>>The cube presents, Coon and cloud native con Europe, 22 brought to you by the cloud native computing foundation. >>Welcome to ity of Spain and cube con coup con cloud native con Europe 2022 is near the end of the day. That's okay. We, we, we have plenty of energy because we're bringing it. I'm Keith Townsend, along with my coho, Paul Gillon Paul, this has been an amazing day. Thus far. We've talked to some incredible folks. You got a chance to walk the show floor. Yeah. So I'm really excited to hear what's the vibe of the show floor, 7,500 people in Europe following the protocols, but getting stuff done. >>Well, first I have to say that I haven't traveled for two years. So getting out to a show by, by itself is, is an amazing experience, but a show like this with all of the energy and the crowd, she is enormously crowded at lunchtime today. It's hard to believe how many people have made it, made it all the way here out on the floor. The boots are crowded. The, the demonstrations are what you would expect at a show like this. Lots of code, lots of, lots of block diagrams, lots of architecture. I think the audience is eating it up. You know, when they're, they're on their laptops, they're coding on their laptops. And this is very much symbolic of the crowd that comes to a cubic con. And it's, it's a, just a delight to see them outta here. I so much fun. >>So speaking of lots of gold, we have Bome Toro co-founder of pet trade, but, you know, just saw, didn't realize this Isto becoming part of CNCF was the latest on infield. >>Yeah. Is still is, you know, it was always one of those service mesh projects, which was very widely adopted. And it's great to see that going into the cloud native computing foundation. And I think what happened with Kubernetes, like just became the defacto container orchestrator. I think similar thing is happening with Isto and service mesh. >>What, >>So I'm sorry, Keith, what's the process like of becoming adopted by and incubated by the CNCF? >>Yeah, I mean, it's pretty simple. It's an application process into the foundation where you say, you know what the project is about, how diverse is your contributor base, how many people are using it. And it goes through a review of with TC. It goes through a review of like all the users and contributors. And if you see a good base of deployments in production, if you see a diverse of contributors, then you can basically be part of the CNCF. And as you know, CNCF is very flexible on governance. Basically it's like, bring your own governance. And then the projects can basically seamlessly go in and, you know, get into incubation and gradually graduate >>Another project close and dear to you Envoy. Yes. Now I've always considered Envoy just as what it is. It's a, I've always used it as, as a load balancer type thing. So I've always considered it somewhat of a gateway proxy, but Envoy gateway was announced last week. Yes. >>So Envoy is basically won the data plane war of in cloud native workloads. Right. And, but, and this was over the last five years, Envoy was announced even way before Rio and it is used in various deployment models. You can use it as a front load balancer. You can use it as an Ingres in Kubernetes. You can use it as a side car and a service mesh like steel, and it's lightweight dynamically, programmable, very open with a white community. But what we looked at when we looked at the Envoy base, was it still, wasn't very approachable for application developers. Like when you still see like the nouns that it uses in terms of clusters and so on is not what an application developer was used to. And so Envoy gateway is really an effort to make Envoy even more stronger out of the box for an application developer to use it as an API gateway. >>Right? Because if you think about it, ultimately, you know, people de developers start deploying workloads onto their Kubernetes clusters. They need some functionality like an API gateway to expose their services and you wanna make it really, really easy and simple. Right? I often say like what, what engine X was to like static websites like Envoy gateway will be to like, you know, APIs and it's really few the community coming together. We are a big part, but also VMware and as well as end users, like in this case, fidelity who is investing heavily into Envoy and API gateway use cases, joining forces saying, let's do this in upstream Envoy. >>I'd like to go back to IIO because this is a major step in IIOS development. Where do you see SIO coming into the picture? And Kubernetes is already broadly accepted. Is IIO generally adopted as an after an after step to, to Kubernetes or are they increasingly being adopted together? >>Yeah. So usually it's adopted as a follow on step and the reason is primarily the learning curve, right. It's just get used to all the Kubernetes and, you know, it takes a while for people to understand the concepts, get applications going, and then, you know, studio was made to basically solve, you know, three big problems there. Right. Which is around observability traffic management and security. Right. So as people deploy more services, they figure out, okay, how do I connect them? How do I secure all the connections and how do I do more fine grain routing? I'm doing more frequent deployments with Kubernetes, but I would like to do Canary releases to make safer rollouts. Right. And those are the problems that Isto solves. And I don't really want to know the metrics of like, yes, it'll be, I it's good to know all the node level and CPO level metrics. >>But really what I want to know is how are my services performing? Where is the latency, right? Where is the error rate? And those are the things thatto gives out of the box. So that's like a very natural next step for people using Kubernetes. And, you know, Tetra was really formed as a company to enable enterprises, to adopt STO Envoy and service mission, their environment. Right? So we do everything from run an academy for like courses and certifications on Envoy and STO to a distribution, which is, you know, compliant with various bills and tooling as well as a whole platform on top of STO to make it usable and deployment in a large enterprise. >>So paint the end to end for me, for STO in Envoy. I know they can be used in similar fashions is like side cars, but how they work together to deliver value. >>Yeah. So if you step back from technology a little bit, right, and you like, sort of look at what customers are doing and facing, right. Really it is about, they have applications. They have some applications that new workloads going into Kubernetes and cloud native. They have a lot of legacy workloads, a lot of workloads on VMs and with different teams in different clouds or due to acquisitions. They're very heterogeneous right now. Our mission Tetrad's mission is power. The world's application traffic, but really the business value that we are going after is consistency of application operations. Right? And I'll tell you how powerful that is because the more places you can deploy Envoy into the more places you can deploy studio into, the more consistency you can get for the value pillars of observability, traffic management, and security. Right. And really, if you think about what is the journey for an enterprise to migrate from workloads into Kubernetes or from data centers into cloud, the challenges are around security and connectivity, right? Because if it's Kubernetes fabric, the same Kubernetes app and data center can be deployed exactly as is it in cloud. Right. Right. So why is it hard to migrate to cloud, right. The challenges come in the security and networking layer. >>Right. So let's talk about that with some granularity and you can maybe gimme some concrete examples, right? Because it, as I think about the hybrid infrastructure where I have VMs on premises, cloud, native stuff, running in the public cloud, or even cloud native next to VMs, right. I do security differently when I'm in the VM world. I say, you know what, this IP address, can't talk to this Oracle database server. Right. That's not how cloud native works. Right. I, I can't say if I have a cloud, if I have a cloud native app talking to a Oracle database, there's no IP address. Yeah. But how do I, how, how do I secure the communication between the two? Exactly. >>So I think you hit it straight on the head. So which is with things like Kubernetes, IP is no longer a really a valid noun where you can say, because things will auto scale either from Kubernetes or, you know, the cloud autoscales. So really the noun that is becoming now is service. So, and I could have many instances of it. They could go scale up and down. But what I'm saying is this service, which, you know, some app server, some application can talk to the article service. Hmm. And what we have done with the te trade service bridge, which is why we call our platform service bridge, because it's all about bridging all the services is whatever you're running on, the VM can be onboarded onto the mesh, like as if it were a ity service. Right. And then my policy around this service can talk to this service is same in Kubernetes is same for Kubernetes talking to VM it's same for VM to VM, both in terms of access control in terms of encryption. What we do is because it's the Envoy, proxy goes everywhere and the traffic is going through them. We actually take care of distributing, certs, encrypting, everything, and it becomes, and that is what leads to consistent application operations. And that's where the value is. >>We're seeing a lot of activity around observ observability right now, a lot of different tools, both open source and proprietary STO certainly part of the open telemetry project, I believe. Are you part of that? Yes. But the customers are still piecing together a lot of tools on their own. Right. Do you see a, a more coherent framework forming around observability? >>I think very much so. And there are layers of observability, right? So the thing is like, if we tell you there is latency between these two services at L seven layer, the first question is, is it the service? Is it the Envoy? Or is it the network? It sounds like a very simple question. It's actually not that easy to answer. And that is one of the questions we answer in like platforms like ours. Right. But even that is not the end. It, if it's neither of these three, it could be the node. It could be the hardware underneath. Right. And those, you realize like those are different observability tools that work on each layer. So I think there's a lot of work to be done, to enable end users to go from app, like from top to bottom to make, reduce what is called MTTR or meantime to, you know, resolution of an issue, where is the problem. >>But I think with tools like what is being built now, it is becoming easier, right? It is because one of the things we have to realize is with things like Kubernetes, we made the development of microservices easier. Right. And that's great. But as a result, what is happening is that more things are getting broken down. So there is more network in between. So that's harder. It gets to troubleshoot harder. It gets to secure everything harder. It gets to get visibility from everywhere. Right. So I often say like, actually, if you're going embarking down microservices journey, you actually are, you better have a platform like this. Otherwise, you know, you're, you're taking on operational cost. >>Wow. J's paradox. The more accessible we make something, the more it gets used, the more complex it is. That's been a theme here at KU con cloud native con Europe, 2022 from Licia Spain. I'm Keith Townsend, along with my host, Paul Gillman. And you're watching the queue, the leader in high tech coverage.

