>> Narrator: theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies, creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back to the Fira in Barcelona. This is Dave Vellante with David Nicholson. Lisa Martin is also here. This is day two of our coverage of MWC 23 on theCUBE. We're super excited. We're in between hall four and five. Stop by if you're here. Dennis Hoffman is here. He's the senior vice president and general manager of the Telecom systems business at Dell Technologies, and he's joined by Yousef Khalidi, who's the corporate vice president of Azure for Operators from Microsoft. Gents, Welcome. >> Thanks, Dave. >> Thank you. >> So we saw Satya in the keynote. He wired in. We saw T.K. came in. No AWS. I don't know. They're maybe not part of the show, but maybe next year they'll figure it out. >> Indeed, indeed. >> Lots of stuff happened in the Telecom, but the Azure operator distributed service is the big news, you guys got here. What's that all about? >> Oh, first of all, we changed the name. >> Oh, you did? >> You did? >> Oh, yeah. We have a real name now. It's called the Azure Operator Nexus. >> Oh, I like Nexus better than that. >> David: That's much better, much better. >> Dave: The engineers named it first time around. >> I wish, long story, but thank you for our marketing team. But seriously, not only did we rename the platform, we expanded the platform. >> Dave: Yeah. >> So it now covers the whole spectrum from the far-edge to the public cloud as well, including the near-edge as well. So essentially, it's a hybrid platform that can also run network functions. So all these operators around you, they now have a platform which combines cloud technologies with the choice where they want to run, optimized for the network. >> Okay and so, you know, we've talked about the disaggregation of the network and how you're bringing kind of engineered systems to the table. We've seen this movie before, but Dennis, there are differences, right? I mean, you didn't really have engineered systems in the 90s. You didn't have those integration points. You really didn't have the public cloud, you didn't have AI. >> Right. >> So you have all those new powers that you can tap, so give us the update from your perspective, having now spent a day and a half here. What's the vibe, what's the buzz, and what's your take on everything? >> Yeah, I think to build on what Yousef said, there's a lot going on with people still trying to figure out exactly how to architect the Telecom network of the future. They know it's got to have a lot to do with cloud. It does have some pretty significant differences, one of those being, there's definitely got to be a hybrid component because there are pieces of the Telecom network that even when modernized will not end up centralized, right? They're going to be highly distributed. I would say though, you know, we took away two things, yesterday, from all the meetings. One, people are done, I think the network operators are done, questioning technology readiness. They're now beginning to wrestle with operationalization of it all, right? So it's like, okay, it's here. I can in fact build a modern network in a very cloud native way, but I've got to figure out how to do that all. And another big part of it is the ecosystem and certainly the partnership long standing between Dell and Microsoft which we're extending into this space is part of that, making it easier on people to actually acquire, deploy, and importantly, support these new technologies. >> So a lot of the traditional carriers, like you said, they're sort of beyond the technology readiness. Jose Maria Alvarez in the keynote said there are three pillars to the future Telecom network. He said low latency, programmable networks, and then cloud and edge, kind of threw that in. You agree with that, Yousef? (Dave and Yousef speaking altogether) >> I mean, we've been for years talking about the cloud and edge. >> Yeah. >> Satya for years had the same graphic. We still have it. Today, we have expanded the graphic a bit to include the network as one, because you can have a cloud without connectivity as well but this is very, very, very, very much true. >> And so the question then, Dennis, is okay, you've got disruptors, we had Dish on yesterday. >> Oh, did you? Good. >> Yeah, yeah, and they're talking about what they're doing with, you know, ORAN and all the applications, really taking account of it. What I see is a developer friendly, you know, environment. You got the carriers talking about how they're going to charge developers for APIs. I think they've published eight APIs which is nowhere near enough. So you've got that sort of, you know, inertia and yet, you have the disruptors that are going to potentially be a catalyst to, you know, cross the chasm, if you will. So, you know, put on your strategy hat. >> Yeah. >> Dave: How do you see that playing out? >> Well, they're trying to tap into three things, the disruptors. You know, I think the thesis is, "If I get to a truly cloud native, communications network first, I ought to have greater agility so that I can launch more services and create more revenue streams. I ought to be lower cost in terms of both acquisition cost and operating cost, right, and I ought to be able to create scale between my IT organization, everything I know how to do there and my Telecom network." You know, classic, right? Better, faster, cheaper if I embrace cloud early on. And people like Dish, you know, they have a clean sheet of paper with which to do that. So innovation and rate of innovation is huge for them. >> So what would you do? We put your Clay Christensen hat on, now. What if you were at a traditional Telco who's like, complaining about- >> You're going to get me in trouble. >> Dave: Come on, come on. >> Don't do it. >> Dave: Help him out. Help him out, help him out. So if, you know, they're complaining about CapEx, they're highly regulated, right, they want net neutrality but they want to be able to sort of dial up the cost of those using the network. So what would you do? Would you try to disrupt yourself? Would you create a skunkworks? Would you kind of spin off a disruptor? That's a real dilemma for those guys. >> Well for mobile network operators, the beauty of 5G is it's the first cloud native cellular standard. So I don't know if anybody's throwing these terms around, but 5G SA is standalone, right? >> Dave: Yeah, yeah. >> So a lot of 'em, it's not a skunkworks. They're just literally saying, "I've got to have a 5G network." And some of 'em are deciding, "I'm going to stand it up all by itself." Now, that's duplicative expense in a lot of ways, but it creates isolation from the two networks. Others are saying, "No, it's got to be NSA. I've got to be able to combine 4G and 5G." And then you're into the brownfield thing. >> That's the hybrid. >> Not hybrid as in cloud, but hybrid as in, you know. >> Yeah, yeah. >> It's a converge network. >> Dave: Yeah, yeah. >> So, you know, I would say for a lot of them, they're adopting, probably rightly so, a wait and see attitude. One thing we haven't talked about and you got to get on the table, their high order bit is resilience. >> Dave: Yeah, totally. >> David: Yeah. >> Right? Can't go down. It's national, secure infrastructure, first responder. >> Indeed. >> Anytime you ask them to embrace any new technology, the first thing that they have to work through in their minds is, you know, "Is the juice worth the squeeze? Like, can I handle the risk?" >> But you're saying they're not questioning the technology. Aren't they questioning ORAN in terms of the quality of service, or are they beyond that? >> Dennis: They're questioning the timing, not the inevitability. >> Okay, so they agree that ORAN is going to be open over time. >> At some point, RAN will be cloud native, whether it's ORAN the spec, open RAN the concept, (Yousef speaking indistinctly) >> Yeah. >> Virtual RAN. But yeah, I mean I think it seems pretty evident at this point that the mainframe will give way to open systems once again. >> Dave: Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> ERAN, ecosystem RAN. >> Any RAN. (Dave laughing) >> You don't have to start with the ORAN where they're inside the house. So as you probably know, our partner AT&T started with the core. >> Dennis: They almost all have. >> And they've been on the virtualization path since 2014 and 15. And what we are working with them on is the hybrid cloud model to expand all the way, if you will, as I mentioned to the far-edge or the public cloud. So there's a way to be in the brownfield environment, yet jump on the new bandwagon of technology without necessarily taking too much risk, because you're quite right. I mean, resiliency, security, service assurance, I mean, for example, AT&T runs the first responder network for the US on their network, on our platform, and I'm personally very familiar of how high the bar is. So it's doable, but you need to go in stages, of course. >> And they've got to do that integration. >> Yes. >> They do. >> And Yousef made a great point. Like, out of the top 30 largest Telcos by CapEx outside of China, three quarters of them have virtualized their core. So the cloudification, if you will, software definition run on industry standard hardware, embraced cloud native principles, containerized apps, that's happened in the core. It's well accepted. Now it's just a ripple-down through the network which will happen as and when things are faster, better, cheaper. >> Right. >> So as implemented, what does this look like? Is it essentially what we used to loosely refer to as Azure stacked software, running with Dell optimized Telecom infrastructure together, sometimes within a BBU, out in a hybrid cloud model communicating back to Azure locations in some cases? Is that what we're looking at? >> Approximately. So you start with the near-edge, okay? So the near-edge lives in the operator's data centers, edges, whatever the case may be, built out of off the shelf hardware. Dell is our great partner there but in principle, it could be different mix and match. So once you have that true near-edge, then you can think of, "Okay, how can I make sure this environment is as uniform, same APIs, same everything, regardless what the physical location is?" And this is key, key for the network function providers and the NEPs because they need to be able to port once, run everywhere, and it's key for the operator to reduce their costs. You want to teach your workforce, your operations folks, if you will, how to manage this system one time, to automation and so forth. So, and that is actually an expansion of the Azure capabilities that people are familiar with in a public cloud, projected into different locations. And we have technology called Arc which basically models everything. >> Yeah, yeah. >> So if you have trained your IT side, you are halfway there, how to manage your new network. Even though of course the network is carrier graded, there's different gear. So yes, what you said, a lot of it is true but the actual components, whatever they might be running, are carrier grade, highly optimized, the next images and our solution is not a DIY solution, okay? I know you cater to a wide spectrum here but for us, we don't believe in the TCO. The proper TCO can be achieved by just putting stuff by yourself. We just published a report with Analysys Mason that shows that our approach will save 36 percent of the cost compared to a DIY approach. >> Dave: What percent? >> 36 percent. >> Dave: Of the cost? >> Of, compared to DIY, which is already cheaper than classical models. >> And there's a long history of fairly failed DIY, right, >> Yeah. >> That preceded this. As in the early days of public cloud, the network operators wrestled with, "Do I have to become one to survive?" >> Dave: Yeah. Right. >> So they all ended up having cloud projects and by and large, they've all dematerialized in favor of this. >> Yeah, and it's hard for them to really invest at scale. Let me give you an example. So, your biggest tier one operator, without naming anybody, okay, how many developers do they have that can build and maintain an OS image, or can keep track of container technology, or build monitoring at scale? In our company, we have literally thousands of developers doing it already for the cloud and all we're doing for the operator segment is customizing it and focusing it at the carrier grade aspects of it. But so, I don't have half a dozen exterior experts. I literally have a building of developers who can do that and I'm being literal, here. So it's a scale thing. Once you have a product that you can give to multiple people, everybody benefits. >> Dave: Yeah, and the carriers are largely, they're equipment engineers in a large setting. >> Oh, they have a tough job. I always have total respect what they do. >> Oh totally, and a lot of the work happens, you know, kind of underground and here they are. >> They are network operators. >> They don't touch. >> It's their business. >> Right, absolutely, and they're good at it. They're really good at it. That's right. You know, you think about it, we love to, you know, poke fun at the big carriers, but think about what happened during the pandemic. When they had us shift everything to remote work, >> Dennis: Yes. >> Landline traffic went through the roof. You didn't even notice. >> Yep. That's very true. >> I mean, that's the example. >> That's very true. >> However, in the future where there's innovation and it's going to be driven by developers, right, that's where the open ecosystem comes in. >> Yousef: Indeed. >> And that's the hard transition for a lot of these folks because the developers are going to win that with new workloads, new applications that we can't even think of. >> Dennis: Right. And a lot of it is because if you look at it, there's the fundamental back strategy hat back on, fundamental dynamics of the industry, forced investment, flat revenues. >> Dave: Yeah. Right. >> Very true. >> Right? Every few years, a new G comes out. "Man, I got to retool this massive thing and where I can't do towers, I'm dropping fiber or vice a versa." And meanwhile, most diversification efforts into media have failed. They've had to unwind them and resell them. There's a lot of debt in the industry. >> Yousef: Yeah. >> Dennis: And so, they're looking for that next big, adjacent revenue stream and increasingly deciding, "If I don't modernize my network, I can't get it." >> Can't do it. >> Right, and again, what I heard from some of the carriers in the keynote was, "We're going to charge for API access 'cause we have data in the network." Okay, but I feel like there's a lot more innovation beyond that that's going to come from the disruptors. >> Dennis: Oh yeah. >> Yousef: Yes. >> You know, that's going to blow that away, right? And then that may not be the right model. We'll see, you know? I mean, what would Microsoft do? They would say, "Here, here's a platform. Go develop." >> No, I'll tell you. We are actually working with CAMARA and GSMA on the whole API layer. We actually announced a service as well as (indistinct). >> Dave: Yeah, yeah, right. >> And the key there, frankly, in my opinion, are not the disruptors as in operators. It's the ISV community. You want to get developers that can write to a global set of APIs, not per Telco APIs, such that they can do the innovation. I mean, this is what we've seen in other industries, >> Absolutely. >> That I critically can think of. >> This is the way they get a slice of that pie, right? The recent history of this industry is one where 4G LTE begot the smartphone and app store era, a bevy of consumer services, and almost every single profit stream went somewhere other than the operator, right? >> Yousef: Someone else. So they're looking at this saying, "Okay, 5G is the enterprise G and there's going to be a bevy of applications that are business service related, based on 5G capability and I can't let the OTT, over the top, thing happen again." >> Right. >> They'll say that. "We cannot let this happen." >> "We can't let this happen again." >> Okay, but how do they, >> Yeah, how do they make that not happen? >> Not let it happen again? >> Eight APIs, Dave. The answer is eight APIs. No, I mean, it's this approach. They need to make it easy to work with people like Yousef and more importantly, the developer community that people like Yousef and his company have found a way to harness. And by the way, they need to be part of that developer community themselves. >> And they're not, today. They're not speaking that developer language. >> Right. >> It's hard. You know, hey. >> Dennis: Hey, what's the fastest way to sell an enterprise, a business service? Resell Azure, Teams, something, right? But that's a resale. >> Yeah, that's a resale thing. >> See, >> That's not their service. >> They also need to free their resources from all the plumbing they do and leave it to us. We are plumbers, okay? >> Dennis: We are proud plumbers. >> We are proud plumbers. I'm a plumber. I keep telling people this thing. We had the same discussion with banks and enterprises 10 years ago, by the way. Don't do the plumbing. Go add value on the top. Retool your workforce to do applications and work with ISVs to the verticals, as opposed to either reselling, which many do, or do the plumbing. You'd be surprised. Traditionally, many operators do around, "I want to plumb this thing to get this small interrupt per second." Like, who cares? >> Well, 'cause they made money on connectivity. >> Yes. >> And we've seen this before. >> And in a world without telephone poles and your cables- >> Hey, if what you have is a hammer, everything's a nail, right? And we sell connectivity services and that's what we know how to do, and that both build and sell. And if that's no longer driving a revenue stream sufficient to cover this forced investment march, not to mention Huawei rip and government initiatives to pull infrastructure out and accelerate investment, they got to find new ways. >> I mean, the regulations have been tough, right? They don't go forward and ask for permission. They really can't, right? They have to be much more careful. >> Dennis: It is tough. >> So, we don't mean to sound like it's easy for these guys. >> Dennis: No, it's not. >> But it does require a new mindset, new skillsets, and I think some of 'em are going to figure it out and then pff, the wave, and you guys are going to be riding that wave. >> We're going to try. >> Definitely. Definitely. >> As a veteran of working with both Dell and Microsoft, specifically Azure on things, I am struck by how you're very well positioned in this with Microsoft in particular. Because of Azure's history, coming out of the on-premises world that Microsoft knows so well, there's a natural affinity to the hybrid nature of Telecom. We talk about edge, we talk about hybrid, this is it, absolutely the center of it. So it seems like a- >> Yousef: Indeed. Actually, if you look at the history of Azure, from day one, and I was there from day one, we always spoke of the hybrid model. >> Yeah. >> The third point, we came from the on-premises world. >> David: Right. >> And don't get me wrong, I want people to use the public cloud, but I also know due to physics, regulation, geopolitical boundaries, there's something called on-prem, something called an edge here. I want to add something else. Remember our deal on how we are partner-centric? We're applying the same playbook, here. So, you know, for every dollar we make, so many of it's been done by the ecosystem. Same applies here. So we have announced partnerships with Ericson, Nokia, (indistinct), all the names, and of course with Dell and many others. The ecosystem has to come together and customers must retain their optionality to drum up whatever they are on. So it's the same playbook, with this. >> And enterprise technology companies are, actually, really good at, you know, decoding the customer, figuring out specific requirements, making some mistakes the first time through and then eventually getting it right. And as these trends unfold, you know, you're in a good position, I think, as are others and it's an exciting time for enterprise tech in this industry, you know? >> It really is. >> Indeed. >> Dave: Guys, thanks so much for coming on. >> Thank you. >> Dave: It's great to see you. Have a great rest of the show. >> Thank you. >> Thanks, Dave. Thank you, Dave. >> All right, keep it right there. John Furrier is live in our studio. He's breaking down all the news. Go to siliconangle.com to go to theCUBE.net. Dave Vellante, David Nicholson and Lisa Martin, we'll be right back from the theater in Barcelona, MWC 23 right after this short break. (relaxing music)

>>Welcome to this Q conversation. I'm Dave Nicholson. And today we are joined by Andrew ish and Chris Y Moran, both from Gentech. Andrew is the vice president of marketing. Chris John is the, uh, vice president of product engineering, gentlemen, welcome to the cube. >>Welcome David. Thanks for having us. Hey, >>David, thanks for having us on your show. >>Absolutely. Give us just, let's start out by, uh, giving us some background on, on Gentech. How would you describe to a relative coming over and asking you what you do for a living? What Genotech does? >>Well, I'll take a shot at that. I'm the marketing guy, David, but, uh, I think the best way to think of Genotech first and foremost is a software company. We, uh, we do a really good job of bringing together all of that physical security sensor network onto a platform. So people can make sense out of the data that comes from video surveillance, cameras, access control, reads, license plate recognition, cameras, and from a whole host of different sensors that can live out there in the world. Temperature, sensors, microwaves, all sorts of stuff. So we're a company that's really good at making sense of complex data from sensors. That's kind of, I think that's kind of what we >>Do and, and, and we focus specifically on like larger, complex, critical infrastructure type projects, whether they be airports, uh, large enterprise campuses and whatnot. So we're not necessarily your well known consumer type brand. >>So you mentioned physical, you mentioned physical security. Um, what about the intersection between physical security and, and cyber security who are, who are the folks that you work with directly as customers and where do they, where do they sit in that spectrum of cyber versus physical? >>So we predominantly work with physical security professionals and, uh, they typically are responsible for the security of a facility, a campus, a certain area. And we'll talk about security cameras. We'll talk about access control devices with card readers and, and, and locks, uh, intrusion detection, systems, fences, and whatnot. So anything that you would see that physically protects a facility. And, uh, what's actually quite interesting is that, you know, cybersecurity, we, we hear about cybersecurity and depressed all the time, right. And who's been hacked this week is typically like, uh, a headline that we're all like looking at, uh, we're looking for in the news. Um, so we actually do quite a lot of, I would say education work with the physical security professional as it pertains to the importance of cyber security in the physical security system, which in and of itself is an information system. Right. Um, so you don't wanna put a system in place to protect your facility that is full of cybersecurity holes because at that point, you know, your physical security systems becomes, uh, your weakest link in your security chain. Uh, the way I like to say it is, you know, there's no such thing as physical security versus cyber security, it's just security. Uh, really just the concept or a context of what threat vectors does this specific control or mechanism actually protects against >>Those seem to be words to live by, but are, are they aspirational? I mean, do you, do you see gaps today, uh, between the worlds of cyber and physical security? >>I mean, for sure, right? Like we, physical security evolved from a different part of the enterprise, uh, structure then did it or cyber security. So they, they come at things from a different angle. Um, so, you know, for a long time, the two worlds didn't really meet. Uh, but now what we're seeing, I would say in the last 10 years, Christian, about that, there's a huge convergence of cyber security with physical security. It, so information technology with operation technology really coming together quite tightly in the industry. And I think leading companies and sophisticated CISOs are really giving a big pitcher thought to what's going on across the organization, not just in cybersecurity. >>Yeah. I think we've come a long way from CCTV, which stands for closed circuit television, uh, which was typically like literally separated from the rest of the organization, often managed by the facilities, uh, part of any organization. Uh, and now we're seeing more and more organizations where this is converging together, but there's still ways to go, uh, to get this proper convergence in place. But, you know, we're getting there. >>How, how does Gentech approach its addressable market? Is this, is this a direct model? Uh, do you work with partners? What, what does that look like in your world? >>Well, we're a, we're a partner led company Gentech, you know, model on many friends is all about our partners. So we go to market through our integration channel. So we work with really great integrators all around the world. Um, and they bring together our software platform, which is usually forms the nucleus of sort of any O T security network. Uh, they bring that together with all sorts of other things, such as the sensor network, the cabling, all of that. It's a very complex multiplayer world. And also in that, you know, partnership ecosystem and Christian, this is more your world. We have to build deep integrations with all of these companies that build sensors, whether that's access, Bosch, Canon, uh, Hanoi, you know, we're, we're really working with them them. And of course with our storage and server partners >>Like Dell >>Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Yeah. So we have, we have like hundreds of, I would say ecosystem partners, right? Camera manufacturers, uh, access control reader, controller manufacturers, intrusion detection, manufacturers, late LIDAR radar, you know, the list goes on and on and on. And, and basically we bring this all together. The system integrator really is going to pick best of breed based on a specific end customer's I would say requirements and then roll out the system. According >>That's very interesting, you know, at, at Silicon angle on the cube, um, we've initiated coverage of this subject of the question, does hardware still matter? And, and you know, of course we're, we're approaching that primarily from kind of the traditional it, uh, perspective, but you said at the outset, you you're a software company mm-hmm <affirmative>, but clearly correct me if I'm wrong, your software depends upon all of these hardware components and as they improve, I imagine you can do things that maybe you couldn't do before those improvements. The first thing that comes to mind is just camera resolution. Um, you know, sort of default today is 4k, uh, go back five years, 10 years. I imagine that some of the sophisticated things that you can do today weren't possible because the hardware was lagging. Is that, is that a, is that a fair assessment? >>Oh, that's a fair assessment. Just going back 20 years ago. Uh, just VGA resolution on a security camera was like out of this world resolution, uh, even more so if it was like full motion, 30 images per second. So you typically have like, probably even like three 20 by 2 44 images per second, like really lousy resolution, just from a resolution perspective, the, the imagery sensors have, have really increased in terms of what they can provide, but even more so is the horsepower of these devices. Mm-hmm, <affirmative> now it's not uncommon to have, uh, pretty, pretty powerful Silicon in those devices now that can actually run machine learning models and you can actually do computer vision and analytics straight into the device. Uh, as you know, in some of the initial years, you would actually run this on kind of racks of servers in this data center. >>Now you can actually distribute those workloads across on the edge. And what we're seeing is, you know, the power that the edge provides is us as a software company, we have the opportunity to actually bring our workloads where it makes most sense. And in some cases we'll actually also have a ground station kind of in between the sensors and potentially the cloud, uh, because the use case just, uh, calls for it. Uh, just looking from a, from a, from a video security perspective, you know, when you have hundreds or thousands of cameras on an airport, it's just not economical or not even feasible in some cases to bring all that footage to the cloud even more so when 99% of that footage is never watched by anybody. So what's the point. Uh, so you just wanna provide the clips that, that actually do matter to the cloud and for longer term retention, you also want to be able to have sometimes more resilient systems, right? So what happens if the cloud disconnects, you can stop the operations of that airport or stop that operations of that, of that prison, right? It needs to continue to operate and therefore you need higher levels of resiliency. So you do need that hardware. So it's really a question of what it calls for and having the right size type of hardware so that you don't overly complexify the installation, uh, and, and actually get the job done. Are >>You comparing airports to prisons >>Christian? Well, nowadays they're pretty much prepared <laugh>, >>But I mean, this is exactly it, David, but I mean, this payload, especially from the video surveillance, like the, the workload that's going through to the, these ground stations really demands flexible deployment, right? So like we think about it as edge to cloud and, uh, you know, that's, what's really getting us excited because it, it gives so much more flexibility to the, you know, the C I S O and security professionals in places like prisons, airports, also large scale retail and banking, and, uh, other places, >>Universities, the list goes on and on and on, and >>On the flexibility of deployment just becomes so much easier because these are lightweight, you usually word deploying on a Linux box and it can connect seamlessly with like large scale head end storage or directly to, uh, cloud providers. It's, it's really a sophisticated new way of looking at how you architect out these networks. >>You've just given, you've just given a textbook example of why, uh, folks in the it world have been talking about hybrid cloud for, for, for such a long time, and some have scoffed at the idea, but you just, you just present a perfect use case for that combination of leveraging cloud with, uh, on-premises hardware and tracking with hardware advances, um, uh, on, on the subject of camera resolution. I don't know if you've seen this meme, but there's a great one with the, the first deep field image from the, from the, I was gonna say humble, the James web space telescope, uh, in contrast with a security camera F photo, which is really blurry of someone in your driveway <laugh>, uh, which is, which is, uh, sort of funny. The reality though, is I've seen some of these latest generation security cameras, uh, you know, beyond 4k resolution. And it's amazing just, you know, the kind of detail that you can get into, but talk about what what's, what's exciting in your world. What's, what's Gentech doing, you know, over the next, uh, several quarters that's, uh, particularly interesting what's on the leading edge of your, of your world. >>Well, I think right now what's on the leading edges is being driven by our end users. So the, so the, the companies, the governments, the organizations that are implementing our software into these complex IOT networks, they wanna do more with that data, right? It's not just about, you know, monitoring surveillance. It's not just about opening and closing doors or reading license plates, but more and more we're seeing organizations taking this bigger picture view of the data that is generated in their organizations and how they can take value out of existing investments that they've made in sensor networks, uh, and to take greater insight into operations, whether that can be asset utilization, customer service efficiency, it becomes about way more than just, you know, either physical security or cyber security. It becomes really an enterprise shaping O T network. And to us, that is like a massive, massive opportunity, uh, in the, in the industry today. >>Yeah. >>Now you're you're you're oh, go ahead. I'm sorry, Christian, go ahead. Yeah, >>No, it's, it's, it's good. But, you know, going back to a comment that I mentioned earlier about how it was initially siloed and now, you know, we're kind of discovering this diamond in the rough, in terms of all these sensors that are out there, which a lot of organizations didn't even know existed or didn't even know they had. And how can you bring that on kind of across the organizations for non-security related applications? So that's kind of one very interesting kind of, uh, direction that we're, that we've been undergoing for the last few years, and then, you know, security, uh, and physical security for that matter often is kind of the bastard step child. Doesn't get all the budget and, you know, there's lots of opportunities for, to help them increase and improve their operations, uh, as, as Andrew pointed out and really help bringing them into the 21st century. >>Yeah. >>And you're, you're headquartered in Montreal, correct? >>Yes. >>Yeah. So, so the reason, the reason why that's interesting is because, um, and, you know, correct me if I'm, if I'm off base here, but, but you're sort of the bridge between north America and Europe. Uh, and, and, uh, and so you sit at that nexus where, uh, you probably have more of an awareness of, uh, trends in security, which overlap with issues of privacy. Yeah. Where Europe has led in a lot of cases. Um, some of those European like rules are coming to north America. Um, is there anything in your world that is particularly relevant or that concerns you about north America catching up, um, or, or do those worlds of privacy and security not overlap as much as I might think they do? >>Ah, thank you. Any >>Thoughts? >>Absolutely not. No, no. <laugh> joking aside. This is, this is, this is, >>Leave me hanging >><laugh>, uh, this is actually core to our DNA. And, and, and we, we often say out loud how, like Europe has really paved the way for a different way, uh, of, of looking at privacy from a security setting, right. And they're not mutually exclusive. Right. You can have high security all while protecting people's privacy. And it's all of a question of ensuring that, you know, how you kind of, I would say, uh, ethically, uh, use said technology and we can actually put some safeguards in it. So to minimize the likelihood of there being abuse, right? There's, there's something that we do, which we call the privacy protector, which, you know, for all intents and purposes, it's not that complex of an idea. It's, it's really the concept of you have security cameras in a public space or a more sensitive location. And you have your security guards that can actually watch that footage when nothing really happens. >>You, you want to protect people's privacy in these situations. Uh, however, you still want to be able to provide a view to the security guard so they can still make out that, you know, there there's actually people walking around or there's a fight that broke out. And in the likelihood that something did happen, then you can actually view the overall footage. So, and with, with the details that the cameras that you had, you know, the super high mega pixel cameras that you have will provide. So we blur the images of the individuals. We still keep the background. And once you have the proper authorization, and this is based on the governance of the organization, so it can be a four I principle where it could be the chief security officer with the chief privacy officer need to authorize this footage to be kind of UN blurred. And at that point you can UN blur the footage and provide it to law enforcement for the investigation, for example. >>Excellent. I've got Andrew, if you wanted, then I, then I'm. Well, so I, I've a, I have a final question for you. And this comes out of a game that, uh, some friends and I, some friends of mine and I devised over the years, primarily this is played with strangers that you meet on airplanes as you're traveling. But the question you ask is in your career, what you're doing now and over the course of your careers, um, what's the most shocking thing <laugh> that people would learn from what, you know, what do you, what do you find? What's the craziest thing. When you go in to look at these environments that you see that people should maybe address, um, well, go ahead and start with you, Andrew. >>I, >>The most shocking thing you see every day in your world, >>It's very interesting. The most shocking thing I think we've seen in the industry is how willing, uh, some professionals are in our industry to install any kind of device on their networks without actually taking the time to do due diligence on what kind of security risks these devices can have on a network. Because I think a lot of people don't think about a security camera as first and foremost, a computer, and it's a computer with an IP address on a network, and it has a visual sensor, but we always get pulled in by that visual sensor. Right. And it's like, oh, it's a camera. No, it's a computer. And, you know, over the last, I would say eight years in the industry, we've spent a lot of time trying to sensitize the industry to the fact that, you know, you can't just put devices on your, your network without understanding the supply chain, without understanding the motives behind who's put these together and their track record of cybersecurity. So probably the weirdest thing that I've seen in my, um, you know, career in this industry is just the willingness of people not to take time to do due diligence before they hook something up on onto their corporate network where, you know, data can start leaking out, being exfiltrated by those devices and malevolent actors behind them. So gotta ask questions about what you put on your network. >>Christian, did he steal your, did he steal your thunder? Do you have any other, any other thoughts? >>Well, so first of all, there's things I just cannot say on TV. Okay. But you can't OK. >>You can't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Saying that you're shocked that not everyone speaks French doesn't count. Okay. Let's just get, let's get past that, but, but go, but yeah, go ahead. Any thoughts? >>So, uh, you know, I, I would say something that I I've seen a lot and, and specifically with customers sometimes that were starting to shop for a new system is you'd be surprised by first of all, there's a camera, the likelihood of actually somebody watching it live while you're actually in the field of view of that camera is close to Neil first and foremost, second, there's also a good likelihood that that camera doesn't even record. It actually is not even functional. And, and I would say a lot of organizations often realize that, you know, that camera was not functioning when they actually knew do need to get the footage. And we've seen this with some large incidents, uh, very, uh, bad incidents that happened, uh, whether in the UK or in Boston or whatnot, uh, when they're, when law enforcement is trying to get footage and they realize that a lot of cameras actually weren't recording and, and, and goes back to Andrew's point in terms of the selection process of these devices. >>Yeah. Image resolution is important, like, because you need an, an image that it actually usable so that you can actually do something with it forensically, but you know, these cameras need to be recorded by a reliable system and, and should something happen with the device. And there's always going to be something, you know, power, uh, uh, a bird ate the lens. I don't know what it might be, or squirrel ate the wire. Um, and the camera doesn't work anymore. So you have to replace it. So having a system that provides, you know, you with like health insights in terms of, of, of if it's working or not is, is actually quite important. It needs to be managed like any it environment, right? Yeah. You have all these devices and if one of them goes down, you need to manage it. And most organizations it's fire and forget, I sign a purchase order. I bought my security system, I installed it. It's done. We move on to the next one and seven years later, something bad happens. And like, uhoh, >>It's not a CCTV system. It's a network. Yeah. Life cycle management counts. >>Well, uh, I have to say on that, uh, I'm gonna be doing some research on Canadian birds and squirrels. I, I had no idea, >>Very hungry. >>Andrew, Chris, John, thank you so much. Great conversation, uh, from all of us here at the cube. Thanks for tuning in. Stay tuned. The cube from Silicon angle media, we are your leader in tech coverage.

[Music] welcome everyone to thecube's presentation of the aws startup showcase data as code this is season two episode two of our ongoing series covering exciting startups in the aws ecosystem to talk about data and analytics i'm your host lisa martin i have a cube alumni here with me socket sarah the ceo and founder of nexla he's here to talk about a future of automated data engineering socket welcome back great to see you lisa thank you for having me pleasure to be here again let's dig into nexla's mission ready to use data in the hands of every user what does that mean that means that you know every organization what what are they trying to do with data they want to make use of data they want to make decisions from data they want to make data a part of their business right the challenge is that every function in an organization today needs to leverage data whether it is finance whether it is hr whether it is marketing sales or product the problem for companies is that for each of these users into each of these teams the data is not ready for them to use as it is there is a lot that goes on before the data can be in their hands and it's in the tools that they like to work with and that's where a lot of data engineering happens today i would say that is by far one of the biggest bottlenecks today for companies in accelerating their business and being you know truly data-driven so talk to me about what makes nexla unique when you're in customer conversations as every company these days in every industry has to be a data company what do you tell them about what differentiates you yeah one of the biggest challenges out there is that the variety of data that companies work with is growing tremendously you know every sas application you use becomes a data source every type of database every type of user event anything can be a source of data now it is a tremendous engineering challenge for companies to make the data usable and the biggest challenge there is people companies just cannot have enough people to write that code to make the data engineering happen and where we come in with a very unique value is how to start thinking about making this whole process much faster much more automated at the end of the day lisa time to value and time to results is by far the number one thing on top of mind for customers time to value is critical we're all thin on patients these days whether we're in our consumerizer our business lives but being able to get access to data to make intelligent decisions whether it's on something that you're going to buy or a product or service you're going to deliver is really critical give me a snapshot of some of the users of nexla yeah the users of nexla are actually across different industries one of the main one of the interesting things is that the data challenges whether you are in financial services whether you are in retail e-commerce whether you are in healthcare they are very similar is basically getting connected to all these data systems and having the data now what people do with the data is very specific to their industry so for example within the e-commerce world or retail world itself you know companies from the likes of bed bath beyond and forever 21 and poshmark which are retailers or e-commerce companies they use nexla today to bring a lot of data in uh so do delivery companies like dodash and instacart and you know so do for example logistics providers like you know narwhal or customer loyalty and customer data companies like yacht pro so across the board for example just in retail we cover a whole bunch of companies got it now let's dig into you're here to talk about the future of automated data engineering talk to me about data engineering what is it let's define it and crack it open yeah um data engineering is i would say by far one of the hottest areas of work today the one of the hardest people to hire if you're looking for one data engineering is basically um all the code you know the process and the people that is basically connecting to their system so just to give a very practical example right for um for somebody in e-commerce let's say a take-off case of door dash right it's extremely important for them to have data as to which stores have what products what is available is this something they can list for people to go and buy is this something that they can therefore deliver right this is data that changes all the time now imagine them getting data from hundreds of different merchants across the board so it is the task of data engineering to then consume that data from all these different places different formats different apis different systems and then somehow unify all the data so that it can be used by the applications that they are building so data engineering in this case becomes taking data from different places and making it useful again back to what i was talking about ready to use data it is a lot of code it's a lot of people not just that it is something that runs every single day so it means it has monitoring it has reliability um it has performance it has every aspect of engineering as we know going into it you mentioned it's a hot topic which it is but it's also really challenging to accomplish how does nexla help enable that yeah data engineering is quite interesting in that one it is difficult to implement you know the the necessary sort of pieces but it is also very repetitive at some level right i mean when you connect to say 10 systems and get data from them you know that's not the end of it you have 10 more and 10 more and 10 more and then at some point you have thousands of such you know data connectivity and data flows happening it's hard to maintain them right as well so the way nexla gets into the whole picture is looking at what can we understand about data what can we observe about the data systems what can be done from that and then start to automate certain pieces of data engineering so that we are helping those teams just accelerate a lot faster and it i would say comes down to more people being able to do these tasks rather than only very very specialized people more people being able to do the tasks more users kind of democratization of data really there can you talk to us in more detail about how naxa is automating data engineering yeah i think um you know i think this is best shared through a visual so let me walk you through that a little bit as to how we automated engineering right so if we think about data engineering three of the most core components are many parts to it but three of the most core components of that are integrating with data systems preparing and transforming data and then monitoring that right so automating data engineering happens in you know three different ways first of all connecting connecting to data is is basically about the gateway to data the ability to read and write data from different systems this is where the data journey starts but it is extremely complex because people have to write code to connect to different systems one part that we have automated is generating these connectors so that you don't have to write code for that also making them bi-directional is extremely valuable because now you can read and write from any system the second part is that the gateway the connector has read the data but how do you represent it to the user so anybody can understand it and that's where the concept of data product comes in so we also look at auto generating data products these become the common language and entity that people can understand and work with and then the third part is taking all this automation and bringing the human in the loop no automation is perfect and therefore bringing the human in the loop means that somebody who is an expert in data who can look at it and understand it can now do things which only data systems experts were able to do before so bringing in that user of data directly into the into the picture is one important part but let's not forget data challenges are very diverse and very complex so the same system also becomes accessible to the engineers who are experts in that and now both of these can work together while an engineer will come through apis and sdk and command interfaces a data user comes in through a nice no code user interface and all of these things coming together are what is accelerating back to that time to value that really everybody cares about so if i'm in marketing and i'm a data user i'm able to have a collaborative workflow with the data engineer yeah yeah for the first time that is actually possible and everybody's focuses on their expertise and their know-how so you know um somebody who for example in financial services really understands portfolio and transactions and different type of asset classes they have the data in front of them the engineers who understand the underlying real-time data feeds and those they are still involved in the loop but now they are not doing that back and forth you know as the user of data i'm not going to the engineer saying hey can you do this for me can you get the data here and that back and forth is not only time taking it's frustrating and the number one hold back right yeah that and that's time that nobody has to waste as we know for many reasons talk to me about when you look into your crystal ball which i'm sure you have one what is the future of of data engineering from nexus perspective you talked about the automation what's the future hold i think the future of data engineering becomes that we up level this at a point where um companies don't have to be slowed down for it um i think a lot of tooling is already happening the way to think about this is that here in 2022 if we think that our data challenges are you know like x they will be a thousand x in five years right i mean this complexity is just increasing very rapidly so we think that this becomes one of those fundamental layers you know and you know as i was saying maybe the last time this is like the road you know you don't feel it you just move on it you do your job you build your products deliver your services as a company this just works for you um and that's where i think the future is and that's where i think the future should be we all need to work towards that we're not there yet not there yet a lot of a lot of potential a lot of opportunity and a lot of momentum speaking of momentum i want to talk about data mesh that is a topic of a lot of excitement a lot of discussion let's unpack that yeah i think uh you know the idea that data should be democratized that people should get access to the data and it's all coming back to that sort of basic concept of scale companies can scale only when more people can do the relevant jobs without depending on each other right so the idea of data democratization has been there for a long time but you know recently in the last couple of years the concept of data mesh was introduced by zamak digani and thoughtworks and that has really caught the attention of people and the imagination of leadership as well the idea that data should be available as a product you know that democratization can happen what is the entity of the democratization that's data presented as a product that people can use and collaborate is extremely powerful um i think a lot of companies are gravitating towards that and that's why it's exciting this is promising a future that is you know possible so second speaking of data products we talked a little bit about this last time but can you really help us understand see smell touch feel what a data product is and give us that context yeah absolutely i think uh best to orient ourselves with the general thinking of how we consider something as a product right a product is something that we find ready to use for example this table that i'm using right now made out of raw materials wood metal screws somebody designed it somebody produced it and i'm using it right now when we think about data products we think about data as the raw material so for example a spreadsheet an api a database query those are the raw raw materials what is a data product is something that further enriches and enhances that entity to be much more usable ready to use right um let me illustrate that with a little bit of a visual actually and that might help okay um the idea of the data product and this is how a data product looks like in next lab for a user to write as you see the concept of a data product is something that first of all it's a logical entity this simply means that it's not a new copy of data just like containers or logical compute units you know these data products are logical entities but they represent data in the same consistent fashion regardless of where the data comes from what format it is in they provide the user the idea of what the structure of data is what the sample data looks like what the characteristics of data are it allows people to have some documentation around it what does the data mean what do these attributes you know mean and how to interpret them how to validate that data something that users often know in an industry how is my data looking like well this value can never be negative because it's a price for example right um then the ability to take these data products that you know we automate by generating as i was mentioning earlier automatically creating these data products taking these data products to create new data products now that's something that's very unique about data you could take data off about an order for a from a company and say well the order data has an order id and a user id but i need to look up shipping address so i can combine user and order data to get that information in one place so you know creating new data products giving people access hey i've designed a data product i think you'll find it useful you can go use that as it is you don't have to go from scratch so all of those things together make a data product something that people can find ready to use again and this is this is also usable by the again that example where i'm in marketing uh or i'm in sales this is available to me as a general user as a general user in the tool of your choice so you can say oh no i am most familiar with using data in a spreadsheet i would like it there or i prefer my data in a tableau or a looker to visualize it and you can have it there so these data products give multiple interfaces for the end user to make use of it got it i like it you're meeting the user where they are with relevant data that helps them understand so much more contextually i'm curious when you're in customer conversations customers that come to you saying saka we need to build the data mesh how is nexl relevant they're how what is your conversation like yeah when people want to build a data mesh they're really looking for how their organization will scale into the future uh there are multiple components to building a data mesh there's a tooling part of it the technology portion there are people and processes right i mean unless you train people in certain processes and say hey when you build a data product you know make sure you have taken care of privacy or compliance to certain rules or who do you give access to is something you have to follow some rules about so we provide the technology component of it and then the people and process is something that companies you know then as they adopt and do that right so the concept of data product becomes core to building the data mesh having governance on it uh having all this be self-serve it's an essential part of that so that's where we come into the picture as a as a technology component to the whole story and working to deliver on that mission to getting data in the hands of every user you mentioned i want to dig into in the last few minutes here that we have uh the target audience you mentioned a few by name big names customers that nexla has you i heard retail i heard e-commerce i think i heard logistics but talk to me about the target customer for nexla any verticals in particular or any company's sizes in particular as well yeah you know the one of the top three banks in the country is a big user of nexla as part of their data stack uh we actually sit as part of their enterprise-wide ai platform providing data to their data scientists um we're not allowed to share their name unfortunately but um you know there are multiple other companies in asset management area for example they work with a lot of data in markets portfolio and so on um the leading medical devices companies using nexla data scientists there are using data coming in real time or streaming for medical devices to train and um and combine that with other data to do sort of clinical trial related research that they do um we have you know the companies for example linkedin is an excellent customer linkedin is by far the largest social network um their marketing team leverages nexla to bring data from different type of systems together as well um you know so are companies in education space like nerdy is a public company that uses nexla for you know student enrollment education data as they collaborate with school districts for example um you know there are companies across the board in marketing live brand you know for example uses nexla so we are um we are you know from who uses nexla is today mostly mid to large to very large enterprises today leverage nexla as a very critical component and often mission critical data for which they leverage us do you see that changing anytime soon as every company these days has to be a data company we expect that as consumers whether it's my grocery store um or my local coffee shop that they've got to use data to deliver me that personalized experience do you see the target audience kind of shifting down to more into mid-market smb space for next level oh yeah absolutely look we started the journey of the company with the thinking that the most complex data challenges exist in the large enterprise and if we can make it no code self-serve easy to use for them we can bring the same high-end technology to everybody and this is exactly why we recently launched in the amazon marketplace so anybody can go there get access to nexla and start to use it and you will see more and more of that happen where we will be bringing even some free versions of our product available so you're absolutely right every company needs to leverage data and i think people are getting much better at it you know especially in the last couple of years i've seen that teams have become much more sophisticated yes even if you are a coffee shop and you're running campaigns you know getting people yelp reviews and so on this data that you can use and understand better your demographic your customer and run your business better so one day yes we will absolutely be in the hands of every single person here a lot more opportunity to delight a lot more consumers and customers socket thank you so much for joining me on the program during the startup showcase you did a great job of helping us understand the future of automated data engineering we appreciate your insights thank you so much lisa it's a pleasure talking to you likewise for soccer sarah i'm lisa martin you're watching thecube's coverage of the aws startup showcase season two episode two stick around more great content coming up from the cube the leader in hybrid tech event coverage [Music]

>> The introduction of the modern public cloud in the mid 2000s, permanently changed the way we think about IT. At the heart of it, the cloud operating model attacked one of the biggest problems in enterprise infrastructure, human labor costs. More than half of IT budgets were spent on people, and much of that effort added little or no differentiable value to the business. The automation of provisioning, management, recovery, optimization, and decommissioning infrastructure resources has gone mainstream as organizations demand a cloud-like model across all their application infrastructure, irrespective of its physical location. This has not only cut cost, but it's also improved quality and reduced human error. Hello everyone, my name is Dave Vellante and welcome to Simplifying Hybrid Cloud, made possible by Cisco. Today, we're going to explore Hybrid Cloud as an operating model for organizations. Now the definite of cloud is expanding. Cloud is no longer an abstract set of remote services, you know, somewhere out in the clouds. No, it's an operating model that spans public cloud, on-premises infrastructure, and it's also moving to edge locations. This trend is happening at massive scale. While at the same time, preserving granular control of resources. It's an entirely new game where IT managers must think differently to deal with this complexity. And the environment is constantly changing. The growth and diversity of applications continues. And now, we're living in a world where the workforce is remote. Hybrid work is now a permanent state and will be the dominant model. In fact, a recent survey of CIOs by Enterprise Technology Research, ETR, indicates that organizations expect 36% of their workers will be operating in a hybrid mode. Splitting time between remote work and in office environments. This puts added pressure on the application infrastructure required to support these workers. The underlying technology must be more dynamic and adaptable to accommodate constant change. So the challenge for IT managers is ensuring that modern applications can be run with a cloud-like experience that spans on-prem, public cloud, and edge locations. This is the future of IT. Now today, we have three segments where we're going to dig into these issues and trends surrounding Hybrid Cloud. First up, is DD Dasgupta, who will set the stage and share with us how Cisco is approaching this challenge. Next, we're going to hear from Manish Agarwal and Darren Williams, who will help us unpack HyperFlex which is Cisco's hyperconverged infrastructure offering. And finally, our third segment will drill into Unified Compute. More than a decade ago, Cisco pioneered the concept of bringing together compute with networking in a single offering. Cisco frankly, changed the legacy server market with UCS, Unified Compute System. The X-Series is Cisco's next generation architecture for the coming decade and we'll explore how it fits into the world of Hybrid Cloud, and its role in simplifying the complexity that we just discussed. So, thanks for being here. Let's go. (upbeat music playing) Okay, let's start things off. DD Dasgupta is back on theCUBE to talk about how we're going to simplify Hybrid Cloud complexity. DD welcome, good to see you again. >> Hey Dave, thanks for having me. Good to see you again. >> Yeah, our pleasure. Look, let's start with big picture. Talk about the trends you're seeing from your customers. >> Well, I think first off, every customer these days is a public cloud customer. They do have their on-premise data centers, but, every customer is looking to move workloads, new services, cloud native services from the public cloud. I think that's one of the big things that we're seeing. While that is happening, we're also seeing a pretty dramatic evolution of the application landscape itself. You've got, you know, bare metal applications, you always have virtualized applications, and then most modern applications are containerized, and, you know, managed by Kubernetes. So I think we're seeing a big change in, in the application landscape as well. And, probably, you know, triggered by the first two things that I mentioned, the execution venue of the applications, and then the applications themselves, it's triggering a change in the IT organizations in the development organizations and sort of not only how they work within their organizations, but how they work across all of these different organizations. So I think those are some of the big things that, that I hear about when I talk to customers. >> Well, so it's interesting. I often say Cisco kind of changed the game in server and compute when it developed the original UCS. And you remember there were organizational considerations back then bringing together the server team and the networking team and of course the storage team as well. And now you mentioned Kubernetes, that is a total game changer with regard to whole the application development process. So you have to think about a new strategy in that regard. So how have you evolved your strategy? What is your strategy to help customers simplify, accelerate their hybrid cloud journey in that context? >> No, I think you're right Dave, back to the origins of UCS and we, you know, why did a networking company build a server? Well, we just enabled with the best networking technologies so, would do compute better. And now, doing something similar on the software, actually the managing software for our hyperconvergence, for our, you know, Rack server, for our blade servers. And, you know, we've been on this journey for about four years. The software is called Intersight, and, you know, we started out with Intersight being just the element manager, the management software for Cisco's compute and hyperconverged devices. But then we've evolved it over the last few years because we believe that a customer shouldn't have to manage a separate piece of software, would do manage the hardware, the underlying hardware. And then a separate tool to connect it to a public cloud. And then a third tool to do optimization, workload optimization or performance optimization, or cost optimization. A fourth tool to now manage, you know, Kubernetes and like, not just in one cluster, one cloud, but multi-cluster, multi-cloud. They should not have to have a fifth tool that does, goes into observability anyway. I can go on and on, but you get the idea. We wanted to bring everything onto that same platform that manage their infrastructure. But it's also the platform that enables the simplicity of hybrid cloud operations, automation. It's the same platform on which you can use to manage the, the Kubernetes infrastructure, Kubernetes clusters, I mean, whether it's on-prem or in a cloud. So, overall that's the strategy. Bring it to a single platform, and a platform is a loaded word we'll get into that a little bit, you know, in this conversation, but, that's the overall strategy, simplify. >> Well, you know, you brought platform. I like to say platform beats products, but you know, there was a day, and you could still point to some examples today in the IT industry where, hey, another tool we can monetize that. And another one to solve a different problem, we can monetize that. And so, tell me more about how Intersight came about. You obviously sat back, you saw what your customers were going through, you said, "We can do better." So tell us the story there. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, look, it started with, you know, three or four guys in getting in a room and saying, "Look, we've had this, you know, management software, UCS manager, UCS director." And these are just the Cisco's management, you know, for our, softwares for our own platforms. And every company has their own flavor. We said, we took on this bold goal of like, we're not, when we rewrite this or we improve on this, we're not going to just write another piece of software. We're going to create a cloud service. Or we're going to create a SaaS offering. Because the same, the infrastructure built by us whether it's on networking or compute, or the cyber cloud software, how do our customers use it? Well, they use it to write and run their applications, their SaaS services, every customer, every customer, every company today is a software company. They live and die by how their applications work or don't. And so, we were like, "We want to eat our own dog food here," right? We want to deliver this as a SaaS offering. And so that's how it started, we've being on this journey for about four years, tens of thousands of customers. But it was a pretty big, bold ambition 'cause you know, the big change with SaaS as you're familiar Dave is, the job of now managing this piece of software, is not on the customer, it's on the vendor, right? This can never go down. We have a release every Thursday, new capabilities, and we've learned so much along the way, whether it's to announce scalability, reliability, working with, our own company's security organizations on what can or cannot be in a SaaS service. So again, it's been a wonderful journey, but, I wanted to point out, we are in some ways eating our own dog food 'cause we built a SaaS application that helps other companies deliver their SaaS applications. >> So Cisco, I look at Cisco's business model and I compare, of course compare it to other companies in the infrastructure business and, you're obviously a very profitable company, you're a large company, you're growing faster than most of the traditional competitors. And, so that means that you have more to invest. You, can afford things, like to you know, stock buybacks, and you can invest in R&D you don't have to make those hard trade offs that a lot of your competitors have to make, so-- >> You got to have a talk with my boss on the whole investment. >> Yeah, right. You'd never enough, right? Never enough. But in speaking of R&D and innovations that you're intro introducing, I'm specifically interested in, how are you dealing with innovations to help simplify hybrid cloud, the operations there, improve flexibility, and things around Cloud Native initiatives as well? >> Absolutely, absolutely. Well, look, I think, one of the fundamentals where we're kind of philosophically different from a lot of options that I see in the industry is, we don't need to build everything ourselves, we don't. I just need to create a damn good platform with really good platform services, whether it's, you know, around, searchability, whether it's around logging, whether it's around, you know, access control, multi-tenants. I need to create a really good platform, and make it open. I do not need to go on a shopping spree to buy 17 and 1/2 companies and then figure out how to stich it all together. 