>>Hello, I'm John Frey with the queue here for cube conversation with Devon Reed, senior director of apex offer product mentioned Dell technologies. They have a great to see you. Congratulations on apex and the momentum and the big news. >>Yeah. Thank you for having me here, John. It's a, it's a pleasure to be here with you and I can't wait to talk to you about the stuff. >>So we chatted last Dell technologies world about apex in great length. Um, first given update on what's the new news and to where's it come from since Dell tech DEC world. What's, what's the big update on the product and the news you're launching today. >>Yeah, so it's been a, it's been a fantastic journey here, John. And, um, you know, since Dell technologies world, we've learned a ton from our customers and the reception has been extremely positive. We're seeing a ton of interest from our customers. We're building demand, um, and we're learning a lot, but I think if we boil it down to what we're, we're really learning here is that customers are living in a cloud first world. And what that means is that customers want to move, uh, you know, to the public cloud because the public cloud brings simplicity, agility, the ability to pay for only what they use and they don't need to manage their infrastructure. However, what we're hearing from our customers as well is that they're, um, a little hesitant to move all of their workloads to the public cloud, because there are certain performance requirements, latency requirements, and security requirements that are, uh, still, um, held from on-prem infrastructure vendors. And that's, that's the beauty of apex to bring that the, the simplicity of the public cloud and the security and the performance of the private cloud in one with it. >>I want to get your thoughts real quick before I move on to the news, because this comes up a lot in conversations. In fact, I just had a conversation this morning on camera and also off-camera around virtualization of data, right? So, and how on premises? The bare metal growth is there, right? So you starting to see from a performance standpoint, when you security, we get that. There's not a lot of on premises reasons why to be on premises for the security reason, but performance, you brought that up. Talk more about that real quick, because I think this is really becoming quite more traction than people thought there's a performance gain. On-premise with some of the new tech, what's your reaction to that? >>Yeah, exactly. I think that's a, it's a great call out John. And especially as you get into some of these new applications where the computation needs to be directly next to, uh, the data in which is processing latency and performance is extremely important. We hear that day in and day out from our customers. And that's why it's really, it's really important to focus on not only on public cloud environments, but on-premise infrastructure. And that's what apex really, really helps customers, um, bridge that bridge, that gap. >>And for the folks watching there's a great interview, search his name, Devon's name, and look at last year's announcement. We covered it in detail with apex. So some great content there. Go check that out. I got to ask about the news. You had some new announcements at VMworld earlier today. What can you tell us about the news? >>Yeah, yeah, we did. John. This is, this is an amazing year for Dell at VM world in general. Um, there's a ton of announcements that have come out with collaboration with VMware and Dell, but for apex specifically. And that's what I'm here to talk to you about is that we're introducing a new offer to the apex portfolio. And this offer, we call apex cloud services with VMware cloud. And what this really is, is it's a full infrastructure as a service stack and it's utilizing Dell's, uh, hyper-converged infrastructure. So it's integrated storage, networking compute, and we combine that with, um, the virtualization stack from, uh, VMware virtualization stack and the services. It's a solution that's managed by Dell, it's designed for six nines of availability. And again, going back to what customers are asking for, it allows customers, the performance, the security, and it also provides those consistent operations across their multi-cloud environments. >>What's the driver behind the customer requirements than this. Is there a specific use case that jumps out off the page on, on the managed service? Could you share why the traction? >>Yeah. You know, um, this space is growing really rapidly and it's the new space. And as we talk to more and more customers, we learned there's a ton of different use cases, a ton of different deployments that are really coming to the forefront. But if I really boil it down, there are a few that are kind of rising to the top year. And I think first and foremost, we see a lot of deployments in VDI and really the driver behind that is some of those, those environments are complex. And what the customers are trying to do is really offload those it administrative tasks and have companies like Dell manager. And that's what we're doing for them. Another one is, um, you know, really around that latency, latency and security, really trying to drive applications to not suffer from, you know, that hate latency and security kind of benefits. >>Now, um, what we've seen is we have a lot of interest from very large enterprises that actually want to build and modernize their data centers. So they're either consolidating their data centers or they're trying to move to a fully automated, uh, hybrid cloud situation, right. And I'm talking very large deployments of, uh, VMware based, um, private cloud, uh, capabilities. And I say one other place that we're seeing a lot of interest in these sort of capabilities is large distributed kind of edge use cases. So think, um, you know, think use cases where you have, um, hundreds of remote office locations or a thousands of retail locations that is very difficult for customers to manage. And we take that burden away from our customers. >>Uh, thanks for laying out the customer scenarios and the use case. Good stuff I got to ask you about the solution now appears that it was jointly developed with VMware. Is that right? And if so, can you tell me more about that? >>Yeah, yeah, exactly. John, this is, this is amazing. The amount of collaboration that has gone into this solution with VMware is incredible and really it's based on customer feedback. And we saw, you know, based on this feedback, we've saw a real need to basically take the best of VMware software and their services capabilities, and our, you know, Dell's world-leading infrastructure capabilities and really combine it with the simplicity and agility that apex apex provides. So we've been working with VMware very tightly, uh, over the past year and more to really develop the solution. It's been a great journey, been spending a ton of time with the VMware team building this and, um, you know, customers really love what VMware cloud enables and customers love apex. So it's a really powerful combo and we think it's, it's really the next, uh, kind of rocket ship for, you know, the combined companies here. Yeah. >>I think the VDI piece and these use cases, you mentioned only get more relevant and complex at the same time with the whole shifting in the working environments, you know, the work from home, the future of work, you know, you have the blurring of the lines between private, you know, home versus corporate network. It's like, I mean, we thought it was hard before it's going to get even more complicated. So the pressure's on to abstract away the complexity. So, so totally relevant. Yeah. >>And demand for these kinds of solutions we're seeing, you know, the interest is, is doubling. Uh, it seems like almost every six months, you know, there's a lot more interest, especially as we progress through this pandemic and the, and uh, this environment that we're living in you. So, okay. >>So I got to ask you going forward again. Great progress from our last time we chatted at Dell technology worlds last year, um, 2021, um, what's ahead for Dell and the VMware partnership. Tell us more, how does that look? Um, extending is what's the trajectory look like, and you share any specifics, what can we expect? What's the headroom? What should customers expect? >>Yeah, yeah. You know, we get that question a lot and really, um, you know, nothing is really, although we are going to be separating as, as different entities, you know, the collaboration and the, the level of, um, joint development that we have between the two companies, uh, couldn't be stronger now. And we don't, we do not expect that to change. And we're just getting started on this thing and there's a lot more to come for sure. >>What's the biggest thing that you're, you're excited about. Obviously apex has been a good, it's a trajectory. The progress has been great. The market's in your favor, what's, what's exciting for you right now. Where do you see the action? Um, you know, where's, where's the fun for you in this what's that what's, uh, what's your take? >>You know, it always, for me, the fun always comes down to customers and understanding what the customers want, understanding what the solution, where the solution works, where the solution doesn't work, really working with our customers to really understand their problems and really try to work. So that's where I, I get my energy, uh, in this whole thing and to see the, see the pipeline grow and the sales coming in, that's just, it's really exciting for me, you know, as we're kind of embarking on this new, as a service, uh, world for the, for the multicloud world, it's, it's just, it's fantastic, John, >>You know, the one-click buy as you go consumption-based, this is the trend and infrastructure as code, which is a cloud ethos, and you may not have any on premises with security and now performance, it seems like we're seeing the second wave of virtualization kick in on premises where now that you're in a cloud operating model from storage compute, networking, kind of almost a reboot, almost a reset or an extension or a real-life, it seems like it's another second life of, of, of, of, of innovation. What's your reaction to that? >>Yeah. I, I definitely agree with you, John, and, you know, from a, from a vision perspective, we're just, we're just starting to, uh, you know, we're just starting out there and we, you know, if we think about the power, uh, in the breadth of the portfolio that Dell has, it is unmatched in the industry. So first and foremost, you know, there's a lot more from a, from a solution perspective that we can bring to the floor. So I think that's, that's really exciting. I like the position that we have there and in terms of collaboration with VMware, we're just getting started there too. And, uh, I spend, uh, almost a half of my day with VMware employees, which is incredible amount of collaboration. And there's so much more that we've talked about in our roadmap, uh, to really build out this vision when you start thinking about not just virtualization, but you start to talk about, um, you know, these, these new operating environments, including Kubernetes and Tansu capabilities. And, um, you know, how do you, how do you hit different, uh, use cases with, um, not only hyper converged and hyper-converged infrastructure, but different types of infrastructure as well. And then you start to span, uh, not only the prem, but the co-location facilities and, and the edge, and you bring this all together under the apex console. And I like our future >>Console based provisioning, easy, uh, congratulations on the big news apex cloud services with VMware cloud, um, for the folks watching, that's going to come in and maybe adopt the solution, the managed service, what can they expect from Dell? >>Uh, what you can expect is a very simple experience. So, uh, everything starts and ends with what we call our apex console. So a customer from the time they, they want to learn about our services to, um, you know, getting quotes on them, to actually transacting the, uh, the service, um, to operating the infrastructure from that. And then we provide a full set of, uh, services under the cover where a customer doesn't need to worry about the actual infrastructure management. And we provide customer success managers for every account. So we, we are there with you, uh, along every step of the journey to make this as seamless and easy as possible. So it's a fantastic, uh, experience for our customers. And that's, that's one of the things that they really love about the apex is that, um, you know, kind of white glove service that we're providing >>Devin. Great to see you, Devin Marine, senior director of Dell apex offer product management. He's only getting the product to see and congratulatory success, apex cloud services with VMware clouds, the big news here at VMworld with Dell technologies, I'm John furrier cube conversation, breaking it down and bringing the news to you. Thanks for watching.

>>Mhm Yes. >>Hello and welcome back to the cubes coverage of Del Tech World Virtual. I'm john for a host of the cube. We've got a great two guests here talking about a new apex brand and products Allison Langdon, Senior Manager, product marketing at Dell and David Reed senior Director of Product Management. Dell all around the apex to CUBA alumni's great to see you remotely. Soon to be in person. It's right around the corner but great to see you. >>Hey, thanks for having me and us. >>So I wish >>we were in person. >>We missed the Deltek Worlds amazing event. Um we're virtual this year but all great goodness is here but great big announcement still go on. The Apex Brandon portfolio is coming together the cloud and as a service, everything is happening. You got the new apex data storage service take us through what what is the new service? Why? >>Sure. So I can start um you know, we've been seeing this this shift towards an as a service model, you know I. T. Has always struggled with complexities associated with under and over provisioning capital budget constraints, lengthy and complex to refresh cycles. So you know the events over this past year and our new normal is really accelerated these you know challenges and it made them even more manageable. You know organizations need to become really agile and um they don't want to invest make big upfront investments in infrastructure when they're having such a hard time forecasting there needs you know the new levels of unpredictability that's been accelerating this you know adoption of as of service. So this is why we're introducing apex data storage services essentially were radically simplifying how customers can acquire and manage their storage resources. So data storage services is going to be the first as a service offering in our apex portfolio. So it's going to provide an on crown portfolio of scalable and elastic storage resources that are designed for affects treatment. It's all going to be anchored in our apex console. So it's gonna be a seamless self service experience where you just have a few key inputs, your data service, your performance tier, you're looking for your commitment term, your base capacity, for example and then all the infrastructure is owned and maintained by us built on our Industry leading Technology. So really delivering a super simple self service as a service experience, >>You know, when Jeff Clark was first talking about this as a service as it should be, you know, introducing the project, Apex Devon, I was kind of okay, this is kind of what we heard when we were last in person in 2019. The end to end l cloud, hybrid, cloud operating model, this is kind of what we're talking about here. What's something that covers? What's what's what is this data services? How does that vector into that? Because you know data control planes are being talked about a lot. The use of data in A I. And A II. Operations impacts I. T. And cloud scale. So hybrids now the operating model for the enterprise. >>Yeah. Yeah definitely. And it's this is really only where we're starting and we're going to be starting on a set of apex data storage services. Um so if I step back a little bit and talk a little bit about what apex data storage services are, I'd like to draw a little bit of a contrast to how customers procure their equipment today. So a customer typically today says I need some storage I need some mid range storage. I need for example a power store 5000 and then they work with the sales representative and says I need 24 1.92 terabyte drives. They need certain connectivity and then we present a quote to them with a whole bunch of line items with a lot of different prices and then the customer needs purchased that year, purchased that upfront and then uh, the only asset and then they managed the asset. So they're taking the risk. They need to plan for that capacity. And what we're doing is we're radically flipping that model. Uh, and what we're, what we're doing here is we're just driving to an outcome. So customers, they don't want to take that risk. They just want to drive to their business outcomes and they want to manage their applications. So what they have to do in this model is just pick, hey, I want storage services, I want some block services, I want a certain performance level and I learned a certain capacity and I want a commitment level. And what we do is we basically create a rate for them And we've optimized a lot of our processes on the back end to be able to, once that order has booked, we target a very rapid time of 14 days from the time the order is dropped until the customer can actually start operating on that here. From the, the time is dropped to the time that they can produce in their first volume Is 14 days. And really all they have to do is operate the year and we manage everything everything for them that you know, from capacity management to change management to software, life cycles, patching and you and things like that. And now jOHN I want to address your question about the hybrid world. It's absolutely designed for a hybrid world. So in our first release will be offering this on customer premises. And we're also introducing announcing a relationship we have with the data center provider of Equinox, which is the largest co location provider in the world. And what will be able to do is provide the subscription service of this as a service, not only customer on customer premises but in near cloud environments, in a co location facility. And we also have software assets that will extend into this environment, all driven by a central pain of unified experience. >>That's awesome. The hybrid cloud, It's gotta have that table stakes now. So, good, good plug there. Thanks Call out Allison, I gotta ask you on the customer side, what's the drivers for the apex data storage service? What was the key things that there you're hearing, why this is important to them? Uh, and what is the value proposition? >>Right, Great question. So I touched on a little bit of that upfront, but it's, you know, essentially what we what we do with this offering is take it out of the infrastructure business so that they can focus on more value added activities, focusing on customer satisfaction. Um You know, because we're maintaining we're managing and maintaining all the infrastructure for them. You know, some of the key pain points are just, you know, the overhead associated with maintaining and managing that infrastructure. But there's also the financial aspect as well. These services are designed for affects treatment, so you're not having to make that big initial Capex expense, um you're really able to align your expenses with actual usage versus anticipated usage. So it eliminates that, you know, cycle of over and under provisioning, which either results in, you know, over provisions waste or under provisions risk. We essentially, you know, streamlined all of those processes. So the customer just has to worry about operating the, operating their storage and it takes a lot of that worry off of them and they're able to just pay for what they use, elastically scale of resources up and down. So it's essentially really simplified and more predictable. >>Page has always been one of those things where hey, I'll pay when I need it. I gotta ask you on the differentiation side. This is comes up all the time. How do you guys different from alternatives? How do you differentiate going forward? How do you guys be successful? What's the, what's the strategy? What's the, what's the focus? >>Yeah. So I'll take the, I'll take a couple of points and then I'll pass it over to you Alison if you don't >>mind. Um, >>so first and foremost, I'm asked this a lot. So what does Dell bring to the table in this whole little apex? And as a service? First and foremost, Del is the leading infrastructure provider for all of I. T. On premise. We have the enterprise infrastructure re leading across just about every major category of infrastructure. So first and foremost we have that. We also have the scale of the reach, not only in our enterprise relationships through our partner community. So that is one that is one huge advantage that we have. One thing that we're and we talked about this model. Um the level of management that we provide for our customers is second to none with this solution. So we provide um we provide all of the the difficult management tasks from end end that a customer that we repeatedly hear from our customers that they don't want to be dealing with anymore. And we're going to be able to do that at scale for our customers. And I know there's a couple more points, so I'd like to I'll pass it on to Alison and she can she can address a couple more points there. >>Yeah, sure. I mean obviously Devin makes a great point as being an industry leader and just the breadth of our portfolio in general, beyond just storage that we can essentially deliver as a service, but no, with our initial flagship storage as a service offering. Um, so with apex data storage services, you know, I talked a little bit about, you know, the pay as you go, pay as you know, pay for what you use. You know, essentially the way this works is, you know, there's an initial based commitment of capacity that the customer commits to and then they're able to elastically scale up and down above that base and only pay for what they use. One of the differentiators were bringing to the table is that, you know, in addition to that base and that, you know, the on demand space if you will, that that goes above that we're charging a single rate. So it's really a simplified and transparent billing process. So you're not getting any over ridge penalties or fees for going into that on demand. It's essentially a single rate based on your commitment and you know, as much as you scale up and down, you're gonna you're gonna stay within one single rate. So no surprise average penalties. So that's definitely something that that differentiates us. And the customers also have the ability to raise that based commitment at any point. Co terminus lee in their contract. So if they're seeing like a strong growth trajectory or anticipating a more, you know, a big burst in usage for some data intensive type workloads. You know, we can add that can raise that floor commitment resulting in a lower rate but still a single rate for both based on demand. >>Well certainly data storage and moving data around, having it in the edge to the core to whatever is critical. And I think I think that's a great service. The question I want to ask you guys next to addresses. Give us an update on the apex brand and portfolio overall. How does this fit in? How is it shaping out? Can just take a minute to explain kind of where it is right now and what's available, how it was the strategy and what's coming? >>Sure. So I can talk a little bit about what's available when we're talking about today and then maybe devon if you can touch a little bit on the on the strategy and going forward. Um But what we've announced today is you at Del Tech World is the apex brand, the apex portfolio, which as I mentioned, it's our strategy for as a service and cloud. So in addition to our data storage services offering that we've been focused on today, um which is part of our infrastructure services, we're also introducing our cloud services as well as some more customizable services. So from a cloud services perspective, we're also going to be talking about our apex private cloud and apex hybrid cloud offerings. And then of course the apex console is really what brings all of these pieces together. It's that single self service experience to manage all of your as a service resources from a single place, David, I don't know if you want to take it. >>So what I would, what I would like to add is a little bit more color on the customized services. So if you look at apex at a high level um it's really how we're transforming the way we do business with our partners and customers and the way we deliver products and offers to our our partners and customers. And within the apex umbrella there's really two segments of customers that we see. One, there is still a segment of customers that want some technology control. They want to build their they want to build their clouds, they want to build their infrastructure and that's where really the apex custom comes into it. And we have a very large business in our custom business today with Dell technologies on demand with flex on demand and data center utility and those will be represented to be apex flex on demand, apex data center utility, um you know, that's what we're announcing here. And then the second portion is really this apex turnkey offer where customers don't care to manage it, they want to just consume, they want to operate their gear. And that's where a lot of the innovation, a lot of the a lot of the strategy that we're talking about here with the hybrid cloud service, the product cloud service, apex data storage services. So we're building out a set of world class infrastructure services that will then be able to wrap our leading infrastructure utilities around data protection, security, migration, compliance etcetera. And then build a set of horizontal and vertical solutions on top of this infrastructure to provide uh paramount uh value to our >>awesome Alice. I gotta ask you because this is always the case right. There's always one or two features that jump out the product, everything as a service clearly aligns with the market macro conditions in the marketplace and the evolution of the architecture in all businesses. That's clear, there's no debate on that. You guys got that nailed. What's the, what's the key thing if you had to kind of boil out the one thing that people are gravitating towards on the data storage service because um, everyone kinda is going here, right? So what if you get people that are watching it are learning what's popping out as the key product feature here or a few things that jump out. >>Sure. So, I mean really at the core, it's all about simplicity. Um, it's in terms of the console itself, which we've talked about it, you know, you have your infrastructure resources, your storage, your cloud services and it's all, it's just so simple. It's just, it's a matter of a few simple clicks and inputs that are pretty intuitive to meet your needs. It's the fact that its outcome based, you know, we're not focused on delivering a product, it's really truly delivering an outcome and a service to meet the customer's needs. So it's a whole new way of you know approaching the market and talking to our customers and making it intuitive and simple and seamless and really, you know, taking so much of the complexity off of the table for them. Um So it's the simplicity of the console, it's the being able to transition to more op ex model um from a financial aspect is huge and then you know aligning your expenses, you know with your actual versus and you know anticipated usage, so being able to manage that unpredictability, so that's necessary talking about a specific feature but really how we're driving towards really focusing on the customer needs. >>Now the business values right there, it's all about the outcome and you know, we're about getting charged on this variable, you know, over age on some service David. How about under the hood? If I look at the engine of this, how it fits into the kind of product architecture, you look at the product management, you're building the product and the engineers are cranking away what's the, what's the gear, what gears look like? What's the machinery look like under the hood? What's the cool tech, if any, um, you would share, if you can share. >>Yeah, it's interesting that you asked that, john and it's, it's really interesting that we got probably what, 12 minutes into this interview and we didn't even talk about a product, not one single product and that is really by design here. We're really, we're really selling the service. We're selling an offer. The product is the service, the service is the product and it's really about selling those outcomes. But then at the end of the day since we're talking talking shop here um we are introducing block services and that's powered by our new award winning power store mid range product and our file services are going to be powered by our um our award winning power scale and Ice alone systems as well. So we'll be interested you know introducing block and file services and we'll be extending that to object object services and data storage services. Uh >>huh, awesome. You know Alison and Devon I was talking to a friend we're running weren't on camera with the camera was turned on but we're just riffing about all the coolness around devops to have sex cops, how I. T. S go into large scale cloud apps and we're talking about all that and we were both kind of coming to the same conclusion that the next generation on top of all this automation is the excess of service, everything is a service. Because if you go that next level, that's where it is. Because the outcomes, the outcome is the services and that's underpinned by automation ai ops all the other stuff that's kind of hardened underneath still enables it. And you guys are already there. So congratulations. That's really cool reaction to that. That concept of automation powers X as a service. >>Yeah, I'll take that one, john. So, um while I talked only about playing storage technologies that power this there is a phenomenal amount of investment in um uh work and thought going into building out the underlying infrastructure and operations behind this because we need to provide um the operations and management of this infrastructure services, not only for storage but for compute and solutions and develops environment at scale. And it's crucial that we, we build out that infrastructure, that automation, that machine learning AI offers to really support this. So yeah, you're absolutely right. That is fundamental to getting this model. Uh nailed >>Alison. You're feeling pretty good about the product and the service. Now everything is a service that's your wheelhouse. It's happening. >>Yeah, here we are. We've got, we've got apex portfolio has arrived. So yeah, feeling good. Um, definitely excited. >>He was bright. Congratulations Allison David, thanks for coming on the Cuban, sharing the updates on the apex new data storage services, the new portfolio, the directionally correct action of everything as a service and all the automation that goes on the, that's really kind of a game changer. Thanks so much for sharing on the CUBA. Really appreciate it. Thanks for coming on. >>Thanks a lot, john, >>thank you. Okay. >>Del Tech world cube coverage continues. I'm john Kerry, the host. Thanks for watching. Yeah. Mhm.

>>mhm Yes. Mhm. Mhm. >>Hey, welcome to the cubes coverage of Dell technologies world, the digital event experience. I'm your host lisa martin. I have alumni back with me and a new guest joining us. David Reed is back the Senior director of product management at Dell Technologies Devon welcome back to the cube. >>Hi there. Hi there, lisa. Having thanks for having me back. It's great to be here. >>Yeah, Virtual or not. It's great and some GT metal joins us the senior director of cloud product marketing at Dell Technologies. Some give me it's great to have you on the program. >>Thank you. Happy to be here lisa. >>So we're gonna be talking about Apex. This was a big announcement at Dell Technologies really 2020 also a digital experience just about six months or so ago talking about the future of dull and transitioning its platform to the as a service model that we want to dig into that, see what's going on there. So I'm doing the start us off embracing service rather the as a service model. That was a huge transition, huge step bold for Dell for its future from your lens, What does it mean? What's going on and with regards to the cloud, talk to me about some of the impacts? >>Yeah, no, it has it has been a multi year journey for us and uh it's really exciting to be part of this journey. We have done a lot of work to establish modern commerce and apex models. Um, you know, it really plays to our strength. We have led the infrastructure space for a number of years. So I really think with as a service, what we are doing is doing what we do really well but delivering more value to our customers at a much faster clip. So it puts us in a great position to continue to be that technology partner that our customers come to rely on and and frankly count us uh you know, as their true essential partners for their success. >>Devon talk to me about what it takes to engineer solutions like this. We mentioned this is a big big transformative strategic direction, directional shift. But how does this as a service model with apex differ from traditional models of infrastructure solutions that are in the data center? >>Yeah sure lisa. So I think at a very high level it differs a lot. And if I think about three major differences from how we build our traditional Capex business and our technology versus what we're doing it as a service. The first thing that comes to my mind is that we're trying to build outcomes for customers and what that really means. If you look back to how we sell infrastructure gear for the longest time, a customer would basically have to pick the technology, uh, price the technology, They would get a quote with a lot of different line items on it, with different pricing and then they would purchase the product outright and then they would have to manage that product themselves. And what we're really trying to do here is go to an outcome based model where the customer doesn't need to focus on the technology. They just need to focus on the business outcome that they're really getting in. The case that we're talking about here today is really around our apex cloud services. So they just have to choose whether they're getting a hybrid cloud service or a private cloud service and then pick their instances and then we, we ship them, uh, infrastructure right to their door. And that's another thing that we've had to do is we've had to change our processes because we need to make sure that these services are up and ready to be used in a very short amount of time. So we're targeting two weeks from the time that the order is dropped until the time that they can actually start operating on the gear um to shrink that time to value and really improve that uh that value statement for them. And then the third is that we really have to really partner with our customers on security and trust because we're managing this infrastructure for them as opposed to just uh sending the infrastructure on prem and having the customer deal with it all. So we we need to be a trusted partner uh in all of these infrastructure services. So there's a lot of a lot of differences in the way we engineer here, >>outcomes time to value and security. I want to pivot on that security front for second. We've been talking about it for a long time since you've talked to me as the senior director of product marketing. Where are your customers with respect to security comfort, confidence in apex and as a service? >>Yeah. No, I'm glad you asked that question lisa In fact, that is by far what we are seeing from a customer eagerness to learn perspective. We are seeing a lot of customers that are very cautious and we and our measured about their compliance needs. They are really thinking about, hey, how do I meet? How do I continue to deliver on my, on my business outcomes but also be compliant with the regulations that I'm responsible for. And, and we are seeing, um, you know, uh, like customers like as public cloud became a mainstream thing. A lot of customers moved to public cloud but quickly realized that it wasn't end all be all. And they had to think about their workloads differently. They have to think about the risk around some of their critical workloads differently. And this is where apex Hybrid cloud and apex private cloud are really helping them meet those compliance and regulatory needs for their business. And so with, with these offers in market, that's been a big part of most of our customer conversations that we are seeing today. >>Did you see any acceleration? You know, as we've all experienced a very disrupted market in the last 13 plus months, we saw a huge acceleration in digital transformation, out of necessity businesses that we're pivoting multiple times to try to survive and now thrive as this hopefully becomes a post pandemic world. So dana just question for you talk to me about some of the things that you saw in the market with respect to customers, maybe certain industries that really leaned heavily on this? >>Yeah, like within, within a day or two, most businesses had to pivot and and most of their workforce was trying to access their company information And company data from, from, you know, which was not part of what they have planned for. They probably thought about it, but they didn't have plans in place and so over the last 12 plus months I think what, what the customers have found themselves is the digital transformation became real for them and these solutions are no longer just an idea but are really getting to a place where they are starting to assess which workloads do I really use the private cloud and hybrid cloud environments for so that I continue to meet my needs. I continue to have the right performance that I'm looking for And and frankly enable my workforce to continue to be productive while they are in this um in this mode of working remotely um quite a bit. So if anything, the last 12 months we've seen heightened interest in these solutions because it's become real as opposed to an idea >>right, that reality set in overnight for so many organizations devon I want to get to you, you know, one of the things that we saw this, we talked about the rapid adoption of cloud um SAs applications like zoom being critical to personal life. Professional life, talk to me about the explosion of what we're seeing at the edge and what's going on in the data center and where Dell Technologies sees prime opportunity. >>Yeah, I mean, the the edge is definitely what we see as the next battleground for the infrastructure. So if you think about what's really happening, there are millions and millions of sensors and applications that are distributed throughout uh you know, throughout the world and throughout non data center applications especially at the edge and the far edge in the near edge. And there's large, large volumes of data being created that need to be processed, analyzed and then basically brought back into premises to make actionable insights onto it and what we've done. Um uh we're exciting too excited to announce that we have a manufacturing edge solution partnering with parametric technologies and leveraging our apex private cloud to offer a private cloud solution for manufacturing edge solution. So it's extremely important to us. >>That's huge as we have all seen and felt during the last year. The man, the challenges that the manufacturing industry has faced has been problematic globally. Talk to me more about that, devon and also the impetus for starting there with the pandemic, an impetus to go focus on manufacturing. I actually wanted >>to rewind the tape here a little bit and talk about the impact of the global pandemic on this as a service. Prior to the prior to the pandemic was definitely something in high demand, but as we started to progress through this global pandemic, uh it just started to explode and really you had a spectrum of customers on that cloud that transformation journey from a cloud perspective and it really started to accelerate and every time we started we kept looking at you know what what are people predicting for adoption of as a service? And every few months it was getting more bullish and more bullish. And it was really um not only from a cost savings perspective, but definitely the global pandemic has been driving a lot of this demand and we see it, we see it in some of our use cases from our customers, not any particular customer in particular but we do have a lot of customers that are doing that digital transformation to the work from home and they're finding they need that flexibility not only on prem for their desktops but off prem for their desktops as well. So they need a truly hybrid cloud solution and uh our apex hybrid cloud services are perfect for those types of use cases. So we're definitely seeing acceleration in this space. >>Yeah a lot of things. Very good. The one thing that I would at least you know um Devin talked about the manufacturing solution. Think of it as it's a it's a start of a journey because that same scenario of you know like we talked about manufacturing and their scenarios where they need that support on the edge and being able to connect to the private cloud, that same scenario or that similar scenario exists for other industries as well, whether you think about retail or healthcare, um you know, so that same model of building these edge solutions that connect into a cloud environment is something that Dell will continue to invest in manufacturing is the place where we are starting with >>Got it. You bring up a great point about all the other industries that have been so dramatically affected and continue to be, even though there's been multiple pivots surviving, surviving. Again, pivoting again, I want to talk to us about the customer conversations, you talked about the time to value, devon being really quick, we're talking about from order to in production in a couple of weeks, but I want to talk about how you in that time, in conversations with customers, help them identify which workloads are best suited for Apec solutions. Talk to me a little bit about devon starting with you. >>Yeah, so first and foremost, um 14 days is just where we're starting And um 14 days as a starting point and we will continue to shrink that over time we have aspirations to get too much lower that lower than that for on premises. We also announced a partnership with equinox today where we will be um providing these services not only on prem in the edge, but also in in near cloud facilities, in co location facilities and at that point we can get to near zero instant time to value from that perspective. So we will be increasing the, you know, the lowering the time to value for our customers for those types of solutions. Um so that's just yeah, the 14 days, just a starting point and the follow up to the second part of the question lisa, can you remind me please? >>Oh just how are you helping customers with their decisions on workloads? Which workloads are best suited for this or that hesitancy has been has not changed. Talk to me about this customer conversations. >>Yeah I think you know we're talking to a bunch of analysts today and it really kind of varies. People are asking like are there any particular customer types of industry verticals that are really and it's really broad based in terms of really helping customers, you know what workloads really are well suited. We have a bunch of tools and our apex console from a sizing perspective workload perspective that not only help our sales, our sales teams but also customers really decide which of the best places to uh to put these particular workloads and help them size their infrastructure for these solutions. >>Yeah. The one thing that I would add lisa to that is it really comes down to the every customer is unique and different and their tolerance for risk and and their objectives is different. And so I really believe, you know, there is a continuum and you will see customers lie across it where customers that are willing because a lot of customers jumped right into public cloud when public cloud was the big phenomenon. But they realized they were being risk. They were okay with taking on the risks that they did, but now that they have a little more um, you know, ground beneath them and and have some experiences, they are able to sort of write size, how they think about public cloud relative to the the hybrid cloud environment and and be able to think about which workloads are they willing to take the risks on and which which workloads? They're not willing to take the risks on. I come back to that compliance and regulatory risk is a big risk that customers are weighing it against. And and so I think those are those are the variables that the customers will think through as they think about um, investing in in a hybrid cloud environment is really thinking about how much I am I willing to take the risk on a particular workload and how much am I willing to give up the control by putting it in a public cloud environment? Those are the decisions that customers will make as they think about their rock loans, >>right, big decisions And to your point, every customer obviously there is a unique experience where we're almost out of time but devon I wanted to go to you and talk about from a good market perspective. So you you talked about the new culo agreement with Equinox. Congratulations on that giving customers choice here, give me just give the customers one idea where can they go to start this discussion with you guys? >>The first and best place to go to start having this discussion and start learning about Apex is our apex console. So our apex console will be the end and unified user experience that a customer will interact with these services. And from the time where a customer just wants to start kicking around the idea of an apex service, what are the services, what's the catalog to actually sizing it, quoting it, getting their bills there, there there, see what their metered subscriptions are and to actually operating their gear, it's all about the apex console and of course um you know, no better than the relationships that you have with your customers and partners. I I encourage you to reach out to uh you know, our sales folks and and our and our partners to get more information on Apex >>awesome guys, thank you so much for joining me this virtual experience to talk about what's going on with Apex very short time that it was announced, a lot of progress, looking forward to the next Dell technologies world. That's hopefully in person and we can sit down with some customers and really talk through this but Devin and send, jimmy, thank you so much for your time. >>Thank you so much. Thank >>you >>for Devin Read and some G B metal. I'm lisa martin, you're watching the cubes coverage of Dell technologies world, the digital event experience.

