>>from the Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a cube conversation. >>Everyone. Welcome back to the Cube's coverage of AWS Summit Online. Virtual Conference Is the Virtual Cube doing the remote? Interviews from our studio in Palo Alto? I'm John Furrier, host of the Cube. We're here with our quarantine crew. We're getting all the interviews out there. Also covering all the greatest in the cloud. We're in the cloud or in the coverage. Our got a great guest here practitioner who's really riding the innovation wave at the same time, taking advantage of the scale of a ws and putting into practice. Chris Foster, who's the CEO of TC Energy. Chris, Thanks for spending the time to come on the Cube. Appreciate it. >>Pleasure, John. Thanks for the opportunity. >>So you've got a great innovation story. That's something that we've been reporting a lot on is how companies can really reinvent, reset, reinvent, grow and put things in place from a Dev Ops cloud scale perspective. You doing it within the energy area. Take a minute to first explain what TC energy is and your role. >>Yeah, for sure, John TC Energy. You know, we're one of the biggest energy companies in North America. So the fastest way to explain it, You know, we like to think we provide the energy that you know in a enables and powers people's lives and about one in four of every molecules that gets delivered in North America. That's us on my role there. I'm very fortunate I >>lead the the >>I s team I have done since January 1st of 2019. Um, and our AWS journey started a little bit before that. I've had the pleasure of sort of jumping on the ah, the exciting part of it. I like to think where we've got a lot of that enabled and we're moving toe a lot of the innovation phases of that implementation. >>I love the innovation story. We love talking about how the new reality that's upon us certainly were in this covert crisis where people are actually seeing the impact at scale problems. You have a job where your product really cannot have disruption, right? At the same time, there is a large scale to it. And so as you guys think about what's going on on the pressure under at the same time, you can't just cut project. You can just cut costs for cutting costs sake. They're actually really needs to be an investment or doubling down in this case, take us through that that process because if you're on the cloud native wave and the AWS way, which you are on, you've been rolling out thinking about Dev ops. You ever thinking about agility? But now, as these new pressures emerge and even more new realities, certainly not a new normal. I hate the term, but it's the people using it. It's a new reality, and that is the right projects need to be funded because of the consequences of not having everything in place. This >>is >>where cloud shines, and this is where innovation and good management kind of comes into play. Can you share your perspective on that? >>Yeah. Be happy to John. You know, safety is our number. One concern always has been, always will be. And so, you know, we we look at everything we do from that lens of doing things safely and reliability as well. Of course, it's not just the safety in the way people would you know, I think about every day. It's also the reliability of that energy people rely on every day. And that has to be almost in our in our thoughts and then everything that we do. Um so I mean, as an example, I would say, you know, some of the, you know, around the periphery of what we did with our AWS implementation. We also took a hard look at our network implementations and how things were working in the background, how we were connected up. And that's one of the reasons that when we transitioned, you know, literally we went from a hey, we should start thinking about working from home sort of on a Wednesday, Thursday, and by Monday, the entire company was working from home, right? And that was the story for a lot of folks. I think on it was seamless. You know, we were not just able todo Obviously the primary focus was safety, reliability, and of course, you know, that was what preoccupied people in the early days we went even beyond that, I would say very quickly we were actually talking to people about, you know, I asked projects that didn't reach the criticality of safety and reliability, but was still important. And we were telling our stakeholders the delivery dates haven't changed. I mean, we were working in the office on Friday. We're working up home on Monday. No big deal. >>So what? The agility piece of that? Because I think that puts an exclamation point around what agility is supposed to be unformed. Seen situation. You implement your business as usual in kind of a weird way. It's not usual, but Cloud allows you to put the speed and scale and reliability together. What was the partnership with Azure? How did that change things or help things? Can you just unpack that a little bit? >>Yeah, by the way, I explain it to my business partners That work within TC energy is Look, it used to take us, you know, several weeks to get you any kind of compute capacity. So when we start talking about innovation and trying new things, the entry cost was high in terms of time and in terms of money, right? Like you'd have to give us a pile of cash. Let us go away. Design servers, you know, get all the right equipment racket and everything else, and that's a huge impediment to trying new things and being truly agile. What AWS has really given us. Yes, we're out of the business of looking after our own servers. And so I'm able to move my people, too. What I would say is more valuable work for the company that really focuses on the outcomes. But what's also very cool for our business partners is I can say that. Look, if you want more compute power than you've ever had before this afternoon, you know, give me, give me an hour and we'll have it for you on the Great part. Two is if on Monday you change your mind and you decide that that idea you had wasn't so great after role and oops, that's fine. I'll just turn it off for you, right? And there's no big deal. Where is in the old days? You phoned me on Monday and said it was a bad idea and say, Well, that's great, But I already bought the server and you, you're living with it for five years. >>That's a great example. You know, I've seen both pieces of the puzzle here. One side, the waterfall provisioning is a lot of risk involved at many levels of processing at scale or if it fails, you got the costs and then the agility side. You've got those example that you just pointed out. But I got to ask you as a manager, you know, some enterprises that are going into this area get stressed out, and things seem to be last minute. How >>do you >>manage that? When does it tip over to be part of the culture where it's like, don't worry about it. It's gonna hurt, because when new things have a full of process, process is great, you know, Don't break anything sweet last minute. So experimentation, as you pointed out, is the key to innovation getting things out there. But managing it is a hard part. What's your experience and what your best practice? >>Yeah, I think if I understand your question right, the journey. A lot of this goes to me towards culture, and, you know, we you can be, I think, coming from a place where perhaps your your your view of risk needs to change to get you into this new space. So obviously, like I said at the outset, in the safety and reliability is number one. We never do anything that would compromise any of those things. The reality and I asked, if I look at it is that you know, 80 90% of what I do doesn't have those types of implications associated with it. And so it becomes, you know, a different conversation about about risk and saying What's the worst thing that could happen? And, you know, you know, if that's not going Teoh intact, any safety and reliability, then let's take a look at it. And so I think the other thing that people are frightened off when it comes to implementing a change like this is obviously the impact on people, right? And I take that part of it very seriously to what I've been really pleased by in our journey is that we've managed to bring people along and give them new skill sets, and we're continuing to do that. We actually introduced what I call next year or the team. Sorry they came up with us, not me. But it's called next TC University, and it's this fabulous, you know, ability for people start signing on and getting new skill sets, you know, retraining themselves. And so we're starting to try and give people that sense of what's in it for them. Because that's the human element, right? So for people that love servers, you know, a You know, it was a big change to say, I'm not gonna get to touch it anymore. I'm not going to get a rack. That server, that's what I'm good at. No, But you're still going to get to do these other skills, right? >>Yeah, that's a great point. Well, if you love service, you love compute. So when you see the compute in action, they got to get excited about that. And I think that's one of the things I think having that on demand compute, almost dial, start dialing it up. And you guys probably agree with that. And your business is having that on one hand. But the team piece, I want to get back to that, cause I think that's the thing you mentioned earlier. Your team can be deployed in new new things. You have a next TC, which is more of a learning aspirational ladder or kind of way to make people feel good about themselves by getting new skills and reapplying it. It's a nice flywheel for the people side of the business. People process technology, as they say, but talk about the impact of the teams working with AWS and Cloud in general. What are some of those things they're working on? How do you shift? How do u flex that with some of the commentary around team the work that they dio and value? >>Yeah, It's a great question, John, and it's what I like to talk about, because what we've been able to do is to draw much more of, ah, clear line for our people between you know what they do and how it impacts the business. And I like to talk to people about the fact that we're blurring the lines now between IOS and the business. I think like it's never been tree done before, right? You know, I love to tell a story about one of my earlier in career folks who was presenting to a very senior group of senior group of VPs, one of whom came to me at the end of the meeting and said, you know which which one of our business units is that young man from And I said he's a nice guy you know? He said, The guy that was talked about line, pack and all those other things And I said, No, he's he's and I asked, right? And he was in disbelief. And that's what I would tell you is the biggest impact of the teams is it's blurring that line now where they're getting much more engaged on the business side, but also the, You know, the business folks are getting much more engaged in the IAS sites. This this kind of meshing now that you know, I asked, People have always striven for I always said, You know, be a partner. Don't be an order taker in my mind. A lot of this makes that possible cause you're getting out of those technical conversations you're having connecting much more with the with the outcomes that you can produce for the business, because it's mostly >>for the action to with this do you get there near the business. They can see it. They can feel the victories and also participate in that upside, and also take some of the learnings doing a lot of steep learning curve that go on for through the experimentation that you mentioned. This is this >>is >>the fun part. But also, it could be rewarding if you look at it that way. So how do you guys deal with the failures and learnings? And you know a lot about failure. But in a sense, if you can try out that you've gotta have that mindset of growth mindset where you're like, Okay, we're to fail, we're not gonna take it. Personal zones, you learn from it. How do you handle >>that? Yeah, it's a great question, John. You mentioned your sort of sick of the words new normal. And I'm I get a little tired of the of the Fail fast for similar reasons. Right to me, it's it's not fail fast as much as fail small and fail. Quick. Well, fail fast. But it's it's making sure you fail on the small things. So we have had failures. What I say to my business partners is look, in the past, I would have failed off the nine months and a couple $1,000,000 of your money. And probably more importantly, you've lost nine months of getting to that solution. Now I'm going to fail in six weeks or less. Andi were going very quickly. Weed out ideas and what I try and get very excited about is, you know, stop worrying about women. Idea is a good idea or a bad idea and spending months of analysis and time trying to figure it out. Let's do things on. You'll find it's cheaper to do. Some of these ideas figure out quickly going to cost way too much money. So we had one that was targeting some improvements in our field experience, and we underestimated the complexity of the systems it was gonna tie back into and all the legacy stuff that was in there wasn't a Greenfield. Nice clean thing to do. We did. We found out after a couple months, this isn't gonna work, right? Um, well, better after two months than two years and several $1,000,000. And that's how we kind of position that internally, >>you know, the whole fail fast thing. You know, you got me going on that couple terms. I always first talk a lot of jargon, so it's always kind of calm. The pot black but fail fast is no one wants to fail, right? So this whole glamorization of failure, any entrepreneur, any leader, no one rebels and failure failure is avoided. No one loves to say no fails, but it's more engineering. It's more getting the iteration. That's that's That's the real issue Here is not so much I look at me. I failed, you know that's got to be put to the side. But what you're getting at is really engineer architect ing really working the problem. And you need to make those iterations which essentially failure. But this whole idea of failing is just And that Data Lake don't get me going. >>It was true that example I gave you. We've actually just launched a very successful pilot from the learnings of that so called failure. Not really. I was just >>talking to another entrepreneur. I'm like, you know, when you're in the business and you're ahead of the curve, the whole world realizes that all of the pandemic these are some things. There are some companies that have those deep learnings, and they have an advantage because those endeavors give them that that courage to try something. But when it's now something obvious to do, those learnings Aaron advantage not a disadvantage. So to your point, that's awesome stuff. Um, tell about the, um, the machine learning side. And I'd love to get your take on. Are you tapping into some of the Amazon machine learning outside the compute stuff? I can see that being killer for you guys. What are some of the higher level services that come out of having some of these new things available? Like sage maker? There's a machine learning a ton of stuff coming out of the the wood work, if you will, From an Amazon standpoint, How are you looking at that? >>Yeah, there's some fabulous tools in there that we're definitely you know, we're fairly early in the in the journey, I would say, but we're already starting to see some great opportunities and great possibilities. So, you know, for example, assess. People probably realize we're quite rightly ah, heavily regulated. And we, you know, quite correctly have to produce a lot of information for regulators to establish that we're doing all of the right things. You know, sometimes when you've grown by acquiring different companies, you know, putting your hands on the right information at the right time could be challenging on dso we're using things like machine learning to help us find documentation quicker and faster to make sure that we can pull out, you know, certificates or regulation. You know, testing results, things like that much faster than we could in the past. Right? Um so that's one use that we already see for that that has the potential to speed up our interactions of regulators, help us refocus some costs internally on, you know, safe initiatives and that type of thing. So that's one example. We're also using machine learning to tell us more about how you can continue to operate the pipe, you know, more safe, you know, always more safely, more reliably, all the time. And, you know, the I truly believe, you know, all roads lead back to the data and how you get at that data, right. And so machine learning is most people in this audience who understand is is really another way of getting that data to tell you everything that's hidden within it. >>Once you get your team set up with the mindset, the culture having that compute, working on new things, you take advantage machine learning. Then you've got things like Kendra just announced general availability. These become abstractions of services, so that kind of leads me to. My final question for you is we're living in a time where Post Pandemic is gonna be exposed, that there's a lot of gaps. People realize that, you know, the tide has pulled out and you can see all the rocks that exposed opportunities out there, and there's also