lot of this of course really is intertwined with the data side, but it is on its own area. And one of the things I think that's most important here to break out is Databricks. We started to cover Databricks in machine learning, AI. That company has grown into much, much more than that. So I do want to state to you Dave, and also the audience out there that moving forward, we're going to be moving Databricks out of only the MA/AI into other sectors. So we can kind of value them against their peers a little bit better. But in this instance, you could just see how dominant they are in this area. And one thing that's not here, but I do want to point out is that we have the ability to break this down by industry vertical, organization size. And when I break this down into Fortune 500 and Fortune 1000, both Databricks and Tensorflow are even better than you see here. So it's quite interesting to see that the names that are succeeding are also succeeding with the largest organizations in the world. And as we know, large organizations means large budgets. So this is one area that I just thought was really interesting to point out that as we break it down, the data by vertical, these two names still are the outstanding players. >> I just also want to call it H2O.ai. They're getting a lot of buzz in the marketplace and I'm seeing them a lot more. Anaconda, another one. Dataiku consistently popping up. DataRobot is also interesting because all the kerfuffle that's going on there. The Cube guy, Cube alum, Chris Lynch stepped down as executive chairman. All this stuff came out about how the executives were taking money off the table and didn't allow the employees to participate in that money raising deal. So that's pissed a lot of people off. And so they're now going through some kind of uncomfortable things, which is unfortunate because DataRobot, I noticed, we haven't covered them that much in "Breaking Analysis", but I've noticed them oftentimes, Erik, in the surveys doing really well. So you would think that company has a lot of potential. But yeah, it's an important space that we're going to continue to watch. Let me ask you Erik, can you contextualize this from a time series standpoint? I mean, how is this changed over time? >> Yeah, again, not show here, but in the data. I'm sorry, go ahead. >> No, I'm sorry. What I meant, I should have interjected. In other words, you would think in a downturn that these emerging companies would be less interesting to buyers 'cause they're more risky. What have you seen? >> Yeah, and it was interesting before we went live, you and I were having this conversation about "Is the downturn stopping people from evaluating these private companies or not," right. In a larger sense, that's really what we're doing here. How are these private companies doing when it comes down to the actual practitioners? The people with the budget, the people with the decision making. And so what I did is, we have historical data as you know, I went back to the Emerging Technology Survey we did in November of 21, right at the crest right before the market started to really fall and everything kind of started to fall apart there. And what I noticed is on the security side, very much so, we're seeing less evaluations than we were in November 21. So I broke it down. On cloud security, net sentiment went from 21% to 16% from November '21. That's a pretty big drop. And again, that sentiment is our one aggregate metric for overall positivity, meaning utilization and actual evaluation of the name. Again in database, we saw it drop a little bit from 19% to 13%. However, in analytics we actually saw it stay steady. So it's pretty interesting that yes, cloud security and security in general is always going to be important. But right now we're seeing less overall net sentiment in that space. But within analytics, we're seeing steady with growing mindshare. And also to your point earlier in machine learning, AI, we're seeing steady net sentiment and mindshare has grown a whopping 25% to 30%. So despite the downturn, we're seeing more awareness of these companies in analytics and machine learning and a steady, actual utilization of them. I can't say the same in security and database. They're actually shrinking a little bit since the end of last year. >> You know it's interesting, we were on a round table, Erik does these round tables with CISOs and CIOs, and I remember one time you had asked the question, "How do you think about some of these emerging tech companies?" And one of the executives said, "I always include somebody in the bottom left of the Gartner Magic Quadrant in my RFPs. I think he said, "That's how I found," I don't know, it was Zscaler or something like that years before anybody ever knew of them "Because they're going to help me get to the next level." So it's interesting to see Erik in these sectors, how they're holding up in many cases. >> Yeah. It's a very important part for the actual IT practitioners themselves. There's always contracts coming up and you always have to worry about your next round of negotiations. And that's one of the roles these guys play. You have to do a POC when contracts come up, but it's also their job to stay on top of the new technology. You can't fall behind. Like everyone's a software company. Now everyone's a tech company, no matter what you're doing. So these guys have to stay in on top of it. And that's what this ETS can do. You can go in here and look and say, "All right, I'm going to evaluate their technology," and it could be twofold. It might be that you're ready to upgrade your technology and they're actually pushing the envelope or it simply might be I'm using them as a negotiation ploy. So when I go back to the big guy who I have full intentions of writing that contract to, at least I have some negotiation leverage. >> Erik, we got to leave it there. I could spend all day. I'm going to definitely dig into this on my own time. Thank you for introducing this, really appreciate your time today. >> I always enjoy it, Dave and I hope everyone out there has a great holiday weekend. Enjoy the rest of the summer. And, you know, I love to talk data. So anytime you want, just point the camera on me and I'll start talking data. >> You got it. I also want to thank the team at ETR, not only Erik, but Darren Bramen who's a data scientist, really helped prepare this data, the entire team over at ETR. I cannot tell you how much additional data there is. We are just scratching the surface in this "Breaking Analysis". So great job guys. I want to thank Alex Myerson. Who's on production and he manages the podcast. Ken Shifman as well, who's just coming back from VMware Explore. Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on social media and in our newsletters. And Rob Hof is our editor in chief over at SiliconANGLE. Does some great editing for us. Thank you. All of you guys. Remember these episodes, they're all available as podcast, wherever you listen. All you got to do is just search "Breaking Analysis" podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. Or you can email me to get in touch david.vellante@siliconangle.com. You can DM me at dvellante or comment on my LinkedIn posts and please do check out etr.ai for the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for Erik Bradley and The Cube Insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching. Be well. And we'll see you next time on "Breaking Analysis". (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) >> Welcome back to Las Vegas. Lisa Martin here, with Dave Vellante. We are covering day two of our coverage of Snowflake Summit '22. of Snowflake Summit '22. It's been a cannon of content coming your way, the last couple of days. We love talking with customers, with partners. We've got a partner on the program from ThoughtSpot. We're going to be diving into digital transformation with self-service analytics for the modern data stack. Please welcome Kuntal Vahalia, SVP of Channel and Alliances at ThoughtSpot. Welcome Kuntal. >> Thank you, Lisa. Dave, thank you for having us. >> Dave: Good to see you. >> Talk to the audience a little bit about ThoughtSpot. Give 'em an overview, and then de dive into the partnership with Snowflake. >> Yeah, absolutely. So ThoughtSpot is the, what we call live analytics, for the modern data stack, right? We want to be the experience layer for all the data that's getting modernized and moving into the cloud, right? And then specifically to Snowflake, we, of course, we have seen over the last two days here Snowflake has made tremendous innovations where they've accelerated a customer's journey into the cloud, especially the data cloud. Our job is to go really unlock that data, right? Generate that value, make it consumable at the at the experience level layer, right? So what we want to do here with Snowflake is here with Snowflake is make analytics self service for the end users, for the end users, on top of the Snowflake data cloud, right? And we want to empower everyone to create, consume, and operationalize data driven insights. We think if the end users can gender their own insights through live analytics, we could do have a completely different operating model for a business, right? And I think we can do that in accelerated fashion on, sitting on top of Snowflake data cloud. >> End users? Lines of business? >> It's line of business users, so we directly go to end users. That's one of our differentiation, not just IT, not just IT, but as end users as well, so we could be all things to all enterprise, to all enterprise, across our line of businesses. >> So what kind of impact are you seeing with your customers? You know, ones that are leaning into ThoughtSpot and Snowflake and sort of rethinking their data approach? >> Yeah. I mean the impact could be immense, right? As I said, this is not just about analytics. If we are successful in empowering end users, it completely changes the velocity of the business. We are now driving innovation at every node, at every layer in the organization. Not just IT, not just smaller segments in the organization, we are doing this anywhere, in any pocket, right? So I think the impact could be massive, if we do this right. And I think we are starting to see that, we have a lot of customers here actually, joint customers, Capital One, Canadian Tires, Walmart, they're all joint customers, where we have seen starting to see some of those impacts, where we have data getting modernized, the stack being ready, and then we're coming in at the top as the experience layer, which is driving that new digital operating model. >> Describe the maturity curve when you go, you mentioned some of the the the leaders, I mean, take a Walmart. I mean, they kind of invented the whole, you know, beer and diapers thing, right? So obviously a company with tremendous resources and and and advanced technology. Compare. Compare. So some of those leaders with sort of the other end of the spectrum, when you come into a company and you see, okay, here's, okay, here's, what does that spectrum look like? And and what's the upside for the, I don't want to call 'em laggards, but I'll call 'em laggards. >> Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, this, this, I think we are still early on. I mean, as this is not just a exercise in getting the data ready, this is also an exercise in in change management, because now, as I said, we are going beyond IT. We are going to line of business users as well, so a lot of change management required, and we have seen companies that are actually putting this in front of the frontline workers, empowering frontline workers to consume analytics and to drive self-service via search and AI, and AI, they're on a different curve. They are actually being competitive in the market. That's an advantage for them, right? >> Right. >> So we are seeing a lot of companies, like Walmart, already ahead