>> Voiceover: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of Dell Technologies World Digital Experience brought to you by Dell Technologies. >> Welcome to theCUBE's coverage of Dell Technologies World 2020, the Digital Experience this year. I'm Lisa Martin, pleased to be joined by two CUBE alumni from Dell EMC. Please welcome Joe Caradonna, the VP of Cloud Storage CTO. Joe, good to see you again, even though quite socially distant. >> Yeah, thank you, it's great to be here. >> And Devon Reed is also joining us, the Senior Director of Product Management. Devon, how are you? >> I'm good, how are you doing? >> Good. >> Nice to be here, thank you. >> Nice to be chatting with you guys, although very, very socially distant, following rules. It wouldn't be a Dell Technologies World without having you guys on theCUBE, so we appreciate you joining us. So let's dig in. So much has happened in the world since we last spoke with you. But one of the things that happened last year, around a year ago, was the Dell On Demand program was launched. And now here we are nearly a year later when Michael Dell was just talking about, "Hey, Dell's plan is to go "and deliver everything as a service." We've heard some of your competitors kind of going the same route, some kind of spurned by COVID. Talk to us, Devon, we'll start with you, about what this direction is shift to as-a-service means and what it means specifically for storage. >> Yeah, certainly. So first and foremost, what we talked about last year with respect to On Demand, Dell Technologies On Demand, we've had great success with that program. But before I get into what we're doing with as-a-service, I really want to talk about why we're doing the as-a-service. And when we talk to customers and partners, and when we look at the trends in the market, what we're seeing is that customers are more and more wanting to consume technology infrastructure as a service in an OPEX manner. And analysts are revising those estimates up almost daily. And what we're seeing is one of the things that's driving that is actually why we're here in this remote session as opposed to being in Vegas, doing this. And it's really the global uncertainty around the pandemic. So it's driving the need to free up cash and consume these infrastructure more as a service. Now, as Michael said... Yeah, as Michael said, we have the broadest set of infrastructure offerings in the market and we are number one in most categories. And we're in the process of building out an offer structure that cuts across all the different infrastructure components. But to get real specific on what we're doing with a storage as a service, we are in the process of building out the first true storage or as a service offering for our infrastructure starting with storage. It'll be a private preview as of Q4, by the end of this fiscal year and generally available in the first half of next year. And what we're doing is taking the infrastructure, the Dell Technology's storage and where we're flipping the business model as opposed to buying it outright, the customers actually just consume it as a service. So they have a very simple consumption model where they just pick their outcome, they pick their restored service, they pick their performance, they pick their capacity, and we deliver that service to their on-premise site. >> Let me unpack outcomes of it, 'cause I saw that in some of the information online, outcome driven. What do you mean by that, and can you give us some examples of those outcomes that customers are looking to achieve? >> Yeah, so in today's world, the way people mostly consume infrastructure is, or at least storage, is that they say, "I need a storage product." And what the customers do is they work with our sales representatives and say, "I need a XYZ product. "Maybe it's a PowerStore and I need this much capacity. "I can pick all of the components, "I can pick the number of drives, "the type of drives there are." And that's really from a product perspective. And what we're doing with the, as-a-service, is we're trying to flip the model and really drive to what the business outcome is. So the business outcome here is really, I need block storage, I need this performance level, I need this much capacity. And then we basically ship the infrastructure, we think, that better suits those outcomes. And we're making changes across our entire infrastructure value chain to really deliver these service. So we try to deliver these much quicker for the customer. We actually manage the infrastructure. So it enables customers to spend less time managing their infrastructure and more time actually operating the service, paying attention to their business outcomes. >> Got it, and that's what every customer wants more of is more time to actually deliver this business outcomes and make those course corrections as they need to. Joe, let's talk to you for a bit. Let's talk, what's going on with cloud? The last time we saw you, a lot of change as we talked about, but give us a picture of Dell's cloud strategy. From what you guys are doing on-prem to what you are doing with cloud partners. What is this multi-pronged cloud strategy actually mean? >> Yeah, sure, I mean, our customers want hybrid cloud solutions and we believe that to be the model going forward. And so actually what we're doing is, if you think about it, we're taking the best of public cloud and bringing it on-prem, and we're also taking the best of on-prem and bringing it to the public cloud. So, you know, Devon just talked to you about how we're bringing that public cloud operation model to the data center. But what we've also done is bring our storage arrays to the cloud as a service. And we've done that with PowerStore, we've done that with PowerMax, and we've done that with PowerScale. And in the case of PowerScale for Google cloud, I mean, you get the same performance and capacity scale out in the cloud as you do on-prem. And the systems inter-operate between on-prem and cloud so it makes it easy for fluid data mobility across these environments. And for the first time it enables our customers to get their data to the cloud in a way that they can bring their high performance file workloads to the cloud. >> So talk to me a little bit about, you mentioned PowerScale for Google cloud service, is that a Dell hardware based solution? How does that work? >> Yeah, the adoptions have been great. I mean, we launched back in May and since then we brought on customers in oil and gas and eCommerce and in health as well. And we're growing out the regions, we're going to be announcing a new region in North America soon and we're going to be building out in APJ and EMEA as well. So, customer response has been fantastic, looking forward to growing up. >> Excellent, Devon back to you, let's talk about some of the things that are going on with PowerProtect DD, some new cloud services there too. Can you unpack that for us? >> So Joe, was talking about how we were taking our storage systems and putting them in the cloud. So I just back up in, and kind of introduce real quickly or reintroduce our Dell Technologies Cloud Storage Services. And that's really, we have our primary storage systems from Unity XT, the PowerStore, to PowerScale, to ECS, and that's housed in a co-locations facility right next to hyperscalers. And then that enables us to provide a fully managed service offering to our customers to a multi-cloud. So what we're doing is we're extending the Dell Technologies Cloud Storage Services to include PowerProtect DD. So we're bringing PowerProtect DD into this managed services offering so customers can use it for cloud, longterm retention, backup, archiving, and direct backup from a multicloud environment. So extending what we've already done with the Dell Technologies Cloud Storage Services. >> So is that almost kind of like a cloud based data protection solution for those workloads that are running in the cloud VMs, SaaS applications, physical servers, spiral data, things like that? >> Yeah, there's several use cases. So you could have a primary block storage system on your premises and you could actually be providing direct backup into the cloud. You could have backups that you have on-premise that you could be then replicating with PowerProtect data, data domain replication to cloud. And you could also have data in AWS, or Azure, or Google that you could be backing up directly to the PowerProtect domain into this service. So there's multiple use cases. >> Got it, all right. Joe, let's talk about some of the extensions of cloud you guys have both been talking about the last few minutes. One of the recent announcements was about PowerMax being cloud enabled and that's a big deal to cloudify something like that. Help us understand the nature of that, the impetus, and what that means now and what customers are able to actually use today. >> Yeah sure, I mean, we've launched the PowerMax as a cloud service about a year and a half ago with our partner, Faction. And that's for those customers that want that tier zero enterprise grade data capabilities in the cloud. And not just a cloud, it also offers multicloud capabilities for both file and block. Now, in addition, the Dell Tech World, we're launching additional cloud mobility capabilities for PowerMax, where let's say you have a PowerMax on-prem, you could actually do snapshot shipping to an object repository. And that could be in AWS, that can be in Azure, or it could be locally to our local ECS object store. In addition, in the case of Amazon we go a step further where if you do snapshot shipping into Amazon S3, you can then rehydrate those snapshots directly into EBS. And that way you can do processing on that data in the cloud as well. >> Give us an idea, Joe, the last few months or so what some of your customer conversations have been like? I know you're normally in front of customers all the time. Dell Tech World is a great example. I think last year there was about 14,000 folks there, was huge. And we're all so used to that three dimensional engagement, more challenging to do remotely, but talk to me about some of the customer conversations that you've had, and how they've helped influence some of the recent announcements. >> Yeah sure, customers... It might sound a little cliche, but cloud is a journey. It's a journey for our customers. It's a journey for us too, as we build out our capabilities to best serve them. But their questions are, "I want to take advantage "of that elastic compute in the cloud." But maybe the data storage doesn't keep up with it. In the case of when we go to PowerScale for Google, the reason why we brought that platform to the cloud is 'cause you can get hundreds of gigabytes per second of throughput through that. And for our customers that are doing things like processing genomic sequencing data, they need that level of throughput, and they want to move those workloads into the cloud. The computer's there but the storage systems to keep up with it, were not. So by us bringing a solution like this to the cloud, now they can do that. So we see that with PowerScale, we see a lot of that with file in the cloud because the file services in the cloud aren't as mature as some of the other ones like with block and object. So we're helping filling some of those gaps and getting them to those higher performance tiers. And as I was mentioning, with things like PowerMax and PowerStore, it's extending their on-prem presence into the public cloud. So they can start to make decisions not based on a capability, but more based on the requirements for where they want to run their workloads. >> And let's switch gears to talking about partners now. Dell has a huge partner ecosystem. We always talk with those folks on theCUBE as well, every year. Devon, from a product management perspective, tell me about some of the things that are interesting to partners and what the advantages are for partners with this shift in what, how Dell is going to be delivering, from PCs, to storage, to HCI, for example. >> Yeah exactly, so, Joe mentioned that it's really a journey and Joe talked a lot about how customers aren't maybe not (indistinct) completely going to a hyperscale or to a complete public cloud. And what we're hearing is there's a lot of customers that are actually wanting the cloud-like experience, but wanting it on-prem. And we're hearing from our partners almost on a daily basis. I have a lot of partner customer conversations where they want to be involved in delivering this as a service. Through their customers, they want to maintain that relationship, derive that value, and in some cases even provide the services for them. And that's what we're looking do as the largest infrastructure provider with the broadest base of partnership we have an advantage there. >> Is there any specific partner certification programs that partners can get into to help start rolling this out? >> At this point, we are trying to build it, but at this point we had nothing to announce here but that's something that we're actively working on and stay tuned for that. >> I imagine there will be a lot of virtual conversations at the digital tech world this year, between the partner community when all of these things are announced. And you get those brains collectively together although obviously virtually, to start iterating on ideas and developing things that might be great to programmatize down the road. And, Joe, last question for you, second to last question actually, is this, this year as we talked about a number of times, everyone's remote, everyone's virtual. It's challenging to get that level of engagement. We're all so used to being in-person and all of the hallway conversations even that you have when you're walking around the massive show floor for example, what can participants and attendees expect from your perspective this year at Dell Technologies World? Will they be able to get the education and that engagement that Dell really wants to deliver? >> Yeah, well, clearly we had to scale things back quite, there's no way around that. But we have a lot of sessions that were designed to inform them with a new capabilities we've been building out. And not just for cloud, but across the portfolio. So I hope they get a lot out of that. We have some interactive sessions in there as well, for some interactive Q and A. And you're right, I mean, a challenge for us is connecting with the customer in this virtual reality. We're all at home, right? The customers are at home. So we've been on Zoom, like never before, reaching out to customers to better understand where they want to go, what their challenges are and how we can help them. So I would say we are connecting, it's a little different and requires a little more effort on everyone's part. We just can't all do it in the same day anymore. It is just a little more spread out. >> Well, then it kind of shows the opportunity to consume things on demand. And as consumers, we sort of have this expectation that we can get anything we want on demand. But you mentioned, Joe, in the second to last question, this is the last one. But you mentioned, everybody's at home. You have to tell us about that fantastic guitar behind you. What's the story? >> Every guitar has a story. I'll just say for today, look, this is my tribute to Eddie Van Halen. We're going to miss him for sure. >> And I'll have the audience know, I did ask Joe to play us out. He declined, but I'm going to hold them to that for next time, 'cause we're not sure when we're going to get to see you guys in person again. Joe and Devon, thank you so much for joining me on the program today. It's been great talking to you. Lots of things coming, lots of iterations, lots of influence from the customers, influence from COVID and we're excited to see what is to come. Thanks for your time. >> Both: Thank you so much. >> From my guests, Joe Caradonna and Devon Reed, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE's coverage of Dell Technologies World 2020, the Digital Experience. (soft music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> OpenAI The company, and ChatGPT have taken the world by storm. Microsoft reportedly is investing an additional 10 billion dollars into the company. But in our view, while the hype around ChatGPT is justified, we don't believe OpenAI will lock up the market with its first mover advantage. Rather, we believe that success in this market will be directly proportional to the quality and quantity of data that a technology company has at its disposal, and the compute power that it could deploy to run its system. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE insights, powered by ETR. In this Breaking Analysis, we unpack the excitement around ChatGPT, and debate the premise that the company's early entry into the space may not confer winner take all advantage to OpenAI. And to do so, we welcome CUBE collaborator, alum, Sarbjeet Johal, (chuckles) and John Furrier, co-host of the Cube. Great to see you Sarbjeet, John. Really appreciate you guys coming to the program. >> Great to be on. >> Okay, so what is ChatGPT? Well, actually we asked ChatGPT, what is ChatGPT? So here's what it said. ChatGPT is a state-of-the-art language model developed by OpenAI that can generate human-like text. It could be fine tuned for a variety of language tasks, such as conversation, summarization, and language translation. So I asked it, give it to me in 50 words or less. How did it do? Anything to add? >> Yeah, think it did good. It's large language model, like previous models, but it started applying the transformers sort of mechanism to focus on what prompt you have given it to itself. And then also the what answer it gave you in the first, sort of, one sentence or two sentences, and then introspect on itself, like what I have already said to you. And so just work on that. So it it's self sort of focus if you will. It does, the transformers help the large language models to do that. >> So to your point, it's a large language model, and GPT stands for generative pre-trained transformer. >> And if you put the definition back up there again, if you put it back up on the screen, let's see it back up. Okay, it actually missed the large, word large. So one of the problems with ChatGPT, it's not always accurate. It's actually a large language model, and it says state of the art language model. And if you look at Google, Google has dominated AI for many times and they're well known as being the best at this. And apparently Google has their own large language model, LLM, in play and have been holding it back to release because of backlash on the accuracy. Like just in that example you showed is a great point. They got almost right, but they missed the key word. >> You know what's funny about that John, is I had previously asked it in my prompt to give me it in less than a hundred words, and it was too long, I said I was too long for Breaking Analysis, and there it went into the fact that it's a large language model. So it largely, it gave me a really different answer the, for both times. So, but it's still pretty amazing for those of you who haven't played with it yet. And one of the best examples that I saw was Ben Charrington from This Week In ML AI podcast. And I stumbled on this thanks to Brian Gracely, who was listening to one of his Cloudcasts. Basically what Ben did is he took, he prompted ChatGPT to interview ChatGPT, and he simply gave the system the prompts, and then he ran the questions and answers into this avatar builder and sped it up 2X so it didn't sound like a machine. And voila, it was amazing. So John is ChatGPT going to take over as a cube host? >> Well, I was thinking, we get the questions in advance sometimes from PR people. We should actually just plug it in ChatGPT, add it to our notes, and saying, "Is this good enough for you? Let's ask the real question." So I think, you know, I think there's a lot of heavy lifting that gets done. I think the ChatGPT is a phenomenal revolution. I think it highlights the use case. Like that example we showed earlier. It gets most of it right. So it's directionally correct and it feels like it's an answer, but it's not a hundred percent accurate. And I think that's where people are seeing value in it. Writing marketing, copy, brainstorming, guest list, gift list for somebody. Write me some lyrics to a song. Give me a thesis about healthcare policy in the United States. It'll do a bang up job, and then you got to go in and you can massage it. So we're going to do three quarters of the work. That's why plagiarism and schools are kind of freaking out. And that's why Microsoft put 10 billion in, because why wouldn't this be a feature of Word, or the OS to help it do stuff on behalf of the user. So linguistically it's a beautiful thing. You can input a string and get a good answer. It's not a search result. >> And we're going to get your take on on Microsoft and, but it kind of levels the playing- but ChatGPT writes better than I do, Sarbjeet, and I know you have some good examples too. You mentioned the Reed Hastings example. >> Yeah, I was listening to Reed Hastings fireside chat with ChatGPT, and the answers were coming as sort of voice, in the voice format. And it was amazing what, he was having very sort of philosophy kind of talk with the ChatGPT, the longer sentences, like he was going on, like, just like we are talking, he was talking for like almost two minutes and then ChatGPT was answering. It was not one sentence question, and then a lot of answers from ChatGPT and yeah, you're right. I, this is our ability. I've been thinking deep about this since yesterday, we talked about, like, we want to do this segment. The data is fed into the data model. It can be the current data as well, but I think that, like, models like ChatGPT, other companies will have those too. They can, they're democratizing the intelligence, but they're not creating intelligence yet, definitely yet I can say that. They will give you all the finite answers. Like, okay, how do you do this for loop in Java, versus, you know, C sharp, and as a programmer you can do that, in, but they can't tell you that, how to write a new algorithm or write a new search algorithm for you. They cannot create a secretive code for you to- >> Not yet. >> Have competitive advantage. >> Not yet, not yet. >> but you- >> Can Google do that today? >> No one really can. The reasoning side of the data is, we talked about at our Supercloud event, with Zhamak Dehghani who's was CEO of, now of Nextdata. This next wave of data intelligence is going to come from entrepreneurs that are probably cross discipline, computer science and some other discipline. But they're going to be new things, for example, data, metadata, and data. It's hard to do reasoning like a human being, so that needs more data to train itself. So I think the first gen of this training module for the large language model they have is a corpus of text. Lot of that's why blog posts are, but the facts are wrong and sometimes out of context, because that contextual reasoning takes time, it takes intelligence. So machines need to become intelligent, and so therefore they need to be trained. So you're going to start to see, I think, a lot of acceleration on training the data sets. And again, it's only as good as the data you can get. And again, proprietary data sets will be a huge winner. Anyone who's got a large corpus of content, proprietary content like theCUBE or SiliconANGLE as a publisher will benefit from this. Large FinTech companies, anyone with large proprietary data will probably be a big winner on this generative AI wave, because it just, it will eat that up, and turn that back into something better. So I think there's going to be a lot of interesting things to look at here. And certainly productivity's going to be off the charts for vanilla and the internet is going to get swarmed with vanilla content. So if you're in the content business, and you're an original content producer of any kind, you're going to be not vanilla, so you're going to be better. So I think there's so much at play Dave (indistinct). >> I think the playing field has been risen, so we- >> Risen and leveled? >> Yeah, and leveled to certain extent. So it's now like that few people as consumers, as consumers of AI, we will have a advantage and others cannot have that advantage. So it will be democratized. That's, I'm sure about that. But if you take the example of calculator, when the calculator came in, and a lot of people are, "Oh, people can't do math anymore because calculator is there." right? So it's a similar sort of moment, just like a calculator for the next level. But, again- >> I see it more like open source, Sarbjeet, because like if you think about what ChatGPT's doing, you do a query and it comes from somewhere the value of a post from ChatGPT is just a reuse of AI. The original content accent will be come from a human. So if I lay out a paragraph from ChatGPT, did some heavy lifting on some facts, I check the facts, save me about maybe- >> Yeah, it's productive. >> An hour writing, and then I write a killer two, three sentences of, like, sharp original thinking or critical analysis. I then took that body of work, open source content, and then laid something on top of it. >> And Sarbjeet's example is a good one, because like if the calculator kids don't do math as well anymore, the slide rule, remember we had slide rules as kids, remember we first started using Waze, you know, we were this minority and you had an advantage over other drivers. Now Waze is like, you know, social traffic, you know, navigation, everybody had, you know- >> All the back roads are crowded. >> They're car crowded. (group laughs) Exactly. All right, let's, let's move on. What about this notion that futurist Ray Amara put forth and really Amara's Law that we're showing here, it's, the law is we, you know, "We tend to overestimate the effect of technology in the short run and underestimate it in the long run." Is that the case, do you think, with ChatGPT? What do you think Sarbjeet? >> I think that's true actually. There's a lot of, >> We don't debate this. >> There's a lot of awe, like when people see the results from ChatGPT, they say what, what the heck? Like, it can do this? But then if you use it more and more and more, and I ask the set of similar question, not the same question, and it gives you like same answer. It's like reading from the same bucket of text in, the interior read (indistinct) where the ChatGPT, you will see that in some couple of segments. It's very, it sounds so boring that the ChatGPT is coming out the same two sentences every time. So it is kind of good, but it's not as good as people think it is right now. But we will have, go through this, you know, hype sort of cycle and get realistic with it. And then in the long term, I think it's a great thing in the short term, it's not something which will (indistinct) >> What's your counter point? You're saying it's not. >> I, no I think the question was, it's hyped up in the short term and not it's underestimated long term. That's what I think what he said, quote. >> Yes, yeah. That's what he said. >> Okay, I think that's wrong with this, because this is a unique, ChatGPT is a unique kind of impact and it's very generational. People have been comparing it, I have been comparing to the internet, like the web, web browser Mosaic and Netscape, right, Navigator. I mean, I clearly still remember the days seeing Navigator for the first time, wow. And there weren't not many sites you could go to, everyone typed in, you know, cars.com, you know. >> That (indistinct) wasn't that overestimated, the overhyped at the beginning and underestimated. >> No, it was, it was underestimated long run, people thought. >> But that Amara's law. >> That's what is. >> No, they said overestimated? >> Overestimated near term underestimated- overhyped near term, underestimated long term. I got, right I mean? >> Well, I, yeah okay, so I would then agree, okay then- >> We were off the charts about the internet in the early days, and it actually exceeded our expectations. >> Well there were people who were, like, poo-pooing it early on. So when the browser came out, people were like, "Oh, the web's a toy for kids." I mean, in 1995 the web was a joke, right? So '96, you had online populations growing, so you had structural changes going on around the browser, internet population. And then that replaced other things, direct mail, other business activities that were once analog then went to the web, kind of read only as you, as we always talk about. So I think that's a moment where the hype long term, the smart money, and the smart industry experts all get the long term. And in this case, there's more poo-pooing in the short term. "Ah, it's not a big deal, it's just AI." I've heard many people poo-pooing ChatGPT, and a lot of smart people saying, "No this is next gen, this is different and it's only going to get better." So I think people are estimating a big long game on this one. >> So you're saying it's bifurcated. There's those who say- >> Yes. >> Okay, all right, let's get to the heart of the premise, and possibly the debate for today's episode. Will OpenAI's early entry into the market confer sustainable competitive advantage for the company. And if you look at the history of tech, the technology industry, it's kind of littered with first mover failures. Altair, IBM, Tandy, Commodore, they and Apple even, they were really early in the PC game. They took a backseat to Dell who came in the scene years later with a better business model. Netscape, you were just talking about, was all the rage in Silicon Valley, with the first browser, drove up all the housing prices out here. AltaVista was the first search engine to really, you know, index full text. >> Owned by Dell, I mean DEC. >> Owned by Digital. >> Yeah, Digital Equipment >> Compaq bought it. And of course as an aside, Digital, they wanted to showcase their hardware, right? Their super computer stuff. And then so Friendster and MySpace, they came before Facebook. The iPhone certainly wasn't the first mobile device. So lots of failed examples, but there are some recent successes like AWS and cloud. >> You could say smartphone. So I mean. >> Well I know, and you can, we can parse this so we'll debate it. Now Twitter, you could argue, had first mover advantage. You kind of gave me that one John. Bitcoin and crypto clearly had first mover advantage, and sustaining that. Guys, will OpenAI make it to the list on the right with ChatGPT, what do you think? >> I think categorically as a company, it probably won't, but as a category, I think what they're doing will, so OpenAI as a company, they get funding, there's power dynamics involved. Microsoft put a billion dollars in early on, then they just pony it up. Now they're reporting 10 billion more. So, like, if the browsers, Microsoft had competitive advantage over Netscape, and used monopoly power, and convicted by the Department of Justice for killing Netscape with their monopoly, Netscape should have had won that battle, but Microsoft killed it. In this case, Microsoft's not killing it, they're buying into it. So I think the embrace extend Microsoft power here makes OpenAI vulnerable for that one vendor solution. So the AI as a company might not make the list, but the category of what this is, large language model AI, is probably will be on the right hand side. >> Okay, we're going to come back to the government intervention and maybe do some comparisons, but what are your thoughts on this premise here? That, it will basically set- put forth the premise that it, that ChatGPT, its early entry into the market will not confer competitive advantage to >> For OpenAI. >> To Open- Yeah, do you agree with that? >> I agree with that actually. It, because Google has been at it, and they have been holding back, as John said because of the scrutiny from the Fed, right, so- >> And privacy too. >> And the privacy and the accuracy as well. But I think Sam Altman and the company on those guys, right? They have put this in a hasty way out there, you know, because it makes mistakes, and there are a lot of questions around the, sort of, where the content is coming from. You saw that as your example, it just stole the content, and without your permission, you know? >> Yeah. So as quick this aside- >> And it codes on people's behalf and the, those codes are wrong. So there's a lot of, sort of, false information it's putting out there. So it's a very vulnerable thing to do what Sam Altman- >> So even though it'll get better, others will compete. >> So look, just side note, a term which Reid Hoffman used a little bit. Like he said, it's experimental launch, like, you know, it's- >> It's pretty damn good. >> It is clever because according to Sam- >> It's more than clever. It's good. >> It's awesome, if you haven't used it. I mean you write- you read what it writes and you go, "This thing writes so well, it writes so much better than you." >> The human emotion drives that too. I think that's a big thing. But- >> I Want to add one more- >> Make your last point. >> Last one. Okay. So, but he's still holding back. He's conducting quite a few interviews. If you want to get the gist of it, there's an interview with StrictlyVC interview from yesterday with Sam Altman. Listen to that one it's an eye opening what they want- where they want to take it. But my last one I want to make it on this point is that Satya Nadella yesterday did an interview with Wall Street Journal. I think he was doing- >> You were not impressed. >> I was not impressed because he was pushing it too much. So Sam Altman's holding back so there's less backlash. >> Got 10 billion reasons to push. >> I think he's almost- >> Microsoft just laid off 10000 people. Hey ChatGPT, find me a job. You know like. (group laughs) >> He's overselling it to an extent that I think it will backfire on Microsoft. And he's over promising a lot of stuff right now, I think. I don't know why he's very jittery about all these things. And he did the same thing during Ignite as well. So he said, "Oh, this AI will write code for you and this and that." Like you called him out- >> The hyperbole- >> During your- >> from Satya Nadella, he's got a lot of hyperbole. (group talks over each other) >> All right, Let's, go ahead. >> Well, can I weigh in on the whole- >> Yeah, sure. >> Microsoft thing on whether OpenAI, here's the take on this. I think it's more like the browser moment to me, because I could relate to that experience with ChatG, personally, emotionally, when I saw that, and I remember vividly- >> You mean that aha moment (indistinct). >> Like this is obviously the future. Anything else in the old world is dead, website's going to be everywhere. It was just instant dot connection for me. And a lot of other smart people who saw this. Lot of people by the way, didn't see it. Someone said the web's a toy. At the company I was worked for at the time, Hewlett Packard, they like, they could have been in, they had invented HTML, and so like all this stuff was, like, they just passed, the web was just being passed over. But at that time, the browser got better, more websites came on board. So the structural advantage there was online web usage was growing, online user population. So that was growing exponentially with the rise of the Netscape browser. So OpenAI could stay on the right side of your list as durable, if they leverage the category that they're creating, can get the scale. And if they can get the scale, just like Twitter, that failed so many times that they still hung around. So it was a product that was always successful, right? So I mean, it should have- >> You're right, it was terrible, we kept coming back. >> The fail whale, but it still grew. So OpenAI has that moment. They could do it if Microsoft doesn't meddle too much with too much power as a vendor. They could be the Netscape Navigator, without the anti-competitive behavior of somebody else. So to me, they have the pole position. So they have an opportunity. So if not, if they don't execute, then there's opportunity. There's not a lot of barriers to entry, vis-a-vis say the CapEx of say a cloud company like AWS. You can't replicate that, Many have tried, but I think you can replicate OpenAI. >> And we're going to talk about that. Okay, so real quick, I want to bring in some ETR data. This isn't an ETR heavy segment, only because this so new, you know, they haven't coverage yet, but they do cover AI. So basically what we're seeing here is a slide on the vertical axis's net score, which is a measure of spending momentum, and in the horizontal axis's is presence in the dataset. Think of it as, like, market presence. And in the insert right there, you can see how the dots are plotted, the two columns. And so, but the key point here that we want to make, there's a bunch of companies on the left, is he like, you know, DataRobot and C3 AI and some others, but the big whales, Google, AWS, Microsoft, are really dominant in this market. So that's really the key takeaway that, can we- >> I notice IBM is way low. >> Yeah, IBM's low, and actually bring that back up and you, but then you see Oracle who actually is injecting. So I guess that's the other point is, you're not necessarily going to go buy AI, and you know, build your own AI, you're going to, it's going to be there and, it, Salesforce is going to embed it into its platform, the SaaS companies, and you're going to purchase AI. You're not necessarily going to build it. But some companies obviously are. >> I mean to quote IBM's general manager Rob Thomas, "You can't have AI with IA." information architecture and David Flynn- >> You can't Have AI without IA >> without, you can't have AI without IA. You can't have, if you have an Information Architecture, you then can power AI. Yesterday David Flynn, with Hammersmith, was on our Supercloud. He was pointing out that the relationship of storage, where you store things, also impacts the data and stressablity, and Zhamak from Nextdata, she was pointing out that same thing. So the data problem factors into all this too, Dave. >> So you got the big cloud and internet giants, they're all poised to go after this opportunity. Microsoft is investing up to 10 billion. Google's code red, which was, you know, the headline in the New York Times. Of course Apple is there and several alternatives in the market today. Guys like Chinchilla, Bloom, and there's a company Jasper and several others, and then Lena Khan looms large and the government's around the world, EU, US, China, all taking notice before the market really is coalesced around a single player. You know, John, you mentioned Netscape, they kind of really, the US government was way late to that game. It was kind of game over. And Netscape, I remember Barksdale was like, "Eh, we're going to be selling software in the enterprise anyway." and then, pshew, the company just dissipated. So, but it looks like the US government, especially with Lena Khan, they're changing the definition of antitrust and what the cause is to go after people, and they're really much more aggressive. It's only what, two years ago that (indistinct). >> Yeah, the problem I have with the federal oversight is this, they're always like late to the game, and they're slow to catch up. So in other words, they're working on stuff that should have been solved a year and a half, two years ago around some of the social networks hiding behind some of the rules around open web back in the days, and I think- >> But they're like 15 years late to that. >> Yeah, and now they got this new thing on top of it. So like, I just worry about them getting their fingers. >> But there's only two years, you know, OpenAI. >> No, but the thing (indistinct). >> No, they're still fighting other battles. But the problem with government is that they're going to label Big Tech as like a evil thing like Pharma, it's like smoke- >> You know Lena Khan wants to kill Big Tech, there's no question. >> So I think Big Tech is getting a very seriously bad rap. And I think anything that the government does that shades darkness on tech, is politically motivated in most cases. You can almost look at everything, and my 80 20 rule is in play here. 80% of the government activity around tech is bullshit, it's politically motivated, and the 20% is probably relevant, but off the mark and not organized. >> Well market forces have always been the determining factor of success. The governments, you know, have been pretty much failed. I mean you look at IBM's antitrust, that, what did that do? The market ultimately beat them. You look at Microsoft back in the day, right? Windows 95 was peaking, the government came in. But you know, like you said, they missed the web, right, and >> so they were hanging on- >> There's nobody in government >> to Windows. >> that actually knows- >> And so, you, I think you're right. It's market forces that are going to determine this. But Sarbjeet, what do you make of Microsoft's big bet here, you weren't impressed with with Nadella. How do you think, where are they going to apply it? Is this going to be a Hail Mary for Bing, or is it going to be applied elsewhere? What do you think. >> They are saying that they will, sort of, weave this into their products, office products, productivity and also to write code as well, developer productivity as well. That's a big play for them. But coming back to your antitrust sort of comments, right? I believe the, your comment was like, oh, fed was late 10 years or 15 years earlier, but now they're two years. But things are moving very fast now as compared to they used to move. >> So two years is like 10 Years. >> Yeah, two years is like 10 years. Just want to make that point. (Dave laughs) This thing is going like wildfire. Any new tech which comes in that I think they're going against distribution channels. Lina Khan has commented time and again that the marketplace model is that she wants to have some grip on. Cloud marketplaces are a kind of monopolistic kind of way. >> I don't, I don't see this, I don't see a Chat AI. >> You told me it's not Bing, you had an interesting comment. >> No, no. First of all, this is great from Microsoft. If you're Microsoft- >> Why? >> Because Microsoft doesn't have the AI chops that Google has, right? Google is got so much core competency on how they run their search, how they run their backends, their cloud, even though they don't get a lot of cloud market share in the enterprise, they got a kick ass cloud cause they needed one. >> Totally. >> They've invented SRE. I mean Google's development and engineering chops are off the scales, right? Amazon's got some good chops, but Google's got like 10 times more chops than AWS in my opinion. Cloud's a whole different story. Microsoft gets AI, they get a playbook, they get a product they can render into, the not only Bing, productivity software, helping people write papers, PowerPoint, also don't forget the cloud AI can super help. We had this conversation on our Supercloud event, where AI's going to do a lot of the heavy lifting around understanding observability and managing service meshes, to managing microservices, to turning on and off applications, and or maybe writing code in real time. So there's a plethora of use cases for Microsoft to deploy this. combined with their R and D budgets, they can then turbocharge more research, build on it. So I think this gives them a car in the game, Google may have pole position with AI, but this puts Microsoft right in the game, and they already have a lot of stuff going on. But this just, I mean everything gets lifted up. Security, cloud, productivity suite, everything. >> What's under the hood at Google, and why aren't they talking about it? I mean they got to be freaked out about this. No? Or do they have kind of a magic bullet? >> I think they have the, they have the chops definitely. Magic bullet, I don't know where they are, as compared to the ChatGPT 3 or 4 models. Like they, but if you look at the online sort of activity and the videos put out there from Google folks, Google technology folks, that's account you should look at if you are looking there, they have put all these distinctions what ChatGPT 3 has used, they have been talking about for a while as well. So it's not like it's a secret thing that you cannot replicate. As you said earlier, like in the beginning of this segment, that anybody who has more data and the capacity to process that data, which Google has both, I think they will win this. >> Obviously living in Palo Alto where the Google founders are, and Google's headquarters next town over we have- >> We're so close to them. We have inside information on some of the thinking and that hasn't been reported by any outlet yet. And that is, is that, from what I'm hearing from my sources, is Google has it, they don't want to release it for many reasons. One is it might screw up their search monopoly, one, two, they're worried about the accuracy, 'cause Google will get sued. 'Cause a lot of people are jamming on this ChatGPT as, "Oh it does everything for me." when it's clearly not a hundred percent accurate all the time. >> So Lina Kahn is looming, and so Google's like be careful. >> Yeah so Google's just like, this is the third, could be a third rail. >> But the first thing you said is a concern. >> Well no. >> The disruptive (indistinct) >> What they will do is do a Waymo kind of thing, where they spin out a separate company. >> They're doing that. >> The discussions happening, they're going to spin out the separate company and put it over there, and saying, "This is AI, got search over there, don't touch that search, 'cause that's where all the revenue is." (chuckles) >> So, okay, so that's how they deal with the Clay Christensen dilemma. What's the business model here? I mean it's not advertising, right? Is it to charge you for a query? What, how do you make money at this? >> It's a good question, I mean my thinking is, first of all, it's cool to type stuff in and see a paper get written, or write a blog post, or gimme a marketing slogan for this or that or write some code. I think the API side of the business will be critical. And I think Howie Xu, I know you're going to reference some of his comments yesterday on Supercloud, I think this brings a whole 'nother user interface into technology consumption. I think the business model, not yet clear, but it will probably be some sort of either API and developer environment or just a straight up free consumer product, with some sort of freemium backend thing for business. >> And he was saying too, it's natural language is the way in which you're going to interact with these systems. >> I think it's APIs, it's APIs, APIs, APIs, because these people who are cooking up these models, and it takes a lot of compute power to train these and to, for inference as well. Somebody did the analysis on the how many cents a Google search costs to Google, and how many cents the ChatGPT query costs. It's, you know, 100x or something on that. You can take a look at that. >> A 100x on which side? >> You're saying two orders of magnitude more expensive for ChatGPT >> Much more, yeah. >> Than for Google. >> It's very expensive. >> So Google's got the data, they got the infrastructure and they got, you're saying they got the cost (indistinct) >> No actually it's a simple query as well, but they are trying to put together the answers, and they're going through a lot more data versus index data already, you know. >> Let me clarify, you're saying that Google's version of ChatGPT is more efficient? >> No, I'm, I'm saying Google search results. >> Ah, search results. >> What are used to today, but cheaper. >> But that, does that, is that going to confer advantage to Google's large language (indistinct)? >> It will, because there were deep science (indistinct). >> Google, I don't think Google search is doing a large language model on their search, it's keyword search. You know, what's the weather in Santa Cruz? Or how, what's the weather going to be? Or you know, how do I find this? Now they have done a smart job of doing some things with those queries, auto complete, re direct navigation. But it's, it's not entity. It's not like, "Hey, what's Dave Vellante thinking this week in Breaking Analysis?" ChatGPT might get that, because it'll get your Breaking Analysis, it'll synthesize it. There'll be some, maybe some clips. It'll be like, you know, I mean. >> Well I got to tell you, I asked ChatGPT to, like, I said, I'm going to enter a transcript of a discussion I had with Nir Zuk, the CTO of Palo Alto Networks, And I want you to write a 750 word blog. I never input the transcript. It wrote a 750 word blog. It attributed quotes to him, and it just pulled a bunch of stuff that, and said, okay, here it is. It talked about Supercloud, it defined Supercloud. >> It's made, it makes you- >> Wow, But it was a big lie. It was fraudulent, but still, blew me away. >> Again, vanilla content and non accurate content. So we are going to see a surge of misinformation on steroids, but I call it the vanilla content. Wow, that's just so boring, (indistinct). >> There's so many dangers. >> Make your point, cause we got to, almost out of time. >> Okay, so the consumption, like how do you consume this thing. As humans, we are consuming it and we are, like, getting a nicely, like, surprisingly shocked, you know, wow, that's cool. It's going to increase productivity and all that stuff, right? And on the danger side as well, the bad actors can take hold of it and create fake content and we have the fake sort of intelligence, if you go out there. So that's one thing. The second thing is, we are as humans are consuming this as language. Like we read that, we listen to it, whatever format we consume that is, but the ultimate usage of that will be when the machines can take that output from likes of ChatGPT, and do actions based on that. The robots can work, the robot can paint your house, we were talking about, right? Right now we can't do that. >> Data apps. >> So the data has to be ingested by the machines. It has to be digestible by the machines. And the machines cannot digest unorganized data right now, we will get better on the ingestion side as well. So we are getting better. >> Data, reasoning, insights, and action. >> I like that mall, paint my house. >> So, okay- >> By the way, that means drones that'll come in. Spray painting your house. >> Hey, it wasn't too long ago that robots couldn't climb stairs, as I like to point out. Okay, and of course it's no surprise the venture capitalists are lining up to eat at the trough, as I'd like to say. Let's hear, you'd referenced this earlier, John, let's hear what AI expert Howie Xu said at the Supercloud event, about what it takes to clone ChatGPT. Please, play the clip. >> So one of the VCs actually asked me the other day, right? "Hey, how much money do I need to spend, invest to get a, you know, another shot to the openAI sort of the level." You know, I did a (indistinct) >> Line up. >> A hundred million dollar is the order of magnitude that I came up with, right? You know, not a billion, not 10 million, right? So a hundred- >> Guys a hundred million dollars, that's an astoundingly low figure. What do you make of it? >> I was in an interview with, I was interviewing, I think he said hundred million or so, but in the hundreds of millions, not a billion right? >> You were trying to get him up, you were like "Hundreds of millions." >> Well I think, I- >> He's like, eh, not 10, not a billion. >> Well first of all, Howie Xu's an expert machine learning. He's at Zscaler, he's a machine learning AI guy. But he comes from VMware, he's got his technology pedigrees really off the chart. Great friend of theCUBE and kind of like a CUBE analyst for us. And he's smart. He's right. I think the barriers to entry from a dollar standpoint are lower than say the CapEx required to compete with AWS. Clearly, the CapEx spending to build all the tech for the run a cloud. >> And you don't need a huge sales force. >> And in some case apps too, it's the same thing. But I think it's not that hard. >> But am I right about that? You don't need a huge sales force either. It's, what, you know >> If the product's good, it will sell, this is a new era. The better mouse trap will win. This is the new economics in software, right? So- >> Because you look at the amount of money Lacework, and Snyk, Snowflake, Databrooks. Look at the amount of money they've raised. I mean it's like a billion dollars before they get to IPO or more. 'Cause they need promotion, they need go to market. You don't need (indistinct) >> OpenAI's been working on this for multiple five years plus it's, hasn't, wasn't born yesterday. Took a lot of years to get going. And Sam is depositioning all the success, because he's trying to manage expectations, To your point Sarbjeet, earlier. It's like, yeah, he's trying to "Whoa, whoa, settle down everybody, (Dave laughs) it's not that great." because he doesn't want to fall into that, you know, hero and then get taken down, so. >> It may take a 100 million or 150 or 200 million to train the model. But to, for the inference to, yeah to for the inference machine, It will take a lot more, I believe. >> Give it, so imagine, >> Because- >> Go ahead, sorry. >> Go ahead. But because it consumes a lot more compute cycles and it's certain level of storage and everything, right, which they already have. So I think to compute is different. To frame the model is a different cost. But to run the business is different, because I think 100 million can go into just fighting the Fed. >> Well there's a flywheel too. >> Oh that's (indistinct) >> (indistinct) >> We are running the business, right? >> It's an interesting number, but it's also kind of, like, context to it. So here, a hundred million spend it, you get there, but you got to factor in the fact that the ways companies win these days is critical mass scale, hitting a flywheel. If they can keep that flywheel of the value that they got going on and get better, you can almost imagine a marketplace where, hey, we have proprietary data, we're SiliconANGLE in theCUBE. We have proprietary content, CUBE videos, transcripts. Well wouldn't it be great if someone in a marketplace could sell a module for us, right? We buy that, Amazon's thing and things like that. So if they can get a marketplace going where you can apply to data sets that may be proprietary, you can start to see this become bigger. And so I think the key barriers to entry is going to be success. I'll give you an example, Reddit. Reddit is successful and it's hard to copy, not because of the software. >> They built the moat. >> Because you can, buy Reddit open source software and try To compete. >> They built the moat with their community. >> Their community, their scale, their user expectation. Twitter, we referenced earlier, that thing should have gone under the first two years, but there was such a great emotional product. People would tolerate the fail whale. And then, you know, well that was a whole 'nother thing. >> Then a plane landed in (John laughs) the Hudson and it was over. >> I think verticals, a lot of verticals will build applications using these models like for lawyers, for doctors, for scientists, for content creators, for- >> So you'll have many hundreds of millions of dollars investments that are going to be seeping out. If, all right, we got to wrap, if you had to put odds on it that that OpenAI is going to be the leader, maybe not a winner take all leader, but like you look at like Amazon and cloud, they're not winner take all, these aren't necessarily winner take all markets. It's not necessarily a zero sum game, but let's call it winner take most. What odds would you give that open AI 10 years from now will be in that position. >> If I'm 0 to 10 kind of thing? >> Yeah, it's like horse race, 3 to 1, 2 to 1, even money, 10 to 1, 50 to 1. >> Maybe 2 to 1, >> 2 to 1, that's pretty low odds. That's basically saying they're the favorite, they're the front runner. Would you agree with that? >> I'd say 4 to 1. >> Yeah, I was going to say I'm like a 5 to 1, 7 to 1 type of person, 'cause I'm a skeptic with, you know, there's so much competition, but- >> I think they're definitely the leader. I mean you got to say, I mean. >> Oh there's no question. There's no question about it. >> The question is can they execute? >> They're not Friendster, is what you're saying. >> They're not Friendster and they're more like Twitter and Reddit where they have momentum. If they can execute on the product side, and if they don't stumble on that, they will continue to have the lead. >> If they say stay neutral, as Sam is, has been saying, that, hey, Microsoft is one of our partners, if you look at their company model, how they have structured the company, then they're going to pay back to the investors, like Microsoft is the biggest one, up to certain, like by certain number of years, they're going to pay back from all the money they make, and after that, they're going to give the money back to the public, to the, I don't know who they give it to, like non-profit or something. (indistinct) >> Okay, the odds are dropping. (group talks over each other) That's a good point though >> Actually they might have done that to fend off the criticism of this. But it's really interesting to see the model they have adopted. >> The wildcard in all this, My last word on this is that, if there's a developer shift in how developers and data can come together again, we have conferences around the future of data, Supercloud and meshs versus, you know, how the data world, coding with data, how that evolves will also dictate, 'cause a wild card could be a shift in the landscape around how developers are using either machine learning or AI like techniques to code into their apps, so. >> That's fantastic insight. I can't thank you enough for your time, on the heels of Supercloud 2, really appreciate it. All right, thanks to John and Sarbjeet for the outstanding conversation today. Special thanks to the Palo Alto studio team. My goodness, Anderson, this great backdrop. You guys got it all out here, I'm jealous. And Noah, really appreciate it, Chuck, Andrew Frick and Cameron, Andrew Frick switching, Cameron on the video lake, great job. And Alex Myerson, he's on production, manages the podcast for us, Ken Schiffman as well. Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on social media and our newsletters. Rob Hof is our editor-in-chief over at SiliconANGLE, does some great editing, thanks to all. Remember, all these episodes are available as podcasts. All you got to do is search Breaking Analysis podcast, wherever you listen. Publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. Want to get in touch, email me directly, david.vellante@siliconangle.com or DM me at dvellante, or comment on our LinkedIn post. And by all means, check out etr.ai. They got really great survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching, We'll see you next time on Breaking Analysis. (electronic music)

>>Hey everyone. Welcome back to the queue of Lisa Martin with Dave Valante and we're live in Vegas. This is snowflake summit, 22, their fourth annual event. A lot of people here, a lot of news, a lot to unpack so far, and this is only day, day one. We've got two guests here with us to talk about, uh, cyber security, a very important topic, please welcome Omar singer the head of cyber security strategy at snowflake and Julie Chilo VP of security at Guild education. Welcome. Thank >>You. Thank you >>For having all of >>Our favorite topics. Yeah. Oh >>One. It's not boring. >>You know this much and you have so much more to learn now. So here >>We go. Cybersecurity is, is not to say it's boring. Not boring is an understatement. Yeah. Omar, I wanna start with you so much news coming out today. Talk to us about what's new with cybersecurity. Workload is snowflakes. Flywheel of innovation just seems to be getting bigger and faster. >>Yeah. Yeah. Well, well, I'll tell you it's been a long road to get to where we are today. Um, my initial role at snowflake was to lead security engineering. So I've actually been using snowflake as the home for security data, basically from day one. And we saw that it worked, it worked really well. And we started hearing from customers that they were dealing with some of the same challenges that we faced as an internal security team. And we decided as snowflake that we wanna bring the benefits of the data cloud to cyber security teams at all of our customers. And that's what the workload is all about. >>Talk to us about the, the voice of the customer. Obviously we saw a lot of customer stories heard your customer. We're gonna be talking about Guild education in a minute, but in the voice of the customer, in terms of being influential, obviously you were an internal customer drinking that champagne like this tastes really good. This is better of the Flaco <laugh>, but how is the voice of the customer influential in terms of the, the cybersecurity workload, as we've seen the threat landscape change so much in the last two years alone? >>Sure, sure. And you know, security, it's a really hard problem. We like to think of it as a data problem. And when you start thinking about it, that way snowflake is re very relevant for it. But many security teams don't yet think about their challenge as a data challenge. And so they're struggling with a very fragmented data landscape. The facts are all over the place and they're not able to ask the kind of questions that they need to understand. Where are my risks? How are the bad guys gonna try to get into my network? And they can't reflect that to leadership to everybody that really cares about cyber security. This is a board level concern today without the unified data and without the analytics. Um, they really can't do any of that. And, and yeah, representing the customer is, is a big part of what I do. And we have great customers like, like Julie, who's been kind of with us on this journey. She's, she's a part of the movement. I mean, Julie, what, what has it been like, uh, for, for you? >>Oh, it's been, uh, it's been game changer for, for Guild for sure. When we first, uh, started, I didn't one, I didn't know this was a concept <laugh> so when I first started talking O me and, um, snowflake, uh, I had just heard through the grapevine that, that you could do, like, this was a thing you could use the data, you could get everything you needed in one place. And, um, it's been game changing for my team. Uh, we, we were in many different security tools. They were all isolated, siloed, and we're now able to move everything into one, uh, one area, uh, and get we're getting close to the one pane of glass, which I, um, I just heard was a mythical concept for >>Security for >>A long time. Yeah. For a long time. Um, so it's, uh, it's just been amazing and it's, uh, brought us closer to our data ops team. So I'm here this week, uh, with somebody from data ops, actually, that's awesome to help us out. >>So can you describe that further? I'm I'm, I'm, I'm amazed and skeptical the, the, the I'm imagining, you know, the Optiv chart that says eight, 8 million security tools on there, are you actually able, uh, describe how you're able to consolidate your tooling? >>So, one of, one of the biggest problem, one of the biggest problems we were facing initially was our SIM, um, the security incident and event management tool could not take anything from our DevSecOps tools. And so any security that we had in a developer pipeline was really isolated to that tool, and we could never get it into a SIM Sims just aren't meant they're not built to handle that they're built to handle, um, not, not really old school networks and, and data center traffic and everything I have is in the cloud. And so we were really, I, everything was isolated. So with snowflake, what we do is we, um, worked with our data ops team. We can move things from, um, like our, our scanning tools for, for the developer pipelines into snowflake. We can use then correlate different things such as, from like eight year ADP. Like if a, do you have somebody pushing code to production who's out on vacation, you can actually do that correlation with snowflake that was never available before. These are things we could never do before. And we're able to, um, just do correlations. You could not get in that you cannot get in a SIM. >>Why couldn't I just throw those into any old, you know, run of the mill cloud data warehouse? >>Well, you know, it's not just the scale, it's the complexity of the data. I think snowflake how we have the, the sche on read and then all of the kind of things that make snowflake really good for other departments turns out, works really well for security. And it's the ecosystem too. Nobody else has this ecosystem approach. You know, you heard on the keynote today that snowflake is the, this disrupting, um, the, the software application development, right? All, all that kind of focus. The tool consolidation doesn't need to mean that you only have one tool you can actually have best of breed, choose the tool you want. As long as the data's consolidated, you're not building more silos. And that's what our partners are doing. They're separating the application from the data. They're bringing the work to the data, and that's what you hear here. So Julie's team can still choose to use a variety of tools that get the job done, but all those tools are working off of the single source of truth. And that, that is unique to what snowflake >>Can enable. So we, we are Reiss. Uh, we should have asked you about Guild education, explain your, your, your organization. >>Oh, what does Guild do? Uh, so we're a late stage startup. Uh, we manage education as a benefit for, for large companies. So we, we house data from very large organizations with like their workforce and, and help students help, help their workforce go back to school. >>Okay. So unpacking some of the things you said, schema on Reed, but not necessarily no schema on, right. It's a little different, right. Because you're ingesting. Yeah. And then you're determining the scheme on read that's right. Right. Okay. So that makes it simple and fast for zoom, but you get data in and then you figure it out, bringing work to data. Can we just double click on that a little bit? Cuz I think when I think about that, we've heard terms like over the years bring compute to the data. That's what Hadoop was supposed to do. And it didn't, you know, it was like, everything was mm-hmm <affirmative> shoved. So what do you mean by that? How, how, what, what actually does that >>Mean? Yeah. So if you think about the traditional SAS solution, the vendor needed to invest in a data center and to have a data platform that would be scalable and robust because their service dependent on it and they couldn't trust that the customer would have that kind of data platform on the customer's side. What Snowflake's data cloud has done has democratized the data platform. So now you have startups to fortune 500 S the vendors, the customers, they're all uneven footing when it comes to the data platform. So now the vendors can say, bring your own snowflake. Why not? You know, and they can focus on building the best application to solve the real challenges that security teams have. But by the way, not only cybersecurity, we see this and for example, the, um, customer data space as well. So we're seeing more and more kind of SaaS industries seeing this approach and the applications are gonna come yeah. To the data platform of choice, uh, for the practitioner. >>Julie, can we talk about some of the outcomes that Guild education has achieved so far by working with this solution in terms of, we look at the threat landscape and how it's changed so much the last couple of years and how it's a matter of if, or sorry, when not, if I get hit with an attack, how, what are some of the key outcomes that a snowflake partnership and technology has enabled you to achieve? >>So the, the biggest one, again, it's around the Def sec ops program, um, where you see so many attacks these days happening in the code base. So you really have to be careful with your, your pipeline where the code's getting moved through, who has access, who can move code into production. Um, and these are so the, like if you're using GitHub or, um, like using a scanning tool called snake, they're, they're separate, like they're completely separate the only way that we can see who's moving code into production, or if there was a vulnerability or somebody turned off, the security tool is to move these logs, this data into snowflake, uh, and our engineering teams were already using snowflake. Uh, so that made it, that was an easy transition for us. I didn't have to go out and convince another team to support us somewhere else, but a great example where we were, we're seeing great, um, savings, not only in people time, but, but for security, um, we were having problems or the security or the <laugh>, the engineers were turning off our secure codes scanner. >>And we didn't find out until a little bit later. Uh, oh yeah. Yeah. So found out we, my team, we had a team, we spent about 160 hours going through a thousand pole requests manually. And I said, no, no more go find the go figure out where this data exists. We put it in a snowflake and we can create an automatic, uh, ping to the security team saying, Hey, they turned off the, the scanner, go check and see what, why did the scanner get turned off? So it's an immediate response from my team instead of finding out two months later. And this is just, isn't something you can do right now. That's you can't set it up. So, um, makes it so easy. Ping goes to slack. We can go to the, immediately to the engineering team and say, why did you >>Using using automation? >>Yeah. Did you, did you turn this off? Why did you turn it off? Get an exception in so one, it like helps with compliance, so we're not messing up our SOC two audit. Uh, and then two, from a security perspective, we are able to, to trust, but verify, um, which is a big part of the DevSecOps landscape, where they need code to move into production. They need a scan to run in under five minutes. My team can't be there to scan, you know, 10, like 10 times a day or a hundred times a day. So we have to automate all of that and then just get information as it comes in. >>Is it accurate to say that, um, you're not like shutting off your tools, you're just taking advantage of them and compressing the time to get value out of them or are you actually reducing the tool sets? >>No, we don't. Well, no, we, our goal wasn't to reduce the tool set. I mean, we did actually get rid of the SIM we were using. Uh, so we were partnering with one of, um, uh, snowflakes partners, um, >>Because yeah, but you still have a SIM, >>We still have it. It's just minimized what goes to the SIM, because most of what I care about, isn't actually going to a SIM. Yeah. It's all the other pieces that are in a cloud because we use all like, we're, we're a hundred percent in the cloud. I don't have servers, I don't have firewalls. We don't have routes routers or switches. So all the things I care about live in a cloud somewhere. And, and I want that information. And so a lot of times, um, especially when it comes to the engineering tools, they were already sending the information to snowflake or they're also interested. And so we're partnering like it's, we're doubling up on the use of the >>Data. Okay. And you couldn't get that outta your SIM. Maybe you're asking your SIM to do too much, or it just didn't deliver. >>No systems are built on search engines. You know, they don't, >>They, they can't do it. >>You kind of knew what you were looking for and you say, Hey, where did I see this? Where did I see that? Very different from data analytics and the kinds of question that security teams really want to ask. These are emergent properties. You need context, you need sequel, you need Python. That's how you ask the questions that security teams really want to ask the legacy Sims. They don't let you ask that kind of question. They weren't built with that in mind. And they're so expensive that by moving off of them, to this approach, you kind of pay for all these other solutions that, that then you can bring on. >>That seems to make the, what you just said. There was brilliant. It seems to make the customer conversation quite easy if they're saying, well, why should I replace my SIM? It's doing just fine. You just nailed it with, with what you said there. >>So, yeah. And we're, and we're seeing that happen extensively. And I'm excited that we have customers here at summit talking about their experience, moving off of a legacy SIM where the security team was off to the side, away from the rest of the company to a unified approach, the SIM and the other security solutions working on top of the snowflake and a collaboration between security and the data >>Team. So what does your security ecosystem look like? You've got SIM partners. Do you have identity access partners, endpoint partner. Absolutely. >>Describe that compliance automation ass. Yeah. We hear about companies really struggling to meet all the compliance requirements. Well, if all the data's already centralized, then I can kind of prove to my auditors and not just once a quarter, but once a day, I can make sure that all the environment is in compliance with whatever standard I have. So we see a lot of that cloud security is another big one because there's just 10 times more things happening in the cloud environment than in the data center. Everything is so heavily instrumented. And so we see cloud security solutions as significant as well. And the identity space, the list goes on and on. We do see the future being the entire security program uses connected applications with a single source of truth in the company's snowflake. And >>Would you say centralized, you, you it's logically centralized, right? I mean, it's virtually centralized, right? It's not, >>Well, that's >>Not shoved into one container, right? >>I mean, it's right. Well, that's the beauty of the data cloud, right? We, everybody that's on the data cloud is able to collaborate. And so whether it's in the same account or table or database, you know, that's really besides the point because all of the platform investments that snowflake is making on cross region, cross cloud collaboration means that once it's in snowflake, then it is unified and can be used together. But >>I think people misunderstand that sometimes. And BEWA made this point, uh, as the Christian about the global nature of, of snowflake and it's globally distributed, but it's logically a data cloud. >>Yeah. I like to call it one big database in the sky. You know, that's how I explain to security teams that are kind of new to the concept, but >>It's not, it's could be a lot of little databases, but it, but having the same framework, the same governance structure, the same security >>You're right. I think that's how it's achieved is what you're describing. You know, I think from the outcome, what the security team needs to know is that when there's some breach hitting the headline and they need to go to their leadership and say, I can assure you, we were not affected. They can be confident in that answer because they have access to the data, wherever it is in the world, they have access to ask you the questions they need to ask. >>And that confidence is critical. These days as that threat landscape just continues to change. Thank you both so much for joining us. Thank you. Talking about from a cyber security perspective, some of the things that are new, new at snowflake, what you guys are doing at Guild education and how you're really transforming the organization with the data cloud, we appreciate your insights. Thank you for having us. Thank you. Thanks you guys for our guests and Dave ante. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the queue live from Las Vegas on the show floor of snowflake summit 22. We'll be right back with our next guest.