challenges. So we expecting a lot of projects will be cut me personnel as But there's a lot of projects being funded. So the funding versus cutting is going to be, I think, going all level out. But as people get back in and want to go the cloud, how should they be thinking about this? Actually, they be coming into the market because at your level, the CSO levels. It's more visibility than ever on resetting, reinventing and growing right, getting back on track or doubling down on a win. So what's your advice to people out there? The practitioners of Google Amazon summit and other folks that really need to take the step into the cloud native scale world. What's your advice? >>Well, yeah, it's definitely a challenging world, John, for a lot of people, and we're not immune to that. You know, we are seeing in my local community for sure lots of lots of people pulling back on projects and, um, expenditures. Right now, my advice to any of the folks out there is when I talk to my business partners, I try and talk about funding outcomes and not funding projects. Right? And so, you know, rather than when you might my biggest concern. Whenever we talk about budgets, everyone has to go for budget conversations that I don't care what industry you're in or what your position is. I want to make sure that when we decide where we set the budget, if we're gonna set it here, do we know what's above the line and below the line in business terms, right. So it's very easy to cut technology and not really see a business impact on DSO. What I like to talk about with our business partners internally is to talk about everything in terms of the outcomes you're trying to fund. And so if for me it's a enhancement infield productivity, you know, reducing the windshield time of our people in the field because that's a primary safety issue. That's the outcome I'm going for and their bi projects behind it and that that's the biggest advice I can give people when it's now. There's so much scrutiny on, you know, is that a dollar that's worth spending? If you talk about technology in most you know, boardrooms or leadership tables around North America, you're gonna lose people. Very first, you gotta focus it back to what the business is trying to do with it and create teams that can really zero in together. You know, blur the lines. Like I said previously, between IOS and the business people, where everyone's got the outcome that's pasted up on the wall, that's what we're going to deliver. We're gonna, you know, come to ah, conclusion quickly on whether we can do it. >>Yeah, it's not a shiny new toy. It's how the engine of innovation hits the business object. That's great stuff. Final final question. What are you excited about these days? Obviously, we're in a tough time. Um, there are new realities we're gonna come out of this is going to be a hybrid world in this virtual interactions. We're having the cube virtual Amazon summit. Virtual life isn't now part of everybody's immersion. You've got the edge of the network exploding. You've got all the you know it's chaotic. But if you squint through that there's opportunities. Start up a big business. What are you excited about? >>I agree with you, John. I think you have to be glass half full. And I don't mean to be just the sort of overly optimistic, but I think you have to look at this as an opportunity for a bit of a rebirth of the shift, right? And, you know, I don't wanna downplay the fact that change is hard for people. I don't downplay the fact that people are going through some very tough things right now. So, you know, not not trying to put sort of, but too much of sweetener on things. But I think if you're looking for a positive angle, you look at it the rebirth of the opportunities that will come out of that right. I think there's incredible, you know, technology opportunities coming out of it. I talked to my people all the time about focus on what you can control on what you can control. This staying relevant right. We know we're entering a digital world. We know that things are gonna look differently when we come back. We may not know what they are yet, but companies are gonna continue to need great technology. You know, our partnership with AWS has given us access to great technology. Focus on that. Because that's what you can control on. I think you know, you'll see that some opportunities will come out of this. We probably didn't expect >>and also that it's an inflection point as well. 2000 and eight. When we had the financial crisis there, there were clear coming. They're on the up trajectory and stayed up here. I think we're going to see something similar. So I think there's gonna be a right side of history coming out of this. And it's going to be one of those things where you can tell by who's growing and who's the trajectories of their business outcomes. Um, well, tried a lot of that. >>Yeah, I would agree. A lot of there's a there's always someone that's that you don't realize till later was was quietly making making hay right? Well, this was happening, and I would encourage people to think about that. >>You don't want to be that company. As expression goes, Chris, thank you so much for taking the time to share your insights on the Cube virtual as part of our AWS summit coverage. This is the Cube virtual. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. >>Pleasure. Thanks for having me. >>I'm John Furrier here in the Palo Alto studios covering AWS Summit online. Virtual. Is the Cube virtual doing our part here with our quarantine crew getting all the data sharing that with you. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

>>The cube presents, Coon and cloud native con Europe, 22 brought to you by the cloud native computing foundation. >>Welcome to ity of Spain and cube con coup con cloud native con Europe 2022 is near the end of the day. That's okay. We, we, we have plenty of energy because we're bringing it. I'm Keith Townsend, along with my coho, Paul Gillon Paul, this has been an amazing day. Thus far. We've talked to some incredible folks. You got a chance to walk the show floor. Yeah. So I'm really excited to hear what's the vibe of the show floor, 7,500 people in Europe following the protocols, but getting stuff done. >>Well, first I have to say that I haven't traveled for two years. So getting out to a show by, by itself is, is an amazing experience, but a show like this with all of the energy and the crowd, she is enormously crowded at lunchtime today. It's hard to believe how many people have made it, made it all the way here out on the floor. The boots are crowded. The, the demonstrations are what you would expect at a show like this. Lots of code, lots of, lots of block diagrams, lots of architecture. I think the audience is eating it up. You know, when they're, they're on their laptops, they're coding on their laptops. And this is very much symbolic of the crowd that comes to a cubic con. And it's, it's a, just a delight to see them outta here. I so much fun. >>So speaking of lots of gold, we have Bome Toro co-founder of pet trade, but, you know, just saw, didn't realize this Isto becoming part of CNCF was the latest on infield. >>Yeah. Is still is, you know, it was always one of those service mesh projects, which was very widely adopted. And it's great to see that going into the cloud native computing foundation. And I think what happened with Kubernetes, like just became the defacto container orchestrator. I think similar thing is happening with Isto and service mesh. >>What, >>So I'm sorry, Keith, what's the process like of becoming adopted by and incubated by the CNCF? >>Yeah, I mean, it's pretty simple. It's an application process into the foundation where you say, you know what the project is about, how diverse is your contributor base, how many people are using it. And it goes through a review of with TC. It goes through a review of like all the users and contributors. And if you see a good base of deployments in production, if you see a diverse of contributors, then you can basically be part of the CNCF. And as you know, CNCF is very flexible on governance. Basically it's like, bring your own governance. And then the projects can basically seamlessly go in and, you know, get into incubation and gradually graduate >>Another project close and dear to you Envoy. Yes. Now I've always considered Envoy just as what it is. It's a, I've always used it as, as a load balancer type thing. So I've always considered it somewhat of a gateway proxy, but Envoy gateway was announced last week. Yes. >>So Envoy is basically won the data plane war of in cloud native workloads. Right. And, but, and this was over the last five years, Envoy was announced even way before Rio and it is used in various deployment models. You can use it as a front load balancer. You can use it as an Ingres in Kubernetes. You can use it as a side car and a service mesh like steel, and it's lightweight dynamically, programmable, very open with a white community. But what we looked at when we looked at the Envoy base, was it still, wasn't very approachable for application developers. Like when you still see like the nouns that it uses in terms of clusters and so on is not what an application developer was used to. And so Envoy gateway is really an effort to make Envoy even more stronger out of the box for an application developer to use it as an API gateway. >>Right? Because if you think about it, ultimately, you know, people de developers start deploying workloads onto their Kubernetes clusters. They need some functionality like an API gateway to expose their services and you wanna make it really, really easy and simple. Right? I often say like what, what engine X was to like static websites like Envoy gateway will be to like, you know, APIs and it's really few the community coming together. We are a big part, but also VMware and as well as end users, like in this case, fidelity who is investing heavily into Envoy and API gateway use cases, joining forces saying, let's do this in upstream Envoy. >>I'd like to go back to IIO because this is a major step in IIOS development. Where do you see SIO coming into the picture? And Kubernetes is already broadly accepted. Is IIO generally adopted as an after an after step to, to Kubernetes or are they increasingly being adopted together? >>Yeah. So usually it's adopted as a follow on step and the reason is primarily the learning curve, right. It's just get used to all the Kubernetes and, you know, it takes a while for people to understand the concepts, get applications going, and then, you know, studio was made to basically solve, you know, three big problems there. Right. Which is around observability traffic management and security. Right. So as people deploy more services, they figure out, okay, how do I connect them? How do I secure all the connections and how do I do more fine grain routing? I'm doing more frequent deployments with Kubernetes, but I would like to do Canary releases to make safer rollouts. Right. And those are the problems that Isto solves. And I don't really want to know the metrics of like, yes, it'll be, I it's good to know all the node level and CPO level metrics. >>But really what I want to know is how are my services performing? Where is the latency, right? Where is the error rate? And those are the things thatto gives out of the box. So that's like a very natural next step for people using Kubernetes. And, you know, Tetra was really formed as a company to enable enterprises, to adopt STO Envoy and service mission, their environment. Right? So we do everything from run an academy for like courses and certifications on Envoy and STO to a distribution, which is, you know, compliant with various bills and tooling as well as a whole platform on top of STO to make it usable and deployment in a large enterprise. >>So paint the end to end for me, for STO in Envoy. I know they can be used in similar fashions is like side cars, but how they work together to deliver value. >>Yeah. So if you step back from technology a little bit, right, and you like, sort of look at what customers are doing and facing, right. Really it is about, they have applications. They have some applications that new workloads going into Kubernetes and cloud native. They have a lot of legacy workloads, a lot of workloads on VMs and with different teams in different clouds or due to acquisitions. They're very heterogeneous right now. Our mission Tetrad's mission is power. The world's application traffic, but really the business value that we are going after is consistency of application operations. Right? And I'll tell you how powerful that is because the more places you can deploy Envoy into the more places you can deploy studio into, the more consistency you can get for the value pillars of observability, traffic management, and security. Right. And really, if you think about what is the journey for an enterprise to migrate from workloads into Kubernetes or from data centers into cloud, the challenges are around security and connectivity, right? Because if it's Kubernetes fabric, the same Kubernetes app and data center can be deployed exactly as is it in cloud. Right. Right. So why is it hard to migrate to cloud, right. The challenges come in the security and networking layer. >>Right. So let's talk about that with some granularity and you can maybe gimme some concrete examples, right? Because it, as I think about the hybrid infrastructure where I have VMs on premises, cloud, native stuff, running in the public cloud, or even cloud native next to VMs, right. I do security differently when I'm in the VM world. I say, you know what, this IP address, can't talk to this Oracle database server. Right. That's not how cloud native works. Right. I, I can't say if I have a cloud, if I have a cloud native app talking to a Oracle database, there's no IP address. Yeah. But how do I, how, how do I secure the communication between the two? Exactly. >>So I think you hit it straight on the head. So which is with things like Kubernetes, IP is no longer a really a valid noun where you can say, because things will auto scale either from Kubernetes or, you know, the cloud autoscales. So really the noun that is becoming now is service. So, and I could have many instances of it. They could go scale up and down. But what I'm saying is this service, which, you know, some app server, some application can talk to the article service. Hmm. And what we have done with the te trade service bridge, which is why we call our platform service bridge, because it's all about bridging all the services is whatever you're running on, the VM can be onboarded onto the mesh, like as if it were a ity service. Right. And then my policy around this service can talk to this service is same in Kubernetes is same for Kubernetes talking to VM it's same for VM to VM, both in terms of access control in terms of encryption. What we do is because it's the Envoy, proxy goes everywhere and the traffic is going through them. We actually take care of distributing, certs, encrypting, everything, and it becomes, and that is what leads to consistent application operations. And that's where the value is. >>We're seeing a lot of activity around observ observability right now, a lot of different tools, both open source and proprietary STO certainly part of the open telemetry project, I believe. Are you part of that? Yes. But the customers are still piecing together a lot of tools on their own. Right. Do you see a, a more coherent framework forming around observability? >>I think very much so. And there are layers of observability, right? So the thing is like, if we tell you there is latency between these two services at L seven layer, the first question is, is it the service? Is it the Envoy? Or is it the network? It sounds like a very simple question. It's actually not that easy to answer. And that is one of the questions we answer in like platforms like ours. Right. But even that is not the end. It, if it's neither of these three, it could be the node. It could be the hardware underneath. Right. And those, you realize like those are different observability tools that work on each layer. So I think there's a lot of work to be done, to enable end users to go from app, like from top to bottom to make, reduce what is called MTTR or meantime to, you know, resolution of an issue, where is the problem. >>But I think with tools like what is being built now, it is becoming easier, right? It is because one of the things we have to realize is with things like Kubernetes, we made the development of microservices easier. Right. And that's great. But as a result, what is happening is that more things are getting broken down. So there is more network in between. So that's harder. It gets to troubleshoot harder. It gets to secure everything harder. It gets to get visibility from everywhere. Right. So I often say like, actually, if you're going embarking down microservices journey, you actually are, you better have a platform like this. Otherwise, you know, you're, you're taking on operational cost. >>Wow. J's paradox. The more accessible we make something, the more it gets used, the more complex it is. That's been a theme here at KU con cloud native con Europe, 2022 from Licia Spain. I'm Keith Townsend, along with my host, Paul Gillman. And you're watching the queue, the leader in high tech coverage.

