>>Okay. We're back in Boston covering AWS reinvent 2022. This is our second live reinvent. We've done the other ones, uh, in between as digital. Uh, my name is Dave Lanta and you're watching the cube. Peter McKay is here. He's the CEO of sneaking ad Shani is the chief technical officer guys. Great to see you again. Awesome. Being here in Boston >>In July. It is Peter. You can't be weather's good weather. Yeah, red SOS. Aren't good. But everything else >>Is SOS are ruin in our sub, you know, >>Hey, they're still in the playoff, the hunt, you >>Know, all you gotta do is make it in. Yes. >>Right. And there's a new season. Simple >>Kinda like hockey, but you know, I'm worried they're gonna be selling at the trading >>Deadline. Yeah. I think they should be. I think it's you think so it's not looking good. Oh, >>You usually have a good angle on this stuff, but uh, well, Hey, we'll see. We'll go. I got a lot of tickets. We'll go and see the Yankees at least we'll see a winning team. Anyway, we last talked, uh, after your fundraising. Yeah. You know, big, big round at your event last night, a lot of buzz, one of the largest, I think the largest event I saw around here, a lot of good customers there. >>It's great. Great time. >>So what's new. Give us the update. You guys have made some, an acquisition since then. Integration. We're gonna talk >>About that. Yeah. It's been, uh, a lot has happened. So, uh, the business itself has done extremely well. We've been growing at 170% year, over year, a hundred percent growth in our number of customers added. We've done six acquisitions. So now we have, uh, five products that we've added to the mix. We've tripled the size of the company. Now we're 1300 people, uh, in the organization. So quite a bit in a very short period of time. >>Well, and of course my, in my intro, I, I said, reinvent, I'm getting ahead of myself. Right. >>Of course we'll >>Reinforced. We'll be at reinve >>In November. Are that's the next one at >>Reinforced. We've done a lot of reinvents by the way, you know? >>So there's a lot, lot of reinvention >>Here. So of course, well, you're reinventing security, right? Yes. So, you know, I try to, I think about when I go to these events, like, what's the takeaway, what's the epiphany. And we're really seeing the, the developer security momentum, and it's a challenge. They gotta worry about containers. They gotta worry about run time. They gotta worry about platform. Yeah. You guys are attacking that problem. Maybe describe that a >>Little bit for us. Yeah. I mean, for years it was always, um, you know, after the fact production fixing security in run time and billions and billions of dollars spent in fixing after the fact. Right. And so the realization early on with the was, you know, you gotta fix these issues earlier and earlier, we started with open source was the first product at wait. Then six, six years ago, then we added container security and we added infrastructure's code. We added code security. We added, um, most recently cloud security with the F acquisition. So one platform, one view that a developer can look at to fix all the issues through the, be from the beginning, all the way through the software development life cycle. So we call it developer security. So allowing developers to develop fast, but stay secure at the same time. >>So I like the fact that you're using some of your capital to do acquisitions. Yeah. Now a lot of M and a is, okay, we're gonna buy this company. We're gonna leave them alone. You guys chose to integrate them. Maybe describe what that process was like. Yeah. Why you chose that. Yeah. How hard it was, how long it took. Take us through that. >>Yeah. Yeah. I'll give, uh, two examples, maybe one on sneak, which was an acquisition of, of the company that was focused on, uh, code analysis, actually not for security. And we have identified the merit of what we need in terms of the first security solution, not an ability to take a security product and put it in the end of developer, but rather build something that will build into the dev motion, which means very fast, very accurate things that it can rely on source and not just on the build code and so on. And we have built that into the platform and by that our customers can gain all of their code related issues together with all of their ISE related issues together with all of the container issues in one platform that they can prioritize accordingly. >>Yeah. Okay. So, so talk more about the, the, the call, the few, the sneak cloud, right? Yeah. So the few name goes away. I presume, right. Or yes, it does. Okay. So you retire that and bring it in the brand is sneak. Yeah. Right. So talk about the cloud, what it does, what problems >>It's solving. Yeah. Awesome. And, and this goes exactly the same. As we mentioned on, on the code, we have looked at the, the, the cloud security solutions for a while now. And what we loved about the few team is that they were building their product with their first approach. Okay. So the notion is as followed as you are, you know, you're a CSO, you have your pro you have your program, you're looking, you have different types of controls and capabilities. And your team is constantly looking for threats. When we are monitoring your cloud environment, we can detect problems like, you know, your FL bucket is not exposing the right permissions and is exposed to the world or things like that. But from a security perspective, it might be okay to stop there. But if you're looking at an operation perspective, you need to know who needs to fix, how do they need to fix it? >>Where do they need to fix it? What will the be the impact if they would fix it? So what do we actually doing is we are connecting all the dots of the platform. So on one end, you know, the actual resources that are running and what's the implication in the actual deployed environment. On the other end, we get correlation back to the actual code that generates that. And then I can give that context both to the security person, the context of how it affects the application. But more importantly, the context for the developer is required to fix the problem. What's the context of the cloud. Yeah. And a lot of things are being exposed this way. And we can talk about that. Uh, >>So this is really interesting because, and look, I love AWS to do an amazing job. One of the other things I really like about 'em is it seems like they're not trying to go hard and monetize their security products. Mm-hmm, they're leaving that to the ecosystem, which I like. Yeah. Microsoft taken a little different approach, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ton a lot. But this, this, this example you're giving ad about the S3 bucket. So we heard in the keynotes yesterday about, you know, reasoning, AI reasoning, they said, we can say, is this S3 bucket exposed to the public? We can do that with math. Right. Yeah. But you're what I'm inferring is you don't stop there. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of other stuff that has to, >>And sometimes have to, not as simple, just as a configuration change, sometimes the correlation between what your application is doing affects what is the resulted experience of, you know, the remote user or in this case, the attacker, right. I mean, >>The application has access, who has access to the application, is this, this the chain. >>So propagates, you have to, you have to have a, a solution that looks both at have very good understanding of the application context. A very good understanding of what we refer to as the application graph, like understanding how it works, being able to analyze that and apply the same policies, both at development time, as well as run time. >>So there's, there's human to app. There's also a machine to machine. Can you guys help with that problem as well? Or is that sort of a futures thing or >>Could you, I'm not sure. I understand what >>Referring, so machines talking to machines, right. I mean, there's data flowing. Yep. You know, between those machines, right. It's not just the humans interacting with the application. Is that a trend that you see and is that something that you guys can solve? >>So at, at the end of the day, there is a lot of automation that happens both for, by humans for good reasons, as well as by humans for bads. Right. <laugh> and, and the notion is that we are really trying to focus on what matters to the developer as they're trying to improve their business around that. So both improves making sure they know, you know, quality problems or things of this kind. But as part of that, more importantly, when we're looking at security as a quality problem, making sure that we have a flow in the development life cycle that streamline what the developer is expecting to do as they're building the solution. And if every single point, whether it's the ID, whether it's the change management, whether it's the actual build, whether it's the deployed instance on the cloud, making sure that we identify with that and connect that back to the code. >>Okay. So if there's machine automation coming in, that shouldn't be there, you can sort of identify that and then notify remediate or whatever action should be >>Taken. Yeah. Identify, identify remediate. Yep. >>Yeah. We, we really focus on making sure that we help developers build better products. So our core focus is identify areas where the product is not built way in a good way, and then suggest the corrective action that is required to make that happen. >>And I think part of this is the, you know, just, uh, the speed of the software development today. I mean, you look at developers are constantly and not just look at sneak you're, you're trying to get so much more productivity outta the developers that you have. Every company is trying to get more productivity out of developers, incredible innovation, incredible pace, get those is a competitive advantage. And so what we're trying to do is we make it easier for developers to go fast innovate, but also do it securely and embed it without slowing them down, develop fast and secure. >>So again, I love, I love AWS love what they're doing. We heard, uh, yesterday from, from CJ, you know, a lot of talk about, you know, threat detection and, you know, some talk about DevOps, et cetera. But yeah, I, I, I didn't hear a lot about how to reduce the complexity for the CSO. And the reason I bring this up is it feels like the cloud is now the first level of defense and the CISO is, is becoming the next level, which is on the developer. So the developer is becoming responsible for security at a whole shift left, maybe shield. Right. But, but shift left is becoming critical. Seems like your role and maybe others in the ecosystem is to address my concern about simplifying the life of the CISO. Is that a reasonable way to think about it? I >>Think it's changing the role of the CISO. How so? You know, really it's, I, I think it's before it, in this, in the security organization and D you should chime in here is, you know, it used to be, I did, I owned all application security, I owned the whole thing and they couldn't keep up. Like, I think it's just every security organization is totally overwhelmed. And so they have to share the responsibility. They have to get that fix the issues earlier and earlier, because it's waiting too long. It's after the fact. And then you gotta throw this over the fence and developers have to fix it. So they've gotta find a new way because they're the bottleneck they're slowing down the company from, in innovating and bringing these applications to market. So we are the kind of this bridge between the security teams that wanna make sure the, that we're staying secure and the development organizations and engineering and CEOs go fast. We need you guys to go faster and faster. So we, we tend to be the bridge between the two of them. >>One of the things I really love happening these days is that we change the culture of the organization from a culture where the CSO is trying to, you know, push and enforce and dictate the policy, which, which they should, but they really wanna see the development team speak up like that. The whole motion of DevOps is that we are empowering them to make the decisions that are right for the business, right? And then there is a gap because on one hand, this is always like, you need to do this, you need to do this. You need to do that. And the dev teams don't understand how that impacts their business. Good enough. And they don't have the tools and, you know, the ability to add a source problem. So with the solution liken, we really empower the developers to bake security as part of their cycle, which is what was done in many other fields, quality, other things, everything, it, everything moves into development already, right? So we're doing that. And the entire discussion now changes into an enablement discussion. >>So interesting. Cause you saw, this is the role of the CSOs changing. How so? I see that in a way like frees, sneak the CSO with the cloud is becoming a compliance officer. Like you do this, you do this, you do this, you do this, you third >>One would take a responsibility >>Trying. Yeah. Right, right. And so you're flipping that equation saying, Hey, we're gonna actually make this an accelerant to your business. >>So, so set the policy, determine compliance, but make sure that the teams, the developers are building applications in compliance with your policy. Right. So make sure and, and don't allow them to do something. If they're doing, if they're developing an application with a number of vulnerabilities, you can stop that from happening so you can oversee it, but you don't have to be the one who owns it all the way through from beginning to, >>Or, or get it before it's deployed. So you don't have to go back after the fact and, and remediate it with, you know, but, >>But think about deploy, they're deploying apps today. I mean, they're updating by the hour, right? Where, you know, six years ago, five years ago, two years ago was every six to nine months. Right? So the pace of this innovation from developers is so fast that the old way of doing security can't keep up. Like they're built for six month release cycles. This is six hour release cycles. And so we had to, it has to change security. Can't stay the way it is. So what we've been doing for se seven years for application security is exactly what we're doing for cloud security is moving all that earlier. All these products that we've been building over the years is really taking these afterthought security components and bringing 'em all earlier, you know, bringing everything like cloud security is done after the fact. Now we can take those issues and bring 'em right to the developers who created that and can fix the issues. So it's code to cloud back to code in a very automated fashion. So doesn't slow developers down. >>Okay. So what's the experience. We all know there's, everybody has more than one cloud. What's the experience across clouds. Can you create a consistent, continuous experience, cloud agnostic, >>Agnostic, cloud agnostic, uh, development environment, agnostic, you know, language agnostic. So that's kind of the beauty oft where you have maybe other certain tools for certain clouds, uh, or certain languages or certain development environments, but you have to learn different tools, you know, and, and they all roll up to security in a different way. And so what we have done is consolidated all that spend for open source security, container security infrastructure, now, cloud security, all that spend and all that fragmentation all under one platform. So it's one company that brings all those pieces >>Together. So it's a single continuous experience. Yeah. The developer experience you're saying is identical. Yes. >>Actually one product >>It's entitlement that we're getting. Yes. So you're hiding the underlying complexities of the respective clouds and those primitives developer doesn't have to worry about them. No, I call that a super cloud super >>Cloud. >>Okay. But no, but essentially that's what you're, you're building, building on the, on this ed Walsh would say on the shoulders of giants. Yeah, exactly. You know, you don't have to worry about the hyperscale infrastructure. Yep. Right. That you're building a layer of value on top of that. Yes. Is, is that essentially a PAs layer or is it, is it, can I think of it that way or is it not? Hmm. Is it platform? I >>Mean, yeah. I, I, I would say that at the end of the day, the, the way developers want to use a security tool is the same. Right. So we expose our functionality to them in those ways, if you're using, you know, uh, uh, one GI repository or another, if you're using one cloud or we, we are agnostic to data, don't, it's not, it doesn't really affect us in that manner. Um, I want to add another thing about the, the experience and associated with the consolidation that Peter referred to, uh, earlier, when you have a motion that automatically assess, you know, uh, problems that the developer is putting as part of the change management, as example, you do creating pool request. Now adding more capabilities into that motion is easy. So from enablement of the team, you can add another functionality, add cloud at ISC, add code and so on like that, because you already, you already made the decisions on how you are looking at that. And now you're integrated at, into your developer workflows, >>Right? So it's, it's already, it's already integrated for open source, adding container and ISD is real easy. It's all, you've already done all the integrations. And so for us going to five products and eventually 6, 7, 8, all, all based on the integrations that you already have in the same workflows that developers have become a use accustomed >>To. And that's what we, a lot of work from the company perspective. Right. >>I can ask you about another sort of trend we're seeing where you see Goldman Sachs last reinvent announced a cloud product, essentially bringing their data, their tools, their software. They're gonna run it on AWS at the snowflake summit, uh, capital one announced the service running on snowflake, Oracle by Cerner, right? Yeah. You know, they're gonna be, do something on OCI. Of course, make 'em do that. But it's, it's a spin on Andreessens every company's a software company. It's like every company's now becoming digital, a software company building their own SAS, essentially building their own clouds, or maybe, maybe something they'll be super clouds. Are you seeing industry come to sneak and say, Hey, help us build products that we can monetize >>There companies. So, first off, I think kind of the first iteration is, you know, all these industries of becoming software driven, like you said, and more software is more software risk. And so that kind of led us down this journey of now financial services, you know, tech, you know, media and entertainment, financial services, healthcare. Now it's this long tail of, of low tech. Yeah. Within those companies, they are offering services to the other parts of the organization. We have >>So far, mostly >>Internal, mostly internal, other than the global SI. And some of the companies who do that for a living, you know, they build the apps for companies and they are offering a sneak service. So before I give you these, I update these applications. I'm gonna make sure I'm running. I'm, I'm, I'm signifying those applications to make sure that they're secure before you get them. And so that now a company like a capital one coming to us saying, I wanna offer this to others. I think that's a, that's a leap because you know, companies are taking on security of someone else's and I think that's a, that's not there yet. It may be, >>Do you think it'll happen? >>We do have the, uh, uh, threat Intel that we, we have a very, a very strong security group that constantly monitors and analyzing the threat. And we create this vulnerability database. So in open sources, an example, we're the fact of standard, uh, in the field. So many of our partners are utilizing the threat Intel feed of snake as part of their offering. Okay. If you go to dock as an example, you can scan with, with snake intelligence immediately out of the gate over there, right? Yeah. >>And tenable, rapid seven trend micro. They all use the vulnerability database as well. Okay. So a lot of financial institutions use it because they had, they'd have seven, 10 people doing re security research on their own. And now they can say, well, I don't have to have those seven. I've got the industry standard for vulnerability database from Steve. >>And they don't have to throw out their existing tool sets where they have skills. >>Yes, exactly. >>Peter bring us homes, give us the bumper sticker, summarize, you know, reinforce and kind what we can expect going forward. >>Yeah, no, I mean, we're gonna continue the pace. We don't see anything slowing, slowing us down in terms of, um, just the number of customers that are, that are shifting left. Everybody's talking about, Hey, I need to embed this earlier and earlier. And I think what they're finding is this, this need to rein reinnovate like get innovation back into their business. And a lot of it had to slow down because, well, you know, you, we can't let developers develop an app without it going through security. And that takes time. It slows you down and allows you not to like slow the pace of innovation. And so for us, it's it help developers go fast, incredibly, you know, quickly, aggressively, creatively, but do it in a secure way. And I think that balance, you know, making sure that they're doing what they're doing, they're increasing developer productivity, increasing the amount of innovation that developers are trying to do, but you gotta do it securely. And that's where we compliment really what every CEO is pushing companies. I need more productivity. I need more aggressive creativity, innovation, but you better be secure at the same time. And that's what we bring together for our customers. >>And you better do that without slowing us down. That's >>Don't trade off, slow >>Us down. Always had to make. Yes, guys. Thanks so much for coming to the cube. Thanks, David. Always great to see you guys see ID. Appreciate it. All right. Keep it right there. This is the Cube's coverage of reinforced 2022 from Boston. We'll be right back right after the short break.