'Cause it's almost impossible. And if it's impossible for us as a vendor, it's three times more difficult for the customer who then has to consume it. So that was the philosophical difference and how we went about building Intersight. We've created a hardened platform that's always on, okay? And then you, then the magic starts happening. Then you get partners, whether it is, you know, infrastructure partners, like, you know, some of our storage partners like NetApp or PR, or you know, others, who want their conversion infrastructures also to be managed, or their other SaaS offerings and software vendors who have now become partners. Like we did not write Terraform, you know, but we partnered with Hashi and now, you know, Terraform service's available on the Intersight platform. We did not write all the algorithms for workload optimization between a public cloud and on-prem. We partner with a company called Turbonomic and so that's now an offering on the Intersight platform. So that's where we're philosophically different, in sort of, you know, how we have gone about this. And, it actually dovetails well into, some of the new things that I want to talk about today that we're announcing on the Intersight platform where we're actually announcing the ability to attach and be able to manage Kubernetes clusters which are not on-prem. They're actually on AWS, on Azure, soon coming on GC, on GKE as well. So it really doesn't matter. We're not telling a customer if you're comfortable building your applications and running Kubernetes clusters on, you know, in AWS or Azure, stay there. But in terms of monitoring, managing it, you can use Intersight, and since you're using it on-prem you can use that same piece of software to manage Kubernetes clusters in a public cloud. Or even manage DMS in a EC2 instance. So. >> Yeah so, the fact that you could, you mentioned Storage Pure, NetApp, so Intersight can manage that infrastructure. I remember the Hashi deal and I, it caught my attention. I mean, of course a lot of companies want to partner with Cisco 'cause you've got such a strong ecosystem, but I thought that was an interesting move, Turbonomic you mentioned. And now you're saying Kubernetes in the public cloud. So a lot different than it was 10 years ago. So my last question is, how do you see this hybrid cloud evolving? I mean, you had private cloud and you had public cloud, and it was kind of a tug of war there. We see these two worlds coming together. How will that evolve on for the next few years? >> Well, I think it's the evolution of the model and I, really look at Cloud, you know, 2.0 or 3.0, or depending on, you know, how you're keeping terms. But, I think one thing has become very clear again, we, we've be eating our own dog food, I mean, Intersight is a hybrid cloud SaaS application. So we've learned some of these lessons ourselves. One thing is for sure that the customers are looking for a consistent model, whether it's on the edge, on the COLO, public cloud, on-prem, no data center, it doesn't matter. They're looking for a consistent model for operations, for governance, for upgrades, for reliability. They're looking for a consistent operating model. What (indistinct) tells me I think there's going to be a rise of more custom clouds. It's still going to be hybrid, so applications will want to reside wherever it most makes most sense for them which is obviously data, 'cause you know, data is the most expensive thing. So it's going to be complicated with the data goes on the edge, will be on the edge, COLO, public cloud, doesn't matter. But, you're basically going to see more custom clouds, more industry specific clouds, you know, whether it's for finance, or transportation, or retail, industry specific, I think sovereignty is going to play a huge role, you know, today, if you look at the cloud provider there's a handful of, you know, American and Chinese companies, that leave the rest of the world out when it comes to making, you know, good digital citizens of their people and you know, whether it's data latency, data gravity, data sovereignty, I think that's going to play a huge role. Sovereignty's going to play a huge role. And the distributor cloud also called Edge, is going to be the next frontier. And so, that's where we are trying line up our strategy. And if I had to sum it up in one sentence, it's really, your cloud, your way. Every customer is on a different journey, they will have their choice of like workloads, data, you know, upgrade reliability concern. That's really what we are trying to enable for our customers. >> You know, I think I agree with you on that custom clouds. And I think what you're seeing is, you said every company is a software company. Every company is also becoming a cloud company. They're building their own abstraction layers, they're connecting their on-prem to their public cloud. They're doing that across clouds, and they're looking for companies like Cisco to do the hard work, and give me an infrastructure layer that I can build value on top of. 'Cause I'm going to take my financial services business to my cloud model, or my healthcare business. I don't want to mess around with, I'm not going to develop, you know, custom infrastructure like an Amazon does. I'm going to look to Cisco and your R&D to do that. Do you buy that? >> Absolutely. I think again, it goes back to what I was talking about with platform. You got to give the world a solid open, flexible platform. And flexible in terms of the technology, flexible in how they want to consume it. Some of our customers are fine with the SaaS, you know, software. But if I talk to, you know, my friends in the federal team, no, that does not work. And so, how they want to consume it, they want to, you know, (indistinct) you know, sovereignty we talked about. So, I think, you know, job for an infrastructure vendor like ourselves is to give the world a open platform, give them the knobs, give them the right API tool kit. But the last thing I will mention is, you know, there's still a place for innovation in hardware. And I think some of my colleagues are going to get into some of those, you know, details, whether it's on our X-Series, you know, platform or HyperFlex, but it's really, it's going to be software defined, it's a SaaS service and then, you know, give the world an open rock solid platform. >> Got to run on something All right, Thanks DD, always a pleasure to have you on the, theCUBE, great to see you. >> Thanks for having me. >> You're welcome. In a moment, I'll be back to dig into hyperconverged, and where HyperFlex fits, and how it may even help with addressing some of the supply chain challenges that we're seeing in the market today. >> It used to be all your infrastructure was managed here. But things got more complex in distributing, and now IT operations need to be managed everywhere. But what if you could manage everywhere from somewhere? One scalable place that brings together your teams, technology, and operations. Both on-prem and in the cloud. One automated place that provides full stack visibility to help you optimize performance and stay ahead of problems. One secure place where everyone can work better, faster, and seamlessly together. That's the Cisco Intersight cloud operations platform. The time saving, cost reducing, risk managing solution for your whole IT environment, now and into the future of this ever-changing world of IT. (upbeat music) >> With me now are Manish Agarwal, senior director of product management for HyperFlex at Cisco, @flash4all, number four, I love that, on Twitter. And Darren Williams, the director of business development and sales for Cisco. MrHyperFlex, @MrHyperFlex on Twitter. Thanks guys. Hey, we're going to talk about some news and HyperFlex, and what role it plays in accelerating the hybrid cloud journey. Gentlemen, welcome to theCUBE, good to see you. >> Thanks a lot Dave. >> Thanks Dave. >> All right Darren, let's start with you. So, for a hybrid cloud, you got to have on-prem connection, right? So, you got to have basically a private cloud. What are your thoughts on that? >> Yeah, we agree. You can't have a hybrid cloud without that prime element. And you've got to have a strong foundation in terms of how you set up the whole benefit of the cloud model you're building in terms of what you want to try and get back from the cloud. You need a strong foundation. Hyperconversions provides that. We see more and more customers requiring a private cloud, and they're building it with Hyperconversions, in particular HyperFlex. Now to make all that work, they need a good strong cloud operations model to be able to connect both the private and the public. And that's where we look at Intersight. We've got solution around that to be able to connect that around a SaaS offering. That looks around simplified operations, gives them optimization, and also automation to bring both private and public together in that hybrid world. >> Darren let's stay with you for a minute. When you talk to your customers, what are they thinking these days when it comes to implementing hyperconverged infrastructure in both the enterprise and at the edge, what are they trying to achieve? >> So there's many things they're trying to achieve, probably the most brutal honesty is they're trying to save money, that's probably the quickest answer. But, I think they're trying to look in terms of simplicity, how can they remove layers of components they've had before in their infrastructure? We see obviously collapsing of storage into hyperconversions and storage networking. And we've got customers that have saved 80% worth of savings by doing that collapse into a hyperconversion infrastructure away from their Three Tier infrastructure. Also about scalability, they don't know the end game. So they're looking about how they can size for what they know now, and how they can grow that with hyperconvergence very easy. It's one of the major factors and benefits of hyperconversions. They also obviously need performance and consistent performance. They don't want to compromise performance around their virtual machines when they want to run multiple workloads. They need that consistency all all way through. And then probably one of the biggest ones is that around the simplicity model is the management layer, ease of management. To make it easier for their operations, yeah, we've got customers that have told us, they've saved 50% of costs in their operations model on deploying HyperFlex, also around the time savings they make massive time savings which they can reinvest in their infrastructure and their operations teams in being able to innovate and go forward. And then I think probably one of the biggest pieces we've seen as people move away from three tier architecture is the deployment elements. And the ease of deployment gets easy with hyperconverged, especially with Edge. Edge is a major key use case for us. And, what I want, what our customers want to do is get the benefit of a data center at the edge, without A, the big investment. They don't want to compromise in performance, and they want that simplicity in both management and deployment. And, we've seen our analysts recommendations around what their readers are telling them in terms of how management deployment's key for our IT operations teams. And how much they're actually saving by deploying Edge and taking the burden away when they deploy hyperconversions. And as I said, the savings elements is the key bit, and again, not always, but obviously those are case studies around about public cloud being quite expensive at times, over time for the wrong workloads. So by bringing them back, people can make savings. And we again have customers that have made 50% savings over three years compared to their public cloud usage. So, I'd say that's the key things that customers are looking for. Yeah. >> Great, thank you for that Darren. Manish, we have some hard news, you've been working a lot on evolving the HyperFlex line. What's the big news that you've just announced? >> Yeah, thanks Dave. So there are several things that we are announcing today. The first one is a new offer called HyperFlex Express. This is, you know, Cisco Intersight led and Cisco Intersight managed eight HyperFlex configurations. That we feel are the fastest path to hybrid cloud. The second is we are expanding our server portfolio by adding support for HX on AMD Rack, UCS AMD Rack. And the third is a new capability that we are introducing, that we are calling, local containerized witness. And let me take a minute to explain what this is. This is a pretty nifty capability to optimize for Edge environments. So, you know, this leverages the, Cisco's ubiquitous presence of the networking, you know, products that we have in the environments worldwide. So the smallest HyperFlex configuration that we have is a 2-node configuration, which is primarily used in Edge environments. Think of a, you know, a backroom in a departmental store or a oil rig, or it might even be a smaller data center somewhere around the globe. For these 2-node configurations, there is always a need for a third entity that, you know, industry term for that is either a witness or an arbitrator. We had that for HyperFlex as well. And the problem that customers face is, where you host this witness. It cannot be on the cluster because the job of the witness is to, when the infrastructure is going down, it basically breaks, sort of arbitrates which node gets to survive. So it needs to be outside of the cluster. But finding infrastructure to actually host this is a problem, especially in the Edge environments where these are resource constraint environments. So what we've done is we've taken that witness, we've converted it into a container reform factor. And then qualified a very large slew of Cisco networking products that we have, right from ISR, ASR, Nexus, Catalyst, industrial routers, even a Raspberry Pi that can host this witness. Eliminating the need for you to find yet another piece of infrastructure, or doing any, you know, care and feeding of that infrastructure. You can host it on something that already exists in the environment. So those are the three things that we are announcing today. >> So I want to ask you about HyperFlex Express. You know, obviously the whole demand and supply chain is out of whack. Everybody's, you know, global supply chain issues are in the news, everybody's dealing with it. Can you expand on that a little bit more? Can HyperFlex Express help customers respond to some of these issues? >> Yeah indeed Dave. You know the primary motivation for HyperFlex Express was indeed an idea that, you know, one of the folks are on my team had, which was to build a set of HyperFlex configurations that are, you know, would have a shorter lead time. But as we were brainstorming, we were actually able to tag on multiple other things and make sure that, you know, there is in it for, something in it for our customers, for sales, as well as our partners. So for example, you know, for our customers, we've been able to dramatically simplify the configuration and the install for HyperFlex Express. These are still HyperFlex configurations and you would at the end of it, get a HyperFlex cluster. But the part to that cluster is much, much simplified. Second is that we've added in flexibility where you can now deploy these, these are data center configurations, but you can deploy these with or without fabric interconnects, meaning you can deploy with your existing top of rack. We've also, you know, added attractive price point for these, and of course, you know, these will have better lead times because we've made sure that, you know, we are using components that are, that we have clear line of sight from our supply perspective. For partner and sales, this is, represents a high velocity sales motion, a faster turnaround time, and a frictionless sales motion for our distributors. This is actually a set of disty-friendly configurations, which they would find very easy to stalk, and with a quick turnaround time, this would be very attractive for the distys as well. >> It's interesting Manish, I'm looking at some fresh survey data, more than 70% of the customers that were surveyed, this is the ETR survey again, we mentioned 'em at the top. More than 70% said they had difficulty procuring server hardware and networking was also a huge problem. So that's encouraging. What about, Manish, AMD? That's new for HyperFlex. What's that going to give customers that they couldn't get before? >> Yeah Dave, so, you know, in the short time that we've had UCS AMD Rack support, we've had several record making benchmark results that we've published. So it's a powerful platform with a lot of performance in it. And HyperFlex, you know, the differentiator that we've had from day one is that it has the industry leading storage performance. So with this, we are going to get the fastest compute, together with the fastest storage. And this, we are hoping that we'll, it'll basically unlock, you know, a, unprecedented level of performance and efficiency, but also unlock several new workloads that were previously locked out from the hyperconverged experience. >> Yeah, cool. So Darren, can you give us an idea as to how HyperFlex is doing in the field? >> Sure, absolutely. So, both me and Manish been involved right from the start even before it was called HyperFlex, and we've had a great journey. And it's very exciting to see where we are taking, where we've been with the technology. So we have over 5,000 customers worldwide, and we're currently growing faster year over year than the market. The majority of our customers are repeat buyers, which is always a good sign in terms of coming back when they've proved the technology and are comfortable with the technology. They, repeat buyer for expanded capacity, putting more workloads on. They're using different use cases on there. And from an Edge perspective, more numbers of science. So really good endorsement of the technology. We get used across all verticals, all segments, to house mission critical applications, as well as the traditional virtual server infrastructures. And we are the lifeblood of our customers around those, mission critical customers. I think one big example, and I apologize for the worldwide audience, but this resonates with the American audience is, the Super Bowl. So, the SoFi stadium that housed the Super Bowl, actually has Cisco HyperFlex running all the management services, through from the entire stadium for digital signage, 4k video distribution, and it's completely cashless. So, if that were to break during Super Bowl, that would've been a big news article. But it was run perfectly. We, in the design of the solution, we're able to collapse down nearly 200 servers into a few nodes, across a few racks, and have 120 virtual machines running the whole stadium, without missing a heartbeat. And that is mission critical for you to run Super Bowl, and not be on the front of the press afterwards for the wrong reasons, that's a win for us. So we really are, really happy with HyperFlex, where it's going, what it's doing, and some of the use cases we're getting involved in, very, very exciting. >> Hey, come on Darren, it's Super Bowl, NFL, that's international now. And-- >> Thing is, I follow NFL. >> The NFL's, it's invading London, of course, I see the, the picture, the real football over your shoulder. But, last question for Manish. Give us a little roadmap, what's the future hold for HyperFlex? >> Yeah. So, you know, as Darren said, both Darren and I have been involved with HyperFlex since the beginning. But, I think the best is yet to come. There are three main pillars for HyperFlex. One is, Intersight is central to our strategy. It provides a, you know, lot of customer benefit from a single pane of class management. But we are going to take this beyond the lifecycle management, which is for HyperFlex, which is integrated into Intersight today, and element management. We are going to take it beyond that and start delivering customer value on the dimensions of AI Ops, because Intersight really provides us a ideal platform to gather stats from all the clusters across the globe, do AI/ML and do some predictive analysis with that, and return back as, you know, customer valued, actionable insights. So that is one. The second is UCS expand the HyperFlex portfolio, go beyond UCS to third party server platforms, and newer UCS server platforms as well. But the highlight there is one that I'm really, really excited about and think that there is a lot of potential in terms of the number of customers we can help. Is HX on X-Series. X-Series is another thing that we are going to, you know, add, we're announcing a bunch of capabilities on in this particular launch. But HX on X-Series will have that by the end of this calendar year. And that should unlock with the flexibility of X-Series of hosting a multitude of workloads and the simplicity of HyperFlex. We're hoping that would bring a lot of benefits to new workloads that were locked out previously. And then the last thing is HyperFlex data platform. This is the heart of the offering today. And, you'll see the HyperFlex data platform itself it's a distributed architecture, a unique distributed architecture. Primarily where we get our, you know, record baring performance from. You'll see it can foster more scalable, more resilient, and we'll optimize it for you know, containerized workloads, meaning it'll get granular containerized, container granular management capabilities, and optimize for public cloud. So those are some things that we are, the team is busy working on, and we should see that come to fruition. I'm hoping that we'll be back at this forum in maybe before the end of the year, and talking about some of these newer capabilities. >> That's great. Thank you very much for that, okay guys, we got to leave it there. And you know, Manish was talking about the HX on X-Series that's huge, customers are going to love that and it's a great transition 'cause in a moment, I'll be back with Vikas Ratna and Jim Leach, and we're going to dig into X-Series. Some real serious engineering went into this platform, and we're going to explore what it all means. You're watching Simplifying Hybrid Cloud on theCUBE, your leader in enterprise tech coverage. >> The power is here, and here, but also here. And definitely here. Anywhere you need the full force and power of your infrastructure hyperconverged. It's like having thousands of data centers wherever you need them, powering applications anywhere they live, but manage from the cloud. So you can automate everything from here. (upbeat music) Cisco HyperFlex goes anywhere. Cisco, the bridge to possible. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back to theCUBE's special presentation, Simplifying Hybrid Cloud brought to you by Cisco. We're here with Vikas Ratna who's the director of product management for UCS at Cisco and James Leach, who is director of business development at Cisco. Gents, welcome back to theCUBE, good to see you again. >> Hey, thanks for having us. >> Okay, Jim, let's start. We know that when it comes to navigating a transition to hybrid cloud, it's a complicated situation for a lot of customers, and as organizations as they hit the pavement for their hybrid cloud journeys, what are the most common challenges that they face? What are they telling you? How is Cisco, specifically UCS helping them deal with these problems? >> Well, you know, first I think that's a, you know, that's a great question. And you know, customer centric view is the way that we've taken, is kind of the approach we've taken from day one. Right? So I think that if you look at the challenges that we're solving for that our customers are facing, you could break them into just a few kind of broader buckets. The first would definitely be applications, right? That's the, that's where the rubber meets your proverbial road with the customer. And I would say that, you know, what we're seeing is, the challenges customers are facing within applications come from the the way that applications have evolved. So what we're seeing now is more data centric applications for example. Those require that we, you know, are able to move and process large data sets really in real time. And the other aspect of applications I think to give our customers kind of some, you know, pause some challenges, would be around the fact that they're changing so quickly. So the application that exists today or the day that they, you know, make a purchase of infrastructure to be able to support that application, that application is most likely changing so much more rapidly than the infrastructure can keep up with today. So, that creates some challenges around, you know, how do I build the infrastructure? How do I right size it without over provisioning, for example? But also, there's a need for some flexibility around life cycle and planning those purchase cycles based on the life cycle of the different hardware elements. And within the infrastructure, which I think is the second bucket of challenges, we see customers who are being forced to move away from the, like a modular or blade approach, which offers a lot of operational and consolidation benefits, and they have to move to something like a Rack server model for some applications because of these needs that these data centric applications have, and that creates a lot of you know, opportunity for siloing the infrastructure. And those silos in turn create multiple operating models within the, you know, a data center environment that, you know, again, drive a lot of complexity. So that, complexity is definitely the enemy here. And then finally, I think life cycles. We're seeing this democratization of processing if you will, right? So it's no longer just CPU focused, we have GPU, we have FPGA, we have, you know, things that are being done in storage and the fabrics that stitch them together that are all changing rapidly and have very different life cycles. So, when those life cycles don't align for a lot of our customers, they see a challenge in how they can manage this, you know, these different life cycles and still make a purchase without having to make too big of a compromise in one area or another because of the misalignment of life cycles. So, that is a, you know, kind of the other bucket. And then finally, I think management is huge, right? So management, you know, at its core is really right size for our customers and give them the most value when it meets the mark around scale and scope. You know, back in 2009, we weren't meeting that mark in the industry and UCS came about and took management outside the chassis, right? We put it at the top of the rack and that worked great for the scale and scope we needed at that time. However, as things have changed, we're seeing a very new scale and scope needed, right? So we're talking about a hybrid cloud world that has to manage across data centers, across clouds, and, you know, having to stitch things together for some of our customers poses a huge challenge. So there are tools for all of those operational pieces that touch the application, that touch the infrastructure, but they're not the same tool. They tend to be disparate tools that have to be put together. >> Right. >> So our customers, you know, don't really enjoy being in the business of, you know, building their own tools, so that creates a huge challenge. And one where I think that they really crave that full hybrid cloud stack that has that application visibility but also can reach down into the infrastructure. >> Right. You know Jim, I said in my open that you guys, Cisco sort of changed the server game with the original UCS, but the X-Series is the next generation, the generation for the next decade which is really important 'cause you touched on a lot of things, these data intensive workload, alternative processors to sort of meet those needs. The whole cloud operating model and hybrid cloud has really changed. So, how's it going with with the X-Series? You made a big splash last year, what's the reception been in the field? >> Actually, it's been great. You know, we're finding that customers can absolutely relate to our, you know, UCS X-Series story. I think that, you know, the main reason they relate to it is they helped create it, right? It was their feedback and their partnership that gave us really the, those problem areas, those areas that we could solve for the customer that actually add, you know, significant value. So, you know, since we brought UCS to market back in 2009, you know, we had this unique architectural paradigm that we created, and I think that created a product which was the fastest in Cisco history in terms of growth. What we're seeing now is X-Series is actually on a faster trajectory. So we're seeing a tremendous amount of uptake. We're seeing all, you know, both in terms of, you know, the number of customers, but also more importantly, the number of workloads that our customers are using, and the types of workloads are growing, right? So we're growing this modular segment that exist, not just, you know, bringing customers onto a new product, but we're actually bring them into the product in the way that we had envisioned, which is one infrastructure that can run any application and do it seamlessly. So we're really excited to be growing this modular segment. I think the other piece, you know, that, you know, we judge ourselves is, you know, sort of not just within Cisco, but also within the industry. And I think right now is a, you know, a great example, you know, our competitors have taken kind of swings and misses over the past five years at this, at a, you know, kind of the new next architecture. And, we're seeing a tremendous amount of growth even faster than any of our competitors have seen when they announced something that was new to this space. So, I think that the ground up work that we did is really paying off. And I think that what we're also seeing is it's not really a leap frog game, as it may have been in the past. X-Series is out in front today, and, you know, we're extending that lead with some of the new features and capabilities we have. So we're delivering on the story that's already been resonating with customers and, you know, we're pretty excited that we're seeing the results as well. So, as our competitors hit walls, I think we're, you know, we're executing on the plan that we laid out back in June when we launched X-Series to the world. And, you know, as we continue to do that, we're seeing, you know, again, tremendous uptake from our customers. >> So thank you for that Jim. So Vikas, I was just on Twitter just today actually talking about the gravitational pull, you've got the public clouds pulling CXOs one way and you know, on-prem folks pulling the other way and hybrid cloud. So, organizations are struggling with a lot of different systems and architectures and ways to do things. And I said that what they're trying to do is abstract all that complexity away and they need infrastructure to support that. And I think your stated aim is really to try to help with that confusion with the X series, right? I mean, so how so can you explain that? >> Sure. And, that's the right, the context that you built up right there Dave. If you walk into enterprise data center you'll see plethora of compute systems spread all across. Because, every application has its unique needs, and, hence you find drive node, drive-dense system, memory dense system, GPU dense system, core dense system, and variety of form factors, 1U, 2U, 4U, and, every one of them typically come with, you know, variety of adapters and cables and so forth. This creates the siloness of resources. Fabric is (indistinct), the adapter is (indistinct). The power and cooling implication. The Rack, you know, face challenges. And, above all, the multiple management plane that they come up with, which makes it very difficult for IT to have one common center policy, and enforce it all across, across the firmware and software and so forth. And then think about upgrade challenges of the siloness makes it even more complex as these go through the upgrade processes of their own. As a result, we observe quite a few of our customers, you know, really seeing an inter, slowness in that agility, and high burden in the cost of overall ownership. This is where with the X-Series powered by Intersight, we have one simple goal. We want to make sure our customers get out of that complexities. They become more agile, and drive lower TCOs. And we are delivering it by doing three things, three aspects of simplification. First, simplify their whole infrastructure by enabling them to run their entire workload on single infrastructure. An infrastructure which removes the siloness of form factor. An infrastructure which reduces the Rack footprint that is required. An infrastructure where power and cooling budgets are in the lower. Second, we want to simplify by delivering a cloud operating model, where they can and create the policy once across compute network storage and deploy it all across. And third, we want to take away the pain they have by simplifying the process of upgrade and any platform evolution that they're going to go through in the next two, three years. So that's where the focus is on just driving down the simplicity, lowering down their TCOs. >> Oh, that's key, less friction is always a good thing. Now, of course, Vikas we heard from the HyperFlex guys earlier, they had news not to be outdone. You have hard news as well. What innovations are you announcing around X-Series today? >> Absolutely. So we are following up on the exciting X-Series announcement that we made in June last year, Dave. And we are now introducing three innovation on X-Series with the goal of three things. First, expand the supported workload on X-Series. Second, take the performance to new levels. Third, dramatically reduce the complexities in the data center by driving down the number of adapters and cables that are needed. To that end, three new innovations are coming in. First, we are introducing the support for the GPU node using a cableless and very unique X-Fabric architecture. This is the most elegant design to add the GPUs to the compute node in the modular form factor. Thereby, our customers can now power in AI/ML workload, or any workload that need many more number of GPUs. Second, we are bringing in GPUs right onto the compute node, and thereby our customers can now fire up the accelerated VDI workload for example. And third, which is what you know, we are extremely proud about, is we are innovating again by introducing the fifth generation of our very popular unified fabric technology. With the increased bandwidth that it brings in, coupled with the local drive capacity and densities that we have on the compute node, our customers can now fire up the big data workload, the FCI workload, the SDS workload. All these workloads that have historically not lived in the modular form factor, can be run over there and benefit from the architectural benefits that we have. Second, with the announcement of fifth generation fabric, we've become the only vendor to now finally enable 100 gig end to end single port bandwidth, and there are multiple of those that are coming in there. And we are working very closely with our CI partners to deliver the benefit of these performance through our Cisco Validated Design to our CI franchise. And third, the innovations in the fifth gen fabric will again allow our customers to have fewer physical adapters made with ethernet adapter, made with power channel adapters, or made with, the other storage adapters. They've reduced it down and coupled with the reduction in the cable. So very, very excited about these three big announcements that we are making in this month's release. >> Great, a lot there, you guys have been busy, so thank you for that Vikas. So, Jim, you talked a little bit about the momentum that you have, customers are adopting, what problems are they telling you that X-Series addresses, and how do they align with where they want to go in the future? >> That's a great question. I think if you go back to, and think about some of the things that we mentioned before, in terms of the problems that we originally set out to solve, we're seeing a lot of traction. So what Vikas mentioned I think is really important, right? Those pieces that we just announced really enhance that story and really move again, to the, kind of, to the next level of taking advantage of some of these, you know, problem solving for our customers. You know, if you look at, you know, I think Vikas mentioned accelerated VDI. That's a great example. These are where customers, you know, they need to have this dense compute, they need video acceleration, they need tight policy management, right? And they need to be able to deploy these systems anywhere in the world. Well, that's exactly what we're hitting on here with X-Series right now. We're hitting the market in every single way, right? We have the highest compute config density that we can offer across the, you know, the very top end configurations of CPUs, and a lot of room to grow. We have the, you know, the premier cloud based management, you know, hybrid cloud suite in the industry, right? So check there. We have the flexible GPU accelerators that Vikas just talked about that we're announcing both on the system and also adding additional ones to the, through the use of the X-Fabric, which is really, really critical to this launch as well. And, you know, I think finally, the fifth generation of fabric interconnect and virtual interface card, and, intelligent fabric module go hand in hand in creating this 100 gig end to end bandwidth story, that we can move a lot of data. Again, you know, having all this performance is only as good as what we can get in and out of it, right? So giving customers the ability to manage it anywhere, to be able to get the bandwidth that they need, to be able to get the accelerators that are flexible that it fit exactly their needs, this is huge, right? This solves a lot of the problems we can tick off right away. With the infrastructure as I mentioned, X-Fabric is really critical here because it opens a lot of doors here, you know, we're talking about GPUs today, but in the future, there are other elements that we can disaggregate, like the GPUs that solve these life cycle mismanagement issues. They solve issues around the form factor limitations. It solves all these issues for like, it does for GPU we can do that with storage or memory in the future. So that's going to be huge, right? This is disaggregation that actually delivers, right? It's not just a gimmicky bar trick here that we're doing, this is something that customers can really get value out of day one. And then finally, I think the, you know, the future readiness here, you know, we avoid saying future proof because we're kind of embracing the future here. We know that not only are the GPUs going to evolve, the CPUs are going to evolve, the drives, you know, the storage modules are going to evolve. All of these things are changing very rapidly. The fabric that stitches them together is critical, and we know that we're just on the edge of some of the development that are coming with CXL, with some of the PCI Express changes that are coming in the very near future, so we're ready to go. And the X-Fabric is exactly the vehicle that's going to be able to deliver those technologies to our customers, right? Our customers are out there saying that, you know, they want to buy into to something like X-Series that has all the operational benefits, but at the same time, they have to have the comfort in knowing that they're protected against being locked out of some technology that's coming in the future, right? We want our customers to take these disruptive technologies and not be disrupted, but use them to disrupt their competition as well. So, you know, we're really excited about the pieces today, and, I think it goes a long way towards continuing to tell the customer benefit story that X-Series brings, and, you know, again, you know, stay tuned because it's going to keep getting better as we go. >> Yeah, a lot of headroom for scale and the management piece is key there. Just have time for one more question Vikas. Give us some nuggets on the roadmap. What's next for X-Series that we can look forward to? >> Absolutely Dave. As we talked about, and as Jim also hinted, this is a future ready architecture. A lot of focus and innovation that we are going through is about enabling our customers to seamlessly and painlessly adopt very disruptive hardware technologies that are coming up, no refund replace. And, there we are looking into, enabling the customer's journey as they transition from PCI generation four, to five to six without driven replace, as they embrace CXL without driven replace. As they embrace the newer paradigm of computing through the disaggregated memory, disaggregated PCIe or NVMe based dense drives, and so forth. We are also looking forward to X-Fabric next generation, which will allow dynamic assignment of GPUs anywhere within the chassis and much more. So this is again, all about focusing on the innovation that will make the enterprise data center operations a lot more simpler, and drive down the TCO by keeping them not only covered for today, but also for future. So that's where some of the focus is on Dave. >> Okay. Thank you guys we'll leave it there, in a moment, I'll have some closing thoughts. (upbeat music) We're seeing a major evolution, perhaps even a bit of a revolution in the underlying infrastructure necessary to support hybrid work. Look, virtualizing compute and running general purpose workloads is something IT figured out a long time ago. But just when you have it nailed down in the technology business, things change, don't they? You can count on that. The cloud operating model has bled into on-premises locations. And is creating a new vision for the future, which we heard a lot about today. It's a vision that's turning into reality. And it supports much more diverse and data intensive workloads and alternative compute modes. It's one where flexibility is a watch word, enabling change, attacking complexity, and bringing a management capability that allows for a granular management of resources at massive scale. I hope you've enjoyed this special presentation. Remember, all these videos are available on demand at thecube.net. And if you want to learn more, please click on the information link. Thanks for watching Simplifying Hybrid Cloud brought to you by Cisco and theCUBE, your leader in enterprise tech coverage. This is Dave Vellante, be well and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE. Presenting Future Cloud. One event, a world of opportunities. Brought to you by Cisco. >> Okay. We're here with Thomas Scheibe, who's the vice president of Product Management, aka VP of all things Data Center Networking, STN, cloud, you name it in that category. Welcome Thomas, good to see you again. >> Hey, same here. Thanks for having me on. >> Yeah, it's our pleasure. Okay. Let's get right into observability. When you think about observability, visibility, infrastructure monitoring, problem resolution across the network, how does cloud change things? In other words, what are the challenges that networking teams are currently facing as they're moving to the cloud and trying to implement hybrid cloud? >> Yeah. (scoffs) Yeah. Visibility as always is very, very important and it's quite frankly, it's not just, it's not just the networking team, it's actually the application team too, right? And as you pointed out, the the underlying impetus to what's going on here is the, the data center is wherever the data is, and I think we said this a couple years back. And really what happens the, the applications are going to be deployed in different locations, right? Whether it's in a public cloud, whether it's on-prem and they're built differently, right? They're built as micro servers, so they might actually be distributed as well at the same application. And so what that really means is you need, as an operator as well as actually a user, a better visibility, "where are my pieces?", and you need to be able to correlate between where the app is and what the underlying network is, that is in place in these different locations. So you have actually a good knowledge why the app is running so fantastic or sometimes not. So I think that's, that's really the problem statement. What, what we're trying to go after with observability. >> Okay. Let's, let's double click on that. So, so a lot of customers tell me that you got to stare at log files until your eyes bleed, then you've got to bring in guys with lab coats who have PhDs to figure all this stuff out. >> Thomas: Yeah. >> So you just described, it's getting more complex, but at the same time, you have to simplify things. So how, how are you doing that? >> Correct. So what we basically have done is we have this fantastic product that is called ThousandEyes. And so what this does is basically (chuckles) as the name which I think is a fantastic, fantastic name. You have these sensors everywhere and you can have a good correlation on links between if I run a from a site to a site, from a site to a cloud, from the cloud to cloud. And you basic can measure what is the performance of these links? And so what we're, what we're doing here is we're actually extending the footprint of the ThousandEyes agent, right? Instead of just having a, an inversion machine of clouds we are now embedding them with the Cisco network devices, right? We announced this was the Catalyst 9000. And we're extending this now to our 8000 Catalyst product line for the for the SD-WAN products, as well as to the data center products, in Nexus line. And so what you see is, is you know, a half a thing, you have ThousandEyes. You get a million insights and you get a billion dollar off improvements for how your applications run. And this is really the, the power of tying together the footprint of what a network is with the visibility, what is going on. So you actually know the application behavior that is attached to this network. >> I see. So, okay. So as the cloud evolves, it expands, it connects, you're actually enabling ThousandEyes to go further, not just confined within a single data center location but out to the network across clouds, et cetera. >> Thomas: Correct. >> Wherever the network is you're going to have a ThousandEyes sensor and you can bring this together and you can quite frankly pick, if you want to say, Hey I have my application in public cloud provider A domain one, and I have another one in domain two I can do monitor that link. I can also monitor, I have a user that has a campus location or a branch location. I kind of put an agent there and then I can monitor the connectivity from that branch location all the way to the, let's say, corporation's data center or headquarter or to the cloud. And I can have these probes and just the, have visibility in saying, Hey, if there's a performance I know where the issue is. And then I obviously can use all the other tools that we have to address those. >> All right, let's talk about the cloud operating model. Everybody tells us that, you know, it's really the change in the model that drives big numbers in terms of ROI. And I want you to maybe address how you're bringing automation and DevOps to this world of hybrid and specifically, how is Cisco enabling IT organizations to move to a cloud operating model as that cloud definition expands? >> Yeah, no, that's that's another interesting topic beyond the observability. So it really, really what we're seeing, and this is going on for, I want to say couple of years now it's really this transition from operating infrastructure as a networking team, more like a service like what you would expect from a cloud provider, right? This is really around the networking team offering services like a cloud provided us. And that's really what the meaning is of cloud operating model, right? Where this is infrastructure running your own data center where that's linking that infrastructure was whatever runs on the public cloud is operating it like a cloud service. And so we are on this journey for a while. So one of the examples um that we have, we're moving some of the control software assets that customers today can deploy on-prem to an instance that they can deploy in a, in a cloud provider and just basically instantiate things there and then just run it that way. Right? And so the latest example for this is what we have, our Identity Service Engine that is now unlimited availability, available on AWS and will become available mid this year, both on AWS and Azure, as a service. You can just go to Marketplace, you can load it there and now increase. You can start running your policy control in the cloud managing your access infrastructure in your data center, in your campus, wherever you want to do it. And so that's just one example of how we see our Customers Network Operations team taking advantage of a cloud operating model and basically deploying their, their tools where they need them and when they need them. >> Dave: So >> What's the scope of I, I hope I'm saying it right, ISE, right? I.S.E, I think it's um, you call it ISE. What's the scope of that? Like for instance, to an effect my, or even, you know address, simplify my security approach? >> Absolutely. That's now coming to what is the beauty of the product itself? Yes. What you can do is really is, a lot of people talking about is, how do I get to a Zero Trust approach to networking? How do I get to a much more dynamic, flexible segmentation in my infrastructure, again, whether this was only campus access as well as the data center and ISE helps you there. You can use it as a pawn to define your policies and then inter-connect from there, right. In this particular case, we would, instead of ISE in a cloud as a software, alone, you now can connect and say, Hey, I want to manage and program my network infrastructure and my data center or my campus going to the respective controller, whether it's DNA Center for campus or whether it's the, the ACI policy controller. And so yes, what you get as an effect out of this is a very elegant way to automatically manage ,in one place, "what is my policy", and then drive the right segmentation in your network infrastructure. >> Yeah. Zero Trust. It was..Pre pandemic it was kind of a buzzword, now it's become a mandate. I, I wonder if we could talk about- >> Thomas: - Yes >> Yeah, right. I mean, so- >> Thomas: -Pretty much. >> I wondered if we could talk about cloud native apps. You got all these developers that are working inside organizations, they're maintaining legacy apps they're connecting their data to systems in the cloud. They're sharing that data. These developers, they're rapidly advancing their skillsets. How is Cisco enabling its infrastructure to support this world of cloud native, making infrastructure more responsive and agile for application developers? >> Yeah. So you were going to the talk we saw was the visibility. We talked about the operating model how our network operates actually want to use tools going forward. Now the next step to this is, it's not just the operator. How do they actually, where do they want to put these tools? Or how they interact with this tools? As well as quite frankly, as how let's say, a DevOps team, or application team or a cloud team also wants to take advantage of the programmability of the underlying network. And this is where we're moving into this whole cloud native discussion, right. Which has really two angles. So it's the cloud native way, how applications are being built. And then there is the cloud native way, how you interact with infrastructure, right? And so what we have done is we're A, putting in place the on-ramps between clouds, and then on top of it, we're exposing for all these tools APIs that can be used and leveraged by standard cloud tools or cloud-native tools, right? And one example or two examples we always have. And again, we're on this journey for a while, is both Ansible script capabilities that access from RedHat as well as Hashi Terraform capabilities that you can orchestrate across infrastructure to drive infrastructure automation. And what, what really stands behind it is what either the networking operations team wants to do or even the app team. They want to be able to describe the application as a code and then drive automatically or programmatically instantiation of infrastructure needed for that application. And so what you see us doing is providing all these capability as an interface for all our network tools, right. Whether this is ISE, what I just mentioned, whether this is our DCN controllers in the data center whether these are the controllers in the, in the campus for all of those, we have cloud-native interfaces. So operator or a DevOps team can actually interact directly with that infrastructure the way they would do today with everything that lives on the cloud or with everything how they built the application. >> Yeah, this is key. You can't even have the conversation of of Op cloud operating model that includes and comprises on-prem without programmable infrastructure. So that's, that's very important. Last question, Thomas, are customers actually using this? You made the announcement today. Are there, are there any examples of customers out there doing this? >> We do have a lot of customers out there that are moving down the path and using the Cisco High-performance Infrastructure both on the compute side, as well as on the Nexus side. One of the costumers, and this is like an interesting case, is Rakuten. Rakuten is a large telco provider, a mobile 5G operator in Japan and expanding, and as in different countries. And so people, some think, "Oh cloud" "You must be talking about the public cloud provider" "the big three or four". But if you look at it, there's a lot of the telco service providers are actually cloud providers as well and expanding very rapidly. And so we're actually very proud to work together with Rakuten and help them build high performance data center infrastructure based on HANA Gig and actually for a gig to drive their deployment to its 5G mobile cloud infrastructure, which is which is where the whole the whole world, which frankly is going. And so it's really exciting to see this development and see the power of automation visibility together with the High-performance infrastructure becoming a reality on delivering actually, services. >> Yeah, some great points you're making there. Yes, you have the big four clouds, they're enormous but then you have a lot of actually quite large clouds telcos that are either proximate to those clouds or they're in places where those hyper-scalers may not have a presence and building out their own infrastructure. So, so that's a great case study. Thomas.Hey, great having you on. Thanks much for spending some time with us. >> Yeah, same here. I appreciate it. Thanks a lot. >> All right. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE, the leader in tech event coverage. (upbeat music)

>>welcome. My name is Ben Bennett. I am the director of HPC Strategic programs here at Hewlett Packard Enterprise. It is my great pleasure and honor to be talking to Professor Mark Parsons from the Edinburgh Parallel Computing Center. And we're gonna talk a little about exa scale. What? It means we're gonna talk less about the technology on Maura about the science, the requirements on the need for exa scale. Uh, rather than a deep dive into the enabling technologies. Mark. Welcome. >>I then thanks very much for inviting me to tell me >>complete pleasure. Um, so I'd like to kick off with, I suppose. Quite an interesting look back. You and I are both of a certain age 25 plus, Onda. We've seen these milestones. Uh, I suppose that the S I milestones of high performance computing's come and go, you know, from a gig a flop back in 1987 teraflop in 97 a petaflop in 2000 and eight. But we seem to be taking longer in getting to an ex a flop. Um, so I'd like your thoughts. Why is why is an extra flop taking so long? >>So I think that's a very interesting question because I started my career in parallel computing in 1989. I'm gonna join in. IPCC was set up then. You know, we're 30 years old this year in 1990 on Do you know the fastest computer we have them is 800 mega flops just under a getting flogged. So in my career, we've gone already. When we reached the better scale, we'd already gone pretty much a million times faster on, you know, the step from a tariff block to a block scale system really didn't feel particularly difficult. Um, on yet the step from A from a petaflop PETA scale system. To an extent, block is a really, really big challenge. And I think it's really actually related to what's happened with computer processes over the last decade, where, individually, you know, approached the core, Like on your laptop. Whoever hasn't got much faster, we've just got more often So the perception of more speed, but actually just being delivered by more course. And as you go down that approach, you know what happens in the supercomputing world as well. We've gone, uh, in 2010 I think we had systems that were, you know, a few 1000 cores. Our main national service in the UK for the last eight years has had 118,000 cores. But looking at the X scale we're looking at, you know, four or five million cores on taming that level of parallelism is the real challenge. And that's why it's taking an enormous and time to, uh, deliver these systems. That is not just on the hardware front. You know, vendors like HP have to deliver world beating technology and it's hard, hard. But then there's also the challenge to the users. How do they get the codes to work in the face of that much parallelism? >>If you look at what the the complexity is delivering an annex a flop. Andi, you could have bought an extra flop three or four years ago. You couldn't have housed it. You couldn't have powered it. You couldn't have afforded it on, do you? Couldn't program it. But you still you could have You could have bought one. We should have been so lucky to be unable to supply it. Um, the software, um I think from our standpoint, is is looking like where we're doing mawr enabling with our customers. You sell them a machine on, then the the need then to do collaboration specifically seems mawr and Maura around the software. Um, so it's It's gonna be relatively easy to get one x a flop using limb pack, but but that's not extra scale. So what do you think? On exa scale machine versus an X? A flop machine means to the people like yourself to your users, the scientists and industry. What is an ex? A flop versus >>an exa scale? So I think, you know, supercomputing moves forward by setting itself challenges. And when you when you look at all of the excess scale programs worldwide that are trying to deliver systems that can do an X a lot form or it's actually very arbitrary challenge. You know, we set ourselves a PETA scale challenge delivering a petaflop somebody manage that, Andi. But you know, the world moves forward by setting itself challenges e think you know, we use quite arbitrary definition of what we mean is well by an exit block. So, you know, in your in my world, um, we either way, first of all, see ah flop is a computation, so multiply or it's an ad or whatever on we tend. Thio, look at that is using very high precision numbers or 64 bit numbers on Do you know, we then say, Well, you've got to do the next block. You've got to do a billion billion of those calculations every second. No, a some of the last arbitrary target Now you know today from HPD Aiken by my assistant and will do a billion billion calculations per second. And they will either do that as a theoretical peak, which would be almost unattainable, or using benchmarks that stressed the system on demonstrate a relaxing law. But again, those benchmarks themselves attuned Thio. Just do those calculations and deliver and explore been a steady I'll way if you like. So, you know, way kind of set ourselves this this this big challenge You know, the big fence on the race course, which were clambering over. But the challenge in itself actually should be. I'm much more interesting. The water we're going to use these devices for having built um, eso. Getting into the extra scale era is not so much about doing an extra block. It's a new generation off capability that allows us to do better scientific and industrial research. And that's the interesting bit in this whole story. >>I would tend to agree with you. I think the the focus around exa scale is to look at, you know, new technologies, new ways of doing things, new ways of looking at data and to get new results. So eventually you will get yourself a nexus scale machine. Um, one hopes, sooner rather >>than later. Well, I'm sure you don't tell me one, Ben. >>It's got nothing to do with may. I can't sell you anything, Mark. But there are people outside the door over there who would love to sell you one. Yes. However, if we if you look at your you know your your exa scale machine, Um, how do you believe the workloads are going to be different on an extra scale machine versus your current PETA scale machine? >>So I think there's always a slight conceit when you buy a new national supercomputer. On that conceit is that you're buying a capability that you know on. But many people will run on the whole system. Known truth. We do have people that run on the whole of our archer system. Today's A 118,000 cores, but I would say, and I'm looking at the system. People that run over say, half of that can be counted on Europe on a single hand in a year, and they're doing very specific things. It's very costly simulation they're running on. So, you know, if you look at these systems today, two things show no one is. It's very difficult to get time on them. The Baroque application procedures All of the requirements have to be assessed by your peers and your given quite limited amount of time that you have to eke out to do science. Andi people tend to run their applications in the sweet spot where their application delivers the best performance on You know, we try to push our users over time. Thio use reasonably sized jobs. I think our average job says about 20,000 course, she's not bad, but that does mean that as we move to the exits, kill two things have to happen. One is actually I think we've got to be more relaxed about giving people access to the system, So let's give more people access, let people play, let people try out ideas they've never tried out before. And I think that will lead to a lot more innovation and computational science. But at the same time, I think we also need to be less precious. You know, we to accept these systems will have a variety of sizes of job on them. You know, we're still gonna have people that want to run four million cores or two million cores. That's absolutely fine. Absolutely. Salute those people for trying really, really difficult. But then we're gonna have a huge spectrum of views all the way down to people that want to run on 500 cores or whatever. So I think we need Thio broaden the user base in Alexa Skill system. And I know this is what's happening, for example, in Japan with the new Japanese system. >>So, Mark, if you cast your mind back to almost exactly a year ago after the HPC user forum, you were interviewed for Premier Magazine on Do you alluded in that article to the needs off scientific industrial users requiring, you know, uh on X a flop or an exa scale machine it's clear in your in your previous answer regarding, you know, the workloads. Some would say that the majority of people would be happier with, say, 10 100 petaflop machines. You know, democratization. More people access. But can you provide us examples at the type of science? The needs of industrial users that actually do require those resources to be put >>together as an exa scale machine? So I think you know, it's a very interesting area. At the end of the day, these systems air bought because they are capability systems on. I absolutely take the argument. Why shouldn't we buy 10 100 pattern block systems? But there are a number of scientific areas even today that would benefit from a nexus school system and on these the sort of scientific areas that will use as much access onto a system as much time and as much scale of the system as they can, as you can give them eso on immediate example. People doing chroma dynamics calculations in particle physics, theoretical calculations, they would just use whatever you give them. But you know, I think one of the areas that is very interesting is actually the engineering space where, you know, many people worry the engineering applications over the last decade haven't really kept up with this sort of supercomputers that we have. I'm leading a project called Asimov, funded by M. P S O. C in the UK, which is jointly with Rolls Royce, jointly funded by Rolls Royce and also working with the University of Cambridge, Oxford, Bristol, Warrick. We're trying to do the whole engine gas turbine simulation for the first time. So that's looking at the structure of the gas turbine, the airplane engine, the structure of it, how it's all built it together, looking at the fluid dynamics off the air and the hot gasses, the flu threat, looking at the combustion of the engine looking how fuel is spread into the combustion chamber. Looking at the electrics around, looking at the way the engine two forms is, it heats up and cools down all of that. Now Rolls Royce wants to do that for 20 years. Andi, Uh, whenever they certify, a new engine has to go through a number of physical tests, and every time they do on those tests, it could cost them as much as 25 to $30 million. These are very expensive tests, particularly when they do what's called a blade off test, which would be, you know, blade failure. They could prove that the engine contains the fragments of the blade. Sort of think, continue face really important test and all engines and pass it. What we want to do is do is use an exa scale computer to properly model a blade off test for the first time, so that in future, some simulations can become virtual rather than having thio expend all of the money that Rolls Royce would normally spend on. You know, it's a fascinating project is a really hard project to do. One of the things that I do is I am deaf to share this year. Gordon Bell Price on bond I've really enjoyed to do. That's one of the major prizes in our area, you know, gets announced supercomputing every year. So I have the pleasure of reading all the submissions each year. I what's been really interesting thing? This is my third year doing being on the committee on what's really interesting is the way that big systems like Summit, for example, in the US have pushed the user communities to try and do simulations Nowhere. Nobody's done before, you know. And we've seen this as well, with papers coming after the first use of the for Goku system in Japan, for example, people you know, these are very, very broad. So, you know, earthquake simulation, a large Eddie simulations of boats. You know, a number of things around Genome Wide Association studies, for example. So the use of these computers spans of last area off computational science. I think the really really important thing about these systems is their challenging people that do calculations they've never done before. That's what's important. >>Okay, Thank you. You talked about challenges when I nearly said when you and I had lots of hair, but that's probably much more true of May. Um, we used to talk about grand challenges we talked about, especially around the teraflop era, the ski red program driving, you know, the grand challenges of science, possibly to hide the fact that it was a bomb designing computer eso they talked about the grand challenges. Um, we don't seem to talk about that much. We talk about excess girl. We talk about data. Um Where are the grand challenges that you see that an exa scale computer can you know it can help us. Okay, >>so I think grand challenges didn't go away. Just the phrase went out of fashion. Um, that's like my hair. I think it's interesting. The I do feel the science moves forward by setting itself grand challenges and always had has done, you know, my original backgrounds in particle physics. I was very lucky to spend four years at CERN working in the early stage of the left accelerator when it first came online on. Do you know the scientists there? I think they worked on left 15 years before I came in and did my little ph d on it. Andi, I think that way of organizing science hasn't changed. We just talked less about grand challenges. I think you know what I've seen over the last few years is a renaissance in computational science, looking at things that have previously, you know, people have said have been impossible. So a couple of years ago, for example, one of the key Gordon Bell price papers was on Genome Wide Association studies on some of it. If I may be one of the winner of its, if I remember right on. But that was really, really interesting because first of all, you know, the sort of the Genome Wide Association Studies had gone out of favor in the bioinformatics by a scientist community because people thought they weren't possible to compute. But that particular paper should Yes, you could do these really, really big Continental little problems in a reasonable amount of time if you had a big enough computer. And one thing I felt all the way through my career actually is we've probably discarded Mawr simulations because they were impossible at the time that we've actually decided to do. And I sometimes think we to challenge ourselves by looking at the things we've discovered in the past and say, Oh, look, you know, we could actually do that now, Andi, I think part of the the challenge of bringing an extra service toe life is to get people to think about what they would use it for. That's a key thing. Otherwise, I always say, a computer that is unused to just be turned off. There's no point in having underutilized supercomputer. Everybody loses from that. >>So Let's let's bring ourselves slightly more up to date. We're in the middle of a global pandemic. Uh, on board one of the things in our industry has bean that I've been particularly proud about is I've seen the vendors, all the vendors, you know, offering up machine's onboard, uh, making resources available for people to fight things current disease. Um, how do you see supercomputers now and in the future? Speeding up things like vaccine discovery on help when helping doctors generally. >>So I think you're quite right that, you know, the supercomputer community around the world actually did a really good job of responding to over 19. Inasmuch as you know, speaking for the UK, we put in place a rapid access program. So anybody wanted to do covert research on the various national services we have done to the to two services Could get really quick access. Um, on that, that has worked really well in the UK You know, we didn't have an archer is an old system, Aziz. You know, we didn't have the world's largest supercomputer, but it is happily bean running lots off covert 19 simulations largely for the biomedical community. Looking at Druk modeling and molecular modeling. Largely that's just been going the US They've been doing really large uh, combinatorial parameter search problems on on Summit, for example, looking to see whether or not old drugs could be reused to solve a new problem on DSO, I think, I think actually, in some respects Kobe, 19 is being the sounds wrong. But it's actually been good for supercomputing. Inasmuch is pointed out to governments that supercomputers are important parts off any scientific, the active countries research infrastructure. >>So, um, I'll finish up and tap into your inner geek. Um, there's a lot of technologies that are being banded around to currently enable, you know, the first exa scale machine, wherever that's going to be from whomever, what are the current technologies or emerging technologies that you are interested in excited about looking forward to getting your hands on. >>So in the business case I've written for the U. K's exa scale computer, I actually characterized this is a choice between the American model in the Japanese model. Okay, both of frozen, both of condoms. Eso in America, they're very much gone down the chorus plus GPU or GPU fruit. Um, so you might have, you know, an Intel Xeon or an M D process er center or unarmed process or, for that matter on you might have, you know, 24 g. P. U s. I think the most interesting thing that I've seen is definitely this move to a single address space. So the data that you have will be accessible, but the G p u on the CPU, I think you know, that's really bean. One of the key things that stopped the uptake of GPS today and that that that one single change is going Thio, I think, uh, make things very, very interesting. But I'm not entirely convinced that the CPU GPU model because I think that it's very difficult to get all the all the performance set of the GPU. You know, it will do well in H p l, for example, high performance impact benchmark we're discussing at the beginning of this interview. But in riel scientific workloads, you know, you still find it difficult to find all the performance that has promised. So, you know, the Japanese approach, which is the core, is only approach. E think it's very attractive, inasmuch as you know They're using very high bandwidth memory, very interesting process of which they are going to have to, you know, which they could develop together over 10 year period. And this is one thing that people don't realize the Japanese program and the American Mexico program has been working for 10 years on these systems. I think the Japanese process really interesting because, um, it when you look at the performance, it really does work for their scientific work clothes, and that's that does interest me a lot. This this combination of a A process are designed to do good science, high bandwidth memory and a real understanding of how data flows around the supercomputer. I think those are the things are exciting me at the moment. Obviously, you know, there's new networking technologies, I think, in the fullness of time, not necessarily for the first systems. You know, over the next decade we're going to see much, much more activity on silicon photonics. I think that's really, really fascinating all of these things. I think in some respects the last decade has just bean quite incremental improvements. But I think we're supercomputing is going in the moment. We're a very very disruptive moment again. That goes back to start this discussion. Why is extra skill been difficult to get? Thio? Actually, because the disruptive moment in technology. >>Professor Parsons, thank you very much for your time and your insights. Thank you. Pleasure and folks. Thank you for watching. I hope you've learned something, or at least enjoyed it. With that, I would ask you to stay safe and goodbye.