>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering AWS re:Invent 2019. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services and Intel, along with it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, about 65,000 here in attendance, at AWS re:Invent 2019. You're watching theCUBE, and I am Stu Miniman, the host for this seg, and happy to welcome back to our program two of our CUBE alumni. Sitting to my right is Abby Fuller, who is the principal technologist for containers and Linux, with Amazon Web Services. Sitting to her right is Deepak Singh, Vice President of Compute Services, also with AWS. Thank you so much for joining us on the program. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you for having us. >> Stu: All right, so as I said, both of you have been on the program, and boy your team's been busy. I mean, one of the things I love, first of all, there is a roadmap for many of the things that are going on. So, we do understand what's happen in the future, but, Deepak, maybe just tell us a little bit about your group and kind of the main focus, and let's start there. >> Deepak: So, my group goes beyond containers. It includes things like Linux systems, our high performance computing organization. But for the purposes of re:Invent, let's stick to the containers org. The containers org owns all of AWS's containerized products. So that includes ECS, EKS, Fargate. We also own our service mesh offering, which is App Mesh. So the way I like to think about it is, it's the right way to build applications in the modern era group, and it's a team that stays quite busy, because this is such a hot space to be in. >> Stu: All right, so we're going to talk mostly about containers, but your shirt is talking about the Linux piece. Tell us what your shirt says. >> Deepak: Ahh, yes, this is the only right way to spell AMI. Unfortunately, my previous, when I was in New York, Corey was at the table interviewing me, and I wore this just for him. >> Stu: So, so, so, if it is AMI, then we're going to spend some time talking about EKS. >> Yes. (Abby chuckling) >> And Esses. >> Yes, which one? (Deepak laughing) We will figure that. For AWS is AWS, I think, is how we will do it. So, absolutely, we're not going to talk about ontological arguments in there. But, Abby, a whole lot of new services in the container space. I want to put a pin and put Fargate to aside for a second. >> Abby: Sure. >> Cause lots of things we want to dig into there. But a lot of other things have been announced, in like the last month or so. Maybe, give us a little bit of a view. >> Yeah, I think a couple big ones for us. So, Fargate and Spot, so run on spare Fargate Capacity for up to a 70% discount off of standard Fargate pricing. (mumbling) things like vulnerability image for scanning for images on ECR. We launched, over the last few days as re:Invent, a capacity providers for ECS, which let's you run, split your traffic between on-demand and spot instances in the same cluster. We also launched something called Cluster Auto Scaler. So, some finer-grained control over how your cluster scales in on ECS. >> Stu: All right, want to take a quick step back. So , Fargate, announced a couple of years ago. >> Deepak: Yep. >> Was only first supported on ECS. Definitely, I've talked to lots of customers, very excited about it. >> Deepak: Yep. >> Maybe talk to us a little bit about how Fargate fits in the whole container discussion. >> Deepak: Yeah. >> And we'll hit with the news. >> Yeah, and, actually, a good way to think about it is from a native US standpoint. If you're a customer running containers, the way we think about our services is: You need a place to store those containers, so that's ECR. You could use your own registry, you could pick a third party one, that's fine. But most of our customers just use ECR. Then you pick your containers carrier. That's either ECS or EKS depending on your preferences. And then you need to figure out where you want to run your containers. And, of course, when we launched ECS five years ago, at re:Invent, there was only one way to do it: On EC2 instances. And two years ago, we added in what in our mind is a cloud native natural way to run containers, which is Fargate. So Fargate serves as a runtime compute engine for containers, and you can pick your scheduler on top of it, and go make hay with your applications. So that's kind of how we think the hierarchy works, and it works pretty well for most customers. They'll start off often with EC2 and move to Fargate over time or mix and match, and it's kind of fascinating to see how many customers of ours have decided they want to be all-in on Fargate. Which is a great place to be for us. >> Stu: Okay, but the big news which actually got a good cheer in the key note yesterday, is Fargate for EKS. So what's the importance of this? >> Yeah I think (mumbling) I think it's saying we've been talking to customers about for a while and it's the ability to run your Kubernetes pods on Fargate Capacity. I think it's really speaking to folks love Kubernetes as a tool and as a community, but it can be a pretty significant lift operationally. And with Fargate they can use APIs that they want or the open source tooling that they want but they don't have to worry about provisioning and managing that EC2 capacity. >> Stu: All right, so Deepak I actually was having a conversation with a good AWS customer, yesterday, and he said he actually started out on Kubernetes before EKS existed, on AKS. And migrated over to AWS when EKS became available. And he said Fargate really interests me, but one of the main reasons he does Kubernetes is he wants to have some portability, has some concerns that, he knows what services he uses and how if he needed to move something there, what do you say to customer that says Fargate's interesting me, but I'm concerned I'm going to get locked in if I buy into this model. >> I would say that he shouldn't worry about it, because of two reasons: maybe more than two. One is: the unit in Fargate that you interact with and work on is the same unit that you interact and work on with Kubernetes in general. Which is the Kubernetes pod. It's the broadspec, it's just a pod, no difference. You can take that same pod and run it on Timbuktu cloud and it will still run. So that's part one. The other one is that he's using the same tools, he's using coup CDL. And in fact you can mix and match your Kubernetes casters. You can run 95% of the application on Fargate, and five percent of it on EC2. All they are doing is changing the part annotation, and if you decide you want to run none of it on Fargate, you just flip that and suddenly everything is running on EC2 capacity. So actually think there's that much to worry about, because it's just the same pod. It's still the same tooling, the operational model is a lot simpler. >> So Abby, we've talked to you at DockerCon, and KubeCon, simplicity is not the word that we hear when we talk about this whole container space. >> Abby: Sure. >> Traditionally. How are we doing overall? I mean, I'm watching the community here, and it's like, wait, Fargate sounds cool but where's my persistent volumes? You know, where are we in, you know give us a little bit of the road map as to where we are to make this, you know, simple and managing more of my environment. >> Yeah, I think the way that I like to look at it, right, is that we've spent, and it's not just us, but we spent a lot of time looking at things like patterns and abstractions that help make these work flows easier for developers. And I think one of the launches that's interesting in that vein is the ECS CLI version two, which we launched a few days ago. And that will help you deploy like a production ready containerized application. It'll help you with the CICD angle, it'll help you with the monitoring and the observability. So I think it's about abstracting away, and adding patterns on top to make some of these common operations and work flows really modular and repeatable, and extendable. And then it's about having the ability to customize where I need to. So being able to run on Fargate, but also to use work loads running on EC2 where I need to, and being able to mix and match, and to focus my energy where I really get any benefit from customizing, rather than having to do the whole thing from the ground up. >> Stu: You know, feedback I've gotten from my friends and the app dev community, is that hybrid is more and more becoming a standard deployment model. Obviously things like outposts and some of the other solutions from Amazon are extending the AWS model of doing things, but many of them also look at just Kubernetes, >> Deepak: Yep >> as a layer to do that. How should we be thinking of this from your solutions? >> Deepak: Yeah, so I thought without both, though, if you noticed in Andy's announcement yesterday, among the list of services available on day one were ECS and EKS. And actually app meshes well weren't on the list, but app meshes available on our post on day one as well. I think when we think about customers who want to run and stay in their own capacity and their own data centers, because EKS is built on (mumbling) Kubernetes with no modifications, the same application, as long as they're running on upstream Kubernetes, on their side, will just run on EKS. And there's a number of models that work there. A great model is the kind that SisCo is running, where they will manage it for you in both places. They become the first person you call, and on AWS it's just EKS. And on premise (mumbling) it's what SisCo has decided to build. Our pro-serf team will also help you by example. So I think there's a number of modes that work there but the key part, and it's the reason why we have stayed with (mumbling) stream Kubernetes, is we never want to make someone say, oh we can't use EKS because they're (mumbling). Somehow modified Kubernetes, and I think that is super important for us. >> Stu: Yeah, I mean Abby I know you're an active participant in the community, what do you say to people that look at Amazon, Deepak you talked a little bit about Fargate. You don't need to be concerned to the same images, so speak a little bit, maybe if you could, to Amazon's community participation, and what you're generally hearing from your customers. >> Abby: Yeah, so I think the root of it right is that we're all building with the same building blocks. I think something that Amazon has been really strong at is open sourcing primitive. So, Firecracker last year, I think was a good example. And we, I think we do really well with saying we built this to solve a problem for us, but we think you might want it too. And in terms of community support, we have been open sourcing more over the last year, we open source our road maps in November last year. We run developer previews off the GitHub road map, App Mesh has a public preview channel as well, so we've been trying to involve the community participation earlier and earlier in our product development life cycle, so that, especially with things like service mesh, where it's really pretty new, we can make sure that we have the voice of all our users and our customers, and there, as early as possible. But to get their hands on keyboards to try it out as soon as they can. >> Deepak: And actually a great example of that is, a word that Weave Works has done. Talking about people who can run Kubernetes on AWS and on premises, they have this project called "Weave Ignite" where they're basically running Kubernetes on Firecracker on premises. And then on AWS a customer just runs on EKS, as an example. And that, I think that part has been not everybody realizes that this is possible. But I think the fact that people are doing it is, excites us a lot. >> Stu: All right, I know you're both meeting with a lot of customers this week, maybe Deepak start with you. Any surprises or any misconceptions other than I know there a lot of people wearing teal shirts, with a certain pronunciation. But bring us inside some of the mind set of your customers here. >> Deepak: So actually, our conversation is very consistent. I think the community as a whole, our customer base has a whole, they all want to get to the same place. How can we move really quickly? How can we give our developers the ability to be more productive? Without putting our company at risk, having the right level of governance? Having the right controls, in place? And I think that's mainly consistent theme across the board. I guess the one thing that would be hard to remind people of a little bit, is a lot of people often think Fargate sits on top of ECS and EKS, it sits below that, and actually the fact that now there is an EKS Fargate, people understand that more quickly. Before that it was a little trickier. But other than that, I think our customers almost all. They come from different places, have very similar problems, they want developers to move quickly and develop deliver business value, and platform engineering teams that we speak to want to figure out how to get out of the way. And that's been great! >> It's interesting, Abby, I love your view point from the developer community Andy talked on stage about very much, to do true transformation, there needs to be the leadership driving things down. I'm curious what you're seeing, customers you're talked to, people you had, cause many of these tools we're talking about, you know, started in the developer world. >> Yeah, I mean there's been, like an increasing amount of curiosity around the cultural side of it. So how can I get my team to work like that? How can I get my team to ship more safely, more quickly, but getting operations out of the way? And I think you see more and more interest in that. So how can we build the tools that work the way our developers do? So we get all the thing that we want, so security and compliance and availability. The developers get what they want, which is easy work flows that match the way they want to work. So you see a lot of curiosity around that. So how do we get to the place where we can run everything on Fargate, and benefit from all the new serverless, severless style (mumbling). >> Stu: All right, real quick just give you the final word. Any websites, or events, or things that people should know when they want to learn more and get engaged? >> Yeah, I think I'd send people first and foremost to the GitHub public road maps. It is the easiest, fastest way to let us hear your voice, and what you want to see us build next. I think especially these next couple weeks coming out of re:Invent, as people start to get their hands on what we announced, think I'm really curious for them to take that back, and then be like, this is great, but here's what I want to see next. And I'd love to see that happen on the road maps. >> Yeah, about a month or so ago, maybe a couple months, we started a dedicated blog for containers on AWS site. One of the nice things about it is a lot of the contributors to that blog site are principal engineers, and engineers in our organization. For example, one of our, the principal engineers in my org are Malcolm Featonby, has a whole blog post on how should to think about scaling and best practices. I think I would encourage people who've now seen what we have, all the new services we're developing, and that's where you'll get the details on how you can use them, how we built them, and I encourage everybody to go to that blog site and check out what we're doing. >> Stu: All right, Deepak, Abby, congratulation to you and your team, great progress, and really appreciate (mumbling) are able to look at the road map, and definitely hope to catch up with you both soon. >> Abby: Thanks so much! >> Thank you so much. >> Stu: All right, I'm Stu Miniman, and back with much more, right in a second, thank for watching theCube. (Techno music)

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon + CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to Barcelona, Spain, this is theCUBE's live coverage of KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, 2019. 7,700 people in attendance, including myself, Stu Miniman, and co-host Corey Quinn, and returning to the program, Abby Fuller, who is the principal container czarina (Abby laughs) at Amazon Web Services. Yeah, Abby, I could say it without laughing, but, uh-- >> I can't. >> I don't think you can. Yeah, so, you know, let's just, czarina? You know, how does one, you know, become a czarina in their career, Abby? Let's start there. >> You ask Deepak really nicely, and he'll change your title for you. Longer answer, I think I'm doing a similar version of what I've always done for Amazon. Which is, how can I get what customers are asking for, and their feedback, and what they're struggling with, they're working on, or enjoying? Taking that back to our internal product development process, and then doing the same thing back the other way. So if we're building something, how can I help educate customers on how to work with it, and how to use it, how to build with it? So, same thing, just funnier title. >> All right, well, Abby, you know, it's a big, cloud show, so of course we know Amazon will be here. Lot's of developers here at the show, lot's of activity. Yesterday AWS held a, kind of, pre-show workshop. Maybe start there, tell us a little bit about that. >> Yeah, so we had AWS Container Day, maybe five or six hundred people, we did it at the hotel that is allegedly across the street, but is really, like, twenty five minute walk away. We did some workshops, we did a Birds of a Feather session at night. We had a little, mini, product preview announcement, so that was pretty fun. Something called, Container Insights, from CloudWatch team. I think my favorite thing about KubeCon is my favorite thing about the Kubernetes community, right, which is that, everyone is so happy to be here. They're all so enthusiastic. I've never had that many questions at a Birds of a Feather session before. We sent a ton of Amazon people here, to, kind of, talk about EKS, and Kubernetes, and community work. And the energy at the KubeCon is always so impressive. >> Give us a little sampling, you know, there's passion, is there questions? Are they trying to understand the various pieces? Are they excited about some of the new features? What's some of the energy you're capturing? >> Yeah, you know, I think it's both. I think on the EKS side, there's always the balance, right, in the Kubernetes community between, how can I have more power and flexibility? And then, how can you carry pager for more of this? So I think it's always an interesting balance, between the folks that are like, hmm, do you think you could manage that for me as well? And the folks that are like, I want to be able to pass in control plain flags. So, there's always an interesting balance. A lot of questions about version upgrades. I think that one is always, always seems to be top of mind, 'cause the Kubernetes community moves so fast. So, compared to a lot of other products, and how quickly they can release new versions, Kubernetes moves so fast. So, if you don't have a good upgrade strategy, you're in trouble. So-- >> Well, to that point, yesterday during the talk, there was a slide that went up, that listed, over the trailing 12 months, that there were 1,900 and change major service and feature releases. And that's very much a two edged sword, sitting in the audience, 'cause on the one hand, yay, the pace of innovation continues to increase, and services are getting better all the time. On the other, it's one of those, hmm, at least four of those would have been critically important, but I may not know about them. And to that end, something that the container group seems to have done, that almost no one else has, has been to put up a public roadmap of what's coming down the pike. Which has been tremendously helpful for customers, as far as being able to plan things out. How did that come to be? >> A lot of talking. I think, ultimately, right, all teams at AWS work the same way. Which is, backwards from what the customer is asking for. So, we have a lot of customer meetings. We have a lot of customer conversations, we talk to a lot of people. I do a lot with that on social media, or at conferences, or with blogs, or with live streaming. But ultimately, at the root of it, we all follow the same process. And I think the roadmap is really an extension of that. It's, how could we get, both what we're working on, to customers a little bit faster, but also, how can you have a voice that we hear so much more loudly? So, right? That you can be the smallest start up, or the largest enterprise, and you can open a GitHub issue just the same. And say, hey, you know, I'd really like to see you do that. And, I think the other piece of it, is that everyone has an AWS story. Where they build something custom, to work around something, or to add a feature, and then six weeks later we're like, we shipped it! And that's awesome, it's a good problem to have, and being able to delete code is one of everyone's favorite problems, I think. It's my favorite problem. >> It's one of life's true joys. >> It is one of life's true joys. (Corey laughs) But, what I think is even better than that, is a little bit of a heads up. And I think that that really builds trust between us and the community, is, how can we let you know we're working on, so you can plan around it? Or, if you don't see something, let us know that we're not thinking about the things that you value. >> Well, So Abby, you know, we've been at the Amazon shows for a number of years-- >> Yeah. >> And that customer feedback loop is something that we hear a lot. >> Yeah. >> Are there any dynamics about, just being in a big, open source community here, is, you know, just listening, and feedback loops as part of that? So, how does that impact, you know, how you work on things? >> Yeah, so, when we do events like this, I try to talk to as many people as possible. I try to listen in to the conversations, when I can. People come by the booth, they come by the meeting rooms. And I think it's about taking that back from all the different sources that were at the conference, the reviews online, the blog posts that people write after this, coverage like theCUBE, taking that all back, and then let's go through it. And then, how many of these things do we know about? Have a lot of people asked us for this? Is this something new? If it is new, how can we go find other people to talk to, to see who else is having that problem, that maybe we just didn't know to ask about before? So it's all part of that same working backwards process, but feedback comes from so many different places, and I think that, that ultimately is what makes it cool, right? It's because you get different feedback at a KubeCon than you will at a re:Invent, than you will on a Twitter, or that you will at a customer meeting. So, you need all of those sources to kind of figure out, what's more important? And, who is it important to? >> Yeah, one of the things that I find fascinating about the entire AWS Container story is, you almost get to decide your own level of involvement. You can run it all yourself, on top of EC2, you can wind up doing one of the manage serves with ECS, or EKS. And then there's Fargate, which I'm very bullish on for the future, if for no other reason that, if that takes over, suddenly we will never have to hear someone from Amazon mispronounce AMI, ever again. Which, I'll take my victories where I can find them. (Abby laughs) But, what are you seeing customers doing with Fargate? What's the paradigm look like, that's different than you might have expected at launch? >> Yeah, so, the way that I ultimately think about Fargate, right, is as a, it's a capacity provider for EC2. So, when you think about, kind of, the levels of control, right? You start at maybe the orchestrator level, so an ECS or an EKS. And if you're using ECS through Fargate, you're not interacting directly with EC2. So it's about, how can I control and define everything at just the container level, just at the task definition level, without having to think about the underlying EC2 instances? And they're still there, before someone tells me that serverless still has servers. But, you're not the one that's actively managing them. We're managing them on your behalf. All you care about is your workload itself. And then you can go a step deeper than that, and say, you know what, I want control over those EC2 instances. I want to manage them myself, maybe I want to do something in user data, or I want to be able to run DaemonSets myself, on the underlying infrastructure, and that's fine. So, I think it's ultimately about the level of control that you want. Fargate, to me, is interesting because it's like Lambda, in the sense that people have seemed very joyful about not having to manage EC2. Because ultimately, that's not what's providing them business value. That's not what let's them differentiate, and I think the way that Werner puts it is, you want everything that you write to be business logic. And I think with things like Lambda and Fargate, it gets you one step closer to that. That instead of having to manage infrastructure, to then manage your code, it's, just manage my code, please figure out the rest of it for me. >> This is borderline heresy in some circles, so don't, at me. (Abby laughs) But, what I'm wondering is, are things like containers, and functions as a service, aligned longer term, on the same axis? At some point, where it just becomes an implementation detail, and not a battle that needs to be fought. >> Yeah, the way that we think about it, right, is that, and I think the way that customers see it, is that serverless is ultimately a spectrum. There are many different flavors of it, depends on how you kind of want to work with it. But ultimately, I think, even longer term, maybe this is even more heretical, right? But, I want to not care. I don't want to have to care about the primitive that you're using. I don't want you to have to choose. And right now, I think you have to choose, regardless of the tool that you're using, you must choose very early. And to take advantage of a new tool, to go from containers, to Lambda, or whatever else you want to use, you have to re-write. Or you have to rebuild, or you have to re-wrap what you're doing. And I want to get to a point where you don't care. That I can use whatever combination of the below that I want to use, and that AWS will provide tools around that, that just says, you run this however you want. You mix and match whatever flavors you like, and we'll take care of it. >> Yeah, it's interesting, almost every time we've done one of these Kubernetes shows, we've had somebody from Amazon on, and even if we haven't had an AWS employee, almost every customer we have on is doing some, if not a lot of Amazon. There's some out there that look, and they're like, well, Amazon doesn't have the biggest booth, and Amazon has all of these different choices out there, so they must not be fully committed to, you know, capitol K, Kubernetes, and things like that. How can you help us understand what's going on? >> Yeah, so, I think Bob Wise, and his team spent a ton of time working on the community, and the whole team does, right? We're one of the biggest contributors to etcd, we're hosting Birds of a Feather. We've contributed back to a fair amount of community projects, and I think a lot of them are, in fact, around how to just make Kubernetes work better on AWS. And that might be something that we built because, EKS. Or, it might be something like Cluster Autoscaler, right? Which, ultimately, people would like to work better with Auto Scaling groups. So, I think we have the community involvement, but, I think it's about having a quiet community involvement, right? That, it's about chopping wood, and carrying water, and being present, and committing, and showing up, and having experts, and answering questions, and being present in things like SIG groups, than it is, necessarily, having the biggest booth. >> Yeah, I mean, from my perspective, at conferences, across the board, community involvement can never be measured by who spends enough money on the conference to have a booth large enough to play ice hockey in. That doesn't really seem to be as good of a barometer. Things like the roadmap, tend to be a spectacular, I guess, expression of how that engagement is starting to look. And I really am enthusiastic to see what's been done so far, and I'm looking forward to seeing more of it. >> Well thank you, I'm really proud of the roadmap. It's been so interesting to see customers take a, kind of, a new level of transparency, for us, product roadmap wise. And then, I love seeing people go through, and start adding more. So, I feel like the roadmap started to feel successful to me when customers started opening a ton of issues, and saying, hey, have you thought about this? Our new thing is, we've been posting requests for comments, or design docs on there, and saying, you know, we're thinking about building this, and here's what we were thinking about building. Did the way that we built this solve the problem that you're trying to solve? 'Cause ultimately, you can build the coolest thing in the world, and if it doesn't solve problems for your customers, what's the point? >> Yeah, and Abby, I'll reiterate that the roadmap was something that, you know, the ecosystem, the community, was very excited about. What other things did you want to share before we wrap? You know, things at the show, or related to the container space that, you know, you're hearing your customers talking, and asking a lot about. >> Yeah, so I've heard great things about all the sessions. I think that I'm a little biased, 'cause I was on the program committee. So, obviously the selection was universally excellent. Yeah, I think, what I like the most, I think, about events like this, is that everyone seems to have a different way of solving things. They're all asking for something new. They're all talking about a different project. They're all in different SIG groups. They're all making different feature requests. They're all using different tools. I think that that's really powerful, and I think was what's made Kubernetes so amazing, is that, the whole community feels like this. This is a huge turn out for a conference, and everyone feels very, like, actively engaged. And I like seeing us, kind of, push the boundaries, right? Between, how much can I pass off to something like EKS? And then, how much can I keep customizing, but on only the things that matter to me? >> I guess, as you're talking about roadmap, and plans for the future, if I were to build an environment on AWS, going back, let's say a decade-ish, I would have built something in a single AWS account, using EC2 classic, and maybe simple DB, as a data store. Which, generally, is in no way aligned with best practices today, and migrating off of those types of architectures, for some customers, has been painful. Is there any way to, I guess, loosen the abstraction, for lack of a better term? Of, what, the things we can do, and build in a forward looking way today, that will make migrating to whatever best practices emerge from the customer learnings, or the rest, in the future, not be the equivalent of an entire migration? >> Yeah, so, I think what you're asking, right, is, how can I make, kind of, adopting new technologies, or migrating, a little bit easier? >> Yeah. Or even, adopting new patterns. >> That's a really interesting one. Yeah. I think where I see this space kind of going, and where I think it gets interesting to me, is thinks like App Mesh. So, I can have many different kinds of compute inside of a mesh, through App Mesh, right? So I can have an application running on EC2, I can have a container running with EKS, or ECS, I can have Kubernetes on EC2. In the fullness of time, I'd love to see things like Lambda functions inside an App Mesh. What I like about that, is that, how that can make the migration process easier. Because if I can have many types of primitives in the same mesh, I can mix and match, or I can drain traffic off from one to the other, and I can experiment a little bit more without having to re-write, 'cause I can try it out. It can be part of the same mesh, and if I want to move, I can just move more stuff over. So, I think that's interesting, and I think, as for, kind of, the best practices, and stuff like that, we evolve hand in hand with our customers. As our customers are figuring out new technologies that they want to use, or new ways of building things, we want to be right there with them. And I think the AWS way is about, how can we help customers build whatever way they want to do, but help them be secure, reliable and scalable. >> Yeah. What I'm hearing from that, as a take away, is, if I'm not playing around with service mesh's, or app mesh's now, it's probably time to fix that, and learn how they work. >> I think it's a new technology. I think it's an interesting one, I'm excited to see where it goes, but, watching it, kind of, grow along with Kubernetes, has been really interesting. >> All right, well Abby Fuller, thanks so much for joining again on theCUBE. >> Thanks for having me. >> For Corey Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman, you're watching KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2019, in Barcelona, Spain, thanks for watching theCUBE. (futuristic music)