>>Okay. We're back with Ari Basu, who is Cisco's resident philosopher, who also holds a master's in computer science. We're gonna have to unpack that a little bit and Najati chair he who's technical lead at Cisco. Welcome guys. Thanks for coming on the cube. >>Happy to be here. Thanks a >>Lot. All right, let's get into it. We want you to explain how Cisco validated the SBRI technology and the proof points that, that you have, that it actually works as advertised. So first Outre tell first, tell us about Cisco tech. What does Cisco tech do? >>So T is otherwise it's an acronym for technical assistance center is Cisco's support arm, the support organization, and, you know, the risk of sounding like I'm spotting a corporate line. The, the easiest way to summarize what tag does is provide world class support to Cisco customers. What that means is we have about 8,000 engineers worldwide, and any of our Cisco customers can either go on our web portal or call us to open a support request. And we get about 2.2 million of these support requests a year. And what these support requests are, are essentially the customer will describe something that they need done some networking goal that they have, that they wanna accomplish. And then it's tax job to make sure that that goal does get accomplished. Now, it could be something like they're having trouble with an existing network solution, and it's not working as expected, or it could be that they're integrating with a new solution. >>They're, you know, upgrading devices, maybe there's a hardware failure, anything really to do with networking support and, you know, the customer's network goals. If they open up a case for request for help, then tax job is to, is to respond and make sure the customer's, you know, questions and requirements are met about 44% of these support requests are usually trivial and, you know, can be solved within a call or within a day. But the rest of tax cases really involve getting into the network device, looking at logs. It's a very technical role. It's a very technical job. You're look you're, you need to be conversing with network solutions, their designs protocols, et cetera. >>Wow. So 56% non-trivial. And so I would imagine you spend a lot of time digging through through logs. Is that, is that true? Can you quantify that like, you know, every month, how much time you spend digging through logs and is that a pain point? >>Yeah, it's interesting. You asked that because when we started this on this journey to augment our support engineers workflow with zebra solution, one of the things that we did was we went out and asked our engineers what their experience was like doing log analysis. And the anecdotal evidence was that on average, an engineer will spend three out of their eight hours reviewing logs, either online or offline. So what that means is either with the customer live on a WebEx, they're going to be going over logs, network, state information, et cetera, or they're gonna do it offline, where the customer sends them the logs, it's attached to a, you know, a service request and they review it and try to figure out what's going on and provide the customer with information. So it's a very large chunk of our day. You know, I said 8,000 plus engineers, and so three hours a day, that's 24,000 man hours a day spent on long analysis. >>Now the struggle with logs or analyzing logs is there by out of necessity. Logs are very contr contr. They try to pack a lot of information in a very little space. And this is for performance reasons, storage reasons, et cetera, BEC, but the side effect of that is they're very esoteric. So they're hard to read if you're not conversant, if you're not the developer who wrote these logs or you or you, aren't doing code deep dives. And you're looking at where this logs getting printed and things like that, it may not be immediately obvious or even after a low while it may not be obvious what that log line means or how it correlates to whatever problem you're troubleshooting. So it requires tenure. It requires, you know, like I was saying before, it requires a lot of knowledge about the protocol what's expected because when you're doing log analysis, what you're really looking for is a needle in a haystack. You're looking for that one anomalous event, that single thing that tells you this shouldn't have happened. And this was a problem right now doing that kind of anomaly detection requires you to know what is normal. It requires, you know, what the baseline is. And that requires a very in-depth understanding of, you know, the state changes for that network solution or product. So it requires time, tenure and expertise to do well. And it takes a lot of time even when you have that kind of expertise. >>Wow. So thank you, archery. And Najati, that's, that's about, that's almost two days a week for, for a technical resource. That's that's not inexpensive. So what was Cisco looking for to sort of help with this and, and how'd you stumble upon zebra? >>Yeah, so, I mean, we have our internal automation system, which has been running more than a decade now. And what happens is when a customer attaches a log bundle or diagnostic bundle into the service request, we take that from the Sr we analyze it and we represent some kind of information. You know, it can be alert or some tables, some graph to the engineer, so they can, you know, troubleshoot this particular issue. This is an incredible system, but it comes with its own challenges around maintenance to keep it up to date and relevant with Cisco's new products or new version of the product, new defects, new issues, and all kind of things. And when I, what I mean with those challenges are, let's say Cisco comes up with a product today. We need to come together with those engineers. We need to figure out how this bundle works, how it's structured out. >>We need to select individual logs, which are relevant and then start modeling these logs and get some values out of those logs, using pars or some rag access to come to a level that we can consume the logs. And then people start writing rules on top of that abstraction. So people can say in this log, I'm seeing this value together with this other value in another log, maybe I'm hitting this particular defect. So that's how it works. And if you look at it, the abstraction, it can fail the next time. And the next release when the development or the engineer decides to change that log line, which you write that rag X, or we can come up with a new version, which we completely change the services or processes, then whatever you have wrote needs to be re written for that new service. And we see that a lot with products, like for instance, WebEx, where you have a very short release cycle that things can change maybe the next week with a new release. >>So whatever you are writing, especially for that abstraction and for those rules are maybe not relevant with that new release. With that being sake, we have a incredible rule creation process and governance process around it, which starts with maybe a defect. And then it takes it to a level where we have an automation in place. But if you look at it, this really ties to human bandwidth. And our engineers are really busy working on, you know, customer facing, working on issues daily and sometimes creating these rules or these pars are not their biggest priorities, so they can be delayed a bit. So we have this delay between a new issue being identified to a level where we have the automation to detect it next time that some customer faces it. So with all these questions and with all challenges in mind, we start looking into ways of actually how we can automate these automations. >>So these things that we are doing manually, how we can move it a bit further and automate. And we had actually a couple of things in mind that we were looking for and this being one of them being, this has to be product agnostic. Like if Cisco comes up with a product tomorrow, I should be able to take it logs without writing, you know, complex regs, pars, whatever, and deploy it into this system. So it can embrace our logs and make sense of it. And we wanted this platform to be unsupervised. So none of the engineers need to create rules, you know, label logs. This is bad. This is good. Or train the system like which requires a lot of computational power. And the other most important thing for us was we wanted this to be not noisy at all, because what happens with noises when your level of false PE positives really high your engineers start ignoring the good things between that noise. >>So they start the next time, you know, thinking that this thing will not be relevant. So we want something with a lot or less noise. And ultimately we wanted this new platform or new framework to be easily adaptable to our existing workflows. So this is where we started. We start looking into the, you know, first of all, internally, if we can build this thing and also start researching it, and we came up to Zeum actually Larry, one of the co co-founders of Zeum. We came upon his presentation where he clearly explained why this is different, how this works, and it immediately clicked in. And we said, okay, this is exactly what we were looking for. We dived deeper. We checked the block posts where SBRI guys really explained everything very clearly there, they are really open about it. And most importantly, there is a button in their system. >>So what happens usually with AI ML vendors is they have this button where you fill in your details and sales guys call you back. And, you know, we explain the system here. They were like, this is our trial system. We believe in the system, you can just sign up and try it yourself. And that's what we did. We took our, one of our Cisco live DNA center, wireless platforms. We start streaming logs out of it. And then we synthetically, you know, introduce errors, like we broke things. And then we realized that zebra was really catching the errors perfectly. And on top of that, it was really quiet unless you are really breaking something. And the other thing we realized was during that first trial is zebra was actually bringing a lot of context on top of the logs. During those failures, we work with couple of technical leaders and they said, okay, if this failure happens, I I'm expecting this individual log to be there. And we found out with zebra, apart from that individual log, there were a lot of other things which gives a bit more context around the root columns, which was great. And that's where we wanted to take it to the next level. Yeah. >>Okay. So, you know, a couple things to unpack there. I mean, you have the dart board behind you, which is kind of interesting, cuz a lot of times it's like throwing darts at the board to try to figure this stuff out. But to your other point, Cisco actually has some pretty rich tools with AppD and doing observability and you've made acquisitions like thousand eyes. And like you said, I'm, I'm presuming you gotta eat your own dog food or drink your own champagne. And so you've gotta be tools agnostic. And when I first heard about Z zebra, I was like, wait a minute. Really? I was kind of skeptical. I've heard this before. You're telling me all I need is plain text and, and a timestamp. And you got my problem solved. So, and I, I understand that you guys said, okay, let's run a POC. Let's see if we can cut that from, let's say two days a week down to one day, a week. In other words, 50%, let's see if we can automate 50% of the root cause analysis. And, and so you funded a POC. How, how did you test it? You, you put, you know, synthetic, you know, errors and problems in there, but how did you test that? It actually works Najati >>Yeah. So we, we wanted to take it to the next level, which is meaning that we wanted to back test is with existing SARS. And we decided, you know, we, we chose four different products from four different verticals, data center, security, collaboration, and enterprise networking. And we find out SARS where the engineer put some kind of log in the resolution summary. So they closed the case. And in the summary of the Sr, they put, I identified these log lines and they led me to the roots and we, we ingested those log bundles. And we, we tried to see if Zeum can surface that exact same log line in their analysis. So we initially did it with archery ourself and after 50 tests or so we were really happy with the results. I mean, almost most of them, we saw the log line that we were looking for, but that was not enough. >>And we brought it of course, to our management and they said, okay, let's, let's try this with real users because the log being there is one thing, but the engineer reaching to that log is another take. So we wanted to make sure that when we put it in front of our users, our engineers, they can actually come to that log themselves because, you know, we, we know this platform so we can, you know, make searches and find whatever we are looking for, but we wanted to do that. So we extended our pilots to some selected engineers and they tested with their own SRSS. Also do some back testing for some SARS, which are closed in the past or recently. And with, with a sample set of, I guess, close to 200 SARS, we find out like majority of the time, almost 95% of the time the engineer could find the log they were looking for in zebra analysis. >>Yeah. Okay. So you were looking for 50%, you got to 95%. And my understanding is you actually did it with four pretty well known Cisco products, WebEx client DNA center, identity services, engine ISE, and then, then UCS. Yes. Unified pursuit. So you use actual real data and, and that was kind of your proof proof point, but Ari. So that's sounds pretty impressive. And, and you've have you put this into production now and what have you found? >>Well, yes, we're, we've launched this with the four products that you mentioned. We're providing our tech engineers with the ability, whenever a, whenever a support bundle for that product gets attached to the support request. We are processing it, using sense and then providing that sense analysis to the tech engineer for their review. >>So are you seeing the results in production? I mean, are you actually able to, to, to reclaim that time that people are spending? I mean, it was literally almost two days a week down to, you know, a part of a day, is that what you're seeing in production and what are you able to do with that extra time and people getting their weekends back? Are you putting 'em on more strategic tasks? How are you handling that? >>Yeah. So, so what we're seeing is, and I can tell you from my own personal experience using this tool, that troubleshooting any one of the cases, I don't take more than 15 to 20 minutes to go through the zebra report. And I know within that time either what the root causes or I know that zebra doesn't have the information that I need to solve this particular case. So we've definitely seen, well, it's been very hard to measure exactly how much time we've saved per engineer, right? What we, again, anecdotally, what we've heard from our users is that out of those three hours that they were spending per day, we're definitely able to reclaim at least one of those hours and, and what, even more importantly, you know, what the kind of feedback that we've gotten in terms of, I think one statement that really summarizes how Zebra's impacted our workflow was from one of our users. >>And they said, well, you know, until you provide us with this tool, log analysis was a very black and white affair, but now it's become really colorful. And I mean, if you think about it, log analysis is indeed black and white. You're looking at it on a terminal screen where the background is black and the text is white, or you're looking at it as a text where the background is white and the text is black, but what's what they're really trying to say. Is there hardly any visual cues that help you navigate these logs, which are so esoteric, so dense, et cetera. But what XRM does is it provides a lot of color and context to the whole process. So now you're able to quickly get to, you know, using their word cloud, using their interactive histogram, using the summaries of every incident. You're very quickly able to summarize what might be happening and what you need to look into. >>Like, what are the important aspects of this particular log bundle that might be relevant to you? So we've definitely seen that a really great use case that kind of encapsulates all of this was very early on in our experiment. There was, there was this support request that had been escalated to the business unit or the development team. And the tech engineer had really, they, they had an intuition about what was going wrong because of their experience because of, you know, the symptoms that they'd seen. They kind of had an idea, but they weren't able to convince the development team because they weren't able to find any evidence to back up what they thought was happening. And we, it was entirely happenstance that I happened to pick up that case and did an analysis using Seebri. And then I sat down with the attack engineer and we were very quickly within 15 minutes, we were able to get down to the exact sequence of events that highlighted what the customer thought was happening, evidence of what the, so not the customer, what the attack engineer thought was the, was a root cause. It was a rude pause. And then we were able to share that evidence with our business unit and, you know, redirect their resources so that we could change down what the problem was. And that really has been, that that really shows you how that color and context helps in log analysis. >>Interesting. You know, we do a fair amount of work in the cube in the RPA space, the robotic process automation and the narrative in the press when our RPA first started taking off was, oh, it's, you know, machines replacing humans, or we're gonna lose jobs. And, and what actually happened was people were just eliminating mundane tasks and, and the, the employee's actually very happy about it. But my question to you is, was there ever a reticence amongst your team? Like, oh, wow, I'm gonna, I'm gonna lose my job if the machine's gonna replace me, or have you found that people were excited about this and what what's been the reaction amongst the team? >>Well, I think, you know, every automation and AI project has that immediate gut reaction of you're automating away our jobs and so forth. And there is initially there's a little bit of reticence, but I mean, it's like you said, once you start using the tool, you realize that it's not your job, that's getting automated away. It's just that your job's becoming a little easier to do, and it's faster and more efficient. And you're able to get more done in less time. That's really what we're trying to accomplish here at the end of the day, rim will identify these incidents. They'll do the correlation, et cetera. But if you don't understand what you're reading, then that information's useless to you. So you need the human, you need the network expert to actually look at these incidents, but what we are able to skin away or get rid of is all of the fat that's involved in our, you know, in our process, like without having to download the bundle, which, you know, when it's many gigabytes in size, and now we're working from home with the pandemic and everything, you're, you know, pulling massive amounts of logs from the corporate network onto your local device that takes time and then opening it up, loading it in a text editor that takes time. >>All of these things are we're trying to get rid of. And instead we're trying to make it easier and quicker for you to find what you're looking for. So it's like you said, you take away the mundane, you take away the, the difficulties and the slog, but you don't really take away the work, the work still needs to be done. >>Yeah. Great guys. Thanks so much. Appreciate you sharing your story. It's quite, quite fascinating. Really. Thank you for coming on. >>Thanks for having us. >>You're very welcome. Okay. In a moment, I'll be back to wrap up with some final thoughts. This is Dave Valante and you're watching the, >>So today we talked about the need, not only to gain end to end visibility, but why there's a need to automate the identification of root cause problems and doing so with modern technology and machine intelligence can dramatically speed up the process and identify the vast majority of issues right out of the box. If you will. And this technology, it can work with log bundles in batches, or with real time data, as long as there's plain text and a timestamp, it seems Zebra's technology will get you the outcome of automating root cause analysis with very high degrees of accuracy. Zebra is available on Preem or in the cloud. Now this is important for some companies on Preem because there's really some sensitive data inside logs that for compliance and governance reasons, companies have to keep inside their four walls. Now SBRI has a free trial. Of course they better, right? So check it out@zebra.com. You can book a live demo and sign up for a free trial. Thanks for watching this special presentation on the cube, the leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage on Dave Valante and.