in that journey with us still early days, right? We got to go, land in one line of business, go from there to other line of business till we go enterprise wide. >> Can you, it sounds like you might be a facilitator of connecting heads of business with the IT and the tech folks at ThoughtSpot. >> Absolutely. I mean, that is the Holy Grail. How do we get IT And line of business work frictionless, where everyone has their roles defined, right? And still get to the outcome where innovation is happening now with IT on the data cloud and then go beyond IT into the broader business? So yeah, I think that's definitely one of the our goals and outcomes of what we do. >> So what are the roles there? So the business obviously wants to do more business. Okay. They put analytics in their hands and it helps them get there. What role does IT play? Making sure that those services are available? Are they a service provider? Is it more of a governance and compliance thing? >> Yeah, I mean, step number one is still to get the data ready and I think IT still owns the key to that kingdom, especially around governance, security, so I think IT still has to get the data stack ready, right? Step number two is for IT to really build a framework for how to consume analytics for how to consume analytics for the end users. Step number three then is, is the rule is, Hey, we don't need IT to now deliver dashboards or KPIs to the business every day that that's how traditional dashboards work. In our world, once IT does step number one and step number two the business can take over and they can now go operate the business on their own using live analytics. >> Creating self-serve >> Absolutely. Self-service analytics using service in AI. >> What have you seen, in terms of from the IT folks perspective, we talked about change management a minute ago, It's very challenging to do, but these days every company has to be a data company. >> Kuntal: Yeah. >> They don't have a choice. >> Yeah. >> What are you seeing from a change management perspective within the IT function across your customers and then be willing to let go in some cases? and then be willing to let go in some cases? >> Actually, >> Actually, what we have seen is, you know, think about the the technical debt that IT is owning over the last few years, it's just increasing, right? IT is looking for ways to A. cut cost, to A. cut cost, B. deliver more B. deliver more with probably the same amount of resources they have, so in some ways they welcome this new operating model, as long as they can keep the governance, they can keep the security, they can keep the framework around how business is run, as long as IT has a say in that, they're more than welcome to invite business, to really drive innovation at the edges through self-service analytics, so what we found is IT is a is a welcome partner, in this journey, especially when they have to get the data ready and modernize the data set for us. >> You guys announcing a partnership with Matillion this week, what? Tell us what that's all about. The one earlier. >> We did. So we did announce a partnership, so I think, as I said, step number one is getting the data ready, and I think we have heard from Frank and the rest of this team this week, even Snowflake is taking a best of breed approach on the data stack, right? So we want the computer So we want the computer and the storage to be ready, but for that, the data pipeline has to be ready, which is where Matillion comes in with the low code, no code approach, so we think between Matillion, Snowflake, and ThoughtSpot, we could be the accelerated best of breed approach for customers to realize value and and be live on the, on the modern data stack. >> Is that your, is that your stack? >> As we said, we, we meet the customers where they are, but we think this is accelerated path. >> What are the advantages of, you know, what are you optimizing on in that stack? in that stack? >> First with Matillion, we have, what we concept, we have this concept of Spot Apps, so this is ThoughtSpot's way to really capture the IP and the templates for customers to move fast, right? That's where we bake in a lot of the industry IP, a lot of functional IP around end sources, and and endpoints, so we have some of those spot apps built with Matillion, built with Matillion, so now customers able to ingest data into the so now customers able to ingest data into the into the cloud faster using Matillion, right? So that's, that's something we worked with, same thing with Snowflake, you know, we are now starting to go verticalize with Snowflake, So we are starting to build a lot of IP around financial services, healthcare and whatnot, which is where I think we are, again, accelerating customer's path on the modern data stack, all the way to the experience layer. >> A as a partner of Snowflake's, what does all the narrative around the data cloud, we've been talking about that for a while, a lot of conversation around the data cloud the last couple of days, where do partners fit into that overall narrative? >> Yeah, I think multiple places, right? First thing, First thing, First thing, every layer of the data cloud still needs innovation, still needs partners, and every partner adds a different set of value. Just like we add value at the, at the top layer, which is the experience layer, But I think, you know, we have channel partners we have a lot of SIs and GSIs here, and GSIs here, especially once we take a best of breed approach, to delivering customer outcomes, SIs are the neutral ground. They're the ones who are going to have the Matillion expertise, and the Snowflake expertise, and thoughts for expertise, all baked into one DNA practice, data analytics practice, so I think at every layer, partners have a role to play and every layer partners have role, have value to add. have value to add. >> What's the engagement process like for customers when you you're talking about the the the the three way