>>Hello and welcome to the AWS partners showcase season one, episode two. I'm your host of the cube John ferry. We're here with two great guests who John Kumar, CEO of and Sabina Joseph, the general manager of AWS. Welcome to the show. Welcome to welcome to the cube, >>John. Good to see you >>Again. Great to see both of you both cube. Alumna's great to see how the businesses is going, going very well. Cloud scale, continuing to dominate Columbia is doing extremely well. Tell us more about what's going on in Columbia. What's your mission? What kinds of use cases are you seeing? Napa John, that's helping you guys keep your growth trajectory and solve your customer problems. >>Yeah. Firstly, thank you, John. Thank you, Sabina. Great to be here is a backup as a service platform. That's built natively on AWS for AWS, and we do support other use cases beyond AWS. But our primary mission is to basically deliver, you know, a ransomware data protection solution, you know, on AWS for AWS customers. Right? So if we think about it, you know, one of the things that's, you know, typically holding back any company to put mission critical workloads on a fantastic platform, a public cloud platform like AWS is to make sure that the data is protected in the event of any attack. And it's also done with extreme amount of simplicity, right? So that nobody is doing the heavy lift of doing backup themselves, right? So that's what really drew me or provides. It's a service. It's a turnkey service that provides, you know, data protection on AWS, whatever. >>Well, you're a frequent cube alumni. We're always talking about the importance of that, but I want to ask you this year more than ever, you're seeing it at the center of the conversation built in from day one, you're seeing a lot more threats, certainly mentioned ransomware and more there's more and more online attacks that's impacting this particular area more than ever before. Can you comment on what your focus has been this year around that? >>Yeah, I see it. If you think about tumor's evolution, our primary mission has been to go and protect every data source, but guess what? Right with more and more move to the public cloud and you look just AWS is journey and that pioneer in public cloud going from, you know, whatever 3 billion in revenues, 10 years ago to north of 70 billion run rate today, there's so much of data that is in the public cloud and the, and the most important thing that customers need is they want to free themselves from going and protecting this data themselves. Right? And, and there's a lot of scale in these environments, right? If you look at customers running hundreds of thousands of AWS accounts across every region on AWS, and if you give them that kind of flexibility and that kind of scale, what they want is give me a turnkey solution that just allows me to go and protect all of these workloads running across all of these regions in a service that takes the data out of my accounts separately in an air gap fashion, right. And that's really what we basically provide. And that's what we focused on over the last 12 months. Right? So if you look at what we have done is we've gone after every important service on AWS TC to EBS RDS, S3, dynamo, sequel databases, and other databases running on top of BC too. So now that becomes the comprehensive set of things that somebody needs to use to really deliver an application on top of the public cloud. And that's where we want for, >>And the growth has been there and the results on Amazon because of the refactoring has been huge. Can you share any examples of some successes that you've had with, with the AWS refactoring and all that good stuff going on? >>Yeah. I mean, I think that what we have seen is, you know, customers that basically told us that before you guys existed, we had to go and build these things ourselves, right. Again, you know, they had all the, the, the blocks to go and do it themselves, but it was so much of a heavy lift to go and do it themselves. And again, they didn't want to be in a, you know, in that business. So, so what we have done essentially for, and we have, you know, we have some joint customers at a pretty massive scale that basically have said that, okay, let me just use your solution to protect my critical assets. Like, you know, things, you know, sitting in S3 and really, you know, we'll use gloomy as a, as a >>Yeah, I think that's a great example of the refactoring Sabina. Gotta, I gotta ask you, you obviously you're at the center of this. You have your hand on the wheel of the partnerships and all the innovators out there. The growth of AWS just has been spectacular because there's value being created. Again, companies are refactoring their business on the cloud and you're at the center of it. So talk about the partnership with Clooney. Can you tell us how it all started and where it's going? >>Yeah, thanks for having me here, John, and good to see you again, Fujian, if I'm not mistaken for John, we met each other at the San Francisco summit, the AWS San Francisco summit, actually I believe it was in 2016 or 2017. You can correct me if I'm wrong here, but yes, I think so. It was, it was in the 8% a month of April. I still remember it. And that's when, you know, you kind of mentioned to me about and this modern backup as a service solution that you were creating, you're still in stealth mode. So you couldn't talk a lot about it. And B started to engage deeply on the partnership, right from 2017. And initially we were kind of focused around helping Colombia build a solution using our well-architected review. And then as soon as we all came out of stealth mode, we started to engage more deeply around deeper integrations and also on go to market activities. >>As you know, AWS has a very prescriptive approach to our partnerships. So we started to work with around the five pillars of security, reliability, cost optimization, performance, and operational excellence to really help them tune the solution on AWS. And we also started to engage with our service teams and I have to thank Paul John and his team here. They really embraced those deeper and broader integrations, many services that Pooja mentioned, but also specifically want to mention S3 EBS. And our Columbia was also a launch partner for AWS outpost when AWS in fact, launched outpost. So I want to kind of commend CLU, CLU MEO, and the entire team kind of embracing this technology and innovation and this modern backup as a service approach. And also also embracing how we want to focus on the five key pillars that I mentioned. >>And that's a great example of success when you ride the wave, which I talk about the ACLU, Colombia trends in the data protection, because one of the things that you pointed out earlier is the ransomware. Okay. That's a big one, right? That's a big, hot area. How, how is the cloud, first of all, how is that going? And then how has the cloud equation changed the ransomware defense and protection piece of it? >>Yeah. Now I just, I wonder I had a little bit on what Sabina mentioned before I answered the question, John, if you don't mind. Sure. I think that collaboration is where is the reason why we are here today, right? Like if you think about it, like we were the first design partners to go and build, you know, the EBS direct API, right. And we work closely with the EBS teams, not just for the API, but the cost structure of it. How would somebody like us use it? So we are at the bleeding edge of some of these services that we are using and that has enabled us, you know, to be where we are today. So again, thank you very much to be enough for this fantastic partnership. And again, there's so much to go and do to really go and nail this in a, in a, in a, in a great way on, on the public cloud. >>So now coming back to your question, John, you know, fundamentally, if you see right, you know, what happened is when, when, when customers move to the public cloud, you know, right there, you know, the ease of use with which, you know, AWS provides these services, right? And the consumption of these services actually drives some amazing behavior, right? Where people actually want to go and build, build, build, and build. But then it comes a time where somebody comes in and says, okay, you know, are you compliant? Right. You know, do you have the right compliance in place? You have all these accounts that you have, but what is running in each of these accounts, you have visibility in those accounts. And are these accounts that the data in these accounts is this gap, right? This is getting air gap in the same region, or does it need to be across regions? >>Right. You know, I'm in the east, do I need to, you know, have an air gap in the west and so on and so forth. Right? So all of these, you know, confluence of all these things come in and by the, all these problems existed in on-premise world, they get translated in, in the public cloud, where do I need to replicate my data, doing it to back it up? Do I need air gapped in a, like an on-prem world? You had a data domain of plans, which was separate from your primary storage for a reason, same similar something similar now needs to happen here for compliance reasons and for ransomware reason. So a lot of parallels here is just that here we are, it almost feels like, you know, as they say, right, the more things changed. The more they remain the same. That's what it is in the public cloud again. >>Well, that's a good point. I mean, let's take that example of on premises versus the cloud. Also, the clouds got more scale too, by the way. So now you've got regions, this is a common problem that customers are having, you can build your own and, or use solutions, but if you don't get ahead of it, the compliance question can bite you in the, you know what, because you then got to go back and retrofit everything. So, so that's kind of what I hear a lot on my end is like, okay, I want to be compliant from day one. I want to have an answer when asked, I don't want to have to go to old techniques that don't fit the cloud. That comes up a lot. What's your answer to that? >>Yeah, no, no. We were pretty much right. I think it's like, you know, when it, when it comes to compliance and all of these things, you know, people at the end of the day are looking for that same foundation of, of things. The same questions are asked for an encryption. You know, you know, I is my data where it needs to be when it needs to be right. What is my recovery point? Objective? What is my recovery time objective? All of these things basically come together. And now, as you said, it's just the scale that you're dealing is, is extremely different in the cloud and the, and the services, right? The easier it is that, you know, it is to use these services. And especially what AWS does, it makes it so easy. So compelling that same ease of use needs to get translated with a SAS service, like what we are doing with data protection, right? That that ease of use is very important. You have to preserve that sanctity >>Sabina. Let's get back to you. You mentioned earlier about the design partner, that benefits for Colombia. Now let's take it to the next level. As customers really realize they have a problem, they need solutions and you're on the AWS side. So you gotta have the answers for the customers. You've got to put people together, make things work. There's a variety of things that you guys offer. What are some of the different facets of the ISV or the partner programs that you offer to partners like Clooney, you know, that they can benefit from? >>Absolutely John, we believe in a win-win approach to the partnerships because that's what makes partnerships durable over time. We're always striving to do better here. And we continue to broaden our investments. As you know, John, the AWS management team, right from Adam Phillipsky, our CEO down firmly believe that partners are critical to our success, our longterm success, and as partners like CLU MEO work to lean in with us with more investment resources, our technology innovation. We also ensure that we are doing our part by providing value back to Cleo about a few years ago, as you might recall, right. We really did a lot of investment in our sales team on the AWS side. Well, one of the tanks me and also our partners observed is while we were making investments in the AWS sales team, I don't think we were doing a great job at helping our partners with reaching out to those customers. >>What we call as co-sale and partners gave us feedback on this. We are very partner and customer feedback driven, and we introduced in fact, a new role called the ISP success manager, ISS, who are basically embedded in our field. And they work with partners to help them close opportunities. And also net new opportunities are we've also in 2020. I believe that re-invent, we launched the ISB accelerate program whereby we offer incentives to the AWS field team to work with our partners to close existing opportunities and also bring in net new opportunities. So all of this has led to closer collaboration in the field between both our field teams, Muir's field team and our field team, but also accelerated mutual customer wins. I'm not saying that we are doing everything great. We still have a long ways to go. And we are constantly getting feedback from cluneal and also some of our other key partners, and we'll continue to get better at it. But I think the role of the ISV success manager and also the ISP accelerate program has been key to bringing in cold cell success. >>Well, John, what's your take on, is this a good partnership for you? I mean, see, the wave of Vegas has got the growth numbers. You mentioned that, but from a partnership standpoint, you're closing business, they got scale. Is it working? How do you organize your company to take advantage of these benefits? Can you share your thoughts? >>Absolutely not. We have embraced the ecosystem wholeheartedly 100%, but if you think about it, what we have done is look at our offering on AWS marketplace. There's an example, right? We are the only company I would say in our domain, obviously that routes our entire business through AWS marketplace. Whether obviously we get a lot of organic benefit from AWS marketplace, people go and search for a solution and from your shows up, and obviously they go and onboard self onboard themselves, and guess what? We let them self onboard themselves. And we rely on AWS's billing automatically. So you don't need to talk to us. You can just get billed automatically in your AWS bill and you get your data protection solution. Or if you directly reached out to us, guess what we do. We actually route you through AWS marketplace. All the onboarding is just to one place and it's a fantastic experience. >>So we have gone like all in, on that experience and completely like, you know, internalized that that's the right way to do things. And of course, thanks to, you know, Sabina's team and the marketplace team to create that platform so that we could actually plug it into it. But that's the kind of benefits that we have that we have, you know, taken advantage of a DWI. That's one example, another example that Sabina mentioned, right, which is the whole ACE program. We put a ton of registrations on AIS and with all the wins that we get on AWS, they could broadcast it to the sellers. So that creates its own vicious cycle in terms of more coming into the pipeline and more closing in. So, so these are just two small examples, but there's other examples that we look at our recent press release, where AWS, you know, when we, when we launched yesterday data protection and backup, the GM of AWSs three supported us in the press release. So there's things like that, that it's a, it's a fantastic collaboration. That's working really well for our joint customers. Sorry. >>And tell us something about the partnership between 80 of us, including, you know, that people might not be aware of some of the things that Poojan said that they're different out there that, that are, co-selling go marketing, that you guys offer people you guys work together on. >>Yeah. The, the ISV accelerate program that was created, it was really created with partners like Klunier in mind, our SAS partners. I think that that is something very, very unique between our partnership and, you know, I, I want to double click on what Poojan said, which is riding their opportunities through marketplace, right? All of their opportunities. That is something pretty unique. They understand the richness of the platform and also how customers are procuring software today in this world. And they've embraced that. And we really appreciate that. And I want to say, you know, another thing about Qumulo is they're all in on AWS, which is another unique thing. There are not a lot of, I would say all in partnerships in my world and I manage infrastructure, business apps, applications, and industry partnerships from the Americas globally. And all of those things are very, very unique in our partnership, which has led to success. Right. We started very, very early stage when Columbia was in stealth mode in 2017 and look where we've come today. And it's really kudos to Paul, John and his entire team for believing in the partnership for leaning in with us and for placing that trust with us. >>Awesome. Pooja, any final words you'd like to share for folks out there about the conversation and what's going on in Columbia? >>Yeah, no, absolutely. You know, as I said, I think we have been fortunate to be very early adopters of all these technologies and go and really build what a true cloud native solution has to be. Right. And, and again, right, you know, this is what customers are really looking for. And people are looking for, you know, at least on the data protection side, you know, ransomware air gap solution, people are looking for a solution natively built on the cloud because that's the only way a solution can deliver something at the scale and the cost structure that is needed to have, you know, a data protection solution in the public cloud. So, so this has been just a fantastic thing end to end, you know, for us overall. And we really look forward to, you know, going, you know, doing much more with AWS as we essentially go and scale, >>I have to ask, but before we, before we go, cause you're the CEO of the company and founder having all that backend infrastructure from Amazon, just on the resources, great. It creates a market for your product, but also the sales piece, you know, they got the marketplace, you mentioned, that's a big expense that you don't have to carry, you know, and you get revenue and top line. I mean, that's an impact for startups out there and growing companies. That's a pretty big deal. What's your, what's your advice to folks out there who are trying to think about the buy versus use the leverage of the, of the marketplace, which is, which is at large scale, because as a CEO, you're, you've got to make these decisions. What's your opinion on that? >>It's not, it's not as, as easy as I make it sound to do your own part. You know, AWS is, is, is, is huge, right? It's huge. And so we have to do our part to educate everybody within the, you know, even the AWS seller base to make sure that they internalize the fact that this is the right solution for the customers, for our joint customers, right? So we have to do that all day long. So there's no running away the no shortcut to everything, but obviously AWS does its part to make it very, as easy as possible, but there's a lot of heavy lifting we still have to do. And I think that'll only become easier and easier over the next few years >>And Sabina your takeout at AVS. You've got a great job. You were with all the hot growth companies. This is the big wave we're on right now with the cloud next generation clouds here, a lot of opportunities. >>Absolutely. And it's, and it's thanks to Pooja and, and partners like Lumeo that really understand what it takes to build a cloud native solution because it's part of it is building. And part of it is the co-selling go-to-market engine and embracing both of that is critical to success. >>Well, thank you both for coming on this journey here on the cube, as part of the showcase, push on. Great to see you to being a great to see you as well. And thanks for sharing that insight. Appreciate it. >>Thank you very much. >>Okay. AWS partners showcase speeding innovation with AWS. I'm John Ford, your host of the cube. Thanks for watching.