>> Live from San Diego California, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back. We're at the end of three days of wall-to-wall coverage here at KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2019 in San Diego. I am Stu Miniman and my co-host for this week has been John Troyer, and we figured no better way to cap our coverage than bring on a CUBE alumni who has likely educated more people about containers and Kubernetes, you know, may be second only to the CNCF. So, Nigel Poulton now the head of content at msb.com. Nigel, pleasure to see you and thanks for coming back on the program. >> Honestly gents, the pleasure is all mine, as always. >> All right, so Nigel, first of all I'd love to get your just gestalt of the week. You know, take away, what's the energy. You know, how is was this community doing. >> Yeah, so it's the end of the week and my brain is a mixture of fried and about to explode, okay. Which i think is a good thing. That's what you want at the end of a conference, right. But I think if we can dial it back to the first day at that opening keynote, something that really grabbed me at the time and has been sort of a theme for me throughout the conference, is when they asked, can you raise your hand if this is your first KubeCon, and it's a room of 8,000 people, and I don't have the data at hand right, but I'm sat there, I've got my brother on this side, it's his first ever KubeCon, and he kind of goes like this, and then he realizes that nearly everybody around us has got their hands up, so he's kind of like, whoa yeah, I feel like I'm on the in the in-crowd now. And I think from the people that I've spoken to it seems to be that the community is maturing, the conference or the event itself is maturing, and that starts to bring in kind of a different crowd, and a new crowd. People that are not necessarily building Kubernetes or building projects in the Kubernetes ecosystem, but looking to bring it into their organizations to run their own applications. >> Yeah, no absolutely. You know, the rough number I heard was somewhere two-thirds to three-quarters of that room were new. >> Nigel: I can believe that. >> 12,000 here in attendance, right. There were 8,000 here last year. >> Nigel: Yeah. >> You think about the, you know, somebody, oh I sent somebody this year, I sent somebody different the next year, and all the new people. So, you know, Nigel, luckily that keeps you busy, because there is something I've said for a long, long, time is there is always a need for that introductory and then how do I get started and how do I get into here, and luckily the the ecosystem and all the projects and everything, somebody could pick that up in five or 10 minutes if they'd just put their mind to it, right. >> So I say this a lot of the time, that I feel like we live in the Golden Age of being able to take hold of your own career and learn a technology and make the best of what's available for you. Now we don't live in the day where we used, you know, to learn something new you would have to buy infrastructure. I mean even to learn Windows back in the day, or NetWare or Linux you'd need a couple of dusty old PCs in the corner of your office or your bedroom or something, and it was hard. Whereas now with cloud, with video training, with all the hands-on labs and stuff that are out there, with all of the sessions that you get at events like this, if you're interested in pushing your career forward, not only have you not got an excuse not to do it anymore, but the opportunities are just amazing, right. I feel like we live in such an, I feel like we're living in a exciting time for tech. >> Well Nigel, you do books, said you've done training courses, you have your platform of like a lab platform, msb.com. And one of the challenges in this space is that it is moving so fast, right. Yes, you have, anything's at your fingertips, but. >> Nigel: Yeah. >> Kubernetes changes every every quarter. Here at the show, both scale of people's deployments, but also scale of the probably number of projects, and everything has a different name. >> Nigel: Yeah. >> So, how are you, what should people be looking for? How are you changing your curriculum? What are you what are you adding to it, what are you replicating? >> Yeah, so that's super interesting. I think, right, as well, so it's a Golden Age for learning right, but if you're in the technology industry in the sort of areas that we are, right, if you don't love it and if you're not passionate about it, I almost feel like you're in the wrong industry, because you need that passion, and that sort of it's my hobby as well as my job, just to keep up. Like I feel like I spend an unhealthy amount of time in the Cloud Native ecosystem and just trying to keep track of everything that's going on. And all that time that I spend in, I still feel like I'm playing catch-up all the time. So I think you have to adjust your mentality. Like if you thought that you could learn something, a technology or whatever, and be comfortable for five years in your role, then you really need to adjust that. Like just an example, right. So I write, I offer a book as well, and I would love nothing better than to write that book, stick it on a shelf on Amazon and what-have-you and let it be valid for five years. I would love that because it's hard work, but I can't so like I do a six monthly update, but that applies to way more than that. So for your career, you know, if you want to, it sounds cheesy, if you want to rock it in your career, you have got to keep yourself up to date. And it's a race, but I do think that the kind of things were doing with tech now, they're fun things, right. >> Yeah, a little scary, because while we're at this show I hope you kept up with all the Amazon announcements, the Google announcements. >> Nigel: Yeah. >> And everything going, because it is it is non-stop. >> Nigel: It is. >> Out there. Nigel, we last had you on theCUBE two years ago at this show, and at every show for a bunch of shows it seemed like there was a project or a category du jour. >> Nigel: Yeah. >> I don't know that I quite got that this year. There were some really cool things at edge computing. There was the observability, something we spent a bunch of time talking on. But we'd love to just kind of throw it out there as to what you're seeing in the ecosystem, the landscape, some of the areas that are interesting. >> Nigel: Yeah. >> Important, and what's growing, what's not. >> Okay, so if I can take the event first off, right, so KubeCon itself. Loads of new people, okay, and when I talk to them I'm getting three answers from them. Like number one, they're like, some people like, I just love it, you know, which is great, and I've loved it and it's an amazing event. Other people are like kind of over awed by it, the size. So I don't know, maybe we should send them to re:Invent and then come back here and then they'll be like, oh yeah, it's not so bad. But the second thing is that some of the sessions are going over the first timers heads. So I'm hoping, and I'm sure it will, that going forward in Amsterdam and Boston next year that we'll start to be able to pitch parts of the conference to that new user base. So that was kind of a theme from speaking to people at the event from me. But a couple of things from the ecosystem, like we talked about service mesh, right, two years ago, and it felt like it was a bit of a buzzword, but everyone was talking about it and it was a real theme, and I don't get that at this conference, but what I do feel from the community in general is that uptake and adoption is actually starting to happen now, and thanks a lot to, well look, Linkerd pretty easy these days, STO is making great strides to being easier to deploy, but I also think that the cloud providers, those hosted cloud providers, really stepping up to the plate, like they did with hosted Kubernetes, you know when it was hard to get Kubernetes for your environment. We're seeing a similar thing with the service mesh. You can spin something up in GKE, Kubernetes cluster, click the box, and I'll have a service mesh, thank you very much. >> Well, it's funny. I think back to Austin, when I talk to the average customer in the show floor and said, "What are you doing?" they were rolling their own. Picking all of the pieces and doing it. When I talk to the average customer here, is, I'm using managed services. >> Nigel: Yeah. >> Seems to have matured a lot. Of course, some of the manage public cloud services were brand new or a couple months there. Is that's a general direction you see things going? >> So, yes, but I almost wonder if it will be like cloud in general, right, where there was a big move to the cloud. And I understand why people will want to do hosted Kubernetes and things, 'cause it's easy and you know it gets you. I'm careful that when I use the term production grade, because I know it means different things to different people, but you get something that we can at least loosely turn production grade. >> Yeah, and actually just to be clear, we had a lot of discussions about on-premises, so I guess it's more the managed service rather than the, I'm going to roll all the pieces myself. >> Yeah, but I wonder will we start, and because of price and maybe the ability to tweak the cluster towards your needs and things, whether we might see people taking their first steps on a managed service or a hosted Kubernetes, and then as they scale up then they start to say, well, tell you what we'll start rolling our own, because we're better at doing this now, and then run like, you know, you still have your hosted stuff, but you have some stuff on premises as well, and then we move towards something that's a bit more hybrid. I don't know, but I just wonder if that will become a trend. >> Well Nigel, I mean it's been a busy week. You started off with workshops. I don't know, what did you miss? What's the first, when you go home, back to England, are you going to, and you pop open your browser and start looking at all the session videos and stuff, I don't know, what didn't you get a chance to do here this week? >> So I was kind of, for me it's been the busiest KubeCon I've had and it's robbed me of a lot of sessions, right, and when I remember when I looked at the catalog at the beginning it was like, you know it's one of those conferences where almost every slot there's three things that I want to go to, which is a sign of a good conference. I'm quite interested at the moment in K3s. I actually haven't touched it for a long time, but outside of KubeCon I have had a lot of people talk to me about that, so I will go home and I will hunt down, right, what are the K3s sessions to try and get myself back up to speed, 'cause I know there are other projects that are similar right, but I find it quite fascinating in that it's one of those projects where it started out with like this goal of we'll be for the edge, right, or for IOT or something, and the community are like, we really like it, and actually I want to use it for loads of other things. You have no idea whether it will go on to be like a roaring success, but it. I don't know, so often you have it where a project isn't planned to be something. >> Announcer: Good afternoon attendees. Breakout sessions will begin in 10 minutes. >> But it naturally in the community. >> Announcer: Session