>>from >>around the >>globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of pager duty. Summit 2020. Brought to you by pager duty. Hey, welcome back to Brady. Jeffrey here with the Cube in Palo Alto studios today. And we're talking about an upcoming event. It's one of our favorites. This will be the fourth year that we've been doing it. And it's pager duty summit. And we're excited to have from the pager duty team. She's Caroline Gus, the VP of corporate marketing from pager duty. Caroline, Great to see you. >>Hi, Jeff. Great to see you again. >>Absolutely. So, you know, I was thinking before we turn on the cameras we've been doing pager duty for I think this will be like, say, our fourth year that first year was in the cool, um, cruise ship terminal pier. I gotta written appear 27 which was which was nice. And then the last two years, you've been in the, you know, historic Westin ST Francis in downtown San Francisco, which is a cool old venue, but oh, my goodness. You guys were busting at the seams last year. So this year, year to go virtual. There's a whole bunch of new things that that you could do in virtual that you couldn't do in physical space. At least when you're busting out of the seems so First off, Welcome and >>talk a little >>bit about planning for virtual versus planning for a physical event from, you know, head of marketing perspective. >>Absolutely. I mean, the first thing that's changed for us is the number of people that can come. It's five x the number of people that were able to join us, the Western last year. So we have, uh, we we expect to have 10,000 people registered on attending age duty summit. The second thing is thea share number of sessions that we can put on. Last year, I think we had around 25 sessions. This year we have between 40 and 50 on again. That's because we're not constrained by space and physical meeting rooms, so it's being a really exciting process for us. We've built a fantastic agenda on. It's very much personalized, you know, developers come to our event. They love our event for the opportunity to learn mixed with their peers, get best practices and hands on experience. So we have many more of those types of sessions when we have done previously, and that things like labs and Bird of Feather Sessions and Emma's. But we've also built a whole new track of content this year for executives. Page Julie has, um, many of the Fortune 500 on 4100 customers. We work very closely with CEO CTO, so we have built sessions that are really designed specifically for that audience on I think for us it's really opened up. The potential of this event made it so much broader and more appealing than we were able to do when we were, As you say, you know, somewhat confined by the location in downtown San Francisco. >>I think it's such an interesting point. Um, because before you were constrained, right, If you have X number of rooms over a couple of days, you know you've got to make hard decisions on breakouts and what could go in and what can't go in. And, you know, will there be enough demand for these for this session versus another session? Or from the perspective of an attendee, you know, do they have to make hard tradeoffs? I could only attend one session at one oclock on Tuesday and I got to make hard decisions. But this is, you said really opens up the opportunities. I think you said you doubled. You doubled your sessions on and you got five X a number of registrations. So I think, you know, way too many people think about what doesn't happen in digital vs talking about the things that you can do that are impossible in physical. >>Yeah, I think at the very beginning. Well, first of all, we held our Amir summit events in London in July. So that was great because we got Thio go through this experience once already. And what we learned was the rial removal of hurdles in this process. So, to your point about missing the session because you're attending another session, we were calling this sort of the Pelton version of events where you have live sessions. It's great to be there, live participate in the live Q and A, but equally you have an entire on demand library. So if you weren't able to go because there was something else at the same time, this is available on demand for you. So we are actually repeating live sessions on two consecutive day. So on the Monday we're on everything on the Tuesday I ask because show up again for life Q and A at the end of their sessions. But after that it's available forever on an on demand library. So for us, it was really removing hurdles in terms of the amount of content, the scheduling of the content on also the number of people that content in attend, no geographical boundaries anymore. It used to be that a customer of ours would think, Well, I'll send one or two people to the page duty summit. They could learn all the great innovation from page duty, and they'll bring it back to the team that's completely changed. You know, we have tens of 20 signing up on. All of them are able to get that experience firsthand. >>That's really interesting. I didn't didn't even think about, you know, kind of whole teams being able to attend down instead of just certain individuals because of budget constraints, or you can't send your whole team, you know, a way for a conference in a particular area. But the piece to that you're supporting that were over and over is that the net new registrants goes up so dramatically in terms of the names and and and who those individuals are because a lot of people just couldn't attend for for various reasons, whether it's cost, whether it's, uh, geography, whether it's they just can't take time off from from from leaving their primary job. So it's a really interesting opportunity to open up, um, the participation to such a much bigger like you said five x five X, and increase in the registration. That's pretty good number. >>That's right. Yeah. I mean, that crossed boundaries gone away. This event is free on DWhite. That's actually meant is, as I say, you know, larger teams from the same company are attending. Uh, In addition, we have a number of attendees who are not actually paid to duty customers right now to previously. This was very much a community event for, you know, our page duty users on now we actually have a large number of I asked, interested future customers that will be coming to the event. So that's really important for us. And also, I think, for our sponsor partners as well, because it's bordering out the audience for both of us. So let's >>talk about sponsors for a minute, because, um, one of the big things in virtual events that people are talking about quite often is. Okay, I can do the keynotes, and I could do the sessions. And now I have all these breakout sessions for, um, you know, training and certification and customer stories, etcetera. But when it comes to sponsors, right sponsors used, you know, go to events to set up a booth and hand out swag and wander badge. Right? And it really was feeding kind of a top level down funnel. That was really important. Well, now those have gone away. Physical events. So from the sponsor perspective, you know, what can they expect? What? What do you know the sponsor experience at pager duty Summit. Since I don't have a little tiny booth at the Westin ST Francis given out swag this year. >>Yeah. So one important thing is the agenda and how we're involving our sponsors in our agenda this time, something that we learned is we used to have very long keynotes. You know, the keynote could be an hour long on involved multiple components and people would stay in that room for a now er on did really stay and watch sessions all day. So we learned in the virtual format that we need to be shorter and more precise in our sessions on that opened up the opportunity to bring in more of our partners, our sponsorship partners. So zendesk Salesforce, Microsoft some examples. So they actually get to have their piece of both of our keynote sessions and of our technical product sessions. I'm really explain both the partnership with pager duty, but also they're called technology and the value that they provide customers. So I think that the presence of sponsors in content is much higher than it was before on we are still repeating the Expo format, so we actually do have on Expo Hall that any time there's breaking between sessions, you could go over to the Expo ball, and it actually runs throughout as well, and you can go in and you can talk to the teams. You can see product demos, so it's very much a virtual version of the Expo Hall where you went and you want around and you picked up a bit of swag, >>so you mentioned keynotes and and Jennifer and and the team has always had a fantastic keynotes. I mean, I just saw Jennifer being interviewed with Frank's Luqman and and Eric Juan from Zoom By by Curry, which was pretty amazing. I felt kind of jealous that I didn't get to do that. But, um, talk tell us a little bit about some of the speakers I know there'll be some some, you know, kind of big rally moment speakers as well as some that are more down to technical track or another track. Give us some highlights on on some of the people. I will be sharing the stage with Jennifer. >>Absolutely, I said. I think what's really unique about Page duty Summit is that we designed types of content for different types of attendees. So if you're a developer, your practitioner, we have something like this from Jones of Honeycombs, who's talking about who builds the tools that we all rely on today, and how do they collaborate to build them together in this virtual world? Or we have J. Paul Reed from Netflix talking about how to handle the stress of being involved in incidents, So that's really sessions for our core audience of developers who are part of our community and pager duty really helps them day to day with with that job. And then we have the more aspirational senior level speakers who could really learn from a ZA leader. So Bret Taylor, president and CEO of Salesforce, will be joining us on the main stage. You'll be talking about innovation and trust in today's world on. Then we have Derrick Johnson. He is president of N A A. C P, and he'll be talking about community engagement and particularly voter engagement, which is such an important topic for us right now. Aan den. We have leaders from within our customers who are really talking about the way they use pager duty thio drive change in their organization. So an example would be porches, bro. He runs digital for Fox on, and he's gonna be talking about digital acceleration. How large organization like Fox can really accelerate for this digital first world that we find ourselves living in right now, >>right? Well, you guys have such a developer focus because pager duty, the product of solution, has to integrate with so many other, um, infrastructure, you know, monitoring and, uh, and all of all those different systems because you guys were basically at the front line, you know, sending them the signals that go into those systems. So you have such a broad, you know, kind of ecosystem of technology partners. I don't know if people are familiar with all the integrations that you guys have built over the years, which is such a key piece of your go to market. >>That's right. I mean, we we like to say we're at the center of the digital ecosystem. We have 203 170 integrations on. That's important because we want anyone to be able to use page duty no matter what is in their technology stack technology stacks today are more complex than they've ever been before, particularly with businesses having to shift to this digital first model since we all began shelter in place, you know, we all are living through digital on working and learning through digital on DSO. The technology stacks that power that are more complicated than ever before. So by having 370 integrations, we really know that we conserve pretty much any set of services that your business. It's using. >>Yeah, we've all seen all the means right about who's who's pushing your digital transformation. You know, the CEO, the CEO or or covert. And we all know the answer to toe what's accelerated that whole process. So okay, but so before I let you go, I don't even think we've mentioned the date. So it's coming up Monday, September, September 21st through Thursday, September 24th not at the West End Online and again. What air? What are you hoping? You're kind of the key takeaways for the attendees after they come to the summit? >>Yeah, a couple of things. I mean, first of all, I think will be a sense of belonging. Three attendees, the uses, a pager duty. They are really the teams that are at the forefront of keeping our digital services working on. But what that means is responding to incidents we've actually seen. Ah, 38% increase in the volume of incidents on our platform since covert and shelter in place began. Wait 30 >>38% increase in incidents since mid March. >>That's correct. Since the beginning of on bear in mind incidents. Prior to that in the six months prior, they were pretty flat. There wasn't instant growth. But what we've also seen is a 20% improvement in the time that it takes to resolve an incident from five minutes down to four minutes. So what that really means is that the pager duty community is working really hard. They're improving their practices. Hopefully our platform, our platform is a key part of how, but these are some people under pressure, so I hope that people can come and they can experience a sense of belonging. They can learn from each other about experiences. How do you manage the stress of that situation on what are some of the great innovations that make your job easier in the year ahead? The second thing that we don't for that community is that we are offering certification for P. D. You page due to university for free this year. It's of course, with a value of $7500. Last year, you would attend page duty summit on you would sit through your sessions and you would learn and you would get certified. So this year it's offered for free. You take the course during summit. But you can also carry on if you miss anything for 30 days after. So we're really feeling that, you know, we're giving back there, offering a great program for certification and improved skills completely free to help our community in this in this time of pressure, >>right? Right. Well, it is a very passionate community, and, you know, we go to so many events and you can you can really tell it's palatable, you know, kind of what the where the tight communities are and where people are excited to see each other and where they help each other, not necessarily only at the event, but you know, throughout the year. And I think you know a huge shout out to Jennifer on the culture that she's built there because it is very warm. It's very inclusive, is very positive. And and that energy, you know, kind of goes throughout the whole company and ice the teaser. You know this in something that's built around a device that most of the kids today don't even know what a pager is, and just the whole concept of carrying a pager and being on call right and being responsible. It's a very different way to kind of look at the world when you're the one that has that thing on your hip and it's buzzing and someone's expecting, Ah, return call and you gotta fix something So you know, a huge shout out to keep a positive and you're smiling nice and big culture in a job where you're basically fixing broken things most of the time. >>Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's, I think, a joke that we make you know these things only break on Friday night or your wedding anniversary or Thanksgiving. But one of the announcements we're most excited about this year is the level of automation on artificial intelligence that we're building into our platform that is really going to reduce the number of interruptions that developers get when they are uncle. >>Yeah, I look forward to more conversations because we're gonna be doing a bunch of Cube interviews like Normal and, uh, you know, applied artificial intelligence, I think, is where all the excitement is. It's not a generic thing. It's where you applied in a specific application to get great business outcomes. So I look forward to that conversation and hopefully we'll be able to talk again and good luck to you and the team in the last few weeks of preparation. >>Thanks so much, Jeff. I've enjoyed talking to you. Thanks for having me. >>Alright. You too. And we'll see you later. Alright. She is Caroline. I'm Jeff. You're watching the Cube. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.

from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world this is a cube conversation you know for years marketers marketers have been pushing for more digital especially with their big conferences I heard forward-thinking CMO say the war will be won in digital but the sales teams love the belly-to-belly interaction so every year once or even sometimes more often big corporations have hosted gatherings of thousands or even tens of thousands of attendees these events were like rock concerts they had DJs in the hallway thumping music giant screens beautiful pitches highly produced videos thing a technical breakouts Food lines private dinners etc all come on it culminating in a customer appreciation event with a big-name band physical events are expensive but they generate tons of leads for the host companies and their partner ecosystems well then BOOM coronavirus hits and the marketing teams got what they wished for right overnight virtual events became a mandate if you don't have a solution you were in big trouble because your leads from these large events just dried up hello everyone this is Dave Allen day and welcome to this week's cube insights powered by ETR ETR is entering its quiet period and I won't be able to share any new data for a couple of weeks so rather than look back at the April survey in this breaking analysis we thought we'd take a pause and really talk about the virtual event landscape and just a few of the things that we've learned in the past 120 days now this isn't meant to be an exhaustive list but we do want to call out a few important items that we see is critical in this new digital world in the isolation economy every company scrambled they took one of three paths first companies either postpone their events to buy some time think like Dell technology world Google cloud next cube convey my MIT CBO event etc or to some companies flat-out canceled their events for the year until next year like snowflake and uipath forth number three they scrambled to deploy a virtual event and they went forward IBM think did this HPE discover Susac on AWS summits docker convey Monde a peggle world Vertica big data conference octane sa P sapphire and hundreds of others pushed forward so when this braking analysis I want to share some data from the cube what we've learned not only in the last hundred and twenty days but in ten years of doing events mostly physical and we want to share the new rules of events and event marketing and beyond so let's get right into it everyone knows events events have gone virtual and there are tons of people who could give you advice on approving your digital events including us and and I will in this segment but the first thing that everyone found out is they're going to attract far more people online with a free virtual event than they do with a paid physical event so removing time timing in the expensive travel dramatically increases the participation Tam the total available market here's a tweet from docker CEO Scott Johnson he says that he's looking forward to welcoming 50,000 people to his event this is based on registration data somewhere around 30,000 people logged into the live event so docker got 60% of the pre event registrants to actually log in which is outstanding but there's a lot more to this story I'll share some other stats that are worth mentioning by the way I got permission from docker to to share these numbers not surprising because the event was it was a huge success for such a small company in the end they got nearly 83,000 registrations and they continue to come in weeks after the event which was held in late May now marketers generally will cite 2 to 3 minutes as a respect-- respectable time on site for a web property docker logged in users averaged almost four and a half minutes on site that's the average the bell curve sauce superfans like this guy who was binge watching so this brings me to rule number one it's actually really easy to get people to sign up for free online events but it's not so easy to keep them there now I could talk all day about what docker did right and I'm gonna bring some examples in during this except this segment but the one thing docker did was they did a call for papers or a call for sessions and that's a lot of work but if you look at the docket on speaker list the content is all community driven not all but mostly community driven talker had to break some eggs and reject some folks but it also had a sponsor track so it gave folks another avenue to participate so big success for docker they definitely did it right which brings us to new rule number two attention is precious you got to create high-quality content and realize that you have much less time with participants than if they were in person now unfortunately the doctor docker example is a bit of an outlier it hasn't always been this pretty remember that scene in the social network the movie when a duardo pulled the funding on the servers just to get marks attention remember how Jesse Eisenberg the actor who played Zuckerberg reacted everybody else we don't crash ever if the server's are down for even a day our entire reputation is irreversibly destroyed the whole point well some of the big tech companies crashed their servers and they say there's no such thing as bad press but look at look what happened to s AP and s AP apologized publicly and its CEO told people that they made a mistake in outsourcing their event platform so this brings us to new rule number three don't crash now I come back to Dhaka Khan for a second here's a tweet from a developer who shared the network traffic profile of his network before and during docker con you can see no glitches I mean I don't mean to pick on sa P they they owned the problem and look s AP had a huge attention attendance at its digital event more than 200,000 people and over a million views so Wow you'll kill me with that problem but it underscores the importance of scaling and s AP you have to say was not alone there have been lots of fails from much smaller events here's an example that was really frustrating you try to log in at 7:59 but the event doesn't start until 8:00 sharp really come on back in 60 seconds and in another example there was a slide failure I mean many of these virtual events are glorified webinars so if you're going to rely on slide where make sure the slides will render its scale you maybe embed them into the video you know but at least this company had a back-up plan here's another example and I've redacted the email because I'm not here to throw anyone under the bus well you know kind of but but no reason to name names you know who they are but in this case an old legacy webinar platform failed and they had to move to WebEx and again at least there was a back-up plan so you know it's been tough in a lot of these cases here's a tweet from Jason Reed it kind of summed sums it up now what does he mean by vendors are not getting the job done not enough creativity well not only were platforms failing they weren't performing adequately but the virtual experience is leaving many users unenthused they're they're just one alt-tab away from something better if the virtual event fails to engage them so new rule number four is virtual events that look like webinars actually our webinar webinars I mean in fairness you know the industry had to pivot with no notice but this is why I always tell people start with the outcome that you want and work backwards that'll inform you as to the content strategy the new roles you need to assign and make no mistakes there are new rules you know there's no site inspection virtual and then you got to figure out what you want to use your experience to be there's a whole lot to figure out and this next next one is a bit of a throwaway because yeah it's so obvious and everyone talks about it but I want to bring it up because it's important because I'm amazed at how many virtual event speakers really haven't thought through their setup you can look good you know or at least less bad get those things called books and raise up the laptop figure out some better audio your better yet get a good kit send it to their home with a nice camera and a solid mic maybe you know a clearer IFB comms for the ear spend some money to look good just as you might go and buy a nice outfit even if you're a developer put on a clean t-shirt so rule number five don't cheap out on production value get your guests a good set up and coach them up it doesn't have to be over the top no just a bit thought out okay one of the biggest mistakes I've seen is event organisers they become enamored with a platform and the features of that platform that really don't support their objectives kind of feature creep or they have so many competing objectives and masters that they're serving that they lose sight of the user experience and then the event becomes a buffet of unused features rather than a buffet of engaging content now many have told me that Dave these virtual events are too long there's too much content now I don't necessarily agree I really think if you have something to say you should say it as long as you do it right and you keep people engaged so I want to talk a little bit about a to of the meteor events that we attended one was octane twenty20 hosted by octo the identity management security player and then IBM think 2020 they called it the the think digital event experience and they both had multi day events with lots of content they both organized sessions by topic and made it pretty easy to find stuff and all assessing sessions had a reasonably consistent look and feel to them which kind of helped the production value IBM had content organized and categorized which made things easy to find and they both had good search and with IBM you could go directly from the list of topics right into the videos which I really liked very easy and intuitive and as you can see here in this octane video they had a nice and very ambitious agenda that was really quite well organized and things were pretty easy to find as you can see with this crisp filtering on the left hand side and in really nice search but one of the things that has been frustrating with most of the events that I've watched is you can't get to the sessions directly from the agenda you got to go back out for some linear path and find the content and it's somewhat confusing so I want to come back to the docker count example because I think there were two things that I found interesting and useful with docker con you know this got George nailed it when he said this is how you display a virtual conference what's relevant about this picture is you have multiple simultaneous sessions running live and concurrently and you can pop in and out of them you can easily see the sessions and this tile and there's a red line this linear clock that's running in real time to show you where you are in the event agenda versus in a time of day so I felt like with docker that as a user user you're really connected to the event you come to the site and there's a hero video very easy to find the content and in fact you can't miss it it's not a sales pitch to get to the content and then I really liked what what George change was talking about in terms of the agenda and the tile layout you can see they ran simultaneous sessions and at one point up to seven at once and they gave their sponsors a track on the agenda which is very easy to navigate but what I really like as well is when you click on a tile it takes you directly to the session video and you can see the chat which docker preserved in the PO event mode and you have this easy-to-follow agenda and again you can go directly to the session video and in the chat from the agenda so many paths to find the content I mean something so simple is navigating directly from the agenda to the session most events haven't done that they make you back out and then what I call this linear manner and then go forward and find the sessions that you want and then dive in now maybe they're trying to simulate walking to a session in a Las Vegas Convention Center because it takes about that long to figure out where most of these events in these sessions live so rule number six is make it easy to discover and consume content sounds so simple why is it not happening in most events okay I'm running out of time so I want to encapsulate a number of items in one idea that we talk about all the time at the cube I ran a little survey of the day and someone asked does it really make sense to cram educational content product content partner content customer content rally content and leadership content into the constrain confines of an arbitrary one or two-day window I thought that was an interesting comment now it doesn't necessarily mean shorten up the virtual event which a lot of people think should happen people complain that these things are too long well let me leave you with this it's actually not just about events what do I mean by that well you know how everyone says that all companies are software companies or every company is a SAS company well guess what we believe that every company is a media company in 2004 at the low point of its reputation Microsoft launched channel 9 it was named after the United Airlines channel 9 that lets you listen in to the pilots and their unfiltered conversations kind of cool Microsoft understood that having an authentic voice with which to communicate to developers and serve its community was a smart thing to do and that is the key point channel 9 is about community it's not about audience metrics or lead generation both important things but Microsoft they launched this site understanding the leverage it gets out of its community of developers and instead of treating them like leads they created a site to help developers learn so rule number seven is get your best media mojo on one of the biggest failures I see with physical events and it's clearly carrying over to digital is the failure to optimize the post-event opportunity and experience so just like physical events when the event is over I see companies and their employees they're so burnt out after a virtual event because they feel like they've just given birth and what do they do now after the event they take some time off they got to recharge and when they come back they're swamped and so they're on to the next project it might be another event it might be a webinar series or some regional summits or whatever now it's interesting it feels like all tech companies talk about these days is breaking down silos but most of these parent and child events are disconnected silos sure maybe the data around the events is consolidated into a marketing cloud maybe so that you can nurture leads okay that's fine but what about the community kovat has given us a great opportunity to reimagine how we serve communities and one thing I'm certain about is that physical events they're going to come back at some point in some form but when they do there's gonna be a stronger digital component attached to them hybrids will emerge and some will serve communities better than others and in our opinion the ones that do the best job in digital and serving their communities are gonna win the marketing Wars so ask yourself how are you serving your community are you serving the best way that you can is a lead conversion your number one metric that's okay there's nothing wrong with that but how are your content consumption metrics looking what are you measuring what does your Arc of content look like what's your content and an organic media strategy what does your media stack look like media stack you ask what do you mean Dave well you nailed physical and then you were forced to do virtual overnight eventually there's going to be a hybrid that emerges so there's physical at the bottom and then there's a virtual layer and then you get this hybrid layer at some point on top of that at the very top of the stack you got apps social media you got corporate content you got TV like channel 9 you have video library's website you have tools for agile media you got media production and distribution tooling remember customers will be entering from any one of these layers of that stack and they'll be looking to you for guidance inspiration learning vision product knowledge how to's etc and you'd be delivering that primarily through content so your media stack should be designed to serve your community events software yeah sure but it's much more than that we believe that this stack will emerge not as a monolithic beast but rather as a set of scalable cloud services and api's think of paths for media that you can skin yes of course but also one that you can control add value to integrate with other platforms and fit your business as your community demands and remember new roles are emerging as a result of this pandemic and the pivot to digital the things are different really mostly from from most physical events is that it's very important to think about these roles and one of the important roles is this designer or UX developer that can actually do some coding and API integration think of it as a DevOps for digital organizations that's emerging organizations like yours will want self-service and sometimes out-of-the-box functionality and features for sure no question but we believe that as a media producer you will want to customize your media experience for your community and this work will require new skills that you haven't really prioritized in the past what what do you think what's your vision as to how this will all play out and unfold do you buy that all companies must become media companies or at least media savvy not in the sense of Corp comms but really as an organic media producer tweet me at devonté or email me at David Galante at Silicon angle comm or comment on my LinkedIn post who would react next week with some data from et our survey sphere thanks for watching this wiki bond cube insights powered by ETR this is Dave Volante we'll see you next time [Music]

(electronic music) >> From Santa Clara, California in the heart of Silicon Valley, its theCUBE. Covering Altitude 2020, brought to you by Aviatrix. (electronic music) >> Female pilot: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, this is your captain speaking, we will soon be taking off on our way to altitude. (upbeat music) Please keep your seat belts fastened and remain in your seat. We will be experiencing turbulence, until we are above the clouds. (thunder blasting) (electronic music) (seatbelt alert sounds) Ladies and gentlemen, we are now cruising at altitude. Sit back and enjoy the ride. (electronic music) >> Female pilot: Altitude is a community of thought leaders and pioneers, cloud architects and enlightened network engineers, who have individually and are now collectively, leading their own IT teams and the industry. On a path to lift cloud networking above the clouds. Empowering enterprise IT to architect, design and control their own cloud network, regardless of the turbulent clouds beneath them. It's time to gain altitude. Ladies and gentlemen, Steve Mullaney, president and CEO of Aviatrix. The leader of multi-cloud networking. (electronic music) (audience clapping) >> Steve: All right. (audience clapping) Good morning everybody, here in Santa Clara as well as to the millions of people watching the livestream worldwide. Welcome to Altitude 2020, all right. So, we've got a fantastic event, today, I'm really excited about the speakers that we have today and the experts that we have and really excited to get started. So, one of the things I wanted to share was this is not a one-time event. This is not a one-time thing that we're going to do. Sorry for the Aviation analogy, but, you know, Sherry Wei, aviatrix means female pilot so everything we do has an aviation theme. This is a take-off, for a movement. This isn't an event, this is a take-off of a movement. A multi-cloud networking movement and community that we're inviting all of you to become part of. And why we're doing that, is we want to enable enterprises to rise above the clouds, so to speak and build their network architecture, regardless of which public cloud they're using. Whether it's one or more of these public clouds. So the good news, for today, there's lots of good news but this is one good news, is we don't have any PowerPoint presentations, no marketing speak. We know that marketing people have their own language. We're not using any of that, and no sales pitches, right? So instead, what are we doing? We're going to have expert panels, we've got Simon Richard, of Gartner here. We've got ten different network architects, cloud architects, real practitioners that are going to share their best practices and their real world experiences on their journey to the multi-cloud. So, before we start, everybody know what today is? In the U.S., it's Super Tuesday. I'm not going to get political, but Super Tuesday there was a bigger, Super Tuesday that happened 18 months ago. And Aviatrix employees know what I'm talking about. Eighteen months ago, on a Tuesday, every enterprise said, "I'm going to go to the cloud". And so what that was, was the Cambrian explosion, for cloud, for the enterprise. So, Frank Cabri, you know what a Cambrian explosion is. He had to look it up on Google. 500 million years ago, what happened, there was an explosion of life where it went from very simple single-cell organisms to very complex, multi-cell organisms. Guess what happened 18 months ago, on a Tuesday, I don't really know why, but every enterprise, like I said, all woke up that day and said, "Now I'm really going to go to cloud" and that Cambrian explosion of cloud meant that I'm moving from a very simple, single cloud, single-use case, simple environment, to a very complex, multi-cloud, complex use case environment. And what we're here today, is we're going to go undress that and how do you handle those, those complexities? And, when you look at what's happening, with customers right now, this is a business transformation, right? People like to talk about transitions, this is a transformation and it's actually not just a technology transformation, it's a business transformation. It started from the CEO and the Boards of enterprise customers where they said, "I have an existential threat to the survival of my company." If you look at every industry, who they're worried about is not the other 30-year-old enterprise. What they're worried about is the three year old enterprise that's leveraging cloud, that's leveraging AI, and that's where they fear that they're going to actually wiped out, right? And so, because of this existential threat, this is CEO led, this is Board led, this is not technology led, it is mandated in the organizations. We are going to digitally transform our enterprise, because of this existential threat and the movement to cloud is going to enable us to go do that. And so, IT is now put back in charge. If you think back just a few years ago, in cloud, it was led by DevOps, it was led by the applications and it was, like I said, before the Cambrian explosion, it was very simple. Now, with this Cambrian explosion, an enterprise is getting very serious and mission critical. They care about visibility, they care about control, they care about compliance, conformance, everything, governance. IT is in charge and that's why we're here today to discuss that. So, what we're going to do today, is much of things but we're going to validate this journey with customers. >> Steve: Did they see the same thing? We're going to validate the requirements for multi-cloud because, honestly, I've never met an enterprise that is not going to be multicloud. Many are one cloud today but they all say, " I need to architect my network for multiple clouds", because that's just what, the network is there to support the applications and the applications will run in whatever cloud it runs best in and you have to be prepared for that. The second thing is, is architecture. Again, with IT in charge, you, architecture matters. Whether its your career, whether its how you build your house, it doesn't matter. Horrible architecture, your life is horrible forever. Good architecture, your life is pretty good. So, we're going to talk about architecture and how the most fundamental and critical part of that architecture and that basic infrastructure is the network. If you don't get that right, nothing works, right? Way more important than compute. Way more important than storage. Network is the foundational element of your infrastructure. Then we're going to talk about day two operations. What does that mean? Well day one is one day of your life, where you wire things up they do and beyond. I tell everyone in networking and IT -- it's every day of your life. And if you don't get that right, your life is bad forever. And so things like operations, visibility, security, things like that, how do I get my operations team to be able to handle this in an automated way because it's not just about configuring it in the cloud, it's actually about how do I operationalize it? And that's a huge benefit that we bring as Aviatrix. And then the last thing we're going to talk and it's the last panel we have, I always sayyou can't forget about the humans, right? So all this technology, all these things that we're doing, it's always enabled by the humans. At the end of the day, if the humans fight it, it won't get deployed. And we have a massive skills gap, in cloud and we also have a massive skills shortage. You have everyone in the world trying to hire cloud network architects, right? There's just not enough of them going around. So, at Aviatrix, we said as leaders do, "We're going to help address that issue and try to create more people." We created a program, what we call the ACE Program, again, aviation theme, it stands for Aviatrix Certified Engineer. Very similar to what Cisco did with CCIEs where Cisco taught you about IP networking, a little bit of Cisco, we're doing the same thing, we're going to teach network architects about multicloud networking and architecture and yeah, you'll get a little bit of Aviatrix training in there, but this is the missing element for people's careers and also within their organizations. So we're going to go talk about that. So, great, great event, great show. We're going to try to keep it moving. I next want to introduce, my host, he is the best in the business, you guys have probably seen him multiple, many times, he is the co-CEO and co founder of theCUBE, John Furrier. (audience clapping) (electronic music) >> John: Okay, awesome, great speech there, awesome. >> Yeah. >> I totally agree with everything you said about the explosion happening and I'm excited, here at the heart of silicon valley to have this event. It's a special digital event with theCUBE and Aviatrix, where we're live-streaming to, millions of people, as you said, maybe not a million. >> Maybe not a million. (laughs) Really to take this program to the world and this is really special for me, because multi-cloud is the hottest wave in cloud. And cloud-native networking is fast becoming the key engine, of the innovations, so we got an hour and a half of action-packed programming. We have a customer panel. Two customer panels. Before that Gartner's going to come out, talk about the industry. We have global system integrators, that will talk about, how their advising and building these networks and cloud native networking. And then finally the ACE's, the Aviatrix Certified Engineers, are going to talk more about their certifications and the expertise needed. So, let's jump right in, let's ask, Simon Richard to come on stage, from Gartner. We'll kick it all off. (electronic music) (clapping) >> John: Hi, can I help you. Okay, so kicking things off, getting started. Gartner, the industry experts on cloud. Really kind of more, cue your background. Talk about your background before you got to Gartner? >> Simon: Before being at Gartner, I was a chief network architect, of a Fortune 500 company, that with thousands of sites over the world and I've been doing everything in IT from a C programmer, in the 90, to a security architect, to a network engineer, to finally becoming a network analyst. >> So you rode the wave. Now you're covering the marketplace with hybrid cloud and now moving quickly to multi-cloud, is really what everyone is talking about. >> Yes. >> Cloud-native's been discussed, but the networking piece is super important. How do you see that evolving? >> Well, the way we see Enterprise adapting, cloud. The first thing you do about networking, the initial phases they either go in a very ad hoc way. Is usually led by none IT, like a shadow IT, or application people, sometime a DevOps team and it just goes as, it's completely unplanned. They create VPC's left and right with different account and they create mesh to manage them and they have Direct Connect or Express Route to any of them. So that's the first approach and on the other side. again within our first approach you see what I call, the lift and shift. Where we see like enterprise IT trying to, basically replicate what they have in a data center, in the Cloud. So they spend a lot of time planning, doing Direct Connect, putting Cisco routers and F5 and Citrix and any checkpoint, Palo Alto device, that in a sense are removing that to the cloud. >> I got to ask you, the aha moment is going to come up a lot, in one our panels, is where people realize, that it's a multi-cloud world. I mean, they either inherit clouds, certainly they're using public cloud and on-premises is now more relevant than ever. When's that aha moment? That you're seeing, where people go, "Well I got to get my act together and get on this cloud." >> Well the first, right, even before multi-cloud. So there is two approach's. The first one, like the adult way doesn't scare. At some point IT has to save them, 'cause they don't think about the tools, they don't think about operation, they have a bunch of VPC and multiple cloud. The other way, if you do the lift and shift way, they cannot take any advantages of the cloud. They lose elasticity, auto-scaling, pay by the drink. All these agility features. So they both realize, okay, neither of these ways are good, so I have to optimize that. So I have to have a mix of what I call, the cloud native services, within each cloud. So they start adapting, like all the AWS Construct, Azure Construct or Google Construct and that's what I call the optimal phase. But even that they realize, after that, they are all very different, all these approaches different, the cloud are different. Identities is constantly, difficult to manage across clouds. I mean, for example, anybody who access' accounts, there's subscription, in Azure and GCP, their projects. It's a real mess, so they realized, well I don't really like constantly use the cloud product and every cloud, that doesn't work. So I have, I'm going multi-cloud, I like to abstract all of that. I still want to manage the cloud from an EPI point of view, I don't necessarily want to bring my incumbent data center products, but I have to do that and in a more EPI driven cloud environment. >> So, the not scaling piece that you where mentioning, that's because there's too many different clouds? >> Yes. >> That's the least they are, so what are they doing? What are they, building different development teams? Is it software? What's the solution? >> Well, the solution is to start architecting the cloud. That's the third phase. I called that the multi-cloud architect phase, where they have to think about abstraction that works across cloud. Fact, even across one cloud it might not scale as well, If you start having like ten thousand security agreement, anybody who has that doesn't scale. You have to manage that. If you have multiple VPC, it doesn't scale. You need a third-party, identity provider. In variously scales within one cloud, if you go multiple cloud, it gets worse and worse. >> Steve, weigh in here. What's your thoughts? >> I thought we said this wasn't going to be a sales pitch for Aviatrix. (laughter) You just said exactly what we do, so anyway, that's a joke. What do you see in terms of where people are, in that multi-cloud? So, like lot of people, you know, everyone I talk to, started at one cloud, right, but then they look and then say okay but I'm now going to move to Azure and I'm going to move to... (trails off) Do you see a similar thing? >> Well, yes. They are moving but there's not a lot of application, that uses three cloud at once, they move one app in Azure, one app in AWS and one app in Google. That's what we see so far. >> Okay, yeah, one of the mistakes that people think, is they think multi-cloud. No one is ever going to go multi-cloud, for arbitrage. They're not going to go and say, well, today I might go into Azure, 'cause I get a better rate on my instance. Do you agree? That's never going to happen. What I've seen with enterprise, is I'm going to put the workload in the app, the app decides where it runs best. That may be Azure, maybe Google and for different reasons and they're going to stick there and they're not going to move. >> Let me ask you guys-- >> But the infrastructure, has to be able to support, from a networking team. >> Yes. >> Be able to do that. Do you agree with that? >> Yes, I agree. And one thing is also very important, is connecting to the cloud, is kind of the easiest thing. So, the wide area network part of the cloud, connectivity to the cloud is kind of simple. >> Steve: I agree. >> IP's like VPN, Direct Connect, Express Route. That's the simple part, what's difficult and even the provisioning part is easy. You can use Terraform and create VPC's and Vnet's across your three cloud provider. >> Steve: Right. >> What's difficult is that they choose the operation. So we'll define day two operation. What does that actually mean? >> Its just the day to day operations, after you know, the natural, lets add an app, lets add a server, lets troubleshoot a problem. >> Something changes, now what do you do? >> So what's the big concerns? I want to just get back to the cloud native networking, because everyone kind of knows what cloud native apps are. That's been the hot trend. What is cloud native networking? How do you guys, define that? Because that seems to be the hardest part of the multi-cloud wave that's coming, is cloud native networking. >> Well there's no, you know, official Gartner definition but I can create one on the spot. >> John: Do it. (laughter) >> I just want to leverage the Cloud Construct and the cloud EPI. I don't want to have to install, like a... (trails off) For example, the first version was, let's put a virtual router that doesn't even understand the cloud environment. >> Right. If I have if I have to install a virtual machine, it has to be cloud aware. It has to understand the security group, if it's a router. It has to be programmable, to the cloud API. And understand the cloud environment. >> And one thing I hear a lot from either CSO's, CIO's or CXO's in general, is this idea of, I'm definitely not going API. So, its been an API economy. So API is key on that point, but then they say. Okay, I need to essentially have the right relationship with my suppliers, aka you called it above the clouds. So the question is... What do I do from an architectural standpoint? Do I just hire more developers and have different teams, because you mentioned that's a scale point. How do you solve this problem of, okay, I got AWS, I got GCP, or Azure, or whatever. Do I just have different teams or do I just expose EPI's? Where is that optimization? Where's the focus? >> Well, I think what you need, from a network point of view is a way, a control plane across the three clouds. And be able to use the API's of the cloud, to build networks but also to troubleshoot them and do day to day operation. So you need a view across the three clouds, that takes care of routing, connectivity. >> Steve: Performance. >> John: That's the Aviatrix plugin, right there. >> Steve: Yeah. So, how do you see, so again, your Gartner, you see the industry. You've been a network architect. How do you see this this playing out? What are the legacy incumbent client server, On Prem networking people, going to do? >> Well they need to.. >> Versus people like a Aviatrix? How do you see that playing out? >> Well obviously, all the incumbents, like Arista, Cisco, Juniper, NSX. >> Steve: Right. >> They want to basically do the lift and shift part, they want to bring, and you know, VMware want to bring in NSX on the cloud, they call that "NSX everywhere" and Cisco want to bring in ACI to the cloud, they call that "ACI Anywhere". So, everyone's.. (trails off) And then there's CloudVision from Arista, and Contrail is in the cloud. So, they just want to bring the management plane, in the cloud, but it's still based, most of them, is still based on putting a VM in them and controlling them. You extend your management console to the cloud, that's not truly cloud native. >> Right. >> Cloud native you almost have to build it from scratch. >> We like to call that cloud naive. >> Cloud naive, yeah. >> So close, one letter, right? >> Yes. >> That was a big.. (slurs) Reinvent, take the T out of Cloud Native. It's Cloud Naive. (laughter) >> That went super viral, you guys got T-shirts now. I know you're loving that. >> Steve: Yeah. >> But that really, ultimately, is kind of a double-edged sword. You can be naive on the architecture side and ruleing that. And also suppliers or can be naive. So how would you define who's naive and who's not? >> Well, in fact, their evolving as well, so for example, in Cisco, it's a little bit more native than other ones, because there really is, "ACI in the cloud", you can't really figure API's out of the cloud. NSX is going that way and so is Arista, but they're incumbent, they have their own tools, its difficult for them. They're moving slowly, so it's much easier to start from scratch. Even you, like, you know, a network company that started a few years ago. There's only really two, Aviatrix was the first one, they've been there for at least three or four years. >> Steve: Yeah. >> And there's other one's, like Akira, for example that just started. Now they're doing more connectivity, but they want to create an overlay network, across the cloud and start doing policies and things. Abstracting all the clouds within one platform. >> So, I got to ask you. I interviewed an executive at VMware, Sanjay Poonen, he said to me at RSA last week. Oh, there'll only be two networking vendors left, Cisco and VMware. (laughter) >> What's you're response to that? Obviously when you have these waves, these new brands that emerge, like Aviatrix and others. I think there'll be a lot of startups coming out of the woodwork. How do you respond to that comment? >> Well there's still a data center, there's still, like a lot, of action on campus and there's the wan. But from the cloud provisioning and cloud networking in general, I mean, they're behind I think. You know, you don't even need them to start with, you can, if you're small enough, you can just keep.. If you have AWS, you can use the AWS construct, they have to insert themselves, I mean, they're running behind. From my point of view. >> They are, certainly incumbents. I love the term Andy Jess uses at Amazon web services. He uses "Old guard, new guard", to talk about the industry. What does the new guard have to do? The new brands that are emerging. Is it be more DevOp's oriented? Is it NetSec ops? Is it NetOps? Is it programmability? These are some of the key discussions we've been having. What's your view, on how you see this programmability? >> The most important part is, they have to make the network simple for the Dev teams. You cannot make a phone call and get a Vline in two weeks anymore. So if you move to the cloud, you have to make that cloud construct as simple enough, so that for example, a Dev team could say, "Okay, I'm going to create this VPC, but this VPC automatically associates your account, you cannot go out on the internet. You have to go to the transit VPC, so there's lot of action in terms of, the IAM part and you have to put the control around them to. So to make it as simple as possible. >> You guys, both. You're the CEO of Aviatrix, but also you've got a lot of experience, going back to networking, going back to the, I call it the OSI days. For us old folks know what that means, but, you guys know what this means. I want to ask you the question. As you look at the future of networking, you hear a couple objections. "Oh, the cloud guys, they got networking, we're all set with them. How do you respond to the fact that networking's changing and the cloud guys have their own networking. What's some of the paying points that's going on premises of these enterprises? So are they good with the clouds? What needs... What are the key things that's going on in networking, that makes it more than just the cloud networking? What's your take on it? >> Well as I said earlier. Once you could easily provision in the cloud, you can easily connect to the cloud, its when you start troubleshooting applications in the cloud and try to scale. So that's where the problem occurred. >> Okay, what's your take on it. >> And you'll hear from the customers, that we have on stage and I think what happens is all the clouds by definition, designed to the 80-20 rule which means they'll design 80% of the basic functionality. And then lead to 20% extra functionality, that of course every Enterprise needs, to leave that to ISV's, like Aviatrix. Because why? Because they have to make money, they have a service and they can't have huge instances, for functionality that not everybody needs. So they have to design to the common and that, they all do it, right? They have to and then the extra, the problem is, that Cambrian explosion, that I talked about with enterprises. That's what they need. They're the ones who need that extra 20%. So that's what I see, there's always going to be that extra functionality. In an automated and simple way, that you talked about, but yet powerful. With the up with the visibility and control, that they expect of On Prem. That kind of combination, that Yin and the Yang, that people like us are providing. >> Simon I want to ask you? We're going to ask some of the cloud architect, customer panels, that same question. There's pioneer's doing some work here and there's also the laggards who come in behind their early adopters. What's going to be the tipping point? What are some of these conversations, that the cloud architects are having out there? Or what's the signs, that they need to be on this, multi-cloud or cloud native networking trend? What are some of the signal's that are going on in the environment? What are some of the thresholds? Are things that are going on, that they can pay attention to? >> Well, once they have the application on multiple cloud and they have to get wake up at two in the morning, to troubleshoot them. They'll know it's important. (laughter) So, I think that's when the rubber will hit the road. But, as I said, it's easier to prove, at any case. Okay, it's AWS, it's easy, user transit gateway, put a few VPC's and you're done. And you create some presents like Equinox and do a Direct Connect and Express Route with Azure. That looks simple, its the operations, that's when they'll realize. Okay, now I need to understand! How cloud networking works? I also need a tool, that gives me visibility and control. But not only that, I need to understand the basic underneath it as well. >> What are some of the day in the life scenarios. you envision happening with multi-cloud, because you think about what's happening. It kind of has that same vibe of interoperability, choice, multi-vendor, 'cause they're multi-cloud. Essentially multi-vendor. These are kind of old paradigms, that we've lived through with client server and internet working. What are some of the scenarios of success, that might be possible? Will be possible, with multi-cloud and cloud native networking. >> Well, I think, once you have good enough visibility, to satisfy your customers, not only, like to, keep the service running and application running. But to be able to provision fast enough, I think that's what you want to achieve. >> Simon, final question. Advice for folks watching on the Livestream, if they're sitting there as a cloud architect or CXO. What's your advice to them right now, in this market, 'cause obviously, public cloud check, hybrid cloud, they're working on that. That gets on premises done, now multi-cloud's right behind it. What's your advice? >> The first thing they should do, is really try to understand cloud networking. For each of their cloud providers and then understand the limitations. And, is what the cloud service provider offers enough? Or you need to look to a third party, but you don't look at a third party to start with. Especially an incumbent one, so it's tempting to say "I have a bunch of F5 experts", nothing against F5. I'm going to bring my F5 in the Cloud, when you can use an ELB, that automatically understand eases and auto scaling and so on. And you understand that's much simpler, but sometimes you need your F5, because you have requirements. You have like iRules and that kind of stuff, that you've used for years. 