>> Announcer: From around the globe it's theCUBE. Presenting the Convergence of File and Object brought to you by Pure Storage. >> Okay now we're going to get the customer perspective on object and we'll talk about the convergence of file and object, but really focusing on the object pieces this is a content program that's being made possible by Pure Storage and it's co-created with theCUBE. Christopher CB Bohn is here. He's a lead architect for MicroFocus the enterprise data warehouse and principal data engineer at MicroFocus. CB welcome good to see you. >> Thanks Dave good to be here. >> So tell us more about your role at Microfocus it's a pan Microfocus role because we know the company is a multi-national software firm it acquired the software assets of HP of course including Vertica tell us where you fit. >> Yeah so Microfocus is you know, it's like I can says it's wide, worldwide company that it sells a lot of software products all over the place to governments and so forth. And it also grows often by acquiring other companies. So there is there the problem of integrating new companies and their data. And so what's happened over the years is that they've had a number of different discreet data systems so you've got this data spread all over the place and they've never been able to get a full complete introspection on the entire business because of that. So my role was come in, design a central data repository and an enterprise data warehouse, that all reporting could be generated against. And so that's what we're doing and we selected Vertica as the EDW system and Pure Storage FlashBlade as the communal repository. >> Okay so you obviously had experience with with Vertica in your previous role, so it's not like you were starting from scratch, but paint a picture of what life was like before you embarked on this sort of consolidated approach to your data warehouse. Was it just dispared data all over the place? A lot of M and A going on, where did the data live? >> CB: So >> Right so again the data is all over the place including under people's desks and just dedicated you know their own private SQL servers, It, a lot of data in a Microfocus is one on SQL server, which has pros and cons. Cause that's a great transactional database but it's not really good for analytics in my opinion. So but a lot of stuff was running on that, they had one Vertica instance that was doing some select reporting. Wasn't a very powerful system and it was what they call Vertica enterprise mode where it had dedicated nodes which had the compute and storage in the same locus on each server okay. So Vertica Eon mode is a whole new world because it separates compute from storage. Okay and at first was implemented in AWS so that you could spin up you know different numbers of compute nodes and they all share the same communal storage. But there has been a demand for that kind of capability, but in an on-prem situation. Okay so Pure storage was the first vendor to come along and have an S3 emulation that was actually workable. And so Vertica worked with Pure Storage to make that all happen and that's what we're using. >> Yeah I know back when back from where we used to do face-to-face, we would be at you know Pure Accelerate, Vertica was always there it stopped by the booth, see what they're doing so tight integration there. And you mentioned Eon mode and the ability to scale, storage and compute independently. And so and I think Vertica is the only one I know they were the first, I'm not sure anybody else does that both for cloud and on-prem, but so how are you using Eon mode, are you both in AWS and on-prem are you exclusively cloud? Maybe you could describe that a little bit. >> Right so there's a number of internal rules at Microfocus that you know there's, it's not AWS is not approved for their business processes. At least not all of them, they really wanted to be on-prem and all the transactional systems are on-prem. And so we wanted to have the analytics OLAP stuff close to the OLTP stuff right? So that's why they called there, co-located very close to each other. And so we could, what's nice about this situation is that these S3 objects, it's an S3 object store on the Pure Flash Blade. We could copy those over if we needed it to AWS and we could spin up a version of Vertica there, and keep going. It's like a tertiary GR strategy cause we actually have a, we're setting up a second, Flash Blade Vertica system geo located elsewhere for backup and we can get into it if you want to talk about how the latest version of the Pure software for the Flash Blade allows synchronization across network boundaries of those Flash Blade which is really nice because if, you know there's a giant sinkhole opens up under our Koll of facility and we lose that thing then we just have to switch to DNS. And we were back in business of the DR. And then the third one was to go, we could copy those objects over to AWS and be up and running there. So we're feeling pretty confident about being able to weather whatever comes along. >> Yeah I'm actually very interested in that conversation but before we go there. you mentioned you want, you're going to have the old lab close to the OLTP, was that for latency reasons, data movement reasons, security, all of the above. >> Yeah it's really all of the above because you know we are operating under the same sub-net. So to gain access to that data, you know you'd have to be within that VPN environment. We didn't want to going out over the public internet. Okay so and just for latency reasons also, you know we have a lot of data and we're continually doing ETL processes into Vertica from our production data, transactional databases. >> Right so they got to be approximate. So I'm interested in so you're using the Pure Flash Blade as an object store, most people think, oh object simple but slow. Not the case for you is that right? >> Not the case at all >> Why is that. >> This thing had hoop It's ripping, well you have to understand about Vertica and the way it stores data. It stores data in what they call storage containers. And those are immutable, okay on disc whether it's on AWS or if you had a enterprise mode Vertica, if you do an update or delete it actually has to go and retrieve that object container from disc and it destroys it and rebuilds it, okay which is why you don't, you want to avoid updates and deletes with vertica because the way it gets its speed is by sorting and ordering and encoding the data on disk. So it can read it really fast. But if you do an operation where you're deleting or updating a record in the middle of that, then you've got to rebuild that entire thing. So that actually matches up really well with S3 object storage because it's kind of the same way, it gets destroyed and rebuilt too okay. So that matches up very well with Vertica and we were able to design the system so that it's a panda only. Now we have some reports that we're running in SQL server. Okay which we're taking seven days. So we moved that to Vertica from SQL server and we rewrote the queries, which were had, which had been written in TC SQL with a bunch of loops and so forth and we were to get, this is amazing it went from seven days to two seconds, to generate this report. Which has tremendous value to the company because it would have to have this long cycle of seven days to get a new introspection in what they call the knowledge base. And now all of a sudden it's almost on demand two seconds to generate it. That's great and that's because of the way the data is stored. And the S3 you asked about, oh you know it, it's slow, well not in that context. Because what happens really with Vertica Eon mode is that it can, they have, when you set up your compute nodes, they have local storage also which is called the depot. It's kind of a cache okay. So the data will be drawn from the Flash Blade and cached locally. And that was, it was thought when they designed that, oh you know it's that'll cut down on the latency. Okay but it turns out that if you have your compute nodes close meaning minimal hops to the Flash Blade that you can actually tell Vertica, you know don't even bother caching that stuff just read it directly on the fly from the from the Flash Blade and the performance is still really good. It depends on your situation. But I know for example a major telecom company that uses the same topologies we're talking about here they did the same thing. They just dropped the cache cause the Flash Blade was able to deliver the data fast enough. >> So that's, you're talking about that's speed of light issues and just the overhead of switching infrastructure is that, it's eliminated and so as a result you can go directly to the storage array? >> That's correct yeah, it's like, it's fast enough that it's almost as if it's local to the compute node. But every situation is different depending on your needs. If you've got like a few tables that are heavily used, then yeah put them in the cache because that'll be probably a little bit faster. But if you're have a lot of ad hoc queries that are going on, you know you may exceed the storage of the local cache and then you're better off having it just read directly from the, from the Flash Blade. >> Got it so it's >> Okay. >> It's an append only approach. So you're not >> Right >> Overwriting on a record, so but then what you have automatically re index and that's the intelligence of the system. how does that work? >> Oh this is where we did a little bit of magic. There's not really anything like magic but I'll tell you what it is I mean. ( Dave laughing) Vertica does not have indexes. They don't exist. Instead I told you earlier that it gets a speed by sorting and encoding the data on disk and ordering it right. So when you've got an append-only situation, the natural question is well if I have a unique record, with let's say ID one, two, three, what happens if I append a new version of that, what happens? Well the way Vertica operates is that there's a thing called a projection which is actually like a materialized columnar data store. And you can have a, what they call a top-K projection, which says only put in this projection the records that meet a certain condition. So there's a field that we like to call a discriminator field which is like okay usually it's the latest update timestamp. So let's say we have record one, two, three and it had yesterday's date and that's the latest version. Now a new version comes in. When the data at load time vertical looks at that and then it looks in the projection and says does this exist already? If it doesn't then it adds it. If it does then that one now goes into that projection okay. And so what you end up having is a projection that is the latest snapshot of the data, which would be like, oh that's the reality of what the table is today okay. But inherent in that is that you now have a table that has all the change history of those records, which is awesome. >> Yeah. >> Because, you often want to go back and revisit, you know what it will happen to you. >> But that materialized view is the most current and the system knows that at least can (murmuring). >> Right so we then create views that draw off from that projection so that our users don't have to worry about any of that. They just get oh and say select from this view and they're getting the latest greatest snapshot of what the reality of the data is right now. But if they want to go back and say, well how did this data look two days ago? That's an easy query for them to do also. So they get the best of both worlds. >> So could you just plug any flash array into your system and achieve the same results or is there anything really unique about Pure? >> Yeah well they're the only ones that have got I think really dialed in the S3 object form because I don't think AWS actually publishes every last detail of that S3 spec. Okay so it had, there's a certain amount of reverse engineering they had to do I think. But they got it right. When we've, a couple maybe a year and a half ago or so there they were like at 99%, but now they worked with Vertica people to make sure that that object format was true to what it should be. So that it works just as if Vertica doesn't care, if it is on AWS or if it's on Pure Flash Blade because Pure did a really good job of dialing in that format and so Vertica doesn't care. It just knows S3, doesn't know what it doesn't care where it's going it just works. >> So the essentially vendor R and D abstracted that complexity so you didn't have to rewrite the application is that right? >> Right, so you know when Vertica ships it's software, you don't get a specific version for Pure or AWS, it's all in one package, and then when you configure it, it knows oh okay well, I'm just pointed at the, you know this port, on the Pure storage Flash Blade, and it just works. >> CB what's your data team look like? How is it evolving? You know a lot of customers I talked to they complain that they struggled to get value out of the data and they don't have the expertise, what does your team look like? How is it, is it changing or did the pandemic change things at all? I wonder if you could bring us up to date on that? >> Yeah but in some ways Microfocus has an advantage in that it's such a widely dispersed across the world company you know it's headquartered in the UK, but I deal with people I'm in the Bay Area, we have people in Mexico, Romania, India. >> Okay enough >> All over the place yeah all over the place. So when this started, it was actually a bigger project it got scaled back, it was almost to the point where it was going to be cut. Okay, but then we said, well let's try to do almost a skunkworks type of thing with reduced staff. And so we're just like a hand. You could count the number of key people on this on one hand. But we got it all together, and it's been a traumatic transformation for the company. Now there's, it's one approval and admiration from the highest echelons of this company that, hey this is really providing value. And the company is starting to get views into their business that they didn't have before. >> That's awesome, I mean, I've watched Microfocus for years. So to me they've always had a, their part of their DNA is private equity I mean they're sharp investors, they do great M and A >> CB: Yeah >> They know how to drive value and they're doing modern M and A, you know, we've seen what they what wait, what they did with SUSE, obviously driving value out of Vertica, they've got a really, some sharp financial people there. So that's they must have loved the the Skunkworks, fast ROI you know, small denominator, big numerator. (laughing) >> Well I think that in this case, smaller is better when you're doing development. You know it's a two-minute cooks type of thing and if you've got people who know what they're doing, you know I've got a lot of experience with Vertica, I've been on the advisory board for Vertica for a long time. >> Right And you know I was able to learn from people who had already, we're like the second or third company to do a Pure Flash Blade Vertica installation, but some of the best companies after they've already done it we are members of the advisory board also. So I learned from the best, and we were able to get this thing up and running quickly and we've got you know, a lot of other, you know handful of other key people who know how to write SQL and so forth to get this up and running quickly. >> Yeah so I mean, look it Pure is a fit I mean I sound like a fan boy, but Pure is all about simplicity, so is object. So that means you don't have to ra, you know worry about wrangling storage and worrying about LANs and all that other nonsense and file names but >> I have burned by hardware in the past you know, where oh okay they built into a price and so they cheap out on stuff like fans or other things in these components fail and the whole thing goes down, but this hardware is super good quality. And so I'm happy with the quality of that we're getting. >> So CB last question. What's next for you? Where do you want to take this initiative? >> Well we are in the process now of, we're when, so I designed a system to combine the best of the Kimball approach to data warehousing and the inland approach okay. And what we do is we bring over all the data we've got and we put it into a pristine staging layer. Okay like I said it's a, because it's append-only, it's essentially a log of all the transactions that are happening in this company, just as they appear okay. And then from the Kimball side of things we're designing the data marts now. So that's what the end users actually interact with. So we're taking the, we're examining the transactional systems to say, how are these business objects created? What's the logic there and we're recreating those logical models in Vertica. So we've done a handful of them so far, and it's working out really well. So going forward we've got a lot of work to do, to create just about every object that the company needs. >> CB you're an awesome guest really always a pleasure talking to you and >> Thank you. >> congratulations and good luck going forward stay safe. >> Thank you, you too Dave. >> All right thank you. And thank you for watching the Convergence of File and Object. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE. (soft music)