locations are listed. >> Take it on and say. >> Announcer: On the noted schedule. >> We're going to do something with it. >> Announcer: On digital signage throughout the venue. >> That wasn't originally planned, yeah. So I'll be looking up K3s as my first thing when I go home, but it is the first thing on a long list, right. >> All right. Nigel, tell us a little bit about, you know, latest things you're doing, msb.com. I know you had your book signing for your book here, had huge lines here. >> Yeah. >> Great to see. So, tell us about what you're doing overall. >> Thank you, yeah. So, I've got a couple of books and I've got a bunch of video training courses out there, and I'm super fortunate that I've reached a lot of people, but a real common theme when I talk to people are like, look, I love your book, I love your video courses, whatever, how do I take that next step, and the answer was always, look, get your hands on as much as possible, okay. And I would send people to like Minikube and to play with Docker or play with Kubernetes and various other solutions, but none of them really seem to be like, a real something that looked and smelled and tasted like production. So I'm working with a start-up at the moment, msb.com, where we have curated learning content. Everybody gets their own fully functioning private free node Kubernetes cluster. Ingress will work, internet-facing load balancers will all work on it, and the idea is that instead of having like a single node development environment on your laptop, which is fine, but you know, you can't really play with scheduling and things like that, then msb.com takes that sort of learning journey to the next level because it's it's a real working cluster, plus we've got this amazing visual dashboard so that when you're deploying stuff and scaling and rolling updates you see it all happening in the browser. And for me as an educator, right, it's sometimes hard for people to connect the dots when you're reading a book or, and I spend hours on like PowerPoint animations and stuff, whereas now in this browser to augment like reading a book, and to augment taking a training video, you can go and get your hands on and have this amazing sort of rich visual experience that really helps you like, sort of, oh I get it now, yeah. >> All right, so Nigel, final question I have for you. I've known you back when we were just a couple of infrastructure guys. You've done phenomenal things. >> Nigel: The glory days. >> With kind of the wave of containers, you're a Docker captain. You know, really well known in the Kubernetes. When you reflect back on something, on kind of this journey we've been on, you look at 12,000 people here, you know Docker has some recent news here, so give us a reflection back on that this journey the whole industry's on. >> Yeah, so I had breakfast with a guy this morning who I wrote my first ever public blog with. He had a blog site and he loaned me some space on his blog site 'cause I didn't even know how to build a blog at the time, and it was a storage blog, yeah, we're talking about EMC and HDS and all that kind of stuff, and I'm having breakfast with him, 14 I think years later in San Diego at KubeCon. And I think, and I don't know if this really answers your question, but I feel like that Kubernetes is almost so, if ubiquitous is the right word or it's so pervasive, and it's so all-encompassing almost, that it is bringing almost the entire community. I don't want to get too carried away with saying this, right, but it is bringing people from all different areas to like a common platform for want of a better term, right. I mean we were infrastructure guys, yourself as well John, and here we are at an event that as a community and as a technology I think it's just, it's changing the world, but it's also bringing things almost under one hood. So I would say anybody, like whatever you're doing, do all roads lead to Kubernetes at the moment, I don't know. >> Yeah, well we know software can actually be a unifying factor. Best term I've heard is Kubernetes is looking to be that universal back plain. >> Nigel: Yeah. >> and therefore, both you know, southbound to the infrastructure, northbound to the application. Nigel Poulton congratulations on the progress. Definitely, everybody makes sure to check out his training online, and thank you for helping us to wrap up our three days of coverage here. For John Troyer, I am Stu Miniman. TheCUBE will be at KubeCon 2020 in both Amsterdam and Boston. we will be at lots of other shows. Be sure to check out thecube.net. Please reach out if you have any questions. We are looking for more people to help support our growing coverage in the cloud native space, so thank you so much for the community, thank you to all of our guests, thank you to the CNCF and our sponsors that make this coverage possible, and thank you to you our audience for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

(techno music) >> Live from Orlando, Florida it's theCUBE, covering Cisco Live 2018, brought to you by Cisco, NetApp and theCUBE's ecosystem partner. >> Okay, welcome back everyone it's theCUBE live here in Orlando, Florida for Cisco Live 2018 I'm John Furrier with theCUBE, my cohost Stu Miniman. So our third day of three days of wall-to-wall coverage, the big story here is the transformation, the power of the network, it's becoming computable, it's a great, great story. Our next guest is Guru Chahal, who is the Vice President of Product, AVI Networks. Welcome back to theCUBE, great to see you. >> Thank you, John. Thanks for having me John and Stuart. It's a pleasure being here again. >> So we just talking before the camera came on about STO cause Stu wants to go there right away, but we've got to hold off on that, but service meshes is certainly going to be a great thing with Kubernetes and containers but the story here is the changing nature and power of the network. Suzzy, who you came on with DevNet, was talking about the success of DevNet has been a combination of great timing, of open-source, hitting the network but making the network programmable, opening up new innovations. This is a really big thing, I want to get your reaction to this because Europe tied into this trend big time. What does that mean for people that are watching this? They're trying to grok the new way. What is this intent-based network? What's this programmable network? Is it the iPhone, kind of moment where for networks, where new apps are coming that we've never seen before? Or is it something different? What's your take? >> That's such a great example John, so just a fundamental transformation that iPhone had on how we think about telephony in general, we're at that sort of moment in the network. And the reason for that, frankly, is how we deploy applications, how we design applications, and where we deploy applications has fundamentally changed. You know 20 years ago, you had one choice to deploy an application and it was that server, right over there, in your data center. And today you can do it as a container, or bare-metal server, a virtual machine, on-prem or one of hundreds of data centers, public cloud data centers all over the world. And then architecturally, everything is moving from these monoliths to microservices, or much more tiny and more manageable components, and what that does to the network is fundamentally different from what's been going on in the network for the past couple of decades. It elevates the position of the network from just connectivity, to something that is fundamental to how these services talk to each other unlike 100 things that live inside a box and talk to each other, now you have 100 things on the network talking to each other. So think about what that does to you from a availability strategy perspective, from a security strategy perspective, from a surface area of security, from a monitoring perspective, I mean the reason why you see, I mean walk the show floor here, so much innovation in the network and the reason for that is instead of an enterprise running 1000 applications, within the next few years each enterprise is going to be running 100,000 applications and their budget is not going up 100 times so you need innovation, you need automation and that's where the intent-based movement comes in. >> So new opportunities are going to be created, new wealth creation, more innovation. What are you guys doing? Take a minute to explain why you guys are here with your company? What are you contributing, what's your role in the ecosystem, what's your product differentiations? What's the story? >> Yeah, great, so we play in the application services space. If you think about the network traditionally people have thought about it as connectivity, which is layer two, layer three, and then network services are the services that the network offers to an application, that's load balancing, it's application security, SSL offload, it's web application firewall and so on. So services that are tied to the application that's basically what our company is about. So we have a fabric-based platform, software only, the fabric can be instantiated on bare-metal appliances, or containers, or virtual machines, all centrally managed, and it's intent-based which means it's policy-driven. So you go to a single place you say, "please I need load balancing capabilities "for this application, I need SSL "and I need to turn on my web application firewall." And no matter where the application is, in Azure, in AWS or on-prem, or a mainframe, the fabric is able to instantiate that service automatically infront without the operator having to worry about where is it, what do I need to do, do I have enough capacity, none of that. >> Guru, in Chuck Robbins' keynote on Monday you talked about kind of the old way, this kind of bespoke, it was silos, it was like, well, oh, you know we have the wiring guys over here doing the physical layer two, layer three, four through seven is over there. Today it's software, up and down the stack, you know, changes a lot, maybe talk a little bit about that dynamic as to how applications, you know intent-based networking really is having, the application doesn't just use, but it's heavily involved with the network. >> So here's the single biggest thing that's driving this change, applications used to be secondary for IT in some sense, certainly infrastructure teams, and infrastructure was primal. And I had my ADCs and load balancers here and my routers and my switches and so on, and this is my infrastructure, now let's figure out how to fit the application on my infrastructure. And that world is gone. That's the old way. You can't hug your load balancers anymore that's (laughs) if you do that today, those days are, if not gone, they're almost nearing an end. And increasingly the infrastructure is going to live for applications. The center world is my need as a business to role out an application quickly, to understand how people are interacting with that application, to make changes to it in real time, and all of infrastructure is now wrapping itself around that notion. So intent-based networking, in our case, intent-based application services is all about how can I, in an automated way, quickly deploy load balancing, application security for applications, no matter where they are, how can I monitor the applications in real time. That's really what the movement is about. >> Well, that's a great point. I'd like to just add and get your thoughts on this, and react to another concept, to add to that is that you've got all that happening, okay, that's