(jazzy music) >> From our studios in the heart of Silicone Valley Palo Alto, California. This is a CUBE Conversation. >> Hello everyone, welcome to this special CUBE Conversation. I'm John Furrier with my cohost Abby Kearns, the Executive Director of The Cloud Foundry Foundation, my cohost. With Blair Hanley Frank, Principal Analyst at ISG Insights. Blair, great to see you, former journalist at Venturebeat. >> Great to see you again. >> Great to have you on theCUBE finally. Yes, likewise. It's good to be here. >> Thanks for coming on. So, I'd love to start to find out what you're working on. You've been covering the tech sector as a journalist now, as an analyst. You've always done good work, I always admired what you've done. I'm sure you're digging into some really good stuff. What are you researching? What are some of the things you're finding around cloud? What the, what's the data tell us? >> Yeah, awesome. So we have a forthcoming cloud study where we talked to 300 enterprise IT decision makers and we asked them what they're doing today what they're looking to do in the future and how they're doing it. And we're taking all of that information and we're putting that together with the information that we have from ISG's advisor and practitioner community. And building an understanding of where the market is and where it should be. And that's what we have going on today. One of the things that we think is really important, is when we look and the data and we look what's going on in the market, what we find really important is that enterprises today are starting to move to the cloud. They have some workloads in SaaS. They have some workloads in a public cloud, IaaS or PaaS. And then they have a lot of stuff that's still on premises. And that exists in a wide variety of workloads. Whether that's on bare metal, whether that's virtualized whether that's some sort of cloud native or containerized application that's still running on prem all the way up until the cloud and what we see is that those different modes of operation are actually going to continue to exist throughout the enterprise. Even as we see more workloads shift into the public cloud. Enterprises aren't realistically going to be able to retire all of their on premises investments for the foreseeable future. >> Nor should they. >> Right And so what they-- >> Amazon confirmed that with Outposts. You saw Azure Stack, I mean that's total. I mean, first the VMware deal, the RDS on premises, and then you've got the Outpost which still hasn't, we haven't heard anything about that. That's validation, Amazon essentially saying, "I'm going to put cloud on premise." >> Yeah. >> Cloud Operations. So certainly that's validated. The question I want to ask you and Abby, get your thoughts too if you want to chime in over the top. But I've always been critical of the cloud market share game, right? Like, I've always been vocal on theCUBE. Because it's always been infrastructure service, platform service and then SAS is the application. Now Amazon has some SAS but most of their SAS is their customers. Google's got G Suite, they've got their own SAS. Microsoft's got Office 365. So when you start bundling SAS revenues into cloud market share and revenue projections. You start to see, you know, sandbagging of the numbers. I mean you can talk to sales forces today in a work day, they have clouds. So what's a cloud? What is cloud technologies? And, you know, Azure as that develops all the sudden has this massive market share. And it didn't really exist a few years ago. Where'd that come from? Is that just a shift of some sandbagging on the revenue side? Or is that actually real cloud? Or is it, so this is the game that the customer has to squint through. Now we in the industry know that okay, a little bit of Office 365. Okay, is that really cloud? >> Yeah, I mean, when you think about financials with cloud vendors. Everybody is playing a slightly different shell game. And generally speaking, you're not really going to get real numbers from anybody. Except possibly Amazon. And the reason why Amazon is able to do that is because the financial results for AWS look great. But everybody else is going to be masking. >> But they don't have a lot of SaaS though. The think about there, their SaaS number is their customer base. So I mean-- >> Yeah, but I would argue cloud is nothing but infrastructure with a SaaS on top of it. I mean, we talk about cloud as if there's some magic kind of thing happening over here. But it's basically a different kind of data center with a different kind of SaaS on top of it. And I think if I'm, if it's me reporting my numbers out. Well, I'm going to make them look as good as I possibly can. >> CUBE Cloud is coming out with great numbers. (laughing) >> I mean, look. You're going to make it look as great as you can. I mean, infrastructure is infrastructure is infrastructure. But now like, when you talk about SAS on top of that. Well, what's cloud? What's not? And it's super, it's a very fungible definition. >> Alright, I'm not disagreeing on that point. I see how that makes sense. The question for people who are making quote, "decisions" on the buyers side. They tend to think of things like "cloud supplier"? Is that really a word? Like what does that mean? So if you're going to say cloud's part of a workload is that actually even relevant. A "cloud supplier", I mean, I guess they're supplying cloud to you. But, so when you start to get into the vendors versus the buyers and the consuming of the technology. We get in that old school game of trying to put things into like market share, revenue. I mean, I see Amazon just kicking ass ten ways from Sunday. And I think Azure's certainly doing some good things there. Google, we're going to see what's going on with Google. They've got great direction. But, it's like apples, oranges and pears. Right, like are they all the same or different? And then throw Salesforce in there. This is where it muddies the water. >> And Alibaba. >> Alibaba! So, I mean, so it's hard to like figure this out. So I'd love to get your thoughts on how you guys see that in the studies. Are customers confused? Do they have some visibility into what they want to do? What's out there in the data on this point. >> So, what I will say directionally speaking, SaaS is where the market is going. So when we asked our survey respondents for where are there applications today and where did they want to go? 90% of those people we surveyed, 90% of the 300 people we surveyed around the world said in 2019 we are primarily in a hybrid mode. Where our applications are on premises and in a public cloud. 5% of them said, the majority of our applications are in SaaS. Now when you look at 2021, 37% say that they expect to be in a hybrid mode. 61% expect that they are going to be majority SaaS for their workloads, in two years. >> So they're in build up mode, they're in shifting mode. >> They're shifting, and they're not just, they're planning to shift to SaaS. They're planning to, they want to get out of the business of running applications. And put some of that burden onto providers to say, "Okay, it's your job to run the application. We'll provide the data. We'll build our business processes but we don't want our job to be running those apps." And what we see is that when you look at total cost of ownership, our respondents found SaaS to be far more predictable in terms of TCO than IaaS and PaaS. And again, for those people who are are really paying attention. If you think about it, that doesn't. Like, that's not a surprise. But on the other hand, that's like, I think that's part of where the driver comes from. Is that when you're consuming a SaaS product, it's very understandable. It's very consumable. When you think about running application in an Iaas, PaaS environment. Maybe not so much. It's going to be, you're more in charge of that application. So-- >> And SaaS has got immediate gratification. >> Exactly. >> I mean, you see the benefits. >> Easy to consume. >> Is there revenue there, is it doing its objective? Why is the IAZ fuzzy? Just because it's a classic back office kind of mindset? Or is it more of maturity? It seems mature to me, I mean, I don't I think IAZ has been more mature than ever before right now. Now we kind of-- >> I think its been around awhile, I mean I'd love to hear your answer. I think it's, there's just, I feel it's a relic of the past. Whereas, it's not something we spend much time thinking about. Like, there's that old joke. You know, "Great job keeping the servers up" said no CEO ever. Right? (laughing) >> That's a good point. But now apart from the servers you've got SageMaker, you've seen what Amazon's moving with the Stack with SageMaker. Machine learning, all of this kind of SASification kind of platform creeping up to the top of the stack. It seems to be what everyone talks about. I'm sure Google next will hear all about AI and how Iot Edge or some focus around that piece. So, again I agree. It's the commoditization is just another distraction layer on top of it. >> Yeah. >> Sure. >> We've seen that movie before. >> We're moving up the stack, we're just moving up the stack at a faster pace than we have in the last two decades. >> So bottom line, Blair. What's the survey, what's the net net telling us? What's coming out of it? >> So the net net here is really that enterprises need to have a strategy and an operating model in place for the long haul. When they think about their cloud strategy overall, this is something where they're not going to be able to snap their fingers and get to cloud-native nirvana overnight. Because that requires technical change, it requires culture change, it requires process change. There's a lot of very heavy lifting that takes place and not all of the applications that exist in an enterprise today really need that heavy lift. And so when you think about what the future holds for enterprises. They really need to build a model for how they are going to make that transition as smooth as possible. Take advantage of the new capabilities that are entering the market as quickly as possible to help advance their business. While at the same time having the opportunity to work across all of those different modes of operation and do so with high reliability, high customer satisfaction, high performance. All of the things that you need to succeed as a business in 2019. >> So I totally agree. This is a heavy lift to go kill the old and bring in the new. And one of the things that I've seen as a trend, and I'd love to get your guys' thoughts on this, as a reaction. Because I've seen the Kubernetes trend really let a lot of air out of that tension. Because it allows people to get in with containers to get in around some workloads and bring kind of baby steps into transitioning stuff. And I've seen people saying, "You know what. I like the idea of going cloud but I got this app that I really don't want to shut it down and have to rebuild it. But I could put some containers around things, run it on some Vms, use Kubernetes to orchestrate it." So I think this has been, I'm not sure if it's actually been deployed in massive production. But I've heard people say that. Is that hype or is that reality? Is it becoming a crutch, is it a short term transitional? >> I got to drag out my soap box for this 'cause I have a soap box for this. >> Okay, let's go. >> I'm not a big believer in lift and shift. I think there are times where it may be opportunistic. When you're like end of life-ing hardware or something like that. But I'm not a big believer that a cloud is a goal. Because cloud should not be your goal. If I'm a business, my goal should not be cloud. My goal should be, how do I write more applications more quickly? And maybe, how do I use infrastructure in better and more efficient ways? But cloud is not my goal. If that's my goal, then I'm going to be really sad at the end of the day. Because that hasn't made my business better. So I think, I feel like we've all over rotated-- >> You're saying it's not the outcome. The outcome is the app that benefits from doing that. >> The outcome, if you're a bank and you tell me your goal is to be on the cloud. Well, then I'm like, you've got the wrong goal. Your goal should be, how am I writing more applications and getting them out into the hands of my customer and changing my business faster? If the cloud gets me to that, great! But that may not be the answer for all of your workloads and you need to really think about that before you say "my goal is cloud". My goal is to write more applications faster. Period. And if that's on the cloud or if that's on prim or if that's on bare metal, what have you. But I need to really think about what my outcome is. And I feel like we've really focused on the cloud as the solution and that's not the solution. And if you're check boxing, you know, I'm done for the year because I moved a bunch of stuff to the cloud. Well you're, the works not done. The work is the culture part and the team part and really figuring out the applications I need to create And how do I iterate on those applications? The cloud is just, it's a bi product of that. >> It should be enabling the outcome they want. >> Right. >> That's a great soap box. Your thoughts on the overall lift and shift soap box rant by my cohost Abby here? >> Yeah, I think that the, the big opportunity is to do what's right for the business. That's ultimately what should be driving any sort of transformation. I had a conversation with a start up once. They were very focused on taking their monolithic application and going to microservices. And they were like, "we're going to go to microservices. That's what we want to do because that's the future. That's what a modern application looks like." And they started decomposing their application what I would call radically decomposing their application. Getting down to the atomic, you know, moment of how small can we make every single piece of this application. What they figured out was that it was a massive headache. And so they actually then, took it and sort of re-composed the application into not microservices but what they called mega-services. Where they-- >> And then they ended up writing a book and being famous and doing a speaking tour. But they didn't achieve the objective. >> And so, and that's exactly it. That they all of the sudden created this host of technical problems by pursuing an ideal that wasn't-- >> And this is the danger, the dogma. Danger of having the dogma of a certain trend. I remember during the big data days when we were covering the Duke movement around 2010, 2011, 2012. I would hear this all the time in side cloud era. "Man, I just set up an 18 note cluster. I'm so pumped!" Well, what are you doing with it? "Well, I just collect data." I'm like well, I get it, I get. And then what happened was, that was their end game. We see a lot of that with clouds, your point where, it's not about, it's what you're using it for. And then they had to make up the term data lake after that. So again, they just kept adding on more but they actually missed the entire boat because it was about making data addressable for apps. >> It used to make things useful. >> So this is the danger of the tech world. >> And making it useful. Yeah, I feel like we follow the shiny penny. As opposed to saying, "Actually is that actually even relevant for me?" You know, when Docker came out in 2014 and every conversation started with, that was the answer for everything. Whatever you wanted. Do you want toast for lunch? Docker? And I feel like that was the answer for everything. And I feel like, why? Like, one, why do you care about a container? And two, like why? >> Containers were pretty cool though. >> Sure, they're cool. But containers have been around since 1969. >> Summer of love. The containers, ya know? >> It was, but I feel like, ya know everyone's like "that's my answer" and you're like "Well, what's the question you're asking?" And I feel like we continue, we went from Docker to the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. And I feel like we're not pausing to say "actually what are we hoping to gain?" You're point. >> So Kubernetes, what do you think is Kubernetes a shiny penny or shiny new toy? Or does that have any relevance in your mind in your soap box? Where does Kubernetes fit into your, your view. >> I mean I think Kubernetes is an amazing technology that has done a lot for the way think about scheduling and container orchestration. But it is also become victim of the shiny penny and that everyone is like "Kubernetes!" And you know, two years ago everyone is like "Kubernetes!" It's like how many people were using it two years ago? Not that many. And so I think about it in this like, and I often ask, "Why do you care so much about a container orchestrator?" >> FTO sold almost 650 million or whatever the number. >> 515, I know the Vmware. >> Is it 515 was the number? >> 515. >> That's half a billion dollars. That's Kubernetes' ca ching. >> I lived my two years, my last two years wrong. That's what I did. (laughing) But that's a different story about all of my mistakes. >> You could have been the Kubernetes foundation. >> But I think-- >> CNCF is doing pretty well, I mean, that community is rallying. It feels like an Amazon alternative. They feel cloud, it's very cloud native. So I think Kubernetes has been a good rallying cry, for sure. >> It is but I think you're also, you know, what you see even in CNCF which has so many amazing technologies. I do not want to take away from that but you also see the shiny penny effect happening within that community. You know, when I went to CUBECON in December you know, what was the hot topic? It wasn't Kubernetes it was Istio. You heard Istio everywhere. And I've never seen this many people so excited about service mesh in my life. I'm like "Great! This is awesome!" >> We love it on theCUBE, it's great content. Service mesh is great. Who wouldn't want policy staple applications? Come on! >> Well, ultimately the like-- >> Hold on. (inhaling) >> Exactly >> Have some of that staple, I'm saying. Fantasyland. >> I'm excited about it. >> No, stakes hard. >> Well, and this is what I end up telling clients is you want to adopt the parts of the stack that are necessary for you to solve the problems that you have. Right? If you are in the position where you need a service mesh, you know because you are having problems that only a service mesh can solve. And if you aren't in that position then you get to be like the 60% of respondents in our survey who said that they are currently experimenting with a service mesh. Or, the 33% who say that they plan to use it in the future. >> 60% are experimenting with it? >> Yeah, well, probably-- >> That numbers way high. >> Well, it's probably somebody has it running on some VM somewhere. >> It seems really high. >> Well if you look at the success at CUBECON one of the things that, Envoy is a great example, and you talk about some of the challenges-- >> Envoys great. >> The challenges that enterprises have. If you look at the success of all the open source projects, the ones that have been super successful. It's the folks that had to build it for themselves. Envoy had a lift. And I think this is a challenge that I see. I haven't really figured it out in the enterprise yet, how that's going to play out. It generally seems to be that the enterprises don't necessarily want to be like them. But they want the same kind of control. "I want to roll out my own cloud." But they don't want to have an open stack problem. Meaning, they don't want to have something that's not supported. So you have this kind of new changeover vibe going. I really haven't put my finger on it but it's, it has that same vibe. >> Well, enterprises are more in control. And what we've seen in our research is that enterprises actually feel comfortable now. They no longer feel like they're in the fog of war like "I don't know what's goin on!" They're more like "Oh, we actually understand and we're on it." And they're being more thoughtful about the technologies that they use. And they are experimenting more. And they're feeling really confident. But you know, my caution is always, use the technology when it makes sense, as it makes sense. But at the end of the day as a business owner, your fundamental question is, does this serve my outcomes? Does this serve my business outcomes? And if the answer is, I don't know. Then really think about what you're investing in in terms of technology. I mean, I love all of these technologies. But I'm never going to recommend all of them if that's not actually going to be in your best interest. >> That's great stuff. Well, thanks for coming on Blair. Appreciate it. You going to be at Google next? Cloud Foundry in Philly? In April, first week of April? >> Unfortunately, I won't make it to the Cloud Foundry Summit. >> Google Next, next month? >> Sure will. >> Alright, We'll see you there. >> Abby, thanks for co hosting this segment with me. >> Any time, John. >> Sharing the data here with my cohost Abby and John here. Co hosting the first ever CUBE, What we'd call it? Cloud? >> Cloud CUBE. >> Cloud CUBE. >> Rebrand. >> TheCUBE, thanks for watching. (jazzy music)

(funky music) >> From our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California. This is a CUBEConversation. >> Everyone, welcome to this CUBEConversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. Here in theCUBE Studios here with Abby Kearns, Executive Director, Cloud Foundry Foundation, CUBE alumni. Great to see you again. I think this is your eighth time on theCUBE chatting. Always great to get the update. Thanks for spending the time. >> My pleasure, and it's a joy to drive down to your actual studios. >> (laughs) This is where all happens Wednesdays and Thursdays when we're not on the road doing CUBE events. I think we'll have over 120 events this year. We'll certainly see you at a bulk of them. Cloud Foundry, give us the update. Yeah, we took 'em joking before we came on camera. Boy this cloud thing is kind of working out. I mean, I think IBM CEO calls it chapter two. I'm like, we're still in chapter one, two, three? Give us the update Cloud Foundry, obviously open-source. Things are rocking. Give us the update. >> I do feel like we're moving into chapter two. Chapter one was a really long chapter. (laughs) It spanned about 10 years. But I do think we're starting to see actual growth and actual usage. And I think a lot of people are like, no, there's actually been usage for a while. Me, no no no not on a real scale. And we haven't seen any of the workloads for organizations running at massive scale. At the scale that we know that they can run at. But we're starting to see interesting scale. Like 40, 50 thousand applications, you know. Billions of transactions now passing through. A lot of cloud native technology. So we're starting to see real interesting volume. And so that's going to actually dictate how the next five years unfold because scale is going to dictate how the technologies unfold, how they're used. And they're going to feed into this virtuous cycle of how the technologies unfold, and how they're going to be used, which feedback into how enterprises are using them, and you know, and the cycle continues. >> Give us the update on the foundation. What's going on with the foundation, status, momentum, clouds out there. Obviously open-source continues to drive however we saw a lot of acquisitions and fundings around people who are using open-source to build a business around that. >> I love that. >> Your favorite conversation. But, I mean you know the technical challenges with open-source allow for technical challenges but also the people side is they're learning. What's the update with the foundation? >> Well open-source is really tricky, and I think there is a lot of people that are really enthusiastic as it is a because model. I mean last year 2018 was a pretty substantial year for open-source. The year ended with Red Hat's acquisition by IBM. One of their biggest acquisitions, $34 billion. But we saw in December alone, we also saw Heptio get picked up by VMware which is a services company which is really based on Kubernetes on an open-source technology. But we also saw HashiCorp get another round of funding. And then earlier in the year, Pivotal IPO'd. And so if you look at 2018 at a bigger level, you saw a lot of momentum around open-source and how it's actually being commercialized. Now you and I were talking a little bit prior and I'm a big believer that open-source has the potential and is going to change fundamentally how technology is used and consumed. But at the end of the day for the commercial aspects of it you still have to have a business around that. And I think there's always going to be that fine line. And that line is actually always be going to be moving because how you provide value in, around, and on top of open-source, has to evolve with both the market and your customer needs. >> Yeah and where you are on that wave, whatever wave that is, is it an early wave or is it more mature so the metrization certainly matters? >> Sure. >> You could be early on setting the table or if it's growing when there's some complexity. So it kind of depends, it's always that depends is it the cloud air or is it the Red Hat? There's different approaches and people kind of get confused on that and your answer to that is just pick one that works for, that's a good business model. Don't get hung up on kind of the playbook if you will, is that kind of what you're saying? >> Well I think we're seeing this play out this week with AWS's Elastic announcement, right? And there's been a lot of conversation around how do we think about open-source. Who has access to it? Who has the right to commercialize it? What does commercialization look like? And I think, I've always cautioned people that are proceeding down the path to open-source is really be thoughtful about why you're doing open-source. Like what is your, what are you hoping to achieve? There's a lot of potential that comes with open sourcing your technology. You gain ecosystem, community, momentum. There's a lot of positives that come with that but there's also a lot of work that comes with that too. Managing your community. Managing a much more varied share of stakeholders and people that are going to have thoughts and opinions around how that technology unfolds. And then of course it's because it's open-sources there's more opportunity for people to use that and build their own ideas and their own solutions on top of that. And potentially their own commercial products. And so really figuring out that fine line and what works best for your business. What works best for the technology. And then what your hopes are at the end of the day with that. >> And what are some of the momentums or points for the Foundation, with Cloud Foundry, obviously seeing Pivotal went public, you mentioned that VMWare, I talk to Michael Dell all the time, the numbers are great coming from that operation. Pat Kelson near the Amazon deal think that clear and where VMWare was. But still you have a lot more cloud, multi-cloud conversations happening than ever before. >> Well, for sure I mean at Cloud Foundry, we've actually been talking about multicloud since 2016. We saw that trend coming based on user behavior. And now you've seen everyone is multicloud, even the public clouds are multicloud. >> I think you had the first study out on that, too on multicloud. We did. We were we were firm believers in multicloud. Last year we've actually moved more broadly to multi-platform. Because at the end of the day there isn't one technology that solves all of these problems. Multicloud is you know is pervasive and at the end of the day multicloud means a lot of different things to a lot of people. But for many enterprises what it gives is optionality. You don't want to be locked into a single provider. You don't want to be locked into a single cloud or single solution because you know if I'm an enterprise, I don't know where I'm going to be in five years. Do I want to make a five year or a 10 year or a 20 year commitment to a single infrastructure provider when I don't know what my needs are going to be. So having that optionality and also being able to use the best of what clouds can provide, the best services, the best outcomes. And so for me, I want to have that optionality. So I'm going to look at technologies that give me that portability and then I'm going to use that to allow me to choose the best cloud that I need for right now for my business and maybe again a different one in the future. >> I want to get your thoughts on this. I just doubled down on this conversation because I think there's two things going on that I'm saying we'll get your reaction to. One is I've heard things like pick the right cloud for the right workload and I heard analogies. Hey, if you got an airplane you need to have two engines. You have one engine if it works for that plane, but your whole fleet of planes could be other clouds. So, pick the right cloud for the right workload. Meaning workload is defined spec. >> Yeah. >> I've also heard that the people side of the equation, where people are behaving like they are comfortable with API's tooling is potentially a lock-in, kind of by default. Not a technical lock-in, but people are comfortable with the API's and the tooling. >> Yeah. >> And the workloads need a certain cloud. Then maybe that cloud would be it. That's not saying pick that cloud for the entire company. Right, so certainly that the trend seems to be coming from a lot of people in the news saying hey, this whole sole-cloud, multi-cloud thing argument really isn't about one cloud vs. multiple clouds. It's workload cloud for the use case in the tooling, if it fits and the people are there to do it. Then you can still have other clouds and that's in the multi-cloud architecture. So is that real? What's your thoughts on that? >> Let's dissect that 'cause I think that's actually solving for two different outcomes. Like one multi-cloud for optionality's purpose and workload specific. I think it's a great one. There's a lot of services that are native to certain clouds that maybe you really would like to get greater access to. And so I think you're going to choose the best. You know that's going to drive your workload. Now also factoring in that you know you're going to have a much more mediated access to cloud based on what people are comfortable with. I do think it's at some point as an organization you want to have a better control over that. You know historically over the last decade what we've seen. Shadow IT really dictates your Cloud spend right. You know everyone's got a credit card. I got I've got access to AWS. >> And they got most of that business. Amazon did. >> Yes and that served them quite well. If I am an organization that's trying to digitally transform, I'm also trying to get a better handle on what we're spending, how we're spending it and frankly, now if I have compliance requirements, where's my data? These are going to be important questions for you when you're starting to run production workloads at scale on multiple clouds and so, I predict we're going to see a lot more tension there in internal organizations. Like, hey I'd love for you to use cloud, you know? Where this no longer needs to be a shadow thing, but let's figure out a way to do it that's strategically and intentional versus just random pockets. Choosing to do cloud because of the workflow that they like. >> Well you bring up a good point. The cost thing was never a problem, but then you have sprawl and you realize there's a cost to Optimizer component which means you might be overpaying because as you think about the system aspects, you got networking and you got Cloud management factors. So you start as you get into that Shadow IT expansion. You got to realize, wait a minute, I'm still spending a lot of cash here. >> This adds up really really quickly. I mean, I think the information piece a couple weeks ago where they talked about the Pinterest bill, this stuff, it starts adding up. And for organizations, this is like not just thousands of dollars. It's now hundreds of thousands of dollars. If not you know, tens of millions of dollars. And so, if I'm trying to figure out ways to optimize my business and my scale, I'm going to look at that because that is not an insignificant amount of money. And so if I'm in it, that's money that could be better invested in more developers, better outcomes, a better alignment with my business, then that's where I want to spend my time and money, and so, I'm going to spend more time being really thoughtful about what clouds we're using, what infrastructure we're using, and the tools we're using to allow us to have that optionality. >> So you would agree with the statement if I said, generally, multi-cloud is here, it already exists. >> Yes. >> And that multi-cloud architecture thinking is really the conversation that needs to be had. Not so much cloud selection, per say. It's not a mutually exclusive situation. Meaning, I'm not all in on Amazon. I'm going to have clouds plural? >> Well, yeah you are. Like we have already seen as of early last year over half of our users. Which right now over half the Fortune 500 are multi-cloud already, and that number has gone up since last year I'm for sure. Some workloads were on-prem and some are in a public cloud. Be it GCP, AWS, Azure, or AliCloud. And so that is a statement of fact. And I have every executive that I've talked to with every enterprise has been like, yes, we're doing multi-cloud. >> Yeah, they're going to have some kind of on-prem anyway, So we know that's there. That's not going to go away. >> No, PRIM is not going to go away. >> Then an IOT edge, and an Enterprise Edge, SDWAN comes back into vogue as people start using SAS across network connections. >> Yeah. >> I mean, SDWAN is essentially the internet basically. >> I feel like the older I get the more I'm like, wow, didn't I have this conversation like, 20 years ago? (laughs) >> I was talking about something earlier when I came in. The old becomes the new again. It's what's happening, right? Distributor computing now goes to cloud, you got the Enterprise. What are the big players doing? Google Next is coming up next month, big event. >> It is the week after Cloud Foundry Summit. >> They got Amit Zavery, big news over there they poached from Oracle. So Thomas Kurian brought in his Oracle, who is Cube alumni as well. Really smart guy. Diane is not there. What do you expect from Google Next for the week? What are we going to see there? What's the sentiment? What's the vibe? What do you see happening? >> Well, I think it's going to be all about the Enterprise right. That's why Thomas was brought in. And then I think they really give Google that Enterprise focus and say, how do we end up? As it's not just about I'm going to sell to enterprises. That's not, you know, when you're selling to an enterprise there is a whole different approach and you have to write how to the teams, the sales teams. You have to write how to the ecosystem, the services, the enablement capabilities, the support, the training, the product strategy? All of that takes a very different slant when you're thinking about an enterprise. And so I'm sure, that's going to be front-and-center for everything that they talk about. >> And certainly he's very public about, you know, the position Oracle Cloud, he knows the Enterprise Oracle was the master of enterprise gamesmanship for sure. >> Yes, for sure. You don't get a whole lot more enterprising than Oracle. >> What's going on in the CNCF any news there? What's happening on the landscape? What's the Abby take on the landscape of cloud? >> Well, speaking as someone that does not run CNCF. >> Feel free to elaborate. >> Cloud Native Computing Foundation, for those of you that aren't aren't, you know, aren't familiar is a sister open-source organization that is a clearing house or collective of cloud made of technologies. The anchor project is the very well-known Kubernetes, but it also spans a variety of technologies from everything from LINKerD to SEDA to Envoy, so it's just a variety of cloud-native technologies. And you know they're continuing to grow because obviously cloud-native is becoming you know it's coming into its own time right now. Because we're starting to really think about how to do better with workloads. Particularly workloads that I can run across a cloud. I mean and that seems pretty pedantic but we've been talking about Cloud since 2007. And we were talking about what cloud brings. What did cloud bring, it brings resiliency. You can auto-scale. You can burst into the cloud, remember bursting? Now all the things we talked about in 2007 to 2008 but weren't really reality because the applications that were written weren't necessarily written to do that. >> And that's exactly the point. >> So now we're actually seeing a lot more of these applications written we call them microservices, 12 Factor apps, serverless apps. What have you but it's applications written to run and scale across the cloud. And that is a really defining point because now these technologies are actually relevant because we're starting to see more of these created and run and now run at scale. >> Yeah, I think that's the point. I think you nailed it. The applications are driving everything And I think that's the chapter two narrative. In my opinion, chapter one was, let's get infrastructures code going. And chapter two is apps dictating policy and then you're going to see microservices start to emerge. Kind of new different vibe in terms of like what it means for scale as less of about, hey, I'm doing cloud, I got some stuff in the public cloud. Here