'cause you cannot do it. Okay, I have requirement and that's not met, I'm going to use Legacy Star and then you have to start thinking, okay, what about visibility control, above the true cloud. But before you do that you have to understand the limitations of the existing cloud providers. First, try to be as native as possible, until things don't work, after that you can start thinking of the cloud. >> Great insight, Simon. Thank you. >> That's great. >> With Gartner, thank you for sharing. (electronic music) >> Welcome back to ALTITUDE 2020. For the folks in the live stream, I'm John Furrier, Steve Mullaney, CEO of Aviatrix. For our first of two customer panels with cloud network architects, we've got Bobby Willoughby, AEGON Luis Castillo from National Instruments and David Shinnick with FactSet. Guys, welcome to the stage for this digital event. Come on up. (audience clapping) (upbeat music) Hey good to see you, thank you. Customer panel, this is my favorite part. We get to hear the real scoop, we get the Gardener giving us the industry overview. Certainly, multi-cloud is very relevant, and cloud-native networking is a hot trend with the live stream out there in the digital events. So guys, let's get into it. The journey is, you guys are pioneering this journey of multi-cloud and cloud-native networking and are soon going to be a lot more coming. So I want to get into the journey. What's it been like? Is it real? You've got a lot of scar tissue? What are some of the learnings? >> Absolutely. Multi-cloud is whether or not we accept it, as network engineers is a reality. Like Steve said, about two years ago, companies really decided to just bite the bullet and move there. Whether or not we accept that fact, we need to not create a consistent architecture across multiple clouds. And that is challenging without orchestration layers as you start managing different tool sets and different languages across different clouds. So it's really important to start thinking about that. >> Guys on the other panelists here, there's different phases of this journey. Some come at it from a networking perspective, some come in from a problem troubleshooting, what's your experiences? >> From a networking perspective, it's been incredibly exciting, it's kind of once in a generational opportunity to look at how you're building out your network. You can start to embrace things like infrastructure as code that maybe your peers on the systems teams have been doing for years, but it just never really worked on-prem. So it's really exciting to look at all the opportunities that we have and all of the interesting challenges that come up that you get to tackle. >> And effects that you guys are mostly AWS, right? >> Yeah. Right now though, we are looking at multiple clouds. We have production workloads running in multiple clouds today but a lot of the initial work has been with Amazon. >> And you've seen it from a networking perspective, that's where you guys are coming at it from? >> Yup. >> Awesome. How about you? >> We evolve more from a customer requirement perspective. Started out primarily as AWS, but as the customer needed more resources from Azure like HPC, Azure AD, things like that, even recently, Google analytics, our journey has evolved into more of a multi-cloud environment. >> Steve, weigh in on the architecture because this is going to be a big conversation, and I wanted you to lead this section. >> I think you guys agree the journey, it seems like the journey started a couple of years ago. Got real serious, the need for multi-cloud, whether you're there today. Of course, it's going to be there in the future. So that's really important. I think the next thing is just architecture. I'd love to hear what you, had some comments about architecture matters, it all starts, every enterprise I talked to. Maybe talk about architecture and the importance of architects, maybe Bobby. >> From architecture perspective, we started our journey five years ago. >> Wow, okay. >> And we're just now starting our fourth evolution over network architect. And we call it networking security net sec, versus just as network. And that fourth-generation architecture should be based primarily upon the Palo Alto Networks and Aviatrix. Aviatrix to new orchestration piece of it. But that journey came because of the need for simplicity, the need for a multi-cloud orchestration without us having to go and do reprogramming efforts across every cloud as it comes along. >> I guess the other question I also had around architecture is also... Luis maybe just talk about it. I know we've talked a little bit about scripting, and some of your thoughts on that. >> Absolutely. So for us, we started creating the network constructs with cloud formation, and we've stuck with that for the most part. What's interesting about that is today, on-premise, we have a lot of automation around how we provision networks, but cloud formation has become a little bit like the new manual for us. We're now having issues with having to automate that component and making it consistent with our on-premise architecture and making it consistent with Azure architecture and Google cloud. So, it's really interesting to see companies now bring that layer of abstraction that SD-WAN brought to the wound side, now it's going up into the cloud networking architecture. >> Great. So on the fourth generation, you mentioned you're on the fourth-gen architecture. What have you learned? Is there any lessons, scratch issue, what to avoid, what worked? What was the path that you touched? >> It's probably the biggest lesson there is that when you think you finally figured it out, you haven't. Amazon will change something, Azure change something. Transit Gateway is a game-changer. And listening to the business requirements is probably the biggest thing we need to do upfront. But I think from a simplicity perspective, like I said, we don't want to do things four times. We want to do things one time, we want be able to write to an API which Aviatrix has and have them do the orchestration for us. So that we don't have to do it four times. >> How important is architecture in the progression? Is it do you guys get thrown in the deep end, to solve these problems, are you guys zooming out and looking at it? How are you guys looking at the architecture? >> You can't get off the ground if you don't have the network there. So all of those, we've gone through similar evolutions, we're on our fourth or fifth evolution. I think about what we started off with Amazon without Direct Connect Gateway, without Transit Gateway, without a lot of the things that are available today, kind of the 80, 20 that Steve was talking about. Just because it wasn't there doesn't mean we didn't need it. So we needed to figure out a way to do it, we couldn't say, "Oh, you need to come back to the network team in a year, and maybe Amazon will have a solution for it." We need to do it now and evolve later and maybe optimize or change the way you're doing things in the future. But don't sit around and wait, you can't. >> I'd love to have you guys each individually answer this question for the live streams that comes up a lot. A lot of cloud architects out in the community, what should they be thinking about the folks that are coming into this proactively and, or realizing the business benefits are there? What advice would you guys give them on architecture? What should be they'd be thinking about, and what are some guiding principles you could share? >> So I would start with looking at an architecture model that can spread and give consistency to the different cloud vendors that you will absolutely have to support. Cloud vendors tend to want to pull you into using their native tool set, and that's good if only it was realistic to talk about only one cloud. But because it doesn't, it's super important to talk about, and have a conversation with the business and with your technology teams about a consistent model. >> And how do I do my day one work so that I'm not spending 80% of my time troubleshooting or managing my network? Because if I'm doing that, then I'm missing out on ways that I can make improvements or embrace new technologies. So it's really important early on to figure out, how do I make this as low maintenance as possible so that I can focus on the things that the team really should be focusing on? >> Bobby, your advice there, architecture. >> I don't know what else I can add to that. Simplicity of operations is key. >> So the holistic view of day two operations you mentioned, let's can jump in day one as you're getting stuff set up, day two is your life after. This is kind of of what you're getting at, David. So what does that look like? What are you envisioning as you look at that 20-mile stair, out post multi-cloud world? What are some of the things that you want in the day two operations? >> Infrastructure as code is really important to us. So how do we design it so that we can start fit start making network changes and fitting them into a release pipeline and start looking at it like that, rather than somebody logging into a router CLI and troubleshooting things in an ad hoc nature? So, moving more towards a dev-ops model. >> You guys, anything to add on that day two? >> Yeah, I would love to add something. In terms of day two operations you can either sort of ignore the day two operations for a little while, where you get your feet wet, or you can start approaching it from the beginning. The fact is that the cloud-native tools don't have a lot of maturity in that space and when you run into an issue, you're going to end up having a bad day, going through millions and millions of logs just to try to understand what's going on. That's something that the industry just now is beginning to realize it's such a big gap. >> I think that's key because for us, we're moving to more of an event-driven or operations. In the past, monitoring got the job done. It's impossible to monitor something that is not there when the event happens. So the event-driven application and then detection is important. >> Gardner is all about the cloud-native wave coming into networking. That's going to be a serious thing. I want to get your guys' perspective, I know you have each different views of how you come into the journey and how you're executing. And I always say the beauty's in the eye of the beholder and that applies to how the network's laid out. So, Bobby, you guys do a lot of high-performance encryption, both on AWS and Azure. That's a unique thing for you. How are you seeing that impact with multi-cloud? >> That's a new requirement for us too, where we have an increment to encrypt. And then if you ever get the question, should I encrypt, should I not encrypt? The answer is always yes. You should encrypt when you can encrypt. For our perspective, we need to migrate a bunch of data from our data centers. We have some huge data centers, and getting that data to the cloud is a timely expense in some cases. So we have been mandated, we have to encrypt everything, leave in the data center. So we're looking at using the Aviatrix insane mode appliances to be able to encrypt 10, 20 gigabits of data as it moves to the cloud itself. >> David, you're using Terraform, you've got FireNet, you've got a lot of complexity in your network. What do you guys look at the future for your environment? >> So many exciting that we're working on now as FireNet. So for our security team that obviously have a lot of knowledge base around Palo Alto, and with our commitments to our clients, it's not very easy to shift your security model to a specific cloud vendor. So there's a lot of SOC 2 compliance and things like that were being able to take some of what you've worked on for years on-prem and put it in the cloud and have the same type of assurance that things are going to work and be secure in the same way that they are on-prem, helps make that journey into the cloud a lot easier. >> And Louis, you guys got scripting, you got a lot of things going on. What's your unique angle on this? >> Absolutely. So for disclosure, I'm not an Aviatrix customer yet. (laughs) >> It's okay, we want to hear the truth, so that's good. Tell us, what are you thinking about? What's on your mind? >> When you talk about implementing a tool like this, it's really just really important to talk about automation focus on value. When you talk about things like encryption and things like so you're encrypting tunnels and encrypting the path, and those things should be second nature really. When you look at building those back-ends and managing them with your team, it becomes really painful. So tools like Aviatrix that add a lot automation it's out of sight, out of mind. You can focus on the value, and you don't have to focus on this. >> So I got to ask you guys. I see Aviatrix was here, they're supplier to this sector, but you guys are customers. Everyone's pitching your stuff, people knock on you, "Buy my stuff." How do you guys have that conversation with the suppliers, like the cloud vendors and other folks? What's it like? We're API all the way? You've got to support this? What are some of your requirements? How do you talk to and evaluate people that walk in and want to knock on your door and pitch you something? What's the conversation like? >> It's definitely API driven. We definitely look at the API structure that the vendors provide before we select anything. That is always first of mine and also, what problem are we really trying to solve? Usually, people try to sell or try to give us something that isn't really valuable, like implementing a Cisco solution on the cloud doesn't really add a lot of value, that's where we go. >> David, what's your conversation like with suppliers? Do you have a certain new way to do things? As it becomes more agile, essentially networking, and getting more dynamic, what are some of the conversations with either in commits or new vendors that you're having? What do you require? >> Ease of use is definitely high up there. We've had some vendors come in and say, "Hey, when you go to set this up, "we're going to want to send somebody on-site." And they're going to sit with you for a day to configure it. And that's a red flag. Well, wait a minute, do we really, if one of my really talented engineers can't figure it out on his own, what's going on there and why is that? Having some ease of use and the team being comfortable with it and understanding it is really important. >> Bobby, how about you? Old days was, do a bake-off and the winner takes all. Is it like that anymore? What's evolving? Bake-off last year for but still win. But that's different now because now when you get the product, you can install the product in AWS and Azure, have it up running in a matter of minutes. So the key is that can you be operational within hours or days instead of weeks? But do we also have the flexibility to customize it, to meet your needs? Because you don't want to be put into a box with the other customers when you have needs that are past their needs. >> I can almost see the challenge that you guys are living, where you've got the cloud immediate value, depending how you can roll up any solutions, but then you might have other needs. So you've got to be careful not to buy into stuff that's not shipping. So you're trying to be proactive and at the same time, deal with what you got. How do you guys see that evolving? Because multi-cloud to me is definitely relevant, but it's not yet clear how to implement across. How do you guys look at this baked versus future solutions coming? How do you balance that? >> Again, so right now, we're taking the ad hoc approach and experimenting what the different concepts of cloud are and really leveraging the native constructs of each cloud. But there's a breaking point for sure. You don't get to scale this like someone said, and you have to focus on being able to deliver, developers their sandbox or their play area for the things that they're trying to build quickly. And the only way to do that is with some consistent orchestration layer that allows you to-- >> So you expect a lot more stuff to becoming pretty quickly in that area. >> I do expect things to start maturing quite quickly this year. >> And you guys see similar trend, new stuff coming fast? >> Yeah. Probably the biggest challenge we've got now is being able to segment within the network, being able to provide segmentation between production, non-production workloads, even businesses, because we support many businesses worldwide and isolation between those is a key criteria there. So the ability to identify and quickly isolate those workloads is key. So the CIOs that are watching are saying, "Hey, take that hill, do multi-cloud." And then you have the bottoms up organization, "Pause, you're like off a little bit, it's not how it works." What is the reality in terms of implementing as fast as possible? Because the business benefits are clear, but it's not always clear on the technology how to move that fast. What are some of the barriers, what are the blockers, what are the enablers? >> I think the reality is that you may not think you're multi-cloud, but your business is. So I think the biggest barrier there is understanding what the requirements are and how best to meet those requirements in a secure manner. Because you need to make sure that things are working from a latency perspective that things work the way they did and get out of the mind shift that it was a tier-three application and the data center, it doesn't have to be a tier-three application in the cloud. So, lift and shift is not the way to go. >> Scale is a big part of what I see is the competitive advantage by these clouds and used to be proprietary network stacks in the old days, and then open systems came, that was a good thing. But as cloud has become bigger, there's an inherent lock-in there with the scale. How do you guys keep the choice open? How are you guys thinking about interoperability? What are some of the conversations that you guys are having around those key concepts? >> When we look at from a networking perspective, it's really key for you to just enable all the class to be able to communicate between them. Developers will find a way to use the cloud that best suits their business needs. And like you said, it's whether you're in denial or not, of the multi-cloud fact that your company is in already that's it becomes really important for you to move quickly. >> Yeah. And a lot of it also hinges on how well is the provider embracing what that specific cloud is doing? So, are they swimming with Amazon or Azure and just helping facilitate things, and they're doing the heavy lifting API work for you? Or are they swimming upstream and they're trying to hack it all together in messy way? And so that helps you stay out of the lock-in because there, if they're using Amazon native tools to help you get where you need to be, it's not like Amazon is going to release something in the future that completely makes you have designed yourself into a corner. So the closer, more than cloud-native they are, the more, the easier it is to deploy. >> Which also need to be aligned in such a way that you can take advantage of those cloud-native technologies. Will it make sense? TGW is a gamechanger in terms of cost and performance. So to completely ignore that, would be wrong. But if you needed to have encryption, TGW is not encrypted, so you need to have some type of Gateway to do the VPN encryption. So, the Aviatrix tool will give you the beauty of both worlds. You can use TGW or the Gateway. Real quick on the last minute we have, I want to just get a quick feedback from you guys. I hear a lot of people say to me, "Hey, pick the best cloud for the workload you got, then figure out multicloud behind the scenes." Do you guys agree with that? Do I go more to one cloud across the whole company or this workload works great on AWS, that workload works great on this. From a cloud standpoint, do you agree with that premise, and then when is multi-cloud stitching altogether? >> From an application perspective, it can be per workload, but it can also be an economical decision, certain enterprise contracts will pull you in one direction to add value, but the network problem is still the same. >> It doesn't go away. >> You don't want to be trying to fit a square into a round hall. If it works better on that cloud provider, then it's our job to make sure that service is there and people can use it. >> I agree, you just need to stay ahead of the game, make sure that the network infrastructure is there, security is available and is multi-cloud capable. >> At the end of the day, you guys are just validating that it's the networking game now. Cloud storage, compute check, networking is where the action is. Awesome. Thanks for your insights guys, appreciate you coming on the panel. Appreciate it, thanks. (upbeat music) >> John: Our next customer panel, got great another set of cloud network architects, Justin Smith with Zuora, Justin Brodley with EllieMae and Amit Utreja with Coupa. Welcome to stage. (audience applauds) (upbeat music) >> All right, thank you. >> How are ya? >> Thank you. Thank You. >> Hey Amit. How are ya? >> Did he say it right? >> Yeah. >> Okay he's got all the cliff notes from the last session, welcome back. Rinse and repeat. We're going to go into the hood a little bit. And I think they nailed what we've been reporting, we've been having this conversation around, networking is where the action is because that's at the end of the day you got to move packet from A to B and you got workloads exchanging data. So it's really killer. So let's get started. Amit, what are you seeing as the journey of multicloud as you go under the hood and say, "Okay, I got to implement this. "I have to engineer the network, "make it enabling, make it programmable, "make it interoperable across clouds." That almost sounds impossible to me. What's your take? >> Yeah, it seems impossible but if you are running an organization which is running infrastructure as a code it is easily doable. Like you can use tools out there that's available today, you can use third party products that can do a better job. But put your architecture first, don't wait. Architecture may not be perfect, put the best architecture that's available today and be agile, to iterate and make improvements over the time. >> We get to Justin's over here, so I have to be careful when I point a question to Justin, they both have the answer. Okay, journeys, what's the journey been like? Is there phases, We heard that from Gardner, people come into multicloud and cloud native networking from different perspectives? What's your take on the journey, Justin? >> Yeah, from our perspective, we started out very much focused on one cloud and as we've started doing acquisitions, we started doing new products to the market, the need for multicloud becomes very apparent, very quickly for us. And so having an architecture that we can plug and play into and be able to add and change things as it changes is super important for what we're doing in the space. >> Justin, your journey. >> Yes. For us, we were very ad hoc oriented and the idea is that we were reinventing all the time, trying to move into these new things and coming up with great new ideas. And so rather than it being some iterative approach with our deployments that became a number of different deployments. And so we shifted that toward and the network has been a real enabler of this. There's one network and it touches whatever cloud we want it to touch, and it touches the data centers that we need it to touch, and it touches the customers that we needed to touch. Our job is to make sure that the services that are available in one of those locations are available in all of the locations. So the idea is not that we need to come up with this new solution every time, it's that we're just iterating on what we've already decided to do. >> Before we get the architecture section, I want to ask you guys a question? I'm a big fan of let the app developers have infrastructure as code, so check. But having the right cloud run that workload, I'm a big fan of that, if it works great. But we just heard from the other panel, you can't change the network. So I want to get your thoughts, what is cloud native networking? And is that the engine really, that's the enabler for this multicloud trend? What's you guys take? We'll start with Amit, what do you think about that? >> Yeah, so you're going to have workloads running in different clouds and the workloads would have affinity to one cloud or other. But how you expose that it's a matter of how you are going to build your networks. How you're going to run security. How you're going to do egress, ingress out of it so -- >> You said networking is the big problem to solve. >> Yes. >> What's the solution? What's the key pain points and problem statement? >> The key pain point for most companies is how do you take your traditionally on premise network and then blow it out to the cloud in a way that makes sense. You have IP conflicts, you have IP space, you have public IPs on premise as well as in the cloud. And how do you kind of make sense of all of that? And I think that's where tools like Aviatrix make a lot of sense in that space. >> From our side, it's really simple. It's a latency, it's bandwidth and availability. These don't change whether we're talking about cloud or data center, or even corporate IT networking. So our job when these all of these things are simplified into like, S3, for instance and our developers want to use those. We have to be able to deliver that and for a particular group or another group that wants to use just just GCP resources. We have to support these requirements and these wants, as opposed to saying, "Hey, that's not a good idea." No, our job is to enable them not to disable them. >> Do you guys think infrastructure is code? Which I love that, I think that's the future in this. We even saw that with DevOps. But as you start getting the networking, is it getting down to the network portion where its network as code? Because storage and compute working really well, we're seeing all Kubernetes on service mesh trend. Network has code, reality is it there? Is it still got work to do? >> It's absolutely there, you mentioned net DevOps and it's very real. In Coupa we build our networks through terraform and not only just terraform, build an API so that we can consistently build VNets and VPC all across in the same way. >> So you guys are doing it? >> Yup. And even security groups. And then on top and Aviatrix comes in, we can peer the networks bridge all the different regions through code. >> Same with you guys. >> Yeah. >> What do you think about this? >> Everything we deploy is done with automation and then we also run things like Lambda on top to make changes in real time, we don't make manual changes on our network. In the data center, funny enough, it's still manual but the cloud has enabled us to move into this automation mindset. And all my guys, that's what they focus on is bringing, now what they're doing in the cloud into the data center, which is kind of opposite of what it should be or what it used to be. >> It's full DevOps then? >> Yes. >> For us, it was similar on-prem is still somewhat very manual, although we're moving more and more to ninja and terraform type concepts. But everything in the production environment is code, confirmation terraform code and now coming into the data center same (mumbles). >> So I just wanted to jump in Justin Smith, one of the comment that you made, because it's something that we always talk about a lot is that the center of gravity of architecture used to be an on-prem and now it's shifted in the cloud. And once you have your strategic architecture, what do you do? You push that everywhere. So what you used to see at the beginning of cloud was pushing the architecture on-prem into cloud. Now, I want to pick up on what you said, do you others agree that the center of gravity is here, I'm now pushing what I do in the cloud back into on-prem? And then so first that and then also in the journey, where are you at from zero to 100 of actually in the journey to cloud? Are you 50% there, are you 10%? Are you evacuating data centers next year? Where are you guys at? >> Yeah, so there's there's two types of gravity that you typically are dealing with, with the migration. First is data, gravity and your data set, and where that data lives. And then the second is the network platform that wraps all that together. In our case, the data gravity solely mostly on-prem but our network is now extending out to the app tier, it's going to be in cloud. Eventually, that data, gravity will also move to cloud as we start getting more sophisticated but in our journey, we're about halfway there. About halfway through the process, we're taking a handle of lift and shift and -- >> Steve: And when did that start? >> We started about three years ago. >> Okay, okay. >> Well for Coupa it's a very different story. It started from a garage and 100% on the cloud. So it's a business plan management platform, software as a service run 100% on the cloud. >> That was was like 10 years ago, right? >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> You guys are riding the wave of the architecture. Justin I want to ask you, Zuora, you guys mentioned DevOps. Obviously, we saw the huge observability wave, which essentially network management for the cloud, in my opinion. It's more dynamic, but this is about visibility. We heard from the last panel you don't know what's being turned on or turned off from a services standpoint, at any given time. How is all this playing out when you start getting into the DevOps down (mumbles)? >> This is the big challenge for all of us is visibility. When you talk transport within a cloud, very interestingly we we have moved from having a backbone that we bought, that we own, that would be data center connectivity. Zuora's a subscription billing company, so we want to support the subscription mindset. So rather than going and buying circuits and having to wait three months to install and then coming up with some way to get things connected and resiliency and redundancy. My backbone is in the cloud. I use the cloud providers interconnections between regions to transport data across and so if you do that with their native solutions, you do lose visibility. There are areas in that that you don't get, which is why controllers and having some type of management plane is a requirement for us to do what we're supposed to do and provide consistency while doing it. >> Great conversation. I loved what you said earlier latency, bandwidth, I think availability were your top three things. Guys SLA, just do ping times between clouds it's like, you don't know what you're getting for round trip time. This becomes a huge kind of risk management, black hole, whatever you want to call it, blind spot. How are you guys looking at the interconnect between clouds? Because I can see that working from ground to cloud on per cloud but when you start dealing with multiclouds workloads, SLAs will be all over the map, won't they just inherently. How do you guys view that? >> Yeah, I think we talked about workload and we know that the workloads are going to be different in different clouds, but they're going to be calling each other. So it's very important to have that visibility, that you can see how data is flowing at what latency and what availability is there and our authority needs to operate on that. >> So use the software dashboard, look at the times and look at the latency -- >> In the old days, Strongswan Openswan you try to figure it out, in the new days you have to figure out. >> Justin, what's your answer to that because you're in the middle of it? >> Yeah, I think the key thing there is that we have to plan for that failure, we have to plan for that latency in our applications. If certain things are tracking in your SLI, certain things are planning for and you loosely coupled these services in a much more microservices approach. So you actually can handle that kind of failure or that type of unknown latency and unfortunately, the cloud has made us much better at handling exceptions in a much better way. >> You guys are all great examples of cloud native from day one. When did you have the tipping point moment or the epiphany of saying a multiclouds real, I can't ignore it, I got to factor that into all my design principles and everything you're doing? Was there a moment or was it from day one? >> There are two reasons, one was the business. So in business, there were some affinity to not be in one cloud or to be in one cloud and that drove from the business side. So as a cloud architect our responsibility was to support that business. Another is the technology, some things are really running better in, like if you're running Dotnet workload or your going to run machine learning or AI so that you would have that preference of one cloud over other. >> Guys, any thoughts on that? >> That was the bill that we got from AWS. That's what drives a lot of these conversations is the financial viability of what you're building on top of. This failure domain idea which is fairly interesting. How do I solve our guarantee against a failure domain? You have methodologies with back end direct connects or interconnect with GCP. All of these ideas are something that you have to take into account but that transport layer should not matter to whoever we're building this for. Our job is to deliver the frames and the packets, what that flows across, how you get there? We want to make that seamless. And so whether it's a public internet API call or it's a back end connectivity through direct connect, it doesn't matter. It just has to meet a contract that you've signed with your application, folks. >> Yeah, that's the availability piece. >> Justin, your thoughts on that, any comment on that? >> So actually multiclouds become something much more recent in the last six to eight months, I'd say. We always kind of had a very much an attitude of like moving to Amazon from our private cloud is hard enough, why complicate it further? But the realities of the business and as we start seeing, improvements in Google and Azure and different technology spaces, the need for multicloud becomes much more important. As well as our acquisition strategies are matured, we're seeing that companies that used to be on premise that we typically acquire are now very much already on a cloud. And if they're on a cloud, I need to plug them into our ecosystem. And so that's really changed our multicloud story in a big way. >> I'd love to get your thoughts on the clouds versus the clouds, because you compare them Amazon's got more features, they're rich with features. Obviously, the bills are high to people using them. But Google's got a great network, Google's networks pretty damn good And then you got Azure. What's the difference between the clouds? Where do they fall? Where do they peak in certain areas better than others? What are the characteristics, which makes one cloud better? Do they have a unique feature that makes Azure better than Google and vice versa? What do you guys think about the different clouds? >> Yeah, to my experience, I think the approach is different in many places. Google has a different approach very DevOps friendly and you can run your workloads with your network can span regions. But our application ready to accept that. Amazon is evolving. I remember 10 years back Amazon's network was a flat network, we would be launching servers in 10.0.0/8, right. And then the VPCs came out. >> We'll have to translate that to English for the live feed. Not good. So the VPCs concept came out, multi account came out, so they are evolving. Azure had a late start but because they have a late start, they saw the pattern and they have some mature setup on the network. >> They've got around the same price too. >> I think they're all trying to say they're equal in their own ways. I think they all have very specific design philosophies that allow them to be successful in different ways and you have to kind of keep that in mind as you architect your own solution. For example, Amazon has a very regional affinity, they don't like to go cross region in their architecture. Whereas Google is very much it's a global network, we're going to think about as a global solution. I think Google also has advantage that it's third to market and so has seen what Azure did wrong, it seeing what AWS did wrong and it's made those improvements and I think that's one of their big advantage. >> They got great scale too. Justin thoughts on the cloud. >> So yeah, Amazon built from the system up and Google built from the network down. So their ideas and approaches are from a global versus original, I agree with you completely that is the big number one thing. But the if you look at it from the outset, interestingly, the inability or the ability for Amazon to limit layer to broadcasting and what that really means from a VPC perspective, changed all the routing protocols you can use. All the things that we had built inside of a data center to provide resiliency and make things seamless to users, all of that disappeared. And so because we had to accept that at the VPC level, now we have to accept that at the WAN level. Google's done a better job of being able to overcome those things and provide those traditional network facilities to us. >> Just a great panel, we could go all day here, it's awesome. So I heard, we will get to the cloud native naive questions. So kind of think about what's naive and what's cloud, I'll ask that next but I got to ask you I had a conversation with a friend he's like, "WAN is the new LAN?" So if you think about what the LAN was at a data center, WAN is the new LAN, cause you keep talking about the cloud impact? So that means ST-WAN, the old ST-WAN kind of changing. There's a new LAN. How do you guys look at that? Because if you think about it, what LANs were for inside a premises was all about networking, high speed. But now when you take the WAN and make it, essentially a LAN, do you agree with that? And how do you view this trend? Is it good or bad or is it ugly? What you guys take on this? >> Yeah, I think it's a thing that you have to work with your application architects. So if you are managing networks and if you're a server engineer, you need to work with them to expose the unreliability that it would bring in. So the application has to handle a lot of the difference in the latencies and the reliability has to be worked through the application there. >> LAN, WAN, same concept is that BS? Can you give some insight? >> I think we've been talking about for a long time the erosion of the edge. And so is this just a continuation of that journey we've been on for last several years. As we get more and more cloud native and we talked about API's, the ability to lock my data in place and not be able to access it really goes away. And so I think this is just continuation. I think it has challenges. We start talking about WAN scale versus LAN scale, the tooling doesn't work the same, the scale of that tooling is much larger. and the need to automation is much, much higher in a WAN than it wasn't a LAN. That's why you're seeing so much infrastructure as code. >> Yeah. So for me, I'll go back again to this, it's bandwidth and its latency that define those two LAN versus WAN. But the other thing that's comes up more and more with cloud deployments is whereas our security boundary and where can I extend this secure aware appliance or set of rules to protect what's inside of it. So for us, we're able to deliver VRFs or route forwarding tables for different segments wherever we're at in the world. And so they're trusted to talk to each other but if they're going to go to someplace that's outside of their network, then they have to cross the security boundary, where we enforce policy very heavily. So for me, there's it's not just LAN, WAN it's how does environment get to environment more importantly. >> That's a great point in security, we haven't talked it yet but that's got to be baked in from the beginning, this architecture. Thoughts on security, how you guys are dealing with it? >> Yeah, start from the base, have app to app security built in. Have TLS, have encryption on the data at transit, data at rest. But as you bring the application to the cloud and they're going to go multicloud, talking to over the internet, in some places, well have app to app security. >> Our principles day, security is day zero every day. And so we always build it into our design, build into our architecture, into our applications. It's encrypt everything, it's TLS everywhere. It's make sure that that data is secure at all times. >> Yeah, one of the cool trends at RSA, just as a side note was the data in use encryption piece, which is homomorphic stuff was interesting. Alright guys, final question. We heard on the earlier panel was also trending at re:Invent, we think the T out of cloud native, it spells cloud naive. They have shirts now, Aviatrix kind of got this trend going. What does that mean to be naive? To your peers out there watching the live stream and also the suppliers that are trying to supply you guys with technology and services, what's naive look like and what's native look like? When is someone naive about implementing all this stuff? >> So for me, because we are in 100% cloud, for us its main thing is ready for the change. And you will find new building blocks coming in and the network design will evolve and change. So don't be naive and think that it's static, evolve with the change. >> I think the biggest naivety that people have is that well, I've been doing it this way for 20 years, I've been successful, it's going to be successful in cloud. The reality is that's not the case. You got to think some of the stuff a little bit differently and you need to think about it early enough, so that you can become cloud native and really enable your business on cloud. >> Yeah for me it's being open minded. Our industry, the network industry as a whole, has been very much I'm smarter than everybody else and we're going to tell everybody how it's going to be done. And we fell into a lull when it came to producing infrastructure and so embracing this idea that we can deploy a new solution or a new environment in minutes as opposed to hours, or weeks or months in some cases, is really important in and so >> - >> It's naive being closed minded, native being open minded. >> Exactly. For me that was a transformative kind of where I was looking to solve problems in a cloud way as opposed to looking to solve problems in this traditional old school way. >> All right, I know we're at a time but I got to asked one more question, so you guys so good. Give me a quick answer. What's the BS language when you, the BS meter goes off when people talk to you about solutions? What's the kind of jargon that you hear, that's the BS meter going off? What are people talking about that in your opinion you here you go, "That's total BS?" What triggers you? >> So that I have two lines out of movies if I say them without actually thinking them. It's like 1.21 gigawatts are you out of your mind from Back to the Future right? Somebody's giving you all these wiz bang things. And then Martin Maul and Michael Keaton in Mr Mom when he goes to 220, 221, whatever it takes. >> Yeah. >> Those two right there, if those go off in my mind where somebody's talking to me, I know they're full of baloney. >> So a lot of speeds and feeds, a lot of speeds and feeds a lot of -- >> Just data. Instead of talking about what you're actually doing and solutioning for. You're talking about, "Well, it does this this this." Okay to 220, 221. (laughter) >> Justin, what's your take? >> Anytime I start seeing the cloud vendors start benchmarking against each other. Your workload is your workload, you need to benchmark yourself. Don't listen to the marketing on that, that's just awful. >> Amit, what triggers you in the BS meter? >> I think if somebody explains to you are not simple, they cannot explain you in simplicity, then it's all bull shit. >> (laughs) That's a good one. Alright guys, thanks for the great insight, great panel. How about a round of applause to practitioners. (audience applauds) (upbeat music) >> John: Okay, welcome back to Altitude 2020 for the digital event for the live feed. Welcome back, I'm John Furrier with theCUBE with Steve Mullaney, CEO Aviatrix. For the next panel from Global System Integrated, the folks who are building and working with folks on their journey to multicloud and cloud-native networking. We've got a great panel, George Buckman with DXC and Derrick Monahan with WWT, welcome to the stage. (Audience applauds) >> Hey >> Thank you >> Groovy spot >> All right (upbeat music) >> Okay, you guys are the ones out there advising, building, and getting down and dirty with multicloud and cloud-native networking, we just heard from the customer panel. You can see the diversity of where people come in to the journey of cloud, it kind of depends upon where you are, but the trends are all clear, cloud-native networking, DevOps, up and down the stack, this has been the main engine. What's your guys' take of this journey to multicloud? What do you guys think? >> Yeah, it's critical, I mean we're seeing all of our enterprise customers enter into this, they've been through the migrations of the easy stuff, ya know? Now they're trying to optimize and get more improvements, so now the tough stuff's coming on, right? They need their data processing near where their data is. So that's driving them to a multicloud environment. >> Yeah, we've