because of the cloud and great new tech but then you factor in that the programming models are changing too, so the perfect storm is everything that you've said, but now the expectation of the developer-- >> API. >> With open source-- >> Everything is in API. >> Has to be programmable and it's like the classic, let infrastructure take care of it's business but no one's got to do all this manual work. This is a huge dynamic and I think the DevNet story this year at Cisco Live really puts an exclamation point on the fact that this has got traction. We kind of know, we see open-source but from the networking world it's a whole new, essentially greenfield opportunity. You agree with that? >> Totally, I mean you know there's in most of our largest customers, and by the way we didn't talk about our solar business side, but just to give you a quick flavor for what our customer base looks like we primarily sell to Global 2000, three of the top five banks in the US are our customers, two of the top five banks in ME are our customers, 20% of the Fortune 50 are our customers, we've replaced traditional load balancing solutions and so on. And the primary reason, the number one reason is automation. And by automation, everybody talks about automation, but by automation what our customers mean is infrastructure as API. Simple things. I want to capture all the packets going to that application and I want to do that with a single REST API, I want to talk to an IP endpoint and say here's the REST API, give me all the traffic. Can you do that in your network today? Our customers can. >> What's the alternative, if they don't use APIs? >> Oh yeah, so you've got two choices, one you walk into your data center, turn on the SPAN port take all that traffic, take it to some sort of a monitoring fabric blah, blah, blah, three days later if you're lucky you get traffic. Second approach, call AWS tell them to turn on the SPAN port, and good luck with that. (laughs) So, you know increasingly you frankly don't have much of a choice, you need infrastructure to be-- >> Scale is also a tsunami of data coming in so one time is a massive problem, that's never going to happen, so people are going to give up-- >> Number of events, number of alerts, you know it's speed. Talk about the top three trends that are going on in our customer base, speed, speed, and speed. >> Okay, you've got some great clients. Why are they going with you, and how does someone engage with you guys? What do they do? Do they just call you up and say bring in some software, do I get a box, is it software, how do I configure it, how do they onboard? How do you guys engage with your customers? >> Right, so why do they buy us? Three quick reasons, one amazing automation fabric-approach central management. Two, amazing analytics to your point about great events, we want to help our customers address this deluge of events and things that are happening in the data center and provide great insight, so that's all built in to the product. And three, much more cost effective. I mean these traditional solutions, believe it or not, that have been around for 20 years, they're not just traditional, as in legacy, they're also extremely expensive. Our competitors sell load balancers at 84% gross margins. You know how many of my customers run their businesses at 84% gross margins? Zero. So how can you afford that, right? So those are three big reasons why they buy. How they get engaged with us is they typically have a public cloud project, they'll say alright, like Adobe, "they'll say alright, we need to go to Azure, "move the applications right away." Well that's easy for the CIO to say, in practice, that's a beast, right. So they need to get in there, they need to figure out how am I going to meet application SLAs on Azure, how am I going to do application availability, or security, or monitor these, and they could do a Google search or something and get that connected with us. Two, we're a Cisco partner, Cisco resells us, and Cisco is everywhere. So when people approach their trusted vendor, like Cisco, and say, "Cisco, "I've got this public cloud issue, "a network monitorization issue "and load balancing is a consistent thorn "in my neck, like, what do we do?" And Cisco goes, "oh we've got a great partner, "we resell their technology, I'd love "to help you understand more, and then "they pull us in, and we close." >> Yeah, that's a great point Guru, one of the things we've been talking to a lot of customers, is how do I manage and deal with my network when I don't own a lot of the pieces of the network. And that's the story we've been hearing. Cisco talking about multi-cloud. Up on stage, Chuck Robbins brought Diane Greene out and talked a lot about Kubernetes and STO, we know AVI Networks, I've seen your team at theCUBE con show, John was just at the Copenhagen show, I unfortunately missed that one, I'll be back at the Seattle show. Talk about what your team is doing with Kubernetes and STO, and how does Cisco fit in to that discussion? >> Yes, we love that space it's actually, I think at this point, after public cloud after Azure and AWS in particular, and GCP as well. So after public cloud, is the fastest growing part of our business today and what we've been shipping for over two years now, is an enterprise-class service mesh targeted at, not just Kubernetes, but Kubernetes, OpenShift, Mesos or Consisto, and the beautiful thing is our fabric is just a fabric it can, the same fabric in one corner of the data center could be serving a traditional bare-metal application and another corner of our data center is serving a containerized, a Kubernetes application and what we do there is, we provide both North-South load balancing capabilities, as well as, the East-West load balancing capabilities for that entire cluster. And to give you a sense for scale, our largest customers, we've got large banks and technology companies running us in production with Kubernetes, at the other, at the highest end we've got customers running eight to ten clusters of somewhere between 50 to 100 nodes each. So we're talking about 500 to 1,000 nodes running in both public cloud and on-prem of Kubernetes where we are providing the distributed load balancing capabilities. >> Well that's great. So if you've been doing service mesh for two years, that's pre STO? How does that relate to the STO project? >> Yes, it is, and in sometimes it's still pre STO right, cause I love STO, on slides (laughs) but the era of STO is 2019 and maybe 2020. So it's going to take some time we love it because here's what happens today, this is the problem for solution providers like us, what happens is, we're forced to integrate with Kubernetes, the Kubernetes master service. At some point customers are like, "alright, so you're integrated with Kubernetes, "and this person is integrated, "and this other piece of software integrated." What STO does is it very cleanly separates the network policy from Kubernetes to STO. So we have to integrate only with STO and we are doing that integration right now. So from our perspective these are northbound orchestration systems and policies systems, once STO solidifies, and I expect sometime next year, maybe the middle of next year, maybe late next year, and we're ready for production and then you can continue to use us within the system. >> Yeah Guru, I'm going to have to say you're the hipster service mesh company then, right? You were doing it before it was cool. (Guru, Stu and John laugh) >> Yes and then perhaps we can move-- >> Alright so I got-- >> on to something else >> We love the STO is a total geek conversation but this is super important, I want to get you thoughts on this, I do agree it's definitely got some work to do but there's, it's the number one open-source project within the CNCF, so clearly there's a ton of interest. And a lot of the alpha geeks are going there they see great, great value there. Containers, check. Containers are great. Kubernetes, check, on a good path. STO is interesting cause its service meshes is a concept that kind of ties networking with apps and you guys are in the middle of this. What does that mean for the network engineer out there or for the company, why should they pay attention to this service mesh concept or STO and the role of mircoservices? Clearly microservices makes sense if you're APIing everything you want to have more services developing. but what's going on under the hood? Why is STO getting so much traction in your opinion? >> It's a very simple reason John. So this was my world as a network engineer. I had a few of these applications I would look at them, they're like my little puppy, and I would configure my entire network to support these applications. The world of microservices, and really this new world that we live in, I don't have one of these, I have 100 of these per application, so I have 100,000 of these floating around. I can't do it without using policy. Policy is at the root of all this, intent-based networking, declarative policies, STO, declarative policies, our platform, declarative policies. So the entire world of networking is moving away from, let me go to one of my 50 switches and configure the CLI, to let me define a set of ten policies that we will then apply to 100,000 applications, cause frankly, there's only ten different things I want to do. I don't want to configure a 100,000 endpoints. I just want to do ten things, that's something I can do as a human and that's really what's at the root of this. So it's really intent-based networking sort of at different layers. >> So there's been conversation, we've been obviously talking about this on theCUBE since day one here about, we believe the network engineer, the Cisco customer, if you will, or people getting all of these certifications, they're going to be so much more powerful because there's been a conversation in other press and media around the death of the network engineer (Guru laughs) We should, look they're the mainframe guy-- >> Which iteration of that are we on? 