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube presenting accelerating automation with definite brought to you by Cisco. Hey, welcome back. And Buddy Jeffrey here with the Cube coming from our Palo Alto studio with ongoing coverage of the Cisco Definite event is called Accelerating Automation with definite in the new normal. And we certainly know the new normal is not going away. We've been doing this since the middle of March. We're all the way to October. And so we're excited of our next guest. He's Thomas Shy V. He's the vice president of product marketing and data center networking for the intent based networking group at Cisco. Thomas, great to see you. >>Hey, good to see you, too. Yeah. Yeah. And truly running in normal, as everybody can see in our background. >>Exactly. Exactly so. But I mean, I'm curious. We've talked to a lot of people. We talked to a lot of leaders, you know, especially like back in March and April with this light switch moment, which was, you know, no time to prep. And suddenly everybody has to work from home. Teachers got to teach from home. And so you got the kids home. You got the spouse home. Everybody's home trying to get on the network and do their zoom calls in their classes. I'm curious from your perspective. You guys air right there on the on the network. You're right in the infrastructure. What did you hear and see? Kind of from your customers When suddenly, you know, March 16th hit and everybody had to go home. >>Well, good point. A. I do think we all appreciate the network much more than we used to do before on. Then the only other differences I'm really more on. Ravix calls and zoom called, but you know otherwise? Yes. Um what? What I do see, actually, is that, as I said, network becomes much more operates as a critical piece. And so before we really talked a lot about, uh, agility and flexibility these days, we talk much more about resiliency. Quite frankly, uh, what do I need to have in place with respect to network? To get my things from left to right and, you know, just 2000 east or west, as we say in the data center Right on. That just is for most of my customers, very, very important topic at this point, right? >>You know, it's it's amazing to think, you know, had this happened, you know, five years ago, 10 years ago. You know, the ability for so many people in the information industry to be able to actually make that transition relatively seamlessly. Eyes is actually pretty amazing. I'm sure there was some some excitement in some kudos in terms of, you know, it is all based on the network, and it is kind of this quiet thing in the background that nobody pays attention to. It's like a ref in the football game until they make a bad play. So, you know, it is pretty fascinating that you and your colleagues that put this infrastructure and that enabled us to really make that move with with with really no prep, no planning and actually have a whole lot of services delivered into our homes that were used to getting at the office or used to getting at school. >>Yeah, and I mean to your point, I mean, some of us did some planning. We're clearly talking about some of these thes trends in the way I look at this. Trans is being distributed data centers and having the ability to move your workloads and your access for users to wherever you wanna be. And so I think that clearly went on for a while. And so in a sense, we practice or knowing what we're prepping for. Um, but as I said, resiliency just became so much more important. And, you know, one of things. I actually do a little clock, a little little prep you for block I put out end of August around resiliency. Uh, you if you didn't, if you didn't put this in place, you better put in place because I think, as we all know, we saw her march. This is like, maybe two or three months. We're now in October. Uh, and I think this is the new normal for some time being. Yeah, >>I think so. So let's stick on that theme in terms of trends, right? The other great trend is public cloud, um, and hybrid cloud and multi cloud. There's all types of variants on that theme. Yeah, you had in that block post about resiliency and data center cloud networking data center cloud. You know, some people think Wait, it's it's kind of an either or either got my data center or I've got my stuff in the cloud and I got Public Cloud. And then, as I said, Hybrid cloud, you're talking really specifically about enabling, um, both in inner Data Center resiliency within multi data centers within the same enterprise as well as connecting to the cloud. That's probably counterintuitive for some people to think that that's something that Cisco is excited about and supporting. So I wonder if you can share, you know, kind of the market is changing. How you guys air reacting and really putting the things in place t to deliver customer choice. >>Yeah, I know. It's actually to me. It's really not counterintuitive, because in the end, what what I'm focusing on and the company's focus on is what our customers want to do and need to do on. That's really, um, would you know, most people call hybrid cloud or multi cloud, Uh, in in the end, what? What? This is really the ability to have the flexibility to move your workloads where you want him to be, and they have different reasons why you want to place them right. You might have placed them for security reason. You might have placed for clients. Reason depending on which customer segment you're after. If you're in the United States or in Europe, in Asia there are a lot of different reasons we're gonna put your things. And so I think in the end, what on enterprise looks for is that agility, flexibility and resiliency. And and so really, what you want to put in place is what we call like a cloud on ramp, right? You need to have an ability to move sings as needed. But the larger context action which we see in the last couple of months accelerating, is really this whole seem around digital transformation, which goes hand in hand. Then, was the requirement on the Teesside really do? And I t operations transformation, Right? How I t operates on. I think that's really exciting to see. And this is actually where a lot off my discussions I was customers. What does it actually mean with respect to the I t organization? And what are the operational changes? There's a lot of our customers they're going through, quite frankly, accelerated going through >>right and and automation is in the title of the event. So automation is you know is an increasingly important thing. You know, as the as we know and we hear all the time, you know, the flows of data, the complexity of the data, either the on the security or the way the networks moving or, as you said, shifting workloads around based on dynamic situations. Whether that's business security, etcetera, you too suffer to find networking has been around for a while. How are you seeing kind of this evolution in and adding mawr automation, You know, to more and more processes to free up those those, um, kind of limited resource is in terms of really skilled people to focus on the things that they should be focused on and not stuff that that hopefully you can, you know, get a machine to run with some level of >>automation. Yeah, that's a good point. And they said the Tekla and a half, you know, sometimes in my mind is really going from cloud ready, which I think most of infrastructures today to cloud native. And so let me a little expand on. This right is like the cloud ready is basically what we have put in place over the last 5 to 6 years. All the infrastructure that our customers have network infrastructure or the Nexus 9000. They're all cloud ready right now, what this really means. You have a P ice everywhere, right? Whether this is on the box, whether it's on the controller, whether this is on the operations tools, all of these a p i a neighborhood. And that's just the foundation for automation, right? You have to have that now. The next step really is What do you do with that capability? And right? And this is the integration was a lot off automation tools on. That's the whole range, right? This is where the I t operation transformation kicks in. Different customers a different speed, right? Some just You know, I used these AP ice and use normal tools that they have in the network world just to pull information. Some customers go for further and saying, I want to integrate this with extensive Deb equals some go even further and saying this is like the cloud native people saying, Oh, I want to use, let's say, redhead answerable. I want to use how she called terra form and use those things to actually drive. How I manage my infrastructure. And so that's really the combination of the automation capability. Plus, the integration was relevant cloud native, enabling tools that really is happening. At this point, we're seeing customers accelerating that. That motion, which really then drives, is how they run their I t operations. And so that's a pretty exciting, exciting area to see given. As I said, we have the infrastructure in place. There is no need for customers to actually do change something most of them have already. The infrastructures that can do this is just no doing the operation change the process, changes to actually get there >>right. And it's funny we we recently covered, you know, pager duty. And they highlight which you just talked about. The cloud native, which is, you know, all of these applications now were so interdependent on all these different a p. I s, you know, pulling data from all these applications. So a when they work great, it's terrific. But if there's a problem, you know there's a whole lot of potential throats to choke out there and find. Find those issues and it's all being connected via the network. So, you know, it's even Mawr. Critically important not only for the application, but for all these little tiny components within the application to deliver. You know, ultimately a customer experience within very small units of time s so that you don't lose that customer. You complete that transaction, they check out of the shopping cart. You know, all these these things that are now created with cloud native applications that just couldn't really do before. >>No, you're absolutely right. And this, this is like I just said, I'm actually very excited because it opens up a lot off abilities for our customers how they want to actually structure the operation, right? One of the nice things around this whole automation, plus, uh, true integration closer to integration is you actually open this up. Now, this whole automation trained not just to the network operations person, right? You also open it up and can use this for the sake cups person or for the death of a person or for the cloud tops engineering team. Right? Because the way it's structured, the way we built this, um, it's literally it's an A p I interface, and you can now decide what is your process? Do you wanna have? On what? Traditional process. You have a request number. Corporation teams executes request using these tools and enhance it back over. Or you say, Hey, maybe some of these security things I'm gonna hand over the second team and it can directly call these days a p I s right or even one step further. You can have the opportunity that the death of So the application team actually says, Hey, I got to write a whole infrastructure as code kind of a script or template and I just execute right and it's really just using what the infrastructure provides. And so that whole range off different user roles in our customer base. What they can do with the automation capability that's available. It's just very, very exciting, right, because it's literally unleashes a lot of flexibility, how they want to structure and how they wanna. We built the I T operations processes. >>That's interesting, you know, because the you know, the Dev ops culture has taken over a lot. Right obviously changed software programming for the last 20 years, and and I think you know there's a There's a lot of just kind of the concept of Dev ops versus necessarily. You know, the actual things that you do to execute that technique. And I don't think most people would think of, you know, network ops or, you know, netapp. You know, whatever the equivalent is in the networking world toe have, you know, kind of a fast changing dynamic kind of point of view versus a You know, stick it in, you know, spec it, stick it in, lock it down. So I wonder if you can You can share how, you know, kind of that, Dev ops, um attitude, point of view, workflow, whatever the right verb is has impacted, you know, things that Cisco and the way you guys think about networking and flexibility within the networking world. >>Yeah, literally. Absolutely. And again, it's all customer driven, right? Is none of this. None of this is really actually, you know, a little bit of credit. Maybe some of us where we have a vision, but a lot of this just customer driven feedback. Uh, yeah, we we do have even network operations teams comes to saying, Hey, we use answerable heavily on the computer side. We might use this for for seven. We want to use the same for networking. And so we made available all these integrations with the variety of state. Whether these are the switches, whether it's our A, C and D C and controller or our Martha said orchestration capabilities, all of these has answerable integration away. All right, The other one is you mentioned how she from Cherepkov telephone. We have integrations available and they see the request for these tools to use that on DSO. That is emotion. We're in for over a year now. And another block, actually, that's out there. We're just supposed to saying you all set what you can do on then in parallel to this, right? Just making the integration available. We also have a very, very heavy focus on on definite and enablement and training on, you know, a little pluck. And I know probably part of the segment. The whole definite community that Cisco has is very, very vibrant. Uh, and the beauty off this is right. If you look at this, whether your naps person or a deaf person or seconds person, it doesn't really matter. There is a lot of like capability available to just help you get going or go from one level to the next level, right? And there's simple things like sandbox environments where you can, you know, without stress, dry things out. Snippets of code A there you could do all of these things. And so we do see, it's a kind of a push and pull a tremendous amount of interest and the tremendous, uh uh, time people spend to learn, quite frankly. And that's another side product off. You know, the situation wherein people sit home and say, Okay, online learning is the thing. So thes, thes thes tools. They're used very heavily, right? >>So that's awesome. Because, you know, we've We've had Suzy we on a number of times. And I know he and Mandy and the team, right, really built this definite thing. And it really follows along this other theme that we see consistently across other pieces of tech, which is democratization, right? Democratization to the access tool, taking it out of of just a mahogany row with again really limited number of people that know how to make it work and and could make changes in opening up to a software defined world where now that you know It's his application centric point of view where the people that are building the APS to go create competitive advantage now don't have to wait for, you know, the one network person to help him out of these environments. Really interesting. I wonder, you know, when you look at what's happened with Public Cloud and how they kind of changed the buying parameter, how they kind of changed the the the degree of difficulty to get projects started. You know how you guys have kind of integrated that that type of thought process to make it easier for app developers to get their job done? >>Yeah, I mean again, it's It's I took a look at this more from a from a customer. Answer, right? It's the transformation process, and it always starts is I want agility. I want flexibility. Anyone resiliency, right. This is where we talked to a business owner what they're looking for and then it translates into into a night operations process, right? Your strategy needs to map them. How you actually do this on that? Just tries. Then what truths do you want to have available to actually enable this right and the enablement again? is for different roles right there is. You need to give sing services to the app developer and, uh, the platform team and the security team right to your point so the network can act at the same speed. But you also give to to the network operations teams because they need thio adjust. And they have the ability to react thio to some of these requirements. Right? And it's not just automation. I think we we focused on that. But there's also to your point, the need how to extend between data sent us, you know, just just for backup and recovery. And how do I extend into public clouds? Right. Uh, in the end, that's ah, that's the network connectivity problem. And we have soft us. We have made us available. We have integrations into, uh, W s. We have integrations into azure to actually make this very easy from a from a network perspective to extend your private domains private networks into virtual private networks on on these public cloud. So from an app developer perspective, now it looks like he's on the same network. It's a protective enterprise network. Some of it might sit here, someone might sit here, but it's really looking the same. And that's really in the end. I think what what a business looks at, right? They don't necessarily want to say I need to have something separate for this deployment was separate for that deployment. What they want is I need to deploy something. E need to do this resilient in the resilient way in an enjoyable way. Give me the tools. And so that's really where we focus, Um, and what we're driving right? It's that combination of automation consistently and then definite tools available that we support. But they're all open. Uh, they're all standard tools. The ones I mentioned right that everybody is using. So you're not getting into this. Oh, this is specific to Cisco. Uh, it's really democratization. I actually like the term. Yeah, >>it's It's a great terminate, and it's it's really interesting, especially with with the A p i s and the way everything is so tight together that everyone kind of has to enable this because that's what the customers demanding. Um, and it is all about the applications and workloads, and one of those things are moving, but they don't really wanna manage that. They just wanna, you know, deliver business, benefit to their customers and respond. Thio, you know, competitive threats in the marketplace, etcetera. So it's really an interesting time for the infrastructure, you know, to really support kind of this at first point of view versus the other way around is kind of what it used to be and and enable this hyper fast development, hyper fast change and in the competitive landscape, or else you will be left behind. Um, so super important stuff. >>Yeah. No, I totally agree. And as I said, I mean, it's it's kind of interesting because we we started on the Cisco Data Center side we started. It's probably six or seven years ago, uh, when we when we named the applications centric. Clearly, a lot of these concepts evolved, but in a sense it is. That reversal of the role from the network provides something, and you used Teoh. This is what I want to do, and I need a service thinking on the networking side to explosives that can be consumed, and so that clearly is playing out and said Automation Issa Kiki Foundation that we put in place in our customers. Most of our customers this point on these on these products? Uh, they have all the capabilities there. They can literally take advantage. There's really nothing that stops them points. >>Well, it's good times for you because I'm sure you've seen all the memes in in in social Media, right? What's driving your digital transformation? Is that the CEO, the CMO or cove it? And we all know the answer to the question, so I don't think the pace of change is going to slow down any time soon. So for keeping the network up and enabling us all the get done, what we have to get done and and all the little magic that happens behind the scenes >>Yeah, I know. Thanks. Thanks for having me. And again. Yeah, if you're listening and you're wondering, how do I get started? Cisco Definite. It's the place to go. It's, you know, fantastic fantastic environment, and I highly recommend everybody roll up your sleeve and you know the best reasons you can have. >>Yeah, and we know once the physical events come back, we've been toe definite, create a bunch of times, and it's a super vibrant, super excited, really engaged community. Sharing lots of information is kind of. That's still kind of that early vibe. You know where everyone is is still really enthusiastic and really about learning and sharing information. So, you know, like this using the team were really built a great thing. And we're happy to continue to cover it. And eventually we'll be back face to face. Okay, >>look forward to that as well. >>All right, Thanks. He's Thomason. Jeff, you're watching Continuing coverage of Cisco. Definite accelerating with automation and program ability. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.

>>Hello everyone. This is Dave Vellante, and I want to welcome you to the cubes presentation of accelerating automation with dev net in this special program, we're going to explore how to accelerate digital transformation and how the global pandemic is changing the way we work and the kinds of work that we do, the cube has pulled together experts from Cisco dev net. Now dev net is essentially Cisco as code. I've said many times in the cube, but in my opinion, it's the most impressive initiative coming out of any established enterprise infrastructure company. What Cisco has done brilliantly with dev net is to create an API economy by leveraging its large infrastructure portfolio and its ecosystem. But the linchpin of dev net is the army of trained Cisco engineers, including those with the elite CC I E designation. Now dev net was conceived to train people on how to code infrastructure and develop applications in integrations. It's a platform to create new value and automation is a key to that. Creativity. Now let's kick things off with the architect of dev net senior vice president in general manager of Cisco's dev net and CX ecosystem success. Susie, we roam around the globe presenting accelerating automation with damnit brought to you by Cisco. >>Hello and welcome to the cube. I'm Sean for a year host. We've got a great conversation, a virtual event, accelerating automation with dev net, Cisco dev net. And of course we got the Cisco brain trust here, our cube alumni, Susie wee vice president, senior vice president GM, and also CTO of Cisco dev net and ecosystem success CX all that great stuff. Many Wade Lee, who's the director, senior director of dev net certifications, Eric field, director of developer advocacy, Susie Mandy, Eric. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. Great to see you, John. So we're not in first. We don't, can't be at the dev net zone. We can't be on site doing dev net creative, all the great stuff we've been doing over the past few years where virtual the cube virtual. Thanks for coming on. Uh, Susie, I gotta ask you because you know, we've been talking years ago when you started this mission and just the success you've had has been awesome, but dev net create has brought on a whole nother connective tissue to the dev net community. This is what this ties into the theme of accelerating automation with dev net, because you said to me, I think four years ago, everything should be a service or X AAS as it's called and automation plays a critical role. Um, could you please share your vision because this is really important and still only five to 10% of the enterprises have containerized things. So there's a huge growth curve coming with developing and programmability. What's your, what's your vision? >>Yeah, absolutely. I mean, what we know is that as more and more businesses are >>Coming online is, I mean, they're all online, but as they're growing into the cloud is they're growing in new areas. As we're dealing with security is everyone's dealing with the pandemic. There's so many things going on. Uh, but what happens is there's an infrastructure that all of this is built on and that infrastructure has networking. It has security, it has all of your compute and everything that's in there. And what matters is how can you take a business application and tie it to that infrastructure? How can you take, you know, customer data? How can you take business applications? How can you connect up the world securely and then be able to, you know, really satisfy everything that businesses need. And in order to do that, you know, the whole new tool that we've always talked about is that the network is programmable. The infrastructure is programmable and you don't need just apps riding on top, but now they get to use all of that power of the infrastructure to perform even better. And in order to get there, what you need to do is automate everything. You can't configure networks manually. You can't be manually figuring out policies, but you want to use that agile infrastructure in which you can really use automation. You can rise to higher level business processes and tie all of that up and down the staff by leveraging automation. >>You know, I remember a few years ago when dev net created for start a, I interviewed Todd Nightingale and we were talking about Meraki, you know, not to get in the weeds, but you know, switches and hubs and wireless. But if you look at what we were talking about, then this is kind of what's going on now. And we were just recently, I think our last physical event was a Cisco, um, uh, Europe in Barcelona before all the COVID hit. And you had this massive cloud surgeon scale happening going on, right when the pandemic hit. And even now more than ever the cloud scale, the modern apps, the momentum hasn't stopped because there's more pressure now to continue addressing more innovation at scale because the pressure to do that, um, cause the business stay alive. And to get your thoughts on, um, what's going on in your world because you were there in person now we're six months in scale is huge. >>We are. Yeah, absolutely. And what happened is as all of our customers, as businesses around the world, as we ourselves all dealt with, how do we run a business from home? You know, how do we keep people safe? How do we keep people at home and how do we work? And then it turns out, you know, business keeps rolling, but we've had to automate even more because you have to go home and then figure out how from home, can I make sure that my it infrastructure is automated out from home? Can I make sure that every employee is out there and working safely and securely, you know, things like call center workers, which had to go into physical locations and be in kind of, you know, just, you know, blocked off rooms to really be secure with their company's information. They had to work from home. >>So we had to extend business applications to people's homes, uh, in countries like, you know, well around the world, but also in India where it was actually not, you know, not, they wouldn't let, they didn't have rules to let people work from home in these areas. So then what had to do was automate everything and make sure that we could administer, you know, all of our customers could administer these systems from home. So that put extra stress on automation. It put extra stress on our customer's digital transformation and it just forced them to, you know, automate digitally, transform quicker. And they had to, because you couldn't just go into a server room and tweak your servers, you had to figure out how to automate all of that. And we're still all in that environment today. >>Now one of the hottest trends before the pandemic was observability, uh, Coobernetti's serve, uh, microservices. So those things, again, all dev ops and, you know, have you guys got some acquisitions, you about thousand eyes? Um, um, you've got a new one you just bought, um, recently port shift to raise the game in security Cooper and all these microservices. So observability super hot, but then people go work at home. As you mentioned, how do you observe, what are you observing? The network is under a huge pressure. I mean, it's crashing on people's zooms and WebExes and, uh, education, huge amount of network pressure. How are people adapting to this and the app side? How are you guys looking at the what's being programmed? What are some of the things that you're seeing with use cases around this program? Ability, challenge and observability challenges. It's a huge deal. >>Yeah, absolutely. And, um, you know, going back to Todd Nightingale, right. You know, back when we talked to Todd before he had Meraki and he had designed this simplicity, this ease of use this cloud managed, you know, doing everything from one central place and now he has Cisco's entire enterprise and cloud business. So he is now applying that at that bigger, um, at that bigger scale for Cisco and for our customers. And he is building in the observability and the dashboards and the automation and the API APIs into all of it. Um, but when we take a look at what our customers needed is again, they had to build it all in. Um, they have to build in and what happened was how your network was doing, how secure your infrastructure was, how well you could enable people to work from home and how well you could reach customers. >>All of that used to be an it conversation. It became a CEO and a board level conversation. So all of a sudden CEOs were actually calling on the heads of it and the CIO and saying, you know, how's our VPN connectivity is everybody working from home? How many people are connected and able to work and what's their productivity. So all of a sudden, all these things that were really infrastructure, it stuff became a board level conversation. And, you know, once again, at first, everybody was panicked and just figuring out how to get people working. But now what we've seen in all of our customers is that they are now building in automation and digital transformation and these architectures, and that gives them a chance to build in that observability, you know, looking for those events, the dashboards, you know, so it really has, has been fantastic to see what our customers are doing and what our partners are doing to really rise to that next level. >>Cause you know, you got to go, but real quick, um, describe what accelerating automation with dev net means. Well, you've >>Been falling, you know, we've been working together on dev net and the vision of the infrastructure programmability and everything for quite some time. And the thing that's really happened is yes, you need to automate, but yes, it takes people to do that and you need the right skill sets and the programmability. So a networker can't be a networker. A networker has to be a network automation developer. And so it is about people and it is about bringing infrastructure expertise together with software expertise and letting people rumblings are definite community has risen to this challenge. Um, people have jumped in, they've gotten their certifications. We have thousands of people getting certified. Uh, you know, we have, you know, Cisco getting certified. We have individuals, we have partners, you know, they're just really rising to the occasion. So accelerate, accelerating automation while it is about going digital. It's also about people rising to the level of, you know, being able to put infrastructure and software expertise together to enable this next chapter of business applications of, you know, cloud directed businesses and cloud growth. So it actually is about people just as much as it is about automation and technology. >>We got dev net created right around the corner, virtual unfortunate won't be in person, but we'll be virtual. Susie. Thank you for your time. We're going to dig into those people, challenges with Mandy and Eric. Thank you for coming on. I know you've got to go, but stay with us. We're going to dig in with Mandy and Eric. >>Thanks. Thank you so much. Have fun. Thanks John. >>Okay. Mandy, you heard, uh, Susie is about people and one of the things that's close to your heart and you've been driving is, uh, as senior director of dev net certifications, um, is getting people leveled up. I mean the demand for skills, cybersecurity network, programmability automation, network design solution architect, cloud multicloud design. These are new skills that are needed. Can you give us the update on what you're doing to help people get into the acceleration of automation game? >>Oh yes, absolutely. The, you know, what we've been seeing is a lot of those business drivers that Susie was mentioning, those are, what's accelerating a lot of the technology changes and that's creating new job roles or new needs on existing job roles where they need new skills. We are seeing customers, partners, people in our community really starting to look at, you know, things like DevSecOps engineer, network, automation, engineer, network, automation, developer, which Susie mentioned and looking at how these fit into their organization, the problems that they solve in their organization. And then how do people build the skills to be able to take on these new job roles or add that job role to their current scope and broaden out and take on new challenges. >>Eric, I want to go to you for a quick second on this, um, um, piece of getting the certifications. Um, first, before you get started, describe what your role is as director developer advocacy, because that's always changing and evolving. What's the state of it now because with COVID people are working at home, they have more time to contact, switch and get some certifications and that they can code more. What's your >>Absolutely. So it's interesting. It definitely is changing a lot. A lot of our historically a lot of focus for my team has been on those outward events. So going to the Devin that creates the Cisco lives and helping the community connect and to help share tech mountain technical information with them, um, doing hands on workshops and really getting people into how do you really start solving these problems? Um, so that's had to pivot quite a bit. Um, obviously Cisco live us. We pivoted very quickly to a virtual event when, when conditions changed and we're able to actually connect as we found out with a much larger audience. So, you know, as opposed to in person where you're bound by the parameters of, you know, how big the convention center is, uh, we were actually able to reach a worldwide audience with our, uh, our definite data that was kind of attached on to Cisco live. >>And we got great feedback from the audience that now we were actually able to get that same enablement out to so many more people that otherwise might not have been able to make it. Um, but to your broader question of, you know, what my team does. So that's one piece of it is getting that information out to the community. So as part of that, there's a lot of other things we do as well. We were always helping out build new sandboxes and your learning labs, things like that, that they can come and get whenever they're looking for it out on a dev net site. And then my team also looks after communities such as the Cisco learning network where this there's a huge community that has historically been there to support people working on their Cisco certifications. We've seen a huge shift now in that group, that all of the people that have been there for years are now looking at the domain certifications and helping other people that are trying to get on board with programmability. They're taking a lot of those same community enablement skills and propping up the community with, you know, helping you answer questions, helping provide content. They've moved now into the dump space as well, and are helping people with that service or what it's great seeing the community come along and really see that. Okay. >>I ask you on the trends around automation, what skills and what developer patterns are you seeing with automation? Are, is there anything in particular, obviously network automation has been around for a long time. Cisco has been leader in that, but as you move up, the stack as modern applications are building, do you see any patterns or trends around what is accelerating automation? What are people learning? >>Yeah, absolutely. So you mentioned a observability was big before COVID and we actually really saw that amplified during COVID. So a lot of people have come to us looking for insights. How can I get that better observability, uh, now that we need it? Well, we're virtual. Um, so that's actually been a huge uptake and we've seen a lot of people that weren't necessarily out looking for things before that are now figuring out how can I do this at scale? I think one good example that, uh, Susie was talking about the VPN example, and we actually had a number SES in the Cisco community that had customers dealing with that very thing where they very quickly had to ramp up. And one in particular actually wrote a bunch of automation to go out and measure all of the different parameters that it departments might care about, about their firewalls, things that you do normally look at me old days, you would size your firewalls based on, you know, assuming a certain number of people working from home. >>And when that number went to a hundred percent things like licenses started coming into play, where they needed to make sure they have the right capacity in their platforms that they weren't necessarily designed for. So one of the STDs actually wrote a bunch of code to go out, use some open source tooling, to monitor and alert on these things and then published it. So the whole community code could go out and get a copy of it, try it out their own environment. And we saw a lot of interest around that in trying to figure out, okay, now I can take that and I can adapt it to what I need to see for my observability. >>That's great. Mandy. I want to get your thoughts on this too, because as automation continues to scale, um, it's going to be a focus and people are at home and you guys had a lot of content online for you recorded every session that didn't the dev Ned zone learnings going on, sometimes linearly. And nonlinearly you got the certifications, which is great. That's key, key, great success there. People are interested, but what are the learnings? Are you seeing? What are people doing? What's the top top trends. >>Yeah. So what we're seeing is like you said, people are at home, they've got time. They want to advance their skillset. And just like any kind of learning people want choice because they want to be able to choose what's matches their time that's available and their learning style. So we're seeing some people who want to dive into full online study groups with mentors, leading them through a study plan. And we have two new, uh, expert led study groups like that. We're also seeing whole teams at different companies who want to do, uh, an immersive learning experience together, uh, with projects and office hours and things like that. And we have a new, um, offer that we've been putting together for people who want those kinds of team experiences called automation boot camp. And then we're also seeing individuals who want to be able to, you know, dive into a topic, do a hands on lab, get some skills, go to the rest of the day of do their work and then come back the next day. >>And so we have really modular self-driven hands on learning through the dev net fundamentals course, which is available through dev net. And then there's also people who are saying, I just want to use the technology. I like to experiment and then go, you know, read the instructions, read the manual, do the deeper learning. And so they're, they're spending a lot of time in our dev net sandbox, trying out different technologies, Cisco technologies with open source technologies, getting hands on and building things. And three areas where we're seeing a lot of interest in specific technologies. One is around SD wan. There's a huge interest in people skilling up there because of all the reasons that we've been talking about security is a focus area where people are dealing with new, new kinds of threats, having to deal with them in new ways and then automating their data center, using infrastructure as code type principles. So those are three areas where we're seeing a lot of interest and you'll be hearing some more about that at dev net create >>Eric and Mandy. If you guys can wrap up this accelerate automation with dev net package and a virtual event here, um, and also tee up dev net create because dev net create has been a very kind of grassroots, organically building momentum over the years. And again, it's super important cause it's now the app world coming together with networking, you know, end to end programmability and with everything as a service that you guys are doing everything with API APIs, I'm only can imagine the enablement that's gonna create. Can you share the summary real quick on accelerating automation with dev net and tee up dev net create Mandy, we'll start with you. >>Yes, I'll go first. And then Eric can close this out. Um, so just like we've been talking about with you at every Devin event over the past years, you know, damnit is bringing APIs across our whole portfolio and up and down the stack and accelerating, uh, automation with dev net. Susie mentioned the people aspect of that the people's skilling up and how that transformed teams, transforms teams. And I think that it's all connected in how businesses are being pushed on their transformation because of current events. That's also a great opportunity for people to advance their careers and take advantage of some of that quickly changing landscape. And so what I think about accelerating automation with dev net, it's about the Duveneck community. It's about people getting those new skills and all the creativity and problem solving that will be unleashed by that community. With those new skills. >>Eric take us home. He accelerating automation, dev net and dev net create a lot of developer action going on in cloud native right now, your thoughts? >>Absolutely. I think it's exciting. I mentioned the transition to virtual for Devin that day, this year for Cisco live. And we're seeing, we're able to leverage it even further with create this year. So, whereas it used to be, you know, confined by the walls that we were within for the event. Now we're actually able to do things like we're adding the start now track for people that want to be there. They want to be a developer, a network automation developer, for instance, we've now got attract just for them where they can get started and start learning. Some of the skills they'll need, even if some of the other technical sessions were a little bit deeper than what they were ready for. Um, so I love that we're able to bring that together with the experienced community that we usually do from across the industry, bringing us all kinds of innovative talks, talking about ways that they're leveraging technology, leveraging the cloud, to do new and interesting things to solve their business challenges. So I'm really excited to bring that whole mix together, as well as getting some of our business units together too, and talk straight from their engineering departments. What are they doing? What are they seeing? What are they thinking about when they're building new APIs into their platforms? What are the, what problems are they hoping >>That customers will be able to solve with them? So I think together seeing all of that and then bringing the community together from all of our usual channels. So like I said, Cisco learning network, we've got a ton of community coming together, sharing their ideas and helping each other grow those skills. I see nothing but acceleration ahead of us for automation. >>Awesome. Thanks so much. >>Can I add one, add one more thing? Yeah. I was just gonna say the other really exciting thing about create this year with the virtual nature of it is that it's happening in three regions. And, um, you know, we're so excited to see the people joining from all the different regions and, uh, content and speakers and the region stepping up to have things personalized to their area, to their community. And so that's a whole new experience for them that create that's going to be fantastic this year. >>Yeah. That's what I was going to close out and just put the final bow on that. By saying that you guys have always been successful with great content focused on the people in the community. I think now during what this virtual dev net virtual dev net create virtual, the cube virtual, I think we're learning new things. People working in teams and groups and sharing content, we're going to learn new things. We're going to try new things and ultimately people will rise up and we'll be resilient. I think when you have this kind of opportunity, it's really fun. And we'll, we'll, we'll ride the wave with you guys. So thank you so much for taking the time to come on the cube and talk about your awesome accelerating automation and dev net. Great. Looking forward to it. Thank you. >>Thank you so much. Happy to be here. >>Okay. I'm Jennifer with the cube virtual here in Palo Alto studios doing the remote content amendment virtual tour face to face. Thank you so much for watching and we'll see you at dev net create thanks for watching. >>Welcome back. And Jeffrey, >>The cube coming to you from our Palo Alto studio with ongoing coverage of the Cisco dev data van, it's called accelerating automation with dev net and the new normal. And we certainly know the new normal is, is not going away. They've been doing this since the middle of March or all the way to October. And so we're excited to have our next guest is Thomas Shively. He's the vice president of product marketing and data center networking for the intent based networking group at Cisco Thomas. Great to see you. >>Hey, good to see you too. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody can see on our background. Exactly, >>Exactly. So, I mean, I'm curious, we've talked to a lot of people. We talked to a lot of leaders, you know, especially like back in March and April with this light switch moment, which was, you know, no time to prep and suddenly everybody has to work from home. Teachers got to teach from home. And so you got the kids home, you got the spouse home, everybody's home trying to get on the network and do their zoom calls in their classes. I'm curious from your perspective, you guys are right there on the, on the network you're right in the infrastructure. What did you hear and see kind of from your customers when suddenly, you know, March 16 hit and everybody had to go home. >>Wow, good point. Hey, I do think we all appreciate the network >>Much more than we used to do before. Uh, and then the only other difference is I'm really more on WebEx calls and zoom calls, but, you know, otherwise, uh, yes. Um, what, what I do see actually is that as I said, network becomes much more operative as a critical piece. And so before we really talked a lot about, uh, agility and flexibility these days, we talk much more about resiliency quite frankly. Uh, and what do I need to have in place with respect to network to get my things from left to right. And you know, it, 2000 East to West, as we say on the data center. Right. Uh, and that just is for most of my customers, a very, very important topic at this point. >>Right. You know, it's, it's amazing to think, you know, had this happened, you know, five years ago, 10 years ago, you know, the ability for so many people in, in, in the information industry to be able to actually make that transition relatively seamlessly, uh, is, is actually pretty amazing. I'm sure there was some, some excitement and some kudos in terms of, you know, it, it is all based on the network and it is kind of this quiet thing in the background that nobody pays attention to. It's like a ref in the football game until they make a bad play. So, you know, it, it is pretty fascinating that you and your colleagues have put this infrastructure and that enabled us to really make that move with, with, with really no prep, no planning and actually have a whole lot of services delivered into our homes that we're used to getting at the office are used to getting at school. >>Yeah. And I mean, to your point, I mean, some of us did some planning, can we clearly talking about some of these, these trends and the way I look at this trans as being distributed data centers and, um, having the ability to move your workloads and access for users to wherever you want to be. And so I think that clearly went on for a while then. So in a sense, we, we, we prep was, or no, but we're prepping for it. Um, but as I said, resiliency just became so much more important than, you know, one of the things I actually do a little block, a little, little, uh, abrupt before a block I put out end of August around resiliency. Uh, you, you, if he didn't, if he didn't put this in place, you better put it in place. Because I think as we all know, we sold our match. This is like maybe two or three months, we're now in October. Um, and I sing, this is the new normal for some time being. Yeah, >>I think so. So let's stick on that theme in terms of, of trends, right? The other great, uh, trend as public cloud, um, and hybrid cloud and multi cloud, there's all types of variants on that theme you had in that blog post about, uh, resiliency in data center, cloud networking, data center cloud, you know, some people think, wait, it's, it's kind of an either, or I either got my data center or I've got my stuff in the cloud and I've got public cloud. And then as I said, hybrid cloud, you're talking really specifically about enabling, um, both inner inner data center resiliency within multi data centers within the same enterprise, as well as connecting to the cloud. That's probably counterintuitive for some people to think that that's something that Cisco is excited about and supporting. So I wonder if you can share, you know, kind of how the market is changing, how you guys are reacting and really putting the things in place to deliver customer choice. >>Yeah, no, it's actually, to me, it's really not a counterintuitive because in the end was what, uh, I'm focusing on. And the company is focused on is what our customers want to do and need to do. Uh, and that's really, um, would, you know, most people call hybrid cloud or multi-cloud, uh, in, in the end, what it is, what it is, is really the ability to have the flexibility to move your workloads where you want them to be. And there are different reasons why you want to place them, right? You might've placed them for security reasons. You might have played some compliance reasons, depending on which customer segment you after, if you're in the United States or in Europe or in Asia, there are a lot of different reasons where you're going to put your sinks. And so I sing in the end, what a, an enterprise looks for is that agility, flexibility, and resiliency. >>And so really what you want to put in place is what we call like the cloud on ramp, right? You need to have an ability to move sings as needed. But the logic context section, which we see in the last couple of months, accelerating is really this whole seam around digital transformation, uh, which goes hand in hand then was, uh, the requirement on the at T side really do. And I T operations transformation, right. How it operates. Uh, and I think that's really exciting to see, and this is where a lot of my discussions I was customers, uh, what does it actually mean with respect to the it organization and what are the operational changes? This a lot of our customers are going through quite frankly, accelerated right. Going through, >>Right. And, and automation is in the title of the event. So automation is, you know, is an increasingly important thing, you know, as the, as we know, and we hear all the time, you know, the flows of data, the complexity of the data, either on the security or the way the network's moving, or as you said, shifting workloads around, based on the dynamic situations, whether that's business security, et cetera, in a software defined networking has been around for a while. How are you seeing kind of this evolution in adding more automation, you know, to more and more processes to free up those, those, um, no kind of limited resources in terms of really skilled people to focus on the things that they should be focused on and not stuff that, that hopefully you can, you know, get a machine to run with some level of. >>Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. And I said the tech line, I have, you know, sometimes when my mind is really going from a cloud ready, which is in most of our infrastructure is today to cloud native. And so let me a little expand on those, right? There's like the cloud ready is basically what we have put in place over the last five to six years, all the infrastructure that all our customers have, network infrastructure, all the nexus 9,000, they're all cloud ready. Right. And what this really means, do you have API APIs everywhere, right? Whether this is on the box, whether it's on the controller, whether this is on the operations tools, all of these are API enabled and that's just the foundation for automation, right? You have to have that. Now, the next step really is what do you do with that capability? >>Right? And this is the integration with a lot of automation tools, uh, and that's a whole range, right? And this is where the it operation transformation kicks in different customers at different speeds, right? Some just, you know, I use these API APIs and use NoMo tools that they have on a network world just to pull information. Some customers go for further and saying, I want to integrate this with some CMDB tools. Some go even further and saying, this is like the cloud native pleasing, Oh, I want to use, let's say red hat Ansible. I want to use, uh, how she called Terraform and use those things to actually drive how I manage my infrastructure. And so that's really the combination of the automation capability. Plus the integration with relevant cloud native enabling tools that really is happening at this point. We're seeing customers accelerating that, that motion, which really then drives us how they run their it operations. Right? And so that's a pretty exciting, exciting area to see a given. I, we have the infrastructure in place. There's no need for customers to actually do change something. Most of them have already the infrastructures that can do this. It is just no doing the operational change. The process changes to actually get there. >>Right. And it's funny, we, we recently covered, you know, PagerDuty and, and they highlight what you just talked about. The cloud native, which is, you know, all of these applications now are so interdependent on all these different API APIs, you know, pulling data from all of these applications. So a, when they work great, it's terrific. But if there's a problem, you know, there's a whole lot of potential throat to choke out there and find, find those issues. And it's all being connected via the network. So, you know, it's even more critically important, not only for the application, but for all these little tiny components within the application to deliver, you know, ultimately a customer experience within a very small units of time, uh, so that you don't lose that customer. You, you complete that transaction. They, they check out of their shopping cart. You know, all these, these things that are now created with cloud native applications that just couldn't really do before. >>No, you're absolutely right. And that's, this is like, just sit. I'm actually very excited because it opens up a lot of abilities for our customers, how they want to actually structure the operation. Right? One of the nice things around this or automation plus, uh, tool integration, cloning to, and integration is you actually opened this up, not a soul automation train, not just to the network operations personnel, right. You also open it up and can use this for the second ops person or for the dev ops person or for the cloud ops engineering team. Right. Because the way it's structured, the way we built this, um, is literally as an API interface and you can now decide, what is your process do you want to have? And what traditional, you have a request network, operation teams executes the request using these tools and then hand it back over. >>Or do you say, Hey, maybe some of these security things I got to hand over the sec ups team, and they can directly call these these KPIs, right? Or even one step further, you can have the opportunity that the dev ops or the application team actually says, Hey, I got to write a whole infrastructure as code kind of a script or template, and I just execute. Right. And it's really just using what the infrastructure provides. And so that whole range of different user roles and our customer base, what they can do with the automation capability that's available. It's just very, very exciting way because it's literally unleashes a lot of flexibility, how they want to structure and how they want to rebuild the it operations processes. >>That's interesting, you know, cause the, you know, the DevOps culture has taken over a lot, right. Obviously change software programming for the last 20 years. And I think, you know, there's a, there's a lot of just kind of the concept of dev ops versus necessarily, you know, the actual things that you do to execute that technique. And I don't think most people would think of, you know, network ops or, you know, net ops, you know, whatever the equivalent is in the networking world to have, you know, kind of a fast changing dynamic, uh, kind of point of view versus a, you know, stick it in, you know, spec it, stick it in, lock it down. So I wonder if you can, you can share how, you know, kind of that dev ops, um, attitude point of view, workflow, whatever the right verb is, has impacted, you know, things at Cisco and the way you guys think about networking and flexibility within the networking world. >>Yeah, literally, absolutely. And again, it's all customer driven, right? There's none of those. None of those is really actually, you know, a little bit of credit, maybe some of us where we have a vision, but a lot of it is just customer driven feedback. Uh, and yeah, we, we do have network operations teams comes to saying, Hey, we use Ansible heavily on the compute side, we might use this for alpha seven. We want to use the same for networking. And so we made available all these integrations, uh, with sobriety as a state, whether these are the switches, whether these are ACI decent, a controller or our multicell orchestration capabilities, all of these has Ansible integration the way to the right. Uh, the other one, as I mentioned, that how she formed Turco Terraform, we have integrations available and they see the requests for these tools to use that. >>Uh, and so that is emotion where in for all the, you know, and, uh, another block actually does out there, we just posted saying, Neil, all set what you can do and then a Palo to this, right. Just making the integration available. We also have a very, very heavy focus on definite and enablement and training, uh, and you know, a little plugin. I know, uh, probably, uh, part of the segment, the whole definite community that Cisco has is very, very vibrant. Uh, and the beauty of this is right. If you look at us, whether you're a NetApps person or dev ops person or SecOps person, it doesn't really matter. It has a lot of like capability available to just help you get going or go from one level to the next level. Right. And it's simplest thing that like sent books and why moments where you can, we know what's out stress, try sinks out snippets of code Coda there, you can do all of these things. And so we do see it's a kind of a push and pull a tremendous amount of interest and a tremendous, uh, uh, time people spend to learn quite frankly. And that's another site product of, of, you know, the situation we're in and people said, Oh man, and say, okay, online learning, that's the thing. So these, these, these tools are used very, very heavily. Right, >>Right. That's awesome. Cause you know, we've, we've had Susie Lee on a number of times and I know he and Mandy and the team really built this dev net thing. And it really follows along this other theme that we see consistently across other pieces of tech, which is democratization, right. Democratization of the access tool, taking it out of, of just a mahogany row with, again, a really limited number of people that know how to make it work and can make the changes and then opening up to a software defined world where now that the, you know, the, it says application centric, point of view, where the people that are building the apps to go create competitive advantage. Now don't have to wait for, you know, the one network person to help them out out of these environments. Really interesting. And I wonder if, you know, when you look at what's happening with public cloud and how they kind of change the buying parameter, how they kind of changed the degree of difficulty to get projects started, you know, how you guys have kind of integrated that, that type of thought process to make it easier for app developers to get their job done. >>Yeah. I mean, again, it's, it's, uh, I typically look at this more from a, from a customer lands, right? It's the transformation process and it always starts as I want agility. I want flexibility. I want to resiliency, right. This is where we talk to a business owner, what they're looking for. And then that translates into, into an I operations process, right? Your strategy needs to map then how you actually do this. Uh, and that just drives then what tools do you want to have available to actually enable this? Right. And the enablement again is for different roles, right? There is you need to give sync services to the app developer and, uh, the, the platform team and the security team, right. To your point. So the network, uh, can act at the same speed, but you also give to us to the network operations teams because they need to, uh, adjust. >>Then they have the ability to react to, uh, to some of these requirements. Right. And it's not just automation. I say, we, we, we focused on that, but there's also to your point, the, the need, how do I extend between data centers? You know, just, just for backup and recovery and how do I extend into, into public clouds, right? Uh, and in the end, that's a, that's a network connectivity problem. Uh, and we have soft as, uh, we have made as available. We have integrations into, uh, AWS. We have integrations into a joy to actually make this very easy from a, from a network perspective to extend your private, private networks into which of private networks on these public clouds. So from an app development perspective, now it looks like he's on the same network. It's a protective enterprise network. Some of it might sit here. >>Some of it might sit here, but it's really looking the same. And that's really in the enticing, what a business looks at, right. They don't necessarily want to say, I need to have something separate for this deployment. What's a separate for that deployment. What they want is I need to deploy something. I need to do this resilient. And the resilient way in an agile way gives me the tools. And so that's really where we focused, um, and what we're driving, right? It's that combination of automation consistently, and then definite tools, uh, available that we support. Uh, but they're all open. Uh, they're all standard tools as the ones I mentioned, right. That everybody's using. So I'm not getting into this. Oh, this is specific to Cisco, right. It's really democratisation. I actually liked your term. Yeah. >>Yeah. It's, it's a great terminate. And it's, it's really interesting, especially with, with the API APIs and the way everything is so tied together that everyone kind of has to enable this because that's what the customer is demanding. Um, and it is all about the applications and the workloads and where those things are moving, but they don't really want to manage that. They just want to, you know, deliver business benefit to their customers and respond to, uh, you know, competitive threats in the marketplace, et cetera. So it's really an interesting time for the infrastructure, you know, to really support kind of this app first point of view, uh, versus the other way around is kind of what it used to be and, and enable this hyper fast development hyper fast, uh, change in, in, in the competitive landscape or else you will be left behind. Um, so super important stuff. >>Yeah, no, I totally agree. And as I said, I mean, it's, it's kind of interesting is we, we started on the Cisco data center side. We started this probably six or seven years ago. Uh, when we, when we named the application centric, uh, clearly a lot of these concepts evolve, uh, but in a sense it is that reversal of the role from the network provides something and you use to, uh, this is what I want to do. And I need a service, uh, thinking on a networking side to expose. So as that can be consumed. And so that clearly is playing out. Um, and as I said, automation is a key key foundation that we put in place, uh, and our customers, most of our customers at this point, uh, on these, on these products, uh, they have all the capabilities they are, they can literally take advantage. There's really nothing that stops them point. >>Well, it's good times for you because I'm sure you've seen all the memes and in social media, right. What what's driving your digital transformation is that the CEO, the CMO or COVID, and we all know the answer to the question. So I don't think the, the pace of change is going to slow down anytime soon. So keeping the network up and enabling us all to get done, what we have to get done and all the little magic that happens behind the scenes. >>Yeah. No thanks. Thanks for having me. And again, yeah. If you're listening and you're wondering, how do I get started Cisco? Definitely just the place to go. It's fantastic. Fantastic. I highly recommend everybody roll up his sleeves and you know, the best races you can have. >>And we know once the physical events come back, we've been to dev net create a bunch of times, and it's a super vibrant, super excited, but really engaged community sharing. Lots of information is kind of, it's still kind of that early vibe, you know, where everyone is still really enthusiastic and really about learning and sharing information. So, you know, like say Susie and the team are really built a great thing, and we're a, we're happy to continue to cover it. And eventually we'll be back, uh, face to face. I look forward to that as well. All right, thanks. Uh, he's Thomas I'm Jeff, you're watching continuing coverage of Cisco dev net accelerating with automation and programmability >>Kia. Nini is here. He's a distinguished engineer at Cisco TK, my friend. Good to see you again. How are you? Good. I mean, you and I were in Barcelona in January and, you know, we knew we saw this thing coming, but we didn't see it coming this way. Did we know that no one did, but yeah, that was right before everything happened. Well, it's weird. Right? I mean, we were, you know, we, we, it was in the back of our minds in January, we sort of had Barcelona's hasn't really been hit yet. It looked like it was really isolated in China, but, uh, but wow, what a change and I guess, I guess I'd say I'd start with the, we're seeing really a secular change in, in your space and security identity, access management, cloud security, endpoint security. I mean, all of a sudden these things explode as the work from home pivot has occurred, and it feels like these changes are permanent or semi-permanent, what are you seeing out there? >>I don't think anybody thinks the world's going to go back the way it was. Um, to some degree it's, it's changed forever. Um, you know, I, I, I do a lot of my work remotely. Um, and, and so, you know, being a remote worker, isn't such a big deal for me, but for some, it was a huge impact. And like I said, you know, um, remote education, you know, everybody's on the opposite side of a computer. And so the digital infrastructure has just become a lot more important to protect the integrity of it essentially is almost our own integrity these days. Yeah. And when you see that, you know, that work from home pivot, I mean, you know, our estimates are, or along with our partner, DTR about 16% of the workforce was at home working from home prior to COVID and now it's know, North of 70% >>Plus, and that's going to come down maybe a little bit