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's the queue with digital coverage of DockerCon live 2020. Brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome, welcome, welcome to DockerCon 2020. We got over 50,000 people registered so there's clearly a ton of interest in the world of Docker and Eddie's as I like to call it. And we've assembled a power panel of Open Source and cloud native experts to talk about where things stand in 2020 and where we're headed. I'm Shawn Conley, I'll be the moderator for today's panel. I'm also a proud alum of JBoss, Red Hat, SpringSource, VMware and Hortonworks and I'm broadcasting from my hometown of Philly. Our panelists include; Michelle Noorali, Senior Software Engineer at Microsoft, joining us from Atlanta, Georgia. We have Kelsey Hightower, Principal developer advocate at Google Cloud, joining us from Washington State and we have Chris Aniszczyk, CTO CIO at the CNCF, joining us from Austin, Texas. So I think we have the country pretty well covered. Thank you all for spending time with us on this power panel. Chris, I'm going to start with you, let's dive right in. You've been in the middle of the Docker netease wave since the beginning with a clear focus on building a better world through open collaboration. What are your thoughts on how the Open Source landscape has evolved over the past few years? Where are we in 2020? And where are we headed from both community and a tech perspective? Just curious to get things sized up? >> Sure, when CNCF started about roughly four, over four years ago, the technology mostly focused on just the things around Kubernetes, monitoring communities with technology like Prometheus, and I think in 2020 and the future, we definitely want to move up the stack. So there's a lot of tools being built on the periphery now. So there's a lot of tools that handle running different types of workloads on Kubernetes. So things like Uvert and Shay runs VMs on Kubernetes, which is crazy, not just containers. You have folks that, Microsoft experimenting with a project called Kruslet which is trying to run web assembly workloads natively on Kubernetes. So I think what we've seen now is more and more tools built around the periphery, while the core of Kubernetes has stabilized. So different technologies and spaces such as security and different ways to run different types of workloads. And at least that's kind of what I've seen. >> So do you have a fair amount of vendors as well as end users still submitting in projects in, is there still a pretty high volume? >> Yeah, we have 48 total projects in CNCF right now and Michelle could speak a little bit more to this being on the DOC, the pipeline for new projects is quite extensive and it covers all sorts of spaces from two service meshes to security projects and so on. So it's ever so expanding and filling in gaps in that cloud native landscape that we have. >> Awesome. Michelle, Let's head to you. But before we actually dive in, let's talk a little glory days. A rumor has it that you are the Fifth Grade Kickball Championship team captain. (Michelle laughs) Are the rumors true? >> They are, my speech at the end of the year was the first talk I ever gave. But yeah, it was really fun. I wasn't captain 'cause I wasn't really great at anything else apart from constantly cheer on the team. >> A little better than my eighth grade Spelling Champ Award so I think I'd rather have the kickball. But you've definitely, spent a lot of time leading an Open Source, you've been across many projects for many years. So how does the art and science of collaboration, inclusivity and teamwork vary? 'Cause you're involved in a variety of efforts, both in the CNCF and even outside of that. And then what are some tips for expanding the tent of Open Source projects? >> That's a good question. I think it's about transparency. Just come in and tell people what you really need to do and clearly articulate your problem, more clearly articulate your problem and why you can't solve it with any other solution, the more people are going to understand what you're trying to do and be able to collaborate with you better. What I love about Open Source is that where I've seen it succeed is where incentives of different perspectives and parties align and you're just transparent about what you want. So you can collaborate where it makes sense, even if you compete as a company with another company in the same area. So I really like that, but I just feel like transparency and honesty is what it comes down to and clearly communicating those objectives. >> Yeah, and the various foundations, I think one of the things that I've seen, particularly Apache Software Foundation and others is the notion of checking your badge at the door. Because the competition might be between companies, but in many respects, you have engineers across many companies that are just kicking butt with the tech they contribute, claiming victory in one way or the other might make for interesting marketing drama. But, I think that's a little bit of the challenge. In some of the, standards-based work you're doing I know with CNI and some other things, are they similar, are they different? How would you compare and contrast into something a little more structured like CNCF? >> Yeah, so most of what I do is in the CNCF, but there's specs and there's projects. I think what CNCF does a great job at is just iterating to make it an easier place for developers to collaborate. You can ask the CNCF for basically whatever you need, and they'll try their best to figure out how to make it happen. And we just continue to work on making the processes are clearer and more transparent. And I think in terms of specs and projects, those are such different collaboration environments. Because if you're in a project, you have to say, "Okay, I want this feature or I want this bug fixed." But when you're in a spec environment, you have to think a little outside of the box and like, what framework do you want to work in? You have to think a little farther ahead in terms of is this solution or this decision we're going to make going to last for the next how many years? You have to get more of a buy in from all of the key stakeholders and maintainers. So it's a little bit of a longer process, I think. But what's so beautiful is that you have this really solid, standard or interface that opens up an ecosystem and allows people to build things that you could never have even imagined or dreamed of so-- >> Gotcha. So I'm Kelsey, we'll head over to you as your focus is on, developer advocate, you've been in the cloud native front lines for many years. Today developers are faced with a ton of moving parts, spanning containers, functions, Cloud Service primitives, including container services, server-less platforms, lots more, right? I mean, there's just a ton of choice. How do you help developers maintain a minimalist mantra in the face of such a wealth of choice? I think minimalism I hear you talk about that periodically, I know you're a fan of that. How do you pass that on and your developer advocacy in your day to day work? >> Yeah, I think, for most developers, most of this is not really the top of mind for them, is something you may see a post on Hacker News, and you might double click into it. Maybe someone on your team brought one of these tools in and maybe it leaks up into your workflow so you're forced to think about it. But for most developers, they just really want to continue writing code like they've been doing. And the best of these projects they'll never see. They just work, they get out of the way, they help them with log in, they help them run their application. But for most people, this isn't the core idea of the job for them. For people in operations, on the other hand, maybe these components fill a gap. So they look at a lot of this stuff that you see in the CNCF and Open Source space as number one, various companies or teams sharing the way that they do things, right? So these are ideas that are put into the Open Source, some of them will turn into products, some of them will just stay as projects that had mutual benefit for multiple people. But for the most part, it's like walking through an ion like Home Depot. You pick the tools that you need, you can safely ignore the ones you don't need, and maybe something looks interesting and maybe you study it to see if that if you have a problem. And for most people, if you don't have that problem that that tool solves, you should be happy. No one needs every project and I think that's where the foundation for confusion. So my main job is to help people not get stuck and confused in LAN and just be pragmatic and just use the tools that work for 'em. >> Yeah, and you've spent the last little while in the server-less space really diving into that area, compare and contrast, I guess, what you found there, minimalist approach, who are you speaking to from a server-less perspective versus that of the broader CNCF? >> The thing that really pushed me over, I was teaching my daughter how to make a website. So she's on her Chromebook, making a website, and she's hitting 127.0.0.1, and it looks like geo cities from the 90s but look, she's making website. And she wanted her friends to take a look. So she copied and paste from her browser 127.0.0.1 and none of her friends could pull it up. So this is the point where every parent has to cross that line and say, "Hey, do I really need to sit down "and teach my daughter about Linux "and Docker and Kubernetes." That isn't her main goal, her goal was to just launch her website in a way that someone else can see it. So we got Firebase installed on her laptop, she ran one command, Firebase deploy. And our site was up in a few minutes, and she sent it over to her friend and there you go, she was off and running. The whole server-less movement has that philosophy as one of the stated goal that needs to be the workflow. So, I think server-less is starting to get closer and closer, you start to see us talk about and Chris mentioned this earlier, we're moving up the stack. Where we're going to up the stack, the North Star there is feel where you get the focus on what you're doing, and not necessarily how to do it underneath. And I think server-less is not quite there yet but every type of workload, stateless web apps check, event driven workflows check, but not necessarily for things like machine learning and some other workloads that more traditional enterprises want to run so there's still work to do there. So server-less for me, serves as the North Star for why all these Projects exists for people that may have to roll their own platform, to provide the experience. >> So, Chris, on a related note, with what we were just talking about with Kelsey, what's your perspective on the explosion of the cloud native landscape? There's, a ton of individual projects, each can be used separately, but in many cases, they're like Lego blocks and used together. So things like the surface mesh interface, standardizing interfaces, so things can snap together more easily, I think, are some of the approaches but are you doing anything specifically to encourage this cross fertilization and collaboration of bug ability, because there's just a ton of projects, not only at the CNCF but outside the CNCF that need to plug in? >> Yeah, I mean, a lot of this happens organically. CNCF really provides of the neutral home where companies, competitors, could trust each other to build interesting technology. We don't force integration or collaboration, it happens on its own. We essentially allow the market to decide what a successful project is long term or what an integration is. We have a great Technical Oversight Committee that helps shepherd the overall technical vision for the organization and sometimes steps in and tries to do the right thing when it comes to potentially integrating a project. Previously, we had this issue where there was a project called Open Tracing, and an effort called Open Census, which is basically trying to standardize how you're going to deal with metrics, on the tree and so on in a cloud native world that we're essentially competing with each other. The CNCF TC and committee came together and merged those projects into one parent ever called Open Elementary and so that to me is a case study of how our committee helps, bridges things. But we don't force things, we essentially want our community of end users and vendors to decide which technology is best in the long term, and we'll support that. >> Okay, awesome. And, Michelle, you've been focused on making distributed systems digestible, which to me is about simplifying things. And so back when Docker arrived on the scene, some people referred to it as developer dopamine, which I love that term, because it's simplified a bunch of crufty stuff for developers and actually helped them focus on doing their job, writing code, delivering code, what's happening in the community to help developers wire together multi-part modern apps in a way that's elegant, digestible, feels like a dopamine rush? >> Yeah, one of the goals of the(mumbles) project was to make it easier to deploy an application on Kubernetes so that you could see what the finished product looks like. And then dig into all of the things that that application is composed of, all the resources. So we're really passionate about this kind of stuff for a while now. And I love seeing projects that come into the space that have this same goal and just iterate and make things easier. I think we have a ways to go still, I think a lot of the iOS developers and JS developers I get to talk to don't really care that much about Kubernetes. They just want to, like Kelsey said, just focus on their code. So one of the projects that I really like working with is Tilt gives you this dashboard in your CLI, aggregates all your logs from your applications, And it kind of watches your application changes, and reconfigures those changes in Kubernetes so you can see what's going on, it'll catch errors, anything with a dashboard I love these days. So Yali is like a metrics dashboard that's integrated with STL, a service graph of your service mesh, and lets you see the metrics running there. I love that, I love that dashboard so much. Linkerd has some really good service graph images, too. So anything that helps me as an end user, which I'm not technically an end user, but me as a person who's just trying to get stuff up and running and working, see the state of the world easily and digest them has been really exciting to see. And I'm seeing more and more dashboards come to light and I'm very excited about that. >> Yeah, as part of the DockerCon just as a person who will be attending some of the sessions, I'm really looking forward to see where DockerCompose is going, I know they opened up the spec to broader input. I think your point, the good one, is there's a bit more work to really embrace the wealth of application artifacts that compose a larger application. So there's definitely work the broader community needs to lean in on, I think. >> I'm glad you brought that up, actually. Compose is something that I should have mentioned and I'm glad you bring that up. I want to see programming language libraries, integrate with the Compose spec. I really want to see what happens with that I think is great that they open that up and made that a spec because obviously people really like using Compose. >> Excellent. So Kelsey, I'd be remiss if I didn't touch on your January post on changelog entitled, "Monoliths are the Future." Your post actually really resonated with me. My son works for a software company in Austin, Texas. So your hometown there, Chris. >> Yeah. >> Shout out to Will and the chorus team. His development work focuses on adding modern features via micro services as extensions to the core monolith that the company was founded on. So just share some thoughts on monoliths, micro services. And also, what's deliverance dopamine from your perspective more broadly, but people usually phrase as monoliths versus micro services, but I get the sense you don't believe it's either or. >> Yeah, I think most