'Cause I hear that every five years. >> They better learn how to code so they don't lose their job. When actually, the network is getting more and more powerful, so what you're talking about, we think connects and validates that the network engineer, the one doing Cyber Ops, data center, service provider, industrial IOT, CCNA, CCIEs, these guys are going to be a fish to water when they hear words like policy, dynamic provisioning these are-- >> Automation, APIs. >> These are concepts they're used to. What's your thoughts on that because this is a kind of a new emerging connect point that DevNet's kind of pointed with DevNet Create and DevNet proper, what are you're thoughts? >> Yeah, listen I have tremendous empathy for our customer base, I used to be a customer on the other side a couple of decades ago, and there's this sort of fashion in Silicon Valley to come up with new innovations and then say, "oh, all those people, they're going to be left behind "and my technology is going to be awesome." I don't subscribe to that, the hunger I see in networking teams to continually add value is unparalleled today. The hunger I see for automation, for learning REST API, STKs, Python, Ansible, interacting with DevNet is unparalleled. And in some sense if that wasn't there, why would you have intent-based networking, why would a vendor like Cisco, a vendor like AVI emerge? Why would we build these amazing things if there wasn't a hunger for this? So, I think the network is going to be extremely important and most of the networking teams today will make that transition. I'm not going to discount the fact that there will be some who will want to hug their load balancers for the next 10 years, and I have bad news for them, there was a time when you could ride it out for five or 10 years before the next tech showed up. Those days are gone, man. The new tech shows up today and then you're like, "no, not going to happen for about 12 or 18 months." And then boom! Everything just changes. >> So what's your advice to that, of those networking engineers out there, those folks do, and that are going to be the power players in this new configuration? What should they do? >> Engage. >> Engage, be the person in the organization that brings in a new technology, never in my entire career, two decades now, have I seen individuals in networking teams at banks, at technology companies, at retailers, at grocery store companies, at radiology centers, you know, go out there and ask questions is there a better load balancer, is there a better switching solution, is there a better X, Y, Z, is there a better way to monitor my apps, and then pull in that, play around with that, call the vendor. You know, traditionally it never used to happen. So I'm excited about it. >> Yeah, and it's awesome it's great. It's a great opportunity to be, the timing is perfect. Alright, final question, actually two questions. What's up for next for you guys at AVI Networks on the road map, what's coming next? And then you're take on the show, what's the vibe, what's it like for the folks who didn't make it to Orlando, what'd they miss? >> So our vision is double down on multi-cloud, it's so real, all our customers, all, almost a 100%, are both on-prem and in AWS or Azure and we're continuing to invest in making that easier through the introduction of several sort of initiatives on the platform including SAS, including increased investments in security. So that's on our vision side. Invest in our partnership with Cisco, as I said Cisco is a reseller and now an investor in our last round of funding, so we're pretty excited about that. And they're excited about being close to a company that frankly, is seeing the kind of traction we're seeing. So that's what we're doing over the next three to five years. Show floor, I've got to say 80% of it sounds like, give me your data and I will provide you insights. And that's trivializing that a little bit but I think it goes back to the point, John, you made earlier, where things are moving so fast, so much is changing that there's just an increased excitement around technologies which help you automate, which help you provide better insight, which help you just manage this. >> And then final question, one more, it just popped into my head, got to get out there. Programmability, obviously we believe it is happening, APIs are happening, microservices are right around the corner, you guys are first-generation service mesh and production. What are some of those new apps we're going to see? If the network programmable is first-generation, like an iPhone was for telephony, what kinds of network apps, app-networking apps, are we going to see in the new paradigm that DevNet's pioneering? >> So, actually two kind of apps I'm already seeing in my customer base right now. The first one is self-service and provisioning apps. So as soon as the network becomes programmable the first thing networking teams do, this is a little bit counter intuitive, remember the old world where networking teams were like, "my network, don't touch it." The first thing they're doing now is, they're saying "oh, it's programmable? "Let me build a sandbox for you quickly. "You do it, don't call me. "Don't call me. "Just do your thing, if you hit " the bounds of the sandbox, then "call me and we'll talk about it." So, self-service automation provisioning is the first kind of applications I'm seeing emerging. And the second one is monitoring. You know the age-old problem, I don't know what's going on. So people are building these amazing solutions, I mean our, I thought people would be logging into our CLI or UI and getting insights. No, they're taking my data, right now I counted about 15 upstream solutions from Tetration, to Splunk, to other SIMs, Datadog, AppDynamics, New Relic, they're exporting this wherever they can. And so those are the two classes. Self-service automation and monitoring. >> And this all is underpinning value for safe security monitoring and scripts is right around the corner. Anyway thanks for coming. Okay, AVI Networks' VP of Product here inside theCUBE day three, it's theCUBE coverage here. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman at Cisco Live in Orlando. Stay with us, we'll be right back. (techno music)

>> Male Narrator: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark. It's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018, brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome back, this is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of KubeCon 2018. Part of the CNCF Cloud Native Computing Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation, this is theCUBE. I'm John Furrier with co-host, with Lauren Cooney, founder of Spark Labs, helping me out as analyst this week, great to have our next guest, shared acquaintance, Abby Kearns, Executive Director of Cloud Foundry Foundation, Cube alumni, welcome back! >> Thanks for having me back again. >> Got your voice, you're losing your voice from all the talking you're doing here on Cloud Foundry. >> Cloud cloud cloud all the time. >> So we were talking yesterday, I want to get you on because you guys have done some research. >> Yeah. >> On cloud, and we were chatting about, I should give you a plug on the opening segment yesterday about some of the things you're finding about Kubernetes. Certainly in our bubble, it's so passe now, we're moving on to STO and CUBE Flow, but you have research that, you know, is mainstream tech, outside of the bubble we live in, is actually now evolving into the first inning of Kubernetes, if you will. What does the research say, what's that all about? >> Well, the research says, trying not to apologize already, my voice is all over the place, so we've been tracking containers for now almost three years and I remember three years ago, everyone's like, "Okay, well we've talked about Docker for years now, "it's so passe," but when you got beyond the bubbles where tech is, people were just like starting to think about it. And so containers are just now getting to where people are either using them or using them as proof of concept. But Kubernetes has become a really big part of the conversation the last year, and it's continuing to take it by storm, and so we're starting to see organizations that are interested in it, but in terms of adoption and awareness beyond just the core central, there's still a massive education gap there. And a really big opportunity to educate people, not only on these tools, but what they really want to know is how do these tools help them get through their day and accomplish their work? >> So essentially, there's a lag of sequence of early adopters, fast followers, and now mainstream. Mainstream are getting accustomed to containers, now hitting up on Kubernetes, we're still pushing the front line. >> Well I think, you know, we are, and I think this is one of my observations as well, Abby, is that we look at these technologies, right? And I'm in the hallways, and I'm talking to folks in the cab line and things along those lines, and they're just here to actually learn about the technology, about Kubernetes, they actually don't understand it fully yet, and they're trying to figure out really what to do with it, and their companies have sent them here. And then it's, you know, you talk to the folks that are, you know, kind of were here for the long haul and were there at the beginning of CNCF and things along those lines, and they're like, "Oh yeah, everyone's adopted it," right? So you've got these two spectrums and I think my question to you is, what do you think is needed for this to really cross the chasm? >> Well, I'll actually answer that with another piece of data We do global research, and one of the things we found, we ask about, "What are your priorities for the next "couple of years?" and resoundingly across every persona, so developers, operators, IT decision makers, executives, their top three priorities for the next two years is continuous delivery. So let's think about that: continuous delivery for me is a priority; building that culture change is a priority; and so the tech is there to supplement that. But the real work, the hard work, is a priority, and I think that's exactly where it should be. So as these organizations really implement that continuous delivery methodology, they're going to pull these technologies in to supplement that. >> So it's not a technology problem, it's a people problem. But your point is, to the industry, let's be realistic and understand the segments that are adopting at what pace, matching education or evangelism or transformation at the right piece of the journey. >> Yeah, I mean all this tech, even Cloud Foundry, is a supplemental tool. >> Yeah. >> The hard work is really continuous delivery, building in that culture change, making software a core part of your business, making technology part of your day-to-day conversation, and that heavy lift has to come in order for any of these technologies to be successful. >> You guys have done a great job, I just want to say, Cloud Foundry, I want to give you some props. Congratulations on the work you've done. Take a minute to talk about some of the success. You're an ingredient in a lot of successful applications out there; what are some of the stats? How many people are using Cloud Foundry? What's some of the uptick, share some of the numbers of the performance with Cloud Foundry. >> Well, I mean we're in use of over half the Fortune 500 across every industry; what's been so phenomenal and so awesome about Cloud Foundry, and we really saw this at Summit, is all the industries that are using this to change. But what was interesting about our last summit, which we just had a couple of weeks ago, is all of these companies want to get on stage and not talk about the tech; they want to talk about the culture change. You know, hearing Boeing get on stage and say, "Actually, you know what the real work is "is the transformation we had to undergo "in order to do this work," and hear that over and over again, and it's so awesome to be part of that change because technology needs to be there to supplement that change and be part of that. But it's really great to see this come into fruition, like hearing the stories from Home Depot and Comcast and US Air Force and how it's fundamentally changing their businesses and helping them get out the door at scale, I mean that's really where the cool stuff happens. >> You've had great success there, and a lot of end users too, it's not like a bunch of one-offs. >> No. >> So how's the summit last week in Boston? >> It was amazing. We had half of our attendees at our summit are end users. And you know, the big high I get is like, hearing everyone talk about what they're doing and "This is what I did!" and stuff you've never heard of. Like, "Oh, I didn't realize you were using that," and "Oh, that's a really great way to use it "in very inventive ways," and so it really just refreshes you, like "Oh, this is what matters." The users and how they're using it and what they're going to do with the tech, I