(upbeat music) >> Okay, we're back with Atri Basu who is Cisco's resident philosopher who also holds a master's in computer science. We're going to have to unpack that a little bit. And Necati Cehreli, who's technical lead at Cisco. Welcome, guys. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Happy to be here. >> Thanks a lot. >> All right, let's get into it. We want you to explain how Cisco validated the Zebrium technology and the proof points that you have that it actually works as advertised. So first Atri, first tell us about Cisco TAC. What does Cisco TAC do? >> So TAC is otherwise it's an acronym for Technical Assistance Center, is Cisco's support arm, the support organization. And the risk of sounding like I'm spouting a corporate line. The easiest way to summarize what TAC does is provide world class support to Cisco customers. What that means is we have about 8,000 engineers worldwide and any of our Cisco customers can either go on our web portal or call us to open a support request. And we get about 2.2 million of these support requests a year. And what these support requests are, are essentially the customer will describe something that they need done some networking goal that they have that they want to accomplish. And then it's TACs job to make sure that that goal does get accomplished. Now, it could be something like they're having trouble with an existing network solution and it's not working as expected or it could be that they're integrating with a new solution. They're, you know, upgrading devices maybe there's a hardware failure anything really to do with networking support and, you know the customer's network goals. If they open up a case for testing for help then TACs job is to respond and make sure the customer's, you know questions and requirements are met. About 44% of these support requests are usually trivial and, you know can be solved within a call or within a day. But the rest of TAC cases really involve getting into the network device, looking at logs. It's a very technical role. It's a very technical job. You need to be conversed with network solutions, their designs, protocols, et cetera. >> Wow. So 56% non-trivial. And so I would imagine you spend a lot of time digging through logs. Is that true? Can you quantify that like, you know, every month how much time you spend digging through logs and is that a pain point? >> Yeah, it's interesting you asked that because when we started on this journey to augment our support engineers workflow with Zebrium solution, one of the things that we did was we went out and asked our engineers what their experience was like doing log analysis. And the anecdotal evidence was that on average an engineer will spend three out of their eight hours reviewing logs either online or offline. So what that means is either with the customer live on a WebEx, they're going to be going over logs, network, state information, et cetera or they're going to do it offline where the customer sends them the logs it's attached to a, you know, a service request and they review it and try to figure out what's going on and provide the customer with information. So it's a very large chunk of our day. You know, I said 8,000 plus engineers and so three hours a day that's 24,000 man hours a day spent on log analysis. Now the struggle with logs or analyzing logs is there by out of necessity, logs are very contrite. They try to pack a lot of information in a very little space. And this is for performance reasons, storage reasons, et cetera, but the side effect of that is they're very esoteric. So they're hard to read if you're not conversant if you're not the developer who wrote these logs or you aren't doing code deep dives. And you're looking at where this logs getting printed and things like that, it may not be immediately obvious or even after a little while it may not be obvious what that log line means or how it correlates to whatever problem you're troubleshooting. So it requires tenure. It requires, you know, like I was saying before it requires a lot of knowledge about the protocol what's expected because when you're doing log analysis what you're really looking for is a needle in a haystack. You're looking for that one anomalous event, that single thing that tells you this shouldn't have happened, and this was a problem right. Now doing that kind of anomaly detection requires you to know what is normal. It requires, you know, what the baseline is. And that requires a very in depth understanding of, you know the state changes for that network solution or product. So it requires time to near and expertise to do well. And it takes a lot of time even when you have that kind of expertise. >> Wow. So thank you, Atri. And Necati, that's almost two days a week for a technical resource. That's not inexpensive. So what was Cisco looking for to sort of help with this and how'd you stumble upon Zebrium? >> Yeah, so, we have our internal automation system which has been running more than a decade now. And what happens is when a customer attach log bundle or diagnostic bundle into the service request we take that from the Sr we analyze it and we represent some kind of information. You know, it can be alerts or some tables, some graph, to the engineer, so they can, you know troubleshoot this particular issue. This is an incredible system, but it comes with its own challenges around maintenance to keep it up to date and relevant with Cisco's new products or a new version of a product, new defects, new issues and all kind of things. And when I mean with those challenges are let's say Cisco comes up with a product today. We need to come together with those engineers. We need to figure out how this bundle works, how it's structured out. We need to select individual logs, which are relevant and then start modeling these logs and get some values out of those logs, using PaaS or some rag access to come to a level that we can consume the logs. And then people start writing rules on top of that abstraction. So people can say in this log I'm seeing this value together with this other value in another log, maybe I'm hitting this particular defect. So that's how it works. And if you look at it, the abstraction it can fail the next time. And the next release when the development or engineer decides to change that log line which you write that rag X or we can come up with a new version which we completely change the services or processes then whatever you have wrote needs to be re-written for the new service. And we see that a lot with products, like for instance, WebEx where you have a very short release cycle that things can change maybe the next week with a new release. So whatever you are writing, especially for that abstraction and for those rules are maybe not relevant with that new release. With that being said we have a incredible rule creation process and governance process around it which starts with maybe a defect. And then it takes it to a level where we have an automation in place. But if you look at it, this really ties to human bandwidth. And our engineers are really busy working on you know, customer facing, working on issues daily and sometimes creating news rules or these PaaS are not their biggest priorities so they can be delayed a bit. So we have this delay between a new issue being identified to a level where we have the automation to detect it next time that some customer faces it. So with all these questions and with all challenges in mind we start looking into ways of actually how we can automate these automation. So these things that we are doing manually how we can move it a bit further and automate. And we had actually a couple of things in mind that we were looking for and this being one of them being this has to be product agnostic. Like if Cisco comes up with a product tomorrow I should be able to take it logs without writing, you know, complex regs, PaaS, whatever and deploy it into this system. So it can embrace our logs and make sense of it. And we wanted this platform to be unsupervised. So none of the engineers need to create rules, you know, label logs, this is bad, this is good. Or train the system like which requires a lot of computational power. And the other most important thing for us was we wanted this to be not noisy at all because what happens with noises when your level of false positives really high your engineers start ignoring the good things between that noise. So they start the next time, you know thinking that this thing will not be relevant. So we want something with a lot more less noise. And ultimately we wanted this new platform or new framework to be easily adaptable to our existing workflow. So this is where we started. We start looking into the, you know first of all, internally, if we can build this thing and also start researching it, and we came up to Zebrium actually Larry, one of the co-founders of Zebrium. We came upon his presentation where he clearly explained why this is different, how this works and it immediately clicked in and we said, okay, this is exactly what we were looking for. We dive deeper. We checked the block posts where Zebrium guys really explain everything very clearly there. They're really open about it. And most importantly, there is a button in their system. And so what happens usually with AI ML vendors is they have this button where you fill in your details and a sales guys call you back and you know, explains the system here. They were like, this is our trial system. We believe in the system you can just sign up and try it yourself. And that's what we did. We took one of our Cisco live DNA Center, wireless platforms. We start streaming logs out of it. And then we synthetically, you know, introduce errors like we broke things. And then we realized that Zebrium was really catching the errors perfectly. And on top of that, it was really quiet unless you are really breaking something. And the other thing we realized was during that first trial is Zebrium was actually bringing a lot of context on top of the logs. During those failures, we worked with couple of technical leaders and they said, "Okay if this failure happens I'm expecting this individual log to be there." And we found out with Zebrium apart from that individual log there were a lot of other things which gives a bit more context around the root cause, which was great. And that's where we wanted to take it to the next level. Yeah. >> Okay. So, you know, a couple things to unpack there. I mean, you have the dart board behind you which is kind of interesting, 'cause a lot of times it's like throwing darts at the board to try to figure this stuff out. But to your other point, Cisco actually has some pretty rich tools with AppD and doing observability and you've made acquisitions like thousand eyes. And like you said, I'm presuming you got to eat your own dog food or drink your own champagne. And so you've got to be tools agnostic. And when I first heard about Zebrium, I was like wait a minute. Really? I was kind of skeptical. I've heard this before. You're telling me all I need is plain text and a timestamp. And you got my problem solved. So, and I understand that you guys said, okay let's run a POC. Let's see if we can cut that from, let's say two days a week down to one day, a week. In other words, 50%, let's see if we can automate 50% of the root cause analysis. And so you funded a POC. How did you test it? You put, you know, synthetic, you know errors and problems in there, but how did you test that, it actually works Necati? >> Yeah. So we wanted to take it to the next level which is meaning that we wanted to back test is with existing SaaS. And we decided, you know, we chose four different products from four different verticals, data center security, collaboration, and enterprise networking. And we find out SaaS where the engineer put some kind of log in the resolution summary. So they closed the case. And in the summary of the SR, they put "I identified these log lines and they led me to the root cause" and we ingested those log bundles. And we tried to see if Zebrium can surface that exact same log line in their analysis. So we initially did it with archery ourself and after 50 tests or so we were really happy with the results. I mean, almost most of them we saw the log line that we were looking for but that was not enough. And we brought it of course to our management and they said, "Okay, let's try this with real users" because the log being there is one thing but the engineer reaching to that log is another take. So we wanted to make sure that when we put it in front of our users, our engineers, they can actually come to that log themselves because, you know, we know this platform so we can, you know make searches and find whatever we are looking for but we wanted to do that. So we extended our pilots to some selected engineers and they tested with their own SaaS. Also due some back testing for some SaaS which are closed in the past or recently. And with a sample set of, I guess, close to 200 SaaS we find out like majority of the time, almost 95% of the time the engineer could find the log they were looking for in Zebrium's analysis. >> Yeah. Okay. So you were looking for 50%, you got the 95%. And my understanding is you actually did it with four pretty well known Cisco products, WebEx client, DNA Center Identity services, engine ISE, and then UCS. Unified pursuit. So you use actual real data and that was kind of your proof point, but Atri, so that sounds pretty impressive. And have you put this into production now and what have you found? >> Well, yes, we've launched this with the four products that you mentioned. We're providing our TAC engineers with the ability, whenever a support bundle for that product gets attached to the support request. We are processing it, using sense and then providing that sense analysis to the TAC engineer for their review. >> So are you seeing the results in production? I mean, are you actually able to reclaim that time that people are spending? I mean, it was literally almost two days a week down to you know, a part of a day, is that what you're seeing in production and what are you able to do with that extra time and people getting their weekends back? Are you putting 'em on more strategic tasks? How are you handling that? >> Yeah. So what we're seeing is, and I can tell you from my own personal experience using this tool that troubleshooting any one of the cases, I don't take more than 15 to 20 minutes to go through the Zebrium report. And I know within that time either what the root causes or I know that Zebrium doesn't have the information that I need to solve this particular case. So we've definitely seen, well it's been very hard to measure exactly how much time we've saved per engineer, right? Again, anecdotally, what we've heard from our users is that out of those three hours that they were spending per day, we're definitely able to reclaim at least one of those hours and what even more importantly, you know, what the kind of feedback that we've gotten in terms of I think one statement that really summarizes how Zebrium's impacted our workflow was from one of our users. And they said, "Well, you know, until you provide us with this tool, log analysis was a very black and white affair, but now it's become really colorful." And I mean, if you think about it log analysis is indeed black and white. You're looking at it on a terminal screen where the background is black and the text is white, or you're looking at it as a text where the background is white and the text is black, but what they're really trying to say is there are hardly any visual cues that help you navigate these logs which are so esoteric, so dense, et cetera. But what Zebrium does is it provides a lot of color and context to the whole process. So now you're able to quickly get to, you know using their Word Cloud, using their interactive histogram, using the summaries of every incident. You're very quickly able to summarize what might be happening and what you need to look into. Like, what are the important aspects of this particular log bundle that might be relevant to you? So we've definitely seen that. A really great use case that kind of encapsulates all of this was very early on in our experiment. There was this support request that had been escalated to the business unit or the development team. And the TAC engineer had really, they had an intuition about what was going wrong because of their experience because of, you know the symptoms that they'd seen. They kind of had an idea but they weren't able to convince the development team because they weren't able to find any evidence to back up what they thought was happening. And it was entirely happenstance that I happened to pick up that case and did an analysis using Zebrium. And then I sat down with a TAC engineer and we were very quickly within 15 minutes we were able to get down to the exact sequence of events that highlighted what the customer thought was happening, evidence of what the sorry not the customer what the TAC engineer thought was a root cause. And then we were able to share that evidence with our business unit and, you know redirect their resources so that we could chase down what the problem was. And that that really shows you how that color and context helps in log analysis. >> Interesting. You know, we do a fair amount of work in theCUBE in the RPA space, the robotic process automation and the narrative in the press when our RPA first started taking off was, oh, it's, you know machines replacing humans, or we're going to lose jobs. And what actually happened was people were just eliminating mundane tasks and the employees actually very happy about it. But what my question to you is was there ever a reticence amongst your team? Like, oh, wow, I'm going to lose my job if the machine's going to replace me or have you found that people were excited about this and what's been the reaction amongst the team? >> Well, I think, you know, every automation and AI project has that immediate gut reaction of you're automating away our jobs and so forth. And there is initially there's a little bit of reticence but I mean, it's like you said once you start using the tool, you realize that it's not your job, that's getting automated away. It's just that your job's becoming a little easier to do and it's faster and more efficient. And you're able to get more done in less time. That's really what we're trying to accomplish here. At the end of the day, Zebrium will identify these incidents. They'll do the correlation, et cetera. But if you don't understand what you're reading then that information's useless to you. So you need the human you need the network expert to actually look at these incidents, but what we are able to skin away or get rid of is all of is all the fat that's involved in our process like without having to download the bundle, which, you know when it's many gigabytes in size and now we're working from home with the pandemic and everything, you're, you know pulling massive amounts of logs from the corporate network onto your local device that takes time and then opening it up, loading it in a text editor that takes time. All of these things are we're trying to get rid of. And instead we're trying to make it easier and quicker for you to find what you're looking for. So it's like you said, you take away the mundane you take away the difficulties and the slog but you don't really take away the work the work still needs to be done. >> Yeah, great. Guys, thanks so much appreciate you sharing your story. It's quite, quite fascinating. Really. Thank you for coming on. >> Thanks for having us. >> You're very welcome. >> Excellent. >> Okay. In a moment, I'll be back to wrap up with some final thoughts. This is Dave Vellante and you're watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> As to the adoption challenges, I wasn't clear on where that should go. I mean, I'm happy to just throw it out there. >> You'll again punch it back to me, right? >> Okay. >> Question comes to me and I'm going to pass the ball to Greg to connect the thread on one backbone is needed. Emphasizing Cat 9K that we just talked about. >> And same thing for the last question. The routes to market? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Yes. >> Great. So we'll use that program for everything. Perfect. >> Masum, could you... Yeah, right there. So mark your place and try not to move that seat. That's it. Now, come forward just a tad, just a tad. There we go. Yeah. Okay, that's fine. Okay Alex, we're good. >> Okay. So Leonard don't leave after this 'Cause I'm going to do my outro. I'm going to do that as a separate asset, okay? >> You bet. >> Okay, great. So guys just it'll be five, four, three, silent, two, one. And then just follow my lead, okay? All right, Alex, you're ready? Masum and Greg, you're ready? >> Ready. >> Ready. >> Okay, here we go on me. On Dave in five, four, three, (beep). Okay, we're back. Digging into the infrastructure to make hybrid work possible. High performance, cost effective, scalable, and secure. That's what it's all about. And so far, we've covered the rapid migration to Wi-Fi 6E technology, and the role that switching is going to play. And now we're going to get into Private 5G and to do that, let's welcome Masum Mir, who is Vice President, and General Manager of Mobile, Cable and IoT business at Cisco. And Greg Dorai who is the Vice President of Product Management for the networking experiences group at Cisco. He's responsible for Catalyst access, that whole portfolio, Enterprise 5G, Cisco DNA Spaces, Cisco ISE, a lot of stuff there Greg. And gentlemen, welcome. >> Dave thank you for having us. >> Yeah, our pleasure. Masum let's start with you on the topic of Private 5G. What do we need to know about that? And more specifically, what's unique about Cisco's Private 5G? >> So most importantly, delivering Private 5G in enterprise terms, that's super important to look at 5G. Many of our peer groups might have got it wrong. We're looking at Private 5G with the lens of enterprise, what enterprise really needs. Is 5G going to come and displace a lot of existing technology, or is it going to help augment the technology that enterprise. It has an excellent the digitization journey. I wanted to start Dave with the basic premise of hybrid work. And what hybrid work really means. Is it only for knowledge worker, or is it for all workers? So we strongly believe hybrid work needs to empower all workers. It's not only connecting remote workers but also bringing people, things and space together. And we strongly believe the combination of Wi-Fi 6 and 5G for private network is going to accelerate that journey bringing people, things and space together in a very, very cohesive way. Why our offer is so unique? We are going to create a continuum. Enterprises don't have to make a hard choice. They will be using Wi-Fi technology and 5G technology hand in hand without creating a disruption on their policy and identity systems. They don't have to rethink, "Do I have to go and build a new backbone?" Is a common backbone that will support both Wi-Fi as well as 5G. Most importantly, delivering this entire offer as a service with the ease of consumption, ease of operation, and a trusted environment that they can put their mission critical workload on. >> Now, I like it. So a couple takeaways there. I mean, it's inclusive of all workers not just knowledge workers, non disruptive, everybody loves to hear that. And of course, it has service model as key Masum, let me stay with you. I mean, we can't wait for 5G, right? It's lightning fast, it got super low latency, very high bandwidth. So that's what everybody's excited about. The question though is, 5G gets introduced, yeah it's going to power things like IoT networks. Is that going to replace Wi-Fi and legacy wired broadband? >> Absolutely not. So we see Private 5G as an augmentation to the enterprise on top of Wi-Fi. Wi-Fi as you heard in the previous conversation, Wi-Fi is bringing more capability with Wi-Fi 6 and Wi-Fi 6E. And 5G is going to be yet another augmentation. Wi-Fi and 5G will coexist within enterprise for many years to come. I would like my friend, Greg to talk a little bit about this continuum. Greg? >> Yeah, I think it's sort of like, I like to say it's an and not an or. Because there's enough use cases out there which require spectrum. And you know, spectrum is a constraint. So you have Private 5G, your Wi-Fi 6, and both offer opportunities. So for example, in an indoor carpeted setting where you're basically connecting your phone for basic browsing, or connecting your laptop, Wi-Fi is sufficient. But if it's a process automation factory where you need seven nines of reliability, Private 5G is the better technology. Similarly outdoor, large areas, it's probably Private 5G, right? 'Cause you can have easy handoff between public and private. So it's use case driven. And once it's use case driven, it's going to be an or because there's so many next-gen use cases. Whether it's AR VR, drones, you know, self-driving cars you name it, right? And so I think these two technologies, 5G and Wi-Fi 6E is going to work hand in hand to deliver awesome outcomes for our customers. >> Yeah. And just the data volumes are going to be incredible. We always talk about the data volumes. You ain't seen nothing yet is what I always say. But the thing is every new tech that's introduced into the enterprise, you can almost be certain that it's going to bring adoption challenges. And not only that, it also is going to bring changes in the way you do things. And that brings new complexities from an operational standpoint. So my question is, how are you addressing this with the introduction of 5G? >> Dave, this is a fantastic question. And this is why we have spent, me and Greg have spent tremendous amount of time to create continuum. I'll start with the foundation first, backbone. So we have been building this enterprise backbone supported with wired connection as well as Wi-Fi connection. We wanted to make sure that as Private 5G comes within enterprise, you don't have to rethink and reimagine your backbone. It's the common backbone that will support what Wi-Fi, Wi-Fi 6, Wi-Fi 6E, as well as Private 5G. You're rest assured that it is the same backbone that we have heard in the previous section on the Cat 9K that will also support a Private 5G access. The second aspect of Private 5G is as you build any new technology into enterprise often time we get into this trap. To get to an outcome, we move fast and we create a silo. And then that silo operation creates barriers to mainstream it. So upfront, we have to think about not creating another silo. And how we are doing it. Number one, is a device that can connect into Wi-Fi network or a Private 5G network. You don't have to reimagine or rethink how I'm going to manage the identity. We'll create continuum with a common identity across the Wi-Fi access or 5G access in the same environment. The second aspect of that is how are we going to retain all our staff? Our enterprise staff is well trained with Wi-Fi technology and wired technology. Now 5G comes with tremendous amount of value and benefit. But it also comes with inherent technology complexity, learning curve problem. This is where our simple to consume, simple to operate model of SaaS comes to play. That we're going to take all those complexity away. It is a cloud delivered service. So enterprise don't have to go through this massive learning curve adopting this technology. Last but not least, on how we are going to manage your capital. Any new technology and enterprise often time, you need huge amount of upfront investment to adopt the technology to get to the other side of getting the outcome. So again, our business model of SaaS will allow enterprise to adopt this new technology and pay as your grow model to meet with enterprise needs. Finally, I also wanted to pass to Greg to touch a little bit more on how we are thinking about this common identity across any access in the enterprise. Greg, to you. >> So we thought about it in two different ways. One is, a lot of enterprises today use our identity and secure management platform. We call it ISE, Cisco ISE platform. And so, years and years of policy and identities, and which access servers, radio servers they use et cetera, are plugged in already into our ISE, right? So, if you can share that with this Private 5G as a service infrastructure that Masum's been building, we think we'll be able to create that bridge. Because we are not forcing enterprises to create new identities or new policies. So that's sort of step one to make it easier. We also thought through so something where in the case of a public 5G network, for example. It's very convenient because you take your phone out of your pocket and it's connected to the network, right? Versus for wifi, you have to log into an SSID in your hotel, or in your home, and in home, it's automatic. But that's that login process that creates friction. And that's a problem because then you can't be seamless. So we initiated what we call as open roaming, right? Like that's a identity federation that we first created between identity owners. Could be carriers, could be anything, right? Anyone who owns an identity. And they will share with venues. And so if the sharing happens, then that onboarding can be automatic. And once onboarding is automatic, then it's easy to pass off between Wi-Fi and 5G. And so that's again, another way in which you can lower the adoption barriers 'cause you share across public Private 5G and Wi-Fi networks. So these are two concrete examples of how we thought about lowering the barriers of adoption as we enter into this heterogeneous world. >> Nice, I can't wait. Let's talk about how this thing, scales in the go to market. What are the most likely, or maybe preferred, or obvious routes to market for Private 5G from Cisco? >> So Dave stay tuned right when they announce more about it. But I can also assure you that access to this spectrum is a challenge for many enterprises when it comes to cellular technology. In some countries there are more spectrum accessible by enterprise. In many countries, that's not the case. So we have thought through very carefully that how do we bring this offer to the market partnering with many service providers and mobile operators. Where in countries where you don't have direct access to the spectrum, our partnership with mobile operators, that you will hear more about as we come to Mobile World Congress, is going to allow our enterprise to consume this technology. even if they don't have the spectrum. In the places where the enterprise might have spectrum access, we'll also in our manage service providers to hide the complexity of the new technology on top of our SaaS services, or cloud delivered services. This is the augmentation with the partnership with manage service providers and mobile operators that will ease this journey for enterprises. Our most important primitive in this journey is to keep it simple for enterprise, make it intuitive, and trust it from day one. >> Outstanding. Okay, Masum, Greg, thanks so much. It was great to have you guys on. I really appreciate your time. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> In a moment, I'll be back with some closing thoughts and an opportunity for you to actually see this technology in action and talk to the experts directly. Keep it right there.

(soft electronic music) >> Welcome to this CUBE Conversation. I'm Lisa Martin. This conversation is part of our third AWS Startup Showcase for this year. I'm pleased to welcome Knox Anderson, the VP of Product Management at Sysdig. Knox, welcome to the program. >> Thanks for having me, Lisa. >> Talk to me a little bit about Sysdig, secure DevOps for containers, Kubernetes, and cloud. Give the audience an overview of what you guys do. >> So Sysdig is this secure DevOps platform that provides observability, security, and compliance functions for anyone that's adopting Kubernetes and Cloud. We really secure the entire lifecycle from source to production, so do things like scan your ISE for misconfiguration, monitor your runtime environments for threats and operational best practices. We provide a lot of capabilities around Prometheus Monitoring, as well, and then also let organizations perform incident response and compliance audits against these environments. >> So founded in 2013, talk to me about the gap in the market that you guys saw then and what some of the key challenges are that you saw for your customers. >> Yeah so we came to market around the same time as containers and Kubernetes and I'd say 2015 to 2018 we kept on saying it's the year of Kubernetes, it's the year of Kubernetes, it's the year of Kubernetes. And then really during the last year and a half in the COVID pandemic, Kubernetes has gone gangbusters. Every major cloud is seeing a huge adoption in their Kubernetes services so that's really our wedge into a lot of organizations. They're changing their platform to take advantages of containers and Kubernetes and you really have to rethink all of your security tooling, and that's when a company like Sysdig comes in. >> Talk to me about customers in terms of, especially in the last year and a half when things have been so dynamic, we've seen so much too, on the threat landscape front changing. Give me an example of a customer or two that you're really helped with solving some of their major challenges, here. >> Yeah, a great customer that we work with is SAP Concur and they kind of encompass a lot of the things that are nice about modern DevOps. So it's a DevOps team that's running a Kubernetes platform that thousands of developers are building their apps and deploying those onto. And they chose Sysdig because really it's not scalable to have every single data team ping that DevOps team and say what's the performance of my service, how is it responding, how can I get scanning integrated with that and so they use Sysdig as a platform that allows developers to easily onboard onto their Kubernetes clusters and then ensure that they're meeting compliance needs and FedRAMP needs for that platform that they deliver their core business apps on. >> Let's talk about the Sysdig's commitment to opensource on the Falco project. >> So Falco is a opensource project that we started at Sysdig, it's built on top of our core system core instrumentation. And so Falco meets a lot of your IDS or your file integrity monitoring requirements that you might have as you move to Kubernetes. And really, it's something we started at about 2016. In 2019, we donated that project to the CMCS which is the same governance body behind Kubernetes, Prometheus, and other kind of core building blocks of the climate of ecosystem. Since then, it's grown immensely. Companies like Shopify are using it to make sure that their PCI apps that they run Kubernetes are fully compliant. And so it's something that we are constantly contributing to the community also from even companies like AWS is a core contributor to the Falco project. And I'm really excited to see where it goes over the next year as Falco extends to also cover some cloud security use cases. >> What can you tell me about the relationship that Sysdig and AWS have? >> They've been a great partner. We internally run our SaaS on AWS so we're using AWS services to deliver our product to our customers. And then we've also really worked closely around how you can provide better security for services like Fargate. So we did working sessions with their engineering teams, learned what we could do to get the visibility that we need for tools like Falco and Sysdig to work seamlessly in Fargate environments. And last April we were able to kind of, AWS released that new functionality, Sysdig built on top of that, and we've already seen great adoption of customers using the Sysdig product on top of Fargate. >> Excellent. Well thank you very much, Knox, for stopping by theCUBE telling us about Sysdig, what you guys are doing ahead of the AWS Startup Showcase. We appreciate your time and your information. >> Thanks for having me. >> For Knox Anderson, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching this CUBE Conversation. (soft electronic music)

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE. Presenting Future Cloud. One event, a world of opportunities. Brought to you by Cisco. >> Okay. We're here with Thomas Scheibe, who's the vice president of Product Management, aka VP of all things Data Center Networking, STN, cloud, you name it in that category. Welcome Thomas, good to see you again. >> Hey, same here. Thanks for having me on. >> Yeah, it's our pleasure. Okay. Let's get right into observability. When you think about observability, visibility, infrastructure monitoring, problem resolution across the network, how does cloud change things? In other words, what are the challenges that networking teams are currently facing as they're moving to the cloud and trying to implement hybrid cloud? >> Yeah. (scoffs) Yeah. Visibility as always is very, very important and it's quite frankly, it's not just, it's not just the networking team, it's actually the application team too, right? And as you pointed out, the the underlying impetus to what's going on here is the, the data center is wherever the data is, and I think we said this a couple years back. And really what happens the, the applications are going to be deployed in different locations, right? Whether it's in a public cloud, whether it's on-prem and they're built differently, right? They're built as micro servers, so they might actually be distributed as well at the same application. And so what that really means is you need, as an operator as well as actually a user, a better visibility, "where are my pieces?", and you need to be able to correlate between where the app is and what the underlying network is, that is in place in these different locations. So you have actually a good knowledge why the app is running so fantastic or sometimes not. So I think that's, that's really the problem statement. What, what we're trying to go after with observability. >> Okay. Let's, let's double click on that. So, so a lot of customers tell me that you got to stare at log files until your eyes bleed, then you've got to bring in guys with lab coats who have PhDs to figure all this stuff out. >> Thomas: Yeah. >> So you just described, it's getting more complex, but at the same time, you have to simplify things. So how, how are you doing that? >> Correct. So what we basically have done is we have this fantastic product that is called ThousandEyes. And so what this does is basically (chuckles) as the name which I think is a fantastic, fantastic name. You have these sensors everywhere and you can have a good correlation on links between if I run a from a site to a site, from a site to a cloud, from the cloud to cloud. And you basic can measure what is the performance of these links? And so what we're, what we're doing here is we're actually extending the footprint of the ThousandEyes agent, right? Instead of just having a, an inversion machine of clouds we are now embedding them with the Cisco network devices, right? We announced this was the Catalyst 9000. And we're extending this now to our 8000 Catalyst product line for the for the SD-WAN products, as well as to the data center products, in Nexus line. And so what you see is, is you know, a half a thing, you have ThousandEyes. You get a million insights and you get a billion dollar off improvements for how your applications run. And this is really the, the power of tying together the footprint of what a network is with the visibility, what is going on. So you actually know the application behavior that is attached to this network. >> I see. So, okay. So as the cloud evolves, it expands, it connects, you're actually enabling ThousandEyes to go further, not just confined within a single data center location but out to the network across clouds, et cetera. >> Thomas: Correct. >> Wherever the network is you're going to have a ThousandEyes sensor and you can bring this together and you can quite frankly pick, if you want to say, Hey I have my application in public cloud provider A domain one, and I have another one in domain two I can do monitor that link. I can also monitor, I have a user that has a campus location or a branch location. I kind of put an agent there and then I can monitor the connectivity from that branch location all the way to the, let's say, corporation's data center or headquarter or to the cloud. And I can have these probes and just the, have visibility in saying, Hey, if there's a performance I know where the issue is. And then I obviously can use all the other tools that we have to address those. >> All right, let's talk about the cloud operating model. Everybody tells us that, you know, it's really the change in the model that drives big numbers in terms of ROI. And I want you to maybe address how you're bringing automation and DevOps to this world of hybrid and specifically, how is Cisco enabling IT organizations to move to a cloud operating model as that cloud definition expands? >> Yeah, no, that's that's another interesting topic beyond the observability. So it really, really what we're seeing, and this is going on for, I want to say couple of years now it's really this transition from operating infrastructure as a networking team, more like a service like what you would expect from a cloud provider, right? This is really around the networking team offering services like a cloud provided us. And