companies from the pragmatic so one of their argument is one of pragmatism. Most companies have trouble designing any app, monolith, deployable or microservices architecture. And then these things evolve over time. Unless you're really careful, it's really hard to know how to slice these things. So taking an idea or a problem and just knowing how to perfectly compartmentalize it into individual deployable component, that's hard for even the best people to do. And double down knowing the actual solution to the particular problem. A lot of problems people are solving they're solving for the first time. It's really interesting, our industry in general, a lot of people who work in it have never solved the particular problem that they're trying to solve for the first time. So that's interesting. The other part there is that most of these tools that are here to help are really only at the infrastructure layer. We're talking freeways and bridges and toll bridges, but there's nothing that happens in the actual developer space right there in memory. So the libraries that interface to the structure logging, the libraries that deal with rate limiting, the libraries that deal with authorization, can this person make this query with this user ID? A lot of those things are still left for developers to figure out on their own. So while we have things like the brunettes and fluid D, we have all of these tools to deploy apps into those target, most developers still have the problem of everything you do above that line. And to be honest, the majority of the complexity has to be resolved right there in the app. That's the thing that's taking requests directly from the user. And this is where maybe as an industry, we're over-correcting. So we had, you said you come from the JBoss world, I started a lot of my Cisco administration, there's where we focus a little bit more on the actual application needs, maybe from a router that as well. But now what we're seeing is things like Spring Boot, start to offer a little bit more integration points in the application space itself. So I think the biggest parts that are missing now are what are the frameworks people will use for authorization? So you have projects like OPA, Open Policy Agent for those that are new to that, it gives you this very low level framework, but you still have to understand the concepts around, what does it mean to allow someone to do something and one missed configuration, all your security goes out of the window. So I think for most developers this is where the next set of challenges lie, if not actually the original challenge. So for some people, they were able to solve most of these problems with virtualization, run some scripts, virtualize everything and be fine. And monoliths were okay for that. For some reason, we've thrown pragmatism out of the window and some people are saying the only way to solve these problems is by breaking the app into 1000 pieces. Forget the fact that you had trouble managing one piece, you're going to somehow find the ability to manage 1000 pieces with these tools underneath but still not solving the actual developer problems. So this is where you've seen it already with a couple of popular blog posts from other companies. They cut too deep. They're going from 2000, 3000 microservices back to maybe 100 or 200. So to my world, it's going to be not just one monolith, but end up maybe having 10 or 20 monoliths that maybe reflect the organization that you have versus the architectural pattern that you're at. >> I view it as like a constellation of stars and planets, et cetera. Where you you might have a star that has a variety of, which is a monolith, and you have a variety of sort of planetary microservices that float around it. But that's reality, that's the reality of modern applications, particularly if you're not starting from a clean slate. I mean your points, a good one is, in many respects, I think the infrastructure is code movement has helped automate a bit of the deployment of the platform. I've been personally focused on app development JBoss as well as springsSource. The Spring team I know that tech pretty well over the years 'cause I was involved with that. So I find that James Governor's discussion of progressive delivery really resonates with me, as a developer, not so much as an infrastructure Deployer. So continuous delivery is more of infrastructure notice notion, progressive delivery, feature flags, those types of things, or app level, concepts, minimizing the blast radius of your, the new features you're deploying, that type of stuff, I think begins to speak to the pain of application delivery. So I'll guess I'll put this up. Michelle, I might aim it to you, and then we'll go around the horn, what are your thoughts on the progressive delivery area? How could that potentially begin to impact cloud native over 2020? I'm looking for some rallying cries that move up the stack and give a set of best practices, if you will. And I think James Governor of RedMonk opened on something that's pretty important. >> Yeah, I think it's all about automating all that stuff that you don't really know about. Like Flagger is an awesome progressive delivery tool, you can just deploy something, and people have been asking for so many years, ever since I've been in this space, it's like, "How do I do AB deployment?" "How do I do Canary?" "How do I execute these different deployment strategies?" And Flagger is a really good example, for example, it's a really good way to execute these deployment strategies but then, make sure that everything's happening correctly via observing metrics, rollback if you need to, so you don't just throw your whole system. I think it solves the problem and allows you to take risks but also keeps you safe in that you can be confident as you roll out your changes that it all works, it's metrics driven. So I'm just really looking forward to seeing more tools like that. And dashboards, enable that kind of functionality. >> Chris, what are your thoughts in that progressive delivery area? >> I mean, CNCF alone has a lot of projects in that space, things like Argo that are tackling it. But I want to go back a little bit to your point around developer dopamine, as someone that probably spent about a decade of his career focused on developer tooling and in fact, if you remember the Eclipse IDE and that whole integrated experience, I was blown away recently by a demo from GitHub. They have something called code spaces, which a long time ago, I was trying to build development environments that essentially if you were an engineer that joined a team recently, you could basically get an environment quickly start it with everything configured, source code checked out, environment properly set up. And that was a very hard problem. This was like before container days and so on and to see something like code spaces where you'd go to a repo or project, open it up, behind the scenes they have a container that is set up for the environment that you need to build and just have a VS code ID integrated experience, to me is completely magical. It hits like developer dopamine immediately for me, 'cause a lot of problems when you're going to work with a project attribute, that whole initial bootstrap of, "Oh you need to make sure you have this library, this install," it's so incredibly painful on top of just setting up your developer environment. So as we continue to move up the stack, I think you're going to see an incredible amount of improvements around the developer tooling and developer experience that people have powered by a lot of this cloud native technology behind the scenes that people may not know about. >> Yeah, 'cause I've been talking with the team over at Docker, the work they're doing with that desktop, enable the aim local environment, make sure it matches as closely as possible as your deployed environments that you might be targeting. These are some of the pains, that I see. It's hard for developers to get bootstrapped up, it might take him a day or two to actually just set up their local laptop and development environment, and particularly if they change teams. So that complexity really corralling that down and not necessarily being overly prescriptive as to what tool you use. So if you're visual code, great, it should feel integrated into that environment, use a different environment or if you feel more comfortable at the command line, you should be able to opt into that. That's some of the stuff I get excited to potentially see over 2020 as things progress up the stack, as you said. So, Michelle, just from an innovation train perspective, and we've covered a little bit, what's the best way for people to get started? I think Kelsey covered a little bit of that, being very pragmatic, but all this innovation is pretty intimidating, you can get mowed over by the train, so to speak. So what's your advice for how people get started, how they get involved, et cetera. >> Yeah, it really depends on what you're looking for and what you want to learn. So, if you're someone who's new to the space, honestly, check out the case studies on cncf.io, those are incredible. You might find environments that are similar to your organization's environments, and read about what worked for them, how they set things up, any hiccups they crossed. It'll give you a broad overview of the challenges that people are trying to solve with the technology in this space. And you can use that drill into the areas that you want to learn more about, just depending on where you're coming from. I find myself watching old KubeCon talks on the cloud native computing foundations YouTube channel, so they have like playlists for all of the conferences and the special interest groups in CNCF. And I really enjoy talking, I really enjoy watching excuse me, older talks, just because they explain why things were done, the way they were done, and that helps me build the tools I built. And if you're looking to get involved, if you're building projects or tools or specs and want to contribute, we have special interest groups in the CNCF. So you can find that in the CNCF Technical Oversight Committee, TOC GitHub repo. And so for that, if you want to get involved there, choose a vertical. Do you want to learn about observability? Do you want to drill into networking? Do you care about how to deliver your app? So we have a cig called app delivery, there's a cig for each major vertical, and you can go there to see what is happening on the edge. Really, these are conversations about, okay, what's working, what's not working and what are the next changes we want to see in the next months. So if you want that kind of granularity and discussion on what's happening like that, then definitely join those those meetings. Check out those meeting notes and recordings. >> Gotcha. So on Kelsey, as you look at 2020 and beyond, I know, you've been really involved in some of the earlier emerging tech spaces, what gets you excited when you look forward? What gets your own level of dopamine up versus the broader community? What do you see coming that we should start thinking about now? >> I don't think any of the raw technology pieces get me super excited anymore. Like, I've seen the circle of around three or four times, in five years, there's going to be a new thing, there might be a new foundation, there'll be a new set of conferences, and we'll all rally up and probably do this again. So what's interesting now is what people are actually using the technology for. Some people are launching new things that maybe weren't possible because infrastructure costs were too high. People able to jump into new business segments. You start to see these channels on YouTube where everyone can buy a mic and a B app and have their own podcasts and be broadcast to the globe, just for a few bucks, if not for free. Those revolutionary things are the big deal and they're hard to come by. So I think we've done a good job democratizing these ideas, distributed systems, one company got really good at packaging applications to share with each other, I think that's great, and never going to reset again. And now what's going to be interesting is, what will people build with this stuff? If we end up building the same things we were building before, and then we're talking about another digital transformation 10 years from now because it's going to be funny but Kubernetes will be the new legacy. It's going to be the things that, "Oh, man, I got stuck in this Kubernetes thing," and there'll be some governor on TV, looking for old school Kubernetes engineers to migrate them to some new thing, that's going to happen. You got to know that. So at some point merry go round will stop. And we're going to be focused on what you do with this. So the internet is there, most people have no idea of the complexities of underwater sea cables. It's beyond one or two people, or even one or two companies to comprehend. You're at the point now, where most people that jump on the internet are talking about what you do with the internet. You can have Netflix, you can do meetings like this one, it's about what you do with it. So that's going to be interesting. And we're just not there yet with tech, tech is so, infrastructure stuff. We're so in the weeds, that most people almost burn out what's just getting to the point where you can start to look at what you do with this stuff. So that's what I keep in my eye on, is when do we get to the point when people just ship things and build things? And I think the closest I've seen so far is in the mobile space. If you're iOS developer, Android developer, you use the SDK that they gave you, every year there's some new device that enables some new things speech to text, VR, AR and you import an STK, and it just worked. And you can put it in one place and 100 million people can download it at the same time with no DevOps team, that's amazing. When can we do that for server side applications? That's going to be something I'm going to find really innovative. >> Excellent. Yeah, I mean, I could definitely relate. I was Hortonworks in 2011, so, Hadoop, in many respects, was sort of the precursor to the Kubernetes area, in that it was, as I like to refer to, it was a bunch of animals in the zoo, wasn't just the yellow elephant. And when things mature beyond it's basically talking about what kind of analytics are driving, what type of machine learning algorithms and applications are they delivering? You know that's when things tip over into a real solution space. So I definitely see that. I think the other cool thing even just outside of the container and container space, is there's just such a wealth of data related services. And I think how those two worlds come together, you brought up the fact that, in many respects, server-less is great, it's stateless, but there's just a ton of stateful patterns out there that I think also need to be addressed as these richer applications to be from a data processing and actionable insights perspective. >> I also want to be clear on one thing. So some people confuse two things here, what Michelle said earlier about, for the first time, a whole group of people get to learn about distributed systems and things that were reserved to white papers, PhDs, CF site, this stuff is now super accessible. You go to the CNCF site, all the things that you read about or we used to read about, you can actually download, see how it's implemented and actually change how it work. That is something we should never say is a waste of time. Learning is always good because someone has to build these type of systems and whether they sell it under the guise of server-less or not, this will always be important. Now the other side of this is, that there are people who are not looking to learn that stuff, the majority of the world isn't looking. And in parallel, we should also make this accessible, which should enable people that don't need to learn all of that before they can be productive. So that's two sides of the argument that can be true at the same time, a lot of people get caught up. And everything should just be server-less and everyone learning about distributed systems, and contributing and collaborating is wasting time. We can't have a world where there's only one or two companies providing all infrastructure for everyone else, and then it's a black box. We don't need that. So we need to do both of these things in parallel so I just want to make sure I'm clear that it's not one of these or the other. >> Yeah, makes sense, makes sense. So we'll just hit the final topic. Chris, I think I'll ask you to help close this out. COVID-19 clearly has changed how people work and collaborate. I figured we'd end on how do you see, so DockerCon is going to virtual events, inherently the Open Source community is distributed and is used to not face to face collaboration. But there's a lot of value that comes together by assembling a tent where people can meet, what's the best way? How do you see things playing out? What's the best way for this to evolve in the face of the new normal? >> I think in the short term, you're definitely going to see a lot of virtual events cropping up all over the place. Different themes, verticals, I've already attended a handful of virtual events the last few weeks from Red Hat summit to Open Compute summit to Cloud Native summit, you'll see more and more of these. I think, in the long term, once the world either get past COVID or there's a vaccine or something, I think the innate nature for people to want to get together and meet face to face and deal with all the serendipitous activities you would see in a conference will come back, but I think virtual events will augment these things in the short term. One benefit we've seen, like you mentioned before, DockerCon, can have 50,000 people at it. I don't remember what the last physical DockerCon had but that's definitely an order of magnitude more. So being able to do these virtual events to augment potential of physical events in the future so you can build a more inclusive community so people who cannot travel to your event or weren't lucky enough to win a scholarship could still somehow interact during the course of event to me is awesome and I hope something that we take away when we start all doing these virtual events when we get back to physical events, we find a way to ensure that these things are inclusive for everyone and not just folks that can physically make it there. So those are my thoughts on on the topic. And I wish you the best of luck planning of DockerCon and so on. So I'm excited to see how it turns out. 50,000 is a lot of people and that just terrifies me from a cloud native coupon point of view, because we'll probably be somewhere. >> Yeah, get ready. Excellent, all right. So that is a wrap on the DockerCon 2020 Open Source Power Panel. I think we covered a ton of ground. I'd like to thank Chris, Kelsey and Michelle, for sharing their perspectives on this continuing wave of Docker and cloud native innovation. I'd like to thank the DockerCon attendees for tuning in. And I hope everybody enjoys the rest of the conference. (upbeat music)