partnership Matillion, Matillion, ThoughtSpot, and stuff like, how do customers get involved, what's your go to market look like? >> Right. I mean, obviously, I mean, we, we, we are humble, we know where we are. I mean, we, a little bit smaller than, than Snowflake Snowflake has a head start, so they've been about five years ahead of us, so we are largely targeting customers that are that are Snowflake ready, where there is some semblance of data cloud, where data seems to be organized and ready to go, right? so once we think the customer is at that point in the journey, we have very strong partnership across both, across entire organization, at a product level, at a field engagement level, and our field teams really understand the value the joint value between the two organizations, so we, we start to see Snowflake feel, and ThoughtSpot feel, starting to work together on key accounts, once we think the data is ready, and wherever we need to accelerate the data, that's where we bring in Matillion as well, to ingest more data into, into the data cloud, but that's largely been the engagement model between the three companies. >> How do you see the announcements that they made around applications affecting what you guys are doing and your ecosystem? >> Yeah, I mean, I think that's a validation. I think to us, I think to us, we always said step number one is to modernize the data, move into the cloud. That's step number one, but we still have to unlock the data. Like the data still needs to be consumed, And we always said, Hey, we are that app that could drive the consumption of data, but now with some of the announcement we have seen, I think the validation is there saying, "Hey, yes." There, even Snowflake is ready to move in a more accelerated fashion into the application world where they want to drive consumption, not just with the analytics layer, but with lot of other applications that's out there. >> Yeah. >> What are some of the things that you've heard this week, in the last couple of days, that really validate that really validate the the partnership with Snowflake, from your perspective? >> Yeah. I mean, I think the first thing is, is this concept of modern data stack, which is best of breed. I think we have been thinking about that for a long time, for the last year or so. We have seen this come through at this event here, right? We see Matillion, Snowflake, and then the SIs around it, all coming together, so I think to us, that's the biggest validation that the modern data stack is the right approach, especially best of breed, to drive the right customer outcomes, so to me, that's big. Second is this concept of really accelerating applications on top of the data cloud. I think that's, again a validation of what we've been trying to do over the last few years, which is, the data has modernized, let's now drive consumption and adoption of that data, so I think those are the two big take areas. >> So, so the modern data stack, to get to the modern data stack, you got to do some work. >> Yep. >> But so the, the play is to hold out the carrot, which you just kind of just did, 'cause once you get there, then you can really start to hit the steep part of the S-curve, right? >> That's right. >> What, what are the, what would you say are are the sort of prerequisites that customers need to think about to really jump on that modern data stack curve? >> Um, I think they they got to first have a vision around the outcomes, what outcomes we are driving. I think it's one thing to say, "Hey, we just going to move the data over from from legacy into the cloud." I mean, that's just, that's just migration, that doesn't drive the outcomes. To us, what makes sense is, let's start with the right outcomes around supply chain, around retail, around e-commerce, let's name it, right? I think, it starts there. From there on, let's figure out, what do we need? What's what, what technologies do we need in the stack to enable those outcomes, right? It could be ThoughtSpot at the top, it could be something else at the top, and same thing, it's Matillion, and Snowflake, right? But it really starts with what outcomes we going to drive in what industry and what KPIs are important for our customers. >> What's next for ThoughtSpot and Snowflake? I was just looking at the notes here. Over 250 plus joint customers, you mentioned some Disney+, Capital One, I've seen them around here. What's next for these two powerhouses? >> Well, I think we're just getting started, to be honest. I mean those 250 customers, first, we got to go drive success for them. I mean, we are a 10 year old company with a two year runway because we transferred our business transformed our business to cloud, less than two years ago, so this 250 joint logos are actually all happened in the last two years and that's driven us to be in the, probably in the top five adoption drivers for Snowflake, all in the last two years, So goal number one is to really, let's go drive customer success for these joint logos. Second, let's go expand them, right? Consumption is the key criteria, both for Snowflake, as well as ThoughtSpot. We are very well aligned, our pricing models aligned there, our incentives aligned there, We really want customers to go adopt and consume the stack, and then of course, really, we want to go verticalize ourselves, start speaking the language of the customers, and really just get bigger. I mean, we still got to build a machine around this. >> Lisa: Yep. >> Lisa, this is, this is all still early days for us. >> Early innings. A lot of, but a ton of potential. The, the field is ripe. >> The field is right open. I think in, and we will, I think we are, bottom of the third or bottom of the second, I think you still have a long game to play, right? >> Well good. Most people always use bottom the first. I'm glad to hear it's really bottom of the second or third. That's pretty good. >> Yeah, well, 250 logos are there. >> Lisa: Yeah. >> And