that's really what the meaning is of cloud operating model, right? Where this is infrastructure running your own data center where that's linking that infrastructure was whatever runs on the public cloud is operating it like a cloud service. And so we are on this journey for a while. So one of the examples um that we have, we're moving some of the control software assets that customers today can deploy on-prem to an instance that they can deploy in a, in a cloud provider and just basically instantiate things there and then just run it that way. Right? And so the latest example for this is what we have, our Identity Service Engine that is now unlimited availability, available on AWS and will become available mid this year, both on AWS and Azure, as a service. You can just go to Marketplace, you can load it there and now increase. You can start running your policy control in the cloud managing your access infrastructure in your data center, in your campus, wherever you want to do it. And so that's just one example of how we see our Customers Network Operations team taking advantage of a cloud operating model and basically deploying their, their tools where they need them and when they need them. >> Dave: So >> What's the scope of I, I hope I'm saying it right, ISE, right? I.S.E, I think it's um, you call it ISE. What's the scope of that? Like for instance, to an effect my, or even, you know address, simplify my security approach? >> Absolutely. That's now coming to what is the beauty of the product itself? Yes. What you can do is really is, a lot of people talking about is, how do I get to a Zero Trust approach to networking? How do I get to a much more dynamic, flexible segmentation in my infrastructure, again, whether this was only campus access as well as the data center and ISE helps you there. You can use it as a pawn to define your policies and then inter-connect from there, right. In this particular case, we would, instead of ISE in a cloud as a software, alone, you now can connect and say, Hey, I want to manage and program my network infrastructure and my data center or my campus going to the respective controller, whether it's DNA Center for campus or whether it's the, the ACI policy controller. And so yes, what you get as an effect out of this is a very elegant way to automatically manage ,in one place, "what is my policy", and then drive the right segmentation in your network infrastructure. >> Yeah. Zero Trust. It was..Pre pandemic it was kind of a buzzword, now it's become a mandate. I, I wonder if we could talk about- >> Thomas: - Yes >> Yeah, right. I mean, so- >> Thomas: -Pretty much. >> I wondered if we could talk about cloud native apps. You got all these developers that are working inside organizations, they're maintaining legacy apps they're connecting their data to systems in the cloud. They're sharing that data. These developers, they're rapidly advancing their skillsets. How is Cisco enabling its infrastructure to support this world of cloud native, making infrastructure more responsive and agile for application developers? >> Yeah. So you were going to the talk we saw was the visibility. We talked about the operating model how our network operates actually want to use tools going forward. Now the next step to this is, it's not just the operator. How do they actually, where do they want to put these tools? Or how they interact with this tools? As well as quite frankly, as how let's say, a DevOps team, or application team or a cloud team also wants to take advantage of the programmability of the underlying network. And this is where we're moving into this whole cloud native discussion, right. Which has really two angles. So it's the cloud native way, how applications are being built. And then there is the cloud native way, how you interact with infrastructure, right? And so what we have done is we're A, putting in place the on-ramps between clouds, and then on top of it, we're exposing for all these tools APIs that can be used and leveraged by standard cloud tools or cloud-native tools, right? And one example or two examples we always have. And again, we're on this journey for a while, is both Ansible script capabilities that access from RedHat as well as Hashi Terraform capabilities that you can orchestrate across infrastructure to drive infrastructure automation. And what, what really stands behind it is what either the networking operations team wants to do or even the app team. They want to be able to describe the application as a code and then drive automatically or programmatically instantiation of infrastructure needed for that application. And so what you see us doing is providing all these capability as an interface for all our network tools, right. Whether this is ISE, what I just mentioned, whether this is our DCN controllers in the data center whether these are the controllers in the, in the campus for all of those, we have cloud-native interfaces. So operator or a DevOps team can actually interact directly with that infrastructure the way they would do today with everything that lives on the cloud or with everything how they built the application. >> Yeah, this is key. You can't even have the conversation of of Op cloud operating model that includes and comprises on-prem without programmable infrastructure. So that's, that's very important. Last question, Thomas, are customers actually using this? You made the announcement today. Are there, are there any examples of customers out there doing this? >> We do have a lot of customers out there that are moving down the path and using the Cisco High-performance Infrastructure both on the compute side, as well as on the Nexus side. One of the costumers, and this is like an interesting case, is Rakuten. Rakuten is a large telco provider, a mobile 5G operator in Japan and expanding, and as in different countries. And so people, some think, "Oh cloud" "You must be talking about the public cloud provider" "the big three or four". But if you look at it, there's a lot of the telco service providers are actually cloud providers as well and expanding very rapidly. And so we're actually very proud to work together with Rakuten and help them build high performance data center infrastructure based on HANA Gig and actually for a gig to drive their deployment to its 5G mobile cloud infrastructure, which is which is where the whole the whole world, which frankly is going. And so it's really exciting to see this development and see the power of automation visibility together with the High-performance infrastructure becoming a reality on delivering actually, services. >> Yeah, some great points you're making there. Yes, you have the big four clouds, they're enormous but then you have a lot of actually quite large clouds telcos that are either proximate to those clouds or they're in places where those hyper-scalers may not have a presence and building out their own infrastructure. So, so that's a great case study. Thomas.Hey, great having you on. Thanks much for spending some time with us. >> Yeah, same here. I appreciate it. Thanks a lot. >> All right. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE, the leader in tech event coverage. (upbeat music)

>>From around the globe. It's the cube presenting cube on cloud brought to you by Silicon angle. >>Welcome back to coupon cloud I'm Paul Gillan enterprise editor of Silicon angle. You know, as we look ahead at what is in store for the cloud this year, one of the intriguing possibilities that has emerged is the rise of vertical clouds. IBM has been a leader in this area with its launch in late 19 of the IBM financial services cloud. That's a services ready public cloud with exceptional security, as well as Polly, a policy framework for certifying compliance and services from the IBM subsidiary. Promintory now with the IBM financial services cloud, uh, that has been a major focus of our next guest, Hillary Hunter. She is the vice president and CTO of IBM cloud and IBM fellow and a veteran of, I believe, three previous appearances on the cube. Am I right Hillary? >>Yep. Sounds about right. Great to be back here today. >>Thanks for joining us. So let's start with getting an update on the IBM financial services cloud. What progress have you made in signing up customers and your ecosystem of partners? >>Yeah, you know, we've made really significant progress, uh, progress in advancing the IBM cloud for financial services since we last talked, you know, and, and we're really at that place of establishing a trusted platform for the industry, just in, you know, some specifics in addition to bank of America, which we had talked about as our us anchor partner for the program. Um, we've announced several global banks, um, that are partnering with us for the global expansion of the program, including BNP party, you know, which is one of Europe's largest banks. Um, more than 70 ASVs are signed up with us now as part of the program and adopting IBM cloud for financial services, this level of sort of ecosystem is, is exciting because it means that, you know, banks will have the opportunity to, to transform what they're doing, but do so in a way, which is driven by security and compliance, um, so that they can be confident in those deployments on IBM cloud for financial services. >>We also released the IBM cloud policy framework for financial services. This is both the sort of security and compliance posture of the environment, as well as, you know, guidance on controls, reference architectures automation to help people on board. And so both ISBNs and banks now are able to, um, onboard to this environment and offer their wares and deploy their workloads. So it's a really exciting state for us on the program. And we're really in a place where there'll be, you know, an ongoing cadence of, you know, additional releases and announcements of additional partnerships and clients. So it's an exciting time in the program. >>Uh, one of the distinctive features I think of this, uh, of this launch is that you're working actively with your customers. They're working with you on building policy frameworks, as well as I imagined the features that you're offering on the cloud. How do you orchestrate all of these different customers and get them involved and actually co-development >>Yeah. You know, it's the ecosystem conversation and the partnership conversation are two of the fundamental aspects of the program. Like you said, this isn't, you know, just us sitting off in a bubble, inventing the future. Um, you know, we're working internally with partners, uh, within IBM like IBM Promintory, um, which is a consultancy that has deep, deep regulatory expertise and in jurisdictions globally with IBM security services. And then with these individual partners and banks and clients, one of the ways that we bring everything together is through our councils. So our council, our cloud council for financial services, um, it's where we have global systemically important financial institutions partnered with us and, and working together with one another. And, and that covers, you know, CIO is it covers chief security officers, risk officers, et cetera. Um, so we have some formality around how we work with, um, all of these partners, uh, really as a body and as a group. >>And what have you learned from this experience? I mean, if you were to go into the, uh, into other vertical clouds, what have been the lessons >>Ecosystem is so important, right? It's as I look at this space, I see that, you know, everyone has an existing business, they have a platform they're running, they have clients they're trying to service. Um, but those, the software providers into this space are looking themselves to transform their they're looking to transform from being a software vendors, to being SAS providers, the banks and financial institutions themselves are looking to transform from working on their own premises to benefit from the Alaska city and the scale and the optionality of, you know, that being in public cloud provides. So there's a lot of, um, parties themselves that are trying to transform and a lot of vendors into the financial space that are looking to transform. And in that time of a lot of change ecosystem is, is absolutely key. And so, um, the ISE and SAS providers, you know, providing their wares on the cloud for financial services is, is really just as important as those financial services institutions so that everyone can make that transition together. Um, and so that banks that are looking to digitally transform can, can leverage partners that are really at the forefront of that change in that innovation and in platforms for the industry. >>Would you say that there are, is this the first of many, I mean, are there going to be other vertical financial or other vertical IBM clouds or is the range of industries that really need that kind of specificity limited? >>I think it's, it's actually not limited, you know, though, I will say that within the space of industries that are heavily regulated, there's obviously a deeper need for sort of specific cloud embodiments and cloud implementation. So regulated industries like insurance, like telco healthcare, et cetera. Um, these are the ones I think, where there's the greatest opportunity to do verticals that are specific to industry. Um, but you know, as we look at this, this is absolutely part of an IBM cloud strategy to deliver industry specific clouds. And, and, and this comes from our decades of expertise, right? Even in financial services, being able to leverage, you know, those other entities within IBM that I mentioned, right. You know, our, our regulatory, um, background with companies, you know, having helped them address regulatory needs for specific industries, and then translating that into cloud and cloud technologies. Right. And, and then coming up from the other side, you know, in terms of the technologies themselves, we've partnered with key industries, um, to deliver security and data protection and cryptography technologies and such on premises. And we're contextualizing that now for cloud and public cloud deployments. And so it kind of brings together the pieces of decades of expertise and platforms and technology and regulations and contextualizes it into cloud. And I absolutely think that's, you know, an opportunity for, for other industries as well. >>Can you give us a bit of a preview? I mean, do you have specific industries in mind? Is there a time? >>Yeah, so, so, uh, late last year we did announce a second industry specific cloud initiative and that was IBM cloud for telco. So we have in that ecosystem now over 40 partners that are announced, that are working with IBM and with red hat, especially with, um, clients and partners that are looking to help with that transition into 5g and increasing use of IOT. 5g is really this disruptive opportunity for that industry. And, and also just for many other different types of companies and institutions that are looking to deploy with more efficiency, better operational efficiency, deploy with AI capabilities, really being able to do things that like cellular network edge, um, and the places that they're doing business using IOT devices and 5g will enable much of that to really transform and flourish. So a couple of the partners, initially, in addition to that ecosystem that I mentioned in cloud for telco, um, you know, we've got Samsung working with us, Nokia ATNT, et cetera. Um, and so, you know, these, these partnerships and, and capabilities around network edge, um, and specific capabilities in cloud for telco, um, are sort of that second, you know, public announcement that we've made around industry specific cloud, >>As far as your competitive position is concerned. I mean, are, are you taking away business from your competitors when you partner with these, these telcos and these banks, or is this an entirely new line of business that was not previously in the cloud? >>Yeah. You know, these are really, I think in, by and large new opportunities as we look at, you know, for example, how we as customers expect to engage with, um, you know, our bank, right. You know, we are looking to increasingly engage with a bank in a digital way, use our applications, use mobile devices. We're looking for, you know, individual bank outlets, uh, branch outlets of, of a banking institution to be increasingly smart, to service our needs, you know, more quickly, et cetera. Um, and so as we look at, you know, 5g and telco edge, it's about delivery of sort of smarter capabilities and such. I think much of it really is about in this digital transformation space about, you know, creating new capabilities, creating new experiences, creating new ways of engagement, um, and engagement and an opportunity to customize and personalize. Um, I think most of those are sort of new experiences and new capabilities for most companies. >>So speak about IBM's positioning right now. I mean, you're not one of the big three cloud providers to, to become one. Uh, but you do have as a big cloud business and, uh, you've, you've got the verticals, you've got the multi-cloud, uh, I know IBM is big, has been a big champion of multi-cloud. I mean, how is IBM distinctively positioned in the cloud market right now? >>Yeah. You know, we are all in, on hybrid cloud and AI. And if you listened to our CEO and chairman, you'll hear that it is a really consistent message. And he, since he came into his role as, as our CEO, um, so being all in, on hybrid cloud and AI, you know, we really are looking to help our clients transform into holistic cloud architecture. Right? So, so when I say all in, on hybrid cloud, I mean that, you know, it's, there's been a lot of sort of, I jokingly say random acts of cloud usage, right? People have ended up using cloud because there's some SAS function that they want, or some particular line of business has been highly motivated to pursue some service on a particular cloud. And hybrid cloud is really about taking a step back, having a holistic architecture for cloud consumption. And in that sense, you know, uh, clouds, uh, are IBM's partners. >>Um, and we're really looking to enable our clients to have consistency in their deployments to consolidate across their it estate and across their cloud deployments so that they can have, um, a common platform, so they can have efficiency in how their developers to like capabilities. So they can deploy more quickly with security and compliance patterns and have oversight over everything that's going on in a consistent way that really enables them to have that velocity in their business. And so when we then, you know, positioned things like industry cloud, we're leveraging IBM specific technologies to deliver differentiated capabilities and data privacy, data protection, security compliance, where these industries in public cloud. Yes. But it's in the context of helping our clients overall across all the different things. Some of which may not need all of that data privacy or, or, or be leveraging particular SAS content we're looking to help them really have cloud architecture have a holistic conversation across hybrid cloud. Um, and yet to still be able to choose particular cloud deployments on our cloud for industries, um, that enables data protection and policy for the most sensitive and, and enterprise grade things that they're looking to do at the core of their business. >>So speaking of hybrid hybrid cloud, I mean the major cloud providers, Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Oracle, and other one all have on premises offerings right now. Uh, several of them are working with telcos to expand their reach out into, uh, into co-location and into telecom, uh, data centers. Uh, all of these things were to enable is this distributed cloud fabric kind of a hybrid cloud fabric what's, IBM's play in this area. Uh, do you have a similar strategy or is it different? >>I really think, and I think you maybe wanted to get a little bit into sort of, you know, trends and predictions here in this conversation and, and, and, you know, we, we absolutely see that need for distributed cloud for cloud to really kind of be alive in all the places where it needs to be in, in all the places that someone is doing business and in a consistent way across cloud environments, um, to be one of those major trends, that's emerging as a really hot conversation. We have introduced IBM cloud satellite, um, that is IBM's hybrid cloud as a service platform, um, and enables our clients to leverage, um, uh, OpenShift and Kubernetes environments, developer tooling, uh, consistency in a cloud catalog, visibility and control over all their resources, um, across different environments. And to be able to run end, to end with consistency from on-premises to edge to different public cloud providers. >>Um, and this