over the next, next six months. We'll see what happens with the fall surge, but, but people essentially accept, expect that to at least double that 16%, you know, going forward indefinitely. So how, what does that, what kind of pressure does that put on the security infrastructure and how, how organizations are approaching security? >>Yeah, I, I just think, uh, from a mindset standpoint, you know, what was optional, uh, maybe, um, last year, uh, is no longer optional and I don't think it's going to go back. Um, I think, I think a lot of people, uh, have changed the way, you know, they live and the way they work. Um, and they're doing it in ways, hopefully that, you know, in some cases, uh, yield more productivity, um, again, um, you know, usually with technology that's severely effective, it doesn't pick sides. So the security slant to it is it frankly works just as well for the bad guys. And so that's, that's the balance we need to keep, which is we need to be extra diligent, uh, on how we go about securing infrastructure, uh, how we go about securing even our, our social channels, because remember all our social channels now are digital. So that's, that's become the new norm. >>You know, you've helped me understand over the years. I remember a line you shared with me in the cube one time is that the adversary is highly capable as sort of the, of the phrase that you used. And, and essentially the way you describe it, as you know, your job as a security practitioner is to decrease the bad guy's return on investment, you know, increase their costs, increase the numerator, but as, as work shifts from home, yeah, I'm in my house, you know, my wifi in my, you know, router with my, you know, dog's name is the password, you know, it's much, much harder for me to, to increase that denominator at home. So can you help? >>Yeah. I mean, it's, it is, it is truly, um, when you think, when you get into the mind of the adversary and, and, uh, you know, the cyber crime out there, they're honestly just like any other business they're trying to operate with high margin. And so if you can get there, if you can get in there and erode their margin, frankly go find something else to do. Um, and, and again, you know, you know, the shift we experienced day to day is it's not just our kids are online in school and, uh, our work is online, but all of the groceries we order, um, you know, this Thanksgiving and holiday season, uh, a lot more online shopping is going to place. So everything's gone digital. And so the question is, you know, how, how do we up our game there so that we can go about our business, uh, effectively. And I make it very expensive for the adversary to operate, uh, and take care of their business. Cause it's nasty stuff. >>I want to ask you about automation generally, and then specifically how it applies to security. So we, I mean, we certainly saw the ascendancy of the hyperscalers and of course they really attacked the it labor problem. We learned a lot from that and an it organizations have applied much of that thinking. And it's critical at scale. I mean, you just can't scale humans at the pace, the technology scales today, how does that apply to security and specifically, how is automation affecting security? >>Yeah, it's, it's, it's the topic these days. Um, you know, businesses, I think, realize that they can't continue to grow at human scale. And so the reason why automation and things like AI and machine learning have a lot of value is because everyone's trying to expand, uh, and operate at machine scale. Now, I mean that for, for businesses, I mean that for, you know, education and everything else now, so are the adversaries, right? So it's expensive for them to operate at Cuban scale and they are going to machine scale, going to machine scale, uh, a necessity is that you're going to have to harness some level of automation, have the machines, uh, work on your behalf, have the machines carry your intent. Um, and when you do that, um, you can do it safely or you could do it dangerously. And that that's really kind of your choice. Um, you know, just because you can automate something doesn't mean you should, um, you, you wanna make sure that frankly, the adversary can't get in there and use that automation on their behalf. So it's, it's a tricky thing because, you know, if, when you take the phrase, you know, uh, how do we, how do we automate security? Well, you actually have to, uh, take care of, of securing the automation first. >>Yeah. We talked about this in Barcelona, where you were explaining that, you know, the, the bad guys, the adversaries are essentially, you know, weaponizing using your own tooling, which makes them appear safe because it's, they're hiding in plain sight. >>Well, there's, they're clever, uh, give them that, um, you know, that there's this phrase that they, they always talk about called living off the land. Um, there's no sense in them coming into your network and bringing their tools and, uh, and being detective, you know, if they can use the tools that's already there, then, uh, they have a higher degree of, of evading, uh, your protection. If they can pose as Alice or Bob, who's already been credentialed and move around your network, then they're moving around the network as Alice or Bob. They're not marked as the adversary. So again, you know, having the detection methods available to find their behavior anomalies and things like that become a paramount, but also, you know, having the automation to contain them, to eradicate them, to, you know, minimize their effectiveness, um, without it, I mean, ideally without human interaction, cause you, you just, can you move faster, you move quicker. Um, and I, I see that with an asterisk because, um, if, if done wrong, frankly, um, you're just making their job more effective. >>I wonder if we could talk about the market a little bit, uh, it's I'm in the security space, cybersecurity 80 plus billion, which by the way, is just a little infant Tessa mill component of our GDP. So we're not spending nearly enough to protect that massive, uh, GDP, but guys, I wonder if you could bring up the chart because when you talk to CSOs and you ask them, what's your, what's your biggest challenge? Let's say lack of talent. And, and so what this chart shows is from ETR, our, our, our survey partner and on the vertical axis is net score. And that's an indication of spending momentum on the horizontal axis is market share, which is a measure of presence, a pervasiveness, if you will, inside the data sets. And so there's a couple of key points here. I wanted to put forth to our audience and then get your reactions. >>So you can see Cisco, I highlighted in red, Cisco is business and security is very, very strong. We see it every quarter. It's a growth area that Chuck Robbins talks about on the, on the conference call. And so you can see on the horizontal axis, you've got, you know, big presence in the data set. I mean, Microsoft is out there, but they're everywhere, but you're right there in that, in that data set. And then you've got for such a large presence, you've got a lot of momentum in the marketplace, so that's very impressive. But the other point here is you've got this huge buffet of options. There's just a zillion vendors here. And that just adds to the complexity. This is of course only a subset of what's in the security space. You know, the people who answered for the survey. So my question is how can Cisco help simplify this picture? Is it automation? Is it, you know, you guys have done some really interesting tuck in acquisitions and you're bringing that integration together. Can you talk about that a little bit? >>Yeah. I mean, that's an impressive chart. I mean, when you look to the left there it's, um, I had a customer tell me once that, you know, I came to this trade show, looking for transportation, and these people are trying to sell me car parts. Um, that's the frustration customers have, you know, and I think what Cisco has done really well is to really focus on the outcomes. Um, what is the customer outcome? Cause ultimately that's, that is what the customer wants. You know, there might be a few steps to get to that outcome, but the closest you can closer, you can get to delivering outcomes for the customer, the better you are. And I think, I think security in general has just year over year have been just written with, um, you need to be an expert. Um, you need to buy all these parts and put it together yourself. And, and I think, I think those days are behind us, but particularly as, as security becomes more pervasive and we're, you know, we're selling to the business, we're not selling to the, you know, t-shirt wearing hacker anymore. >>Yeah. So, well, well, how does cloud fit in here? Because I think there's a lot of misconceptions about cloud people that God put my data in the cloud I'm safe, but you know, of course we know it's a shared responsibility model. So I'm interested in your, your thoughts on that. Is it really, is it a sense of complacency? A lot of the cloud vendors, by the way, say, Oh, the state of security is great in the cloud. Whereas many of us out there saying, wow, it's, it's not so great. Uh, so what are your thoughts on that, that whole narrative and what Cisco's play in, in cloud? >>I think cloud, um, when you look at the services that are delivered via the cloud, you see that exact pattern, which is you see customers paying for the outcome or as close to the outcome as possible. Um, you know, no, no data center required, no disk drive required, you just get storage, you know, it's, it's, it's all of those things that are again, closer to the outcome. I think the thing that interests me about cloud two is it's really been, it's really punctuated the way we go about building systems. Um, again, at machine scale. So, you know, before, when I write code and I think about what computers are gonna run on, or, you know, what servers are going to is you're going to run on those. Those thoughts never crossed my mind anymore. You know, I'm modeling the intent of what the service should do and the machines then figure it out. So, you know, for instance, on Tuesday, if the entire internet shows up, uh, the, the system works without fail. And if on Wednesday, if only North America shows up, you know, so what, but, but there's no way you could staff that, right? There's just no human scale approach that gets you there. And that's, that's the beauty of all of this cloud stuff is, um, it really is, uh, the next level of how we computer science. >>So you're talking about infrastructure as code and that applies to, you know, security as code. That's what, you know, dev net is really all about. I've said many times, I think Cisco of the, the large established enterprise companies is one of the few, if not the only, that really has figured out, you know, that developer angle, because it's practical do, you're not trying to force your way into developers, but, you know, I wonder if you could, you could talk a little bit about that trend and where you see it going. >>Yeah, no, that is, that is truly the trend. Every time I walk into dev net, um, the big halls at Cisco live, it is Cisco as code. Um, everything about Cisco is being presented through an API. It is automation ready. And, and frankly, that is, um, that is the love language of the cloud. Um, it's it's machines, if the machines talking to machines in very effective ways. So, you know, it is the, the, uh, I, I think, I think necessary, maybe not sufficient but necessary for, um, you know, doing all the machine scale stuff. What what's also necessary, uh, is to, um, to secure if, if infrastructure is code therefore, um, what, what secure, uh, what security methodologies do we have today that we use to secure code while we have automated testing, we have threat modeling, right? Those things actually have to be now applied to infrastructure. So when I, when I talk about how do you do, uh, automation securely, you do it the same way you secure your code, you test it, you, you threaten model, you, you, you say, you know, Ken, my adversary, uh, exhibit something here that drives the automation in a way that I didn't intend it to go. Um, so all of those practices apply. It's just, everything is code these days. >>I've often said that security and privacy are sort of two sides of the same coin. And I want to ask you a question and it's really, to me, it's not necessarily Cisco and company likes companies like Cisco's responsibility, but I wonder if there's a way in which you can help. And of course, there's this Netflix documentary circling around the social dilemma. I don't know if you have a chance to see it, but basically dramatize is the way in which companies are appropriating our data to sell us ads and, you know, creating our own little set of facts, et cetera. And that comes down to sort of how we think about privacy and admin. It's good from the standpoint of awareness, you know, you may or may not care if you're a social media user. I love tick doc. I don't care, but they sort of laid out this pretty scary scenario with a lot of the inventors of those technologies. You have any thoughts on that? And you'll consist go play a role there in terms of protecting our privacy mean beyond GDPR and California consumer privacy act. Um, what do you think? >>Yeah. Um, uh, I'll give you my, you know, my humble opinion is you, you fix social problems with social tools, you fixed technology problems with technology tools. Um, I think there is a social problem. Um, uh, that needs to be rectified the, you know, um, we, we, weren't built as human beings to live and interact with an environment that agrees with us all the time. It's just pretty wrong. So yeah, that, that, that, um, that series that really kind of wake up a lot of people it is, is, you know, it's probably every day I hear somebody asked me if I, I saw, um, but I do think it also, you know, with that level of awareness, I think we, we overcome it or we compensate by what number one, just being aware that it's happening. Um, number two, you know, how you go about solving it, I think maybe come down to an individual or even a community's, um, solution and what might be right for one community might be, you know, not the same for the other. So you have to be respectful in that manner. >>Yeah. So it's, it's, it's almost, I think if I could, you know, play back, what I heard is, is yeah. Technology, you know, maybe got us into this problem, but technology alone is not going to get us out of the problem. It's not like some magic AI bot is going to solve this. It's got to be, you know, society has to really, really take this on as your premise. >>When I, when I first started playing online games, I'm going back to, you know, the text based adventure stuff like muds and Mose. I did a talk at, at MIT one time and, um, this old curmudgeon in the back of the room, um, we were talking about democracy and we were talking about, you know, the social processes that we had modeled in our game and this and that. And this guy just gave us the SmackDown. He needs to be walked up to the front of the room and said, you know, all you techies, you judge efficiency by how long it takes. He says, democracy is a completely the opposite, which is you need to sleep on it. In fact, you shouldn't be scared if somebody can decide in a minute, what is good for the community? It, two weeks later, they probably have a better idea of what's good for the community. So it almost has the opposite dynamic. And that was super interesting to me, >>Really interesting, you know, you read the, like the, the Lincoln historians and he was criticized in the day for having taken so long, you know, to make certain decisions, but, you know, ultimately when he acted acted with, with confidence. Um, so to that point, but, um, so what, what else are you working on these days that, uh, that are, that is, is interesting that maybe you want to share with our audience? Anything that's really super exciting for you or are you >>Yeah. You know, generally speaking, um, try not try and make it a little harder for the bad guys to operate. I guess that's a general theme making it simpler for the common person to use, uh, tools. Um, again, you know, all of these security tools, no matter how fancy it is, it's not that we're losing the complexity, it's that we're moving the complexity away from the user so that they can drive at human scale. And we can do things at machine scale and kind of working those two together is sort of the, the, the magic recipe. Um, it's, it's not easy, but, um, but it is, it is fun. So that's, that's what keeps me engaged. >>I'm definitely seeing, I wonder if you see it as just sort of a, obviously a heightened organization awareness, but I'm also seeing shifts in the organizational structures. You know, the, you know, it used to be a sec ops team and an Island. Okay, it's your problem? You know, the, the, the CSO cannot report into the, to the CIO because that's like the Fox in the hen house, a lot of those structures are, are, are changing. It seems, and be becoming a, this responsibility is coming much more ubiquitous across the organization. What are you seeing there? And what are you? >>And it's so familiar to me because, you know, um, I, I started out as a musician. So, you know, bands bands are a great analogy. You know, you play bass, I big guitar. You know, somebody else plays drums, everybody knows their role and you create something that's larger than the sum of all parts. And so that, that analogy I think, is coming to, you know, we, we saw it sort of with dev ops where, you know, the developer, doesn't just throw their coat over the wall and it's somebody else's problem. They move together as a band. And, and that's what I think, um, organizations are seeing is that, you know, why, why stop there? Why not include marketing? Why not include sales? Why don't we move together as a business? Not just here's the product and here's the rest of the business. That's, that's, that's pretty awesome. Um, I think, uh, we see a lot of those patterns, uh, particularly for the highly high performance businesses. >>You know, in fact, it's interesting, you have great analogy by the way. And you actually see in that within Cisco, you're seeing sort of a, and I know sometimes you guys don't like to talk about the plumbing, but I think it matters. I mean, you've got a leadership structure now. I I've talked to many of them. They seem to really be more focused on how their connect connecting, you know, across organizations. And it's increasingly critical in this world of, you know, of silo busters. Isn't it? >>Yeah, no, I mean, you almost, as, as you move further and further away, you know, you can see how ridiculous it was before it would be like acquiring the band and say, okay, all your guitar players go over here. All your bass players go over there. Like what happened to the band? That's what I'm talking about is, you know, moving all of those disciplines, moving together and servicing the same backlog and achieving the same successes together is just so awesome. Well, I, I always feel better after talking to you. You know, I remember I remember art. Coviello used to put out his letter every year and I was reading. I'd get depressed. We spend all this money now we're less secure. But when I talked to you TK, I feel like much more optimistic. So I really appreciate the time you spend on the cube. It's, it's awesome to have you as a guest. I love these, I love these sessions. So things thanks for inviting me and I miss you, you know, hopefully, you know, next year we can get together at some of the Cisco shows or other shows, but be well and stay weird. Like the sign says kidney, thanks so much for coming to the Q. We, uh, we really appreciate it. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante. We've right back with our next guest. This short break, >>After the cubes coverage, just to keep virtuals coverage of dev net create virtual. We're not face to face the cubes been there with dev net and dev net create. Since the beginning, dev net create was really a part of the dev net community. Looking out at the external market outside of Cisco, which essentially is the cloud native world, which is going mainstream. We've got a great guest here. Who's, who's been the company's been on the cube. Many times. We've been talking to them recently acquired by Cisco thousand eyes. We have Joe Vaccaro is beast vice president of product. Uh, Joe, welcome to the cube. Thanks for coming on. Great. And thanks for having me. You have the keys to the kingdom, you, the vice president of product, which means you get to look inside and you get to look outside, figure it all out, uh, make everything run on thousand eyes. >>You guys have been finding common language, uh, across multiple layers of network intelligence, external services. This is the heart of what we're seeing in innovation with multi-cloud microservices, cloud native. This is really a hot area it's converged in multiple theaters and technology. Super important. I want to get into that with you, but first thousand eyes is recently acquired by Cisco, um, big acquisition, uh, super important, the new CEO of Cisco, very clear API, everything we're seeing that come out. That's a big theme at dev net create the ecosystem of Cisco's going outside their own, you know, their, their walls outside of the Cisco network operators, network engineers. We're talking to developers talking programmability. This is the big theme. What's it like at Cisco? Tell us, honestly, the COVID hits. You get acquired by Cisco, tell us what's happening. >>Yeah, it's really been an exciting six months for the entire team and customers, >>You know, as we all kind of shifted to the new normal of working from home. And I think, you know, that change alone really kind of amplified. Even some of the fundamental beliefs that we have as a company that you know, cloud is becoming the new data center or customers that Indra internet has become the new network and the new enterprise network backbone. And that SAS has really become the new application stack. And as you think about these last six months, those fundamental truths have never been more evident as we rely upon the cloud to be able to, to work as we rely upon our own home networks and the internet in order to be productive. And as we access more sized applications on a daily basis. And as you think about those fundamental truths, what's common across all of them is that you rely upon them now more than ever, not only to run your business, but to any of your employees would be productive, but you don't own them. And if you don't own them, then you lack the ability in a traditional way to be able to understand that digital experience. And I think that's ultimately what, what thousand eyes is trying to solve for. And I think it's really being amplified in really these last six months. >>Talk about the Cova dynamic because I think it highlighted and certainly accelerated digital transformation, but specifically exposes opportunities, challenges, weaknesses, I've talked to many CXOs CSOs. Uh, sec security is huge. Um, the home of the conference book talk track we'll get to in a second, but it exposes what's worth doubling down on what to abandoned from a project standpoint, as people start to look at their priorities, they're going, Hey, we got to have a connected experience. We got to have security. People are working at home. No one has VPNs at home. VPNs are passe. Maybe it's SD when maybe it's something else they're on a backbone. They're connecting to the internet, a lot of different diversity in connections. At the same time, you got a ton of modern apps running for these networks. This is a huge issue. COVID is exposed this at scale. What's your view on this? And what is thousand eyes thinking about this? >>You know, if you think about the kind of legacy application delivery, it went from largely users in an office connected over, say a dedicated corporate network, largely to traditional say internal hosted applications. And that was a early, simple, uh, connectivity bath. And as you mentioned, we've seen amplifications in terms of the diversity from the users. So users are not in the office. Now they're connected in distributed disparate locations that are dynamically changing. And you think that how they're getting to that application, they're going across a really complex service chain of different network services that are working together across as public internet backbone will totally to land them on an application. And then those applications themselves are becoming now, as you mentioned, distributed largely based upon a microservices architecture and increasing their own dependence upon third party sample size applications to fulfill say, functions of that application, those three things together. >>Ultimately you're creating that level level of complex service chain that really makes it difficult to understand the digital experience and ultimately the it organization newly chartered with not just delivering the infrastructure, but delivering the right experience. And you then have a way to be able to see, to gain that visibility, that experience, you know, to measure it and understand, and to provide that intelligence and then ultimately to act on it, to be able to ensure that your employees, as well as your customers are getting the right overall, um, approach to being able to leverage those assets. >>It's funny, you know, as you get into some of these high-scale environments, a lot of these concepts are converging. You know, we had terms like automation, self healing networks. Um, you mentioned microservices early, you mentioned data at the clouds, the new data center, uh, or when's the new land. However, we're going to look at it. It's a whole different architecture. So I want to get your thoughts on, on the automation piece of networking and internet outages, for instance, um, because when you, you know, there's so many outages going up and down, it is like, uh, catching, looking for a needle in a haystack, right. So, um, we've had this conversation with you guys on the cube before, how does automation occur when you guys look at those kinds of things? Uh, what's important to look at, can you comment on and react to, you know, the internet outages and how you find resolve those? >>Yeah. It's um, it was really great. And as you mentioned, automation really in a place that a key, when you think about the, just a broad problem that it is trying to drive and, you know, from our lens, we look at it in really three ways. First off is you have to be able to gain the level of visibility from where it matters and be able to, to test and be able to provide that level of active measurements across the, the type of ways you want to be able to inspect the network. But then also from the right vantage points, you want to inspect it. But what we talk about right inside, you know, data, um, alone, doesn't solve that problem. As you mentioned, that needle in the haystack, you know, data just provides the raw metrics that are screaming across the screen. You have to then enable that data to provide meeting. >>You need to enable that data become intelligent. And that intelligence comes through the automation of being able to process that data very quickly, allow you to be able to see the unseen, to allow you to be able to quickly understand the issues that are happening across this digital supply chain to identify issues that are even happening outside of your own control across the public internet. And then the last step of automation really comes in the form of the action, right? How do you enable that intelligence to be put, to use? How do you enable that intelligence to then drive across the rest of your it workflow as well as to be able to be used as a signaling engine, to be able to then make the fundamental changes back at the network fabric, whether that is a dressing or modifying your BGB pairing, that we see happen within our customers using thousand eyes data, to be able to route around major internet outages that we've seen over the past six months, or to be able to then that data, to be able to optimize the ultimate experience that they're delivering to both our customers, as well as our employees, >>Classic policy based activity, taking it to a whole nother level. I got to get your thoughts on the employees working at home. Okay. Because, um, you know, most it, people are like, Oh yeah, we're going to forecast in cases of disruption or a hurricane or a flood or hurricane Sandy, but now with COVID, everyone's working at home. So who would have forecasted a hundred percent, um, you know, work from home, which puts a lot of pressure on him, everything. So I got to ask you, now that employees are working at home, how do you tie network visibility to the actual user experience? >>Yeah, that's a great question. As you, you know, we saw it within our own customer base, you know, when COVID head and we saw this rise of work from home, it teams were really scrambling and said, okay, I have to light up this, say VPN infrastructure, or I need to now be able to support my users in a work from home situation where I don't control the corporate network. In essence, now you have essentially thousands. Every employee is acting across their own corporate network and people were then using thousand eyes in different ways to be able to monitor their CTPs infrastructure across, back into the corporate network, as well as in using our thousand eyes end point agents that runs on a local, a user's laptop or machine in their home to help you to be able to gain that visibility down to that last mile of connectivity. >>Because when a user calls up support and says, I'm having trouble say accessing my application, whether that's Salesforce or something else, what ultimately might be causing that issue might not necessarily be a Salesforce issue, right? It could be the device in the device performance in terms of CPU, memory utilization. It could be the wifi and the signal quality within your wifi network. It could be your access point. It could be your raw, local home router. It can be your local ISP. It could be the path that you're taking ultimately to your corporate network or that application. There's so many places that could go wrong that are now difficult to be able to see, unless you have the ability to see comprehensively from the user to the application, and to be able to understand that full end to end path, >>You know, it teams have also been disrupted. They've been on offsite prop off property as well, but you've got the cloud. How has your technology helped the it teams? Can you give some examples there? Um, >>Yeah, a great way is, you know, how people use thousand eyes as part of that data sharing ecosystem. Again, that notion of how do you go from visibility to intelligence action and where in the past you might be able as an it administrator to walk over to their network team and say, Hey, can you take a look at what I'm seeing now? That's no longer available. So how do you be able to work efficiently as the United organization? You know, we think a thousand eyes in how our customers are using us a thousand times becomes a common operating language that allows them to be able to analyze across from the application down into the underlying infrastructure, through those different layers of the network what's happening. And where do you need to focus your attention? And then furthermore, with 10,000 eyes in terms of a need, enabling that data sharing ecosystem, leveraging our share link capability really gives them the ability to say, you know, what, here's what I'm seeing and be able to send that to anybody within the it organization. But it goes even further and many times in recent times, as well as over the course of people using thousand eyes, they take those share links and actually send them to their external providers because they're not just looking to resolve issues within their own it organization. They're having to work collaboratively with a different ISP. If they're pairing with, with their cloud providers that they're appearing, uh, they're leveraging, or the SAS applications that are part of that core dependency of how they deliver their experience. >>I asked you the question, we think about levels of visibility and making the lives easier for it. Teams. Um, you see a lot of benefits with thousand eyes. You pointed out a few of them just got to ask you the question. So if I'm an it person I'm in the trenches, are you guys have, uh, an aspirin or a vitamin or both? Can you give an example because there's a lot of pain point out there. So yeah. Give me a cup, a couple Advils and aspirins, but also you're an enabler to the new things are evolving. You pointed out some use case. You talk about the difference between where you're helping people pain points and also enabling them be successful for it teams. >>Yeah, that's a great analogy. You're thinking it, like you said, it definitely sits on both sides of that spectrum, you know, thousand eyes is the trusted tool, the source of truth for it. Organizations when issues are happening as their alarm bells are ringing, as they are generating the, um, the different, uh, on call, uh, to be able to jump into a war situation thousand eyes is that trusted source of truth. Allow them to focus, to be able to resolve that issue in the heat of the moment. But that was a nice also when we think about baselining, your experience, what's important is not understanding that experience at that moment at time, but also how that's deviated over time. And so by leveraging thousand eyes on a continuous basis, it gives you that ability to see the history of that experience, to understand how your network is changing is as you mentioned, networks are constantly evolving, right? >>The internet itself is constantly changing. It's an organic system, and you need to be able to understand not only what are the metrics that are moving out of your bounds, but then what is potentially the cause of that as a network has evolved. And then furthermore, you can be begin to use that as you mentioned, in terms of your vitamin type of an analogy, to be able to understand the health of your system over time on a baseline basis so that you can begin to, uh, be able to ensure its success in a great way to really kind of bring that to light. As people using say, thousand eyes as part of the same se land-based rollout, where you're looking to say benchmark, and you can confidence as you look to scale out in either, you know, benchmarking different ESPs within that, I feel like connectivity for as you look to ensure a level of success with a single branch, give you that competence to then scale out to the rest of your organization. >>That's great insights. The classic financial model ROI got baseline and upside, right? You got handle the baseline as you pointed out, and the upside music experience connectivity, you know, application performance, which drives revenue, et cetera. So great point. Great insight, Joe. Thank you so much for that insight. It's got a final question for you. I want to just riff a little bit with you on the industry. A lot of us have been having debates about automation and who doesn't, who doesn't love automation. Automation is awesome, right? Automate things, but as the trend starts going on, as everything is a service or X, a S as it's called, certainly Cisco's going down that road. Talk about your view about the difference between automation and everything is a service because at the end of the day, everything will be a service, but without automation, you really can't have services, right? So, you know, automation, automation, automation, great, great drum to bang all day long, but then also you got the same business side saying as a service, as a service, pushing that into the products, it means not trivial. Talk about, talk about how you look at automation and everything as a service and the relationship and interplay between those two concepts. >>Yeah. Ultimately I think about in terms of what is the problem that the business is trying to solve in ultimately, what is the deal that they're trying to face? And in many ways, right, they're being exploded with increase of data that needs, they need to be able to not only process and gather, but then be able to then make use of, and then from that, as we mentioned, once you've processed that data and you've said, gather the insights from it. You need to be able to then act on that data. And automation plays a key role of allowing you to be able to then put that through your workflow. Because again, as that, it experience becomes even more complex as more and more services get put into that digital supply chain. As you adopt say increased complexity within your infrastructure, by moving to a multicloud architecture where you look to increase the number of say, network services that you're leveraging across that digital experience. >>Ultimately you need with the level of automation, you'll be able to see outside of your own vantage point. You need to be able to look at the problem from as broad of a, a broad of a way as possible. And, you know, data and automation allows you to be able to do what is fundamentally difficult to do from a very narrow point of view, in terms of the visibility you gather intelligence you generate, and then ultimately, how do you act on that data as quick as possible to be able to provide the value of what you're looking for. >>It's like a feature it's under the hood. The feature of everything comes to the surface is automation, data, machine learning, all the goodness in the software. I mean, that's really kind of what we're talking about here. Isn't it a final question for you as we wrap up, uh, dev net create really, again, is going beyond Cisco's dev net community going into the industry ecosystem where developers are there. Um, these are folks that want infrastructure as code. They want network as code. So network programmability, huge topic. We've been having that conversation, uh, with Cisco and others throughout the industry for the past three years. What's your message to developers out there that are watching this who say, Hey, I just want to develop code. Like I want, you know, you guys got that. That was nice. Thanks so much. You know, you take care of that. I just want to write code. What's your message to those folks out there who want to tap some of these new services, these new automation, these new capabilities, what's your message. >>And ultimately, I think, you know, when you're looking at thousand eyes, um, you know, from a fraud perspective, you know, we try to build our product in an API first model to allow you to be able to then shift left of how you think about that overall experience. And from a developer standpoint, you know, what I'd say is, is that while you're developing in your silo, you're going to be part of a larger ultimate system. In your experience you deliver within your application is now going to be dependent upon not only the infrastructure that's running upon, but the network it's connected to, and then ultimately the user in the sense of that user and by leveraging that thousand eyes and being able to then integrate thousand into how you think closely on that experience, that's going to help ensure that ultimately the application experience that the developer's looking to deliver meets that objective. And I think what I would say is, you know, while you need to focus on your, uh, your role as a developer, having the understanding of how you fit into the larger ecosystem and what the reality of the, of how your users access that application is critical. >>Awesome, Joe, thank you so much. Again, trust is everything letting people understand that what's going on underneath is going to be viable and capable. You guys got a great product and congratulations on the acquisition that Cisco made of your company. We've been following you guys for a long time and a great technology chops, great market traction, congratulations to everyone, 1,009. Thanks for coming on sharing. I appreciate it. Thanks Joe Vaccaro, vice president of product here, but thousand nine is now part of Cisco, John, for your host of the cube cube virtual for dev net, create virtual. Thanks for watching. >>Even prior to the pandemic, there was a mandate to automate the hyperscale cloud companies. They've shown us that to scale. You really have to automate you human labor. It just can't keep up with the pace of technology. Now, post COVID that automation mandate is even more pressing. Now what about the marketplace? What are S E seeing on the horizon? The cubes Jeff Frick speaks with Cisco engineers to gather their insights and explore the definite specialized partner program. We've got a Coon Jacobs. He's the director of systems engineering for Cisco. >>Good to see Kuhn. >>Thank you for having me >>Joining him as Eric nip. He is the VP of system systems engineering for Cisco. Good to see Eric. Good to be here. Thank you. Pleasure. So before we jump into kind of what's going on now in this new great world of programmability and, and control, I want to kind of go back to the future for a minute because when I was doing some research for this interview, it was cool. I saw an old presentation that you were giving from 2006 about the changing evolution of the, uh, the changing evolution of networking and moving from. I think that the theme was a human centered human centered network. And you were just starting to touch a little bit on video and online video. Oh my goodness, how far we have come, but I would love to get kind of a historical perspective because we've been talking a lot and I know Eric son plays football about the football analogy of the network is kind of like an offensive lineman where if they're doing a good job, you don't hear much about them, but they're really important to everything. >>And the only time you hear about them as the women, the flag gets thrown. So if you look back with the historical perspective, the load and the numbers and the evolution of the network, as we've moved to this modern time, and, you know, thank goodness cause of COVID hit five years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, you know, all of us in the information space would not have been able to make this transition. So I just, I just love to get some historical perspective cause you've been kind of charting this and mapping this for a very long time. >>Yeah. W we absolutely have. I think, you know, what you're referring to was back in the day, the human network campaign, and to your point, the load, the number of hosts that traffic that just overall, the intelligence of the network has just evolved tremendously over these last decade and a half, uh, 15 years or so. And you look at where we are now in terms of the programmable nature of the network and what that enables in terms of new degrees of relevance that we can create for the customers and how, you know, the role of it has changed entirely again, especially during this pandemic, you know, the fact that it's now as a serve as an elastic is absolutely fundamental to being able to ensure, uh, on an ongoing basis, a great customer experience. And so, uh, it's been, it's been, uh, a very interesting ride. >>And then just to close the loop, the, one of your more later interviews talking to Sylvia, your question is, are you a developer or an engineer? So it was, and, and your whole advice to all these network engineers is just, just don't jump in and start doing some coding and learning. So, you know, the focus and really the emphasis and where the opportunity to differentiate as a company is completely shifting gears over to the, you know, really software defined side. >>Oh, absolutely. So I mean, you look at how the software world and the network has come together and how we're applying now, you know, basically the same construct of CIC pipeline to network, uh, infrastructure, look at network really as, and get all of the benefits from that. And the familiarity of it, the way that our engineers have had to evolve. And that is just, you know, quite, quite significant in, in, in like the skill set. And the best thing is jump in, right. You know, dip your toe in the water, but continue to evolve that skill set. And, you know, don't, don't be shy. It's a leap of faith for some of us who've been in the industry a bit longer. We like to look at ourselves as the craftsman of the network, but now it's definitely a software centricity and programmability, right? >>So Eric, you've got some digital exhaust out there too, that I was able to dig up going back to 2002 752 page book and the very back corner of a dark dirty dusty Amazon warehouse is managing Cisco network security, 752 pages. Wow. How has security change from a time where before I could just read a book, a big book, you know, throw some protocols in and probably block a bunch of ports to the world that we live in today, where everything is connected. Everything is API driven, everything is software defined. You've got pieces of workloads spread out all over the place and Oh, by the way, you need to bake security in at every single level of the application stack. >>Yeah, no, I'm so, wow. The kudos that you, you found that book I'm really impressed. There was a thank you a little street, correct. So I want to hit on something that you, you talked about. Cause I think it's very important to, to this overall conversation. If we think about the scale of the network and Coon hit on it briefly, you talked about it as well. We're seeing a massive explosion of devices by the estimated by the end of this year, there's going to be about 27 billion devices on the global internet. That's about 3.7 devices for every man, woman and child life. And if we extrapolate that out over the course of the next decade on the growth trajectory we're on. And if you look at some of the published research on this, it's estimated there could be upwards of 500 billion devices accessing the global internet on a, on a daily basis in the primarily that, that, that is a IOT devices, that's digitally connected devices. >>Anything that can be connected will be connected, but then introduces a really interesting security challenge because every one of those devices that is accessing the global internet is within a company's infrastructure or accessing pieces of corporate data is a potential attack factor. So we really need to, and I think the right expression for this is we need to reimagine security because security is, as you said, not about parameters. You know, I wrote that book back in 2002, I was talking about firewalls and a cutting edge technology was intrusion prevention and intrusion detection. Now we need to look at security really in the, in the guys up or under the, under the, under the realm of really two aspects, the identity who is accessing the data and the context, what data is being accessed. And that is going to require a level of intelligence, a level of automation and the technologies like machine learning and automated intelligence are going to be our artificial intelligence rather are going to be table stakes because of the sheer scale of what we're trying to secure is going to be untenable under current, you know, just current security practices. I mean, the network is going to have to be incredibly intelligent and leverage again, a lot of that, uh, that AI type of data to match patterns of potential attacks and ideally shut them down before they ever cause any type of damage. >>Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean, one thing that COVID has done a bunk many things is kind of retaught us all about the power of exponential curves and how extremely large those things are and how fast they grow. We at Dave runs it on a Google cloud a couple of years ago. And I remember him talking about early days at Google when they were starting to map out kind of, as you described kind of map out their growth curves, and they just figured out they could not hire if they hired everybody, they couldn't hire enough people to deal with it. Right. So really kind of rethinking automation and rethinking about the way that you manage these things and the level, right. The old, is it a pet or is it, or is it, um, uh, part of a herd and, and I think it's interesting what you talked about, uh, con really the human powered internet and being driven by a lot of this video, but to what you just said, Eric, the next big wave, right. >>Is IOT and five G. And I think, you know, you talk about 3.7 million devices per person. That's nothing compared to right. All these sensors and all these devices and all these factories, because five G is really targeted to machine the machines, which there's a lot of them and they trade a lot of information really, really quickly. So, you know, I want to go back to you Coon thinking about this next great wave in a five G IOT kind of driven world where it's kind of like when voice kind of fell off compared to IP traffic on the network. I think you're going to see the same thing, kind of human generated data relative to machine generated data is also going to fall off dramatically as a machine generated data just skyrocket through the roof. >>Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think too, also what Eric touched on the visibility on that, and they've been able to process that data at the edge. That's going to catalyze cloud adoption even further, and it's going to, you know, make the role of the network, the connectivity of it all and the security within that crucially important. And then you look at the role of programmability within that. We're seeing the evolution going so fast. You look at the element of the software defined network in an IOT speed space. We see that we have a host Sarah that are not necessarily, um, you know, behaving like other hosts would, uh, on a network, for example, manufacturing floor, uh, production robot, or a security camera. And what we're seeing is we're seeing, you know, partners and customers employing programmability to make sure that we overcome some of the shortcomings, uh, in terms of where the network is at, but then how do you customize it in terms of the relevance that can provide, >>Um, bringing on board those, uh, those hosts in a very transparent way, and then, you know, keep, keep the agility of it and keep the speed of innovation going. >>So, Eric, I want to come back to you and shift gears kind of back to the people will leave the IOT in the machines along, along for a minute, but I'm curious about what does beat the boss. I mean, I go to your LinkedIn profile and it's just filled with congratulatory statements, but everyone's talking about beating the boss. You know, it's, it's a really, you know, kind of interesting and different way to, to motivate people, to build this new skillset in terms of getting software certifications, uh, within the Cisco world. And I just thought it was really cute the way that you, uh, clearly got people motivated, cause there's posts all over the place and they've all got their, their nice big badge or their certification, but, you know, at a higher level, it is a different motivation to be a developer versus an you're an a technician. And it's kind of a different point of view. And I just wonder if you could share, you know, some of the ways that you're, you're kind of encouraging, you know, kind of this transformation within your own workforce, as well as the partners, et cetera, and really adopting kind of almost a software first and this program kind of point of view versus, you know, I'm just wiring stuff up. >>Apparently a lot of people like to beat me. So I mean, not itself was a, was a, a, it was a great success, but you know, if we think we take a step back, you know, what is Cisco about as an organization? Um, I mean, obviously he looked back to the very early days of our vision, right? It was, it was to change the way the world worked, played, live and learn. And that you think about, and you hit on this when we were, you know, we were discussion with co with Kuhn in the early days of COVID. We really saw that play out as so much shifted from, you know, in-person type of interactions to virtual interactions in the network that, uh, that our, our customers, our partners, our employees built over the course of the last several years, the last three decades really helped the world continue to, um, to, to do business for students to continue to go to school or clinicians, to connect with patients. >>If I think about that mission to me, programmability is just the next iteration of that mission, continuing to enable the world to communicate, continuing, to enable customers, employees, uh, partners, uh, to essentially leverage the network for more than just connectivity now to leverage it for critical insight. Again, if we look at some of the, uh, some of the use cases that we're seeing for social distancing and contact tracing and network has a really important place to play there because we can pull insight from it, but it isn't necessarily an out of the box type of integration. So I look at programmability and in what we're doing with, with dev net to give relevance to the network for those types of really critical conversations that every organization is having right now, it's a way to extrapolate. It's a way to pull critical data so that I can make a decision. >>And if that is automated, or if that decision requires some type of manual intervention, regardless, we're still about connecting. And in this case, we're connecting insight with the people who need it most, right. The debit challenge we ran is really in respect for how critical this new skill set is going to be. It's not enough, like I said, just to connect the world anymore. We need to leverage that network, the network for that critical insight. And when we drove, we were, we created the beat, the boss challenge. It was really simple. Hey guys, I think this is important and I am going to go out and I'm going to achieve the certification myself, because I don't want to continue to be very relevant. I want to continue to be able to provide that insight for my customers and partners. So therefore I'm going for anybody that can get there before me. Maybe there's a little incentive tied to it and the incentive, although it's funny, we interviewed a lot of, a lot of our team who, who achieved it when incentive was secondary, they just wanted to have the bragging rights, like yeah, I beat Eric. Right? >>Right. Absolutely. No, it's a, it's it, you know, putting your money where your mouth is, right. If it's important, then why you should do it too. And, and you know, the whole, you're not asking people to do what you wouldn't do yourself. So I think there's a lot of good leadership, uh, leadership lessons there as well, but I want to extend kind of the conversation on the covert impact, right? Cause I'm sure you've seen all the social media means, you know, who's driving your digital transformation, the CEO, the CMO or COVID. And we all know the answer to the question, but you know, you guys have already been dealing with kind of an increased complexity around enterprise infrastructure world in terms of cloud and public cloud and hybrid cloud and multi cloud. And people are trying to move stuff all the way around now suddenly had this COVID moment right in, in March, which is really a light switch moment. >>People didn't have time to plan or prepare for suddenly everybody working from home. And it's not only you, but your spouse and your kids and everybody else. So I, but now we're six months plus into this thing. And I would just love to get your perspective and kind of the change from, Oh my goodness, we have to react to the light switch moment. What do we do to make sure people can, can get, get what they need when they need it from where they are a bubble, but then really moving from this is a, an emergency situation, a stop gap situation to, Hmm, this is going to extend for some period of time. And even when it's the acute crisis is over, you know, this is going to drive a real change in the way that people communicate in the way that people, where they sit and do their jobs and, and kind of how customers are responding accordingly as the, you know, kind of the narrative has changed from an emergency stop gap to this is the new normal that we really need to plan for. >>So, uh, I think, I think you said it very well. I think anything that could be digitized, any, any interaction that could be driven virtually was, and what's interesting is we, as you said, we went from that light switch moment where I, and I believe the status, this, and I'll probably get number wrong, but like in the United States here at the beginning, at the end of February, about 2% of the knowledge worker population was virtual, you know, working from home or in a, in a remote work environment. And over the course of about 11 days, that number went from 2% to 70%. Wow. Interesting that it worked, you know, there was a lot of hiccups along the way, and there was a lot of organizations making really quick decisions on how do I enable VPN scale of mass? How do I leverage, uh, you know, things like WebEx for virtual meetings and virtual connectivity, uh, much faster now that as you said, that we kind of gotten out of the fog of, of, of war for our fog of battle organizations are looking at what they accomplished. >>And it was nothing short of Herculean and looking at this now from a transition to, Oh my gosh, we need to change too. We have an opportunity to change. And we're looking, we see a lot of organizations specifically around, uh, financial services, healthcare, uh, the, uh, the K through 20, uh, educational environment, all looking at how can they do more virtually for a couple of reasons. Obviously there is a significant safety factor. And again, we're still in that we're still on the height of this pandemic. They want to make sure their employees, their customers, students, patients remain safe. But second, um, we've found in, in discussions with a lot of senior it executives that our customers, that people are happier working from home, people are more productive working from home. And that, again, the network that's been built over the course of the last few decades has been resilient enough to allow that to happen. >>And then third, there is a potential cost savings here outside of people. The next most expensive resource that organizations are paying for is real estate. If they can shrink that real estate footprint while providing a better user experience at the locations that they're maintaining, again, leveraging things like location services, leveraging things like a unified collaboration. That's very personalized to the end user's experience. They're going to do that. And again, they're going to save money. They're going to have happier employees and ultimately they're going to make their, uh, their employees and their customers a lot safer. So we see, we believe that there is in some parts of the economy, a shift that is going to be more permanent and some estimates put it as high as 15% of the current workforce is going to stay in there in a virtual or a semi virtual working environment for the foreseeable future. >>And I, and I, and I would say, I'd say 15% is low, especially if you, if you qualify it with, you know, part time, right. I, there was a great interview we were doing and talking about working from home, we used to work from home as the exception, right? Cause the cable person was coming, are you getting a new washing machine or something where now that's probably getting, you know, in many cases we'll shift to the other where I'm generally gonna work from home unless, you know, somebody is in town or having an important meeting or there's some special collaboration that drives me to be in. But you know, I want to go back to you Kuhn and, and really doubled down on, you know, I think most people spent too much time focusing, especially, we'll just say within the virtual events base where we play on the things you can't do virtually, we can't meet in the hall. >>We can't grab a quick coffee and a drink instead of focusing on the positive things like we're accomplishing right here, you're in Belgium, right. Eric is in Ohio, we're in California. Um, and you know, we didn't take three days to, to travel and, and check into a hotel and all that stuff to get together, uh, for this period of time. So there's a lot of stuff that digital enables. And I think, you know, people need to focus more on that versus continuing to focus on the two or three things that, that it doesn't replace and it doesn't replace those. So let's just get that off the table and move on with our lives. Cause those aren't coming back anytime soon. >>No, totally. I think it's the balance of those things. It's guarding the fact that you're not necessarily working for home. I think the trick there is you could be sleeping at the office, but I think the positives are way, way more outspoken. Um, I, you know, I look at myself, I got much more exercise time in these last couple of months than I usually do because you don't travel. You don't have the jet lag and the connection. And then you talked about those face to face moments. I think a lot of people are in a way, um, wanting to go back to the office part time as, as Eric also explained. But a lot of it you can do virtually we have virtual coffees with team or, you know, even here in Belgium, our, our local general manager has a virtual effort. TIF every Friday obviously skipped the one this week. But, uh, you know, there's, there's ways to be very creative with the technology and the quality of the technology that the network enables, um, you know, to, to get the best of both worlds. Right? >>So I just, we're going to wrap the segment. I want to give you guys both the last word you both been at Cisco for a while and, you know, Susie, we, and the team on dev net has really grown this thing. I think we were there at the very beginning couple of four, five, six years ago. I can't keep track of time anymore, but you know, it's really, really grown and, you know, the timing is terrific to get into this more software defined world, which is where we are. I wonder if you could just, you know, kind of share a couple thoughts as you know, with a little bit of perspective and you know, what you're excited about today and kind of what you see coming down the road since you guys have been there for a while you've been in this space, uh, let's start with Yukon. >>I think the possibility it creates, I think really programmability software defined is really about the art of the possible it's what you can dream up and then go code. Um, uh, Eric talked about the relevance of it and how it maximizes that relevance on a customer basis. Um, you know, and then it is the evolution of, of the teams in terms of the creativity that they can bring to it. Uh, we're seeing really people dive into that and customers, um, co-creating with us. And I think that's where we're going in terms of like the evolution of the value proposition there in terms of what technology >>Can provide, but also how it impacts people. Has it been discussed and redefines process? >>I love that the art of the possible, which is a lot harder to execute in a, in hardware than software certainly takes a lot longer. I'd love to get your, uh, your thoughts. >>Absolutely. So I started my career at Cisco, uh, turning, uh, putting IP phones onto the network. And back then, you know, it was, you know, 2001, 2002, when, uh, the idea of putting telephones onto the network was such a, um, just such an objectionable idea. And so many purists were telling us all the reasons it wouldn't work. Now, if we go forward again, 19 years, the idea of not having them plugging into the network is a ridiculous idea. So we have a, we're looking at an inflection point in this industry, and it's really, it's not about programming. It's not necessarily about programming. It's about doing it smarter. It's about being more efficient. It's about driving automation, but again, it is, it's about unlocking the value of what the network is. We've moved so far past. What can, you know, just connectivity, the network touches everything and it's more workload moves to the cloud is more workload moves to things like containers. >>Um, the network is the really, the only common element that ties all of these things together. The network needs to take its rightful place, uh, in the end, the, it lexicon as being that critical or that poor critical insight provider, um, for, for how users are interacting with the network, how users are interacting with applications, how applications are interacting with them in another program, ability is a way to do that more efficiently, uh, with greater a greater degree of certainty with much greater relevance into the overall delivery of it services and digitization. So to me, I think we're going to look back 20 years from now, probably even 10 and say, man, we used to configure things manually. What was that like? And I think, I think really this is, this is the future. And I think we want to be aligned with where we're going versus where we've been. >>All right. Well, Coon, Eric, thank you for, for sharing your perspective. You know, it's, it's really nice to have, you know, some historical reference, uh, and it's also nice to be living in a new age where you can, you can, you know, stay at the same company and, and still refresh, you know, new challenges, new opportunities and grow this thing. Cause as you said, I remember those IP first IP phone days and I thought, well, mob bell must be happy because the old mother's day problem is finally solved when we don't have to have a dedicated connection between every mother and every child in the middle of may. So good news. So thank you very much for sharing your, uh, your insights and really, uh, really enjoyed the >>Thank you. >>We've been covering dev net create for a number of years. I think since the very first show and Susie, we and the team really built a practice, built a company, built a lot of momentum around software in the Cisco ecosystem and in getting devs really to start to build applications and drive kind of the whole software defined networking thing forward. And a big part of that is partners and working with partners and, and developing solutions and, you know, using brain power, that's outside of the four walls of Cisco. So we're excited to have, uh, our next guest, uh, a partner for someone is Brad Hoss. He is the engineering director for dev ops at Presidio, Brad. Great to see you. >>Hey Jeff, great to be here. >>Absolutely. And joining him is Chuck Stickney. Chuck is the business development architect for Cisco dev net partners. And he has been driving a whole lot of partner activity for a very long period of time. Chuck, great to see you. >>Thanks Jeff. Great to be here and looking forward to this conversation. >>Absolutely. So let's, let's start with you Chuck, because I think, um, you know, you're leading this kind of partner effort and, and you know, software defined, networking has been talked about for a long time and you know, it's really seems to be maturing and, and software defined everything right. Has been taking over, especially with, with virtualization and moving the flexibility and the customer program ability customability in software and Mo and taking some of that off the hardware. Talk about, you know, the programs that you guys are putting together and how important it is to have partners to kind of move this whole thing forward, versus just worrying about people that have Cisco badges. >>Yeah, Jeff, absolutely. So along this whole journey of dev net where we're, we're trying to leverage that customization and innovation built on top of our Cisco platforms, most of Cisco's businesses transacted through partners. And what we hear from our customers and our partners is they want to, our customers want to way to be able to identify, does this partner have the capabilities and the skills necessary to help me go down this automation journey I'm trying to do, do a new implementation. I want to automate that. How can I find a partner to, to get there? And then we have some of our partners that have been building these practices going along the step in that journey with us for the last six years, they really want to say, Hey, how can I differentiate myself against my competitors and give an edge to my customers to show them that, yes, I have these capabilities. I've built a business practice. I have technology, I have technologists that really understand this capability and they have the net certifications to prove it, help me be able to differentiate myself throughout our ecosystem. So that's really what our Danette partner specialization is all about. >>Right. That's great. And Brad, you're certainly one of those partners and I want to get your perspective because partners are oftentimes a little bit closer to the customer cause you've got your kind of own set of customers that you're building solutions and just reflect on, we know what happened, uh, back in March 15th, when basically everybody was told to go home and you can't go to work. So, you know, there's all the memes and social media about who, you know, who pushed forward your digital transformation, the CEO, the CMO or COVID. And we all know what the answer is, whatever you can share some information as to what happened then, and really for your business and your customers, and then reflect now we're six months into it months plus, and, and you know, this new normal is going to continue for a while. How's the customer attitudes kind of changed now that they're kind of buckled down past the light switch moment and really we need to put in place some foundation to carry forward for a very long time potentially. >>Yeah, it's really quite interesting actually, you know, when code first hit, we got a lot of requests to help with automation of provisioning our customers and in the whole digital transformation got really put on hold for a little bit there and I'd say it became more of, of the workplace transformation. So we were quickly, uh, you know, migrating customers to, you know, new typologies where instead of the, the, you know, users sitting in those offices, they were sitting at home and we had to get them connected rapidly in a, we have a lot of success there in those beginning months with, you know, using automation and programmability, um, building, you know, provisioning portals for our customers to get up and running really fast. Um, and that, that, that was what it looked like in those early days. And then over time, I'd say that's the asks from our customers has started to transition a little bit. >>You know, now they're asking, you know, how can I take advantage of the technology to, you know, look at my offices in a different way, you know, for example, you know, how many people are coming in and out of those locations, you know, what's the usage of my conference rooms. Um, are there, uh, are there, um, situations where I can use that information? Like how many people are in the building and at a certain point in time and make real estate decisions on that, you know, like, do I even need this office anymore? So, so the conversations have really changed in ways that you couldn't have imagined before March. Right. >>And I wonder with, with you Chuck, in terms of the Cisco point of view, I mean, the network is amazing. It had had, COVID struck five years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, you know, clearly there's a lot of industries that are suffering badly entertainment, um, restaurant, business, transportation, they, you know, hospitality, but for those of us in kind of the information industry, the switch was pretty easy. Um, you know, and, and the network enables the whole thing. And so I wonder if, you know, kind of