it's further along 'cause of the, the I don't want to say it like this, but I'm going to say it anyway. The failure of the big data movement, it pushed us along quite, quite a ways, in terms of thinking, putting data at the core, the technology kind of failed us, you know and the, and the, you know and the, and the, the centralization of the architectures, the centralization of the architectures, it failed us, But then the cloud came along. >> That's right. >> We learned a lot and now, you know, technology's advanced I think people's thinking is advanced and they realize increasingly the importance of data >> And ecosystem is coming. I mean, I think you look around here, this is a secret sauce for the future. >> Dave: Yep. This is what's going to really get us moving faster over the next few innings because now the rest of the ecosystem is coming along. >> Yep. The momentum is here. That flywheel is moving. >> That's right. >> Definitely. Kuntal, thank you very much for joining David and me on the program talking about >> Kuntal: Lisa, Dave, thank you so much for your time. >> what ThoughtSpot's all about, what you're up to, a lot of momentum. We wish you the best of luck as you progress into those later innings. >> Thank you >> For Dave Vellante. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCube. We are live in Las Vegas at Snowflake Summit '22. Dave and I are going to be right back with our next guest, so stick around. (mellow techno music) (mellow techno music) (mellow techno music) (mellow techno music)

(techno music) >> Announcer: Live, from the Moscone Center it's theCUBE. Covering AWS Summit, San Francisco 2018. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive coverage here in San Francisco, I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. This is Amazon Web Services, AWS Summit 2018. We got two great guests, Dave McCann the vice president general manager of AWS Marketplace and Service Catalog and Matthew Scullion is a CEO of Matillion, partner of Marketplace. Guys thanks for coming on good to see you again >> Thank you. >> Thanks for havin' us. >> Alright, so Dave, Marketplace is doing phenomenal, well, we talked with Lew Cirne from New Relic at Reinvent, and was talking about how successful they've been on the Marketplace, so clearly it's working, 170 thousand active customers on stage, we saw the keynote today, What's going on with the Marketplace? Take a minute to explain how the Marketplace is set up now and how it's evolved to this point. >> Thank you, so, great to be back. Can't believe it's four months since Reinvent. So Marketplace is a digital library, of software. You know the cloud is helping our customers innovate faster but you need to be able to innovate with the software not just with the compute and the storage, and so our purpose is to stand up a digital library of software for our customers to subscribe and launch, and we're continuing to grow on multiple dimensions. We've deployed out to all the new standard regions, so we're now up in Korea, we're clearly in LHR so in all the standard regions we've fit Marketplace. And then we continue to expand the library of software, so more and more companies, like a Matillion, publish into the library. We're over 1,300 software companies now, and we're over 4,000 different software titles and you know, our customers show up, they're typically a developer or a manager, with a project with a budget, and they're looking for the best tool that they can keep the project going on schedule. >> And just to make clarification nuances, I know it's commercial and is there a public sector version or is it all one? >> That's a really good question. We actually launched Marketplace last August in our GovCloud Region, so we do actually operate a GovCloud Region for our US government customers and we actually offer a separate Marketplace for the US intelligence agencies. So that's the library of what were doing and we continue tho grow and as Werner said this morning, bunch of new stats. >> The business, the business model obviously people see, um, two things happening. I want to get your reaction to, one is Werner Vogels laid out how services are going to be laid out all over the place and it's not, you know, monolithic as he says. They're all a bunch of services. Scale is a huge factor in enabling that, and also the business model changes are going on, we're seeing people be successful. How are your customers and partners using Marketplace today, how does it work, I mean, do they just call up and say, "Hey! Dave I want to get in the Marketplace." I mean what, I mean, obviously downloading services, enabling services makes sense. How is it working? Like what do they do? Like what's the model? >> So, let's start from the customer and walk backwards. You know Amazon talks about working backwards from the customer. So typically in a company will be a set of developers who are building on us and they'll have a set of architects very often they've a few cloud architects and across the set of software, networking, security, database, dealer analytics, BI, DevOps, all the way to business apps. There'll be a set of architects saying, "What's the best software as we move to the cloud? "Do we bring what we had, or do we buy new?" So the architects are recommending to the developers, "Hey, for your project, here's a good tool." So in the buyer, architects are recommending, and then the developer gets told you can use these vendors. On the seller side of things, software companies like Matillion have to decide "How do we reach the AWS customer?" and then they have to package up their software, put it in our library, and make a bunch of decisions that he can talk about, and then they make it available. >> Yeah Dave it's been interesting to watch kind of the maturation in the Marketplace. It's been large for a number of years but how your partners have changed how they package software, last year there was a discussion that you