is absolutely something that across industries, but, you know, within also those industries that we're focused on in particular, um, that we're seeing a lot of interesting conversations emerge because if cloud is sort of everywhere, if cloud is distributed and can be on premises and in public cloud, it enables this consistency in this parody, um, really that sort of brings together that, that seamlessness, not just the random acts cloud usage, right? I mean, it means that using cloud, um, can be something that, that drives, you know, speed of release of new product. It means that you can deliver more capability and functionality into, you know, a retail outlet where you're doing business or a banking, you know, brick and mortar location. Um, you can have, you know, AI for it ops and understand what's going on across those different environments and ensure things are kept secure and patched and updated, and you're responding to incidents in efficient ways. Um, and so really having a consistent cloud environment and a distributed cloud environment across different locations, um, it's really key to leveraging the promises of what everyone had originally hoped to get out of out of cloud computing. >>Of course, one of IBM's distinctive, uh, advantages of this area is you've got a huge hardware install base out there. I mean, how do all those three 60 mainframes figuring it out, figure into this, >>Um, with the OpenShift capabilities in our Clara operations with red hat in this area, we are able to actually help our clients leverage Kubernetes and Linux and all those things, even on the mainframe. So across the mainframe family, the IBM power family, um, you know, where folks may also have AIX or IBMI deployments, people can now do Lennox, they can do open shifts, they can do Coopernetti's. Um, and we have core technologies that enable that really to be stitched together. And I think that's one of the unique perspectives that IBM has in this whole conversation about hybrid cloud. Um, there are many different definitions of hybrid cloud, but we really view it as stretching from the traditional enterprise. It, like you said, there's a lot of it out there and being able to also incorporate OpenShift and Kubernetes in a common cloud platform, um, on traditional enterprise, it on private cloud, on fresh deployments, on private cloud, Amazon public cloud, that really is the whole it estate. So when we talk about hybrid cloud, when we talk about distributed cloud, really talking about the entirety of VIT state, not just sort of new deployments of, of SAS or something like that. >>So as someone who's on the front lines of, you know, what customers are asking about cloud, do you see customer the questions that they're asking changing? Are they, are they their decision criteria changing for how they choose a cloud provider? >>Yeah. You know, I think that, um, there's definitely a lot more conversation, especially in this current era where there's an accelerated rate of cloud adoption. Um, there's a lot more conversation around things like security, um, data protection, data, privacy, being able to run in an environment that you trust, not just is it a cloud and what does it do, but can I trust it? Do I understand how my data is protected, how my workloads are secured? Um, you know, that's really why we started cloud for financial services because that industry shepherds such vital data, right? So the reason that they are highly regulated is because of the importance of what they are stewarding very important data and financial information. Um, so, you know, we began there with the cloud for regulated industries there with, with financial services, but I see that across all industries, I was participating on a panel, um, that was, uh, with a bunch of CEOs. >>And I was there interviewing some CEOs who were from a much more sort of consumer facing and also from, from foods industry, et cetera. And their conversation was exactly the same as I have with many other clients, which is that their cloud choices, their efficiency and cloud deployment now are largely driven by the ability to get to a secure posture and the ability to demonstrate their, to their internal security and risk teams that they understand their data protection, data, privacy posture. So we are seeing lots of pickup and, and conversation opportunity around confidential competing specifically. Um, and you know, that's really about enabling, uh, our clients to have full authority and privacy in their computing, in their code and their data, even when running in a cloud environment. And so I do see a shift everyone's more concerned about security, and I think we have great technologies and we've been working with core partners to establish and harden and, and create, um, generations of technology that can really answer those questions. >>I have to ask you about that term confidential computing. I haven't heard that before. What, what does that involve? >>Yeah. You know, it's, it is a buzzword to watch out here for an in 2021. So confidential computing means being able to run in an environment where there are others in a, in a cloud computing environment, for example, um, but still have full privacy and authority over what you're doing. So you are effectively in an enclave, uh, imagine yourself sort of protected and secured. And so our confidential competing technologies, um, we're actually on basically our fourth generation of, of, of the hardware and software technologies to create that strong degree of isolation. Um, this enables us to deliver a really rich portfolio. Um, frankly, the, the, the richest portfolio in the industry of actuals services delivered, um, using confidential, competing and secure enclaves. And so we can enable our customers to solution things in a way, for example, where their data, you know, can not even be visible to our cloud operators or where they, uh, retain, you know, full control over, you know, a database and have full privacy as they're running in that environment. Um, these are really great, um, you know, considerations, but they impact everything from health care financial services. Uh, we have other partners and clients who are working to protect consumer data, um, you know, through these means et cetera. And so, um, across different industries, everyone's really looking at this topic of data, privacy, data protection. Um, and so we have a whole suite and whole family of confidential competing based, uh, services that we're able to offer to, uh, offer those assurances and that privacy to them in their cloud competing. >>I do have to ask you about the multi-cloud because this is a topic of constant debate in the industry of whether customers want to move shift workloads across multiple clouds to protect themselves from lock-in. I mean, is that a fantasy? Is that real? Is that a too restrictive? Uh, this has been a key part of IBM strategy is enabling the multi-cloud. How do you see customer attitudes developing right now? How do they want to use multiple clouds or in fact, do they, are they, are they, uh, concentrating perhaps more of their workloads in one or two? >>Yeah. You know, we believe vendor locking goes against the true spirit of hybrid cloud, right. Um, that desire to have consistency across environments, um, that desire to, uh, and the business need to have, you know, continuity and resiliency and operations, et cetera. Um, and so I do see this as a really important topic, um, from the perspective of, you know, managing environments, I think in multi-cloud, um, I think folks are starting to realize that multicloud isn't necessarily a strategy. It's a reality. Um, people have deployments in lots of different cloud environments, um, that happened somewhat organically in many cases. And so the key question is how to then get to visibility and control over those resources. Um, I think kind of two of the, the, the core topics in that are multicloud management, um, you know, being able to understand, you know, clusters and virtual machines and other things that are deployed across different environments and manage them with a common set of policies, for example. >>Um, and then in addition to multicloud management, um, I, for it, operations is another really important topic in, in multi-cloud being able to respond to incidents, understand and analyze and leverage AI, um, for what's going on for understanding what's going on across those environments, um, is another really core topic. And then as you said, you know, distributed cloud is a means of getting that consistency, having a common, you know, control and deployment plane across those different environments, um, can help it not just be sort of accidental usage of multiple cloud environments, but very intentional deployment based on the needs of particular workloads to the environment that they're best suited to. Um, and, and that's really what you want to aim for. Um, not that multi-cloud is necessarily, um, you know, uh, uh, I guess I would say is, is it is a, um, it is a complexity that is manageable, um, through these, you know, new types of technologies and multicloud management and such like that, and cloud >>Well, uh, Hillary TIS, the season for predictions is January, uh, everyone's prognostic table of what the future will look like. What do you think are going to be the main trend lines in cloud this year? Yeah, >>You know, I, I sort of sprinkled a few in there as we were talking, but I really do think that, um, the conversation around hybrid cloud number one, how to have an open innovation ecosystem for cloud, where, um, you have a consistency across environments, you know, not just random acts of cloud usage, but intentional and holistic architecture. Um, I really see that as the transition to sort of the second wave of, of cloud adoption. Um, and then secondly, as we were talking earlier about security, right, everyone is wondering about data policy and data privacy. Um, we've always taken a strong stance that, you know, our client's data is, is, is their data. We are not going to be using their data to, you know, further develop our, um, you know, AI services on our cloud or something. Um, we have deployed technologies and confidential computing that enabled them to keep full control over their keys so that, you know, even our caught operators center have access to data, um, competing in secure enclaves, where they have a strong degree of isolation and full privacy and authority over their workload. >>I really think, you know, these two topics open and secure hybrid computing and with consistency across environments, but distributed cloud technology. Um, and secondly, security, I think these are really important topics for 2021, and they may seem a little bit obvious, but I think it's important as people look at this to look for technologies that are multiple generations into this journey, right. Um, you know, partner with, um, folks who, um, are, you know, committed, uh, very clearly to an open ecosystem and open source innovation on the one hand. Um, and secondly, you know, um, when we talk about security and data protection, you want to know that that provider is several generations into that journey. Um, you know, so you really know that that technology has been vetted out is that production scale and has the stable basis. And so I think this is the year when folks are transitioning from cloud adoption, uh, to consistency in cloud and security and privacy in cloud >>Final question. And it has nothing to do with cloud. You're an IBM fellow. And I see that term, uh, turn up occasionally with other other people I've spoken to from IBM, what is it? IBM fellow, how do you become one and what right. Privileges and responsibilities as an entail. >>Yeah. You know, it's an exciting opportunity to be an IBM fellow. There's about a hundred active IBM fellows, um, right now. Um, so there aren't too many of us, but there is a small community of us. Um, IBM fellow is IBM's highest technical designation within our technical population. Um, so I do have a role within our cloud business. Um, but as one of our technical leaders, um, get to interact with the other fellows, um, you know, work on strategy for IBM in technology overall as a company. Um, and I also get to sort of be a trusted advisor to many of our clients. And so, um, I get to with CTOs and CEOs and VP of application development, um, you know, kind of, kind of profiles and VP of, of it and things like that, um, in our different clients and really help them wrestle through those struggles, um, of, you know, future it transformation. >>And so, um, you know, part of what I enjoy most about sort of the role and, and the fellow role is, is being able to kind of be that trusted advisor to many of our clients. There's been so much change in this last year for everyone. Um, and being able to, you know, also, you know, help our technical population through that, you know, in various means and then help our clients, um, through all of that change and really being able to take and grasp onto the opportunities, um, that this last year has had in the way that we work has changed. And the way that companies are looking to deliver capabilities has changed. Um, so that's, for me, the exciting part of, of the role, >>Or you're wondering a hundred then, and you do a great job of articulating the IBM strategy and also the, uh, the cloud landscape, Hillary Hunter, VP and CTO, excuse me, CTO of IBM cloud. Thank you so much for joining us today on Cuban cloud. >>Thanks so much for having me. It was a pleasure. >>I'm Paul Gillan stick with us.

(upbeat music) >> Male Voiceover: Live, from San Diego, California it's theCUBE covering Cisco Live US 2019 brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >> Hey welcome back to theCUBE Lisa Martin with Stu Miniman. We are day one of our coverage of Cisco Live from San Diego. We're going to be here for three days of coverage but a great day so far and we're pleased to welcome back one of our CUBE alumni Kent Christensen the Practice Director from Insight with the Cloud & Data Center at Transformation Group. Kent, welcome back! >> Thank you. It's been a little while. >> It has been a little while. So give our audience a little overview of Insight your partnership with Cisco and some of the history of how you got to Insight. >> Yeah so you remember us as Data Link we were a smaller company than we are now. Focusing on Cloud and data center transformation. We've talked at Dell events, CFC events things like that. But we were a Cisco partner for about 10 years and recently we were acquired and we did what the name sounds like, Cloud and data center transformation. We've talked about Cloud on the channel and all these other things. Insight acquired us. Insight has kind of four major service solution sets if you would. Some people look at them as a supply chain company and it's a great, large supply chain company. Microsoft's largest global partner. Some people understand it for the device and use the devices that's called Connective Workforce. Each of these are pretty big businesses you know, compared to where we are. What was Data Link is now what's called Cloud and Data Center Transformation. So we're helping people with the journey to the Cloud and the Hybrid Cloud and all that other stuff. And Cisco is right dead center in the middle of that and then the fourth one is really exciting. It's called Data and Digital Innovation and that's a couple of companies. Blue Metal, Cardinal etc. Again, a thousand people. Microsoft ILT and AI partner of the year. So all of that is a pretty large channel organization if you would. >> That's great stuff Kent. We love to talk to the channel as the folks in Wall Street do. It like you know, we do a channel check. Okay, You know, Cisco's got a few areas that have you know, stronger growth in the market over all. Security's doing well, a few other spaces on that are you know growing faster over all than the market and helping >> Kent: Absolutely >> grow where Cisco's going, so give us the reality. What's happening with your customers? What's driving you know the most growth in your business and you know, where is Cisco kind of leading the pack? >> So we're doing really well with Cisco and I don't know if it's because we're helping clients build solutions that truly lead to business outcomes. We're not order takers. So we're actually moving up we're now Cisco's fourth largest partner. We're growing well high single digits growth which is pretty phenomenal on such a big number. We're talking a billion dollars now in growing that level and there's a number of reasons. You know, some of it is there's a lot of great technology we can get into some of those. We see the economy as being pretty good not bad yet. You know everybody's worried about what might happen. You mentioned security, we can get into a little bit of that. That's driving a lot of network refresh and stuff like that. You know and a little bit of intra-company you know that word getting our stuff together so this large company with 15000 customers acquires a company with 2000 customers and now we're getting introduced into the 15000 with less friction. So that's helping us and that's helping our Cisco Business. >> Lisa: See here we are at Cisco Live. The thirtieth time that they had done a customer partner event. The network has not only changed dramatically since their first event in '89 which was called Networkers I believe. >> KENT: Yeah. >> But networking technology has also massively changed you mentioned security. And now in this multi-cloud world no longer can you just put a firewall around a data center right? Obviously that doesn't work. We have this core Cloud edge very amorphous environments. Proliferation of mobile, of mobile data traversing the networks. Talk to us about when you're talking with customers who need to transform their data centers where do you start from a networking conversation perspective? Where automation comes in, where security comes in? >> You know, a lot of the Cloud native transformation tends to be the edge of the network. You know conversion, infrastructure, stuff like that that's on the edge. The network security guys which I'm not, you know, I work with them very closely but we almost separate ourselves out from a data center networking and security. But security's end to end to your point, right? I've got software to find access. I've got mobile access points. I've got you know, Tetration. I've got all of these products that are helping people that in the past they were just patching holes in the dyke. You know, hey this happened let's put this software product in. This happened, let's put this in. We actually built a security practice like the last 3 or 4 years ago, it's growing. You know the number of people that are, whether it's regulation, compliance, you know. "I got some real problem. I think I've got a problem and I don't know what it is." Our ability to come back and sit down and say let's evaluate what your situation is. So I was talking to the networking guys and said wow. Enterprise networking's up, way up. What's driving that, the need to transform or is that, you know what is it? And they're like a lot of times it's something along security that's making them step back and re-evaluate and then sometimes that translates into an entire network refresh. >> Stu: So Kent you mentioned Cisco Tetration and that's one I've heard a number of times having some growth. What else, what are some of the you know hot products out there in your customer base? >> ISE, Software to Find, SD Wan, SD Access. >> Stu: Yeah, so one of the things I just want to understand Cisco actually has a few solutions in some of those areas. Any specific products that you call out or you know or that'd be mentioned? >> Kent: In the enterprise networking I wouldn't go through each and every individual one. I think, this is my view as the laymen right? 