from your perspective as, as suddenly, you know, the importance of the network, the importance of security and the ability now to move to this new normal very quickly from a networking perspective. And then on top of that, having, you know, dev net with, with the software defined on top, you guys were pretty much in a good space as good as space as you could be given this new challenge thrown at you. >>Yeah, Jeff, we completely agree with that. A new Cisco has pushed the idea that the network is transformational. The network is the foundation, and as our customers have really adopted that message, it is enabled that idea for the knowledge workers to be able to continue on. So for myself, I've, I've worked for home the entire time I've been at Cisco. So the last 13 years, this is, you know, the, the change to the normalcy is I never get on a plane anymore, but my day to day functions are still the same. And it's built because of the capabilities we have with the network. I think the transition that we've seen in the industry, as far as kind of moving to that application type of economy, as we go to microservices, as we go to a higher dependency upon cloud, those things have really enabled the world really to be able to better respond to this, to this COVID situation. And I think it's helped to, to justify the investments that's that our customers have made as well as what our partners have been, being able to do to deliver on that multicloud capability, to take those applications, get them closer to the end user instead of sitting in a common data center and then making it more applicable to, to users wherever they may be, not just inside of that traditional form. >>Right. Right. It's interesting that Brad, you, you made a comment on another interview. I was watching getting ready for this one in terms of, uh, applications now being first class citizens was, was what you said. And it's kind of interesting coming from an infrastructure point of view, where before it was, you know, what do I have and what can I build on it now really it's the infrastructure that responds back to the application. And even though you guys are both in the business of, of networking and infrastructure, it's still this recognition that apps first is the way to go, because that gives people the competitive advantage that it gives them the ability to react in the marketplace and to innovate and move faster. So, you know, it's, it's a really interesting twist to be able to support an application first, by having a software defined in a more programmable infrastructure stack. >>Yeah, no doubt. And, you know, I think that the whole push to cloud was really interesting in the early days, it was like, Hey, we're going to change our applications to be cloud first. You know? And then I think the terminology changed over time, um, to more cloud native. So when we, when we look at what cloud has done over the past five years with customers moving, you know, their, their assets into the cloud in the early days that we were all looking at it just like another data center, but what it's really become is a place to host your applications. So when we talk about cloud migrations with our customers now, we're, we're no longer talking about, you know, the assets per se, we're talking about the applications and what did those applications look like? And even what defines an application right now, especially with the whole move to cloud native and microservices in the automation that helps make that all happen with infrastructure as code. >>You're now able to bundle the infrastructure with those applications together as a single unit. So when you define that application, as infrastructure, as code the application in this definition of what those software assets for the infrastructure are, all are wrapped together and you've got change control, version control, um, and it's all automated, you know, it's, it's a beautiful thing. And I think it's something that we've all kind of hoped would happen. You know, in, when I look back at the early definitions of software defined networking, I think everybody was trying to figure it out and they didn't really fully understand what that meant now that we can actually define what that network infrastructure could look like as it's, as it's wrapped around that application in a code template, maybe that's Terraform or Ansible, whatever that might be, whatever method or tool that you're using to bring it all together. It's, you know, it's really interesting now, I think, I think we've gotten to the point where it's starting to make a lot more sense than, you know, those early days of SDN, uh we're out, you know, it was, was it a controller or is it a new version of SNMP? You know, now it makes sense it's actually something tangible. >>Right, right. But still check, as you said, right. There's still a lot of API APIs and there's still a lot of component pieces to these applications that are all run off the network that all have to fit, uh, that had to fit together. You know, we cover PagerDuty summit and you know, their whole thing is trying to find out where the, where the problems are within the very few microseconds that you have before the customer abandons their shopping cart or whatever the particular application. So again, the network infrastructure and the program ability super important. But I wonder if you could speak to the automation because there's just too much stuff going on for individual people to keep track of and they shouldn't be keeping track of it because they need to be focusing on the important stuff, not this increasing amount of bandwidth and traffic going through the network. >>Yeah, absolutely. Jeff said the bandwidth that's necessary in order to support everybody working from home to support this video conference. I mean, we used to do this sitting face to face. Now we're doing this over the internet. The amount of people necessary to, to be able to facilitate that type of traffic. If we're doing it the way we did 10 years ago, we would not scale it's automation. That makes that possible. That allows us to look higher up the ability to do that. Automatic provisional provisioning. Now that we're in microservices now, everything is cloud native. We have the ability to, to better, to better adjust, to and adapt to changes that happen with the infrastructure below hand. So if something goes wrong, we can very quickly spend something ups to take that load off where traditionally it was open up a ticket. Let me get someone in there, let me fix it. >>Now it's instantaneously identify the solution, go to my playbook, figure out exactly what solution I need to deploy and put that out there. And the network engineering team, the infrastructure engineering team, they just simply need to get notified that this happened. And as long as there's traceability and a point that Brad made, as far as you being able to go through here doing the automation of the documentation side of it. I know when I was a network engineer, one of the last things we ever did was documentation. But now that we have the API is from the infrastructure. And then the ability to tie that into other systems like an IP address management or a change control, or a trouble ticketing system, that whole idea of I made an infrastructure change. And now I can automatically do that documentation update and record. I know who did it. I know when they did it and I know what they did, and I know what the test results were even five years ago, that was fantasy land. Now, today that's just the new normal, that's just how we all operate. Right. >>Right, right. So I want to get your take on the other side, >>Cloud multicloud >>Public cloud, you know, as, as I think you said Brad, when public cloud first came out, there was kind of this, this rush into, we're going to throw everything in there then for, for, for different reasons. People decided maybe that's not the best, the best solution, but really it's horses for courses. Right. And, and I think it was pretty interesting that, that you guys are all supporting the customers that are trying to figure out where they're going to put their workloads. And Oh, by the way, that might not be a static place, right. It might be moving around based on, you know, maybe I do my initial dev and, and, and Amazon. And then when I go into production, maybe I want to move it into my data center and then maybe I'm having a big promotion or something I want to flex capability. So from, from your perspective in helping customers work through this, cause still there's a lot of opinions about what is multicloud, what is hybrid cloud and you know, it's horses for courses, how are you helping people navigate that? And what does having programmable infrastructure enable you to do for helping customers kind of sort through, you know, everybody talks about their journey. I think there's still, you know, kind of bumbling down, bumbling down paths, trying to find new things, what works, what doesn't work. And I think it's still really early days and trying to mesh all this stuff together. Yeah, >>Yeah. No doubt. It is still early days. And you know, I, I, I go back to it being application centric because, you know, being able to understand that application, when you move to the cloud, it may not look like what it used to look like when you, when you move it over there, you may be breaking parts off of it. Some of them might be running on a platform as a service while other pieces of it are running as infrastructure as service. And some of it might still be in your data center. Those applications are becoming much more complex than they used to be because we're breaking them apart into different services. Those services could live all over the place. So with automation, we really gain the power of being able to combine those things. As I mentioned earlier, those resources, wherever they are and be defined in that infrastructure as code and automation. >>But you know, aside from, I think we focus a lot about provisioning. When we talk about automation, we also have these amazing capabilities on, on the side of, uh, operations too. Like we've got streaming telemetry, and the ability to gain insights into what's going on in ways that we didn't have before, or at least in the, in, you know, in the early days of monitoring software, right? You knew exactly what that device was, where it was. It probably had a friendly name, like maybe it was, uh, something from the Hobbit right now. You've got things coming up and spinning and spinning up and spinning down, moving all over the place. In that thing. You used to know what that was. Now you have to quickly figure out where it went. So the observability factor is a huge thing that I think everybody, um, should be paying attention to attention, to moving forward with regards to when you're moving things to the cloud or even to other data centers or, you know, in your premise, I'm breaking that into microservices. >>You really need to understand what's going on. And the, you know, programmability and API APIs and, you know, yang models are tied into streaming telemetry. Now there's just so many great things coming out of this, you know, and it's all like a data structure that, that people who are going down this path and the dev net path there, they're learning these data structures and being able to rationalize and make sense of that. And once you understand that, then all of these things come together, whether it's cloud or a router or switch, um, Amazon, you know, it doesn't matter. You're on, you're all speaking a common language, which is that data structure. >>That's great. Chuck, I want to shift gears a little bit. Cause there was something that you said in another interview when I was getting ready for this one about, about in a dev net, really opening up a whole different class of partners for Cisco, um, as, as really more of a software, a software lead versus kind of the traditional networking lead. I wonder if you can put a little more color on that. Um, because clearly as you said, partners are super important. It's your primary go to market and, and Presidios, I'm sure the best partner that you have in the whole world that's and you know, you said there's some, there's some, you know, non traditional people that would not ever be a Cisco partner that suddenly you guys are playing with because of really the software lead. >>Yeah. Jeff that's exactly right. So as we've been talking to folks with dev nets and whether it'd be at one of the Cisco live events in the dev net zone or the prior dev net create events, we'll have, we'll have people come up to us who Cisco today views as a, as a customer because they're not in our partner ecosystem. They want to be able to deliver these capabilities to our customers, but they have no interest in being in the resell market. This what we're doing with the doublet that gives us the ability to bring those partners into the ecosystem, share them with our extremely large dev net community so they can get access to those, to those potential customers. But also it allows us to do partner to partner type of integration. So Brad and Presidio, they built a fantastic networking. They always have the fantastic networking business, but they've built this fantastic automation business that's there, but they may come into, into a scenario where it's working with a vertical or working with the technology case that they may not have an automation practice for. >>We can leverage some of these software specific partners to come in there and do a joint, go to markets where, so they can go where that traditional channel partner can leverage their deep Cisco knowledge in those customer relationships that they have and bring in that software partner almost as a subcontractor to help them deliver that additional business value on top of that traditional stack, that brings us to this business outcomes that the customers are looking for and a much faster fashion and a much more collaborative fashion. That's terrific. Well, again, it's a, it's, it's unfortunate that we can't be in person. I mean, the, the Cisco dev net shows, you know, they're still small, they're still intimate. There's still a lot of, uh, information sharing and, you know, great to see you. And like I said, we've been at the computer museum, I think the last couple of years and in, in San Francisco. So I look forward to a time that we can actually be together, uh, maybe, maybe for next year's event, but, uh, thank you very much for stopping by and sharing the information. Really appreciate it. Happy to be here from around the globe. It's the cube presenting, accelerating automation with Devin brought to you by Cisco. >>When I'm Sean for the cube, your host for accelerating automation with dev net, with Cisco, and we're here to close out the virtual event with Mindy Whaley, senior director, Mandy, take it away. >>Thank you, John. It's been great to be here at this virtual event and hearing all these different automation stories from our different technology groups, from customers and partners. And what I'd like to take a minute now is to let people know how they can continue this experience at DevNet create, which is our free virtual event happening globally. On October 13th, there's going to be some really fun stuff. We're going to have our annual demo jam, which is kind of like an open mic for demos, where the community gets to show what they've been building. We're also going to be, um, giving out and recognizing our dev net creator award winners for this year, which is a really great time where we recognize our community contributors who have been giving back to the community throughout the year. And then we find really interesting channels. We have our creators channels, which is full of technical talks, lightening talks. >>This is where our community, external Cisco people come in share what they've been working on, what they've been working learning during the year. We also have a channel called API action, which is where you can go deep into, you know, IOT or collaboration or data center automation and get demos talks from engineers on how to do certain use cases. And also a new segment called street from engineering, where you get to hear from the engineers, building those products as well. And we have a start now for those people just getting started, who may need to dive into some basics around coding, API APIs and get that's a whole channel dedicated to getting them started so that they can start to participate in some of the fun challenges that we're going to have during the event. And we're going to have a few fun things. Like we have some definite advocate team members who are awesome, musically talented. They're going to share some performances with us. So, um, we encourage everyone to join us there. Pick your favorite channel, uh, join us in whichever time zone you live in. Cause we'll be in three different time zones. And, um, we would love for you to be there and to hear from you during the event. Thanks so much. >>That's awesome. Very innovative, multiple time zones, accelerating automation with dev net. Thank you so much for watching and we'll see you at dev net create thanks for watching.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube presenting accelerating automation with definite brought to you by Cisco. Hey, welcome back. And writer Jeffrey here with the Cube coming from our Palo Alto studio with ongoing coverage of the Cisco Definite event is called Accelerating Automation with definite in the new normal. And we certainly know the new normal is not going away. We've been doing this since the middle of March. We're all the way to October. And so we're excited of our next guest. He's Thomas Chyba. He's the vice president of product marketing and data center networking for the intent based networking group at Cisco. Thomas, great to see you. >>Hey, good to see you, too. Yeah, truly. When any normal as everybody can see in our background. >>Exactly. Exactly So. But I mean, I'm curious. We've talked to a lot of people. We talked to a lot of leaders, you know, especially like back in March and April with this light switch moment, which was, you know, no time to prep. And suddenly everybody has to work from home. Teachers got to teach from home. And so you got the kids home. You got the spouse home everybody's home trying to get on the network and do their zoom calls in their classes. I'm curious from your perspective. You guys air right there on the on the network. You're right in the infrastructure. What did you hear and see? Kind of from your customers When suddenly, you know, March 16th hit and everybody had to go home. >>Well, good point. A. I do think we all appreciate the network much more than we used to do before on. Then the only other differences. I'm really more on WebEx calls and zoom calls, but you know otherwise? Yes. Um What? What I do see, actually, is that, as I said, network becomes much more office as a critical piece. And so before we really talked a lot about agility and flexibility. These days, we're talking much more about resiliency. Quite frankly, on what do I need to have in place with respect to network, To get my things from left to right and, you know, most 2000 east or west, as we say in the data center. Right on. That just is for most of my customers, very, very boring topic at this point, right? >>You know, it's It's amazing to think, you know, had this happened, you know, five years ago, 10 years ago. You know, the ability for so many people in the information industry to be able to actually make that transition relatively seamlessly. Eyes is actually pretty amazing. I'm sure there was some some excitement in some kudos in terms of, you know, it is all based on the network, and it is kind of this quiet thing in the background that nobody pays attention to. It's like a ref in the football game until they make a bad play. So you know, it is pretty fascinating that you and your colleagues that put this infrastructure and that enabled us to really make that move with with with really no prep, no planning and actually have a whole lot of services delivered into our homes that were used to getting at the office or used to getting at school. >>Yeah, and I mean to your point, I mean, some of us did some planning. We clearly talking about some of these thes trends in the way I look at this trans as being distributed data centers and having the ability to move your workloads and your access for users to wherever you wanna be. And so I think that clearly went on for a while. And so, in a sense, we we practice or knowing what we're prepping for. Um, But as I said, resiliency just became so much more important. And, you know, one of things. I actually do a little block a little little prep before block I put out into of August around resiliency. Uh, you if you didn't, if you didn't put this in place, you better put in place because I think, as we all know, we saw her march. This is like, maybe two or three months. We're now in October. Uh, and I think this is the new normal for some time being. Yeah, >>I think so. So let's stick on that theme in terms of trends, right? The other great trend is public cloud, um, and hybrid cloud and multi cloud. There's all types of variants on that theme. Yeah, you had in that block post about resiliency and data center cloud networking data center cloud. You know, some people think Wait, it's it's kind of an either or either got my data center or I've got myself in the cloud and I got Public Cloud. And then, as I said, Hybrid cloud, you're talking really specifically about enabling, um, both in inner data Center resiliency within multi data centers within the same enterprise as well as connecting to the cloud. That's probably counterintuitive for some people to think that that's something that Cisco is excited about and supporting. So I wonder if you can share, you know, kind of the market is changing. How you guys air reacting and really putting the things in place t to deliver customer choice. >>Yeah, I know. It's actually to me. It's really not counterintuitive, because in the end, what what I'm focusing on and the company's focus on is what our customers want to do. I need to do on. That's really, um, would you know most people call hybrid cloud or multi cloud in the end. What what? This is really the ability to have the flexibility to move your workloads where you want him to be, and they have different reasons why you want to place them right. You might have placed them for security reason you might have placed for clients reason, depending on which customer segment you're after? If you're in the United States or in Europe, In Asia there are a lot of different reasons we're gonna put your things. And so I think in the end, what on enterprise looks for is that agility, flexibility and resiliency. And and so really, what you want to put in place is what we call like a cloud on ramp, right? You need to have an ability to move sings as needed. But the larger context action which we see in the last couple of months accelerating, is really this whole seem around digital transformation, which goes hand in hand. Then, was the requirement on the Teesside really do? And I t operations transformation, Right? How I t operates on. I think that's really exciting to see. And this is actually a lot off my discussions. I was customers. What does it actually mean with respect to the I T organization? And what are the operational changes? There's a lot of our customers they're going through, quite frankly, accelerated going through >>right and and automation is in the title of the event. So automation is, you know, is an increasingly important thing. You know, as the way No. And we hear all the time. You know, the flows of data, the complexity of the data, either the on the security or the way the networks moving or, as you said, shifting workloads around based on dynamic situations. Whether that's business security, etcetera, you too suffer defined networking has been around for a while. How are you seeing kind of this evolution in and adding mawr automation, You know, to more and more processes to free up those those, um, kind of limited resource is in terms of really skilled people to focus on the things that they should be focused on and not stuff that that hopefully you can, you know, get a machine to run with some level of automation. >>Yeah, Yeah, that's a good point. And it said the tech line a half you know, sometimes in my mind is really going from cloud ready, which is in most of infrastructures today to cloud native. And so let me a little expand on. This right is like the cloud ready is basically what we have put in place over the last 5 to 6 years. All the infrastructure that our customers have network infrastructure. All the Nexus 9000. There are cloud ready right now. What this really means. You have a P ice everywhere, right? Whether this is on the box, whether it's on the controller, whether this is on the operations tools, all of these a p i n neighbor. And that's just the foundation for automation, right? You have to have that now. The next step really is what do you do with that capability and right? And this is the integration with a lot off automation tools on. That's the whole range, right? This is where the I t operation transformation kicks in. Different customers a different speed, right? Some just You know, I used these AP ice and use normal tools that they have in the network world just to pull information. Some customers go for further and saying, I want to integrate this with, like some seed individuals. Some go even further and saying This is like the cloud native people saying, Oh, I want to use, let's say, redhead answerable. I want to use how she called terra form and use those things to actually drive how I manage my infrastructure. And so that's really the combination of the automation capability plus the integration was relevant cloud native enabling tools that really is happening. At this point. We're seeing customers accelerating that that motion, which really then tribes, is how they run their I t operations. And so that's a pretty exciting, exciting area to see given. As I said, we have the infrastructure in place. There's no need for customers. Actually do change something. Most of them have already the infrastructures that could do this. There's just no doing the operation change the process changes to actually get there, >>right? It's funny we we recently covered, you know, pager duty. And they highlight which you just talked about. The cloud native, which is, you know, all of these applications now were so interdependent on all these different a p I s, you know, pulling data from all these applications. So a when they work great, it's terrific. But if there's a problem, you know there's a whole lot of potential throats to choke out there and find. Find those issues, and it's all being connected via the network. So, you know, it's even mawr critically important not only for the application but for all these little tiny components within the application to deliver. You know, ultimately a customer experience within very small units of time s so that you don't lose that customer. You complete that transaction, they check out of the shopping cart. You know all these? We have these things that are now created with cloud native applications that just couldn't really do before. >>No, you're absolutely right. And this is like I just said, I'm actually very excited because it opens up a lot off abilities for our customers how they want to actually structure the operation, right? One of the nice things around this whole automation, plus, uh, true integration closer to integration is you actually open this up now, this whole automation trained not just to the network operations person, right? You also open it up and can use this for the sake of this person or for the death of a person or for the cloud tops engineering team. Right? Because the way it's structured the way we built this, um, it's literally it's an A P I interface, and you can now decide what is your process? Do you wanna have on what traditional process you have a request number. Corporation teams executes request using these tools and then hands it back over or you say, Hey, maybe some of these security things I gotta hand over the Cyclops team and they can directly call these days a piece, right or even one step further. You can have the opportunity that the death of the application team actually says, Hey, I got to write a whole infrastructure as code kind of a script or template and I just execute right And it's really just using what the infrastructure provides. And so that whole range off different user roles in our customer base. What they can do with the automation capability that's available. It's just very, very exciting, right, because it's literally unleashes a lot of flexibility, how they want to structure and how they wanna rebuild the I T operations processes. >>That's interesting, you know, because the you know the Dev ops culture has taken over a lot. Right obviously changed software programming for the last 20 years, and and I think you know there's a There's a lot of just kind of the concept of Dev ops versus necessarily, you know, the actual things that you do to execute that technique. And I don't think most people would think of, you know, network ops or netapp. You know, whatever the equivalent is the networking world toe have, you know, kind of a fast changing dynamic kind of point of view versus a You know, stick it in, you know, spec it, stick it in, lock it down. So I wonder if you can You can share how, you know, kind of that, Dev ops, um attitude, point of view, workflow, whatever the right verb is has impacted, you know, things that Cisco and the way you guys think about networking and flexibility within the networking world. >>Yeah, literally. Absolutely. And again, it's all customer driven, right? Is none of this. None of this is really actually, you know, a little bit of credit. Maybe some of us where we have a vision, but a lot of this just customer driven feedback. Uh, yeah, we we do have even network operations teams comes to saying, Hey, we use answerable heavily on the computer side. We might use this for for seven. We want to use the same for networking. And so we made available all these integrations with the variety of state. Whether these are the switches, whether it's our A, C and D C and controller or our Martha said orchestration capabilities, all of these has answerable integration away. All right, The other one is you mentioned how she from Cherepkov telephone. We have integrations available and they see the request for these tools to use that on DSO. That is emotion We're in for over a year now. And another block, actually, that's out there. We're just supposed to saying you all set what you can do on then in parallel to this, right? Just making the integration available. We also have a very, very heavy focus on on definite and enablement and training on, you know, a little pluck. And I know probably part of the segment. The whole definite community that Cisco has is very, very vibrant. Uh, and the beauty off this is right. If you look at this, whether your naps person or a deaf person or seconds person doesn't really matter, there's a lot of like capability available to just help you get going or go from one level to the next level. Right. And there's simple things, like sandbox environments where you can, you know, without stress, try things out. Snippets of code A there you can do all of these things. And so we do see, it's a kind of a push and pull a tremendous amount of interest and the tremendous, uh, time people spend to learn, quite frankly. And that's another side product off. You know, the situation wherein people sit home and say Okay, online learning is the thing so thes, thes thes tools they used very heavily, >>right? So that's awesome. Because, you know, we've we've had Suzy we on a number of times. And I know he and Mandy and the team right, really built this definite thing. And it really follows along this other theme that we see consistently across other pieces of tech, which is democratization right? Democratization to the access tool, taking it out of of just the mahogany row with again really limited number of people that know how to make it work and and could make changes in opening up to a software defined world where now that you know, it's his application centric point of view, where the people that are building the APs to go create competitive advantage now Don't have to wait for, you know, the one network person to help him out of these environments. Really interesting. I wonder if you know, when you look at what's happened with Public Cloud and how they kind of changed the buying parameter, how they kind of changed the the the degree of difficulty to get projects started. You know how you guys have kind of integrated that that type of thought process to make it easier for app developers to get their job done? >>Yeah, I mean, again, it's it's I took a look at this more from from a customer answer. It's the transformation process, and it always starts is I want agility. I want flexibility. Everyone resiliency, right. This is where we talked to a business owner what they're looking for, and then it translates into into a night operations process, right? Your strategy needs to map them. How you actually do this on that Just strikes. Then what truths do you want to have available to actually enable this? Right? And the enablement again is for different roles. Right? There is. You need to give sing services to the app developer and, uh the platform team in the security right to your point. So the network, uh, can act at the same speed. But you also give tools to the network operations teams because they need thio adjust. And they have the ability to react thio to some of these requirements. Right? And it's not just automation. I think we we focused on that. But there's also to your point, the need how to extend between data sent us, you know, just just for backup and recovery. And how do I extend into public clouds? Right. Uh, in the end, that's Ah, that's the network connectivity problem. And we have soft us. We have made us available. We have integrations into, uh, W s. We have integrations into azure to actually make this very easy from a from a network perspective to extend your private domains private networks into virtual private networks on on these public cloud. So from an app developer perspective, now it looks like he's on the same network. It's a protective enterprise network. Some of it might sit here, someone might sit here, but it's really looking the same. And that's really in the end, I think. What what a business looks at right. They don't necessarily want to say I need to have something separate for this deployment was a separate for that deployment. What they want is I need to deploy something. E need to do this resilient in the resilient way in an enjoyable way. Give me the tools. And so that's really where we focused, Um, and what we're driving right? It's that combination of automation consistently and then definite tools available that we support. But they're all open. Uh, there are standard tools. The ones I mentioned right that everybody is using. So you're not getting into this, So that's a specific to Cisco. Uh, it's really democratization. I actually like the term. Yeah, >>it's It's a great terminate, and it's it's really interesting, especially with with the A p i s and the way everything is so tight together that everyone kind of has to enable this because that's what the customers demanding. Um, and it is all about the applications and workloads, and one of those things are moving, but they don't really wanna manage that. They just wanna, you know, deliver business, benefit to their customers and respond Thio, You know competitive threats in the marketplace, etcetera. So it's really an interesting time for the infrastructure, you know, to really support kind of. This at first point of view versus the other way around is kind of what it used to be and and enable this hyper fast development, hyper fast change and in the competitive landscape, or else you will be left behind. Um, so super important stuff. >>Yeah. No, I totally agree. And as I said, I mean, it's it's kind of interesting because we we started on the Cisco Data Center side we started. It's probably six or seven years ago, uh, when we when we named the applications centric. Clearly, a lot of these concepts evolved, but in a sense it is. That reversal of the role from the network provides something, and you used Teoh. This is what I want to do. And I need a service thinking on the networking side to explosives that can be consumed, and so that clearly is playing out and said automation is a key key foundation that we put in place in our customers. Most of our customers this point on these on these products, uh, they have all the capabilities there, they can literally take advantage. There's really nothing that stops them point. >>Well, it's good times for you because I'm sure you've seen all the memes in in in social media, right? What's driving your digital transformation? Is that the CEO, the CMO or cove it? And we all know the answer to the question, so I don't think the pace of change is going to slow down any time soon. So for keeping the network up and enabling us all the get done, what we have to get done and and all the little magic that happens behind the scenes >>Yeah, no thanks. Thanks for having me. And again. Yeah, if you're listening and you're wondering, how do I get started? Cisco Definite. It's the place to go. It's, you know, fantastic, fantastic environment. And I highly recommend everybody roll up your sleeve and you know the best reasons you can have. >>Yeah, and we know once the physical events come back, we've been toe definite, create a bunch of times, and it's a super vibrant, super excited, really engaged community. Sharing lots of information is kind of that's still kind of that early vibe. You know where everyone is is still really enthusiastic and really about learning and sharing information. So, you know, like this using the team were really built a great thing. And we're happy to continue to cover it. And eventually we'll be back face to face. >>Okay, Look forward to that as well. >>All right, Thanks. He's Thomason. Jeff, you're watching Continuing coverage of Cisco. Definite accelerating with automation and program ability. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.

>>Hello everyone. This is Dave Volante, and I want to welcome you to the cubes presentation of accelerating automation with Devon it in this special program, we're going to explore how to accelerate digital transformation and how the global pandemic is changing the way we work and the kinds of work that we do, the cube has pulled together experts from Cisco dev net. Now dev net is essentially Cisco as code. I've said many times in the cube that in my opinion, it's the most impressive initiative coming out of any established enterprise infrastructure company. What Cisco has done brilliantly with dev net is to create an API economy by leveraging its large infrastructure portfolio and its ecosystem. But the linchpin of dev net is the army of trained Cisco engineers, including those with the elite CC I E designation. Now dev net was conceived to train people on how to code infrastructure and develop applications in integrations. >>It's a platform to create new value and automation is a key to that creativity. So today you're going to hear from a number of experts. For example, TK key Anini is a distinguished engineer and a security pro. He's going to join us, his colleagues, Thomas Scheiber and Joe Vaccaro. They're going to help us understand how to apply automation to your data center networks, cloud, and security journeys. Cisco's Eric nip and Coon Jacobs will also be here with a look into Cisco's marketplace shifts. We'll also hear from dev net partners. Now let's kick things off with the architect of dev net, senior vice president and general manager of Cisco's dev net and CX ecosystem success. Susie, we roam around the globe. It's the cube presenting >>Decelerating automation with damnit >>Brought to you by Cisco. >>Hello and welcome to the cube. I'm Sean for a year host. We've got a great conversation, a virtual event, accelerating automation with dev net, Cisco dev net. And of course we got the Cisco brain trust here, our cube alumni, Susie wee vice president, senior vice president GM, and also CTO of Cisco dev net and ecosystem success CX, all that great stuff. Any Wade Lee, who's the director, a senior director of dev net certifications, Eric field, director of developer advocacy, Susie Mandy, Eric. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. Great to see you, John. So we're not in first, then we don't, can't be at the dev net zone. We can't be on site doing dev net, create all the great stuff we've been doing over the past few years. We're virtual the cube virtual. Thanks for coming on. Uh, Susie, I got to ask you because you know, we've been talking years ago when you started this mission and just the success you had has been awesome, but dev net create has brought on a whole nother connective tissue to the dev net community. This is what this ties into the theme, accelerating automation with dev net, because you said to me, I think four years ago, everything should be a service or X, a AAS as it's called and automation plays a critical role. Um, could you please share your vision because this is really important and still only five to 10% of the enterprises have containerized things. So there's a huge growth curve coming with developing and programmability. What's your, what's your vision? >>Yeah, absolutely. I mean, what we know is that as more and more businesses are coming online as well, I mean, they're all online, but as they're growing into the cloud is they're growing in new areas. As we're dealing with security is everyone's dealing with the pandemic. There's so many things going on, but what happens is there's an infrastructure that all of this is built on and that infrastructure has networking. It has security, it has all of your compute and everything that's in there. And what matters is how can you take a business application and tie it to that infrastructure? How can you take, you know, customer data? How can you take business applications? How can you connect up the world securely and then be able to, you know, really satisfy everything that businesses need. And in order to do that, you know, the whole new tool that we've always talked about is that the network is programmable. The infrastructure is programmable and you don't need just apps writing on top, but now they get to use all of that power of the infrastructure to perform even better. And in order to get there, what you need to do is automate everything. You can't configure networks manually. You can't be manually figuring out policies, but you want to use that agile infrastructure in which you can really use automation. You can rise to higher level business processes and tie all of that up and down the staff by leveraging automation. >>You know, I remember a few years ago when dev net created for started, I interviewed Todd Nightingale and we were talking about Meraki, you know, not to get in the weeds, but you know, switches and hubs and wireless. But if you look at what we were talking about, then this is kind of what's going on now. And we were just recently, I think our last physical event was a Cisco, um, uh, Europe in Barcelona before all the covert hit. And you had this massive cloud surgeon scale happening going on, right when the pandemic hit. And even now more than ever the cloud scale, the modern apps, the momentum hasn't stopped because there's more pressure now to continue addressing more innovation at scale because the pressure to do that, um, cause the business to stay alive and to get your thoughts on, um, what's going on in your world because you were there in person now we're six months in scale is huge. >>We are. Yeah, absolutely. And what happened is as all of our customers, as businesses around the world, as we ourselves all dealt with, how do we run a business from home? You know, how do we keep people safe? How do we keep people at home and how do we work? And then it turns out, you know, business keeps rolling, but we've had to automate even more because you have to go home and then figure out how from home, can I make sure that my it infrastructure is automated out from home? Can I make sure that every employee is out there working safely and securely, you know, things like call center workers, which had to go into physical locations and be in kind of, you know, just, you know, uh, blocked off rooms to really be secure with their company's information. They had to work from home. >>So we had to extend business applications to people's homes, uh, in countries like, you know, well around the world, but also in India where it was actually not, you know, not, they wouldn't let, they didn't have rules to let people work from home in these areas. So then what we had to do was automate everything and make sure that we could administer, you know, all of our customers could administer these systems from home. So that put extra stress on automation. It put extra stress on our customer's digital transformation and it just forced them to, you know, automate digitally, transform quicker. And they had to, because you couldn't just go into a server room and tweak your servers, you had to figure out how to automate all of that. And we're still all in that environment today. >>You know, one of the hottest trends before the pandemic was observability, uh, Coobernetti's serve, uh, microservices. So those things, again, all dev ops and you know, you guys got some acquisitions youth about thousand eyes. Um, um, you got a new one you just bought, um, recently port shift to raise the game and security, Kubernetes, all these microservices. So observability super hot, but then people go work at home. As you mentioned, how do you observe, what are you observing? The network is under a huge pressure. I mean, it's crashing on people's zooms and WebExes and, uh, education, huge amount of network pressure. How are people adapting to this and the app side? How are you guys looking at the what's being programmed? What are some of the things that you're seeing with use cases around this program? Ability, challenge and observability challenges. It's a huge deal. >>Yeah, absolutely. And, um, you know, going back to Todd Nightingale, right. You know, back when we talked to Todd before he had Meraki and he had designed this simplicity, this ease of use this cloud managed, you know, doing everything from one central place. And now he has Cisco's entire enterprise and cloud business. So he is now applying that at that bigger, at that bigger scale for Cisco and for our customers. And he is building in the observability and the dashboards and the automation of the API APIs into all of it. Um, but when we take a look at what our customers needed is again, they had to build it all in. Um, they had to build it. And what happened was how your network was doing, how secure your infrastructure was, how well you could enable people to work from home and how well you could reach customers. >>All of that used to be an it conversation. It became a CEO and a board level conversation. So all of a sudden CEOs were actually, you know, calling on the heads of it and the CIO and saying, you know, how's our VPN connectivity is everybody working from home, how many people are connected and able to work and what's their productivity. So all of a sudden, all these things that were really infrastructure, it stuff became a board level conversation. And, you know, once again, at first everybody was panicked and just figuring out how to get people. But now what we've seen in all of our customers is that they are now building in automation and digital transformation and these architectures, and that gives them a chance to build in that observability, you know, looking for those events, the dashboards, you know, so it really has, has been fantastic to see what our customers are doing and what our partners are doing to really rise to that next level. >>I know you got to go, but real quick, um, describe what accelerating automation with dev net means. >>Well, you've been following, you know, we've been working together on dev net and the vision of the infrastructure programmability and everything for quite some time. And the thing that's really happened is yes, you need to automate, but yes, it takes people to do that and you need the right skill sets and the programmability. So a networker can't be a networker. A networker has to be a network automation developer. And so it is about people and it is about bringing infrastructure expertise together with software expertise and letting people run things are definite community has risen to this challenge. Um, people have jumped in, they've gotten their certifications. We have thousands of people getting certified. Uh, you know, we have, you know, Cisco getting certified. We have individuals, we have partners, you know, they're just really rising to the occasion. So accelerate, accelerating automation while it is about going digital. It's also about people rising to the level of, you know, being able to put infrastructure and software expertise together to enable this next chapter of business applications of, you know, cloud directed businesses and cloud growth. So it actually is about people just as much as it is about automation and technology. >>And we got dev net created right around the corner of virtual unfortunate. Won't be in person, but we'll be virtual. Susie. Thank you for your time. We're going to dig into those people, challenges with Mandy and Eric. Thank you for coming on. I know you got to go, but stay with us. We're going to dig in with Mandy and Eric. Thanks. >>Thank you so much. Have fun. Thanks John. >>Okay. Mandy, you heard Susie is about people. And one of the things that's close to your heart you've been driving is a senior director of dev net certifications, um, is getting people leveled up. I mean the demand for skills, cybersecurity network, programmability automation, network design solution architect, cloud multi-cloud design. These are new skills that are needed. Can you give us the update on what you're doing to help people get into the acceleration of automation game? >>Oh yes, absolutely. The, you know, what we've been seeing is a lot of those business drivers that Susie was mentioning, those are, what's accelerating a lot of the technology changes and that's creating new job roles or new needs on existing job roles where they need new skills. We are seeing customers, partners, people in our community really starting to look at, you know, things like DevSecOps engineer, network, automation, engineer, network automation, which Susie >>Mentioned, and looking at how these fit into their organization, the problems that they solve in their organization. And then how do people build the skills to be able to take on these new job roles or add that job role to their current scope and broaden out and take on new challenges. >>Eric, I want to go to you for a quick second on this, um, um, piece of getting the certifications. Um, first, before you get started, describe what your role is as director of developer advocacy, because that's always changing and evolving. What's the state of it now because with COVID people are working at home, they have more time to contact, switch and get some certifications and that they can code more. What's your, what's your role? >>Absolutely. So it's interesting. It definitely is changing a lot. A lot of our historically a lot of focus for my team has been on those outward events. So going to the Devin that creates the Cisco lives and helping the community connect and to help share tech mountain technical information with them, um, doing hands on workshops and really getting people into how do you really start solving these problems? Um, so that's had to pivot quite a bit. Um, obviously Cisco live us. We committed very quickly to a virtual event when, when conditions changed and we're able to actually connect as we found out with a much larger audience. So, you know, as opposed to in person where you're bound by the parameters of, you know, how big the convention center is, uh, we were actually able to reach a worldwide audience with our, uh, our definite date that was kind of attached on to Cisco live. >>And we got great feedback from the audience that now we're actually able to get that same enablement out to so many more people that otherwise might not have been able to make it. Um, but to your broader question of, you know, what my team does. So that's one piece of it is getting that information out to the community. So as part of that, there's a lot of other things we do as well. We were always helping out build new sandboxes and your learning labs, things like that, that they can come and get whenever they're looking for it out on the dev net site. And then my team also looks after community, such as the Cisco learning network where this there's a huge community that has historically been there to support people working on their Cisco certifications. And we've seen a huge shift now in that group that all of the people that have been there for years are now looking at the domain certifications and helping other people that are trying to get on board with programmability. They're taking a lot of those same community enablement skills and propping up the community with, you know, helping you answer questions, helping provide content. They've moved now into the dev net space as well, and are helping people with that servicer. So it's great seeing the community come along and really see that >>I got to ask you on the trends around automation, what skills and what developer patterns are you seeing with automation? Are, is there anything in particular, obviously network automation has been around for a long time. Cisco has been leader in that, but as you move up, the stack as modern applications are building, do you see any patterns or trends around what is accelerating automation? What are people learning? Yeah, absolutely. >>So you mentioned, uh, observability was big before COVID and we actually really saw that amplified during COVID. So a lot of people have come to us looking for insights. How can I get that better observability, uh, now that we needed? Well, we're virtual. Um, so that's actually been a huge uptake and we've seen a lot of people that weren't necessarily out looking for things before that are now figuring out how can I do this at scale? And I think one good example that, uh, Susie was talking about the VPN example, and we actually had a number of SES in the Cisco community that had customers dealing with that very thing where they very quickly had to ramp up. And one in particular actually wrote a bunch of automation to go out and measure all of the different parameters that it departments might care about, about their firewalls, things that you do normally look at me all days, you would size your firewalls based on, you know, assuming a certain number of people working from home. >>And when that number went to a hundred percent things like licensing started coming into play, where they needed to make sure they had the right capacity in their platforms that they weren't necessarily designed for. So one of the STDs actually wrote a bunch of code to go out, use some open source tooling, to monitor and alert on these things and then published it. So the whole community could go out and get a copy of it, try it out their own environment. And we saw a lot of interest around that and trying to figure out, okay, now I can take that and I can adapt it to what I need to see for my observability. >>That's great. Mandy. I want to get your thoughts on this too, because as automation continues to scale, it's going to be a focus and people are at home and you guys had a lot of content online for you recorded every session that didn't the dev Ned zone learnings going on, sometimes linearly. And nonlinearly you got the certifications, which is great. That's key, key, great success there. People are interested, but what are the learnings? Are you seeing? What are people doing? What's the top top trends. >>Yeah. So what we're seeing is like you said, people are at home, they've got time. They want to advance their skillset. And just like any kind of learning people want choice because they want to be able to choose what's matches their time that's available and their learning style. So we're seeing some people who want to dive into full online study groups with mentors, leading them through a study plan. And we have two new, uh, expert led study groups like that. We're also seeing whole teams at different companies who want to do, uh, an immersive learning experience together, uh, with projects and office hours and things like that. And we have a new, um, offer that we've been putting together for people who want those kinds of team experiences called automation boot camp. And then we're also seeing individuals who want to be able to, you know, dive into a topic, do a hands on lab, get some skills, go to the rest of the day of do their work and then come back the next day. >>And so we have really modular self-driven hands on learning through the dev net fundamentals course, which is available through dev net. And then there's also people who are saying, I just want to use the technology. I like to experiment and then go, you know, read the instructions, read the manual, do the deeper learning. And so they're, they're spending a lot of time in our dev net sandbox, trying out different technologies, Cisco technologies with open source technologies, getting hands on and building things. And three areas where we're seeing a lot of interest in specific technologies. One is around SD wan. There's a huge interest in people skilling up there because of all the reasons that we've been talking about security is a focus area where people are dealing with new scale, new kinds of threats, having to deal with them in new ways and then automating their data center, using infrastructure as code type principles. So those are three areas where we're seeing a lot of interest and you'll be hearing some more about that at dev net create >>Awesome. Eric and Mandy, if you guys can wrap up, um, this accelerated automation with dev net package and a virtual event here, um, and also tee up dev net create because dev net create has been a very kind of grassroots, organically building momentum over the years. Again, it's super important cause it's now the app world coming together with networking, you know, end to end programmability and with everything as a service that you guys are doing everything with API APIs, um, only can imagine the enablement that's gonna name, uh, create, can you share the summary real quick on accelerating automation with, at and T up dev net create Mandy we'll start. Yeah. >>Yes. I'll go first. And then Eric can close this out. Um, so just like we've been talking about with you at every definite event over the past years, you know, that's bringing APIs across our whole portfolio and up and down the stack and accelerating, uh, automation with dev net. Susie mentioned the people aspect of that. The people skilling up and how that transformed teams, transforms teams. And I think that it's all connected in how businesses are being pushed on their transformation because of current events. That's also a great opportunity for people to advance their careers and take advantage of some of that quickly changing landscape. And so what I think about accelerating automation with dev net, it's about the dev community. It's about people getting those new skills and all the creativity and problem solving that will be unleashed by that community. With those new skills. >>Eric take us home. He accelerating automation, dev net and dev net create a lot of developer action going on in cloud native right now, your thoughts? >>Absolutely. I think it's exciting. I mentioned the transition to virtual for Devin that day, this year for Cisco live. And we're seeing, we're able to leverage it even further with creative this year. So, whereas it used to be, you know, confined by the walls that we were within for the event. Now we're actually able to do things like we're adding the start now track for people that want to be there. They want to be a developer, a network automation developer, for instance, we've now got attract just for them where they can get started and start learning. Some of the skills they'll need, even if some of the other technical sessions were a little bit deeper than what they were ready for. Um, so I love that we're able to bring that together with the experienced community that we usually do from across the industry, bringing us all kinds of innovative talks, talking about ways that they're leveraging technology, leveraging the cloud, to do new and interesting things to solve their business challenges. >>So I'm really excited to bring that whole mix together, as well as getting some of our business units together too, and talk straight from their engineering departments. What are they doing? What are they seeing? What are they thinking about when they're building new APIs into their platforms? What are the, what problems are they hoping that customers will be able to solve with them? So I think together seeing all of that and then bringing the community together from all of our usual channels. So like I said, Cisco learning network, we've got a ton of community coming together, sharing their ideas and helping each other grow those skills. I see nothing but acceleration ahead of us for automation. >>Awesome. Thanks so much, God, man, you can add, add one more thing. >>I'm just going to say the other really exciting thing about create this year with the virtual nature of it is it it's happening in three regions and um, you know, we're so excited to see the people joining from all the different regions and uh, content and speakers and the region stepping up to have things personalized to their area, to their community. And so that's a whole new experience for them that create that's going to be fantastic this year. Yeah. >>I was just gonna close out and just put the final bow on that by saying that you guys have always been successful with great content focused on the people in the community. I think now during what this virtual dev net virtual dev net create virtual, the cube virtual, I think we're learning new things. People working in teams and groups and sharing content, we're going to learn new things. We're going to try new things and ultimately people will rise up and we'll be resilient. I think when you have this kind of opportunity, it's really fun. And we'll, we'll, we'll ride the wave with you guys. So thank you so much for taking the time to come on the cube and talk about your awesome accelerating automation and dev net. Great. Looking forward to it. Thank you. >>Yeah. >>The cube virtual here in Palo Alto studios doing the remote content amendment say virtual until we're face to face. Thank you so much for watching and we'll see you at dev net create thanks for watching Jeffrey here with the cube. Uh, we have our ongoing coverage of the Cisco dev net event. It's really accelerating with automation and programmability in the new normal, and we know the new normal is definitely continuing to go. We've been doing this since the middle of March and now we're in October. So we're excited to have our next guest he's Thomas Sheba. He is the vice president of product management for data center for Cisco Thomas. Great to see you. >>Hey, good to see you too. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody can see on our background. >>Exactly, exactly. So, I mean, I'm curious, we've talked to a lot of people. We talked to a lot of leaders, you know, especially like back in March and April with this light moment, which was, >>You know, no time to prep and suddenly everybody has to work from home. Teachers got to teach from home. And so you've got the kids home, you've got the spouse home, everybody's home trying to get on the network and do their zoom calls and their classes. I'm curious from your perspective, you guys are right there on the, on the network you're right in the infrastructure. What did you hear and see kind of from your customers when suddenly, you know, March 16th hit and everybody had to go home? >>Well, good point, Hey, I do think we all appreciate the network much more than we used to do before. Uh, and then the only other difference is I'm really more on WebEx calls to zoom calls, but you know, otherwise, uh, yes. Um, what, what I do see actually is that as I said, network becomes much more obvious as a critical piece. And so before we really talked a lot about, uh, agility and flexibility these days, we talk much more about resiliency quite frankly. Uh, and what do I need to have in place with respect to network to get my things from left to right. And you know, it was 2000, he still West, as we say on the data center. Uh, and that just is for most of my customers, a very, very important topic at this point. Right. >>You know, it's, it's amazing to think, you know, had this happened, you know, five years ago, 10 years ago, you know, the ability for so many people in, in, in the information industry to be able to actually make that transition relatively seamlessly, uh, is, is actually pretty amazing. I'm sure there was some, some excitement and some kudos in terms of, you know, it, it is all based on the network and it is kind of this quiet thing in the background that nobody pays attention to. It's like a ref in the football game until they make a bad play. So, you know, it is pretty fascinating that you and your colleagues have put this infrastructure and that enabled us to really make that move with, with, with really no prep, no planning and actually have a whole lot of services delivered into our homes that we're used to getting at the office are used to getting at school. >>Yeah. And I mean, to your point, I mean, some of us did some planning. Can we clearly talking about some of these, these trends in the way I look at this trends as being distributed data centers and, um, having the ability to move your, your workloads and access for users to wherever you want to be. And so I think that clearly went on for a while. And so in a sense, we, we, we prep was, are normal, but we're prepping for it. Um, but as I said, resiliency just became so much more important than, you know, one of the things I actually do a little plot, a little, little, uh, Bret before a block I put out end of August around resiliency. Uh, you, you, if you didn't, if you didn't put this in place, you better put it in place. Because I think as we all know, we saw her March. This is like maybe two or three months, we're now in October. Um, and I sing, this is the new normal for some time being. >>Yeah, I think so. So let's stick on that theme in terms of trends, right? The other great trend as public cloud, um, and cloud and multi cloud, there's all types of variants on that theme you had in that blog post about, uh, resiliency in data center, cloud networking, data center cloud, you know, some people think, wait, it's, it's kind of an either, or I either got my data center or I've got my stuff in the cloud and I've got public cloud. And then as I said, hybrid cloud, you're talking really specifically about enabling, um, both inner inner data center resiliency within multi data centers within the same enterprise, as well as connecting to the cloud. That's probably counterintuitive for some people to think that that's something that Cisco is excited about and supporting. So I wonder if you can share, you know, kind of how the market is changing, how you guys are reacting and really putting the things in place to deliver customer choice. >>Yeah, no, it's actually, to me it's really not a counterintuitive because in the end was what, uh, I'm focusing on. And the company is focusing on is what our customers want to do and need to do. Uh, and that's really, um, would, you know, most people call hybrid cloud or multi-cloud, uh, in, in the end, what it is, what it is, is really the ability to have the flexibility to move your workloads where you want them to be. And there are different reasons why you want to place them, right? You might've placed them for security reasons. You might've played some clients reasons, depending on which customer segment you after, if you're in the United States or in Europe or in Asia, there are a lot of different reasons where you're going to put your things. And so I think in the end, what, uh, an enterprise looks for is that agility, flexibility, and resiliency. >>And so really what you want to put in place is what we call like the cloud on ramp, right? You need to have an ability to move sings as needed, but the logic context section, which we see in the, um, last couple of months, accelerating is really this whole seam around digital transformation, uh, which goes hand in hand then was, uh, the requirement on the at T side really do. And I T operations transformation, right. How it operates. Uh, and I think that's really exciting to see, and this is excellent. Well, a lot of my discussions, I was customers, uh, what does it actually mean with respect to the it organization and what are the operational changes? This a lot of our customers are going through quite frankly, accelerated right. Going through, >>Right. And, and automation is in the title of the event. So automation is, you know, is an increasingly important thing, you know, as the, as we know, and we hear all the time, you know, the flows of data, the complexity of the data, either on the security or the way the network's moving, or as you said, shifting workloads around, based on the dynamic situations, whether that's business security, et cetera, in a software defined networking has been around for a while. How are you seeing kind of this evolution in adding more automation, you know, to more and more processes to free up those, those, um, no kind of limited resources in terms of really skilled people to focus on the things that they should be focusing and not stuff that, that hopefully you can, you know, get a machine to run with some level of automation. Yeah. >>Yeah. That's a good point. And it said the tech line, I have, you know, sometimes when my mind is really going from a cloud ready, which has in most of the infrastructure is today to cloud native. And so let me a little expand on those, right? There's like the cloud ready is basically what we have put in place over the last five to six years, all the infrastructure that all our customers have, network infrastructure, all the nexus 9,000, they're all cloud ready. Right. And what this really means, do you have API APIs everywhere, right? Whether this is on the box, whether it's on the controller, whether this is on the operations tools, all of these are API enabled and that's just a foundation for automation, right? You have to have that. Now, the next step really is what do you do with that capability? Right? >>And this is the integration with a lot of automation tools. Uh, and that's a whole range, right? This is where the it operation transformation kicks in different customers at different speed, right? Some just, you know, I use these API APIs and use normal tools that they have in a network world just to pull information. Some customers go for it further and saying, I want to integrate this with like some CMDB tools. Some go even further and saying, this is like the cloud native pieces saying, Oh, I want to use, let's say red hat Ansible. I want to use, uh, how she called Terraform and use those things to actually drive how I manage my infrastructure. And so that's really the combination of the automation capability. Plus the integration was relevant cloud native enabling tools that really is happening at this point. We're seeing customers accelerating that, that motion, which really then drives us how they run their it operations. Right. And so that's a pretty exciting, exciting area to see, uh, giving us, I said, we have the infrastructure in place. There's no need for customers to actually do change something. Most of them have already the infrastructures that can do this is just no doing the operational change. The process changes to actually get there. >>Right. And it's funny, we, we recently covered, you know, PagerDuty and, and they highlight what you just talked about, the cloud native, which is, you know, all of these applications now are so interdependent on all these different API APIs, you know, pulling data from all these applications. So a, when they work great, it's terrific. But if there's a problem, you know, there's a whole lot of potential throats to choke out there and find, find those issues. And it's all being connected via the network. So, you know, it's even more critically important, not only for the application, but for all these little tiny components within the application to deliver, you know, ultimately a customer experience within a very small units of time, uh, so that you don't lose that customer or you, you complete that transaction. They, they check out of their shopping cart. You know, all these, these things that are now created with cloud native applications that just couldn't really do before. >>No, you're absolutely right. And that's, this is like, just to say, sit, I'm actually very excited because it opens up a lot of abilities for our customers, how they to actually structure the operation. Right. One of the nice things around this or automation plus a tool integration to an integration is you actually opened us up, not a sole automation train, not just to the network operations personnel. Right. You also open it up and can use this for the SecOps person or for the dev ops person or for the cloud ops engineering team. Right. Because the way it's structured, the way we built this, um, it's literally as an API interface and you can now decide, what is your process do you want to have? And what traditional process you have a request network, operation teams executes the request using these tools and then hand it back over. >>Or do you say, Hey, maybe some of these security things I gotta hand over the sec ups team and they can directly call, uh, these, these API is right, or even one step further. You can have the opportunity that the dev ops or the application team actually says, Hey, I got to write a whole infrastructure as code kind of a script or template, and I just execute. Right. And it's really just using what the infrastructure provides. And so that whole range of different user roles and our customer base, what they can do with the automation capability that's available. It's just very, very exciting way because it's literally unleashes a lot of flexibility, how they want to structure and how they want to rebuild the it operations processes. >>Interesting. You know, cause the, you know, the DevOps culture has taken over a lot, right. Obviously changed software programming for the last 20 years. And, and I think, you know, there's a, there's a lot of just kind of the concept of dev ops versus necessarily, you know, the actual things that you do to execute that technique. And I don't think most people would think of, you know, network ops or, you know, net ops, you know, whatever the equivalent is in the networking world to have, you know, kind of a fast changing dynamic, uh, kind of point of view versus a, you know, stick it in, you know, spec it, stick it in, lock it down. So I wonder if you can, you can share how, you know, kind of that dev ops, um, attitude point of view, workflow, whatever the right verb is, has impacted, you know, things at Cisco and the way you guys think about networking and flexibility within the networking world. >>Yeah, literally, absolutely. And again, it's all customer driven, right? There's none of those, none of this is really actually, you know, a little bit of credit, maybe some of us where we have a vision, but a lot of it's just customer driven feedback. Uh, and yeah, we, we do have network operations teams comes from saying, Hey, we use Ansible heavily on the compute side, we might use this for alpha seven. We want to use the same for networking. And so we made available all these integrations, uh, with sobriety as a state, whether these are the switches, whether these are ACI dcnm controller or our multi-site orchestration capabilities, all of these has Ansible integration the way to the right, the other one, as I mentioned, that how she from Turco Terraform, we have integrations available and they see the requests for these tools to use that. >>Uh, and so that is the emotion we're in for all the, you know, and, uh, another block actually does out there, we just posted saying all set what you can do and then a Palo to this, right. Just making the integration available. We also have a very, very heavy focus on definite and enablement and training, uh, and you know, a little clock. And I know, uh, probably, uh, part of the segment, the whole definite community that Cisco has is very, very vibrant. Uh, and the beauty of this is right. If you look at those, whether you're a net ops person or a dev ops person or a SecOps person, it doesn't really matter. It has a lot of like capability available to just help you get going or go from one level to the next level. Right? And there's simple things like sandbox environments where you can, we know what's out stress, try sinks out snippets of code are there, you can do all of these things. And so we do see it's a kind of a push and pull a tremendous amount of interest and a tremendous, uh, uh, time people spend to learn quite frankly, then that's another site product of, of, you know, the situation where, and people said, Oh man, and say, okay, online learning is the thing. So these, these, these tools are used very, very heavily, right? >>That's awesome. Cause you know, we've, we've had Susie Lee on a number of times and I know he and Mandy and the team really built this dev net thing. And it really follows along this other theme that we see consistently across other pieces of tech, which is democratization, right democratization of the access tool, taking it out of, of just a mahogany row with, again, a really limited number of people that know how to make it work and it can make the changes and then opening it up to a software defined world where now that the, you know, the it's as application centric, point of view, where the people that are building the apps to go create competitive advantage. Now don't have to wait for, you know, the one network person to help them out in and out of these environments. Really interesting. And I wonder if, you know, when you look at what's happened with public cloud and how they kind of change the buying parameter, how they kind of change the degree of difficulty to get project started, you know, how you guys have kind of integrated that, that type of thought process to make it easier for app developers to get their job done. >>Yeah. I mean, again, it's, it's, uh, I typically look at this more from a, from a customer lens, right? It's the transformation process and it always starts as I want agility. I want flexibility. I want to resiliency, right? This is where we talk to a business owner, what they're looking for. And then that translates into, into an I, to operations process, right? Your strategy needs to map then how you actually do this. Uh, and that just drives then what tools do you want to have available to actually enable this? Right? And the enablement again is for different roles, right? There is you need to give sync services to the app developer and, uh, the, the platform team and the security team, right. To your point. So the network, uh, can act at the same speed, but you also give to us to the network operations teams because they need to adjust. >>Then they have the ability to react to, uh, to some of these requirements. Right. And it's just automation. I think we, we, we focused on that, but there's also to your point, the, the need, how do I extend between data centers? You know, just, just for backup and recovery and how do I extend into, into public clouds, right? Uh, and in the end, that's a, that's a network connectivity problem. Uh, and we have soft as, uh, we have made as available. We have integrations into, uh, AWS. We have integrations into a joy to actually make this very easy from a, from a network perspective to extend your private domains, private networks into which have private networks on these public clouds. So from an app development perspective, now it looks like he's on the same network. It's a protective enterprise network. Some of it might sit here. >>Some of it might sit here, but it's really looking the same. And that's really in the enticing. What, what a business looks at, right? They don't necessarily want to say, I need to have something separate for this deployment was a separate for that deployment. What they want is I need to deploy something. I need to do this resilient. And the resilient way in an agile way gives me the tools. And so that's really where we focused, um, and what we're driving, right? It's that combination of automation consistently, and then definite tools, uh, available that we support. Uh, but they're all open. Uh, they're all standard tools as the ones I mentioned, right. That everybody's using. So I'm not getting into this, Oh, this is specific to Cisco, right. Uh, it's really democratization. I actually liked your term. Yeah. >>It's a great terminate. And it's, it's really interesting, especially with, with the API APIs and the way everything is so tied together that everyone kind of has to enable this because that's what the customer is demanding. Um, and it is all about the applications and the workloads and where those things are moving, but they don't really want to manage that. They just want to, you know, deliver business benefit to their customers and respond to, uh, you know, competitive threats in the marketplace, et cetera. So it's really an interesting time for the infrastructure, you know, to really support kind of this app first point of view, uh, versus the other way around is kind of what it used to be and, and enable this hyper fast development hyper fast, uh, change in the competitive landscape or else you will be left behind. Um, so super important stuff. >>Yeah, no, I totally agree. And as I said, I mean, it's, it's kind of interesting because we, we started on a Cisco data center. So we started this probably six or seven years ago. Uh, when we, when we named the application centric, uh, clearly a lot of these concepts evolve, uh, but in a sense it is that reversal of the role from the network provides something and you use to, uh, this is what I want to do. And I need a service, uh, thinking on a networking side to expose. So as that can be consumed. And so that clearly is playing out. Um, and as I said, automation is a key key foundation that we put in place, uh, and our customers, most of our customers at this point, uh, on, on these products, >>They have all the capabilities there. They can literally take advantage. There's really nothing that stops them >>Good times for you, because I'm sure you've seen all the memes and social media, right? What what's driving your digital transformation. Is it the CEO, the CMO or COVID, and we all know the answer to the question. So I don't think the, the pace of change is going to slow down anytime soon. So keeping the network up and enabling us all to get done, what we have to get done and all the little magic that happens behind the scenes. >>Yeah. No thanks. Thanks for having me. And again, yeah. If you're listening and you're wondering, how do I get started Cisco? Definitely just the place to go. It's fantastic. Fantastic. And I highly recommend everybody roll up your sleeves, you know, the best reasons you can have. >>Yeah. And we know once the physical events come back, we've been to dev net create a bunch of times, and it's a super vibrant, super excited, but really engaged community sharing. Lots of information is kind of, it's still kind of that early vibe, you know, where everyone is still really enthusiastic and really about learning and sharing information. So I say Susie and the team are really built a great thing, and we're a, we're happy to continue to cover it. And eventually we'll be back, uh, face to face. >>Okay. I look forward to that as well. >>All right, thanks. Uh, he's Thomas I'm Jeff, you're watching continuing coverage of Cisco dev net accelerating with automation and programmability >>TK Kia. Nini is here. He's a distinguished engineer at Cisco TK, my friend. Good to see you again. How are you? Good. I mean, you and I were in Barcelona in January and, you know, we knew we saw this thing coming, but we didn't see it coming this way. Did we know that no one did, but yeah, that was right before everything happened. Well, it's weird. Right? I mean, we were, you know, we, we, it was in the back of our minds in January, we sort of had Barcelona's hasn't really been hit yet. It looked like it was really isolated in China, but, uh, but wow, what a change and I guess, I guess I'd say I'd start with the, we're seeing really a secular change in your space and security identity, access management, cloud security, endpoint security. I mean, all of a sudden these things explode as the work from home pivot has occurred. >>Uh, and it feels like these changes are permanent or semi-permanent, what are you seeing out there? Yeah, I don't, I don't think anybody thinks the world's going to go back the way it was. Um, to some degree it's, it's changed forever. Um, you know, I, I, I do a lot of my work remotely. Um, and, and so, you know, being a remote worker, isn't such a big deal for me, but for some, it was a huge impact. And like I said, you know, um, remote work, remote education, you know, everybody's on the opposite side, a computer. And so the digital infrastructure has just become a lot more important to protect. And the integrity of it essentially is almost our own integrity these days. >>Yeah. And when you see that, you know, that work from home pivot, I mean, you know, our estimates are along with a partner DTR about 16% of the workforce was at home working from home prior to COVID and now it's, you know, North of 70% plus, and that's going to come down maybe a little bit over the next six months. We'll see what happens with the fall surge, but, but people essentially accept, expect that to at least double that 16%, you know, going forward indefinitely. So how, what is that, what kind of pressure does that put on the security infrastructure and how, how organizations are approaching security? >>Yeah, I just think, uh, from a mindset standpoint, you know, what was optional, uh, maybe, um, last year, uh, is no longer optional and I don't think it's going to go back. Um, I think, I think a lot of people, uh, have changed the way, you know, they live and the way they work. Um, and they're doing it in ways, hopefully that in some cases, uh, yield more productivity, um, again, um, you know, usually with technology that's severely effective, it doesn't pick sides. So the security slant to it is it frankly works just as well for the bad guys. And so that's, that's the balance we need to keep, which is we need to be extra diligent, uh, on how we go about securing infrastructure, uh, how we go about securing even our social channels, because remember all our social channels now are digital. So that's, that's become the new norm. >>You know, you've helped me understand over the years. I remember a line you shared with me in the cube one time is that the adversary is highly capable, is sort of the phrase that you used. And essentially the way you describe it, as you know, your job as a security practitioner is to decrease the bad guy's return on investment, you know, increase their costs, increase the numerator, but as, as work shifts from home, yeah, I'm in my house, you know, my wifi in my, you know, router with my dog's name is the password. You know, it's much, much harder for me to, to increase that denominator at home. So how can you help? >>Yeah. I mean, it's, it is, it is truly, um, when you think, when you get into the mind of the adversary and, and, uh, you know, the cyber crime out there, they're honestly just like any other business they're trying to operate with high margin. And so if you can get there, if you can get in there and erode their margin, frankly go find something else to do. Um, and, and again, you know, you know, the shift we experienced day to day is it's not just our kids are online in school and, uh, our work is online, but all the groceries we order, um, uh, you know, this Thanksgiving and holiday season, uh, a lot more online shopping is going to take place. So, you know, everything's gone digital. And so the question is, you know, how, how do we up our game there so that we can go about our business, uh, effectively and make it very expensive for the adversary to operate, uh, and take care of their business? Cause it's nasty stuff. >>I want to ask you about automation generally, and then specifically how it applies to security. So we, I mean, we certainly saw the ascendancy of the hyperscalers and of course they really attacked the it labor problem. We learned a lot from that and an it organizations have applied much of that thinking. And the it's critical at scale. I mean, you just can't scale humans at the pace, the technology scales today, how does that apply to security and specifically, how is automation affecting security? >>Yeah, it's, it's, it's the topic these days. Um, you know, businesses, I think, realize that they can't continue to grow at human scale. And so the reason why automation and things like AI and machine learning have a lot of value is because everyone's trying to expand, uh, and operate at machine scale. Now, I mean that for, for businesses, I mean that for education and everything else now, so are the adversaries, right? So it's expensive for them to operate at Cuban scale and they are going to machine scale, going to machine scale, uh, a necessity is that you're going to have to harness some level of automation, have the machines, uh, work on your behalf, have the machines carry your intent. Um, and when you do that, um, you can do it safely or you could do it dangerously. And that that's really kind of your choice. Um, you know, just because you can automate something doesn't mean you should, um, you, you wanna make sure that frankly, the adversary can't get in there and use that automation on their behalf. So it's, it's a tricky thing because, you know, if when you take the phrase, you know, how do we, how do we automate security? Well, you actually have, uh, take care of, of securing the automation first. >>Yeah. We talked about this in Barcelona, where you were explaining that, you know, the bad guys, the adversaries are essentially, you know, weaponizing using your own tooling, which makes them appear safe because it's, they're hiding in plain sight. Right? >>Well, there's, they're clever, uh, give them that, um, you know, there's this phrase that they, they always talk about called living off the land. Um, there's no sense in them coming into your network and bringing their tools and, uh, and being detective, you know, if they can use the tools that's already there, then, uh, they have a higher degree of, of evading, uh, your protection. If they can pose as Alice or Bob, who's already been credentialed and move around your network, then they're moving around the network as Alice or Bob. They're not marked as the adversary. So again, you know, having the detection methods available to find their behavior anomalies and things like that become a paramount, but also, you know, having the automation to contain them, to eradicate them, to, you know, minimize their effectiveness, um, without it, I mean, ideally without human interaction, cause you, you just, can you move faster, you move quicker. Um, and I see that with an asterisk because, um, if done wrong, frankly, um, you're just making their job more effective. >>I wonder if we could talk about the market a little bit, uh, it's I'm in the security space, cybersecurity 80 plus billion, which by the way, is just a little infant testable component of our GDP. So we're not spending nearly enough to protect that, that massive, uh, GDP, but guys, I wonder if you could bring up the chart because when you talk to CSOs and you ask them, what's your, what's your biggest challenge? They'll say lack of talent. And, and so what this chart shows is from ETR, our, or our survey partner, and on the vertical axis is net score. And that's an indication of spending momentum on the horizontal axis is market share, which is a measure of presence, a pervasiveness, if you will, inside the datasets. And so there's a couple of key points here. I wanted to put forth to our audience and then get your reactions. >>So you can see Cisco, I highlighted in red, Cisco is business and security is very, very strong. We see it every quarter. It's a growth area that Chuck Robbins talks about on the, on the conference call. And so you can see on the horizontal axis, you've got a big presence in the data set. I mean, Microsoft is out there, but they're everywhere, but you're right there, uh, in that, in that dataset. And then you've got for such a large presence, you've got a lot of momentum in the marketplace, so that's very impressive. But the other point here is you've got this huge buffet of options. There's just a zillion vendors here. And that just adds to the complexity. This is of course only a subset of what's in the security space. You know, the people who answered for the survey. So my question is how can Cisco help, you know, simplify this picture? Is it automation? Is it, you know, you guys have done some really interesting tuck in acquisitions and you're bringing that integration together. Can you talk about that a little bit? >>Yeah. I mean, that's an impressive chart. I mean, when you look to the left there it's, um, I had a customer tell me once that, you know, I came to this trade show, looking for transportation and these people are trying to sell me car parts. Um, that's the frustration customers have, you know, and I think what Cisco has done really well is to really focus on outcomes. Um, what is the customer outcome? Cause ultimately that's, that is what the customer wants. You know, there might be a few steps to get to that outcome, but the closest closer you can get to delivering outcomes for the customer, the better you are. And I think, I think security in general has just year over year have been just written with, um, you need to be an expert. Um, you need to buy all these parts and put it together yourself. And, and I think, I think those days are behind us, but particularly as, as security becomes more pervasive and we're, you know, we're selling to the business, we're not selling to the, you know, t-shirt wearing hacker anymore. >>Yeah. So, well, well how does cloud fit in here? Because I think there's a lot of misconceptions about cloud people that God put my data in the cloud I'm safe, but you know, of course we know it's a shared responsibility model. So I'm interested in your, your thoughts on that. Is it really, is it a sense of complacency? A lot of the cloud vendors, by the way, say, Oh, the state of security is great in the cloud. Whereas many of us out there saying, wow, it's, it's not so great. Uh, so what are your thoughts on that, that whole narrative and what Cisco's play in cloud? >>I think cloud, um, when you look at the services that are delivered via the cloud, you see that exact pattern, which is you see customers paying for the outcome or as close to the outcome as possible. Um, you know, no, no data center required, no disk drive required, you just get storage, you know, it's, it's, it's all of those things that are again, closer to the outcome. I think the thing that interests me about cloud two is it's really been, it's really punctuated the way we go about building systems. Um, again at machine scale. So, you know, before, when I write code and I think about, Oh, what computers are gonna run on or, you know, what servers are going to is you're going to run on those. Those thoughts never crossed my mind anymore. You know, I'm modeling the intent of what the service should do and the machines then figure it out. So, you know, for instance, on Tuesday, if the entire internet shows up, uh, the, the system works without fail. And if on Wednesday, if only North America shows up, you know, so, but, but there's no way you could staff that, right. There's just no human scale approach that gets you there. And that's, that's the beauty of all of this cloud stuff is, um, it really is, uh, the next level of how we do computer science. >>So you're talking about infrastructure as code and that applies to security as code. That's what dev net is really all about. I've said many times, I think Cisco of the large established enterprise companies is one of the few, if not the only, that really has figured out, you know, that developer angle, because it's practical. What are you doing? You're not trying to force your way into developers, but, you know, I wonder if you could, you could talk a little bit about that trend and where you see it going. >>Yeah, no, that is, that is truly the trend. Every time I walk into dev net, um, the big halls at Cisco live, it is Cisco as code. Um, everything about Cisco is being presented through an API. It is automation ready. And frankly, that is, um, that is the, the love language of the cloud. Um, it's it's machines is the machines talking to machines in very effective ways. So, you know, it is the, the, uh, I, I think, I think necessary, maybe not sufficient but necessary for, um, you know, doing all the machine scale stuff. What what's also necessary, uh, is to, um, to secure if infrastructure is code therefore, um, what, what secure, uh, what security methodologies do we have today that we use to secure code? While we have automated testing, we have threat modeling, right? Those things actually have to be now applied to infrastructure. So then when I, when I talk about how do you do, uh, automation securely, you do it the same way you secure your code, you test it, you, you threat model, you, you, you say, you know, Ken, my adversary, uh, exhibit something here that drives the automation in a way that I didn't intend it to go. Um, so all of those practices apply. It's just, everything has code these days. >>I've often said that security and privacy are sort of two sides of the same coin. And I want to ask you a question and it's really, you know, to me, it's not necessarily Cisco and company like companies like Cisco's responsibility, but I wonder if there's a way in which you can help. And of course, there's this Netflix documentary circling around the social dilemma. I don't know if you have a chance to see it, but basically dramatizes the way in which companies are appropriating our data to sell us ads and, you know, creating our own little set of facts, et cetera. And that comes down to sort of how we think about privacy and admin. It's good from the standpoint of awareness, you know, you may or may not care if you're a social media user. I love tick-tock, I don't care, but, but, but they, they sort of laid out. This is pretty scary scenario with a lot of the inventors of those technologies. You have any thoughts on that and you'll consist go play a role there in terms of protecting our privacy. I mean, beyond GDPR and California, consumer privacy act, um, what do you think? >>Yeah. Um, uh, I'll give you my, you know, my humble opinion is you, you fix social problems with social tools, you fixed technology problems with technology tools. Um, I think there is a social problem, um, that needs to be rectified the, you know, um, we, we, weren't built as, um, human beings to live and interact with an environment that agrees with us all the time. It's just pretty wrong. So yeah, that, that, that, um, that series that really kind of wake up a lot of people it is, is, you know, it's probably every day I hear somebody asked me if I, I saw, um, but I do think it also, you know, with that level of awareness, I think we, we overcome it or we compensate by what number one, just being aware that it's happening. Um, number two, you know, how you go about solving it, I think maybe come down to an individual or even a communities, um, solution and what might be right for one community might be, you know, not the same for the other. So you have to be respectful in that manner. >>Yeah. So it's, it's, it's almost, I think if I could play back, what I heard is, is yeah. Technology, you know, maybe got us into this problem, but technology alone is not going to get us out of the problem. It's not like some magic AI bot is going to solve this. It's got to be, you know, society has to really, really take this on as your premise. >>That's a good point. When I, when I first started playing online games, I'm going back to the text-based adventure stuff, like muds and moves. I did a talk at, at MIT one time, and I'm this old curmudgeon in the back of the room. Um, we were talking about democracy and we were talking about, you know, the social processes that we had modeled in our game and this and that. And this guy just gave us the SmackDown. He basically walked up to the front of the room and said, you know, all you techies, you judge efficiency by how long it takes. He says, democracy is a completely the opposite, which is you need to sleep on it. In fact, you should be scared if somebody can decide in a minute, what is good for the community? It, two weeks later, they probably have a better idea of what's good for the community. So it almost has the opposite. And that was super interesting to me. >>That's really interesting, you know, you read the, like the, the Lincoln historians and he was criticized in the day for having taken so long, you know, to make certain decisions, but ultimately when he acted acted with, with confidence. Um, so to that point, but, um, so what, what else are you working on these days that, uh, that are, that is interesting that maybe you want to share with our audience? Anything that's really super exciting for you or you, >>Yeah. You know, generally speaking, I'm trying to try and make it a little harder for the bad guys to operate. I guess that's a general theme making it simpler for the common person to use, uh, tools. Um, again, you know, all of these security tools, no matter how fancy it is, it's not that we're losing the complexity, it's that we're moving the complexity away from the user so that they can thrive at human scale. And we can do things at machine scale and kind of working those two together is sort of the, the magic recipe. Um, it's, it's not easy, but, um, but it is, it is fun. So that's, that's what keeps me engaged. >>I'm definitely seeing, I wonder if you see it just sort of a, obviously a heightened organization awareness, but I'm also seeing shifts in the organizational structures. You know, the, you know, it used to be a sec ops team and an Island. Okay, it's your problem? You know, the, the, the CSO cannot report into the, to the CIO because that's like the Fox in the hen house, a lot of those structures are, are, are changing. It seems it'd be becoming this responsibility is coming much more ubiquitous across the organization. What are you seeing there and what are you putting on? >>And it's so familiar to me because, you know, um, I, I started out as a musician. So, you know, bands bands are a great analogy. You know, you play bass, I big guitar. You know, somebody else plays drums, everybody knows their role and you create something that's larger than, you know, the sum of all parts. And so that, that analogy I think, is coming to, you know, we, we saw it sort of with dev ops where, you know, the developer, doesn't just throw their coat over the wall and it's somebody else's problem. They move together as a band. And, and that's what I think, um, organizations are seeing is that, you know, why, why stop there? Why not include marketing? Why not include sales? Why don't we move together as a business? Not just here's the product and here's the rest of the business. That's, that's, that's pretty awesome. Um, I think, uh, we see a lot of those patterns, uh, particularly for the highly high-performance businesses. >>No, in fact, it's interesting you for great analogy, by the way. And you actually see in that within Cisco, you're seeing sort of a, and I know sometimes you guys don't like to talk about the plumbing, but I think it matters. I mean, you got a leadership structure now. I I've talked to many of them. They seem to really be more focused on how they're connect, connecting, you know, across organizations. And it's increasingly critical in this world of, you know, of silo busters, isn't it? Yeah, no, I mean, you almost, as, as you move further and further away, you know, you can see how ridiculous it was before it would be like acquiring the band and say, okay, all you can talk later is go over here. All your bass players go over there. I'm like, what happened to the band? >>That's what I'm talking about is, you know, moving all of those disciplines, moving together and servicing the same backlog and achieving the same successes together is just so awesome. Well, I always, I always feel better after talking to you. You know, I remember I remember art. Coviello used to put out his, his letter every year and I was reading. I'd get depressed. We spend all this money now we're less secure. But when I talked to you TK, I feel like much more optimistic. So I really appreciate the time you spend on the cube. It's awesome to have you as a guest. I love these, I love these sessions. So thanks. Thanks for inviting me. And I miss you. I, you know, hopefully, you know, next year we can get together at some of the Cisco shows or other shows, but be well and stay weird. Like the sign says doing my part to get Kenny, thanks so much for coming to the cube. We, uh, we really appreciate it. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante. We've right back with our next guest. This short break, >>Come back to the cubes coverage, just to keep virtuals coverage of dev net create virtual will not face to face the cubes. Been there with dev net and dev net create. Since the beginning, dev net create was really a part of the dev net community. Looking out at the external market outside of Cisco, which essentially is the cloud native world, which is going mainstream. We've got a great guest here. Who's who's been the company's been on the cube. Many times. We've been talking to them recently acquired by Cisco thousand eyes. We have Joe Vaccaro is BC vice president of product, Joe, welcome to the cube. Thanks for coming on. Great. And thanks for having me. You have the keys to the kingdom, you, the vice president of product, which means you get to look inside and you get to look outside, figure it all out, uh, make everything run on thousand eyes. >>You guys have been finding common language, uh, across multiple layers of network intelligence, external services. This is the heart of what we're seeing in innovation with multicloud microservices, cloud native. This is really a hot area. It's converging multiple theaters in technology. Super important. I want to get into that with you. But first thousand nine was recently acquired by Cisco, um, big acquisition, uh, super important new CEO of Cisco, very clear API, everything we're seeing that come out. That's a big theme at dev net create the ecosystem of Cisco's going outside their own, you know, their, their walls outside of the Cisco network operators, network engineers. We're talking to developers talk programmability. This is the big theme. What's it like at Cisco? Tell us, honestly, the COVID hits. You get acquired by Cisco, tell us what's happening. >>Yeah, surely been an exciting six months, 4,000 eyes on the entire team and our customers, you know, as we all kind of shifted to the new normal of working from home. And I think, you know, that change alone really kind of amplified. Even some of the fundamental beliefs that we have as a company that you know, cloud is becoming the new data center or customers that Indra internet has become the new network and the new enterprise network backbone. And that SAS has really become the new application stack. And as you think about these last six months, those fundamental truths have never been more evident as we rely upon the cloud to be able to, to work as we rely upon our own home networks and the internet in order to be productive. And as we access more sized applications on a daily basis. And as you think about those fundamental truths, what's common across all of them is that you rely upon them now more than ever, not only to run your business, but to any of your employees would be productive, but you don't own them. And if you don't own them, then you lack the ability in a traditional way to be able to understand that digital experience. And I think that's ultimately what, what thousand eyes is trying to solve for. And I think it's really being amplified in really these last six months. >>Talk about the COVID dynamic because I think it highlighted and certainly accelerated digital transformation, but specifically exposes opportunities, challenges, weaknesses, I've talked to many CXOs CSOs. Uh, sec security is huge. Um, home of the conference book talk track, we'll get to in a second, but exposes what's worth doubling down on what to abandon from a project standpoint, as people start to look at their priorities, they're going, Hey, we got to have a connected experience. We got to have security. People are working at home. No one has VPNs at home VPNs or passe, maybe it's way. And maybe it's something else they're on a backbone. They're connecting to the internet, a lot of different diversity in connections. At the same time, you got a ton of modern apps running along for these networks. This is a huge issue. COVID is exposed us at scale. What's your view on this? And what does thousand eyes thinking about this? >>You know, if you think about the kind of legacy application delivery, it went from largely users in an office connected over, say a dedicated corporate network, largely to traditional say internal hosted applications. And that was early simple connectivity bath. And as you mentioned, we've seen amplifications in terms of the diversity from the users. So users are not in the office. Now they're connected in distributed disparate locations that are dynamically changing. When you think that how they're getting to that application, they're going across a really complex service chain of different network services that are working together across as public internet backbone will totally to land them on an application. And then those applications themselves are becoming now, as you mentioned, distributed largely based upon a microservices architecture and increasing their own dependence upon third party sample size applications to fulfill say key functions of that application, those three things together. >>Ultimately you're creating that level of level of complex service chain that really makes it difficult to understand the digital experience. And ultimately the it organization it's really chartered with not just delivering the infrastructure, but delivering the right experience. And you have to then have a way to be able to see, to gain that visibility, that experience, you know, to measure it and understand, and to provide that intelligence and then ultimately to act on it, be able to ensure that your employees, as well as your customers are getting the right overall, um, approach to being able to leverage those assets. >>It's funny, you know, I was getting to some of these high scale environments, a lot of these concepts are converging. You know, we had terms like automation, self healing networks. Um, you mentioned microservices early, you mentioned data out of the clouds, the new data center, uh, or when's the new land. However, we're gonna look at it. It's a whole different architecture. So I want to get your thoughts on, on the automation piece of networking and internet outages, for instance, um, because when you, you know, there's so many outages going up and down, it is like, uh, catching, looking for a needle in a haystack, right. So, um, we've had this conversation with you guys on the cube before, how does automation occur when you guys look at those kinds of things? Uh, what's important to look at, can you comment on and react to, you know, the internet outages and how you find resolve those? >>Yeah. It's um, it was really great. And as you mentioned, automation really in a place that a key, when you think about the, just a broad problem that it is trying to drive and, you know, from our lens, we look at it in really three ways. You're first off is you have to be able to gain the level of visibility from where it matters and be able to, to test and be able to provide that level of active measurements across the, the type of ways you want to be able to inspect the network. But then also from the right vantage points, you want to inspect it. But what we talk about right aside, you know, data alone, doesn't solve that problem. As you mentioned, that needle in the haystack, you know, data just provides the raw metrics that are screaming across the screen, and you have to then enable that data to provide meeting. >>You need to enable that data become intelligent. And that intelligence comes through the automation of being able to process that data very quickly, allow you to be able to see the unseen, allow you to be able to quickly understand the issues that are happening across this digital supply chain to identify issues that are even happening outside of your own control across the public internet. And then the last step of automation really comes in the, of the action, right? How do you enable that intelligence to be put, to use? How do you enable that intelligence to then drive across the rest of your it workflow as well as to be able to be used as a signaling engine, to be able to then make the fundamental changes back at the network fabric, whether that is a dressing or modifying your BGB pairing, that we see happen with our customers using thousand eyes data, to be able to route around major internet outages that we've seen over the past six months, or to be able to then use that data, to be able to optimize the ultimate experience that they're delivering to both our customers, as well as their employees, >>Classic policy based activities. And you take it to a whole nother level. I got to get your thoughts on the employees working at home. Okay. Because, um, you know, most it people like, Oh yeah, we're going to forecast in cases of disruption or a hurricane or a flood or hurricane Sandy, but now with COVID, everyone's working at home. So who would have forecasted a hundred percent, um, you know, work from home, which puts a lot of pressure on him, everything. So I gotta ask you, now that employees are working at home, how do you tie network visibility to the actual user experience? >>Yeah, that's a great question. As you, you know, we saw within our own customer base, you know, when COVID head and we saw this rise of work from home, it teams are really scrambling and said, okay, I have to light up this, say VPN infrastructure, or I need to now be able to support my users in a work from home situation where I don't control the corporate network. In essence, now you have essentially thousands. Every employee is acting across their own corporate network and people were then using thousand eyes in different ways to be able to monitor their safety VPN infrastructure across, uh, back into the corporate network, as well as in using our thousand eyes end point agents that runs on a local, a user's laptop or machine in their home to help you to be able to gain that visibility down to that last mile of connectivity. >>Because when a user calls up support and says, I'm having trouble say accessing my application, whether that's Salesforce or something else, what ultimately might be causing that issue might not necessarily be a Salesforce issue, right? It could be the device and the device performance in terms of CPU, memory utilization. It could be the wifi and the signal quality within your wifi network. It could be your access point. It could be your raw, local home router. It can be your local ISP. It could be the path that you're taking ultimately to your corporate network or that application. There's so many places that could go wrong that are now difficult to be able to see, unless you have the ability to see comprehensively from the user to the application, and to be able to understand that full end to end path, >>You know, it teams have also been disrupted. They've been on offsite prop off property as well, but you got the cloud. How is your technology help the it teams? Can you give some examples there? Um, >>Yeah, great way is, you know, how people use thousand eyes as part of that data sharing ecosystem. Again, that notion of how do you go from visibility to intelligence action and we're in the past, you might be able as an it administrator to walk over to their network team and say, Hey, can you take a look at what I'm seeing now? That's no longer available. So how do you be able to work efficiently as the United organization? You know, we think a thousand eyes in how our customers are using us a thousand times becomes a common operating language that allows them to be able to analyze across from the application down into the underlying infrastructure, through those different layers of the network what's happening. And where do you need to focus your attention? And then furthermore, with 10,000 eyes in terms of a need nibbling, that data sharing ecosystem, leveraging our share link capability really gives them the ability to say, you know, here's what I'm seeing and be able to send that to anybody within the it organization, but it goes even further and many times in recent times, as well as over the course of people using thousand eyes, they take those share links and actually send them to their external providers because they're not just looking to resolve issues within their own it organization. >>They're having to work collaboratively with the different ISP that they're appearing with with their cloud providers that they're appearing, uh, they're leveraging, or the SAS applications that are part of that core dependency of how they deliver their experience. >>I asked you the question when you think about levels of visibility and making the lives easier for it, teams, um, and see a lot of benefits with thousand eyes. You pointed out a few of them. It's got to ask you the question. So if I'm an it person I'm in the trenches, are you guys have, uh, an aspirin or a vitamin or both? Can you give an example because there's a lot of pain point out there. So yeah. Give me a cup, a couple Advils and aspirins, but also you're an enabler to the new things are evolving. You pointed out some use case. You talked about the difference between where you're helping people pain points and also enabling them be successful for it teams. >>Yeah, that's a great analogy. You're thinking it, like you said, it definitely sits on both sides of that spectrum, you know, thousand eyes is the trusted tool, the source of truth for it. Organizations when issues are happening as their alarm bells are ringing, as they are generating the, um, the different, uh, on call, uh, to be able to jump into a worm situation thousand eyes is that trusted source of truth. Allow them to focus, to be able to resolve the issue in the heat of the moment. But that was a nice also when we think about baselining, your experience, what's important is not understanding that experience at that moment in time, but also how that's deviated over time. And so by leveraging thousand eyes on a continuous basis, it gives you the ability to see the history of that experience, to understand how your network is changing is as you mentioned, networks are constantly evolving, right? >>The internet itself is constantly changing. It's an organic system, and you need to be able to understand not only what are the metrics that are moving out of your balance, but then what is potentially the cause of that as a network has evolved. And then furthermore, you can be begin to use that as you mentioned, in terms of your vitamin type of an analogy, to be able to understand the health of your system over time on a baseline basis so that you can begin to be able to ensure its success in a great way to really kind of bring that to light. As people using say, thousand eyes as part of the same SC land-based rollout, where you're looking to seek benchmark and confidence as you look to scale out in either, you know, benchmarking different ISP within that, I feel like connectivity for as you look to ensure a level of success with a single branch to give you that competence, to then scale out to the rest of your organization. >>That's great insights, the classic financial model ROI, you get baseline and upside, right? You got handle the baseline as you pointed out, and the upside music experience connectivity, you know, application performance, which drives revenue, et cetera. So great point. Great insight, Joe. Thank you so much for that insight. It's got a final question for you. I want to just riff a little bit with you on the industry. A lot of us have been having debates about automation. I mean, who doesn't, who doesn't love automation. Automation is awesome, right? Automate things. But as the trend starts going on, as everything is a service or X, a S as it's called, certainly Cisco's going down that road. Talk about your view about the difference between automation and everything is a service because at the end of the day, everything will be a service, but without automation, you really can't have services, right? So, you know, automation, automation, automation, great, great drum to bang all day long, but then also you got the same business side saying as a service, as a service, pushing that into the products means not trivial. Talk about, talk about how you'd look at automation and everything as a service and the relationship and interplay between those two concepts. >>Yeah. Ultimately I think about in terms of what is the problem that the business is trying to solve in ultimately, what is the value that they're trying to face? And in many ways, right, they're being exploded with increase of data that needs, they need to be able to not only processing gather, but then be able to then make use of, and then from that, as we mentioned, once you've processed that data and you'd say, gather the insights from it. You need to be able to then act on that data. And automation plays a key role of allowing you to be able to then put that through your workflow. Because again, as that, it experience becomes even more complex as more and more services get put into that digital supply chain. As you adopt say increased complexity within your infrastructure, by moving to a multicloud architecture where you look to increase the number of say, network services that you're leveraging across that digital experience. >>Ultimately you need the level of automation. You'd be able to see outside of your own vantage point. You need to be able to look at the problem from as broad of a, a broad of a way as possible. And you know, data and automation allows you to be able to do what is fundamentally to do from a very narrow point of view, in terms of the visibility you gather intelligence you generate, and then ultimately, how do you act on that data as quick as possible to be able to provide the value of what you're looking to solve. >>It's like a feature it's under the hood. The feature of everything comes to the surface is automation, data, machine learning, all the goodness in the software. I mean, that's really kind of what we're talking about here. Isn't it a final question for you as we wrap up, uh, dev net create really, again, is going beyond Cisco's dev net community going into the industry ecosystem where developers are there. Um, these are folks that want infrastructure as code. They want network as code. So network programmability, huge topic. We've been having that conversation, uh, with Cisco and others throughout the industry for the past three years. What's your message to developers out there that are watching this who say, Hey, I just want to develop code. Like I want, you know, you guys got that. That was nice. Thanks so much. You know, you take care of that. I just want to write code. What's your message to those folks out there who want to tap some of these new services, these new automation, these new capabilities, what's your message. >>You know, ultimately I think, you know, when you look at thousand eyes, um, you know, from a product perspective, you know, we try to build our product in an API first model to allow you to be able to then shift left of how you think about that overall experience. And from a developer standpoint, you know, what I'd say is, is that while you're developing in your silo, you're going to be part of a larger ultimate system. In your experience you deliver within your application is now going to be dependent upon not only the infrastructure it's running upon, but the network gets connected to, and then ultimately the user and the stance of that user, if I leveraging a thousand eyes and being able to then integrate that into how you think closely on that experience, that's going to help ensure that ultimately the application experience that the is looking to deliver meets that objective. And I think what I would say is, you know, while you need to focus on your, uh, your role as a developer, having the understanding of how you fit into the larger ecosystem and what the reality of the, of how your users will access that application is critical. >>Awesome, Joe, thank you so much. Again, trust is everything letting people understand that what's going on underneath is going to be, you know, viable and capable. You guys got a great product and congratulations on the acquisition that Cisco made of your company. And we've been following you guys for a long time and a great technology chops, great market traction, congratulations to everyone, 1,009. Thanks for coming on today. >>I appreciate it. Thanks for having me >>Vice president of product here with thousand eyes. Now, part of Cisco, John, for your host of the cube cube virtual for dev net, create virtual. Thanks for watching. >>Even prior to the pandemic, there was a mandate to automate the hyperscale cloud companies. They've shown us that to scale. >>You really have to automate your human labor. It just can't keep up with the pace of technology. Now, post COVID that automation mandate is even more pressing. Now what about the marketplace? What are S E seeing on the horizon? The cubes Jeff Frick speaks with Cisco engineers to gather their insights and explore the definite specialized partner program. We've got >>Coon Jacobs. He's the director of systems engineering for Cisco. Good to see Kuhn, >>Thank you for having me >>And joining him as Eric nappy is the VP of system systems engineering for Cisco. Good to see Eric. Good to be here. Thank you. Pleasure. So before we jump into kind of what's going on now in this new great world of programmability and, and control, I want to kind of go back to the future for a minute, because when I was doing some research for this interview, it was Coon. I saw an old presentation that you were giving from 2006 about the changing evolution of the, uh, the changing evolution of networking and moving from. I think the theme was a human centered human centered network. And you were just starting to touch a little bit on video and online video. Oh my goodness, how far we have come, but, but I would love to get kind of a historical perspective because we've been talking a lot and I know Eric son plays football about the football analogy of the network is kind of like an offensive lineman where if they're doing a good job, you don't hear much about them, but they're really important to everything. >>And the only time you hear about them is when a flag gets thrown. So if you look back with the historical perspective, the load and the numbers and the evolution of the network, as we've moved to this modern time, and, you know, thank goodness cause of COVID hit five years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, you know, all of us in the information space would not have been able to make this transition. So I just, I just love to get some historical perspective cause you've been kind of charting this and mapping this for a very long time. >>Yeah, we absolutely have. I think, you know, what you're referring to was back in the day, the human network campaign, and to your point, the load, the number of hosts that traffic, the just overall the intelligence of the network has just evolved tremendously over these last decade and a half, uh, 15 years or so. And you look at where we are now in terms of the programmable nature of the network and what that enables in terms of new degrees of relevance that we can create for the customers. Um, and how, you know, the role of it has changed entirely again, especially during this pandemic, you know, the fact that it's now as a service and elastic, uh, is, is absolutely fundamental to being able to ensure, uh, on an ongoing basis, a great customer experience. And so, uh, it's been, it's been, uh, a very interesting ride. >>Yeah. And then, and then just to close the loop, the, one of your more later interviews talking to Sylvia, your question is, are you a developer or an engineer? So it was, and, and your whole advice to all these network engineers is just, just don't jump in and start doing some coding and learning. So, you know, the focus and really the emphasis and where the opportunity to differentiate as a company is completely shifting gears over to the S you know, really software defined side. >>Oh, absolutely. So, I mean, you look at how the software world and the network has come together and how we're applying now, you know, basically the same construct of CICB pipeline to network, uh, infrastructure, look at network really as code and get all of the benefits from that. And the familiarity of it, the way that our engineers have had to evolve. And that is just, you know, quite, quite significant in, in, in like the skill set. And the best thing is jump in, right. Um, you know, dip your toe in the water, but continue to evolve that skill set. And, uh, you know, don't, don't be shy. It's, it's a leap of faith for some of us who've been in the industry a bit longer. Uh, you know, we like to look at ourselves as the craftsman of the network, but now it's definitely a software centricity and programmability, right? >>So Eric, you've got some digital exhaust out there too, that I was able to dig up going back to 2002 752 page book, and the very back corner of a dark dirty dusty Amazon warehouse is managing Cisco network security, 752 pages. Wow. How has security changed from a time where before I could just read a book, a big book and, you know, throw some protocols in and probably block a bunch of ports to the world that we live in today, where everything is connected. Everything is API driven, everything is software defined. You've got pieces of workloads spread out all over the place and Oh, by the way, you need to bake security in at every single level of the application stack. >>Yeah, no I'm so, wow. Cocoon is that you, you found that book on the I'm really impressed. There was a thank you a little street, correct. So, uh, I want to hit on something that you, you talked about. Cause I think it's very important to, to this overall conversation. If we think about the scale of the network and Coon hit on it briefly, you talked about it as well. We're seeing a massive explosion of devices by the I, you know, it's estimated by the end of this year, there's going to be about 27 billion devices on the global internet. That's about 3.7 devices for every man, woman and child life. And if we extrapolate that out over the course of the next decade on the growth trajectory we're on. And if you look at some of the published research on this, it's estimated there could be upwards of 500 billion devices accessing the global internet on a, on a daily basis. >>And primarily that, that, that is a IOT devices. That's digitally connected devices. Anything that can be connected will be connected, but then introduces a really interesting security challenge because every one of those devices that is accessing the global internet is within a company's infrastructure or accessing pieces of corporate data is a potential attack factor. So we really need to, and I think the right for this is we need to reimagine security because security is, as you said, not about perimeters. You know, I wrote that book back in 2002, I was talking about firewalls and a cutting edge technology was intrusion prevention and intrusion detection. Now we need to look at security really in the, in the guise of, or under the, under the, under the realm of really two aspects, the identity who is accessing the data in the context, what data is being accessed. >>And that is going to require a level of intelligence, a level of automation and the technologies like machine learning and automated intelligence are going to be our artificial intelligence rather are going to be table stakes because the sheer scale of what we're trying to secure is going to be untenable, undercurrent, you know, just current security practices. I mean, the network is going to have to be incredibly intelligent and leverage again, a lot of that, uh, that AI type of data to match patterns of potential attacks and ideally shut them down before they ever cause any type of damage. >>Really interesting. I mean, one thing that COVID has done a bunk many things is kind of retaught us all about the power of exponential curves and how extremely large those things are and how fast they grow. We had Dave runs and on a Google cloud a couple of years ago. And I remember him talking about early days of Google when they were starting to map out kind of, as you described kind of map out their growth curves, and they just figured out they could not hire if they hired everybody, they couldn't hire enough people to deal with it. Right. So really kind of rethinking automation and rethinking about the way that you manage these things and the level, right. The old, is it a pet or is it, or is it, um, uh, part of a herd? And I think it's interesting what you talked about, uh, can really the human powered internet and being driven by a lot of this video, but to what you just said, Eric, the next big wave, right. >>Is IOT and five G. And I think, you know, you talk about 3.7 million devices per person. That's nothing compared to right. All these sensors and all these devices and all these factories, cause five G is really targeted to machine the machines, which there's a lot of them and they trade a lot of information really, really quickly. So, you know, I want to go back to you Coon thinking about this next great wave in a five G IOT kind of driven world where it's kind of like when voice kind of fell off compared to IP traffic on the network. I think you're going to see the same thing, kind of human generated data relative to machine generated data is also going to fall off dramatically as a machine generated data, just skyrocket through the roof. >>Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think too, also what Eric touched on the visibility on that, and they'd be able to process that data at the edge. That's going to catalyze cloud adoption even further, and it's going to know, make the role of the network, the connectivity of it all and the security within that crucially important. And then you look at the role of programmability within that. We're seeing the evolution going so fast. You look at the element of the software defined network in an IOT speed space. We see that we have hosts there that are not necessarily, um, you know, behaving like other hosts would, uh, on a network, for example, manufacturing floor, uh, production robot, or a security camera. And what we're seeing is we're seeing partners and customers employing program ability to make sure that we overcome some of the shortcomings, uh, in terms of where the network is at, but then how do you customize it in terms of the relevance that it can provide, uh, bringing on board, uh, those, uh, those hosts in a very transparent way, and then, you know, keep, keep the agility of it and keep the speed of innovation going. >>Right. >>Right. So Eric, I want to come back to you and shift gears kind of back to the people will leave the IOT and the machines along, along for a minute, but I'm curious about what does beat the boss. I mean, I go to your LinkedIn profile and it's just filled with congratulatory statements, but everyone's talking about beating the boss. You know, it's, it's a really, you know, kind of interesting and different way to, to motivate people, to build this new skillset in terms of getting software certifications, uh, within the Cisco world. And I just thought it was really cute the way that you clearly got people motivated, cause there's posts all over the place and they've all got their, their nice big badge or their certification, but, you know, at a higher level, it is a different motivation to be a developer versus an engineer and a technician. And it's kind of a different point of view. And I just wonder if you could share, you know, some of the ways that you're, you're kind of encouraging, you know, kind of this transformation within your own workforce, as well as the partners, et cetera, and really adopting kind of almost a software first and this program kind of point of view versus, you know, I'm just wiring stuff up. >>Apparently a lot of people like to beat me. So of itself was a, was a, it was a great success, but you know, if we think we take a step back, you know, what is Cisco about as an organization? Um, I mean obviously if you look back to the very early days of our vision, right, it was, it was to change the way the world worked, played, live and learn. And that you think about, and you hit on this when we were, you know, you were discussion with co with Kuhn in the early days of COVID. We really saw that play out as so much shifted from, you know, in-person type of interactions to virtual interactions in the network that, uh, that our, our customers, our partners, our employees built over the course of the last several, the last three decades really helped the world continue to, um, to, to do business for students to continue to go to school or clinicians, to connect with patients. >>If I think about that mission to meet programmability is just the next iteration of that mission, continuing to enable the world to communicate, continuing, to enable customers, employees, uh, partners, uh, to essentially leverage the network for more than just connectivity now to leverage it for critical insight. Again, if we look at some of the, uh, some of the use cases that we're seeing for social distancing and contact tracing and network has a really important place to play there because we can pull insight from it, but it isn't necessarily an out of the box type of integration. So I look at programmability and in what we're doing with, with dev net to give relevance to the network for those types of really critical conversations that every organization is having right now, it's a way to extrapolate. It's a way to pull critical data so that I can make a decision. >>And if that decision is automated, or if that decision requires some type of a manual intervention, regardless, we're still about connecting. And in this case, we're connecting insight with the people who need it most, right. The debit challenge we ran is really in respect for how critical this new skill set is going to be. It's not enough. Like I said, just to connect the world anymore. We need to leverage that network, the network for that critical insight. And when we drove, we were, we created the beat, the boss challenge. It was really simple. Hey guys, I think this is important and I am going to go out and I'm going to achieve the certification myself, because I want to continue to be very relevant. I want to continue to be able to provide that insight for my customers and partners. So therefore I'm going for it. Anybody that can get there before me, maybe there's a little incentive tied to the incentive. Although it's funny, we interviewed a lot of, a lot of our team who, uh, who achieved it when incentive was secondary. They just wanted to have the bragging rights, like, yeah, I beat Eric, right. >>You know, putting your money where your mouth is, right. If it's important, then why, you know, you should do it too. And, and you know, the whole, you're not asking people to do what you wouldn't do yourself. So I think there's a lot of good leadership, uh, leadership lessons there as well. But I want to extend kind of the conversation on the covert impact, right? Cause I'm sure you've seen all the social media meme, you know, who's driving your digital transformation, the CEO, the CMO or COVID. And we all know the answer to the question, but you know, you guys have already been dealing with kind of an increased complexity around enterprise infrastructure world in terms of cloud and public cloud and hybrid cloud and multi cloud. And people are trying to move stuff all, all the way around now suddenly had this COVID moment right in, in March, which is really a light switch moment. >>People didn't have time to plan or prepare for suddenly everybody working from home. And it's not only you, but your spouse and your kids and everybody else. So, but now we're six months plus into this thing. And I would just love to get your perspective and kind of the change from, Oh my goodness, we have to react to the light switch moment. What do we do to make sure people can, can get, get what they need when they need it from where they are. Uh, but, but then really moving from this is a, an emergency situation, a stop gap situation to, Hmm, this is going to extend for some period of time. And even when it's the acute crisis is over, you know, this is going to drive a real change in the way that people communicate in the way that people, where they sit and their jobs and, and kind of how customers are responding accordingly as the, you know, kind of the narrative has changed from an emergency stop gap to this is the new normal that we really need to plan for. >>So, uh, I think, I think you said it very well. I think anything that could be digitized, any, any interaction that could be driven virtually was, and what's interesting is we, as you said, we went from that light switch moment where I believe the stat is this, and I'll probably get the number wrong, but like in the United States here at the beginning, at the end of February, about 2% of the knowledge worker population was virtual, you know, working from home or in a remote work environment. And over the course of about 11 days, that number went from 2% to 70%. Wow. Interesting that it worked, you know, there was a lot of hiccups along the way, and there was a lot of organizations making really quick decisions on how do I enable VPN scale of mass? How do I, you know, leverage, uh, you know, things like WebEx for