the conversation is around apps, the workloads and that's where the business value is. It's not like people who is trying to do transformation. They're not saying hey I stood up a Kubernetes Cluster. They're saying I got to deploy my banking app or I got to do, I got to drive this workload. >> And I have to iterate now. I can't do a banking app and then update it in a year. That's not acceptable anymore. You are constantly having to update. You're constantly having to iterate, and that is not something you can do with a large application. I mean the whole reason we talk a lot about monolithic vs 12 factor or cloud in a box is because it isn't that my monolithics are inherently bad, it's just they're big and they're complex. Which means in order to make any updates it takes time. That's where the year comes in, the 18-months come in. And I think that is no longer acceptable you know. I remember the time and I'm going to date myself here, but I remember the time when you know banks would or any e-commerce site would be down. They'd have what they call the orange page. But the orange page would come up, site down tonight 'cause we're doing maintenance for the weekend, right? >> Under construction. >> Under construction. Okay, well I'll just come back on Monday. That's fine. And now, you're like, if it's down for 5 minutes you're like what is actually happening right now. Why is this not here. >> Yeah like when Facebook went down the other day. I was like, what the hell? Facebook sucks. >> You know, the internet blows up if Instagram is down. Oh my God, my life is over and I think our our expectation now is not only constant availability. So you know always available. But also our expectation is real-time access to data transparency and a visibility into what's actually happening at all times. That I've said something that a lot of organizations are really having to figure out. How to develop the applications to expose that. And that takes time and that takes change. And there's a ton of culture change. it has to happen and that is the more important thing if I'm a business I care more about how do I make that a reality and I should care a lot less about the technologies that you use. >> It's interesting you mention about the monolith versus the decomposed application of being agile. Because if you don't have the culture and the people to do it it's still a monolithic effort in the sense of the holistic thinking and the architectural, it's a systems architecture. You have to look at it like a system and that's not easy either. Once get that done the benefits are multifold in terms of like what you can do. But its it's that systems thinking setup is becoming more of an architectural concept that's super important. >> For sure if I have a microservice app, but it takes a 150 people to get that through change management and get it into production well that will still take me a year. Does it matter if there's maybe 12 lines of code in that application? It doesn't matter and so, you know I spend a lot of time. Even though I run Cloud Foundry, I spend a lot of time talking about culture change. All the writing I do is really around cultural change and what does that look like. Because at the end of the day if you're not willing to make those changes, you're not willing to structure your teams and allow for that collaboration and if you're doing iterative work, feedback loops from your customers. If you're not willing to put those pieces into place there is no technology that's going to make you better. >> I totally agree, so let me ask you a question on that point, great point, by the way. Most followed your you're writing your blog posts in the links, but I think that's the question. When do you know when it's not working? So I've seen companies that are rearranging the deckchairs, if you will, to use an analogy with all the culture rah, rah! And then nothing ever happens right? So they've gone into that paralysis mode. When do you look at a culture? When does the executive, what should they be thinking about because people kind of aspire to do this execution that you said is critical? When do you know it's not working or what should they be doing? What's the best practice? How does someone say hey you know what I really want is to be more holistic in my architecture. I don't want to spend two years on that the architecture and then find out it's now just starting. I want to get an architecture in place. I want to hit the ground running. >> I mean it's twofold, one, start small. I mean you're not going to change you know if you're an 85 year old company with 200,000 people you're not going to change that overnight and you should expect that's going to be an 8 to 10 year process now what that's also going to mean is you're going to have to have a really clear vision and you're going to have to be really committed like this is going to be a hard road but conversely when someone says what does success look like, when you're looking at a variety of companies how do you know which ones which ones you think are going to be the most successful at the end of the day because no one's ever actually done any of this before there's no one that's ever gone through this digital transformation and it should have come out on the other side no one. There isn't and so I think what does success look and I said well for me, what I look for are companies that are investing and re-skilling their workforce. That's what I'm looking for. I get real excited when companies talk about their internal boot camps or their programs to rescale or upscale their teams because it's not like you're going to lay off 20,000 people and hire 20,000 cloud native developers, they don't exist and they're certainly not going to exists for thousands of companies to go and do that so you know how are you investing in re-skilling because-- >> It's easy to grow your own internally from pre-existing positions. >> Well sure, they know your business. >> Rather than go to a job board that has no one available. >> And you know at the end of the day that needs to be your new business model what is digital transformation actually it's just a different way of working and there isn't, there is no destination to the digital trend. This isn't a journey that has an end and so you need to really think about how are you going to invest differently in your people so that they can continuously learn continuously learning needs to be part of your model and your mantra and that needs to be in everything you do from hiring to HR to MBO's to you know how do you how do you structure your teams like how do you make sure that people can constantly learn and evolve because if that's not happening it doesn't you know everything else is going to fall by the wayside >> Is the technology gap easy to fill? Lot of tech out there. Talent gap hard to fill. >> For sure. >> That's the real challenge. >> If you have all the best tech in the world but you don't have the right people or the right structure are you going to be successful, probably not. >> Yeah, that's a challenge. Alright, so final question for you where are you going to be, what's your schedule look like, where can people find you, what events going to be at? You guys have an event coming up? >> April 2nd through 4th in Philly. We're going to have a summit you want to see some people that are actually running cloud at scale that's the place to go >> April 5th? >> 2nd through 4th. First week of April Philly, fingers crossed good weather lots of cloud talk and it's a great way. >> City of Brotherly Love >> Yes, we're bringing it. >> Philadelphia. The Patriots couldn't make it to the playoffs last year but love the Philly fans down there Paul Martino and friends down there. Abby thanks for coming on. Appreciate it-good to see you. Thanks for the update. We'll see you around the events, I won't be able to make your event I'll be taking the week off skiing. >> Well one of us has to. >> First vacation of the year, two years. Thanks for coming in. >> You should do that. >> Abby Kearns here inside theCUBE for CUBEConversation I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching (funky music)

>> Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE covering DockerCon 18, brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of DockerCon 2018. We are in San Francisco at Moscone, US. It's a spectacular day in San Francisco. It's a day to play hooky frankly, or play hooky and watch theCUBE. I'm Lisa Martin with John Troyer, and we're excited to welcome to theCUBE Abby Fuller, Developer Relations from AWS. Abby, great to have you here. >> Happy to be here. >> So you were a speaker at DockerCon 2018. Tell us a little bit about that and your role in Developer Relations. >> So I work in Developer Relations for AWS. So I used to be a devops engineer, and now I go around talking to customers and developers and other software engineers, and teaching them how to use things with AWS, or this morning it was teaching everyone how to build effective Docker images. >> So I read in your bio on the DockerCon website of the speakers that you're a container fan. We know you're a music fan, but you're also a container fan. What is it about that technology that you just go, "Oh, this is awesome, "and I can't wait to teach people "about the benefits of this"? >> So I switched over to container as a customer before I started working at AWS, and the biggest reasons for me, the first one was portability, so that I could do everything that I needed to run my application all in one place. So I think a big problem for a lot of developers is the whole what works on my machine? So being able to package everything together so that it worked on my machine, but also on a staging environment, a QA environment, and on your machine, that was the biggest thing for me. And that it removed some of the spaghetti code that came before, and it just made everything, it was all packaged nicely, I could deploy it a little bit more easily, a little bit faster, and I eliminated a lot of the why doesn't it work now when it worked before? >> Abby, one of the paradoxes of where we are in 2018 is AWS has been around for a decade, but yet here at the show, about half the folks raised their hand to the question, this is your first DockerCon? Are you just getting started with Docker and containers? So as an evangelist, Evangelist Developer Relations, you're the front line of talking with people at the grassroots. So can you talk a little bit about some of the different personas you encounter? Are you meeting people who are just getting started with their container journey? Or are you spending a lot of time kind of finessing the details about that API, APIs and changes and things like that at AWS? >> I think my favorite part about talking to AWS customers is that you get the whole range, right? So you get people that are just starting and they wanna know how do I build a container? How do I run it? How do I start from zero? And then you get the people that have been doing it for maybe a year or maybe two years, and they're looking for like advanced black belt tips, and then you get the other group which is not everyone is building a greenfield application, so then you get a really interesting subset where they're trying to move over from the whole monolith to micro services story. So they're trying to containerize and kind of adopt agile containerize approaches as they're moving over, and I think the best part is being able to talk to the whole range 'cause then it's never boring. >> What are some of the big barriers that you see for organizations that are maybe on the very very beginning of the journey or maybe before it, when you're talking with customers or developers, what are some of the things that you're hearing them say, "Ah, but what about these? "How can you help me eliminate these challenges?" >> Two big ones for me. The first one is the organizational changes that go around the infrastructure change. So it doesn't always work to just containerize what you already had, and then call it a day. So a lot of people are decomposing, they're going with micro services at the same time as they're going with containers. And I think wrapping your head around that kind of decomposition is the first kind of big challenge. And I think that we really just had to educate better. So show people, so here are some ways that you can break your service up, here are some things to think about when you're figuring out service boundaries. And I think the other one is that they often want a little bit of help when they're getting started. So either educational resources or how can AWS manage part of their infrastructure? Will they focus on the container part? So it's really interesting and it runs a whole gamut. >> Abby, you in Developer Relations, I love the trend, the community orient and trend, they're great, of peers helping peers, you're out there, you're wearing a Bruce Springsteen shirt right now, you made a Wu Tang joke in your talk today which is something that one did not do a few years back, right? You had to kinda dress up, and you were usually a man, and you wore a tie. >> Got my blazer on today. >> You look very sharp. Don't get me wrong. But as you talk to people, one, what's your day like or week like? How many miles do you have this year? That's private. But also as people come up to you, what do they ask you? Are you a role model for folks? Do people come up and say, "How can I do this too?" >> Yeah, so miles for this year. I think like 175,000. >> Already just in June? >> Already this year. So, this is a lot of what I do. I talk to all kinds of customers. I do bigger events like this, I do meet-ups, I do user groups, I go to AWS summits, and dev days and builders days, and things like that. I meet with customers. So day-to-day changes everyday. I'm obviously big on Twitter, spend a lot of time tweeting on planes. It really depends. This is a lot of what I do and I think people, I don't think you can ever really call yourself a role model, right? I love showing people that there's pass into tech that didn't start off with a computer science degree, that there's tons of ways to participate and be part of the tech community, 'cause it's a great community. >> You're not just a talker, you're a coder too. >> Yeah, yeah, so every job before this one with the exception of my very first job which was in sales. I was a dev ops engineer right up until I took the job at AWS, and I like to think that I never left, I'm just no longer on call. But I build my own demos, I write my own blog posts, I do all my own slides and workshops, so still super active, just not on call, so it's the best of all the worlds. >> So you went to Tufts, you didn't major in computer science. >> No. >> You are, I would say, a role model. You might not consider yourself one-- >> Well you can say it, yeah. >> I can say it exactly. It's PC if I say it. But, one of the things that's exciting to have females on the show, and I geek out on this is, we don't have a lot of females in tech. I mean, I think the last stat that I saw recently was less than 25% of technical roles are held by women. What was your career path if we can kinda pivot on that for a second, 'cause I think that's quite interesting. And what are some of the things that you've said, "You know what, I don't care. "I enjoy this, I wanna do this,"? 'Cause in all circumstances you are a role model, but I'd love to understand some of the things you encountered, and maybe some of your advice to those that'll be following in your footsteps. >> Yeah, so I went to school for politics. Programming was a little bit of a side hobby before that, mostly of the how can I do this thing, do this thing that it's not supposed to be doing? So I did that, I went to school. I took a computer science class my very last semester in school. I did not know that it was a thing before then, so I'm I guess a little slow in the comp sci uptake. And I was like, oh wow cool, this is an awesome, this could be an awesome career, but I don't know how to get into it. So I was like okay, I'm gonna go to a startup, and I'm gonna do whatever. So I take a sales job. I did that for maybe nine or 10 months. And I started taking on side projects. So how to write email templates in HTML that I could use that directly showed an impact to my sales job. Then the startup, as startups do, got acquired. And as part of the acquisition I moved my little CRM engineering job to the product team. And then, I'm gonna be honest, I bothered the CTO a lot. And I learned side projects. I was like I've learned Python now, what can you have for me? So I basically bothered him a lot until he helped me do some projects, and totally old enough now to admit that he was very kind to take a chance on me. And then I worked hard. I did a lot of online classes. I read a lot of books. I read a lot of blogs. I'm a big proponent in learning by doing. So I still learn things the same way. I read about it, I decide that I wanna use it, I try it out, and then at the point where I get where I don't quite know what's happening, I go back to documentation. And that got me through a couple of devops jobs until I got to evangelism. And I think the biggest advice I have for people is it's okay to not know what you want right away which is how I have a politics degree. But you can work at it. And don't be afraid to have mentors and communities and peers that can help you 'cause it's the best way to participate, and it's actually whether you have a comp sci job or not, it's still the best way to participate, and that you can have, there are so many nontraditional paths to tech, and I think everyone is equally valuable, because I think I write better coming from a liberal arts degree than I would have otherwise. So I think every skill that you bring in is valuable. So once you figure out what you want, don't be afraid to ask for it. >> The thing I'm hearing here is persistence. And it just reminded me, a quick pivot, of I hosted theCUBE at Women Transforming Technology just a couple weeks ago at VMWare, and they just made a massive investment, 15 million into a lab, a research lab at Stanford, to look at the barriers that women in tech are facing. And one of our guests, Pratima Rao Gluckman, just wrote a book called Nevertheless, She Persisted. It reminded me of you because that's one of the things that I'm hearing from you is that persistence that I think is a really unique thing there. Sorry, I just had to take a little side. >> I saw you looked that up. And actually I saw the title and I have not read it yet, but I have a flight back to New York after this so I'll have to find that. >> You've got time. >> Yeah. >> Over and over again as I talk with folks about IT and tech careers, right? It's that thinking expansively about your job, trying things, being a continuous learner, that is the thing that actually works. Maybe pivoting back to the tech for a sec then, obviously here container central, DockerCon 2018, Kubernetes actually was a big news this morning at the keynote, a big announcement, how Docker EE is gonna connect to Amazon EKS among others, kind of being able to manage the Kubernetes clusters up there in the cloud. And EKS actually just had, it just had its general availability I believe, right? In the last week or so? >> Yeah, so, excited to see EKS in the keynote this morning. We're always happy to deepen our partnerships. Yeah, and we've been in preview since re:Invent, and then we announced the general though of EKS, so Amazon Elastic Container Service for Kubernetes, long acronym. So EKS, we announced the GA last Tuesday. >> The interesting thing about AWS is somebody just compared it, I saw a tweet today to an industrial supply store and it's a huge warehouse full of tools that you can use, and that includes containers. But for containers, the three pieces that are the largest are EKS, ECS, and Fargate. Can you kinda tease those out for us really briefly? >> Yeah so envision if you would a flow chart. So if you wanna run a managed container on AWS, first you pick your orchestration tool, so EKS or ECS. ECS is the one that we've been working on for quite a few years now, so Elastic Container Service. Once you've chosen your orchestration tool, for ECS you have another set of choices which is either to run your containers in the EC2 mode which is manager, cluster, infrastructure as well, so the underlying EC2 hosts. And Fargate mode, where you only manage everything at the container level and task definition level, so no cluster management. >> And that's all taken care of for you. >> That's all taken care of for you. So Fargate I think is not actually a service in the traditional way that we would say that ECS is a service, and more of like an underlying technology, so that's what enables you to manage everything at just the container level and not at the cluster level. But I think the best way of describing it is actually is, there's a really nice quote floating around that said, "When I ask someone for a sandwich, "they don't wanna know the whole sandwich logistics chain, "so how do I get turkey, how do I get cheese, "how do I get mayo on the bread, "they just want the sandwich." So Fargate for, I think, a lot of people, is the sandwich. So I just want the sandwich, just give me your container, don't worry about the rest. >> So we've already established Abby has a lot of miles already in half a year, so I'm thinking two things. One, we should travel with her 'cause we're probably gonna get free upgrades. And two, you speak with a lot of customers. So tell us about that customer feedback loop. >> Something that I really love about working at Amazon is that so much of our roadmap is driven by customer feedback. So actually something that was really cool is that this morning, so ECS announced a daemon-scheduler, so run tasks one per host on every host in the cluster, so for things like metrics, containers, and log containers. And something that is so cool for me is that I asked for that as a customer, and I just watched us announced it this morning. It's incredible to see every single time that the feedback loop is closed, that people ask for it and then we build it. The same thing with EKS, right? We want you to have a great experience running your infrastructure on AWS, full stop. >> Can you give us an example of a customer that's really been impactful in terms of that feedback loop? One that really sticks out to you as a great hallmark of what you guys are enabling. >> I think that all of our customers are impactful in the feedback loop, right? Anyone from a really small startup to a really large enterprise. I think one that was really exciting to me was a very small Israeli startup. They went all in on managing no EC2 instances very quickly. They're called The Tree. So they were my customer speaker at the Tel Aviv summit, and they managed zero EC2 instances. So they have Fargate, they have Lambda, they managed no infrastructure themselves. And I just think it's so cool to watch people want things, and then adopt them so quickly. And the response on Twitter after the daemon-scheduler this morning is like, my favorite tweet was, "This is customer feedback done right." And I love seeing how happy people are when they ask for something or are saying, "Now that you've added that, "I can delete three Lambda functions "because you made it easy." And I love seeing feedback like that. So I think everyone is impactful, but that one stuck out to me as someone that adopted something incredibly quickly and have been so, they're just so happy to have a need solved for them. >> Well that's the best validation that you can get is through the voice of the customer. So to hear that must feel good that not only are we listening, but we're doing things right in a way that our customers are feeling how valuable they are to us. >> Happy customers are the best customers. >> They definitely are. >> Yeah. >> We learn a lot from the ones that aren't happy, and there's a lot of learnings there, but hearing that validation is icing on the cake. >> Always. >> Last question for you. With some of the announcements that came out today, and as this conference and its figure has grown tremendously, when I was walking out of the general session this morning, I took a photo because I don't think I've seen a general session room that big in a long time, and that was just at the Sapphire last week which has 20,000 attendees. I was impressed with how captivated the audience was. So last question, what excites you about some of the things that Docker announced today? >> So I think that's interesting. Something that's excited me in general is watching the community itself flourished. So there's many, there's Kubernetes CGroups, and there's user groups, the discussion online is always incredibly rich and vibrant, and there are so many people that are just so excited for anything. It's all companies building what they're looking for. And I love seeing things like the Docker Enterprise Edition announcement this morning where the demo is EKS, but I just love seeing customers get the choice to do whatever they want. They have all the options out there, and that you can see how much more rich and vibrant everything is. From even a couple years ago, there's more people every year, there's more sessions every year, the sessions are bigger every year. And I just love that. And I love seeing when people get so excited, and then seeing people that came to your talk two years ago, come back and give their own talk I think is amazing. >> Oh, talk about feedback. That must have felt really good. >> I think it's not a reflection on me, it's a reflection on the community. And it's a very supportive community, and it's a very excited and curious audience. So if you see their reception to other people that talk a lot being like, oh we're really happy to have you, then the next year you're like, well I have a story and I wanna tell it, so I'm gonna sit in my own session, and I think that's the best. >> Well Abby, it's been such a pleasure to have you on theCUBE, thank you. >> Thank you for having me. >> Thank you for stopping by. And your energy is infectious so you'll have to come back. >> Anytime. >> We wanna thank you for watching theCUBE. I'm Lisa Martin with John Troyer, live from San Francisco at DockerCon 2018. Stick around, we'll be right back after a short break. (upbeat music)

>> Male Narrator: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark. It's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018, brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome back, this is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of KubeCon 2018. Part of the CNCF Cloud Native Computing Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation, this is theCUBE. I'm John Furrier with co-host, with Lauren Cooney, founder of Spark Labs, helping me out as analyst this week, great to have our next guest, shared acquaintance, Abby Kearns, Executive Director of Cloud Foundry Foundation, Cube alumni, welcome back! >> Thanks for having me back again. >> Got your voice, you're losing your voice from all the talking you're doing here on Cloud Foundry. >> Cloud cloud cloud all the time. >> So we were talking yesterday, I want to get you on because you guys have done some research. >> Yeah. >> On cloud, and we were chatting about, I should give you a plug on the opening segment yesterday about some of the things you're finding about Kubernetes. Certainly in our bubble, it's so passe now, we're moving on to STO and CUBE Flow, but you have research that, you know, is mainstream tech, outside of the bubble we live in, is actually now evolving into the first inning of Kubernetes, if you will. What does the research say, what's that all about? >> Well, the research says, trying not to apologize already, my voice is all over the place, so we've been tracking containers for now almost three years and I remember three years ago, everyone's like, "Okay, well we've talked about Docker for years now, "it's so passe," but when you got beyond the bubbles where tech is, people were just like starting to think about it. And so containers are just now getting to where people are either using them or using them as proof of concept. But Kubernetes has become a really big part of the conversation the last year, and it's continuing to take it by storm, and so we're starting to see organizations that are interested in it, but in terms of adoption and awareness beyond just the core central, there's still a massive education gap there. And a really big opportunity to educate people, not only on these tools, but what they really want to know is how do these tools help them get through their day and accomplish their work? >> So essentially, there's a lag of sequence of early adopters, fast followers, and now mainstream. Mainstream are getting accustomed to containers, now hitting up on Kubernetes, we're still pushing the front line. >> Well I think, you know, we are, and I think this is one of my observations as well, Abby, is that we look at these technologies, right? And I'm in the hallways, and I'm talking to folks in the cab line and things along those lines, and they're just here to actually learn about the technology, about Kubernetes, they actually don't understand it fully yet, and they're trying to figure out really what to do with it, and their companies have sent them here. And then it's, you know, you talk to the folks that are, you know, kind of were here for the long haul and were there at the beginning of CNCF and things along those lines, and they're like, "Oh yeah, everyone's adopted it," right? So you've got these two spectrums and I think my question to you is, what do you think is needed for this to really cross the chasm? >> Well, I'll actually answer that with another piece of data We do global research, and one of the things we found, we ask about, "What are your priorities for the next "couple of years?" and resoundingly across every persona, so developers, operators, IT decision makers, executives, their top three priorities for the next two years is continuous delivery. So let's think about that: continuous delivery for me is a priority; building that culture change is a priority; and so the tech is there to supplement that. But the real work, the hard work, is a priority, and I think that's exactly where it should be. So as these organizations really implement that continuous delivery methodology, they're going to pull these technologies in to supplement that. >> So it's not a technology problem, it's a people problem. But your point is, to the industry, let's be realistic and understand the segments that are adopting at what pace, matching education or evangelism or transformation at the right piece of the journey. >> Yeah, I mean all this tech, even Cloud Foundry, is a supplemental tool. >> Yeah. >> The hard work is really continuous delivery, building in that culture change, making software a core part of your business, making technology part of your day-to-day conversation, and that heavy lift has to come in order for any of these technologies to be successful. >> You guys have done a great job, I just want to say, Cloud Foundry, I want to give you some props. Congratulations on the work you've done. Take a minute to talk about some of the success. You're an ingredient in a lot of successful applications out there; what are some of the stats? How many people are using Cloud Foundry? What's some of the uptick, share some of the numbers of the performance with Cloud Foundry. >> Well, I mean we're in use of over half the Fortune 500 across every industry; what's been so phenomenal and so awesome about Cloud Foundry, and we really saw this at Summit, is all the industries that are using this to change. But what was interesting about our last summit, which we just had a couple of weeks ago, is all of these companies want to get on stage and not talk about the tech; they want to talk about the culture change. You know, hearing Boeing get on stage and say, "Actually, you know what the real work is "is the transformation we had to undergo "in order to do this work," and hear that over and over again, and it's so awesome to be part of that change because technology needs to be there to supplement that change and be part of that. But it's really great to see this come into fruition, like hearing the stories from Home Depot and Comcast and US Air Force and how it's fundamentally changing their businesses and helping them get out the door at scale, I mean that's really where the cool stuff happens. >> You've had great success there, and a lot of end users too, it's not like a bunch of one-offs. >> No. >> So how's the summit last week in Boston? >> It was amazing. We had half of our attendees at our summit are end users. And you know, the big high I get is like, hearing everyone talk about what they're doing and "This is what I did!" and stuff you've never heard of. Like, "Oh, I didn't realize you were using that," and "Oh, that's a really great way to use it "in very inventive ways," and so it really just refreshes you, like "Oh, this is what matters." The users and how they're using it and what they're going to do with the tech, I mean, isn't that why we're all here, right? And it's great, and they're creating such amazing technologies that it makes you energized about what's going on. >> Yeah, and I think it's amazing to me, cause I was actually at the Cloud Foundry summit as well, and there was one customer, I can't remember the name that got on stage, and they were using like, they had 2100 end users or something like that, developers, their company actually using Cloud Foundry, and I think that was the number, and I think it was really tremendous to see how many people inside of one company are actually using the technology across the board. It was really great. >> I mean, this is all about, I mean we're at a modern software era, and this is a whole new guard coming on board, and it's a whole new architecture. >> And it's a whole new way of thinking about it. Like, you know right now, we talk about how tech and there's a gap and we're pushing the tech and people are going to get there, but it's not going to be too long before the enterprises are pushing back and saying, "Hey, this is what I need, here's where I am, "I'm running at a scale you didn't think about yet." You know we're running, we have a lot of users that are running tens of thousands and thousands of applications: what about when they're in the hundreds of thousands of applications, and what does that look like? And they're saying, "Well I'm going to do this, "and here's what I need to do." >> There are going to be a lot of microservices. Abby, I got to ask you to end the segment. Thanks for coming on, I know you were rushed to come on, I appreciate you taking the time, you're super busy. What's your priorities for next year? Obviously you got a lot of successes under your belt. What's next, what are you going to check off the list this year? >> Well, inner operability is a big theme for me this year. And what does that mean, that means building bridges to other technologies and other projects, like the amazing work that's happening in CNCF and all those great technologies, so making sure that when those technologies mature, how do we bring those to the enterprise, and then really continuing to work on an ecosystem and work with our members and to really get more contributors around the table. >> Awesome, developers and contributors, dev plus contribute, thanks for coming on. >> My pleasure. >> Thanks Abby. >> You're contributing your insight and I know you've got the voice going, but appreciate you taking the time, so Kube conversations here at theCUBE here in Denmark for KubeCon 2018, part of CNCF. I'm John Furrier with Lauren Cooney, we'll be right back after this short break. (techno music)