heard some of the Edge stuff, I mean, you guys are-- >> Exactly. >> You've seen this movie before, but now it's a whole new ballgame, what's your take? Yeah, so, I'll give you a hint, our practice is not called the cloud practice, it's the multicloud practice, and so if that gives you a hint of how we approach things. It's very consultative. And so when we look at what the trends are, like a year ago. About a year ago we were having conversations with customers, "Let's build a data center in the cloud. Let's put some VPCs, let's throw some firewalls, let's put some DNS and other infrastructure out there and let's hope it works." This isn't a science project. What we're starting to see is customers are starting to have more of a vision, we're helping with that consultative nature, but it's totally based on the business. And you've got to start understanding how lines of business are using the apps and then we evolve into the next journey which is a foundational approach to-- >> What are some of the problems some of your customers are solving when they come to you? What are the top things that are on their mind, obviously the ease of use, agility, all that stuff, what specifically are they digging into? >> Yeah, so complexity, I think when you look at a multicloud approach, in my view is, network requirements are complex. You know, I think they are, but I think the approach can be, "Let's simplify that." So one thing that we try to do, and this is how we talk to customers is, just like you simplify in Aviatrix, simplifies the automation orchestration of cloud networking, we're trying to simplify the design, the plan, and implementation of the infrastructure across multiple workloads, across multiple platforms. And so the way we do it, is we sit down, we look at not just use cases, not just the questions we commonly anticipate, we actually build out, based on the business and function requirements, we build out a strategy and then create a set of documents, and guess what? We actually build it in a lab, and that lab that we platform rebuilt, proves out this reference architectural actually works. >> Absolutely, we implement similar concepts. I mean, they're proven practices, they work, right? >> But George, you mentioned that the hard part's now upon us, are you referring to networking, what specifically were you getting at there when you said, "The easy part's done, now the hard part?" >> So for the enterprises themselves, migrating their more critical apps or more difficult apps into the environments, ya know, we've just scratched the surface, I believe, on what enterprises are doing to move into the cloud, to optimize their environments, to take advantage of the scale and speed to deployment and to be able to better enable their businesses. So they're just now really starting to-- >> So do you guys see what I talked about? I mean, in terms of that Cambrian explosion, I mean, you're both monster system integrators with top fortune enterprise customers, you know, really rely on you for guidance and consulting and so forth, and deploy their networks. Is that something that you've seen? I mean, does that resonate? Did you notice a year and a half ago all of a sudden the importance of cloud for enterprise shoot up? >> Yeah, I mean, we're seeing it now. >> Okay. >> In our internal environment as well, ya know, we're a huge company ourselves, customer zero, our internal IT, so, we're experiencing that internally and every one of our other customers as well. >> So I have another question and I don't know the answer to this, and a lawyer never asks a question that you don't know the answer to, but I'm going to ask it anyway. DXC and WWT, massive system integrators, why Aviatrix? >> Great question, Steve, so I think the way we approach things, I think we have a similar vision, a similar strategy, how you approach things, how we approach things, at World Wide Technology. Number one, we want a simplify the complexity. And so that's your number one priority. Let's take the networking, let's simplify it, and I think part of the other point I'm making is we see this automation piece as not just an after thought anymore. If you look at what customers care about, visibility and automation is probably at the top three, maybe the third on the list, and I think that's where we see the value. I think the partnership that we're building and what I get excited about is not just putting yours and our lab and showing customers how it works, it's co-developing a solution with you. Figuring out, "Hey, how can we make this better?" >> Right >> Visibility is a huge thing, just in security alone, network everything's around visibility. What automation do you see happening, in terms of progression, order of operations, if you will? What's the low hanging fruit? What are people working on now? What are some of the aspirational goals around when you start thinking about multicloud and automation? >> So I wanted to get back to his question. >> Answer that question. >> I wanted to answer your question, you know, what led us there and why Aviatrix. You know, in working some large internal IT projects, and looking at how we were going to integrate those solutions, you know, we like to build everything with recipes. Network is probably playing catch-up in the DevOps world but with a DevOps mindset, looking to speed to deploy, support, all those things, so when you start building your recipe, you take a little of this, a little of that, and you mix it all together, well, when you look around, you say, "Wow, look, there's this big bag of Aviatrix. "Let me plop that in. That solves a big part "of my problems that I had, the speed to integrate, "the speed to deploy, and the operational views "that I need to run this." So that was what led me to-- >> John: So how about reference architectures? >> Yeah, absolutely, so, you know, they came with a full slate of reference architectures already out there and ready to go that fit our needs, so it was very easy for us to integrate those into our recipes. >> What do you guys think about all the multi-vendor inter-operability conversations that have been going on? Choice has been a big part of multicloud in terms of, you know, customers want choice, they'll put a workload in the cloud if it works, but this notion of choice and interoperability has become a big conversation. >> It is, and I think that our approach, and that's the way we talk to customers is, "Let's speed and de-risk that decision making process, "and how do we do that?" Because interoperability is key. You're not just putting, it's not just a single vendor, we're talking, you know, many many vendors, I mean think about the average number of cloud applications a customer uses, a business, an enterprise business today, you know, it's above 30, it's skyrocketing and so what we do, and we look at it from an interoperability approach is, "How do things inter-operate?" We test it out, we validate it, we build a reference architecture that says, "These are the critical design elements, "now let's build one with Aviatrix "and show how this works with Aviatrix." And I think the important part there, though, is the automation piece that we add to it and visibility. So I think the visibility is what I see lacking across industry today. >> In cloud-native that's been a big topic. >> Yep >> Okay, in terms of Aviatrix, as you guys see them coming in, they're one of the ones that are emerging and the new brands emerging with multicloud, you've still got the old guard encumbered with huge footprints. How are customers dealing with that kind of component in dealing with both of them? >> Yeah, I mean, we have customers that are ingrained with a particular vendor and you know, we have partnerships with many vendors. So our objective is to provide the solution that meets that client. >> John: And they all want multi-vendor, they all want interoperability. >> Correct. >> All right, so I got to ask you guys a question while we were defining Day-2 operations. What does that mean? You guys are looking at the big business and technical components of architecture, what does Day-2 operations mean, what's the definition of that? >> Yeah, so I think from our perspective, with my experience, we, you know, Day-2 operations, whether it's not just the orchestration piece in setting up and let it automate and have some, you know, change control, you're looking at this from a Day-2 perspective, "How do I support this ongoing "and make it easy to make changes as we evolve?" The cloud is very dynamic. The nature of how fast it's expanding, the number features is astonishing. Trying to keep up to date with the number of just networking capabilities and services that are added. So I think Day-2 operations starts with a fundamental understanding of building out supporting a customer's environments, and making the automation piece easy from a distance, I think. >> Yeah and, you know, taking that to the next level of being able to enable customers to have catalog items that they can pick and choose, "Hey I need this network connectivity "from this cloud location back to this on-prem." And being able to have that automated and provisioned just simply by ordering it. >> For the folks watching out there, guys, take a minute to explain as you guys are in the trenches doing a lot of good work. What are some of the engagements that you guys get into? How does that progress? What happens there, they call you up and say, "Hey I need some multicloud," or you're already in there? I mean, take us through how someone can engage to use a global SI, they come in and make this thing happen, what's the typical engagement look like? >> Derrick: Yeah, so from our perspective, we typically have a series of workshops in the methodology that we kind of go along the journey. Number one, we have a foundational approach. And I don't mean foundation meaning the network foundation, that's a very critical element, we got to factor in security and we got to factor in automation. So when you think about foundation, we do a workshop that starts with education. A lot of times we'll go in and we'll just educate the customer, what is VPC sharing? You know, what is a private link in Azure? How does that impact your business? We have customers that want to share services out in an ecosystem with other customers and partners. Well there's many ways to accomplish that. Our goal is to understand those requirements and then build that strategy with them. >> Thoughts George, on-- >> Yeah, I mean, I'm one of the guys that's down in the weeds making things happen, so I'm not the guy on the front line interfacing with the customers every day. But we have a similar approach. We have a consulting practice that will go out and apply their practices to see what those-- >> And when do you parachute in? >> Yeah, when I parachute in is, I'm on the back end working with our offering development leads for networking, so we understand and are seeing what customers are asking for and we're on the back end developing the solutions that integrate with our own offerings as well as enable other customers to just deploy quickly to meet their connectivity needs. So the patterns are similar. >> Right, final question for you guys, I want to ask you to paint a picture of what success looks like. You don't have to name customers, you don't have to get in and reveal who they are, but what does success look like in multicloud as you paint a picture for the folks here and watching on the live stream, if someone says, "Hey I want to be multicloud, I got to to have my operations Agile, I want full DevOps, I want programmability and security built in from Day-zero." What does success look like? >> Yeah, I think success looks like this, so when you're building out a network, the network is a harder thing to change than some other aspects of cloud. So what we think is, even if you're thinking about that second cloud, which we have most of our customers are on two public clouds today, they might be dabbling in it. As you build that network foundation, that architecture, that takes in to consideration where you're going, and so once we start building that reference architecture out that shows, this is how to approach it from a multicloud perspective, not a single cloud, and let's not forget our branches, let's not forget our data centers, let's not forget how all this connects together because that's how we define multicloud, it's not just in the cloud, it's on-prem and it's off-prem. And so collectively, I think the key is also is that we provide them an HLD. You got to start with a high level design that can be tweaked as you go through the journey but you got to give it a solid structural foundation, and that networking which we think, most customers think as not the network engineers, but as an after thought. We want to make that the most critical element before you start the journey. >> George, from your seat, how does success look for you? >> So, you know it starts out on these journeys, often start out people not even thinking about what is going to happen, what their network needs are when they start their migration journey to the cloud. So I want, success to me looks like them being able to end up not worrying about what's happening in the network when they move to the cloud. >> Steve: Good point. >> Guys, great insight, thanks for coming on and sharing. How about a round of applause for the global system integrators? (Audience applauds) (Upbeat music) >> The next panel is the AVH certified engineers, also known as ACEs. This is the folks that are certified, they're engineering, they're building these new solutions. Please welcome Toby Foss from Informatica, Stacey Lanier from Teradata, and Jennifer Reed with Viqtor Davis to the stage. (upbeat music) (audience cheering) (panelists exchanging pleasantries) >> You got to show up. Where's your jacket Toby? (laughing) You get it done. I was just going to rib you guys and say, where's your jackets, and Jen's got the jacket on. Okay, good. >> Love the Aviatrix, ACEs Pilot gear there above the Clouds. Going to new heights. >> That's right. >> So guys Aviatrix aces, I love the name, think it's great, certified. This is all about getting things engineered. So there's a level of certification, I want to get into that. But first take us through the day in the life of an ACE, and just to point out, Stacy is a squad leader. So he's, he's like a-- >> Squadron Leader. >> Squadron Leader. >> Yeah. >> Squadron Leader, so he's got a bunch of ACEs underneath him, but share your perspective a day in the Life. Jennifer, we'll start with you. >> Sure, so I have actually a whole team that works for me both in the North America, both in the US and in Mexico. So I'm eagerly working to get them certified as well, so I can become a squad leader myself. But it's important because one of the critical gaps that we've found is people having the networking background because you graduate from college, and you have a lot of computer science background, you can program you've got Python, but networking in packets they just don't get. So, just taking them through all the processes that it's really necessary to understand when you're troubleshooting is really critical. Because you're going to get an issue where you need to figure out where exactly is that happening on the network, Is my issue just in the VPCs? Is it on the instance side is a security group, or is it going on prem? This is something actually embedded within Amazon itself? I mean, I troubleshot an issue for about six months going back and forth with Amazon, and it was the VGW VPN. Because they were auto scaling on two sides, and we ended up having to pull out the Cisco's, and put in Aviatrix so I could just say, " okay, it's fixed," and actually helped the application teams get to that and get it solved. But I'm taking a lot of junior people and getting them through that certification process, so they can understand and see the network, the way I see the network. I mean, look, I've been doing this for 25 years when I got out. When I went in the Marine Corps, that's what I did, and coming out, the network is still the network. But people don't get the same training they got in the 90s. >> Was just so easy, just write some software, and they were, takes care of itself. I know, it's pixie dust.  >> I'll come back to that, I want to come back to that, the problem solved with Amazon, but Toby. >> I think the only thing I have to add to that is that it's always the network's fault. As long as I've been in networking, it's always been the network's fault. I'm even to this day, it's still the network's fault, and part of being a network guy is that you need to prove when it is and when it's not your fault. That means you need to know a little bit about 100 different things, to make that work. >> Now you got a full stack DevOps, you got to know a lot more times another hundred. >> Toby: And the times are changing, yeah. >> This year the Squadron Leader and get that right. What is the Squadron Leader firstly? Describe what it is. >> I think is probably just leading on the network components of it. But I think, from my perspective, when to think about what you asked them was, it's about no issues and no escalations. So of my day is like that, I'm happy to be a squadron leader. >> That is a good outcome, that's a good day. >> Yeah, sure, it is. >> Is there good days? You said you had a good day with Amazon? Jennifer, you mentioned the Amazon, and this brings up a good point, when you have these new waves come in, you have a lot of new things, new use cases. A lot of the finger pointing it's that guy's problem , that girl's problems, so how do you solve that, and how do you get the Young Guns up to speed? Is there training, is it this where the certification comes in? >> This is where the certifications really going to come in. I know when we got together at Reinvent, one of the questions that we had with Steve and the team was, what should our certification look like? Should we just be teaching about what AVH troubleshooting brings to bear, but what should that be like? I think Toby and I were like, No, no, no, no. That's going a little too high, we need to get really low because the better someone can get at actually understanding what's actually happening in the network, and where to actually troubleshoot the problem, how to step back each of those processes. Because without that, it's just a big black box, and they don't know. Because everything is abstracted, in Amazon and in Azure and in Google, is abstracted, and they have these virtual gateways, they have VPNs, that you just don't have the logs on, is you just don't know. So then what tools can you put in front of them of where they can look? Because there are full logs. Well, as long as they turned on the flow logs when they built it, and there's like, each one of those little things that well, if they'd had decided to do that, when they built it, it's there. But if you can come in later to really supplement that with training to actual troubleshoot, and do a packet capture here, as it's going through, then teaching them how to read that even. >> Yeah, Toby, we were talking before we came on up on stage about your career, you've been networking all your time, and then, you're now mentoring a lot of younger people. How is that going? Because the people who come in fresh they don't have all the old war stories, like they don't talk about it, There's never for, I walk in bare feet in the snow when I was your age, I mean, it's so easy now, right, they say. What's your take on how you train the young People. >> So I've noticed two things. One is that they are up to speed a lot faster in generalities of networking. They can tell you what a network is in high school level now, where I didn't learn that til midway through my career, and they're learning it faster, but they don't necessarily understand why it's that way here. Everybody thinks that it's always slash 24 for a subnet, and they don't understand why you can break it down smaller, why it's really necessary. So the ramp up speed is much faster for these guys that are coming in. But they don't understand why and they need some of that background knowledge to see where it's coming from, and why is it important, and that's old guys, that's where we thrive. >> Jennifer, you mentioned you got in from the Marines, it helps, but when you got into networking, what was it like then and compare it now? Because most like we heard earlier static versus dynamic Don't be static is like that. You just set the network, you got a perimeter. >> Yeah, no, there was no such thing. So back in the day, I mean, we had Banyan vines for email, and we had token ring, and I had to set up token ring networks and figure out why that didn't work. Because how many of things were actually sharing it. But then actually just cutting fiber and running fiber cables and dropping them over shelters to plug them in and all crap, they swung it too hard and shattered it and now I got to figure eight Polish this thing and actually should like to see if it works. I mean, that was the network , current cat five cables to run an Ethernet, and then from that I just said, network switches, dumb switches, like those were the most common ones you had. Then actually configuring routers and logging into a Cisco router and actually knowing how to configure that. It was funny because I had gone all the way up, I was the software product manager for a while. So I've gone all the way up the stack, and then two and a half, three years ago, I came across to work with Entity group that became Viqtor Davis. But we went to help one of our customers Avis, and it was like, okay, so we need to fix the network. Okay, I haven't done this in 20 years, but all right, let's get to it. Because it really fundamentally does not change. It's still the network. I mean, I've had people tell me, Well, when we go to containers, we will not have to worry about the network. And I'm like, yeah, you don't I do. >> And that's within programmability is a really interesting, so I think this brings up the certification. What are some of the new things that people should be aware of that come in with the Aviatrix A certification? What are some of the highlights? Can you guys share some of the highlights around the certifications? >> I think some of the importance is that it doesn't need to be vendor specific for network generality or basic networking knowledge, and instead of learning how Cisco does something, or how Palo Alto does something, We need to understand how and why it works as a basic model, and then understand how each vendor has gone about that problem and solved it in a general. That's true in multicloud as well. You can't learn how Cloud networking works without understanding how AWS and Azure and GCP are all slightly the same but slightly different, and some things work and some things don't. I think that's probably the number one take. >> I think having a certification across Clouds is really valuable because we heard the global s eyes as you have a business issues. What does it mean to do that? Is it code, is it networking? Is it configurations of the Aviatrix? what is, he says,the certification but, what is it about the multiCloud that makes it multi networking and multi vendor? >> The easy answer is yes, >> Yes is all of us. >> All of us. So you got to be in general what's good your hands and all You have to be. Right, it takes experience. Because every Cloud vendor has their own certification. Whether that's SOPs and advanced networking and event security, or whatever it might be, yeah, they can take the test, but they have no idea how to figure out what's wrong with that system. The same thing with any certification, but it's really getting your hands in there, and actually having to troubleshoot the problems, actually work the problem, and calm down. It's going to be okay. I mean, because I don't know how many calls I've been on or even had aviators join me on. It's like, okay, so everyone calm down, let's figure out what's happening. It's like, we've looked at that screen three times, looking at it again is not going to solve that problem, right. But at the same time, remaining calm but knowing that it really is, I'm getting a packet from here to go over here, it's not working, so what could be the problem? Actually stepping them through those scenarios, but that's like, you only get that by having to do it, and seeing it, and going through it, and then you get it. >> I have a question, so, I just see it. We started this program maybe six months ago, we're seeing a huge amount of interest. I mean, we're oversubscribed on all the training sessions. We've got people flying from around the country, even with Coronavirus, flying to go to Seattle to go to these events where we're subscribed, is that-- >> A good emerging leader would put there. >> Yeah. So, is that something that you see in your organizations? Are you recommending that to people? Do you see, I mean, I'm just, I guess I'm surprised or not surprised. But I'm really surprised by the demand if you would, of this MultiCloud network certification because there really isn't anything like that. Is that something you guys can comment on? Or do you see the same things in your organization? >> I see from my side, because we operate in a multiCloud environments that really helps and some beneficial for us. >> Yeah, true. I think I would add that networking guys have always needed to use certifications to prove that they know what they know. >> Right. >> It's not good enough to say, Yeah, I know IP addresses or I know how a network works. A couple little check marks or a little letters body writing helps give you validity. So even in our team, we can say, Hey, we're using these certifications to know that you know enough of the basics and enough of the understandings, that you have the tools necessary, right. >> I guess my final question for you guys is, why an ACE certification is relevant, and then second part is share with the live stream folks who aren't yet ACE certified or might want to jump in to be aviatrix certified engineers. Why is it important, so why is it relevant and why should someone want to be a certified aviatrix certified engineer? >> I think my views a little different. I think certification comes from proving that you have the knowledge, not proving that you get a certification to get an army there backwards. So when you've got the training and the understanding and you use that to prove and you can, like, grow your certification list with it, versus studying for a test to get a certification and have no understanding of it. >> Okay, so that who is the right person that look at this and say, I'm qualified, is it a network engineer, is it a DevOps person? What's your view, a little certain. >> I think Cloud is really the answer. It's the, as we talked like the edges getting eroded, so is the network definition getting eroded? We're getting more and more of some network, some DevOps, some security, lots and lots of security, because network is so involved in so many of them. That's just the next progression. >> Do you want to add something there? >> I would say expand that to more automation engineers, because we have those now, so I probably extend it beyond this one. >> Jennifer you want to? >> Well, I think the training classes themselves are helpful, especially the entry level ones for people who may be "Cloud architects" but have never done anything in networking for them to understand why we need those things to really work, whether or not they go through to eventually get a certification is something different. But I really think fundamentally understanding how these things work, it makes them a better architect, makes them better application developer. But even more so as you deploy more of your applications into the Cloud, really getting an understanding, even from people who have traditionally done Onprem networking, they can understand how that's going to work in Cloud. >> Well, I know we've got just under 30 seconds left. I want to get one more question then just one more, for the folks watching that are maybe younger than, that don't have that networking training. From your experiences each of you can answer why should they know about networking, what's the benefit? What's in it for them? Motivate them, share some insights of why they should go a little bit deeper in networking. Stacy, we'll start with you, we'll go then. >> I'll say it's probably fundamental, right? If you want to deliver solutions, networking is the very top. >> I would say if you, fundamental of an operating system running on a machine, how those machines start together is a fundamental changes, something that start from the base and work your way up. >> Jennifer? >> Right, well, I think it's a challenge. Because you've come from top down, now you're going to start looking from bottom up, and you want those different systems to cross-communicate, and say you've built something, and you're overlapping IP space, note that that doesn't happen. But how can I actually make that still operate without having to re IP re platform. Just like those challenges, like those younger developers or assistant engineers can really start to get their hands around and understand those complexities and bring that forward in their career. >> They get to know then how the pipes are working, and they're got to know it--it's the plumbing. >> That's right, >> They got to know how it works, and how to code it. >> That's right. >> Awesome, thank you guys for great insights, ACE Certified Engineers, also known as ACEs, give them a round of applause. (audience clapping) (upbeat music) >> Thank you, okay. All right, that concludes my portion. Thank you, Steve Thanks for having me. >> John, thank you very much, that was fantastic. Everybody round of applause for John Furrier. (audience applauding) Yeah, so great event, great event. I'm not going to take long, we got lunch outside for the people here, just a couple of things. Just to call the action, right? So we saw the ACEs, for those of you out of the stream here, become a certified, right, it's great for your career, it's great for not knowledge, is fantastic. It's not just an aviator's thing, it's going to teach you about Cloud networking, MultiCloud networking, with a little bit of aviatrix, exactly like the Cisco CCIE program was for IP network, that type of the thing, that's number one. Second thing is learning, right? So there's a link up there to join the community. Again like I started this, this is a community, this is the kickoff to this community, and it's a movement. So go to community.avh.com, starting a community of multiCloud. So get get trained, learn. I'd say the next thing is we're doing over 100 seminars across the United States and also starting into Europe soon, we will come out and we'll actually spend a couple hours and talk about architecture, and talk about those beginning things. For those of you on the livestream in here as well, we're coming to a city near you, go to one of those events, it's a great way to network with other people that are in the industry, as well as to start alone and get on that MultiCloud journey. Then I'd say the last thing is, we haven't talked a lot about what Aviatrix does here, and that's intentional. We want you leaving with wanting to know more, and schedule, get with us and schedule a multi hour architecture workshop session. So we sit down with customers, and we talk about where they're at in that journey, and more importantly, where they're going, and define that end state architecture from networking, computer, storage, everything. Everything you've heard today, everybody panel kept talking about architecture, talking about operations. Those are the types of things that we solve, we help you define that canonical architecture, that system architecture, that's yours. So many of our customers, they have three by five, plotted lucid charts, architecture drawings, and it's the customer name slash Aviatrix, network architecture, and they put it on their whiteboard. That's the most valuable thing they get from us. So this becomes their 20 year network architecture drawing that they don't do anything without talking to us and look at that architecture. That's what we do in these multi hour workshop sessions with customers, and that's super, super powerful. So if you're interested, definitely call us, and let's schedule that with our team. So anyway, I just want to thank everybody on the livestream. Thank everybody here. Hopefully it was it was very useful. I think it was, and Join the movement, and for those of you here, join us for lunch, and thank you very much. (audience applauding) (upbeat music)

[Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] you you you you [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] ladies and gentlemen please take your seats good morning ladies and gentlemen this is your captain speaking we will soon be taking off on our way to altitude please keep your seatbelts fastened and remain in your seats we will be experiencing turbulence until we are above the clouds ladies and gentlemen we are now cruising at altitude sit back and enjoy the ride [Music] altitude is a community of thought leaders and pioneers cloud architects and enlightened network engineers who have individually and are now collectively leading their own IT teams and the industry on a path to lift cloud networking above the clouds empowering Enterprise IT to architect design and control their own cloud network regardless of the turbulent clouds beneath them it's time to gain altitude ladies and gentlemen Steve Mulaney president and CEO of aviatrix the leader of multi cloud networking [Music] [Applause] all right good morning everybody here in Santa Clara as well as to the what millions of people watching the livestream worldwide welcome to altitude 2020 alright so we've got a fantastic event today I'm really excited about the speakers that we have today and the experts that we have and really excited to get started so one of the things I wanted to just share was this is not a one-time event it's not a one-time thing that we're gonna do sorry for the aviation analogy but you know sherry way aviatrix means female pilot so everything we do as an aviation theme this is a take-off for a movement this isn't an event this is a takeoff of a movement a multi-cloud networking movement and community that we're inviting all of you to become part of and-and-and why we're doing that is we want to enable enterprises to rise above the clouds so to speak and build their network architecture regardless of which public cloud they're using whether it's one or more of these public clouds so the good news for today there's lots of good news but this is one good news is we don't have any PowerPoint presentations no marketing speak we know that marketing people have their own language we're not using any of that in those sales pitches right so instead what are we doing we're going to have expert panels we've got some owners chart of Gartner here we've got 10 different network architects cloud architects real practitioners they're going to share their best practices and there are real-world experiences on their journey to the multi cloud so before we start and everybody know what today is in the US it's Super Tuesday I'm not gonna get political but Super Tuesday there was a bigger Super Tuesday that happened 18 months ago and maybe eight six employees know what I'm talking about 18 months ago on a Tuesday every Enterprise said I'm gonna go to the cloud and so what that was was the Cambrian explosion for cloud for the price so Franco Bree you know what a Cambrian explosion is he had to look it up on Google 500 million years ago what happened there was an explosion of life where it went from very simple single-cell organisms to very complex multi-celled organisms guess what happened 18 months ago on a Tuesday I don't really know why but every enterprise like I said all woke up that day and said now I'm really gonna go to cloud and that Cambrian explosion of cloud went meant that I'm moving from very simple single cloud single use case simple environment to a very complex multi cloud complex use case environment and what we're here today is we're gonna go and dress that and how do you handle those those those complexities and when you look at what's happening with customers right now this is a business transformation right people like to talk about transitions this is a transformation and it's actually not just the technology transformation it's a business transformation it started from the CEO and the boards of enterprise customers where they said I have an existential threat to the survival of my company if you look at every industry who they're worried about is not the other 30 year old enterprise what they're worried about is the three year old enterprise that's leveraging cloud that's leveraging AI and that's where they fear that they're going to actually get wiped out right and so because of this existential threat this is CEO lead this is board led this is not technology led it is mandated in the organization's we are going to digitally transform our enterprise because of this existential threat and the movement to cloud is going to enable us to go do that and so IT is now put back in charge if you think back just a few years ago in cloud it was led by DevOps it was led by the applications and it was like I said before their Cambrian explosion is very simple now with this Cambrian explosion and enterprises getting very serious and mission-critical they care about visibility they care about control that about compliance conformance everything governance IT is in charge and and and that's why we're here today to discuss that so what we're going to do today is much of things but we're gonna validate this journey with customers did they see the same thing we're going to validate the requirements for multi-cloud because honestly I've never met an enterprise that is not going to be multi-cloud many are one cloud today but they all say I need to architect my network for multiple clouds because that's just what the network is there to support the applications and the applications will run and whatever cloud it runs best in and you have to be prepared for that the second thing is is is architecture again with the IT in charge you architecture matters whether it's your career whether it's how you build your house it doesn't matter horrible architecture your life is horrible forever good architecture your life is pretty good so we're going to talk about architecture and how the most fundamental and critical part of that architecture and that basic infrastructure is the network if you don't get that right nothing works right way more important and compute way more important than storm dense storage network is the foundational element of your infrastructure then we're going to talk about day two operations what does that mean well day 1 is one day of your life who you wire things up they do and beyond I tell everyone in networking and IT it's every day of your life and if you don't get that right your life is bad forever and so things like operations visibility security things like that how do I get my operations team to be able to handle this in an automated way because it's not just about configuring it in the cloud it's actually about how do i operationalize it and that's a huge benefit that we bring as aviatrix and then the last thing we're going to talk and it's the last panel we have I always say you can't forget about the humans right so all this technology all these things that we're doing it's always enabled by the humans at the end of the day if the humans fight it it won't get deployed and we have a massive skills gap in cloud and we also have a massive skill shortage you have everyone in the world trying to hire cloud network architects right there's just not enough of them going around so at aviatrix we as leaders ooh we're gonna help address that issue and try to create more people we created a program and we call the ACE program again an aviation theme it stands for aviatrix certified engineer very similar to what Cisco did with CCI es what Cisco taught you about IP networking a little bit of Cisco we're doing the same thing we're gonna teach network architects about multi-cloud networking and architecture and yeah you'll get a little bit of aviatrix training in there but this is the missing element for people's careers and also within their organization so we're gonna we're gonna go talk about that so great great event great show when to try to keep it moving I'd next want to introduce my my host he's the best in the business you guys have probably seen him multiple million times he's the co CEO and co-founder of joob John Ferrier [Applause] okay awesome great great speech they're awesome I totally agree with everything you said about the explosion happening and I'm excited here at the heart of Silicon Valley to have this event it's a special digital event with the cube and aviatrix where we live streaming to millions of people as you said maybe not a million maybe not really take this program to the world this is a little special for me because multi-cloud is the hottest wave and cloud and cloud native networking is fast becoming the key engine of the innovation so we got an hour and a half of action-packed programming we have a customer panel to customer panels before that Gartner is going to come out and talk about the industry we have a global system integrators they talk about how they're advising and building these networks and cloud native networking and then finally the Aces the aviatrix certified engineer is gonna talk more about their certifications and the expertise needed so let's jump right in and let's ask some own rashard to come on stage from Gartner we'll kick it all up [Applause] [Music] okay so kicking things off certain started gardener the industry experts on cloud really kind of more to your background talk about your background before you got the gardener yeah before because gardener was a chief network architect of a fortune five companies with thousands of sites over the world and I've been doing everything and IT from a C programmer the ninety-two a security architect to a network engineer to finally becoming a network analyst so you rode the wave now you're covering in the marketplace with hybrid cloud and now moving quickly to multi cloud is really was talking about cloud natives been discussed but the networking piece is super important how do you see that evolving well the way we see Enterprise adapt in cloud first thing you do about networking the initial phases they either go in a very ad hoc way is usually led by non non IT like a shadow IT or application people are sometime a DevOps team and it's it just goes as it's completely unplanned decreed VP sees left and right as with different account and they create mesh to manage them and they have direct connect or Express route to any of them so that's what that's a first approach and on the other side again it within our first approach you see what I call the lift and shift way we see like Enterprise IT trying to basically replicate what they have in a data center in the cloud so they spend a lot of time planning doing Direct Connect putting Cisco routers and f5 and Citrix and any checkpoint Palo Alto divides that the atoms that are sent removing that to that cloud they ask you the aha moments gonna come up a lot of our panels is where people realize that it's a multi cloud world I mean they either inherit clouds certainly they're using public cloud and on-premises is now more relevant than ever when's that aha moment that you're seeing where people go well I got to get my act together and get on this well the first but even before multi-cloud so these two approach the first one like the ad hoc way doesn't scale at some point idea has to save them because they don't think about the - they don't think about operations we have a bunch of VPC and multiple clouds the other way that if you do the left and shift week they cannot take any advantages of the cloud they lose elasticity auto-scaling pay by the drink these feature of agility features so they both realize okay neither of these words are good so I have to optimize that so I have to have a mix of what I call the cloud native services within each cloud so they start adapting like other AWS constructor is your construct or Google construct and that's what I call the optimal phase but even that they realize after that they are very different all these approaches different the cloud are different identities is completely difficult to manage across clouds I mean for example AWS as accounts there's subscription and in as ER and GCP their projects it's a real mess so they realize well I can't really like concentrate used the cloud the cloud product and every cloud that doesn't work so I have I'm doing multi cloud I like to abstract all of that still wanna manage the cloud from an epi xx view I don't necessarily want to bring my incumbent data center products but I have to do that in a more API driven cloud they're not they're not scaling piece and you were mentioning that's because there's too many different clouds yes that's the piece there so what are they doing whether they read they building different development teams as its software what's the solution well this the solution is to start architecting the cloud that's the third phase I call that the multi cloud architect phase where they have to think about abstraction that works across cloud fact even across one cloud it might not scale as well if you start having like 10,000 security group in AWS that doesn't scale you have to manage that if you have multiple VPC it doesn't scale you need a third-party identity provider so it barely scales within one cloud if you go multiple cloud it gets worse and worse see way in here what's your thoughts I thought we said this wasn't gonna be a sales pitch for aviatrix you just said exactly what we do so anyway up just a joke what do you see in terms of where people are in that multi cloud like a lot of people you know everyone I talked to started in one cloud right but then they look and they say okay but I'm now gonna move to adjourn I'm gonna move do you see a similar thing well yes they are moving but they're not there's not a lot of application that use a tree cloud at once they move one app in Azure one app in individuals one get app in Google that's what we see so far okay yeah I mean one of the mistakes that people think is they think multi-cloud no one is ever gonna go multi-cloud for arbitrage they're not gonna go and say well today I might go into Azure because I got a better rate of my instance that's never do you agree with that's never gonna happen what I've seen with enterprise is I'm gonna put the work load and the app the app decides where it runs best that may be a sure maybe Google and for different reasons and they're gonna stick there and they're not gonna move let me ask you infrastructure has to be able to support from a networking King be able to do that do you agree with that yes I agree and one thing is also very important is connecting to that cloud is kind of the easiest thing so though while I run network part of the cloud connectivity to the cloud is kind of simple you know I agree IPSec VPN and I reckon Express route that's a simple part what's difficult and even a provisioning part is easy you can use terraform and create v pieces and v nets across which we cloud providers right what's difficult is the day-to-day operations so it's what to find a to operations what is that what does that actually mean it's just the day-to-day operations after you know the natural let's add an app that's not a server let's troubleshoot a problem so what ending so your life if something changes now what do you do so what's the big concerns I want to just get back to this cloud native networking because everyone kind of knows with cloud native apps are that's the hot trend what is cloud native networking how do you how do you guys define that because that seems to be the oddest part of the multi cloud wave that's coming as cloud native networking well there's no you know official gardener definition but I can create one on another spot is do it I just want to leverage the cloud construct and a cloud epi I don't want to have to install like like for example the first version was let's put a virtual router that doesn't understand and then the cloud environment right if I have if I have to install a virtual machine it has to be cloud aware it has to understand the security group if it's a router it has to be programmable to the cloud API and and understand the cloud environment you know one things I hear a lot from either see Saussure CIOs or CXOs in general is this idea of I'm definitely on going API so it's been an API economy so API is key on that point but then they say okay I need to essentially have the right relationship with my suppliers aka clouds you call it above the clouds so the question is what do i do from an architecture standpoint do I just hire more developers and have different teams because you mentioned that's a scale point how do you solve this this problem of okay I got AWS I got GCP or Azure or whatever do I just have different teams or just expose API guys where is that optimization where's the focus well I think what you need from an android point of view is a way a control plane across the three clouds and be able to use the api of that cloud to build networks but also to troubleshoot them and do they to operation so you need a view across a three cloud that takes care of routing connectivity that's you know that's the aviatrix plug of view right there so so how do you see so again your Gartner you you you you see the industry you've been a network architect how do you see this this plan out what are the what are the legacy incumbent client-server on-prem networking people gonna do well these versus people like aviatrix well how do you see that playing out well obviously all the incumbent like Arista cisco juniper NSX right they want to basically do the lift and chip are they want to bring and you know VM I want to bring in a section that cloud they call that NSX everywhere and cisco wants bring you star in the cloud they call that each guy anywhere right so everyone what and and then there's cloud vision for my red star and Khan trailers in a cloud so they just want to bring the management plain in the cloud but it's still based most of them it's still based on putting a VM them in controlling them right you you extend your management console to the cloud that's not really cloud native right cloud native you almost have to build it from scratch we like to call that cloud naive well not so close one letter yeah so that was a big culture to reinvent take the tea out of cloud native it's cloud naive that went super viral you guys got t-shirts now I know you love yeah but yeah but that really ultimately is kind of a double-edged sword you got to be you can be naive on the on the architecture side and rolling up but also suppliers are can be naive so how would you define who's naive and who's not well in fact they're evolving as well so for example in Cisco you it's a little bit more native than other ones because they're really scr in the cloud you can't you you really like configure API so the cloud and NSX is going that way and so is Arista but they're incumbent they have their own tools is difficult for them they're moving slowly so it's much easier to start from scratch Avenue like and you know a network happiness started a few years ago there's only really two aviatrix was the first one they've been there for at least three or four years and there's other ones like Al Kyra for example that just started now that doing more connectivity but they want to create an overlay network across the cloud and start doing policies and trying abstracting all the clouds within one platform so I gotta ask you I interviewed an executive at VMware Sanjay Pune and he said to me at RSA last week I was only be two networking vendors left Cisco and VMware what's your respect what's your response to that obviously I mean when you have these waves as new brands that emerge like aviation others though I think there'll be a lot of startups coming out of the woodwork how do you respond to that comment well there's still a data center there's still like a lot of action on campus and there's the one but from the cloud provisioning and clown networking in general I mean they're behind I think you know in fact you don't even need them to start to it you can if you're small enough you can just keep if you're in a table us you can use it with us construct they have to insert themselves I mean they're running behind they're all certainly incumbents I love the term Andy Jesse's that Amazon Web Services uses old guard new guard to talk about the industry what does the new guard have to do the new and new brands that emerge in is it be more DevOps oriented neck net sec Ops is that net ops is the programmability these are some of the key discussions we've been having what's your view on how you see this ability their most important part is they have to make the network's simple for the dev teams and from you cannot have that you cannot make a phone call and get it V line in two weeks anymore so if you move to that cloud you have to make the cloud construct as simple enough so that for example a dev team could say okay I'm going to create this V PC but this V PC automatically being your associate your account you cannot go out on the internet you have to go to the transit VPC so there's a lot of action in terms of the I am part and you have to put the control around them