know, it changed how billing is done, so that Amazon can help make it just seamless for customers, whether they buy service from, you know, AWS or beyond. You know, give us, you used to talk about the customer and the partner, walk us through a little bit of that maturation and how that's that's gone. >> So, we're a six year old service and so we you know we're agile, we keep releasing features. So last year in April, at San Francisco, with Splunk we launched something called SaaS Contracts, which was a new API for SaaS vendors and now we have over 300 SaaS companies in the last year that have developed to that API. So a software vendor can decide they want to deliver as a software package or as an AMI so it could be SaaS or AMI. And we also provision APIs. So we're constantly introducing flexibility on how that vendor can price and package and the more we innovate, the more software companies use our features. >> Yeah, I'm sure you get asked, you know, what's the concern, is there concern, from some of the SaaS players that, "Oh, I'm going to go in there, "I'm going to price and package the way Amazon does, "what's to stop them from just kind of "duplicating what I'm doing and becoming a competitor?" >> You know, that question comes up a lot, and you know look, the software industry is $550 billion. It's growing at 6% a year which is $30 billion and AWS all late last year did about $18 billion. So the software industry is growing by an AWS a year, and the reality is there's so much innovation going on that whatever innovation we're doing, you know, there's lots of room for other software vendors to innovate on top of our stack, 'cause we live in an expanding universe. >> Stu and I always joke, it's like so funny, we look at the, we watch all the cloud, of your competition, you Google Microsoft and Oracle, IBM, whatever, and they all quote numbers. If you factored in the ecosystem, in your number, the cloud revenues would be, I mean trillions. So you know, you guys I know you don't include that, in the numbers and like Microsoft does put Office in there, so it's kind of apples and oranges and so you know, Matthew I want to ask you, 'cause you're a partner. You're doing business on that, so, this is the formula we've been seeing that's been working where, the ecosystem growth, rising tide floats all boats, clearly that's Amazon's strategy. And they're opening up their platform to partners. So talk about what you guys are doing. First, take a minute to explain your company and then talk about your relationship to the Marketplace, and how that's working, and the relationship, how you make money, and the business model behind it. >> Yeah sure, and thanks for the question and for having me. So first of all Matillion, we're a software company, an ISV we make cloud-native data integration technology, purpose-built for this new generation of cloud data warehouses. For us that's Amazon Redshift, it's also Snowflake, and we sell both of those products on the AWS Marketplace, So customers are using us any time when they want to compete with data, so drive product development, or service their customers better, or in fact, become more efficient in the way they run their IT infrastructure. Perhaps migrating an on-premise warehouse into the cloud. So we developed that product through 2014-15, and we were looking for a route to market. Being honest, originally we were going to set it up as a SaaS business, and I saw a pitch from one of Dave's reports, a guy called Barry Russell, talking about AWS marketplace. We're like, okay here's a platform that's going to allow me to deliver my software anywhere in the world to any AWS customer pretty much instantly. More to the point, it's going to deliver my customer a really excellent experience around doing that, from a performance point of view, my software's going to go to go into their VPC sat right next to their data sources, in their Redshift cluster. From a security point of view, that question, very important in data integration, just taken totally off the table, so inside that firewall inside their VPC and of course super convenient and simple to buy. You just access AWS Marketplace, pay with Genuine Cloud Economics by the hour and stand it up pay a few AWS bills. So a really compelling way to deliver the software. >> Was there a technical integration required on your end? I mean like, there's some clients that are born in the cloud Amazon, some are, have built their own stuff. Do you have to, I mean, where are you guys fit into that? One, are you using Amazon? If not, was there any integration piece that you had to do? And if so, what was the level of work required to integrate? >> Yeah, and to be honest, I think this is, you know, the key question on how to be successful selling in this this kind of landscape of public cloud vendor marketplaces and, and the public cloud. So, I mean we're a born on AWS and in fact are born on AWS Marketplace products, and that intersection of product engineering with the route to market, and it's not just the software, it's also the things you surround it with, like great quality content, online support portals, videos, a really great launch experience, that means you're going to be clicked to running our software, commercial-grade ETL tool in under five minutes, free for the first 14 days and then by the hour billing, you know, there's a lot of different angles that go into that and you've absolutely got to be thinking about it. Other people are being successful just kind of sticking their products on the Marketplace and using it just as a billing mechanism but I think for us one of the reasons we've been able to drive great customer resonance and growth, is having that intersection of engineering, content and the Marketplace, together. >> Matthew I wanted have you talk to me a little bit about Matillion, 'cause when I think about kind of customer acquisition, you know Data Warehousing Market's been around for a long