mean, isn't that why we're all here, right? And it's great, and they're creating such amazing technologies that it makes you energized about what's going on. >> Yeah, and I think it's amazing to me, cause I was actually at the Cloud Foundry summit as well, and there was one customer, I can't remember the name that got on stage, and they were using like, they had 2100 end users or something like that, developers, their company actually using Cloud Foundry, and I think that was the number, and I think it was really tremendous to see how many people inside of one company are actually using the technology across the board. It was really great. >> I mean, this is all about, I mean we're at a modern software era, and this is a whole new guard coming on board, and it's a whole new architecture. >> And it's a whole new way of thinking about it. Like, you know right now, we talk about how tech and there's a gap and we're pushing the tech and people are going to get there, but it's not going to be too long before the enterprises are pushing back and saying, "Hey, this is what I need, here's where I am, "I'm running at a scale you didn't think about yet." You know we're running, we have a lot of users that are running tens of thousands and thousands of applications: what about when they're in the hundreds of thousands of applications, and what does that look like? And they're saying, "Well I'm going to do this, "and here's what I need to do." >> There are going to be a lot of microservices. Abby, I got to ask you to end the segment. Thanks for coming on, I know you were rushed to come on, I appreciate you taking the time, you're super busy. What's your priorities for next year? Obviously you got a lot of successes under your belt. What's next, what are you going to check off the list this year? >> Well, inner operability is a big theme for me this year. And what does that mean, that means building bridges to other technologies and other projects, like the amazing work that's happening in CNCF and all those great technologies, so making sure that when those technologies mature, how do we bring those to the enterprise, and then really continuing to work on an ecosystem and work with our members and to really get more contributors around the table. >> Awesome, developers and contributors, dev plus contribute, thanks for coming on. >> My pleasure. >> Thanks Abby. >> You're contributing your insight and I know you've got the voice going, but appreciate you taking the time, so Kube conversations here at theCUBE here in Denmark for KubeCon 2018, part of CNCF. I'm John Furrier with Lauren Cooney, we'll be right back after this short break. (techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Barcelona, Spain. It's theCUBE, covering Cisco Live 2018. Brought to you by Cisco, Veeam, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone. Welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage here, exclusive coverage of Cisco Live 2018 in Europe. We're in Barcelona, Spain for theCUBE Day one wrap of our two days of wall-to-wall coverage. I'm John Furrier with my co-host Stu Miniman, and we're going to break down day one, Stu? >> I can go for a couple more hours, who else we got? >> But Stu, we'll go live for a marathon session. No, let's wrap it up. We got a full day tomorrow, got some great guests here. At the keynote, Cisco laying out their vision and the story's kind of coming together, and I think Cisco has clarity. So my takeaway, I learned a lot. I learned that Cisco is not just talking, they're walking. They got a lot of work to do. I think that the signs of great progress with Cisco, Stu: one is Rowan put out a great keynote that looks forward not back. They didn't lean on their base and saying we're going to milk this cow until it's dead, meaning the networking engineers and the position. They're looking forward and putting a vision out there that says here's how the network will transform applications and they had a lot of use cases from IoT to multi-cloud and more. And two, they're cracking the code on IoT because they bought Jasper, which is back haul, essentially using cellular to the classic OT market, which is a classic end-to-end. To me, that was a revelation to me and I think that might be the unique creative thinking that could bring IoT into IT and transform the highly unsecure IoT WiFi IP market because anyone can throw a smart light bulb or whatever device. Full processing, multi-threading capabilities, and that can be hijacked and taken over and spewing malware and ransomware and everything else in between. >> John, if anything what I critique a little bit is he gives the vision of 2050. Go to a show like Amazon, they're like hey builders, here's what we have for you today that's really cool. And I think, we heard a lot from Cisco today, the cool things they have. Big acquisitions like AppD. We've talked a lot about, in the IoT discussion today, you talked about it was a $1.4 billion acquisition they made in that space. Here in the DevNet Zone, they're not talking about the future, they're talking about what they're building today. >> Well Stu-- Stu, you know how I feel about this. I kind of roll my eyes when I get that kind of futuristic with no meat on the bone. If you're going to have sizzle, you better have some steak on the grill. That's the critique for me is I'm looking and squinting through the hype and use cases. Oh, we got the future's going to be upon us to reality. What do they got now? That's the progress that I see and the signals that are showing to me are DevNet, active transformation of classic network engineer operator to programmer, one. Two, Susie Wee pointed out a new concept that we love called Net DevOps, which is programming the network for microservices and these new services with Kubernetes as the linchpin. Heard a little bit about Google, so in line with Google. Of course, Cisco's got billion dollar partners in the ecosystem. The certainly great fertilizer if you will, for this growth. They got a lot of things coming together. I think the challenge for Cisco and the strategic imperative that I see for the management team is show progress now. Now you've got the vision, that's the sizzle. Show the stink, that's what's happening now if they can bring that Amazon like mojo, I would think they'd hit a home run. >> John, we've got the Learning Lab behind you in DevNet area here. It's the first time in two whole days I haven't seen it packed and that's just because 15 minutes ago the World of Solutions reception opened. They've got snacks, they've got beer and wine, the music's going over there, so everybody's kind of moved over there but this area's been hopping. A day before the rest of the show really started, before the key notes. Absolutely, I'd love to have Susie talk about the four year transformation internally. We'd watched some of the people inside Cisco beating the drum, talking about making change. Cisco's made investment in Open Source. They've tried to move the needle some, but this developer wave, absolutely, they need to be a part of it. I think back to John Chambers talking about all the adjacencies, some of the failed acquisitions, flip acquisition, some the set top box type stuff. IoT, is the message they've had. I think you laid it out well. They had a good vision upfront but the market needed to mature some. Now we're ready for this to be real. Partner ecosystem, absolutely. Cisco is still a behemoth in this space and they've got strong partnerships a lot of way. There's a lot of transitions. There's some things they need to be careful about how they make the moves, but absolutely, there's interesting times here. >> Stu, you and I always love to talk about this because the network is where the bottleneck has always been. You mentioned in one of the questions, I forget who the guest was, what's going on with some of defined networking? Well, guess what, microservices changes that game. With Kubernetes now as a integration layer, it kind of splits the line between app developers and under the hood software engineering, all the way down to network engineering. Those are okay personas, but now you have policy programmability at the network level that services could take advantage of Those app developers that are slinging APIs, doing no JS, they're used to IOs. They're used to programming these functions. This kind of feels a little bit like serverless is coming to the table. I haven't heard that word here, but kind of getting that vibe. >> Absolutely, we haven't heard serverless. We have talked about containers some. Obviously, we talked about Kubernetes in area we've won, but the multi-cloud is still a little bit early for where Cisco plays at that M and O piece of it, Cisco has had a number of plays over the years and they make an acquisition. We'll see how it is. My friends in the networking space, the line is the single pain of glass, John, is spelled P-A-I-N. I'm glad I didn't hear that term from Cisco. >> John: I heard it once only. >> In general, they understand some of the challenges. They touch a lot of the pieces and they're not being overly dogmatic. They're not bashing the public Cloud. Yes, they have a lot more revenue in the data centers in the service providers, but they're not coming out here as a Cloud denier. >> That's a great point for a couple things. You know how I feel about multi-cloud. I think multi-cloud's BS right now. I think it's one of those moon shots down the road and I don't think anything's going to happen in multi-cloud for awhile. Your "True Private Cloud" report on Wikibon.com kind of validates that. The thing about the pain of class, Cisco actually has a lot of that on the management side. What needs to happen is that pain of glass management has to move up the stacks, Stu. This is where I think the test will be for them. That's going to be key. The thing that I did not hear that I'm surprised about is I didn't hear anything about data-driven anything. There's a lot of stuff being talked about. Programmable networking, kind of implies data. You even heard the IoT general manager talk about IoT feeds AI. I think AI's fed by data. Certainly, IoT supports data. I didn't hear about how their data is driving either policy, automation, not enough of that. I think that's a weak area, I'll say, they've got to do some work on. >> John, some of that I think is just terminology cause if you look inside the intent-based networking pieces that Cisco talks about, David Goeckeler this morning in the key note. He said it's about learning and security. Learning, it's all about data. How do we train those models? They didn't throw out the AI and MO buzzwords out there, but underneath, that's what's happening. It is about data, just networking people don't talk about data nearly as much as the compute or storage people. You're right, serverless, how will that impact the network? Because underneath infrastructure matters. Teagan's going to have to move around a lot more. I would've expected to hear some mention of it. >> Well, you made a good point, I agree with you. I love this intent-based networking. It really changes the conversation. If you say, what is that, what is intent in context? Huge conversation point, huge area to explore. This truly will make an adaptive network, a flexible network. It'll make it programmable. That's what people want. App developers need to have the services on the network side and they need the automation. Really, really key point. Any other learnings for you, Stu? >> Really John, it's going through that shift in model as we