>> Announcer: From Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE covering Cloud Foundry Summit 2018 brought to you by the Cloud Foundry Foundation. >> I'm Stu Miniman and this is theCUBE's coverage of Cloud Foundry Summit 2018 here in Boston, Massachusetts, happy to welcome back to the program Abby Kearns who's the executive director and goddess of the Cloud Foundry Foundation. Abby. >> Yes. >> Thanks so much for being here, good morning, good evening. >> Good afternoon. >> You've been running, doing so many sessions here, so, we're really glad that we get to have you on to help us wrap up our coverage. >> My pleasure, what better way to wrap up another amazing day at Cloud Foundry Summit than hanging out with you, Stu? >> Thanks, Abby, it's a pleasure. Look, really, I've said it a few times, but I mean it. One of the reasons I wanted to come here is, I get to talk to a bunch of users and they have great stories, so, it's always cool to talk to the startup doing something neat and different, but another thing, too, when you talk to the US Air Force and they talk about how they're doing drastic change, talk to T-Mobile, you talk to some of these bigger, older companies, and gosh, that's a bad word in the industry, right? But making some big changes, so, take a breath and tell us what your experience has been at the show so far. >> Well, I mean, you hit on my favorite part of the whole show, is getting to spend time with the community, but also the end users. What's so unique about Cloud Foundry Summit is half the attendees are end users. And it's so great to see them all come here and really be willing to put it all out there and get up on stage and talk about what they've done, how they got there, or hear them all fight about who's the more agile hundred-year-old company, which has been a funny conversation today. Allstate was chiming in that they were the young one in the group at 85 years old, so it's... But honestly, we get really caught up in the tech but hearing how people are using it and what they're doing and how it's changing their company is really I think the interesting story. If I'm a journalist, that's what I want to cover, because that's the interesting stuff. >> We had a media dinner and we're not supposed to share the details of them, but I love this discussion. This stuff isn't easy. We actually have the customers sharing the rewards, the challenges, the problems, well, working at a big company, change is definitely not easy. Working with some of this tech, it's not the simplest thing out there. We're working, there's lots of projects, there's lots of different interfaces there, but, still getting measurable great value out of what they're doing. To use an old term, moving the needle on what they're doing, so, it's exciting to see that. You've been in so many sessions, give us some highlights from, say, if you've got a couple of examples or things that, any customer story that you'd want to share. >> I mean, today, I heard a lot about Boeing. Boeing and the journey that they're on has been amazing to hear them talk about how they're changing their company, and even, in fact, they ask, all right, we're going to talk about this at Summit, but I don't want to talk about the tech. I don't want to talk about how we're using CICD, I don't want to talk about any of that. I want to talk about the culture change and having user after user say, I'm actually, want to get onstage and talk, but I don't want to talk about the tech, and that, I think, really shows the excitement and enthusiasm around the transformation process and what that means for them, and for me, as someone watching this outside, you're like, oh my god, this is amazing, and this is such a powerful story to really reflect the role technology has played in enabling that, but also the hard work that has to come into that. >> We often say that the technology is the easy part, it's the people and process stuff that'll be hard. The Foundation and this ecosystem and all the users that are involved, there's a lot of technical challenges, though, that are people working through, so, I wonder, do they underplay some of the technology things that they have to, I mean, learning new technologies, learning new skills, some of that is cultural, but, there is kind of that full spectrum that they have to get engaged with. >> Yeah, well, I just think that Cloud Foundry makes it easy (laughing) from the technology standpoint, because it really pulls a lot of things in together, but, collectively and particularly in open source, the opportunity exists for us to all move forward together. One of my big things I'm pushing for this year is interoperability, and continuing to let the technology evolve and taking advantage of new and innovative technologies, either alongside the platform or inside the platform, but really that's going to be a big focus and it was so great to hear from a lot of these end users, but that's important to them, too. >> Yeah, interoperability, you know, there are some that would look at this and they'd say, oh, they know Cloud Foundry because that thing that came out of VMware and there's this company, Pivotal, filed an S-1, they're going to go public, but, maybe talk a little bit about the ecosystem. There are so many solutions out there which don't yet have the Cloud Foundry branding on it but leverage the technologies in there. >> Yeah, it was really great to announce our eight certified distributions for 2018. We've had two new ones join SUSE Cloud Application Platform and, the most surprising one is Cloud.gov is now a certified distribution. Cloud.gov has done so much to bring digital transformation to the government, and so for them, and AT and F in particular, being able to offer up a platform like Cloud Foundry and the digital transformation initiatives around that, to federal agencies, is such a powerful story. They are literally changing our government, and hearing more and more stories like that have been really exciting, so to see that they now have a certified distribution, so regardless of what industry you're in, or what geo you're in, you have access to a certified distribution, the ability to run it on any cloud, for example, AliCloud is now, it's Cloud Foundry CPI is now available for AliCloud. You can run it on any cloud in the world and that is really showcasing that Cloud Foundry is not only leading the industry in terms of driving this change in these companies and with the technology but the ecosystem around it is continuing to grow and build. >> Maybe share a little bit, the tracks got kind of redone and there's some interesting tracks to kind of highlight, some of those focus areas that you had at the show this year. >> Yeah, for the first time ever, we had a government track. We had so many government use cases. You mentioned the Air Force earlier, AT and F. We have governments around the world that are running Cloud Foundry, so we added a government track. We had also a containers and serverless track. We actually added, last year we added an enterprise track, which is essentially users getting up on stage and talking about what they do. We added a whole track because we had so many submissions for that, and so it's really, again, an interesting opportunity to talk about the core technology and the platform, what's happening around that, but also more importantly how it's being used, and really being able to capture that is important for us. >> All right, the other kind of metric, if you look at the growth, is, when you talk about the ecosystem, there's, I believe it's the Foundry, which is the online marketplace. Speak a little bit to how that's been growing. >> Right, so we launched the Foundry last year in October at our summit in Basel. We launched in initially with 600 services. In short, it's an online marketplace for end users to find services, capabilities, and support, so it lists certified distributions, training partners, as well as technologies that are available that they could run on or alongside the platform and since October, we had now announced this week that we actually have over 4900 services in there now, so it's continuing to grow, but also, one thing I hadn't mentioned is it is our most highly trafficked page in our website, so it's continuing to drive the most traffic because end users care about it, but it's also really an area where we can showcase the breadth of the Cloud Foundry ecosystem. >> Yeah, I talked a little bit with Chip about this, but, there's not just one project, there's so many things getting involved. Maybe give us a little bit of the philosophy from the Foundation. What's the most important thing and how do you keep growing without sprawling? (laughing) >> Well, I think Cloud Foundry has always had really strong opinions about where we go and one of the things that we work, collectively work together on, is keeping a core shared vision, so there is a common core where the innovation continues to grow and happen, but allowing space and room for everyone to be able to differentiate from either different commercial go-to-market, or extensibility or extensions. For example, if you look at just our distributions alone, we've got one that focuses on federal government, we've got Pivotal Cloud Foundry, but we've got also an SAP cloud platform and really it's focusing on changing not only SAP customers, but also the way SAP thinks about software, and so seeing these different variations of the same core technology, is also a big driver of the inspiration, it's like, so many different perspectives around the table that really can drive and push the technology to do new and innovative things. >> All right, Abby, want to give the the final word. People that haven't been to the show, there's so much online. Any special things you'd want to call out, or final thoughts? >> Well, one, if you haven't been to the show, you should definitely come. We have another one coming up in October 11th and 12th in Basel, Switzerland, so if you've never been to Basel, it's a great way to come experience Summit for the first time. All the videos from all the sessions and key notes will be made available on YouTube usually within about a week, so anything that you missed if you were here, you can catch up there, and we're going to just keep talking about what we're doing and continuing to promote it and we'd love for more people to join us on the process. >> All right, well, Abby Kearns, always a pleasure to catch up with you. Thanks to the Foundation again for helping us bring this coverage, all of our content, of course, is always out there. It will be on theCUBE.net. Talking to many of the people in the Cloud Foundry ecosystem at many shows throughout the year, so, thanks, Abby, and the whole Foundation. A great lineup of customers, partners, and thought leaders in this space. Thanks to Brian and Alex for helping us do this coverage and be sure to check out all of our coverage on theCUBE.net. I'm Stu Miniman, thanks for watching theCUBE.

(bouncy electronic music) [Narrator] Live from Las Vegas, it's the CUBE. Covering InterConnect 2017 brought to you by IBM. >> Hey welcome back everyone, we are live in Las Vegas for IBM InterConnect 2017. This is the CUBE's coverage of IBM's Cloud and data show. I'm John Furrier, with my co-host Dave Vellante. Our next guest is Abby Kearns, Executive Director of Cloud Foundry Foundation. Welcome to the CUBE! >> Welcome, thank you! >> Thanks for joining us, so Cloud Foundry, you're new as the executive role, Sam had moved on to Microsoft? >> Abby: Google. >> Google, I'm sorry, Google, he was formerly at Microsoft, former Microsoft employee, but Google, Google Cloud Next was a recent show. >> Yeah. >> So, you're new. >> I'm new. >> John: To the reins but you're not new, new to the community. >> I've been a part of the community for several years prior to joining the foundation a year ago I was at Pivotal for a couple of years so I've been part of the Cloud Foundry community for several years and it's a technology that's near and dear to my heart and it's a community that I am very passionate about. >> And the emergence of Cloud Foundry if you think about it has really kind of changed the game it's really lifted all the boats, if you will, rising tide floats all boats. IBM uses it, you've got a lot of customers. Just go down the list of the notable folks working with Cloud Foundry. >> Well, look no further than those that are on our board and those that represent the strategic vision around the Cloud Foundry, so IBM, Pivotal, but, Dell EMC, and Cisco and SAP and VMware and Allianz and Swisscom. And of course, Pivotal. I think all of them really bring such a broad perspective to the table. But then broadening beyond that community, our community has grown so much. A lot of people don't realize that Cloud Foundry has only been an open-source project for just a little over two years, so January 2015 marked when it became an official open-source project. Prior to that it was part of Pivotal. And in that little-over-two years, we've grown to nearly 70 members in our community and are just excited to continue to grow and bring more perspectives to the table. >> So what has been the differences, a lot of people have been taking a different approach on for Bluemix, for instance, they have a good core at Cloud Foundry. Is it going the way you guys had thought as a community, that this was the plan all along? Because you see people really kind of making some good stuff out of the Cloud Foundry. Was that part of the plan, this open direction? >> Well I think part of the plan was really coalescing around the single vision of that abstraction And what's the whole vision of Cloud Foundry, it's to allow developers to create code faster. And whatever realm that takes. Our industry is evolving and it's evolving so quickly and exciting, all of these enterprise organizations that are becoming software companies. I mean how exciting is that? As we think about the abstraction that Cloud Foundry can provide for them and the automation it can provide, it allows them to focus on one thing and one thing only, creating code that changes their business. We're really focused myopically on ensuring that developers have the ability to quickly and easily create code and innovate quickly as an organization. >> So on the development side, sometimes standards can go fall down by forcing syntax or forcing certain things. You guys had a different approach, looking back now, what were the key things that were critical for Cloud Foundry to maintain its momentum? >> I think a couple of things. It's a complex distributed system but it is put together amazingly well. Quality was first and foremost, part of its origins. And it's continued to adhere to that quality and that control around the development process and around the release process. So Cloud Foundry as an open-source project is very much a governance by contribution. So we look for those in the organizations and different communities to be part of it and contribute. So we have the full-time committers that are basically doing this all day, every day, and then we have the contributors that are also part of the community providing feedback and value. >> And there was a big testimonial with American Airlines on stage, that's a big win. >> Abby: Yes, it is a big win. >> Give us some color on that deal. >> I can't give you any details on the deal that IBM has-- >> But that's a Cloud Foundry, IBM-- >> But it is Cloud Foundry, yes. >> You guys were part of the Bluemix thing? >> Yes. And American Airlines is a company that I have a lot of history with, They were a customer of mine for many years in the early 2000s, so I'm thrilled to see them innovating and taking advantage of a platform. >> So, help us unpack this conversation that's going on around PaaS, right? >> Some people say, "oh, PaaS is pase," but it's development tools and it's programming and it's a platform that you've created, so what do you make of that conversation? What implications does it have to your strategy and your ecosystem strategy? >> Well, I for one don't like the term PaaS anyway, so I'm happy to say PaaS is pase. Because I do think it's evolved, so when I talk about Cloud Foundry, I talk about it as a Cloud application platform. Because at the end of the day, our goal is to help organizations create code faster. The high degrees of automation, the abstraction that the platform brings to the table, it isn't just a platform, it is an enabler for that development. So we think about what that means, it's, can I create applications faster and do I have a proliferation of services to your ecosystem point that enable applications to grow and to scale and to change the way that organization works. Because it's a technology-enabled business transformation for many of these organizations. >> John: It's app-driven, too, that's the key to success. >> It's app-driven, which is why we talk so much about developers, is because that's the key, if I'm going to become a software company, what does that mean? I am writing code, and that code is changing the way I think about my business and my consumers. >> And the app landscape has certainly changed with UX creativity, but now you've got IoT, there's a real functional integration going on with the analog world going digital, it's like, "Whoa, "I've got all this stuff that's now instrumented "connected to the internet!" IoT, Internet of Things. That's going to be interesting, Cloud has to power that. >> I think it does, because what is IoT reliant on? Applications that take advantage of that data. That's what you're looking to gain, you're looking to have small applications streaming large amounts of data from sensors, be it from cars, or be it from a manufacturing plant, if you're thinking industrial IoT, so Cloud Foundry provides the platform for many of these applications to be developed, created, and scaled at the level that companies like GE, and Siemens, and others are looking to build out and tackle that IoT space. >> It's open, I mean we can all agree that Cloud Foundry's the most open platform to develop applications on, but developers have choices. You're seeing infrastructure as a service, plus you're seeing SAS kind of minus emerge. How should we be thinking about the evolution, you said earlier it evolved, where is it evolving to? Obviously you bet on open, good bet. Other more propriet... I don't even know what open is anymore sometimes (Abby laughs) >> But we can agree that Cloud Foundry's open. But how should we be thinking about the evolution going forward? >> Well that's the beauty of open, right? What is open-source, open-source brings together a diverse set of perspective and background to innovate faster. And that's where we are, we're seeing a lot of technology evolve. I mean, just think about all of the things that evolved the last two years. Where we've had technologies come up, some go down, but there's so much happening right now, because the time is now. For these companies that are trying to develop more applications, or trying to figure out ways to not only develop these applications, but develop them at scale and really grow those out and build those and IoT, and you're getting more data, and we're capturing those data and operationalizing that data and it comes back to one thing. Applications that can take advantage of that. And so I think there's the potential, as we build out and innovate both the ecosystem but the platform will naturally evolve and take advantage of those winds from these organizations that are driving this to scale. >> So scale is the linchpin. >> Abby: Yeah. >> If you think about traditional paths, environments, if I can use that term, they're limited in scale, and obviously simplicity. Is that another way to think about it? >> I think about it this way, the platform enables you to run fast. You're not running fast with scissors. You want to be able to run fast safely. And so it provides that abstraction and those guardrails so you can quickly iterate and develop and deploy code. If I look at what... HCSE as a company. They went from developing an application, it took them 35 people and nine months to create an app, right? And now with Cloud Foundry, they're able to do it with four people and six weeks. It changes the way you work as an organization. Just imagine as you scale that out, what that means. Imagine the changes that can bring in your organization when you're software-centric and you're customer-first and you're bringing that feedback loop in. >> And you guys do a lot of heavy lifting on behalf of the customer, but you're not hardening it to the point where they can't mold it and shape it to what they want is kind of what I'm-- >> No, we want to abstract away and automate as much as possible, the things you care about. Resiliency, auto-scaling, the ability to do security and compliance, because those are things you care about as an enterprise. Let's make that happen for you, but then give the control to the developer to self provision, to scale, to quickly deploy and iterate, do continuous delivery. All of those things that allow you to go from developing an app once a year to developing an app and iterating on that app constantly, all the time. >> So I've been wanting to ask you to kind of take a step back, and look at the community trends right now. PC Open Stack has a trajectory, it's becoming more of an infrastructure, as a service, kind of settling in there. That's gone through a lot of changes. Seeing a lot of growth in IoT, which we talked about. You're starting to see some movement in the open-source community. CNCF has got traction, The Linux Foundation, Cloud Native, you've got the Kubernetes, I call it the Cold War for orchestration going on right now so it's a really interesting time, microservices are booming. This is the holy grail for developers for the next gen. It's going to be awesome, like machine learning, everyone's getting intoxicated on that these days, so super cool things coming down the pike. >> For sure, I think we're in the coolest time. >> What's going on in the communities, is there any movement, is there trends, is there a sentiment among the developer communities that you see that you could... Any patterns developing around what people are gravitating to? >> I think developers want the freedom to create. They want the ability to create applications and see those come to fruition. I think a lot of things that were new and innovative a couple of years ago and even now, are becoming table stakes. For example, five years ago, having a mobile app as a bank was new and interesting and kind of fun. Now, it's table stakes. Are you going to go bank with a bank that doesn't have one? Are you going to bank with a bank that doesn't have it? It becomes table stakes or, who doesn't, if you don't have fraud detection which is basically event driven responses, right? And so you think about what table stakes are and what, as we think about the abstraction moving up, that's really where it's going to get interesting. >> But open-source community, is it going to move to these new ground, what I'm trying to get at is to see what's happening, what's the trend in the developer community. What's hot, what's fashionable. Is there new projects popping up that you could share that you think is cool and interesting? >> Well they're all cool and interesting. >> John: You'd rather not comment. (laughs) >> I think they're all cool and interesting, I think, you know, CNCF is a sister organization underneath The Linux Foundation. >> John: They kind of inherited that from Kub Con though. Kubernetes Con. >> Yeah, I think they're doing interesting things. I think any organizations that's promoting Cloud Native application architecture and the value of that, we all deserve to be part of the same conversation because to your point earlier, a rising tide lifts all boats. And if every organizations is doing Cloud Native application architectures and Cloud Native solutions, it's going to be super interesting. >> We just had STRAD at Duke, we ran our own event last week called Big Data SV, and it's very clear to us that the big data world industry and Cloud are coming together and the forcing function is machine learning, IoT, and then AI is the appeal, that's the big trend that's kind of, puts a mental model around but IoT is driving this data and the Cloud horsepower is forcing this to move faster. It seems to be very accelerated. >> But, it also enables so much, I mean if you can operationalize this data that you're aggregating and turn it into actionable apps that do things for your business, save money, improve logistics, reach your users better and faster, you start to see the change and the shift that that can bring. You have the data married with the apps, married with the in point sensors and all of a sudden this gets to be a really interesting evolution of technology. >> So what's your hundred day plan, well you're in the hundred day plan already. So what's your plan for this year as new Executive Director for Cloud Foundry, what's on the agenda, what's your top three things you're going to chip away at this year for objectives? >> Developers, developers, developers, does that count as top three? >> More, more, more? Increase the developer count? (laughs) >> Just really, reaching out to the developers and ensuring that they're able to be successful in Cloud Foundry. So I think you'll hear more from us in the next couple of weeks about that. But, ensuring-- >> John: The proof points, basically? >> The proof points, but just ensuring they can be successful and ensuring that scale is affable for them, and then really, our summits are even changing. We've actually added developer tracks to our summit, to make them a place not only where you can learn about Cloud Foundry, but also where you can work with other developers and learn from them and learn about specific languages, but also, how to enable those into Cloud Native application architectures and I think our goal this year is to really enrich that development community and build that pipeline and help fill those gaps. >> And celebrate the wins like the American Airlines of the world, and as IBM and others are successful, then it gets to be less... You don't want to have cognitive dissonance as a developer, that's the worst thing, developers want to make sure they're on a good bus with good people. >> You've obviously got some technology titans behind you, IBM the most prominent, I would say, but obviously guys like VMware, and Cisco, and others, but you've also got [Interference] organizations, guys like Allianz, VW, Allstate I think was early-on in the program. >> JPMC, Citibank. >> Yeah, I shouldn't have started, 'cause I know I'd leave some out, but you're the Executive Director, so you have to fill in the gaps. That's somewhat unique, in a consortium like this. Somewhat, but that many is somewhat unique. Is there more traction there? What's their motivation? >> Abby: As a user? >> Yeah. >> Well, to your earlier point, we're an open-source, right? And what's the value, if I'm an enterprise and I'm looking to take advantage of a platform, but also an open-source platform, open-source allows me to be part of that conversation. I can be a contributor, I can be part of the direction, I can influence where it's going and I think that is a powerful sentiment, for many of these organizations that are looking to evolve and become more software-centric, and this is a good way for them to give back and be part of that momentum. >> And Cloud's exploding, more open-source is needed, it's just a great mission. Congratulations on the new job, and good luck this year. We'll keep in touch, and certainly see you at the Cloud Foundry Summit, that's in San Fransisco again this year? >> Santa Clara, June 13th through 15th. >> John: So every year, you guys always have the fire code problem. (laughs) >> Well I think I'm going to go on record now and officially say this, this will be our last year there, which I think everyone's excited about, 'cause I think we're all over Santa Clara right now. (laughs) >> Alright, well, we'll see you there. Abby Kearns, Executive Director of Cloud Foundry Foundation, here inside the CUBE, powering the Cloud, this is the CUBE's coverage of IBM InterConnect 2017. Stay with us, more coverage after this short break. (bouncy electronic music)

>> Voiceover: Live from San Francisco, it's The Cube covering DevNet Create 2017 brought to you by Cisco. >> Welcome back everyone. Live in San Francisco, this is exclusive Cube coverage of DevNet Create, Cisco's inaugural event where they're going out into the devops world into the community ingratiating and donating a million dollars for hardware, really taking their DevNet developer program to the next level, really creating an open developer devops ethos. Coverage two days. I'm John Furrier with my co-host, Peter Burris, head of wikibon.com research, also head of research SiliconANGLE Media. Our next guest is Abby Kearns, Executive director of Cloud Foundry. Welcome back to The Cube. Good to see you. >> Always a pleasure. >> I'm excited to chat with you for multiple reasons. One, you've got a hot product but at Dell EMC world more than ever you start to see the emergence of Cloud Foundry coalescing, not consolidating, coalescing the stakeholders. >> Abby: Yeah. >> And so you start to see multi-cloud starting to develop as the swim lane or a path, certainly hybrid cloud is hot. Cloud Foundry is kind of interesting right now. So, congratulations. Give us the update. What's going on? Obviously, you've got a spring in your step. What's happening? >> Well, not to be biased, but I feel like Cloud Foundry's always been interesting. >> John: Well, from a growth standpoint, now more than ever. >> Yeah, we started talking about multi-cloud a year ago. So, it's really interesting to see it really taking form in the industry where people are like, "Yes." People don't want to be locked into a single cloud. Yes, they want to have choice. And yes, they want to be able to take their workloads and move them anywhere and public cloud, right now, has gotten such amazing traction. And they're coming up with interesting things. You know, GCP is really coming into it's own and Azure's really starting to take shape. I think there's a lot of potential for a lot of features and services to really be available. >> The thing I like talking to you about is ... Talking with you is because you're in an area that is misunderstood early on. You've been beating on this drum, we've talked about this before. Andy, Jessie and I had similar conversations about this, but Amazon, how they were misunderstood in the beginning. People were dismissing it. And so there's always a tipping point. The Cube's the same way. "What do you guys do?" And we keep on ... And then people figure it out. That's kind of when the rest of the world, mainstream starts to get it and in particular, these are the model. What was the tipping point for you because I know that you had this same vision. What's the tipping point now? Why are we now is it happening? Because of the pressure? Is it because now the tools are coming to the table? What's the forcing function that's taking Cloud Foundry from this alternative approach to a viable, scalable opportunity? >> Well, I think it's always been viable. I think where we are, though, is we're seeing users starting to get traction on digital transformation. And I know digital transformation, everyone's like, "God, not that term again. We're so tired of it." But, it's true. It's more of these enterprise organizations are, "I'm now a software company," or, "I'm now competing against Airbnb or Tesla." You know, the landscape is changing and so as they realize they become software companies and they need to develop software, they're investing more in developers and development and they're like, "Oh, well, how do I do that quickly? How do I really focus on that?" Because turns out really investing in a lot of other ancillary aspects isn't core to my business. It's not changing who I am. And so investing in technology, in software in particular, allows you to differentiate your business. And so a platform like Cloud Foundry really abstracts the way an infrastructure automates that as much as possible, so the developers have the freedom to create. And that's really what's going to differentiate businesses that are becoming software companies. >> So, as you think about the developer, break it down where you think it's going to be in about five years. Because we're here at the developer conference and most of these people are folks with network expertise or folks with traditional software development expertise coming into the world where we're going to build distributed applications. Very, very important stuff. But as you think about the characteristics or how the demographics of what the developer is, how much is it going to be the professional hard-core developer, how much of it is going to be citizen development? Where do you think all this goes in five years as we start to see how all this new software gets created to serve all the business needs that are on the horizon of a digital world? >> Well, my opinion is that eventually everyone is going to be a developer of some type, whether it's taking advantage of business logic or operationalizing outcomes from machine learning or automotive AI, just taking advantage of that. But in five years, I think, where we are today, the technology is definitely growing faster than user's capability to adopt it all. So, there is a growing gap there. >> And use cases are emerging as well. So, another dimension to that complexity is new devices are connected. >> Exactly, so I think there's going to be an exponential over the next couple of years of growth in terms of the technology, what it enables, why it enables, and how the users are adopting it. Because I think we all theorize about what users could do and will do, but at the end of the day, if these large enterprise organizations start actually putting the focus and the force behind development, imagine what they can come up with. You know, look at what GE's doing with Predix, or SAP is doing with their cloud platform and think about the investment around those applications and the ability to influence where we go. You know, seven years ago we wouldn't have predicted the iPhone would be the tool that it is today. Or the iPad or the way that we actually make use of these as platforms because of the applications. The applications have really driven the innovation around that and I think we'll start seeing that the applications and the use cases really driving the innovation leaps. >> Talk about the challenges and opportunities that digital transformation has for business that are trying to get there and there's obviously different business profiles, startup, fast growing, public company, I mean, Ford. There's a customer of yours I know, I don't want to get into the whole Mark Fields thing. There's challenges at different levels of the organizations. So, to implement devops, at the end of the day, Ford's trying to get better cars, not necessarily a better cloud. Cloud enables them to do things. So, companies have to look at this and have a journey. What is the part that you see that companies are doing well from a journey standpoint and how are they laying out that digital transformation with Cloud Foundry? >> Well, I think more than a journey, they have to have a clear vision, a clear idea where they want to go. Because at the end of the day, technology shouldn't be the goal. Technology should be the enabler to achieve that goal. And ensuring that companies can maintain that clear vision, and really lead from the top with that vision, because, at the end of the day, we talk about digital transformation. Technology is a topic I talk about a lot because, obviously, Cloud Foundry's focusing on the technology piece, but the cultural shift, what it enables is really what's both critical, but also the most difficult. These organizations are trying to transform and become software companies, are also fundamentally changing their business model, their organization, and the way they leverage technology and that's a huge shift for many of these organizations. >> Actually businesses, we were talking before the camera how companies should look at that process because you have to kind of invest and it's not just the old days, you buy a general purpose software stack. Then the suppliers took care of it, say Oracle, whoever. Hey, they supply it, they turnkey, there's some TCO, total cost of ownership involved. I get that. But now, with developers, you're talking about training, you're talking about devops, you're talking about real investment. >> Restructuring, hiring, retention. It changes fundamentally the way you think about everything. How do you hire developers? How do you hire cloud native developers? How do you retain talent? How do you restructure teams? When we talk about two-pizza teams or cross-functional alignment, what that's really saying is, "Hey, I need you to rethink your entire org structure and the way that you incentivize people and motivate people." >> John: And fund it. >> And funding is like, you know, gone are the days of give me your five year plan and we'll do your capex and OPEX allocations. But it needs to be more iterative because you're encouraging agile. You're saying fell fast or iterate more. You're really saying I want you to take ideas and iterate on them, get them out the door, and then maybe that doesn't work. Maybe we try again. But the idea is to continue to iterate and innovate on that. >> Abby, what trends are you seeing in terms of pattern recognition as you go out and evangelize and support your customers with Cloud Foundry? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder depending on how you implement your cloud, IBM and others, the customers. What's the pattern that's consistent across the Cloud Foundry ecosystem that's happening right now, that's maybe different from a few years ago that's emerging? >> Well, to me, the Cloud Foundry users are key. I spend a lot of time talking to them because, for me, it's interesting. We can theorize about the technology and where it should go, but at the end of the day, how you're using it and what you're doing with it is the most important, one might say. >> John: And what are they doing? What are some examples? >> They are really starting to get traction. I mean, Comcast is a great example. The amount of traction they've gained. They have over 1000 developers working on Cloud Foundry right now. Over 10,000 applications running on it. They're doing 180 million transactions per day. That is huge. And, for them, it's not just the amount of investment they've got in it, but it's also how it's transforming the way they work. How much more productive they are and how getting better ideas out to the hands of customers. It's changing the way that they think about customers. Improving the way that they connect to their customers and that's the fundamental shift. >> Have you observed any, because we've, again, been funding the present creation of these events, especially inaugural events like DevNet Create for Cisco, which is to put their toes in the water, but they're committed to it. CubeCon, we saw that emerge. We saw Cloud Native emerge back in the 2008 timeframe with The Cube. Open Stack, obviously, has trajectory. Are you seeing a community expansion? Certainly there's expansion of the community in general. But we're seeing our Cube alumni fans here. I saw Patrick Riley earlier. I saw Lisa Marie. There's not one community any more. There's a series of new communities. OpenStack is one, you got Cloud Native Foundation, or Compute ... CNCF, you've got Cloud Foundry. There seems to be kind of like a flowing set of people in the community. What's happening in the community layers. I mean, it's all good. Does it mean anything? >> Yeah, it means open source is amazing. Because, at the end of the day, that's what's amazing about open source. We can do work with other projects in other communities. We have a great relationship with OpenStack. We have a great relationship with our sister CNCF. In fact the open service broker API project that we announced last year was a way to really take the best of great technology and make it available across other platforms and communities. Because at the end of the day, when we're talking about open source, when we're talking about bringing together diverse perspectives, diverse people to innovate more. So, collaborative R&D is where open source can really drive real value. >> It's an expansion of the community of open source. By the way, I will note that we cover, Hugh, Peter we talked about open source that have gone public. Cloud Air, MuleSoft, the list goes on and on. There's multiple new IPOs. Since RedHat and Hortonworks started that wave, so real companies. >> Real companies doing real things on open source. >> Let me push on this open source concept really quickly because it's very clear that it's been a successful model. But open source has been most successful where the marketplace has a very clear convention of what is being open source. For example, we knew what a UNIX operating system was. LINUX is an open source option. Came very clear. When you think about big data and Hadoop, the use cases of big data, the use cases associated with very complex analytics, not as clear. So, we get a lot of open source stuff that's being created that kind of marginally improves things. How is the open source world through companies like Cloud Air that can provide some leadership going to evolve to get more focus on use cases and how we're going to apply this through open source innovation, as opposed to just creating software that is defined in terms of other open source software around it? What are your thoughts on that? >> Well, I think, going back to the point about diverse participation, that's where the real innovation's happening. So, the innovation isn't really happening at a single company or a single individual. It's happening when you bring together a bunch of individuals and a bunch of different organizations with a bunch of different perspectives. Because that's where you really start to see value. Because you're thinking outside of the box that you know. When you start thinking outside of your known use case, your known customer base and start bringing in other perspectives, that's where you're really able to push the envelope a little bit more and a little bit faster and also build and accelerated ecosystem around that quickly of people that want to participate and commit to driving that and continue to drive that innovation. >> That is recruiting opportunity for the companies. I mean, we were just talking about Cisco being closer to networking side. This is an opportunity to have a foray into innovation, but also recruiting, getting some new blood in. >> What we found in our research that developers actually list that as one of their driving factors on whether or not they're going to join a company. What is their level of participation in an open source project because they want to be able to be part of something bigger. They want to be able to contribute and be able to influence where that technology is going and that is power. >> You're starting to see on GitHub on about pages companies on the executive masthead. Check out my GitHub, see what my code ... Again, this is the badge of honor like in the gaming world where you see how many merit badges you got or guns you've acquired, depending which game you do. But in a way, this is now really the resumes, not the static LinkedIn and it's like what code have you done, what communities are you in. It almost really is a testament. >> I think it's exciting because it's saying that we not only care about technology, but we care about where it's going and that's real exciting both from an open source standpoint, but also as a developer and as a business leader. That should be exciting because you're now able to influence the technology. >> Okay, final question for you Abby. What does this event mean to you? Obviously Cisco is a new event, inaugural event, very cool, very humble, very well one by Suzy and the team, but they have a DevNet Create Cisco Developer Program. Networking guys, we know there. What does this mean, in your opinion, in terms of Cisco's statement to the industry? >> I think any program that really wants to bring developers together and give them an opportunity to collaborate, and develop more, I think it's amazing. That's something that we strive for at Cloud Foundry as well in our event coming up in a couple of weeks, which I think you'll be at. >> John: We'll be there, yep. >> It's also we're trying to mimic something similar, giving an opportunity for developers to come together, share ideas, share knowledge and contribute and work together on common projects. >> Final, final question since you brought up the event. Give us a quick preview of what to expect at the Cloud Foundry Summit in San Francisco. >> Yes, so in a couple of weeks we will host Cloud Foundry Summit North America. There's some announcements that you should pay attention to. >> John: Come on, tell us! >> Some really exciting announcements. >> Put the dots out there, we'll connect them. >> Some new new members that we're excited about joining as well as some new technology announcements. But more than that, it's our first time. We've really been rejiggering the structure of the event and we like to think of ourselves of an agile foundation. And we wanted to encourage more developers to be there, so, we're offering developer language track, so with Node and Cloud Native Java and SAP's got a track. But more than that we're also going to be announcing general availability of the Cloud Foundry Certified Developer. So, we're going to offer training on site and certification on site for the first time. So, the idea is to make this a place for developers to come and share ideas and network, but also learn more about not just Cloud Foundry, but cloud native best practices. >> So, a confab with all the bells and whistles, plus now the learning tracks to make it kind of a hands-on event. Abby Kearns, executive director of Cloud Foundry here at Cisco's inaugural DevNet Create events, Cube's coverage. I'm John Furrier with Peter Burris. Stay with us and check out Cloud Foundry Summit in a few weeks. I'm John Furrier with Peter Burris. We'll be right back. (techno music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from Las Vega, it's theCUBE. Covering InterConnect 2017. Brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome back everyone. We are live in Las Vegas where IBM InterConnect 2017. It's theCUBE's coverage of IBM's Cloud Show, Cloud and Data Show. I'm John Furrier, and my Co-Host Dave Vellante. Our next guest is Abby Kearns, Executive Director of Cloud Foundry Foundation. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Welcome, thank you. >> Thanks for joining us. So, Cloud Foundry, you're new as the executive role. Sam had moved on to Microsoft. >> Abby: Google. >> Google, I'm sorry, Google. He was formerly at Microsoft. Former Microsoft employee. But at Google, Google Cloud Next was a recent show. So you're new. >> I'm new. >> John: To the reins, but you're not new in the community. >> I've been a part of the community for several years. Prior to joining the Foundation a year ago, I was at Pivotal for a couple of years. So I've been part of the Cloud Foundry community for several years and it's a technology that's near and dear to my heart. And it's a community that I am very passionate about. >> And the emergence of Cloud Foundry, I think about it, it's really kind of changed the game. It's really lifted all the boats, if you will, rising tide floats all boats. IBM uses it, you've got a lot of customers. Just go down the list of the notable folks working with Cloud Foundry. >> Well, I look no further than those that are on our Board and those that represent the strategic vision around the Cloud Foundry, so IBM, Pivotal, but DellEMC and Cisco and SAP and VMware and Allianz and Swisscom and, you know, of course Pivotal. And I think all of them really bring such a broad perspective to the table. But, then broadening beyond that community, our community has grown so much since. So, a lot of people don't realize that Cloud Foundry has only been an open source project for just a little over two years. So, January 2015 marked when it become an official open source project. Prior to that it was part of Pivotal. And in that a little over two years, we've grown to nearly 70 members in our community. And our disk x high continued to grow, and bring more perspectives to the table. >> So, what has been the differences. A lot of people have taken a different approach, on. For Bluemix, for instance, they have good core at Cloud Foundry. Is it going the way you guys had thought, as a community that this was the plan all along? Because you see people really kind of making some good stuff out of the Cloud Foundry. Was that part of the plan? This open direction? >> Well, I think part of the plan was really coalescing around a single vision of that abstraction. And what's the whole vision of Cloud Foundry? It's to make, allow developers to create code faster. In whatever realm that takes. And our industry is evolving and it's evolving so quickly, and exciting, all of these organizations. These enterprise organizations that are becoming software companies. And how, I mean, how exciting is that? As we think about the abstraction that Cloud Foundry can provide for them, and the automation it can provide and allows them to focus on one thing, and one thing only, creating code that changes their business. So, we're really focused myopically on ensuring the developers have the ability to quickly and easily create code and innovate quickly as an organization. >> So, on the development side. I mean sometimes standards can go, fall down by forcing syntax or, you know, forcing certain things. You guys had a different approach. Looking back now, what were the key things that were critical for Cloud Foundry to maintain its momentum? >> I think a couple of things. You know, obviously, it's a complex distributed system, but it's put together amazingly well. Quality was first and foremost, part of its origins. And it's continued to adhere to that quality and that control around the development process, and around the release process. So, Cloud Foundry as an open source project is very much a governance by contribution. So we look for those in the organizations and different communities to be part of it, and contribute and so we have the full time committers. That are basically doing this all day, every day. And we have the contributors that are also part of the community providing feedback and value. >> And there was a big testimonial of American Air Lines on stage. That's a big win. >> Abby: Yes, it is a big win. >> John: Give some color on that deal. >> I can't give you any details on the deal that IBM has. >> But that's a Cloud Foundry, IBM. >> But it is Cloud Foundry, yes. >> You guys were part of the Bluemix thing. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> And American Airlines is a company that I have a lot of history with. They were a customer of mine for many years in the early 2000s, so I'm thrilled to see them innovating, and taking advantage of a platform. >> So, help us unpack this conversation that's going on around PaaS, right. Some people say, oh PaaS is passe. But, it's development tools and it's programming. And it's a platform that you've created. So, what do you make of that conversation? What is it, what implications does it have to your strategy and your ecosystem strategy? >> Well, I for one don't like the term Paas anyways. So, I'm happy to say, PaaS is passe. Because I do think it's evolved. So, when I talk about Cloud Foundry, I talk about it as a cloud application platform. Because at the end of the day, our goal is to help organizations create code faster. You know, the high degrees of automation, the abstraction that the platform brings to the table, isn't just a platform, it is an enabler for that development. So we think about what that means. It's can I create applications faster? Do I have proliferation of services, to your ecosystem point, that enable those applications to be, to grow and to scale, and to change the way that organization works? Because it's a technology enabled business transformation for many of these organizations. >> John: It's app driven too, that's the key to success. >> It's app driven, which is why we talk so much about developers, is because that's the key. If I'm going to become a software company, what does that mean? I am writing code, and that code is changing the way I think about my business, and my consumers. >> And the app landscape has certainly changed with UX creativity, but now you've got IoT, there's a real functional integration going on with the analog world going digital. It's like whoa, I've gotten all this stuff that's now instrumented connected to the internet. IoT, Internet of Things. That's going to be interesting. Cloud has to power that. >> I think it does, because what is IoT reliant on? Applications that take advantage of that data. I mean that's what you're looking to gain. You're looking to have small applications streaming large amounts of data from sensors, be it from cars or be it from a manufacturing plant, if you're thinking industrial IoT. So Cloud Foundry provides the platform for many of these applications to be developed, created, and scaled. At the level that companies like GE and Siemens and others are looking to build out and tackle that IoT space. >> It's open. I mean we can all agree that Cloud Foundry's the most open platform to develop applications on. But, you're. Developers have choices. >> Yeah. >> You're seeing, you know, infrastructure as a service, plus, and you're seeing, SaaS kind of minus emerge. How should we be thinking about the evolution. You said earlier it evolved. Where is it evolving to? Obviously you've bet on open. Good bet, all right. Other, more proprietary. I don't even know what open is anymore, sometimes. (laughter) But, we can agree that Cloud Foundry is open. >> We're open. >> But how should we be thinking about the evolution going forward? >> Well, that's the beauty of open, right. Like, what is open source? Open source brings together a diverse set of perspectives, and background to innovate faster. And that's where we are. We're seeing a lot of technology evolve. I mean, just think about all the things that have evolved in the last two years. Where we've had technologies come up, some go down, but there is so much happening right now, because the time is now. For these companies that are trying to develop more applications and are trying to figure out ways not only to develop these applications, but develop them as scale, and really grow those out and build those, and IoT, and you're getting more data. We're having, capturing those data, and operationalizing that data. And it comes back to one thing. Applications that can take advantage of that. And so I think there is the potential as we build out and innovate both the ecosystem, but the platform will naturally evolved and take advantage of those wins from these organizations that are driving this to scale. >> So scale is the lynch pin, right? And if you think about traditional PaaS environments, if I can use that term, they're limited in scale and obviously simplicity. Is that another way to think about it? >> Well, I think the platform. I think about it this way. The platform enables you to run fast. You know, you're not running fast with scissors. You want to be able to run fast safely. So, it provides that abstraction and those guardrails so you can quickly iterate and develop and deploy code. If I look at what let's do HCSC is a company. They went from developing an application. It took them 35 people and nine months to create an app, right? Now, with Cloud Foundry, they're able to do it with four people in six weeks. It changes the way you work as an organization. Now, just imagine as you scale that out, what that means. And imagine the changes that can bring in your organization. When you're software centric, and you're customer first, and you're bringing that feedback loop in. >> Now, you guys do a lot of heavy lifting on behalf of the customer, but you're not hardening it. Hardening to the point where they can't mold it and shape it to what they want. That's kind of what I'm. >> No, we want to give. We want to abstract away and automate as much as possible for things you care about. Resiliency, auto-scaling, the ability to do security and compliance, 'cause those are things you care about as an enterprise. But, let's get that, let's make that happen for you, but then give the control to the developer to self-provision, to scale, to completely deploy and iterate. Do continuous delivery. All of those things that allow you to go from developing an app once a year to developing an app and iterating on that app constantly all the time. >> So Abby, I want to ask you, kind of take a step back. And look at the community trends right now. You see Open Stack has trajectory, it's becoming more an infrastructure as a service. Settling in there. That's gone through a lot of changes. Seeing a lot of growth in IoT which we talked about. You starting to see some movement in the open source community, CNCF has got traction, the Linux Foundation, Cloud native you've got Kubernetes. I call it the Cold War for orchestration, you know, going on right now, and it's. So it's really interesting time. Microservices are booming. This is the Holy Grail for developers for the next gen. It's going to be awesome. Machine learning. Everyone's getting intoxicated on that these days. So, super cool things coming down the pike. >> For sure, I think we're in the coolest time. >> What's going on in the communities? Is there any movement, is there trends, and is there a sentiment among the developer communities that you see that you could. Any patterns developing around what people are gravitating to? >> I think developers want the freedom to create. They want the ability to create applications and see those come to fruition. And I think. I think a lot of things that were new and innovative a couple of years ago, and even now, are becoming table stakes. For example, five years ago, having a mobile app as a bank was new and interesting and kind of fun. Now, it's table stakes. Are you going to go bank with a bank that doesn't have one? Are you going to bank with a bank that doesn't have it? It becomes table stakes. Or who doesn't, if you don't have fraud detection, which is basically event driven responses, right. So, you think about what table stakes are, and what, as we think about the abstraction moving up, that's really where it's going to get interesting. >> Yeah, but open source communities are going to move to these new ground. What I'm trying to get at is to see what's happening, what's the trend in the developer community? What's hot, what's fashionable? Is there new projects popping up that you could share that you think is cool and interesting? >> Well, they're all cool and interesting. >> John: You'd rather not comment. >> (laugh) I think they're all cool and interesting. I think you know, CNCF is a sister organization underneath the Linux Foundation. I, you know. >> John: They kind of inherit that from KubeCon, Kubernetes Con. >> Yeah, I think they're doing interesting things. I think any organization that's promoting cloud native application architecture and the value of that, you know, we all deserve to be part of the same conversation, because to your point earlier, a rising tide lifts all boats. And if every organization is doing cloud native application architectures, and cloud native solutions, it's going to be super interesting. >> I mean we certainly were just at Strata Hadoop, we ran our own event last week called Big Data SV, and it's very clear to us that the big data world and industry and cloud are coming together, and the forcing function is machine learning, IoT and then AI is the, you know, appeal. That's the big trend that kind of puts a mental model around it. But, IoT is driving this data and the cloud horsepower is forcing this to move faster. It seems to be very accelerated. >> But, it also enables so much. I mean, if you can operationalize this data that you're aggregating and turn it into actionable apps that do things for your business, save money, improve logistics, reach your users better and faster, you start to see the change and the shift that that can bring. You have the data married with the apps married with the endpoint sensors, and all of the sudden, this gets to be a really interesting evolution of technology. >> All right, so what's your 100 day plan. Well, you're already in a 100 day plan already. So what's your plan for this year? As new Executive Director for Cloud Foundry, what's on the agenda, what's your top three thing you're going to chip away at this year for objectives? >> Developers, developers, developers. Does that count as top three? >> More, more, more. (laughter) Increase of developer count. >> Just really, reaching out to developers and ensuring that they're able to be successful in Cloud Foundry. So I think you'll hear more from us in the next couple of weeks about that. But, >> John: So proof points basically. >> The proof points, but just ensuring they can be successful. Ensuring that scale is affable for them. And then really our summits are even changing. We have actually added developer tracks to our summits to make them a place not only where you can learn about Cloud Foundry, but also where you can work with other developers and learn from them, and learn about specific languages. But also, how to enable those into cloud native application architecture. And I think our goal this year was to really enrich that development community, and build that pipeline and help fill those gaps. >> And celebrate the wins like American Airlines of the world, and as IBM and others are successful, then it gets to be less. You don't want to have cognitive dissonance as a developer, that's the worst thing that developers want to make sure they're on a good bus. To you know, with good people. >> Well, you've got, you've obviously got some technology titans behind you. IBM, you know, the most prominent, I would say. But obviously, guys like VMware and Cisco and others, but you're also got a number of practitioner organization. Guys like Allianz. >> Abby: Allianz, yeah. >> VW, Allstate I think was early on in the program. >> JPMC, City Bank. >> Yeah, I don't want to. I shouldn't have started, 'cause I know I'd leave some out. (laughter) You're the Executive Director, so you have to fill in the gaps. But so, that's somewhat unique in a consortium like this. Somewhat, but that many is somewhat unique. Is there more traction there? What's their motivation in your. >> Abby: As a user? >> Yeah. >> Well, to your other point. We're an open source, right. What's the value? Me, if I'm an enterprise, and I'm looking to take advantage of a platform, but also an open source platform. Open source allows me to be part of that conversation. I could be a contributor, I could be part of the direction. I can influence where it's going. And I think that is a powerful sentiment for many of these organizations that are looking to evolve and become more software-centric, and this is a good way for them to give back and be part of that momentum. >> Yeah, and cloud's exploding. More open source is needed. It's just a great, great mission. Congratulations on the new job, and good luck this year. We'll keep in touch. >> Thank you. >> John: And certainly see you at the Cloud Foundry Summit. That's in San Francisco again this year? >> Santa Clara. June 13th through 15th. >> So every year you guys always have the fire code problem. (laughter) >> Well, I think, and I'm going to go on record now, and officially say this, this will be our last year there. Which I think everyone's excited about, because I think we're all over Santa Clara right now. (laughter) >> All right, well we'll see you there. Abby Kearns, Executive Director of Cloud Foundry Foundation. Here inside theCUBE, power in the cloud. This is theCUBE's coverage of IBM InterConnect 2017. Stay with us, more coverage after this short break. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back, everyone, to theCUBE's coverage here live on the floor at AWS re:MARS 2022. I'm John Furrier, host for theCUBE. Great event, machine learning, automation, robotics, space, that's MARS. It's part of the re-series of events, re:Invent's the big event at the end of the year, re:Inforce, security, re:MARS, really intersection of the future of space, industrial, automation, which is very heavily DevOps machine learning, of course, machine learning, which is AI. We have Luis Ceze here, who's the CEO co-founder of OctoML. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you very much for having me in the show, John. >> So we've been following you guys. You guys are a growing startup funded by Madrona Venture Capital, one of your backers. You guys are here at the show. This is a, I would say small show relative what it's going to be, but a lot of robotics, a lot of space, a lot of industrial kind of edge, but machine learning is the centerpiece of this trend. You guys are in the middle of it. Tell us your story. >> Absolutely, yeah. So our mission is to make machine learning sustainable and accessible to everyone. So I say sustainable because it means we're going to make it faster and more efficient. You know, use less human effort, and accessible to everyone, accessible to as many developers as possible, and also accessible in any device. So, we started from an open source project that began at University of Washington, where I'm a professor there. And several of the co-founders were PhD students there. We started with this open source project called Apache TVM that had actually contributions and collaborations from Amazon and a bunch of other big tech companies. And that allows you to get a machine learning model and run on any hardware, like run on CPUs, GPUs, various GPUs, accelerators, and so on. It was the kernel of our company and the project's been around for about six years or so. Company is about three years old. And we grew from Apache TVM into a whole platform that essentially supports any model on any hardware cloud and edge. >> So is the thesis that, when it first started, that you want to be agnostic on platform? >> Agnostic on hardware, that's right. >> Hardware, hardware. >> Yeah. >> What was it like back then? What kind of hardware were you talking about back then? Cause a lot's changed, certainly on the silicon side. >> Luis: Absolutely, yeah. >> So take me through the journey, 'cause I could see the progression. I'm connecting the dots here. >> So once upon a time, yeah, no... (both chuckling) >> I walked in the snow with my bare feet. >> You have to be careful because if you wake up the professor in me, then you're going to be here for two hours, you know. >> Fast forward. >> The average version here is that, clearly machine learning has shown to actually solve real interesting, high value problems. And where machine learning runs in the end, it becomes code that runs on different hardware, right? And when we started Apache TVM, which stands for tensor virtual machine, at that time it was just beginning to start using GPUs for machine learning, we already saw that, with a bunch of machine learning models popping up and CPUs and GPU's starting to be used for machine learning, it was clear that it come opportunity to run on everywhere. >> And GPU's were coming fast. >> GPUs were coming and huge diversity of CPUs, of GPU's and accelerators now, and the ecosystem and the system software that maps models to hardware is still very fragmented today. So hardware vendors have their own specific stacks. So Nvidia has its own software stack, and so does Intel, AMD. And honestly, I mean, I hope I'm not being, you know, too controversial here to say that it kind of of looks like the mainframe era. We had tight coupling between hardware and software. You know, if you bought IBM hardware, you had to buy IBM OS and IBM database, IBM applications, it all tightly coupled. And if you want to use IBM software, you had to buy IBM hardware. So that's kind of like what machine learning systems look like today. If you buy a certain big name GPU, you've got to use their software. Even if you use their software, which is pretty good, you have to buy their GPUs, right? So, but you know, we wanted to help peel away the model and the software infrastructure from the hardware to give people choice, ability to run the models where it best suit them. Right? So that includes picking the best instance in the cloud, that's going to give you the right, you know, cost properties, performance properties, or might want to run it on the edge. You might run it on an accelerator. >> What year was that roughly, when you were going this? >> We started that project in 2015, 2016 >> Yeah. So that was pre-conventional wisdom. I think TensorFlow wasn't even around yet. >> Luis: No, it wasn't. >> It was, I'm thinking like 2017 or so. >> Luis: Right. So that was the beginning of, okay, this is opportunity. AWS, I don't think they had released some of the nitro stuff that the Hamilton was working on. So, they were already kind of going that way. It's kind of like converging. >> Luis: Yeah. >> The space was happening, exploding. >> Right. And the way that was dealt with, and to this day, you know, to a large extent as well is by backing machine learning models with a bunch of hardware specific libraries. And we were some of the first ones to say, like, know what, let's take a compilation approach, take a model and compile it to very efficient code for that specific hardware. And what underpins all of that is using machine learning for machine learning code optimization. Right? But it was way back when. We can talk about where we are today. >> No, let's fast forward. >> That's the beginning of the open source project. >> But that was a fundamental belief, worldview there. I mean, you have a world real view that was logical when you compare to the mainframe, but not obvious to the machine learning community. Okay, good call, check. Now let's fast forward, okay. Evolution, we'll go through the speed of the years. More chips are coming, you got GPUs, and seeing what's going on in AWS. Wow! Now it's booming. Now I got unlimited processors, I got silicon on chips, I got, everywhere >> Yeah. And what's interesting is that the ecosystem got even more complex, in fact. Because now you have, there's a cross product between machine learning models, frameworks like TensorFlow, PyTorch, Keras, and like that and so on, and then hardware targets. So how do you navigate that? What we want here, our vision is to say, folks should focus, people should focus on making the machine learning models do what they want to do that solves a value, like solves a problem of high value to them. Right? So another deployment should be completely automatic. Today, it's very, very manual to a large extent. So once you're serious about deploying machine learning model, you got a good understanding where you're going to deploy it, how you're going to deploy it, and then, you know, pick out the right libraries and compilers, and we automated the whole thing in our platform. This is why you see the tagline, the booth is right there, like bringing DevOps agility for machine learning, because our mission is to make that fully transparent. >> Well, I think that, first of all, I use that line here, cause I'm looking at it here on live on camera. People can't see, but it's like, I use it on a couple couple of my interviews because the word agility is very interesting because that's kind of the test on any kind of approach these days. Agility could be, and I talked to the robotics guys, just having their product be more agile. I talked to Pepsi here just before you came on, they had this large scale data environment because they built an architecture, but that fostered agility. So again, this is an architectural concept, it's a systems' view of agility being the output, and removing dependencies, which I think what you guys were trying to do. >> Only part of what we do. Right? So agility means a bunch of things. First, you know-- >> Yeah explain. >> Today it takes a couple months to get a model from, when the model's ready, to production, why not turn that in two hours. Agile, literally, physically agile, in terms of walk off time. Right? And then the other thing is give you flexibility to choose where your model should run. So, in our deployment, between the demo and the platform expansion that we announced yesterday, you know, we give the ability of getting your model and, you know, get it compiled, get it optimized for any instance in the cloud and automatically move it around. Today, that's not the case. You have to pick one instance and that's what you do. And then you might auto scale with that one instance. So we give the agility of actually running and scaling the model the way you want, and the way it gives you the right SLAs. >> Yeah, I think Swami was mentioning that, not specifically that use case for you, but that use case generally, that scale being moving things around, making them faster, not having to do that integration work. >> Scale, and run the models where they need to run. Like some day you want to have a large scale deployment in the cloud. You're going to have models in the edge for various reasons because speed of light is limited. We cannot make lights faster. So, you know, got to have some, that's a physics there you cannot change. There's privacy reasons. You want to keep data locally, not send it around to run the model locally. So anyways, and giving the flexibility. >> Let me jump in real quick. I want to ask this specific question because you made me think of something. So we're just having a data mesh conversation. And one of the comments that's come out of a few of these data as code conversations is data's the product now. So if you can move data to the edge, which everyone's talking about, you know, why move data if you don't have to, but I can move a machine learning algorithm to the edge. Cause it's costly to move data. I can move computer, everyone knows that. But now I can move machine learning to anywhere else and not worry about integrating on the fly. So the model is the code. >> It is the product. >> Yeah. And since you said, the model is the code, okay, now we're talking even more here. So machine learning models today are not treated as code, by the way. So do not have any of the typical properties of code that you can, whenever you write a piece of code, you run a code, you don't know, you don't even think what is a CPU, we don't think where it runs, what kind of CPU it runs, what kind of instance it runs. But with machine learning model, you do. So what we are doing and created this fully transparent automated way of allowing you to treat your machine learning models if you were a regular function that you call and then a function could run anywhere. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> That's why-- >> That's better. >> Bringing DevOps agility-- >> That's better. >> Yeah. And you can use existing-- >> That's better, because I can run it on the Artemis too, in space. >> You could, yeah. >> If they have the hardware. (both laugh) >> And that allows you to run your existing, continue to use your existing DevOps infrastructure and your existing people. >> So I have to ask you, cause since you're a professor, this is like a masterclass on theCube. Thank you for coming on. Professor. (Luis laughing) I'm a hardware guy. I'm building hardware for Boston Dynamics, Spot, the dog, that's the diversity in hardware, it's tends to be purpose driven. I got a spaceship, I'm going to have hardware on there. >> Luis: Right. >> It's generally viewed in the community here, that everyone I talk to and other communities, open source is going to drive all software. That's a check. But the scale and integration is super important. And they're also recognizing that hardware is really about the software. And they even said on stage, here. Hardware is not about the hardware, it's about the software. So if you believe that to be true, then your model checks all the boxes. Are people getting this? >> I think they're starting to. Here is why, right. A lot of companies that were hardware first, that thought about software too late, aren't making it. Right? There's a large number of hardware companies, AI chip companies that aren't making it. Probably some of them that won't make it, unfortunately just because they started thinking about software too late. I'm so glad to see a lot of the early, I hope I'm not just doing our own horn here, but Apache TVM, the infrastructure that we built to map models to different hardware, it's very flexible. So we see a lot of emerging chip companies like SiMa.ai's been doing fantastic work, and they use Apache TVM to map algorithms to their hardware. And there's a bunch of others that are also using Apache TVM. That's because you have, you know, an opening infrastructure that keeps it up to date with all the machine learning frameworks and models and allows you to extend to the chips that you want. So these companies pay attention that early, gives them a much higher fighting chance, I'd say. >> Well, first of all, not only are you backable by the VCs cause you have pedigree, you're a professor, you're smart, and you get good recruiting-- >> Luis: I don't know about the smart part. >> And you get good recruiting for PhDs out of University of Washington, which is not too shabby computer science department. But they want to make money. The VCs want to make money. >> Right. >> So you have to make money. So what's the pitch? What's the business model? >> Yeah. Absolutely. >> Share us what you're thinking there. >> Yeah. The value of using our solution is shorter time to value for your model from months to hours. Second, you shrink operator, op-packs, because you don't need a specialized expensive team. Talk about expensive, expensive engineers who can understand machine learning hardware and software engineering to deploy models. You don't need those teams if you use this automated solution, right? Then you reduce that. And also, in the process of actually getting a model and getting specialized to the hardware, making hardware aware, we're talking about a very significant performance improvement that leads to lower cost of deployment in the cloud. We're talking about very significant reduction in costs in cloud deployment. And also enabling new applications on the edge that weren't possible before. It creates, you know, latent value opportunities. Right? So, that's the high level value pitch. But how do we make money? Well, we charge for access to the platform. Right? >> Usage. Consumption. >> Yeah, and value based. Yeah, so it's consumption and value based. So depends on the scale of the deployment. If you're going to deploy machine learning model at a larger scale, chances are that it produces a lot of value. So then we'll capture some of that value in our pricing scale. >> So, you have direct sales force then to work those deals. >> Exactly. >> Got it. How many customers do you have? Just curious. >> So we started, the SaaS platform just launched now. So we started onboarding customers. We've been building this for a while. We have a bunch of, you know, partners that we can talk about openly, like, you know, revenue generating partners, that's fair to say. We work closely with Qualcomm to enable Snapdragon on TVM and hence our platform. We're close with AMD as well, enabling AMD hardware on the platform. We've been working closely with two hyperscaler cloud providers that-- >> I wonder who they are. >> I don't know who they are, right. >> Both start with the letter A. >> And they're both here, right. What is that? >> They both start with the letter A. >> Oh, that's right. >> I won't give it away. (laughing) >> Don't give it away. >> One has three, one has four. (both laugh) >> I'm guessing, by the way. >> Then we have customers in the, actually, early customers have been using the platform from the beginning in the consumer electronics space, in Japan, you know, self driving car technology, as well. As well as some AI first companies that actually, whose core value, the core business come from AI models. >> So, serious, serious customers. They got deep tech chops. They're integrating, they see this as a strategic part of their architecture. >> That's what I call AI native, exactly. But now there's, we have several enterprise customers in line now, we've been talking to. Of course, because now we launched the platform, now we started onboarding and exploring how we're going to serve it to these customers. But it's pretty clear that our technology can solve a lot of other pain points right now. And we're going to work with them as early customers to go and refine them. >> So, do you sell to the little guys, like us? Will we be customers if we wanted to be? >> You could, absolutely, yeah. >> What we have to do, have machine learning folks on staff? >> So, here's what you're going to have to do. Since you can see the booth, others can't. No, but they can certainly, you can try our demo. >> OctoML. >> And you should look at the transparent AI app that's compiled and optimized with our flow, and deployed and built with our flow. That allows you to get your image and do style transfer. You know, you can get you and a pineapple and see how you look like with a pineapple texture. >> We got a lot of transcript and video data. >> Right. Yeah. Right, exactly. So, you can use that. Then there's a very clear-- >> But I could use it. You're not blocking me from using it. Everyone's, it's pretty much democratized. >> You can try the demo, and then you can request access to the platform. >> But you get a lot of more serious deeper customers. But you can serve anybody, what you're saying. >> Luis: We can serve anybody, yeah. >> All right, so what's the vision going forward? Let me ask this. When did people start getting the epiphany of removing the machine learning from the hardware? Was it recently, a couple years ago? >> Well, on the research side, we helped start that trend a while ago. I don't need to repeat that. But I think the vision that's important here, I want the audience here to take away is that, there's a lot of progress being made in creating machine learning models. So, there's fantastic tools to deal with training data, and creating the models, and so on. And now there's a bunch of models that can solve real problems there. The question is, how do you very easily integrate that into your intelligent applications? Madrona Venture Group has been very vocal and investing heavily in intelligent applications both and user applications as well as enablers. So we say an enable of that because it's so easy to use our flow to get a model integrated into your application. Now, any regular software developer can integrate that. And that's just the beginning, right? Because, you know, now we have CI/CD integration to keep your models up to date, to continue to integrate, and then there's more downstream support for other features that you normally have in regular software development. >> I've been thinking about this for a long, long, time. And I think this whole code, no one thinks about code. Like, I write code, I'm deploying it. I think this idea of machine learning as code independent of other dependencies is really amazing. It's so obvious now that you say it. What's the choices now? Let's just say that, I buy it, I love it, I'm using it. Now what do I got to do if I want to deploy it? Do I have to pick processors? Are there verified platforms that you support? Is there a short list? Is there every piece of hardware? >> We actually can help you. I hope we're not saying we can do everything in the world here, but we can help you with that. So, here's how. When you have them all in the platform you can actually see how this model runs on any instance of any cloud, by the way. So we support all the three major cloud providers. And then you can make decisions. For example, if you care about latency, your model has to run on, at most 50 milliseconds, because you're going to have interactivity. And then, after that, you don't care if it's faster. All you care is that, is it going to run cheap enough. So we can help you navigate. And also going to make it automatic. >> It's like tire kicking in the dealer showroom. >> Right. >> You can test everything out, you can see the simulation. Are they simulations, or are they real tests? >> Oh, no, we run all in real hardware. So, we have, as I said, we support any instances of any of the major clouds. We actually run on the cloud. But we also support a select number of edge devices today, like ARMs and Nvidia Jetsons. And we have the OctoML cloud, which is a bunch of racks with a bunch Raspberry Pis and Nvidia Jetsons, and very soon, a bunch of mobile phones there too that can actually run the real hardware, and validate it, and test it out, so you can see that your model runs performant and economically enough in the cloud. And it can run on the edge devices-- >> You're a machine learning as a service. Would that be an accurate? >> That's part of it, because we're not doing the machine learning model itself. You come with a model and we make it deployable and make it ready to deploy. So, here's why it's important. Let me try. There's a large number of really interesting companies that do API models, as in API as a service. You have an NLP model, you have computer vision models, where you call an API and then point in the cloud. You send an image and you got a description, for example. But it is using a third party. Now, if you want to have your model on your infrastructure but having the same convenience as an API you can use our service. So, today, chances are that, if you have a model that you know that you want to do, there might not be an API for it, we actually automatically create the API for you. >> Okay, so that's why I get the DevOps agility for machine learning is a better description. Cause it's not, you're not providing the service. You're providing the service of deploying it like DevOps infrastructure as code. You're now ML as code. >> It's your model, your API, your infrastructure, but all of the convenience of having it ready to go, fully automatic, hands off. >> Cause I think what's interesting about this is that it brings the craftsmanship back to machine learning. Cause it's a craft. I mean, let's face it. >> Yeah. I want human brains, which are very precious resources, to focus on building those models, that is going to solve business problems. I don't want these very smart human brains figuring out how to scrub this into actually getting run the right way. This should be automatic. That's why we use machine learning, for machine learning to solve that. >> Here's an idea for you. We should write a book called, The Lean Machine Learning. Cause the lean startup was all about DevOps. >> Luis: We call machine leaning. No, that's not it going to work. (laughs) >> Remember when iteration was the big mantra. Oh, yeah, iterate. You know, that was from DevOps. >> Yeah, that's right. >> This code allowed for standing up stuff fast, double down, we all know the history, what it turned out. That was a good value for developers. >> I could really agree. If you don't mind me building on that point. You know, something we see as OctoML, but we also see at Madrona as well. Seeing that there's a trend towards best in breed for each one of the stages of getting a model deployed. From the data aspect of creating the data, and then to the model creation aspect, to the model deployment, and even model monitoring. Right? We develop integrations with all the major pieces of the ecosystem, such that you can integrate, say with model monitoring to go and monitor how a model is doing. Just like you monitor how code is doing in deployment in the cloud. >> It's evolution. I think it's a great step. And again, I love the analogy to the mainstream. I lived during those days. I remember the monolithic propriety, and then, you know, OSI model kind of blew it. But that OSI stack never went full stack, and it only stopped at TCP/IP. So, I think the same thing's going on here. You see some scalability around it to try to uncouple it, free it. >> Absolutely. And sustainability and accessibility to make it run faster and make it run on any deice that you want by any developer. So, that's the tagline. >> Luis Ceze, thanks for coming on. Professor. >> Thank you. >> I didn't know you were a professor. That's great to have you on. It was a masterclass in DevOps agility for machine learning. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. >> Thank you very much. Thank you. >> Congratulations, again. All right. OctoML here on theCube. Really important. Uncoupling the machine learning from the hardware specifically. That's only going to make space faster and safer, and more reliable. And that's where the whole theme of re:MARS is. Let's see how they fit in. I'm John for theCube. Thanks for watching. More coverage after this short break. >> Luis: Thank you. (gentle music)

>>Hello, everyone. This is not appropriate to lapse of America. I'm going to talk about the motivation. For zero knowledge goes back to the heart off, winding down identity, ownership, community and control. Much of photography exists today to support control communications among individuals in the one world. We also consider devices as extensions of individuals and corporations as communities. Here's hoping you're not fit in this picture. What defines the boundary off an individual is the ability to hold a secret with maybe, it says, attached to the ownership. Off some ethic, we want the ability to use the secret to prove ownership of this asset. However, giving up the secret itself essentially announced ownership since then, anybody else can do the same. Dear Knowledge gives us tools to prove ownership without revealing the secret. The notion of proving ownership off a digital object without revealing it sounds very paradoxical outside the model off. So it gives us a surprise when this motion was formalized and constructed by Goldwasser Miccoli and back off in the late eighties, we'll focus on the non interactive >>version of Siri, a knowledge our music in the >>stock, which was first developed by blow Tillman and Peggy, where the general it can span multiple rounds of communications music only allows a single message to be trusted. No, let's get into some technical details for musics. The objective of for music is to show that an object X, which you can think off as the public footprint, often asset, belonging clan and the language without revealing its witness. W, which you can think off as the Future Analytics team consists off three algorithms, video proof and very. The key generation process is executed by a trusted third party and the very opposite, resulting in a common >>random string, or steers, which is made public. The >>true vendor produces a proof by based on the CIA's X and the very fine with the checks. The proof against X and accepts or rejects music off course has to satisfy some properties. We needed to be correct, which basically says that when everyone follows the protocol correctly on, so we can expect, we need to be thought, which says that a false statement cannot be proven. The channel is a trickier properly to form this. How do we capture the intuition behind saying that the proof there is no knowledge of the witness. One way to capture that is to imagine their tools is the real world where the proof is calculated. Using the witness on there's a simulation worth where the proof is calculated without a witness. To make this possible, the simulator may have some extra information about the CIA's, which is independent off the objectives. The property then requires that it is not possible to effectively distinguish these words Now. It is especially challenging to construct music's compared to encryption signature schemes, in particular in signature schemes. The analog off the Hoover can use a secret, and in any case, the analog off the very fire can use a secret. But in is it's none of the crew layer and the verifier can hold a secret. Yeah, in this talk, I'm going to focus on linear subspace languages. This class is the basis of hardness. >>Assumptions like GH and deliver >>on has proved extremely useful in crypto constructions. This is how we express DD it and dealing as linear software. We will use additive notation on express the spirit logs as the near group actions on coop elements. You think the syntax we can write down Deitch on dealing Jupiter's very naturally a zoo witness sector times a constant electric so we can view the language as being penetrated by a constant language. Metrics really was hard by many groups in our instructions. What does it mean? S while uh, Standard group allows traditions and explain it off by in your group also allows one modification In such groups, we can state various in yourself facing elections. The DDN is the simplest one. It assumes that sampling a one dimensional space is indistinguishable from something full professional. The decisional linear assumption assumes the theme from tours is three dimensional spaces generalizing the sequence of Presumptions. The scaling the resumption asks to distinguish between gay damaged examples and full it and >>examples from a K plus one national space. >>Right, So I came up with a breakthrough. Is the construction in Europe 2008 in particular? There? Music for many years Off Spaces was the first efficient >>construction based on idiots and gear. Structurally, >>it consisted of two parts Our commitment to the witness Andre question proof part and going how the witness actually corresponds to the object. The number of elements in the proof is linear in the number >>of witnesses on the number of elements in the object. >>The question remains to build even shorter visits. The Sierras itself seemed to provide some scoop Rosa Russo fix. See how that works for an entire class of languages? Maybe there's a way to increase proof efficiency on the cost of having had Taylor Sierra's for each year. This is what motivates quality and after six, where we let the solace depend on the language itself. In particular, we didn't require the discrete logs of the language constants to generate this, Yes, but we did require this constant student generated from witness sample distributions. This still turns out to be sufficient for many applications. The construction achieved a perfect knowledge, which was universally in the sense that the simulator was independent. However, soundness is competition. So here's how the construction differed from roots high at a very high level, the language constants are embedded into the CIA s in such a way that the object functions as it's only so we end up not needing any separate commitment in the perfect sense. Our particular construction also needed fewer elements in the question proof, as there On the flip side, the CIA's blows up quadratic instead of constant. Let's get into the detail construction, which is actually present with this script. Let the language apparently trace by Giovanni tricks with the witness changing over time, we sat down and matrices >>D and B with appropriate damages. >>Then we construct the public series into what C. S. D is meant to be used. By the way. On it is constructed by >>multiplying the language matrix with D and being worse, Sierra's V is the part that is meant to be used by the very fair, and it is constructed using details be on be embedded in teaching. >>Now let's say you're asked to computer proof for a candidate X with fitness number we computed simply as a product of the witness with CSP. The verification of the truth is simply taking with the pairing off the candidate and the proof with the Sierras. Seeming threats is equal to zero. If you look carefully. Sierra's V essentially embedded in G to the kernel of the Matrix, owned by the language metrics here and so to speak. This is what is responsible for the correctness. The zero knowledge property is also straightforward, >>given the trapdoor matrices, D and B. Now, >>when corrected journalism relatively simple to prove proving illnesses strictly The central observation is that, given CSP, there is still enough entropy. >>India and me to >>random I seriously in particular Sierra's we Can we expand it to have an additional component with a random sample from the kernel allows it. This transformation is purely statistical. No, we essentially invented idiots are killing their talent in the era of kernel part in this transform sitting within show that an alleged proof on a bad candidate and we used to distinguish whether a subspace sample was used for a full space >>sample was used at the challenge. The need >>to have the kernel of the language in this city. That's the technical >>reason why we need the language to come from a witness. Sample. >>Uh, let's give a simple illustration >>of the system on a standard Diffie Hellman, which g one with the hardness assumption being idiot. >>So the language is defined by G one elements small D, E and F, with pupils off the phone due to the W. After that ugly, the CIA is is generated as follows example D and >>B from random on Compute Sierra speak as due to the day after the being verse and Sierra's V as G to do to do the big on day two of the video. The >>proof of the pupil >>detail that I do after the bill is computed using W. As Sierra Speed race to the party. I know that this is just a single element in the group. The verification is done by bearing the Cooper and the proof with the Sierras VMS and then checking in quality. The >>similar can easily compute the proof using trapdoors demand without knowing that what we are expecting. People leave a Peter's die and reduce the roof size, the constant under a given independent of the number of witnesses and object dimensions. Finally, at Cryptocurrency 14 we optimize the proof toe, one group >>element under the idiots. In both the works, the theorists was reduced to linear sites. The >>number of bearings needed for ratification was also industry in years. This is the crypto Ford in construction in action, the construction skeleton remains more or less the famous VR turkey. But the core observation was that many of the Sierras elements could were anomaly. Comite. While still >>maintaining some of this, these extra random items are depicted in red in this side. >>This round of combination of the Sierras elements resulted in a reduction of boat, Bruce says, as also the number of clearings required for education in Europe in 2015 kills, and we came up with a beautiful >>interpretation of skill sets based on the concept of small predictive hash functions. >>This slide is oversimplified but illustrated, wanting, uh, this system has four collecting >>puzzle pieces. The goodness of the language metrics okay again and a key Haider when >>the hidden version of the key is given publicly in the Sears. Now, when we have a good object, the pieces fit together nicely into detectable. However, when we have a bad object, the pieces no longer fit and it becomes >>infeasible to come up with convincing. Zero knowledge is demonstrable by giving the key to the simulator on observing that the key is independent of the language metrics. >>Through the years, we have extended >>enhanced not mind to be six system, especially with our collaborators, Masayuki Abby Koko Jr. Born on U. >>N. Based on your visits, we were able to construct very efficient, identity based encryption structure, resulting signatures >>public verifiable CCS, secure encryption, nine signatures, group signatures, authorities, key extremes and so on. >>It has also been gratifying to see the community make leaps and bounces ideas and also use queuing visits in practical limits. Before finishing off, I wanted to talk to you a little bit about >>some exciting activities going on Hyper ledger, which is relevant for photographers. Hyper >>Leisure is an open source community for enterprise. Great. It's hosted by the minute formation on enjoys participation from numerous industry groups. Uh, so difficult funded to efforts in Africa, we have versa, which is poised to be the crypto home for all. Blocking it and practice a platform for prospecting transactions are part of the legs on the slide here, >>we would love participation from entity inference. So >>that was a brief history of your analytics. Thanks for giving me the opportunity. And thanks for listening

>> Narrator: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is theCUBE conversation. >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE, we're in our Palo Alto studios, the COVID crisis continues. Luckily we've got the ability to interview guests from remote and so we're excited to have this next guest. There's a lot of activity going on around equality and gender diversity, Black Lives Matter, and it feels like it really does feel like there's kind of a step function in moving this along. And there's a lot of groups out there that are trying to take a very active role, and one of the things they're trying to do is help women get on more corporate board seats, more representation, and we're really excited to have our next guest. Who's really taking a slightly different approach, a new approach to this, and we're happy to be joined by Rita Scroggin. She is the founder of FirstBoard.io, and she's also the Practice Director, Executive Group at Triad Group. So Rita, great to see you. >> Thank you very much, Jeff, for having me, I'm super excited to be here and to share the story about FirstBoard.io, what we're doing and how hopefully that will change the world just a little bit. >> That's great. Well, the way that this came about is I was on LinkedIn, I'm on LinkedIn all the time, and all of a sudden this big picture hit my feed and a ton of familiar faces. I think that's what it is four by eight. And I see Abby Kearns, Dao Jensen, Eve Maler, Wendy Perilli, Jocelyn is in there Syamla in there. And I thought, wow, I know a bunch of these women, and I'm always happy to promote the women in theCUBE alumni. And I reached out and I think it was Wendy said, "Hey, this is... She said, "I'm a founding member of this thing called FirstBoard.io. And I (indistinct) and she said, we got to talk to Rita. So it was great to meet you. And this is a new organization. I think you said you started at the very beginning of this year. >> Yeah. >> Why? Let's get kind of to the origin story. >> Yeah. >> What gave you the idea? Why did you think that this was something that needed to be done? And what caused you to actually take the leap of faith and start FirstBoard? >> Yeah, very good question. So in the fall of 2019, I did an event in partnership with K&L Gates and it was about how to get on board, and it wasn't gender specific, but I invited a lot of women from my network, and through K&L Gates, there was a speaker on the panel, Cheryl Bolton, who is now a supporter of FirstBoard.io. And we spoke after the panel discussion, so I was the moderator, and she said, "Do you place people or women specifically, "on private company boards? I said, I do now let's have a conversation about that. So we talked some more and we kind of felt like there's really a need for companies to diversify their boards, particularly private tech companies. And so then I thought about more about the idea. I reached out to a few women in my network and I said, hey, I have this idea. I'm thinking about starting an initiative around this topic, would you be interested in being part of it? And a lot of the women who I reached out to said, I'd love the idea, I would love to get involved. So that was really the origin, then we met, we had a little sort of social get together in, I think it was early December in Palo Alto. And then we said, let's launch officially in January, which we did. So in January we had our first and only in-person meeting, the idea initially was that we would meet every quarter in person. So it would be very localized to Silicon Valley and then COVID happened and everything changed. And we are now meeting via Zoom every six to eight weeks. We have members who are in different locations, most of our members are on Silicon Valley, but we also have a member in New York, in Seattle, in Dallas, and I might forget a location, but we're a little bit more distributed right now. And so that is where we are today. >> So you've done it a little bit different. You've got this group of women, there's 32 women in that picture, the founding members. And so you're taking almost like a cohort approach, a group approach. Why that approach? What did you see that wanted you to go that way, versus doing individual searches for individual companies, looking for individual kind of board members. Why the group approach? What type of dynamic does that introduce? How do the women leverage one another inside of this structure? >> Yeah, that's a good question. That's really the idea. The idea is that we work together collaboratively and that we leverage each other's networks. We raise each other's platform. I might know 10 or 15 or whatever, decision makers let's say VCs, CEOs, but the next member might know an equal number or more or less. So what I was thinking is if we leverage each other's network, we exponentially grow our network and we exponentially grow our visibility. So our focus right now is to really raise the profile of FirstBoard.io and the profile of each member of the group. So it it's fundamentally different, 'cause we're working together, kind of almost like a company that can accelerate where if we have a success, it's everybody's success. Because it raises the profile of everybody else. >> Right. >> So that's the idea, which is different than a networking organization, where you are an unknown member. And we're trying to make this in a different way. >> Right, right. And is the goal, within all the women that have joined, the founding members for all of them to get on a board, I mean, is that all of them are >> That's the goal. qualified people to be on a proper board. >> Yeah, that is the goal, that's the idea, we may not accomplish that in the first