time. Redshift's been doing phenomenal, I mean for a while it was the largest, you know, fastest growing product in the AWS you know, portfolio. Being only through the Marketplace, does that, you know, how does that help you get customers, how do they learn about you? Do you ever worry about, like, oh well they just think I'm an Amazon service? Maybe that's a good thing. You know, I'm just curious about kind of that whole go-to-market and relationship with the customers being, you know, super tight, with AWS, you said Snowflake's in there too, so yeah, I'm just curious about that dynamic. >> Yeah, I mean the, the AWS only service thing that historically was a pro and a con. So back in the day we were just Redshift. We're now a couple of other data warehouses as well, you mentioned Snowflake, that's quite right. So that's allowed us to kind of move up the value chain with our customers and give them some choice, which they wanted. Yeah, I think in terms of the go-to-market economics, I mean, we all say this, sometimes its glib, here I think it's authentic. You want to start with what's best for the customer, right. And so we're delivering with genuine cloud economics. Our product starts at $1.37 an hour and yet it'll scale to the world's largest enterprises, and if they don't like it they can turn it off. Typical SaaS products, you're actually signing up for 12 months. So you're not that focused on keeping your customer happy for 11 of those months. Me, I need to keep that customer happy 100% of the time, because he can turn it off any time he likes. >> Yeah, yeah, I always wonder sometimes as an analyst, you know, should it be called a SaaS product if I'm signed into a year or multi-year contract. >> Yeah, so really interesting dynamic of our business is our entire revenue drops by 15% Saturday, Sunday, and it's cause people are turning off dev instances. They come back on Monday morning. Now, as a CEO I could worry about that and say, "Where's my 15% gone Saturday, Sunday?" Actually I'm delighted, 'cause it means my customers are only paying for value they're getting out of the product. >> And then, so about the business model, I wanted to drive into that. I want you to explain and give some color commentary to what your choice was if you didn't have the Marketplace. Hire a sales force? That's going to cost you some money. First you got to find people. >> Yeah. >> Push it to about a thousand customers, run ad campaign. Did you guys do the analysis and say, "Whoa, this is like A,B"? >> Well, so when we launched this product, we were a 12 man company, so I'm not going to say that we rolled in a management consultancy to work that stuff out for us, being honest. But we took a view. I think there have been two big things. First of all, in those very early days when you're trying to find some product market fit, you're trying to find some customers. That global reach instantly delivered by the Marketplace is amazing. So I'm from Manchester UK, apologies for the accent, that's where a good part of our business is still based, although we have offices now in New York and Denver and Seattle as well. If you drill a vertical hole downwards from Manchester, UK, you pop out in Melbourne, Australia that's the first customer we picked up on AWS Marketplace, still a customer today. So in those early guerrilla days, >> No travel, instant global footprint. >> And they were spending money with us before we spoke to them for the first time as well. Now today, we do have a sales force, of course, but it's not a sales force that's closing big deals. They're being value-added, and additive, they are escorting customers through the buying journey, and we've got just as many pre-sales guys as we have sales guys just helping the customer 'cause that's what we want to do. They're going to use the products and consume it 'cause it's easy to do and to turn it off. >> So you focus the high-value activities with the high value employees on the right customer mix, while the rest is just kind of working through the cloud economics. >> Yeah, that's it. Hey, we have to do marketing, of course. We're here doing an event, it's going great. We were lucky enough to be mentioned in the, in the keynote this morning, so our booth's been swamped, >> And now you're on theCUBE, you're a CUBE alumni. >> Exactly. >> The world's going to see, going public next. >> One of the things we do on the marketing front, is when you come into Marketplace and you talk about how we onboard a seller, we have a whole team who we call category managers and so there's an expert over each subject area such as data analytics or networking or security and we not only give them the engineering advice on how to package, on how to onboard and by the way we didn't curate manage so we publish his AMI and he tells us what regions he wants it to go to. And so he may say, clone to Korea, but I don't want it over here, so the seller could decide geography but then we lay on a business go-to-market plan and we actually develop a joint go-to-market. And so we'll do co-marketing with our sellers, and they can choose whether it's by country, by territory, is it large enterprise, is it small business. So there's a set of business advice that we lend. >> So you apply some best practices and some market intelligence on the portfolio side. >> Exactly. >> And the sector. And then we have all the data right? We provide these guys with a real time API they're pulling data off the API every day and what's happening, and so were monitoring that data and everything's measured so this is a digital channel. And then of course the ultimate thing we do when I ran my last SaaS company, we provide the billing platform. And so the buyer comes in on the AWS account, uses the AWS account, so now we bill on behalf of, we do the collection from the buyer, and then we disperse the funds back to the vendor. >> You're making the market for 'em, and they're still doing their blocking and