talked about in the intro. Cisco heavily moving towards that software model. Riaz who they brought in, heavy software background. You've got that balance of Cisco has strong history. They are trusted. Network provider, Trust and risk are absolutely the number one things that customers hear about. Security is something they bang on, but they need to undergo those transformations. People like Susie, like Riaz, coming in, helping to drive what's happening there. It's been nice to see very different from when the last time I came to Cisco, very heavy gear, and people plugging and running around, dealing with all those challenges. You think back to customers always-- What do they spend, 70 to 80% on keeping the lights on? Most of the activities we talk about here aren't the, oh, how do we keep the lights on? It's about growing the business and transforming the business, which is the imperative for CIOs today. >> The other thing I liked today is we had storage on, IBM and NetApp with a Cisco partner and ecosystem managing executives. Here's the thing that I learned and I'm happy to see this. You see storage going through the haves and have nots. There is a line going on, maybe its NV, NVFE over-- >> Stu: NVME over Fabrics. >> MVME over Fabric is causing a line that's going to define history, either on the wrong side of history or the right side. We're seeing storage start-ups struggling. We're seeing a lot of companies that we knew that went public, going out of business, start-ups cratering. But there's winners. Hearing the Cisco guys with NetApp and IBM, you're starting to see the storage vents who continue to make it, doing well and they're differentiating. What Cisco has actually done masterfully in my opinion, is they've balanced the ecosystem with the storage guys so that they can let everyone win. It's like a race car. Do you want the Lamborghini or the Ferrari or Porsche? You have different versions of storage. Each one can stand on their own and use Cisco and the better mousetrap wins, the better engine, will win for the use cases of the storage guys. Seeing kind of some swim lanes for storage. That's a good sign, Stu, for Cisco. >> Yeah, absolutely. That's how Cisco really drove that wave of converged infrastructure. I heard from lots of the partners at the (mumbles). CI, even though it's not the sexiest thing anymore cause it's over eight years old now, we've been talking about it, billions of dollars, that's what drove UCS, Cisco has a little bit of fear that they missed out on some of the core verbalization so they're not going to miss the container trend. They're not going to miss microservices. They're all over these pieces. But absolutely, they understand the value of ecosystems and they're very smart about how they target that. >> I agree with you, they got the container magic going on. DevNet certainly is looking good from a developer's standpoint. We will be covering the DevNet Create Event, which is a non-Cisco ecosystem. It's a new territory that Susie Wee has taken down, which is to get real Cloud native developers that aren't necessarily in the ecosystem, so that's going to be a positive. The thing I want to ask you, Stu, to end day one wrap up because this is kind of coming up as the NVME over Fabric. What's the impact of Cisco because we see the impact on the market place, with David Floyer would be chiming away if he was here, but I'd like to get your thoughts because you covered it closely, how is that going to help Cisco? Does it hurt Cisco, does it enable them, is it a game changer? What's the impact of NVME over Fabric? >> Cisco, remember not just a networking company, they're a compute supplier with UCS here. They have the M5, they have their latest that they have. Cisco's all over this, they're involved. It's how do I really bring that HPC kind of environment we've been talking about in the networking space. RDMA options out there. iWARP and Roce and NVME over Fabrics is going to be able to give me even higher speed, really low latency, getting scuzzy out of the way, which has been something that we've been trying to do for over a decade now in the storage world. I don't think-- We talked to Eric Herzog this morning and I really agree with him. This is evolutionary and this is not something that's catching anyone by surprise. It's not like-- >> It's on their radar. >> We're going from wire to wireless, or hey, this is now ethernet instead of token ring. >> So not a massive shift. >> It is similar to disk and Flash. It's absolutely, it's the next generation and there will be companies that implement it better, but we've all seen it coming. All the big guys are involved in it. Cisco, it relates to them and their ecosystem, and you expect them to not be a huge shift. >> One of the things we did not hear about. It's not a main theme here, it's certainly an undercurrent. It's certainly mainstream in the tech industry, both on the enterprise and emerging tech, certainly on AI and software, Stu, is the role of open source software. Not a lot going on here. I looked for sessions, I didn't see any birds of a feather or any meetups around open source. I know it's a DevNet show, Cisco show. DevNet creates a little bit more open source with Cloud found. We've interviewed folks like that and others. But if they're going to be talking to Google, and we're talking about Kubernetes, you cannot ignore the role of open source in the Cisco ecosystem. Your thoughts. Miss, not relevant to the show, kind of the back burner? Maybe Cisco's boiling something up? What's happening with their role and impact with open source? >> John, we heard that there's a presentation tomorrow in STO, they're working with Google on that. I'm not surprised not to see heavy open source in here. It would fit into the Cloud messaging, absolutely Cisco. On that Kubernetes train. We talked about in the containers that ecosystem when Docker announced the networking pieces, Cisco was right up there, wanted to make sure they're there. Cisco's doing it. John, they've had middling success to where they've been able to roll that into their products. We've covered a lot of it because we're big proponents of it but the typical customer here, I don't think that they're like oh hey, I didn't see this. There's other places where those communities, the builders and the contributors in those environments know where Cisco goes. >> Cisco's got billions of dollars they've got to focus on that I agree, but open source is important. You know, Stu, we think Kubernetes could possibly unlock the multi-cloud path. We're constantly watching it. I think it's important to them, they have to be there. They're talking Kubernetes. They're talking about that line in the stack that creates an app developer, very cohesive app developer ecosystem, and then under the hood, engineering, software engineering mindset. They got to play. If you're going to play with Google in multi-cloud, Google's all in open source. They want to be on Amazon, they got to be open source. They got to be there, so we'll see. We'll see how it goes. Okay, day one wrap up here. theCUBE, live in Barcelona for exclusive coverage of Cisco Live 2018. We'll be here all day tomorrow as well. Thanks for watching, I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman for Cisco Live 2018 in Europe. Thanks for watching. (techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas. It's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017 Brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, everyone. This is a special live coverage here in Austin, Texas with theCUBE with KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. I'm John Furrier with my co-host Stew Minniman. Our next guests Mike Barrett, senior project manager at Red Hat and Brian Gracely, director of strategy, Red Hat. Guys, welcome to theCUBE. Welcome back, Brian. >> Thanks. >> Thanks. >> Alright, so Red Hat. I was at re:Invent last week and they want the Red Hat stamp of approval. A lot of customers, you guys have had a huge track record in all the large enterprises. Tier 1, now with cloud gain What's going on? OpenShift has been a big momentum point for you guys Give us the update. What's the status? How are you guys taking that Red Hat stamp of approval value with OpenShift? >> Well, even if we just start from where AWS was, so we were there last week. We're seeing a ton of customers who were Red Hat enterprise Linux customers picking that up, moving it into AWS. So we're seeing that footprint migrate, which is great. We had a huge announcement with AWS around extending their services back into OpenShift through what we call the open service broker. So, basically, think about putting AWS services in your data center or at least making it virtually look like your data center. Those things themselves are huge 'cause now customers don't have to say "Is it like all cloud, public cloud, "or all private cloud?" It's like hybrid cloud is there today, right now. >> Yeah. This started for us back in 2015 I remember the first five minutes of every customer conversation was "How do you pronounce Kubernetes?" >> John: (laughs) >> And 2016 was pretty much your choice of "How do I use containers?" And then the tail end of 2016, it got exciting, right? People were doing big numbers on deployments. 2017 was an unbelievable year for us. I mean, you name the market sector we have penetrated it pretty deeply with Kubernetes technologies, so it's been a great year. >> You guys have been really, Brian, I remember when we were working together I remember, what? Three or four years ago cloud-native we were kicking it around. We were joking with Lou Tucker earlier, "Hey, three years ago. Remember in Vancouver in open stack, when we were talking about how this could really be the land grab? And we were kind of pontificating. But I got to ask you specifically, you were early on cloud-native. You guys certainly saw it coming, as you always, always do in Red Hat, but what changed in your mind? What surprised you? What happened? You kind of called it out. It played out almost exactly as you said. Are you surprised that cloud-native and the whole pass folding into... How did it turn out in your mind? >> I think what it was and it is a little bit of a surprise 'cause you're trying to think what's going to happen in the future. I think what ended up happening and we hear this from pretty much every customer is we're going to change what our user experience is going to be. So if you're Hilton Hotels today, your user experience is a mobile phone with a digital key. Those folks are using Kubernetes We're seeing banks using Kubernetes, airlines, trains. All of them are like I want to be mobile I want my user experience to be better than it was before. I want to deal with like spikes in demand and stuff. What's been really surprising is, you would've thought okay, those aren't Silicon Valley companies, but all of those companies are using Kubernetes. So the technology, the community has made it simple to use. They've adopted containers like crazy. Which has been, we've seen a little bit of that with docker but it's accelerated. That's been the big trend we've seen. People want to change their customer experience, and containers make it easier and Kubernetes makes it scalable. >> Mike, I got to get your take on this, because he's bringing up a good point about the mobile phone. Software is now the product of the company. No one goes into a bank anymore, there's tellers around sure, but the app is the interface. The software is the product. >> Mike: It is. >> It's not IT