>> live from Washington, D. C. It's the Cube covering a ws public sector summit I wrote to you by Amazon Web services. Welcome >> back, everyone. You are watching the Cube and we are here in our nation's capital at the A. W s Public sector summit. I'm your host, Rebecca Night hosting alongside John Furrier. We're joining Cuba LEM Doug Van Dyke, CEO of Inquisitor to our show. Thanks so much for coming back on. >> Well, thank you for having me back. It's good to be here. >> So as I said, You're a Cuba LEM. You're also a nails on alum. And there's a story there, so >> we'll just do a quick rehash of last year. So I started a day ws in 2,012 with the federal business helped the federal business grow started. The eight of US nonprofit Vertical was invited by John and in stew last year to be on the Cube. The video is a great discussion. The video is seen by some of our best partners and inquisitor who happens to be one of the best partners that I had in public sector. We started some discussions and later I was hired to be the CEO. So, John, >> thank you. I didn't know this was >> going to be a career opportunity >> for you. You're the one who's got the jobs. You through the interviews? Well, political, absolutely appreciated community. Great to have you on. Good. Thank you. Thank you for meeting with Theresa. You've known Therese for many, many years. Microsoft Public Sector Game is certainly on fire. You got Andy chassis on the fireside chat. Kind of bring in. You see the frustration like he's got problems and he's never known any for many, many years. For him to be that animated with his opinion means that it's critical more more than ever. Now, where is public sector opportunity right now? Because it seems to be clouds validated, are we? There is just a turning moment for the whole public sector community, >> yet we're so we're absolutely seeing that and inquisitive fact inquisitor. One of the things I like most about inquisitor is it is focused exclusively on the public sector, so our background is in education. If you know, a student is graduating from high school now and applying to one of the many colleges and universities they use the common application We worked with the common app to help build that system that graduating students can apply to multiple universities as opposed to when I was a graduating high school student, had to fill out the form, send in a check, wait for it to come back in the mail. Now that's all done online. You can apply to multiple colleges at the same time. So I look at that as one of the first innovations that happened in the public sector on a ws inquisitor was a part of it. It was one of the things that attracted me to inquisitor, but the innovations that was in two thousand 92 1,010 it was the beginning. We are just hitting that hockey stick that Andy has talked about in public sector, where you know, the federal business. You talked a little bit about the Intel business and how when the agency moved onto a ws, it really validated security. I think we've seen the government go in. I think we've seen education and nonprofits, so I think this is the time that public sector is really going to take off in the clouds >> about the company that you're leading is the chief now, and the product is using common app. You tell what the common app that my high school's graduates had to fill out. Okay, it's send okay. Is that it? >> That's it. That's it. So I >> got some issues with this thing. >> So follow up that was >> definitely on love on different you. Heavy lifting when filling out applications. Automate is great, but it increases the MAWR schools you can apply to, so creates more inbound applications to schools. It does. I'm sure there's some challenges there that's on the horizon with you guys is solving them that creates more. I won't say span because this legit, but a lot of schools are like people throwing in 17 applications now. 20 applications. >> Well, it's automated. I >> mean technology. So, yes, there's more automation, but there's more background. There's more data and these surgeries going on database decision. So sure we'll let me start with inquisitor. You asked about inquisitive 2,000 to quiz it's started and doing application development. It was in two thousand nine that we really saw the light to move Teo a Ws, and it was through the work that we were doing with the common app that we realised the scale of handling all these applications, that the paper based way isn't an easier. In fact, it really restricts the number of colleges that students can apply, and it restricts the number of applicants that colleges get. So with more students applying to more universities and universities receiving more applications, they can be really selective. They have more data sources, more information aboutthe people. They're going to bring on and have a very inclusive and representative university. We have students applying from China and Europe, too, United States University. So we're getting a lot of diversity, and I think you know, there's probably a little bit more volume, but that's what technology >> today is the first digital data. So that's why I appreciate that. But there's gotta be more automation machine learning going in because now you have a relationship with a student and a school. What, what's next? What happens next? >> Well, it's so Sky's the limit, and you can do once you've got data. So data reporting is basically limited by the quality of the input data. So you have more students applying with more background information, and you could get really personal. So we helped a large Ivy League university in the Northeast migrate all into a ws. And this was after we worked with common app to build the common application way helped this university migrate all into a ws and we realized that there were benefits and challenges along the way. Some of the challenges we saw were repeatable, so we built a proprietary product called Sky Map. And what sky map does is it helps the full migration. So it integrates with your discovery applications like a risk network. It integrates with a ws cloud endure and we were working with cloud endure before a ws acquired them. So we have a p I's there, it manages the whole migration. And your question was, you get all this information about an organization's infrastructure, what do you do with it? Will use the next up is a M l. So we've used some of the higher level services that a bit Amazon Web services has with artificial intelligence. We were using Lambda Server lis and we could go there because I think that's and you've >> got to hand over their 80 must educate. >> Oh, yeah, >> you know, you're great. Get a common app over there. Any university coming soon >> I would Did he mention that I saw he was >> on the show before? >> And I just think that it was You got a huge inbound educational thing going on. So education seems to be a big part of the whole themes here. >> Well, that's our legacy, and we're working with a lot of universities were seeing. So you asked, Where is the cloud going? And in the future, we're seeing large universities move all in on a WS because of they're going to get more flexibility. The costs are going to go down. They're going to have more information on the students. They're going to be able to provide better learning. >> When you're talking to your client of this this big Ivy league in the Northeast, what are its pain points? Because I mean, college admissions is a controversial topic in the United States, and its been there's been scandal this year. What? When? When you were talking with this company and they said, Well, we want to do this. But what was the problem they were trying to solve? I mean, what what were they? What were their pain points. >> Well, one of the first pain points is they were located in a major city and their data center was in the major city. And this is expensive real estate. And so to use expensive real estate that you for date us, you know, for servers, etcetera for data center instead of using it for education is a cost to the university. So very simply put, moving out of that data center opening that space up for education and moving into a ws cloud saved it gave them more space for education. It helped them with cost avoidance, and way had a bunch of lessons learned along the way. So way at the time could move about five servers a week, which may seem like a good number. But now, with the automation that we get through sky map our product, we're working with the large a group of private universities as well as Wharton University. And with this large group of private universities, we found we could do on average over 20 the best week we had 37 servers migrate, hire >> a housefly. They like to be on the cutting edge, but still there public sector. Where's the modernisation Progress on that? Because now you're you've been on both sides of the table. You were Amazon Web services. Now years leading is the CEO of this company in higher ed. How's that modernization going? What's your perspective? What's your observation around? >> Sure, So you know. First of all, I had the opportunity to go work it with the university that's local here last week. And what I love seeing is with this access to the cloud you've got, everyone in the university now has access to nearly unlimited resource is for education. They were staffing their own help desk with their students. And I love seeing that kind of experience being brought from, You know, someone who used to be an IT professional is now being brought down to a student because of thes new technologies are so readily accessible to everybody. >> So so what's that? Tell us some other things that you're seeing that you're hearing. They're they're exciting innovations to you in the in the sector. >> Yeah, well, another opportunity that were working with is we worked with the Small Business Administration, and that was pretty rewarding. For us is a small business and three of the applications that we worked on their were. So we are a small a day, and it used to take our founder TC Ratna pur e about two months. Oh, and we had to hire an outside consultant to apply for our small business accreditation. So he was doing the paperwork and all the, you know, the old school application certification. After we built this application with the Small Business Administration, it took him several hours. He did it by himself. We applied. Got the accreditation. So thes modernizations air happening both in universities as well as in the federal government. >> So what's your business plan? You're the CEO now. What's the company's plan? Which your goals. >> So there's so many things I could talk about ill talk about one or two. We see in the next 1 2 3 to 5 years in public sector that these organizations are going to migrate all in on the cloud. And so we're building up a group. That's what Sky map is mainly addressing is way. Want to make sure that organizations are able tto orchestrate their move to the cloud and we're using? We're going to start exposing the tool that we use for our own internal resource is we're gonna start exposing that, leaving that with universities in the federal government and anyone else who's willing to use it to help them get all in on the cloud. Then we think there's probably going to be a wave where they're trying. Teo, learn the cloud and howto operate It will help them is a manage service provider. And then where I'm excited is you go to server lists and I mentioned were already using Lambda for our sky map product that we see in the future after the M S P V organisations. They're going to be servant lis and they'll be running into no ops environments. >> The classic example of sometimes you your business evolves areas you don't know based off on the wave You're on you guys, we're very proficient at migrating We are now You got sky map which is you're gonna take that those learnings and pay it forward bringing >> that are bringing them to the market that >> we don't have to do that themselves by build kind of thing. >> Well, and it's a little bit like you're doing here, John. And what a ws >> is the only one I get up. I tell everybody that, like >> a ws did eight of us start is away for Amazon to manage their internal servers. And, you know, eventually they realized everyone else in the market can use thes same innovations that they've got. And, >> well, I think this proves the point that if you assassin based model with open AP eyes, you Khun offer and pretty much anything is a service. If you get the speed and agility equation right, someone might say why she is not a court company. Why should I buy? I'll just use that service. I hope so. It's the sad, small hopes up. >> Yeah, and sorry. >> I was going to say you were on the inside. Now you're on the outside of that. This conference. What are your impressions? What are you What kind of conversations are you having that you are going to take back to inquisitor and say, Hey, I learned this at the summit. Are these people over here working on something cool? We got to get this in >> here. Well, it's been really fun for me is a change of perspective. For the last seven years, I've been helping plan and organize the event. Make sure it >> goes off this time. I'm a guest. You know, e I look a little bit >> more relaxed than last year is because, you know, I'm a guest now, but the takeaways are really You know, the innovation is continuing at A W s. And, you know, as a partner of Amazon Web services, I've got to make sure that my team and I stay up to date with all of the services that are being released and simplify those. And, like John was asking earlier, you know, make sure that there's a strategy for migration support and then continuing to re factor what they're doing. >> Well, congratulations on the new job. Get a great tale. When, with cloud growth adoption just early days, public sector continuing toe astonished with numbers. Next, she'll be 38,000 people. A lawsuit is like reinvent size, only 30,000 people. >> This is huge. It's a pleasure to be here. I'm sure you guys are enjoying it as well. >> Yeah, I know. It's been great, Doug. Thanks so much for returning to the Q B. I your two time >> alone. Thank you. Thank >> you. I'm Rebecca Knight for John Furrier. We will have more from the Amazon, Uh, a ws public sector, something coming up in just a little bit.