virtual meetings and virtual connectivity, uh, much faster now that as you said, that we kinda gotten out of the fog of war or frog fog of battle organizations are looking at what they accomplished. >>And it was nothing short of Herculean and looking at this now from a transition to, Oh my gosh, we need to change too. We have an opportunity to change. And we're looking, we see a lot of organizations specifically around, uh, financial services, healthcare, uh, the, uh, the K through 20, uh, educational environment, all looking at how can they do more virtually for a couple of reasons. Obviously there is a significant safety factor. And again, we're still in that we're still on the height of this pandemic. They want to make sure their employees, their customers, students, patients remain safe. But second, um, we've found in, in discussions with a lot of senior it executives that are customers that people are happier working from home. People are more productive working from home. And that, again, the network that's been built over the course of the last few decades has been resilient enough to allow that to happen. >>And then third, there is a potential cost savings here outside of people. The next most expensive resource that organizations are paying for is real estate. If they can shrink that real estate footprint while providing a better user experience at the locations that they're maintaining, again, leveraging things like location services, leveraging things like a unified collaboration. That's very personalized to the end user's experience. They're going to do that. And again, they're going to save money. They're going to have happier employees and ultimately they're going to make their, uh, their employees and their customers a lot safer. So we see, we believe that there is in some parts of the economy, a shift that is going to be more permanent in some estimates, put it as high as 15% of the current workforce is going to >>Stay in a virtual or a semi virtual working environment for the foreseeable future. >>Interesting. And I, and I, and I would say, I'd say 15% is low, especially if you, if you qualify it with, you know, part-time right. I, there was a great interview we were doing and talking about working from home, we used to work from home as the exception, right? Cause the cable person was coming, are you getting a new washing machine or something where now that's probably getting, you know, in many cases we'll shift to the other where I'm generally going to work from home, unless, you know, somebody is in town or having an important meeting or there's some special collaboration, uh, that drives me to be in. But you know, I want to go back to you Kuhn and, and really doubled down on, you know, I think most people spent too much time focusing, especially, we'll just say within the virtual events space where we play on the things you can't do virtually, we can't meet in the hall. >>We can't grab a quick coffee and a drink instead of focusing on the positive things like we're accomplishing right here, you're in Belgium, right. Eric is in Ohio, we're in California. Um, and you know, we didn't take three days to travel and, and check into a hotel and, and all that stuff to get together, uh, for this period of time. So there's a lot of stuff that digital enables. And I think, you know, people need to focus more on that versus continuing to focus on the two or three things that, that it doesn't replace and it doesn't replace those. So let's just get that off the table and move on with our lives. Cause those aren't coming back anytime soon. >>No, totally. I think it's the balance of those things. It's guarding the fact that you're not necessarily working for home. I think the trick there is you could be sleeping at the office, but I think the positives are way, way more outspoken. Um, I, you know, I look at myself, I got much more exercise time in these last couple of months than I usually do because you don't travel. You don't have the jet lag and the connection. And then you talked about those face to face moments. I think a lot of people are in a way, um, wanting to go back to the office part-time as, as Eric also explain, but a lot of it you can do virtually we have virtual coffees with team, or, you know, even here in Belgium, our local general manager has a virtual effort, TIF every Friday, obviously skip the one this week. But, uh, you know, there's, there's ways to be very creative with the technology and the quality of the technology that enables, um, you know, to, to get the best of both worlds. Right? >>So I just, we're going to wrap the segment. I want to give you guys both the last word you both been at Cisco for a while and, you know, Susie, we, and the team on dev net has really grown this thing. I think we were there at the very beginning couple of four or five, six years ago. I can't keep track of time anymore, but it has really, really grown. And, you know, the timing is terrific to get into this more software defined world, which is where we are. I wonder if you could just, you know, kind of share a couple of thoughts as you know, with a little bit of perspective and you know, what you're excited about today and kind of what you see coming down the road since you guys have been there for a while you've been in this space, uh, let's start with Yukon. >>I think the possibility it creates, I think really programmability software defined is really >>About the art of the possible it's what you can dream up and then go code. Um, Eric talked about the relevance of it and how it maximizes the relevance on a customer basis. Um, you know, and then it is the evolution of the teams in terms of the creativity that they can bring to us. We've seen really people dive into that and customers co-creating with us. And I think that's where we're going in terms of the evolution of the value proposition there in terms of what technology can provide, but also how it impacts people as we discussed and redefines process >>That the art of the possible, which is a lot harder to execute in a, in hardware than software certainly takes a lot longer. I'd love to get your, uh, your thoughts. >>Absolutely. So I started my career at Cisco, uh, turning, uh, putting IP phones onto the network. And back then, you know, it was, you know, 2001, 2002, when, uh, the idea of putting telephones onto the network was such a, um, just such an objectionable idea. And so many purists were telling us all the reasons it wouldn't work. Now, if we go forward again, 19 years, the idea of not having them plugging into the network is a ridiculous idea. So we have a, we're looking at an inflection point in this industry and it's really, it's not about programming. It's not necessarily about programming. It's about doing it smarter. It's about being more efficient. It's about driving automation, but again, it's, it's about unlocking the value of what the network is. We've moved so far past. What can, you know, just connectivity, the network touches everything and there's more workload moves to the cloud is more workload moves to things like containers. >>Um, the network is the really, the only common element that ties all of these things together. The network needs to take its rightful place in the end, the it lexicon as being that critical or that critical insight provider, um, for, for how users are interacting with the network, how users are interacting with applications, how applications are interacting with one, another program ability is a way to do that more efficiently, uh, with greater a greater degree of certainty with much greater relevance into the overall delivery of it services and digitization. So to me, I think we're going to look back 20 years from now, probably even 10 and say, man, we used to configure things manually. What was that like? I think, I think really this is, this is the future. And I think we want to be aligned with where we're going versus where we've been. Right. >>Well, Coon, Eric, thank you for sharing your perspective. You know, it's, it's really nice to have, you know, some historical reference, uh, and it's also nice to be living in a new age where you can, you can, you know, stay at the same company and still refresh, you know, new challenges, new opportunities and grow this thing. Cause as you said, I remember those IP first IP phone days and I thought, well, my bell must be happy because the old mother's problem is finally solved. And when we don't have to have a dedicated connection between every mother and every child in the middle of may. So good news. So thank you very much for sharing your, uh, your insights and really, uh, really enjoyed the conversation. >>Thank you. >>We've been covering dev net create for a number of years. I think since the very first show and Susie, we and the team really built, uh, a practice built a company, built a lot of momentum around software in the Cisco ecosystem and in getting devs really to start to build applications and drive kind of the whole software defined networking thing forward. And a big part of that is partners and working with partners and, and developing solutions and, you know, using brain power. That's outside of the four walls of Cisco. So we're excited to have, uh, our next guest, uh, partner for someone is Brad Hoss. He is the engineering director for dev ops at Presidio, Brad. Great to see you. >>Hey Jeff, great to be here. >>And joining him is Chuck Stickney. Chuck is the business development architect for Cisco DevNet partners and he has been driving a whole lot of partner activity for a very long period of time. Chuck, great to see you. >>Thanks Jeff. Great to be here and looking forward to this conversation. >>So let's, let's start with you Chuck, because I think, um, you know, you're leading this kind of partner effort and, and you know, software defined, networking has been talked about for a long time and you know, it's really seems to be maturing and, and software defined everything right. Has been taking over, especially with, with virtualization and moving the flexibility and the customer program ability customability in software and Mo and taking some of that off the hardware. Talk about, you know, the programs that you guys are putting together and how important it is to have partners to kind of move this whole thing forward, versus just worrying about people that have Cisco badges. >>Yeah, Jeff, absolutely. So along this whole journey of dev net where we're, we're trying to leverage that customization and innovation built on top of our Cisco platforms, most of Cisco's business is transacted through partners. And what we hear from our customers and our partners is they want to, our customers want a way to be able to identify, does this partner have the capabilities and the skills necessary to help me go down this automation journey I'm trying to do, do a new implementation. I want to automate that. How can I find a partner to, to get there? And then we have some of our partners that have been building these practices going along this step, in that journey with us for the last six years, they really want to say, Hey, how can I differentiate myself against my competitors and give an edge to my customers to show them that, yes, I have these capabilities. I've built a business practice. I have technology, I have technologists that really understand this capability and they have the dub net certifications to prove it helped me be able to differentiate myself throughout our ecosystem. So that's really what our Danette partner specialization is all about. Right. >>That's great. And Brad, you're certainly one of those partners and I want to get your perspective because partners are oftentimes a little bit closer to the customer cause you've got your kind of own set of customers that you're building solutions and just reflect on, we know what happened, uh, back in March 15th, when basically everybody was told to go home and you can't go to work. So, you know, there's all the memes and social media about who, you know, who pushed forward your digital transformation, the CEO, the CMO, or COVID. And we all know what the answer is, whatever you can share some information as to what happened then, and really for your business and your customers, and then reflect now we're six months into it, six months plus, and, and you know, this new normal is going to continue for a while. How's the customer attitudes kind of changed now that they're kind of buckled down past the light switch moment and really we need to put in place some foundation to carry forward for a very long time potentially. >>Yeah, it's really quite interesting actually, you know, when code first hit, we got a lot of requests to help with automation of provisioning our customers and in the whole, you know, digital transformation got really put on hold for a little bit there and I'd say it became more of, of the workplace transformation. So we were quickly, uh, you know, migrating customers to, you know, new typologies where instead of the, the, you know, users sitting in those offices, they were sitting at home and we had to get them connected rapidly in a, we, we didn't have a lot of success there in those beginning months with, you know, using automation and programmability, um, building, you know, provisioning portals for our customers to get up and running really fast. Um, and that, that, that was what it looked like in those early days. And then over time, I'd say that the asks from our customers has started to transition a little bit. >>You know, now they're asking, you know, how can I take advantage of the technology to, you know, look at my offices in a different way, you know, for example, you know, how many people are coming in and out of those locations, you know, what's the usage of my conference rooms. Um, are there, uh, are there, um, situations where I can use that information? Like how many people are in the building and at a certain point in time and make real estate decisions on that, you know, like, do I even need this office anymore? So, so the conversations have really changed in, in ways that you couldn't have imagined before March. >>Right. And I wonder with, with you Chuck, in terms of the Cisco point of view, I mean, the network is amazing. It had had, COVID struck five years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, you know, clearly there's a lot of industries that are suffering badly entertainment, um, restaurant, business, transportation, they, you know, hospitality, but for those of us in kind of the information industry, the switch was pretty easy. Um, you know, and, and the network enables the whole thing. And so I wonder if, you know, kind of from your perspective as, as suddenly, you know, the importance of the network, the importance of security and the ability now to move to this new normal very quickly from a networking perspective. And then on top of that, having, you know, dev net with, with the software defined on top, you guys were pretty much in a good space as good as space as you could be given this new challenge thrown at you. >>Yeah, Jeff, we completely agree with that. Uh, Cisco has always pushed the idea that the network is transformational. The network is the foundation, and as our customers have really adopted that message, it is enabled that idea for the knowledge workers to be able to continue on. So for myself, I've, I've worked for home the entire time I've been at Cisco. So the last 13 years, this is, you know, the, the change to the normalcy is I never get on a plane anymore, but my day to day functions are still the same. And it's built because of the capabilities we have with the network. I think the transition that we've seen in the industry, as far as kind of moving to that application type of economy, as we go to microservices, as we go to a higher dependency upon cloud, those things have really enabled the world really to be able to better respond to this, to this COVID situation. And I think it's helped to, to justify the investments that's that our customers have made as well as what our partners have been, being able to do to deliver on that multicloud capability, to take those applications, get them closer to the end user instead of sitting in a common data center and then making it more applicable to, to users wherever they may be, not just inside of that traditional four walls. >>Right, right. That's interesting. And Brad, you, you made a comment on another interview. I was watching getting ready for this one in terms of, uh, applications now being first class citizens was, was what you said. And it's kind of interesting coming from an infrastructure point of view, where before it was, you know, what do I have and what can I build on it now, I really it's the infrastructure that responds back to the application. And even though you guys are both in the business of, of networking and infrastructure, it's still this recognition that apps first is the way to go, because that gives people the competitive advantage that it gives them the ability to react in the marketplace and to innovate and move faster. So, you know, it's, it's a really interesting twist to be able to support an application first, by having a software defined in a more programmable infrastructure stack. >>Yeah, no doubt. And, you know, I think that the whole push to cloud was really interesting in the early days, it was like, Hey, we're going to change our applications to be cloud first. You know? And then I think the terminology changed over time, um, to more cloud native. So when we, when we look at what cloud has done over the past five years with customers moving, you know, their, their assets into the cloud in the early days that we were all looking at it just >>Like another data center, but what it's really become is a place to host your applications. So when we talk about cloud migrations with our customers now, we're, we're no longer talking about, you know, the assets per se, we're talking about the applications and what, what did those applications look like? And even what defines an application right now, especially with the whole move to cloud native and microservices in the automation that helps make that all happen with infrastructure as code. You're now able to bundle the infrastructure with those applications together as a single unit. So when you define that application, as infrastructure, as code the application in the definition of what those software assets for the infrastructure are, all are wrapped together and you've got change control, version control, um, and it's all automated, you know, it's, it's a beautiful thing. And I think it's something that we've all kind of hoped would happen. >>You know, when I look back at the early definitions of software defined networking, I think everybody was trying to figure it out and they didn't really fully understand what that meant now that we can actually define what that network infrastructure could look like as it's, as it's wrapped around that application in a code template, maybe that's Terraform or Ansible, whatever that might be, whatever method or tool that you're using to, to bring it all together. It's, it's, you know, it's really interesting now, I think, I think we've gotten to the point where it's starting to make a lot more sense than, you know, those early days of SDN, uh we're out, you know, it was a, was it a controller or is it a new version of SNMP? You know, now it makes sense. It's actually something tangible. Right, >>Right. But still check, as you said, right. There's still a lot of API APIs and there's still a lot of component pieces to these applications that are all run off the network that all have to fit, uh, that had to fit together. You know, we cover PagerDuty summit and you know, their whole thing is trying to find out where the, where the problems are within the very few microseconds that you have before the customer abandons their shopping cart or whatever the particular application. So again, the network infrastructure and the program ability super important. But I wonder if you could speak to the automation because there's just too much stuff going on for individual people to keep track of, and they shouldn't be keeping track of it because they need to be focusing on the important stuff, not this increasing amount of bandwidth and traffic going through the network. >>Yeah, absolutely. Jeff said the bandwidth that's necessary in order to support everybody working from home to support this video conference. I mean, we, we used to do this sitting face to face. Now we're doing this over the internet. The amount of people necessary to, to be able to facilitate that type of traffic. If we're doing it the way we did 10 years ago, we would not >>Scale it's automation. That makes that possible. That allows us to look higher up the ability to do that automatic provisional provisioning. Now that we're in microservices now that everything is cloud native, we have the ability to, to better, to better adjust to and adapt to changes that happen with the infrastructure below hand. So if something goes wrong, we can very quickly spend something up to take that load off where traditionally it was open up a ticket. Let me get someone in there, let me fix it. Now it's instantaneously identify the solution, go to my playbook, figure out exactly what solution I need to deploy and put that out there. And the network engineering team, the infrastructure engineering team, they just simply need to get notified that this happened. And as long as there's traceability and a point that Brad made, as far as you being able to go through here doing the automation of the documentation side of it. >>I know when I was a network engineer, one of the last things we ever did was documentation. But now that we have the API is from the infrastructure. And then the ability to tie that into other systems like an IP address management or a change control, or a trouble ticketing system, that whole idea of I made an infrastructure change. And now I can automatically do that documentation update and record. I know who did it. I know when they did it and I know what they did, and I know what the test results were even five years ago, that was fantasy land. Now, today that's just the new normal, that's just how we all operate. >>Right. Right, right. So I want to get your take on the other trend, which is cloud multicloud, public cloud. You know, as, as I think you said Brad, when public cloud first came out, there was kind of this, this rush into, we're going to throw everything in there then for, for, for different reasons. People decided maybe that's not the best, the best solution, but really it's horses for courses. Right. And, and I think it was pretty interesting that, that you guys are all supporting the customers that are trying to figure out where they're going to put their workloads. And Oh, by the way, that might not be a static place, right. It might be moving around based on, you know, maybe I do my initial dev and, and, and Amazon. And then when I go into production, maybe I want to move it into my data center. >>And then maybe I'm having a big promotion or something I want to flex capability. So from, from your perspective and helping customers work through this, because still there's a lot of opinions about what is multicloud, what is hybrid cloud and, you know, it's horses for courses. How are you helping people navigate that? And what does having programmable infrastructure enable you to do for helping customers kind of sort through, you know, everybody talks about their journey. I think there's still kind of bumbling down, bumbling down paths, trying to find new things, what works, what doesn't work. And I think it's still really early days and trying to mesh all this stuff together. Yeah, >>Yeah. No doubt. It is still early days. And you know, I, I, I go back to it being application centric because, you know, being able to understand that application, when you move to the cloud, it may not look like, what did he still look like when you, when you move it over there, you may be breaking parts off of it. Some of them might be running on a platform as a service while other pieces of it are running as infrastructure as a service. >>And some of it might still be in your data center. Those applications are becoming much more complex than they used to be because we're breaking them apart into different services. Those services could live all over the place. So with automation, we really gain the power of being able to combine those things. As I mentioned earlier, those resources, wherever they are, can be defined in that infrastructure as code and automation. But you know, the side from provisioning, I think we focus a lot about provisioning. When we talk about automation, we also have these amazing capabilities on, on the side of operations too. Like we've got streaming telemetry in the ability to, to gain insights into what's going on in ways that we didn't have before, or at least in the, in, you know, in the early days of monitoring software, right. You knew exactly what that device was, where it was. >>It probably had a friendly name, like maybe it was, uh, something from the Hobbit right now. You've got things coming up and spinning and spinning up and spinning down, moving all over the place. And that thing you used to know what that was. Now, you have to quickly figure out where it went. So the observability factor is a huge thing that I think everybody should be paying attention to attention, to moving forward with regards to when you're moving things to the cloud or even to other data centers or, you know, in your premise, um, breaking that into microservices, you really need to understand what's going on in the, you know, programmability and API APIs and, you know, yang models are tied into streaming telemetry. Now there's just so many great things coming out of this, you know, and it's all like a data structure that, that people who are going down this path and the dev net path, they're learning these data structures and being able to rationalize and make sense of them. And once you understand that, then all of these things come together, whether it's cloud or a router or switch, um, Amazon, you know, it doesn't matter. You're, you're all speaking a common language, which is that data structure. >>That's great. Chuck, I want to shift gears a little bit, cause there was something that you said in another interview when I was getting ready for this one about, about Deb, not really opening up a whole different class of partners for Cisco, um, as, as really more of a software, a software lead versus kind of the traditional networking lead. I wonder if you can put a little more color on that. Um, because clearly as you said, partners are super important. It's your primary go to market and, and Presidios, I'm sure the best partner that you have in the whole world that's and you know, you said there's some, there's some non traditional people that would not ever be a Cisco partner that suddenly you guys are playing with because of really software lead. >>Yeah. Jeff that's exactly right. So as we've been talking to folks with dev nets and whether it'd be at one of the Cisco live events in the dev net zone or at the prior dev net create events, we'll have, we'll have people come up to us who Cisco today views us as a customer because they're not in our partner ecosystem. They want to be able to deliver these capabilities to our customers, but they have no interest in being in the resell market. This what we're doing with the dev that specialization gives us the ability to bring those partners into the ecosystem, share them with our extremely large dev net community so they can get access to those, to those potential customers. But also it allows us to do partner to partner type of integration. So Brad and Presidio, they built a fantastic networking. They always have the fantastic networking business, but they built this fantastic automation business that's there, but they may come into, into a scenario where it's working with their vertical and working with the technology piece, that they may not have an automation practice for. >>We can leverage some of these software specific partners to come in there and do a joint, go to markets where, so they can go where that traditional channel partner can leverage their deep Cisco knowledge in those customer relationships that they have and bring in that software partner almost as a subcontractor to help them deliver that additional business value on top of that traditional stack, that brings us to this business outcomes. If the customers are looking for and a much faster fashion and a much more collaborative fashion, that's terrific. Well, again, it's a, it's, it's unfortunate that we can't be in person. I mean, the, the Cisco dev net shows, you know, they're still small, they're still intimate. There's still a lot of, uh, information sharing and, you know, great to see you. And like I said, we've been at the computer museum, I think the last couple of years and in, in San Francisco. So I look forward to a time that we can actually be together, uh, maybe, maybe for next year's event, but, uh, thank you very much for stopping by and sharing the information. Really appreciate it. It happens happy to be here >>From around the globe. It's the cube presenting, accelerating automation with dev net brought to you by Cisco. What I'm Sean for the cube, your host for accelerating automation with dev net with Cisco. And we're here to close out the virtual event with Mindy Whaley, senior director, Mandy, take it away. >>Thank you, John. It's been great to be here at this virtual event, hearing all these different automation stories from our different technology groups, from customers and partners. And what I'd like to take a minute now is to let people know how they can continue this experience at dev net create, which is our free virtual event happening globally. On October 13th, there's going to be some really fun stuff. We're going to have our annual demo jam, which is kind of like an open for demos where the community gets to show what they've been building. We're also going to be, um, giving out and recognizing our dev net creator award winners for this year, which is a really great time where we recognize our community contributors who have been giving back to the community throughout the year. And then we find really interesting channels. We have our creators channels, which is full of technical talks, lightening talks. >>This is where our community, external Cisco people come in share what they've been working on, what they've been working learning during the year. We also have a channel called API action, which is where you can go deep into IOT or collaboration or data center automation and get demos talks from engineers on how to do certain use cases. And also a new segment called straight from engineering, where you get to hear from the engineers, building those products as well. And we have a start now for those people just getting started, who may need to dive into some basics around coding, API APIs and get that's a whole channel dedicated to getting them started so that they can start to participate in some of the fun challenges that we're going to have during the event. And we're going to have a few fun things. Like we have some definite, um, advocate team members who are awesome, musically talented. They're going to share some performances with us. So, um, we encourage everyone to join us there. Pick your favorite channel, uh, join us in whichever time zone you live in. Cause we'll be in three different time zones. And, um, we would love for you to be there and to hear from you during the event. >>That's awesome. Very innovative, multiple time zones, accelerating automation with dev net. Thank you so much for watching and we'll see you at dev net create thanks for watching.

(soft music) >> From around the globe, it's theCUBE. Presenting, Accelerating Automation with DevNet, brought to you by Cisco. >> And welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We have our ongoing coverage of the Cisco DevNet event. It's really Accelerating with Automation and Programmability in the new normal. And we know the new normal is definitely continuing to go. We've been doing this since the middle of March and now we're in October. So, we're excited to have our next guest. He's Thomas Scheibe, he is the vice president of product management for data center for Cisco, Thomas, great to see you. >> Hey, good to see you too. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, and truly run it in normal as everybody can see on our background. >> Exactly, so, I mean, I'm curious, we've talked to a lot of people. We talked to a lot of leaders, you know, especially like back in March and April with this light switch moment, which was, you know, no time to prep, and suddenly everybody has to work from home. Teachers got to teach from home. And so you got the kids home, you got the spouse home, everybody's home trying to get on the network and do their zoom calls and their classes. I'm curious from your perspective, you guys are right there on the network, you're right in the infrastructure. What did you hear and see kind of from your customers when suddenly, you know, March 16th hit and everybody had to go home? >> Well, (laughs) good point, hey, I do think we all appreciate the network much more than we used to do before. And then the only other difference is I'm really more on WebEx calls and zoom calls, but, you know, otherwise yes. What I do see actually is that as I said network becomes much more operas as a critical piece. And so before we really talked a lot about agility and flexibility, these days we talk much more about resiliency quite frankly, and what do I need to have in place with respect to network to get my things from left to right. And you know, north to south and east to west, as we see in the data center. >> Right. >> And touches as for most of my customers, a very, very important topic at this point. >> Right, you know, it's amazing to think, you know, had this happened, you know, five years ago, 10 years ago, you know, the ability for so many people in the information industry to be able to actually make that transition relatively seamlessly is actually pretty amazing. I'm sure there was (chuckles) some excitement and some kudos in terms of, you know, it is all based on the network and it is kind of this quiet thing in the background that nobody pays attention to. It's like a ref in the football game until they make a bad play. So, you know, it is pretty fascinating that you and your colleagues have put this infrastructure and that enabled us to really make that move with really no prep, no planning and actually have a whole lot of services delivered into our homes that we're used to getting at the office or are used to getting at school. >> Yeah, and I mean, to your point, I mean, some of us did some planning. We clearly talking about some of these trends and the way I look at this trend as being distributed data centers and having the ability to move your workloads and access for users to wherever you want to be. And so I think that clearly went on for a while. And so, in a sense we prep was our normal we're prepping for. But as I said, resiliency just became so much more important. And, you know, one of the things I actually do a little preview for a blog I put out end of August around resiliency. If you didn't put this in place, you better put it in place. Because I think as we all know, we saw it in March this is like maybe two or three months, we're now in October. And I think this is the new normal for some time being. >> Yeah, I think so. So, let's stick on that theme in terms of trends, right? The other great trend is public cloud and hybrid cloud and multi cloud. There's all types of variants on that theme, you had in that blog post about resiliency in data center cloud networking, data center cloud. You know, some people think, wait, it's kind of an either or I either got my data center or I've got my stuff in the cloud and I've got public cloud. And then as I said, hybrid cloud, you're talking really specifically about enabling both inner data center resiliency within multi data center resiliency within the same enterprise as well as connecting to the cloud. That's probably counterintuitive for some people to think that that's something that Cisco is excited about and supporting. So, I wonder if you can share, you know, kind of how the market is changing, how you guys are reacting and really putting the things in place to deliver customer choice. >> Yeah, no, it's actually, to me, it's really not counterintuitive because in the end, what I'm focusing on and the company is focusing on is what our customers want to do and need to do. And that's really, you know, most people call hybrid cloud or multicloud. In the end, what it is is really the ability to have the flexibility, to move your workloads where you want them to be. And there are different reasons why you want to place them, right? You might've placed them for security reason. You might played some compliance reasons depending on which customer segment you're after. If you're in the United States or in Europe or in Asia, there are a lot of different reasons where you're going to put your syncs. And so I think in the end what an enterprise looks for is that agility, flexibility, and resiliency. And so really what you want to put in place is what we call like a cloud on ramp, right? You need to have an ability to move syncs as needed. But the logic context section which we see in the last couple of months accelerating is really this whole theme around digital transformation, which goes hand in hand than was the requirement on the IT side really do. And IT operations transformation, right? How IT operates. And I think that's really exciting to see, and this was excellent. Well, a lot of my discussions I was customized. What does it actually mean with respect to the IT organization? And what are the operational changes there's a lot of our customers are going through quite frankly accelerated going through? >> Right, and automation is in the title of the event. So, automation is an increasingly important thing, you know, as we know, and we hear all the time, you know, the flows of data, the complexity of the data. Either on the security or the way the network's moving, or as you said, shifting workloads around, based on the dynamic situations, whether that's business security, et cetera. And a software defined networking has been around for a while. How are you seeing kind of this evolution in adding more automation, you know, to more and more processes to free up those you know, kind of limited resources in terms of really skilled people to focus on the things that they should be focused on and not stuff that hopefully you can, you know, get a machine to run with some level of automation. >> Yeah, that's a good point. And I said, TechLine, I have, you know, sometimes when my mind is really going from CloudReady, which is in most of our infrastructure is today to cloud-native. And so let me a little expand on those, right? It's like the CloudReady is basically what we have put in place over the last five to six years, all the infrastructure that our customers have, network infrastructure or the Nexus 9000, they're all CloudReady, right? And what this really means, you have APIs everywhere, right? Whether this is on the box, whether it's on the controller, whether this is on the operations tools, all of these are API enabled. And that's just the foundation for automation, right? You have to have that. Now, the next step really is what do you do with that capability, right? And this is the integration with a lot of automation tools and that's the whole range, right? This is where the IT operation transformation kicks in different customers at different speed, right? Some just, you know, I use these APIs and use normal tools that they have on a network world just to pull information. Some customers go for further saying, "I want to integrate this with some CMDB tools." Some go even further and saying, "This is like the cloud-native (indistinct), "Oh, I want to use, let's say, Red Hat Ansible, or I want to use (indistinct) Terraform and use those things to actually drive how I managed my infrastructure. And so that's really the combination of the automation capability plus the integration was relevant cloud-native enabling tools that really is happening at this point. We're seeing customers accelerating in that motion. Which really then drives us how they run their IT operations. >> Right. >> And so that's a pretty exciting area to see. given as I said, we have the infrastructure in place. There's no need for customers to actually do change something. Most of them have already the infrastructures that can do this. It's just not doing the operational change the process change is to actually get there. >> Right, and it's funny, we recently covered, you know, PagerDuty and they highlight what you just talked about, the cloud-native, which is, you know, all of these applications now are so interdependent on all these different API, you know, pulling data from all these technical applications. So, hey, when they work great, it's terrific. But if there's a problem, you know, there's a whole lot of potential throats to choke out there and find those issues. And it's all being connected via the network. So, you know, it's even more critically important, not only for the application, but for all these little tiny components within the application to deliver, you know, ultimately a customer experience within very small units of time. So, that you don't lose that customer. You complete that transaction. They check out of their shopping cart. You know, all these things that are now created with cloud-native applications that just couldn't really do before. >> Now, you're absolutely right. And this is like, just as I said, I'm actually very excited because it opens up a lot of abilities for our customers. How they want to actually structure the operation, right? One of the nice things around this whole automation plus cloud network tool integration is you actually opened us up not a sole automation training, not just to the network operations personnel, right? You also open it up and can use those for the SecOps person or for the DevOps person or for the CloudOps engineering team, right? Because the way it's structured, the way we built this, it's literally as an API interface and you can now decide, what is your process? Do you want to have a more traditional process, you have to request, a network operation teams executes the request using these tools and then hands it back over. Or do you say, "Hey, maybe some of these security things, "I can hand over the SecOps team and they can "directly call these APIs, right?" Or even one step further, you can have the opportunity that the DevOps or the application team actually says, "Hey, I going to write a whole infrastructure as code "kind of a script or template, and I just execute, right?" And it's really just using what the infrastructure provides. And so that whole range of different user roles in our customer base, what they can do with the automation capability that's available. It's just very, very exciting way because it literally unleashes a lot of flexibility. How they want to structure and how they want to rebuild the IT operations processes. >> That's interesting, you know, 'cause the, you know, the DevOps culture has taken over a lot, right? Obviously changed software programming for the last 20 years. And I think, you know, there's a lot of just kind of the concept of DevOps versus necessarily, you know, the actual things that you do to execute that technique. And I don't think most people would think of, you know, NetworkOps or, NetOps, whatever the equivalent is in the networking world to have kind of a fast changing dynamic kind of point of view versus a stick it in, spec it, stick it in, lock it down. So, I wonder if you can, you can share how, kind of that DevOps attitude point of view, workflow, whatever the right verb is has impacted things at Cisco in the way you guys think about networking and flexibility within the networking world. >> Yeah, literally, absolutely. And again, it's all customer driven, right? It's none of these is really actually, you know, a little bit of credit, maybe some of us where we have a vision, but a lot of it is just customer driven feedback. And yeah, we do have EU Network Operations Teams come to you saying, "Hey, we use Ansible heavily on the compute, "so, we might use this for Alpha Seven. "We want to use the same for networking." And so we made available all these integrations with sobriety as a state, whether these are the switches, whether these are ACI and dc network controller or our multi site orchestration capabilities, all of these has Ansible integration the way to the right. The other one as I mentioned that how she formed Tarco Terraform, we have integrations available and they see the requests for these tools to use that. And so that is the motion we're in for over a year now. And another blog actually is out there we just posted saying, Yeah, all set what you can do. And then a parallel to this, right? Just making the integration available. We also have a very, very heavy focus on definite and enablement and training. And, you know, a little plucking I know probably part of the segment, the whole definite community that Cisco has is very, very vibrant. And the beauty of this is right. If you look at us, whether you're a NetOps person or a DevOps person or a SecOps person, it doesn't really matter. There's a lot of like capability available to just help you get going or go from one level to the next level, right? And there's simple things like sandbox environments where you can, you know, without stress try things out, snippets of code are there, you can do all of these things. And so we do see it's a kind of a push and pull a tremendous amount of interest and a tremendous time people spend to learn. Quite frankly then, that's another side product of the suggestion when people say, "Oh man, and say, okay, online learning is the thing." So, these tools are used very heavily. >> Right. That's awesome 'cause you know, we've had Susie Leon a number of times and I know he and Mandy and the team, right? Really built this DevNet thing. And it really follows along this other theme that we see consistently across other pieces of tech, which is democratization, right? Democratization is the access tool, taking it out of just a mahogany row with, again, a really limited number of people that know how to make it work. And it can make the changes in an opening up to a software defined world where now it's application centric point of view, where the people that are building the apps to go create competitive advantage now don't have to wait for, you know, the one network person to help them out in and out of these environments really interesting. And I wonder if, you know, when you look at what's happened with public cloud and how they kind of changed the buying parameter, how they kind of changed the degree of difficulty to get project started, you know, how you guys have kind of integrated that type of thought process to make it easier for app developers to get their job done. >> Yeah, I mean, again, I typically look at this more from a customer lens, right? It's the transformation process and it always starts as I want agility, I want flexibility and I want resiliency, right? This is where we talk to a business owner what they're looking for. And then that translates into an IT operations process, right? Your strategy needs to map then how you actually do this. And that just drives then what tools do you want to have available to actually enable this, right? And the enablement again is for different roles, right? You need to give sync services to the app developer and the platform team and the security team, right? To your point so the network can act at the same speed. But you also give tools to the network operations teams because they need to adjust then, they have the ability to react to some of these requirements, right? And it's not just automation, I said we focused on that, but there's also to your point, the need, how do I extend between data centers? You know, just for backup and recovery, and how do I extend into public clouds, right? And in the end that's a network connectivity problem, and we have solved as, we have meters available, we have integrations into AWS. We have integrations into Ajua to actually make this very easy from a network perspective to extend your private domains, private networks into which have private networks on these public clouds. So, from an app developer perspective, now it looks like it's on the same network. It's a protective enterprise network. Some of it might sit here, some of it might sit here. But it's really looking the same. And that's really in the end I said what a business looks at, right? They don't necessarily want to say, I need you to have something separate for this deployment or separate for that deployment. What they want is I need you to deploy something. I need to do this resilience. And the resilient way and an agile way gives me the tools. And so that's really where we focused and what we're driving, right? It's that combination of automation consistently, and then definite tools available that we support, but they're all open. They're all standard tools as the ones I mentioned, right? That everybody's using. So, you're not getting into this, "Oh, this is specific to Cisco, right? It's really democratization, I actually liked your term. >> Yeah, it's a great term and it's really interesting, especially with the APIs and the way everything is so tied together. That everyone kind of has to enable this because that's what the customer is demanding. And it is all about the applications and the workloads and where those things are moving, but they don't really want to manage that. They just want to, you know, deliver business benefit to their customers in respond to, you know, competitive threats in the marketplace, et cetera. So, it's really an interesting time for the infrastructure to really support kind of this app first point of view, versus the other way around is kind of what it used to be. And enable this hyper fast development, hyper fast change in the competitive landscape or else you will be left behind. So, super important stuff. >> Yeah, no, I totally agree. And as I said, I mean, it's kind of interesting because we started on the Cisco data center. It's where we started this probably six or seven years ago. When we named the application-centric, clearly a lot of these concepts evolved. But in a sense it is that reversal of the role from the network provides something and you use to, this is what I want to do. And I need a service thinking on the networking side to expose services that can be consumed. And so that clearly is playing out. And as I said, automation is a key foundation that we put in place. And our customers most of our customers at this point are on these products. They have all the capabilities there are. They can literally take advantage. There's really nothing that stops them at this point. >> Well, it's good times for you because I'm sure you've seen all the memes in social media, right? What's driving your digital transformation is the CEO, the CMO or COVID. And we all know the answer to the question. So, I don't think the pace of change is going to slow down anytime soon. So, (indistinct) keeping the network up and enabling us all to get done what we have to get done and all the little magic that happens behind the scenes. >> Yeah, I know, thanks for having me and again, yeah, if you're listening and you're wondering, how do I get started? Cisco definitely is the place to go. It's, you know, fantastic, fantastic environment. And I highly recommend everybody, roll up the sleeves and you know, the best reasons you can have. >> Yeah, and we know once the physical events come back, we've been to DevNet Create a bunch of times, and it's a super vibrant, super excited, really engaged community, sharing lots of information. It's still kind of that early vibe, you know, where everyone is still really enthusiastic and really about learning and sharing information. So, like Susie and the team have really built a great thing and we're happy to continue to cover it and eventually we'll be back face to face. >> Okay, (chuckles) look forward to that as well. >> All right, thanks. He's Thomas and I'm Jeff you're watching continuing coverage of CiscoDevNet Accelerating With Automation and Programmability. Thanks for watching, we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders around the globe, these are cloud native insights. >> Welcome to another episode of Cloud Native Insights. I'm your host Stu Miniman and of course with Cloud Native Insights will really help understand you know, where we have gone from cloud, how we are taking advantage of innovation, a real driver for what happens in the spaces of course developers. You think back to the early days, it was often developers that were grabbing a credit card, using cloud services and then it had to be integrated into what was being done and the rest of the organization saw the large rise of DevOps and all the other pieces around that, that help bring in things like security and finance and the like. Happy to welcome to the program first time guest, William Janssen. He is the CEO of DeltaBlue. Deep in this discussion of cloud native DeltaBlue is a European company helping with continuous deployment across cross cloud providers in the space. William, thanks so much for joining us, nice to see you. >> Glad to be on the show, thank you Stu. >> All right, so one of the reasons I'm glad to have you on is because of some of the early episodes here, you know we were discussing really what cloud native is and what it should be. I had my first interview on the program, Joep Piscaer, who you know, had given the analogy and said when you talked about DevOps, DevOps isn't something you could buy. But it's something that lots of vendors would try to sell you. And we're trying to dispel, lots of companies out there, they're like, "Oh, cloud native, well we support Kubernetes. "And we have this tool and you should buy our cloud native, "you know, A, B, C or D." So, want to start a little first with what you see out there and what you think the ultimate goal and outcome of cloud native should be? >> I think cloud native, to start with your last question, I think cloud native should make life fun again. We have a lot of technical problems, we solve them in technical things. You mentioned Kubernetes but Kubernetes is solving a technical problem. And introducing another technical problem. So what I think cloud native should do is focus on what you're actually good at. So a developer should develop. Someone from the infrastructure, an operator, should focus on their key points and not try to mix it up. So, not Kubernetes, Kubernetes is again introducing another technical issue. Our view on cloud native is that people should have fun again and should be focusing on what they're good at. And so it's not about technology, it's about getting the procedures right and focusing on the things you love to do. And not to talk to the cross border, talk to a lot of developers and solve operational kind of things. That's what we try to solve and that's our view of cloud native. >> Yeah, I'll poke that a little bit because one thing you say, people should do what they're good at. It's really what is important for the business, what do we need to get done? There's often new skills that we need to do. So it's really great if we could just keep doing the same thing we're doing. We know how to do it. We optimize it, we play with all of our geek knobs. But the drumbeat that I hear is, we need to be agile, we need to be able to create new applications. IT needs to be responsive for the business and rather than in the past it was about, building this beautiful stack that we could optimize and build these pieces together. Today, the analogy I hear more is, there's layers out there, there's lots of different tooling, especially if you look at the developer world. There is just too many options out there. So, maybe bring us a little bit as to you know, what DeltaBlue does. How you look at allowing developers to build what they, new things that they need but not be, I guess the word, locked into a certain place or certain technology. >> Yes, I've been on IT for 20 years. So I've seen a lot of things go around. And when we started out with DeltaBlue, the only thing we had in mind is how could we make the lifecycle of applications and all the things you had to do, the government around applications way more easy. Back in the days, we already saw that containerization solved some of the issues. But it solves technical issues. So like when you start coding, you don't need to go to the network card anymore. We took the same approach to our cloud native approach. So we started on the top level. We started with applications in mind. And the things back in the day you had Bitnami already had the option to have a VM or standard installation of an application. So what we see is that nowadays, many developers and many organizations try to focus on that specific part, how to get your code into some kind of under configuration solution. We take that for granted. There are so many great solutions out there, already tried to solve that problem. So instead of reinventing that wheel again, we take that for granted. But we take another approach. We think that if the application is there, you need to test it. You need to take it into production. You want to have several versions of a specific application into the production environment. So what we've tried to solve with our platform is to make that part of the life cycle, let's call it horizontal version of your application lifecycle, not getting an application built or running up different stuff, we take that for granted. We take the horizontal approach. How to get your traditional application from your development environment to your testing, acceptance. That's a different kind of people test your application, security testing before you take it into production. And that should be all be done from a logical point of view. So we built one web interface, a logical portal. And you can simply drag and drop any type of application, not just a more than micro service oriented or Kubernetes based application but any type of application from your acceptance environment to your production environment. That's going to solve the real problem. So now, any business can have 10 different acceptance environments for even your old legacy SAP or your Intershop environment. That's going to get your business value. So going back to your definition of cloud native, getting that kind of abstraction between getting your and code your application and get it get somewhere up and running and all the stuff that's needs to be done from your development environment into the production environment. That's going to add to your business value. That's going to speed up your time to market, that's going to make sure that you have a better cloud quality because now you can test even your legacy application from 10 different points of view and 10 different types of different branches, all in a parallel environment. So, when we started with DeltaBlue, we took a different approach, took the technical stuff for granted, and focus on all the government around applications and the governance that's the thing, I think that's the most important part in the cloud native discussion. >> So governance, especially in Europe, has a lot of importance there. If you could, bring us inside a little bit, customers you're talking to, where they are in this journey. If you've got an example of something you're doing specifically we'd love to hear how that happens in real world. >> Yes we have many different customers but I think one of our best examples, for example is Wunderman Thompson, a big eCommerce party across the globe but also here in the Netherlands. And we made a blueprint of their development environment the way they develop application and the way they host applications. So, now they started a new project, 40 developers go to the new big eCommerce application. In the past, everyone had to install their own Intershop environment on their own laptop, Java, Oracle, that kind of stuff. It took me a day and a half. Since we abstracted that into like a simple cell, like you would do in any serverless environment nowadays, they can now simply click on a button. And since they made their laptop or their development environment part of our platform, they can now simply drag and drop the complete initial environment to the laptop and they can send development in 10 minutes instead of a day and a half. That's just the first step that makes their life easier. But also imagine, we have an application up and running for two, three months and our security patch, we all know the trouble of getting a patch installed in production but also then install it into the acceptance environment, test environment, development environment, all those kind of different versions. With our platform, since we have the application in mind, we can, with simple one simple click of the button, we can propagate that security patch across all the different environments. So from a developer point of view, there's no need to have any kind of knowledge of course they need to configure a port or something like that but no need of knowledge of any type of infrastructure anymore. We have made the same blueprint for the complete development environment. So with a single click of the button, they have a complete detail environment, known over the need to go to their infrastructure to get the service to their operating guys, they have them installed, industrial Nexus, very book of repository, all that kind of stuff. It's all within one blueprint. So again, we think that the application should come first. That should be abstracted, and not abstracted just in a single spin up a container or spinning up a VM. Now, the complete business case, application, complete environment should be up and running with a single click of a button. So now they can start if they have a demo tomorrow, for example, and they want to have a demo setup. With a single click, they have a complete environment up and running, instead of having to wait three weeks, four weeks before they can start coding. And the same comes with a production environment. We now have an intelligent proxy in front of it. So they can have three different versions of the same shot in their production environment. And based on business rules, we can spread the load against the different versions of a business application, eCommerce application. We signed a new contract with New Relic last week. And the next thing we're going to do, and it's going to be there in two weeks, is fit New Relic data, I mean, an eCommerce application is about performance. A longer response time of a page page load time will drop your drop your revenue. So what we're going to do with New Relic is feed it's performance data back into that the intelligent proxy in front of their application. So now they're going to drop the new version of their intershop application on a Thursday evening, they go to sleep. Friday morning, they wake up and from the three versions, and the best performing website will be up and running. That's the kind of intelligence and that's the kind of feedback we can put into our platform since we started with applications in mind first. It's getting better quality, because you can do better testing. I mean, we all want to test, but we never want to wait for those different kinds of setups, they want to have fast development cycles. That kind of flexibility where you do the functional deployment, the functional release, not the technical stuff. What we now see in the market is that most people, when they go to the cloud, try to solve the technical release problems of getting the application up and running in a technical way into the production time, we try to focus on the functional level. >> So, William, being data driven, a very important piece of what you talked about there. What I want to help our audience understand is concerns about if you talk about abstractions, or if you want to be able to live across different environments, is can you take advantage of the full capabilities of the underlying platform? Because, that is, one of the reasons we go to cloud isn't just because it's got limitless compute Pricing comes down. But there's only new features coming out, or I want to be able to go to, a cloud provider and take advantage of some specific feature. So help us understand how I can live across these environments, but still take advantage of those cloud native features and innovations as they come out. >> Great. There are actually two ways. For most alternatives, we also have an alternative component in our platform as well. We have complete marketplace with all kinds of functionality like AWS has, but I can imagine that people want to develop an AWS and get our AWS lambda functions or s3 buckets or that that kind of specific functionality. And going back to the Intershop example, they run their application as a CaaS solution on Azure. So when you went to Azure DevOps, or that kind of specific functionality included, our platform connects over 130 different data centers across the globe and Azure and AWS, and Oviedo Digital Ocean are all part of the huge mix of different cloud providers. For every provider, we have what we call gateway components. We deploy natively, mostly bare metal or equivalents of bare metal within those cloud providers. And we made an abstraction layer on the network layer. So now we can include those kind of specific services like they were part of our platform natively. Because if we would have just build a layer and couldn't use the specific components of an AWS or an Azure or that kind of stuff, we would just be another hosting provider. I haven't liked VMware. So that kind of stuff. We want to and we are aware that we need to include a specific stuff, functionality. And what we do with this with what we call gateway components. So we have AWS, gay components, educators, but also for IBM, or Google specific environment. So we can combine the network of AWS, with our specific network. And that's possible, because we made a complete abstraction layer between the network of the infrastructure provider and our network. So we can complete IP subnets DNS resolver as if it was running on their local environment. And thereby, since we have that abstraction layer, we can even move the workloads on AWS to Azure. And since we have the abstraction layer network, we can even make sure that you don't need to reconfigure your application. I think that's the flexibility that people are looking for. And if they have a specific workload and Azure and it's getting too expensive, for the ones that includes AWS stuff, they want to shift the workload to different kind of cloud providers based on the characteristics of a specific worker, or even if you want to have the cheapest option, you can even use your on premise data center. >> William, do that there absolutely is interest in doing that. One of the barriers to being able to just go between environments is of course that the skills required to do this. So, there's something to be said about, if I use a single provider, I understand how to do it, I understand how to optimize it, I understand the finances of it. And while there may be very similar things in another cloud, or in my own data center, the management tools are different and everything. So how do we overcome, that skill set challenge, between different environments. >> We had a different approach the same as we do it on application level, we took it also in data center level, so we're going to handle most cannot say all because there's always specific components. But from our interface, you can simply go to a specific application and select the type of data center you want to run on your application. And if your application is running on an AWS, you get the gateway components with the components, like an s3 bucket or a lambda or an RDS, based on the data center you're running in. So we took that abstraction layer even on that level. But I got to be honest, I think 80% of our customers is not interested in the data center, they run their application in unless they have specific functionality, and which is not available on our platform, or they have a long running application, or use a specific or they bought a specific application. Otherwise, they don't care. Because from a traditional application, there is no difference between running on Azure or Google Cloud or an IBM cloud or whatever. The main difference is that we can make a guarantee about the SLA. I mean, IBM has a better uptime guarantee. A better performance and a better network compared to let's say, digitalocean. Kind of set this up. But there is a huge difference. But it's more like the guarantee that we can give them. So we have this abstraction layers, and we try to put as many as possible as much as possible into our portal interface. There will no way that we're going to redesign and we work about the complete AWS interface, or we're not going to include 100% of their functionality. That's not possible. We're, small company. AWS is somewhat more developers in place. But the main components and people are asking for like RDS or these kind of specific setups, that's where we have the gateway components for available and they can include them into their own application. But we also going to advise them why they were looking for those specific AWS components. Is it within the application architecture or is it something gauges right? Isn't there a better solution or an other solution? And I think, since we have that objection that one of the biggest benefits is, and what we see our customers also do is we incorporate that data center into our platform. And we have one huge network across all the cloud providers and including their own data center. So in the past, they had to have two different development teams, one specialized in AWS development, with all that kind of specific stuff. And all one development team which had more like a traditional point of view, because their internal system and data which was not allowed to go outside the company or had to stay within the firewall. And since we have now one big network, which is transparent to them, we can make sure that their code for their internal systems stays internal and is running on internal systems. But we could still use some kind of functionality from the outside. We do it all unencrypted today, and we have one big platform available. So with our gateway components, we can make sure that that data and application data is really staying internally. And only is allowed to grow internal data access and that kind of stuff, but still use external functionality or price. But again, I would say 80% of our customers, they don't care because they just want to get rid of the burden. I think going back to what we think cloud native means is just getting rid of the burden. And you shouldn't be concerned about what type of cloud we're actually using. >> Absolutely, William, the goal of infrastructure support, my applications and my data and we want companies to be able to focus on what is important for the business and not get bogged down and certain technical arguments introduction. So William, thank you so much for joining us. Really great to hear about Delta blue. Looking forward to hearing more in the future. >> Thank you. >> I'm Stu Miniman. And look forward to hearing more of your cloud native insights.