too so to make it as simple as possible you guys both I mean you're the COC aviatrix but also you guys a lot of experience going back to networking going back to I call the OSI days which for us old folks know what that means but you guys know this means I want to ask you the question as you look at the future of networking here a couple of objections oh the cloud guys they got networking we're all set with them how do you respond to the fact that networking is changing and the cloud guys have their own networking what some of the pain points that's going on premises and these enterprises so are they good with the clouds what needs what are the key things that's going on in networking that makes it more than just the cloud networking what's your take on well as I said earlier that once you you could easily provision in the cloud you can easily connect to the cloud is when you start troubleshooting application in the cloud and try to scale so this that's what the problem occurs see what you're taking on it and you'll hear from the from the customers that that we have on stage and I think what happens is all the cloud the clouds by definition designed to the 80/20 rule which means they'll design 80% of the basic functionality and they'll lead to 20% extra functionality that of course every Enterprise needs they'll leave that to ISVs like aviatrix because why because they have to make money they have a service and they can't have huge instances for functionality that not everybody needs so they have to design to the common and that's they all do it right they have to and then the extra the problem is that can be an explosion that I talked about with enterprises that's holy that's what they need that they're the ones who need that extra 20% so that's that's what I see is is there's always going to be that extra functionality that in an automated and simple way that you talked about but yet powerful with up with the visible in control that they expect of on prep that that's that kind of combination that yin and the yang that people like us are providing some I want to ask you were gonna ask some of the cloud architect customer panels it's the same question this pioneers doing some work here and there's also the laggers who come in behind the early adopters what's gonna be the tipping point what are some of those conversations that the cloud architects are having out there or what's the signs that they need to be on this multi cloud or cloud native networking trend what are some of the signals that are going on their environment what are some of the thresholds or things that are going on that there can pay attention to well one once they have application and multiple cloud and they have they get wake up at 2:00 in the morning to troubleshoot them they don't know it's important so I think that's the that's where the robbery will hit the road but as I said it's easier to prove it it's okay it's a TBS it's easy use a transit gateway put a few V PCs and you're done and you create some presents like equinox and do Direct Connect and Express route with Azure that looks simple as the operations that's when they'll realize okay now I need to understand our car networking works I also need a tool that give me visibility and control not but I'm telling you that I need to understand a basic underneath it as well what are some of the day in the life scenarios that you envision happening with multi cloud because you think about what's happening it kind of has that same vibe of interoperability choice multi vendor because you have multi clouds essentially multi vendor these are kind of old paradigms that we've lived through the client-server an internet working wave what are some of those scenarios of success and that might be possible it would be possible with multi cloud and cloud native networking well I think once you have good enough visibility to satisfy your customers you know you not only like to keep the service running an application running but to be able to provision fast enough I think that's what you want to achieve small final question advice for folks watching on the live stream if they're sitting there as a cloud architect or a CXO what's your advice to them right now in this because honestly public cloud check hybrid cloud they're working on that that kids on premise is done now multi class right behind it what's your advice the first thing they should do is really try to understand cloud networking for each of their cloud providers and then understand the limitation and is what there's cloud service provider offers enough or you need to look to a third party but you don't look at a third party to start with especially an incumbent one so it's tempting to say I have a bunch of f5 experts nothing against f5 I'm going to bring my five in a cloud when you can use a needle be that automatically understand is ease and auto scaling and so on and you understand that's much simpler but sometimes you need you have five because you have requirements you have like AI rules and that kind of stuff that you use for years you cannot do it's okay I have requirement and that met I'm going to use legacy stuff and then you have to start taking okay what about visibility control about the three cloud but before you do that you have to understand the limitation of the existing cloud providers so first try to be as native as possible until things don't work after that you can start taking multi-cloud great insight somewhat thank you for coming summit in charge with Gardner thanks for sharing thank you appreciate it thanks [Applause] informatica is known as the leading enterprise cloud data management company we are known for being the top in our industry in at least five different products over the last few years especially we've been transforming into a cloud model which allows us to work better with the trends of our customers in order to see agile and effective in a business you need to make sure that your products and your offerings are just as relevant in all these different clouds than what you're used to and what you're comfortable with one of the most difficult challenges we've always had is that because we're a data company we're talking about data that a customer owns some of that data may be in the cloud some of that data may be on Prem some of that data may be actually in their data center in another region or even another country and having that data connect back to our systems that are located in the cloud has always been a challenge when we first started our engagement myth aviatrix we only had one plan that was Amazon it wasn't till later that a jerk came up and all of a sudden we found hey the solution we already had in place for her aviatrix already working in Amazon and now works in Missouri as well before we knew what GCP came up but it really wasn't a big deal for us because we already had the same solution in Amazon and integer now just working in GCP by having a multi cloud approach we have access to all three of them but more commonly it's not just one it's actually integrations between multiple we have some data and ensure that we want to integrate with Amazon we have some data in GCP that we want to bring over to a data Lake measure one of the nice things about aviatrix is that it gives a very simple interface that my staff can understand and use and manage literally hundreds of VPNs around the world and while talking to and working with our customers who are literally around the world now that we've been using aviatrix for a couple years we're actually finding that even problems that we didn't realize we had were actually solved even before we came across the problem and it just worked cloud companies as a whole are based on reputation we need to be able to protect our reputation and part of that reputation is being able to protect our customers and being able to protect more importantly our customers data aviatrix has been helpful for us in that we only have one system that can manage this whole huge system in a simple easy direct model aviatrix is directly responsible for helping us secure and manage our customers not only across the world but across multiple clouds users don't have to be VPN or networking experts in order to be able to use the system all the members on my team can manage it all the members regardless of their experience can do different levels of it one of the unexpected two advantages of aviatrix is that I don't have to sell it to my management the fact that we're not in the news at three o'clock in the morning or that we don't have to get calls in the middle of the night no news is good news especially in networking things that used to take weeks to build or done in hours I think the most important thing about a matrix is it provides me consistency aviatrix gives me a consistent model that I can use across multiple regions multiple clouds multiple customers okay welcome back to altitude 2020 for the folks on the livestream I'm John for Steve Mulaney with CEO of aviatrix for our first of two customer panels on cloud with cloud network architects we got Bobby Willoughby they gone Luis Castillo of National Instruments David should Nick with fact set guys welcome to the stage for this digital event come on up [Applause] [Music] hey good to see you thank you okay okay customer pal this is my favorite part we get to hear the real scoop against a gardener given this the industry overview certainly multi clouds very relevant and cloud native networking is the hot trend with a live stream out there and the digital event so guys let's get into it the journey is you guys are pioneering this journey of multi cloud and cloud native networking and the soon gonna be a lot more coming so I want to get into the journey what's it been like is it real you got a lot of scar tissue and what are some of the learnings yeah absolutely so multi cloud is whether or not we we accepted as a network engineers is a reality like Steve said about two years ago companies really decided to to just to just bite the bullet and and and move there whether or not whether or not we we accept that fact we need to now create a consistent architecture across across multiple clouds and that that is challenging without orchestration layers as you start managing different different tool sets and different languages across different clouds so that's it's really important that to start thinking about that guys on the other panelists here there's different phases of this journey some come at it from a networking perspective some come in from a problem troubleshooting what's what's your experiences yeah so from a networking perspective it's been incredibly exciting it's kind of a once-in-a-generation --all opportunity to look at how you're building out your network you can start to embrace things like infrastructure as code that maybe your peers on the systems teams have been doing for years but it just never really worked on bram so it's really it's really exciting to look at all the opportunities that we have and then all the interesting challenges that come up that you that you get to tackle an effect said you guys are mostly AWS right yep right now though we're we are looking at multiple clouds we have production workloads running in multiple clouds today but a lot of the initial work has been with Amazon and you've seen it from a networking perspective that's where you guys are coming at it from yep yeah we evolved more from a customer requirement perspective started out primarily as AWS but as the customer needed more resources to measure like HPC you know as your ad things like that even recently Google at Google Analytics our journey has evolved into more of a multi cloud environment Steve weigh in on the architecture because this has been the big conversation I want you to lead this second yeah so I mean I think you guys agree the journey you know it seems like the journey started a couple years ago got real serious the need for multi cloud whether you're there today of course it's gonna be there in the future so that's really important I think the next thing is just architecture I'd love to hear what you had some comments about architecture matters it all starts I mean every Enterprise I talk to maybe talk about architecture and the importance of architecture maybe Bobby it's a particular perspective we sorted a journey five years ago Wow okay and we're just now starting our fourth evolution of our network architect and we'll call it networking security net sec yep versus Justice Network and that fourth generation architectures be based primarily upon Palo Alto Networks an aviatrix I have a trick to in the orchestration piece of it but that journey came because of the need for simplicity ok the need for a multi cloud orchestration without us having to go and do reprogramming efforts across every cloud as it comes along right I guess the other question I also had around architectures also Louis maybe just talk about I know we've talked a little bit about you know scripting right and some of your thoughts on that yeah absolutely so so for us we started we started creating the network constructs with cloud formation and we've we've stuck with that for for the most part what's interesting about that is today on premise we have a lot of a lot of automation around around around how we provision networks but cloud formation has become a little bit like the new manual for us so we're now having issues with having the to automate that component and making it consistent with our on premise architecture making it consistent with Azure architecture and Google cloud so it's really interesting to see to see companies now bring that layer of abstraction that sty and brought to the do the web side now it's going up into into the into the cloud networking architecture so on the fourth generation of you mentioned you're in the fourth gen architecture what do you guys what have you learned is there any lessons scar tissue what to avoid what worked what was the middle it was a path that's probably the biggest lesson there is that when you think you finally figured it out you have it right Amazon will change something as you change something you know transit gateways a game changer so in listening to the business requirements is probably the biggest thing we need to do up front but I think from a simplicity perspective we like I said we don't want to do things four times we want to do things one time we won't be able to write to an API which aviatrix has and have them do the orchestration for us so that we don't have to do it four times how important is architecture in the progression is it you guys get thrown in the deep end to solve these problems or you guys zooming out and looking at it it's a I mean how are you guys looking at the architecture I mean you can't get off the ground if you don't have the network there so all of those now we've gone through similar evolutions we're on our fourth or fifth evolution I think about what we started off with Amazon without a direct connect gateway about a trans a gateway without a lot of the things that are available today kind of the 80/20 that Steve was talking about just because it wasn't there doesn't mean we didn't need it so we needed to figure out a way to do it we couldn't say oh you need to come back to the network team in a year and maybe Amazon will have a solution for it right you need to do it now and it evolved later and maybe optimized for change the way you're doing things in the future but don't sit around and wait you can't I'd love to have you guys each individually answer this question for the live stream because it comes up a lot a lot of cloud architects out in the community what should they be thinking about the folks that are coming into this proactively and/or realizing the business benefits are there what advice would you guys give them an architecture what should be they be thinking about and what are some guiding principles you could share so I would start with looking at an architecture model that that can that can spread and and give consistency they're different to different cloud vendors that you will absolutely have to support cloud vendors tend to want to pull you into using their native toolset and that's good if only it was realistic to talk about only one cloud but because it doesn't it's it's it's super important to talk about and have a conversation with the business and with your technology teams about a consistent model so that's David yeah talking as we prepare about a day to operations so how do I design how do I do my day one work so that I'm not you know spending eighty percent of my time troubleshooting or managing my network because I'm doing that then I'm missing out on ways that I can make improvements or embrace new technologies so it's really important early on to figure out how do I make this as low maintenance as possible so that I can focus on the things that the team really should be focusing on Bobby your advice to the architect I don't know what else I can do that simplicity of operations is key right all right so the holistic view of j2 operation you mentioned let's could jump in day one is you're you're you're getting stuff set up day two is your life after all right this is kind of what you're getting at David so what does that look like what are you envisioning as you look at that 20 miles their outpost multi-cloud world what are some of the things then you want in a day to operations yeah infrastructure is code is really important to us so how do we how do we design it so that we can fit start making network changes and fitting them into like a release pipeline and start looking at it like that rather than somebody logging into a router seoi and troubleshooting things on in an ad hoc nature so moving more towards a DevOps model there's anything on that day - yeah I would love to add something so in terms of date to operations you can you can either sort of ignore the day - operations for a little while where you get well well you get your feet wet or you can start approaching it from the beginning the fact is that the the cloud native tools don't have a lot of maturity in that space and when you run into an issue you're gonna end up having a bad day going through millions and millions of logs just to try to understand what's going on so that's something that that the industry just now is beginning to to realize it's it's such as such a big gap I think that's key because for us we're moving to more of an event-driven operations in the past monitoring got the job done it's impossible to modern monitor something that it's nothing there when the event happens all right so the event-driven application and then detection is important yeah I think Gardner was all about the cloud native wave coming into networking that's gonna be a serious thing I want to get you guys perspectives I know you have different views of how you come into the journey and how you're executing and I always say the beauties in the eye of the beholder and that kind of applies how the network's laid out so Bobby you guys do a lot of high-performance encryption both on AWS and Azure that's kind of a unique thing for you how are you seeing that impact with multi cloud yeah and that's a new requirement for us to where we we have an equipment to encrypt and they they never get the question should i encryption and I'll encrypt the answer is always yes you should encrypt when you can encrypt for our perspective we we need to migrate a bunch of data from our data centers we have some huge data centers and then getting that data to the cloud is the timely experiencing some cases so we have been mandated that we have to encrypt everything leaving the data center so we're looking at using the aviatrix insane mode appliances to be able to encrypt you know 10 20 gigabits of data as it moves to the cloud itself David you're using terraform you got fire Ned you got a lot of complexity in your network what do you guys look at the future for your environment yeah so something exciting that or yeah now is fire net so for our security team they obviously have a lot of a lot of knowledge base around Palo Alto and with our commitments to our clients you know it's it's it's not very easy to shift your security model to a specific cloud vendor right so there's a lot of stuck to compliance or things like that where being able to take some of what you've you know you've worked on for years on Bram and put it in the cloud and have the same type of assurance that things are gonna work and be secure in the same way that they are on prem helps make that journey into the cloud a lot easier and Louis you guys got scripting you got a lot of things going on what's your what's your unique angle on this yeah no absolutely so full disclosure I'm not a not not an aviatrix customer yet it's ok wanna hear the truth that's good Ellis what are you thinking about what's on your mind no really when you when you talk about implementing the tool like this it's really just really important to talk about automation and focus on on value so when you talk about things like encryption and things like so yeah encrypting tunnels and encrypting the paths and those things are it should it should should be second nature really when you when you look at building those backends and managing them with your team it becomes really painful so tools like aviatrix that that add a lot of automation it's out of out of sight out of mind you can focus on the value and you don't have to focus on so I gotta ask you guys I'll see aviatrix is here they're their supplier to the sector but you guys are customers everyone's pitching you stuff these people are not gonna here to buy my stuff how do you guys have that conversation with the suppliers like the cloud vendors and other folks what's the what's it like we're API all the way you got to support this what are some of the what are some of your requirements how do you talk to and evaluate people that walk in and want to knock on your door and pitch you something what's the conversation like it's definitely it's definitely API driven we we definitely look at the at the PAP i structure of the vendors provide before we select anything that that is always first of mine and also what a problem are we really trying to solve usually people try to sell or try to give us something that isn't really valuable like implementing a solution on the on the on the cloud isn't really it doesn't really add a lot of value that's where we go David what's your conversation like with suppliers you have a certain new way to do things as as becomes more agile and essentially the networking and more dynamic what are some of the conversation is with the either incumbents or new new vendors that you're having what do what do you require yeah so ease of use is definitely definitely high up there we've had some vendors come in and say you know hey you know when you go to set this up we're gonna want to send somebody on-site and they're gonna sit with you for a day to configure it and that's kind of a red flag what wait a minute you know do we really if one of my really talented engineers can't figure it out on his own what's going on there and why is that so you know having having some ease-of-use and the team being comfortable with it and understanding it is really important probably how about you I mean the old days was do a bake-off and you know the winner takes all I mean is it like that anymore what's involving take off last year first you win so but that's different now because now you and you when you get the product you can install the product in AWS energy or have it up and running a matter of minutes and so key is is that it can you be operational you know within hours or days instead of weeks right but do we also have the flexibility to customize it to meet your needs could you want to be you want to be put into a box with the other customers we have needs that surpassed or cut their needs yeah I almost see the challenge of you guys are living where you've got the cloud immediate value depending on roll-up any solutions but then you have might have other needs so you've got to be careful not to buy into stuff that's not shipping so you're trying to be proactive at the same time deal with what you got I mean how do you guys see that evolving because multi-cloud to me is definitely relevant but it's not yet clear how to implement across how do you guys look at this baked versus you know future solutions coming how do you balance that so again so right now we we're we're taking the the ad hoc approach and and experimenting with the different concepts of cloud and really leveraging the the native constructs of each cloud but but there's it there's a breaking point for sure you don't you don't get to scale this I like like Seamon said and you have to focus on being able to deliver a developer they're their sandbox or their play area for the for the things that they're trying to build quickly and the only way to do that is with the with with some sort of consistent orchestration layer that allows you to so you've spent a lot more stuff to be coming pretty quickly IDEs area I do expect things to start to start maturing quite quite quickly this year and you guys see similar trend new stuff coming fast yeah you know part of the biggest challenge we've got now is being able to segment within the network being able to provide segmentation between production on production workloads even businesses because we support many businesses worldwide and and isolation between those is a key criteria there so the ability to identify and quickly isolate those workloads is key so the CIOs that are watching or that are saying hey take that he'll do multi cloud and then you know the bottoms up organization take pause you're kind of like off it's not how it works I mean what is the reality in terms of implementing you know in as fast as possible because the business benefits are clear but it's not always clear in the technology how to move that fast yeah what are some of the barriers what are the blockers what are the enablers I think the reality is is that you may not think your multi-cloud but your business is right so I think the biggest barriers there is understanding what the requirements are and how best to meet those requirements Inc and then secure manner because you need to make sure that things are working from a latency perspective that things work the way they did and get out of the mind shift that you know it was a cheery application in the data center it doesn't have to be a Tier three application in the cloud so lift and shift is is not the way to go scale is a big part of what I see is the competitive advantage to lot of these clouds and they used to be proprietary network stacks in the old days and then open systems came that was a good thing but as clouds become bigger there's kind of an inherent lock in there with the scale how do you guys keep the choice open how're you guys thinking about interoperability what are some of the conversations and you guys are having around those key concepts well when we look at when we look at the problem from a networking perspective it it's really key for you to just enable enable all the all the clouds to be to be able to communicate between them developers will will find a way to use the cloud that best suits their their business need and and like like you said it's whether whether you're in denial or not of the multi cloud fact that then your company is in already that's it becomes really important for you to move quickly yeah and a lot of it also hinges on how well is the provider embracing what that specific cloud is doing so are they are they swimming with Amazon or Azure and just helping facilitate things they're doing the you know the heavy lifting API work for you or are they swimming upstream and they're trying to hack it all together in a messy way and so that helps you you know stay out of the lock-in because they're you know if they're doing if they're using Amazon native tools to help you get where you need to be it's not like Amazon's gonna release something in the future that completely you know you have designed yourself into a corner so the closer they're more than cloud native they are the more the easier it is to to deploy but you also need to be aligned in such a way that you can take advantage of those cloud native technologies will they make sense tgw is a game changer in terms of cost and performance right so to completely ignore that would be wrong but you know if you needed to have encryption you know teach Adobe's not encrypted so you need to have some type of a gateway to do the VPN encryption you know so the aviatrix tool gives you the beauty of both worlds you can use tgw or the Gateway Wow real quick in the last minute we have I want to just get a quick feedback from you guys I hear a lot of people say to me hey the I picked the best cloud for the workload you got and then figure out multi cloud behind the scenes so that seems to be do you guys agree with that I mean is it do I go mole to one cloud across the whole company or this workload works great on AWS that work was great on this from a cloud standpoint you agree with that premise and then witness multi-cloud stitch them all together yeah from from an application perspective it it can be per workload but it can also be an economical decision certain enterprise contracts will will pull you in one direction to add value but the the network problem is still the same go away yeah yeah I mean you don't want to be trying to fit a square into a round Hall right so if it works better on that cloud provider then it's our job to make sure that that service is there and people can use it agree you just need to stay ahead of the game make sure that the then they're working for structure is there secure is available and is multi cloud capable yeah I'm at the end the day you guys just validating that it's the networking game now cloud storage compute check networking is where the action is awesome thanks for your insights guys appreciate you coming on the panel appreciate Thanks thank you [Applause] [Music] [Applause] okay welcome back on the live feed I'm John for its Dee Mulaney my co-host with aviatrix I'm with the cube for the special digital event our next customer panel got great another set of cloud network architects Justin Smith was aura Justin broadly with Ellie Mae and Amit Oh tree job with Koopa Pokemon stage [Applause] all right thank you thank you oK you've got all the cliff notes from the last session welcome rinse and repeat yeah yeah we're going to go under the hood a little bit I think I think they nailed the what we've been reporting and we've been having this conversation around networking is where the action is because that's the end of the day you got a move attack from A to B and you get work gloves exchanging data so it's really killer so let's get started Amit what are you seeing as the journey of multi cloud as you go under the hood and say okay I got to implement this I have to engineer the network make it enabling make it programmable make it interoperable across clouds I mean that's like I mean almost sounds impossible to me what's your taking yeah I mean it it seems impossible but if you are running an organization which is running infrastructure as a cordon all right it is easily doable like you can use tools out there that's available today you can use third-party products that can do a better job but but put your architecture first don't wait architecture may not be perfect put the best architecture that's available today and be agile to iterate and make improvements over the time we got to Justin's over here so I have to be careful when I point a question adjusting they both have to answer but okay journeys what's the journey been like I mean is there phases we heard that from Gardner people come into multi cloud and cloud native networking from different perspectives what's your take on the journey Justin yeah I mean from Mars like to we started out very much focused on one cloud and as we started doing Atkins we started doing new products the market the need for multi cloud comes very apparent very quickly for us and so you know having an architecture that we can plug in play into and be able to add and change things as it changes is super important for what we're doing in the space just in your journey yes for us we were very ad hoc oriented and the idea is that we were reinventing all the time trying to move into these new things and coming up with great new ideas and so rather than it being some iterative approach with our deployments that became a number of different deployments and so we shifted that tour and the network has been a real enabler of this is that it there's one network and it touches whatever cloud we want it to touch and it touches the data centers that we need it to touch and it touches the customers that we need it to touch our job is to make sure that the services that are available and one of those locations are available in all of the locations so the idea is not that we need to come up with this new solution every time it's that we're just iterating on what we've already decided to do before we get the architecture section I want to ask you guys a question I'm a big fan of you know let the app developers have infrastructure as code so check but having the right cloud run that workload I'm a big fan of that if it works great but we just heard from the other panel you can't change the network so I want to get your thoughts what is cloud native networking and is that the engine really got the enabler for this multi cloud trend but you guys taken we'll start with a mint what do you think about that yeah so you are gonna have workloads running in different clouds and the workloads would have affinity to one cloud over other but how you expose that it's matter of how you are going to build your networks how we are going to run security how we are going to do egress ingress out of it so it means the big problem how do you split says what's the solution what's the end the key pain points and problem statement I mean the key pain point for most companies is how do you take your traditional on-premise network and then blow that out to the cloud in a way that makes sense you know IP conflicts you have IP space you pub public eye peas and premise as well as in the cloud and how do you kind of make a sense of all of that and I think that's where tools like aviatrix make a lot of sense in that space from our site it's it's really simple it's a latency and bandwidth and availability these don't change whether we're talking about cloud or data center or even corporate IT networking so our job when when these all of these things are simplified into like s3 for instance and our developers want to use those we have to be able to deliver that and for a particular group or another group that wants to use just just GCP resources these aren't we have to support these requirements and these wants as opposed to saying hey that's not a good idea our job is to enable them not to disable them do you think I do you guys think infrastructure has code which I love that I think that's the future it is we saw that with DevOps but I just start getting the networking is it getting down to the network portion where it's network is code because stores and compute working really well is seeing all kubernetes and service master and network is code reality is that there is got work to do it's absolutely there I mean you mentioned net DevOps and it's it's very real I mean in Cooper we build our networks through terraform and on not only just out of fun build an API so that we can consistently build V nets and VPC all across in the same way three guys do it yeah and even security groups and then on top an aviatrix comes in we can peer the networks bridge bridge all the different regions through code same with you guys but yeah think about this everything we deploy is done with automation and then we also run things like lambda on top to make changes in real time we don't make manual changes on our network in the data center funny enough it's still manual but the cloud has enabled us to move into this automation mindset and and all my guys that's what they focus on is is bringing what now what they're doing in the cloud into the data center which is kind of opposite of what it should be that's full or what it used to be it's full DevOps then yes yeah I mean for us was similar on premise still somewhat very manual although we're moving more Norton ninja and terraform concepts but everything in the production environment is colored confirmation terraform code and now coming into the datacenter same I just wanted to jump in on a Justin Smith one of the comment that you made cuz it's something that we always talk about a lot is that the center of gravity of architecture used to be an on-prem and now it's shifted in the cloud and once you have your strategic architecture what you--what do you do you push that everywhere so what you used to see at the beginning of cloud was pushing the architecture on prem into cloud now i want to pick up on what you said to you others agree that the center of architect of gravity is here i'm now pushing what i do in the cloud back into on-prem and what and then so first that and then also in the journey where are you at from 0 to 100 of actually in the journey to cloud do you 50% there are you 10% are you vacuum datacenters next year I mean were you guys at yeah so there's there's two types of gravity that you typically are dealing with with no migration first is data gravity and your data set and where that data lives and then the second is the network platform that interrupts all that together in our case the data gravity sold mostly on Prem but our network is now extend out to the app tier that's gonna be in cloud right eventually that data gravity will also move to cloud as we start getting more sophisticated but you know in our journey we're about halfway there about halfway through the process we're taking a handle of lift and shift and when did that start and we started about three years ago okay okay cool bye it's a very different story it started from a garage and 100% on the clock it's a business spend management platform as a software as a service 100% on the cloud it was like 10 years ago right yes yeah you guys are riding the wave love that architecture Justin I want to ask you is or you guys mentioned DevOps I mean honestly we saw the huge observability wave which is essentially network management for the cloud in my opinion right yeah it's more dynamic but this is about visibility we heard from the last panel you don't know what's being turned on or turned off from a services standpoint at any given time how is all this playing out when you start getting into the DevOps down well this this is the big challenge for all of us as visibility when you talk transport within a cloud you know we very interesting we have moved from having a backbone that we bought that we owned that would be data center connectivity we now I work for as or as a subscription billing company so we want to support the subscription mindset so rather than going and buying circuits and having to wait three months to install and then coming up with some way to get things connected and resiliency and redundancy I my backbone is in the cloud I use the cloud providers interconnections between regions to transport data across and and so if you do that with their native solutions you you do lose visibility there there are areas in that that you don't get which is why controlling you know controllers and having some type of management plane is a requirement for us to do what we're supposed to do and provide consistency while doing it a great conversation I loved when you said earlier latency bandwidth I think availability with your sim pop3 things guys SLA I mean you just do ping times between clouds it's like you don't know what you're getting for round-trip times this becomes a huge kind of risk management black hole whatever you want to call blind spot how are you guys looking at the interconnects between clouds because you know I can see that working from you know ground to cloud I'm per cloud but when you start doing with multi clouds workloads SLA is will be all of the map won't they just inherently but how do you guys view that yeah I think we talked about workload and we know that the workloads are going to be different in different clouds but they are going to be calling each other so it's very important to have that visibility that you can see how data is flowing at what latency and what our ability is hour is there and our authority needs to operate on that so it's solely use the software dashboard look at the times and look at the latency in the old day is strong so on open so on you try to figure it out and then your day is you have to figure out just what's your answer to that because you're in the middle of it yeah I mean I think the key thing there is that we have to plan for that failure we have to plan for that latency in our applications that's starting start tracking your SLI something you start planning for and you loosely couple these services and a much more micro services approach so you actually can handle that kind of failure or that type of unknown latency and unfortunately the cloud has made us much better at handling exceptions a much better way you guys are all great examples of cloud native from day one and you guys had when did you have the tipping point moment or the Epiphany of saying a multi clouds real I can't ignore it I got to factor it into all my design design principles and and everything you're doing what's it was there a moment over that was it from day one now there are two divisions one was the business so in business there was some affinity to not be in one cloud or to be in one cloud and that drove from the business side so as a cloud architect our responsibility was to support that business and other is the technology some things are really running better in like if you are running dot network load or you are going to run machine learning or AI so that you have you would have that reference of one cloud over other so it was the bill that we got from AWS I mean that's that's what drives a lot of these conversations is the financial viability of what you're building on top of it which is so we this failure domain idea which is which is fairly interesting how do I solve our guarantee against a failure domain you have methodologies with you know back-end direct connects or interconnect with GCP all of these ideas are something that you have to take into account but that transport layer should not matter to whoever we're building this for our job is to deliver the frames in the packets what that flows across how you get there we want to make that seamless and so whether it's a public Internet API call or it's a back-end connectivity through Direct Connect it doesn't matter it just has to meet a contract that you signed with your application folks yeah that's the availability piece just on your thoughts on that I think any comment on that so actually multi clouds become something much more recent in the last six to eight months I'd say we always kind of had a very much an attitude of like moving to Amazon from our private cloud is hard enough why complicate it further but the realities of the business and as we start seeing you know improvements in Google and Asia and different technology spaces the need for multi cloud becomes much more important as well as our acquisition strategies I matured we're seeing that companies that used to be on premise that we typically acquire are now very much already on a cloud and if they're on a cloud I need to plug them into our ecosystem and so that's really change our multi cloud story in a big way I'd love to get your thoughts on the clouds versus the clouds because you know you compare them Amazon's got more features they're rich with features I see the bills are hiking people using them but Google's got a great network he googles networks pretty damn good and then you got Asher what's the difference between the clouds who where they evolve something where they peak in certain areas better than others what what are the characteristics which makes one cloud better do they have a unique feature that makes as you're better than Google and vice versa what do you guys think about the different clouds yeah to my experience I think there is the approach is different in many places Google has a different approach very DevOps friendly and you can run your workload like the your network can span regions time I mean but our application ready to accept that MS one is evolving I mean I remember 10 years back Amazon's Network was a flat network we will be launching servers and 10.0.0.0 so so the VP sees concept came out multi-account came out so they are evolving as you are at a late start but because they have a late start they saw the pattern and they they have some mature set up on the I mean I think they're all trying to say they're equal in their own ways I think they all have very specific design philosophies that allow them to be successful in different ways and you have to kind of keep that in mind as you architect your own solution for example Amazon has a very much a very regional affinity they don't like to go cross region in their architecture whereas Google is very much it's a global network we're gonna think about as a global solution I think Google also has a banjo it's third to market and so it has seen what a sure did wrong it's seen what AWS did wrong and it's made those improvements and I think that's one of their big advantage at great scale to Justin thoughts on the cloud so yeah Amazon built from the system up and Google built from the network down so their ideas and approaches are from a global versus or regional I agree with you completely that that is the big number one thing but the if you look at it from the outset interestingly the the inability or the ability for Amazon to limit layer two broadcasting and and what that really means from a VPC perspective changed all the routing protocols you can use all the things that we have built inside of a data center to provide resiliency and and and make things seamless to users all of that disappeared and so because we had to accept that at the VPC level now we have to accept it at the LAN level Google's done a better job of being able to overcome those things and provide those traditional network facilities to us just great panel can go all day here's awesome so I heard we could we'll get to the cloud native naive questions so kind of think about what's not even what's cloud is that next but I got to ask you had a conversation with a friend he's like Wayne is the new land so if you think about what the land was at a datacenter when is the new link you get talking about the cloud impact so that means st when the old st winds kind of changing into the new land how do you guys look at that because if you think about it what lands were for inside a premises was all about networking high speed but now when you take a win and make the essentially a land do you agree with that and how do you view this trend and is it good or bad or is it ugly and what's what you guys take on this yeah i think it's a it's a thing that you have to work with your application architect so if you are managing networks and if you're a sorry engineer you need to work with them to expose the unreliability that would bring in so the application has to hand a lot of this the difference in the latencies and and the reliability has to be worked through the application there land when same concept as that BS I think we've been talking about for a long time the erosion of the edge and so is this is just a continuation of that journey we've been on for the last several years as we get more and more cloud native and we start about API is the ability to lock my data in place and not be able to access it really goes away and so I think this is just continuation that thing I think it has challenges we start talking about weighing scale versus land scale the tooling doesn't work the same the scale of that tooling is much larger and the need to automation is much much higher in a way and than it was in a land that's what you're seeing so much infrastructure as code yeah yeah so for me I'll go back again to this its bandwidth and its latency right that that define those two land versus when but the other thing that comes up more and more with cloud deployments is where is our security boundary and where can I extend this secure aware appliance or set of rules to protect what's inside of it so for us we're able to deliver VRS or route forwarding tables for different segments wherever we're at in the world and so they're they're trusted to talk to each other but if they're gonna go to someplace that's outside of their their network then they have to cross a security boundary and where we enforce policy very heavily so for me there's it's not just land when it's it's how does environment get to environment more importantly that's a great point and security we haven't talked to yet but that's got to be baked in from the beginning that's architecture thoughts on security are you guys are dealing with it yeah start from the base have app to app security built-in have TLS have encryption on the data a transit data at rest but as you bring the application to the cloud and they are going to go multi-cloud talking to over the Internet in some places well have apt web security I mean I mean our principals day security is day zero every day and so we we always build it into our design we want our architecture into our applications its encrypt everything its TLS everywhere it's make sure that that data is secured at all times yeah one of the cool trends at RSA just as a side note was the data in use encryption piece which is a homomorphic stuff was interesting all right guys final question you know we heard on the earlier panel was also trending at reinvent we take the tea out of cloud native it spells cloud naive okay they got shirts now aviatrix kind of got this trend going what does that mean to be naive so if you're to your peers out there watching a live stream and also the suppliers that are trying to supply you guys with technology and services what's naive look like and what's native look like when is someone naive about implementing all this stuff so for me it's because we are in hundred-percent cloud for us it's main thing is ready for the change and you will you will find new building blocks coming in and the network design will evolve and change so don't be naive insane that it's static you wall with the change I think the big naivety that people have is that well I've been doing it this way for 20 years and been successful it's going to be successful in cloud the reality is that's not the case you have to think some of the stuff a little bit differently and you need to think about it early enough so that you can become cloud native and really enable your business on cloud yeah for me it's it's being open minded right the the our industry the network industry as a whole has been very much I am smarter than everybody else and we're gonna tell everybody how it's going to be done and we had we fell into a lull when it came to producing infrastructure and and and so embracing this idea that we can deploy a new solution or a new environment in minutes as opposed to hours or weeks or four months in some cases is really important and and so you know it's not me being closed-minded native being open minded exactly and and it took a for me it was that was a transformative kind of where I was looking to solve problems in a cloud way as opposed to looking to solve problems in this traditional old-school way all right I know we're out of time but I ask one more question so you guys so good it could be a quick answer what's the BS language when you the BS meter goes off when people talk to you about solutions what's the kind of jargon that you hear that's the BS meter going off what are people talking about that in your opinion you here you go that's total B yes but what triggers use it so that I have two lines out of movies that are really I can if I say them without actually thinking them it's like 1.21 jigowatts are you out of your mind from Back to the Future right somebody's giving you all these and then and then Martin Mull and and Michael Keaton and mr. mom when he goes to 22 21 whatever it takes yeah those two right there if those go off in my mind somebody's talking to me I know they're full of baloney so a lot of speech would be a lot of speeds and feeds a lot of data did it instead of talking about what you're actually doing and solutioning for you're talking about well I does this this this and any time I start seeing the cloud vendor start benchmarking against each other it's your workload is your workload you need a benchmark yourself don't don't listen to the marketing on that that's that's all what triggers you and the bsp I think if somebody explains you and not simple they cannot explain you in simplicity then that's good all right guys thanks for the great insight great pen how about a round of applause DX easy solutions integrating company that we service customers from all industry verticals and we're helping them to move to the digital world so as a solutions integrator we interface with many many customers that have many different types of needs and they're on their IT journey to modernize their applications into the cloud so we encounter many different scenarios many different reasons for those migrations all of them seeking to optimize their IT solutions to better enable their business we have our CPS organization it's cloud platform services we