>> Voiceover: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's the Cube, covering OpenStack Summit 2017. Brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat, and additional Ecosystem as support. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman joined by John Troyer. This is Silken Angle Media's production of the Cube at OpenStack Summit. We're the world wide leader in tech coverage, live tech coverage. Happy to welcome back to the program someone we've had on so many times we can't keep track. He is the creator of the term Pets versus Cattle, he is one of the OG of The Cloud Group, Randy, you know, wrote about everything before most of it was done. So good to see you, thank you for joining us. >> Thanks for having me. >> Alright, so Randy, coming into this show we felt that it was a bit of resetting expectations, people not understanding, you know, where infrastructure's going, a whole hybrid multi-cloud world, so, I mean you've told us all how it's going to go, so where are we today, what have people been getting wrong, what's your take coming into this week and what you've seen? >> Well, I've said it before, which is that the public clouds have done more than just deliver compute storage and networking on demand. What they've really done is they've built these massive development organizations. They're very sophisticated, that are, you know, that really come from that Webscale background and move at a velocity that's really different than anything we've seen before, and I think the hope in the early days of OpenStack was that we would achieve a similar kind of velocity and momentum, but I think the reality is is that it just hasn't really materialized; that while there are a lot of projects and there are a lot of contributors the coordination between them is very poor, and you know it's just not the, like architectural oversight that we really needed isn't there. I, a couple years ago at the Openstack Silicon Valley gave a presentation called The Lie of the Benevolent Dictator, and I chartered a course for how we could actually have more of a technical architecture oversight, and just that really fell on deaf ears. And so we continue to do the same thing and expect different results and I just, that's a little disappointing for me. >> Yeah. So what is your view of hybrid cloud? You know, no disagreement, you look at what the public cloud companies, especially the big three, the development that they can do, Amazon, a thousand new features a year, Google, what they can do with data, Microsoft has a whole lot of applications and communities around them. We're mostly talking about private cloud here, it was a term that you fought against for many years, we've had great debates on it, so how does that hybrid play out? Cause customers, they're keeping on premises. Edge fits into a lot of this too, so it's, there's not one winner, it's not a zero sum game, but how does that hybrid cloud work? >> Yeah so, I didn't fight against private cloud, I qualified it. I said if it's going to be a private cloud it's got to be built and look and smell the way that the public cloud was. Alright? If it's just VM ware with VM's on demand, that's not a private cloud. That was my position. And then in terms of hybrid cloud, you know, I don't think we're there yet. I've presented on this at many different OpenStacks, you can see it in the past, and I sort of laid out what needs to happen and that didn't happen. But I think there's hope, and I think the hope comes in the form of Kubernetes, and to a certain degree, Helm. And the reason that Kubernetes with Helm is very powerful is that Kubernetes gives us a computive traction, so that you don't care if you're on the public cloud, or you know OpenStack or Vmware or whatever, and then what Helm gives us is our charts, so ways to deploy services, not just software, and so what we could think about doing in the future is building hybrid cloud based off of Kubernetes and Helm. >> Yeah, so Randy since last time we talked you've got a new role, you're now with Juniper. Juniper had done a Contrail acquisition. You know, quite a few years back you wrote a good blueprint on one of the Juniper forums about the OpenContrail communities. So tell us a little bit about your role, your goals, in that community. >> So OpenContrail has been a primarily Juniper initiative, and we're going to press the reset button on the OpenContrail community. I'm going to do it tonight and call for people to sort of get involved in doing that reset, and when I say reset I mean, wipe the operating system, reload it from scratch, and do it really as a community, not just as a Juniper run initiative, and so people inside Juniper are very excited about this, and what we're trying to do is that we believe that the path forward for OpenContrail is ubiquitous adoption. So rather then playing for just the pieces that we have, which we've done a great job of, we want to take the world's best SDN controller and we want to make sure everybody uses it, because we think aggregate that's good for not only the entire community but also Juniper. >> So, love the idea of kind of rebooting the community in the open, right, because you have to be transparent about these sort of things. >> Randy: Yeah, that's right. >> What are the community segments that you would like to see join you here in the OpenContrail? What kind of users, what kind of companies would you like to see come in to the tent? >> Well anybody's welcome, but we want to start with all of our key stakeholders that exist today, so first one, and arguably one of the most important is our competitors, right so we're hoping to have Mirantis at the table, maybe Ericcson, Huawei, anybody. Cisco, hey come join the party. Second is that we have done really well in Sass and in gaming, and we'd like to see all of those companies come to the table as well, Workday, Symantech, and so on. The third segment is enterprises, we've done well in financial services, we think that that's a really important segment because they're leading edge of enterprises typically, and the fourth is the carrier's obviously incredibly important for Juniper, folks like AT&T, Direction Telecom, all those companies we'd love to see come to the table. And then that's really the primary focus, and then anybody else who wants to show up, anybody who wants to develop in Contrail in the future we'd love to have there. >> Well with open source communities, right, there's always a balance of the contributors and developers versus operators, and we can use the word contributors in a lot of roles. Some open source communities, much more developer focused, >> Randy: That's right. >> Others more operator focused, where do you see this OpenContrail community starting out? >> So where it's been historically is more of our end users and operators. >> I think that's interesting and an interesting twist because I think sometimes open source communities get stuck with just the people who can contribute code, and I'm from an operator community myself, >> Randy: Right. >> So I think that's really interesting. >> We still want all those people but I think what has happened is that when people have come in and they wanted to be more sort of on the developer side, the community hasn't been friendly to them. >> John: Okay. >> Randy: And so we want, that's a key thing that we want to change. You know when we were talking, to certain carriers they came and they said look, it's great you're going to do this, we want to be a part of it, and one of the things we'd like to contribute is more advanced testing around VMFs. And I just look at that and I'm just like that's what we need, right? Juniper is not, can't carry all the water on having, you know, sophisticated test suites for VMFs and more advanced networking use cases, but the carriers are deep into this and we'd love to have them come and bring that. So not just developers, but also QA, people who want to increase the code quality, the architectural quality, and the aggregate value of OpenContrail. >> Okay, Randy can you help place OpenContrail where it fits in this kind of networking spectrum, especially, there's open source things, we've talked about about VPP a couple times on theCube here. The joke for many years was SDN still does nothing, NFV solutions have grown, have been huge use case, is really where the early money for big deployments have been for OpenStack. Where does OpenContrail fit, where does it kind of compare and contrast against some of the other options out there. >> I'm going to answer that slightly differently. I've been skeptical about SDN overlays for a long time, and now I am helping with one of the world's best SDN overlays, and what's changed for me is that in the last year I've seen key customers of Contrail's, of Juniper's actually do something very interesting, right. You've got an SDN overlay, it's complex, it's hard to void, you got to wonder, why should I do this? Well I thought the same thing about virtualization, right, until I figured out, sort of what was the killer app. And what we've seen is a company, one of our customers, and several others, but one in particular I can talk about publicly, Riot Games, take containers and OpenContrail and marry them so that you have an abstraction around compute, and an abstraction around networking, so that their developers can write to that, and they don't care whether that's running on top of public cloud, private cloud, or in some partner's data center globally. And in fact they're going to talk about that today at OpenContrail days at 3:30, and are going to present a lot more details, and that's amazing to me because by abstracting a way and disintermediating the public clouds, you actually have more power, right. You can build your own framework. And if you're using Kubernetes as a baseline you can do a lot more on top of that computing network abstraction. >> You talked about OpenContrail days, again my first summit, I've actually been impressed by the foundation, acknowledging there's a huge landscape of open source and other technologies around there, OpenStack itself doesn't invent everything. Can you talk a little bit about that kind of attitude of bringing, I mean we talk about Kubernetes and that sort of thing, but all the other CNCF projects, monitoring, even components like SCD, right, we're talking about here at this conference. So, can you talk a little bit about how OpenStack can interact with the rest of the open source and cloud native at-large community? >> That's sort of a tough question John. >> John: Okay. >> I mean the reason I say that is like the origins of OpenStack are very much NIH and there has been a very disturbing tendency to sort of re-invent the wheel. A great example is Keystone, still to this day I don't know why Keystone exists and why we created a whole new authentic standard when there were dozens and dozens of battle-tested, battle-hardened protocols and bits of code that existed prior. It's great that we're getting a little bit better at that but I still sense that the origins of the community and some of the technical leadership have resistance to organizing and working with outside components and playing nice. So, it's better but it's not great, it's not where it should be. Really OpenStack needs to be broken down into a lot of different projects that can compete with each other and all run in parallel without having to be so tightly wound together. It's still disappointing to me that we aren't doing that today. >> Randy, wonder if you could give us a little bit of a personal reflection, you've been involved in cloud many years, we've talked about some of the state of it, where do you think enterprises are when they think about their IT, how IT relates to business, some of the big challenges they're facing, and kind of this rapid pace of change that's happening in our industry right now >> Yeah well the pressures just increase. The need to pick up speed and to move faster and to have a greater velocity, that's not going away, that seems to be like an incredible macro-trend that's just going to keep driving people towards the next event. But what I see is that the tension between the infra-structure IT teams and the line of business hasn't really started to get resolved. You see a lot of enterprises back into using DevOps as a way to try to fix the culture change problems but it's just not happening fast enough. I have a lot of concerns that basically private cloud or private infra-structure for enterprises will just not materialize in the way it needs to for the next generation. And that the line of business will continue to just keep moving to public cloud. All the while all the money that's being reinvested in the public cloud is increasing their capabilities in terms feature sets and security capabilities and so on. I just, I don't see the materialization of private cloud happening very well at this point in time and I don't see any trendlines that tell me it's going to change. >> Yeah, what recommendations do you give today to the OpenStack foundation? I know that you haven't been shy in the past about giving guidance as to the direction, what do you think needs to happen to be able to help customers along that journey that they need? >> I don't give any guidance to the OpenStack Foundation anymore, I'm not on the Board of Directors, and frankly I gave a lot of advice in the past that fell on deaf ears and people were unwilling to make the changes that were necessary I think to create success. And even though I was eventually proven right, there doesn't seem to be an appetite for change. I would say that the hard partition between the Board of Directors and the technical committee that was created at the outset with the founding of the Foundation has let to a big problem which is that there's simply business concerns that are technical concerns and there are technical concerns which are business concerns and the actual structure of the Foundation does not allow that to occur because that hard partition between them. So if people on Board of Directors can't actually tell the TC that they'd like to see certain technical changes because they're business concerns and Technical Committee can't tell the Board of Directors they'd like to see business changes made because they're technical concerns around them. And I think that's, it's fundamentally broken until the bylaws are fixed. >> So Randy beyond what we've talked about already what's exciting you these days, you look at like the serverless trend, is that something that you find intriguing or maybe contrary view on it, what's exciting you these days? >> Serverless is really interesting. In fact I'd like to see serverless at the edge. I think it would be fascinating if Amazon webservices could sell a serverless capability that was actually running in the mobile carriers edge. So like on the mobile towers or in essential offices. But you could do distributive computation for IOT literally at the very edge of the network, that would be incredibly powerful. So I am very interested in serverless in that regard. With Kubernetes, I think that this is the future, I think I've seen most of the other initiatives start to fail at this point. Docker Incorporated just hasn't made the progress they need to, hopefully a change in leadership will fix that. But it does mean that more and more people are gravitating towards Kubernetes and that's a thing because whereas OpenStack is historically got no opinion, Kubernetes is a much more prescriptive model and I think that actually leads to faster innovation, a greater pace of change and combined with Helm charts, I think that we're going to see an ecosystem develop around Kubernetes that actually could be a counterweight to the public clouds and really be sort of cloud agnostic. Private, public, at the edge, who cares? >> Randy Bias, always appreciated your very opinionated viewpoints on everything that are happening here. Pleasure to catch up with you as always. John and I will be back will lots more coverage here from OpenStack Summit in Boston, thanks for watching the Cube.