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE Conversation. (smooth music) >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, and welcome to this special exclusive presentation from theCUBE. We're digging into Pensando and their Future Proof Your Enterprise event. To help kick things off, welcoming in a friend of the program, Scott Raynovich. He is the principal analyst at Futuriom coming to us from Montana. I believe first time we've had a guest on the program in the state of Montana, so Scott, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks, Stu, happy to be here. >> All right, so we're going to dig a lot into Pensando. They've got their announcement with Hewlett Packard Enterprise. Might help if we give a little bit of background, and definitely I want Scott and I to talk a little bit about where things are in the industry, especially what's happening in networking, and how some of the startups are helping to impact what's happening on the market. So for those that aren't familiar with Pensando, if you followed networking I'm sure you are familiar with the team that started them, so they are known, for those of us that watch the industry, as MPLS, which are four people, not to be confused with the protocol MPLS, but they had very successfully done multiple spin-ins for Cisco, Andiamo, Nuova and Insieme, which created Fibre Channel switches, the Cisco UCS, and the ACI product line, so multiple generations to the Nexus, and Pensando is their company. They talk about Future Proof Your Enterprise is the proof point that they have today talking about the new edge. John Chambers, the former CEO of Cisco, is the chairman of Pensando. Hewlett Packard Enterprise is not only an investor, but also a customer in OEM piece of this solution, and so very interesting piece, and Scott, I want to pull you into the discussion. The waves of technology, I think, the last 10, 15 years in networking, a lot it has been can Cisco be disrupted? So software-defined networking was let's get away from hardware and drive towards more software. Lots of things happening. So I'd love your commentary. Just some of the macro trends you're seeing, Cisco's position in the marketplace, how the startups are impacting them. >> Sure, Stu. I think it's very exciting times right now in networking, because we're just at the point where we kind of have this long battle of software-defined networking, like you said, really pushed by the startups, and there's been a lot of skepticism along the way, but you're starting to see some success, and the way I describe it is we're really on the third generation of software-defined networking. You have the first generation, which was really one company, Nicira, which VMware bought and turned into their successful NSX product, which is a virtualized networking solution, if you will, and then you had another round of startups, people like Big Switch and Cumulus Networks, all of which were acquired in the last year. Big Switch went to Arista, and Cumulus just got purchased by... Who were they purchased by, Stu? >> Purchased by Nvidia, who interestingly enough, they just picked up Mellanox, so watching Nvidia build out their stack. >> Sorry, I was having a senior moment. It happens to us analysts. (chuckling) But yeah, so Nvidia's kind of rolling up these data center and networking plays, which is interesting because Nvidia is not a traditional networking hardware vendor. It's a chip company. So what you're seeing is kind of this vision of what they call in the industry disaggregation. Having the different components sold separately, and then of course Cisco announced the plan to roll out their own chip, and so that disaggregated from the network as well. When Cisco did that, they acknowledged that this is successful, basically. They acknowledged that disaggregation is happening. It was originally driven by the large public cloud providers like Microsoft Azure and Amazon, which started the whole disaggregation trend by acquiring different components and then melding it all together with software. So it's definitely the future, and so there's a lot of startups in this area to watch. I'm watching many of them. They include ArcOS, which is a exciting new routing vendor. DriveNets, which is another virtualized routing vendor. This company Alkira, which is going to do routing fully in the cloud, multi-cloud networking. Aviatrix, which is doing multi-cloud networking. All these are basically software companies. They're not pitching hardware as part of their value add, or their integrated package, if you will. So it's a different business model, and it's going to be super interesting to watch, because I think the third generation is the one that's really going to break this all apart. >> Yeah, you brought up a lot of really interesting points there, Scott. That disaggregation, and some of the changing landscape. Of course that more than $1 billion acquisition of Nicira by VMware caused a lot of tension between VMware and Cisco. Interesting. I think back when to Cisco created the UCS platform it created a ripple effect in the networking world also. HP was a huge partner of Cisco's before UCS launched, and not long after UCS launched HP stopped selling Cisco gear. They got heavier into the networking component, and then here many years later we see who does the MPLS team partner with when they're no longer part of Cisco, and Chambers is no longer the CEO? Well, it's HPE front and center there. You're going to see John Chambers at HPE Discover, so it was a long relationship and change. And from the chip companies, Intel, of course, has built a sizeable networking business. We talked a bit about Mellanox and the acquisitions they've done. One you didn't mention but caused a huge impact in the industry, and something that Pensando's responding to is Amazon, but Annapurna Labs, and Annapurna Labs, a small Israeli company, and really driving a lot of the innovation when it comes to compute and networking at Amazon. The Graviton, Compute, and Nitro is what powers their Outposts solutions, so if you look at Amazon, they buy lots of pieces. It's that mixture of hardware and software. In early days people thought that they just bought kind of off-the-shelf white boxes and did it cheap, but really we see Amazon really hyper optimizes what they're doing. So Scott, let's talk a little bit about Pensando if we can. Amazon with the Nitro solutions built to Outposts, which is their hybrid solution, so the same stack that they put in Amazon they can now put in customers' data center. What Pensando's positioning is well, other cloud providers and enterprise, rather than having to buy something from Amazon, we're going to enable that. So what do you think about what you've seen and heard from Pensando, and what's that need in the market for these type of solutions? >> Yes, okay. So I'm glad you brought up Outposts, because I should've mentioned this next trend. We have, if you will, the disaggregated open software-based networking which is going on. It started in the public cloud, but then you have another trend taking hold, which is the so-called edge of the network, which is going to be driven by the emergence of 5G, and the technology called CBRS, and different wireless technologies that are emerging at the so-called edge of the network, and the purpose of the edge, remember, is to get closer to the customer, get larger bandwidth, and compute, and storage closer to the customer, and there's a lot of people excited about this, including the public cloud providers, Amazon's building out their Outposts, Microsoft has an Edge stack, the Azure Edge Stack that they've built. They've acquired a couple companies for $1 billion. They acquired Metaswitch, they acquired Affirmed Networks, and so all these public cloud providers are pushing their cloud out to the edge with this infrastructure, a combination of software and hardware, and that's the opportunity that Pensando is going after with this Outposts theme, and it's very interesting, Stu, because the coopetition is very tenuous. A lot of players are trying to occupy this edge. If you think about what Amazon did with public cloud, they sucked up all of this IT compute power and services applications, and everything moved from these enterprise private clouds to the public cloud, and Amazon's market cap exploded, right, because they were basically sucking up all the money for IT spending. So now if this moves to the edge, we have this arms race of people that want to be on the edge. The way to visualize it is a mini cloud. Whether this mini cloud is at the edge of Costco, so that when Stu's shopping at Costco there's AI that follows you in the store, knows everything you're going to do, and predicts you're going to buy this cereal and "We're going to give you a deal today. "Here's a coupon." This kind of big brother-ish AI tracking thing, which is happening whether you like it or not. Or autonomous vehicles that need to connect to the edge, and have self-driving, and have very low latency services very close to them, whether that's on the edge of the highway or wherever you're going in the car. You might not have time to go back to the public cloud to get the data, so it's about pushing these compute and data services closer to the customers at the edge, and having very low latency, and having lots of resources there, compute, storage, and networking. And that's the opportunity that Pensando's going after, and of course HPE is going after that, too, and HPE, as we know, is competing with its other big mega competitors, primarily Dell, the Dell/VMware combo, and the Cisco... The Cisco machine. At the same time, the service providers are interested as well. By the way, they have infrastructure. They have central offices all over the world, so they are thinking that can be an edge. Then you have the data center people, the Equinixes of the world, who also own real estate and data centers that are closer to the customers in the metro areas, so you really have this very interesting dynamic of all these big players going after this opportunity, putting in money, resources, and trying to acquire the right technology. Pensando is right in the middle of this. They're going after this opportunity using the P4 networking language, and a specialized ASIC, and a NIC that they think is going to accelerate processing and networking of the edge. >> Yeah, you've laid out a lot of really good pieces there, Scott. As you said, the first incarnation of this, it's a NIC, and boy, I think back to years ago. It's like, well, we tried to make the NIC really simple, or do we build intelligence in it? How much? The hardware versus software discussion. What I found interesting is if you look at this team, they were really good, they made a chip. It's a switch, it's an ASIC, it became compute, and if you look at the technology available now, they're building a lot of your networking just in a really small form factor. You talked about P4. It's highly programmable, so the theme of Future Proof Your Enterprise. With anything you say, "Ah, what is it?" It's a piece of hardware. Well, it's highly programmable, so today they position it for security, telemetry, observability, but if there's other services that I need to get to edge, so you laid out really well a couple of those edge use cases and if something comes up and I need that in the future, well, just like we've been talking about for years with software-defined networking, and network function virtualization, I don't want a dedicated appliance. It's going to be in software, and a form factor like Pensando does, I can put that in lots of places. They're positioning they have a cloud business, which they sell direct, and expect to have a couple of the cloud providers using this solution here in 2020, and then the enterprise business, and obviously a huge opportunity with HPE's position in the marketplace to take that to a broad customer base. So interesting opportunity, so many different pieces. Flexibility of software, as you relayed, Scott. It's a complicated coopetition out there, so I guess what would you want to see from the market, and what is success from Pensando and HPE, if they make this generally available this month, it's available on ProLiant, it's available on GreenLake. What would you want to be hearing from customers or from the market for you to say further down the road that this has been highly successful? >> Well, I want to see that it works, and I want to see that people are buying it. So it's not that complicated. I mean I'm being a little superficial there. It's hard sometimes to look in these technologies. They're very sophisticated, and sometimes it comes down to whether they perform, they deliver on the expectation, but I think there are also questions about the edge, the pace of investment. We're obviously in a recession, and we're in a very strange environment with the pandemic, which has accelerated spending in some areas, but also throttled back spending in other areas, and 5G is one of the areas that it appears to have been throttled back a little bit, this big explosion of technology at the edge. Nobody's quite sure how it's going to play out, when it's going to play out. Also who's going to buy this stuff? Personally, I think it's going to be big enterprises. It's going to start with the big box retailers, the Walmarts, the Costcos of the world. By the way, Walmart's in a big competition with Amazon, and I think one of the news items you've seen in the pandemic is all these online digital ecommerce sales have skyrocketed, obviously, because people are staying at home more. They need that intelligence at the edge. They need that infrastructure. And one of the things that I've heard is the thing that's held it back so far is the price. They don't know how much it's going to cost. We actually ran a survey recently targeting enterprises buying 5G, and that was one of the number one concerns. How much does this infrastructure cost? So I don't actually know how much Pensando costs, but they're going to have to deliver the right ROI. If it's a very expensive proprietary NIC, who pays for that, and does it deliver the ROI that they need? So we're going to have to see that in the marketplace, and by the way, Cisco's going to have the same challenge, and Dell's going to have the same challenge. They're all racing to supply this edge stack, if you will, packaged with hardware, but it's going to come down to how is it priced, what's the ROI, and are these customers going to justify the investment is the trick. >> Absolutely, Scott. Really good points there, too. Of course the HPE announcement, big move for Pensando. Doesn't mean that they can't work with the other server vendors. They absolutely are talking to all of them, and we will see if there are alternatives to Pensando that come up, or if they end up singing with them. All right, so what we have here is I've actually got quite a few interviews with the Pensando team, starting with I talked about MPLS. We have Prem, Jane, and Sony Giandoni, who are the P and the S in MPLS as part of it. Both co-founders, Prem is the CEO. We have Silvano Guy who, anybody that followed this group, you know writes the book on it. If you watched all the way this far and want to learn even more about it, I actually have a few copies of Silvano's book, so if you reach out to me, easiest way is on Twitter. Just hit me up at @Stu. I've got a few copies of the book about Pensando, which you can go through all those details about how it works, the programmability, what changes and everything like that. We've also, of course, got Hewlett Packard Enterprise, and while we don't have any customers for this segment, Scott mentioned many of the retail ones. Goldman Sachs is kind of the marquee early customer, so did talk with them. I have Randy Pond, who's the CFO, talking about they've actually seen an increase beyond what they expected at this point of being out of stealth, only a little over six months, even more, which is important considering that it's tough times for many startups coming out in the middle of a pandemic. So watch those interviews. Please hit us up with any other questions. Scott Raynovich, thank you so much for joining us to help talk about the industry, and this Pensando partnership extending with HPE. >> Thanks, Stu. Always a pleasure to join theCUBE team. >> All right, check out thecube.net for all the upcoming, as well as if you just search "Pensando" on there, you can see everything we had on there. I'm Stu Miniman, and thank you for watching theCUBE. 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>>from the Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a cube conversation. Hi, I'm stupid, man. And welcome to a cube conversation. I'm coming to you from our Boston area studio, and we're gonna be talking about the networking giant. So, uh, joining me is the first time on the program some of the members been on and the cover launch of Pensando so vivid Jane, his CTO and co founder of Pensando Bipin thanks so much for joining us. >>Thank you. It was very nice talking to you. >>All right, so in a big theme we've been talking about for a number of years now is multi cloud. And, you know, I go back and think about you know, that the concept of cloud and even, you know, I've been around long enough You think about the and one of the challenges you look at is well, security is always a challenge. The other things network bandwidth is not infinite. The speed of light has not been solved, though you know, help us understand is you know the first I guess give our audience a little bit of your background. As I said, anybody in the networking world knows less team, though. Tell us, you know, have you been on the journey with them for all of that? Or And you know what brought you and Sandy? >>Yes. Yes. Um, I mean, I've been in the journey with the team since 2000 and six, so it's pretty long, I would say 14 years now, and it's been tremendous. Um uh, at heart, I'm an engineer who takes, you know, Brian brilliant things and taking upon challenges. And I've got multiple startups before this been in a new era, The more startups before that. And of course, you know, they were not experience more independent startups. And, you know, all through the course, I have gained appreciation for, like, you know, starting all the way from silicon to build a distributed systems and a u io all the way up to the fully consumable, you know, system. So I I totally understand the the angle I need to look at this time in a holistic manner. Having contributed to Cisco, UCS of and Nexus products on. Before joining pensando, I was, um I was contributing with my own open source container networking project, which is quite exciting to see How do you evangelize, You know, my own my own core, and that was fun. And that's where I come from, But, uh, but I I'm I'm a software engineer. To start off it started contributing to a six, then started going into the application world with containers trying to pull a container networking with, Ah, we did a server product with Cisco UCS and on and pretty much all over the stack with respect, participation. So that's my background. Um, but it's being exciting to consider what's next for me. And I was largely trying to see >>so, so definitive, actually, if I If I could jump in there, right, you know, I think back the UCS it was, You know, some of those ways I gather virtualization had been around for quite a number of years at that point. But, you know, how do you optimize it you're in. How do you transform infrastructure toe live for those environments, though? You know, UCS, You know, remember, people get back saying, you know, Cisco getting into services like Well, they are. They are because they're changing that compute model really caught that. You know, Cisco led that way. If the urge instructor, so many things you talked about that we'll get to later in the interview open for station. When I look out today, you know infrastructure's paint a lot and cloud obviously, is a huge impact, but also the application. So help us understand kind of the the waves that were writing together And, you know, what was it that you know in Santo decided to build in order to meet what you know, the customers of a require >>Um So I think, you know, going back to the UCS common that you had We started off thinking, for example, what are what were the challenges with respect is scaling out the deployment of servers and we quickly realized that manageability is number one challenge on. And of course, you know when we speak about manageability, it comes down to the underpinnings of what you're building. Are you Are you able to see the entire infrastructure together, or are you still seeing those big pieces? And that's when I think UCS was born to say that Look, we need to bring everything together that could be consumed in a holistic manner. And for that you have to have all those components there are There are somewhat independent to be consumed as a unified thing. And which is why I think it was a unified computing system. UCS. Um and then I think, you know, and Sanders a journey that takes it to probably not just that concept, but in general, the the challenges and the disruptions that we're seeing to the next level. So, I mean, just to summarize, I would say we started off looking at all the disruptions that are happening in the industry. And there are many of those I'm happy to talk about, which means we looked at, uh and then we looked at What are the consumption models that people are largely, you know, finding it very appealing these days because the days in which you're going to write a spirit to do something is still pretty old you want to be able to consume and most this after consumable way, How can we build, you know, how can you build systems that are programmable in the field? Those kind of things? The consumption model reliability software is the friendly factor there, and highly appealing to you guys and all their last one. You know, at least we also we also wanted to be really heard in the game, competitiveness wise. So those were like the the overarching set of things there that we started to think about, like, what descriptions are we going to solve, um, and how the consumption model needs to be for or ah, for the future of infrastructure. And how can we get that key, which is which is far ahead and better than anything that exists out there? So that's where we started to look at. Let's bring something which is bigger B sphere and and something. Even if we have the possibility of feeling it. Let's go ahead and they're doing their anything. >>Yeah, and absolutely. There's been so much discussion over the last decade or so about about software's eating the world and what's going on there yet you know, your your team mates. It's a lot of times it's been the chip set. There have been some huge ripples in the industry, you know, major acquisitions by some of the big, disruptive companies out there. Apple made a silicon acquisition, you know, everybody paid and that will have. You can't talk about disruption today without talking about Amazon. And, of course, when Amazon bought Annapurna Labs, you know, those of us looking at the Enterprise and the clouds base was like, Keep an eye on this. And absolutely, it's been something over the last year or so now, where we've seen Amazon roll things out and, of course, a critical component of what Amazon's doing from outposts. So with that as the stage there, you talked about wanting to be interesting leading, you know Amazon, you know, is really sick, and it's setting the bar that everyone is measured against. And when I look at the solution pensando, the kind of best comparable analogy that we've seen is, you know, look at what Nitro chip can do. This is an alternative for all of the other 1000 for customers that might not want to get them from Amazon. Is that a fair comparison? And how would you line up what founder is doing compared to what Amazon has done there? >>Um, so you know, what you've seen in the Amazon announcement really is possible. Amazon is a great benchmark to beat eso No make mistakes. We are very happy to say that, you know, we are We are doing by comfortably so But then, you know, Amazon is more than more than just the just the chips that are that they are building. I mean, what you consume is what they're building and underneath the engines are really part up by by the nicety off all these things that they're very, um, having said that, you know, And Sandra was consisting off both the you know, it's recognized us as a team which has been in traditionally building chips. But yet I think you know, the the Iot or the the previous venture from Mpls Team was somewhat of an eye opening as to how bringing things together is much more value in op, ex and and simplifying things is a huge, huge value compared to just putting performance and those things. So why this is important? That is another aspect which is important in trying to simplify things and make it consumable like software. And Sandra itself has probably, you know, I would say, Ah, good chunk, like about 60% of people in software team and not the, you know, basic harbor t This is not to say that, you know, we, you know, we are under emphasizing one versus the other. Software is a bigger beast when you start trying to build all those programs on a programmable and doing that here and start to roll out those applications on. So that's why I think the emphasis on software is there. Having said that, you know, it's the software that runs the data path pipeline. There's also a layer of software that we're building that can help manage all you know, all the product in a more cohesive manner and unified. >>Okay, that's Ah, thank you for laying that out. You mentioned you've got some background and open for definitely an area where, for a number of years, you know, Amazon has not exactly, uh, open source. Not exactly been a strength for AWS. They have put a lot of effort. They've done some president IRS over the last couple of years. >>And >>how do you see open source fitting into the space? What is I kind of the philosophy of pensando when it comes to open source. And where do you see it playing in the You know, this network piece of the multi cloud. >>Yeah, no, I think it's It's ah, it's a squared, relevant in a way that you know of the cloud native movement on how applications with very Onda normalization of AP eyes across multiple clouds. Israel, We are all seeing the benefits offered. And I think that that trend will continue and which is all driven through open source Ah, you know, community that exist in, you know, in the heart of the word. So personally for me, I think I learned a whole lot of things in the open source community. You know, the importance off evangelizing whatever you're working on, the reason to have convinced other people about contributing into what you're working on on. Frankly, I also learned how difficult it is to make revenues in an open source based part of that strategy. So I think you know that those were the things that I got away from it when I was doing my own open source project of container networking. Um, but at the same time, pensando, uh, you know, we have to make sure that we are 100% aligned with anything that's happening in open source. Never replicated, Um, anything that might be that might be happening in open source instead tried to make people use those things in the best possible way and in the most efficient way and the easiest possible way to use those. So our strategy largely is that, you know, embrace open source which exists are there from an infrastructure point of view, we are collaborating and communicating with less of the users are Hello. I think we're going to standardize most of things we're looking in before community. So our stands largely is that, you know, if we are building a programmable platform than the community is what is gonna driver and we are very much working towards a step by step, of course, trying to get through, you know, a stable state where we could we could not just empower people who are who are taking up the open source efforts which are going on. But at the same time, we can also contribute our program are programs into the open source community and defining the right abstractions into into the community. Um, because we came out of stealth pretty recently, you'll start seeing that and helping those activity as Well, >>excellent. Well, you know the launch of Pensando you had a phenomenal lineup. Not only you know, John Chambers obviously has the relationship with your theme, but you know, oh, am partners of Hewlett Packard, Enterprise and IBM, as well as the Marquis of Goldman Sachs. Things look a little bit different in the first half of 2020 and then they didn't end of 29 teams. So, you know, curious, You know that the global pandemic, the rippling financial implications, you know, what does that mean? The pensando. How has that impacted conversations that you're having with your >>Well, one thing I know at a broader level, let me cover, um, where things are heading. And in that sense, you know, I see that network and the infrastructure in general cloud infrastructure networking it's going to become. And we have realized it's this during during during recent early 20 twenties that that is going to be very important to have the have a new underpinning infrastructure that is not just working efficiently, securely, but is, you know, highly cost effective and very high performance, you know, ranging from people who are trying to connect from home to people who are trying to use videoconferencing and people who are going to be more and more use cloud based services even to order simple of the data being, you know, going to source for so network will become essential, you know, essential element for four things as we go forward. And we do see that being embraced by our customers and and things where we were trying to communicate that, you know, look, you will need performance and cost benefits are becoming more and more real Now. It's like, oh, things that we were having things in the pipeline for us. We need to work on that now. And the reason is because the things that we anticipated the demand increase, which is gonna happen over the fear of years, is happening literally in a few months. And so that is what we see. We are definitely, you know, very well poised to take advantage of their of their demand for sure. But also the fact that you know it needs to be done super efficiently. And so I think we are. You know, we are right. Well, I would say, you know, situated to be able to take advantage of start. >>Yeah, absolutely. You know, one thing you can't control as a company is you know what the global situation is when you come out of stealth and, you know, move through some of those early phases, you know, you've been part of You said a number of startups you've been part of been in give us a little bit of the inside baseball of, you know, being part of Rondo. You know, any stories on a little some of the ups and downs on the multi year journey to get where you are today? >>Definitely. I think. You know, um, minutes aren't good. They are largely an execution play. Relatively independent startup is is going to be about you know, how we cracked the overall market market fit and, ah, on execution, Of course, on deal with maybe in a competition in a different way, of course, like maybe big companies are our great partners. At the same time, you have to navigate that. So the overall the overall landscape in Spain and forces forces not is it's quite different. We can be much more border than we are independent company In trying to disrupt almost anything because we don't have any point of view to define per se. We do exactly, You know, what could be the most disruptive way, too, to potentially benefit the users on day? That's a big, you know, big change. I would say, um, we are being but paranoid as well at the same time, impractical to look at. You know how how we could navigate this situation in a very practical may. And the journey off, often independent startup is, you know, personally, for me, this is this is my fourth in different and start and best off. Off off, all independent. Once, I would stay largely because the kind of tradition that we're getting being an independent company is so huge. I'm just concerned about those things. But what We're really trying to trying to ensure that, you know, we can't get our stuff, but I want you and we started. >>Excellent. Guess what? One of the other things about being a startup is You know what you know adjustments You need to make along the way. So I'm curious. As you know, you've gone to some of your early customers. Any feedback or adjustments in some of the use cases or, you know, things that you've learned along the way that you can share. >>Um, fundamentally, at a base level, we haven't shifted from what we started off. We look at disruptions on on how consumption models are going to be changing, how speeds and feeds are gonna become important because, you know, because most law is going to be almost operating, how we how we deliver things into and containers are going to be a primary, you know, vehicle to deliver and build applications. So we recognize those disruptions, and we haven't changed, But normally from those disruptions that we wanted people after her. Uh, but at the same time, I think, you know, as we went and socialize our ideas and on architecture and designs with customers, we realized that that they are giving us lots more feedback on work all we could do and ah, and starting to become like we could take on different segments of market and not just one. So why stick ourselves to the data center power? Why not work on something on edge, blur wine or wine are real solutions for five G where latency and and performance is super crucial. Why don't take up on, you know, branch that use cases. So there are many things that are opening up. Um, and largely the you know, the shift. Or I would say the the inclination of what we should change versus not is happening with respect to where our customers are driving us. And and it is very important to make sure that you know the users of our lives Articulating all of the shift happens as opposed to, uh, you know, as opposed to anything else. We listen to them like super, super carefully, uh, and at the same time trying to make sure that we not only meet their means for you there their demands. So, um, definitely, you know, from the from the overall landscape of things, we are starting to get a lot more than what we are capture, which is good news For the same time, we're trying to also, uh, take on one part. I'm you know, >>all right, Vivienne, I can't let you off the hook as the cto without talking a little bit about that. You know, I think earlier in my career there was the old discussion and said you know, we should have started it, you know, a year or two ago. But, you know, we didn't. So we should start it today with changing pace of technology. You know, I've always said, you know, if I could I'd rather wait a year because I could take the next generation. I can take advantage of all these other things, but I can't wait, because then I'd never ship any things that I need to start now, Give us a little bit, you know, Look out in the future. How is your architecture designed to be able to take advantage of all the wonders coming with five G and everything there, Um, and anything that we should be looking at, You know, through the next kind of 12 18 months on the roadmap that you could share >>your Ah, yes. So, um, I would first of all say that we didn't build a part of, actually, what we build was a platform on which we can build multiple products. And we started we started off going there because we thought that, you know, the the platform that we're building is capable of capable of doing a lot more things than than one use case that we start off with. And so, to that point, I would say that yes. I mean, he started focusing on one product initially on the possibilities off. Trying to take it to multiple segments is is normally very much there. But we are already, you know, having those conversations to see what is the core set of use cases that we could we could get into for different segments. Besides the data center, you know, public Private Data center, you're looking at edge. We're looking by the looking at, Yeah, you mentioned this is as well as the, you know, storage and conversion infrastructure. So I would say that the food of all those things that we're starting to engage is going to start showing up in next 18 months. I could actually I think we are very well boys to take advantage of what we have. The hardware that we're shipping is going to be 100% compatible with four programs, but I don't those. So that is that is lot more possibilities are interesting. More use cases as people. The software's architecture that we have built is very extensible as well. Eh so we believe that. You know, uh, we believe that we can normally satisfy those use cases, but we're starting to you get into those things now, which will start to show up in and actually useful products of unusable for us with customer testimonials and then maybe 12 to 18 months from now. All >>right, well, thank you so much. It's great to catch up with. You really appreciate you coming on. >>Thank you to Because they're talking to you. And, you know, I appreciate your time. >>All right, I'm stew minimum. And be sure to check out the cube dot net for all the coverage. Go see the launch that we did. So in the second half of 2019. Thank you for watching you. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> Announcer: Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCube. Covering Cisco Live 2020. Brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to Cisco Live Barcelona 2020, kickin' off the new year. Of course, it's theCube's coverage of four days of Cube action. All day, I'm John Furrier, my host Stu Miniman, got two great guests, Thomas Scheibe, Vice President of Cisco and Yousuf Khan, Vice President Technical Marketing. All things data center and networking, these are the guys. Guys, good to see you again, welcome back. >> Thanks, always fun. >> Thank you very much. So, kicking off the show, I know there's some announcements coming so we're going to save the good stuff for tomorrow and Wednesday. But a lot of new things going on in data center and Cisco ecosystem. Give us the update. >> Yeah, again, thanks for having us on. So yeah, I mean there's actually a lot of good stuff on the data center side. Let me touch a couple of items. One we started two years ago, actually, was assurance. We're expanding our analytics portfolio, we're adding insights capability. So it's the assurance and network insights tool set. Very, very cool stuff. Really focused on the network operator. That was one of the messages we got, you guys need to help us here in these complex cloud environments. And so what we have is we built ACI extensions for our fabric controllers. Bolster NEXUS and ACI site. Same same. Pure software extension. And initial feedback from customers is very, very happy with what they see. So that's one piece. I don't know, Yousuf, you want to say a little bit on what we do with ecosystem partners? >> Thank you, yes we are very excited also to announce some of the new integrations that we have with our ecosystem partners. And for example AlgoSec and ACI integration. Terraform from HashiCorp and ACI integration. Continued expansion with our Splunk apps with the ecosystem. So these are some of the new things that we are working on. So that is excellent. And on top of it, Thomas, you can expand on it, but I think we are very happy that our 400 gig portfolio is shipping now, and we have customers in production on our 400 gig portfolio. So that is great news for us. >> Yeah, that's such a good point. >> You mentioned Splunk and Terraform, HashiCorp, you know, ecosystem partners. It's interesting, if you look at the performance of a lot of those companies, cloud is a tailwind for them. So, because the consumption is a service, the customers are all embracing it. But it's not just public cloud, the data center now is back. Can you guys just share your thoughts on your environment with your customers? Because the software is the key, get it as a subscription or consumable model. What are some of the trends with the consumer, I mean customers in the data center, because cloud and hybrid now is happening, and it's real growth. >> Oh, it's absolutely happening. So yeah, I mean, maybe a little bit of why this is happening, why we are having some of these integrations, you're absolutely right, cloud is happening, but really cloud means hybrid cloud or for some customers, multi-cloud hybrid because they're going to have two different cloud providers. But it's really hybrid cloud, so it's really distributed data center. And so the interesting piece happens, it's really two things that need to come together. There's this whole network automation analytics, which is, how do I get from my data center into a cloud and how do I treat this really like a utility. But that's the infrastructure. Then there's this front end, because what really drives this is the application refactoring. And this is where the application automation needs to come together with the infrastructure automation, and so that's one of the reasons why we have this integration with Terraform and the other one is like a Jenkins Pipeline tool. How do we actually take what the application was in the front end, and then seamlessly mix it into infrastructure, which is like a supernode, or infrastructure as a code thing. And that doesn't really matter whether that's in the cloud or on-prem, it has to work across. >> Automation is a huge thing. >> Yeah, and it's so nice to hear. Because Thomas, actually, when Cisco first came out with application-centric infrastructure, I kind of looked at it a little bit, I'm like, well, come on, how much are you actually tying to the application? Well, it was Cisco skating to where the puck was going. And I think the technology today and what you're talking about is closer to that application, and we have, we're here in the devNet zone, we're talking more about those pieces. Not just, oh, it's something that runs over the pipes and I've got buffers and traditional networking pieces. Would you say that's fair, that we're a little bit more application-centric today in 2020 than we might have been a couple of years ago? >> That's actually, that's a very good comment. I probably would spin it slightly different, because I'm the pragmatic guy. Yeah, do we want everything at the same time? Absolutely, right? But you do have to put some of the building blocks in place. And yes, application-centric really meant more we changed the configuration management scheme of infrastructure from thinking about network terms to using application terms. And that's really what application-centric means. It doesn't mean you change the application. It was more like, change the paradigm. How do you manage infrastructure to not just automate. Everybody does that. But actually have an abstraction layer that is meaningful to secure and apps people. And you're right, it takes time to get there. >> In the end, customers and users are looking to deploy applications faster, manage applications better. That's the whole purpose of building the data center, so that we can host the applications. So what we did is, we introduced constructs that can help you manage those applications better, deploy them faster, manage the life cycle of those applications faster, and that's why we introduced the concepts. And again, I mean, going back to your comment in terms of buffers and searches, we firmly believe that the plumbing which is the networking, has to be state of the art for us to abstract these things on top through software and exploit through software. So we have to have a best-in-class network and the searches and then we have to build the op section that we can exploit through the software means, right? >> And also, that highlights the partnerships that you mentioned. Companies like Splunk and HashiCorp, they're living in a multi-cloud environment. So, I shouldn't need to think about for some of them, oh, wait, is it hybrid cloud, public cloud A, or my data center, things like that. I'm going to have that common tooling and skill set across those environments. >> Right, because all the CIOs that we talk to, I mean, multi-cloud is a big part of their strategy. And they want to make sure that they have consistent security posture, whether it is on-prem, whether it is on multi-cloud, or like, consistent governance model across hybrid cloud. >> Yeah, that's a good point. I want to get your thoughts on that, because multi-cloud and hybrid we've both mentioned, it's interesting and what we were saying in our opening segment just earlier, multi-cloud is a business problem. It's what you have, it's a situation. Hybrid is technology, you're implementing new things for an operating model that hits core to what happens in your environment, whether it's software development, application awareness, network automation. So, they're two different things but they're kind of related, right? So you nail hybrid with public private or public on-premise, and then multi-cloud can be dealt with. This seems to be where you guys are fitting in, right? Because you can do the hybrid public, then you connect, just that's the outcome of the software. >> You're spot on, right. People use it and sometimes it means the same, and sometimes it's really not. And hybrid cloud is really around, how can I extend my data center to a public cloud infrastructure, right? And that's more of a technology discussion. What do I need to do to make that happen? Then there's the multi-cloud discussions really around how do I have consistent policy, because I want to get to a situation where I don't have to worry. And so I can deploy this, subscribers can deploy whenever I want to. And so you're right, they're two distinct things that need to happen. But I do, sorry, I do want to come back to your comment because I can take up the energy there. Users are common there, right? I mean for half these application developers that want to use tools like Terraform or Jenkins or... >> Yousuf: Ansible. >> Or Ansible or Splunk, all of them expect that they have an API. And they expect actually a network API. What they all prefer to have is something that makes sense from an application construct perspective. And so that's why we had to put something in place to make that work, right? Was it they weren't all there? That the application team could jump? Clearly not, but it's very clear if if I look, we are now, what? Six years into this? If I look back, I think it really jolted the market and I think it got everybody moving in that direction. >> Yeah and again, when we use the term application-centric infrastructure, the whole purpose is it is conducive to deploy applications faster and manage applications better. That's why, right? >> Wonder if you can dig in a little bit on the 400 gig? Tell us, you know, it's not just the next step function. We're trying to go more to the applications, you talk about these changes. So, what do people need to understand about 400 gig? You know, what's the same? What does this unlock for me? Does this tie in with all my WIFI 6 and 5G, and everything else that I'm doing? You know, where and when is this most important? >> Wow, let me take it maybe, on 400 gig. A, it is available and shipping. A little sneak preview, we're actually going to have a customer with us on Wednesday talk about what they do with 400 gig, in their European data center. It's a French customer. 400 gig is really an evolution. The way I look at it, right, I mean, we had 1 gig, 10 gig, 40, 100, 400, right? It's literally an evolution. And we're always looking back and saying, wow, do you really need that much bandwidth? Then later, you know, when you ask the question, you look like you missed it. Where is it deployed today? Service provider. No data arm, it's all in the service provider space. It's primarily what we call a large scale cloud provider. But also, the initial more tech DCs are looking at this. It's an evolution. How do we build 400 gig? The way we approach it is, this is not something special. Everything that we do today around ACI, everything we do around analytics has to work, right? Because customers are not building their own speeds. Customers are building around the operational model, and whatever they have has to work. Just because I've got my 4x speed, that has to work the same way. And so 400 gig for us, is really an extension on what we have. And you will see it. It plucks indirectly. So, can I build a 400 gig ACI fabric? Yes you can, if you want to. >> With all that horsepower, obviously the next logical question that comes to my mind is, okay, faster means more data, that means more potential fat-finger mistakes on configurating. But if you automate that away, you need AI, right? So, analytics and AI become interesting to that. How does that fit into the customer journey when they go, okay, I'm going faster. If I'm application-aware, is there an analytics angle on this? >> Ah, yes there is. >> No, you're absolutely right. I think based on the survey that we received, US corporations are spending billions of dollars due to the IT outages, right? And most of those outages are human errors, right? 43% of the IT corporations are spending 43% of their time in troubleshooting those outages. So I think it is very, very important, as the data centers are scaling, as the fabrics are getting automated, is that we grab them and provide them with the operation tools that can look smartly and proactively predict the network changes. They can assure that in turn the business intent has been translated into the network and proactively tell them what are the problems they might run into. And when they run into the problems, also intelligently explain to them what is the correlation of the events that they see on their log files and what is the root cause of the problem, right? >> Yeah, you've got a lot of data to work with there. And experience, right? That's where the predictive analytics-- >> Maybe let me expand it a little bit. So, I started off as saying we have this interesting extension and network insight which is precisely that, what Yousuf just elaborated on. It's really an engine that takes telemetry data and we're going actually one step further than everybody else that I know. Everybody talks telemetry, but they're talking about software telemetry, network state. We actually can marry that up with actual traffic data, in real time, and we can give you that correlation. And now I'm getting actually where you are kind of going to, is, I can actually tell you what's the root cause between why do I have a congestion, why do I have a problem and who is impacted, and who caused this? And I can actually predict the stuff. I can actually see this before it happens, and now help a customer. I can look at other customer experience and I do really more with machine learning. There's really an opportunity there. We're just scratching the surface, if you ask me. There's so much upside-- >> I mean, historically speaking, if you look at it, I mean, we had all the show commands in the world, which can tell you that what the (mumbles) looks like. What the CAM utilization is. But the co-relation, or the time-based co-relation was missing, in terms of when you're seeing some traffic degradation, you don't know whether it is dropped, dropped on what search, which type of traffic is getting affected. Now we have the ability to, using MLANI techniques to co-relate these events and give a meaningful picture back to the customer, so you can pinpoint that, look, my video traffic on search number five is getting affected because there is a drop in the output buffer, because my link is congested. >> And that only works if you have quality data. It's not so much volume. Volume, I mean, the faster you go, Facebook and these guys prove it, you can use machine learning. But if the data's good, then the outcomes are better on the predictive. >> You need to have the flow data. If you don't have it, there's nothing you can do. >> So, scale is something we talk a lot about in the network. When I walk through the show floor, I'm starting to see some of the small scale, because we're talking about edge computing, we talked about shrinking down some of the things we're doing. When I hear telemetry data and AI and everything, I'm like, oh, here's some big opportunities that we need to attack at the edge. So, what can you tell us about where your group is with some of the edge pieces? >> Well, interesting, actually I just came out of the service provider opening session, and I was there together with T-Systems, actually, on stage. It was a customer of ours, he's using actually an ACI fabric together with a (mumbles) environment, which is like a virtual infrastructure management on x86. And they're using that in a Taco Cloud environment. And clearly, as an interconnect for networking services and it's going to move, if you look at what they have in mind, moving into more edge services. And that's an SP example, that we have today deployed. But clearly, I think you're going to see this in enterprises. You see this pretty much in every customer base, right? Because what you do have is you have this trade off between do I want to get all my data back, centrally? Or do I want a computer on the edge? And what we have put in place was our ACI fabric. I can run this in a highly distributed and still scalable environment, managed centrally, with policy. So, not only is this actually where we think the world is going, we actually have customers doing this as we speak. >> Yeah, I think it's a tell sign too, and my final question for you guys is, and we've been saying this, I've been saying this in theCube with the team is, cloud helps everybody if hybrid kicks in, which we now have proven that hybrid cloud is a reality. That's what's going on, technically, operationally. If you believe that, then you go to the next level which is cloudification value. So I want to rattle off some keywords for you guys, and I want you to respond to 'em. So, cloudification of networking. Network as a service. WAN to cloud versus internal. SD WAN, simplification of the edge, BGP. Security in networking. Common policy. >> It's a lot of technology and gobbledegook. >> That all sounds complex, but it's got to be simplified. What's your reaction to that, cloudification? How does that kind of direction package itself out for the benefit of customers? Because there's a lot in there, right? SD WAN alone. >> There's a lot in there. >> Yeah, simplify it. >> My easy way I look at this is in the end, it's a business. It's that simple, right? And what's going on, you want to generate more revenue, more services, which is where the profit and the money comes from. And you have to scale, which means more service individually. More scale, how many customers you're going to deliver to, how fast you can roll this out. Without having your costs going up the same way. And that's really what it comes down to, at least in my book. And then you make your decisions what you're going to pick, right? How do I figure out how to develop an app faster? Maybe you're going to go to the cloud, to start cloud-first, to develop. And then you figure out, oh, I need to hit a certain scale, I'm going to start having it running and running here, My dev here, my production here, I need to connect it. But all of these things again coming down, how do we roll out services faster without my costs actually going up, but preferably staying flat or going down. >> So, business model. >> It's a business problem, that's what it is. >> Yeah, and I think from my perspective, it is about us building tools for the customer so that we can simplify the whole process for them, right? So that these multi-cloud can be treated as another site. Whether you are deploying it on-prem, whether you are deploying in AWS or Azure, these are different sites to you. And you don't have, as a user, have to worry about the nuances of AWS versus Azure versus IBM versus on-prem, you should be able to say this is my intent, deploy it in AWS, deploy it in on-prem, and be able to move the workloads accordingly. >> So, if I extract what you guys just said is, if the hybrid and cloud equation operationally solves itself, technically and with software and automation, all that stuff, the business issues, the app development, basically, the apps drive everything. >> Thomas: Absolutely. That's a good summary. >> That's the nirvana, I mean, are we going to hear some of that on the show this week? >> Absolutely. >> I think you're going to hear some of these pieces, actually. How we're tying together business intelligence with infrastructure intelligence. I think you're going to hear of some it. >> And the good trend for the data center businesses is that the edge can look like a data center too. >> The data center is everywhere the data is. That is our mantra, and so that means we're everywhere. >> Okay, thanks for coming on theCube, really appreciate your insights. Great to have you on, thanks for joining us. Appreciate it. >> Thanks again. >> Thank you very much. >> I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. theCube kicking off, day one. Cisco Live 2020 in Barcelona, Spain. Thanks for watching.

>> Announcer: Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCube. Covering Cisco Live 2020. Brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to Cisco Live Barcelona 2020, kickin' off the new year. Of course, it's theCube's coverage of four days of Cube action. All day, I'm John Furrier, my host Stu Miniman, got two great guests, Thomas Scheibe, Vice President of Cisco and Yousuf Khan, Vice President Technical Marketing. All things data center and networking, these are the guys. Guys, good to see you again, welcome back. >> Thanks, always fun. >> Thank you very much. So, kicking off the show, I know there's some announcements coming so we're going to save the good stuff for tomorrow and Wednesday. But a lot of new things going on in data center and Cisco ecosystem. Give us the update. >> Yeah, again, thanks for having us on. So yeah, I mean there's actually a lot of good stuff on the data center side. Let me touch a couple of items. One we started two years ago, actually, was assurance. We're expanding our analytics portfolio, we're adding insights capability. So it's the assurance and network insights tool set. Very, very cool stuff. Really focused on the network operator. That was one of the messages we got, you guys need to help us here in these complex cloud environments. And so what we have is we built ACI extensions for our fabric controllers. Bolster NEXUS and ACI site. Same same. Pure software extension. And initial feedback from customers is very, very happy with what they see. So that's one piece. I don't know, Yousuf, you want to say a little bit on what we do with ecosystem partners? >> Thank you, yes we are very excited also to announce some of the new integrations that we have with our ecosystem partners. And for example AlgoSec and ACI integration. Terraform from HashiCorp and ACI integration. Continued expansion with our Splunk apps with the ecosystem. So these are some of the new things that we are working on. So that is excellent. And on top of it, Thomas, you can expand on it, but I think we are very happy that our 400 gig portfolio is shipping now, and we have customers in production on our 400 gig portfolio. So that is great news for us. >> Yeah, that's such a good point. >> You mentioned Splunk and Terraform, HashiCorp, you know, ecosystem partners. It's interesting, if you look at the performance of a lot of those companies, cloud is a tailwind for them. So, because the consumption is a service, the customers are all embracing it. But it's not just public cloud, the data center now is back. Can you guys just share your thoughts on your environment with your customers? Because the software is the key, get it as a subscription or consumable model. What are some of the trends with the consumer, I mean customers in the data center, because cloud and hybrid now is happening, and it's real growth. >> Oh, it's absolutely happening. So yeah, I mean, maybe a little bit of why this is happening, why we are having some of these integrations, you're absolutely right, cloud is happening, but really cloud means hybrid cloud or for some customers, multi-cloud hybrid because they're going to have two different cloud providers. But it's really hybrid cloud, so it's really distributed data center. And so the interesting piece happens, it's really two things that need to come together. There's this whole network automation analytics, which is, how do I get from my data center into a cloud and how do I treat this really like a utility. But that's the infrastructure. Then there's this front end, because what really drives this is the application refactoring. And this is where the application automation needs to come together with the infrastructure automation, and so that's one of the reasons why we have this integration with Terraform and the other one is like a Jenkins Pipeline tool. How do we actually take what the application was in the front end, and then seamlessly mix it into infrastructure, which is like a supernode, or infrastructure as a code thing. And that doesn't really matter whether that's in the cloud or on-prem, it has to work across. >> Automation is a huge thing. >> Yeah, and it's so nice to hear. Because Thomas, actually, when Cisco first came out with application-centric infrastructure, I kind of looked at it a little bit, I'm like, well, come on, how much are you actually tying to the application? Well, it was Cisco skating to where the puck was going. And I think the technology today and what you're talking about is closer to that application, and we have, we're here in the devNet zone, we're talking more about those pieces. Not just, oh, it's something that runs over the pipes and I've got buffers and traditional networking pieces. Would you say that's fair, that we're a little bit more application-centric today in 2020 than we might have been a couple of years ago? >> That's actually, that's a very good comment. I probably would spin it slightly different, because I'm the pragmatic guy. Yeah, do we want everything at the same time? Absolutely, right? But you do have to put some of the building blocks in place. And yes, application-centric really meant more we changed the configuration management scheme of infrastructure from thinking about network terms to using application terms. And that's really what application-centric means. It doesn't mean you change the application. It was more like, change the paradigm. How do you manage infrastructure to not just automate. Everybody does that. But actually have an abstraction layer that is meaningful to secure and apps people. And you're right, it takes time to get there. >> In the end, customers and users are looking to deploy applications faster, manage applications better. That's the whole purpose of building the data center, so that we can host the applications. So what we did is, we introduced constructs that can help you manage those applications better, deploy them faster, manage the life cycle of those applications faster, and that's why we introduced the concepts. And again, I mean, going back to your comment in terms of buffers and searches, we firmly believe that the plumbing which is the networking, has to be state of the art for us to abstract these things on top through software and exploit through software. So we have to have a best-in-class network and the searches and then we have to build the op section that we can exploit through the software means, right? >> And also, that highlights the partnerships that you mentioned. Companies like Splunk and HashiCorp, they're living in a multi-cloud environment. So, I shouldn't need to think about for some of them, oh, wait, is it hybrid cloud, public cloud A, or my data center, things like that. I'm going to have that common tooling and skill set across those environments. >> Right, because all the CIOs that we talk to, I mean, multi-cloud is a big part of their strategy. And they want to make sure that they have consistent security posture, whether it is on-prem, whether it is on multi-cloud, or like, consistent governance model across hybrid cloud. >> Yeah, that's a good point. I want to get your thoughts on that, because multi-cloud and hybrid we've both mentioned, it's interesting and what we were saying in our opening segment just earlier, multi-cloud is a business problem. It's what you have, it's a situation. Hybrid is technology, you're implementing new things for an operating model that hits core to what happens in your environment, whether it's software development, application awareness, network automation. So, they're two different things but they're kind of related, right? So you nail hybrid with public private or public on-premise, and then multi-cloud can be dealt with. This seems to be where you guys are fitting in, right? Because you can do the hybrid public, then you connect, just that's the outcome of the software. >> You're spot on, right. People use it and sometimes it means the same, and sometimes it's really not. And hybrid cloud is really around, how can I extend my data center to a public cloud infrastructure, right? And that's more of a technology discussion. What do I need to do to make that happen? Then there's the multi-cloud discussions really around how do I have consistent policy, because I want to get to a situation where I don't have to worry. And so I can deploy this, subscribers can deploy whenever I want to. And so you're right, they're two distinct things that need to happen. But I do, sorry, I do want to come back to your comment because I can take up the energy there. Users are common there, right? I mean for half these application developers that want to use tools like Terraform or Jenkins or... >> Yousuf: Ansible. >> Or Ansible or Splunk, all of them expect that they have an API. And they expect actually a network API. What they all prefer to have is something that makes sense from an application construct perspective. And so that's why we had to put something in place to make that work, right? Was it they weren't all there? That the application team could jump? Clearly not, but it's very clear if if I look, we are now, what? Six years into this? If I look back, I think it really jolted the market and I think it got everybody moving in that direction. >> Yeah and again, when we use the term application-centric infrastructure, the whole purpose is it is conducive to deploy applications faster and manage applications better. That's why, right? >> Wonder if you can dig in a little bit on the 400 gig? Tell us, you know, it's not just the next step function. We're trying to go more to the applications, you talk about these changes. So, what do people need to understand about 400 gig? You know, what's the same? What does this unlock for me? Does this tie in with all my WIFI 6 and 5G, and everything else that I'm doing? You know, where and when is this most important? >> Wow, let me take it maybe, on 400 gig. A, it is available and shipping. A little sneak preview, we're actually going to have a customer with us on Wednesday talk about what they do with 400 gig, in their European data center. It's a French customer. 400 gig is really an evolution. The way I look at it, right, I mean, we had 1 gig, 10 gig, 40, 100, 400, right? It's literally an evolution. And we're always looking back and saying, wow, do you really need that much bandwidth? Then later, you know, when you ask the question, you look like you missed it. Where is it deployed today? Service provider. No data arm, it's all in the service provider space. It's primarily what we call a large scale cloud provider. But also, the initial more tech DCs are looking at this. It's an evolution. How do we build 400 gig? The way we approach it is, this is not something special. Everything that we do today around ACI, everything we do around analytics has to work, right? Because customers are not building their own speeds. Customers are building around the operational model, and whatever they have has to work. Just because I've got my 4x speed, that has to work the same way. And so 400 gig for us, is really an extension on what we have. And you will see it. It plucks indirectly. So, can I build a 400 gig ACI fabric? Yes you can, if you want to. >> With all that horsepower, obviously the next logical question that comes to my mind is, okay, faster means more data, that means more potential fat-finger mistakes on configurating. But if you automate that away, you need AI, right? So, analytics and AI become interesting to that. How does that fit into the customer journey when they go, okay, I'm going faster. If I'm application-aware, is there an analytics angle on this? >> Ah, yes there is. >> No, you're absolutely right. I think based on the survey that we received, US corporations are spending billions of dollars due to the IT outages, right? And most of those outages are human errors, right? 43% of the IT corporations are spending 43% of their time in troubleshooting those outages. So I think it is very, very important, as the data centers are scaling, as the fabrics are getting automated, is that we grab them and provide them with the operation tools that can look smartly and proactively predict the network changes. They can assure that in turn the business intent has been translated into the network and proactively tell them what are the problems they might run into. And when they run into the problems, also intelligently explain to them what is the correlation of the events that they see on their log files and what is the root cause of the problem, right? >> Yeah, you've got a lot of data to work with there. And experience, right? That's where the predictive analytics-- >> Maybe let me expand it a little bit. So, I started off as saying we have this interesting extension and network insight which is precisely that, what Yousuf just elaborated on. It's really an engine that takes telemetry data and we're going actually one step further than everybody else that I know. Everybody talks telemetry, but they're talking about software telemetry, network state. We actually can marry that up with actual traffic data, in real time, and we can give you that correlation. And now I'm getting actually where you are kind of going to, is, I can actually tell you what's the root cause between why do I have a congestion, why do I have a problem and who is impacted, and who caused this? And I can actually predict the stuff. I can actually see this before it happens, and now help a customer. I can look at other customer experience and I do really more with machine learning. There's really an opportunity there. We're just scratching the surface, if you ask me. There's so much upside-- >> I mean, historically speaking, if you look at it, I mean, we had all the show commands in the world, which can tell you that what the (mumbles) looks like. What the CAM utilization is. But the co-relation, or the time-based co-relation was missing, in terms of when you're seeing some traffic degradation, you don't know whether it is dropped, dropped on what search, which type of traffic is getting affected. Now we have the ability to, using MLANI techniques to co-relate these events and give a meaningful picture back to the customer, so you can pinpoint that, look, my video traffic on search number five is getting affected because there is a drop in the output buffer, because my link is congested. >> And that only works if you have quality data. It's not so much volume. Volume, I mean, the faster you go, Facebook and these guys prove it, you can use machine learning. But if the data's good, then the outcomes are better on the predictive. >> You need to have the flow data. If you don't have it, there's nothing you can do. >> So, scale is something we talk a lot about in the network. When I walk through the show floor, I'm starting to see some of the small scale, because we're talking about edge computing, we talked about shrinking down some of the things we're doing. When I hear telemetry data and AI and everything, I'm like, oh, here's some big opportunities that we need to attack at the edge. So, what can you tell us about where your group is with some of the edge pieces? >> Well, interesting, actually I just came out of the service provider opening session, and I was there together with T-Systems, actually, on stage. It was a customer of ours, he's using actually an ACI fabric together with a (mumbles) environment, which is like a virtual infrastructure management on x86. And they're using that in a Taco Cloud environment. And clearly, as an interconnect for networking services and it's going to move, if you look at what they have in mind, moving into more edge services. And that's an SP example, that we have today deployed. But clearly, I think you're going to see this in enterprises. You see this pretty much in every customer base, right? Because what you do have is you have this trade off between do I want to get all my data back, centrally? Or do I want a computer on the edge? And what we have put in place was our ACI fabric. I can run this in a highly distributed and still scalable environment, managed centrally, with policy. So, not only is this actually where we think the world is going, we actually have customers doing this as we speak. >> Yeah, I think it's a tell sign too, and my final question for you guys is, and we've been saying this, I've been saying this in theCube with the team is, cloud helps everybody if hybrid kicks in, which we now have proven that hybrid cloud is a reality. That's what's going on, technically, operationally. If you believe that, then you go to the next level which is cloudification value. So I want to rattle off some keywords for you guys, and I want you to respond to 'em. So, cloudification of networking. Network as a service. WAN to cloud versus internal. SD WAN, simplification of the edge, BGP. Security in networking. Common policy. >> It's a lot of technology and gobbledegook. >> That all sounds complex, but it's got to be simplified. What's your reaction to that, cloudification? How does that kind of direction package itself out for the benefit of customers? Because there's a lot in there, right? SD WAN alone. >> There's a lot in there. >> Yeah, simplify it. >> My easy way I look at this is in the end, it's a business. It's that simple, right? And what's going on, you want to generate more revenue, more services, which is where the profit and the money comes from. And you have to scale, which means more service individually. More scale, how many customers you're going to deliver to, how fast you can roll this out. Without having your costs going up the same way. And that's really what it comes down to, at least in my book. And then you make your decisions what you're going to pick, right? How do I figure out how to develop an app faster? Maybe you're going to go to the cloud, to start cloud-first, to develop. And then you figure out, oh, I need to hit a certain scale, I'm going to start having it running and running here, My dev here, my production here, I need to connect it. But all of these things again coming down, how do we roll out services faster without my costs actually going up, but preferably staying flat or going down. >> So, business model. >> It's a business problem, that's what it is. >> Yeah, and I think from my perspective, it is about us building tools for the customer so that we can simplify the whole process for them, right? So that these multi-cloud can be treated as another site. Whether you are deploying it on-prem, whether you are deploying in AWS or Azure, these are different sites to you. And you don't have, as a user, have to worry about the nuances of AWS versus Azure versus IBM versus on-prem, you should be able to say this is my intent, deploy it in AWS, deploy it in on-prem, and be able to move the workloads accordingly. >> So, if I extract what you guys just said is, if the hybrid and cloud equation operationally solves itself, technically and with software and automation, all that stuff, the business issues, the app development, basically, the apps drive everything. >> Thomas: Absolutely. That's a good summary. >> That's the nirvana, I mean, are we going to hear some of that on the show this week? >> Absolutely. >> I think you're going to hear some of these pieces, actually. How we're tying together business intelligence with infrastructure intelligence. I think you're going to hear of some it. >> And the good trend for the data center businesses is that the edge can look like a data center too. >> The data center is everywhere the data is. That is our mantra, and so that means we're everywhere. >> Okay, thanks for coming on theCube, really appreciate your insights. Great to have you on, thanks for joining us. Appreciate it. >> Thanks again. >> Thank you very much. >> I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. theCube kicking off, day one. Cisco Live 2020 in Barcelona, Spain. Thanks for watching.