round because this is a problem that's been going on for a long time, but we're getting close to our first board placement. So that's I think initial great success. And we're working on a number of initiatives right now to raise the profile. We're doing a video interview with all our supporters. We are creating a campaign, how to reach out to CEOs and VCs. So we're working on a number of things right now behind the background to really target our audience, and our audience is specific to the tech world. So we're focusing really on private tech companies and we're focusing on our decision makers within those organizations. So whether it's the investor, the private equity, growth equity, or venture capital community, or the CEO or other board members for that matter, who may be aware that there's an opening and we're trying to tap into those as well. >> Right, right. So you've mentioned Silicon Valley, VCs and private equity a couple of times. So is the focus more in kind of that ecosystem that we're familiar with here in Silicon Valley with more private, kind of private and growth opportunities, or are you also just fully looking for large, regular public companies as well? >> We wouldn't turn down a public company opportunity, but none of our members have been on a board so far. And I think it's probably more realistic that, the first board position might be at a private tech company where the operating experience is particularly valuable. So that's our primary focus in terms of reaching out of the old But if a public company would come our way and say, we absolutely would love to talk to some of your members, of course we wouldn't turn that down. >> Jeff: Right. >> But actively we are going after private tech companies, and they can be located anywhere, so it's not specific this to Silicon Valley, of course a lot of tech companies are clustered there or here, but it could also be company in New York, or Boston, or wherever, but the focus is really on tech versus a broader focus of any kind of company. >> Right, right. So when you're working with these women who've never been on a board, what do you find is kind of the biggest gap that they need to fill, whether that's a real gap or perceived gap in their either skillsets or experience or whatever, to kind of make the jump and get into one of these board seats. Is it in any particular skill, any particular kind of point of view, what are the types of things that you do as a group to help them be better received, I guess, for the opportunities? >> Yeah. What we don't do is we don't really a training program or prep here. There are other organizations who do that, I think we do a very, very good job. Some of our members are part of other organizations as well. So what we're thinking more is the company oftentimes has, in a certain growth stage, has a gap in some form. And in looking at board opportunities, I think it's important to identify where's that gap, maybe it's go to market, or maybe it is a certain technical expertise, and match them up with the experience of our founding members. So we don't have a program to prepare women, we're more focused on... Okay, we're assuming you're prepared, that might be various degrees, and we're just trying to match kind of the operating expertise to the gap on a fully independent board member at any given company. >> Right, right I think we talked before we turned on the cameras, the three things you said you focus on really is, is operational expertise, skill experience, as well as domain expertise. >> Yeah. >> And so you're really trying to kind of map against a gap that the company has against a skillset that one of the members has. >> Yeah. So far I've sort of facilitated three different board opportunities and two of them, what they had in common, that the company was looking for somebody who really had domain expertise with the audience they were looking at, and who understood the buyer, and who had deep expertise in what to market strategies, developing them. So that's one example, right. And the other company, the third one was looking for somebody who had connections in the space who really understood that particular domain. And so it all depends, and I think it also depends on what stage the company's in. And I think the further along the company is, the more it's about governance and regulations. And earlier on, it's really filling a certain gap on the leadership team. >> Right. >> In the private equity world is also very interesting to us because oftentimes there's a timeline and there are certain growth objectives the company wants to reach. And that's a great opportunity, I think, for FirstBoard to bring in a founding member with that particular operating expertise. >> Right, right. So I'm curious, that's a great segue into kind of the customer side, if you will, the people that are looking for board members. Have you seen over the last several months or years, I'll open it up, kind of a shift in terms of people a, just kind of accepting that there are going to be more women and people of color on the board, but also more of kind of an active search and a more kind of progressive goal to make sure that they do increase the diversity on their boards, whether that be for women or people of color or whatever, just to bring more diversity. Have you seen a shift in your customer base, in terms of they're really focused on prioritization on that? >> Well, I think it's certainly on people's mind and I think now more so than ever with the recent changes and sort of uprising of Black Lives Matter, but I wouldn't say that has really transferred over into real meaningful diversity on boards. I think we still have a long, long way to go, and there's an organization, Him For Her, and I think it was the Calyx Management Institute, they did a study last year and they found that privately, heavily funded companies, 60% of those don't have a single woman on the board. And I think women in general held about 7% of board seats at these companies. So I think there's still a long way to go, but I think it's very important that in the future, a larger proportion of the population is reflected in the boards. Right? So whether it's women, women of color, people of color, so everybody should be part of the leadership team on the board level and on the leadership level. And I think that has become certainly more of a topic, I think, especially for large companies. And I think startups are now recognizing that it's important for them too, especially if they want to be perceived as a company, which has fair and equal values. >> Right. Right. So given that kind of landscape, if you will, what are kind of the expectations that you have with this founding member group? And I presume there'll be other groups in the future once these people all find a great board seat and are doing their thing, kind of, is it a really tough road ahead? Do you see that it's really not that tough on maybe in the macro level, but on the micro level there are some real opportunities, how are you as a group of 32 founding members trying to take this Hill, if you will, against pretty tough odds actually. >> But I think we're going to take it one step at a time. We already did a press release, we have a website, we have some visibility on LinkedIn and we already have been able to curate three different board conversations. So I think step by step, I think we will become more visible. I think we will be more known. We will have more opportunities to introduce founding members, this current cohort and future cohorts. And through that, I think we will make progress. So I'm very optimistic that we can make a difference, that we can get more women on boards. And once the founding members have joined a board, the plan is to launch a group where basically we create a peer group, which will then mentor and support the next cohort. And we also have an amazing group of supporters and partners already. We have Steve Singh from Madrona Ventures. We have Rohini from NGP Capital, and we're always looking for more partners and supporters. I'm not going list everybody right now, but I'm very proud about that we have partners and supporters who bought into the mission and who are helping us accomplish the mission. So I feel very optimistic that we will be able to move the needle. >> Jeff: Yeah. >> It might be at slower pace, but it was still the making a difference. >> Right. Right. Well, the hundredth anniversary of women getting the vote is coming up here in a couple of weeks. Right. And that took a long time to get done, So this stuff it does not happen easily. It does not happen overnight. But I would think certainly too with the increasing number of women in VC roles, as partners, and are also getting on board seats that hopefully that the things are starting to fall in the right direction. And hopefully with each progressive placement is a little bit easier than the one before. So Rita it's great to meet you, everyone I talked to you about you is so excited about the work that you're doing and what you're doing with FirstBoard. >> Thank you. >> I want to give you kind of the last word before we sign off, how should people learn more? How can people support the cause? How should people get involved, so that they can move the needle. >> That's great. Thank you. Get in touch with us on, if you go to the website FirstBoard.io, there is a way to partner with us, there's a link to partner with us, there's a link if you are interested in joining the future cohort. Please contact me and I will respond. And we would love to talk to companies, who are thinking about diversifying their board, we would love to talk to VCs for whom this is important. So please get in touch, and we'll figure out how to change the world together. >> Right And, oh by the way, most studies show you get better business outcomes, right. With diversity of opinion, diversity of points of view. So it's not only the right thing to do, it's also very good business. >> And I think the next decade we are ready for change. I think the society, I think is ready for change. And I think how companies run and are operated, I think people are ready for a change too. So I think the timing is really, really right. And I think we can make it happen. >> Great. Well, Rita, thank you again for taking a few minutes >> Thank you >> and telling your story and joining us on theCUBE. >> Thank you very much. It was pressure of Jeff and I look forward to talk again. >> Yeah. Maybe in person after we get through all this COVID madness. >> Maybe in person, yeah. >> All right. Well, thanks again, Rita. >> Rita: Thank you very much. >> All right She's Rita, I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. (soft music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is breaking analysis with Dave Vellante. >> In June of this year, Snowflake filed a confidential document suggesting that it would do an IPO. Now of course, everybody knows about it, found out about it and it had a $20 billion valuation. So, many in the community and the investment community and so forth are excited about this IPO. It could be the hottest one of the year, and we're getting a number of questions from investors and practitioners and the entire Wiki bond, ETR and CUBE community. So, welcome everybody. This is Dave Vellante. This is "CUBE Insights" powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we're going to unpack five critical questions around Snowflake's IPO or pending IPO. And with me to discuss that is Erik Bradley. He's the Chief Engagement Strategists at ETR and he's also the Managing Director of VENN. Erik, thanks for coming on and great to see you as always. >> Great to see you too. Always enjoy being on the show. Thank you. >> Now for those of you don't know Erik, VENN is a roundtable that he hosts and he brings in CIOs, IT practitioners, CSOs, data experts and they have an open and frank conversation, but it's private to ETR clients. But they know who the individual is, what their role is, what their title is, et cetera and it's a kind of an ask me anything. And I participated in one of them this past week. Outstanding. And we're going to share with you some of that. But let's bring up the agenda slide if we can here. And these are really some of the questions that we're getting from investors and others in the community. There's really five areas that we want to address. The first is what's happening in this enterprise data warehouse marketplace? The second thing is kind of a one area. What about the legacy EDW players like Oracle and Teradata and Netezza? The third question we get a lot is can Snowflake compete with the big cloud players? Amazon, Google, Microsoft. I mean they're right there in the heart, in the thick of things there. And then what about that multi-cloud strategy? Is that viable? How much of a differentiator is that? And then we get a lot of questions on the TAM. Meaning the total available market. How big is that market? Does it justify the valuation for Snowflake? Now, Erik, you've been doing this now. You've run a couple VENNs, you've been following this, you've done some other work that you've done with Eagle Alpha. What's your, just your initial sort of takeaway from all this work that you've been doing. >> Yeah, sure. So my first take on Snowflake was about two and a half years ago. I actually hosted them for one of my VENN interviews and my initial thought was impressed. So impressed. They were talking at the time about their ability to kind of make ease of use of a multi-cloud strategy. At the time although I was impressed, I did not expect the growth and the hyper growth that we have seen now. But, looking at the company in its current iteration, I understand where the hype is coming from. I mean, it's 12 and a half billion private valuation in the last round. The least confidential IPO (laughs) anyone's ever seen (Dave laughs) with a 15 to $20 billion valuation coming out, which is more than Teradata, Margo and Cloudera combined. It's a great question. So obviously the success to this point is warranted, but we need to see what they're going to be able to do next. So I think the agenda you laid out is a great one and I'm looking forward to getting into some of those details. >> So let's start with what's happening in the marketplace and let's pull up a slide that I very much love to use. It's the classic X-Y. On the vertical axis here we show net score. And remember folks, net score is an indicator of spending momentum. ETR every quarter does like a clockwork survey where they're asking people, "Essentially are you spending more or less?" They subtract the less from the more and comes up with a net score. It's more complicated than, but like NPS, it's a very simple and reliable methodology. That's the vertical axis. And the horizontal axis is what's called market share. Market share is the pervasiveness within the data set. So it's calculated by the number of mentions of the vendor divided by the number of mentions within that sector. And what we're showing here is the EDW sector. And we've pulled out a few companies that I want to talk about. So the big three, obviously Microsoft, AWS and Google. And you can see Microsoft has a huge presence far to the right. AWS, very, very strong. A lot of Redshift in there. And then they're pretty high on the vertical axis. And then Google, not as much share, but very solid in that. Close to 60% net score. And then you can see above all of them from a vertical standpoint is Snowflake with a 77.5% net score. You can see them in the upper right there in the green. One of the highest Erik in the entire data set. So, let's start with some sort of initial comments on the big guys and Snowflakes. Your thoughts? >> Sure. Just first of all to comment on the data, what we're showing there is just the data warehousing sector, but Snowflake's actual net score is that high amongst the entire universe that we follow. Their data strength is unprecedented and we have forward-looking spending intention. So this bodes very well for them. Now, what you did say very accurately is there's a difference between their spending intentions on a net revenue level compared to AWS, Microsoft. There no one's saying that this is an apples-to-apples comparison when it comes to actual revenue. So we have to be very cognizant of that. There is domination (laughs) quite frankly from AWS and from Azure. And Snowflake is a necessary component for them not only to help facilitate a multi-cloud, but look what's happening right now in the US Congress, right? We have these tech leaders being grilled on their actual dominance. And one of the main concerns they have is the amount of data that they're collecting. So I think the environment is right to have another player like this. I think Snowflake really has a lot of longevity and our data is supporting that. And the commentary that we hear from our end users, the people that take the survey are supporting that as well. >> Okay, and then let's stay on this X-Y slide for a moment. I want to just pull out a couple of other comments here, because one of the questions we're asking is Whither, the legacy EDW players. So we've got in here, IBM, Oracle, you can see Teradata and then Hortonworks and MapR. We're going to talk a little bit about Hortonworks 'cause it's now Cloudera. We're going to talk a little bit about Hadoop and some of the data lakes. So you can see there they don't have nearly the net score momentum. Oracle obviously has a huge install base and is investing quite frankly in R&D and do an Exadata and it has its own cloud. So, it's got a lock on it's customers and if it keeps investing and adding value, it's not going away. IBM with Netezza, there's really been some questions around their commitment to that base. And I know that a lot of the folks in the VENNs that we've talked to Erik have said, "Well, we're replacing Netezza." Frank Slootman has been very vocal about going after Teradata. And then we're going to talk a little bit about the Hadoop space. But, can you summarize for us your thoughts in your research and the commentary from your community, what's going on with the legacy guys? Are these guys cooked? Can they hang on? What's your take? >> Sure. We focus on this quite a bit actually. So, I'm going to talk about it from the data perspective first, and then we'll go into some of the commentary and the panel. You even joined one yesterday. You know that it was touched upon. But, first on the data side, what we're noticing and capturing is a widening bifurcation between these cloud native and the legacy on-prem. It is undeniable. There is nothing that you can really refute. The data is concrete and it is getting worse. That gap is getting wider and wider and wider. Now, the one thing I will say is, nobody's going to rip out their legacy applications tomorrow. It takes years and years. So when you look at Teradata, right? Their market cap's only 2 billion, 2.3 billion. How much revenue growth do they need to stay where they are? Not much, right? No one's expecting them to grow 20%, which is what you're seeing on the left side of that screen. So when you look at the legacy versus the cloud native, there is very clear direction of what's happening. The one thing I would note from the data perspective is if you switched from net score or adoptions and you went to flat spending, you suddenly see Oracle and Teradata move over to that left a little bit, because again what I'm trying to say is I don't think they're going to catch up. No, but also don't think they're going away tomorrow. That these have large install bases, they have relationships. Now to kind of get into what you were saying about each particular one, IBM, they shut down Netezza. They shut it down and then they brought it back to life. How does that make you feel if you're the head of data architecture or you're DevOps and you're trying to build an application for a large company? I'm not going back to that. There's absolutely no way. Teradata on the other hand is known to be incredibly stable. They are known to just not fail. If you need to kind of re-architect or you do a migration, they work. Teradata also has a lot of compliance built in. So if you're a financials, if you have a regulated business or industry, there's still some data sets that you're not going to move up to the cloud. Whether it's a PII compliance or financial reasons, some of that stuff is still going to live on-prem. So Teradata is still has a very good niche. And from what we're hearing from our panels, then this is a direct quote if you don't mind me looking off screen for one second. But this is a great one. Basically said, "Teradata is the only one from the legacy camp who is putting up a fight and not giving up." Basically from a CIO perspective, the rest of them aren't an option anymore. But Teradata is still fighting and that's great to hear. They have their own data as a service offering and listen, they're a small market cap compared to these other companies we're talking about. But, to summarize, the data is very clear. There is a widening bifurcation between the two camps. I do not think legacy will catch up. I think all net new workloads are moving to data as a service, moving to cloud native, moving to hosted, but there are still going to be some existing legacy on-prem applications that will be supported with these older databases. And of those, Oracle and Teradata are still viable options. >> I totally agree with you and my colleague David Floyd is actually quite high on Teradata Vantage because he really does believe that a key component, we're going to talk about the TAM in a minute, but a key component of the TAM he believes must include the on-premises workloads. And Frank Slootman has been very clear, "We're not doing on-prem, we're not doing this halfway house." And so that's an opportunity for companies like Teradata, certainly Oracle I would put it in that camp is putting up a fight. Vertica is another one. They're very small, but another one that's sort of battling it out from the old NPP world. But that's great. Let's go into some of the specifics. Let's bring up here some of the specific commentary that we've curated here from the roundtables. I'm going to go through these and then ask you to comment. The first one is just, I mean, people are obviously very excited about Snowflake. It's easy to use, the whole thing zero to Snowflake in 90 minutes, but Snowflake is synonymous with cloud-native data warehousing. There are no equals. We heard that a lot from your VENN panelist. >> We certainly did. There was even more euphoria around Snowflake than I expected when we started hosting these series of data warehousing panels. And this particular gentleman that said that happens to be the global head of data architecture for a fortune 100 financials company. And you mentioned earlier that we did a report alongside Eagle Alpha. And we noticed that among fortune 100 companies that are also using the big three public cloud companies, Snowflake is growing market share faster than anyone else. They are positioned in a way where even if you're aligned with Azure, even if you're aligned with AWS, if you're a large company, they are gaining share right now. So that particular gentleman's comments was very interesting. He also made a comment that said, "Snowflake is the person who championed the idea that data warehousing is not dead yet. Use that old monthly Python line and you're not dead yet." And back in the day where the Hadoop came along and the data lakes turned into a data swamp and everyone said, "We don't need warehousing anymore." Well, that turned out to be a head fake, right? Hadoop was an interesting technology, but it's a complex technology. And it ended up not really working the way people want it. I think Snowflake came in at that point at an opportune time and said, "No, data warehousing isn't dead. We just have to separate the compute from the storage layer and look at what I can do. That increases flexibility, security. It gives you that ability to run across multi-cloud." So honestly the commentary has been nothing but positive. We can get into some of the commentary about people thinking that there's competition catching up to what they do, but there is no doubt that right now Snowflake is the name when it comes to data as a service. >> The other thing we heard a lot was ETL is going to get completely disrupted, you sort of embedded ETL. You heard one panelist say, "Well, it's interesting to see that guys like Informatica are talking about how fast they can run inside a Snowflake." But Snowflake is making that easy. That data prep is sort of part of the package. And so that does not bode well for ETL vendors. >> It does not, right? So ETL is a legacy of on-prem databases and even when Hadoop came along, it still needed that extra layer to kind of work with the data. But this is really, really disrupting them. Now the Snowflake's credit, they partner well. All the ETL players are partnered with Snowflake, they're trying to play nice with them, but the writings on the wall as more and more of this application and workloads move to the cloud, you don't need the ETL layer. Now, obviously that's going to affect their talent and Informatica the most. We had a recent comment that said, this was a CIO who basically said, "The most telling thing about the ETL players right now is every time you speak to them, all they talk about is how they work in a Snowflake architecture." That's their only metric that they talk about right now. And he said, "That's very telling." That he basically used it as it's their existential identity to be part of Snowflake. If they're not, they don't exist anymore. So it was interesting to have sort of a philosophical comment brought up in one of my roundtables. But that's how important playing nice and finding a niche within this new data as a service is for ETL, but to be quite honest, they might be going the same way of, "Okay, let's figure out our niche on these still the on-prem workloads that are still there." I think over time we might see them maybe as an M&A possibility, whether it's Snowflake or one of these new up and comers, kind of bring them in and sort of take some of the technology that's useful and layer it in. But as a large market cap, solo existing niche, I just don't know how long ETL is for this world. >> Now, yeah. I mean, you're right that if it wasn't for the marketing, they're not fighting fashion. But >> No. >> really there're some challenges there. Now, there were some contrarians in the panel and they signaled some potential icebergs ahead. And I guarantee you're going to see this in Snowflake's Red Herring when we actually get it. Like we're going to see all the risks. One of the comments, I'll mention the two and then we can talk about it. "Their engineering advantage will fade over time." Essentially we're saying that people are going to copycat and we've seen that. And the other point is, "Hey, we might see some similar things that happened to Hadoop." The public cloud players giving away these offerings at zero cost. Essentially marginal cost of adding another service is near zero. So the cloud players will use their heft to compete. Your thoughts? >> Yeah, first of all one of the reasons I love doing panels, right? Because we had three gentlemen on this panel that all had nothing but wonderful things to say. But you always get one. And this particular person is a CTO of a well known online public travel agency. We'll put it that way. And he said, "I'm going to be the contrarian here. I have seven different technologies from private companies that do the same thing that I'm evaluating." So that's the pressure from behind, right? The technology, they're going to catch up. Right now Snowflake has the best engineering which interestingly enough they took a lot of that engineering from IBM and Teradata if you actually go back and look at it, which was brought up in our panel as well. He said, "However, the engineering will catch up. They always do." Now from the other side they're getting squeezed because the big cloud players just say, "Hey, we can do this too. I can bundle it with all the other services I'm giving you and I can squeeze your pay. Pretty much give it a waive at the cost." So I do think that there is a very valid concern. When you come out with a $20 billion IPO evaluation, you need to warrant that. And when you see competitive pressures from both sides, from private emerging technologies and from the more dominant public cloud players, you're going to get squeezed there a little bit. And if pricing gets squeezed, it's going to be very, very important for Snowflake to continue to innovate. That comment you brought up about possibly being the next Cloudera was certainly the best sound bite that I got. And I'm going to use it as Clickbait in future articles, because I think everyone who starts looking to buy a Snowflake stock and they see that, they're going to need to take a look. But I would take that with a grain of salt. I don't think that's happening anytime soon, but what that particular CTO was referring to was if you don't innovate, the technology itself will become commoditized. And he believes that this technology will become commoditized. So therefore Snowflake has to continue to innovate. They have to find other layers to bring in. Whether that's through their massive war chest of cash they're about to have and M&A, whether that's them buying analytics company, whether that's them buying an ETL layer, finding a way to provide more value as they move forward is going to be very important for them to justify this valuation going forward. >> And I want to comment on that. The Cloudera, Hortonworks, MapRs, Hadoop, et cetera. I mean, there are dramatic differences obviously. I mean, that whole space was so hard, very difficult to stand up. You needed science project guys and lab coats to do it. It was very services intensive. As well companies like Cloudera had to fund all these open source projects and it really squeezed their R&D. I think Snowflake is much more focused and you mentioned some of the background of their engineers, of course Oracle guys as well. However, you will see Amazon's going to trot out a ton of customers using their RA3 managed storage and their flash. I think it's the DC two piece. They have a ton of action in the marketplace because it's just so easy. It's interesting one of the comments, you asked this yesterday, was with regard to separating compute from storage, which of course it's Snowflakes they basically invented it, it was one of their climbs to fame. The comment was what AWS has done to separate compute from storage for Redshift is largely a bolt on. Which I thought that was an interesting comment. I've had some other comments. My friend George Gilbert said, "Hey, despite claims to the contrary, AWS still hasn't separated storage from compute. What they have is really primitive." We got to dig into that some more, but you're seeing some data points that suggest there's copycatting going on. May not be as functional, but at the same time, Erik, like I was saying good enough is maybe good enough in this space. >> Yeah, and especially with the enterprise, right? You see what Microsoft has done. Their technology is not as good as all the niche players, but it's good enough and I already have a Microsoft license. So, (laughs) you know why am I going to move off of it. But I want to get back to the comment you mentioned too about that particular gentleman who made that comment about RedShift, their separation is really more of a bolt on than a true offering. It's interesting because I know who these people are behind the scenes and he has a very strong relationship with AWS. So it was interesting to me that in the panel yesterday he said he switched from Redshift to Snowflake because of that and some other functionality issues. So there is no doubt from the end users that are buying this. And he's again a fortune 100 financial organization. Not the same one we mentioned. That's a different one. But again, a fortune 100 well known financials organization. He switched from AWS to Snowflake. So there is no doubt that right now they have the technological lead. And when you look at our ETR data platform, we have that adoption reasoning slide that you show. When you look at the number one reason that people are adopting Snowflake is their feature set of technological lead. They have that lead now. They have to maintain it. Now, another thing to bring up on this to think about is when you have large data sets like this, and as we're moving forward, you need to have machine learning capabilities layered into it, right? So they need to make sure that they're playing nicely with that. And now you could go open source with the Apache suite, but Google is doing so well with BigQuery and so well with their machine learning aspects. And although they don't speak enterprise well, they don't sell to the enterprise well, that's changing. I think they're somebody to really keep an eye on because their machine learning capabilities that are layered into the BigQuery are impressive. Now, of course, Microsoft Azure has Databricks. They're layering that in, but this is an area where I think you're going to see maybe what's next. You have to have machine learning capabilities out of the box if you're going to do data as a service. Right now Snowflake doesn't really have that. Some of the other ones do. So I had one of my guest panelist basically say to me, because of that, they ended up going with Google BigQuery because he was able to run a machine learning algorithm within hours of getting set up. Within hours. And he said that that kind of capability out of the box is what people are going to have to use going forward. So that's another thing we should dive into a little bit more. >> Let's get into that right now. Let's bring up the next slide which shows net score. Remember this is spending momentum across the major cloud players and plus Snowflake. So you've got Snowflake on the left, Google, AWS and Microsoft. And it's showing three survey timeframes last October, April 20, which is right in the middle of the pandemic. And then the most recent survey which has just taken place this month in July. And you can see Snowflake very, very high scores. Actually improving from the last October survey. Google, lower net scores, but still very strong. Want to come back to that and pick up on your comments. AWS dipping a little bit. I think what's happening here, we saw this yesterday with AWS's results. 