tackling. >> The customer gets a really good experience on their bill and then the customer spend actually becomes visible in Cost Explorer, so we've tagged everything, so we also tagged it so that it's "this is Matillion", and so the customer knows "I'm spending X much on, "X amount of dollars on Matillion on that stack." >> So you're a sales channel and you're adding more value, Matthew, if someone asks you, just say I say, "Hey Matthew, look I got a great product and it's kickin' ass, I want to get into Marketplace" what do I do, what advice would you give me, what would you say? "Oh, I'm skeptical of Amazon's Marketplace" or, "Hey, I really want it". How would you talk to those two tubes of audiences? >> Yeah, so I think the first thing, and we alluded to it earlier, is I think really hard about that 360 experience of packaging the product and how it's launched, that's engineering in the software itself. You need to think about how the customer's going to interact with it, but you also need to clothe that software with great quality content and support, and finally the right type of go-to-market motion around that. And one of the big benefits for us in terms of the AWS Marketplace has been the efficiency of the sales model. So we've got really efficient go-to-market economics and also the types of customers that we sell to and we've, for a company of our stage, you know, we're a post series B, high-growth software company, but for a company of that stage, we are, have a disproportionately high number of global 8,000 global 2,000 customers, that are because Marketplace takes away the barrier of selling into those guys. So as advice on how to be successful, I'd focus on that packaging side and advice as to why to do it, you've got instant worldwide reach into the traditional stomping ground of the the startup other tech vendors but also into the world's biggest software users. >> A virtuous circle, faster to the customers, at a lower cost structure, you still make money, everyone's happy, sounds like a, the Amazon business model. >> It is. >> Great customer experience, great selection, and you know, adoption by the customer, and then continued innovation. Another thing that we do is we have a portal where these guys are publishing new versions, so it's not a one-and-done model. So as these guys update their models, their engineers just publish into seller portal and then that new version comes in, and then we publish that new version out to the customer. So there's a refreshing of the AMI so the latest version is up there. >> And Werner's keynote today really highlighted it's not just about developers anymore, it's about the business teams coming together, pushing stuff real time to the Marketplace is now a business ops model and it's really kind of coming together with entrepreneurial traction and the footprint's a gateway to the world. You have a world footprint. >> Yes, it's 21st century software distribution and really the buyer gets the ultimate choice and you know the buyer can go for an annual contract or for by the hour, so economically, lots of choice. >> Alright, so I'll put you on the spot to end this segment. I'll be a naysayer. Dave you got competition out there, what, what's in it for me? How do you compare vis-a-vis the competition? >> Dave: You're a software vendor? >> Yeah. >> As, you're playin' the persona? >> Yeah, I'm a software guy, I'm looking at marketplaces, you know, why you guys? >> You know, you have to go where the customer is, ultimately you have to decide who your customer is. You know, Werner talked this morning about the tens of thousands of companies that are up on AWS, and so, if I've got 170 thousand buyers showing up on my marketplace, and they're intentional on their budget, and you're a software vendor you get reach, and given what Gartner says on where we are, on fulfilling share in cloud, is where the customer is. >> And if you're a service too, software service APIs, it's even better goodness there. >> Yeah we have thousands of consulting partners also use Marketplace as a library so if you're an SI, and we have tens of thousands of SIs, those SIs also view Marketplace as a good place to find software for the project. >> You've been in this business for a while. I mean, we've always talked about this on theCUBE, I want to ask you real quick, I mean more than ever now, ecosystems and communities are paramount, priority. Especially with this kind of dynamic 'cause that ecosystem is that fabric to enable, you know, go-to-markets that are seamless with economic scale, visibility into the numbers, what's your reaction when someone says that comment to you about community and an ecosystem? >> Well you know, an ecosystem is a collection of software companies that inter-operate. And the reality is that our customers are rewriting all the software. The world is rewriting its software portfolio. You know, a large customer I went to see recently has a thousand software applications. Now as they move them all to the cloud, they're either rewriting or they're modernizing, but as they rewrite them, they're going to use distributed services, they're going to use micro-services. And so they're refreshing their entire stack. >> Yeah, it's a re-platforming of the internet. >> Transformational. >> Dave McCann, who runs the Marketplace for AWS. Really kickin' butt out there. Congratulations on all your success, and I know there's a lot more to do, I wish we had more time, I'd love to do a follow-up with you and find out what's going on the Marketplace. and Matthew a partner, congratulations, hyper-growth, hittin' that trajectory. Congratulations, we'll come visit you in Manchester and then we'll drill a hole, we'll go to Melbourne right down there. Appreciate, thanks for coming on theCUBE, thanks. >> Thank you. >> I'm John Furrier and Stu Miniman. More live coverage after this short break. We are in San Francisco, live for AWS Summit 2018. We'll be right back. (techno music)