'Cause I'm the data center guy and here's the security guy and here's the networking guy. I think when Cisco started acquiring all these security companies 3 years ago and you know watched it and it looked like a patchwork quilt and said this stuff doesn't fit together? Now it fits together that story is really solid. And so we've got clients that had the luxury of either saying I'm going to do a refresh because I don't want to keep plugging holes and maybe my technology was ready for it anyway. And there's a lot of reasons to refresh right? My technology's due. Digital transformation, I need to get my network ready for IoT etc. But I keep hearing security over and over right? I've got compliance and regulations and all of this other stuff. >> Yeah but in your core space the data center world and any products that are kind of leading the charge right now? >> You know one of the things that's happening in data center from a Cisco perspective 'cause they're babies right? Ten years old in data center. They didn't really have data center before that. And we were there at the beginning and that's really how CDCT built our data center practice so you know when you talk multi-cloud at the end of the day even if I'm Cloud first I'm going to end up with some of these mission-critical workloads. They might be boring but they're running the company. They're not the innovative Dev-Ops, IoT, AI thing that seems cool. They're running the company and that's still a converged or a hyper-converged play. And some of those you know there's a lot of opportunities we've been talking about all day with the Cisco BU's. Some of those are ready for refresh right so there's a great opportunity to just to go in and say okay what's next? You know, we've added you know the latest server technology. We've added all these things in the server technology. Obviously all flash and the storage technologies and all of that so that's huge. And then you know Cisco continues to innovate in data center solutions with things like HyperFlex which we've talked a little bit about. And it started off a little slow because again just like they were in servers why are they here? Why are they in hyper-converge? So I get it. And now that product is fully improved and improved and improved and we're seeing tremendous growth there and I think the luxury they have on a data center solution is that some of the other guys have to do a or. "Hey, I'm the leading hyper-converge technology but it's me or everybody else." Right? And then Cisco's an end that I can connect those things together. >> So let's talk about some customer examples you can feel free to anonymize these. I'm seeing a smile on your face. When you come into an organization whether it's a 100 year old bank or it's a born of the Cloud or maybe a smaller more nimble organization that needs to undergo transformation data center transformation. What is the conversation like with respect to helping them take all of these disparate presumably disparate solutions? Whether they're 10-15 different security solutions. How does Insight come in and help them I don't want to say integrate but almost plug these things in together to extract value and help them make sure that what they're implementing from a technology perspective is necessary and also an accelerator of their business? >> Yeah, there's a lot there. So we have this... A year ago everybody wanted to talk about Cloud and then you had the security guys but now you have a lot of change agents with transformation in their title right? And so we have this belief. You're not going to digitally transform. Now there are people that are born digital but companies that were buying Cisco 10 years ago need to go through a digital transformation and you can't go through a digital transformation until you have a data center transformation or an IT transformation. So we've done studies. What slows people down? What makes these fail? Legacy stuff, security concerns I mean these are the top 3 things right. Budget. I was just running the company. And so we start there. Where do you want to get to? And then most of it is let's understand what you have. What your objectives are as an organization. "I want to get to this. I want to get to that." Well before we start talking about technologies. It's very, it's very services oriented. I can't just go in there and throw you a bomb and say this is going to fix your problem 'cause everybody's different. So it is very custom and very services oriented. >> Lisa: But you're saying... >> Stu: I was just going to say it's a pattern I've seen quite a bit for the last couple of years. Step 1 is modernize the platform and then step 2 you can worry about your data and application story on top of that in that multi-cloud world that you live in. >> And step 1 admit you have a problem. >> Yeah. >> (Lisa laughs) >> So we actually did a study you know we do this and we're like. Why does everybody keep stalling why have we been stuck in this nobody's refreshing things and stuff like that? Well there's a lot of new technology they don't get it. But you know do you want to digitally transform? Understand what you need to do. But we ask questions like rate your IT infrastructure just rate it B-minus. Across a lot of large companies that was the grade they gave themselves. So there's a lot of opportunity to say: Okay where do you want to be and where do we start? >> Yeah, 90 percent of people think they are above average drivers. So... >> Drivers? But they think they have a B-Minus in IT infrastructure and it's like Do you consider that a problem? >> Yeah. >> So once you as we wrap here in the next minute or so. Once you get them to admit yeah there's problems here that Insight and other partners come in and improve. Data center transformation, modernizing that infrastructure but it's got to be concurrent with starting to modernize and transform other areas right? >> Absolutely. So you know there's so many places you could start. Sometimes you just go and say well what's your appetite? Every once in a while you get somebody who's ready to go through an entire transformational process. You know 20 million dollars or more of whatever and we get those opportunities those are awesome. Now we get to start back and figure out where you want to be and how to get there most efficiently. A lot of people have to pick and choose. You know, what's your concern right now? And so we'll help them figure that out and again it could be security it could be you know how many people... We have over a thousand enterprise customers running Sequel 2008. That's a problem right? Because that's end of support within a year. That's a problem that's an opportunity. You know so they are still trying to figure out these things. And then a picture of where I want to get to. Which we've kind of always said and that's where that Digital Innovation Group they've got all these AI projects and as we sit here and talk about those things that are kind of born in the Cloud but they're coming towards the infrastructure. It was easy to get a GPU in the Cloud but I'm going to have to start... And so we have actually have all the latest Cisco technology and storage technology of AI stuff in our labs and stuff like that so there's a lot going on. Our CEO would say "It's a really exciting time to be in this business." >> It sounds like it! I wish we had more time to start digging through that but you'll have to come back Kent. >> Okay. >> Alright thanks for joining us. >> Yeah. Thank you. >> With Stu Miniman, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE live. Day 1 of our coverage of Cisco Live from San Diego. Thanks for watching.

>> Narrator: Live from Orlando, Florida, it's theCube covering PentahoWorld 2017 brought to you by Hitachi Ventara. >> Welcome back to theCube's live coverage of PentahoWorld brought to you by Hitachi Ventara. My name is Rebecca Knight, I'm your host along with my co-host, Dave Vellante. We're joined by Michael Weiss, he is the senior manager at NASDAQ, and Shere Saidon, who is analytics manager at NASDAQ. Thanks so much for coming back to theCube, I should say, you're Cube veterans now. >> We are, at least I am. This is his first year, this is his first time at PentahoWorld. So, excited to bring him along. >> Okay so you're a newbie but you're a veteran so. (laughing) >> Great. So, tell us a little bit about what has changed since the last time you came on, which was 2015, back then? >> So the biggest thing that's happened in the past 18 months is we've launched seven new exchanges. Integrated seven new exchanges. We bought the ISE, the International Stock Exchange, which is three options markets. We just completed that integration in August. We've also bought the Canadian, CHI-X, the Canadian Exchange, which also had three equities markets, so we integrated them, and we went live with a dark pool offering for Goldman back in June. So now we operate a dark pool for Goldman Sachs, and we're looking to kind of expand that offering at this point. >> So you're just getting bigger and bigger. So tell our viewers a little bit how Pentaho fits into this. >> So Pentaho is the engine that kind of does all our analytics behind the scenes at post trade, right. So we do a lot of traditionally TL, where we're doing batch processing. In the back-end we're doing a little bit more with the Hadoop ecosystem leveraging things like EMR, Spark, Presto, that type of stuff, And Pentaho kind of helps blend that stuff together a little bit. We use it for reporting, we do some of the BA, we're actually now looking to have the data Pentaho generates plug in a little bit of Tableau. So, we're looking to expand it and really leverage that data in other ways at this point. Even doing some things more externally, doing more data offerings via Pentaho externally. >> So I got to do a NASDAQ 101 for my 13 year-old. Came up to me the other day and said, "Daddy, what's the NASDAQ index and how does it work?" Well, give us a 20 second answer. >> Michael: On the NASDAQ index? >> Yeah, what's the NASDAQ Index and how does it work? >> Probably the wrong person to answer that one but, the index is generally just a blend of various stocks. So the S&P 500 is a blend of different stocks, much like that the cues, are NASDAQ's equivalent of the S&P, right, so, we use a different algorithm to determine the companies that make up that blend, but it's an index just like at the S&P. >> They're weighted by market cap- >> Michael: Right, yeah. >> And that determines the number at the end- >> Michael: Correct. >> And it goes up and down based on what the stock's index. >> Right, and that's how most people know NASDAQ, right. They see the S&P went up by 5 points, The Dow went down by 3 and the NASDAQ went up by a point, right. But most people don't realize that NASDAQ also operates 27 exchanges worldwide, I think it is now. So, probably a little bit more, maybe closer to 32, but... >> So you mentioned that you're doing a dark pool for Goldman >> Michael: Yes. >> So that's interesting. We were talking off camera about HFT and kind of the old days, and dark pools were criticized at the time. Now Goldman was one of the ones shown to be honest and above board, but what does that mean the dark pool for your business and how does that all tie in? >> Michael: So, dark pools are isolated markets, right, so they don't necessarily interact with the NASDAQ exchange themselves, it's all done within the pool. You interact with only people trading on that pool. What NASDAQ has done is we took our technology and we now host it for Goldman so, we have I-NETs our trading system, so we gave them I-NET, we built all the surrounding solutions, how you manage symbols, how you manage membership. Even the data, we curate their data in the AWS. We do some Pentaho transformations for them. We do some analytics for them. And that's actually going to start expanding, but yeah, we've provided them an entire solution, so now they don't have to manage their own dark pool. And now we're going to look to expand that to other potential clients. >> Dave: So that's NASDAQ as a technology >> Yes. >> Dave: Provider. Very interesting. So I was saying, earlier, the Hong Kong Stock Exchange is basically closing the facility where they house humans, again another example of machines replacing humans. So the joining, well NASDAQ, kind of, but NYSE, London Stock Exchange, Singapore, now Hong Kong... Essentially, electronic trading. So, brings us to the sort of technology underpinnings of NASDAQ. Shere, maybe you can talk a little bit about your role, and paint a picture of the technology infrastructure. >> Yeah so I focus primarily on the financial side of corporate finance. So we leverage Pentaho to do a lot of data integration, allow us to really answer our business questions. So, previously it would take days to put basic reporting together, now you've got it all automated, or we're working towards getting it mostly automated, and it just answer the questions that we need. And no longer use our gut to drive decisions, we're using hard data. And so that's helped us instrumentally in a lot of different places. >> Dave: So, talk more about the data pipeline, where the data's coming from, how you're blending it, and how you're bringing it through the pipeline and operationalizing it. >> Yeah, so we've got a lot of different billing systems, so we integrate companies, and historically we've let them keep their billings systems. So just kind of bring it all together into our core ERP, seeing how quantities...and just getting the data, and just figuring out on the basic side, how much do we make from a certain customer? What are we making from them? What happens in different scenarios if they consolidate, or if they default? And some of the pipeline there is just blending it all together, normalizing the data, making sure it's all in the same format, and then putting it in a format where our executives or business managers can actually make decisions off of it. >> Well you're talking about the decision making process, and you said it's no longer gut, you're using data to drive your decisions, to know which direction is the right direction. How big a change is that, just culturally speaking? How has that changed? >> Yeah, it's huge, at least on our side, it's making us a long more confident in the decisions we're making. We're no longer going in saying, hey this is probably how we should do it. No, the numbers are showing us that this is going to pay off, and we stick to it and look at the hard facts, rather than what do we think is going to happen? >> So, talk a little bit about what you guys are seeing here, and you're doing a lot of speaking here, we were joking earlier, you're kind of losing your voice. You're telling your story, what kind of reactions you getting? Share with us the behind the scenes at the conference. >> I think at this conference you're seeing a lot of people kind of fall in line with similar ideas that we're trying to get to. Taking advantage more instead of your traditional MPPs, or your traditional relational databases, moving more towards this Hadoop ecosystem. Leveraging Spark, Presto, Flume, all these various new technologies that have emerged over the past two to five years, and are now more viable than ever. They're easier to scale, if you look at your traditional MPPs, like we're a big Redshift user, but every time you scale it there's a cost with that, and we don't necessarily need to maintain all that data all the time, so something in the Hadoop ecosystem now lets us maintain that data without all the unnecessary cost. I see a lot of more of that than I did two years ago, a lot more people are following that trend. I think the other interesting trend I've seen this week is this idea of becoming more cloud agnostic. Where do you operate, and how do you store your data should be irrelevant to the data processing, and I think it's going to be a tough nut to crack for Pentaho, or any vendor. But if you can figure out a way to either do some type of cloud parity, where you have support across all your services, but you don't have to know which service you deploy to when you design your pipelines, I think that's going to be huge. I think we're a little ways from that, but that's been a common theme this week as well, both private and your big three cloud providers right now, your Googles, your Azures, and your AWS. >> So when I asked you said cloud agnostic, that's great, good vision and aspiration. The follow up would be, am I correct that you don't see it as data location agnostic, right, you want to bring the cloud model to your data, versus try to force your data into a cloud? Or not necessarily? >> A lot of it I think is being driven by not wanting to be vendor locked in, so they want to have the ability to, and I think this is easier said than done, the ability to move your data to different cloud providers based on pricing or offerings, right, and right now going from AWS to Google to Azure would be a very painful process. So you move petabytes of data across, it's not cost efficient and all the savings you want to realize by moving to maybe a Google in the future, are not going to be realized cause of all the effort it's going to take to get there. >> Dave: We had CERN on earlier, and they were working on that problem... >> Yeah, it's not a trivial problem to solve, but if you can crack that, and you can then say hey I wanna...even if I have a service offering, Like our operating a dark pool for Goldman. We also have a market tech side, where we sell our trading platform and various solutions to other exchanges worldwide. If we can come up with a way to be able to deploy to any cloud provider, even on an on-prem cloud, without having to do a bunch of customizations each time, that would be huge, it would revolutionize what we do. We're, as our own company, starting to look at that, and talking with Pentaho, they're also... are going to eye that as a potential way to go, with abstractions and things like that, but it's going to take some time. >> We're you guys here yesterday for the keynotes? >> Michael: Saw some of the keynotes, yes. >> The big messaging, like every conference that you go to, is be the disruptor, or you're going to get disrupted. We talked earlier off camera... Trading volumes are down, so the way you traditionally did business is changing, and made money is changing. >> Michael: Right. >> We talked earlier about you guys becoming a technology provider, I wonder if you could help us understand that a little bit, from the standpoint of NASDAQ strategy, when we hear your CEOs talk, real visionary, technology driven transformations. >> Yeah, I think Adena's coming in is definitely looking at that as a trend, right? Trading volumes are down, they've been going down, they've kind of stabilized a little bit, and we're stable able to make money in that space, but the problem is there's not a ton of growth. We acquire the ISE, we acquire the CHI-X, we're buying market share at that point. So you increase revenue, but you also increase overhead in that way. And you can only do so many major acquisitions at a time, you can only do how many one billion dollar acquisitions a year before you have to call it a day. And we can look at more strategic, smaller acquisitions for exchanges, but that doesn't necessarily bring you the transformation, the net revenue you're looking for. So what Adena has started to look at is, how do we transform to more of a technology company? We're really good at operating exchanges, how do we take that, and we already have market tech doing it, but how do we make that more scalable, not just to the financial sector, but to your other exchanges, your Ubers or your StubHubs of the world? How do you become a service provider, or a platform as a service for these other companies, to come in and use your tech? So we're looking at how do we rewrite our entire platform, from trading to the back-end, to do things like: Can we deploy to any cloud provider? Can we deploy on-prem? Can we be a little bit more technology agnostic so to speak, and offer these as services, and offer a bunch of microservices, so that if a startup comes up and wants to set up an exchange, they can do it, they can leverage our services, then build whatever other applications they want on top of it. I think that's a transformation we need to go through, I think it's good vision, and I'm looking forward to executing it. It's going to be a couple years before we see the fruits of that labor, but Adena's really doing a great job of coming in, and really driving that innovation, and Brad Peterson as well, our CIO, has really been pushing this vision, and I think it's really going to work out for us, assuming we can execute. >> Well you know what's interesting about that, if I may, is financial services is usually so secretive about their technology, right? But your business, you guys are becoming a technology provider, so you got to face the world and start marketing your capabilities now, and opening about that. It's sort of an interesting change. >> I think you'll see that starting to become more of a thing over the next year or two, as we start actually looking to build out the platform and figure it out. We do market on the market tech side, I mean it's not a small business, but we're more strategic about who we market to, cause we're still targeting your financial exchanges, more internationally than in the U.S., but there's only so many of them, again you have to start looking at rebranding, rebuilding, and rethinking how we think about exchanges in general, and not thinking of them as just a financial thing. >> Well that's what I wanted to get into, because you're talking about this