30% growth. Awesome. Slight miss on the revenue side for AWS, but look, I mean massive. And they're so exposed to so many industries. So some of their industries have been pretty hard hit. Microsoft pretty interesting. A little softness there. But one of the things I wanted to pick up on Erik, when you're talking about Google and BigQuery and it's ML out of the box was what we heard from a lot of the VENN participants. There's no question about it that Google technically I would say is one of Snowflake's biggest competitors because it's cloud native. Remember >> Yep. >> AWS did a license one time. License deal with PowerShell and had a sort of refactor the thing to be cloud native. And of course we know what's happening with Microsoft. They basically were on-prem and then they put stuff in the cloud and then all the updates happen in the cloud. And then they pushed to on-prem. But they have that what Frank Slootman calls that halfway house, but BigQuery no question technically is very, very solid. But again, you see Snowflake right now anyway outpacing these guys in terms of momentum. >> Snowflake is out outpacing everyone (laughs) across our entire survey universe. It really is impressive to see. And one of the things that they have going for them is they can connect all three. It's that multi-cloud ability, right? That portability that they bring to you is such an important piece for today's modern CIO as data architects. They don't want vendor lock-in. They are afraid of vendor lock-in. And this ability to make their data portable and to do that with ease and the flexibility that they offer is a huge advantage right now. However, I think you're a hundred percent right. Google has been so focused on the engineering side and never really focusing on the enterprise sales side. That is why they're playing catch up. I think they can catch up. They're bringing in some really important enterprise salespeople with experience. They're starting to learn how to talk to enterprise, how to sell, how to support. And nobody can really doubt their engineering. How many open sources have they given us, right? They invented Kubernetes and the entire container space. No one's really going to compete with them on that side if they learn how to sell it and support it. Yeah, right now they're behind. They're a distant third. Don't get me wrong. From a pure hosted ability, AWS is number one. Microsoft is yours. Sometimes it looks like it's number one, but you have to recognize that a lot of that is because of simply they're hosted 365. It's a SAS app. It's not a true cloud type of infrastructure as a service. But Google is a distant third, but their technology is really, really great. And their ability to catch up is there. And like you said, in the panels we were hearing a lot about their machine learning capability is right out of the box. And that's where this is going. What's the point of having this huge data if you're not going to be supporting it on new application architecture. And all of those applications require machine learning. >> Awesome. So we're. And I totally agree with what you're saying about Google. They just don't have it figured out how to sell the enterprise yet. And a hundred percent AWS has the best cloud. I mean, hands down. But a very, very competitive market as we heard yesterday in front of Congress. Now we're on the point about, can Snowflake compete with the big cloud players? I want to show one more data point. So let's bring up, this is the same chart as we showed before, but it's new adoptions. And this is really telling. >> Yeah. >> You can see Snowflake with 34% in the yellow, new adoptions, down yes from previous surveys, but still significantly higher than the other players. Interesting to see Google showing momentum on new adoptions, AWS down on new adoptions. And again, exposed to a lot of industries that have been hard hit. And Microsoft actually quite low on new adoption. So this is very impressive for Snowflake. And I want to talk about the multi-cloud strategy now Erik. This came up a lot. The VENN participants who are sort of fans of Snowflake said three things: It was really the flexibility, the security which is really interesting to me. And a lot of that had to do with the flexibility. The ability to easily set up roles and not have to waste a lot of time wrangling. And then the third was multi-cloud. And that was really something that came through heavily in the VENN. Didn't it? >> It really did. And again, I think it just comes down to, I don't think you can ever overstate how afraid these guys are of vendor lock-in. They can't have it. They don't want it. And it's best practice to make sure your sensitive information is being kind of spread out a little bit. We all know that people don't trust Bezos. So if you're in certain industries, you're not going to use AWS at all, right? So yeah, this ability to have your data portability through multi-cloud is the number one reason I think people start looking at Snowflake. And to go to your point about the adoptions, it's very telling and it bodes well for them going forward. Most of the things that we're seeing right now are net new workloads. So let's go again back to the legacy side that we were talking about, the Teradatas, IBMs, Oracles. They still have the monolithic applications and the data that needs to support that, right? Like an old ERP type of thing. But anyone who's now building a new application, bringing something new to market, it's all net new workloads. There is no net new workload that is going to go to SAP or IBM. It's not going to happen. The net new workloads are going to the cloud. And that's why when you switch from net score to adoption, you see Snowflake really stand out because this is about new adoption for net new workloads. And that's really where they're driving everything. So I would just say that as this continues, as data as a service continues, I think Snowflake's only going to gain more and more share for all the reasons you stated. Now get back to your comment about security. I was shocked by that. I really was. I did not expect these guys to say, "Oh, no. Snowflake enterprise security not a concern." So two panels ago, a gentleman from a fortune 100 financials said, "Listen, it's very difficult to get us to sign off on something for security. Snowflake is past it, it is enterprise ready, and we are going full steam ahead." Once they got that go ahead, there was no turning back. We gave it to our DevOps guys, we gave it to everyone and said, "Run with it." So, when a company that's big, I believe their fortune rank is 28. (laughs) So when a company that big says, "Yeah, you've got the green light. That we were okay with the internal compliance aspect, we're okay with the security aspect, this gives us multi-cloud portability, this gives us flexibility, ease of use." Honestly there's a really long runway ahead for Snowflake. >> Yeah, so the big question I have around the multi-cloud piece and I totally and I've been on record saying, "Look, if you're going looking for an agnostic multi-cloud, you're probably not going to go with the cloud vendor." (laughs) But I've also said that I think multi-cloud to date anyway has largely been a symptom as opposed to a strategy, but that's changing. But to your point about lock-in and also I think people are maybe looking at doing things across clouds, but I think that certainly it expands Snowflake's TAM and we're going to talk about that because they support multiple clouds and they're going to be the best at that. That's a mandate for them. The question I have is how much of complex joining are you going to be doing across clouds? And is that something that is just going to be too latency intensive? Is that really Snowflake's expertise? You're really trying to build that data layer. You're probably going to maybe use some kind of Postgres database for that. >> Right. >> I don't know. I need to dig into that, but that would be an opportunity from a TAM standpoint. I just don't know how real that is. >> Yeah, unfortunately I'm going to just be honest with this one. I don't think I have great expertise there and I wouldn't want to lead anyone a wrong direction. But from what I've heard from some of my VENN interview subjects, this is happening. So the data portability needs to be agnostic to the cloud. I do think that when you're saying, are there going to be real complex kind of workloads and applications? Yes, the answer is yes. And I think a lot of that has to do with some of the container architecture as well, right? If I can just pull data from one spot, spin it up for as long as I need and then just get rid of that container, that ethereal layer of compute. It doesn't matter where the cloud lies. It really doesn't. I do think that multi-cloud is the way of the future. I know that the container workloads right now in the enterprise are still very small. I've heard people say like, "Yeah, I'm kicking the tires. We got 5%." That's going to grow. And if Snowflake can make themselves an integral part of that, then yes. I think that's one of those things where, I remember the guy said, "Snowflake has to continue to innovate. They have to find a way to grow this TAM." This is an area where they can do so. I think you're right about that, but as far as my expertise, on this one I'm going to be honest with you and say, I don't want to answer incorrectly. So you and I need to dig in a little bit on this one. >> Yeah, as it relates to question four, what's the viability of Snowflake's multi-cloud strategy? I'll say unquestionably supporting multiple clouds, very viable. Whether or not portability across clouds, multi-cloud joins, et cetera, TBD. So we'll keep digging into that. The last thing I want to focus on here is the last question, does Snowflake's TAM justify its $20 billion valuation? And you think about the data pipeline. You go from data acquisition to data prep. I mean, that really is where Snowflake shines. And then of course there's analysis. You've got to bring in EMI or AI and ML tools. That's not Snowflake's strength. And then you're obviously preparing that, serving that up to the business, visualization. So there's potential adjacencies that they could get into that they may or may not decide to. But so we put together this next chart which is kind of the TAM expansion opportunity. And I just want to briefly go through it. We published this stuff so you can go and look at all the fine print, but it's kind of starts with the data lake disruption. You called it data swamp before. The Hadoop no schema on, right? Basically the ROI of Hadoop became reduction of investment as my friend Abby Meadow would say. But so they're kind of disrupting that data lake which really was a failure. And then really going after that enterprise data warehouse which is kind of I have it here as a 10 billion. It's actually bigger than that. It's probably more like a $20 billion market. I'll update this slide. And then really what Snowflake is trying to do is be data as a service. A data layer across data stores, across clouds, really make it easy to ingest and prepare data and then serve the business with insights. And then ultimately this huge TAM around automated decision making, real-time analytics, automated business processes. I mean, that is potentially an enormous market. We got a couple of hundred billion. I mean, just huge. Your thoughts on their TAM? >> I agree. I'm not worried about their TAM and one of the reasons why as I mentioned before, they are coming out with a whole lot of cash. (laughs) This is going to be a red hot IPO. They are going to have a lot of money to spend. And look at their management team. Who is leading the way? A very successful, wise, intelligent, acquisitive type of CEO. I think there is going to be M&A activity, and I believe that M&A activity is going to be 100% for the mindset of growing their TAM. The entire world is moving to data as a service. So let's take as a backdrop. I'm going to go back to the panel we did yesterday. The first question we asked was, there was an understanding or a theory that when the virus pandemic hit, people wouldn't be taking on any sort of net new architecture. They're like, "Okay, I have Teradata, I have IBM. Let's just make sure the lights are on. Let's stick with it." Every single person I've asked, they're just now eight different experts, said to us, "Oh, no. Oh, no, no." There is the virus pandemic, the shift from work from home. Everything we're seeing right now has only accelerated and advanced our data as a service strategy in the cloud. We are building for scale, adopting cloud for data initiatives. So, across the board they have a great backdrop. So that's going to only continue, right? This is very new. We're in the early innings of this. So for their TAM, that's great because that's the core of what they do. Now on top of it you mentioned the type of things about, yeah, right now they don't have great machine learning. That could easily be acquired and built in. Right now they don't have an analytics layer. I for one would love to see these guys talk to Alteryx. Alteryx is red hot. We're seeing great data and great feedback on them. If they could do that business intelligence, that analytics layer on top of it, the entire suite as a service, I mean, come on. (laughs) Their TAM is expanding in my opinion. >> Yeah, your point about their leadership is right on. And I interviewed Frank Slootman right in the heart of the pandemic >> So impressed. >> and he said, "I'm investing in engineering almost sight unseen. More circumspect around sales." But I will caution people. That a lot of people I think see what Slootman did with ServiceNow. And he came into ServiceNow. I have to tell you. It was they didn't have their unit economics right, they didn't have their sales model and marketing model. He cleaned that up. Took it from 120 million to 1.2 billion and really did an amazing job. People are looking for a repeat here. This is a totally different situation. ServiceNow drove a truck through BMCs install base and with IT help desk and then created this brilliant TAM expansion. Let's learn and expand model. This is much different here. And Slootman also told me that he's a situational CEO. He doesn't have a playbook. And so that's what is most impressive and interesting about this. He's now up against the biggest competitors in the world: AWS, Google and Microsoft and dozens of other smaller startups that have raised a lot of money. Look at the company like Yellowbrick. They've raised I don't know $180 million. They've got a great team. Google, IBM, et cetera. So it's going to be really, really fun to watch. I'm super excited, Erik, but I'll tell you the data right now suggest they've got a great tailwind and if they can continue to execute, this is going to be really fun to watch. >> Yeah, certainly. I mean, when you come out and you are as impressive as Snowflake is, you get a target on your back. There's no doubt about it, right? So we said that they basically created the data as a service. That's going to invite competition. There's no doubt about it. And Yellowbrick is one that came up in the panel yesterday about one of our CIOs were doing a proof of concept with them. We had about seven others mentioned as well that are startups that are in this space. However, none of them despite their great valuation and their great funding are going to have the kind of money and the market lead that Slootman is going to have which Snowflake has as this comes out. And what we're seeing in Congress right now with some antitrust scrutiny around the large data that's being collected by AWS as your Google, I'm not going to bet against this guy either. Right now I think he's got a lot of opportunity, there's a lot of additional layers and because he can basically develop this as a suite service, I think there's a lot of great opportunity ahead for this company. >> Yeah, and I guarantee that he understands well that customer acquisition cost and the lifetime value of the customer, the retention rates. Those are all things that he and Mike Scarpelli, his CFO learned at ServiceNow. Not learned, perfected. (Erik laughs) Well Erik, really great conversation, awesome data. It's always a pleasure having you on. Thank you so much, my friend. I really appreciate it. >> I appreciate talking to you too. We'll do it again soon. And stay safe everyone out there. >> All right, and thank you for watching everybody this episode of "CUBE Insights" powered by ETR. This is Dave Vellante, and we'll see you next time. (soft music)

>>LA from Las Vegas. It's the cube covering AWS reinvent 2019 brought to you by Amazon web services and along with its ecosystem partners. >>Hello everyone. Welcome back to the cubes. Day three coverage of ADAS reinvent in Las Vegas. It's the cubes coverage. Want to thank Intel for being the headline sponsor for the cube two sets. Without Intel, we wouldn't make it happen. We're here extracting the signal from the noise as usual. Wall-to-wall SiliconANGLE the cube coverage. I'm John Feria with student men and men doing a keynote analysis from Verner Vogel. Stu, you know Vernor's, they always, they always got the disc, the format jazzy kicks it off. You get the partner thing on day two and then they say Verner flask could nerd out on all the good stuff. Uh, containers. Coobernetti's all under the hood stuff. So let's jump in a keynote analysis. What's your take? What's Verner's posture this year? What's the vibe? What's the overall theme of the keynote? >>Well, well, first of all, John, to answer the question that everybody asks when Werner takes the stage, this year's t-shirt was posse. So Verner usually either has a Seattle band or it's usually a Dutch DJ, something like that. So he always delivers it. The geek crowd there. And really after seeing it of sitting through Werner's keynote, I think everybody walks out with AWS certification because architecturally we dig into all these environments. So right. You mentioned they started out with the master class on how Amazon built their hypervisor. Super important. Nitro underneath is the secret sauce. When they bought Annapurna labs, we knew that those chips would be super important going forward. But this is what is going to be the driver for outposts. It is the outpost is the building block for many of the other services announced this week. And absolutely the number one thing I'm hearing in the ecosystems around outpost but far gate and firecracker micro databases and managing containers. >>Um, they had some enterprises up on stage talking about transformation, picking up on the themes that Andy started with his three hour keynote just yesterday. But um, it's a lighter on the news. One of the bigger things out there is we will poke Amazon about how open and transparent they are. About what they're doing. And one of the things they announced was the Amazon builders library. So it's not just getting up on stage and saying, Hey, we've got really smart people and we architected these things and you need to use all of our tools, but Hey, this is how we do things. Reminded me a little bit of a, you know, just echoes of what I heard from get lab, who of course is fully open source, fully transparent, but you know, Amazon making progress. It's Adrian Cockcroft and that team has moved on open source, the container group. >>I had a great interview yesterday with Deepak saying, and Abby fuller, the container group actually has a roadmap up on containers. They're so sharing a lot of deep knowledge and good customers talk about how they're taking advantage, transforming their business. In serverless, I mean, John, coming out of Andy's keynote, I was like, there wasn't a lot of security and there wasn't a lot of serverless. And while serverless has been something that we know is transforming Amazon underneath the covers, we finally got to hear a little bit more about not just Lambda but yes, Lambda, but the rest of it as to how serverless is transforming underneath. >>You know ain't Jessie's got along three hour keynote, 30 announcements, so he has to cut save some minutes there. So for Verner we were expecting to go in a little bit more deeper dive on this transformational architecture. What did you learn about what they're proposing, what they're saying or continuing to say around how enterprises should be reborn in the cloud? Because that's the conversation here and again, we are, the memes that are developing are take the T out of cloud native. It's cloud naive. If you're not doing it right, you're going to be pretty naive. And then reborn in the cloud is the theme. So cloud native, born in the cloud, that's proven. Reborn in the cloud is kind of the theme we're hearing. Did he show anything? Did he talk about what that architecture is for transformation? Right. >>Did actually, it was funny. I'm in a watching the social stream. While things are going on. There was actually a cube alumni that I follow that we've interviewed at this show and he's like, if we've heard one of these journeys to you know, transformation, haven't we heard them all and I said, you know, while the high level message may be similar is I'm going to transfer math transform, I'm going to use data. When you looked at what they were doing, and this is a significant, you know, Vanguard, you know the financial institutions, Dave Volante commenting that you know the big banks, John, we know Goldman Sachs, we know JP Morgan, these banks that they have huge it budgets and very smart staffs there. They years ago would have said, Oh we don't need to use those services. We'll do what ourselves. Well Vanguard talking about how they're transforming rearchitecting my trip services. >>I love your term being reborn cloud native because that is the architecture. Are you cloud native or I used to call it you've kind of cloud native or kinda you know a little bit fo a cloud. Naive is a great term too. So been digging in and it is resonating is to look, transformation is art. This is not trying to move the organizational faster than it will naturally happen is painful. There's skillsets, there's those organizational pieces. There are politics inside the company that can slow you down in the enterprise is not known for speed. The enterprises that will continue to exist going forward better have taken this methodology. They need to be more agile and move. >>Well the thing about the cloud net naive thing that I like and first of all I agree with reborn in the cloud. We coined the term in the queue but um, that's kinda got this born again kind of vibe to it, which I think is what they're trying to say. But the cloud naive is, is some of the conversations we're hearing in the community and the customer base of these clouds, which is there are, and Jesse said it is Kino. There are now two types of developers and customers, the ones that want the low level building blocks and ones who want a more custom or solution oriented packages. So if you look at Microsoft Azure and Oracle of the clouds, they're trying to appeal to the folks that are classic it. Some are saying that that's a naive approach because it's a false sense of cloud, false sense of security. >>They got a little cloud. Is it really true? Cloud is, it's really true. Cloud native. So it's an interesting confluence between what true cloud is from a cloud native standpoint and yet all the big success stories are transformations not transitions. And so to me, I'm watching this it market, which is going to have trillions of dollars in, are they just transitioning? I old it with a new coat of paint or is it truly a skill, a truly an architectural transformation and does it impact the business model? That to me is the question. What's your reaction to that? >>Yeah, so John, I think actually the best example of that cloud native architecture is the thing we're actually all talking about this week, but is misunderstood. AWS outpost was announced last year. It is GA with the AWS native services this year. First, the VMware version is going to come out early in 2020 but here's why I think it is super exciting but misunderstood. When Microsoft did Azure stack, they said, we're going to give you an availability zone basically in your data center. It wasn't giving you, it was trying to extend the operational model, but it was a different stack. It was different hardware. They had to put these things together and really it's been a failure. The architectural design point of outpost is different. It is the same stack. It is an extension of your availability zone, so don't think of it of I've got the cloud in my data center. >>It's no, no, no. What I need for low latency and locality, it's here, but starting off there is no S3 in it because we were like, wait, what do you mean there's no S3 in it? I want to do all these services and everything. Oh yeah. Your S three bucket is in your local AC, so why would you say it's sharing? If you are creating data and doing data, of course I want it in my S three bucket. You know that, that that makes that no, they're going to add us three next year, but they are going to be very careful about what surfaces do and don't go on. This is not, Oh Amazon announces lots of things. Of course it's on outpost. It has the security, it has the operational model. It fits into the whole framework. It can be disconnected song, but it is very different. >>I actually think it's a little bit of a disservice. You can actually go see the rack. I took a selfie with it and put it out on Twitter and it's cool gear. We all love to, you know, see the rack and see the cables and things like that. But you know, my recommendation to Amazon would be just put a black curtain around it because pay no attention to what's here. Amazon manages it for you and yes, it's Amazon gear with the nitro chip underneath there. So customers should not have to think about it. It's just when they're doing that architecture, which from an application standpoint, it's a hybrid architecture. John, some services stay more local because of latency, but others it's that transformation. And it's moving the cloud, the edge, my data center things are much more mobile. Can you to change and move over? >>Well this spring you mentioned hybrid. I think to me the outpost announcement in terms of unpacking that is all about validation of hybrid. You know, VMware's got a smile on their face. Sanjay Poonen came in because you know Gelson you're kind of was pitching hybrid, you know, we were challenging him and then, but truly this means cloud operations has come. This is now very clear. There's no debate and this is what multi-cloud ultimately will look like. But hybrid cloud and public cloud is now the architecture of the of it. There's no debate because outpost is absolute verification that the cloud operating model with the cloud as a center of gravity for all the reasons scale, lower costs management, but moving the cloud operations on premises or the edge proves hybrid is here to stay. And that's where the money is. >>So John, there's a small nuance I'll say there because hybrid, we often think of public and private as equal. The Amazon positioning is it's outpost. It's an extension of what we're doing. The public cloud is the main piece, the edge and the outposts are just extensions where we're reaching out as opposed to if I look at, you know what VMware's doing, I've got my data center footprint. You look at the HCI solution out there. Outpost is not an HCI competitor and people looking at this misunderstand the fundamental architecture in there. Absolutely. Hybrid is real. Edge is important. Amazon is extending their reach, but all I'm saying is that nuance is still, Amazon has matured their thinking on hybrid or even multi-cloud. When you talk to Andy, he actually would talk about multi-cloud, but still at the center of gravity is the public cloud and the Amazon services. It's not saying that, Oh yeah, like you know, let's wrap arounds around all of your existing, >>well, the reason why I liked the cloud naive, take the T out of cloud native and cloud naive is because there is a lot of negativity around what cloud actually is about. I forget outpost cloud itself, and if you look at like Microsoft for instance, love Microsoft, I think they do an amazing work. They're catching up as fast as they can, but, and they play the car. Well we are large scale too, but the difference between Amazon and Microsoft Azure is very clear. Microsoft's had these data centers for MSN, I. E. browsers, global infrastructure around the world for themselves and literally overnight they have to serve other people. And if you look at Gardner's results, their downtime has been pretty much at an all time high. So what you're seeing is the inefficiencies and the district is a scale for Microsoft trying to copy Amazon because they now have to serve millions of customers anywhere. This is what Jessie was telling me in my one-on-one, which is there's no compression algorithm for experience. What he's basically saying is when you try to take shortcuts, there's diseconomies of scale. Amazon's got years of economies of scale, they're launching new services. So Jesse's bet is to make the capabilities. The problem is Microsoft Salesforce do is out there and Amos can't compete with, they're not present and they're going into their customers think we got you covered. And frankly that's working like real well. >>Yeah. So, so, so John, we had the cube at Microsoft ignite. I've done that show for the last few years. And my takeaway at Microsoft this year was they build bridges. If you are, you know, mostly legacy, you know, everything in my data center versus cloud native, I'm going to build your bridge. They have five different developer groups to work with you where you are and they'll go there. Amazon is a little bit more aggressive with cloud native transformation, you know, you need to change your mindset. So Microsoft's a little bit more moderate and it is safer for companies to just say, well, I trust Microsoft and I've worked with Microsoft and I've got an enterprise license agreement, so I'll slowly make change. But here's the challenge, Don. We know if you really want to change your business, you can't get there incrementally. Transformation's important for innovation. So the battle is amazing. You can't be wrong for betting on either Microsoft or Amazon these days. Architecturally, I think Amazon has clear the broadest and deepest out there. They keep proving some of their environments and it has, >>well the economies of scale versus diseconomies scale discussion is huge because ultimately if Microsoft stays on that path of just, you know, we got a two and they continue down that path, they could be on the wrong side of the history. And I'll tell you why I see that and why I'm evaluating Microsoft one, they have the data center. So can they reach tool fast enough? Can they, can they eliminate that technical debt because ultimately they're, they're making a bet. And the true bet is if they become just an it transition, they in my opinion, will, will lose in the long run. Microsoft's going all in on, Nope, we're not the old guard. We're the new guard. So there's an interesting line being formed too. And if Microsoft doesn't get cloud native and doesn't bring true scale, true reliability at the capabilities of Amazon, then they're just going to be just another it solution. And they could, that could fall right on there, right on their face on that. >>And John, when we first came to this show in 2013 it was very developer centric and could Amazon be successful in wooing the enterprise? You look around this show, the answer was a resounding yes. Amazon is there. They have not lost the developers. They're doing the enterprise. When you talk to Andy, you talked about the bottoms up and the top down leadership and working there and across the board as opposed to Google. Google has been trying and not making great progress moving to the enterprise and that has been challenging. >>Oh, I've got to tell you this too. Last night I was out and I got some really good information on jet eye and I was networking around and kind of going in Cognito mode and doing the normal and I found someone who was sharing some really critical information around Jedi. Here's what I learned around this is around Microsoft, Microsoft, one that Jed ideal without the capabilities to deliver on the contract. This was a direct quote from someone inside the DOD and inside the intelligence community who I got some clear information and I said to him, I go, how's that possible? He says, Microsoft one on the fact that they say they could do it. They have not yet proven any capabilities for Jedi. And he even said quote, they don't even have the data centers to support the deal. So here you have the dynamic we save, we can do it. Amazon is doing it. This is ultimately the true test of cloud naive versus cloud native. Ask the clouds, show me the proof, John, you could do it and I'll go with, >>you've done great reporting on the jet. I, it has been a bit of a train wreck to watch what's going on in the industry with that because we know, uh, Microsoft needs to get a certain certification. They've got less than a year. The clock is ticking to be able to support some of those environments. Amazon could support that today. So we knew when this started, this was Amazon's business and that there was the executive office going in and basically making sure that Amazon did not win it. So we said there's a lot of business out there. We know Amazon doing well, and the government deals Gelsinger was on record from VMware talking about lots of, >>well here's, here's, here's the thing. I also talked to someone inside the CIA community who will tell me that the spending in the CIA is flat. Okay. And the, the flatness of the, of the spending is flat, but the demand for mission support is going exponential. So the cloud fits that bill. On the Jedi side, what we're hearing is the DOD folks love this architecture. It was not jury rig for Amazon's jury rig for the workload, so that they're all worried that it's going to get scuttled and they don't want that project to fail. There's huge support and I think the Jedi supports the workload transformational thinking because it's completely different. And that's why everyone was running scared because the old guard was getting, getting crushed by it. But no one wants that deal to fail. They want it to go forward. So it's gonna be very interesting dynamics do if Microsoft can't deliver the goods, Amazon's back in the driver's seat >>deal. And John, I guess you know my final takeaway, we talked a bunch about outpost but that is a building block, 80 West local zones starting first in LA for the telco media group, AWS wavelength working with the five G providers. We had Verizon on the program here. Amazon is becoming the everywhere cloud and they really, as Dave said in your opening keynote there, shock and awe, Amazon delivers mere after a year >>maybe this logo should be everything everywhere cause they've got a lot of capabilities that you said the everything cloud, they've got everything in the store do great stuff. Great on the keynote from Verner Vogel's again, more technology. I'm super excited around the momentum around Coobernetti's you know we love that they think cloud native is going to be absolutely legit and continue to be on a tear in 2020 and beyond. I think the five G wavelength is going to change the network constructs because that's going to introduce new levels of kinds of policy. Managing data and compute at the edge will create new opportunities at the networking layer, which for us, you know, we love that. So I think the IOT edge is going to be a super, super valuable. We even had Blackberry on their, their car group talking about the software inside the car. I mean that's a moving mobile device of, of of industrial strength is industrial IOT. So industrial IOT, IOT, edge outpost, hybrid dude, we called this what year? Yeah, we call that 2013. >>And John, it's great to help our audience get a little bit more cloud native on their education and uh, you know, make sure that we're not as naive anymore. >>Still you're not naive. You're certainly cloud native, born in the clouds do, it's us born here. Our seventh year here at Amazon web services. Want to thank Intel for being our headline sponsor. Without Intel support, we would not have the two stages and bringing all the wall to wall coverage. Thanks for supporting our mission. Intel. We really appreciate it. Give them a shout out. We've got Andy Jassy coming on for exclusive at three o'clock day three stay with us for more coverage. Live in Vegas for reinvent 2019 be right back.