anymore. It's actually a whole new business model. I mean it sounds cliche but that's actually happening. >> Mike: For OpenShift, it's always been about developer velocity even before it was about Kubernetes. It was about helping people bring new ideas to market through software. And the interesting thing about a CADs and a PASs and that debate in the industry on which would survive. Our take was that, you can build whatever you want, if you have the right technologies and the right solution and that you shouldn't have to make that choice. If you want to just launch containers, then just launch containers. If you want to developer experience, have that developer experience, but they're not two different things. >> One of the things that's been beaten around for the last couple of years is customers want to have really, as much of the same stack in their own data center as they have in the cloud. You know talked about Brian start talking about Linux everywhere. Of course Linux is everywhere. It's been very prevalent at the edge. How much of that stack needs to be the same? How much is okay different? How does Kubernetes fit into that? Mike maybe we can start with you. >> For Kubernetes, we've been asked a lot. How do we feel about the announcements of all the cloud providers now offering to manage Kubernetes service, and we love it. There are certain like Uber and Lyft. I'm sure Uber wishes Lyft wasn't there, but in a platform technology space. You want people to gravitate towards the technology. And now that we have that debate over and so many people are offering Kubernetes. People are willing to move forward with their careers around that Kubernetes. They're willing to bring their whole clientele and their corporations to Kubernetes, and we are in a good early adopter, early mover position to really help them with that. >> Explain that a little bit more because before if I wanted Kubernetes, well I could go get OpenShift. Where cater platform, that's Kubernetes but I'm using Azure, if I'm using Google Cloud, I'm using AWS. Where do you fit? Where do they fit? How does that relationship work. >> So it's a container platform right, and containers are movable images. The thing that people forget about is part of the trick of working with containers is how do you introduce change? We just talked about how we have to introduce developer velocity. You need a hook in front of it and a user experience in front of it that helps you deal with these containers. Build them, deploy them, wake up when they change, connected to the GitHub code repositories. All these different scenarios. Kubernetes is an engine and you can put it in a truck or you can put it in a Ferrari, and we just happen to put it in OpenShift. >> I got to ask you guys, what of the point about the whole industry comes and pass all this stuff. It's interesting, you guys didn't take the bait in that debate and one of the things I said at re:Invent. Brian I'd like to get your thoughts on this question too is I said at re:Invent to Andy Jazzy. Look all the fudd around cloud specifically Amazon has been debunked. It never happened and we just kept on executing. My point was, if you pay attention to the fudd and their rhetoric in the industry, and not be practical about what's going on. You can loose sight of the value groups, so I got to ask you the question. What has been debunked about OpenShift? I'll give you a chance to say it because I've heard over the years. We've heard many come oh, OpenShift. Share your thoughts because now we have enough history say look at, you're successful. You got great customers. What's been debunked all that fudd? >> I think when it comes down to is there's a lot of companies who get wrapped up in our technology is going to change the world. You need to adapt to our technology, whether it was a platform or a container thing. We got humbled. We got humbled about three or four years ago because the original OpenShift while it was great, it was simple for developers. Just was not getting the adoption that we wanted. We made a huge choice to say we're going Kubernetes. That was crazy back then. Now it was crazy to think you were going to partner with Google, who had never done Open Source in the open before. They were a cloud, we were a software provider like but we wanted the technology hook, line and sinker, and then we were really pragmatic with customers. Mike spends a huge amount of his time, going out and talking to customers going what do you want to do. I think when you do that and Amazon is the same way right, Andy says the same thing like listen to your customers. When you listen to customers, they tell you their problems and you're not religious about the technology and you're willing to make changes like that's how you can be successful and ultimately that's how OpenShift evolved. We embraced Kubernetes when the other thing wasn't working and now it's given us a huge advantage. >> Mike give us some color to that because you guys didn't get caught up with OpenShift into trying to line up with the industry rhetoric at the time. You just got down and dirty, and I bet on Kubernetes, by the way great bet. Hey what are customer's saying? What are the (indistinct speaking) workers? When customers talk, they don't say I want a pass layer. They don't say that but what do they say? How did you get there? >> At the end of the day, it's true that they want a application right. They want a service, they wanted to deploy a service, but the nuance to that is that how you deliver the platform will dictate the application or architecture that you're allowed to have. And what was happening in the market at the time it was a very narrow scope or types of apps that they were trying to provide. What we found was that we have a very large green field environment in those customers that are revenue generating apps. And they had a different application pattern than this micro services and this pure cloud-native. You always want to be able to do both, and we were the only one in the market that was helping you do both. Great and less super, congratulations. I want to get that out, I think you guys have a great accomplishment that's good job with the two days at good spot. Results, obviously is what they are but going forward where are we today. What's next? What's happening? I heard in the key note. I didn't hear several. I heard pluggable architectures and I heard service mesh. Okay you got my attention, what does that mean? I actually wrote down service mesh. So now that's the big thing. Is it going to redefine, reimagine? So these are cool concepts, how did that relate to OpenShift? >> Well from a pluggable perspective right, there was a time when people said, "I want to build a structure platform, "make it simple to get stuff." That model is blown up. That's where Kubernetes is gone. Make everything composable right, if you want like OpenShift brings together a lot but it's pluggable. You can integrate with a ton of the people that are here for customer choice, and then what we're learning is people are saying I'm learning how to build these distributed applications. I'm learning how to build them. But I need help, it's very hard to translate what you can do in Silicon Valley to what you can do in Cleveland or Austin or Boston or something. And so things like service meshes and STO and all these things are basically saying let me give you enough of a framework to build these cool applications. Don't make your developers have to do so much. Build some things into Kubernetes. Build them around this distributor architecture. Make it easier so that when the business goes, "Hey I want to try something new." developers don't go, aww I got to reinvent the wheel. It's like, oh there's a bunch of scaffolding there. I can build a building from that. >> And you guys have a product there, a state of the art. >> We do, obviously everything we do is going to be upstream. So we've been working very heavily with STO. We've been working with Onvoy which is coming out of Lyft. That's the cool thing right. Technology coming out of Lyft is now in the open source community. We can use it to help banks. We can use it to help insurance companies, like that's what's going on there. >> Mike one of the things we were looking at coming to this show is talk about complexity in the space. So many projects, how do you balance having an opinionated solution that hopefully helps customers through some of the main things verses giving them the flexibility to meet what their business needs. >> Yeah I think Brian touched on it and that's at the essence why Kubernetes is so successful as an open source community. If you look at any component of it, it is layerable, it's pluggable, it has defined APIs and interfaces where you can remove stuff. And that allows different businesses to come in and be extremely successful in the ecosystem without taking out the entire platform. And that API compatibility, those folks are what we look for and what we're offering to our customers. If our customer is invested in say NSX networking. They can use NSX networking with OpenShift. There's just a variability of mix and match. I think the last 12 months, 18 months have told us like opinionated, went too far. I mean essentially everybody who's made announcement on Kubernetes said, yeah we tried opinionated, didn't work. And that's where we are today, people have come back around to composable and we've seen it for three or four years, and that's what customer's want. They want it to be simpler but they still want some flexibility whether it's a vendor they want to work with or just a deployment model they want to work with. So you guys probably have more customers than almost anyone in this space. Any trends or data you can share as to what are the most success customers doing. What pitfalls should you avoid? >> The leading sectors for us so far has been government surprisingly, we provide an SE Linux layer on top that most people don't and that's very attracting to those types of customers. After that financial services, insurance industry in particular. Pharmaceutical type, an awesome trend right now is the energy around Kubernetes for HPC and GPU type computing. That's attracting oil and gas, that's attracting marketing analysis. >> Yeah there's a bunch around planes, trains and automobiles and here's what's cool about it. We'll look at BMW. BMW was working on next generation apps in their cars and then we look at Volvo, and Volvo is looking at how do you modernize their existing supply chain to be able to either just have a better sales experience. So same industry attacking different parts of their install base and so forth. So that for us has been really interesting. One day, you'll talk to a company that wants to build a mobile app and reshape their interface. And the next time, the next one wants to rebuild their back office system and that's what OpenShift has been able to do and have been successful. >> Mike Barrett, Brian Gracely, thanks for coming on theCUBE. Great to have you on. Obviously Red Hat continues to be a leader in open source, everyone contributed across the board. From day one and great success on OpenShift. Good bet on Kubernetes. >> Thank you. >> Nice to see those bets come home isn't it. >> Absolutely. >> (indistinct speaking) meet a lot of naysayers at the beginning. Love Kubernetes, good job, congratulations. Live coverage here at KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. I'm John Furrier. Stew Minniman live. After this short break, be right back. (uptempo techno music)