support AWS does your Google Alibaba porco will help move those workloads to wherever it's most appropriate no one buys the house for the plumbing equally no one buys the solution for the networking but if the plumbing doesn't work no one likes the house and if this network doesn't work no one likes a solution so network is ubiquitous it is a key component of every solution we do the network connectivity is the lifeblood of any architecture without network connectivity nothing works properly planning and building a scalable robust network that's gonna be able to adapt with the application needs its critical when encountering some network design and talking about speed the deployment aviatrix came up in discussion and we then further pursued an area DHT products that incorporated aviatrix is part of a new offering that we are in the process of developing that really enhances our ability to provide cloud connectivity for the lance cloud connectivity there's a new line of networking services that we're getting into as our clients moving the hybrid cloud networking it is much different than our traditional based services an aviatrix provides a key component in that service before we found aviatrix we were using just native peering connections but there wasn't a way to visualize all those peering connections and with multiple accounts multiple contacts for security with a v8 church we were able to visualize those different peering connections of security groups it helped a lot especially in areas of early deployment scenarios were quickly able to then take those deployment scenarios and turn them into scripts that we can then deploy repeatedly their solutions were designed for work with the cloud native capabilities first and where those cloud native capabilities fall short they then have solution sets that augment those capabilities I was pleasantly surprised number one with the aviatrix team as a whole in their level of engagement with us you know we weren't only buying the product we were buying a team that came on board to help us implement and solution that was really good to work together to learn both what aviatrix had to offer as well as enhancements that we had to bring that aviatrix was able to put into their product and meet our needs even better aviatrix was a joy to find because they really provided us the technology that we needed in order to provide multi cloud connectivity that really added to the functionality that you can't get from the basically providing services we're taking our customers on a journey to simplify and optimize their IT infrastructure baby Atrix certainly has made my job much easier okay welcome back to altitude 2020 for the digital event for the live feed welcome back I'm John fray with the cube with Steve Mulaney CEO aviatrix for the next panel from global system integrators the folks who are building and working with folks on their journey to multi cloud and cloud native networking we've got a great panel George Buckman with dxc and Derek Monahan with wwt welcome to the stage [Applause] [Music] okay you guys are the ones out there advising building and getting down and dirty with multi cloud and cloud native network and we start from the customer panel you can see the diversity of where people come into the journey of cloud it kind of depends upon where you are but the trends are all clear cloud native networking DevOps up and down the stack this has been the main engine what's your guys take of the disk Jerry to multi cloud what do you guys seeing yep yeah it's it's critical I mean we're seeing all of our enterprise customers enter into this they've been through the migrations of the easy stuff you know now they're trying to optimize and get more improvement so now the tough stuffs coming on right and you know they need their data processing near where their data is so that's driving them to a multi cloud environment okay we heard some of the edge stuff I mean you guys are you've seen this movie before but now it's a whole new ballgame what's your take yeah so I'll give you a hint so our practice it's not called the cloud practice it's the multi cloud practice and so if that gives you a hint of how we approach things it's very consultative and so when we look at what the trends are let's look a little year ago about a year ago we were having conversations with customers let's build a data center in the cloud let's put some VP C's let's throw some firewalls with some DNS and other infrastructure out there and let's hope it works this isn't a science project so what we're trying we're starting to see is customers are starting to have more of a vision and we're helping with that consultative nature but it's totally based on the business and you got to start understanding how the lines of business are using the apps and then we evolved into that next journey which is a foundational approach to what are some of the problem statements customers are solving when they come to you what are the top things that are on their my house or the ease of use of Julie all that stuff but what specifically they did digging into yeah some complexity I think when you look at a multi cloud approach in my view is network requirements are complex you know I think they are but I think the approach can be let's simplify that so one thing that we try to do this is how we talk to customers is let's just like you simplify an aviatrix simplifies the automation orchestration of cloud networking we're trying to simplify the design the planning implementation of infrastructure across multiple workloads across multiple platforms and so the way we do it is we sit down we look at not just use cases and not just the questions in common we anticipate we actually build out based on the business and function requirements we build out a strategy and then create a set of documents and guess what we actually build in the lab and that lab that we platform we built proves out this reference architecture actually works absolutely we implement similar concepts I mean we they're proven practices they work great so well George you mentioned that the hard parts now upon us are you referring to networking what is specifically were you getting at Tara says the easy parts done that so for the enterprises themselves migrating their more critical apps or more difficult apps into the environments you know they've just we've just scratched the surface I believe on what enterprises that are doing to move into the cloud to optimize their environments to take advantage of the scale and speed to deployment and to be able to better enable their businesses so they're just now really starting the >> so do you get you guys see what I talked about them in terms of their Cambrian explosion I mean you're both monster system integrators with you know top fortune enterprise customers you know really rely on you for for guidance and consulting and so forth and boy they're networks is that something that you you've seen I mean - does that resonate did you notice a year and a half ago and all of a sudden the importance of cloud for enterprise shoot up yeah I mean we're seeing it okay in our internal environment as you know we're a huge company or as customers are in 30 so we're experiencing that internal okay and every one of our other customers so I I have another question oh but I don't know the answer to this and the lawyer never asks a question that you don't know the answer to but I'm gonna ask it anyway DX c @ w WT massive system integrators why aviatrix yep so great question Steve so I think the way we approach things I think we have a similar vision a similar strategy how you approach things how we approach things that world by technology number one we want to simplify the complexity and so that's your number one priorities let's take the networking but simplify it and I think part of the other point I'm making is we have we see this automation piece as not just an afterthought anymore if you look at what customers care about visibility and automation is probably the at the top three maybe the third on the list and I think that's where we see the value and I think the partnership that we're building and what I what I get excited about is not just putting yours in our lab and showing customers how it works is Co developing a solution with you figuring out hey how can we make this better Bank visibily is a huge thing jump in security alone network everything's around visibility what automation you see happening in terms of progression order of operations if you will it's the low-hanging fruit what are people working on now and what are what are some of the aspirational goals around when you start thinking about multi cloud an automation yep so I wanted to get back to answer that question I want to answer your question you know what led us there and why aviatrix you know in working some large internal IT projects and and looking at how we were going to integrate those solutions you know we like to build everything with recipes where network is probably playing catch-up in the DevOps world but with a DevOps mindset looking to speed to deploy support all those things so when you start building your recipes you take a little of this a little of that and you mix it all together well when you look around you say wow look there's this big bag of athe let me plop that in that solves a big part of my problems that I have to speed to integrate speed to deploy and the operational views that I need to run this so that was 11 years about reference architectures yeah absolutely so you know they came with a full slate of reference architectures already the out there and ready to go that fit our needs so it's very very easy for us to integrate those into our recipes what do you guys think about all the multi vendor interoperability conversations that have been going on choice has been a big part of multi cloud in terms of you know customers want choice didn't you know they'll put a workload in the cloud that works but this notion of choice and interoperability is become a big conversation it is and I think our approach and that's why we talk to customers is let's let's speed and D risk of that decision making process and how do we do that because the interoperability is key you're not just putting it's not just a single vendor we're talking you know many many vendors I mean think about the average number of cloud application as a customer uses a business and enterprise business today you know it's it's above 30 it's it's skyrocketing and so what we do and we look at it from an Billee approach is how do things interoperate we test it out we validate it we build a reference architecture says these are the critical design elements now let's build one with aviatrix and show how this works with aviatrix and I think the the important part there though is the automation piece that we add to it invisibility so I think the visibility is what's what I see lack in cross industry today and the cloud needed that's been a big topic okay in terms of aviatrix as you guys see them coming in there one of the ones that are emerging and the new brands emerging with multi cloud you still got the old guard incumbent with huge footprints how our customers dealing with that that kind of component and dealing with both of them yeah I mean where we have customers that are ingrained with a particular vendor and you know we have partnerships with many vendors so our objective is to provide the solution that meets that client and you they all want multi vendor they all want interoperability correct all right so I got to ask you guys a question what we were defining day to operations what does that mean I mean you guys are looking at the big business and technical components of architecture what does day to Operations mean what's the definition of that yeah so I think from our perspective my experience we you know day to operations whether it's it's not just the you know the orchestration piece and setting up and let it a lot of automate and have some you know change control you're looking at this from a data perspective how do I support this ongoing and make it easy to make changes as we evolve that the the cloud is very dynamic the the nature of how the fast is expanding the number of features is astonishing trying to keep up to date with a number of just networking capabilities and services that are added so I think day to operation starts with a fundable understanding of you know building out supporting a customer's environments and making it the automation piece easy from from you know a distance I think yeah and you know taking that to the next level of being able to enable customers to have catalog items that they can pick and choose hey I need this network connectivity from this cloud location back to this on pram and being able to have that automated and provisioned just simply by ordering it for the folks watching out there guys take a minute to explain as you guys are in the trenches doing a lot of good work what are some of the engagement that you guys get into how does that progress what is the what's what happens there they call you up and say hey I need multi-cloud or you're already in there I mean take us through why how someone can engage to use a global si to come in and make this thing happen what's typical engagement look like yeah so from our perspective we typically have a series of workshops in a methodology that we kind of go along the journey number one we have a foundational approach and I don't mean foundation meaning the network foundation that's a very critical element we got a factor in security we've got to factor in automation so we think about foundation we do a workshop that starts with education a lot of times we'll go in and we'll just educate the customer what does VPC sharing you know what is a private link and asher how does that impact your business you know customers I want to share services out in an ecosystem with other customers and partners well there's many ways to accomplish that so our goal is to you know understand those requirements and then build that strategy with them thoughts Georgia yeah I mean I'm one of the guys that's down in the weeds making things happen so I'm not the guy on the front line interfacing with the customers every day but we have a similar approach you know we have a consulting practice that will go out and and apply their practices to see what those and when do you parachute in yeah and when I've been is I'm on the back end working with our offering development leads for the networking so we understand or seeing what customers are asking for and we're on the back end developing the solutions that integrate with our own offerings as well as enable other customers to just deploy quickly to meet their connectivity needs it so the patterns are similar right final question for you guys I want to ask you to paint a picture of what success looks like and you know the name customers didn't again reveal kind of who they are but what does success look like in multi-cloud as you as you paint a picture for the folks here and watching on the live stream it's someone says hey I want to be multi-cloud I got to have my operations agile I want full DevOps I want programmability security built in from day zero what does success look like yeah I think success looks like this so when you're building out a network the network is a harder thing to change than some other aspects of cloud so what we think is even if you're thinking about that second cloud which we have most of our customers are on to public clouds today they might be dabbling in is you build that network foundation at architecture that takes in consideration where you're going and so once we start building that reference architecture out that shows this is how to sit from a multi-cloud perspective not a single cloud and let's not forget our branches let's not forget our data centers let's not forget how all this connects together because that's how we define multi-cloud it's not just in the cloud it's on Prem and it's off Prem and so collectively I think the key is also is that we provide them an hld you got to start with a high level design that can be tweaked as you go through the journey but you got to give a solid structural foundation and that networking which we think most customers think as not not the network engineers but as an afterthought we want to make that the most critical element before you start the journey Jorge from your seed how do you success look for you so you know it starts out on these journeys often start out people not even thinking about what is gonna happen with what their network needs are when they start their migration journey to the cloud so I want this success to me looks like them being able to end up not worrying about what's happening in the network when they move to the cloud good guys great insight thanks for coming on share and pen I've got a round of applause the global system integrators [Applause] [Music] okay welcome back from the live feed I'm chef for with the q Steve Valenti CEO of aviatrix my co-host our next panel is the aviatrix certified engineer is also known as aces this is the folks that are certified their engineering they're building these new solutions please welcome Toby Foss from informatica Stacy linear from Teradata and Jennifer Reed with Victor Davis to the stage I was just gonna I was just gonna rip you guys see where's your jackets and Jen's got the jacket on okay good love the aviatrix aces pile of gear they're above the clouds story to new heights that's right so guys aviatrix aces love the name I think it's great certified this is all about getting things engineered so there's a level of certification I want to get into that but first take us through the day in the life of an ace and just to point out Stacey's a squad leader so he's like it Squadron Leader Roger and leader yeah Squadron Leader he's got a bunch of aces underneath him but share your perspective day-in-the-life Jennifer we'll start with you sure so I have actually a whole team that works for me both in the in the North America both in the US and in Mexico and so I'm really working to get them certified as well so I can become a squad leader myself but it's important because one of the the critical gaps that we've found is people having the networking background because they're you graduate from college and you have a lot of computer science background you can program you've got Python but networking in packets they just don't get and so just taking them through all the processes that it's really necessary to understand when you're troubleshooting is really critical mm-hm and because you're gonna get an issue where you need to figure out where exactly is that happening on the network you know is my my issue just in the V PC is and on the instant side is a security group or is it going on print and is this something actually embedded within Amazon itself I mean I should troubleshot an issue for about six months going back and forth with Amazon and it was the vgw VPN because they were auto-scaling on two sides and we ended up having to pull out the Cisco's and put in aviatrix so I could just say okay it's fixed and actually actually helped the application teams get to that and get it solved yeah but I'm taking a lot of junior people and getting them through that certification process so they can understand and see the network the way I see the network I mean look I've been doing this for 25 years when I got out when I went in the Marine Corps that's what I did and coming out the network is still the network but people don't get the same training they get they got in the 90s it's just so easy just write some software they work takes care of itself yes he'll be will good I'll come back to that I want to come back to that problem solve with Amazon but Toby I think the only thing I have to add to that is that it's always the network fault as long as I've been in never I've always been the network's fault and I'm even to this day you know it's still the network's fault and part of being a network guy is that you need to prove when it is and when it's not your fault and that means you need to know a little bit about a hundred different things to make that and now you've got a full stack DevOps you got to know a lot more times another 100 and these times are changing yeah they say you're Squadron Leader I get that right what is what is the squadron leader first can you describe what it is I think probably just leading all the network components of it but not they from my perspective when to think about what you ask them was it's about no issues and the escalation soft my day is a good outcome that's a good day it's a good day again every mission the Amazon this brings up a good point you know when you have these new waves come in you have a lot of new things new we use cases a lot of the finger-pointing it's that guys problem that girls problem so what how do you solve that and how do you get the young guns up to speed is there training is that this is where the certification comes in was where the certification is really going to come in I know when we we got together at reinvent one of the the questions that that we had with Steve and the team was what what should our certification look like you know she would just be teaching about what aviatrix troubleshooting brings to bear like what should that be like and I think Toby and I were like no no no that's going a little too high we need to get really low because the the better someone can get at actually understanding what actually happening in the network and and where to actually troubleshoot the problem how to step back each of those processes because without that it's just a big black box and they don't know you know because everything is abstracted in Amazon Internet and Azure and Google is substracted and they have these virtual gateways they have VPNs that you just don't have the logs on it's you just don't know and so then what tools can you put in front of them of where they can look because there are four logs well as long as they turned on the flow logs when they built it you know and there's like each one of those little things that well if they'd had decided to do that when they built it it's there but if you can come in later to really supplement that with training to actual troubleshoot and do a packet capture here as it's going through then teaching them how to read that even yeah Toby we were talking before he came on up on stage about your career you've been networking all your time and then you know you're now mentoring a lot of younger people how is that going because the people who come in fresh they don't have all the old war stories they don't know you talk about yeah that's never fault I walk in Mayr feet in the snow when I was your age I mean it's so easy now right they say what's your take on how you train the young piece so I've noticed two things one is that they are up to speed a lot faster in generalities of networking they can tell you what a network is in high school level now where I didn't learn that too midway through my career and they're learning it faster but they don't necessarily understand why it's that way here you know everybody thinks that it's always slash 24 for a subnet and they don't understand why you can break it down smaller why it's really necessary so the the ramp up speed is much faster for these guys that are coming in but they don't understand why and they need some of that background knowledge to see where it's coming from and why is it important and old guys that's where we thrive Jennifer you mentioned you got in from the Marines health spa when you got into networking how what was it like then and compare it now most like we've heard earlier static versus dynamic don't be static because back then you just said the network you got a perimeter yeah I know there was no such thing yeah no so back in the day I mean I mean we had banyan vines for email and you know we had token ring and I had to set up token ring networks and figure out why that didn't work because how many of things were actually sharing it but then actually just cutting fiber and running fiber cables and dropping them over you know shelters to plug them in and oh crap they swung it too hard and shattered it and how I gotta be great polished this thing and actually shoot like to see if it works I mean that was the network current five cat 5 cables to run an Ethernet you know and then from that just said network switches dumb switches like those were the most common ones you had then actually configuring routers and you know logging into a Cisco router and actually knowing how to configure that and it was funny because I had gone all the way up and was a software product manager for a while so I've gone all the way up the stack and then two and a half three years ago I came across to to work with entity group that became Victor Davis but we went to help one of our customers Avis and it was like okay so we need to fix the network okay I haven't done this in 20 years but all right let's get to it you know because it really fundamentally does not change it's still the network I mean I've had people tell me well you know when we go to containers we will not have to worry about the network and I'm like yeah you don't I do and then with this with and programmability is it really interesting so I think this brings up the certification what are some of the new things that people should be aware of that come in with the aviatrix ace certification what are some of the highlights can you guys share some of the some of the highlights around the certifications I think some of the importance is that it's it doesn't need to be vendor specific for network generality or basic networking knowledge and instead of learning how Cisco does something or how Palo Alto does something we need to understand how and why it works as a basic model and then understand how each vendor has gone about that problem and solved it in a general that's true in multi cloud as well you can't learn how cloud networking works without understanding how AWS integer and GCP are all slightly the same but slightly different and some things work and some things don't I think that's probably the number one take I think having a certification across clouds is really valuable because we heard the global s eyes cover the business issues what does it mean to do that is it code is that networking is the configuration is that aviatrix what is the I mean obviate races the ACE certifications but what is it about the multi cloud that makes it multi networking and multi vendor easy answer is yes so you got to be a general let's go to your hands and all you have to be it takes experience because it's every every cloud vendor has their own certification whether that is ops and [Music] advanced networking and advanced security or whatever it might be yeah they can take the test but they have no idea how to figure out what's wrong with that system and the same thing with any certification but it's really getting your hands in there and actually having to troubleshoot the problems you know actually work the problem you know and calm down it's going to be okay I mean because I don't know how many calls I've been on or even had aviatrix join me on it's like okay so everyone calm down let's figure out what's happening it's like we've looked at that screen three times looking at it again it's not gonna solve that problem right but at the same time you know remaining calm but knowing that it really is I'm getting a packet from here to go over here it's not working so what could be the problem you know and actually stepping them through those scenarios but that's like you only get that by having to do it you know and seeing it and going through it and then I have a question so we you know I just see it we started this program maybe six ago we're seeing a huge amount of interest I mean we're oversubscribed on all the training sessions we've got people flying from around the country even with coronavirus flying to go to Seattle to go to these events were oversubscribed good is that watching leader would put there yeah is that something that you see in your organization's are you recommending that to people do you see I mean I'm just I guess I'm surprised I'm not surprised but I'm really surprised by the demand if you would of this multi-cloud network certification because it really isn't anything like that is that something you guys can comment on or do you see the same things in your organization's I see from my side because we operate in the multi cloud environment so it really helps and it's beneficial for us yeah I think I would add that uh networking guys have always needed to use certifications to prove that they know what they know right it's not good enough to say yeah I know IP addresses or I know how a network works and a couple little check marks or a little letters by your name helps give you validity um so even in our team we can say hey you know we're using these certifications to know that you know enough of the basics and enough of the understandings that you have the tools necessary right so I guess my final question for you guys is why an eighth certification is relevant and then second part is share with the livestream folks who aren't yet a certified or might want to jump in to be AVH or certified engineers why is it important so why is it relevant and why should someone want to be an ace-certified I'm used to write engineer I think my view is a little different I think certification comes from proving that you have the knowledge not proving that you get a certification to get know I mean they're backwards so when you've got the training in the understanding and the you use that to prove and you can like grow your certification list with it versus studying for a test to get a certification and have no understanding of ok so that who is the right person that look at this is saying I'm qualified is it a network engineer is it a DevOps person what's your view you know is it a certain you know I think cloud is really the answer it's the as we talked like the edge is getting eroded so is the network initially eating eroded we're getting more and more of some network some DevOps some security lots and lots of security because network is so involved in so many of them that it's just the next progression I would say I expand that to more automation engineers because we have those nails probably extended as well well I think that the training classes themselves are helpful especially the entry-level ones for people who may be quote-unquote cloud architects but have never done anything and networking for them to understand why we need those things to really work whether or not they go through to eventually get a certification is something different but I really think fundamentally understanding how these things work it makes them a better architect makes some better application developer but even more so as you deploy more of your applications into the cloud really getting an understanding even from our people who have tradition down on Prem networking they can understand how that's going to work in the cloud - well I know we've got just under 30 seconds left but I want to get one more question and just one more for the folks watching that are you maybe younger that don't have that networking training from your experiences each of you can answer why is it should they know about networking what's the benefit what's in it for them motivate them share some insights and why they should go a little bit deeper in networking Stacy we'll start with you we'll go down let's say it's probably fundamental right if you want to deliver solutions networking use the very top I would say if you fundamental of an operating system running on a machine how those machines talk together as a fundamental change is something that starts from the base and work your way up right well I think it's a challenge because you you've come from top-down now you're gonna start looking from bottom-up and you want those different systems to cross communicate and say you built something and you're overlapping IP space not that that doesn't happen but how can I actually make that still operate without having to reappear e-platform it's like those challenges like those younger developers or sis engineers can really start to get their hands around and understand those complexities and bring that forward in their career they got to know the pilot pipes are working and some plumbing that's right works at how to code it that's right awesome thank you guys for great insights ace certain babies you're certified engineers also known as aces give a round of applause thank you okay all right that concludes my portion thank you Steve thanks for have Don thank you very much that was fantastic everybody round of applause for John for you yeah so great event great event I'm not going to take long we've got we've got lunch outside for that for the people here just a couple of things just call to action right so we saw the Aces you know for those of you out on the stream here become a certified right it's great for your career it's great for not knowledge is is fantastic it's not just an aviatrix thing it's gonna teach you about cloud networking multi-cloud networking with a little bit of aviatrix exactly what the cisco CCIE program was for IP network that type of the thing that's number one second thing is is is is learn right so so there's a there's a link up there for the four to join the community again like I started this this is a community this is the kickoff to this community and it's a movement so go to what a v8 community a bh6 comm was starting a community at multi cloud so you know get get trained learn I'd say the next thing is we're doing over a hundred seminars in across the United States and also starting into Europe soon will come out and will actually spend a couple hours and talk about architecture and talk about those beginning things for those of you on the you know on the livestream in here as well you know we're coming to a city near you go to one of those events it's a great way to network with other people that are in the industry as well as start to learn and get on that multi-cloud journey and then I'd say the last thing is you know we haven't talked a lot about what aviatrix does here and that's intentional we want you you know leaving with wanting to know more and schedule get with us in schedule a multi our architecture workshop session so we we sit out with customers and we talk about where they're at in that journey and more important where they're going and to find that end state architecture from networking compute storage everything and everything you heard today every panel kept talking about architecture talking about operations those are the types of things that we saw we help you cook define that canonical architecture that system architecture that's yours so for so many of our customers they have three by five plotted lucid charts architecture drawings and it's the customer name slash aviatrix arc network architecture and they put it on their whiteboard that's what what we and that's the most valuable thing they get from us so this becomes their 20-year network architecture drawing that they don't do anything without talking to us and look at that architecture that's what we do in these multi hour workshop sessions with customers and that's super super powerful so if you're interested definitely call us and let's schedule that with our team so anyway I just want to thank everybody on the livestream thank everybody here hopefully it was it was very useful I think it was and joined the movement and for those of you here join us for lunch and thank you very much [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] you

>> from Austin, Texas. It's Theo Cube, covering pure storage. Accelerate 2019. Brought to you by pure storage. >> Welcome back to the Cube. Lisa Martin Day Volante is my co host were a pure accelerate 2019 in Austin, Texas. A couple of guests joining us. Next. Please welcome Barack elected director product management for slunk. Welcome back to the Cube. Thank you. And guess who's back. Von Stewart. V. P. A. Technology from pure Avon. Welcome back. >> Hey, thanks for having us guys really excited about this topic. >> We are too. All right, so But we'll start with you. Since you're so excited in your nice orange pocket square is peeking out of your jacket there. Talk about the Splunk, your relationship. Long relationship, new offerings, joint value. What's going on? >> Great set up. So Splunk impure have had a long relationship around accelerating customers analytics The speed at which they can get their questions answered the rate at which they could ingest data right to build just more sources. Look at more data, get faster time to take action. However, I shouldn't be leading this conversation because Split Split has released a new architecture, a significant evolution if you will from the traditional Splunk architectural was built off of Daz and a shared nothing architecture. Leveraging replicas, right? Very similar what you'd have with, like, say, in H D. F s Work it load or H c. I. For those who aren't in the analytic space, they've released the new architecture that's disaggregated based off of cashing and an object store construct called Smart Store, which Broth is the product manager for? >> All right, tell us about that. >> So we release a smart for the future as part of spunk Enterprise. $7 to about a near back back in September Timeframe. Really Genesis or Strong Smart Strong goes back to the key customer problem that we were looking to solve. So one of our customers, they're already ingesting a large volume of data, but the need to retain the data for twice, then one of Peter and in today's architecture, what it required was them to kind of lean nearly scale on the amount of hardware. What we realized it. Sooner or later, all customers are going to run into this issue. But if they want in just more data or reading the data for longer periods, of time, they're going to run into this cost ceiling sooner or later on. The challenge is that into this architecture, today's distributes killer dark picture that we have today, which of all, about 10 years back, with the evolution of the Duke in this particular architecture, the computer and story Jacqui located. And because computer storage acqua located, it allows us to process large volumes of data. But if you look at the demand today, we can see that the demand for storage or placing the demand for computer So these are, too to directly opposite trans that we're seeing in the market space. If you need to basically provide performance at scale, there needs to be a better model. They need a better solution than what we had right now. So that's the reason we basically brought Smart store on denounced availability last September. What's Marceau brings to the table is that a D couples computer and storage, So now you can scale storage independent of computers, so if you need more storage or if you need to read in for longer periods of time, you can just kill independent on the storage and with level age, remote object stores like Bill Flash bid to provide that data depository. But most of your active data said still decides locally on the indexers. So what we did was basically broke the paradigm off computer storage location, and we had a small twist. He said that now the computer stories can be the couple, but you bring comfort and stories closer together only on demand. So that means that when you were running a radio, you know, we're running a search, and whenever the data is being looked for that only when we bring the data together. The other key thing that we do is we have an active data set way ensure that the smart store has ah, very powerful cash manager that allows that ensures that the active data set is always very similar to the time when your laptop, the night when your laptop has active data sets always in the cash always on memory. So very similar to that smarts for cash allows you to have active data set always locally on the index. Start your search performance is not impact. >> Yes, this problem of scaling compute and storage independently. You mentioned H. D. F s you saw it early on there. The hyper converged guys have been trying to solve this problem. Um, some of the database guys like snowflakes have solved it in the cloud. But if I understand correctly, you're doing this on Prem. >> So we're doing this board an on Prem as well as in Cloud. So this smart so feature is already available on tramp were also already using a host all off our spun cloud deployments as well. It's available for customers who want obviously deploy spunk on AWS as well. >> Okay, where do you guys fit in? So we >> fit in with customers anywhere from on the hate say this way. But on the small side, at the hundreds of terabytes up into the tens and hundreds of petabytes side. And that's really just kind of shows the pervasiveness of Splunk both through mid market, all the way up through the through the enterprise, every industry and every vertical. So where we come in relative to smart store is we were a coat co developer, a launch partner. And because our object offering Flash Blade is a high performance object store, we are a little bit different than the rest of the Splunk s story partner ecosystem who have invested in slow more of an archive mode of s tree right, we have always been designed and kind of betting on the future would be based on high performance, large scale object. And so we believe smart store is is a ah, perfect example, if you will, of a modern analytics platform. When you look at the architecture with smart store as brush here with you, you want to suffice a majority of your queries out of cash because the performance difference between reading out a cash that let's say, that's NAND based or envy. Emmy based or obtain, if you will. When you fall, you have to go read a data data out of the Objects store, right. You could have a significant performance. Trade off wean mix significantly minimized that performance drop because you're going to a very high bandwith flash blade. We've done comparison test with other other smart store search results have been published in other vendors, white papers and we show Flash blade. When we run the same benchmark is 80 times faster and so what you can now have without architecture is confidence that should you find yourself in a compliance or regulatory issue, something like Maybe GDP are where you've got 72 hours to notify everyone who's been impacted by a breach. Maybe you've got a cybersecurity case where the average time to find that you've been penetrated occurs 206 days after the event. And now you gotta go dig through your old data illegal discovery, you know, questions around, you know, customer purchases, purchases or credit card payments. Any time where you've got to go back in the history, we're gonna deliver those results and order of magnitude faster than any other object store in the market today. That translates from ours. Today's days, two weeks, and we think that falls into our advantage. Almost two >> orders of magnitude. >> Can this be Flash Player >> at 80%? Sorry, Katie. Time 80 x. Yes, that's what I heard. >> Do you display? Consider what flashlight is doing here. An accelerant of spunk, workloads and customer environment. >> Definitely, because the forward with the smart, strong cash way allow high performance at scale for data that's recites locally in the cash. But now, by using a high performance object store like your flash played. Customers can expect the same high performing board when data is in the cash as well as invented sin. Remorseful >> sparks it. Interesting animal. Um, yeah, you have a point before we >> subjects. Well, I don't want to cut you off. It's OK. So I would say commenting on the performance is just part of the equation when you look at that, UM, common operational activities that a splitting, not a storage team. But a Splunk team has to incur right patch management, whether it's at the Splunk software, maybe the operating system, like linen store windows, that spunk is running on, or any of the other components on side on that platform. Patch Management data Re balancing cause it's unequal. Equally distributed, um, hardware refreshes expansion of the cluster. Maybe you need more computer storage. Those operations in terms of time, whether on smart store versus the classic model, are anywhere from 100 to 1000 times faster with smart store so you could have a deployment that, for example, it takes you two weeks to upgrade all the notes, and it gets done in four hours when it's on Smart store. That is material in terms of your operational costs. >> So I was gonna say, Splunk, we've been watching Splunk for a long time. There's our 10th year of doing the Cube, not our 10th anniversary of our 10th year. I think it will be our ninth year of doing dot com. And so we've seen Splunk emerged very cool company like like pure hip hip vibe to it. And back in the day, we talked about big data. Splunk never used that term, really not widely in its marketing. But then when we started to talk about who's gonna own the big data, that space was a cloud era was gonna be mad. We came back. We said, It's gonna be spunk and that's what's happened. Spunk has become a workload, a variety of workloads that has now permeated the organization, started with log files and security kind of kind of cumbersome. But now it's like everywhere. So I wonder if you could talk to the sort of explosion of Splunk in the workloads and what kind of opportunity this provides for you guys. >> So a very good question here, Right? So what we have seen is that spunk has become the de facto platform for all of one structure data as customers start to realize the value of putting their trying to Splunk on the watch. Your spunk is that this is like a huge differentiate of us. Monk is the read only skim on reed which allows you to basically put all of the data without any structure and ask questions on the flight that allows you to kind of do investigations in real time, be more reactive. What's being proactive? We be more proactive. Was being reactive scaleable platform the skills of large data volumes, highly available platform. All of that are the reason why you're seeing an increase that option. We see the same thing with all other customers as well. They start off with one data source with one use case and then very soon they realize the power of Splunk and they start to add additional use cases in just more and more data sources. >> But this no >> scheme on writer you call scheme on Reed has been so problematic for so many big data practitioners because it just became the state of swamp. >> That didn't >> happen with Splunk. Was that because you had very defined use cases obviously security being one or was it with their architectural considerations as well? >> They just architecture, consideration for security and 90 with the initial use cases, with the fact that the scheme on Reid basically gives open subject possibilities for you. Because there's no structure to the data, you can ask questions on the fly on. You can use that to investigate, to troubleshoot and allies and take remedial actions on what's happening. And now, with our new acquisitions, we have added additional capabilities where we can talk, orchestrate the whole Anto and flow with Phantom, right? So a lot of these acquisitions also helping unable the market. >> So we've been talking about TAM expansion all week. We definitely hit it with Charlie pretty hard. I have. You know, I think it's a really important topic. One of things we haven't hit on is tam expansion through partnerships and that flywheel effect. So how do you see the partners ship with Splunk Just in terms of supporting that tam expansion the next 10 years? >> So, uh, analytics, particularly log and Alex have really taken off for us in the last year. As we put more focus on it, we want to double down on our investments as we go through the end of this year and in the next year with with a focus on Splunk um, a zealous other alliances. We think we are in a unique position because the rollout of smart store right customers are always on a different scale in terms of when they want to adopt a new architecture right. It is a significant decision that they have to make. And so we believe between the combination of flash array for the hot tear and flash played for the cold is a nice way for customers with classic Splunk architecture to modernize their platform. Leverage the benefits of data reduction to drive down some of the cost leverage. The benefits of Flash to increase the rate at which they can ask questions and get answers is a nice stepping stone. And when customers are ready because Flash Blade is one of the few storage platforms in the market at this scale out band with optimized for both NFS and object, they can go through a rolling nondestructive upgrade to smart store, have you no investment protection, and if they can't repurpose that flash rate, they can use peers of service to have the flesh raise the hot today and drop it back off just when they're done within tomorrow. >> And what about C for, you know, big workloads, like like big data workloads. I mean, is that a good fit here? You really need to be more performance oriented. >> So flash Blade is is high bandwith optimization, which really is designed for workload. Like Splunk. Where when you have to do a sparse search, right, we'll find that needle in the haystack question, right? Were you breached? Where were you? Briefed. How were you breached? Go read as much data as possible. You've gotta in just all that data, back to the service as fast as you can. And with beast Cloud blocked, Teresi is really optimized it a tear to form of NAND for that secondary. Maybe transactional data base or virtual machines. >> All right, I want more, and then I'm gonna shut up sick. The signal FX acquisition was very interesting to me for a lot of reasons. One was the cloud. The SAS portion of Splunk was late to that game, but now you're sort of making that transition. You saw Tableau you saw Adobe like rip the band Aid Off and it was somewhat painful. But spunk is it. So I wonder. Any advice that you spend Splunk would have toe von as pure as they make that transition to that sass model. >> So I think definitely, I think it's going to be a challenging one, but I think it's a much needed one in there in the environment that we are in. The key thing is to always because two more focus and I'm sure that you're already our customer focus. But the key is key thing is to make sure that any service is up all the time on make sure that you can provide that up time, which is going to be crucial for beating your customers. Elise. >> That's good. That's good guidance. >> You >> just wanted to cover that for you favor of keeping you date. >> So you gave us some of those really impressive stats In terms of performance. >> They're almost too good to be true. >> Well, what's customer feedback? Let's talk about the real world when you're talking to customers about those numbers. What's the reaction? >> So I don't wanna speak for Broth, so I will say in our engagements within their customer base, while we here, particularly from customers of scale. So the larger the environment, the more aggressive they are to say they will adopt smart store right and on a more aggressive scale than the smaller environments. And it's because the benefits of operating and maintaining the indexer cluster are are so great that they'll actually turn to the stores team and say, This is the new architecture I want. This is a new storage platform and again. So when we're talking about patch management, cluster expansion Harbor Refresh. I mean, you're talking for a large sum. Large installs weeks, not two or 3 10 weeks, 12 weeks on end so it can be. You can reduce that down to a couple of days. It changes your your operational paradigm, your staffing. And so it has got high impact. >> So one of the message that we're hearing from customers is that it's far so they get a significant reduction in the infrastructure spent it almost dropped by 2/3. That's really significant file off our large customers for spending a ton of money on infrastructure, so just dropping that by 2/3 is a significant driver to kind of move too smart. Store this in addition to all the other benefits that get smart store with operational simplicity and the ability that it provides. You >> also have customers because of smart store. They can now actually bursts on demand. And so >> you can think of this and kind of two paradigms, right. Instead of >> having to try to avoid some of the operational pain, right, pre purchase and pre provisional large infrastructure and hope you fill it up. They could do it more of a right sides and kind of grow in increments on demand, whether it's storage or compute. That's something that's net new with smart store um, they can also, if they have ah, significant event occur. They can fire up additional indexer notes and search clusters that can either be bare metal v ems or containers. Right Try to, you know, push the flash, too. It's Max. Once they found the answers that they need gotten through. Whatever the urgent issues, they just deep provisionals assets on demand and return back down to a steady state. So it's very flexible, you know, kind of cloud native, agile platform >> on several guys. I wish we had more time. But thank you so much fun. And Deron, for joining David me on the Cube today and sharing all of the innovation that continues to come from this partnership. >> Great to see you appreciate it >> for Dave Volante. I'm Lisa Martin, and you're watching the Cube?