rebranding, and this rebuilding, this transformation, to the backdrop within an industry that is changing rapidly, and we have sort of the threat of legislative reform, perhaps some administrative reforms coming down all the time, so how do you manage that? I mean, those are a lot of pressures there, are you constantly trying to push the envelope right up until any changes take place? Or what would you say Shere and Michael? >> Probably again not the right person to ask about this, but we're definitely trying to stay on top of the cutting edge in innovation and the technologies out there that, whether it be Blockchain, or different types of technologies. I mean we're definitely trying to make sure we're investing in them, while maintaining our core businesses. >> Right, it's trying to find that balance right now of when to make the next step in the technology food chain, and when to balance that with regulatory obligations. And if you look at it, going back to the idea of being able to launch marketplaces, I think what you're ending up seeing over the coming years is your Ubers, your StubHubs, I think they're going to become more regulated at some level. And we're good at operating more regulated markets, so I think that's where we can kind of come in and play a role, and help wade through those regulations a little bit more, and help build software to adhere to those regulations. >> Since you brought up Blockchain, Jamie Dimon craps all over Blockchain, or you know, Bitcoin, and then clarifies his remarks, saying look, technology underneath is here to stay. Thoughts on Blockchain? Obviously Financial Services is looking at it very closely, doing some really advanced stuff, what can you tell us? >> Yeah, I think there's no argument that it's definitely an innovation and a disruptive technology. I think that it's definitely in it's early stages across the board, so we're investing in it where we can, and trying to keep a close eye on it. We think that there's a lot of potential in a lot of different applications. >> As the NASDAQ transforms its business, how does that effect the sort of back-end analytics activity and infrastructure? >> The data is just growing, that's like the biggest challenge we have now. Data that used to be done in Excel, it's just no longer an option, so now in order to get the insights that we used to get just from having a couple people doing Excel transformations, you need to now invest in the infrastructure in the back-end, and so there's a lot that needs to go into building out an infrastructure to be able to ingest the data, and then also having the UI on the front-end, so that the business can actually view it the way they want. >> So skills wise, how's that affecting who you guys are hiring and training? And how's that transformation going? >> Michael: I'll let you go first. >> I think there's definitely, data analytics is a hot field. It's very new, there's definitely a big skills gap in administrative work and in the analytics side. Usually you have people could perform analytical functions just by being administrative or operational, and now it's really, we're investing in analysts, and making sure that we have the right people in place to be able to do these transformations, or pull the data and get the answers that we need from them. >> I mean from the tech side, I think what you're seeing is where we traditionally would just plug a developer in there, whether a Java developer, or an ETL developer, I think what you're seeing now is we're looking to bring more of a business minded data analyst to the tech side, right? So we're looking to bring a data engineer, so to speak, more to the tech side. So we're not looking to hire a traditional four year Computer Science degree, or Software Engineering degree, you're looking for a different breed of person, cause quite honestly because you're traditional Java dev. or C++ developer, they're not skilled or geared towards data. And when we've tried to plug that paradigm in, it just doesn't really work, so we're looking now to hiring more of an analyst, but someone who's a little bit more techie as well. They still need to have those skills to do some level of coding, and what we are finding is that skill gap is still very much... There's a gap there. There's a huge gap. And I think it's closing, but- >> And as you have to fund those for the new areas, I presume, like many companies in your business, you're trying to move away from the sort of undifferentiated low-level infrastructure deployment hassles, and the IT labor costs there, especially as we move to the cloud, presumably, so is that shift palpable? I mean, can you see that going on? >> Yeah, I think we made a lot of progress over the past couple years in doing that. We do more one button deployments, where the operation cost is a lot lower, a lot more automation around alerting, around when things go wrong, so there's not necessarily a human being sitting there watching a computer. We've invested a lot in that area to kind of reduce the costs, and make the experience better for our end user. And even from a development side, the cost of a new application is a lot less every time you have to do a release. The question is, how do you balance that with the regulations, and make sure you still have a good process in place. The idea of putting single button deployments in place is a great one, but you still have to balance that with making sure that what you push to productions been tested, well defined, and it meets the need, and you're not just arbitrarily throwing things out there. So we're still trying to hit that balance a little bit, it's more on the back-end side. The trading system is not quite there for obvious reasons, we're way more protective of what goes out there, then surrounding it a lot of the times, but I can see a future where, again going back to this idea of transforming our business, where you can stand up and do an exchange with the click of a button. I think that's a trend we're looking at. >> Rebecca: It's not too far in the future. >> No, I don't think it is. >> Last question, Pentaho report card. What are they doing really well? What do you want to see them do better? >> I think they continue to focus in the right areas, focusing more on the data processing side, and with the big data technologies, trying to fill that gap in the big data, and be the layer that you don't have to tie yourself to ike vCloud Air or MapR, you can kind of be a little bit more plug and play. I think they still need to do some improvements on there visualizations in their front-ends. I think they've been so much more focused on the data processing, that part of it, that the visualization's kind of lacked behind, so I think they need to put a little more focus into that, but all in all, they're an A, and we've been extremely happy with them as a software provider. >> Great. >> Shere: I think the visualization part is the part that allows people to understand that value being created at Pentaho. So I think being able to maybe improve a little bit on the visualization could go a far way. >> Michael, Shere, it's been so much fun having you on theCube, and having this conversation, keep that bull market coming please, do whatever you can. >> We'll do our best. >> I'm Rebecca Knight. We are here at PentahoWorld, sponsored by Hitachi Vantara. For Dave Vellante, we will have more from theCube in just a little bit.

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering NAB 2017. Brought to you by HGST. >> Hi, welcome back to theCUBE. We are live in Las Vegas, at the NAB Show 2017. I'm Lisa Martin, and I'm very excited to be joined by our next guest, Ted Harrington. Ted you are the executive partner at Independent Security Evaluators. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you for having me. >> Absolutely, we're excited to have you here. We're very excited also, because Ted has a very cool Twitter handle, @SecurityTed, super cool. So you are with Independent Security Evaluators. Tell us a little bit about what the ISE is. You were the first company to hack the iPhone and the Android, give our viewers a little bit of a backstory on ISE. >> Sure, so probably the simplest way to think about it is that we're the good guy hackers. Companies hire us to help them find security flaws and remediate those flaws in their technologies. And so we do that across a number of industries including heavy, prominent presence in the media and entertainment business. We also have a pretty strong focus on security research. Which is what you're referring to with the iPhone and the Android OS. We also, even the company came out of what is today known as car hacking. We found a way to build a weaponized software radio that we could start a Ford Explorer without the authentic key. >> Lisa: Wow. >> So we're tinkerers and problem solvers and we like to find issues before the bad guy does. >> And that's a great point about being the good kind of hackers, but also being able to highlight that these security challenges are real, across industries, and be able to I presume, influence or help companies, whether they're in media and entertainment or other industries. Understanding what is the type of cyber security protocol that we should be putting in place here to prevent the bad hackers from getting in. >> You hit the nail on the head. The core emphasis of what a security assessment with us entails, really is focusing on the technology problems, the deep technical issues. But at it's core, where all of these issues come from is the presence or lack thereof, of an effective mission. Many security, many companies when they think about security, are thinking of it as something that would be nice to have, not as a core business requirement. And changing that attitude is something that we spend a lot of our energy trying to influence. Because the companies that see security as the business enabler that it is, those companies are doing some tremendous things across industries today and they're really being the pioneers that are leading. >> One of the things that I was reading recently was what happened to La La Land, where screeners were leaked and fairly prolifically, and obviously that was a big massive box office hit, nearly a Best Picture winner, a few months ago. But I've also read reports where a leak like that can really negatively impact box office sales, like upwards to 20%. So if you look at a studio for example, and you were kind of saying, that maybe in general security is viewed as a nice to have. Is that a strong enough demonstration of the vulnerability of say a studio to make them go, "Okay, we need help here. "There are vulnerabilities we might not even be aware of." Are you seeing more uptake in the media and entertainment industry? Or is security still a, "It's a good idea "but we've got other things to focus on, "creating really, really cool content." >> The media and entertainment business, I think, does a fairly good job of prioritizing security. Now, of course, across the spectrum there are things that we would advocate doing better or in different ways, but the business driver that you mentioned, the idea of avoidance of box office decline. That's the core fundamental problem that we're trying to solve for the content owners and their vendors, because that window, the theatrical release, from a revenue perspective is the most important moment for, especially the blockbusters, La La Land, no one necessarily knew was going to be a blockbuster, before it came out, but when you look at things like, the next Star Wars, the next Avengers, the movies that are definitely going to make huge amounts of revenue, making sure that that movie makes it to the theater, without being released, that is the top priority for many organizations in this industry and we see a lot of organizations doing it well. >> That's good because the IP in that alone, for a company, the next Star Wars, the next whatever happens to be, the intellectual property that that studio owns, is probably nearly invaluable. So having the right strategy around that is key. Wanted to pick your brain, I know that you have started the IoT Village, and as we look at this proliferation of connected devices, the audience, we we're chatting earlier before we went live, the audience, you know, we're so empowered. We can make decisions, we can watch whatever we want whenever we want, from 35,000 feet in the air. We're binge watching, we're sharing on social. We've got multiple devices. Where that's concerned, and also you mentioned content, that's also not just a way that we're consuming content, that's a way that we're creating it. How, what is the IoT Village all about and is it down to the level of helping media and entertainment companies start providing security across the connected devices that are consuming and creating the content? >> We started IoT Village as a security research platform. Basically where, we invite other smart security researchers to help us focus on the problem of security issues in these connected devices that are being deployed. Everything from people's homes all the way to businesses and like you said even to the creation of content and consumption of content. The reason that we wanted to put some emphasis on this problem is that, that's an industry that I think, maybe by contrast, to some of the things we've talked about with media and entertainment, that still has a ways to go, in terms of how it's thinking about security. Security is not a priority in the development process for the majority of organizations in that industry. Now, there are definitely some that are doing it right, but they're more the minority. So what IoT Village does is helps us shine a spotlight on those issues. To connect the dot full circle, to what you were talking about, with media and entertainment, this is a conversation that I don't think, is happening loudly enough in this industry. Connected devices are being deployed for, a lot of the cases you said, consumption of content, for creation of content. Even for things that people don't necessarily equate with the process, like, the TVs that are used to screen the, whatever version is being reviewed right now, in the conference room. Those are often smart TVs with an internet connection and there's not necessarily an adequate control in place around how to think about the security implication of that. Fundamentally, connected devices expand the attack surface, and that's the way the organizations need to think about it. Not to say that they should not deploy those devices, but that they need to adequately consider that in the security model. >> Absolutely, and how does an organization get control over that, over those devices? >> Well, like any technology that's developed by a third party, one who procures that technology, can only do so much. You can't actually get into the source code, or whatever, unless that organization wants you to, but there definitely are things that organizations can do in a deployment model, to mitigate risk. So, those would be things like ensuring you have proper segmentation, where the highest risk types of devices are quarantined away from areas where the biggest, most impactful compromise could potentially exist. To absolutely implement a threat model, which is an exercise through which an organization identifies what you're trying to protect, who you're trying to protect against and how those adversaries will deploy their campaigns. >> Question for you about the devices now that are popping up in our homes, right, the Google Home, the Amazon Echo, as an owner of those, there's very little control, right? That an owner or a user has over those devices, any recommendations or insight into what can be done on the vendor side to, those devices listening all the time, right, that's their job, any insight there into recommendations that can be taken to help make those a bit more secure? >> So for the person who purchases and deploys that device, there are a handful of things you can do. First and foremost, change the default password. Seems like I should not have to say that, yeah. >> Yeah >> Change it from admin password. >> Yeah. >> But you'd be surprised how few people actually change the default password, and the default password is effectively publicly available information. There was a very significant distributed denial of service attack that happened in October, that basically took the internet offline for a few hours. >> Yes. >> And that was completely mobilizing connected devices that had not changed the default password. Attackers took them all over and then used those in the attack. So, change the default password. Check for updates to what extent that you can, and really think about whether or not you might need the connectivity of a certain device. So, for example, we talked about a moment ago, the smart TV. There are a lot of people out there, who buy a TV, not because they need the internet connectivity to it, but because they want to consume content. If they're not going to use that connectivity, turn it off. Effectively, all that it's doing if you're not using it, is introducing new ways to be attacked. >> So there's some simple remedies that, either people or industries can take for their internet of things or connected devices to be a little bit more secure? >> Yes, however, the real crux of the solution, definitely relies on those who manufacture the devices. So, manufacturers of connected devices need to do things like adopt an adversarial mindset. Think about how someone will attack this system. They need to think about things like, how are you going to update this system over time, especially given the fact that the average consumer of this device, probably is not technical, and probably will not proactively go on to be dealing with updates. They want to set it and forget it. So thinking about those things from that perspective, adhering to principals of secure design, going through security assessment, really looking at your system in terms of how it can be broken, that's how you build it to be resilient against attack. >> Wanted to ask you one final question about laws and regulations, what are you thoughts on that? Is that something that can either help a film studio protect their IP, all the way down to helping those of us that have at home connected devices? Laws, regulations, good, bad, indifferent, what are your thoughts? >> I'm very strongly not a proponent of regulation as a security measure. Laws and regulations, what winds up happening, they take too long to enact. The adversary has already evolved away from whatever the control is. They're usually very riddled with compromise, based on all the stakeholders who helped develop this law. They're usually developed by people who are not technically savvy. You know, lawmakers are not security analysts, though they rely on security analysts, it's still in the delivery of the execution, it doesn't really manifest itself effectively. That said, I recognize that in a lot of ways, that's just the way the world will move. Many organizations should anticipate that some sort of regulatory body at some point, is going to require compliance with some sort of law and while I don't think that it's a great solution to solve the problem, it's at least a start, because it does get those who will not invest in security, to at least start investing in security. So it lowers the minimum bar, it does not raise the highest bar. >> Very interesting insight, and one more question if I can squeak it in, and that is, you mention that media and entertainment is pretty good with respect to security, for those industries where it's still a nice to have, do you think it's going to take something like another DDoS attack, or something else to, something big that is quite, negatively impactful, to get some of those industries to go, "You know what, "this is no longer a nice to have. "This is a fundamental element that "we need to culturally adopt." Do you think it's going to be something almost catastrophic, that's going to drive that change? >> Most likely, but it won't be just the big issue. It will be whatever the big issue is combined with an individual, or collection of individuals with the political capital to drive for that pioneering change. Industries don't typically change on their own. They change because people make them change. >> Good point, well, Ted Harrington, thank you so much for spending time with us today. If you're not following Ted on Twitter, @SecurityTed, follow him, from Independent Security Evaluators. Thank you so much for sharing your insights. Have a great rest of the NAB Show. >> Thank you for having me. >> And with that said, you've been watching theCUBE live from NAB in Las Vegas. I'm Lisa Martin, stick around, we'll be right back. (light techno music)