>> live from New York. It's the Q covering AWS Global Summit 2019 brought to you by Amazon Web service is >> Welcome back. I'm stupid like co host Cory Quinn. And we're here at the end of a summit in New York City, where I'm really happy to welcome to the program first time guests, but somebody that has a nap, it's on my phone. So, Andy thing, who's the CEO of Door Dash, gave a great presentation this morning. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Absolutely happy to be here, guys. >> All right, so, you know, before we dig into the kind of your Amazon stack, bring us back. You talked about 2013. You know, your mission of the company will help empower local businesses. I think most people know, you know, door dash delivery from my local businesses. Whether that is a small place or, you know, chipotle o r like there. And I love little anecdote that you said the founders actually did the first few 100 deliveries, but it gives a little bit of the breath of the scope of the business now. >> Absolutely. I mean, when we started in 2013 you know, we started out of Ah dorm on Stanford campus and, like you said, we're doing the first couple 100 deliveries ourselves. But, you know, fast forwarding to today you were obviously at a much, much different level of scale. And I think one thing that I mentioned about it, Mikey No, a cz just We've been trying to keep up pays and more than doubling as a business every year. And it's a really fascinating industry that were in in the on demand delivery space in particular, I mean, Dara, the CEO of uber himself, said in May, which is a month and 1/2 ago. He said that you know, the food delivery industry may become bigger than a ride hailing industry someday. >> So just just one quick question on kind of food delivery. Because when I think back when I was in college, I worked at a food truck. It was really well known on campus, and there are people that 20 years later they're like stew. I remember you serving me these sandwiches, and I loved it in the community and we gather and we talk today on campus. Nobody goes to that place anymore, you know, maybe I know my delivery person more than I know the person that's making it. So I'm just curious about the relationship between local businesses and the people. How that dynamic changing the gig? Economy? I mean, yeah, you guys were right in the thick of it. No, it's a >> great question. I think. You know, for merchants, a lot of the things that we talk to them about it is you're actually getting access to customers who wouldn't even walk by your store in the first place. And I think that's something that they find to be very captivating. And it shows in the store sales data when they start partnering with the door dash. But we've also tried to building our products to really get customers to interact with the physical neighborhoods. Aaron the most concrete example of that as we launch a product called In Store in Star Pickup Chronic, where you can order online, skip the line and pick up the order yourself in the store, and I think a way we can build the AB experience around that, you know, you're gonna actually start building kind of a geospatial. Browse experience for customers with the door dash app, which means that they can get a little bit more familiarity with what's around them, as opposed to just kind of looking at it on their phones themselves. All right, >> so the logistics of this, you know, are not trivial. You talked about 325% order growth. You know, your database is billions of rose. You know, just the massive scale massive transaction. Therefore, you know, as a you know, your nap on. You know the scale you're at technology is pretty critical to your environment. So burgers inside that a little? >> Yeah. I mean, we're fortunate enough, and you and I are talking before the show. I mean, we're kind of born on the cloud way started off, actually on Roku. Uh, back in 2013 we adopted eight of us back in 2015. And there's just so many different service is that Amazon Web services has been able to provide us and they've added more overtime. I think the one that I talked about, uh was one that actually came out only in early 2018 which is the Aurora Post product. Um, we've been able to sail our databases scale up our analytics infrastructure. We've also used AWS for things like, you know, really time data streaming. They have the cloudwatch product where it gives us a lot of insight into the kind of our servers are behaving. And so the eight of us ecosystem in of itself is kind of evolving, and we feel like we've grown with them and they're growing with us. So it's been a great synergy over the past couple of years >> as you take a look at where you started and where you've wound up. Can you use that to extrapolate a little bit further? As far as what shortcomings you seeing today? That, ideally, would be better met by a cloud provider or at this point is it's such a simpatico relationship is you just alluded to where you just see effectively your continued to grow in the same simple directions just out of, I guess, happenstance. Yeah, it is a >> good question. I think there are some shortcomings. For example, eight of us just recently launched and chaos, which is their in house coffin solution. We're looking for something that's kind of a lot more vetted, right? So we're considering Do we adopt eight of us version or do we try to do it in house, or do we go with 1/3 party vendor? That's >> confidence. Hard to say no to these days. >> Yeah, exactly. And I think, you know, we want to make sure that we are building our infrastructure in a way that way, feel confident in can scale. I mean, with Aurora Post Chris, it's done wonders for us, but we've also kind of been the Pi. One of the pioneers were eight of us for scaling that product, and I think we got kind of lucky in some ways they're in terms of how it's been ableto pan out. But we want to make sure the stakes are a lot higher for us now. And so you know, when we have issues, millions of people face issues, so we want to make sure that we're being more thoughtful about it. Eight of us certainly has matured a lot over the past couple of years, but we're keeping our options open and we want to do what's best for our customers. Eight of us more often than not has a solution, but sometimes we have the you consider other solutions and consider the back that AWS may or may not. So some of the future problems. >> Oh yeah, it's, I think, that it's easy to overlook. Sometimes with something like a food delivery service. It's easy to make jokes about it about what you're too lazy to cook something. And sure, when I was younger, absolutely then I had a child. And when she wasn't going to sleep when she was a baby, I only had one hand. How do I How do I feed myself? There's an accessibility story. People aren't able to easily leave the house, so it's not just people aren't able to get their wings at the right time. This starts becoming impacting for people. It's an important need. >> Yeah, and I think it's been awesome to see just how quickly it's been adopted. And I think another thing about food delivery that you know people don't necessarily remember about today is it was Premier Li, just the very dense urban area phenomenon, like obviously in Manhattan, where we are today who delivers existed forever. But the suburbs is where the vast, vast majority of the growth of the industry has been and you know It's just awesome to see how this case has flourished with all different kinds of people. >> I have to imagine there's a lot of analytics that are going on for some of these. You said. In the rural areas, the suburban areas you've got, it's not as dense. And how do you make sure you optimize for people that are doing so little? So what are some of the challenges you're facing their in house technology helping? >> Exactly? Yeah. I mean, with our kind of a business, it's really important for us again to the lowest level of detail, right? Just cause we're going through 100 25% year on year in 2019 maybe we're growing faster in certain parts of the United States and growing slower and others, and that's definitely the case. And so, uh, one of the awesome things that we've been able to leverage from our cloud infrastructure is just the ability to support riel, time data access and our business operators across Canada. In the United States, they're constantly trying to figure out how are we performing relative to the market in our particular locality, meaning not just, you know, the state of New York. But Manhattan, in which district in Manhattan. Um, all that matters with a business like ours. Where is this? A hyper local economy? And so I think the real time infrastructure, particularly with things like with Aurora the faster up because we're able to actually get a lot of Reed. It's too these red because because it's not affecting our right volume. So that's been really powerful. And it's allowed our business operators to just really run in Sprint. >> So, Andy, I have to imagine just data is one of the most important things of your business. How do you look at that as an asset is their, You know, new things. That new service is that you could be putting out there both for the merchants as well for the customers. Absolutely. I think one of >> the biggest ones we try to do is you know, we never give merchant direct access to the customer data because we want to protect the customer's information, but we do give them inside. That's how they can increase their sales and target customers. I haven't used them before, So one of the biggest programs we launched over the past few years is what we call Try me free so merchants can actually target customers who've never place an order from their store before and offer them a free delivery for their order from that store. So that's a great way for merchants acquire new customers. And it's simple concept for them to understand. And over time we definitely want to be able to personalize the ability to target the sort of promotions on. So we have a lot of data to do that on. We also have data in terms of what customers like what they don't like in terms of their order behavior in terms of how they're raiding the food, the restaurant. So that kind of dynamic is something that is pretty interesting Data set for us to have. You know, you look at a other local companies out there like Yelp, Google Maps. They don't actually have verified transaction information, whereas we d'oh. So I think it's really powerful. Merchants actually have that make decisions. >> It's a terrific customer experience. It almost seems to some extent to be aligned with the Amazons Professor customer obsession leadership principle to some extent, and the reason I bring that up is you mentioned you started on Hiroko and then in 2015 migrated off to AWS. Was it a difficult decision for you to decide first to eventually go all in on a single provider? And secondly, to pick AWS as that provider It wasn't >> a hard decision for us to go to. Ah, no cloud provider. That was, you know, ready to like showtime. It's a hero is more of a student project kind of scale at that time. I don't know what they're doing today. Um, but I think a doubt us at the time was still very, very dominant and that we're considering Azure and G C P. I think was kind of becoming a thing back then made of us. It was always the most mature, and they've done a great job of keeping their lead in this space. Uh, Google, an azure have cropped up. Obviously, Oracle clouds coming up Thio and were considered I mean, we consider the capabilities of something like Google Cloud their machine. Learning soft service is a really powerful. They actually have really sophisticated, probably more so than a W s kubernetes service is actually more sophisticated. I guess it's built in house at Google. That makes sense. But, you know, we've considered landscape out there, but AWS has served a lot of our knees up to this point. Um, and I think it's gonna be a very dynamic industry with the cloud space. And there's so much at stake for all these different companies. It's fascinating to just be a part of it and kind of leverage. It >> s o nd I'm guessing, you know, when you look at some of your peers out there and you know, when a company files in s one and every goes, Oh, my God, Look at their cloud, Bill. You know, how do you look at that balance? You send your keynote this morning. You know, you like less than a handful of engineers working on the data infrastructure. So you know that line Item of cloud you know, I'm guessing is nontrivial from your standpoint. So how do you look at that? Internally is how do you make sure you keep control and keep flexibility and your options Yet focus on your core business and you know not, you know, that the infrastructure piece >> of it that was such a great question, because it's something that way we think about that trade off a lot. Obviously. In the early days, what really mattered ultimately is Do we have product market bid? Do we have? Do we have something that people will care about? Right. So optimizing around costs obviously was not prudent earlier on. Now we're in a such a large scale, and obviously the bills very big, uh, that, you know, optimizing the cost is very real thing, um, and part of what keeps, you know, satisfied with staying on one provider is kind of a piece of set up. And what you already have figured there? Um and we don optimization is over the years wear folks on financing now who basically looking at Hey, where are areas were being extremely inefficient. Where are areas that we could do? Bookspan, this is not just on AWS with is on all our vendors. Obviously eight of us is one of our biggest. I'm not the biggest line item there. Um, and we just kind of take it from there, and there's always trade offs you have to make. But I know there's companies out there that are trying to sell the value proposition of being ableto optimize your cloud span, and that is definitely something that there's a lot of. I'm sure there's a lot of places to cut costs in that we don't know about. And so, yeah, I think that's something that way we're being mindful of. >> Yeah, it's a challenge to you See across the board is that there's a lot of things you can do programmatically with a blind assessment of the bill. But without business inside, it becomes increasingly challenging. And you spoke to it yourself. Where you're not going to succeed or fail is a business because the bill winds up getting too high. Unless you're doing something egregious, it's a question of growth. It's about ramping, and you're not gonna be able to cost optimize your way to your next milestone unless something is very strange with your business. So focusing on it in due course is almost always the right answer. >> Yeah, I mean, when I think about increasing revenue or deep recent costs nine times out of 10 we're trying to provide more value, right, so increasing revenues, usually they go to option for us, but they're sometimes where it's obvious. Hey, there's a low hanging fruit and cutting costs, and if it's relatively straightforward to do, then let's do it. I think with all the cloud infrastructure that we've been able to build on top of, we've been able to focus a lot of our energy and efforts on innovating, building new things, cementing our industry position. And, yeah, I think it's been awesome. On top >> of what? Want to give you the final word? Any addressing insights in your business? You know, it's like I like food and I like eating out and, you know, it feels like, you know, we've kind of flatten the world in lot is like, You know, I think it was like, uh, like, 556 years ago. The first time I went white and I got addressed to Pok. Everybody in California knows, okay, but I live on the East Coast now. I've got, like, three places within half an hour of me that I could get it. So you know those kind of things. What insight to you seeing you know what's changing in the marketplace? What? What's exciting you these >> days? Yeah, I mean, for us, we've definitely seen phenomenon where different food trans kind of percolate across different areas. I'm going to start in one region and then spread out across the entire United States or even Canada. I would say I don't way try to have as much emergence election on a platform. It's possible so that no matter what the new hot hottest trend is that more likely than not, we're gonna have what you want on the platform. And I think what's really exciting to us over the next couple years is you know, last year we actually started way started satisfying grocery delivery. So, uh, in fact, we power a lot of grocery deliveries for Walmart today, which is exciting, and a lot of other grocers lined up as well. We're gonna see how far we can take our logistics capabilities from that standpoint, But really, we want to want to have as many options as possible for our customers. >> Anything. Thanks so much for joining us. Congressional Congratulations on the progress with your death for Cory Quinn. I'm stupid and we'll be back here with more coverage from eight of US summit in New York City. 2019. Thanks is always watching. Cute

>> live from Washington D. C. It's the Cube covering aws public sector summit DC brought to you by Amazon Web services. >> Welcome back, everyone to the cubes Live >> coverage of a ws public sector summit here in Washington D. C. I'm your >> host Rebecca Night, along with my co host, John >> Furrier. We're here with Cory Quinn, Cloud Economist The Duck Billed group and a cube host at large. Welcome. Welcome to our show. A medium >> at best, most days. But we'll see what happens when ever expanding. Someday I'll be a 10 x engineer, but not today. >> Right? Right. Exactly. >> Next host. Exactly. >> There we go, >> Cloud. Stand up on the side. We need to mention that >> Yes, generally more cloud improv. But no one believes that. It's off the cuff. So we smile, we nod, we roll with Tio. Yeah, no one wants to hear me sing in any form. >> I promise. Strapping So, Cory, you have been here. You are on the ground having great conversations with people here. 18,000 people at this summit Give us give our viewers a low down on the vibe. The energy What? What do you hear? Very different >> feeling in the commercial summits you're seeing. People are focusing on different parts of the story, and one thing I find amusing is talking to people who work in the public sector. Show up in their first response is, Oh, I'm so behind and then you go to the commercial summit. You talk to people who are doing bleeding edge things, and their response is, Oh, I'm so behind and everyone thinks that they're falling behind the curve and I'm >> not sure how >> much of that is a part of people just watching a technology. Events outpace them versus the ever increasing feature velocity. If they show on slide year over year over year, consistent growth and people feel like they're being left in the dust, it's it's overwhelming. It's drinking from a fire hose. And I don't think that that gets any easier when you're talking to someone in public sector where things generally move in longer planning cycles because they definitional have to, and I'd argue should, >> but you should help them, make them feel better and say, Don't worry. The private sector feels the same way. Not just everyone >> has these problems. That's that's the poor little challenge of this is everyone believes that if you go to the one magic company, their environment is going to be wonderful. They're adopting everything. It doesn't exist. I've gone into all of the typical tech companies you would expect and talk to people. And everyone wants you for three or four drinks into them, gets very honest and starts crying. What would its higher fire their own environment is? It says a lot of conference. We're going around. Here's how we built this amazing thing as a proof of concept is what the part they don't say or for this one small, constrained application. People are trying to solve business problems, not build perfect architecture. And that's okay. >> Yeah, process. They're not. They're not businesses, their agencies. As you said, they're like, slow as molasses when it comes to moving speed. And you could even see Andy Jazzy during his fireside Shep. He's already studying, laying the groundwork. Well, >> once you're in the >> cloud, here's how you know the adoption level so you can see that it's land not landing expand like the enterprise, which is still slow. It's land, get the adoption and then expand, So the public sector clearly has a lot of red tape. I mean, no doubt about it. >> That means anyone who'd argue that point >> chairman's like 1985. It's like, you know, hot tub time machine, you know, nightmare. But Andy Jazz, he also says on differently to heavy lifting is what they want to automate away. That's the dream. That's the That's the goal. Absolute. It's hard. This is the real challenge. Is getting the public sector adopted getting the adoption, your thoughts when what you're hearing people are they jumping in? They put a toe in the water, kicking the tires. As Andy said, >> all of the above and more. I think it's a very broad spectrum and they mentioned there. I think they were 28,000 or 12,000 non profit organizations that they wind up working with as customers and they all tend to have different velocities across the board as they go down that path. I think that the idea that there's one speed or you can even draw a quick to line summary of all the public sector is a bit of a Basile explanation. I see customers are sometimes constrained by planning cycles. There's always the policies and political aspects of things where if you wind up trying to speed things up, you're talking to some people who will not have a job. If you remove the undifferentiated heavy lifting because that's been their entire career, we're going to help you cut waste out of your budget. Well, that's a hard sell to someone who is incentivized based upon the size of the budget that they control it. You wind up with misaligned incentives, and it's a strange environment. But the same thing that I'm seeing across the corporate space is also happening in public sector. We're seeing people who are relatively concerned about where they're going to hire people from what those people look like, how they're going to transform their own organizations. Digital transformations, attired term. >> And it's like you have rosy colored glasses on too much. You're gonna miss the big picture. You gotta have a little bit of skepticism. I think to me governments always had that problem where I'm just gonna give up. I'm telling different. I can't get the outcome I want, because why even try? Right? I think now, with cloud what I hear Jazzy and Amazon saying is. Hey, at least you get some clear visibility on the first position of value, so there's some hope there, right? So I think that's why I'm seeing this adoption focus, because it's like they're getting the customers. For instance, like I'm a university. I could be a professor, but my credit card down my university customer, I got a couple instances of PC to so ding and another one to the 28,000 >> exactly number of customers is always a strange >> skeptical there. But now, for the first time, you, Khun got should go to a team saying, Hey, you know all that B s about not get the job done, you can get it with clouds. So it's gettable. Now it's attainable. It's not just aspirations. >> Movers really will make the difference. In the end, with the university customer's question, the people who were in that swing >> the tide can that be a generational shift, a deb ops mindset in government? That's a big question. >> Well, they have some advantages. For example, we took a look at all the Gulf cloud announcements and the keynote yesterday, and that must have been a super easy keynote to put together because they're just using the traditional Kino slides and reinvent 2014 because it takes time to get things certified as they moved through the entire pipeline process. And there's nothing inherently wrong with that. But the services that are going into come cloud or things that are tried and tested in a lot of other environments. There's an entire community out there. There's an established body of knowledge. So a lot of the path that government is walking down has already been from a technical perspective paid for them. >> I want to riff on an idea on to make a proposal with you here in real time. You're I think what we should do is make a proposal to the U. S. Government that we basically take equity in the agencies and then take them public. >> That's not a bad idea, absolutely not about commercialized. >> The entities create a stock option program, Cory, because listen, if I'm if I'm a talent, why would I gotta work for an agency when I could make three times Mohr get public and be rich, and that's the problem with talent. You walk around the expo for here. The booths are much smaller, and I didn't understand that at first, and then it clicked for me. If you want to sell services to government, you don't buy a bigger booth. You buy a Congress person and it turns out those air less expensive. That's how acquisitions tend to work in this space. So folks walking around or not, generally going to be the customers that buy things. People walking around in many cases are the talent and looking for more talent. And it does become extremely compelling to have those people leave public sector and go into private sector. In some cases where we'll pay you three times more and added bonus most days, this is America. After all, no one's shooting at you, so that does your >> cloud. Economists were kind of joking about your title, but if you think about it, there are economics involved. It's lower cost, faster, time to value. But what we're getting at is an incentive system. So you think fiscal monetary policy of incentives. So you know, Rebecca, this this This is the challenge that the policy guys gotta figure because the mechanisms to get stuff done is by the politicians or do this or do that. We're getting at something, really, to the heart of human beings, that mission of the mission of the agency or objective they're doing for the labor of love or money? Yes, Reed, why not create an incentive system that compensate? >> You think That's incentive system for taxpayers, though, too, in the sense of >> if I can see the trillions of dollars on the >> budget, a lot of what >> governments do shouldn't necessarily be for sale. I think the idea of citizen versus customer tends to be a very wide divergence, and I generally pushback on issues to attempt, I guess, convinced those into the same thing. It's you wind up with a very striated, almost an aristocracy Socratic society. >> I don't think that tends >> to lead anywhere. Good way. Everyone is getting political today for some reason. >> Well, I >> mean fireside chat to digital >> transformations. People process technology. You can superimpose that onto any environment where those public policy or whatever or national governments, the people, his issues there, processes, issues, technologies is each of one of them have their own challenge. Your thoughts on public sectors challenges opportunities. Four people process technology. >> You have to be mission driven for starters in order to get the people involved. As far as the processes go, there are inherently going to be limitations sometimes and easily observable in the form of different regulatory regimes that apply to these different workloads. And when we talk about the technology well, we're already seeing that that is becoming less of a gap over time. What used to be that o on ly we can secure a data center well enough from a physical security standpoint, there's a quote from the CIA that said on its worst day that cloud was cloud. Security was better than any on premises environment that they could build. And there's something to be said for that. Their economies of scale of like by >> the tech gaps going away. Almost zero yes. So if that OK, text, good check training fault of the people side. Absolute awareness competency processes a red tape automation opportunity. That could be. >> But this is also not to assume that the commercial world has unlock either. Where does the next generation come from? You talk to most senior cloud folks these days and most of us tend to have come up from working help desks being grumpy, you nexus in men's or you nexus movement because it's not like there's a second kind of those and we go up through a certain progression. Well, those jobs aren't there anymore. They've been automated away. The road that we walked is largely closed. Where does the next generation come from? I don't have a great answer. >> Talent question is a huge one. This is going to be the difference. Rebecca. We were riffing on this on our opening. >> It's the only one. >> Your thoughts. I mean, were you even hearing all this stuff and you've been researching this? What? Your thoughts. >> I think that we need to think more. I think tech companies need to think more broadly about where they're going to get this next generation of people, and they don't need to necessarily be people who have studied CS in school. Although, of course we need those people too. >> But the people with the bright, the creative, the expansive world views who are thinking about these problems and can learn >> the tech, I mean the tough guy, you know why >> block change you into a nice CEO and everyone gets >> rich, but I think when Jessie was saying today during his fireside, in the sense of we need to make sure that we're building tools, that >> you don't need to be a machine learning expert to deploy, you know we need to make simpler, more intuitive tools, and then that's really important here. >> Amazon does well in that environment about incentives. >> I think that >> one thing that the public sector offers that you don't often see in the venture start of world or corporate America or corporate anywhere, for that matter, is the ability to move beyond next quarter, planning the ability to look at long term projects like What >> does >> it take to wind up causing significant change across the world? Where is it take to build international space Station? You're not gonna be able to ship those things 180 days, no matter how efficiently you build things. And I think that the incentives and as you build them, have to start aligning with that. Otherwise you wind up with government trying to compete on compensation with the private sector. I don't think that works. I think you may have an opportunity to structure alignments around sentence in a very different life. >> It's an open item on the compensation. Until they agree, we'll watch. It was ideas. We'll see what tracks. But to me, in my opinion, what I think's gonna be killer for game game one here. This of this revolution is the people that come out of the woodwork because cloud attracts attract smart people and smart people are leaning into the government with cloud. It was the other way around before the cloud people, I don't want to get involved in government, and that was a big ding on government attracting qualified people. So I think Cloud is going to attract some smart people that want to help for the purpose and mission of whatever the outcome of that political or agency or government initiative with a cyber security there. People will care about this stuff who want the social equity not so much, >> Yeah, I think that's >> going to be a wild card. I think we're going to see like a new might in migration of talented people coming into quote assist government. That's a work for government to figure out how to be better at whatever the competition is and that is going to be I think the first lever of you start to see new names emerge. This person who just changed the organization over here become a hero Dev Ops mindset being applied to new environments. >> And we've seen that to some extent with the U. S. Digital service with 18 half where you have industry leaders from the commercial side moving into public sector and working in government for a time and then matriculating back into the public sector and the private sector, I think that there winds up being a lot of opportunity for more programs like that of scaling this stuff out >> and career change and career passer tissue. And there is this more fluid iti. As you're saying, >> I think that money isn't everything. You know. There's a lot of research that shows up to a certain threshold of income. You >> don't get that much happier. I don't know if Jeff >> basis is that much happier than us. I mean, >> we live in a little more bank and say, you know, >> you see the other side of it, too, is you build all these things together where you have okay. What? >> What is it >> that moves people? What do they care about. It's not just money, and I think that the old styled the old are very strict hierarchy within organizations where things are decided by tenure. Service is a bit of a problem if you have someone who works for. The EPA has been doing a deep dive cloud work for 10 years. There's nothing specific to the EPA about what that person has mastered. They shouldn't be able to laterally transition into the FDA, for example, >> Jackson Fireside Chat, Those interesting point about the fire phone that they talked about. And this is the transfer ability of skill sets and you getting at the thing that I will notice is that with Cloud attracts this interdisciplinary skill sets so you don't have to be just a coder. You khun, note how code works and be an architect, or you could be a change agent some somewhere else in an organization. So that's >> going to >> be interesting. That's not necessarily what how governments have always been siloed right? So can can these silos can these old ways of doing things. This is the question. This is why it's fun to cover this market. >> We're already >> seeing that in the public sector were being able to write code is rapidly transitioning into a very being very similar to I can speak French. Great. That's not a career in and of itself. That's a skill sad that unlocks of different right. A different career paths forward, but it doesn't wind up saving anything. It doesn't want a preserving its own modern aristocracy path forward or >> use the building an example. I don't have to learn how to pour concrete organ, right? The blueprints. Yes. So as we start getting into these systems conversations, you're going to start to see these different skill sets involved. Huge opportunity. If >> you're in >> school today and you're studying computer science, great learned something else, too, because the intersection between that and other spaces are where the knish opportunities are. That's the skill set of the future. That's where you're going to start seeing opportunities. Do not just succeed personally, but start to change the world. >> But Cory Great. Thanks for coming on and make an appearance and sharing what you found on the hallways. Good to see you. Coop con in Europe. Thanks for holding down the fort there. >> Of course I appreciate it. It was an absolute Bonner. >> Excellent. Great. Well, thank you so much. Thank >> you. I'm Rebecca Knight for John Furrier. Stay tuned. You are watching the Cube.

>> from San Francisco. It's the Cube covering the M Wear Radio twenty nineteen brought to you by the M where >> welcome to Special Cube conversation here in San Francisco for PM wears radio event there. Top engineers air here for once a year Get together and show in the best stuff road map to get to great guests. Here we got Mike Petrillo is the senior director of Blockchain of'em were here where their journey is, where they come from and gone to today where they are up to and for Team A Gluckman Engineering leader Blockchain engine both with GM Where great to see you guys. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate spending the time My favorite topic block Jane our favorite topic to thanks for joining me. So, Mike, let's start with you. Take a street where you guys are now Because we talked about a year ago. Just getting the putting the team together. You were here last year radio kind of getting some core mo mentum. Where have you guys come from? And where are you now? Yeah, >> it's been quite a journey. You know, over the past five years, we've been doing a lot of research that research culminated in an open source project called Project Concorde that we announced last year. Then we wrapped some commercial offerings around it around really the operational side. How do you operate a blockchain at scale in an enterprise setting we introduced? That is Veum wear Blockchain. It's a very descriptive on the naming, and it really focuses on three core things. Enterprise grade, decentralized trust, not distributed trust but really decentralized trust. So being able to deploy it across multiple different cloud environments as well as on prim, it concentrates on robust Day two operations. How do you operate it at scale in an enterprise setting? How do you deal with stuff like GDP are the right to be forgotten? You know, data sovereignty issues, things like that, which is much different than other block Janes. And then the third thing is really being developer friendly. Last year we were fully Ethereum compatible. We had the Ethereum language sitting on top of our block chain. Since then, we've added support for Djamel from digital asset. So another language and we're adding more and more languages so the developers can develop in the framework that they're used to on the best scaleable. You know, Enterprise Supporter >> brings him Dev Ops Mojo Concepts to blockchain. Absolutely, absolutely somewhat. The demo you guys did you get on stage? I want to get too, because it's a really use case. So again, rnd concept jewel years of research started putting together making some progress on developer. So the solutions that you guys presented, we really take us through that. >> So the ocean plastics demo that we talked about a radio basically solves this problem or, you know, just the plastics polluted, polluting our oceans today. So if you look at the numbers are staggering and the BP that you actually a consume, you know, in fish it's pretty scary. The other thing is, you know, it's been predicted that we'll have mohr plastic in our oceans than fish by twenty fifty. And one of the things Dell is trying to do is clean up the environment, and they're building these reusable trays or packaging material for their Dell laptops. And so this use case was providing them that functionality. And if you look at del they you know, they have a massive supply chain. They've got hundreds and thousands of renders that you know, they use despite systems that don't actually talk to each other, they've got complicated work flows. There's also a lot off corruption in their supply chain. And one of the things that can really solve a lot of those problems is bmr blockchain. And they have an instance running on our service, which runs on VM CNW s and I walked through the devil of just going through an aggregator to getting to a manufacturer and then assembling these laptops with the trays and shipping them off to >> think this was something we covered. A del technology world. I just wanna point out for the folks watching Dell's taking recycled material from the ocean, using it as materials into their laptops as a part of sustainability. Great business. You know, Malcolm for del the supply chain pieces. Interesting. So you guys are using blockchain and track the acquisition of the plastic out of the ocean? >> Yes. To manufacturing and to end >> Yes. In tow? Yes. >> Using of'em were blocking. >> Yes. So who coded >> this up? It was actually >> del Del developers coded it up. So they quoted up. They took two weeks to code it. We had absolutely no support issues that came away, which really talks about these. A fuse of our platform. And, you know, just the applications that running. >> How does someone get involved real quick at the plug for they have someone joins the bm where? Blockchain initiative? Yes, Via more block >> change. That's ah, manage service offering from us. So it's a license, you know, product. If they're interested, they can go to the inn where dot com slash blockchain or emails? The blockchain dash info beyond where dotcom get it signed up on the beta. We have an active beta. We have lots of enterprise customers all around the planet using it today. You know, at scale >> is a free servicers are licensed paid license. >> There will >> be a paid license for it. You know, we're invader right now, so it is free, right? >> I get it. But we're gonna get you in the snow. So it is. It is a licence service. Yeah, It's Amanda's >> service offering on. That's you know, the beauty of it is that you don't have to worry about updating it, you know, keeping the nose live anything like that. We don't see the transactional data. We don't manage the nodes or anything like that. But we deploy and keep him updated. Keeping refresh. >> You know, one of the benefits Ray Farrell's on. Just how about the ape revolution? How I change the world with the Internet and the web that blockchain has that same kind of inflection point impact you mentioned GDP are that implies, Reed. You know, changing the the values on the block chain will dwell in the Ganges is immutable. How do you handle that? Because if it's already immutable on encrypted, how does Tootie pr work? >> Yeah, just doesn't take >> care of you. Why wait? If it's encrypted, no one can see it. >> Yeah, well, you know, block chains, not about encrypting the data, right? There are some block change that do encrypted data. People get confused because they associated the cryptography with it, which links the blocks together. But the data in there is still visible. Right? We're working on privacy solutions to make privacy per transaction. We're working on GDP our issues right now, because that is an issue. When you get into a regulated environment, which there isn't really a non regulated environment these days. You have to worry about these things. You know, Blockchain gives you a mutability and that gives you to trust. But really, Blockchain is about trust. It's about this decentralized trust. And when you think about it in that context, you say, Well, if I trust that I want to be able to delete that data and we reach consensus on it and we still maintain the order, right, the proper order of the bits, which is really what Blockchain is doing, is giving you trust on that order. Bits and I agree, is a consensus to delete one of those pieces out of the order bit, and we can still maintain trust of the order bits. And that's fine. Now I can't get into details on this engineering secret sauce. >> I. So one of the things I want to ask >> you guys just engineers, because I think this is one of the things that I see is that Blockchain is attractive. There's a lot of unknowns that coming down the pike, but we do know one thing. It's a distributed, decentralized kind of concept that people like it. I see a new generation of attracted the blockchain new generation of entrepreneurs, a new generation of young people, engineers who see use cases that others from old school industry might not. So you start to see. I won't say it's the hipster or cutting edge. It's just that it's attracting this kind of new generation developer for engineer. >> Why do you >> think that's the case? Why, and and is that right assumption to look at? Because, you know, when asked his blockchain, certainly state of the art. Yeah, it's not as fast as a database of I wanted to do something. Technically, that's like saying the Internet dial up was bad. But what happened after? So you know, a lot of people making these arguments, But I see it definitely resonating with young people. Yes, look at Facebook who tried looking blockchain and moving their entire a broken system. Teo blocked, Jammed. Try to fix that so you can feel these indicators. What's your thoughts? >> I think >> part of it. And I definitely saw this, you know, last Friday and Saturday, I was eighty three up in New York City, right, and it was very much that hipster crowd, and I was really attached to the crypto currency phase. Cryptocurrency allowed individuals to make investments. You know, the kind of millennials to make investments. They didn't have to go to a e trade or they didn't have to go to some broker. It wasn't caught up in anything. They could, you know, make these bets. And now they can build applications that are directly attached to that currency. They can make up their own currency. They can make up their own value system. You know, you've done some of that with a cube, right? We've launched an application that provides value around the content and token eyes. Is that value? And now it can transfer that value So it opens up the transfer of that value, the trust of that value. And I think, you know, we're in a generation of trust and transparency. That's what's powering the world right now is about trust and transparency, and that's what Blockchain gives you, gives you trust in the system that no one person or no one government owns, and >> I really like that. >> But one thing important is I mean, we just have to demystify this like we just have to say, This is not about Cryptocurrency. That's one thing, and what I am is doing is enterprise blockchain and, you know, and Mike, you've talked about this. You always say, you know, black jeans, not going toe, you know, save the world or, you know it's not going to get rid of poverty. But there's four use cases that we've drilled down to in the supply chain realm, and there's the financial services. And so those are some of the things we're tackling, and I think it's important to like talk about that. And, you know, there's these hipsters every time we go and talk anything with regarding the blockchain, we know a big chunk of people, therefore Cryptocurrency and apparently at consensus in New York, they reduce their audience from I can't remember the numbers. When >> I was >> in the two thousand >> last year were about House kicked out all the crypto >> currency people, and so it's important to make that distinction. >> I think the crypto winter probably hurt them more than taking up, because last year there was a lot of hype there, but I think the bubble was already burst around February last year. But this piece of the good point is something that we've been kind of covering on silicon angle. The Cube is there's infrastructure dynamic. The engineering goodness. I think that certainly is intoxicating to think about Blockchain as an impact. Engineering wise, the token conversation brings up utility, the decentralized crypto currency, the icy, his initial coin offerings. The fraud part or regulated part has caused a lot of problems. So to me, well, I tell people was looking the CEO kind of scams and fraud kind of put a shadow on token economics. And Blockchain is a technology so supply chain no doubt is great. Blockchain. That's where you guys are focused. That's what the enterprise want. Way start getting into tokens. Tokens is a form of measurement. Uh huh. And that's where I think the regulators to do your point earlier is it's caused a lot of problems. So you know, the says if you got a utility token and you're selling >> it, it's Zane exchanges, not kill each other. So that's you're >> called. A lot of it would call those app developers. >> Yeah, but the up developers were still out there, right? And what's nice is these app developers that are on the side building these unique little applications. They still end up working for these larger companies and driving interesting solutions through like we're doing with supply chain like we're doing financial services like what we're doing in Telco and Media. You look at the people that we're dealing with in these companies. They came from building those applications. Heck, some of our own product managers came from building unique things mining rigs and mining companies. So you still have that background. They still have that entrepreneurial, you know, asset. And that's what's changing these cos they're driving change these companies saying, Hey, look, we can use the blockchain for this really unique thing that opens up a brand new business line, you know, for this large corporation, >> you know, I showed you our check preview. We did a quick preview of'Em World last year with our block changing me with a cube coin token, kind of total experimental thing. And it was interesting time because I think you hit the nail on the head. We as entrepreneurial developers. I had this great application we want to do for the Cube community, but we were stalled by the you know, the crypto winter, and you know, we're Apple developers, so there's many use cases of such scenarios like that. That's kind of people are kind of halfway between a Z A B. What's your advice toe to us, or folks like us who were out there who want to get the project back on track? What what what should we and application will do? They should they free focus on the infrastructure peace? What's your advice for the marketplace? >> It's so early, it's It's so early to actually really comment on that. I mean, I would say Just keep at it because you never know. It's I feel like we're so early in the game that though we can solve world hunger, there's so many use cases and applications that come out of it and we just have to keep going. And I think the developer community is what's going to make this successful, you know, and even emerging standards. I think that's one thing is standards across, You know, these block chains like we don't have that right now, and that's something we really need to need to do. And >> I don't know we program in Ethereum. >> So the question is, is that a bad choice is a lot of cognitive dissonance around with the right to. >> That's what I was just going to bring up is that >> you know, you brought up the point of your an app developer and you become stalled, you know, in your project. And we see that exactly same thing happening in the enterprise. We go into account after account where they've chosen some block change solution that's out there and to become what I call a stalled pioneer. They've gone through. They develop that application. But they either hit a scale, ability issue and then, you know, throughput or the number of nodes. They hit an operations thing. You know, operations comes in and says, Whoa, how are you going to do an audit on that thing? What about data Sovereign? What about GPR? What about this one? How are we? My God, you're gonna operate it inside of my environment? You know, what's the security side? So it's really round scale ability. It's around operations. It's around security. Those are three things we hit on over and over and over again with the stalled pioneers. So those of the accounts that we go into and rescue them essentially right, we say we can provide you the scale. We can provide you the through, but we can provide you the operations. For twenty years, the Empire has been taking large, complex distributed systems and making you operate them at scale in an enterprise setting. Where the experts at it So we're doing that would block chain now and allowing your blockchain projects to succeed and >> really find that term. Yep. Yeah. Okay, So, radio. What's the feedback here? Obviously got. Got the demo. What's been some of the peer review Give us the the four one one on peer review here. People liking what's going on? >> I think the demo really talk to people. It was relatable. You're a There was a social good a demo. I think it really impacted them. Um, but some of the cool stuff we're doing is also like in the financial services side. You know, we've got Mohr interesting stuff on the supply chain, so the feedbacks been great. Ah, lot of focuses on VM are blockchain, which is also cool. We didn't quite have that last year. In radio, we had everyone running off in different directions. So now it's via more blockchain And what Mike talked about installed pioneers is you know, we were seeing scalability throughput on numbers. And, you know, we talked about it at the immoral Barcelona A numbers. They're looking really great. And, you know, we're we're optimizing pushing our platform so we could get to, you know, perhaps the papal numbers rave, and someday visa, >> you have high availability. You guys know scale. Yeah. You happy where you are right now? >> Very happy where we >> are right >> now. I mean, we've got great customers. Great feedback, you know, great solution that solving real world problems. You know, engineers like doing two things shipping code and solving stuff that's going to help the world. At least you're of'em where that's our culture, right? And And we're able to do that day in and day out and the entire block chains the cornerstone to that. That's what makes people happy. >> Mike Protein, We following your journey. Great. Teo, check in Great to hear the progress. Congratulations on the great demo reel Use cases in supply chain. We'LL be following you guys and keep in touch. Thanks for coming on the key. Absolutely. Thank you for >> the time >> chauffeur here with Lisa Martin here in San Francisco for work. You coverage of radio, the top engineering event where they all come together internally with GM, where one of a few press outlets here, the Cube bringing exclusive coverage. Thanks for watching.